    [Senate Hearing 118-180]
    [From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]

                                                              S. Hrg. 118-180

                        THE U.S. FISH AND WILDLIFE SERVICE'S
                           PROPOSED FISCAL YEAR 2024 BUDGET

    =======================================================================

                                    HEARING

                                   BEFORE THE

                                  COMMITTEE ON
                          ENVIRONMENT AND PUBLIC WORKS

                              UNITED STATES SENATE

                        ONE HUNDRED EIGHTEENTH CONGRESS

                                 FIRST SESSION

                                   __________

                                  MAY 16, 2023

                                   __________

      Printed for the use of the Committee on Environment and Public Works

    [GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

            Available via the World Wide Web: http://www.govinfo.gov

                                   ________

                       U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE
    54-321 PDF                  WASHINGTON : 2024

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                   COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENT AND PUBLIC WORKS

                        ONE HUNDRED EIGHTEENTH CONGRESS

                                 FIRST SESSION

                      THOMAS R. CARPER, Delaware, Chairman
              SHELLEY MOORE CAPITO, West Virginia, Ranking Member

    BENJAMIN L. CARDIN, Maryland         KEVIN CRAMER, North Dakota
    BERNARD SANDERS, Vermont             CYNTHIA M. LUMMIS, Wyoming
    SHELDON WHITEHOUSE, Rhode Island     MARKWAYNE MULLIN, Oklahoma
    JEFF MERKLEY, Oregon                 PETE RICKETTS, Nebraska
    EDWARD J. MARKEY, Massachusetts      JOHN BOOZMAN, Arkansas
    DEBBIE STABENOW, Michigan            ROGER WICKER, Mississippi
    MARK KELLY, Arizona                  DAN SULLIVAN, Alaska
    ALEX PADILLA, California             LINDSEY O. GRAHAM, South Carolina
    JOHN FETTERMAN, Pennsylvania

                   Courtney Taylor, Democratic Staff Director
                   Adam Tomlinson, Republican Staff Director

                               C O N T E N T S

                                  ----------
                                                                       Page

                                  MAY 16, 2023

                               OPENING STATEMENTS

    Carper, Hon. Thomas R., U.S. Senator from the State of Delaware..     1
    Capito, Hon. Shelley Moore, U.S. Senator from the State of West
      Virginia.......................................................     3

                                    WITNESS

    Williams, Hon. Martha, Director, U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service,
      Department of the Interior.....................................     6
        Prepared statement...........................................     8
        Response to an additional question from:
            Senator Carper...........................................    14
            Senator Cramer...........................................    17
        Responses to additional questions from:
            Senator Ricketts.........................................    18
            Senator Boozman..........................................    21
            Senator Sullivan.........................................    25

     THE U.S. FISH AND WILDLIFE SERVICE'S PROPOSED FISCAL YEAR 2024 BUDGET

                                  ----------

                             TUESDAY, MAY 16, 2023

                                           U.S. Senate,
                     Committee on Environment and Public Works,
                                                        Washington, DC.
        The Committee met, pursuant to notice, at 10:17 a.m. in
    room 406, Dirksen Senate Office Building, Hon. Thomas R. Carper
    (Chairman of the Committee) presiding.
        Present: Senators Carper, Capito, Cardin, Whitehouse,
    Kelly, Padilla, Cramer, Lummis, Boozman, Sullivan, and
    Ricketts.

              OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. THOMAS R. CARPER,
                U.S. SENATOR FROM THE STATE OF DELAWARE

        Senator Carper. Good morning, everyone. I am happy to
    welcome everybody today and call this hearing to order.
        Today, we are here to discuss President Biden's fiscal year
    2024 budget proposal for the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service. To
    help inform our discussion, we again welcome Martha Williams, I
    told her I left my own Martha in Wilmington this morning to
    jump on a train and come down here. She said, where are you
    going? I said, I am going to go listen to another Martha.
        We are happy that you could join us today. Director of the
    Fish and Wildlife Service, before our Committee, Director
    Williams, we thank you for your service, and we thank you for
    joining us today.
        The President's budget request includes just over $2
    billion for the Fish and Wildlife Service, $2 billion. That is
    about an 18 percent increase in funding over 2023 enacted
    levels. This increase would provide much needed resources at a
    time when we are asking the agencies to do more, a lot more,
    especially to permit infrastructure projects efficiently.
        First, as habitat loss and climate change continue to drive
    biodiversity loss in our country and around the world, the
    Service's mission of conserving, protecting, and enhancing our
    Nation's wildlife and habitats has never been more critical. In
    addition, the agency's role in the Federal permitting process
    is especially important given the historic passage of the
    Bipartisan Infrastructure Law, along with the CHIPS and Science
    Act, and the Inflation Reduction Act.
        We know that the resulting investments from these laws are
    already starting to drive a revolution in clean energy
    development, infrastructure improvement, and climate
    adaptation. But as part of its mission and congressionally
    mandated responsibilities, the Service must consult with other
    agencies to ensure that we are deploying these investments, and
    permitting projects, in a way that does not jeopardize species.
        However, neither the Bipartisan Infrastructure Law, which
    we helped write literally in this room, nor the Inflation
    Reduction Act included direct funding for the Service's
    responsibilities related to permitting. So, in other words,
    Congress has increased the number of environmental reviews the
    Service must complete, but has not yet provided the resources
    the Service needs to meet this added workload. I think we have
    an obligation to do something about that, and I hope we will.
        I have heard some of our colleagues raise concerns about
    the Service's Endangered Species Act consultation process
    leading to delays and backlogs in the permitting process. Well,
    lack of agency capacity is a major contributing factor to
    bottlenecks. The President's 2024 budget would provide the
    agency with adequate resources to improve efficiencies in the
    environmental review process, while also protecting species. We
    can do both, and we must do both.
        The President's budget request also includes a $50 million
    increase for planning and consultation activities, which would
    support an additional 225 full time employees for this work.
    With this increase, the Service expects to be able to complete
    more than 280 additional formal consultations and 3,100
    additional informal consultations annually. Make no mistake:
    That will make a real difference.
        Some of our colleagues have also suggested that Congress
    should just consider bypassing the Service's role in
    permitting. But it is my strongly held belief, a belief that I
    think most of the people in our country also share, that we
    have a moral imperative to protect the species with which we
    share our one and only planet.
        What a lot of people might be surprised to learn is that
    preserving biodiversity has clear economic benefits. According
    to a 2022 report by J.P. Morgan, recent biodiversity losses
    have cost up to $20 trillion per year, that is trillion with a
    T, per year in lost ecosystem services. These services include
    protecting our food supplies as well as providing clean air and
    clean water.
        For example, our food production relies on biodiversity for
    pest control, for pollination, and for soil fertility. Healthy
    and biodiverse forests and oceans absorb more carbon dioxide.
    And we all rely on biodiverse ecosystems to provide clean water
    to drink. When we lose biodiversity, nature stops providing
    these precious services.
        While global biodiversity loss presents a real threat to
    our economy and environment, the good news is that our Nation's
    strong environmental laws help preserve biodiversity. The
    President's budget enables the Service to fulfill its
    responsibilities under these laws, which include the Migratory
    Bird Treaty Act, the Lacey Act, and the Endangered Species Act.
        The Service also manages over 850 million acres of lands
    and waters through the National Wildlife Refuge System. Some of
    the most beautiful land and water in America. The fiscal year
    2024 budget would address the major staffing shortage
    experienced across our refuge system over the last decade by
    providing funding for an additional 168 full time employees,
    such as refuge managers, law enforcement, and visitor services
    specialists.
        In Delaware, we are proud of our two national wildlife
    refuges. They are located southeast of Dover, about 50 miles
    away. They are a joy to visit, a real jewel for our country. I
    have an opportunity to visit these refuges quite frequently,
    and in fact, I am looking forward to visiting Prime Hook
    National Refuge next week to see our world famous red knots
    come by for lunch, flying from the southern part of our planet
    all the way up to the North Pole. These tiny birds stop on our
    beaches to feast on horseshoe crab eggs during their famous
    migration journey from the southern tip of South America to the
    tundra of the north Arctic. Bombay Hook and Prime Hook are
    major destinations for birdwatchers from all over the world,
    meaning these destinations support our ecotourism industry in
    Delaware, as well.
        Some people think that just because we have more five star
    beaches than any other State that that is why tourists come to
    Delaware. A lot of people come from all over the world because
    they are interested in birding, including the red knot.
        Both of our wildlife refuges have been short staffed for
    the last couple of years. We need to address this shortfall for
    our refuges in Delaware and frankly, for those refuges that are
    located around the country.
        Let me conclude by saying that when Congress tasks an
    agency with an important mission and an increased workload, we
    must in turn provide sufficient funding so that they can get
    the job done that they are expected to do. The budget we are
    discussing today recognizes this responsibility and the
    opportunity that comes with that responsibility.
        With that, we look forward to hearing more from Director
    Williams today on how the President's 2024 budget would support
    the important work that she oversees at the Fish and Wildlife
    Service.
        Before we hear from you, we look forward to hearing from
    our Ranking Member, Senator Capito, for her comments.
        Senator Capito.

            OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. SHELLEY MOORE CAPITO,
              U.S. SENATOR FROM THE STATE OF WEST VIRGINIA

        Senator Capito. Thank you, Chairman Carper, and thank you,
    Director Williams for being here. And thank you for the open
    door of communication, and the visit to West Virginia,
    certainly appreciate that.
        We have discussed in previous hearings the frustrations
    that I have had with the delays that consultation under the
    Endangered Species Act has added to projects in West Virginia
    and elsewhere. Our State Department of Transportation has faced
    delays in road and bridge projects. Our Department of
    Environmental Protection has dealt with delays in consultation
    on not only active mining permits, but also on projects to
    remediate our abandoned mine sites through the AML programs.
        Local government officials have come to me to express
    frustration with delays to water and sewer projects. And
    private industry has faced delays due to a backlog of ESA
    consultation requests.
        So you heard many of these concerns from me when you came
    to West Virginia, and when we talked on the phone most
    recently, and I appreciate the fact that you do listen and try
    to make those things better.
        I do want to acknowledge and thank the Elkins Field Office
    for its work on the biological opinions on two major projects
    in West Virginia: The Mountain Valley Pipeline and Nucor's
    sheet steel mill.
        I also want to acknowledge the additional resources that
    you have allotted in reviewing projects in West Virginia
    through creating three new full time positions in the Elkins
    Field Office, and by detailing staff from elsewhere in the
    Service to help address the backlog of project reviews in our
    State.
        However, more work is needed, and the Service must better
    utilize its resources to ensure the projects are reviewed in a
    timely manner. Section 7 consultations under the Endangered
    Species Act are the poster child for project delays and
    bureaucratic roadblocks in the Federal environment review and
    permitting process.
        Fairly or not, other agencies often cite the slow Section 7
    consultations as the justification for not advancing their own
    permitting process. The Administration continues to blame these
    delays solely on a lack of funding and staffing.
        Currently, West Virginia State agencies, the private
    sector, and even other Federal agencies are funding positions
    at the Service's Field Office in Elkins. This feels like West
    Virginians are kind of getting taxed twice to do the same work
    that the Service does.
        We even experience delays with getting the very paperwork
    in place that establishes cooperative agreements for my State's
    agencies to even use the taxpayer dollars to fund staff for the
    Field Office. The West Virginia Department of Highways has been
    funding a position at the Field Office for more than 10 years.
    Let me say that again, 10 years. Even so, the West Virginia DOH
    is willing to fund a second position at the Field Office to
    move consultations for roads and bridges through the process.
    There is a lot of money flowing on these roads and bridges
    projects.
        But unfortunately, the West Virginia DOH has been locked in
    back and forth negotiations with the Field Office for months
    over how to do just that. I do not believe that adding a second
    position with the same duties should take months to negotiate
    after 10 years of experience of working the same kind of
    agreement.
        Additionally, the Process Agreement between West Virginia
    DOH, the Federal Highways, and the Service, which we discussed
    during your visit last August, still has not been finalized
    months later. The backlog of biological assessments and
    consultations seems to never end, and recent species listings
    and rulemaking by the Service don't seem to be helping the
    problem.
        The Service admits that northern long-eared bat populations
    are declining due to effects separate and apart from
    infrastructure projects or economic development activities. One
    of the delayed projects is important to my State, the
    Coalfields Expressway, which recently received a rural grant
    through the IIJA. There are similar stories all across the
    country, and they demonstrate that there is a failure of the
    Federal Government's incoherent policies and implementation.
        Just in the past 2 weeks, the Senate has passed three
    resolutions of disapproval on Fish and Wildlife regulatory
    actions that have significant consequences on landowners and
    project developers. On the one hand, the President has been
    trumpeting the IIJA, and at the same time, the Administration
    is throwing wrench after wrench into the planning and
    construction process for key infrastructure projects.
        The Biden administration's alleged statements of support
    for key infrastructure projects do not match the actions, and
    so that historic investment, the good it can do, and the jobs
    and tax revenues it would support, is withering on the vine.
    The Service must start striking a balance between recovering
    species and protecting American livelihoods.
        With that, Mr. Chair, I turn it back to you.
        Senator Carper. Thank you, ma'am.
        You mentioned Elkins a couple of times in your statement. I
    am thinking a couple of days ago it was Mother's Day, and as
    the Ranking Member knows, my mother and father, their families
    grew up near Beckley, but my mother, the first years of her
    life, lived in Elkins.
        Senator Capito. And Mother's Day was created by a West
    Virginian.
        Senator Carper. It gets better and better.
        Senator Capito. Yes, it just all starts and ends there.
        [Laughter.]
        Senator Carper. That is great. Thanks very much, Senator
    Capito.
        Now we are going to turn to our witness, no stranger to
    this Committee, and a friend to this Committee, and a mother,
    as it turns out, in her own right.
        Martha Williams currently serves our Nation as the Director
    of the Fish and Wildlife Service. Prior to her leadership role
    at the Fish and Wildlife Service, Ms. Williams served as the
    Director of the Montana Department of Fish, Wildlife, and
    Parks.
        How long did you live in Montana?
        Ms. Williams. Over 20 years, Mr. Chairman.
        Senator Carper. Since a child, right?
        All right, I understand you are a lifelong outdoor
    enthusiast, and enjoy hiking, hunting, and fishing. I remember
    you talking with us about those passions when you were here for
    your confirmation hearing.
        Director Williams is also the mother of two wonderful
    children, Kate and Ian. How old are they now?
        Ms. Williams. Twenty and 22. Time flies.
        Senator Carper. Boy, doesn't it though.
        On behalf of our Committee, we want to wish you a happy
    belated Mother's Day, and to Kate and Ian, thank them for
    sharing their mom with us.
        Director Williams, welcome back to the Environment and
    Public Works Committee. It is good to see you. Please proceed
    with your statement when you are ready. Thank you.

      STATEMENT OF HON. MARTHA WILLIAMS, DIRECTOR, U.S. FISH AND
              WILDLIFE SERVICE, DEPARTMENT OF THE INTERIOR

        Ms. Williams. Good morning, Chairman Carper, Ranking Member
    Capito, and Members of the Committee. Thank you very much for
    the opportunity to testify on the U.S. Fish and Wildlife
    Service's fiscal year 2024 budget request.
        At the Fish and Wildlife Service, we connect people with
    nature. Our mission is working with others to conserve,
    protect, and enhance fish, wildlife, and plants and their
    habitats for the continuing benefit of the American people.
    Today, I will highlight a few of our programs for which we are
    seeking additional support.
        Our greatest asset is our talented and dedicated work
    force. They work hand in hand with our partners, amplifying our
    collective conservation efforts. That is our superpower.
        That cooperative spirit is found across the Service. And
    one example is in our Partners for Fish and Wildlife program.
    Since the program began in 1987, the Service had helped
    landowners restore more than 7 million acres of habitat on
    private lands, leveraging program funding with partner
    contributions at a four to one ratio, and completing over 1,800
    projects this last year alone.
        For fiscal year 2024, the Service is requesting a $19.5
    million increase for this Partners program. These projects not
    only benefit wildlife but also provide benefits to local
    communities through improved drought resistance, water
    conservation, and wildfire resilience.
        The success of our Partners program shows how our
    relationships are central to the Service's conservation
    mission. And this is true across other programs, including the
    Coastal Program, migratory bird joint ventures, our fish
    passage work, and more.
        Collaboration is also key to the progress we are making on
    protecting, recovering, and de-listing species under the
    Endangered Species Act. Hundreds of species are stable,
    recovering, or recovered.
        For example, 3 months ago, in partnership with the
    Department of Defense, we de-listed San Clemente's Bell sparrow
    and four other species. Two months ago, after decades of work
    across the southeast with State and local partners, we
    announced our intention to de-list the wood stork.
        We are requesting an $88.5 million increase for our
    Ecological Services Program to build on our successes and help
    recover species by bringing them back to stable populations, as
    well as supporting at risk species to prevent the need to list
    altogether.
        Ecological Service is also central to our Government's
    consultation and planning capacity to help deliver
    infrastructure projects throughout the country. Our employees
    are always looking for ways to improve efficiency, consistency,
    and transparency for our consultations. For example, we took
    the initiative to put in place an online tool designed to
    streamline consultations, help project proponents build
    stronger and more efficient consultations.
        We are also operating with 20 percent less staff than we
    had two decades ago. Expanding our work force capacity will
    help ensure that the Service's consultations aren't a
    bottleneck for projects. As we increase investment in our
    country's infrastructure, sufficient work force capacity is
    even more critical.
        The good work we are supporting across the country needs to
    be matched with responsible stewardship on the lands that the
    Service manages. Our refuge system spans more than 850 million
    acres of lands and waters, and contains 568 refuge units. The
    refuge system has grown over time. But over the past 10 years,
    staffing has decreased by nearly 25 percent.
        Our request includes an $83 million increase to help
    rebuild the work force of the refuge system. It will ensure
    that we have the law enforcement agents, visitor services
    staff, and biologists on hand to properly manage these precious
    lands and waters.
        Thank you for the opportunity to testify today. If enacted,
    this budget will make a significant difference. And of course,
    I am pleased to answer any questions that you may have.
        [The prepared statement of Ms. Williams follows:]

    [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

        Senator Carper. Ms. Williams, thanks again very much for
    joining us.
        To my colleagues, thank you all for being here, and to our
    staff, who has helped us prepare for this hearing, I want to
    say thanks to each of you as well.
        My first question deals with Endangered Species Act
    consultation and permitting. Fish and Wildlife Service, as you
    know, is responsible for consulting with other Federal agencies
    to ensure that Federal actions such as issuing permits for
    infrastructure projects, there is a lot of that going on, as
    you know, across our country, but to make sure that those
    Federal actions do not jeopardize endangered species.
        The fiscal year 2024 budget request from the Administration
    includes a substantial increase to meet this responsibility.
    The budget request also includes a legislative proposal to
    increase transfer funds from other agencies for the Service to
    consult on projects funded by the Bipartisan Infrastructure
    Law.
        My question is, would you take a minute or two to talk with
    us about why these requests in the budget are important to
    prevent bottlenecks in the environmental review process?
        Ms. Williams. Thank you for that question, Chairman Carper.
        Indeed, the consultation portion of the Endangered Species
    Act is the backbone of the Act. Countless consultations over
    the past 50 years have saved individual species and populations
    from going extinct. While they can provide for delays, we also
    complete so many of these consultations on time.
        As an example, we had over 1,000 formal consultations in
    the past year, over 11,000 informal consultations, and with the
    new tool I mentioned in my testimony, the IPaC, we also
    provided over 22,000 consultation services that didn't even get
    into the formal process.
        With that said, we have many consultations that we
    undertake. They are increasing, which is a good thing. But we
    also, as you note, need the capacity to be able to complete
    these in a timely manner. It is a matter of a relationship, as
    I have been talking about, where we exchange information back
    and forth with project proponents. And that is what makes these
    projects sometimes better and provides for conserving these
    species that are so important to the American public.
        Senator Carper. All right. Thank you.
        Let me just ask a question, we hear a lot of concerns, I am
    sure you hear them too, about consultation causing project
    delays. You referred to that. But isn't it true that the vast
    majority of consultations actually occur quickly? I would like
    you to elaborate on that, please.
        Ms. Williams. Yes, thank you, Chairman Carper. Indeed, the
    vast majority of the consultations do occur quickly. Very few
    of them provide delays. Those are typically on the more complex
    projects end, where there are more species involved.
        But I will say that we are willing to work with project
    proponents and with all of you in providing the best service we
    can. These consultations are important, and I think it is the
    few that become so controversial, and most of them go through
    more quickly on the informal basis and with no delays.
        Senator Carper. Thank you.
        A question that is more directed to Delaware, we all have
    our interests in our own States. We are interested in the whole
    country, but especially in our own States we represent.
        The Bipartisan Infrastructure Law, as you know, invested
    some $25 million, $26 million in the Delaware River watershed
    through something called the Delaware River Basin Conservation
    Act. This funding, which will be spent over, I believe it is 5
    years, will support projects that restore habitat and ensure
    that communities have vitality in their watersheds.
        I understand that demand for this funding exceeds available
    dollars. So it makes sense that the Service would continue to
    request regular appropriations despite the influx of funding
    from the Bipartisan Infrastructure Law.
        Here is my question. Would you take a moment to elaborate
    for us on the Service's support for this program? Is it true
    that you have received more proposals than you can fund?
        Ms. Williams. Thank you, Chairman Carper.
        Yes, that is true. For the Delaware River Basin Act, we
    received far more requests or proposals than we are able to
    fund. This is true, I believe, across the board, across the
    country with programs like this that are collaborative in
    nature, where we work with so many different partners and
    leverage funds to get really important work done on the ground.
        Here is an example, just this year, where we are working to
    restore habitats in Blackbird Creek Watershed in Delaware
    alone, where we have worked with States and other partners, we
    typically work with NGOs as well, to create 22 acres of dynamic
    coastal habitat. What that does is it addresses poorly buffered
    riparian corridors, it improves water quality and habitat
    connectivity, it improves coastal resilience, as you are so
    well aware of, and community protection.
        So yes, this is a really good example of good government,
    where we are taking proposals from communities and partners and
    helping to get that work on the ground.
        Senator Carper. Thanks for your responses to those
    questions.
        Let me turn to Senator Capito for whatever questions she
    would like to ask.
        Senator Capito. Thank you.
        As I mentioned in my opening statement, West Virginia State
    agencies are now funding multiple folks in the Service's Elkins
    field office to obtain the Section 7 consultations. Two weeks
    ago, I introduced the RESTART Act with members of this
    Committee. The bill includes a program that would allow for
    States to assume the Section 7 responsibility of the Service.
    There is precedent for States assuming a Federal agency's
    responsibility under other environmental laws, like NEPA.
        So my assumption would be, more efficient for States rather
    than using their funds to pay for Federal staff to do the same
    work indirectly, to do it more directly through the State, and
    it would help resolve the apparent staffing issues facing the
    Service.
        I think I know what you are going to say to this, but I am
    going to ask it anyway. Do you support an assumption program
    for Section 7 consultations by the States?
        Ms. Williams. Thank you, Senator.
        I have not seen the text yet, but of course I support
    assistance in achieving these consultations. I would like to
    not have to use transfer authority, I would like to not have to
    ask other agencies to help support our capacity to complete our
    work. Hence the budget request before you today.
        I know that increased capacity is not always the answer. In
    this instance, it is important.
        Senator Capito. Are there other ways your Service could
    work with the States to sort of ameliorate these programs?
        Ms. Williams. Senator Capito, yes. An example is the IPaC
    process. I think for us to work with the States in obtaining
    information and streamlining project proposals, absolutely, it
    is constantly building that relationship. So yes, there are
    ways to work with the States. I hope that we already do. Some
    State agencies, as you have indicated, we have an easier time
    coming up with memoranda and agreements. But we know it is
    always important to build off that relationship.
        So we do work hand in hand, and should.
        Senator Capito. And should, yes.
        You and I have talked repeatedly about my concern with the
    uplisting of the northern long-eared bat from threatened to
    endangered. I do appreciate that the Service delayed the
    effective date of this listing to further consult with
    stakeholders on the transition.
        According to your own agency, bat populations are declining
    due to white-nose syndrome. Has the Service explored the
    possibility of allowing 4(d) rules for endangered species that
    are listed due to effects unrelated to infrastructure
    development, such as white-nose syndrome?
        Ms. Williams. Thank you, Senator Capito, for that question.
        Yes, it is something we certainly would consider, but don't
    feel the Endangered Species Act allows us to have a 4(d) rule
    with an endangered status.
        With that said, in the delayed effective date for the
    uplisting from threatened to endangered for the northern long-
    eared bat, we have been working with our partners to get those
    assurances in place and allow both protection for the bat and
    for projects to move forward.
        So while a 4(d) rule technically is not available for
    endangered status, we still have lots of options to work with
    our partners, and certainly have a long track record of doing
    so with bats, Indiana bats, for example, and northern long-
    eared bats.
        Senator Capito. Obviously, that particular bat, the
    northern long-eared bat, is found in 37, 38 States.
        Ms. Williams. Yes.
        Senator Capito. I asked you this on the phone the other
    day, but I just want to get it out, the Service is planning to
    vaccinate bats to prevent white-nose syndrome. What is the
    progress on that?
        Ms. Williams. Thank you for that question, too, Senator
    Capito.
        We are trying to approach white-nose syndrome in a number
    of ways. One is to conserve bats that are still existing, so
    that they are still around for when we do find a solution for
    white-nose syndrome. One option that we are researching is
    vaccines for bats, but there are a whole number of projects
    that we are working with all of our partners to try to find a
    solution to white-nose syndrome. And I think we have made some
    progress. But we certainly haven't solved it.
        Senator Capito. Thank you.
        Senator Carper. Senator Padilla, welcome. You are next. Go
    ahead.
        Senator Padilla. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        Director Williams, good morning. It is good to see you here
    in person. I want to thank you for testifying on the fiscal
    year 2024 budget, and I look forward to continuing our work
    together, not just as a member of the Committee, but through my
    role as Chairman of the Subcommittee with oversight over the
    Fish and Wildlife Service.
        I would begin by asking you about the legislative proposal
    in the President's budget to extend good neighbor authority and
    stewardship contracting authority to the Service. I think it is
    a smart idea, frankly, because I have seen how this authority,
    which currently only the Forest Service and the Bureau of Land
    Management have, has enabled the Federal Government to work
    with the State of California to address critical land
    restoration needs.
        Would you spend a few minutes just explaining how these
    authorities to the Fish and Wildlife Service would work, and
    how it would improve the Service's ability to both manage
    public lands and benefit private lands?
        Ms. Williams. Thank you, Senator Padilla. It is good to see
    you this morning.
        Our budget request included three legislative requests,
    one, as Chairman Carper mentioned, for transfer authority, and
    then also the good neighbor authority, and the stewardship
    contracting authority.
        So as you mentioned, these have been incredibly successful
    and helpful for the Forest Service and the BLM. We, the Fish
    and Wildlife Service, would like to be able to take advantage
    of this authority.
        What the good neighbor authority does is it really allows
    us to enter into agreements with adjacent landowners or
    partners to perform watershed, rangeland, forest restoration
    work on Fish and Wildlife Service lands. It is part of building
    those strong community relationships.
        The stewardship contracting authority would allow these
    non-Federal partners to enter into long term contracts to
    protect the habitat quality on Service lands in exchange, for
    example, for timber or other forest products.
        So both would be incredibly helpful in building on our
    relationships, and really providing some innovation on the
    lands that we manage.
        Senator Padilla. I look forward to working with you to
    advance those proposals through the Senate, through the House,
    and to implement them when they are finally official.
        I want to take us back to your confirmation hearing for a
    minute. If you recall, I spoke about how I have made equitable
    access to nature and wildlife a priority of mine. Like 80
    percent of Americans, I grew up in an urban area, specifically
    the densely populated Southern California region, city of Los
    Angeles, more specifically where many communities are unable to
    connect, frankly, with local biodiversity and the natural
    world, for a number of reasons.
        Moreover, in many local communities even trees and parks
    are scarce, and pavement is prevalent. I mention pavement,
    because when you have enough pavement, when you hit that
    critical mass, you end up creating urban heat islands, which
    has the additional effect of keeping kids indoors, particularly
    in the summertime.
        I am concerned that urban communities, and particularly our
    children, do not have the opportunity to connect with nature
    and enjoy the benefits of connecting with nature. Director
    Williams, can you speak about the importance of the Service's
    Urban Wildlife Conservation program and how your budget request
    will help increase access to the outdoors for so many Americans
    who do live in urban areas?
        Ms. Williams. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
        Senator Padilla, as I started my comments this morning, I
    stated that the Fish and Wildlife Service's role is to connect
    nature to people or to connect people with nature. So why
    wouldn't that mean in rural and urban areas across the country?
        One of the values of the National Wildlife Refuge System is
    that those refuges are across the country in urban and rural
    communities, and are very much part of the community, and
    should be. At the moment, we have a focus on the Urban Wildlife
    Conservation Program, so that includes urban refuges, but it
    also includes urban migratory bird treaty cities to connect
    people in urban areas with nature.
        I just 2 weeks ago was in Boise, Idaho, with the Secretary
    where each year we provide $1 million going forward for an
    urban refuge. And it was awarded to Boise, there at the Deer
    Flat Refuge, because of the work they have done with the
    community, especially in an Hispanic access organization and
    getting kids to the refuge.
        I have to say it was one of the best events that I have
    been to. The backdrop of where the Secretary spoke was a
    sandbox where all the kids were playing. That was probably more
    fun than all the rest of the event to see them outside, and
    taking advantage of this area.
        So, Senator, I would love more support in the budget
    request for increased money for urban refuges.
        One last point on this, what we have learned through our
    Urban Conservation Program, we have developed what we call
    standards of excellence for this program that I would like to
    apply across the Fish and Wildlife Service, and that is,
    showing up in the community, meeting people where they are,
    asking the community what they want and need, and to really be
    better partners within the community. So I see that as a model
    across the board for the Fish and Wildlife Service. Thank you.
        Senator Padilla. Thank you very much.
        Thank you, Mr. Chair.
        Senator Carper. Thank you.
        Senator Cramer, you are next, then followed by Senate
    Whitehouse, and then Senator Lummis.
        Senator Cramer. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        Thank you, Ms. Williams, for being here.
        Lake Ilo National Wildlife Refuge is a Fish and Wildlife
    Service managed refuge near Dunn Center, North Dakota.
    Recently, my office was inundated by calls because the way the
    Fish and Wildlife Service dealt with, the local management
    dealt with seepage in an earthen dam, which needs to be dealt
    with, obviously, was to drain it, drain the lake in April.
    Evidently, again, only concerned citizens call, but evidently
    without very good communications with them or the local
    communities.
        Now, of course, the local groups are dealing with the
    fallout of that. These are some pictures of the fallout from
    that. As you can see, they are cleaning up the dead fish. It is
    unsightly, to say the least, and other bad qualities.
        My bigger concern, and that is a big concern, but my bigger
    concern is that the permanent fix that the Service has been
    working on isn't expected to be completed for a couple of
    years. This is kind of a big, immediate problem. I am pleading
    with you to work with me, tell me how I can help you fix this
    earthen dam sooner than a couple of years from now. Because
    another spring would be really, really difficult like this.
        So can we try to work it faster, please?
        Ms. Williams. Senator Cramer, I see the photos. I am aware
    of this issue, and yes, it is really unfortunate and one of the
    not fun things that we get to work on. Obviously, our primary
    concern is for the public safety of this dam, hence the draw
    down. My understanding is that we are working to get the design
    complete, and understand too the need to do this as quickly as
    possible.
        I apologize if we haven't worked well with the community. I
    know that we have tried. I even saw some photos from a
    listening session with the county.
        But I would like to work with you on this and can
    understand that it is very unfortunate.
        Senator Cramer. I think the communication problem was more
    the timing that you actually had mentioned getting to it.
        One of the issues, while it is a recreational area, it is
    also used a lot by agriculture. So when a farmer comes to a
    spring in the drought area, and their source of water is gone,
    you understand all that. I want to help you do this a year
    sooner, if we can do that.
        Ms. Williams. Thank you, Senator.
        One thing I read, too, one of the comments from one of your
    constituents, was that there used to be a refuge employee there
    at the Lake Ilo National Wildlife Refuge. Because of our
    capacity issue with refuges, we have dropped 25 percent of our
    capacity. The increased budget request would help us have
    somebody, an employee at Lake Ilo National Wildlife Refuge, to
    work with your constituents on a more frequent basis. That
    would be a benefit.
        Senator Cramer. It would be. Thank you for that.
        Now, back to my favorite topic with you, waterfowl
    protection area easement mapping. Now, we have made some nice
    progress on pre-1976 mapping, getting the digital maps, the
    satellite maps, to our landowners who have the easements. That
    has certainly improved the look of things, and we have a better
    understanding of what is actually an easement and what isn't.
        Unfortunately, I am hearing that new easements are not
    receiving satellite maps. Again, I don't know if this is, what
    the issue is. But again, please help me. What I worry about is
    not just not having a certain high tech literal map of an
    easement. But it further erodes confidence between the
    landowner and the Service.
        The other thing, while I am on easements, we also would
    like to get to a 95 percent certainty standard, which is what
    the NRCS at USDA has for their easements, rather than the 99
    percent that the Service uses. Just reconciling all of this I
    think would help everybody better understand what they are
    dealing with.
        As you know, there is a lot of confusion on whether some
    people are dealing with the Fish and Wildlife Service or USDA,
    not your problem. But to the degree we can reconcile some of
    these things, the better.
        What do you know about the satellite maps with new
    easements? Is that true or what is the challenge?
        Ms. Williams. Senator Cramer, first, I want to pull back a
    minute and recognize the work we have done together. I think, I
    hope you see we have improved this situation where we for the
    first time have a national handbook on wetland easements. We
    have clarified that refuge managers, not law enforcement
    agents, are responsible for managing easements. We have
    completed the pre-1976 mapping and appeal process. We have
    codified for clarity in transportation drain tile setbacks.
        So yes, now we are starting this new process. My
    understanding is that we are working to provide these color
    satellite photos for the new easements. I don't have the
    totally up to date information, but that is something we were
    aware of. It is a helpful tool, and we would like to be able to
    provide it.
        Senator Cramer. I appreciate all of that, and we can talk
    about it more later.
        The 95 percent versus 99 percent deals specifically with
    the drain tile confidence threshold. Just reconciling that with
    the USDA would be great. Thank you.
        Ms. Williams. Senator Cramer, I would say I am working
    diligently, It is something I am very proud of in this
    Administration, across agencies. And I would like to be
    consistent with the NRCS. I do understand that that is helpful,
    to not have discrepancies amongst agencies.
        Senator Cramer. A lot of silos in the Federal Government. I
    appreciate your working across them.
        Thank you.
        Senator Capito [presiding]. Senator Whitehouse.
        Senator Whitehouse. Thank you very much.
        Thank you very much for being here, Director.
        A year ago, I asked you about the effort of the Fish and
    Wildlife Service with respect to oceans and coasts, because I
    constantly see underrepresentation of oceans and coasts work
    across the Federal Government. The Army Corps flood program has
    dedicated as little as 1 percent of its money to coasts. The
    Land and Water Conservation Fund heavily favors upland and
    freshwater States and upland and freshwater projects in coastal
    States.
        So we who have coastal States and a very significant ocean
    environment right offshore feel very often that we don't get
    much attention. Could you let me know what if any improvements
    have been made in the past year, so that the oceans part of the
    United States of America is given something resembling even
    handed treatment compared to upland and freshwater?
        Ms. Williams. Senator Whitehouse, I remember that question,
    and I think of it often. One way is our request for the
    increase for our Coastal Program, and our Coastal Program is
    similar to Partners for Fish and Wildlife and other
    collaborative programs, where we provide technical and
    financial assistance to partners to restore and improve coastal
    habitat on public and private lands.
        With that said, Senator, I very much understand and
    appreciate the critical role that these coastal lands play, not
    just uplands, but coastal wetlands are the first defense
    against sea level rise and storms, water quality, flood
    control, et cetera.
        Senator Whitehouse. Offshore fisheries, and reefs, and
    things like that.
        Ms. Williams. Critical to species. What has improved, I
    believe, Senator Whitehouse, is that we are working very
    closely, I am working very closely with Janet Coit from NOAA on
    all of our programs going forward.
        Senator Whitehouse. Yes, she is aware of Rhode Island's
    problems, having worked as the Rhode Island Department of
    Environmental Management Director.
        The scale of this is really pretty staggering. The figure I
    use is zeta joules, the joule being the unit of measure of heat
    energy, zeta being a number that has 21 zeroes behind it. It is
    enormous. To put scale to that enormous number of zeroes, the
    entire human consumption of energy on the planet runs at about
    half a zeta joule. So it is a damn big number.
        For the price of that, because of carbon emissions, and
    because of the magnification effect of the carbon emissions in
    the atmosphere, the oceans have been estimated to be absorbing
    14 zeta joules of heat every year, multiple Hiroshima level
    explosions worth of heat per second happening in the oceans.
        So it is really a dramatic effect. And it is not just a
    fraction of our fossil fuel energy expenditure, it is a vast
    multiple. So the oceans are taking a beating far in excess of
    the actual heat value of fossil fuel, or result of fossil fuel
    emissions. So I think it is really important that we pay
    attention to that.
        If you don't mind, we talk often about the monetary value
    of wildlife. But I would like to ask you, if the only value of
    wildlife is seen as what can be monetized, will we do a decent
    job of protecting our wildlife, particularly at a time
    described as a great extinction?
        Ms. Williams. Senator Whitehouse, while trying to calculate
    the monetary value of wildlife can be a helpful tool, it is by
    no means the only tool. And part of, I think about the support
    for wildlife in this country, is the emotional well being and
    the sense of awe that wildlife invokes in all of us. Even the
    most ardent detractors, still when they see an elephant or
    landowners who----
        Senator Whitehouse. Or a red knot that flew to Delaware
    from Brazil. An impressive feat for a little bird.
        Ms. Williams. Right, these incredible stories.
        Senator Whitehouse. Well, thank you. Keep that in mind,
    because I think there is a persistent effort to limit our
    effort to support wildlife and hold off the great extinction to
    only what can be monetized. And I think we agree that what can
    be monetized is only a small fraction of the actual value of a
    healthy ecosystem with robust wildlife.
        Thank you.
        Ms. Williams. Thank you. Beautifully said.
        Senator Capito. Thank you.
        Senator Lummis.
        Senator Lummis. Thank you, Madam Chairman.
        Ms. Williams, thanks for always being accessible. Even
    though we don't agree on everything, you have been very
    pleasant to work with, and we appreciate that, and very
    accessible.
        I know that you would be surprised if I didn't bring up the
    grizzly bear, so I will bring it up first. The Fish and
    Wildlife Service is now 4 months overdue on the 12 month review
    of the State's de-listing petition. And I know you have had
    conversation with the Wyoming Game and Fish on this.
        Can you provide me with an update on the timeline?
        Ms. Williams. Yes, Senator Lummis, very attuned to this
    issue, because I care about it, and I want to make progress. I
    think it is one of the success stories, and a story we should
    be able to tell of how we have conserved and restored grizzly
    bears.
        Indeed, we, the Fish and Wildlife Service, we were behind
    on the 90 day petitions, where the three States, Wyoming,
    Idaho, and Montana, petitioned the Fish and Wildlife Service to
    delist grizzly bears. So we were behind in finding both
    Montana's and Wyoming's petitions to warrant further review,
    and we declined Idaho's petition, for which I think we are just
    about to be challenged on that petition.
        What that did, though, while we were behind in those
    findings, is we now go through a 12 month petition review, it
    is called, where we take the 90 day finding and go in deeper to
    develop either a proposed de-listing rule or a finding that de-
    listing isn't warranted. So we are going through that process
    right now, diligently. And as both you and I understand, we
    need to do that following the science and with care, so that
    any solution is durable.
        What I don't want to see, and I don't think any of us want
    to see, is flip-flops or delays from litigation. I want to get
    the rules just right.
        Senator Lummis. Well, I urge you to act with vigor on this
    petition. The grizzly has been recovered for 20 years, 20
    years. Yet it is still on the list. To me, that sort of negates
    the whole purpose of the Endangered Species Act, when it has
    been acknowledged that the recovery numbers have been
    consistently met and exceeded since 2003, and yet this species
    is still listed.
        I would just encourage you to act with vigor.
        Ms. Williams. Senator Lummis, the irony is not lost on me
    of my past career in working on wolves where in Montana we were
    working with Wyoming on adequate regulatory mechanisms. And now
    we are trying to work closely with the State of Montana to help
    them have the adequate regulatory mechanisms in place to be
    able to get to a de-listing. Thank you.
        Senator Lummis. Now I am going to switch over to the
    critical habitat designations. As Ranking Member Capito noted,
    there have been three different bipartisan resolutions of
    disapproval to U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service actions. That I
    think should put the Service on notice that the Congress thinks
    that some re-visiting of the approaches you are taking to
    definitions of critical habitat and the manner in which certain
    species are being evaluated could use some rethinking.
        So I just encourage you to do that. It is actually quite a
    thing for the Congress to pass Congressional Review Act matters
    and resolutions of disapproval. So to have three come in front
    of the Service in such a short time I think should give you all
    pause.
        With that said, I would like to ask something about
    migration corridors. There is great bipartisan interest across
    11 western States for elk, mule deer, and pronghorn migration
    corridors. How does the Service's budget request treat
    migration corridors?
        Ms. Williams. Senator Lummis, thank you for that question.
        I do recognize the overwhelming support for migration
    corridors. Just last week, unfortunately I was not able to go
    to it, but there was a meeting in Tucson where Deputy Secretary
    Tommy Beaudreau announced funding, I think it was $4 million
    for migration corridors. Our budget request does build in
    corridors. I can't remember the exact number for that, and I
    can get it to you. But I very much would believe it is
    important, it builds support for these really important
    movements. It gets to the sense of awe and migration in
    wildlife, too.
        So I will get you the exact number. I appreciate your
    support, and I think it is very important.
        Senator Lummis. No worries. We will follow up with you.
        Thank you for being here.
        I yield back.
        Senator Carper [presiding]. All right. Thank you.
        Senator Ricketts, Senator Capito and I flipped a coin to
    see whether you would be next or Senator Boozman. Senator
    Ricketts, you won it this time.
        [Laughter.]
        Senator Ricketts. Great. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.
        Thank you, Ms. Williams, for being here today.
        When you think about Fish and Wildlife, you all establish
    goals and metrics for some of the topics you want to do, like
    how you measure success, is that fair?
        Ms. Williams. Yes, Senator.
        Senator Ricketts. Would you agree it is important to
    actually have definitions or goals when you are trying to
    achieve something, a particular plan?
        Ms. Williams. Generally, yes, Senator.
        Senator Ricketts. OK. And in reading through the Fish and
    Wildlife proposed budget, the President's 30x30 environmental
    program is specifically mentioned there. One of the important
    things in the executive summary says, ``The Service is a key
    player in the Administration's goal for an ambitious America
    the Beautiful Initiative.'' And America the Beautiful is what
    used to be called the 30x30 plan, which is to put 30 percent of
    the United States into conservation by the year 2030. It goes
    back to President Biden's Executive Order 14008 that he
    published on January 27th of 2021. Is that accurate?
        Ms. Williams. Yes.
        Senator Ricketts. So in that goal to conserve 30 percent of
    the United States, what is the definition of conservation? How
    are you defining conservation?
        Ms. Williams. Senator Ricketts, with this question, I have
    paid close attention, obviously, to the America the Beautiful
    initiative, and specifically to your State, working with the
    other State directors and with the Association of Fish and
    Wildlife Agencies. Understanding from the Fish and Wildlife
    Service's perspective, conservation includes the principles by
    which the America the Beautiful initiative was put in place.
    That includes respecting private property rights, focusing on
    collaborative, community based conservation.
        If you see our budget request for Partners Program, for the
    Coastal Program, we at the Fish and Wildlife Service are taking
    the America the Beautiful initiative and asking for the
    capacity and funding for building those community based
    partnership programs.
        Senator Ricketts. So one definition that some of the
    environmental groups have put out there have said to
    permanently protect in the natural state. Does that mean you
    disagree with that statement, that conservation does not mean
    to permanently protect in the natural state?
        Ms. Williams. Senator, that could be one way to define
    conservation, but there are many including----
        Senator Ricketts. Don't you have to have a definition of
    conservation to be able to say 30 percent of the United States
    is conserved? Don't you have to have a definition of that
    before you can even reach that goal?
        Ms. Williams. Senator, as I said, I think there are many
    ways to talk about conservation----
        Senator Ricketts. But if there are many ways to talk about
    conservation, then how can you know if you actually reach that
    goal? Because if there are many ways to talk about it, you
    could have a definition, I could have a definition. But that
    may mean that we are not at 30 percent in my view and is in 30
    percent in your view.
        Ms. Williams. Senator, in implementing the America the
    Beautiful at the Fish and Wildlife Service we are focused on
    our approach, the approach that that initiative set out. I am
    personally less focused on the numbers and more focused on the
    approach and making progress with all of our partners.
        Senator Ricketts. So when you say you are a key player in
    the America the Beautiful, you don't really mean getting to 30
    percent of the country conserved by 2030, then?
        Ms. Williams. Senator, that is an audacious goal that I
    would love to achieve.
        Senator Ricketts. So, but if you would love to achieve it,
    how can you achieve it if you won't define conservation and
    what conservation means? How can you achieve 30 percent if you
    can't even define what conservation means?
        Ms. Williams. Senator, we can achieve it by working with
    others in all the ways that the America the Beautiful
    initiative sets out, which includes, as I have said, a number
    of ways to achieve conservation. What might be conservation in
    your State might look different than what conservation efforts
    would be in Senator Whitehouse's State, coastal versus prairie.
        Senator Ricketts. But then you can never get to 30 percent,
    because if you are going to change the definitions, you don't
    even know if you have ever reached there. Right?
        Ms. Williams. No, I don't agree with that, but Senator, I
    am happy to visit with you more. We have not had a chance to
    meet and talk before today's hearing, so I am happy to come
    visit and talk through this with you. What I care about is how
    we are implementing and doing our work in your State.
        Senator Ricketts. So in your budget, how much of your
    budget is going to the America the Beautiful plan?
        Ms. Williams. Senator, we don't have a line item for the
    America the Beautiful plan, or the initiative. What our budget
    request asks for, as I started my testimony today, for example,
    a $19 million increase in our Partners for Fish and Wildlife
    Program, which is most pertinent in your State. So that
    contributes toward the America the Beautiful initiative, as
    does our Coastal program, as does our request for joint
    ventures for migratory birds, working with our partners, as
    does our habitat budget request for the refuge system.
        So there are ways in which we address conservation
    throughout our budget that recognize the various types of
    conservation we can achieve.
        Senator Ricketts. OK, thank you. Thank you, Ms. Williams.
        Thank you, Chairman.
        Senator Carper. When Ms. Williams was first nominated for
    this post, she had come to us from Montana where she had worked
    for the Governor of Montana, as I recall. She indicated in her
    responses to our questions that she would be responsive, and
    would certainly be willing to sit down and talk with us, our
    staffs, and to come to our States. Sometimes nominees make
    those promises, they don't keep them. She has kept them. And I
    would urge you to take advantage of that.
        Senator Ricketts. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        Ms. Williams. Thank you.
        Senator Carper. All right.
        Senator Boozman, please.
        Senator Boozman. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you,
    Ms. Williams, for being here. We appreciate all of your hard
    work.
        We have had the opportunity to visit. We have raised
    concerns about the Ninth Circuit's 2015 Cottonwood decision.
    There you have a situation kind of like Senator Ricketts was
    talking about, you have different people who have different
    views of conservation and maybe use different methods to block
    things.
        Because of that, we have a situation where it is difficult
    for the Forest Service to get things done. We have talked about
    rulemaking and things. Can you tell us how that is progressing,
    or if it is progressing, and the necessity for doing that?
        Ms. Williams. Thank you, Senator Boozman. I just have to
    say I had hoped to be in your fair State next weekend where my
    son is racing, in Fayetteville, and I look forward to meeting
    you out there, not just here.
        Senator Boozman. The biking capital of the world.
        Ms. Williams. The biking capital of the world. And we have
    talked about the Cottonwood decision. What I would say is, and
    I am very proud of this, as I mentioned earlier, in our work
    across the agencies in this Administration. So the Department
    of the Interior, we have worked closely with U.S. Department of
    Agriculture on this issue where we together provided technical
    assistance on Senate legislation in the past. And we stand
    ready to provide technical assistance going forward and helping
    you through this process.
        Senator Boozman. So you would like for us to do it, but you
    are not going to do any rulemaking?
        Ms. Williams. Senator, I believe that the better solution
    is through the legislation and the work that we did with USDA
    to provide technical assistance. I think that is a better fix
    than regulation.
        Senator Boozman. Tell me about the September 2022 U.S. Fish
    and Wildlife final rule that prohibits the use of lead fishing
    tackle and ammunition on nine individual wildlife refuges. Do
    you have any scientific data backing that up? Is there a study
    that says that there is harm? Can you tell me about that?
        Ms. Williams. Senator Boozman, yes, I am glad you asked
    about lead on national wildlife refuges. I do think there is
    lots of different information out there, and confusion.
        First off, we all know and realize that lead has negative
    impacts on the environment. As an example, there was just this
    year a study from USGS, I think the Journal of Wildlife
    Management, that demonstrated the negative impacts of lead on
    eagle populations, for example.
        When I was the Director of Montana Fish, Wildlife, and
    Parks, we had a rehabilitation center. I remember going to see
    a bald eagle that had lead poisoning. If you have seen it, it
    can cause paralysis, death, tissue deterioration, behavioral
    changes. It is real, and it is not something that is very
    pleasant to see. We also know, the science shows specific
    impacts on condors. For example, 120 condors have died from
    lead poisoning.
        Nonetheless, for the Fish and Wildlife Service, we are not
    promulgating a rule prohibiting lead across the system.
    Instead, what we are doing is working with the Hunting and
    Wildlife Conservation Council--thank you for being on the
    Migratory Bird Conservation Council--and we are working with a
    joint task force of the Association of Fish and Wildlife
    Agencies, to find a way forward to limit lead on the landscape
    and think of a way to have affordable, non-lead ammunition, so
    that we don't impact access.
        Hunting is still very important on our refuges. But we
    would also like to be able to address the impact of lead and
    are working with partners and want to work with partners to
    find a long term solution for that.
        Senator Boozman. Very good. We appreciate all of your
    efforts on the Migratory Bird Commission. That is something
    that is a great success. I think it is really a good example of
    how all kinds of strange bedfellows came together, which is
    generally a really good thing, for a common goal that made a
    big difference. Give yourself a pat for your work in that
    effort also. Thank you.
        Ms. Williams. Thank you.
        Senator Boozman. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        Senator Carper. Senator Boozman, thank you for those
    questions.
        I have a couple of questions, then Senator Capito has a
    few. We have about 12 more members waiting outside in the hall,
    we are going to unlock the doors and let them in to grill you a
    little bit longer.
        [Laughter.]
        Senator Carper. My next question, this is a question that
    deals with science, science based decisionmaking. When the Fish
    and Wildlife Service makes their determinations regarding a
    species, I am told it does so based on best available science.
    This means that sometimes the Service proposes to protect
    species and habitats in ways that are politically unpopular for
    some constituencies.
        For example, the Service must take climate science into
    account and must provide protection for species, even when it
    means the regulations may impact industries that aren't causing
    the species' decline. What gets less attention are all of the
    ways the Service collaborates with States, with Tribes, with
    local governments, with industry and other conservation
    partners, to provide the flexibility and the assistance in
    implementing these decisions.
        Would you talk with us for a minute or two about why it is
    important that science remains at the heart of the Service's
    decisionmaking? Will you also share with us on this Committee
    today what happens after the Fish and Wildlife Service takes a
    regulatory action and all of the ways in which you work with
    stakeholders on implementation?
        Ms. Williams. Thank you, Chairman Carper, for that
    question.
        Certainly, science underpins all that we do at the Fish and
    Wildlife Service. We implement, for example, the Endangered
    Species Act based on the science and the law, which yes,
    indeed, often brings us into the crosshairs of controversy.
        But I would argue, Senator, that our job is to adhere to
    the science and to adhere to the law. Sometimes, rarely do I
    make a decision that is popular or liked by all. I just can't
    imagine one, that often they are controversial.
        Nonetheless, the science, the law underpins our work, and
    we too recognize we must build strong relationships with our
    partners, whether it is NGOs, whether it is Tribes, whether it
    is States and local communities and industries, too. Often
    there is a lot of interest in an uplisting of a species like
    the northern long-eared bat, a listing of species like lesser
    prairie chicken.
        We would not move forward with those proposals if we didn't
    think we had the science telling us to do so. We know we are
    entering the crosshairs in doing this. But the science is very
    clear on species, those two species especially.
        Our work with the States and our partners is never done. We
    can never communicate too much. My hat is off to the Fish and
    Wildlife Service employees and USGS, other scientists who help
    us deliver that science on the ground. We are a decentralized
    agency, so we do rely on those employees on the ground, hence
    this budget request.
        I hope I have answered your question, Senator.
        Senator Carper. I think you have.
        I am going to ask another question, and I will ask you to
    answer briefly, if you would, please. Then we will yield to
    Senator Cardin and then back to Senator Capito.
        Would you elaborate on the importance of the Science
    Applications Program? Further, what might the Service be able
    to accomplish with the funding you have requested for this
    program in the fiscal year 2024 budget? Then we will turn to
    Senator Cardin.
        Ms. Williams. Thank you for asking that question, Chairman
    Carper, because it is a program that often goes unnoticed. Our
    budget request does include an increase for the Science
    Applications Program, which has been grossly underfunded in the
    past couple of years, I think in part because people don't
    always remember or know what Science Applications does.
    Sometimes our best work does go, we undertake it under the
    radar.
        The Science Applications essentially works with partners to
    provide science. An example currently is that we have developed
    a joint task force with the Association of Fish and Wildlife
    Agencies on landscape conservation. This is where the States
    have come to us and asked for support from Science Applications
    in building out this process. And without this funding, we
    would not be able to address the concerns of the States, and/or
    be forward thinking in landscape conservation.
        So Science Applications is similar to the Partners Program,
    the Coastal Program where we leverage moneys from other
    processes and provide technical assistance, and as you asked,
    the critical science to be making sound decisions. It is very
    important.
        Senator Carper. Good. Thank you for that response.
        Senator Cardin, welcome, and thank you.
        Senator Cardin. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        Let me thank Ms. Williams for her leadership at Fish and
    Wildlife.
        You are one of our major stakeholders in our efforts in
    Maryland to deal with our coastal area habitats and to deal
    with the Chesapeake Bay.
        I am going to ask you a few questions in regard to specific
    budget items. In most cases, I am pleased, in one case I am
    not, and I will go over that with you.
        First, in regard to the Neotropical Migratory Bird
    Conservation, I am glad to see a significant increase in the
    President's budget. This has been a bipartisan effort in our
    Committee to deal with the realities of neotropical migratory
    birds that are well beyond our shores. A lot of these funds are
    used in other countries in our hemisphere, where we have
    migratory birds that come into the United States.
        First, thank you, and any comments you have as to how those
    additional funds would be utilized.
        Ms. Williams. Yes, Senator Cardin, I am so glad you asked
    about this program. The neotropical migratory birds are so
    important at the moment. The demand for the program far exceeds
    our funding, so our budget request bumps up to the demand that
    we have been seeing of $10 million, whereas we only have
    funding for $5 million.
        I want to give you a really specific example of a bird that
    I know you and I both care about, and that is the Baltimore
    oriole.
        Senator Cardin. It has been doing better of late.
        [Laughter.]
        Ms. Williams. I would like to go to a game this year.
        For Mother's Day, I was thinking about Mother's Day and
    being so grateful to my mother and my children, and really,
    Mother Earth, what we are all talking about here. I was lucky
    enough on Mother's Day to sit and watch a Baltimore oriole come
    into the same spot in a sycamore tree where I had seen it build
    its nest. It came around and chose its spot and started to
    build its nest.
        That is thanks to the Neotropical Migratory Bird Program
    that helps conserve these birds as they migrate out of the
    country, and those stopovers and wintering grounds are just as
    important as when they are here.
        Senator Cardin. I was in Ecuador and Colombia, which both
    raved about our Neotropical Migratory Bird Program, how
    important it is in regard to their game plans.
        Let me get a little bit to our wildlife refuges. We in
    Maryland are proud to have five. Your budget, I want to make
    sure it is adequate because we want it to be six. We have a
    proposed new refuge in the southern part of our State.
        Are there adequate resources in order to not only preserve
    but expand our wildlife refuges?
        Ms. Williams. Senator Cardin, not at all. One of my
    priorities while I am in this position is to get more support
    for our incredible national wildlife refuge system that has
    been chronically underfunded and where we are understaffed,
    whether from law enforcement, visitor services, biologists on
    the ground.
        So these refuges, as you know, are so important to the
    communities and to the American public. They are very different
    than other public lands in that people hunt and fish on them.
    There is a lot of interaction on refuges, whether urban or
    rural.
        So we are at an inflection point with the refuge system and
    have asked for a substantial increase to be able to take care
    of them.
        Senator Cardin. Including the expansion, I hope, into the
    southern part of our State.
        Ms. Williams. Including.
        Senator Cardin. Thank you.
        Let me mention one area of disappointment. We established a
    Chesapeake Wild Program in order to deal with the habitat
    issues around the Chesapeake Bay. The additional funds in
    fiscal year 2023, we got it up to $8 million. But now there is
    a suggestion of zeroing it out in your budget.
        I take it that was just a mistake, you didn't really mean
    that.
        [Laughter.]
        Ms. Williams. Senator Cardin, the Chesapeake Wild Program
    is really incredible. And it is another example of this
    collaborative approach.
        What we did is we requested the funding in our Science
    Applications space so that we can provide these services, but
    yes, it is a really great program. We would love to see it
    funded. But it may not be specifically called out in our budget
    request.
        Senator Cardin. Thanks for that explanation. We will try to
    help you with getting it specifically called out.
        Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        Senator Carper. Your conversation about the Baltimore
    orioles reminds me, a couple of times I have had the pleasure
    of going to an Orioles game. I am a huge Detroit Tigers fan,
    and Ben is nice enough to invite me to join him sometimes. And
    a couple of years ago, I was not able to go, but there was a
    playoff game involving the Baltimore Orioles and the Detroit
    Tigers. It was the final game of the playoff.
        Ben was kind enough to call me right at the end of the
    game, the Orioles had won, and the cheering was so loud you
    could almost hear it from Delaware. He held the phone out so I
    could listen to everybody cheering the Baltimore Orioles for
    the demise of my Detroit Tigers. That is the kind of fan he is.
        [Laughter.]
        Senator Cardin. And I appreciate your not holding it
    against the Baltimore oriole neotropical migratory bird.
        [Laughter.]
        Senator Carper. Never. We will find a way to get even,
    though. But it won't be that way.
        All right.
        Senator Sullivan, welcome.
        Senator Sullivan and I have had the opportunity to sit
    through a couple of Army-Navy games before. He's a Marine
    colonel, and I spent some time in the Navy. We had different
    uniforms, but the same team. There you go.
        Senator Sullivan. Definitely the same team, Mr. Chairman.
    Thank you.
        Director Williams, thank you for being here. We were
    talking earlier in the hearing about consultations. One big
    frustration of mine that I have raised with your boss,
    Assistant Secretary Estevez and the Assistant Secretary for
    Indian Affairs yesterday, the Dep Sec Interior, the Secretary
    of Interior, we are not getting the consultations that we
    deserve in Alaska. We just don't.
        As part of your confirmation process, you committed to me
    that you were going to do things focused on Alaska, you would
    reach out to the people, you would reach out to me, Senator
    Murkowski, our Congressman Peltola. You guys aren't doing that.
        Your agency manages over 70 million acres of land in
    Alaska. That is bigger than Arizona. No disrespect to the
    Chairman, that is 40 times bigger than Delaware. I was in a
    meeting with the President of the United States recently, I
    handed him a big map of Alaska, 45 executive orders and
    executive acts since the Biden administration has taken to
    singularly focus on Alaska, 45. Most of them I read about in
    the newspaper. It is just outrageous.
        So I need to get from you again, and I have had this phone
    call with everybody, if you are going to do something in
    Alaska, you need to consult with me and Senator Murkowski and
    our Congresswoman before you do it. I know you get a lot from
    the radical enviros who tell you to go do these things. You
    have got to consult with us.
        Can I get your commitment on that again? I have asked this
    for everybody. They all say, oh, sure, Senator. Then I read
    about it in the newspaper again. I am starting to get really,
    really, really mad.
        And I raised this with the President. I even said, Mr.
    President, this is wrong. You know it, I know it. It is wrong.
        So can I get the commitment again in this hearing? If you
    are going to do something to my State, reach out to me and the
    stakeholders first. The Center for Biological Diversity is not
    listed in the Constitution, but the Senate is. And it is a
    frustration of mine, an enormous frustration of mine.
        Ms. Williams. Chairman Carper, Senator Sullivan, of course
    I absolutely want to work with you on all of what we do in
    Alaska. I am very proud of the regional director that I chose
    for Alaska, and I think there are a number of projects,
    impacts, approaches, that indicate deep engagement and
    understanding of the need to consult in your State.
        Senator Sullivan. OK, well, good.
        Let me ask, your mission is to conserve, protect, and
    enhance fish, wildlife, plants, and their habitats. That is the
    mission, correct?
        Ms. Williams. Yes.
        Senator Sullivan. Is Fish and Wildlife Service a sub-
    agency, then, within the Department of Interior when it comes
    to conservation of fish and wildlife?
        Ms. Williams. Yes, the Fish and Wildlife Service, we talk
    about it as a bureau within the Department of the Interior.
        Senator Sullivan. OK. And you and I have talked a lot about
    ANILCA, you have read ANILCA?
        Ms. Williams. Yes, Senator.
        Senator Sullivan. Have you read the Sturgeon 1 and Sturgeon
    2 U.S. Supreme Court cases, nine to zero, by the way?
        Ms. Williams. Yes, Senator, but I can't claim to have been
    the State's attorney general.
        Senator Sullivan. OK. Good point. That law gives Alaska
    plenary authority over the methods and take and means of
    harvest of our fish and game resources, including hunting on
    Federal lands. You are aware of that?
        Ms. Williams. Senator, I should re-read the Sturgeon cases.
        Senator Sullivan. It does. It is not a trick question.
        So again, I am just trying to, when there is so much
    overreach on areas that we think just from the Federal law
    perspective provides our State with the management rights of
    fish and wildlife, fish and game, even on Federal lands, again,
    it is very frustrating. The amount of frustration back home is
    really significant.
        Let me just mention two final ones, because I am running
    out of time here. The Fish and Wildlife Service has declined to
    list the Alexander Archipelago wolf in southeast Alaska as
    endangered. I wrote you on March 31st on this issue. You have
    noticed Congress has been very actively overturning through
    CRAs the Endangered Species Act listings.
        We need to take a hard look at that one. The critical
    habitat there would be very damaging to the people in the
    southeast. Very few populations, Native, non-Native, think that
    that population is declining. We actually think it is
    objectively healthy, so does our State. If you can take a look
    at that.
        Then of course there is the King Cove Road. Once again, the
    Secretary said, oh, we need to consult more with the people. At
    the same time, they say, we are going to do environmental
    justice.
        The people of King Cove, the vast majority of them are
    Native, have been consulted for 30 years. They want the road.
    She doesn't need to do any more consultation. Of the 900 people
    there, I think every one wants the road. They have been
    consulted. And the Secretary, as she always does, comes up with
    some big excuse that harms the Native people and says, we need
    to do more consultation.
        Do you have any comments on why you pulled out of that
    litigation? I appreciate your coming to King Cove. But again,
    the frustration of my State is felt on that, particularly from
    the Native population. King Cove is boiling over in a huge way.
        Ms. Williams. Senator, I do have comments on that in that I
    think this is, yes, it is controversial. I was able to go there
    with the Secretary and Senator Murkowski. I know that we had
    high level officials there this spring.
        My answer is that as the first Native American Secretary,
    she does hear this. She is pushing me to think in new ways, and
    the point of moving forward is to do so in a durable and
    lasting way that is more defensible for litigation. So I am
    very proud of this Administration and this Secretary in how she
    is pushing us to think of our relationship in the State of
    Alaska in a lasting way.
        I look forward to working with you on this issue, and I
    know there is more information to come and soon. And I know it
    is a very, very important topic that has bantered around for
    far too long.
        Senator Sullivan. And the wolf in southeast.
        Ms. Williams. The wolf, Senator, the Alexander Archipelago
    wolf, we would like to work with you. We have worked closely
    with the State of Alaska and even had a member of the Alaska
    Department of Fish and Game on the species data assessment team
    review. So we are pulling the State into that process, along
    with others, very carefully. I understand your interest in the
    impact.
        Senator Sullivan. Thank you.
        Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        Senator Carper. You are welcome.
        Senator Capito, thanks for your patience.
        Senator Capito. Thank you. I just have two kind of quick
    questions, I think.
        In March, OMB and CEQ and the Permitting Council issued
    guidance on implementation of President Biden's permitting
    action plan. The guidance suggested, directed agencies to
    submit agency action plans to improve the permitting process.
        Have you submitted your action plan?
        Ms. Williams. I believe, Senator Capito, the action plan is
    for the department as a whole. I don't believe that the Fish
    and Wildlife Service submitted a bureau plan.
        Senator Capito. Did you have input into the overall
    department action plan?
        Ms. Williams. Yes. I am working with the department on all
    of these issues.
        Senator Capito. What were some of the strategies and
    actions that you recommended?
        Ms. Williams. Senator Capito, I would like to follow up
    with you on that.
        Senator Capito. OK.
        Let me ask a question on FTEs. How many people are now
    working for Fish and Wildlife? What is your full time
    equivalent right now, today?
        Ms. Williams. It is over 9,000, Senator. I don't have the
    exact number.
        Senator Capito. I don't know, you are only covered for
    8,500, so you already have 500 more than you----
        Ms. Williams. OK, seasonal, so 8,500, I believe you have
    the more accurate number before you today.
        Senator Capito. And you are asking for an additional 817 in
    the resource management portion, which is, I assume, the
    Section 7 and all that. OK.
        The reason I am asking the question is, it came out in our
    meeting when you came to West Virginia, and I don't know that
    it is just our State. There were FTEs that were left unfilled
    in the office. There could have been more people working there.
    And there was budgetary authority to do that. But the
    recruitment was low. And I think the Elkins field office, to
    their credit, is now filling those positions.
        So my question is, before we would fill another 800 new
    positions, do you have your present positions, there is a
    recruitment issue with Federal Government, there is trouble
    getting our Federal employees back into the office, there is
    all kinds of agency jumping, one biologist might be in yours
    and then decide to go over to DOE or something like that.
        I guess what I am asking you is, at you at capacity now,
    full capacity, according to your budgetary constraints?
        Ms. Williams. Senator Capito, I think there are a number of
    ways for me to answer that. We are not always at full capacity
    with people moving around, and yes, we have had a specific
    focus on the West Virginia field office and building out
    capacity there, which thankfully, we have made great strides
    there.
        Yes, we also, like other Federal agencies, are always
    focused on recruiting top talent. And I would argue that the
    Fish and Wildlife Service, our employees have been hard at work
    throughout the pandemic. Some, our law enforcement and refuge
    staff on a day to day basis showing up at the refuges, and
    others remotely, which is an important tool.
        So we at times though also have vacancies without the
    funding to fill them. So part of our request is to be able to
    fill these positions, for example, in the refuge system, we
    haven't had the budget to be able to do so. So it is a
    combination.
        But having the authority to always be filling in and then
    the request in our budget I believe will allow us to do a
    better job and meet the demands the American public expects of
    us.
        Senator Capito. So in your wildlife refuge fund, I am not
    exactly sure if this is out of yours or if this is something
    that we extrapolated from your budget, you are asking for more
    people in the National Wildlife? Is that true? Wildlife Refuge
    Fund?
        Ms. Williams. Yes, Senator. We are asking for additional
    capacity within the National Wildlife Refuge system, which is
    down 25 percent in the last 20 years.
        Senator Capito. Well, as you know, our Canaan Valley, which
    we are going to go to together at some point in our futures, is
    a very beautiful spot, and obviously visited quite frequently.
    It has some of the best species, both animal species but also
    plant species, in the world.
        Thank you very much. Thanks again for your responsiveness.
    I appreciate the time you spent with us today. Thank you.
        Ms. Williams. Thank you, Senator.
        Senator Carper. Senator Capito, thanks for spending time
    with us.
        I have several more questions I want to ask for the record.
    I would like to give you the opportunity, maybe if there is a
    question or two that you have not been asked that you had hoped
    to be asked, or would like to pose a question. Then you can
    answer it, do the asking and the answering. Something you
    expected to be asked but you haven't, and you would like to
    raise it anyway. Go ahead. We don't do this for every witness,
    only the ones from Montana.
        [Laughter.]
        Ms. Williams. And whose name is Martha. Because we are
    wonderful.
        I appreciate that opportunity, sincerely appreciate that. I
    would like to take the opportunity, now that you have given it
    to me, to express or to ask why is our budget request
    important. And my answer would be that at this time, with the
    biodiversity crisis, with climate, with a once in a generation
    investment in infrastructure, that we have a chance to make a
    difference for the better, for the American people, for
    communities, and for the ecosystem functions that support all
    of us.
        So this is a very important time for these investments, and
    for us to meet this moment in time we need this increase in
    people and funding to be able to deliver.
        It has been a privilege.
        Senator Carper. Thank you for both the question and the
    answer.
        I just chatted with my staff for a moment there while you
    were responding. There is a meeting later today at the White
    House. We know the President has invited bipartisan Democrat
    and Republican leadership from the House and the Senate to try
    and make sure that we avert Armageddon in terms of our fiscal
    situation and avoid going into default. I hope we are
    successful.
        There has been increasing talk about how the issue called
    permitting reform could somehow end up playing a role to help
    get us to make sure we don't do something like a self-inflicted
    wound and default on our debt.
        I don't know if there is any correlation, the might be a
    correlation between Congress providing the kind of funding that
    the President has requested for Fish and Wildlife staff, an
    increase in staffing as we have discussed here today, that
    there may be a relationship between our willingness to do that
    and in the end, our ability to take the steps we talked about
    doing with respect to permitting reform, so that we can better
    ensure that the clean energy that is around the country gets
    there, and we do it in a way that communities are listened to
    in that process, and we do it in a way that businesses and
    industry have certainty and predictability.
        Is there a correlation, is there a relationship here?
        Ms. Williams. Chairman Carper, I am so glad you asked that.
    There is a direct correlation between the Fish and Wildlife
    Service capacity and our ability to provide the consultations
    that do not need to be a bottleneck for infrastructure projects
    and others. Where we have the capacity, we deliver. And those
    consultations can proceed smoothly and efficiently.
        But where we do not have the capacity, it becomes that much
    more difficult. I believe that we have seen over 30,000
    projects, or we have seen a large increase in projects and
    requests for consultations coming through that we have
    responded to with the capacity. We could be that much more
    efficient, we could be more proactive.
        Senator Carper. Thank you for that. Thank you for that
    comment. It confirms what I have been thinking.
        I want to again thank members of our staffs, both minority
    and majority, for their work in preparing us for this hearing.
    I want to extend my thanks to our colleagues, Democrat and
    Republican, who have joined us today. I think almost every
    committee in the Senate is meeting today, either in business
    meetings or hearings. I am grateful that we had such a good
    turnout on both sides of the aisle.
        I also want to thank you for joining us today. I want to
    thank you for your testimony today and for your willingness to
    respond to our questions. We are grateful to you for your
    continued service to this country. I am sure they are proud of
    you back in Montana, where you spent so many years of your
    life.
        As I would say in the military, we had a couple of people
    on here, including Senator Sullivan and myself, who spent quite
    a few years in the military. We also say of folks who serve in
    uniform that we value their service and appreciate their
    service. But their spouse also serves, and we want to say
    thanks to your family for allowing you to serve first Montana
    and now our country.
        Before we adjourn, I want to ask unanimous consent to
    submit for the record a variety of materials that relate to
    today's budget hearing. This is one of my favorite parts of the
    hearing, when I ask unanimous consent to do something and there
    is nobody here to object. So I am not going to object to my own
    request.
        Without objection, it is approved.
        [The referenced information was not received at time of
    print.]
        Senator Carper. Senators are going to be asked to submit
    questions for the record, and they can, and we hope they will.
    They can do that through the close of business on Tuesday, May
    30th.
        We are going to compile those questions as they submit
    them, and we are going to submit them to you and your staff. We
    are going to ask you to try to reply to us by Tuesday, June
    13th.
        Not seeing anyone else asking to be recognized at this
    time, with that, this hearing is adjourned. Thank you so much.
        [Whereupon, at 11:57 a.m., the hearing was adjourned.]

                                     [all]