[House Hearing, 118 Congress]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]


                        ENSURING TIMELY ACCESS:
                      CHALLENGES IN VA SCHEDULING
=======================================================================

                                HEARING

                               BEFORE THE

                        SUBCOMMITTEE ON TECHNOLOGY 
                             MODERNIZATION

                                OF THE

                     COMMITTEE ON VETERANS' AFFAIRS

                     U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

                    ONE HUNDRED EIGHTEENTH CONGRESS

                             SECOND SESSION

                               __________

                      THURSDAY, SEPTEMBER 26, 2024

                               __________

                           Serial No. 118-85

                               __________

       Printed for the use of the Committee on Veterans' Affairs
       
[GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]       

                    Available via http://govinfo.gov
                    
                               __________
                               
                 U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE
58-232                  WASHINGTON : 2026
=======================================================================
                    
                     COMMITTEE ON VETERANS' AFFAIRS

                     MIKE BOST, Illinois, Chairman

AUMUA AMATA COLEMAN RADEWAGEN,       MARK TAKANO, California, Ranking 
    American Samoa, Vice-Chairwoman      Member
JACK BERGMAN, Michigan               JULIA BROWNLEY, California
NANCY MACE, South Carolina           MIKE LEVIN, California
MATTHEW M. ROSENDALE, SR., Montana   CHRIS PAPPAS, New Hampshire
MARIANNETTE MILLER-MEEKS, Iowa       FRANK J. MRVAN, Indiana
GREGORY F. MURPHY, North Carolina    SHEILA CHERFILUS-MCCORMICK, 
C. SCOTT FRANKLIN, Florida               Florida
DERRICK VAN ORDEN, Wisconsin         CHRISTOPHER R. DELUZIO, 
MORGAN LUTTRELL, Texas                   Pennsylvania
JUAN CISCOMANI, Arizona              MORGAN MCGARVEY, Kentucky
ELIJAH CRANE, Arizona                DELIA C. RAMIREZ, Illinois
KEITH SELF, Texas                    GREG LANDSMAN, Ohio
JENNIFER A. KIGGANS, Virginia        NIKKI BUDZINSKI, Illinois

                       Jon Clark, Staff Director
                  Matt Reel, Democratic Staff Director

                SUBCOMMITTEE ON TECHNOLOGY MODERNIZATION

              MATTHEW M. ROSENDALE, SR., Montana, Chairman

NANCY MACE, South Carolina           SHEILA CHERFILUS-MCCORMICK, 
KEITH SELF, Texas                        Florida, Ranking Member
                                     GREG LANDSMAN, Ohio

Pursuant to clause 2(e)(4) of Rule XI of the Rules of the House, public 
hearing records of the Committee on Veterans' Affairs are also 
published in electronic form. The printed hearing record remains the 
official version. Because electronic submissions are used to prepare 
both printed and electronic versions of the hearing record, the process 
of converting between various electronic formats may introduce 
unintentional errors or omissions. Such occurrences are inherent in the 
current publication process and should diminish as the process is 
further refined.
                         
                         C  O  N  T  E  N  T  S

                              ----------                              

                      THURSDAY, SEPTEMBER 26, 2024

                                                                   Page

                           OPENING STATEMENTS

The Honorable Matthew M. Rosendale, Sr., Chairman................     1
The Honorable Sheila Cherfilus-McCormick, Ranking Member.........     2

                               WITNESSES
                                Panel I

Ms. Cherri Waters, Executive Director, Health Portfolio, Office 
  of Information & Technology, U.S. Department of Veterans 
  Affairs........................................................     4

        Accompanied by:

    Ms. Hillary Peabody, Acting Assistant Under Secretary for 
        Health for Integrated Veteran Care, Veterans Health 
        Administration, U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs

    Mr. Mark Hausman, M.D., Executive Director for Integrated 
        Access, Veterans Health Administration, U.S. Department 
        of Veterans Affairs

                                APPENDIX
                    Prepared Statements Of Witnesses

Ms. Cherri Waters Prepared Statement.............................    23

                       Statements For The Record

Questions for the Record Submitted by The Honorable Matthew M. 
  Rosendale, U.S. House of Representatives, (MT-02)..............    25
U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs Response to Questions for the 
  Record.........................................................    27

 
                        ENSURING TIMELY ACCESS:
                      CHALLENGES IN VA SCHEDULING

                              ----------                              


                      THURSDAY, SEPTEMBER 26, 2024

  Subcommittee on Technology Modernization,
                    Committee on Veterans' Affairs,
                             U.S. House of Representatives,
                                                    Washington, DC.
    The subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 9:07 a.m., in 
room 360, Cannon House Office Building, Hon. Matt Rosendale 
(chairman of the subcommittee) presiding.
    Present: Representatives Rosendale, and Cherfilus-
McCormick.

      OPENING STATEMENT OF MATTHEW M. ROSENDALE, CHAIRMAN

    Mr. Rosendale. Good morning. The subcommittee will come to 
order. I want to welcome our witnesses to discuss the efforts 
to modernize the U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs' (VA) 
appointment scheduling process. Ten years after the wait time 
scandal, it is still too difficult for veterans to get 
appointments in the Veterans Health Administration (VHA) or in 
the community. Some members of this committee have been eager 
to get into arguments about VHA care versus community care. I 
believe veterans should have all the information and the VA 
should respect their choices. I was charged with making sure 
our veterans get the care that they have earned when they want 
it, where they want it, period.
    I can tell you, in Montana, community care is an absolute 
necessity, but the reality is both systems are still far too 
bureaucratic and difficult to navigate. It is also still too 
complicated for the VA employees to manage scheduling. These 
Information Technology (IT) systems have not been a high 
priority, and the projects that are consuming the lion's share 
of the IT budget do little to solve the problem. I am glad to 
see our witnesses working on the integrated scheduling 
solution, the clinical capacity search tool, and the clinic 
configuration manager to improve VHA scheduling. I question why 
the Department waited so long to start these projects and why 
some of them will take so many years to complete, but without a 
doubt, the goals are worthy. I expect our witnesses to stay the 
course and deliver these systems on schedule and on budget, 
which is another big problem that we have had with many of the 
IT programs.
    Our veterans would have been much better served if the VA 
had not abandoned the medical appointment scheduling system, 
MASS in 2019. This project had implemented Epic's scheduling 
system and patient portal in Columbus, Ohio, and they were 
working well. The VA leaders at the time made a special effort 
to eliminate it, paving the way for Cerner, a name that we have 
had come up in this committee many, many times, not under good 
circumstances, to duplicate the work and install an inferior 
system. This was a disastrous decision that we are all still 
paying for.
    I also expect our witnesses to explain how they are going 
to fully implement the External Provider Scheduling (EPS) 
system, which includes the software of a company called 
WellHive. WellHive enables direct scheduling, which means VA 
schedulers no longer have to play phone tag for hours to hunt 
down open appointments with community care providers. Instead, 
they can see each participating community care provider's 
scheduling availability in real time on one screen. They can 
schedule the veteran's desired appointment with one call. 
WellHive's software has proven successful in the medical 
centers that have been permitted to use it. According to VA's 
own statistics, it has accelerated the overall community care 
referral and scheduling process from 26.6 to 17 days. The 
status quo phone tag method takes days or weeks and many phone 
calls before a veteran can get scheduled. I know many veterans 
who are watching this can certainly relate to this problem.
    According to the VA's website, WellHive enables staff to 
schedule appointments in under 6 minutes. The medical center 
employees have given it rave reviews during the committee 
staff's oversight visits. It seems to be working, yet we 
continue to see VA make confusing decisions that hold the 
project back. Early on, there were caps on how many schedulers 
at each medical center could use WellHive. More recently, the 
company has complained that its efforts to sign up new 
healthcare providers are restricted. Now VA tells us that 
WellHive's system will be turned off in four medical centers 
where it was already implemented, and the planned rollout in 
Fiscal Year 2025 will be dramatically scaled back.
    I am well aware of the VHA budget shortfall. I think the 
House made the right decision yesterday to get a complete 
explanation of the shortfall rather than to hand over a $12 
billion supplemental appropriation right away. I have no doubt 
that Congress will get to the bottom of the situation and 
prevent any veterans' care from being disrupted. That being 
said, it would be incredibly short sighted to cause lasting 
damage to this project with budget cuts that will quickly 
disappear everywhere else. I have serious concerns that the 
current leaders of the Department of Veterans Affairs might be 
intentionally undermining this project and making veterans' 
health care slower and more difficult out of political 
hostility to community care. I hope that is not the case.
    Today we are going to dig into these decisions and the 
thinking behind them because veterans' appointment scheduling 
is too important, and the status quo is too broken to let any 
of the projects we are discussing today slip into failure or 
neglect. With that, I will yield time to Ranking Member Sheila 
Cherfilus-McCormick for her opening statement.

OPENING STATEMENT OF SHEILA CHERFILUS-MCCORMICK, RANKING MEMBER

    Ms. Cherfilus-McCormick. Thank you so much, Mr. Chairman, 
and thank you so much to our witnesses for being here today. 
This subcommittee has spent a lot of time discussing VA's 
transition to its new Oracle Electronic Health Record (EHR). 
Lost in the conversation has been the Veterans Health 
Administration's critical need for a new appointment scheduling 
solution. Appointment scheduling is the foundation of veteran 
access to care, the current process and the system that support 
it. Weeks or months to the time that the veterans wait for 
their critical medical appointments. This should not be the 
case. Instead, we should be creating solutions that provide 
better visibility to care. Whether it is sought at VA or in the 
community, veterans deserve as much.
    For more than 20 years, VA has attempted to modernize or 
replace its scheduling IT system. It has been decades of 
modernization efforts with little to no success. In fact, most 
of the efforts have been abandoned. In just the last 10 years, 
we have seen four partial efforts to create this functionality 
for veterans, all of which have suffered from the same feeling 
as most of VA's IT modernization struggles--poor requirements 
development. In 2014, VA updated Veterans Health Information 
Systems and Technology Architecture (VISTA) legacy by 
developing a graphical user interface, or GUI, and automated 
some of the scheduling rules. The project, dubbed VistA 
scheduling enhancement (VSE) for VSA, did not address data 
quality issues and did not bring VA much closer to the then 
current state of healthcare information systems, effectively 
putting lipstick on a pig.
    In 2015, VA has changed directions and contracted for 624 
million to implement a commercial off the shelf or COTS 
scheduling system the medical appointment scheduling system 
MASS, which has later downgraded to a pilot. By all reports, 
including VA's own assessment, that pilot was a huge success. 
VA found increasing scheduling system efficiencies, improved 
timely access to services for veterans, increased productivity, 
and a substantial decrease in overtime. However, 8 months after 
the implementation of MASS and the signing of a contract with 
Cerner, now Oracle Health, VA halted the pilot.
    In 2019, VA shifted again, announcing plans to implement 
the scheduling solution that it had purchased as part of the 
Cerner contract, known as the centralized scheduling solution, 
or CSS, but on a separate and accelerated deployment schedule 
from the rest of the electronic health record. The plan at the 
time was to have the Cerner application deployed by 2023. This 
plan, similar to VSE and MASS, was also abandoned. Instead, VA 
has spent the past 5 years developing its own software. The 
integrated scheduling solution, or ISS, a system that is 
currently being scheduled, will now take as long or even longer 
than planned CSS timelines and is being developed and deployed 
only to eventually be replaced by CSS anyway.
    I still do not understand the logic behind this. It seems 
like a waste of time, energy, taxpayer money to be spent 5 
years developing something that would presumably be replaced in 
the next 10 years, especially when called systems have already 
been tested and integrated at VA, with some success. Further, 
despite these efforts, the ISS is still unable to compare 
direct care schedules to availability in the community, 
something it desperately needs as community care referrals 
continue to rise. The exploiting community care cost is having 
dire impacts on VA's budget, especially as community care is 
more expensive than VA direct care. If we do not find a way to 
balance it, there may not be a VA for future generations of 
veterans. While community care is valuable resource for 
ensuring that veterans have access to the care they need, VA 
lacks the ability to prove that veterans could be seen faster 
in community care than they can at VA.
    In fact, in a broader swath in the country, VA's access is 
better than that of the community. Central to the oversight of 
this committee provides is ensuring that veterans, whether they 
are seen as VA or in the community, have access to health care 
that is both timely and high quality. Without visibility into 
the community, we are not able to make these quality assurances 
for veterans as they deserve. I urge VA to implement a solution 
that allows for apples-to-apples comparisons between VA care 
and community care. Veterans should be able to make decisions 
about their healthcare with the full breadth of information 
available. Thank you to our witnesses and I yield back.
    Mr. Rosendale. Thank you very much, Ranking Member Sheila 
Cherfilus-McCormick. I will now introduce the witnesses on our 
first and only panel.
    First, from the Department of Veterans Affairs, we have Ms. 
Cherri Waters, Executive Director for the health portfolio in 
the Office of Information and Technology (OIT). Welcome back, 
Ms. Waters. From the Veterans Health Administration, we have 
Ms. Hillary Peabody, the Acting Assistant Under Secretary for 
Health for Integrated Veteran Care (IVC). Finally, we have Dr. 
Mark Hausman, the Executive Director for the Access 
Transformation in the Office of Integrated Veteran Care. If you 
all could please rise and raise your right hands.
    Do you solemnly swear, under penalty of perjury, that the 
testimony you are about to provide is the truth, the whole 
truth and nothing but the truth? Thank you very much and let 
the record reflect that all witnesses have answered in the 
affirmative.
    [Witnesses sworn.]
    Mr. Rosendale. Ms. Waters, you are now recognized for 5 
minutes to deliver the opening statement on behalf of the VA.

                   STATEMENT OF CHERRI WATERS

    Ms. Waters. Good morning. Chairman Rosendale, Ranking 
Member Cherfilus-McCormick and distinguished members of the 
subcommittee thank you for the opportunity to testify on the 
Office of Information and Technology and Veteran Health 
Administration's efforts to modernize the Department of 
Veterans Affairs scheduling systems. I am accompanied by my 
colleagues from VHA, Ms. Hillary Peabody, Acting Assistant 
Under Secretary for Integrated Veteran Care, and Dr. Mark 
Hausman, Executive Director for Access Transformation, IVC. I 
am honored to highlight the collaborative efforts that are 
transforming the future of veteran care.
    VA's enterprise scheduling modernization effort, a joint 
endeavor between VHA and OIT, is a testament to our commitment 
to streamline and enhance VA scheduling systems. To provide the 
best outcomes for veterans, VA must invest in modern scheduling 
tools that offer near term benefits and ultimately facilitate a 
long-term scheduling solution. The introduction of new 
functionalities through VA's modernization efforts is a 
significant step toward improving access to care for veterans. 
The ability to schedule both virtual and in person 
appointments, consolidate scheduling functions, and implement 
provider-based scheduling is pivotal in aligning VA scheduling 
systems with industry standards. These enhancements are 
designed to provide greater flexibility and efficiency in 
scheduling appointments, ultimately connecting veterans with 
the best available resources for their needs.
    One of the key tools driving this effort is the Integrated 
Scheduling Solution, ISS, which represents a significant 
improvement from our legacy system VistA scheduling enhancement 
graphical user interface, or VSE GUI. ISS streamlines the 
scheduling process, offering a more integrated and intuitive 
platform for VA staff to schedule various appointment types 
across multiple sites of care. Transitioning users from VSE GUI 
to ISS is in progress and is expected to be fully completed by 
February 2025, representing a significant milestone in our 
journey toward a more cohesive scheduling system. We have 
already received significant staff praise during the initial 
testing and implementation. The Clinic Capacity Search Tool, 
CCST, and the Clinic Configuration Manager, CCM, are enhancing 
the scheduling experience for veterans by providing quicker 
access to care, reducing discrepancies and increasing 
efficiency.
    CCST currently allows VA staff to quickly search and view 
telehealth appointments across multiple facilities. Starting in 
January 2025, we will begin rolling out enhancements to CCST 
that will enable staff to view appointments for both telehealth 
and in person visits. Furthermore, we are working on 
enhancements to CCM for managing the provider's appointment 
availability. These enhancements will enable the implementation 
of provider-based scheduling across VA, providing a unified 
view of provider availability and significantly streamlining 
the scheduling process. In support of community care, the 
External Provider Scheduling platform simplifies the process of 
connecting veterans with community care providers. EPS enables 
VA staff to directly schedule community care appointments 
electronically, enhancing coordination and ensuring timely 
access to care.
    As we look toward the future, our focus remains on 
improving timeliness, ensuring veterans receive the best 
available resources, and enhancing coordination between VA and 
community care providers. These efforts will ultimately 
converge under the ISS platform, which will integrate multiple 
scheduling tools into a single, streamlined experience across 
the enterprise. This will provide veterans with faster access 
to care, whether through VA facilities or community providers, 
while simultaneously reducing the administrative burden on VA 
staff.
    Chairman Rosendale, Ranking Member Sheila Cherfilus-
McCormick, and members of the subcommittee, thank you for the 
opportunity to appear today. We are proud of the progress we 
have made and remain committed to continuing this journey of 
improvement for the benefit of our veterans and the dedicated 
staff who serve them. This concludes my testimony, and I look 
forward to answering your questions.

    [The Prepared Statement Of Cherri Waters Appears In The 
Appendix]

    Mr. Rosendale. Thank you, Ms. Waters the written statement 
of Ms. Waters will be entered into the hearing record. We are 
now going to proceed to questioning and I will recognize myself 
for 5 minutes. Ms. Waters, how is the clinical capacity search 
tool going to make the appointment scheduling process easier 
and better?
    Ms. Waters. Thank you for that question, Chairman. The 
clinical capacity search tool will allow a staff scheduler to 
be able to see available appointments across multiple sites in 
a single unified view. Currently, this is available to see all 
telehealth appointments. As I mentioned in my opening 
testimony, in January 2025, we are rolling out the next 
enhancement to CCST, which will allow you to see schedules 
across multiple sites.
    Mr. Rosendale. What are CCST's capabilities today, and when 
do you expect the system to be fully functional? Fully 
functional is a term that I have been using since the day I 
arrived in Washington, and we have not had it, experienced it 
anywhere in anything. That is the big part of this.
    Ms. Waters. I appreciate the question. It is very difficult 
when we talk about IT tools to talk about what is fully 
functional. One of the things that we do is we look----
    Mr. Rosendale. Where all of the features that are being 
promised by the vendor are fully functional. They are working, 
they are available, they are ready.
    Ms. Waters. As I mentioned, the current state of CCST 
allows you to see available telehealth appointments across the 
enterprise. In January 2025, we are rolling out the next 
enhancement, which will allow us to see available in person 
appointments in that same unified view.
    Mr. Rosendale. Will all the features then be functioning?
    Ms. Waters. Again with IT systems it is always our hope 
that we are continuously making incremental improvements, and 
we will be working with our partners in IVC.
    Mr. Rosendale. I will take that as a no. All of the 
features will not be fully functional in January 2025?
    Ms. Waters. All of the features that we have defined today 
will be available in January 2025. That is correct. We are 
always looking for opportunities to enhance and improve things.
    Mr. Rosendale. You just began rolling out the integrated 
scheduling solution this month. Will it improve the scheduling 
process and what are its initial capabilities?
    Ms. Waters. Yes, so ISS is going to vastly improve the 
ability to schedule appointments. ISS is initially designed as 
a replacement for VSE GUI, but we are already seeing incredible 
improvements with this tool. Examples of this include the fact 
that it is designed to be in a web browser, so it is got a much 
more modern user interface. It is not dependent on a desktop 
application, so it runs faster for the scheduler to be able to 
utilize, and it allows them to then move from one VistA system 
into another VistA system to schedule appointments without re-
authenticating. It makes that experience much better for the 
user. The redesign of the system also makes it much easier for 
us to do enhancements to the system because it is no longer 
dependent on a desktop application that will sit on 600,000 
desktops. We are not beholden to that as we want to do 
incremental enhancements and do improvements to the project.
    Mr. Rosendale. What will its full capabilities look like 
and when will those be implemented throughout VHA?
    Ms. Waters. Again, with IT systems, we are hoping to always 
build requirements and do enhancements to it. Right now, on our 
roadmap for ISS, not only do we have the ability to schedule 
across multiple facilities, we will be working to integrate the 
view from the CCST tool and to work on the ability to schedule 
external provider appointments or through EPS through the ISS 
platform.
    Mr. Rosendale. When do you expect all of this to be 
implemented throughout VHA?
    Ms. Waters. I do not have that date at this point. We are 
still working on the requirements that we need to refine that 
date, but I am happy to come back and brief you on that.
    Mr. Rosendale. Thank you. Thank you very much. Ms. Waters, 
why are these two systems, CCST and ISS, being developed 
separately, and what will it entail to eventually combine them?
    Ms. Waters. They are being developed separately at this 
point, it allowed us to do a much more rapid glide path to 
build those tools out. They use the same back-end 
infrastructure and architecture and refer back to the back end 
EAS system. It was simply for ease of convenience and the 
ability to rapidly deploy them that we did them separately with 
the full intention to combine them in the future.
    Mr. Rosendale. Okay, thank you very much. I will yield 
back. I now recognize Ranking Member Sheila Cherfilus-McCormick 
for 5 minutes of questioning.
    Ms. Cherfilus-McCormick. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Ms. 
Peabody. At this subcommittee's last hearing on VA's patient 
scheduling IT system, the witnesses discussed VA's plan to 
separate CSS from the rest of the Cerner suite of applications 
and deploying in ahead of the rest of the EHR. That plan was 
abandoned during the pandemic, and I am still unclear as to 
why. What is the VA's logic for choosing to develop another 
homegrown solution versus deploying the tool that the 
department had already purchased?
    Ms. Peabody. Thank you for that question, Ranking Member. I 
am actually going to hand that one to Dr. Hausman.
    Dr. Hausman. Thank you, Ranking Member. Yes, in Columbus, 
the central scheduling solution, or Cerner based scheduling 
solution, was implemented in August 2020, and following that 
implementation an evaluation was performed. Ultimately, the 
decision based on the evaluation was that while this can work 
layered on a VistA electronic health record, the cost and the 
disruption to clinical operations outweighed the value gained 
by moving forward with this strategy. Specifically, in order to 
implement the scheduling solution thousands of clinics had to 
be rebuilt and reconfigured in a way that is compatible with 
Cerner, which puts capacity limitations and access limitations 
on the medical center for weeks to months to get this done.
    One other point is there is an incremental cost with 
licensing with this, so there would be additional expense to 
license the scheduling product across the enterprise. In 
summary, the thought was instead of having two disruptive 
events implementing scheduling, Cerner scheduling, and then 
later implementing the Cerner EHR, it made more sense to 
implement both at the same time.
    Ms. Cherfilus-McCormick. Are you not doing the clinic 
rebuild for ISS?
    Dr. Hausman. We are not. ISS is currently, as of this 
month, being deployed in its initial phases, and that 
deployment is going to run over the next 5 months. We are able 
to seamlessly integrate this version of ISS with all existing 
VistA clinics.
    Ms. Cherfilus-McCormick. What would the cost difference be 
between the, what would the cost difference have been before 
been for VA to deploy CSS versus the development of ISS?
    Dr. Hausman. I do not have those figures. That is something 
we can take back and get you an answer.
    Ms. Cherfilus-McCormick. What was the decision-making 
process for this strategy and who ultimately made that 
decision?
    Dr. Hausman. I think that is another question we will need 
to take back to get you the right answer.
    Ms. Cherfilus-McCormick. Ms. Waters, VA has a long history 
of IT. Modernization efforts suffering from the lack of 
effective project management and requirements development does 
not meet the VA's needs. How does the planning for a Cerner 
scheduling solution deployment differ from what has been going 
on in the past?
    Ms. Waters. I am not sure, and let me please clarify. Are 
you speaking to the Cerner scheduling deployment or the 
integrated ISS scheduling deployment?
    Ms. Cherfilus-McCormick. ISS.
    Ms. Waters. Thank you for that clarification and thank you 
for the question. One of the things that we are trying to do 
with ISS is adopt an incremental approach. That is again, goes 
back to that answer of fully deployed versus deploying a tool 
and then making enhancements to it. We firmly believe that when 
we do an incremental approach the way that we are doing, you 
will see a quicker rollout and adoption across the enterprise 
that then allows us to move the organization with each 
enhancement that we deploy.
    Ms. Cherfilus-McCormick. How does the VA plan to avoid or 
mitigate the risk of outcomes similar to the past failed IT 
projects?
    Ms. Waters. What I can say is that we are working very 
diligently in a collaborative effort in IT with VHA to work 
together. With any one of these implementations, it really 
requires movement in both people, process and technology. If 
you only move one of those things, you are likely to suffer 
failures.
    Ms. Cherfilus-McCormick. There is no plan? My time is 
running out, so there is no plan?
    Ms. Waters. I guess I am not sure that I understand your 
question.
    Ms. Cherfilus-McCormick. You do not have a plan to avoid 
and mitigate the past failures?
    Ms. Waters. Our plan to mitigate the past failures is to 
ensure that we are working in a collaborative format, doing 
incremental improvements so that we can ensure success at every 
step along the way. I think we are demonstrating that with our 
current rollouts.
    Ms. Cherfilus-McCormick. You have made an assessment of all 
the failures and now have committed to avoiding that?
    Ms. Waters. I cannot speak for what happened before me, so 
I cannot say that we have done an assessment of all the 
failures. Certainly, we do have an understanding of why we have 
stepped away from other solutions.
    Ms. Cherfilus-McCormick. Thank you. I yield back.
    Mr. Rosendale. Thank you very much. Ms. Waters, we just 
touched on, and Dr. Hausman just touched on, the MASS medical 
appointment scheduling system Ranking Member was asking about. 
I do want to make sure that we get the information on the 
record about what the thought process was and who was 
responsible for the decision to end that system. That is very 
important. We will be looking for that information to come back 
to us. Dr. Hausman, could you briefly describe the steps the VA 
schedulers go through to schedule veterans' community care 
appointments without WellHive?
    Dr. Hausman. Yes, Mr. Chairman. It starts with a referral 
or a request for care, and from there we have referral 
coordination teams that evaluate that request to determine if a 
veteran is community care eligible based on access standards. 
Once eligibility is determined, a veteran is offered community 
care, the best community care option we can find, as well as 
the best VA option that we have. If a veteran opts into 
community care, then we begin the process of collecting 
preferences. Where geographically would you like to see your 
provider? What days and times tend to work best for you? Those 
types of things.
    From that point, we begin the process of telephoning. We 
need to reach community provider offices to determine if they 
have available appointments, when those appointments are 
available. We, of course, target that search based on the 
preferences the veteran gives us. That really can be one of the 
areas for delay in getting veterans appointed to the community 
is the need to have synchronous communication through a 
telephone, and that could take some time.
    Mr. Rosendale. If anybody was trying to create a flowchart 
just now on that process, it did not really look good. Okay. 
From my standpoint, because there is a long, long path before 
the veteran actually gets that care. Okay. Where we need to get 
a more direct path, if you will. How long does this process 
take with and without WellHive?
    Dr. Hausman. This last quarter, quarter three of this 
current fiscal year, we are scheduling veterans from the moment 
in time care is requested to when they are first appointed in 
the community in just over 21 days. If you look at a head-to-
head comparison of scheduling veterans to like care using our 
traditional process versus WellHive, it is about a 26 day with 
a traditional process versus 17 days with WellHive. That is the 
difference. Substantial time savings and improvement in 
timeliness with using the EPS solution.
    Mr. Rosendale. Okay. On average, how many community care 
appointments are VA staff able to schedule per day using 
WellHive versus the current system?
    Dr. Hausman. Using the WellHive software, a trained, season 
scheduler can schedule upwards of 20, maybe 25 appointments per 
day.
    Mr. Rosendale. Without?
    Dr. Hausman. About eight appointments.
    Mr. Rosendale. About eight. Okay, what are the VA 
schedulers saying about WellHive, either in surveys or 
anecdotally? What kind feedback are you getting?
    Dr. Hausman. You know, the feedback for those that have 
used the system, which is now numbers in the hundreds, has been 
uniformly positive. I think the greatest challenge is having 
appointments available in this system. In other words----
    Mr. Rosendale. If slots open, availability.
    Dr. Hausman. In the right specialties for the right type of 
care. That is correct.
    Mr. Rosendale. Okay. Okay. Please explain what File Entry 
Date (FED) to first appointment means.
    Dr. Hausman. File entry date is the moment in time when 
care is requested by a veteran, or in the event of a primary 
care provider and a veteran generating a referral for specialty 
care. It is that moment in time that referral is generated. 
That is file entry date. First appointment is the moment in 
time when the appointment for that care is scheduled.
    Mr. Rosendale. Okay. One of the things that I have seen in 
the past is that the first appointment date sometimes gets 
skewed because it gets canceled, and then the initial 
appointment for the veteran gets transferred out and 
transferred out, sometimes several times, so that their true 
first appointment may not be for many months after that. I 
would really like to see if there is some way that we can get 
more of an accurate reflection of those times as well.
    Not just the first appointment date, when it is set, but 
when it is actually experienced, if you will. Okay. When it 
takes place, so that we can see the true timeframe between when 
they contact and when they are getting that. That initial care 
for healthcare. Okay, I am close enough. I will go ahead and 
yield time to the Ranking Member.
    Ms. Cherfilus-McCormick. Thank you. Ms. Waters. I cannot 
help but recall your response of not knowing what happened 
before you were there. It just makes me feel like if we do not 
understand the mistakes we did in the past, then we are capable 
of repeating it. The committee really wants to make sure that 
implementation going forward is not repeating the mistakes of 
the past. You know, hopefully we can get back and you guys can 
actually take a real good assessment of that, and we can make 
sure that we are not repeating that.
    My next question is also for Ms. Peabody. What is the OIT's 
role in the ISS role in the ISS project?
    Ms. Peabody. Thank you for that question. I will start and 
then I will ask Dr. Hausman to add on, because really, it is 
his team and Ms. Waters teams that have been working in the 
trenches together on this. OIT has been a really valuable 
partner for us in VHA. Dr. Hausman's worked very closely in 
partnership with our colleagues in OIT to actually stand up a 
very unique governance structure where we have a working group 
that includes our OIT counterparts and key VHA stakeholders, 
and they are working hand in hand to develop that scheduling 
roadmap.
    OIT's role, coming back to your question, is really to take 
the business requirements that VHA puts forward and help us 
design the solution and then be able to fund that. Anything to 
add, Dr. Hausman?
    Dr. Hausman. Thanks, Ms. Peabody. That is correct. A strong 
partnership between VHA and OIT on this project is critical. I 
believe we have a strong partnership in place. We set the 
requirements, we set the priorities. We do the testing of the 
initial versions of the product, the user acceptance testing. 
We also do the training, deployment, change management. OIT 
takes our requirements and our prioritizations and develops 
these products or enhances the products. Also, those 
prioritizations and requirements inform the roadmap for the 
timing for some of these bigger milestones that we are working 
toward.
    Ms. Cherfilus-McCormick. Is OIT's is role prominent enough 
to support solid project management and to help prevent. Oh, 
Ms. Waters, is OIT's role prominent enough to support solid 
project management and to help prevent previous mistakes?
    Ms. Waters. Thank you for that question. Please also let me 
clarify that my answer when I reflected that I personally was 
not aware of some of those challenges and decisions that were 
made in the past, rest assured that there are strong teams 
behind me in OIT that are very aware of them and are taking 
them into account. I probably misspoke when I said I was not 
aware of them.
    Let me also share that on this initiative, it is critical 
that we have strong PM's available and working with the team, 
and we have teams that are working day in and day out with Dr. 
Hausman and his team that are dedicated to making this effort a 
success.
    Ms. Cherfilus-McCormick. How is the requirements 
development for this project different from VA's previous 
struggles to modernize patient scheduling applications?
    Ms. Waters. Again, with this adoption that we are doing, we 
are doing it in a collaborative, shoulder to shoulder format, 
day in and day out, working with our partners to ensure that we 
are doing it together.
    Ms. Cherfilus-McCormick. Wonderful. Ms. Waters, you are 
leading your teams, correct?
    Ms. Waters. That is correct.
    Ms. Cherfilus-McCormick. As a leader of your teams, do you 
feel like you should be aware and do that analysis for your own 
knowledge to lead your team?
    Ms. Waters. Yes, of course. I also trust my teams and the 
leaders that I have on my teams.
    Ms. Cherfilus-McCormick. Thank you, Ms. Peabody. I 
understand that VA is rethinking a strategy for the external 
provider scheduling project that you are looking at, pairing 
back the number of sites using the EPS tool. What is the VA's 
goal in this reformatting effort?
    Ms. Peabody. Thank you for that question. Our goal is 
really to take the lessons that we have learned from the first 
two phases of the rollout this year and refocus our strategy to 
secure more success. One of the biggest challenges that we have 
had in rolling this out is getting enough providers enrolled on 
the platform so that the scheduler, when they log into the EPS 
system, they can actually find a provider and they are not 
having to then revert back to the standard processes of looking 
for a provider elsewhere.
    Ms. Cherfilus-McCormick. How many facilities are using EPS?
    Ms. Peabody. I will tag that to Dr. Hausman.
    Dr. Hausman. 16 facilities are currently live on EPS.
    Ms. Cherfilus-McCormick. All right, thank you. I yield 
back.
    Mr. Rosendale. Thank you, Dr. Hausman. I want to go back to 
the file entry date, first appointment issue again. With all of 
this advances in technology and improvements that we are 
making, is it true that the goal was recently changed from 
seven to 14 days to actually extend it out?
    Dr. Hausman. For community care appointments? I know there 
was discussion on changing that goal. I am not sure if that 
decision has yet been made.
    Mr. Rosendale. If we are having improvements, Ms. Waters, 
and things are flowing better and we are making all these 
investments in the technology, that just seems counterintuitive 
to me that if it is working well, if we are making 
improvements, that we would be setting the goal out longer, 
doubling it, literally doubling it from seven to 14 days. Have 
you seen that information? Are you telling me that you have not 
seen and participated in discussions in that regard?
    Dr. Hausman. I will defer to Ms. Peabody to answer that, 
sir.
    Ms. Peabody. Thank you for that question. I want to clarify 
that these metrics, when we are talking about FED to first 
scheduled, that is what we call internal schedule timeliness. 
It is very different from wait times. Now, both of those 
measures are important for us to track and monitor within VHA, 
and we set goals around that schedule timeliness because that 
is really our measure for our schedulers within VHA to be able 
to do the piece of this that is their responsibility.
    We have been exploring changing what are those goals. We 
had some very strong feedback and a report from the U.S. 
Government Accountability Office (GAO) several years ago, and 
we have had an open recommendation to relook at that schedule 
timeliness metric and to reconsider it to something that is 
more realistic for our facilities. We have undertaken through 
our access committee, a look at different options for that we 
have recently just brought up through the VHA governance 
structure.
    Mr. Rosendale. Okay, so Ms. Peabody, you have seen this 
recommendation then, or consideration from the seven to 14 
days?
    Ms. Peabody. Yes.
    Mr. Rosendale. Okay. Again, counterintuitive to everybody 
that is sitting in this room. If we are making improvements, if 
we are making investments and everybody is telling us that we 
are making these strides toward a smoother system, why would we 
not be taking the goal and pushing it the other direction? This 
just does not make sense to me that we are talking about 
extending it, doubling it from seven to 14 days.
    Ms. Peabody. Thank you for that question. I would add there 
are some nuances and we can take it back for the record to get 
you the specifics of what we are looking at changing in that 
metric.
    Mr. Rosendale. Why has it changed? Whether it is Dr. 
Hausman or Ms. Peabody, why would they change this number 
again, if we are making improvements?
    Ms. Peabody. We have looked at different options for 
changing that measure in several different ways to measure 
that. What is most important is that for any urgent consults, 
our measure continues to be that those need to be scheduled 
within 2 days. I looked at that measure this morning, and we 
are sitting at 100 percent of those. For those non urgent 
consults, we do want to allow our schedulers enough time to be 
able to make contact with the community provider and with the 
veteran to schedule that. We have----
    Mr. Rosendale. Okay, working on my time here. I just do not 
understand. Okay. As a person who has always had his 
compensation based on performance, how in the world you can 
never expect better performance if you set the goal lower. That 
just is, again, it is counterintuitive. If you take the goal 
and you make it lower, that matrix. You are never going to 
improve the situation. If you set goals that are less than what 
you have now, standards that are lower than you have now, how 
are you ever going to make an improvement? It just does not 
work. You have a section touting external provider scheduling, 
aka WellHive, on your community care network page, on your 
information website for providers. Does the department endorse 
this system and encourage community care providers to sign up 
and use it?
    Ms. Peabody. We do encourage community care providers to 
sign up for our external provider scheduling platform.
    Mr. Rosendale. Okay, what is the process to solicit and 
recruit providers into external provider scheduling, Ms. 
Peabody?
    Ms. Peabody. If I could, I would like to hand that to Dr. 
Hausman.
    Dr. Hausman. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The process begins 
with selecting from our community care provider network of 1.3 
million the highest potential providers with whom to engage, 
and engaging with them to explain the program, explain the 
value of the program, the importance of this program, the 
vision. Then from there discuss, make sure we get with the 
right decision-makers and discuss the process. How does a 
community provider system participate in this? We get into the 
technical requirements and then from there, if we have an 
agreement, we do the process of onboarding, which actually is 
the technical integration of their schedules into our WellHive 
user interface.
    Mr. Rosendale. My time is expired. Ranking Member, I yield 
5 minutes for questions.
    Ms. Cherfilus-McCormick. Thank you Mr. Chairman. Ms. 
Peabody, what do you believe is limiting provider enrollment in 
EPA in EPS?
    Ms. Peabody. The thank you for that question, as Dr. 
Hausman was just articulating, the longer piece of the 
onboarding is actually that technical integration, and there is 
a fair bit of work on the provider. The provider has to have 
the ability to actually know their appointment availability and 
to be able to pass that into our system and be able to do that 
technical integration with our team that can be very lengthy 
and a significant investment of time for them.
    At this time, we have not put in place any types of 
incentives or run this through our community care network 
contract. We have done a significant amount of market research 
actually through our CCN next generation contract recompete 
efforts to gather some market research on how do we actually 
incentivize providers to do that. We have received a good 
amount of feedback on what that would look like. As we look 
further on down the road, how we will make this successful, we 
know that we are going to have to have some sort of carrot, if 
you will, for providers.
    Ms. Cherfilus-McCormick. Also, when we took a look at it, 
South Carolina was successful, whereas Orlando really 
struggled. One of the different factors we saw was that the 
staff and the providers were more involved, and so really 
supporting the system made a huge difference. We did not see 
that in Orlando. Is the VHA properly supporting their 
enrollment efforts?
    Ms. Peabody. Yes, we have made this a priority, and in 
fact, this has been an initiative that myself and Dr. Hausman 
have briefed several times to our governance board, which is 
VHA's highest governing body. We have got full support behind 
this. It is just important that we really step back and take 
some of those lessons we have learned over the last several 
months and pivot a little bit in that approach, because we need 
to do that to make it successful.
    Ms. Cherfilus-McCormick. The lessons that you learned from 
doing the analysis of these two sites, that has not been done 
yet, the analysis?
    Ms. Peabody. Yes, that has been done, and our refocused 
strategy is a direct result of that analysis.
    Ms. Cherfilus-McCormick. Can you tell us some of the pieces 
that you are plugging in to make sure that they are actually, 
that other clinics do not have this kind of struggle?
    Ms. Peabody. I will start and then I will ask Dr. Hausman 
to help fill in any gaps here since he has been leading this 
effort. The biggest thing that we have learned is that when we 
try to do this big bang approach across the entire system, it 
is a pretty significant level of effort for us to do that 
provider outreach and start integrating each of those 
providers. When we initially took this approach of let us just 
do it everywhere at the same time, we found that we got several 
providers here and there, and it was sort of a smattering. When 
the scheduler logs into the system, if there is only a handful 
or a few handfuls of providers, they are having to go back and 
forth between systems, and it is impacting the trust that they 
have in the data that is in that system. We feel taking that 
focused approach so that we can really, really do it well at a 
few sites and then be able to expand from there, that is going 
to be more successful.
    Ms. Cherfilus-McCormick. Thank you. Also, is VA planning on 
pulling the tools from any facilities?
    Ms. Peabody. Yes.
    Ms. Cherfilus-McCormick. What is the long-term plan for 
EPS?
    Ms. Peabody. Dr. Hausman, do you want to address that?
    Dr. Hausman. Yes, I am happy to. Thank you. We do see EPS 
as the enterprise solution for community care scheduling. At 
the end of the 2025 fiscal year, we intend to have EPS live in 
approximately one third of our VA medical centers. That is 
about 50 sites across the enterprise in focused regions. We 
anticipate being successful. What I mean by that is attracting 
and enlisting the participation of a large number of larger, 
higher volume community care providers into this program over 
the next year and then booking more appointments through EPS. 
Specifically, we are looking at least a tenfold increase in 
provider participation as well as appointments booked compared 
to what we are looking at this year. That is how we define 
success for next year. Now beyond 2025, we intend to continue 
to roll this out across the enterprise to the other medical 
centers and other Veterans Integrated Service Networks (VISN) 
that are not part of the 25 plan.
    Ms. Cherfilus-McCormick. Thank you. I yield back.
    Mr. Rosendale. Thank you very much. Ms. Peabody, what is 
the process to solicit and recruit providers into the external 
provider scheduling?
    Ms. Peabody. Thank you for that question, Chairman. We have 
both a team within Dr. Hausman's team as well as a vendor that 
we have been using to support some of those onboarding efforts. 
We take several steps in this process. One, our team has been 
traveling to conferences, doing webinars, posting in our 
newsletters just to get the word out. Then the provider that is 
interested can reach out to us and our team will start that 
process of onboarding and walk them through that.
    Mr. Rosendale. When you were talking earlier about focusing 
your attention instead of trying to do just what I will call a 
shotgun approach and cover the whole country focusing in, and 
we are going to use a rifle and a scope and we are going to 
zero in on some areas and concentrate the effort to try and get 
those providers. That is starting to make a little bit of sense 
to me. Is that why there is such a discrepancy in the number of 
participating providers in WellHive, in, say, South Carolina, 
which has numerous, and Montana, which has a couple of dozen.
    Ms. Peabody. Thank you for that question. Yes, I would 
agree with that assessment. I think in some areas, if we are 
able to get the affiliate or one or two of the large hospital 
systems, this works really well in more urban areas where you 
have one hospital system, you can bring that whole system in. 
It has been really successful. In areas like Montana, it is a 
little more sparse.
    Mr. Rosendale. It is rural. That is exactly right. What is 
the thought process or how are you identifying where to focus 
those resources, okay. To go in and recruit and get these 
providers listed? You know, what does that list look like and 
what is the criteria that you are using?
    Ms. Peabody. Yes, so I will start and Dr. Hausman will 
definitely help make sure I do not miss anything here. We 
started actually by sitting down with our CCN contractors and 
getting some feedback from them because it is their network of 
providers predominantly, and so they know which providers are 
most likely to be open to doing this. The team actually focused 
which VISNs and medical centers where, you know, we would go 
next around some of that feedback. We also gathered that just 
from our own experience. We have to consider just where is 
their appetite to do this. This is very leading edge kind of 
stuff. The private sector, you do not see a whole lot of this. 
We are starting to get there with more providers being willing 
to open up their clinic grids and do the work to integrate into 
some of these.
    Mr. Rosendale. I have to stop you. The one concern that I 
have is that what is the input from the actual patient? What is 
the input from the veterans themselves? If we start basing too 
much of our information on these large providers, forgive me 
for using the term, but there is a medical industrial complex 
out there. They will try to completely dominate the services. 
As a former commissioner of securities and insurance, I can 
tell you that every single study that has ever been put out 
shows that the bigger the organization is, the bigger the 
administration is, the bigger the corporation, the medical 
corporation is, that the lower the quality of care is and the 
higher the cost is. I need to hear something that says we are 
talking to those veterans, especially in the rural communities 
like Montana, that maybe are not going to have access to a 
large facility, that we have a team that understands this and 
is going to go out and recruit and sign up physicians that the 
veterans want to access.
    Ms. Peabody. Thank you for that question, Chairman. Yes, 
absolutely. In fact, our team did, I am sure you are very 
familiar with Veterans Signals (VSignals). That is how we get 
the most, a big portion of our feedback from veterans. We 
actually rolled out a VSignal specifically for EPS, and we got 
some really, really impressive results. We are continuing to 
get that feedback from veterans as well.
    Mr. Rosendale. Again, what would it look like to have a 
team if we are going to go out, and I understand we have the 
electronics and everything, but to actually have a team to go 
out and start trying to go around to these areas that not 
necessarily are urban, the very rural areas and start getting 
some, some providers to sign up.
    Ms. Peabody. Thank you for that question. We do have that 
in place today, and that is that separate vendor contract that 
is supporting us with going out and doing that onboarding. Then 
we are also looking at options perhaps in the future to be able 
to leverage our CCN contractors to help us with that.
    Mr. Rosendale. Okay, thank you. I yield back and recognize 
the Ranking Member.
    Ms. Cherfilus-McCormick. Thank you, Ms. Peabody. As I said 
in my opening, I am convinced that VA must address the lack of 
a fully integrated scheduling solution. We are extremely 
concerned by the exploding community care costs. I am 
particularly concerned that much of the cost may be 
unnecessary, but VA cannot prove that, as they cannot compare 
access in apples-to-apples manner. What is the VA's plan to 
address this shortcoming?
    Ms. Peabody. Thank you for that question. VA is committed 
to making sure that the care that our veterans are getting in 
the community is clinically appropriate and that they are 
getting that care at the right time and place. Since I stepped 
into this role as the Acting Assistant Under Secretary for 
Health for Integrated Veteran Care in February, I actually 
spent some time resetting what our mission statement is and 
what our three priorities are as an office. One of those three 
priorities is ensuring that when our veterans do go out to the 
community, that the care that they are getting is high value 
care. We would be happy to do a briefing on several of the 
initiatives that we are doing, but that includes making sure 
that we have a high performing provider network, and we are 
able to see where the providers that are in our network are 
actually highest performing and have the best quality measures 
and be able to give that information to our veterans. That also 
includes doing a more robust utilization management program in 
the future.
    Ms. Cherfilus-McCormick. Thank you. The vendor who supports 
the EPS, the project has this capability. It was part of the 
pilot program. Why did the VA choose to shut it down?
    Ms. Peabody. Thank you for that question. VHA has not 
chosen to shut down. In fact, based on the pilot, we did a, we 
gathered market research from industry to identify options for 
how we could procure a similar solution in the future and then 
moved forward with an acquisition plan to do that, which 
resulted in actually having the same vendor from that pilot.
    Ms. Cherfilus-McCormick. It seems to me that the VA is 
making short sighted decisions that are focusing veterans to 
continue waiting. Is there anything that you would recommend 
this committee do to help and support, make sure that there are 
not any feelings and that this is actually sufficient moving 
forward?
    Ms. Peabody. Thank you for that question. We appreciate 
your continued support for efforts like this one and for 
continuing to hold us accountable for ensuring that our 
veterans get the care that they have earned and deserve.
    Ms. Cherfilus-McCormick. Thank you. I yield back.
    Mr. Rosendale. Thank you very much. Ms. Peabody, I 
understand your office has decided to make cuts to the external 
provider scheduling. We are going to get into the reasoning in 
a moment, but I want to understand what the cuts actually 
entail first. Is it correct that the VA medical centers in West 
Haven, Connecticut, Hudson Valley, New York, and Ann Arbor and 
Iron Mountain, Michigan currently have WellHive activated and 
that it will be turned off?
    Ms. Peabody. Thank you for that question. I definitely want 
to ask Dr. Hausman to make sure I get this right.
    Dr. Hausman. That is correct.
    Mr. Rosendale. Okay. Dr. Hausman, I really do not 
understand this because when we were just talking about the 
final entry date to first appointment and the time that it is 
reducing, that it is making these improvements, why would this 
be being turned off?
    Dr. Hausman. We are active at 16 medical centers. We will 
continue to be active in 12 of those 16 medical centers moving 
into the next fiscal year, plus adding five additional entire 
VISNs into the mix. This was a decision made by our VHA 
governance board. I think the decision was around solving the 
issue of having acquired licenses this year that we simply 
cannot use because we do not have adequate number of community 
care providers yet participating in this program.
    The strategy that we are putting forward and we are going 
to be working toward next year will allow us to focus on key 
areas or markets that we think are highest potential for a lot 
of the considerations that Ms. Peabody already mentioned with 
this revised strategy, there are four medical centers, two in 
Michigan and the other two that you mentioned that will be 
paused for this next year.
    Mr. Rosendale. Dr. Hausman, Iron Mountain, Michigan has 
very few community care providers signed up, but Hudson Valley, 
New York already has hundreds. Why did you decide to turn off 
both of these facilities? What message does that send to 
providers that WellHive already has in New York and the 
providers you are hoping to recruit in Michigan?
    Dr. Hausman. Well, we hope the message will be that we 
believe in this program, and we are going to be back to 
building and activating this program in these areas very soon. 
In the instance of Hudson Valley, while we do have around 300, 
almost 300 providers that are on board, this was the first area 
that we built out, and we did not focus in the way that we 
should have in terms of engaging providers that do higher 
volume of care, more veteran care, higher quality care. We 
built this out in a way that we learned from. Strategically, we 
are going to be focusing on working with providers that do 
higher volume of care, that are known to do high quality care, 
and that also have a good relationship, that we have a good 
relationship with, for example, academic affiliates.
    Mr. Rosendale. Again, I just, to me, as a consumer, I hear 
somebody shutting down after they have opened up a system, a 
facility, whatever, and they are telling me how great it is, 
but yet they come in and say, but you are not going to have it 
available to you. We are going to go out and try and sell. I do 
not see how that is going to help efforts going forward to get 
other providers to sign up. I just do not.
    I think it is a very, very poor marketing concept. Are you 
concerned that when you decide to turn, WellHive on again in 
Connecticut, New York and Michigan, the providers will be 
frustrated and suspicious about working with VA?
    Dr. Hausman. We appreciate that those sentiments may exist 
as we go to reactivate. I do believe that the messaging that we 
put forward, the communications that we are going to be putting 
forward to these community partners now, is going to be very 
important in how we message this decision and why we are doing 
this, and also the idea that we will be coming back likely in 
the beginning of `26. There is definitely some communication 
that will be taking place that will hopefully keep the 
relationship with these providers strong and keep them 
interested in participating in the future.
    Mr. Rosendale. Even again, the future providers that you 
are trying to sign up, when they look and see that you are 
basically pulling the rug on the other providers, I cannot 
believe that it is going to give them a level of faith in 
participating. I mean, can you understand that?
    Dr. Hausman. I do understand that concern.
    Mr. Rosendale. How much is the cut to the external provider 
scheduling project? You told the committee staff that $20 
million during a meeting, is that correct?
    Dr. Hausman. That is approximately our budget for this 
program in `25.
    Mr. Rosendale. The system that seems to be working that is 
helping us schedule a better, that is providing better 
healthcare, is the place that we are going to have a $20 
million cut?
    Dr. Hausman. Approximately.
    Mr. Rosendale. Ms. Peabody, was this cut your decision? If 
you did not make that decision, who did?
    Ms. Peabody. Thank you for that question. Our VHA 
governance board made that decision unanimous to take on----
    Mr. Rosendale. Did you make it as a recommendation to them 
or did they come up with this, amongst their collaboration and 
their work?
    Ms. Peabody. That was IVC's recommendation. Yes.
    Mr. Rosendale. That was your recommendation?
    Ms. Peabody. Yes, sir, that was my recommendation based on 
the inputs from Dr. Hausman and his team.
    Mr. Rosendale. Okay. I will now yield 5 minutes. I think 
that that puts a pin on it. Then I am good. Okay. I would 
recognize the Ranking Member for any closing remarks that you 
may have. Do not have any. Okay. No closing remarks. Okay. I 
want to thank our witnesses for joining us today. VA scheduling 
process and technology directly affect veterans' healthcare. 
Obviously. Outdated, dysfunctional systems increase veterans 
wait times and may discourage them from getting care from the 
VA altogether.
    We have to remember that most veterans also have Medicare 
or private insurance. As the billboards say, the Department of 
Veterans Affairs want veterans to choose VA. That means getting 
an appointment has to be user friendly. This morning, we have 
heard about some real accomplishments in internal scheduling 
and direct scheduling that are improving veterans experiences.
    We also know that the VA has a troubling history of 
snatching defeat from the jaws of victory when it comes to 
technology projects. I urge the committee to continue rigorous 
oversight in the next Congress to prevent that from happening 
again. I ask unanimous consent that all members have five 
legislative days to revise and extend their remarks and include 
extraneous material. Without objection. So, ordered. This 
hearing is adjourned.
    [Whereupon, at 10:09 a.m., the subcommittee was adjourned.]   
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                         A  P  P  E  N  D  I  X

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                    Prepared Statements of Witnesses

                              ----------                              


                  Prepared Statement of Cherri Waters

    Good morning, Chairman Rosendale, Ranking Member Cherfilus-
McCormick, and distinguished Members of the Subcommittee. Thank you for 
the opportunity to testify on the Office of Information and 
Technology's (OIT) and Veterans Health Administration's (VHA) efforts 
to modernize the Department of Veterans Affairs' (VA's) scheduling 
systems. I am accompanied by my colleagues from VHA, Ms. Hillary 
Peabody, Acting Assistant Under Secretary for Health for Integrated 
Veteran Care (IVC), and Dr. Mark Hausman, Executive Director, Access 
Transformation, IVC.

Enterprise Scheduling Modernization: A Collaborative Effort

    VHA and OIT are working together on the Enterprise Scheduling 
Modernization effort, which aims to streamline and enhance VA 
scheduling systems. The modernization of our scheduling tools is 
essential for ensuring Veterans receive the best and most timely care 
while simplifying processes for Veterans and VA staff. By consolidating 
and upgrading our scheduling systems, we are laying the foundation for 
a seamless, more efficient, and more Veteran-centered health care 
system.
    VA's Enterprise Scheduling Modernization efforts introduce new 
functionalities designed to improve access to care for Veterans. These 
include the ability to schedule virtual and in-person appointments 
across VA facilities, consolidating multiple scheduling functions into 
a unified platform, and provider-based scheduling that integrates 
various appointment types into a single scheduling application. Our 
modernization efforts are crucial in bringing VA scheduling systems up 
to industry standards, enabling us to schedule any type of appointment 
with greater flexibility and efficiency. Our ultimate goal for these 
scheduling improvements is to connect Veterans with the best available 
resources for the most convenient and most appropriate care. To provide 
the best health outcomes for Veterans, VA must invest in modern 
scheduling tools that have near-term benefits and ultimately 
facilitates a long-term scheduling solution.

Key Scheduling Tools and Benefits

Integrated Scheduling Solution

    The Integrated Scheduling Solution (ISS) is a staff-facing, web-
based application currently used for scheduling Veteran appointments 
that ultimately consolidates functionalities from multiple scheduling 
applications into a single enterprise scheduling solution for care in 
VA health care facilities. ISS represents a significant leap forward 
from our legacy system, VistA Scheduling Enhancement Graphical User 
Interface (VSE GUI) by offering a more integrated, intuitive, and 
efficient scheduling process. We began the enterprise-wide rollout of 
ISS September 2024, and full implementation is expected by February 
2025. Enhancements, including additional appointment types and 
telehealth capabilities are underway, and we anticipate retiring VSE 
GUI by June 2025. Ultimately, ISS will be the future single scheduling 
system that will house all scheduling tools and functionalities; this 
will allow VA staff to schedule appointments in a single platform 
across multiple sites of care.

Clinic Capacity Search Tool

    The Clinic Capacity Search Tool (CCST) is a simplified web 
application providing the ability to search and view all available 
appointments for requested service and modality across multiple 
facilities. Currently, CCST enables the scheduling of telehealth 
appointments, providing Veterans with quicker access to care and a 
broader range of available options. We are enhancing CCST to include 
additional in-person clinical resources, and we are scheduled to begin 
rolling out of these new features in January 2025.

Clinic Configuration Manager

    The Clinic Configuration Manager (CCM) is a web-based tool VHA 
administrative staff use to provide a standardized approach to managing 
availability with providers anywhere in VA. Fully implemented in March 
2024, CCM reduces discrepancies, increases efficiency and improves 
scheduling.

Community Care Scheduling: External Provider Scheduling (EPS) Platform

    External Provider Scheduling (EPS) is a technology platform that 
will be able to improve the process of scheduling Veterans with 
community care providers by supplying information on care availability 
and allowing VA staff to schedule Veterans directly into available 
community care provider appointment slots through a singular user 
interface. EPS connects VA and community care providers to streamline 
care navigation and coordination activities. EPS offers information on 
who, where, and when community care providers and services are 
available to support informed Veteran decision-making.

Moving Forward

    VA's scheduling modernization efforts aim to improve timeliness 
between a Veteran's request for care and the scheduling of their 
appointment, ensure Veterans receive the best available resources, and 
enhance coordination and information sharing between VA and community 
care providers. Our multiple scheduling efforts strengthen the 
collaboration between VA, Veterans, and community care providers and 
will ultimately unite under our ISS platform. ISS will integrate these 
tools and processes to create a streamlined scheduling experience 
across the enterprise, which will lead to faster, more flexible care 
for Veterans. Our efforts enable VA staff to increase efficiency, 
reduce administrative burdens, and improve care delivery for Veterans 
in a sustainable and effective manner. Veterans will experience 
enhanced access to the best care more quickly, whether within VA or 
through community providers.

Conclusion

    Chairman Rosendale, Ranking Member Cherfilus-McCormick, and Members 
of the Subcommittee, thank you for the opportunity to appear today. 
VA's modernization efforts are transforming the way we deliver care to 
Veterans and support VA staff and providers. We are proud of the 
progress we have made and remain committed to continuing this journey 
of improvement for the benefit of our Veterans and the dedicated staff 
who serve them. This concludes my testimony, and I look forward to 
answering your questions.

                       Statements for the Record

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       Questions for the Record Submitted by Matthew M. Rosendale
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   U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs Response to Questions for the 
                                 Record
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