[Joint House and Senate Hearing, 118 Congress]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]


             VLADIMIR KARA-MURZA: PUTIN'S PERSONAL PRISONER

=======================================================================

                                HEARING

                               BEFORE THE

                      COMMISSION ON SECURITY AND 
                         COOPERATION IN EUROPE

                        U.S. HELSINKI COMMISSION

                     U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

                    ONE HUNDRED EIGHTEENTH CONGRESS

                             SECOND SESSION

                               __________

                           SEPTEMBER 20, 2023

                               __________

 Printed for the use of the Commission on Security and Cooperation in 
                                 Europe

                              [CSCE118-7]
                              
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                       Available via www.csce.gov
                       
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                    U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE                    
53-469                       WASHINGTON : 2023                    
          
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------     
                      
            COMMISSION ON SECURITY AND COOPERATION IN EUROPE

                        U.S. HELSINKI COMMISSION

             U.S. HOUSE                            U.S. SENATE

JOE WILSON, South Carolina Chairman		BEN CARDIN, Maryland Co-Chairman
STEVE COHEN, Tennessee Ranking			ROGER F. WICKER, Mississippi 
    Member					   Ranking Member
ROBERT B. ADERHOLT, Alabama			RICHARD BLUMENTHAL, Connecticut
EMANUEL CLEAVER II, Missouri			JOHN BOOZMAN, Arkansas
RUBEN GALLEGO, Arizona				JEANNE SHAHEEN, New Hampshire
RICHARD HUDSON, North Carolina			THOM TILLIS, North Carolina
MIKE LAWLER, New York				SHELDON WHITEHOUSE, Rhode Island
GWEN MOORE, Wisconsin
VICTORIA SPARTZ, Indiana
MARC VEASEY, Texas                                  

                            EXECUTIVE BRANCH
                 Department of State - to be appointed
                Department of Defense - to be appointed
                Department of Commerce - to be appointed
                        
                        
                        C  O  N  T  E  N  T  S

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                                                                   Page

                             COMMISSIONERS

Hon. Joe Wilson, Chairman, U.S. House, from South Carolina.......     1

Hon. Steve Cohen, Ranking Member, U.S. House, from Tennessee.....     3

Hon. Roger Wicker, U.S. Senate, from Mississippi.................     4

Hon. Marc Veasey, U.S. House, from Texas.........................    14

Hon. Victoria Spartz, U.S. House, from Indiana...................    16


                               WITNESSES

Evgenia Kara-Murza, Advocacy Director at the Free Russia 
  Foundation, Wife of Vladimir Kara-Murza........................     5

Meghan McCain....................................................     7

Sonya Kara-Murza, Daughter of Vladimir Kara-Murza................    10


 
             VLADIMIR KARA-MURZA: PUTIN'S PERSONAL PRISONER

                              ----------                              

   COMMISSION ON SECURITY & COOPERATION IN 
                                    EUROPE,
                          U.S. HELSINKI COMMISSION,
                                  HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES,
                                     Wednesday, September 20, 2023.

    The Hearing Was Held From 2:39 p.m. To 3:42 p.m., Room 2200 
Rayburn House Office Building, Washington, DC, Representative 
Joe Wilson [R-SC], Chairman, Commission for Security and 
Cooperation in Europe, presiding.
    Committee Members Present: Representative Joe Wilson [R-
SC], Chairman; Co-Chairman; Representative Steve Cohen [D-TN], 
Ranking Member; Senator Roger Wicker [R-MS]; Senator Richard 
Blumenthal [D-CT]; Representative Marc Veasey [D-TX]; 
Representative Victoria Spartz [R-IN].
    Witnesses: Evgenia Kara-Murza, Advocacy Director at the 
Free Russia Foundation, Wife of Vladimir Kara-Murza; Meghan 
McCain; Sonya Kara-Murza, Daughter of Vladimir Kara-Murza.

  OPENING STATEMENT OF JOE WILSON, CHAIRMAN, U.S. HOUSE, FROM 
                         SOUTH CAROLINA

    Chairman Wilson: Ladies and gentlemen, I am grateful to 
welcome everyone to this Commission on Security and Cooperation 
in Europe organizational meeting relative to ``Vladimir Kara-
Murza: Putin's Personal Prisoner''--a hearing on a very 
important individual, and a time in history that could not be 
more important to raise the issue of the unjust imprisonment.
    With this, I am really grateful to my colleagues. We have 
Senator Richard Blumenthal here. He was first and we are 
beginning late because we had votes in the House. We are here 
and because this is so critical and so important. I am very 
grateful Senator Roger Wicker, also a distinguished member of 
the Commission, and then as an indication of how bipartisan 
this is, Congressman Steven Cohen of Tennessee. It really is 
reflective today of Republicans and Democrats together in a 
bipartisan manner to show our appreciation for the courage of 
the Kara-Murza family.
    With that, I am grateful to hold a hearing to highlight a 
hero for human rights and democracy, Vladimir Kara-Murza. 
Vladimir is a Russian politician, thinker, journalist, writer, 
and advocate who has devoted his life to making Russia are 
freer, a more democratic, more pluralistic, more friendly to 
its neighbors, fairer place. In the process, he made the world 
a better place as well. An optimist by nature, he never gave up 
on the principles, values of democracy and rule of law in his 
trust in the people of Russia. Vladimir is one of the voices 
that advocated for the groundbreaking Magnitsky Act. This 
historic act made the lives of all human rights violators in 
the world much more difficult, gave a tool to the victims to 
pursue justice that they have been denied before. Vladimir 
stood shoulder-to-shoulder with Boris Nemtsov, who was 
assassinated a few hundred feet from the Kremlin for opposing 
the oppressive, cruel regime of war criminal Vladimir Putin.
    Vladimir was one of the very few public voices emanating 
from Russia who unequivocally condemned the illegal annexation 
of Crimea and has consistently spoken out in support of Ukraine 
and Ukrainians. As the true hero that he is, he has paid, 
sadly, a dear price for his work. He was poisoned not once, but 
twice, and survived the assassination attempts. His wife, 
Evgenia, who is here today--I am so grateful--is present and 
can speak to the horrors of the living minute to minute not 
knowing if Vladimir would survive. Thank God he did survive. He 
lived too, among others, to be hypercritical of the Kremlin's 
murderous war against Ukraine. He used every opportunity and 
every platform to tell the world this war is nothing but an 
unjustified act of aggression carried out by war criminal 
Putin, drunk on unchecked power.
    In April 2022, he was arrested and then convicted on bogus 
charges to 25 years in prison, maximum possible. His show trial 
was reminiscent of the Stalin-era proceedings. Throughout all 
of this, Vladimir only extended--or, exuded a dignity and 
competence in his beliefs. He publicly stood with courageous 
Ukrainians and Russian citizens who opposed the regime and the 
war. Now this hero is being transferred from a prison in Moscow 
to an unknown location. We do not know where he will be, or 
whether he will have his lawyers to have access to him. He has 
now spent more than 300 days in Putin's prisons.
    Months ago, this past April, my colleagues and I spoke with 
Evgenia and we learned of Vladimir's quickly deteriorating 
health. We reacted swiftly and requested that he be designated 
under the Levinson Act. Vladimir is a legal permanent resident 
whose wife and children are U.S. citizens. It is undisputed 
that he can be designated. That would energize efforts to bring 
Vladimir home. Yet the State Department has failed to designate 
Vladimir through the Levinson Act. Moreover, the undersecretary 
of State, who we were told in April was responsible for making 
the decision, did not return our urgent calls for making a 
decision. She then left her job without ever personally 
responding to us.
    For today's hearing, we invited Secretary Blinken or a 
State Department representative to be here to address this--now 
more than ever--this urgent manner. Yet, as you can see, even 
though the State Department is a few miles away, and Valdimir's 
health continues to deteriorate, they are not here. Vladimir's 
health and freedom are not matters that can wait for diplomatic 
niceties or slow bureaucratic processes.
    That is why, following the lack of activity on part of the 
State Department, Ranking Member Representative Cohen and I 
today introduced the Vladimir Kara-Murza Action and Freedom 
Act. It will require that the Department of State designate 
Vladimir a wrongfully detained person in thirty days after the 
adoption of the bill. Or if they fail to do so, they must 
finally--after our months of congressional request--report 
their rationale for failing to use all tools to secure his 
release. Last, they will be required to report every 6 months 
until Vladimir is designated or finally free.
    We have tried to engage the department in this manner in 
bicameral and bipartisan letters with sixty-nine members of the 
U.S. House and Senate, to have asked for the designation. We 
have not received a clear response as to why they failed to act 
with a time sense of urgency and dignitary. I would like to 
point out that, indeed, on the front it is signed in such a 
bipartisan manner with Senator Roger Wicker and Senator Ben 
Cardin. The so-called equal branch of government, we now move 
to legislate that the Department of State finally act, 
explaining efforts to Congress, and do everything possible to 
reunite Vladimir Kara-Murza with his family.
    We are grateful to have with us today two extraordinary 
courageous witnesses and advocates for human rights and 
freedom--Vladimir's wife, thank you very much for being here, 
and Meghan Kelly [sic; McCain], the daughter of the late U.S. 
Senator and American hero John McCain. I thank them for their 
time and expertise, and now yield to the ranking member, Steve 
Cohen, for his opening remarks.

  STATEMENT OF STEVE COHEN, RANKING MEMBER, U.S. HOUSE, FROM 
                           TENNESSEE

    Representative Cohen: Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank you for 
holding this hearing.
    There is nobody that I hold in higher esteem than Vladimir 
Kara-Murza. He is, indeed, a hero of the world, and a hero of 
democracy, and a hero of people who stand up for free speech 
and for democracy. He went back to Russia, even though he had 
twice been poisoned. He told me he had to go back because he is 
a Russian politician, and a Russian patriot. He wanted to see 
his country operate with democracy, and he thought it could. He 
thought he could do that better being in Russia than being in 
the United States.
    I would cautioned him for his own safety, and I think 
others had as well. He was indeed driven to do the right thing. 
That is the thing that heroes do, and people that we should 
admire. They are driven by their conscience, the focus that 
they have in their minds of what is proper and what is right. 
He did it. He went back, and he was arrested by the Russians. 
First, for just evading the police, whether true or not. 
Probably not true, and now he is looking at 25 years in prison.
    We have been trying to get him designated under the 
Lewinsky [sic; Levinson] Act as wrongfully detained. The State 
Department has not given us a reason why not. They just assured 
us that they have done everything within their power to get 
his--get him released, and to see that he is treated properly. 
They maintain contact with him. All that is fine and good, but 
why they will not answer our question is beyond me. We are 
members of the U.S. Congress, and if we ask the Secretary of 
State to give us a response to such an issue, the Secretary of 
State should respond.
    They made the gentleman, whose last name I cannot 
pronounce, Paul, who was in the Hotel Rwanda, who was not an 
American citizen either--the same status, I believe, as 
Vladimir. They made him a wrongfully detained citizen. If they 
can--and he should have been. I was certainly an advocate of 
his cause as well. He was a political prisoner. They should do 
it for Vladimir, and whether--it is not going to get him home 
immediately. We do this and it is not like Putin's going to 
say, oh, he is wrongfully detained, I should release him. That 
is not going to happen. Regardless, it is an arrow we could 
have in our quiver, and we should have every arrow that we can 
have in that quiver because that gives an additional ground to 
make our arguments.
    I am in favor of certainly his release as soon as possible, 
and for the State Department to act. Why they are not acting is 
beyond me. Why they have not given F-16s earlier to Ukraine, 
why they have not given the ATACMS earlier to Ukraine, why they 
had been slow in almost everything they have done with Ukraine. 
We have been great with Ukraine, and we have given them lots of 
weapons, and all that is great and wonderful. Time is of the 
essence and time is of the essence in Vladimir Kara-Murza's 
freedom.
    I yield back the balance of my time.
    Chairman Wilson: Thank you very much, Congressman Cohen.
    We now proceed with an opening statement by Senator Roger 
Wicker of Mississippi.

 STATEMENT OF ROGER WICKER, RANKING MEMBER, U.S. SENATE, FROM 
                          MISSISSIPPI

    Senator Wicker: Well, let me be very brief, because we are 
here to hear Ms. Meghan McCain and Ms. Evgenia Kara-Murza. Let 
me subscribe in full to the opening statements of Chairman 
Wilson and my friend from Shelby County, Tennessee, Mr. Cohen. 
Vladimir Kara-Murza will go down in history as one of the great 
freedom fighters in the history of Russia. He is a hero. He is 
heroic and courageous, spiritually, physically. He is one of 
the most articulate spokesmen I have ever heard to speak on 
behalf of freedom and on behalf of what we aspire to for the 
Russian people.
    It is a miracle that Vladimir Kara-Murza is alive today. 
What we are hoping for now is a third miracle. Vladimir Putin 
is well known to have poisoned his enemies routinely in Russia. 
He is well known to have imprisoned dissidents, not because of 
any act that they have done against the State of Russia but 
because of their political views in favor of freedom. Something 
deep inside Vladimir Kara-Murza caused him, as Mr. Cohen said, 
to go back, in the face of almost certain incarceration, to 
shine more light on the illegality, on the brutality, on the 
war criminality of the Putin regime.
    The State Department should be listening today to the 
elected representatives both in the House and Senate, who once 
again call upon this administration to designate Mr. Kara-Murza 
under the Levinson Act and to heighten this case in terms of 
international attention. Why have they not done so, 
Representative Cohen? It is harder work. We are calling on the 
State Department to get involved at a higher level, at a more 
intense level in this regard. In doing so, we may be able to 
effect another third miracle for Vladimir. Also in doing so, we 
will do as he has hoped. That is, shine the light of 
international attention on the corruption, on the brutality, 
and on the totalitarianism of the Putin regime.
    Thank you to both of our distinguished witnesses. We 
appreciate you coming forward and speaking up.
    Chairman Wilson: Thank you, Senator Roger Wicker.
    We have also been joined by Congressman Marc Veasey of 
Texas. I was so happy to see Senator Blumenthal that I forgot 
to mention, I am Joe Wilson, Member of Congress from South 
Carolina. [Laughter.] I was so happy. I was so impressed that 
he beat us here. This is unheard of, and so, but bottom line, 
it shows the significance of this hearing today, the members 
that are attending.
    What we will do is have a presentation from each of you, 
and we would like to keep it at 5 minutes each. What we would 
do if there is additional comments to submit it to the record. 
Then we will proceed alternating House, Senate and both 
political parties as we proceed. We will begin, of course, with 
Ms. Evgenia Kara-Murza, and just your courage is so much 
appreciated. Thank you.

 STATEMENT OF EVGENIA KARA-MURZA ADVOCACY DIRECTOR AT THE FREE 
         RUSSIA FOUNDATION, WIFE OF VLADIMIR KARA-MURZA

    Ms. E. Kara-Murza: Thank you very much, Chairman. Chairman 
Wilson, Members of Congress, ladies and gentlemen, dear 
friends, I am addressing you today because almost 20 years ago 
I married a man of integrity. A man whose words and beliefs 
have always been in alignment with his actions. You all know 
Vladimir. I know that you respect him for his clear and 
courageous voice and his principled and unequivocal stand, the 
sincerity of which has never raised any doubts. This man today 
needs my voice to continue carrying his message from a Russian 
prison because, having survived two assassination attacks by a 
team of FSB operatives in the service of the Russian State, he 
was unlawfully charged, tried, and sentenced to a quarter of a 
century in strict regime for so-called high treason.
    Back in 2010, together with his friend and colleague Boris 
Nemtsov, Vladimir joined the campaign for the introduction of 
the Magnitsky legislation launched by William Browder. That 
campaign, born out of the determination to find justice for 
Sergei Magnitsky, brutally murdered in a Moscow prison in 2009, 
has given the world a powerful and revolutionary tool to bring 
to accountability human rights violators around the world. The 
Russian regime fully realized the revolutionary nature of the 
tool that was being created and would be used against it. It 
also realized that those involved in the advocacy for the 
Magnitsky legislation would not be silenced--would not be 
scared into silence.
    These people were seen as a direct, existential threat to 
the regime. In February 2015, Boris Nemtsov was assassinated on 
the Bolshoi Moskvoetsky Bridge in Moscow. Three months after 
that, my husband Vladimir was poisoned for the first time. He 
ended up in a coma with multiple organ failure and was given a 
5 percent survival chance. He beat all the odds, though. He 
relearned learned how to walk, took his cane, and went back to 
Russia to continue his fight.
    A second attack happened in 2017, leaving him yet again in 
a coma with yet another multiple organ failure. Thanks to an 
independent investigation by Bellingcat, The Insider, and Der 
Spiegel, we now know not only the names but the faces of those 
FSB operatives, of a team of assassins in the service of the 
Russian State, that had been following him before the attacks. 
The same team that had been following Boris Nemtsov before his 
assassination. The same team that poisoned Alexy Navalny with 
Novichok.
    These poisonings left Vladimir with peripheral nerve 
damage, which however was not an obstacle to him continuing his 
work. Moreover, these assassination attempts only further 
convinced him that his work must indeed be important and 
effective to attract this kind of attention from the Kremlin. 
Last year, after the full-scale invasion of Ukraine, Vladimir 
believed it is his duty as a Russian politician to show by his 
own example that giving into fear and intimidation is always a 
choice, even in the face of the well-oiled and increasingly 
cruel repressive machine of Vladimir Putin. Indeed, in the 
words of great American statesman, Senator John McCain, courage 
is not the absence of fear, but the capacity to act despite our 
fears.
    Vladimir's speeches that served as grounds for criminal 
charges against him publicly denounced the war crimes committed 
by the Russian army, called for the creation of a Nuremberg-
style tribunal to prosecute those responsible for the act of 
aggression against Ukraine, and raised awareness about the 
rising number of political prisoners in the Russian Federation, 
total censorship of the media, and the de facto destruction of 
the Russian constitution through a so-called referendum.
    As Vladimir wrote from prison, and I quote, ``According to 
the indictment, my speeches threatened the security and 
constitutional order of the Russian Federation, damaged the 
international reputation of the Russian Federation, and gave 
Russia an image as an aggressor State in the eyes of the 
international community. While flattered by the investigative 
committee's assessment of my influence, I must admit that Putin 
has done a much better job on all three counts than I ever 
could,'' end of quote.
    After 18 months in detention, not to mention the time that 
he spent in a disciplinary cell that measured nine feet by four 
and a half feet, Vladimir lost almost 55 pounds and his 
polyneuropathy symptoms that were initially caused by the two 
poisonings in the past have not only returned but spread to 
both his feet. Under the Russian law, polyneuropathy is on the 
list of medical conditions that should prevent his 
incarceration, because it can lead to paralysis. Of course, the 
Russian authorities do not seem bothered by that fact.
    Quite fittingly, Vladimir was tried by Judge Sergey 
Podoprigorov, sanctioned under the Magnitsky law because in 
2008, as a judge at Moscow's Tverskoy Court, he unlawfully sent 
Sergei Magnitsky to detention to the Butryka prison. The head 
of Butryka prison at the time, Dmitry Komnov, ordered the use 
of torture and denied Sergei medical care, as the result of 
which Sergei died. After Vladimir's arrest, Komnov, also on the 
Magnitsky List, became the head of Moscow's pretrial detention 
center, where Valdimir was held until his transfer to a penal 
colony--to a strict regime penal colony in Siberia, 2 days 
before his birthday. No doubt to prevent him from receiving 
words of encouragement and support from all over the world, 
including from his own children.
    Thus, two people under Magnitsky sanctions for being 
complicit in the murder of Sergei Magnitsky, handled the case 
of my husband, a fierce campaigner for the introduction of the 
Magnitsky legislation since 2010. And if this were not cynical 
and ridiculous enough, the trial was held behind closed doors 
because, in the words of the prosecutor, Boris Loktionov, and I 
quote, ``Kara-Murza wants to use the courtroom as a tribune to 
publicly discredit the existing regime with the help of CIA and 
MI6,'' end of quote. The entire case against my husband is an 
act of cynical vengeance by the Putin regime, which proves that 
my husband's work has indeed been important and effective. It 
also shows that his life is in grave danger. They have already 
tried to kill him twice, and I have no reason to believe that 
they will not try again.
    Today, Vladimir's somewhere in Siberia, about 2,000 miles 
away from Moscow, with no contact with his lawyers, let alone 
his family members. The United States has a longstanding and 
noble tradition of helping free Soviet prisoners of conscience, 
even at times of mutual bilateral animosity. Among those who 
owe the freedom to such advocacy are Vladimir Bukovsky, Natan 
Sharansky, Yuri Orlov, Alexander Ginzburg, Andrei Sakharov, 
Vladimir Dremlyuga. U.S. presidents of both parties did not 
just save their lives, although of course there is nothing more 
precious than a human life. They also sent a powerful message 
to the Soviet leaders that the United States realizes the 
inhuman nature of the Soviet regime and stands with courageous 
people who have a different vision of Russia.
    Today, Vladimir Putin is leading two wars at the same time, 
against Ukraine and against Russian civil society. I am often 
asked if there is an alternative to Vladimir Putin. Only a 
democratic Russia is the key to peace and stability in that 
region. People like my husband, who are risking their freedom 
and very often their lives, to fight for the rule of law and 
respect for human rights are the face of the different Russia 
that everyone wants to see. I call on all of you to use all 
available instruments to ensure that the voices of such 
visionaries are heard and that their lives are saved.
    People like my husband are an alternative to Vladimir 
Putin. Do not let Vladimir Putin destroy this alternative. I 
thank you very much for your attention, and for giving me all 
the support that you have been giving our family over the past 
absolutely horrendous 17, almost 18, months. If the chairman 
allows it, Vladimir's and my daughter Sonya, would be very 
grateful for an opportunity to say just a few words on her 
behalf and on behalf of her siblings. Thank you very much.
    Chairman Wilson: Indeed, thank you, Evgenia, for your 
courage to be here today.
    Just so grateful that we can proceed immediately with 
Meghan McCain and then proceed.

                   STATEMENT OF MEGHAN McCAIN

    Ms. McCain: Thank you to members of the Helsinki 
Commission.
    Chairman Wilson: Yes. Mmm hmm.
    Ms. McCain: Thank you to members of the Helsinki Commission 
for the opportunity to speak today.
    I come before you for two reasons. The first is to speak 
for the freedom of a warrior, a patriot, and most important a 
friend. Vladimir Kara-Murza is all three, and the reward for 
his virtue is the martyr's crown. He is imprisoned for a 
promised quarter of a century in a hellish confinement of 
Russia's vast prison system.
    The other reason I speak today is to urge the United States 
Department of State to do the right thing for this hero--a hero 
who, in working on behalf of a Russia in chains, also works on 
behalf of peace and security for us all. It is not enough for 
the government of the United States to have sympathy for 
Vladimir Kara-Murza; it must act. [Comes on mic.] The surest 
path to compelling that action is for the Department of State 
to designate him immediately a wrongfully or illegally detained 
person. This designation would compel the United States to 
undertake specific measures to seek his freedom. Without those 
steps without that attention, without those demands from 
America to the Russian regime, Valdimir Kara-Murza faces a 
lifetime in chains.
    Understanding why Vladimir Kara-Murza is imprisoned is 
understanding the plight of Russia itself. The story of that 
great nation across the past century-plus is a story of a 
people betrayed. A country sending forth to the world moral 
giants like Dostoyevsky and the Grand Duchess Elizabeth, to say 
nothing of artistic titans like Tchaikovsky and Tolstoy, was a 
foundry of culture and civilization precisely because of a 
flourishing heterodoxy that arose even under an autocratic 
system.
    Russia is never a model of good governance but it was once 
a nation of cultural genius that stood as a full equal and by 
that metric to absolutely any in the world. The dead and bloody 
hand of communism, followed by the iron grip of Putinism, has 
stripped Russia of its glory and plunged that nation into a 
gray winter that persists to this day.
    It is a long century still unfinished of war and 
repression. We hear a lot about a talk of Russia's victims. 
There is a long list, from Poles to Balts to Georgians to 
Chechnyans to most especially Ukrainians. They all deserve 
better.
    It is all true but Russia also deserves better. In the 
depth of winter, though, there are signs of spring and Vladimir 
Kara-Murza is one of those signs and that is why he is a 
prisoner today. You all know the story of Vladimir Kara-Murza's 
brave life and if you do not, you ought to. In a society mostly 
cowed into submission by the evil repression of Vladimir Kara-
Murza, Vladimir Kara-Murza had no fear of speaking.
    Let me amend that. Even when he spoke, even when he felt 
that fear, that is the true definition of courage, I think--
knowing the risk and feeling the danger and doing the right 
thing anyway as he has done.
    Most people will go along with the path of least resistance 
in life because it is our nature and it is in our interest. 
When we think of what we hold dear--our families, our children, 
our homes--few can be blamed for refusing to risk them against 
overwhelming power, and when that power is in the hands of a 
dictator who does not hesitate to humiliate and to kill the 
rational choice of submission is immeasurably strengthened.
    Vladimir Kara-Murza is a different kind of man. He did not 
do the rational thing. He did the right thing. He did not love 
the things of life any less than the rest of us. He loved his 
freedom. He adores his wife and my good friend, Evgenia. He 
treasures his three children. This is the stuff of a good life, 
my friends. He has another love too which is his Nation, his 
people, his country, his Russia, and that love, that 
patriotism, is a direct reflection of his love for his family.
    Vladimir Kara-Murza knows that his wife and his children 
and his fellow Russians will never be free until Russia is 
free. We have all read the biblical passage on no greater love 
than this. Well, Vladimir Kara-Murza suffers in a dark cell 
this very moment because he possesses that love, and he 
possesses it how he suffers.
    They have persecuted him. They have pursued him. They have 
poisoned him twice, and they have now imprisoned him. The 
moment of his imprisonment after years of his public critique 
of the Putin regime was no accident. The Russian invasion of 
Ukraine is a tragedy beyond itself, and beyond the battlefields 
of that stricken land it plunged Europe into the dark night of 
its own past, of fear and violence and armament.
    Within Russia itself the unprovoked invasion of Ukraine 
provided the regime's pretext for further repression, for more 
suppression, for expanded tyranny. If Vladimir Putin was an 
autocrat in peacetime he has become a tyrant in wartime, the 
tyrant to whom Vladimir Kara-Murza stood up nearly alone and 
denounced as the regime of murderers and was subsequently 
arrested within hours.
    The despotism of Vladimir Putin can, it seems, withstand 
many blows and it can withstand international sanctions. It can 
withstand global ostracism. It can withstand the deaths of 
hundreds of thousands of its own hapless soldiers and it can 
withstand Ukrainian drone strikes in the heart of Moscow 
itself.
    It cannot, however, withstand one Russian patriot who dares 
to tell the truth. We as Americans must now designate Vladimir 
Kara-Murza a wrongfully or illegally detained person under 
statute, not as a gesture of sympathy but as an expression of 
interest.
    The American interest is directly and materially advanced 
when America stands up for the prisoners and of conscience in 
other lands, especially in the lands of hostile and anti-
American regimes. There is no doubt that Russia now is in 
control by a regime deeply hostile to the United States and 
dedicated to the overthrow of the American place in the world.
    We do not have to speculate on this point. We can simply 
listen to the dictator's own words. We also do not have to 
encounter the means of defeating that regime as some sort of 
mystery because the template was established a long time ago.
    The United States assumed a historic role as a beacon of 
hope and refuge and moral sustenance for Russian patriots 
opposing Kremlin dictators from the late 1940's onward and the 
effort has worked. If we took a holiday from that role for a 
shortened generation after 1991 it was in good faith as we all 
had hoped that Russia would at least have a regime worthy of 
the greatness of the Russians.
    We must all live in realism and acknowledge that it does 
not. Set aside the historic culture and achievements of the 
Russian nation and the squalid-based and distinguished reality 
of the Russian regime. Its cruelty, its greed, and its 
unlimited willingness to squander the precious lives of its own 
citizenry speaks to its nature and its fundamental 
illegitimacy.
    That is why men like Vladimir Kara-Murza must stand up 
again and that is why the United States must step up into the 
role of their advocates and champions. It is not in our 
interest and certainly not within our capability to dictate to 
Russia what sort of government it has. It is well within our 
interest and capability to both defend the Russians who work 
today--toward the day when Russians may actually rule 
themselves.
    Designating Vladimir Kara-Murza a wrongfully or illegally 
detained person does not immediately change his material 
condition. It does not warm his cell, it does not improve his 
food, and it does not give him another minute with his 
children.
    It does improve his moral condition. In the camps and 
warrens of the new gulag news will filter in. When the United 
States stands up for him with mandated actions in addition to 
sympathetic words he will know. It will be strength for him in 
imprisonment, in which hope is as precious as bread.
    Understand this. We are not just helping him in doing this. 
We are going to help ourselves. We help ourselves because this 
is America's best self, the city on a hill put into action, and 
the stuff of the spirit matters more than of any other factor 
and any calculus.
    Do not believe me on this point? Ask the Americans of 
Valley Forge, the Alamo, Bastogne, and the Hanoi Hilton. We 
help ourselves too because nothing weakens the regimes of our 
enemies more than men like Vladimir Kara-Murza. He is at once 
poison to dictators and medicine to the oppressed. In a 
dangerous world with America's enemies circling about we can 
deal one of those enemies a defeat at no real cost with a mere 
statement of truth.
    Vladimir Kara-Murza is a wrongfully or illegally detained 
person. The State Department ought to say it, America ought to 
act upon it, and as American, as a friend, it is my honor to 
call you to this action right now. Thank you.
    Chairman Wilson: Thank you very much, Ms. McCain, and we 
appreciate your insight.
    With unanimous consent, we will invite Sonya Kara-Murza to 
please come forward.
    As she is coming forward, we have been joined by 
Congresswoman Victoria Spartz of Indiana, who has been such a 
valuable member of this Commission with the extraordinary 
insight of having been born in the Soviet Union and actually 
now so grateful to point out her birth and free an independent 
Ukraine.
    Congresswoman, thank you for being here, and we proceed 
with Ms. Kara-Murza.

 STATEMENT OF SONYA KARA-MURZA, DAUGHTER OF VLADAMIR KARA-MURZA

    Ms. Kara-Murza: Chairman Wilson, Members of Congress, 
ladies and gentlemen, my name is Sonya Kara-Murza and I am very 
grateful for this opportunity to say a few words on behalf of 
myself and my siblings.
    My father has a passion. He works incredibly hard every 
single day trying to achieve his goal, the goal of freeing 
those tied in Putin's knots, the goal of a peaceful and hopeful 
future for Russia.
    My mother, my siblings, and I are dual American-Russian 
citizens and my father is a green card holder, and here in the 
United States we lived like any other family until this was 
taken away from us. A nice cozy home filled with love, my 
family has always shown involvement and care for our community 
in Stanardsville, Virginia, where we have lived for the past 14 
years.
    We were all taught how to fluently speak, write, and 
understand English and we have all gone to an American public 
school our entire lives where every day me and my siblings 
arrive on a big yellow bus and are taught just like any other 
kid living in America.
    My father also taught me a lot. When I was three, he taught 
me just how good Russian peenlay [ph] could taste. When I was 
six, he taught me how to celebrate when you win a round of 
dominos. This was also the year he was poisoned for the first 
time.
    When I was eight, he taught me how to stop myself from 
falling while ice skating, the same year he was poisoned for 
the second time. Every once in a while we would go on father-
daughter days where we would spend time together because 
although his work means so much to him his family has his whole 
heart, and throughout all these years he has been teaching us 
the importance of bravery and also that bravery often comes at 
a high cost.
    My younger brother Daniel is only 11 today. My father has 
so much that he needs to teach him, so many memories to make 
with him. He should not be torn away from his family because of 
Vladimir Putin's ego.
    My father is a Russian politician and is where he is today 
because of his incredible courage and strength. This has 
already cost our family so much. His books, his pens, his 
favorite chair in his home office are all collecting dust. The 
worst of it all is that he is in the hands of the people who 
have already tried to kill him twice and now we do not even 
know where he is.
    Loving families should not be thousands of miles apart but 
all together in the safety and comfort of their own home. He 
has already missed so much and we all miss him terribly every 
single day. Please bring my father back home.
    Chairman Wilson: Sonya, thank you so much for your courage 
to be here today, and I know that somehow your dad's going to 
know that you made this appearance today and what an 
inspiration it will be to him and an inspiration to the Russian 
people, and so thank you so much.
    We will now proceed with each member of the panel having 
strictly enforced 5 minutes in terms of questions, and I will 
begin and then I will immediately defer to my good friend all 
the way from Memphis, Tennessee by the name of Steve Cohen.
    With this in mind, I want to--Evgenia, I want you to be 
aware that I truly believe that we are in a culture today that 
is never occurred before and that is that war crimes we 
document today as never before. There is never been a conflict 
of any type that has had the ability of ordinary citizens to be 
present to be able to record war crimes immediately.
    Additionally, we have the benefit too as you have 
identified too and that is facial recognition and then we have 
the ability of determining chain of command. Indeed, I believe 
there will be war crimes to proceed in the future and with the 
help of people around the world.
    Then I am really grateful, Meghan, your citing very 
correctly to me a great culture betrayed by war criminal Putin 
and it is just so sad and equally that, indeed, that Vladimir 
Kara-Murza is a hero for the for the Russian people. I take it 
personally myself. Chelyabinsk is their sister city in my home 
city, Columbia, South Carolina.
    I have had wonderful visits and I thought the people I met 
were fantastic, to St. Petersburg, to Tomsk, Omsk, Moscow 
itself, and then I still cherish visiting Novosibirsk where 
they had a sign in English as you came into the city years ago 
now --I think it is been removed--and that is ``Welcome to 
Novosibirsk, the Chicago of Siberia.''
    That is the way it should be. We should note--I felt the 
people I met in Russia I just really hope and with Vladimir's 
courage that 1 day they will be free. With that in mind, it 
really has been distressing, Evgenia, to know the medical 
condition and then to find out that it should be grounds for 
release.
    What is the latest on your--on Vladimir's medical 
condition?
    Ms. E. Kara-Murza: Thank you very much for your kind words 
and for your words of hope for a different Russia.
    I believe that we will get there because I am married to a 
great man who believes that and his belief is pretty 
contagious.
    To answer your question, the last time Vladimir's lawyers 
saw him was on August 28. On September 4 when they came to 
visit him in the detention center in Moscow they were told that 
he was no longer there.
    On September the 6 we received a letter--an official letter 
that said that he was being transferred to Siberia to the Omsk 
region. Now, transfers are probably one of the most dangerous 
periods in the life--in the lives of political prisoners in 
Russia because under Russian law there is no set time limit on 
transfers so they can last for months, and also the Russian 
authorities are not required by law to provide any information 
about a person's whereabouts, his State of health, and any 
other information to either person's lawyers or his family 
during transfer.
    Until Vladimir reaches the final point, the final 
destination, that strict regime prison colony somewhere we 
believe in the Omsk region but, again, we cannot be sure 
because the Russian authorities have been notorious for lying--
until he reaches that final destination we are not going to 
know anything specific about him, I am afraid, and that scares 
me a lot because, as I said, he is being held by the same 
people who have already tried to kill him twice and now he is 
somewhere in Siberia with no contact with us.
    Chairman Wilson: With the assassination of Prigozhin how 
even the, quote, ``closest persons to war criminal Putin'' can 
be subject to assassination.
    Additionally, Ms. McCain, I have had the honor of knowing 
the courage of your dad because I visited Hanoi Hilton in 
Hanoi, and so the imprisonment of your dad is reflective of 
their being friends with Vladimir. What is your view about the 
issues with both?
    Ms. McCain: I became friends with Vlad and Sonya because of 
my dad's connection to Vlad when he was poisoned I believe the 
second time and was a huge advocate to getting him health care 
and then released back to the United States, and then we just 
became friends when my father was sick. He was a pallbearer at 
his funeral and we have just become friends.
    I think that America has to fight for prisoners who are 
unjustly detained overseas and it is a very simple fact of what 
is right and what is American and what is wrong.
    Chairman Wilson: Thank you very much.
    I now refer to Congressman Steve Cohen of Tennessee.
    Representative Cohen: Is this on now? Yes. Thank you. Thank 
you very much.
    We have been trying to get this designation and we do not 
know why the State Department has not done it. I presume you 
have made some personal entreaties as well. Is that correct?
    Ms. E. Kara-Murza: Yes, that is correct.
    Representative Cohen: Have they given you any rationale as 
to why he is not been designated under the Levinson Act as a 
wrongfully detained individual?
    Ms. E. Kara-Murza: I have had--I have been in contact with 
the State Department since--basically since Vladimir's 
imprisonment in April 2022 and I have had a lot of support from 
them. I very much appreciate the strong statement made by 
Ambassador Lynne Tracy in Moscow after Vladimir's conviction.
    I do appreciate the fact that Vladimir is part of the 
Without Just Cause political prisoners campaign launched by the 
State Department and by them following the case of Vladimir and 
sending diplomats to every single hearing that Vladimir had 
throughout this time in Moscow.
    This designation would move Vladimir's case onto a 
different level and, honestly, I do not understand the 
rationale. I was told that--at some times I was told that 
Vladimir does not--that he does not meet the criteria of the 
Levinson Act, which is not true because he does meet seven non-
inclusive conditions for a lawful or wrongful detention status 
under the Levinson Act.
    Vladimir does have clear and very close connections to the 
United States. I am a U.S. citizen here. Our kids are U.S. born 
and Vladimir is a green card holder so he is a permanent--
lawful permanent resident.
    I do believe that he meets all the criteria and I do not 
quite understand their rationale.
    Representative Cohen: Well, I do not either and it is--I 
believe the situation is analogous to the Hotel Rwanda, Paul-- 
can you now--can you pronounce his last name for me?
    Ms. E. Kara-Murza: Paul Rusesabagina.
    Representative Cohen: That is it. Yes, thank you. It seems 
to be analogous situation and for some reason he was classified 
as such and so should Vladimir.
    Before I ask Ms. McCain a question I just want to comment, 
which we all know because this thing speaks for itself. I know 
you are proud of your daughter and it was a marvelous statement 
that she made. I am happy to bring her on. Thank you.
    Ms. E. Kara-Murza: I am incredibly proud of our kids, of 
the way they are handling this whole absolutely atrocious 
situation, of the way they have been supportive of my work, of 
me continuing Vladimir's work, of the way they stand with me 
and of the way they are proud of their father and they know who 
their father is. Not just their daddy who teaches them how to 
make Russian blinis or drive a stick or, you know, but also 
their dad as a freedom fighter, their dad as someone who fights 
for human rights and democracy not just to Russia but around 
the world because we are all pieces of the same puzzle and the 
only way for Russia to stop being a threat to itself and its 
neighbors is for it to become a democracy.
    There is no other way. For as long as an autocratic regime 
is allowed to survive in Russia warmongering will continue.
    Representative Cohen: Thank you.
    Ms. McCain, I just want you to know I only have a couple of 
minor incidents where I was able to interact with your father 
and that was--they were cherished moments. He was a great 
American hero. I have had--I have been to Annapolis twice and 
both times I have made visits to his grave.
    One of my pals runs the Rendezvous restaurant in Memphis. I 
do not know if you know that. It is a famous barbecue 
restaurant. I thought it was a little silly at first when he 
told me but he left some Rendezvous seasoning on the gravy. He 
said your father was a big fan. I saw it and I thought, yes, he 
is got it there.
    Ms. McCain: Thank you very much. I appreciate that.
    Representative Cohen: Do you have any thoughts about the 
Levinson Act and why--or why not Vladimir has not been 
designated, and if he was so and it was--what would the effect 
have on his incarceration?
    Ms. McCain: I could not possibly understand, but I think it 
is shameful and I think that it is beyond past time. I think 
that there is--I do not understand it other than it--that 
everyone in this room is probably much more intelligent than I 
am.
    I think it is just shameful on the part of what is 
happening right now. I think, as I said in my remarks, it would 
give him hope acknowledging that the United states is an ally 
and that, you know, we see him as a wrongfully and illegally 
detained person and know that there is hope for his release.
    If we leave him there without doing anything it sends a 
really dangerous message to our enemies and to the possible 
future people that Putin could capture and possibly kill in 
prison for fighting for freedom.
    Representative Cohen: Thank you so much for being here.
    I yield back.
    Chairman Wilson: We now recognize--thank you, Congressman 
Cohen.
    Congressman Marc Veasey of Texas.

        STATEMENT OF MARC VEASEY, U.S. HOUSE, FROM TEXAS

    Representative Veasey: Mr. Chairman, thank you very much.
    I appreciate you and your family being here and especially 
under the duress that you are facing right now with your 
husband and his situation. I wanted to ask you, what type of 
interaction have you had directly with the Russian government? 
Can you give us a sense of how you feel about the safety of you 
and your daughter right now?
    Ms. E. Kara-Murza: Thank you very much for the question.
    See, my husband has risked his life for a very long time 
for many years and he knows what he is fighting for. I know 
that, too, and I share his fight, and after his arrest I 
believed it my duty to step up and continue his work because he 
is not--he has not been working to promote some self-interests 
or to--I do not know, he was driven by this idea that Russia 
can be different and that millions and millions of Russians 
reject Vladimir Putin's regime and everything it stands for and 
they need a voice.
    I believe it is my duty to continue Vladimir's work. Our 
kids are here in the United States, all our three kids, and 
this was also how Vladimir wanted--has always wanted it when he 
realized that this work of his is going to present many 
dangers.
    We want our kids to be in a safe place and we believe that 
they are safe here in the United States where they have their 
friends, where they have their lovely schools, where they have 
their support groups, and I will travel and I will continue 
doing Vladimir's work for as long as it takes me, for as long 
as it takes us all, Russian anti-war and pro-democracy forces, 
to stop the atrocious aggression--war of aggression against 
Ukraine and to do everything we can to bring closer the day 
when the regime in Russia collapses.
    Representative Veasey: Thank you.
    I wanted to ask you and Ms. McCain a question. You know, 
one of the things that we hear often in the U.S. is, you know, 
we have a lot of problems of our own here. You know, the money 
that we are spending on any sort of overseas operations or 
foreign aid, it can be used to help in, you know, A, B, and C.
    We have had several high-profile, you know, lawmakers say 
that we, you know, should not be involved in what is happening 
in Ukraine right now, and if you could sort of give us a sense, 
in your opinion, and I would especially love to hear from you, 
Ms. McCain, also why should the U.S. be concerned about what is 
happening with your husband right now.
    Why is this something that every American should take 
seriously, particularly with some of the issues that we have 
going on in our own country right now?
    Ms. E. Kara-Murza: Well, Vladimir Putin did not just jump 
out of the box. Vladimir Putin has been on the scene for 23 
years committing very similar crimes against Russia's neighbors 
and against the Russian population, and every time he would try 
his hand at committing one similar crime he would look and wait 
for the reaction.
    He invaded Georgia. Nothing happened. He aggressively 
squashed peaceful protests in Russia. Nothing happened. He 
annexed Crimea. Nothing happened. He bombed civilians in Syria. 
Again, nothing happened.
    In his warped logic if he can go and annex Crimea why 
cannot he go and annex the rest of Ukraine? If he can bomb 
civilians in Syria, why cannot he do the same in Ukraine? The--
Vladimir Putin has shown through his actions time and again 
that he will not stay within Russia's borders.
    This is why getting Russia changed--getting Russia to 
become a democracy is something that is in the interests of the 
entire world because Vladimir Putin will continue warmongering 
for as long as he is allowed and this will cost more and more 
to the entire world, including the United States of America.
    This is the same reason I believe--the same reason why the 
United States should stand with those fighting for freedom in 
Russia because they are the people who represent an alternative 
to Vladimir Putin. They are those freedom fighters, those 
visionaries, who see Russia a democratic country based on the 
rule of law and respect for human rights.
    If we do not stand with them, if we allow Vladimir Putin to 
eradicate the dissent in the country, if we allow him to squash 
that--those protests that--those protests against his regime, 
then there will be no alternative left and we will be left with 
Vladimir Putin or whoever follows him.
    Representative VEASEY: If I get a second round--I will wait 
for your answer, but my time has expired.
    Mr. Chairman?
    Chairman Wilson: Thank you very much, Congressman Veasey.
    We now proceed--and thank you for your eloquent statements, 
too--to Congresswoman Victoria Spartz.

     STATEMENT OF VICTORIA SPARTZ, U.S. HOUSE, FROM INDIANA

    Representative Spartz: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you 
so much for being here.
    We have a lot of different debates and talking issues but, 
you know, people like you or your husband really understand 
what oppression is and willing to stand up and it is tough, 
right? You know, Ukrainians are paying a high price standing up 
against the government that is oppressive. Just followup on 
that, I think we have a record. We know that, you know, most--
you know, we have fought a lot of wars against Russian-made 
weapons. You know, Americans' blood, you know, was--you know, a 
lot of our people being killed, it is actually because Russia 
supplied, you know, weapons to other side.
    We know that Russia tried to destabilize the United States 
and tried to interfere in our elections. It uses weaknesses and 
dumb things we are doing here, which actually we are doing a 
lot of dumb things, unfortunately, and helped them.
    This is unfortunate. One thing is--good thing about this 
Commission, actually, this Commission is bipartisan, this 
Commission is bicameral, and this Commission can demand the 
answer, because this Congress actually has way more power than 
the State Department and executive branch. If we would be doing 
authorizations properly--and we still did not pass our 
appropriations--we have an ability to say: You know what? You 
are not willing to work with Congress, you are just not going 
to get the money. That will get attention of the State 
Department. All of these letter, they will be responded and 
they will actually care what we have to say.
    I think this is a nice thing about it because we have--we 
can disagree a lot of issue, but we have a bipartisan, 
bicameral agreement on some of the issue and understanding, you 
know, the fight that American cannot lose, because, ultimately, 
these people are after us. They are, you know, collaborating 
with some pretty bad people and destabilize Africa, destabilize 
Middle East, and a lot of other things.
    What things is important for us to know? I hope we will be 
able to do something and get an answer from the State 
Department. Listen, we can change. If there is some things that 
need to be changed in the law--[laughs]--we are, like, 
lawmakers here, Okay? Like, we can change the policies of law. 
What things is important for us to know?
    How urgent this? Unfortunately, we do a lot of the 
different grandstanding and a lot of talking, but when people's 
life at stake actions matter and how fast. What would you 
suggest we have to know to be able to, you know, convey to the 
State Department maybe that they did not get that memo?
    Ms. E. Kara-Murza: Thank you very much for your words and 
for your question.
    Actually, I think that--I believe that the State Department 
has heard it all already and my arguments are very clear and 
unequivocal and I could not--could not think of anything else 
to say.
    I believe it is in the interest of the United States and of 
the democratic--of the global democratic community to stand 
with those people who oppose autocratic regimes around the 
world because we now see in the world a global fight of 
autocracies against democracies, and by standing with those who 
wants to change the regimes in their countries and make their 
countries into democracies we would make democracy worldwide 
stronger.
    I believe that such visionaries as my husband who have a 
clear understanding of what needs to be changed in Russia is 
for Russia to stop being a threat to itself and its neighbors, 
I believe that standing with such visionaries is very 
important.
    Representative Spartz: Well, I appreciate it. Honest, no, 
listen, I wish we would have done a better job help some of 
these democratic institutions that were--[laughs]--try to 
develop in the times, you know, that Russia would have been 
democratic country. I wish it would have happened. I wish some 
of the elitists would take a different course, because it would 
have definitely less headaches for us. I agree with you.
    How urgent this issue is and important? You know, we do a 
lot of things here. Do you believe there is a very significant 
urgency that we really need to act much faster? We also have a 
bureaucracy and a lot of things here, but sometimes you have to 
go cut through the clutter when you have real life at stake.
    Ms. E. Kara-Murza: Absolutely. Well, there is urgency 
because Vladimir's health is deteriorating. Under the Russian 
law, as I already said, polyneuropathy, the medical condition 
that he has because of the two poisonings in the past, is on 
the list of conditions that should prevent incarceration 
because it can lead to paralysis.
    I do realize that behind bars Vladimir will not receive the 
medical attention that he needs. I do realize that he has 
already lost over 55 pounds over this year. I understand that 
his medical condition is only going to deteriorate and I 
understand that he is being held by the same people who tried 
to kill him twice, literally.
    I have no reason to believe that they would not try again, 
especially now that he is been transferred to somewhere in 
Siberia and we do not know about his whereabouts. We do not 
know anything about his State of health. This is urgent and it 
is a matter of life and death.
    Representative Spartz: Thank you. Thank you for being here.
    Chairman Wilson: Thank you very much, Congresswoman Spartz.
    We have--by unanimous consent, I am happy to recognize 
Congressman Veasey for another question.
    Representative Veasey: Mr. Chairman, thank you very much.
    I wanted to ask Ms. McCain a followup on the question I 
asked earlier. Why do you think that Americans should be 
concerned about what is happened to Mr. Murza? I would love to 
just hear your--
    Ms. McCain: I understand the criticism and I--this is not 
directed at you personally but when people ask me that it is 
like asking why should I care about Nelson Mandela during the 
apartheid. People that are fighting for freedom in the face of 
true evil should be recognized and supported by the greatest 
democracy and beacon of freedom in the United States and I 
truly believe in my heart and my soul and my brain that Vlad is 
the Nelson Mandela of this moment, and if the State Department 
continues to not recognize the urgency in which getting him 
released and at least at the very least getting him recognized 
as a wrongfully or illegally detained person it will be a 
blemish on their record right now.
    I truly believe history will be unkind to those who do not 
recognize him in this moment, and it will embolden Putin even 
further. As Evgenia so eloquently put it, what it means 
globally is catastrophic. Thank you.
    Representative Veasey: Yes. Thank you very much.
    I wanted to ask you in closing, do you have hope that upon 
Putin's demise, whenever that is? Whenever that happens, do you 
think that his successor will be a better leader for Russia? Is 
there hope? Do you have hope? Does your family have hope?
    Ms. E. Kara-Murza: We absolutely do have hope because, 
again, as I said, I am sharing my life with a true visionary, 
with a true patriot, and I do have a lot of hope. Also we 
understand that in Russia we are not looking to replace a bad 
president with a good one.
    We understand that Russia has to become a parliamentary 
republic and has to go through a very deep process of 
Federalization because Russia has been a federation only on 
paper and we need to change a lot in Russia for it to become a 
democracy.
    Yes, I do have hope because I hear of arrests and 
detentions every day and I hear of absolutely atrocious 
instruments--repressive instruments used against those who 
oppose their regime and that shows that there is protests in 
the country, that there are a lot--that there is a lot of 
dissent in the country because if there had not been any 
dissent those atrocious methods would not have been used by the 
regime.
    They are used against those people, against thousands and 
thousands of Russians who stand up and say no--no to the war, 
no to Putin's regime. They are also Russia. When you say--when 
I hear politicians say, like, Russia does this and Russia does 
that I always have this little thing--you know, little thought 
in the back of my head, my husband is also Russia.
    All those Russians who have risked their lives going into 
the streets and opposing the regime openly they are also Russia 
and this is--this is why I do have hope and I will continue 
having hope and I will fight for those people. I will stand 
with them for as long as it takes me.
    Chairman Wilson: Thank you very much, Congressman Veasey.
    Thank both of you for being here today. Evgenia, thank you 
so much for referencing, indeed, we are in a worldwide conflict 
between dictators' rule of gun opposing democracies' rule of 
law.
    This is not a conflict we sought. It began on February 24, 
2022 and it is not something as--that we can just stand back 
and ignore. ultimately, we will--with the dictatorships of 
Putin, the Chinese Communist Party, the regime in Tehran, they 
make it very clear--death to America, death to Israel. I do not 
know how clearer they can make it.
    A final point. I am an optimist like you, and that is as I 
see Meghan McCain here I am thinking that we had a war with 
Vietnam within the lifetime of many other people, not everybody 
here, and now I visited Hanoi to see American and Vietnamese 
troops working together for MIA recovery, to see as we saw last 
week the affection actually for the president of the United 
States, of all places, in Hanoi.
    Times can improve, and then yesterday we celebrated 120 
years of diplomatic relations with the Republic of Bulgaria, 
and times change. As we recognize the warm relationship and 
partnership we have with Bulgaria today, a member of NATO, a 
member of the EU, just a dynamic country--well, actually over 
the last 120 years we had to--as I did a resolution commending 
I left out that we were at war--World War I, World War II, the 
cold war. Times can change and I share the same hope for the 
people of Russia.
    As we conclude I would like also to invite you--we would 
like to get a picture with you, and so if you will stay seated, 
and particularly want Sonya to be in the picture. With that, we 
are adjourned. [Sounds gavel.]
    [Whereupon, at 3:42 p.m., the hearing ended.]
      
      
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