[Senate Hearing 118-15]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]


                                                         S. Hrg. 118-15

                     BEYOND THE 9 TO 5: DISMANTLING
                     BARRIERS AND BUILDING ECONOMIC
                      RESILIENCE FOR OLDER WORKERS

=======================================================================

                                HEARING

                               BEFORE THE

                       SPECIAL COMMITTEE ON AGING

                          UNITED STATES SENATE

                    ONE HUNDRED EIGHTEENTH CONGRESS


                             FIRST SESSION
                               __________

                            WASHINGTON, D.C.
                               __________

                             APRIL 20, 2023
                               __________

                           Serial No. 118-03

         Printed for the use of the Special Committee on Aging
         
                  
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        Available via the World Wide Web: http://www.govinfo.gov
        
                               __________

                    U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE
                    
52-240 PDF                WASHINGTON : 2023          
        

                       SPECIAL COMMITTEE ON AGING

              ROBERT P. CASEY, JR., Pennsylvania, Chairman

KIRSTEN E. GILLIBRAND, New York      MIKE BRAUN, Indiana
RICHARD BLUMENTHAL, Connecticut      TIM SCOTT, South Carolina
ELIZABETH WARREN, Massachusetts      MARCO RUBIO, Florida
MARK KELLY, Arizona                  RICK SCOTT, Florida
RAPHAEL WARNOCK, Georgia             J.D. VANCE, Ohio
JOHN FETTERMAN, Pennsylvania         PETE RICKETTS, Nebraska
                              ----------                              
               Elizabeth Letter, Majority Staff Director
                Matthew Sommer, Minority Staff Director

                         C  O  N  T  E  N  T  S

                              ----------                              

                                                                   Page

Opening Statement of Senator Robert P. Casey, Jr., Chairman......     1
Opening Statement of Senator Mike Braun, Ranking Member..........     2

                           PANEL OF WITNESSES

Ernest Gonzales, Ph.D., James Weldon Johnson Professor of Social 
  Work, New York University, Director of the Center for Health 
  and Aging Innovation, New York, New York.......................     4
Liya Palagashvili, Ph.D., Senior Research Fellow, Mercatus 
  Center, George Mason University, Arlington, Virginia...........     6
Christine Vanlandingham, CEO, Michigan Region IV Area Agency on 
  Aging, Hartford, Michigan......................................     8
Dave McLimans, Retired Steelworker, Steelworkers Organization of 
  Active Retirees (SOAR) District 10, Board Member, Parkesburg, 
  Pennsylvania...................................................    10

                                APPENDIX
                      Prepared Witness Statements

Ernest Gonzales, Ph.D., James Weldon Johnson Professor of Social 
  Work, New York University, Director of the Center for Health 
  and Aging Innovation, New York, New York.......................    27
Liya Palagashvili, Ph.D., Senior Research Fellow, Mercatus 
  Center, George Mason University, Arlington, Virginia...........    48
Christine Vanlandingham, CEO, Michigan Region IV Area Agency on 
  Aging, Hartford, Michigan......................................    67
Dave McLimans, Retired Steelworker, Steelworkers Organization of 
  Active Retirees (SOAR) District 10, Board Member, Parkesburg, 
  Pennsylvania...................................................    72

                        Questions for the Record

Ernest Gonzales, Ph.D., James Weldon Johnson Professor of Social 
  Work, New York University, Director of the Center for Health 
  and Aging Innovation, New York, New York.......................    77
Christine Vanlandingham, CEO, Michigan Region IV Area Agency on 
  Aging, Hartford, Michigan......................................    97

                       Statements for the Record

AARP Statement...................................................   103

 
                     BEYOND THE 9 TO 5: DISMANTLING
                     BARRIERS AND BUILDING ECONOMIC 
                      RESILIENCE FOR OLDER WORKERS

                              ----------                              


                        Thursday, April 20, 2023

                                        U.S. Senate
                                 Special Committee on Aging
                                                    Washington, DC.
    The Committee met, pursuant to notice, at 9:32 a.m., Room 
106, Dirksen Senate Office Building, Hon. Robert P. Casey, Jr., 
Chairman of the Committee, presiding.
    Present: Senator Casey, Blumenthal, Warnock, Braun, Rick 
Scott, Vance, and Ricketts.

                 OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR 
                 ROBERT P. CASEY, JR., CHAIRMAN

    The Chairman. Good morning. The Senate Special Committee on 
Aging will come to order. Welcome to the Committee's third 
hearing of the 118th Congress focused on dismantling barriers 
and building economic resilience for older workers.
    In April 2021, this Committee held a hearing about older 
workers' economic security, as millions felt the impact of the 
pandemic recession. Two years later, today's hearing revisits a 
similar topic, examining the State of the aging workforce today 
and opportunities to support these Americans into the future.
    We know that older Americans are working longer than ever 
before. Recent data shows that only 45 percent, just 45 percent 
of 65-year-olds are currently retired, compared to 58 percent 
in 2000.
    Many seniors seek to remain in the workforce to make ends 
meet or to regain income lost while caregiving. In fact, 
roughly one in three older adults aged 65 and older are 
economically insecure, with the average income being below 200 
percent of the Federal poverty level, and it is worse in 
communities of color.
    Over half of Black and Hispanic older adults over the age 
of 65 are economically insecure. I think I speak for every 
American when I say this is unacceptable. We must work to 
ensure that older adults are economically secure in retirement 
so that we can spend time--so they can spend time with their 
families and friends after decades of hard work and 
contributions to our economy.
    This economic security cannot be achieved without 
protections in the workplace. I have continued to push Congress 
to shore up these protections, including dismantling barriers 
like age discrimination.
    That is why I reintroduced my bipartisan Protecting Older 
Workers Against Discrimination Act, Senate Bill 1030, with 
Senators Grassley, Hassan, Collins, Baldwin, and Murkowski.
    This bipartisan Bill known by the acronym as we have a lot 
of them around here, POWADA, would restore crucial age 
discrimination protections and make it less burdensome for 
older workers to seek justice in court when they are the 
victims of discrimination in the workplace.
    We know that beyond age discrimination, our workplaces need 
safeguards to protect workers. Unions can provide critical 
protections for their workers, even into retirement. Something 
that I have heard time and again across Pennsylvania just in 
the last several weeks.
    In my hometown of Scranton, I heard from carpenters, union 
carpenters about the benefits that their local union provided, 
ensuring that they can retire with strong pensions and good 
health care.
    In Plymouth Meeting, in the Southeastern corner of our 
State, just this past Monday, I spoke to members of the Food 
and Commercial Workers Union, Local 1776, and they told me how 
the Union connected them to resources to assist with critical 
issues like caregiving and financial literacy.
    Today I look forward to hearing from Dave McLimans, someone 
I have known a long time--and put that on the record, I have 
known him a while. Dave is a retired steelworker from 
Parkesburg, Pennsylvania in Chester County. He will share his 
experience supporting other older workers transition into 
retirement.
    I believe Congress must continue fighting for workplace 
protections, fair wages, and retirement benefits to support 
older adults in the workplace and beyond. I want to thank 
Ranking Member Braun for again being with us today and helping 
us plan this hearing, and I will turn to him now for his 
opening remarks.

                     STATEMENT OF SENATOR 
                   MIKE BRAUN, RANKING MEMBER

    Senator Braun. Thank you, Chairman Casey, and thank you to 
all witnesses for being here. I ran a company for 37 years 
prior to becoming a U.S. Senator, and it was a real little one 
for so long, but as we grew both regionally and then 
nationally, it has been the same from the beginning. It is not 
as big a deal when you are little because the critical mass 
isn't as great, but as you grow, workforce, workforce, 
workforce.
    It was the biggest thing I heard about pre-COVID. It is 
even more intense now. In our State of Indiana, 135,000 jobs 
are begging to be filled that almost all of them pay more than 
your average four-year degree would. We so often look to trying 
to replenish those jobs, fill them for folks coming out of high 
school.
    Sadly, they are misguided often. We have got an untapped 
source that is right in front of us, that don't need to 
probably learn the work ethic, that have got the skills already 
developed. Speaking of unions and steel is--we are the biggest 
producer of that and they have got apprenticeships. That is so 
important.
    Businesses are going to have to realize that they have got 
to get involved not only with folks coming into the workforce 
but realizing that there is a big untapped source already 
having those skills. You know, we--I think inflation has been a 
scourge to all of us. It is the other thing I hear, along with 
workforce, that we have got to get tamped down.
    Until we do, it is going to make ineffective and it is 
going to be harder to do all the things we are talking about 
even here. You know, when it comes to 43 percent of older 
Americans are considering actually rejoining the workforce. 
That is an amazing number. I guess you can look at it two ways.
    Does that mean we are not doing a good enough job preparing 
where you can retire and enjoy yourself? Maybe it is because 
some people like me will never fully retire. You are going to 
want to be doing something, and just because that is the 
standard operating procedure, that doesn't mean that is where 
we should go.
    I think what we want to do here is find out what the best 
practices are, what we can do to make sure that we are not 
overlooking a source that sadly, I think has gone untapped. You 
know, another thing I am worried about is many elderly may want 
to do something that has got great flexibility.
    It takes me to being an independent contractor or 
participating in the gig economy, and I am one that believes 
there is such an important place for unions, especially when 
you are going up against the disproportionate power of large 
corporations, you need it.
    I don't want unions to be trying to get involved in stuff 
where you are an independent contractor, the gig economy, and 
main street small business in general. There is not a harder 
way to earn a paycheck than owning your own business to pay for 
your livelihood, and then having all the other things that go 
along with being maybe a business of one.
    I think that is a tricky balance there as well, so when it 
comes to what we are interested in, economic opportunities for 
the elderly, I think there is so much upside potential. I think 
we are finally talking about it, making it an issue out there.
    I led a bicameral letter with 46 of my colleagues urging 
the Administration to scrap a rule recently that I think 
impacts that business of one, and that is a place that gives 
you more flexibility than any job for someone wanting to come 
back into the workforce, so it is a tricky balance between 
having the right regulatory environment, the opportunity for 
skills that you have learned over a lifetime. It is 
unbelievable now for those that want to actually get back into 
the workforce, and I am glad to see that we are raising this to 
a profile that is going to discuss all aspects of the issue. 
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    The Chairman. Thank you, Ranking Member Braun. Now we will 
turn to the introduction of our witnesses. These introductions 
will be brief. I apologize for that in advance, but we want to 
get to their testimony.
    Our first witness is Dr. Ernest Gonzalez, who is the James 
Weldon Johnson Professor of Social Work at New York University 
in New York City, which many of us know as NYU. He is also the 
director of NYU's Center for Health and Aging Innovation, where 
he focuses on productive aging and increasing wellness through 
intergenerational connection, so we thank him for being here. I 
will turn next to Ranking Member Braun to introduce our second 
witness.
    Senator Braun. Dr. Liya Palagashvili--I had to take the 
phonics on that one, --is a Senior Research Fellow at George 
Mason University's Mercatus Center. She researches public 
policy and labor economics. Her focus is the future of work, 
nontraditional work arrangements, and the independent 
workforce. Dr. Palagashvili was previously a Professor of 
Economics at State University of New York, Purchase. She has 
been published in academic journals and media outlets, 
including The New York Times and the Wall Street Journal. 
Welcome.
    The Chairman. Our third witness is Christine Vanlandingham. 
Christine is the Chief Executive Officer at Region IV Area 
Agency on Aging, we often call AAA, another acronym, in 
Southwestern Michigan.
    The region IV AAA provides and facilitate a variety of in-
home and community-based services, including adult daycare, 
meal delivery, senior center programs, and mature worker 
programs like the Senior Community Service Employment Program, 
another acronym, SCSEP, S-C-S-E-P.
    We are grateful for her being here and traveling. She told 
me she had to go through LaGuardia to get to Washington, so we 
are working on that direct flight. Our fourth and final witness 
I made reference to in my opening day, Dave McLimans, former 
steelworker from Chester County.
    Dave served in the United States Army in Vietnam, and I 
think all of us join together in thanking Dave for his service 
to our country. Dave then worked as a steelworker until his 
retirement in 2013, having served in various leadership roles 
in his local union throughout his tenure.
    Today, Dave represents District X of the United 
Steelworkers Organization for Active Retirees, that goes by the 
acronym SOAR, S-O-A-R. Dave, thank you for being here today, so 
we will start with our first witness, Dr. Gonzalez.

       STATEMENT OF ERNEST GONZALES, PH.D., JAMES WELDON

           JOHNSON PROFESSOR OF SOCIAL WORK, NEW YORK

         UNIVERSITY, DIRECTOR OF THE CENTER FOR HEALTH

            AND AGING INNOVATION, NEW YORK, NEW YORK

    Dr. Gonzales. Thank you, Senators Casey and Braun, for 
inviting me today to present in front of this very Special 
Committee on Aging. I want to thank Senator Braun for 
representing my loving in-laws at the State of Indiana, and 
Senator Gillibrand, who I understand is at another hearing, 
another important one, from my adopted home State of New York.
    Senators, we are living longer than we have ever in the 
history of humankind. Prior to COVID, there was a study that 
predicted half of children that are born in Western society 
today will live to be 100 years of age.
    The other half are expected to push into their 80's and 
90's. Even as we emerge from the pandemic, epidemiologists are 
quite confident that extended longevity will rebound, similar 
to what happened during the global pandemic in our last 
century.
    The question before all of us is not just how do we live a 
long life, but how do we live a long, healthy life with a 
strong economic foundation, with strong social bonds, with 
family, friends, and community, and in a diverse, loving, and 
peaceful society?
    It is an honor to share with you some of the research that 
answers aspects of that question. The concept of productive 
aging really puts forward the fundamental view that we have to 
build the capacity of older adults to be better utilized in 
activities that make economic contributions to society, work, 
volunteering, caregiving, and education.
    Older workers make up 35 percent of the U.S. population, 
yet they contribute approximately 40 percent of the national 
economic output. There are also tutors in schools, and 
libraries, and hospitals, all valued at $77 billion annually, 
and the benefits of productive activities are not just in 
dollars.
    Under optimal conditions, employment and civic engagement 
is associated with fewer depressive symptoms, lower risk of 
mortality and hypertension, improved cognitive functioning, and 
increased economic security. Yet, Senators, cultural norms and 
social structures limit older adults' full participation in 
these important productive roles. Ageism is expensive.
    It cost the U.S. $850 billion in GDP each year due to the 
untapped resources of producing goods and services by older 
workers. Age discrimination is complex, at times evident, other 
times the subtle. Constant for some, episodic for others.
    Yet research clearly demonstrates that older workers 
experience age discrimination in nearly every phase of 
employment, hiring, promotion, performance evaluation, 
workplace opportunity, and climate, and age discrimination 
undermines health and is associated with early retirement and 
turnover.
    Legislation that requires targets to demonstrate age as a 
decisive factor in cases does not reflect the complexity of the 
phenomenon and is misaligned with age discrimination often co-
occurring with other forms of bias. In sum, age discrimination 
is bad for people and it is bad for the economy. We must end 
ageism and other forms of bias, and its possible.
    Interventions are needed across the macro to micro 
continuum. We need to pass proposed legislation, specifically 
Protecting Older Workers Against Discrimination Act, POWADA, 
which will send a clear cultural and institutional message that 
ageism in the workplace is not tolerated.
    Multi-generational workforces are naturally occurring, 
given longevity. The challenge now is to maximize the strengths 
and the talents of each generation rather than pitting them 
against each other. Ending ageism will maximize the capacity to 
work longer, yield greater economic and health outcomes for 
individuals, families, and society, and passing POWADA is an 
important first step.
    Shifting gears, a little bit, volunteering in later life, 
it is a hidden jewel. It is often a catalyst for retirees to 
return to work. Volunteering just a minimum of 200 hours per 
year leads to tremendous cognitive, physical, social, emotional 
health, and moreover, when policies bring older and younger 
generations together, there are often win, win, win outcomes, 
and the good news is that younger and older generations want to 
work together on critical issues, education, mental health, the 
environment, and housing. Living a long, healthy, and 
meaningful life with a solid economic foundation and strong 
social bonds requires us to re-imagine social policies within 
the context of living 100 years.
    Passing POWADA is an important first step, and bringing 
generations together is the second. I welcome further 
conversations with you and Senate staff members and thank you 
for having me here.
    The Chairman. Dr. Gonzalez, thank you for your testimony 
and your presence here today. I will now turn to Dr. 
Palagashvili.

         STATEMENT OF LIYA PALAGASHVILI, PH.D., SENIOR

            RESEARCH FELLOW, MERCATUS CENTER, GEORGE

             MASON UNIVERSITY, ARLINGTON, VIRGINIA

    Dr. Palagashvili. Good morning, Chairman Casey, Ranking 
Member Braun, and members of the Senate Special Committee on 
Aging. It is an honor to testify before you. My name is Liya 
Palagashvili, and I am an Economist at the Mercatus Center at 
George Mason University.
    My research focus is on the independent workforce and the 
evolving nature of work. Today, my testimony focuses on how 
independent work opportunities are increasingly valuable to 
older workers, especially at a time when the broader 
macroeconomic trends are troubling.
    My three key themes are one, the independent workforce 
provides flexible work arrangements for millions of older 
Americans. Two, with rising inflation and a gloomy economic 
outlook, older workers face a troubling future, and three, 
policies that restrict independent work will disproportionately 
harm older workers. Nontraditional employment arrangements, 
such as freelancing, contracting, gig work or self-employment 
have long been a main source of income opportunities for 
retired or older workers who have moved past the nine to five 
routine but remain open to transitioning to part time or short-
term work. According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics.
    There was a survey in 2017 and found that older workers 
were more likely to be independent contractors than any other 
age group. The share of 55 and older workers accounted for 
close to 40 percent of the overall--of overall independent 
contractors. Independent work opportunities for older workers 
are found across a variety of different occupations and roles.
    For example, on call workers ages 55 to 64 were most likely 
to be substitute teachers at elementary and secondary schools. 
A National Bureau of Economic Research study illustrated how 
the likelihood of individuals being independent workers and in 
self-employment increases significantly with age.
    As individuals approach retirement, they may have financial 
or personal reasons for continuing to work. However, the short 
term flexible or reduced hour arrangements they need may be 
more difficult to find within the traditional employment jobs.
    For example, there was a recent economics research with a 
survey that found that many employers do not offer employees 
nearing retirement age the option to reduce their hours on 
their current jobs.
    Therefore, for many older workers, independent work is an 
attractive way to ease into retirement, to earn income when 
they are no longer part of the full-time employment workforce, 
especially if they already have health care coverage. The 
Federal Reserve announced last week that a recession is 
expected in the coming months. At the same time, we are still 
seeing high prices for basic good necessities.
    This is worrisome for older workers whose employment 
prospects are generally poor, and many older Americans live on 
fixed incomes or limited savings. In fact, several news outlets 
have profiled stories of older and retired workers who are 
expecting to return to work at age 75 to cover the increased 
costs of food, rent, medicine, and utilities.
    This makes it vital to support independent work 
opportunities. However, there are Federal policies and 
regulations that seek to restrict this independent work and 
self-employment opportunities, such as the Department of Labor 
has recently proposed new regulations on independent 
contractors.
    The DOL is proposing these regulations to restrict 
independent work with hopes that organizations will hire these 
workers as employees instead. Now, at first glance, this may 
seem like a win for workers who are reclassified as employees.
    However, because older workers voluntarily leave employment 
to pursue independent work opportunities, having fewer of them 
available is not a win, win situation. It is also, of course, 
impossible for every single independent work opportunity to 
turn into a full-time offer, employment offer, thereby leading 
to job losses.
    The rule does go far in impacting legitimate independent 
workers who are properly classified. It is also worth noting 
that the DOL's almost 200-page rule creates more complexity and 
confusion in determining whether a worker is indeed properly 
classified as an independent worker.
    That means even if a worker is properly classified, the new 
rule would still deter organizations, especially small 
businesses who don't have extensive legal counsel, from working 
with contractors and independent workers altogether, and this 
is actually, in fact, precisely what happened with AB5, which 
is a similar rule in California that restricted independent 
work.
    It was actually small businesses like music venues, 
theaters, and opera that stopped working with independent 
workers because they were afraid of even a potential 
misclassification issue, when the reality was that many of 
these workers were already properly classified.
    Eliminating independent worker opportunities will mean that 
older workers will have few opportunities to earn income, 
further increasing financial stress in their households. Thank 
you, and I welcome your questions.
    The Chairman. Doctor, thanks very much. I saw the way you 
wrapped up there as I was turning red. That is impressive. 
Doesn't always happen here.
    Dr. Palagashvili. Thank you.
    The Chairman. Thanks very much for your testimony. Ms. 
Vanlandingham, thank you very much.

           STATEMENT OF CHRISTINE VANLANDINGHAM, CEO,

               MICHIGAN REGION IV AREA AGENCY ON

                   AGING, HARTFORD, MICHIGAN

    Ms. Vanlandingham. I will try to match that cadence. Thank 
you, and good morning, Senators Casey and Braun. Region IV Area 
Agency on Aging is one of 16 area agencies on aging in 
Michigan, and one of 614 in the Nation, all designated under 
the Older Americans Act to develop, coordinate, and deliver a 
wide range of home and community-based services to support 
older adults and their caregivers with the goal of enabling 
them to live and age well in their homes and communities.
    Thank you for the opportunity to testify today. 
Participating in the labor market, even at an older age, has 
positive impacts on social connectedness, self-rated health, 
and as a critical component of financial well-being, but older 
Americans face significant barriers to job entry or reentry.
    The barriers we most often see include inadequate 
technology skills and insufficient broadband access. A lack of 
a professional network to help find job opportunities. 
Caregiving duties, and pervasive age discrimination.
    To address these challenges, our agency supports low-income 
older adults through employment barrier identification, 
technology, education, on the job training, caregiver supports, 
and a campaign to tackle ageism head on.
    The Senior Community Service Program, or SCSEP, authorized 
by the Title V of the Older Americans Act, is central to our 
jobs training program. SCSEP provides on the job training for 
unemployed job seekers who are age 55 and older and have a 
family income of no more than 125 percent of the Federal 
poverty level. Staff work with older job seekers to identify 
career goals and overcome barriers.
    Older job seekers are matched with nonprofit organization 
host sites in our community, where participants work in on the 
job training opportunities for which they are paid minimum wage 
for their service.
    They receive interview coaching, resume writing, and 
individualized help securing unsubsidized employment that is 
permanent. Funding for the SCSEP program is severely limited. 
Region IV AAA is funded for only 13 positions in a region that 
serves over 76,000 older adults.
    Our AAA offers additional job training services through our 
campus for creative aging, where we cast a vision of older 
years being a time of creativity, purpose, growth, and 
learning. We have a state-of-the-art computer learning center, 
where volunteers teach classes for older learners in age 
friendly technology training, and teachers that range in age 
from 17 to 80 plus.
    Older adults and younger individuals benefit from this 
shared learning experience. It breaks down barriers and reduces 
stereotypes when cross generations share an experience.
    Ageism, including a general assumption that older 
jobseekers are not able to learn new skills, is among the most 
often cited reason older job seekers say they are not able to 
secure employment.
    People like Margaret Lowe from Benton Harbor. She left the 
job market when she needed to care for her mother. With a 
background in social work, Margaret had maintained full time 
employment even while caring for her son, who is a special 
needs child.
    The additional caregiving responsibilities for her mother 
made full time employment impossible. Margaret cared for her 
mother for 15 years. She lives on Social Security income that 
is less than $17,000 a year, which means that Margaret can no 
longer meet her living expenses and needs to reenter the job 
market.
    She applied for numerous positions, and with a college 
education and good work history, she assumed she would be able 
to find a job. Given these, the workforce challenges right now, 
she was not correct. She struggled to find--to even get one 
interview.
    When asked why, Margaret said, it is my age. It has to be. 
I have a college education, a good work history, but they see 
the years on my resume, know approximately how old I am, and 
think I can't do the job. She is currently serving as a SCSEP 
participant in a call center in our community.
    She is updating her computer skills and executing a plan to 
secure unsubsidized employment. When asked what she would like 
this Committee to know, Margaret replied, give older workers a 
chance. We are more stable. We show up on time.
    With maturity comes the ability to adjust and be adaptable, 
and we can learn. There is no reason I can't do this job, if 
given a chance. Congress can better support programs in 
assisting older workers by appropriating adequate funding for 
Older Americans Act Title V SCSEP programing, funding senior 
technology programs at the community level, and increasing 
access, and combating ageism and age discrimination at every 
level. The other--another high barrier is caregiving 
responsibilities.
    Like Margaret, one in five adults in the United States 
faces the challenges of caring for aging parents or other 
relatives. Shifting ahead to save time. With adequate funding 
for the Title III Caregiver Supportive--Caregiver Supportive 
Services, fewer Americans providing care for aging or disabled 
loved ones will need to reduce or leave their employment, and 
employers will save money in terms of workplace--workforce 
turnover.
    These challenges must be faced head on if we as a nation 
want to encourage economic self-sufficiency, to promote staying 
engaged as we age, and to offer all workers equal opportunity 
to contribute.
    It is not just the right thing to do for older workers. It 
is the financially prudent one to do. Supporting older workers 
helps us all. In reducing barriers and investing in older 
workers, our society and our economy can tap the significant 
amount of social capital that is older workers' knowledge, 
experience, while gaining a stronger, more diverse workforce 
that stands ready to help today's--address today's workforce 
challenges.
    Doubling funding for the senior Community Services Program 
so that more low-income workers and potential workers can get 
the training they need. Doubling funding for the National 
Family Caregivers Support Program Title III E so more family 
caregivers can stay engaged in the workforce, and ensuring that 
broadband access efforts are also paired with technology 
training for older adults. To be trained--to be successful, 
this training has to be delivered at the community level. We 
use volunteers, but more financial resources are needed to 
deliver this work.
    Thank you for your attention to the barriers and challenges 
that older workers face, and your willingness to undertake 
solutions. The National Network of Area Agencies on Aging is 
ready to help. Thank you.
    The Chairman. Thank you, Ms. Vanlandingham, and grateful 
for your testimony. We will conclude with Dave McLimans.

               STAEMENT OF DAVE McLIMANS, RETIRED

             STEELWORKER, STEELWORKERS ORGANIZATION

             OF ACTIVE RETIREES (SOAR) DISTRICT 10,

             BOARD MEMBER, PARKESBURG, PENNSYLVANIA

    Mr. McLimans. Chairman Casey and Ranking Member Braun, 
Members of the Committee, thank you for the opportunity to 
testify before you today. My name is David McLimans.
    I am a Vietnam veteran and a 54-year member of the United 
Steelworkers. I first held my union card after my tour of duty 
in the U.S. Army ended in 1969, becoming a steelworker member 
in Bud Company's trailer division.
    I became a shop steward in 1972 and eventually financial 
secretary, and then I became president of the union. That plant 
closed in 1987 and the company tried to walk away from us. It 
was the saddest State of affairs, former employees, management, 
and union personnel hanging by a thread, but we had rights and 
we had the union.
    We fought for what we were owed and what we had a right to, 
as outlined in our union contract. We recouped five weeks back 
pay for my brothers and sisters, and we fought successfully to 
recover the pension and benefits that were promised on paper.
    The pension still pays retirees like myself to this day 
because of our union and our work. I still had many years ahead 
of me, and in 1988 I began my career again at Lucan Steel 
Company in Coatesville.
    Five Company name changes later, the steel mill is now 
owned by Cleveland-Cliffs, and I will say that Lucan Steel 
Company is the oldest continuously operating steel mill in the 
country. It was formed in 1810 by the first female 
industrialist, which was Rebecca Lucas, and anyway, still 
operating today.
    I retired from working in the melt shop, but in 2013, when 
I was 67. Some people wondered why I didn't retire earlier, but 
I enjoyed the physical activity, and since my--I am an Agent 
Orange diabetic, it was good for me to keep moving around.
    The good thing about the union is that we negotiate with 
the company on ways to support workers throughout their working 
careers and ensure a safe working environment. The union helps 
set the terms so that we can focus on doing our job and doing 
it right.
    When I retired, my participation in the union did end. 
Coatesville has one of the first chapters of the Steelworkers 
Organization of Active Retirees, SOAR. Formed in 1985, SOAR is 
an integral part to our union's mission.
    SOAR helps educate retirees on their pensions and retiree 
health care options available through our contracts. SOAR has 
also education members on Federal policies which impact 
retirees' pocketbooks, like changes in Social Security and 
Medicare and Medicaid.
    For example, the Federal Government and--the Federal 
Government and States together spend $116 billion in Medicaid 
home and community-based services in 2020, serving millions of 
elderly adults and people with disabilities.
    This is why SOAR and the USW educate on the debt ceiling 
and the need for no cuts and two programs which aid retirees 
like Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid. I didn't serve my 
country to work and pay taxes for 44 years as an active 
steelworker just to let my voice fade away and see younger 
generations lose benefits that I fought for, and my fathers, 
and my father and grandparents fought for their whole--all our 
lives.
    We also supported the American Rescue Plan and the Special 
Financial Assistance Program for multiemployer pensions, also 
known as the Butch Lewis Act. Over one million retirees face 
dramatic cuts to their benefits and through no fault of their 
own.
    The Butch Lewis Program was a small amount of aid during 
the COVID pandemic, with huge--it was huge benefits. Congress 
approved close to $4 trillion in loans and loan guarantees to 
businesses and individuals, which is a hopeful--or helpful 
comparison when reflecting on the estimated $94 billion cost to 
preserve a pension system benefiting 10 million participants.
    It would also cost the Government more if we let those 
plans collapse. Our SOAR chapter has regular meetings in which 
we go over the issues of the day and schedule speakers for each 
meeting.
    For example, we just had Bill Pearce of the exec--the 
Executive Director of the Brandywine Valley Active Aging Agency 
who explained all the services available in the region. We are 
a part of the community, a place to gather and learn. Finally, 
our SOAR chapter is a source of institutional knowledge.
    I can't tell you the number of times I have helped former 
members with ways to access their pension and their benefits, 
or a place to go for help, and you would be surprised, a lot of 
guys think they have lost their pension, but the problem is 
they just haven't changed their address so you could make 
contact to them, you know?
    I encourage the Committee to uplift older workers and union 
retiree organizations like SOAR in their work. We urge Senators 
to support community groups like ours, and finally, as you look 
to the future, I urge you not to cut or change benefits to 
Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid.
    We are the richest democracy in the world, and you know, we 
can afford to allow workers to relax, retire in dignity. Thanks 
for your time, and I look forward to answering questions that 
you may have.
    The Chairman. Dave thanks for your testimony, and all of 
our witnesses. We will go to questions. Before I do that, I 
want to make note of the schedule around here. It is Thursday. 
A lot of Senators are in and out of the hearing, have other 
hearings to go to. Some juggling two hearings, three hearings.
    I know Senator Braun and I are juggling at least two, 
including this one, but some juggling more than that. We are 
joined by Senator Ricketts, who is here, a new member of the 
Senate and a new member of the Committee.
    Obviously, we are grateful he is here, and as others appear 
and ready for questions. Senator Vance just arrived as well. We 
appreciate him being here, but Dave, I will start with you. I 
will just take you back to those moments when you are coming up 
on retirement, as you said, 10 years ago.
    Mr. McLimans. Yes.
    The Chairman. You served your country in Vietnam, and you 
were with the steelworkers all those decades. Then you are 
ready to retire. I guess I want to ask you a two-part question 
that are related.
    One is to ask you, what were the challenges you faced then 
and understanding what you needed to learn or know about your 
own retirement as a steelworker? Then two, how did that 
experience then and then since that time, help you work with 
others when they are facing a similar set of questions, that 
are retiring?
    I think a lot of Americans, whether they are in a union or 
not, when they come to retirement, they got a lot of complex 
questions they are trying to navigate through, so tell us about 
what you were thinking at the time, and then how that has 
helped you work with others.
    Mr. McLimans. [Technical problems]--there we go, okay. 
Moving up to retirement, I hadn't planned on retiring when I 
did, but we were going to spring training, so I went down, you 
know, I said, well, this is at the end of February, we are 
going.
    I was going to wait till the hot weather got there, because 
a melt shop was hot, hot, dirty, nasty. It has got every kind 
of element you would want, but I figured I would wait until 
July but didn't happen.
    Anyway, the work up to retirement is, you know you are 
going to lose--not going to lose your friends, but you are 
going to miss the guys you work with, and I loved the work. It 
didn't bother me. I know it was hot, dangerous, and all that 
good stuff that comes with making steel, but I enjoyed the 
physical activity.
    Physical activity was good for me being a diabetic, and why 
not, just keep going outside. After retirement, I just 
continued on with my union activities, and I would go down the 
union hall maybe three or four times a week to see what needed 
to be done.
    If there were people I used to work with, say Bud Company, 
they didn't know what happened to their pension, and I would 
tell them, hey, here is what you have--I keep it in my wallet.
    You know, let me write this on a card. You can call these 
people. You will get your pension. It is there. Just, it is not 
a lot, not like a steel mill pension, but you still--you need 
to get it. Every dime counts when you retire, believe me. Every 
dime counts. Every penny, and, you know, it has been a great 
deal and I am happy to keep on being involved.
    The Chairman. You still get a lot of those kind of basic 
questions from----
    Mr. McLimans. All the time, all the time, and phone calls. 
How do you make this heat in the mill? You know, just do what 
you do? Not that I am a professor of meteorology, but I did the 
job for a lot of years and it is not hard, you know, you just 
do what you have to do.
    The Chairman. Well, we appreciate what SOAR does to keep 
those steelworkers informed about what is available to them, 
and having those, as you said, having those speakers come in 
and provide that kind of background and education.
    I will move to Dr. Gonzales about the question that has 
been--you made reference to and so several of our witnesses 
have age discrimination. I mentioned the Bill that we have, a 
bipartisan Bill, a pretty simple Bill. What we are trying to do 
is to restore the level of proof that was there before a 
Supreme Court decision that was decided way back in 2009, so 
you have had all these years with this different standard that 
a worker has to prove in order to be successful in those--in 
that case.
    I am grateful that we have bipartisan support for a Bill 
that will restore that standard that was there for so many 
years under the Age Discrimination and Employment Act, but, Dr. 
Gonzalez, based upon your research, and I know you have spent a 
lot of time in this, how would this particular Bill, the 
Protecting Older Workers Against Discrimination Act, help 
protect older workers from workplace discrimination?
    Dr. Gonzales. Thank you for the question. You know, 
discrimination within the workplace is really quite complex, 
and through quantitative, representative samples that I have 
really drawn most of my conclusions from, it varies all 
depending on sociodemographic characteristics.
    You know, we had a testimony here talking about Margaret, 
and she was so crystal clear that it was age discrimination. 
Quantitatively and qualitative research, some can't say that is 
the reason--that is the reason why. More often than not, 
respondents say, well, it could be a confluence of issues.
    It could be because of ageism and sexism. It could be--you 
know, it is very, very difficult. Interestingly, in the samples 
of older adults in the health and retirement study, it is 
representative. I looked at workplace discrimination and 
everyday discrimination, and workplace discrimination, there 
was older whites that reported the highest level of 
discrimination.
    In 2006, there was about 82 percent. One of my Ph.D. 
students recently told me that they looked at the 2020 data and 
it had significantly increased since then. From workplace 
discrimination, it is after whites report the highest rates. It 
is blacks and Hispanics. Everyday discrimination, similar 
findings.
    The difference between everyday discrimination and 
workplace discrimination, at least from a research perspective, 
is every day that follows up, why do you think you were 
discriminated against? Half of that sample can't answer why. 
They can't attribute it to one reason or another.
    The other half, when we stratify by race and ethnicity, 
ageism is the first reason for whites and Hispanics. It is the 
second reason for blacks. Racism is the first reason for 
blacks, and so, all of that complexity happens in real time, 
over time. It is subtle, sometimes quite evident. It is very 
difficult to say that age isn't the decisive factor, and so 
really, going back to Congress's intentions back in the 1970's, 
that age could be a factor, really protects individuals and 
really gives them a winning chance to really, you know, win in 
this in court.
    Right now, after--during the pandemic, I was working with 
the National Academy of Sciences on a consensus report, and in 
that report, we came to the conclusion that under law 
currently, it is older white men that disproportionately win 
age discrimination cases compared to their counterparts, and I 
think that resonates with the quantitative data that I have 
just presented, too, so really going back to Congress's 
original intent would bolster the capacity for individuals to 
be protected from age discrimination win cases, and when they 
come before the court, and it would also send a clear cultural 
message--sorry, I know you want to ask your questions. It will 
send us a clear cultural message that it is not acceptable.
    The Chairman. Doctor, thanks very much. I will turn to 
Ranking Member Braun.
    Senator Braun. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I will go after 
Senator Vance. I think you got a conflict.
    Senator Vance. Yes, I appreciate that, Mr. Chair and 
Ranking Member Braun. I want to direct my questions to Dr. 
Palagashvili. All right, good. Good, glad I screwed that one 
up. I like to challenge myself here in these Committee 
hearings.
    You know, one of the things is just thinking about age 
discrimination and some of our older Americans in the 
workforce, you know, this is an issue I know very personally. I 
was raised by my grandparents.
    You know, one of the things that occurs to me is that we 
have a lot of older Americans who are in the workforce, who are 
providing very valuable services, they just aren't getting paid 
for it, right, and I believe the number is about two million 
American children are currently being raised full time by their 
grandparents.
    That doesn't count, of course, the many millions of 
Americans on top of that who are in some sort of kinship 
arrangement, and I guess the first question I have, doctor, is 
just there are a lot of ways in which we subsidize different 
childcare arrangements at the Federal Government level. We 
subsidize daycare, we subsidize other childcare arrangements, 
and I have no criticism or problem with any of those 
arrangements, but it does occur to me that when we subsidize 
some arrangements but we don't subsidize the arrangements that 
most, that fall hardest on some of our grandparents and also 
the children who are raised by grandparents, that that maybe 
can cause some problems.
    I am just curious what your views are on that, about 
whether we should maybe be a little bit less biased in how we 
think about childcare from a Federal social policy perspective. 
It seems like we have a particular bias right now, and 
unfortunately, that bias falls against some of our elderly 
folks.
    Dr. Palagashvili. Senator Vance, that is a really great 
question and a very important topic. It is slightly outside of 
my expertise and not--I don't focus on that, but I will tell 
you that my research focuses on the independent workforce, and 
what we do see there is that a lot of caregivers go into 
independent work precisely because it provides them the 
flexibility that they need to take care of their family members 
and still make income at the same time.
    I am happy to, you know, speak to that a bit more if you 
are interested, but that is something that is an important 
source of income.
    When we look at surveys of moms, working moms who are 
primary caregivers who voluntarily left employment, and they 
talk specifically about leaving employment because they needed 
to take on more flexible work arrangements to be able to also 
care for their families, and so, these different, 
nontraditional employment arrangements actually provide 
valuable work opportunities for moms.
    Senator Vance. Yes, let me just pick up on that thread a 
little bit. You know, you have obviously studied the 
independent work arrangements a fair amount, and I guess if you 
could walk me through, what is really driving, let's take, you 
know, obviously focusing on elderly Americans, what is driving 
a lot of those folks who want to reenter the workforce? You 
mentioned flexibility.
    Obviously, there is income, right? People need money to get 
by, and unfortunately, we live in a, you know, a high inflation 
environment where a lot of people are finding that their fixed 
income, their Social Security check just isn't going as far.
    What is really sort of driving this? Is it a sense of a 
fulfillment, a desire to sort of do something, you know, in a 
post-retirement world? Is it purely income driven? Is it 
flexibility driven? I would like to understand sort of what is 
driving people.
    Dr. Palagashvili. Thank you, Senator Vance. Fantastic 
question, and it is actually both things that you mentioned, so 
the research suggests that older workers continue to work for a 
combination of financial necessity and preference for work.
    Actually, we see more older workers right now doing it for 
financial reasons rather than preferences because of the 
troubling state of our economy and high prices, and I will note 
on the flexibility aspect as well, there is a recent study that 
was published in a high-ranking economics journal that actually 
found that about 60 percent of non-working older Americans 
would be willing to work, return to work if there were flexible 
work arrangements and reduced hour arrangements available to 
them.
    Senator Vance. Great. Thank you, doctor. Thanks for 
everybody else for being here. Sorry we didn't get time to 
ask--to answer questions.
    Dr. Gonzales, sorry, let me--because I know I am running 
low on time here and I want to be respectful, but let me just 
close by saying that I think it is worth us thinking about 
this. As a lot of grandparents are being driven back into the 
workforce, some for their own reasons, some for purely external 
financial hardship reasons, that is going to affect a lot of 
our young kids and a lot of the grandparents who are taking 
care of them. Thank you.
    The Chairman. Thank you, Senator Vance. We will turn next 
to Senator Braun.
    Senator Braun. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Senator Vance 
basically asked the question I was most interested in that 
relative difference between, you know, what is motivating folks 
when you most likely want to be enjoying life, you know, to 
come back into the workforce.
    I think you made it fairly clear and they want flexibility 
when they do get in there. This could be, I say pull this out 
of my opening statement and to put a little meat on the bone on 
why, half of older Americans have spent their emergency fund.
    That is the number one thing that any financial adviser 
will say have that set aside. Half of them have gone through 
it. Quarter have depleted whatever retirement income they had 
in terms of gone through that as well, sometimes drawing it 
down much quicker if it is above and beyond what you get 
through Social Security, never imagined doing it.
    I think the other thing that is coming along, and I have, 
you know, weighed in against it, you have got policies. Like 
currently there is a policy out there that enables fiduciaries 
to actually push, you know, different investments that may not 
highlight the best return on investment, and that is called the 
ESG rule.
    I am the Republican that started the climate caucus here, 
took a lot of heat for it. I think it is important, but how 
much of that, you know, the where you are depleting your 
savings, you are now maybe marginalizing your return. The only 
study said that that would lower your return by 30 percent.
    Is that scaring people back into the workforce? Or, and if 
we had less of that, would we have less of a need to bring 
older people back into the workforce? Ms. Vanlandingham, would 
you comment on that? Then, doctor, you as well.
    Ms. Vanlandingham. Certainly. Thank you for the question. 
We absolutely do see older adults returning to the workforce 
out of a sense of need. It is at times because they have 
depleted their savings, as you say.
    They are out of pocket medical costs have depleted them and 
perhaps changes in their retirement plans and bad investment 
advice. I will say that predominantly it is individuals who are 
in economic need, and then second behind that is those that 
find retirement, sitting on--playing golf all the time or 
sitting around waiting for the next thing to happen is not what 
it is all cracked up to be.
    They want purpose and they want meaning, and as Dave talked 
about the physical benefits that he gets from being engaged and 
staying active and having purpose, that is where a lot of the 
benefit happens, so yes, the retirement income has not--doesn't 
go as far as they have anticipated. Medical costs, out of 
pocket medical costs are eating up those savings, but it is a 
lot about purpose driven and wanting to be valued and be able 
to have a contribution to our economy and to society.
    Senator Braun. Doctor, apologize--very briefly on it, 
because I have got another question.
    Dr. Palagashvili. I would agree with my lovely neighbor 
over here that we do see older workers, according to the 
economics research, go in for financial reasons, and of course, 
the other aspect of that is personal reasons, so I won't have 
much more to add to that. Thank you.
    Senator Braun. Dr. Gonzales, you mentioned the therapeutic 
benefit, and Dave weighed in on that as well, and I can see 
where that makes a difference.
    The thing I hear most often when elderly do get to a job, 
it is a world of technology currently, and I know my own skills 
and I have had to really get refinement over time to fully 
embrace it.
    You know, my company, we leverage technology as a 
differentiator in a logistics and distribution business. How 
much of an impediment is the lack of maybe the comfortability 
and the skill set with basic technology hurting elderly when 
they want to come back into the workforce?
    Dr. Gonzales. I think we could all agree that we all have 
tech issues, right. We all have tech--whether it is with our TV 
or a computer or our phone, we run into them, and even when we 
attend conferences by Apple, they have tech issues.
    It is not necessarily an older adult issue per se. It is, 
you know--and I am so thrilled to that my other neighbor over 
there is doing incredible work around technology. Cognitive 
health for quite some time, neurologists thought that once your 
brain was fully developed at the age of 25, that is it.
    That is so bogus now. We know that cognitive plasticity 
occurs throughout the entire lifespan, and so, we need to build 
programs that are sensitive to where that individual is at, 
what experience they have had, and meet them where they are at, 
and I believe that is what SCSEP does in Michigan.
    They also do it in New York and New Mexico, Texas, other 
places. It is a really terrific program. I hope I answered your 
question----
    Senator Braun. You did, and you did it just right because 
it just went into the red zone. Thank you.
    The Chairman. Thank you, Senator Braun. We will turn next 
to Senator Ricketts.
    Senator Ricketts. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman, and 
thanks to all of our panelists here for testifying here today. 
Right now, the HELP Committee is considering the nomination of 
Julie Su to lead the U.S. Department of Labor.
    Like many of my colleagues, we are concerned about some of 
the policies and misguided policies she would implement that 
would crush the independent contractor gig economy as we know 
it, and we have talked about that a little bit.
    Many workers that are past or near traditional retirement 
age for a variety of reasons, whether it is financial need or 
the purpose they are seeking, are looking to work in the gig 
economy to give them more freedom and flexibility and find that 
fulfillment that we are talking about. Nebraska has an aging 
population.
    According to the last census, 16.4 percent of Nebraska's 
population is over the age of 65. Independent work makes up a 
main source of income opportunity for retired and older workers 
who want to transition into part time work.
    These workers include both independent contractors and gig 
workers. Bureau of Labor Statistics survey found that one out 
of every three independent contractors were 55 or older, while 
less than a quarter of workers in traditional employment were 
55 or older. People 55 or older make up 11 percent of the gig 
economy.
    Dr. Palagashvili, in your testimony, or you talked about 
the independent contract rule and I think talked about the 
Biden Administration and how it fails to consider older workers 
participating in the gig economy or utilizing part time work as 
independent contractors.
    If the Administration rule is finalized, what do you expect 
to be the long-term ramifications to the gig workers and older 
workers and people who want to be independent contractors?
    Dr. Palagashvili. Thank you for your question, Senator. It 
is a very important question. What we expect is that there will 
be fewer independent work opportunities for all Americans, but 
this will disproportionately harm older Americans because they 
tend to be in independent work opportunities, precisely for the 
reasons that we talked about earlier, where they may not one 
full time employment or are ready to transition out of the full 
time nine to five employment workforce, and so they seek these 
independent work opportunities specifically for those reasons.
    I also cited a recent economics survey that found that 60 
percent of non-working older Americans would be willing to work 
if there were flexible work arrangements, and that is precisely 
what these independent work opportunities provide for them.
    I know--because again, because independent work 
opportunities are a vital source of income for older Americans 
who cannot take on traditional employment, eliminating those 
independent work opportunities will disproportionately harm 
older workers.
    I would like to add that this is also at a time when 
inflation is high and traditional work opportunities, 
employment opportunities are likely to be scarcer, so it is 
unwise for the Department of Labor to also limit independent 
work opportunities, especially for older workers.
    Senator Ricketts. Talk a little bit about what is your--the 
aspects of the policies that you are most concerned about with 
regard to what the policy is? What are some of the things that 
they are going to be doing that is going to limit this?
    Dr. Palagashvili. The regulation puts a very strict 
definition of what it means to be an independent worker. Now, 
it doesn't mimic the ABC test of the California's AB5, which is 
very problematic as we all saw in the aftermath, but in the way 
that it downplays certain factors that the economic realities 
test and plays up other factors, it can functionally act like 
the ABC test from California's AB5.
    That is really problematic because it will mean that 
legitimate independent workers, self-employed individuals, and 
freelancers would have to be reclassified as employees, and we 
all know that not every independent work opportunity turns 
automatically into employment opportunities.
    Especially for older Americans who don't want the 
employment opportunity, this is eliminating an income source 
for them, and as we saw in the aftermath of California's AB5, 
and this is reported by news outlets like The New York Times 
and the L.A. Times, there were significant job losses across 
the entire State and especially harmed older workers.
    Senator Ricketts. Outside the Biden Administration's 
proposed independent contracts rule, what regulations or red 
tape can we cut at the Federal level to provide more 
flexibility and freedom to our older Americans who continue to 
want to contribute to our workforce?
    Dr. Palagashvili. I do think that the independent 
regulations around independent work is the most important, but 
there are also things that private employers could take as well 
by just allowing more flexible work arrangements and of these 
various opportunities to help older workers, you know, reenter 
the workforce and take on these job opportunities.
    Senator Ricketts. Is there anything specifically, though, 
that the Federal Government could do? I mean is there red tape 
at the Federal level besides the independent contractor rule 
the Biden Administration is proposing that--which is say, hey, 
here is another thing you should target when you are thinking 
about this. If you did this, it would really help our older----
    Dr. Palagashvili. Well so one problem, it is back to the 
independent contractor but not necessarily the Department of 
Labor, is that various different agencies across--so the 
various different agencies all have different rules for what it 
means to be an independent contractor and that creates a lot of 
confusion.
    One worker might be an independent contractor under one 
rule, but under one agency, but not under another agency, so I 
think it is important, and that is a great red tape to kind of 
have harmonization across agencies, perhaps adopting something 
like the IRS common law task across all agencies.
    Senator Ricketts. All right. Perfect. Thank you.
    Dr. Palagashvili. Thank you.
    The Chairman. Thanks very much, Senator Ricketts, and I 
will come back for some questions now that I have--and as I 
said, we are transitioning to other hearings today, so we may 
have to wrap up pretty soon.
    I wanted to go back to a question that Ms. Vanlandingham, 
you mentioned in your testimony about broadband, high speed 
internet. That access is becoming even more critical to the 
21st century workplace.
    We have all talked about it for years as a problem--or I 
should say the problem being lack of access to high-speed 
internet, so many examples in my home State of Pennsylvania. Is 
probably best encapsulated by a county commissioner who said to 
me on a phone call one day on one of those conference calls, he 
was almost screaming into the phone, Senator, kids can't do 
their homework, which kind of crystallized it for me.
    Obviously, we know the impact on small business, everything 
from running a small business in a small town or city or trying 
to operate a farm without high-speed internet. We just can't do 
it. It is the equivalent of electricity years ago, how people 
couldn't function without it.
    Everyone knows the problem. We have several Federal 
programs that invest dollars, but nothing on the scale that we 
are going to be able to invest through the Infrastructure 
Investment and Jobs Act. We also have some investments in my 
home State.
    I know a lot of other States will be following, investments 
from the American Rescue Plan legislation, just for broadband, 
just for high-speed internet, but the infrastructure dollars 
will be much, much greater, even though Pennsylvania has 
already received $200 million or will be receiving $200 million 
from the American Rescue Plan for high-speed internet.
    We know the scale of the problem. We know the--even the 
beginnings of significant investment to make a difference, but 
as someone who represents a State that has 67 counties, but 48 
are rural, I have a pretty good sense of some of the challenges 
the lack of high-speed internet presents to communities in our 
rural counties.
    Tell me a little more about, based on your experience in 
Michigan, what you are seeing, especially through the lens of 
or in the context of rural areas. How does that kind of better 
access to high-speed internet help support older workers and to 
keep them connected in a very competitive workplace and 
economy?
    Ms. Vanlandingham. Thank you for that, and I will echo that 
county commissioner and say Senator, older adults cannot 
compete in today's workforce without broadband access and 
technology training.
    What we see in Michigan, we have very rural communities as 
well, and our PSA, our planning and service area is three 
counties. One county, Berrien County, has an advanced strategic 
plan to really assess and understand and have a broadband 
access plan. Our other two more rural counties have none.
    In fact, when I tried to work remotely over the pandemic, I 
can't have video capabilities. I can't work in my own township, 
nor can anyone else, any other older adult living in my 
community, so without broadband access--in fact, 42 percent of 
older Americans lack broadband access.
    That is 22 million older adults, and those in rural 
communities are 1.6 times more likely not to have that access. 
They can't do job searches. They can't participate in many 
opportunities in a gig economy or in remote access, remote 
workforce opportunities. They can't benefit from the health, 
education, and nutrition support that is available online.
    Many of the things that we offer at our center are also 
offered remotely so that people can have access to that, but 
not if the broadband doesn't come to them. Also, they lack 
opportunities for caregiver support, for caregiver training, 
and telehealth and tele--and remote patient monitoring 
opportunities don't exist when you don't have broadband access.
    As my colleague indicated, this broadband access impacts 
the entire population from schoolchildren to older adults, and 
those two extremes are most--are disproportionately impacted.
    The Chairman. Thanks very much, and I have lots more 
questions, but not enough time, and we are probably going to 
have to wrap up, unless Senator Braun----
    Senator Braun. I am ready for a closing statement. Whatever 
you want.
    The Chairman. Okay. Senator, thanks so much. I will be 
brief in my closing, but I wanted to get--I will read a 
statement for the record just so we have it. We have both 
throughout the course of this hearing, heard a lot about 
expanding opportunities, but also knocking down or dismantling 
barriers for older workers that can result in a higher quality 
of life and increased ability to save for retirement.
    We heard from earlier in the testimony the Senior Community 
Service Employment Program, so-called SCSEP, that have set a 
foundation for older workers looking to stay engaged, learning 
new skills, and giving back to their community.
    Other supports provided through the Area Agencies on Aging 
and retirement advocacy groups like SOAR can go a long way to 
ensuring that seniors are set up to thrive in their later 
years. David McLimans, with his work in the steelworkers, 
shared his experience as a retired steelworker and a proud 
union steelworkers member, as well as his current work to 
protect older workers and their rights as a SOAR board member.
    We know that it is important that we better understand the 
state of the aging labor force and the challenges they face. 
That is why several members of the Senate have--and members of 
this Committee are sending a letter to the GAO to request a 
study on this issue.
    Their findings will help us better serve older workers in 
the future, and it is important that we continue to support 
older workers seeking justice for unjust terminations due to 
discrimination.
    I have the Protecting Older Workers Against Discrimination 
Act that will bolster protections for older workers and provide 
a level playing field for them. I will continue to work with 
our colleagues in the Senate on both sides of the aisle to 
advance that Bill to make sure that we are protecting those 
workers and setting them up for long term success.
    I will turn to Ranking Member Braun, if he has any closing 
remarks.
    Senator Braun. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Great conversation. 
I come from Main Street America, where most of my emphasis has 
been with small business, and you can see that so much of the 
reentry generally into something later in life is with the 
smallest business, maybe a gig economy job.
    I look at my wife and many people in our downtown Jasper, 
Indiana, where they are working into their late 60's and 70's 
and enjoy it, and then maybe have the next generation lined up 
to do it.
    We got to be careful that I have always felt there has been 
a distinction, and we hadn't discussed it really formally 
before, between whatever we do here that might be aimed at 
larger entities versus Main Street and small business. It is a 
significant difference in terms of how you have the tools to 
navigate through it.
    When you think about it, almost everything we have talked 
about today would be most likely reentering not into a Fortune 
500 company. I think they are wanting to scoot you out the door 
maybe earlier than many would like to leave it.
    I think it is important whatever we do in terms of 
legislation, that we don't make it more difficult for the 
reasons of economic necessity, and even better, that you don't 
want to jump into the rocking chair and you want to keep 
working as long as you can, and our policies are conducive to 
it, and to me, so often Government ends up doing stuff that 
doesn't aim in the right direction and it ends up making it 
worse than better, and my hope is that as we discuss this, we 
make it as easy as can be without the heavy hand of maybe 
Government for the elderly when they are willing and able to 
get back in and do what they want, not overburdened by 
Government interference and regulation. Thank you.
    The Chairman. Thank you, Senator Braun. I want to thank 
everyone for being here today. I wanted to mention as well, 
which I should have mentioned earlier, that several Senators 
who have appeared at the hearing either in person or in the 
case of Senator Blumenthal, virtually because of his recent 
injury.
    Senator Blumenthal, Senator Warnock and Senator Rick Scott 
all were here today at various times and not able to ask 
questions. I do want to thank again our witnesses, and we 
appreciate your time and traveling to get here, and we wish we 
had more time today, but you brought your experience and your 
expertise and your insights to this Committee, and we are 
grateful for that.
    If any Senators have additional questions for the witnesses 
or statements to be added, the hearing record will be kept open 
for seven days until next Thursday, April 27th. Thank you all 
for participating today. This concludes our hearing. Thanks.


      
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                      Prepared Witness Statements

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                        Questions for the Record

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                       Statements for the Record

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