[Senate Hearing 118-173]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]



                                                        S. Hrg. 118-173

               HEARING ON SOLUTIONS FOR SINGLE-USE WASTE:
               EXPANDING REFILL AND REUSE INFRASTRUCTURE

=======================================================================


                                HEARING

                               before the

                    SUBCOMMITTEE ON CHEMICAL SAFETY,
                WASTE MANAGEMENT, ENVIRONMENTAL JUSTICE,
                        AND REGULATORY OVERSIGHT

                                 of the

                              COMMITTEE ON
                      ENVIRONMENT AND PUBLIC WORKS

                          UNITED STATES SENATE

                    ONE HUNDRED EIGHTEENTH CONGRESS

                             FIRST SESSION
                               __________

                             JULY 27, 2023
                               __________

  Printed for the use of the Committee on Environment and Public Works




               [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]




        Available via the World Wide Web: http://www.govinfo.gov 
          
                                ------
                                
                  U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE

54-167                    WASHINGTON : 2025         
        
        
        
        
        
        
        
        
        
        
        
        
        
        
        
        
        
        
        
        
        
        
        














        
        
        
               COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENT AND PUBLIC WORKS

                    ONE HUNDRED EIGHTEENTH CONGRESS

                             FIRST SESSION

                  THOMAS R. CARPER, Delaware, Chairman
          SHELLEY MOORE CAPITO, West Virginia, Ranking Member

BENJAMIN L. CARDIN, Maryland         KEVIN CRAMER, North Dakota
BERNARD SANDERS, Vermont             CYNTHIA M. LUMMIS, Wyoming
SHELDON WHITEHOUSE, Rhode Island     MARKWAYNE MULLIN, Oklahoma
JEFF MERKLEY, Oregon                 PETE RICKETTS, Nebraska
EDWARD J. MARKEY, Massachusetts      JOHN BOOZMAN, Arkansas
DEBBIE STABENOW, Michigan            ROGER WICKER, Mississippi
MARK KELLY, Arizona                  DAN SULLIVAN, Alaska
ALEX PADILLA, California             LINDSEY O. GRAHAM, South Carolina
JOHN FETTERMAN, Pennsylvania

               Courtney Taylor, Democratic Staff Director
               Adam Tomlinson, Republican Staff Director
               
                              ----------                              

   Subcommittee on Chemical Safety, Waste Management, Environmental 
                   Justice, and Regulatory Oversight

                     JEFF MERKLEY, Oregon, Chairman
               MARKWAYNE MULLIN, Oklahoma, Ranking Member

BERNARD SANDERS, Vermont             JOHN BOOZMAN, Arkansas
SHELDON WHITEHOUSE, Rhode Island     ROGER WICKER, Mississippi
EDWARD J. MARKEY, Massachusetts      DAN SULLIVAN, Alaska
JOHN FETTERMAN, Pennsylvania         SHELLEY MOORE CAPITO, West 
THOMAS R. CARPER, Delaware (ex         Virginia (ex officio)
  officio) 
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  




  
  
  
  
  
  
                            C O N T E N T S

                              ----------                              
                                                                   Page

                             JULY 27, 2023
                             
                           OPENING STATEMENTS

Merkley, Hon. Jeff, U.S. Senator from the State of Oregon........     1
Mullin, Hon. Markwayne, U.S. Senator from the State of Oklahoma..     2

                               WITNESSES

Meng, Dacie, Policy and Institutions Senior Manager, North 
  America, Ellen Macarthur Foundation............................     3
    Prepared statement...........................................     6
    Responses to additional questions from Senators:
    Carper.......................................................    11
        Whitehouse...............................................    16
        Sullivan.................................................    16
Schmid, Clemence, General Manager, Loop Global...................    20
    Prepared statement...........................................    22
    Responses to additional questions from Senators:
        Carper...................................................    28
        Whitehouse...............................................    31
        Sullivan.................................................    33
Debus, Tim, President and CEO, Reusable Packaging Association....    35
    Prepared statement...........................................    37
    Responses to additional questions from Senators:
        Whitehouse...............................................    42
        Sullivan.................................................    44

                          ADDITIONAL MATERIAL

Letter to Senator Merkley and Senator Markwayne from:
    Closed LOOP Partner..........................................    59
    Mercari......................................................    61
Mercari 2023 Reuse Report........................................    62

 
                   HEARING ON SOLUTIONS FOR SINGLE-USE 
                    WASTE: EXPANDING REFILL AND  REUSE 
                    INFRASTRUCTURE

                              ----------                              

                        THURSDAY, JULY 27, 2023

                               U.S. Senate,
         Committee on Environment and Public Works,
         Subcommittee on Chemical Safety, Waste Management,
           Environmental Justice, and Regulatory Oversight,
                                                    Washington, DC.
    The Subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 9:45 a.m. in 
room 406, Dirksen Senate Office Building, the Hon. Jeff Merkley 
(Chairman of the Subcommittee) presiding.
    Present: Senators Merkley, Mullin, Carper, Whitehouse.

            OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. JEFF MERKLEY, 
             U.S. SENATOR FROM THE STATE OF OREGON

    Senator Merkley. Good morning. Welcome to the third hearing 
of the Chemical Safety, Waste Management, Environmental 
Justice, and Regulatory Oversight Subcommittee on environmental 
and public health dangers and solutions in regard to plastics.
    The folk singer, Pete Seeger, once said if it cannot be 
reduced, reused, repaired, rebuilt, refurbished, resold, 
recycled or composted, it should be restricted or redesignated 
or removed from production. We are here to explore that 
philosophy in the context of how to have our containers and 
packaging have longer life and serve us better than the single-
use world we are often living in.
    Generations have grown up believing the mantra of the three 
Rs, reduce, reuse recycle, and then everything is resolved. We 
know with plastics only about 8 percent is recycled. I think 
this past year it dropped to 6 percent. Instead, it gets the 
three Bs: it is buried, it is burned or borne out sea. It 
really has a remarkable, almost near eternal, life span.
    Plastics break down into smaller and smaller pieces until 
they are microplastics. They are in our lungs, our bloodstream, 
in the breast milk we feed our babies, and are full of all 
kinds of chemicals we do not necessarily want in our bodies, 
our bloodstream or our breast milk. That is to say nothing of 
the massive amount of fossil fuels needed to produce single-use 
plastics.
    I was thinking back to when I was in grade school and 
Alpenrose Dairy had a box on our front porch. They dropped off 
the milk in a glass jar. Then the glass jug went back into the 
box and according to whatever you ordered, other products 
showed up. Those glass jars got used eternally.
    After my senior year of high school, I was working as a 
mechanic. The lunchroom had a vending machine. I would get an 
orange soda in a glass bottle. Every time one was different, I 
would put it up on the wall and by the end of the summer, it 
had 8 to 12 different evolutions because the bottles were 
simply washed and reused, and reused and reused.
    Well, the old sometimes becomes the new. Ideas we had in 
the past are looked at again as we face different issues. With 
reusable containers, consumers can either refill containers or 
return them to be sanitized, refilled or restocked on store 
shelves.
    The Ellen MacArthur Foundation, which is represented here 
today by one of our witnesses, estimates that replacing 20 
percent of single-use plastic packaging with reusables would be 
an opportunity worth at least $10 billion of economic activity. 
The World Economic Forum estimates that reusing just 10 percent 
of plastic products would cut the annual amount of ocean 
plastic pollution by 50 percent.
    This is not theoretical. We are already making recycling 
work in Oregon. Oregon was the first State to require that all 
bottles are returnable with a deposit and 90 percent of our 
bottles are recycled. This program employs about 500 people 
across the State.
    Even some of our Oregon brewers are now using a common beer 
bottle that can be cleaned and refilled up to 40 times, meaning 
the bottles do not need to be crushed, melted or remade after 
every use. That actually does go right back to the experience 
we had early in the bottle bill in my State.
    It is not just bottles we are talking about, not just 
drinks we are talking about. At 25 Fred Meyer stores in the 
Portland metropolitan area and some Giant Grocery Stores here 
in D.C., customers can buy products from name brands like 
Cascade, Clorox, Gillette in reusable containers from Loop, an 
innovative company that is also represented on today's panel.
    We are fortunate to have a few witnesses who will help us 
to learn more about how you build a culture and economy of 
reusables. We are joined by Dacie Meng from the Ellen MacArthur 
Foundation which focuses on the issue of plastics and 
rebuilding a circular economy. We are also joined by Clemence 
Schmid, who is the General Manager for Loop, a social 
enterprise whose mission is ``eliminating the idea of waste.'' 
With them is Tim Debus, the President and CEO of Reusable 
Packaging Association whose member companies promote reusable 
transport packaging systems like pallets, bins and containers.
    Thank you all for being here this morning.
    With that, let me turn things over to the Ranking Member of 
the committee, Senator Mullin.

          OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. MARKWAYNE MULLIN, 
            U.S. SENATOR FROM THE STATE OF OKLAHOMA

    Senator Mullin. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    I would like to start with thanking all the witnesses for 
attending the hearing today. We appreciate your taking the time 
to be with us today. It is not always an easy trip to get here 
to Washington, DC. It is definitely not an easy trip getting 
back home. We do want to thank you for taking the time to 
enlighten us and share your thoughts and your experiences.
    As I said in my first subcommittee hearing, I believe free 
market innovation is the best way to promote sustainability in 
all forms of waste management, whether it be in reusable 
packaging or recycling. However, as we discuss potential 
solutions, we must ensure America's supply chains remain 
productive and competitive in the global market.
    As we have seen in America and in other countries, a one-
size-fits-all mandate is not necessarily the right solution, 
especially for smaller businesses who are less likely to be 
able to absorb those extra costs. Businesses should not be 
forced to spend time and capital on unnecessary and erroneous 
regulations that do not serve their customers or their business 
model.
    Regulatory overreach has the potential to hamper free 
market solutions, including for reusable and refillable 
packaging. These solutions should not require a heavy hand of 
government to be successful in the marketplace.
    Our Nation's economy thrives when private industry has the 
right to choose how to tackle these hard-to-address issues in a 
way that provides realistic, affordable, and attractive 
solutions for both consumers and businesses. Otherwise, these 
ideas simply will not survive.
    Again, I want to thank our witnesses for being here today 
and look forward to your testimonies.
    I yield back.
    Senator Merkley. Thank you very much.
    We will now turn to our panel. We are grateful for your 
joining us today and bringing your experiences and knowledge.
    We will begin with Dacie Meng from the Ellen MacArthur 
Foundation.

    STATEMENT OF DACIE MENG, POLICY AND INSTITUTIONS SENIOR 
       MANAGER, NORTH AMERICA, ELLEN MACARTHUR FOUNDATION

    Ms. Meng. Thank you so much.
    Good morning, Chairman Merkley, Ranking Member Mullin. 
Thank you so much for the opportunity to testify today on this 
important topic.
    As you said, I am Dacie Meng, the Policy and Institutions 
Senior Manager at the Ellen MacArthur Foundation in North 
America. EMF is a non-profit organization with the aim of 
accelerating the transition to a circular economy in order to 
tackle some of the biggest challenges we face today like 
climate change, biodiversity loss, waste, and pollution.
    This work is more important to me than ever, as I have just 
returned from maternity leave last week after having my second 
son. I am very grateful to be here with you all today and be 
talking about this.
    One of EMF's key areas of focus is plastics. We have 
published and continue working on research on the topic. We 
have mobilized businesses and other leaders toward a more 
circular economy for plastics.
    In collaboration with the U.N. Environment Programme, our 
Global Commitment has united more than 500 organizations, 
representing 20 percent of all plastic packaging produced 
globally, behind a common vision of a circular economy for 
plastics that includes reuse. We have convened the Business 
Coalition for a Global Plastics Treaty together with WWF.
    That brings together over 130 businesses and financial 
institutions committed to supporting the development of an 
ambitious, effective, and legally binding U.N. treaty to end 
plastic pollution. The Business Coalition has called for global 
support for reuse policies.
    Today, I will quickly cover why reuse is key to addressing 
plastic pollution; what we mean when we talk about reuse; why 
we need policy intervention; and what policy tools can best 
support reuse systems.
    To start, reuse is key to addressing plastic pollution. No 
single strategy can sufficiently reduce plastic leakage into 
the oceans. Reducing plastic pollution requires a comprehensive 
and integrated set of solutions from material redesign, plastic 
reduction, substitution, and reuse, all the way to improved 
recycling and disposal systems.
    Reuse is an essential component in this mix, and has 
incredible economic potential. As Senator Merkley said, 
replacing 20 percent of single-use plastic packaging with 
reusable materials represents a $10 billion opportunity. 
Furthermore, scaling reuse options and new delivery models is 
key to reducing material consumption, decreasing single-use 
plastic applications, taking effective action against plastic 
pollution, and capturing co-benefits.
    To accelerate collaborative action on scaling reuse, EMF is 
currently working with reuse partners and experts to show how 
scaled reuse return systems can perform economically, 
environmentally, and experientially in comparison to single-
use.
    No, for what is a reuse or a use return system. Reusing 
packaging means that the packaging is refilled or used again 
for the same purpose for which it was conceived. Reusable 
packaging has been designed to be or has proven it can be 
reused a minimum number of times. By contrast, single-use 
packaging is designed to be used just once.
    When talking about reuse, it may be helpful to think of 
business-to-consumer reuse in four different categories: 
packages refilled at home; refilled on the go; returned from 
home; or returned on the go.
    These systems present countless potential benefits, but 
there are challenges to implementing reuse models in practice 
resulting in the need for policy intervention to fully capture 
the reuse opportunity.
    Reuse will be a crucial piece of the solution to reduce 
plastic pollution, but business as usual cannot get us there. 
Current commitments will only get us a 7 percent decrease in 
plastic flow into the ocean by 2040. We need policy 
intervention to address the barriers to building and scaling 
the shared infrastructure and systems required to make the 
economics work and maximize the environmental benefits of 
reuse.
    The Business Coalition for a Global Plastics Treaty has 
called for policy support to encourage further investment into 
reuse and refill systems recommending realistic targets, 
combined with effective economic incentives, definitions, and 
metrics to shift the supply chain.
    Businesses want a level playing field and they need policy 
to get there. We need ambitious, binding reuse targets to reach 
the scale and shared infrastructure needed. We need measures to 
make the economics work like extended producer responsibility; 
deposit return schemes, tax breaks, grant funding, et cetera. 
We need harmonized definitions and design to help ensure we are 
building efficient, beneficial and scalable systems.
    These policies will keep packaging in the economy at its 
highest value for as long as possible and avoid the production 
of virgin plastics. It is best if these policies are packaged 
together at the Federal level and are consistent with the 
action underway at the global level.
    While local and small-scale solutions have demonstrated the 
opportunity and will continue to play a key role in the 
implementation of reuse systems, we need cohesive Federal 
action to accelerate progress.
    Thank you for your time and I look forward to your 
questions.
    [The prepared statement of Ms. Meng follows:]
    
    [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT] 
    
    
    Senator Merkley. Thank you. Welcome back from maternity 
leave and congratulations. You said it was your second son?
    Ms. Meng. Yes.
    Senator Merkley. That is just awesome. The best part of 
life is raising those kids.
    We are going to turn next to Clemence Schmid, who serves as 
General Manager at Loop Global. We look forward to your 
testimony.

                 STATEMENT OF CLEMENCE SCHMID, 
                  GENERAL MANAGER, LOOP GLOBAL

    Ms. Schmid. Thank you, Chairman Merkley and subcommittee 
members, for the opportunity to speak at this hearing.
    I am Clemence Schmid, General Manager of Loop, a global 
reuse platform launched by TerraCycle. As background, 
TerraCycle, headquartered in Trenton, New Jersey, is on a 
mission to eliminate the idea of waste. We employ over 500 
people providing national recycling, recycled content and reuse 
services in 20 countries for 20 years.
    We run national platforms to collect and recycle, how to 
recycle products and packages ranging from flexible food 
packaging to personal protective equipment, toothbrushes to 
pill blister packs, and even cigarette butts and dirty diapers. 
TerraCycle manages the largest contact lens and eye care 
recycling program in the United States, and is the world's 
leading recycler of coffee capsules and beauty waste to just 
name a few.
    TerraCycle launched Loop in 2019. Loop enables brands and 
retailers to shift from single-use packaging systems to 
reusable ones in the most convenient way possible. As a result, 
we have partnered with the leading retailers in the United 
States, France and Japan from Walmart to Carrefour as well as 
200 leading consumer goods companies from Proctor and Gamble to 
Nestle.
    In focusing on the three most important stakeholders to 
transition from disposable to reusable consumption, consumers, 
brands and retailers, the primary goal of Loop has been to 
enable the transition to reuse in the least disruptive way 
possible.
    For consumers, the shopping experience is the same. Simply 
buy your everyday product at your preferred retailer. There is 
no requirement to clean or refill oneself. The only new concept 
is a fully refundable deposit attached to each container at 
purchase. The deposit is then reimbursed in full upon the 
return of the empty package at any participating location 
regardless of where it was purchased. As you can see here, the 
goal is to make a reusable purchase feel like a disposable one.
    For brands, Loop is able to integrate any disposable 
product from baby food to motor oil to peanut butter, shampoo 
or laundry detergent with the goal of driving the least amount 
of change to existing supply chains as possible. In fact the 
only change to enable reuse with Loop was to shift from 
disposable containers to reusable ones.
    For retailers, everything stays the same as with disposable 
product distribution. The only change is to enable the Loop 
return bin at the front of their store.
    Loop acts as a central platform steward and is 
operationally the waste management function of reuse. We 
collect back the empty use container, sort, store and clean 
them and return deposits. Our objective is make reuse as 
convenient and affordable as single-use.
    Reuse has to be a part of our future. Reuse is better for 
the environment. This has been shown multiple times in 
different studies like third party-reviewed life cycle 
assessments from both the private and public sector.
    Reuse creates more jobs. It creates significantly more 
domestic jobs than disposal or even recycling. Reuse avoids the 
negative impact of disposable plastic production, a form of 
pollution that permanently affects disadvantaged and minority 
communities in the United States.
    Reuse is financially viable. It has run at scale in the 
United States until the 1950's and to date runs at scale in 
Canada with beer all the way to Germany with most beverages as 
well as in the business-to-business sector with secondary and 
tertiary packaging.
    By treating packaging as an asset versus the cost of good 
salt, Loop's platform enables manufacturers to innovate and 
create better packaging. In the process, manufacturers become 
financially motivated to make their packages as long lasting as 
possible.
    Reuse is proven with consumers, brands and retailers. The 
key to unleashing the full environmental and economic 
opportunity is simply to scale, more product available in more 
stores and more return points.
    Scaling reuse requires investment from private actors. To 
invest, the business needs certainty. We believe the government 
can support this in two ways.
    Support through legislation. For example, we are very 
supportive of reuse being a part of Senator Merkley's national 
bottle bill and would recommend not to limit it to bottle only.
    Providing public funding to scale reuse funding should be 
focused on the infrastructure creation and the reuse platform 
operators. Now is the moment to act. Delaying action could 
stall the measurable progress that has been made toward a more 
sustainable future and set us back decades.
    With existing consumer demand and voluntary action 
underway, government support will be the catalyst to turn reuse 
into a full-scale national reality.
    I urge you to actively support reuse through legislation 
and investment. I appreciate the opportunity to provide 
testimony and would be pleased to address any questions.
    Thank you.
    [The prepared statement of Ms. Schmid follows:]
    
    [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
     
    
    Senator Merkley. Thank you very much for bringing your 
expertise on this model to the panel for discussion and 
education. We appreciate it.
    We are going to now turn to Tim Debus. Welcome.

             STATEMENT OF TIM DEBUS, PRESIDENT AND 
              CEO, REUSABLE PACKAGING ASSOCIATION

    Mr. Debus. Thank you, Chairman Merkley, Ranking Member 
Mullin, and members of the subcommittee for the opportunity to 
share insights on reusable packaging and the important role of 
reuse infrastructures for not only environmental benefit, but 
also for economic value creation and social wellbeing.
    My name is Tim Debus and I represent the non-profit, global 
trade organization for the reusable transport packaging 
industry. The Reusable Packaging Association, or RPA, consists 
of businesses that supply, use, and provide services to supply 
chain packaging products like pallets, bulk bins, containers, 
and trays, for their continuous use in a managed system 
featuring the packaging's recovery, maintenance, and return for 
their intended purpose.
    Today, RPA member companies are collectively involved in 
handling or servicing billions of reusable transport movements 
each year for commercial goods worldwide. Still, overall, 
reusable packaging is the minority share in the supply chain.
    I want to emphasize three points on reusable packaging as 
part of the solution for single-use waste. First, reuse is not 
about the material or product, but the system. No packaging can 
be considered reusable unless it can be collected, returned, 
and prepared cost-effectively for another use.
    We need to be systems-thinkers when it comes to solving 
complex environmental problems. This is the crux of reusable 
packaging in which collaboration and coordination within 
operating systems lead to eliminating solid waste and 
pollution.
    Also, reusable packaging is material neutral, typically 
made from plastics, wood, aluminum, or glass. The key is 
product design for durability, not disposability, using safe 
and recyclable materials, and having the system in place to 
ensure repeated use and end-of-life recycling.
    Plastic-based reusable packaging can be very effective in a 
managed system where product utility is extended and plastic 
material is valued. In my written testimony, I cite several 
real-world examples of how RPA member companies are keeping 
plastics in circulation and out of the environment.
    My second point is that reuse systems are really about 
getting and generating new economic growth and value. If we 
only consider reusable packing in response to environmental 
problems or sustainability quotas, then we are missing the big 
picture opportunity.
    Reusable products can be designed with feature-rich 
properties that optimize performance in user experience and 
embed technologies for smart data capturing outputs. These 
properties can save money in transportation and warehousing, 
reduce food damage and waste, offer ergonomic designs for 
worker safety, perform with automated or robotic handling 
systems and most excitingly, bring tech-enabled visibility to 
supply chains.
    Reuse also builds resiliency in business operations by 
being available and already available for use, avoiding 
volatile raw material pricing and supply constraints that can 
interfere with the endless manufacturing of single-use 
products. A national strategy that incentivizes reusable 
packaging systems can have far-reaching economic impacts. With 
reuse, we can achieve both economic and environmental 
prosperity.
    My third point is that there are many Federal policy 
opportunities to support reuse infrastructures, but we need to 
prioritize reuse and broaden the material scope. Less than 2 
years ago, the Bipartisan Infrastructure Law heavily invested 
to transform municipal solid waste management and recycling. 
Now, Congress has the opportunity to prioritize game-changing 
investments in reuse systems, striking the right balance on 
complementary pieces to the puzzle, reuse for waste prevention, 
and recycling for waste management.
    A national strategy in advancing reusable and refillable 
packaging systems should prevent waste of all material types, 
not just plastics. We should institute consistency across waste 
streams to avoid fragmented efforts in our source reduction 
initiatives and change behaviors and culture for the 
responsible use of all resources.
    A final comment is that is lesser known but is very 
important to our industry, is the need to strengthen 
enforcement of crime laws and prosecutions pertaining to the 
theft of stolen reusable packaging assets. We make great 
products with valued materials and far too often, they are 
getting stolen, diminishing the reuse potential.
    We appreciate the time to be here today and I look forward 
to any questions that you may have.
    [The prepared statement of Mr. Debus follows:]
    
    [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT] 
    
    
    Senator Merkley. Thank you all. We are going to dive into 
5-minute periods.
    Ms. Meng, I think your team is involved in the 
international discussion because plastics in oceans, for 
example, is not just an American challenge but a global 
challenge. I think the Foundation convened the Business 
Coalition for Global Plastics Treaty.
    What is really the core goal of that? Is it to set targets 
or is the goal to have requirements that each nation basically 
says yes, we are going to do X, Y, Z to accomplish those goals?
    Ms. Meng. If I understand your question, it is about the 
global U.N. negotiations around the Global Plastics Treaty and 
whether the Business Coalition will be looking at nationally 
determined contributions or national action plans where 
countries are deciding what they are doing or if there will be 
kind of mandatory components to the International Treaty.
    From EMF's perspective, and I believe also the Business 
Coalition's perspective, we need binding reuse targets on the 
topic of reuse in particular but binding targets in the treaty 
itself. Rather than having countries self-determining what 
those targets will be, of course, they will be implemented by 
the individual countries.
    Senator Merkley. Right now, I believe the U.S. is pushing 
to not have binding targets and set up, if you will, kind of a 
happy talk about what could possibly be achieved. That will not 
get us there.
    Ms. Meng. I agree.
    Senator Merkley. Ms. Schmid, I am picturing, for example, 
the plastic jug that I have with liquid laundry detergent. You 
spoke about fully refundable deposits. In Oregon, we have a 
deposit on bottles, a 10-cent deposit. It has resulted in about 
90 percent return rate.
    Is the concept extending that model to everything else, 
shampoo bottles, laundry detergent bottles, so on and so forth?
    Ms. Schmid. The system is about bringing the value into the 
package. We know deposit is a very good way to do it without 
burdening the citizen. Yes, it is about bringing a deposit on 
everything.
    Senator Merkley. We have a system in Oregon where you throw 
everything into a bag. Then the bag is tossed into a tray at a 
warehouse where a computer takes a picture of it and 
immediately evaluates how much of those things are recyclable. 
It is an amazing system to watch in action and works really 
well.
    If that type of program was extended to other plastic 
bottles of all kinds, do you see that as workable? Has any 
State undertaken to really expand? It is really set up for lots 
of things that look like a soda bottle. Other plastic 
containers are maybe much larger and may be different in shape. 
Can the same basic system be expanded?
    Ms. Schmid. That is about building the infrastructure that 
is tailored for reuse as opposed to recycling as we have. In 
reuse, every container is sorted individually. This is what 
Loop has been demonstrating not only in the U.S. but also in 
Europe and in Japan. The technology would be close to what you 
described, but would be a step up in order to be able to 
isolate packaging, shape, material and content.
    Senator Merkley. I have these bottles. Currently some of 
them are reused through that system I described; some are 
reused like glass bottles. All the plastic ones are essentially 
ground up for recycling which means different types of plastic 
have to be sorted and what, how much can be rebuilt from them.
    You are really, if I understand, you are saying the best 
solution would be for the laundry detergent bottle to be able 
to be refilled and reused, rather than ground up to recreate a 
new product?
    Ms. Schmid. Yes, absolutely. It is much better to reuse 
product that is existing than having to transform it even 
through recycling.
    Senator Merkley. Say that bottle arrives at a central 
warehouse with other recycled plastics, how do we get that 
bottle back to the manufacturer to be refilled and restocked on 
the shelf? Is that really a practical strategy?
    Ms. Schmid. It is happening today in the United States and 
in other countries. That is what Loop is doing.
    The way we operate is, to the point you are describing, we 
are bringing all of the bottles to a central location where 
they are being sorted, stored, cleaned and being sent back to 
each of the manufacturers.
    Senator Merkley. The manufacturer does not have to worry 
about any of the complexities of the cleaning. When you have a 
big container of that particular bottle, you can ship it back 
to the manufacturer and they throw it back into their 
production loop?
    Ms. Schmid. Absolutely correct.
    Senator Merkley. My 5 minutes are up. I will turn to 
Senator Mullin.
    Senator Mullin. Thank you, Chairman. Once again, thank you 
to the witnesses for being here. I will start with Mr. Debus.
    In your testimony, and by the way, your voice carries quite 
well. I was listening to you and I thought maybe you should 
have a voiceover job too. I was impressed by that. It reminded 
me of my colleague from Oklahoma, James Lankford. He has one of 
those voices, too. Not much of a face, but a good voice. I am 
kidding. He is a very good friend of mine.
    In your testimony, you stated reusable packaging companies 
in the supply chain continue to demonstrate success in 
responsible management of plastics. How can reusable packing 
support upcycling and recycled plastic content?
    Mr. Debus. There is a tremendous amount of great activity 
taking place in the market. RPA member manufacturing companies 
as well are taking back 100 percent of their products from the 
user community in order to recycle and reprocess into new 
product manufacturing. It is part of that whole circle system, 
the closed loop, if you will, of bringing back their products. 
They are of value so they can use them and regrind and recycle 
material into other products.
    They also really look to put high recycled content rates 
into their manufactured products. One of our member companies 
has an average of over 80 percent of recycled content in their 
pallets and their bullpens of plastic-based products. They are 
achieving full circularity in terms of utilizing plastic 
products, but then getting those products back and continuing 
to use that material when it is time for its recycling in its 
intended reuse.
    For upcycling, it is basically taking the waste material of 
recycled resin and putting it back into useful products. If you 
look at the EPA waste hierarchy pyramid, it is going from the 
lower part of the pyramid to going up from recycling to source 
reduction of reuse.
    Or in the circular economy technical cycle, it is going 
from the outer loop of recycling to the inner loop of preferred 
activity. It is really an upcycling process of taking the 
plastic material and putting it into useful and valuable 
products that can go from recycling to reuse or waste 
management to waste prevention and allow for tremendous value 
associated with the continued life of that product.
    Senator Mullin. How prevalent is reusable packaging in a 
supply chain right now in different or various markets?
    Mr. Debus. Reusable packaging for the supply chain, they 
are the workhorses of commerce. There is an estimate of all the 
industrial and consumer products that move in this Country, 
over 90 percent on a pallet, for example. They are behind the 
scenes but are ubiquitous in the economies and markets all 
around us. It does range pretty considerably between vertical 
markets.
    The automotive industry, for example, is a big user of 
reusable packaging. They have tighter loops between parts to 
assembly and they definitely have that continuous program in 
terms of distributing products for their use.
    The retail industry is where we have a lot of work that is 
needed. Retail could definitely use some additional penetration 
or adoption associated with reusable packaging. There is great 
variability associated with the market adoption of reusable 
packaging for the supply chain.
    Senator Mullin. When we start talking about reusable, which 
is a great concept, the Chairman brought up the fact that milk 
deliveries used to be done that way, I understand that. Every 
time you touch a product, there are labor costs. Cost is 
associated with anything that we do. It has to be economically 
reasonable for us to be able to do that. When we start talking 
about reusable, you realize that the most cost in every product 
out there is labor.
    How do we combine those two because each time you touch 
that product, every time you touch this bottle, touch a 
reusable product, there are costs associated with that. How do 
you merge those? We have labor costs going through the roof in 
the United States, which is good. I am not saying that is a bad 
thing but it also comes with a cost.
    How do you make that efficient for the consumers? 
Ultimately that is who is buying the product. Do any of you 
want to take that on? That is a hard one, right?
    Ms. Schmid. I am happy to kick off. It is a great question.
    There is cost of labor in production of single-use 
packaging today also, so they are not limited to only reuse. I 
think you are touching on a very good point, where you have 
proof in business modeling exercise. We talked about businesses 
which are scale and are profitable on the reusable side versus 
single-use. That is because you are also making savings on 
reusing your assets as many times as you can.
    Mr. Debus. I was going to say this is where scale or value 
becomes critical because with value, you are able to drive down 
the efficiencies at certain touch points, filling up trucks 
with full loads when they are being transported say from point 
of collection to point of maintenance or back to the packing 
lines, for example. When we talk about scaling reuse, it really 
is about having the volume efficiencies to be able to optimize 
the touch points, drive costs down each step of the way.
    The unique thing about reusable packaging is that it really 
brings the supply chain or consumers together with brands, 
because you all care now about the packaging. The packaging has 
value to it today, whereas today, before with single-use, you 
basically passed that packaging down and absolved yourself of 
no longer having accountability or responsibility for it.
    With reusable packaging, the touchpoint is everyone is 
benefiting from the reusable packaging properties that are 
designed to be able to work within each of those steps along 
the supply chain.
    It really requires coordination and working in partnership 
among those who touch the product to be able to optimize those 
savings as well. That is where that system thinking comes into 
play, is to be able to really generate the biggest economic and 
environmental outcome associated with reuse.
    Senator Mullin. Thank you. I went over my time. I apologize 
for that.
    Senator Merkley. Thank you.
    Senator Whitehouse.
    Senator Whitehouse. Thank you, Chairman Merkley. Thank you 
to our Ranking Member for continuing to focus on the issue of 
plastics because it is an unnatural substance and does not 
biodegrade. It just breaks down into smaller and smaller 
pieces.
    We are seeing it increasingly in things like women's breast 
milk, in things like the contents of a baby's diaper, in things 
like raindrops falling from the sky in Colorado. Focusing on 
preventing this and also understanding what the potential harms 
are of all that microplastic and all that plastic waste I think 
is a very valuable use of the committee's and subcommittee's 
time.
    My plaudits to Senator Merkley for whom this is a great 
cause and passion.
    Ms. Schmid, Senator Sullivan and I have done a couple of 
plastics bills, Save Our Seas and Save Our Seas 2.0, and we are 
in the process of working on Save Our Seas 3.0 right now. One 
of the areas on which I expect we will likely focus is the area 
of recycling and how spectacularly unsuccessful ordinary 
recycling presently is with less than 10 percent of what you 
put in your blue bin actually ending up recycling, with less 
than 2 percent of recycled content in new plastics.
    Trying to figure out how to make recycling work I think is 
going to be a very important piece of this. I would love to 
have your advice on what you think the best things are that the 
Federal Government could do to promote more effective recycling 
and to eliminate sham recycling.
    If you have a quick response, I would welcome it now but I 
would also encourage you to take that back as a question for 
the record and give a more fulsome response if you would care 
to.
    Ms. Schmid. Thank you, Senator Whitehouse, for the 
question. It is a topic that would require a bit more sustained 
response so I will take it back.
    Senator Whitehouse. That would be fine.
    In your sector of the economy, Mr. Debus, are there 
incentives or other things the government could do to encourage 
more reuse? In particular, can we get rid of peanuts, those 
damned little foam things?
    Mr. Debus. Right, make reusable peanuts? That is a nice 
idea. We should talk after the hearing.
    No question about it, the one thing we have to look at is 
that reuse can be very complex in terms of the requirements of 
that whole system to work. Many times it is an investment. 
Companies are putting capital forward to produce a pool of 
reusable assets or are changing their processes internally and 
it requires additional manpower or streamlining operations in 
order to make it work. It is an investment in process change.
    Senator Whitehouse. Do me a favor and make some 
recommendations for us, if you would, on how we can support 
those process changes because I think it is a win-win situation 
if you can get over the initial hurdle of the investment 
required to make the process changes.
    Mr. Debus. Yes. Thank you.
    Senator Whitehouse. Ms. Meng, welcome. Thank you for being 
here.
    The other bill I am working on is called the REDUCE Act. 
That would put a fee on virgin plastic that is designated for 
single-use plastic products. At the moment, one of the things 
that is holding back recycling in that area is it is cheaper to 
make it new than it is to get out of recycling.
    It is very hard to convince economically motivated entities 
like corporations to do things that are against their economic 
interests. It is a policy choice we have to make to put 
recycled plastic and new manufactured plastic on the same 
footing. That is the definition of what economists would call a 
negative externality, that by virtue of using the new plastic, 
you are adding more plastic to the system making life more 
dangerous, adding more waste to the oceans, adding more waste 
to the system and putting more of a burden on people.
    If there is no charge for that, you are letting people get 
away with something that economists would say they should not 
be allowed to get away with. If you are a pure market 
economist, you would want to address this problem. What is 
MacArthur's advice in this area?
    Ms. Meng. Thank you for that question and excellent 
thoughts on the topic.
    I think you are entirely correct that we need to be 
internalizing these externalities and bringing ourselves to a 
level playing field. A fee on virgin plastics does not mean it 
refers to single-use plastics. I think there is a logical way 
to do that. There are countless tools that we can use, but the 
reality is that we need to be doing something to level the 
playing field.
    Senator Whitehouse. Take a look at the REDUCE Act and get 
back to us with any comments or thoughts you might have, if you 
do not mind.
    Ms. Meng. Absolutely.
    Senator Whitehouse. Terrific. Thank you.
    Mr. Chairman, thank you very much for this. Again, I think 
a lot of American corporations have developed a partial market 
economy business model as to free market when it comes to their 
pricing and selling their product but passing on to the public 
and socializing the externalities that they may cause, that 
just is not market theory. The selective use of market theory 
has caused a lot of harm whether in carbon emissions, plastic 
waste or across the board. Thank you for continuing your focus 
in this area.
    Senator Merkley. Thank you very much. We are looking 
forward to Save Our Seas.
    Senator Whitehouse. Save Our Seas 3.0.
    Senator Merkley. Save Our Seas 3.0, with bipartisan 
collaboration. I know those of us who live on the coast, you 
are doing that with Senator Sullivan, right? I know we hear a 
lot about Alaska's concerns about the Pacific gyre and the 
amount of plastic waste that washes up.
    Senator Whitehouse. We pick it up on our shores with 
garbage bags. They have to pick that up on their shores with 
front-end loaders and dumpsters because of the Pacific flow of 
plastic waste.
    Senator Merkley. Absolutely. Thank you.
    I think it is an interesting point about the economics 
involved. My impression, going back to when Oregon first 
implemented recycling of bottles, and all the bottles were 
glass, is that those who delivered the product were happy to 
have the bottles washed and reused because it was cheaper than 
buying new bottles because it takes a lot of energy to create a 
glass bottle melting.
    It was the folks who made the bottles who, at that point, 
were extremely resistant because obviously they would sell less 
bottles if the existing bottles were reused.
    With plastics, the economics often are different in that it 
can be cheaper, as my colleague pointed out, to make a new one 
than to recycle an existing piece. It is the externalities of 
the impact of that plastic downstream that are not taken into 
account.
    I wanted to ask you, Ms. Meng, as the Foundation has worked 
with partners to implement larger scale reuse and refill, are 
there like a top three, here are the biggest obstacles you have 
encountered?
    Ms. Meng. That is an excellent question. I will look to the 
rest of the panel also for their experience.
    I do think that the challenge we see from folks, is we have 
had businesses asking for a level playing field, because the 
need for shared infrastructure at scale, kind of standardized 
infrastructure, is crucial.
    In an individual company, it is a real challenge to build 
out that infrastructure to establish sufficient collection 
points or access points for consumers. They are looking for 
policy intervention to really help bring folks together to 
collaborate to get the shared infrastructure at scale but they 
need to make it work economically. I think that is the big 
challenge we are hearing.
    Senator Merkley. At scale it just gets a lot cheaper.
    Ms. Meng. Absolutely.
    Senator Merkley. Ms. Schmid, as we think about plastic 
bottles being reused, is there a consumer challenge? Consumers 
get very used, they want their oranges to look orange and their 
apples with no bruises. They are kind of used to that kind of 
perfect product on the shelf.
    Do we find with reused plastic bottles that consumers go, 
why does this bottle have scratches on it? Are consumers 
accepting and are the manufacturers happy with the consumer 
response of reused plastic bottles?
    Ms. Schmid. Thank you for the question.
    Reusable packagings are going to rotate several times. That 
is something, from our own experience, we are seeing consumers 
really willing to accept. It is also in the hands of the 
manufacturer to design the right durable package that is 
meeting their consumer needs.
    Then we have a whole industry that has very strong 
experience in designing product and packaging that delights 
consumers on a daily basis. I am fully confident, based on the 
work we have seen already on the platform to date, we are able 
to deliver against those needs.
    Senator Merkley. Let me ask you the same question I asked 
Ms. Meng. As you work on this project, what are the top three 
challenges you are encountering?
    Ms. Schmid. I would say there is only one challenge. The 
challenge is scale. We talked about it previously in talking 
about labor costs. Costs will be viable once there are 
sufficient units to flow through the system.
    What is required is really a system that is competitive 
versus single-use, also in the number of units that flow 
through the system.
    Senator Merkley. Thank you.
    Mr. Debus, I was picturing these plastic pallets. I am more 
familiar with wooden pallets. I am also familiar with how those 
wooden pallets break apart, degrade and so forth. Are the 
plastic pallets a more durable product? Is that part of why 
they have found acceptance?
    Mr. Debus. They can be, for sure. Many of them are designed 
to last for many years and hundreds of uses. There could be 
some durability properties that plastic pallets offer that wood 
does not.
    We are seeing some great advancements, though, in wood 
pallet suppliers performing reuse capabilities such as offering 
inventory management programs and working directly with 
customers on a managed pool of wood products and wood pallets. 
They can take back, repair and put them in place.
    We are seeing some reuse models even get into the wood 
pallet industry as well. Several of our members are wood pallet 
supplier and pooler companies.
    Senator Merkley. I have so many additional questions but I 
am out of time. I have another hearing that has just started. 
Our chair of Environment and Public Works has arrived. I am 
going to turn the hearing over to you. If you like, continue to 
go as long as you want.
    The hearing is yours. If you do not mind, I will leave.
    Chairman Carper.
    [Presiding.] Do the Lord's work. When I finish my 
questions, should I gavel out?
    Senator Merkley. Yes.
    Chairman Carper. Ms. Meng, how are you?
    Ms. Meng. Doing well, thank you.
    Chairman Carper. It is nice to see you.
    Sometimes we hear from critics of the circular economy 
movement that our reliance on plastic and other single-use 
items has become so ubiquitous that the only policy solution is 
to improve our ability to recycle these products.
    While this is certainly one element of achieving 
circularity, it overlooks two of the most important tools in 
our toolbox. One of those is reduction and the other is reuse.
    I believe that achieving circularity in our economy hinges 
upon our taking an all-of-the-above approach when addressing 
consumption and waste management practices. I am inspired by 
the role that reuse and refill infrastructure could play, can 
play in that transition.
    My question for you, ma'am, would be why is it important to 
consider policy options beyond just recycling as we work to 
create circularity within our economy? The second half of my 
question is, can you share an example with us of a reuse policy 
that has been effective in reducing overall waste? Do you want 
me to repeat those questions?
    Ms. Meng. No, I have notes, excellent questions, and I am 
glad to answer them.
    On the question of why we need to be looking beyond 
recycling, we see that kind of recycling is inadequate, both in 
practice and in theory. There is not enough that we can do with 
recycling due to products that are not easy to recycle like 
flexible packaging, and actual systems in place that are not 
meeting our needs with recycling. We have to look beyond 
recycling for solutions.
    Frankly, some of the solutions outside of recycling are 
more appropriate for different types of products, are more 
suited to the products. Looking upstream is what EMF thinks is 
critical to meeting the challenges we face.
    When we think about looking upstream, we see the great 
opportunity that is there. We see if you replace 20 percent of 
plastic packaging with reusable packaging, it is a $10 billion 
opportunity. If you replace 10 percent of the plastic packaging 
on the market, you can keep 50 percent of plastics out of the 
ocean annually.
    There is a huge opportunity both economically and 
environmentally. We need to be aware of all our options when 
thinking about tackling those challenges.
    On your question about whether there are reuse policies 
that we can point to----
    Senator Carper. A good example or two, if you will, on 
reduction or reuse policy.
    Ms. Meng. Reuse policy that is effective, we have a number 
of policies that are in the early stages that are really great 
on reuse that we are really excited about like reuse targets 
that we are seeing currently negotiated in the EU up and 
running in France in the near term.
    When we think about what we have seen proven time and time 
again, I think bottle bills are a classic example that we look 
to across the U.S. States that we have seen really do drive 
return rates. If we are incorporating reuse into those systems, 
we are in a position to be getting packaging back to be reused 
very efficiently and effectively.
    Senator Carper. Thank you.
    Clemence, who are you named after?
    Ms. Schmid. It is a French name.
    Senator Carper. I thought so. Bienvenue, welcome.
    Ms. Schmid, you mentioned in your testimony that the United 
Nations views reuse, and I think this is a quote, ``the most 
scalable solution to reduce plastic waste at its sources.''
    How has Loop been able to partner with other businesses 
such as Walmart in order to promote reusable packaging? Hat is 
one question. A followup would be, how can the Federal 
Government work alongside the private sector companies to scale 
reuse and refill infrastructure and technology?
    Ms. Schmid. Thank you, Senator Carper, for the questions.
    Loop works with brand manufacturers and retailers to 
transition from a disposable system into a reusable system in 
the least disruptive way. It is really about handling for that 
supply chain the reverse logistic in a way that disrupts the 
existing and very efficient supply chain in the least possible 
way, working with, you named them, Walmart but also over 200 
brand manufacturers including Proctor and Gamble and Nestle.
    We are develop reusable packages that are being enjoyed by 
consumers. Upon return, Loop is collecting them back, sorting, 
storing and cleaning them. We also reimburse the deposit.
    Senator Carper. How do you collect them back?
    Ms. Schmid. We collect back them from the store where they 
are being currently returned by consumers or any other location 
that has a Loop return point.
    Senator Carper. Thank you.
    Ms. Schmid. Do you want me to address the question on the 
economics?
    Senator Carper. Please, if you would.
    Ms. Schmid. What is really important in the Loop system is 
that the package is an asset to the brand manufacturer as 
opposed to the cost of goods sold. In making the package an 
asset, you enable the manufacturer to innovate and create a 
fundamentally better package and a better consumer experience.
    This is what, as a brand manufacturer or producer, you are 
really striving to be able to delight consumers. That is what 
they are able to do much better on a reusable package than on a 
single-use package.
    Senator Carper. Any idea where that idea came from? That is 
a very clever idea.
    Ms. Schmid. The idea for a reusable package?
    Senator Carper. Yes. Has that been around for a while?
    Ms. Schmid. I do not think that is a new idea. I think we 
call it the milkman.
    [Laughter.]
    Senator Carper. When I was in grade school, my colleagues 
and I were out on the playground playing. The other kids 
started talking about who they were named after. They asked who 
I was named after and I didn't know.
    That night when I went home, at supper, I said to my dad, 
who am I named after? We do not have any Toms in our family. He 
said speak to the milkman. He said, son, you are named after 
the milkman. That was when we actually had milkmen. We had a 
milkman named Tom. We moved a lot then but we always had the 
same milkman, so who knows. I like milk, I know that.
    Ms. Schmid. I will ask if our milkman was named Tom also.
    [Laughter.]
    Senator Carper. Clemence, I have another question if you do 
not mind, dealing with lessons learned. I often like to say in 
life we need to find out what works and do more of that. For 
recycling, we often look to our State or local initiatives that 
are successfully promoting circularity.
    My home State of Delaware recently passed a law that would 
ban food establishments from using single-use, polystyrene 
containers and other plastic items like coffee stirrers. While 
we are still waiting for our Governor to sign this bill into 
law, I look forward to the lessons that we gain from this 
Delaware law and similar legislation.
    I also believe we can learn from the international 
community, from countries beyond our borders, including France, 
about successful reuse and refill policies.
    My next question of you, Mademoiselle, is having worked to 
launch Loop globally across three continents, is that right, 
what lessons can we learn from the international community as 
well as from States and municipalities, when it comes to 
reusable or refillable products and infrastructure?
    Ms. Schmid. Thank you for this very important question.
    The first learning is there is a market demand for reuse. 
Consumers are ready and are already experiencing it in many 
sectors. There is a need to scale and we see this across all 
the markets.
    The second learning I would bring to the committee, as you 
rightly pointed out, is some countries have already taken the 
forefront of working policies together with the business in 
order to foster and propel reuse.
    In my home country of France, which is clearly leading the 
way, and also in Europe, we have seen reuse targets and reuse 
mandates coming through legislation which have fostered the 
creation of the reverse infrastructure and we are seeing the 
market developing extremely fast.
    I would summarize in making sure this government passes 
legislation to support reuse.
    Senator Carper. Thank you.
    Mr. Debus, what are some of the lessons learned from your 
work at the Reusable Packaging Association that might help us 
achieve a more circular economy? How can we encourage other 
industries to pursue policies like incorporating reusable 
shipping supplies which are both good for business and I think 
are good for the environment?
    Mr. Debus. Very much so. Thank you.
    The biggest lesson in seeing reusable systems in action is 
that they create tremendous opportunity and value within the 
supply chain infrastructures and the participating parties. 
There is a lot of discovery that takes place.
    When you are incorporating a reusable packaging system, you 
have to know every step of the way where that package is being 
handled. That opens the eyes for a lot of businesses to see 
other improvement areas that can take place, whether it is in 
their shipping or the warehouse, whether it is in the stores 
and stocking merchandise for a point-of-sale.
    There are a lot of opportunities that come up with reusable 
packaging that people discover and it becomes an ``aha'' moment 
of wait, if we can do this, then this leads to other benefits.
    That is the biggest takeaway that I have seen, especially 
being in the field, that reuse breeds a level of performance 
that companies do not turn away from once they establish that 
system. They do not go back to a single-use model because they 
are generating benefits throughout the whole system. They are 
saving money and providing a better experience for those 
handling the items. There is not a lot of turning back.
    I think as far as cultivating reuse systems, as I mentioned 
earlier, it is an investment so how can policy help with 
investments for the return, the payback that takes place maybe 
a year or two down the line?
    A lot of our companies are looking at the immediate 
reporting, second quarter and how do we achieve efficiencies 
today. Sometimes that investment in reuse can take a year or 
two for the payback or return. Anything now, whether tax 
breaks, or grants, or things that can help generate the 
financial investment in reuse models would be very valuable.
    Senator Carper. One last question for Dacie Meng. I believe 
the reuse and refill infrastructure presents a promising 
alternative to single-use plastics. My guess is you do too.
    In the Environmental Protection Agency's draft strategy to 
address plastic pollution, the agency describes how the Federal 
Government should use its power of acquisition and procurement 
to promote sustainable supply chains for materials that are 
used in Federal buildings.
    Ms. Meng, do you believe that our Federal Government could 
successfully implement reuse and refill infrastructure in some 
of our Federal buildings? What are some of the best examples of 
single-use products that could be replaced by reuse and refill 
infrastructure?
    Ms. Meng. That is a wonderful question. Thank you. The 
EPA's Plastics Strategy is a really exciting development. I 
think this is a key piece of the work we need to be doing on 
reuse.
    I will point you first to GSA which has an advisory 
committee that published a kind of road map exactly on this 
topic for different pilots than can be conducted both by 
procurement officers and facility-specific pilots.
    When we think about what are some of the actions the 
Federal Government can take and what products can be 
transitioned to reuse, the obvious ideas are drinking fountains 
as a replacement, building the infrastructure for reusable 
water or water bottles.
    Then we can look to the food service areas such as 
cafeterias and other things that may be replaced with reusable 
food ware, if that is not already in place.
    I will continue to think on that and get back to you with a 
few additional ideas.
    Senator Carper. Good. You may have a chance to do that. We 
are going to be submitting questions to each of you from our 
colleagues who are not here and some who are here. We call them 
questions for the record, or QFRs.
    We will ask that Senators to submit the questions for the 
record through close of business on Thursday, August 10th. We 
will compile those questions and send them to you and ask you 
to reply to us by Thursday, August 24th.
    In closing, let me thank you all. Merci beaucoup. I thank 
each of you for appearing today and your testimony, but really 
for what you do with your lives. I hope your work provides you 
with great satisfaction. Mine certainly does for me.
    As a point of clarification, Senators will be allowed to 
submit questions for the record through the close of business 
on Thursday, August 10th. Again, we will ask you all to respond 
by Thursday, August 24th.
    I do not know how they say this in French but we have a 
saying here that when something is over, we say, that is a 
wrap. We are grateful to all of you.
    One of my favorite people, favorite leaders, if you will, 
from other countries is the leader of France. President and 
Mrs. Biden hosted a State Dinner for French President Macron 
about a year or two ago. I had the opportunity to chat with him 
a bit there.
    He had spoken to a joint session of the Congress about 2 
years ago. I got to shake hands with him and chat with him 
briefly before he spoke. In his address that day to the joint 
session of Congress, he said these words, ``This is the only 
planet we are going to have. There is no planet B. This is the 
only one.''
    I told him at the State dinner that I have quoted him many 
times in saying that. I have never given him credit for the 
quote. He said, ``We have a special name in France for people 
like you who steal our material without attribution.'' We had a 
good laugh.
    Keep up the good work. You are doing great things for our 
planet, the only one we are going to have. Take care.
    With that, we are adjourned.
    [Whereupon, at 10:51 a.m., the subcommittee was adjourned.]
    [Additional material submitted for the record follows:]
    
    [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT] 
    

                                 [all]