[Joint House and Senate Hearing, 118 Congress]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]


                    SUPPORTING ISRAEL AND UKRAINE AGAINST 
                                   TERROR

=======================================================================

                                HEARING

                               BEFORE THE

                      COMMISSION ON SECURITY AND 
                          COOPERATION IN EUROPE

                        U.S. HELSINKI COMMISSION

                     U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

                    ONE HUNDRED EIGHTEENTH CONGRESS

                             FIRST SESSION

                               __________

                            OCTOBER 19, 2023

                               __________

 Printed for the use of the Commission on Security and Cooperation in 
                                 Europe

                              [CSCE118-9]
                              
                              
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                       Available via www.csce.gov
                       
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                    U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE                    
53-842                       WASHINGTON : 2023                    
          
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            COMMISSION ON SECURITY AND COOPERATION IN EUROPE

                        U.S. HELSINKI COMMISSION

             U.S. HOUSE			U.S SENATE


JOE WILSON, South Carolina Chairman	BEN CARDIN, Maryland Co-Chairman
STEVE COHEN, Tennessee Ranking 		ROGER F. WICKER, Mississippi
    Member				     Ranking Member
ROBERT B. ADERHOLT, Alabama		RICHARD BLUMENTHAL, Connecticut
EMANUEL CLEAVER II, Missouri		JOHN BOOZMAN, Arkansas
RUBEN GALLEGO, Arizona			JEANNE SHAHEEN, New Hampshire
RICHARD HUDSON, North Carolina		THOM TILLIS, North Carolina
MIKE LAWLER, New York			SHELDON WHITEHOUSE, Rhode Island
GWEN MOORE, Wisconsin
VICTORIA SPARTZ, Indiana
MARC VEASEY, Texas                                

                            EXECUTIVE BRANCH
                 Department of State - to be appointed
                Department of Defense - to be appointed
                Department of Commerce - to be appointed
                         
                         
                         C  O  N  T  E  N  T  S

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                                                                   Page

                             COMMISSIONERS

Hon. Steve Cohen, Ranking Member, from Tennessee.................     1

Hon. Joe Wilson, Chairman, from South Carolina...................    16

Hon. Victoria Spartz, from Indiana...............................    19

Hon. Sheldon Whitehouse, from Rhode Island.......................    21

Hon. Marc Veasey, from Texas.....................................    26


                               WITNESSES

Oksana Markarova, Ukrainian ambassador to the United States of 
  America........................................................     3

Eliav Benjamin, Deputy Head of Mission, The Embassy of Israel to 
  the United States..............................................     5

Jamil N. Jaffer, Founder and Executive Director, National 
  Security Institute at George Mason University..................    11

Jonathan Schanzer, Senior Vice President, Foundation for the 
  Defense of Democracies.........................................    12

Dan Twining, President, International Republican Institute.......    14


 
              SUPPORTING ISRAEL AND UKRAINE AGAINST TERROR

                              ----------                              

     COMMISSION ON SECURITY AND COOPERATION IN EUROPE,
                          U.S. HELSINKI COMMISSION,
                                  HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES,
                                        Thursday, October 19, 2023.

    The hearing was held from 2:02 p.m. To 3:44 p.m., room 2247 
Rayburn House Office Building, Washington, DC, Representative 
Joe Wilson [R-SC], Chairman, Commission for Security and 
Cooperation in Europe, presiding.
    Committee Members Present: Representative Joe Wilson [R-
SC], Chairman; Representative Steve Cohen [D-TN], Ranking 
Member; Representative Victoria Spartz [R-IN]; Senator Sheldon 
Whitehouse [D-RI]; Representative Marc Veasey [D-TX].
    Witnesses: Oksana Markarova, Ukrainian Ambassador to the 
United States of America; Eliav Benjamin, Deputy Head of 
Mission, The Embassy of Israel to the United States; Jamil N. 
Jaffer, Founder and Executive Director, National Security 
Institute at George Mason University; Jonathan Schanzer, Senior 
Vice President, Foundation for the Defense of Democracies; Dan 
Twining, President, International Republican Institute.

  OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. STEVE COHEN, RANKING MEMBER, U.S. 
                     HOUSE, FROM TENNESSEE

    Representative Cohen: The hearing will come to order. I am 
Congressman Steve Cohen, the ranking member. The chair is 
involved in a markup in another committee. He is not being 
pushed for speaker. [Laughter.] He would make a great speaker, 
would he not? Tell him I said that. Thank you all for attending 
this hearing, an important issue.
    On October 7, Israel experienced a terrorist attack from 
Hamas that was brutal, inhuman, and has caused the world to 
concentrate on the Middle East. The world needs to be looking 
at what is going on in the Middle East and for the awful, 
horrific deaths that Hamas caused. I have been to meetings this 
week with families of victims, and a victim who appeared at the 
president's Jewish President's Conference. America is pretty 
well united behind Israel. That is commendable and good as 
should be the case.
    There is parallels between Israel and Ukraine, and Hamas 
and Russia. Those parallels are pretty clear to anybody that 
looks at this issue and the players with an objective eye. A 
lot of people, particularly in Congress, some people in 
Congress, are not looking at it that way. Congress was pretty 
much united behind supporting Israel with military aid and all 
other types of aid, except for a few members of the squad. 
There are quite a few people who are not for supporting aid to 
Ukraine, and that is really sad, because Ukraine is an 
independent nation, as is Israel--a sovereign nation that is 
having its integrity threatened, attacked. Russia is no 
different than Hamas in the case of what they have done in 
attacking a sovereign nation and wanting to commit genocide.
    Hamas has in their charter that they want to remove all the 
Jews from the Mediterranean to the Jordan River. They have some 
pretty awful things to say about Jewish people in general, that 
they are slime and characters and bad people. They would like 
to see, I think, all the Jews in the world destroyed, killed. 
Russia has basically done the same thing in Ukraine. They do 
not think Ukraine exists. They are a non-State. They believe 
that the Ukrainians--they are just trying--they have done all 
the aspects of a genocide, taking the children, destroying 
cultural sites, you name it.
    There is so many parallels and the support should be there 
for Ukraine as well as we should be a country, as we have been 
over the years, supporting democracy, supporting the rule of 
law, and supporting nations that are being attacked by 
countries that do not respect the rule of law and do not 
respect borders and respect basically what the U.N.'s about and 
what OSCE was formed for, the Helsinki Accords. That there are 
countries that have geographic integrity and they should not be 
interfered with.
    We hope we can have funding for both Ukraine and Israel. 
There will be a package the president's going to propose to do 
that, because they are parallel situations. I know Chairman 
Wilson shares my views on both Israel and Ukraine. I look 
forward to hearing ideas today for new initiatives and insights 
into the problems that we have from our distinguished 
witnesses.
    Appreciate the Ambassador being here. She has been a 
stalwart for Ukraine and have done a marvelous job.
    We welcome Mr. Benjamin here as well, deputy chief of 
mission from the Embassy of Israel, for his opening remarks. I 
heard you at the president's conference at the I Street--6 and 
I Synagogue and you were spectacular. Thank you for meeting 
with the group and representing the Ambassador.
    Following the remarks of the embassies' representatives 
here, we will hear from our witnesses.
    Jamil Jaffer, founder and executive director of the 
National Security Institute at George Mason.
    Then hear from Dr. Jonathan Schanzer, senior vice president 
of the Foundation for the Defense of Democracies, who literally 
wrote the book on Hamas and has been a great friend of this 
Commission for some time.
    Finally, we will hear from Dr. Dan Twining, president of 
the International Republican Institute.
    Thank each of you for coming here, for your interest in 
this subject. Nothing is closer to my heart, and should be 
close to everybody in America's heart.
    With that, I yield to the other commissioners for remarks. 
Nobody seeks recognition. [Laughter.] With that, I recognize 
the Ambassador, Ambassador Makarova.

  TESTIMONY OF OKSANA MARKAROVA, UKRAINIAN AMBASSADOR TO THE 
                    UNITED STATES OF AMERICA

    Mr. Markarova: Thank you very much, Co-Chair Cohen. I 
apologize for my voice. I have lost it yesterday. I, of course, 
could not miss our meeting today. From the onset, let me thank 
you and the Commission for your tireless work in defending 
human rights everywhere and fighting against injustice and 
fighting for dignity. As still, unfortunately, we have so many 
terrorists, whether it is a terroristic organization like Hamas 
or terroristic State, like Russian Federation, who instead of 
working toward resolving real problems that we all still have 
are simply trying to kill people. This is appalling in the 21st 
century.
    I would like to start my remarks with the quote of 
President Zelensky, and he said, ``As terror is spreading 
across the globe, it is important for the world to give an 
unambiguous signal that protection against terror will not stop 
anywhere.'' Indeed, only joint resolute decisions and only 
joint resolute actions can put a decisive end to the terror 
that outcasts regime employ against the innocent civilian 
population in so many places. To illustrate the horrors Ukraine 
faces daily, I would like to start also to add and demonstrate 
a short video on the usage of Iranian-made drones which Russia 
deploys against our civilians, our infrastructure.
    [A video presentation begins.]
    Narrator: Alongside pricey ballistic and cruise missiles, 
Russia is using a new technological weapon to accomplish its 
war crime in Ukraine--Iranian-made kamikaze drones. Assembled 
from commercially available components, the delta winged Shahed 
136 drone carries a small warhead, about 50 kilograms, instead 
of the more usual 450 kilograms or more for ballistic and 
cruise missiles. Keeping a low profile on radars, they carry a 
powerful charge. A hit from a drone may be equivalent to a hit 
from a missile.
    Cheap, lethal, and plentiful, these drones have already 
inflicted tremendous damage to Ukraine within the past 18 
months of the full-scale aggression. Thirty percent of 
Ukraine's power stations were knocked out in just over a week 
last year after swarming attacks of the Iranian kamikaze 
drones. This is what was left from a school in the town of 
Romny after the drone attack on August 23rd. This is the 
aftermath of the targeted power plant in Vinnytsia region, 
leaving 18,000 people with no heat.
    Forty thousand tons of Ukrainian grain that were supposed 
to be delivered to Africa, China, and Israel were burned out 
after the onslaught of Russian-launched drones on a port in 
Izmail, Odessa region. In a massive drone attack on storages 
and Lviv, the Kremlin reduced to nothing 300 tons of 
humanitarian aid. This is what Ukrainian kids have to go 
through every time they hear air raid sirens and explosions 
after hostile attacks from the sky. This is a civilian 
apartment building that had been hit by a kamikaze drone, 
cutting short the life of a couple who was expecting a child.
    Even though its navigation signal is vulnerable to jamming, 
their quantity trump quality. Such drones can be sent in large 
volleys from several directions, overwhelming air defenses. In 
just September this year, Russia launched over 500 such drones, 
eliminating Ukraine's housing, infrastructure, and human lives. 
Russia was also receiving materials from Iran required to build 
a drone manufacturing plan that could be fully operational 
early next year. Even though Ukraine puts down around 80 
percent of Russian-launched drones, the Kremlin is planning to 
produce over 6,000 more by summer 2025 to continue terror. The 
rest, 20 percent, is quite enough to inflict tangible damage. 
Russia longs for more destruction, more pain, and more lives 
taken. Stop Russia, cease violence, put an end to terror.
    [Video presentation ends.]
    Mr. Markarova: Thank you. For 602 days now, Ukraine endures 
this reinvasion and start of the aggressive war. In this war, 
not only Russia is fighting on the battlefront, but also is 
using the Kremlin's key tool, its greatest perverted pride, the 
pride of terrorizing civilians. Last winter with these Iranian 
drones, but also with other missiles and all the tools that 
they have, they attacked pretty much every beautiful city in 
Ukraine, trying to destroy schools, trying to hit museums, 
trying to destroy residential buildings.
    Of course, we will not break, and Ukrainians will not 
break. We have to recognize this countless war crimes as pure 
terrorist acts that Russia is committing and over and over 
again. Obviously, this winter, Russia will try to use the same 
tactics of terrorism. Please know that during this horrible 
week of attacks on Israel, the terrorist also targeted 
civilians, but also targeted one of the largest power plants in 
the region. Until last winter when Russia started employing 
this tactic, the terrorists had not done so in the previous 
attacks. What is it, if not the same playbook?
    Yet another proof that unanswered evil doubles, another 
proof that the civilized world must stand together against this 
modern axis of evil, of countries like Russia, Iran, and others 
who join forces in not only trying to wipe out Ukraine, but 
also trying to start wars and do terrorist attacks in other 
parts of the world. To prevail in this aspect and protect our 
civilians, we must deprive Russia of its ability to produce 
sophisticated missiles. We must deprive Iran from the 
possibility to continue producing them and also sharing them 
with Russia. Russia still depends significantly on the Western 
technologies to produce them. This link must be decisively cut. 
Sanctions must be decisively enforced. All backdoors must be 
sealed.
    Another aspect of strengthening is, of course--and I want 
to, again, thank the Commission of putting constant attention 
to it--is the terror against Ukrainian children. Let me draw 
attention to a couple of numbers. Five hundred and eight 
killed. One thousand thirty-six injured. One thousand four-
hundred and ninety-seven missing. Nineteen thousand five 
hundred forty-six deported. Those are not just numbers. Those 
are kids, our Ukrainian kids, our neighbors' kids, our kids' 
classmates, and it is only the official numbers.
    Because we do not control still almost 20 percent of our 
territory, which is still occupied and terrorized by Russia, we 
do not know the numbers. We do not know what happened to a lot 
of people of Mariupol and Melitopol. Mariupol is the city of 
400,000 people. We do not know how many of them were killed, or 
deported, abducted to Russia. Among all these children are also 
orphans, children who have parents, as well as children who 
have legal guardians, or children whose parents died during 
hostilities.
    Yet, again, we are discussing the two countries today. We 
see, again, the terrorist attacks against children in Israel. 
We have to decisively say that this is a terrorist attack. This 
is not some sense from even the war. This is something that is 
a war crime and has to be punished with the most severe 
punishments. Russia must be held accountable for committing 
these crimes and preventing their repetition in the future.
    In conclusion, you know, for both of our countries, for 
Ukraine for the past 602 days, for Israel, the time is of the 
essence. All people who fight for democracy and freedom 
throughout the globe count on U.S. leadership and count on U.S. 
continued support in order to be able to defend ourselves. We 
in Ukraine will not get tired. We will not surrender. We will 
not stop until all Ukraine is liberated and until all of our 
people are brought home, and until Russia is held 100 percent 
accountable.
    We do not ask other nations to fight for us. We still are 
capable and willing to do it ourselves. We need, sir, all the 
support in order to be able to fight. We need the support with 
weapons and budget support. We really hope that these 
discussions that are in Congress right now on the additional 
supplementary budget for Ukraine, and for that matter for 
Israel and for other allies, will be supported and adopted so 
that we can actually, now when the victory is in sight, double 
down on our efforts and liberate all Ukraine. Thank you for 
your support, and God bless America.
    Representative Cohen: Thank you for your remarks. The 
parallels with Iran and Russia both helping--Iran is definitely 
helping Hamas. I suspect they are helping Russia. I mean, 
Russia is helping Hamas as well. They certainly benefit from 
the spotlight being turned away from Ukraine. I think President 
Biden in the proposal he is going to have is going to be 
supportive of both the areas.
    Mr. Benjamin, again, thank you for your remarks yesterday 
at the--I guess was yesterday. Time flies, or the day before--
but you are recognized.

   TESTIMONY OF ELIAV BENJAMIN, DEPUTY HEAD OF MISSION, THE 
             EMBASSY OF ISRAEL TO THE UNITED STATES

    Mr. Benjamin: Thank you. Thank you, Ranking Member Cohen. 
Thank you, Ambassador Makarova, for your remarks, and thank you 
for hosting me and us here today.
    We are at war. Israel is at war. A war that we did not 
choose, but a war that we will end. Once we defeat Hamas, and 
we will defeat Hamas, we will make sure that they have no more 
capabilities to terrorize any of our people, any of our 
citizens, or any of our soldiers anywhere around Israel, or 
anywhere around the world.
    I woke up 12 days ago now in the middle of the night, it 
was 6:30 in the morning in Israel, understanding that we are at 
war and realizing that my youngest brother and his wife and 
four kids are in their safe room in Netiv HaAsara, adjacent to 
the Erez crossing, adjacent to Gaza--it is the closest neighbor 
to Gaza--a safe room that he stayed in for the next 12 hours, 
with firing and house-to-house manhunts by Hamas. After 12 
hours of barely hearing from him and with him having his own 
personal pistol outside of the window to make sure that 
nobody's coming at them, they managed to finally escape--
learning afterwards that their friends and neighbors two houses 
down were massacred; learning afterwards that my sister-in-
law's relative, brother-in-law, who is part of the emergency 
preparedness unit of Netiv HaAsara, was killed while taking 
action against Hamas. This is a story in a way one could say a 
good one, because they survived and they were not injured, at 
least physically. Emotionally, of course, we know them, like 
everybody else, are going to carry these scars for years to 
come.
    To date, we are talking about over 1,400 people who have 
been brutally murdered, over 3,500 that we know of and that we 
are coming out publicly with that have been injured, and over 
200 who have been kidnapped. These are not just Israelis. These 
are not just Jews. I am holding here a sheet which shows 41 
countries, of whom their people have been affected--either 
killed or injured or kidnapped, and this is what we know to 
date. There are far more that we still don't know of. I am 
holding here a few examples of names of American citizens. In 
this case, I think they are all--three of them are also 
Israeli, but are American citizens. All three of them have been 
kidnapped. There are probably more because we do not yet know 
the numbers.
    Why we do not know the numbers yet? Because we cannot 
identify all the bodies. Why we cannot identify all the bodies? 
Because they were mutilated, they were burned, they were 
hidden, they were taken away. Yes, we are at war, and we will 
win this war. We will win this war with the support to the 
international community, and first and foremost by the United 
States. I would like to take this opportunity to thank you, Mr. 
Ranking Member, and to the Commission, and to the U.S. 
Congress, and to the administration for everything that you 
have been doing up to now and you are continuing to doing as we 
speak now in support of Israel in this war against Hamas, to 
defeat Hamas.
    Understanding in the most unequivocal manner, and in the 
clearest way, that these are evil people, if we can even call 
them people. This is Israel's 9/11, only if you take the 
proportion of the size of Israel this is 9/11 times 10 at 
least. This is Israel's fight on ISIS, because some of the 
atrocities that came out from Israel, the footage that came out 
is even crazier than we saw in the darkest days of ISIS. I am 
sparing this honorable Commission from the video that we have--
that I have, portraying some of these atrocities. I have them 
available. If the Commission wishes to see them, I am more than 
happy to send it over.
    This is the face of Hamas, and this is what the whole world 
should realize and recognize. This is not just an Israeli war. 
It is not just an Israeli fight, again, which we did not start. 
Because today it is in Israel. Tomorrow, God forbid, it is in 
Ukraine, who have been suffering enough, and more than enough. 
The day after that, it could be even here in the United States. 
Because these terrorist organizations are not only against 
Israelis they are against Jews, and not only in Israel. They 
are against mankind, and anything which calls for decency, any 
entity and anybody who calls for protecting human rights, and 
protecting individuals, and protecting civilians.
    I am wearing this blue ribbon here in recognition in 
support of those who are held captive and calling for their 
immediate--immediate--release. This is one of the things that 
we are calling also on the Commission to help us push forward. 
Hamas have no value for human life. They are doing--while 
Israel is doing its utmost to protect human life, including 
Palestinians in Gaza by even calling for them to, quote, ``to 
go down south,'' so they will not be affected by the war, Hamas 
is doing everything in its power to harm civilians, to harm its 
own civilians, and everything that Hamas is committing and 
committed is no less than war crimes. If you want, war crimes 
against humanity, and this is while Israel is working within 
the international human rights law and within the military law.
    This is not just Hamas. We are seeing threats emanating 
from Hezbollah in the north. We have seen threats and terrorism 
also taking place by the Palestinian Islamic Jihad in in Gaza. 
We are seeing Iran sitting on the sidelines smiling and 
enjoying every moment of it. This is the same Iran that has 
been supporting these terrorist organizations forever, too many 
years. This is a time also to point the finger in Iran's 
direction as an entity which is responsible also for these 
things. The deterrence messages that come from the United 
States are highly important. They carry a very heavy weight. We 
are grateful for the messages that--the messages that are sent 
across, including through military maritime presence in the 
Eastern Mediterranean and other messages that I will not go 
into now. We need to continue this, because these are the 
messages that our enemies and foes-- all our enemies and foes 
understand.
    This war will take time. It is not another cycle of 
violence where we put a Band-Aid or a patch on it. The idea is, 
as I stated earlier, to eliminate the threat of Hamas once and 
for all. We are grateful for--to the United States for its 
support, including with hopefully the supplemental support 
which will come through in Congress over the next short while. 
We are grateful for the sanctions and designations on Hamas by 
the United States, including just yesterday sanctions against 
another 10 individuals. We are calling for more sanctions, more 
designations, and for other countries around the world that 
have not yet come to terms with the fact that Hamas is a 
terrorist organization to do so here now, sending a very, very 
clear message.
    The unequivocal support that we are seeing and hearing from 
Congress as well, as well as the administration, as well as so 
many countries around the world, is heartwarming. It gives us 
the tailwind to fight this war. It gives us the ability and the 
strength to win this war. Thank you very much.
    Representative Cohen: Thank you, Mr. Deputy. We appreciate 
your testimony and your work.
    I would like to ask each of you, do you either have any 
concrete knowledge of Iran's involvement in either Ukraine--we 
know in Ukraine with drones--but involvement with Hamas and 
what is going on in Israel?
    Mr. Benjamin: As we have been saying for years, Hamas and 
Iran cooperation was there and is there. We are seeing this 
very, very clearly. It comes through training of Hamas 
operatives, whether it is in Iran, whether it is in Gaza, 
whether it is in other places. We know that a very vast 
majority of the funding of Hamas comes from Iran. As I said 
earlier, Iran at this point is sitting and smiling. Seeing them 
reaching out to Hamas leaders even now today shows exactly 
where they are and what they are doing.
    Representative Cohen: Have you seen any indications that 
Russia has helped Hamas and--or through Iran, or directly?
    Mr. Benjamin: I do not know to say this in front of this 
Commission at this at this point. We are keeping a very close 
eye on all countries in the region.
    Representative Cohen: Thank you. You know, they certainly 
benefit from it. Putin's statements were less than a concerning 
and seemed less than heartfelt about what happened. He is 
smiling and what is happening now because it benefits him as 
well.
    I believe we are going to be able to have support. There 
will be some dissenting voices, but I think eventually we will 
get it. We have got to get a speaker, at least a temporary 
speaker, and hopefully that can happen in the next day or two, 
and then we can get some action. The Ukraine package I know 
will be large, and one that maybe will not have to incur issues 
with additional supplementaries. Israel, I think, it is pretty 
secure. I think we have got strong support for Israel and we 
will have that. I saw on the news, you may have seen this, 
there were two hostages that were, said, found in Gaza, killed. 
Have you heard that?
    Mr. Benjamin: I have not. I have not yet seen that. I hope 
that no hostages have been harmed physically.
    Representative Cohen: That was my next--so it was a 
grandmother and, I think, her 12-year-old granddaughter. You 
are nodding. Yes, it was on the news, and I do not know how 
they found them, but they just said they were found. You know 
of no other--
    Mr. Benjamin: Yes. This is, again, part of the cynical use 
and approach of Hamas to human lives, playing with everybody's 
minds, playing with people's souls, and with zero dignity to 
people and to human beings regardless of where they are from. 
Again, it does not matter if we are Israeli or American or 
Ukrainian, or any other nation. We are calling, as I said 
earlier, for the immediate release of every single hostage 
safely back to their homes.
    Representative Cohen: Do you believe Hamas health 
ministry's statements any more than the Ambassador believes 
Putin's statements?
    Mr. Benjamin: Absolutely not.
    Representative Cohen: Yes. They are both two of a kind. 
They are two of a kind. It is a lot of lies.
    Ambassador, we have attempted to get some moneys to from 
Putin and from the Soviet oligarchs to help rebuild Ukraine. Do 
you have any new information about that, or concerns?
    Mr. Markarova: Thank you for this question. Well, first of 
all, I think is just--it is very just that for all these 
horrible distractions, which only for one first year of war the 
World Bank estimated at 411 billion [dollars] of just physical 
destruction, that it has to be compensated and paid by the 
Russians. With regard to the Russian oligarchs, and everyone 
who finances this war, support this war, thank you to Congress, 
we already have the possibility through the court to confiscate 
it and DOJ already has moved forward with one confiscation of 
Malofeyev's money, 5.4 million [dollars], and others.
    It is going to take time, but I think the major question 
right now to discuss with all the G-7 is the sovereign assets. 
It is the Russian sovereign assets, which we know that there 
are at least, you know, in the vicinity of 300 or 400 billion 
[dollars], or maybe even more, frozen by G-7 countries, but not 
only. As we recently discovered, there is about 200 billion 
[dollars] that are frozen in the Euroclear system in Belgium. I 
am very glad that there are more renewed talks right now 
between the G-7 ministers of finance on how to confiscate and 
how to better use this money even now.
    I think we have to join forces there because, again, we are 
very grateful for the American support. We are very much 
counting on this additional supplementary budget. At the end of 
the day, it is not the American or Ukrainian or European 
taxpayers who have to pay for this. It is the Russians who have 
to pay for their damages. We look forward to working with 
Congress. We are working very actively with administration, the 
State Department, and Treasury on how to better do it. As the 
former minister of finance, I not only believe I know that it 
can be done.
    I know this is a very specific case that will not 
jeopardize the untouchability of the sovereign money, which is 
normal in the normal circumstances. This is a very specific 
case of a country that has been condemned by 154 countries in 
the U.N. for the illegal aggression we have in all three major 
cases, the cases against Russia on both aggression and genocide 
and everything else. It is only natural and just to use the 
sovereign assets as well as the private assets of the Putin's 
oligarchs to compensate and to pay this.
    Representative Cohen: Yes, I think the House Foreign 
Affairs Committee had a hearing on a bill to do that yesterday 
and collect those assets. I was--unfortunately, could not 
attend. I was with some family members of Israeli victims. I 
read something today, a gentleman who had been in Hamas at one 
time. He is now renounced them, and he said that Hamas is not 
interested in the Palestinians, uses the Palestinians, and 
really wants to have an Islamist State across the Middle East. 
Do you believe that is accurate, that Hamas is really thinking 
beyond the sea to the river, and really looking at all across 
the entire Middle East?
    Mr. Benjamin: I believe you can hear from an expert on 
Hamas in a few minutes far better than I can, and not be 
accused of being biased. Sometimes maybe Israelis are 
considered biased when they talk about these terrorist 
organizations which are out to kill us. Believe me, we are not 
biased. Hamas is holding its own people hostage. It has been 
holding its own population hostage in Gaza since 2007 when they 
took over. Ask any average Palestinian, any average Gazan who 
is willing to speak, if he is not scared of Hamas coming 
afterwards and killing him. Israel has been providing economic 
benefits for Gazans. Twenty thousand Palestinians from Gaza 
have been coming daily to work in Israel and bringing food to 
their families. That is 20,000 families make the maths. This is 
just one small example of the areas that Israel has been--has 
been investing in to help the population.
    Hamas would have nothing of that. Look at their charter of 
Hamas, which calls for destruction, annihilation of Jews, of 
Israel and, yes, wants to control everything from the 
Mediterranean Sea until the Jordan River. That is their--that 
is their aspiration. That is what they want to do, with zero 
care about civilians, including their own whom they--yes, they 
take as human shields, as we are speaking now. They are firing 
rockets from underneath hospitals, from underneath schools, 
from underneath mosques, from within residential areas, putting 
their own people at risk and sending them to die as well.
    This is not what Israel is about, but this is what Hamas is 
about and has been about. Now once and for all, unfortunately--
really unfortunately--it took such a horrific war that they 
launched on Israel for the whole world to realize what Hamas is 
really about, and what we have been saying for so many years 
that Hamas is--that Hamas stands for. It is not only Hamas. It 
is Hamas. It is the Palestinian Islamic Jihad. It is Hezbollah. 
It is all of these terrorist organizations who have zero care 
about human beings, and this is what we should--this is who we 
should go after and make sure they do not do any more harm.
    Representative Cohen: Well, I certainly agree with you. I 
think the event we had yesterday or the day before, with the 
destruction at the hospital, and the press doing a very poor 
job of reporting the information. They almost reported it as 
fact, quite a few mainstream media sources did, and then it 
flew in the Middle Eastern street as if it was fact. Now we 
see, of course, that it was not, that there was a--probably a 
Palestinian weapon that had gone awry.
    Do you think there is any way--as you say, Israel will be 
seen as biased. How could we go about trying to give that 
information? Do you think there is any ear that might be opened 
to that the argument that it was not an Israeli bomb?
    Mr. Benjamin: I call also through this esteemed Commission 
to anybody and everybody who is willing to hear and able to 
hear, do not follow the news which is sent out by Hamas or by 
the Palestinians who are supporting of Hamas in such a blind 
way, and in an automatic manner. It is very easy to come and 
accuse Israel. Israel is taking things very seriously and in a 
responsible manner. We look into these things. We check these 
things. We do not come out with fake news.
    We came out with very clear evidence that the unfortunate 
bombing of this hospital in Gaza was conducted by the 
Palestinian Islamic Jihad, by one of their rockets falling on 
this hospital. It is not the first time, far from it, of 
rockets that Hamas and PIJ are launching that the fall on 
Palestinians within Gaza. The denouncement against Israel 
from--including countries in our region--is something which is 
uncalled for, something which is, as far as we are concerned, 
intolerable. We have called them out on this. We call on the 
U.S. to call these countries out on this and out of following 
blindly statements that come out by Hamas.
    Representative Cohen: Well, thank you. I think we are going 
to have some and more information come out soon from America 
about the intelligence we had and the knowledge and the reason 
why it is just reliable information that it was a Palestinian 
rocket. We need to get that out. Hopefully we can find some 
ears that are still open, not closed in that area. It would 
have been stupid, for Israel to bomb a hospital. I mean, that 
is the first thing people would say. Well, how would they do 
that? Are they crazy? No, they are not crazy. Hamas is lying. 
That would have been the more logical thing, but people 
understand that yet.
    You have been so kind to give us your time. We know you 
have got to--you have to be somewhere, Madam Ambassador, and we 
appreciate your testimony and your time. Sir, if you would like 
to stay, you are welcome to stay, and if not, we understand it 
and appreciate your attendance. We will do everything we can to 
help.
    Mr. Benjamin: Thank you. I am going back to our war room in 
the embassy.
    Mr. Markarova: Thank you very much.
    Representative Cohen: You are welcome.
    Second panel, get ready. [Laughter.]
    [Break.]
    Representative Cohen: Thank you. We are now ready for our 
second panel.
    Our first witness will be Mr. Jamil Jaffer, the founder and 
executive director of the National Security Institute at George 
Mason. Thank you for being with us.
    Our next witness after that will be Dr. Jonathan Schanzer, 
senior vice president of Foundation for the Defense of 
Democracies, who wrote the book on Hamas. Great friend of the 
Commission. Thank you.
    Then we will hear from Mr. Dan Twining, who is the 
president of International Republican Institute.
    Mr. Jaffer, please.

 TESTIMONY OF JAMIL JAFFER, THE FOUNDER AND EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR 
       OF THE NATIONAL SECURITY INSTITUTE AT GEORGE MASON

    Dr. Jaffer: Thank you, Mr. Ranking Member, Mr. Chairman, 
Mr. Co-Chairman, thank you for having me here today to testify 
about the connections between the war between Israel and Hamas 
and the war between Russia and Ukraine. Just a moment to talk 
about the horrific terrorist attacks of 10/7. In those attacks, 
we saw 1,400 Israelis and other nationals killed in a single 
day. Two hundred kidnapped, held beneath the tunnels in Gaza. 
Thirty-one of those were Americans. Twenty of those kidnapped 
are Americans.
    It was the single deadliest day in Israel's history, single 
deadliest day for the worldwide Jewish community since the 
Holocaust. It is the equivalent over a dozen 9/11 attacks on a 
population-adjusted-basis. Let me say that again. We have about 
--or, on the day of 9/11 attacks we have about 280 million 
Americans. We lost 3,000, approximately, Americans that day. 
The Israelis lost 1,400 of their own on a population of 
approximately 9 million--over a dozen 9/11 attacks.
    It is worth remembering how our allies handled the days, 
weeks, months, and even years after those attacks. They stood 
by us. They traveled with us to every corner of the globe to 
hunt down Al-Qaida and its leadership as we took that terrorist 
organization apart. For 20 years, while we fought that global 
war on terrorism, we remained safe in this country from the 
mass-scale terrorist attack by Al-Qaida. We owe our allies the 
same. We owe them a duty of standing by them in response to 
these terrorist attacks. We owe our friends in Ukraine the same 
duty.
    They were invaded, with no cause, by Russia, itself a 
terrorist nation-State. We have stood by Ukraine, providing 
over $40 billion in security assistance over the last 2 years. 
Truth be told, we have slow-rolled that assistance. The most 
advanced weaponry that they need to win that war M-1 Abrams, F-
16s, ATACMS, HIMARS are all now getting in the fight. Had they 
been in the fight earlier, had we trained them on it earlier, 
there is a possibility that they could have pushed back harder 
on Russia, kept them out of their territory, and remove more of 
Russia from their territory thus far.
    There is a key connection between these two fights. We know 
that Iran today supplies all manner of drones to Russia in its 
fight in Ukraine. We know that Iran has troops on the ground in 
Ukraine training Russians on the use of those drones. We know 
that Iran is considering providing short-range ballistic 
missiles to Russia in that conflict. Russia, for its part, it 
has provided Iran with its primary source of conventional 
munitions and nuclear technology for the vast majority of the 
time.
    Now, the key connection between these organizations is 
important to note. It is not just Russia and Iran. It is China 
and North Korea as well. These are all globally repressive 
nation-states. They repress their own people, they hold them 
back, they give them no opportunity. Then they seek to export 
that repression to other parts of the globe, first of their 
immediate neighborhood and then more broadly across the world. 
These nations are increasingly working together. We see China 
and Russia's no limits partnership. We see President Xi saying 
to President Putin in an offhand conversation that the world 
heard that there are changes that was not seen in 100 years, 
and we--Russia and China--are leading those changes.
    We know that for decades Iran and North Korea have 
cooperated on ballistic missile and nuclear technology. We know 
that today in the fight in Gaza, Hamas is using North Korean 
rocket-propelled grenades. The reality is these globally 
repressive nation-states have long been working together. It is 
incumbent upon the United States to stand with our friends in 
Ukraine and our allies in Israel in this fight against global 
repression. Thank you for the time, and I appreciate it. I will 
take your questions afterwards. Thank you.
    Representative Cohen: Thank you for your testimony and your 
attendance.
    Dr. Schanzer, you have written the book on Hamas. I keep 
thinking of the song, the book of love--who wrote the book of 
love. [Laughter.] I am interested to hear about your book.

    TESTIMONY OF JOHNATHAN SCHANZER, SENIOR VICE PRESIDENT, 
           FOUNDATION FOR THE DEFENSE OF DEMORCRACIES

    Dr. Schanzer: That was not it. [Laughter.]
    Well, Ranking Member Cohen, members of the Commission, on 
behalf of FDD, I want to thank you for the opportunity to 
testify today. Israel has just suffered in Iran-sponsored 
massacre. Ukraine is struggling to repel Russian forces, and 
Taiwan watches with grave concern as China threatens to invade. 
America must view these three embattled democracies as 
important assets, and I must view these three adversaries as a 
threat to the U.S.-led world order.
    As we speak, there is a very real possibility of a regional 
war erupting in the Middle East. The Islamic Republic of Iran 
has armed and funded Hamas and Hezbollah, along with other 
factions in the region. Recent reports point to the existence 
of an Iranian-led nerve center in Beirut that is designed to 
help these terrorist groups target Israel more efficiently. 
Fortunately, the IDF has thwarted Iranian efforts to create a 
new terror proxy in the Golan Heights. Israel has repeatedly 
destroyed most if not all of what Iran is trying to stand up 
there. However, Iran-backed militias do remain in Syria, and 
Russia's presence in Syria has complicated all of this.
    Moscow's missile defense systems have forced Israel to take 
significant precautions in the ongoing effort to prevent the 
smuggling of advanced Iranian weapons from Syria to Lebanon. 
These are precision guided munitions. We have never seen a non-
State actor, a terrorist group, acquire these before, and 
Russia is making this more difficult. Now, the operations to 
destroy these weapons in Syria are ongoing. They often take 
place with Russian knowledge. It is an uneasy arrangement, and 
because of that, the Syrian front is still manageable, but 
Russia's role in the region is far from positive. Moscow 
continues to work closely with both Iran and Hezbollah.
    In fact, Russian-Iranian relations have deepened 
considerably since Russia's invasion of Ukraine in 2022. This 
goes beyond the sanctions-busting that was the basis of their 
relationship before all this started. Russia has received UAVs 
from Iran, which we have heard today. Tehran has sent advisors 
to train Russian personnel. Since last summer, Russia has 
launched over 2,000 Iranian UAVs into Ukraine. Moscow now wants 
to produce some of these UAVs domestically, and so Russia and 
Iran are currently working together to increase the drones' 
range and speed.
    Iran has supplied other material to Russia, like artillery 
shells and rockets. In return, Tehran wants Russia to provide 
fighter jets, and attack helicopters, and radar, and combat 
trainer aircraft, and more. Moscow has sent to Iran some 
captured Western weapons from Ukraine. These include Javelin 
and NLAW anti-tank guided missiles and Stinger MANPADS.
    Amidst all of this, on top of it all, concerns are mounting 
about a Chinese invasion of Taiwan. Beijing has openly 
intimidated the island nation. Within a 24-hour time span in 
July 16 PLA warships approached Taiwan accompanied with over 
100 different aircraft sorties. China's calculus about an 
invasion of Taiwan could be influenced heavily right now by 
what the United States does in Ukraine and in Israel. The 
landscape is clear. China, Iran, and Russia are working 
together. Our policy must be to deny them the ability to 
threaten our friends and our interests.
    What can be done? The first step is fully funding the 
Department of Defense. Congress needs to break the cycle of 
continuing resolutions and provide a more steady stream of 
resources to itself and to our allies. Washington needs a 
procurement strategy that can address supply chain 
vulnerabilities while enhancing our ability to produce critical 
materials and technology during times of crisis. We should 
learn what Israel, Ukraine, and Taiwan need to defend 
themselves.
    In the case of Israel, I can tell you now that we can 
provide several items without massive investments or new 
manufacturing. This includes precision munitions, small-
diameter bombs, Tamir interceptors for the Iron Dome, and, 
actually, it is great news. I was going to recommend it, but it 
is already happened. The United States has sent two of its Iron 
Dome batteries based in Guam to Israel, en route already.
    To combat China's aggressive rise, Congress needs to 
support viable alternatives to the Belt and Road Initiative to 
countries that need that kind of assistance around the world. 
We need to continue to strengthen the screening of large 
investments here in the United States through CFIUS, the 
Committee on Foreign investment in the United States. We should 
pass that supplemental aid bill for Ukraine that provides 
enough funding to last through the 2024 elections.
    Finally, when this crisis in Israel is over, when the dust 
settles, an Iran policy review is long overdue. Policies that 
appease the regime rather than confronting it have undeniably 
contributed to the crisis we face today. I will end here. On 
behalf of FDD, I thank you for the invitation.
    Representative Cohen: You are welcome. Thank you for 
accepting it.
    Dr. Twining, you are recognized from the International 
Republican Institute.

  TESTIMONY OF DAN TWINING, PRESIDENT, INTERNATIONAL REPUBLIC 
                           INSTITUTE

    Dr. Twining: Thank you, Mr. Cohen, members of the 
Commission. Proud to be before you today.
    The free world is under assault from an authoritarian axis 
that wants to cripple American leadership, break American 
alliances, and make the world safe for autocracy. America's 
role in the face of this coordinated campaign of authoritarian 
aggression is to restore deterrence and stand on the side of 
freedom. We can do that by serving as the arsenal of democracy 
that allows our allies in Israel and Ukraine to prevail, while 
making sure that Taiwan does not succumb to a similar assault. 
First, let's be clear: the balance of power is on our side. 
Russia and Iran are broken economies. Russia is a declining 
power that steals from its own citizens. Iran's leaders invest 
in fomenting violence and repression rather than improving the 
lives of ordinary Iranians. In contrast, the U.S. and our 
allies control some 70 percent of global GDP.
    Yet, authoritarians no longer fear American power, perhaps 
confusing our domestic political divisions for lack of 
strategic will. Our adversaries are emboldened by our 
flirtation with isolationism. American retrenchment does not 
produce local solutions to problems, it creates vacuums of 
power our enemies seek to fill, leading to larger 
conflagrations. America cannot cede the field to revisionist 
powers and violent extremists. Pull back makes the world more 
dangerous for Americans.
    Unlike democracies that seek prosperity and security 
through peace, authoritarians sow conflict abroad to distract 
their citizens from problems at home. This is true of Putin's 
war on Ukraine, China's threats against Taiwan, and Iran's 
sponsorship of terror. Hamas rules Gaza by force, spending 
their resources on weapons to attack Israel rather than on the 
needs of desperate Palestinians. Authoritarians are working 
together in novel ways. Moscow and Beijing used Hamas' assault 
not to express support for Israel but to condemn America and 
our policies. Iran is the world's leading state-sponsor of 
terror, yet China's foreign minister has expressed firm support 
for Tehran, quote, ``on issues concerning core interests.'' 
Iran arms Russia with drones to attack Ukraine.
    Vladimir Putin openly supports Xi Jinping's ambition to 
conquer Taiwan by force. China massively increased energy 
imports from Russia to offset Western sanctions and has tripled 
exports of integrated circuits to Russia. Both China and Russia 
help Iran circumvent international sanctions. China has more 
than tripled imports of Iranian oil. Russian, Chinese, and 
Iranian media amplify each other's anti-Western propaganda, 
including that Ukraine and Israel are aggressors not victims.
    It is vital not to mistake Hamas' control of Gaza with 
legitimacy. There have been no elections in Gaza since 2006. 
Hamas will not hold them because it thinks it will lose. 
Polling from September, a month ago, shows that only a quarter 
of Palestinians support Hamas leading the Palestinian people. 
Before the conflict, 77 percent of Palestinians told pollsters 
they wanted elections as soon as possible. A supermajority 
tells pollsters that Hamas is corrupt. It is a terrorist 
organization not a governing authority that seeks better lives 
for Palestinians. Residents of Gaza suffer poverty, isolation, 
and violence at its hands.
    What are the implications of these dangerous developments 
for the United States? First, if America's three greatest 
adversaries are going to actively collaborate in armed attacks 
on our allies, that's all the more reason for us to ensure that 
friendly democracies prevail in the fight. Giving Ukraine and 
Israel what they need to restore their sovereignty and security 
is essential. Appeasing aggression in one theater only invites 
belligerence in another. Make no mistake, China is watching our 
reaction to the wars on Ukraine and Israel with great interest. 
If we do not show the will and staying power to help our 
friends win, we only embolden Chinese designs in Asia. 
Defeating aggression in Europe and the Middle East is central 
to deterring aggression in Asia.
    America should be the arsenal of democracy to support 
Israel, Ukraine, and Taiwan in the face of authoritarian 
aggression. Of course, that is not all we need to do. Dictators 
fundamentally fear their own people. Our policy should much 
more strongly support the Iranian people, who yearn for 
modernity and openness not despotism and terror. We should 
stand with Ukraine, not just to repel armed aggression but 
because a successful democracy in Ukraine could transform 
Russia by showing that the cradle of Russian civilization, 
which was founded in Kyiv, thrives in freedom.
    Finally, America should double down on investing in 
responsive governance around the world. Violent extremism 
incubated in Gaza's hothouse of repression. China, Russia, and 
Iran exercise the most influence against us where governing 
elites are corrupt, media is censored, civil society is 
repressed, elections are not free, and democratic institutions 
are absent. Investing in the cause of freedom abroad is a very 
sound way to protect American security at home. Thank you, Mr. 
Chairman.

  OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. JOE WILSON, CHAIRMAN, U.S. HOUSE, 
                      FROM SOUTH CAROLINA

    Chairman Wilson: Thank you, Dr. Twining. I regret that I 
was not here on time except for one good thing, we had a full 
Foreign Affairs Committee meeting, which is remarkable in terms 
of bipartisanship, and so I quote one of our friends, 
Congresswoman Sheila Jackson Lee: ``Good news has no feet; bad 
news has wings.'' Let me tell you the good news, and indeed, it 
is bipartisan and the issues we were discussing largely with 
the regime in Tehran and the oppression of the people of Iran.
    Then as I came in, Dr. Twining, I always like to remind you 
that one of the most memorable times I ever had--experienced in 
my life, was to be an IRI, International Republican Institute, 
election observer in Bulgaria on June 10, 1990, to see the 
success of American victory in the cold war. To see what a 
vibrant country Bulgaria is today, that even Mr. Jaffer would 
not have imagined.
    This--with that in mind--also, I was really pleased to see 
you are connecting the dots. What we are into as a war we did 
not choose of dictators with rule of gun opposing democracies 
with rule of law. In that conflict, we have an axis of evil 
that you have identified, and it would be Putin, Raisi, Xi, and 
then who would ever imagine the destitute, poverty-stricken, 
slavish regime in North Korea providing weapons to Hamas? 
Dictator Un, but we can win with peace through strength.
    Since I was a bit late, I am going to show another part of 
bipartisanship that is absolutely remarkable. We are going to 
ask questions, 5 minutes, from each of us. I am actually going 
to defer, can you imagine, to the ranking member, Congressman 
Cohen, to go first.
    Representative Cohen: Thank you. In an exhibit of 
bipartisanship, I recommended you for speaker before you got 
here. [Laughter.]
    Chairman Wilson: That would be an insult. I cannot believe 
it. It is sending somebody to purgatory. That is just not good. 
[Laughter.]
    Representative Cohen: Dr. Schanzer, you wrote the book on 
Hamas. When I heard about the gentleman who said that Hamas 
wants an Islamist State, my mind went to, like, ISIS and the 
Islamic State that goes all the way to Iraq. Is their Islamic 
State that they envision that broad, or is it the land of 
Israel in the land that is presently under Palestinian control?
    Dr. Schanzer: It is a good question. I will try to unpack 
it here quickly. If you look at the charter, the charter calls 
for the liberation of Palestine. It is a mash up basically of 
Palestinian nationalism and Islamic fundamentalism or Jihadism, 
if you will. When you begin to look at the history of Hamas, as 
I have, you begin to see that, first of all, it is a splinter 
faction of the Muslim Brotherhood, which envisions global 
domination by Islam. Then you begin to look at who has trained 
and worked alongside Hamas, both in terms of funding and arming 
the group.
    Actually there we look back to the early years in the 
1990's, where Hamas was working alongside the likes of Al-Qaida 
in Sudan. You begin to get a sense of the fellow travelers of 
this organization. They all have a vision for a different kind 
of world, one in which the U.S. is no longer calling the shots 
and we are Islam reigns supreme, and so there is that element 
of this organization. Now, do not get me wrong, I think they 
would be quite content with overrunning Israel and destroying 
it with the help of Iran, its primary patron. They will be 
looking to some of these other Islamist partners. They are 
fellow travelers with Al-Qaida, the Islamic State, Iran, and 
others.
    Representative Cohen: Have you seen any influence of Russia 
in this particular Middle Eastern episode?
    Dr. Schanzer: I have not seen any direct intervention by 
Russia. I mentioned before that, you know, Hezbollah and Iran 
have worked alongside Russia in Syria, where there have also 
been some of these Shia militias that had been threatening to 
invade Israel. That is one Russian component of it. The other 
is I mean, it was interesting, there was a call between 
Vladimir Putin and Benjamin Netanyahu. I want to say it was 2 
days ago. It was professional and courteous, but it came right 
on the heels of a conversation that Putin had with Hamas, where 
they lauded him for a proposed U.N. Security Council resolution 
that condemned Israel for the ongoing violence in the Middle 
East right now, if you can just imagine that.
    Representative Cohen: Do either of you other gentlemen --
and thank you, sir--have any knowledge of Russia's involvement 
in any direct way with Middle Eastern conflict?
    Dr. Jaffer: Well, we have seen reports just in the last few 
days. We saw Ali Baraka, a Hamas spokesman, on Russia Today 
right after the 10/7 attacks talking about the fact that Russia 
was politically supporting Hamas. He noted that they have 
licenses from Russia to build Kalashnikov rifles and to--and to 
obtain ammunition. There have been claims by Ukraine that 
Russia's trained Hamas fighters. We have also seen Vladimir 
Putin back in 2006 invite Hamas leadership to Moscow and fete 
them there, and so Russia has never declared Hamas to be a 
terrorist organization. U.S. declared it to be terrorist 
organization over 20 years ago in 1997. Russia's draft 
resolution on the issue--on the ongoing war between Israel and 
Hamas does not mention the terrorist attacks themselves, if you 
can imagine. It simply talks about Israeli actions.
    It is pretty clear where Russia's loyalties lie in this 
fight. While they may have conversations with the prime 
minister, we know where Vladimir Putin stands. He sees this as 
taking a problem off his plate and putting it squarely on the 
United States. He blames actually--the Russia resolution blames 
the United States, of all things, for what is happening the 
Middle East today. Obviously, that is just wrong.
    Representative Cohen: Thank you.
    Dr Schanzer: There is one other thing I neglected to 
mention. There was one isolated report in the Israeli media, 
and I have not been able to verify it, that Putin has actually 
issued, I do not know if I would call it a direct threat, but 
he is commented on the deployment of American naval assets and 
called it a problem in the region that needs to be removed, as 
the U.S. has deployed the military there to try to help, you 
know, stand behind our Israeli allies.
    Representative Cohen: Let me throw out one other thing and 
thought, and then I am going to be at my 5 minutes, I guess. I 
should stay within my 5 minutes. I yield back.
    Chairman Wilson: Thank you very much, Congressman Cohen. I 
would like now to make my opening statement, and then, of 
course, we will defer to Congresswoman Spartz, all the way from 
Indiana. We are grateful for her service, and then I will do my 
5 minutes, and it will be strictly enforced.
    I want to thank everybody for attending this critical 
hearing today. Terrorism is defined as the unlawful use of 
violence and intimidation, especially against civilians in the 
pursuit of political aims. This hearing takes place after the 
most horrific terrorist attacks committed against Israel ever. 
Iranian regime-backed and Russia-supported Hamas has 
slaughtered, raped, kidnapped, over 1,000 people at what has 
been referred to as Israel's 9/11 and Pearl Harbor. Meanwhile, 
Putin's forces are committing terrorist attacks across Ukraine 
with civilians coming under attack by Putin's forces to commit 
mass murder, rape, and engaged in the kidnapping of Ukrainians, 
bombing schools and hospitals indiscriminately, just as they 
had done in Syria.
    This magnitude of terrorism is only possible in a world on 
fire, where deterrence has broken down, with an appearance of 
appeasement to terrorism. We are in a war that not--that we did 
not choose, as dictators with rule of gun seek to destroy 
democracies with rule of law. Hamas and their backers and 
financiers in Tehran feel empowered. The Iranian regime has 
gotten away with supplying weapons to Putin and embedding 
terrorist leaders within parliament of fragile governments 
receiving international support. They note the administration's 
willingness to negotiate with terrorists providing ransom 
money. The lessons of history are a reminder that peace comes 
only through strength, and diplomacy only works where leverage 
exists.
    Had the United States and our allies committed to supplying 
Ukraine with the weapons needed initially, it is likely the 
courageous Ukrainians would have already succeeded in removing 
Putin's forces. It is a sad truth, but the world anticipated 
Ukraine to lose, underestimating the resolve of Ukrainian 
patriots. Delays have not only prevented Ukraine from saving 
lives, but demonstrated to dictators that the United States has 
not responded seriously to attacks on our allies, and possibly 
even to ourselves. Despite Russia's terror attacks against 
Ukraine and backing from the terrorist State Iran, the United 
States surprisingly still has not recognized Russia as a State 
sponsor of terrorism.
    Russia's funding of the terrorist organization Wagner Group 
is well known, as are Putin's meetings with Hamas in Moscow in 
March of last year and just in August of--excuse me--this year. 
Hamas visiting with Putin. How clear could this be? Documented 
connections to Hezbollah in Syria. Its doctrine against Ukraine 
is one of pure terror. It targets civilians to destroy civilian 
infrastructure with the express purpose of terror. It is the 
obvious terrorist State. Why do we not label it one? Why do we 
still seek to preserve a status quo in which terrorist 
dictators states enjoy full integration with rule of law 
democracies?
    We did not choose the fight. After the cold war, every 
nation was given the opportunity to embrace democracy and enjoy 
a future of freedom and prosperity. Dozens of countries are 
free today from communism with the largest number of countries 
ever and freedom and democracy due to American military 
strength. Sadly, a network of terrorist states preferring 
genocide and barbarism were unhappy with this arrangement. Now, 
instead of appeasing these states and hoping, we must isolate 
and defeat them. The democracies of the world must close ranks 
to defeat the dictators.
    This means primarily prioritizing the three beleaguered 
democracies who are frontlines for freedom and stability. 
Israel, Ukraine, and Taiwan. These great societies cling hard 
to freedom next to neighbors who do everything they can to pry 
it from their hands. We need to understand that dictators and 
terrorists of the world are working together, a network 
consisting of Russia, the Iranian regime, Hamas, Hezbollah, and 
the Chinese Communist Party, the rule of gun. As the other 
side, we need to build a network of well-armed rule of law 
democracies and reestablish deterrence so that these terrorists 
will never consider attacking us or interrupt the ability to 
achieve peace through strength.
    Gruesomely, the first victims of dictators are the 
oppressed people of Russia, the oppressed people of Iran, and 
the oppressed people of China. Both war criminal Putin and the 
regime in Tehran and its terror groups receive weapons from the 
hermit regime of Kim Jong-un. Hamas recently used weapons 
provided by North Korea in their murderous attack on networks 
and must be stopped. I would refer you, there is an article 
either on Fox News or in New York Post with specific weapons, 
the pictures of the weapons, the description of the weapons. 
They are only made in the dictatorship in Pyongyang, and I am 
sorry, I do not have the exact identification of these weapons.
    It is extraordinary how clear this is that it does not take 
--took rocket science to figure out a bizarre-looking anti-tank 
missile which says ``Made in DPRK,'' that it is made in DPRK. 
Frequently, enemies of America and actually are very helpful to 
put it in English. I have seen downed drones from Yemen, and 
all of them were very helpful because it said ``Made in Iran.''
    With that, I now refer to Congresswoman Spartz.

     STATEMENT OF VICTORIA SPARTZ, U.S. HOUSE, FROM INDIANA

    Representative Spartz: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you 
for being here and having this important conversation, 
especially in this important times. You know, I really have not 
spent before I was in Congress much time in the Middle East. 
Just visited few times, but around what is happened in 
Afghanistan, Ukraine, I spent a little bit more time and really 
understood the importance of the region, complicated situation 
on the region, but also that significant impact Russia has to 
destabilize the region, Middle East, North Africa, and other in 
the direct way, in Syria and working with Iran, or indirect way 
in places like Libya, Sudan.
    I also realize that our policy maybe do not pay as much--we 
do not pay as much attention to how some, you know, deterrence 
used to be much stronger. You know, know a little bit more than 
enough to be dangerous, but you probably know more than I do. I 
just wanted to get each of your perspectives. What do you 
believe, as the United States, maybe we need to do better 
dealing--you know, have stronger policies and have more 
deterrences and understanding of this region, because, you 
know, ultimately, you know, Russia goal is to destabilize 
Europe, South America, you know, Middle East. I do not think 
majority our allies in other country want that. I do not think 
it is benefit and anyone. You know, they use a lot of cheap 
weapons, but a lot of lives are lost. You know, it costs not 
just, you know, a lot of money, but a lot of lives. What would 
you--just your perspective--you each of you can comment what we 
can do better? Maybe we should pay more attention to some 
developments there. Thank you.
    Representative Twining: Thank you, Congresswoman. I will 
channel Senator Whitehouse just for a minute and say cleaning 
up dirty money flows that benefit regimes like Russia, like 
Iran, like North Korea. The North Koreans make a significant 
amount of their State revenue through illicit trafficking in 
all sorts of things, right? Cleaning up dirty money flows that 
benefit dictators. Taking strategic initiative. It feels like 
the democracies are very reactive these days. We wait for the 
bad guys. We let them make the first move and then we cede the 
advantage to them in trying to cobble together a united 
response.
    Take advantage of our authoritarian adversaries' greatest 
weakness, which is fundamentally their great insecurity about 
their own people, right? I mean, you are here in the U.S. 
Congress because citizens elected you. If citizens in these 
countries had a choice, they would choose different leaders. 
That is actually true of Hamas in Gaza, which is why it has not 
had an election since it took power nearly 20 years ago. Let us 
spend much more time and energy thinking very seriously about 
defense and increasing deterrence through traditional military 
means. Let us also think about what our authoritarian 
adversaries are most afraid of.
    Dr. Schanzer: Thank you for the question. I am going to use 
the current crisis right now to sort of, I think, explain how 
America can get a win. That attack by Hamas was sponsored by 
Iran. Hamas is a[n] Iran-backed terrorist organization that 
also enjoys the support of China and Russia. As Israel has now 
readied to go into the Gaza Strip and to destroy this terrorist 
organization, with the support of the United States, we are now 
seeing Iran-backed proxies threaten a much wider war. We are 
watching Hezbollah in Lebanon, Shi'ite militias in Syria, 
potentially other groups in other parts of the region.
    What needs to happen here right now is America needs to 
determine the outcome of this conflict, and by that, I mean, it 
needs to deter Iran. It needs to deter Hezbollah, and any other 
actor that might intervene, and force them to watch helplessly 
as our ally destroys Hamas, watch them look on helplessly as 
one of their important pieces is removed from the chessboard. 
If we can do that, then I think we are now in the process of 
reestablishing deterrence after having lost it for many years.
    Dr. Jaffer: Congressman, I think it is a really important 
question you raised. I want to agree with the views expressed 
by both Dr. Twining and by Dr. Schanzer. I guess what I would 
say is, what you are seeing happening in the world today--
whether it is Russia-Ukraine, the threats by China against 
Taiwan, Iran's support of Hamas and the terrorist attacks of 
10/7, is what happens when you have a world devoid of American 
leadership. This is what happens when we abandon our allies and 
do not make our foes afraid.
    The world has watched as we failed to enforce the Syria red 
line, as we failed to support our allies in Ukraine in the 
first invasion by Vladimir Putin when he took Crimea. What 
happens when we withdrew so terribly from Iraq and Afghanistan, 
abandoning our allies who stood by us in that war. This is what 
happens when America does not lead, and we can lead. We are 
called lead. The American people want us to lead. There is a 
popular view that the American people would not support America 
going into the fight or spending the money it takes to buildup 
our military and defend our allies, both Israel and Ukraine.
    That is not true. Americans want to know why. Why it 
matters to their economic bottom line, why it matters to our 
national security. It does matter. We need leaders like you 
all, and a president who will explain it. We have not seen that 
in over a decade and a half.
    Representative Spartz: Thank you.
    Chairman Wilson: Thank you, Congresswoman Spartz, and, hey, 
Congresswoman Spartz has a unique perspective. She was born in 
the Soviet Union, now today the free, independent country of 
Ukraine. She has the distinction of being--even Senator 
Whitehouse would be surprised, the only Member of Congress who 
was born in the Soviet Union.
    We now refer to Senator Sheldon Whitehouse of Rhode Island.

STATEMENT OF SHELDON WHITEHOUSE, U.S. SENATE, FROM RHODE ISLAND

    Senator Whitehouse: Thank you very much. Pleasure to be 
with you all. Glad to see my friend Dan Twining here. Thank you 
for participating and for mentioning the importance of cleaning 
up the flow of dark money in succeeding in the clash of 
civilizations that we face right now.
    I borrow that phrase from Samuel Huntington with some 
hesitation, because I put the border line in that clash of 
civilizations in a different place. I put it between 
transparent democratic societies with rule of law and 
autocracies and kleptocracy and countries that are run by 
criminals. Unfortunately, one of the predicaments we have in 
the United States of America is that there are powerful people 
who make a lot of money aiding and abetting the dark money 
kleptocrats and autocrats. We are, in that sense, giving aid 
and comfort to our enemies, so we do need to continue to clean 
that up.
    There are two fairly specific things that I would like to 
ask you to comment on, particularly Dr. Schanzer, if I may. 
Along with Ranking Member Risch, I am the lead on the--what we 
call the REPO Act, which would authorize the president to work 
with other countries in Europe that are also home to frozen 
Russian sovereign assets and create a procedure for seizing 
those assets and directing them to Ukraine to be used for 
rebuilding and other purposes. There is, I think, mixed 
feelings in the administration about this, but they seem to be 
moving our way. I would love to have your thoughts on the value 
of grabbing those sovereign assets, not just as additional 
resources for Ukraine but also as a powerful signal to Putin 
that his behavior is going to have real punishment, and hitting 
them good and hard right in the wallet I think would be a good 
added signal.
    That the second is simply to make sure that we do a better 
job of grabbing Russian oligarch assets. We have a predicament 
right now, which is that if you are a U.S. citizen and you are 
driving down the highway and you got $400,000 in unexplained 
cash in your car, the police can pull you over and they can 
seize that. If you are a foreign Russian crooked oligarch, and 
you have a $400 million yacht someplace, you have more rights 
than that American citizen in terms of defending your yacht. 
[Laughter.] It is a very simple procedure. It is called in rem. 
You move on the yacht rather than having to chase through all 
the ownership structures. I would very much like to see us pass 
a bill that allows us to proceed against foreign oligarchs, 
criminals, and kleptocrats' assets in rem.
    Dr. Schanzer, if you would go first, and then if there is 
any time remaining, if Dan could pinch in.
    Dr. Schanzer: Sure. Thank you, Congressman Whitehouse.
    First, I want to just say that on this question of aiding 
and abetting our enemies, I think it is worth noting right now 
that we have been--we have been aiding and abetting Iran with 
appeasement, contributing to the attacks that took place on 10/
7. We have been allowing countries like Qatar and Turkey and 
Malaysia to continue to sponsor Hamas. These things need to 
stop, and I would certainly encourage this Commission to look 
at that as well. Specifically to your question--
    Senator Whitehouse: Thank you.
    Dr. Schanzer: The seizing of assets and redirecting them to 
Ukraine, I think sounds like a solid thing for the United 
States to do. I think, though, it would make sense to do this 
with a coalition of countries, so that the U.S. is not singled 
out.
    Senator Whitehouse: That is what the legislation requires. 
In fact, the bulk of the funds are actually held in European 
countries, so acting on our own would not be--
    Dr. Schanzer: It would not be effective.
    Senator Whitehouse: It would not be effective.
    Dr. Schanzer: Correct. So getting the Europeans on board--
and, by the way, getting the Europeans to chip in a bit more, 
just as we are, I think is also a very sound policy. As far as 
targeting the oligarch assets, I fully understand your 
frustration. When I worked at the Treasury Department trying to 
track those kinds of assets was never easy. We did work with a 
sort of shorthand version of if we are 80 percent sure that we 
know what we are dealing with, we are going to move first and 
then adjudicate after it has been done. By and large, that 
worked out very well during the height of the war on terror, 
and there was an urgency that I think needs to be felt now as 
we think about targeting Russian assets too.
    Senator Whitehouse: To go to--follow down my path of in 
rem, Latinate legal terms, there iis also qui tam out there, 
which allows individuals to bring fraud actions in the name of 
the United States. If it turns out there really is fraud, they 
get a share of it. It would be nice to have people who work 
for, let us say, a Russian oligarch, to be able to be paid a 
bit of a bounty if they come in and testify and say: Yup, 
definitely his boat. Every time we go out, he is on it. Every 
time the guests come, they are his guests, and we call him 
boss. Things like that can make a big difference. We are trying 
to push that as well.
    Dr. Schanzer: That sounds like something for the Rewards 
for Justice Program at the State Department. They might be able 
to expand it. We already have already bounties for those that 
provide evidence leading to arrests of terrorists. Why not 
oligarchs?
    Senator Whitehouse: Correct. I think my time has expired, 
so I will turn it back to the distinguished panel. Thank you 
very much for allowing a member of the other body to come over 
and associate with his betters. [Laughter.]
    Chairman Wilson: Hey, the whole story, we are very humbled 
to have somebody from the House of Lords come here, Okay? 
[Laughter.]
    Senator Whitehouse: So funny.
    Chairman Wilson: Thank you very much, Senator Whitehouse 
and, indeed, thank you so much for raising--we are in a clash 
of civilizations, gosh. It just--we have got to be prepared, 
and we have gone through the cold war with prospects, 
particularly for the young people out there, that we had no 
chance of succeeding. Now tens of millions of people live in 
freedom that would have never been imagined, with IRI helping 
lead the way, and NDI too, and so we appreciate that.
    Then the highest form of flattery is that Congressman Cohen 
and I have copied the Whitehouse-Risch REPO bill, and so we 
have the House version. Indeed, I think it would be great if we 
could add the rewards program to that in some way. That would 
be very, very helpful. As we are looking at the just horrible 
situation of loss--murderous loss of life, really, now in 
several such gruesome locations, one fact is that Russia, 
Putin, and Iran, Dr. Schanzer, have worked together with drones 
and other military equipment. There are sanctions against the 
Putin regime, the war criminal. With that in mind, is there 
more that can be done to block the military equipment coming 
from the regime in Tehran that oppresses the people of Iran?
    Dr. Schanzer: In short, the answer is there are huge 
numbers of things that we can do to put additional pressure on 
the regime in Iran that would inhibit its ability to move money 
and to move the technical parts necessary for these drones. 
FDD, sir, has something like 200 different recommendations on 
how to crack down on the regime. We are very happy to hand 
those to you, and they include elements of this 
nonproliferation regime, which has a lot of holes in it.
    Chairman Wilson: Well, thank you so much and, again, this 
is so bipartisan, and I look forward to working together with 
my colleagues. I do want to give one bit of good news, and that 
is that last week I was at the NATO Parliamentary Assembly in 
Copenhagen. It was just remarkable to see the unanimity of 
support for Ukraine and then something that could never be 
imagined, Sweden giving up 200 years of neutrality to address 
the dictators. Finland, with an 830-mile border, to address the 
dictators. The protection for the Baltic republics, who would 
ever have imagined?
    At the same time, Senator, it was really very encouraging, 
the support of Israel. There have been times in the past where 
our European friends have not been so unified. They were and 
are today, understanding the implications of dictatorships 
around the world, and they recognize what occurred and Israel. 
France 24 news that I was watching in English had about Pearl 
Harbor. The prime minister of Denmark spoke to us about the 
combination of Pearl Harbor and 9/11, and so there was a 
realization. Then, indeed, Mr. Jaffer, the planning for this 
October 7 attack, which coincidentally is Putin's birthday, 
with the collaboration possibly around the world, could this 
have been conducted just by indigenous members of Hamas?
    Dr. Jaffer: Thank you, Chairman Wilson. There is no way 
that Hamas could have conducted this attack without the 
support, supply of weaponry, and money from Iran. Period, full 
stop. This is the only way that organization functions. It is 
at the core of its behavior and its capability. That is exactly 
why as this fight continues, and particularly if this fight 
expands to Hezbollah in the north which is another Iranian 
proxy, we must hold the Iranian regime accountable for what is 
taking place, and so you are exactly right.
    You know, you talk--you have talked in the past about a 
collusion of dictators. We see exactly that happening here. It 
is Russia. It is Raisi. It is Kim Jong-un, and it is President 
Xi in China. They are working together across the globe 
contrary to American interests, and we have to confront them in 
that way.
    Chairman Wilson: Thank you. Indeed, American interests, 
which is the interest of civilization.
    Dr. Jaffer: That is right.
    Chairman Wilson: The thought of dictators from whether it 
be Assad, Un, or the big three, gosh, what a risk that is to 
civilization, and existential, as people are concerned about 
issues. With that, we will conclude, except for if anybody--
anyone up here, including Congressman Cohen, who just said he 
had one more question. If there any additional questions, 
Congressman Cohen.
    Representative Cohen: Thank you, Mr. Chair.
    As I understand it, Hamas' leader is in Qatar. Then I 
understand there is some type of Hamas in Turkey and maybe some 
of their leaders there. Can you tell us, where are all these 
Hamas people? The ones that are in Turkey, they have like a 
store and it says Hamas Turkey, you know, and a brand? Or were 
they hiding out in the mountains? What are they doing? 
[Laughter.]
    Dr. Schanzer: [Laughs.] It is a good question. The Qataris 
for the last 10 or 12 years have had an external headquarters. 
Some of their political leadership has been based there--Ismail 
Haniyeh and Khaled Mashal both call Qatar home. Of course, this 
is not new for the Qataris. They have also hosted all manner of 
other terrorist organizations in this kind--in that country. It 
is the Taliban, Al-Qaida, ISIS. It is well known at this point 
that Qatar is a hospitable place. They just do not agree with 
our definition of terrorism. Fundraising takes place there. All 
sorts of organizational activities take place there. People are 
free to come and go. It is a safe haven for them and it is 
extremely dangerous that we have bestowed upon that country the 
label of major non-NATO ally, and that this is allowed to 
continue.
    They are offering right now their good offices, I will put 
those in air quotes, to try to negotiate the 302 hostages--to 
try to negotiate their release. This is not in Qatari's 
interest. They are advocating on behalf of Hamas as they have 
been for a long time. This should not be allowed to stand. 
Similarly, the Turks--the Turks have an office. It is no 
storefront. They do not have, you know, in neon lettering, you 
know, Hamas Palestinian Resistance since 1988, but there is an 
office of probably several dozen people.
    These are former fighters. These are fundraisers, and in 
fact there was--if you recall the 2014 war between Hamas and 
Israel, at the end of the war there was a guy by the name of 
Saleh al-Arouri, got up in front of 1,000 people in Istanbul 
and announced that Hamas had in fact planned and executed the 
kidnapping and murder of three teens in Israel that had sparked 
the war. He was received with thunderous applause. The regime 
in Turkey is no longer befitting of the label ``NATO ally.'' 
There is a problem here that we have just held our noses and 
allowed for this to continue.
    I will even add the Lebanese. There is a--
    Audience Member: Excuse me. Excuse me.
    Representative Cohen: Excuse me. This is--get her out of 
here.
    Audience Member: Excuse me.
    Representative Cohen: Get out of here. Go home.
    Chairman Wilson: Ma'am?
    Doctor, please--hey, Doctor, please continue.
    Dr. Schanzer: Yes.
    In Lebanon, we have a similar problem. We have been funding 
the LAF, the Lebanese Armed Forces, while the country has 
allowed Hamas to be operating there. You can see the trend. 
American allies violating our trust and supporting Hamas. I 
think this is an inflection point for the United States.
    Representative Cohen: Where--if there are other places 
where Hamas leaders are, Israel has the desire to decapitate 
the leadership, to take it out. If they are in Qatar and if 
they are in Turkey, and other places, I mean, it is going to be 
kind of tough to do that, isn't it?
    Dr. Schanzer: I would not put it past the Israelis. But 
that might be for someone else to talk about. By the way, I 
mean, the Israelis have decapitated Hamas leaders that are 
active in Malaysia. We have seen that before. I suspect it will 
probably continue as Israel seeks to exact justice after the 
10/7 slaughter.
    Representative Cohen: I am going to ask you a stupid--a 
question shows my ignorance on this issue. Who is Hezbollah as 
far as there--are the Palestinians? Are they Lebanese? What are 
the nationalities, backgrounds of those folk?
    Dr. Schanzer: Hezbollah's based in Lebanon primarily, 
although they have got a significant base of operations in 
Latin America right now. Of course, they have got a lot of 
operatives running around in Tehran. They are a wholly owned 
subsidiary of the--of the regime in Iran. Just to give you a 
sense of the threat, because it right now Hezbollah is 
threatening to open up a second front with Israel. While the 
fighting rages in Gaza, in the north of Israel there is a 
second front that could very well be opened. There have been 
dozens of rockets that had been fired, dozens of anti-tank 
missiles, infiltrations into northern Israel.
    This is very disconcerting. This is one of the things that 
I think the president is trying to deter at this moment, to 
deter a second front from opening. Hezbollah is considered to 
have an army that is equal in strength to the average European 
army. It has 150,000 rockets right now facing south at Israel. 
It has got precision-guided munitions that could hit strategic 
targets, like Israel's nuclear facility or like its chemical 
plant. These are things that could create catastrophic attacks. 
We could be hours or days or weeks away from watching those 
threats materialize. This is why it is imperative right now 
that the U.S. mount the deterrence that is necessary to stare 
down Iran and to stare down Hezbollah, and to allow Israel to 
be able to do what it needs to in Gaza and hopefully end this 
crisis.
    Representative Cohen: Thank you, sir.
    Chairman Wilson: Thank you very much. Again, to reemphasize 
how bipartisan the support is for the people of Ukraine, the 
people of Taiwan, the people of Israel, on behalf of Western 
civilization, we have Congressman Marc Veasey from Texas.

        STATEMENT OF MARC VEASEY, U.S. HOUSE, FROM TEXAS

    Representative Veasey: Mr. Chairman, thank you very much. I 
want to thank the panel for being here today. There has been a 
lot of--and I know that our European counterparts that we work 
with a lot when we travel for Helsinki Committee meetings, they 
are going to be focused a lot on humanitarian efforts, 
particularly efforts around being able to move people that live 
in the--in Gaza into safe areas, you know, as Israel wants to 
advance in there to be able to root out Hamas terrorists from 
that particular region.
    I wanted to ask, I know that other countries have had to 
deal with similar issues around humanitarian crisis, and wanted 
to make sure that people that are moved into countries, that 
they--that the people that they are moving in have not been 
people that have been radicalized. It is something that we do 
before people come into the United States. We vet people. Can 
you sort of explain to us what it would--what vetting would 
look like if--because I know that the Egyptians and obviously 
Israelis are very concerned about people that may be Hamas 
sympathizers, or may even, you know, have been radicalized 
themselves and would want to commit violence, would come into 
those countries, and so they do not want that.
    What does it look like if a--if a Palestinian family of 
four is being interviewed for safe passage into a neighboring 
country or nearby country? What exactly does that look like? 
What does that processing and that vetting look like?
    Dr. Schanzer: I am going to make a suggestion here. I do 
not know how that kind of vetting can happen. You know, you are 
looking at a territory roughly the size of Washington, DC. with 
2.2 million people that had been subjected to Hamas rule for 16 
years. How you start to figure out who is Okay and who is not 
at this stage in the game, who is a threat who is not, that is 
going to be really challenging.
    I wrote a piece of The Wall Street Journal with a colleague 
of mine, Mark Dubowitz, our CEO, on Monday, and I want to make 
this suggestion. I have already identified a number of the 
countries that have been Hamas supporters over the years, those 
that have financed and provided the weapons and the training to 
Hamas. I think there should be significant pressure on those 
countries to take in the refugees. Have a clear message from 
the United States that they created this problem and it is now 
their problem to take care of with these 2 million people. 
Quite frankly, I do not care who is radicalized when they go to 
these countries that have been supporting a radical cause for 
as long as they have. I think this would be justice.
    Representative Veasey: Yes. Yes, that is interesting. Dr. 
Jaffer, do you have anything to?
    Dr. Jaffer: I mean, you know, look, the typical way this 
vetting works is you take your intelligence sources and 
methods, you obtain that information, you combine it with law 
enforcement information, and you run these folks through data 
bases as best you can. What is probably advisable in this case 
is for the Israelis and the Egyptians to work together, if in 
fact the route out is through the Rafah Border Crossing and 
into Egypt, to share information, share intelligence. We should 
provide what information we have that may be derogatory on 
these individuals as well.
    I think Dr. Schanzer's right. It is going to be a very 
difficult challenge. While this vetting is happening, they are 
not going to be able to cross into Egypt. That is going to be 
one of the challenges. Now, what Israel has done, is to provide 
that safe zone and say: Look, if you go south of the Gaza Wadi, 
we are going to focus our attacks and our effort to root out 
Hamas today, at least for now, on that northern part. This has 
got a warning that Hamas did not provide civilians in Israel. 
It is also interesting that as Israel is saying, look, Gazans 
go south, the Hamas is telling its own civilians: Stay here.
    I mean, we knew that Hamas had no regard for Israeli lives 
and American lives in Israel. They clearly have no regard for 
Palestinian lives in Gaza, because they are telling their own 
people to stay there when they know a massive attack is coming. 
That is the kind of people we are talking about. We are not 
talking about governing entity. We are not talking about a 
democratic entity. We are talking about a terrorist group, 
plain and simple. One that has been labeled a terrorist group 
by our own government for over two decades.
    Representative Veasey: Yes. Yes. No, absolutely, and 
speaking of the Rafah Crossing, I know that that is going to be 
a critical area for humanitarian supplies to come through. What 
does it look like making sure that those critical supplies that 
are needed, whether it is food, water, medicine, you know, are 
not weapons? Because I think that, again, our European allies, 
as when we go to these conferences, that is an area that they 
are going to be mainly focused on because of, you know, the 
optics and what have you that is, you know, an important part 
of this cause. We want to make sure that, you know, we do not 
become useful idiots to Hamas as they, you know, go on this 
campaign to try and annihilate Israel.
    Dr. Schanzer: It is going to be a problem. It is going to 
be a huge problem. We know that there are, I think, roughly 20 
trucks right now waiting to get through. One of them, I noted, 
has actually been sent by the Turks. I have already mentioned 
what the Turks have been up to in terms of their sponsorship of 
Hamas. I would be very careful of that, especially in light of 
the fact that just 3 weeks ago there was a news item that I 
flagged coming out of the region where a shipment from Turkey 
was sent to Gaza. It was supposed to be building materials, and 
within those building materials, they discovered tons of 
explosive materials.
    You know, you have got to vet the countries that are trying 
to provide assistance. I do not want nothing from the Qataris 
to get in. I want nothing from the Turks to get in. We should 
be working with only approved countries that have no ties to 
Hamas. That is a first step, but this is not going to be an 
easy operation. The other thing I will note is that the 
Israelis have said that they are very willing to allow for this 
assistance to come in, but they are looking for goodwill from 
the Hamas government in the Gaza Strip to release the 203 
hostages. The pressure that Israel is feeling right now to 
allow for this assistance to come in when they are getting 
nothing in return from Hamas I think should be noted by this 
Commission.
    Representative Veasey: Yes. Mr. Chairman, can I ask one 
more question?
    Chairman Wilson: Of course.
    Representative Veasey: Is there technology set up at that 
crossing to be able to do things like scan for materials that 
are coming through so it is not something that becomes a huge 
log jam there at the border as we are trying to move 
humanitarian assistance through?
    Dr. Schanzer: Yes, the Israelis have an entire agency. It 
is called COGAT, and it is designed to do exactly this, to vet 
the things that come through and to scan them. The problem is 
that no effort can work 100 percent of the time. This is not a 
hermetic seal, and so things do continue to get through that 
you do not want. Right now, the stakes are extremely high.
    Representative Veasey: Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    Chairman Wilson: Thank you, Congressman Veasey.
    We now go to Congresswoman Victoria Spartz of Indiana.
    Representative Spartz: Just a brief question. I visited 
Middle East not a long time ago, and I wanted to get your 
comments on the United Arab Emirates. It seems like they became 
a safe haven for Russia and sanctions and really got a lot of 
pro-Russian. Pro-Chinese policies developing, which is very 
concerning. I wanted to see what would be an effective way to 
deal with that, and if you can any comment on UAE.
    Dr. Schanzer: Look, the UAE has been, I think, a strong 
ally of the United States. Obviously was very heartening to see 
the way in which the UAE normalized ties with Israel. It has 
been, I think, a model. Not all Emirates are created equal 
within the UAE. Abu Dhabi is the capital, and I think there, 
the government is onside with U.S. policy. You go to Dubai, it 
is a different story. You begin to see that within each of 
these jurisdictions there are different illicit finance 
concerns and different alliances with various leaders. Dubai, 
by the way, is a safe haven for the Iranians as well. There is, 
I think, a challenge that the UAE will need to grapple with 
probably soon, that it is going to need to figure out how to 
homogenize its policies and not to allow for, you know, one 
emirate to play arsonist and the other one to play firefighter. 
This is, I think, the challenge that awaits the UAE.
    Representative Spartz: Thank you.
    Chairman Wilson: Thank you very much, Congresswoman Spartz. 
We really always appreciate your insight.
    With this too, when I came in, Dr. Twining, I was so 
pleased you were talking about the axis of dictators, and we 
are talking about the Chinese Communist Party, the regime in 
Tehran, Putin. It is really personal to me. My dad served in 
the Flying Tigers in World War II. He served in Kunming, 
Chengdu, Xian. I grew up with a great appreciation of the 
people of China. It is really heartbreaking to me to see the 
Communist Party oppression of the people in the Communist Party 
threats to Taiwan. I just--I am just really hopeful, again, 
that we can be preemptive there to create a porcupine for peace 
through strength, and then reinforce our dear friends of 
Ukraine and Israel.
    Additionally, I want to point out that Dr. Schanzer has 
been understating so much. He is being very clear in his 
statements, but I would like to read the Hamas covenant. People 
need to know, article seven, and it was August the 18, 1988. 
Our enemies are really clear, Okay? Osama bin Laden said he was 
going to attack the United States in 1999. We know that Putin 
has said in August 2021 that Ukraine did not exist. We know 
that we have--and the parliament in Tehran chants of ``Death to 
America.'' ``Death to Israel,'' in English. They are all so 
helpful to let us know these things, and, indeed, how many 
threats has Beijing made to Taipei?
    With all of that in mind, of all the declarations I have 
seen in my life I have never seen one so clear, but--and 
horrific. It is article seven of the Hamas covenant. Quote, 
``The day of judgment will not come about until Muslims fight 
Jews and kill them. Then the Jews will hide behind rocks and 
trees, and the rocks and trees will cry out, oh Muslim, there 
is a Jew hiding behind me. Come and kill him,'' end of quote. 
We are not talking about territorial acquisition. It is not 
Palestine. It is not a geographic area. It is not Gaza. It is 
not West Bank. This--what better explanation of just barbaric 
heinous hatred is--and people need to read the Hamas covenant. 
I am going to do my best so long as I can to let people know 
what a threat this is.
    As we conclude, I would like to get a picture with the 
three of you, if you would come stand behind us, because you 
look really good. [Laughter.] I would like also our staff 
people even to be in the picture. So with this, we are 
adjourned. [Sounds gavel.]
    [Whereupon, at 3:44 p.m., the hearing ended.]

                                 [all]