[House Hearing, 118 Congress]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]






                              


 
                   REVISITING THE IMPLICATIONS OF THE
                           FACE ACT: PART II

=======================================================================

                                HEARING

                               BEFORE THE

        SUBCOMMITTEE ON THE CONSTITUTION AND LIMITED GOVERNMENT

                                 OF THE

                       COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY

                     U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

                    ONE HUNDRED EIGHTEENTH CONGRESS

                             SECOND SESSION

                               __________

                      WEDNESDAY, DECEMBER 18, 2024

                               __________

                           Serial No. 118-106

                               __________

         Printed for the use of the Committee on the Judiciary
         
         
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               Available via: http://judiciary.house.gov
               
                       _______

             U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE 
 57-830          WASHINGTON : 2025 
               
               
               
               
               
                       COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY

                        JIM JORDAN, Ohio, Chair

DARRELL ISSA, California             JERROLD NADLER, New York, Ranking 
ANDY BIGGS, Arizona                      Member
TOM McCLINTOCK, California           ZOE LOFGREN, California
TOM TIFFANY, Wisconsin               STEVE COHEN, Tennessee
THOMAS MASSIE, Kentucky              HENRY C. ``HANK'' JOHNSON, Jr., 
CHIP ROY, Texas                          Georgia
DAN BISHOP, North Carolina           ERIC SWALWELL, California
VICTORIA SPARTZ, Indiana             TED LIEU, California
SCOTT FITZGERALD, Wisconsin          PRAMILA JAYAPAL, Washington
CLIFF BENTZ, Oregon                  J. LUIS CORREA, California
BEN CLINE, Virginia                  MARY GAY SCANLON, Pennsylvania
LANCE GOODEN, Texas                  JOE NEGUSE, Colorado
JEFF VAN DREW, New Jersey            LUCY McBATH, Georgia
TROY NEHLS, Texas                    MADELEINE DEAN, Pennsylvania
BARRY MOORE, Alabama                 VERONICA ESCOBAR, Texas
KEVIN KILEY, California              DEBORAH ROSS, North Carolina
HARRIET HAGEMAN, Wyoming             CORI BUSH, Missouri
NATHANIEL MORAN, Texas               GLENN IVEY, Maryland
LAUREL LEE, Florida                  BECCA BALINT, Vermont
WESLEY HUNT, Texas                   JESUS G. ``CHUY'' GARCIA, Illinois
RUSSELL FRY, South Carolina          ERICA LEE CARTER, Texas
MICHAEL RULLI, Ohio
Vacancy

                                 ------                                

        SUBCOMMITTEE ON THE CONSTITUTION AND LIMITED GOVERNMENT

                         CHIP ROY, Texas, Chair

TOM McCLINTOCK, California           MARY GAY SCANLON, Pennsylvania, 
DAN BISHOP, North Carolina               Ranking Member
KEVIN KILEY, California              STEVE COHEN, Tennessee
HARRIET HAGEMAN, Wyoming             VERONICA ESCOBAR, Texas
WESLEY HUNT, Texas                   CORI BUSH, Missouri
RUSSELL FRY, South Carolina          BECCA BALINT, Vermont
Vacancy                              Vacancy

               CHRISTOPHER HIXON, Majority Staff Director
         AARON HILLER, Minority Staff Director & Chief of Staff
                            C O N T E N T S

                              ----------                              

                      Wednesday, December 18, 2024

                           OPENING STATEMENTS

                                                                   Page
The Honorable Chip Roy, Chair of the Subcommittee on the 
  Constitution and Limited Government from the State of Texas....     1
The Honorable Mary Gay Scanlon, Ranking Member of the 
  Subcommittee on the Constitution and Limited Government from 
  the State of Pennsylvania......................................     3
The Honorable Jim Jordan, Chair of the Committee on the Judiciary 
  from the State of Ohio.........................................     6
The Honorable Jerrold Nadler, Ranking Member of the Committee on 
  the Judiciary from the State of New York.......................     8

                               WITNESSES

Paul Vaughn, Pro-Life Advocate
  Oral Testimony.................................................    10
  Prepared Testimony.............................................    13
Erin M. Hawley, Senior Counsel, Vice President, Center for Life 
  and Regulatory Practice, Alliance Defending Freedom
  Oral Testimony.................................................    75
  Prepared Testimony.............................................    77
Steve M. Crampton, Senior Counsel, Thomas More Society
  Oral Testimony.................................................   100
  Prepared Testimony.............................................   102
Jessica L. Waters, Assistant Professor, School of Public Affairs, 
  Justice, Law & Criminology, American University, Washington, DC
  Oral Testimony.................................................   115
  Prepared Testimony.............................................   117

          LETTERS, STATEMENTS, ETC. SUBMITTED FOR THE HEARING

All materials submitted by the Subcommittee on the Constitution 
  and Limited Government, for the record.........................   141

A portion of the transcript from FACE Act, May 5, 1994, House 
  Congressional Record, submitted by the Honorable Andy Biggs, a 
  Member of the Committee on the Judiciary from the State of 
  Arizona, for the record
Materials submitted by the Honorable Mary Gay Scanlon, Ranking 
  Member of the Subcommittee on the Constitution and Limited 
  Government from the State of Pennsylvania, for the record
    A Memo Opinion, Tennessee District Court's order, United 
        States. v. Gallagher, Jul. 3, 2023, United States 
        District Court, M.D. Tennessee, Nashville Division
    An Opinion, United States Court of Appeals, Sixth Circuit 
        decision, 2002 Norton v. Ashcroft, Jul. 31, 2002
    An article entitled, ``Abortion protester's arrest unrelated 
        to prayer, hymns | Fact check,'' Apr. 1, 2024, USA Today
    A press release entitled, ``Three Defendants Plead Guilty to 
        Civil Rights Conspiracy Targeting Pregnancy Resource 
        Centers,'' Jun. 14, 2024, Office of Public Affairs, U.S. 
        Dept. of Justice
Materials submitted by the Honorable Chip Roy, Chair of the 
  Subcommittee on the Constitution and Limited Government from 
  the State of Texas, for the record
    Thousands of letters regarding the repealing of the FACE Act, 
        to the Honorable Chip Roy, Chair of the Subcommittee on 
        the Constitution and Limited Government from the State of 
        Texas
    A letter in response from Assistant Attorney General Carlos 
        Felipe Uriarte, Department of Justice, regarding the FACE 
        Act, to the Honorable Chip Roy, Chair of the Subcommittee 
        on the Constitution and Limited Government from the State 
        of Texas

                                APPENDIX

Materials submitted by the Honorable Mary Gay Scanlon, Ranking 
  Member of the Subcommittee on the Constitution and Limited 
  Government from the State of Pennsylvania, for the record
    A letter from Carlos Felipe Uriarte, Assistant Attorney 
        General, Department of Justice, regarding the FACE Act, 
        May 14, 2024, to the Honorable Chip Roy, Chair of the 
        Subcommittee on the Constitution and Limited Government 
        from the State of Texas, for the record
    A letter from Carlos Felipe Uriarte, Assistant Attorney 
        General, Department of Justice, regarding the indictment 
        of Mark Houck and the FACE Act, Nov. 6, 2023, to the 
        Honorable Jim Jordan, Chair of the Committee on the 
        Judiciary from the State of Ohio
    A letter from the Honorable Chip Roy, Chair of the 
        Subcommittee on the Constitution and Limited Government 
        from the State of Texas, regarding the FACE Act, Aug. 19, 
        2024, to the Hon. Christopher Wray, Director, Federal 
        Bureau of Investigation


          REVISITING THE IMPLICATIONS OF THE FACE ACT: PART II

                              ----------                              


                      Wednesday, December 18, 2024

                        House of Representatives

        Subcommittee on the Constitution and Limited Government

                       Committee on the Judiciary

                             Washington, DC

    The Subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 2:37 p.m., in 
Room 2141, Rayburn House Office Building, the Hon. Chip Roy 
[Chair of the Subcommittee] presiding.
    Members present: Representatives Roy, Jordan, McClintock, 
Bishop, Kiley, Hageman, Hunt, Scanlon, Nadler, Escobar, and 
Balint.
    Also present: Representatives Biggs and Lee Carter of 
Texas.
    Mr. Roy. The Subcommittee will come to order. Without 
objection, the Chair is authorized to declare a recess at any 
time. We welcome everyone to today's hearing on revisiting the 
implications of the FACE Act.
    Without objection, Ms. Lee Carter and Mr. Biggs from 
Arizona will be permitted to participate in today's hearing for 
the purpose of questioning the witness if a member yields her 
time for that purpose.
    I would just like to add that I would welcome Ms. Lee 
Carter. We remember your mother's participation and 
contributions to this Subcommittee, and we look forward to 
having you participate here today.
    I will now recognize myself for an opening statement. The 
reason that statues of Lady Justice show her wearing a 
blindfold is because it is not supposed to matter who is being 
judged, what they believe, or who they voted for. The rule-of-
law demands an equal application of the law without fear or 
favor. That is why we are here today.
    The FACE Act is a Federal law originally designed to 
equally protect access to abortion clinics, pregnancy resource 
centers, and places of worship by prohibiting threats of force, 
destruction, and property damage. Unfortunately, over the past 
four years, the Biden-Harris Administration has weaponized this 
act, disproportionately targeting prolife Americans for FACE 
Act violations while simultaneously failing to protect 
pregnancy resource facilities despite being the target of 
growing violence.
    On May 2, 2022, a draft copy of the Supreme Court's 
decision in Dobbs was leaked to the press and gave rise to 
widespread attacks on nearly 100 prolife facilities and 300 
Catholic churches, which were vandalized, damaged, and even 
firebombed. Only in the aftermath of the leak did the DOJ begin 
to more aggressively pursue FACE charges, yet these 
prosecutions did not address these significant increases in 
violence, but rather the largely peaceful prolife 
demonstrations at abortion clinics.
    Since the start of the Biden-Harris Administration until 
May 2024, the DOJ had brought a total of 24 FACE Act cases 
against 55 defendants, with only two of these cases concerning 
attacks on pregnancy resource centers. To this day, the FACE 
Act has never been used in defense of a church since it was 
passed in 1994. When the DOJ does prosecute pro-abortion 
activists, the vigor with which they pursue and penalize these 
individuals pales in comparison to the penalties faced by 
prolife advocates.
    Take, for example, one of our witnesses here today, Paul 
Vaughn, who was prosecuted for praying outside of an abortion 
clinic. Vaughn was arrested when an FBI SWAT team raided his 
home at gunpoint early in the morning in front of his wife and 
11 children, later sentencing him to six months of home 
confinement and three years of probation.
    Another FACE Act defendant, Lauren Handy, was sentenced to 
57 months in prison for her role in protesting late-term 
abortion within our Nation's capital. I would note this happens 
to be an individual that I don't always align with 
philosophically.
    In another grotesque prosecution, the weaponized Biden-
Harris Justice Department recently sentenced a 75-year-old 
grandmother, Paulette Harlow, to a 24-month Federal prison 
sentence. Again, in the case of Eva Edl, an 89-year-old--I 
repeat, 89-year-old--death camp survivor who is awaiting 
Federal sentencing for her peaceful advocacy for praying for 
the unborn at abortion clinics, where prison time could be a 
potential death sentence given her age. She is a survivor, a 
survivor of concentration camps and abuse in Europe.
    Still, you don't see the weaponized Biden-Harris Justice 
Department pursuing antilife activists who vandalize prolife 
clinics with the same vigor. One day, after the Dobbs leak, a 
pregnancy resource center near the University of Texas campus 
was vandalized with pro-abortion slogans. Banners were torn 
down, and memorial bricks were dug up from the sidewalk, all 
while activists chanted, ``My body, my choice.'' No arrests 
were made. Similarly, a pregnancy resource center in Houston 
was vandalized with, ``Abortion for All'' written on the front 
of the clinic locks, gluing the entrance shut, causing $10,000 
in damage. No arrests were made.
    It doesn't stop with the FACE Act, either. This law is just 
one tool that the Biden-Harris DOJ has issued in its years-long 
crusade against political dissenters. The DOJ Civil Rights 
Division has chosen to undermine election integrity laws, suing 
States like Virginia for taking steps to ensure election 
integrity.
    The DOJ targeted Eithan Haim after he revealed that his 
employer, the Texas Children's Hospital, is performing illegal 
trans-gender medical interventions on minors. The DOJ Civil 
Rights Division opened pattern-or-practice investigation into 
local police departments in search of patterns of misconduct 
during the height of the defund the police movement. They 
advised colleges on how to get around SCOTUS's ruling on 
affirmative action, ensuring race remains a key factor for 
admissions.
    The Biden-Harris DOJ would rather focus its time and 
resources on these efforts as well as going after prolife 
grandmothers, sentencing them to years of Federal prison for, 
at best, a trespassing charge instead of targeting actual 
criminals.
    The Civil Rights Division has been used as a tool against 
the civil rights of the American people, undermining their 
freedom and liberties. While we expect the incoming 
administration to end this horrific practice at the DOJ, that 
is not good enough. The American people deserve to know that 
their rights will not be violated, regardless of which 
administration is in power.
    It has been long time for Congress to address this 
weaponization legislatively. The Republican Congress must start 
to ensure that future weaponization is not possible by passing 
the legislation H.R. 5577 to repeal the FACE Act. It is not 
enough to merely end Biden-era discrimination. We must act to 
reverse these wrongful imprisonments, reuniting families who 
have been collateral damage to this administration.
    The Trump Administration should consider pardoning and 
commuting the sentences of FACE Act defendants who have been 
victims of this targeted harassment. Unequal application of the 
law is not truly law; it is tyranny imposed on those who didn't 
have the power by those who do have it. That is contrary to 
everything we believe as Americans.
    I thank our witnesses, some of whom know these abuses all 
too well, for being here today to address the need for 
fundamental and permanent reforms at the Department of Justice.
    I now yield to the Ranking Member for her opening 
statement.
    Ms. Scanlon. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank you to our 
witnesses for joining us.
    We are here today, according to this hearing's title, 
``Revisiting the Implications of the FACE Act: Part II.'' Part 
I occurred in May 2023, under the Chairship of now Speaker 
Johnson. During the intervening year and a half, things really 
haven't changed that much.
    We continue to see heightened political violence concerning 
reproductive rights, particularly by right-wing extremists. We 
continue to see the House GOP's efforts to claim 
disproportionate enforcement under the FACE Act, all while 
ignoring the disproportionately greater number of attacks 
against reproductive healthcare facilities that provide 
abortion care. We continue to see our GOP colleagues ignoring 
facts and pushing a false narrative of selective enforcement to 
form a pretext for the repeal of the FACE Act.
    What has become clear in the intervening months is that 
this attack on the FACE Act is part of a coordinated extreme 
antichoice agenda that seeks to gut reproductive rights and 
effectively ban abortion care in the United States. That agenda 
is outlined in the extremist conservative manifesto called 
Project 2025, which was rolled out just weeks before Part I of 
this hearing.
    Unless our Republican colleagues once again deny any 
connection between Project 2025 and their actions, we should 
note that both parts of this hearing have parroted false 
narrative of Project 2025, claiming selective enforcement 
against anti-abortion advocates on page--I believe it's 568 of 
Project 2025.
    Each of today's majority witnesses have close ties to 
Project 2025. Ms. Hawley is an anti-abortion lawyer and Senior 
Counsel at the Alliance Defending Freedom, the ADF, which is a 
Project 2025 Advisory Board member. Mr. Vaughn's arrest under 
the FACE Act for blockading a reproductive healthcare facility, 
for which he was convicted by a jury, is cited--I am sorry. It 
was on page 558 of Project 2025.
    I do have to correct the Chair's statement that Mr. Vaughn 
was arrested for praying at that facility. In fact, the record 
is quite clear. His arrest was for blockading the facility, not 
praying. Mr. Crampton, of course, was Mr. Vaughn's attorney in 
that case. So, they all have close ties to this manifesto.
    So, in revisiting the FACE Act today, our Republican 
colleagues are really just giving themselves another 
opportunity to signal their support to the extremists plotting 
to criminalize or block access to abortion across the country. 
The only thing that has changed since the first iteration of 
this hearing is public awareness of the deeply unpopular plans 
outlined in Project 2025.
    Over the past year and a half, House Republicans have 
attempted to cloak their unpopular agenda with misleading 
claims that their policies will support women, children, and 
civil rights. Those claims have repeatedly turned up empty 
because the truth is every step we take toward a nationwide 
abortion ban drastically undermines the health and well-being 
of American women and children, and furthermore, it violates 
women's rights to make their own personal medical decisions 
without politicians invading their doctors' offices and their 
private business.
    The Freedom of Access to Clinic Entrances Act, or FACE Act, 
protects facilities providing access to abortion and other 
reproductive health services as well as places of religious 
worship--protects them from the use of force, threats, 
intimidation, or physical obstruction.
    The record from the Subcommittee's hearing on this topic in 
May of last year is clear. There is no credible evidence to 
support Republican allegations that the FACE Act is being 
selectively enforced. Even so, if our colleagues were actually 
concerned about that, you would assume they would be calling 
for stronger and broader enforcement of the FACE Act. Instead, 
our Subcommittee Chair and 47 other House Republicans have 
introduced legislation to repeal the FACE Act.
    Actions speak louder than words, and with that action, the 
motivation here is very clear. In repealing the FACE Act, they 
would invite every anti-abortion extremist to use violence, 
threats, intimidation to block access to abortion services 
everywhere, even in States where it is legal, a nationwide ban 
in practice if not in law.
    Congress passed the FACE Act in 1994 in response to two 
decades of escalating violence, intimidation, and blockades 
against abortion providers and their patients. The need for 
this protection was extremely clear, as the House Judiciary 
Committee and the Senate Labor and Human Resources Community 
detailed numerous incidents in their respective Committee 
reports of abortion providers being subjected to horrifying 
threats, including murder.
    Dr. David Gunn was murdered by an anti-abortion extremist 
outside a clinic in Pensacola, Florida, in March 1993. The 
House report on the FACE Act noted that Dr. Gunn's murder was 
the tragic culmination of years of threats, blockades, and 
personal attacks.
    In addition to threats against providers, both Committees 
detailed incidents where abortion clinics were the targets of 
arson, bombings, chemical attacks, and blockades by anti-
abortion extremists that resulted in sometimes severe injuries 
for doctors, clinic workers, volunteers, patients, and others.
    Today, the FACE Act remains an important deterrent to 
political violence regarding reproductive healthcare. Since 
January 2021, the Department of Justice has brought 25 FACE Act 
cases involving 57 defendants, and yes, those cases have 
involved both abortion providers and anti-abortion facilities. 
Of course, we must condemn all political violence and threats 
of violence, whatever the beliefs or motivations of those who 
engage in it and regardless of who the target may be.
    It remains that abortion providers and their patients are 
actually the ones who face higher levels of violence. To the 
extent there is a disparity in FACE Act prosecution, that 
disparity is a reflection of the facts.
    A 2022 report from the National Abortion Federation, which 
we introduced into the record in Part I of this hearing, 
confirmed that anti-abortion violence is escalating in the wake 
of the Dobbs decision. That report detailed that there was a 
100 percent increase in arsons and a 20 percent increase in 
threats of death and harm against clinics and providers as 
compared to 2021. There was also a 229 percent increase in 
stalking from 2021-2022, indicating an increase of reports of 
providers and patients being followed as they entered, exited, 
traveled to or traveled from clinics.
    Moreover, that report noted that after the Supreme Court 
issued its decision in Dobbs, clinics in States where abortion 
remains legal saw a disproportionate increase in violence and 
destruction. This escalating violence is part of an anti-
abortion extremist campaign to achieve by extralegal means what 
they have been politically unable to do since Dobbs, which is 
to enact a nationwide abortion ban.
    This decades-long effort, which the FACE Act has helped to 
de-escalate, involves intimidating doctors and providers from 
delivering necessary and often life-saving reproductive care 
and denying access to healthcare facilities where women can 
exercise the freedom to make decisions impacting their own 
health and their family's well-being because, as a leader of 
the anti-abortion group Operation Rescue said when asked during 
the FACE Act passage, if there is no one willing to conduct 
abortions, there are no abortions.
    Republican lawmakers are now trying to turn the FACE Act 
into yet another rallying cry in their cultural war against 
abortion, blatantly politicizing a law that is about protecting 
Americans and keeping them safe. In doing so, they knowingly 
enable dangerous and hostile rhetoric that threatens women's 
access to reproductive healthcare all across this country. 
Ultimately, that makes them complicit in the consequences of 
those actions.
    No one deserves to be denied medical care because of 
someone else's political or religious beliefs. Everyone 
deserves the freedom to provide or seek appropriate medical 
care without threats to their own safety, and all women deserve 
the freedom to work with their doctors to decide on and access 
the healthcare that is right for them. That is the America that 
my Democratic colleagues and I are fighting for because that is 
the America our constituents deserve.
    I yield back.
    Mr. Roy. I thank the Ranking Member.
    I would note that at least one thing that has changed since 
2023, as the Ranking Member referenced saying nothing had 
changed, we sent a letter to the Department of Justice. The 
Department of Justice responded to the letter, and I ask that 
we consent that we insert that in the record. Without 
objection, we will put it in the record.
    That confirms the numbers that I cited in the opening 
statement, that there have been 24 FACE Act cases against 55 
defendants obtaining 34 convictions, and of which only two were 
directed, as they say here, toward nonprolife--directed toward 
something that isn't attacking prolifers.
    With that, I would ask the Chair if he would like to offer 
up any statement.
    Chair Jordan. I thank the Chair. Yes, only two.
    What we forgot and what the Ranking Member didn't mention 
is, in the aftermath of the Dobbs leak and the Dobbs decision, 
that Spring and Summer, 103 churches and crisis pregnancy 
centers were attacked. She used the term ``extremist'' for the 
prolife people. Look. We are against all violence. I agree with 
that statement. That was not in any way an accurate picture of 
what took place in that Summer and, frankly, the disparity in 
who is prosecuted under the FACE Act.
    Here is the bottom line. Government has been weaponized 
against ``We the People.'' September 23, 2022, Mark Houck at 
home in Pennsylvania--ten unmarked cars pull up to his house at 
6:30 a.m., and arrest him in front of his wife and seven kids. 
What did they arrest him for? Praying in front of an abortion 
clinic and protecting his son from some crazy person screaming 
swear words in his child's face. In fact, he was prosecuted, 
went to court, and the jury of his peers found him not guilty.
    Twelve days after he is arrested, our witness, Mr. Vaughn, 
at home in Pennsylvania--arrested in front of his wife and 11 
children. What was he doing? Exactly what the Chair said: 
``Praying and singing hymns outside of an abortion clinic.'' 
Just came and got him.
    On March 5, 2024, in Mr. Bigg's State, Penny McCarthy, 66-
year-old grandmother in her driveway--U.S. Marshals pull up, 
guns drawn, and arrest her. They said she violated parole, a 
parole violation for a nonviolent offense from 25 years 
earlier. They show up with guns drawn and arrest this lady. She 
said, ``I think you got the wrong person.'' Guess what: She was 
right. They had the wrong person.
    Of course, we had a hearing on this right here in this 
room. Bryan Malinowski. Bryan Malinowski--the top official, 
highest paid official in the municipal government in Little 
Rock, Arkansas, gun hobbyist. Sold six guns, and the ATF said, 
``You're a felon because you sold six guns without a license.'' 
They show up. Again, ten cars show up at 6:01 a.m.
    First thing you see--because we got the video. The first 
thing they do is walk up and put tape on the doorbell cam. 
Fifty-three seconds after they put tape on the doorbell cam, 
Bryan Malinowski is shot and later dies. They weren't even--
this wasn't even an arrest warrant. This was a search warrant. 
They have been surveilling this guy for two weeks. They were 
going to go the week before, but found out he wasn't home, so 
they waited for him to be home to--you can't make any sense of 
what they did.
    Government has certainly been weaponized against ``We the 
People.'' Of course, last week--what did we find out last week? 
Two Inspector General reports came out last week. The first one 
said when Chris Wray first started at the FBI, they spied on 
Capitol Hill staffers. Here's the amazing thing: One of the 
guys they spied on is the guy who's going to replace Chris 
Wray. They spied on Kash Patel, got the email. Who are you 
emailing to? Emails coming in to you, phone calls--did that 
to--and it was Democrats, too. Democrats should be just as 
outraged. They were spying on Republican and Democrat staffers.
    Of course, the second report that came out last week from 
the Inspector General--we find out that there were 26 
confidential human sources here in the Capitol, at the Capitol. 
Well, some of them came into the Capitol, 26 of them on January 
6th. Seventeen went into the restricted area. Four went into 
the Capitol. Zero were arrested.
    Remember, confidential human source is a fancy name for 
spy--spying on Americans that day. We also know they spied on 
parents, right? Spied on moms and dads going to school board 
meetings. We know. They have to set up a snitch line. You could 
report on parents. One of the FBI whistleblowers came and 
testified in front of this Committee--this Congress told us he 
was sent to go get license plates from parents in the parking 
lot when they're at a school board meeting. Our government is 
doing that.
    Of course, all this makes me wonder, are they spying? Might 
they be spying on prolife activists, other Americans who are 
concerned about the sanctity of human life? Might they be doing 
that? Well, guess what: They tried that, too. They tried that, 
too, because we got the memorandum from the Richmond Field 
Office earlier this Congress.
    On page 4 of this memo says,

        We now have new opportunities to mitigate violent extremism 
        threat through outreach to traditional Catholic parishes and 
        the development of sources with the placement and access to 
        report on places of worship.

Now, that is fancy FBI-speak for, ``We are going to put spies 
in the parish, spies in the church in America.'' All this stuff 
happened. So, thank the good Lord we had a change in this 
administration back on November 5th.
    I want to thank the Chair for his tireless work on 
advocating for the sanctity of life and looking at this law. I 
want to thank Ms. Hawley, Mr. Vaughn for what you have been 
through, both of you for coming and testifying, Mr. Crampton 
for your good work at the Thomas More Society, and for being 
with us today.
    Protecting the sanctity of life is critically important, 
and just as important is the First Amendment, your right to 
speak, your right to pray, all the rights we enjoy under the 
First Amendment. That is why this Committee, which is charged 
with protecting the Bill of Rights, the Constitution, and those 
important freedoms we have as Americans, is so darn important.
    I thank the Chair for all his good work and yield back.
    Mr. Roy. I thank the Chair.
    Now, with that, I would recognize the Ranking Member of the 
Full Committee, Mr. Nadler, for his opening statement.
    Mr. Nadler. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Mr. Chair, since the last 
time this Subcommittee held a hearing on the Freedom of Access 
to Clinic Entrances Act, or the FACE Act, over a year ago, 
Judiciary Republicans have found no, zero, credible direct 
evidence that supports their speeches' claims regarding what 
they allege is the Department of Justice's uneven enforcement 
of the FACE Act.
    What has changed since then is that the Subcommittee Chair, 
along with 47 of his fellow House Republicans, have once again 
said the quiet part aloud. They have introduced a bill to 
repeal the FACE Act altogether. That is right. Anti-abortion 
extremists continue to use violence, threats, and destruction 
to curb access to abortion, so Republicans want to repeal the 
law that explicitly protects patients, providers, and 
facilities that provide reproductive health services from these 
ongoing threats.
    Republicans claim that prosecutors are selectively 
targeting anti-abortion protesters under the FACE Act and 
declining to prosecute threats against anti-abortion 
facilities. There is zero evidence for their claims. On the 
contrary, it appears that DOJ is enforcing the law without 
regard to defendants' viewpoints.
    I fear, however, that once Republicans complete their 
takeover of the Federal Government next year, they will use 
these sham allegations as a pretext to put a bill revoking the 
FACE Act's important Federal protections on President Trump's 
desk. This would represent a dangerous and unacceptable attack 
on public safety.
    The FACE Act was enacted because of a long-documented 
history of violence specifically directed against abortion 
providers, their staff, and their patients. The American people 
need strong enforcement of the law even more now in the wake of 
continued and escalating violence, threats, and intimidation 
against women and their doctors post-Dobbs.
    According to the most recent report issued by the National 
Abortion Federation, anti-abortion extremists have intensified 
their efforts to block access to abortion facilities in those 
States that protect the right to obtain an abortion. Even by 
their own terms, FACE Act repeal is a nonsensical course of 
action. If House Republicans' supposed concern is uneven 
enforcement of the FACE Act, why wouldn't they simply call for 
the incoming Trump Administration to prioritize cases involving 
protection of anti-abortion facilities, which are explicitly 
protected under the FACE Act?
    Instead, the Chair and his Republican colleagues have come 
up with a new, equally farcical pretext for attacking the FACE 
Act: They believe that it is unconstitutional and should be 
eliminated altogether. While the Supreme Court has not weighed 
in on the constitutionality of the act, that is because, as far 
as I can tell, every Federal Circuit Court of Appeals that has 
considered the issue has upheld the FACE Act against challenges 
that the law violates the First Amendment's free speech 
guarantees or exceeds Congress's authority under the Commerce 
Clause.
    House Republicans' manufactured narrative about the FACE 
Act, however, makes perfect sense if one recognizes that their 
ultimate goal is to ban abortion nationwide. House Republicans 
clearly feel more beholden than ever to the special interests 
of anti-abortion activists over the will of the American 
people, a majority of whom reject their extreme anti-abortion 
agenda.
    As we stand on the eve of the next Trump Administration, 
today's hearing, the last of the Judiciary Committee in the 
118th Congress, can only be interpreted as a message from House 
Republicans to these extreme anti-abortion activists. That 
message is, ``Sit tight,'' because Republicans will use the 
119th Congress to lay yet another brick in the groundwork for 
the Trump Administration's plans to use complete Republican 
control of the Federal Government to block women from obtaining 
the reproductive health-care they need, all while inching 
toward enacting a total nationwide ban on abortion.
    The House Democrats will not stay silent in the face of 
this onslaught. We will do everything within our power to 
protect the right to an abortion and to resist Republican 
efforts to enact a nationwide abortion ban.
    I yield back.
    Mr. Roy. Without objection, all their opening statements 
will be included in the record.
    We will now introduce today's witnesses. Mr. Paul Vaughn--
Mr. Vaughn is a prolife advocate and the President of 
Personhood Tennessee, an organization dedicated to the 
advancement of the recognition and protection of life from 
conception to natural death. He was prosecuted under the FACE 
Act by the Biden's Department of Justice for praying and 
singing hymns outside an abortion clinic.
    Ms. Erin Hawley--Ms. Hawley serves as Senior Counsel and 
Vice President of the Center for Life and Regulatory Practice 
at the Alliance Defending Freedom. Prior to joining ADF, she 
specialized in appellate law in private practice and has 
litigated extensively before various Federal Appellate Courts 
and the U.S. Supreme Court. She also previously served as an 
Associate Professor of Law at the University of Missouri, where 
she taught constitutional law, Federal income tax, and other 
courses.
    Mr. Steve Crampton--Mr. Crampton is a Senior Counsel at the 
Thomas More Society, a nonprofit public interest law firm that 
focuses on cases involving individual liberty. He has more than 
30 years of experience litigating religious liberties cases in 
both the civil and criminal justice systems.
    Professor Jessica Waters--Ms. Waters is an Assistant 
Professor of Justice, Law, and Criminology at the American 
University. She also serves as the Director of the American 
University School of Public Affairs Leadership Program. Her 
research focuses on higher education leadership, student 
success, and reproductive rights law and policy.
    We thank our witnesses for appearing today, and we will 
begin by swearing you in. Would you please rise and raise your 
right hand?
    Do you swear or affirm under penalty of perjury that the 
testimony you are about to give is true and correct to the best 
of your knowledge, information, and belief, so help you God?
    Let the record reflect that the witnesses have answered in 
the affirmative.
    Thank you. Please be seated. Please note that your written 
testimony will be entered into the record in its entirety. 
Accordingly, we ask you to summarize your testimony in five 
minutes.
    Mr. Vaughn, you may begin.
    I would remind everybody to turn your microphones on before 
you speak.

                    STATEMENT OF PAUL VAUGHN

    Mr. Vaughn. Chair Roy, Ranking Member Scanlon, and the 
honorable Members of this Committee, thank you for entertaining 
this important discussion today and allowing me to share our 
story with you.
    I'd like to speak to you about the DOJ's Project 2022. It 
happened October 5th at 7 a.m. in the morning, when my house 
was assaulted, my wife and children were terrorized, and I was 
kidnapped at gunpoint by four armed men.
    I had just sent three of my children to the car so I could 
take them to school when the house began to shake from a loud 
banging near the front door. I heard men shouting on my porch, 
``Open up. FBI.'' The banging continued.
    As I looked out a side window to check the location of my 
children, I saw two unmarked SUVs with lights flashing but I 
did not see my children. The banging continued and I heard more 
shouting. I opened the curtains on the front door to find three 
men with guns trained on the door.
    I asked who they were looking for and they replied, ``We're 
here for you.'' They did not identify me or provide 
identification for themselves. As I believed there was an 
imminent threat to the safety of my wife and seven children who 
were home that day, I determined to surrender myself to them, 
hoping that they were legitimate law enforcement.
    I opened the door and stepped out onto the porch, staring 
down the barrels of both a pistol and an automatic weapon 
pointed at my head.
    As I did, I asked what authority they were operating under 
and if they had any identification. I later learned at the same 
time three of my children, ages 12, 14, and 18, were being 
detained in the side yard on the edge of the woods by a fourth 
armed man.
    I was taken without the presentation of a warrant or 
identification when requested. Make no mistake, this was an 
armed conflict, and I was unarmed. Lethal force was abused and 
to abridge my God-given and constitutionally secured rights.
    At the moment of being placed in handcuffs I became a slave 
to ideological tyrants, either the ones holding the weapons or 
the ones they obeyed.
    The event that brought this ill-fated drama to my front 
door took place 18 months prior, as been noted. Prolife 
Christians gathered at carafem abortion clinics in Mount Juliet 
to attempt to save unborn children that were scheduled to die 
that morning.
    Out of the couple hundred people who attended that day 
eight adults were, in fact, arrested for nonviolently sitting 
at abortion clinic doors for doing a sit-in like many of you 
have seen right here in your own buildings by Antifa, BLM, and 
Hamas. I wonder how many of those have faced 10 years of prison 
for those activities.
    The fact remains that I did not do any of these things. I 
did nothing that was outside constitutionally protected free 
speech and religious freedom.
    I did nothing that day that I've not done many times since 
FACE was passed in 1994. I did not sit in. I broke no laws, 
Federal or local, and I was not arrested the day of the event. 
Yes, Member Scanlon, I did pray that day.
    I had talked with the police chief and lead negotiating 
team. I helped the police and the prolifers by messaging back 
and forth.
    The police spokesperson complimented us on the peacefulness 
nature of the event on the evening news. The lead negotiator 
testified for us in our Federal trial. There's a lot of talk 
about violence around the issue of abortion.
    Of course, all people of honor and character denounce acts 
of violence on either side of this issue. The narrative has 
been projected against the prolife people and fails to take 
into account at least three other aspects of violence around 
this issue.
    There is violence committed against every unborn child in 
every abortion. There's violence committed by aggravated 
fathers or other family members of aborted children and there's 
violence being done to prolifers by our own government.
    Any serious conversation about violence, going forward, 
needs to include these three facts. The FACE Act was ostensibly 
passed because of violence. As my family knows very well, all 
it did was give violence the cover of law and place it in the 
hands of the government.
    The phrase ``the process is the punishment,'' and the 
weapon-
ization of the FACE Act are not just words in our household. We 
are living the reality of those words.
    Since my arrest, I've been restricted to the Middle 
District of Tennessee for over two years under control and 
supervision of the Federal Government. My family spent 20 
months of having a potential decade in prison hanging over 
their lead provider's head--my head.
    We endured long, stressful days of the actual trial, 
enduring lies and half-truths for the sake of government 
winning a case with no regard to actually seeking justice.
    The process has entailed government agents invading and 
inspecting our home, calling my home to make sure I'm obeying 
the rules. It involved giving up my rights as a U.S. citizen in 
spite of the novel use of the 1,800 conspiracy laws.
    The Appeal Court refused to stay the order pending the 
appeal to find out if this was a legal right--application of 
the law.
    All this process is a punishment, and I was the one that 
did not get jail time. There are those who are in jail today 
while we are discussing this abuse, some of them for over a 
year at this point.
    With the overturning of Roe and the long train of abuses of 
the unequal application of the FACE Act there is no legitimate 
reason for it to remain on the books. It is a tool whose sole 
purpose is to stifle free speech and abuse the rights of 
Christian conservatives. There is nothing that the FACE Act 
does that is not already accomplished by State laws across the 
land.
    If abortion is returned to the States, so should the laws 
governing it.
    [The prepared statement of Mr. Vaughn follows:]
    
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    Mr. Roy. Thank you, Mr. Vaughn.
    Ms. Hawley, you may give your testimony.

                  STATEMENT OF ERIN M. HAWLEY

    Ms. Hawley. Good afternoon. Thank you, Chair Roy, Ranking 
Member Scanlon, and the Members of the Committee.
    One of the most enduring and crucial features of the 
American constitutional design is its commitment to the equal 
application of law.
    John Adams famously described the republic as a government 
of laws, not of men, meaning that in America the rule-of-law 
comes before politics. Yet, the Biden Administration has broken 
this promise.
    It has consistently put politics above the rule-of-law in 
its one-sided application of the FACE Act to target prolife 
individuals.
    The text of the FACE Act is clear. Its protections apply 
to, quote, ``reproductive health services,'' which is broadly 
defined to include not only abortion facilities, but also 
pregnancy centers.
    The FACE Act also protects churches and other houses of 
worship from violence, vandalism, and intimidation. Instead of 
applying the FACE Act in an even-handed way, the Biden's DOJ 
has weaponized the act to target prolife advocates.
    Since 2001, it has brought criminal or civil cases under 
the FACE Act against 55 individuals, 50 of them prolife. It has 
charged 24 cases under the FACE Act, but only two in defense of 
pregnancy centers.
    Since the Dobbs decision was leaked in May 2022, there have 
been close to 100 pregnancy care centers that have been 
vandalized, spray painted, or firebombed.
    Only eight percent of the Biden DOJ's FACE Act cases have 
been filed to protect pregnancy centers. Again, just two cases.
    As for churches, again, expressly protected by the FACE 
Act, the Family Research Council has identified 436 instances 
of threats or violence in 2023 alone.
    Shockingly, the Biden Department of Justice has failed to 
initiate a single FACE Act prosecution to protect a house of 
worship. Take just a few examples of the violence confronting 
prolife organizations.
    On June 7, 2022, CompassCare's office in Buffalo, New York, 
was firebombed and tagged with spray paint reading ``Jane was 
here.'' Three days later on June 10th the Gretchen Pregnancy 
Resource Center in Oregon was set on fire, and on June 25th 
Life Choices in Longmont, Colorado, was firebombed and spray 
painted with the message, ``If abortions aren't safe neither 
are you.''
    Not only has the Biden Justice Department demonstrated bias 
in its refusal to prosecute violence against prolife 
organizations, but for the first time in the FACE Act's history 
the Biden's DOJ has used the FACE hook--excuse me, the FACE Act 
as a hook to tack on an additional conspiracy against rights 
felony charge.
    This charge comes with a potential 10-year prison sentence 
even for nonviolent civil disobedience, showing how the Biden's 
DOJ has upped the ante, placing prolife Americans in as much 
jeopardy as possible.
    Take Eva Edl, an 89-year-old survivor of a Soviet 
concentration camp, who sat in front of the entrance to an 
abortion clinic in a wheelchair. Because the Biden's DOJ tacked 
on a conspiracy charge, Eva could face a sentence up to 11 
years in Federal prison along with hundreds of thousands of 
dollars in Federal fines, all for singing and praying from her 
wheelchair.
    The Biden DOJ's one-sided use of the FACE Act raises 
serious concerns about viewpoint-based selective enforcement. 
While the Executive Branch does have discretion to decide 
whether to prosecute a case, it cannot selectively enforce the 
law in a way that violates the Constitution.
    As the Federal Courts have said, ``this is antithetical to 
a free society.'' The Biden's DOJ has consistently declined to 
enforce the FACE Act against individuals attacking pregnancy 
centers and churches while vigorously enforcing it against 
prolife advocates. That's the definition of selective 
enforcement.
    To make matters worse, the FACE Act is a questionable 
exercise of Congress' commerce clause authority. The Federal 
Government is one of limited enumerated powers.
    Thus, in United States v. Lopez and United States v. 
Morrison, the Supreme Court struck down two criminal statutes 
because they had nothing to do with commerce.
    These cases rejected the argument that Congress may 
regulate crime so long as it has an aggregate effect on 
economic activity. That would obliterate the distinction 
between what is national and what is local.
    To be clear, there is never any excuse for violence in 
expressing one's viewpoint. Repealing the FACE Act would not 
mean that criminal conduct could occur with impunity or without 
legal consequence. Every State has laws that regulate trespass, 
assault, disorderly conduct, unlawful assembly, and the like.
    In summary, the FACE Act has been weaponized to target 
prolife activity while leaving pregnancy centers and churches, 
largely, unprotected. This is not the even-handed application 
of the law the American people deserve.
    [The prepared statement of Ms. Hawley follows:]
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    Mr. Roy. Thank you, Ms. Hawley.
    Mr. Crampton, you may provide your testimony.

                STATEMENT OF STEPHEN M. CRAMPTON

    Mr. Crampton. Good afternoon.
    Mr. Chair, the Ranking Member, and the Members of the 
Subcommittee, thank you for allowing us the opportunity to 
testify here today.
    My name is Steve Crampton. I serve as Senior Counsel for 
the Thomas More Society, a national nonprofit law firm 
championing life, family, and freedom.
    I applaud this Committee for addressing this vital issue--
as the title of this Subcommittee suggests, the Constitution 
and limited government, both of which are keenly implicated in 
this issue.
    FACE should be repealed, as Ms. Hawley just said, first, 
because it's an unconstitutional law and, second, because it's 
an unnecessary Federal overreach into a matter traditionally 
and best left to the States.
    I also urge this Committee, however, to take action 
regarding the use and abuse of the Ku Klux Klan Conspiracy 
Against Rights Statute passed in 1870, which has for the first 
time in our Nation's history been pressed into service for use 
against these peaceful FACE protesters.
    People like Mr. Vaughn and the others, many of whom, as has 
been mentioned, are already in jail today, face that penalty 
that goes up from six months for a first offense, nonviolent 
FACE violation, to 10 years in the Federal penitentiary.
    This is an outrage, and it should not be permitted. 
Historically, FACE was always about one thing, abortion. The 
legislative history, the drafts of the early bill make this 
quite clear, as does the use and abuse of the FACE Act 
throughout its 30-year history.
    Moreover, FACE purports to prohibit intimidation of people 
on the basis of their views on abortion, whichever side they 
might take. The weaponized Department of Justice and its 
Gestapo-like FBI are using FACE itself to intimidate and 
silence peaceful prolife advocates.
    It is the government, not the peaceful advocates like Paul 
Vaughn, who are doing the intimidating here. Furthermore, since 
the historic Dobbs decision June 2022, reversing Roe there's no 
longer any pretense of abortion being a Federal right. Because 
the reason for the law has ceased to exist FACE itself should 
cease to exist. It should be repealed.
    Instead of the DOJ lessening its use of the FACE Act after 
Dobbs, what the Biden Administration has done is increase 
dramatically, perhaps a hundred fold, its application.
    Only after Dobbs was decided did they begin rounding up 
prolifers all around the country for incidents that had 
occurred years before Dobbs was even decided and they've thrown 
the proverbial book at them.
    Many of these peaceful prolifers will spend Christmas next 
week away from their families behind bars in a Federal 
penitentiary simply because they peacefully sought to interpose 
on behalf of helpless babies facing a most horrific and violent 
dismembering and death by abortion.
    While those who sought to protect babies in any means now 
are at risk under this administration regardless of their 
proximity to an abortion clinic, pro-abortion zealots who fire 
bomb churches and pregnancy resource centers are left free to 
carry on their campaign of terror at will even though churches 
and the PRCs are theoretically protected under FACE, too.
    Moreover, FACE was carefully crafted from its inception to 
criminalize only one side of the abortion debate, namely the 
prolife. This viewpoint bias in FACE is seen all too clearly 
when contrasting the cases of two of our clients, Mark Houck, 
who was already mentioned here, and Mark Crosby.
    This Subcommittee heard from Mark Houck how he was arrested 
at gunpoint in front of his wife and children. Ended up facing 
several years in the Federal penitentiary for two violations 
that were charged to FACE.
    Thankfully, he won at trial but only after going through 
the entire process. Contrast that case with that of Mark 
Crosby, 73-year-old prolife advocate brutally beaten on May 26, 
2023, by a pro-abortion zealot outside of Planned Parenthood 
clinic in Baltimore, Maryland.
    Although Mr. Crosby offers counseling on so-called 
reproductive health services, it should otherwise qualify for 
protection under FACE, guess what?
    His assailant is free from any FACE prosecution because 
they carefully defined what constitutes a reproductive health 
service and the counseling protected thereunder to be connected 
only to a facility. Because Mr. Crosby is on the sidewalk he 
had gotten no protection.
    What we have here is an out-of-control Department of 
Justice. The rule-of-law mentioned by Ms. Hawley has suffered 
and it may prove to be a mortal wound. This two-tiered system 
of justice must end.
    Thank you. I look forward to your questions.
    [The prepared statement of Mr. Crampton follows:]
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    Mr. Roy. Thank you, Mr. Crampton.
    Professor Waters, you may offer your testimony.

                 STATEMENT OF JESSICA L. WATERS

    Ms. Waters. Chair Roy, Ranking Member Scanlon, and the 
Members of the Subcommittee, thank you for inviting me to 
testify today.
    We are here to discuss the Freedom of Access to Clinic 
Entrances Act, otherwise known as FACE. The specific provisions 
of FACE are detailed in my written testimony but, in brief, 
FACE created criminal penalties and civil remedies against 
specific types of conduct, not speech.
    That conduct includes the use of violence or threats of 
violence directed at people providing or obtaining reproductive 
health services or seeking to exercise their First Amendment 
religious rights at houses of worship.
    It prohibits physically obstructing the entrances to 
facilities that provide those services and prohibits damaging 
those facilities, importantly, only if these acts were 
undertaken to injure, intimidate, or interfere with someone 
seeking to obtain or provide the before listed services.
    I want to make three brief points about the impetus for 
FACE and why Congress found it necessary to implement a Federal 
remedy.
    First, as I detailed in my written testimony, there was 
clear evidence of escalating violence against reproductive 
health clinics and providers. As was summarized in the House 
Judiciary report on FACE between 1977-April 1993, so right 
before FACE was enacted, there were more than 1,000 acts of 
violence against providers of reproductive health services and 
the United States and these acts were serious ones.
    They included 36 bombings, 81 arsons, 131 death threats, 84 
assaults, two kidnappings, 327 clinic invasions, one murder, 
and over 6,000 clinic blockades and other disruptions, and 
while at the time of FACE passage the documented surge in 
nationwide interstate violence was against providers and 
clinics that provided abortion care.
    Congress wisely made the deliberate decision to protect any 
reproductive health service facility or reproductive health 
service provider regardless of whether they provide abortion 
care.
    My second point is that FACE was needed because existing 
State laws and remedies were demonstrably inadequate to 
provide--to protect providers and patients. The June 1993, the 
Senate Committee report on FACE made clear findings on this 
point noting several reasons why State remedies were 
inadequate.
    First, the patchwork of State laws made it impossible to 
address unlawful conduct that spanned across State lines. State 
penalties were often insignificant, thus not providing a 
deterrent effect.
    States weren't resourced to respond to the numerous 
blockades and were, as the Senate report on FACE stated, quote, 
``frequently overwhelmed by the sheer number of blockades,'' 
and, unfortunately, for some State law enforcement entities and 
officers were simply unwilling to enforce State laws against 
people attempting to, in their view, stop abortions.
    My third point is that there is a constitutional--sound 
constitutional basis for FACE. Congress relied on both the 
commerce clause of the Constitution as well as Section 5 of 
14th Amendment and developed an extensive record in support of 
both.
    In support of commerce clause authority the record showed 
that reproductive health providers are involved in interstate 
commerce both directly and indirectly by things like purchasing 
medical supplies and equipment across State lines, that their 
patients engage in interstate commerce by traveling from one 
State to another to obtain services, that clinic employees 
travel across State lines to work, and that the conduct that 
FACE addressed directly negatively affects interstate commerce 
by, for example, forcing clinics to cease operating.
    Indeed, every U.S. Circuit Court that has considered the 
issue has found that the FACE Act is a constitutional exercise 
of Congress' authority under the commerce clause.
    I note these three points because they hold true today and 
speak to the need for continued enforcement of FACE. The 
statistics for 2022 show an increase in major incidents like 
arson, burglaries, death threats, and clinic invasions.
    There was also a sharp increase in violence and disruption 
in States that are protective of abortion rights. It is plain 
that many of us differ on questions of the legality and 
morality of abortion.
    I'm under no illusions about that as I sit here. Where I do 
hope we do not differ is in our condemnation for vandalism, 
violence, threats against any reproductive healthcare facility, 
whether it is a prolife facility, an IVF clinic, or a facility 
that offers comprehensive ranges of services including 
abortion.
    People should be able to seek medical care, and medical 
professionals should be able to go to work and provide it 
without fear of assault, invasions, blockades or murder, and 
this is an issue that warrants a Federal remedy.
    Thank you.
    [The prepared statement of Ms. Waters follows:]
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    Mr. Bishop. [Presiding.] Thank you, Professor Waters.
    We will now proceed under the five-minute rule with 
questions, and I recognize myself for five minutes of 
questioning.
    Mr. Crampton, I take it you represent Mr. Vaughn. I've had 
occasion to look at the Sixth Circuit's Opinion or a panel's 
Opinion there from November 24th--hang on one second--I guess, 
an application to stay his sentence and it, of course, went 
against you, Mr. Vaughn.
    I find this piece to be very interesting at the heart of 
what I believe to be the issue here. It says that you presented 
a study by the Crime Prevention Research Center which 
identified 135 attacks on prolife churches and pregnancy 
resource centers compared to only six attacks on abortion 
clinics since the date of Dobbs and that Mr. Vaughn's argument 
to the court was that under the FACE Act the Department of 
Justice has prosecuted only two people under the FACE Act for 
attacking pregnancy resource centers while prosecuting 26 
prolife activists under the same statute.
    Here's where it gets very interesting, having just read 
this. It says, but most of the incidents in the CPRC study 
appear to allege vandalism in potential violation of one 
subsection of the FACE Act rather than obstruction in violation 
of another subsection, which is what Vaughn was prosecuted for, 
and the government could exercise its discretion to prosecute 
obstruction rather than vandalism without violating the equal 
protection clause.
    Now, as I just ran across it--I've been practicing law a 
long time--well, practiced until I got here--and that may--I 
guess I get the distinction being drawn.
    When you consider that vandalism against pregnancy resource 
centers usually, almost always, itself is conveying a threat of 
force for people who may subscribe to the services of that 
clinic there's no distinction whatsoever between those acts and 
for the Department of Justice to exercise discretion to one and 
not the other based, apparently, on the ideology of the person 
engaged in those acts.
    I can't think of anything that seems to be more of an 
example of selective prosecution the Constitution would not 
abide. So, that's a stunning--what about that, Mr. Crampton? Do 
I have that wrong?
    Mr. Crampton. I think you have that exactly right, Mr. 
Congressman. A further distinction is as you suggest, I would 
argue the vandalism actions are of a more serious nature than a 
sit-in.
    Moreover, they were more recent. Mr. Vaughn's actions took 
place in 2021. Those acts of vandalism took place in 2023-2024. 
So, it's a very puzzling distinction that the court drew there.
    Mr. Bishop. To Professor Waters' point, I do not disagree 
that we don't want people engaged in violence around abortion 
clinics or pregnancy resource centers. It should be condemned, 
and it should be punished appropriately.
    When I see--I just wonder, Professor Waters, when you see 
these things where SWAT teams are going out to the homes of 
people because they've engaged in a nonviolent act, which I 
understand alleged here is a conspiracy to block access for an 
hour that denied one person--one patient and one employee 
access it just seems to me troubling that you got guns drawn 
and pointed at a man's head and his children arrested in the 
side yard or stopped at the--doesn't that seem we're in an 
environment where we're always talking about police officers 
should deescalate in the context of--what justifies that, 
Professor Waters? Does that disturb you?
    Ms. Waters. Thank you for the question. So, I will say that 
as a human listening to Mr. Vaughn speak, it sounds like that 
was a terrifying day and I'm not going to dispute his 
experience of that.
    I do not work for the DOJ. I am not involved in 
prosecutions--
    Mr. Bishop. I'm not trying to make you assign 
responsibility. I'm just asking for a simple--are there things 
we can agree on and it seems to me that, and I'll just leave it 
at this, Professor Waters. It just seems--because I think it's 
a very simple thing. I don't understand--and we have seen it in 
so many ways--it is the fundamental part of this weaponization.
    I was going to yield all my time to Mr. Biggs, but I got 
carried away. I just don't--the American people see these 
incidents and they seem to be made for CNN.
    When people of certain political persuasions or ideas are 
targeted and the SWAT team goes out and raids them in their 
homes and it's totally disproportionate.
    That must stop and I'll guarantee you it is going to stop 
in the next Administration.
    I have 15 seconds for you, Mr. Biggs.
    Mr. Biggs. Thank you, Mr. Chair. So, for that reason I 
won't even engage in a diatribe or ask questions, but I will 
ask that the May 5, 1994, the Congressional Record from the 
House, page 9409, Mr. DeLay's speech about this, the FACE Act 
passage be admitted into the record.
    Mr. Bishop. With my apologies and without objection, so 
ordered, and I now recognize the Ranking Member for five 
minutes of questions.
    Mr. Bishop. I beg your pardon. The gentleman is recognized.
    Oh, I see. Mr. Nadler is recognized.
    Mr. Nadler. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
    Mr. Vaughn says he wasn't acting violently. He was acting 
peacefully, quote, ``sitting in an abortion provider's doors,'' 
in other words, blocking access. In other words, violating the 
FACE Act, which is the Freedom of Access to Clinic Entrances 
Act. He was convicted of a crime by a jury of his peers because 
of that.
    He also said, or some other witnesses said, ``abortion laws 
have been returned to the States and so should enforcement.'' 
Abortion laws have been returned to the States, but enforcement 
in those States where abortion is still legal is a Federal 
responsibility.
    Professor Waters, has any Federal Court post-Dobbs 
considered the question of whether the FACE Act is 
constitutional and if so what did the court hold?
    Ms. Waters. Thank you for the question. It is important to 
point out that every Federal Court pre-Dobbs that has 
considered the constitutionality of the FACE Act, whether it is 
a First Amendment challenge or a commerce clause challenge has 
held that the FACE Act is constitutional.
    To my knowledge, there is one court that post-Dobbs has 
directly addressed the question of whether the FACE Act is 
constitutional, and that was actually in Mr. Vaughn's case.
    So, the District Court, the Federal District Court, in that 
case, on a motion to dismiss, held very squarely that in 
accordance with the prior precedent from many circuits, the 
FACE Act was constitutional and found that it was a valid 
exercise of Congress' commerce clause authority and also did 
not pose First Amendment--
    Mr. Nadler. Thank you. How would you describe the effect 
that State abortion bans have had on interstate commerce, such 
as on transit of persons across State lines?
    Ms. Waters. It's somewhat ironic when we think about a 
post-Dobbs world what that has created is more interstate 
commerce.
    We know that in 13 States, abortion is almost completely 
unavailable. We know that this means that a person, a woman who 
is seeking abortion care now needs to travel.
    We know that the rates of people traveling to receive 
abortion care have risen dramatically. One in five patients who 
seek abortion care now have to travel across State lines. That 
does not--what that does is increase expenses for that woman. 
She has to take more time off from work. She has to be away 
from her family. She has to pay the travel expenses that it 
takes to cross State lines. That pushes pregnancies later, 
right?
    So, the impact, ironically in a post-Dobbs world is more 
impact on interstate commerce.
    Mr. Nadler. Thank you. In 1993, during testimony before 
this Committee, the field director, the anti-abortion group 
Operation Rescue, when asked whether the purpose of violent and 
threatening activity by some anti-abortion activist was to deny 
women access to abortion services testified, and I quote,

        We may not get laws changed or be able to change people's 
        minds. But if there is no one willing to conduct abortions, 
        there are no abortions if there is no one willing to conduct 
        abortions.

    Are you concerned that today's evident joint effort by 
Congressional Republicans and anti-abortion extremists to 
repeal the FACE Act or to have it declared unconstitutional is 
another step in a campaign to intimidate abortion providers in 
States where the right to an abortion remains protected?
    Ms. Waters. I am concerned. I appreciate the statements of 
multiple members that they don't condone violence, and I am 
sure that is true. Unfortunately, there are people out there 
who will engage in violent activity. The statement you just 
read is a prime example of it.
    I do think that what we are operating now is a climate of 
fear. Medical professionals fear liability. They fear being 
able to do their jobs up to existing standards of medical care. 
Without protections like those provided in FACE, they fear for 
their own safety and the fear going to work. So, I do agree 
that we are in a climate of fear and uncertainty. I think that 
is deliberate. I think reversing the protections that we have 
will only add to that.
    Mr. Nadler. In other words, repealing the FACE Act would 
add to violence?
    Ms. Waters. It is very possible that it would.
    Mr. Nadler. Thank you. I yield back.
    Mr. Roy. [Presiding.] Ranking Member?
    Ms. Scanlon. I just wanted to seek unanimous consent to 
enter the two opinions that were mentioned, the Tennessee 
District Court's order and Memo Opinion denying Mr. Vaughn and 
his codefendants' joint motion to dismiss. That's U.S. v. 
Gallagher. The 2002 Sixth Circuit decision in Norton v. 
Ashcroft.
    Mr. Roy. Without objection.
    Ms. Scanlon. Thank you.
    Mr. Roy. With that, I will recognize the gentleman from 
California, Mr. Kiley.
    Mr. Kiley. Ms. Hawley, I'm from California. Would it 
surprise you to learn that there are pregnancy centers in my 
region that have had to invest significantly in security 
measures because of the multiplicity of threats against them?
    Ms. Hawley. It would not at all.
    Mr. Kiley. They have also been the subject of hostile 
legislation from our State legislature. One law was even struck 
down by the U.S. Supreme Court because of violation of the 
First Amendment. Of course, we have been talking about the ways 
in which the Biden Administration has turned a blind eye to 
hostile and potentially even violent actions against these 
centers.
    So gosh, they have been subject to attacks and to hostility 
at the State and Federal level. There must be really nefarious 
things going on at these places. Could you tell us some of what 
goes on there that might be sparking this outrage?
    Ms. Hawley. Sure. So, pregnancy care centers are a strange 
target for ire. Pregnancy care centers are there when no one 
else is. We know from women who have had abortions that the 
majority of them say they would have chosen a parent or chosen 
differently if they would have had additional resources, either 
financial or familial support.
    The pregnancy care centers are there to supply that support 
when they can. They provide financial resources. They provide 
material resources like car seats, baby blankets, clothes, 
financial resources, food, housing, job training, and resume 
training as well as parenting classes.
    In 2022, they provided almost $316 billion worth of goods 
and services to moms and families facing unexpected 
pregnancies. Again, a strange target.
    Mr. Kiley. A very strange target. They are giving away 
diapers. They are giving away wipes. They are giving away baby 
formula. Baby formula, that is outrageous, isn't it that they 
are just giving it away?
    What is driving this? It is really incredible that these 
centers that provide such critical services to people who are 
in need have been left in a position where they have to spend 
their own limited resources putting up a security fence or 
something like that to protect folks who go there.
    On a separate note in terms of the law here, so is there 
any precedent for a law that at least on its face is neutral to 
be challenged on First Amendment grounds based on this idea of 
selective enforcement? What would that look like and has that 
been attempted here?
    Ms. Hawley. Absolutely. There is a number of cases in 
Federal Court. I would point out to you the Frederick Douglass 
Foundation case decided unanimously by a D.C. Circuit panel a 
year or two ago. In that case, there was a vandalism--or excuse 
me, an ordinance against writing on public streets here in the 
District of Columbia. The court allowed that to go forward on 
the claim that it had been unequally enforced against prolife 
advocates and other advocates.
    Mr. Kiley. Very interesting. Perhaps something to look at 
and thank you very much for your testimony. I will yield the 
remainder of my time to my colleague from Arizona, Mr. Biggs.
    Mr. Biggs. I thank the gentleman. Ms. Hawley, have there 
been increased attacks against pregnancy resource centers 
during the Biden Administration?
    Ms. Hawley. Absolutely. We have had almost 100 attacks 
since the Dobbs' decision was leaked in May 2022.
    Mr. Biggs. Are you concerned that pro-abortion extremists 
would continue to attack pregnancy resource centers?
    Ms. Hawley. I think that's a concern. We just heard from 
the gentleman from California about pregnancy care centers who 
are having to build security fences and hire security guards. 
That is something that is now commonplace for centers that 
provide resources to women.
    Mr. Biggs. Mr. Vaughn, would you characterize the events in 
Mount Juliet Tennessee as violent?
    Mr. Vaughn. Absolutely not.
    Mr. Biggs. Did you or anyone with you pose a physical 
threat to the people around you?
    Mr. Vaughn. Absolutely not.
    Mr. Biggs. Was there anything you did or said that could 
cause someone to think their life was immediately in danger or 
harm?
    Mr. Vaughn. Absolutely not.
    Mr. Biggs. So, it was clear you were not a threat to anyone 
around you?
    Mr. Vaughn. That is correct.
    Mr. Biggs. When the FBI came to serve your indictment, they 
raided your house and arrested you at gunpoint in front of your 
family?
    Mr. Vaughn. That is correct.
    Mr. Biggs. You know why they did that, right? It was to 
intimidate you.
    Mr. Vaughn. Sure.
    Mr. Biggs. It wasn't just to intimidate you and your 
family. It was to intimidate any other prolife activists in 
this country. That is the disproportionality that has resulted 
from the disproportionate impact of the enforcement of the FACE 
Act.
    So, you were at the brunt of that. This regime is going to 
attack anyone that has disparate beliefs from them. That is why 
they have gone after Catholics. That is why they have spied on 
parents at school boards. It is a tactic they have employed for 
the last four years against conservatives of any stripe.
    Criminal terrorists and illegal aliens, let them in. Give 
them free housing and other benefits. Conservative prolife 
Americans exercising their First Amendment rights, send the 
SWAT team to their house. That is clear political intimidation 
and that is why the FACE Act has to be repealed. Mr. Chair, I 
yield. Thank you, gentlemen.
    Mr. Roy. I thank the gentleman from Arizona. I thank the 
gentleman from California for yielding time to the gentleman 
from Arizona unlike my good friend from North Carolina, parting 
shot on the way out of the Committee. With that, I would yield 
five minutes to the gentlelady from Texas, Ms. Escobar.
    Ms. Escobar. Thank you, Mr. Chair. I would like to thank 
the witnesses for their testimony before the Committee today.
    We are closing out business in the House Judiciary 
Committee this Congress with a hearing that is meant to set the 
stage for the continued hostility we can expect next Congress 
toward reproductive healthcare.
    Not content with undermining abortion access across the 
country since the fall of Roe, my colleagues across the aisle 
continue their attacks on the right to safely seek reproductive 
care in this country.
    Let's remember that the reason the FACE Act was enacted at 
all was in direct response to escalating violence by the anti-
abortion movement on abortion patients, clinic employees, and 
providers.
    I want to be very clear. I stand firmly against all 
violence. I don't condone any threats or intimidation. I 
introduced the Healthcare Providers Safety Act earlier this 
Congress, which would amend the Public Health Service Act to 
authorize grants to healthcare providers to enhance the 
physical and cybersecurity of their facilities, personnel, and 
patients.
    My bill would give providers the needed resources to ensure 
the safety of patients and that providers are able to continue 
providing essential reproductive healthcare.
    Reproductive healthcare providers, patients, and facilities 
are frequently the targets of violence and harassment, ranging 
from vandalism to online harassment, to stalking, arson, and 
deadly attacks. Our providers deserve to care for patients, and 
patients deserve access to abortion care in safe environments.
    Ms. Waters, how can Congress build on the protections 
created by the FACE Act and what steps can Congress take to 
improve or strengthen protections for patients and providers?
    What other effective--or are there other effective methods 
to combat routine harassment and violence like the kind 
experienced by providers and patients at healthcare clinics?
    Ms. Waters. So, I think it is important to note that while 
FACE does provide an important Federal remedy that I would 
argue to your question that Congress needs to zealously 
protect, it does not preclude States from also enforcing 
remedies in their own State, right? So, we need both of those 
things, and we can hold both things. Both things can be true, 
right?
    It is incredibly important that Congress send the message 
that if someone is providing legal healthcare, which abortion 
providers and other medical professionals are in the majority 
of the States, they will be protected. They don't have to fear 
liability. They don't have to fear violence. They don't have to 
change their medical practice to try to comply with ever 
changing laws. That is a message that Congress can send.
    Ms. Escobar. I want to tell a very quick story to give 
voice to a number of constituents who reached out to me after 
the reversal of Roe. I heard story after story about women who 
were forced to terminate pregnancies because of the lack of 
viability of the fetus. Many of these constituents had to 
access their care at a clinic.
    As they were mourning the loss of a child they badly wanted 
but a fetus that if they carried to full term would threaten 
their own life, creating motherless children in their family, 
they had to walk--I heard stories about women having to walk 
past crowds of people screaming at them with photos that they 
did not want to see in that moment as they were trying to save 
their own life and be around for their other children and could 
not adequately even mourn the loss of their baby's life because 
they were spiraling into shame because of what was about to 
happen.
    I think it is really important that these women's stories 
be uplifted, which is why I wanted to share it with all of you 
today. Ms. Waters, thank you so much for your response. I 
appreciate it. I yield back.
    Mr. Roy. I thank the gentlelady from Texas. I would now 
recognize the gentlelady from Wyoming for five minutes.
    Ms. Hageman. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Wyoming's lone facility 
performing procedural abortions opened last year in Casper. On 
a routine basis, prolife Wyomingites pray, hold vigils, and 
participate in advocacy activities outside of the clinic. 
Advocacy to the clinic patients sometimes involves giving a 
woman a rose and informing them of alternative services offered 
at crisis pregnancy centers.
    Local reporting suggests that clinic employees are now 
claiming that this peaceful advocacy is harassment of patients 
and employees.
    The clinic is now escorting all their patients to and from 
the building in response to these peaceful actions. Earlier 
this year one of the clinic's escorts actually pleaded no 
contest and paid a fine for assaulting a member of the prolife 
protest group.
    There is now an attempt to elevate the harassment 
allegations to the local government.
    Mr. Vaughn, does the situation in Casper, Wyoming, that I 
just described sound similar to your case?
    Mr. Vaughn. It does.
    Ms. Hageman. Do you think prayer and peaceful advocacy are 
violations of the law or are they instead activities that are 
secured by the First Amendment to the United States 
Constitution?
    Mr. Vaughn. They are both First Amendment protected 
activities and activities of love and seeking to help others.
    Ms. Hageman. Have you experienced these attempted mischar-
acterizations of your peaceful activities as being criminal or 
violent in some way?
    Mr. Vaughn. Right here in this very hearing.
    Ms. Hageman. We heard it just today from the Ranking Member 
on the Judiciary Committee.
    Could you please explain and clarify what happened in your 
circumstances?
    Mr. Vaughn. Thank you for the opportunity. I was not 
sitting at any door. I was not standing at any door. At no time 
did I block anyone. My only activities were praying and talking 
with the police officers and relaying messages back and forth 
between the two parties.
    Ms. Hageman. OK. Do you think that the pro-abortion 
individuals who seek to misrepresent lawful activity as 
violence, that they are doing so because of the current 
administration's misapplication and unequal enforcement of the 
FACE Act?
    Mr. Vaughn. I think there is an element of that. I think as 
a Nation, we need to be able to communicate. As long as we sit 
here looking at each other face to face and we are not able to 
communicate and honestly represent facts, what hope is there 
for the news to get actually out to the people at the clinics?
    I would just add that the people going and seeking abortion 
as Ms. Escobar told her story, that is a tragic thing. If they 
stopped and talked to someone out at the clinic, what they will 
find is loving help and people that would take them to a crisis 
pregnancy center or offer some other solution to help, if it is 
possible. If it is not, then they would find someone that might 
pray with them and encourage them. They would not find someone 
if they stopped and engaged in a conversation and actually 
listened to someone yelling or screaming or abusing them 
verbally. Certainly, not physically.
    Ms. Hageman. Those who hate wisdom, love death. That is 
part of what we are dealing with here. That goes, Ms. Hawley, 
to your statement about how you find it so utterly bizarre that 
crisis pregnancy centers have been the target of protests, 
activities, and vandalism when it is offering services and 
support to individuals in need.
    I am with you. It is such a bizarre target. I think it 
demonstrates that this isn't necessarily a discussion about the 
FACE Act or the First Amendment or protecting constitutional 
rights or civil liberties.
    There is a pro-abortion agenda that has been pursued, 
especially by this administration that doesn't make sense. That 
the abuse of the FACE Act is an attempt to criminalize the free 
thought and the ability for people to, as you say, peacefully 
protest.
    It is a sad day in America when someone who is praying or 
attempting to have that kind of conversation that you are 
describing can be arrested years later for that behavior.
    Based on your experience with the FACE Act, Ms. Hawley, do 
you think that the pro-abortion community is aware that the 
Biden-Harris Administration is selectively applying the FACE 
Act against the prolife community?
    Ms. Hawley. So, I think it probably is. I would point out 
to you several press conferences that the Attorney General 
Gupta held. She announced just a short time after the Dobbs' 
decision was released a reproductive task force and noted that 
one of the goals of that reproductive task force during their 
daily meeting would be to seek out opportunities for FACE 
enforcement. Of course, that FACE enforcement would have been 
against prolife individuals.
    Ms. Hageman. Is praying outside an abortion facility where 
offering women information on alternative pathways, adoptions 
for their pregnancy a violation of the FACE Act?
    Ms. Hawley. It should not be, no.
    Ms. Hageman. To your knowledge, would that violate any 
Federal law, what I just described?
    Ms. Hawley. Not consistent with the First Amendment, no.
    Ms. Hageman. OK. The Biden Administration makes it appear 
that the FACE Act is merely a statute covering abortion 
facilities. In reality, it also prohibits certain acts against 
places of religious worship. Isn't that correct?
    Ms. Hawley. Absolutely.
    Ms. Hageman. Has the current administration, Attorney 
General Garland or Assistant Attorney General Kristen Clarke 
prioritize protecting religious places of worship, especially 
in the wake of the antisemitic violence which has occurred in 
the wake of October 7th?
    Mr. Roy. The gentlelady's has expired. So, you may answer 
the question and then we will move on.
    Ms. Hawley. Thank you, sir. Not at all. The Family Research 
Council identified 436 attacks on churches and houses of 
worship just in 2023. There have been zero, zero prosecutions 
under the FACE Act for that violence and threats.
    Ms. Hageman. Well, thank you. Thank you for your 
indulgence. With that, I yield back.
    Mr. Roy. I thank the gentlelady. I will now recognize the 
gentlelady from Vermont for five minutes.
    Ms. Balint. Thank you, Mr. Chair. I want to thank the 
witnesses for being here today. I know you are all very busy 
people.
    Before I get to my statement on the topic at hand, I have 
to start by saying words absolutely matter. Mr. Crampton 
earlier, you likened the FBI to the Gestapo, to Nazis. That 
kind of rhetoric is not actually helpful in this debate.
    The Gestapo operated without any civil restraints. Its 
actions were not subject to judicial appeal. Thousands of 
citizens, including Jews, trade unionists, political clergy, 
and others simply disappeared into concentration camps, one of 
those being my grandfather.
    The political arm of the Gestapo could order prisoners to 
be maimed, tortured, and murdered. There was no legal process. 
The Gestapo under Adolf Eichmann organized the deportation of 
millions and millions of Jews to concentration camps.
    Now, I understand that you feel passionate about this 
issue. I do. I understand that. Your use of the word Gestapo is 
inappropriate, is offensive, and it is uneducated. I urge you; 
I urge you as you continue your work to cease using this 
terminology because I think what we are trying to do here is 
actually elicit testimony that is helpful to get us to a better 
place. I don't think that this is helping.
    Professor Waters, if the Justice Department were to stop 
enforcing the FACE Act or if it were no longer law, could you 
describe for people--because that's really what these hearings 
are about--describe for people what effect that would have on 
access to abortion care and other reproductive rights?
    Ms. Waters. I think it is important to note that if the 
FACE Act were no longer enforced, many of the institutions and 
many of the organizations that the colleagues to the left of me 
have described, they would also be at risk, right? I don't 
quite understand the argument that we think that DOJ and the 
FBI should be doing more to protect prolife centers, but at the 
same we should repeal FACE.
    Ms. Balint. Agreed. This confuses me, too.
    Ms. Waters. I do think, but the record is also very clear 
that we have seen a campaign of coordinated violence and 
blockades against centers and providers of reproductive 
healthcare, including abortion. Without these Federal 
protections, that would only increase.
    I also think it is really important that we are precise in 
how we talk about FACE's protections. FACE very clearly does 
not reach peaceful protests outside of clinics that do not 
interfere with passage into that clinic. That is not covered 
under FACE. In fact, it is explicitly excluded.
    Ms. Balint. Can you say that again? Please, honestly, this 
is like the crux of it for me.
    Ms. Waters. It is an important point. Congress was very 
deliberate in carving out pure expressive activity from FACE's 
purview. So, some of the activities that have been described 
here, like peacefully protesting outside of a clinic and even 
having signs that may be inflammatory, as much as we may abhor 
that speech, the First Amendment likely protects that. It is 
important to distinguish between what FACE does and protections 
under the First Amendment.
    Ms. Balint. So, it is the blocking of the entrance that is 
making it difficult to get the care that they are entitled to.
    Ms. Waters. It is. It is violence. It is destruction of 
property. It is blocking entrances that is prohibited by FACE. 
FACE does not prohibit expressive speech.
    Ms. Balint. From your perspective, are clinic obstructions, 
even if they don't lead to threats of violence, like of course, 
we want to avoid violence, are they related to negative health 
outcomes? Have we seen increased mortality since Dobbs was 
overturned?
    Ms. Waters. We have seen an increase in both maternal 
mortality rates and infant mortality rates. Probably not 
surprisingly, those were going up very quickly in States that 
are most restrictive of abortion care.
    Ms. Balint. I thank you. I yield back.
    Mr. Roy. I thank the gentlelady from Vermont. I am going to 
use the time for myself now. Mr. Crampton, you just had some 
questions directed at you. I want to give you a chance to 
respond very quickly because I want to move on to the rest of 
the questions.
    I would note also that only 42 of my Democratic colleagues 
sought to join with us to sanction the International Criminal 
Court, which is trying to say that Prime Minister Netanyahu is 
somehow a war criminal for defending his country against the 
vicious attacks from Iran, from Hamas, from Hezbollah, and all 
of those that are trying to target the Jewish State. Do you 
have anything, quickly, to respond to the attacks?
    Mr. Crampton. Yes. Thank you very much, Mr. Chair, for the 
opportunity.
    I would point to the gentlelady the facts as testified to 
by Mr. Vaughn. Here comes people, guns drawn, banging on his 
door, as he described it, and it is not an unfair 
characterization. He was kidnapped at gunpoint before his wife 
and children. No authority given. Even when asked directly, 
they just point to a little sticker on the vest saying that is 
all the authority you are going to get. That says FBI.
    Mr. Roy. Mr. Vaughn, can you just add to that really quick? 
The phraseology is used. It was used intentionally by Mr. 
Crampton. We are talking about the Federal Bureau of 
Investigation showing up to your home, in front of your 11 
children, with a weapon pointed at you for what you did in 
terms of praying and your activity at an abortion clinic. Is 
that true?
    Mr. Vaughn. That is absolutely true.
    Mr. Roy. Do you think that was an appropriate use of the 
power of the Federal Government against you?
    Mr. Vaughn. Absolutely not. I am a local businessman. I 
have been there for 17 years in the community. A phone call, I 
would have happily talked to them.
    Mr. Roy. Does not that invoke the kind of images Mr. 
Crampton is talking about of previous examples in history in 
terms of the fascism that we see out of Nazi Germany and how 
they treated citizens?
    Mr. Vaughn. It absolutely does. The gentlewoman said that 
there is recourse is by law and that there are laws that 
oversee this. I would like to ask for my 13-, 12-, and 18-year-
old daughters that was out in the side yard, what recourse do 
they have at law for the abuse that they handled at this guy, 
holding them at bay right there? Also, at the Department of the 
FBI in Tennessee that two months later shot a guy in his own 
living room.
    Mr. Roy. As a reminder--
    Mr. Vaughn. An internal investigation, who is investigating 
the investigators?
    Mr. Roy. As a reminder, Mr. Vaughn, you were there because, 
as I understand your position, you believe that life begins at 
conception. You believe you are protecting and praying for 
life, correct?
    Mr. Vaughn. That is absolutely correct.
    Mr. Roy. Your great sin, that the tyranny of the Federal 
Government was brought to bear against you at your home with a 
weapon in front of your 11 children was because you want to 
protect a human life?
    Mr. Vaughn. That is correct.
    Mr. Roy. Ms. Hawley, are you familiar with the history of 
this Act? Because it is not true that the current leader in the 
Senate, Mr. Schumer, was the lead proponent of the FACE Act in 
1993. In questioning for Republican Members of Congress, when 
asked about whether or not this would be used against, for 
example, we have 3, 10, 12 people prolife on a sidewalk in 
front of a clinic. People cannot get by. Police locked them up 
and put them in a paddy wagon. Take them away. Are they subject 
to a felony? Mr. Schumer said, ``no.'' Yet, here we are.
    Can you shed light on the extent to which the truth is, 
notwithstanding what Professor Waters said a minute ago, that 
what we are dealing with here is the conflation of the existing 
statutes and the things that go back to the Ku Klux Klan Act 
and that we now have a situation under the Federal civil rights 
conspiracy that they are blending these together to target 
people intentionally. That they are using this and targeting it 
intentionally, so that they can go after people, punishable by 
up to 10 years in prison. Can you add some context to that, Ms. 
Hawley?
    Ms. Hawley. Absolutely. So, the FACE Act comes with several 
different sorts of levels of punishment.
    For a first-time nonviolent offense, there is six months in 
jail. A subsequent nonviolent offense might get 18 months in 
jail. If you tack on a conspiracy to violate civil rights, you 
get 10 years.
    Take Eva Edl. She was sitting in a wheelchair. She was 
blocking an entrance. Sitting in a wheelchair, blocking the 
entrance, singing and praying hymns, she is subject to 11 years 
in Federal prison and hundreds of thousands of dollars of 
fines.
    Mr. Roy. So, what we are talking about here, as I 
mentioned--Mr. Vaughn, did you have something you wanted to add 
there?
    Mr. Vaughn. No.
    Mr. Roy. That Mr. Vaughn is facing this kind of 
persecution. He is not alone. We have talked about Ms. Edl. To 
be clear, this conflation of the statute, had that ever been 
done before prior to Kristen Clarke?
    Ms. Hawley. Not until the Biden Administration, no.
    Mr. Roy. So, this administration took the unprecedented act 
of merging these together so they could have a Federal 
conspiracy to target very specifically prolife activists.
    Ms. Hawley. So, the numbers here speak for themselves. 
Again, 55 individuals have been subject to prosecution under 
the FACE Act. Fifty of those have been prolife. There have been 
26 FACE Act civil and criminal prosecutions. Only two of them 
have been in protection of pregnancy centers.
    Mr. Roy. Just to finish here, do you think that is an 
appropriate use of Federal authority to say target Mr. Vaughn 
or say Ms. Edl who had been in Yugoslavia and effectively 
gulags and now at 89 years old is being targeted by the 
government of the United States?
    Ms. Hawley. No. As John Adams would say, we are a 
government of laws, not of men. The Supreme Court has been 
clear that selective enforcement based on viewpoint is 
unconstitutional.
    Mr. Roy. Well, thank you for your testimony. I appreciate 
it. With that, I will recognize the Ranking Member, Ms. 
Scanlon.
    Ms. Scanlon. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Professor Waters, we 
seem to have conflated a lot of things here in suggesting that, 
inaccurately, that Mr. Vaughn was prosecuted for prayer.
    You noted in your testimony that the FACE Act explicitly 
distinguishes between protective expressive speech and unlawful 
conduct. We have talked a lot about what is expressive speech, 
but the unlawful conduct includes things such as obstructing 
access to a clinic, does it not?
    Ms. Waters. That's correct. FACE explicitly makes clear 
that obstructing access to a reproductive health services 
clinic or a place of worship is a violation of FACE.
    Ms. Scanlon. Mr. Chair, I would like to have unanimous 
consent to introduce the press release when Mr. Vaughn was 
convicted, six defendants convicted of Federal civil rights 
conspiracy in freedom of access to clinic entrance for 
obstructing access to reproductive health services in 
Tennessee.
    Also, a USA Today article saying, ``Tennessee Man Arrested 
for Blocking Access to Abortion Clinic, Not Praying.''
    Mr. Roy. Without objection.
    Ms. Scanlon. Thank you. Recent data, Ms. Waters, from the 
National Abortion Federation shows that violence and threats 
directed toward abortion providers and their patients have 
risen. Can you speak about this escalating trend and 
particularly in light of this increasing threat to reproductive 
health services, does the FACE Act continue to be a relevant 
tool to protect doctors, nurses, patients, and volunteers who 
are seeking or providing abortion care?
    Ms. Waters. It continues to be a relevant tool to protect 
anyone who is providing reproductive healthcare services, 
including abortion care.
    What we have seen is reports of escalating violence and 
more numerous violence, including things like blockades 
happening particularly in States that are protective of 
abortion care.
    As I noted earlier, women seeking abortion care in many 
States now have to travel to States where abortion is legal, 
and it is safe. Because they were having to engage in that 
traveling, I think there has been a deliberate campaign to 
target some of the clinics where abortion care is still 
available.
    Ms. Scanlon. In fact, the case that Mr. Vaughn was involved 
in, although he purports to say that he was simply praying, the 
jury rejected his argument and actually found him and his 
fellow protesters to have been guilty of actually obstructing 
these folks in this clinic for a period of three hours. The 
conspiracy element came from the fact that these folks came 
from all over. It was actually part of an organized effort in 
Tennessee where his incident occurred as well as other places 
around the country. Is that correct?
    Ms. Waters. It is my understanding that people traveled 
from several different jurisdictions and that there was indeed 
a conspiracy charge in this case.
    Ms. Scanlon. We have also heard repeatedly that basically 
there is not any enforcement, or a blind eye being turned. I 
wanted to seek unanimous consent to introduce another DOJ press 
release just from a few months ago, ``Three Defendants Plead 
Guilty to Civil Rights Conspiracy Targeting Pregnancy Resource 
Centers.''
    Mr. Roy. Without objection.
    Ms. Scanlon. OK. Finally, to the extent that our colleagues 
are concerned about excessive use of force, that's something 
that the Members on our side of the aisle have been very 
interested in preventing excessive use of force in a variety of 
contexts. That's certainly not an issue exclusive to the FACE 
Act and perhaps that's something we need to pursue on another 
day. So, with that, I yield back.
    Mr. Roy. I thank the Ranking Member. With that, I will 
recognize the gentleman from California, Mr. McClintock.
    Mr. McClintock. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Professor Waters 
mentioned the cases of violence and vandalism directed at 
abortion clinics that gave rise to the FACE Act, but I think 
she left out all the cases of violence and vandalism that were 
directed at churches and pregnancy centers. That's what 
convinced Congress to make FACE even handed to protect both 
sides of the controversy. Am I correct, Ms. Hawley?
    Ms. Hawley. That's absolutely correct. The plain text of 
the FACE Act applies to pregnancy centers--
    Mr. McClintock. Everybody on both sides. There is no right 
to impede a person's access to abortion clinics, pregnancy 
centers, churches, or any other lawful pursuit. There is no 
right to vandalize those facilities or threaten the people who 
use them. There is every right to peaceably assemble to express 
one's political or religious beliefs.
    So, I have got no problems with the FACE Act on its face so 
to speak. As I read it, it forbids blockading abortion clinics 
and churches. As I read it, it protects the right of 
individuals to peaceably assemble. So, what am I missing here?
    Ms. Hawley. So, I'm afraid that the promise of equal 
application of the FACE Act has really been a false one. As 
Chair Roy discussed, there have been 55 individuals prosecuted.
    Mr. McClintock. OK. So, is that the fault of the act itself 
or is that the fault of the way the act is enforced?
    Ms. Hawley. That specific concern is the fault of the 
enforcement.
    Mr. McClintock. OK. That's what I thought. I heard Mr. 
Nadler say that, well, instead of repealing the FACE Act, and I 
am not the least bit sure that we should, Republicans ought to 
urge the Trump Administration to prioritize enforcement of the 
FACE Act on behalf of prolife activists.
    Well, I find this just as offensive as prioritizing 
enforcement of the FACE Act on behalf of pro-abortion 
activists. Both courses are deeply destructive to the rule-of-
law and to the concept of equal protection of the law. This is 
the reason justice is always depicted as being blindfolded 
because it shouldn't matter what anyone's personal opinions 
are. The laws are to be applied equally to all.
    I hope I misunderstood what the Ranking Member said in his 
prepared remarks because it seems to confirm the complaint that 
this law is susceptible to political abuse. In fact, it sounded 
like he was encouraging us to abuse it, which I find bizarre.
    So, if we are to slant enforcement of the law depending on 
who is in power, it seems to me we have lost the fundamental 
principle of equal justice under law. This problem is not 
limited to the FACE Act. We have seen selective enforcement in 
different treatment between say George Floyd rioters and 
January 6th rioters or the Lois Lerner selected enforcement 
against Tea Party activists a few years ago.
    Should we, perhaps, instead of looking--repealing the FACE 
Act, look at clearly defining what selective enforcement looks 
like and then applying criminal or civil penalties to such 
conduct?
    Ms. Hawley. So, that could be a good first step. I agree 
wholeheartedly that the FACE Act as is every criminal statute 
should be applied even handedly. That is the promise of our 
republic. I would say--
    Mr. McClintock. Because it is being administered with 
people with political biases, that is perhaps not always going 
to happen. It certainly is not happening in this case, but also 
it is not happening in a lot of other cases.
    So, is there some law that you could recommend that would 
define what selective enforcement is, and sanction those who 
apply it in a biased manner?
    Ms. Hawley. That is an interesting question. Selective 
enforcement is typically raised as a constitutional claim 
either under the equal protection clause or the First 
Amendment. So, if you had a Federal selective enforcement claim 
itself, you would have to think how that would play out. I do 
think that the constitutional cases provide a good sort of 
framework of reference.
    What those cases provided that when parties are similarly 
situated, there is prosecutorial discretion. When you have 
similarly situated parties, the law requires that they be 
treated equally.
    Mr. McClintock. Mr. Crampton, very briefly, your thoughts 
on the subject.
    Mr. Crampton. Would you repeat the question, please, sir?
    Mr. McClintock. The question is, since these laws are 
subject to enforcement by individuals who have their own 
biases, is there a law we should be looking at that would 
identify what selective enforcement looks like and sanction it?
    Mr. Crampton. Actually, it is a very difficult area as Ms. 
Hawley mentioned. The selective enforcement case law, the 
precedents, are frankly, not entirely consistent. There is, 
because of the discretion afforded prosecutors across the 
board, a great deal of disagreement as to when that is too far, 
and they've transgressed the constitutional limits. It is 
frankly a matter for the courts, and we do really need more 
clarity in that area. I can't point you to another statute or a 
law that would help.
    Mr. McClintock. Any further thoughts you have on that, I 
would be interested in hearing.
    Mr. Crampton. Thank you.
    Mr. Roy. I thank the gentleman from California. With that, 
I will recognize my friend from Texas, Mr. Hunt.
    Mr. Hunt. Thank you, Chair. Weaponization, two-tier 
justice, prioritization. What do these words have in common? 
They describe the unspoken policy of the Biden Administration 
when it comes to justice. You can apply this unspoken policy to 
any Biden Administration agency.
    Weaponization, Biden weaponized the DOJ to go after a 
former President for political purposes. He said Trump was 
undermining democracy. For two-tiered justice in the classified 
documents case, Biden directed the FBI to raid Mar-a-Lago, yet 
gently browsed the classified documents that were sitting in 
President Biden's garage.
    For prioritization, Biden's FEMA Department in Florida only 
helped storm victims who didn't have Trump signs in their front 
yard. Think about that.
    So, it should come to no surprise that we are talking about 
another example of weaponization, two-tiered justice, and 
prioriti-
zation, in today's hearing.
    We are here today to talk about the DOJ's selective 
enforcement of the FACE Act. It is aimed at assuring equal 
protection for both prolife and prochoice movements. Under the 
Biden Administration, I will let you guess whether more prolife 
or prochoice activists have been charged with more crimes.
    The FACE Act has been the law of the land for the last 20 
years. The Biden's DOJ, in just four years, has brought over a 
quarter of all FACE Act prosecutions. There are many examples, 
but I will highlight an egregious example.
    In Mount Juliet, Tennessee, prolife activists were arrested 
for singing and praying in a hallway of a shared general 
medical office building featuring an abortion clinic.
    They initially were faced with misdemeanor charges. 
Magically, 17 months later, the DOJ charged these Christians 
with Federal crimes. Among these charged was Eva Edl. Now 89 
years old, she is a survivor of a Communist concentration camp 
in Yugoslavia after World War II. That is right. In Biden's 
America, you can escape a Communist concentration camp and then 
come to America and be arrested for praying.
    Mr. Vaughn, thank you for being here today. I am glad that 
you avoided prison time as well, sir. Did you receive three 
years of supervised release. Is that correct?
    Mr. Vaughn. That is correct. After 18 months of 
presentencing supervision.
    Mr. Hunt. Could you have ever imagined living in a country, 
this country, that you would be arrested for praying, singing, 
and providing sidewalk counseling?
    Mr. Vaughn. No.
    Mr. Hunt. We, as a country, should have seen this coming. 
Under the COVID censorship regime that was the Biden 
Administration, they restricted churchgoers from attending 
church but allowed people to shop in liquor stores. I guess 
that's because Tito's and Crown Royal were the cure for COVID. 
Maybe we will never know.
    Mr. Crampton, I have got to tell you something. You can 
probably imagine, sir, I am not a big fan of the KKK. I am a 
direct descendant of slavery, and I am also here to tell you 
that the Klan has been dead for a very long time.
    Why in God's name would you evoke an act like this under 
these circumstances?
    Mr. Crampton. I wish I understood exactly what the logic 
was behind it as far as any legitimate reasoning, sir. What I 
do know is Sanjay Patel authored an article in 2022 for the 
DOJ's own internal kind of a law review magazine where he laid 
out why he suggested they use it. He was the first one to use 
it as the prosecutor in the District of Columbia case. That was 
because it would increase the penalty and because it is easier 
to prove conspiracy. You don't need what is called a predicate 
act under 18 U.S.C. 241, this conspiracy against rights 
statute.
    Moreover, sir, if I may add, the conspiracy against rights 
depends on a Federal right.
    Mr. Hunt. Yes.
    Mr. Vaughn. Traditionally, that was a constitutional right. 
Now, as we know, there is no Federal constitutional right to 
abortion. So, the right they are hanging that on is the very 
slender thread of a right to access reproductive health 
clinics.
    So, it is a mystery, and it is such an unjust and excessive 
punishment, use of that statute, abuse of that statute that as 
I suggested in my opening remarks, it needs to be separately 
addressed.
    Mr. Hunt. Of course it does. Thank you for answering the 
questions, sir.
    The selective prosecution of FACE Act violations is two-
tiered justice at its finest. The Biden Administration Attorney 
General Merrick Garland's prosecution of their political 
opponents is real, and it is pervasive.
    They painted January 6th protesters out to be violent 
criminals, yet President Biden pardoned his son, Hunter Biden, 
and many other actual felons because they were on his side of 
the aisle, period.
    Peaceful January 6th protesters are in jail while violent 
criminals are pardoned and roam free. Thank God, they are going 
to get out of here on January 20th. I can guarantee you that.
    Merrick Garland surveilled parents at school board meetings 
who were simply expressing their right to free speech. Garland, 
however, did nothing about ANTIFA while cities in this country 
were being burned to the ground. Biden has been on the wrong 
side of justice every single time, and we know it. The American 
people know it. We have expressed our sentiments just last 
month. I can assure you we will have justice back in America on 
January 20th.
    Thank you all very much for being here.
    Mr. Roy. I thank the gentleman from Texas, his time having 
expired. I would ask consent--I have been receiving 
correspondence from folks from all over the country asking us 
to repeal the FACE Act and stop what is happening to people 
like Mr. Vaughn and like Ms. Edl. I would ask unanimous consent 
to insert this into the record.
    Without objection, does the gentleman from Ohio seek 
recognition?
    Chair Jordan. I was hoping for five minutes of questions. 
Imagine that. No, I appreciate it.
    Mr. Vaughn, so the day that you were at the--you were 
praying and singing at the clinic, did the local police show 
up?
    Mr. Vaughn. They did.
    Chair Jordan. Were they called by the clinic?
    Mr. Vaughn. They were.
    Chair Jordan. I want to get all the facts right. Maybe you 
did this in your opening statement. I apologize. I had to step 
out a couple of times during the hearing.
    So, you are in front of the abortion clinic. You are 
praying and singing. You were on the public sidewalk.
    Mr. Vaughn. It was a multiuse building. We were in the 
hallways of a public building.
    Chair Jordan. OK.
    Mr. Vaughn. Outside the door of the abortion clinic.
    Chair Jordan. There were other people with you?
    Mr. Vaughn. Correct.
    Chair Jordan. You were charged with conspiring to stop 
people from going into the clinic and their rights as Mr. 
Crampton was just talking about.
    Mr. Vaughn. Correct, yes.
    Chair Jordan. Did you physically push anyone, hold anyone 
back? Did you lock arms with your coconspirators or what did 
you do?
    Mr. Vaughn. No, I did none of that.
    Chair Jordan. None of that.
    Mr. Vaughn. I kneeled and prayed on the side of the hallway 
at one point. Sang hymns when they were singing. I interacted 
with the police department. The local police got a little 
agitated at one point, and they came and shoved a couple 
people. I walked back down the hallway with them and tried to 
assure them that these people were peaceful and keeping peace 
with the police department.
    Chair Jordan. Yes.
    Mr. Vaughn. I ultimately talked with the negotiator and the 
police chief along with another member and led to a peaceful 
resolution. People that wanted to be--
    Chair Jordan. No one was arrested that day?
    Mr. Vaughn. There were eight people arrested.
    Chair Jordan. Were you arrested that day?
    Mr. Vaughn. I was not.
    Chair Jordan. You were not arrested that day.
    Mr. Vaughn. No, sir.
    Chair Jordan. OK. Then what day was that? What day were you 
there at the clinic praying and--
    Mr. Vaughn. That was March 5th.
    Chair Jordan. March 5th of what year?
    Mr. Vaughn. 2022--I'm sorry, of 2021.
    Chair Jordan. 2021.
    Mr. Vaughn. Correct, yes.
    Chair Jordan. Because it is a year later. It just happens 
to be March 5th, again?
    Mr. Vaughn. It is October 5, 2022.
    Chair Jordan. October 5th, excuse me.
    Mr. Vaughn. Yes.
    Chair Jordan. So, a year later--that is right, October 5th. 
So, almost a year later is when the Federal police shows up, 
the FBI shows up at your house?
    Mr. Vaughn. Correct, yes.
    Chair Jordan. In that 11 month timeframe, what kind of 
contact did you have with any law enforcement or any prosecutor 
or anything like that?
    Mr. Vaughn. None.
    Chair Jordan. None?
    Mr. Vaughn. None whatsoever.
    Chair Jordan. So, you weren't arrested that day and other 
people were. You didn't do anything wrong that day. In fact, 
when there was some concern, you tried to de-escalate it.
    Mr. Vaughn. Right.
    Chair Jordan. Nothing happens. Local police said, this Mr. 
Vaughn guy, he's doing the Lord's work, whatever they said. 
They didn't do anything. Then 10 months later, the FBI shows up 
at your door.
    Mr. Vaughn. That's 18 months later, correct? They showed up 
hard and heavy. That day, the police in their media press 
release complimented how peaceful and orderly we were, how we 
interacted with them. The lead detective--I'm sorry, the lead 
negotiator testified for us at Federal trial.
    Chair Jordan. So, the police--
    Mr. Vaughn. We had good relations with the police. It has 
been reported out--if I can, I would love to read just a quick 
summary.
    Chair Jordan. Do you know if the FBI talked to the local 
police prior to them coming to your house and arresting you?
    Mr. Vaughn. They did not. I asked them that question on the 
hour-long ride to Nashville in the back of the car. I asked 
``Did my sheriff know or anybody know?'' and replied ``No, we 
didn't bother telling them.''
    Chair Jordan. They just showed up.
    Mr. Vaughn. They showed up.
    Chair Jordan. If I remember the facts again, it was early 
morning. Show up.
    Mr. Vaughn. 7:15 a.m. in the morning.
    Chair Jordan. You open the door, you and your wife and 
children right there.
    Mr. Vaughn. Correct, yes.
    Chair Jordan. They had some of your kids held off on a 
different part of the property.
    Mr. Vaughn. Right.
    Chair Jordan. OK. Where was the conspiracy? What were you 
conspiring to do? Because I don't see the--I am troubled, as 
the legal professionals Ms. Hawley and Mr. Crampton pointed 
out, I am troubled by this whole conspiracy thing. I don't see 
any conspiracy on your part.
    Mr. Vaughn. No, the conspiracy, I ideologically agreed that 
abortions should stop. I was in the hallway with other people 
that did that.
    Chair Jordan. Were there like emails at the trial where you 
said, ``we are all going to meet at the clinic on this day?'' 
Is that how they demonstrate some concern?
    Mr. Vaughn. There was no evidence like that presented as to 
me. The only thing they showed--that piece of the trial was my 
driver's license. It indicated that I lived an hour from the 
clinic and drove an hour. So, that was the tie to the 
conspiracy.
    Chair Jordan. If the FBI called you said, ``Mr. Vaughn, we 
are going to charge you with this crime. Can you show up and 
meet us at the local FBI office or whatever, Nashville,'' I 
think you said, you would have called your--you would have got 
legal counsel.
    Mr. Vaughn. Absolutely.
    Chair Jordan. You have got Mr. Crampton. You would have 
showed up whatever day they told you, right?
    Mr. Vaughn. Sure. Absolutely.
    Chair Jordan. Instead they came to your house. Yes, it's 
crazy.
    Mr. Crampton, what are traditional Catholics radical?
    Mr. Crampton. Only in the eyes of extremists of the Biden 
Administration.
    Chair Jordan. Yes, only in the eyes of the people who show 
up at 6 a.m. in the morning and arrest a guy when the local 
police, ``wanted to give him a medal.'' Only they are the 
people who are going to say, the pure traditional Catholic, you 
are an extremist. You are a radical.
    Mr. Crampton. I am afraid so.
    Chair Jordan. Ms. Hawley, I got 32 seconds. I feel bad. I 
will give you the last 30 seconds. Anything you want to add to 
the discussion?
    Ms. Hawley. Thank you, Congressman Jordan. One thing I 
would like to mention is that the FACE Act is on top of State 
and local law. So, as the Members of Congress have recognized 
before, this would not allow criminal conduct to go unpunished.
    Every State has trespass laws, has nuisance laws, and has 
those sorts of things that are perfectly capable--
    Chair Jordan. We saw it in the example.
    Ms. Hawley. Exactly. Similarly,--
    Chair Jordan. When they arrested--any of the eight people 
that the local police arrested, Mr. Vaughn, did any of them get 
charged by the FBI? How many of them? All of them?
    Mr. Vaughn. All of them.
    Chair Jordan. All of them. OK.
    Mr. Vaughn. They got double charged.
    Chair Jordan. They got double charged.
    Mr. Vaughn. They got local charges and Federal.
    Chair Jordan. They obviously did something wrong, and you 
didn't.
    Ms. Hawley. Similarly, with Mr. Houck, who I know has 
testified to this Committee, the State and local prosecutors 
declined to prosecute. They made a Federal case out of it. He 
was acquitted by a jury of his peers. An Obama-appointed judge 
noted that this was stretching the FACE Act a little thin.
    Chair Jordan. No kidding. Thank you. Thank all our 
witnesses. I want to thank the Chair for his good work on 
dealing with this piece of legislation.
    Mr. Roy. I thank the Chair, the gentleman from Ohio. I 
thank the witnesses. This concludes today's hearing.
    Without objection, all Members will have five legislative 
days to submit additional written questions for the witnesses 
or additional materials for the record. Without objection, the 
hearing is adjourned.
    [Whereupon, at 4:24 p.m., the Subcommittee was adjourned.]

    All materials submitted for the record by Members of the 
Subcommittee on the Constitution and Limited Government can
be found at: https://docs.house.gov/Committee/Calendar/ByEvent. 
aspx?EventID=117765.