[House Hearing, 118 Congress]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]
PAKISTAN AFTER THE ELECTIONS: EXAMINING
THE FUTURE OF DEMOCRACY IN PAKISTAN
AND THE U.S. PAKISTAN RELATIONSHIP
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HEARING
OF THE
SUBCOMMITTEE ON THE MIDDLE EAST, NORTH
AFRICA, AND CENTRAL ASIA,
BEFORE THE
COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN AFFAIRS
U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
ONE HUNDRED EIGHTEENTH CONGRESS
SECOND SESSION
__________
March 20, 2024
__________
Serial No. 118-90
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Printed for the use of the Committee on Foreign Affairs
[GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Available: http://www.foreignaffairs.house.gov, http://docs.house.gov,
or http://www.govinfo.gov
__________
U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE
59-877PDF WASHINGTON : 2026
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COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN AFFAIRS
MICHAEL T. McCAUL, Texas, Chairman
CHRISTOPHER H. SMITH, New Jersey GREGORY MEEKS, New York, Ranking
JOE WILSON, South Carolina Member
SCOTT PERRY, Pennsylvania BRAD SHERMAN, California
DARRELL ISSA, California GERALD E. CONNOLLY, Virginia
ANN WAGNER, Missouri WILLIAM KEATING, Massachusetts
BRIAN MAST, Florida AMI BERA, California
KEN BUCK, Colorado JOAQUIN CASTRO, Texas
TIM BURCHETT, Tennessee DINA TITUS, Nevada
MARK E. GREEN, Tennessee TED LIEU, California
ANDY BARR, Kentucky SUSAN WILD, Pennsylvania
RONNY JACKSON, Texas DEAN PHILLIPS, Minnesota
YOUNG KIM, California COLIN ALLRED, Texas
MARIA ELVIRA SALAZAR, Florida ANDY KIM, New Jersey
BILL HUIZENGA, Michigan SARA JACOBS, California
AUMUA AMATA COLEMAN RADEWAGEN, KATHY MANNING, North Carolina
American Samoa SHEILA CHERFILUS-McCORMICK,
FRENCH HILL, Arkansas Florida
WARREN DAVIDSON, Ohio GREG STANTON, Arizona
JIM BAIRD, Indiana MADELEINE DEAN, Pennsylvania
MICHAEL WALTZ, Florid JARED MOSKOWITZ, Florida
THOMAS KEAN, JR., New Jersey JONATHAN JACKSON, Illinois
MICHAEL LAWLER, New York SYDNEY KAMLAGER-DOVE, California
CORY MILLS, Florida JIM COSTA, California
RICH McCORMICK, Georgia JASON CROW, Colorado
NATHANIEL MORAN, Texas BRAD SCHNEIDER, Illinois
JOHN JAMES, Michigan
KEITH SEL, Texas
Brendan Shields, Majority Staff Director
Sophia Lafargue, Minority Staff Director
------
SUBCOMMITTEE ON THE MIDDLE EAST, NORTH AFRICA, AND CENTRAL ASIA
JOE WILSON, South Carolina, Chairman
BRIAN MAST, Florida DEAN PHILLIPS, Minnesota, Ranking
TIM BURCHETT, Tennessee Member
RONNY JACKSON, Texas BRAD SHERMAN, California
JIM BAIRD, Indiana GERALD CONNOLLY, Virginia
MICHAEL LAWLER, New York KATHY MANNING, North Carolina
RICH MCCORMICK, Georgia
Gabriella Zach Subcommittee Staff Director
C O N T E N T S
----------
Page
REPRESENTATIVES
Opening Statement of Subcommittee Chairman Joe Wilson............ 1
Opening Statement of Subcommittee Ranking Member Dean Phillips... 3
WITNESSES
Statement of Hon. Donald Lu, Assistant Secretary of State, Bureau
For South and Central Asian Affairs, U.S. State Department..... 7
Prepared Statement............................................... 9
APPENDIX
Hearing Notice................................................... 32
Hearing Minutes.................................................. 33
Hearing Attendance............................................... 34
Materials for the Record
Statement of Michael T. McCaul, Chairman of Committee on Foreign
Affairs........................................................ 35
Statement from Representative Gerald E, Connolly (D-VA).......... 38
Testimony of Dr. Moeed Pirzada................................... 40
Testimony of Dr. Sundas Ali...................................... 45
Testimonty of Syed A. Hussain.................................... 46
Testimony of Dr, Salman Ahman.................................... 48
Questions for the Record
Questions submitted to Donald Lu by Representative Chairman Joe
Wilson......................................................... 51
Questions submitted to Donald Lu by Ranking Member Gregory Meeks. 53
PAKISTAN AFTER THE ELECTIONS: EXAMINING THE FUTURE OF DEMOCRACY IN
PAKISTAN AND THE U.S.-PAKISTAN RELATIONSHIP
----------
Wednesday, March 20, 2024
House of Representatives,
Subcommittee on the Middle East, North Africa, and
Central Asia,
Committee on Foreign Affairs,
Washington, DC.
The subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 10:15 a.m., in
room 2172, Rayburn House Office Building, Hon. Joe Wilson
(chairman of the subcommittee) presiding.
Mr. Wilson. Ladies and gentlemen, the Subcommittee on
Middle East, North Africa, and Central Asia will come to order.
The purpose of this hearing is to discuss the post-election
landscape in the very important country of Pakistan and the
future of U.S.-Pakistani relationship, including the future of
U.S. security assistance to Pakistan and Pakistan's role in the
regional dynamics.
I will now recognize myself for opening statement, and then
recognize Dean Phillips, who we are so grateful to have Dean
back. He has been traveling around the country visiting and
understanding the American people, and we just appreciate his
passion of service. And so, Dean, thank you for coming back.
OPENING STATEMENT OF CHAIRMAN JOE WILSON
Indeed, Congresswoman Kathy Manning did a really good job
as the substitute, and so we are very fortunate. And, indeed,
it indicates something that people--the American people need to
know, and that is that Republicans and Democrats can work
together. And, in fact, on this issue I am confident that
Republicans and Democrats want what is best for the people of
Pakistan.
With that in mind, since the catastrophic withdrawal from
Afghanistan in 2021, the region has been stuck in a cycle of
instability. Now that instability is further exacerbated by the
domestic situation within Pakistan.
I was born with an appreciation of the people of Pakistan
and South Asia. My father had served in The Flying Tigers, the
14th Air Force, in World War II, and he actually arrived in
Karachi on his way to serve in Kunming, Shantou, and Xi'an in
China during World War II. So he had his beginning service
right there in Pakistan.
He told me how hardworking the people of South Asia are.
And when South Asians began buying--purchasing properties of
hotels and motels across the State of South Carolina, I let
them know that I knew who they were, I knew their reputation of
hard work, and so I had the opportunity to represent the people
of South Asia as they bought a majority of the hotels and
motels, convenience stores, across the United States.
They have achieved--South Asians now have a per capital
income twice that of the average American. This is just such a
tribute to the hardworking talents of the people of South Asia.
I also had the opportunity to see the military cooperation
between the U.S. Marines and the Pakistani military. I had the
opportunity to visit a field hospital in Muzaffarabad several
years ago after the earthquake, and it was so inspiring to see
female doctors working with women who would only go to a female
physician.
While I was there, one of the highlights of my service, a
young Corporal Sulani came running up and said, ``Hey,
Congressman, I am here because of you.'' And I thought, gosh,
what did I do wrong to send you to an earthquake troubled area?
Well, he identified himself, Corporal Sulani, and he said,
``Hey,'' and I realized--I remembered that our office had
expedited his citizenship.
He was a Pakistani American who could serve in the U.S.
Marine Corps, be there in a U.S. Marine uniform, speaking Urdu.
How impressive that is, but it reinforced to me again the
positive relationship, the mutually beneficial relationship,
between the United States and Pakistan. This was a young marine
who had been trained in the district I represent at Parris
Island, South Carolina.
And then, on my visits to Islamabad, I have been so
impressed and inspired by the people that I have had the
opportunity to meet, government officials and military. Sadly,
part of my visits have been very sad in that I visited a
superstar, and that is Benazir Bhutto. It was so impressive to
be at her home, and then tragically, several weeks later, she
was assassinated, which is a reminder over and over again the
destabilization that has been so catastrophic for the people of
Pakistan, I know that the people of America want a stable,
positive, and democratic Pakistan.
Pakistan currently is on the brink of economic catastrophe,
much of which has been caused by the massive amounts of debt
owed to a loan shark. The loan shark is the Chinese Communist
Party. We are seeing a cautionary tale play out where the
United States shifted our attention away from Central Asia and
South Asia from Pakistan. The Chinese Communist Party stepped
in to fill the void, and in doing so further destabilized the
situation.
Threats to democracy in Pakistan extend beyond economic
threat posed by the Chinese Communist Party presence. Just last
month, there were widespread allegations of fraud and
interference in the Pakistani elections. This is a critical
point in defining the history of Pakistan where the country
must choose between respecting democracy with rule of law or
allow a military establishment to continue to control the
direction of the government with rule of gun.
The Pakistani people deserve to have their voices heard.
They deserve democracy and strong institutions. They deserve a
government that protects their rights. We have recently seen
the threat posed by dictators with rule of gun invading
democracy's rule of law--war criminal Putin into Ukraine, the
Iranian puppets into Israel, the threats to the people of
Taiwan, the actual invasion, sadly, even of the United States
on the southern border.
We now have recognized that consistently supporting the
people of Ukraine and Israel fight back against the malign
influence of war criminal Putin and the terrorists supported by
the regime in Tehran. We must support the people of Pakistan in
their struggle for strong democratic institutions the same way,
to support the values and American interests which are mutually
beneficial to Pakistan and America.
I thank Secretary Lu for coming today to discuss the Biden
Administration's policy toward Pakistan. I look forward to
hearing from Ranking Member Dean Phillips.
OPENING STATEMENT OF RANKING MEMBER DEAN PHILLIPS
Mr. Phillips. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and to you,
Assistant Secretary Lu, for joining us, and to all of you who
are joining us today for a robust discussion about the recent
election in Pakistan and also the future of the U.S.-Pakistan
relationship, which is of great importance to this country and
of course Pakistan.
On February 8, over 60 million Pakistanis voted in
countrywide elections. These elections saw record numbers of
women, religious and ethnic minority groups, and young people
running for seats in Parliament. It resulted in a range of
political parties winning seats in national and provincial
assemblies.
Despite these successes, the United States and
international election observers have expressed concerns
related to both pre-election and day-of-election
irregularities, including the undue restrictions on freedom of
expression, association, and assembly. The U.S. and like-minded
countries have also condemned electoral violence, attacks on
media workers, and restrictions on access to the internet and
telecom services.
It is important that any claims of fraud or interference be
fully and transparently investigated in accordance with
Pakistan's own laws and procedures, and I am eager to hear from
the assistant secretary regarding his assessment of that
election, if the outcome was credible, and how the election
fits into Pakistan's historical context.
It is also important that the United States-Pakistan
relationship remain strong and rooted in our shared commitments
to strengthening Pakistan's democratic institutions, supporting
Pakistan's economy, cooperating on counterterrorism threats,
and bolstering respect for human rights.
In addition to promoting democratic values, supporting
Pakistan's economy is a key strategic goal of our bilateral
relationship. After facing one of the worst economic crises in
its history, Pakistan and the International Monetary Fund just
signed a $3 billion standby arrangement in 2023 that is set to
end this April. Prior to this agreement, Pakistan's economy was
marked by soaring inflation, a sharply depreciating currency,
dwindling foreign exchange reserves, and mounting overseas
debt.
To achieve fiscal stability and secure a longer-term IMF
bailout, Pakistan will have to make structural economic reforms
that will include controlling inflation and expanding the
collection of the country's tax base. I do hope to hear from
Assistant Secretary Lu's perspective on the new coalition
government's willingness to work with the IMF and tackle
Pakistan's very tough economic challenges in a serious and
meaningful way.
Terrorism and security challenges are also top of mind when
it comes to the U.S.-Pakistan bilateral relationship. Twelve
militant organizations operating in Pakistan are designated
FTOs, foreign terrorist organizations, under U.S. law, most
prominent of course being Tehrik-e-Taliban, or the TTP, the
Balochistan Liberation Army, Al Qaeda, and ISIS-Khorasan
Province.
The United States has an interest in working with Pakistan
to ensure that these organizations are unable to destabilize
the region or attack the United States homeland. Particularly
since the U.S. withdrawal from Afghanistan in August 2021,
Pakistan has faced an increased domestic threat from the TTP.
In 2023, TTP led bombings and gun attacks, killed over
1,000 Pakistanis nationwide, half of them security forces,
marking the highest number of fatalities in 6 years. And just
yesterday, the Pakistani government conducted air raids inside
of Afghanistan it claims targeting TTP hideouts in the country.
This comes in direct response to a suicide bombing targeting a
Pakistani military checkpoint that killed at least seven
Pakistani soldiers.
Beyond the threat of terrorism, in Pakistan's approach to
Afghanistan, I hope that we will also examine Pakistan's
regional relationships with Iran, Russia, and, of course,
China. I am also deeply disappointed that the former Pakistani
government announced that it would expel all unregistered
foreigners from the country.
Pakistan is home to an estimated 4 million Afghan citizens,
and approximately 1.7 million of those are undocumented. This
leaves almost 2 million--2 million--people at risk of being
deported back to a country under Taliban control that is facing
prolong economic crisis that has left two-thirds of the entire
population in need--dire need--of humanitarian assistance.
What is more, many of these individuals have lived in
Pakistan for decades, having originally fled Afghanistan in the
1980's during the country's occupation by the Soviets. Credible
claims that Pakistani authorities have committed widespread
abuse against Afghans living in Pakistan to compel their return
to Afghanistan are extremely alarming.
I recognize and am incredibly grateful for the important
work that the State Department and the Pakistani government
have done together to ensure that Afghans with a potential
pathway to the United States or other international partner
countries are able to remain in Pakistan while their cases are
adjudicated. I hope Secretary Lu is able to speak to this as
well.
Pakistan and the U.S. celebrated 75 years of bilateral
diplomatic relations just in 2022. Although it is important we
continue to address the urgent issues I have mentioned so far,
I envision progress toward more robust cooperation on global
challenges, such as health and climate, technology, and trade.
Pakistan consistently ranks among the top 10 most
vulnerable countries on the CRI, the Climate Risk Index, with
10,000 annual fatalities due to climate-related disasters and
financial losses amounting to $4 billion annually.
In July 2023, USAID announced over $16 million in
additional development and humanitarian assistance to support
the resilience of communities in Pakistan that experienced
2022's historically devastating floods. These areas of
cooperation highlight the work that we can do together to
strengthen our communities and combat climate change as two
peoples.
We also had the opportunity to deepen our people-to-people
ties, strengthen Pakistan's business environment, and invest in
innovative solutions to global health and clean energy. The
opportunities for cooperation are endless as we understand from
elections, both in the United States and Pakistan also, a
government empowered by a strong democratic mandate is critical
to addressing longstanding challenges and pursuing new
opportunities.
I look forward to hearing from Assistant Secretary Lu about
all the ways in which the U.S.-Pakistan relationship can
advance our shared interests and continue to promote and
strengthen respect for democratic values and human rights.
With that, Mr. Chair, I yield back.
Mr. Wilson. Thank you very much, Ranking Member Dean
Phillips.
It is really unprecedented, but to show how important the
relationship is between the United States and Pakistan, we have
an unprecedented number of Members of Congress who are not on
the subcommittee who are requesting to have the opportunity to
participate. And so I ask unanimous consent that the gentleman
from Texas, Mr. Casar, and the gentleman from California, Mr.
Khanna, be allowed to sit at the dais and to participate
following all other members at today's hearing. Without
objection, so ordered.
Additionally, I also unanimous consent that the gentleman
from Texas, Mr. Pfluger, be allowed to sit at the dais and to
participate in today's hearing. Without objection, so ordered.
And most unprecedented, to show how important this hearing
is, and the relationship and appreciation and affection we have
for the people of Pakistan, I now will be recognizing the
chairman of the full committee, Congressman Mike McCaul of
Texas, for an opening statement.
Mr. McCaul. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, Ranking Member, and I
agree with you there is a tremendous amount of interest in this
hearing. I think I have never had so many members on the House
floor come to me and say, ``We need to have a hearing on
Pakistan after the election.'' And I know the diasporas out
across the United States have shown a lot of great interest and
have voiced that to their Members of Congress.
I also want to thank Assistant Secretary Lu for testifying
here today. I have always thought Pakistan is a very important
country, and I have been there many times. It is a beautiful
country, but it is often fraught with problems related to
terrorism and other matters. And today they are facing many
challenges, just the same. They just installed a new government
after this controversial election.
Currently, Pakistan is experiencing a massive economic
crisis, including record inflation and an overwhelming foreign
debt. Pakistan's domestic situation has a ripple effect
throughout the region. It is critical the United States works
to promote economic prosperity and domestic stability within
Pakistan.
I think the people of Pakistan deserve a country where
democracy and rule of law are protected at the highest levels.
The voters have displayed their commitment to participating in
the process. Despite allegations of fraud and interference in
the recent election, the people of Pakistan showed up to vote
in unprecedented numbers, which is very positive.
However, I was deeply concerned by well-documented
instances of interference in the February elections, including
a terrorist attack at a candidate's political offices hours
before the polls opened and, also, major internet and cell
service shut-offs on election day. These events are serious and
consequential. I have called for a full investigation into any
allegations of interference or corruption in their recent
elections, and I will be watching closely to see how these
irregularities are being addressed.
Additionally, human rights in Pakistan must be respected
for democracy to thrive. The failure to recognize basic human
rights will unquestionably lead to a downward spiral. If human
rights are ignored, the prospect of a democratic society will
evaporate.
Meanwhile, Pakistan's security is at risk as the TTP and
other terror groups have become increasingly emboldened. This
is a direct result of the Biden Administration's disastrous
withdrawal from Afghanistan in 2021. And we had a hearing just
yesterday with the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs, General
Milley, and CENTCOM Commander, General McKinsey. That deadly
and chaotic withdrawal projected weakness on the world stage,
and we see from history that weakness always invites
aggression.
Our adversaries are now testing our resolve. And when they
see weakness, they do exploit it. Pakistan has played an
essential role in mitigating the effects of the
Administration's withdrawal on regional security. It remains
vitally important that the United States and Pakistan continue
to work together to counter terrorism.
While challenges remain ahead, the United States and
Pakistan must continue to work together to promote regional
stability. We also know that if the United States pulls away
from our relationship with Pakistan, the Chinese Communist
Party will gain even more influence.
And while we seek to help nations thrive, CCP is only
interested in a one-way relationship of debt-trap diplomacy.
And Pakistan, in their ground zero for their Belt and Road
Initiative, Pakistan is the CCP's ground zero for, you know,
China's Belt and Road.
So, anyway, I look forward to working with my colleagues.
It is in our best interest to have a vibrant and healthy
Pakistan, one of democracy, economic prosperity, and stability.
And I think working together we can work to make Pakistan a
success in its role as a key regional security partner.
And so that, again, Mr. Chairman, thank you for holding
this hearing. I know there is immense interest in this across
the Nation, and of course in Pakistan itself. And, with that, I
yield back.
Mr. Wilson. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. And I want
to thank you yesterday for the historic hearing that you
conducted with General Mark Milley and General Frank McKinsey
revealing clearly that President Biden did not abide by their
recommendations that they withdraw the--surrender the
appeasement was solely the responsibility of Mr. Biden.
With that in mind, we are pleased to have a distinguished
witness today, Hon. Donald Lu, Assistant Secretary for South
and Central Asian Affairs at the State Department.
Thank you for being here today. Your full statement will be
made part of the record, and I will ask you to keep your spoken
remarks to 5 minutes in order to allow time for members to ask
questions and they, too, will be held to a strict 5 minutes.
I now recognize Assistant Secretary Lu for the opening
statement.
STATEMENT OF HON. DONALD LU, ASSISTANT SECRETARY OF STATE,
BUREAU FOR SOUTH AND CENTRAL ASIAN AFFAIRS, U.S. STATE
DEPARTMENT
Mr. Lu. Chairman Wilson, Ranking Member Phillips, Chairman
McCaul, colleagues, when I was a junior officer in Peshawar,
Pakistan, 31 years ago, I got to see a Pakistani election up
close. I got to see the irregularities in that election, but
also the courage of the Pakistani people to come out and vote
despite threats of intimidation and threats of violence.
If you will allow me today, I propose to say a few words
about where the election on February 8 fell short, where we saw
positive elements, and what lies ahead for U.S. policy in
Pakistan.
The day after the elections, the State Department issued a
clear statement. We noted undue restrictions on the freedoms of
expression association, and peaceful assembly. We condemned the
electoral violence and restrictions on human rights and
fundamental freedoms. We condemned attacks on media workers and
restrictions on the access to the internet and telecom
services. And we expressed concern about allegations of
interference in the electoral process and stated that claims of
interference and fraud should be fully investigated.
If you will allow me, I will drill down a bit deeper into
these observations. We were particularly concerned about
electoral abuses and violence that happened in the weeks
leading up to the polls. First, there were attacks against
police, politicians, and political gatherings by terrorist
groups. Second, many journalists, particularly female
journalists, were harassed and abused by party supporters. And,
third, several political leaders were disadvantaged by the
inability to register specific candidates and political
parties.
On the day of elections, an internationally respected local
election monitoring organization said they were barred from
observing vote tabulation in more than half of the
constituencies across the country. And despite a high court
order not to interrupt internet service on election day,
authorities shut down mobile data services, the principal means
by which Pakistanis access social media and messaging apps.
There were positive elements to this election as well.
Despite the threat of violence, over 60 million Pakistanis
voted, including over 21 million women. Voters elected 50
percent more women to Parliament than they had in 2018. In
addition to a record number of female candidates, there were
also a record number of members of religious and minority
groups and young people running for seats in their Parliament.
Pakistani voters had a choice. A range of political parties
won seats in the national and provincial assemblies. Three
different political parties now lead Pakistan's four provinces.
More than 5,000 independent election observers were in the
field. Their organization's conclusion was that the conduct of
the election was largely competitive and orderly, while noting
some irregularities in the compilation of results.
Pakistan is an important partner of the U.S. We share a
commitment to strengthening Pakistan's democratic institutions,
supporting the U.S.-Pakistan Green Alliance Framework,
cooperating to counter terrorist threats from groups like Al
Qaeda and ISIS, and bolstering respect for human rights,
including the right of religious freedom.
Most importantly, the United States plays a critical role
in promoting economic stability in Pakistan. We are the top
destination for Pakistan's exports. We have been one of the
most important investors in critical infrastructure over 76
years of our partnership.
For example, the U.S. Government is refurbishing now the
Mangla and Tarbela dams, which provide electricity to tens of
millions of Pakistanis. Our support for Pakistan over these
decades has been in the form of development grants, private
sector investment, and humanitarian assistance during the
periods of its greatest need, including the recent catastrophic
flooding.
Unfortunately, Pakistan is facing a mounting debt challenge
after the past decade of elevated borrowing, including from the
PRC. This year, nearly 70 percent of the Federal Government's
revenue is expected to go to payments to service this massive
debt. Pakistan needs economic reforms, and it needs private
sector-led investment that will deliver economic growth for the
Pakistani people and not dig their government deeper into debt.
Finally, the Pakistani people deserve a country that is
peaceful, that is democratic, and that is prosperous. We are
working every day to support that vision. I thank the
subcommittee--I thank the subcommittee for its leadership on
developing our relations with Pakistan, and I pledge to work
with its members as we execute our policy.
[The prepared statement of Mr. Lu follows:]
[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Mr. Wilson. Thank you, Mr. Secretary. You were precisely on
time, and so--and Alexis is going to make sure that we are all
5 minutes.
And I want to commend Chairman McCaul again. We now have
clocks that are large enough for people of age to read. So this
is a really startling discovery here.
[Laughter.]
Mr. Wilson. We have really come--hey, we have come a long
way to have clocks you can read.
But, no, this is so serious, and the 70 percent debt
payment is just so horrific. But not only is it catastrophic to
the people of Pakistan, but it is a message to other countries
that think that they are working with people that they can
trust. They are not. They are there for a purpose, and the time
needs to begin on mine now, please.
And so as we begin, after the disastrous U.S. withdrawal
from Afghanistan and with the 13 murdered Marines at Abbey Gate
in 2021, where does the Administration see the future of the
U.S.-Pakistan relationship? What are the Administration's top
priorities for Pakistan?
Mr. Lu. Mr. Chairman, thank you very much. And, again,
thank you for holding this hearing. It is obviously of great
interest for Americans generally. Clearly, in the audience
today we have lots of people who care deeply about Pakistan. We
are at an inflection point in our relationship with Pakistan.
As you suggest, Afghanistan has been in conflict for 40
years, and Pakistan has been a country that has been caught up
in that conflict. The end of the war in Afghanistan provides us
all an opportunity--an opportunity to have a relationship with
Pakistan on its own terms. And we are committed to doing that.
One of the major goals that we have with Pakistan now is to
support the Pakistani people as they face this terrible threat
of terrorism. Many of the members have discussed this, but this
is a country where the people have suffered under the threat of
terrorism in a way that I think no one on the planet has had to
suffer.
The attacks, particularly in the provinces of Khyber
Pakhtunkhwa and Balochistan, over the past few years have grown
exponentially. We continue to see attacks being launched from
Afghan territory, and you saw a major attack on Saturday in
which seven policemen were killed by the TTP, the Pakistani
Taliban, and we call on the Afghan Taliban to ensure that its
territory is not used as a launching pad for terrorist groups.
Second, we are very focused on economic stability for
Pakistan. For Pakistan to deal with its social, terrorism, and
political issues, it needs a functioning economy. And we want
private sector-led growth there, growth that benefits the
Pakistani people, not growth which fuels profits by lender
countries like the PRC.
And, last, we have a long partnership--people to people--
with Pakistan. We want to see that grow. We want to see
business-to-business relations improve. We want to see the ease
of Pakistani Americans to travel to Pakistan and Pakistanis to
travel to the United States. Those ties are critical.
I have two children in university right now. We have many,
many Pakistani friends as they have grown up, but also in
university. We want to see those numbers expand. Thank you.
Mr. Wilson. And, indeed, I am glad you--the Pakistani
American diaspora is so important. And they have been so
successful as entrepreneurs here in our country, and we want
them to send a message back of how free market capitalism has
such a positive consequence for the people of Pakistan.
Mr. Secretary, there have been unsubstantiated allegations
that the U.S. Government has conspired to remove Prime Minister
Imran Khan from power. What is your assessment of these untrue
speculations?
Mr. Lu. Mr. Chairman, I want to be very clear on this
point. These allegations, these--this conspiracy theory, is a
lie. It is a complete falsehood. I have reviewed the press
reporting related to this--what is called the cypher in
Pakistan, the alleged leak diplomatic cable from the Embassy
here. It is not accurate. At no point does it accuse the U.S.
Government or me personally of taking steps against Imran Khan.
And, third, the other person in the meeting, the then-
Ambassador of Pakistan to the United States, has testified to
his own government that there was no conspiracy.
We respect the sovereignty of Pakistan. We respect the
principle that Pakistani people should be the only ones
choosing their own leaders through a democratic process. Mr.
Chairman, we are grateful that you are holding this hearing
today for us to talk about that process.
Mr. Wilson. Thank you. And, hey, you response is so good
because it is so clear that you are correct, and we appreciate
so much your clarity on the issue, and good people, indeed. You
make a difference, so God bless you. Thank you.
And with that, I now recognize the ranking member, Dean
Phillips.
[Disturbance in the hearing room.]
Mr. Wilson. The chair notes a disturbance of the committee
proceedings. The room will be in order.
And we now proceed with Congressman Dean Phillips.
Mr. Phillips. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Secretary Lu, I appreciate your observations on the recent
election, both the positive elements and also the challenges.
In the State Department's post-election statement, the
indication was the United States is going to work with the next
Pakistani government regardless of the party. I just want to
clarify that that has always been the case, correct?
Mr. Lu. Yes, sir.
Mr. Phillips. And the Department has also expressed
concerns about human rights and democracy in Pakistan, where
appropriate, but has never taken a position on who should lead
an elected government in Pakistan. Is that correct?
Mr. Lu. That is correct.
Mr. Phillips. And the Department's statement also noted
that claims of interference or fraud should be fully
investigated. And since that aspect of the statement has gotten
a lot of play in the Pakistani press and on social media, could
you elaborate on what was intended by that statement?
Mr. Lu. Representative Phillips, the Pakistani people,
through their constitution, have created a system by which the
Election Commission of Pakistan hears the complaints of
Pakistani people, of candidates and political parties, to
render judgments about election irregularities. We, as a
partner of Pakistan, have called for that to be done
transparently and fully and for the--for those found
responsible for irregularities to be held accountable.
We can see a process whereby that is happening. The
Election Commission of Pakistan has formed a high-level
committee, which is now sifting through thousands of petitions
from people across Pakistan who have complained about the very
same things that we have noted in our statement.
We will be monitoring that process very closely. We will be
encouraging the government and the Election Commission to make
sure that that is a fully transparent process with the
Pakistani public.
Mr. Phillips. Mr. Lu, if you just might move your
microphone just a little closer, it is a little hard for some
of us to hear, too. Thank you.
This is not Pakistan-related per se, but it is your area of
responsibility, so I want to ask also about India. I know the
Administration is looking at accountability for the alarming
allegations that a government of India official was connected
to a murder for hire plot targeting a Sikh American here on
American soil in New York City.
The Administration, of course, recently placed sanctions on
more than 500 individuals relating to the killing of Alexei
Navalny in Russia on Russian soil.
So my question is, are any similar sanctions or travel bans
being considered for those who we believe may be responsible
for the attempted murder of Mr. Pannun?
Mr. Lu. Thank you, Representative Phillips. This is a
serious issue--a serious issue between the United States and
India. The Department of Justice has alleged that an Indian
citizen, at the behest of someone working in the Indian
Government, has attempted to kill an American citizen on
American soil.
We take this in the Administration incredibly seriously and
have raised it at the highest levels with India. We are, at the
moment, working with India to encourage India to hold
accountable those responsible for this terrible crime. What we
can see is that India itself has announced that they have
created a committee of inquiry to look into this matter, and we
ask them to work quickly and transparently to make sure justice
is done.
Mr. Phillips. Thank you. With the remainder of my time, I
would like to talk about economic issues. If you could give an
assessment of the current economic situation in Pakistan. Of
course, a growing economy is good for stability, it is good for
this partnership, and trade. I know it is still early, but if
you could provide an assessment of how you see things right
now, I would appreciate it.
Mr. Lu. Not only is it really important for the Pakistani
people that they have economic stability and economic growth,
it is important for America. We have lots of investments in
Pakistan. There are lots of franchises and American businesses
working throughout Pakistan. Their success is our success.
One of the issues I think that we face with the Pakistani
economy is a real difficulty to invest and to trade there. We
are calling on Pakistan to reform many of the ways it does
business with foreign partners, and in doing that they will
attract American investment, but they will also attract
investment from the Pakistani private sector.
Pakistani investors are smart. They want to work in a place
where they can make money. And so some of the things that we
are calling for are reform of the regulations that will allow
repatriation of profits out of the country, cutting down
bureaucratic red tape, and more predictable regulations.
If Pakistan is willing to do that, I think you will see
large numbers of American investors flocking to Pakistan. It is
a really interesting place to invest if it had the right
conditions.
Mr. Phillips. Thank you, sir.
And with that, I yield back.
Mr. Wilson. Thank you very much, Ranking Member Dean
Phillips.
We will now proceed to Congressman Rich McCormick of
Georgia.
Mr. McCormick. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I would like to point out that we, in Congress, have a job
to do. This is an incredibly important topic, and I think out
of respect for those people who are interested in this topic,
the people who want to be disruptive should be gaveled out and
removed from this hearing.
I think anybody who has earned this place, whether you be
in Congress or be a military member or be somebody from
Pakistan or be somebody who is interested in this topic, should
be respected. And those people who break the rules, should be
removed from and not be allowed back in in future, because this
continues to waste our time.
And with that, I am going to move, with your permission,
Chair, to have these people removed before I continue.
Mr. Wilson. So ordered.
Mr. McCormick. Thank you. All three that were speaking out.
Thank you. They are wearing red, in case you can't figure out
who they are.
[Disturbance in the hearing room.]
Mr. Wilson. The committee will suspend while the Capitol
Police restore order.
[Recess.]
Mr. Wilson. Congressman McCormick will now continue with
his full 5 minutes.
Mr. McCormick. Thank you, Mr. Chair. I have been
interrupted in the previous hearings, and I just want to make
sure we have some order.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I appreciate you. And I thank you,
Secretary Lu, for your testimony today.
Today's topic is very important to me. Whether we like it
or not, the U.S. future cannot include isolationism from the
rest of the world. American leadership will be required for our
country's future success and to ensure America remains first in
the world. We must remain robust partnerships and alliances
with nations that share our interests and values.
As nations like China and Russia and violent extremist
organizations threaten global stability, it is critical for
U.S. interests for South and Central Asia countries, such as
Pakistan and India, to continue developing stable and
transparent democracies. That is why I introduced House
Resolution 901 with my esteemed colleague from Michigan,
Representative Dan Kildee. The resolution affirms U.S. support
for democracy and human rights in Pakistan.
I am looking forward to H.Res. 901's consideration later
this afternoon as the House Foreign Affairs Committee marks it
up.
As I am sure you are aware, Pakistan recently conducted the
largest election in its history, but these were unfortunately
marred by allegations of fraudulent activity and electoral
violence. Watchdog groups raised the alarm over reports of
political repression, suspension of interest, access on
election day, delays in election results, and more. Currently,
the Election Commission of Pakistan is reviewing many of the
election results in individual parliamentary constituencies,
and the Pakistani judicial system is investigating and
educating--adjudicating irregularities.
In fact, the Ambassador from Pakistan came to my office
yesterday and talked about what they were going to try to do to
mitigate these problems. With all this being said, there must
be full, credible, and independent audit of these election
results.
Secretary Lu, do you think--and the State Department have
confidence in Pakistan's judicial process and its ability to
adjudicate claims of wrongdoing?
Mr. Lu. Thank you, Representative McCormick. If I might--
just before I answer that question, just say a word about
protests. We have just tremendous respect for the Pakistani-
American community. We pride ourselves in the State Department
and in my office about talking to Pakistani-Americans, because
they are the people in our vast country who care the most about
this relationship. They have something genuine to offer because
of their deep knowledge and the deep concern they have of the
future of the country.
And so I want to join the voices of this committee to say
how important their involvement is, how much we respect them.
We try to listen to them at every opportunity. I hope they are
also listening to all of you and to those of us who are trying
to guide this policy.
Mr. McCormick. Absolutely. And I will say, respectful
conversation is always paramount for me. I have met with
constituencies, I have people who have come here from all over
the United States that I have met with in my own district on
this topic. There is a time and a place for everyone to speak,
and that is order. That is something that we have worked hard
for.
Mr. Lu. Well, one of the things that I have faced over
these last 2 years is some of these allegations--unfounded
allegations--have resulted in regular death threats against me,
threats against my family, involvement of local police. There
is a line of acceptability, and I do think at times some of the
free speech has verged into threats of violence, which is not
acceptable in our society.
Sir, if I could answer your important question. The
Election Commission of Pakistan in past elections has rerun
elections where there has been a finding of electoral abuse. We
have seen that over and over. In fact, in this election, they
have already ordered the rerun of elections where there has
been violence.
As we know, there have been candidates who have been killed
in this election. There has been some terrible violence that
preceded the election. We call on the Election Commission to
fulfill its constitutional role in Pakistan to be the watchdog
over these elections and to act in a non-partisan way. We all
will be watching this process very, very closely.
As to whether they will do it, it is up to the Pakistani
people to make sure their institutions are functional and are
upholding their constitution.
Mr. McCormick. Thank you. And do you think that the
Pakistani government has the ability to continue to improve and
be accountable and be a good partner going forward as the
United States needs them to be in that region?
Mr. Lu. Pakistan is such an important partner of ours. They
are a major non-NATO ally. We have deep national security
interests with Pakistan, not least of which is the fight
against terrorism, not only terrorism that affects Pakistanis
but terrorism that affects Americans. And Pakistan has been a
partner in our resettling of Afghan refugees to whom we owe a
debt, and we are grateful to the people and the government of
Pakistan for that cooperation.
Mr. McCormick. Thank you, sir.
I yield.
Mr. Wilson. Thank you very much, Dr. Congressman Rich
McCormick of Georgia.
We now proceed to Congresswoman Kathy Manning of North
Carolina.
Ms. Manning. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Welcome back to my
good friend, Dean Phillips. And thank you, Assistant Secretary
Lu, for your service to our country.
I want to focus on the plight of women in Pakistan for a
few minutes. I am very concerned about the treatment of women
in Pakistan, including female journalists and women harassed
and arrested at protests and rallies leading up to the
election. As you know, Pakistan is routinely rated near the
bottom of the world in terms of women's inclusion, justice,
safety, and security.
So can you talk to us about how the State Department is
working to address gender-based violence and highlight and
improve the safety, the rights, the inclusion, and
representation of women in Pakistan's democracy.
Mr. Lu. Representative Manning, such an important question.
I wish I had my wife here sitting next to me. I met my wife in
Pakistan. She was an American refugee worker working with
Afghans. But her academic subject matter of specialty is
gender-based violence, and she has worked in Pakistan on this
very issue.
What I would say about Pakistan, its human rights, the
rights of women, I say about many countries, but I really mean
it, which is we, as foreign partners, aren't going to be able
to change Pakistan. Who will change Pakistan? Pakistani people
will. And we see that very strong desire of women across
Pakistan to be heard, to be represented, and to have their
rights respected by the institutions of government, as well as
by the rest of society.
I see great victories in Pakistan every day, as I
mentioned, double the number of women elected to this
Parliament.
Ms. Manning. And do you see----
Mr. Lu. Incredible.
Ms. Manning. Do you see that as a positive moment that will
actually give hope and perhaps achieve new things for women in
Pakistan?
Mr. Lu. I see the emergence of female leaders in Pakistan
at every level as being the examples that will lead their
society forward. You are entirely right. At the village level
in Pakistan, lives for women are incredibly difficult. I see
more women today in senior positions in business. I see them on
the high court. I see them in Parliament. I see them as
ministers.
Honestly, some days Pakistanis are doing better than
Americans on some of these questions. It is a struggle for all
of us, but I do credit the very brave women and young girls who
are leading this path in Pakistan. And I think, as foreign
partners, we need to put our resources, our public statements,
and our activism behind Pakistani female leaders.
Ms. Manning. And can you give us some idea of the
percentage of participation of Pakistani women in the economy?
And are there hurdles to greater participation? And is there
anything we can do to encourage greater participation?
Mr. Lu. One of the real issues for every business in
Pakistan, but particularly for women-owned businesses, is
access to financing. And so one of the things that I have seen
over the course of my career, and particularly in Pakistan, is
the emergence of these micro finance projects, because largely
women-owned interests--businesses are not the massive textile
mills or the steel plants. They are small businesses. They are
businesses run out of homes or small shops in local
communities.
If women have access to that financing, women will succeed
in business. USAID, the EU, the United Kingdom, Japan,
Australia, many, many of Pakistan's donor friends are investing
in those types of businesses, while the PRC and other countries
are investing in literally roads to nowhere that bleed the
Pakistani people of their resources year after year.
Ms. Manning. So we have certainly talked about giving women
access to more financial opportunities in this committee. I
hope we will continue to do that in the future.
Because you have mentioned China, let me walk into this
question with the little time I have left. Pakistan faces a
grave challenge--has faced grave challenges in recent years
from flooding, from indebtedness to creditors like China. What
more can we do to counterbalance what China is doing and the
debt that they are helping create in Pakistan?
Mr. Lu. We can compete. Where we fail overseas, we are not
present. Where we compete, we always win because we have a
better offer. We offer private sector-led investment for
profit-making enterprises that benefit local people and not
just the lender countries.
Ms. Manning. Thank you. My time has expired.
I yield back.
Mr. Wilson. Thank you very much, Congresswoman Kathy
Manning of North Carolina.
We will be proceeding to Congressman Mike Lawler in one
second. Even before, I want to thank you for pointing out the
different allies working with Pakistan, and one that you left
out, which is so significant, and that is South Korea. To go
from ashes 60 years ago to be one of the wealthiest countries
on Earth is an example throughout the Indo-Pacific and South
Asia of achieving a per capita income of $44,000 for each
citizen, who would ever imagine? And I know that Korea has been
vitally interested in developing economic ties with the people
of Pakistan.
With that, we now proceed to Congressman Mike Lawler.
Mr. Lawler. Thank you, Mr. Lu. I know many of my colleagues
touched on the election irregularities and some of the concerns
about it, so I want to segue a little bit.
Just a few weeks ago, the government of Pakistan approved
plans to begin construction on a pipeline to transport natural
gas from Iran to Pakistan. Iran constructed its side of the
pipeline years ago, and now Pakistan has finally decided to
move forward.
Mr. Lu, do you view this pipeline as Pakistan aligning
itself with Iran?
Mr. Lu. I mean, it is a really interesting question,
Representative Lawler, because Pakistan and Iran just traded
missile and drone strikes a few weeks ago. So has been true
over time that Pakistan and Iran have had ups and downs in
their relationship. They are at a pretty low point today.
We are tracking this planned pipeline between Iran and
Pakistan. Honestly, I don't know where the financing for such a
project would come from. I don't think many international
donors would be interested in funding such an endeavor.
We have also not heard from the government of Pakistan a
desire for a waiver of American sanctions that would certainly
result from such a project. Instead, what we are undertaking in
the Administration is to have a conversation with Pakistan.
What are Pakistan's other alternatives? How can we compete for
that business? Where can they find other non-Iranian sources of
natural gas? And how can we help Pakistan think about the
transition to clean energy?
Pakistan is very interested in providing energy through
solar, through wind, through hydro. How can that begin to
replace their dependence on coal and other hydrocarbons?
Mr. Lawler. OK. So have you expressed direct concern with
the Pakistani government on this issue?
Mr. Lu. We are in consultation with the Pakistani
government on this issue. Yes, sir.
Mr. Lawler. Okay. I mean, my concern is that Iran is the
greatest State sponsor of terror. They use the elicit Iranian
petroleum oil trade to finance terrorism. Since Joe Biden took
office, nearly 88 billion in increased revenue has resulted
because of lax enforcement on sanctions. It is why I introduced
the SHIP Act, to increase secondary sanctions on the purchase
of Iranian petroleum. It passed through the House
overwhelmingly, with bipartisan support, and has since stalled
in the Senate because the White House doesn't want it.
So, from my vantage point, when we talk about other
alternatives that Pakistan may be able to engage on, why don't
we start by cracking down on the illicit oil trade? Why is the
Administration taking a very lax approach to cracking down on
Iranian petroleum?
Mr. Lu. Sir, the Administration will uphold both the letter
and the spirit of all sanction laws, particularly those related
to Iran.
Mr. Lawler. Do you think an increase of 88 billion in
revenue is upholding the letter and spirit of the law?
Mr. Lu. Sir, I am not an expert in Iranian energy exports,
but what I know as a person who has a car that is fueled by
gasoline is all of us have paid for higher gasoline after
Putin's full-scale invasion of Ukraine. And I----
Mr. Lawler. Well, that is also----
Mr. Lu. Sir?
Mr. Lawler [continuing]. a result in this country of us
limiting production of oil and natural gas in this country.
That is why we are dealing with our own energy challenges.
Mr. Lu. Sir, if I can----
Mr. Lawler. Across the globe----
Mr. Lu [continuing]. answer your question, I----
Mr. Lawler. Well, you went in a total non sequitur, but
sure.
Mr. Lu. I fully support the efforts by the U.S. Government
to prevent this pipeline from happening. We are working toward
that goal, sir.
Mr. Lawler. Okay. How does the Administration view
Pakistan's relationship with the Taliban?
Mr. Lu. With suspicion, sir.
Mr. Lawler. And so what are we doing, based on that
suspicion?
Mr. Lu. So I think it is well known that previous
governments of Pakistan have had close relations with the
Taliban. Currently, the greatest terrorist threat faced by the
people of Pakistan emanates from Afghanistan. And the
relationship between Pakistan and the Taliban is about the same
as the relationship between the United States and the Taliban.
It is very strained and difficult.
We have a very important dialog with the Pakistani
government about the Taliban, how to help shape its behavior,
how to help make sure the Taliban upholds its commitments.
Mr. Lawler. Last question. Why was the--why was Pakistan
excluded from the Administration's Indo-Pacific strategy?
Mr. Lu. Sir, it is a way that we define the Indo-Pacific.
And it is not only this Administration, it is the last
Administration as well. For whatever reason, I suspect it has
to do with COCOM authority between the Indo-Pacific Command and
Central Command. The dividing line of the Indo-Pacific is the
line between Pakistan and India.
Mr. Burchett.
[Presiding] Time is up. I am going to have to cut you off,
Mr. Lu. There is a new sheriff in town. It is me.
Mr. Lu. I recognize the sheriff's authority.
Mr. Burchett. Brad Sherman from California, you are
recognized, sir.
Mr. Sherman. We have substantial leverage in Pakistan in
two ways: first, the IMF, where we have a loud voice and we
should use it more often; and, second, we could deny visas to
high-ranking Pakistani officials.
We need to focus on human rights in Pakistan. I am
particularly focused on Sindh and the disappearances there, the
forced conversions of young girls forced to convert and then
marry old men. And we have seen throughout Pakistan a blasphemy
law that allows a person to complain, and all of a sudden
someone who is not Muslim usually is subject to detention and
even execution.
But the greatest problem is Dr. Afridi. That is something
we discussed in this room last decade again and again. He is in
jail for 14 years. We released Viktor Bout to get an American
back. And the message to everyone in the world--and this is a
national security risk--is don't cooperate with the CIA,
because if you are an American national, we will move heaven
and earth to get you out. But if you are the one foreign
national who did the most for America of anyone this century,
you will rot in jail.
The Pakistanis have said that they will do a Siddiqui for
Afridi trade. Ms. Siddiqui didn't kill any Americans, tried to,
ought to be in jail, is now perhaps incapacitated anyway. Will
we trade Siddiqui for Afridi? And, if not, will we ban from
entry into this country those who are holding her hostage, Dr.
Afridi hostage? Or do we just turn our back on any foreign
national? The man who is responsible for getting Bin Laden is
in a Pakistani jail.
Mr. Lu. Representative Sherman, I first want to thank you
personally, but also thank this committee and the Congress----
Mr. Sherman. Sir, I have one--I will yield 10 seconds to
say Siddiqui for Afridi, yes or no?
Mr. Lu. Mr. Sherman, I have been in this job for more than
2-1/2 years. I have never had a Pakistani official raise with
me----
Mr. Sherman. They have told me. They have told your
predecessor. They have told the State Department. Afridi is in
jail. You haven't done anything about it, and he is the man
that helped us get Bin Laden.
But let's move on.
Mr. Lu. Sir? Sir, if I can just----
Mr. Sherman. Sir, I only get 5 minutes.
Mr. Lu. Go ahead.
Mr. Sherman. We have the exit control list where hundreds
of American citizens are prohibited from leaving Pakistan. Will
we treat them the same way we deal with everyone else who is
wrongfully detained in Russia and elsewhere? What are we doing
to get American citizens who have not been even charged with a
crime out of Pakistan if they want to leave?
Mr. Lu. Representative Sherman, we work every day on behalf
of American citizens in Pakistan. As you note, there are some
laws that have put undue restrictions on Americans. We have had
a very positive track record----
Mr. Sherman. But hundreds--I mean, hundreds are still
there, and the IMF loan goes forward. And we allow the top
generals in Pakistan to visit the United States when American
citizens can't leave Pakistan and come to the United States. We
then have the vote tabulation system, and they have banned the
bat, the symbol of the PTI. Then they banned the batsman.
And this is--I mean, there have been flaws in other
Pakistani elections, but this is perhaps the greatest flaw. And
we are told, and the Pakistani Ambassadors told me, well, this
is just the ordinary working of the Pakistani judicial system.
That is the same judicial system that has Dr. Afridi in jail
for 14 years for getting Bin Laden.
Do we have faith that Imran Khan has not been the victim of
selective prosecution? Or is it apparent that he has been?
[Applause.]
Mr. Lu. Sir, following the rioting on May 9, the day Imran
Khan was arrested, the U.S. Government has raised our concerns
about the mass detention of members of the opposition, to
include the PTI. We have raised concerns about the use of
military courts----
Mr. Sherman. If I can interrupt, there is one thing you
need to do. The American ambassador needs to visit Imran Khan
in prison and make sure that he lives to tell the tale of how
he was wrongfully imprisoned through selective prosecution.
I yield back.
Mr. Burchett. Thank you, Mr. Sherman. Excellent questions.
Representative Baird is not here, so I am the next in line.
Secretary Lu, could you provide insight in the involvement of
the military in the politics of Pakistan?
[Applause.]
Mr. Burchett. Hold on. Y'all don't need to clap for me. I
am good. I am good. We are good. Thank you, all.
Go ahead, brother.
Mr. Lu. The Pakistani military is the sixth largest
military in the world and the largest of any majority Muslim
country. The U.S. military has historically had very close
relations with the Pakistani military. Our generals and their
generals have trained together decade after decade.
It is an important part of Pakistani culture. I have lived
in Pakistan. I have seen that for myself. The Pakistani
military is an important institution. We respect, in this
Administration and all past American Administrations, the
constitutional principle that the Pakistani military must be
kept under civilian control. It must be answerable to the
President.
Mr. Burchett. But is it?
Mr. Lu. Answerable to the President, sir, who is the
commander in chief, and responsible to civilian control.
Mr. Burchett. Okay. Do you all at the State Department
intend to conduct a review of the most recent elections in
Pakistan?
Mr. Lu. Sir, we have conducted that review, and we have
found a number of election irregularities that I have detailed
today.
Mr. Burchett. Right.
Mr. Lu. What we are undertaking right now is a monitoring
of how the democratic institutions of Pakistan will address
those irregularities. It is----
Mr. Burchett. I would suggest to you that a strong letter
is not doing a whole heck of a lot. I would tell you that this
country needs to start using its economic might to correct some
of these wrongs. These people are being mistreated. You know, I
am not much on bureaucrats. I don't like writing letters. I
like delivering it personally, and I think that is something we
could do.
Did the U.S. ask for former Prime Minister Imran Khan's
removal after he visited Russia?
Mr. Lu. We did not, sir.
Mr. Burchett. Okay. There are people who believe you were
involved in the regime change in Pakistan. Can you speak on
that?
[Applause.]
Mr. Lu. Sir, I was absolutely not involved, nor were any
Americans involved with that process.
Mr. Burchett. None whatsoever.
Mr. Lu. None whatsoever, sir.
Mr. Burchett. Not contractors, not----
Mr. Lu. None. Not one.
Mr. Burchett. Okay. And aid to Pakistan being withheld--is
aid to Pakistan being withheld because Pakistan refused to vote
against the Russian invasion of Ukraine at the United Nations
General Assembly?
Mr. Lu. No, sir.
Mr. Burchett. All right. I have a little more time left. Do
I have any members--I tell you what. Okay. Hang on for a
second, you all. I am not used to this.
All right. Well, I will end mine then. I will--
Representative Schneider from Illinois.
Mr. Schneider. Thank you, Chairman Burchett.
Mr. Burchett. Oh, wait. I am sorry. It is not you. It is
Amo. I am sorry. Do you all want to fight it out or can I----
Mr. Schneider. No. Go ahead.
Mr. Burchett. Okay. I apologize. I am new at this. That is
why they don't let me do this very often.
Mr. Amo. Well, you are doing a great job, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Burchett. That is just because I recognized you.
Mr. Amo. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you to Ranking
Member Phillips. And greetings, Assistant Secretary Lu.
I know we have touched on some of the election issues
before. But like many other members of this committee, I am
concerned, concerned by the trends, but also concerned by the
elections specifically. As we know, in early February, the
elections were held after a nearly 3-month delay. That raised
serious concerns about the democratic process in Pakistan.
I also know that the State Department joined other
international election observers in expressing concern that the
election included undue restrictions on freedoms of expression,
association, and assembly. So, you know, I want to reiterate my
personal concern. The incoming that I have received has really
been illuminating and suggested that there is more that we can
do.
I could share the chair's urging in his recent remarks that
our country uses its levers to ensure that democracy is upheld.
That is also why I am proud to co-sponsor House Resolution 901.
This resolution reaffirms the House of Representatives' strong
support for democracy in Pakistan and urges the government of
Pakistan to uphold democracy and protect fundamental rights.
But as we, you know, look more broadly at human rights in
Pakistan, the State Department, your agency's most recent human
rights report highlighted significant human rights challenges
in Pakistan, including restrictions on freedom of expression
and freedom of the press.
Credible threats of violence, harassment, abductions, and
killings by security forces, political parties, and other
groups have led citizens and journalists to self-censor their
speech for their own safety. The State Department found that
the Pakistani government's failure to investigate and prosecute
attacks on free speech and the press have effectively led to
restrictions on free speech and the press in a very dramatic
way.
You know, really, what I want to hear is, how can and how
will the United States work with the Pakistani government to
support meaningful change to promote freedom of speech and
freedom of the press?
Mr. Lu. Sir, I have the pleasure and responsibility of
reading the Pakistani media on a daily basis. And I will
confirm what is in our human rights report is there is both
self-censorship and occasionally active censorship in Pakistan
today. At the same time, what I read in the Pakistani press is
a cacophony of voices. There is actually competition in the
media with respect to things that are said and not said, as
well as in social media.
And so one of the most damaging things that we see today
are restrictions on social media, because like the rest of the
world, Pakistanis are getting a lot of their news and
information through the internet. And so when internet gets--
the internet gets pulled down or X gets throttled, as it has
been now for several weeks, it denies the Pakistani people from
getting the kind of diversity of reporting and information that
they deserve.
We are talking to the Pakistani government at the highest
level about these issues. We are also working year after year
in the trenches with Pakistani civil society to help to train
journalists about fact checking, about responsible sourcing of
their information, about journalistic standards. And what I can
also see is, while there is censorship, both self and active,
we can also see the development of some truly excellent
journalism coming out of Pakistan and some very brave
journalists who defy these sensors and still produce things
that call into question the government or the military or the
Americans or any number of other institutions of authority.
Mr. Amo. If I may, what exactly have those conversations
yielded with the government? Because, I mean, it is one thing
to have them, but it is another to be pursuing, you know, some
outcomes that are beneficial to the values that we uphold here
and we want to see in a real active democratic society.
Mr. Lu. I do think it is important for both the
Administration and the Congress to say loud and clear that we
are watching what happens in Pakistan. We are watching closely
its human rights record, what it does with respect to religious
freedom, and what it is doing on free speech.
I grant you, I don't know that what we say today affects
exactly what they are going to do tomorrow, but over time if we
let up on these values it is going to be worse because they can
see that there are no consequences for these violations.
Mr. Amo. Well, my time is expiring. The only thing that I
want to leave you with is I think we have a responsibility to
make that concern clearer, more active, and seek the outcomes
that we believe in in maintaining our democracy.
My time has expired.
Mr. Lu. Yes, sir.
Mr. Amo. I yield back to the chair.
Mr. Wilson.
[Presiding] Thank you very much.
And we now proceed to Congressman Brad Schneider of
Illinois, and of course it is really easy to get confused
between Gabe Amo and Brad Schneider. They both come from
assorted northern states, Rhode Island and now Illinois.
Mr. Schneider. Thank you, Chairman Wilson. And no good deed
going unpunished, Gabe asked the question I wanted to ask, and
thank you for your answer. I am going to build on that.
You know, in your written testimony, you concluded that the
Pakistani people deserve a country that is peaceful,
democratic, and prosperous. Quotes. And we just talked a little
bit about what the United States can do, but let me just say
here that a peaceful, democratic, and prosperous Pakistan is
not just important to the Pakistanis. It is in the interest of
the United States as well, and that is why we are having this
hearing.
And I thank the chairman for calling it, and we are
addressing what has been discussed, very real concerns about
the election, but also recognizing, as you noted in your
testimony, the positive elements seen in the election and how
we buildupon them. I hope we continue those conversations.
I want to shift gears a little bit and touch on Afghan
deportations, though. I share with others the deep concern of
these mass deportations of undocumented Afghans back to
Afghanistan where they are going to live in horrible
humanitarian conditions under the Taliban.
Human Rights Watch claims that Pakistani authorities have
committed widespread abuses against Afghans living in Pakistan
to compel their return to Afghanistan, including by
confiscating property, destroying documents, and physically
abusing individuals. Has the U.S. raised these concerns with
the government at all? And how is the U.S. working with the
international community to push back against this policy?
Mr. Lu. Thank you, sir. We have had discussions with the
Pakistani government at the highest levels about these
deportations. As you know, as has been well documented, over
half a million Afghans have returned to Afghanistan following
this effort by the Pakistani government to remove illegal
foreigners.
From the first day of that process, we have been in touch
with the Pakistani government, both about the humanitarian
consequences of this mass deportation but also to try to
protect those Afghans who have a pathway to coming to the
United States. There are thousands of Afghans who worked with
us, who worked with our Embassy or our military, who have fled
to Pakistan and sought sanctuary there. We have been very keen
that those Afghans are allowed to stay, so we can process them.
Mr. Schneider. And they are still in processing, so----
Mr. Lu. And they are. And the Pakistani government has
actually on this one issue been very supportive. We are
grateful for that.
On the broader issue, we are talking with the new
government now about trying to make sure that the rights of
Afghan refugees are respected. We are thankful, right, the
Pakistani people have hosted over 3 million Afghan refugees now
for over 40 years. It is historic in proportion. That sacrifice
does not go unnoticed.
At the same time, we very much hope they work with the
UNHCR as they enter this next phase where they are trying to
figure out whether more people are returning, whether some of
those who have returned are able to come back to Pakistan, and
those--the needs of those refugees are being met.
Mr. Schneider. Thank you.
Mr. Lu. Yes, sir.
Mr. Schneider. And I have raised this previously with the
Ambassador, Pakistani Ambassador as well, and look forward to
working with you to make sure that happens.
I will shift gears again. We touched on this. I will pick
up where Mr. Lawler left off. Pakistan-Iranian relations, you
mentioned the escalation, the recent escalatory environment,
the strikes in January. Where do you see that moving? Do you
think the strikes were one-off occurrences or something that
could continue to escalate in the future?
Mr. Lu. Sir, as you know, the strikes were not only against
Pakistan. They were against three countries simultaneously by
Iran. It is reprehensible and irresponsible for Iran to lash
out against its neighbors for terrorism that exists in Iran
itself.
So, as you may be tracking, those three missile and drone
strikes that happened in January followed a really terrible
terrorist attack that occurred within Iran. And the government
of Iran clearly felt like it had to respond in some way. They
responded in the worst way possible by firing missiles at
targets that they probably didn't well understand, which for
our information ended up killing lots of civilians in three
countries, including in Pakistan.
Mr. Schneider. And with my last----
Mr. Lu. We have strongly condemned Iran's actions.
Mr. Schneider [continuing]. few seconds, can you just touch
on the U.S. messaging to the Pakistani government regarding
their direct engagement with Tehran on security matters,
especially in the context of our concerns, our mutual concerns,
of nuclear proliferation and Iran's nuclear program?
Mr. Lu. Sir, we have warned them about our red lines,
legislative, but also in terms of how we cooperate with
Pakistan. If they get into bed with Iran, it will be very
serious for our relationship.
Mr. Schneider. Okay. We need to reiterate that again and
again and again.
With that, I yield back.
Mr. Wilson. Thank you very much, Congressman Brad Schneider
of Illinois.
We now proceed to Congressman Greg Casar of Texas.
Mr. Casar. Thank you, Chair, and thanks also to the ranking
member for having me here today.
Mr. Lu, I am sure you are aware I led a letter, alongside
30 of my colleagues here in Congress, to the State Department,
as well as to the President--you have got it right there--
talking about credible allegations of election rigging in the
Pakistani elections. And we urged that the Administration
withhold recognition of the new government in Pakistan until a
credible and transparent investigation on election interference
had been conducted.
I know that the U.S. Embassy congratulated Mr. Sharif,
quote, ``on his assumption of the office of Prime Minister,''
but I haven't seen a statement yet from the State Department
itself. So just so we are clear, at this point, yes or no, has
the U.S. officially recognized the new government in Pakistan?
Mr. Lu. Representative Casar, I would like to answer with a
yes or no. The actual answer is a little more complicated, if
you will allow me. The government of the United States, we
don't actually go around recognizing or withholding recognition
of new governments. That is not something we do anywhere around
the world.
What we do do is we decide whether we are going to engage
with a government. And so, yes, you have seen actions by our
Ambassador, our Embassy. We are in every interaction with this
government stressing the importance of accountability for
election irregularities, sir.
Can I just also add, your letter is incredibly important.
It is important that the Pakistani people, the Pakistani
government, hear not only from the Administration but from
Members of Congress, and having so many of them speak together
has real influence.
The Administration largely agrees with your
recommendations. We have done many of the things that you have
proposed. We have said publicly and privately that we want to
see transparent and credible investigation of election
irregularities. We have called for accountability for mass
detentions of people in the opposition, and we have said loudly
and clearly that military trials for civilians accused of
crimes after May 9 is not in keeping with international norms.
Mr. Casar. I appreciate that. And so in other cases, for
example, in the case of Venezuela or some other countries,
where the State Department has spoken out very clearly about
election rigging, and we can talk about--you know, separately
about how it is that we treat those governments or treat those
countries, but it seems that when we have had allegations of
election rigging that we have spoken out much more clearly than
in this case. And I would urge that we continue to speak with
the level of moral clarity that we have in other situations.
But I appreciate your recognition and speaking out here today
about how it is not okay for us to be having journalists
jailed, for Twitter to get shut down, for there to be this
continued very clear to me interference in democracy.
Given the credibility allegations of fraud and rigging,
what gives you confidence that this government will have the
democratic legitimacy necessary, not only for the interests of
the Pakistani people, but for the interests of the United
States?
[Applause.]
Mr. Lu. Sir, the political and economic stability of
Pakistan is important for the United States. It is important
that the Pakistani people----
Mr. Casar. And I am short on time. Is it just--is it your
sense right now that there is going to be that democratic
legitimacy? Or is that--or do we have real concerns? I am
sorry. I have one more question for you, so just give me a----
Mr. Lu. Sir, I think that is up to the process ongoing now
in the Electoral Commission of Pakistan.
Mr. Casar. One more question. Most security assistance to
Pakistan has been suspended since 2018. Recently, the Pakistani
Ambassador said that Pakistan is awaiting a decision from the
U.S. on increasing military sales and financing. Yes or no, are
there ongoing conversations about increasing military
assistance to Pakistan?
Mr. Lu. No. Ongoing conversation about large-scale
increases, no.
Mr. Casar. That is good to hear. Given that the U.S. has
already sent hundreds of millions of dollars in aid, are there
any steps the State Department is taking to ensure that the aid
we send is not used for any of these abuses that you have
identified?
[Applause.]
Mr. Lu. Sir, absolutely. There is very close monitoring of
where our military assistance goes around the world, including
to Pakistan. For example, the F-16s sold to Pakistan over 40
years ago have active U.S. technical security teams monitoring
their use every day.
Mr. Casar. Thank you for that. Has the U.S. identified any
units of military or security forces that would not be eligible
for aid?
Mr. Lu. Yes.
Mr. Casar. We have identified those. Thank you. Thank you
for your clear answers. Thank you for being here through this
hearing, and I hope that we can after this hearing continue the
work of making sure that we actually fully investigate the
election and that we actually make sure people are let out of
jail that were put in there unfairly because democracy in
Pakistan, of course, will serve the people of Pakistan, but it
is so clearly in the United States' interest.
I started out on this seeing the failures we had in Latin
America of prioritizing military relationships over democratic
relationships, and it never served us there and it won't serve
us in Pakistan or anywhere else. So thank you so much, Mr. Lu.
Mr. Lu. Thank you, sir.
[Applause.]
Mr. Casar. I yield back, Chair.
Mr. Wilson. Thank you very much, Congressman Greg Casar of
Texas.
And now proof that we have got really good people from
Texas on both sides, Congressman August Pfluger of Texas.
Mr. Pfluger. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And thank you for
letting me waive on to this committee. I know that we have been
having this discussion between several members--bipartisan
discussions--on this very important issue.
So I very much appreciate the ability to waive on today
and, obviously, have some concerns about what has happened in
the past few weeks and months, and appreciate you being here,
Mr. Lu. Thank you for your time today.
These questions have probably been asked, but I want to ask
them again. As an interested citizen, as somebody who believes
in free and fair elections, and really just want to get a
general assessment regarding the fairness of the elections in
Pakistan, what your general thought is before I go into some
deeper questions.
Mr. Lu. Sir, we share the view of local election observers
who have in summary said this was a competitive and orderly
election, but they note irregularities in the compilation of
the results. That should be fully investigated.
Mr. Pfluger. Do you believe that the recent election was
free and fair?
Mr. Lu. Sir, we have never used the term ``free and fair''
in the characterization of this election.
Mr. Pfluger. To what level, then, would you say
interference happened?
Mr. Lu. Sir, we have expressed, and I have said this
multiple times today, serious concerns about the pre-election
environment, violence occurred, terrorism and political
violence. We have expressed concern about the failure to
register individual candidates and political parties, the mass
arrests of those in opposition, the shutdown of the internet,
and the censorship and pressure placed on journalists.
Mr. Pfluger. Do you believe that those without those
specific examples--and would definitely like to hear more
examples, but without those examples of interference--I am not
sure if you are going to use that term--but please tell me what
adjective you would use to describe it. And without those
things having happened, would the election results be
different?
[Applause.]
Mr. Lu. Sir, you ask an important question, and I think the
answer to your question is the Election Commission of Pakistan,
should it find that these irregularities are substantiated,
should rerun elections where there has been interference. And
that is the way the Pakistani people will know--it is probably
unlikely that an American diplomat will know whether or now the
results would turn out, but they will turn out the way they
should if the Election Commission reruns constituencies.
Mr. Pfluger. What is the Department of State doing to urge
Pakistan--the government of Pakistan, those that govern the
elections, to do just that?
Mr. Lu. Sir, we have made very clear public and private
statements. We have said so clearly to Pakistan's leaders but
also to election officials, that there is an expectation of all
of Pakistan's partners, not only the United States, that they
conduct elections with integrity.
Mr. Pfluger. So you believe these should be fully
investigated and adjudicated?
Mr. Lu. Yes, sir.
Mr. Pfluger. Tell me what this does to the relationship
between the United States and Pakistan if they are not
investigated, if they are not adjudicated, if they do not
decide to rerun their elections?
Mr. Lu. We have enjoyed 76 years of partnership with this
country. It will be an impediment to our relationship if
Pakistan does not have a democratic process that upholds its
own constitution. It will retard our ability to have the type
of relationship we want in security matters, on business
fronts, and people to people. All of that suffers if Pakistan
is not a full democracy.
Mr. Pfluger. Recently, I marked up in the Committee of
Homeland Security a bill that will soon go to the full
committee--in the Homeland Committee on transnational
repression. Is the State Department monitoring reports of
transnational repression made by Pakistani Americans? And, if
so, what steps is the State Department taking to address these
topics?
Mr. Lu. Sir, we are tracking transnational repression
around the world, including with respect to allegations made
about Pakistan. We are looking very closely at the examples
offered. If we find that they are substantiated, we will
address them directly with the Pakistani government.
Mr. Pfluger. I thank the witness.
Mr. Chairman, once again, thank you for letting me waive
on. I yield back.
Mr. Wilson. Thank you very much, Congressman August Pfluger
of Texas.
[Applause.]
Mr. Wilson. And I want to thank the witness for the
valuable testimony and the members for their questions. The
members of the subcommittee may have some additional questions
for the witness, and we will ask you to respond to these in
writing.
Pursuant to Committee Rules, all members have 5 days to
submit statements, questions, and extraneous materials for the
record, subject to the length limitations.
Without objection, the subcommittee stands adjourned.
[Whereupon, at 11:41 a.m., the subcommittee was adjourned.]
APPENDIX
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