[Senate Hearing 118-165]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]


                                                    S. Hrg. 118-165

                           THE PGA-LIV DEAL:
                  IMPLICATIONS FOR THE FUTURE OF GOLF
                  AND SAUDI ARABIA'S INFLUENCE IN THE
                             UNITED STATES

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                                HEARING
                                 
                               BEFORE THE

                PERMANENT SUBCOMMITTEE ON INVESTIGATIONS

                                 OF THE

                              COMMITTEE ON
               HOMELAND SECURITY AND GOVERNMENTAL AFFAIRS
                          UNITED STATES SENATE

                    ONE HUNDRED EIGHTEENTH CONGRESS


                             FIRST SESSION

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                             JULY 11, 2023

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        Available via the World Wide Web: http://www.govinfo.gov

                       Printed for the use of the
        Committee on Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs
        
        
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                    U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE                    
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        COMMITTEE ON HOMELAND SECURITY AND GOVERNMENTAL AFFAIRS

                   GARY C. PETERS, Michigan, Chairman
THOMAS R. CARPER, Delaware           RAND PAUL, Kentucky
MAGGIE HASSAN, New Hampshire         RON JOHNSON, Wisconsin
KYRSTEN SINEMA, Arizona              JAMES LANKFORD, Oklahoma
JACKY ROSEN, Nevada                  MITT ROMNEY, Utah
ALEX PADILLA, California             RICK SCOTT, Florida
JON OSSOFF, Georgia                  JOSH HAWLEY, Missouri
RICHARD BLUMENTHAL, Connecticut      ROGER MARSHALL, Kansas

                   David M. Weinberg, Staff Director
                    Zachary I. Schram, Chief Counsel
           William E. Henderson III, Minority Staff Director
              Christina N. Salazar, Minority Chief Counsel
                     Laura W. Kilbride, Chief Clerk
                   Ashley A. Gonzalez, Hearing Clerk


                PERMANENT SUBCOMMITTEE ON INVESTIGATIONS

                      RICHARD BLUMENTHAL, Chairman
THOMAS R. CARPER, Delaware           RON JOHNSON, Wisconsin
MAGGIE HASSAN, New Hampshire         RICK SCOTT, Florida
ALEX PADILLA, California             JOSH HAWLEY, Missouri
JON OSSOFF, Georgia,                 ROGER MARSHALL, Kansas

                   Jennifer N. Gaspar, Staff Director
                 Brian Downey, Minority Staff Director
                      Kate Kielceski, Chief Clerk
                           
                           
                           C O N T E N T S

                                 ------                                
Opening statements:
                                                                   Page
    Senator Blumenthal...........................................     1
    Senator Johnson..............................................     4
    Senator Padilla..............................................    15
    Senator Paul.................................................    17
    Senator Scott................................................    19
    Senator Marshall.............................................    20
    Senator Hawley...............................................    22
    Senator Carper...............................................    31
Prepared statements:
    Senator Blumenthal...........................................    51
    Senator Johnson..............................................    55

                               WITNESSES
                         Tuesday, July 11, 2023

Ron Price, Chief Operating Officer, PGA Tour.....................     7
Jimmy Dunne, Board Member, PGA Tour..............................     9

                     Alphabetical List of Witnesses

Dunne, Jimmy:
    Testimony....................................................     9
    Prepared statement...........................................    61
Price, Ron:
    Testimony....................................................     7
    Prepared statement...........................................    57

                                APPENDIX

PSI Majority Staff Memorandum....................................    65
Chairman Blumenthal Chart--PGA Tour's Tax Exempt Status..........   341
Quotes referenced by Senator Blumenthal..........................   342
Quote referenced by Senator Blumenthal...........................   343
Senator Johnson's document Operation Encore......................   344
Statement of Terry Strada, National Chair of 9/11 Families United   355
Responses to post-hearing questions for the Record:
    Mr. Price....................................................   357
    Mr. Dunne....................................................   362

 
                           THE PGA-LIV DEAL:
                  IMPLICATIONS FOR THE FUTURE OF GOLF
                  AND SAUDI ARABIA'S INFLUENCE IN THE.
                             UNITED STATES

                              ----------                              


                         TUESDAY, JULY 11, 2023

                                   U.S. Senate,    
              Permanent Subcommittee on Investigations,    
                    of the Committee on Homeland Security  
                                  and Governmental Affairs,
                                                    Washington, DC.
    The Subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 10 a.m., in 
room SH-216, Hart Senate Office Building, Hon. Richard 
Blumenthal, Chairman of the Subcommittee, presiding.
    Present: Senators Blumenthal [presiding], Carper, Hassan, 
Padilla, Ossoff, Johnson, Paul, Scott, Hawley, and Marshall.

           OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR BLUMENTHAL\1\

    Senator Blumenthal. Good morning, everyone. This hearing of 
the Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs Committee 
(HSGAC) Permanent Subcommittee on Investigations (PSI) will 
come to order. I want to thank the witnesses for attending 
today. I want to thank my colleague, Senator Johnson, for 
participating in the invitation to you, and the collaborative 
approach to this hearing and our inquiry, and all of our staff 
for their hard work on the memorandum that we have distributed 
with documents, which I will put into the record, without 
objection.\2\
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    \1\ The prepared statement of Senator Blumenthal appears in the 
Appendix on page 51.
    \2\ The staff report appears in the Appendix on page 65.
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    Today's hearing is about much more than the game of golf. 
It is about how a brutal, repressive regime can buy influence--
indeed even take over--a cherished American institution to 
cleanse its public image. It is a regime that has reportedly 
killed journalists, jailed and tortured dissidents, fostered 
the war in Yemen, and supported other terrorist activities, 
including the 9/11 attack on our Nation. Today is about 
sportswashing.
    It is also about hypocrisy, how vast sums of money can 
induce individuals and institutions to betray their own values 
and supporters, or perhaps reveal a lack of values from the 
beginning. It is about other sports and institutions that could 
fall prey, if their leaders let it be all about the money.
    Perhaps to state the obvious, sports are central to our 
culture and society. They have huge implications for our way of 
life, our local economies and communities close to home, and 
our image abroad. Athletes like the Professional Golfers 
Association of America (PGA) Tour golf players are role models. 
They are Ambassadors of our values. The institutions that 
concern us today are vital to our national interest. To have 
them taken over by a repressive foreign regime certainly is a 
matter of our national security.
    We hope that today's hearing will help us uncover not only 
the reasons for the PGA Tour's sudden reversal of its 
opposition to the LIV Golf takeover and what it means to golf, 
but also to understand what similar investments by repressive 
regimes or other countries with deep pockets could mean for our 
country, for our national security, and for the world.
    For 2 years, the most vehement opposition to the Saudi 
government's taking over the sport of golf in America, and the 
most vehement criticisms of Saudi sportswashing, came from the 
PGA Tour's leaders themselves. They enlisted fans, sponsors, 
the 9/11 families, and Members of Congress like myself. Some of 
those leaders sat across from me at Cromwell, Connecticut, and 
asked me to support them, and I did, all on the promise and 
commitment to maintaining the PGA Tour as an independent, 
cherished iconic American institution.
    Jay Monahan himself said in June, just a year before June 
6th, ``I would ask any player that has left or any player that 
would ever consider leaving, have you ever had to apologize for 
being a member of the PGA Tour?''\1\ The players admirably and 
heroically stood by the PGA Tour and said no to tens of 
millions of dollars. Likewise, members of the 9/11 families who 
are with us today stood by the PGA Tour, and others of us did 
the same.
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    \1\ The quote referenced by Senator Blumenthal appears in the 
Appendix on 342.
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    Then suddenly on June 6th, everything changed. The sports 
world was shocked by the announcement that the PGA Tour was 
entering into an agreement to combine forces with the Saudi 
Arabian Public Investment Fund (PIF), the Saudi sovereign 
wealth fund, which owns LIV Golf. It is an instrument of the 
Saudi government, and the deal was not just to take over a 
team, but the entire sport, not just an individual Saudi 
investor, but the government of Saudi Arabia.
    It was no ordinary investment. The Saudi Public Investment 
Fund is closely aligned with the very top of the Saudi monarchy 
and it is headed by Governor al-Rumayyan who was a negotiator 
and party to this deal.
    Understandably, there was a feeling of betrayal among many 
of the individuals and groups that supported the PGA Tour, 
including from the players themselves. We are here today 
because not only did it raise that feeling of betrayal, and Jon 
Rahm, familiar to all of us said it best, ``I think the general 
feeling is that a lot of people feel a bit of betrayal from 
management.''\2\
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \2\The quote referenced by Senator Blumenthal appears in the 
Appendix on page 343.
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    But we are here about questions that go to the core of what 
the future of this sport and other sports will be in the United 
States. What happened that led the PGA Tour to change its 
position? Was it only the hope of ending litigation or was it 
also the unspecified amount of Saudi investment that would come 
of it? How much money did PIF offer the PGA Tour? What other 
sources of money were sought as an alternative?
    Given these questions and their implications, not only for 
the future of professional sports but for foreign influence and 
global human rights, this Subcommittee launched an inquiry into 
this deal. I have already put into the record the memorandum 
that we circulated that incorporates the documents that have 
been produced and some of what we have learned, but clearly, 
although the agreement itself is seemingly unspecific, vacuous, 
and simply an agreement to agree, we know from it that the 
Saudi government will have an equity dominance and ownership of 
this institution through its investment. We know also that the 
PGA Tour surrendered once for the Saudi investment of money, 
and there is no assurance in this agreement that it would not 
do so again.
    We have learned from the documents some facts that also 
indicate that the PGA Tour will be dominated in this agreement. 
We learned that after rebuffing the PIF as recently as this 
January, the PGA Tour representative reached out to PIF 
Governor Yasir al-Rumayyan days after he was told of fears 
that, ``the Saudis will double down on their investment,'' in 
LIV.
    We learned that Saudi Arabia's early vision for the Tour 
included a team golf tournament, culminating in Saudi Arabia, 
at least one high-profile PGA event in Saudi Arabia, and a 
global golf investment fund managed by the PIF.
    We learned that just one night before the framework 
agreement between the PIF and the PGA Tour was signed, the PIF 
added a non-disparagement clause that appears to prevent the 
PGA Tour from criticizing Saudi Arabia, and it applies to the 
witnesses that are before us, today apparently.
    We learned that Governor al-Rumayyan will not only become 
the chairman of the PGA Tour's board, but he will sit on the 
executive committee of the new company that is to be formed 
where he will, and this is a direct quote from a document we 
received, ``provide PIF with strong influence'' over the new 
company.
    We learned what is not in the agreement, which may be as 
important as what is explicitly there--very little is 
explicit--that there are potential side agreements and 
understandings. Only in the internal documents that were 
reviewed by this Subcommittee did we learn that PGA Tour 
officials prepared to sign an agreement providing that LIV 
Chief Executive Officer (CEO), Greg Norman, would be terminated 
upon execution of the final agreement. We do not know whether 
this agreement was executed, but there are other documents, 
such as the talking points that are now in the record for Jay 
Monahan to talk to the Policy Board, that indicate the parties 
maintained this understanding about terminating Norman after 
the agreement was announced.
    We still do not know whether there are other side 
agreements or other understandings that may exist or what they 
might say. We do not know what assets the PGA Tour will place 
in the new entity or how it will maintain its nonprofit status, 
certainly, a profoundly important question; what assets it 
gained while it had nonprofit status that may be transferred 
now to a for-profit entity, raising very serious questions that 
ought to concern this Subcommittee and the Congress; and 
especially since it has indicated that there will be an active 
commercial role for this new entity.
    We also do not know what will happen to players who may 
want to speak out against Saudi Arabia's human rights abuses. 
They apparently are bound by the non-disparagement clause. The 
LIV Golf tournament had requirements about wearing apparel. Are 
they going to have Saudi insignia on their shirts? Are they 
going to be speaking on behalf of the Saudi government?
    We do not know whether LIV will continue to exist after the 
conclusion of its next season, and if so what form or under 
what leadership. Of course, we still do not know how much money 
is on the table or was even discussed to prompt the PGA Tour to 
make this sudden, dramatic reversal. My hope is that this 
hearing will begin to answer those questions and that we will 
learn more as we receive additional documents and have 
additional hearings.
    Americans very simply deserve to know what this agreement 
means for the future of golf as well as for the future of the 
Saudi Arabian government's investment in sports and other 
autocratic regimes that may choose to do the same, because 
Saudi Arabia has nearly limitless capacity to inject its funds 
into these endeavors through its nearly $700 billion in assets. 
We already know they have purchased a British Premier League 
soccer team, two of the largest video game tournament operators 
in the world, and made investments in Formula One racing, among 
many other investments.
    Now, we will not be able to comprehensively address these 
questions because two witnesses whom we invited could not be 
here today. They had scheduling conflicts. We are working with 
them to resolve those scheduling issues, and we hope that they 
will work with us cooperatively.
    The PGA Tour Chief Operating Officer (COO) Ron Price and 
Board Member Jimmy Dunne who are with us today played a central 
role in arranging the agreement, and I want to thank each of 
you for being here. You are both knowledgeable and prominent 
members of the PGA Tour's leadership. We hope that you will 
help us to discover some of the reasons for the PGA Tour's 
sudden reversal and other answers to these questions and what 
the deep pockets of the Saudi government and other regimes 
could mean to the future of our country and the world.
    With that I will turn to the Ranking Member for his opening 
remarks.

            OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR JOHNSON\1\

    Senator Johnson. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I also want to 
welcome the witnesses and thank you for appearing voluntarily 
before our Subcommittee.
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    \1\ The prepared statement of Senator Johnson appears in the 
Appendix on page 55.
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    Let me start by saying I love the game of golf--I wish I 
was a whole lot better--and I enjoy playing and watching it.
    Golf is a pure meritocracy. Golfers succeed or fail on 
their own. Every golfer can empathize with a pro who is trying 
to hold on to a one-shot lead, execute a difficult shot, or 
sink a crucial putt. We appreciate the moments of celebration, 
and we sympathize with the failed attempts.
    The game of golf has developed a handicap system that 
allows golfers like me, at a lower skill level, to enjoy 
competing with one another. But it is competition at the 
highest level that brings us here today.
    Every professional sport faces the exact same challenges: 
How do you structure and maintain competition to attract large 
audiences and maximize the revenue base? How do you fairly 
compensate all the athletes, from the top stars to the 
journeyman players striving for the top? In a global 
environment, how do you accomplish this with entities 
possessing dramatically unequal resources?
    League sports in America provide a good example of this 
dilemma. How can small city markets, like Green Bay or 
Milwaukee, afford to field teams to effectively compete against 
cities like New York, Chicago, or Los Angeles, that have much 
larger fan bases? The solution has been the formation of 
leagues and governing bodies that develop and enforce rules of 
the game and competition. Unfortunately, many of the rules and 
practices that these leagues engage in may run afoul of the 
Sherman and Clayton Anti-Trust laws.
    In researching the legislative and judicial history of 
sports in America, I must agree with the assertion of a 1987 
University of Miami Law Review article that states, ``. . . the 
precise law governing the relationship between professional 
sports leagues and the Sherman Act is so noticeably confused 
and unsettled.'' A simple explanation for this confusion is 
that it is difficult to write a law that effectively addresses 
every situation and reality.
    This hearing deals specifically with the reality the PGA 
Tour faced when Saudi Arabia decided to get involved and invest 
in professional golf. According to its 2021 990 tax form, the 
PGA Tour had net assets worth approximately $1.25 billion. 
Saudi Arabia's Public Investment Fund is estimated to be worth 
between $600 to $700 billion, 500 times larger than the PGA 
Tour.
    Until the creation of LIV Golf, the multiple golf tours 
throughout the world competed in a commercial marketplace 
dictated by the normal market force of profit and loss. LIV is 
financed by an entity that was committed to competing for top 
players with little, if any, regard or expectation of a direct 
financial return. From a commercial standpoint, it is not a 
fair fight, and the PGA Tour accurately viewed LIV as an 
existential threat.
    I have the deepest sympathy for the families of 9/11 and 
support their efforts of obtaining information currently being 
withheld by the United States and Saudi governments.
    Mr. Chairman, as a quick aside I was approached by some 
members of 9/11 families in the hall today, and they gave me a 
document that summarizes the Federal Bureau of Investigation 
(FBI's) investigation of Saudi involvement in 9/11. Like so 
many documents that I receive it is heavily redacted. The FBI, 
the United States government, the Saudi government is not being 
transparent with the 9/11 families, and I want to completely 
support the 9/11 families in obtaining transparency and the 
truth. I would like to enter this document into the record\1\ 
so that people can view for themselves the lack of transparency 
of our government and the Saudi government.
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    \1\The document entered for the Record appears in the Appendix on 
page 344.
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    Senator Blumenthal. Without objection, and I might just say 
I have spoken to the 9/11 families about exactly this 
resistance by our own government, the FBI, and other agencies 
to provide the facts that are necessary for them to seek simple 
justice, and I would join you in a bipartisan effort to make 
those facts more available.
    Senator Johnson. Hopefully that is a really good bipartisan 
result of this hearing.
    Sportswashing is also a legitimate issue, but no amount of 
money can wash away the stain of the brutal Khashoggi 
assassination and other human rights abuses.
    But it would be grossly unfair to expect the PGA Tour to 
bear the full burden of holding Saudi Arabia accountable. After 
all, anyone who drives a car or uses oil-based products has 
helped fill the coffers of the Saudi Public Investment Fund.
    Foreign investment in the United States is generally a good 
thing, and I would rather have the Saudis reinvest their oil 
wealth in America as opposed to China or Russia. Also, if the 
Kingdom's involvement in golf and other sports helps it 
modernize and offer more rights to women, would that not be a 
good thing?
    Although I believe there are much more pressing issues 
Congress and this Subcommittee should be focusing on, like many 
Americans I have a great deal of interest in how this issue is 
resolved. As courts have indicated, Congress does have a 
legitimate role to play in settling the confusion in the law 
governing professional sports.
    That said, I did not sign the requests for information or 
the memo issued by the majority because the parties are in the 
midst of what should be a private negotiation, and there is no 
deal to review. Inquiries and investigations conducted by this 
Subcommittee generally involve some measure of wrongdoing. 
There is nothing wrong with the PGA Tour negotiating its 
survival. Negotiations are often delicate, mostly private, and 
I fear Congress getting involved at this stage could have 
negative consequences.
    I hope that this hearing can be constructive and address 
the many legitimate questions the public has regarding the 
future of golf and how to preserve the purity of competition at 
the highest levels of the game. Although the various parties in 
this dispute bring different perspectives and objectives to it, 
my guess is that they do share a common love and respect for 
the game of golf and want to see it succeed well into the 
future.
    Again, thank you, Mr. Chairman. I thank the witnesses and 
look forward to your testimony.
    Senator Blumenthal. Thanks very much, Ranking Member 
Johnson.
    I am going to introduce the witnesses and then, as is our 
custom, swear you in and ask you to speak. We are going to have 
7-minute round questions once your testimony is done.
    We welcome Ron Price, who is the Chief Operating Officer at 
the PGA Tour. He has been leading the Tour's operations during 
the absence of CEO, Jay Monahan. By the way, both of you I hope 
will convey to Mr. Monahan our hope for his continuing 
recovery. We are glad to learn that he will be back later this 
month in the job, but in the meantime you are representing the 
PGA Tour.
    Mr. Price has been responsible for the overall strategy and 
operations of the PGA Tour including overseeing championship 
management, brand communications, golf course properties, 
finance, legal licensing and merchandising as well as talent 
and culture, board governance, and government relations. My 
understanding is you joined the Tour in 1994.
    Mr. Price. Yes, sir.
    Senator Blumenthal. Jimmy Dunne, who is sometimes referred 
to as a legendary dealmaker, served as a member of the PGA Tour 
Policy Board since January of this year, and he is one of the 
chief architects of the PGA Tour deal that we are discussing 
here today. Your name is repeated in many of the key documents, 
Mr. Dunne, and we are very glad that you are going to enlighten 
us as to some of these questions.
    He is the Vice Chairman and Senior Managing Principal of 
Piper Sandler and was one of the co-founders of Sandler O'Neill 
+ Partners, L.P., an independent investment banking firm. Over 
the past 2\1/2\ decades, he has advised on some of the 
financial industry's largest mergers and acquisitions 
transactions. We welcome you and look forward to your 
testimony.
    Now if you would please rise.
    Do you affirm that the testimony that you are about to give 
is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so 
help you, God?
    Mr. Price. I do.
    Mr. Dunne. I do.
    Senator Blumenthal. Thank you.
    Mr. Price, if you could proceed.

  TESTIMONY OF RON PRICE,\1\ CHIEF OPERATING OFFICER, PGA TOUR

    Mr. Price. Thank you. Chairman Blumenthal, Ranking Member 
Johnson, and Members of the Subcommittee, thank you for the 
opportunity to testify today regarding the PGA Tour. I serve as 
the Chief Operating Officer of the Tour and most recently have 
been co-leading the Tour while Commissioner Monahan is on 
medical leave.
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    \1\ The prepared statement of Mr. Price appears in the Appendix on 
page 57.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Let me start by saying that our goal is to protect an 
American institution that along with its tournaments generates 
over $200 million annually, for over 3,000 charities across 34 
States, and brings the highest level of sports and 
entertainment to millions of fans around the globe, and 
provides the most pro-competitive, legacy-driven platform for 
the world's best players.
    That goal, which is our core mission, has been under threat 
for the better part of 2 years. When the Saudi-funded LIV Golf 
Tour launched its inaugural series in 2022, the Tour faced an 
unprecedented attack. In defending our organization and its 
regulations that each member agrees to at the start of every 
season--we were forced to suspend players, those players who 
made the choice to play for LIV Golf. They could play for the 
new league, but they could not come back and forth to freeride 
off the work and platform of the collective membership they had 
left behind.
    In August 2022, we were sued in an effort to invalidate our 
regulations. This created a fracture in golf unlike anything 
our sport had experienced in decades and created a division in 
our closely knit membership organization.
    We believe that we have done everything we could possibly 
could to defend what we stand for, including spending tens of 
millions of dollars to defend litigation instigated by LIV 
Golf, and that is significant funds that were diverted away 
from our core mission to benefit our players and charity.
    As part of the litigation, we were successful in securing a 
court ruling that the Public Investment Fund was not protected 
under sovereign immunity with respect to litigation discovery 
and potentially liability. That is something which had never 
been done before in the United States. Meanwhile, we have seen 
the continued strength of the Tour thanks to the loyalty, 
talent, and performance of the remarkable players we are proud 
to call members of the PGA Tour.
    However, it was very clear to us, and to all who love the 
PGA Tour and the game of golf as a whole, that the dispute was 
undermining growth of our sport, was threatening the very 
survival of the PGA Tour, and it was unsustainable. While we 
had significant wins in litigation, our players, our fans, our 
partners, our employees, our charities, and the communities we 
support would lose in the long run.
    Instead of losing control of the PGA Tour, we pursued a 
peace that would not only end the divisive litigation battles 
but would also maintain the PGA Tour's structure, mission, and 
longstanding support for charity. While negotiations toward a 
definitive agreement are currently underway, the framework 
agreement contains important safeguards that ensures the Tour 
will operate fundamentally as it does today. The Tour will 
control its operations, the Tour will control the board of the 
new PGA Tour subsidiary, and the Tour will be the governing 
body for competitive golf in connection with any combined golf 
operations. The agreement provides clear, explicit, and 
permanent safeguards that ensure the Tour will lead the 
decisions that shape our future, and that we will have control 
over our operations, strategy, and continuity of our mission.
    I certainly understand the need for additional clarity 
around how and why the deal came together, and I welcome the 
opportunity to shed light on the predicament we found ourselves 
in, one which we did not seek, one that we could not sustain 
indefinitely, but one for which we have found a workable, 
productive solution that benefits all who love the game of golf 
and the PGA Tour.
    Thank you, and I will be happy to answer your questions.
    Senator Blumenthal. Thanks, Mr. Price.
    Mr. Dunne.

      TESTIMONY OF JIMMY DUNNE,\1\ BOARD MEMBER, PGA TOUR

    Mr. Dunne. Mr. Chairman, Ranking Member Johnson, and 
Members of the Subcommittee, my name is Jimmy Dunne and since 
January of this year I have served as an independent director 
on the PGA Tour policy board. To hold that position is a real 
privilege for me.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \1\ The prepared statement of Mr. Dunne appears in the Appendix on 
page 61.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    I joined the board at a time of great concern for all of us 
who love the game of golf. Some players had left the PGA Tour 
to join LIV Golf. Others were under pressure to do the same. 
The PGA Tour and LIV were facing each other in litigation. 
There was division and tension among players. You could feel it 
spreading to fans and sponsors.
    My concern was that if it all continued, expensive legal 
fights, every day wondering which player was going to leave 
next, a fan base tired of hearing about it, sponsors nervous, 
golf, as we know it, would be damaged forever. As board 
members, we have a responsibility to protect the game. As the 
situation appeared to me, the Tour had to move toward a 
solution of the differences that were causing way too much 
disruption, and we had to do it in a way that preserved the 
standards, tradition, and authority of the Tour. For that to 
happen, we needed to act from a position of strength, and we 
found ourselves in that position in the spring of this year.
    By April, major court rulings had set back LIV in its 
litigation against both the Tour and Europe's DP World Tour. It 
was the right moment to reach out, not only because of those 
legal victories but also because of our solid financial 
condition. We knew that a long-term fight with LIV would be 
harmful to the players, fans, sponsors, and charities. We 
wanted to begin the negotiation while we were in a strong 
position. This would allow us to focus on uniting the game or 
walk away if that objective was not being served.
    At the direction of the PGA Tour Commissioner and the board 
chairman, I contacted Yasir al-Rumayyan, LIV's majority owner 
and Governor of the Public Investment Fund of Saudi Arabia. A 
limited number of in-person meetings followed, and these 
meetings resulted in the framework agreement of May 30th.
    As Members of this Subcommittee know, some agreements are 
just mutual promises to continue to negotiate, and this 
describes the framework agreement. The only deal reached in the 
framework is that the lawsuits among the parties have been 
settled. Everything else is aspirational. The elements are all 
there for a final agreement that can serve the interests of the 
players, fans, sponsors, and charities, and unite the game of 
golf.
    Since the June 6th announcement, the Tour and its advisors 
have taken the lead in negotiating the final agreement. But 
what I can tell you is the Tour will continue to manage the 
game, retaining majority governing control, and majority 
economic control. The Tour will appoint a majority of the board 
of directors. The framework would not be possible without the 
clear understanding that the Tour will retain full 
decisionmaking authority.
    Of course, we expect many questions about who we are 
dealing with. The reality is that because some men from Saudi 
Arabia were part of the nightmare of September 11th, suspicion 
has lingered about the complicity of others. For my part, my 
thoughts turn to September 11th, and I remember the 66 friends 
and colleagues at my firm who died that morning, along with so 
many others when the towers went down. I think about them all 
the time. I think about the families, and I think about the 
grief that never ends. If any person had the remotest 
connection to an attack on our country and the murder of my 
friends, I am the last guy that would be sitting at a table 
with them.
    If this agreement ultimately succeeds I have nothing to 
gain except a sense of pride that we helped unite the game we 
love. I am not in line for a job, a fee, or compensation of any 
kind. My entire concern here is to put this divisive period 
behind us, and for the sake of the players, fans, sponsors, and 
charities, unite the game of golf once again.
    Thank you, and I look forward to your questions.
    Senator Blumenthal. Thanks, Mr. Dunne. I will begin the 
questions, and we are going to have 7-minute rounds with 
colleagues as they appear, participating.
    Both of you are here speaking on behalf of the PGA Tour. 
Correct?
    Mr. Price. Correct.
    Senator Blumenthal. Mr. Price, you were winning this 
litigation. Correct?
    Mr. Price. Senator, we won some battles but the litigation 
was far from over.
    Senator Blumenthal. As Mr. Dunne has said, you were on top. 
You were winning. In effect, you made the judgment, maybe it 
was a business judgment, that the cost of proceeding was too 
high, and the ultimate agreement involved not only settling 
this litigation but also a Saudi investment in a new entity to 
be created. Correct?
    Mr. Price. Senator, we really faced a choice. One option 
was to continue the very expensive, disruptive, and divisive 
litigation, and we faced a real threat that LIV Golf, which is 
100 percent financed by the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia, would 
become the leader of professional golf.
    Senator Blumenthal. You decided to take the financing and 
the investment from Saudi Arabia for this new entity that would 
also incorporate the PGA Tour. Correct?
    Mr. Price. Senator, we have not taken any funding. All we 
have done is settle the litigation and enter into a framework 
agreement in which the PGA Tour will be the clear leader of 
professional golf going forward.
    Senator Blumenthal. Right. But there is an understanding 
that PIF will contribute an investment to the PGA Tour and the 
entity that will control it.
    Mr. Price. They will not be contributing to the PGA Tour. 
It will be a PGA Tour-controlled subsidiary, and any funding--
--
    Senator Blumenthal. What is the amount of the Saudi 
investment that is going to be made?
    Mr. Price. That has not been determined yet, Senator.
    Senator Blumenthal. Has there been any discussion of what 
that amount will be?
    Mr. Price. It would be--there have been discussions. It 
would be a significant amount, north of----
    Senator Blumenthal. What are the amounts that have been 
discussed?
    Mr. Price. North of $1 billion.
    Senator Blumenthal. Are there possibilities that additional 
amounts would be contributed?
    Mr. Price. That is in the complete control of the PGA Tour 
because it is a PGA Tour subsidiary, and the board is 
controlled by the PGA Tour, and they have absolute control over 
how much funding they accept now and in the future.
    Senator Blumenthal. Instead of accepting this amount of 
money--call it an investment, call it financing--from the Saudi 
sovereign wealth fund, did you explore other sources of 
potential investment?
    Mr. Price. We considered that, Senator, but had we gone 
down that path we would still be fighting the very expensive 
and disruptive litigation, and----
    Senator Blumenthal. If you had won you would have 
prevailed.
    Mr. Price. That was far from a certainty, and LIV Golf 
would have continued to recruit our players and put our Tour at 
jeopardy, and they could have become the leader of professional 
golf and operated it for the benefit of the Kingdom of Saudi 
Arabia.
    Senator Blumenthal. What other sources of funding did you 
explore?
    Mr. Price. We did not have specific conversations with any 
outside firm, but we talked about it as potential and what 
those terms might be.
    Senator Blumenthal. What conversations among yourselves did 
you have as to the alternative sources of funding?
    Mr. Price. We have talked about it at board meetings, a 
structure similar to what we have set up. We decided to not 
pursue it at any point in time because we would still be in 
litigation and still be fighting the Public Investment Fund, 
which has $700 billion of assets.
    Senator Blumenthal. Mr. Price, in the talking points that 
you prepared for Jay Monahan to brief the Policy Board--Mr. 
Dunne was a member of it--you indicate that, ``PIF will make a 
financial investment to become a premier corporate sponsor of 
the PGA Tour and DP World Tour and other international tours. 
PIF also is committed to significant financial support toward 
the PGA Tour-directed causes that positively impact the game on 
a global basis.'' By the way, one of the talking points says, 
``Greg Norman will be reassigned to an advisory role determined 
by PIF when the PGA Tour becomes the manager of the LIV tour.''
    Mr. Dunne has said that the agreement does not talk about 
money, but there was an understanding about PIF investing in 
the new entity, that is called NewCo. It may have another name 
now. That investment, you have told us, would be more than $1 
billion. Correct?
    Mr. Price. There has been no agreement reached, but there 
have been discussions of that nature. I would add that one of 
the things you mentioned, if we reach an agreement that would 
be important to us is the Public Investment Fund providing 
funding to support social causes that would provide additional 
access to the game.
    Senator Blumenthal. Are you bound by the non-disparagement 
clause that is very specifically stated in the agreement?
    Mr. Price. Not in this forum, Senator.
    Senator Blumenthal. Not in this forum, but generally?
    Mr. Price. Generally, when you are negotiating a business 
agreement, it is common to have a non-disparagement clause so 
that you----
    Senator Blumenthal. It may be common, Mr. Price, but you 
are bound by it. Mr. Dunne, as a member of the Policy Board and 
a party to these negotiations you are bound by it as well. 
Correct?
    Mr. Dunne. Senator, I am sitting before United States 
Senators. You can ask me what you want, and I will answer it 
truthfully.
    Senator Blumenthal. I am not questioning that you will give 
us what you believe is the truest as to facts. But my 
understanding of this clause--and you are right, Mr. Price, it 
is very common to business agreements--is that it would be 
binding on you, on other members of the Policy Board, 
potentially on the athletes. Indeed the LIV requirements for 
their players have a similar bar to any of them saying anything 
negative about any relevant person, including members of the 
PIF governing apparatus.
    I am going to end my questioning now, for this round, but I 
would like to have a commitment from both of you that the final 
agreement will not prevent players or PGA Tour executives from 
commenting on or criticizing actions of the Kingdom of Saudi 
Arabia. Will you make that commitment?
    Mr. Price. It would certainly be an objective we would 
seek, Senator, and I would add that the framework agreement 
does not prevent our players from speaking their mind on any 
matters.
    Senator Blumenthal. It does not now, but you cannot commit 
that the final agreement will not require them to avoid any 
such disparaging statements?
    Mr. Price. We do not anticipate it having that.
    Senator Blumenthal. But will you commit that it will not 
have it, that you will not agree to it if it does?
    Mr. Price. I would not recommend it to the Policy Board for 
approval if it did.
    Senator Blumenthal. Mr. Dunne.
    Mr. Dunne. I am not doing the negotiation, but as Ron just 
said, he would not recommend it. I will inform the entire board 
of your excellent point, and I will guarantee you, the board 
will vote on it. I do not have the power to decide that. But we 
hear you, we understand, and I will advocate for it--if we get 
to an agreement. That disparagement clause, that is basically 
to the term of the agreement. You generally do not want to be 
saying bad things about each other when you are negotiating, 
but it has a short-term life on it until we get to a 
definitive.
    Senator Blumenthal. I will return to this line of 
questioning when I continue.
    The Ranking Member is recognized.
    Senator Johnson. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I would like to 
try and lay out the reality that you were faced with. First of 
all, you would not have been seeking large, additional funding, 
or large amounts of additional funding had it not been for the 
PIF entering the scene. Correct? You are always seeking 
resources, that type of thing, but it is only because of what 
the Kingdom did. Correct?
    Mr. Price. That is correct, Senator Johnson. It is only 
because of LIV that we are sitting here today.
    Senator Johnson. Again, you are dealing with an entity that 
is 500 times larger than you, in terms of financial wealth.
    Mr. Dunne, who is Roger Devlin?
    Mr. Dunne. I have never met a Roger Devlin. He has emailed 
me. He is a member of a golf club over in England. He works, I 
believe, in an investment banking capacity, and he had emailed 
me a couple of times about possible discussions about getting 
together.
    Senator Johnson. I believe he had helped Saudi Arabia 
invest in some soccer team or whatever.
    Mr. Dunne. I believe his partner is one of the co-investors 
with Yasir.
    Senator Johnson. He had a relationship with the Saudis----
    Mr. Dunne. He did.
    Senator Johnson [continuing]. A commercial one.
    Mr. Dunne. He does, to my knowledge.
    Senator Johnson. He reached out to you in January, saying 
the time may be ripe to sit down and try and repair the breach. 
You rebuffed him at that point in time you were not ready for 
it. Is that a fair statement?
    Mr. Dunne. If I may answer, Senator, my attitude was all of 
the people other than the guy with the money, we should not 
talk to. We should just get to the spiritual leader, because 
everything that was happening did not make any sense to me. I 
did not want to waste any time talking to anybody, and my 
advice to the commissioner was do not waste any time talking to 
anybody other than the guy with the money.
    Senator Johnson. Who is that guy with the money, in your 
mind?
    Mr. Dunne. The Governor, Yasir al-Rumayyan.
    Senator Johnson. OK. On April 14, 2023, Mr. Devlin emailed 
you, and the final line in his email states, ``I fear the 
Saudis will double down on their investment and golf will be 
split asunder in perpetuity.'' I read that, and I recognized 
what reality the PGA was facing. Does that typify one of the 
reasons you decided to reach out to the Saudis?
    Mr. Dunne. Thank you, Senator. They did not have to double 
down to create the problem that we already had, so if they kept 
doing what they were doing it would be significant enough. 
Because the PGA Tour, it is not that big in terms of players, 
so if they take five players a year, in 5 years they can gut 
us.
    Senator Johnson. Again, the PGA was facing existential 
threat because of the PIF and because of LIV, so you are 
responding to that existential threat. Now you have agreed to 
reach out to Yasir al-Rumayyan. What did you make of the man? 
Tell us a little bit. What was his motivation? I realize you 
cannot necessarily get inside his head, but can you kind of 
describe for us, why were the Saudis doing this, or why was 
Yasir doing this?
    Mr. Dunne. Thank you, Senator. Obviously, I am not inside 
his head, but my perception--and as I said, I told the 
commissioner that you should send someone only to speak to him. 
In April he chose me to reach out to him. I went out to meet 
him, and unlike everyone else that is involved with LIV, where 
they are very acrimonious toward the PGA Tour, he said he 
respected the Tour, respected how they did things, and I was 
surprised by that. He did not have the attitude that, frankly, 
a lot of the management people had. I thought it might make 
sense to put the man with the money and our commissioner 
together for another meeting.
    Senator Johnson. Describe the challenge you have, as the 
PGA, compensating the top players, compensating everybody, and 
also attracting top players to come to your tournaments, which 
is what you need to attract the audience, the viewership, the 
TV deals, the sponsorship. Just talk about that challenge, in 
general, of managing PGA Tour golf. Either one of you.
    Mr. Price. We represent all the players, and so our process 
we have to go through is allocating resources that the players 
earn through competition. We are performance-based, a pure 
meritocracy, I think as you said, Senator Johnson. We try to 
balance the allocation of resources among our top players and 
the ones who are performing at a top level on a regular basis 
while, at the same time, maintaining earnings opportunities for 
all of our players.
    The players who are performing well, our top players, those 
are the ones that the fans are interested in, and fans tune in 
and watch, and they drive our primary revenue streams, media 
and sponsorship. To the extent that LIV golf has been 
successful in taking away some of our top players through their 
irrational economic business model, that puts pressure on our 
ability to maintain our primary revenue sources. If they 
continued to do that we would, as you said, have faced an 
existential threat.
    Senator Johnson. Mr. Dunne, you have done a lot of deals, 
right, and you have been in a lot of negotiations. I have done 
a lot of negotiations myself. I have never had to do them in 
public. I want to emphasize, for the Subcommittee, for the 
audience, that you do not have a deal. You ended the 
litigation, which took a big liability off your plate, and I 
have been involved in enough litigation that you never know the 
result. It is always a big risk.
    Talk about how difficult it is for the PGA to have all this 
information exposed. Ideas get thrown out in negotiations. They 
are rejected. But even the idea of being made public does not 
help. Describe how difficult it is going to be to conclude this 
deal.
    Mr. Price. It makes it very complicated. I agree you 
generally do not negotiate a deal in public. But we are 
committed to try to move from a framework agreement to a 
definitive agreement because we believe that would allow us to 
continue our leadership in professional golf and our 
tournaments to be operated in accordance with our mission and 
our standards for our players and for charity. We think that is 
very important. But these proceedings make that even more 
difficult.
    Senator Johnson. Mr. Price, as we spoke over the phone a 
couple of weeks ago, and I have read the framework, which 
immediately got leaked. It struck me as this is kind of a win-
win situation for the parties involved. It sounds like the 
Saudis got a seat at the table in terms of golf, but PGA 
retained its control over the game, over the competition. Mr. 
Dunne, can you kind of speak to this? In any negotiation, what 
you want in the end is a win-win for everybody and you can move 
forward successfully as opposed to acrimony and destructive 
behavior, moving forward.
    Mr. Dunne. Senator, that is the goal. I really understand 
Senator Blumenthal's concern about not having them take over. 
That is the last thing in the world we want. I think through 
this agreement we can get a win-win situation.
    My fear is if we do not get to an agreement they are 
already putting billions of dollars into golf. They have a 
management team that wants to destroy the Tour. Even though you 
could say take five or six players a year, they have an 
unlimited horizon and an unlimited amount of money. It is not 
like the product is better. It is just that there is a lot more 
money that will make people move.
    I am concerned with exactly what the Senator is worried 
about. I am more concerned if we do nothing we are going to end 
up there. They are going to end up owning golf. They can. They 
can do it, because it is not that big. Its only a couple 
hundred players.
    Senator Johnson. I share that concern.
    Mr. Dunne. I am deeply concerned.
    Senator Johnson. I sympathize with the position you are 
both in.
    Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    Senator Blumenthal. Thanks, Senator Johnson. Senator 
Padilla.

              OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR PADILLA

    Senator Padilla. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and I will try to 
be quick, both out of respect for other Members but also I have 
a presenting officership that begins in a few minutes.
    But I cannot help but observe that there is a lot of 
conversation about what this means from the PGA leadership's 
perspective, what this could potentially mean from a PIF 
perspective in Saudi Arabia itself.
    I do not hear a lot of conversation about the players, 
because it is the players' performance that drives the game. It 
is the players' performance that drives the fan base. It is the 
players' performance that drives the revenues. I want to take a 
moment to focus on the players and the need to do right by them 
so this agreement can actually be concluded.
    As we all know, prior to the framework that was announced, 
PGA Tour officials were highly critical of LIV, and those who 
chose to join LIV. In fact, I understand that that the PGA Tour 
suspended at least 24 players who participated in LIV events 
and became ineligible to participate in PGA Tour tournaments.
    Of course, PGA officials then turned around and did exactly 
the same thing they criticized some players for, leaving those 
players who chose to remain loyal to the PGA, and forgo the 
significant financial benefits of joining LIV, understandably 
wondering what was the point of remaining loyal to the PGA.
    Mr. Dunne, can you tell me how will players who remained 
loyal to the PGA be made whole? Will they be eligible for some 
form of damages? It is not just the foregone income that was a 
real pain, but their reputations even have taken a hit. Can you 
explain to me how players are going to be made good should this 
agreement go through?
    Mr. Dunne. I will answer but Ron is really doing the 
negotiation. Thank you for your question, Senator. Nothing will 
happen without the players' full support. We have five player 
representatives on the Tour Policy Board. I cannot imagine the 
circumstance where I will not be voting with the majority of 
them.
    I have to emphasize, we negotiated the settlement of the 
lawsuit in complete secrecy because of the fear that a lot of 
people make a lot of money in these lawsuits, especially the 
other side's lawyers. To the degree that got out, we would 
never have gotten that to fruition. It is a two-stage 
negotiation, a little bit of what Senator Johnson was talking 
about. The first part is lawsuit settles, the Tour has to be in 
charge, and we agree to talk. Now we are talking with complete 
transparency. The players are going to have to get something 
that they appreciate for staying on the Tour.
    Senator Padilla. I hear you. Time is limited, as we turn it 
over. Sorry. Mr. Price let me also add in the dimension of, for 
the new players that are now eligible to complete in the PGA 
because there was a handful that left to LIV, what happens to 
them after this merger, if it goes through?
    Mr. Price. Senator, we have two task forces in place now, 
and we are working with our player directors because we are a 
membership organization. That is who we represent. The first 
task force is evaluating ways in which we can recognize the 
players who remain loyal to the PGA Tour. That is very 
important to us. We will not move forward with a definitive 
agreement unless we get that right and our players support 
that.
    For players who left the Tour to play for LIV, they were 
suspended. If they come back, they are not going to be playing 
for LIV. They will be playing for a PGA Tour-controlled sports 
league or golf league. They will have to go through our 
existing rules and regulations process to gain re-entry.
    Senator Padilla. That is one of the areas that we will be 
watching. The second, Mr. Chair, instead of asking an 
additional question, I will state a concern for the record and 
will follow up in future conversations here.
    But during the 2023 season, LIV Golf pulled a bait-and-
switch, from what I understand, on its television broadcast 
technicians who are represented by the International Alliance 
of Theatrical Stage Employees, when they switched to a non-
union production company, and making the technicians behind LIV 
Golf's productions some of the few in major sports who did not 
receive any health and retirement benefits while providing 
coverage.
    My first question was about the players, specifically. 
Please know I am interested in the treatment and fairness of 
all employees that make golf revenues, including but not 
limited to significant broadcast revenues possible, not just as 
players but in the broadcast and production, et cetera. Yet 
another area that we will be following up on.
    Thank you, Mr. Chair.
    Senator Blumenthal. Thanks, Senator Padilla. Senator Paul.

               OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR PAUL

    Senator Paul. I have been a vocal critic of the Saudis for 
years and led the effort to block billions in arms sales to 
Saudi Arabia. The Saudis have demonstrated a relentless pattern 
of malign behavior ranging from the brutal killing and 
dismemberment of Jamal Khashoggi within their consulate, for 
which they evaded punishment, and their consistent disregard 
for human rights is well known.
    Additionally, they have committed war crimes in Yemen, a 
war for which American taxpayers are being used as unwitting 
accomplices, resulting in thousands of civilian casualties from 
their ruthless actions. Nevertheless, I see no constitutional 
power that suggests Congress should involve itself in golf.
    I have no doubt that some will argue that the tax code or 
somewhere in the ever-expansive commerce clause is the power to 
regulate private agreements. I disagree. As an originalist, an 
originalist interpretation of the Constitution would lead to a 
different conclusion. If we took the Ninth Amendment seriously, 
if we took the principles of liberty, of contract seriously, we 
would acknowledge that the Constitution affords protection for 
such agreements. We have no business asking the PGA about their 
negotiations or what they might do or what they might not do. 
It is not the business of government.
    If members of the Senate wanted to express their outrage 
over Saudi Arabia in a meaningful way, I gave them an 
opportunity to do so. In December 2021, I proposed canceling a 
$650 million sale of 280 advanced air-to-air missiles and 596 
missile launchers to Saudi Arabia, but there was no 
congressional hearing. We are here today talking about golf, 
but we did not have one congressional hearing over sending 
hundreds of millions of dollars of advanced weapons to Saudi 
Arabia. There was no expression of outrage. Instead, 67 
Senators voted against my proposal and voted to continue 
selling arms to Saudi Arabia.
    It is time that Congress rediscovers the presumption of 
liberty, that our first recourse is to defend the unenumerated 
rights of private actors, not to expand our few and defined 
powers to regulate anything we may personally dislike. As a 
member of this institution, I find no grounds for government to 
be involved in the game of golf.
    But are there legitimate questions? Could we have 
legitimate hearings? Are there things we should be discussing? 
Of course. Do the 9/11 victims have a legal obligation owed to 
them by the Saudi Arabian government? It is a real question. 
Should we be involved with selling arms to Saudi Arabia? It is 
a real question, should be debated, and we should have votes on 
these things. Should we be involved in the war in Yemen? Nobody 
in Congress ever voted to go to war in Yemen, and why the hell 
are we involved in that war?
    Furthermore, with regard to sports, there is a valid 
discussion that should be going on, and we should have a 
discussion of, and that is the antitrust involvement in sports. 
I think, like most antitrust, it is topsy-turvy. It is flipped 
upside down. It is doing the wrong thing. PGA mentioned they 
have some rules. You join the PGA; you have to obey some rules 
to be part of the PGA. If you do not obey those rules, they 
should have the right to exclude you. That is what associations 
are about, if you do not allow them to have rules.
    The court has totally screwed this up, and Congress has let 
them. The court ruled unanimously that the National Collegiate 
Athletic Association (NCAA) cannot invoke their rules, and so 
they have completely screwed up college athletes. We used to be 
proud. Many of us love watching amateur athletes that were not 
paid. Now everybody that plays basketball in college is going 
to be driving a Bentley or a Rolls Royce. We are going to be 
seeing rap stars instead of basketball stars. This is crazy.
    But you know why it happened? Because Congress sat around 
and said, ``Oh well, because of antitrust we cannot let the 
NCAA do it.'' It went to the court, and the court made the 
ruling, unfortunately, a unanimous ruling based on the law, so 
the law has to change.
    Antitrust should not be involved with associations. It 
should be involved with the PGA. It should not be involved with 
the NCAA. For the most part, antitrust in our country actually 
does the opposite of what it is intended to do.
    I will give you another example. As a physician, if five 
physicians get together and say, ``We do not like Blue Cross 
paying us $80, and we want to get $100 in exams from Blue 
Cross,'' or from United, or from Humana, from some billion-
dollar company, do you know what antitrust does? Antitrust sues 
five doctors and says, ``You cannot talk about this.'' It is 
ridiculous. Antitrust is actually protecting the big people 
versus the small people.
    But it is a unique situation to talk about associations, 
particularly sports associations. Antitrust should let sports 
associations--you do not have to join PGA. You do not have to 
join the sports association. You can be outside the NCAA. But 
the only way they had power was because they had the power of a 
large body, and there was prestige in being part of the NCAA.
    All of that is gone. It is the Wild West, and nobody knows 
what is going to happen to college sports, but nobody is really 
happy about it.
    There always are professional sports, and as someone who 
grew up in a sport that was not one where you were well 
remunerated, I understand the idea of trying to allow some 
contracts. There were some in-betweens on these things. For 
swimmers. Swimmers do not really have professional sports. But 
at the same time there was a way to probably do this that could 
have been done through the NCAA, but the courts gutted the 
NCAA, and Congress sat by and watched this.
    There are legitimate concerns that we could look into, as 
Congress, but I do not think it is a legitimate concern to 
berate private individuals over contracts, to get involved and 
say, ``What are you going to do? Will you promise me the 
contract will not do this?'' That is not the role of government 
to tell people, ``Oh, you cannot make a contract doing this.'' 
No. In a free country you make contracts. They are the business 
of the people making contracts, and government should not be 
involved in this at all.
    I see a certain illegitimacy to the whole proceeding today. 
Valid questions about Saudi Arabia that should be addressed, 
but we are not addressing the valid things because we have a 
show trial, basically, of a private organization, which I think 
is inappropriate.
    Senator Blumenthal. Thank you, Ranking Member Paul. I am 
going to take the prerogative of the Chair to address at least 
the legal issue that you have raised, the constitutional 
question. Congress' authority to investigate here and 
investigate golf comes from Article I, Section 8, of the 
Constitution, which gives us the power to lay and collect taxes 
and to regulate, and therefore, investigate interstate 
commerce. I do not need to tell anyone in this room golf is a 
$100 billion industry. Mr. Dunne himself has referred to the 
billions of dollars, $3.6 billion, I believe, that the PGA Tour 
has provided to charity. In my own State, the Travelers 
Championship brings $60 million to my State annually, and 
millions of dollars to local charities.
    The PGA Tour has a major impact on our economy, our way of 
life, our image in this country, our self-image, and our image 
abroad. The PGA Tour also derives tremendous benefits from tax 
laws established by Congress because it operates as a 
501(c)(6), not-for-profit entity, and that provision of law has 
received little scrutiny. This inquiry may lead to close 
scrutiny of 501(c)(6). A study conducted in 2013 found that 
this benefit was worth at least $200 million to the Tour 
between 1993 and 2013.
    Congress has a long history of conducting oversight on 
matters related to sports. I participated in a number of them 
involving the NCAA, domestic violence in the National Football 
League (NFL), doping in major league baseball, sexual assault 
in women's gymnastics, and anticompetitive practices in 
multiple sports.
    But most importantly, as I said in my opening remarks, this 
hearing and our investigation is ultimately not about golf. We 
are here because we are concerned about the PGA Tour's deal in 
terms of what it means for an authoritarian government to use 
its wealth to capture American institutions, to capture 
American institutions, because we are an open society. I have 
joined Senator Paul in many of his amendments, advocacy, and so 
forth, involving the Saudi government, and I appreciate much of 
what he has said about it, but I do think that there is not 
only a legitimate role here, an imperative role for this 
Committee and the U.S. Congress.
    Senator Paul. Point of inquiry?
    Senator Blumenthal. Yes, sir.
    Senator Paul. Nothing in Article I, Section 8 of the 
Constitution allows Congress to intervene or involve itself in 
private contractual negotiations.
    Senator Blumenthal. If that is an inquiry, the answer is 
nothing explicitly authorizes intervention. But as you well 
know, antitrust law, consumer protection law, many other laws 
involve protection of public interests and individual interests 
because the public interest demands it.
    Senator Scott.

               OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR SCOTT

    Senator Scott. Sure. I did not get to participate in the 
whole hearing, and I have to go to another hearing, but first 
off, thank you for being here. You are a great Florida company. 
As you know, golf is really important to our economy. I cannot 
imagine doing what you are doing, trying to negotiate a deal, 
when you have cameras in front of you. My prior life was 
negotiating deals and doing deals, and it is very difficult to 
get a deal done that way, so I think that is pretty frustrating 
for you guys.
    But could you talk about, take a State like Florida, or you 
can pick any other State, the importance of what golf is doing 
from a charity standpoint, from building a global brand 
standpoint, and how important golf has become to this country.
    Mr. Price. Senator Scott, I will be happy to speak to that, 
and I am happy to tell you that in addition to the PGA Tour 
being headquartered in Florida, and our flagship Tournament 
Players Club (TPC) Sawgrass being there, we conduct 10 
tournaments in your State. Those tournaments generate over $30 
million for charity annually. Cumulatively, our tournaments in 
the State of Florida have generated over $800 million for 
charity, and our annual economic impact in Florida is over $800 
million.
    Importantly, those are the types of things that we are 
trying to protect, our ability to do that. If we can move from 
the framework agreement to the definitive agreement in which 
the PGA Tour has absolute control, we will be able to continue 
to do that, and we will be able to expand our economic impact 
in Florida and across the Nation. We are in 34 States now. We 
have an economic impact of over $4 billion. We think we can 
grow that significantly if we can reach the definitive 
agreement.
    Mr. Dunne. Thank you, Senator Scott. I think golf is a 
force for good. I think if people get to know each other and 
play golf I think it will solve a lot of problems. I think to 
the degree that golf is a global game, it is incumbent of all 
of us to try to reach out and try to avoid things, and maybe 
there is a possibility of meeting people with different faiths, 
different religions, different colors, that we can get to know 
better, and maybe we can have a better world. That is how I 
look at it.
    Senator Scott. Thank you. Thanks for being here. Good luck.
    Senator Blumenthal. Senator Marshall.

             OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR MARSHALL

    Senator Marshall. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and welcome to 
our guests.
    When I think about life at this level, typically 
motivations are sex, money, or power. As we look at this merger 
I am trying to figure out why. Where is the money? Where is the 
power? I will start with you, Mr. Price. Who is losing out on 
money and who is losing out on power in this deal?
    Mr. Price. Thank you, Senator. We had two options. One was 
being in a situation where we faced the threat of professional 
golf being taken over by LIV Golf, which is 100 percent funded 
by the Public Investment Fund. The second option is for the PGA 
Tour to continue to lead professional golf, operated in 
accordance with our----
    Senator Marshall. Specifically, who? Who is going to be 
making less money and who is going to have less power because 
of this merger? Someone is losing out. I would assume that is 
why we are here today.
    Mr. Price. Senator, I would describe it as a situation of 
where the PGA Tour stays in the same position that it is in. 
Our players and our charities win. I do not know that anyone is 
losing. I think it benefits all of our constituents.
    Senator Marshall. There are no individuals that will be 
losing because of this, financially.
    Mr. Price. No, sir, because we are healing a fracture, a 
fracture in professional golf.
    Senator Marshall. Mr. Dunne, same question for you, I 
guess, is who is losing out? Who is the loser in this? Who is 
losing money? Who is losing power?
    Mr. Dunne. That is a very good question, Senator. The Tour 
of golf is the winner because we continue to uphold the 
standards and traditions of the meritocracy. Professional golf 
is hard. You have to really work hard. It is fragile. You have 
windows----
    Senator Marshall. In your opinion there is no private 
investors--I do not understand the complexity of your nonprofit 
organization, but there are no individuals that will be losing 
money because of this, you do not think, no individuals losing 
any power.
    Mr. Dunne. The lawyers will lose money, absolutely, and 
that is $100 million a year, between everybody.
    Senator Marshall. OK. Who has the most to gain from a power 
and a financial--I will stick with you, Mr. Dunne--who is 
gaining from this financially, and with power?
    Mr. Dunne. I am sorry. Are you asking me?
    Senator Marshall. Yes, sir. Yes.
    Mr. Dunne. I think the PGA Tour definitely stays intact and 
becomes more powerful, and I think, I hope that in a more 
constructive way, Yasir gets a more productive role in the game 
of golf, because I think the PGA Tour product is vastly 
superior. That is my opinion.
    Senator Marshall. Thank you. Mr. Price, who do you think 
gains the most from this financially, and control?
    Mr. Price. Thank you, Senator. I firmly believe it is the 
PGA Tour's constituents, our players, our fans, our sponsors, 
and charity all clearly win under the framework agreement, if 
we can reach a definitive agreement.
    Senator Marshall. OK. I am sure this question has been 
asked earlier. I have been in another committee. But as I 
review the document provided us, a lot of this was done in the 
dark of the night, so to speak, and I think some of even your 
own Members were surprised when they saw this deal put 
together.
    Mr. Dunne, was what your reaction? Were you on the inside 
when all this was happening? I do not recall.
    Mr. Dunne. Yes, Senator, I had originally reached out.
    Senator Marshall. OK. You were in from the beginning. How 
did some of your friends and long-term members react to this, 
to you personally?
    Mr. Dunne. Twofold. They were stunned, and the rollout was 
very misleading and inaccurate, which is everyone's fault. 
There is no merger. There is no deal. There is simply an 
agreement to try to get to an agreement and settle the 
lawsuits. You had an initial surge of anxiety due to the 
ineffective and inaccurate rollout, and now it is settling in 
that there is nothing there yet, and we are having the reality 
of having to try to figure out something which is done with 
unbelievable transparency. There is an issue about sometimes 
too many cooks in the kitchen. In this case everyone in the 
world is in the kitchen, so it is going to be difficult, but we 
are going to work hard at it.
    Senator Marshall. Thank you for that answer.
    Today we are here on the Permanent Subcommittee on 
Investigations of the U.S. Senate Committee on Homeland 
Security and Governmental Affairs, and trying to figure out why 
this issue was raised to this level. I have to tell you, no one 
back home has asked me, ``Hey, what does the Senate think about 
this merger?''
    At the same time, every day somebody asks me, ``Why were we 
funding viral gain-of-function research in Wuhan, China?'' They 
ask me, ``Why is the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention 
(CDC) now pushing a medication that is not safe to be used to 
help biological men make a milk-like substance,'' the CDC, in 
direct contradiction to the Food and Drug Administration (FDA). 
They ask me about the President's son, and they are concerned 
that he is running a criminal enterprise out of the White 
House, and now more questions than answers on the cocaine found 
in the White House. Those are the questions that people ask me 
about, why are we not investigating them.
    I do not see that this is prudent to the daily lives of 
American working families who are paying twice as much for 
groceries and gasoline than they were 2 years ago. Many of you 
have said that the LIV organization is the Saudi's way of 
sportswashing, and I want to dig a little bit deeper into that. 
What was China doing when they hosted the Olympics but a few 
years ago but sportswashing, trying to wash their enslavement 
of hundreds of thousands, perhaps millions, of Muslims, trying 
to sportswash their purchase of thousands of United States 
farmland acres, to sportswash their research into bioterrorism 
weapons. Why are we not investigating those issues? Why are we 
not investigating the 90 percent of the counterfeits that come 
into this country are made in China, 90 percent of the fentanyl 
that comes into this country is made in China. They steal $500 
billion of intellectual property from us every year. Those are 
the things that we should be investigating. Those are the 
things that Kansans want to know.
    I look forward to the day when we have honest discussions 
in this Committee and our investigation powers to investigate 
our own out-of-control Federal bureaucracy that actually 
impacts the American people.
    I have no further questions, Mr. Chairman, but I do want to 
wish the very best of success to Topeka, Kansas' own PGA great, 
Gary Woodland. We are very proud of him. Thank you so much.
    Senator Blumenthal. Thanks, Senator Marshall. Senator 
Hawley.

              OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR HAWLEY

    Senator Hawley. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. Thanks 
to the witnesses for being here. I think I heard you testify to 
the Chairman a little bit ago that you may take $1 billion or 
more from the Saudis. Let us talk about some of the money that 
you have taken from Communist China, speaking of sportswashing. 
What can you tell me, Mr. Price, about the PGA Tour China 
Series?
    Mr. Price. Thank you, Senator. The PGA Tour China Series 
was last operated in 2019. We have not operated it since then 
and have no plans to continue that series.
    Senator Hawley. You do not have a PGA Tour in China at all 
right now?
    Mr. Price. We do not.
    Senator Hawley. What about the PGA China Tour? Let us look 
at the quote here from Mr. Greg Gilligan. ``PGA Tour China is 
truly thrilled to be partnering with Shangkai Sports on the PGA 
Tour Series China. Shangkai is a world-class organization with 
great experience of connecting expectations of international 
sports bodies with an understanding of the Chinese market.'' 
This is not happening?
    Mr. Price. I am not sure, Senator, what the date on that 
quote is, but we have not conducted the PGA Tour China Series 
since 2019.
    Senator Hawley. You just signed a 20-year agreement to 
conduct a Tour series in China. Correct?
    Mr. Price. It has not been conducted since 2019.
    Senator Hawley. Did you take $45 million in financing from 
the Yao Group to conduct PGA Tour China?
    Mr. Price. No, sir, we did not.
    Senator Hawley. Your spokesperson said, this is Laury 
Livsey, ``PGA Tour China is owned and operated by the PGA Tour 
and supported by the General Administration of Sports of China 
and the China Golf Association.'' So you are saying this does 
not exist anymore. When was it shut down?
    Mr. Price. It has not operated since 2019.
    Senator Hawley. Did you return the money?
    Mr. Price. We were not paid $45 million. I do not recall 
the specific details of the agreement. We received a sanction 
fee, as I recall, for the series of events, and there was an 
operator within China that actually operated the events.
    Senator Hawley. You are saying you do not know anything 
about this.
    Mr. Price. No, sir, I did not say that. I said it has not 
been operated since 2019, and I do not recall the specifics of 
the agreement, but I can certainly get those to you.
    Senator Hawley. I know the specifics of the agreement. The 
Chinese private equity firm, Yao Capital, financed the PGA Tour 
Shangkai deal with a $45 million investment. The Yao Capital 
firm has direct ties to the Chinese Communist Party (CCP). Does 
that concern you? It concerns me.
    Mr. Price. Senator, we are not operating there anymore, and 
I believe I can get the details. That money went directly to an 
operator in China, not the PGA Tour.
    Senator Hawley. It was a deal between the PGA Tour and a 
Chinese company to do a series of events. You at least admit 
those events happened just a few years ago, right?
    Mr. Price. They did happen for a series of years.
    Senator Hawley. OK. You are telling me that you are not 
going to do any further business in China. You have no 
contracts with any Chinese entities, and you are not going to 
operate PGA events in China.
    Mr. Price. We have no plans to continue that series at this 
point in time.
    Senator Hawley. You are not going to operate any other 
series. You are not going to do anything in China. Do I 
understand you correctly?
    Mr. Price. We have no present plans to do that.
    Senator Hawley. Has the PGA, given your past business 
relationships with Chinese entities, have you taken a stand, a 
stance, on the Uyghur concentration camps? Have you condemned 
the genocide there?
    Mr. Price. Senator, we firmly support human rights, and we 
are very concerned about what has happened there, but we leave 
those type of matters to our U.S. Government. But we certainly 
do not condone that type of activity.
    Senator Hawley. Wait a minute. When you say you leave the 
matters to the United States government, I am asking you, will 
you speak out against the persecution and internment of Uyghurs 
in China? You have done business in China. You have conducted 
Tour events in China. You have accepted money from Chinese 
entities in some form of a partnership. Do you condemn the 
concentration camps that currently, as we sit here and speak, 
are imprisoning Uyghurs, religious minorities, in that nation?
    Mr. Price. Senator, we certainly do not condone or support 
that type of activity. Yes, sir.
    Senator Hawley. OK. Let us talk a little bit about your 
lobbying activity as it relates to the Saudi deal. Public 
reports say that you paid lobbyists last year, in one quarter 
of the year, six figures or more as to lobby Congress on the 
Saudi golf league proposals. What was that related to?
    Mr. Price. Senator, we went to Members of Congress as we 
faced a very threat to our existence, to make them aware of 
what the Public Investment Fund was attempting to do through 
its operations of the LIV Golf series.
    Senator Hawley. I mean, make Congress aware and ask for 
what? What did you want this body to do?
    Mr. Price. Senator, anything that the Congress could do 
within its power to help preserve an American institution.
    Senator Hawley. This is before you agreed to take $1 
billion from the same people that you were lobbying against a 
year ago?
    Mr. Price. Senator, we faced a choice. One was to allow 
professional golf to be taken over and operated by the Public 
Investment Fund and the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia. The second was 
to allow the PGA Tour to continue to lead it, in accordance 
with our mission and our values for the benefit of our players 
and charity.
    Senator Hawley. Let me come back to, if I could, this issue 
with the PGA Tour of China Series. What did you not disclose 
your activities and your partnership with Yao Capital and the 
Shangkai Group? What did you not disclose it on your Form 990? 
You are a tax-exempt organization. Is that right? I think you 
testified to that effect.
    Mr. Price. 501(c)(6) tax-exempt organization.
    Senator Hawley. OK. You have to file a Form 990. Is that 
correct?
    Mr. Price. Yes, sir.
    Senator Hawley. The Form 990 contains a Schedule F. Is that 
correct?
    Mr. Price. Yes.
    Senator Hawley. This Schedule F requires you to disclose 
any activities conducted overseas, including unrelated trade or 
business programs, services, fundraising activities, 
investments, or maintaining offices, employees, or agents for 
the purpose of conducting any such activities. Your Form 990s 
did not disclose anything related to your dealings in China. 
Why not?
    Mr. Price. Senator, our intention is to fully comply with 
all the disclosure requirements on Form 990. If there is a 
disclosure requirement that we should have made that we did 
not, we will get that corrected.
    Senator Hawley. Were you attempting to paper over what you 
had done in China and your partnership with these Chinese 
entities?
    Mr. Price. Absolutely not, Senator.
    Senator Hawley. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    Senator Blumenthal. Thanks, Senator Hawley.
    We are going to begin a second round of questions, if any 
of our colleagues arrive in the meantime. We are also, I think, 
scheduled to have a vote at 11:30, so at some point we may have 
to take a brief recess.
    I want to come back to the disparagement issue and the non-
disparagement agreement so everybody understands, I get it that 
you do not feel that you have a deal. But the litigation is 
gone, right?
    Mr. Price. Yes, sir.
    Senator Blumenthal. It is history.
    Mr. Price. Yes, sir.
    Senator Blumenthal. Whatever threat LIV Golf represents to 
you, it is no longer the costs of litigation. Tomorrow you 
could go through an initial public offering (IPO), you could go 
to private equity funders, you could go to the players if they 
wanted to own as well as be members of the PGA Tour. You have a 
lot of options right now. Correct?
    Mr. Price. Senator, if we chose one of those options we 
would still be facing a real threat that LIV Golf and the $700 
billion Public Investment Fund would continue to recruit our 
top players----
    Senator Blumenthal. But Mr. Price, players have stood by 
you. Mr. Dunne himself--and I want to hold up this quote, which 
I think is so powerful, talking about Tiger Woods and the offer 
of $700 million--``it takes a lot to say no to a bucketful of 
money''.\1\ These players, who stood by you, are heroes. They 
deserve our thanks. I am betting--because I never want to bet 
against America--that America will be on your side, thick or 
thin. Do you agree, Mr. Dunne?
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \1\ The quote referenced by Senator Blumenthal appears in the 
Appendix on page 342.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Mr. Dunne. Senator, it is an excellent line of questioning, 
and thank you for raising it. We are contractually obligated to 
try to see if we can come to a deal that makes sense, will meet 
all our obligations. As Senator Johnson and Senator Marshall 
pointed out, when it is in this massive transparency it will 
make things difficult. If it ends up we do not get to an 
agreement, which is possible, LIV Golf will still be there, 
they will still have a lot of money, and we will have to do all 
the things you are talking about.
    Senator Blumenthal. You still have the choice to stand up 
against sportswashing, against the Saudi monarchy, against the 
hundreds of billions of dollars, and maybe a lot more that the 
Saudis will throw at you and stand up for America because 
America is going to stand up for you, and maybe you are 
contractually bound to give it your best efforts to reach an 
agreement. But there is something that stinks about this path 
that you are on right now because it is a surrender, and it is 
all about the money, and that is the reason for the backlash 
that you have seen, Mr. Price.
    The equity ownership interest that the Saudis will have--
and that is a term from this agreement--gives them financial 
dominance. They control the purse strings. You may say that 
your objective is to prevent a non-disparagement clause, but as 
I read the non-disparagement clause in this agreement, ``each 
party agrees and covenants that it will not, at any time, 
directly or indirectly, make, publish, or communicate to any 
person or entity or in any public forum any defamatory or 
disparaging remarks, comments, or statements concerning the 
other party, their affiliates, and ultimate beneficial owners 
or their respective businesses, directors, employees, officers, 
shareholders, members, or advisors.'' That is about as broad a 
non-disparagement clause as I have ever seen, and I have been a 
law enforcer for most of my career, as the U.S. Attorney in 
Connecticut, as Attorney General (AG) of my State for 20 years, 
as a private litigator.
    In 2019, General Manager Daryl Morey of the Houston Rockets 
tweeted support for Hong Kong. The National Basketball 
Association (NBA) stood by him, even though China imposed 
significant economic costs on the NBA in an attempt to get the 
league to suppress his speech.
    Will you commit today, Mr. Price, that the PGA Tour will 
not punish any members who criticize the Kingdom of Saudi 
Arabia or human rights anywhere, regardless of this new 
relationship with PIF? Can you commit that the final agreement, 
and the PGA Tour, will not punish anyone for criticism of 
anybody in Saudi Arabia?
    Mr. Price. Thank you, Senator. I can tell you that under 
the framework agreement, our players are absolutely free to 
speak their mind without any cause for----
    Senator Blumenthal. You might want to check with Governor 
al-Rumayyan, because you are a membership organization. Your 
commitment is on behalf of that organization. The athletes are 
members of it. You do not have to be a legal scholar to know 
that there is potential liability here.
    Mr. Price. Senator, our position is that the players are 
free to speak their mind under that agreement, and that is the 
way we would interpret it.
    Senator Blumenthal. Will you commit to protect player 
expression, go to court if necessary, re-litigate, sue PIF or 
anyone who tries to inhibit their speech?
    Mr. Price. Senator, we are a membership organization, and 
we always take our player interests very importantly, and we 
would try to protect their interests.
    Senator Blumenthal. The answer to that question should be, 
``Yes, we will do it proudly. We will protect our players.''
    Mr. Price. We will protect our players proudly.
    You asked me about the definitive agreement. We would not 
recommend any definitive agreement to the board for approval 
that had such a clause in it.
    Senator Blumenthal. That is less than what I would like to 
see as a commitment here.
    Let me turn to some of the other questions that were 
raised. By the way, the agreement that has been put in the 
public realm is the result of your disclosing it. Correct?
    Mr. Price. Yes, sir.
    Senator Blumenthal. OK. It is not like we ferreted it out 
or infringed on the privacy of your negotiations. You disclosed 
it voluntarily.
    Mr. Price. It was disclosed to this Committee and then we 
disclosed it.
    Senator, if I could add one other thing----
    Senator Blumenthal. Sure.
    Mr. Price [continuing]. With regard to, because I think, 
there may not be a clear understanding with regard to control. 
We do not have an agreement now. We only have a framework 
agreement. We would not move to a definitive agreement unless 
the PGA Tour is in complete control of the new entity, which 
will be a PGA Tour subsidiary controlled by the PGA Tour board 
and operated for the benefit of all of our constituents--our 
players, our fans, our sponsors, and our charity. If that is 
not where we end up, we will not even recommend approval, much 
less the board would not approve that.
    Senator Blumenthal. I am not here to argue with you or 
parse the terms of the agreement, Mr. Price, but the simple 
fact is that the Saudi government is the dominant owner here. 
It has the equity interest. It controls the purse strings. It 
has the money, and the money is the reason you surrendered in 
this agreement. The money will be there going forward. A 
billion dollars is just the beginning. I think the American 
people can see through some of what you may be stating with the 
best of intentions.
    Let me follow up on the question that Senator Hawley 
raised. Will you commit that you will have no PGA Tour events 
in China going forward?
    Mr. Price. Senator, I am not in a position to commit the 
Tour indefinitely, but we do not have anything planned for the 
foreseeable future.
    Senator Blumenthal. That will depend on what the new 
entity, the NewCo, decides.
    Mr. Price. The PGA Tour will have full control over that 
entity, and it will determine its schedule and where our 
tournaments are located, or otherwise we would not recommend 
approval of the definitive agreement.
    Senator Blumenthal. Will you commit to have no PGA Tour 
events in Russia?
    Mr. Price. Senator, I cannot commit the PGA Tour for the 
long term, but we certainly do not have any plans to conduct 
any events in Russia.
    Senator Blumenthal. What are the current assets of the PGA 
Tour?
    Mr. Price. Our total assets are approximately $3 billion, 
net assets that Senator Johnson referenced earlier, $1.3 
billion.
    Senator Blumenthal. I am sorry. Which figure is correct?
    Mr. Price. Net. The gross assets, approximately $3 billion. 
Net assets Senator Johnson referenced earlier are approximately 
$1.3 billion.
    Senator Blumenthal. I have a breakdown for 2021, of the 
PGA's revenue. Maybe we can put that chart\1\ up. The PGA Tour 
brought in over $1.5 billion in revenue in 2021. Less than 3 
percent of it, $43,694,020, was expensed as charitable grants. 
I do not mean to minimize that amount. It is a lot of money. 
But my question is where did the rest of it go?
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \1\ The chart referenced by Senator Blumenthal appears in the 
Appendix on page 341.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Mr. Price. The rest of our revenue would have been the cost 
to produce the revenue, and our largest cost is what we pay our 
players who compete for prize money through our tournaments.
    Senator Blumenthal. How much of that money went to players?
    Mr. Price. I would have to check, in 2021. I can tell you, 
in 2023 we will distribute almost $1 billion to our players.
    Senator Blumenthal. Out of how much revenue?
    Mr. Price. Our gross revenues in 2023 are approximately 
$2.1 billion.
    Senator Blumenthal. Would it be fair to say that the 
remainder of that amount goes to produce the tournaments?
    Mr. Price. It is cost of producing the tournaments. It is 
the cost of generating the revenues. There is charity 
distributed also.
    If I could add, Senator, for clarification, we are a 
501(c)(6) membership or trade association. Our mission is to 
generate economic opportunities for our players. But we have 
voluntarily structured our tournaments in a way so that the net 
proceeds of our tournaments go to charity. In addition to what 
you had on that chart, there are tournaments who are giving 
their net proceeds to tournaments, because we partner with 
501(c)(3) organizations. That is how we generated over $215 
million for charity last year, and over $3.6 billion 
cumulatively.
    Senator Blumenthal. You own a number of the tournaments. 
Like the Travelers in Connecticut you own. Correct?
    Mr. Price. No, sir. We partner with a 501(c)(3) 
organization who conducts that tournament.
    Senator Blumenthal. You partner with them. But who owns the 
tournament?
    Mr. Price. We conduct the competition, but the local 
charity organization that we work with in Hartford sells the 
tickets, the hospitality, and sponsorship, and the net proceeds 
they generate, which are annually I think are approximately $2 
million, goes back to charity in the local Hartford community.
    Senator Blumenthal. If this litigation is ended and your 
revenue is almost $3 billion a year, why do you need the 
Saudis' billion dollars?
    Mr. Price. We did not seek the Saudis. We were in a 
situation of where we faced a real threat of----
    Senator Blumenthal. But you could go elsewhere for $1 
billion, $3 billion, maybe $50 billion. Correct?
    Mr. Price. We could, but if we went down that path we would 
end up giving up total control of the PGA Tour. In this 
particular situation, not only did we preserve the Tour's 
future leadership of professional golf----
    Senator Blumenthal. But you could insist on the same 
requirements for independence of the Tour that you are 
insisting on, you say, from the Saudis.
    Mr. Price. We could potentially try that approach, but we 
would still face the threat of a $700 billion fund recruiting 
our players and operating a league in an irrational economic 
manner.
    Senator Blumenthal. Again, I can only emphasize to you, Mr. 
Price, that your players, like Tiger Woods, gave up hundreds of 
millions of dollars. They stood strong. I hope the PGA Tour 
will as well.
    I may have more questions, but apologies to my colleagues. 
I am going to turn to Senator Johnson for his second round.
    Senator Johnson. Let me first state, Mr. Chairman, I do not 
think it is appropriate to be asking these representatives of 
the PGA to make assurances in terms of what they will and will 
not do. Obviously, they have to assure us that they will follow 
the law, but exactly how they operate, they are a private 
organization. They have to deal with a complex set of issues in 
terms of running a league for the benefit of their players, and 
I would say for fans.
    I think things have gotten muddled here. First of all, the 
PGA never would have sought additional funding. You did not 
need it. The only reason you are looking for funding from the 
PIF is an accommodation for PIF to have a seat at the table in 
running golf. If you do not offer them that seat, they will 
take their $700 billion, a portion of that, and they will just 
keep picking off players, one by one, until they destroy the 
game of golf at the highest competitive level.
    Mr. Dunne, is that not how you see it?
    Mr. Dunne. Thank you, Senator. It is very important that we 
did not decide one day we will go over to Riyadh and bring 
these guys in here.
    Senator Johnson. You were highly reluctant to reach out to 
them.
    Mr. Dunne. We got to the table because of the existence of 
LIV. They own 100 percent of LIV. They have billions of dollars 
in LIV. They have no economic constraint. They have no time 
constraint. When you deal with a normal investor they want a 
return quickly. They have a long horizon. I do not exactly know 
all their thought process, but they do it differently.
    They sued us. We did not decide to sue them. They took our 
players. Their entire existence is based on taking more of our 
players. That is just the reality. We are not complaining about 
it. That is what it is.
    Senator Johnson. First of all, you would be justified in 
complaining about it. You faced an existential threat. You 
faced this for 2 years. You engaged in litigation and spent, 
what, about $50 million trying to defend yourself, and all of a 
sudden there was a way out of this.
    Mr. Dunne. Potentially.
    Senator Johnson. There was a truce, because of some 
favorable court hearings or rulings, but there was no guarantee 
that you were going to continue to win court rulings. You could 
have lost.
    I will answer Senator Marshall's question. From what I 
know, it seems like you have achieved, in a really bad 
situation, between a rock and a hard place, you actually carved 
out a win-win situation. Again, that is not to speak to the 
sportswashing aspect of this and the concerns. Again, Mr. 
Dunne, if anybody has a concern of what happened on 9/11, it is 
you. You lost, again, 40 percent of your colleagues. You are a 
mentor in this.
    We need to recognize the reality you faced, that you still 
face. There is no deal. There is no guarantee you are going to 
have a deal. If you do not get a deal, you will have the Saudis 
willing to spend billions and billions, and at some point in 
time players that were loyal to the PGA Tour will say, ``This 
is not going away. I am chump for not accepting $10 million, 
$50 million, $100 million to go over to this league. We will 
leave the PGA Tour behind.'' Now rather than playing for the 
purity of the competition, for the title, `it is just about 
money. I make $10 million whether I win or not, just by showing 
up.'' That destroys the game of golf. That is my perspective of 
this.
    Can you tell me where I am wrong, or where I am right?
    Mr. Dunne. Senator, golf is a little different. You have to 
show up and dig it out of the ground. Senator Blumenthal, I 
guess that quote I said, that it takes a lot to turn down a lot 
of money, if I recall I think it was in reference to Tiger 
Woods, and he is the example of that. He digs it out of the 
ground.
    It is hard. It is hard to say no to all of that, and we 
have a lot of unbelievably gutsy guys that love the game, that 
have said no, and we want to support them every way we can, one 
way or another. We will be there, and we will do that.
    Senator Johnson. By the way, it sounds like the PIF, 
reading the documents behind this, that they were recognizing 
the players that stayed true to the PGA Tour and they were 
going to figure out some way to compensate that. I saw that in 
the documents. They were obviously aware of that. Correct?
    I am running out of time, but I want underscore. My concern 
about holding this hearing--and I could say a whole lot more--
but I do not want to queer the deal. This is a delicate 
negotiation. There is nothing certain about this. Again, from 
what I say, out of an awful situation, Mr. Dunne, by you 
reaching out, and the other people negotiating this, are 
getting about as good a deal as we can expect, that is about a 
win-win situation, recognizing what Mr. al-Rumayyan was looking 
for, a seat at the table, some say in how golf operates, but no 
control. You retain that control.
    My suggestion--and again, I do not say that Congress does 
not have a role to play. We talked about that in terms of 
antitrust, and maybe once there is a deal to come back and take 
a look at this. But, for the time being, Mr. Chairman, I would 
recommend we give these guys the space to negotiate something. 
I think their motivations are pure. They are trying to preserve 
this game. They are trying to do right by their players. They 
are trying to do right by this country. Give them the space to 
negotiate a deal, and then if we have a problem with it we can 
come back and look at it later.
    But Mr. Price and Mr. Dunne, do you have any comments on 
that?
    Mr. Price. I agree with what you said, Senator Johnson. We 
are trying to negotiate a deal that preserves our leadership 
role in professional golf so that we can fulfill our mission 
for our players and charity. If we cannot do that as we 
negotiate the deal we will not recommend a definitive agreement 
for approval.
    Senator Johnson. Again, if you do not get a deal the Saudis 
will keep pouring billions into this. Over time, those players 
who have shown the loyalty to the PGA Tour will at some point 
in time say, ``I have to provide for family.''
    Mr. Dunne, you talked to me in my office. Golf, you are two 
bad swings away from losing the confidence to be able to 
compete at that high level. Pretty tenuous. All of a sudden a 
deal with LIV could be pretty attractive.
    Mr. Dunne. Senator, there is no denying that, and some 
players that have went have expressed that, that that is a 
reality. It is hard. Professional golf is very hard. If we are 
able to get to an agreement, a definitive, which--and candidly, 
I appreciate Senator Blumenthal's concerns.
    Senator Johnson. We all do.
    Mr. Dunne. We are all concerned about the same things. With 
that good guidance it will help us in the negotiation, to know 
what is important or not. But if we do get to an agreement, the 
players that stayed, we want to do everything we can for them, 
and we want to do everything we can for the game, and we want 
to do everything for the sponsors and the charities, and that 
is what we are trying to do. That is what we are really trying 
to do.
    Senator Johnson. Again, I appreciate your challenge, I 
appreciate what you are up against, and I wish you the best of 
luck.
    Mr. Dunne. Thank you.
    Mr. Price. Thank you.
    Senator Blumenthal. I have a number of responses, but in 
the interest of deference to my colleagues who are waiting to 
ask questions I am going to turn to Senator Carper.

              OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR CARPER

    Senator Carper. Mr. Chairman, thanks. Thanks so much for 
bringing us together here today. Mr. Dunne and Mr. Price, it is 
good to see you. Thank you for your time and for your input.
    As the former Chairman of this Committee, the Homeland 
Security Committee, and as actually the former Ranking Member 
of this Subcommittee that is gathered here today, I hope that 
this the first of a number of hearings that will provide our 
colleagues an opportunity to work together on a range of issues 
that will benefit the American people.
    Mr. Dunne and Mr. Price, again we thank you for joining us 
in an effort to shine some line on a topic that has generated a 
whole lot of interest, and not just from Congress but from 
sports fans and concerned citizens here at home and probably 
beyond our borders.
    The proposed framework agreement between the PGA Tour and 
Saudi-based Public Investment Fund is a complex issue that will 
likely impact the game of professional golf for a long time, 
maybe decades to come, and may set a precedent for other 
professional sports leagues here in the United States. I am 
aware that there are probably more questions than answers at 
this early stage, but I am glad that we have an opportunity to 
start asking them today.
    I go back and forth on a train most nights to Delaware. It 
is an easy train ride, about an hour and a half, and my wife 
and I live there. Oftentimes she will say to me, ``What are you 
all doing today? What are you working on today?'' and ``At the 
end of the day, what happened?'' She will ask me, I am sure, 
when I get home tonight, ``What did you work on today?''
    She is from North Carolina. She was born in North Carolina. 
I was born in West Virginia, an unlikely place to have an 
interest in golf, I would say. But there was a golfer there 
named Sammy Snead. Before there was Jack Nicklaus, before there 
was Arnold Palmer there was Sammy Snead. It was bigger than 
life, in the State of West Virginia, where my sister and I were 
born. Later we would live in a place called Danville, Virginia.
    My dad would actually take me with him not to play golf but 
to caddy. They would have a foursome that would play every 
couple of weeks, and I would get to caddy and make a few 
dollars. One day one of the foursome did not show up, and my 
dad said, ``How would you like to play golf?'' I was like 12 
years old. I got to use his clubs. When I stood beside the golf 
clubs they were as tall as me. He made me count every stroke. I 
shot that day a 214. [Laughter.]
    But I was encouraged by my dad and the others who were 
playing golf that day. They thought I might have set some kind 
of record, which is probably true. But the next time I played I 
cut 65 strokes off my score.
    Mr. Price. Good trend.
    Senator Carper. I could only do better. There were talks in 
the foursome, including my dad, that I was marked for 
greatness, the second Sammy Snead. That was not to happen.
    Still, I enjoy the game of golf, and I know, Mr. Price and 
Mr. Dunne, I know that you love the game of golf as well. I 
think that you and the PGA Tour can be proud of the values of 
the Tour and the charitable mission of the Tour. In your 
testimony I think you both state that the PGA Tour has 
contributed millions of dollars to charities local to where 
tournaments are played, including in Wilmington, Delaware, 
which hosted, last year, the Bayerische Motoren Werke (BMW) 
Championship. On the Ladies Professional Golf Association 
(LPGA) side we hosted, for many years, the Ladies PGA 
Championship in Delaware, and raised a whole lot of money for a 
very good cause there in our State too.
    I am told that the Evans Scholars Foundation in Delaware, 
which provides tuition and housing assistance for low-income 
college students who work as caddies, that they received 
additional funding thanks to the effort that we are talking 
about here today. I am grateful for the support that your 
organization has lent to our State and to countless others.
    Having said that, I am going to say I am concerned, as I am 
sure you are too, that Saudi Arabia's human rights record runs 
counter to the Tour's stated values of inclusion and respect. 
My question, as a result, just maybe one question for both of 
you. Are you concerned that the proposed framework agreement 
will provide the Saudi Arabian government the opportunity to 
hide its human rights record behind the Tour's values.
    Also, I know that my colleague, I think our Chairman, 
Senator Blumenthal, may have touched on this issue earlier 
during the hearing. But if the proposed framework agreement 
becomes finalized, can you definitively tell us that the PGA 
Tour and its players will be able to speak freely about the 
human rights record of Saudi Arabia?
    Mr. Price. Thank you, Senator, and yes, I can tell you that 
if the framework agreement, if we move from a framework 
agreement to a definitive agreement, our players will be freely 
able to speak about Saudi Arabia. The PGA Tour fully supports 
human rights. We support complete access to our game from all 
individuals, whether they are participating or attending our 
events. The only way we will move forward with a definitive 
agreement is if the PGA Tour is in complete control and our 
tournaments continue to be operated in accordance with our 
mission and our values, which includes operated for our players 
but also the charity, as you so appropriately mentioned, with 
the BMW Championship that was conducted in Wilmington last 
year.
    Senator Carper. All right. Thank you. Mr. Dunne, do you 
want to add anything to that?
    Mr. Dunne. Senator, I completely, obviously support both 
what you said and what Ron said. Critical in this framework 
agreement and the hope toward a definitive agreement is the 
control. We absolutely agree with what you said, and we would 
not go ahead with, it is not going to get any support without 
it.
    Senator Carper. All right. Thank you both. My time has 
expired. Thank you.
    Senator Blumenthal. Thanks, Senator Carper. I will 
recognize colleagues for a second round if you wish to use the 
time. Senator Marshall.
    Senator Marshall. Thank you again, Mr. Chairman, and 
Senator Carper, thank you for your thoughtful questions, as 
always, and the wisdom that you always pass on.
    I want to go back to the antitrust issue for a second. I am 
not an attorney. I am trying to understand the process. But it 
is my understanding that the PGA Tour was under some type of an 
antitrust issue investigation. As you were going forward what 
type of advice were your attorneys giving you if you did this 
merger? Is it going to increase or decrease your risk of 
exposure to an antitrust issue? Mr. Price.
    Mr. Price. Thank you, Senator. Yes, we were undergoing an 
investigation with regard to our regulations and how they 
applied to the players that we had suspended who joined the LIV 
Golf league. We have been notified that the antitrust 
regulators are also going to look at our framework agreement, 
and we plan to fully cooperate with that investigation.
    But we do see this: if we are able to more from a framework 
agreement to a definitive agreement, it is going to heal a 
fracture in golf. The fracture in golf could have led to less 
fan interest and a decreased product and opportunities for all 
professional golfers. We think, as a result of----
    Senator Marshall. My question is will this increase or 
decrease your antitrust risk. Is that what the attorneys are 
giving you any advice, this merger?
    Mr. Price. The regulators are certainly taking a look at 
it. We believe that it should not violate the antitrust rules, 
but we plan to fully cooperate with that investigation.
    Senator Marshall. Thank you, Mr. Price.
    Let me go to Mr. Dunne again. Would it be fair to say that 
some golf venues benefit from the traditional PGA Tour and 
other golf venues were benefiting from the new LIV tournaments 
going on? Mr. Dunne.
    Mr. Dunne. Thank you, Senator. I want to make sure I 
understand. Definitely where the PGA Tour is, the local 
communities, as Senator Blumenthal talked about in Connecticut, 
they, by intention, design, total focus, they will definitely 
benefit.
    Senator Marshall. The same is true for the LIV venues as 
well, that those venues were making money.
    Mr. Dunne. I think they get paid money. I do not know if 
the crowds are quite the same.
    Senator Marshall. Right. As you all were concerned about 
LIV going forward, was there any particular venues that were 
often talked about that there was concern about where the LIV 
was playing or any type of money concerns from the venue 
locations?
    Mr. Dunne. You are asking me, Senator?
    Senator Marshall. Mr. Dunne, yes.
    Mr. Dunne. That never came up in any single discussion that 
I ever had with anyone, but I am not privy to every discussion. 
But there was no discussion about coveting or not desiring any 
LIV--everything was about our players, our fans, our sponsors, 
how can we get to something that will work for everybody. We 
never discussed where they play.
    Senator Marshall. Mr. Price, were there any discussions at 
your level about concern where the LIV venues were and going 
forward where these venues might be?
    Mr. Price. No, sir. Certainly nothing I was aware of. I 
agree with Jimmy in that the focus was on LIV and what they 
were doing to try to recruit our players.
    Senator Marshall. They are your players.
    Mr. Price. Yes. They are former PGA Tour members, and so 
they were our players before they left to go join LIV.
    Senator Marshall. OK. Are the contractors for you all? Do 
they work for you all?
    Mr. Price. They are independent contractors, so they do not 
have to play in all of our events, but our regulations 
stipulate that they cannot play for a competing league unless 
they get a conflicting event release. These players did not. 
These are regulations where a membership organization does 
regulations that were developed by the members themselves. They 
are free to go pay for another league. They just cannot go back 
and forth.
    Senator Marshall. OK. I will close with this, on a positive 
note, Mr. Dunne.
    Mr. Dunne. Yes, sir.
    Senator Marshall. I feel your compassion, your passion, we 
never met before, but your compassion for this game of golf. 
Tell me why. Why do you love this game? What is important to 
you about it?
    Mr. Dunne. It is a good question, Senator. You have your 
faith, your family, and your friends, and golf has made a huge 
difference in my life. My father always talked about there were 
three important things: one, get to the best college you could 
get into, two, marry the right woman, and three, get good 
enough at golf so you were not scared to death on the first 
tee. Other than health, faith, family, friends, if you do that 
it will be all right. I have made so many friends and been in 
so many situations, including today, less enjoyable, but it is 
an experience. I am a very proud American and I know it is not 
ideal, but I am pretty proud of being in front of Senators.
    The game of golf, it is hard to really dislike somebody you 
play golf with. I think golf is a global sport. We are reaching 
out to all parts of the world. I think the more people that do 
it the better chance we have for a better world.
    Senator Marshall. Thank you so much. I yield back.
    Senator Blumenthal. Thank you. Senator Hawley is 
recognized.
    Senator Hawley. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Price, I want 
to come back to the answers that you gave me regarding PGA Tour 
in China to make sure that I understand where this rests 
currently, what the current status is. Let us see if I have the 
facts right.
    In 2018, the PGA Tour announced a 20-year agreement for a 
new entity called PGA Tour China Series. This is what your 
spokesperson said about it just as recently as last year, 2022. 
Quote, ``The PGA Tour established a separate entity based in 
Beijing, China.'' Continuing, ``The PGA Tour Series China is 
owned and operated by the PGA Tour and supported by the General 
Administration of Sport of China''--that is the Chinese 
government--``and the China Golf Association.''
    Now you are telling me that this entity no longer exists?
    Mr. Price. Senator, I would have to get the facts for you 
on PGA Tour of China.
    Senator Hawley. I thought you said to me, a little bit ago 
I thought you said that you did one event in 2019, and it does 
not exist anymore.
    Mr. Price. From an event standpoint that series has not 
operated since 2019.
    Senator Hawley. Because of Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID-
19).
    Mr. Price. It has not operated because of COVID, and we 
have no plans to continue that tour.
    Senator Hawley. Because of COVID? Because as recently as 
last year you had events scheduled in China. You had to 
ultimately cancel them because of COVID. But that does not 
sound to me like you suspended your business arrangement.
    Mr. Price. I would have to check the status of the 
contract, Senator, but it is my understanding we have no----
    Senator Hawley. Now wait a minute, though. This is 
important because you told me a minute ago, when I talked about 
PGA Tour Series China, that that was not happening, that that 
was gone. But now you are telling me something different. Now 
you are telling me that, oh no, we still have the business 
arrangement--actually, you are hemming and hawing on that--but 
you are saying we have not done any events in China. Of course 
not, because of COVID restrictions, you have not been allowed 
to.
    I am trying to ascertain whether you still have this 20-
year agreement with Chinese entities to do Tour events in 
China. You had PGA Tour officials living in China in order to 
facilitate this. Do you see what I am driving at? My question 
is, does PGA Tour China, this entity that the Tour owns, based 
in Beijing, for which you signed a 20-year contract, does it 
still exist?
    Mr. Price. I can tell you two things. One is I would have 
to check the status of the contract. I do not believe it is 
currently enforced, but I would have to check that, and we will 
be happy to get you information on that.
    The second thing I can tell you is that we have not 
operated since 2019, and it is my understanding that we have no 
plans to continue that series.
    Senator Hawley. As long as COVID exists or----
    Mr. Price. Period.
    Senator Hawley. Why is that?
    Mr. Price. From a business standpoint we are not going to 
continue that series in China.
    Senator Hawley. OK. I think you can see what my concerns 
are, but just so that I am absolutely crystal clear about it 
here is my concern.
    Mr. Price. Yes, sir.
    Senator Hawley. My concerns are that the communist 
government of China has systematically attempted to use and 
influence American sports organizations, and lots of other 
entities--our media, entertainment industry, companies, lots of 
them. They are not shy about using leverage. We have used the 
term ``sportswashing'' a lot today, and I think it is 
applicable in this situation. Senator Blumenthal referenced 
earlier the brutal crackdown in Hong Kong, which I had, I guess 
I will call it the privilege, maybe it is the misfortune, of 
seeing for myself firsthand on the streets there.
    While that was going on, what was China doing? What was 
Beijing doing? They were applying maximal pressure on the NBA 
that had a lot of contracts, very lucrative, with China. The 
Chairman mentioned Daryl Morey, at the time general manager of 
the Houston Rockets, who ventured the most, frankly, anodyne 
statement in support of the people of Hong Kong. It was the 
most moderate--it was a tweet. For this he was blasted by NBA 
players, certainly by China, by owners, by his own owner. 
Ultimately, he resigned.
    It worries me when I see the PGA doing business with the 
Chinese government, subjecting its players and this association 
that you have lauded so much today, to those same pressures 
from a government that is brutal, that is repressive, and that 
is attempting to use American institutions as a megaphone for 
their own totalitarian, dystopian, and frankly, evil policies.
    When you imprison millions of people in concentration camps 
for the purpose of eradicating their religious beliefs and 
killing them--and that is what they are doing with the 
Uyghurs--you are an evil regime. When you treat your own people 
as slaves--and that is what they are doing--you are an evil 
regime. I do not want to see American institutions co-opted by 
that regime. That is where I am coming from with this. I would 
hope we would share that perspective.
    I look forward to your responses in writing as to the 
status of your business agreement. I continue to be interested 
as to why, on your Form 990, in both 2018, when this deal was 
announced, and in 2020, after your event, this was not 
disclosed. I would like to know why that is. I would like your 
assurances, your commitment, that you are not going to restart 
this series in China and that you are not going to conduct 
business operations with millions of dollars in financing from 
Chinese entities. Will you give me that commitment?
    Mr. Price. Senator, I would be happy to give you the 
information on the status of our contract in China, and I will 
certainly follow up with you with regard to the disclosures and 
the 990. As I have stated, we have no intentions of continuing 
that series, from my perspective, and I cannot commit the Tour 
for the long term. I am not in a position to do that. But there 
is nothing in the short term or immediate future, from a 
tournament standpoint, that we are considering doing in China.
    Senator Hawley. I would say finally, Mr. Chairman, that I 
think that the era in which institutions, sports leagues, 
businesses, when they say with regard to Communist China that, 
``We leave the politics to other people. We do not take any 
position on issues,'' I think that time has passed. When you 
have a government that is as oppressive and imperial as that 
government is and is doing to its people what that government 
is, and has designs to do to others around the world what that 
government wants to do, I think it is time for American 
companies, American institutions to stand up and be counted, 
and I hope that the PGA will.
    Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    Senator Blumenthal. Thank you, Senator Hawley, and that is 
exactly why we are here today. That is why we are conducting 
this investigation and why we will broaden it, as appropriate, 
to include other institutions and other repressive regimes and 
their potential impact on our institutions, whether it is 
corporations or sports organizations.
    I would just say, recently, at the Qatar World Cup, 
Federation Internationale de Football Association (FIFA) 
prohibited players from wearing armbands with rainbow flags. We 
do not know whether Qatar imposed this requirement on FIFA or 
if FIFA wanted to avoid controversy when it made its own deal 
with a repressive government, but the effect had a ban on free 
expression.
    This effort to restrict, punish, torture, imprison, kill 
people who stand up for their beliefs is a growing worldwide 
phenomenon, and I would hope that it would unite us on a 
bipartisan basis. Can you commit, Mr. Price, that the Tour 
would never agree to a similar restriction if Saudi Arabia, 
which has a particularly troubling record on Lesbian, gay, 
bisexual, transgender (LGBTQ) rights, wanted you to do it?
    Mr. Price. Senator, we believe in full access to our 
events. From a participation standpoint, from an attendance 
standpoint, we do not believe in any restrictions on that.
    Senator Blumenthal. So is the answer yes?
    You would never agree to it. You would never punish your 
players. You would reject Saudi Arabia or the Governor of the 
sovereign wealth fund if they sought to impose that 
restriction, and you would never impose it yourself?
    Mr. Price. We would never impose it, and we determine where 
our events are played, and we would not conduct tournaments 
under those rules.
    Senator Blumenthal. You would not do it in Saudi Arabia?
    Mr. Price. Not according to those rules.
    Senator Blumenthal. Let me ask you, I mentioned earlier the 
apparent side agreement involving Greg Norman. Was that ever 
executed?
    Mr. Price. No, sir.
    Senator Blumenthal. Is it your understanding that there is 
an agreement that he will no longer have his present position? 
That is in the talking points that you prepared for Mr. 
Monahan.
    Mr. Price. Yes, sir. Under the framework agreement, if we 
are able to move to a definitive agreement and it is approved, 
the LIV Golf assets, for which Greg Norman is currently the 
commissioner, will move into a new subsidiary, PGA Tour 
subsidiary, controlled by the PGA Tour, and those events will 
be managed by the PGA Tour. We have a complete infrastructure 
in place to manage events. It would make no sense to bring in 
that type of an executive to manage what is now a series of 14 
events.
    Senator Blumenthal. To be clear, he is out of a job.
    Mr. Price. If we reach a definitive agreement we would not 
have a requirement for that type of position.
    Senator Blumenthal. Our review of internal documents 
indicates that there are other understandings and agreements. 
Would you tell us about them?
    Mr. Price. I am not aware of any other understanding or 
agreements that is not reflected in the framework agreement. 
Which is still to be negotiated. Everything is to be 
negotiated.
    Senator Blumenthal. What are the other side agreements or 
informal understandings?
    Mr. Price. I am not aware of any other side agreements or 
informal understandings.
    Senator Blumenthal. Is that because you are not permitted 
to talk about them or because there are none, absolutely?
    Mr. Price. None exist, to my knowledge.
    Senator Blumenthal. OK. Let me ask you, when were you first 
informed about these negotiations that have been described by 
Mr. Dunne and the documents?
    Mr. Price. Senator, Commissioner Monahan informed me 
shortly before the London meeting that we might have an 
opportunity to engage with the Public Investment Fund to settle 
the litigation and potentially to establish a framework where 
the PGA Tour would be in a position to continue to lead 
professional golf.
    Senator Blumenthal. Were any of the other independent 
directors on the board informed about the conversations or 
negotiations?
    Mr. Price. Senator, our director, Jimmy Dunne, was 
obviously aware.
    Senator Blumenthal. I should have been clearer. Aside from 
Mr. Dunne, who was involved in the negotiations?
    Mr. Price. Our board chair, Ed Herlihy, was aware of the 
negotiations.
    Senator Blumenthal. By the way, with respect to Mr. 
Herlihy, he is the Co-Chairman of Wachtell, Lipton?
    Mr. Price. Yes.
    Senator Blumenthal. Were they involved in providing legal 
advice?
    Mr. Price. Yes.
    Senator Blumenthal. Were they representing you or advising 
you in the litigation?
    Mr. Price. Yes.
    Senator Blumenthal. Mr. Dunne, you have been involved with 
business governance for, I would say, decades. Is it common to 
keep these kinds of negotiations secret from a corporation's 
governing body? It strikes me as remarkable.
    Mr. Dunne. Senator, every negotiation, every deal has its 
own rhythm. This framework agreement settled the litigation and 
then said we are going to keep talking. We were really afraid 
that once the other side's lawyers learned anything about it, 
it would be, poof, gone.
    Senator Blumenthal. But most corporations trust their 
boards of directors. In fact, they are intimately involved. 
They are informed. One of your board has resigned because of 
this breach of common trust and practice. Would you not say 
that this is pretty unique, in your experience?
    Mr. Dunne. What I would say, Senator, was that the 
conversations, I think, were fragile, and I really felt that on 
the Saturday, I guess it was Memorial Day, I thought they were 
over, frankly. We did have a discussion earlier on where I 
mentioned to the chairman and to the commissioner, I said that 
we ought to do this, and the chairman said that that is the 
commissioner's decision, and the commissioner said, ``We will 
decide when we decide.'' My understanding is he had the 
authority to sign the agreement, which simply terminates the 
lawsuit, and then with the knowledge that everything else was 
going to have to be discussed after that.
    Now that is all I can say about that. That is all I know 
about that.
    Senator Blumenthal. But you would agree that most 
corporations, most executives, CEOs, feel a duty. In fact, I 
would argue that legally, as well as morally, they have a duty 
to keep their boards of directors informed. Why this near-
unique secrecy with your own board of directors? Simply you did 
not trust them.
    Mr. Dunne. Senator, I have been to two board meetings. I 
started in January. I was not an expert on the dynamic of the 
board, very honestly.
    Senator Blumenthal. The bed was on fire when you got into 
it.
    Mr. Dunne. No. LIV set us on fire. LIV put us in an 
incredibly difficult position. LIV was a constant, everyday, 
who is going to go. It was very disruptive.
    Senator Blumenthal. I am going to come back to LIV's 
disruptive effect when I return. Unfortunately, I am going to 
have to vote. We have a vote ongoing right now, and I 
apologize. I will have some additional questions when I come 
back. I am going to turn to the Ranking Member, and I will be 
back. We are in the middle of a vote right now. I will be back 
within a matter of a few minutes.
    Mr. Dunne. Thank you, Senator.
    Mr. Price. Thank you.
    Senator Johnson. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Before you go, 
did the board object to the fact that the lawsuit was 
dismissed? Once it was finally revealed, did anybody on the 
board say, ``Oh, this is awful. We should continue to engage in 
this legal action? ''
    Mr. Dunne. No, they did not. The reality was, in fact, Mr. 
Stephenson described it to me as like that this is just a 
litigation settlement. There is really not much to this. But he 
was not happy about not knowing about it. But you have to ask 
him.
    Senator Johnson. Again, we can emphasize again there is no 
deal.
    Mr. Dunne. There is no deal. There is no agreement. There 
is a settlement of the lawsuit, and we are talking, and we are 
trying to see if we could do something that makes sense for our 
players, sponsors, and fans. That is what we are trying to do, 
hard.
    Senator Johnson. This is not making it any easier. Let us 
be honest. This is not making your job any easier.
    Mr. Dunne. If you are addressing me, Senator, you know, Ron 
is doing the negotiation----
    Senator Johnson. Yes, Mr. Price.
    Mr. Dunne [continuing]. But being here in Washington, 
worrying about this, consumed with this, no, it is making it a 
lot harder, a lot, lot harder.
    Senator Johnson. I can say some things, but the Chairman is 
not here to hear them, but I will say them anyway. From my 
viewpoint, I do not see the PGA as doing anything wrong here, 
and unfortunately, from some of my colleagues, the line of 
their questioning implies that there is something nefarious or 
something wrong, or that you violated, for example, your duty 
to the board. Can you address that? Mr. Price, we will start 
with you.
    Mr. Price. Thank you, Senator. No, certainly from our point 
of view we faced an existential threat, as you indicated 
earlier. Our sole purpose was to preserve our existence so that 
we could continue to benefit our constituents, our players, and 
charity, and our ability to continue to lead professional golf, 
and as a result, get in to a position where LIV Golf was not 
leading professional golf and controlling golf or its 
operations.
    The negotiations were confidential, so that surprised a lot 
of people. That was unfortunate that we had to surprise people, 
but it was necessary, as Jimmy has said, or otherwise we would 
not have been able to reach an agreement.
    Senator Johnson. By the way, I fully understand that had 
the other side's lawyers gotten wind of this, again, they would 
have seen a bunch of legal fees going up in smoke, right, and 
they would have done everything possible to tank the dismissal 
of the lawsuit, because there is no deal. There is a framework, 
but the only thing definitive is you were able to get that 
legal liability off your plate. Correct?
    Mr. Dunne. That is correct, Senator.
    Senator Johnson. Now there have been an awful lot of 
questions and comments, and you have been asked to give 
different assurances in terms of what the PGA Tour will do or 
will not do. I want to give you the opportunity, while nobody 
else is here at the dais, describe what the Tour actually is, 
who your duty is to, what your duty is not. Obviously, you are 
human beings, you do not like to see repressive regimes. From a 
business standpoint you have got a way, if you involve yourself 
in a country that is doing things that maybe your fan base 
would not approve of, I mean, you have to certainly factor that 
into your decision of whether or not you hold a tournament 
somewhere or not.
    Mr. Price. Correct.
    Senator Johnson. Mr. Dunne, you talked about it, I think, 
very convincingly, that you love this game of golf, and you 
think that golf can help repair breaches, right?
    Mr. Dunne. Yes.
    Senator Johnson. Talk a little bit about the game of golf, 
being able to use globally--again, we talked about meritocracy. 
It does not make any difference what race you are. Literally, 
it does not make any difference. If you can shoot a lower score 
than anybody else, you are going to be competing at the highest 
level.
    But talk about what you think the game of golf can do for 
the world.
    Mr. Dunne. I am very jaded on this, but I have tremendous 
respect and appreciation and love for the game of golf.
    In the world prospect, and I know there has been a lot of 
discussion about 9/11 and involvement, but if you look at, even 
in Saudi Arabia, I think there are 18 million young men and 
Saudi women that are under the age of 32, and I think it would 
be good if they did not think every American hated them, 
because they had absolutely nothing to do with 9/11. I think 
that golf can be a force throughout the world.
    Now, with respect to that, Senator, we would not be 
negotiating with them, they would not have been the first pick, 
but first of all we did not need money.
    Senator Johnson. You did not choose----
    Mr. Dunne. No. We got to the table because of the situation 
at hand, which is the vulnerability to the Tour, and the Tour, 
one thing that has really come out, and it is very important, 
is the top 50 at the Tour at that moment are critical to the 
viability of the Tour and what it will be going forward. If you 
lose a number of those players, sponsors become very unhappy. 
You do not have the level of competition. We would like the 
best players playing against each other all the time. We would 
like to be able to have that product but still protect the 
interests of the Tour.
    There are so many things that we could do correctly, if we 
could have the game united, in level of competition. I think 
the competition could go up, so the level of interest could go 
up so much, and you could see situations, like it was not a 
Tour event, but in the U.S. Open. Now, a guy won that 
tournament and it was amazing how he was able to do that. It is 
just something special and unique.
    Senator Johnson. But I would say--and again, it was just 
fun watching Wyndham Clark.
    Mr. Dunne. Oh, he was awesome.
    Senator Johnson. He has to keep it all together until he 
sinks that final putt, and then you see the tension flow out of 
him. But the fact of the matter is, had it been a bunch of 
players who nobody knew their name, it might have been the U.S. 
Open, and people, I assume, had turned in, but if it had been 
another tournament you would not have had the viewership, you 
would not have had the audience, you would not have had the 
revenue, you would not have attracted the sponsors. Week in and 
week out, if that is what the PGA Tour looks like, a lesser 
tour, without the stars, that hurts everybody in the game of 
golf except for the Saudis, who have an unlimited bank account, 
that want to buy their way into the game of golf. That is the 
reality you faced.
    Mr. Dunne. Senator, I have competed in business my whole 
life, and generally there are economic principles that make 
sense that you have to apply. Within that framework you better 
get smarter, you better get tougher, you have to get more 
knowledgeable, you have to work harder, you have to do all the 
things that, frankly, have made America great.
    This situation is different. To give to charity $50 
million, it takes a lot of work to create that. It is a very 
different deal here.
    Senator Johnson. Mr. Price, let us talk about the 
progression of the game of golf. The stars of yesteryear made a 
fraction of what stars today are, right?
    Mr. Price. Correct.
    Senator Johnson. The $1.5 billion, people use that term 
like that is a lot of money, and it is, but that is revenue. 
You have expense behind that.
    Mr. Price. Correct.
    Senator Johnson. OK. Talk about how the $1.5 billion, in 
general, I mean, gross terms, how you generate the $1.5 billion 
revenue, the TV revenue, what you get from tournaments when you 
sanction the events. But tell us a little bit about what the 
revenue stream is, how difficult it is to bring in that revenue 
stream, year in and year out, how you have grown that over the 
decades, how prize money has increased, and quite honestly, how 
you had to increase dramatically the prize money to retain the 
players under the threat of LIV. That also put the Tour's 
ability to fund this stuff at risk. But kind of describe the 
business model.
    Mr. Price. Yes, sir. Thank you, Senator. Our business model 
is predicated on media revenues and sponsorship revenues, and 
that drives over 80 percent of our gross revenues. We have some 
other form of revenues--missions, hospitalities at tournaments, 
licensing revenues, our Tournament Players Clubs--but it is 
primarily predicated on media and sponsorship.
    Senator Johnson. By the way, that same media could pay for 
viewership rights for other tours, right?
    Mr. Price. Correct, yes.
    Senator Johnson. They do, to a certain extent, but not at 
the level that the PGA Tour garners.
    Mr. Price. That is correct. They are trusting us when they 
enter into those agreement that we are going to deliver an 
excellent field of players to them, and it is going to include 
our top players or a strong representation of our top players.
    We have had some loyal players. We have had a strong group 
of loyal players that have remained with us, and we are very 
proud of that. As we talked about earlier, we are going to make 
sure those players are recognized. But if LIV stays in 
existence and continues to take our top players from us, that 
will put pressure on our ability to retain those media revenues 
and those sponsorship revenues. They could decline in the 
future. That is the existential threat. If they decline, it 
declines the earnings opportunities not only for those top 
players but for all players. That is the threat that we faced, 
and that is what we are trying to work through.
    Senator Johnson. Yes, again, that is the existential threat 
the Tour still faces. Because we need to understand that. This 
threat has not gone away.
    Mr. Price. That is correct.
    Senator Johnson. Mr. Dunne, just speculate. If you are not 
able to conclude this deal--and by the way, this thing has to 
be concluded by the end of this year, correct, or else, again 
the lawsuits are not reinitiated----
    Mr. Dunne. That is correct.
    Senator Johnson [continuing]. But LIV can once again re-
engage and try and attract more and more players and continue 
to build their Tour at the expense of the PGA Tour. Talk about 
what is going through the players' minds right now.
    Mr. Dunne. Understandably the players were shocked, and the 
real problem was the initial announcement. What should have 
been said is LIV and the PGA Tour have agreed to settle their 
lawsuits, they are terminated with prejudice, so we win those 
cases, and they agree to have discussions where PIF could be an 
investor, a minority investor, in potentially an ongoing 
entity. That would have been great.
    Senator Johnson. Just real quick, though, you did not 
really have a choice whether or not you could announce this. I 
mean, the lawsuits are going to be dismissed. That was going to 
a public court filing, so you had to make an announcement. You 
have already got to acknowledge the fact that you maybe did not 
make the announcement the way you would have liked, so people 
started speculating----
    Mr. Dunne. That is right.
    Senator Johnson [continuing]. Like you had a hard deal 
here, but you do not have a hard deal.
    Mr. Dunne. We have no agreement. We have agreement to 
possibly get to an agreement. The way it was announced, which 
was really bad, OK, everybody jumped to a conclusion, maybe 
even this body, that they are selling to the Saudis. We are 
not. But we are really trying to figure out the right thing to 
do for our players and the global game of golf.
    By the way, we will try hard to get an agreement, and I am 
hopeful that we will. If we do not, we will have to accept that 
we are going to have to go back and compete, and we will have 
to do it, and we will do it.
    Senator Johnson. By the way, I have a great deal of 
interest in this, and so I have been following the news pretty 
carefully. I certainly sensed a softening, at least by some 
players, after they got over the initial shock, when they 
started realizing the situation you are in and how you are 
trying to preserve what is in their best interests, the game of 
golf.
    Mr. Dunne. They said that sunlight is the greatest 
disinfectant. When the facts come out, and, in hindsight I wish 
we had put the--and we could not because you are not allowed to 
do it--but I wish we had put the agreement out day one and 
everybody could see that there is no there, there.
    I think, Ron, you might have said at the player meeting we 
were both at a couple of weeks ago, in Connecticut, that if we 
had announced what it was, it would have been fine. But, 
everybody is to blame for that. I will take my share of blame 
for that too.
    Senator Johnson. I would not beat up on yourself too bad on 
that.
    There has been a lot made of that tentative disparagement 
clause. First of all, Mr. Dunne, you have done a lot of deals. 
That is not unusual to have an anti-disparagement clause in any 
agreement, right?
    Mr. Dunne. Senator, it is very common because it is hard to 
get an agreement with someone if you are saying bad things 
about them while you are negotiating the agreement. I 
understand the sensitivity to it, and I think it is worth 
consideration, and I applaud Senator Blumenthal for raising it 
because in this country we believe in free speech, and we do. 
This has a very short term. If we get to a deal, terrific. If 
we do not, it is gone.
    Senator Johnson. By the way, there is nothing the PGA Tour 
can do to bind players to disparagement contracts. They have 
freedom of speech. Correct? I am not even sure there is 
anything you can do to bind certain members of the board. You 
might be able to bind the organization not from issuing public 
releases. Mr. Price, what is your understanding of really what 
would be the enforceability of any disparagement clause?
    Mr. Price. We do not plan to enforce anything against our 
players for speaking their mind. They are free to speak their 
mind.
    Senator Johnson. But again, how enforceable would it be 
against any member of the board or individuals as opposed to 
the organization?
    Mr. Price. I am not an attorney, but I would think board 
members are free to speak their minds.
    Senator Johnson. OK. Mr. Chairman, I took this opportunity 
to give the representatives of the PGA here a little chance to 
once again highlight the reality of the situation, some of 
their business model, how they generate revenue, how crucial it 
is that they are able to retain the top players, and this thing 
does not splinter off to two separate tours. I thought they did 
a good job of doing that, so I appreciate the opportunity.
    Senator Blumenthal. Thanks. Thanks, Senator Johnson.
    Thinking a little bit about some of your responses on the 
way over to vote and back, first thanks to Mr. Dunne for 
understanding the concerns that I have raised. I guess my 
feeling is these are concerns about free expression. They are 
concerns about the players and about the fans, about the game 
that you so dearly love. Is it not better to have these 
concerns aired before you are locked into an agreement?
    Mr. Dunne. Senator Blumenthal, I am a grateful American 
citizen. If you ask me to come and see you, I am going to come 
and answer all your questions. Yes, whatever you say. I am 
happy to answer any questions and work the best I can to help 
the PGA Tour and help the game of golf and help what we are 
doing.
    Senator Blumenthal. It is better to know what the concerns 
of the American people are before you are straitjacketed and 
locked into an agreement that may, in fact, unfairly and even 
illegally, bind you, your players, sponsors, and others.
    Mr. Dunne. Senator Blumenthal, we appreciate everybody's 
interest and appreciate your involvement, and thank you.
    Senator Blumenthal. By the way, I cited the statement by 
Jon Rahm. I think the general feeling, and I am quoting, is 
that a lot of people feel a bit of betrayal from management. 
Have other players, Mr. Price, expressed those kinds of 
concerns to you?
    Mr. Price. Thank you, Senator. Due to the confidential 
nature of settling the litigation and signing the framework 
agreement, we surprised a lot of people, including our players. 
We have had a lot of work to do to make sure that our players 
understand what we did and why we did it. They are very 
interested in that. Our players are starting to understand why 
we did it, and they are starting to see the significant 
benefits for them and the game of golf and all of our 
constituents if we can move from the framework agreement to the 
definitive agreement. But they are still very interested in the 
terms. They want to make sure we are in control.
    Senator Blumenthal. Have you received anything in writing 
from any of the players?
    Mr. Price. I have not personally received anything.
    Senator Blumenthal. Has the PGA Tour received anything in 
writing from any of the players?
    Mr. Price. I do not see everything that goes to our other 
executives so I cannot----
    Senator Blumenthal. Are you aware of communications in 
writing from your players? We understand there have been.
    Mr. Price. There certainly could have been, yes, because 
players were surprised.
    Senator Blumenthal. Have you seen any?
    Mr. Price. I do not recall seeing any.
    Senator Blumenthal. But you have heard about any?
    Mr. Price. I have heard about a lot of discussions about 
players being surprised.
    Senator Blumenthal. Could you make them available to this 
Committee?
    Mr. Price. If there are written communications we certainly 
will make those available.
    Senator Blumenthal. Thank you. What would you say to the 
players who feel blindsided and betrayed?
    Mr. Price. Thank you, Senator. It is what we have been 
saying. We have been explaining why the negotiations had to be 
confidential and what the benefits were to entering into the 
framework agreement. A lot of players, not all, are beginning 
to understand exactly why we had to do it and how this would be 
beneficial for them and charity and all of our constituents.
    Senator Blumenthal. They are beginning to understand.
    Mr. Price. Yes, sir.
    Senator Blumenthal. All of them?
    Mr. Price. Not all. We still have some work to do. Not all 
players agree on everything. We are a big membership 
organization, and we represent a lot of different players.
    Senator Blumenthal. How many players did you notify in 
advance of reaching the agreement?
    Mr. Price. I do not believe any players were notified.
    Senator Blumenthal. None?
    Mr. Price. No, sir.
    Senator Blumenthal. Not a single player was notified, you 
are a membership organization. Your members are the players. 
You do not exist without the players, but you did not tell a 
single one of them about the negotiations, let alone what the 
result would be before you announced it publicly?
    Mr. Price. It was the settlement of litigation, which was 
binding, and then we have told the players that we would go 
through a process of making them fully involved in anything we 
do relative to the definitive agreement, which we are in the 
process of doing.
    Senator Blumenthal. Mr. Dunne, you said in an interview, I 
think it was last year, ``If someone is willing to pay 
incredibly uneconomic prices, they will be unbelievably 
disruptive.'' You said that, I believe. Correct?
    Mr. Dunne. Senator, I have the full faith that if you are 
saying it, it is right. I do not remember what it was in 
reference to, but it makes sense.
    Senator Blumenthal. It seems to me that you were, in 
effect, saying there that the Saudis were willing to pay money 
without regard to the economic profit or revenue. Correct?
    Mr. Dunne. Correct.
    Senator Blumenthal. In other words, their interest was 
public image, sportswashing, cleansing their reputation. 
Correct?
    Mr. Dunne. Senator, I cannot speak to the mind of what 
their intent was, but I know if you have a lot of something you 
tend to be a little sloppier about it.
    Senator Blumenthal. They have a lot of money.
    Mr. Dunne. They have a lot. When you have--it is like 
anything else. If you are down to your last $10, you watch it 
carefully. If you have it----
    Senator Blumenthal. That is how they can be disruptive 
because they have a lot of money, bucketsful of money. Correct? 
Because they do not have to care about the economic results. 
They are a total autocracy. They do not have to care about 
paying players. They will just do it, out of those bucketsful 
of money, and that will continue with their dominant financial 
interests, their equity ownership of the PGA Tour through this 
profit-making entity that will control, financially, whatever 
the board of directors' composition may be.
    Looking at it from the future standpoint, you are not out 
of the woods. They are going to continue to have this kind of 
bucketful of money, and they are going to continue to kind of 
wield the influence that they do. That is the word that was 
used in the official document. Whatever the good intentions and 
the rhetoric now, you still have to reach a deal.
    My hope is that you will resist those bucketsful of money. 
I think a lot of players, a lot of sponsors, a lot of 
charities, and frankly, the 9/11 families, are hoping that the 
PGA Tour will stand up and, frankly, avoid the sellout that 
this deal seems to be, because that disruptive, uneconomic 
effect is exactly what we need to resist as a Nation. If we are 
going to be selling out to countries that can throw around 
hundreds of billions of dollars, we are going to lose, not just 
financially. We are going to lose in terms of our democracy and 
freedom, and institutions like golf. Sports are central to our 
society, to our culture, to our economy, to our way of life, to 
our self-image, and our image abroad. For all the reasons that 
you have very eloquently described your love of golf, it cannot 
exist as an institution in this country if people are not 
willing to stand up for it, just like other sports and other 
institutions.
    The 9/11 families, a number of them are here today, and 
they have asked for a meeting with you. Would you commit to 
meet with them?
    Mr. Dunne. Yes.
    Senator Blumenthal. Do you have anything maybe that you 
would want to say to them now, as long as a number of them are 
here?
    Mr. Dunne. Senator, I will say now what I said on September 
12, 2001, what I said to my children growing up. Anyone 
remotely involved, anyone tangentially involved, anyone who 
profited, anyone who was involved, we should pursue them with 
extreme prejudice, to the full extent, to the complete 
capacity. And over the years I want to thank President Bush, I 
want to thank President Obama, I want to thank the magnificent 
United States military, I want to thank the Special Services 
that have executed that with prejudice. I honestly believe that 
our government, with both President Bush, President Obama, our 
military, and the brilliant, brilliant, Navy Sea, Air, and Land 
(SEALs), did their job, and anyone that is involved with that 
thing has to answer to justice.
    I go on to say that with my own children I thought it has 
been incredibly important to them to understand that because 
someone has the same skin color or the same religion as the 
people that were involved, as the criminals that were involved 
in 9/11, that does not mean that we hate them, that we are 
raised in the United States of America that has different 
values, and we look at things differently.
    When I grew up in our house we had a sign, ``No Irish Need 
Apply,'' and that was something my mother instilled in us so 
that we just had a taste of what was that like, because of 
religion or heritage you did not get something that you 
deserved. I am very proud that a friend of mine once said that, 
my second son said that he had never, ever heard me say one 
negative remark about any Middle Easterner, any Muslim 
religion, anything like that, and I am very proud of that.
    I think America stands for something different. I think if 
someone does a crime, you go after them. For this crime, it is 
death. I believe that our Special Services did their job, and I 
am grateful to them, but I refuse to describe a whole other 
people because they had common religion or skin color. I am not 
doing that, under any condition.
    Senator Blumenthal. Thank you for those remarks. I want to 
make clear that we are not here about the people of Saudi 
Arabia. We are here because the regime, an autocratic, 
repressive regime, is torturing, imprisoning, killing its own 
people because they are different and because they express 
their views, or because they are women. They have fostered the 
war in Yemen, and also there is mounting evidence, I think 
persuasive evidence, that the Saudi government was complicit in 
the 9/11 attack. The families who are here are seeking justice 
against that regime. The materials you have just been handed, 
which also went to Senator Johnson, I would suggest you have a 
look at.
    But the point is that the Senate actually has supported 
them. Senator Cornyn and I led the effort--it is called Justice 
Against Sponsors of Terrorism Act (JASTA)--to enable those 
families to go to court so that our courts would have 
jurisdiction in their quest for justice. We passed that bill, 
and then we passed it again when President Obama vetoed it. 
Senator Cornyn and I led that effort. The materials that you 
have been handed reflect a lack of cooperation from some of the 
agencies in our own government in providing information that 
those 9/11 families need seeking simple justice against Saudi 
Arabia.
    It is not the reason we are here today, but it reflects 
many of those reasons. My hope is that you will support that 
effort of the families to seek justice. I am glad that you are 
committed to meet with them, and the passion that you have 
expressed in support of our military and our other security 
services, because I think every member of the Senate shares 
those views, and it ought to bring us together.
    Senator Johnson, did you have any other comments?
    Senator Johnson. My closing comments. First of all, I do 
think this hearing has been constructive in a number of 
different ways. It has given the PGA Tour an opportunity to 
describe the rock and the hard place they were between, and 
still are in. This has a long way to go, but many Senators were 
able to express their concerns that I think the PGA Tour 
shares, so I think that was good.
    I would push back on the term ``sellout.'' PGA Tour did not 
seek this. They were put in this position. The Saudis have the 
$700 billion. If they want to be involved in golf, they will be 
involved in golf, and if this thing fails they can spend the 
money to take over golf. I think that would be tragic, and I 
think it would destroy golf because it would destroy the 
competitive spirit and the purity of the competition.
    I appreciate the difficult nature of what you did, Mr. 
Dunne, in first reaching out and starting it. I understand the 
difficult nature of your task ahead of you, Mr. Price, to 
conclude this negotiation. I really do hope that we can give 
them the time and space and the privacy, working with their 
members, now that the members are fully aware of where they are 
going, to conclude this deal. I think there is a real potential 
here.
    Again, this has been negotiated by somebody who, I guess 
other than losing a direct member of the family, losing 40 
percent of your colleagues is no small thing. You understand 
the full sensitivities. I do not think Mr. Dunne would be 
involved with people that had any involvement whatsoever, so I 
trust his judgment from that standpoint. I hope we can, I 
guess, trust these individuals to do right by their members, by 
this country, by the 9/11 families, trying to preserve the game 
of golf, competition at the highest levels, and see if we 
cannot forge some kind of win-win situation where even the 
citizens of Saudi Arabia can enjoy greater freedom, greater 
modernity, where the game of golf can be used, as I know Mr. 
Dunne believes it really can be used, to bridge divides and 
just improve the situation.
    Again, I would not have held this hearing. I was highly 
interested in attending it and listening to it. I think some 
good has come of it. I think it has been constructive, so I 
appreciate that. Let us give them the time and space to 
conclude a deal that can actually be a win-win situation for 
everybody involved.
    Senator Blumenthal. We appreciate you being here. Thank 
you, Senator Johnson. We have learned a lot, and we have also 
learned we need to learn more. We are going to continue this 
inquiry. We are going to ask that the other potential witnesses 
that we invited actually come and share their perspectives and 
information. I assume you would support that effort.
    Mr. Dunne. You are talking about Yasir and--yes, I am here.
    Senator Blumenthal. Thank you. The more we know, the more 
we can support the values and freedoms that we have espoused 
here today, and the ideals of professional golf and the PGA 
Tour, which we supported, I supported. When you asked me to 
meet in Cromwell, Connecticut. I was all in.
    Mr. Price. Yes, you were. Thank you for that.
    Senator Blumenthal. I will continue to support the PGA 
Tour. Just make no mistake--as I said before, America is on 
your side. We will support you. It should not be about the 
money, the disruption, the uneconomic offers. I recognize that 
you cannot say you are going to walk away from this deal, but I 
hope you bargain hard. We will continue this inquiry because I 
think uncovering more of the facts and shining a spotlight on 
what is really happening here is in the national interest and 
part of our obligation.
    Thank you very much.
    Mr. Price. Thank you. Thank you both.
    Senator Blumenthal. This hearing is going to be adjourned, 
and the record will remain open for 2 weeks for any written 
questions that are submitted, the responses to Senator Hawley 
and responses to other questions. Again, we are very grateful 
to you for being here.
    Mr. Price. Thank you.
    Mr. Dunne. Thank you.
    [Whereupon, at 12:56 p.m., the hearing was adjourned.]

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