[House Hearing, 118 Congress]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]
MADURO STOLE THE ELECTIONS AGAIN: THE
RESPONSE TO FRAUD IN VENEZUELA
=======================================================================
HEARING
BEFORE THE
SUBCOMMITTEE ON THE WESTERN HEMISPHERE
OF THE
COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN AFFAIRS
U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
ONE HUNDRED EIGHTEENTH CONGRESS
SECOND SESSION
__________
September 20, 2024
__________
Serial No. 118-134
__________
Printed for the use of the Committee on Foreign Affairs
[GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Available: http://www.foreignaffairs.house.gov/, http://docs.house.gov,
or http://www.govinfo.gov
__________
U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE
63-343 PDF WASHINGTON : 2026
=======================================================================
COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN AFFAIRS
MICHAEL T. McCAUL, Texas, Chairman
CHRISTOPHER H. SMITH, New Jersey GREGORY MEEKS, New York, Ranking
JOE WILSON, South Carolina Member
SCOTT PERRY, Pennsylvania BRAD SHERMAN, California
DARRELL ISSA, California GERALD E. CONNOLLY, Virginia
ANN WAGNER, Missouri WILLIAM KEATING, Massachusetts
BRIAN MAST, Florida AMI BERA, California
TIM BURCHETT, Tennessee JOAQUIN CASTRO, Texas
MARK E. GREEN, Tennessee DINA TITUS, Nevada
ANDY BARR, Kentucky TED LIEU, California
RONNY JACKSON, Texas SUSAN WILD, Pennsylvania
YOUNG KIM, California DEAN PHILLIPS, Minnesota
MARIA ELVIRA SALAZAR, Florida COLIN ALLRED, Texas
BILL HUIZENGA, Michigan ANDY KIM, New Jersey
AUMUA AMATA COLEMAN RADEWAGEN, SARA JACOBS, California
American Samoa KATHY MANNING, North Carolina
FRENCH HILL, Arkansas SHEILA CHERFILUS-McCORMICK,
WARREN DAVIDSON, Ohio Florida
JIM BAIRD, Indiana GREG STANTON, Arizona
MICHAEL WALTZ, Florida MADELEINE DEAN, Pennsylvania
THOMAS KEAN, JR., New Jersey JARED MOSKOWITZ, Florida
MICHAEL LAWLER, New York JONATHAN JACKSON, Illinois
CORY MILLS, Florida SYDNEY KAMLAGER-DOVE, California
RICH McCORMICK, Georgia JIM COSTA, California
NATHANIEL MORAN, Texas JASON CROW, Colorado
JOHN JAMES, Michigan KWEISI MFUME, Maryland
KEITH SELF, Texas BRAD SCHNEIDER, Illinois
RYAN K. ZINKE, Montana
JAMES C. MOYLAN, Guam
Brendan Shields, Majority Staff Director
Sophia Lafargue, Minority Staff Director
------
SUBCOMMITTEE ON THE WESTERN HEMISPHERE
MARIA SALAZAR, Florida, Chairwoman
MARK GREEN, Tennessee JOAQUIN CASTRO, Ranking Member
BILL HUIZENGA, Michigan GREG STANTON, Arizona
WARREN DAVIDSON, Ohio JARED MOSKOWITZ, Florida
KEITH SELF, Texas SYDNEY KAMLAGER-DOVE, California
JOHN JAMES, Michigan
C O N T E N T S
----------
REPRESENTATIVES
Page
Opening Statement of Subcommittee Chairman Maria Elvira Salazar.. 1
Opening Statement of Subcommittee Ranking Member Joaquin Castro.. 3
WITNESSES
Statement of Kevin Sullivan, Deputy Assistant Secretary for
Brazil Southern Cone and Andean Affairs, Bureau of Western
Hemisphere Affairs, U.S. Department of State................... 5
Prepared Statement............................................. 8
Statement of Enrique Roig, Deputy Assistant Secretary, Bureau of
Democracy, Human Rights, and Labor, U.S. Department of State... 12
Prepared Statement............................................. 15
Statement of Greg Howell, Senior Deputy Assistant Administrator,
Bureau for Latin America and the Caribbean, U.S. Agency for
International Development...................................... 18
Prepared Statement............................................. 20
APPENDIX
Hearing Notice................................................... 40
Hearing Minutes.................................................. 42
Hearing Attendance............................................... 43
Questions for the Record
Questions submitted to Kevin Sullivan by Rep. Castro............. 44
Questions submitted to Greg Howell by Rep. Castro................ 50
Questions submitted to Greg Howell by Rep. Kamlager-Dove......... 51
Questions submitted to Kevin Sullivan by Rep. Kamlager-Dove...... 52
Questions submitted to Enrique Roig by Rep. Kamlager-Dove........ 54
Questions submitted to Kevin Sullivan by Rep. Rep Salazar........ 56
MADURO STOLE THE ELECTIONS AGAIN: THE RESPONSE TO FRAUD IN VENEZUELA
----------
Friday, September 20, 2024
House of Representatives,
Subcommittee on the Western Hemisphere,
Committee on Foreign Affairs,
Washington, DC.
The subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 11:33 a.m., in
room 2200, Rayburn House Office Building, Hon. Maria Elvira
Salazar (chair of the subcommittee) presiding.
Ms. Salazar. The Subcommittee on the Western Hemisphere
will come to order. The purpose of this hearing is to analyze
the ongoing prices in Venezuela and the United States' response
to Nicolas Maduro's attempt to steal Venezuelan's election on
the 28th of July. I now recognize myself for an opening
statement.
OPENING STATEMENT OF CHAIRMAN MARIA ELVIRA SALAZAR
I need to say that this is one of the most important
hearings that I will do or that I have done in my time in
Congress and the only one unfortunately that the U.S. Congress,
including the Senate, will be conducting on the stolen
elections in Venezuela.
So in that country, in Venezuela, there is a cruel
contradiction that has unfolded. Maduro has intensified its
brutality through jail and death. In the meantime,
unfortunately, American and European oil companies led by
Chevron, Repsol, Eni, and Maurel have now increased their
pumping and their profits directly fueling the tyrannical
machinery of oppression.
Look at this poster right here. As oppression goes up, so
does the desire of companies to do business with Maduro. Shame
on them. And here is the proof. Let's see. Go over here.
Look. Let's start with Chevron. Chevron, $435 million in
the month of August, Repsol, $165 million in profits, 1 month,
Eni, $165 million, and Maurel, France, $96 million in profits.
I represent the city of Miami. We are pro capitalism. We
are pro free market economy. I am very much pro energy sector
making a lot of money. But there are lines you do not cross
when profiting from other people's miseries.
Since the day of the election, 2,500 Venezuelans have been
thrown in jail and a bunch more have been killed. Anyone who
opposes Maduro faces a so-called re-education plan at prisons,
which in reality are concentration camps by the names of
Tocoron and Tocuyito.
In other words, as Venezuelan jails are crammed to
unprecedented levels, and all of these are facts, so are the
Maduro coffers courtesy of American and European companies.
Once again, shame on you.
Chevron, Repsol, Eni, and Maurel, blood is on your hands,
and it will be on yours, the Biden Administration, and on us,
the U.S. Congress, if we do not act today.
We are the United States, regardless of the party, we are
the beacon of the hope, we are the land of liberty, we are the
moral leaders of the world, we are the beacon of democracy so
let's behave accordingly, the Dems and the Republicans.
Venezuelan oil exports, oil exports, are at the highest
level in 4 years, close to 1 million barrels a day. Right here
it is, look almost 900,000. Look at the graph. Last month
Maduro made $666 million. What a figure, huh? What does that
remind you of? Exactly who he is, the devil, 666.
So what is it that we have to do right now, the Dems and
the Republicans together, specifically the Biden Administration
who has all of the power in your hands?
First of all, I believe that we have to put a pause on
every oil license for Venezuela granted by the Treasury
Department, a Department that the State Department guides what
to do.
We know very well that we are in an election cycle and that
the White House needs cheap gas at the pump because it is all
politics. But, you know, we can buy it from our friends, Guyana
or Ecuador or Colombia, or we can pump it here at home. That's
No. 1.
No. 2, there is a guy by the name of Edmundo Gonzalez who
won the Presidential election fair and square. He won 70
percent of the vote according to all data, so why don't we
recognize him as the legitimate President of Venezuela right
now as you the Biden Administration accorded in Barbados.
Maduro, you hold elections, and we are going to lift the
sanctions. We lifted the sanctions, but he did not hold free
and fair elections.
No. 3, let's confiscate Maduro's buddies' properties. No
more Disney World or Broadway. All of Maria Corina Machado's
supporters are being beaten on the streets and raped in jail.
Spain, Argentina, and Panama should be doing the same
thing. These are assets. These assets are fruits of a poisonous
tree with roots steeped in suffering.
And finally, you know, Denny Nicolas Maduro and Diosdado
Cabello are wanted criminals by the FBI. We know it. It is on
the website, the State Department website. So the Department of
Justice should put a price tag of $25 million on their heads,
which is the maximum amount that is allowed by law.
I am sure, distinguished gentlemen, that someone in the
Venezuelan armed forces will be highly motivated to put their
heads on a silver platter for that amount of money period. That
is what they deserve.
If we, the Biden Administration and the Republicans, do not
fix this mess, we are going to have another 4 million
Venezuelans knocking on our southern border tomorrow. They do
not want to leave their home. So why don't we help them to stay
by bringing back democracy?
Now I am going to say a few words in Spanish for the
Venezuelans who are watching me in Venezuela.
[Speaking foreign language.]
The chair now recognizes the ranking member, the gentleman
from Texas, Mr. Castro, for a statement he may have.
OPENING STATEMENT OF RANKING MEMBER JOAQUIN CASTRO
Mr. Castro. Thank you. Thank you, gentlemen, for your
testimony today on this very important issue in Latin America
and welcome to our witnesses from the State Department and
USAID. Thank you so much for your work.
This is a timely hearing on what I believe is one of the
most pressing issues in Latin America at least, the
humanitarian and political crisis in Venezuela.
First and foremost, let me be clear about the facts. I have
said and continue to believe that the July 28 Venezuela
elections represent the biggest opportunity for Venezuelan
democracy in years. The Biden Administration was right to
support the Venezuelan opposition's efforts to negotiate the
conditions for a competitive election.
Nobody expected the elections to be free or fair, and they
clearly weren't. The Maduro regime disqualified eligible
candidates, intimidated voters, and attempted to manipulate the
playing field to ensure his victory. And also let me be clear,
on July 28, the people of Venezuela, amidst intimidation,
threats, and harassment overwhelming voted for Edmundo Gonzalez
to be their next President.
The regime, knowing it lost and lost big, refused to
release the election results as required by Venezuelan law. And
so when we--I know there has been some debate, particularly in
Venezuela and Latin America about who has the burden of proof
to show they won the election there.
It was required by Venezuelan law for the government to
release those results and they did not. Despite this and due to
the brave actions of Venezuelans fighting for their democracy,
the official tallies from over 80 percent of polling sites were
released, uploaded online, and verified, clearly demonstrating
that Edmundo Gonzalez received enough votes to win.
In a shocking display of authoritarianism, the regime
backed National Electoral Council of Venezuela announced that
Nicolas Maduro won the elections without releasing any election
results.
Following this transparent attempt to steal the election,
the regime has engaged in mass repression and violence and
intimidation of foreign governments, including through threats
to diplomatic missions protected by the Vienna Convention.
In doing so, Maduro has alienated the vast majority of the
Venezuelan people that voted for Mr. Gonzalez and
diplomatically isolated his own country in our hemisphere.
I want to recognize that the Venezuelan opposition, against
all odds, was able to unify and create a strong, diverse
coalition of those ready for new a democratic chapter in their
country. These were folks who ideologically were both on the
right and the left.
These elections created an opening for Venezuelan
democracy, but it's ultimately an opening that must be followed
up upon. We must continue to engage with the political
opposition, both in-country and exile, civil society, and local
communities in Venezuela to find a real durable path forward.
We must work with our democratic allies in the region to
explore all diplomatic avenues and present a unified front
against Maduro's dictatorship.
The United States is not and cannot be the primary actor
here. Nicolas Maduro has attempted to characterize the
overwhelming desire of Venezuelans for change as a plot of the
United States to topple his regime, which plays into his hand.
This is about the Venezuelan people's right for their
democratic rights. It is not about us. As important as the
United States actions are, our role is and should be a
supporting one.
Governments across the political spectrum, on the left and
the right, have recognized Maduro's actions as illegitimate and
unacceptable. That includes Chile, the Dominican Republic,
Guatemala, Panama, Argentina and others.
Other nations, including Brazil, Colombia, and Mexico have
not recognized Maduro's claims of victory, an important signal.
We must take advantage of each of our country's individual
relationships and strengths to unequivocally stand behind those
in Venezuela, not only in just achieving their goals of
establishing democracy and protection of human rights, but to
also address the humanitarian and migration crisis that has
wide-reaching consequences around the region.
Elections are one part of the entire democratic process. As
we have seen recently in Guatemala, Brazil, and even the United
States, what happens between Election Day and Inauguration Day
matters.
I believe, as dire as the situation is, that it is not
over. What happens in Venezuela matters to the United States
and for the region. The ultimate outcome of this election, both
in the positions and the countries that take--both in the
positions that countries take and whether the results are
ultimately honored will be a significant test for democracy in
our hemisphere.
I hope during this hearing that the State Department and
USAID will articulate how the United States will approach the
next few months, and how we will support the democratic process
in Venezuela. And I look forward to hearing from our witnesses
on how the United States will support these efforts.
I yield back, Chair.
Ms. Salazar. Thank you, Mr. Castro, and other members of
the committee are reminded that opening statements may be
submitted for the record. Today we have witnesses from the
State Department and USAID who cover American interests in
South America for the Biden Administration.
Starting with the Hon. Kevin Sullivan, he is the Deputy
Assistant Secretary for Brazil Southern Cone and the Andean
Affairs for the Bureau of Western Hemisphere Affairs of the
United States Department of State.
And Mr. Enrique Roig is a Deputy Assistant Secretary for
the Bureau of Democracy, Human Rights and Labor at the U.S.
Department of State as well.
And Mr. Greg Howell is a Senior Deputy Assistant
Administrator for the Bureau for Latin America and the
Caribbean of the U.S. Agency for International Development.
Thank you all for being here. Your full statements will be
made part of the record, and I will ask you to keep your spoken
remarks to 5 minutes.
I now recognize Ambassador Sullivan for his opening
statement. And welcome, sir.
STATEMENT OF HON. KEVIN SULLIVAN
Mr. Sullivan. Good morning. Chairwoman Salazar, Ranking
Member Castro, distinguished members of the subcommittee, thank
you for the opportunity to testify before you today----
Mr. Castro. Could you use the mic, please?
Mr. Sullivan. Oh. Thank you for this opportunity to testify
today at this critical moment in Venezuela's history.
The U.S. Government has remained steadfast in our
commitment to support the people of Venezuela in their
democratic aspirations.
Last October, the Venezuelan democratic opposition and
representatives of Nicolas Maduro signed the Barbados
Agreement, a roadmap for resolving Venezuela's political,
economic, and humanitarian crisis by creating the conditions
needed to hold competitive and inclusive elections in
Venezuela.
Soon after, Maria Corina Machado won the opposition's
primary election to run as their consensus Presidential
candidate overwhelmingly, with over 90 percent of the vote.
The U.S. Government took steps to incentivize the
competitive election. Also in October 2023, the Department of
the Treasury issued a temporary general license authorizing
transactions in Venezuela's oil and natural gas sector for 6
months.
However, in January, the Maduro-backed Supreme Justice
Tribunal unjustly barred Maria Corina Machado from holding
office, and her chosen replacement was also prevented from
registering to run for President.
In response to this anti-democratic behavior and repression
by Maduro, Treasury announced the end of that general license
for oil and gas activities, but we continued to push for a
competitive Presidential election.
Just prior to the deadline, Maduro's National Electoral
Commission allowed Edmundo Gonzalez Urrutia to register as the
opposition's consensus candidate. Gonzalez campaigned
throughout the country with Mar!a Corina Machado beside him,
drew enormous crowds, and remained on the ballot through
election day.
On July 28, the Venezuelan people turned out in truly
historic numbers. More than 12 million Venezuelans voted in the
face of threats, arrests, arbitrary rules, and intimidation.
They voted to express their desire for peaceful democratic
change in their country.
Pre-election polls, opinion polls, election day exit polls,
precinct level results collected by democratic opposition
parties' poll watchers all pointed to a clear victory for
Edmundo Gonzalez. Yet hours later, the Maduro-controlled CNE
declared Nicolas Maduro the winner.
To this day, the CNE has not published the precinct level
results or presented any other evidence to substantiate its
baseless claim of a Maduro victory.
By contrast, shortly after the election, the democratic
opposition posted online official precinct level tally sheets
representing more than 80 percent of all polling places
nationwide. These tally sheets, which have been corroborated by
independent observers and electoral experts, show clearly that
Edmundo Gonzalez won 67 percent of the vote to Maduro's 30
percent.
The opposition's impressive effort to collect this polling
station information is a testament to their organization and
tenacity and to the people of Venezuela, who at great risk came
out to demand that their voices be heard.
The Carter Center and the U.N. Panel of Experts, who had
been invited by Maduro representatives to observe the election,
each published independent assessments noting that the tally
sheets collected and released by the opposition appeared
genuine, while the CNE announcement of the election results
claiming Maduro won lacked transparency and integrity and
failed to meet even basic democratic standards.
Maduro and his allies have continued to refuse to recognize
the will of the Venezuelan people or to heed the repeated calls
from the international community to release detailed election
results and have instead launched widespread repression in an
attempt to cling to power. My colleague from DRL can provide
additional details about that.
Winning candidate Edmundo Gonzalez Urrutia is now in Spain
because Maduro representatives issued a warrant for his arrest
on baseless, politically motivated charges. The United States
and international partners have clearly signaled to Maduro and
his representatives that their actions and fraudulent claims to
have won the election are unacceptable.
Few governments have recognized Maduros shameless attempt
to claim victory. On September 12, the Departments of Treasury
and State announced sanctions and visa restrictions on Maduro-
aligned officials for their role in the election manipulation
and the repressive aftermath of the elections.
We are working with our partners in the international
community to coordinate additional efforts to hold Maduro and
his representatives accountable.
Democratic governments in the region and beyond are unified
in pressing Maduro for transparency and an end to repression,
with strong U.S. leadership and support. The Organization of
America States, for example, adopted a U.S. led resolution by
consensus. More than 50 countries supported Panama's statement
of concern in New York outside the U.N. Security Council last
week.
With the U.N. General Assembly approaching, we are leading
additional lines of diplomatic effort with our partners to
continue applying pressure.
Distinguished members of the committee, if we had said 2
years ago that Venezuela would hold competitive elections
resulting in a clear victory by a consensus candidate
representing democratic change, few would have believed it. But
that's where we are today, thanks to the Venezuelan people's
bravery and resilience, the organizational capacity and
resourcefulness of Venezuela's democratic opposition, and many
other partners in the international community.
A sizable majority of Venezuelans chose Edmundo Gonzalez
Urrutia and peaceful democratic change, not six more years of
Nicolas Maduro, and the world sees that more clearly than ever
after the July 28 election.
The United States will continue to advocate for Venezuelan
led discussions that lead to respect for the will of the
Venezuelan people, a peaceful resolution of this crisis, a
return to democratic norms, and an end to the repression and
violence. The people of Venezuela deserve nothing less.
Thank you.
[The prepared statement of Mr. Sullivan follows:]
[GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Ms. Salazar. Thank you to you, Ambassador. Thank you,
Ambassador Sullivan. I now recognize Mr. Roig for his opening
statement. Thank you, sir, and welcome.
STATEMENT OF ENRIQUE ROIG
Mr. Roig. Chairwoman Salazar, Ranking Member Castro, and
distinguished Members of the subcommittee, thank you for the
opportunity to testify before you today about the ongoing human
rights violations in Venezuela following the July 28th
Presidential election.
The post-election repression in Venezuela has been both
severe and unprecedented in the country's history. Nicolas
Maduro's regime has resorted to a campaign of violence and
intimidation aimed at suppressing the democratic opposition and
the Venezuelan people.
As of September 9, there have been 24 deaths and over 2,000
detentions, including 84 minors linked directly to the regime's
crackdown on those contesting the National Electoral
Commission's election results. The daily average number of
detained or disappeared is nearly 10 times higher than the pre-
election average.
Security forces routinely stop citizens to review their
WhatsApp messaging chats for potential organizing involvement
and deployed an app for Maduro sympathizers to report suspected
efforts to assemble.
The anti-NGO law passed by Maduro's National Assembly in
August, along with revival of the law against fascism highlight
Maduro's intentions to undermine civil society. These laws are
designed to make it nearly impossible for NGO's and opposition
organizations to operate in Venezuela, limiting their ability
to provide services, organize, or campaign freely.
The case of CNE rector Juan Carlos Delpino is particularly
concerning. As one of two opposition-aligned CNE members,
Delpino exposed election irregularities, stating the CNE had no
evidence Maduro won. He has since gone into hiding, fearing
retribution.
Edmundo Gonzalez Urrutia, who won the most votes on July
28, faces an arrest warrant without legitimate charges and has
sought refuge in Spain due to credible threats to his and his
family's safety.
The Department of State, including the Bureau of Democracy,
Human Rights, and Labor, remains deeply committed to supporting
the Venezuelan opposition, human rights defenders, and civil
society. We are engaged in direct communication with opposition
leaders, including Edmundo Gonzalez and Mar!a Corina Machado.
Secretary Blinken spoke with both leaders shortly after the
election to express U.S. concerns for their safety and support
for their democratic cause and continues to do so.
We have also supported Venezuelan defenders of democracy
through multilateral diplomacy. The Organization of American
States passed a U.S.-sponsored resolution that calls for
transparency, impartial review of the election results, and the
protection of electoral integrity.
Additionally, the United States continues to work through
the U.N. Human Rights Council in supporting the renewal of the
mandate of fact finding mission on Venezuela. The fact finding
Mission plays a vital role in the international community's
efforts to hold the Maduro regime accountable for human rights
abuses.
The United States also joined the European Union and 28
other governments in a Human Rights Council Joint Statement on
Venezuela, demanding an end to repression and the release of
detained opposition figures.
It is also worth noting that on September 12, the United
States, along with 50 other countries, joined Panama's Foreign
Minister outside the U.N. Security Council to call on
Venezuelans to begin constructive and inclusive discussions to
restore democratic norms.
Despite these actions, the operating environment in
Venezuela remains dire. NGO's and opposition figures struggle
amidst violence, legal harassment, and censorship. The Anti-NGO
Act criminalizes essential civil society activities, restricts
international funding, imposes burdensome regulations, and
threatens organizations challenging the regime's narrative.
Maduro's regime also controls the media landscape, making
it difficult for the opposition to disseminate their message.
Social media platforms, a critical tool for the opposition,
have been targeted by regime surveillance and internet
blackouts. Despite these challenges, the opposition continues
to rally support.
Unfortunately, direct access to detained figures, such as
opposition leaders or activists, remains extremely limited.
Maduro has made it clear that international organizations and
governments will face barriers to oversight, as demonstrated by
the closure of the OHCHR office in Venezuela.
Implementing programs is increasingly difficult with many
activities revised or postponed given the ongoing repression.
During the most intense digital repression wave the country has
ever experienced, DRL programs have maintained uninterrupted
access to blocked content. DRL programs have also been
documenting cases of political prisoners and arbitrary
detentions, informing the world on current patterns that have
emerged post-election.
Additionally, DRL programs have helped unify communities
and networks that share the desire for a restoration of their
country's democracy, and DRL remains committed to continuing
its essential support.
In closing, the human rights violations and abuses
following the July 28th election in Venezuela are a direct
attack on the country's democracy. Maduro's regime uses severe
repression to systematically stifle dissent and cling to power.
The United States remains steadfast in its support for
Venezuelan civil society, opposition leaders, and the
democratic aspirations of the Venezuelan people.
We will continue to work tirelessly with the international
community to apply pressure, demand accountability, and support
those who are fighting for a free and democratic Venezuela.
This is evident from our announcement on September 12, of
sanctions and visa restrictions on individuals undermining the
electoral process and suppressing the democratic opposition.
Chairwoman Salazar and Members of the subcommittee, thank
you for the opportunity to testify today. I look forward to
your queries and to working with this Committee in the future.
Thank you.
[The prepared statement of Mr. Roig follows:]
[GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Ms. Salazar. Thank you for being here. Thank you, Mr. Roig.
I now recognize Mr. Howell for his opening statement.
STATEMENT OF GREG HOWELL
Mr. Howell. Thank you, Chair Salazar, Ranking Member
Castro, and members of the subcommittee for the opportunity to
testify today on this vitally important issue.
As you know, on July 28, the Venezuelan people went to the
polls en masse to let their voices be heard. Their message was
unequivocal. By historic margins, they chose Edmundo Gonzalez,
a former diplomat, to bring about a new era of change and
democratic governance to Venezuela. Yes, Maduro has gone to
great lengths to avoid recognizing the true election results.
Since July 28, he has wielded his control over the National
Electoral Council to announce fake election results, without
presenting a shred of evidence. He has also wielded his control
over the Supreme Court in an attempt to grant a veneer of
legitimacy to the National Electoral Councils lies.
Maduro had also unleashed an unprecedented wave of
repression. He has unjustly detained journalists, political
actors, and human rights defenders. These political prisoners
are held in inhumane conditions and frequently subjected to
torture. Tragically, many of those are minors.
Most notably, Maduro has directed baseless charges of
intimidation at Edmundo Gonzalez, causing him to flee the
country.
Despite the dire situation in Venezuela today, we cannot
lose sight of the fact that Venezuelan voters, democracy
activists, candidates, and political parties have achieved
something truly extraordinary. Long divided by ideology and
personality, the Venezuelan opposition came together last
summer in a primary election to choose Maria Corina Machado by
overwhelming margins and stunning participation rates.
When Maduro blocked Machado from running, the democratic
coalition remained united, ultimately following her lead to
support Edmundo Gonzalez as their candidate for President. And
despite the threats, the arrests, and a broadcast media
blackout that aimed to silence the Gonzalez campaign,
Venezuelans sought out information and participated in rallies.
As the election approached, civil society and democracy
activists informed and registered votes as Maria Corina Machado
campaigned alongside Edmundo Gonzalez.
And on election day, opposition poll watchers risked their
lives to remain in voting centers and demand election results
from each polling center as stipulated by Venezuela's election
law.
And in the days after the election, they were able to put
together those results and prove that Edmundo Gonzalez beat
Nicolas Maduro by a margin of over 35 percent. They did what
Maduro and his Electoral Council have refused to do, making the
results public, so that the will of the Venezuelan people would
be known to the entire world.
USAID is very proud to support democratic actors in
Venezuela and around the world. We work to support their
ability to organize internally, broaden their democratic
coalition, exercise their freedoms of expression and peaceful
assembly and defend democratic principles.
Our programs also enhance the Venezuelan's people access to
uncensored information by supporting independent media
reporting. At this critical time, our programs are focused on
strengthening civil society and human rights organization's
capacities to report effectively on the dire human rights
situation in the country and carry out oversight of the
activities of Maduro and his representatives.
In the days after the election, we have seen countries
around the world rally for the cause of Venezuela and the
democracy there. Leaders from across the political spectrum are
calling for transparency and several have joined the United
States in acknowledging Edmundo Gonzalez's overwhelming
victory.
Shamefully, Maduro has ignored the international
community's call for transparency. If Maduro continues to
ignore the will of the Venezuelan people, there is a real
concern that many more Venezuelans will begin to leave their
country soon in addition to the nearly 8 million who have
already fled.
As the Venezuelan people continue to fight for democracy,
it is crucial that we continue building international support
for a democratic transition in Venezuela. We must ensure that
the international community does not turn away from the
Venezuelan people, who have risked so much to make their voices
heard and their votes counted.
Thank you very much.
[The prepared statement of Mr. Howell follows:]
[GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Ms. Salazar. Thank you, Mr. Howell. Thank you for your
statement. Thank you very much for being here. And I now
recognize myself for 5 minutes of question.
Well, I think that after having heard three of you, we are
all on the same page. We agree that Maduro stole the election.
You guys have--you gentlemen have said that severe and
unprecedented repression, minors, 10 times higher than before
the elections, the detention, the CNE guy or that gentleman
that is now in hiding that said Maduro did not win, inhumane
conditions to minors, the CNE is not publishing the voting
tallies. So we all agree.
So my question to you, to Mr. Sullivan then is on September
1, 33 days after Maduro did everything that you guys described,
the United States renewed the license for Chevron to operate in
Venezuela.
You don't have money. You do not have money to grease the
repressive apparatus or the police State. Why did you do that?
Why did the State Department renew that license, specific
general individual?
We don't need to go into the words. I just want to know why
did you do that? And do not tell me that Treasury told you
because State dictates, and Treasury follows.
Mr. Sullivan. Thanks for the question, Chairwoman Salazar.
As you know, decisions about sanctions are made with
interagency consultation. They are taken--sanctions are
administered by the Treasury Department, and they make the
announcements on them.
Ms. Salazar. State tells Treasury what to do. Do not try to
fool me, Mr. Sullivan. We know that the State Department is the
one that dictates foreign policy. And if the State Department
did not want Chevron, and Repsol, and the others to have a
general, individual or specific whatever type of license,
Treasury would not have granted it. Am I correct?
Mr. Sullivan. We continue to review our sanctions policy.
Ms. Salazar. Yes or no? Why did you, the State Department,
renew the license for Chevron, our company, 33 days after--33
days after Maduro did everything you guys described. There has
to be a reason. Did the White House put pressure on you? Did
they call and say, hey, we need free cheap oil?
Mr. Sullivan. Well, as I mentioned, Chairwoman Salazar, the
U.S. Government coordinates on these issues, Treasury
administers the licenses. And we continue to review our
sanctions policy with respect to Venezuela with a view to
advancing our overall objectives of promoting, in this case, a
democratic transition.
Ms. Salazar. How can you promote a democratic transition if
we have agreed that Maduro stole the election? And all we are
doing is helping him stay in power and creating another migrant
crisis because the other gentleman, Mr. Roig, just said it, we
are talking about 4 million Venezuelans have said publicly that
they are going to leave if Maduro stays because there is no
food. Because there are no jobs. Because they have repressed
the apparatus.
So, again, explain to me how come you decided to not only
give to Chevron but to all the others that are just fueling the
regime. Tell me.
Mr. Sullivan. So since the election, as you have seen, the
U.S. has been very active with our international partners in
developing concerted international pressure in favor of
transparency, publication of the----
Ms. Salazar. You are not asking my question, Mr. Sullivan.
Why did you renew the oil licenses for Chevron? Why?
Mr. Sullivan. So administration of our sanctions policy is
something that we do as part of our overall diplomatic strategy
in Venezuela. And we continue to review that policy, trying to
choose targeted actions that will best contribute to our
overall efforts to create conditions for the Venezuelan people
to be respected----
Ms. Salazar. I understand. But you sponsored the Barbados
Accords. And the Accords said that you were going to lift
sanctions, meaning the State Department, the United States of
America was going to lift sanctions if Maduro played by the
rules that he signed in Barbados.
Maduro, as you just explained, did not play, not even by
one of the rules. So then why did you give the ability for them
to continue making money?
Mr. Sullivan. So I think you know, Chairwoman, that about a
week ago announced additional individual sanctions to hold
accountable some of the key officials that were involved with
the electoral manipulation that we are talking about as well as
some of the brutal repression that we have detailed in our
testimony.
That was a way in which we are beginning to hold
accountable those associated with Maduro who have been most
responsible.
Ms. Salazar. And that is fantastic. Those people can then
cannot leave Venezuela and go to Disney World or go to Broadway
or enjoy the fruits of what they stole. I got it. But I am
talking about our oil companies. And not only ours, but you are
not answering my question. So I am going to go to the next one.
Fifty companies have applied for a Venezuelan oil license,
50. Shell from Netherlands, did you grant a license, yes or no,
to Shell?
Mr. Sullivan. I would refer you to OFAC and the Department
of Treasury with respect to decisions on individual----
Ms. Salazar. Treasury follows State. Did you advise
Treasury yes or no on Shell?
Mr. Sullivan. And the----
Ms. Salazar. I am going to make it easy for you. Shell
ONGC, Pradesh from Indian, Amas Global from the United States,
Kerui Petroleum from Chinese because the thing is that
everyone, every--the international communities is they don't
want to have a problem with the United States. They come to the
U.S. Government and says, hey, could I do business with
Venezuela? You will not be upset if I do, right? That is why we
have to grant licenses to other people who are not Americans.
So I am asking again, Chevron and the rest, 50 companies,
how many licenses have you granted? And the only reason why I
am doing this is because if you grant a license, Maduro has
money, and he can beat Maria Corina's supporters on the streets
and the rape the people in jail. You understand that, right?
Money means repression. No money means less repression.
Am I right? What am I saying--where am I wrong? Where do
you think I am wrong?
Mr. Sullivan. Chairwoman, in terms of specific license
applications, I really can't speak to individual decisions on
that. What I can tell you is----
Ms. Salazar. I am only asking you yes or no.
Mr. Sullivan. What I can tell you is that first of all we
do consider the revenue that is generated for Maduro as we
consider these decisions. We also consider other factors,
broader U.S. interests as well as where we stand in our broader
diplomatic efforts in addressing this problem.
Ms. Salazar. Sir, don't you understand that Maduro is
laughing at us, and we are the leaders. You said, one of you
gentleman you said we are trying to garner some international
support. We are the leaders. The United States is not at the
head. Brazil, Colombia, Peru, the rest are--you know this.
I don't have to--I am, you guys are career diplomats. You
are serving the country. You are trying to do your very best. I
am not saying--I am not passing any judgment. I am only passing
judgment on the decisions that the State Department has taken.
And I am asking you why. And you haven't answered.
Mr. Sullivan. You mentioned the diplomatic efforts that we
have been engaged in, and the U.S. has taken a leadership role
in a number of fora from the OAS----
Ms. Salazar. In a very weak manner, that's why Maduro is
going like that.
Mr. Sullivan. Well, I----
Ms. Salazar. We are granting licenses to these people. That
is the No. 1 tool we have. Do you agree with me?
Mr. Sullivan. We certainly agree that sanctions are an
important part of our toolkit and that is why we have used them
most recently on September 12, as I mentioned.
And we have certainly not ruled out additional actions
going forward, whether individual or broader sanctions. Those
are----
Ms. Salazar. So I am going to ask again and then--you are
not answering. And I understand your position we are in a
democracy. You are not telling me--you are not giving me any
information.
Is there any way that there is a conversation in Treasury
or in the State Department to make a decision--consider the
possibility of putting a pause on any of these licenses, yes or
no?
Mr. Sullivan. Yes, in the sense that we are----
Ms. Salazar. Oh.
Mr. Sullivan [continuing]. Always assessing how we can best
utilize our sanctions.
Ms. Salazar. Do you think that there is a movement within
the State Department, starting with Secretary Blinken, to put a
pause on any of these licenses and send the message to Maduro,
no, my money is--no more money is coming in.
Mr. Sullivan. So we are going to continue to consider the
whole range of sanctioning options that we have available based
on what we see from Maduro, how the situation develops as well
as what we think is going to be the most effective response.
Ms. Salazar. Sir, you are sending a very weak message to
Maduro. I am sure they are analyzing this hearing to the T.
Now next one, Gonzalez, why don't we don't recognize him as
the legitimate president of Venezuela, like the past
administration did with Guaido. Why don't we say, yes, Gonzalez
is the legitimate President of the country? Why don't we do
that?
Mr. Sullivan. There is absolutely no doubt that Edmundo
Gonzalez Urrutia won the most votes in the election. We have
said that clearly. Many other governments have also said that.
As my colleague mentioned, the Secretary of State has spoken
with Edmundo a number of times.
Ms. Salazar. Why don't we recognize him? We can talk to him
a thousand times, but we have got to say publicly, we, the
United States, we believe you are the legitimate President just
like we did with Guaido. Why don't we do the same thing with
Gonzalez?
Mr. Sullivan. So we have recognized that he won the
election. And we have called on the Maduro institutions to
release the tallies that show that he won the election as the
opposition has essentially already done in the case of the 80
percent of the polling stations.
We have also categorically rejected the efforts of the CNE
to certify Maduro as the President-elect of Venezuela as well
as the TSJ's efforts to ratify that certification. And in
addition----
Ms. Salazar. Very weak.
Mr. Sullivan. In addition to----
Ms. Salazar. We are very weak in the eyes of the Maduro
regime, and it is costing us in the rest of the hemisphere.
Mr. Roig, 4 million Venezuelans or Mr. Howell, if you want
to give me your opinion, 4 million Venezuelans will be knocking
on our door very soon. They have said it. The have announced it
if this money coming in continues. A thousand Venezuelans are
leaving every day.
What can we do about that because the border is--I mean, we
are allowing them because it is asylum, political asylum they
are asking. So how do you see, Mr. Roig or Mr. Howell?
Mr. Howell. Thank you, Chairwoman Salazar. USAID and the
U.S. Government is working very closely with countries across
the region, including Brazil, Colombia, and Ecuador, which have
made very bold policy commitments to welcome migrants into
their communities.
Ms. Salazar. They can't hold any more. It is 8 million
Venezuelans who fled. Most of them are in South America. Those
countries do not have the public services to provide to these
new migrants. So they are coming to the United States,
including Tren del Aragua, you know, because everything comes
in, unfortunately. So do we have any plans?
Mr. Howell. Yes, again, we are continuing to strengthen the
capacities of those governments, in particular Colombia,
Brazil, Peru, Ecuador. Our surveys have shown that migrants
from Venezuela prefer to migrate to those countries. And we
will continue to work with them to build their capacities both
at a national level and a municipal level to be able to welcome
migrants from Venezuelans but currently we are not seeing a
significant uptick in migration since the election, but
certainly it is a concern.
Ms. Salazar. Thank you. I now recognize Ranking Member
Castro for 5 minutes. And thank you for your patience.
Mr. Castro. I am going to allow Representative Stanton to
go first because he has got a plane to catch.
Mr. Stanton. Thank you very much, Ranking Member Castro and
Chair Salazar for your leadership in putting together this very
important hearing. Thank you to the brave voters, opposition
leaders, and election observers in Venezuelans for their belief
in democratic systems.
On July 28, Venezuelans turned out in impressive numbers to
vote for the return of democracy, economic opportunity, and
rule of law, and yet their votes were ignored.
Maduro still claims to have won, declaring without proof
that he won over 51 percent of the vote. Maduro's lackeys have
cracked down violently on protests, killing 24 people,
arresting almost 2,000 political prisoners. And opposition
candidate Edmundo Gonzalez has been forced into exile. And, of
course, Edmundo Gonzalez wasn't even supposed to be the
candidate. Maria Corina Machado overwhelmingly won the primary
elections, but was wrongfully removed from the ballot by the
Venezuelan Supreme Court.
Deputy Assistant Secretary Sullivan, the U.S. has
recognized Gonzalez's victory on August 1. Tell us how the
administration came to this conclusion?
Mr. Sullivan. Thanks for your question, Congressman
Stanton. As I mentioned earlier, we drew the conclusion that
Edmundo Gonzalez Urrutia had clearly won the most votes
primarily based on the opposition's release of the tally sheets
from over 80 percent of the voting tables and the judgments of
international election experts on the authenticity of those
returns.
Based on those returns, there was no mathematical way that
Nicolas Maduro could have won even if we had--if he had won
every outstanding vote remaining in the other 20 percent. It
really was an overwhelming election.
And at this stage, really, the whole world knows that
Nicolas Maduro lost that election. I think there is almost
unanimity of views on that. The Venezuelan people know that he
lost. The Venezuelan military knows that he lost. And all over
the international community, I think that fact has been
recognized.
I would note that also the results of the actual election
coincided very closely with credible polling prior to the
election as well as exit polling that was conducted on election
day. So there are just further indications of that.
So really it is remarkable that we are here now, that that
election happened, that the opposition was able to run in it,
that they were able to capture the results from that election
and present them in a credible way.
Our job now in the international community is to support
them as they seek to ensure that the will of the Venezuelan
people is respected and that the democratic transition that
Venezuelans overwhelmingly voted for actually happens.
Mr. Stanton. Unfortunately, Brazil, Colombia, Mexico have
remained neutral so far, mainly calling for proof of results
and suggesting a variety of solutions. Brazil's President Lula
suggested that Venezuelan hold new elections, and Colombia's
President Petro suggested that Maduro and Gonzalez form a
coalition government.
Deputy Assistant Secretary Sullivan, Brazil, Colombia, and
Mexico have tried to act as intermediaries between Maduro and
the opposition. Have there been any success in that regard? How
do you anticipate that President Elect Claudia Sheinbaum's
inauguration will change Mexico's focus on Venezuelan? She, of
course, will be inaugurated on October 1. Are there other
countries that are better positioned to act as intermediaries?
Mr. Sullivan. Thanks for the question, Congressman. We have
really been quite happy with the role that Brazil, Colombia,
and Mexico have been willing to play. In many cases those
leaders have had long relationships with Maduro and his
associates, but nonetheless, they have recognized that the way
that Maduro conducted the election and withheld the election
results really is just not democratic and not credible.
And they have, No. 1, called on Maduro to release those
results and to respect them and have indicated that they would
not acknowledge Maduro's election result until and unless he
did so. That is really quite an evolution from where those
governments might have been a few years ago.
And because of that, those longstanding relationships, we
have been hopeful that they could play a helpful role in
overall international efforts. We believe those efforts are
ongoing. We hope that Maduro will take counsel from those
leaders about transparency and respect for democratic norms. We
are also hopeful that the incoming Mexican President will also
maintain those standards.
We, of course, have engaged with a much broader range of
international partners, both in the region, in the Americas as
well in Europe and beyond. We have found enormous support for
respect for the democrat process in all of those places. So we
are hopeful that concerted international pressure will have a
positive effect and will continue to work with any countries
who can help promote a Venezuelan led dialog that can get us to
a peaceful democratic transition.
Mr. Stanton. Thank you very much. Thank you, Ranking
Member. Thank you for your professional courtesy.
Ms. Salazar. Thanks to you, Representative Stanton. Now we
are going to give the time to Representative Green from
Tennessee. Thank you.
Mr. Green. Thank you, Madam Chairman. The crisis in
Venezuela is tragic. Millions of citizens disenfranchised.
Nearly 2,000 are imprisoned, including children. Dozens have
been killed protesting the violation of their rights. All of
the government issues, this constant stream or lies and
propaganda, but it is really not new. It is all too familiar.
The methods of oppression we have seen in Venezuela in
recent weeks are textbook Cuban tactics for crushing dissent,
terrorizing people. And it is hardly surprising for those of us
who have been paying attention the expansive Cuban presence in
Venezuela answers a lot of questions about the nature and
intentions of the Maduro regime.
Back in 2021 under the Trump Administration, the State
Department reported, and I quote, ``The Cuban intelligence and
security apparatus has infiltrated Venezuela. The security and
military forces are assisting Nicolas Maduro to maintain his
stronghold over his people while allowing terrorist
organizations to operate freely.''
As Maria Corina Machado said in a recent interview, and
again I quote, ``We have known for a long time that Cuba has
had a terrible impact in multiple areas in methods of
repression, persecution, espionage, and torture.''
We have seen truly heartless things in recent days. But not
only are these tyrannical tactics similar, the U.S. response to
them is also strikingly familiar. Just as Democrats turned a
blind eye to the Cuban repression and the Biden-Harris
Administration relieves pressure on the Cuban government, so
too are we seeing the same thing happening with our diplomatic
relations with Venezuela despite the Trump Administration's
refusing to recognize the fraudulent Maduro regime in 2019
along with the EU and 14 other countries in the Western
Hemisphere, the Biden and Harris Administration decided to
change course and bring the Maduro regime back into the fold
from releasing a criminal and high ranking Maduro ally to
providing sanctions relief leading up to the stolen election,
this administration paved the road on which Venezuelans and
their rights were trampled by Nicolas Maduro.
Evil flourishes in the absence of strength given the abject
failure of this administration to maintain strength and
diplomacy with both Cuba and Venezuela my question is this.
What is the administration planning to do or say about the
maligned Cuban influence in Venezuela that is helping Maduro in
his refusal to accept the will of the Venezuelan people and
terrorize those demanding respect for their vote? And I will go
with you, Ambassador Sullivan.
Mr. Sullivan. Thank you, Congressman. I would say that
certainly, we have all been horrified by the increasing
repression we have seen in Venezuela, particularly since the
electoral result. My colleagues have detailed some of the
really disturbing aspects of that, including the targeting of
minors in some cases. And these----
Mr. Green. Yes, you don't have to go back over the horrible
things that have happened to consume time. Just tell me--first
let me just ask this. Is Maduro being helped by Cuba to stay in
power?
Mr. Sullivan. Yes.
Mr. Green. OK. So what are we doing about that?
Mr. Sullivan. So you mentioned some of the reports and
assessments that the U.S. Government has done in the past on
the Cuban involvement in Venezuela. We have not seen recent
specific information on that in terms of their involvement in
recent days, but it is something that we are continuing to
monitor and can address when we have a clear----
Mr. Green. You are avoiding the question or the answer to
the question. I mean, you are doing more research. Got it. You
are digging more in to figure out their degree of involvement.
Mr. Sullivan. I would be happy to----
Mr. Green. What are we doing to stop it?
Mr. Sullivan. I will be happy to take your question back,
and we will provide you with additional information.
Mr. Green. OK. How has--again, to you, and I think your
title isn't--it is Deputy Secretary, right?
Mr. Sullivan. Deputy Assistant Secretary.
Mr. Green. Deputy Assistant Secretary, my apologies for
that. How has the Maduro regime, you know, cracked down on
corruption and all of this, pushed immigration into the United
States?
Mr. Sullivan. Well, Maduro's misrule over the last several
years has resulted in the outflow of over 7 million
Venezuelans. Some of them have left for--because of direct
political repression others because of the economic failures of
Maduro. In any case, they are all really related to the way
Maduro has run Venezuela over the last several years.
We have seen over the last couple of years in particular a
heightened outflow. My colleague, Greg Howell, talked about
some of the efforts we have undertaken with others in the
region to help the whole region cope with the impact of those
outflows.
Mr. Green. Do you know how many people have come across
from Venezuela, flown from Venezuela to the United States as
part of this program that the DHS Secretary has put together to
just bring people from rogue regimes into the United States?
Can you get me that number if you don't have that number?
Mr. Sullivan. I can take your question back about the
number of Venezuelans who have participated in what I think you
are referring to the increased lawful pathways that----
Mr. Green. It wasn't lawful. Even the administration
admitted that that new program violated laws. So the flights
that I am talking about into the interior of the United States
from Venezuela I would like the number from what State thinks
it is. And if you can get that to me in writing later.
Mr. Sullivan. Okay. We will take that question back.
Thanks.
Mr. Green. I yield.
Ms. Salazar. Thank you, Representative Green. I recognize
Ranking Member Castro from Texas.
Mr. Castro. Thank you, Chairwoman. A few things first, I
don't envy your work. We participated also in determining when
sanctions are appropriate and how narrow, how broad those
sanctions should be, which individuals to sanction or which
sectors to sanction.
It really is walking a tightrope. You know, I have
supported Venezuelan sanctions in the past. And I am willing to
look at more sanctions.
Ms. Salazar. Thank you.
Mr. Castro. I am. But I think we also have to recognize
that how you set those sanctions, you have got to set them in a
way that puts enough pressure on a government to do the right
thing, in this case to hold free and fair elections and
recognize a legitimate election result and at the same time it
doesn't devaState an economy so much that I affects people well
beyond those in the elite of government, and it forces mass
migration.
Look, I agree with the chairwoman that I think there are a
lot of Venezuelans who have said and who will leave if Maduro
is there for another two, three, 4 years, whatever it may be,
but there will also be a lot of people who will leave if there
are sanctions that are put on so harshly that you essentially
starve the country, and people have no choice but to go.
Also on the situation with recognizing Edmundo Gonzalez, it
is a double-edged sword because, you know, I believe he won the
election. I said that clearly. At the same time, the imprimatur
of the United States carries with it a lot of positives and a
lot of strengths, but we have seen historically how it also can
play into the hands of dictators because we become their foil
to curry favor with what is for them the home team, in this
case Venezuelans, and the United States is that big evil empire
who is trying to harm us as a country.
And so they have successfully, some of them, played this
insider/outside game where these outside folks are trying to
tell us who is going to be President and how our country I is
going to run. So that is why I say it is a tough mix of how you
do that. And thank you all for your work and for doing it
diligently and thoughtfully.
I have a few questions really quick. The first one, you
know, since July 28, a key priority of the United States and
many of the other countries in the region has been to push the
Maduro regime to enter into negotiations with the opposition
regarding a democratic transition in line with the results of
the election.
The Maduro regime has broken ties with a number of
countries that recognize Edmundo Gonzalez's victory and has
diplomatically isolated itself. This has left few avenues to
engage with the regime to push it to enter into those
negotiations.
One such avenue was the Brazil, Colombia, Mexico efforts by
Presidents Lula, Petro, and Amlo. Another early channel seems
to be Qatar. Both seemed to be dormant at the moment. So I
wanted to ask you, Mr. Sullivan, how do you assess the outcomes
from these channels, and are there any partners still actively
engaging with the regime to push them to enter into
negotiation?
Mr. Sullivan. Thank you, Ranking Member Castro. Yes, there
are international partners that remain actively engaged with
Maduro. As you have pointed out, it has been very difficult.
Maduro and his representatives have really been focused
much more on repression and denial since the election. And
that's hard for anyone to deal with, whether it is the United
States or Brazil. But we have remained in contact with the
countries you mentioned, Brazil, Colombia, and Mexico. Qatar as
well and, of course, many of our other partners around the
Americas and Europe.
There are really a number of countries that are prepared to
be helpful, you know each one coming from where they are with
the relationships that they have. But, and I should point out,
that the United States also remains very open to engagement to
try and promote the kind of negotiated peaceful democratic
transition that Venezuelans clearly want. But it does take two
to tango. And unfortunately, I think none of our partners have
perceived real openness or any flexibility so far from Maduro.
But I would go back to your opening statement, Ranking
Member Castro. And when you talked about this being the biggest
opportunity that we have had for a long time in Venezuela, we
continue to believe that's the case. And we also would agree
with the idea that there is lot that can happen between an
election and an inauguration. And that is certainly the way we
are looking at the situation now.
Mr. Castro. Thank you for that. And also the last couple of
days, news reports and assertions by the Maduro regime allege
that the Spanish government had an active role in Edmundo
Gonzalez signing a document recognizing Maduro's electoral
victory. Edmundo Gonzalez says he was forced to sign it, has
denied the Spanish government was complicit, and the Spanish
government also denies any involvement.
And so I wanted to ask you what is your assessment of the
situation and were there external factors coercing Edmundo
Gonzalez to sign that document?
Mr. Sullivan. Ranking Member Castro, I think Edmundo
Gonzalez Urrutia himself has been very clear about what
happened. He was coerced by Maduro and some of his
representatives into leaving the country after he had been
falsely accused of a number of serious crimes and arrest
warrants had been issued for him. And that is really the
essence of the situation.
The Spanish government facilitated his departure to Spain
where fortunately he is safe and out of the reach of Maduro. I
would refer you to some of the Spanish government's own
statements about what role they played. They helped him find
safe haven essentially.
But in terms of coercion and manipulation, I think there we
are talking about Maduro and his representatives.
Mr. Castro. The Spanish government is more on the left,
right?
Mr. Sullivan. Yes, that's true. But I think the Spanish
government along with really the rest of the European Union has
consistently advocated for transparency in this election,
respect for democratic norms. The European Union has put out a
number of very strong statements, including some involving all
27 members, and I understand that the government of Spain fully
shares those sentiments.
Mr. Castro. And I say that or I ask that question because I
mean to say it is not like it is a right wing government that
is attacking Maduro or, you know, implying this process was
unfair because they ideologically disagree with Maduro.
Mr. Sullivan. Right.
Mr. Castro. And the point I meant to make also with Edmundo
Gonzalez is the version of what we tried with Guaido we
essentially, I mean, I would argue, Chairwoman, and we can
debate it and stuff, but like I would argue that we tried that
with Guaido, the recognition, and it fell apart.
And, you know, you know what I have said on Cuba, and we
kind of see things a little differently, but I don't wish for
us to have a similar relationship with another Latin American
country the way we had with Cuba since Castro came into power,
which was total isolation. We basically tried to shut him out,
I mean, isolate him. We have isolated him.
And, you know, the Castros are gone, but it is still the
same government. They are driving cars from the 1950's. Nothing
has changed. You still have a lot of poverty. And it is just
kind of in a stale relationship. That doesn't mean that you
just give them whatever they want and, hey, you know,
everything is cool. But I do think it is a warning about
sometimes the limits of an approach and how you have to assess
along the way what you are doing and what the appropriate
actions are.
And, again, I have supported sanctions on Venezuela. I have
supported sanctions on other countries. I don't have a problem
supporting--on Russia, I don't have a problem imposing
sanctions on nations where it is appropriate.
But I have learned in my 12 years here and all of those
here on this committee, that there may not be a perfect answer,
but, man, you got to do it. It has got to be calibrated and
done the right way. Otherwise, you know, if it goes one way or
the other, you know, too much, not enough or too far, the
result is going to be bad.
So thank you. I yield back, Chairwoman.
Ms. Salazar. Thank you, Ranking Member. I now recognize for
5 minutes Representative Self from the State of Texas.
Mr. Self. Thank you, Chairwoman. This committee has done a
very good job. Rather than replow old ground, I want to review,
first of all, the panel that we have in front of us. And this
has a purpose.
Mr. Sullivan, in your resume it says you are a strong
advocate for democracy and human rights. Mr. Roig, you work for
the Bureau of Democracy, Human Rights and Labor. Mr. Sullivan,
you have said respect for the will of the Venezuelan people
twice, I think. Mr. Roig, you had said they are checking the
Snapchat of citizens, stopping and checking the Snapchat.
Mr. Howell you said support democratic actors around the
world. I think I got that right.
So I have a rare opportunity here because in your
portfolio, Deputy Assistant Secretary Howell, you have Brazil.
So along these lines, I want to--obviously, Brazil has been in
the news recently because they have frozen access to X in their
country, millions of Brazilians use that service.
And Brazil, just to remind everyone here, has a larger GDP
than Mexico. It has triple of the GDP of the No. 2 country in
South America. So we are talking about a significant country in
South America.
Since it is in your portfolio, Deputy Assistant Secretary,
you know that the Brazilian judge seized cash from Starlink
relating to acts, of course, to pay their fines. Now the
American government I think, along the lines that I just laid
out from your three gentlemen ought to be taking steps to
ensure that our companies, especially those dedicated to free
speech in a regional democracy, are not be harassed by these
nations.
And I wish the Biden Administration was as aggressive on
Brazil in this case as you seem to indicate you are going to
be, you might be, on Venezuela.
So first question for you, Mr. Howell, is what is the
administration doing, actually doing, not studying, not
playing, what are you doing to combat the steps that Brazil has
taken to censor their citizens?
Mr. Sullivan. So, Congressman, so you are looking at me,
Deputy Assistant Secretary Sullivan. You said Howell?
Mr. Self. I am sorry, I did, Deputy Assistant Secretary
Sullivan. I apologize, Mr.--who should I apologize to?
Mr. Sullivan. No, one, sir, just clarifying.
Mr. Self. Just clarifying, I am looking at you, Deputy
Assistant Secretary Sullivan. Thank you.
Mr. Sullivan. Well, I will be happy to address your
question, and I know my colleague, DAS Roig, has also been
tracking the Brazil X issue quite carefully from a freedom of
expression perspective.
But I will just say that we, of course, have been paying
close attention to the situation.
Mr. Self. But I asked what are you doing?
Mr. Sullivan. So we have been in touch with the company.
And we are--and we have also expressed publicly our ongoing
commitment to freedom of expression issues broadly. We have not
commented on the specific legal matters because that is not
something that we typically do in a case like Brazil.
Mr. Self. OK. Very good. The Department of State gives $160
million a year to something called CEPPS. For those of you who
are not familiar with it, it is a Consortium for Elections and
Political Process Strengthening, CEPPS.
Now, apparently, they got $20 million from the Department
of State specifically for Brazil-related work in 2021, which
was prior to the last Presidential election in Brazil.
I want to know specifically what was the purpose of those
funds because, just for information again, CEPPS includes such
suborganizations as Countering Disinformation Project,
Countering Disinformation Guide, a data base of informational
interventions. And here we have this country, CEPPS, with State
Department money with these organizations. What did they use
those $20 million for specifically in Brazil?
Mr. Sullivan. Congressman, in this case, I would invite
either of my colleagues to indicate whether they are aware of
that CEPPS grant. We do similar grants sometimes through DRL
and sometimes through USAID.
Mr. Self. I am about to run out of time so I am going to
submit that for a response.
Mr. Sullivan. We will be happy to get back to you on that.
Mr. Self. And if I may, Chairwoman, one more point. I will
also be asking you about the two war ships that Brazil's
President gave material support to recently. And the Macron is
the one I am most concerned about.
I has been renovated into a sea base to include the
possibility of Iranian special forces deploying around the
world, in this case in Brazil. I am very concerned about that.
I will be submitting that question for a response as well.
Madam Chair, I yield back.
Ms. Salazar. Thank you, Representative Self. Now I
recognize for 5 minutes Representative Kamlager-Dove from the
State of California.
Ms. Kamlager-Dove. Thank you, Madam Chair. Thank you for
hosting this hearing. And I hope that we can have one similar
to this on the issue of Haiti given the turmoil that is going
on in that country and the fact that Haitians are under siege
here and abroad.
The elections in Venezuela were one of the most impressive
exercises of democratic participation that I have seen since
joining this committee. In the face of incredible repression
and intimidation, the people of Venezuela came out in full
force to deliver a resounding verdict against Maduro's
authoritarianism.
And I want to point out that after 6 years of political
stagnation and a worsening humanitarian crisis in Venezuela, it
was diplomacy that created an opportunity for Venezuelans to
make their voices and to have agency in their country's future.
I also want to say it was diplomacy that brought home 10
Americans, including one of my constituents. And talking points
are just that until it is somebody's child. And I prayed
regularly with my constituent's father to have him come home.
So if there is going to be an alternative outcome for
Venezuela it is going to have to include intensive diplomacy in
concert with our regional partners.
Deputy Assistant Secretary Sullivan, there has been a lot
of discussion about sticks. What are the carrots that are on
the table, and is the United States prepared to consider
sanctions, relief, or lifting of indictments or other forms of
support for officials, for officials, who have exercised
courage and have respected the outcome of Venezuela's
elections?
Mr. Sullivan. Thanks very much for your question,
Congresswoman. And I really appreciate your highlighting the
important role that diplomacy played in helping us get to
competitive elections in Venezuela as well as releasing the
wrongfully detained Americans last year. We were all very happy
to be part of that.
In terms of sanctions relief and carrots in general in this
situation, we have indicated that we are prepared to look at
sanctions relief of all kinds if the Venezuelan democratic
process proceeds if the will of the people is respected. I
think that is clear.
In terms of our individual sanctions, really, they are
always put in place as an incentive for individuals to change
their behavior in a positive way. We are in a position to
review sanctions in the case that individuals, instead of
disrupting democratic processes or conducting repression
actually contribute to a positive outcome, absolutely.
I would also highlight that in terms of carrots, really
what all of us are looking for is a peaceful democratic
transition and as President--as Edmundo Gonzalez, the winner of
the Presidential election has said, national reconciliation.
I think he has talked, along with Maria Corina Machado,
about building a Venezuela for all Venezuelans, that all
Venezuelans--where they can feel comfortable, where they can go
on with their lives, and where people can leave behind the
terrible crisis and strife that have gripped the country for
years now.
And really in our view, most of the carrots that would be
involved in a transition really have to come through
Venezuelans led negotiations that we, as the U.S. Government,
can support. But there are, of course, a number of issues and
angles that the U.S. Government does control, and we are happy
to put our influence at the service of that kind of national
reconciliation.
Ms. Kamlager-Dove. Thank you. So DAS Roig, I think the fact
that Brazil has allowed Argentina to operate under its flag is
a really big deal.
We know that Maduro has taken unprecedented steps to
intimidate other countries, including breaking off diplomatic
relations with Argentina for sheltering six Venezuelan
opposition members and then revoking Brazil's authority to
represent Argentina's interest.
I think this is a violation of the Vienna Convention. So
what is your assessment on the kind of cooperation that these
countries can expect from Maduro? Will it be the same as it has
in the past?
Mr. Roig. Congresswoman, thank you for the question. I mean
here, what I would say is that both Argentina and Brazil have
stated their positions clearly. We have expressed our
unwavering support for both the governments of Brazil and
Argentina in the face of threats to the embassy of Argentina in
Venezuela as we have also called for the immediate and
unconditional release of those unjustly detained, and for the
safe conduct to allow for the secure departure of Venezuelan
opposition leaders from the Argentine embassy.
That has been our clear position on the issue with regards
to what is happening with the embassy.
Ms. Kamlager-Dove. Thank you. I am out of time. I will
submit my last question to have you all respond. And I just
want to thank the chair for giving me flexibility with these
extra seconds.
And I would like to use your Chevron charts in my Natural
Resources Committee. I am putting that on the record. I would
love it.
Ms. Salazar. Thanks to you, the Representative from
California. And now I recognize Mr. Castro for any closing
remarks he may have.
Mr. Castro. Thank you, Chairwoman. As you all know, we only
have a few session weeks left in the year. And I know how busy
November and December in an election year can get. And so I
don't know if the subcommittee will hold more hearings during
that period. I certainly hope we do, but in the case that we
don't, I want to take this opportunity to thank the chairwoman
for her leadership and the members of the subcommittee for
their work, and particularly Greg Stanton, Sydney Kamlager-
Dove, and Jared Moskowitz.
I also want to thank the committee staff for their work in
keeping the work of this subcommittee going. As you all know,
anybody that has worked on Capitol Hill knows that the staff
are the real drivers of a lot of the work that we do. And that
includes Sid Ravishankar, Jaya Khetarpal, Rodrigo Garza,
Russell Brooks, Radhika Prabhu, Zakiya Carr Johnson with the
democratic staff.
And also with the Republicans, Ricardo Pita, Maggie
Goessler, Christy Kortokrax, Jacob DePeralta, and Ana Quintana,
all with the Republican staff.
Also on the chairwoman's staff, John Mark Cole and Austin
Johnson. And thank you all so much for your work and the issues
that we have discussed, the debate, you can tell the debate has
been lively these 2 years, but I think it has been important
that we have covered these issues. Thank you.
I yield back, Chairwoman.
Ms. Salazar. Thanks to you, and I agree with the whole
staff for this wonderful committee, Dems and Republicans
working together, and it is a delight to be working with you,
Ranking Member Castro.
And I now recognize myself for any closing remarks. I
wanted to thank all of you for being here. As I said at the
beginning, this is not a partisan issue. This is an issue that
is of high regard and extremely important for Democrats and for
Republicans because we all want democracy, freedom, free market
economy, and have a prosperous hemisphere.
Before I mention or I express my closing remarks, I have
one more question, which I just would like you to confirm,
Ambassador Sullivan. We have reports that between October 2023
and May 2024, Maduro's coffers received between $1.1 and $1.5
billion because of the sanctions allowed by the U.S.
Government.
Could you confirm that figure?
Mr. Sullivan. Chairwoman, thanks for the question. We can't
confirm a particular figure. There have been a variety of
estimates of the revenues that Maduro has received. There is
some commercially available. But I can't confirm any particular
number today.
Ms. Salazar. Could you share the numbers that you feel
comfortable with because you need to--I am sure you have
tallies of how much the Maduro regime is receiving because of
our concessions.
Mr. Sullivan. I will take that question back.
Ms. Salazar. So if you can next week, we would like to see
if we can gather that information from the State of Department
if that is possible.
Mr. Sullivan. Sure. We will get back to you.
Ms. Salazar. My closing remarks are extremely sad. I am
very worried the Biden Administration has not done what it
committed to, which was to follow the Barbados Accords. If
Maduro followed what was agreed on and committed to, which was
to respect the results of free and fair elections in Venezuela
on July 28, it was very clear that we were going to lift the
sanctions, but if he did not, then the sanctions were going to
be reimposed. And that did not happen. And that is highly
disappointing, very disappointing.
The Democrats unfortunately, and you know I am one of the
most bipartisan members of the U.S. Congress, the Biden-Harris
Administration have not been present, and they have not helped
the millions of Venezuelans who voted against the Maduro
regime.
And there was an agreement, the Barbados Accords. And we,
the United States, did follow it. And that is highly
disappointing because I would have wanted the Biden-Harris
Administration to step up to the plate and help Maria Corina
Machado. I would have been the first one saying bravo, Mr.
President. But he did not.
So if Maria Corina Machado goes to jail, it is clearly on
the Biden Administration. and I want to leave that on the
record because Edmundo Gonzalez left, she is the last man
standing. Do you agree with me?
Mr. Sullivan. Yes, Chairwoman, we have great respect for
the incredible bravery and work of Maria Corina Machado. We are
very closely tracking her welfare and will continue to do so as
this situation unfolds. We remain in close contact with her.
Ms. Salazar. Thank you. I thank the witnesses for their
valuable testimony and the member for their questions. The
members of the subcommittee may have some additional questions
for the witnesses. And we will ask you to respond to those
questions in writing.
Pursuant to committee rules, all members may have 5 days to
submit statements, questions, and extraneous materials for the
record subject to the length limitations.
Without objection, the committee stands adjourned, and
thanks again for being here.
[Whereupon, at 12:59 p.m., the subcommittee was adjourned.]
APPENDIX
----------
Material Submitted for the Hearing Record
[GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
[all]