[Senate Hearing 118-97]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]
S. Hrg. 118-97
ECONOMIC CHALLENGES AND
OPPORTUNITIES FOR
OLDER AMERICANS
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HEARING
BEFORE THE
SPECIAL COMMITTEE ON AGING
UNITED STATES SENATE
ONE HUNDRED EIGHTEENTH CONGRESS
FIRST SESSION
__________
INDIANAPOLIS, INDIANA
__________
AUGUST 22, 2023
__________
Serial No. 118-07
Printed for the use of the Special Committee on Aging
[GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Available via the World Wide Web: http://www.govinfo.gov
__________
U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE
53-321 PDF WASHINGTON : 2023
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SPECIAL COMMITTEE ON AGING
ROBERT P. CASEY, JR., Pennsylvania, Chairman
KIRSTEN E. GILLIBRAND, New York MIKE BRAUN, Indiana
RICHARD BLUMENTHAL, Connecticut TIM SCOTT, South Carolina
ELIZABETH WARREN, Massachusetts MARCO RUBIO, Florida
MARK KELLY, Arizona RICK SCOTT, Florida
RAPHAEL WARNOCK, Georgia J.D. VANCE, Ohio
JOHN FETTERMAN, Pennsylvania PETE RICKETTS, Nebraska
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Elizabeth Letter, Majority Staff Director
Matthew Sommer, Minority Staff Director
C O N T E N T S
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Page
Opening Statement of Senator Mike Braun, Ranking Member.......... 1
PANEL OF WITNESSES
Toby Deaton, Vice President, Indiana Fraternal Order of Police,
Chief Deputy Sheriff, Scott County, Indiana.................... 4
Tom McKinney, President and Owner, McKinney Farms, Inc., Kempton,
Indiana........................................................ 7
Wesley Snyder, Multi-Brand Franchise Owner, Fishers, Indiana..... 10
Valerie A. Jones, Assistant to the Philanthropist, St. Vincent de
Paul, Indianapolis, Indiana.................................... 12
APPENDIX
Prepared Witness Statements
Toby Deaton, Vice President, Indiana Fraternal Order of Police,
Chief Deputy Sheriff, Scott County, Indiana.................... 29
Tom McKinney, President and Owner, McKinney Farms, Inc., Kempton,
Indiana........................................................ 32
Wesley Snyder, Multi-Brand Franchise Owner, Fishers, Indiana..... 34
Valerie A. Jones, Assistant to the Philanthropist, St. Vincent de
Paul, Indianapolis, Indiana.................................... 44
ECONOMIC CHALLENGES AND
OPPORTUNITIES FOR
OLDER AMERICANS
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Tuesday, August 22, 2023
U.S. Senate
Special Committee on Aging
Washington, D.C.
The Committee met, pursuant to notice, at 2:00 p.m., in the
Indiana War Memorial Auditorium, 55 East Michigan Street,
Indianapolis, Indiana, Hon. Mike Braun, Ranking Member of the
Committee, presiding.
Present: Senator Braun
OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR
MIKE BRAUN, RANKING MEMBER
Senator Braun. This hearing is called to order. Welcome to
the hearing. I am the Ranking Member of the Aging Committee. I
want to tell you a little story about how I got onto it. It was
shortly after I got elected, and Senator Tim Scott, who is
running for President, busy, I think, out in Iowa right now,
called me, and it is a committee that you cannot legislate
through, but I thought, no legislation, you are recruiting
someone to be on it, and you are talking to a freshman Senator.
Well, let me think about it.
When he told me what you can do with it, it has been,
actually, the Committee that is probably been most interesting
because we can pick any topic. Generally, it has got to be
related to aging, and we all age, so I have really enjoyed it.
Now the Ranking Member, Senator Casey from Pennsylvania, is
the Chairman, and we've talked about all kinds of issues. Then,
that discussion can lead to legislation, and we always get a
varied opinion on the subject matter.
Older Americans play such a critical role throughout the
economy. Business and law enforcement, on the family farms, and
even now some are considering maybe coming out of retirement,
so it has gotten to be a different dynamic out there.
A report from a committee found earlier this year that 43
percent of Americans retired--and I mentioned it just a moment
ago--are thinking about coming out of retirement, and that is
probably not the plan that everybody was looking to happen. We
worked so hard to get there, and then when you have to consider
that it is just a dynamic, I think most would rather see being
a little different.
Prices have been rising. A lot of times when you try to
enterprise through government it is how you pay for it. The
printing press, remember, is in the basement with the Fed, and
a lot of what was done, especially post-COVID, did not have a
real pay-for. I have been one of the few voices in D.C. I am on
the Budget Committee, and it is like maybe talking to the side
of my barn back home sometimes. We have got to get better at
that. That kind of spending may feel good in the short run, but
we know it is not a long-term plan because look at the results,
so many Americans thinking about coming out of retirement.
Police officers often retire from careers, and I want to
bring this subject up, and it concerns WEP and GPO, that can
cut their Social Security by nearly 60 percent, just because
they have a separate earned pension. There is a bill in D.C.
currently that I have been looking at, and due to that inherent
inequity I am going to get on that bill as a sponsor, and if we
can find a bona fide pay-for, which I have been able to do
through my team on more legislation than almost any Republican
Senator on issues like education, health care, agriculture, I
think this is something that makes sense, and I am going to
work hard when I get back to where we get an honest pay-for and
we do not borrow the money to do it.
At the same time rising interest rates are squeezing any
retirement funds. In terms of expenses, you may get a little
better return on your investment portfolio, but then if you
need to borrow any money, and it is also part and parcel of how
we are having to react to tame inflation, it gets very
complicated.
Our office weighed in on ESG--environment, social, and
governance--and I do not care what you say you can do with an
investment approach, the most important part should be the
return on investment, the numbers, and if you can do both at
the same time, that is fine. It should be ancillary, not
primary.
When older Americans are productive, socially connected,
gainfully employed, are secure in their retirements, we are all
better off. We are all going to be there someday. The good news
is there are still economic opportunities for older Americans.
Many are reinventing their retirements, deciding to stay active
and split time between flexible work, leisure, and family
activities. Older Americans help employers and communities and
benefit in that process.
Like an 82-year-old grandma who went back to work as a
baker in Georgia. She was recruited while shopping. For
employers facing labor shortages, older Americans can still
fill those gaps.
A recent report showed that older workers will make up a
quarter of the workforce by 2031, and if we want to turn that
around we are going to have to do something about how, from the
bottom up, we reinvigorate the economy to where we can set more
aside for retirement and still be gainfully employed along the
way before you get there, and my thinking is for 40 or 50 years
we have been moving toward a stronger presence from our Federal
Government. It would be different if we were knocking it out of
the park, and currently, tragically, not only for older
Americans but younger Americans, we are running the biggest
business in the world, borrowing nearly $2 trillion a year.
Think about the Greatest Generation. They grew up in the
Depression, fought the World War, came back, paid off that
highest debt that we had ever been encumbered by, and built the
interstate highway system. Where has that gone? We need to get
back to it. If we do, and we can, I think the solutions will be
mostly crafted where you do have to live within your means,
where you do not have the printing press in the basement, or
the credit card gets renewed regardless of your behavior.
Our goal should be collectively, through all levels of
government, to untap that potential, supporting dignified work
and retirements, not holding back, being entrepreneurial, at
least don't keep doing the same thing that has taken us to a
place where I think there is going to be reconciliation the
hard way, not to where we proactively fix it.
With that I am going to introduce all the witnesses that
have been so gracious to come here today. We will start with
Toby Deaton. Toby Deaton is Vice President of the Indiana FOP
and Chief Deputy Sheriff for Scott County. He is a graduate of
IU and a dedicated law enforcement officer. He has championed
better pensions and more support for the families of officers
killed in the line of duty. He also has extensive experience
with Social Security's impact on law enforcement officers.
Thank you for testifying today.
Tom McKinney. We have known one another for some time. I
was involved in agriculture before I got into government. You
are the President and Owner of McKinney Farms, along with law
enforcement, two of the more difficult jobs out there. After
attending Purdue, you chose to return to the family farm--I was
glad I did that when I came back to my hometown. I think there
is a lot to be gained from doing it--where he worked to grow
the operation. Tom's calling is to help feed our Nation and the
world. A Tipton County native, Tom has been married to his wife
Karen for 42 years and has three children and three
grandchildren. Thank you for coming in today.
Wes Snyder. Wes is a multi-unit and multi-brand franchise
owner across six states. He owns eight FASTSIGNS locations,
including in Indianapolis, as well as Pirtek, College Hunks
Hauling Junk and Moving--that is an interesting one--My Salon
Suite franchise locations. Sounds like a serial entrepreneur.
That is a good place to come from. Wes graduated from Purdue in
1995, with a degree in accounting, got married and moved to
Indy, and has been there ever since. He has two daughters and a
son-in-law. Thanks for coming here today.
Last but not least, Valerie Jones. Thank you for being
here. Valerie is an Assistant to the Philanthropist for St.
Vincent de Paul in Indianapolis. She works with software to
manage and organize donor files, keeping information on track,
and ensuring that it is properly set up. She is joined today by
Chris Green, Program Manager of Goodwill of Central and
Southern Indiana and its Senior Community Service Employment
Program, in which Ms. Jones is also a participant. Thank you
for being here today.
Well, for the rest of the time I am going to be putting
some questions out to you, and I think we will start with you,
Toby.
I am very concerned about the long-term fiscal health of
Social Security. I said earlier it is roughly nine years, and
we have been paying into that fund, employers and employees,
since the Depression, and actually, we have known this day is
coming for a long time. It is vital that we hold up our end of
the bargain for millions of Americans who expect Social
Security to be there for them, including law enforcement. I am
starting to think of WEP and GPO reducing benefits by up to 60
percent.
What kinds of sacrifices are Hoosiers that are police
officers, who have already sacrificed so much for the good of
the community, making because of WEP and GPO the way it is
currently constituted.
Mr. Deaton. First, good afternoon, Senator. Thank you for
taking the time to discuss this important issue.
We have many officers that are absolutely in a crisis, and
I want to use one example right off the bat. As an individual
that served for nearly 40 years, he lost his wife unexpectedly,
because of the GPO he was forced to sell his home. Basically,
if you receive a pension from another government side of work
you will not receive Social Security benefit, or at least a
very substantial one, and this problem is affecting a great
deal, between recruiting police officers to the current
allowing our folks that have served with dignity to continue on
in their later years.
Senator Braun. I am going to ask a question first and then
go to your testimony, because that, to me, these are the most
important questions we have got, and then it will have the
context of where your testimony is going to come from, so go
ahead and do that next.
Mr. Deaton. My testimony?
Senator Braun. Yes.
Mr. Deaton. Okay.
STATEMENT OF TOBY DEATON, VICE PRESIDENT, INDIANA
FRATERNAL ORDER OF POLICE, CHIEF DEPUTY
SHERIFF, SCOTT COUNTY, INDIANA
Mr. Deaton. Good afternoon, sir. On behalf of over 370,000
FOP members nationwide and nearly 17,000 in Indiana, I would
like to thank you for discussing this vital issue and the
negative impact of the Windfall Elimination Provision, or WEP,
and the Government Pension Offset, or GPO, has on our public
safety officer retirees. To be clear, this is our number one
legislative priority, and several groups are in attendance to
support fixing this problem. These include the Indiana Troopers
Association, and the International Association of Fire
Fighters. It is an especially important issue for our Nation's
public safety officers.
For this reason Senator, today I am asking you to co-
sponsor S. 597, the ``Social Security Fairness Act.'' The
Senate bill currently has 44 co-sponsors. The House companion
member, H.R. 82, has 289 co-sponsors, including Representatives
Frank Mrvan, Jim Banks, Rudy Yakym, and Andre Carson, so you
can see it is a bipartisan bill.
The FOP contends that this provision has a negative impact
on law enforcement and other public safety officials for
several reasons. First, law enforcement officers retire earlier
than many employees. Owing this to the physical demands of the
job, a law enforcement officer is likely to retire between the
ages of 45 and 60.
Second, after 20 or 25 years on the job, many law
enforcement officers are likely to begin second careers and
hold jobs that do pay into the Social Security system. Even
more officers are likely to ``moonlight,'' that is, hold second
or even third jobs throughout their law enforcement career in
order to augment their income.
This creates an unjust situation that too many of our
members find themselves in. They are entitled to a state or
local retirement benefit because they worked 20 or more years
keeping their streets and neighborhoods safe. They also worked
at these other jobs where they did pay into Social Security,
entitling them to the benefit as well.
However, because of the WEP, if their second career
resulted in less than 20 years of substantial earnings, upon
reaching the age at which they could be eligible to collect
Social Security they will discover that they lose 60 percent of
the benefit for which they were already taxed.
Actuarially speaking, I doubt many officers will live long
enough to ``break even''--that is, collect the money they paid
into the system--let alone receive any type of ``windfall.''
These men and women earned their state or local retirement
benefit as public employees, and they paid Social Security
taxes while employed in the private sector. How is this a
windfall?
Fairness, justice, and equality have always been important
words in this country. They are extremely important to my
organization. In fact, they were put in the FOP logo that I
wear around 108 years ago, so many people are passionate about
these issues because it is about fairness and inequality. As a
police officer, we know being financially wealthy is not an
option, but we never thought we would be penalized and treated
differently and financially harmed for serving our communities.
Let me be clear about this. What we are asking for is
simply what we have earned and nothing more. I have never met
anyone that after understanding this issue believes that this
is fair. In fact, most believe this goes against the
fundamental way of American life.
It should be noted that we do pay into our pension systems
as well, and many have negotiated this as part of a total
compensation package, only to discover that they are later
penalized.
Police officers love the communities we serve, but because
the pay is so low most of us do work other jobs as well. In
fact, as knowledge about the impact the WEP and GPO have on the
ability of officers to retire, it is hurting our recruiting
efforts. Our young people do not want to go into a career they
will be penalized due to secondary employment.
As a Nation, we are experiencing a massive recruitment and
retention crisis in law enforcement. We need to be doing
everything we can in order to make the profession of law
enforcement attractive to our young people. Repealing the WEP
and GPO will make many of our retirement and pension systems
appealing to the next generation.
Our members want Social Security to last, and while the WEP
is vital to our membership it is a small fraction of the
overall total Social Security conversation. The WEP affects
about 2.1 million people and roughly 18,000 Indiana residents.
The recent CBO estimated the cost of the WEP at $88 billion
over 10 years and the GPO at $107 billion during that same
time. While certainly a great deal of money, it is again what
we paid into the system. It is nothing more. It is what we
paid.
I contend if we are trying to maintain Social Security on
the backs of public servants then we have a much larger problem
as a society. We believe that this topic should be discussed on
its own merit and not part of the total Social Security
conversation.
The fact that some retired police officers are now having
to face purchasing medication or food is a travesty and should
be fixed immediately. Several of our members retired when they
thought they could sustain on the pension. We are all aware
that prices and inflation have weakened the dollar, and some do
not have a cost-of-living adjustment on the pension. The extra
money they earned from Social Security could allow them the
dignity they have earned.
The years on the job often give retired police officers
physical issues, but the mental horrors are just now beginning
to be discussed in society. When you add on the financial
strain this causes, many are left feeling hopeless.
I would like to compare this with other occupations that
have a 401K. Many people change companies or even careers over
a lifetime, and the 401K that they have travels with them with
no penalty. Companies have contributed to the 401K with money
that is never penalized. To be clear, we are not advocating for
that but pointing out the difference that public servants are
not treated fairly.
I would like to compare that again that the wage base limit
for 2022 was $147,000, and for 2023 was adjusted to $160,200,
so instead of raising this we are putting the burden on those
that have served our communities, often at a wage far below the
private sector. Our members are only asking for what they have
earned. They have earned this, and the communities are
suffering more now than ever.
We could use many examples and stories but for time
constraints and not wishing to expose publicly names, I will
use examples. However, these are real life situations for
people in Indiana.
_Example one: A police officer in a small northern Indiana
town should draw $1,514 a month but brings home $956.
_Example two: Is a mid-sized city in southern Indiana. He
was injured while on duty and had to go out on a medical
disability. He had an entire other career other than law
enforcement. He should earn over $2,300 a month, but now draws
around $1,800 a month. He did not plan to go out on a
disability, and he now is struggling with physical and
financial issues, and you mentioned those folks coming back to
work. This individual is trying to find work and is back
working now, despite his disability.
_Example three: Is a name I am going to mention. He is in
the audience. It is our FOP President, Bill Owensby. He retired
from Indianapolis Police Department, and like most he worked a
second job. He has earned $1,800 a month, but more than likely
was only going to draw about $1,200. He is still working his
numbers out. That is a pretty significant amount that he is
going to be penalized over his entire lifetime for serving in
the community.
I mentioned earlier that everyone believes this is wrong,
and I would like to offer evidence of that. Last year we had
305 co-sponsors in the House of Representatives to fix this
issue. Getting over 300 people to agree on anything in
Washington can almost be classified as a miracle, Senator. We
urge you to take up this legislation and help fix this
travesty.
Thank you for your time.
Senator Braun. As I said in my opening statement, I will
get on that bill and try to find a pay-for for it and get it
across the finish line.
Mr. Deaton. Thank you, sir.
Senator Braun. Tom, I am going to ask you this question
because these are the ones we compiled as being most important
and then follow-up with your opening statement.
The Biden Administration's environmental, social, and
governance, ESG, rule allows fiduciaries to invest according to
some political agenda instead of solely adhering to financial
factors. President Biden issued his first veto to reject my
bipartisan bill to challenge that rule. You have also helped us
understand how ESG can impact agriculture. What do you think
the most significant impact on agriculture would be if you are
pushing an agenda as opposed to the best return on investment?
Mr. McKinney. Thank you for having me here, Senator. My
kneejerk reaction is an undertow that does not make the
newspapers, but part of my testimony will be concerning the
emissions controls on our tractors. The over-the-road semitruck
drivers get high enough heat temperature to get rid of it, but
the fire trucks, police cruisers, tractors that idle, our semi
tractors, 40 percent of all service calls from the John Deere
dealers across the State, as well as the Case IH dealers--that
is four big dealers--are on emissions problems.
In talking to some of the fire truck drivers, they do not
get enough heat in their engines and so they are always under
maintenance repair, not always but required to maybe have an
extra vehicle.
A very small school corporation in Howard County, the
technician that works on their buses, they have to own one to
two extra school buses so that they can keep them going because
school buses start and stop, start and stop. They do not get
the heat up enough to make the DEF fluid. DEF fluid is diesel
exhaust fluid that has been simply pure urea that is injected
into the exhaust stream and burns up the particulate in the air
coming out is better than the air going in, but it is just
very, very expensive to use. That is one example.
Senator Braun. Thank you. Go ahead with your opening
statement.
STATEMENT OF TOM MCKINNEY, PRESIDENT AND OWNER,
MCKINNEY FARMS, INC., KEMPTON, INDIANA
Mr. McKinney. Senator Braun, staff, guests, thanks for
inviting me to this hearing and listening session.
As we have a discussion on challenges as well as
opportunities for older Americans, I will tend to migrate
toward agriculture and mostly production agriculture
experiences.
One of the greatest obstacles is health care, especially
when one spouse has graduated to Medicare status and the other
has not. This concern is heard in many group settings and heard
frequently in Social Security Office waiting rooms when
citizens chat among themselves ahead of an appointment. Church
groups, organized meetings at the local Farm Bureau, and other
public gatherings are other examples of where this subject
arises as well.
On a personal note, since our farm is not large enough for
a group health plan, we purchase from the Affordable Care Act
alternatives which is very expensive, and then we supplement
that with a membership in a Christin Health Ministry policy.
A very positive note on the Christian Health policy is we
are a member with an incentive to live healthy, exercise, and
eat healthy. There is nothing more powerful than a personal
incentive to make a situation better for yourselves as well as
others in the group. It just works. It invites competition as
well, which is a good thing.
With respect to opportunities for our rural elderly, on a
positive note, in attempt to remain objective, production
agriculture does offer a unique way for retired or elderly
citizens to stay involved and earn a supplemental income.
Seasonal needs on the farm, such as grain cart driver, seed
tender for the spring planter with a pickup truck, or driving
semis are all superb ways for elderly or retiring farmers to
stay active.
A few short years ago we rotated two firefighters and
police officers on their days off to have one full-time
employee. It worked fabulously. This is a win/win scenario.
Another challenge that has affected all of us in
agriculture falls along the ESG topic. While the title
``Environmental, Social and Governance'' seems to be like a
benign title, it has far-reaching and costly effects. On our
farm and others like ours, we have moved to a strip tillage
system for corn and a nearly complete no-till system for
soybeans. We do seed cover crops with a vertical till, minimum
disturbance tool, simply incorporates the seed into the soil a
little better. We have eliminated as many as three additional
trips across the acreage and have prevented carbon expulsions
into the atmosphere. We have also reduced our nitrogen and
fertilizer as a result. This is all a good thing and not
required by the government yet. Economics has driven this.
A case where government mandate has been expensive to all
of us as producers and taxpayers is the emissions mandate of
farm equipment. Both Case IH dealers and John Deere dealers,
representing approximately 70 to 80 percent of all sales across
Indiana, share with me that about 40 percent of all service
calls are for emissions. Three years ago, that was 70 percent.
Their words, not mine.
Personally, in 2019, which was a late planting and wet
year, we added a third seed planter to our lineup to get seeds
planted, albeit late. The tractor on that planter was only two
years old with low hours. It did have emissions required
material on it. We spent, and ultimately lost, three days
working on emissions issues. We had three different technicians
trying to get the tractor to run.
The end result was we got rained out again and had to
collect Preventative Planting Insurance claims on 500-plus
acres. Although we did pay our premiums to Federal crop
insurance, it was no fun and goes against every fiber of a
farmer's being to not plant. In the three lost days we could
have easily planted way over 500 acres, but the government-
mandated emissions made it impossible. Several tens of
thousands of dollars were paid out from the USDA Insurance
funds as a result.
Friends and neighbors share stories about ambulances or
fire trucks requiring excessive funds, school buses, just to
keep their equipment running so emergency runs can be made. The
chatter behind the scenes is the idea that emergency equipment
should be exempt so they can at least get to the job, the scene
of an accident or the scene of a crime. Is agriculture any
different?
If electric tractors and combines are forced upon us, I see
a disaster in the making. I say this not because I am opposed
to new technology or energy, because we have our own, 1/3-meg
solar farm that covers all of our electricity needs for a half
of million bushel grain handling, drying, and processing
facilities, as well as all shop and storage facilities. I
personally invested a strong six-figure cost into building it.
It works great, with no complaints.
Let's look at some hydrogen engines, which is the same core
engines that are already in the tractors and semi's but just
made with a little different fuel on the top. Electric combines
and tractors will not work. This is because we operate nearly
eighteen to twenty hours, sometimes twenty-four hours per day,
and we cannot stop for eight to twelve hours to charge
batteries. There is no way to charge the equipment, and the
same with semi tractors.
Electric vehicles make perfectly good sense, especially in
an urban setting. One size does not fit all in this world, so
let's not make it do so. Our operation could easily, and
probably will have a couple of EV pickup trucks in the future,
especially for my father, who drives around and observes
everything, but it is not for my production equipment. It is a
cost that is too costly and too high for my returns, and before
I end I want to thank you for your service to our country and
whoever is in the audience with you. You guys are the backbone.
Senator Braun. Thank you, Tom.
Wes, as an employer, older Americans are unretiring, mostly
because of inflation, and I think true worry about what lies
ahead. What are your experiences as a multifaceted employer on
workers unretiring? What do you think the reasons are once they
come back into the workforce? How do you view them reentering?
Plus, minus, just give me your overview there, and then follow-
up with your opening statement.
Mr. Snyder. Thank you. My workforce ranges in ages anywhere
from teenagers to workers over 60 years old, although probably
25 percent of my workforce is over the age of 50. We have
experienced many retired workers coming back, and I think it is
all the reasons you initially talked about. With inflation
their dollars are not going as far as what they had in the
past.
In many cases we have found that older employees are very
good mentors. They are great with our younger team members.
However, we still need more employees coming out post-COVID. It
is still hard to attract and retain good employees. The fact
that some retirees are coming back in is a definite plus for
us.
Senator Braun. Very good. Go ahead.
STATEMENT OF WESLEY SNYDER, MULTI-BRAND
FRANCHISE OWNER, FISHERS, INDIANA
Mr. Snyder. Good afternoon, Ranking Member Braun. Again, my
name is Wes Snyder. I am a franchise business owner of
FASTSIGNS, Pirtek, and My Salon Suites. I mostly own and
operate FASTSIGNS locations here in my home State of Indiana,
as well as Arizona, Texas, North Carolina, South Carolina, and
Florida. I appreciate the invitation to appear before this
Committee to share my story of small business ownership and
discuss the views of my fellow local business owners everywhere
as it relates to challenges of today's labor market.
Senator, I would like to take a moment to express my
gratitude for all you have done to support the franchise
business community in Indiana. You have been our go-to leader
in Congress for standing up to Washington, D.C., policies that
would hinder our ability to serve our businesses, employees,
and our local community. We appreciate you for taking a stand
against overregulation, and in particular for your leadership
against the nominations of David Weil to serve as the
Administrator of the Wage and Hour Division, and most recently
the still-pending nomination of Julie Su to serve as the Labor
Secretary at the Department of Labor. On behalf of the
franchise community, thank you for standing up for our business
model when so many other lawmakers and advocates are actively
trying to make running our businesses more difficult.
I began my franchising journey in 1998, when I opened my
first FASTSIGNS location here in Indianapolis. Today I am a
proud location of eight locations across six states. Like many,
I have found franchising a pathway to build a new life that I
could pass down to our children.
I have experienced firsthand the remarkable impact that
franchise businesses can have on local economies and
communities, including their ability to create jobs, develop a
skilled workforce, and foster economic growth. I have been in
franchising for over 25 years, and created a community of our
own, employing more than 200 team members that have been a part
of our system for several years, exceeding average employee
retention in large part due to the company culture we have
created amongst the team. I use the word ``team'' instead of
``employees'' or ``workers'' because that is what we are, and
the team that supports my business is uniquely suited for the
communities in which we operate.
I appreciate this hearing to address the economic
challenges and opportunities for older Americans. As a multi-
brand franchise owner, our team members span generations, from
teenagers to team members aged 60 and older. We are proud of
our growth through franchising and the broader role of
franchising in the economic recovery.
The COVID-19 pandemic battered small businesses in historic
ways. Being part of a franchise system helped me navigate the
pandemic immensely. In franchising we say you go into business
for yourself but not by yourself. In a time of need, other
franchisees of our brands would stay connected regularly to
share best practices and brainstorm ideas on how to best
approach government-assisted programs like EIDL and PPP loans.
In addition to the peer-to-peer communications, we have
significant support from our franchisors. The FASTSIGNS brand
hosted weekly calls to assist with operations, informs us about
government-assisted programs, and other resources available to
help us navigate the crisis.
While we are on a path to recovery from the devastating
effects of the pandemic, we still have a long way to go. As a
small business owner still recovering from the pandemic, my
main focus right now is rebuilding our team and navigating
policy uncertainties that may have real-world, bottom-line
impacts to our balance sheet.
Now the biggest threat facing franchise small businesses
like mine during the economic recovery are legislative and
regulatory actions. This month, the NLRB is planning to issue a
final rule on a joint employer standard that would reverse its
course back to the harmful 2015 version. Moreover, it risks
wiping away the equity that I have spent my life and career
building in my business, and ultimately makes me a middle
manager of any brand.
In fact, forthcoming research from Oxford Economics based
on a July 2023 survey of franchisees shows that franchise
owners are bracing for more harm from the new NLRB joint
employer rule as it injects uncertainty into the franchisor-
franchisee relationship and threatens standard enforcement
across franchise systems.
One of the findings in the report is that 74 percent of
franchisees expressed a high level of concerns at the prospect
of increased franchisor control of their franchises, and 55
percent gave a high level of concerns with decreased franchisor
support and involvement in their franchises. Both outcomes are
bad for franchisees.
This Oxford report shows that franchising generally has the
right balance in the franchisor-franchisee relationship and the
joint employer policy out of the NLRB is just unnecessary and
very harmful to the franchise businesses like mine.
Further compounding the strain of the franchise business
model by legislative and regulatory interference is Julie Su's
nomination to serve as the Secretary of Labor. On May 8th of
this year I been an op-ed in the Phoenix Business Journal,
noting that if confirmed Julie Su would turn the American dream
of business ownership into the American nightmare. During her
time as Deputy Secretary of Labor, Su was a key figure in
supporting California's FAST Act, a law that will undercut
franchise owners by giving unaccountable government appointees
the authority to dictate business decisions on issues like
wages and working conditions.
Without a doubt, these seismic shifts in the employment
policy and governance would hurt small businesses and provide
fewer opportunities, particularly for women, minorities, and
other underrepresented communities.
Franchise businesses possess a unique ability to address
the workforce challenges faced by our Nation. It is vital that
Congress considers policies that support and encourage the
growth of the franchise businesses while carefully assessing
the potential implications of harmful legislation and
regulatory action.
Ranking Member Braun, thank you again for all you have done
for Main Street businesses here in Indiana and for the
invitation to speak on behalf of small business owners
everywhere. I look forward to answering any questions you might
have.
Senator Braun. Thank you, Wes.
Valerie, you have been working at St. Vincent de Paul, and
you come there as a senior citizen. Give me your take on how
folks like you and others that have chosen to work at this
stage of the game, how that compares maybe to what you see in
terms of younger people that you might confront, their point of
view, the work ethic, and all of that, because I think some of
what is drawing many out of retirement would be because the
jobs are there, and you just assume maybe younger people would
do it. Would you mind weighing in on that, and then after that
do your opening statement.
Ms. Jones. Okay. Senator Braun, being a senior citizen
going back to work, St. Vincent de Paul welcomed me with open
arms, and they have since said to me that they are glad they
made that decision.
Work ethics for the younger ones have changed. I do not
know when that happened, but they do not take it as seriously
as my generation. They want what they want right now, and they
do not necessarily want to work long-term for it. That is the
biggest difference I have noticed.
They tend to act on what I think is impulse. For instance,
as an example, we had a young person that they hired, and she
got a toothache so she thought she should go home, where
someone in my generation would have asked, ``Can I go to the
store and get a pain killer and come back and work?''
We, as older citizens, the younger people need us. We need
to be examples for them. We need to share our experiences,
because if we do not, we are going to lose them.
Senator Braun. Thank you. Go ahead and do your opening
statement.
STATEMENT OF VALERIE A. JONES, ASSISTANT TO
THE PHILANTHROPIST, ST. VINCENT DE PAUL,
INDIANAPOLIS, INDIANA
Ms. Jones. Thank you again, Senator Braun, for hosting this
panel.
I am here to share my journey of my experiences going back
to work as a senior citizen. Being a Baby Boomer, from that
generation, we had different rules to grow up by. We were
taught that you finished high school, you go to college and
finish college, get a good career, get married, have children,
and retire at 65. As Senator Braun and all of us have pointed
out, that is not the case.
I started looking around, and there are more older people
going back to work, and I never thought I would have to be in
that position, but I found myself in that position.
I have had a lot of careers. When I was in college, I said
I would have five careers before I retired, and I made it. This
is my fifth career. That being said, when I finished college I
went to work for the Internal Revenue Service for a couple of
years. My degree was in elementary education, so I taught
reading, English, and adult education. It was there that I
found out that seniors were getting prepared to have to go back
to work.
After I had my children I found myself having to go back
home, which many women had to do, and still have to do today
because kids come first. However, in 1994, I became disabled,
and I did not see that coming, so that went on, that
disability. Trying to live on SSDI was very difficult because I
was used to making much more money. It seemed like I was
budgeting month-to-month, a different budget every month, and
money was just not there. It was just not enough. I had to
choose, do I buy food and groceries today and not buy my
medication for my disability, or what exactly do I do?
That went on until 2017, and in 2017, I was introduced to
SCSEP, which stands for Senator Community Service Employment
Program. What that did is it changed my life. I did not realize
how useless I felt or how depressed I had become, because I
like to work. I like challenges. I like learning new things. I
like experiences, and that was not happening at home on
disability.
SCSEP changed my life. Going through that free training
program I was reinvented. I was reenergized. I got my self-
respect back. Baby Boomers take pride in working. We are
dependable and we are loyal, and employers are finding that out
because a lot of our bosses are much younger than we are, so
that see that, hey, wow, this will work, and I think that goes
to how our country is made. We are a great country.
Seniors today have many challenges, even going back to
work, because we are older, of course, we have health issues,
most of us, of course, and we do not have many benefits because
we are kind of at the bottom of the totem pole at the jobs that
we have.
My situation is not unique. There are many seniors that are
in my position. Going back to work is necessary today,
unfortunately, because of the things we have talked about--
inflation. The job market is suffering because there are not
enough people going to apply for jobs, so like you said,
Senator, that did open doors for older Americans to go back to
work, but employers like us. They need us. Our younger
generation needs us because we set the example to have good
work ethics, to take care of your families, and to live the
best life that you can.
I would like to thank you, Senator, for inviting me and
talking about this because seniors, we need the free programs
like SCSEP to give us the training. I learned some new skills,
I enhanced older skills, and that made me very valuable to St.
Vincent de Paul. I do kind of a little bit of everything, and I
can do that, so please, please consider the program, Senator,
because we are not castaways, we are not throwaways. We are
people that have values, that want to work, that can work, and
want to be a part of our community, and I believe with
everything, being a Baby Boomer, America is still a land of
opportunity.
Senator Braun. Thank you.
Ms. Jones. Thank you.
Senator Braun. For the rest of the hearing we are going to
circle around with questions. I will have another set of them.
I have got a few that I have written down, and then before we
wrap it up and I give my closing statement if there is
something you want to say, where it is not a question, giving
you the incentive to do it, speak up, so that will be kind of
your closing statements before I close out.
Toby, we will get back to you. When I look at law
enforcement and the difficulty that it has had to navigate
through in terms of recruitment, some of the ways certain
jurisdictions look at law enforcement, you hear crazy talk like
defunding police and just a lot that would say why would
somebody want to come into it.
Why don't you talk a little bit about how the WEP and GPO
aggravates that and then what else you think needs to change to
kind of counter that sentiment.
Mr. Deaton. Well certainly the violence and the continued
attacks on law enforcement has had a massive effect on
recruiting. Last week I was at the National FOP Conference and
every state, this was a major topic. I will give one example,
California was down 1,800 deputies in a very large sheriff's
office there.
I want to make it more personal. I want to talk about my
own department, sir. I currently have three openings. We are a
small agency.
Senator Braun. How many work in the agency altogether? You
have got three openings.
Mr. Deaton. I have 21 is what we have.
Senator Braun. Fifteen percent or so. That is a fairly high
number, and have you had trouble filling it over time?
Mr. Deaton. Trying to hire right now, I have eight
applicants to fill three positions, and this is before the
testing starts. By the time we do the physical agility and
written test I will be lucky to have three applicants left, let
alone the background investigation, the interviews, that sort
of thing.
The problem that I really want to discuss with this, and it
goes into a lot of other areas, I contend that whenever we put
less-qualified people in these positions it is going to
exacerbate the problems that we have had in law enforcement
across this country, any type of negative encounters, and we
want to change that desperately.
I still believe this is a very noble profession, but
unfortunately right now it is very hard to recruit and it is
very hard to get people to go into this profession, given the
sentiment, given the problems that we have, and then couple
that with understanding you are going to work your entire life
and then you are going to be penalized for not only the second
but the third job that you have had, by up to 60 percent. It is
a big problem, and repealing this would be a huge help in
recruiting.
Senator Braun. Thank you.
Tom, the average age of a farmer--is this correct, 57 years
old?
Mr. Snyder. Yes.
Senator Braun. We were just talking. Valerie mentioned
earlier that the ideal retirement would be 65, and we know that
we are living longer so maybe that cannot be what we always
thought it was going to be, but for that job, it seems it only
filled generationally, whether you have that next generation
interested in it, and it is probably the thing that is most
important in our lives--food, and maybe shelter.
What does the future of farming look like when you have got
the average age being so far out there, and it is seemingly
hard to get that new farmer, even if they come outside of
farming, it is so expensive to get started. How do you see that
play out?
Mr. McKinney. That is a two-fold, Senator Braun. First of
all, there are opportunities because there are operations like
ours that are looking for a young man or woman or couple that
want to farm but have no opportunity to do so because we are
willing to help them get started.
One of the greatest problems, and it was clear underneath
the radar, is when the discussion was happening a few months
ago about taking away stepped-up basis when a parent dies. That
would be an unmitigated disaster for our entire nation because
you do not reinvent the American farmer. You cannot teach them
like you can a CEO of Amazon or a store manager or a bank
manager or a bank president. You cannot teach that all over
again.
If my grandkids wanted to farm, I do not know if they would
be able to because they have missed a generation. Now do not
get me wrong. My kids are doing very, very well. They are doing
what they should be doing because they have to do it to be
happy, but there is probably not an opportunity for my
grandkids to do it because there would not be anybody there to
teach them, but if we take away stepped-up basis to where every
farm is taxed based on fair market value instead of the
stepped-up basis, you can forget the family farm. No question
about it, and so I am glad that kind of fell by the wayside,
thanks a lot to the National Wheat Growers Association, believe
it or not, because that would be the worst thing of all.
There are some things coming out of the EU, they are in
Brussels, to do away with glyphosate herbicide. You have heard
of Roundup? First of all, that came out of the Ninth Circuit
Court in San Francisco, is why it is in trouble, but if you do
away with those contact herbicides, they do not get into the
water stream, they are simply a contact herbicide that go away
with the sunshine, and that is what we need to be able to start
using more cover crops, which do hold water. More and more
people are using cover crops, especially this State. We are one
of the top in the Nation in using cover crops to hold soil, to
hold back weeds. I will not get into a bunch of examples.
The main thing is USDA really does a really good job, and
there is not much changeover between an R and D and
administration. There just is not because we all have the same
common interests, but for the most part, do not start meddling
in agriculture. We get the crop in, we get the crop out, but if
we are required to start using electric combines and electric
tractors, forget it. We cannot do it.
Now I am not opposed to new technologies, but as a member
of the Energy Committee for Indian Farm Bureau we are going to
be talking to the Cummins folks down here in Columbus, Indiana,
and looking at their hydrogen engines because the waste product
for that is water.
Senator Braun. Listening to your testimony I heard you talk
about health care costs. Health care costs for all of us, some
of the highest in the country right here in our own State with
some of the poorest outcomes. I was so fatigued of hearing how
lucky I was that my health insurance costs are only going up
five to ten percent each year. It got to be so repetitive and
so hard to counter by raising deductibles, changing
underwriters every three years, I said, ``Enough is enough.''
I took it on when we had about 300 employees and I could
not dismiss it anymore, and turned my employees into health
care consumers at that time, buy in to avoiding the system with
taking care of your plant and equipment, gave them every
wellness tool, created an incentive for them to have skin in
the game on minor health care, and then got some of the best
protection when you get critically ill or have a bad accident.
I had the benefit of being large enough to self-insure. The
insurance companies never told us about that until I said I was
basically not going to renew my plan.
What have you been able to do, as a farmer? I know Farm
Bureau has stepped up where you can associate through their
buying power.
Mr. McKinney. I am not as familiar with the Indiana Farm
Bureau health plan as I should be, basically because I am happy
where I am at and with what we have done, because we are a
small operation we are able to give health care reimbursement.
Our employees can choose the plan of their choice, and we can
reimburse the cost of that insurance plan, and we can also
offer, out of our own pocket, supplemental dental, and eye
protection, things like that. We just do that out of our own
costs, and it is much cheaper than trying to buy an expensive
mandated plan of some sort.
Senator Braun. Very good. I do not think that is going
away, and we need to do a better job of that here in Indiana.
Wes, joint employer rule. I heard more from franchisors and
franchisees on a system. Why, if there is nothing broken, would
you try to fix it? Often in government that is a relevant
question, regardless of what the subject is, so if you would,
explain what that means. I led a bicameral letter with 67 of my
colleagues, including Tim Scott, Marco Rubio, Rick Scott, who
came in when I did back in 2018, objecting to the then-proposed
rule which would cost hundreds of thousands of jobs and over
$30 billion in economic activity.
Where the rubber meets the road, as a franchisor,
franchisee, tell us what that means if, in fact, they dig in
deeper there.
Mr. Snyder. Right, so the joint employer rule, at the crux
of it is, the government would like to say, okay, that the
franchisee and the franchisor share those employees. The NLRB's
proposed changes to the joint employer rule will take away the
equity and the independence of franchise small business owner
and would put their success and livelihoods, including mine, in
jeopardy. Franchisors will naturally move to hire numerous
attorneys to oversee employment issues, claims across its
network of independently owned franchise businesses, that the
franchisor has no control.
Ultimately, the additional cost to the franchisor would
translate to additional cost to independent owners like myself,
and that would make the franchise business model untenable.
Coupled with the rising cost of labor, this rule would make it
more difficult to fill positions of unskilled labor, skilled
labor, and both.
Brand new research from the Oxford Economics that I spoke
about earlier shows that franchisees are bracing for more harm
from the new NLRB rule. Seventy percent of franchisees expect
increased litigation costs. Sixty-six percent of franchisee
respondents expected a new standard to raise barriers to entry
into franchising.
One of the things that I really enjoy doing now is all the
different franchise locations that we have, I partnered with
local owners inside of those businesses, acting equity partners
that I give equity to, give them a chance to earn more equity
and buy those businesses over time. One of my greatest things
that I enjoy doing is building leaders and building
entrepreneurs of the next generation, and that joint employer
rule would not allow us to do that.
Senator Braun. Thank you, because I am guessing a
franchisee, I do not know how many of small businesses start
that way but it is a fairly large percentage, no different from
my wife's business that started in downtown Jasper, she has
been running for 45 years, and that is, to me, the ultimate
kind of blue-collar job because you are doing most of the work
and you are responsible for making sure all the bills are paid
for the entity itself, so we have got to make sure that when it
comes to franchisees, small business owners, National
Federation of Independent Business is an organization that is
always looking out for that--that we do not forget that that is
how you become a medium-sized and large business, and if you
ever squelch that, you know, we are getting into territory that
I think is so far off base and I am glad for explaining that
today. Thank you.
Mr. Snyder. Thank you.
Senator Braun. Valerie, you have described what it is like
coming back into the workforce, and it sounds like you have
embraced it, and you have given us good reasons why maybe that
wisdom from being older comes into play. You have compared it
with maybe some of the assumptions and some of the things that
the younger generation thinks should just automatically be
there.
I want to have you tell us, in your own life, inflation has
never been as bad as it is now. I would have to go back to when
I first started in the early 1980's, and for anyone who does
not remember that a home mortgage was a bargain in the late
1970's at 10 percent, 10 percent, and if you were unlucky
enough to not get your home mortgaged before, I think it was
Paul Volcker had to wring inflation out of his system, it was
close to 18 percent in the early 1980's, fall of 1981, and it
took four to five years to get rid of that through keeping
interest rates high, and that is how tough that issue is when
you let that little nasty out of the box, so in your own life,
in your own budget, where has inflation been most negatively
impactful in your life?
Ms. Jones. That is a very good question. Most people do not
believe I am 71, so I have seen a lot of changes with
inflation.
Like you said, at one time it was very easy to buy a home.
Most seniors today have lost their homes because of inflation.
They cannot pay the property taxes. Social Security just does
not get it, if that is their only source of income. They have
having to help raise their grandkids a lot of times, so that
means more food, so it is very difficult today.
I have watched, it is like, in a sense, America changed in
a way, because I was taught one way but I was actually forced
to live another way. You know, more money for this. When I was
working childcare--I do not know if I mentioned, my daughter is
mentally challenged, so I had her in addition to my son to
raise. I was divorced at the time, so it was very, very
difficult. I had to really search around for a cheap caregiver
for my children, if that makes any sense, because I could not
afford some of the rates that people were asking.
Then clothing went up. When kids are in school and you have
especially a boy, they grow fast, and every month you buy new
shoes, it looks like, so it was very costly.
I feel for the generation today because they do not have a
lot. The younger people do not have a lot to pull from,
unfortunately, because of how the economy has changed, because
of how people's attitudes about the economy and working have
changed. Even attitudes about raising a family have changed.
I believe we, as seniors, have to move in and pull it back
together. I feel like seniors are the glue that has held
everything together, and if you discard us or forget about us,
I do not know. I think we would be in real big trouble.
Senator Braun. Amen. Thank you.
We have got a little under a half an hour left, and usually
this does not happen in a hearing out in D.C., but we do not
cover everything that you might be interested in talking about,
so I am going to give you the latitude to use three to five
minutes to bring up another topic you want to talk about. If I
hear something that I need to get a little more detail on--like
I know, Tom, I am going to ask you, and this will be a simple
one, how much acreage does one-third megawatt takes up. You can
save that for when it comes around to you.
Toby, go ahead, and if there is something that we needed to
cover, now is the time to do it.
Mr. Deaton. Well certainly, obviously, we talk about
funding when it comes to grants, I represent a small agency in
Indiana, and we currently have a grant. It involves sexual
abuse of minor children. We are going to do away with that
grant because we are spending more time doing the paperwork on
the grant than what we are able to actually do the grant.
Senator Braun. A Federal grant or a State grant?
Mr. Deaton. Both.
Senator Braun. Both are kind of complicated.
Mr. Deaton. Yes.
Senator Braun. That is not good.
Mr. Deaton. Well, from my perspective it is certainly not.
Law enforcement officers want to be working doing law
enforcement stuff, and too often, unfortunately, we are having
to fill out paperwork, accountability, and while certainly
every dollar we spend is vital because it is a very short
dollar, I guess my question to you is, is there anything that
you can do? I realize getting anything passed in Washington is
a miracle. Is there anything you can do to help law enforcement
funding, particularly make it to the small agencies? Most in
Indiana are small agencies.
Senator Braun. Easy question to that is my background was
finance, and then I was an entrepreneur, and then I decided not
to take the normal route and come back to my hometown, and then
got involved in a hardscrabble business. The same kind of
dynamic applies to almost any entity. The one I am a part of
now, being on the Budget Committee, we do know budgets.
I was an appropriator, which is the most coveted committee
to be on, and when I found out the head appropriators on each
side of the aisle did not want any input from the members of
their own Senate Committee, we could not even get the top line
in terms of what we were going to spend until you hear about
these omnibus bills, the government shutting down.
That is why I think that when it comes to funding, probably
it is going to be harder to get, because if you are going more
and more in debt, you are asking your kids and grandkids to pay
for it.
I would say that we need to probably focus on a cash-flow
that is strong in our own State, and most of the checks are
written from a state government to law enforcement, and
probably need to work on it there, and when it comes to
anything that is going to incentivize people to come into, like
I said earlier, a job about as difficult as being a farmer, and
you two could argue between the two of yourselves on what might
be tougher, that is how we fix it, so in the meantime, just
like WEP/GPO, we have never had so much money sloshing around
in our Federal Government. A lot of it is rat holed or put into
some places where it is even hard for a Senator to see it, but
in anything that has a fiscal, and that would have, we have
been able to find it, because if the policy is important
enough, the money is there, siting in unused funds. I am
worried about the mid and long term, when you are running a
place that is not managing its own budgets in the way it should
because it does not do them.
More funding is what everybody wants from D.C. I think
until it starts actually cash-flowing, that is probably a
business partner that I would be a little wary of and figure
out how you might be able to fix it in ways that are more
dependable.
Mr. Deaton. Certainly, we always are looking for grants and
looking for ways to spend dollars a little more fiscally
conservative, because they go far away. You mentioned what is
tougher--law enforcement or farming.
Senator Braun. I would suggest get the grants from places
that will have them available, dependably, and that is from
entities that cash-flow and do not borrow to do it.
Mr. Deaton. Absolutely. I was going to make one last point.
You said what was tougher, a farmer or a police officer. I
baled hay for my grandfather----
[Laughter.]
Senator Braun. There we go. At least we have got that on
record, okay.
Tom, go ahead. Anything we missed, and then how much
acreage does one-third megawatt generate?
Mr. McKinney. One-third megawatt is 12 of the big arrays.
If you have been by the airport, those are the small arrays.
These are the big arrays. It takes about one acre, and it is
basically an old hog lot that Grandpa and Dad used to have when
hogs were outside, and we just converted that to a solar farm.
For what it is worth, Duke Energy loves me because I am on
the very end of a Duke line, because Frankfort Power and Light
is two miles away, Boone County REMC comes at the other end,
and the only time I suck power off the grid is in October, on
grain fans, so the rest of the time that solar farm is cranking
power out on a line for the end of that line. Now they will
never say so. Great relationship, but solar just plain works. A
lot of you consider it, and the efficiency is going to
increase.
Remember this term: perovskite. You can make it
synthetically. There is an associate professor at Purdue that
teaches each semester's class how to do it, and that, along
with silica, will increase the efficiency of a solar panel nine
to fifteen percent, and let's just say twelve as an average,
and that is a fact.
That is a great way of just putting a little bit in your
own facility. I think the laws are going to change to help
facilitate that, but back to what Valerie said, I am with you.
I used to de-tassel seed corn for 35 years, and we would have
anywhere from 200 to 600 junior high-aged kids every July. We
were in the cornfields at 5:30 in the morning, not 5:45, 5:30.
I do not think I could get 10 percent of those kids to come out
and do that anymore. I do not want to beat up on Gen Z.
If there is a message that could be sent, and I think you
probably already do this, Senator Braun, is that the next
generation does not need to be made easier. They need to have
the same hard experiences that maybe we did, especially
Valerie.
Senator Braun. The Greatest Generation, that grew up in the
Depression, fought a World War, highest debt we ever had, paid
it off, built the interstate highways.
Mr. McKinney. Exactly right. That is the best example there
ever is, but we need to stop making things so easy. I am not
going to argue with maybe if they are going to need to stay on
their parents' insurance policy until a little longer. Okay,
fine, but my gosh, to give everybody everything. You are giving
them fish rather than teaching them to fish, and that is an
unmitigated disaster for our country if we do not teach work
ethic, because that has always been our advantage. We have had
it in spades over Europe and other places.
Senator Braun. Many businesses that I talk to that have had
the kids do not want to be on the farm because you get so much
more done, productivity, and a lot of kids just do not want to
do that. Some of their best workers came from the farm because
of the work ethic there when they grew up.
Mr. McKinney. Exactly. My daughter works for an H.R. firm
out of Chicago, and she will hire anybody at any land grant
university. If it has 4-H or FFA on the application they are
immediately hired and find a place for them.
When Mitch Daniels was interviewing for the Governor job in
this State, he stayed with farm families and he could not
believe that some of the 10-and 12-year-old 4-Hers were up at
5:30, 6:00 a.m. to go feed their steers or let the sows out and
eat.
Senator Braun. One final question. Do you use an alarm
clock, or not?
Mr. McKinney. No.
Senator Braun. Very good.
Mr. McKinney. It is automatic, 6:00 a.m.
Senator Braun. That is a blessing.
Wes, go ahead. What do we need to discuss that we did not
cover?
Mr. Snyder. You know, I do not know if there is anything
additional. I just want to say again, thank you so much for
this opportunity, and thank you so much for being such an
advocate for small business. As I was sitting here just
thinking about this, I have got 12 former employees that are
now business owners on their own, in different places
throughout the country, and being able to live the American
dream because of the franchise community, the franchise model,
and thank you so much for protecting that model and continuing
to do that.
Senator Braun. You are very welcome.
Valerie?
Ms. Jones. I guess I would like to just kind of enhance a
little bit about employment, free employment programs for the
elderly. We now know it is a fact. We are going back to work. I
have talked to younger people and they do not even expect to
retire. They are wondering, will I last that long?
I think medicine makes so many advancements that cause us
to live longer. I can remember when I was growing up the
average around death, around me and my community, was like 51.
My mother even died at 52.
We have got to do something about that. We have got to get
people ready. I agree with you. We should not make it easy for
our kids. My son hates me to this day because he did not have
it easy, but he also thanks me, because he says, ``Mama, I am
stronger. I can stand on my two feet. You taught me to think.''
We need that. Our country, in some ways, has gotten too
soft. We have lost some of our backbone, and if we do not
regain that, that strength, we are going to flop, but also, on
the other end, young people have other different issues, like
crime is higher, violence is off the chart. I would be very
nervous if my kids were in school today because kids carrying
weapons into schools--that was unheard of.
Also safety even for seniors has gotten pretty significant.
In fact, I was attached three weeks ago going into my apartment
building, and I live in a senior citizen apartment building,
but this young man thought I had money, and he knocked me down,
purse stepping, and hit me in the back of the head with a piece
of wood or something. I had never thought about that I would be
unsafe going into my home.
I take my hat off to law enforcement. I want to. I
appreciate you. In fact, I appreciate all of you, because we
are working together. We see the issues and we want to take
care of them, and that is a plus, so thank you very much.
Senator Braun. You are very welcome, and the panel's
discussion, I think, has been enlightening to me. I do a lot of
these. I am on Health, Education, Labor, and Pensions, and it
is interesting to think of what that covers, and a lot of times
what we do here on the Aging Committee, since you cannot
legislate through it, you can take a different Committee and do
something with it.
I think about Bernie Sanders is the Chair of the Health,
Education, Labor, and Pensions, and not too long ago there was
an issue, and this had to do with the railroads, and, of
course, Bernie always likes to do things in a certain way, and
he put an amendment on the floor that was not going to pass,
but it addressed an issue, and that was because rail workers
did not have real sick days, and a lot of it evolved because a
train has to show up on time, and you had to kind of bargain
for a sick day.
I thought about that. I even checked in my own company to
make sure what we were doing, and, of course, Bernie wanted
seven out of the gate, and that was way more than almost any
business would have, average business, but we went to vote on
it, and I had some of my Republican cohorts say, ``You might
regret that vote.''
Well, I said, ``I do not think so. I am going to vote for
it. It is not going to pass anyway.'' It is like most things in
Congress, is it going to send a message? You do not necessarily
have to legislate to get something done.
Well, three weeks later, the suggestion was, I thought,
closer to four days, and I do not even know if I made that
public, but then found out nearly half to two-thirds of the
railroads settled with their employees for four real sick days,
so it does not mean that you cannot come up with a solution,
and even in Health, Education, Labor, and Pensions, imagine the
territory that covers, and you can get things done.
In my view, if you do it only through the Federal
Government you are asking for a lot of the red tape, a lot of
the complications, a lot of the things we have talked about
here, so when you want to craft real solutions, maybe look more
to your communities, your local and state governments, because
it will be paid for.
It would be like asking, at your Thanksgiving dinner, you
want to put an addition on the home, and ``Hey, kids. We do not
have the money but we would like to borrow it from you, and it
is going to be expensive enough, maybe the grandkids will have
to sign the note.'' We cannot do that, and that might sound
like a crazy analogy, but that is kind of what we have been
doing.
I am glad that we have discussions like this one here. We
will continue to do it. You have brought out, Toby, the
inherent inequity in WEP and GPO, and I will, honestly, go back
there and try to find a pay-for to get that across the finish
line, and we will keep you posted on that.
A strong economy benefits everyone, and this country was
based upon equal opportunity, everyone having a chance to make
it in a way that maybe if you choose not to, you do not have to
work that late into your senior years. We are blessed with
technology and a health care system that it costs us a lot but
enables us to live longer.
The challenges in government are how do you have your cake
and eat it too. Most of the time that does not happen, but we
can do better than what we are currently doing, and when it
comes to the Aging Committee, the topics we have been talking
about today, there are solutions to it. This has been a
productive hearing, and for the time that I have been in the
Senate, four and half years, it may sound like the Hatfields
and McCoys, but really there are places where you can find
stuff that makes so much common sense that you get to it, and
even not paying for it by borrowing from our kids and
grandkids.
The legislation that has gone through our office, almost
without exception, finds a pay-for. No one wants to raise
taxes. That is tough politically, and we do not need to. We
have got more revenue coming into the Federal Government in the
history of the country. We need to spend it more wisely. You
need to have good conversations like this on how to do it.
That is the optimism I share on how we have a better
country, not only to where it reforms itself out in D.C., but
to where we continue things where it really works, on Main
Street, in our states, in our businesses, and in our families.
That will conclude our hearing today. Thank you all for
being here, witnesses and attending.
[Whereupon, at 3:20 p.m., the hearing was adjourned.]
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APPENDIX
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Prepared Witness Statements
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