[Senate Hearing 118-180]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]


                                                          S. Hrg. 118-180

                    THE U.S. FISH AND WILDLIFE SERVICE'S 
                       PROPOSED FISCAL YEAR 2024 BUDGET

=======================================================================

                                HEARING

                               BEFORE THE
                               
                              COMMITTEE ON
                      ENVIRONMENT AND PUBLIC WORKS

                          UNITED STATES SENATE

                    ONE HUNDRED EIGHTEENTH CONGRESS

                             FIRST SESSION

                               __________

                              MAY 16, 2023

                               __________

  Printed for the use of the Committee on Environment and Public Works
  
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        Available via the World Wide Web: http://www.govinfo.gov
        
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               COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENT AND PUBLIC WORKS

                    ONE HUNDRED EIGHTEENTH CONGRESS

                             FIRST SESSION

                  THOMAS R. CARPER, Delaware, Chairman
          SHELLEY MOORE CAPITO, West Virginia, Ranking Member

BENJAMIN L. CARDIN, Maryland         KEVIN CRAMER, North Dakota
BERNARD SANDERS, Vermont             CYNTHIA M. LUMMIS, Wyoming
SHELDON WHITEHOUSE, Rhode Island     MARKWAYNE MULLIN, Oklahoma
JEFF MERKLEY, Oregon                 PETE RICKETTS, Nebraska
EDWARD J. MARKEY, Massachusetts      JOHN BOOZMAN, Arkansas
DEBBIE STABENOW, Michigan            ROGER WICKER, Mississippi
MARK KELLY, Arizona                  DAN SULLIVAN, Alaska
ALEX PADILLA, California             LINDSEY O. GRAHAM, South Carolina
JOHN FETTERMAN, Pennsylvania

               Courtney Taylor, Democratic Staff Director
               Adam Tomlinson, Republican Staff Director
                           
                           
                           C O N T E N T S

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                                                                   Page

                              MAY 16, 2023
                              
                           OPENING STATEMENTS

Carper, Hon. Thomas R., U.S. Senator from the State of Delaware..     1
Capito, Hon. Shelley Moore, U.S. Senator from the State of West 
  Virginia.......................................................     3

                                WITNESS

Williams, Hon. Martha, Director, U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service, 
  Department of the Interior.....................................     6
    Prepared statement...........................................     8
    Response to an additional question from:
        Senator Carper...........................................    14
        Senator Cramer...........................................    17
    Responses to additional questions from:
        Senator Ricketts.........................................    18
        Senator Boozman..........................................    21
        Senator Sullivan.........................................    25

 
 THE U.S. FISH AND WILDLIFE SERVICE'S PROPOSED FISCAL YEAR 2024 BUDGET

                              ----------                              


                         TUESDAY, MAY 16, 2023

                                       U.S. Senate,
                 Committee on Environment and Public Works,
                                                    Washington, DC.
    The Committee met, pursuant to notice, at 10:17 a.m. in 
room 406, Dirksen Senate Office Building, Hon. Thomas R. Carper 
(Chairman of the Committee) presiding.
    Present: Senators Carper, Capito, Cardin, Whitehouse, 
Kelly, Padilla, Cramer, Lummis, Boozman, Sullivan, and 
Ricketts.

          OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. THOMAS R. CARPER, 
            U.S. SENATOR FROM THE STATE OF DELAWARE

    Senator Carper. Good morning, everyone. I am happy to 
welcome everybody today and call this hearing to order.
    Today, we are here to discuss President Biden's fiscal year 
2024 budget proposal for the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service. To 
help inform our discussion, we again welcome Martha Williams, I 
told her I left my own Martha in Wilmington this morning to 
jump on a train and come down here. She said, where are you 
going? I said, I am going to go listen to another Martha.
    We are happy that you could join us today. Director of the 
Fish and Wildlife Service, before our Committee, Director 
Williams, we thank you for your service, and we thank you for 
joining us today.
    The President's budget request includes just over $2 
billion for the Fish and Wildlife Service, $2 billion. That is 
about an 18 percent increase in funding over 2023 enacted 
levels. This increase would provide much needed resources at a 
time when we are asking the agencies to do more, a lot more, 
especially to permit infrastructure projects efficiently.
    First, as habitat loss and climate change continue to drive 
biodiversity loss in our country and around the world, the 
Service's mission of conserving, protecting, and enhancing our 
Nation's wildlife and habitats has never been more critical. In 
addition, the agency's role in the Federal permitting process 
is especially important given the historic passage of the 
Bipartisan Infrastructure Law, along with the CHIPS and Science 
Act, and the Inflation Reduction Act.
    We know that the resulting investments from these laws are 
already starting to drive a revolution in clean energy 
development, infrastructure improvement, and climate 
adaptation. But as part of its mission and congressionally 
mandated responsibilities, the Service must consult with other 
agencies to ensure that we are deploying these investments, and 
permitting projects, in a way that does not jeopardize species.
    However, neither the Bipartisan Infrastructure Law, which 
we helped write literally in this room, nor the Inflation 
Reduction Act included direct funding for the Service's 
responsibilities related to permitting. So, in other words, 
Congress has increased the number of environmental reviews the 
Service must complete, but has not yet provided the resources 
the Service needs to meet this added workload. I think we have 
an obligation to do something about that, and I hope we will.
    I have heard some of our colleagues raise concerns about 
the Service's Endangered Species Act consultation process 
leading to delays and backlogs in the permitting process. Well, 
lack of agency capacity is a major contributing factor to 
bottlenecks. The President's 2024 budget would provide the 
agency with adequate resources to improve efficiencies in the 
environmental review process, while also protecting species. We 
can do both, and we must do both.
    The President's budget request also includes a $50 million 
increase for planning and consultation activities, which would 
support an additional 225 full time employees for this work. 
With this increase, the Service expects to be able to complete 
more than 280 additional formal consultations and 3,100 
additional informal consultations annually. Make no mistake: 
That will make a real difference.
    Some of our colleagues have also suggested that Congress 
should just consider bypassing the Service's role in 
permitting. But it is my strongly held belief, a belief that I 
think most of the people in our country also share, that we 
have a moral imperative to protect the species with which we 
share our one and only planet.
    What a lot of people might be surprised to learn is that 
preserving biodiversity has clear economic benefits. According 
to a 2022 report by J.P. Morgan, recent biodiversity losses 
have cost up to $20 trillion per year, that is trillion with a 
T, per year in lost ecosystem services. These services include 
protecting our food supplies as well as providing clean air and 
clean water.
    For example, our food production relies on biodiversity for 
pest control, for pollination, and for soil fertility. Healthy 
and biodiverse forests and oceans absorb more carbon dioxide. 
And we all rely on biodiverse ecosystems to provide clean water 
to drink. When we lose biodiversity, nature stops providing 
these precious services.
    While global biodiversity loss presents a real threat to 
our economy and environment, the good news is that our Nation's 
strong environmental laws help preserve biodiversity. The 
President's budget enables the Service to fulfill its 
responsibilities under these laws, which include the Migratory 
Bird Treaty Act, the Lacey Act, and the Endangered Species Act.
    The Service also manages over 850 million acres of lands 
and waters through the National Wildlife Refuge System. Some of 
the most beautiful land and water in America. The fiscal year 
2024 budget would address the major staffing shortage 
experienced across our refuge system over the last decade by 
providing funding for an additional 168 full time employees, 
such as refuge managers, law enforcement, and visitor services 
specialists.
    In Delaware, we are proud of our two national wildlife 
refuges. They are located southeast of Dover, about 50 miles 
away. They are a joy to visit, a real jewel for our country. I 
have an opportunity to visit these refuges quite frequently, 
and in fact, I am looking forward to visiting Prime Hook 
National Refuge next week to see our world famous red knots 
come by for lunch, flying from the southern part of our planet 
all the way up to the North Pole. These tiny birds stop on our 
beaches to feast on horseshoe crab eggs during their famous 
migration journey from the southern tip of South America to the 
tundra of the north Arctic. Bombay Hook and Prime Hook are 
major destinations for birdwatchers from all over the world, 
meaning these destinations support our ecotourism industry in 
Delaware, as well.
    Some people think that just because we have more five star 
beaches than any other State that that is why tourists come to 
Delaware. A lot of people come from all over the world because 
they are interested in birding, including the red knot.
    Both of our wildlife refuges have been short staffed for 
the last couple of years. We need to address this shortfall for 
our refuges in Delaware and frankly, for those refuges that are 
located around the country.
    Let me conclude by saying that when Congress tasks an 
agency with an important mission and an increased workload, we 
must in turn provide sufficient funding so that they can get 
the job done that they are expected to do. The budget we are 
discussing today recognizes this responsibility and the 
opportunity that comes with that responsibility.
    With that, we look forward to hearing more from Director 
Williams today on how the President's 2024 budget would support 
the important work that she oversees at the Fish and Wildlife 
Service.
    Before we hear from you, we look forward to hearing from 
our Ranking Member, Senator Capito, for her comments.
    Senator Capito.

        OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. SHELLEY MOORE CAPITO, 
          U.S. SENATOR FROM THE STATE OF WEST VIRGINIA

    Senator Capito. Thank you, Chairman Carper, and thank you, 
Director Williams for being here. And thank you for the open 
door of communication, and the visit to West Virginia, 
certainly appreciate that.
    We have discussed in previous hearings the frustrations 
that I have had with the delays that consultation under the 
Endangered Species Act has added to projects in West Virginia 
and elsewhere. Our State Department of Transportation has faced 
delays in road and bridge projects. Our Department of 
Environmental Protection has dealt with delays in consultation 
on not only active mining permits, but also on projects to 
remediate our abandoned mine sites through the AML programs.
    Local government officials have come to me to express 
frustration with delays to water and sewer projects. And 
private industry has faced delays due to a backlog of ESA 
consultation requests.
    So you heard many of these concerns from me when you came 
to West Virginia, and when we talked on the phone most 
recently, and I appreciate the fact that you do listen and try 
to make those things better.
    I do want to acknowledge and thank the Elkins Field Office 
for its work on the biological opinions on two major projects 
in West Virginia: The Mountain Valley Pipeline and Nucor's 
sheet steel mill.
    I also want to acknowledge the additional resources that 
you have allotted in reviewing projects in West Virginia 
through creating three new full time positions in the Elkins 
Field Office, and by detailing staff from elsewhere in the 
Service to help address the backlog of project reviews in our 
State.
    However, more work is needed, and the Service must better 
utilize its resources to ensure the projects are reviewed in a 
timely manner. Section 7 consultations under the Endangered 
Species Act are the poster child for project delays and 
bureaucratic roadblocks in the Federal environment review and 
permitting process.
    Fairly or not, other agencies often cite the slow Section 7 
consultations as the justification for not advancing their own 
permitting process. The Administration continues to blame these 
delays solely on a lack of funding and staffing.
    Currently, West Virginia State agencies, the private 
sector, and even other Federal agencies are funding positions 
at the Service's Field Office in Elkins. This feels like West 
Virginians are kind of getting taxed twice to do the same work 
that the Service does.
    We even experience delays with getting the very paperwork 
in place that establishes cooperative agreements for my State's 
agencies to even use the taxpayer dollars to fund staff for the 
Field Office. The West Virginia Department of Highways has been 
funding a position at the Field Office for more than 10 years. 
Let me say that again, 10 years. Even so, the West Virginia DOH 
is willing to fund a second position at the Field Office to 
move consultations for roads and bridges through the process. 
There is a lot of money flowing on these roads and bridges 
projects.
    But unfortunately, the West Virginia DOH has been locked in 
back and forth negotiations with the Field Office for months 
over how to do just that. I do not believe that adding a second 
position with the same duties should take months to negotiate 
after 10 years of experience of working the same kind of 
agreement.
    Additionally, the Process Agreement between West Virginia 
DOH, the Federal Highways, and the Service, which we discussed 
during your visit last August, still has not been finalized 
months later. The backlog of biological assessments and 
consultations seems to never end, and recent species listings 
and rulemaking by the Service don't seem to be helping the 
problem.
    The Service admits that northern long-eared bat populations 
are declining due to effects separate and apart from 
infrastructure projects or economic development activities. One 
of the delayed projects is important to my State, the 
Coalfields Expressway, which recently received a rural grant 
through the IIJA. There are similar stories all across the 
country, and they demonstrate that there is a failure of the 
Federal Government's incoherent policies and implementation.
    Just in the past 2 weeks, the Senate has passed three 
resolutions of disapproval on Fish and Wildlife regulatory 
actions that have significant consequences on landowners and 
project developers. On the one hand, the President has been 
trumpeting the IIJA, and at the same time, the Administration 
is throwing wrench after wrench into the planning and 
construction process for key infrastructure projects.
    The Biden administration's alleged statements of support 
for key infrastructure projects do not match the actions, and 
so that historic investment, the good it can do, and the jobs 
and tax revenues it would support, is withering on the vine. 
The Service must start striking a balance between recovering 
species and protecting American livelihoods.
    With that, Mr. Chair, I turn it back to you.
    Senator Carper. Thank you, ma'am.
    You mentioned Elkins a couple of times in your statement. I 
am thinking a couple of days ago it was Mother's Day, and as 
the Ranking Member knows, my mother and father, their families 
grew up near Beckley, but my mother, the first years of her 
life, lived in Elkins.
    Senator Capito. And Mother's Day was created by a West 
Virginian.
    Senator Carper. It gets better and better.
    Senator Capito. Yes, it just all starts and ends there.
    [Laughter.]
    Senator Carper. That is great. Thanks very much, Senator 
Capito.
    Now we are going to turn to our witness, no stranger to 
this Committee, and a friend to this Committee, and a mother, 
as it turns out, in her own right.
    Martha Williams currently serves our Nation as the Director 
of the Fish and Wildlife Service. Prior to her leadership role 
at the Fish and Wildlife Service, Ms. Williams served as the 
Director of the Montana Department of Fish, Wildlife, and 
Parks.
    How long did you live in Montana?
    Ms. Williams. Over 20 years, Mr. Chairman.
    Senator Carper. Since a child, right?
    All right, I understand you are a lifelong outdoor 
enthusiast, and enjoy hiking, hunting, and fishing. I remember 
you talking with us about those passions when you were here for 
your confirmation hearing.
    Director Williams is also the mother of two wonderful 
children, Kate and Ian. How old are they now?
    Ms. Williams. Twenty and 22. Time flies.
    Senator Carper. Boy, doesn't it though.
    On behalf of our Committee, we want to wish you a happy 
belated Mother's Day, and to Kate and Ian, thank them for 
sharing their mom with us.
    Director Williams, welcome back to the Environment and 
Public Works Committee. It is good to see you. Please proceed 
with your statement when you are ready. Thank you.

  STATEMENT OF HON. MARTHA WILLIAMS, DIRECTOR, U.S. FISH AND 
          WILDLIFE SERVICE, DEPARTMENT OF THE INTERIOR

    Ms. Williams. Good morning, Chairman Carper, Ranking Member 
Capito, and Members of the Committee. Thank you very much for 
the opportunity to testify on the U.S. Fish and Wildlife 
Service's fiscal year 2024 budget request.
    At the Fish and Wildlife Service, we connect people with 
nature. Our mission is working with others to conserve, 
protect, and enhance fish, wildlife, and plants and their 
habitats for the continuing benefit of the American people. 
Today, I will highlight a few of our programs for which we are 
seeking additional support.
    Our greatest asset is our talented and dedicated work 
force. They work hand in hand with our partners, amplifying our 
collective conservation efforts. That is our superpower.
    That cooperative spirit is found across the Service. And 
one example is in our Partners for Fish and Wildlife program. 
Since the program began in 1987, the Service had helped 
landowners restore more than 7 million acres of habitat on 
private lands, leveraging program funding with partner 
contributions at a four to one ratio, and completing over 1,800 
projects this last year alone.
    For fiscal year 2024, the Service is requesting a $19.5 
million increase for this Partners program. These projects not 
only benefit wildlife but also provide benefits to local 
communities through improved drought resistance, water 
conservation, and wildfire resilience.
    The success of our Partners program shows how our 
relationships are central to the Service's conservation 
mission. And this is true across other programs, including the 
Coastal Program, migratory bird joint ventures, our fish 
passage work, and more.
    Collaboration is also key to the progress we are making on 
protecting, recovering, and de-listing species under the 
Endangered Species Act. Hundreds of species are stable, 
recovering, or recovered.
    For example, 3 months ago, in partnership with the 
Department of Defense, we de-listed San Clemente's Bell sparrow 
and four other species. Two months ago, after decades of work 
across the southeast with State and local partners, we 
announced our intention to de-list the wood stork.
    We are requesting an $88.5 million increase for our 
Ecological Services Program to build on our successes and help 
recover species by bringing them back to stable populations, as 
well as supporting at risk species to prevent the need to list 
altogether.
    Ecological Service is also central to our Government's 
consultation and planning capacity to help deliver 
infrastructure projects throughout the country. Our employees 
are always looking for ways to improve efficiency, consistency, 
and transparency for our consultations. For example, we took 
the initiative to put in place an online tool designed to 
streamline consultations, help project proponents build 
stronger and more efficient consultations.
    We are also operating with 20 percent less staff than we 
had two decades ago. Expanding our work force capacity will 
help ensure that the Service's consultations aren't a 
bottleneck for projects. As we increase investment in our 
country's infrastructure, sufficient work force capacity is 
even more critical.
    The good work we are supporting across the country needs to 
be matched with responsible stewardship on the lands that the 
Service manages. Our refuge system spans more than 850 million 
acres of lands and waters, and contains 568 refuge units. The 
refuge system has grown over time. But over the past 10 years, 
staffing has decreased by nearly 25 percent.
    Our request includes an $83 million increase to help 
rebuild the work force of the refuge system. It will ensure 
that we have the law enforcement agents, visitor services 
staff, and biologists on hand to properly manage these precious 
lands and waters.
    Thank you for the opportunity to testify today. If enacted, 
this budget will make a significant difference. And of course, 
I am pleased to answer any questions that you may have.
    [The prepared statement of Ms. Williams follows:]
    
[GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]	
    
    Senator Carper. Ms. Williams, thanks again very much for 
joining us.
    To my colleagues, thank you all for being here, and to our 
staff, who has helped us prepare for this hearing, I want to 
say thanks to each of you as well.
    My first question deals with Endangered Species Act 
consultation and permitting. Fish and Wildlife Service, as you 
know, is responsible for consulting with other Federal agencies 
to ensure that Federal actions such as issuing permits for 
infrastructure projects, there is a lot of that going on, as 
you know, across our country, but to make sure that those 
Federal actions do not jeopardize endangered species.
    The fiscal year 2024 budget request from the Administration 
includes a substantial increase to meet this responsibility. 
The budget request also includes a legislative proposal to 
increase transfer funds from other agencies for the Service to 
consult on projects funded by the Bipartisan Infrastructure 
Law.
    My question is, would you take a minute or two to talk with 
us about why these requests in the budget are important to 
prevent bottlenecks in the environmental review process?
    Ms. Williams. Thank you for that question, Chairman Carper.
    Indeed, the consultation portion of the Endangered Species 
Act is the backbone of the Act. Countless consultations over 
the past 50 years have saved individual species and populations 
from going extinct. While they can provide for delays, we also 
complete so many of these consultations on time.
    As an example, we had over 1,000 formal consultations in 
the past year, over 11,000 informal consultations, and with the 
new tool I mentioned in my testimony, the IPaC, we also 
provided over 22,000 consultation services that didn't even get 
into the formal process.
    With that said, we have many consultations that we 
undertake. They are increasing, which is a good thing. But we 
also, as you note, need the capacity to be able to complete 
these in a timely manner. It is a matter of a relationship, as 
I have been talking about, where we exchange information back 
and forth with project proponents. And that is what makes these 
projects sometimes better and provides for conserving these 
species that are so important to the American public.
    Senator Carper. All right. Thank you.
    Let me just ask a question, we hear a lot of concerns, I am 
sure you hear them too, about consultation causing project 
delays. You referred to that. But isn't it true that the vast 
majority of consultations actually occur quickly? I would like 
you to elaborate on that, please.
    Ms. Williams. Yes, thank you, Chairman Carper. Indeed, the 
vast majority of the consultations do occur quickly. Very few 
of them provide delays. Those are typically on the more complex 
projects end, where there are more species involved.
    But I will say that we are willing to work with project 
proponents and with all of you in providing the best service we 
can. These consultations are important, and I think it is the 
few that become so controversial, and most of them go through 
more quickly on the informal basis and with no delays.
    Senator Carper. Thank you.
    A question that is more directed to Delaware, we all have 
our interests in our own States. We are interested in the whole 
country, but especially in our own States we represent.
    The Bipartisan Infrastructure Law, as you know, invested 
some $25 million, $26 million in the Delaware River watershed 
through something called the Delaware River Basin Conservation 
Act. This funding, which will be spent over, I believe it is 5 
years, will support projects that restore habitat and ensure 
that communities have vitality in their watersheds.
    I understand that demand for this funding exceeds available 
dollars. So it makes sense that the Service would continue to 
request regular appropriations despite the influx of funding 
from the Bipartisan Infrastructure Law.
    Here is my question. Would you take a moment to elaborate 
for us on the Service's support for this program? Is it true 
that you have received more proposals than you can fund?
    Ms. Williams. Thank you, Chairman Carper.
    Yes, that is true. For the Delaware River Basin Act, we 
received far more requests or proposals than we are able to 
fund. This is true, I believe, across the board, across the 
country with programs like this that are collaborative in 
nature, where we work with so many different partners and 
leverage funds to get really important work done on the ground.
    Here is an example, just this year, where we are working to 
restore habitats in Blackbird Creek Watershed in Delaware 
alone, where we have worked with States and other partners, we 
typically work with NGOs as well, to create 22 acres of dynamic 
coastal habitat. What that does is it addresses poorly buffered 
riparian corridors, it improves water quality and habitat 
connectivity, it improves coastal resilience, as you are so 
well aware of, and community protection.
    So yes, this is a really good example of good government, 
where we are taking proposals from communities and partners and 
helping to get that work on the ground.
    Senator Carper. Thanks for your responses to those 
questions.
    Let me turn to Senator Capito for whatever questions she 
would like to ask.
    Senator Capito. Thank you.
    As I mentioned in my opening statement, West Virginia State 
agencies are now funding multiple folks in the Service's Elkins 
field office to obtain the Section 7 consultations. Two weeks 
ago, I introduced the RESTART Act with members of this 
Committee. The bill includes a program that would allow for 
States to assume the Section 7 responsibility of the Service. 
There is precedent for States assuming a Federal agency's 
responsibility under other environmental laws, like NEPA.
    So my assumption would be, more efficient for States rather 
than using their funds to pay for Federal staff to do the same 
work indirectly, to do it more directly through the State, and 
it would help resolve the apparent staffing issues facing the 
Service.
    I think I know what you are going to say to this, but I am 
going to ask it anyway. Do you support an assumption program 
for Section 7 consultations by the States?
    Ms. Williams. Thank you, Senator.
    I have not seen the text yet, but of course I support 
assistance in achieving these consultations. I would like to 
not have to use transfer authority, I would like to not have to 
ask other agencies to help support our capacity to complete our 
work. Hence the budget request before you today.
    I know that increased capacity is not always the answer. In 
this instance, it is important.
    Senator Capito. Are there other ways your Service could 
work with the States to sort of ameliorate these programs?
    Ms. Williams. Senator Capito, yes. An example is the IPaC 
process. I think for us to work with the States in obtaining 
information and streamlining project proposals, absolutely, it 
is constantly building that relationship. So yes, there are 
ways to work with the States. I hope that we already do. Some 
State agencies, as you have indicated, we have an easier time 
coming up with memoranda and agreements. But we know it is 
always important to build off that relationship.
    So we do work hand in hand, and should.
    Senator Capito. And should, yes.
    You and I have talked repeatedly about my concern with the 
uplisting of the northern long-eared bat from threatened to 
endangered. I do appreciate that the Service delayed the 
effective date of this listing to further consult with 
stakeholders on the transition.
    According to your own agency, bat populations are declining 
due to white-nose syndrome. Has the Service explored the 
possibility of allowing 4(d) rules for endangered species that 
are listed due to effects unrelated to infrastructure 
development, such as white-nose syndrome?
    Ms. Williams. Thank you, Senator Capito, for that question.
    Yes, it is something we certainly would consider, but don't 
feel the Endangered Species Act allows us to have a 4(d) rule 
with an endangered status.
    With that said, in the delayed effective date for the 
uplisting from threatened to endangered for the northern long-
eared bat, we have been working with our partners to get those 
assurances in place and allow both protection for the bat and 
for projects to move forward.
    So while a 4(d) rule technically is not available for 
endangered status, we still have lots of options to work with 
our partners, and certainly have a long track record of doing 
so with bats, Indiana bats, for example, and northern long-
eared bats.
    Senator Capito. Obviously, that particular bat, the 
northern long-eared bat, is found in 37, 38 States.
    Ms. Williams. Yes.
    Senator Capito. I asked you this on the phone the other 
day, but I just want to get it out, the Service is planning to 
vaccinate bats to prevent white-nose syndrome. What is the 
progress on that?
    Ms. Williams. Thank you for that question, too, Senator 
Capito.
    We are trying to approach white-nose syndrome in a number 
of ways. One is to conserve bats that are still existing, so 
that they are still around for when we do find a solution for 
white-nose syndrome. One option that we are researching is 
vaccines for bats, but there are a whole number of projects 
that we are working with all of our partners to try to find a 
solution to white-nose syndrome. And I think we have made some 
progress. But we certainly haven't solved it.
    Senator Capito. Thank you.
    Senator Carper. Senator Padilla, welcome. You are next. Go 
ahead.
    Senator Padilla. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    Director Williams, good morning. It is good to see you here 
in person. I want to thank you for testifying on the fiscal 
year 2024 budget, and I look forward to continuing our work 
together, not just as a member of the Committee, but through my 
role as Chairman of the Subcommittee with oversight over the 
Fish and Wildlife Service.
    I would begin by asking you about the legislative proposal 
in the President's budget to extend good neighbor authority and 
stewardship contracting authority to the Service. I think it is 
a smart idea, frankly, because I have seen how this authority, 
which currently only the Forest Service and the Bureau of Land 
Management have, has enabled the Federal Government to work 
with the State of California to address critical land 
restoration needs.
    Would you spend a few minutes just explaining how these 
authorities to the Fish and Wildlife Service would work, and 
how it would improve the Service's ability to both manage 
public lands and benefit private lands?
    Ms. Williams. Thank you, Senator Padilla. It is good to see 
you this morning.
    Our budget request included three legislative requests, 
one, as Chairman Carper mentioned, for transfer authority, and 
then also the good neighbor authority, and the stewardship 
contracting authority.
    So as you mentioned, these have been incredibly successful 
and helpful for the Forest Service and the BLM. We, the Fish 
and Wildlife Service, would like to be able to take advantage 
of this authority.
    What the good neighbor authority does is it really allows 
us to enter into agreements with adjacent landowners or 
partners to perform watershed, rangeland, forest restoration 
work on Fish and Wildlife Service lands. It is part of building 
those strong community relationships.
    The stewardship contracting authority would allow these 
non-Federal partners to enter into long term contracts to 
protect the habitat quality on Service lands in exchange, for 
example, for timber or other forest products.
    So both would be incredibly helpful in building on our 
relationships, and really providing some innovation on the 
lands that we manage.
    Senator Padilla. I look forward to working with you to 
advance those proposals through the Senate, through the House, 
and to implement them when they are finally official.
    I want to take us back to your confirmation hearing for a 
minute. If you recall, I spoke about how I have made equitable 
access to nature and wildlife a priority of mine. Like 80 
percent of Americans, I grew up in an urban area, specifically 
the densely populated Southern California region, city of Los 
Angeles, more specifically where many communities are unable to 
connect, frankly, with local biodiversity and the natural 
world, for a number of reasons.
    Moreover, in many local communities even trees and parks 
are scarce, and pavement is prevalent. I mention pavement, 
because when you have enough pavement, when you hit that 
critical mass, you end up creating urban heat islands, which 
has the additional effect of keeping kids indoors, particularly 
in the summertime.
    I am concerned that urban communities, and particularly our 
children, do not have the opportunity to connect with nature 
and enjoy the benefits of connecting with nature. Director 
Williams, can you speak about the importance of the Service's 
Urban Wildlife Conservation program and how your budget request 
will help increase access to the outdoors for so many Americans 
who do live in urban areas?
    Ms. Williams. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
    Senator Padilla, as I started my comments this morning, I 
stated that the Fish and Wildlife Service's role is to connect 
nature to people or to connect people with nature. So why 
wouldn't that mean in rural and urban areas across the country?
    One of the values of the National Wildlife Refuge System is 
that those refuges are across the country in urban and rural 
communities, and are very much part of the community, and 
should be. At the moment, we have a focus on the Urban Wildlife 
Conservation Program, so that includes urban refuges, but it 
also includes urban migratory bird treaty cities to connect 
people in urban areas with nature.
    I just 2 weeks ago was in Boise, Idaho, with the Secretary 
where each year we provide $1 million going forward for an 
urban refuge. And it was awarded to Boise, there at the Deer 
Flat Refuge, because of the work they have done with the 
community, especially in an Hispanic access organization and 
getting kids to the refuge.
    I have to say it was one of the best events that I have 
been to. The backdrop of where the Secretary spoke was a 
sandbox where all the kids were playing. That was probably more 
fun than all the rest of the event to see them outside, and 
taking advantage of this area.
    So, Senator, I would love more support in the budget 
request for increased money for urban refuges.
    One last point on this, what we have learned through our 
Urban Conservation Program, we have developed what we call 
standards of excellence for this program that I would like to 
apply across the Fish and Wildlife Service, and that is, 
showing up in the community, meeting people where they are, 
asking the community what they want and need, and to really be 
better partners within the community. So I see that as a model 
across the board for the Fish and Wildlife Service. Thank you.
    Senator Padilla. Thank you very much.
    Thank you, Mr. Chair.
    Senator Carper. Thank you.
    Senator Cramer, you are next, then followed by Senate 
Whitehouse, and then Senator Lummis.
    Senator Cramer. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    Thank you, Ms. Williams, for being here.
    Lake Ilo National Wildlife Refuge is a Fish and Wildlife 
Service managed refuge near Dunn Center, North Dakota. 
Recently, my office was inundated by calls because the way the 
Fish and Wildlife Service dealt with, the local management 
dealt with seepage in an earthen dam, which needs to be dealt 
with, obviously, was to drain it, drain the lake in April. 
Evidently, again, only concerned citizens call, but evidently 
without very good communications with them or the local 
communities.
    Now, of course, the local groups are dealing with the 
fallout of that. These are some pictures of the fallout from 
that. As you can see, they are cleaning up the dead fish. It is 
unsightly, to say the least, and other bad qualities.
    My bigger concern, and that is a big concern, but my bigger 
concern is that the permanent fix that the Service has been 
working on isn't expected to be completed for a couple of 
years. This is kind of a big, immediate problem. I am pleading 
with you to work with me, tell me how I can help you fix this 
earthen dam sooner than a couple of years from now. Because 
another spring would be really, really difficult like this.
    So can we try to work it faster, please?
    Ms. Williams. Senator Cramer, I see the photos. I am aware 
of this issue, and yes, it is really unfortunate and one of the 
not fun things that we get to work on. Obviously, our primary 
concern is for the public safety of this dam, hence the draw 
down. My understanding is that we are working to get the design 
complete, and understand too the need to do this as quickly as 
possible.
    I apologize if we haven't worked well with the community. I 
know that we have tried. I even saw some photos from a 
listening session with the county.
    But I would like to work with you on this and can 
understand that it is very unfortunate.
    Senator Cramer. I think the communication problem was more 
the timing that you actually had mentioned getting to it.
    One of the issues, while it is a recreational area, it is 
also used a lot by agriculture. So when a farmer comes to a 
spring in the drought area, and their source of water is gone, 
you understand all that. I want to help you do this a year 
sooner, if we can do that.
    Ms. Williams. Thank you, Senator.
    One thing I read, too, one of the comments from one of your 
constituents, was that there used to be a refuge employee there 
at the Lake Ilo National Wildlife Refuge. Because of our 
capacity issue with refuges, we have dropped 25 percent of our 
capacity. The increased budget request would help us have 
somebody, an employee at Lake Ilo National Wildlife Refuge, to 
work with your constituents on a more frequent basis. That 
would be a benefit.
    Senator Cramer. It would be. Thank you for that.
    Now, back to my favorite topic with you, waterfowl 
protection area easement mapping. Now, we have made some nice 
progress on pre-1976 mapping, getting the digital maps, the 
satellite maps, to our landowners who have the easements. That 
has certainly improved the look of things, and we have a better 
understanding of what is actually an easement and what isn't.
    Unfortunately, I am hearing that new easements are not 
receiving satellite maps. Again, I don't know if this is, what 
the issue is. But again, please help me. What I worry about is 
not just not having a certain high tech literal map of an 
easement. But it further erodes confidence between the 
landowner and the Service.
    The other thing, while I am on easements, we also would 
like to get to a 95 percent certainty standard, which is what 
the NRCS at USDA has for their easements, rather than the 99 
percent that the Service uses. Just reconciling all of this I 
think would help everybody better understand what they are 
dealing with.
    As you know, there is a lot of confusion on whether some 
people are dealing with the Fish and Wildlife Service or USDA, 
not your problem. But to the degree we can reconcile some of 
these things, the better.
    What do you know about the satellite maps with new 
easements? Is that true or what is the challenge?
    Ms. Williams. Senator Cramer, first, I want to pull back a 
minute and recognize the work we have done together. I think, I 
hope you see we have improved this situation where we for the 
first time have a national handbook on wetland easements. We 
have clarified that refuge managers, not law enforcement 
agents, are responsible for managing easements. We have 
completed the pre-1976 mapping and appeal process. We have 
codified for clarity in transportation drain tile setbacks.
    So yes, now we are starting this new process. My 
understanding is that we are working to provide these color 
satellite photos for the new easements. I don't have the 
totally up to date information, but that is something we were 
aware of. It is a helpful tool, and we would like to be able to 
provide it.
    Senator Cramer. I appreciate all of that, and we can talk 
about it more later.
    The 95 percent versus 99 percent deals specifically with 
the drain tile confidence threshold. Just reconciling that with 
the USDA would be great. Thank you.
    Ms. Williams. Senator Cramer, I would say I am working 
diligently, It is something I am very proud of in this 
Administration, across agencies. And I would like to be 
consistent with the NRCS. I do understand that that is helpful, 
to not have discrepancies amongst agencies.
    Senator Cramer. A lot of silos in the Federal Government. I 
appreciate your working across them.
    Thank you.
    Senator Capito [presiding]. Senator Whitehouse.
    Senator Whitehouse. Thank you very much.
    Thank you very much for being here, Director.
    A year ago, I asked you about the effort of the Fish and 
Wildlife Service with respect to oceans and coasts, because I 
constantly see underrepresentation of oceans and coasts work 
across the Federal Government. The Army Corps flood program has 
dedicated as little as 1 percent of its money to coasts. The 
Land and Water Conservation Fund heavily favors upland and 
freshwater States and upland and freshwater projects in coastal 
States.
    So we who have coastal States and a very significant ocean 
environment right offshore feel very often that we don't get 
much attention. Could you let me know what if any improvements 
have been made in the past year, so that the oceans part of the 
United States of America is given something resembling even 
handed treatment compared to upland and freshwater?
    Ms. Williams. Senator Whitehouse, I remember that question, 
and I think of it often. One way is our request for the 
increase for our Coastal Program, and our Coastal Program is 
similar to Partners for Fish and Wildlife and other 
collaborative programs, where we provide technical and 
financial assistance to partners to restore and improve coastal 
habitat on public and private lands.
    With that said, Senator, I very much understand and 
appreciate the critical role that these coastal lands play, not 
just uplands, but coastal wetlands are the first defense 
against sea level rise and storms, water quality, flood 
control, et cetera.
    Senator Whitehouse. Offshore fisheries, and reefs, and 
things like that.
    Ms. Williams. Critical to species. What has improved, I 
believe, Senator Whitehouse, is that we are working very 
closely, I am working very closely with Janet Coit from NOAA on 
all of our programs going forward.
    Senator Whitehouse. Yes, she is aware of Rhode Island's 
problems, having worked as the Rhode Island Department of 
Environmental Management Director.
    The scale of this is really pretty staggering. The figure I 
use is zeta joules, the joule being the unit of measure of heat 
energy, zeta being a number that has 21 zeroes behind it. It is 
enormous. To put scale to that enormous number of zeroes, the 
entire human consumption of energy on the planet runs at about 
half a zeta joule. So it is a damn big number.
    For the price of that, because of carbon emissions, and 
because of the magnification effect of the carbon emissions in 
the atmosphere, the oceans have been estimated to be absorbing 
14 zeta joules of heat every year, multiple Hiroshima level 
explosions worth of heat per second happening in the oceans.
    So it is really a dramatic effect. And it is not just a 
fraction of our fossil fuel energy expenditure, it is a vast 
multiple. So the oceans are taking a beating far in excess of 
the actual heat value of fossil fuel, or result of fossil fuel 
emissions. So I think it is really important that we pay 
attention to that.
    If you don't mind, we talk often about the monetary value 
of wildlife. But I would like to ask you, if the only value of 
wildlife is seen as what can be monetized, will we do a decent 
job of protecting our wildlife, particularly at a time 
described as a great extinction?
    Ms. Williams. Senator Whitehouse, while trying to calculate 
the monetary value of wildlife can be a helpful tool, it is by 
no means the only tool. And part of, I think about the support 
for wildlife in this country, is the emotional well being and 
the sense of awe that wildlife invokes in all of us. Even the 
most ardent detractors, still when they see an elephant or 
landowners who----
    Senator Whitehouse. Or a red knot that flew to Delaware 
from Brazil. An impressive feat for a little bird.
    Ms. Williams. Right, these incredible stories.
    Senator Whitehouse. Well, thank you. Keep that in mind, 
because I think there is a persistent effort to limit our 
effort to support wildlife and hold off the great extinction to 
only what can be monetized. And I think we agree that what can 
be monetized is only a small fraction of the actual value of a 
healthy ecosystem with robust wildlife.
    Thank you.
    Ms. Williams. Thank you. Beautifully said.
    Senator Capito. Thank you.
    Senator Lummis.
    Senator Lummis. Thank you, Madam Chairman.
    Ms. Williams, thanks for always being accessible. Even 
though we don't agree on everything, you have been very 
pleasant to work with, and we appreciate that, and very 
accessible.
    I know that you would be surprised if I didn't bring up the 
grizzly bear, so I will bring it up first. The Fish and 
Wildlife Service is now 4 months overdue on the 12 month review 
of the State's de-listing petition. And I know you have had 
conversation with the Wyoming Game and Fish on this.
    Can you provide me with an update on the timeline?
    Ms. Williams. Yes, Senator Lummis, very attuned to this 
issue, because I care about it, and I want to make progress. I 
think it is one of the success stories, and a story we should 
be able to tell of how we have conserved and restored grizzly 
bears.
    Indeed, we, the Fish and Wildlife Service, we were behind 
on the 90 day petitions, where the three States, Wyoming, 
Idaho, and Montana, petitioned the Fish and Wildlife Service to 
delist grizzly bears. So we were behind in finding both 
Montana's and Wyoming's petitions to warrant further review, 
and we declined Idaho's petition, for which I think we are just 
about to be challenged on that petition.
    What that did, though, while we were behind in those 
findings, is we now go through a 12 month petition review, it 
is called, where we take the 90 day finding and go in deeper to 
develop either a proposed de-listing rule or a finding that de-
listing isn't warranted. So we are going through that process 
right now, diligently. And as both you and I understand, we 
need to do that following the science and with care, so that 
any solution is durable.
    What I don't want to see, and I don't think any of us want 
to see, is flip-flops or delays from litigation. I want to get 
the rules just right.
    Senator Lummis. Well, I urge you to act with vigor on this 
petition. The grizzly has been recovered for 20 years, 20 
years. Yet it is still on the list. To me, that sort of negates 
the whole purpose of the Endangered Species Act, when it has 
been acknowledged that the recovery numbers have been 
consistently met and exceeded since 2003, and yet this species 
is still listed.
    I would just encourage you to act with vigor.
    Ms. Williams. Senator Lummis, the irony is not lost on me 
of my past career in working on wolves where in Montana we were 
working with Wyoming on adequate regulatory mechanisms. And now 
we are trying to work closely with the State of Montana to help 
them have the adequate regulatory mechanisms in place to be 
able to get to a de-listing. Thank you.
    Senator Lummis. Now I am going to switch over to the 
critical habitat designations. As Ranking Member Capito noted, 
there have been three different bipartisan resolutions of 
disapproval to U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service actions. That I 
think should put the Service on notice that the Congress thinks 
that some re-visiting of the approaches you are taking to 
definitions of critical habitat and the manner in which certain 
species are being evaluated could use some rethinking.
    So I just encourage you to do that. It is actually quite a 
thing for the Congress to pass Congressional Review Act matters 
and resolutions of disapproval. So to have three come in front 
of the Service in such a short time I think should give you all 
pause.
    With that said, I would like to ask something about 
migration corridors. There is great bipartisan interest across 
11 western States for elk, mule deer, and pronghorn migration 
corridors. How does the Service's budget request treat 
migration corridors?
    Ms. Williams. Senator Lummis, thank you for that question.
    I do recognize the overwhelming support for migration 
corridors. Just last week, unfortunately I was not able to go 
to it, but there was a meeting in Tucson where Deputy Secretary 
Tommy Beaudreau announced funding, I think it was $4 million 
for migration corridors. Our budget request does build in 
corridors. I can't remember the exact number for that, and I 
can get it to you. But I very much would believe it is 
important, it builds support for these really important 
movements. It gets to the sense of awe and migration in 
wildlife, too.
    So I will get you the exact number. I appreciate your 
support, and I think it is very important.
    Senator Lummis. No worries. We will follow up with you.
    Thank you for being here.
    I yield back.
    Senator Carper [presiding]. All right. Thank you.
    Senator Ricketts, Senator Capito and I flipped a coin to 
see whether you would be next or Senator Boozman. Senator 
Ricketts, you won it this time.
    [Laughter.]
    Senator Ricketts. Great. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.
    Thank you, Ms. Williams, for being here today.
    When you think about Fish and Wildlife, you all establish 
goals and metrics for some of the topics you want to do, like 
how you measure success, is that fair?
    Ms. Williams. Yes, Senator.
    Senator Ricketts. Would you agree it is important to 
actually have definitions or goals when you are trying to 
achieve something, a particular plan?
    Ms. Williams. Generally, yes, Senator.
    Senator Ricketts. OK. And in reading through the Fish and 
Wildlife proposed budget, the President's 30x30 environmental 
program is specifically mentioned there. One of the important 
things in the executive summary says, ``The Service is a key 
player in the Administration's goal for an ambitious America 
the Beautiful Initiative.'' And America the Beautiful is what 
used to be called the 30x30 plan, which is to put 30 percent of 
the United States into conservation by the year 2030. It goes 
back to President Biden's Executive Order 14008 that he 
published on January 27th of 2021. Is that accurate?
    Ms. Williams. Yes.
    Senator Ricketts. So in that goal to conserve 30 percent of 
the United States, what is the definition of conservation? How 
are you defining conservation?
    Ms. Williams. Senator Ricketts, with this question, I have 
paid close attention, obviously, to the America the Beautiful 
initiative, and specifically to your State, working with the 
other State directors and with the Association of Fish and 
Wildlife Agencies. Understanding from the Fish and Wildlife 
Service's perspective, conservation includes the principles by 
which the America the Beautiful initiative was put in place. 
That includes respecting private property rights, focusing on 
collaborative, community based conservation.
    If you see our budget request for Partners Program, for the 
Coastal Program, we at the Fish and Wildlife Service are taking 
the America the Beautiful initiative and asking for the 
capacity and funding for building those community based 
partnership programs.
    Senator Ricketts. So one definition that some of the 
environmental groups have put out there have said to 
permanently protect in the natural state. Does that mean you 
disagree with that statement, that conservation does not mean 
to permanently protect in the natural state?
    Ms. Williams. Senator, that could be one way to define 
conservation, but there are many including----
    Senator Ricketts. Don't you have to have a definition of 
conservation to be able to say 30 percent of the United States 
is conserved? Don't you have to have a definition of that 
before you can even reach that goal?
    Ms. Williams. Senator, as I said, I think there are many 
ways to talk about conservation----
    Senator Ricketts. But if there are many ways to talk about 
conservation, then how can you know if you actually reach that 
goal? Because if there are many ways to talk about it, you 
could have a definition, I could have a definition. But that 
may mean that we are not at 30 percent in my view and is in 30 
percent in your view.
    Ms. Williams. Senator, in implementing the America the 
Beautiful at the Fish and Wildlife Service we are focused on 
our approach, the approach that that initiative set out. I am 
personally less focused on the numbers and more focused on the 
approach and making progress with all of our partners.
    Senator Ricketts. So when you say you are a key player in 
the America the Beautiful, you don't really mean getting to 30 
percent of the country conserved by 2030, then?
    Ms. Williams. Senator, that is an audacious goal that I 
would love to achieve.
    Senator Ricketts. So, but if you would love to achieve it, 
how can you achieve it if you won't define conservation and 
what conservation means? How can you achieve 30 percent if you 
can't even define what conservation means?
    Ms. Williams. Senator, we can achieve it by working with 
others in all the ways that the America the Beautiful 
initiative sets out, which includes, as I have said, a number 
of ways to achieve conservation. What might be conservation in 
your State might look different than what conservation efforts 
would be in Senator Whitehouse's State, coastal versus prairie.
    Senator Ricketts. But then you can never get to 30 percent, 
because if you are going to change the definitions, you don't 
even know if you have ever reached there. Right?
    Ms. Williams. No, I don't agree with that, but Senator, I 
am happy to visit with you more. We have not had a chance to 
meet and talk before today's hearing, so I am happy to come 
visit and talk through this with you. What I care about is how 
we are implementing and doing our work in your State.
    Senator Ricketts. So in your budget, how much of your 
budget is going to the America the Beautiful plan?
    Ms. Williams. Senator, we don't have a line item for the 
America the Beautiful plan, or the initiative. What our budget 
request asks for, as I started my testimony today, for example, 
a $19 million increase in our Partners for Fish and Wildlife 
Program, which is most pertinent in your State. So that 
contributes toward the America the Beautiful initiative, as 
does our Coastal program, as does our request for joint 
ventures for migratory birds, working with our partners, as 
does our habitat budget request for the refuge system.
    So there are ways in which we address conservation 
throughout our budget that recognize the various types of 
conservation we can achieve.
    Senator Ricketts. OK, thank you. Thank you, Ms. Williams.
    Thank you, Chairman.
    Senator Carper. When Ms. Williams was first nominated for 
this post, she had come to us from Montana where she had worked 
for the Governor of Montana, as I recall. She indicated in her 
responses to our questions that she would be responsive, and 
would certainly be willing to sit down and talk with us, our 
staffs, and to come to our States. Sometimes nominees make 
those promises, they don't keep them. She has kept them. And I 
would urge you to take advantage of that.
    Senator Ricketts. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    Ms. Williams. Thank you.
    Senator Carper. All right.
    Senator Boozman, please.
    Senator Boozman. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you, 
Ms. Williams, for being here. We appreciate all of your hard 
work.
    We have had the opportunity to visit. We have raised 
concerns about the Ninth Circuit's 2015 Cottonwood decision. 
There you have a situation kind of like Senator Ricketts was 
talking about, you have different people who have different 
views of conservation and maybe use different methods to block 
things.
    Because of that, we have a situation where it is difficult 
for the Forest Service to get things done. We have talked about 
rulemaking and things. Can you tell us how that is progressing, 
or if it is progressing, and the necessity for doing that?
    Ms. Williams. Thank you, Senator Boozman. I just have to 
say I had hoped to be in your fair State next weekend where my 
son is racing, in Fayetteville, and I look forward to meeting 
you out there, not just here.
    Senator Boozman. The biking capital of the world.
    Ms. Williams. The biking capital of the world. And we have 
talked about the Cottonwood decision. What I would say is, and 
I am very proud of this, as I mentioned earlier, in our work 
across the agencies in this Administration. So the Department 
of the Interior, we have worked closely with U.S. Department of 
Agriculture on this issue where we together provided technical 
assistance on Senate legislation in the past. And we stand 
ready to provide technical assistance going forward and helping 
you through this process.
    Senator Boozman. So you would like for us to do it, but you 
are not going to do any rulemaking?
    Ms. Williams. Senator, I believe that the better solution 
is through the legislation and the work that we did with USDA 
to provide technical assistance. I think that is a better fix 
than regulation.
    Senator Boozman. Tell me about the September 2022 U.S. Fish 
and Wildlife final rule that prohibits the use of lead fishing 
tackle and ammunition on nine individual wildlife refuges. Do 
you have any scientific data backing that up? Is there a study 
that says that there is harm? Can you tell me about that?
    Ms. Williams. Senator Boozman, yes, I am glad you asked 
about lead on national wildlife refuges. I do think there is 
lots of different information out there, and confusion.
    First off, we all know and realize that lead has negative 
impacts on the environment. As an example, there was just this 
year a study from USGS, I think the Journal of Wildlife 
Management, that demonstrated the negative impacts of lead on 
eagle populations, for example.
    When I was the Director of Montana Fish, Wildlife, and 
Parks, we had a rehabilitation center. I remember going to see 
a bald eagle that had lead poisoning. If you have seen it, it 
can cause paralysis, death, tissue deterioration, behavioral 
changes. It is real, and it is not something that is very 
pleasant to see. We also know, the science shows specific 
impacts on condors. For example, 120 condors have died from 
lead poisoning.
    Nonetheless, for the Fish and Wildlife Service, we are not 
promulgating a rule prohibiting lead across the system. 
Instead, what we are doing is working with the Hunting and 
Wildlife Conservation Council--thank you for being on the 
Migratory Bird Conservation Council--and we are working with a 
joint task force of the Association of Fish and Wildlife 
Agencies, to find a way forward to limit lead on the landscape 
and think of a way to have affordable, non-lead ammunition, so 
that we don't impact access.
    Hunting is still very important on our refuges. But we 
would also like to be able to address the impact of lead and 
are working with partners and want to work with partners to 
find a long term solution for that.
    Senator Boozman. Very good. We appreciate all of your 
efforts on the Migratory Bird Commission. That is something 
that is a great success. I think it is really a good example of 
how all kinds of strange bedfellows came together, which is 
generally a really good thing, for a common goal that made a 
big difference. Give yourself a pat for your work in that 
effort also. Thank you.
    Ms. Williams. Thank you.
    Senator Boozman. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    Senator Carper. Senator Boozman, thank you for those 
questions.
    I have a couple of questions, then Senator Capito has a 
few. We have about 12 more members waiting outside in the hall, 
we are going to unlock the doors and let them in to grill you a 
little bit longer.
    [Laughter.]
    Senator Carper. My next question, this is a question that 
deals with science, science based decisionmaking. When the Fish 
and Wildlife Service makes their determinations regarding a 
species, I am told it does so based on best available science. 
This means that sometimes the Service proposes to protect 
species and habitats in ways that are politically unpopular for 
some constituencies.
    For example, the Service must take climate science into 
account and must provide protection for species, even when it 
means the regulations may impact industries that aren't causing 
the species' decline. What gets less attention are all of the 
ways the Service collaborates with States, with Tribes, with 
local governments, with industry and other conservation 
partners, to provide the flexibility and the assistance in 
implementing these decisions.
    Would you talk with us for a minute or two about why it is 
important that science remains at the heart of the Service's 
decisionmaking? Will you also share with us on this Committee 
today what happens after the Fish and Wildlife Service takes a 
regulatory action and all of the ways in which you work with 
stakeholders on implementation?
    Ms. Williams. Thank you, Chairman Carper, for that 
question.
    Certainly, science underpins all that we do at the Fish and 
Wildlife Service. We implement, for example, the Endangered 
Species Act based on the science and the law, which yes, 
indeed, often brings us into the crosshairs of controversy.
    But I would argue, Senator, that our job is to adhere to 
the science and to adhere to the law. Sometimes, rarely do I 
make a decision that is popular or liked by all. I just can't 
imagine one, that often they are controversial.
    Nonetheless, the science, the law underpins our work, and 
we too recognize we must build strong relationships with our 
partners, whether it is NGOs, whether it is Tribes, whether it 
is States and local communities and industries, too. Often 
there is a lot of interest in an uplisting of a species like 
the northern long-eared bat, a listing of species like lesser 
prairie chicken.
    We would not move forward with those proposals if we didn't 
think we had the science telling us to do so. We know we are 
entering the crosshairs in doing this. But the science is very 
clear on species, those two species especially.
    Our work with the States and our partners is never done. We 
can never communicate too much. My hat is off to the Fish and 
Wildlife Service employees and USGS, other scientists who help 
us deliver that science on the ground. We are a decentralized 
agency, so we do rely on those employees on the ground, hence 
this budget request.
    I hope I have answered your question, Senator.
    Senator Carper. I think you have.
    I am going to ask another question, and I will ask you to 
answer briefly, if you would, please. Then we will yield to 
Senator Cardin and then back to Senator Capito.
    Would you elaborate on the importance of the Science 
Applications Program? Further, what might the Service be able 
to accomplish with the funding you have requested for this 
program in the fiscal year 2024 budget? Then we will turn to 
Senator Cardin.
    Ms. Williams. Thank you for asking that question, Chairman 
Carper, because it is a program that often goes unnoticed. Our 
budget request does include an increase for the Science 
Applications Program, which has been grossly underfunded in the 
past couple of years, I think in part because people don't 
always remember or know what Science Applications does. 
Sometimes our best work does go, we undertake it under the 
radar.
    The Science Applications essentially works with partners to 
provide science. An example currently is that we have developed 
a joint task force with the Association of Fish and Wildlife 
Agencies on landscape conservation. This is where the States 
have come to us and asked for support from Science Applications 
in building out this process. And without this funding, we 
would not be able to address the concerns of the States, and/or 
be forward thinking in landscape conservation.
    So Science Applications is similar to the Partners Program, 
the Coastal Program where we leverage moneys from other 
processes and provide technical assistance, and as you asked, 
the critical science to be making sound decisions. It is very 
important.
    Senator Carper. Good. Thank you for that response.
    Senator Cardin, welcome, and thank you.
    Senator Cardin. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    Let me thank Ms. Williams for her leadership at Fish and 
Wildlife.
    You are one of our major stakeholders in our efforts in 
Maryland to deal with our coastal area habitats and to deal 
with the Chesapeake Bay.
    I am going to ask you a few questions in regard to specific 
budget items. In most cases, I am pleased, in one case I am 
not, and I will go over that with you.
    First, in regard to the Neotropical Migratory Bird 
Conservation, I am glad to see a significant increase in the 
President's budget. This has been a bipartisan effort in our 
Committee to deal with the realities of neotropical migratory 
birds that are well beyond our shores. A lot of these funds are 
used in other countries in our hemisphere, where we have 
migratory birds that come into the United States.
    First, thank you, and any comments you have as to how those 
additional funds would be utilized.
    Ms. Williams. Yes, Senator Cardin, I am so glad you asked 
about this program. The neotropical migratory birds are so 
important at the moment. The demand for the program far exceeds 
our funding, so our budget request bumps up to the demand that 
we have been seeing of $10 million, whereas we only have 
funding for $5 million.
    I want to give you a really specific example of a bird that 
I know you and I both care about, and that is the Baltimore 
oriole.
    Senator Cardin. It has been doing better of late.
    [Laughter.]
    Ms. Williams. I would like to go to a game this year.
    For Mother's Day, I was thinking about Mother's Day and 
being so grateful to my mother and my children, and really, 
Mother Earth, what we are all talking about here. I was lucky 
enough on Mother's Day to sit and watch a Baltimore oriole come 
into the same spot in a sycamore tree where I had seen it build 
its nest. It came around and chose its spot and started to 
build its nest.
    That is thanks to the Neotropical Migratory Bird Program 
that helps conserve these birds as they migrate out of the 
country, and those stopovers and wintering grounds are just as 
important as when they are here.
    Senator Cardin. I was in Ecuador and Colombia, which both 
raved about our Neotropical Migratory Bird Program, how 
important it is in regard to their game plans.
    Let me get a little bit to our wildlife refuges. We in 
Maryland are proud to have five. Your budget, I want to make 
sure it is adequate because we want it to be six. We have a 
proposed new refuge in the southern part of our State.
    Are there adequate resources in order to not only preserve 
but expand our wildlife refuges?
    Ms. Williams. Senator Cardin, not at all. One of my 
priorities while I am in this position is to get more support 
for our incredible national wildlife refuge system that has 
been chronically underfunded and where we are understaffed, 
whether from law enforcement, visitor services, biologists on 
the ground.
    So these refuges, as you know, are so important to the 
communities and to the American public. They are very different 
than other public lands in that people hunt and fish on them. 
There is a lot of interaction on refuges, whether urban or 
rural.
    So we are at an inflection point with the refuge system and 
have asked for a substantial increase to be able to take care 
of them.
    Senator Cardin. Including the expansion, I hope, into the 
southern part of our State.
    Ms. Williams. Including.
    Senator Cardin. Thank you.
    Let me mention one area of disappointment. We established a 
Chesapeake Wild Program in order to deal with the habitat 
issues around the Chesapeake Bay. The additional funds in 
fiscal year 2023, we got it up to $8 million. But now there is 
a suggestion of zeroing it out in your budget.
    I take it that was just a mistake, you didn't really mean 
that.
    [Laughter.]
    Ms. Williams. Senator Cardin, the Chesapeake Wild Program 
is really incredible. And it is another example of this 
collaborative approach.
    What we did is we requested the funding in our Science 
Applications space so that we can provide these services, but 
yes, it is a really great program. We would love to see it 
funded. But it may not be specifically called out in our budget 
request.
    Senator Cardin. Thanks for that explanation. We will try to 
help you with getting it specifically called out.
    Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    Senator Carper. Your conversation about the Baltimore 
orioles reminds me, a couple of times I have had the pleasure 
of going to an Orioles game. I am a huge Detroit Tigers fan, 
and Ben is nice enough to invite me to join him sometimes. And 
a couple of years ago, I was not able to go, but there was a 
playoff game involving the Baltimore Orioles and the Detroit 
Tigers. It was the final game of the playoff.
    Ben was kind enough to call me right at the end of the 
game, the Orioles had won, and the cheering was so loud you 
could almost hear it from Delaware. He held the phone out so I 
could listen to everybody cheering the Baltimore Orioles for 
the demise of my Detroit Tigers. That is the kind of fan he is.
    [Laughter.]
    Senator Cardin. And I appreciate your not holding it 
against the Baltimore oriole neotropical migratory bird.
    [Laughter.]
    Senator Carper. Never. We will find a way to get even, 
though. But it won't be that way.
    All right.
    Senator Sullivan, welcome.
    Senator Sullivan and I have had the opportunity to sit 
through a couple of Army-Navy games before. He's a Marine 
colonel, and I spent some time in the Navy. We had different 
uniforms, but the same team. There you go.
    Senator Sullivan. Definitely the same team, Mr. Chairman. 
Thank you.
    Director Williams, thank you for being here. We were 
talking earlier in the hearing about consultations. One big 
frustration of mine that I have raised with your boss, 
Assistant Secretary Estevez and the Assistant Secretary for 
Indian Affairs yesterday, the Dep Sec Interior, the Secretary 
of Interior, we are not getting the consultations that we 
deserve in Alaska. We just don't.
    As part of your confirmation process, you committed to me 
that you were going to do things focused on Alaska, you would 
reach out to the people, you would reach out to me, Senator 
Murkowski, our Congressman Peltola. You guys aren't doing that.
    Your agency manages over 70 million acres of land in 
Alaska. That is bigger than Arizona. No disrespect to the 
Chairman, that is 40 times bigger than Delaware. I was in a 
meeting with the President of the United States recently, I 
handed him a big map of Alaska, 45 executive orders and 
executive acts since the Biden administration has taken to 
singularly focus on Alaska, 45. Most of them I read about in 
the newspaper. It is just outrageous.
    So I need to get from you again, and I have had this phone 
call with everybody, if you are going to do something in 
Alaska, you need to consult with me and Senator Murkowski and 
our Congresswoman before you do it. I know you get a lot from 
the radical enviros who tell you to go do these things. You 
have got to consult with us.
    Can I get your commitment on that again? I have asked this 
for everybody. They all say, oh, sure, Senator. Then I read 
about it in the newspaper again. I am starting to get really, 
really, really mad.
    And I raised this with the President. I even said, Mr. 
President, this is wrong. You know it, I know it. It is wrong.
    So can I get the commitment again in this hearing? If you 
are going to do something to my State, reach out to me and the 
stakeholders first. The Center for Biological Diversity is not 
listed in the Constitution, but the Senate is. And it is a 
frustration of mine, an enormous frustration of mine.
    Ms. Williams. Chairman Carper, Senator Sullivan, of course 
I absolutely want to work with you on all of what we do in 
Alaska. I am very proud of the regional director that I chose 
for Alaska, and I think there are a number of projects, 
impacts, approaches, that indicate deep engagement and 
understanding of the need to consult in your State.
    Senator Sullivan. OK, well, good.
    Let me ask, your mission is to conserve, protect, and 
enhance fish, wildlife, plants, and their habitats. That is the 
mission, correct?
    Ms. Williams. Yes.
    Senator Sullivan. Is Fish and Wildlife Service a sub-
agency, then, within the Department of Interior when it comes 
to conservation of fish and wildlife?
    Ms. Williams. Yes, the Fish and Wildlife Service, we talk 
about it as a bureau within the Department of the Interior.
    Senator Sullivan. OK. And you and I have talked a lot about 
ANILCA, you have read ANILCA?
    Ms. Williams. Yes, Senator.
    Senator Sullivan. Have you read the Sturgeon 1 and Sturgeon 
2 U.S. Supreme Court cases, nine to zero, by the way?
    Ms. Williams. Yes, Senator, but I can't claim to have been 
the State's attorney general.
    Senator Sullivan. OK. Good point. That law gives Alaska 
plenary authority over the methods and take and means of 
harvest of our fish and game resources, including hunting on 
Federal lands. You are aware of that?
    Ms. Williams. Senator, I should re-read the Sturgeon cases.
    Senator Sullivan. It does. It is not a trick question.
    So again, I am just trying to, when there is so much 
overreach on areas that we think just from the Federal law 
perspective provides our State with the management rights of 
fish and wildlife, fish and game, even on Federal lands, again, 
it is very frustrating. The amount of frustration back home is 
really significant.
    Let me just mention two final ones, because I am running 
out of time here. The Fish and Wildlife Service has declined to 
list the Alexander Archipelago wolf in southeast Alaska as 
endangered. I wrote you on March 31st on this issue. You have 
noticed Congress has been very actively overturning through 
CRAs the Endangered Species Act listings.
    We need to take a hard look at that one. The critical 
habitat there would be very damaging to the people in the 
southeast. Very few populations, Native, non-Native, think that 
that population is declining. We actually think it is 
objectively healthy, so does our State. If you can take a look 
at that.
    Then of course there is the King Cove Road. Once again, the 
Secretary said, oh, we need to consult more with the people. At 
the same time, they say, we are going to do environmental 
justice.
    The people of King Cove, the vast majority of them are 
Native, have been consulted for 30 years. They want the road. 
She doesn't need to do any more consultation. Of the 900 people 
there, I think every one wants the road. They have been 
consulted. And the Secretary, as she always does, comes up with 
some big excuse that harms the Native people and says, we need 
to do more consultation.
    Do you have any comments on why you pulled out of that 
litigation? I appreciate your coming to King Cove. But again, 
the frustration of my State is felt on that, particularly from 
the Native population. King Cove is boiling over in a huge way.
    Ms. Williams. Senator, I do have comments on that in that I 
think this is, yes, it is controversial. I was able to go there 
with the Secretary and Senator Murkowski. I know that we had 
high level officials there this spring.
    My answer is that as the first Native American Secretary, 
she does hear this. She is pushing me to think in new ways, and 
the point of moving forward is to do so in a durable and 
lasting way that is more defensible for litigation. So I am 
very proud of this Administration and this Secretary in how she 
is pushing us to think of our relationship in the State of 
Alaska in a lasting way.
    I look forward to working with you on this issue, and I 
know there is more information to come and soon. And I know it 
is a very, very important topic that has bantered around for 
far too long.
    Senator Sullivan. And the wolf in southeast.
    Ms. Williams. The wolf, Senator, the Alexander Archipelago 
wolf, we would like to work with you. We have worked closely 
with the State of Alaska and even had a member of the Alaska 
Department of Fish and Game on the species data assessment team 
review. So we are pulling the State into that process, along 
with others, very carefully. I understand your interest in the 
impact.
    Senator Sullivan. Thank you.
    Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    Senator Carper. You are welcome.
    Senator Capito, thanks for your patience.
    Senator Capito. Thank you. I just have two kind of quick 
questions, I think.
    In March, OMB and CEQ and the Permitting Council issued 
guidance on implementation of President Biden's permitting 
action plan. The guidance suggested, directed agencies to 
submit agency action plans to improve the permitting process.
    Have you submitted your action plan?
    Ms. Williams. I believe, Senator Capito, the action plan is 
for the department as a whole. I don't believe that the Fish 
and Wildlife Service submitted a bureau plan.
    Senator Capito. Did you have input into the overall 
department action plan?
    Ms. Williams. Yes. I am working with the department on all 
of these issues.
    Senator Capito. What were some of the strategies and 
actions that you recommended?
    Ms. Williams. Senator Capito, I would like to follow up 
with you on that.
    Senator Capito. OK.
    Let me ask a question on FTEs. How many people are now 
working for Fish and Wildlife? What is your full time 
equivalent right now, today?
    Ms. Williams. It is over 9,000, Senator. I don't have the 
exact number.
    Senator Capito. I don't know, you are only covered for 
8,500, so you already have 500 more than you----
    Ms. Williams. OK, seasonal, so 8,500, I believe you have 
the more accurate number before you today.
    Senator Capito. And you are asking for an additional 817 in 
the resource management portion, which is, I assume, the 
Section 7 and all that. OK.
    The reason I am asking the question is, it came out in our 
meeting when you came to West Virginia, and I don't know that 
it is just our State. There were FTEs that were left unfilled 
in the office. There could have been more people working there. 
And there was budgetary authority to do that. But the 
recruitment was low. And I think the Elkins field office, to 
their credit, is now filling those positions.
    So my question is, before we would fill another 800 new 
positions, do you have your present positions, there is a 
recruitment issue with Federal Government, there is trouble 
getting our Federal employees back into the office, there is 
all kinds of agency jumping, one biologist might be in yours 
and then decide to go over to DOE or something like that.
    I guess what I am asking you is, at you at capacity now, 
full capacity, according to your budgetary constraints?
    Ms. Williams. Senator Capito, I think there are a number of 
ways for me to answer that. We are not always at full capacity 
with people moving around, and yes, we have had a specific 
focus on the West Virginia field office and building out 
capacity there, which thankfully, we have made great strides 
there.
    Yes, we also, like other Federal agencies, are always 
focused on recruiting top talent. And I would argue that the 
Fish and Wildlife Service, our employees have been hard at work 
throughout the pandemic. Some, our law enforcement and refuge 
staff on a day to day basis showing up at the refuges, and 
others remotely, which is an important tool.
    So we at times though also have vacancies without the 
funding to fill them. So part of our request is to be able to 
fill these positions, for example, in the refuge system, we 
haven't had the budget to be able to do so. So it is a 
combination.
    But having the authority to always be filling in and then 
the request in our budget I believe will allow us to do a 
better job and meet the demands the American public expects of 
us.
    Senator Capito. So in your wildlife refuge fund, I am not 
exactly sure if this is out of yours or if this is something 
that we extrapolated from your budget, you are asking for more 
people in the National Wildlife? Is that true? Wildlife Refuge 
Fund?
    Ms. Williams. Yes, Senator. We are asking for additional 
capacity within the National Wildlife Refuge system, which is 
down 25 percent in the last 20 years.
    Senator Capito. Well, as you know, our Canaan Valley, which 
we are going to go to together at some point in our futures, is 
a very beautiful spot, and obviously visited quite frequently. 
It has some of the best species, both animal species but also 
plant species, in the world.
    Thank you very much. Thanks again for your responsiveness. 
I appreciate the time you spent with us today. Thank you.
    Ms. Williams. Thank you, Senator.
    Senator Carper. Senator Capito, thanks for spending time 
with us.
    I have several more questions I want to ask for the record. 
I would like to give you the opportunity, maybe if there is a 
question or two that you have not been asked that you had hoped 
to be asked, or would like to pose a question. Then you can 
answer it, do the asking and the answering. Something you 
expected to be asked but you haven't, and you would like to 
raise it anyway. Go ahead. We don't do this for every witness, 
only the ones from Montana.
    [Laughter.]
    Ms. Williams. And whose name is Martha. Because we are 
wonderful.
    I appreciate that opportunity, sincerely appreciate that. I 
would like to take the opportunity, now that you have given it 
to me, to express or to ask why is our budget request 
important. And my answer would be that at this time, with the 
biodiversity crisis, with climate, with a once in a generation 
investment in infrastructure, that we have a chance to make a 
difference for the better, for the American people, for 
communities, and for the ecosystem functions that support all 
of us.
    So this is a very important time for these investments, and 
for us to meet this moment in time we need this increase in 
people and funding to be able to deliver.
    It has been a privilege.
    Senator Carper. Thank you for both the question and the 
answer.
    I just chatted with my staff for a moment there while you 
were responding. There is a meeting later today at the White 
House. We know the President has invited bipartisan Democrat 
and Republican leadership from the House and the Senate to try 
and make sure that we avert Armageddon in terms of our fiscal 
situation and avoid going into default. I hope we are 
successful.
    There has been increasing talk about how the issue called 
permitting reform could somehow end up playing a role to help 
get us to make sure we don't do something like a self-inflicted 
wound and default on our debt.
    I don't know if there is any correlation, the might be a 
correlation between Congress providing the kind of funding that 
the President has requested for Fish and Wildlife staff, an 
increase in staffing as we have discussed here today, that 
there may be a relationship between our willingness to do that 
and in the end, our ability to take the steps we talked about 
doing with respect to permitting reform, so that we can better 
ensure that the clean energy that is around the country gets 
there, and we do it in a way that communities are listened to 
in that process, and we do it in a way that businesses and 
industry have certainty and predictability.
    Is there a correlation, is there a relationship here?
    Ms. Williams. Chairman Carper, I am so glad you asked that. 
There is a direct correlation between the Fish and Wildlife 
Service capacity and our ability to provide the consultations 
that do not need to be a bottleneck for infrastructure projects 
and others. Where we have the capacity, we deliver. And those 
consultations can proceed smoothly and efficiently.
    But where we do not have the capacity, it becomes that much 
more difficult. I believe that we have seen over 30,000 
projects, or we have seen a large increase in projects and 
requests for consultations coming through that we have 
responded to with the capacity. We could be that much more 
efficient, we could be more proactive.
    Senator Carper. Thank you for that. Thank you for that 
comment. It confirms what I have been thinking.
    I want to again thank members of our staffs, both minority 
and majority, for their work in preparing us for this hearing. 
I want to extend my thanks to our colleagues, Democrat and 
Republican, who have joined us today. I think almost every 
committee in the Senate is meeting today, either in business 
meetings or hearings. I am grateful that we had such a good 
turnout on both sides of the aisle.
    I also want to thank you for joining us today. I want to 
thank you for your testimony today and for your willingness to 
respond to our questions. We are grateful to you for your 
continued service to this country. I am sure they are proud of 
you back in Montana, where you spent so many years of your 
life.
    As I would say in the military, we had a couple of people 
on here, including Senator Sullivan and myself, who spent quite 
a few years in the military. We also say of folks who serve in 
uniform that we value their service and appreciate their 
service. But their spouse also serves, and we want to say 
thanks to your family for allowing you to serve first Montana 
and now our country.
    Before we adjourn, I want to ask unanimous consent to 
submit for the record a variety of materials that relate to 
today's budget hearing. This is one of my favorite parts of the 
hearing, when I ask unanimous consent to do something and there 
is nobody here to object. So I am not going to object to my own 
request.
    Without objection, it is approved.
    [The referenced information was not received at time of 
print.]
    Senator Carper. Senators are going to be asked to submit 
questions for the record, and they can, and we hope they will. 
They can do that through the close of business on Tuesday, May 
30th.
    We are going to compile those questions as they submit 
them, and we are going to submit them to you and your staff. We 
are going to ask you to try to reply to us by Tuesday, June 
13th.
    Not seeing anyone else asking to be recognized at this 
time, with that, this hearing is adjourned. Thank you so much.
    [Whereupon, at 11:57 a.m., the hearing was adjourned.]

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