[Joint House and Senate Hearing, 118 Congress]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]




   RUSSIA'S ALPINE ASSETS: MONEY LAUNDERING AND SANCTIONS EVASION IN 
                              SWITZERLAND

=======================================================================

                                HEARING

                               BEFORE THE

            COMMISSION ON SECURITY AND COOPERATION IN EUROPE

                        U.S. HELSINKI COMMISSION

                     U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

                    ONE HUNDRED EIGHTEENTH CONGRESS

                             SECOND SESSION

                               __________

                             JULY 18, 2023

                               __________

 Printed for the use of the Commission on Security and Cooperation in 
                                 Europe

                              [CSCE118-5]



[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]








                       Available via www.csce.gov 
                             _________
                              
                 U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE
                 
52-924                   WASHINGTON : 2023  

                       
                       
                       
                       
                       
                       
                       
                       
                       
                       
                       
                       
                       
                       
                       
                       
                       
                       
                       
                       
                       
                       
                       
                       
                       
            COMMISSION ON SECURITY AND COOPERATION IN EUROPE

                        U.S. HELSINKI COMMISSION

             U.S. HOUSE

                                                 U.S. SENATE

JOE WILSON, South Carolina Chairman          BEN CARDIN, Maryland Co-Chairman  
STEVE COHEN, Tennessee Ranking Member        ROGER F. WICKER, Mississippi Ranking  
ROBERT B. ADERHOLT, Alabama                   Member  
EMANUEL CLEAVER II, Missouri                 RICHARD BLUMENTHAL, Connecticut  
RUBEN GALLEGO, Arizona                       JOHN BOOZMAN, Arkansas  
RICHARD HUDSON, North Carolina               JEANNE SHAHEEN, New Hampshire  
MIKE LAWLER, New York                        THOM TILLIS, North Carolina  
GWEN MOORE, Wisconsin                        SHELDON WHITEHOUSE, Rhode Island  
VICTORIA SPARTZ, Indiana  
MARC VEASEY, Texas  

                               EXECUTIVE BRANCH
                 Department of State - to be appointed
                Department of Defense - to be appointed
                Department of Commerce - to be appointed  
                
                
                
                
                
                
                
                
                
                
                
                         C  O  N  T  E  N  T  S

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                             COMMISSIONERS

Hon. Ben Cardin, Co-Chairman, from Maryland......................     1

Hon. Roger Wicker, Ranking Member, from Mississippi..............     2

Hon. Joe Wilson, Chairman, U.S. House, from South Carolina.......    10

Hon. Victoria Spartz, U.S. House from Indiana....................    15


                               WITNESSES

Bill Browder, Global Magnitsky Justice Campaign..................     4

Drew Sullivan, Co-founder, Organized Crime and Corruption 
  Reporting Project [OCCRP]......................................     6

Olena Tregub, Secretary General, Independent Defense Anti-
  Corruption Committee [NAKO]....................................     8


 
   RUSSIA'S ALPINE ASSETS: MONEY LAUNDERING AND SANCTIONS EVASION IN 
                              SWITZERLAND

                              ----------                              

   COMMISSION ON SECURITY & COOPERATION IN 
                                    EUROPE,
                          U.S. HELSINKI COMMISSION,
                                  HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES,
                                          Wednesday, July 18, 2023.

    The Hearing Was Held From 1:23 p.m. To 2:29 p.m., Room G50 
Dirksen Senate Office Building, Washington, DC, Representative 
Joe Wilson [R-SC], Chairman, Commission for Security and 
Cooperation in Europe, presiding.
    Committee Members Present: Representative Joe Wilson [R-
SC], Chairman; Senator Ben Cardin [D-MD], Co-Chairman; Senator 
Roger F. Wicker [R-MS], Ranking Member; Representative Victoria 
Spartz [R-IN].
    Witnesses: Bill Browder, Global Magnitsky Justice Campaign; 
Drew Sullivan, Co-founder, Organized Crime and Corruption 
Reporting Project [OCCRP]; Olena Tregub, Secretary General, 
Independent Defense Anti-Corruption Committee [NAKO].

OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. BEN CARDIN, CO-CHAIRMAN, U.S. SENATE, 
                         FROM MARYLAND

    Co-Chairman Cardin: Welcome our witnesses here. In 
Congress, you got to be flexible. This hearing was originally 
scheduled for 1pm. Chairman Wilson would be normally calling 
this hearing to order, but there are a series of votes on the 
House floor. We will start the hearing and we are going to go 
as long as we can. I am not sure when the House members will be 
returning. Senator Wicker and I are going by the Senate 
schedule, which is different than the House schedule. We are 
going to have conflicts throughout this period. This is our 
return date in the Senate, and there are a lot of conflicts 
that are taking place. I hope--just as your indulgence is we--
this is an extremely important hearing, and I am very pleased 
that Chairman Wilson called this hearing on the money 
laundering and sanctions evasion in Switzerland with Russia's 
alpine assets.
    Switzerland is a good friend of the United States. 
Democratic State. We have strategic partnerships with 
Switzerland on so many different issues. They have a dark 
streak in enabling the laundering of blood assets. We saw that 
during World War Two, when Switzerland was the preferred 
location for gold taken by the Nazis from Jews. We saw that on 
where the moneys were hidden with the apartheid leaders and 
businesses from South Africa. We have seen it in regards to the 
oligarchs in Russia. So we consistently see a pattern here in 
which Switzerland's banking arrangements have facilitated the 
corrupt practices of people that have robbed their country of 
their wealth.
    There has been a repeated effort to deal with the Russian 
money that has adversely affected the sanctions. Part of our 
strategy in winning the war for Ukraine is to isolate and put 
sanctions on Russia. Those sanctions are only as effective as 
we are able to make sure that they are enforced. We have seen 
the Russian economy surviving better than we thought it would, 
and part of that has been the laundering of dirty money in 
Switzerland. That is an area of great concern to all of us. The 
accountants, the lawyers, the banks, the auditors, the 
investment advisors, the consultants, and others who accept 
dirty money in exchange for laundering and influence services 
are facilitating the perpetrators of gross human rights 
violations and corruption.
    It was not too many years ago that Senator Wicker and I 
were joined by Senator McCain, with the help of one of our 
witnesses, Bill Browder, and we established the Magnitsky 
sanctions, then global Magnitsky sanctions. It has become the 
standard among the Western world that individual sanctions are 
critically important if we are going to be able to root out 
human rights violators and corrupt leaders. We have been pretty 
successful in the use of the Magnitsky sanctions. We are 
pleased about that. We need to look at the facilitators, those 
that are facilitating the corrupt leaders. That is one of the 
areas which we need to expand and apply the Magnitsky 
sanctions.
    This hearing is first and foremost about our continued 
effort in this Commission to do everything we can to assist 
Ukraine in its defense against Russia's War of aggression. We 
have held hearings in regards to war crimes. We have held 
hearings in regards to how we can provide assistance. This 
hearing is how we can make sure that the sanctions that are 
imposed are not being evaded by a country like Switzerland, 
through the use of their banking system. There is a secondary 
purpose, and that is to raise the awareness of the need to 
expand those that are sanctioned under our sanction laws to 
include those that claim to have clean hands because they are 
lawyers and accountants, et cetera. They are facilitators, and 
they need to be held accountable.
    With that, let me turn it over to my colleague and friend, 
the ranking Republican on the Helsinki Commission, Senator 
Wicker.

 STATEMENT OF ROGER WICKER, RANKING MEMBER, U.S. SENATE, FROM 
                          MISSISSIPPI

    Senator Wicker: Thank you so much, Senator Cardin. Let me 
just say that you have stated it very well. The title of this 
hearing is indeed provocative, and deservedly so and intended 
to be attention getting: ``Russia's Alpine Assets: Money 
Laundering and Sanctions Evasion in Switzerland.'' My 
distinguished friend from Maryland is exactly right, 
Switzerland is a friend, and we share so many common values. 
This is an issue worth exploring, and it is an issue worthy of 
the title of this hearing.
    Let me say this, it is one of the great honors of my career 
to have been involved with Senator McCain and Senator Cardin as 
one of the co-authors of the Magnitsky Act, and then to have 
assisted further along with the Global Magnitsky Act. As my 
friend Senator Cardin prepares in a year and a half to move 
from the public sector into the private sector, there is no 
question that his efforts to root out corruption, and 
particularly on behalf of really threading the very difficult 
needle of getting Magnitsky passed, it will go down as one of 
his great legacies during his time of public service at the 
State and Federal level. Let me just say to my friend how much 
I appreciate that.
    Briefly as we move to the witnesses let me just say, Russia 
has made corruption an important part of its foreign policy. 
Everyone really knows that. It is bought off former top 
officials in Europe and contracted world-class law firms to do 
its dirty work. The Kremlin even found ways to corrupt the 
highest levels of Swiss law enforcement. The former Swiss 
Federal prosecutor was forced to step down and a high-level 
enforcement officer was convicted of bribery. These are facts.
    I am concerned that Switzerland may soon return stolen 
Russian money to those who took it. This would be wrong under 
any circumstances, but it is especially disastrous to do so as 
Russia wages a brutal and unprovoked war against its neighbor, 
Ukraine. I look forward to learning today how we can do our 
part to ensure that this stolen Russian money does not leave 
Switzerland, and how we can guarantee that the investigation 
into Russian money laundering in Switzerland comes to a 
successful conclusion. I thank our witnesses for being here, 
and I will yield back to the distinguished Senate Chairman of 
Helsinki.
    Co-Chairman Cardin: Thank you. Thank you very much, Senator 
Wicker. Thank you for those personal comments. I appreciate 
that.
    We will now hear from our witnesses. Your full statements 
will be made part of our record. We thank the three of you for 
being with us. We will start with Bill Browder, who is the head 
of the Magnitsky Global Justin Campaign. Mr. Browder was the 
largest foreign investor in Russia until 2005, when he was 
denied entry to the country and declared a threat to national 
security for exposing corruption in Russia state-owned 
companies. In 2008, Mr. Browder's lawyer, Sergei Magnitsky, 
uncovered a massive fraud committed by Russian Government 
officials that involved the theft of $230 million of State 
taxes. Sergei Magnitsky testified against the State officials 
involved in the fraud and was subsequently arrested, imprisoned 
without trial, and systematically tortured. He spent a year in 
prison under horrific detention conditions, was repeatedly 
denied medical treatment, and died in prison on November 16, 
2009, leaving behind a wife and two children.
    We will then hear from Mr. Drew Sullivan, the co-founder 
and publisher of the Organized Crime and Corruption Reporting 
Project. Before that, in 2004, he founded and edited the Center 
for Investigative Reporting, the leading investigative center 
in Bosnia-Herzegovina. Now, last, we will hear from Olena 
Tregub, secretary general, the Independent Defense Anti-
Corruption Committee. That committee is a joint initiative of 
Transparency International Defense and Security and the 
Ukrainian chapter of Transparency International.
    We will start with Mr. Browder.

  STATEMENT OF BILL BROWDER, HEAD OF GLOBAL MAGNITSKY JUSTICE 
                            CAMPAIGN

    Mr. Browder: Senator Cardin, Senator Wicker, it is a great 
honor to sit before you. We have had a long history together, 
starting in 2010 with the--following the death of Sergei 
Magnitsky, which led to the two of you and Senator McCain and 
Senator Lieberman passing, along with all of your colleagues, 
the Magnitsky Act. Let me just second what Senator Wicker said, 
which Senator Cardin--that is the Magnitsky Act is a piece of 
great leadership and great heroism, and will certainly be--you 
will be remembered for this work long into the--long after your 
political career ends. There are many, many people--millions of 
people around the world that are grateful for what you have 
done.
    As you know, Sergei Magnitsky, his murder was something 
that changed my life completely. After he was killed, I gave up 
my life as a businessman to focus all of my time, energy, and 
resources going after the people who killed him, to make sure 
they face justice. The Magnitsky Act was an important part of 
that. The other important part of our campaign for justice was 
to learn who got the $230 million that Sergei Magnitsky was 
killed over. We began an investigation which started moments 
after he was killed and goes on until today.
    As we began this investigation, we started to get 
information from whistleblowers, from journalists, from law 
enforcement investigations. One of the places where we got 
information was a person who told us that the husband of the 
tax official who approved the $230 million tax refund received 
roughly $10 million in his accounts at Credit Suisse in Zurich. 
We turn that information over to the Swiss law enforcement 
authorities. They froze that money; they opened a criminal 
investigation.
    They, subsequently, then froze roughly another $10 million 
belonging to various people. One of them was a man named Dmitry 
Klyuev, who was the head of the Klyuev organized crime group 
that was--organized the whole tax refund, and a lot of the 
other nastiness that Sergei Magnitsky was subjected to. Another 
one was a man named Denis Katsyv, who was the owner of a 
company called Prevezon, which has also been prosecuted here in 
New York for--the company has been prosecuted for money 
laundering connected to the Magnitsky case.
    There was a 10-year investigation that was going on. At 
some point at the beginning of the investigation, the Swiss put 
their most senior Russian-speaking officer in charge of the 
investigation. His name was Vinzenz Schnell. The moment this 
Mr. Schnell began this investigation--or, joined the team, I 
should say, the investigation ground to a halt. We were very, 
very confused about why it was not moving forward. We kept on 
writing applications and requests to the Swiss authorities to 
have them try to do something, and nothing happened.
    Then we discovered around 2018 why it had ground to a halt. 
What we learned was that Mr. Schnell was apparently invited on 
a number of all-expense-paid hunting trips in Russia, a bear 
hunting trip to Kamchatka, boar hunting near Moscow. All the 
trips were paid for by Russian oligarchs. It was discovered 
that he did this. He was fired from his job in the Swiss 
Federal Police. He was put on trial. He was found guilty. 
During the trial and during the court hearings, it was--he 
disclosed that the reason why they were entertaining him was 
they wanted to get him to drop--the Swiss to drop the Magnitsky 
investigation.
    After he was fired, in spite of this information, that is 
exactly what happened. The Swiss law enforcement authorities 
dropped the Magnitsky investigation. They did not prosecute a 
single person. They are now planning on giving back about 80 
percent of the $20 million that was frozen. Now it is not just 
giving money back to criminals which makes this so offensive. 
Three of those four individuals who were--whose money has been 
frozen are on the U.S. Magnitsky list. They were part of their 
efforts to get justice for Sergei Magnitsky.
    They are not just sanctioned by the United States. They are 
sanctioned by Canada, by the U.K., by Australia. You have got a 
situation where Switzerland is not only planning on returning 
money to criminals, but they are returning money to people who 
are sanctioned by the United States and our allies. It is not 
only outrageous that they are doing that, but they are doing 
that at a time of war, where Russia has launched this 
unprovoked, aggressive invasion, murderous invasion of Ukraine.
    We have applied to the Swiss prosecutor, to the new 
prosecutor, to stop this miscarriage of justice. Their response 
was to kick us off the case, to say that we were not the 
victims. It was just the Russian Government that was the 
victims. When we went to court to share all the information 
about the corruption with the court, the court said: Well, we 
cannot even consider it because the Swiss prosecutors said you 
are not a victim, so you have no standing, and as a result, we 
fully affirm the decision. Senator Wicker has been in touch 
with the Swiss, and the Swiss say: We cannot get involved in 
any judicial decisions.
    In my opinion, what is happening in Switzerland, this is 
just the tip of a much bigger iceberg. I think our other 
witnesses will be talking about it in more general terms. The 
Swiss Government wants to be seen to be doing something, but 
when it comes to reality the Swiss Government do not want to do 
anything because they have such--there is such a lot of money 
to be made off of dirty Russian money in Switzerland. We are in 
a situation which is perhaps not as brazen as it was when I 
first came to you back in 2010, but it is still pretty brazen. 
Where you have a country where the legal system does not work, 
where criminal justice does not work.
    The purpose of the Magnitsky Act when we first came up with 
it was to deal with a system that did not work. We have that 
going on right now. I say this with a heavy heart, but I say 
this as something which I think is necessary because of the 
stubbornness of the Swiss authorities, which is that when a 
legal system does not work, we have to intervene ourselves. 
There is very specific provisions in the Magnitsky Act which 
say that if a person is involved in concealing the legal 
liability for the detention, abuse, or death of Sergei 
Magnitsky, including those who made false and misleading 
accounts about the fraudulent tax scheme uncovered by Sergei 
Magnitsky, they can be sanctioned under the Magnitsky Act.
    So my request today is that we ask--that you, the Helsinki 
Commission--asks the U.S. Secretary of State and the Secretary 
of Treasury to sanction the individuals in the prosecutor's 
office who have been involved in this conspiracy to give back 
the money. Those names include the former Attorney General 
Michael Lauber, the current Attorney General Stefan Blattler, 
the Deputy Attorney General--the former Deputy Attorney General 
Patrick Lamon, the current Deputy Attorney General Diane 
Kohler, and Vinzenz Schnell, the famous bear hunter. Thank you 
very much.
    Co-Chairman Cardin: Thank you, Mr. Browder.
    Mr. Sullivan.

  STATEMENT OF DREW SULLIVAN, CO-FOUNDER, ORGANIZED CRIME AND 
              CORRUPTION REPORTING PROJECT [OCCRP]

    Mr. Sullivan: Thank you, Senator Wicker and Senator Cardin 
for the opportunity to be here today.
    Co-Chairman Cardin: Turn your mic on.
    Mr. Sullivan: The Organized Crime and Corruption Reporting 
Project is a global nonprofit investigative journalism 
organization on six continents and we publish over 140 
investigative stories a year. From our earliest days, we 
tracked organized crime, corrupt public officials, and what we 
call the criminal services industry. That is the banks, law 
firms, and registration agents that enabled organized crime to 
globalize their operations. Swiss banks were always front and 
center in many of the schemes we followed, even in the earliest 
days. For stolen and illegal money, they are the gold standard 
for offshore secrecy destinations.
    Our investigation into what we call the Russian 
laundromats, these were all-purpose financial fraud vehicles 
used to launder more than $20 billion in Europe, found that 
Swiss banks were regularly represented. That is why we think 
the often-mentioned figure of $200 billion in Russian money in 
Swiss banks is a gross underestimation. Swiss banks operate 
worldwide and control trillions of dollars both inside and 
outside of Switzerland in their wealth management systems and 
in trusts. Many of these assets are fronted by offshore company 
proxies, bearer shares, and other untraceable asset structures 
around the world. We estimate that the total amount of Russian 
money controlled by Swiss banks is more likely twice that size, 
up to $400 billion.
    Russian money is hugely important to Swiss banks. The 
historic outflow of frozen assets--of stolen assets from Russia 
and other Soviet republics, former Soviet republics, over the 
past 30 years dramatically altered the banking landscape. At 
one point, $160 billion per month was flowing out of Russia 
alone. Banks fought each other for this money, and when they 
got it they benefited with historic growth rates. The majority 
of this profoundly undemocratic money was dirty, but 
Switzerland had to bank the money or lose ground to Dubai, 
London, and other banking centers. They leaned into banking 
Russians hard.
    Publicly, Swiss banking secrecy laws have allowed the 
industry to perpetuate a myth that Swiss authorities were on 
top of the issue, that they would cleaned up dirty money or 
were in the process of doing so, that their due diligence 
processes were robust. These lies would be repeated 
vociferously by banks, regulators, and government officials 
over the years. In 2021, OCCRP got a unique opportunity to look 
for ourselves. With our partner, the German newspaper 
Suddeutsche Zeitung, we received the first-ever significant 
leak of Swiss banking account records. In this case, from the 
banking giant Credit Suisse.
    We scoured through the records of more than 18,000 
accounts. What we found shocked even us, veterans of big 
corruption issues around the world. We found that organized 
crime figures and corrupt officials continued to maintain large 
Swiss accounts, despite the fact that their crimes literally 
showed up in the first result of a simple web search of their 
names. Through these records, OCCRP traced the money from 
dozens of historic corruption scandals, and clearly saw that 
around the same time the money went missing it was deposited 
into a Credit Suisse account. We found Russian oligarchs, 
despotic leaders, war criminals, drug dealers, and others.
    We also found 11 separate instances where a scandal led 
Credit Suisse officials or Swiss regulators to publicly State 
that they had initiated steps to fix the problems--new rules, 
new reviews of accounts, new crackdowns. Despite these alleged 
fixes and heartfelt pledges, the bank never fundamentally 
changed its operations. It continued to strongly incentivize 
the signing-up of criminals, often through subcontractors, and 
continued to directly appeal to dirty money globally. We found 
Swiss regulators to be no more honest. They seem to serve the 
purpose of protecting the Swiss banking sector first and 
foremost, and then providing an illusion of regulation. At one 
point they even asked Credit Suisse how they should respond to 
us. They tolerated banking secrecy laws and hampered 
enforcement, and they turned serious criminal cases into minor 
fines.
    I have to admit that they did respond to our stories by 
starting an investigation, but that investigation was into us. 
They wanted to know who the leaker was and whether they could 
prosecute them. There is no evidence that they ever looked at 
the information that we uncovered. Meanwhile, reporters working 
on the Swiss secrets project had to avoid Switzerland because 
they could be arrested for violating Swiss banking laws. While 
Switzerland portrays an image as itself as a clean, modern 
country, as efficient and finely crafted as their luxury 
watches, the best metaphor for Swiss banks I can come up with 
is as junkies hooked on dirty money and living with a 
government of enablers.
    The addiction is driven by the importance of banking to the 
country. It accounts for more than 10 percent of the country's 
employment and tax revenues. Banks hold assets worth more than 
450 percent of the annual gross domestic product. It is an 
endless supply of cheap development funds and wealth creation. 
This tolerance of money laundering has driven its cost to 
historic lows. It used to cost 20 to 30 percent to launder 
money. Now bank fees are actually higher than the fees for 
money laundering. Built into the bank fees charges are the 
costs to pay off their fines, penalties, and lawyers when they 
do get caught laundering. Bank fees have essentially become the 
profits of global money laundering.
    When Russian banks--when Russian money started to get 
problematic in 2014 with the seizure of Crimea, Swiss banks 
helped paper over dirty money using proxies and offshore 
companies. That continues today. Calls to Credit Suisse bankers 
during the reporting of our story found they were quite helpful 
in suggesting corporate structures that would protect the 
identity of the ultimate beneficial owners. It is this system 
that is still in place and is allowing Russia to easily bypass 
sanctions. Nothing has really changed, except that Credit 
Suisse was taken over by UBS after our story ended.
    If Swiss banks cannot enforce sanctions that their 
government has pledged to enforce, the EU and U.S. Government 
should look at means of using their jurisdictional control over 
U.S. and euro-denominated accounts to bring them in line. Swiss 
banks could also be designated for heightened scrutiny and due 
diligence checks when dealing with American banks. The banks 
and regulators have openly lied for decades. Only severe 
pressure will make them change their ways.
    Co-Chairman Cardin: Thank you for your testimony, as 
shocking as it is. Thank you very much for your testimony.
    Ms. Tregub.

   STATEMENT OF OLENA TREGUB, SECRETARY GENERAL, INDEPENDENT 
               DEFENSE ANTI-CORRUPTION COMMISSION

    Ms. Tregub: Thank you, honorable Senator Cardin, Senator 
Wicker, distinguished members of Helsinki Commission. It is an 
honor for me to testify today in front of you. I represent the 
Independent Defense Anti-Corruption Commission. It is a civil 
society organization from Ukraine. Before the full-scale 
invasion, we were engaged in defense reform in making Ukrainian 
defense industry more transparent, more competitive, in 
reforming defense procurement. After February 24, as many other 
civil society groups, we started to look into some areas of 
work which could help stop the war and save our country in the 
area of our expertise.
    That is how we started looking into sanctions and export 
control regime to obstruct the flow of Western technology to 
produce Russian weapons. This Western technology comes from 
democratic Western countries, and Switzerland is one of such 
countries. Switzerland has a longstanding tradition of 
neutrality. Yet, when it comes to actual decisions, this 
neutrality is rather questionable. Sometimes it is 
hypocritical. As Mr. Sullivan already mentioned, their amount 
of Russian assets in Switzerland may be over 400 billion 
dollars. I want to emphasize that despite that, Switzerland 
refused to be part of the European task force devoted to 
searching hidden Russian assets.
    Why do they do it? Is it because Russians and their money 
are still hiding in Switzerland? We know stories even about 
Alina Kabayeva in the media. Still, people, media, suspected, 
but government seems to look away from this and does not want 
to investigate. These Russian questions, of course, concern us 
as Ukrainian citizens a lot because they help Russia to wage 
the war. When we look particularly at weapons, it is very 
similar paradox there. Even, I would say, sharper paradox. 
Because you know that debate about the supply of weapons to any 
country at war is off the table in Switzerland a long time 
before the invasion of Ukraine. They are a neutral country. 
They do not want to be part of any conflict in the world.
    The nature of Russian invasion made many people question 
their beliefs. According to recent polls, already 55 percent of 
Swiss citizens support lifting the ban on exports of Swiss 
weapons to Ukraine. Yet, this ban remains. At the same time, 
our organization analyzed 22 pieces of Russian Military 
equipment and weapons. It includes--and we found that 
semiconductors and other critical components produced by 
Switzerland, by Swiss companies, they make Switzerland No. 1 
country in Europe in terms of number of those components. I am 
talking about very serious, deadly weapons that help Russia to 
wage this genocidal war and commit war crimes. This is those 
weapons in which we found Swiss components.
    This is Kalibr missile. This is battle helicopter Alligator 
Ka-52. This is H-101 missile. This is drones Korsar, Orlan. 
This is Iranian-made drones, Mohajer-6 and Shahed 136. Swiss 
companies, such as STMicroelectronics, U-Blox, TE Connectivity, 
TRACO Electronics, they produced microchips and other critical 
components for these weapons. On paper, they terminated any 
trade with Russia, because Switzerland introduced in March 22 
those sanctions, like other European countries. Investigations 
prove otherwise, because they are still able to trade these 
components through third countries such as China, such as 
Turkey.
    We--for example, I give you one example to show how easy it 
is and how transparent it is. Yet, Swiss Government is not 
investigating it. For example, the Swiss company U-Blox, which 
is based in Zurich, it is a world-renowned manufacturer of 
microchips. They had around 10-14 shipments of different 
equipment, including navigation model, to Chinese companies 
that later sold those to Russian company, SMT iLogic. This 
company is linked to special technological center which is an 
official manufacturer of Orlan drones, in Russia.
    They are--interesting part of the story that Switzerland 
sanctioned SMT iLogic only in January 2023, almost 1 year after 
the full-scale invasion began. Even more striking story is 
another company which directly basically supplies Swiss 
machinery to Russian war factories, which was sanctioned by 
United States back in 2014, Galika AG. As of April 2023, they 
are still not sanctioned by Switzerland and still operating, 
according to investigations of Swiss journalists.
    I want to emphasize this, that if Switzerland is so 
principled about not being part of any armed conflict in the 
world, why it is not enforcing measures to stop supply of its 
critical components to Russian and Iranian weapons? This is the 
question we are asking. We ask to you as Members of the 
Congress, to make sure--is to make sure that the sanction 
regime and global export control coalition, which was created 
by the United States, will become a functioning mechanism, 
because the challenge of stopping their critical technology is 
not only Swiss challenge.
    We know that majority of those components into--in these 
weapons, they come from the United States. United States should 
lead by example. United States should include Switzerland in 
this multilateral effort. Swiss Government, they should change 
their policies. They should provide very strict regulation to 
their companies to basically make sure that there is no re-
export of military equipment to end users in Russia, because 
feeding Russian war machine with its technology while denying 
weapons to Ukraine does not look like neutrality to me. Thank 
you for your attention. Glory to Ukraine. God bless America.
    Co-Chairman Cardin: Well, let me thank all three of the 
witnesses. This is just unacceptable. We cannot allow the 
secrecy of Switzerland's banking laws to prevent the Western 
global policies to isolate corrupt leaders. As has been pointed 
out, we have certain tools here in the United States. We have 
certain treaty responsibilities with other countries. We have 
certain banking rules. We have to recognize that we are in a 
fight right now to preserve democratic states, and Ukraine is 
the front line. One of the best strategies we have is to 
isolate Russia through effective sanctions. If we allow the 
laundering of assets, then the sanctions are just not going to 
be as effective as they need to be. For many reasons, this is 
just not acceptable.
    We have now been joined by our House colleagues. I am going 
to turn the gavel over to Chairman Wilson. Once again, let me 
thank all three of the witnesses for your testimony.

  OPENING STATEMENT OF JOE WILSON, CHAIRMAN, U.S. HOUSE, FROM 
                         SOUTH CAROLINA

    Chairman Wilson: Thank you very much, Co-Chairman Senator 
Ben Cardin. What a honor to be here with you. Something you are 
going to see is how bipartisan this is, the concern that we 
have of indeed a global conflict between dictatorships and 
democracies. Republicans and Democrats are united as never 
before on an issue. In fact, I am going to prove it right away 
because I am going to recognize Senator Roger Wicker from the 
great State of Mississippi as to--and I appreciate Senator 
Cardin, again, for his leadership here. So--and then we will 
proceed with further statements and questions.
    Senator Wicker: Well, thank you. I do appreciate that. 
Senator Cardin and I have made opening statements. I am happy 
to hear from our House members. I can proceed to a question or 
two from our witnesses.
    In that case, Mr. Browder, your suggestion at the close of 
your testimony is quite astounding. I am sure it sounds rather 
foreboding to government officials in Switzerland, that you are 
recommending that our government actually sanction specific 
Swiss officials just as we sanctioned corrupt Russian 
officials. So you realize that this is--would be a pivotal 
moment in U.S. foreign policy. Would you like to talk about 
that, and what you think the realistic chances are of 
persuading our government to take this step?
    Mr. Browder: Thank you, Senator Wicker. It is a suggestion 
I do not make lightly. I have spent the last 13 years watching 
the situation deteriorate in--I should say, this tip of the 
iceberg, if you will, in Switzerland deteriorate. I was just 
interviewed by several Swiss journalists. They have said to me 
they do not really care what we are saying here in America 
about this kind of abuse. They have their ways of doing things, 
and who are we to criticize them? That was exactly the same 
attitude that the Russians had when they killed and covered up 
the murder of Sergei Magnitsky. It is a sort of defiance of the 
law.
    Is it realistic? I do not think any--when I, with you and 
Senator Cardin and the others, started the Magnitsky Act 
campaign, nobody thought it was realistic that we could ever 
sanction Russian officials. Everybody said, that is impossible. 
We could not do that. The argument always was, we are not 
sanctioning Russia. I mean, now we are sanctioning Russia, but 
back then the argument was we are going after the people who 
were breaking the rules. If they break the rules and the legal 
system does not allow any recourse, then that is what we are 
going to do. We can still have diplomatic relations with 
Russia, but we can sanction those individuals.
    I am not suggesting that our governments break relations 
with Switzerland. That would be crazy. What I am suggesting is 
that there is clearly an abuse of law that is taking place 
within the Swiss system that they do not have any kind of 
recourse to fix it, that we have tried from the outside and 
they have ignored us. This does get people's attention. That is 
what--and so will our government do it? I do not know. That is 
what we are here for, is--I am here for as a witness, and you 
are here for as a person overseeing the work of the government, 
is to try to get the right thing done.
    Senator Wicker: It is actually the Russian people whose 
money is being stolen by these corrupt leaders.
    Mr Browder: Indeed. So, and our mutual friend Vladimir 
Kara-Murza has been here many times as a Russian opposition 
politician to say that the regular people of Russia and the 
regular people of Switzerland, and the regular people of the 
United States do not want leaders stealing and do not want 
people promoting that. We are doing everybody a favor by 
holding those who are responsible and those who enable those 
responsible--holding their feet to the fire.
    Senator Wicker: Have you--have you gained some allies 
within the Swiss Government, or within the Swiss populace, for 
your position in this regard? Are some Swiss people helping us 
in this regard?
    Mr. Browder: Well, one person who I was hoping would be 
here today, but could not travel to Washington for personal 
reasons, is the most senior specialist on corruption and money 
laundering in Switzerland. He is a professor of criminology 
from--a former professor from the Basel University. His name is 
Mark Pieth. Mark is probably the leading voice in Switzerland. 
He is hugely on our side in this endeavor. He wants Switzerland 
to be an honest country. There are many people that he knows 
who are supporting him and supporting me in this whole 
endeavor.
    It is quite interesting, one do not want to put too much 
emphasis on social media because it can be manipulated, but 
when I started to put out statements on social media about this 
hearing, people were coming out of the woodwork, both 
internationally and in Switzerland, saying--particularly the 
Swiss--saying, we are ashamed of what our country is doing. 
We-- you know, good on you, you know, trying to make something 
happen here.
    Senator Wicker: Mr. Sullivan, tell us, first of all, about 
your organization. Then sort of give us a little more 
information about the type of activities the government is 
engaging in to investigate your organization, and what you are 
doing to unearth and expose this corruption.
    Mr. Sullivan: The Organized Crime and Corruption Reporting 
Project is very quietly the--one of the largest investigative 
reporting organizations on Earth. We have about 65 
investigative editors working with some 600 journalists around 
the world, doing large numbers--two to three investigative 
projects a week.
    Senator Wicker: Are you self-supporting, or do you have--
    Mr. Sullivan: We are funded by governments, including the 
U.S. Government. We are funded by large, institutional donors 
and private individuals. Our mission is largely to create 
investigative reporting around the world, to bring together 
investigative reporters in countries, to collaborate across 
borders looking at large, important stories that are out there, 
including money laundering, drug trafficking, things of that 
nature.
    Senator Wicker: Tell us, if you will, about the extent to 
which you are being investigated. Was it just a flash in the 
pan, or does that continue?
    Mr. Sullivan: It was pretty much a flash in the pan. We are 
pretty good at protecting sources--[laughs]--so there was no 
way they could ever get to that source. They did set up an 
investigation and they did look into it. We were not privy to 
what actually they looked at, but they failed.
    Senator Wicker: Then, Ms. Tregub, tell us about your 
organization. Also, are there other countries that 
intentionally or inadvertently are manufacturing or 
participating in the development of weaponry that winds up in 
the hands of Russians?
    Ms. Tregub: Certainly. Our organization, since we 
specialize in defense industry, we were able, after the full-
scale invasion, began to study different weapons that were used 
against Ukraine, and that were captured by Ukraine. We found--
we analyzed around 300 components coming from U.S., actually, 
from 60 different companies from United States. This is 
unfortunately the leading country out of Western countries 
supplying their dual-use critical components.
    When it comes to other countries, like I said, in Europe 
Switzerland is No. 1. Then we have Germany, we have the 
Netherlands, we have United Kingdom, Austria, France. These are 
European countries. Also we found some Japanese equipment. What 
is interesting--
    Senator Wicker: It is not just the Swiss.
    Ms. Tregub: It is not just the Swiss, but like I emphasized 
the paradox here that Swiss are much more sensitive about not 
participating in any armed conflict and being neutral. How come 
they become number-one European country in critical components 
in Russian weapons? This is the question here. Yes, it is a 
global problem which should be tackled by those countries. We 
will now investigate more weapons, because we want to see how 
now maybe the number of these Western components is reducing, 
because this information is now in the public. We published--
our organization published several reports. We talked to Wall 
Street Journal and other big media.
    After this, we were reached out by many governments, by 
Japanese Government, by American Government. They were asking 
us, what can be done? Can you give us more material? Swiss 
Government never reached out to us, even though they are No. 1 
country. We will continue this work. Definitely we think that, 
like I mentioned, a lot of work still needs to be done by you 
here in the United States.
    Senator Wicker: Just one other thing, just so the thousands 
and thousands of people listening right now understand who you 
represent. You are a nongovernmental organization. Where do you 
get your financing?
    Ms. Tregub: Yes, that is right. We are a civil society 
organization in Ukraine. We get our funding from different 
Governments--European, British, Swedish, French, private 
donations. Just like OCCRP was saying.
    Senator Wicker: Thank you. I will yield back at this point, 
Mr. Chairman.
    Chairman Wilson: Thank you very much, Senator Wicker. We 
appreciate so much your leadership.
    Ladies and gentlemen and colleagues, I am Joe Wilson, a 
Member of Congress from South Carolina. I am very grateful to 
be serving as the new Chairman of the Helsinki Commission, 
Organization of Security and Cooperation in Europe. I am really 
grateful, sadly, that we were delayed by votes in the House. I 
have been joined by Congresswoman Victoria Spartz of Indiana. 
We are going to be here, and I am going to make an opening 
statement and then refer to Congresswoman Spartz to ask, that 
we follow the 5-minute rule, and we will stick to 5 minutes of 
questions. Then I will ask 5 minutes of questions.
    With my opening statement, this is a critical hearing on 
money laundering and sanctions evasion in Switzerland. I 
especially appreciate Switzerland in that the communities I 
represent of central South Carolina were initially settled by 
German-Swiss farmers in the early 1800's. We treasure our Swiss 
heritage. Sadly, we see ourselves in an existential battle 
between democracy with rule of law opposing dictatorships with 
rule of gun. We did not choose this battle. Now that it is 
here, democracy must prevail, and all democracies should be 
working together.
    War criminal Putin is not only attempting to wipe Ukraine 
off the map, he is threatening all of Europe and all 
democracies. He, in his own words, does not intend to stop at 
Ukraine. Rather, he seeks to conquer Ukraine and use their 
resources of Ukraine to take over Moldova and Georgia, and 
invade Poland, Romania, and the Baltic states--where it has 
been stated that Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania are actually 
revealed as provinces to be resurrected and in a new Soviet 
Union.
    The threat to Americans is real, as the Chinese Communist 
Party is also waiting to invade Taiwan, and the regime in 
Tehran is developing nuclear weapons to vaporize the people of 
Israel as they chant ``Death to Israel. Death to America.'' The 
resolve of the Ukrainians has deterred other adversaries from 
engaging in mass murder and destabilization. Now we have to do 
everything in our power to help the Ukrainians win. Ukrainian 
victory is the most important goal in the world today, I 
believe, to further deter dictators who hate Western democracy 
and all it stands for. Territorial integrity must be achieved 
for peace through strength in Ukraine.
    This is why it is so important for democracies to work 
together to prevent dictators from evading sanctions and 
actively undermining Western civilization. We have a historic 
cooperation among democracies. Europe has woken up and is now 
taking Putin's murderous invasion seriously. The United States 
and our European allies are closer than ever before. It is 
inspiring to see the unity of the European Union, NATO, adding 
Finland and Sweden, and the Organization of Security and 
Cooperation in Europe, along with something also extraordinary, 
and that is in the United States, a unity of Republicans and 
Democrats to support the people of Ukraine.
    Sadly, Switzerland remains a weak link in the chain. 
Switzerland, as a fellow democracy a sister republic. The 
United States should be very close with Switzerland. The 
heritage of my home district is so clearly Swiss. Sadly, 
Switzerland has yet to address its enabling of dictators by 
remaining a money laundering and sanctions evasion hub. 
Although it has adopted European Union sanctions, it remains 
inundated with Russian oligarch money, and even now, 
remarkably, incredibly, sadly, plans to return stolen Russian 
money to those who stole it. It is Switzerland's own interest 
to embrace its democratic heritage and values and join the 
democratic world in resisting war criminal Putin and his thugs.
    That is why we are holding the hearing today. I just want 
to thank all three witnesses who have been here today. Mr. 
Browder is a hero of mine, in that he was not deterred when 
Sergei Magnitsky was murdered by a war criminal Putin. He led 
the effort for sanctions against the war criminals in Moscow. 
People said it could not be done, but we have the Magnitsky 
Act. I appreciate too, your courage for Vladimir Kara-Murza. 
This needs to be addressed, the total depravity of the regime 
and Moscow.
    Then, truly, Mr. Sullivan, what you are doing, a corruption 
reporting project, has never been more important. It is to not 
only report on corruption, but to deter it, and then to report 
where corruption has been addressed, which I believe has 
occurred in Ukraine where they are actively resisting 
corruption. Then it is really inspiring to me, Ms. Secretary 
General Tregub, the people of Ukraine have become an 
inspiration to the world.
    It is just so refreshing, as I mentioned, to see 
Republicans and Democrats, to see the European Union come 
together, and be so supportive. Almost $100 billion or more in 
aid to the people of Ukraine. Additionally, NATO, adding Sweden 
and Finland. Who would ever imagine in our lifetime that 
something that significant could occur. It is due to the--
respecting the inspiration of the people of Ukraine, what has 
been done. Over and over again, we need to be working together.
    With this, we truly are fighting--it is an existential 
fight, or disagreement--situation that is before us today, a 
competition, conflict between democracy and dictators. We must 
be on the side of democracy and rule of law to oppose dictators 
rule of gun. I hope, gosh, of all countries, that Sweden [sic; 
Switzerland] will reaffirm its democratic heritage and reject 
dictator blood money.
    With that, I refer to Congresswoman Victoria Spartz. She 
has an extraordinary insight. She is the only Member of 
Congress who is ever been born in the Soviet Union. Now, of 
course, she claims proudly her heritage of Ukraine.
    Victoria Spartz, all the way from Indiana.

     STATEMENT OF VICTORIA SPARTZ, U.S. HOUSE, FROM INDIANA

    Representative Spartz: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I apologize 
for my Yankee accent, but it is a pleasure to be here today. I 
apologize. I will try to be brief. We actually do have a 
Department of Justice oversight. I need to go. This is 
important function Congress does. You know, I actually agree 
with a lot of things that are brought up here because it does 
not matter from which country you are from--are you from U.K., 
Switzerland, UAE, or Cyprus, or Russia? If you do something 
wrong, you are doing something wrong. We have to really look 
carefully, you know, what is happened in in some of this 
country because if we do not have proper enforcement all of 
these laws that we are passing are becoming useless. This is 
very big problem in a lot of areas. You know, and it is not 
like if you are born in some country or another somehow you are 
made of special clay. [Laughs.] We have great people, good 
people in each country. We have to deal with that.
    My question is, if each of you maybe can mention briefly 
what is the biggest loopholes that you see egregious violations 
or schemes are using that? How to make sure if we address them 
we do have a proper due process? It is important for us that we 
establish, you know, and that is always a concern. How do we 
make sure when we put some of these policies in place we also 
have a proper due process? We do have the rule of law and we 
need to make sure. If you can maybe, each presenter briefly, 
you know, just share something with us, and some other 
solutions.
    Mr. Browder: Thank you, Congresswoman Spartz. I just want 
to touch on some numbers for you. The Swiss Bankers Association 
early in the conflict said that there was $200 billion of 
Russian money in Switzerland. The two witnesses, Mr. Sullivan 
and Ms. Tregub, have both--and they are experts, probably more, 
and do not have a conflict of interest--and said the number 
of--the amount of Russian money is probably much greater than 
that. Ms. Tregub said 400 billion dollars. I think Mr. Sullivan 
said orders of magnitude greater than that. So far, the Swiss 
have only frozen $7.8 billion of Russian money.
    What that tells you is that the system there in terms of--
in terms of going after the blood money that Putin has, that he 
can use to spend on killing Ukrainians, is pretty much 
unlimited in Switzerland. You know, we are spending lots of 
money supporting Ukraine. At the same time, the Swiss are 
allowing the Russians to have access to that money to kill 
Ukrainians, and we should do something to shut that down. If 
the Swiss are not willing to do it voluntarily, then we should 
put pressure on them. They were not willing to give the Nazi 
gold back to the Jewish people until Congress got involved. 
Congress has power here, and the Swiss respect that. Sometimes 
when people do not behave themselves, we need to give them an 
incentive to behave themselves. That is why I think we are all 
here. That is where you can play a role. Thank you.
    Representative Spartz: Mr. Sullivan.
    Mr. Sullivan: You know, the real problem is that the global 
economy now is really extremely difficult to understand, 
because companies are no longer companies. Bank accounts are no 
longer bank accounts. They are controlled by offshore 
companies. They are controlled by proxies. They are controlled 
by things that you as regulators cannot oversee, because the 
money goes--moves around the world. Law enforcement only works 
in a nation-State. It does not go beyond the borders. Mutual 
legal assistance treaties are ineffective often at tracking 
these things down. Organized crime and criminals know that if 
they move money, after 6 months there is no way anybody is 
going to be able to trace that money.
    What we have seen over the years is a different global 
economy that is really built on offshores. That is enabling 
Switzerland. Switzerland is a significant player in that 
industry. Their bankers, their trusts, their wealth management 
systems are all designed to basically hide not only Russian 
assets but, you know, assets of African dictators, and even 
Americans and other Europeans who want to hide from taxes. 
Consequently, countries, I think, need to look at what they are 
requiring when an offshore operates in their jurisdiction, when 
a bank account is set up by somebody offshore, and to look at 
who that ultimate beneficial owner is. To require this type of 
information from foreign companies.
    You know, if you look at both in New York, and in London, 
and in Paris, you all find whole luxury buildings owned by BVI 
companies, or offshores. This is all really a serious part of 
the problem. Switzerland has been a major player because they 
are such a credible banking system and their money is accepted 
everywhere. Really, it is--there is rot at the very core of the 
financial system, as long as offshores are allowed to really 
operate in these countries.
    Representative Spartz: My time has expired, but if you just 
briefly can mention quickly, because I am out of time, and Mr. 
Chairman, just a few seconds.
    Ms. Tregub: Oh, sure. I will not repeat on money laundering 
and banks. I just want to reiterate about the export controls, 
which I think is important to help stop the war. The export 
control measures should be expanded to target bigger number of 
dual use goods, and the U.S. should be leading this process as 
the leader of export control coalition. They should include 
Switzerland into this coalition. Generally, there should be 
some unified policies and procedures developed by the 
coalition, and companies, and individuals, and intermediaries 
who were involved in exporting those technology to Russia 
should be hold accountable. Or, there should be mechanisms for 
this.
    Representative Spartz: Thank you. Thank you. I yield back.
    Chairman Wilson: Thank you very much, Congresswoman 
Victoria Spartz. Thank you for being a champion for your 
birthplace, Ukraine. We really appreciate your service.
    Mr. Browder, what can be done? This may be repetitious, but 
what can be done to ensure that the stolen Russian money is not 
returned to those who stole it?
    Mr. Browder: Thank you, Chairman Wilson. I will repeat for 
you what I--what I testified before, because I think it is so 
important that you hear it firsthand. In the Magnitsky case, 
$20 million was frozen in Switzerland by law enforcement based 
on a criminal complaint that we filed where we identified the 
money. The money belonged to the tax officials--the husband of 
the tax official who approved the illegal tax refund that led 
to the murder of Sergei Magnitsky. The money belonged to the 
head of the Klyuev organized crime group that organized the 
whole crime, and various others. The person investigating the 
crime was corrupted. The person inside the Swiss police was 
corrupted by the Russians. He was bribed with hunting trips all 
over Russia. He was found to have been corrupted, he was fired, 
he was prosecuted, he was found guilty.
    The corruption by the Swiss courts--and the corruption was 
due--or the corruption with was meant specifically to close 
down the Magnitsky case. In spite of him being found out to be 
corrupt and doing all this terrible stuff, the Swiss law 
enforcement authorities are now stubbornly returning the money 
to the criminals who are on the U.S. sanctions list, on the 
Canadian on the U.K., and on the Australian sanctions list.
    This is a slap in our face. It is intolerable. We have made 
numerous representations to them, from Congress, from myself. 
The one thing we can do, and this is my proposal to the 
Helsinki Commission, and I say this with a heavy heart, is to 
sanction the individuals in the Swiss prosecutor's office who 
are involved in this corruption. The names of them are in the 
written testimony that I have submitted. We should, I believe, 
write a letter to the Secretary of State naming these 
individuals and asking the Secretary of State to sanction them 
under the Magnitsky Act.
    Chairman Wilson: Thank you for that suggestion. That is 
specific. I look forward to working with my colleagues to 
accomplish just what you requested. Then, Secretary General 
Tregub, how detrimental would it be to Putin's ability to wage 
war if the loopholes surrounding weapons components were 
closed? What can be done to save lives of young Russians being 
sacrificed in and Ukraine and the people of Ukraine?
    Ms. Tregub: Well, we definitely see that the Russian intent 
is to continue the war as long as they can. Yet they have this 
very, very highly technological weapons, very deadly weapons 
that are used against us, against Ukraine, against our peaceful 
civilians. Our organization published reports about how these 
particular weapons, like Kalibr missile, like Shahad drones, 
how they were used to destroy children summer camp, hospitals, 
and so on. If Russia is not able easily to replenish these 
weapons, then it will become much more difficult for them to 
wage this war against Ukraine, and to keep erasing Ukraine from 
the map.
    This is why we focused on them. As of political decision of 
Russia to wage this war, I do believe now that it used to be 
Putin's war, and now it is more Russia's war, and they are 
committed to this war. For me, it is surprising that more than 
1 year, more than 500 days into full-scale invasion, they still 
keep receiving critical technology, not from China. No. From 
democratic countries, including Switzerland and U.S.
    Chairman Wilson: Thank you for your efforts. I have 
actually visited Bucha. I visited the gravesites of the 
families that were just brutally murdered and then left to be 
buried in shallow graves. This has just got to be addressed. 
The people of Switzerland, of all people, it would be my 
anticipation to be actively involved with democracy. Mr. 
Sullivan, what has been effective in encouraging the Swiss to 
comply with international law and norms?
    Mr. Sullivan: I mean, nothing, is the quick answer. 
[Laughs.] I mean, you know, there has been--we can get 
information when law enforcement goes to Switzerland and 
requests it. That is an inefficient system, unfortunately. The 
Swiss will respond to law enforcement requests for information, 
but they will not be proactive whatsoever. It really does take 
pressure. You know, the United States has jurisdiction over 
Swiss U.S.-denominated accounts in Swiss banks. They have a lot 
of ability to put pressure on that. They have a lot of ability 
to demand, you know, these kind of, you know, extra due 
diligence when a Swiss bank is dealing with, for instance, an 
American bank.
    That is a way to basically put pressure on them. You know, 
the whole international system really depends on banks 
effectively working with banks. Anything you put in the way of 
it will immediately put those banks at a significant 
disadvantage. Consequently, any restrictions or regulations 
would be absolutely terrible for Swiss banks.
    Chairman Wilson: Again, as we are now concluding, I want to 
thank the witnesses for being here. Each of you have been 
really special to raise these issues. It is particularly--
again, it is so sad and heartbreaking to me, a country as great 
as Switzerland, and when you mentioned about banks. The 
integrity of the bank, that is the reason for their success. 
Part of that should certainly be to uncover and stop corruption 
around the world.
    With that we are adjourned.
    [Whereupon, at 2:29 p.m., the hearing ended.]
      
      
      

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