[Senate Hearing 118-30]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]



                                                         S. Hrg. 118-30

                      THE EQUAL RIGHTS AMENDMENT:
                HOW CONGRESS CAN RECOGNIZE RATIFICATION
               AND ENSHRINE EQUALITY IN OUR CONSTITUTION

=======================================================================

                                HEARING

                               before the

                       COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY
                          UNITED STATES SENATE

                    ONE HUNDRED EIGHTEENTH CONGRESS

                             FIRST SESSION

                               __________


                           FEBRUARY 28, 2023

                               __________


                           Serial No. J-118-4

                               __________

         Printed for the use of the Committee on the Judiciary





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                        www.judiciary.senate.gov
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                               ______
                                 

                 U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE

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                       COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY

                   RICHARD J. DURBIN, Illinois, Chair

DIANNE FEINSTEIN, California         LINDSEY O. GRAHAM, South Carolina, 
SHELDON WHITEHOUSE, Rhode Island             Ranking Member
AMY KLOBUCHAR, Minnesota             CHARLES E. GRASSLEY, Iowa
CHRISTOPHER A. COONS, Delaware       JOHN CORNYN, Texas
RICHARD BLUMENTHAL, Connecticut      MICHAEL S. LEE, Utah
MAZIE K. HIRONO, Hawaii              TED CRUZ, Texas
CORY A. BOOKER, New Jersey           JOSH HAWLEY, Missouri
ALEX PADILLA, California             TOM COTTON, Arkansas
JON OSSOFF, Georgia                  JOHN KENNEDY, Louisiana
PETER WELCH, Vermont                 THOM TILLIS, North Carolina
                                     MARSHA BLACKBURN, Tennessee

             Joseph Zogby, Chief Counsel and Staff Director
      Katherine Nikas, Republican Chief Counsel and Staff Director








                            C O N T E N T S

                              ----------                              

                           OPENING STATEMENTS

                                                                   Page

Durbin, Hon. Richard J...........................................     1
Graham, Hon. Lindsey O...........................................     3
Feinstein, Hon. Dianne, prepared statement.......................    43

                               WITNESSES

Cardin, Hon. Benjamin L., U.S. Senator from Maryland.............     3

Murkowski, Hon. Lisa, U.S. Senator from Alaska...................     6

Hyde-Smith, Hon. Cindy, U.S. Senator from Mississippi............     5

Braceras, Jennifer C.............................................    11
    Prepared statement...........................................    45
    Questions submitted..........................................    50
    Letter submitted in lieu of responses........................    55

Foley, Elizabeth Price...........................................    14
    Prepared statement...........................................    57
    Responses to written questions...............................    74

Stratton, Hon. Juliana...........................................     9
    Prepared statement...........................................    96
    Responses to written questions...............................    98

Sullivan, Kathleen M.............................................    16
    Prepared statement...........................................   100
    Responses to written questions...............................   105

Williams, Thursday...............................................    12
    Prepared statement...........................................   110
    Responses to written questions...............................   113

                                APPENDIX

Items submitted for the record...................................    41









 
                      THE EQUAL RIGHTS AMENDMENT:
                HOW CONGRESS CAN RECOGNIZE RATIFICATION
               AND ENSHRINE EQUALITY IN OUR CONSTITUTION

                              ----------                              


                       TUESDAY, FEBRUARY 28, 2023

                              United States Senate,
                                Committee on the Judiciary,
                                                    Washington, DC.
    The Committee met, pursuant to notice at 10:01 a.m., in 
Room 106, Dirksen Senate Office Building, Hon. Richard J. 
Durbin, Chair of the Committee, presiding.
    Present: Senators Durbin [presiding], Whitehouse, 
Klobuchar, Blumenthal, Hirono, Booker, Padilla, Ossoff, Welch, 
Graham, Grassley, Cornyn, Lee, Cruz, Hawley, Cotton, and 
Kennedy.
    Also present: Senators Cardin, Hyde-Smith, and Murkowski.

          OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. RICHARD J. DURBIN,
           A U.S. SENATOR FROM THE STATE OF ILLINOIS

    Chair Durbin. This meeting of the Senate Judiciary 
Committee will come to order.
    [Gavel is tapped three times.]
    [Pause.]
    [Gavel is tapped three times.]
    Chair Durbin. This meeting of the Senate Judiciary 
Committee will come to order. Well, it was a long time ago, 
many years, I was a young lawyer on my first assignment, new 
graduate of Georgetown Law School. I returned home to my home 
State of Illinois where I was working in the Illinois State 
Senate for the Lieutenant Governor Paul Simon. At the time, the 
lawmakers in my State were considering the ratification of a 
constitutional amendment that was first introduced many years 
before, in 1923. It was called the Equal Rights Amendment.
    Well, here we are, a century after its first introduction, 
2023, and here I am nearly 50 years after I started that first 
assignment. It's time to get the job done. In fact, it's long 
overdue.
    Today, this Committee is holding a hearing on finally--
finally, enshrining the Equal Rights Amendment into the 
Constitution. I want to start with a video----
    [Applause.]
    Chair Durbin. Thank you. I want to start with a video which 
gives us a little insight into the history of this issue.
    [Video is presented.]
    Chair Durbin. I apologize for the audio. We'll try to make 
that a little better the next time, but we didn't want anyone 
to miss any words. The principle of equal justice under the law 
is fundamental to who we are as a Nation. But unless that 
principle is protected in our Constitution, it is nothing more 
than words. For 100 years, Americans have been fighting to 
enshrine equality in our Constitution with the Equal Rights 
Amendment--100 years.
    In the half-century since Congress approved the ERA, 38 
States have ratified it. That's the exact number of States 
needed to certify the ERA as the Twenty-Eighth Amendment to the 
Constitution. So why the holdup? When Congress first approved 
the ERA in 1972, it imposed an arbitrary time limit on the 
ratification process. But that was more than 50 years ago. In 
the decades since, as I mentioned, the Amendment has crossed 
the 38-State threshold with Virginia becoming the most recent 
State to approve it in 2020. Think of it this way: If not for 
Congress standing in the way, the ERA would already be on the 
books. So it's time to clear the path for equality.
    The joint resolution we're considering today will repeal 
that arbitrary deadline in the preamble of this resolution once 
and for all. There is no room for uncertainty when it comes to 
protecting equal rights under the law. Sadly, that lesson was 
driven home last year by the Supreme Court's decision to 
overturn Roe v. Wade and--for the first time in history--to 
take away a constitutional right from every woman in America.
    For years, we've heard well-known arguments against the 
ERA. I remember the single-sex bathroom argument of many years 
ago. Some have argued that it's not necessary. Others have 
argued it's dangerous. Others have claimed that the ERA and the 
Fourteenth Amendment are redundant.
    The reality is that the Supreme Court, which at the time 
was made up entirely of male Justices, established a lower 
level of scrutiny for sex discrimination claims under the 
Fourteenth Amendment. The ERA would finally change this.
    When we have a conservative super majority on the Supreme 
Court who believe the meaning of the Fourteenth Amendment was 
set in stone when it was ratified at 1868, the ERA is far from 
redundant. When a sitting judge--Justice on the Supreme Court, 
Clarence Thomas, argues that the Court should reconsider 
constitutional protections for family planning and birth 
control, protections the Court recognized under the Fourteenth 
Amendment nearly 60 years ago, the ERA is far from redundant, 
far from unnecessary.
    So now, the question for Members of this Committee is 
straightforward. What kind of America do we want to leave our 
daughters and granddaughters? A country in which their 
fundamental rights are safe and secure? Or one in which the 
Constitution continues to fail to recognize fundamental 
equality on the basis of sex? As a father and a grandfather, I 
think the answer is obvious. Let's live up to the promise of 
equal justice under the law.
    Join us in supporting this resolution to revoke the 
deadline on the ERA's ratification. There is no time limit on 
equality. With that, I'll turn to the Ranking Member Lindsey 
Graham for his opening statement.

          OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. LINDSEY O. GRAHAM,
        A U.S. SENATOR FROM THE STATE OF SOUTH CAROLINA

    Senator Graham. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Well, this is a 
hearing--this has a political agenda, which is okay. We're a 
political body. I have absolutely no problem talking about 
political things. Everybody's entitled to their causes. 
Everybody in America can push as hard as they like, but you got 
to look at the facts. So in 1972, the Congress, as you said, 
Mr. Chairman, by two-thirds vote, put in motion the 
ratification of the Equal Rights Amendment, as drafted in 1972, 
for a 7-year period.
    Apparently, during that time period, they fell 3 votes 
short of 38. And this is what Justice Ginsburg said: ``The ERA 
fell three States short of ratification. I hope someday it will 
be put back in the political hopper, starting over again, 
collecting the necessary number of States to ratify it.''
    So that's what she said. Now, there was an extension by 
majority of vote from 1979 to 1982, which you referred to, to 
give three more years to try to make up the shortfall. That 
didn't happen. But what did happen, five States who had 
previously ratified the Amendment rescinded it: Kentucky, 
Idaho, Nebraska, Tennessee, and South Dakota.
    So, from the time period in question, the support for the 
Amendment went backward. And this resolution before us is 
pretty simple. It says there will be no time limit to ratify 
the Equal Rights Amendment, but it also acknowledges that the 
Equal Rights Amendment is part of our Constitution. Well, 
that's what disturbs me the most because it never received 38 
States during the time period in question.
    In Dillon v. Gloss, the Supreme Court concluded that 
Congress has the power to set time limits on when the Amendment 
must be ratified. So it's gone to the Supreme Court. You lost 
there. It never got 38 votes before 1982. There's been an 
effort to 1982 to add to the vote total. You didn't mention 
that five States rescinded. So it's never gotten 38 votes if 
you count rescinding by 5 States. And I think it'll be pretty 
obvious why five States rescinded when you look at the 
potential effect of this Amendment.
    So we will have this debate, and I think we're going to 
have a vote on the floor. I think Senator Schumer promised a 
cloture vote. I think it will fall well short of the 60 votes 
necessary. And I'll be glad to talk about the reasons why, but 
thank you for the hearing.
    Chair Durbin. Thank you, Senator Graham. Today, we welcome 
three Members of Congress to testify before the Committee on 
the Equal Rights Amendment: Senator Ben Cardin of Maryland, 
Senator Lisa Murkowski of Alaska, and Senator Hyde-Smith of 
Mississippi. Senators Cardin and Murkowski have co-led the 
bipartisan Joint Resolution to affirm ratification of the ERA 
by removing the arbitrary deadline in its preamble. Senator 
Cardin, could you please proceed with your statement?

             STATEMENT OF HON. BENJAMIN L. CARDIN,
           A U.S. SENATOR FROM THE STATE OF MARYLAND

    Senator Cardin. Well, first, thank you, Chairman Durbin. 
And I also want to thank Ranking Member Graham for the courtesy 
of being able to testify on this bill. And thank you for 
holding this hearing.
    I do want to acknowledge the extraordinary leadership of 
Senator Murkowski on this issue, maintaining the bipartisan 
support for the Equal Rights Amendment, which we saw from its 
inception. This is not about any one issue, but it's about 
putting in our Constitution a lens of equality in judging the 
actions of our States and laws of our country.
    Senate Joint Resolution 4 simply states--and you put this 
in the video, but I want to repeat it because it's pretty 
straightforward--``Equality of rights under the law shall not 
be denied or abridged by the United States or any State on the 
count of sex.'' Quite frankly, most Americans already believe 
this is in our Constitution, but Congress needs to complete the 
job and remove any ambiguity. Thirty-eight States have ratified 
the Amendment. That's the prerequisite number, three-quarters 
of the States of our Nation.
    Article V of the Constitution puts no time limits on the 
amount of time necessary for ratification. And I point out that 
the Twenty-Seventh Amendment of our Constitution was part of 
the original Bill of Rights proposed in 1791 and ultimately 
ratified in 1992--over 200 years later--dealing with the 
congressional pay issue. Congress established a time limit for 
ratification. We're unclear of the effect on that. Congress has 
the authority to remove that time limit.
    Senate Joint Resolution 4 does exactly that. The precedent 
for Congress to declare that a requisite number of States that 
ratified a constitutional amendment, as the House and Senate 
did this in 1992 by the resolution affirming the validity of 
the Twenty-Seventh Amendment.
    So this is not the first time we see in a resolution the 
acknowledgment that the prerequisite number of States have 
ratified the constitutional amendment. And as you point out, 
there should be no time limit on equality.
    It is needed to advance equality in the fields of workforce 
and pay, sexual harassment and violence, protection for the 
LGBTQ+ community, and so many other areas where this particular 
provision would provide a strict standard for the courts to 
apply in regards to laws and governmental policies. The Equal 
Rights Amendment is all about equality, the most fundamental of 
American values.
    One hundred years ago, women received the right to vote, 
and it's been a 100-year struggle to put the Equal Rights 
Amendment in the Constitution. America's strength is in its 
values. Mr. Chairman, I would point out that 85 percent of the 
countries in the world have some form of an Equal Rights 
Amendment in their constitution, and most of our States have 
some provision against discrimination based upon sex.
    The U.S. is the only industrial democracy that does not 
have a protection in their Constitution against discrimination 
based upon sex. The ERA is important for us to pay us in 
regards to our own protections, but also for America's 
leadership on our basic values. We got to take care of our work 
at home first.
    So on behalf of my wife, on behalf of my two 
granddaughters, and my daughter, and all Americans, let us do 
what's right to put equality in our Constitution to take a 
major step forward. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    [Applause.]
    Chair Durbin. Thank you, Senator Cardin. Senator Hyde-
Smith.

              STATEMENT OF HON. CINDY HYDE-SMITH,
          A U.S. SENATOR FROM THE STATE OF MISSISSIPPI

    Senator Hyde-Smith. Good morning, Chairman Durbin and 
Ranking Member Graham, and colleagues. I sure appreciate this 
opportunity very, very much, and I'm honored to be here this 
morning to discuss the Equal Rights Amendment, the 
unconstitutional and deeply misguided effort to resurrect a 
proposed constitutional amendment that expired over 40 years 
ago. The Equal Rights Amendment proposes to add very vague 
language to the U.S. Constitution to ensure equality between 
the sexes.
    However, the ERA won't do that. In fact, it would do the 
exact opposite and instead harm the very woman it intends to 
protect.
    Since 1972, the year that the Equal Rights Amendment was 
sent to the States for potential ratification, women's rights 
have advanced by leaps and bounds. Good things came out of 
this.
    Today, every State has elected women to represent them in 
Washington, and Congress has a record number of women. That 
includes me, the very first woman to represent Mississippi in 
Congress.
    Women are already protected from discrimination under the 
law through the Fourteenth Amendment to the Constitution, which 
ensures equal protection under the law.
    Women's rights are also protected by the Equal Pay Act of 
1963, the Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, the Title 
IX of the Education Amendment of 1972, the Pregnancy 
Discrimination Act of 1978, and more.
    The Equal Rights Amendment would only muddy the waters. 
Because of its vague language, it would work to undo many of 
these great achievements, and it does not allow for any 
distinction between men and women, even when it would make 
sense to do so based on biological differences.
    I'm particularly concerned about the privacy and the safety 
for women and girls that the Equal Rights Amendment would 
destroy: Locker rooms, prisons, hospital rooms, domestic 
violence shelters, and restrooms would allow men into areas 
where women should feel safe and protected and have privacy.
    Advocates of the ERA are also no longer shy about their 
goal to use ERA to impose unrestricted abortion on demand up to 
the moment of birth across the Nation and to enforce taxpayers 
to pay for this. Their apparent goal is to use ERA to overturn 
the Dobbs decision that returned the issue of abortion to the 
legislative process and instead re-empower unelected judges to 
impose a radical abortion policy that is in line with China and 
North Korea.
    Even the most modest pro-life protections, like waiting 
periods, parental involvement laws, and restrictions on late-
term abortions or partial-birth abortions, when the babies 
really feel this pain, could be struck down by the ERA.
    Beyond the problematic content in the Amendment, all 
Senators should be offended of the blatant disrespect for the 
legislative process with this effort to resurrect this long-
expired Amendment. The legitimate constitutional role of 
Congress in the constitutional amendment process ended when 
Congress submitted the Equal Rights Amendments to the States on 
March the 22nd, 1972.
    In Idaho v. Freeman, Federal District Judge Marion 
Callister held that Article V does not permit Congress to 
extend a ratification deadline, writing that once the proposal 
is made, Congress is not at liberty to change it. As Ruth Bader 
Ginsburg, a long proponent of the Equal Rights Amendment said 
in 2020: ``I would like to see a new beginning. I'd like it to 
start over.''
    Congress has no power to go back in time and resurrect an 
expired constitutional amendment like the ERA. Under Article V, 
however, Congress may again propose the same or modified 
language addressing the same subject and try to approve a new 
joint resolution with the required two-thirds votes in each 
House of Congress. The 1972 Equal Rights Amendment would harm 
the rights of women and weaken the United States Constitution. 
I call on my colleagues to reject this unconstitutional and 
misguided effort. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    [Applause.]
    Chair Durbin. Thank you, Senator Hyde-Smith. Senator 
Murkowski.

               STATEMENT OF HON. LISA MURKOWSKI,
            A U.S. SENATOR FROM THE STATE OF ALASKA

    Senator Murkowski. Thank you, Chairman Durbin, to Ranking 
Member Graham, to Members of the Committee. It is good to be 
here today to testify about this ERA resolution, a resolution 
that Senator Cardin and I have introduced for three Congresses 
now. Three Congresses, we have introduced the same language to 
put before colleagues here. I want to thank Senator Cardin for 
his leadership in advocating for equal rights for women year 
over year over year.
    And I really am glad that we're able to get before the 
Committee here today. At least since I've been working on this 
issue, I think there's been a surprising lack of attention by 
the Senate on this. In fact, as I talk to so many people, they 
say, ``Well, we thought that the Equal Rights Amendment had 
already been adopted.'' They actually believe that we've taken 
care of.
    I'm going to speak quickly on our Resolution's contents and 
some of the process issues, but I'd like to spend most of my 
time talking about why the Resolution is important and why the 
Equal Rights Amendment is still needed.
    I think you, Mr. Chairman, have outlined much of the 
process here, and Senator Cardin has spoken to the very clear 
and, I think, very, very direct language that is included 
within the Equal Rights Amendment. It is not convoluted. It is 
not vague. It is very clear that what we're talking about is 
advocating equal rights for women under the law.
    S.J. Res. 4 removes the deadline for ratification by the 
States. It clears the hurdle for the Archivist to publish and 
certify the ERA. It also affirms that the ERA has been ratified 
by three-fourths of the States after Virginia became the 38th 
State to ratify the Amendment back in 2020.
    And I know that there is debate about the authority of 
Congress to remove that deadline. It's been noted by Senator 
Graham whether or not that the ERA has been ratified by the 38 
States given later rescission by five of them.
    What we are trying to do with this resolution, some may 
say, is a little novel, but what we're trying to say here is 
what has happened in the States should not die here in the 
Senate. The fact is there's no law, there's no Supreme Court 
precedent that says that our resolution is somehow 
unconstitutional or something that Congress cannot do.
    So, putting aside all that, I do look forward to what the 
Committee will hear in this next panel about these issues. But 
I would like to just give a few statistics in terms of why I 
think the Equal Rights Amendment is still needed, why it is not 
redundant.
    According to the 2020 Census, women are about half--50.5 
percent--of the U.S. population. Compare this to the makeup of 
the Senate, 25 percent of us are women. As Senator Hyde-Smith 
has noted, that's a record number. A record 128 women are 
serving in the House, but this is still only 29 percent of the 
Chamber's total. I don't think we're there yet. I'm not 
satisfied with that.
    This Committee--you've been very active in processing 
judicial nominations, so just look at the nominations for the 
Federal bench: 38 percent of active district court judges are 
women; 66 of 170 active circuit court judges are women. That's 
39 percent.
    So we're making some progress. We're making some progress, 
that's good. Is it good enough? It shouldn't be good enough.
    In the private sector, only about 10 percent of Fortune 500 
companies have women CEOs, and this is the first time in 
history a double-digit number has been reached.
    Notably and significantly, in 2021, women earned about 82 
cents for every dollar men earned, certainly less than that in 
many States. Peeling back the layers of the onion, the gender 
pay gap was even greater for full-time female managers, who 
earned an estimated 77 cents for every dollar earned by full-
time male managers.
    Now, we know--we know that things have improved over the 
years, but we still have a long way to go when it comes to 
achieving equality for women. And I think that we need the 
Equal Rights Amendment to get there.
    I'm very proud of the fact that in Alaska, we ratified the 
ERA in 1972, the same year that it passed the House and the 
Senate and was signed by President Carter. A few months later, 
Alaskans amended the State constitution to prohibit 
discrimination based on sex.
    Mr. Chairman, women should have equal treatment to men 
under the law, and Congress should do all that it can to ensure 
that the ERA is finally made part of the Constitution. I think 
it's long overdue.
    Senator Graham has mentioned that he's looking forward to 
the debate here to have a discussion about the potential effect 
of this resolution. I would suggest to you that the potential 
effect of this resolution is to ensure equal treatment under 
the law for women in this country. Thank you. I thank the 
Committee.
    [Applause.]
    [Gavel is tapped twice.]
    Chair Durbin. It's a little late for me to bring this up, 
but I'm going to anyway----
    [Laughter.]
    Chair Durbin [continuing]. I ask those who are our guests 
here today and members of the audience to refrain from any type 
of interruption of the proceeding if they can, on both sides.
    I thank everybody who's here for attending, but we're going 
to try to keep this at a certain centrist level of this debate 
for fairness on both sides. Let me thank my colleagues for 
coming.
    Senator Cardin, Senator Hyde-Smith, Senator Murkowski, we 
know you have a busy schedule, but we think your contribution 
to this conversation on the Equal Rights Amendment is historic 
and important. Thank you for joining us.
    We're now going to bring the second panel to the Committee. 
We welcome five witnesses. I will introduce the Majority 
witnesses and turn to Ranking Member Graham to introduce the 
Minority witnesses.
    We have a slight change in the program. Our first witness 
is going to be Illinois Lieutenant Governor Juliana Stratton, 
who serves as my State's 48th Lieutenant Governor. She 
previously served as a member of the Illinois House of 
Representatives where she worked to ratify the ERA in Illinois. 
Lieutenant Governor Stratton is joining us remotely because, 
unfortunately, we learned this morning she tested positive for 
COVID-19. I'm grateful she's still able to participate.
    We also are joined by Thursday Williams. Ms. Williams is a 
board member of the ERA Coalition and a former cast member of a 
Broadway show, ``What the Constitution Means to Me.''
    Our final Majority witness is Kathleen Sullivan, currently 
serving as senior counsel at Quinn Emanuel and previously 
served as dean of the Stanford Law School. Let me turn to 
Ranking Member Graham to introduce his witnesses.
    Senator Graham. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. We have Ms. 
Elizabeth Foley. Professor Foley is a tenured professor and 
teaches constitutional law, civil procedure, and healthcare law 
at Florida International University College of Law. She went to 
University of Tennessee to get her J.D. and Harvard for her 
masters. She is of counsel at BakerHostetler, where her 
practice focuses on jurisdiction, separation of powers, 
appellate practice. She's a frequent media commentator, has 
published three books on constitutional law, has authored and 
co-authored numerous amicus briefs before the U.S. Supreme 
Court.
    She serves on the Florida Advisory Committee of the United 
States Commission on Civil Rights, on the editorial board of 
the Cato Supreme Court Review, and the research advisory board 
of the James Madison Institute. She is also a member of the 
American Health Law Association and the American Bar 
Association. She previously served as member of the Committee 
on Embryonic Stem Cell Guidelines at the Institute of Medicine, 
National Academy of Sciences, was Fulbright Scholar at the 
College of Law at the National University of Ireland.
    Ms. Jennifer Braceras is a lawyer, columnist, political 
analyst. She is a graduate of Harvard Law School. She was an 
editor on the Law Review at Harvard. She is director of the 
Independent Women's Law Center, a project of the Independent 
Woman's Forum. The organization defends free speech, due 
process, educational freedom, and the continued legal relevance 
of biological sex.
    Ms. Braceras is an expert on Title IX of the Education 
Amendment of 1972. She has also been widely published by 
numerous networks and previously taught courses on civil 
rights, constitutional law at Boston College Law School and 
Suffolk University Law School. She's a former member of the 
United States Commission on Civil Rights and former trustee of 
the University of Massachusetts. Thank you.
    Chair Durbin. Thank you very much, Senator Graham. Let me 
lay out the mechanics for the hearing. After I swear in the 
witnesses, each witness will have 5 minutes to provide an 
opening statement. And then, a round of questions--each Senator 
has 5 minutes to ask questions. And I ask all to try to remain 
within their allotted time.
    So I'd ask those who are physically present to approach the 
witness table and stay standing for just one moment while I 
administer the oath. And I hope Lieutenant Governor Stratton is 
remotely joining us and she will join in this oath-taking. If 
you please raise your right hand.
    [Witnesses are sworn in.]
    Chair Durbin. Let the record reflect that all of the 
witnesses have answered in the affirmative. And I'm going to 
first defer to Lieutenant Governor Stratton for her opening 
statement. Let's hope that this is working. Lieutenant 
Governor, are you with us?

STATEMENT OF HON. JULIANA STRATTON, LIEUTENANT GOVERNOR, STATE 
               OF ILLINOIS, SPRINGFIELD, ILLINOIS

    Lieutenant Governor Stratton. Good morning. And thank you, 
Chairman Durbin, Ranking Member Graham, and the distinguished 
Members of the Senate Judiciary Committee for the opportunity 
to testify before you virtually today.
    My name is Juliana Stratton. I am the Lieutenant Governor 
of the great State of Illinois. I am the mother of four 
daughters, and I use she/her pronouns.
    I am honored to be here today on this final day of Black 
History Month and on the eve of Women's History Month to do my 
part in a fight that started long before me.
    I stand upon the shoulders of women like Sojourner Truth 
and Ida B. Wells, Fannie Lou Hamer, and so many others who 
paved the way for the rights of all women. They sacrificed so 
much to push us forward, and yet we still live in a country 
that does not guarantee we should be protected from 
discrimination in the Constitution. An explicit assertion that 
we are all equals is still missing despite the women lawmakers 
across the Nation who stood up to finish the work our 
Foremothers started.
    In May 2018, I was one of those women. As a State 
representative, I joined a bipartisan vote for Illinois to 
ratify the Equal Rights Amendment. I made it clear to my 
colleagues in the Illinois House that gender equality and 
racial equality are not a zero-sum game, that we are all lifted 
up when everyone's rights are protected. We live with the stark 
reality that despite being the most educated demographic in the 
United States, Black women are only paid 64 cents for every 
dollar paid to white men.
    There should be stronger remedies to make sure women, all 
women, are paid an equal wage based on their abilities and 
qualifications and without discrimination based on sex. These 
protections will be of particular significance to women of 
color who face more workplace discrimination than their white 
counterparts.
    And despite impressive recovery efforts, the COVID-19 
pandemic has deepened economic disparities that have already 
harmed women for generations. The recovery for jobs 
traditionally held by women have lagged woefully behind the 
jobs often worked by men.
    Also, women are twice as likely as men to work in low-
paying occupations, and this rate is even higher for Black 
women and Latinas.
    On top of this, we are seeing the eroding of women's rights 
and their ability to determine what is best for their futures. 
Recent events have shown us all too well how easily decades of 
progress can be erased when our rights are not guaranteed by 
the Constitution.
    Every parent wants their child to have a better life. And 
that was certainly true for my late mother, Velma, who spent 
every day doing what she could to ensure doors of opportunity 
were open to me and her four children.
    And now, I have a responsibility to my daughters, Tyler, 
Cassidy, Ryan, and Mackenzie, to honor my mother's legacy and 
ensure they can go even farther on this journey toward equality 
and justice--not just for them, but for young women and girls 
everywhere who deserve nothing less.
    Make no mistake, should the ERA pass, it will not guarantee 
that women will be treated equally overnight. We all know, for 
example, that the struggle continues for racial justice and 
equal rights for Black people and other people of color under 
the Fourteenth Amendment. And women will also need to remain 
vigilant.
    We need a firm foundation for equality that is long 
overdue. Finishing this work is as important as ever to 
acknowledge the rights that women, who make up over half the 
population, so deserve.
    So I urge Congress when taking action to consider your 
mothers, your daughters, and the women in your districts. It's 
time to make real a vision 100 years in the making so that our 
daughters and our granddaughters and the next generation of 
women are seen as exactly who they are: equals. Thank you.
    [The prepared statement of Lieutenant Governor Stratton 
appears as a submission for the record.]
    Chair Durbin. Thank you, Lieutenant Governor. Our next 
witness, help me pronounce your name--Braceras? Correct? Ms. 
Jennifer Braceras, please proceed.
    Ms. Braceras. Thank you, Chairman Durbin----
    Chair Durbin. You need to turn your microphone on. Slide 
your finger over the red light. It should work. I hope it does.

   STATEMENT OF JENNIFER C. BRACERAS, DIRECTOR, INDEPENDENT 
    WOMEN'S LAW CENTER, INDEPENDENT WOMEN'S FORUM, CONCORD, 
                         MASSACHUSETTS

    Ms. Braceras. Yes. Okay. Thank you, Chairman Durbin, 
Ranking Member Graham, and distinguished Members of the 
Committee.
    On behalf of Independent Women's Law Center and as the 
mother of four children, including three daughters, I am here 
to warn you. The ERA is a Trojan horse. It promises equality, 
but hidden inside the empty rhetoric is a laundry list of 
policies that will harm women and girls. Back when the ERA was 
introduced in the House in 1971----
    [Disturbance occurs in the hearing room.]
    Chair Durbin. Can I ask the Capitol Police to enforce?
    [Disturbance continues in the hearing room.]
    [Gavel is tapped twice.]
    [Disturbance continues in the hearing room.]
    [Gavel is tapped.]
    Chair Durbin. Let's try to maintain order so we can get 
through this proceeding and have all points of view expressed.
    Ms. Braceras. The people who have been locked out of this 
process, frankly, are the 62 percent of American voters who 
either weren't born or were too young to vote when the ERA 
expired in 1979.
    But, as I was saying, when the ERA was introduced in the 
House in 1971, it was still lawful to deny women credit, to 
refuse to sell or rent housing to women, to sexually harass 
women at work and at school, and to bar them from certain 
schools or certain fields of study.
    Millions of Americans supported the ERA at that time as a 
solution to these problems. Frankly, I might have, too, had I 
been more than 3 years old. But 52 years later, I'm happy to 
say that sex discrimination and sexual harassment are illegal 
in the United States of America. And public policies that treat 
one sex less favorably than the other are already 
unconstitutional under the Equal Protection Clause.
    Today, my three daughters and my son are legally equal. 
Indeed, so much has changed since the 1970s that even the late 
Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg believed that when it comes to the 
law, quote, ``there is no practical difference between what has 
evolved and the ERA.'' The ERA is therefore unnecessary in 
2023. But that is precisely why it is so dangerous.
    To begin with, the ERA does not define the word ``sex.'' In 
1971, there was no need to. We all knew that it meant 
biological sex.
    Today, ideologues are actively trying to redefine the term 
to include gender identity. And there can be no doubt that they 
will use the ERA to constitutionally mandate the ability of 
male prisoners to self-identify into women's facilities, 
taxpayer funding of puberty blockers for trans-identified 
teens, and the participation of biological males on women's 
sports teams.
    But even if the ERA did define the phrase sex consistent 
with biology, the Amendment would still jeopardize many single-
sex spaces we take for granted.
    Layering the ERA on top of the Equal Protection Clause 
could suggest that it requires something more. And it might 
imply that it forbids public policies that ever distinguished 
between males and females. But males and females are not the 
same. We never will be. And our laws and public policies 
shouldn't treat us as if we're interchangeable.
    Do Members of this Committee really want to 
constitutionally forbid public schools from offering single-sex 
sports teams, sexual assault support groups, or even 
fraternities and sororities? Do you want to outlaw grants to 
female-owned businesses or grants that encourage women and 
girls in STEM?
    Because make no mistake, by applying the strictest 
constitutional scrutiny to sex-based programs, this is what the 
ERA will achieve. But it gets worse. The ERA has the potential 
to outlaw not only single-sex spaces, but all sex disparities, 
or so its proponents claim.
    But what if the disparities favor women? Women today earn 
the majority of bachelor's and master's degrees. Should State 
schools be forced to discriminate against women in order to 
achieve parity in all programs? Should the Government be 
required not only to draft women but to draft them and send 
them into combat in equal numbers as men? Shouldn't we at least 
let the State legislators who represent today's voters debate 
and vote on the merits of these policies before we force them 
on an unsuspecting public?
    The ERA would be devastating not only to women and girls, 
but also to religious liberty, threatening the tax-exempt 
status of religious groups that ordain only men, and prohibit 
Federal funding of religious organizations that counsel young 
people about biological sex differences.
    Americans could certainly choose to amend the Constitution 
to do any of these things, but at no point have 38 States 
agreed to an amendment that would do these things, and Congress 
cannot now dissolve the ERA's ratification deadline and claim 
that they have. Thank you.
    [The prepared statement of Ms. Braceras appears as a 
submission for the record.]
    Chair Durbin. Thank you, Ms. Braceras. Ms. Williams.

 STATEMENT OF THURSDAY WILLIAMS, COLLEGE STUDENT, FORMER CAST 
   MEMBER OF ``WHAT THE CONSTITUTION MEANS TO ME,'' AND ERA 
         COALITION BOARD MEMBER, HARTFORD, CONNECTICUT

    Ms. Williams. Good morning, Chairman Durbin, Ranking Member 
Graham, and Members of the Committee on the Judiciary.
    My name is Thursday Williams. I am currently a senior at 
Trinity College in Connecticut, and I serve on the board of the 
ERA Coalition. It is such an honor to be here today testifying 
on behalf of the Equal Rights Amendment. Thank you, Senator 
Durbin, for inviting me to share my story of why the Equal 
Rights Amendment is important to me, my peers, and the future 
generation.
    We are at a tipping point. The future of our democracy is 
at stake. The ERA holds the promise of a brighter future for us 
all.
    My family came to this country from Jamaica seeking the 
American dream of education and productivity, and my mission is 
to fulfill that dream. I proudly became a citizen, was accepted 
into a competitive college, took on leadership roles, became 
president of Trinity College Black Women's Organization, and 
engaged in spirited debates about rights and freedom.
    I fell in love with the United States Constitution in high 
school when I participated in constitutional debates through 
the legal outreach program. I argued multiple constitutional 
issues at NYU and Brooklyn Law School, including the Equal 
Protection Clause, the Fourth Amendment, and voting rights.
    What I love the most about the Constitution is how 
brilliantly it was designed to adapt to the changing needs of 
its people. Our Founding Fathers were visionaries. They 
understood that we needed a document that can endure throughout 
generations. That's when I knew this was the thing for me. I 
wanted to study law. I wanted to be one of the change makers.
    During my senior year of high school, I had the opportunity 
to perform in an award-winning Broadway play, ``What the 
Constitution Means to Me.'' Each night, I debated why we should 
keep the United States Constitution. There was a part in the 
play where I was talking about inequality, and I was thinking 
about the fact that not so long ago, I would have been 
considered property. Not so long ago, I wouldn't even have had 
the opportunity to stand on stage as a Black woman.
    In my closing argument during one performance, I stopped 
mid-show, and I just stood there crying my eyes out at the 
idea. Here I am defending a Constitution that at one point 
considered me three-fifths of a person, a Constitution that 
doesn't explicitly recognize women in it, a Constitution that 
in 2023 still doesn't explicitly state that I am equal to a 
man. For the first time, it became clear to me that this 
document was not written for me.
    Nevertheless, I will continue to defend this Constitution, 
and I will fight for my rightful place in it. This is why I am 
here today. I am here to defend an amendment that would finally 
guarantee me equality.
    After graduating in May, I will be starting my professional 
career at one of the most prestigious law firms in the country. 
As exciting as this should be, I proceed with caution because I 
am aware that although I am as capable as any man, the system 
is stacked against me.
    As a woman of color, I am more likely to be offered less 
than a man for the same work. I am more likely to be overlooked 
for raises and promotions. I will have to work twice as hard to 
get the same recognition as my male colleagues. And right now, 
I will have limited recourse to fight against it.
    This is why it is important for myself, my peers, and the 
future generation to have the Equal Rights Amendment. We 
deserve a Constitution that guarantees equality regardless of 
sex, a Constitution that we can use as a tool to fight 
discrimination. The Equal Rights Amendment has fulfilled all 
requirements to be added to the Constitution. Now, it is time 
for it to be recognized.
    If we continue to hold back more than half of our people 
from accessing equal opportunities, what does that say about us 
as a country? How can we be the beacon of freedom and democracy 
we claim to be if we do not declare that sex discrimination 
contradicts the American dream?
    The ERA will make the Constitution a more perfect document 
so we can have a more perfect Union. It is time we stop 
disappointing the future generation. Thank you.
    [The prepared statement of Ms. Williams appears as a 
submission for the record.]
    Chair Durbin. Thank you very much, Ms. Williams. Professor 
Foley.

 STATEMENT OF ELIZABETH PRICE FOLEY, PROFESSOR OF LAW, FLORIDA 
    INTERNATIONAL UNIVERSITY COLLEGE OF LAW, MIAMI, FLORIDA

    Professor Foley. Thank you, Chairman Durbin, Ranking Member 
Graham, Members of the Committee, I'm grateful for the 
opportunity to testify about this important issue. And as a 
constitutional law professor and someone who practices 
constitutional law, I'm going to stick to the law.
    Okay, so let's talk about Article V of the Constitution. 
Article V of the Constitution gives Congress an express power 
to propose constitutional amendments, including a power to 
propose their mode of ratification, and Congress usually does 
this via a joint resolution.
    Once that joint resolution passes by two-thirds super 
majorities as required by Article V, Congress' role under the 
Constitution is done. It's exercised all the power that it has 
under Article V. And, in fact, it is the entire joint 
resolution, including its preamble, that is then submitted to 
the States for ratification. The joint resolution that you 
would pass in your Article V capacity is the proposal itself. 
So preambles are therefore not only a part of the Article V 
proposal, they are often an important part because they often 
contain the mode of ratification.
    So let me give you a quick example. When Congress passed 
the Bill of Rights proposal, the preamble specified that those 
Amendments, the first 10 Amendments to the Constitution, those 
Amendments' mode of ratification must be by State legislatures 
rather than State conventions. And the Twenty-Third through 
Twenty-Sixth Amendments, like the ERA, contain a 7-year 
ratification deadline in their preambles.
    So let's talk about the caselaw now. We've already 
mentioned Dillon v. Gloss. This is the most important Supreme 
Court case. The Court there unanimously held that a 7-year 
ratification deadline that was contained in the Eighteenth 
Amendment, the Prohibition Amendment, was judicially 
enforceable because it was an exercise of Congress' power to 
propose a mode of ratification under Article V.
    Now, ERA proponents prefer to kind of ignore Dillon, and 
they focus instead on a plurality opinion that was pinned by 
Justice Black in the 1939 decision in Coleman v. Miller. Now, 
Black's plurality in Coleman took the position, like the ERA 
proponents do now, that all ratification issues are 
nonjusticiable political questions that Congress alone can 
resolve, not the courts. But of course, we all know--most of us 
in the room are lawyers--the Black plurality is just that. It's 
a plurality. It got four votes.
    The other five Justices in Coleman, the majority of the 
Court, took a narrower view and held that Congress alone can 
decide if an amendment has been ratified in a timely fashion, 
and, importantly, it can do so by specifying a ratification 
deadline in its proposal. If there's no ratification period 
specified by Congress in its proposal, like with the Child 
Labor Amendment, which was what was at issue in Coleman, then 
the Court won't sort of superimpose one. The amendment will 
remain open indefinitely for ratification.
    And that's what happened, for example, with the Twenty-
Seventh Amendment, which took 203 years to ratify and was 
ultimately ratified in 1992 after being one of James Madison's 
original 12 Articles proposed.
    [Disturbance occurs in the hearing room.]
    Chair Durbin. Please----
    [Gavel is tapped twice.]
    Chair Durbin [continuing]. Restore order.
    [Disturbance continues in the hearing room.]
    Chair Durbin. Disruption does not help.
    [Disturbance continues in the hearing room.]
    Chair Durbin. I'm sorry, Professor Foley. Please proceed.
    Professor Foley. Yes, no worries. All right. So if Congress 
does specify a ratification deadline in its proposal, like it 
did with the Eighteenth Amendment in Dillon and like it has 
done with the ERA, then the Court will in fact enforce that 
deadline. And either way, notice that Congress is the one in 
control. It can define the terms that it wants in its proposal 
that it initially submits to the States.
    Now, given the Supreme Court precedent, it should be 
unsurprising that we have two district court opinions that have 
both held that the ERA's ratification deadline is in fact 
enforceable.
    There was the Idaho v. Freeman case, of which I think 
someone mentioned earlier from 1981, and then, most recently, 
we have the Virginia v. Ferriero case from the D.C. District 
Court in 2021. Both of these courts have expressly rejected the 
argument that the ERA's ratification deadline is ineffective 
because it's in the preamble. In Ferriero, for example, Judge 
Contreras, who's an Obama appointee, held that the ERA's 
deadline was operative and not precatory.
    So, unlike the Constitution's preamble or preambles in 
ordinary statutes, the ERA's deadline doesn't use flowery 
language that doesn't have some sort of discernible standard. 
It's operative language.
    Moreover, and importantly, I think, Congress and the States 
have a very longstanding history of treating the mode of 
ratification that's contained in a preamble as binding. I gave 
you the previous example of the Bill of Rights preamble. This 
history is entitled to great weight and has been by courts.
    And finally, Ferriero's ratification analysis isn't dicta 
as some of the ERA proponents claim. Judge Contreras expressly 
stated twice in his opinion that his conclusions both on 
standing and ratification were what he called alternate 
holdings. And as lawyers in the room know, it's black letter 
law that alternate holdings are not dicta, and my written 
testimony cites numerous cases, including Supreme Court cases 
on this.
    If Congress can recognize ratification outside of 
proposal's specified deadline, then think about it: Congress 
will have a vast new power that is not contemplated under 
Article V or any other part of the Constitution. Congress could 
specify one mode of proposal in the actual proposal that it 
submits to the States, and then years or even centuries later, 
it could alter the mode of proposal by a simple majoritarian 
resolution. The constitutional amendment process would no 
longer be fixed and stable, but it would be a chaotic ever-
moving target.
    This wouldn't be fair to the States, and it would 
effectively gut Article V's supermajoritarian process. So I 
would urge opposition to Senate Resolution 4 or any similar 
proposal. Thank you.
    [The prepared statement of Professor Foley appears as a 
submission for the record.]
    Chair Durbin. Thank you, Professor Foley. Ms. Sullivan.

   STATEMENT OF KATHLEEN M. SULLIVAN, SENIOR COUNSEL, QUINN 
   EMANUEL URQUHART & SULLIVAN, LLP, LOS ANGELES, CALIFORNIA

    Ms. Sullivan. Thank you so much, Chairman Durbin, Ranking 
Member Graham, and distinguished Members of the Committee. It's 
a privilege to be before this Committee, which I first had as a 
privilege 37 years ago, which is a sobering thing to think 
about.
    I am delighted to have this opportunity to speak in support 
of Senate Joint Resolution 4 from the perspective of a 
constitutional scholar. And I'd like to respectfully disagree 
with my learned colleague, Professor Foley, on several points, 
but I'd like to really focus on three points today.
    First, I want to echo the points made so eloquently in the 
opening panel by Senators Cardin and Murkowski that this ERA is 
very much a bipartisan enterprise. And it has been since its 
inception 100 years ago. It was authored by Republican as well 
as Democratic authors. It was proposed in a bipartisan fashion, 
and it was ratified in bipartisan fashion. It was great 
Republican Congresswomen who reached across the aisle to 
Democratic Congresswomen to propose the ERA in 1972. And it's 
been bipartisan right through the ratifications by Illinois, 
Nevada, and Virginia.
    Second point, I would like to echo the Chairman's eloquent 
words about why the ERA is not redundant of existing equal 
protection jurisprudence as announced by the Court. It's not 
redundant. It's true, we've had--as all of my colleagues have 
said, we've had advances for women, very important advances, 
over the last 50 years. But they're not guaranteed in the 
Constitution. And under the current Supreme Court's approach to 
interpreting the Fourteenth Amendment and the other Civil War 
amendments, they look to history. And I can tell you that the 
history of the framing of the Fourteenth Amendment was not 
surrounded by the view that women were the equal of men.
    And don't take it from me. You can take it from the Supreme 
Court, which upheld in Bradwell against Illinois in 1872, a few 
short years after the Fourteenth Amendment; the power of 
Illinois to exclude women from the practice of law or the 
Supreme Court, in Minor v. Happersett, an 1874 decision in 
which the Supreme Court held women did not have an equal right 
to vote with men under either the Equal Protection or the 
Privileges or Immunities Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment.
    So if we look to 1868 to see what the Equal Protection 
Clause means, we're not going to find that it protected the 
equality of women to men. That's why the ERA is not redundant. 
That's why it should be enacted now. That's why it should be 
affirmed now.
    It's my belief that under Article V, Congress proposed that 
38 States ratified it. It is the law now, and the only thing 
standing in the way is the congressional deadline, which 
Congress set in 1972, altered in 1978, and has the power to 
change today.
    And that's what I want to end on my third point, and the 
most important point for today is to absolutely affirm, from a 
perspective of a constitutional scholar who's looked at Article 
V, that this body has the power to remove the deadline that was 
set in 1972 and extended in 1978.
    Now, why does the Congress have constitutional authority to 
eliminate the deadline? Well, to begin with, there's already a 
body of precedent in this body. This body decided it had the 
power to extend the deadline in 1978 and did so on the advice 
of the executive branch and Office of Legal Counsel memo at the 
time.
    But the most important reason why you have this power, and 
here I want to respectfully disagree with my friend, Professor 
Foley, is the prior deadline was in the preamble and not in the 
text.
    Now, over time, Congress has had a different approach to 
where it put these deadlines. It put a deadline in the text of 
the Eighteenth Amendment, the Prohibition Amendment, and it 
said it shall be inoperative unless adopted. And when it went 
out to the States for ratification, the States voted on that 
language. That was an expiration date.
    What this body said in 1972 for the ERA could not have been 
more different. It just said it shall be the Amendment, a part 
of the Constitution when ratified by the legislatures of three-
fourths of the States within 7 years. That was advisory. It was 
hortatory. It was something that expressed the wish of the body 
then, but it can be changed.
    Now, here's the key point: When the Framers wanted to put 
time limits in the Constitution, they knew how to do it--6 
years for a term of office; 2 years for a term of office; 4 
years for a Presidential term of office; the Pocket Veto 
Clause, Article I, Section 7, ``If any Bill shall not be 
returned by the President within ten Days . . . after it shall 
have been presented to him, the Same shall be a Law.'' There is 
no time limit in Article V.
    And when this body adopted the time limit in the preamble 
by joint resolution and majority vote, it set the precedent for 
this body now today to decide by joint resolution through 
majority vote to change the deadline, to remove the deadline.
    And that is why Senate Joint Resolution Number 4 is proper, 
it's constitutional, it's within this body's power, and it will 
make clear and undisputable that the Equal Rights Amendment is 
now the Twenty-Eighth Amendment to the Constitution. Thank you.
    [The prepared statement of Ms. Sullivan appears as a 
submission for the record.]
    Chair Durbin. Thank you, Ms. Sullivan. We now will turn to 
questions, and each Member has 5 minutes.
    I'm going to try to ask two questions to clarify I think 
two important issues, and I'm going to start with you, Ms. 
Sullivan. And I want to go to this preamble question.
    Professor Foley noted Article V in her presentation to the 
Committee--I looked at Article V--there is no mention of the 
word ``preamble'' in Article V. I looked, of course, to the 
preamble to the Constitution, and as memorable as the words may 
be, I don't believe that they have driven decisions of the 
Court at any stage. The body of the Constitution does, over and 
over again. I can't recall. Maybe I'm just not aware of it.
    But the preamble has been a driving force to establish or 
to question a person's rights. And, of course, this 
Constitution in Article VII spells out exactly what 
ratification of the Constitution entails. And again, we have an 
important paragraph which does not include the word preamble at 
any stage.
    So my question to you initially is the argument that this 
is in a preamble and should be treated differently than other 
places you've stated already, but what is your comment on the 
preamble to the Constitution and the fact that it has not been 
a driving force?
    Ms. Sullivan. Preambles can have eloquent power. The 
preamble to the Constitution is perhaps the greatest preamble 
ever written. But preambles do not drive the interpretation of 
Article V joint resolutions, and they never did. And no court 
has ever declared it. And crucially, I want to focus on Dillon 
v. Gloss, which Senator Graham mentioned earlier, a 1921 
decision that, of course, did hold that the Eighteenth 
Amendment was not unconstitutional by virtue of the 7-year 
expiration date that was baked into it and ratified by the 
States. That crucially was not a preamble. It was the 
language--the 7-year deadline was an expiration date in the 
text.
    Now, why does that matter? It matters because the States 
vote on the text of the Amendment. When they ratify, the States 
are not ratifying the preamble. They are ratifying the text. So 
it's one thing to bake the deadline into the constitutional 
text and have the States vote on it, that might be binding, but 
a preamble is just advisory. It's your dialogue with the States 
saying, ``Get this done in 7 years, but maybe we'll revisit 
it.''
    And, if anything, the language of Coleman v. Miller, the 
1939 case, is supportive of the view that the Congress does 
have the power now to say we think the ERA is still vital, and 
we think we should remove the prior deadline.
    One Congress can't entrench itself into the future by 
binding a future Congress. One Congress can't prevent the 
States from exercising their ratification role by setting a 
binding deadline on the States enforceable by a court.
    So, just to--there's no constitutional decision by the 
Supreme Court standing in your way. Dillon v. Gloss is an 
apposite, because it was about a deadline in the text and not 
the preamble. And Coleman v. Miller is supportive of this 
Congress' role in deciding that the ERA still has a vital role 
to play today.
    Chair Durbin. So let me go to the second question that was 
raised by Professor Foley as well as by Senator Graham. Since 
Congress sent the resolution proposing inclusion of the ERA in 
the Constitution to the States in March of 1972, as we know, 38 
States have ratified the Amendment.
    However, five of those States have subsequently sought to 
rescind their ratification: Nebraska, 1973; Tennessee, 1974; 
Idaho, 1977; Kentucky, 1978; and South Dakota in 1979. North 
Dakota also recently voted to rescind its ratification in 2021.
    What is the legal significance, Ms. Sullivan, of these 
State legislatures voting to rescind their ratifications?
    Ms. Sullivan. It has no--a State rescission has no force 
under the text of Article V, which speaks of ratification and 
not of rescission. Number two, when two States tried to 
withdraw or rescind their ratification of the Fourteenth 
Amendment after it was proposed and adopted, this body rejected 
that. So there's precedent in this body for rejecting efforts 
to rescind. And to the extent this body has the power I 
described before, this body has the power to affirm that those 
rescissions are ineffective now just as they were for the 
Fourteenth Amendment. We wouldn't have had the Fourteenth 
Amendment today if we'd listened to rescissions.
    Chair Durbin. Thank you very much. Senator Graham.
    Senator Graham. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Give me a little 
bit of latitude, if you don't mind. There's sort of some 
breaking news here. Apparently, the D.C. Circuit Court of 
Appeals just affirmed the holding, I think--it's Virginia v. 
Ferriero. Is that the name of it?
    Professor Foley. Yes, that's the name of it.
    Ms. Braceras. Illinois now.
    Senator Graham. Let me--give me a second to set the stage, 
Mr. Chairman, if you don't mind. So you had two States, 
basically, sue in district court, who ratified the ERA after 
the time period in question, compelling the National Archivist 
to enroll it in the Constitution. Is that generally what they 
were suing about, Ms. Foley?
    Professor Foley. Well, I don't know. I haven't read the 
opinion yet since----
    Senator Graham. No, Illinois and Nevada brought a lawsuit--
--
    Professor Foley. Yes.
    Senator Graham [continuing]. In the district court----
    Professor Foley. Correct.
    Senator Graham [continuing]. Saying their ratification 
after 1982----
    Professor Foley. Was valid.
    Senator Graham [continuing]. Should count and get you to 
38, and the district court said no. Is that correct?
    Professor Foley. That's correct. They sought a writ of 
mandamus to force the U.S. Archivist to publish.
    Senator Graham. So the district court upheld the idea that 
we, the Congress, could set deadlines, which we did in this 
case.
    Professor Foley. Correct, citing Dillon.
    Senator Graham. Okay. So today, the D.C.'s Court of Appeals 
rejected the mandamus request and upheld the lower court. So 
that's where we're at, like, 11 or whatever time it is.
    The point I'm trying to make is that the reason we're not 
starting over and we're trying to turn the Constitution, in my 
opinion, upside down is because if you started this process 
today, you wouldn't come anywhere near two-thirds of the House 
and Senate to ratify this Amendment. And y'all all know that. 
Times have changed. Women's rights have been acknowledged. And 
why it would be so soundly rejected, this Amendment would lead 
to chaos.
    This Amendment would really punish women who are trying to 
play sports fairly. This Amendment would give the Court the 
ability to strike down every pro-life measure passed by the 
States. And if you don't believe me, this is what NARAL said--
sent out a national alert: The ERA--what we're debating here 
today--would ``reinforce the constitutional right to 
abortion.'' It would ``require judges to strike down anti-
abortion laws.'' Ms. Braceras, do you agree with their 
position?
    Ms. Braceras. Yes, I do.
    Senator Graham. Ms. Sullivan, do you agree with their 
position?
    Ms. Sullivan. I'm sorry.
    Senator Graham. That NARAL is saying if the ERA were 
passed, become a constitutional amendment, it would allow 
courts to strike down all restrictions on abortion that exists 
in the States today based on the ERA. Do you agree with that?
    Ms. Sullivan. Senator, I respectfully do not agree with 
that.
    Senator Graham. So you disagree with NARAL?
    Ms. Sullivan. I do, but on that point, on that prediction.
    Senator Graham. Okay. So----
    Ms. Sullivan [continuing]. I think that there would be a 
case-by-case determination that would balance the right to 
women's equality against other rights, which is how we practice 
constitutional law every day, Senator.
    Senator Graham. The ACLU wrote the House in March of 2021: 
``The Equal Rights Amendment could provide an additional layer 
of protection against restrictions on abortion. It could be a 
tool against further erosion of reproductive rights.'' Do you 
agree with that, Ms. Braceras?
    Ms. Braceras. I certainly do. I mean, certainly, that's 
what the proponents of the ERA want to----
    Senator Graham. Okay, so let's just be honest. The people 
who are pushing politically to pass this are hanging their head 
on if it became law, every pro-life measure in this country 
would fall. You didn't say that in 1982. So if there is a law 
in a State, pick a State, that says a biological male cannot 
compete against females, would that law be subject to being 
struck down if the ERA is passed, Ms. Braceras?
    Ms. Braceras. Yes, it would. In fact, I would add that in 
my home State of Massachusetts where we have a State Equal 
Rights Amendment, schools are required to allow boys to compete 
in women's sports. And as a result, my daughter, who is now a 
Division I field hockey player in her senior year of high 
school--her team competed against at least three teams that had 
more than three men on them, as is their constitutional right 
in Massachusetts.
    Senator Graham. So if gender identity becomes the new 
standard on----
    Ms. Braceras. Oh, and this isn't gender identity. These 
were not trans-identified----
    Senator Graham. Right.
    Ms. Braceras [continuing]. Individuals. These were boys who 
identify as boys and were very good athletes in hockey and 
lacrosse and thought, wouldn't it be fun--or funny to go out 
and play field hockey against a bunch of girls, some of whom 
were future Division I athletes----
    Senator Graham. So I'll just wrap----
    Ms. Braceras [continuing]. And take their spots on varsity 
teams.
    Senator Graham. Yes. I'll just wrap this up, Mr. Chairman. 
The reason it wouldn't get two-thirds votes, most Americans 
don't like the outcome we're talking about here. Most Americans 
would be really upset to have a constitutional amendment that 
would do the things we're talking about--mandate abortion on 
demand up to the moment of birth. That's what it would do. And 
the people pushing it, that's what they want.
    And if you can't pull this rabbit-out-of-a-hat 
constitutional exercise and count the States, not count the 
ones that rescinded, count the ones that did after the time 
period, and you had to start over as Justice Ginsburg 
indicated, you would fail miserably because the times in which 
we live have changed.
    You wouldn't get anywhere near two-thirds vote in the 
Senate or the House because most Members of Congress, and I 
think a majority of Senators, do not want a constitutional 
amendment that requires abortion on demand up to the moment of 
birth.
    I think most Members----
    [Disturbance occurs in the hearing room.]
    Senator Graham [continuing]. Of the House and most Members 
of the Senate----
    [Disturbance continues in the hearing room.]
    Senator Graham [continuing]. Most Members of the House and 
most Members of the Senate would be offended by a law----
    [Disturbance continues in the hearing room.]
    Senator Graham [continuing]. A constitutional amendment, 
mandating that biological males can take over girls' sports. 
That's why you would fail so miserably.
    [Disturbance continues in the hearing room.]
    Senator Graham. Thank you. Have a good day.
    [Disturbance continues in the hearing room.]
    Senator Graham. Goodbye.
    Chair Durbin. So, if the Senator from South Carolina--bear 
with me here. I see this opinion that you've referenced in your 
statement. And as I understand it, the circuit court was 
affirming what the district court had decided, that the court 
itself was not going to overturn this decision, which puts the 
ball right smack dab back in Congress' court.
    Senator Graham. Yes, sir. That's right. And the point is 
that the courts have upheld the position of the district judge. 
And what I am saying, no, it doesn't put it back. The law of 
the land is that 7 years plus 3 years is the limit. And we're 
not buying into what you're selling here. No, we don't agree 
with that.
    Chair Durbin. And so, let me tell you the sequence of 
Members who will be called on based on the early bird rule. 
First, Senator Whitehouse, then Senator Grassley, Klobuchar, 
then Senator Lee, and the list goes on from there. So let's 
start with Senator Whitehouse.
    Senator Whitehouse. Thanks, Chairman. It's always 
interesting to me to figure out who's here in the room. So if 
you don't mind, Ms. Braceras, I'd like to ask you a few 
questions about the Independent Women's Law Center.
    Ms. Braceras. Sure.
    Senator Whitehouse. What is its relationship with the 
Independent Women's Forum and the Independent Women's Voice 
organizations?
    Ms. Braceras. We are the legal advocacy arm of the 
Independent Women's Forum and Independent Women's Voice.
    Senator Whitehouse. So they share support for the 
organization that you are here representing, together?
    Ms. Braceras. Correct. We're a part of Independent Women's 
Forum.
    Senator Whitehouse. I'm sorry. You're a part of Independent 
Women's Forum or you're a part of Independent Women's Voice?
    Ms. Braceras. We're a part of, well, both.
    Senator Whitehouse. Okay. Got it. What else do Independent 
Women's Forum and Independent Women's Voice share? Do they 
share officers?
    Ms. Braceras. I'd be happy to respond to those questions in 
writing. I don't really have the corporate structure in front 
of me right now.
    Senator Whitehouse. You don't know if they share officers 
or not?
    Ms. Braceras. We have overlapping employees, some, not all.
    Senator Whitehouse. Okay. So you share staff--some staff. 
Correct?
    Ms. Braceras. Correct.
    Senator Whitehouse. You're not sure whether you share 
officers or not, but you'll get that to me in writing. Correct?
    Ms. Braceras. If you'd like.
    Senator Whitehouse. I would like. Do you share donors?
    Ms. Braceras. I have no idea. I'm an employee. I'm not a 
part of the fundraising arm.
    Senator Whitehouse. Okay. Could we add that to the 
questions you'll get back to me in writing on, whether you 
share--the organizations share donors?
    Ms. Braceras. Sure. I'm quite sure they don't share 
donations. Individuals may donate to either Independent Women's 
Voice, Independent Women's Forum, or both. But no, they don't 
share the donations.
    Senator Whitehouse. But they may have the same donors. 
Correct?
    Ms. Braceras. It's possible.
    Senator Whitehouse. That's what you'll let me know. 
Correct?
    Ms. Braceras. Sure.
    Senator Whitehouse. And office space, do they share office 
space?
    Ms. Braceras. We're a virtual office. We have been since 
long before COVID, actually. Our staff almost is entirely of 
women. And for a variety of reasons, our organizations made the 
decision long ago to allow our staff to work from home.
    Senator Whitehouse. What distinctions would we find between 
the office arrangements for Independent Women's Voice and 
Independent Women's Forum?
    Ms. Braceras. Well, as I said, we're both virtual 
companies.
    Senator Whitehouse. So there's no difference between the 
office----
    Ms. Braceras. There is no office----
    Senator Whitehouse [continuing]. For either of them?
    Ms. Braceras [continuing]. There is no office for either of 
them.
    Senator Whitehouse. There's no physical office.
    Ms. Braceras. There's no physical office.
    Senator Whitehouse. You get together, you have meetings, 
you do Zooms, you do phone calls, all of that sort of thing 
that offices do. Correct?
    Ms. Braceras. Correct.
    Senator Whitehouse. And when you do that, is there a 
distinction between whether it's being done by Independent 
Women's Voice or Independent Women's Forum?
    Ms. Braceras. Yes, depending on the meeting. I mean, if IWF 
policy staff calls a meeting, then it's a meeting of the IWF 
policy staff.
    Senator Whitehouse. Okay. The history of your organization, 
as I understand it, is that Independent Women's Forum was led 
from 2000 to 2005 by Koch Industries' lobbyist Nancy 
Pfotenhauer. I don't know if I pronounced that name right, but 
is that true?
    Ms. Braceras. Nancy Pfotenhauer was president of IWF for a 
time period. I don't have the exact dates in front of me.
    Senator Whitehouse. And as I understand it, in 2003, she 
was also president of Americans for Prosperity, which is the 
Koch organization's primary political battleship, I would call 
it, entity.
    Ms. Braceras. I have no idea, Senator. And I'm pleased that 
you're so interested in the work of IWF. I hope that you'll ask 
the other panelists here today, and other panelists that come 
before you on other----
    Senator Whitehouse. Well, there are more mysteries around--
--
    Ms. Braceras [continuing]. Similar questions.
    Senator Whitehouse [continuing]. I think there are more 
mysteries around yours than the others. So if you don't mind, 
I'll focus on that.
    Ms. Braceras. Oh there's no mystery about IWF.
    Senator Whitehouse. It originated as Women for Judge 
Thomas. Correct?
    Ms. Braceras. Yes, it did, founded by Ricky Silberman, who 
had been vice chair of the EEOC with Justice Thomas.
    Senator Whitehouse. And the Koch Industries' lobbyist ran 
both those organizations at the same time that she ran 
Americans for Prosperity for those years.
    Ms. Braceras. I have no idea what you're talking about----
    Senator Whitehouse. Okay.
    Ms. Braceras [continuing]. A Koch Industry lobbyist. I 
think you're--I have no knowledge of that.
    Senator Whitehouse. All right. You do take positions on 
judicial nominees. Do you not?
    Ms. Braceras. We do.
    Senator Whitehouse. Have you ever taken a position in favor 
of an appointee of a Democratic President?
    Ms. Braceras. Have I personally, or has the organization?
    Senator Whitehouse. Either organization or yourself, all 
three.
    Ms. Braceras. I'm sure that I have.
    Senator Whitehouse. Okay, let's put that aside then and 
look at the two organizations since that's where my question 
was going. Have they----
    Ms. Braceras. Well, the organizations--to be honest with 
you, the organizations have for the most part only weighed in 
on Supreme Court nominations. I think there were a----
    Senator Whitehouse. Have you ever supported a Democratic 
nominee--has either organization ever supported a Democratic 
nominee to the Supreme Court?
    Ms. Braceras. Not in my knowledge, no.
    Senator Whitehouse. Has the----
    Ms. Braceras [continuing]. We support nominees who support 
an originalist interpretation of the Constitution.
    Senator Whitehouse. Had the International--this will be my 
last question. Did the International--sorry--the Independent 
Women's Forum call the testimony here to this Committee by Dr. 
Christine Blasey Ford a publicity stunt?
    Ms. Braceras. Did the Independent Women's Forum say that?
    Senator Whitehouse. Yes.
    Ms. Braceras. I don't recall.
    Senator Whitehouse. Okay. My time's up.
    Chair Durbin. Senator Grassley.
    Senator Grassley. Ms. Braceras, Justice Ginsburg quote 
about the Equal Rights Amendment falling three States short of 
ramification has already been referred to, and she said it 
should start all over again. Given how rare it is for our 
history to amend the Constitution, do you agree with Justice 
Ginsburg that the amendment process should start over to ensure 
constitutionality and the confidence of the American people?
    Ms. Braceras. I do, and particularly because the 
circumstances have changed so much that the Amendment that is 
currently before you today is effectively a different amendment 
than the one that the States voted to approve--the 35 States 
voted to approve in the early 1970s. I would also argue that 62 
percent of the American voters, at least 62 percent, were not 
of voting age or were not yet born at the time that the States 
first considered this Amendment. The majority of American 
voters today are women. And today's women and their elected 
representatives in the States should have an opportunity to 
weigh in on whether or not this is necessary in 2023.
    Senator Grassley. Also, the Department of Justice issued an 
opinion that the Equal Rights Amendment has expired--expired 
was their word--and it is constitutionally required that the 
process start again. So can you talk about why this is the case 
and what effects it would have on the Amendment to continue as 
it stands? And I think you already spoke to that point a little 
bit, but if you want to expand on it, feel free to do that.
    Ms. Braceras. Yes, sir. When the Amendment fails to garner 
38 States in the time allotted by Congress, the Amendment died. 
And there's nothing to--there's effectively--you're talking 
about lifting a deadline on something that no longer exists. It 
died when it expired in 1979, I would argue. Some people argue 
it expired in 1982, but regardless, it is dead now and 
therefore cannot be resurrected from the dead.
    Senator Grassley. Yes. Professor Foley, the Supreme Court 
held that Congress could fix a reasonable time for ratification 
about an amendment. Congress fixed the time for this 
constitutional amendment, and, of course, this expired. Are you 
aware of any constitutional amendments that were ratified after 
the deadline for ratification of the amendment?
    Professor Foley. No, this is the only one.
    Senator Grassley. Also, do you explain to us whether 
Congress has the constitutional authority to pass a proposed 
amendment without a ratification deadline and then years later 
impose a ratification deadline before the threshold for State 
ratification has been satisfied?
    Professor Foley. No. As I said in my testimony, you know, 
the only power Congress has is under Article V, and that is to 
make a proposal that is submitted to the States. Once that 
proposal is submitted to the States, your job is done and 
you're locked in, and you can't change it by simple 
majoritarian resolutions in the future.
    So, for example, your mode of ratification that you choose 
can include not only a ratification deadline should you choose 
to impose one, but it can also include, and does generally 
include, the mode of ratification that's expressly mentioned in 
Article V, which is specifying whether the ratification should 
occur via State legislatures versus State conventions. And once 
you pick State conventions or State legislatures, you're also 
locked in just like you're locked in on the deadline. So 
whatever mode of ratification you pick is fixed.
    Senator Grassley. Yes. And my last question will be to you 
also, Professor Foley. What are the legal risks of disregarding 
the ratification deadline for this constitutional Amendment?
    Professor Foley. Well, I think the biggest problem of all 
is that if you sort of arrogate to yourself through a 
majoritarian resolution the idea that you have this sort of new 
power to change the mode of ratification, then that means the 
mode of ratification, including picking State legislatures 
versus State conventions, and any deadline is changeable at 
whim of any future Congress.
    And, you know, that's a moment of constitutional 
instability. It's deeply unfair to the States who always 
treated your modes of ratification as fixed and binding on 
them, and it basically guts the super majoritarian process of 
Article V. So I think it's a very dangerous precedent to set.
    Senator Grassley. Thank you.
    Chair Durbin. Thank you, Senator Grassley. And next is 
Senator Klobuchar.
    Senator Klobuchar. Well, thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. 
I have long supported the Equal Rights Amendment--I guess long 
is the right adjective to use here--and I've really appreciated 
all the testimony, especially Senator Murkowski's willingness 
to talk about the importance of bipartisan support for this. 
And I'd start with you, Lieutenant Governor Stratton. Could you 
talk about Illinois where just in 2018, Illinois ratified the 
ERA with bipartisan support, including from the House 
Republican leader, nine other Republicans, and how the ERA 
gathered that kind of bipartisan support in Illinois and still, 
in fact, has it nationally?
    Lieutenant Governor Stratton. Yes. Thank you so much, 
Senator, for that question. In 2018, as I served in the 
Illinois House, I was proud to not only vote for the 
ratification of the Equal Rights Amendment in Illinois but to 
do so alongside of my colleagues on both sides of the aisle. It 
was a bipartisan vote. And I think that one of the things that 
was so influential in that debate on the House floor was to 
talk about the implications not just for women today, but for 
women and girls of the next generation and the generations to 
come.
    I think I heard a statement in one of the previous speakers 
talking about what would happen if we needed to wait for every 
vote--wait until we had the next generation to be alive and 
able to make a vote. Well, certainly that is not something that 
I would have wanted as it relates to the Fourteenth Amendment 
as a Black woman, for someone to say, well, let's just wait 
until the next generation is alive and can vote.
    I'm grateful that there are votes that can be taken and 
amendments that can be made to our Constitution that enshrine 
rights, that demonstrate that we should be able to live free 
from discrimination----
    Senator Klobuchar. Thank you.
    Lieutenant Governor Stratton [continuing]. Right now in 
Illinois.
    Senator Klobuchar. Thank you. Okay, thanks. I just have a 
few more questions. We have our little 5 minutes here, so I 
guess I will go to you, Professor Sullivan.
    Last year, I joined Senators Blumenthal and Cortez Masto, 
as well as former Representative Maloney, who's here today, 
returned--thank you for being here--and Speier--in urging the 
Justice Department to withdraw an opinion issued under the 
previous administration seeking to stand in the way of the ERA 
being added to the Constitution.
    The Justice Department said that the prior opinion did not 
prevent the Congress, in fact, from taking action related to 
the ratification of the ERA. Quickly, do you agree with the 
Justice Department that there's nothing stopping Congress from 
taking action regarding the ERA?
    Ms. Sullivan. Yes.
    Senator Klobuchar. Okay. Well, that is nice and succinct. 
Thank you. The other question I wanted to ask you was that, 
given the Supreme Court's willingness to roll back fundamental 
rights, do you agree that it is more important than ever to 
enshrine formal protections in our Constitution guaranteeing 
women's equality?
    Ms. Sullivan. Yes, absolutely.
    Senator Klobuchar. Okay. And I think that's very important 
for people to know the moment that we are in time. While this 
has been going on, as I described it early on, for a long, long 
time, and women have been fighting for their rights, and it has 
been, in fact, ratified in so many States, it is all the more 
relevant today.
    I guess I would end with you, Ms. Williams. I know in high 
school you performed on Broadway in ``What the Constitution 
Means to Me.'' I actually got to personally see the play when 
it came to Minneapolis, and it was an amazing experience, and I 
know different high schoolers have performed as part of that 
play for many years.
    I want to give you the opportunity to tell the Committee 
what a guarantee of equality in the Constitution would mean to 
you.
    Ms. Williams. Yes. So, as I've previously mentioned in my 
testimony, in May, I will be starting a position as a 
litigation paralegal at one of the most prestigious firms. And 
I think when thinking about the experience of women, especially 
Black women, in this country, it is important for us to have 
tools to fight against discrimination, to have tools that will 
help us gain the equality we deserve.
    As I've said, women in this country are not offered as much 
as men. I will have to work as hard as my male colleagues. I 
may not receive the same respect as my male colleagues, and I 
will have limited recourse to fight against that, and I deserve 
that.
    As a Black woman, I experience this world very differently 
from each and every person on this Committee. And it is 
important that my perspective and my experience is in this 
Constitution, is in this document. So this is why we need the 
ERA.
    Senator Klobuchar. Very good. Thank you.
    Chair Durbin. Thanks, Senator Klobuchar. Senator Lee.
    Senator Lee. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman, and thanks 
to all of you for being here. It's important to remember that 
when Congress proposed this Amendment in 1972, it didn't happen 
in a vacuum. When Congress went to propose it, it didn't have 
the votes that it needed. It added the 7-year limitation in 
order to secure the consensus necessary to achieve a two-thirds 
supermajority vote in both Houses.
    In other words, there were Members of Congress needed to 
vote for it who weren't willing to vote for it without that 
provision. So that's how they achieved the bargain. And we 
can't just ignore that. That shouldn't be ignored. You can't 
ignore it without doing violence to the process articulated in 
Article V of the Constitution for how to amend it. It's 
important anytime we amend the Constitution to make sure that 
we understand what the language means.
    We've seen through other amendments--one of many examples 
would be the Fourteenth Amendment. You can't always anticipate 
at the outset, when you adopt something like this, what 
ramifications it might have. And that's one of the many reasons 
it's important to get this right.
    All sorts of things have changed since 1972, and that's yet 
another prudential reason why it makes sense to put limitations 
in there. But to be very clear, there is a remedy for what 
you're talking about.
    When something expires, it's not like it can't ever be 
brought up again. It's just that it becomes a different 
proposal. That proposal has a shelf life. That shelf life has 
now passed. It has expired. Congress could propose another 
Equal Rights Amendment. It has yet to do so, and that matters. 
It matters in a way that's been recognized by the courts. The 
U.S. District Court for the District of Columbia ruled against 
the position that this can be extended. And the U.S. Court of 
Appeals for the D.C. Circuit today affirmed that ruling.
    So, this argument has lost at the district court. It has 
lost at the court of appeals. If it were to come before the 
United States Supreme Court, it will lose there, too. And so, 
that really is a significant thing.
    There are some policy considerations that also need to be 
taken into account. In the 1970s, my dad wrote a book. It was 
called ``The Lawyer Looks at the Equal Rights Amendment.'' And 
he asked a number of questions about the legislation. And one 
of the questions he asked, that he identified as the most 
important question, relates to what standard of review would be 
applied if the Equal Rights Amendment were to become law of the 
land. He asked, for example, is it going to be rational basis? 
Is it going to be strict scrutiny? Is it going to be 
intermediate scrutiny? Or what's it going to be? Or is it going 
to be a complete prohibition or a complete prohibition with 
qualifications?
    Ms. Braceras, does the text of the 1972 ERA make clear what 
standard of review courts would apply?
    Ms. Braceras. It does not, but the advocates of the ERA 
hope and will argue that it requires strict scrutiny.
    Senator Lee. Okay. And under strict scrutiny, if it were to 
apply, how would that be different? Because, currently, 
something like this where there is a Government-imposed 
distinction, a differentiation on the basis of sex, it is not 
strict scrutiny that applies. It's a form of intermediate 
scrutiny. Tell us why that matters. Why do you think that 
matters? What's the difference between switching from 
intermediate scrutiny to strict scrutiny?
    Ms. Braceras. So, strict scrutiny is the standard that 
courts use to analyze policies that deal with race, and it's 
the right standard to use with race because in the racial 
context, separate is unequal.
    That is not true in the context of sex. Separate is not 
always unequal for women and men when it comes to issues of 
privacy or places where biological differences matter, such as 
sports. And so, sex should not be treated the same as race 
under the Constitution. Our current intermediate scrutiny 
standard leaves space for courts to take into consideration 
biological differences where they matter. And in all other 
cases----
    Senator Lee. And strict scrutiny doesn't accommodate that 
in the same way.
    Ms. Braceras. No, it does not.
    Senator Lee. So what might this do for sex-segregated 
prisons, prisons for women? What might this do for Government-
sponsored, Government-funded and operated shelters for abused 
women, for example, or public restrooms, locker rooms, athletic 
facilities, athletic competitions? What might strict scrutiny 
do to every one of those?
    Ms. Braceras. So, in the racial context, courts have been 
very clear that prisons cannot separate inmates on the basis of 
race, even where doing so would prevent certain gang violence 
in the prison, and that's the right standard. They should not 
be able to separate inmates on the basis of race.
    If you applied that same standard to men and women, that 
would mean that prisons could never--they would have to have 
coed prisons. You could never separate inmates on the basis of 
sex, and male and female prisoners would have to be housed 
together.
    Senator Lee. So protections in law, State, and Federal as 
they now exist, protections put in place for women reflecting 
biological differences between men and women--based on 
differences between men and women, would be at stake. They 
would be jeopardized. They would be threatened, and, in many 
cases, undone through judicial order.
    Ms. Braceras. That's correct.
    Senator Lee. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    Chair Durbin. Thank you, Senator Lee. Senator Blumenthal.
    Senator Blumenthal. Thanks, Mr. Chairman. Thank you for 
having this hearing. Thank you all of our witnesses, all of our 
audience for being here today, everybody who's watching. This 
issue is supremely important.
    Ms. Williams, I'm really proud that you're here today----
    Ms. Williams. Thank you.
    Senator Blumenthal [continuing]. And that you go to school 
at Trinity in my home State of Connecticut. I hope one day 
maybe it'll be your home State, too, and maybe you'll be 
sitting up here----
    Ms. Williams. Thank you.
    Senator Blumenthal [continuing]. In the chair that I have.
    I'm really proud of your testimony. You know, there are not 
too many people in this country who can say, quote, ``I fell in 
love with United States Constitution in high school.'' But 
thank you for your commitment to our Constitution and for your 
understanding about the brilliance of that Constitution. And 
you say it in your testimony, ``Our Founding Fathers''--I'm 
quoting--``Our Founding Fathers were visionaries. They 
understood that we needed a document that could endure 
throughout generations.''
    Ms. Williams. That's right.
    Senator Blumenthal. The fact is, generations have fought 
for the ERA. I've been proud to support the ERA for a long 
time. And now your generation is fighting for it. And whether 
it occurs in this Congress or not, I believe that your 
generation will finally accomplish the ERA if we don't. And I 
want to ask you what you would tell others in your generation 
about the importance of the ERA to them in their daily lives.
    Ms. Williams. So, as I've been sitting here listening to 
the testimonies and the questions, there are a lot of concerns 
about men performing in women's sports. And I am here as a 
young woman of color who is in her senior year of college. 
We're not worried about that. I am not worried about that. It's 
the truth. We're not.
    We have way more important issues that we need to be 
focusing on. And I will tell every young person, and I've been 
telling as many as I can, this is important for us. The ERA 
protects everyone, me, Black women, white women, white men. So 
it's important to all of us, and it's important now. It was 
important before and it will be important in the future.
    Senator Blumenthal. Now, you happen to be going to a school 
in Connecticut, which ratified----
    Ms. Williams. Yes.
    Senator Blumenthal [continuing]. The ERA overwhelmingly, 
and in 1974, in fact, adopted its own constitutional amendment 
by 77 percent--the equivalent of the ERA in our State. Is it 
good enough that Connecticut has done it? You live in 
Connecticut.
    Ms. Williams. So, it's not good enough. I actually just 
want to say that, as a young person, I've been concerned about 
the most recent activity of our Supreme Court, the fact that a 
lot of our rights are continuing to be rolled back, and I am 
now actually seeing the importance of having this Amendment 
because of that.
    So having a law in Connecticut is not enough. We need this 
Amendment. We need it so when things are being rolled back, we 
can use it to continue to fight against.
    Senator Blumenthal. And in the future, are you going to 
continue to work for the ERA?
    Ms. Williams. Absolutely, absolutely. I joined the ERA when 
I was I think 18, and I am now about to be 22. And I am even 
more determined than I've been before. I am even more for it 
now than ever.
    Senator Blumenthal. Thank you. Thanks, Mr. Chairman.
    Chair Durbin. Thank you. Senator Hirono.
    Senator Hirono. Mr. Chairman, you know, I'd like to say 
that, you know, yes, the times have changed, the times in which 
we live, where, sadly, violence--gun violence is rampant, where 
we see a rise in hate crimes against Asian Americans, Jews, 
LGBTQ persons, when FBI Director Wray says that domestic 
terrorism and white supremacy are major concerns. So I'd say 
yes, the times have changed. And the times--when we live in the 
times when sex discrimination is deemed okay, it's not okay. 
This is why I would say we need the Equal Rights Amendment.
    Ms. Sullivan, we've been hearing some scare stories about 
how our prisons have got to be--that men and women will be put 
together, but that is not the strict scrutiny test. The strict 
scrutiny test says the law must achieve a compelling State 
interest and be minorly tailored to that interest. So it's not 
as though the floodgates open and all of these terrible things 
that--to some, terrible things--will happen. Can you talk a 
little bit more about how the Equal Rights Amendment, once in 
the Constitution, will lead to strict scrutiny?
    Ms. Sullivan. Thank you very much, Senator. And I just want 
to reiterate the points so eloquently made earlier today by 
several Senators, including the Chairman, that the Equal Rights 
Amendment is about everyone. It's about your wives, your 
daughters, your granddaughters, your mothers, your aunts, your 
cousins. It's about all women.
    It's not about--and why would you be against an Equal 
Rights Amendment, which is part of the Constitution, as 
mentioned earlier, of all the other democracies with written 
constitutions? Why would we want to be allied with nations that 
don't have equality for women, that don't let girls go to 
school with boys, that don't let women appear outside with 
their hair uncovered? Why would we want to filibuster something 
that's about fundamental equal rights for all people?
    And Senator Lee, your father was a great constitutional 
lawyer who I admired so greatly, but Senator Hirono's 
absolutely right. This amendment is not about the level of 
scrutiny. This is about a fundamental guarantee, in the 
majestic words of the Constitution, of equality. And the courts 
will work it out later in spirited debates between lawyers in 
courts about what the standard of scrutiny should be.
    And this Amendment is not saying women and men have to be 
treated the same when they're different. It's saying all people 
have to be treated equally. And there is plenty of room in the 
majestic guarantee of equality to recognize times when women 
have to get protection because only women can get pregnant, 
that women have to have rectification of past discrimination. 
All those benefits for women that Senator Hyde-Smith was 
worried would disappear, I think that's a false picture, and 
this parade of horribles is very misleading.
    All this Amendment will do is make sure we can't have a 
court roll the clock back to 1868 or 1874 under the Equal 
Protection Clause by interpreting it historically. And as 
Senator Klobuchar said, guaranteeing equality in its broad, 
vague terms that will be worked out later in specific cases.
    So, Senator, no, it is scare tactics that this body should 
ignore to suggest that anything is fixed about how the ERA will 
be interpreted. I believe it will be interpreted in ways that 
empower women and girls into the future as Ms. Williams has so 
eloquently suggested it would do, but I don't think you should 
listen to these parade of horribles you've heard today.
    Senator Hirono. I agree with you. And by the way, we've 
heard Ruth Bader Ginsburg mention a number of times, but it was 
very clear that she thought that the ERA should be part of the 
Constitution. And whatever statement she was making was in the 
context of that she thought it should be in the Constitution. 
And here is a woman who spent her entire adult life fighting 
for equal rights for everyone.
    And in spite of that, she didn't think we had gotten it 
done, and she thought that the ERA should be part of our 
Constitution. So I think that the people who are continuing to 
toss her name out as though she supports the proposition that 
we should not be supporting this resolution are really off 
base.
    Also, Ms. Sullivan, can you explain very briefly how the 
ERA, by explicitly prohibiting against sex discrimination, 
would supplant the current patchwork of Federal, State, and 
local laws that currently address sex discrimination and 
provide a bedrock of a legal protection against it, and why 
it's important?
    Ms. Sullivan. Senator, the ERA would nationalize 
protections against sex discrimination that already exist in 
many of our statutes at the Federal level and many of our State 
constitutions. That's important because of federalism. We 
believe that people have the right to move between States in 
our country, and that means that your rights won't disappear 
when you cross a State border from Senator Blumenthal's 
Connecticut to another State. So, it simply guarantees for all, 
all women nationwide, what is already recognized in a patchwork 
of other laws. That's a good thing.
    Senator Hirono. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    Senator Lee. Mr. Chairman.
    Chair Durbin. Senator Lee.
    Senator Lee. Since my name was invoked, I'd like 20 seconds 
to respond.
    Chair Durbin. Sure, 20 seconds to Senator Lee.
    Senator Lee. Professor Sullivan made the argument that we 
don't know whether this is about strict scrutiny. It's not a 
credible plausible argument to make. There is no reason to push 
for the Equal Rights Amendment unless you're trying to push it 
into strict scrutiny. That's the only difference between them. 
Strict in scrutiny, fatal in fact is the exact reason why 
distinctions in law on the basis of sex need to be evaluated 
under intermediate scrutiny.
    So if you say we don't know what standard will be used, 
that simply isn't true. And what we do know is that you'll push 
it into strict scrutiny. Strict scrutiny is not accommodating 
of the same things. It is strict in scrutiny, strict in theory, 
fatal in fact. So, this is not a theoretical argument. It is a 
virtual certainty that it will be strict scrutiny. Thanks.
    Chair Durbin. Senator was given the Senatorial 20 seconds.
    Senator Lee. Did I go over that?
    Chair Durbin. Slightly. Senator Welch.
    Senator Welch. Thank you very much. In 2019, we have this 
wonderful high school girls' soccer team, the Burlington High 
School soccer team. And they got national attention when they 
advocated and supported the U.S. Women's National Soccer Team's 
fight for equal pay. And last year, as you know, the U.S. 
Women's National Soccer Team finally won their long-running 
battle for equal pay. And all of us here, I think, agree that 
everyone's entitled to equal pay. I'm going to ask my first 
question for Thursday Williams. You went to Trinity College in 
Hartford?
    Ms. Williams. I am still there. I graduate in May.
    Senator Welch. Well, my daughter went there. So I sent her 
a picture of you, told her you were----
    [Laughter.]
    Senator Welch [continuing]. You know, a person was 
testifying here, but thank you for coming. That's fantastic. 
So, how can the ratification of the ERA help advocates win 
their fight to eliminate gender disparities in pay? And try to 
be brief so I can ask a few more questions.
    Ms. Williams. Okay. So in my testimony, I did mention that 
after graduating in May, I will be starting a litigation 
position----
    Senator Welch. Right.
    Ms. Williams [continuing]. At a very prestigious law firm. 
And I am aware that, as I've mentioned, the system is stacked 
against me. I'm aware that while right now I might be okay, in 
the future, there is a wealth disparity between a woman, 
especially a Black woman, and my male colleagues--or my male 
peer. And so, that is why this is important.
    Senator Welch. Thank you.
    Ms. Williams. Thank you.
    Senator Welch. Professor Sullivan, two things: One, just--I 
want you to comment on how recognizing the ERA strengthens 
enforcement of laws that are intended to ensure wage parity; 
and second, you might just follow up on Senator Lee's concern 
about having the Amendment push analysis into strict scrutiny 
because I'm not quite sure most of us know exactly what that 
has to do with the question of treating women equally and not 
being discriminated against on the basis of a gender.
    Ms. Sullivan. Well, thank you, Senator. To start with the 
second point, the ERA would simply make constitutional bedrock 
something we already recognize, which is women and men should 
not be treated unequally.
    Senator Welch. Mm-hmm.
    Ms. Sullivan. How that gets worked out when there are real 
differences between men and women is a question for the future. 
And this court--excuse me--the Senate need not specify to 
courts of the future how to work those questions out. I believe 
it will strengthen protections for women, all women, and it 
will not destroy any special protections women may receive now 
as it was suggested earlier.
    Senator Welch. Okay. Thank you. And for Lieutenant Governor 
Stratton, if the ERA is to be officially included in the 
Constitution, how would that impact your ability as Lieutenant 
Governor to ensure your continuing efforts for equal pay and 
for equal work?
    [Pause.]
    Senator Welch. I don't know if you heard me. Did you hear 
the question?
    Lieutenant Governor Stratton. Yes, I did. There's a little 
bit of a delay.
    Senator Welch. Okay.
    Lieutenant Governor Stratton. Thank you, Senator, for that 
question. I am proud to chair the Illinois Council on Women and 
Girls. And whether it's an issue of addressing equal pay or the 
pay gap or the wealth gap, whether it's an issue of access to 
healthcare, whether it's opportunities to help more women and 
girls enter the fields of science and math, or access quality 
healthcare, there are so many issues that would allow us with 
the foundation in our Constitution--enshrined in our 
Constitution that says that no one should be discriminated 
against on the basis of sex. It would give us that starting 
point, that grounding and baseline, to say, whatever we fight 
for, we know it's a value of our country that's enshrined in 
the Constitution, and now we can fight for rights for everyone 
to be equal.
    Senator Welch. Thank you very much. Mr. Chairman, I yield 
back.
    Chair Durbin. Thank you, Senator. Senator Cruz.
    Senator Cruz. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Welcome to each of 
the witnesses. Many judges across the country follow a 
straightforward mode of constitutional interpretation that is 
looking to the original public meaning of constitutional 
language. Original public meaning posits that the object of 
interpretation is the constitutional or statutory text as 
reasonably understood by the American people at the time of the 
provision's enactment.
    The ERA resolution was passed out of Congress in 1972, and 
it had a clear and unambiguous deadline. Every person in this 
room understands what that deadline was. And in 1972, every 
person understood it as well. In this Congress, I've 
reintroduced legislation that did not pass in the preceding 
Congress. I'm quite confident Chairman Durbin has reintroduced 
legislation in this Congress that did not pass in the previous 
Congress. Why do we have to do that? Because there's a 
deadline.
    When the previous Congress expired, legislation you 
introduced in the previous Congress is no longer before the 
Congress. Now, it's not only those of us in the room who 
understood the deadline to mean what the deadline actually 
says.
    In 1978, Congress passed a resolution extending the 
ratification deadline until 1982. If the original deadline 
wasn't valid, there would have been no need to extend it to 
1982. And even judges who don't subscribe to originalism 
acknowledged the obvious reality.
    Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg, a trailblazing advocate, said 
the following about the Equal Rights Amendment in 2019, quote, 
``The ERA fell three States short of ratification. I hope 
someday it will be put back in the political hopper, starting 
over again, collecting the necessary number of States to ratify 
it.'' Professor Foley, what was the Corwin Amendment?
    Professor Foley. Corwin Amendment was an amendment that 
would have basically prohibited Congress from, or the States 
from--well, Congress specifically--from messing with slavery.
    Senator Cruz. And are there States that have attempted to 
rescind their earlier approval of the Corwin Amendment?
    Professor Foley. Yes, several.
    Senator Cruz. So Maryland in 2014, Illinois in 2022?
    Professor Foley. Mm-hmm.
    Senator Cruz. It would seem that legislators from those 
States, Illinois in particular, want to have their cake and eat 
it, too. On one hand, they want to say in the ERA context that 
a State cannot rescind its previous ratification, but at the 
same time, they want to be able to rescind their own 
ratification and conclude that doing so is perfectly 
permissible when it concerns a different topic, when it 
concerns slavery. Are those two positions consistent?
    Professor Foley. They don't seem consistent to me.
    Senator Cruz. Professor Foley, have other constitutional 
amendments contained deadlines?
    Professor Foley. Sure. Every constitutional amendment since 
the Eighteenth Amendment has contained a deadline except for 
the Nineteenth, which is gender voting rights.
    Senator Cruz. So eight of the last nine Amendments have had 
deadlines.
    Professor Foley. Yes.
    Senator Cruz. Is there Supreme Court precedent that deals 
with Congress' ability to include a deadline when it provides 
instructions for ratification?
    Professor Foley. Yes, absolutely. Dillon v. Gloss and 
Coleman v. Miller.
    Senator Cruz. Ms. Braceras, good to see you. Welcome.
    Ms. Braceras. Nice to see you, sir.
    Senator Cruz. You and I were classmates in law school. Good 
to see you. Let me ask you, when the original version of the 
ERA was introduced, what was the state of the law concerning 
discrimination against women? And what protections are there to 
protect women against discrimination today?
    Ms. Braceras. It was very different. When the House intro--
it was introduced in the House first in 1971. And at that 
point, the Supreme Court had not yet decided Reid v. Reid, 
which is the famous case brought by the late Justice Ruth Bader 
Ginsburg, that established that the Equal Protection Clause of 
the Fourteenth Amendment prohibits government from treating 
similarly situated men and women differently. So that had not 
been decided when the ERA was first introduced. There were a 
lot of other things--laws that had not been passed to protect 
women. Pregnancy----
    Senator Cruz. So there are today vigorous protections 
against gender discrimination. And let me ask you----
    Ms. Braceras. Both constitutional and statutory.
    Senator Cruz. Since my time has expired, let me just ask 
you, what are some of the potential consequences for American 
society if the ERA were ratified now into the Constitution?
    Ms. Braceras. Well, I think one very important thing is 
that the meaning of the word sex was quite clear in 1971. 
Today, there are many people who are trying to argue that the 
word sex also includes gender identity. And so----
    Senator Cruz. Including to the Supreme Court in Bostock.
    Ms. Braceras. Right. So, if the ERA were to be passed 
today, it would open up a whole host of areas to private 
women's spaces to men who identify as women.
    Senator Cruz. Mr. Chairman, I would ask unanimous consent 
to enter into the record a letter from Concerned Women for 
America concerning this Amendment.
    Chair Durbin. Without objection.
    [The information appears as a submission for the record.]
    Senator Cruz. Thank you.
    Chair Durbin. Senator Ossoff.
    Senator Ossoff. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you to 
our panelists for your expertise, for lending your experience 
and counsel to the Committee. It was a century ago that the ERA 
was authored by Alice Paul and others. Nearly 50 years ago, my 
mother, who had just immigrated to the United States as a young 
woman, marched in support of the Equal Rights Amendment. Here 
we are a century after this was drafted, still not yet having 
made the Amendment to our Constitution that protects against 
discrimination on the basis of sex.
    I'd like to ask each of you, beginning with you, please, 
Ms. Sullivan, if you can concisely articulate for us what you 
believe the impact would be on U.S. law, on State policy, on 
the provision of services to Americans were this to be ratified 
and the Constitution thus amended.
    Ms. Sullivan. Thank you, Senator. It would guarantee that 
women cannot be treated as lesser than men, that girls cannot 
be treated as lesser than boys, that the privilege to attend 
school, to open businesses, to work, to prosper, to raise 
families, cannot be changed on the basis of sex by government. 
And that guarantee would be built into the Constitution rather 
than relying on shifting and politically appointed Justices of 
the Supreme Court to interpret.
    Senator Ossoff. It would enshrine in constitutional law not 
requiring reliance upon the latest jurisprudence or the 
disposition of Congress the fundamental principle that there 
should not be discrimination on the basis of sex. Correct?
    Ms. Sullivan. Exactly so, Senator.
    Senator Ossoff. Professor Foley, same question for you, 
please.
    Professor Foley. I think the most significant legal effect 
would be a shift from intermediate scrutiny to strict scrutiny. 
And I think, as Senator Lee pointed out, that would mean that 
more laws and distinctions between men and women would be ruled 
unconstitutional than they currently are. I think the most 
obvious example would be the distinction between men and women 
today on Selective Service registration and military draft. So, 
presumptively, those would be unconstitutional, that women 
would have to register and would be subject to the draft should 
this Amendment go into effect.
    Another possibility would be, right now under intermediate 
scrutiny, it is possible to make distinctions between men and 
women based on their gender, particularly when women are 
pregnant, and there is concern about exposing an unborn child 
to some hazard in the workplace. And I'm not sure--I would 
assume under strict scrutiny that that would not be possible 
anymore.
    Senator Ossoff. Thank you, Professor. Ms. Williams.
    Ms. Williams. So, as a young person, I believe while this 
Amendment will give me the tools to fight against workplace 
discrimination, workplace harassment, once it is passed, State 
laws would be passed and enforced to ensure that I am protected 
as a Black woman and that other Black women are also protected. 
So that's--yes.
    Senator Ossoff. Thank you, Ms. Williams. Ms. Braceras.
    Ms. Braceras. Well, sex discrimination and sexual 
harassment are already illegal in this country. And there are 
plenty of tools at the disposal of women who are victims to 
remedy those wrongs. That doesn't mean those things don't occur 
in our society today. They certainly do. But I'm happy that my 
three daughters live in a world where if they are discriminated 
against or harassed, they can bring a lawsuit to vindicate 
their rights. That is true today. That was not true completely 
in 1971 when this Amendment was introduced.
    Senator Ossoff. Thank you, Ms. Braceras.
    I appreciate all of your contributions. I'd reflect on the 
experience of my mother, immigrated to this country, supporting 
the ERA 50 years ago, on the founding principles enshrined in 
the text of our Constitution about the fundamental equality of 
human beings, at the time of their drafting referring 
exclusively to men.
    It strikes me with great respect for all of your views that 
it is a profound common sense that at this point in our 
Nation's development, we would enshrine in the most fundamental 
legal document that defines our country the basic principle, 
which I believe the overwhelming majority of Americans agree, 
that there should not be discrimination on the basis of sex and 
that we should not rely upon the shifting tides of 
jurisprudence or the political disposition of the Congress to 
make that fundamental value a core part of American law. Thank 
you, all, for your contributions. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    Chair Durbin. Thank you, Senator Ossoff. And thanks to this 
panel.
    I'd like to say a few words. Fifty years ago when I was a 
brand-new lawyer fighting for the passage of the Equal Rights 
Amendment in the Illinois State Senate, many people, including 
a woman named Phyllis Schlafly, who was from the State of 
Illinois, told us that what we thought were the issues were not 
really the issues. The real issue was the fate and future of 
public restrooms and whether or not you would have privacy in 
those restrooms based on gender.
    Now we hear that what's at stake really is not a 
constitutional right for women, but the fate of field hockey. I 
mean, I'm trying to keep up with the arguments here, but it's--
--
    Ms. Braceras. It might not mean a lot to you, sir, but it 
means a lot to the girls who play.
    Chair Durbin. See, I believe you have a sincere belief in 
that. And I believe those girls would probably feel very 
strongly about the issue if they're field hockey players.
    Ms. Braceras. Particularly when they're displaced by males 
on the varsity team.
    Chair Durbin. But you see, that's what the argument comes 
down to, the fate of field hockey. And I think it is much more 
fundamental. We are talking about the role of women in the 
United States of America and where we stand.
    Ms. Williams, I heard your reference earlier to younger 
generations puzzled, shaking their head at all these gray-
haired politicians who are struggling with the very basic 
question as to whether women's rights should be enshrined in 
the Constitution. And they're off on tangents that most young 
people just don't get.
    Ms. Williams. We don't, right.
    Chair Durbin. Am I putting words in your mouth?
    Ms. Williams. I agree. No, I agree. I definitely agree. The 
concern about the sports, that's not what we're worried about. 
I'm pretty sure there are way more important things for young 
people to be stressing about at the moment.
    Chair Durbin. And at the heart of this is the Dobbs 
decision, and other decisions, which relate to the right and 
role of women today. I think there has been a dramatic 
evolution in my lifetime of the role of women. And I'm sure 
glad that my daughters, and I assume my granddaughters, will 
benefit from that.
    But we can't stop. If we don't get down, Ms. Sullivan, to 
the basics of whether or not there's a constitutional 
guarantee--I think we have another Senator on the way, so I'll 
speak for a few minutes more, which is the Chairman's 
prerogative, I guess.
    If we don't get down to the fundamental basics of whether 
the law recognizes that, then I guess we have to ask ourselves, 
why is there so much fear of this on the other side? Why do 
they think this is so threatening in terms of families, the 
role of women? We hear about prisons and all these things, and 
yet, if you went to the basic question of should we maintain 
strict scrutiny when it comes to race, I haven't heard a single 
person here say, no, let's get rid of it.
    They should, I believe, apply that standard and honor that 
standard in the future. So why not the role of women as opposed 
to men?
    I'm glad Senator Padilla is here. I'm going to let him--
I'll recognize him if he's prepared. Are you ready, Alex? 
Senator Padilla.
    Senator Padilla. Thank you, Mr. Chair. I appreciate the 
patience and understanding. I just returned from presiding over 
the Senate. There's a vote open. I'm sure you're aware. So 
we'll be making our way soon. But I wouldn't want to miss this 
opportunity to offer some remarks.
    I appreciate you and Ranking Member Graham for holding this 
important hearing. As we've discussed this morning, the ERA is 
and always has been about addressing sex-based inequality.
    For generations, women have had to fight for access to some 
of our most basic rights. And in my view, last summer's Dobbs 
opinion was significant. Across the country, Americans have 
made their opposition loud and clear. And as we work to uplift 
their voices, we must ensure that we remember that, what is at 
stake here: Rights once recognized by the Supreme Court and 
held dear by Americans may no longer be safe unless they are 
enshrined in the Constitution.
    I know some of our colleagues on the other side of the 
aisle talked about--what's the issue, what's the problem. It's 
already unlawful in America. It's already unlawful in certain 
States to do X, Y, and Z, but we know those rights can easily 
be compromised.
    So, with that in mind, a modernization of the law to 
recognize sex equality is needed, and the guarantee of equal 
rights for women is non-negotiable. As we analyze this issue, I 
look forward to working with my colleagues to end sex-based 
discrimination in our country, once and for all.
    Now, I do have a question if Lieutenant Governor Stratton 
is still with us. I know she was participating virtually. 
Before becoming Lieutenant Governor of Illinois, you served as 
a member of the Illinois House of Representatives and were a 
leading advocate for the bipartisan vote--bipartisan vote that 
ratified the ERA in Illinois.
    I want you to describe your perception of the future of 
equality in America and what the impact the ERA ratification 
could have on future generations.
    Lieutenant Governor Stratton. Thank you so much for that 
question, Senator. I think the most important thing that I want 
to emphasize is that the Equal Rights Amendment will remove 
ambiguity and will make it abundantly clear that no one should 
be discriminated against on the basis of their sex. We have 
made progress, and we've heard today, yes, there's been 
progress made.
    Of course, there's been progress because there's been a lot 
of women for many generations who have been fighting for this 
progress.
    But we have to make sure that we not only keep the progress 
moving forward but that we protect any attacks on the progress 
that has already been made. That is what we talked about on the 
floor in 2018, in Illinois in that bipartisan vote. And that's 
why the Equal Rights Amendment is so important to provide a 
constitutional safeguard to prevent any efforts to roll back 
the gains that we have made toward women's equality.
    Senator Padilla. Thank you. I just want to make sure I get 
in at least one more question with my time remaining. 
Enshrining an explicit guarantee of sex equality in the 
Constitution would provide the strongest protection against 
sex-based discrimination.
    Unfortunately, State and Federal legal protections are 
vulnerable to future attempts to undermine women's security. 
And we need to look no further than the recent bills being 
introduced across the country targeting women's access to 
abortion care.
    A question for Ms. Sullivan: In your opinion, are judicial 
remedies like the Equal Protection Clause and the Due Process 
Clause strong enough to protect a woman's right to abortion 
access and care?
    Ms. Sullivan. Senator, the Equal Rights Amendment will 
guarantee that women are equal to men. It will not determine 
for all time difficult debates in our country like debates over 
reproductive rights. Constitutional rights are always subject 
to a balance, and I have no illusion that the ERA will end 
those debates. But Senator, it will guarantee equality. It will 
guarantee equality that women can't be treated as lesser than 
men.
    And this body has the chance to, as the Lieutenant Governor 
said, remove ambiguity. Who would answer the question, ``Are 
you for or against equal rights for women? '' Elsewhere in the 
world, there are people who would say they're against it. In 
this country, no one would say, ``I'm against equal rights for 
women.''
    So why not remove ambiguity about that? Why not remove 
ambiguity? And ambiguity is all that led the D.C. Circuit to 
act today. They said it was not clear and undisputable that 
Congress can--that the congressional deadline is incapable of 
binding the States. Make it clear and indisputable. Pass Senate 
Joint Resolution Number 4 and remove any doubt about that 
deadline. Conservatives tend to like two things, Senator. They 
like looking at the text, Article V has no deadlines, and they 
normally like States' rights.
    So why not allow Illinois, Nevada, and Virginia to deliver 
us into the modern world where we, like other nations of the 
world, have equal rights for women, as you said, Senator, 
enshrined in our most foundational document?
    Senator Padilla [presiding]. Well, thank you very much. 
Wish we had time for many more questions and much more 
discussion.
    But on behalf of Chairman Durbin, I want to thank the 
witnesses appearing before the Committee today. Today's hearing 
makes clear that we have waited far too long for the 
Constitution to finally explicitly recognize that equal rights 
should not be denied on the basis of sex.
    Tomorrow marks the beginning of Women's History Month. 
There is no better time to move forward on this joint 
resolution: Remove the arbitrary deadline that has held 
equality at bay, and, once and for all, enshrine equality into 
the United States Constitution. And with that, this hearing is 
adjourned. Thank you.
    [Whereupon, at 12:13 p.m., the hearing was adjourned.]
    [Additional material submitted for the record follows.]

                            A P P E N D I X

Submitted by Chair Durbin:

 #Faith4ERA Campaign, statement...................................   114

 American Constitution Society, statement.........................   124

 American Federation of Government Employees, AFL-CIO, letter.....   126

 American Federation of Labor-Congress of Industrial 
    Organizations, statement......................................   127

 Angus, Anne, letter..............................................   128

 Benenati, Audrey, MHA, letter....................................   129

 Bush, Hon. Cori, a Representative in Congress from the State of 
    Missouri, statement...........................................   130

 California Commission on the Status of Women and Girls, letter...   133

 Catholics for Choice, letter.....................................   135

 Dahlen, Eric R., letter..........................................   138

 Democrats Abroad, letter.........................................   139

 Denton, Davida, letter...........................................   141

 Equal Rights Amendment North Carolina Alliance, statement........   142

 Equal Rights Amendment Project at Columbia Law School, statement.   145

 Equality Now, statement..........................................   152

 ERA Coalition, statement.........................................   154

 Feminist Front, statement........................................   159

 Generation Ratify, statement.....................................   161

 Leading Women of Tomorrow, letter................................   163

 League of Women Voters of the United States, statement...........   166

 Legal Momentum, statement........................................   169

 Maryland National Organization for Women, statement..............   171

 Mid-Day Women's Alliance, statement..............................   173

 National Federation of Democratic Women, statement...............   174

 National Organization for Women, statement.......................   178

 National Women's Political Caucus, statement.....................   180

 Nourse, Victoria, statement......................................   181

 Ohio National Organization for Women, letter.....................   185

 Pyron, Anne, email correspondence................................   187

 South Carolina Equal Means ERA, statement........................   188

 Suk, Julie C., letter............................................   190

 Vote Mama, statement.............................................   196

 Women Lawyers on Guard Action Network, letter and attachment.....   197

 Wright, Danaya C., statement.....................................   215

 YWCA USA, letter.................................................   221

 Zonta USA Caucus, statement......................................   224

Submitted by Ranking Member Graham:

 National Right to Life Committee, article........................   226

 National Right to Life Committee, report.........................   236

Submitted by Senator Cruz:

 Concerned Women for America and Young Women for America, letter 1   257


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