[Senate Hearing 118-117]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]
S. Hrg. 118-117
PROTECTING PUBLIC HEALTH AND THE
ENVIRONMENT IN THE WAKE OF THE NORFOLK
SOUTHERN TRAIN DERAILMENT AND CHEMICAL
RELEASE IN EAST PALESTINE, OHIO
=======================================================================
HEARING
BEFORE THE
COMMITTEE ON
ENVIRONMENT AND PUBLIC WORKS
UNITED STATES SENATE
ONE HUNDRED EIGHTEENTH CONGRESS
FIRST SESSION
----------
MARCH 9, 2023
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Printed for the use of the Committee on Environment and Public Works
[GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Available via the World Wide Web: http://www.govinfo.gov
__________
U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE
53-528 WASHINGTON : 2025
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COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENT AND PUBLIC WORKS
ONE HUNDRED EIGHTEENTH CONGRESS
FIRST SESSION
THOMAS R. CARPER, Delaware, Chairman
SHELLEY MOORE CAPITO, West Virginia, Ranking Member
BENJAMIN L. CARDIN, Maryland KEVIN CRAMER, North Dakota
BERNARD SANDERS, Vermont CYNTHIA M. LUMMIS, Wyoming
SHELDON WHITEHOUSE, Rhode Island MARKWAYNE MULLIN, Oklahoma
JEFF MERKLEY, Oregon PETE RICKETTS, Nebraska
EDWARD J. MARKEY, Massachusetts JOHN BOOZMAN, Arkansas
DEBBIE STABENOW, Michigan ROGER WICKER, Mississippi
MARK KELLY, Arizona DAN SULLIVAN, Alaska
ALEX PADILLA, California LINDSEY O. GRAHAM, South Carolina
JOHN FETTERMAN, Pennsylvania
Courtney Taylor, Democratic Staff Director
Adam Tomlinson, Republican Staff Director
C O N T E N T S
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Page
MARCH 9, 2023
OPENING STATEMENTS
Carper, Hon. Thomas R., U.S. Senator from the State of Delaware.. 1
Capito, Hon. Shelly More, U.S. Senator from the State of West
Virginia....................................................... 3
Merkley, Hon. Jeff, U.S. Senator from the State of Oregon........ 5
Mullin, Hon. Markwayne, U.S. Senator from the State of Oklahoma.. 6
Casey, Hon. Bob, U.S. Senator from the State of Pennsylvania..... 8
Prepared statement........................................... 10
Brown, Hon. Sherrod, U.S. Senator from the State of Ohio......... 18
Vance, Hon. James David (JD), U.S. Senator from the State of
Pennsylvania................................................... 20
Prepared statement........................................... 23
WITNESSES
Shaw, Alan, President and CEO, Norfolk Southern Corporation...... 27
Prepared statement........................................... 29
Responses to additional questions from:
Senator Carper........................................... 35
Senator Sanders.......................................... 50
Senator Whitehouse....................................... 55
Senator Merkley.......................................... 56
Senator Fetterman........................................ 57
Senator Capito........................................... 58
Shore, Debra, Regional Administrator, U.S. Environmental
Protection Agency, Region V.................................... 64
Prepared statement........................................... 66
Responses to additional questions from:
Senator Carper........................................... 70
Senator Fetterman........................................ 92
Senator Capito........................................... 94
Vogel, Anne, Director, Ohio Environmental Protection Agency...... 106
Prepared statement........................................... 108
Responses to additional questions from:
Senator Carper........................................... 111
Senator Capito........................................... 119
Harrison, Richard, Executive Director and Chief Engineer, Ohio
River Valley Water Sanitation Commission....................... 123
Prepared statement........................................... 126
Responses to additional questions from Senator Carper........ 191
Brewer, Eric, Director and Chief of Hazardous Materials Response,
Beaver County Department of Emergency Services................. 197
Prepared statement........................................... 200
Responses to additional questions............................ 208
ADDITIONAL MATERIAL
Article:
United States Environmental Protection Agency, Previous Daily
Updates: East Palestine, Ohio Train Derailment Emergency
Response................................................... 226
USDOT Response to East Palestine Derailment: USDOT Sees
Significant Moves Toward Stronger Rail Safety Standards and
Accountability............................................. 248
Secretary Buttigieg, Norfolk Southern on notice for needed
safety reforms............................................. 251
Letter to Senator Brown and Senator Vance: EPA's proposed rule to
strengthen hazardous materials management and accident
prevention under the Risk Management program................... 254
Article:
Rebecca Fuocco, David Rosner and Gerald Markowitz, LA Times,
Ohio Train Detrailment Reminder of Plastic Dangers......... 257
Rebecca Fouco, David Rosner, Gerald Markowitz, New York Times
Guest Essay, This Deadly Chemical Should Be Banned......... 259
Chase Woodruff, Colorado Newsline, Oil companies rely on
controversial firm to rebut Colorado health study.......... 261
David Dayen, The American Prospect, Inc., The Checkered Past
of the Contractor Monitoring the Air in East Palestine..... 265
Megan Myers, Texas A&M University, Carnegie Mellon
Researchers Confirm EPA's Finding On Air Quality In East
Palestine.................................................. 273
EPA Orders Norfolk Southern to Conduct All Cleanup Actions
Associated with the East Palestine Train Derailment........ 276
EPA Requires Norfolk Southern to Sample for Dioxins in East
Palestine.................................................. 282
Open NTSB Recommendations--Freight Rail Safety................... 288
Statement: River Valley Organizing............................... 294
Letter from:
Governor Josh Shapiro........................................ 318
Senators and Members of Congress to support the Commonwealth
of Massachusetts' request for Major Disaster Declaration... 321
Statement: The American Association for Laboratory Accreditation
(A2LA)......................................................... 324
Testimony: Ian Jefferies, President and Chief Executive Officer
Association of American Railroads.............................. 325
Letter from:
Alexandria Leslie of Enon Valley, Pennsylvania............... 333
Charles and Rhonda Dean of Enon Valley, Pennsylvania......... 336
Stuart Day of New Galilee, Pennsylvania...................... 337
Eric and Inda Akenhead, business owners in East Palestine,
Ohio....................................................... 341
Hillary Flint of Enon Valley Pennsylvania.................... 342
Testimony from:
Jill Hunkler of Belmont County, Ohio......................... 343
Joe Kozlina of New Galilee, Pennsylvania..................... 345
Letter from:
Sherrod Brown and JD Vance to Ms. Anne Vogel................. 347
Andrew Whelton, Purdue University............................ 349
3U.S. Senators Brown, Vance, Casey, Fetterman regarding the
Norfolk Southern train derailment.............................. 351
Testimony: Logan Rance, M.S. Environmental Science............... 354
Letter: East Palestine Fire Department........................... 374
Statement from:
John Fetterman, Pennsylvania................................. 376
An anonymous Beaver County member............................ 378
Testimony from:
Christine M. Zimmer.......................................... 379
Daren Gamble of East Palestine............................... 380
Eric Cozza of East Palestine................................. 381
Jami Cozza of East Palestine................................. 382
Russell Murphy of East Palestine............................. 383
Summer Magness of East Palestine............................. 385
PROTECTING PUBLIC HEALTH AND THE ENVIRONMENT IN THE WAKE OF THE NORFOLK
SOUTHERN TRAIN DERAILMENT AND CHEMICAL RELEASE IN EAST PALESTINE, OHIO
----------
THURSDAY, MARCH 9, 2023
U.S. Senate,
Committee on Environment and Public Works,
Washington, DC.
The committee met, pursuant to notice, at 10:04 a.m. in
room 406, Dirksen Senate Office Building, Hon. Thomas R. Carper
(chairman of the committee) presiding.
Present: Senators Carper, Capito, Cardin, Sanders,
Whitehouse, Merkley, Markey, Stabenow, Kelly, Padilla, Boozman,
Sullivan, Graham, Mullin, Ricketts.
OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. THOMAS R. CARPER,
U.S. SENATOR FROM THE STATE OF DELAWARE
Senator Carper. Well, good morning, everyone. Thank you all
for joining us today for this important hearing. Ranking Member
Capito and I thank all of our witnesses for joining us today as
well, including our witnesses and colleagues from Ohio and
Pennsylvania. We look forward to the testimony of each one of
you.
As we know, last month, news broke out about an
environmental disaster caused by a Norfolk Southern train
derailment near East Palestine, Ohio, less than a mile from the
Pennsylvania border. We are here today to discuss that train
derailment and subsequent hazardous chemical release, which led
to a controlled burn of dangerous chemicals and the mandatory
evacuation of some 2,000 people. This tragic incident is a
reminder of the importance of following the Golden Rule and
treating other people the way we would like to be treated if we
were in their shoes.
Today's hearing is an opportunity to put ourselves in the
shoes of those impacted by this disaster, examine the immediate
response, and ensure long-term accountability for the cleanup
efforts. It is our responsibility in Congress to answer one,
what went wrong, two, what do we need to do to fix it, and what
do we need to do to make sure it never happens again.
Every so often, an environmental disaster in our Country
underscores our responsibility to protect public health and our
environment. In 1969, I recall seeing news coverage of a train
spark that ignited the polluted Cuyahoga River near Cleveland,
Ohio, just north of Ohio State, where I was a Navy ROTC
midshipman a year earlier.
As our Nation watched a river engulfed in flames, it served
as a wake-up call to better protect communities from hazardous
substances and to take responsibility for cleaning up
environmental disasters. This movement helped lead to the
creation of the Environmental Protection Agency, which had
broad bipartisan support.
My hope is that in the aftermath of the disaster in East
Palestine, we can come together once again to identify
solutions that will protect communities, improve safety, and
restore trust.
We must work together with our colleagues on other relevant
House and Senate committees to strengthen our Nation's rail
safety regulations, ensure compliance with them and prevent
future incidents like this one from happening again.
We also need to make sure that the impacted communities
receive the resources and the support that they need. Our
existing laws have allowed EPA to identify Norfolk Southern as
a responsible party and begin to hold the corporation
responsible for the costs of the emergency response, as well as
for the long-term remediation of this area. We want to hear
from our witnesses today whether Norfolk Southern is meeting
its obligations, including its moral obligations.
In addition, we should note that responding to this
disaster is a shared responsibility between different levels of
government and Norfolk Southern. It is imperative for us to
ensure that the agencies tasked with responding to disasters
like this have the necessary resources that they need to ensure
the safety of the air that people breathe, the water they
drink, and the soil they use on which to grow crops.
It is worth nothing that the Biden Administration has been
on the ground from day one. As we will hear today, the EPA,
working alongside State and local partners, arrived in East
Palestine within hours after the derailment and has maintained
a presence ever since. In fact, Administrator Regan has visited
the area, I am told, some three times already and expects to go
back for more.
In the wake of the chemical release, these government
entities have worked tirelessly to install air and groundwater
monitoring systems, as well as sample the water and the air for
toxics and oversee the removal on contaminated soil.
Norfolk Southern appears to have cooperated with these
orders and has agreed to pay for the environmental cleanup
resulting from the derailment. However, the ultimate costs may
exceed the immediate cleanup needs. Moreover, an apparent lack
of transparency on the part of Norfolk Southern, at least in
the early days of the response, has left some members of the
community battling with mistrust and looking for answers.
We are told that the company's failure to communicate
directly includes information given to some first responders,
who were under the impressions that only one car would be
vented and burned, rather than five. This miscommunication left
first responders scrambling to ensure the public safety
requirements of a much, much larger plume.
We have also heard from some residents who were told it was
safe to return to their homes, but are still experiencing
ongoing health problems. Other concerns remain, such as loss of
property values and the long-term impacts on our most
vulnerable citizens, including children and the elderly.
As I said earlier, today presents us with the opportunity
to learn from this experience, address misinformation, and gain
a better understanding of the long-term plan to protect public
health and address the environmental impacts of this disaster.
Just as we witnessed an earlier environmental disaster in
Ohio 54 years ago that I have alluded to, a new generation of
Americans is now waiting to see how their government responds
today and in the days to come. This incident may well prove to
be a defining moment in their lives as it was in my own.
Let's do what is right, not only for the people of East
Palestine, but for everyone who believes that those who
transport potentially dangerous chemicals must take the
necessary steps to protect our people and our one and only
planet.
With that, let my turn over the rest of the opening
statements here to my Ranking Member and my partner in so many
ways, Senator Capito.
OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. SHELLEY MOORE CAPITO,
U.S. SENATOR FROM THE STATE OF WEST VIRGINIA
Senator Capito. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank
all of you for being here today. I am really pleased that we
have the hearing and we have our fellow Senators here with us
as well.
As you said, we are going to discuss the ongoing
environmental response to a large-scale chemical spill
resulting from a Norfolk-Southern train derailment in East
Palestine, Ohio, which is 14 miles north of the West Virginia
border.
Before we go any further, I would like to take this
opportunity to thank the emergency responders who were on the
scene less than an hour after the incident was reported and are
continuing today to work diligently on our cleanup efforts.
Thank you all so much. These kinds of accidents are some of the
toughest days for them because these men and women, these are
their neighbors, in some cases, their relatives, and certainly
their hometown friends.
It weighs on all of us here. This catastrophe upended the
lives of thousands of our constituents in States represented
today. The residents of East Palestine and other impacted
communities, including those in West Virginia, deserve the
chance to hear publicly from those involved in and affected by
the cleanup efforts. They need to know what progress has been
made, the challenges that lay ahead, and what lessons can be
learned to improve future responses.
From day one, responders across all levels of government,
as well as the private sector, have worked around the clock on
monitoring and mitigation to keep the public and environment
safe. I appreciate EPA and other relevant organizations for
providing regular updates to Congress on the status of the
response. However, I want to convey to all of you that the
public deserved a better level of transparency and much, much
sooner.
A month after the accident, it is clear to me that EPA's
risk communication strategy fell short. In the immediate
aftermath of the incident, impacted communities were clamoring
for answers. While we are well aware that monitoring efforts
and response planning need to be sound, we need to understand
why it took so long for the EPA to get accurate data to the
public.
This is especially true when organizations like the Ohio
EPA and the Ohio River Valley Sanitation Commission, better
known as ORSANCO, both represented on our panel today, managed
to provide data and safety information to the public quicker.
They were distributing EPA data faster than the agency itself
was willing to, not only with the public, but also during
briefings and conversations with the affected congressional
offices.
In the absence of adequate transparency to the public, that
just opens up a gap for social media, armchair citizen
scientists, and political pundits on both sides to fuel false
narratives that have further undermined that public confidence
in the response to the derailment.
With each week passing, the confusion seemed to grow. Even
after weeks of repeated air, soil, and water monitoring have
shown levels of the implicated contaminants of magnitude well
below the ATSDR and EPA levels of concern in the air and water,
the initial delays in messaging and response has meant that the
residents still do not trust these results enough to feel safe,
and trust is essential in these situations.
That has been made worse, I think, by a lot of the
misinformation that we have seen. You can not address fear and
mistrust by pointing residents to an EPA website filled with
fact sheets and press releases. Risk communication needs to be
done in a clear but compassionate, relatable manner right down
there where it is happening.
Why did it take weeks for the EPA Administrator to drink
the water he repeatedly told residents was safe? Why did it
take almost a month to establish a response center and go door-
to-door to address East Palestine families' concerns?
As a result of early missteps, I believe that we need to
keep moving forward here. This committee must get to the bottom
of whether EPA has some of the authorities for some of the
actions that it has taken on the removal and whether they are
serving the best interests of our constituents.
How will EPA approving every shovelful of dirt that is
moved benefit safety or expedite the process? These are the
questions I am going to have. How and why is EPA prohibiting
contaminated soil and water from leaving the State of Ohio into
qualified destruction facilities, how is that going to improve
outcomes?
I am concerned that at least one of the Ohio facilities EPA
is now activating for this purpose has a history of Clean Air
Act violations and may not be able to sufficiently destroy
contaminated soils in a way that ensures communities may not be
further impacted by emissions resulting from incomplete
incineration.
The EPA has been slow to respond to some of our office's
inquiries on the use of PFAS-based firefighting foams in
combating the fire, nor explaining how residues from those
foams may be responsible for some of the purported pollution
that has made the rounds.
The EPA could have also made abundantly clear that Norfolk
Southern would be completely liable and that no expense would
be spared in the cleanup efforts. That is required by the law.
Instead, it took weeks for the average Americannot well-versed
in the nuances of CERCLA, which is the act that covers this, to
receive that assurance.
Mr. Shaw from Norfolk Southern will be on our panel, and I
look forward to hearing from you on what Norfolk Southern is
doing to make things right. As you know and as you have stated
in your statement, your company will pay for the harm that it
has caused, and is paying. It will pay for the initial cleanup
and likely pay again when the lawsuits from the myriad harms
caused begin to come in, though how much will be a matter for
the courts.
Culpability in this incident and the liabilities that will
result are clearly defined in the statute known as CERCLA, and
the liabilities for Norfolk Southern under CERCLA are among the
broadest and strictest in any Federal law.
Before Congress considers any changes to existing laws, we
must better understand what has gone wrong with this response
to far and what can be done better in the future, but also what
went right. To the residents of East Palestine and surrounding
communities, your Congress hears you. Every American deserves
to feel safe in their home and confident that the water that
they drink and the air that they breathe is safe.
When something like this happens, God forbid, they should
also be able to trust that the Federal Government will be
quick, deliberate, transparent, and clear in their response,
and that guilty parties will be held responsible.
I believe the environmental laws on the book are up to the
task. What has gone wrong, what has gone right? That is what we
are here to talk about today.
Thank you.
Senator Carper. Thank you, very much.
Let me now recognize Senator Jeff Merkley. Jeff is the
chairman of the Subcommittee on Chemical Safety, Waste
Management, Environmental Justice, and Regulatory Oversight. We
will recognize him for his statement.
Jeff, you are recognized.
OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. JEFF MERKLEY,
U.S. SENATOR FROM THE STATE OF OREGON
Senator Merkley. Thank you very much, Chairman Carper and
Ranking Member Capito for today's hearing.
As Chair of the Chemical Safety Subcommittee, it is
absolutely critical we examine the impacts to public health and
well-being of the people of East Palestine following this
disastrous derailment of a Norfolk Southern freight train that
was carrying tons of toxic and hazardous materials, and
certainly the impact coming from the plumes of smoke that
burned for over 2 days.
This tragedy demands accountability, because future
derailments will happen. Unless we learn the lessons of this
incident, there will undoubtedly be more derailments,
derailments with devastating impacts on additional communities.
For years, my office has been hearing from Oregonians who
are terrified about the risks of trains rolling down the tracks
in the middle of their towns full of toxic chemicals. They
remember when a Union Pacific train derailed in Mosier, Oregon,
in June 2016, spilling some 42,000 gallons of crude oil in
front of a school. A massive fire, damage to the water and
sewer systems, and the debris made their way into the Columbia
River. They remember the billowing tower of toxic black smoke
that could be seen for miles and miles up and down the Columbia
Gorge, in an area blanketed in toxic ash.
At that time, Senator Wyden and I pushed for huge
improvements in track maintenance, improvements in the brakes,
improvements in the tank cars, improvements in the
prepositioning of supplies to respond to disasters, and
improvements in communications. The progress was very limited.
Since 2015, there have been 100 derailments of trains
carrying hazardous materials, one per month. In this coming
year, there will probably be another 12 at this pace. As of
2017, around a million tons of hazardous materials is
transported by rail every day, and that was the last year the
numbers were released. I suspect they are even higher today,
because we have growing supplies of toxic chemicals,
particularly related to the plastics industry.
We know the danger posed by these chemicals. We know that
when they are going down the rails there is the possibility of
a disaster. There is so much that can be done to limit the odds
of disasters happening. That is our responsibility.
We need to recognize that when a derailment occurs and
toxic chemicals like vinyl chloride are leaked, people are
aware that these chemicals cause lymphoma and leukemia and
cancers. They are absolutely, legitimately, extremely
concerned, and residents of East Palestine are complaining
about all sorts of health issues.
Let's have this hearing today be an opportunity for us to
examine not just the response, but how to prevent these
derailments in the future, and the types of investments that
are required so that future communities are not terrorized by
these derailments that are happening at a pace of once per
month.
Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman, Ranking Member Capito,
for the opportunity to share those comments.
Senator Carper. Senator Merkley, thank you so much.
Now, I am going to recognize Senator Mullin, the
Subcommittee Ranking Member for his statement. Senator Mullin,
you may begin.
OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. MARKWAYNE MULLIN,
U.S. SENATOR FROM THE STATE OF OKLAHOMA
Senator Mullin. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I want to start
off by thanking everyone, including our five panelists, and
Senator Brown, Senator Vance, and Senator Casey for attending
this hearing.
The people of East Palestine have shown perseverance and
bravery during a time that, understandably, they are very
anxious and upset about. In the aftermath of the derailment,
the decision was made to burn hazardous chemicals leaking from
railcars out of fear of explosion. Since then, residents have
reported headaches, coughing, fatigue, irritation, pain, and
burning sensations on their skin. The people of East Palestine
now fear for their health, despite the EPA claiming that
everything is Okay.
The public's trust in the government is near record lows.
Only 20 percent say that they trust the government to do the
right thing. After the last 3 years, there is no wonder that
the residents are calling into question about the response and
advice the government bureaucrats are giving. The mixed
messaging from the Administration in the days and weeks after
the tragedy has only added fuel to the fire. Actions have
consequences.
Both the Secretary of Transportation and the Administrator
of the EPA delayed their visit to East Palestine and says that
when they got there, hey, it wasn't our problem. It was the
previous Administration and their deregulation that caused
this. It is time for everyone to take responsibility.
In contrast, I applaud the timely on-ground response
efforts from the local residents and the first responders. The
people of Ohio have truly come together to help neighbors in a
time of need. In Oklahoma, we call that the Oklahoma standard.
Moving forward, today's hearing allows us and allows
witnesses to provide much-needed clarity and assurance to the
public. We need to know how to prevent tragedies like this from
happening again. We need to know what caused it.
There are serious questions that need to be addressed, such
as the States that toxic waste is being shipped to, how long
the chemicals are sitting in the cars, if the bearings were
appropriately re-inspected, why where all five cars burned
instead of just the one, why the Administration and Norfolk
failed to provide accurate and timely information to local
authorities, and finally, what are we going to do about the
town moving forward?
The residents, understandably, do not feel safe, and we
need a plan to put their lives back together. I expect our
witnesses to transparently discuss these issues so we can
prevent accidents like this from occurring in the future.
Leaders take responsibility. They do not point fingers and
dodge responsibilities. The people of East Palestine need to
see the Administration and Norfolk take responsibility and show
results.
I yield back.
Senator Carper. Thanks very much for that comment.
Before we turn to our colleagues who have joined us for
today, I want to just ask unanimous consent, if I could, to
submit for the record a statement on behalf of our EPW
colleague Senator John Fetterman of Pennsylvania, who cannot be
with us here today.
For my colleagues, I would just like to quote a couple of
lines from Senator Fetterman's testimony. Here is what he says:
``I am working with my colleagues across both State and party
lines to fight for the forgotten people of Pennsylvania and
Ohio, hold Norfolk Southern responsible for the damage that
they have caused, and prevent similar disasters from happening
in the future. I would specifically like to thank my colleagues
from Ohio, Senator Sherrod Brown and Senator J.D. Vance for
being great partners with Senator Bob Casey and myself
throughout this process.''
Senator Fetterman later states in his testimony, ``my hope
is that we answer this disaster caused by egregious negligence
from Norfolk Southern with real policy solutions that will hold
Norfolk Southern and other similar companies accountable while
making American families safer in the future. I believe that
the legislation introduced last week is a great step, and I
look forward to getting some answers today to continue to work
with my colleagues to get Pennsylvanians and Ohioans alike the
resources that they need.'' That is his statement. We thank him
for it.
Senator Carper. We now turn to our colleagues who have
joined us here today. First, I want to recognize Senator Bob
Casey. Senator Casey from Pennsylvania, you are welcome to
proceed when you are ready. Please proceed.
OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. BOB CASEY,
U.S. SENATOR FROM THE STATE OF PENNSYLVANIA
Senator Casey. Thank you, Chairman Carper, Ranking Member
Capito, and members of the committee for holding today's
hearing. I am grateful to provide some testimony.
I am also grateful that I am running ahead of both of my
colleagues, Senator Brown and Senator Vance, because of my
chairmanship of the Aging Committee, which is starting a
hearing rather soon, so I appreciate their indulgence.
I do want to thank both Senator Brown and Senator Vance and
Senator Fetterman for working with us and others on this.
Representative Deluzio of Pennsylvania as well, has worked on
this in the House, I know, with others.
I wanted to start from the Pennsylvania side of this,
Darlington Township, Pennsylvania in Beaver County, right on
the Ohio border. As many of you know, the derailment occurred
just literally feet away from the Pennsylvania border. I know
you will hear today from Eric Brewer, who is the Director of
Emergency Services and Chief of Hazardous Materials Response
from Beaver County, and I am grateful for his testimony.
I will just quote maybe three people. That is all I will do
in the interest of brevity. The first is Police Officer Dan
Frederick, about his experiences on the ground that night. I am
quoting him. ``As a first responder, particularly as a police
officer, we all know and understand the risks that come with
our line of work. However, we usually know, or have an idea of,
when something or someone can kill us. When I left my two boys
and wife to respond to the hot zone, I was expecting to be
informed of exactly what was on that train and the potential
health hazards. To say I was scared the night of the derailment
is an understatement.''
I have also heard from residents about their fear of long-
term health impacts and the safety of their families and
communities moving forward. Jenny Santana of Darlington
Township said, ``I want to know it is safe to stay here. All of
these people deserve honest answers, and nobody is getting
them. If it were your children's lives in questions, how far
away would be safe? Please hold them accountable and make them
help us.''
Farmers in the region, I have heard and I know my
colleagues have heard the same, are concerned as well. They
want help from the Department of Agriculture. They want
certainty that their crops and their livestock are safe and
free from contamination and that the food supply and their
livelihoods are safe.
Farmer and Darlington Township Chair Mike Carreon, said
``We, along with countless other local agricultural producers,
have years invested in telling our stories and developing
relationships with our customers. The story of working in
harmony with nature to produce a superior product, this story
was ripped to pieces on the day of the derailment. It is now
our responsibility to do damage control for Norfolk Southern's
negligence while absorbing revenue loss of canceled orders. The
economics of our industry is very emotionally driven. Emotions
are now being driven by perception and lack of information. We
need testing. We need factual information. We needed this
yesterday, and we are still not seeing that response.''
These residents are scared, particularly about the
potential exposure that could lead to health impacts for
themselves and their families for years. We do have a response,
at least, for the future. We have a lot of work to do in the
near-term, but the future has to be about passing the Railway
Safety Act that Senator Brown, Senator Vance, Senator Fetterman
and I and others are leading. It is bipartisan. That never
happens around here on big bills, or rarely, I should say.
It would be a good start by Norfolk Southern to tell us
today in addition to what they are going to do for the people
of Ohio and Pennsylvania, tell us today that they support the
bill. That would help, if a major rail company said, we support
these reforms and will help you pass this bill. That is what I
think the people of both States deserve.
Mr. Chairman, thank you for this time. I am grateful to be
first in line. Thanks very much.
[The prepared statement of Senator Casey follows:]
[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Senator Carper. Thank you very, very much, Senator Casey.
Next, we are going to hear from Senator Sherrod Brown from
Ohio. Senator Brown.
OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. SHERROD BROWN,
U.S. SENATOR FROM THE STATE OF OHIO
Senator Brown. Mr. Chairman, thank you and Ranking Member
Capito, thank you and Senator Merkley and Senator Mullin, thank
you all for your thoughtful reflections and comments.
I want to recognize Ohioans this morning: Anne Vogel with
the Ohio EPA, who has been onsite many times, including, I
believe, every time I have been there, and the residents of
East Palestine who made the trip, the mothers who talked about
what this means to their family. They represent Ohioans in this
tightknit town in Columbiana County, which once made 80 percent
of the ceramics in this Country, tableware. They produced 80
percent for the whole Country in this community. They have seen
their jobs move overseas, where companies pay workers less.
That has been the story of far too many places in our States.
It is the kind of community that is so often forgotten or
exploited by corporate America. Now, these Ohioans are worried
about whether their water is safe to drink, the air is safe to
breathe, whether their kids will get sick, whether their crops
are contaminated, whether they will still be able to do
business and attract investment to the community.
Like Senator Vance, in my visits to East Palestine, I have
talked with residents, Mayor Conaway, Fire Chief Drabick,
business owners, parents. I have heard their fears for what
this means for their town and fears for the future.
All because a big corporation, Norfolk Southern, chose to
invest much of its massive profits in making its executives and
shareholders wealthy at the expense of Ohio communities along
its rail tracks, like East Palestine, Steubenville, Sandusky,
and just a week ago, Springfield.
The company followed the Wall Street business model: boost
profits by cutting costs at all costs, the consequences for
places like East Palestine be damned. In 10 years, Norfolk
Southern eliminated 38 percent of its work force. Think of
that, in a decade, they cut more than a third of their jobs. We
have seen what the company did with their massive profits.
Norfolk Southern spent $3.4 billion on stock buybacks last
year and are planning to do even more this year. That is money
that could have gone to hiring inspectors, to putting more
hotbox detectors along its rail lines, having more workers
available to repair cars and repair tracks.
Norfolk Southern's profits have gone up and up and up, and
look what happened. The NTSB is conducting a special
investigation into Norfolk Southern and its culture,
investigating five significant accidents since December 2021,
including three accidents that resulted in the death of a
Norfolk Southern employee.
If Norfolk Southern had paid a little more attention to
safety and a little less attention to its profits, had cared a
little more about the Ohioans along its tracks and a little
less about its executives and shareholders, these accidents
would not have been as bad or maybe not happened at all.
Just this week in Cleveland, a Norfolk Southern conductor
and BLET union member was killed on the job. Louis Shuster was
the proud father of a 16-year-old son.
It is Norfolk Southern's responsibility to keep its workers
safe on the job, but this company has failed to do its job,
over and over and over.
When I talk with Ohioans about what they want to see from
this company in response to the disaster in East Palestine, I
hear two things. First ,Norfolk Southern must pay the money for
every cent of the cleanup, as you have all said. Every water
test, every hotel room, every bottle of water, every hospital
bill if an Ohioan comes down sick because of the contaminants
next week, next year, for the next several years. We know this
company can afford it.
My colleague, Senator Vance, and I and our Ohio delegation,
members of both parties, have come together to make these
demands of Norfolk Southern. Today, Ohioans expect to hear a
firm commitment from this company's CEO that it will pay
whatever it costs for as long as it takes to make this
community whole.
Second, Ohioans want assurances, as I think you all do,
that this will not happen again. They have every right to be
scared. On Saturday evening, just a month after the company's
disaster in East Palestine, another Norfolk Southern train
derailed in Springfield, Ohio. This time, the cars that
derailed weren't carrying hazardous chemicals, but other cars
on that 200-plus car train were. The only thing that saved
Ohioans from another disaster was luck, but we need more than
that.
This is why Senator Vance and I have come together to
introduce our bipartisan Railway Safety Act to make trains
safer as they go through community after community. It should
not take a train derailment for elected officials to put
partisanship aside and work together for the people whom we
serve, not corporations like Norfolk Southern. Lobbyists for
the rail companies have spent years fighting every effort to
strengthen rules to make our trains and our rail lines safer.
Now Ohioans are paying the price.
If this company is serious in its commitment to preventing
more East Palestines in Ohio and across the Country, I hope
today that Mr. Shaw, as Senator Casey said so emphatically, I
hope today Mr. Shaw will endorse our commonsense, bipartisan
plan.
Senator Vance and I come from different parties, different
philosophies, but on this, we have come together for the people
of our State. I appreciate his work on this. The response to
this crisis has been far too partisan. As Senator Mullin said,
today is an opportunity to change that.
Senator Vance and I are listening to the same Ohioans in
this community, we both made numerous trips there, people who
feel like they have no way to stand up to a company like
Norfolk Southern and are worried about what will happen when
the cameras pack up and leave that Columbiana County community.
These communities have been abandoned too many times
before. My job, our job, is to hear their voice and to demand
corporate accountability to bring this town back to the vibrant
community we know that it can be again.
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Senator Carper. Thank you, Senator Brown.
Last, we want to recognize Senator J.D. Vance. Senator
Vance, you may begin. Thank you.
OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. JAMES DAVID VANCE,
U.S. SENATOR FROM THE STATE OF OHIO
Senator Vance. Great, thank you.
I want to start by acknowledging the people of East
Palestine and at the Ohio EPA, who has done a great job on this
tragedy and just say that I think that our leadership, our
media, and our politicians were slow to respond to this crisis
in part because a certain segment of our leadership feels like
the people of East Palestine are a little out of style. They
have the wrong politics, they are a little too rural, maybe a
little too white.
I want to thank Senator Capito and Senator Carper, the
Chairman and Ranking Member, and all of you for paying
attention to this, for caring about this issue, and for showing
leadership on it. I think the most important message to the
people of East Palestine is that we will not forget about them
in the months and the years to come. I think this committee
hearing reinforces that message. It is very personally
meaningful for me to be here.
I want to also talk about something that hasn't gotten
enough attention, but I think is an important part of what is
going on on the ground right now in East Palestine, which is
the cleanup of the toxic chemicals that are in the ground, and
they are still in the ground.
Two weeks ago, I would have told you, and I said very
publicly that I was frustrated with Norfolk Southern from Alan
Shaw on down for the refusal to dig up the railroad tracks and
dig out the toxic chemicals, which is their responsibility to
do. I am happy to report that it appears that Norfolk Southern
has finally started to do the cleanup in earnest, but now the
EPA is making it harder to get the materials out of Ohio in the
first place into properly licensed facilities.
Right now, as we speak, there are piles of dirt
accumulating in East Palestine, piles of dirt filled with toxic
chemicals that have not been moved out of the State in a week.
What happens if it rains? What happens if the very toxic dirt
that we just dug out of the ground begins to seep back into the
ground, causing problems for the air and water for the
residents of East Palestine?
We need leadership. We need the EPA to get on the ground
and aggressively get this stuff out of East Palestine into
properly licensed facilities. It is maybe the most important
and most pressing thing that is confronting the community of
East Palestine today. Again, I thank Anne for her leadership on
that particular issue.
After the cleanup, we are focused on the cleanup now,
justifiably so, but after the cleanup, we need to turn to how
to prevent this from happening, or at least how to make it less
likely. I am a realist. I recognize that you are always going
to have accidents, but I think that we can make them less
likely, and I think, importantly, we can give our first
responders proper notice when they are responding to these
derailments when they happen. It is ridiculous that fire
fighters and local officials do not know that hazardous
chemicals are in their community, coming through their
community.
In East Palestine, you had a community of largely volunteer
fire fighters responding to a terrible crisis, toxic, burning
chemicals, without knowing what was on them. It is one of the
things in that legislation that Senator Brown, Senator Casey,
and Senator Fetterman and I have worked on together, and I
thank them for their work on that issue.
I want to leave the committee with just a couple of
additional thoughts here. I am a Republican. I am a pretty
conservative Republican, and I worry that there has been a
movement in my party and in my movement in response to the
legislation that I proposed that would not hold Norfolk
Southern or the rail industry accountable. I want to be
explicit about that.
I am not talking about returning, and this bill is not
returning, to the days of rate-setting. The 1980's level
airline and rail deregulation, I think, in a lot of ways, was
good for consumers and good for the industry, but that doesn't
mean we cannot have reasonable public safety enhancements in
response to what happened in East Palestine.
I have talked to a number of my Republican colleagues, and
nearly everybody has dealt in complete good faith, whether they
like the bill or have some concerns about it, and these
comments are not directed at them. Who they are directed at is
a particular slice of people who seem to think that any public
safety enhancements for the rail industry is somehow a
violation of the free market.
If you look at this industry and what has happened in the
last 30 years, that argument is a farce. This is an industry
that enjoys special subsidies that almost no industry enjoys.
This is an industry that enjoys special legal carveouts that
almost no industry enjoys.
This is an industry that just 3 months ago had the Federal
Government come in and save them from a labor dispute. It was
effectively a bailout, and now they are claiming before the
Senate and the House that our reasonable regulation, our
reasonable legislation, is somehow a violation of the free
market? Well, pot, meet the kettle, because that doesn't make
an ounce of sense. You cannot claim special government
privileges. You cannot ask the government to bail you out and
then resist basic public safety.
Let me just say this. You have heard a lot of talk from my
fellow Republicans, and I think that talk is very justified,
that we are the party of working people in this Country. There
has been a big political realignment in this Country over the
last 30 years, a political realignment that, frankly, I
benefited from. We are the party of firefighters, of police
officers, of the people who go to work, pay their taxes, fight
our Country's wars, and keep our communities safe. We are proud
of that, and we should be proud of that on the Republican
party.
Now we are faced with a choice. With this legislation and
how we respond to this crisis, do we do the bidding of a
massive industry that is in bed with big government, or do we
do the bidding of the people who elected us to the Senate and
to the Congress in the first place?
I believe that we are the party of working people, but it
is time to be the party of working people. We have a choice.
Are we for big business and big government, or are we for the
people of East Palestine? It is a time for choosing. Let's make
the right one.
[The prepared statement of Senator Vance follows:]
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Senator Carper. Thank you very, very much, Senator Vance.
Thank you, Senator Brown.
My colleagues on this committee have heard me say more than
a few times, bipartisan solutions are lasting solutions. I am
encouraged that there is a bipartisan spirit afoot here. I
would urge you to continue to grow that. We will try to kindle
support for it, as well.
With that having been said, we are going to recognize our
next panel of witnesses. I want to call the second panel of
witnesses to come forward. The first witness will be Mr. Shaw.
In addition to Mr. Shaw, we will be hearing from Debra Shore,
the Regional Administrator for Region V of the Environmental
Protection Agency.
Good morning, one and all. I think I have had a chance to
welcome you individually and personally. We appreciate very
much not only your presence here, but your willingness to share
your thoughts and ideas with us as we try to make right a
terrible wrong.
We are going to turn to our first witness, Alan Shaw. I
appreciate the time you spent with me on the phone earlier this
week. Mr. Shaw, you may begin your testimony at this time.
Thank you. Welcome.
STATEMENT OF ALAN SHAW, PRESIDENT AND CEO, NORFOLK SOUTHERN
CORPORATION
Mr. Shaw. Good morning, Chairman Carper, Ranking Member
Capito, and distinguished members of the committee. I
appreciate the opportunity to testify before you today.
My name is Alan Shaw, and I have been President and CEO of
Norfolk Southern since May 2022. I want to begin today by
expressing how deeply sorry I am for the impact this derailment
has had on the residents of East Palestine and the surrounding
communities.
I have been to East Palestine many times over the past
month. I have talked with the leaders, the business owners, the
school officials, the clergy, and others throughout the
community. They have shared their stories and their concerns
about the health of their families and the future of the
community they love.
I am determined to make this right. Norfolk Southern will
clean the site safely, thoroughly, and with urgency. You have
my personal commitment. Norfolk Southern will get the job done
and help East Palestine thrive. At the direction of, and in
collaboration with, the U.S. EPA, State and local agencies, we
are developing and implementing near-and longer-term cleanup
activities.
Air and water monitoring have been in place continuously
since the accident, and to date, it consistently indicated that
the air is safe to breathe and the water is safe to drink.
In terms of community support, we have announced direct
investments of over $21 million. We have provided support to
more than 4,400 families through Norfolk Southern's Family
Assistance Center. We established a $1 million fund available
immediately to community leaders who will identify where
donations can do the most good for East Palestine.
We committed $7.5 million to Pennsylvania for a community
relief fund, and we are reimbursing Pennsylvania emergency
responders and health and environmental agencies for costs
related to the derailment.
All of this is just a down payment. We recently signed a
lease for a more permanent space in East Palestine. I asked one
of our front-line railroaders, who lives in East Palestine, to
take on a new role as a full-time liaison reporting directly to
my office. He is advocating for the community in my office and
overseeing distribution of another $1 million. We will be in
the community for as long as it takes.
To be clear, there are no strings attached to our
assistance. If residents have a concern, we want them to come
talk to us. Our website, nsmakingitright.com, provides the
latest information and details on how to reach us.
We have been cooperating fully with the NTSB's
investigation into the cause of the derailment. The preliminary
report found that the Norfolk Southern crew was operating the
train below the speed limit and in an approved manner, yet it
is clear the safety mechanisms in place were not enough.
As the NTSB continues its work, we are not waiting to act.
Shortly after the derailment, I instructed my team to look at
steps we could take to improve safety immediately. We have
announced a number of initiatives to do just that.
These steps are just a start, and we look forward to
working with policymakers and industry on others. We are also
going to make our safety culture the best in the industry.
The events of the last month are not who we are as a
company. When I began my tenure as CEO 10 months ago, I spent
hours in crew rooms all over our 22-State network, thanking our
front-line railroaders and asking them for their advice. They
are proud of the important work they do for the U.S. economy
and take safety seriously.
I am going to make sure they have the right training, the
right processes, the right equipment, and the right technology.
You have my commitment on that.
Since becoming CEO, I have dedicated our company to
charting a new course in the industry. I intend to continue
working with industry stakeholders, including railcar owners,
lessors, shippers, and other railroads to make industry-wide
safety improvements. It is going to take all of us, and Norfolk
Southern is eager to lead that effort.
Today, I am proud to represent more than 19,700 Norfolk
Southern employees who work every day to offer a safe and
efficient means of transporting goods to businesses and
families across our great Country. When Norfolk Southern is
successful, it is because our craft railroaders are getting the
job done for our customers and the U.S. economy.
Thank you again for the opportunity to appear before you
today. I look forward to your questions.
[The prepared statement of Mr. Shaw follows:]
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Senator Carper. Mr. Shaw, thanks very much for joining us
today. Thank you for that statement, and again for the time you
spent with me on the phone recently.
Next, we are pleased to welcome Debra Shore, the Regional
Administration for Region V of the United States Environmental
Protection Agency. Ms. Shore, you are welcome to begin. Some
things have been suggested that the EPA maybe hasn't done
everything as well as they could have done, should have done.
My sense is that EPA was on the scene within hours of the
derailment, and not only have you been there a constant
presence, but we have seen our Administrator, Michael Regan, be
there, and he will be there again. It is important; I commend
you for that. We need for you to stay on the job, right on the
scene, so thank you.
You are recognized.
STATEMENT OF DEBRA SHORE, REGIONAL ADMINISTRATOR, UNITED STATES
ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AGENCY, REGION V
Ms. Shore. Thank you, Chairman Carper, Ranking Member
Capito, and members of the committee for inviting me here today
and for the opportunity to address your questions.
I want to start by affirming that EPA's mission is to
protect human health and the environment so that all
communities across America have clean air, clean land, and
clean water. The health and safety of those who have been
affected by the Norfolk Southern train derailment is a top
priority for me and for EPA.
That is why, as soon as EPA was notified of the train
derailment on Friday, February 3d, EPA personnel were onsite in
East Palestine within hours to support our State and local
partners who were in the lead for emergency response efforts.
Every day since, EPA has been boots on the ground, working in a
bipartisan manner across all levels of government to help this
community.
I have personally been in East Palestine listening to
residents and have heard how devastating this derailment has
been. They are understandably worried, and some are scared.
Every time a train whistle blows, they are reminded of the
trauma inflicted upon them by Norfolk Southern.
That is why we have used one of EPA's most powerful
enforcement tools to hold Norfolk Southern accountable and to
require the company to clean up the mess it made. I want to be
abundantly clear: the residents of the greater East Palestine
community are not alone. EPA is with them and will continue to
be with them for as long as it takes.
Since the derailment, EPA has been leading robust air
quality testing using state-of-the-art technology in and around
East Palestine. We are currently conducting 24-7 air monitoring
at 21 stations throughout the community. I am pleased to report
that since the fire was extinguished on February 8th, EPA
monitors have not detected any volatile organic compounds above
levels of health concerns.
While EPA is encouraged by the data, we also recognize that
the people of East Palestine still question the health and
safety of their community and their loved ones. In response,
EPA has been assisting with indoor air screenings for homes
through a voluntary program offered to residents to provide
them with information and help restore their piece of mind. As
of March 4th, approximately 600 homes have been screened
through this program, and no detections of vinyl chloride or
hydrogen chloride have been identified.
On the water side, Ohio EPA in partnership with the
Pennsylvania Department of Environmental Protection, local
health agencies, and public water systems continues to lead
water sampling efforts, with EPA providing support.
What I have described so far summarizes EPA's ongoing
efforts to protect the health and safety of those living in
East Palestine, as well as in the surrounding areas of Ohio and
Pennsylvania in the aftermath of this disaster.
Now, let me turn to how EPA is holding Norfolk Southern
accountable. On February 21st, we issued a unilateral
administrative order to Norfolk Southern, which includes a
number of directives to identifying cleanup-contaminated soil
and water resources, to attend and participate in public
meetings at EPA's request, and to post information online, to
pay for EPA's costs for work performed under this order.
EPA is overseeing Norfolk Southern's cleanup work to ensure
it is done to EPA's specifications. The work plans will outline
all steps necessary to clean up the environmental damage caused
by the derailment. Most importantly, if the company fails to
complete any of the EPA-ordered actions, the agency will
immediately step in, conduct the necessary work, and then force
Norfolk Southern to pay triple the cost.
EPA's order holds Norfolk Southern accountable and
facilitates in the transition from the multiagency emergency
response phase to a longer-term cleanup phase. Throughout my 11
days spent on the ground in East Palestine, I have learned that
it is a proud and resilient community. Those who live there and
in the surrounding communities have roots that go back
generations. We owe it to these people to restore these
beautiful communities to the special places we know they hold
dear.
That is exactly what EPA is working to accomplish, all
while continuing to work hand in hand with our partners at the
local, State, and Federal levels.
Again, thank you for inviting me here today. I look forward
to the dialog and to answering your questions.
[The prepared statement of Ms. Shore follows:]
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Senator Carper. Thank you so much and convey our thanks to
your colleagues at EPA for being there right away onsite and
staying there through even today. Keep it up.
Everything I do, I know I can do better. I think that is
true of all of us. I would just say, let's find ways to do even
better going forward.
Anne Vogel, why do not you just start off your testimony
with answering a question. Explain for folks who might be
watching this, how do we have EPA here, Region III EPA, and we
have Ohio EPA. How is that? Just take a minute and explain
that. It will not count against your time.
STATEMENT OF ANNE VOGEL, DIRECTOR, OHIO ENVIRONMENTAL
PROTECTION AGENCY
Ms. Vogel. Thank you, Chairman. Ohio EPA is the Ohio agency
dedicated to protecting human health and the environment,
similar to the work of the U.S. EPA, which covers the whole
Nation.
Senator Carper. Thank you. Go right ahead, we are delighted
that you are here. Please proceed.
Ms. Vogel. Good morning, Chairman Carper, Ranking Member
Capito, members of the committee. My name is Anne Vogel,
Director of the Ohio Environmental Protection Agency.
On behalf of Governor DeWine, Lieutenant Governor Husted,
and the talented team that I am privileged to represent at the
Ohio Environmental Protection Agency, I thank you for allowing
me to share our ongoing efforts to protect human health and the
environment in East Palestine, a community that I have called
home for the past month.
Governor DeWine has been to the village regularly to
reassure the community that, while this is Norfolk Southern's
train, their wreck, and their mess, the entire apparatus of
State government has been mobilized to assist as East Palestine
begins to recover from this traumatic experience. More than a
dozen cabinet officials have spent time in East Palestine
assessing short-term and long-term needs, answering questions,
and standing up support operations, such as the free health
clinic in town.
Ohio EPA has a dedicated team of experts, the emergency
response team, with a combined 150 years of experience in
environmental emergency management. It responded to the
derailment within 1 hour of being notified by the railroad. By
12:25 a.m. on February 4th, Ohio EPA was on the scene and
immediately began the work of containing the release of
chemicals into the nearby Sulphur Run. We have worked around
the clock since that day to oversee removal of the gross
contamination from the creeks in the immediate derailment area.
Ohio EPA's oversight also includes ensuring the safety of
residents served by the municipal water system in East
Palestine. In the days immediately after the derailment and now
continuing on a weekly basis, the municipal wells are tested
for a broad array of chemicals, and all lab reports have
indicated that the public water system is safe. There have been
no detections of contamination related to the derailment.
I am happy to answer any questions you have about Ohio
EPA's response, but what I want to make sure that each of you
here know, along with the village of Palestine, is that the
commitment to stay in East Palestine as long as it takes are
not empty words. We live there. The work of Ohio EPA to restore
the environment in East Palestine is just beginning. The
emergency phase will continue as long as obvious known
contamination remains. For example, we have a large presence on
the ground right now as contaminated soil under the tracks is
excavated.
The investigation phase is also underway. Our oversight of
Norfolk Southern's work plans, along with our Federal partners
for things like soil testing for track removal and replacement,
for water sampling, will make sure Norfolk Southern is taking
all the right steps to remediate and protect East Palestine
from potential long-term hazards.
We have installed monitoring wells at the site of the
derailment to test for potential contamination to groundwater
now and in the future. We have installed sentinel wells for
long-term sampling of groundwater. This is part of an early
detection system that will tell us if contamination is
approaching the municipal well field. We will test municipal
water systems on a weekly basis, and we will do that using our
own labs.
We will continue to be 100 percent transparent, showing
complete lab results immediately. We will attend open houses
and town halls and be present in the community, answering
questions and refuting misinformation with facts. The data that
we collect from each sample, each test, each observation
informs the next step that we will take along the path to long-
term full remediation.
You and your constituents have many of the same questions
that I hear from residents of East Palestine every day. How
long will we test the water? How long until the fish come back?
Can I play in the yard and eat out of my garden? How or when
will we know if the damage to our village is worse than we
thought, or even irreparable?
These are legitimate questions, and I am committed to
finding answers. I can promise East Palestine that Governor
DeWine, his administration, and the whole team at the Ohio EPA
will not stop until the signs definitively show that the
residents of East Palestine are safe in their community.
Again, I thank you for the opportunity to be here today. I
look forward to answering your questions.
[The prepared statement of Ms. Vogel follows:]
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Senator Carper. Thanks very much, Ms. Vogel. Please convey
our best to Mike DeWine, who used to serve here, and now we are
Governors and Congressmen together as well.
For some people who are watching this, joining us from
across the Country, you may be wondering why we have an EPA
Region III. The EPA has ten regions that they operate and are
responsible for. One of them is here, represented today, for
Ohio.
Delaware and West Virginia are in Region III, and
Pennsylvania, the three of us are all Region III. Every State
has a State agency that focuses on environmental protection. In
Delaware, it is the Department of Natural Resources and
Environmental Control. In Ohio, where I spent a lot of years of
my life when I was a kid, it is the EPA of Ohio. We are
delighted that you are here and representing the Governor and
the State.
Next, we are going to hear from Mr. Richard Harrison, the
Executive Director and Chief Engineer for the Ohio River Valley
Water Sanitation Commission, ORSANCO. I am not real big on
acronyms, so tell us, before you even start your testimony, Mr.
Harrison, tell us, what is ORSANCO, so that anybody watching
this on the television across the Country can say, Okay, I
understand that.
STATEMENT OF RICHARD HARRISON, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR AND CHIEF
ENGINEER, OHIO RIVER VALLEY WATER SANITATION COMMISSION
Mr. Harrison. We are an interState commission, sir, and we
represent eight States within the Ohio River Basin, and we work
on protecting the water quality, the water uses of the
interState waters of the basin. We have been here about 75
years doing this great work.
Senator Carper. Have you been there for all those 75 years?
Probably not.
Mr. Harrison. Almost.
[Laughter.]
Senator Carper. Thank you. Go right ahead, Mr. Harrison.
Thanks for joining us.
Mr. Harrison. Good morning, Chairman Carper, Ranking Member
Capito, and members of the committee. My name is Richard
Harrison, Executive Director and Chief Engineer of the Ohio
River Valley Water Sanitation Commission. We are known as
ORSANCO.
We are an interState commission that carries out our
compact signed by eight States: Illinois, Indiana, Kentucky,
New York, Ohio, Pennsylvania, Virginia, and West Virginia, with
approval by the U.S. Congress and participation by the Federal
Government. Since its inception in 1948, ORSANCO has worked to
improve and protect the water quality of the interState waters
of the Ohio River basic.
I appreciate the opportunity to testify before this
committee today regarding ORSANCO's efforts as part of an
exceptional partnership to respond to the East Palestine train
derailment and downstream impact on the Ohio River. ORSANCO's
Compact specifies the protection of the interState waters, the
Ohio River Basin, as a safe and suitable public-industrial
water supply after reasonable treatment. This is a critical
service that ORSANCO provides to the 30 Ohio River surface
drinking water utilities that supply the millions of customers
that rely on them for safe drinking water.
ORSANCO's ability to excel in this type of response is only
possible through the combined efforts of our partners,
including the Ohio River drinking water utilities, our member
States and Governors, the United States EPA, the United States
Army Corps of Engineers, and other Federal partners.
I must highlight Ohio Governor DeWine, the Ohio
Environmental Protection Agency, and U.S. EPA Region V for
their on-scene leadership in this particular response, and the
Greater Cincinnati Water Works, GCWW, who provided critical
laboratory analysis for numerous samples on a 24-7 basis.
ORSANCO has an extraordinary team of 22 professionals and a
total annual budget of $3.9 million. This is below our 2003
budget level. I am very proud of the strong value our
organization provides to our many partners that was most
recently demonstrated through our successful response to the
diluted chemical spill remnants of this event that reached the
Ohio River.
The foundation of our chemical response is our staff's
coordination with our partners, utilizing ORSANCO's Organics
Detection System, ODS. The ODS includes 16 scientific
laboratory instruments owned and operated by ORSANCO and then,
on-scene operated by the Ohio River drinking water utilities
themselves. This system provided the early warning that
chemicals from the derailment had reached the Ohio River.
The ODS has subsequently provided over 40,000 screening
level test results for 30 volatile organic chemicals. Over 130
special samples of the Ohio River were collected by my
scientists and analyzed by Greater Cincinnati Water Works
Laboratory. The proximity of the leading edge of the diluted
spill remnants was tracked by ORSANCO's Time-of-Travel Computer
Model and confirmed by daily sampling completed by our
scientists. This information proved invaluable to our partners.
N-Butyl Acrylate, 2-Ethyl-hexanol, and 2-Ethylhexyl-
acrylate were detected through ORSANCO's initial sampling
efforts from the Little Beaver Creek, the tributary below East
Palestine that feeds the Ohio River near the Ohio and
Pennsylvania State border. As a result, we were able to
calibrate six of our more sophisticated ODS stations to
quantify any detections of these chemicals that may be found in
the remnants.
The Agency of Toxic Substances and Disease Registry, ATSDR,
provided invaluable, timely provisional health guidance
screening levels for these chemicals to determine what level
might pose a health risk to finished drinking water. These
screening levels were 560 parts per billion for n-butyl-
acrylate, 500 parts per billion for 2-Ethylhexyl-acrylate, and
200 parts per billion for 2-ethyl-hexanol. Our highest Ohio
River detection for n-butyl-acrylate was 4.3 parts per billion,
and the analysis results for the other chemicals were all below
one part per billion.
The ATSDR health screening levels and ORSANCO's ODS and
special sampling data analysis provided the scientific
foundation for our conclusion that there were no Ohio River
detections at any levels approaching a concern to public
health. This information was tabulated, posted on ORSANCO's
website, and communicated to the public.
ORSANCO's ability to provide this high level of chemical
spill response is dependent upon our ability to secure
sustainable funding through the Fiscal Year 2024 Federal
appropriations process. This includes the Organics Detection
System.
If the recent accident has taught us anything, it is that
we depend on this system and our capable staff and partners to
respond to threats to our drinking water supply. The current
ODS equipment was last funded by Congress in 2009 and needs
replacement at an approximate cost of $4.7 million.
In short, ORSANCO provided the level of service that our
customers have depended on. Without this Federal investment,
this will be a challenge in the future.
Let me thank the committee once again for the opportunity
to testify today. Thank you.
[The prepared statement of Mr. Harrison follows:]
[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Senator Carper. Mr. Harrison, our thanks to you and
everyone at ORSANCO for your testimony today and for being with
us. Stay on it, please.
Eric Brewer, welcome. I understand you serve as the
Director and Chief of Hazardous Materials Response for the
Beaver Country Department of Emergency Services, not that far
from East Palestine. Senator Capito has already mentioned and
given a shoutout to the first responders who have turned out.
As a former Governor who has spent a lot of time with
disasters of our own in the State of Delaware, we know how
important the work of the first responders are. We are grateful
for their service and sacrifice. Thank you. Please convey our
gratitude.
With that, you are recognized. Make your statement. Thanks.
STATEMENT OF ERIC BREWER, DIRECTOR AND CHIEF OF HAZARDOUS
MATERIALS RESPONSE, BEAVER COUNTY DEPARTMENT OF EMERGENCY
SERVICES
Mr. Brewer. Thank you. Thank you for the opportunity to
speak before you in reference to the emergency in East
Palestine that is directly affecting the residents of Beaver
County, Pennsylvania. This derailment occurred just under 1,000
feet from the Pennsylvania-Ohio line.
I am Eric Brewer, Director of Emergency Services for Beaver
County. I am the appointed Emergency Management Coordinator as
well as the Chief of the Hazardous Materials Response Team. I
have been with the department for 28 years.
I am speaking as a member of the community as well as a
first responder who was on scene the night of the derailment.
My family has been in Beaver County for over 100 years. I was
born, raised, and continue to reside there. I am part of the
community.
I am not an expert on air quality, water quality, or
railcars.
Beaver County is located in southwest Pennsylvania,
approximately 20 miles northwest of the city of Pittsburgh. On
Friday, February 3d, at about 9:15 p.m., I was contacted by the
Emergency Management Director of Columbiana County in Ohio. She
was enroute to a train derailment near the county line and
requested mutual aid from the Beaver County Haz-Mat Team.
Eighteen fire departments from Beaver County also responded to
assist. We arrived at the command post about 10:15, which was
set up at the Leake Oil gas station. On arrival, there was
active fire among several rail cars.
Our mission was to obtain the train consist and start to
research the contents of the tank cars. Norfolk Southern hazmat
personnel and contractors arrived on scene shortly after 11
p.m. At around midnight, after research of the contents, it was
decided to shut down fire operations and move firefighters out
of the immediate area and to let the tank cars burn. This is
not an unusual decision.
This decision was made primarily by Norfolk Southern Hazmat
Coordinator, as well as their contractor. Based on that initial
information, we decided to initiate a one-mile shelter in place
from an intersection just east of Leake Oil. This put the one-
mile radius just into Beaver County. That fire eventually
burned out Sunday morning.
Sunday evening, we received a call from Columbiana County
EMA advising us that the railroad officials were concerned
about one of the tank cars starting to heat up, there was a
possibility of explosion and we should consider a one-mile
evacuation. Ohio officials notified us that the one-mile radius
would now be from the Leake Oil address. This would add
additional residents from Beaver County in the one-mile
evacuation zone. Darlington Township officials went door-to-
door, as well as using a mass notification system to advise the
residents of the one-mile recommended evacuation. It was
stressed that this was a recommendation, as we cannot force
residents from their homes.
Social media posts began to circulate, stating that arrests
would be made if people refused to leave during the evacuation.
Let me be clear: this was not the case in Pennsylvania, as this
was not a mandatory evacuation.
Monday morning, we assembled at the Emergency Operations
Center in East Palestine. We learned that Norfolk Southern
wanted to do a controlled detonation of the tank car in
question. We were assured this was the safest way to mitigate
the problem. During one of those planning meetings, we learned
from Norfolk Southern that they now wanted to do the controlled
detonation on five of the tank cars, rather than just the one.
This changed the entire plan, as it would now impact a much
larger area. I think this confusion was probably a result of a
lack of communication from Norfolk Southern, a fact that they
weren't present during these planning meetings.
The Governors of Ohio and Pennsylvania made it clear to
Norfolk Southern that they needed to communicate better. After
more planning, the controlled detonation eventually occurred
around 4:40 p.m.
Most of the area of concern in Beaver County is rural and
uses well water. There is no municipal water system in that
area. Since the Monday of the controlled detonations, we have
fielded thousands of calls from concerned citizens wanting to
know if they can drink the water, feed their livestock, and if
the air is good.
I continue to get asked about how prepared areas are for a
train derailment. Emergency management consists of several
phases, and one of those is preparedness. The goal of
preparedness is to lessen the impact of a disaster, not prevent
it.
As Senator Vance said, there will continue to be disasters.
However, we can lessen the impact through preparedness,
although it should not take an emergency such as this. I hope
this is an impetus for better support of emergency management
programs. Most emergency management programs across the Country
have outdated laws, are underfunded, and understaffed.
In closing, this was a train wreck. There was not a script
for this. There wasn't a binder for me labeled ``train wreck.''
Everyone needs to know we did the best we could with the
information we had. In the end, no responders were killed or
injured during response.
My message has been consistent. I want the residents and
first responders of Beaver County to be treated the same as
those in East Palestine. The cost of this emergency should not
be a burden to the taxpayers of Beaver County, nor any of the
local municipalities.
Thank you.
[The prepared statement of Mr. Brewer follows:]
[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Senator Carper. Mr. Brewer, thank you, and thanks again to
you and really, the good people throughout this Country who are
willing to get up in the middle of the night to risk their
lives for the rest of us. Thank you.
I am going to ask some questions now and turn it over to
Senator Capito for her questions, and we will hear from some of
our other colleagues. I do not ask a lot of yes or no
questions, Mr. Shaw; I am going to ask a few today and just ask
you to answer, keep it short and answer yes or no if you can.
When I think about the train, the dertailment and chemical
disaster that continues to impact the people of East Palestine
and surrounding communities, I can not help but think what if
this happened in my neighborhood to my own family. We have
fairly heavy train travel, freight train travel throughout
northern Delaware, and our communities are used to seeing those
trains move throughout our State.
What if there were burning toxic trains outside of our
window in our community, damaging our air, our water, and
possibly making my family and our neighbors sick? What if this
disaster lowered the value of our home, our business that I
worked my whole life to build? I will be honest; I would be
furious. I think most of us would be, and we would want to make
sure that Norfolk Southern took action to make our families and
our communities whole.
My first question is just a simple yes or no question, I
have three of them. I think Americans, if we could get them all
in this room, a lot of them would ask the same questions, if
this happened in their towns. Yes or no, will you commit that
Norfolk Southern will be there as long as it takes to make East
Palestine, Ohio, Darlington Township in Pennsylvania, and the
surrounding communities whole from this disaster? Yes or no.
Mr. Shaw. Senator, thank you for that question. I
understand that concern. That is the same concern that is
shared with me by the residents of East Palestine and
Darlington Township. I am terribly sorry for the impact this
derailment has had on the folks of that community, and yes, it
is my personal commitment and Norfolk Southern's commitment
that we are going to be there for as long as it takes to help
East Palestine thrive and recover. That is my personal
commitment.
Senator Carper. I take that as a yes, thank you. That is
the answer I was looking for.
Next question. Will you commit that Norfolk Southern will
compensate the people in these communities for possible long-
term medical costs and economic damages resulting from this
disaster? Yes or no, please.
Mr. Shaw. Senator, we are committed to doing what is right
for the folks of East Palestine and the community. That has
been my personal commitment since the day after this happened.
I pulled my team together and I told my team, we are going to
do more than less with the environmental cleanup, and we are
going to do more than less with the citizens of East Palestine.
Senator Carper. My third question is, yes or no, will you
commit to paying for long-term medical testing for people in
the impacted communities to ensure that anyone with known or
suspected exposure to dangerous chemicals due to this disaster
is monitored for adverse health effects? Yes or no.
Mr. Shaw. Senator, I am committed to doing what is right.
We are going to be there today, tomorrow, a year from now, 5
years from now, 10 years from now. I told the community that. I
have been there in person. I looked into their eyes. I have
heard their concerns. I have been in their family rooms. I am
committed to that community, and so is Norfolk Southern.
Senator Carper. All right, thank you for that.
My second question would be for Administrator Shore. I
commend EPA, I want to commend its employees and leadership for
being in East Palestine, at least for the rank and file to be
there within hours of the accident, and for the hard work that
you and others have been doing every day since then to get the
contamination cleaned up.
I also commend EPA for continuing to listen and response to
the community's concerns, including adapting the monitoring and
sampling to ensure that any adverse environmental impacts and
possible significant health effects from this disaster are
known and addressed.
Administrator Regan's level of personal involvement here I
believe is unprecedented from anything I have seen in my
experience. I think I know the answer, but I will ask you the
same thing I asked Mr. Shaw. That is, do you commit that EPA
will be there for as long as it takes to protect the public
health and environment of the impacted communities?
Ms. Shore. Thank you, Senator Carper. Yes, EPA is committed
to continue to work with our partners in the community and make
sure they have the support that they need and deserve. EPA will
be on the ground as long as it takes.
Senator Carper. Thank you. My last question I will ask is
of Director Vogel, and to Mr. Brewer. Before this hearing I had
the opportunity to speak with several of the officials involved
in the response to this incident, including the governors of
Ohio and Pennsylvania. Governor Shapiro shared with me a letter
he sent to Norfolk Southern on February 14th, 2023. The letter
asserts that Norfolk Southern did not communicate well with
State and local agencies in the early days of the response,
which led to confusion as well as concerns that alternative
options for safely removing the chemicals were not adequately
considered.
In your experience, did you receive the information you
needed for Norfolk Southern to adequately make decisions
relating to protecting public health and safety? Were there any
gaps in communications from Norfolk Southern to responding
agencies in the first 72 hours of the derailment that may have
contributed to distrust within the impacted communities? If so,
has Norfolk Southern satisfactorily addressed any such
communications gaps since that time? Ms. Vogel?
Ms. Vogel. Mr. Chairman, thank you for your question. I do
believe there were quite a few gaps in communication and
missteps in the very early hours following the derailment. I do
believe those gaps in communications have been addressed and
believe the teams are working well together on the ground
today. Yes, things could have been handled better in the
beginning hours.
Senator Carper. Thank you. Mr. Brewer, same question. Were
there any gaps in communications from Norfolk Southern to
responding agencies in the first 72 hours or so of the
derailment that may have contributed to the stress within the
impacted communities? If so, has Norfolk Southern
satisfactorily addressed such communications gaps since that
time?
Mr. Brewer. Thank you. The boots on the ground crews were
great to work with. It seemed when bosses or management got
there, that is where the communication failures started. That
is probably why we are here today. The decision to go from the
one tank car to the five was jaw-dropping, just because of the
impact it had. Since then, they did seem to get better.
Senator Carper. Thank you. Senator Capito, you are
recognized for your questions.
CAP: Thank you. Thank you all for being here; thank you for
your testimony. It is my understanding, this is sort of a
table-setting question here, that no one, not the EPA, not the
State, not Norfolk Southern, has been making these cleanup
decisions in a vacuum. Instead, a unified command group of
these entities and experts has all had input into these major
decisions.
For everybody who is here, could I have a show of hands of
whose organization is represented in this unified command
group?
[Show of hands.]
Mr. Brewer. We used to be, up until like last week or so.
EMA is involved, which is Columbiana.
CAP: Okay, thank you. Is that a fair assessment that I made
forward, that these decisions are not made individually, they
are made by the unified command? If you disagree, you can shake
your heads. All right, thank you.
I mentioned in my opening statement, I want to go right to
the EPA, Director Shore. Thank you for being on the ground
early. I commended you in my opening statement, and your
organization. I understand this may be something we may get
into a little bit later, you have Region V, Region III, within
1,000 feet of Pennsylvania.
I am concerned now about something Senator Vance talked
about, and this is the hazardous waste disposal we are seeing
right now. Apparently, there are piles and piles sitting there
right now, not moving. I understand that facilities in Michigan
and Texas that received waste from East Palestine are some of
the most qualified in the entire Country. The U.S. Ecology
facility in Michigan, for instance, had already accepted 360
tons of soil and 3,000 gallons of liquid in full compliance
with their permit.
The EPA has stopped; they have failed to give us an answer
on what legal authority you used to stop those trucks at the
gates of the facility that had already been accepting large
volumes of waste. You said in your statement that this is great
news, because it means the cleanup can continue at a rapid
pace. If it is still sitting there, I would say that is a
contrarian kind of, that is in opposition to what we are
seeing.
All shipments of contaminated soils have been suspended
onsite to test for dioxins, something that should have possibly
been done weeks ago. There was an insistence, I think, that the
dioxin concerns were not as severe as what now you are going
back and testing.
Let me be clear: it goes to this whole mixed messages of
what is going on here. Help me understand why you are delaying
this cleanup effort, why the piles are still piling up. Any
time you get there, it disturbs not just the chemicals, but it
brings the odor and then here comes the lack of trust right
back down onto the community.
Could you help me with this? Is it true that most of the
remaining contaminated soil is still sitting there in East
Palestine? When are you going to get it out of there? Where are
you going to take it? I know you are not doing it, Norfolk
Southern is doing it.
Ms. Shore. Senator Capito, thank you for that. First, I
want to thank you for acknowledging the heroic efforts of all
the emergency responders who were on the scene within hours,
including EPA on-scene coordinators from both Region III and
Region V. I have them at the front of mind every day. Thanks
for acknowledging their efforts.
Let me report that waste is moving offsite, even as
recently as yesterday and today.
CAP: Where is it going? Where is it going from the site?
Ms. Shore. To a number of facilities that are EPA-approved,
that have the capacity to receive the waste, that have contacts
with Norfolk Southern, and that have gone through our due
diligence and a compliance review, which is necessary once
Federal EPA issued the order and assumed authority for the
cleanup work from Ohio EPA. We did pause to conduct that
necessary due diligence and compliance review. Then all the
facilities fell under the CERCLA regulations.
Norfolk Southern engages facilities wherever they may be to
accept solid and liquid waste. It is EPA's responsibility to
ensure that the safeguards are in place for that waste and the
loading transport and unlading to make sure that they are
compliant with our regulations and to make sure they have the
capacity to take the waste.
I can share some good news with you, that the results from
the dioxin testing that Indiana requested came in yesterday.
There are very low levels. We expect waste to be moving perhaps
as soon as today to other facilities. No option is off the
table.
CAP: I would like to see a list of the facilities. I would
also like to ask quickly, if I can have just another minute,
why did you wait a month before you started to order the dioxin
testing, when the community was asking for this? Was that a
decision that you made early on, that it wasn't critical? How
was that decision made?
Ms. Shore. Senator Capito, our air monitoring was searching
for primary indicators, such as phosgene and hydrogen chloride
immediately, during, and after the burn. We detected very low
levels which very quickly went even down to non-detect.
Without those primary indicators, it was a very low
probability that dioxins would have been created. They are
secondary products of the burning of vinyl chloride.
We were listening to the community. They expressed
significant concerns about dioxins. Norfolk Southern has
submitted a soil sampling plan. It has undergone review by the
unified command and our folks will be out sampling soils for
dioxins. There is a meeting with Agriculture representatives
this afternoon.
CAP: Thank you. The air issue is obviously 30 days late, it
is a little bit well past the time when the intensity might
have been felt more. Thank you for your answers.
Senator Carper. Thanks for those questions.
Now I am going to take a couple of minutes and ask a few
questions that were submitted by Senator Fetterman, who can not
join us today. First question would be with regard to the
Railway Safety Bill that has been introduced by several of our
colleagues who spoke earlier.
My first question is to Mr. Shaw. In light of the
derailment in East Palestine and the subsequent derailment and
train crash that both happened in the last week, the National
Transportation Safety Board and the Federal Railroad
Administration have both announced that they will be conducting
investigations into the safety of your company. The U.S.
Department of Transportation has called on Norfolk Southern to
act urgently to improve your focus on safety. Additionally, I,
along with Senators Brown, Casey and Vance, have introduced a
bill that would impose commonsense measures to improve rail
safety.
Senator Fetterman's question is this. Will you commit to
supporting the bipartisan Railway Safety Act and help restore
the public's trust in your company?
Mr. Shaw. Senator, thank you for that question. We are
committed to the legislative intent to make rail safer. Norfolk
Southern runs a safe railroad. It is my commitment to improve
that safety and make our safety culture the best in the
industry.
Just last year, derailments on Norfolk Southern were the
lowest they have been in the last 10 years. Our personal injury
rate is amongst the lowest in the industry. As you and I spoke
about yesterday, we can always get better. That is my intent,
is to continue to invest and continue to improve.
Senator Carper. Thank you. As a followup from Senator
Fetterman, he would like me to ask you, if you do not support
the bill in its entirety, are there specific provisions of the
bipartisan Rail Safety Act that Norfolk Southern could support?
Mr. Shaw. Senator, there are a number of provisions that we
would absolutely support. The rail industry has been in support
of tighter tank car standards for a number of years. I
understand that is in the bill.
We support more training and more funding for first
responders. We support enhanced wayside detector technology. In
fact, Norfolk Southern is leading the industry in a number of
ways. You saw just this week a six-point safety plan that
included a number of issues in which we are implementing
immediately to improve safety, including installing more
wayside detectors. The first one was installed yesterday
outside of East Palestine.
Senator Carper. Thank you. Another question for you, Mr.
Shaw, one more question from Senator Fetterman. His staff has
heard from local officials in Darlington Township that Norfolk
Southern began giving ``inconvenience'' stipends to individuals
with an East Palestine zip code. After requests from Darlington
and Beaver County, Senator Fetterman, along with Senator Casey
and Congressman Deluzio, Norfolk Southern extended the
inconvenience stipend. It is still not clear how wide an area
that covers.
Senator Fetterman is asking you to please clarify whether
Pennsylvanians who left their homes after the derailment are
entitled to this financial assistance from Norfolk Southern.
Mr. Shaw. Thank you for that question. I am, again,
terribly sorry for the impact and the disruption that this has
had on the local communities. I am proud of the fact that
Norfolk Southern had established a family assistance center
within 24 hours of the derailment. We have assisted well over
4,400 families, including families from Pennsylvania.
Earlier this week, we announced a much more comprehensive
package, totaling $7.5 million, for Pennsylvania. Again, sir,
that is just a down payment.
Senator Carper. All right. A followup to that, Senator
Fetterman believes they need more insight into how Norfolk
Southern coordinated with Pennsylvania agencies in the
immediate response to the derailment. While the national
attention has been focused on the Ohio side, this derailment
occurred less than a mile from the Pennsylvania border.
Pennsylvanians live directly downwind from the chemical release
and burn.
Mr. Shaw, again this is Senator Fetterman's question, why
weren't the Pennsylvania Emergency Management Agency and
Pennsylvania Department of Environmental Protection contacted
until hours after the derailment? Is there a process in place
to notify the relevant State agencies when a derailment of
train cars containing hazardous materials occurs? If so, why
hasn't this process been followed in this instance?
Mr. Shaw. Senator, the process that is established is part
of the Department of Homeland Security Presidential directive
that was established in 2003. My understanding is Norfolk
Southern immediately contacted the National Response Center
which then contacted applicable Federal, State and local
authorities.
Senator Carper. All right. Now we are going to turn to
Senator Mullin for his questions.
Senator Mullin. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you so much
for being here.
I want to add to Senator Capito's question to Ms. Shore. I
am going to ask Mr. Shaw, would you speak to the fact that the
waste is being disposed at a facility 17 miles from East
Palestine?
Mr. Shaw. I am sorry, Senator, could you repeat the
question?
Senator Mullin. Well, we have reports that East Liverpool
in Ohio is receiving this waste from East Palestine that has
been disposed of. Is that accurate?
Mr. Shaw. Senator, standing here today, I do not know if
that is accurate as of this time.
Senator Mullin. Do you know where the waste is going to?
Mr. Shaw. We are in the process of working with the EPA on
a number of facilities.
Senator Mullin. We have not identified where it is moving
to yet?
Mr. Shaw. Senator, we are in the process of working with
the EPA on a number of facilities that----
Senator Mullin. I understand that. I am just, I get you are
in the process. We have not identified a place where this is
being removed to yet. Is that accurate?
Mr. Shaw. Senator, I want to make sure I give you the most
accurate----
Senator Mullin. I get that. I am just saying, is it
accurate that we do not have a spot yet for it?
Mr. Shaw. Senator, we are moving some offsite.
Senator Mullin. Where is it moving to?
Mr. Shaw. I am happy to give you a list of those
facilities?
Senator Mullin. Could you do that for us, please? I would
appreciate that.
Mr. Shaw, when the vent and burn process was being made,
who made those decisions and what was other considerations,
other than just burning it and letting the material burn off?
Mr. Shaw. Thank you for that question. The only
consideration, Senator, was the safety and health of the
community. That decision was made by the unified command under
the direction of the incident commander.
Senator Mullin. Who is that?
Mr. Shaw. The incident commander was Fire Chief Drabick.
Norfolk Southern was a part of the unified command.
Senator Mullin. Who owns the car? Who actually owned the
rail card with the material in it?
Mr. Shaw. The rail cars in question are tank cars which no
railroad owns.
Senator Mullin. Were they considered in this
decisionmaking? Are they responsible for the content of it, and
the car itself, for the maintenance and the material in it,
isn't that correct?
Mr. Shaw. Senator, it is a privately owned rail car. The
maintenance requirements for that rail car are between the rail
car lessor and the customer and those are private contracts. I
am not privy to those.
Senator Mullin. They are responsible for the content and
the car, correct, making sure it is operating properly?
Mr. Shaw. Yes, sir.
Senator Mullin. Were they considered in this
decisionmaking, considering it was their car, their design,
their responsibility? Were the part of that decisionmaking on
being able to vent it and burn it?
Mr. Shaw. Senator, the customer provided input.
Senator Mullin. Were they in the room when the decision was
being made? I have received reports that they weren't. They
weren't in the room?
Mr. Shaw. No, sir, not to my knowledge.
Senator Mullin. I just see that kind of hard to believe,
considering that it is their car, it is their responsibility,
and they weren't even considered before this decision to vent
and burn it in the middle of a town. Doesn't that seem like
possibly a mistake there?
Mr. Shaw. Senator, unified command was focused solely on
the health and safety of the community.
Senator Mullin. Right. The people that was in charge of the
car should probably have a say in that to make sure we know the
best way to dispose of it.
Mr. Shaw. My understanding at the time from talking to
experts was that we were at risk of a catastrophic rupture that
would have resulted in uncontrolled release of hazardous
materials.
Senator Mullin. It is my understanding, and I have not been
able to clarify this, that the report that I received was the
fact that the car was actually working properly at the time.
The car's owners, the ones responsible for it, wasn't consulted
before it burned off. Now, I have not been able to verify that,
but I am asking these questions because that is the information
I received. If that is the case, I think that is an area for
improvement. Wouldn't you consider that?
Mr. Shaw. Senator, I can not comment on the accuracy of
that report. I am not aware of that.
Senator Mullin. I am saying, if it is accurate, if that was
accurate, wouldn't you consider that is a place we could
probably learn from?
Mr. Shaw. I think the primary concern was the health and
safety of the communities.
Senator Mullin. Sir, I get what you are saying. I am not
trying to be disrespectful to you. I am saying is, if all
parties that are responsible for that car should have been part
of that decisionmaking, because I believe they would probably
say that they would be concerned too. I think everybody in this
room will say that we are concerned about the health and safety
of others. That is a give-me. There is no point in repeating
that.
I am just saying, how can we learn from this going forward,
if they weren't in the room during the decisionmaking and yet
it was their car and the report may be accurate that the car
was actually working functionally correctly, because these cars
are designed for this kind of incident, that the option to vent
and burn may not have been the best option if we didn't
consider all other options first.
Mr. Shaw. Senator, I understand that. The experts on the
ground who were there were very concerned about the pressure in
a car. We also noted that other cars had been in a pool fire.
Unified command was aware that there was concern for a
catastrophic explosion that would shoot VCM gas and shrapnel--
--
Senator Mullin. I hear you. We are just talking in circles
here.
Chairman, what I am trying to get to is the fact that if
this car was designed by someone else and if this car was owned
by somebody else and the function of that car was designed by
somebody else and was responsible by somebody else, then how do
we know that the car wasn't working properly to begin with?
That is a question that needs to be answered. Someone may need
to be held responsible that made the decision to burn this off.
Some of this, and a lot of this, could have been prevented.
With that, I will yield back.
Senator Carper. Thank you very much for those questions.
Senator Cardin, you are next.
Senator Cardin. First, Mr. Chairman and Ranking Member,
thank you very much for scheduling this hearing. I want to
thank all the witnesses who are at the table.
Yes, I am very concerned that this was a preventable
accident, preventable circumstance. The safety standards should
have been able to deal with this. There needs to be full
accountability. We need to make changes moving forward. We have
concerns about corporate responsibility and decisions made at
the corporate level, all areas that are of grave concern to
every member of this committee.
I represent the State of Maryland. The Ohio River may not
flow through the State of Maryland, but its watershed does
impact water in Maryland. I am interested, if I can, Mr.
Harrison, Ms. Vogel, if I can get your understanding of how you
are monitoring the quality of water as a result of this
incident. What concerns me is that we have more extreme weather
events that are occurring in our communities.
As you are doing your monitoring, what precautions are you
taking for extreme weather events that are likely to occur, and
the impact that that could have, not just on Ohio and
Pennsylvania, but perhaps even on Maryland as it relates to
water quality or even air quality?
Mr. Harrison. Thank you, Senator, for that question. I will
speak to the work ORSANCO has been doing to protect the Ohio
River drinking water supply. It really hinges on our great
organics detection system, which is a number of scientific
instruments, including six that are GC mass specs, which are
very sophisticated instruments. We have been able to calibrate
those for the various chemicals that we are able to detect.
Those continue to operate.
In addition to being able to utilize those for one-off
sampling that we did as we tracked the spill remnants all the
way through over 700 miles down the Ohio River, we are
continuing to operate those, actually our drinking water
utilities are continuing to operate those on a daily basis.
That systems remains in operation and will continue to be in
operation as long as necessary.
We are able to detect those chemicals and any threats that
might come through rain. I am involved in the unified command,
except for today. We have anywhere from two to three meetings a
day and we are abreast of the onsite conditions that may occur.
Last week's rain, for instance, we were able to demonstrate
with our equipment that we did not detect any of the chemicals
of concern.
Senator Cardin. In regard to groundwater sources?
Mr. Harrison. We do not work in the groundwater arena. Our
compact focuses on surface water.
Senator Cardin. Ms. Vogel, can you add to this?
Ms. Vogel. Senator Cardin, thank you for your question. We
appreciate the work of ORSANCO. My team on the ground from AEP
Ohio is sampling the surface water every single day. We are
taking samples in 20 different locations. We have a website set
up with an interactive map where you can see exactly where we
are sampling and what we are sampling for. It is a broad array
of chemicals of concern, but also volatile chemicals generally.
We are posting those results. We are continuing to see dilution
of the chemicals of concern.
I just want to be very transparent and say, we will
continue to sample as long as we find any detections. It does
seem to be facing.
On the groundwater side, Senator, we have installed
monitoring wells at the location of the derailment. We have
also installed sentinel wells near Sulphur Run and Leslie,
between them and the municipal well field so that we will be
able to test those on a weekly basis and know if there are any
contaminants that might be approaching any groundwater or
drinking water.
Senator Cardin. Are you being totally transparent as you
are doing this so that those of us who have concerns,
particularly about impacts of extreme weather events, will be
able to get contemporary assurances that the monitoring is
being done?
Ms. Vogel. Yes, Senator. It is the No. 1 priority of the
team on the ground to prevent any additional releases, either
through rain events or of course, from going any further than
the initial contaminated area. That is our No. 1 goal with
water management right now.
In terms of transparency, we are posting full lab results
the minute we get them. The Governor is very committed to being
transparent and providing all the information that we have when
we have it.
Senator Cardin. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Senator Carper. Thank you very much for joining us today.
I am told that Senator Ricketts is next in line. If you are
ready, I will yield to you. Thanks for joining us.
Senator Ricketts. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. Thank
you to all the panelists for joining us here today. Of course,
Nebraskans are praying for the people of East Palestine and
this terrible tragedy. We have a number of railroads that go
across our State as well, so we are praying for a good outcome
here with regard to the cleanup.
Ms. Shore, I would like to address my first couple of
questions to you. I am sure you agree that Americans deserve
timely and helpful updates when it comes to an environmental
catastrophe, right? Yes. Yes, Okay, great. You agree Americans
should be confident when they return to their homes that they
are safe to return to, right?
Ms. Shore. Yes.
Senator Ricketts. What are some of the things that the EPA
has learned from with your response here that you would use to
be able to improve going forward with regard to, we have heard
how the people of East Palestine are not believing what the
government is saying. What can the EPA do or what have you
learned from this to be able to help for the next incident to
be able to help the people of that community get the
information, feel like it is safe to return to their homes?
Ms. Shore. Thank you, Senator Ricketts. First, let me say I
bring greetings from your sister, Laura, who has been a long-
time friend of mine back in Illinois.
To your question, we are still enmeshed in the cleanup of
the derailment. That is our primary focus. We need to clean up
the site, get the contaminated waste out of there, and then
focus on the longer-term remediation. There will be an after-
action report, and we will be able to drill in on what lessons
we can learn and how we can do better.
Right now, we need to clean up the site as safely and
quickly as possible, and ensure that the necessary safeguards
are in place to protect human health and the environment.
Senator Ricketts. All right. Thank you, Ms. Shore.
Mr. Shaw, I am going to ask you basically the same
questions. I am sure you agree that Americans should have
timely information when there is a catastrophe like this,
right?
Mr. Shaw. Yes, sir. It is an emotional issue and it was a
devastating dertailment for the folks of East Palestine. That
is one of the reasons that we set up our family assistance
center within 24 hours and have served 4,400 families. We have
also established a website, nsmakingitright.com. That is based
on feedback that I have gotten from the community as I have
walked around and talked to people. They want more information,
sir.
Senator Ricketts. I am sure you agree that people want to
know when it is safe to go back to their homes as well. What
has Norfolk Southern learned from this that would help them be
able to provide that information to people so they can feel
comfortable in going back to their homes and they are getting
the proper information in a timely way? What have you learned
about what you would do differently going forward?
Mr. Shaw. Senator, in the immediate aftermath of this
derailment, we had air monitoring in place, we had water
monitoring in place. We have been collaborating with the EPA.
My understanding is all the tests have shown that the air is
safe and the water is safe.
Senator, to your point, when we set up our website, I asked
the citizens of East Palestine for feedback. I asked them to
tell me how we could make it better. What they have asked for
is information on the website on the results of those air test
and the water tests. Senator, I have also made sure that we
point folks to the results of the Ohio EPA and the Federal EPA
air and water tests. They are the experts. We are here to
support them.
Senator Ricketts. Is there anything in hindsight that you
say, hey, we should have done this better when it comes to how
we are communicating with the people of East Palestine?
Mr. Shaw. Senator, there are always opportunities to
improve communication. I was there very soon after the
derailment. I immediately went to the Norfolk Southern Family
Assistance Center, and I immediately went to the Red Cross
shelter. I told them who I was. I told them the company I
represented. I made sure they knew I was the CEO of Norfolk
Southern.
I also made sure that I asked if they were getting
everything that they needed from Norfolk Southern.
Senator Ricketts. All right. Thank you very much, Mr. Shaw.
I yield back.
Senator Carper. Thanks. Senator Sanders, you are next.
Senator Sanders. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman, and we
thank the panel for being with us today.
Mr. Shaw, you indicated in response to a question from the
Chairman that, ``I am committed to doing what is right.'' Well,
I think all of us are committed to doing what is right. The
devil is in the details.
Mr. Shaw, Wall Street, about a decade ago, in order to
increase the profits they were earning in the rail industry,
implemented a program called precision scheduled railroading.
The result of that is that Norfolk Southern reduced its
workforce by almost 40 percent over 6 years.
Meanwhile, in fact, Wall Street's goal was achieved,
profits soared for Norfolk Southern. You made over $3 billion
in profits last year.
I have been told by workers who work for your company and
other rail companies that they are now being asked to do more
work with fewer workers. That includes safety inspections. Well
before this disaster in East Palestine, we have been told about
the potential safety hazards.
Will you make a commitment right now to the American people
that you will lead the industry in ending this disastrous
precision schedule railroading, which has slashed your work
force and made railroading much less safe? Yes or no, will you
make that commitment?
Mr. Shaw. Senator, I understand your concern and I share
that concern. If you will permit, I have a couple points on
that.
I became CEO in May of last year. Ever since that point,
Senator, we have been on a hiring spree. The number of
employees at Norfolk Southern today is 1,500 more than it was
this time last year.
Senator Sanders. You will forgive me, I do not mean to be
rude. We just do not have a whole lot of time here. I
understand that. You will not deny what you are trying to do is
rebuild from the massive layoffs that took place.
My question back to you again, Wall Street, not the
industry, imposed this on the industry. Wall Street said, we
are not making enough money. Cut workers, cut workers, cut
workers, even if it endangers safety.
My question to you, very simply, sir, will you lead the
industry in doing away with precision scheduled railroading,
that concept?
Mr. Shaw. Senator, in December of last year, I charted a
new course in the industry that said we are going to move away
from a near-term focus solely on profits, and that we are going
to take a longer-term view that is founded on our engagement
with our craft employees who are so critical to our success.
We were the first to pivot out of it.
Senator Sanders. Let me drill a bit again. I apologize for
cutting you off. When you talk about your employees, the entire
Country I think was shocked to learn a number of months ago
that your employees, rail workers, who work in dangerous,
dangerous jobs in all kinds of weather, has zero paid sick
days. Now, I know that is beginning to change.
I would ask you, given the fact that Norfolk Southern
provided $10 billion in stock buybacks recently, can you tell
the American people and your employees right now that in order
to improve morale in your work force, that you will guarantee
at least seven paid sick days to the 15,000 workers you employ?
I do know you have made some progress. You increased paid sick
days to some of your workers.
Will you do what most Americans think is pretty obvious,
that when you get sick, you get guaranteed paid sick days? Will
you make that commitment right now to your entire work force?
Mr. Shaw. Senator, with our latest agreement with our
employees, which included a historic 24 percent wage increase
and access to premium health care benefits, we immediately
pivoted to talking to each of our local----
Senator Sanders. I have been deeply involved. I introduced
the amendment on the floor. I know the issue. What I am asking
you right now, you provided paid sick days to some of your
employees. I got it, thank you. Will you now do what most
America, we get here in Congress, our employees get sick, they
get paid sick days. Will you make that commitment right now to
guarantee paid sick days to al of your workers? That is not a
radical demand. It really is not. Will you make that
commitment, sir?
Mr. Shaw. Senator, I share your focus on our employees. I
will commit to continuing to discuss with them important
quality of life issues with our local craft colleagues.
Senator Sanders. With all due respect, you sound like a
politician, Mr. Shaw. Paid sick days is not a radical concept
in the year 2023. I am not hearing you make that commitment to
guarantee that to all of your workers. Clearly, we should have
that for every worker in America. I am not hearing that
commitment.
Will you make that commitment, sir?
Mr. Shaw. Senator, I am committed to continuing to speak to
our employees about quality of life issues that are important
to them.
Senator Sanders. All right. I am Chairman of the Health,
Education and Labor Committee. We look forward to having that
discussion.
One last issue.
Senator Carper. Senator Graham is waiting to speak, so
Senator Sanders, if you will keep this really brief.
Senator Sanders. Last question. You talked about covering
the needs of the people of East Palestine. Does that include
paying for their health care needs? All of their health care
needs.
Mr. Shaw. Senator, we are going to do what is right for the
citizens of East Palestine.
Senator Sanders. What is right is to cover their health
care needs. Will you do that?
Mr. Shaw. Everything is on the table, sir.
Senator Sanders. Thank you.
Senator Carper. Thank you, Senator Sanders. Senator Graham?
Senator Graham. Let's just sort of continue what Senator
Sanders was talking about. This hearing is designed to make
sure that this doesn't happen again. Is precision scheduling,
what was the phrase that Senator Sanders used?
Senator Sanders. Precision scheduling railroading.
Senator Graham. Did that have anything to do with this
accident directly?
Mr. Shaw. Senator, thank you for that question. The NTSB
report said that Norfolk Southern crew did everything that they
were supposed to do. I personally thank them for that.
Senator Graham. All right, so let's get back to what we are
here for, is to try to solve the problem in front of us. What
caused this?
Mr. Shaw. Senator, the NTSB report is still ongoing. I am
not waiting to act.
Senator Graham. It wasn't lack of personnel, right?
Mr. Shaw. There is no indication that it was lack of
personnel.
Senator Graham. Or that they did anything wrong?
Mr. Shaw. The NTSB specifically said there is no indication
that the Norfolk Southern crew did anything wrong.
Senator Graham. Okay, when we find out what happened, let's
try to fix it. We can talk about paid leave, and I think I may
have actually voted for Bernie's amendment. I do not quite
remember.
I want to focus on the moment we have here. How many times
have you been to East Palestine?
Mr. Shaw. Senator, I have been there five times.
Senator Graham. Ms. Shore, have you been there?
Ms. Shore. Senator Graham, I have spent 11 out of the last
30 days in East Palestine.
Senator Graham. Do you think you have benefited from having
been there and listened to the people?
Ms. Shore. Very much so.
Senator Graham. What about you, Mr. Shaw?
Mr. Shaw. Yes. It has really helped me.
Senator Graham. Yes is good. Would you be willing to go
with President Biden if he chose to go there? Would you be
willing to go with him if he asked you to go?
Mr. Shaw. Senator, I want to keep the politics out of it. I
am not qualified.
Senator Graham. It is not a political question. The
question is, if the President asked you to go, would you go
with him?
Mr. Shaw. I will go with anybody who wants to go and help
the community of East Palestine.
Senator Graham. Ms. Shore, same for you?
Ms. Shore. If I am asked to go, I certainly will.
Senator Graham. I am calling on the President to ask both
of you, and go. What is the downside of talking to people about
going through a big trauma? Him going there doesn't fix all the
problems. I think it is a step in the right direction. I just
wish you would all go there, so we could all work to solve the
problem. The more we know--maybe I should go there.
The bottom line is, would either one of you have a problem
living there full time given the condition on the ground? Do
you feel it is safe to continue to reside in this town? Mr.
Shaw?
Mr. Shaw. Senator, the EPA and Ohio EPA have very high
standards. I trust their testing.
Senator Graham. Would you live there, given what you have
seen?
Mr. Shaw. Yes, sir. I believe the air is safe, I believe
the water is safe. There are hundreds of tests, there are
millions of data points. They all point to the same thing. I
genuinely enjoy my conversations with the folks in East
Palestine.
Senator Graham. I am sure they are traumatized, and every
time somebody shows up, it is probably good.
Ms. Shore, do you agree that it is a safe place to live?
Ms. Shore. Senator Graham, science is EPA's north star. We
follow the science. I drink the water there; I drink it every
time I go to town. The scientific data shows that it is safe,
as does the air.
Senator Graham. That is good. Ms. Vogel, you are from Ohio.
Have you been there?
Ms. Vogel. I have been in East Palestine since February 3d,
with the exception of 5 days.
Senator Graham. That is a real dedicated effort here. Do
you think you have been enriched by these visits? Has it helped
you?
Ms. Vogel. Yes, Senator.
Senator Graham. Do you think you have learned more about
the problem having talked with these people?
Ms. Vogel. Unquestionably.
Senator Graham. Would you have a problem living there now?
Ms. Vogel. I mostly do.
Senator Graham. You do have a problem with living there?
Ms. Vogel. I mostly live there.
Senator Graham. Okay, so you are Okay?
Ms. Vogel. Yes, sir. My team and I have been there for the
last month.
Senator Graham. Okay, so let's do what we can do make sure
it is safe to live there. Let's make sure that we help these
people. If they have medical needs, let's meet them. Let's find
out what happened and try to fix it the best we can.
Does that make sense to everybody on this panel? Okay.
Whether or not we need to change overtime laws, we will
talk about that. What I want to do is make sure that this
committee understand that if you live there, everybody here
believes it is safe to live there. I feel better about that.
That the railroad company, the people operating the train, are
not accused of being at fault.
Let's find out what happened and fix it. Again, we have two
Senators from Ohio, they are putting together a product. I want
to help them the best we can. I will just end where I began. I
think the President would serve himself and the Country well to
go there. Please go.
Senator Carper. Senator Graham, is that it for you, my
friend? All right, thank you.
Before I turn to Senator Whitehouse for his questions, let
me ask unanimous consent to enter into the record various
materials detailing the Biden Administration's focus on safety
and negligence to the community.
We have heard allegations that the Biden Administration is
sacrificing safety. That is simply not consistent with what has
happened in East Palestine, nor the Biden Administration's
numerous efforts to improve safety both before and since the
accident.
I want to ask unanimous consent to submit for the record
various materials detailing the Environmental Protection
Agency's immediate and ongoing response to the accident as well
as a document describing the Department of Transportation's
immediate response to the accident, including the Pipeline and
Hazardous Materials Safety Administration activities.
A document showing concrete steps to strengthen rail and
hazardous materials safety that Secretary Buttigieg has
directed the Department of Transportation take since the
dertailment, and EPA's proposed rule to strengthen hazardous
materials management and accident prevention under the Risk
Management program.
Last but not least, I would also note that President Biden
called the Ohio and Pennsylvania Governors in the first 48
hours offering assistance. Without objection.
Senator Whitehouse. Mr. Chairman, while we are in unanimous
consent mode, may I ask unanimous consent to add to what you
have asked two articles, one titled Ohio Train Derailment as a
Reminder of Plastics Dangers, another entitled This Deadly
Chemical Should Be Banned.
Then a pair of articles related to the contractor that has
been hired by Norfolk Southern, one entitled Oil Companies Rely
on Controversial Firm to Rebut Colorado Health Study, and
another entitled Checkered Past of the Contractor Monitoring
the Air in East Palestine.
That would be supplemented by a letter from our new
colleague, Peter Welch, back in his day as a House member,
responding to the oil spill expressing concerns about this
company, CTEH. If I could add those to your list of UCs, I
would appreciate it.
Senator Carper. Is there objection? Hearing none, so
ordered.
[The referenced information follows:]
[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Senator Carper. Next, Senator Whitehouse, I think you are
recognized for questions.
WH: Great, thank you. Mr. Shaw, the news is reporting that
there has just been a significant derailment in Alabama of one
of your trains. I certainly hope that all of your team and
anybody in the vicinity is safe and well. You may need to look
into that. I wanted to mention that.
I am interested, in my questions, in the extent to which
politics has played a role in this situation. In 2015, the
Federal Government issued a new regulation requiring trains
like yours that carry certain dangerous substances to be
equipped with electronic brakes. Along with other industry
stakeholders, Norfolk Southern stated that the regulation was
``not in the public interest.'' The industry successfully got
the regulation watered down.
Just 3 years later, the Trump Administration fully repealed
the regulation. I will ask you a question for the record for
your attorneys and staff to reply to about, for all
communications between your company and your trade association
with the Trump Administration relative to that repeal. You do
not have to respond now. That is a coming attraction through
our QFR process.
I also note that since 2002, the rail industry has spent
more than $650 million on Federal lobbying, with another $60
million spent on State lobbying. The five largest spenders were
the Association of American Railroads, your major trade group,
BNSF Railway, CSX Corporation, Union Pacific Corporation, and
you can answer for me who was the fifth big spender. I will
give you a hint: it is Norfolk Southern.
Do you know how much it was that Norfolk Southern spent on
lobbying during that period?
Mr. Shaw. No, sir, I don't.
Senator Whitehouse. For the record, $69 million. Norfolk
Southern lobbies through the National Association of
Manufacturers as well. Do you by any chance know how much
Norfolk Southern gave to National Association of Manufacturers
in 2016 and 2017 when it was opposing the braking regulations I
mentioned?
Mr. Shaw. Senator, I will note that the NTSB Chair Homendy
specifically stated that the braking regulation that you
referenced would not have had an impact on this derailment.
Senator Whitehouse. Okay. Will you answer my question? Do
you know how much you have spent against that regulation?
Mr. Shaw. No, sir, I don't. I also know that the
Government's own GAO and the National Academies of Science
indicated in 2016 that the Department of Transportation's, the
FRA's review of ECP brakes was unjustified.
Senator Whitehouse. I will ask you a question for the
record that the information for 2016 and 2017 that you have
reported for later years in your climate lobbying report be
provided to the committee, an equivalent to what you already
provide, but looking back to those years when this was at
issue.
We have discovered that Norfolk Southern, in a statement
that appears now to have been deleted from your website, had
previously touted the ECP braking systems as having, and I
quote you here, ``the potential to reduce train stopping
distances by as much as 60 percent over convention air brake
systems.'' We have found as early as 2007 a Norfolk Southern
lead engineer promoting the ``big advantage for emergency
braking'' that ECP brakes offered.'' So I want to make those
statements a part of the record.
[The referenced information was not submitted at the time
of print.]
Senator Whitehouse. Is it true, the New York Times
reporting that Norfolk Southern has paid shareholders nearly
$18 billion through stock buybacks and dividends in 2022?
Mr. Shaw. The New York Times is reporting what, sir?
Senator Whitehouse. That Norfolk Southern paid its
shareholders nearly $18 billion through stock buybacks and
dividends in 2022.
Mr. Shaw. Sir, I have a different perspective on that.
Senator Whitehouse. Is the number right?
Mr. Shaw. No, sir.
Senator Whitehouse. Putting aside your perspective?
Mr. Shaw. No, sir.
Senator Whitehouse. Okay. Then let me add to my QFR list
your view of what the accurate number is, as opposed to the New
York Times number.
My time is pretty well up, Mr. Chairman. I hope we can get
prompt and complete answers to those QFRs. Thanks very much.
Senator Carper. We look forward to your responses on QFRs,
questions for the record, and we will talk more about that
before we conclude. Thank you.
Next is Senator Merkley, then Senator Markey, not to be
confused with one another.
Senator Merkley. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. Thank
you all for bringing your testimony to bear. I do hope that the
dertailment that occurred just hours ago, Mr. Shaw, is one that
does not endanger another community.
Back in 2016, Senator Wyden and I were very involved in
pushing for improvements in safety after the derailment
endangered the town of Mosier in Oregon. We found out how much
the industry resists improvements in safety.
That following year, Norfolk Southern was invited to
participate in a conversation with the Administration. They
submitted a 23-page submission of rules and Federal guidance of
things that they wanted, safety and regulations to be removed.
You have noted you are turning over a new leaf in this
regard. So can we count on you and your team of lobbyists to
push for safety improvements rather than lobbying against those
improvements?
Mr. Shaw. Yes, Senator, I share your concern and your
focus.
Senator Merkley. I do not want you to share my concern, I
want to know, will your team lobby for safety improvements
rather than against them?
Mr. Shaw. Senator, we will continue to follow science, we
will continue to follow data. There are actually a number of
areas in which we have invested in safety systems well above
government regulation.
Senator Merkley. I will ask you to submit that for the
record. I really thought when you said turn over a new leaf, I
thought you were saying you were now going to support safety
regulations. I am sorry you can not tell this crowd here today
that would like to hear that that is the case.
Three years ago, Norfolk Southern cut five positions in
East Palestine that oversaw maintenance of equipment detectors
that are used to determine or monitor boxes, sometimes they are
called hotboxes, that measure things that are going on wrong on
the track, including bearing temperature. There are initial
reports that defective bearings or overhearing bearings may
well have been the cause of this particular accident.
Will you pledge today to quit eliminating positions and
sensors that oversee track conditions like removing the folks
who monitor the hotboxes, and instead add and support those
monitors, so that when there is something like an overheating
bearing, it gets detected and the train gets stopped rather
than crashing or derailing?
Mr. Shaw. Senator, the NTSB report indicated that all of
the hotbox detectors were working as designed. Earlier this
week, we announced that we are adding approximately 200 hotbox
detectors to our network. We already have amongst the lowest
spacing between hotbox detectors in the industry, and we
already have amongst the lowest thresholds.
Senator Merkeley. I am delighted to hear you are adding
those back. Thank you. It is also important to recognize those
boxes actually have to be monitored, and it is the five
positions for monitoring them that were eliminated.
I hope in response to the committee you will also be able
to note how those are being monitored and how that monitoring
can be improved.
My last question is that in 2021, your company did $3.1
billion of stock buybacks, and in 2022, $3.4 billion of stock
buybacks. As of December, they had another $7.5 billion
available to do additional stock buybacks under the $10 billion
stock buyback plan.
That is quite impressive numbers for any American company.
It indicates massive profits. Will you pledge today that you
will do no more stock buybacks until a raft of safety measures
have been completed to reduce the risks of derailments and
crashes in the future?
Mr. Shaw. Senator, I will commit to continuing to invest in
safety. We invest over a billion dollars a year.
Senator Merkley. You noted that you have a list of safety
things you would like to implement. Will you commit, no more
stock buybacks until those safety improvements are completed?
Mr. Shaw. Senator, I will commit to continuing to invest in
safety. You have seen over time the number of derailments,
hazardous material releases, and personal injuries has
declined. There is always more that we will do, and I am
committed to having the best safety culture in the industry.
Senator Merkley. You are coming here with three derailments
within 3 months. The average for the industry is one per month
for the entire industry. So congratulations on maybe some good
luck over a few years. At this moment, your team is the team
that has the most derailments in the last 3 months.
I want to note that every engineer understands that if you
have brakes on every car, rather than just brakes on the front
car, that you prevent the accordion style crashes that you have
been having. It is why any truck carrying a trailer has brakes
on the trailer instead so the trailer doesn't flip over the top
of it.
The industry has absolutely resisted these, trying to
deploy their lobbyists to counter every single report about
having those multiple brake systems. I understand it is
complicated, because as you noted, you do not own the cars.
That makes having these coordinated brake systems--but listen,
if we can put people on the moon, we can put brakes on every
train car. This is really the single most significant safety
factor that can be pursued, and I really hope that you and your
company and your industry will take and start taking seriously
safety, which we have not seen to this point.
Mr. Shaw. Senator, I take safety very seriously. There are
brakes on every car. I can assure you of that.
Senator Merkley. I hope you support the Coordinated
Pneumatic Electronically Controlled system that you have been
fighting against for years.
Senator Carper. Senator Markey.
Senator Markey. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, very much.
The East Palestine train derailment was not preordained. It
was preventable. It was a disaster waiting to happen. Corporate
greed, outdated railway safety regulations, lax hazardous
material standards, were all the fuel on a toxic fire that was
ready to combust. This was something that was preordained and
known about because of all of the rail accidents that happen
every year in our Country.
Unfortunately, innocent, hard-working working families in
Ohio and Pennsylvania were the ones that got harmed by this.
Those families were upended, their lives have been changed.
Doctor bills, veterinarian bills, saw the values of their homes
plummet overnight and stayed up late worrying about what this
means for their health and the health of their young children
in the future. These are real harms.
So am I right, Mr. Shaw, that last year, the stock buybacks
by Norfolk Southern were $3.4 billion? Is that correct?
Mr. Shaw. Yes, sir, that's directionally correct.
Senator Markey. Am I correct, Mr. Shaw, that last year
Norfolk Southern made $3.3 billion in profits?
Mr. Shaw. Yes, sir. Last year we invested over a billion
dollars in safety, and last year, our accident rate, our number
of accidents was the lowest it had been in the last 10 years.
Our safety stats, Senator, continue to improve. I am committed
to making Norfolk Southern's safety culture the best in the
industry.
Senator Markey. Well, you are not having a good month. You
are not having a good month. It seems like every week there is
another accident that Norfolk Southern is a part of in our
Country. So you may think you have put in enough. The facts are
saying just the opposite in terms of what is happening.
What I am hearing from you is just this great confidence
that you have in your system. I will tell you this, Mr. Shaw.
Overconfidence breeds complacency, and complacency breed
disaster. That disaster has hit East Palestine, and it is
hitting community after community across this Country. Not just
Norfolk Southern, but the rail industry in general that has
reduced its work force by one-third over the last 10 years. In
that reduction in work force, there is a reduction in the
measure of safety that has to be built in in order to guarantee
that people avoid these kinds of catastrophes.
Let me ask you, Mr. Shaw, about a decision that your
company has made. You have chosen an arbitrary one-mile radius
from the disaster site for people to qualify for assistance,
meaning some families who breathe the same air, drink the same
water, are not getting the same help. Mr. Shaw, will you commit
to providing financial compensation to all affected people,
including those who live outside your arbitrarily chosen one-
mile radius around the derailment site?
Mr. Shaw. Senator, we have made our Family Assistance
Center and payments available to folks within the zip code,
within Darlington Township. We have committed----
Senator Markey. Will you commit to helping those people
outside of the one-mile radius? That is my question, yes or no.
Mr. Shaw. Senator, we already are.
Senator Markey. You already are?
Mr. Shaw. Yes, sir.
Senator Markey. All right. Well, that is not clear. Will
you commit to compensating affected homeowners for their
diminished property values?
Mr. Shaw. Senator, I am committing to do what is right.
Senator Markey. Well, what is right is a family that had a
home worth $100,000 that is now worth $50,000 will probably
never be able to sell that home for $100,000 again. Will you
compensate that family for that loss?
Mr. Shaw. Senator, I am committed to do what is right.
Senator Markey. That is the right thing to do. These are
the people who are innocent victims, Mr. Shaw. These people
were just there at home and all of a sudden their small
businesses, their homes are forever going to have been
diminished in value. Norfolk Southern owes these people. It is
an accident that is basically under the responsibility of
Norfolk Southern, not these families.
When you say ``do the right thing,'' will you, again,
compensate these families for their diminished lost property
value, for homes and small businesses?
Mr. Shaw. Senator, we have already committed $21 million,
and that is a down payment.
Senator Markey. That is a down payment. Will you commit to
ensuring that these families, these innocent families, do not
lose their life savings and their homes and small businesses?
The right thing to do is say, yes, we will.
Mr. Shaw. Senator, I am committed to doing what is right
for the community. We are going to be there as long as it
takes.
Senator Markey. What is right for the community will then
be balanced, which is what we can see from your stock buybacks,
by what is right for Norfolk Southern. That is going to be to
sue, to fight, to resist full compensation for these families.
That is the pattern we have seen over the last 10 years and
your one-third reduction in work force with its natural
concomitant reduction in safety.
We are not hearing the right things today. These families
want to know long-term, are they just going to be left behind.
Once the cameras move on, once the national attention dies
down, where will these families be? I think they are going to
be in the crosshairs of the accountants of Norfolk Southern
saying, we are not going to pay full compensation. That is why
we are going to stay on this case until everyone in East
Palestine is given the justice which they deserve.
Senator Capito.
[Presiding.] Senator Padilla is up next.
By way of explanation, we are in the middle of two votes.
That is why we are sort of ping ponging a little bit. Sorry for
the disruptions.
Senator Padilla. Thank you, Madam Chair.
I understand while I stepped away for the votes you just
referenced, there have been additional questions about the
stock buybacks, which I may have some followup on, as well as
followup to the precision scheduled railroading that I know
Senator Sanders and Senator Graham, among others, have raised.
Let me actually ask a question of Ms. Shore. In the spirit
of holding polluters accountable, we know what brings us here
today are the incidents, plural now, in East Palestine.
We can all agree that we need to hold polluters
accountable. I have strong feelings about this personally,
having dealt with the Federal Government failing to hold
companies accountable for environmental crimes and leaving
communities holding the bag.
Aside from the loosening of regulations, which we need to
discuss and debate, part of the conversation for the rail
incident in East Palestine, I want to bring attention to a case
in my hometown of Los Angeles.
Under the Trump Administration, the EPA, your predecessors,
the agency you are part of leading, along with the Department
of Justice under the Trump Administration, supported a
bankruptcy plan to let the corporate polluter known as XCIDE
evade criminal liability and responsibility to clean up decades
of toxic dumping and, as a result, left California taxpayers on
the hook for the largest environmental cleanup in our State's
history.
My question, Ms. Shore, is how will the EPA ensure that
what happened during the Trump Administration, what they
inflicted on Los Angeles communities surrounding the XCIDE
plant, is not repeated in East Palestine?
Ms. Shore. Thank you, Senator Padilla.
On February 21st, EPA issued a Unilateral Administrative
Order, it is one of the most powerful enforcement tools the
agency has under the CERCLA, the Comprehensive Environmental
Recovery, Compensation, and Liability Act, that will hold
Norfolk Southern accountable to pay for all the costs of the
cleanup and restoration in East Palestine.
If the company doesn't comply with EPA's order, then EPA
can step in, continue the work so there is no disruption in the
essential cleanup, and assess three times the cost as
penalties. It is a tool that EPA has effectively used in the
past and we will be vigorous about holding the company
accountable.
Senator Padilla. Thank you. Again, we saw what I would
consider a worst case study, not a best-case study, when these
settlements completely leave polluters off the hook for the
damage they have taken. That was a prior Administration policy
that changed under the current Administration, working to embed
the environmental justice lent as well, not just at EPA, but
within the Department of Justice and hope to make it permanent.
I want to come back to Mr. Shaw for a few questions as it
pertains to your work force, inspections and maintenance. You
recently announced that Norfolk Southern would be deploying
more wayside detection and hotbox detector technology as part
of the safety plan. I apologize if this is a little bit
redundant with the prior questions that have come up during the
hearing, but I think I have some specifics I want to get to.
From what I understand, the company has also reduced its
work force by nearly 40 percent since 2015. According to your
own data reported to the Surface Transportation Board, the
number of employees assigned to maintenance of equipment and
stores has decreased by 60 percent over the past decade. Your
data.
Given what has happened, is Norfolk Southern now going to
hire the additional signal workers necessary to maintain and
inspect the system you are relying on to improve safety?
Mr. Shaw. Yes, Senator, thank you for that question.
The NTSB report was very clear that our hotbox detectors
were working as designed. We have taken it upon ourselves to
install more hotbox detectors as needed.
Senator, I became CEO of Norfolk Southern 10 months ago.
Senator, ever since then, we have been on a hiring spree. We
are aggressively hiring employees. Right now, our pipeline of
conductor trainees is amongst the highest in our history. I am
not going to stop.
Senator Padilla. Be specific. You say you are on a hiring
spree. I want to be specific to the signal workers necessary to
maintain and inspect the systems.
Mr. Shaw. Senator, if we need to hire more signal workers
to maintain and inspect the signals, we will absolutely do
that.
Senator Padilla. Let me ask you this question. I do not
know if you have worked the line or at least walked the line,
but how many sensors or length of track are assigned to each
worker?
Mr. Shaw. Senator, I do not have that specific information.
Senator Padilla. Do you know if workers are specifically
dedicated to the inspection and maintenance of these
technologies, or if it is just one in a long list of
responsibilities they may have in the course of a day?
Mr. Shaw. Senator, I do not know the specifics of that. I
am happy to get that information to you.
Senator Padilla. Let me tell you why I asked. According to
the AFL-CIO's Transportation Trades Department, the amount of
time car men have to inspect each car in a train has been
reduced by two-thirds, from 3 minutes to now just 60 seconds
per car, 60 seconds.
Do you know how long it takes to walk the perimeter of a
single car? Do you think 60 seconds is enough to not just walk
the perimeter of that train car but does that leave enough time
for an actual, thorough inspection? I can not imagine this
gives us the confidence that car men have the time to conduct
that thorough inspection to identify or find any potential
defects before the cars are sent back into service.
I know the initial reviews and studies have said the
sensors weren't working as you mentioned, but the investigation
is not complete. NTSB is still doing some followup work.
Sorry to drill down on a specific, but these specifics
matter. It is not just the technologies, it is the work force
necessary to install, to maintain and to ensure they are
properly functioning. To me it just falls into the greater
pattern we have seen over the past decade, work force overall
reducing, corporate compensation and stock buybacks on the
upswing when the work force that keeps the trains running and
running safely is what is being compromised.
I know my time is up. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Senator Capito. Senator Stabenow.
Senator Stabenow. Thank you very much, Madam Chair.
Thank you to everyone for being here. This is obviously
incredibly serious.
Mr. Shaw, Norfolk Southern's lack of transparent
communication with impacted States, I am specifically thinking
of Michigan now, during the cleanup process concerns me. Do you
think it was acceptable that the company started moving toxic
waste from East Palestine to Michigan without notifying
Michigan officials? Michigan officials were not notified.
Mr. Shaw. Senator, working with the EPA, we were taking
product to facilities that were specifically designed to handle
this type of material.
Senator Stabenow. Michigan officials, the Governor, myself,
Senator Peters, and the Michigan EPA were not notified before
that happened. Let me must say that is why I am really glad the
EPA is now overseeing this process going forward because that
is not acceptable to us in Michigan.
Administrator Shore, moving forward, can I count on you and
the EPA to work with us during the cleanup process, so we can
make sure Michigan families are not put in danger?
Ms. Shore. Senator Stabenow, you certainly can. The
Administrative Order that we issued that went into effect fully
on February 27th requires Norfolk Southern to notify our co-
regulators, in your case Michigan Eagle, of shipments to the
State.
As they continue to ship waste, EPA will take the
additional step of keeping you and congressional staff in the
State informed.
Senator Stabenow. Thank you so much, because that did not
happen at the beginning. I appreciate now with EPA oversight
that this will be happening, because it was very concerning to
people in Michigan as well as elected officials.
I have a quote from Norfolk Southern: ``We are going to
learn from this terrible accident and work with regulators and
elected officials to improve railroad safety.''
Mr. Shaw, we certainly need to do that. We certainly need
to strengthen safety standards, especially now that we have an
Administration that supports strong standards instead of
working to gut them like the last Administration did. We are
now in a good spot to be able to move forward. We have
bipartisan legislation to do that.
Here is my question. When you tell us the company is ready
to learn from this, I would feel better if this wasn't the 20th
time since 2015 the company has had a derailment resulting in a
chemical release. It is my understanding that the 21st incident
almost happened in Van Buren Township, in Michigan, just 2
weeks after East Palestine.
My question is, great, that you say you are going to learn
from number 20. What did you learn from number 19? What did you
learn from number 1, number 5, number 10, or number 15? What
safety measures have you implemented since this was the 20th
time since 2015 that there had been a derailment resulting in a
chemical release?
Mr. Shaw. Senator, I think that is the right thing to focus
on. I am focused on it too. We invest over a billion dollars a
year in safety. You have seen over time the number of
derailments and hazardous material releases and personal
injuries decline. We will continue to get better. I am
committed to creating the best safety culture in the industry.
Just this week, we announced several new initiatives to
enhance safety which included more hotbox detectors across our
network, partnering with other railroads to share best
practices on hotbox detector technology.
We are also putting up a machine visioning portal that can
catch things that the human eye can't, developed in partnership
with Georgia Tech. There are a number of different areas in
which we are investing in safety.
I am very confident in the NTSB process, which is focused
right now on a wheel bearing that failed and noted that the
Norfolk Southern crew, the hotbox detectors, and the track were
all operating as appropriate. I am not waiting for the full
response. You are seeing action right now.
Senator Stabenow. I appreciate that. I think it is probably
hard for families and businesses in East Palestine to hear
this, though, when if that had been done in response to number
18 in the derailments, or number 15, or number 4, or any of
those, we wouldn't have had number 20, which is what is
happening to the community right now. My heart goes out to them
and what they are having to deal with.
Frankly, having different but similar situations with toxic
substances in Michigan and so on, this is going to take a long
time for them to be able to recover.
This is number 20. I do not want number 21 in Michigan or
any place else, for that matter. We talked a lot about the
investments you are looking at making in the community which
you need to do, legally, morally, ethically, in every which
way.
I also hope you are taking another look at stock buybacks
of the future. I know you have done $6.5 billion already in the
last 2 years and there was $7.5 billion supposedly coming up.
It would be a better use of that money if, in fact, you were
investing in aggressive, responsible safety measures and making
this community and any other community whole.
Thank you.
Senator Carper.
[Presiding.] Thank you, Senator Stabenow.
I have a couple questions. Then Senator Capito is going to
ask some questions. Then we will probably go to a closing
statement.
Last August, the EPA proposed, this will be a question for
Administrator Shore and for Mr. Shaw, for both of you, last
August EPA proposed to amend its regulations for the Risk
Management Program, as you probably know, which is an important
program to help businesses avoid and address hazardous chemical
accidents.
EPA's proposed changes would improve the Accident
Prevention Program, enhance emergency preparedness and increase
public availability of chemical hazard information. The goals
of these changes are to improve public awareness, to improve
preparedness, and to improve safety.
However, the Association of American Railroads, I am told,
of which Norfolk Southern is a member, submitted comments to
EPA expressing concern about the proposed changes. Those
comments assert that the safety requirements that EPA proposed
would ``have limited use.''
Let me ask Administrator Shore, can you explain how the
Risk Management Program and EPA's recent proposed changes will
help protect the health and safety of first responders and the
local community? Then I will turn to Mr. Shaw. Administrator
Shore, can you explain how the Risk Management Program and
EPA's recent proposed changes will help protect the health and
safety of first responders and the local community?
Ms. Shore. Thank you, Chairman Carper.
Certainly accident prevention is a top priority at EPA. The
Risk Management Program rule has been successful in reducing
the frequency of accidental releases at regulated facilities.
As I understand it, it doesn't pertain to rail transport. So
there is work we can do there to try to protect first
responders who are responding to derailments and releases
resulting from rail accidents.
Senator Carper. Mr. Shaw, does Norfolk Southern oppose
EPA's proposed changes to the Risk Management Program to
enhance our preparedness for chemical accidents?
Mr. Shaw. Senator, I apologize. I am not familiar with that
program. I am happy to review the legislation or the program
and discuss it with you further.
I have a sincere appreciation for the first responders from
Ohio and Pennsylvania, two of whom are on this panel, and West
Virginia, who ran to the scene. As a result, we just announced
yesterday a regional first responder training center that will
support the first responders of Ohio, Pennsylvania, and West
Virginia.
Every year we train approximately 5,000 first responders,
so we are committed.
Senator Carper. Is that in the States in which you operate?
Mr. Shaw. Yes, sir.
Senator Carper. OK. Last question, this is really a
question for all of you. Mr. Brewer, I will start with you but
the question is for all witnesses.
My colleagues, including certainly the Ranking Member,
always that in adversity lies opportunity. That is Einstein, a
pretty smart guy. Most people remember Einstein for saying the
definition of insanity is to do the same thing over and over
again and expect a different result. That might be pertinent
here today as well.
I believe that in adversity lies opportunity. That is the
way I approach life and the way I think a lot of us approach
life.
An environmental tragedy creates, not just tragedy and
heartbreak, real heartache for a lot of people, but it also
creates some opportunity for us to examine not only what went
wrong on the heels of this derailment but also to look at some
of the moments when things went right.
I am going to ask each of you, Mr. Brewer, I want to start
with you, to just very briefly speak to something you believe
has gone well while working together, across many entities, to
navigate in response to this environmental disaster.
Can you give us an example or two of what you thought went
particularly well?
Mr. Brewer. Sure. I think relationships we had with
everyone up here, and the other responders, was positive.
Initially, we had good relationships and good communications,
as I said, with the boots on the ground. It may not be that way
whenever the boss has gone on scene and I said that. As Mr.
Shaw said, training, collaborative training from the railroads,
I think something positive will come out of this.
Senator Carper. Good.
Mr. Harrison, the same question. Share with us something
you think has gone well and needs to be lifted up.
Mr. Harrison. For ORSANCO, the success of our partnership
investment in planning, building the Organic Detection System,
training our staff, this was not a unique response. We get
several hundred reports of potential spills a year from the
National Response Center.
So we have been doing this for decades. Having the ability
to put that in place I think has been very positive and also
just to demonstrate how our team, our system, and our
partnership works.
Senator Carper. Thank you. Ms. Vogel, same question,
please.
Ms. Vogel. Chairman, the Mayor of East Palestine and the
Fire Chief have really done just an exceptional job
representing their community, protecting their community, and
connecting their community with people who can provide
scientific answers.
They have done such an incredible job refuting
misinformation that is out there and getting people connected
with the scientists either at Ohio EPA or U.S. EPA. I do think
that is an example of something that has gone very well.
Senator Carper. All right, good. Thank you.
Ms. Shore.
Ms. Shore. Chairman Carper, I think what has been
remarkable, though it should be standard, about the response to
this disaster in East Palestine is the way local, State, and
Federal agencies have worked collaboratively together, that it
has not been about politics but about people.
You have seen Democrats standing with Republicans.
President Biden was on the phone to Governor DeWine saying,
whatever Federal resources are needed, they will be there for
you. He did the same with Governor Shapiro of Pennsylvania.
You saw Administrator Regan standing to announce the Order
with Governor DeWine and Governor Shapiro, with Congressman
Bill Johnson and Congressman Deluzio, and so many others.
I think the collaboration focused on getting this cleaned
up has been quite remarkable.
Senator Carper. Thank you for that.
Mr. Shaw, same question, please.
Mr. Shaw. Thank you for that question, Senator.
I have been really clear that I am focused on the
environmental cleanup and helping East Palestine thrive.
The things that have gone really well have been the
coordination and the collaboration that we received from the
folks at this table. I have made a personal commitment to
Secretary Buttigieg, Governor DeWine, Mayor Conaway, Fire Chief
Drabick, Governor Shapiro, and Administrator Regan that we are
going to do everything it takes.
I have a genuine affection for the folks of East Palestine,
which I know several of my peers on this panel do as well. When
you walk around town, you are starting to see yard signs pop
up. The yard signs say, ``We are East Palestine.'' It goes on
to say, ``Welcome to America's greatest comeback story.''
Senator, I want to make sure that that happens.
Senator Carper. We have a great opportunity here, if we can
collaborate and work together, to lift up, not just to lift up,
not just to address the immediate problems and crisis, but
actually to empower the people of East Palestine and the
communities around them, to empower them. I think that is a
good thing that can come out of this.
Senator Capito, thanks so much for your work on this.
Senator Capito. Thank you.
In my opening statement I said we need to find out what
went right and what went wrong. I really appreciate the
comments of what went right.
I am going back to the other side. I am still very
disturbed about the communication issue. We have seen it
already in the panel.
Ms. Vogel said initially there were some, you had the need
to refute poor information and there were some communication
gaps. Mr. Brewer has said there were some communication gaps at
least as far as one car to five cars and maybe some other
things. I understand in the haze of what was going on at the
very beginning, some of that is going to occur.
Senator Stabenow said she did not know, and her Governor
did not know that cars were being brought to Michigan carrying
hazardous materials. It seems even though the EPA has to Okay
where Mr. Shaw and Norfolk Southern take these materials, who
is supposed to do it? Ms. Shore said that Mr. Shaw was supposed
to. It seems to me it would be a shared responsibility.
All I am getting back to is if you are sitting here in East
Palestine or Beaver County, Pennsylvania, you are seeing this
huge pile of hazardous materials and you are smelling it.
I am coming from this as being from the community of
Charleston, West Virginia, that had a chemical spill in the
early 2000's that everyone told us it was safe to drink but it
still smelled. You just lose your trust in what people are
telling you. This is what the neighborhoods and the surrounding
areas are doing.
When I asked the question, where is this material going,
both Ms. Shore and Mr. Shaw said, it is going somewhere but we
do not know where. What does that do to trust? I do not know.
Are the trucks moving or not? Were they stopped in Michigan or
not? Why were they stopped in Michigan?
All these questions. Then the people still living there
have to look, smell, and fear.
I think we just need to get to transparency of where this
material is going, how long it is going to take it to get out,
how deep does it have to go. All these questions that people
are asking, because they want this over.
That is what you are trying to do, trying to get it over
and make it safe.
So as we go to lessons learned on the communication, I
would just hope in the after-report we know is going to be
generated that this is really a key part of what everybody
looks at from all the different respondents, both from Norfolk
Southern all the way to the people right there. Do you know
what is burning, do you have the right equipment, do you have
the right firefighting equipment, because chemical fires are
different that other kinds of fires. I do not need to tell you
your business but you know all that.
I am still very concerned about the communication aspects.
I know Governor DeWine has been right there, front and center.
I want to thank him for that, and you all too. That is my
comment.
My question is for Mr. Harrison at ORSANCO. The reason I am
interested in this is because that Ohio River feeds a lot of
our water systems in West Virginia. What is coming down through
there is so critically important. ORSANCO does a great job. I
know you did multiple testings.
Why were you uniquely positioned to respond as well as you
did? Your information was coming out quickly, your tests were
coming out quickly. My understanding is your tests and Ohio's
tests were coming out much more quickly than the EPA's tests.
Is there truth to that? Why can you come and respond as quickly
as this?
Mr. Harrison. Thank you, Senator, for that question and
confidence in ORSANCO. I appreciate that.
We have been working to protect the Ohio River as a
drinking water and industrial water supply for 75 years.
Through our preparations, I have a great team of 22
professionals and our partnerships, we have been doing this for
decades.
As we worked with the drinking water utilities, we have a
partner, Greater Cincinnati Water Works, that ran companion
testing with us. So we had results we could put on our website
that went through proper QAQC very quickly. We had the
encouragement of Governor DeWine and Director Vogel to get that
up as soon as possible so we have been doing that.
We have been able to show a map of where the sampling is
occurring, and we have been able to update that as we get new
results from Greater Cincinnati Water Works. Then we also have
our screening data.
This is something that we prepare for. We work closely with
our thirty drinking water utilities, and our State agencies.
Although this is certainly a challenge, we respond and work
through numerous spills. This is through preparation.
Senator Capito. Does anybody want to comment on the
communication tirade I just had? Are there ways to improve that
or am I over-exaggerating?
I am just looking at it from the eyes of a homeowner
sitting in East Palestine seeing this mess in front of them and
trying to figure out, when can I make sure that I can bathe my
child in the water and feel it is 100 percent safe.
Do you all have any suggestions on how to make
communications better, quicker, faster and more accurate? If
you leave a gap, you see what happens in the gap. Ms. Vogel,
did you have a suggestion?
Ms. Vogel. Senator, I can comment on one thing that
Governor DeWine began doing about 2 weeks ago, which is putting
out a daily email and posting on the website, or a press
release. It goes out daily and contains all of the facts you
are talking about, to say where exactly the waste is going, how
much is going offsite, what sampling data is back, what test
results are back, exactly to your point to make sure that we
are providing good information on a daily basis.
Senator Capito. Mr. Shaw?
Mr. Shaw. Senator, similarly, we set up a website,
nsmakingitright.com, which has very similar information. It
also has updates on how to get in touch us, how to reach the
Family Assistance Center, and points folks to the EPA website
and testing data, and the Ohio EPA testing data.
I am asking for input from the citizens of East Palestine
every day on how to make that website better.
Senator Capito. Anybody else? Director Shore?
Ms. Shore. Ranking Member Capito, I just want to add that
under the Order, Norfolk Southern submitted a very
comprehensive work plan to the unified command late Monday
evening. It is being reviewed, and I have asked our team on the
ground to issue weekly notices of, here is the work plan for
the week; here is what you can expect to be done as residents;
here is what you may be seeing, or hearing or smelling, and
here is who to call if you have questions.
Going forward, we will have the weekly work plan available
so residents in the community know what to expect.
Senator Capito. I guess what I am gleaning from this, and
then I will stop, Mr. Chair, is maybe these daily progressions
of what is going on, try to start as close to day one as
possible so you do not have these gaps in communications,
misunderstandings, and all that.
I appreciate all of you coming. Thank you for what you are
doing for the great citizens of Ohio and Pennsylvania. We are
right in there, right in between. So we appreciate that. Thank
you.
Senator Carper. Like you said, Senator Capito, let me say
how much I appreciate your work on this. I want to thank your
staff. This has been very much a team effort.
I want to also thank the Majority staff as well. One is
sitting to my right, the other is sitting to my left, but they
are really a team. I am proud of that teamwork. We are stronger
together.
I want to ask a question of Mr. Shaw if I can. My staff
just handed me some information about the Norfolk Southern
train we heard about just a little bit ago today that derailed
in Calhoun County, Alabama. There were 30 train cars in the
train. All were empty, fortunately. The local sheriff reported
there are no injuries and no property damage. That is a good
news-bad news story.
I spent a lot of my life in the Navy and airplanes and
thought a lot about safety. My wife worked for Dupont for many
years. She was very much involved. It was a safety company, as
you may know. She thought a great deal about safety.
I might have this wrong but we had the disaster in East
Palestine around February 3d; we had Springfield, Ohio the
beginning of this month; Cleveland, Ohio, where one of your
employees' life was lost; and now the incident in Calhoun
County.
I understand the National Transportation Safety Board is
going to be examining the safety culture of Norfolk Southern.
You probably welcome that. If I were in your shoes, I would.
It is more than disconcerting. It is concerning. It is a
trend that is troubling to me and my guess is it is troubling
to you as well. I hope that it will get the kind of serious
attention it needs.
When I was walking into the hearing, I was asked by the
press, as I am sure Senator Capito was, what we hoped to
accomplish here. I mentioned I had several questions that I
want to see answered.
One of those was, what went wrong? How did this all happen
in East Palestine? How did it happen? What went wrong? What are
we doing to help the families whose lives have been upended in
any number of ways?
The other question that I mentioned coming into the hearing
was how can we reduce the likelihood that similar disasters
like this will happen again in Ohio, or Pennsylvania, or
Delaware, or West Virginia? How can we reduce that?
I have said for everything I do, I know I can do better.
Everything I do, I know I can do better. I think that is true
of us all. I could go back to the Constitution of our country
and the Preamble of the Constitution says, ``We the people of
the United States in order to form a more perfect Union.'' It
doesn't say to form a perfect Union, it says a more perfect
Union.
The expectation all those years ago and still today is for
us to do better as we go forward.
I have a printed statement here, I am going to read this as
well, and then and close with one more comment straight from my
heart.
In closing, I want to thank our witnesses for your time and
testimony today. I want to thank our colleagues who came and
testified before us today and those that are working in a
bipartisan way on legislation to help address these concerns.
I especially want to thank the Ranking Member for what has
truly been a bipartisan hearing. I think folks, people around
the Country think we never work together here, we do not
accomplish anything, we do not cooperate on anything. They
would be pleasantly surprised if they could be in this room
with us most of the year. That is the way we work together and
we get a lot done.
Today's hearing provided some much-needed answers for the
American people to learn more about what happened in the days
and weeks after the Norfolk Southern train derailment and
subsequent release of chemicals.
We also learned that EPA and its State partners were on the
ground within hours and are still there today. We heard from
local officials that Norfolk Southern poorly communicated with
them initially and that created mistrust in the community, at
least initially.
One of the things I am concerned about, I am not a big fan,
as I said, Mr. Shaw, of yes or no answers. That is not usually
my style. I didn't think we heard as many unequivocal yeses as
I might like to have. We might want to revisit that at another
time.
This doesn't help to alleviate the committee's mistrust,
but I am relieved to hear the testimony regarding the safety of
air and water and the attentiveness of Federal, State and local
responders. I hope the community feels they have gotten some
answers today.
I will say this again, we stand with the people of East
Palestine and surrounding communities. I know I speak for
Senator Capito, I commit to hold Norfolk Southern's feet to the
fire to make sure this community is made whole.
There is clearly a lot more to discuss with respect to
safety for rail and hazardous materials. I expect the Commerce
Committee will pursue these questions in the next few days in
their own hearing on this topic.
I think it was Bill Gates who once said, ``It is fine to
celebrate success but it is more important to heed the lessons
of failure.'' It is fine to celebrate the success, but it is
also important to heed the lessons of failure.
In this circumstance, I believe we must heed the lessons we
learned today about this disaster. American lives and
livelihoods depend on that. If we are smart, we will put our
differences aside and work together to support the impacted
communities and collaborate on policies that will ensure that
an accident like this doesn't happen again.
Before we address that, I need to do a little housekeeping.
I ask unanimous consent to submit into the record some
materials related to today's hearing that include a letter from
the Governor of Pennsylvania, who I talked with over the
weekend. I referenced that letter earlier, and articles,
independent analyses and other materials related to the
accident.
Hearing no objections, so ordered.
[The referenced information follows:]
[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Senator Carper. Senators are going to be allowed to submit
written questions, we call them QFRs, questions for the record,
through the close of business on Thursday, March 23d. We will
compile those questions and send them to our witnesses, to all
of you, and we will ask to reply by Thursday, April 6th.
The last thing I want to say is my mother was a deeply
religious woman. She would drag my sister and me to church in
West Virginia, where we were born, drag us to church every
Sunday morning, every Sunday night, every Wednesday night, and
every Thursday night. She wanted to make sure we understood the
difference between right and wrong.
We embraced Matthew 24, the least of these, when I was
hungry did you feed me, when I was naked, on and on. She was
really big on the Golden Rule. She never used the word default,
when you are not sure what to do, default to the Golden Rule.
That is what I do. You can never go wrong.
It is a choice like this, we have to just put ourselves in
the shoes of the people in East Palestine and other places
around the Country when they are similarly scared and have
their lives changed, their livelihoods diminished, and the
value of their homes diminished.
We just have to put ourselves in the shoes of those people
and do it over and over and over and over again. If we do that,
at the end of the day, we will have done our jobs and actually
done the right thing which we talked about here quite a bit.
Last thing, I used the word empower earlier. One of the
things I say a whole lot is if you give a person a fish, you
feed them for a day. If you teach a person to fish, they can
feed themselves for a lifetime.
I always thought that was in the Bible. I have quoted it a
million times. I did it about a year ago when I was giving a
speech. After it was over, a preacher came up to me and said,
Senator, that is not in the Bible. I said, well, it should be,
or it ought to be.
In addition to making sure people have a place to live, we
cleanup the water and everything, the idea of empowering people
to help themselves, that is what people want. They want to be
empowered. We all have a hand in doing that. I pledge that that
is going to be part of our focus on this committee going
forward.
To the guy who used to ride the train a lot, Albert
Einstein, who used to ride the train a lot in the northeast
corridor 100 years ago, again, he did say more than a few
times, in adversity lies opportunity. Lots of adversity here,
lots of adversity here, but we are not without opportunity as
well.
I think with your help and the folks that you represent we
are going to come close to realizing that opportunity. If we
do, the people in these communities that have been more than
disadvantaged, really subjected to a terrible episode in their
lives, but at the end of the day I hope they will say, they
must have read the Golden Rule somewhere because they have come
through for us.
With that, I already mentioned questions for the record, it
is a wrap. We are done. Thank you very much. There is a lot
more to be done. Thank you for your participation today.
[Whereupon, at 1:04 p.m., the hearing was adjourned.]
[all]