[House Hearing, 118 Congress]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]
BEYOND THE BORDER: TERRORISM AND HOME-
LAND SECURITY CONSEQUENCES OF ILLEGAL
IMMIGRATION
=======================================================================
JOINT HEARING
BEFORE THE
SUBCOMMITTEE ON
COUNTERTERRORISM,
LAW ENFORCEMENT,
AND INTELLIGENCE
AND THE
SUBCOMMITTEE ON
BORDER SECURITY AND ENFORCEMENT
OF THE
COMMITTEE ON HOMELAND SECURITY
HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
ONE HUNDRED EIGHTEENTH CONGRESS
SECOND SESSION
__________
SEPTEMBER 19, 2024
__________
Serial No. 118-79
__________
Printed for the use of the Committee on Homeland Security
[GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Available via the World Wide Web: http://www.govinfo.gov/
__________
U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE
59-910 PDF WASHINGTON : 2025
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COMMITTEE ON HOMELAND SECURITY
Mark E. Green, MD, Tennessee, Chairman
Michael T. McCaul, Texas Bennie G. Thompson, Mississippi,
Clay Higgins, Louisiana Ranking Member
Michael Guest, Mississippi Eric Swalwell, California
Dan Bishop, North Carolina J. Luis Correa, California
Carlos A. Gimenez, Florida Troy A. Carter, Louisiana
August Pfluger, Texas Shri Thanedar, Michigan
Andrew R. Garbarino, New York Seth Magaziner, Rhode Island
Marjorie Taylor Greene, Georgia Glenn Ivey, Maryland
Tony Gonzales, Texas Daniel S. Goldman, New York
Nick LaLota, New York Robert Garcia, California
Mike Ezell, Mississippi Delia C. Ramirez, Illinois
Anthony D'Esposito, New York Robert Menendez, New Jersey
Laurel M. Lee, Florida Thomas R. Suozzi, New York
Morgan Luttrell, Texas Timothy M. Kennedy, New York
Dale W. Strong, Alabama Yvette D. Clarke, New York
Josh Brecheen, Oklahoma
Elijah Crane, Arizona
Stephen Siao, Staff Director
Hope Goins, Minority Staff Director
Sean Corcoran, Chief Clerk
------
SUBCOMMITTEE ON COUNTERTERRORISM, LAW ENFORCEMENT, AND INTELLIGENCE
August Pfluger, Texas, Chairman
Dan Bishop, North Carolina Seth Magaziner, Rhode Island,
Tony Gonzales, Texas Ranking Member
Anthony D'Esposito, New York J. Luis Correa, California
Elijah Crane, Arizona Daniel S. Goldman, New York
Mark E. Green, MD, Tennessee (ex Thomas R. Suozzi, New York
officio) Bennie G. Thompson, Mississippi
(ex officio)
Michael Koren, Subcommittee Staff Director
Brittany Carr, Minority Subcommittee Staff Director
------
SUBCOMMITTEE ON BORDER SECURITY AND ENFORCEMENT
Clay Higgins, Louisiana, Chairman
Michael Guest, Mississippi J. Luis Correa, California,
Marjorie Taylor Greene, Georgia Ranking Member
Tony Gonzales, Texas Robert Garcia, California
Morgan Luttrell, Texas Delia C. Ramirez, Illinois
Josh Brecheen, Oklahoma Thomas R. Suozzi, New York
Mark E. Green, MD, Tennessee (ex Bennie G. Thompson, Mississippi
officio) (ex officio)
Natasha Eby, Subcommittee Staff Director
Brieana Marticorena, Minority Subcommittee Staff Director
C O N T E N T S
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Page
Statements
The Honorable August Pfluger, a Representative in Congress From
the State of Texas, and Chairman, Subcommittee on
Counterterrorism, Law Enforcement, and Intelligence:
Oral Statement................................................. 1
Prepared Statement............................................. 2
The Honorable Seth Magaziner, a Representative in Congress From
the State of Rhode Island, and Ranking Member, Subcommittee on
Counterterrorism, Law Enforcement, and Intelligence:
Oral Statement................................................. 3
Prepared Statement............................................. 4
The Honorable Clay Higgins, a Representative in Congress From the
State of Louisiana, and Chairman, Subcommittee on Border
Security and Enforcement:
Oral Statement................................................. 5
Prepared Statement............................................. 6
The Honorable J. Luis Correa, a Representative in Congress From
the State of California, and Ranking Member, Subcommittee on
Border Security and Enforcement:
Oral Statement................................................. 7
Prepared Statement............................................. 8
The Honorable Bennie G. Thompson, a Representative in Congress
From the State of Mississippi, and Ranking Member, Committee on
Homeland Security:
Prepared Statement............................................. 10
Witnesses
Ms. Kelly Brown, DBA, Private Citizen:
Oral Statement................................................. 11
Prepared Statement............................................. 13
Mr. Timothy J. Healy, Private Citizen:
Oral Statement................................................. 15
Prepared Statement............................................. 17
Mr. Alex Nowrasteh, Vice President, Economic and Social Policy
Studies, CATO Institute:
Oral Statement................................................. 20
Prepared Statement............................................. 21
BEYOND THE BORDER: TERRORISM AND HOMELAND SECURITY CONSEQUENCES OF
ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION
----------
Thursday, September 19, 2024
U.S. House of Representatives,
Committee on Homeland Security,
Subcommittee on Counterterrorism, Law
Enforcement, and Intelligence, and the
Subcommittee on Border Security and
Enforcement,
Washington, DC.
The subcommittees met, pursuant to notice, at 10:05 a.m.,
in room 310, Cannon House Office building, Hon. August Pfluger
(Chairman of the subcommittee) presiding.
Present: Representatives Pfluger, Higgins, Gonzales, Taylor
Greene, D'Esposito, Luttrell, Crane, Brecheen, Magaziner,
Correa, Goldman, Garcia, Suozzi, and Ramirez.
Mr. Pfluger. Subcommittee on Counterterrorism and Law
Enforcement will come to order. The purpose of this hearing is
to allow Members to examine the travel patterns of individuals
linked to foreign terrorist organizations and how these
individuals make their way to our Nation's borders. I now
recognize myself for an opening statement.
Good morning and welcome to this joint hearing. It is no
secret that our Nation is in the midst of a dire crisis at our
Nation's borders. Over the last 4 years, a record number of
migrants from across the globe have descended on our borders
and created security challenges our Nation has never
experienced.
Specifically, border encounters in the Biden administration
have surpassed 10.1 million illegal aliens encountered
nationwide with over 8.2 million encountered along the
Southwest Border. These are only the number of individuals
encountered at one of our borders. Experts estimate that nearly
2 million individuals have evaded arrest by CBP officials and
are known to be gotaways.
The most glaring statistic that alarms me and this
subcommittee, the two subcommittees that are here, is that 382
individuals whose names appear on the terror watch list were
stopped trying to cross the U.S.-Mexico border illegally
between ports of entry from fiscal year 2021 to date. This is
compared to the 11 individuals apprehended between 2017 and
2020. Eleven. If we know that nearly 2 million individuals are
considered gotaways, how many of these individuals also appear
on the terror watch list?
We are not only discussing and debating this issue here at
home. In March I led a bipartisan Congressional delegation trip
to North Africa and Middle East. We heard from a variety of our
foreign partners and entities within the U.S. Government on
this topic.
One issue that alarmed all of us on this trip was the
nature in which foreign terrorist networks are utilizing
criminal smuggling networks to help facilitate their travel
from the Middle East and central Asia to the Western
Hemisphere. These elaborate smuggling operations are utilizing
both commercial and private means to coordinate this travel.
This smuggling network was also highlighted in Director
Wray's testimony during the Senate Intelligence Committee's
annual worldwide threats assessment hearing. Specifically he
stated, ``there is a particular network where some of the
overseas facilitators of the smuggling network have ISIS ties
that we are very concerned about and that we have been spending
an enormous amount of time with our partners to investigate''.
His acknowledgement of this threat shows the gravity and
seriousness of the threat, which is why we are here today.
Today's hearing will examine irregular migration trends and the
travel patterns that have been utilized by individuals who
appear on the terror watch list. Initially we requested the
Department of Homeland Security to participate in today's
conversation, but our requests were rejected by the Department.
For a department that was born out of the aftermath of 9/
11, it is deeply disturbing that they will not come to this
committee to discuss terror threats to the United States and
how this administration's policies have created the threat
environment that every American is now living under.
I do not know why DHS has refused to participate today and
provide answers to the American public. However, my best guess
is that the Biden-Harris administration is attempting to hide
from the public and not take accountability for their policy
failures. I have full faith that the American people are
smarter than this and that accountability for this
administration's failures will be upheld.
Thankfully, we do have a distinguished panel here today
that can share their expertise and experiences in their
respective roles. I know that they will provide valuable
testimony to help answer the questions that the Biden-Harris
administration refuses to answer.
With that, I yield back.
[The statement of Chairman Pfluger follows:]
Statement of Chairman August Pfluger
September 19, 2024
Good afternoon, and welcome to this joint hearing.
It is no secret our Nation is in the midst of a dire crisis at our
Nation's borders.
Over the last 4 years, a record number of migrants from across the
globe have descended on our borders and have created security
challenges our Nation has never experienced.
Specifically, border encounters under the Biden administration has
surpassed 10.1 million aliens encountered nationwide, with over 8.2
million encountered along the Southwest Border.
These are only the number of individuals encountered at one of our
borders.
Experts estimate that nearly 2 million individuals have evaded
arrest by CBP officials and are known to be ``gotaways.''
The most glaring statistic that alarms me the most is the 382
individuals whose names appear on the terrorist watch list were stopped
trying to cross the U.S.-Mexico border illegally between ports of entry
from fiscal year 2021 to fiscal year 2024 year-to-date.
This is compared to the 11 individuals apprehended from fiscal year
2017-fiscal year 2020.
If we know that nearly 2 million individuals are considered
``gotaways,'' how many of these individuals also appear on the terror
watch list?
We are not only discussing and debating this issue here at home.
In March, I led a bipartisan Congressional delegation trip to north
Africa and the Middle East.
We heard from a variety of our foreign partners and entities within
the United States Government on this topic.
One issue that alarmed all of us on this trip was the nature in
which foreign terrorist networks are utilizing criminal smuggling
networks to help facilitate their travel from the Middle East and
Central Asia to the Western Hemisphere.
These elaborate smuggling operations are utilizing both commercial
and private means to coordinate this travel.
This smuggling network was also highlighted in Director Wray's
testimony during the Senate Intelligence Committee's annual Worldwide
Threats Assessment hearing.
Specifically, he stated that ``there is a particular network where
some of the overseas facilitators of the smuggling network have ISIS
ties that we're very concerned about, and that we've been spending an
enormous amount of effort with our partners to investigate.''
His acknowledgment of this threat shows the gravity and seriousness
of this threat, which is why we are here today.
Today's hearing will examine irregular migration trends and the
travel patterns that have been utilized by individuals who appear on
the terror watch list.
Initially, we requested the Department of Homeland Security to
participate in today's conversation, but our requests were rejected.
For a department that was born out of the aftermath of 9/11, it is
deeply disturbing that they will not come to discuss terror threats to
the United States and how this administration's policies have created
the threat environment every American is living under.
I do not know why DHS has refused to participate today and provide
answers to the American people.
However, my best guess is that the Biden-Harris administration is
attempting to hide from the public and not take accountability for
their policy failures.
I have full faith that the American people are smarter than this
and accountability for this administration's failures will be upheld.
Thankfully, we have a distinguished panel today that can share
their expertise and experiences in their respective roles.
I know they will provide valuable testimony to help answer the
questions that the Biden-Harris administration refuses to answer.
With that, I yield.
Mr. Pfluger. I would now like to recognize the Ranking
Member of the Counterterrorism, Law Enforcement, Intelligence
subcommittee, the gentleman from Rhode Island, Mr. Magaziner,
for his opening statement.
Mr. Magaziner. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
We have real challenges at the border and real challenges
facing our country when it comes to meeting the threat of
terrorism. Unfortunately, too many of my Republican colleagues
have chosen to put politics over securing our border and
protecting the American people.
When the Biden administration worked with Senate
Republicans and Senate Democrats to reach a bipartisan solution
to secure the Southern Border, unfortunately, too many of my
Republican colleagues chose to kill that deal because President
Trump made it clear directly to Members of the Congressional
Republican leadership and through his proxies in the media that
he felt it would be better for him politically if the problem
went unsolved.
The bipartisan border agreement negotiated between the
Senate Republicans, Senate Democrats, and the Biden-Harris
administration included new Presidential emergency authority to
shut down the border when it became overwhelmed. It would have
raised the standard for migrants to qualify for asylum and
empower border officials to rapidly turn away those who failed
to meet that standard.
It would have included funding for more than 1,500 new
Customs and Border Protection personnel, an additional 4,300
asylum officers to make the asylum process faster and fairer
and would have increased the number of detention beds to
alleviate those facilities that are currently over capacity.
It is for this reason that the union that represents more
than 18,000 Border Patrol officers endorsed the President's
plan and it is why it is so unfortunate that too many of my
colleagues on the other side chose to put Donald Trump's
political ambitions ahead of securing the border and keeping
the American people safe.
The American people are clear about what they want. They
want us to put bipartisan partnership over politics. They want
us to work together to solve our challenges at the border and
to keep the American people safe in a collaborative bipartisan
basis and to reject the hyper partisanship that has been the
hallmark of the 118th Congress.
My hope is that today's hearing will be a step in the right
direction toward bipartisanship, that we can renew our progress
working together to secure the border and reject Donald Trump's
hyper partisanship where he puts himself time and time again
over the best interests of the American people.
I will also note for the record that the Department of
Homeland Security did agree to come and address these
committees on this topic, but asked to do it in a secure
setting given the sensitive nature of the subject matter, and
that request was rejected.
With that, I will yield back.
[The statement of Ranking Member Magaziner follows:]
Statement of Ranking Member Seth Magaziner
September 19, 2024
We have had repeated hearings this Congress on the Southern Border,
but despite our attention to these problems, my Republican colleagues
have shown no interest in real solutions. While the Biden-Harris
administration has taken steps to make the border and homeland safer,
House Republicans have tried to obstruct them every step of the way.
Republicans, including many of my colleagues across the dais,
rejected even the possibility of considering the bipartisan border deal
negotiated in the Senate between conservatives and the Biden-Harris
administration.
Instead of taking action to move the bipartisan Senate border
deal--the toughest border proposal in a generation--my Republican
colleagues prioritized former President Trump's demands to sabotage the
deal. Former President Trump and Republicans would rather have a
problem to campaign on than solve the real issues we face at the
border. Republicans chose their loyalty to one man--Donald Trump--over
securing our borders.
The bipartisan border deal was a common-sense border security bill,
signed off on by both Senate Republican and Democratic leaders, and the
White House. When speaking about the bill, the lead Republican
negotiator, Senator James Lankford, said it will be ``by far, the most
conservative border security bill in 4 decades.''
However, Republicans rejected this border security bill that would
have made the border more orderly, secure, fair and humane. It
contained new Presidential emergency authority to shut down the border
when it became overwhelmed. It would have raised the standard for
migrants to qualify for asylum and empowered border officials to
rapidly turn away those who failed to meet that standard.
The bill would have also included funding for the border wall, more
than 1,500 new Customs and Border Protection personnel, an additional
4,300 Asylum Officers to make the asylum process faster and fairer, and
it would have increased the number of detention beds to alleviate
detention facilities that are currently over capacity.
As we hear from the witnesses today, I encourage my colleagues
across the aisle to listen thoughtfully to what each person has to say,
and to abandon partisanship to actually help fix the situation at our
border.
Mr. Pfluger. The gentleman yields. The Chair now recognizes
the Chairman of the Border Security Enforcement--and
Enforcement subcommittee, the gentleman from Louisiana, Mr.
Higgins.
Mr. Higgins. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I would like to thank our witnesses for being here today.
This hearing has been rescheduled a few different times. For
that, I am appreciative for your kindness and your
accommodation. We appreciate your participation and look
forward to receiving your testimony.
The purpose of today's hearing is to examine the rise in
illegal immigration from regions outside of the Western
Hemisphere. We will assess the serious damage caused by the
Biden-Harris open border policies which have a direct impact on
the national security of the United States. We will hear expert
insights into the connection between individuals on the terror
watch list and special-interest aliens migrating illegally to
the United States at record levels.
We will examine the national security consequences,
including increased threat of exposure added within our borders
stemming from these illegal migration trends. Finally, we will
discuss potential legislative and policy measures necessary to
strengthen border security and address national security
concerns.
Fulfilling the committee's important oversight
responsibilities is what we are here to accomplish and to
remedy DHS's failures is what we envision. The Biden-Harris
administration self-inflicted border crisis has resulted in
record-breaking illegal immigration, and as a result, the
country is facing an unprecedented internal threat, a threat to
the homeland from within the homeland. That is why we are here
today.
By ending the effective Trump-era policies and programs
that protected us and secured our border, the Biden-Harris
administration has seemingly intentionally left us vulnerable
to potential attacks from terrorists and criminals who are
freely moving around our communities. According to U.S. Customs
and Border Protection, since fiscal year 2021, 382 aliens on a
terror watch list have been caught illegally crashing our
southwest borders.
My sources report that they estimate over 2,000 have
actually crossed into our country. At least 99 illegal aliens
on the watch list were released into the United States by DHS
between fiscal years 2021 and 2023. These are the numbers that
are acknowledged that we know of by DHS.
That is not all. According to many media reports, the
Department of Homeland Security has identified over 400 illegal
aliens from central Asian countries and elsewhere who crossed
into the United States via an ISIS-affiliated human smuggling
network. We have to get some of this data from open media
sources, because the DHS obstructs our inquiries. They stand in
the way in many cases again and again from this committee's
legitimate oversight authority to ask them about what is going
on.
Eight individuals from Tajikistan were arrested on
immigration charges in the United States following the
discovery of ties to terrorism. These 8 suspected terrorists
waived a full CBP and fully entered the United States without
any issue. In fact, at least one of these individuals used the
CBP One app to enter the country. Lately it seems terrorists
like this are almost daily, yet the Biden-Harris administration
continues to make it easy for unguarded illegal immigrants to
cross our border and live and work in the United States across
every community and every sovereign State. This is what we are
dealing with.
How many more suspected terrorists are or actual terrorists
are part of the nearly 2 million known got-aways that are most
likely living in your community? No one knows. I pray we don't
find out the hard way.
Mr. Chairman, thank you for this hearing.
I yield.
[The prepared statement of Chairman Higgins follows:]
Statement of Chairman Clay Higgins
September 19, 2024
Thank you, Chairman Pfluger.
I would like to thank our witnesses for being here today. This
hearing has been rescheduled a few different times, and for that we
apologize. We appreciate your participation, and we look forward to
receiving your testimony.
This purpose of today's hearing is to examine the rise in migration
from regions outside the Western Hemisphere.
We will assess the serious damage caused by the Biden-Harris open-
border policies, which have a direct impact on the national security of
the United States.
We will hear expert insights into the connection between
individuals on the terrorist watch list and special-interest aliens
migrating to the United States at record levels.
We will examine the national security consequences, including
increased threat exposure, at and within our borders stemming from
these trends.
Finally, we will discuss potential legislative and policy measures
necessary to strengthen border security and address national security
concerns, fulfilling the committee's important oversight
responsibilities and to remedy DHS's failures.
The Biden-Harris administration's self-inflicted border crisis has
resulted in record-breaking illegal immigration, and as a result, the
country is facing an unprecedented internal threat. A threat to the
homeland from within the homeland. That is why we are here today.
By ending effective Trump-era policies and programs that protected
us, the Biden-Harris administration has intentionally left us
vulnerable to potential attacks from terrorists and criminals who are
freely moving around our communities.
According to U.S. Customs and Border Protection, since fiscal year
2021, 382 aliens on the terrorist watch list have been caught illegally
crossing our Southwest Border, and at least 99 illegal aliens on the
watch list were released into the United States by DHS between fiscal
years 2021 and 2023.
And that's not all. According to media reports, the Department of
Homeland Security has identified over 400 illegal aliens from Central
Asian countries and elsewhere who crossed into the United States via an
ISIS-affiliated human smuggling network.
Eight individuals from Tajikistan were arrested on immigration
charges in the United States following the discovery of potential ties
to terrorism. These 8 suspected terrorists were able to fool CBP and
freely enter the United States without any issue. In fact, at least one
of these individuals used the disgraceful CBP One app to enter the
country.
Lately, it seems stories like these are almost a daily occurrence,
yet the Biden-Harris administration continues to make it easy for
unvetted illegal immigrants to cross our border, and live and work in
the United States.
How many more bad actors or suspected terrorists are a part of the
nearly 2 million known ``gotaways'' who are most likely living in your
home town? No one knows. I pray we don't find out the hard way.
With that, I yield back and look forward to hearing from our
witnesses.
Mr. Pfluger. Gentleman yields. The Chair now recognizes the
Ranking Member of the Border Security Enforcement committee,
the gentleman from California, Mr. Correa, for his opening
statement.
Mr. Correa. Thank you, Mr. Pfluger, and I welcome our
witnesses here today for this most important hearing. Let me
take a moment, though, to condemn the assassination attempt, 2
now, on former President Trump. Clearly, there is no room for
political violence in our democracy. As a Member of the
bipartisan House Task Force on the Attempted Assassination of
Former President Trump, I am committed to work with my
colleagues on both sides of the aisle to make sure we get to
the bottom of what went wrong and to develop solutions to make
sure that none of our Presidential candidates are in harm's
way. We want to make sure the voters of America choose who the
next President is and not an assassin's bullet.
Now let's talk about today's hearing, the topic which is
terrorism. I take terrorism, the threat, seriously. I remember
all too well
9/11, and that is why the Department of Homeland Security was
created and why this committee was created as well. We all care
deeply about making sure that similar attacks on our soil do
not repeat themselves. But to stop these attacks, we start with
the facts.
The word terrorism is thrown around a lot, so it is
important to define what is terrorism. Terrorism involves a
threat of use of violence by non-state actors to achieve
political, economic, religious, or social goals. Within this
understanding, the data shows that most terrorist activity is
conducted by United States citizens and not immigrants. Let me
repeat. Most terrorist activity conducted in the United States
is by U.S. citizens.
In fact, a study by the Cato Institute found that from 1975
to the year 2022, the number of people murdered or injured by
terrorist attacks on U.S. soil by foreign-born immigrants,
zero. Let me repeat. Study by the Cato Institute found that
from 1975 to 2022, the number of people murdered or injured by
terrorist attacks on U.S. soil by foreign-born undocumented
immigrants was zero.
However, DHS and FBI regularly tell us that one of the
greatest terrorism threats we have is domestic terrorism.
Domestic terrorism. Sadly, we can highlight far too many cases
of domestic terrorism, radical and ethically-motivated
extremism that caused death and injury in this country.
Just this past week we have seen at least 33--33 bomb
threats that have shut down schools in Springfield, Ohio.
Elementary schools were evacuated again earlier this week. The
Ohio State Highway Patrol has been deployed to monitor these
schools. This has been fueled by our former President spreading
baseless rumors about migrants eating much-loved pets in those
communities. Fortunately, there have not been any injuries yet,
but the danger is real. Fear-mongering for political purposes
has real consequences. Yet we have not had one hearing in this
committee during this entire Congress to address domestic
violence or extremism.
Mr. Chairman, Members, we are not minimizing the threat of
terrorism. It is real and it requires our focus. But clearly we
need to defend our citizens, our taxpayers from all terrorist
attacks that would harm our citizens. Yes, Mr. Chair, we have a
challenge at the Southern Border, and as I have said before,
this is not just a U.S. problem. This is a we problem of a
global challenge. Right now we are essentially witnessing the
largest mass movement of people this world has ever seen, and
clearly they are potential threats to our national security and
we must take action to prevent any of these possible threats
from becoming real or materialized.
Here in this committee General John Kelly, former Secretary
of Homeland Security and the former chief of staff to former
President Trump would say, and I will paraphrase him, homeland
security does not start or end at the border, and if a threat
reaches our borders, then we are too late. We must exercise our
collaboration with our global partners to stop the threats from
coming close to our border. Our homeland experts have
continuously said that our borders should not be our first line
of defense.
I am proud that we have made progress on anti-terrorism
measures. Some of these partnerships have actually yielded
positive results. Since Biden's Executive Order took effect in
June, temporary suspending entry of non-citizens across the
Southern Border, migrant encounters with the Border Patrol have
dropped 55 percent, reducing the threat of bad actors from
entering into this country.
But all of us know there is so much more to be done. We
need more resources to deal with the situation at the border,
address the reprocess of migration, and stop individuals who
pose a threat to our national security from entering our
country. I call on my colleagues, both Democrats and
Republicans, let's work across the aisle, hopefully with the
Senate as well, to expand legal pathways to come to the United
States so CBP can focus their attention on the real threats we
have at the border. We do have the need for additional
resources, not less.
Let me thank our witnesses for being here today. I look
forward to hearing your testimony regarding the threats at the
border and opportunities that we may have to strengthen our
national security.
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair, and I yield.
[The statement of Ranking Member Correa follows:]
Statement of Ranking Member J. Luis Correa
September 19, 2024
I first want to take a moment and condemn the attempted
assassination of former President Trump. There is no room for political
violence in our democracy. As a Member of the bipartisan House Task
Force on the Attempted Assassination for Former President Trump, I am
committed to working with my colleagues on both sides of the aisle to
get to the bottom of what occurred and develop solutions to prevent
this from happening to any of our Presidential candidates. Again, there
is no room for political violence in our democracy.
And now on to today's hearing topic. We must take the threat of
terrorism seriously. The heinous terrorist attack of 9/11 is why the
Department of Homeland Security was created, and ultimately why this
committee was created. We all care deeply about preventing a similar
terrorist attack from occurring on our soil, which is one of the
reasons I serve on this committee.
We were reminded by the horrific October 7 attack by Hamas in
Israel that terrorist organizations remain determined to attack us and
our allies, no matter how sophisticated our intelligence and material
capabilities may be.
To prevent future attacks, we must start with the facts. The word
terrorism is thrown around a lot to fearmonger, so it's important we
understand what defines terrorism. Terrorism involves the threat or use
of violence by non-state actors to achieve political, economic,
religious, or social goals.
With this understanding, the data shows that most terrorist
activity is conducted by U.S. citizens, not immigrants. Let me repeat:
most terrorist activity is conducted by U.S. citizens.
In fact, a study by the Cato Institute found that, from 1975 to
2022, the number of people murdered or injured by terrorist attacks on
U.S. soil by foreign-born, illegal immigrants was zero. Again, zero
Americans have been injured or killed by terrorist attacks perpetrated
by undocumented immigrants who entered through the Southwest Border.
However, DHS and the FBI regularly tell us that one of the greatest
terrorism threats to our homeland is domestic terrorism. Sadly, we can
highlight far too many instances of domestic terrorism and racially and
ethnically motivated violent extremism that caused death and injuries
in this country.
Just this past week, we've seen at least 33 bomb threats shut down
schools in Springfield, Ohio. Elementary schools were evacuated--
again--early this week. The Ohio State Highway Patrol has been deployed
to monitor schools. This has been fueled by the former President, and
some Members across the aisle, spreading baseless rumors about migrants
eating much-loved pets in the community.
Fortunately, there have not been any injuries yet. But the danger
is real. Fearmongering for political purposes has very real
consequences right now.
Yet, we have not had one hearing in this committee during this
entire Congress to address domestic violence or extremism. So, we are
not minimizing the threat of terrorism. It is real and requires our
focus. But we clearly need to defend against ALL terrorist threats that
would harm Americans, foreign and domestic.
And yes, we have a challenge at the Southern Border. As I've said
before, this is not just a ``US'' problem; this is a ``WE'' problem on
a global scale. With the largest mass movement of people this world has
ever seen, clearly, there are potential threats to our national
security. And we must take action to prevent these threats from
materializing.
Here in this committee General John Kelly, former Secretary of
Homeland Security and former Chief of Staff to President Trump, would
say, let me paraphrase him, ``Homeland Security does not start or end
at the border . . . if a threat reaches our border, we are too late.''
We must increase our collaboration with global partners to stop
threats before they reach our border. Homeland experts have
continuously said our border should not be our first line of defense.
I am proud that we have already made progress on anti-terrorism
measures through these partnerships. Since Biden's Executive Order took
effect in June, temporarily suspending entry of noncitizens across the
Southern Border, migrant encounters with Border Patrol have dropped by
55 percent--reducing the threat of bad actors from entering the
country.
Yet, there is more to be done. We need more resources to deal with
the situation at the border, address root causes of migration, and stop
individuals who pose a threat to national security from entering the
country.
I call on my Republican colleagues to work with Democrats to pass
the bipartisan Senate border bill and expand legal pathways so CBP can
focus its attention on threats at the border. We need additional
resources, not less, to help DHS to achieve its mission.
I want to thank our witnesses for joining us today. I look forward
to hearing your testimony regarding threats at the border and
opportunities to strengthen our national security measures.
Mr. Pfluger. The gentleman yields. Other Members of the
subcommittee are reminded that opening statements may be
submitted for the record.
[The statement of Ranking Member Thompson follows:]
Statement of Ranking Member Bennie G. Thompson
September 19, 2024
Around the world, vulnerable people are fleeing countries of
oppression--countries we often don't have a good relationship with--as
well as regions facing poverty and violence. They're seeking refuge,
safety, and opportunity. And in accordance with our laws and long-
standing humanitarian values, we welcome many of those who need
protection and pose no threat to our public safety or national
security.
As part of this committee, it's our duty to ensure that the
Department of Homeland Security has the tools and people it needs to
keep our communities safe. That means investing in a robust vetting
process to screen every single person who enters this country.
That means funding DHS to make sure that those who may pose a
threat don't enter our communities.
It means working with our allies to ensure that those who pose a
threat do not even enter this hemisphere.
The Biden administration has taken action to secure our borders,
despite Republican obstruction. And it's showing results. President
Biden's Executive action this summer led to a 55 percent decrease in
encounters at our Southern Border.
Democrats do not shy away from addressing threats within our
communities, at our borders, or beyond. I hope Republicans will work
with us to tackle threats rather than use the issue for partisan
politics.
Bad actors would prefer we fight each other rather than fix real
challenges.
I also want to point out that this committee has yet to hold a
single hearing on worsening domestic terrorism and violent extremism--
which affects our national security, our public safety, and our way of
life. Last fall, FBI Director Christopher Wray testified that his
agency has over 2,700 open domestic terrorism cases.
And following the events of January 6th and mass murders in El
Paso, Pittsburgh, and Buffalo its clear there are real threats right
here at home from individuals from our own communities. We're now
seeing unfounded and dangerous anti-immigrant rhetoric fueling hate by
far-right extremists and neo-nazi groups in Springfield, Ohio.
More than 33 bomb threats in Springfield, Ohio have shut schools
and municipal buildings over the past week. This hate was fueled in
part by some Members of Congress across the aisle and former President
Trump spreading false rumors that migrants are killing and eating pets.
Even amidst the bomb threats, Vice Presidential Candidate JD Vance
defended making up such terrible stories. He told CNN that ``If I have
to create stories so that the American media actually pays attention to
the suffering of the American people then that's what I'm going to
do.''
Let's be clear--it is never ok to make up stories that put our
communities at risk.
Fearmongering about immigrants is not ok. Bomb threats and violence
are not ok. This language must stop, and the threat of domestic
violence and domestic terrorism should be a serious focus of this
committee.
I look forward to today's discussion, and I ask my Republican
colleagues to demonstrate the same interest and concern about the
threat of domestic terrorism going forward.
Mr. Pfluger. We are pleased to have a distinguished panel
of witnesses before us today on this very important topic and I
ask that the witnesses please rise and raise your right hand.
[Witnesses sworn.]
Mr. Pfluger. Thank you. You may be seated.
Let the record reflect that the witnesses answered in the
affirmative.
Our first witness, Dr. Kelly Brown, is a retired U.S.
combat veteran--Army combat veteran and highly-respected leader
with nearly 30 years of success managing high-performing joint
military and international government teams as an aviator,
strategist, and force manager. She has extensive experiences
across multiple disciplines including the continuity of
government, national contingency operations, homeland security,
emergency management disaster response, and aviation
operations.
Her wide-ranging military career includes service in the
President's emergency operations center at the White House,
senior military fellow for the chief of staff of the Army
strategic studies group, and military adviser for U.S. Customs
and Border Protection and the Department of Homeland Security.
Her combat experience includes deployments in support of
Operation Iraqi Freedom and Operation Enduring Freedom. Thank
you for your service to our Nation and welcome.
Our second witness, Mr. Timothy Healy, serves as the
director of national security for Buchanan and Edwards, an
award-winning technology leader creating transformative
solutions for the Government.
In Mr. Healy's prior roles, he served as the director of
the FBI's terrorist screening center where he led efforts to
consolidate and coordinate the U.S. Government's approach to
terrorism screening and facilitate the sharing of terrorism
information that protects the Nation and our foreign partners
while safeguarding civil liberties.
In addition, Mr. Healy has served as president of Ikun,
LLC, a company focused on serving the Department of Defense.
Department of Homeland Security, Federal and State law
enforcement and intelligence communities. Thank you for your
service to the country.
Our third witness, Mr. Alex Nowrasteh, who serves as vice
president for economic and social study policies at Cato
Institute. His work has been featured in prominent publications
like The Wall Street Journal, U.S.A. Today, and The Washington
Post, amongst others. He is a frequent guest on television and
radio programs including Fox, MSNBC, Bloomberg, and NPR.
In the academic world, his research has been published in
peer review journals, such as the World Bank Economic Review,
the Journal of Economic Behavior and Organization, Public
Choice, and the Journal of Bioeconomics. He has also
contributed chapters to various edited volumes. Thank you for
your service and being here as well.
I thank all the witnesses. We are going to allow an opening
statement. I know that you have a lot of information. Please
summarize it to 5 minutes. We have your written statements, and
then we will get into the question-and-answer period.
The Chair now recognizes Dr. Brown for your opening
statement of 5 minutes.
STATEMENT OF KELLY BROWN, DBA, PRIVATE CITIZEN
Ms. Brown. Thank you. Mr. Chairman, Ranking Members, and
distinguished Members of the committee, thank you for the
opportunity to testify about homeland security consequences of
illegal immigration. In January 2015 I was assigned to the
Department of Homeland Security as a military adviser.
When President Trump directed the Secretary of Defense to
support DHS in securing the Southern Border, my role within DHS
drastically changed from that of a routine military adviser to
that of a border crisis specialist.
From April 2018 to January 2021, I served as a national
expert for translating law enforcement requirements into
military capabilities. The border security system implemented
from April 2018 to January 2021 consisted of agents, detection
technologies, physical barriers such as the wall, Federal and
State government cooperation, military support, and Federal
policies working in synchronized harmony to support Federal
law, discouraging illegal immigration, and expeditiously remove
illegal aliens. Border agents were focused on securing the
border and preventing illegal entry.
In January 2021 that border security system was
intentionally dismantled, construction of physical barriers,
such as the wall, were halted, military support was
significantly reduced, Federal policies of previous
administration were revoked, and pull factors were increased.
Border agents' focus was intentionally shifted from securing
the border and preventing illegal entry to processing illegal
aliens as quickly as possible.
Since 2021, 9.5 million known illegal aliens, more than the
entire population of Israel and just under that of Hungary had
illegally entered the United States. The extent of the illegal
immigration is not limited to a handful of nations, the
Southwest Border, or a particular race or religion. Not
including the United States, there are 194 countries in the
world.
Since the beginning of this fiscal year, illegal aliens
from 172 countries have entered the United States. As the
committee well knows, the State Department has designated Cuba,
Iran, North Korea, and Syria as state sponsors of terrorism.
So far this fiscal year over 14.5 thousand known illegal
aliens have entered the United States from these 4 countries.
While we usually focus on the vast number of illegal aliens
entering the United States via the Southwest Border, it is
important not to lose focus on the Northern Border.
In fiscal year 2020 illegal alien apprehensions on the
Northern Border totaled 2.2 thousand. So far, this fiscal year
illegal alien apprehensions on the Northern Border totaling
nearly 23,000. That is an 800 percent increase. These aren't
just Canadians heading south to escape the cold. These illegal
aliens come from countries such as India, Romania, Russia, and
China, just to name a few.
The influx of illegal aliens is so significant, Border
Patrol agents are unprecedentedly being surged to the Northern
Border. Although illegal aliens are vetted during initial
processing, that vetting pales in comparison to the in-depth
vetting conducted during the legal immigration process.
Additionally, vetting at the border is limited to the
criminal and watch list databases available to U.S. Federal law
enforcement. While those databases are extensive, they are not
all-inclusive. Because the United States does not have access
to criminal and terrorist watch list databases from nations
such as China, Senegal, and Pakistan, we are not able to
conclusively determine during the vetting process the potential
terrorist threat illegal aliens from countries such as these
present to the American people.
This fiscal year alone 52,000 illegal aliens have entered
the United States from China, Senegal, and Pakistan. Of more
concern is the upward of 2 million gotaways and the unknown
number of undetected aliens that have entered the United States
since 2021.
With the skyrocketing number of known terrorists
apprehended at the border, it is reasonable to assume the
number of bad actors entering the United States undetected has
also skyrocketed. The open flow of illegal aliens across all
our Nation's borders has significant and potentially
devastating second- and third-order effects. We have the laws
in place to secure our borders. They must be enforced.
We have dedicated men and women working across all levels
of law enforcement committed to securing our borders. They must
be fully resourced. What we do not have are policies which
enable law enforcement personnel to do their job, enforce our
Nation's laws, and secure our Nation's borders.
Thank you for the opportunity to appear here today.
[The prepared statement of Ms. Brown follows:]
Prepared Statement of Kelly Brown
September 19, 2024
Chairmen Higgins and Pfluger, Ranking Members Correa and Magaziner,
and distinguished Members of the subcommittees, thank you for the
opportunity to testify today about homeland security consequences of
illegal immigration. I am Dr. Kelly Brown, a 26-year U.S. Army combat
veteran, Blackhawk helicopter pilot, strategist, and former military
advisor to both the Secretary of the Homeland Security and the
Commissioner of Customs and Border Protection (CBP).
In January 2015, I was assigned to the Department of Homeland
Security (DHS) as the senior national guard advisor. I provided expert
military advice on homeland security issues; served as a member of the
DHS/Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA) core Department of
Defense (DoD) liaison element; and engaged with FEMA and other Federal
departments and agencies at the National Response Command Center during
crises and incidents.
When President Trump directed that ``the Secretary of Defense shall
support the DHS in securing the Southern Border and taking necessary
actions to stop the flow of deadly drugs and other contraband, gang
members, other criminals, and illegal aliens into'' the United States,
my role within DHS drastically changed from that of a routine military
advisor to that of a border crisis specialist. It was immediately
apparent that CBP needed assistance translating law enforcement support
requirements into military capability requests.
From April 2018 to January 2021, I was dual-hatted as a military
advisor to the Secretary of Homeland Security and the first military
advisor to the Commissioner of CBP. I served as the national expert for
translating law enforcement requirements into military capabilities and
processed 25 DHS Requests for Assistance to DoD totaling more than $1.5
billion in assistance. Additionally, I personally trained over 2,000
soldiers for specialized Southwest Border support operations while
advising the Border Patrol, Office of Field Operations, and Air and
Marine Operations on the legal use of military personnel.
border security system
The border security system implemented from April 2018 to January
2021 consisted of agents, detection technologies, physical barriers
such as the wall, State government cooperation, military support, and
Federal policies working in synchronized harmony to support Federal
law, discourage illegal immigration, and expeditiously remove illegal
aliens. Border agents were focused on securing the border and
preventing illegal entry.
In January 2021, that border security system was intentionally
dismantled leaving a disjointed response system. Construction of
physical barriers such as the wall were halted, military support was
significantly reduced, Federal policies of the previous administration
were revoked, and pull factors were increased. Border agent focus was
intentionally shifted from securing the border and preventing illegal
entry to processing illegal aliens as quickly as possible. Taking
agents off the line resulted in the number of apprehended illegal
aliens entering the United States between ports to surge from 400,000
in 2020 to 1.6 million in 2021 and over 2 million in both 2022 and
2023. Since 2021, 9.5 million known (apprehended and gotaway) illegal
aliens--more to the entire population of Israel (9.3 million) and just
under that of Hungary (9.6 million)--have illegally entered the United
States.
breadth of the problem
The extent of illegal immigration is not limited to a handful of
nations, the Southwest Border, or a particular race or religion.
Not including the United States, there are 194 countries in the
world.
In fiscal year 2020, illegal aliens from 141 different countries
and their territories--representing 76 percent of the world's nations--
illegally entered the United States.
Since the beginning of fiscal year 2024, illegal aliens from the
following 172 different nations and their territories--representing 88
percent of the world's nations--have illegally entered the United
States: Afghanistan, Albania, Algeria, Andorra, Angola, Anguilla
(territory of the United Kingdom), Antigua-Barbuda, Argentina, Armenia,
Aruba (territory of the Netherlands), Australia, Austria, Azerbaijan,
Bahamas, Bangladesh, Belarus, Belgium, Belize, Benin, Bhutan, Bolivia,
Bonaire (special municipality of the Netherlands), Bosnia-Herzegovina,
Brazil, Bulgaria, Burkina Faso, Burma (Myanmar), Burundi, Cambodia,
Cameroon, Canada, Cape Verde, Central African Republic, Chad, Chile,
China, Cocos Islands (territory of Australia), Columbia, Comoros,
Congo, Costa Rica, Croatia, Cuba, Cyprus, Czech Republic, Democratic
Republic of the Congo, Djibouti, Dominica, Dominican Republic, Ecuador,
Egypt, El Salvador, Equatorial Guinea, Eritrea, Estonia, Ethiopia,
Finland, France, French Guiana (territory of France), French Southern
and Antarcitic (territory of France), Gabon, Gambia, Georgia, Germany,
Ghana, Gibraltar (territory of the United Kingdom), Greece, Grenada,
Guadeloupe (territory of France), Guatemala, Guinea, Guinea-Bissau,
Guyana, Haiti, Honduras, Hungary, India, Indonesia, Iran, Iraq,
Ireland, Israel, Italy, Ivory Coast, Jamaica, Japan, Jordan,
Kazakhstan, Kenya, Kosovo (disputed territory), Kyrgyzstan, Laos,
Latvia, Lebanon, Lesotho, Liberia, Libya, Lithuania, Malaysia, Mali,
Malta, Mauritania, Mauritius, Mexico, Micronesia, Moldova, Mongolia,
Montenegro, Morocco, Mozambique, Namibia, Nepal, Netherlands,
Nicaragua, Niger, Nigeria, North Korea, North Macedonia, Oman,
Pakistan, Panama, Papua New Guinea, Paraguay, Peru, Philippines,
Poland, Portugal, Romania, Russia, Rwanda, Samoa, Saudi Arabia,
Senegal, Serbia, Sierra Leone, Somalia, South Africa, South Korea,
South Sudan, Spain, Sri Lanka, St. Kitts-Nevis, Sudan, Suriname,
Sweden, Switzerland, Syria, Taiwan (China), Tajikistan, Tanzania,
Thailand, Togo, Trinidad and Tobago, Tunisia, Turkey, Turkmenistan,
Turks and Caicos Islands (territory of the United Kingdom), Uganda,
Ukraine, United Arab Emirates, United Kingdom, Uruguay, Uzbekistan,
Vanuatu, Venezuela, Vietnam, Western Sahara (non-self-governing
territory), Yemen, Zambia, and Zimbabwe.
So far, this fiscal year, the top 5 nations from which illegal
aliens have entered the United States are Guatemala (193,000),
Venezuela (134,000), Ecuador (115,000), Honduras (109,000), and
Columbia (110,000) totaling 661,000 people or that of the entire
population of the city of Las Vegas.
As the committee knows well, the State Department has designated
Cuba, Iran, North Korea, and Syria as state sponsors of terrorism. With
2 weeks remaining in this fiscal year, over 14,500 known illegal
aliens, equivalent to the entire population of Anguilla, have entered
the United States from these countries alone.
While we most often discuss the vast number of illegal aliens
entering the United States via the Southwest Border, it is important to
not lose focus on the Northern Border. In fiscal year 2020, illegal
alien apprehensions on the Northern Border totaled 2,200. So far, this
fiscal year, illegal alien apprehensions on the Northern Border total
nearly 23,000--that's an 800 percent increase. These aren't just
Canadians heading south to escape the cold weather. These illegal
aliens come from countries such as India, Romania, Russia, and China,
to name a few. The influx of illegal aliens is so significant, agents
are unprecedently being surged to Northern Border.
bad actor opportunities
Although Border Patrol agents conduct initial vetting of illegal
aliens during initial processing, that vetting pales in comparison to
the in-depth vetting conducted during the legal immigration process.
Additionally, Border Patrol agent vetting is limited to the criminal
and watch list databases available to U.S. Federal law enforcement.
While those databases are extensive, they are not all-inclusive, which
allows some bad actors to slip into the country before the full extent
of their criminal histories is uncovered.
Because the United States does not have access to criminal and
terrorist watch list databases from nations such as China, Senegal, and
Pakistan for example, Border Patrol agents are not able to conclusively
determine the potential threat the 37,000 illegal aliens from China,
13,800 illegal aliens from Senegal, and 1,000 illegal aliens from
Pakistan who have illegally entered the United States this fiscal year
present to the American people.
Of more concern is the upwards of 2 million ``gotaways'' and
unknown number of undetected aliens that have entered the United States
since 2021. With the skyrocketing number of known terrorists
apprehended at the border, it is reasonable to assume the number of bad
actors entering the United States undetected has also skyrocketed.
conclusion
The open flow of illegal aliens across all our Nation's borders has
significant and potentially devastating second- and third-order
effects--some of which we see on the news as there is increased
reporting of illegal alien criminals who victimize innocent American
citizens.
We have the laws in place to secure our borders--they must be
enforced.
We have dedicated men and women working across all levels of law
enforcement agencies committed to securing our borders--they must be
fully resourced and given the tools they need and deserve to do their
jobs.
The pieces that are missing are leadership at the highest levels of
government and policies which enable law enforcement to do its job,
enforce our Nation's laws, and secure our borders.
Thank you for the opportunity to appear before you today. I am
ready to answer your questions.
Mr. Pfluger. The Chair now recognizes Mr. Healy for his
opening statement for 5 minutes.
STATEMENT OF TIMOTHY J. HEALY, PRIVATE CITIZEN
Mr. Healy. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I appreciate the
opportunity to speak. On January 17, Kevin Brock, a retired
assistant director, former head of the FBI intelligence
division, convened a group of former senior FBI executives to
draft a letter to Congress expressing our deep concern about
the current threat that poses unprecedented danger to the
United States.
This group of FBI leaders was notably diverse. Their
professional backgrounds encompass a wider range of expertise
within the FBI. The threat we faced was equally varied spanning
the full spectrum of the FBI investigations. The threat was new
and unfamiliar.
Our concern was that military-age men from across the
globe, many in countries and regions hostile to the United
States, were arriving on our soils by the thousands not by
disembarking from a ship or parachuting from a plane, but by
crossing the border on foot, a border widely recognized around
the world as largely unprotected and easily accessible.
This group included individuals apprehended by the border
officials potentially released into the country along with an
alarming number of gotaways, which everyone has spoken about.
Gotaways from fiscal year 2021 to 2024 totaled over 2 million.
Considering such a daunting unprecedented level of
penetration of our borders, it is reasonable to assess that the
country's national security has been dramatically diminished.
On 2021, the demographics of those crossing the border
began to shift. The number of young men traveling alone around
the world drastically increased. Alarmingly, a significant
number of them were found on the terrorist watch list or for
countries from state-sponsored terrorism.
From 2021 to 2023, over 7,924,000 encounters nationwide.
Since July 2024, more than 2,427,000 bringing the total to
10,351,000. These unprecedented numbers have shattered all
expectations pushing our country's screening capabilities to
the breaking point and exposing vulnerabilities on a scale once
unimagined.
Given the sheer volume, it seems likely that effectively
screening terrorists against the terrorist watch list has
becoming an incredible challenge creating serious concerns for
our national security.
As a former director of the TSC, my foremost concern was
encounters within the United States. In my experience, numbers
mattered. Nineteen al-Qaeda terrorists on 4 commercial jets
fundamentally altered our world. In that landscape, a single
terrorist act has the potential to impact millions of lives. I
witnessed it first-hand the potential devastate--of devastating
even of a lone terrorist that could cause.
Consider the events of Christmas day on 2009 when the
underwear bomber attempted to detonate explosions on Northwest
flight 253 or on May 1, 2010, when Faisal Shahzad tried to
ignite a bomb in Times Square. Both events driven by actions of
just 2 individuals had the potential to cause catastrophic
consequences for thousands. Numbers matter, whether it is 19 or
just 1, the potential consequences can be devastating.
Between 2017 and 2020, 14 individuals on the terrorist
watch list were apprehended by Border Patrol between points of
entry. This is alarming as the apprehensions at these locations
indicate the suspected terrorist is actively trying to avoid
detection. However, the situation has grown more urgent. From
2021 to 2024, 380 individuals on the watch list were
apprehended between points of entry, an increase of 2,614
percent. The numbers underscore the escalating scale of the
threat.
To add to this, between 2021, 2024 border officials on the
Southwest Border encountered terrorist people--individuals on
the terrorist watch list from 36 different countries. The
reality is compounded by the 2 million gotaways who evaded
capture. It would be crazy to assume that none of these
individuals were on the watch list. In fact, it is highly
likely that watch-listed individuals would have a stronger
motivation to avoid detection making it impossible to know how
many crossed undetected.
These facts paint a stark picture of the unprecedented
challenge we face. The numbers do just matter. They tell us how
precarious our current situation really is. In 2024 Director
Wray testified that he was particularly concerned about the
scores of potential terrorists who had entered the country
because they weren't on the watch list initially but DHS had
released them. He explained in many cases the FBI didn't have
enough information to put them on the watch list. It was only
after receiving new intelligence from overseas that they
identified these individuals that should have been watch-
listed.
Director Wray is right to be concerned. The new and
unprecedented threat demands immediate and decisive action. Our
borders must be secure and those already in the country
illegally must be identified, vetted, and if necessary, watch-
listed. We must act swiftly and comprehensively to close the
gap that adversaries may seek to exploit. The stakes couldn't
be higher. The need for vigilance, dedication, and immediate
action is never more critical. Thank you.
[The prepared statement of Mr. Healy follows:]
Prepared Statement of Timothy J. Healy
Good morning, Chairman, Ranking Member, and distinguished Members
of the committee. My name is Tim Healy, I served as director of the
Terrorist Screening Center from 2009 to 2013. Thank you for inviting me
to join you, I appreciate the opportunity to speak with you today.
Following the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001, the
President and Congress mandated that all Federal departments and
agencies share terrorism-related information with members of the
counterterrorism community responsible for protecting the United
States. In line with this mandate, Homeland Security Presidential
Directive-6 (HSPD-6) was approved on September 16, 2003, establishing
the Terrorist Screening Center (TSC). Shortly after HSPD-6 was enacted,
I was assigned to help establish the TSC. I was privileged to serve as
the TSC's deputy director under its first director, Donna Bucella, and
later returned to serve as its director.
Through the TSC, the FBI shares terrorism-related information
across the U.S. Government and with other law enforcement agencies. The
TSC maintains the terrorist watch list, a database containing national
security and law enforcement information about individuals ``reasonably
suspected to be involved in terrorism or related activities.'' An
encounter occurs when an individual is identified during screening as a
potential match to someone in the Terrorist Screening Database (TSDS).
Encounters can be face-to-face (e.g., at a U.S. port of entry, visa
interview, or traffic stop by local law enforcement), electronic (e.g.,
ESTA or visa application). If an individual is confirmed to match a
record in the TSDS, each encountering agency will take appropriate
action according to its internal policies, procedures, and regulatory &
statutory requirements to fulfill its mission. For law enforcement
officers, all positive matches are coordinated with the TSC and the FBI
case agent; the officer is instructed via an NCIC hit to contact the
TSC by phone. If the individual is encountered at the border, Customs
and Border Protection (CBP) officers collect biographical and biometric
information.
On January 17, 2024, Kevin Brock, a retired assistant director and
former head of the FBI's Intelligence Division, convened a group of
former senior FBI executives to draft a letter to Congress expressing
our deep concern about a current threat that poses an unprecedented
danger to the United States. This group of former FBI leaders was
notably diverse, not because they didn't recognize the importance of
the threat, but because their professional backgrounds encompassed a
wide range of expertise within the FBI's many areas of jurisdiction.
Despite their differing experiences, they were united in recognizing
that the threat we faced was equally varied, spanning the full spectrum
of the FBI's responsibilities. This new wave of threats would affect
most of the FBI's domestic field offices, involving a wide array of
Criminal, Counterintelligence, Counterterrorism, and Intelligence
Squads, as well as various FBI task forces and personnel supporting the
Terrorist Screening Center's (TSC) encounters.
The threat was new and unfamiliar: our concern was that military-
aged men from across the globe, many from countries or regions hostile
to the United States, were arriving on our soil by the thousands--not
by disembarking from a ship or parachuting from a plane, but by
crossing a border on foot, a border widely recognized around the world
as largely unprotected and easily accessible.
The threat posed by the presence within our borders of what
amounted to a massive influx of young single adult males, akin to a
multi-division army from hostile nations and regions--whose
backgrounds, intentions, or loyalties were entirely unknown. This group
included individuals who were apprehended by border officials and
potentially released into the country, along with an alarmingly high
number of ``gotaways.''
``Gotaways'' for fiscal years 2021 to 2024, year-to-date, total
over 2 million. The former chief of the Border Patrol testified that
this figure is underreported by at least 20 percent, which means that,
conservatively, there may be more than 2.4 million known and unknown
gotaways. Considering such a daunting and unprecedented level of
penetration of our border, it is reasonable to assess that the
country's national security has been dramatically diminished. Over the
past 3\1/2\ years, the Nation's military, laws, and other natural
protective barriers that have traditionally provided security have been
thoroughly circumvented.
In 2021, the demographics of those crossing the porous Southern
Border began to shift. The number of young men traveling alone from
around the world, often with questionable motivations, increased
dramatically. Alarmingly, a significant number of them have been found
on the terrorist watch list or are from countries designated as state
sponsors of terror and openly hostile to the United States. From fiscal
years 2021 to 2023, there have been over 7,924,000 encounters
nationwide, and since July of fiscal year 2024, there have been more
than 2,427,000, bringing the total to over 10,351,000 nationwide
encounters. These unprecedented numbers have shattered all
expectations, pushing our country's screening capabilities to their
breaking point and exposing vulnerabilities on a scale once
unimaginable. Given the sheer volume, it seems likely that effectively
screening individuals against the terrorist watch list has become an
overwhelming challenge, creating serious concerns for national
security. And yet, this situation was not only foreseeable but entirely
avoidable.
This is especially concerning in light of the Hamas terror attacks
on Israel last October 7. Counterterrorism experts understand that
successful attacks often inspire replication. The potential threat
posed by a large number of young males within our borders who could
replicate the 10/7 attacks against unarmed citizens at the direction of
a foreign terror group should not be ignored. While FBI Director
Christopher Wray has rightly raised the threat level since 10/7, there
has been little discussion about how unsecured borders contribute to
this growing danger.
Every violation of our Nation's immigration laws increases our
risk, but the current surge of individuals arriving in American cities
and towns is particularly alarming. These individuals are not only
coming from regions with known terrorist activity but also from nations
such as China and Russia--countries with hostile intentions toward the
United States and aspirations to undermine our national infrastructure.
As the former director of the TSC, my foremost concern was
encounters with known or suspected terrorists within the United States.
My gravest fear was terrorists actively plotting to kill Americans on
our own soil. In my experience, the numbers matter. Nineteen al-Qaeda
terrorists on 4 commercial jetliners fundamentally altered our world,
forever changing our mindset in the aftermath of 9/11. In this
landscape, a single terrorist act has the potential to impact millions
of lives. I witnessed first-hand the potential devastation that even a
lone terrorist can cause. Consider the events of Christmas day in 2009,
when Umar Abdulmutallab, later dubbed the ``Underwear Bomber,''
attempted to detonate explosives hidden in his underwear aboard
Northwest Airlines Flight 253 en route from Amsterdam to Detroit. Or
the incident on May 1, 2010, when Faisal Shahzad tried to ignite a bomb
in Times Square, which had been ignited but failed to explode. Both
events, driven by the actions of just 2 individuals, had the potential
to cause catastrophic consequences for thousands. As the numbers grow,
so do the unknowns; the danger increases exponentially, making the
challenge of preventing such attacks incredibly more complex.
While at the TSC, I established a program to systematically monitor
and identify all positive encounters involving terrorists who did not
have an active FBI investigation. Each of these encounters was
highlighted and categorized by the type of contact. If there was a U.S.
nexus, the FBI had to be involved; if not, I wanted to know why. Most
of these encounters, without exception, involved individuals flagged by
U.S. intelligence agencies based on information obtained overseas. They
typically occurred outside the United States during visa applications
or with U.S. border officials abroad as individuals attempted to board
flights to the United States, all outside the U.S. border.
However, on rare occasions--approximately once a month--an
encounter would take place within the United States, involving a State
or local law enforcement officer. This meant that a known or suspected
terrorist, flagged by a U.S. intelligence agency, had managed to enter
the United States undetected but was fortunately identified when
stopped by a local officer, resulting in a positive match to the Terror
Watch List. In these critical situations, the local FBI field office
was immediately notified, and a counterterrorism investigation was
launched. Such encounters were of grave concern, generating significant
unease until an active FBI investigation was confirmed. These events
underscored the constant need for unwavering dedication to the mission
of border security in preventing a terrorist attack.
Numbers matter--whether it's 19 terrorists or just 1, the potential
consequences are always devastating. Between fiscal year 2017 and 2020,
14 individuals on the Terrorist Watch List were apprehended by Border
Patrol between points of entry. This was alarming, as apprehensions at
these locations indicate that known or suspected terrorists are
actively trying to evade detection. However, this situation has only
grown more urgent. From fiscal year 2021 to 2024, 380 individuals on
the Terrorist Watch List were apprehended by Border Patrol between
points of entry--an increase of 2,614 percent. The numbers underscore
the escalating scale of the threat.
To add to this, between fiscal year 2021 and 2023, Border Patrol
agents at the Southwest Border encountered individuals on the Terrorist
Watch List from 36 different countries, including Afghanistan, Egypt,
Iraq, Iran, Lebanon, Pakistan, Russia, Somalia, Yemen, and others. This
list represents only those identified; the reality is compounded by the
over 2 million ``gotaways'' who evaded capture. It would be dangerously
naive to assume that none of these individuals were on the Terrorist
Watch List. In fact, it is highly likely that a watch-listed individual
would have a stronger motivation to avoid detection, making it
impossible to know how many might have crossed our borders undetected.
These facts paint a stark picture of the unprecedented challenges
we face today. The numbers do not just matter--they tell us how
precarious our current situation truly is. I am deeply concerned about
the odds we are up against, and the urgent need for vigilance and
dedication in protecting our Nation from a potential terrorist attack.
In July 2023, FBI Director Christopher Wray testified about ``an
uptick'' in ``known or suspected terrorists coming across the Southwest
Border'' and stated that ``the Southern Border represents a massive
security threat.'' In March 2024, Director Wray expressed concerns
about ``the terrorism implications from potential targeting of
vulnerabilities at the border.'' More of a concern, in July 2024,
Director Wray testified that he was particularly concerned about the
scores of potential terrorists who had entered the country because they
were not on the terrorist watch list at the time the DHS released them
into the United States. He explained that, in many of these cases, the
FBI did not initially have sufficient information to place these
individuals on the watch list. It was only after receiving new
intelligence from overseas that the FBI identified them as individuals
who should have been watch-listed.
Director Wray is right to be concerned, this new, unprecedented
threat demands immediate and decisive action. Our borders must be
secured, and those already in the country illegally must be identified,
vetted, and, if necessary, added to the watch list. Achieving this
level of security will require a coordinated effort between the FBI,
the DHS, and the broader intelligence community. We must act swiftly
and comprehensively to close the gaps that adversaries may seek to
exploit.
The reality is stark: our country is facing a form of invasion--one
that will persist as long as our enemies believe it will be tolerated.
Until we take strong and unwavering steps to halt this, the United
States remains dangerously less safe and secure. Knowing all this, it
would be nothing short of a shameful travesty if a preventable attack
were to strike innocent Americans or target the infrastructure that
keeps our Nation safe and functioning. The stakes could not be higher,
and the need for vigilance, dedication, and immediate action has never
been more critical.
Additional Background Regarding the TSC Nomination Process
nominations to the tsds
Nominations to the Terrorist Screening Database (TSDS) originate
from credible information provided by intelligence and law enforcement
agencies. Each nominating agency employs a multi-layered review and
quality assurance process to ensure the accuracy and reliability of the
information. Once this process is complete, all international subjects
are submitted to the National Counterterrorism Center (NCTC), which
conducts its own multi-layered review and quality assurance process. If
a nomination does not meet the reasonable suspicion standard, the NCTC
may request additional information from the intelligence community.
Similarly, the FBI is solely responsible for nominating individuals
with a nexus to domestic terrorism. These nominations are provided
directly to the TSC for potential inclusion in the TSDS.
Before any information is placed into the TSDB, the TSC undertakes
a multi-level review process to ensure that the nomination meets the
criteria for inclusion. Generally, nominations to the TSDB must satisfy
2 primary requirements. First, the facts and circumstances must meet
the reasonable suspicion standard. Second, the biographic information
associated with a nomination must contain sufficient identifying data
to ensure that an individual being screened can be accurately matched
to, or differentiated from, another watch-listed individual.
The reasonable suspicion standard requires articulable facts which,
when considered with rational inferences, reasonably suggest that an
individual is ``known or suspected to be, or has been, engaged in
conduct constituting, in preparation for, in aid of, or related to
terrorism and terrorist activities.'' This standard is based on the
totality of the circumstances, accounting for the often-fragmentary
nature of terrorist information and gives due weight to reasonable
inferences that can be drawn from the available facts. Mere guesses or
vague ``hunches'' are not sufficient to establish reasonable suspicion.
TSC personnel also review the supporting information to determine
whether it meets the additional requirements necessary for placing an
individual on the No-Fly or Selectee Lists. If a nomination involves a
request for an individual to be placed on these lists, it must meet
more stringent criteria beyond the reasonable suspicion standard
required for TSDB nominations. Additionally, they verify that the
biographic information is sufficiently detailed to ensure that a person
being screened can be properly matched to, or distinguished from, a
watch-listed individual on the TSDB.
Mr. Pfluger. The Chair now recognizes Mr. Nowrasteh for his
opening statement of 5 minutes.
STATEMENT OF ALEX NOWRASTEH, VICE PRESIDENT, ECONOMIC AND
SOCIAL POLICY STUDIES, CATO INSTITUTE
Mr. Nowrasteh. Chairman Pfluger--Chairman Pfluger and
Higgins, Ranking Members Magaziner and Correa, and
distinguished Members of the subcommittees, thank you for the
opportunity to testify today. Over the decades, Cato Institute
scholars have produced original research on immigration and
realistic evaluations of the threat of foreign-born terrorism.
To analyze the security consequences of illegal
immigration, we must focus on the facts and analyze them
rationally. We must start such an analysis with the base rate
of foreign-born terrorism to correctly understand the terrorist
threat posed by illegal immigrants. The base rate, also known
as prior probability, is the likelihood of a terrorist attack
before considering any new information like the increase in
illegal immigration over the last several years.
The first potential base rate is that terrorists who
entered as illegal immigrants have committed zero attacks on
U.S. soil, and as a result have murdered or injured zero people
in terrorist attacks in the United States. The 9 terrorists who
have entered the United States illegally could also be included
here.
They were all arrested before carrying out their attacks, 5
of them illegally across the U.S.-Canada border, 1 was a
stowaway on a ship, and 3 of them, the Duka brothers, entered
illegally through the U.S.-Mexico border in 1984 when they were
young children. In 2007 they were convicted as part of the Fort
Dix plot.
The second potential base rate is that all for---is that
all foreign-born terrorists, not just those who entered
illegally, have murdered 3,046 people in attacks on U.S. soil
since 1975, equivalent to about 0.3 percent of all homicides
during that time.
That includes, of course, the 9/11 attacks, the deadliest
terror attacks in world history that account for almost 98
percent of all people murdered by foreign-born terrorists on
U.S. soil. The annual chance of being murdered in an attack
committed by foreign-born terrorists is about one in 4.5
million per year during that time.
The third potential base rate is the 44 people murdered in
foreign-born terrorist attacks on U.S. soil since 9/11. An
average of about 2 victims per year accounting for 0.01 percent
of all homicides since 9/11 and translating to a 1 in 157
million chance per year of being killed.
So we can reasonably choose any of these 3 base rates. No.
1, zero people killed by illegal immigrant terrorists. No. 2,
the 3,046 people killed by all foreign-born terrorists since
1975. Or No. 3, the 44 people killed by foreign-born terrorists
since 9/11.
Now, regardless of the base rate that you choose for this,
foreign-born terrorism on U.S. soil is a small and manageable
threat that is even smaller when focusing on terrorists who
could cross the U.S.-Mexico border. How low is the risk? So low
that some analysts even resort to making up terrorism cases
where there are none.
They exaggerate unknowns, rely on incomplete
investigations, or hyperbolize news stories like in Quantico,
Virginia. Those exaggerators have inverted the anti-terror
slogan ``see something, say something'' into the post-modern
``say something, see something''. They think that calling
something terrorism makes it so, but it does not.
Some people would argue that the base rate should be higher
because the number of migrants encountered entering between
ports of entry who are on the terrorism watch list is much
higher than in recent years. The facts are that of all Border
Patrol encounters along the U.S.-Mexico border, only, and there
is a lot of zeros here, so bear with me, 0.001 percent were on
the watch list in the 2017 to 2020 period compared to 0.005
percent since then.
Furthermore, few migrants on the watch list are actually
terrorists, which is evidenced by the zero terrorism-related
charges brought against them. Illegal immigrants who cross the
U.S.-Mexico border have never murdered or injured anyone in a
terrorist attack on U.S. soil, but it could happen. I want to
emphasize that. It could happen. The chance is above zero. The
Government should continue to screen migrants, travelers, and
immigrants to the United States to exclude security threat.
In conclusion, a focus on the fact shows us that the threat
of illegal immigration, terrorism, is small and manageable.
Thank you.
[The prepared statement of Mr. Nowrasteh follows:]
Prepared Statement of Alex Nowrasteh
September 19, 2024
Chairmen Pfluger and Higgins, Ranking Members Magaziner and Correa,
and distinguished Members of the subcommittees, thank you for the
opportunity to testify. My name is Alex Nowrasteh, and I am the vice
president for economic and social policy studies at the Cato Institute,
a nonpartisan public policy research organization in Washington, DC. It
is an honor to be invited to speak with you today on the topic:
``Beyond the Border: Terrorism and Homeland Security Consequences of
Illegal Immigration.''
Over many decades, the Cato Institute has produced original
research on the benefits of immigration to Americans, the problems of
illegal immigration and chaos along the Southwest Border caused by the
restrictive legal U.S. immigration system, and sober evaluations of the
realistic hazard of foreign-born terrorism. In my research, I use a
broad definition of terrorism: the threatened or actual use of illegal
force and violence by non-state actors to attain a political, economic,
religious, or social goal through fear, coercion, or intimidation.\1\
Drug cartels and other criminal organizations are not terrorists even
though they commit heinous crimes, murder many people, destroy much
more property, and injure more innocent people. Terrorism is not
synonymous with ``bad crimes.'' It is a specific type of crime based on
the motivations of the criminal.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
\1\ Definition from the Global Terrorism Database: http://
www.start-dev.umd.edu/gtd/using-gtd/; the narrower legal definition: 18
U.S. Code 2331.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Foreign-born terrorists who seek to commit attacks on U.S. soil
pose a hazard to the life, liberty, and private property of Americans
and the lawful operation of the U.S. Government. Reducing the risk of
foreign-born terrorism is a legitimate function of the U.S. Government.
Nonetheless, terrorism committed by foreign-born attackers is a
manageable hazard. The threat of terrorist entry through the Southwest
Border is minuscule even when compared to the overall low hazard posed
by foreign-born terrorism. This fact could always change because the
future is unknowable, but available information indicates that foreign-
born terrorists who seek to cross the U.S.-Mexico border and commit an
attack here pose a very small and manageable threat.
illegal immigrants, asylum seekers, and foreign-born terrorism on u.s.
soil
In my research, I have identified 230 foreign-born terrorists who
committed attacks on U.S. soil, intended to commit attacks on U.S.
soil, threatened attacks here, or tried to fund domestic terrorism.\2\
Those 230 foreign-born terrorists were responsible for 3,046 murders
and 17,078 injuries in attacks on U.S. soil from 1975 through the end
of 2023.\3\ The annual chance of being murdered in a terrorist attack
committed by a foreign-born terrorist during that time is about 1 in
4.5 million per year.\4\ The annual chance of being injured in such an
attack is about 1 in 793,561 per year. By comparison, the annual chance
of being murdered in a criminal non-terrorist homicide in the United
States was about 1 in 13,767 during the same period. The chance of
being murdered in a normal homicide is about 323 times greater than
being killed in an attack committed by a foreign-born terrorist.\5\
During that time, 97.8 percent (2,979) of all those murdered in
terrorist attacks were murdered on 9/11, and 86.9 percent (14,842) of
all people injured in foreign-born terrorist attacks were injured on 9/
11.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
\2\ See Appendix for how these numbers are calculated.
\3\ Alex Nowrasteh, ``Terrorism and Immigration: A Risk Analysis,
1975-2023,'' Cato Institute Policy Analysis no. 972, April 9, 2024.
\4\ Alex Nowrasteh, ``Terrorism and Immigration: A Risk Analysis,
1975-2023,'' Cato Institute Policy Analysis no. 972, April 9, 2024.
\5\ Alex Nowrasteh, ``Terrorism and Immigration: A Risk Analysis,
1975-2023,'' Cato Institute Policy Analysis no. 972, April 9, 2024.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Zero people were murdered in attacks on U.S. soil committed by a
foreign-born terrorist who entered illegally during the 1975-2023
period. Zero people were injured in attacks on U.S. soil committed by a
foreign-born terrorist who entered illegally during that time. Suffice
it to say, the number of people killed or injured in a terrorist attack
committed by an illegal immigrant who entered illegally across the
U.S.-Mexico border is also zero.
However, 9 foreign-born terrorists entered the United States
illegally during the 1975-2023 period (Table 1). Three of the 9
terrorists entered illegally by crossing the U.S.-Mexico border. They
are Dritan Duka, Eljvir Duka, and Shain Duka, and they entered
illegally in 1984 when they were aged 5, 3, and 1, respectively. They
were arrested almost 23 years later, in 2007, while plotting to attack
Fort Dix, New Jersey. The Duka's plot was not serious. They were
arrested after a video clerk saw a VHS recording that the brothers
taped of themselves acting as terrorists.\6\ Of the other illegal
immigrant terrorists, 5 illegally crossed the U.S.-Canada border
(Kabbani, Thurston, Mezer, Ressam, and Abdi) and one was a stowaway on
a ship (Meskini).
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
\6\ Alex Nowrasteh and Michael J. Ard, ``Alarmism about Terrorism
is Risky and Unjustified,'' Discourse Magazine, July, 2, 2024.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Duka brothers were ``gotaways,'' which is defined as an
unlawful border crosser who (1) is directly or indirectly observed
making an unlawful entry into the United States; (2) is not
apprehended; and (3) is not a turn back.\7\ There have been many
gotaways in recent years, over 1.7 million since January 2021. There is
little evidence that a larger population of illegal immigrants in the
United States, a population augmented by more gotaways, poses an
increased risk of terrorism. The Department of Homeland Security (DHS)
should be vigilant to the possibility, the situation could always
change, and an illegal immigrant could commit an attack, but there is
little reason to worry more than usual.\8\
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
\7\ 6 U.S. Code 223.
\8\ Alex Nowrasteh, ``A Foreign-Born Terrorist Could Cross the
Southwest Border,'' Alex Nowrasteh's Deep Dives, July 9, 2024.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thirteen terrorists entered as asylum applicants, and they are
responsible for 9 murders and about 669 injuries in attacks on U.S.
soil during the 1975-2023 period. The annual chance of being murdered
by a foreign-born terrorist who entered as an asylum applicant or who
was granted asylum shortly after entering is about 1 in 1.5 billion per
year. The annual chance of being injured in an attack committed by a
foreign-born terrorist who was present as an asylum seeker is just over
1 in 20 million per year. None of the asylum seekers who became
terrorists entered by crossing the U.S.-Mexico border. Only one was
from the Western Hemisphere; Eduardo Arocena from Cuba, and he
committed his last attack in 1980.\9\
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
\9\ Alex Nowrasteh, ``Terrorism and Immigration: A Risk Analysis,
1975-2023,'' Cato Institute Policy Analysis no. 972, April 9, 2024.
TABLE 1
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Immigration Status Upon
Name of Terrorist Year Fatalities Injuries Entry Country of Birth Ideology
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Kabbani, Walid........................ 1987 0.00 0.00 Illegal Immigrant........ Lebanon.................. Foreign Nationalism.
Thurston, Darren...................... 1996 0.00 0.00 Illegal Immigrant........ Canada................... Left.
Mezer, Gazi Ibrahim Abu............... 1997 0.00 0.00 Illegal Immigrant........ Palestine................ Islamism.
Meskini, Abdelghani................... 1999 0.00 0.00 Illegal Immigrant........ Algeria.................. Islamism.
Ressam, Ahmed......................... 1999 0.00 0.00 Illegal Immigrant........ Algeria.................. Islamism.
Abdi, Nuradin M....................... 2003 0.00 0.00 Illegal Immigrant........ Somalia.................. Islamism.
Duka, Dritan.......................... 2007 0.00 0.00 Illegal Immigrant........ Macedonia................ Islamism.
Duka, Eljvir.......................... 2007 0.00 0.00 Illegal Immigrant........ Macedonia................ Islamism.
Duka, Shain........................... 2007 0.00 0.00 Illegal Immigrant........ Macedonia................ Islamism.
Arocena, Eduardo...................... 1980 2.00 0.00 Asylum................... Cuba..................... Right.
Berberian, Dikran Sarkis.............. 1982 0.00 0.00 Asylum................... Lebanon.................. Foreign Nationalism.
Yousef, Ramzi......................... 1993 1.00 173.67 Asylum................... Pakistan................. Islamism.
Ajaj, Ahmed........................... 1993 1.00 173.67 Asylum................... Palestine................ Islamism.
Khan, Majid Shoukat................... 2003 0.00 0.00 Asylum................... Pakistan................. Islamism.
Siraj, Shahawar Matin................. 2004 0.00 0.00 Asylum................... Pakistan................. Islamism.
Ferhani, Ahmed........................ 2011 0.00 0.00 Asylum................... Algeria.................. Islamism.
Tsarnaev, Dzhokhar.................... 2013 2.50 140.00 Asylum................... Kyrgyzstan............... Islamism.
Tsarnaev, Tamerlan.................... 2013 2.50 140.00 Asylum................... Kyrgyzstan............... Islamism.
Fathi, El Mehdi Semlali............... 2014 0.00 0.00 Asylum................... Morocco.................. Islamism.
Rahimi, Ahmad Khan.................... 2016 0.0 29.0 Asylum................... Afghanistan.............. Islamism.
Artan, Abdul Razak Ali................ 2016 0.0 13.0 Asylum................... Somalia.................. Islamism.
Shihab, Shihab Ahmed Shihab........... 2022 0.0 0.0 Asylum................... Iraq..................... Islamism.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Source: Alex Nowrasteh, Terrorism and Immigration A Risk Analysis, 1975-2023.
Abdulahi Hasan Sharif is the closest example of a possible asylum
seeker or illegal immigrant having crossed the U.S.-Mexico border and
then committing an attack. He crossed the U.S.-Mexico border in 2011
and was immediately apprehended by Border Patrol. He may have possibly
applied for asylum, but an immigration judge ordered him to be removed,
and Sharif never appealed that decision. Instead, he went to Canada and
wounded 5 people years later in a vehicle attack in Edmonton in
2017.\10\
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
\10\ ``Man charged in Edmonton attacks crossed into the U.S. from
Mexico, records show,'' CBC News, October 4, 2017.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
note on native-born american terrorism
Native-born Americans have also committed terrorist attacks on U.S.
soil and I investigated these cases for the 1975-2017 period.\11\
During that shorter time, I identified 192 foreign-born terrorists who
murdered 3,037 people in attacks on U.S. soil and 788 native-born
terrorists who murdered 413 people in attacks. Of the attacks where the
terrorists' nativity was known, 80 percent of the attackers were
native-born, and 88 percent of the victims were murdered by foreign-
born terrorists. During the post-9/11 period through the end of 2017,
native-born terrorists murdered 149 people in attacks, and foreign-born
terrorists murdered 41. My research did not cover native-born American
terrorists during later periods because complex methodological problems
emerged, the time cost was prohibitive, and there was virtually no
interest in these findings.\12\
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
\11\ Alex Nowrasteh, ``Terrorism and Immigration: A Risk Analysis,
1975-2017,'' Cato Institute Policy Analysis no. 866, May 7, 2019.
\12\ Alex Nowrasteh, ``Terrorism and Immigration: A Risk Analysis,
1975-2022,'' Cato Institute Policy Analysis no. 958, August 22, 2023.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
recent terrorist scares in the interior of the united states
Two Jordanian individuals were arrested at the Marine Corps Base
Quantico on May 3, 2024. According to the police incident report, they
attempted to enter at a 100 percent identification checkpoint while
driving a delivery truck en route to the Quantico post office. Guards
stopped the truck, and the drivers handed over a delivery itinerary, a
Virginia operator's license, and a Jordanian passport. The guards asked
if the drivers had base access and they replied that they did not. The
guards instructed the drivers to drive toward a vehicle inspection and
visitor check areas. However, the truck was not stopping, so the guards
activated the final denial barriers, and the vehicle stopped before the
barrier. The 2 Jordanians were arrested for trespassing and 1 of them
was initially flagged on a terrorist watch list, but that was an
erroneous match.\13\ There is no material or other evidence indicating
a terrorist plot and the police incident report did not mention any
ramming attack. Thus, the trespassing case in Quantico, Virginia, is
not evidence of terrorism.\14\
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
\13\ Kate Bo Lillis and Josh Campbell, `` `ISIS Isn't Done with
Us': Arrested Tajiks Highlight U.S. Fears of Terror Attack on U.S.,''
CNN, June 14, 2024.
\14\ Alex Nowrasteh, ``A Foreign-Born Terrorist Could Cross the
Southwest Border,'' Alex Nowrasteh's Deep Dives, July 9, 2024.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Eight Tajik men who crossed the U.S.-Mexico border in 2023 and 2024
were arrested in early June 2024 on immigration charges after the
Government learned they may have had contacts with ISIS or contacts
with people who had potential ties to ISIS.\15\ There was no evidence
to suggest that a specific targeted attack was planned, no evidence of
an imminent threat to the homeland, and there have been no terrorism
charges filed against them.\16\
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
\15\ Pat Milton, Robert Legare, Nicole Sganga, Camilo Montoyo-
Galvez, ``8 Arrests Men With Ties to ISIS Feared to Have Been Plotting
Potential Terrorist Attack in U.S., Sources said,'' CBS News, June 26,
2024.
\16\ Pat Milton, Robert Legare, Nicole Sganga, Camilo Montoyo-
Galvez, ``8 Arrests Men With Ties to ISIS Feared to Have Been Plotting
Potential Terrorist Attack in U.S., Sources said,'' CBS News, June 26,
2024.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
The on-going war between Israel and Hamas has raised terrorism
concerns in the United States. Canadian police arrested Pakistani
citizen and Canadian resident Muhammad Shahzeb Khan in September in
connection with a complaint filed in the Southern District of New
York.\17\ The complaint alleged that he was planning a mass shooting,
which was uncovered after Khan began communicating with 2 undercover
officers on-line about his plot. Khan is only charged with attempting
to supply material support and resources to a foreign terrorist
organization. In March 2024, Lebanon-born Basel Bassel Ebbadi was
arrested by Border Patrol crossing the U.S.-Mexico frontier and almost
immediately said, ``I'm going to try to make a bomb,'' and shortly
thereafter said he had been trying to flee Lebanon and Hezbollah
because he ``didn't want to kill people'' and ``once you're in, you can
never get out.''\18\ Ebbadi will soon be deported without terrorism
charges.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
\17\ Department of Justice, ``Pakistani National Charged for
Plotting Terrorist Attack in New York City in Support of ISIS,'' Press
Release, September 6, 2024.
\18\ Jennie Taer, ``Illegal migrant from Lebanon caught at border
admitted he's a Hezbollah terrorist hoping `to make a bomb'--and was
headed for N.Y.,'' New York Post, March 17, 2024.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
There are cases of similar apprehensions. Border Patrol should
continue to be on the lookout and CBP should continue to improve its
screening and vetting capabilities.\19\ However, it's important to note
that the border security challenges faced by Israel and the United
States are incomparable.\20\ Most relevant here is that no terrorists
have ever illegally crossed the U.S.-Mexico border and committed an
attack on U.S. soil while approximately 3,000 crossed Israel's border
last October and murdered more than 1,200 Israelis.\21\
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
\19\ Jennie Taer, ``Palestinian whose name appears on terror
watchlist captured at southern border,'' New York Post, August 14,
2024; U.S. Department of Homeland Security, Office of Inspector
General, ``DHS Needs to Improve Its Screening and Vetting of Asylum
Seekers and Noncitizens Applying for Admission into the United
States,'' Report No. OIG-24-27, June 2024.
\20\ Alex Nowrasteh, ``Don't Conflate U.S. and Israeli Border
Security Challenges,'' Cato at Liberty blog, October 18, 2023.
\21\ Emanuel Fabian and Gianluca Pacchiani, ``IDF Estimates 3,000
Hamas Terrorists Invaded Israel in Oct. 7 Onslaught,'' The Times of
Israel, November 1, 2023.
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terrorism screening dataset encounters on the southwest border
Customs and Border Protection (CBP) publishes statistics on the
number of encounters of non-U.S. citizens encountered by Border Patrol
between ports of entry (POE).\22\ People encountered by Border Patrol
are screened through the Terrorism Screening Dataset (TSDS).* CBP
updates the number of positive hits frequently as part of its data
releases. Although the published data only go back to 2017, there is a
long-term increase in the number of non-U.S. citizens encountered by
Border Patrol who return positive hits in the TSDS, rising from 2 in
2017 to 100 through the end of August 2024 (Table 2).
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
* The TSDS replaced the Terrorism Screen Database (TSDB) in 2021.
Most pre-2021 documents that reference TSDB remain valid and can be
understood as referencing the TSDS.
\22\ ``CBP Enforcement Statistics,'' U.S. Customs and Border
Protection.
TABLE 2.--BORDER PATROL TERRORISM SCREENING DATASET ENCOUNTERS, 2017-2024 YTD
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Southwest Border Patrol
Fiscal Year Border Northern Total Encounters
(SWB) Border (SWB)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2017........................................................... 2 0 2 303,916
2018........................................................... 6 0 6 396,579
2019........................................................... 0 3 3 851,508
2020........................................................... 3 0 3 458,088
2021........................................................... 15 1 16 1,734,686
2022........................................................... 98 0 98 2,378,944
2023........................................................... 169 3 172 2,063,692
2024 YTD....................................................... 100 2 102 1,293,375
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Source: Customs and Border Protection as of August 2024.
There are several reasons why these data do not indicate a threat
of increased terrorist attacks on U.S. soil. First, the data quality is
suspect and includes many false positives. For instance, the Texas
Department of Public Safety (DPS) arrested a 29-year-old Iranian
national named Alireza Heidari at a traffic stop in Val Verde County,
Texas, in late 2022 or early 2023 as he was being smuggled with other
illegal immigrants.\23\ DPS handed Heidari over to Border Patrol, who
then initially identified Heidari as a match for somebody on the TSDS,
which the media reported as such.\24\ After further data analysis, DHS
announced that Heidari was not a match and was a false positive.\25\ It
is unclear whether Heidari's false positive was reported in CBP's
published statistics on TSDS hits. Errors such as ``[f]alse positives
are an inevitable consequence of any screening program,'' and have been
known to exist in the TSDS, although there is not much recent research
on this issue.\26\ Most Government investigations of errors in the TSDS
are primarily concerned with reducing false negatives and they pay less
attention to reducing false positives.\27\
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
\23\ Luke Gentile, ``Iranian immigrant on terror watchlist detained
near southern border: Report,'' Washington Examiner, February 1, 2023.
\24\ Luke Gentile, ``Iranian immigrant on terror watchlist detained
near southern border: Report,'' Washington Examiner, February 1, 2023.
\25\ Bill Melugin and Adam Shaw, ``Iranian illegal immigrant caught
at border not on terror watchlist after further vetting: DHS
official,'' Fox News, February 1, 2023.
\26\ Paul Rosenzweig, ``The Use of Commercial Data to Reduce False
Positives in Screening Programs,'' Washington, DC: Department of
Homeland Security, 2005.
\27\ ``Review of the Terrorist Screening Center,'' U.S. Department
of Justice Office of the Inspector General, June 2005; ``Follow-Up
Audit of the Terrorist Screening Center,'' U.S. Department of Justice
Office of the Inspector General, September 2007; ``Audit of the Federal
Bureau of Investigation's Management of Terrorist Watchlist
Nominations,'' U.S. Department of Justice Office of the Inspector
General, March 2014.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Second, few people in the TSDS are terrorists. TSDS includes known
and suspected terrorists (KSTs), which is a group of people less
dangerous than it sounds. According to the FBI, a known terrorist is
``an individual whom the U.S. Government knows is engaged, has been
engaged, or who intends to engage in terrorism and/or terrorist
activity, including an individual (a) who has been charged, arrested,
indicted, or convicted for a crime related to terrorism by U.S.
Government or foreign government authorities; or (b) identified as a
terrorist or member of a designated foreign terrorist organization
pursuant to statute, Executive Order or international legal obligation
pursuant to a United Nations Security Council Resolution.''\28\ A
suspected terrorist is ``an individual who is reasonably suspected to
be, or has been, engaged in conduct constituting, in preparation for,
in aid of, or related to terrorism and/or terrorist activities based on
an articulable and reasonable suspicion [emphasis added].''\29\
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
\28\ ``Terrorist Screening Center: Frequently Asked Questions,''
U.S. Department of Justice, April 11, 2016.
\29\ ``Terrorist Screening Center: Frequently Asked Questions,''
U.S. Department of Justice, April 11, 2016.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
The inclusion of individuals in the TSDS who have undertaken
actions that are ``related to terrorism and/or terrorist activities''
leads to more people being added to the TSDS than is likely warranted.
After all, ``related to'' is open-ended and causes vague talk of
``ties'' or ``links'' between people being mistaken for actual evidence
of terrorism. Even worse, the process of adding an individual to the
TSDS inflates the numbers. Originators at Federal agencies nominate
individuals for inclusion as KSTs in the TSDS. Next, analysts at the
National Counter Terrorism Center (NCTC) or the FBI vet the nominees.
NCTC has access to another database known as the Terrorist Identities
Datamart Environment (TIDE) which is the Government's ``central
repository of information on international terrorist identities.''\30\
Not all identities in TIDE are included in the TSDS. To make it into
the TSDS, a nomination vetted by the NCTC or FBI must (1) meet the
``reasonable suspicion watchlisting standard'' and (2) have sufficient
identifiers to distinguish between individuals. Those sufficient
identifiers must include at least 1 piece of biographic information
like a first name or birthdate.\31\ The Terrorism Screening Center
(TSC) verifies whether the person should be included under some
circumstances.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
\30\ See page 4: Jerome P. Bjelopera, Bart Elias, and Alison
Siskin, ``The Terrorist Screening Database and Preventing Terrorist
Travel,'' Congressional Research Service, November 7, 2016. https://
sgp.fas.org/crs/terror/R44678.pdf.
\31\ See page 6: Jerome P. Bjelopera, Bart Elias, and Alison
Siskin, ``The Terrorist Screening Database and Preventing Terrorist
Travel,'' Congressional Research Service, November 7, 2016.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
A recent overview of the Government's terrorist watch-listing
process and procedures defined the reasonable suspicion standard as:
``The reasonable suspicion standard has been met when, based on the
totality of the circumstances, there is reasonable suspicion that the
person is engaged, has been engaged, or intends to engage in conduct
constituting, in preparation for, or in aid or in furtherance of
terrorism and/or terrorist activities. This includes taking into
consideration any aggravating or mitigating factors that may
contextualize or attenuate an individual's association to
terrorism.''\32\
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
\32\ ``Overview of the U.S. Government's Terrorist Watchlisting
Process and Procedures,'' Federal Bureau of Investigation, April 2024,
p. 3.
The reasonable suspicion standard and its exceptions are well
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
summed up by the Congressional Research Service:
``Articulable facts form the building blocks of the reasonable
suspicion standard undergirding the nomination of suspected terrorists.
Sometimes the facts involved in identifying an individual as a possible
terrorist are not enough on their own to develop a solid foundation for
a nomination. In such cases, investigators and intelligence analysts
make rational inferences regarding potential nominees. The TSC vets all
nominations, and when it concludes that the facts, bound with rational
inferences, hold together to form a reasonable determination that the
person is suspected of having ties to terrorist activity, the person is
included in the TSDB. In the nomination process, guesses or hunches
alone are not supposed to lead to reasonable suspicion. Likewise, one
is not supposed to be designated a known or suspected terrorist based
solely on activity protected by the First Amendment or race, ethnicity,
national origin, and religious affiliation.''\33\
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
\33\ Jerome P. Bjelopera, Bart Elias, and Alison Siskin, ``The
Terrorist Screening Database and Preventing Terrorist Travel,''
Congressional Research Service, November 7, 2016, pp. 5-6.
Christopher Piehota, the former director of the TSC, testified that
individuals can be included in the TSDS without a reasonable suspicion.
He said, ``There are limited exceptions to the reasonable suspicion
requirement, which exist to support immigration and border screening by
the Department of State and Department of Homeland Security.''\34\ In
other words, the TSDS includes individuals who did not meet even this
flimsy reasonable suspicion standard. Of the 1,558,710 nominations to
the TSDS from fiscal year 2009-fiscal year 2013, 14,183 (0.9 percent)
were rejected.\35\ As of February 2017, TIDE contained about 1.6
million people and 99 percent were neither U.S. citizens nor permanent
residents.\36\ From 2011 to 2017, NCTC deleted about 228,000 people
from TIDE.\37\ The Government's April 2024 overview of terrorist watch
list process and procedures confirms this lower standard for
immigration enforcement.\38\
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
\34\ Christopher M. Piehota, ``Safeguarding Privacy and Civil
Liberties While Keeping Our Skies Safe: Hearings before the Committee
on Homeland Security,'' 113th Cong., 2d sess., September 1, 2014.
\35\ Jerome P. Bjelopera, Bart Elias, and Alison Siskin, ``The
Terrorist Screening Database and Preventing Terrorist Travel,''
Congressional Research Service, November 7, 2016, p. 7.
\36\ ``Terrorist Identities Datamart Environment (TIDE),'' National
Counterterrorism Center, 2017.
\37\ ``Terrorist Identities Datamart Environment (TIDE),'' National
Counterterrorism Center, 2017.
\38\ ``Overview of the U.S. Government's Terrorist Watchlisting
Process and Procedures,'' Federal Bureau of Investigation, April 2024,
footnote 7.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Third, many individuals who are in the TSDS are not affiliated with
foreign terrorist organizations (FTOs) that pose a threat to the U.S.
homeland. CBP does not disclose the nationalities of immigrants who
were a match for the terror watchlist. However, data released to the
Washington Examiner showed that 25 of the 27 KSTs arrested by Border
Patrol in the first 6 months of 2022 were citizens of Colombia and
likely members or former members of FARC (which was delisted as an FTO
in 2021), Segunda Marquetalia, the United Self Defense Forces of
Colombia (delisted as an FTO in 2021), or the National Liberation
Army.\39\ For instance, Border Patrol apprehended Isnardo Garcia-Amado
in Arizona in early 2022 and released him into the country on April 18,
2022.\40\ Three days later, Garcia-Amado was flagged by the TSC as a
positive hit on the TSDS. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE)
arrested him on May 6, 2022.\41\ There is no indication that he
intended or was involved in any terrorism.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
\39\ ``Foreign Terrorist Organizations,'' U.S. Department of State
Bureau of Counterterrorism. Anna Giaritelli, ``Broken Border: Terrorist
watch list arrests spike as migrants flock to U.S. from farther
countries,'' Washington Examiner, September 20, 2022.
\40\ Bill Melugin and Adam Sabes, ``Border Patrol released
suspected terrorist who crossed into U.S. illegally, ICE took weeks to
rearrest him,'' Fox News, May 23, 2023; Anders Hagstrom and Bill
Melugin, ``Border agents confirm 1.2 million `gotaway' migrants under
Biden administration,'' Fox News, January 22, 2023.
\41\ ``CBP Released a Migrant on a Terrorist Watchlist, and ICE
Faced Information Sharing Challenges Planning and Conducting the Arrest
(REDACTED),'' Department of Homeland Security Office of the Inspector
General, June 28, 2023.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
There has never been a terrorist attack committed on U.S. soil by
Colombian groups, there is no evidence that they have ever intended to
target the U.S. homeland, and no foreign-born person from Colombia has
ever committed, planned, attempted, or been convicted of attempting to
commit terrorism on U.S. soil.
Fourth, prosecutors have not filed terrorism charges against anyone
who entered between a POE and who was flagged by the TSDS. There have
been no attacks committed or thwarted by an individual who was flagged
by the TSDS and entered between a POE. That's evidence of an
overinclusive watch list, a small terrorist threat, effective law
enforcement, excellent deterrence, all four factors in combination, or
others.
special-interest aliens
DHS defines special-interest aliens (SIA) as:
``[A] non-U.S. person who, based on an analysis of travel patterns,
potentially poses a national security risk to the United States or its
interests. Often such individuals or groups are employing travel
patterns known or evaluated to possibly have a nexus to terrorism. DHS
analysis includes an examination of travel patterns, points of origin,
and/or travel segments that are tied to current assessments of national
and international threat environments.''\42\
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
\42\ ``MYTH/FACT: Known and Suspected Terrorists/Special Interest
Aliens,'' Department of Homeland Security, released January 7, 2019.
According to a recent Daily Caller News Foundation article, Border
Patrol agents encountered 25,627 SIAs in fiscal year 2022, with 60
percent of them coming from Turkey.\43\ Every Turk encountered by
Border Patrol in fiscal year 2022 was counted as an SIA if the Daily
Caller report is to be believed--all 15,356 encountered along the U.S.-
Mexico border or all 15,360 of them encountered nationwide. It is
likely that every illegal border crosser from Uzbekistan, Bangladesh,
Syria, Iraq, and perhaps other countries was counted as an SIA.\44\
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
\43\ Jennie Taer, ``EXCLUSIVE: `A Nexus To Terrorism': Illegals
Flagged As Potential National Security Risks Soared Nearly 600 percent
In Last Year,'' Daily Caller, October 3, 2022.
\44\ Jennie Taer, ``EXCLUSIVE: `A Nexus To Terrorism': Illegals
Flagged As Potential National Security Risks Soared Nearly 600 percent
In Last Year,'' Daily Caller, October 3, 2022.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Another Daily Caller article claimed that CBP flagged 74,904
illegal migrants nationwide for potentially posing risks to national
security between October 2022 and August.\45\ That is almost the same
number of illegal immigrants who are from specifically-listed countries
outside of the Western Hemisphere who were encountered nationwide by
Border Patrol (75,549).\46\ The difference is likely a result of a
rounding error by Daily Caller's source or the reporter.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
\45\ Jennie Taer, ``EXCLUSIVE: Feds Flagged Nearly 75,000 Illegal
Migrants As Potential National Security Risks,'' Daily Caller,
September 1, 2023.
\46\ ``Nationwide Encounters,'' U.S. Customs and Border Protection,
2023.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
In practice, the SIA definition corresponds to illegal immigrants
from specific countries of origin.\47\ In other words, the SIA
designation is a fancy label for ``illegal immigration from a country
that could have terrorists'' and nothing more. The SIA designation is
not the result of serious analysis, an understanding of individual
behavior being correlated with terrorist activity, or anything deeper.
As a result, SIA is not a metric that should seriously be considered
when analyzing terrorist threats along the border.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
\47\ Alex Nowrasteh, ``Terrorists Are Not Crossing the Mexican
Border,'' Cato at Liberty (blog), March 18, 2021; Jennie Taer,
``EXCLUSIVE: `A Nexus To Terrorism': Illegals Flagged As Potential
National Security Risks Soared Nearly 600 percent In Last Year,'' Daily
Caller, October 3, 2022.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
As DHS makes clear:
``This does not mean that all SIAs are `terrorists,' but rather that
the travel and behavior of such individuals indicates a possible nexus
to nefarious activity (including terrorism) and, at a minimum, provides
indicators that necessitate heightened screening and further
investigation. The term SIA does not indicate any specific derogatory
information about the individual--and DHS has never indicated that the
SIA designation means more than that.''\48\
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
\48\ ``MYTH/FACT: Known and Suspected Terrorists/Special Interest
Aliens,'' Department of Homeland Security, released January 7, 2019.
No SIA apprehended by Border Patrol has committed an attack on U.S.
soil, which means that nobody has been killed or wounded by an SIA
terrorist.
reducing illegal immigration and border chaos
The chaos caused by illegal immigration is still a problem along
the U.S.-Mexico border even if the terrorist threat is miniscule. The
solution is to expand legal immigration for workers at every skill
level for families, refugees, lawful permanent residents, temporary
migrants, and other categories. The United States has a very
restrictive legal immigration system.\49\ Compared to other developed
countries, the foreign-born share of the U.S. population is 35th out of
47 (Table 3). The United States is in 40th place only counting legal
admissions. The median foreign-born share of the population in rich
countries is over 21 percent, but just 15 percent here. By increasing
lawful immigration, the U.S. Government would drive would-be illegal
immigrants into the legal market. A shrunken black market would allow
Border Patrol and other law enforcement agencies to focus on actual
problems rather than trying to interrupt market forces. Furthermore,
more legal immigration would allow the Government to regulate and
control the flow of immigrants to the United States. Congress can't
regulate an illegal market; it can only regulate a legal one.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
\49\ David J. Bier, ``Why Legal Immigration is Nearly Impossible,''
Cato Institute Policy Analysis no. 950, June 13, 2023.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
We know expanding legal immigration works because of recent
experiences with parole. The parole program Uniting for Ukraine, which
was implemented in May 2022, reduced the total number of Ukrainians
coming to the U.S.-Mexico border by 99.9 percent from April 2022 to
July 2023. Almost the entirety of that collapse occurred in May 2022,
the first month of the program. Similar parole programs for migrants
fleeing Venezuela, Cuba, Nicaragua, and Haiti also reduced illegal
entries. Venezuelan illegal entries fell 66 percent from September 2022
to July 2023. From December 2022 to July 2023, illegal entries from
Haitians fell 77 percent, 98 percent from Cubans, and 99 percent from
Nicaraguans.\50\ Parole is a great short-term stop-gap measure.
Immigration liberalization is the only sustainable long-term fix to
border chaos and illegal immigration.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
\50\ ``Nationwide Encounters,'' U.S. Customs and Border Protection.
conclusion
Terrorism poses a risk to Americans' lives, liberty, and private
property. However, there is very little evidence that foreign-born
terrorists have crossed or are crossing the U.S.-Mexico border. The
evidence that terrorists are crossing the border is of such low quality
that we can safely discount much of it. This fact could always change,
and the future is unknowable, but available information indicates that
foreign-born terrorists seeking to cross the U.S.-Mexico border is at
most a very small and manageable threat. The scale of this small threat
becomes especially obvious when compared to the myriad threats that
face the United States internationally and domestically, or even the
threat of normal homicide. The chaos along the U.S.-Mexico border is a
travesty, but it will only be solved by expanding legal permanent
immigration and temporary migration opportunities for families,
humanitarian immigrants, and workers of every skill level. Only then
will the flow of illegal border crossers diminish and allow Border
Patrol to get control over the border, which will further reduce the
already small chance of terrorists trying to cross the U.S.-Mexico
border.
appendix
Those 230 foreign-born terrorists include those who committed
attacks on U.S. soil, those who planned or conspired to commit attacks
and were thwarted by law enforcement before carrying out their attacks,
those who committed violent crimes domestically to fund terrorism even
if they never committed the actual terrorist attack or planned to do
so, and threatened attacks if they made an actual effort to commit an
attack, had bomb-making experience, or if they made it appear as if
they committed the attack through a hoax.\51\ Their immigration status
is determined by their initial immigration status when they first
arrived on U.S. soil, a choice necessary because immigrants and
migrants often adjust their statuses multiple times after arrival. I
made this methodological choice because their initial immigration
status is the first and most important point of potential security
failure that could expose Americans to harm. For example, Faisal
Shahzad is counted in my data as on a student visa because he initially
entered on that visa and then obtained an H-1B visa before his
unsuccessful attempt at setting off a car bomb in Times Square in 2010.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
\51\ Alex Nowrasteh, ``Terrorism and Immigration: A Risk Analysis,
1975-2023,'' Cato Institute Policy Analysis no. 972, April 9, 2024.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
The only exception to my methodological rule is for those seeking
asylum in the United States--they are counted under the asylum visa if
they applied for asylum shortly after entering the United States. That
exception is important because those individuals usually make their
asylum claim at the U.S. border or after they have entered on another
visa, often with the intention of applying for asylum.
The number of murders and injuries committed by foreign-born
terrorists includes those murdered or injured in the attacks, those who
died afterward because of their injuries, and those accidentally killed
or injured by police or security forces responding directly to the
terrorist attack. The terrorists who died or who were injured in the
attacks are not included as victims. If a foreign-born terrorist
commits an attack with the aid of a native-born American, the foreign-
born terrorist is credited with all the deaths and injuries committed
in the attack. If multiple foreign-born terrorists commit an attack, I
divide all the deaths and injuries equally among the foreign-born
terrorists. Data on the identities of those terrorists, their visa
status upon entry, countries or origin, ideology, the number of their
victims, and other information comes from many different data
sources.\52\
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
\52\ Alex Nowrasteh, ``Terrorism and Immigration: A Risk Analysis,
1975-2023,'' Cato Institute Policy Analysis no. 972, April 9, 2024.
Mr. Pfluger. I thank the witnesses for their valuable
testimony and Members for their upcoming questions. Members of
the subcommittee may have some additional questions for the
witnesses, and we would ask that witnesses respond in writing
pursuant to committee rule VII(D). The hearing record will open
for 10 days. Without objection, we will get into the questions.
I now recognize myself for myself 5 minutes of questioning.
I will start with Dr. Brown.
Dr. Brown, it sounds like there is 0.000 percent chance of
a terror attack happening, even though we have 382 people who
have entered, so when talking about base rates, I think it is
also important to talk about the fact that we had 11 people
that matched the terror watch list between 2017 and 2020 and
now we have 382.
From your time working as a military adviser in DHS to now,
what has changed in this period of time to cause the massive
increase? That is just the ones that we know about.
Ms. Brown. Mr. Congressman, in my opinion, it is the change
of policy that has emboldened the terrorists to come to our
borders more so than they ever have before. While I was serving
in the administration, there was this consolidated effort not
only with action on the ground, but most importantly, with
policies at the Federal level to ensure that we take great
steps to close our border and discourage folks from entering
illegally.
This is nothing to do with legal immigration. It is all
about the illegal entry. There was a clear message sent that
that was not going to be tolerated. Since the administration
change, there has been a clear message sent to include Day 1 of
the current administration that those policies were no longer
going to be enforced and that it was a much more open society.
I know that in my very first town hall with the now-
Secretary of Homeland Security, I asked the question what has
changed since the election in November to January 2021? Because
the numbers on our border had increased so dramatically, and
the response was well, there are situations in their home
countries.
Then I asked again more specifically what specifically has
changed? Because from my analysis, there is--nothing has
changed so dramatically over the last 4 months in any of the
nations of which we had our illegal aliens entering, other than
the change of administration here in the United States. My
question was removed from the chat even though I put it in
twice and it was refused to be answered. So in my opinion, it
is the pull factors and attitude of the administration.
Mr. Pfluger. Thank you, Dr. Brown.
Mr. Healy, I will go to you. One of the issues that we
found on our Congressional travel to North Africa and the
Middle East was the use of private air charters as a way for
terrorist cells and organized criminal organizations to bring
people to either South America or Central America that have now
made their way into the United States.
Can you talk about your experiences investigating this and
shed some light on what is happening and how they are getting
into the--through the Southwest Border and into this country.
Mr. Healy. I have to agree with Dr. Brown. I am a numbers
person, and I am concerned about numbers. I am concerned about
1 terrorist threat and 1 terrorist. I worked as an undercover
FBI agent and spent several months with a domestic terrorist
group, the Montana Freemen, and lived with them for several
months.
What you are dealing with, whether you are talking about
percentages and numbers, is that there is a difference with a
terrorist threat and terrorist action. I investigated hundreds
of bank robberies and no one cared, but when one terrorist like
Faisal Shahzad tries to blow up a bomb at Times Square,
everything changes.
So it is not a question--for me, it's always been a
question of numbers. The issue is that, you know, everything
seemed to be working 4 or 5 years ago and they shut the border
down, and I talked with friends at the terrorist screening
center. They said the numbers were workable and we could screen
it.
The whole process with the terrorist screening center and
with the Border Patrol is we have to have the opportunity and
the time to sit down and talk to these individuals and identify
who they are and how they work against the United States.
Mr. Pfluger. Let me ask another question. Are you worried
about a terrorist attack in this country because of the open-
border policies and 382-plus people that match the terror watch
list?
Mr. Healy. When I was director of the terrorist screening
center, I was concerned about encounters of people that we
didn't know were in the United States. I identified
specifically encounters with law enforcement officers and if we
had open cases on them.
Typically, we would have 1 per month. That 1 per month that
we had for 12 I lost sleep over until an FBI agent initiated a
case to work it so that somebody was watching this individual
and making sure that he wasn't--he was not going to do a
terrorist act.
So yes, when the numbers go from 14 to 380, that is not
manageable. When the numbers go from 2 million gotaways and the
gotaways primarily are looking for I don't want to be seen,
yes. So I am concerned at the state of the United States right
now.
Mr. Pfluger. Thank you. My time has expired. The Chair now
recognizes the gentleman from California, Mr. Correa.
Mr. Correa. Thank you again to our witnesses for your fine
testimony.
Mr. Healy, you are a numbers man, so I want to put up right
now this anti-defamation heat map, if I can, of domestic
terrorism attacks in the United States. Does this concern you?
Mr. Healy. Yes, absolutely.
Mr. Correa. You said you were part of that Montana
operation. So we should also be focusing on domestic terrorism
as well.
Mr. Healy. Yes, sir.
Mr. Correa. Given the attacks in the United States from
domestic terrorists, this should be one of our priorities, but
this committee has not had any hearings on domestic terrorism.
An American life is an American life lost irrespective of if it
is a foreign or domestic terrorist, but the probability based
on the numbers is here. OK? What just happened in Ohio is here
from individuals from the United States motivating that kind of
behavior.
Sir, I want to ask you, can you put into context the threat
Americans face from migrants? I mean, compare and contrast.
Where should we invest our resources when it comes to
protecting Americans from terrorist attacks?
Mr. Nowrasteh. Sir, to be very clear, the threat from
terrorism overall is a relatively small component of the total
threat to the life, liberty, and property of Americans.
However, since 9/11, it is important to point out that through
the year 2017, which is my most recent numbers on this, 41
people have been murdered by attacks committed by foreign-born
terrorists through 2017 from after 9/11 and 149 people murdered
by native-born Americans----
Mr. Correa. Let me say if I--I am sorry to interrupt. I
don't have much time. But I want to be clear. We are not
minimizing the threat of foreign attacks on our soil. All of us
remember 9/11. I just want to make sure that we have a 360-
degree view of what the challenges are for us Americans in this
country. That is what we are paid to do, to make sure we
protect American lives.
We mentioned 382 on the terrorist watch list that have
been, I guess, arrested or identified. How many of those are
from the Colombia civil war, the FARC list? I say that to you,
because I have gone to the homeland security targeting center
and there are a lot of folks that are arrested at the borders
that should be that are on this watch list, but the president
of Colombia today would be classified as a terrorist because he
was part of that revolution 40 years ago. It is OK, but I think
we need to focus our resources on the real threats, and they
are emerging on a daily basis.
Just a couple of hours ago, Mr. Chairman, I was at an Aspen
Institute meeting with General James Jones, former national
security adviser, 40-year marine, and you know what he said the
big issue right now in the world that is motivating people to
move?
Ms. Brown, you talked about the pull. I think he was
talking about the push. He talked about food insecurity. He
said the world is not doing well post-COVID. There is hunger.
There are children starving around the world and we are not
doing well. He said that in the context of a national security
adviser saying this thing is--this is a root cause of a lot of
this migration.
There is a lot of other reasons, but the point is we, as a
Nation, have to focus to make sure people are not motivated to
come to this country because of hunger. If I look at everybody
in this room here today, I bet you that was one of the
motivating factors for our ancestors to come to America. You
are starving in Ireland, you don't have enough food, potato
famine, or God knows what else you are running away from in
your home. We need to focus on that, and we don't do enough of
a job to do that.
We will continue to build a wall on the Southern Border
that started with democratic President Clinton, God knows how
many years ago, 20 years ago. We will probably start doing the
same thing in the Northern Border. You talk to the Canadians
and they are pissed off with all the stuff that is going north
from Fentanyl, guns. So hopefully we can sit down and
rationally think through this. OK?
What we have right now are refugees at the border. What we
have working, feeding our community in this country are farm
workers that have been here in this country 20, 30 years that
don't have a way to get a green card. The challenge that we
have, which would be No. 1 here, is terrorism. Three buckets
that are always mixed into 1, and if we don't figure out the
facts, we are not going to be accurately taking care of these
challenges.
Thank you, Mr. Chair, and I yield.
Mr. Pfluger. Gentleman's time has expired. The Chair now
recognizes the gentleman from Louisiana, Mr. Higgins, for his
questions.
Mr. Higgins. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I appreciate the witnesses for being here. I am going to
attempt to drill down into the so-called gotaways, called
runners on the borders, gotaways. I am going to ask each of you
to clarify.
Dr. Brown, you had stated in your opening statement that of
more concern is the upwards of 2 million gotaways and unknown
number of undetected aliens that have entered the United States
since 2021. Is that part of your opening statement, ma'am?
Ms. Brown. Yes, sir.
Mr. Higgins. OK. So you stand by that number, upwards of 2
million?
Ms. Brown. Yes.
Mr. Higgins. Yes, ma'am. Thank you.
Mr. Healy, you stated in your opening statement gotaways
for fiscal years 2021 through 2024 year-to-date total over 2
million. Former chief of Border Patrol testified this figure is
underreported by at least 20 percent, so you conclude it is
closer to 2.5 million?
Mr. Healy. Two-point-four million.
Mr. Higgins. OK. Appreciate you being specific. It seems to
be a concurrence between 2 experts that there is well over 2
million gotaways have come into our country across the Southern
Border.
Mr. Healy. Yes, if you take----
Mr. Higgins. You think that is a reasonable assessment?
Mr. Healy. Yes.
Ms. Brown. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Mr. Nowrasteh, do you concur that is probably
a reasonable assessment?
Mr. Nowrasteh. It is a reasonable assessment.
Mr. Higgins. OK. Thank you very much. So real fascinating
gentleman, Dr. Nowrasteh, Mr. Nowrasteh. I will just ask you,
you feel like it is all cool at the border?
Mr. Nowrasteh. Absolutely not. It is a chaotic and out of
control----
Mr. Higgins. That was my question. I appreciate you
clarifying it was chaotic and out of control. So clearly you
don't support open-border policies?
Mr. Nowrasteh. An open border with no checks? No. No, I
don't.
Mr. Higgins. Do you support a border that is controlled by
the cartels?
Mr. Nowrasteh. No, I do not.
Mr. Higgins. OK. Well, you recognize that criminal cartels
control 100 percent of the Mexican side of our Southern Border,
correct?
Mr. Nowrasteh. They have a lot of control down there.
Mr. Higgins. They certainly do. So let's talk about the
gotaways, because America is fascinated by your perspective
here. We see it and feel the impact. I mean America has
suffered generational trauma since January 2021. One hundred
percent because of policy changes, not because--you still have
the same 1,954 miles of border.
You have the same vehicles and equipment capabilities and
assets, the same all-weather roads installed, the same physical
barriers, the same Border Patrol agents, the same men and women
working the same border, and yet a drastic change in illegal
crossings already in 2021.
One of the most concerning demographics amongst that wave
upon human wave of illegal immigrants coming into our country
to me as--because of my background is the people that run from
the law.
So given the fact that our Border Patrol, law enforcement
agents were transitioned from their national security role,
their law enforcement role, repelling illegal entry and
capturing those that crossed illegally as much as possible,
that transitioned to sort-of reception roles and came forward
transporting and feeding, et cetera, the gotaways, that
demographic that would be highly motivated to avoid American
law enforcement, we are talking about them paying more money to
cartels to suffer to dangerous double-time pace, very rough
terrain land, to avoid law enforcement, doesn't it stand to
reason, Mr. Nowrasteh, that those would likely be the most
dangerous people of the totality coming into our country?
Mr. Nowrasteh. It is certainly possible. We don't have a
good sense of that, but----
Mr. Higgins. What else would drive someone to do that? If
you can turn yourself in and comfortably be processed into the
country, given money, food, medical check, et cetera,
transported to wherever you want to go, why would you pay
thousands of dollars more and go through very dangerous
sometimes deadly transit into the country in order to avoid law
enforcement? Clearly, it is because you are a bad guy.
Mr. Nowrasteh. It is because a lot of them won't also be
let in through that means. They want to come to the United
States to work. The best predictor of illegal immigration is
the U.S. labor market----
Mr. Higgins. You are claiming my time.
Dr. Brown, my last question, ma'am, just tell America a
little bit what was it like in the spring of 2021 as you saw
things begin to unravel?
Mr. Pfluger. Limit this to about 20 seconds.
Ms. Brown. It was demoralizing, heartbreaking, and
unnecessary.
Mr. Higgins. Thank you for that summary, Doctor. We
appreciate you all.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Pfluger. Gentleman's time has expired. Chair now
recognizes the gentlelady from Illinois, Ms. Ramirez.
Mrs. Ramirez. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and I want to thank
the witnesses that are here today. I also want to recognize
that just last week we recognized the anniversary of the
heinous 9/11 terrorist attacks that took the lives of 2,977
people. Futures stolen for 2,977 individuals. Actually,
Congress created this committee, Homeland Security, to ensure
that we would protect the American people from terrorist
attacks.
Unfortunately, my Republican colleagues choose to use our
committee time to spew false narratives, conspiracy theories,
and racist tropes that point as immigrants as terrorists.
Immigrants like my mother and my husband as terrorists. Just to
score cheap political points.
So look, we should be using this committee to actually
discuss how we strengthen the Federal Government's ability to
prevent and respond to terrorist threats by digging into the
data and digging into the evidence. So for the next few
minutes, I actually want to do just that. I want to ensure that
data in this committee is used accurately and portrayed
accurately and I want to talk about Donald Trump's favorite
chart here, which we used yesterday.
In this chart, titled ``Illegal Immigration into the U.S.:
Biden's World Record Illegal Immigrants, Many From Prison and
Mental Institutions, Also Terrorists.'' Donald Trump has said
this chart saved his life. Yesterday, in our full committee
hearing, Republicans, my colleagues here repeatedly used this
chart to allege that the Biden administration has an open-
border policy, but this life-saving chart says, well, not what
Republicans think it says. First of all, I don't know where the
Trumpsters and Republicans of the world who like to trot out
this chart get the idea that immigration into the United States
is a ``world record,'' because recorded history is full of mass
migration, due to war, due to famine, to disease, and
opportunity in numbers so high, folks, it wouldn't even fit
into this chart. So it is not a world record.
Second, and it is almost embarrassing that I have to
educate and explain to Members of Congress and a former
President, but when someone says that they are seeking asylum
and they are coming to the United States seeking asylum, that
doesn't mean that they are literally coming from a mental
institution.
Third, as my friend, Congressman Garcia, pointed out
yesterday, Republicans and former President Trump, they don't
even know when Trump left office. This chart says that he left
April 2020. Trump actually left office in January 2021 when the
numbers were rising and higher, actually, even higher than
during Obama's second term.
Fourth, let's just keep going on this chart; the chart
itself shows that, when Trump came into office, the numbers
actually began rising. The dip in numbers where Trump claims he
left office is actually April 2020 at the height of the early
COVID-19 pandemic when, folks, migration numbers were dropped
globally. I know it is hard for you to see because you have
been reading this, and now you are finally realizing, ``Oh, my
God, I have been saying lies.'' Trump was in office for another
9 months, and those numbers actually are climbing.
Last, this month, the month that they are talking about is
not even the lowest during Trump's time in office or even in
recorded history.
Folks, facts matter, we have to stop with the
disinformation. But I guess when it comes to making charts for
the former President, that doesn't apply. I am going to tell
you: This committee is a serious committee. We have to use
facts.
So I want to use a last minute here; I want to come back to
Mr. Nowrasteh. Can you help us understand, because actually I
think some of my colleagues don't understand, why are people
coming to the United States and risking their lives the way
that they are? How does this help us economically?
Mr. Nowrasteh. The primary reason why immigrants come to
the United States historically and today, legally and
illegally, is because of job and labor market opportunities. If
you want to do a regression analysis, you can see very closely
that the job openings in the United States is closely
correlated with the number of little immigrant apprehensions
along the border and with people who were trying to come here
legally. The best pull to come into the United States has
always been the economy; it is still the economy. That is what
is pulling people in, and the rapid economic recovery after
COVID can explain more than any other factor, although some of
the other ones do matter, so it can explain more than any other
change in policy why there is such a rapid and large increase
in illegal immigration.
Mrs. Ramirez. Thank you so much.
Chairman, I yield back.
Mr. Pfluger. The gentlelady's time has expired.
The Chair now recognizes the gentleman from Texas, who
represents the longest stretch of border on the Southwest
Border and my neighbor, Mr. Gonzales.
Mr. Gonzales. Thank you, Chairman.
You know, I love charts and PowerPoints just as much as the
next person. You know a lot of people talk about the border, I
happen to represent 823 miles of it. Anyone--you cannot dispute
that there have been hundreds of people coming over on the
terrorist watch list. Anyone on the terrorist watch list is on
that list for a reason and poses a threat. I don't even want to
talk about those people. I want to talk about the people not on
the terrorist watch list that terrorize us.
I represent a district that stretches from San Antonio to
El Paso. Eagle Pass, Del Rio, Uvalde, El Paso is all in my
district. One of my concerns that I have is a rise in
Venezuelan gangs, Tren de Aragua, TDA. This is a real threat,
right? A lot of times they don't make a list, and they are
terrorizing people more than everyone else.
My first question is to you, Mr. Healy, given your
experience in the FBI during MS-13's reign on terror in the
early 2000's do you believe TDA poses a threat on a similar
scale or greater scale?
Mr. Healy. The same. What I didn't include was is that not
only terrorists were coming across the country but criminals.
The problem is that this--and it wasn't in my oral testimony
but it was in my written testimony that this involved--this
invasion that we are having right now has involved every single
FBI field office, it has involved the vast majority of their
squads, criminal squads, counterterrorism squads, counter
intelligence squads, intelligence squads, the rest of it. So
this is a serious problem and a concern.
In my district, we see it first-hand. I mean, I visited a
facility out in Pecos out in west Texas, where these criminal
aliens get housed, right, ones that have committed heinous
crimes. You try walking through a prison--that is not a fun
experience--try walking through a prison where some of the
worst of the worst illegal aliens are there waiting to be--
either their time incarcerated or be deported. I would argue
that TDA makes MS-13 look like Boy Scouts. The reason I say
that is because each criminal organization that comes always
tries to one up the one before it. They are more ruthless. They
do more murders. They do more rapes. They do more human
smuggling. They do more drugs, more guns. They are more
ruthless than the person before is why you should fear them, is
why they should grow. I see them growing tentacles in places
well beyond the border, larger cities, not only in Texas but
throughout the country. This is the danger. We are barely now
just talking about TDA as if they are similar to MS-13. They
are worse, and they are going to get a whole lot worse.
My second question here for Mr. Healy is: what strategies
can we implement to better equip law enforcement to address
this threat?
Mr. Healy. Centering it toward the border, we have got to
go back to what we did to keep them out. We have to start
there. I understand the fact that there is challenges all over
the world. I understand the fact that there is domestic
terrorism around, but the bottom line is, is that this threat
didn't have to happen. This threat could have been fixed; it
could have been adjusted. The drastic differences between 2021
and now is unmanageable.
Mr. Gonzales. One of the biggest challenges I see with TDA
in particular is they don't have specific tattoos to represent
membership. They have a variety of different identifiers.
Venezuela does not share its criminal records with Interpol.
So, oftentimes, that makes it challenging in identifying them
in the first place. So a lot of times the information that we
are getting now is a TDA member that has already committed a
crime in the United States. That is a disjustice to all the
Americans that are here that are being terrorized by these
folks that should have been caught on the front end. The other
part is, I look at it through the lens of, how you do solve the
problem. We know why it was created. I don't even want to argue
how we got here. I don't want to see any more charts. All I
care about is, how does this go away? How do we fix this? I
think one of the ways we fix this is we come together, Federal,
State, and local law enforcement all pool their resources and
go after these people, go after these Venezuelan gangs that are
terrorizing us. They may not be on the terrorist watch list.
They may not be on an encounter that we have. When I spoke to
the director of ICE, he told me there are over 10,000 known
criminal aliens loose in the United States right now. That is,
in my eyes, where we need to start, and then we go from there.
I am out of time, Chairman. With that, I yield back.
Mr. Higgins [presiding]. The gentleman yields.
The gentleman from California, Mr. Garcia, is recognized
for 5 minutes.
Mr. Garcia. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. Thank you to
our witnesses.
Counterterrorism, of course, is critical to the Department
of Homeland Security. It is important, I know, to everybody
that is here. We know that border security is an important part
of that tool. Our security professionals are hard at work,
which we have seen of course in recent arrests, and our
committees should also support that work.
I also know that we shouldn't distort national security
threats to score political points. Hopefully, no one is
interested in that. There are so many other types of extremism
and other types of major security threats that should be
focused on, whether it is mass shootings, domestic extremism,
which should be looked at by this committee.
We often, over and over again, including in this committee,
continue to demonize immigrants, continue to somehow put all of
our criminal issues on the backs of immigrants, folks like my
family, folks like myself. We should be very clear about what
actually is happening in this country and actually looking at
the data as it relates to immigrants and crime. If we are being
honest with each other, we can see that immigrants are
contributing to this country and not causing these kinds of
exaggerations that my colleagues here on this committee are
saying.
I want to start with an important data point over here, if
I can just share this really quickly. So, Mr. Nowrasteh, here
we have a chart of the annual homicide rate going back for the
last few decades. You can see it pretty clear. This is all the
way from the 1960's all the way until today. Now, looking at
this--and this is data collected by police departments and the
FBI and others--you agree the country is safer today as it
relates to homicides than in the seventies, eighties, and
nineties?
Mr. Nowrasteh. Yes, absolutely. I want to point out the
immigrant population is substantially higher today too.
Mr. Garcia. Thank you. I want to point out that, if you
look at this clearly, we are safer today than we have ever been
over the last few decades.
I do want to point out, though, in the year 2020, we do see
a dramatic spike. Do you see the spike there over here right
around the year 2020?
Mr. Nowrasteh. Yes.
Mr. Garcia. Great. Who was actually the President in 2020?
Mr. Nowrasteh. Donald Trump was the President of the United
States in 2020.
Mr. Garcia. So the largest spike that we see in actual
homicides over the last few decades is the year that Donald
Trump was actually the President of the United States. Is that
correct?
Mr. Nowrasteh. That is correct.
Mr. Garcia. Is it true that, under Donald Trump, murder
rates surged by 30 percent to the highest rates since the
nineties?
Mr. Nowrasteh. There was a very large surge in the last
year of his administration.
Mr. Garcia. Right. So here we have crime rates are going
down; homicide rates are up here. In the seventies, eighties,
and nineties, they start to decrease, and then we see the one
spike when Donald Trump was President. Then, of course, as we
go into 2021, who then got elected President then?
Mr. Nowrasteh. Joe Biden was elected.
Mr. Garcia. Since that time, if you look at this chart, is
violent crime starting then to decrease or increase once Joe
Biden became President?
Mr. Nowrasteh. It started to decrease from the elevated
level that it was.
Mr. Garcia. Thank you. So it is important to note here that
now crime is beginning to decrease. Now the Major City Chiefs
Association, which represents 60 major city police departments
in the America, including Long Beach, where I was mayor,
honored to have served and to help lead--we had over 700 police
officers, which was an incredible group of men and women.
Through this period of time in 2024 and 2023, we had actually
seen a drop in murders and killings, not just back home in
California but across the country. So, as we can see in this
chart, homicides have plummeted. We know they continue to
plummet.
I think it is important that we take the word of our police
officers and their data, what they are presenting, over what
Donald Trump is saying.
I want to show you one other chart that is important. Now,
again, sir, is it true that the incarceration rate for both
documented and even undocumented immigrants is far below the
rate for native-born citizen Americans?
Mr. Nowrasteh. Yes, it is.
Mr. Garcia. So, today, immigrants are 60 percent less
likely to be incarcerated than all other U.S.-born individuals.
Is that correct?
Mr. Nowrasteh. That is correct.
Mr. Garcia. Now, I only say this because you can see,
native-born Americans are actually committing crimes and then
going to jail at a higher rate than the immigrant population. I
see that not because we should want folks in jail. Everyone
should be accountable to the law. But this idea that immigrants
are somehow doing or causing more crime or filling up prisons
more or committing and creating more chaos across this country
is actually not true when you look at the data. So I think it
is very important that we call out the lies and the untruths
that are happening from folks that are running for President
and quite frankly also for folks that are on this committee.
We know that undocumented people, people that are here that
legal immigrants are actually committing less crime if you look
at the total number. So I want it make those points and make
sure we are talking about facts.
With that, I yield back.
Mr. Pfluger [presiding]. Thank you, Mr. Garcia.
Ms. Greene, you are recognized for 5 minutes.
Ms. Greene. Thank you. This is such an important hearing
today talking about terrorism. The definition of ``terror'' is
a feeling of extreme fear. It is a very sad day that we live in
that many Americans are living with the feeling of extreme
fear.
Currently as it stands right now, the Biden administration
does not make known the number of special-interest aliens on
the Department of Homeland Security website. This is a very
concerning figure and statistic that they are hiding from the
American people.
There have been at least--at least--73,000 special-interest
aliens arrested at or border. That is a number we know because
it was leaked to the media. The number is likely far higher
now, but we don't know that information because it does not
exist and is not provided to the American people, who, by the
way, fund the Department of Homeland Security through their
taxes.
Special-interest aliens are from a nation that promotes
terrorist activity, harbors terrorists, or poses a security
threat to the United States. This does not include the
potential special-interest aliens among the 2 million, over 2
million known gotaways. So, while we have caught at least
73,000 or more at the border, there are another over 2 million
we have no idea who they are, where they are, and what they are
planning to do in our country?
This comes along with the statistic that we have been
provided that there have been 388 illegal aliens on the
terrorist watch list caught crossing between ports of entry
since fiscal year 2021. This compares to only 14 that were
caught between fiscal year 2017 and 2020 under the Trump
administration.
I have a very important bill that, if passed and signed
into law, this bill would make the number of special-interest
aliens and countries of origin publicly available on the
Department of Homeland Security website for the American
people.
Dr. Brown, do you agree that the American people deserve to
know that number?
Ms. Brown. Yes.
Ms. Greene. Mr. Healy, do you agree they deserve to know?
Mr. Healy. Absolutely, yes.
Ms. Greene. Mr. Nowrasteh, do you agree that the American
people deserve to know how many special-interest aliens are
crossing into our country?
Mr. Nowrasteh. The American people deserve to know that and
any other number you can get out of them.
Ms. Greene. Thank you. I appreciate that.
I would also like to take just a few minutes to talk about
terror and the extreme feeling of fear, that is extreme fear.
The American people are living with fear from the amount of
people that have come across our border, and they have good
reason to do so. There are approximately an average of 300
Americans that are killed every single day from fentanyl
poisoning. That is certainly something to fear. There are
Americans that die daily from illegal alien crime and murder.
Just in the past 2 weeks, there was a mother of 3 children and
a passenger in her car were killed in car wreck from an illegal
alien that struck them at over 100 miles per hour. These are
also credible reasons to fear the illegal alien immigration
coming across our border.
However, I was quite concerned, Mr. Nowrasteh, to hear you
talk about over 3,000 Americans that have been murdered in the
past decades, and you called that a small and manageable
statistic. I would argue that every single one of those lives
should not--never have been killed. I know that you call
yourself, self-described, radical advocate for open borders.
That is on your Wikipedia page; that maybe Wikipedia is not
always right.
Mr. Nowrasteh. I didn't say that.
Ms. Greene. However, I would self-describe myself as a
radical advocate for safe and secure borders. I think it is
extremely important to make sure that all of us are on the same
page for that because not one life that has been murdered by a
terrorist can be considered small and manageable.
I would also like to talk for just a minute, if you will,
and ask you, will you consider when you are talking about jobs,
and we agree jobs are important, the economy's important. Now
the cartels are making over $13 billion a year with their jobs
coming into our country, selling drugs, making money off of
human trafficking. Would you argue that those jobs are
important in our economy, cartels jobs?
Mr. Nowrasteh. No and I think the Federal Government should
stop subsidizing them. They should stop subsidizing them by
radically expanding legal immigration so you can kill those
cartels. In the same way that Congress killed the Mafia when it
ended prohibition.
Ms. Greene. So you are advocating for wide-open borders so
that cartels can come in and sell drugs into our country.
Mr. Nowrasteh. I am advocating for legalizing immigration.
Ms. Greene. Mr. Nowrasteh, legalized immigration.
Mr. Nowrasteh, you are wanting to open the borders and
legalize cartels selling drugs. In Georgia, we have a serious
issue of cartels putting drugs inside our food supply.
Therefore, when things like lettuce and watermelons come across
the U.S.-Mexican border and make their way to the farmers'
market in Georgia, they are finding gigantic shipments of
methamphetamines, cocaine actually stuffed in shipments of
things like watermelon, lettuce, and celery. This is extremely
dangerous for people, restaurant owners, people that consume
this. This is extremely dangerous. So you are wanting to open
and legalize these jobs in the United States?
Mr. Nowrasteh. No, those are consequence of black markets.
Mr. Pfluger. I am sorry. Ms. Greene's time is up.
Ms. Greene. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Mr. Pfluger. Mr. Goldman is recognized for 5 minutes.
Mr. Goldman. Thank you. Well, I finally found something I
agree with my colleague from Georgia; she is certainly radical.
I want to focus on the subject of terrorism that is of this
hearing. For this fiscal year to date, CBP reports encountering
96 watch-listed individuals between the Southern Border ports
of entry. Let's put that in perspective: That is .007 percent
of all Border Patrol encounters in fiscal year 2024. We know
that being on the watch list is not equivalent to being a known
terrorist. There are many ways you get on that watch list and
it is certainly not determinative.
But there is no question that there is a problem at the
border. Our system cannot withstand the number of people who
are trying to get into this country. I would completely agree
with you, Mr. Nowrasteh, part of that is because the quotas for
lawful visas have not been increased in 25 to 30 years, even
though of course our population has dramatically increased, our
economy has dramatically grown. We need people to fill jobs in
this country up and down the spectrum.
I want to also just focus on a couple of things. Mr. Healy,
I will ask you, do you think that it would be helpful to
address our problems at the border if the Department of Justice
received $440 million to hire additional immigration judge
teams?
Mr. Healy. Yes.
Mr. Goldman. Do you think it would be helpful if CBP
received $3.8 billion to fund operational costs to manage and
enhance security at our Nation's borders?
Mr. Healy. Yes.
Mr. Goldman. Do you think would be helpful if CBP received
$723 million to hire additional officers and Border Patrol
agents?
Mr. Healy. Yes.
Mr. Goldman. Do you think it would be helpful if DHS
received $424 million to combat the entry of fentanyl and other
illegal narcotics from entering the United States?
Mr. Healy. Yes.
Mr. Goldman. Do you think it would be helpful if the
Immigration and Customs Enforcement received $2.55 billion to
fund transportation costs, including increased flights and
staging facilities?
Mr. Healy. Yes.
Mr. Goldman. Do you think it would be helpful if ICE
received $1.29 billion to fund an expansion of the Alternatives
to Detention Program, which would allow for immediate
enrollment at the Southwest Border to fulfill nonmandatory
detention mandates while keeping track of those who come in?
Mr. Healy. I am not sure of that direct----
Mr. Goldman. What about $4 billion for U.S. Citizens and
Immigration Services for personnel, facilities, and related
costs to meet new operational requirements, including adding
4,338 asylum officers.
Mr. Healy. I am not familiar with that either.
Mr. Goldman. Well, you are aware, of course, that asylum
applications take up to 10 years to get through. Is that right?
Mr. Healy. Yes.
Mr. Goldman. So you don't think that adding more than 4,000
asylum officers would help streamline that process and stop the
incentive for people to try to get asylum here?
Mr. Healy. With CBP, I understand the support they have,
but the reality is that, if we close the borders, we have--even
President Biden issued an Executive Order that stopped the
flow.
Mr. Goldman. Right. So all those things I just asked you
about were in the bipartisan border security bill that the
Senate had agreed to in a bipartisan way, the administration
had supported. Do you know who killed that bill?
Mr. Healy. No, I don't, but the frustration for the----
Mr. Goldman. OK, I will tell you who killed that bill;
Donald Trump killed that bill, and he was open about it. He
said he killed it because he didn't want to solve the problems
at the border that all of those things you just agreed would
help do so because he wanted to use it as a political weapon in
his campaign. So, when we are talking about immigration reform,
we can all agree that it cannot only be done by Executive
Order. President Biden had no choice but to implement an
Executive Order that forced people to come through ports of
entry if they sought asylum, which has dramatically lowered by
more than 50 percent the border crossings and encounters since
he implemented it in June. But that is not a solution. The
solution is legislation. There was legislation that the
Republicans killed.
So please do not lecture me about all of our problems at
the border when it is the Republican Party and Donald Trump who
are the ones who refuse to solve the problem.
I yield back.
Mr. Pfluger. Thank you, Mr. Goldman.
Mr. Nowrasteh. Sorry, forgive me. I apologize, sir.
Mr. Nowrasteh. Nowrasteh.
Mr. Pfluger. Nowrasteh. I am sorry. I almost really can't
see that far anymore.
So the Boston Marathon bombing, the bombing of the Twin
Towers in the 1990's, 1993, February, if I am correct, 9/11. I
consider those terrorists attacks through terrorist
organizations. I have heard some statistics from my colleagues
that that is not considered a foreign-born terrorist attack
because they were documented or registered in the United
States. Can you clarify that for me?
Mr. Nowrasteh. So, in the data that I have and have
presented in my testimony, those were all conducted by foreign-
born terrorists. So they would count under that umbrella of
terrorism committed by foreigners.
Mr. Pfluger. That have been committed in the United States.
Mr. Nowrasteh. Yes. I have a list of it 230 foreign-born
terrorists who have either committed or attempted to commit and
were convicted.
Mr. Pfluger. Because I need clarification on that, because
the challenging part for myself--who is going to speak for
Morgan here--is that I can't go home on to my folks when we are
talking about--so I am very laser-focused on the terrorist
watch list and those folks that are coming across that meet
that category, OK, because I can't say they were foreign-born
terrorists, but they were legalized in America so we can't
count that.
Mr. Nowrasteh. So they are definitely foreign-born if they
were born outside of the United States. Even if somebody is a
legal immigrant and a terrorist and becomes an American
citizen, I count them as foreign-born, just like the U.S.
Government does.
Mr. Pfluger. So, when I speak about the terrorist watch
list and those individuals that are listed on it, have you ever
been to Iraq, Afghanistan, Africa? Have you ever been to a
theater of war?
Mr. Nowrasteh. No.
Mr. Pfluger. Have you ever experienced anything
catastrophic? Have you ever been engaged in a gun fight? That
may be a silly question, but I need to know these answers.
Mr. Nowrasteh. I have had a gun pointed at me, but I have
not been involved----
Mr. Pfluger. It is an amazing experience. Isn't it?
Mr. Nowrasteh. That is a nice euphemism for it.
Mr. Pfluger. Yes, it is. I am trying to be genuine in here;
I am trying to be simple in here, I guess is the best way to
say that. So have you ever read the book or seen the
documentary ``The Terror of Beslan, the School Siege in
Russia''?
Mr. Nowrasteh. I have not seen the documentary, but I have
seen footage of that attack.
Mr. Pfluger. So that was a terrorist organization came in
and took over a school; it was a massacre, right? When I see
this list, the terror list, this is what I am talking about
here: My concern is it only takes 1; it only takes 1 terrorist
to perform an extreme act of violence.
Man, me and that man right there, Mr. Crane, have been in
multiple gun fights. Multiple VBIED explosions, multiple
suicide bombs, overseas in a theater of war. A lot of times it
was 1 person, 1. If we can do anything and everything we can to
prevent, capture, kill any terrorist that is coming in to this
country, that is what needed to happen. I walked shoulder to
shoulder with Mr. Goldman in New York City 2 weeks ago on 9/11.
The 9/11 museum is beyond humbling. I don't want anything like
that to ever happen again in this country. It seems like we--I
hate to say this, but we are getting caught into political
jargon right now. That should not happen when we are trying to
protect American citizens, period. So I am glad you clarified
the fact that we have had attacks on our country from foreign-
born entities. Moving forward, paying close attention to
getting away from the jargon that we don't need makes it easier
on us. The numbers that you rattled off, I understand you are a
statistician; they are great. But even if we are talking about
0.07 percent, that is still one person. Is that clear?
Mr. Nowrasteh. Yes, sir, it is. I am not saying do nothing.
All I am saying is don't do everything. You have lots of
different security threats. You have to allocate scarce
resources to save the greatest number of lives.
Mr. Pfluger. If we don't do everything, that one thing we
don't do is going to get us killed.
Mr. Nowrasteh. Well, I hate to be the bearer of bad news,
but it is impossible to do everything. You want to spend 100
percent of U.S. GDP on counterterrorism?
Mr. Pfluger. I don't know if you know my background or not
of that man sitting over there, but our job was to do
everything, period. That is why we were 99.9 percent
successful. Thank you for your time, sir.
Mr. Magaziner, you are recognized for 5 minutes.
Mr. Magaziner. Thank you, Chairman.
Listen, I agree; we should do everything we can to secure
the border and protect the American people. Everything should
have included passing the bipartisan border plan that Senate
Republicans, Senate Democrats, and the Harris-Biden
administration agreed to that Donald Trump and his Republican
allies killed.
Mr. Nowrasteh, are you familiar with the bipartisan border
plan that Donald Trump and the Republicans killed?
Mr. Nowrasteh. Yes, I am.
Mr. Magaziner. Is it accurate that that bipartisan border
plan that President Trump killed would have added about 1,500
Border Patrol agents?
Mr. Nowrasteh. Yes, as I understand it.
Mr. Magaziner. Is it accurate that it would have expanded
the authorities of the President to secure the border,
including by changing asylum policies, et cetera?
Mr. Nowrasteh. Yes, it would have.
Mr. Magaziner. Is it true that it would have added over 100
high-tech machines at points of entry along the border to
detect fentanyl coming into the country?
Mr. Nowrasteh. Yes, it would have.
Mr. Magaziner. Is it true that the bipartisan plan that
President Trump killed to secure the border had the endorsement
of the Border Patrol union?
Mr. Nowrasteh. As I understand it, yes.
Mr. Magaziner. Now the lead Republican negotiator of the
bipartisan border security plan that President Trump killed was
Senator Lankford from Oklahoma. Is that right?
Mr. Nowrasteh. Yes.
Mr. Magaziner. In your opinion, and I don't know the
Senator personally, but would you characterize him as a liberal
Republican, a moderate, or does he have a reputation of being a
Conservative who is serious about border security?
Mr. Nowrasteh. I have met the Senator on numerous
occasions; he is a serious and thoughtful Conservative, very
conservative, and I think represents the positions and opinions
of the people of his home State of Oklahoma very well.
Mr. Magaziner. Yes. So had you a bipartisan plan to secure
the border, negotiated by one of the most conservative Senators
in the U.S. Senate, supported by Republicans and Democrats on
its way to passage to secure the border, doing everything. What
happened?
Mr. Nowrasteh. So I was not privy to any secret phone
calls, but as I understand it, candidate Trump asked both
publicly but also mostly privately to delay that and to not
have a vote on that bill so that it would preserve a political
talking point for him.
Mr. Magaziner. That is exactly right. President Trump
wanted to have a problem he could campaign on instead of having
us doing everything that we can to keep the American people
safe. That is putting politics ahead of what is good for the
country. That is putting partisanship ahead of keeping the
American people safe, and it is despicable. It wasn't just
President Trump. It was his allies as well. I want to read a
quote from Senator Lankford, the Republican Senator from
Oklahoma who said, ``A popular commentator threatened to
destroy me if I negotiated the deal during the Presidential
election year regardless of what was in it.'' So, even if you
disagreed with some of the things that were in that bipartisan
plan, what Senator Lankford was being told was it doesn't even
matter what is in the bill, kill it. The commentator said to
Senator Lankford, quote--this is from the Senator--``I will do
whatever I can to destroy you because I do not want you to
solve this during the Presidential election.'' I mean, my God.
What are the American people supposed to make of that? The
American people want us working together in a bipartisan way.
They tried to do that in the Senate. Joe Biden and Kamala
Harris tried to work with Senator Lankford and other
Republicans and Democrats to come up with a plan to secure the
border.
That is very different from what has been happening in this
Chamber. In this Chamber, when our House Republican colleagues
came out with their border bill, they didn't accept a single
Democrat amendment. They dropped the language of the bill the
night before the markup. They didn't take a single Democratic
amendment in committee or on the floor. They passed a bad bill
that had all kinds of things in it that didn't have anything to
do with securing the border, things to ban electric vehicles at
Federal sites and denying funding to nonprofit organizations
unless they conducted citizenship tests to people that they
were serving, like crazy stuff. Rather than working together
across the aisle on a real bipartisan plan like they did in the
Senate, like the Biden-Harris administration tried to do before
President Trump came in and killed it.
So understand what is happening here. There are people in
this Congress who are serious about solving the crisis at the
border, who are serious about governing; and, unfortunately,
there are others who just take their marching orders from
Donald Trump and put his political interests ahead of what is
good for the country.
With that, I yield back.
Mr. Pfluger. Thank you, Mr. Magaziner.
Mr. Crane is recognized for 5 minutes.
Mr. Crane. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I want to clear something up. The reason that we were so
intent on killing that bill was because, in case you guys don't
remember, it would have allowed about 4,000 people in per day.
That is a problem. It would have continued to fund the NGO's I
believe that were also flying people, bussing people all over
the country. So there were a couple major nonstarters right
there for us. I know there has been a lot of talk on the other
side about that bill and how fantastic it was. I just want to
clear that up.
Now I want to turn to Mr. Nowrasteh. Did I say that
correctly, sir?
Mr. Nowrasteh. Nowrasteh.
Mr. Crane. Nowrasteh, OK.
You said, sir, regarding foreign-born terrorist threats in
the United States, it is a small and manageable threat. Is that
correct?
Mr. Nowrasteh. Yes.
Mr. Crane. Mr. Nowrasteh, do you know what a sleeper cell
is, sir?
Mr. Nowrasteh. Yes.
Mr. Crane. Can you give a definition of a what ``sleeper
cell'' is?
Mr. Nowrasteh. So it is a group of terrorists working
together who are laying low for a long period of time in
preparation for an attack that will be committed at some point
in the future.
Mr. Crane. Yes, that is actually pretty close. Good job,
sir.
You are a numbers guy. Is that correct?
Mr. Nowrasteh. Yes.
Mr. Crane. OK. Now that we have covered what sleeper cells
are, a group of terrorists or spies that are remaining inactive
within a target population until ordered to act. Mr. Healy gave
us some great numbers earlier. Under the Trump administration,
we had 14 individuals encountered at the Southern Border on the
terror watch list. Under this administration, that number
exceeds 380 at this point. Does that make you still stand by
your statement that it is a small and manageable threat?
Mr. Nowrasteh. It is a threat above zero. It is definitely
a threat, but it is still small and manageable, yes.
Mr. Crane. OK. How about gotaways? How many gotaways have
we had since this administration took office, people that
didn't get encountered, didn't get arrested at the Southern
Border?
Mr. Nowrasteh. So the estimates range we talked earlier
about 2 million. I believe Mr. Healy's estimate was up to 2.4.
I have seen estimates as low as 1.9, 1.8. It depends on the
method. I think it is fair to say about 1.7 to 2.4 range is
fair.
Mr. Crane. Yes. Mr. Nowrasteh, is there a possibility that
any of those, let's say, 1.5 to 2.5 million people that didn't
get arrested, didn't get caught, snuck in through that Southern
Border, could have been either on the terrorist watch list or
terrorists who aren't on a watch list?
Mr. Nowrasteh. It is certainly possible; the chance is
absolutely above zero.
Mr. Crane. Are you aware that we have over 100 tunnels that
CBP knows of going from Mexico into the United States of
America?
Mr. Nowrasteh. I bet there are a lot more than that.
Mr. Crane. Yes. We know of about 140 of them, but there is
probably a lot more that we don't know about. Is that correct?
Mr. Nowrasteh. Absolutely--absolutely it is a consequence
of black markets.
Mr. Crane. Do you think those tunnels could be used as
avenues to bring terrorists into this country?
Mr. Nowrasteh. It is certainly possible. We have never seen
that. We have no evidence of that, but that is certainly
possible that something like that could happen.
Mr. Crane. OK.
Mr. Healy, do you concur, do you agree with Mr. Nowrasteh's
claim that it is a small and manageable threat?
Mr. Healy. No.
Mr. Crane. No?
Mr. Healy. No.
Mr. Crane. You were in the Marine Corps, and then you were
an FBI agent for a very long time. Is that correct?
Mr. Healy. I was in the Marine Corps. I flew Harrier jump
jets for 7 years, and I was an FBI agent for 27. I worked it. I
was an undercover agent in. I helped build the Terrorist
Screening Center initially. I was their first deputy director,
and I was the director for 5 years, and I lived it every day.
Mr. Crane. How many terrorists does it take to cause a mass
casualty event?
Mr. Healy. One.
Mr. Crane. One?
Mr. Nowrasteh. One.
Mr. Crane. How important do you think it is that we do
everything possible to stop any attacks on U.S. soil?
Mr. Crane. We don't have the choice. We don't have the
choice. That is not an option, period.
Mr. Crane. Do you it think this administration is taking it
seriously at all?
Mr. Healy. I have a problem when numbers go crazy from 2021
to 2024. It is unmanageable. I worked with a team, and I
actually attended the Terrorist Screening Center memorial a
couple days, a week ago for 9/11. Those people work every
single day, 24 hours a day. They can't leave, and it is
unmanageable.
Mr. Crane. Thank you.
Mr. Chairman, I yield back.
Mr. Pfluger. Thank you, Mr. Crane.
Mr. Suozzi, sir, you are recognized for 5 minutes.
Mr. Suozzi. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
First, let me thank the witnesses for your time. We really
appreciate you guys being here, Dr. Brown, Mr. Healy, Mr.
Nowrasteh.
Mr. Nowrasteh. Nowrasteh.
Mr. Suozzi. Nowrasteh.
Thanks so much for your time. I know this can be
frustrating for you guys, because this is serious stuff to you
as well like it is for the American public. It is difficult to
listen to the back-and-forth sometimes, and it seems like, you
know, what are you guys doing? You are just fighting with each
other. Why can't we just, like, work together in trying to
address this problem?
I want to associate myself with Mr. Crane's remarks,
because he is right; we have got a serious problem with
terrorists that we have to worry about, we should be worried
about it, and we should do everything possible. I mean, that
is--I don't think there is any argument with that. I don't
think there is anybody that could disagree. I mean, with both
sides, I agree with a lot of stuff that has been said on both
sides here. The crisis that we have in our country is not just
the Southern Border. It is a crisis of Washington, DC, that we
are not actually putting aside the rhetoric and doing the work
that is necessary to find common ground to get this done.
So I don't want to talk about former President Trump or
President Biden or Kamala Harris or all that stuff.
We have got to do a few things. We have got to secure the
border. We have--there were a lot of things in the Senate bill
that were great. Mr. Crane didn't like the idea of the 4,000 a
day or something, that we shouldn't have anybody who should
apply for asylum at the ports of entry. No number, just no
asylum applications into the ports of entry. The President's
Executive Order lowered the number from 4,000 down to 1,500,
but maybe it should be zero so people can apply for asylum.
Asylum is an important part of America's history. Apply for
asylum at safe mobility offices, which they are trying to do
right now, but do it so you could apply in Guatemala; you could
apply in Colombia; you could apply somewhere in Europe or in
Asia, apply in those places, don't come to the Southern Border.
Why subject these people to pay $10,000 to some criminal
entity, subject themselves to this awful trek, subject
themselves to rape or murder or pillaging, awful experiences,
parents and children. Why not just have people apply in other
places? Don't put the pressure on the Southern Border and let's
do all the other stuff that was good in the Senate bipartisan
compromise, more judges, more border security, build some more
wall, more technology, do all that stuff. But let's--we have
got to stop this back and forth and back and forth and back and
forth. The people in America are like, ``What are you guys
doing? This is real, stop. Just work together and fix it.''
So we have got to secure the border. We have got to fix the
asylum system that still respects the concept of asylum. You
know, we used to applaud asylum in America. When someone
defected from Russia or from Soviet Union, I should say, we
were like, ``Yes, they are defecting. They are with us; they
are not with them. They are being persecuted; we are going to
help them.'' Well, there are still people being persecuted in
the world. Asylum is the magnificent thing about America, but
let's not make it so that the people who are using asylum
because they have been coached by a coyote and abuse the system
because they are just doing it for economic reasons, which we
understand that--we have compassion for people doing it for a
number of reasons, but that is not the purpose of asylum. The
purpose of asylum is you are being tortured or persecuted in
your country for your political beliefs or something else about
you, and you have nowhere else to go, and America is the beacon
of light for the rest of the world. So let's keep asylum, but
let's fix it from being abused right now. So secure the border,
fix asylum, and then let's treat people like human beings.
Let's find the areas that make sense, like a lot of things
that Mr. Nowrasteh was talking about that will improve our
economy. The farm workers, let's--there was a bipartisan farm
workers bill; we have got to get that back. Let's help the
Dreamers that have been here for 30 years, these kids that came
here. They graduated from college. They are now in the
military. I mean, they are now in college, or they are working
a full-time--give them a break. We are not going to send them
back to a country they never knew since they came here. We
invited people here because they had an earthquake, or they had
a civil war. We said, TPS, temporary protective--``Come to
America; we will take you in. We will help you because of how
awful it is.'' Help those people; they have been here 20 or 30
years. Afghan readjustment, the people that Mr. Luttrell served
with, help them to come here. So let's stop the BS--and I am
not suggesting that you guys are doing BS at all. Let's figure
out how can we do the things to secure our border, fix the
asylum system while still respecting its history, and treat
people like human beings? Let's give the American people what
they want, because they don't want what I hear a lot of these
hearings that we have, which is just the back and forth. ``You
are one of those, and you are one of those,'' and blah, blah,
blah. Let's work together and let's actually make the world a
better place to live in.
So I am sorry that I did all the talking and didn't ask any
questions. But I appreciate your service, all of you, for
spending the time, not only today but, you know, devoting your
lives to these public policy issues and helping to educate. I
took the time to read your testimony, and I am grateful to you
for the work that you have all done. Let's work together and
make things better.
I yield back, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Pfluger. Thank you, Mr. Suozzi.
Mr. D'Esposito, you are recognized, sir, for 5 minutes.
Mr. D'Esposito. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you all for
being here this morning.
Homeland Security stated in their 2024 homeland threat
assessment that, ``Terrorists and criminal actors may exploit
the elevated flow an increasingly complex security environment
to enter the United States.'' So let me put it another way, the
Biden-Harris administration failed border policies have without
a doubt caused a crisis at our Southern Border that allows,
unfortunately, terrorists and criminals to slip into our Nation
and wreak havoc on American streets.
From fiscal year 2021 to date, 378 individuals whose names
appear on the known terror watch list were stopped trying to
cross our Southern Border illegally. These are just the ones
that we know about. Just 24 hours ago, we had a hearing in this
room where a former chief of the Border Patrol, I asked him how
much information do we have on the millions of known gotaways
that have entered this country. His answer: Zero. We have zero
information on millions of people who have crossed into this
country illegally. We don't know where they are. We don't know
what they are doing. We don't know who they are associating
with, and we don't know what they want to do to this country.
You would honestly have to be blind not to see the crisis that
we are experiencing as a Nation and the danger that this
administration is putting every American in, and it is
absolutely unacceptable.
Mr. Healy, in your testimony, you stated, ``In my
experience, the numbers matter.'' I agree they do. Quote: 19
al-Qaeda terrorists on 4 commercial jetliners fundamentally
altered our world, forever changing our mindset in the
aftermath of 9/11. In this landscape a single terrorist act has
the potential to impact millions of lives.
Just last week, we commemorated the 23rd anniversary of the
September 11 attacks. Communities that I represent on Long
Island in New York lost hundreds of individuals that day.
Unfortunately, we continue to lose people related to 9/11
illness. Both the NYPD and the FDNY, the numbers have nearly
doubled of those that have died since 9/11 than on the actual
day.
When you hear some of the numbers that I mentioned related
to our border, what are your initial thoughts?
Mr. Healy. Extreme concern, and it is outrageous because we
didn't have to get here. This was preventable. This was
preventable.
Mr. D'Esposito. What sort of threats do numbers like this
pose to the United States of America?
Mr. Healy. An unknown--a known or suspected terrorist,
unknown to the FBI entering into the United States is a threat
beyond I can comprehend. I--when you talk about 1 or 2, it
doesn't matter. The issue is, is that when you have 1, that 1
everybody knows about, and the fear and possibilities of what
they can do is incredible.
Mr. D'Esposito. Mr. Healy, you use the word you pretty much
can't comprehend it, and that is coming from someone who has
spent his entire adult life in this world, in this business,
protecting the United States of America.
Would you agree that the large number of known gotaways,
along the large number of individuals on the terrorist watch
list trying to enter our Nation poses a threat to every State,
every city, and every community in this country?
Mr. Healy. Absolutely, absolutely 100 percent.
Mr. D'Esposito. Would you say that it poses an even bigger
threat to people who live in communities like the surrounding
communities or right in New York City, especially those with
sanctuary city laws that incentivize people to come to their
city?
Mr. Healy. I think it is a problem throughout our country
right now, period.
Mr. D'Esposito. With that, Mr. Chairman, my time has almost
expired.
Mr. Higgins [presiding]. Will the gentleman yield the
balance of his time to the Chair?
Mr. D'Esposito. Absolutely.
Mr. Higgins. Mr. Nowrasteh commented regarding possession
for hiring and Border Patrol. Are you familiar with the number
of positions that are currently open because of morale and
change of mission the Biden administration, Secretary Mayorkas
has been unable to fill? They can't get people to go work for
that man. Are you aware? I could give you 100,000 more agents,
but if you can't hire 100 air and marine agents, 1,300 CBP
officers, and 1,700 Border Patrol agents--these are positions
open right now. For years, they can't fill these slots. So, go
ahead, I will give permission to hire 100,000 more; you can't
fill these slots.
The gentleman's time has expired.
Mr. Brecheen is recognized for 5 minutes of questioning.
Mr. Brecheen. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I--2 different times, 2 different days in a row,
Congressman Tom Suozzi from New York has said some things, and
I am excited where he is coming from in terms of him talking
about the need to secure the border. I told him privately
yesterday; I caught him on the floor. He is a Democrat; I am a
Republican. I said, thank you. Because I see--he represents New
York. He just came through an election, and his constituency,
just like Mr. D'Esposito, who also is a Republican represents
New York. My assumption is the reason why he is having these
positions is he just went through a campaign, and he is hearing
from enough New Yorkers who experienced 9/11 who are saying to
him, ``This position that the Democrat Party has, you can't--
you will not get elected if you don't see my concern.'' The
average American knows we are danger because of policies that
are not securing our border is. It reminds me how we have
changed in the last 10 or 15 years when we had United States
Senator Joe Biden say, ``The reason I believe in physical
barriers,'' in 2006, ``is because of the drugs that they are
shipping between the ports of entries,'' and then he gets
elected President and says ``not another foot'' and shuts down
Congressionally-authorized, Congressionally-voted-upon, signed-
into-law 200 miles of border wall construction. What is
happening?
It reminds me of the story of the husband and wife driving
down the road sitting on 2 opposite sides of the vehicle,
seeing this 16-year-old couple maybe coming past them on the
highway, and they are sitting together, maybe holding hands.
The wife looks over at the husband and says, ``Sweetie, why
don't we sit like that together anymore,'' and he looks at her
on the opposite end of vehicle and says, ``Well, I didn't go
anywhere.''
I am astounded that there are organizations that are
advocating such amazing ideologies that say we don't need to
have a secure border with physical barriers when the current
President said that as a United States Senator when Barack
Obama had a 100-mile of border wall built. When you have, in
the course of an administration 3\1/2\ years, this
administration, 250--I am sorry--north of 350 people on the
terrorist watch list that have come into this country, 100 of
which they did not catch and release them because there are so
many people coming across the Southern Border; we don't have
the ability to vet them. One hundred people released into this
country on the terrorist watch list. In the entirety of Trump's
time, you only had 15 or less in 4 years. I mention that, Mr.
Healy--you said a while ago you had a 20-plus year career with
the FBI, and you were involved with the Terrorist Screening
Center. You helped build that. So I am going to ask you a
question. Have you seen, because Director Wray under the Biden
administration said he has never--we are at a whole 'nother
level of threat. That is under this administration. I commended
him a few weeks ago, months ago saying, ``Thank you for at
least sharing,'' because he works with us under this
administration. He has been courageous enough to step up his
game and say, ``This is a threat because of what is
happening.'' Have you ever seen this heightened threat level in
30 years in working for the FBI that we are today because of
insane policies?
Mr. Healy. Never, never.
Mr. Brecheen. So, to the gentlemen, I wrote it down, Mr.
Nowrasteh from the Cato Institute. Thank you, this long down
the line in the order of those who have get a chance to speak,
I have heard you pronounce it a number of times this morning.
Look, I have read some Cato things that I like. There are times
in the past before I started watching you all on your border
positions; I was a fan at times of Cato positions. I am
astounded where Cato is trying to take this narrative. Why have
you all moved so far to the position that you are at where you
don't see that the woman yesterday, daughter raped, was before
this committee. Rape after rape, after murder after murder, and
we don't understand we have to do all the above to secure that
Southern Border. To what Trump is talking about, there are
criminals being released. If you are a country and you want to
get rid of a criminal population, ``Go north, young man, go
north,'' is the mantra coming from many of these countries, and
we are--the policies that are allowing this. Do you think we
are safer than we were 3 years ago?
Mr. Nowrasteh. There has never been a terrorist attack
committed by an illegal immigrant who entered illegally on U.S.
soil in U.S. history. It has not happened. I think I you should
focus on real threats that have actually manifested----
Mr. Brecheen. Can I interrupt you? You say it is never
happened. You say it is never happened.
Mr. Nowrasteh. Yes----
Mr. Brecheen. What will you say when Director Wray is
proved right, and this threat has never happened, and it does
happen?
Mr. Nowrasteh. I have a long list, 50 pages of predictions
made about fear of terrorism happening made going back decades,
all of them have turned out to be wrong. I am sick and tired of
this threat hyperinflation----
Mr. Brecheen. I am going to wrap up, Mr. Chairman. Let me
ask this, if it was a family member of yours that was raped and
murdered or murdered by Tren de Aragua, would that statement be
different? Would you say it's never happened?
Mr. Nowrasteh. We should focus 100 percent of our resources
on security threats. We should take Border Patrol away from
trying to stop workers trying to come in. We should legalize
the flow of labor so we can focus on these. Of course, there
are individuals who----
Mr. Brecheen. I yield, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Nowrasteh [continuing]. Are illegal immigrants. They
should be punished, removed, incarcerated, and stopped, and we
should focus on them?
Mr. Higgins. The gentleman yields. I will let the witness
finish because he is sick and tired.
All right. Fascinating interactions here today, both sides
of the aisle. What you have participated in today, ladies and
gentlemen, and what America has witnessed is silent American
men and women on both sides of the aisle are grappling with
this issue. Clearly what is happening is injurious to our
country at the Southern Border by any measure, less of a
measure from one witness, more of a measure from another. It is
our job to determine, what can we do to work together to
mitigate against injury to our country. So I appreciate the
Ranking Members of both subcommittees joining us today. I
appreciate the staff that have worked to assemble this and the
panelists because, ultimately, regardless of our political
affiliation, we are Americans, and we love and respect each
other, and we are dedicated to serve our country.
So I thank the witnesses for the valuable testimony and the
Members for their questions.
The Members of the subcommittee may have some additional
questions for the witnesses, and we would ask that the
witnesses respond to these in writing. Pursuant to committee
rule VII(D), the hearing record will be held open for 10 days.
Without objection, this hearing stands adjourned.
[Whereupon, at 12:01 p.m., the subcommittees were
adjourned.]
[all]