[House Hearing, 118 Congress]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]
GIVEN THE GREEN LIGHT: OPEN-BORDER
POLICIES AND THREATS TO LAW ENFORCEMENT
=======================================================================
HEARING
before the
SUBCOMMITTEE ON
EMERGENCY MANAGEMENT AND
TECHNOLOGY
of the
COMMITTEE ON HOMELAND SECURITY
HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
ONE HUNDRED EIGHTEENTH CONGRESS
SECOND SESSION
__________
DECEMBER 10, 2024
__________
Serial No. 118-85
__________
Printed for the use of the Committee on Homeland Security
[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Available via the World Wide Web: http://www.govinfo.gov/
__________
U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE
60-303 PDF WASHINGTON : 2025
COMMITTEE ON HOMELAND SECURITY
Mark E. Green, MD, Tennessee, Chairman
Michael T. McCaul, Texas Bennie G. Thompson, Mississippi,
Clay Higgins, Louisiana Ranking Member
Michael Guest, Mississippi Eric Swalwell, California
Dan Bishop, North Carolina J. Luis Correa, California
Carlos A. Gimenez, Florida Troy A. Carter, Louisiana
August Pfluger, Texas Shri Thanedar, Michigan
Andrew R. Garbarino, New York Seth Magaziner, Rhode Island
Marjorie Taylor Greene, Georgia Glenn Ivey, Maryland
Tony Gonzales, Texas Daniel S. Goldman, New York
Nick LaLota, New York Robert Garcia, California
Mike Ezell, Mississippi Delia C. Ramirez, Illinois
Anthony D'Esposito, New York Robert Menendez, New Jersey
Laurel M. Lee, Florida Thomas R. Suozzi, New York
Morgan Luttrell, Texas Timothy M. Kennedy, New York
Dale W. Strong, Alabama LaMonica McIver, New Jersey
Josh Brecheen, Oklahoma Yvette D. Clarke, New York
Elijah Crane, Arizona
Stephen Siao, Staff Director
Hope Goins, Minority Staff Director
Sean Corcoran, Chief Clerk
------
SUBCOMMITTEE ON EMERGENCY MANAGEMENT AND TECHNOLOGY
Anthony D'Esposito, New York, Chairman
Nick LaLota, New York Troy A. Carter, Louisiana, Ranking
Dale W. Strong, Alabama Member
Josh Brecheen, Oklahoma Daniel S. Goldman, New York
Mark E. Green, MD, Tennessee (ex Timothy M. Kennedy, New York
officio) Bennie G. Thompson, Mississippi
(ex officio)
Diana Bergwin, Subcommittee Staff Director
Lauren McClain, Minority Subcommittee Staff Director
C O N T E N T S
----------
Page
Statements
The Honorable Anthony D'Esposito, a Representative in Congress
From the State of New York, and Chairman, Subcommittee on
Emergency Management and Technology:
Oral Statement................................................. 1
Prepared Statement............................................. 3
The Honorable Troy A. Carter, a Representative in Congress From
the State of Louisiana, and Ranking Member, Subcommittee on
Emergency Management and Technology:
Oral Statement................................................. 4
Prepared Statement............................................. 6
The Honorable Bennie G. Thompson, a Representative in Congress
From the State of Mississippi, and Ranking Member, Committee on
Homeland Security:
Prepared Statement............................................. 8
Witnesses
Mr. Jonathan F. Thompson, Executive Director and CEO, National
Sheriffs' Association:
Oral Statement................................................. 9
Prepared Statement............................................. 11
Mr. Patrick J. Ryder, Commissioner, Nassau County Police
Department, State of New York:
Oral Statement................................................. 13
Prepared Statement............................................. 15
Mr. Michael L. Chapman, Sheriff of Loudoun County, State of
Virginia, On Behalf of the Major County Sheriffs of America:
Oral Statement................................................. 17
Prepared Statement............................................. 19
Mr. David J. Bier, Private Citizen:
Oral Statement................................................. 20
Prepared Statement............................................. 22
GIVEN THE GREEN LIGHT: OPEN-BORDER
POLICIES AND THREATS TO LAW ENFORCE-
MENT
----------
Tuesday, December 10, 2024
U.S. House of Representatives,
Committee on Homeland Security,
Subcommittee on Emergency Management
and Technology,
Washington, DC.
The subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 10:12 a.m., in
room 310, Cannon House Office Building, Hon. Anthony D'Esposito
(Chairman of the subcommittee) presiding.
Present: Representatives D'Esposito, LaLota, Strong,
Carter, Goldman, and Kennedy.
Also present: Representative Correa.
Mr. D'Esposito. The Committee on Homeland Security
Subcommittee on Emergency Management and Technology will come
to order.
Without objection, the Chair may declare the subcommittee
in recess at any point.
The purpose of this hearing is to examine the impact of
open-border policies to the law enforcement community and how
transnational criminal organizations are taking advantage of
the Biden-Harris administration's lack of border control.
Without objection, the gentleman from California, Mr.
Correa, may sit with the subcommittee and question today's
witnesses.
With that, I recognize myself for an opening statement.
Today, the Subcommittee on Emergency Management and
Technology will examine how President Biden's open-border
policies have threatened and endangered law enforcement
officers across this great Nation.
Before we begin, I want to thank our witnesses for coming
to testify about the threats you and your communities have
faced. As a retired NYPD detective, I know you have a difficult
job, and we are all grateful for your strong commitment to
keeping Americans safe no matter the threats posed against your
own personal safety. We commend you for your bravery and
service to this great country, and we look forward to hearing
your testimony on how Congress can better support you.
Second, I want to share that it's been an honor to serve as
Chairman of this subcommittee. I have enjoyed working with my
fellow members, staff, and with Ranking Member Carter
throughout the last 2 years.
Together, we investigated several challenges posed against
this great Nation's homeland and evaluated the best approaches
for moving forward. From grappling with the consequences of
open-border policies on public safety to assessing fire safety,
evolving technology, and our national preparedness, we have
worked hard to shine a light on the issues impacting Americans
across the country and to improve our everyday lives.
While much remains uncertain, I know that our best days are
ahead. I will keep serving this great Nation and the people of
New York's Fourth Congressional District to make it a safe
place that we all love.
In this subcommittee's previous hearings, we have heard
reports of how Americans across this country have endured the
devastating consequences of President Biden's open-border
policies.
We learned that transnational criminal organizations, such
as Tren de Aragua and MS-13, are empowered by the United
States' failure to secure the Southwest Border and enforce
existing immigration laws. Trans-criminal organizations have
exploited the chaos at the border and have set up extensive
human smuggling operations, drug distribution networks, and
human trafficking pipelines.
Even in the last few months, it has become abundantly clear
that criminals are not only benefiting from the Democrats'
failure to maintain law and order, but they're also being
emboldened by it.
For instance, earlier this summer, Immigration and Customs
Enforcement Homeland Security Investigations warned local law
enforcement across the country that a Venezuelan gang gave its
members a ``green light'' to attack and fire upon U.S. law
enforcement.
The Venezuelan criminal organization has been deemed ``MS-
13 on steroids,'' establishing drug trafficking, migrant
smuggling, human trafficking, and extortion networks throughout
the United States of America.
While the gang originally formed in Venezuelan prison, it
has expanded throughout Latin America and the United States,
congregating particularly in Texas, Colorado, and my home State
of New York.
Earlier this year, 2 New York City police officers were
assaulted by a migrant shelter near Times Square. One police
officer was repeatedly kicked in the head while both of them
were surrounded by 13 other people. Shortly after, Manhattan
District Attorney Alvin Bragg released the suspects without
bail, a sickening move that was even criticized by Governor
Hochul.
Tren de Aragua's green light to attack United States law
enforcement is particularly concerning considering last year,
assaults against American law enforcement officers reached a
10-year high. Not only that, but our Nation's law enforcement
agencies have become strained and overwhelmed due to increasing
9-1-1 calls and other demands related to the influx of
migrants.
Instead of supporting suspected criminals endangering our
Nation's police officers, we should be securing the Southwest
Border, enforcing our Nation's laws, and making our police
officers' job easier, not more difficult.
In an article by The Wall Street Journal, Joseph Kenny, the
chief of detectives for the New York City Police Department,
recently said that the Venezuelan gang brought ``a wave of
crime'' that New York City ``has never seen before.'' From
shooting at 2 NYPD police officers who were at a traffic stop,
to retail theft, to moped robberies and more, Tren de Aragua
has overwhelmed the NYPD and surrounding communities.
I'm concerned about incentives for Venezuelan criminals to
take up shop in communities throughout the United States of
America. We know nothing about their criminal history, and they
have gained a foothold in the United States because of the
Biden administration's and local sanctuary city policies.
As Members of this committee, we need to prioritize the
safety of those who put their lives on the line for ours.
Thank you again to our witnesses for your courage and your
service despite the challenges you've faced. Again, I always
have the back of law enforcement agencies throughout every
corner of this country.
I'd now like to recognize the Ranking Member of the
subcommittee for his opening statement.
[The statement of Chairman D'Esposito follows:]
Statement of Chairman Anthony D'Esposito
December 10, 2024
The Committee on Homeland Security Subcommittee on Emergency
Management and Technology will come to order. Without objection, the
Chair may declare the subcommittee in recess at any point.
The purpose of this hearing is to examine the impact of open-border
policies to the law enforcement community and how transnational
criminal organizations are taking advantage of the Biden-Harris
administration's lack of border control.
I recognize myself for an opening statement.
Today, the Subcommittee on Emergency Management and Technology will
examine how President Biden's open border policies have threatened and
endangered law enforcement officers across the Nation. Before we begin,
I want to thank our witnesses for coming to testify about the threats
you and your communities have faced. As a retired NYPD Detective, I
know you have a difficult job, and we are grateful for your strong
commitment to keeping Americans safe no matter the threats posed
against your own personal safety.
We commend you for your bravery and service to this great country,
and we look forward to hearing your testimony and how Congress can
better support you.
Second, I want to share that it has been an honor to serve as
Chairman of this subcommittee. I have enjoyed working with my fellow
Members, staff, and with Ranking Member Carter throughout the last 2
years. Together, we investigated several challenges posed against our
Nation's homeland security and evaluated the best approaches for moving
forward.
From grappling with the consequences of open border policies on
public safety, to assessing fire safety, evolving technologies, and our
national preparedness, we have worked hard to shine a light on the
issues impacting Americans across the country and to improve our day-
to-day lives. While much remains uncertain, I know that our best days
are ahead, and I will keep serving this great Nation and the people of
New York's 4th Congressional District to make it a safe place for those
we love.
In this subcommittee's previous hearings, we have heard reports of
how Americans across the country have endured the devastating
consequences of President Biden's open border policies. We learned that
transnational criminal organizations (TCOs), such as Tren de Aragua and
MS-13, are empowered by the United States' failure to secure the
Southwest Border and enforce existing immigration laws. TCOs have
exploited the chaos at the border and have set up extensive human
smuggling operations, drug distribution networks, and human trafficking
pipelines.
Even in the last few months, it has become abundantly clear that
criminals are not only benefiting from the Democrats' failure to
maintain law and order, but they're also being emboldened by it.
For instance, earlier this summer, Immigration and Customs
Enforcement's (ICE) Homeland Security Investigations (HSI) warned local
law enforcement across the country that a Venezuelan gang called Tren
de Aragua, or TdA, gave its members a ``green light'' to attack and
fire upon U.S. law enforcement.
The Venezuelan criminal organization has been deemed ``MS-13 on
steroids,'' establishing drug trafficking, migrant smuggling, human
trafficking, and extortion networks throughout the Nation.
While the gang originally formed in a Venezuelan prison, it has
since expanded throughout Latin America and the United States,
congregating particularly in Texas, Colorado, and my home State of New
York.
Earlier this year, 2 New York City police officers were assaulted
by a migrant shelter near Times Square.
One police officer was repeatedly kicked in the head while both of
them were surrounded by 13 other people. Shortly after, Manhattan
District Attorney Alvin Bragg released the suspects without bail. A
sickening move that was even criticized by Governor Kathy Hochul.
TdA's ``green light'' to attack U.S. law enforcement is
particularly concerning considering that, last year, assaults against
American law enforcement officers reached a 10-year high. Not only
that, but our Nation's law enforcement agencies have become strained
and overwhelmed due to increasing 9-1-1 calls and other demands related
to the influx of migrants.
Instead of supporting suspected criminals and endangering our
Nation's police officers, we should be securing the Southwest Border,
enforcing our Nation's laws, and making our police officers' job
easier, not more difficult.
In an article by the Wall Street Journal, Joseph Kenny, chief of
detectives for the New York City Police Department (NYPD), recently
said that the Venezuelan gang brought ``a wave of crime'' that New York
City ``had never seen before.'' From shooting at 2 NYPD police officers
who were at a traffic stop, to retail theft, and moped robberies, Tren
de Aragua has overwhelmed the NYPD. I'm concerned about incentives for
Venezuelan criminals to take up shop in the United States. We know
nothing about their criminal history and TdA has gained a foothold in
the United States because of the Biden administration and local
sanctuary city policies.
As Members of this committee, we need to prioritize the safety of
those who put their lives on the line for ours.
Thank you again to our witnesses for your courage and your service
despite the challenges you've faced. As a retired NYPD detective, I
will always have our police officers' back.
It has been a privilege to serve in Congress and to shine a light
on these issues, and I look forward to learning more about how we can
better support our Nation's law enforcement officers moving forward.
I now recognize the Ranking Member of the subcommittee for his
opening statement.
Mr. Carter. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Good morning, and I'd
like to thank our witnesses for being here today.
This is not our first hearing that we've held about
conditions on the Southern Border, or the second, or even the
third. The Committee on Homeland Security has held 23 prior
hearings this Congress on the Southern Border. Yet not a single
hearing has resulted in any meaningful solutions from my
Republican colleagues.
When they had the chance to do real work by considering a
bipartisan border deal negotiated in the Senate, my Republican
colleagues rejected it and yielded to the demands of President-
elect Donald Trump, sabotaging a solution in favor of
maintaining a political talking point.
This bill, described as the ``toughest bill in
generations''--this was a common-sense border security bill
that would have strengthened our defenses, included new
Presidential emergency authority to shut down the border when
necessary, and provided much-needed personnel and resources to
communities. But Trump said no.
Now Trump is returning to the Presidency, and we are seeing
a resurgence of his partisan agenda taking precedence over
meaningful solutions. ``Project 2025,'' drafted in part by
Trump's new border czar, Thomas Homan, underscores the
Republican strategy of chaos and dysfunction. This initiative
aims to drastically reduce immigration, dismantle key security
agencies, and impose sweeping restrictions on asylum seekers,
all while failing to address humanitarian concerns or economic
realities that drive immigration.
Donald Trump's planned mass deportation, which will include
nonviolent and hardworking individuals, will distract law
enforcement from prioritizing violent criminals and national-
security threats. Such policies epitomize the Republican
approach: No real solution. No viable path forward. Just chaos.
While I understand my Republican colleagues wish to
continue the partisan border rhetoric, today's hearing should
have focused on protecting our Nation from the increasing
threat of natural disasters, which devastate communities every
year, causing loss of life and billions of dollars in damages.
This subcommittee has oversight jurisdiction of the Federal
Emergency Management Agency, and it is puzzling that after one
of the deadliest and most costly hurricane seasons we are not
discussing the impacts of Hurricane Helene or Milton or how our
subcommittee's work can help disaster survivors.
Under Republican leadership, Congress has failed to pass
critical disaster relief measures that could help communities
recover from devastating disasters. Despite the Biden-Harris
administration's request for supplemental funding for the
Disaster Relief Fund in both June and November 2024, no
additional funds have been allocated to help communities
recover from devastation.
This is not a Republican or a Democratic issue; this is an
American issue. As we sit here today, Republican leadership is
slow-walking the disaster relief package while Americans are
without help.
Specifically, the Small Business Administration announced 2
months ago that its Disaster Loan Program has run out of
funding, leaving 18,000 businesses and homeowners without
critical support they need to rebuild.
We should be talking about this today. My district is no
stranger to disasters, and the thought of Congress not moving
with the utmost speed to help survivors is extremely troubling.
Republicans' unwillingness to provide critical funding does
not stop at disasters. They've targeted Homeland Security
Grants, which are vital for emergency response and are within
the jurisdiction of this subcommittee.
Today's hearing could've also been about Homeland Security
Grant Program dollars to better support law enforcement,
especially since Republicans pushed for and enacted a 10-
percent cut to the Homeland Security Grant Program, like the
Urban Area Security Initiative, the State Homeland Security
Program, Operation Stonegarden, and the Nonprofit Security
Grant, which supports law enforcement and communities.
Also, ``Project 2025'' has called for these grants to be
terminated. All of this is familiar because, during his
Presidency, Donald Trump proposed slashing $700 million from
these grants in fiscal year 2021.
As one can see, there is plenty of work to be done for the
subcommittee to do. I look forward to the next Congress and
hope my Republican colleagues will prioritize safeguarding our
communities from disasters and providing support for those
working to help keep America safe.
As I said earlier, these are American issues. They're not
Republican or Democratic issues. It's high time that this
committee and this Congress address the issues that face the
American people and not individual parties.
With that, I yield back.
[The statement of Ranking Member Carter follows:]
Statement of Ranking Member Troy A. Carter
December 10, 2024
This is not the first hearing we have held about conditions on the
Southern Border--or the second hearing, or the third hearing. The
Committee on Homeland Security has held 23 prior hearings this Congress
on the Southern Border. Yet, not a single hearing has resulted in any
meaningful solutions from my Republican colleagues.
When they had the chance to do real work--by considering a
bipartisan border deal negotiated in the Senate, my Republican
colleagues rejected it and yielded to the demands of President-elect
Donald Trump, sabotaging a solution in favor of maintaining a political
talking point.
This was a bill described as the toughest bill in a generation.
This was a common-sense border security bill that would have
strengthened our defenses, included new Presidential emergency
authority to shut down the border when necessary, and provided much-
needed personnel and resources to communities. But Trump said no.
Now, Trump is returning to the Presidency and we are seeing a
resurgence of his partisan agenda taking precedence over meaningful
solutions. Project 2025, drafted in part by Trump's new ``Border Czar''
Thomas Homan, underscores the Republicans' strategy of chaos and
dysfunction. This initiative aims to drastically reduce immigration,
dismantle key security agencies, and impose sweeping restrictions on
asylum seekers--all while failing to address humanitarian concerns or
economic realities that drive immigration.
Donald Trump's planned mass deportations, which will include non-
violent and hardworking individuals, will distract law enforcement from
prioritizing violent criminals and national security threats. Such
policies epitomize the Republican approach: no real solutions, no
viable path forward, just chaos.
While I understand my Republican colleagues wish to continue their
partisan border rhetoric, today's hearing should have focused on
protecting our Nation from the increasing threat of natural disasters,
which devastate communities every year, causing loss of life and
billions in damages.
This subcommittee has oversight jurisdiction of the Federal
Emergency Management Agency and it is puzzling that, after one of the
deadliest and most costly hurricane seasons, we are not discussing the
impacts of Hurricanes Helene and Milton or how this subcommittee's work
can help disaster survivors.
Under Republican leadership, Congress has failed to pass critical
disaster relief measures that could help communities recover from
devastating disasters. Despite the Biden-Harris administration
requesting supplemental funding for the Disaster Relief Fund (DRF) in
both June and November 2024, no additional funds have been allocated to
help communities recover from devastation.
As we sit here today, Republican leadership is slow-walking the
disaster relief package while Americans are without help. Specifically,
the Small Business Administration (SBA) announced 2 months ago that its
disaster loan program has run out of funding, leaving 18,000 businesses
and homeowners without the critical support they need to rebuild. We
should be talking about this.
My District is no stranger to disasters and the thought of Congress
not moving with the utmost speed to help survivors is extremely
troubling.
Republican's unwillingness to provide critical funding does not
stop at disasters. They have targeted Homeland Security grants, which
are vital for emergency response and are within the jurisdiction of
this subcommittee.
Today's hearing could have also been about using Homeland Security
grant program dollars to better support law enforcement, especially
since Republicans pushed for and enacted 10 percent cuts to the
Homeland Security grant programs like the Urban Area Security
Initiative, the State Homeland Security Program, Operation Stonegarden,
and the Nonprofit Security Grant Program, which support law enforcement
and communities. Also, Project 2025 has called for these grants to be
``terminated.'' All of this is familiar because during his Presidency,
Donald Trump proposed slashing $700 million from these grants in fiscal
year 2021.
As one can see, there is plenty of work for the subcommittee to do.
I look forward to next Congress and I hope my Republican colleagues
will prioritize safeguarding our communities from disasters and
providing support for those working to keep us safe.
Mr. D'Esposito. Well, thank you, Mr. Ranking Member.
I just want to point out that President-elect Donald Trump
has made it very clear that ``Project 2025'' was nothing to do
with his administration. In fact, I think he said that he
didn't even read it.
When we talk about the border bill that we're saying that
Republicans failed on, that was not a solution; it was a
surrender. It codified the mess that Joe Biden created. It
continued catch-and-release. It allowed 5,000 migrants into
this country per day. No wall. It reaffirmed Biden's parole
abuses. It funneled billions of dollars to NGO's. It empowered
smugglers and traffickers. It provided immediate work permits
to hundreds of thousands of people.
Mr. Carter. If I might----
Mr. D'Esposito. Other Members of the subcommittee are
reminded----
Mr. Carter [continuing]. Mr. Chairman, just briefly?
Mr. D'Esposito. You're recognized.
Mr. Carter. Very respectfully, your comments are in
conflict with numerous news reports, even on Fox News, CNN, and
the various cable stations, that suggest that the comments that
you made that refute my comments are inconsistent with what
actual testimony says.
Mr. D'Esposito. I'm going to stick with my comments, and
know that the Republicans did their best to absolutely secure
this border and were stopped every step of the way because of
the Biden administration. They could've secured the border on
Day 1 with Executive Orders but, instead, allowed this country
to enable hundreds of thousands and millions more people to
come across our Southern Border.
Mr. Carter. The bipartisan bill that was in the Senate that
President Trump insisted stop, would you also say that
Republicans were for that? I think it was a bipartisan bill
that had Members of both the House--both Republicans and
Democrats.
Mr. D'Esposito. With all due respect, because one Member of
the Senate says that it's bipartisan doesn't make it
bipartisan. Where the starting point should've been is H.R. 2,
which was negotiated in this room.
Mr. Carter. Again----
Mr. D'Esposito. I never said--with all due respect, I never
said it was perfect, but what I did say is that--and I've said
this all along--it could've been a starting point.
With that----
Mr. Carter. I think it was a lot more than one Member of
the Senate that----
Mr. D'Esposito [continuing]. Others Members of the
subcommittee are----
Mr. Carter [continuing]. Supported that bipartisan bill.
Mr. D'Esposito [continuing]. Reminded that statements may
be submitted----
Mr. Carter. It was not one Member of----
Mr. D'Esposito [continuing]. For inclusion in the record.
Mr. Carter [continuing]. The Senate; it was multiple.
[The statement of Ranking Member Thompson follows:]
Statement of Ranking Member Bennie G. Thompson
December 10, 2024
Unfortunately, today's hearing is a missed opportunity for this
subcommittee to have a conversation about protecting Americans from
natural disasters, which cause loss of life and billions of dollars in
damage every year.
Coming off one of the deadliest and costliest hurricane seasons,
this subcommittee should have a conversation about the impacts of
Hurricanes Helene and Milton and discuss how our work can help disaster
survivors.
It is alarming that my Republican colleagues have shown no urgency
in providing FEMA and other Federal Agencies with supplemental funding
for disaster survivors. This funding was requested by President Biden
months ago and again in November and as we sit here today, they are
still looking for reasons not to support full funding.
This subcommittee should also address the misinformation and
disinformation spread this hurricane season by President-Elect Trump
and other Republicans this hurricane season, undermining the public's
perception of Federal support in the face of disasters and making
FEMA's job harder.
We need to do more to assure the public that the Committee on
Homeland Security is working to make this country stronger and more
resilient to all the threats we face.
Instead of focusing on FEMA, which is this subcommittee's
jurisdiction, today's hearing focuses on border security--an important
issue that Republicans have talked a lot about while actually doing
very little.
Earlier this year, the Senate came together to produce a bipartisan
border deal, but House Republicans blocked it. Republicans also voted
to cap non-defense discretionary funding, cutting 2,400 CBP officers
and agents.
It's clear that Republicans don't want policy solutions, they want
a political issue. I hope in the 119th Congress my colleagues will be
serious about working together on border security and immigration.
Mr. D'Esposito. I am very pleased to have such an important
panel of witnesses before us today.
I ask that the witnesses please rise and raise their right
hands.
[Witnesses sworn.]
Mr. D'Esposito. You may be seated.
Let the record reflect that the witnesses have answered in
the affirmative.
I would now like to formally introduce our witnesses.
Mr. Jonathan Thompson serves as the executive director and
CEO of the National Sheriffs' Association, representing the
interests of over 3,000 sheriffs and their deputies in the
United States. Previously, Mr. Thompson served as the director
of external affairs for FEMA and was previously deputy
assistant secretary of defense for public affairs and served
the Defense Reconstruction Support Office for Iraq and
Afghanistan Affairs.
Mr. Patrick Ryder is the commissioner of the Nassau County
Police Department. Commissioner Ryder has dedicated 41 years of
his life to law enforcement, 38 of those years with the Nassau
County Police Department. Throughout his career with the Nassau
County Police Department, Commissioner Ryder has implemented
several programs and initiatives to ensure officer and public
safety, including the creation of the Counterterrorism Unit. He
has a wealth of law enforcement experience and also serves as a
professor of criminal justice and intelligence-led policing at
Nassau Community College.
Mr. Mike Chapman was elected sheriff of Loudoun County,
Virginia, in 2011 and was reelected to serve his fourth term in
2023. Sheriff Chapman oversees a $133 million budget, 700 sworn
deputies, and 200 civilian personnel for the largest sheriff's
office in the Commonwealth of Virginia. In 2023, he was awarded
the National Sheriffs' Association Ferris E. Lucas Sheriff of
the Year Award. Prior to serving as sheriff, Mr. Chapman held
several positions within the Drug Enforcement Administration,
gaining extensive law enforcement experience throughout the
United States and holding field assignments in Miami, Tampa,
and Pakistan.
Mr. David Bier is the director of immigration studies at
the CATO Institute. Mr. Bier's work has appeared in The New
York Times, The Washington Post, USA Today, and many other
print and on-line publications. Prior to his position at the
CATO Institute, Mr. Bier worked as a senior policy advisor for
Congressman Labrador.
I thank the witnesses again for being here today.
I now recognize Mr. Thompson for 5 minutes to summarize his
opening statement.
STATEMENT OF JONATHAN F. THOMPSON, EXECUTIVE
DIRECTOR AND CEO, NATIONAL SHERIFFS' ASSOCIATION
Mr. Thompson. Good morning, and thank you, Mr. Chairman,
Ranking Member, distinguished Members of the subcommittee.
You have my written testimony before you, but I would like
to give you just a summary, if you will.
We appreciate you holding this hearing. This topic has
become more and more important as days have gone by since
November 2022, when we first learned about this threat.
I am Jonathan Thompson, executive director and the CEO of
National Sheriffs' Association, a nonprofit organization
representing 3,081 elected sheriffs and over 20,000 public-
safety professionals, including deputies, chiefs of police, and
other law enforcement officials across the United States.
The NSA is committed to elevating the professionalism in
law enforcement through education, through training, and
support. Our mission is to ensure that sheriffs--all sheriffs--
and law enforcement officers at every level--local, State, and
Federal--are equipped to protect our communities.
Today I'm here to talk about a growing threat, the
Venezuelan-based criminal organization Tren de Aragua. This
gang has become a severe public-safety threat to the U.S.
communities, and its rise is a direct consequence--a direct
consequence--of border policies that have failed this country.
The danger posed by TDA, coupled with the challenges of an
open border, should prompt immediate action from both Congress,
this administration, and the next administration to protect our
Nation's law enforcement officers and the people of this
country.
TDA has metastasized to the criminal element in this
country. It is the leading and most dangerous criminal element
we face, no doubt about it. It's a transnational criminal
organization that originated in Venezuela and now has expanded
its operations well into the United States. News reports are
showing and indicating that it is active in at least 17 States
in the United States. Those are just news reports; the facts
are starkly different.
We believe it has 5,000 members. It's involved in things
such as human trafficking, extortion, kidnapping, narcotics
trafficking. Incidents that have made national news, such as
the violent robbery in Denver and arrests in Colorado linked to
an attempted murder, highlight this growing presence.
In July, DHS issued a warning bulletin to law enforcement
about credible threats, as the Chairman alluded to and
mentioned in his opening remarks. Since March of 2023, CBP has
apprehended at least 70 TDA members, and estimates suggest over
a thousand--a thousand--may be operating in the United States.
It's important that--to note that in November 2022,
November 2022, the administration then issued--prepared a
written bulletin on border intelligence on TDA. That document
was not granted access to local law enforcement, that I'm
aware, until nearly a year later. One year, TDA operated,
unfiltered, uncontrolled, unreviewed, in the interior of this
country.
Though a little late to the game to address this threat at
the Federal level, the Department of Homeland Security is
hosting a webinar next year--next week, December 16, to brief
local law enforcement posed by--the dangers posed to local law
enforcement posed by TDA. The demand from law enforcement for
assistance to combat this gang--which, honestly, should be
classified as an FTO, foreign terrorist organization--is so
overwhelming that DHS had to move the webinar to a larger
platform, to over a hundred--to over a thousand registrants.
Border security has failed this Nation. We cannot let
perfect become the enemy of good. TDA exploits weaknesses in
U.S. border security. Since fiscal year 2021, over 10\1/2\
million immigrants have been encountered at the border,
including an estimated 2 million who have evaded capture.
Let me close by saying the following things. We have
recommendations for advancing the threat and addressing the
threat.
No. 1, we have to strengthen the border. We must recognize
that border security is a primary concern, immigration is a
primary concern, but we must have a secure border.
We need to reinstate Migrant Protection Protocols.
We need to use technology to vet, not to clear.
We need Congress to provide additional funding, direct
funding to law enforcement to help hire more deputies and
obtain technology.
We need to target trans-criminal organizations. I commend--
I commend this Department of Treasury for designating TDA as a
TCO. It's important.
We have to end apprehension-and-release policies. They are
unacceptable, and they are making this country more dangerous,
with a higher risk, by the minute.
We support bipartisan bills to help law enforcement--for
example, the POWER Act. We think it helps innumerably.
We need to enhance access to encrypted communications. This
is a problem. Every criminal organization in this country--
small, medium, or large--is using encrypted communications to
carry out illicit activities.
Technology is a friend, but it is also in conflict with our
country's basic morals and norms. We don't need to look any
further than actions like the CFPB's desire to clamp down on
access to critical data, public information for law
enforcement. That rule is dangerous on its face and at its
core. People's lives are at risk if that policy becomes--if
that rule becomes policy.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I apologize for going over.
[The prepared statement of Mr. Thompson follows:]
Prepared Statement of Jonathan F. Thompson
December 10, 2024
Chairman D'Esposito, Ranking Member Carter, and distinguished
Members of the subcommittee, thank you for holding this hearing on the
critical issue of ``Given the Green Light: Open Border Policies and
Threats to Law Enforcement'' and for the opportunity to testify.
I am Jonathan Thompson, executive director and CEO of the National
Sheriffs' Association (NSA), a non-profit organization that represents
more than 3,000 elected sheriffs and over 20,000 public safety
professionals, including deputies, chiefs of police, and other law
enforcement officials across the United States. The NSA is committed to
elevating professionalism in law enforcement through education,
training, and support. Our mission is to ensure that sheriffs and law
enforcement officers at every level--local, State, and Federal--are
well-equipped to protect our communities.
Today, I am here to talk about a growing threat: the Venezuelan-
based criminal organization Tren de Aragua (TDA). This gang has become
a severe public safety threat to U.S. communities, and its rise is a
direct consequence of failed border policies. The danger posed by TDA,
coupled with the challenges of an open border, should prompt immediate
action from both Congress and the administration to protect our
Nation's law enforcement officers and the American people.
the threat of tren de aragua
Tren de Aragua (TDA) originated in Venezuela's prison system and
has since grown into a powerful transnational criminal organization
with an estimated 5,000 members. Amid the Venezuelan refugee crisis,
TDA expanded its operations throughout Latin America and,
unfortunately, into the United States. This gang is known for its
involvement in human smuggling, human trafficking, extortion,
kidnapping, and narcotics trafficking.
In early September 2024, 4 members of the violent Tren de Aragua
gang were arrested in Aurora, Colorado, in connection with a shooting
and attempted murder on July 28 at the Fitzsimons Place apartment
complex, an incident that made national headlines. Earlier this summer,
TDA was linked to a violent armed robbery in Denver, where a jewelry
store owner was brutally attacked. This incident is a chilling reminder
that TDA is not just a distant foreign threat--it is operating within
our communities and targeting innocent civilians. The American Sheriff
Alliance has expressed grave concerns about the growing influence of
TDA and the real possibility that more such violent acts will occur if
their presence is not curtailed. These violent acts underscore TDA's
presence within our communities and their willingness to engage in open
violence on U.S. soil.
Sheriff Tyler Scott Brown of Arapahoe County, CO has said ``The
large influx of transnational individuals crossing our borders brings
with it a heightened risk of organized crime activity. We are seeing
significant participation in organized criminal enterprises like the
Tren de Aragua. These groups are involved in drug trafficking, money
laundering, and other serious offenses. Local law enforcement agencies
are utilizing every available resource to address this threat, but we
need Congress to act. Bipartisan legislation is crucial to provide the
necessary funding and support for our local jurisdictions to
effectively combat these criminal networks and protect our
communities.''
What has made TDA particularly alarming is the credible
intelligence that surfaced in July of this year. In July, the Office of
Intelligence and Analysis at the Department of Homeland Security issued
a bulletin to State and local law enforcement partners regarding
reported threats from Tren de Aragua (TDA) against law enforcement
personnel. Homeland Security Investigations (HSI) reported that TDA had
issued a ``green light'' directive to its members in Denver and New
York to attack law enforcement officers.
These threats are considered credible, and they signify a new level
of brazenness from this criminal organization. The bulletin reminded
agents and officers to remain aware of their surroundings, maintain a
heightened sense of vigilance, and always wear their body armor. Since
March 2023, U.S. Customs and Border Protection (CBP) has apprehended at
least 70 known TDA members in the United States. However, intelligence
estimates suggest that more than 1,000 TDA members may be operating
within our borders, posing a severe risk to law enforcement and public
safety.
border security failures and criminal exploitation
The rise of Tren de Aragua in the United States can be attributed
in part to our Nation's failure to secure its borders adequately. Since
fiscal year 2021, more than 10.5 million illegal immigrants have been
encountered by CBP, with over 8.5 million encounters at the Southwest
Border alone. Additionally, there are an estimated 2 million ``got-a-
ways'' who have evaded border agents and are now in the United States.
Among those crossing our borders illegally are not just vulnerable
migrants but also members of dangerous criminal organizations like TDA
and terrorist organizations.
The current policies of apprehension and release--where individuals
who cross the border illegally are released into the United States to
await immigration court hearings--have created a loophole that allows
criminals to exploit our system. Many of these hearings are delayed by
up to 11 years due to the lack of immigration judges. This delay
provides ample opportunity for criminal organizations to operate,
recruit, and spread violence in our communities.
Tren de Aragua's presence highlights a larger pattern of criminal
exploitation. They are just one of many transnational criminal
organizations taking advantage of the porous Southern Border to
infiltrate the United States, recruit new members, and carry out
violent crimes. Without stronger border security measures, more
dangerous individuals will continue to enter our country unchecked.
tda's connection to drug trafficking and human smuggling
The illegal activities of TDA extend beyond violence and gang-
related crime; they are also involved in the trafficking of dangerous
drugs, including fentanyl. The flood of illicit narcotics into the
United States, particularly fentanyl, has had devastating effects on
communities across the country. Over the last 3 years, the United
States has seen an average of 107,000 drug overdose deaths per year,
most of which are related to fentanyl. TDA and other gangs have
contributed to this epidemic by smuggling drugs across the U.S.-Mexico
border, where cartels like Sinaloa and Jalisco New Generation are
capitalizing on weak border controls.
Additionally, TDA is heavily involved in human smuggling and human
trafficking operations, victimizing migrants in their pursuit of
profit. Migrants often pay large sums to criminal organizations like
TDA, only to be subjected to further exploitation. The U.S. Government
must recognize that this is not just a border issue but a humanitarian
crisis, exacerbated by the involvement of violent gangs.
recommendations for addressing the threat
In light of the clear and present danger posed by Tren de Aragua
and the broader issue of border security, I urge Congress and the
administration to take the following steps:
1. Strengthen Border Security.--Reinstating policies like the
Migrant Protection Protocols (MPP), commonly known as the
``Remain in Mexico'' policy, which worked effectively in the
past to deter illegal immigration. Completing the physical
barriers along the Southern Border and increasing the personnel
and resources available to CBP and Immigration and Customs
Enforcement (ICE) is crucial.
2. Support for Local Law Enforcement.--As TDA and other gangs
expand their operations into American communities, sheriffs'
offices and local law enforcement agencies are on the front
lines of defense. Congress must provide additional funding and
resources to help sheriffs hire more deputies, obtain advanced
technology, and provide the necessary training to combat these
transnational criminal organizations.
3. Target Transnational Criminal Organizations (TCOs).--I commend
the U.S. Treasury Department for designating Tren de Aragua as
a Transnational Criminal Organization (TCO) and the State
Department for offering rewards for information leading to the
arrest of TDA leadership. However, more aggressive action is
needed to dismantle these gangs. Congress should pass
legislation that ensures Federal agencies have the authority
and resources to target and dismantle TCOs effectively.
4. End Apprehension and Release Policies.--The current system of
releasing individuals who cross the border illegally is
unsustainable. Congress must address the backlog in immigration
court cases by increasing the number of immigration judges and
prioritizing the adjudication of cases involving known
criminals or gang members.
5. Support Bipartisan Bills to Help Law Enforcement Investigate
Fentanyl.--H.R. 3148/S. 1507 Providing Officers with Electronic
Resources (POWER) Act aims to establish a new grant program
under the U.S. Department of Justice (DOJ). This program would
support State and local law enforcement agencies in obtaining
portable, high-tech screening devices that use laser technology
to identify potentially dangerous substances.
6. Enhance Access to Encrypted Communication for Law Enforcement.--
Criminal organizations like Tren de Aragua rely on encrypted
communication to carry out illicit activities. Law enforcement
must have lawful access to these devices to effectively
investigate and prevent crimes. Providing the necessary tools
and legal authority to access encrypted communications is
crucial for combating organized crime and protecting our
communities.
conclusion
The threat posed by Tren de Aragua is clear and urgent. Their
presence within our borders, combined with the broader issue of failed
border security policies, places law enforcement officers and American
communities at grave risk. Now is the time for Congress and the
administration to take meaningful, bipartisan action to secure our
borders, dismantle criminal organizations like TDA, and provide the
resources our law enforcement agencies need to keep the American people
safe.
Thank you again for the opportunity to testify, and I stand ready
to work with this committee to address these critical issues.
Mr. D'Esposito. Thank you, Mr. Thompson.
I now recognize Commissioner Ryder for 5 minutes to
summarize his opening statement.
STATEMENT OF PATRICK J. RYDER, COMMISSIONER, NASSAU
COUNTY POLICE DEPARTMENT, STATE OF NEW YORK
Mr. Ryder. Thank you, Chairman D'Esposito, Ranking Member
Carter, and distinguished Members of the Subcommittee on
Emergency Management and Technology.
I am Patrick Ryder. I've served with the Nassau County
Police as commissioner for 8 years. This is my 41st year in law
enforcement.
Throughout my tenure, I've witnessed the crack wars of the
1980's, cocaine usage of the 1990's, and the more recent
devastating effects of heroin and fentanyl. Last year, Nassau
County PD Narcan'd over 350 times, saving our residents from
fatal overdoses. However, despite our efforts, we still lost
over several hundred citizens to substance abuse.
Nevertheless, these times pale in comparison to the lawless
society we are policing today. This turbulent environment
emerged due to the lack of penalty for criminal activity, which
directly affects the quality of life of our residents.
Security measures taken by corporate security in New York
City are far greater than what is taken at our border. At our
border, migrants are stopped, checked best as possible, review
whatever paper they have, then offered a court date in excess
of a year.
In the interim, there is nothing stopping these
undocumented persons from entering our communities, committing
crimes, whether violent or petty, joining gangs or preying on
the Nassau County residents. Today I will testify to several
examples of crimes committed by migrants, but please know there
are many more.
There are resources that are given by--Nassau County spans
over the 4---excuse me--284 square miles and our residents of
1.5 million people. The ethnic and racial diversity of Nassau
County citizens closely resembles that of our great Nation:
55.8 percent of Nassau County population is White/non-Hispanic,
18.4 percent is Hispanic/Latino, compared to the United States
of 57.8 and 18.7 respectively.
New York City being a sanctuary city has a ripple effect on
a non-sanctuary Nassau County. Nassau County Police Department
is the nearest eastern jurisdiction of the NYPD. While New York
City addresses the migrant housing crisis, it is reasonable to
predict migrants would begin to journey away from the city,
leaving New York's Nassau County Department to protect our
border, spanning approximately 14 miles.
NCPD employs resources to address those increased number of
undocumented persons within the county borders, addressing
quality-of-life issues/concerns reported by Nassau County
citizens for an overwhelming amount of peddling and soliciting,
increase in aided and intoxicated persons, of undomiciled
aided, who state they traveled from New York City. Most of
these calls result in the aided being transferred to one of our
local hospitals.
Nassau County Police Department utilizes Language Line and
has seen a 95 percent increase in calls on that service.
Emerging trend for summonses on electronic mopeds, which
are considered street-safe--not considered street-safe in
Nassau County. Moped operators travel to Nassau from New York
City, where they are considered safe. Since July of 2023, NCPD
has seized approximately 150 mopeds for reasons such as no
insurance, no registration, non-licensed operators. They,
again, cause our victims a price when they are struck by one of
these vehicles.
An uptick in auto accidents, uninsured and unregistered
vehicles where vehicles' operators reside in New York City.
There are two major categories in the migrant crimes where
the majority of allocated Nassau County resources are utilized.
Crimes that could be affected by patrol are instances that
present--where the presence of police officers would have
deterred the crime. Crimes affected by patrol are burglaries,
robberies, auto crimes, drug activity, gang activity, and other
violent issues.
Over the past few years, Nassau County Police Department
has seen an increase in crimes committed by migrants. With bail
reform changes in 2020, the NCPD is unable to utilize the
incarceration as a crime deterrence for the overwhelming
majority of offenses, including felonies. With no incarceration
post-apprehension, no ICE notification without arraignment, and
no threats of deportation, criminal migrants could be repeat
offenders, leaving defenseless Nassau County residents.
Acting on intelligence provided by Homeland Security,
detectives conducted a car stop. The undocumented migrant
possessed 3 kilos of pure fentanyl. The NCPD has made great
efforts in the opioid epidemic. Nassau County fatal overdoses
have been trending down. But the amount of fentanyl seized in
that case would have killed just about every citizen on Long
Island, over 3 million people.
Nassau County has a notable increase in gang violence,
including migrants aligning with MS-13 and Latin King gangs,
since 2021. These crimes have included stabbings, vehicular
assaults, shootings, and assault with weapons. These incidents
are affiliated with MS-13 and Latin King wars, and arrestees
are migrants and some illegal migrants.
Since October of 2022, a total of 43 undocumented migrants
here in this county illegally have been arrested and charged
with 93 counts of burglary. The South American Theft Group,
which has hit Nassau County several times, has stolen over $30
million to $50 million of people's assets. Those $30 million to
$50 million have not been recovered, but the 5 out of the 6
that we arrested were released without bail, asked to put on an
ankle bracelet, and then, after putting that ankle bracelet on,
cut that ankle bracelet off at the border of New Jersey and
fled so we cannot get them.
There are migrant crimes that are not affected by patrol.
In 2014, an undocumented migrant affected--entered the
United States illegally in the vicinity of the Rio Grande
Valley in Texas. That subject was placed under arrest,
released, and told to come back for an immigration hearing. Ten
years later, that undocumented 27-year-old illegal migrant just
last month raped a 5-year-old girl in the confines of his
bedroom.
A defendant, a migrant MS-13 gang member, raped his
domestic partner on 2 separate occasions, with the threat of
use of force and firearms.
The system has failed the victims of these crimes. The
lives of a young child and a young woman have been forever
altered, not because of the failure to deter crime, but because
the perpetrators should've never been in this country in the
first place.
The county is not a sanctuary county, yet we all still are
faced with the defiance. The alternative would create an
insurmountable challenge.
Again, I apologize for going over. I did have some slides,
but I will hold them and turn them over.
Thank you.
[The prepared statement of Mr. Ryder follows:]
Prepared Statement of Patrick J. Ryder
December 5, 2024
introduction
Thank you, Chairman Green, Chairman D'Esposito, Ranking Member
Carter, and distinguished Members of the Subcommittee on Emergency
Management and Technology, for affording me the opportunity to testify
at this important hearing regarding ``Given the Green Light: Open
Border Policies and Threats to Law Enforcement''.
I am Patrick J. Ryder and I have served the people of Nassau County
as police commissioner for 8 years. This year is my forty-second in law
enforcement. Throughout my tenure, I've witnessed the crack wars of the
1980's, the increased cocaine usage in the 1990's, and the more recent,
devastating effects of heroin and fentanyl. Last year, NCPD
administered Narcan 335 times saving our residents from fatally
overdosing. However, despite our efforts, Nassau County still lost over
100 citizens to substance abuse. Nevertheless, these times pale in
comparison to the lawless society we are policing today. This turbulent
environment emerged due to the lack of penalty for criminal activity
which directly effects the quality of life of our residents. Security
measures taken by corporate security to enter New York business
facilities is far greater than what is required to enter this country.
At our border, migrants are stopped, checked as best as possible,
review whatever papers are presented, then offered a court date in
excess of 1 year. In the interim, there is nothing stopping these
undocumented person(s) from entering our communities, committing
crimes, whether violent or petty, or joining gangs, and preying on
Nassau County residents. Today, I will testify to several examples of
crimes committed by migrants, but please know, there are many more.
resources in safeguarding nassau county residents
Nassau County spans approximately 284 miles and is a home to almost
1.5 million residents. The ethnic and racial diversity of Nassau County
citizens closely resembles that of our great nation. Fifty-five-point-
eight percent of Nassau County's population is White/Non-Hispanic and
18.4 percent is Hispanic/Latino, compared to the United States which is
57.8 percent and 18.7 percent respectively.
New York City being a sanctuary city has a ripple effect on non-
sanctuary Nassau County. Nassau County Police Department is the nearest
eastern jurisdiction to NYCPD. While New York City addresses the
migrant housing crisis, it is reasonable to predict migrants would
begin to journey away from the city leaving Nassau County Police
Department to protect the border spanning approximately 14 miles. The
NCPD employs resources to address the increased number of undocumented
persons within county borders:
Addressing quality of life concerns reported by Nassau
County citizens for an overwhelming amount of peddling and
soliciting in malls and shopping centers near the NYC border.
Increase in aided and intoxicated person calls involving
undomiciled aided(s) who state they traveled from NYC. Most of
these calls result in aided transport to one of Nassau County's
hospitals.
Nassau County Police Department utilizes Language Line for
language translation services whether in person or
telephonically. There has been a 95 percent increase in
Hispanic calls to Language Line from 2020 to 2023.
Emerging trend of summonses to electronic mopeds which are
not considered street safe in Nassau County. Moped operators
travel to Nassau from NYC where these vehicles are legally
allowed to operate in traffic. Since July 2023 NCPD has seized
approximately 150 mopeds for reasons such as: no insurance, no
registration, non-licensed operator, and traveling at speeds in
excess of 20 miles per hour.
Uptick in auto accidents in uninsured and/or unregistered
vehicles where vehicle operators reside in NYC.
There are 2 major categories of migrant crimes where the majority
of allocated NCPD resources are utilized. These categories are affected
by patrol and not affected by patrol.
migrant crimes affected by patrol
Crimes that could be affected by patrol are instances where the
presence of a police officer would have deterred the crime. Crimes
affected by patrol are burglaries, robberies, auto crimes, gang
activity, drug sales, and other violent crimes. Over the past few
years, Nassau County Police Department has seen an increase in crimes
committed by migrants. With bail reform law changes in 2020, the NCPD
is unable to utilize incarceration as a crime deterrence for the
overwhelming majority of offenses, including many felonies. With no
incarceration post apprehension, no ICE notification without
arraignment, and no threat of deportation, criminal migrants could be
repeat offenders leaving defenseless Nassau County residents to be
victims. The following are a sample of crimes affected by patrol
committed by migrant defendants:
Acting on intelligence provided by Homeland Security,
detectives conducted a car stop where defendant, an
undocumented migrant, was in possession of 3 kilos of pure
fentanyl. The NCPD has made arduous efforts in combating the
opioid epidemic. Nassau County fatal overdoses have been
trending down from 2021 through 2024. The amount of fentanyl
seized had the potential to kill millions of people. NCPD
narcotics enforcement will be fruitless if our borders are not
secured.
Nassau County has a notable increase in gang violence
involving migrants aligning with MS-13 and Latin King gangs
since July 2021. These crimes include stabbing, vehicular
assault, shootings, and assault with a weapon. Three incidents
are affiliated with MS-13/Latin King ``war'' and all arrestees
are migrants, some were here illegally.
Since October 2022, a total of 43 undocumented migrants,
here in this country illegally, have been arrested and charged
with 93 counts of burglary. These arrests are considered to be
a part of the South American Theft Group (SATG).
SATG jewelry store burglary.--Six South American illegal
migrants were arrested for a jewelry store burglary in
Nassau County and are suspected of targeting numerous
jewelry stores along the East Coast. Of the 6 arrestees, 1
was remanded and 5 were released without bail. The
whereabouts of all 5 released defendants is unknown. Two
never reported to receive their ankle monitors and 3 cut
off their devices.
migrant crimes not affected by patrol
The Nassau County Police Department also utilizes resources in an
effort to combat crimes committed by migrants that are not affected by
patrol. Crimes not affected by patrol would not be deterred by visual
police presence such as domestic incidents, sex crimes, and any other
crimes that occur outside an officer's field of view. To reduce crimes
not affected by patrol, the NCPD relies heavily on crime trends and
intelligence gathering. NCPD implements a focused deterrence strategy
in identifying known offenders by analyzing prior police contacts, gang
affiliations, major crime and felony arrests, as well as arrests
involving weapons and reckless endangerment. Undocumented persons who
have not been properly vetted before crossing the border, pose a threat
to the residents of Nassau County because their intentions are unknown.
Illegal migrants render NCPD unable to make an intelligence assessment
of character based on the lack of prior knowledge. A lifetime of
potential PD contacts such as school incident reports, domestic
reports, traffic stops, field interviews, calls for service, and aided
reports are missed. The following crimes not affected by patrol have
been committed by migrants here illegally:
In 2014 an undocumented migrant, entered the United States
illegally in the vicinity of the Rio Grande Valley, Texas. This
subject was placed under arrest and released, then failed to
appear for his immigration court hearing. Ten years later, the
same undocumented, 27-year-old, illegal migrant, raped a 5-
year-old girl in the confines of his bedroom.
Defendant, a migrant and MS-13 gang member, raped his
domestic partner on 2 separate occasions. Victim continued the
relationship in fear for her safety. Defendant continued
violently threatening victim who knew defendant was in
possession of multiple firearms. Subsequent to arrest, a search
warrant was conducted and several firearms were recovered.
The above-mentioned crimes are atrocities committed by migrants who
took advantage of our country's sanctuary status. The deluded migrant
programs and the inadequacy in the vetting process leaves undocumented
persons, whose true intentions are unknown, free to wander about our
communities. The system has failed the victims of these crimes. The
lives of a young child and a young woman are forever altered, not
because of failure to deter the crime, but because the perpetrators
should have never been in this country in the first place.
Nassau County is not a sanctuary county, yet we are still faced
with defiance. The alternative would create an insurmountable
challenge.
Thank you for your time and attention on this consequential matter.
Mr. D'Esposito. Thank you, Commissioner.
I now recognize Sheriff Chapman for 5 minutes to summarize
his opening statement.
STATEMENT OF MICHAEL L. CHAPMAN, SHERIFF OF
LOUDOUN COUNTY, STATE OF VIRGINIA, ON BEHALF OF
THE MAJOR COUNTY SHERIFFS OF AMERICA
Sheriff Chapman. Good morning, Mr. Chairman, Ranking
Member, Members of this subcommittee. I am Sheriff Mike Chapman
of Loudoun County, Virginia. I am here representing the Major
County Sheriffs of America.
As a 46-year career law enforcement professional having
served in local and Federal law enforcement, including 23 years
with the DEA, as a 4-time elected sheriff of Virginia's largest
full-service sheriff's office, as a former vice president of
homeland security for the Major County Sheriffs of America, and
as a 2-time chairman of the Washington/Baltimore HIDTA, I am
astonished at how any elected official would support practices
that would make their communities less safe. The safety of our
citizens should always be the No. 1 priority of Government.
Unfortunately, over the past 4 years, the United States has
seen an unmitigated flow of undocumented and criminal aliens
enter this country, with many localities throughout the United
States encouraging their sanctuary despite minimal, if not a
total lack of, proper vetting.
This has nothing to do with the efforts and desires of the
brave men and women doing their best to secure our border.
Most notable are the millions of illegal entries to this
country that include those associated with MS-13 and 18th
Street gangs from El Salvador, the Venezuelan gang known as
Tren de Aragua, and known terrorists.
No single issue has had more of an impact on crime
throughout the United States than our open borders. The impacts
are stark. From years in which over 100,000 citizens lost their
lives each year due to fentanyl poisonings, to the increase in
human trafficking, to unconscionable murders, to deadly threats
against law enforcement, and to major retail theft operations,
the scope of crime and violence related to undocumented
criminal aliens cannot be overstated.
In Loudoun County, one of the safest localities in the
entire United States, we have seen an increase in unprecedented
violence in recent years. Of our last 5 homicides, 3 were
committed by suspects in this county illegally, 2 of which were
by a self-proclaimed MS-13 gang member. Just last week, a
previously affiliated MS-13 gang member opened fire on another
vehicle, resulting from a simple road-rage incident.
Addressing these increasing threats takes an all-hands-on-
deck approach, one that requires all law enforcement to work
together and respect the specific missions of our fellow
agencies. First and foremost, cooperation with Immigration and
Customs Enforcement, ICE, is a must. Border Patrol and ICE are
the front lines, with the next line of defense being our
locally-elected sheriffs.
It is imperative that we get the resources we need to work
with our Federal partners to keep our communities safe, but it
cannot stop there. All our Federal law enforcement agencies are
part of the mix.
Working with the DEA, for example, in Operation Angel's
Envy, our sheriff's office was able to arrest a multitude of
violators, many in this country illegally, who were working
with the Sinaloa Cartel to distribute fentanyl to the
Washington, DC, area--enough fentanyl to kill every man, woman,
and child in Loudoun County 2 times over.
Working with ATF, we have been able to focus on the guns
being used and shared by MS-13 gang members.
Working with postal inspectors, we track packages and
conduct controlled deliveries to stop this deadly scourge of
drugs being distributed by mail.
It is critical that our Federal partners work more closely
with local counterparts to put an end to this scourge that has
killed hundreds of thousands of people over the past several
years.
Starting with the border, we must continue to build a wall,
refuse illegal entries, enhance technology, and encourage
``remain in Mexico'' policies.
If an all-hands-on-deck approach is not aggressively
pursued, these problems will continue to migrate to our most
populated areas, to our cities, that were once beautiful, which
have now become unsafe.
As law enforcement officers, we have a duty and
responsibility to work together to protect our citizens and
keep them safe, and Congress has a duty to support these
efforts. Consequently, sheriffs throughout this country support
the following policy initiatives of the incoming
administration. Just this week, Sheriff Mark Dannels of Cochise
County, Arizona, summarized the incoming administration's rule
of law: prevention, enforcement, and consequences.
Our request consists of the following:
No. 1, Congress must prioritize our efforts to secure the
border, enforce immigration laws, and strengthen information
sharing among Federal, State, and local and Tribal law
enforcement.
No. 2, Congress must increase our access to technology
investigative tools among law enforcement agencies. For
example, facial recognition software, license plate readers,
and social media analytical tools are integral to generating
investigative leads and preventing crime and acts of terrorism.
No. 3, Congress must support and adequately fund Federal
law enforcement agencies to partner with and aid local law
enforcement in solving crime.
Four, finally, all of us involved in enforcing the law and
supporting our enforcement of the law must work together in the
fight against cartels and illicit drug trafficking and provide
enhanced funding for Federal, State, and local narcotic
enforcement efforts.
Only by working together toward a common goal can we make
these efforts and America safer.
Thank you.
[The prepared statement of Sheriff Chapman follows:]
Prepared Statement of Sheriff Michael L. Chapman
December 10, 2024
Good morning, Mr. Chairman and Members of this committee. I am
Sheriff Mike Chapman of Loudoun County, Virginia. I am here
representing the Major County Sheriffs of America.
As a 46-year career law enforcement professional having served in
local and Federal law enforcement, including 23 years with the DEA, as
a 4-time elected sheriff of Virginia's largest full-service sheriff's
office, as former vice president of homeland security for the Major
County Sheriffs of America, and as 2-time chairman of the Washington-
Baltimore HIDTA, I am astonished at how any elected official would
support practices that would make their communities less safe.
The safety of our citizens should always be the No. 1 priority of
Government. Unfortunately, over the past 4 years, the United States has
seen an unmitigated flow of undocumented and criminal aliens enter this
country, with many localities throughout the United States encouraging
their sanctuary despite minimal, if not a total lack of proper vetting.
This has nothing to do with the efforts and desires of the brave men
and women doing their best to secure our border.
Most notable are the of millions of illegal entries to this
country, that include those associated with MS-13 and 18th Street gangs
from El Salvador, the Venezuelan gang known as Tren de Aragua (TDA),
and known terrorists. No single issue has had more of an impact on
crime throughout the United States, than our open borders. The impacts
are stark from years in which over 100,000 citizens lost their lives
each year due to fentanyl poisonings; to the increase in human
trafficking; to unconscionable murders; to deadly threats against law
enforcement, to major retail theft operations, the scope of crime and
violence related to undocumented criminal aliens cannot be understated.
In Loudoun County, one of the safest localities in the entire
United States, we have seen an increase in unprecedented violence in
recent years. Of our last 5 homicides, 3 were committed by suspects in
this country illegally, 2 of which were by a self-proclaimed MS-13 gang
member. Just this week, a previously affiliated MS-13 gang member
opened fire on another vehicle resulting from a simple ``road rage''
incident.
Addressing these increasing threats takes an ``All-Hands-on-Deck''
approach, one that requires all law enforcement to work together and
respect the specific missions of our fellow agencies. First and
foremost, cooperation with Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) is
a must. Border Patrol and ICE are the front lines, with the next line
of defense being our locally-elected sheriffs. It is imperative that we
get the resources we need to work with our Federal partners to keep our
communities safe.
But it cannot stop there. All our Federal law enforcement agencies
are part of the mix. Working with the DEA, for example, in ``Operation
Angel's Envy,'' our Sheriff's Office was able to arrest a multitude of
violators, many in this country illegally, who were working with the
Sinaloa Cartel to distribute fentanyl to the Washington, DC area--
enough fentanyl to kill every man, woman, and child in Loudoun County 2
times over.
Working with ATF, we have been able to focus on the guns being
used--and shared by MS-13 gang members. Working with Postal Inspectors,
we track packages and conduct controlled deliveries to stop this deadly
scourge of drugs being distributed by mail. It is critical that our
Federal partners work more closely with local counterparts to put an
end to this scourge that has killed hundreds of thousands of people
over the past several years.
Starting with the border, we must continue to build a wall, refuse
illegal entries, enhance technology, and encourage ``Remain in Mexico''
policies. If an ``All-Hands-on-Deck'' approach is not aggressively
pursued, these problems will continue to migrate to our most populated
areas, to our cities that were once beautiful which have now become
unsafe. As law enforcement enforcers, we have a duty and responsibility
to work together to protect our citizens and keep them safe--and
Congress has a duty to support these efforts.
Consequently, sheriffs throughout this country support the
following policy initiatives of the incoming administration. Just this
week, Sheriff Mark Dannels of Cochise County, Arizona summarized the
incoming administration's Rule of Law: Prevention, Enforcement, and
Consequences.
Our requests consist of the following:
1. Congress must prioritize our efforts to secure the border,
enforce immigration laws, and strengthen information sharing
among Federal, State, local, and Tribal law enforcement.
2. Congress must increase our access to technological investigative
tools among law enforcement agencies. For example, facial
recognition software, license plate readers, and social media
analytical tools are integral to generating investigative leads
and preventing crime and acts of terrorism.
3. Congress must support and adequately fund Federal law
enforcement agencies to partner with, and aid local law
enforcement in solving crime.
4. Finally, all of us involved in enforcing the law and supporting
our enforcement of the law, must work together in the fight
against cartels and illicit drug trafficking, and provide
enhanced funding for Federal, State, and local narcotic
enforcement efforts.
5. Only by working together toward a common goal can we make
America safer.
Mr. D'Esposito. Thank you very much, Mr. Chapman.
I now recognize Mr. Bier to summarize his opening
statement.
STATEMENT OF DAVID J. BIER, PRIVATE CITIZEN
Mr. Bier. Chairman, Ranking Member, distinguished Members
of the subcommittee, thank you for the opportunity to testify.
For nearly half a century, the CATO Institute has produced
original research showing that, in a free society, people,
whatever their ancestry, background, or birthplace, are
directed toward activities that benefit mankind.
Like they have for centuries, America's new immigrants are
contributing to our success, working for us and with us to
build a stronger, wealthier, and safer country.
But immigrants are people, and some people commit crimes.
Is mass deportation the answer? No. Mass deportation would make
Americans, including law enforcement, less safe.
In 2023, immigrants, legal and illegal, were half as likely
to have committed crimes serious enough for them to be
incarcerated in the United States. Data from Texas showed that,
in 2022, the average illegal immigrant was 36 percent less
likely to commit and be convicted of murder. Legal immigrants
were even less likely.
Not surprisingly, crime rates and murder rates have been
shown to fall in response to immigration. In my written
testimony, I show that homicides have fallen in 83 percent of
the 72 cities receiving most of the new illegal immigrants.
Cities with more new illegal immigrants were slightly more
likely to see a decline in homicides. Salt Lake City was the
top city for immigration court filings as a percentage of its
population, and its murders fell 53 percent, twice as fast as
the national average.
CATO also reviewed every instance of a law enforcement
officer being shot and killed in the line of duty in 2024,
finding no illegal-immigrant shooters. We looked at every NYPD
officer killed for the last decade--again, no illegal-immigrant
killers. In fact, immigrants were more likely to be killed
serving as NYPD officers than they were to kill NYPD officers.
We shouldn't be surprised by these findings. Immigrants are
more likely to be engaged in activities not associated with
crime, such as working, starting businesses, marrying, having
kids, attending church, and avoiding drugs.
Mass deportation would remove a population less likely to
commit serious crimes, which would increase the crime rate and
victimization rate for Americans and U.S. law enforcement.
But let's suppose I'm wrong and immigrants are more likely
to commit crimes. Mass deportation would still harm public
safety. Mass deportation means indiscriminate enforcement. It
means targeting peaceful people. It de-prioritizes serious
offenders.
We saw how that played out during 4 years of Trump, who
removed the requirement to target criminals in his first week
in office. He doubled arrests of non-criminals--pizza delivery
drivers, domestic violence victims, spouses of U.S. citizens--
and he released twice as many convicted criminals from ICE
custody as President Biden has.
Trump separated families, which U.S. attorneys said allowed
sex offenders to go free.
When you're only interested in deporting as many people as
possible, you'll downplay public safety. As a result, the
number of criminals trying to enter illegally tripled to record
highs under Trump.
The threat of mass deportation won't deter criminals, but
it would threaten immigrant victims and witnesses who work with
law enforcement to stop and solve crimes.
Let me be clear: When a non-citizen victimizes someone in
the United States, their welcome is over. Even one such
instance is too many. That's why law enforcement should be
focused on those threats.
Don't ignore illegal immigration; fix it. But, rather than
mass deportation, what we need is legal immigration. Create
legal ways for peaceful people to apply, get vetted, and live
here legally. Then cops can be cops and focus on threats to
public safety. That's something we all can agree on.
Thank you.
[The prepared statement of Mr. Bier follows:]
[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Mr. D'Esposito. Thank you, Mr. Bier.
Members will be recognized by order of seniority for their
5 minutes of questioning. An additional round of questioning
may be called after all Members have been recognized.
I now recognize myself for 5 minutes.
Mr. Thompson, a recent article by the New York Post
revealed that Tren de Aragua, its growing network now extends
throughout 16 States. A leaked Homeland Security memo revealed
that their ``violent tendencies continue to evolve and have
manifested through its expansion into the United States''.
How have your communities been impacted by TDA?
Mr. Thompson. Thank you for the question, Mr. Chairman.
It's devastation, pure and simple.
I respectfully disagree with my colleague on the far end of
the table. One life lost because of the TDA is preventable, but
we're talking dozens, if not more. Now we're looking at the
targeting of law enforcement across the country. It's not just
in New York City. It is in nearly every location where TDA
exists.
How has it affected our sheriffs and their deputies? I'm
going to defer to Sheriff Chapman on part of the answer, but I
can tell you, as recently as this past weekend, where I was in
Missouri talking to 40 newly-elected sheriffs and, previous to
that, on Thursday in Oklahoma, it's a problem. It is a serious
problem. It is not limited to major cities. It is not limited
to major-population-density areas. It is across the board.
TDA has become the most effective, well-financed, best-
communicating business operation for a criminal enterprise we
have ever seen. They are dangerous. They are everywhere.
Mr. D'Esposito. Thank you.
Commissioner Ryder, the DEA continues to seize records--
record amounts of illicit fentanyl every year. This is because
of the hard work of agents and local law enforcement throughout
the country. Even when they're hindered by Democrat policies,
they've been able to seize from 2021 6,875 kilograms of
fentanyl to nearly twice that in 2023. In fiscal year 2023, CBP
seized nearly 27,000 pounds of fentanyl at the Southwest
Border.
I know you mentioned it in your opening statement, but how
has fentanyl affected local law enforcement agencies,
especially your agency and across Long Island?
Mr. Ryder. So imagine you're that mother or father come
home and your son or daughter has overdosed and they're on the
front--you're calling for an ambulance. With that ambulance is
going to come 2 police officers. With those 2 police officers,
2 ambulances may show up. We're going to try to revive. We're
going to give him Narcan. If we get the Narcan and we're
successful, we're taking that person to the hospital.
The next day, you're back at the same house. That kid
overdoses again, again on fentanyl. We Narcan him again.
By the third day, you come back, that kid is dead. Now, not
only does the family live with the loss of that child, now the
police officer has to look and live with the fact that he
failed, he failed that family because back to the hospital 3
times. The system did nothing for him.
The fentanyl has saturated our communities. Massapequa is
probably one of the most recognized middle-class American
communities in the country, and it has the highest overdoses in
our county, in Massapequa, because it's so available, it's so
cheap, and it is so addictive.
It is affecting not only the families, not only the
victims, but law enforcement is suffering too, because they've
got to witness it day-in and day-out.
Mr. D'Esposito. Sheriff Chapman, you shared in your written
testimony that your county has seen an increase in violence in
recent years, and you tie it back specifically to President
Biden's open-border policies.
Can you tell me how Federal partners, including ICE, ATF,
and the DEA, could better support counties like yours in the
face of the influx of migrant crime?
Sheriff Chapman. Well, Mr. Chairman, if you look at the
surrounding counties that are in the northern Virginia/
Washington, DC, area, most of them are sanctuary counties. We
are not.
We work very closely with ICE. We make sure that anytime we
arrest somebody, we run them through the system, and if the
system comes back and they're--they're of interest to ICE, that
ICE gets involved right away and they determine whether or not
they want to pick somebody up or not. So, regardless of whether
a detainer is filed or not, we notify them.
I think the key here is to make sure that any time we take
somebody into custody, that we run them through the system, the
IAQ system, ICE lets us know, and that we go ahead and we
respond appropriately.
We can't get our job done unless we're working with our
counterparts. I think it's a shame and it's really
unconscionable that--we're all in this together, we all should
be working with each other--and that some agencies choose not
to do that.
Mr. D'Esposito. Well, I think that's going to change come
January. I hope that the agencies are able to work well with
their local partners due to mutual respect and understanding
that we all want to make this country safe again.
Sheriff Chapman. I agree, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. D'Esposito. I now recognize the Ranking Member for 5
minutes of questioning.
Mr. Carter. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Thank you to all of our witnesses for joining us today.
Mr. Bier, does deporting people to another country require
the country's cooperation? Are there some countries that won't
accept deportations? Which countries are those? Do you expect
that to change under the second Trump administration?
Mr. Bier. Yes, so you do need cooperation from the
countries that you're sending these individuals to. They need
travel authorization. They need to demonstrate that they are
citizens of the country they're being sent to. If you have no
diplomatic relations, like we do with Venezuela, you can't
deport people very easily to Venezuela if they're refusing to
cooperate in that process.
Now, for very serious offenders, the Biden administration
has figured out ways to go through a third country to deport
them. So they are trying to make efforts to get around that
already, and I expect those efforts would continue under a
Trump administration. But it's difficult if you're not going to
reestablish diplomatic relations with the socialist government
there.
Mr. Carter. Mr. Chapman, ``Project 2025'' calls for
terminating funding for Criminal Homeland Security Grants,
including the Urban Area Security Initiative and the State
Homeland Security Program, while advocating for State and local
governments to bear the financial responsibility instead.
In your testimony--Mr. Chapman, in your testimony, you
stated that Congress must increase our access to technological
investigative tools for law enforcement. Will 2025's plan to
terminate Homeland Security grant programs help to protect your
community?
Sheriff Chapman. Mr. Ranking Member, I think it's important
that we continue to work with Congress, that we continue to get
as much funding as possible to help with our efforts there in
protecting our borders and working with Homeland Security.
So I'm not really quite sure exactly what your question is
there, but I do think it's imperative that we continue to
work----
Mr. Carter. Well, let me be clear what the question is.
These projects that aim to dismantle these programs under
``Project 2025,'' will they help you or hurt you?
Sheriff Chapman. Well, I'm not aware----
Mr. Carter. If you're talking about taking----
Sheriff Chapman. I'm not aware of what----
Mr. Carter. Well, I'm sharing--I'm sharing with you now.
Sheriff Chapman. OK.
Mr. Carter. There is a 900-page manifesto that spells it
out quite clearly. One of the things that it spells out is what
I just suggested.
Sheriff Chapman. Well, I can't answer for ``Project 2025.''
I'm not----
Mr. Carter. Well, let's take ``Project 2025'' away and say,
if these tools for law enforcement were taken away, regardless
of how it happened, ``Project 2025'' or some other nefarious
action that reduced your resources, does it help you or hurt
you in your efforts?
Sheriff Chapman. We continue to need resources to fight
this--these efforts----
Mr. Carter. I assume the answer is yes.
Sheriff Chapman. The answer is, we would continue to need
resources. However, I do agree that efficiency is important in
anything that we do in the Federal Government.
Mr. Carter. Will eliminating these resources further assist
your community in preventing or responding to crime?
Sheriff Chapman. Eliminating resources from the Federal
Government that helps our local law enforcement would be a--
would create difficulty for us, yes.
Mr. Carter. OK.
If we go back and we talk about some of the things that
were mentioned--Mr. Thompson, we've mentioned and we've said
repeatedly that this committee should talk about this in not a
partisan way but in a way that addresses the concerns of the
American people.
Are you familiar with ``Project 2025''?
Mr. Thompson. I am not.
Mr. Carter. You're not? You've never heard of it?
Mr. Thompson. I've heard of it; I'm not familiar with it.
Mr. Carter. You're not familiar with it.
Mr. Ryder, are you familiar with ``Project 2025''?
Mr. Ryder. I have never heard of it. I have never read it.
I--just on the news, when somebody mentions ``Project 2025.''
No idea what it is.
Mr. Carter. But----
Mr. Thompson. Can I interrupt, sir?
Mr. Carter. Just a second, please.
You never heard of it? You never heard of ``Project 2025''?
Mr. Ryder. No, I corrected myself. I said I've heard it on
the news, but I've never looked at anything from ``Project
2025,'' I've never read it, don't know nothing about it.
Mr. Carter. You know nothing about it.
Mr.--I'll come back to you, sir.
Mr. Chapman, do you not know anything about ``Project
2025'' either?
Sheriff Chapman. I have heard of it. I have never read it.
So I don't know what the details are in ``Project 2025.''
Mr. Carter. So you only know its title. You know none of
its alleged impacts or intents.
Sheriff Chapman. That is correct, just the title.
Mr. Carter. Wow.
Mr. Bier.
Mr. Bier. Oh, yes, I know it well.
Mr. Carter. Can you share with me the impacts that
``Project 2025,'' if imposed, would impact our ability to
secure our border and make it safer and do the things that we
all talk about?
To be clear, we're all concerned about fentanyl, we're all
concerned about the overrun border, we're all concerned about
illegal immigration. There's no issue that there isn't--there
are problems at the border.
But to somehow suggest that doing mass deportation without
the steps--as I mentioned earlier, you just can't do it; you
have to have relationship with the place you're sending them.
You have to identify that they belong in the place that you're
attempting to deport them to.
Can you, very quickly, in just a few seconds, tell me about
``Project 2025'' and as it relates to homeland security?
Mr. Bier. Yes, I mean, ``Project 2025'' is talking about
essentially obliterating our legal immigration system, shutting
it down; everything has a backlog, so we can't accept any new
applicants.
I mean, these are the types of things that are going to
result in chaos, with more illegal immigration. If you cut off
any way for people to come legally, then you're going to get
more illegal immigration. That's what ``Project 2025''
proposes.
Mr. Carter. As I close, it's amazing that these esteemed
gentlemen who are experts in this space have never heard of
``Project 2025.''
Mr. LaLota [presiding]. The gentleman's time----
Mr. Carter. I yield.
Mr. LaLota [continuing]. Has expired.
I now recognize the gentleman from Alabama, Mr. Strong, for
5 minutes of questioning.
Mr. Strong. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I want to thank those of you on our panel, those that serve
as law enforcement officers throughout this country. Your job
is hard enough as it is without massive numbers of illegal
aliens in your communities and criminal organizations targeting
you. Thank you for what you do.
Mr. Thompson, I want to discuss TDA specifically. In June
of this year, DHS officials stated there was already over 100
on-going immigration or criminal investigations linked to TDA.
Mr. Thompson, do you think the Federal Government should
follow Texas Governor Greg Abbott's lead to designate TDA as a
foreign terrorist organization in order to provide HSA and
other--I'm sorry--HSI, Homeland Security Investigations, and
other Federal law enforcement agencies with an increased
ability to combat these gangs' criminal operations?
Mr. Thompson. Sir, thank you for the question.
I think we all know that the designation of a terrorist
organization has statutory and legal ramifications. I strongly,
strongly endorse this Congress and the next to investigate how
to do so. It can be done. It's the will of you, the Congress,
that can affect that.
The answer to your question is yes.
Mr. Strong. Thank you.
Mr. Thompson, I want to move on to sanctuary cities. As you
know, the first Trump administration worked to crack down on
them by issuing an Executive Order barring grant money from
going to jurisdictions that prohibit law enforcement from
cooperating with ICE.
In stark contrast, the Biden-Harris administration has
supported and even incentivized sanctuary-city policies,
hampering ICE's ability to identify and remove violent
criminals from our communities.
Mr. Thompson, in your opinion, have sanctuary cities'
policies facilitated threats to law enforcement?
Mr. Thompson. Sadly, yes, they have, absolutely, put more
officers----
Mr. Strong. For the record, he has said, definitely, yes,
the Biden-Harris administration is working against law
enforcement.
I want to also--aside from removing sanctuary-city
incentives, what should the incoming Trump administration do to
support State and local law enforcement?
Mr. Thompson. Uh, how much time do I have?
Mr. Strong. Give us your best shot.
Mr. Thompson. I think it starts with the fundamental belief
that we are a Nation of laws and the rule of law. I think it
starts with the fundamental belief that borders are laws. There
are laws that allow people to come to this country legally.
They may be arcane. Congress can fix those. They may be inane,
and Congress can fix those. But at the nascent, at the base
level--at the base level, we either are or we are not a Nation
of laws, pure and simple.
My colleagues may have a different opinion on this. But
``mass deportation'' is a misnomer. That's not against the law.
Does that make it a good law? I can't decide. That's for you
all to decide.
But the facts remain. We either are or we are not a Nation
of laws. Coming to this country illegally is a--you are
breaking the law. Now, some will say, ``Oh, it's just a civil
penalty.'' It becomes a felony criminal act when you seek to do
it more than once.
We have the technical means; we have the economic means; we
must have the willpower to protect our borders, to allow
immigrants to come here legally, as my great-grandparents did.
Mr. Strong. We've got illegal aliens coming from--to our
country from 160 different countries. Our border is wide open.
I think the American people have had enough of it. January 20,
there's a new sheriff in town.
While I live in a State that welcomes the removal of gangs,
illegal aliens, there's nowhere in the Constitution that
mentions sanctuary cities.
Mr. Chairman, I yield back.
Mr. D'Esposito [presiding]. The gentleman yields.
I now recognize the gentleman from New York, Mr. Goldman,
for 5 minutes.
Mr. Goldman. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
It is quite shocking that we're having another hearing on
this same topic. We have certainly exhausted it. I think we've
probably had every single law enforcement official from Nassau
County before this subcommittee. I can't say I'm going to miss
that when the Chairman is not going to be with us next term.
But there's a lot that seems odd that we're not in any
disagreement about.
Mr. Thompson, I'm going to start with you. You just said
that we are a Nation of laws. You're familiar that there are
laws governing asylum, right?
Mr. Thompson. I am.
Mr. Goldman. OK. So, if the law says that if you come to
our border and declare asylum, that there is a process and laws
that governs that and that that is included in the Nation of
laws that we are, correct?
Mr. Thompson. Sir, with all due respect, the way it's being
implemented now by this administration has never been done
before. You cannot----
Mr. Goldman. But that's not----
Mr. Thompson [continuing]. Broadly----
Mr. Goldman. That's not my question, sir.
[Crosstalk.]
Mr. Goldman. Sir, hold on. I just don't have that much
time.
That's not my question. The point is that we are a Nation
of laws. If we want to fix our laws, there's only one body that
can do that--Congress.
So you're saying we need to fix our laws. I agree.
You point out in your testimony that there's a loophole
that allows migrants to come into our country and exploit our
system. You say, quote, ``Many of the immigration court
hearings are delayed by up to 11 years due to the lack of
immigration judges.''
That's correct. There's a backlog of 2 million cases.
Let me ask you something. Would an additional 100
immigration judges and $440 million to support them help
address that loophole that you identify?
Mr. Thompson. Statistically, yes.
Mr. Goldman. Well, that was in the bipartisan border
security bill that Donald Trump killed.
Let me ask you another question. If the asylum applications
were resolved within 1 year and there was no work authorization
granted to the applicant until there was an adjudication
granting asylum, would that help stem the pull of migrants
coming to the borders?
Mr. Thompson. I'm sorry, sir. I missed the first part of
your question. My hearing's a bit slow today.
Mr. Goldman. All right. Well, I'll just make the point: 75
to 80 percent of asylum applicants are ultimately denied.
Mr. Thompson. Correct.
Mr. Goldman. But because of this backlog and because our
law allows for an applicant to get work authorization while
they wait for an adjudication of their case----
Mr. Thompson. Correct.
Mr. Goldman [continuing]. Then that creates a pull. Because
75 to 80 percent is a significant number that are not eligible
for asylum.
So my question to you is that, if it were a 1-year
limitation and no work authorization given, don't you--do you
think that some of those 75 to 80 percent would not come to
this country?
Mr. Thompson. Some, yes.
Mr. Goldman. Right.
Mr. Thompson. May I just----
Mr. Goldman. Well, the bipartisan bill----
Mr. Thompson [continuing]. Expand upon that for just a
second, sir?
Mr. Goldman [continuing]. The bipartisan bill that Donald
Trump----
Mr. Thompson. Sir, may I just expand upon that? Because I
was intimately involved in that bill's negotiation----
Mr. Goldman. Well, hold on one sec. Hold on 1 second.
Mr. Thompson [continuing]. I, just for the record----
Mr. Goldman. I don't have that much time.
Mr. Thompson [continuing]. Just for the record----
Mr. Goldman. Sir, please. It's my time.
Mr. Thompson. You asked and I'm going to answer----
Mr. Goldman. It's my time, sir.
The bipartisan bill actually set a framework--a time frame
of 6 months, which I think is going to call into real question
due process.
But the point is that, of course, if we spent money on
revamping legislatively our asylum system and spent the money
that will be spent on mass deportations to actually get at the
root cause of the migration by spending that money on
immigration judges and on a system that can quickly evaluate
asylum claims, we won't have to have a witness here telling us
that fentanyl is a problem. We all know fentanyl is a problem.
In fact, we all know that the drug cartels control the border.
And----
Mr. Thompson. They do.
Mr. Goldman [continuing]. I think that----
Mr. Thompson. You're right.
Mr. Goldman [continuing]. Mr.--I don't have a question,
sir--Mr. Chapman, Sheriff Chapman, pointed that out in your
opening statement.
Sheriff Chapman, do you know how many gun stores are in
Mexico?
Sheriff Chapman. No, I do not.
Mr. Goldman. One. One.
Do you know what percentage of guns found in Mexico were
originated from the United States?
Sheriff Chapman. No, I do not.
Mr. Goldman. Seventy percent.
H.R. 2 does not discuss gun trafficking from the United
States to the cartels which allows them to control the border
and control the fentanyl traffic.
Mr. D'Esposito. The gentleman's time has expired.
Mr. Goldman. So, if we want solutions, we ought to look at
disarming our cartels--disarming the gun trade.
Mr. D'Esposito. The gentleman's time has expired.
Mr. Goldman. I hope my Republican colleagues will do that.
Mr. D'Esposito. Thank you, Mr. Goldman.
Commissioner Ryder, I'm sure Mr. Goldman means no absolute
disrespect to the people of Nassau County, as he appreciates
you keeping his summer home safe each year.
So, with that, I yield 5 minutes to my good friend from
Long Island, Mr. LaLota.
Mr. LaLota. Thank you, Mr. D'Esposito.
Mr. Thompson, do you want 30 seconds of my time to finish
your thoughts there?
Mr. Thompson. Just real quickly.
I want to make very, very clear: The Senate language you
are alluding to, sir, did not eliminate illegal border
crossings, period. It did not.
Mr. LaLota. Thank you, Mr. Thompson.
Chairman, the reckless open-border policies of the Biden-
Harris administration have thrown New York City and its
surrounding communities, like the ones I represent, into chaos,
leaving law enforcement to deal with the devastating
consequences of their failures.
Today's hearing is timely and necessary, given the on-going
challenges posed by the unbelievable number of migrants
crossing our Southwest Border and the transnational criminal
organizations exploiting these policies.
One of the most alarming threats is Tren de Aragua, a
violent transnational gang that has been making inroads into
New York City. Their brutal tactics--human trafficking,
extortion, drug smuggling--are fueled by the weak border
policies of this administration, and their presence within our
borders puts all of us at risk.
Policy makers here in Washington, from both sides of the
aisle, must not sit back and allow these dangerous criminal
organizations to expand into neighboring areas like Suffolk
County. These gangs not only undermine public safety but also
stretch the resources of our local law enforcement to the
breaking point. This crisis necessitates action.
When the new administration takes office, we must come
together immediately to crack down on these criminal
enterprises and fix the chaos at our Southern Border. It's not
just about securing the border; it's about protecting our
families, restoring safety, and enforcing the rule of law.
I look forward to hearing from our witnesses more today, as
we have this dialog, about what they've experienced on the
ground and how we can work together to make consequential and
lasting policy decisions.
Commissioner Ryder, welcome back to Washington, sir, and
thank you for joining us today and for your continued
commitment to protecting Long Island and our Nation.
Your testimony highlighted the increased strain on Nassau
County due to the migrant crisis. Commissioner, I was hoping
that you could spend a minute or so further expanding upon that
and telling us how the growing presence of the transnational
criminal organizations like Tren de Aragua have impacted your
department's operations.
Mr. Ryder. So the unvetted migrants that are in some of the
housing that's given by New York City--example, there in the
airport at JFK, there's a tent that houses over 400 migrants in
it. They're at the Creedmoor, the old psych center on the
Queens border of Nassau County where they're also housing the
migrants. They're in what we call the Floral Park Hotel, which
is on the city side of those areas.
We got numerous complaints of quality of life--outside
urinating, drunk and disorderly. Then it got worse when it got
into violence with those that are joining those gangs that are
now trickling over into Nassau County and strengthening the
gangs that we took down back in 2017 when then-President Trump
came to Nassau County over the deaths of numerous people that
were murdered by the MS-13 gangs. All of those individuals were
migrants that were either undocumented or illegal in this
country at the time.
Those attempts by law enforcement to shut them down were
successful. We started to bring it down. We're seeing that
uptick again because of what's coming over the border. It's a
porous border. If you don't check those that are coming
through, how are we going to defend ourselves against them?
That's the challenge with law enforcement. Law enforcement
looks at a community, addresses a community, and is respectful
and fair to that community. But then all of a sudden--inside
that, 90 percent of crime is done by 10 percent of that
population.
Mr. LaLota. Thank you.
Mr. Ryder. All of the sudden, that 10 percent gets bigger.
Mr. LaLota. Thanks, Commissioner.
We know where some of this crime is coming from--most of
this crime is coming from. It's coming from the Five Boroughs.
It's coming east, through Nassau County. I appreciate your
leadership in holding it--holding the line in Nassau County and
stopping some of those folks from coming further east.
Mr. Ryder. Thank you, sir.
Mr. LaLota. I want to, with the little time that I have
remaining, just say a few words about my best friend in
Congress, Congressman Anthony D'Esposito, who's chairing his
last meeting of this Congress. The clerk may want to distribute
some tissues as I go through this.
Not only is D'Espo my best friend here, he's--no doubt
about it, he's the best damn Chairman this subcommittee has
ever had. He's a retired NYPD detective who brought to this
committee and Congress as a whole unparalleled experience,
grit, and dedication to public service in every aspect of his
work here in Washington.
He's informed, of course, by 17 years of service in the
NYPD, retiring with the rank of detective. He knows what it
takes to protect our communities, respond to emergencies, and
ensure the safety and security of all Americans.
Under D'Espo's leadership, this subcommittee has tackled
some of the most important and pressing moments of our Nation's
time. The border crisis is our Nation's most important crisis
of the time. He's also helped improve disaster preparedness and
responses, to advanced critical technology to keep our first
responders and communities safe.
D'Espo never wavered in his commitment to bipartisan
solutions, always putting the safety of our communities and
country before his own party.
I don't think anyone's going to miss D'Espo as much as I
am, but this place is going to lose a phenomenal human,
colleague, and Representative.
Thank you, my friend, Anthony, for your leadership and
friendship. I look forward to seeing what the future has in
store for you. Love you, man.
Mr. D'Esposito. Thank you.
Mr. LaLota. I yield back.
Mr. D'Esposito. The gentleman yields.
I now recognize the gentleman from California, Mr. Correa.
Mr. Correa. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I also want to wish Mr. D'Esposito success.
Mr. D'Esposito. Thank you.
Mr. Correa. Your career--it's been an honor to serve with
you, sir. Your perspective has been a good one for us here in
Congress.
Mr. D'Esposito. Thank you very much.
Mr. Correa. I know you're not done. I just think you're
turning a chapter, a new chapter in life. So----
Mr. D'Esposito. Thank you.
Mr. Correa [continuing]. The best of luck to you, sir.
Mr. D'Esposito. Thank you very much.
Mr. Correa. Gentlemen, I want to welcome you today to being
part of the legislative process, so to speak.
You had a minute to speak a little while ago, and so I
think what all of us have in common, we're all Americans
looking for what's best for this country. That we can all agree
on.
We are a Nation of laws, absolutely. Laws always change to
fit what's best for this country.
All of our ancestors came to this country as immigrants. A
lot of them came when the door was essentially open, when you
could come, work, become an American. I know my grandfather
came and helped build the railroads in western United States
100, 100-years-ago-plus. Today, there's no door to get into
this country. I've had constituents living in my district 20,
30 years--clean records, not a DUI--can't figure out that front
door.
Issues: Our immigration laws need to be fixed.
What do we do with deported veterans? I have a bunch of
veterans that served this great country, green-card holders
serving the country--Afghanistan, Iraq--honorably discharged,
come back to this country, get in a barroom fight, they're
deported. They can come back to the country once they die
because they've earned the right to be buried in our national
cemeteries.
What do we do about undocumented farm workers, farm workers
with no documents? Something like 55 to 60 percent of our farm
workers that feed us, no documents.
What do we do with our manufacturing sector in this
economy? We're talking about near-shoring, bringing those jobs
back from China. Who do you think is going to be at those
factories?
Poultry plants in the South. You had a big--2019, you had a
massive raid; 650 workers picked up, out. The whole economy
there came to a standstill.
We need to calibrate.
Let me be clear: We're all for law and order. We're all for
safe communities.
Sheriff Barnes, Mr. Thompson, my Sheriff Barnes back home,
great man. I'll tell you what we've been doing in Orange County
for 20 years: create a system where crimes are reported.
About 15 years ago, we discovered a man trying to rape a
woman, an undocumented woman--an American citizen raping an
undocumented woman. Found out 20-plus women, all undocumented,
had been raped by this guy. Those are the ones that stepped up
and said, ``I got raped.'' So we worked on a system in Orange
County to make sure these undocumented taxpayers stepped up and
reported crimes.
I've got a minute-and-a-half, so let me get to my question
here.
President Trump's talking about mass deportations. Steve
Miller is talking about pulling 11,000 guns and badges to help
with the mass deportations. How is that going to help our
streets when it comes to Tren de Aragua, MS-13, the Romanian
gangs in Orange County, Russian gangs? Pulling 11,000 HSI, DEA,
ATF, FBI agents, how's that going to keep our streets safe?
Mr. Thompson--and I only have 45 seconds--and I'm going to
ask the same question to each one of you--I'll give you 5
seconds, sir.
Mr. Thompson. Or I could do that in about 4 hours, but I'll
try in 42 seconds.
Mr. Correa. Yes, sir.
Mr. Thompson. First of all, Mr. Correa, I have to tell you
how much respect I have for you as a Member. You are trying to
find that middle road.
My answer is pretty--pretty simple. Laws are written by men
and women. They don't have to be specific, but they can be, and
they should be.
Immigration's complex. We're a Nation of 330-some-million
people. How did we get that way? By immigration.
Mr. Correa. Yes.
Mr. Thompson. That's a fact. It's just--we need immigrants
in this country.
Mr. Correa. I'm running out of time. I've got 7 seconds.
Give me your answer.
Mr. Thompson. Write--but let me just--write the exclusions
and permissions into the law.
Mr. Correa. Mr. Ryder--Mr. Chair, may I? Thank you.
Quick 10-second answer.
Mr. Ryder. It is complicated, but I believe the intent is
going to go after the most severe and most illegal and crime--
--
Mr. Correa. I would say go after the criminals, right?
Mr. Ryder. Absolutely.
Mr. Correa. Yes. Thank you.
Mr. Chapman, Sheriff Chapman, beautiful stars, by the way.
Sheriff Chapman. First of all----
Mr. Correa. Love that.
Sheriff Chapman [continuing]. I think we need to stop the
bleeding at the border. I mean, these open borders are killing
us, and I think we've got to stop the bleeding.
The second thing is----
Mr. Correa. Mr. Bier--go ahead.
Sheriff Chapman [continuing]. Deport criminal aliens first.
Mr. Bier. Yes, there are 350,000 witnesses and victims of
crimes who are working with law enforcement that are in a
backlog, called the U visa backlog, that would get them legal
status to stay in this country. We need to do something about
that backlog.
Mr. Correa. Mr. Thompson is agreeing with you. But, Mr.
Chairman, I'm running out of time--I'm out of time.
Thank you very much, gentlemen, for your information. It's
a very complex issue. That's our job, to try to make it a
little less complex.
Thank you very much.
Mr. D'Esposito. The gentleman yields.
I want to thank the witnesses not only for being here today
but for your commitment to keeping your communities and this
great Nation safe.
I also want to thank all the Members of this committee on
both sides of the aisle for working together over the 118th
Congress to do great things in this subcommittee. I think that
most of the work that we've done has been in a bipartisan
fashion. We've passed some great bills out of this committee.
I want to thank my good friend and Ranking Member for all
of the work that we've done together.
The Members of the subcommittee may have some additional
questions for the witnesses, and we would ask that the
witnesses respond to these in writing.
I also want to quickly thank the staff of the Homeland
Security Committee for the great job that they do each and
every day. It does not go unnoticed. And, of course, the
leadership of Chairman Green.
Pursuant to committee rule VII(D), the hearing record will
be held open for 10 days.
Without objection, this subcommittee stands adjourned.
[Whereupon, at 11:25 a.m., the subcommittee was adjourned.]
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