[Senate Hearing 118-007]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]


                                                       S. Hrg. 118-007

                      STATE AND LOCAL PERSPECTIVES
                       ON ELECTION ADMINISTRATION

=======================================================================

                                HEARING

                               BEFORE THE

                 COMMITTEE ON RULES AND ADMINISTRATION
                          UNITED STATES SENATE

                    ONE HUNDRED EIGHTEENTH CONGRESS

                             FIRST SESSION

                               __________

                             MARCH 28, 2023

                               __________

    Printed for the use of the Committee on Rules and Administration
    
[GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]    


                  Available on http://www.govinfo.gov

                               __________

                                
                    U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE                    
51-765                     WASHINGTON : 2023                    
          
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                 COMMITTEE ON RULES AND ADMINISTRATION

                             FIRST SESSION

                  AMY KLOBUCHAR, Minnesota, Chairwoman

DIANNE FEINSTEIN, California         DEB FISCHER, Nebraska
CHARLES E. SCHUMER, New York         MITCH McCONNELL, Kentucky
MARK R. WARNER, Virginia             TED CRUZ, Texas
JEFF MERKLEY, Oregon                 SHELLEY MOORE CAPITO, West 
ALEX PADILLA, California                 Virginia
JON OSSOFF, Georgia                  ROGER WICKER, Mississippi
MICHAEL F. BENNET, Colorado          CINDY HYDE-SMITH, Mississippi
PETER WELCH, Vermont                 BILL HAGERTY, Tennessee
                                     KATIE BOYD BRITT, Alabama

                    Elizabeth Farrar, Staff Director
               Rachelle Graves, Republican Staff Director
                        
                        
                        C  O  N  T  E  N  T  S

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                                                                  Pages

                         Opening Statement of:

Hon. Amy Klobuchar, Chairwoman, a United States Senator from the 
  State of Minnesota.............................................     1
Hon. Deb Fischer, a United States Senator from the State of 
  Nebraska.......................................................     3
Hon. Maggie Toulouse Oliver, New Mexico Office of the Secretary 
  of State, Santa Fe, New Mexico.................................     6
Hon. Robert Evnen, Nebraska Office of the Secretary of State, 
  Lincoln, Nebraska..............................................     8
Howard Knapp, South Carolina State Election Commission, Columbia, 
  South Carolina.................................................     9
Derek Bowens, Durham County Board of Elections, Durham, North 
  Carolina.......................................................    11
Marcia Johnson, Lawyers' Committee for Civil Rights Under Law, 
  Washington, DC.................................................    13

                         Prepared Statement of:

Hon. Maggie Toulouse Oliver, New Mexico Office of the Secretary 
  of State, Santa Fe, New Mexico.................................    34
Hon. Robert Evnen, Nebraska Office of the Secretary of State, 
  Lincoln, Nebraska..............................................    39
Howard Knapp, South Carolina State Election Commission, Columbia, 
  South Carolina.................................................    44
Derek Bowens, Durham County Board of Elections, Durham, North 
  Carolina.......................................................    48
Marcia Johnson, Lawyers' Committee for Civil Rights Under Law, 
  Washington, DC.................................................    59

                            For the Record:

Report from Alliance for Securing Democracy at the German 
  Marshall Fund..................................................    79
Letter from the Southern Poverty Law Center Action Fund..........    92
Testimony of Justin F. Roebuck, Clerk of Ottawa County, Michigan.    99
Testimony of Brianna L. Lennon, County Clerk, Boone County, 
  Missouri.......................................................   102
Testimony of Adam Lioz, Senior Policy Counsel, NAACP Legal 
  Defense and Educational Fund, Inc..............................   104

                  Questions Submitted for the Record:

Hon. Amy Klobuchar, Chairwoman, a United States Senator from the 
  State of Minnesota to Honorable Maggie Toulouse Oliver, New 
  Mexico Office of the Secretary of State, Santa Fe, New Mexico..   180
Hon. Amy Klobuchar, Chairwoman, a United States Senator from the 
  State of Minnesota to Howard Knapp, South Carolina State 
  Election Commission, Columbia, South Carolina..................   181

 
        STATE AND LOCAL PERSPECTIVES ON ELECTION ADMINISTRATION

                              ----------                              


                        TUESDAY, MARCH 28, 2023

                               United States Senate
                      Committee on Rules and Administration
                                                     Washington, DC
    The Committee met, pursuant to notice, at 3:05 p.m., in 
Room 301, Russell Senate Office Building, Hon. Amy Klobuchar, 
Chairwoman of the Committee, presiding.
    Present: Senators Klobuchar, Fischer, Padilla, Bennet, 
Cruz, and Britt.

  OPENING STATEMENT OF HONORABLE AMY KLOBUCHAR, CHAIRWOMAN, A 
       UNITED STATES SENATOR FROM THE STATE OF MINNESOTA

    Chairwoman Klobuchar. Good afternoon. I call to order this 
hearing of the Rules Committee on State and Local Perspectives 
on Election Administration. I would like to thank Ranking 
Member Fischer, and our colleagues, and our witnesses for being 
here. The Rules Committee has a tradition of working together 
in a bipartisan way, and Senator Fischer and I have been 
continuing that tradition, including introducing a bill based 
on the top legislative recommendation of all six members of the 
Federal Election Commission.
    Today we are holding this important hearing on the work of 
state and local officials who run elections and ensure that 
voters have access to the ballot. Our witnesses, who I will 
introduce shortly, are New Mexico Secretary of State Maggie 
Toulouse Oliver; Derrick Bowens, who is the Director of 
Elections for Durham County, North Carolina; and Marcia 
Johnson, who is Co-Director of the Voting Rights Project at the 
Lawyers' Committee for Civil Rights Under the Law.
    We are also going to hear from witnesses who are going to 
be introduced by Senator Fischer. That is why I did them out of 
order. Did not forget you. Nebraska Secretary of State Robert 
Evnen, and Howard Knapp, who is the Executive Director of the 
South Carolina State Election Commission.
    I thank all of you for joining us today. State and local 
election officials across the country worked tirelessly to 
administer the 2022 midterm elections so that over 111 million 
Americans could cast their ballots. The Department of Homeland 
Security has confirmed the security of recent elections under 
Republican and Democratic administrations alike. Those on the 
front lines of our democracy did the hard work to ensure that 
would happen.
    Today, we will hear from state and local election officials 
and an expert on voter protection about takeaways from the 2022 
elections and key issues for election administration moving 
forward.
    With the 2024 primary elections less than a year away, this 
is an important--I did that so everyone could take a deep 
breath--this is an important discussion as effective election 
administration takes dedicated planning and resources. One area 
of particular urgency that we will hear about today is the need 
to counter the barrage of threats and harassment targeting 
election workers from those seeking to undermine our democracy.
    According to a survey last year by the Brennan Center, 
nearly one in three local election officials are concerned 
about their safety because of their job, and nearly one in six 
have received threats.
    Adrian Fontes, the Arizona Secretary of State, told me that 
when he served as Maricopa County Recorder in 2020, his family 
had to leave their house for days because of death threats.
    Former Philadelphia City Commissioner Al Schmidt, a 
Republican who is now Pennsylvania's Chief Election Official, 
told this Committee at a bipartisan hearing last Congress that 
he received a message saying, ``tell the truth or your three 
kids will be fatally shot'', with the names of his 7 year old 
son and 11 and 14 year old daughters, their address, and photos 
of their house.
    State and local election officials from both parties 
testified at that hearing, including the Kentucky Secretary of 
State, about what is happening with election workers. We want 
people who are full-time election workers, but we also want 
volunteers. When this happens, you also lose volunteers.
    These dedicated public servants should be able to do their 
jobs without fear or intimidation, which is why I introduced 
comprehensive legislation to take this issue head on with many 
Senators, including Senators Feinstein, Warner, Merkley, 
Padilla, and Bennet, on this Committee. I hope that Senator 
Fischer and I will continue to work on a bipartisan basis when 
it comes to this really important issue.
    These threats are in part fueled by disinformation that 
allows lies that undermine our elections to go viral. We must 
tackle the root causes of disinformation that spreads online 
and the impact it has on our democracy. I have introduced 
legislation to do that with Senator Warner, and I think there 
are other things we should be doing with regard to these social 
media platforms and other things that have impacted the way 
people feel about our democracy, the way they feel about each 
other, the way the algorithms work, the way the competition 
policy has not been changed.
    I could go on and on, but I am going to stick to the matter 
at hand. In the face of these challenges, it is as important as 
ever that we continue to support election officials as they do 
their jobs to uphold our democracy.
    State and local governments need a steady and reliable 
stream of yes, state and local support, but also federal 
support to plan and keep pace and protect against foreign 
interference as technology evolves, as well as to recruit and 
train poll workers and protect election officials from threats.
    The investments we have made since 2018 have been 
important. Senator Blunt and I worked on this together. Senator 
Lankford and I worked on bills regarding foreign interference. 
All of this has helped ensure that recent elections were what 
the Department of Homeland Security said were the most secure 
in American history.
    That is thanks to all of you. But it is also thanks to all 
of our cyber experts who are looking out for issues. As we know 
there have been threats in the past but more must be done. I 
have introduced legislation, the Sustaining Our Democracy Act, 
to deliver critical resources to state and local governments 
for election administration, and the President's budget also 
includes a commitment to prioritize significant funding for 
elections to ensure their continued security and resilience.
    Finally, I want to note that in many states, voters 
continue to face laws that make it harder to vote. These laws 
impose restrictions on things like voting by mail, cut days 
from early voting, and getting rid of secure drop boxes for 
people to return their ballots. That is why many leaders 
support basic federal standards to make sure all Americans can 
cast their ballots in the way that works best for them, 
regardless of what zip code they live in.
    That is why I support the John R. Lewis Voting Rights 
Advancement Act to repair and restore the Voting Rights Act. I 
note that the majority of the Senate supports the Freedom to 
Vote Act, and while it is a Democratic bill, a number of 
Republicans have spoken in support of certain reforms in the 
bill, including one Republican witness we had in this very room 
who testified in support of these measures, who was a former 
Federal Election Commission Chairman.
    I want to thank our witnesses for all the work that you do 
every single day. I am so proud of our local election 
officials. I am proud of the fact that Minnesota always ranks 
number one, if not or at least near the top--I say just a 
challenge to our Secretaries of State--for voter turnout. A lot 
of it has to do with--actually, we have same day registration, 
which is kind of, it may be an old fashioned concept, but in 
states that are red or blue or purple, it has greatly increased 
turnout.
    We have good rules when it comes to mail-in balloting and 
early voting and the like. We have had both Democratic and 
Republican Governors and one very famous Independent that would 
be Governor Jesse Ventura, all with these laws in place. I 
think what it does is it makes people feel like they can 
participate.
    When they come up and say, I did not vote for you, but I 
like what you did on this, at least they voted and at least 
they care about our democracy, is what I always think. Maybe I 
will convince them next time.
    But I think having that kind of ease of voting is a big 
deal, and faith in our democracy, and makes people feel like 
they are part of the franchise, which is one of our--which 
should be our focus as elected representatives. With that, I 
will turn it over to my friend, Deb Fischer.

  OPENING STATEMENT OF HONORABLE DEB FISCHER, A UNITED STATES 
               SENATOR FROM THE SATE OF NEBRASKA

    Senator Fischer. Good afternoon. Thank you, Chairwoman 
Klobuchar, for holding this hearing, and thank you to our 
witnesses for joining us.
    Today, we gather to discuss one of the most fundamental 
aspects of our democracy, the administration of free and fair 
elections. Across the Nation, hardworking and dedicated state 
and local officials regularly address election administration 
challenges head on. Today's hearing provides an opportunity to 
hear from some of them, highlight their important work, and 
learn more about how they successfully administered the 2022 
elections.
    Under the Constitution, states have primary responsibility 
for the administration of elections. This is what our founding 
fathers intended. Our role in Congress is to support state and 
local election officials in this important work rather than 
burden them with a one size fits all Federalized takeover that 
is ill suited to the needs and priorities of various 
jurisdictions. In fact, the diversity of state run election 
procedures is part of what makes disrupting a nationwide 
election effectively impossible.
    Upending that system increases the risk of error and 
creates vulnerabilities. In recent years, new election 
administration challenges have presented themselves 
specifically regarding cyber-
security and threats to election integrity. Foreign and 
domestic adversaries have sought to disrupt our elections by 
attacking cyber and physical infrastructure. These same 
adversaries have sought to sow distrust in our elections and 
call the integrity of the democratic process into question.
    As these new issues arise, states are still tasked with the 
important work of recruiting, training, and retaining poll 
workers. This has become more difficult in recent years, as 
many of the most dedicated election workers and volunteers have 
retired.
    But while it is important to acknowledge that there were 
and are challenges to overcome, I believe that we should also 
take the time to recognize and celebrate the many successes 
that have been achieved in 2022. We saw marked improvements in 
election security.
    Many states took state steps to bolster their cybersecurity 
defenses and ensure the integrity of the voting process. This 
included everything from ensuring that voting machines provide 
a paper trail for every vote cast to conducting thorough audits 
and investigations to detect and prevent potential fraud.
    Today, this Committee has the opportunity to come together 
in a bipartisan manner and hear from witnesses regarding their 
successes during the 2022 election cycle and their tireless 
efforts to improve election integrity. I believe it is our duty 
to approach this issue with an open mind and a commitment to 
finding common ground.
    We may not always agree on the specifics of how our 
elections should be run, but I am confident that by working 
together in good faith, we can ensure that every eligible 
citizen can exercise his or her right to vote and that every 
eligible vote is counted timely and accurately.
    I am heartened by the progress states have made in recent 
years, and it is my sincere hope that we can work together to 
strengthen our election systems and foster public trust in the 
democratic process.
    I look forward to a productive and informative hearing, and 
to hearing from our expert witnesses today. Thank you.
    Chairwoman Klobuchar. Very good. Well, thank you very much, 
Senator Fischer. I am going to introduce, as I noted, three of 
our witnesses, and Senator Fischer will introduce the other 
ones.
    Our first witness is New Mexico Secretary of State Maggie 
Toulouse Oliver, as she has served as New Mexico's chief 
election official for six years and also has a decade of 
experience in local election administration as a county clerk. 
Previously, she served as President of the National Association 
of Secretaries of State. That is how I got to know her. 
Secretary Toulouse Oliver earned her bachelor's degree and 
master's degree from the University of New Mexico.
    After hearing from Secretary Evnen and Mr. Knapp, our next 
witness will be Derek Bowens, Director of Elections for Durham 
County, North Carolina since 2017.
    Mr. Bowens has over a decade of experience in local 
election administration, and he holds a bachelor's degree from 
the University of North Carolina. Our final witness is Marcia 
Johnson, Co-Director of the Voting Rights Project at the 
Lawyers' Committee for Civil Rights Under Law, which is the 
Nation's leading nonpartisan voter protection program.
    She has worked on the Lawyers' Committee's human rights 
initiatives and taught as an Adjunct Professor at the 
Georgetown University Law Center. Something my husband also 
does, by the way. She earned her bachelor's degree from 
Georgetown and her law degree from Villanova University. 
Senator Fischer will now introduce our other two witnesses and 
I will swear witnesses in.
    Senator Fischer. Again, I thank all of our witnesses for 
joining us today. We have with us Secretary of State Bob Evnen 
of the great State of Nebraska, and Mr. Howard Knapp, Executive 
Director of the South Carolina State Election Commission. 
Secretary Evnen has served as Nebraska's Secretary of State 
since 2019, where he has worked tirelessly to ensure that 
Nebraska's elections are safe and secure.
    Mr. Knapp has served as the Executive Director of the South 
Carolina State Election Commission since 2022, previously 
serving as the state's Interim Executive Director and Director 
of Voter Services. He also serves on the United States Election 
Assistance Commission Standards Board and has been nationally 
recognized and certified for his work in this space. Thank you 
both. We look forward to your testimony.
    Chairwoman Klobuchar. Okay, if the witnesses can now please 
stand and raise your right hand. Do you swear that the 
testimony you will give before the Committee shall be the 
truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you 
God?
    Ms. Toulouse Oliver. I do.
    Mr. Evnen. I do.
    Mr. Knapp. I do.
    Mr. Bowens. I do.
    Ms. Johnson. I do.
    Chairwoman Klobuchar. Thank you. We will now proceed to 
your testimony and recognize you each for a five minute 
statement, starting with Secretary Toulouse Oliver.

  OPENING STATEMENT OF HONORABLE MAGGIE TOULOUSE OLIVER, NEW 
 MEXICO OFFICE, OF THE SECRETARY OF STATE, SANTA FE, NEW MEXICO

    Ms. Toulouse Oliver. Thank you very much, Chairwoman 
Klobuchar, and Ranking Member Fischer, and Members, whoever 
they may be, for having us here today.
    I am very pleased to be here, along with my election 
official colleagues. I also just want to say I appreciated both 
of your opening remarks very much, and we appreciate the 
support that Congress gives us in the election community. Thank 
you for having me here today. My name is Maggie Toulouse 
Oliver.
    I am the New Mexico Secretary of State, and I appreciate 
the opportunity to be a part of this hearing as you gather 
state and local perspectives on election administration 
throughout the United States. The health of our democracy 
depends on informed discussions like this about the challenges 
and opportunities faced by election administrators across our 
country.
    My goal today is to provide you with insight into how 
election administrators are coping with the new voting and 
elections landscape, and to highlight some of the initiatives 
we are taking in my state to support the vital work of county 
clerks and their staff, poll workers, and the myriad of other 
election professionals who make our American democracy a model 
for the world.
    The rise of misinformation since 2020 has made the job of 
nonpartisan election administration much harder. When many 
members of the public are mistrustful about the integrity of 
our elections, election administrators then bear the associated 
burdens of frivolous lawsuits, excessively burdensome public 
information requests, disruptive voters and poll workers, and 
outright threats and harassment.
    One of the most important tactics to defend against the 
detrimental effects of election administration is simply 
putting good policies in place that are informed by election 
administrators themselves. Such policies can clarify existing 
laws or create new procedures that assist administrators in the 
execution of their duties. For example, during our latest 
Legislative Session in New Mexico, we passed a comprehensive 
election administration bill that provides needed policies for 
election administrators to efficiently and uniformly administer 
our elections.
    The bill's provisions were drafted in concert with the 
state's election administrators and stem from actual 
experiences those administrators navigated either during the 
last election cycle or are currently navigating in preparation 
for elections. We actually have statewide elections every year 
in our state.
    For this year, many county clerks have had trouble 
retaining or hiring poll workers because of the increased 
stress associated with being involved in elections, so we 
increased poll worker compensation. The bill mandates training 
for poll watchers and challengers with a curriculum developed 
by my office so these individuals and election administrators 
can gain a better understanding of the proper role of conduct 
of watchers and challengers at a polling place. One section 
clarifies procedures on public information requests, to protect 
the secrecy of the ballot, and information about our national 
critical infrastructure, but making sure that everything else 
remains public. This specific section was included after county 
clerks were inundated with requests for data and other 
information that clerks do not actually use for administrating 
elections.
    After an individual earlier this year, influenced by 
election misinformation allegedly orchestrated drive by 
shootings at the homes of six elected officials in New Mexico's 
biggest city, a provision was included in the bill that shields 
the home addresses of elected or appointed officials from 
public disclosure at their discretion.
    Election administrators need policy tools like some of the 
ones I have just highlighted in order to maintain fair and 
efficient elections that are above the fray of misinformation 
and partisan meddling. Of course, every jurisdiction has their 
own decisions to make about which policies best serve their 
communities. But I believe our policies in New Mexico are a 
great model for many election administrators to mirror.
    In addition to tailoring specific state policies that 
assist administrators as they conduct elections, funding for 
elections is key. Sufficient funding for election 
administration, however, remains an obstacle for many election 
offices around the country. The Federal Government can help 
states and their election administrators by providing 
consistent funding streams.
    These funds can be used to assist us in fulfilling our 
duties under Federal law to supplement costs associated with 
new trainings and, or physical security upgrades or strengthen 
cybersecurity defenses.
    Without more consistent Federal funding to states for 
elections, administrators may have to contend with outdated 
equipment and technology, persistent staffing issues, and other 
circumstances that can inhibit the efficient conduct of 
elections. More consistent Federal funding for elections allows 
election administrators to better plan for short, medium, and 
long term goals that benefit all voters.
    The Federal Government has an important role to play in 
assisting states with the conduct of elections. Though each 
state is different with different needs, and states should 
continue to be the ultimate authority on running their own 
elections, but collaboration is key, and an entity like the 
United States Election Assistance Commission, the EAC, provides 
a great example of how the Federal Government can help states 
with election related needs.
    Additionally, congressional funding of entities like the 
Cyber-
security and Infrastructure Security Agency, CISA, is vital 
because states and localities simply do not have the resources 
to defend against the modern threat landscape solely on our 
own.
    Though the current political environment, coupled with the 
recent rash of election administration, makes the likelihood of 
enacting Federal minimum standards for voter access unlikely, I 
want to say that I do support minimum guarantees of access to 
early and absentee voting so that there is more equity across 
the board for voters in Federal elections across the country.
    Some Federal involvement in elections will always be 
crucial for security and for the policy entrepreneurship that 
comes from such collaboration. Thank you again for this 
opportunity today to testify on these crucial matters on behalf 
of both New Mexico and our states' election administrators.
    [The prepared statement of Ms. Toulouse Oliver was 
submitted for the record.]
    Chairwoman Klobuchar. Very good. Thank you, Secretary. 
Secretary Evnen.

OPENING STATEMENT OF HONORABLE ROBERT EVNEN, NEBRASKA OFFICE OF 
           THE SECRETARY OF STATE, LINCOLN, NEBRASKA

    Mr. Evnen. Good afternoon, Chairwoman Klobuchar, Ranking 
Member Fischer. My name is Bob Evnen, and I have the honor and 
privilege of serving as Nebraska's 27th Secretary of State. 
This afternoon, I would like to talk about takeaways, some nuts 
and bolts, from Nebraska's 2022 elections. I would like to 
discuss Nebraska's newly adopted state Constitutional voter ID 
requirement and security issues, including cybersecurity.
    I would like to conclude with a thought about Federal 
versus state control of elections. Nebraska's 2022 elections 
were conducted efficiently, accurately, securely, and in 
accordance with law.
    As we have done for some time, within approximately one 
month before the primary and general elections, every single 
ballot tabulation machine in the state was tested three times 
for accuracy by running three separate test decks of ballots 
through each machine. In addition to these three tests, two 
mock elections were held to further check the accuracy of our 
ballot tabulators and to check the accuracy of the computers 
that compile the results and our Election night reporting 
website.
    Then, after each election, we hand count the results. We do 
this after the election, we hand count the results of certain 
races in 2 or 3 percent of our precincts statewide. After the 
2022 general election, we expanded this audit to include 10 
percent of our precincts statewide. We checked at least one 
precinct in each of our 93 counties. In all our counties, we 
hand counted a total of 48,292 ballots.
    The counting was conducted by election boards in those 
counties composed of representatives of both major national 
parties. In total, out of the more than 48,000 ballots hand 
counted, discrepancies were noted on 11 ballots. That is a 
discrepancy rate of 23 thousandths of 1 percent. Of the 11 
ballots where there were discrepancies, 5 were ballots that 
were marked too lightly for the machine to read the ballot, and 
the other 6 were ballots that were misfiled or misplaced. We 
did another check after the election. We found that 682,745 
voters across the state were shown on the voter rolls as having 
cast a ballot.
    Those records are kept by our county election officials. We 
compared that with the number of ballots that were tabulated. 
There was a net variance of 29 ballots. That is a variance rate 
of 4 thousandths of 1 percent. To the best of my knowledge, 
none of the variance was attributable to machine error. In 
Nebraska, in my view, our election officials across the state 
did an exemplary job of conducting an accurate and secure 
election.
    I would like to take this opportunity this afternoon to 
express my thanks and gratitude to our friends and neighbors 
across the State of Nebraska who are the election officials who 
conducted an outstanding election for our citizens in 2022. Now 
in that election, in November 2022, Nebraska voters 
overwhelmingly enacted an amendment to our state Constitution 
requiring the presentation of a photo ID before casting a 
ballot.
    I have supported voter ID for many years. Our state 
legislature is now working on legislation to implement this new 
voter ID requirement. My office estimates that between 97 and 
98 percent of registered voters in our state already have state 
issued photo IDs.
    I am confident that effective legislation will be passed 
that will carry out Nebraska's new voter ID Constitutional 
requirement without disenfranchising any legitimate voter. I am 
working closely with the legislature to ensure that we have 
effective--an effective voter ID requirement that is consistent 
with the rights of voters.
    In terms of the elections process itself in my view, one of 
the greatest challenges to election security grows out of the 
increasing availability of early voting. The challenges that 
come with early voting include the opportunity to pressure or 
intimidate voters and the possibility of vote buying efforts.
    The potential for this sort of fraud is intensifying as 
these early voting methods become more ubiquitous. In my view, 
we ought to focus our attention on these matters. Turning 
briefly to cybersecurity, the elections division of the 
Nebraska Secretary of State's Office was awarded the 2019 
Election Innovation Award from the National Association of 
State Elections Directors.
    We received this award for our program of collaboration 
between our office, our voter registration data base vendor, 
the Department of Homeland Security, and EI-ISAC, which was 
referenced by Secretary to Toulouse Oliver.
    Through this collaboration organized by our office, we were 
able to place an Albert networking monitor on the server of our 
elections vendor to detect intrusion on our voter registration 
system.
    Finally, permit me to observe that under the United States 
Constitution, elections have been left at the sound discretion 
of the State Legislatures.
    I am speaking from my perspective as the Secretary of State 
of Nebraska. The states ought to remain responsible for the 
conduct of elections. Issues affecting the conduct of elections 
can be and ought to be resolved by the State Legislatures. 
Thank you, Senators, for your time and attention this 
afternoon.
    [The prepared statement of Mr. Evnen was submitted for the 
record.]
    Chairwoman Klobuchar. Very good. Thank you very much. Next 
up, Mr. Knapp.

    OPENING STATEMENT OF HOWARD KNAPP, SOUTH CAROLINA STATE 
         ELECTION COMMISSION, COLUMBIA, SOUTH CAROLINA

    Mr. Knapp. Chairwoman Klobuchar, Ranking Member Fischer, 
and Members of the Committee, I am honored to be here today to 
present the South Carolina perspective on election 
administration.
    Elections play a vital role in a free and fair society and 
are the cornerstone of our Republic. There is an important link 
between the trust in our election process and the confidence 
our citizens place in all Government functions. This is why 
South Carolina has been keeping our elections accurate, secure, 
and accessible, and that is one of our state's top priorities.
    In January 2021, I was appointed Executive Director of the 
South Carolina State Election Commission. The Commission is a 
five member bipartisan committee appointed by the Governor to 
oversee election operations. Since my appointment and 
subsequent confirmation by the South Carolina Senate, I have 
focused on improving and protecting the security and resilience 
of our state's election infrastructure while implementing the 
reforms needed to move South Carolina forward.
    We have long been a national leader in elections. South 
Carolina was the first state to have a statewide voter 
registration system and the first to make our voter 
registration application available on the internet.
    Last year, we built upon that tradition with the 
implementation of Act 150 of 2022, which was passed unanimously 
by the South Carolina General Assembly. This legislation 
established no excuse early voting, two weeks prior to an 
election, amended absentee ballot processes, and increased 
election crime penalties.
    Any registered South Carolina voter can now visit early 
voting locations and vote like they would at their polling 
place on Election Day, replacing the need for in-person 
absentee voting. While the process to implement early voting 
has taken other states more than six months, we managed to do 
it in only ten days, just in time for the statewide primaries 
in June.
    As a result, early voting was used for the first time in 
the state's history, and more than 100,000 voters chose to vote 
early throughout the state. Through our hard work, the general 
election was even more successful than the primaries.
    Over half of all registered voters voted, and almost half 
of all votes cast were cast before the general election, either 
via early voting or absentee. We credit this remarkable turnout 
during early voting and on Election Day to robust education 
campaign that informed the public of the new election laws and 
changes through frequent statewide messaging to reach every 
eligible voter.
    In a statewide survey conducted after the passage of Act 
150, 85 percent of South Carolina voters indicated they felt 
confident in the accuracy of South Carolina elections, compared 
with only 66 percent in those carried out nationally. Ninety-
seven percent of South Carolina voters thought registering to 
vote was easy and 93 percent felt their local polling place was 
organized and well run.
    The success of implementing Act 150 is even more astounding 
when considering we were simultaneously implementing state and 
local redistricting plans. In addition, to implementing Act 150 
and redistricting, the Commission and county offices also had 
to carry out their regular duties ahead of, during, and after 
the election.
    This process starts accurately--starts with accurately 
maintaining our list of registered voters. When a person 
registers to vote, the person remains registered until they are 
disqualified or pass away.
    Additionally, confirmation cards requesting voters to 
confirm the registration status are mailed to voters who have 
not voted or updated their information in the last two general 
election cycles. Notices are sent to voters when they are made 
inactive, giving voters a second chance to let us know if the 
removal was an error.
    This process not only removes disqualified voters, but also 
protects qualified voters from wrongful removal. If there is 
any question about a voter's qualifications to vote, the voter 
can always cast a provisional ballot.
    To keep our elections secure we have a--we have developed 
an unprecedented partnership of state, federal, and private 
cyber-
security, law enforcement, and intelligence entities. Together, 
we protect the security of our elections and investigate 
misconduct.
    After election night and before the certification of state 
and federal elections, South Carolina requires hand count 
audits to be conducted in every county. We also conduct 
independent results verification audits, which digitally 
tabulate every ballot cast in an election to ensure every vote 
was counted as intended by the voter.
    Recently, I established the agency's first audit division. 
This division is tasked with conducting county compliance 
audits in addition to overseeing the aforementioned post-
election audits. These compliance audits will ensure that 
county election offices follow Federal law, state law, and the 
agency's statewide election policies and procedures to ensure 
every voter and every candidate is treated the same.
    South Carolina is set to hold the Nation's first 
Presidential primary in 2024. It will continue to be a national 
model and leader in election administration, and we remain 
committed to being transparent with the public at every turn.
    We stand ready to assist Congress as it contemplates 
national reform efforts. South Carolina's election success can 
serve as a framework for other states as they look to improve 
upon the cornerstone of American democracy and instill greater 
trust in the outcome of our elections. Thank you.
    [The prepared statement of Mr. Knapp was submitted for the 
record.]
    Chairwoman Klobuchar. Thank you very much. Next up, Mr. 
Bowens.

   OPENING STATEMENT OF DEREK BOWENS, DURHAM COUNTY BOARD OF 
               ELECTIONS, DURHAM, NORTH CAROLINA

    Mr. Bowens. Thank you, Chairwoman Klobuchar, Ranking Member 
Fischer, and distinguished Members of the Committee on Rules 
and Administration of the United States Senate. I am honored to 
appear before you to talk about the administration of elections 
in Durham County, North Carolina, both in general and during 
the 2022 midterm elections.
    I currently serve as the nonpartisan Elections Director for 
Durham County, North Carolina. In this position, I have 
administered many local, state, and federal elections. I have 
more than a decade of local election administration experience 
and my teams have won multiple awards from the National 
Association of Counties and the United States Election 
Assistance Commission for innovation in election 
administration.
    I am privileged to have two of my dedicated team members 
with me today, Deborah Hart and Rebecca Troedsson. I must also 
speak to the hard work of my colleagues and the other 99 
counties in North Carolina, many of which are participating in 
a director's association conference to further advance their 
knowledge in election administration and security.
    The county that I serve, Durham County, has over 320,000 
residents making us the sixth largest of North Carolina's 100 
counties. We have approximately 230,000 of North Carolina's 7.2 
million registered voters.
    We are proud to have two nationally recognized institutions 
of higher learning, Duke University and North Carolina Central 
University, in addition to our wonderful technical and 
community college system. Also, most of the Research Triangle 
Park, a hub of global science and technology firms, Government 
agencies, and academic institutions, is in Durham County. 
County Commissioners fund the county boards of elections in 
North Carolina.
    However, these local election offices, under the general 
supervision of the State Board of Elections, are responsible 
for administering elections in their respective counties. My 
position is nominated by the county boards of elections and 
confirmed by the Executive Director of the State Board of 
Elections.
    Election Administration in Durham County is administrated 
in a manner that promotes free, fair, transparent, and secure 
elections. There are several processes and checks and balances 
which work together throughout the election cycle that result 
in trustworthy elections.
    In my testimony today, I want to stress that I am a 
nonpartisan public servant who believes strongly in the promise 
of democracy and in the preservation of the core tenets of our 
Democratic Republic. I take this responsibility very seriously 
and carry out my duties impartially without regard to partisan 
preferences or affiliations.
    I am committed to developing and carrying out sound 
processes according to state and federal law, to give our 
citizens faith and confidence in the outcome of every Durham 
County election. Every day I am mindful that less than 60 years 
ago people who look like me could not execute a basic function 
guaranteed under our Constitution without hardship and 
restriction.
    This became more real to me when I was verbally harassed by 
being called the N-word during a virtual public meeting while I 
was carrying out my duties as the Director of Elections during 
the 2020 general election.
    As such, it is an honor to equitably serve all citizens in 
Durham County as the Director of Elections and ensure that 
elections conducted under my purview are free, fair, and 
secure. I look forward to sharing my experiences as an election 
administrator in Durham County, North Carolina.
    I hope I have the opportunity to highlight how we conduct 
free, fair, and secure elections, discuss my experiences with 
the 2022 midterm election, provide my thoughts on election 
funding, and share the work of the Committee for Safe and 
Secure Elections, a bipartisan organization of which I am a 
member, and was established to address the recent threats, 
harassment, violence, and intimidation directed at local and 
state election officials in this country.
    Again, thank you for the opportunity to speak with you 
today, and I look forward to your questions.
    [The prepared statement of Mr. Bowens was submitted for the 
record.]
    Chairwoman Klobuchar. Thank you very much, Mr. Bowens. Just 
so you know, Senator Fischer, we have a vote. She is voting and 
then I will go vote. She has left you, Secretary Evnen, with 
me.
    You know, I was showing her the--I was showing her the past 
records of the Gophers versus the Cornhuskers. Just so you 
know, the Gophers came out ahead in the deal. Marcia Johnson 
and I apologize for saying your first name wrong, so I will try 
to correct that throughout this hearing. Ms. Johnson, thank 
you.

  OPENING STATEMENT OF MARCIA JOHNSON, LAWYERS' COMMITTEE FOR 
             CIVIL RIGHTS UNDER LAW, WASHINGTON, DC

    Ms. Johnson. Chairwoman Klobuchar, Ranking Member Fischer, 
and Members of the United States Senate Committee on Rules and 
Administration, my name is Marcia Johnson, and I serve as the 
Co-Director of the Voting Rights Project at the Lawyers' 
Committee for Civil Rights under Law. Thank you for the 
opportunity to testify today on state and local perspectives on 
election administration.
    The Lawyers' Committee was founded in 1963 by President 
John F. Kennedy's request. We use legal advocacy to achieve 
racial justice and make the promises of our democracy real for 
black people and other people of color. As part of this vital 
work, we convened the Election Protection Coalition, which is 
made up of nearly 400 national, state, and local partners. We 
also administer the 866-OUR-VOTE election protection Hotline, 
which provides comprehensive nonpartisan assistance at all 
stages of the voting process to any American who needs it.
    I have been with the Lawyers' Committee for 19 years, since 
2004, when I worked on the first election protection program 
during a Presidential election.
    In recent years, I have seen significant changes in the 
ways that Americans vote. For example, in 2018, nearly 50 
percent of the calls to the 866-OUR-VOTE hotline were placed on 
Election Day. Yet in 2022, only around 20 percent of the calls 
we received during the election period were placed on Election 
Day.
    The timing of these calls reflect the trend of more voters 
choosing to vote before Election Day, either by mail or early 
in-person. Election officials and administrators should be 
aware of these trends so that their jurisdictions have the 
resources to ensure access to the vote throughout the entire 
voting cycle.
    The types of calls to the election protection hotline 
include: reports of intimidation and or aggressive 
electioneering, problems with polling place access or ballots, 
problems with voter ID and registration, problems with mail-in 
and absentee ballots, and questions or information requests. 
One of the disturbing trends we saw in 2022 was voter 
intimidation around ballot drop boxes.
    In Arizona a Federal judge had to stop a coordinated group 
of men from openly carrying firearms and wearing body armor and 
masks to hide their faces while following, yelling at, and 
recording voters at ballot drop boxes. One voter wrote into the 
Arizona Secretary of State's Office saying, ``I have never been 
more intimidated in my life trying to vote, and I am very 
worried for my safety.''
    This disturbing and fairly new trend proves two things. 
First, election myths and disinformation have significant 
consequences. When election myths and disinformation about 
election security are encouraged to flow freely on voters' 
social media feeds, it can encourage bad actors to create new 
and at times terrifying schemes to intimidate voters, 
particularly voters of color.
    Second, as the ways Americans vote evolve, so do the 
methods of discrimination and intimidation. After the Supreme 
Court's decision in Shelby County vs. Holder weakening the 
Voting Rights Act, the late great Congressman John Lewis wrote, 
I disagree that because the incidence of voter discrimination 
is not as pervasive, widespread, or rampant as it was in 1965 
that the contemporary problems are not a valid basis for 
scrutiny.
    In a democracy, one act of voter discrimination should be 
too much. Following the record turnout in the 2020 Presidential 
election, something that all Americans, no matter their 
political affiliation, should applaud, too many states have 
passed laws that unduly restrict the very voting methods that 
contributed to that record turnout.
    In order for this country to live up to its democratic 
ideals of equality for all, this Congress needs to enact 
baseline Federal voting standards. Congressional action is 
necessary to prevent the backsliding of voting rights for many 
Americans, especially black voters and voters of color. I look 
forward to sharing more about what we found in 2022 elections. 
Thank you.
    [The prepared statement of Ms. Johnson was submitted for 
the record.]
    Chairwoman Klobuchar. Very good. I appreciate all of you. 
We are going to have a number of our colleagues joining us 
shortly that were at the vote. I am going to get started. As we 
look back first at the 2022 election, I guess I will ask all of 
you this, in your own state, which is what I believe you can 
address. Secretary Toulouse Oliver, do you believe that it was 
a secure election in 2022?
    Ms. Toulouse Oliver. Madam Chair. Yes, absolutely it was.
    Chairwoman Klobuchar. Okay, very good. Secretary Evnen.
    Mr. Evnen. Yes, Madam Chairwoman. In Nebraska, we had a 
secure and accurate election.
    Chairwoman Klobuchar. I appreciated those numbers that you 
put out there as well in your studies. Thank you. Mr. Knapp, 
South Carolina. Been in your state a few times for some reason. 
But please let me know if you believe it was a secure election.
    Mr. Knapp. Yes.
    Chairwoman Klobuchar. Okay. Very good. Mr. Bowens in North 
Carolina.
    Mr. Bowens. Yes.
    Chairwoman Klobuchar. Okay. Very good. Ms. Johnson, just 
what you saw across the country when it came to election 
security?
    Ms. Johnson. Yes.
    Chairwoman Klobuchar. Okay. Very good. Thank you. Maybe I 
will start with you, Secretary Toulouse Oliver. What major 
issues did you see election officials in your state facing in 
2022? Then get a little--dig deeper on some of the things you 
identified.
    You said you listened to everyone and then came up with 
ideas for change. I know Secretary Simon in Minnesota--as I 
know we have had a very good history of elections in our state 
in terms of turnout--he still found things he could do to 
improve things and has introduced legislation and the like. Why 
don't you talk about--and already passed some things--what you 
see went well, what you wanted to improve out of 2022.
    Ms. Toulouse Oliver. Thank you, Madam Chair. I think, you 
know, I do not think I would be remiss on speaking on behalf of 
all of my colleagues here when I say that, you know, when it 
comes to election administration, there is literally always 
room for improvement, no matter how successful an election we 
conduct, no matter how robust the participation, how well the 
policies and procedures were implemented, there is always room 
to make it better.
    That is actually one of the beautiful things about the work 
that we do, especially as our society and our democracy evolve 
over time, looking at ways to improve the process, make it more 
secure and more accessible, is really important.
    In my state, a couple of the challenges that we really 
sought to address in this most recent Legislative Session in 
our state, in particular the, what really is effectively the 
weaponization of public records request. As several of the 
witnesses here today mentioned, you know, myths and 
disinformation has generated a lot of threatening and harassing 
activity. Some of them, you know, are outright threats of 
violence, that I think probably all of us have had to deal with 
in some form or fashion.
    But some of them come in the form of--you know, we have in 
my state, 33 counties, so not nearly as many as most of the 
folks up here. Some of our election offices are as small as two 
people, right. Two full-time employees.
    When they are being bombarded with literally hundreds of 
requests for thousands of documents, many of which are not 
actually relevant to the conduct of elections or to kind of, 
you know, getting to the place where the interested party wants 
to go, that is really challenging.
    We look to try to make sure how do we maintain documents, 
access to public documents, but let's make sure we are 
protecting the privacy of the voter or our critical national 
infrastructure, things like that as well. Last but not least, I 
will just mention that we did pass increased penalties for 
threats of violence and harassment toward election officials in 
particular.
    That is a piece of legislation that I think is going to 
really help us moving forward with the not only the sense of 
safety and security of our election administrators, but also in 
terms of that challenging issue that we are seeing with regard 
to hiring, retaining, and training our poll officials.
    Chairwoman Klobuchar. A good segue for you, Secretary 
Evnen. With your experience, could you talk about retaining 
election work force, as you know, you have officials choosing 
to retire or leave.
    There are issues as we--I know you surveyed and I mentioned 
the Brennan Center, and in some states more than others, where 
people are concerned about their safety because of threats or 
they do not want to be on the front line like that. Could you 
talk about the professional pathway to becoming an election 
official and just what recommendations you have when it comes 
to retaining election officials? Really both--we have the 
professional ones, and then of course, we have volunteers.
    Mr. Evnen. Attracting and retaining election officials. 
There are county clerks in many of Nebraska's counties. It is 
our county clerks who serve as our election commissioners as 
well. Some of our larger counties have dedicated election 
commissioners. There is certainly a heightened interest in 
elections.
    That heightened interest extends to the county level. There 
are two things that I think are helpful in my state. One is 
when I have the opportunity and when the chief deputy--when the 
deputy of elections has the opportunity to go out and speak, we 
find that when people become better informed about election 
systems, the elections process, that they leave with greater 
satisfaction.
    We also try to involve people in it. That is, we encourage 
people to become poll workers. We encourage people to become 
observers on Election Day. What we find is that as they become 
more familiar with the process itself, their confidence in the 
integrity of the process grows.
    The other observation I would make in response to your 
question, Senator, is that we had very good elections in 
Nebraska, and I am bragging on my state, Senator. But it is, I 
am not bragging on myself, because it is the people in those 93 
counties who made that happen.
    I think it is very important, and I did so in my remarks, I 
think it is very important that we recognize their work and 
that we express appreciation and gratitude to them for it. That 
is something that I have been doing and that others have been 
doing as well that I believe is helpful to encourage our 
election officials.
    Chairwoman Klobuchar. Exactly. I think that kind of--some 
of that is defending them. I would say if there is, you know, 
attacks from people who are misinformed, some of it is just 
lifting them up for what they are doing because it is such an 
important part of our democracy. They are truly on the front 
lines when people go and vote. In your absence, Senator 
Fischer, I did bring up the Gophers, Cornhuskers record. Just I 
wanted to have full disclosure.
    Okay, I once called her from a Gophers game when the 
Gophers beat Nebraska, which was a surprise. I said, I thought 
it was funny because I know how important, and she said, it is 
not funny at all. I was still at the stadium.
    She said, we could talk about it later. Okay, on that note, 
Mr. Knapp, if you want to talk a little bit just about, I 
raised this issue I have worked with Senator Graham of your 
state on disclosures on an election bill we did together, on 
election ads on that came about because of some of the foreign 
purchases of ads during one election.
    We have worked on social media platforms and how we police 
this--and I know this was not in your testimony. I was just 
thinking of Senator Graham's willingness to work on some of 
these issues.
    Could you talk a bit about how you deal with that with 
the--and I am not getting, I do not want to get into the 
political realm about it, I am just talking about making sure 
that your citizens are informed about what is going on with 
elections when they are bombarded with things that sometimes 
are not true, even for the administration of elections, and how 
and when they vote. Mr. Knapp.
    Mr. Knapp. That is a fantastic question because it gives me 
an opportunity. As Secretary Evnen said, one of the weapons we 
have is to combat the misinformation with true information 
about what is going on with elections.
    Shortly after the 2020 election, my agency published this 
on our website, basically South Carolina's elections A to Z, 
and it talks about everything about how we keep the voter lists 
as accurate as possible, how our voting machines work, how we 
do audits. This is for--it was written so it could be 
understandable to just about anybody.
    This is from us. We also just this year started publishing 
an annual report to our General Assembly. I mean, that is the 
audience for this, for anybody. It talks about what have we 
done this last year as an agency to administer our elections in 
our state. The reality is there is a segment of the population 
that is not going to believe anything we say, no matter what we 
say.
    That is not who I am speaking to. I am speaking to the 
other 90 percent of the population that all they hear is the 
screaming and the misinformation. You know, I get it. 
Questioning Government is an American pastime and has been 
for--since the beginning. But at some point, Americans have to 
decide, do you believe the election officials or not?
    This is our best shot at trying to be as transparent as 
possible. That is really something I have tried to hone in on 
during my tenure is transparency.
    Chairwoman Klobuchar. Okay. Thank you. I really want to ask 
Mr. Bowens, Ms. Johnson a question. I am going to do that on my 
second round here because my colleagues are waiting. Before I 
go vote and turn this over briefly to Senator Fischer, I would 
like to ask unanimous consent to enter the following documents 
into the record.
    A new report by two nonpartisan groups, Issue One and the 
Alliance for Securing Democracy at the German Marshall Fund, 
with 13 recommendations to improve election administration, 
including the reforms in the Election Worker Protection Act 
that I mentioned that I have introduced.
    A letter from the Southern Poverty Law Center Action Fund 
and statements for the record from a bipartisan pair of county 
clerks about the challenges they face when running elections.
    Justin Roebuck, the Clerk and Register of Deeds for Ottawa 
County, Michigan, who is a Republican, and Brianna Lennon, 
County Clerk for Boone County, Missouri, who is a Democrat. 
Without objection, these documents will be entered into the 
record. So entered.
    [The information referred to was submitted for the record.]
    Chairwoman Klobuchar. Senator Fischer.
    Senator Fischer. Thank you, Chairwoman Klobuchar. Again, 
thank you to our witnesses. I have a question to address to 
Secretary Toulouse Oliver, Secretary Evnen, and Mr. Knapp. In 
in recent years, election officials nationwide have faced an 
increasing number of cybersecurity threats from sophisticated 
and also very malicious actors.
    Specifically, during the 2022 election cycle, both Illinois 
and Mississippi experienced cyberattacks on their public 
election websites, which provide voters with that important 
information, such as precinct locations.
    While these attacks did not compromise voting systems 
themselves, this issue remains a serious and ongoing challenge. 
If you could tell me, have your respective jurisdictions 
experienced cybersecurity incidents or threats, and what have 
your officers done that ensure that your state's voting systems 
and your elections systems are secure? Secretary Toulouse 
Oliver, please.
    Ms. Toulouse Oliver. Thank you very much, Ranking Member, 
for the question. I think it is unfortunately safe to say that 
to one degree or another, every election jurisdictions in the 
country, certainly every statewide jurisdiction, has received 
or has been the target of attacks or potential attacks.
    We know that there is constant, you know, scanning of 
sites, attempts, phishing attempts. You know, I personally I 
joked with my staff one time that I personally thwarted the 
Russians because there was a phishing email that looked 
suspicious and I reported it and it followed the path through, 
through the ISAC and up to CISA, and it was, you know, 
identified as a foreign source phishing attempt.
    The reality is that this is a threat that we are all 
dealing with all day, every day, and even the smallest 
jurisdiction in the country has the potential to be vulnerable 
to such threats. In my state, and I will be as brief as 
possible, but of course, one of the first things we did was 
create a robust partnership with in particular CISA to utilize 
all the tools that they have available to us as a state 
jurisdiction and to push down to our local jurisdictions, to 
both look for any potential vulnerabilities, to get advice and 
information about how to patch those up.
    As Secretary Evnen mentioned, we also have Albert sensors 
installed on our systems so that we are looking for odd 
patterns of internet traffic behavior coming into our systems 
so that we can be aware that maybe something is going on.
    We have created a very robust cybersecurity and really 
generally an election security program in my office that we 
recently took from just being a program initiative that I 
created to now being required by New Mexico State law moving 
forward, that there is always going to be such a program in my 
office.
    The point is really to take that the resources and tools 
that we receive from the Federal Government and from our 
private partners and be able to make sure that those are all 
available downward to every local election jurisdiction across 
the state.
    Senator Fischer. Thank you. Secretary Evnen.
    Mr. Evnen. Thank you, Senator. We are fortunate in 
Nebraska, we have not had any cybersecurity incidents in 
Nebraska. Nebraska was the first state to place an Albert 
monitor--this is a detection intrusion monitor system on the 
services--on the servers of a private vendor for our statewide 
voter registration system.
    That, by the way, has now been replicated in seven other 
states. In terms of our ballot tabulation machines, the 
computers that compile the results, these are air gapped. They 
are not connected to the internet, for any purpose at any time.
    We have also placed additional Albert monitors in strategic 
locations throughout our state. Since 2018, all of our state's 
vendors that are part of our elections infrastructure have and 
continue to work with the Department of Homeland Security, in 
particular the offices of cyber hygiene and physical security 
for best practices.
    Those are not offices, those are our principles and 
profiles, cyber hygiene and physical security, best practices. 
All 93 counties in our state are members of the Elections, 
Infrastructure, Information Sharing and Analysis Center. This 
is EI-ISAC. All 93 counties are members, and that is also a 
very valuable resource to keep up with the latest threats and 
the best practices.
    Senator Fischer. Mr. Knapp, if you could answer that. But 
also, you had a lot of experience in dealing with that as 
director of voter services. You are responsible for information 
technology, cyber-
security, in support of statewide voting systems. How did that 
experience--I guess, did it shape your approach to 
cybersecurity a little differently than the Secretaries, or do 
you have the same concerns?
    Mr. Knapp. I have the exact same concern. Secretary Evnen 
and I have the exact same voting system, which is not connected 
to the internet, so that is not a concern. But the I will say 
South Carolina, the state, my agency, has not been a victim of 
a cyber incident, luckily.
    We have all the resources we could ever need with Homeland 
Security, CISA, EI-SAC, the FBI, our state law enforcement, our 
Department of Administration, which houses are networks. We 
have Albert sensors. We have everything possible to protect our 
statewide election system, which we house.
    I would say the biggest vulnerability in South Carolina is 
probably our locals. Although the State of South Carolina, I am 
sure, is inundated every second with attacks from adversaries, 
the biggest victims in my state of cybersecurity attacks are 
small municipalities, municipal utilities, and we are what is 
called a top-down state in that I supervise the county election 
offices, but they are still counties are still autonomous.
    If they do not want to accept help or spend their own 
resources on cybersecurity, they do not have to. But that being 
said, county election officials that have access to our 
statewide election system, they all undergo cybersecurity 
training.
    We do phishing. We do phishing campaigns in my office to 
ensure everybody is trained on that as well. We do lots of 
training. I can say that my agency at the state level has every 
resource I can think of. But I do worry about my smaller 
counties and municipalities.
    Senator Fischer. Thank you. Sec--I almost called you 
Secretary.
    Senator Padilla. I know why. As a former Secretary of State 
for the great State of California, now serving in the Senate, I 
am thrilled to welcome state and local elections officials to 
testify before us today.
    I think it is important for this body to hear from the 
folks on the ground, the folks who do this day in and day out 
to inform our positions in decision making and investments. It 
is true here now more than ever before because we know the 
impact that the Big Lie has had through the sowing of 
disinformation throughout--about our elections in the minds of 
a lot of the American people. It is that with abstract 
consequences.
    There are very real consequences, even in the State of 
California, where Shasta County has chosen to stop using their 
Dominion voting system, and I should underscore a state tested 
and certified voting system, putting itself in a position with 
no system or plan in place with elections less than a year 
away, because it is not about next November, it is about the 
primaries in 2024.
    There are real dangers here to all of this. I know 
Chairwoman Klobuchar mentioned earlier her concern about 
election workers and the threats that they are under on an 
increasing basis. Again, a consequence of the Big Lie.
    When one in six election workers share that they have faced 
threats and harassment since the 2020 election, resulting in 
one in three election workers leaving their positions, it is 
not just a matter of capacity that is being lost as a result, 
but the tremendous talent and experience that is lost.
    While threats and challenges to our elections are only on 
the increase, my first question is for Secretary Toulouse 
Oliver. Good to see you again. Can you just share what your 
experience in New Mexico has been in this regard? Any aside 
from stats, any tangible examples of the threats to harassment 
from your office to the locals, and the loss of election 
workers and what that means?
    Ms. Toulouse Oliver. Thank you very much, Madam Chair, and 
Senator from my native State of California. It is very good to 
see you again. I did already allude to a little bit of this in 
some earlier comments.
    Forgive me for repeating myself a little bit, but so I 
think the challenges are twofold in terms of the demands and 
the challenges in retaining--you know, and I really want to 
emphasize that because our poll, particularly down at the local 
level, our poll workers, the ones who come year in and year 
out, who have that breadth of experience and knowledge, but 
also our local election officials, right.
    In my state, county clerks, their staff, right, having 
folks who know and understand the election process, who are 
educated, efficient, good at their jobs, keeping those 
professionals in place is really important. When they 
experience harassment and threats and we do lose and we have in 
my state, just as we have seen across the country, we have lost 
a lot of these experienced folks as a result of this. It is a 
challenge.
    I think that the challenge is twofold. I think first and 
foremost, there is sort of the obvious, you know, threats of 
violence and just outright harassment. I mean, I have heard 
reports from poll officials who say they were, you know, 
followed home.
    You know, folks who are kind of lingering outside of a 
polling place and waiting for them to close down and kind of 
you know, following them home to see where they live, you know, 
ostensibly to--I do not know, see if they brought a ballot with 
them or something like that from a polling place.
    But also, one of the bigger challenges we are dealing with 
is that the misinformation is creating sort of, you know, tens 
of thousands of what I would call, you know, individual self-
described detectives who are flooding even our smallest offices 
with information requests.
    They are so overwhelming that they cannot even--they do not 
have the time they need to do their jobs, right. Those are some 
of the challenges.
    Senator Padilla. These are, you know, great examples, which 
from what I hear, colleagues in other states were contentious 
states, particularly the once every 4-year state, it gets even 
more intense. I will try to make another couple of questions on 
the shorter side with my time left.
    But yes, one question for Mr. Evnen, do you believe your 
team and the local leaders that you work with are prepared for 
the challenges that the Big Lie is going to cause in next 
year's election? Yes or no, or very brief answer.
    Mr. Evnen. Well, our elections officials across the state 
are county clerks. Our elections are conducted by county clerks 
across all 93 counties and election commissioners in our larger 
counties. They are prepared. We support them from the Secretary 
of State's Office in our elections division. We support them 
with information. We support them----
    Senator Padilla. Are we going to be ready next year?
    Mr. Evnen. We are ready.
    Senator Padilla. Any concern about being ready next year or 
not?
    Mr. Evnen. We do not have concerns about being ready. We 
have responded to questions and concerns. You can see on the 
Secretary of State's website, the Nebraska Secretary of State's 
website, we have a presentation called Fake versus Fact, and in 
that we have responded to a number of the concerns that have 
been raised. We lay out what we have found to be the case and 
we let the voters decide for themselves what they think.
    Senator Padilla. All right. Let me follow-up with some of 
you on--after the hearing with some more specific questions.
    The last one is more on the technical side, you know, for a 
lot of people across the country, increasingly getting to the 
polls on a single particular day between a certain time and a 
certain time to cast your ballot is not always the most 
convenient, particular changing rules.
    We know that primarily in the West, from Utah, Colorado, 
Oregon, California as well, we have expanded greatly the option 
of voting by mail, which has proven to be very safe, very 
secure, in addition to be very convenient.
    Question for Mr. Bowens, do you think we would benefit from 
a basic Federal standard that would allow all voters that are 
eligible to vote, and we are talking about eligible voters 
here, to be able to exercise a vote by mail option?
    Mr. Bowens. Thank you, Senator. I can speak to Durham 
County, North Carolina, and what works there. Over the past 
three Federal general elections, approximately 63 percent of 
our voters have participated early.
    Over the same three Federal general elections, we have 
received over 82,000 civilian, military and overseas, absentee 
by mail requests, no excuse. In North Carolina, 72 percent of 
those that were returned were accepted and counted.
    I believe that North Carolina has established very good 
standards with respect to voting in general, but certainly 
early voting, which begins 17 days or the third Thursday prior 
to each election, and I believe the first in the country to 
distribute absentee by mail ballots beginning 60 days prior to 
Federal general elections.
    To the extent that standards would comply with what North 
Carolina does, which I think is a very good model, I would 
agree with that.
    Senator Padilla. Thank you very much. I am a big believer, 
just so you know, and again, proven to be safe, secure, and 
very convenient for folks. Thank you, Madam Chair.
    Senator Fischer. Thank you, Senator. Nebraska kind of eased 
into voting by mail. We started in, I think it was 2005, a bill 
passed in the legislature when I was there that in reaction to 
the Help America Vote Act. The cost that would have had on some 
very sparsely populated counties.
    A bill was passed to allow those counties to vote by mail. 
As Mr. Bowens said, you know, you--the state was able then to 
work it out and set standards that worked for the state, and so 
we enjoy voting by mail in Nebraska----
    Senator Padilla. I get--I appreciate that every state is 
different, every local jurisdiction is a little bit different. 
I am not a fan of vote by mail exclusively, but as an option 
because the general trend that we have seen is when voting by 
mail is an option, more people exercise it, fewer people show 
up in person, so that the cost of implementing vote by mail is 
actually a lot less than the cost of maintaining polling places 
and staff and equipment for days when fewer and fewer voters 
are showing up. You still maintain an in-person option, but 
that right balance of the two is the most efficient.
    Senator Fischer. I think that is important that, you know, 
as Mr. Bowens said, the states are able to figure out how to 
make that work. Thank you.
    Chairwoman Klobuchar. It is fun to come into a discussion 
between my colleagues.
    Senator Fischer. There are so few of us here----
    Chairwoman Klobuchar. Exactly. We are pleased to see two 
new Members of Committee here, Senator Britt, and then we will 
go to Senator Bennet. Senator Britt.
    Senator Britt. Thank you, Madam Chairwoman, and Ranking 
Member. I am excited to be at my first hearing today. I 
actually want to follow-up on the line of questioning from my 
colleague here across the aisle.
    As he discussed, recruiting poll workers has been a 
constant challenge and it has actually become more challenging, 
more difficult in recent years as we have had more and more 
experienced volunteers choosing to retire.
    I would like to do kind of a rapid fire very quick as we go 
through and talk with each of you just about what are your 
offices doing to encourage people to engage in this electoral 
process, to be poll workers?
    Any tips you have or anything that is working? Because I 
think if we could hear what is working for you, that would help 
us get the word out to other places about what they may do to 
help remedy that problem. We will start with you. Yes, ma'am.
    Ms. Johnson. I am not an election official, but I will say 
as part of our work with the Election Protection Coalition, we 
definitely push for people to sign up to be poll workers 
because we see them as an essential part of the process and we 
create guides to help voters know about the process.
    Senator Britt. Right, absolutely. Okay. Thank you. Yes, 
sir.
    Mr. Bowens. I would say it is twofold. One is related to 
compensation. In North Carolina, we pay our poll workers.
    But I also understand that in many jurisdictions, very 
fortunate in Durham County, and many North Carolina counties, 
they cannot pay reasonable compensation outside of the 
statutory baseline to engage workers wanting to participate.
    This speaks to the need as suggested by the National 
Association of Counties, for consistent, predictable Federal 
funding to help in that regard.
    Senator Britt. Thank you very much. Mr. Knapp.
    Mr. Knapp. I would agree with that. More pay is always 
good. Always I will say that in the last election we had two 
counties that were struggling to find poll workers. Their 
counties decided to supplement what we reimburse at the state 
level and lo and behold, they had a surplus of poll volunteers.
    I will say the biggest issue we have in South Carolina in 
regards to poll workers is the harassments that they receive 
during the primaries from observers and watchers. One thing 
that my office did to kind of combat that because our state 
statute is very vague on what watchers and observers are and 
what they can do.
    I just established a, here is what you can do. Here is what 
you cannot do. Poll watchers, observers, you cannot scream at 
election officials. Election officials, you cannot prohibit 
these observers from seeing what is going on. I think everybody 
on the same page----
    Senator Britt. With clear guidelines.
    Mr. Knapp. Yes, everybody is on the same page.
    Senator Britt. Secretary.
    Mr. Evnen. Thank you, Senator. Our recruitment efforts go 
back to the primary in 2020, May 2020. We did not change our 
primary date. You recall that we were very much closed down as 
a result of COVID, as a result of the pandemic. But Nebraska 
voters like to go to the polls and they want to go to the 
polls, and we have a percentage of Nebraska voters who are 
voting early.
    But we also have Nebraska voters who like going to the 
polls. We were committed to having every one of our polling 
places open, on time, all day, and we did so. We were 
successful in that. One of the things we did was run a step up 
campaign. We did this on radio, television, social media.
    What we said was this, Nebraskans take care of each other, 
and they do. Nebraskans take care of each other. There are 
older poll workers who are concerned about serving as poll 
workers in the midst of the pandemic. It is time for the next 
generation of poll workers to stand up, to step forward, and 
they did, Senator, they did.
    This was a difficult challenge, which turns out to have 
been a generational opportunity for us. Now today, I encourage 
people who have concerns about our election processes to go 
serve as poll workers. Go be a poll worker, take a look at what 
is going on and see what you think for yourself.
    Senator Britt. We need more people--[technical problems]--
to step up and do it. I am almost out of time. I am so sorry.
    Mr. Evnen. Okay, I am sorry.
    Senator Britt. Just quickly, because I have one question I 
want to get----
    Chairwoman Klobuchar. We are not that strict here on the 
Rules Committee, even though we are called the Rules 
Committee----
    Senator Britt. Okay, great. I really appreciate that. 
Senator Klobuchar. Thank you.
    Ms. Toulouse Oliver. Thank you, Senator. I will echo all 
the comments that have been made. This is a truly bipartisan 
issue. I will just dovetail on Senator Evnen's campaign point. 
In my--Secretary sorry, all the s all the titles. In my state 
and many other states, we actually allow 16 and 17 year olds to 
serve as poll officials even before they are ready to be actual 
voters. They are getting in on the process----
    Senator Britt. Getting the younger generation involved----
    Ms. Toulouse Oliver. We are seeing a lot of success with 
that as well.
    Senator Britt [continuing]. Taking pride in the process. I 
love it. We have got to get more people engaged and be able to, 
the generation that is retiring and we have to have new people 
step up. Thank you for those ideas. Quickly, if I may, just a 
quick question actually for Secretary Evnen.
    Am I saying that correctly? Excellent. Your testimony 
referred to your longstanding support of voter ID and the 
overwhelming decision of Nebraska voters this past November to 
amend the state Constitution to require a presentation of photo 
ID before casting a ballot. In Alabama, our voter ID law was 
passed in 2011 and has been in effect since 2014.
    Under our law, a voter that does not have one of the 
approved forms of voter ID may receive a free Alabama voter ID 
from various locations, including the local County Board of 
Registrars, among others.
    But in fact, actually, our Secretary of State's Office will 
drive to your house and give you--do a voter ID right in your 
driveway, if that is what it takes to make sure that you have 
that. I obviously share your view that voter ID laws are 
important way to help ensure the integrity of and enhance faith 
in our elections.
    Can you just say a little bit more about the importance of 
that, and what do you believe have been some of the best 
practices that you have seen?
    Chairwoman Klobuchar. Secretary, I know Senator Bennet has 
another commitment so quick answer on this one. I would really 
appreciate it. Thank you.
    Senator Britt. Thank you.
    Mr. Evnen. We are looking into the implementation of it 
with the legislature, and I am working with them. The 
legislature is looking at can we make our state issued photo 
IDs available at no charge. I think that that goes a long way. 
Already 97 or 98 percent of all registered voters possess a 
photo ID issued by the state. We are committed to make sure 
make----
    Senator Britt. Make sure everybody has one.
    Mr. Evnen [continuing]. sure that everyone has an 
opportunity.
    Senator Britt. Thank you so much, Mr. Secretary. Thank you 
all for being here.
    Chairwoman Klobuchar. Thank you. Thank you very much. 
Senator Bennet.
    Senator Bennet. Madam Chair.
    Chairwoman Klobuchar. You are well aware of our competition 
over the years--who has the highest voter turnout----
    Senator Bennet. I am going to talk about that today, and 
Senator Britt, it is a pleasure to be here with you today. 
Senator Fischer, thank you for letting me come to the Rules 
Committee.
    I would like to thank all of you for your patriotic service 
to our country. This is--I never thought I would say that 
necessarily about people that were administering our elections, 
but you are at the heart of what this democracy is facing right 
now, and I deeply appreciate that. Ms. Johnson, thank you as 
well for your patriotic advocacy and service.
    I am actually going to ask you maybe my first and only 
question. Please let me just say, Chair Klobuchar, thanks for 
letting me come to the Committee. I know it is not easy to get 
on the Rules Committee, and I am one of the youngest or newest 
Members--not the youngest.
    I used to be one of the youngest, and I am grateful, 
grateful to represent Colorado and to work alongside everybody 
here to advance this Committee's important work. Through the 
last few years, the Chair and I have had a friendly 
competition.
    It has been a losing competition for me about whose state 
could produce the highest turnout of voters in the election. 
Since I said in every single corner of Colorado this election, 
while I was running for reelection, I will say in front of 
everybody, that we lost again to Senator Klobuchar and to 
Minnesota. I implored people to get to the vote--to get to the 
polls so they could deprive the Chair of her talking point.
    Even though Minnesota came out on top, both of our states 
have a lot to be proud of because we are consistently 
delivering higher voter turnout than the rest of the country. 
The reason for that is that we have made it very easy for 
everybody to vote without compromising security in any way. 
Nobody in Colorado would accept compromised security, and we do 
not.
    Colorado's approach allows residents to register online not 
only with a driver's license, but with Social Security numbers, 
something only one other state in the Nation accepts. We have 
automatic voter registration that meets Coloradans where they 
are, so they do not have to take a day off work to find child 
care to ensure their names are on the voter rolls. We have same 
day voter registration. We have led the charge on vote by mail, 
one of just seven other states to do so in 2022.
    We were just having a discussion about vote by mail. In 
2022, 95 percent of Coloradans voted by mail. Today, if 
somebody tried to take away vote by mail in my state, they 
would be run out of town for doing that.
    One reason I wanted to join this Committee is because we 
should make it easy for every American to vote the way people 
in Colorado have the chance to vote. Instead of expanding vote 
by mail, we have seen states move to restrict it, or at least 
80 bills in 23 states introduced to limit vote by mail based on 
the false belief that it is somehow more susceptible to fraud.
    Then, as we know in Colorado, an American is more likely 
literally to be struck by lightning than to commit fraud with a 
mail-in ballot. Do not take it from me.
    Take it from the Heritage Foundation, a very conservative 
think tank here in Washington, who found that out of 250 
million absentee votes cast over a 20 year period, the rate of 
mail voting fraud was 0.00006 percent of all votes cast. That 
is virtually zero. In fact, I do not know if you can get closer 
to zero than that.
    Ms. Johnson, vote by mail has been a huge benefit to rural 
communities in my state that may live far from voter service 
and polling centers. How do you think efforts to restrict vote 
by mail affect voter turnout, in particular for communities 
that might already have difficulty making it to the polls?
    Ms. Johnson.
    [Technical problems]--where we had a historic turnout. That 
was because of increased opportunities to vote, including 
increased access to vote by mail. We saw particularly voters of 
color taking advantage of that opportunity to vote by mail.
    I really hope that more states would be in competition with 
Colorado and Minnesota about who would have the highest 
turnout, because vote by mail really contributes to that. When 
we see efforts in states that are making it harder for voters 
to vote by mail, it is making it harder for voters to have a 
voice because they are taking away that opportunity that voters 
had.
    When they have that opportunity, they turn out. It is 
really important to have a standard of vote by mail as an 
option so that we can make sure that we have high turnout 
across the country and not some states having opportunity and 
others not.
    Senator Bennet. You know, one other thing I would just 
mention to the Chair and the Ranking Member before I wrap up is 
that the other benefit to vote by mail in our state is we have 
ballot initiatives, you know, and people have to read those 
ballot initiatives. It took me probably 45 minutes to fill out 
my ballot.
    The last time I voted took 2 seconds to actually cast the 
vote, but it gave us the chance to be able to reflect on stuff, 
look stuff up, think about things. That is another aspect of it 
that I think if we gave it up, all it would mean is massive 
lines of less informed people at the polls.
    Anyway, I commend it to everybody and thanks again for 
letting me be on the Committee, Madam Chair. I appreciate the 
time.
    Chairwoman Klobuchar. Okay. Very, very good. Well, we are 
excited to have you join us. I wanted to ask you, Mr. Bowens 
and Ms. Johnson, because I did not get to it, just some 
remaining questions here. I think Senator Cruz is going to be 
joining us, so I will do a bit of a Senate filibuster here.
    But I also wanted to ask both of you questions. I wanted to 
ask you about disinformation, misinformation, and how you think 
that affects things. I am thinking back, I talked to Mr. Knapp 
a little bit about it.
    You know, thinking back to the worst of it, when Senator 
Graham and I did the bill--actually it was originally Senator 
McCain and I, and then Senator Graham took over the bill, the 
Honest Ads Act that came out of incidences in 2016 when we 
found out some ads were paid for by rubles.
    We had situations where we had some African-American voters 
that were targeted in certain areas in I think it was Illinois 
and some other places with election information that said, why, 
why come in to vote? You can text your vote, which of course 
was not correct. At, you know, 8, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7. I mean, there 
were actual--we actually had stuff on the internet that had 
been sent to these voters.
    Could you talk about that? What has been done recently to 
make some improvements in your state? Ms. Johnson, you 
certainly have a national perspective on that. Mr. Bowens.
    Mr. Bowens. Thank you, Chairwoman. We have had similar 
incidents in our county over time where individuals have 
received text messages with disinformation, whether it be in 
regard to polling place locations, or how to vote.
    Our response in regards to this and misinformation has 
really been focused at a statewide level. Our state has 
implemented several campaigns to educate various members of our 
community and the state as a whole on what is factual. A part 
of that campaign is really focused on trust. Go to your local 
county board of elections.
    We found that pushing out that model has really helped get 
the correct information out there and kind of quell issues when 
they arise with disinformation.
    Chairwoman Klobuchar. Okay. Ms. Johnson.
    Ms. Johnson. Yes, Senator, we actually had a litigation 
targeting those who had a scheme to have robocalls to 
intimidate Black voters during the 2020 election cycle and very 
successfully litigated that claim and including having a fine 
from the FCC.
    The reason we became aware of this was from a call to the 
866-OUR-VOTE election protection hotline, because one of the 
things that misinformation and disinformation feeds on is when 
voters are not as informed about the election process, they can 
fall really susceptible to those efforts.
    I have been here doing election protection long enough when 
it was a flier in the neighborhoods, and now it is on social 
media and really harder to detect. Having a resource like the 
hotline helps us to identify when this is happening and to be 
able to address it. I will also note that there was discussion 
about the challenges on local election officials when they have 
to confront mis-and disinformation.
    We saw in 2022 where tens of thousands of voters were 
challenged and their voter registration was challenged and sent 
to election officials in Georgia right before the election that 
had to be processed based on mis-and disinformation.
    It has an impact not just on the voter and their 
confidence, but it also puts, as you have heard, an outside 
pressure on election officials and their ability to administer 
elections as well.
    Chairwoman Klobuchar. Okay, Very, very good. Thank you. 
Next up, Senator Cruz. You should know I filibustered some 
Senator Cruz so that you would get here for our Committee 
hearing.
    Senator Cruz. I appreciate it very much. Having served with 
you for a long time, I know that you are quite capable of a 
wonderful filibuster.
    Chairwoman Klobuchar. Thank you.
    Senator Cruz. I am sure we heard the virtues of the great 
State of Minnesota.
    Chairwoman Klobuchar. Yes. Our highest voter turnout, which 
is higher than Texas. The only thing you have on us is a bigger 
state fair, but that is only because you are open for 30 days. 
We actually have the bigger state fair. But continue on, 
Senator Cruz.
    Senator Cruz. I might disagree, but I will pick a different 
forum for that discussion. Good afternoon. Welcome to everyone.
    Every American wants election processes that they can trust 
and that are neutrally applied. When Secretaries of State or 
even State Supreme Courts contravene their own laws in order to 
skew election rules toward preferred political outcomes, this 
undermines the public faith in the democratic process.
    One such area for this is voter ID. According to Forbes, 81 
percent of Americans support voter ID, including 62 percent of 
Democrats. Voter ID, I believe should be a basic minimum 
requirement for a free and fair election. Yet voter ID right 
now is opposed on a partisan basis by virtually every Democrat 
in Congress and by a great many Democrat Secretaries of State.
    Secretary Oliver, you have been vocal on this topic. You 
told the Albuquerque Journal, ``I support policies that ensure 
the integrity of our elections. New Mexico requires voters to 
provide personal identifying information when voting in person 
with increased ID requirements for absentee voting. Photo voter 
ID laws, however, can make it harder for some communities to 
vote. I do not support this policy.'' According to the numbers 
I just cited from Forbes, 81 percent of Americans and 62 
percent of Democrats support photo ID for voting, why is it 
that the policy you embrace is different from the policy that a 
majority of New Mexicans want to see?
    Ms. Toulouse Oliver. Thank you for the question, Senator. 
In my position as Secretary of State, first of all, I do not 
make the laws in the State of New Mexico, but I do have a bully 
pulpit in which to espouse my viewpoint as 16 years being an 
election administrator in my state.
    There are communities for which having some physical form 
of ID--and of course, it looks different in every state, states 
that do require physical photo ID in order to vote. In some 
states there is a wide variety of such photos that can be used, 
in some it is much more limited. Obviously, states that have a 
wide variety of voter ID is available, that is, I think, 
personally a better policy.
    But in my state there are communities where even getting--
even getting a tribal, for example, we have a lot of tribal 
voters in my state. Twelve percent of my state is Native 
American. Many tribal IDs do not contain a photo. They are not 
necessarily issued in the same way that we understand photo ID 
to be issued.
    Senator Cruz. Madam Secretary, with respect, states can 
address that. Many states, like the State of Texas, provide for 
a zero cost photo ID for voting. I will say the polling also 
shows over 60 percent of African-Americans support photo ID.
    I will say the argument that minorities cannot get photo ID 
I think is condescending. I am Hispanic, I know how to get a 
driver's license. I have heard from many in minority 
communities that getting a photo ID is not an onerous 
requirement.
    I will point out, that your website indicates, a physical 
form of identification is only required for first time New 
Mexico voters who registered by mail and did not include 
identification with their voter registration application form. 
Otherwise, the website continues, the only identification 
needed to vote is, ``a verbal or written statement of 
identification, including a name, year of birth, and registered 
address.''
    You do not even require a date of birth, just a birth year. 
In about 30 seconds you can obtain enough information about 
someone to allow you to steal their vote. Madam Secretary, do 
you know the name Harris Hartz?
    Ms. Toulouse Oliver. Senator, that name is vaguely familiar 
to me. I do not remember.
    Senator Cruz. Harris Hartz is a judge, a Federal judge on 
the 10th Circuit who sits in Albuquerque. In 2017, Judge Hartz 
went to vote and he was barred from voting when the Albuquerque 
city clerk's record showed that somebody else had already voted 
under his name.
    This is a Federal Judge in New Mexico, but you just needed 
his name and your birth, which is pretty easy to find. He ended 
up ultimately having to vote--he was initially denied the right 
to vote. Ultimately, he was given the ability to vote on a 
provisional vote.
    Before voting, he presented his driver's license to the 
voting center staff, and after an investigation of the 
fraudulent ballot, Judge Hartz said, ``the signature was 
nowhere near mine and it did not even look like Harris Hartz.''
    Does it concern you when Federal Judges are having their 
votes stolen in New Mexico because there is not a photo ID 
requirement?
    Ms. Toulouse Oliver. Senator, I remember this issue now. 
This was a mistake made by a poll worker. That is what 
happened. That--mistakes can be made by poll workers even when 
a physical ID is shown.
    Senator Cruz. But what was the mistake?
    Ms. Toulouse Oliver. The poll worker brought up the 
incorrect record, not--they brought up Mr. Judge Hartz's record 
as opposed to the individual who was casting the ballot. 
Neither the poll worker nor the voter noticed the discrepancy 
and a mistake was made.
    When Judge Hartz came to vote, he--there was an 
investigation into what exactly happened. It was not that the 
individual was attempting to steal Judge Hartz's vote. It was 
that there was a clerical error that was made. Clerical errors 
do get made in elections. They are regrettable----
    Senator Cruz. I think we should protect everyone's right to 
vote. I agree with 81 percent of Americans that photo ID 
requirements protect the integrity of our elections and protect 
your right to vote, my right to vote, and even Federal Judges 
right's to vote. Thank you.
    Chairwoman Klobuchar. Okay. Just a few follow-ups here. I 
was someone that enforced our election laws as the county 
attorney for 8 years in the biggest county in Minnesota, and 
the Secretary of State's Office would forward any questionable 
things to my office, and I actually had an investigator because 
I wanted to follow-up on every one.
    We looked into every single one and the vast majority of 
them, in fact, nearly all of them were father and son that had 
the same name, but it came up on the records. I think we are 
now at a more advanced stage of our computer systems that those 
are not being reported, but we would investigate each one.
    We had one couple there where the school board line went 
through their house, and this is a county of over a million 
people, and they decided to vote twice in a school board 
election, which was wrong.
    We had to deal with that. Then we had one guy who admitted 
that he had voted twice on the phone and he was put on 
probation. These are hundreds of cases that we actually pursued 
and investigated.
    That just was in one county, anecdotal, of course, but it 
was my experience that this is very, very rare. You want to 
answer that question, Ms. Toulouse Oliver, because I think that 
is what Senator Cruz was trying to get at, because we know 
there is--in my state they vouch with--you can--if you are a 
voter who is doing same day registration and you are new in the 
neighborhood, you can bring, not brand new, but you can bring 
an electricity bill, gas bill with a neighbor who vouches for 
you, and there are things you can do.
    But that person is actually putting themselves on the line 
and vouching that you live there. We just have not had this 
rampant problem. We have had many close elections, everyone 
knows that, including the Senate race with Senator Franken and 
Senator Coleman. These ballots were very closely reviewed on 
national TV.
    Secretary Toulouse Oliver, do you want to talk about how 
rare voter impersonation is? I note this stat from 2020 from 
the Brennan Center, experts have found that voter impersonation 
fraud is so rare that an American is more likely to be struck 
by lightning than to commit voter impersonation fraud. This is 
simply because they are not going to risk the legal outcome of 
having, what was in Minnesota, the county prosecutor's office 
investigate them. But please answer.
    Ms. Toulouse Oliver. Sure, that is right, Madam Chair. 
Voter fraud, especially in-person voter impersonation, is 
extremely rare. It is extremely rare in my state as it is 
everywhere else. The example that Senator Cruz just showed, you 
know, these things do happen from time to time. When I was the 
county clerk in Bernalillo County, a former Secretary of State 
went to vote and the record had reflected that she had already 
voted. Of course, she was deeply concerned about that.
    I was deeply concerned about that. We immediately conducted 
an investigation and what we found was that during her 
administration as Secretary of State, she would issue voter ID 
cards to every voter in the state through the mail with her 
name at the top of them as Secretary of State, and a voter had 
come to present themselves to vote.
    Of course, because the former Secretary of State's name was 
so big on the top of the card, the poll worker said, oh, it is 
you. Let me flag your record, right. It is very rare. I 
personally do not favor it for my state. To the extent that 
these things happen, 99 percent of the time they are clerical 
or administrative errors.
    Chairwoman Klobuchar. Okay. Just maybe ending here with 
you, Ms. Johnson. The New York Times editorial board noted 
Oregon has sent out more than 100 million mail-in ballots--100 
million since 2000. As you know, they are a big mail-in ballot 
state.
    I like the fact, by the way, that my state is kind of a mix 
because it gives people--it is easier to do both with the same 
day registration. I think that is one of the reasons we do so 
well with turnout. But Oregon also has a high turnout, as does 
Utah, and they are pure mail-in ballot, nearly pure mail-in 
ballot.
    Oregon has sent out more than 100 million mail-in ballots 
since 2000, has documented only about a dozen cases of proven 
fraud. Rounded to the seventh decimal that is 0.0000001 of all 
votes cast. Does that surprise you at all?
    Ms. Johnson. Not at all. I think what we saw in 2020, where 
we had 100 million people voting before Election Day and more 
people voting significantly before Election Day in 2022 as 
well, is that voters welcome the opportunity to vote by mail.
    We have seen that it is a very secure form of voting. As 
you noted, the states who have vote by mail do not have any 
election security risk. It is very important that, as you 
mentioned, that voters have a range of opportunities to vote 
because we see when they do so, we have historic turnouts in 
the elections.
    Chairwoman Klobuchar. I also note that former Attorney 
General William Barr, when he looked at this--it is not just, 
you know, Oregon looking at their numbers--stated that for the 
2020 election that he found no evidence of widespread voter 
fraud.
    I just think in light of what all of you have been talking 
about in a bipartisan basis, elevating the facts, that when 
something bad happens we investigate it, we call it out no 
matter how small, it is so important because that is part of 
the integrity of the whole system.
    But that our foremost focus is, as you Secretary Evnen 
talked about, it is that credibility of the election and making 
sure that people understand this, that these claims can be 
made. But then you look at the fact that every one of you with 
different voting laws said that you were confident in the 
security of the elections in the last election. I want to thank 
you. I do not know if you want to add anything, Senator 
Fischer.
    Senator Fischer. Thank you, Chairwoman. Thank you to our 
panel today. I appreciated all your comments and all your 
viewpoints, and I think it just reinforced how important it is 
that every state be able to set up and monitor their own 
elections, to be able to focus on things that work for them.
    We heard a variety of differences between the states here, 
and I thank you all for bringing those viewpoints forward to 
us, because we know that it is the poll workers under your 
guidance, as the election officials in your areas that make 
this democracy work. Thank you very, very much.
    Chairwoman Klobuchar. Well, thank you. I will just end by 
saying we heard some good things about 2022 including we had 
secure and safe elections. We also know that as we approach the 
next election, some states coming sooner than others, Mr. 
Knapp, as we approach the next election, we must continue to 
work together to address these challenges by ensuring state and 
local governments have consistent resources and then, of 
course, federal help as well.
    That comes in forms of protecting electing workers and also 
technology, and then, of course, making sure that voters can 
cast their ballot in whatever way works best for them. I look 
forward to continuing to work with my colleagues on this 
Committee to provide election officials and voters across the 
country with the support they need.
    The hearing record will remain open for one week. With no 
other Senators waiting to answer questions, I know you want 
them to arrive at the last minute and ask more, but we are 
happy to announce this hearing is adjourned. Thank you all for 
attending.
    [Whereupon, at 4:45 p.m., the hearing was adjourned.]

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