[Senate Hearing 118-45]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]


                                                         S. Hrg. 118-45

                CLEANER VEHICLES: GOOD FOR CONSUMERS AND 
                             PUBLIC HEALTH

=======================================================================

                                HEARING

                               BEFORE THE

                      SUBCOMMITTEE ON CLEAN AIR, 
                      CLIMATE, AND NUCLEAR SAFETY

                                 OF THE

                              COMMITTEE ON
                      ENVIRONMENT AND PUBLIC WORKS

                          UNITED STATES SENATE

                    ONE HUNDRED EIGHTEENTH CONGRESS

                             FIRST SESSION

                               __________

                             APRIL 18, 2023

                               __________

  Printed for the use of the Committee on Environment and Public Works
  
[GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]  


        Available via the World Wide Web: http://www.govinfo.gov
        
                                __________

                   U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE                    
52-794                     WASHINGTON : 2025                  
          
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               COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENT AND PUBLIC WORKS

                    ONE HUNDRED EIGHTEENTH CONGRESS

                             FIRST SESSION

                  THOMAS R. CARPER, Delaware, Chairman
                  
          SHELLEY MOORE CAPITO, West Virginia, Ranking Member

BENJAMIN L. CARDIN, Maryland         KEVIN CRAMER, North Dakota
BERNARD SANDERS, Vermont             CYNTHIA M. LUMMIS, Wyoming
SHELDON WHITEHOUSE, Rhode Island     MARKWAYNE MULLIN, Oklahoma
JEFF MERKLEY, Oregon                 PETE RICKETTS, Nebraska
EDWARD J. MARKEY, Massachusetts      JOHN BOOZMAN, Arkansas
DEBBIE STABENOW, Michigan            ROGER WICKER, Mississippi
MARK KELLY, Arizona                  DAN SULLIVAN, Alaska
ALEX PADILLA, California             LINDSEY O. GRAHAM, South Carolina
JOHN FETTERMAN, Pennsylvania

               Courtney Taylor, Democratic Staff Director
               Adam Tomlinson, Republican Staff Director
                              ----------                              

         Subcommittee on Clean Air, Climate, and Nuclear Safety

               EDWARD J. MARKEY, Massachusetts, Chairman

BENJAMIN L. CARDIN, Maryland         PETE RICKETTS, Nebraska, 
BERNARD SANDERS, Vermont                 Ranking Member
SHELDON WHITEHOUSE, Rhode Island     KEVIN CRAMER, North Dakota
JEFF MERKLEY, Oregon                 CYNTHIA M. LUMMIS, Wyoming
DEBBIE STABENOW, Michigan            MARKWAYNE MULLIN, Oklahoma
MARK KELLY, Arizona                  ROGER WICKER, Mississippi
ALEX PADILLA, California             DAN SULLIVAN, Alaska
THOMAS R. CARPER, Delaware (ex       LINDSEY O. GRAHAM, South Carolina
    officio)                         SHELLEY MOORE CAPITO, West 
                                         Virginia (ex officio)
                           
                           
                           C O N T E N T S

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                                                                   Page

                             APRIL 18, 2023
                             
                           OPENING STATEMENTS

Markey, Hon. Edward J., U.S. Senator from the State of 
  Massachusetts..................................................     1
Ricketts, Hon. Pete, U.S. Senator from the State of Nebraska.....     3

                               WITNESSES

Harris, Kathy, Senior Advocate, Clean Vehicles and Fuels, Natural 
  Resources Defense Council (NRDC)...............................    23
    Prepared statement...........................................    25
    Responses to additional questions from:
        Senator Carper...........................................    34
        Senator Kelly............................................    46
Harto, Chris, Senior Energy Policy Analyst, Transportation and 
  Energy, Consumer Reports.......................................    50
    Prepared statement...........................................    52
    Responses to additional questions from:
        Senator Carper...........................................   145
        Senator Kelly............................................   147
        Senator Ricketts.........................................   148
Boyle, Andrew, Co-President, First Vice Chair, Boyle 
  Transportation, American Trucking Associations.................   149
    Prepared statement...........................................   151
    Responses to additional questions from:
        Senator Carper...........................................   160
        Senator Kelly............................................   160
        Senator Ricketts.........................................   161

                          ADDITIONAL MATERIAL

Letters submitted for the record by Senator Pete Ricketts from:
    American Truck Dealers.......................................     6
    Growth Energy................................................    12
    Renewable Fuels Nebraska.....................................    14
    Renewable Fuels Association..................................    18
Articles from:
    The International Council on Clean Transportation: 
      Infrastructure and Supply Chains Won't Holdup EPA's 
      Proposed Light and Medium-Duty Vehicle Standards...........   167
    International Energy Agency: Comparative Life-Cycle 
      Greenhouse Gas Emissions of a Mid-Size BEV and ICE Vehicle.   180
    The Editorial Board: Biden's EPA Remakes the Auto Industry...   189
    The Washington Post: Biden's New Electric Car Rule Puts the 
      Country on the Wrong Road..................................   207
    Economic Policy Institute: The Stakes for Workers in How 
      Policymakers Manage the Coming Shift to All-Electric 
      Vehicles...................................................   209
    Environmental Defense Fund: U.S. Electric Vehicle 
      Manufacturing Investments and Jobs.........................   228
    Bipartisan Policy Center: IRA EV Tax Credits: Requirements 
      for Domestic Manufacturing.................................   236
     The International Council on Clean Transportation: Analyzing 
      the Impact of the Inflation Reduction Act on Electric 
      Vehicle Uptake in the United States........................   246
Letter to Senator Markey and Senator Ricketts from Clean Fuels 
  Alliance America...............................................   282

 
         CLEANER VEHICLES: GOOD FOR CONSUMERS AND PUBLIC HEALTH

                              ----------                              


                        TUESDAY, APRIL 18, 2023

                               U.S. Senate,
         Committee on Environment and Public Works,
    Subcommittee on Clean Air, Climate, and Nuclear Safety,
                                                    Washington, DC.
    U.S. Senate Committee on Environment and Public Works 
Subcommittee on Clean Air, Climate, and Nuclear Safety 
Washington, DC.
    The committee, met, pursuant to notice, at 2:36 p.m. in 
room 406, Dirksen Senate Office Building, Hon. Edward J. Markey 
(chairman of the subcommittee) presiding.
    Present: Senators Markey, Ricketts, Carper, Merkley, 
Padilla, Capito, Cramer, Lummis, Sullivan.

          OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. EDWARD J. MARKEY, 
          U.S. SENATOR FROM THE STATE OF MASSACHUSETTS

    Senator Markey. Good morning. I call the Subcommittee on 
Clean Air, Climate, and Nuclear Safety to order for this 
important hearing on vehicle emissions standards and clean 
vehicles.
    Thank you to my Ranking Member, Senator Ricketts, and to 
the Chairman and Ranking Member of the Committee on Environment 
and Public Works, Senator Carper and Senator Capito, for their 
helpful partnership in holding this very timely hearing.
    It is my pleasure to welcome my colleagues on the 
subcommittee, as well as our three witnesses. We appreciate 
your willingness to appear before our subcommittee today 
because, one day after Massachusetts celebrated Patriot's Day, 
we are here to discuss America's clean energy revolution, which 
is already well underway.
    Last week, the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) 
proposed historic new rules to strengthen vehicle emissions 
standards for cars and for trucks. Thanks to the Bipartisan 
Infrastructure Law (BIL), the CHIPS and Science Act, and the 
Inflation Reduction Act (IRA), we can be more ambitious in our 
standards than ever before because we are actively building a 
world in which we can meet and exceed those goals.
    Because of those bills, more than $135 billion will be 
invested to build America's electric vehicle future. We have 
unleashed incentives for clean cars and trucks while creating 
new American jobs in the process. We are putting billions of 
dollars toward new electric vehicles' charging stations, which 
will make clean cars an option for families across our Country.
    We are making clean vehicles more affordable. We are making 
them more accessible, and we are making them here in the United 
States. Companies are racing to take part in this revolution, 
announcing over $100 billion in battery investments alone.
    While we buildup our electric vehicle supply chain in the 
United States, we need roadside assistance for the remaining 
gas-guzzling cars and trucks on the roads to help fight climate 
change, save drivers money, and protect public health. That is 
where the EPA has to step in.
    Transportation emissions make up 27 percent of total 
greenhouse gas emissions in the United States, more than half 
of which comes from light duty vehicles, and a quarter of which 
comes from heavy duty vehicles and trucks. Cars and trucks also 
produce nitrogen oxides and other toxic pollution that 
increases asthma and cancer rates, harming public health and 
disproportionately affecting Black, Brown, and indigenous 
communities.
    To keep moving down the road to a safer, healthier, and 
more affordable future, we need strong greenhouse gas emission 
and multi-pollutant regulation for light duty and heavy-duty 
vehicles, we need a foot not on the gas, but on the 
accelerator. Those benefits are a bonanza of benefits to our 
climate, to drivers, and to our health. We need to make sure 
they also benefit union American workers.
    First, EPA's proposed rule for light duty vehicles for 
model year 2027 through at least 2032 would reduce carbon 
dioxide emissions from light duty vehicles by more than half 
compared to existing standards. EPA estimates that the Light 
and Medium Duty Rule could one, provide up to $1.6 trillion in 
net benefits through the lifetime of covered vehicles, avoid 
7.3 billion metric tons of carbon dioxide over 2027 to 2055, 
and save drivers up to $13,000 apiece in fuel savings and 
maintenance costs.
    Additionally, the EPA projects that 60 percent of new light 
duty vehicles sold by 2030 will be electric as a result of the 
proposed rule, overtaking President Biden's target for 50 
percent of new vehicle sales to be electric by 2030.
    The Light Duty Rule could be expanded upon, and I am 
interested to hear from our witnesses about what they 
recommend, but even so, it is an incredible start. The Heavy 
Duty Rule also makes progress and charts a new course for 
American industry, but we still need to make sure the Heavy 
Duty Rule does not stall out our efforts to regulate other 
pollutants like smog and particulate matter from trucks and 
other big vehicles.
    EPA projects that its Heavy Duty Rule will avoid 1.8 
billion tons of carbon dioxide emissions by 2055, provide net 
benefits of up to 350 billion through 2055, provide 12 billion 
in reduced reliance on oil imports, and result in a 50 percent 
zero-emissions vehicle penetration rate of vocational vehicles. 
Strong proposed regulations are critical to driving climate 
progress forward, but they are more doable than ever, thanks to 
the billions in clean vehicles investments passed by Congress.
    As our expert witnesses will explain, the clean vehicles 
revolution is not in our rearview mirror. It is right in front 
of us.
    Before we hear from our witnesses, and we thank you so much 
for joining us today, I want to turn for an opening statement 
from our Ranking Member, Senator Ricketts.

           OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. PETE RICKETTS, 
            U.S. SENATOR FROM THE STATE OF NEBRASKA

    Senator Ricketts. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.
    As we all know, last week, the EPA introduced or announced 
burdensome new regulations on emission requirements for 
American-made vehicles, including both light cars and heavy-
duty trucks. These detached-from-reality requirements are going 
to have a disastrous impact on the well-being of American 
families, American drivers, and American businesses.
    Rules like this tell States like mine that the EPA and 
Washington, DC. does not care about our quality of life and 
does not understand who we are. It restricts freedom, shrugs 
off the higher cost of electric vehicles while families are 
struggling, ignores supply chain and infrastructure challenges, 
and disregards a better solution like American biofuels like 
ethanol.
    This rulemaking claims to be technology-neutral while 
simultaneously touting on about the push toward the 
Administration's goal of an entirely electric vehicle America. 
Let us not forget the average cost of electric vehicles is 
around $65,000. That is about 33 percent, or a third higher, 
than the average cost of a car right now. Frankly, that is more 
than most American households' income. In Nebraska, you are 
basically asking the average family to spend their entire 
year's income on buying this car. This Administration wants to 
take Nebraska families' entire income to do that.
    As far as the claims that this rule will lower carbon 
emissions, the increased costs will actually have the opposite 
impact, because when you increase the cost of the average 
vehicle because you are going to drive this mandate for 
electric vehicles, that means new and used vehicles will become 
more expensive, which means people are going to hold on to them 
longer before being able to purchase a new vehicle, and that 
means that you are going to have more emissions.
    The EPA mandate also fails to address the many logistics 
challenges that come from a massive switch to EVs and what it 
poses. America lacks sufficient EV charging stations to cover 
the sharp increase in demand. President Biden's own Department 
of Energy map in the northern part of Nebraska shows no EV 
chargers on a 340-mile stretch of U.S. Highway 20 from Allen to 
Hay Springs. Many Nebraska communities are hundreds of miles 
from the nearest charging station.
    I hail from the Beef State, and I can guarantee you that 
electric trucks are really not practical when you are hauling 
livestock. You can not just pull over on the side of the road 
to charge for two hours when you are hauling a truckload of 
cattle in 90-degree heat. It does not work that way. It is just 
not feasible.
    In tandem with these rulemakings, President Biden has 
refused to support American energy production, going after 
traditional power plants, canceling lease sales, and refusing 
to expedite permits for new construction. Instead of developing 
our national resources, his policies are increasing our 
reliance on foreign adversaries.
    The American Transportation Research Institute (ATRI) says 
that full electrification of the U.S. vehicle fleet would 
utilize a large percentage of the Country's current electric 
generation capacity. Domestic long-haul trucking would use more 
than 10 percent of the electricity generated in our Country 
today, while an electric U.S. fleet would use more than 40 
percent. This will cause an incredible strain on the electric 
grid at a time when the Biden Administration is dragging its 
feet on permitting generation, transmission, and storage of 
energy of all types.
    While I am all for renewable energy production, and trust 
me, electric cars are cool. They have great torque, accelerate 
fast, that is cool stuff, this Administration is brushing over 
the need for reliable, baseload generation. Not to mention the 
fact that consumers paid 14.3 percent more for electricity last 
year on average than in 2021, more than double the overall 6.5 
percent rise in prices. This is according to the Consumer Price 
Index data released at the beginning of this year.
    ATRI's analysis also found that tens of millions of tons of 
cobalt, graphite, lithium, and nickel will be needed to replace 
the existing U.S. fleet with battery electric vehicles, placing 
high demand on raw materials. For some materials, 
electrification of the U.S. vehicle fleet would require almost 
35 years of the current global output.
    According to the U.S. Geological Survey, the Chinese 
Communist Party controls around 80 percent of the world's 
production of rare earth elements, including elements like 
graphite and neodymium that are used in EVs. President Biden's 
own Defense Department concluded in 2021 that an overreliance 
on the Chinese Communist Party creates risk of disruption and 
politicized trade practices, yet his EPA is moving forward with 
a mandate that will increase this risk.
    The Biden Administration has also excluded liquid fuels, 
which support jobs in rural communities across our Country. In 
Nebraska, we produce affordable, reliable, and clean-burning 
ethanol and biodiesel. Renewable fuels are a here and now 
technology proven to work in heavy duty vehicles.
    Right here in D.C., for example, the garbage and recycling 
trucks operate on pure biodiesel, a fuel produced from waste 
fats and oils. Just last month, a poll showed that 70 percent 
of the poll responders support increasing the availability of 
E15 to help lower fuel prices and support energy independence. 
That same poll shows that responders strongly oppose government 
mandates related to their vehicle purchase options.
    A bipartisan coalition of farm State Senators has long 
worked to promote renewable fuels, a tried-and-true technology 
for which the infrastructure already exists today, lowers 
carbon footprints, and saves consumers money at the pump, all 
while supporting our communities in rural America.
    There are many steps that we can take to support this here 
and now solution, and we must adopt a fair and consistent 
emissions model to truly compare these fuel sources apples to 
apples.
    In short, emissions reductions technology should be 
consumer-driven, economically viable, and operate on a level 
playing field for all technologies. I am exploring options to 
push back on this Administration's overreach. I look forward to 
discussing these issues with our panel of witnesses. Thank you 
all for attending today.
    I would also like to ask unanimous consent to submit four 
letters that I have here from the American Truck Dealers, 
Growth Energy, Renewable Fuels Nebraska, and the Renewable 
Fuels Association.
    Senator Markey. Without objection, so ordered.
    [The referenced information follows:]
    [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
    
    Senator Ricketts. Thank you.
    Senator Markey. We thank you, Senator Ricketts.
    We will now turn to our esteemed panel of witnesses. We 
will hear from them in this order. First, we will hear from 
Kathy Harris. Ms. Harris is the Senior Advocate for Clean 
Vehicles and Fuels for the NRDC. Before that, she worked as a 
planner for the State of Delaware addressing policies and 
programs to mitigate emissions in the transportation sector.
    Next, we will hear from Mr. Chris Harto. Mr. Harto is the 
Senior Policy Analyst on Transportation and Energy for Consumer 
Reports, where he leads research on electric vehicles, fuel 
economy, energy efficiency, and other energy issues. He has 
conducted 20 years of policy research experience for government 
agencies, national laboratories, universities, and non-
governmental organizations (NGO).
    Finally, we will hear from Andrew Boyle. Mr. Boyle is Co-
President of Boyle Transportation based in the great 
Commonwealth of Massachusetts and is the first Vice-Chairman 
for the American Trucking Association. Mr. Boyle is a board 
member of the American Transportation Research Institute and a 
past chairman of the Trucking Association of Massachusetts. He 
grew up in Natick, Massachusetts, the home of Doug Flutie, 
amongst many other very important citizens of the history of 
Natick.
    We thank you all so much for agreeing to join us today. Ms. 
Harris from the NRDC, we welcome your testimony first.

STATEMENT OF KATHY HARRIS, SENIOR ADVOCATE, CLEAN VEHICLES AND 
            FUELS, NATURAL RESOURCE DEFENSE COUNCIL

    Ms. Harris. Chairman Markey, Ranking Member Ricketts, and 
esteemed members of the subcommittee, thank you for the 
opportunity today to discuss the benefits of cleaner cars in 
the United States and the importance of the efforts by this 
body and other branches of the Federal Government in helping 
accelerate the transition to a clean transportation system.
    My name is Kathy Harris, and I am a Senior Advocate leading 
the Clean Cars Portfolio at the Natural Resources Defense 
Council, or NRDC. NRDC is an international nonprofit of 
scientists, lawyers, and environmental specialists committed to 
improving public health, tackling the climate crisis, and 
creating a more affordable, clean energy future.
    Zero emission cars and trucks provide the United States 
with an opportunity to ensure a win for public health and air 
quality, a win for consumers' pocketbooks and consumer choice, 
and a win for our economy and our global competitiveness.
    The transportation sector is the largest source of 
greenhouse gas emissions in the United States, but is also a 
major contributor to nitrogen oxides, particulate matter, and 
other toxic pollutants. These emissions are not only 
detrimental to our climate and air quality, but also to human 
health.
    The vehicle tailpipe standards announced by EPA last week 
will play a key role in improving air quality for communities 
across the Nation, especially communities that have been 
historically overburdened by vehicle pollution. EPA projects 
that their proposed standards will reduce tailpipe emissions by 
56 percent by 2032 from new cars, SUVs, and pickup trucks.
    These ambitious and achievable standards work by setting 
technology-neutral emissions levels for new cars and trucks. 
Based on automaker commitments and investments, increasing 
driver demand and the incentives from Congress, EPA projects 
that manufacturers will choose to reduce emissions from their 
fleets through increasing the number of zero emission and 
electric vehicles sold.
    Electric and zero emission vehicle technology is a key 
strategy for reducing pollution from the transportation sector, 
as they release zero tailpipe emissions, improving air quality 
and health. Drivers also increasingly want these vehicles for 
these public health benefits in addition to the lower cost of 
ownership of the vehicles compared to gas-powered cars.
    EPA estimates that strong emissions standards will save the 
average consumer $12,000 over the lifetime of the vehicle. The 
auto industry has already invested billions of dollars in the 
United States to support a transition to zero emission 
vehicles. Many manufacturers have announced plans to increase 
electric vehicles in their offerings, in some cases completely 
phasing out gasoline vehicles from their lineups over the next 
decade.
    One thing that the Biden Administration and Members of 
Congress have made clear is that American workers and 
communities must be able to capture the public health and 
economic gains associated with transitioning to electric 
vehicles and building a clean economy. Strong vehicle standards 
from the Environmental Protection Agency will play a key role 
in ensuring this occurs.
    Strong clean vehicle standards complement the historic 
Federal investments from Congress. The Inflation Reduction Act 
will not only help to make new and used electric vehicles more 
affordable, but it also provides important incentives to 
increase domestic manufacturing and access to clean vehicles, 
helping the Country become more competitive globally and 
bringing more of these public health and work force benefits to 
our shores.
    The Infrastructure Law passed in 2021 will help to build 
out a robust network of over 500,000 charging stations 
throughout the Country to help ensure that drivers will have 
the ability to charge their cars reliably, while tax credits 
under the Inflation Reduction Act will help catalyze many more 
charging ports being installed across the Country.
    It is clear that clean vehicles are a win for the United 
States' air and public health, a win for consumers, and a win 
for the economy. We appreciate Congress and the Federal 
Government for their leadership in supporting the transition to 
a clean cars and clean air future.
    Thank you for allowing me to speak with you today. I look 
forward to answering any questions that you may have.
    [The prepared statement of Ms. Harris follows:]
   [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
    
    Senator Markey. Thank you, Ms. Harris, very much.
    Next, we are going to hear from Chris Harto from Consumer 
Reports.

    STATEMENT OF CHRIS HARTO, SENIOR ENERGY POLICY ANALYST, 
                        CONSUMER REPORTS

    Mr. Harto. Good afternoon, Chair Markey, Ranking Member 
Ricketts, and members of the subcommittee. My name is Chris 
Harto, and I am a Senior Sustainability Policy Analyst at 
Consumer Reports.
    I thank the committee for inviting CR to testify today in 
support of the proposed EPA greenhouse gas standards for model 
years 2027 through 2032 and on the benefits that they will 
bring to American consumers.
    CR is a nonprofit, nonpartisan organization. One of the 
things that CR is best known for is testing cars. Every year, 
our testers drive about half a million miles to put new cars 
through their paces, and we work with policymakers like you to 
advance policies for safer and cleaner cars.
    For decades, Federal greenhouse gas emissions standards 
have played a critical role in reducing overall emissions from 
the transportation sector, while encouraging automakers to 
innovate and offer increased clean vehicle options for 
consumers.
    The proposed EPA standards, if enacted, would bring 
cleaner, cost-saving transportation technologies to consumers 
faster. The rule will save consumers money while reducing 
spending on healthcare tied to air pollution and disaster 
recovery tied to greenhouse gas emissions.
    I have three main points I would like to make based on CR's 
analysis. First, EPA's standards are achievable. Second, 
consumer demand for EVs is far outpacing supply. Third, EVs 
save consumers money.
    The proposal for light duty vehicle standards is ambitious, 
but achievable. EPA's analysis is that EVs are likely to be the 
most cost-effective compliance pathway, but not the only option 
for automakers. Automakers can also use a mix of improvements 
in internal combustion fuel efficiency, conventional hybrids, 
plug-in hybrids, and even hydrogen fuel cell vehicles to 
comply.
    EPA estimated that while an EV-only compliance pathway 
would require about two-thirds of vehicles sold to be EVs by 
2032, industry is already on track to deliver around 50 percent 
EV sales by 2030, according to commitments made by automakers.
    Further, consumer challenges, such as charging 
infrastructure and affordability will only continue to improve 
due to the unprecedented investments from the Bipartisan 
Infrastructure Law and the Inflation Reduction Act, which 
provide funding for charging infrastructure and consumer tax 
credits, respectively.
    Consumers want EVs. Consumer demand for EVs has been 
soaring, increasing 350 percent between 2020 and 2022. 
Unfortunately, automakers have not been keeping up. There are 
now around 45 percent of consumers who say they would 
definitely buy an EV for every EV being manufactured. 
Meanwhile, 30 percent of new car buyers are not even 
considering a conventional non-hybrid vehicle.
    CR estimates that an EV-only compliance pathway would 
result in the production of enough EVs for approximately 25 
percent of Americans to own one by the end of 2032. A 2022 CR 
survey found that already, 36 percent of American adults were 
definitely or seriously considering an electric vehicle if they 
were to buy a vehicle today, indicating the consumer demand may 
already exceed what is needed to comply with these standards.
    Despite the rapid growth in consumer demand, people can not 
buy vehicles that do not exist. Consumers who want an EV right 
now often have to deal with long waitlists and dealer markups. 
Automakers are making investments to improve supply, but 
unfortunately, the growth and supply has still been lagging. 
EPA's proposal should help automakers catch up.
    EVs are cheaper to own. A 2020 analysis by CR found that 
EVs are cheaper to own than comparable gasoline vehicles, even 
when factoring in higher purchase prices. EVs save an average 
of 60 percent on fuel and 50 percent on repairs and 
maintenance. This translates to between around $6,000 and 
$10,000 over the life of the vehicle, even factoring in higher 
prices.
    Higher purchase prices, however, are likely to be 
temporary. As of January, automakers and battery manufacturers 
already plan to invest $210 billion in U.S. manufacturing by 
2030. A 2022 analysis by ICCT found that EVs are rapidly 
approaching cost parity with conventional vehicles, even with a 
range of over 300 miles.
    In conclusion, EPA's proposed light duty vehicle standards 
will hit the accelerator, helping to drive automakers to catch 
up to consumer demand for cleaner vehicles. We see these rules 
as a win-win for consumers and the climate, putting over a 
trillion dollars back into consumers' pockets while delivering 
massive reductions in air pollution and greenhouse gas 
emissions.
    [The prepared statement of Mr. Harto follows:]
    [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
    
    Senator Markey. Thank you, Mr. Harto.
    Finally, we are going to hear from Andrew Boyle from the 
American Trucking Association. Welcome.

STATEMENT OF ANDREW BOYLE, CO-PRESIDENT, BOYLE TRANSPORTATION, 
        FIRST VICE-CHAIR, AMERICAN TRUCKING ASSOCIATIONS

    Mr. Boyle. Chairman Markey, Ranking Member Ricketts, and 
members of the subcommittee, thank you for the opportunity to 
testify.
    In addition to serving as first Vice-Chair of the American 
Trucking Association, I am Co-President of Boyle 
Transportation, a trucking firm headquartered in Massachusetts. 
My company has the honor of doing important work delivering 
life-saving medicine and transporting critical materiel for the 
U.S. Military.
    We employ 200 people, including 160 of the Nation's finest 
professional truck drivers, and we are recognized as having the 
No. 1 work environment among smaller fleets in all of the U.S. 
and Canada in 2020 and 2021. Boyle is a subsidiary of Andlauer 
Healthcare Group, a highly regarded logistics provider to the 
North American healthcare industry.
    We take tremendous pride in our environmental record. An 
EPA SmartWay partner since 2008, we have been a SmartWay high 
performer for five straight years and received EPA's 
Environmental Merit Award. In 2021, we became the first 
trucking company in North America to achieve certification for 
the rigorous ISO 14001 Environmental Management System. Our 
headquarters is solar-powered.
    ATA shares that commitment to sustainability as it 
represents a diverse industry which includes carriers ranging 
from enterprise fleets to single truck operations, and which 
serves every economic sector.
    Trucks move 72 percent of America's freight tonnage, a 
number that will continue to grow. Essentially everything 
touches a truck. Thanks to collaboration between industry and 
government, today's clean diesel trucks produce 99 percent 
lower emissions than those from the 1980's. Sixty trucks today 
emit what just a single truck emitted in 1988.
    This progress is owed to both aggressive innovation and 
technically achievable national standards. We were aligned with 
another EPA emissions standard slated to take effect in 2027, 
which will reduce NOx by yet another 83 percent until EPA 
recently announced that it was going to reopen that rule. How 
are manufacturers and fleets meant to comply with regulations 
that whimsically change with political preference?
    EPA also recently decided to create a State patchwork that 
undermines Federal leadership by approving a waiver for 
California's so-called Advanced Clean Trucks Rule, which is 
heavily predicated on the adoption of electric trucks.
    While we share the passion for EVs in cars and light duty 
vehicles, projecting an automotive construct onto trucking 
industry dynamics is a massive mistake. Let me be clear: if 
battery electric trucks had adequate range, there was adequate 
charging infrastructure, and utilities could deliver the power, 
we truckers would be delighted, but let me explain our reality.
    Today, a clean diesel truck can spend 15 minutes fueling 
anywhere in the Country and then have a range of about 1,200 
miles before fueling again. In contrast, today's long-haul 
battery electric trucks have a range of about 150 to maybe 330 
miles and can take up to 10 hours to charge. For the same 
1,200-mile journey, we would go from 15 minutes of fueling a 
clean diesel truck once to charging today's BEV four to eight 
times for dozens and dozens of hours. This is assuming there 
are chargers where you need them.
    We would need far more trucks to haul the same amount of 
freight, and each of those trucks would cost two to three times 
a comparable diesel truck. Converting the U.S. fleet of Class A 
trucks to battery electric would require a $1 trillion 
investment, which ultimately would flow to consumers.
    We welcome the opportunity to provide real-world, factual, 
and constructive input into the legislative and rulemaking 
process. We recognize that most people do not understand how 
the trucking industry works behind the scenes to supply the 
American public, but we can not allow unrealistic timelines, a 
State patchwork, and technically unachievable regulations to 
set trucking up for failure. Remember, we deliver food, 
medicine, baby formula. Failure is not merely inconvenient; it 
is catastrophic.
    Thank you, and I look forward to answering your questions.
    [The prepared statement of Mr. Boyle follows:]
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    Senator Markey. Thank you, Mr. Boyle, very much.
    Now, we will turn to questions from our panel. I will begin 
by just pointing out that when I served in the House of 
Representatives, I authored the fuel economy language in the 
2007 Energy Independence and Security Act that kickstarted the 
new race to the top for vehicle efficiency, and that 
legislation made it clear that we must set the maximum feasible 
standard for fuel economy.
    The EPA standards are no different. They must ``reflect the 
greatest degree of emissions reduction achievable through 
available technology.'' Well, in the Inflation Reduction Act, 
the Bipartisan Infrastructure Law, and the CHIPS and Science 
Act, Congress invested more than $135 billion to make clean 
vehicle technology more available than ever.
    To each of the witnesses, do you believe that investments 
from these bills are making clean vehicles more affordable and 
available? We will begin with you, Ms. Harris, and Mr. Harto, 
then you, Mr. Boyle.
    Ms. Harris. Thank you so much for your question, Senator.
    I think the short answer is yes. We are seeing that the 
upfront prices of electric vehicles costs are reducing, and 
that is in large part due to the Inflation Reduction Act and 
the tax incentives passed by this body, but additionally, we 
know even today that the total cost of ownership of electric 
vehicles is still cheaper than a comparable gasoline car. We 
are seeing an increase of desire for these vehicles from the 
American people, as well.
    Senator Markey. Meaning that over the life expectancy of 
the vehicle, you spend so much less on electricity than you do 
on oil?
    Ms. Harris. Yes, and the maintenance costs of the vehicles 
are lower, as well.
    Senator Markey. Yes. Mr. Harto?
    Mr. Harto. Yes. We do believe that these policies are 
helping to accelerate and bring more EVs to consumers cheaper. 
The more automakers do something, the better they get at it. 
Learning by doing and economies of scale are two of the biggest 
drivers of cost declines in any industry. The more clean 
vehicles automakers deliver, the cheaper they will be able to 
offer them to consumers.
    Senator Markey. Let me go to you, Mr. Boyle. What 
incentives are most helpful to the trucking industry in the 
legislation thus far to increase the ambition to move to clean 
vehicles?
    Mr. Boyle. Thus far, the adoption of BEVs, so in a heavy-
duty truck, the upcharge is roughly $300,000. The incentives 
barely cover the Federal excise tax, which is an issue we would 
like to bring up, because I know some of your colleagues have 
been advocating for us. A huge impediment to buying newer, 
cleaner trucks, even today's trucks, is the Federal excise tax 
that was installed more than 100 years ago to finance World War 
I.
    A big issue when we look at the emissions in aggregate 
right now is not so much that today's trucks are not clean 
enough, it is just that of the fleet on the road, not enough 
are today's trucks. This is one lever we have to kind of make 
it more affordable for fleets and operators to buy today's 
clean trucks.
    Senator Markey. Yes. My father was a truck driver, so I 
grew up with a truck driver as my father, so I am very 
conscious of this profession and the need to have these 
vehicles be able to operate.
    Mr. Harto, would the investments which are being made in EV 
charging help to deal with the range anxiety that people have 
had in purchasing an EV in the past?
    Mr. Harto. Absolutely. Charging infrastructure is one of 
the biggest barriers to EV adoption in the U.S., and the 
Bipartisan Infrastructure Law provides significant investments 
to especially roll out those chargers in areas where the free 
market is lagging, States like Senator Ricketts' Nebraska, as 
well as low-income areas of the Country.
    It is really targeted at filling the gaps where the market 
is missing to help consumers feel confident that they can buy 
an electric vehicle.
    Senator Markey. Ms. Harris, how quickly is this transition 
occurring in terms of consumers' demand and the purchases of 
electric vehicles, especially the light duty, the SUVs?
    Ms. Harris. We are seeing a great increase in the interest 
in electric vehicles. Last year, electric vehicle sales were 
about 4.5 percent over the course of the year, and in 2021, 
they were about 4.5 percent. In 2022, that rose to about seven 
percent over time. We have even seen that in December 2022, 
that was almost up to nine or 10 percent sales, as well.
    So there is a continuous increase in interest in these 
vehicles, and we are seeing that demand increasing annually.
    Senator Markey. Beautiful. Thank you. Senator Ricketts?
    Senator Ricketts. I will yield to Senator Lummis.
    Senator Lummis. Thank you very much, Senator Ricketts, and 
thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    Ms. Harris, do you believe it is appropriate to analyze 
only the tailpipe when calculating greenhouse gas emissions?
    Ms. Harris. Thank you so much for your question, Senator. I 
believe that electric vehicles and the tailpipe emissions from 
the transportation sector are a major source of toxic 
pollutions in the United States.
    Senator Lummis. OK, so what about the fact that method 
misses significant emissions generated through the extraction 
of rare earth minerals in foreign countries that are needed to 
create EV batteries?
    Ms. Harris. There have been many studies that have shown 
that electric vehicles today from well to wheel are still 
cleaner than compared to a gasoline vehicle.
    Senator Lummis. However, you have not analyzed the need for 
rare earth minerals and the mining, the significant mining that 
has to occur. Can you confirm that lithium, cobalt, manganese, 
nickel, and graphite are all critical to the manufacturing of 
electric vehicle batteries?
    Ms. Harris. Many of the batteries that are currently made 
today for electric vehicles do require those minerals.
    Senator Lummis. Do you know which country is the third-
largest producer of lithium and controls 60 percent of global 
battery-grade lithium refining capacity?
    Ms. Harris. I do not have that number in front of me today.
    Senator Lummis. Well, it is China. Do you know which 
country is responsible for over 50 percent of cobalt exports?
    Ms. Harris. I do not have that number in front of me today.
    Senator Lummis. It is the Democratic Republic of the Congo. 
Do you know which country is responsible for nearly 75 percent 
of global exports of manganese?
    Ms. Harris. I do not have that number in front of me today.
    Senator Lummis. It is China. Do you know which country is 
responsible for the most exports of nickel?
    Ms. Harris. I do not have that number in front of me today.
    Senator Lummis. That would be Indonesia. Do you know which 
country is responsible for nearly half of the global graphite 
exports?
    Ms. Harris. I do not have that number in front of me today.
    Senator Lummis. That is also China. Do any of these 
countries have anywhere near the stringent environmental 
regulations the United States has?
    Ms. Harris. I cannot speak to that today.
    Senator Lummis. You do not know? You do not know whether 
these countries are mining in a more environmentally friendly 
way than the United States?
    Ms. Harris. Oh, I am sorry. I misunderstood the question. 
Could you please repeat it?
    Senator Lummis. Do any of these countries have anywhere 
near the stringent environmental regulations that the United 
States has?
    Ms. Harris. My apologies. Not to my awareness.
    Senator Lummis. If climate change really is a worldwide 
problem, how does shifting the responsibility of mineral 
extraction to these countries help us reduce worldwide 
emissions?
    Ms. Harris. Thank you so much for the question. I will say 
that there are many investments and incentives that are 
happening here in the United States to bring the supply chain 
to the United States.
    Senator Lummis. I have a rare earth mine in my State that 
has been trying to open for over 10 years and still does not 
have the environmental permitting to open. There is no way that 
the standards and the materials needed to produce and 
manufacture in the United States can happen in 10 years.
    To ramp up the supply even in foreign countries that have 
far lower environmental standards, not to mention human labor 
standards, this is not possible to do. It is going to take four 
to six times more product, and then the mining and milling of 
that product over a 10-year period to meet the regulatory 
standards that the EPA is advocating for.
    It is going to raise greenhouse gases all over the world, 
including in China, Indonesia, the Democratic Republic of the 
Congo. It is going to create child labor and human labor issues 
that are deplorable. We are doing that all so we can provide a 
vehicle that costs $65,000 to the American consumer, and that 
if you are in an accident, you have to replace the whole 
vehicle, because the battery can not be damaged? To me, there 
is really nothing about this idea that is reflective of global 
reality.
    Mr. Chairman, I would like to enter into the record this 
article about the gamble on critical minerals that is being 
undertaken with regard to this proposed EPA regulation.
    Senator Markey. Without objection, so ordered.
    [The referenced information follows:]
   [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
    
    Senator Lummis. Thank you. I yield back.
    Senator Markey. OK. Senator Cramer is recognized.
    Senator Cramer. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you, 
witnesses.
    I have to say, I have taken more notes while I was 
listening to Senator Lummis than I came with. A couple things 
that struck me right away, as well as listening to your earlier 
testimony, Mr. Boyle. We acknowledge that they are heavier. We 
have acknowledged they are more expensive. Maybe the incentives 
do not even cover the excise tax.
    What does it cost to insure a vehicle like a large truck 
that has these extra costs and weights and an infrastructure, 
frankly, not designed for 5,000 more pounds per axle, and those 
kinds of things?
    Mr. Boyle. Yes. It is hard to tell because we are so, the 
consumer-facing EV product is so much further ahead, right? We 
are talking about a very heavy duty, under high stress, 
corrosive environment. Just so we are clear on the scale of the 
issue, each electric vehicle battery for a heavy-duty truck 
weighs 8,000 pounds. You would need at least two of them. We 
are talking the weight of four or five cars.
    My friends and peers in the industry nationwide who have 
tried to make efforts to put in, say, hey, I am going to 
convert a dozen forklifts to electric, or I want to tee up a 
facility for 30 electric trucks, there is no power. The 
utilities come back, the cities come back and say, is this some 
kind of joke?
    One friend tried to put in Illinois a facility, teed up for 
30 trucks for electrification. The city came back and said, 
this is some kind of joke. You are asking for more draw than 
the entire city requires.
    Just to give you an idea, 30, 50 trucks, that is like a 
five-or six-megawatt application. The factory that makes the 
trucks is a two-megawatt factory.
    We are playing checkers right now. We would be delighted to 
have more choices. If the power and infrastructure is not 
available, it is not even a consideration for trucking, yet 
California wants to make it effective next January as the only 
choice. No diesel trucks, no OEM is going to be compliant with 
California Carbon Standard for a diesel electric truck starting 
in January. They will have product due to credits and so forth, 
but none is going to be technically compliant.
    What are we talking about here? We are trying to serve the 
Country and supply commodities that are essential to everyday 
life, so before any of the, this is not a choice, we have the 
cart before the horse right now.
    Senator Cramer. Well, and the fight over the infrastructure 
piece is not a small matter, either. When you start talking 
about all these socialized costs for a grid that covers every 
inch and socializes the cost of every little generator and 
every street corner, another issue I am not suggesting we get 
into right now.
    But building even more on what Senator Lummis was talking 
about with regard to the supply chain, the Congo, Indonesia, 
China, and the human rights violations and the work force 
challenges, certainly standards that do not meet ours, to me, 
those are of greater importance than some of the other issues 
we are trying to solve.
    Here is the other irony. She has an opportunity in her own 
State that is not being done. We know of two critical minerals 
mines that have been shut down before they even had an EA in 
this Country, by this Administration, this year, one in 
Minnesota, Twin Metals, and one in Alaska, Pebble Mine. You are 
right, the cart is before the horse. Let us build the horse and 
find the supply chain that can produce some of these things 
before we start incentivizing things.
    The other thing I would bring up, unlike Senator Lummis, I 
do not come from a tropical environment like Wyoming. I come 
from the arctic State of North Dakota.
    [Laughter.]
    Senator Cramer. Or Nebraska, which is balmy by comparison. 
The performance in cold weather is not just unproven, it is 
proven to be horrible. I just can not imagine pushing this 
standard on North Dakota.
    Mr. Boyle. That is right, sir. The battery degrades in cold 
conditions, up to about a third. That range I talked about, 180 
to 150 to 330, it is degraded by 30 percent.
    Senator Cramer. Is range fairly important in the trucking 
industry?
    Mr. Boyle. If you want to talk about range anxiety, we 
truckers would need therapy.
    Senator Cramer. I bet. With that, my point is made. I 
appreciate you all being here, and I yield. Thank you.
    Senator Markey. Senator Ricketts?
    Senator Ricketts. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    Mr. Boyle, you talked about the trucking industry. Talk a 
little bit about, the trucks are heavier, you said, like 8,000 
pounds for a battery. Does that mean that you can not haul as 
much, your payload is reduced? Is that correct?
    Mr. Boyle. That is correct, which means more trucks to haul 
the same amount of freight.
    Senator Ricketts. You are going to need more trucks on the 
road. Does that mean that consumers are going to have to put up 
with more trucks on the road as they are driving around, right, 
because there would be more traffic?
    Mr. Boyle. Certainly.
    Senator Ricketts. Is there a shortage of truck drivers in 
your industry today?
    Mr. Boyle. We estimate about roughly 70,000, 72,000 short 
currently.
    Senator Ricketts. However, you would need more truck 
drivers if you are going to need more trucks, is that fair?
    Mr. Boyle. Yes, sir.
    Senator Ricketts. OK, so talk to me about what your 
experience is from your industry about some of your friends you 
have talked about doing it, something along those lines of more 
trucks, how many more trucks are we talking?
    Mr. Boyle. Yes. We have members of ATA who have limited 
scope operations where they are testing BEVs. What they have 
found is that they need about a three-to-two or occasionally 
two-to-one ratio of trucks, meaning for every route and mission 
that one truck would do in an internal combustion, reliability 
was high, they now have to use two BEVs due to charging 
downtime, reliability, et cetera.
    Senator Ricketts. Is it fair to say that is more expensive?
    Mr. Boyle. Certainly.
    Senator Ricketts. One of the things, also, that you were 
talking about is, if you have this cost, and also the tractor 
trailers themselves, I was told by somebody in the industry 
that a regular tractor trailer diesel runs $180,000. These are 
about $500,000. Is that ballpark correct?
    Mr. Boyle. Yes. Yes, so for the tractor part of a tractor 
trailer, about $180,000 to $200,000 for a sleeper truck and 
then, in comparison to the $450,000 thousand price point for a 
battery.
    Senator Ricketts. I just want to reemphasize something you 
said in your testimony. Who, ultimately, is going to pay for 
this, I think you said, a trillion dollars in additional costs? 
Who is going to pay for that?
    Mr. Boyle. Ultimately, it flows to the consumer.
    Senator Ricketts. The American consumer will end up paying 
that.
    Mr. Boyle. Yes.
    Senator Ricketts. Now, the American consumer is going to 
have to foot the bill for all this so forth, and I think that 
there was an ATRI study that showed that the trucking industry 
used about 10 percent of our electric power generation?
    Mr. Boyle. I think it is actually more, sir. It is closer 
to 14 percent, so we would be putting an incremental load of 14 
percent on the grid.
    Senator Ricketts. OK. Mr. Harto, can you help me? We have 
this one study that talked about, trucks would need 14 percent 
more, is that 14 percent more, or 14 percent overall power 
generation, Mr. Boyle?
    Mr. Boyle. Effectively, it means we need 14 percent more 
power generation, incremental.
    Senator Ricketts. Got it. I think the electric vehicles, if 
you electrify the entire fleet, it is 40 percent of our current 
power capacity generation. That is a study out there right now.
    Are you aware of, are there studies where somebody has put 
pencil to paper to see how much more we would have to increase 
our power generation that has different numbers than what we 
just talked about here?
    Mr. Harto. Yes. The United States Department of Energy 
(USDOE) research labs, I forget which ones, have done this type 
of analysis. I know at least for the light duty vehicle sector, 
we are looking at increased growth in generation demand of 
about one percent per year, which is well within what the 
electricity industry has done in the past, when we deployed AC.
    Senator Ricketts. Really, Mr. Harto, one percent per year, 
when Gavin Newsom last year announced within the same week that 
he wanted to ban the sale of all internal combustion engines in 
California by 2035, and then told people with electric 
vehicles, you can not charge them in the afternoon, because the 
grid can not handle it?
    Mr. Harto. Yes.
    Senator Ricketts. Didn't that seem like a disconnect to 
you? It does not seem like a disconnect to you?
    Mr. Harto. It is about one percent per year in overall 
generation need. As well, utilities have a lot of tools to move 
around when EVs charge. Time of use rates, managed charging, 
eventually we will have vehicle-to-grid technology where EVs, 
when they are not being used, can push power back to the grid 
and help get through those peak periods in the late afternoon, 
when everybody is running their AC, everybody is coming home 
and cooking dinner, and demand is very high.
    Senator Ricketts. When you say manage, when you say 
managing your charging, you are talking about like Gavin Newsom 
is talking about management, do not charge it in the afternoon. 
Is that what you are saying?
    Mr. Harto. You can plug in, you can have your car sitting 
in your driveway, plugged in, and your utility can just switch 
it on and off for a few minutes, for a few hours. Typically, 
you only need it charging for a couple hours a day.
    Senator Ricketts. If they can do that, why isn't California 
doing that right now? Why would he have to tell people, do not 
charge your cars?
    Mr. Harto. It still takes a little bit. We are in the first 
inning of the EV transition. A lot of this stuff is going to 
get a lot better as we scale up.
    Senator Ricketts. Eventually. OK, thank you Mr. Harto. 
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    Senator Markey. Thank you, Senator Ricketts. If Senator 
Merkley is ready, or I could go for another round and then 
recognize you. Are you ready to go now? OK.
    Let me come back to you, Mr. Harto. Is it not true that the 
Inflation Reduction Act protects against the use of minerals 
from countries of concern that make vehicles ineligible for the 
tax credit if they are using minerals from China, from Russia, 
from countries of concern?
    Mr. Harto. Absolutely. The Inflation Reduction Act puts 
strong incentives in place for automakers to realign their 
supply chains and secure them away from countries of concern.
    Senator Markey. Yes. Countries of concern is just another 
way of saying, countries we are not really confident of having 
the correct environmental standards, or that we can trust them 
as a national strategic partner for a transition as important 
as this. Is that correct?
    Mr. Harto. Yes, that is correct.
    Senator Markey. Right now, we are hearing some complaints 
from some automakers that the new IRS rules are not going to 
allow their vehicles to qualify because they are importing too 
many materials from China. Is that correct?
    Mr. Harto. Yes, that is correct, but many of those 
automakers are rapidly moving to realign their supply chains in 
order to qualify for these very strong incentives.
    Senator Markey. In other words, you heard Senator Lummis go 
down this whole list of concerns, which is obviously the whole 
point of the CHIPS Act, the whole point of the Inflation 
Reduction Act, the whole point of the Infrastructure Bill.
    It is just to say to China, we do not need your materials 
anymore, and to Russia, we do not need your oil any more than 
we need your caviar, and to Saudi Arabia, we do not need your 
oil any more than we need your sand. We are fine; you can keep 
it. We are moving in a new direction.
    That is really what those three big bills are all about. Is 
it not true, Mr. Harto, that is the goal?
    Mr. Harto. Yes, that is correct.
    Senator Markey. Yes, we are going to be in a little 
transition period right now, obviously, where there will be a 
little bit of a grace period for some of these materials to be 
used, but after that, we are on to a whole new era where we are 
not only using materials from countries that we have close 
partnerships with, but also that we are going to make in 
America. Go through that, Mr. Harto, a little bit.
    Mr. Harto. Yes. Large portions of the world's reserves of 
critical minerals are actually from countries like Canada, 
Australia, and Chile, with which we have strong trade 
partnerships with. Again, automakers are working hard to 
realign their supply chains to meet these standards.
    Senator Markey. Are they making that transition?
    Mr. Harto. The massive investments that they are putting 
into this transition to electric vehicles say that they are.
    Senator Markey. They say that they are.
    Ms. Harris, there are some complaints that this is too 
ambitious, but you are saying the real world says no, there is 
a big appetite for these vehicles.
    Ms. Harris. Yes, that is correct. To Mr. Harto's point, 
automakers have already announced over $210 billion of 
investments here in the United States to help with that 
transition and, as you mentioned, help bring that supply chain 
here to the United States, which will continue to increase the 
benefits to the economy and to drivers.
    Senator Markey. Yes. I had this problem, actually, back in 
the 1990's. I was chairman over Telecommunications, and 
unfortunately, Alexander Graham Bell would have still 
recognized our phone system, those black rotary dial phones, or 
a cell phone that was the size of a brick that Gordon Gekko was 
using in Wall Street. How can we move to the future?
    So, my bill, that I was the principal Democratic author of 
in 1996, said, break up all these monopolies. They are 
stultifying technological growth, and by 2000, four years after 
the bill passed, we have a broadband revolution. We had a dot 
com bubble, but everyone had broadband except for the most 
rural parts of the Country and the poorest people in our 
Country. It had just been held up.
    We heard from the auto industry for so many years, we can 
not do this, you do not know how hard it is, if you knew what 
you were asking for, you would not even raise the subject. 
Well, now, of course, finally, the auto industry is accepting 
the future. Now, they let Tesla get a huge lead on them by 
maintaining their denial that you could do it. The battery 
technology, all of these new technologies, they are all 
happening and improving very rapidly.
    The interesting thing about the 1996 Telecommunications Act 
is that it created a broadband revolution. What is the 
electricity revolution? The electricity revolution is a 
broadband revolution. You can manage the electricity coming in 
off the ocean, off the prairies, off of roofs. You can manage 
the electricity inside of people's homes and buildings, and you 
can manage automobiles and trucks, feeding electricity back 
into the home or into the grid.
    All of that is now possible because of the broadband 
revolution, and this revolution is going to create all new 
revolutions in battery storage technologies, in the ability for 
us to be able to imagine where our electricity comes from, or 
what kind of vehicles we have.
    There has always been really, very strong opposition to 
these kinds of technological revolutions, and I understand 
that, because it is just part of looking at the world in a 
rearview mirror. We have to be sensitive to industries that are 
going to be impacted. The legislation, the regulations are 
trying to do that, and I am sure there are some accommodations 
that can be made.
    Nonetheless, because of the imperative of us to back out 
imported oil, national security issue, to reduce greenhouse 
gases going up, national security issue, we really do not have 
a choice. This bill is saying to China, to Russia, to other 
countries, we are not going to need your minerals anymore. We 
are not going to need your parts anymore. I think that is a big 
part of what the message is that is being sent to the private 
sector, and it is largely responding.
    We are going to have to make some adjustments, obviously, 
but I still think that we have an incredible future that we can 
look forward to. Let me turn and recognize the Chairman of the 
full committee, Senator Carper.
    Senator Carper. Thanks. I appreciate, Senator Merkley, your 
letting me slip ahead of you. Thank you so much. First of all, 
let me just say, I appreciate you having the hearing today.
    The largest source of carbon dioxide emissions, carbon 
emissions, greenhouse gas emissions, come from our mobile 
sources. I think it is about 30 percent, about 25 percent from 
power plants, about 20 percent from manufacturing operations, 
including cement plants, including steel mills, that kind of 
thing. We are trying to make sure we focus especially on those 
three, but including focus on autos.
    I will never forget, I have shared this with some of my 
colleagues before, I used to go to the Detroit Auto Show every 
January, actually. When Delaware had two big auto plants, a big 
Chrysler plant and a big General Motors plant, they employed 
about 3,000 or 4,000 people at each of them. It was a big deal 
for a little State.
    I remember being at the Detroit Auto Show about 10 years 
ago, and I met a young woman named Mary Barra. For a lot of 
people, that is a familiar name now, because she is not just 
the CEO of General Motors, she is the chair of the Business 
Roundtable.
    I met her at a ceremony they had at the Detroit Auto Show 
to announce what car was selected as car of the year, what SUV 
or truck was selected as the truck of the year. The car of the 
year was the Chevrolet Volt, and it was a hybrid. They do not 
make them anymore, but it was a hybrid. I remember talking with 
her, and she told me that it got 38 miles on a charge, and 
after that, the battery was depleted and the car would have to 
operate on gasoline, diesel, whatever.
    Ten years later, she is a big deal. She is the chairman of 
the company and chairman of the Business Roundtable. I was 
trying to get GM, maybe about a year ago, to join Ford and 
Volvo and some other companies in really signing onto fuel 
efficiency standards, or emissions standards.
    I will never forget what she said to me. She said, Senator, 
I am all in on electric. That is where the future is. They are 
cheaper to build, to maintain, and climate change is real. It 
makes sense. She said, three things have to happen before 
people will buy the vehicles that we are prepared to make, the 
electric vehicles we are prepared to make in the future.
    No. 1, 300 miles range. She said, that is on the industry, 
not on the government. She said, the second thing we need is 
the ability to charge batteries in minutes, not hours. That is 
on the industry; that is not on the government. She said the 
third thing is on the government, and that is to make sure that 
we have throughout not just Delaware and places on the East 
Coast, but all over the Country, charging stations and fueling 
stations for vehicles that we are prepared to build. She said, 
if we do not do that, we will never be as successful here as we 
would like to.
    Another conversation that I remember was with a person, I 
remember a conversation with, I think it was Amazon and FedEx. 
They were talking about their delivery vehicles and whether or 
not they use electric vehicles, do they use diesel vehicles, 
some combination thereof.
    I am not sure if it was Amazon or FedEx, but over a 
relatively short period of time, they migrated almost entirely 
to electric. They did it, and I will never forget them 
explaining to me. The fellow we talked to from whichever 
company it was said that, the right business decision for us, 
set aside concerns about climate change or global warming or 
sea level rise, for us, the right business decision was 
electric vehicles.
    Same reasons that Mary Barra had given me. It is not just 
low emissions; it is low maintenance. They are easy to build, 
easier to maintain. She did not say this, but as the owner of 
an electric vehicle that I have had now for about two years, 
they are fun to drive. That is kind of hard to put a price tag 
on, but they are just a hell of a lot of fun. For people who, I 
can see some heads in the audience here nodding, yes, they 
really are.
    For those reasons, I think that is where we need to go, 
ought to go. Having said that, 10, 15, 20, my last vehicle was 
a 2001 Chrysler Town and Country Minivan with 600,000 miles on 
it. Some people just love their vehicles. Maybe some people in 
the audience love their vehicles and never want to change, and 
they are going to keep their vehicles for 100,000, 200,000 
miles, maybe more. We are not going to hit a switch and just 
move over and take EVs, or hydrogen-powered vehicles, but we 
will eventually migrate away.
    The other thing I would just say, I mentioned in another 
hearing today what we are facing in terms of climate change, 
sea level rise, and that sort of thing. We have to be smart 
enough to not let this happen. The question is, are we smart 
enough to avoid the dire consequences that we hear about all 
the time, are we smart enough to do that, and at the same time, 
create jobs and economic opportunity?
    I would take away from my conversations with Mary Barra and 
the folks at General Motors, and frankly, Bill Ford at Ford 
Motors and the folks at Amazon, the delivery company or FedEx 
that offered the very smart, I thought, coaching arguments for 
supporting EVs. There we go. We do not have to do it just 
because it feels good, but it is actually good business sense.
    My wife and I have some four step-grandchildren. I want to 
make sure that they grow up and have a planet to grow up on and 
grow old on and have good jobs. It comes to that.
    Mr. Chair, I want to ask unanimous consent a study by the 
International Energy Agency that compares the greenhouse gas 
life cycle analysis between an internal combustion vehicle and 
battery electric vehicles. It is hard to read my staff's 
writing, but then considering the mining of critical minerals 
electric vehicles are substantially less in emissions compared 
to internal combustion vehicles. We will change this for the 
record, but I think I am asking unanimous consent for a study 
by the International Energy Agency, here.
    Senator Markey. Without objection, so ordered.
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    Senator Carper. I have a question for Mr. Harto, and then I 
will be out of your hair.
    I want to thank the Chair for holding a hearing on a 
transportation sector that I have suggested as a major source 
of carbon emissions, and we have to do something about it. We 
are doing something about it. EPA's newly proposed light duty 
vehicle and heavy-duty vehicles greenhouse gas emissions 
standards will reduce emissions of criteria pollutants, 
greenhouse gases, and air toxics, creating significant benefits 
for public health and our climate.
    This issue is especially personal for us in Delaware. I 
think I have mentioned a million times, my committee members 
can tell you, a million times how Delaware is the lowest-lying 
State in the Country. Our State is sinking. The seas around us 
are rising. It is not a good combination.
    Here is my question for you, Mr. Harto. We always talk 
about the tremendous clean air and climate benefits of EPA's 
Clean Car Rule, but as a car enthusiast with, as I said 
earlier, my own electric vehicle, I also want to hear about 
what these rules will mean for American drivers.
    Does your research show that many drivers want to buy 
electric vehicles, and if so, why? How will these clean car 
rules help protect drivers from volatile global oil prices, 
which are often influenced by the whims of dictators?
    Mr. Harto. Great. Yes, thank you for your question.
    Yes. These rules will deliver consumer savings to 
Americans. EVs on the road today, despite their higher prices, 
already deliver lifetime cost savings to consumers while 
reducing the volatility of their monthly fuel budget. 
Electricity prices change over time, but they change very 
slowly, in fairly predictable ways, whereas oil prices 
fluctuate wildly, which can, even if you thought you could 
afford the vehicle when you first bought it, if oil prices rise 
$1, $2, you might have to choose between feeding your family 
and fueling your vehicle to get to work every day.
    Senator Carper. Anybody else want to comment on that? Ms. 
Harris?
    Ms. Harris. Thank you so much, Senator.
    Just uplifting what Mr. Harto said, we are already today 
seeing significant cost savings for an electric vehicle 
compared to a gasoline-powered car. Since the transportation 
costs tend to be a large energy burden for drivers and 
consumers, transitioning to zero emission vehicles is a win for 
consumers' pocketbooks as well, in addition to a lot of the 
points that you uplifted for improving air quality and health 
of Americans and also making us more globally competitive, too. 
There are many, many benefits, and there is an increased 
interest from drivers to purchase these vehicles.
    Mr. Boyle. Senator Carper, if I may?
    Senator Carper. I was just handed notice that I need to go 
give a speech on the floor right now. If I could be, I should 
be two people right now, but I apologize, I need to run. I 
welcome anything you want to give us for the record, please and 
thank you.
    Mr. Boyle. Thank you.
    Senator Carper. Thanks so much.
    Senator Markey. The Senator's time has expired, and his 
request for inclusion in the record of the document that he 
referred to, without objection, they would be so ordered.
    The Senator from Oregon?
    Senator Merkley. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman, and 
greetings to all. Thank you for your testimony. I just want to 
repeat what I heard you all saying, Mr. Harto, that life cycle 
costs for a consumer, they are better off buying an electric 
vehicle?
    Mr. Boyle. That is correct.
    Senator Merkley. Do you agree with that, Ms. Harris?
    Ms. Harris. Yes.
    Senator Merkley. If I am buying an electric vehicle, and I 
am wondering, well, how many miles am I going to get on a 
kilowatt hour, what is the answer?
    Ms. Harris. A recent study that I saw said that the average 
range of an electric vehicle today is about 290 miles.
    Senator Merkley. That is not the range. How far am I going 
to go on a kilowatt hour?
    Mr. Harto. Somewhere between three and four miles per 
kilowatt hour.
    Senator Merkley. Four miles on most of the Bolt, for 
example. I pay 12 cents for each kilowatt hour that comes to my 
house. Therefore, it costs me how much to go one mile?
    Mr. Harto. About three or four cents.
    Senator Merkley. Three cents. Brilliant. That is 
incredible. I think that is why the life cycle savings are 
significant, not to mention the savings when you have an 
internal combustion vehicle doing tens of thousands of little 
explosions that have to be managed, they have all kinds of 
parts to repair that you do not have on an electric vehicle.
    I did, however, have a problem in that a mouse got under 
the hood of my Bolt and ate a bunch of key wires out of reach. 
I did have to have one repair, unfortunately.
    Well, I have a 360 square foot, 20-panel solar panels on my 
roof. Well, this month, they produce about 30 kilowatt hours a 
day, just 360 square feet, which means that the average mileage 
that I get from my car out of this little, tiny solar array on 
my roof is about 120 miles. I can drive my car 120 miles a day 
on the electricity coming in on that little tiny array on my 
roof. To me, that is incredible.
    I think it is helpful for people to hear those basic 
numbers, because it does not translate initially that just a 
little bit of panels on your roof, and you can drive. Well, 
think about that. If you are doing a hundred miles a day, for a 
year, that is 36,000 miles on just that little sunlight coming 
in on your roof.
    Anyway, it has to be, however, when you are on the road, 
outside of the range of your fueling up at home, charging up at 
home, it has to be as easy to charge up as it is to fill up. 
Have we reached that point yet, either one of you?
    Mr. Harto. No, we have not, but these EPA standards really 
help solve the chicken and egg problem with charging 
infrastructure. Private industry is not going to invest 
billions of dollars in putting in chargers if they are not sure 
that the vehicles that need them are going to be there. 
Industry promises only go so far. Having set rules really sets 
a direction for the industry and allows them to invest with 
confidence.
    Senator Merkley. Well, we do have to grow the charging 
stations and grow the number of vehicles, but something else 
that would be helpful, and I have sent a number of letters to 
our Transportation Secretary, I have had many conversations 
with him about this, is the complexity of charging when you 
find that station that is open. Some of them charge monthly 
fees. Some of them charge by how much time you are hooked up. 
Some of the charge by kilowatt hour, but do not tell you what 
the charge is, and so forth.
    My advocacy to the Transportation Secretary is making it as 
transparent as gas stations are. Every single one of them, you 
know what you pay per gallon before you drive in. Can we do the 
same and have people know how much they are going to pay per 
kilowatt hour when you bring it up to the charging station? 
Would that be a good idea?
    Mr. Harto. Sure, yes. Sounds great.
    Senator Merkley. Those are softball questions, maybe 
leading questions. Some stations charge 15 cents in Oregon. 
Some charge 45 cents, and you do not really know until you get 
there. That will really help, because there is a certain 
anxiety about the complexity of charging stations that is 
totally unnecessary.
    So, with the grants that we have in the legislation we 
passed last year, my argument was, require people to 
standardize in a way to get rid of that anxiety about the 
complexity of a charging station. For folks who travel a lot, 
you eventually figure out the system. You figure out how to 
check the apps, but it does not need to be that hard.
    I read, Mr. Harto, that 36 percent of Americans were 
definitely or seriously considering an electric vehicle. I 
certainly, after having one, understand that there is a lot to 
love. What is the main reason Americans are considering an 
electric vehicle? Is it the cost savings that you referred to? 
Because I think most Americans do not really know that yet. Is 
it how quiet they are, is it the lack of repairs, is it the 
environmental sensitivity? What is driving their interest?
    Mr. Harto. Every American has their own reasons for 
choosing an electric vehicle. Some of them choose them for 
climate reasons; some of them choose them for cost reasons. 
Others just like that they are faster and perform better, and 
they enjoy driving them. There are a lot of different entry 
points for Americans into electric vehicles.
    Senator Merkley. Any insights, Ms. Harris, on what are 
considered the top two drivers for people's interest in 
electric vehicles?
    Ms. Harris. Nothing more to add than what Mr. Harto said. I 
think there are a variety of reasons, but I do think that the 
cost savings for drivers is definitely one of the reasons why 
they continue to purchase electric vehicles.
    Senator Merkley. I must say, early on in the electric 
vehicle world, it was the glue yourself to the back of your 
seat acceleration that put a big smile on a lot of people's 
faces. I must say, I nearly wrecked an electric vehicle the 
first time I drove one, because it was like--I was on the 
freeway before I knew what had happened. I am glad I made it 
through that, otherwise I would not be here today.
    My time has expired, so I am going to turn it back over to 
the Chairman. Thanks.
    Senator Markey. Thank you. Now, we will turn and recognize 
the Senator from Alaska. Mr. Sullivan?
    Senator Sullivan. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you to our 
witnesses.
    Mr. Boyle, I would like to focus on some of the issues 
relating to the trucking industry. There has been a really good 
story on the fact that 70 percent of our economy's total 
tonnage has been coming from you and your industry, and there 
has been very significant greenhouse gas emission reductions, 
primarily through your own work. Isn't that true?
    Mr. Boyle. Yes, sir.
    Senator Sullivan. Do you think that has been highlighted 
much?
    Mr. Boyle. You know, the line of demarcation that most 
people refer to with diesel technology emissions was 2010. 
Right now, if we look at the national fleet of Class A trucks, 
47 percent of them are still pre-2010. There is an 83 percent 
reduction going from 2010 to today. Senator Carper and others 
have actually facilitated legislation grants to help refresh 
this fleet. We want to remove impediments for people to buy 
today's trucks.
    Senator Sullivan. That is going to help make the 
environment cleaner, correct?
    Mr. Boyle. With the existing infrastructure, without the 
trillion-dollar investment, yes.
    Senator Sullivan. Well, listen, I think that is a story 
that we need to hear more about. I am very concerned, like 
many, bipartisan concern, by the way, of the EPA's using its 
regulatory power to the transition vehicle fleet in a way which 
I think is not an achievable pace. These rules are de facto 
bans on internal combustion engines, and that is why Senator 
Ricketts and I intend to introduce resolutions of disapproval 
under the congressional Review Act both for heavy duty truck 
proposals and EPA light and medium vehicle proposals. I ask, 
Mr. Chairman, unanimous consent to enter into the record a 
recent op ed from the Wall Street Journal, saying Biden's EPA 
rules remake the auto industry.
    Senator Markey. Without objection.
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    Senator Sullivan. Thank you. Mr. Boyle, do you agree that 
the regulations are an unprecedented move by the EPA to 
dramatically move forward something that we think probably 
violates the recent Supreme Court decision in EPA versus West 
Virginia in terms of, if you are going to regulatory authority 
to remake the whole economy, you need to get that authority 
from the Congress. What is your view on that?
    Mr. Boyle. We work in interState commerce. My trucks 
transport cancer drugs. When we impede interState commerce, the 
products that are essential to daily life do not get delivered. 
Yes, by passing the buck and allowing States to enact their own 
regulations on emissions, the market is not large enough for 
innovators to address individual States.
    Furthermore, yes, historically, we have had great, our OEMs 
and other stakeholders in industry have great cooperation and 
collaboration with EPA on technical standards and on timelines 
that were achievable. If we do not do that, and we cede to the 
States, we end up with this patchwork.
    Then, furthermore, as we discussed earlier, as of January 
of this coming year, there will be no internal combustion truck 
that is compliant with California Carb Standards. Battery 
electric trucks, if everybody in this room took off their socks 
and shoes and we counted fingers and toes, we would have more 
of them than there are chargers for heavy duty trucks.
    We have to play a little bit more chess, not checkers, get 
the power generation, establish the infrastructure for chargers 
and then, by all means, we would embrace this notion. To do so 
without that in place sets trucking up for failure which in 
turn, sets up consumers for failure and higher costs.
    Senator Sullivan. Thank you.
    Let me ask one final question for all the panelists. The 
Administration, and I think this is a bipartisan issue, says 
that they want America, not China in particular, to source the 
critical minerals that we will need for electric vehicles and 
so many other clean energy technologies. Yet, this kind of 
timeline does not give our Country the ability to mine critical 
minerals that we have.
    By the way, in Alaska, we have the highest environmental 
standards in the world on mining critical minerals. If we need 
critical minerals, and we want to get away from China, the 
reliance on China, and we have the highest standards in the 
world and we can employ our own people, why wouldn't we do 
that?
    You may have seen Senator Manchin's statement on what he 
called the EPA's radical vehicle emissions standards, and he 
said that the one thing that is going to happen here is that it 
is going to only result in more energy secure and powerful 
China and strengthening our reliance on minerals and 
technologies from China. This is a Democrat saying this.
    I am meeting with, in the next couple minutes, a group from 
the Ambler Mining District in Alaska. Huge critical minerals 
supply for our great State. Highest environmental standards, 
labor, Tribal, individuals I am going to be meeting with on 
this Ambler project. The Biden Administration, on the day the 
President held a critical minerals summit, reversed the 7-year 
environmental impact statement on the Ambler mining road.
    It is crazy. If we need green technologies and we need the 
critical minerals for it, why wouldn't we do it from here? Why 
would we keep relying on China? The Administration recently 
took a very large critical mineral deposit in Minnesota offline 
for 20 years. All this does is make us more reliant on China, 
and they have the worst environmental standards in the world.
    Would anyone like to comment on this? If we need these 
technologies and minerals, why wouldn't we get it in the place 
with the highest standards on the planet? That is America. That 
is Alaska. Yet, this Administration talks a big game, and all 
they do is undertake policies that make us more reliant on the 
Chinese Communist Party and its economy.
    Any views on that? I will throw it open to anybody. Mr. 
Boyle, we will start with you.
    Mr. Boyle. Certainly, national security needs to be taken 
into consideration. If we expose ourselves, we are just moving 
from one commodity to another.
    Senator Sullivan. Ms. Harris, any views on that, just 
wanting to source critical minerals in the place that has the 
highest standards in the world, which is us?
    Ms. Harris. Yes, of course, thanks for the question, 
Senator. Thanks to Congress passing the Inflation Reduction 
Act, the U.S. is now on course to insource much of the battery 
production while also having minerals sourced from countries 
that we have trade agreements with;
    Senator Sullivan. And our allies, right?
    Ms. Harris. Yes. I will highlight, too, that these rules 
are being complemented by U.S. programs to reduce, reuse, and 
recycle the minerals from batteries so that we can reduce the 
need for additional extraction.
    Senator Sullivan. Good. You agree with focusing on American 
production, mineral production, or our allies, who have much 
higher standards than the Democratic Republic of the Congo and 
China, correct?
    Ms. Harris. Yes, and we are seeing automakers also bring 
this industry onshore already, with over $210 billion of 
investments just here in the United States to help with that 
process.
    Senator Sullivan. Good, excellent.
    Mr. Harto, do you have a view on that, as well?
    Mr. Harto. I have nothing more to add from what has already 
been said.
    Senator Sullivan. OK, thank you. One point five partisan 
agreement. I think everybody here agrees with this.
    Mr. Boyle. It is worth noting, to your point, if we were to 
convert the entire U.S. trucking fleet to battery electric, we 
would need to commandeer global production of lithium for more 
than seven years.
    Senator Sullivan. Yes.
    Mr. Boyle. That is the scale of the problem we are talking 
about. It is not that we can not overcome challenges, but we do 
not overcome them by pretending they do not exist. We just 
manifest our own destiny that way.
    Senator Sullivan. A lot of the challenges we have, Mr. 
Chairman, as you know, we can solve here, in America, with our 
own high standards on the environment and production. I think 
it is a good area of bipartisan cooperation. I am glad all the 
witnesses are in agreement. Thank you very much.
    Senator Markey. I thank the gentleman.
    After the Waxman-Markey bill passed, I traveled immediately 
to China, waiting for it to pass the Senate. We actually went 
to a wind turbine manufacturing facility. It was massive. We 
did not have an equivalent in the United States. I said, those 
wind turbines are pointing at the American economy in the same 
way that the Russian missiles were pointing at the United 
States during the Cuban Missile Crisis.
    We need a response, and that is what the IRA is. It is 
saying, domestic manufacture, domestic sourcing, only with our 
allies, and let us just put this thing together, because we 
have been asleep, allowing for this erosion of our own domestic 
capacity. I think it is an area where we can partner.
    Let me turn to the Senator from California.
    Senator Padilla. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I appreciate your 
holding this important and timely hearing today.
    I just want to start by saying I am so proud of the efforts 
that you have led, that I have tried to lead, along with 
Chairman Carper pushing the EPA to finalize the strongest 
possible vehicle emissions rules.
    I am starting to like this subcommittee and this committee 
as a whole, because it seems like every time I walk in from 
another committee, I am told that they were bashing California 
again for the audacity to exercise some policy leadership. Let 
me just say that you are absolutely right. We are setting the 
bar high, but we are also thoughtful enough, from the Governor, 
the legislature, the congressional delegation, on down to be 
thoughtful about a transition from fossil fuel vehicles to 
electric.
    The deadlines that have been set are not tomorrow or next 
week or next month. We know that there is a transition that 
needs to take place. By setting out a marker several years, we 
know that technology will continue to improve, performance of 
those technologies will continue to improve in that timeframe, 
not just batteries, but all aspects of electric vehicles, for 
example, passenger vehicles, to heavy duty trucks, even 
locomotives eventually, but also modernizing the electrical 
grid to handle the transition to the transportation sector that 
we are mindful of.
    So, give us some credit, that we were thoughtful about 
this, and already showing some significant progress.
    Focusing on today's hearing though, EPA's latest rules are 
important for so many reasons. They are going to save drivers 
money on gas. They are going to create high quality jobs in the 
process and continue to position the United States as a leader 
in zero emission vehicle technology.
    Equally important, and I want to make sure this is not lost 
on anybody, equally important to my constituents are the public 
health protections that come from cleaning up vehicles, 
particularly in the heavy-duty sector. I can not tell you how 
often I hear from constituents who just want to be able to 
breathe clean air outside, go outside and play with their kids, 
and live healthy lives.
    I hear frequently from constituents all over California, 
but particularly in the Inland Empire that is the Nation's 
capital when it comes to logistics, we all know people love, in 
this day and age, getting products, whatever they buy online, 
literally delivered to your doorstep. We have to understand 
that convenience comes with a significant cost to the public 
health of Californians, not just, but especially in the Inland 
Empire.
    Mr. Harto, I appreciate your testimony and your 
organization's reports that shine a light on the environmental 
injustices happening in the Inland Empire in California, often 
referred to, as I said, America's logistics capital. The 
reports show that the impacts of the rapid expansion of 
warehouses in the area disproportionately fall on low-income 
communities and communities of color, which increases air 
pollution in the area due to trucks that burn fuel and 
transport goods to and from warehouses, to and from ports, and 
to and from homes.
    Can you speak for a minute on how EPA's proposed Heavy Duty 
Rule will mitigate air pollution in these communities?
    Mr. Harto. Yes, thank you for your questions. I will admit, 
I have not had a chance to dig too deeply into the EPA's 
proposal on the Heavy Duty Rule, but we know that decarbonizing 
and removing emissions from these vehicles that are driving 
around communities in people's front yards, where children are 
playing in communities, is extremely important to improving the 
health of all Americans, especially Americans who live in 
disadvantaged communities.
    Senator Padilla. Suffice it to say, we have made and can 
appreciate the significant progress in cleaning up the 
passenger vehicle sector. We can only imagine the positive 
benefit that will come with cleaning up the heavy-duty vehicle 
sector, as well.
    One followup question in my time remaining. I have been 
fighting for the cleaner trucks since I first came to the 
Senate from pushing EPA to originally revise the standards back 
in 2021 to moving the Clean Trucks Plan to the proposed phase 
three standards that we are discussing today.
    Question for Ms. Harris. The NRDC has written about how the 
final phase three standards need to aim higher in order to 
reduce trucking pollution and put the trucking industry on a 
path to zero emissions. What do they mean by aiming higher? Can 
you describe what being more ambitious means to you?
    Ms. Harris. Sure. EPA's truck standards are an important 
step forward, but the main proposal is much too weak. Truck 
makers have shown that they can deliver less polluting and zero 
polluting vehicles, and EPA needs standards that will get them, 
to get them on the road. This is especially true given the 
historic incentives for electric heavy-duty vehicles that were 
included in last year' Inflation Reduction Act.
    To your point, we are going to be working with our partners 
in communities near highways and ports and freight hubs 
nationwide to deliver data to the Environmental Protection 
Agency showing how and why this pollution can be cleaned up, 
and why it must be cleaned up now.
    Senator Padilla. Thank you.
    In closing, Mr. Chair, I will just reiterate my invitation 
to any of our colleagues who want to see the future of a 
cleaner transportation sector in progress, I am happy to 
welcome you to California. Thank you very much.
    Senator Markey. Of course, we always take that as a 
challenge, especially since what they do in California is that 
they take people who are educated at the Massachusetts 
Institute of Technology (MIT), elect them to the U.S. Senate, 
then challenge Massachusetts to develop better, more innovative 
people. We accept the challenge, as we have in the past.
    [Laughter.]
    Senator Markey. We do not have a choice here. We really do 
not. I have the great honor, as a Member of Congress, this is 
how long I have been around, I voted to bail out Chrysler in 
1979. They were going bankrupt because they had fallen so far 
behind technologically. Then, I had the honor in 2009 of voting 
to bail out Chrysler, because they had fallen behind 
technologically.
    We can keep waiting for them to get it, and they would keep 
saying, oh, Tesla, that is not the future. Do you know how hard 
it is? People do not want to drive around in an electric 
vehicle, like a golf cart. They did not have the vision to see 
what an electric vehicle could be, more powerful than an 
internal combustion engine vehicle.
    So, now they are hustling to catch up, finally, thank God 
they are, and it is about time. In Europe, for example, the 
European parliament has committed to making all new cars and 
vans in Europe to be zero emission by 2035. If we want to be 
selling vehicles in Europe, we better get moving, here. That is 
the market.
    If we do not want to be in the market, of course we can go 
slow. We could have a bill to bail out auto companies in 2031 
because they are going too slow, and people are not buying 
them, or in China, if we want to look at Asian markets, we 
better be making vehicles that they want to purchase.
    That just comes down to what Senator Padilla is talking 
about, that we need to have a way to continue to innovate and 
get out there. Take them on. We do not want to keep them out. 
We want to ultimately take them on. Let's have this battle. We 
have to have the battle on our terms, so that we are not Uncle 
Sucker here, just importing all of their raw materials.
    There are different levels of heavy-duty vehicles. Some are 
easier to electrify, no question about it. A school bus is 
easier to electrify than a long-haul truck.
    That is why EPA rules to regulate different classes of 
heavy-duty vehicles are different, giving more leeway and a 
longer ramp to the vehicles that are hardest to electrify. We 
can work with the industry on this subject.
    But I will just say this, and I hate to do this before the 
Senator from California leaves, because I am going to cite the 
Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory in California for a study 
which they have completed that finds that zero emission freight 
trucks are primed for success, because in their assessment, an 
average long-haul trucker goes 150 miles between 30-minute 
driver breaks.
    So if we deploy fast chargers across this Country, we can 
electrify those truck routes and save 13 percent for the owners 
of those trucks per mile, if we do it right. We are going to 
have to do it right, there is no question. We are going to have 
to do it in the correct sequence.
    Of course, buses and other vehicles of that nature are 
going to be easier than the kind of vehicles that Mr. Boyle is 
talking about.
    But we can do this, reflecting the truck stops that, for 
safety purposes, truck drivers have to accommodate anyway. It 
will have to be done in a massive enough future.
    Again, from Massachusetts, I thank the Senator for all of 
the great work from the State of California as well. Thank you.
    Let me just ask, if I may, one final question before I turn 
it over to Senator Ricketts. That would be, battery efficiency 
and the efficiency benefits that we get if this EPA supported 
battery efficiency standards for vehicles as part of the 
rulemaking process. Could you speak to that?
    Mr. Harto. Yes, I can take that question. Thank you.
    Not enough is talked about on efficiency of electric 
vehicles. Increasing the efficiency of EVs reduces the cost, 
reduces the amount of batteries, and allows the vehicles to 
travel greater distance on the same amount of electricity. 
Ensuring that the EVs that are built are as efficient as 
possible is great for everybody.
    Senator Markey. The EPA is considering the treatment of 
upstream emissions from plug-in hybrid electric vehicles and 
battery electric vehicles. I really do believe it is an area 
where we can put the strongest possible standards in place, and 
the whole system would benefit greatly.
    Let me turn and recognize Senator Ricketts one more time.
    Senator Rickets. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    Ms. Harris, Mr. Harto, both of you mentioned that when it 
comes to securing these critical minerals, that we can work 
with our allies, and certainly, Canada is obviously a very 
close ally. I think you mentioned Chile, too. Was Argentina the 
third one that you mentioned?
    Mr. Harto. Australia.
    Senator Ricketts. Australia, OK. Very good.
    When it comes to specific items, right, when you have to 
make a battery, you can not miss anything, or else the battery 
is not going to work. Is that a fair statement? Like, if you do 
not have graphite, you can not make the battery work, is that 
fair?
    Mr. Harto. Sure.
    Senator Ricketts. I think 80 percent of the graphite comes 
from China. Can these other countries make up the difference of 
that? Has somebody done, again, for all the critical minerals 
that are needed for these batteries, has somebody looked at the 
reserves for these countries and done the math to see that they 
can actually meet that need? We have heard that you are going 
to have to, Mr. Boyle, you said 35 percent of the world's 
minerals we are going to need to do all the heavy trucks, 
right?
    Mr. Boyle. We would need to commandeer seven years' worth 
of global production.
    Senator Ricketts. Seven years' worth. Has anybody done that 
math, looked at the allies and what they can actually provide?
    Ms. Harris. I believe that there are some studies on that, 
but I have not. I do not have that in front of me.
    Senator Ricketts. You do not have any personal knowledge of 
it. Mr. Harto, do you?
    Mr. Harto. Yes, again, we have not dug deep into it, but I 
will say that, you mentioned graphite. There are methods to 
make synthetic graphite from coal. We have a lot of coal that 
is not going to be used here in the United States.
    Senator Ricketts. Do you know how much more expensive that 
would be to make it?
    Mr. Harto. I do not know offhand.
    Senator Ricketts. OK.
    Ms. Harris, I think in your testimony, you said, in your 
written testimony, rather, you said rural drivers who, on 
average, tend to drive further and have larger vehicles, stand 
to benefit the most from identifying their electric vehicles. 
Is that accurate?
    Ms. Harris. Yes.
    Senator Ricketts. I believe that the study you were looking 
at analyzes impacts in Maine, Vermont, Virginia, and Maryland. 
Is that accurate?
    Ms. Harris. I believe so, yes.
    Senator Ricketts. Just out of curiosity, do you know how 
long it take to drive north to south in Maryland?
    Ms. Harris. I do not have that estimate in front of me.
    Senator Ricketts. About four hours.
    Ms. Harris. Yes.
    Senator Ricketts. What about Vermont? Have you any idea?
    Ms. Harris. I would estimate two to three hours.
    Senator Ricketts. Actually, it is about four hours and 40 
minutes, so it is a little bit longer in Vermont.
    Nebraska is about seven hours. If you look at not just how 
long it takes to drive back and forth, but also the square 
mileage, if you look at the States that you cited in your 
study, Maryland is about a sixth the size of Nebraska; Vermont 
is an eighth the size. Maine is about half the size, a little 
bit less, and Virginia is a little more than a half of it.
    My point being that these States are not typical for what 
you would find in the Western United States as far as rural 
States. Trying to get at how it is going to impact people in 
those States is one of the challenges. In fact, that is one of 
the things that I have noticed since I have come here to 
Washington, DC.
    Again, to Senator Carper's point, driving electric 
vehicles, they are fun. They have great acceleration. It is 
great that we can have fun with them like that. I think one of 
the things that I have seen here in Washington, DC. in my short 
time is that when you are around big urban areas, you have a 
different perspective on how you can use electric vehicles and 
the access to charging stations and so forth versus a rural 
State like Nebraska, where you have two metropolitan areas that 
would not even be considered big on the East Coast and a lot of 
open space in between where you do not have a lot of people. We 
have, for example, three times as many cows as we have people.
    You have to drive long distances to be able to get 
anywhere, and I mentioned the stretch between Allen and Hay 
Springs, 340 miles, there are no charging stations. Even with 
the $6 million a year I think Nebraska is going to be getting 
from the stimulus package that got passed, you are not going to 
be able build that out in time to be able to have two-thirds in 
effect, in my humble opinion, by 2032. That is a lot of 
infrastructure.
    We are challenged with that right now when it comes to just 
getting broadband out to our Nebraska households. That is a 
billion-dollar investment there, to be able to get just 
broadband to every household in Nebraska. Trying to do charging 
stations is going to be another drop, and then again.
    Just in my experience as Governor, working with our public 
power districts, we are the only public power State in the 
Country, just providing, for example, Google and Facebook, 
which use a lot of electricity, have come to our State, and 
economic development, creating jobs, they use a lot of 
electricity. You just do not pop up the kind of electricity it 
takes to handle those types of facilities.
    In fact, in my conversations with Omaha Public Power 
District (OPPD), Javier Fernandez is their president, it is a 
challenge to be able to make sure you can keep up with just the 
growing needs that we have today, none of this is factored into 
that. None of this is factored into having two-thirds of cars 
being electric vehicles in less than 10 years. It is not in 
their plans right now to be able to accommodate that sort of 
growth in the utility field.
    My time has expired, so I yield back. Thank you, Mr. 
Chairman.
    Senator Markey. Thank you, Senator.
    The Senator from West Virginia is recognized.
    Senator Capito. Thank you.
    Sorry this is a quick in and out, but this is a very 
topical topic, and I appreciate the three of you and the panel 
being here today. I am going to jump right in with Mr. Boyle. I 
understand that your fleet transports sensitive materials that 
can have strict temperature range requirements. You did a lot 
of transporting, I believe, of the vaccine?
    Mr. Boyle. Yes, ma'am.
    Senator Capito. Yes. If you are required to purchase an 
electric heavy-duty truck, do you have any concerns about the 
ability to deliver shipments with these kinds of specific 
temperatures, and are those even available with that kind of 
technology for an electric heavy-duty truck?
    Mr. Boyle. That is a great point. The draw and the demand 
is very intense. It is a completely different dynamic than the 
auto sector.
    I would like to address Chairman Markey and Senator Padilla 
explicitly. We share your concern and your drive toward zero 
emissions. The trucking industry starts at yes. We are on that 
path, and we share the concerns about all different 
communities, rural and urban.
    But the path to get there has to be logical. We can not be 
set up for failure, and in many respects, some of the 
regulations have caused negative consequences. California 
actually has among the oldest truck fleets in the Country, so 
52 percent of California trucks are pre-2010 diesel emissions. 
If we got them current to today, that would be an 83 percent 
reduction with the existing infrastructure.
    It is not that we do not want to reduce emissions. We are 
fully on board with that. It is just that not all solutions, we 
can not spread the peanut butter from cars onto all vehicles.
    Senator Capito. Let me ask you this, and it has probably 
been asked, the cost issue, a new diesel truck in your 
business, how does that cost? What is the equivalence there for 
that and an electric truck?
    Mr. Boyle. The upcharge is roughly $300,000.
    Senator Capito. That is on top of what the vehicle costs?
    Mr. Boyle. Yes, ma'am, the upcharge, the delta.
    Now, as my friends to the right of me here have pointed 
out, over the cost of ownership, a portion of that may be 
realized, but not nearly the $300,000. At some point, yes, it 
might be somewhat more viable. It is just that we are years 
away from it. It is simply not an option, because there isn't 
the infrastructure or power to get to them.
    Senator Capito. In terms of, let's say, if we are looking 
10 years down the road, or if we look 10 years back, would that 
$300,000, we expect, I think, and you probably, I do not want 
to put words in your mouth. Do you expect, I expect, that delta 
does down over time as there is more, or not?
    Mr. Boyle. The economies of scale that have been discussed 
previously are in the auto sector where the addressable market 
is exponentially larger, in the millions of vehicles per year. 
In trucks, it is a couple hundred thousand, so the market 
opportunity isn't such that you would have a Moore's law for 
heavy trucks, for example.
    I can tell you, over the course of my career, I have not 
seen truck prices go down much over time, but yes, could it be 
compelling and a total cost of ownership at some point? 
Perhaps, and we are not averse to that. We are certainly not in 
position to even phase that in at a one percent level at 
current.
    Senator Capito. The weight is an issue as well, both for 
cars and for, I am concerned about, I will go to cars. Cars are 
going to be heavier. EV cars are going to be heavier because of 
the weight of the battery and other things.
    What kind of safety issues and what kind of State DOTs, 
what kind of reinforcements along the highways, is that all 
going to change, accidents, impacts? All of these things I know 
are critical when you are looking at transforming an entire 
fleet. I do not know if the trucking industry, by the time you 
add the weight to the truck, what does that do to the cargo, 
because there are weight limits, obviously?
    Mr. Boyle. Yes, sure. Each heavy-duty truck electric 
vehicle battery would be about 8,000 pounds. They are typically 
in sets of two or three or four. As you add weight in that 
respect, you reduce the payload capacity. I think another lever 
for improving congestion and emissions that you have 
championed, with direct targeted infrastructure investment, and 
particularly in chokepoints around the Country in a smart 
fashion, then reducing traffic reduces emissions. That is 
another lever that the government has at its disposal.
    Senator Capito. Ms. Harris, I wanted to ask you a question 
on, in your testimony, you highlight the NRDC support for EVs 
and the incentives in the Inflation Reduction Act. The 
investments that have to be made in battery manufacturing, we 
know we are beholden to China right now, so we are trying to 
draw that back into our own Country and have domestically 
produced critical minerals and chips and everything.
    Does the NRDC, are you supporting any domestic mining 
projects right now that would provide that? Can you name any 
that your organization does support in terms of creating a mine 
for critical minerals?
    Ms. Harris. That is not my area of expertise, but I will 
say that the auto industry has already committed over $210 
billion to bringing this battery supply chain here to the 
United States. Many of the incentives that are coming from 
Congress, including in the Inflation Reduction Act, are not 
only helping to on-shore some of these supply chains, but are 
also incentivizing reducing, reusing, and recycling the 
batteries so that we need to extract less minerals moving 
forward.
    Senator Capito. We still have to extract in order to get 
the domestic production requirements in the Inflation Reduction 
Act and other things. There are still requirements for, and 
there is a great desire for us to have domestic materials, 
whether they are recycled or not, you have to originate. If you 
are going to have this whole, huge glut of new vehicles or 
trucks or whatever, or both, you have to have the critical 
mineral, and you have to have the mine to do it.
    We have to have support for permitting reform and for 
permitting these mines. I question whether your organization 
would be in favor, and I understand it is not your expertise of 
domestic mining of some of these critical minerals, which can 
be very difficult. Thank you.
    Ms. Harris. Thank you for your question.
    Senator Markey. Great, thank you. Just a tip of the cap to 
West Virginia because school buses are considered to be heavy 
duty;
    Senator Capito. And they are making them;
    Senator Markey. And they are making them in West Virginia, 
so the innovation State of West Virginia has figured out how to 
make heavy duty buses, school buses, that will be purchased in 
States all over the Country. They have already made an 
announcement in West Virginia of 750 jobs in a battery 
manufacturing plant that is going to be opening down in West 
Virginia. Congratulations on that, and the fact that it is a 
company from Somerville, Massachusetts, which is going to use 
West Virginia for the 750 manufacturing jobs down there.
    Senator Capito. What company is that?
    Senator Markey. Form Energy.
    That is going to the grid, but again, it is the larger size 
battery technology that can be developed. For example, I heard 
Mr. Boyle talking about how when the truck fills up, it goes 
1,200 miles, but if you take out that 1,200 mile capacity for 
oil, that leaves a lot of space for a battery and innovation 
that can develop that battery that could fill in, because that 
is a lot of weight that is taken off the truck if you could 
then replace it with a battery that could use it. West Virginia 
is at the cutting edge of those issues.
    Again, I view this, Mr. Boyle, in a way in which we had 
these cell phones that were the size of a brick, and then I 
know because I moved over the 200 megahertz to create the flip-
phone era. If you listened to the incumbents at that time, oh 
my God, you do not know how hard that is, but within three 
years, everyone had a flip phone by 1995.
    And then a very smart kid out in Silicon Valley figured 
out, you know what, with all that spectrum, I could actually 
turn it into an iPhone with the capacity of a computer on the 
Apollo mission in 1969.
    So I am very confident that once we set these high goals, 
with all of the tax incentives that are going to be there, that 
we will make the breakthroughs, but understanding that you are 
in an area which will be more difficult, but there are many 
other heavy duty truck areas that can be solved.
    Do you agree with that, that for school buses, for other 
types of heavy duty but still within a range of technological 
feasibility to solve that problem in a relatively short period 
of time?
    Mr. Boyle. You make a great point, sir. It is a massive, 
diverse industry, and not all operations are the same. However, 
your previous statement where you used a very important term, 
sequence, it has to be at the right sequence.
    Currently, .001 percent of operations could be supported. 
That is part of the problem, is that the Clean Trucks Rule, all 
these things, are way too aggressive based on the current 
infrastructure. Many carriers are actually making inquiries. 
When the utility tells you, you are three years out from 
converting to ten forklifts in a warehouse, I think that should 
alert us to the fact that we are just not there.
    Once again, we are on board with getting there in a gradual 
fashion, but even come January of this year, we are not quite 
there. We welcome the opportunity to kind of inform the 
rulemaking and legislative process.
    Senator Markey. Thank you for that.
    Again, the sequencing is important, but we should get those 
heavy-duty vehicles that we can, and then continue to work, 
knowing that innovation will help us to accommodate the more 
difficult areas over time, but still to meet the goal.
    One thing, Mr. Harto, that continues to tick me off, is 
that we import oil from Saudi Arabia, that we import oil from 
Iraq to put into gasoline tanks in the United States. We put 70 
percent of all the oil we consume at the gasoline tanks, when, 
with innovation, we can just back out that oil.
    Can you talk about those benefits, Mr. Harto, for our 
society, both from a climate and from a national security 
perspective?
    Mr. Harto. I can talk about it from the perspective of the 
consumer. From the consumer perspective, not having to worry 
about the fluctuations in the price of gas as it goes from $2 a 
gallon to $5 a gallon, back to $3.50 a gallon, and who knows 
where it goes tomorrow or two weeks from now.
    Electrified vehicles, whether they are hybrids, whether 
they are plug-in hybrids, which would work great in Senator 
Rickett's State of Nebraska, where people may have to drive 
long distances without charging infrastructure while still 
significantly reducing emissions, all of those technologies can 
reduce consumers' risk to fluctuating oil prices.
    Senator Markey. Without question. When Saudi Arabia and the 
Organization of the Petroleum Exporting Countries (OPEC) Plus 
two weeks ago decided, well, too much oil on the market, we are 
just going to reduce the amount of oil on the market to drive 
the price back up again. The equivalent to my father, the truck 
driver, he can not do anything about it. He has to buy the oil. 
He does not have a choice. We are just held to whatever the 
price that this cartel, this essential monopoly, a cartel, 
wants to charge us.
    This gives us a chance to kind of break that link. It will 
probably help us make more intelligent foreign policy 
decisions, as well, in terms of this dependence that we have 
had upon oil over all of the years.
    I can not thank all of you enough for your testimony today. 
In conclusion, when I am going to give you each is one minute 
to summarize what you want us to know at the conclusion of this 
hearing. I will go in reverse order of the opening statements 
and give each one of you that one minute. We will begin with 
you, Mr. Boyle.
    Mr. Boyle. The trucking industry is not averse to change. 
We embrace the opportunity to explore alternative fuels and 
alternative technologies to achieve zero emissions over time.
    We are very disappointed with EPA's about-face in terms of 
the existing rulemaking that manufacturers were trending to and 
planning for and investing the capital necessary to achieve 
another significant reduction in emissions.
    Second, this kind of punting to a State patchwork of 
emissions standards is not workable when you are dealing in 
interState commerce. The assumptions and the passion for 
electric vehicles in the car industry and the car segment, I 
totally appreciate. To extrapolate that onto the trucking 
industry and the complexities where you can not leverage any of 
the existing car charging infrastructure is a huge mistake.
    We look forward to working constructively both with 
Congress and the agencies. Thank you.
    Senator Markey. Thank you so much.
    I should have offered Senator Ricketts a final round, as 
well, which I did not do, and I apologize for that. If you 
would like to ask questions, let me just give each one of these 
the 1-minute, and then we will come back to you.
    Ms. Harris?
    Ms. Harris. Thank you so much. One takeaway, three major 
wins that a transition to----
    Senator Markey. One minute.
    Ms. Harris. Oh yes, I will sum it up very quickly. The 
three wins that we can anticipate through a transition to clean 
air cars is a win for pollution reductions and for public 
health. Clean car standards will reduce greenhouse gas 
emissions and also just improve the health of our communities 
and our children.
    It is a win for consumer pocketbooks and for consumer 
choice. We know that transitioning to zero emission vehicles 
can save drivers thousands and thousands of dollars over the 
life cycle of the vehicle.
    And it is a win for the industry and the economy in the 
United States. We have the opportunity to have a renaissance of 
manufacturing here in the U.S. and incorporate and increase our 
competitiveness across the globe.
    For these reasons, we are very excited and appreciate the 
Federal Government's efforts to support this transition. Thank 
you.
    Senator Markey. Thank you, Ms. Harris, very much.
    Mr. Harto?
    Mr. Harto. Yes. I just want to reiterate my three main 
points that these EPA standards are achievable, there is 
consumer demand that is far outpacing supply for electric 
vehicles, and we see that continuing into the future, and third 
that, again, EVs already save consumers money, and they will 
continue to save consumers money far into the future.
    Senator Markey. Thank you, Mr. Harto, very much.
    Again, I apologize to Senator Ricketts. You are recognized 
for another round of questions.
    Senator Ricketts. Not at all. Thank you very much, Mr. 
Chairman.
    Mr. Harto, you mentioned earlier, you talked about hybrids. 
I actually agree with you that a hybrid is a better solution 
with regard to States like Nebraska, where you have longer 
distances that you have to drive. The EPA has said to attain 
their standards by 2032, it would have to be something like 
two-thirds of cars would have to be electric vehicles, if it 
was only an electric vehicle solution. You also mentioned in 
your earlier testimony that car manufacturers can do things 
like hybrids. Correct?
    Mr. Harto. That is correct.
    Senator Ricketts. Do you know, have you done the math, have 
you seen any studies that show that say, you were going to just 
assume electric vehicles were going to grow to the current 
pace, what would hybrid vehicles have to be, what percentage of 
the new car sales would hybrid vehicles have to be to meet the 
same sort of attainment standards if you had two-thirds?
    Mr. Harto. Again, we are going to have a mix of solutions 
in different places. When we did the analysis on a 50 percent 
target, if an automaker built mostly hybrids, that 50 percent 
drops down to about 35 percent electric vehicles. Again, an 
automaker could build 50 percent. I do not know the exact 
numbers, but they can build a mix. The more hybrids they build, 
the more plug-in hybrids they build, the fewer battery electric 
vehicles they have to build.
    Senator Ricketts. Consumer Reports has done that math on 
that to say how much percentage would have to be to reach these 
attainment emission standards?
    Mr. Harto. We have not for the current rules. We plan to do 
some of that analysis in the future. They were just released 
last week, so we have not had a chance to run the numbers. We 
have done it on similarly strong standards, and there is a lot 
of room to apply other technologies.
    Senator Ricketts. OK. Mr. Boyle, we have talked a lot about 
how the trucking industry is on board with reducing emissions. 
You have already been doing it. Talk to me a little bit, 
though, about, you mentioned the patchwork of States also 
trying to do this.
    Can you discuss the impact these rules would have on 
business development strategy? When you have a change like 
this, what does it do for your long-term business planning?
    Mr. Boyle. Yes. I hope I conveyed early on how my company 
is in the top one percent of the top one percent in terms of 
sustainability performance and initiatives. I can tell you 
that, tragically, it is not valued in the marketplace.
    So one other lever that I would suggest that the Federal 
Government has at its disposal is to put out a carrot. Think of 
the purchasing power of the U.S. Postal Service, the General 
Services Administration (GSA), the Department of Defense. None 
of those factor in sustainability of the transportation service 
provider in the procurement decision.
    How about we use market forces to entice people to buy 
newer, cleaner vehicles? And that will enable us to bring that 
40 percent of America's fleet that is on the old standard up to 
current, and that will have, without as much of an investment, 
that will have a greater impact.
    Senator Ricketts. What about, again, just talking about 
your own business planning, when you see changes like this, how 
does that impact your business, specifically?
    Mr. Boyle. I guess we would have to have a lot more trucks 
to service the same amount of freight, and then we would have 
to, we really, as of right now, it is not even a consideration 
to invest in battery electric trucks. The Clean Truck Fleet 
Rule is not saying, as Senator Markey said, hey, particular 
applications is more applicable. No, you are looking at, hey, 
every motor carrier, you have to have this percentage. That is 
just completely irrational.
    Senator Ricketts. You are saying the regulations do not 
accommodate what we are talking about, that maybe school buses 
would be a good application, but long-haul trucks would not be? 
The regulation is too broad, it is too blunt of an instrument 
to actually make that, it does not have that nuance. Is that 
fair?
    Mr. Boyle. That is a great analogy, yes, because all school 
buses have the same characteristics and operation. Trucking is 
so massively diverse.
    Senator Ricketts. I thought you just said something about, 
it is a discouragement to make investments in battery trucks. 
Is that what you just said?
    Mr. Boyle. Yes. Right now, because, as we said, the 
sequence, the power generation, if we said right now, 25 new 
nuclear plants are going in to create clean energy in the 
Country to feed the grid and other renewables, and then in 
parallel we are going to build the charging infrastructure, 
hey, then we are considering it. That is a business decision.
    We all want to reduce fuel consumption. That is good 
business, but without those in place, there is actually no 
consideration whatsoever.
    Senator Ricketts. Thank you, Mr. Boyle.
    Chairman Markey, I would note that under the last 
Administration, the United States was energy independent before 
the Biden Administration's policies that reduced the investment 
by our own companies here in America. We actually did not have 
to do all that importation of other fuel, if we would take 
advantage of our own resources.
    Senator Markey. No, we were importing oil from Saudi Arabia 
and other OPEC countries.
    Senator Ricketts. We were a net exporter of energy, and we 
could be again if we would take advantage of some of the things 
we talked about today about using our resources. Of course, I 
do not think anybody is going to do it better than we are with 
regard to protecting the environment.
    Senator Markey. I appreciate what you are saying, but if we 
did not export our own oil, we could have told Saudi Arabia and 
other countries, we do not need your oil at all. By exporting 
our own oil, we then need Saudi oil.
    In essence, what this revolution is, we are saying to all 
of the oil companies, we are not going to need your oil. We are 
going all electric. It is not going to be drill, baby, drill, 
it is going to be plug in, baby, plug in. It is across the 
whole oil industry, across domestic and international markets.
    I appreciate what you are saying. Ultimately, this plan is 
one to create jobs in America. Let's just say that. If by the 
time we have 50 percent of all vehicles here sold in the United 
States by 2030 are electric, and we do nothing to on-shore the 
EV supply chain or grow the market share for American-made 
vehicles, there will be significant job losses in the United 
States.
    But if 50 percent of vehicles sold in the U.S. in 2030 are 
electric and we increase domestic content and increase the 
market share of American-made cars, 140,000 new jobs will be 
created in the United States.
    So, implementation of this matters. It is going to be very 
important for us to make sure that we get this technological 
and economic and climate justice revolution underway, and that 
it happens in a fair way with environmental justice for our 
communities, for union workers, and with intentional 
implementation of the billions of dollars in new money going to 
the right places, while the EPA has to deliver that we are, in 
fact, delivering for those communities that have always been 
impacted most intensively.
    Again, I will just add one more fact that in 2022, the 
United States was a net petroleum exporter in 2022, so we were 
in fact exporting more oil that we actually imported in 2022. 
That is just the reality of where we are today. This is a 
discussion about how we are moving to the future.
    As a matter of housekeeping, I would like to ask unanimous 
consent to submit for the record a variety of materials that 
include letters from stakeholders and other materials that 
relate to today's nomination hearing. Without objection, so 
ordered.
    [The referenced information follows:]
  [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
    
    Senator Markey. Senators will be allowed to submit written 
questions for the record through the close of business on May 
2nd. We will compile these questions, send them to all of our 
witnesses. We will then ask you to reply by May 16th.
    With that, this very important and reformative hearing is 
adjourned. Thank you.
    [Whereupon, at 4:42 p.m., the hearing was adjourned.]
  

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