[House Hearing, 118 Congress]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]




                  DIGITAL GI BILL IN DISARRAY: HOLDING
                    THE BIDEN-HARRIS ADMINISTRATION
                      ACCOUNTABLE FOR VA'S COSTLY 
                            MISMANAGEMENT

=======================================================================



                                HEARING

                               before the

                       SUBCOMMITTEE ON ECONOMIC 
                             OPPORTUNITY

                                 of the

                     COMMITTEE ON VETERANS' AFFAIRS

                     U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

                    ONE HUNDRED EIGHTEENTH CONGRESS

                             SECOND SESSION
                               __________

                      THURSDAY, SEPTEMBER 26, 2024
                               __________

                           Serial No. 118-86
                               __________

       Printed for the use of the Committee on Veterans' Affairs



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                    Available via http://govinfo.gov                    
                               ______                                 

                 U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE

57-177                   WASHINGTON : 2026                    
                    
                    
                 





                     COMMITTEE ON VETERANS' AFFAIRS

                     MIKE BOST, Illinois, Chairman

AUMUA AMATA COLEMAN RADEWAGEN,       MARK TAKANO, California, Ranking 
    American Samoa, Vice-Chairwoman      Member
JACK BERGMAN, Michigan               JULIA BROWNLEY, California
NANCY MACE, South Carolina           MIKE LEVIN, California
MATTHEW M. ROSENDALE, SR., Montana   CHRIS PAPPAS, New Hampshire
MARIANNETTE MILLER-MEEKS, Iowa       FRANK J. MRVAN, Indiana
GREGORY F. MURPHY, North Carolina    SHEILA CHERFILUS-MCCORMICK, 
C. SCOTT FRANKLIN, Florida               Florida
DERRICK VAN ORDEN, Wisconsin         CHRISTOPHER R. DELUZIO, 
MORGAN LUTTRELL, Texas                   Pennsylvania
JUAN CISCOMANI, Arizona              MORGAN MCGARVEY, Kentucky
ELIJAH CRANE, Arizona                DELIA C. RAMIREZ, Illinois
KEITH SELF, Texas                    GREG LANDSMAN, Ohio
JENNIFER A. KIGGANS, Virginia        NIKKI BUDZINSKI, Illinois

                       Jon Clark, Staff Director
                  Matt Reel, Democratic Staff Director

                  SUBCOMMITTEE ON ECONOMIC OPPORTUNITY

                 DERRICK VAN ORDEN, Wisconsin, Chairman

NANCY MACE, South Carolina           MIKE LEVIN, California Ranking 
C. SCOTT FRANKLIN, Florida               Member
JUAN CISCOMANI, Arizona              FRANK J. MRVAN, Indiana
ELIJAH CRANE, Arizona                MORGAN MCGARVEY, Kentucky
                                     DELIA C. RAMIREZ, Illinois
                                     
                                     
                                     
                                     
                                     
Pursuant to clause 2(e)(4) of Rule XI of the Rules of the House, public 
hearing records of the Committee on Veterans' Affairs are also 
published in electronic form. The printed hearing record remains the 
official version. Because electronic submissions are used to prepare 
both printed and electronic versions of the hearing record, the process 
of converting between various electronic formats may introduce 
unintentional errors or omissions. Such occurrences are inherent in the 
current publication process and should diminish as the process is 
further refined.








                         C  O  N  T  E  N  T  S

                              ----------                              

                      THURSDAY, SEPTEMBER 26, 2024

                                                                   Page

                           OPENING STATEMENTS

The Honorable Derrick Van Orden, Chairman........................     1
The Honorable Mike Levin, Ranking Member.........................     2

                               WITNESSES
                                Panel I

Mr. Ronald Burke, Under Secretary for Policy and Oversight, 
  Veterans Benefits Administration, U.S. Department of Veterans 
  Affairs........................................................     5

        Accompanied by:

    Mr. Robert Orifici, Executive Directory, Benefits and 
        Memorial Services, Office of Information and Technology, 
        Veterans Benefits Administration, U.S. Department of 
        Veterans Affairs

    Mr. Joseph Garcia, Executive Director, Education Services, 
        Veterans Benefits Administration, U.S. Department of 
        Veterans Affairs

Mr. Nicholas Dahl, Deputy Assistant Inspector General, Management 
  and Administration, Office of the Inspector General, U.S. 
  Department of Veterans Affairs.................................     7

Mr. Justin Parke, Managing Director, DGIB Program Manager, 
  Accenture Federal Services.....................................     9

                                APPENDIX
                    Prepared Statements Of Witnesses

Mr. Ronald Burke Prepared Statement..............................    29
Mr. Nicholas Dahl Prepared Statement.............................    33
Mr. Justin Parke Prepared Statement..............................    42

                       Statements For The Record

The MITRE Corporation Prepared Statement.........................    49








 
                     DIGITAL GI BILL IN DISARRAY: HOLDING
                       THE BIDEN-HARRIS ADMINISTRATION
                         ACCOUNTABLE FOR VA'S COSTLY 
                            MISMANAGEMENT

                              ----------                              


                      THURSDAY, SEPTEMBER 26, 2024

      Subcommittee on Economic Opportunity,
                    Committee on Veterans' Affairs,
                             U.S. House of Representatives,
                                                    Washington, DC.
    The subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 1 p.m., in 
room 360, Cannon House Office Building, Hon. Derrick Van Orden 
(chairman of the subcommittee) presiding.
    Present: Representatives Van Orden, and Levin.
    Also present: Representative Rosendale.

        OPENING STATEMENT OF DERRICK VAN ORDEN, CHAIRMAN

    Mr. Van Orden. Good afternoon. The subcommittee will come 
to order. I want to thank everyone for being here today to 
discuss the Digital GI Bill (DGIB) project. Notice I did not 
say to discuss the fantastic way that this project has been 
completed on time and on budget. That was not in the script. We 
have to approach this in a nonpartisan way, and I am incredibly 
thankful for Mike being here and all the rest of my Democrat 
colleagues for really adhering to that tradition we have here 
in this subcommittee, where we clearly separate politics. This 
is one of the reasons why we have to.
    During the subcommittee's joint hearing with the 
subcommittee on Technology Modernization in July 2023, we 
received an update about the digital GI Bill, and we voiced our 
concerns about how the project has been designed and 
implemented during the Biden Harris administration. Let us be 
super clear, these contracts were signed under the previous 
administration. I would like to repeat my fellow Chairman Matt 
Rosendale's words during his opening statement last July, where 
he said, I believe the concept of the digital GI Bill remains 
sound, but the bureaucracy managing the project is floundering. 
Since then, it is clear that the bureaucracy managing this 
project has negatively impacted the success of the digital GI 
Bill and has cost the taxpayers hundreds of millions of dollars 
and ultimately negatively impacts veterans.
    We are here today because the report issued by the U.S. 
Department of Veterans Affairs (VA) Inspector General (IG) in 
August 28th, 2024, and it confirms many of the fears that were 
expressed on my side. You know what? It is actually our side of 
the aisle about how this project was being managed under the 
current administration. According to the Office of Inspector 
General (OIG), the project was hindered from the outset because 
the Veterans Benefits Administration (VBA) failed to include 
staff who had, this is a direct quote. VBA failed to include 
staff that had required technical expertise to develop 
performance work statements which outlined the necessary steps 
to complete the platform development and therefore drive 
contract requirements further. The OIG specifically mentioned 
that the initial contract requirements were, and I quote, 
unclear or unrealistic. This report highlighted the lack of 
accountability of leadership at the VA and the design flaws 
that will continue to cost the American taxpayer hundreds of 
millions of dollars.
    VA employees working on this project did not have the 
proper expertise to run the program, and the VA failed to 
follow traditional contract implementation guidelines. It is 
just that simple. Many of these same issues have been raised 
and investigated by this committee in previous GI Bill failures 
in 2008, `10, and `18. Frankly, gentlemen, it is embarrassing 
that we have to do this again. It is professionally 
embarrassing, and anybody that has anything to do with this 
project should be personally embarrassed. Those are everybody 
here and the people that decided not to show up. The life cycle 
cost is projected by MITRE, who I will note refused to testify 
today, that is the empty chair next to you. Answer questions 
about their involvement in these issues to be up to $2.7 
billion. That is over a billion dollars more than the estimate 
was given to Congress in 2021. This project, which was 
originally projected to be finished at the end of 2024, will 
not even be done until 2026.
    During today's hearing, VA must be accountable for the 2-
year delay and doubling the cost and explain how they are going 
to get the GI Bill back on track. Student veterans deserve a 
modern system that they can count on. Taxpayers deserve to know 
that their investment is worthwhile, and that is why we are 
here, period. What is amazing to me is that any private 
business or non-government sector of the American economy, if 
this were to take place, they all would have been fired. They 
all would have never been hired again by anybody with any level 
of sanity or business sense or fiscal responsibility or someone 
in this case, who actually cares about the people they say they 
care about. That is the student veterans.
    If civilians were sitting there, they would walk out this 
door and their stuff would be in a cardboard box from their 
desk and they would be fired, and rightfully so. I am really 
looking forward to hearing from the OIG. I had a meeting with 
them for like an hour going through these results because this 
is, on one hand, so incredibly complicated and on the other 
hand, so incredibly easy to figure out what has gone on here 
and what continues to go on at the Veterans Affairs 
Administration. We are just not going to allow this to fail. We 
are not. I would like now to yield to my very good friend and 
Ranking Member Levin for his comments.

        OPENING STATEMENT OF MIKE LEVIN, RANKING MEMBER

    Mr. Levin. I thank my friend, the Chairman and I definitely 
concur. We all want the same thing. We want GI Bill benefits on 
time through the digital GI Bill modernization. It is 
unfortunate that a number of the witnesses could not have 
appear today. I know there were some scheduling conflicts, and 
I think there was one at least that had a family commitment. We 
need to hear from all these folks who could not attend in the 
coming weeks and months. I, too, was very troubled by the 
Inspector General Report. I will say that I was not necessarily 
surprised because we have been getting updates, you know, 
regularly every month from education service. It has been a 
common practice since COVID to get those updates and those 
meetings. Those updates were necessary because of the 
implementation issues that we have had with the forever GI Bill 
for some time, and that goes back to the implementation 
contract with Booz Allen from a number of years ago. I will 
tell you that this is. I have props today. I am very excited. 
Usually, they do not let me have props. This is good.
    Mr. Van Orden. We are excited.
    Mr. Levin. We are excited about----wait until you see what 
I am going to show you in a second. Shortly after I was first 
sworn into Congress and entrusted with the gavel of the 
subcommittee in 2019, I traveled to Muscogee, Oklahoma, to see 
firsthand the outdated duct taped together systems that 
education services was relying on to administer the digital GI 
Bill. This was more than 6 years ago. The photo behind me, it 
was very clear that VBA's (IT) Information Technology 
infrastructure had been underfunded and left with Band Aid 
fixes for 50 years. Frankly, it was a mess. It was just, it was 
a mess.
    I took time to kind of go off script. I told the VA folks 
there I wanted to go speak with the employees of the call 
center. They have this converted grocery store out there in the 
middle of Muskogee that is a big call center. I wanted to 
understand, you know, what was happening with those call center 
employees. It was truly incredible that anybody got anything 
done at all. They were cobbling together several different 
software systems. Some were relying on Common Business-Oriented 
Language (COBOL). Some were trying to patch together Microsoft 
Windows. They were printing their own stuff on Microsoft Word. 
It was crazy. It was just crazy. We spent the day with 
President Trump's undersecretary of benefits, Dr. Paul 
Lawrence. Really nice, man and we learned what the digital GI 
Bill would mean for the agency and what it would mean for 
veterans and why it absolutely needs to happen.
    Before we departed, we did what you do in Muscogee, 
Oklahoma. Where is the next slide? Okay, this is the important 
one there. Right there. We got some excellent barbecue. Stay 
with me. There is a method to my madness here. I sat there with 
a triple meat platter of pulled pork, brisket, and jalapeno 
cheddar sausage with this guy here. Thank you, Justin. I had a 
chance to reflect as I was sitting there eating the barbecue. 
Good barbecue takes a good chef, takes a good recipe, takes 
quality ingredients, and takes time, patience, and attention to 
detail. You cannot rush perfect barbecue. Forgive my dad joke, 
Mr. Chairman, but I fear today that we could risk pulling the 
meat from the smoker too soon. I think we all can agree that 
the digital GI Bill project has had some big problems, some 
major problems due to poor planning. The original scope was too 
small, partially because we in Congress initially only provided 
$30 million to conduct the modernization. It is before I got 
there, so not my fault.
    We cannot ignore the fact that IT had been left to languish 
under all the administrations in the three to five decades 
prior, putting band aids over problems and slapping more 
systems on top of the benefits delivery network, also known as 
BDN, to mitigate problems in 2018. The VA press secretary, who 
is named Curt Cashour, he said the law requires a 50-year-old 
IT platform that was designed to do the equivalent of basic 
math to instead perform something akin to calculus in short 
order. That is what he said in 2018. The March 2021 contract 
that was developed originally was scoped only to replace some 
of the systems on the list. It has become more and more evident 
that most or all of these must be replaced for the digital GI 
Bill to work and to make that happen, VA has had to rescope and 
modify the contract.
    In reading the OIG's report, it is very apparent poor 
communication, poor contract management have caused roadblocks. 
What I hope to learn today is how we ensure that the lessons 
that we should be learning do not keep repeating themselves 
right. We cannot keep doing, you know, not learning from our 
past mistakes, expecting any better. We have got to get this 
right. Why is it so important that we get this right? The 
systems that we are here to talk about today serve over 850,000 
beneficiaries a year. They pay out nearly $11 billion to 
veterans and their families. Discontinuing these systems too 
early would put benefit payments at risk. They often provide 
the main or only income for veterans and their families 
attending school. I could go on and on, but the bottom line is 
trying to modernize and replace these systems is very much like 
swapping out parts of a jumbo jet while it is in flight. I get 
that, at least with the jumbo jet most irregularly serviced and 
upgraded while not actively flying.
    Look, I just want to make sure that above all the politics, 
above all the back and forth, you guys got to fix this. We 
cannot keep doing the same thing over and over and expecting a 
different result. I look forward to hearing how you are going 
to do that today. As the Chairman said, it is truly 
nonpartisan. By the way, I invite the Chairman to, and Matt, 
you come to Muskogee. They have great barbecue, and we can have 
a whole day out of it. We can see the patchwork system that we 
are trying to, you know, have the GI Bill operate under, and 
how it is completely ineffective, unacceptable. We have got to 
work together to fix it. I will yield back.
    Mr. Van Orden. Thank you, Raking Member Levin. If you see 
me in the profile, you will realize that I will not turn down 
good food. Yes, that was a fat joke. In accordance to committee 
Rule 5 Echo, I asked unanimous consent that Representative 
Rosendale from Montana be permitted to participate in today's 
subcommittee hearing. Hearing no objection. We will proceed. 
Welcome aboard, sir.
    I spoke to Mike previously, and we have agreed to give the 
OIG 10 minutes to testify in a row. As I said earlier, this is 
an incredibly complicated issue, and it has to be followed 
temporally. If we were to break it up into sections and 
question and answer, I think we will lose the grand vision. I 
spoke to the cats about that previously. They were prepared to 
do so, and Ranking Member Levin also agreed to it. I would like 
to introduce the witness panel. Our first witness is Dr. Burke, 
Deputy Undersecretary for Policy and Oversight at the Veterans 
Benefits Administration. Mr. Burke is accompanied by Mr. Joseph 
Garcia. Nice to see you again, Mr. Garcia, Executive Director 
of Education Services at the Veterans Benefit Administration, 
and Mr. Robert Orifici. Right, Orifici.
    Mr. Orifici. Orifici.
    Mr. Van Orden. Orifici. Yes, sorry, man. I did that last 
time, too. Orifici. Sorry, man. That is on me. Benefits and 
Memorial Service Portfolio Director at the Office of 
Information and Technology (OIT). Our second witness is doctor 
or, excuse me, Mr. Nicholas Dahl, Deputy Assistant Inspector 
General for Management and Administration at the Department of 
Veterans Affairs OIG. Our third witness is Mr. Justin Parke, 
Managing Director of Accenture Federal Services (AFS).
    Will all the witnesses please stand and raise your right 
hand? Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to 
provide is the truth, the whole truth, nothing but the truth? 
Thank you. Let the record reflect that the witnesses have 
answered in the affirmative. Please take your seats.
    [Witnesses sworn.]
    Mr. Van Orden. Mr. Burke, you are now recognized for 5 
minutes to deliver your testimony on behalf of the Department 
of Veterans Affairs.

                   STATEMENT OF RONALD BURKE

    Mr. Burke. Chairman Van Orden, Ranking Member Levin, and 
other members of the subcommittee, thank you for the 
opportunity to appear before you today to discuss the VA 
digital GI Bill program and VA's continued information 
technology system improvements. Accompanying me is Joseph 
Garcia, Executive Director of Education Service, and Robert 
Orifici, Executive Director of VA's Office of Information and 
Technology Benefits and Memorial Services.
    VA started its digital GI Bill modernization journey in 
2021 to enhance service to VA's customers and equip them with 
the tools and resources necessary to achieve academic and 
career goals. The new platform streamlines education benefits 
delivery and has increased timeliness through automation. Since 
implementation of the DGIB platform, automation of original 
claims through Fiscal Year 2024 has grown from 0 percent to 32 
percent and supplemental claims from 39 percent to 64 percent. 
Since our last hearing in July 2023, VA has accomplished quite 
a bit. The time it takes to decide an original claim decreased 
from 28 days to 10 days, and supplemental claims time has 
dropped from 14 days to 4 days. A recent example of this faster 
timeliness is active-duty service member Carson, who submitted 
his original claim for education benefits. The application 
process was streamlined now including prefilled service history 
information. After completing a few questions, Carson submitted 
his GI Bill application through the new automated platform and 
within 15 minutes received his digital certificate of 
eligibility, a process which used to take several weeks. His 
spouse expressed gratitude for VA's quick decision and what it 
means for their growing family's future.
    The DGIB platform also reduces security risk for customers 
while providing a smoother Chapter 33 claims processing 
experience for veteran claims examiners. By integrating claims 
processing to a single platform for the first time, VA is able 
to synchronize data across platforms. VA has made improvements 
to its DGI program governance, leading to its improved customer 
experience for the school serving firing officials. In March 
2023, enrollment manager launched replacing a dated legacy 
system, and since then, VA has successfully processed nearly 8 
million enrollments using the modernized system. In July 2024, 
VA successfully transitioned payment processing on schedule to 
the empower payment platform. This transition release six moved 
87 percent of total payments processing from the benefits 
delivery network legacy platform, marking the accomplishment of 
a major milestone in decommissioning the 50 plus year old BDN 
platform. Working with our partners at AFS, release seven will 
further streamline the claims processing experience by 
introducing the benefits manager application.
    Benefits Manager is the first of a series of processing and 
workload management features planned for releases eight, nine, 
and ten that will permanently optimize the claims processing 
workflow. The highest priority for DGIB is improving the 
veteran experience. VA uses veteran signal surveys to measure 
customer satisfaction through various phases of educational 
pursuit. Based on survey results, the overall trust score has 
improved by 12.96 percent from Fiscal Year 2022 to Fiscal Year 
2024. Although I have highlighted many improvements to the 
digital GI Bill modernization effort made over the past 3 
years, I would be remiss if I did not acknowledge the challenge 
and lessons learned. The OIG's recent report highlighted 
several issues and recommendations which we are leveraging for 
continuous improvement.
    In addition to their recommendations, OIG identified 
increased costs associated with the DGIB contract. VA 
acknowledges the true complexity of the modernization vision 
was not apparent at the start of the original contract 
developed in 2020. The VA technology and data environment has 
evolved rapidly since then, and VA has made the course 
corrections necessary to meet modernization objectives. VA will 
continue to review and update the master planning schedule 
through an effective governance review, but we will not take 
our foot off the gas.
    Mr. Chairman, I acknowledge the challenges we have 
experienced in implementing DGIB. I believe we are now on the 
right path to improve education benefits for veterans and their 
families. VA welcomes the feedback from all stakeholders, 
including OIG, and appreciates the continuous support of 
Congress. This concludes my testimony. My colleagues and I look 
forward to responding to any questions you or other members of 
the subcommittee may have.

    [The Prepared Statement Of Ronald Burke Appears In The 
Appendix]

    Mr. Van Orden. Thank you, Mr. Burke. Your written testimony 
will be entered into the hearing record. By the way, it is good 
to see you guys too. Mr. Orifici, I am sorry for doing that 
twice. Mr. Dahl, you are now recognized for 10 minutes to 
deliver your testimony on behalf of the Inspector General.

                   STATEMENT OF NICHOLAS DAHL

    Mr. Dahl. Thank you Chairman Van Orden, Ranking Member 
Levin, and Congressman Rosendale, thank you for the opportunity 
to discuss the OIG's oversight of VBA's implementation of the 
Digital GI Bill platform. VA began modernizing its GI Bill 
operations and systems in March 2021 to a digital platform in 
order to improve the processing and delivery of educational 
benefits to hundreds of thousands of veterans and other 
beneficiaries.
    This is just one of many significant IT systems critical to 
VA operations that the OIG has conducted oversight work on.
    OIG personnel have been proactively overseeing VA system 
modernization efforts related to financial and acquisition 
management, electronic health records, and benefits automation. 
However, similar to what we have testified on and reported in 
the past, the Digital GI Bill platform effort was impacted by 
poor planning, missteps in implementation, and cost overruns.
    VBA is not projecting to fully implement the platform until 
July 2026, which is 27 months after the original planned 
implementation date. VBA's insufficient planning led to 
unrealistic developer contract requirements and terms, 
resulting in several contract modifications. The original 
contract was valued at $453 million. Then, a 2022 modification 
added $54 million. A December 2023 renegotiated contract added 
another $425 million, bringing the total estimated cost to $932 
million. The IG is concerned that weaknesses in contract 
management continue to risk further delays and cost 
escalations.
    VBA missed its target for full operability, largely due to 
the rushed contract planning and a lack of IT expertise 
involved early on, leading to unclear and unrealistic 
requirements. VBA hastily awarded the contract to use 
Coronavirus Aid, Relief, and Economic Security (CARES) Act 
funding before it expired. Sufficiently trained and experienced 
technical experts could have helped to plan the contract and 
develop the requirements. As of May 2023, VBA had made numerous 
contract modifications and revisions, contributing to 
significant delays.
    One of the core contract planning deficiencies was VA's 
failure to account for the time and resources needed to 
establish three test environments by October 2022. The 
contractor was depending on the availability of these 
environments to conduct multiple, overlapping tests that would 
improve the chance of meeting contract deadlines. However, an 
Office of Information and Technology leader told the OIG team 
that they informed the contractor they did not have the 
funding, resources, or infrastructure to provide more than one 
test environment.
    More than a year after the initial due date, the single 
testing environment was available for the contractor's use. The 
OIG acknowledges that, in response, the renegotiated contract 
terms in December 2023 only require VA to provide one testing 
environment.
    To fully implement the Digital GI Bill platform, VBA must 
address challenges associated with integrating numerous IT 
systems and decommissioning 12 legacy systems. Much of the 
decommissioning effort focuses on the Benefits Delivery 
Network, or BDN. However, four of its systems cannot be taken 
offline until the BDN replacement is complete and the Digital 
GI Bill platform is fully functional as envisioned. While some 
legacy systems have been decommissioned or consolidated, 
including the Long-Term Solution, which was the predecessor to 
the Digital GI Bill platform, others are still in use. VBA's 
education service had wanted all BDN functions merged into the 
Digital GI Bill platform by September 2023, but the service did 
not have control over external stakeholders responsible for 
decommissioning BDN, which may now not occur until as late as 
spring 2025. This will add costs and delays in the platform's 
full implementation.
    While the contractor and OIT have made progress on 
decommissioning legacy systems, significant work remains.
    The OIG also found that until February 2023, VBA lacked an 
overall integrated master schedule that tracked adjacent and 
parallel efforts, some of which affect the Digital GI Bill 
platform timeline directly. The schedule being used did not 
consider all external dependencies, including modern current 
modernization efforts by VBA, that involve decommissioning 
other IT systems. The integrated master schedule was also not 
consistently shared with the platform's contractor. The process 
and communication challenges made it more difficult to identify 
dropped or incomplete tasks, also contributing to delays and 
higher costs.
    According to the U.S. Government Accountability Office's 
(GAO) Schedule Assessment Guide, VBA should update its overall 
schedule regularly, providing a realistic forecast of start and 
completion dates for all related activities, and then 
consistently share updates with all applicable parties. In 
April 2024, OIT informed the audit team that the integrated 
master schedule now combines stakeholder activities across the 
program for a holistic view of each product increment. These 
efforts will be evaluated during the OIG's routine follow-up 
and recommendation implementation.
    A fully implemented Digital GI Bill platform should allow 
faster decision-making and decrease manual work by education 
service staff. It is concerning, however, that the identified 
contract planning and management deficiencies are similar to 
those identified in other VA IT modernization projects.
    While VBA has renegotiated the contract's terms and some of 
the platform's functionalities have been implemented, there is 
still a long path to full development. Success hinges on 
stronger contract management by VBA going forward and close 
monitoring of the complex decommissioning efforts of other 
related IT systems. The OIG will continue its oversight of 
these efforts.
    Mr. Chairman, this concludes my statement. I would be happy 
to answer any questions you or other members of the 
subcommittee may have.

    [The Prepared Statement Of Nicholas Dahl Appears In The 
Appendix]

    Mr. Van Orden. Thank you, Mr. Dahl. Your written testimony 
will be entered into the hearing record. Quick question, do you 
have any people in Wisconsin?
    Mr. Dahl. Do we have any employees in Wisconsin?
    Mr. Van Orden. No. You Dahl, it is a very common name for.
    Mr. Dahl. Well, no, I know a lot of Norwegians are from 
that part of the country, but none that I am aware of.
    Mr. Van Orden. Okay, there is a ton. A lot of them are my 
friends. Great, great business people. Mr. Parke, you are now 
recognized for 5 minutes to deliver your testimony on behalf of 
the Accenture Federal Services.

                   STATEMENT OF JUSTIN PARKE

    Mr. Parke. Chairman Van Orden, members of the subcommittee 
on Economic Opportunity, thank you for inviting me to testify 
today at today's hearing. I am Justin Parke, a Managing 
Director at Accenture Federal Services and a member of the 
Accenture Federal leadership team. I am also the program 
manager of our digital GI Bill engagement, leading the 
implementation and operations of Accenture Federal DGIB 
systems. I am honored to be here today and to serve veterans 
and their families in my role on the DGIB program. For 80 
years, the GI Bill has been one of the most impactful economic 
programs ever created. In just 3 years, DGIB has transformed 
how beneficiaries and stakeholders engage with education 
benefits.
    We understand the massive importance of our mission to make 
it easier for veterans to access and reliably receive the 
benefits they have earned. Since the competitive contract award 
in March 2021, Accenture Federal has supported VA's DGIB 
efforts to deliver benefits faster, easier, and more accurately 
while addressing decades of VA legacy system technical debt. To 
highlight just a few of the many outcomes already delivered, to 
date, DGIB has processed over 11 million claims, delivering 
more than $28 billion in veteran benefits to 1.5 million unique 
beneficiaries. With 99.99 percent uptime, DGIB ensures that 
veterans can reliably access and receive their benefits. We 
have accomplished rapid implementation of legislative mandates 
like Isakson Roe expanding eligibility to the GI Bill students. 
We enabled 14,000 veterans to use the innovative Veteran 
Employment Through Technology Education Courses (VET TEC) 
program to pursue high tech careers. We created enrollment 
manager, which streamlined the work of 18,000 school certifying 
officials, making it easier for veterans to get education. For 
the first time in GI Bill's 80-year history, we reduced the 
time it takes veterans to apply and to receive benefit 
eligibility decisions from weeks and days to mere minutes with 
automation.
    We are proud to say that, since the hearing before the 
subcommittee last July, we deployed 19 significant enhancement 
releases, including major release six, on the committed 
schedule. Release six made 87 percent of veteran claims and 
payments more accurate and more secure by integrating DGIB with 
Enterprise Management of Payment Workflow and Reports (eMPWR) 
and shifting that workload off the BDN mainframe. As a direct 
result of the new chapter 33 controls and integrations, monthly 
housing allowance payment processing is faster, more reliable, 
and 99.99 percent accurate. This is a significant achievement 
as VA made multiple attempts over several decades to replace 
the 50-year-old BDN mainframe. These repeated attempts 
underscore how challenging and complex it is for VA to define 
the requirements. Not only that, but VA must also contend with 
competing and emerging agency wide priorities.
    As with any large IT implementation, additional 
requirements may be generated as stakeholders identify business 
and technical needs or as external constraints arise. This is 
what happened here. Additional requirements expanded the scope 
from the original contract and conflicting agency wide 
priorities delayed implementation. This drove a cost increase. 
As a result of these changes, and per VA change control and 
contract processes, last year, an updated DGIB contract 
reestablished the path forward to continue meeting VA 
priorities and serving veterans. Throughout, we have remained 
focused on delivering value and outcomes for veterans. We have 
already completed release seven development and VA user 
acceptance testing has begun. We are on track for release eight 
development and BDN legacy data migration. By November 2025, 
the remaining 13 percent of BDN education claims processing and 
historical data will be in DGIB with integration to VA eMPWR 
for payment. This will enable VA to retire BDN.
    With this contract, VA selected an innovative strategy to 
enhance the veteran education benefits experience as quickly as 
possible. In partnership with VA, we have done that. We are 
committed to delivering benefits to veterans faster, easier, 
more reliably and accurately. Together with VA, we are 
establishing the education services that veterans and their 
families deserve. Thank you.

    [The Prepared Statement Of Justin Parke Appears In The 
Appendix]

    Mr. Van Orden. The gentleman yields back. Mr. Parke, your 
written statement will be entered into the record. The Chair 
now recognizes Mr. Peters, PhD from MITRE, to deliver 5 minutes 
of testimony of how they screwed up this entire thing to begin 
with. Yes, I hope they watch it on television. I now recognize 
Ranking Member Levin for 5 minutes to question any witnesses.
    Mr. Levin. Thank you, Chairman. Mr. Burke, I will start 
with you. It is beyond concerning that the digital GI Bill IT 
modernization contract was delayed and increased in costs. I 
will make sure I got this right. You said $453 million, then 
another $54 million, then another $425 million, for a total of 
$932 million. I think I got that right. I do not think anybody 
would consider that acceptable. I saw the old systems firsthand 
in Muskogee. I saw Microsoft Disk Operating System (MS DOS) 
prompts that VA employees were using 1970's era systems that VA 
had to hire people out of retirement to understand how to use. 
I saw the delays that this caused in getting student veterans 
their housing allowance, and even simple stuff like change of 
address. I mean, it was just remarkable any of it was working 
at all. Mr. Burke, can you lay down a little history for us? 
How many systems touched GI Bill benefits processing before 
modernization in 2018?
    Mr. Burke. Yes, sir. Before modernization, up to 16 
different systems were being used.
    Mr. Levin. How many have been updated or replaced since 
2018?
    Mr. Burke. We have replaced two. We are working on 
replacing the third, and then we have plans to replace three 
more by the time the modernization effort is over.
    Mr. Levin. How many does that leave?
    Mr. Burke. That leaves 10.
    Mr. Levin. Okay, how many do you----so you plan to update 
or replace under the current contract, six? 10 still out there. 
What was the original Booz Allen contract supposed to replace 
in 2018? What happened with that contract?
    Mr. Burke. The initial contract was initially put in place 
to replace BDN. Then the Colmery Act was passed, and the focus 
was kind of shifted to implementing Colmery. That was a failed 
effort, and so at that point, the undersecretary for benefits 
at that time moved into a completely different direction. That 
is when we started to partner with AFS.
    Mr. Levin. What was the plan in 2020? We passed the CARES 
Act toward the end of the Trump administration. Then in 2021. I 
know that, you know, the IG obviously said there were, there 
were some rushed judgments that were made, but could you expand 
on what you were looking to update with the money from the 
CARES Act?
    Mr. Burke. Yes, sir. The intent of using the Cares act was 
to actually kickstart the DGIB modernization efforts.
    Mr. Levin. Do you agree with the characterization that 
there was a rush to judgment with use of those funds?
    Mr. Burke. I do. Yes, sir.
    Mr. Levin. I appreciate that. I understand that the 
original Digital GI Bill, Request for Proposal (RFP) was 
released on the VA Transformation Twenty-One Total Technology 
Next Generation. What an acronym. T4NG contract on December 30, 
2020. Under the prior administration, OIG report states that, 
quote, original contract requirements were unclear and included 
unrealistic expectations, which resulted in development and 
implementation delays for the digital GI Bill platform. Mr. 
Burke, does VA agree with OIG on this?
    Mr. Burke. Yes, sir. We do agree that the original contract 
was unclear and included unrealistic expectations. In fact, the 
first contract, I think, had somewhere near 153 requirements, 
whereas the new contract has nearly 600. It was very complex, 
and some of the fidelity of those requirements in the initial 
contract were not there.
    Mr. Levin. You believe all those original contract issues 
have been adequately addressed?
    Mr. Burke. Yes, sir, I do.
    Mr. Levin. What would be the consequences for veterans and 
beneficiaries if these updates that you are discussing are not 
carried out? Can you speak specifically to things like errors 
or delays in payments, or anything else you would like to 
highlight?
    Mr. Burke. Yes, sir. I would say that had these efforts not 
been carried out, or if we do not continue to carry these out, 
that we will not experience any improvement in the trust scores 
that we have with the very important folks that we are here to 
serve, we would not experience any improvements in accuracy, 
nor would we see any improvement in the timeliness of our 
delivery of benefits. These current actions, the actions that 
we are undertaking now will improve benefits delivery 
satisfaction scores but will also allow us to better utilize 
our human resources and not dedicate manual efforts to things 
that will be replaced by or supplemented by automated efforts.
    Mr. Levin. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I have got lots more 
questions, so I will hold for now, and we will----
    Mr. Van Orden. The gentleman yields back. We will be doing 
a second round of questions, and we are staying here until we 
get some real answers. The Chair now recognizes my friend from 
the great State of Montana, Mr. Rosendale, for 5 minutes.
    Mr. Rosendale. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. Mr. 
Chairman, I really appreciate you including me in the hearing 
today, and representative Levin. $945 million buys a lot of 
barbecue, my friend. Mr. Parke, how much has Accenture been 
paid through digital GI Bills so far?
    Mr. Parke. To date, we have been paid $489 million.
    Mr. Rosendale. $489 million. Mr. Parke, what is the total 
value of Accenture's two contracts for the digital GI Bill, 
including all years and optional tasks?
    Mr. Parke. It is $989 million.
    Mr. Rosendale. Almost a billion dollars. Does that include, 
what have you included in the contract? I would imagine if 
there are any change orders, is there any additional language 
in the contract that says this is all encompassing? If there is 
additional work to be performed that is outside of this 
contract, then it will be this other price list will be 
applied.
    Mr. Parke. There is a component of the contract that 
provides for additional scope, as needed, under an agile 
capacity construct.
    Mr. Rosendale. Okay, so change orders. Any kind of 
additional work that is outside of the contract. You have a 
price list which is attached to the contract that says this is 
how we will be compensated if it is for any additional work 
that is not described in the contract, correct?
    Mr. Parke. Correct.
    Mr. Rosendale. Okay, so we may not be at 989, almost a 
billion dollars. We very easily could exceed that. If there is 
additional work that is required by the VA.
    Mr. Parke. In the 989 million, there is a portion already 
provided for an optional set of tasks meant to account for the 
scenario you just described.
    Mr. Rosendale. However, any work that is not described and 
included in that contract, we have a price list which includes. 
Which would be in excess of the 989.
    Mr. Parke. If the scope and schedule is as described right 
now----
    Mr. Rosendale. Outside of the contract, any work that is 
being completed outside of the description in that contract 
would be in excess of the 989. You have a price list attached 
to cover that, correct?
    Mr. Parke. Correct.
    Mr. Rosendale. Okay, Mr. Parke, when your colleague Colin 
Mitchell testified on July of last year, we had a lengthy 
discussion about contract dependencies, meaning things VA 
promised to do or make available to Accenture that Accenture's 
pricing was based on. Are you familiar with those dependencies?
    Mr. Parke. Yes.
    Mr. Rosendale. Okay, Mr. Parke, did the VA's failure to 
make good on the dependencies lead to the price increases on 
your contract?
    Mr. Parke. That is a component of the increase of cost, 
yes. As well as additional scope.
    Mr. Rosendale. Okay, once I heard referred, Dr. Burke is 
Dr. Burke?
    Mr. Burke. It is not.
    Mr. Rosendale. It is not.
    Mr. Burke. It is not.
    Mr. Rosendale. Okay, so, Mr. Burke, same question. Are the 
dependencies the reason VA agreed to significant price 
increases, including the new, more expensive contract?
    Mr. Burke. I say it was a part of it, but certainly there 
were lack of requirements, additional scope that also 
influenced the cost.
    Mr. Rosendale. Okay, Mr. Parke, have Accenture and VA 
completely resolved the dependencies, or some of them still 
uncertain or being disputed, potentially leading to more 
contract price increases?
    Mr. Parke. We have mapped all of the dependencies in the 
contract. As we sit here today, there are no discrepancies in 
the understanding of dependencies. What remains is simply 
executing against that plan.
    Mr. Rosendale. Okay, so, Mr. Parke, if the digital GI Bill 
project encounters more delays, or additional work becomes 
necessary that is not currently included. In your contracts 
will Accenture commit to finishing the project at cost without 
the profit for more change orders?
    Mr. Parke. The contract, as any contract, describes a 
scope, schedule, and dependencies. If we can execute 
collectively, and I have confidence in this VA team, that we 
will do that----
    Mr. Rosendale. Okay, so that is a no. You are going to get 
your change orders. You are going to be compensated for your 
change orders. Now that I am down to my remaining 40 seconds, 
what I would like to say is this is the problem that we run 
into with virtually every single software company that has come 
before me. I cannot pin down whether all the responsibility 
lies on the VA for not properly describing what they need or 
the software companies or the vendors that hold themselves out 
as the experts. You are the experts in the field. We cannot 
hire experts within every agency and government to oversee the 
vendors that we are hiring. That is what your job is.
    When a request comes out that describes work that needs to 
be done, if you were holding yourself up as the expert in the 
field, you should define and discuss what needs to be included 
to perform that task. If you are not, you are either 
incompetent or dishonest. If somebody on this committee goes 
and purchases an automobile and then takes it home and 
discovers that it does not have blinkers and it does not have a 
horn and it does not have the devices that are necessary, 
windshield wipers, so that you can properly operate it on the 
road, if they disclosed that, and the price was reflective of 
that before you left the showroom, then that is on the 
consumer. If you did not and the consumer comes back and says, 
I paid full price for this vehicle and yet it does not have all 
of these components that are necessary for me to function, then 
that dealer is dishonest. That is how I look at every one of 
these programs.
    What you do is you end up being compensated to complete 
tasks that were never described that you should have if you did 
not, that you should have identified that were necessary to be 
included in that software program. The whole while that you are 
experimenting to develop this, our veterans are being treated 
as guinea pigs in the process. It is deeply disturbing to me 
because you are getting your profit, you are getting your 
salary, and our veterans and their families are suffering and 
it is wrong. I cannot tell whether more of the responsibility 
lies on you, Mr. Burke, for allowing this to happen and not 
better describing what we need or you, Mr. Parke, because of 
trying to increase your profits, securing a deal with money 
that was available at the time. Easy money was available at the 
time, knowing full well that that contract was not going to 
increase a little bit. It is more than doubled. It is almost a 
billion dollars. I will guarantee you, before this committee 
comes back and convenes again, it will be over a billion 
dollars. That is completely unacceptable. It is completely 
unacceptable. Mr. Dahl, I appreciate all the work that the OIG 
has done to help us try to uncover that with that Mr. Chair, I 
yield back. I again, thank you for including me.
    Mr. Van Orden. You are welcome. The gentleman yields back. 
We are going to do a second round. All right. I just. Sorry I 
did not want to interrupt you, but you are on this galactic 
role. I mean, it was. I was even doing some little tapping over 
here, and he almost grabbed you. Thanks for coming by, man. You 
are always welcome here. Yep. Take care. The Chair, now I now 
recognize myself for 5 minutes. Mr. Burke, you said that Mr. 
Parke has been paid how much money? $400.
    Mr. Burke. 480 plus million at this point.
    Mr. Van Orden. Mr. Peters, PhD from MITRE. How much money 
did you receive to help plan this project? Okay, I guess I will 
have to ask you, Mr. Burke. How much money did the Veterans 
Affairs Administration give to MITRE to help plan this?
    Mr. Burke. Mr. Chairman, that number, I do not know. I will 
have to get. I will bring that back.
    Mr. Van Orden. Hold on a second. What exactly was Dr. 
Peters or Mr. Peters? Yes, PhD, I guess. What was their play in 
this whole thing?
    Mr. Burke. I will say we have had a great partnership with 
all of our partners, whether it be AFS, MTIRE. MITRE is doing 
significant work on the lifecycle cost efforts.
    Mr. Van Orden. Mr. Burke, I am going to be really direct. I 
am telling you, I am not leaving this committee room. If you 
want to do that all day, I will do that all day. Okay. What? By 
the way, I would have a fantastic working relationship with you 
too, if you gave me $450 million. Let us just put that out. 
What exactly specifically was MITRE supposed to do at the 
inception of this project?
    Mr. Burke. I will start my answer again. We have got 
fantastic partnerships with all of our partners, MITRE 
included. MITRE has done significant work for us on the 
lifecycle cost estimate. I was not around at the beginning of 
this project, so I am not sure exactly what was expected at the 
beginning that was under prior leadership. If you are looking 
for accountability. I am right here, and I am holding our 
partners accountable through executive steering committees 
setting expectations. I was a part of the renegotiation of the 
contract that more clearly laid out expectations. We hold folks 
accountable to those milestones and those deadlines.
    Mr. Van Orden. Did I just hear correctly that you are 
accepting full responsibility for the additional $450 million 
that it is going to take to get this done? What did that sound 
like?
    Mr. Burke. Let me elaborate on my answer with all things 
VBA. The undersecretary for benefits is responsible for VBA. 
With respect to the effective modernization efforts for DGIB. I 
was designated about 3 years ago, two and a half years ago as 
the accountable official. I take full accountability for what I 
will say is the success of this project. I do not take credit 
for the success, but I am accountable for the modernization 
efforts.
    Mr. Van Orden. Thank you. Mr. Orifici, you were there. What 
happened? What were they supposed to be doing?
    Mr. Orifici. MITRE was brought on board to help us with the 
planning of the acquisition for digital GI Bill life cycle cost 
assessment and program management support.
    Mr. Van Orden. Okay, so how I read this and sitting with 
the OIG is that, and Mr. Burke, you said VA poor planning. The 
VA is not a person. I have had these discussions with you guys 
in different parts of the VA frequently. The VA's not a person. 
Dr. Peters is a person. He is not here. Mr. Orifici, is a 
person. He was here from the beginning. Mr. Burke picked it up 
as he was going along. Who exactly did the planning? That as 
pointed out very clearly in the OIG report by Mr. Dahl and his 
colleagues, who was responsible for the planning? Like who was 
that? The VA did not plan it. People at the VA planned it. Who 
are those people and why are they still employed? Who are they? 
Anybody?
    Mr. Burke. I will take that. Mr. Chairman. The individuals 
that were involved in the initial planning for these efforts 
are no longer with the organization through various means. I 
will say that the folks that are involved in the digital GI 
Bill modernization efforts now are committed to the people that 
we are intended to serve. We have also had six majorly 
successful releases and numerous minor releases. The digital GI 
Bill modernization. While it had.
    Mr. Van Orden. Wait, Mr. Burke.
    Mr. Burke. We are aware of the job.
    Mr. Van Orden. Mr. Burke, so I hear what you are saying and 
I do not appreciate it. I know that this, Mr. Levin hold up one 
thing. This is signed under the previous administration. I know 
some of the people you are talking about were political 
appointees from the previous administration, but not all of 
them. They just, they were not. When we keep saying this, I am 
aware of this problem, aware of that, and you are obfuscating 
at this point, so my time has expired. We are doing a second 
round of questioning. A third and a fourth and a 15th if we 
need to. I would now like to yield to Ranking Member Levin for 
5 minutes, or you know what? I am going to yield to you for as 
much time as you consume, sir.
    Mr. Levin. Amazing. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I will not 
take up that much. I want to go back to the $932 million 
figure, which it is a pretty stunning figure. I want to seek 
some clarity here. Is this an increase in cost that is related 
to the original scope? In other words, is there a much larger 
scope here, or is it the same scope and just much, much more 
expensive than you anticipated? Mr. Burke, I will turn to you 
for that.
    Mr. Burke. Yes, sir. Thank you for the question. First, I 
would say the increased cost was due to three major things. 
First, the true complexity of this modernization effort was not 
realized at the beginning, and it was apparent at the start of 
the original contract. The second is the need to install strong 
performance metrics to ensure vendor accountability. The third 
was to ensure the protection and delivery of VA's intellectual 
property. We did not have the transfer of intellectual property 
in the initial contract. The requirements were not scoped based 
on the complexity that was determined once we got into the 
program. Simply put, this was a much larger endeavor than 
initially thought.
    Mr. Levin. When I met with Dr. Lawrence in 2019, he 
indicated, cause, you know, when you go and you see Cobol and 
DOS prompts, you say, this really needs to be fixed. What do 
you need? At the time, he said $130 million. That was what he 
said. There is a big difference between $130 million and $453 
million. Can you clarify what accounts for the difference? I 
think it is going to be a repeat of your prior answer, but I 
want to understand the difference between $130 million and a 
$453 million initial contract scope.
    Mr. Burke. Yes, sir. I think to go back, it is a bit of a 
repeat of the prior answer, but I would also like to go back to 
the original lifecycle cost estimate. It was done at a 25 
percent confidence level, which means even at that time, there 
was a 75 percent chance that that number was going to increase. 
I think the initial estimation was----
    Mr. Levin. I should try that with my home budget, with my 
wife. I do not think she would like it very much. What was the 
$54 million for?
    Mr. Burke. I believe the 54 million was one of the initial 
modifications to the original contract.
    Mr. Levin. What was that modification?
    Mr. Burke. I would have to go back, and I would have to----
    Mr. Levin. That is a lot of money. I would like to know. 
Take that back for the record. Then what was the $425 million? 
That is doubling the size, of the contract. What was that?
    Mr. Burke. As part of the growth of the contract, when we 
went to increasing the fidelity of the requirements, what we 
realized is the initial set of requirements lacked 
significantly. Each time we went back and built out the 
requirements, when we pulled more subject matter expertise in 
which was not there quite as needed in the very beginning, as 
we brought the right people and we realized there was a lot 
more work to do. As the requirement complexity built, as the 
number of requirements built, the scope got bigger.
    Mr. Levin. What is your confidence interval today, that the 
scope is what you say.
    Mr. Burke. Very high confidence.
    Mr. Levin. Higher than 25?
    Mr. Burke. Much higher than 20. With the life we are at, 50 
percent is what we are using a life cycle cost estimate. I 
think this collective group thinks our confidence level in 
reaching our goals according to the current project milestones 
is extremely high. Well above 50 percent.
    Mr. Levin. Above 50.
    Mr. Burke. 80 percent.
    Mr. Levin. 80?
    Mr. Burke. Yes, sir.
    Mr. Levin. Going once. Everybody, 80. Everyone agrees. 80 
percent. There is a 20 percent chance that Mr. Rosendale's 
right, you are going to come back and ask for more money. Is 
that correct?
    Mr. Burke. You can attribute that quote to me. Yes, sir.
    Mr. Levin. Okay, final question on the topic. One issue 
also is that we had a program office which has experts on what 
the technology needs to provide, but does not have the experts 
in technology modernization. How do we need to improve the 
partnership between the program offices and OIT to ensure this 
sort of thing does not happen again?
    Mr. Burke. Great question. I think one of the things that 
was lacking significantly and even detected during the IG's 
findings was the lack of the communication and lack of 
structure. We have added 15 personnel inside of education 
service as a formal project management office. We have an 
executive steering committee where decision-makers from all 
parties, OIT, Accenture, all of our dependent partners. We meet 
every 2 weeks. We track every one of our dependencies and 
milestones, and so we have increased communication. The 
undersecretary for benefits and the Chief Information Officer 
(CIO) also hold meetings with us to hold us accountable. Where 
we cannot resolve things in the steering committee, they 
elevate to the undersecretary and the CIO, and they help us get 
to yes or resolve the issues.
    Mr. Levin. What could we do to further improve and refine 
that process to get your confidence interval higher than 80 
percent?
    Mr. Burke. I think we need to keep drilling down on the 
best practices that we have pulled into our current process. We 
need to keep briefing Congress on our progress. We need to 
continue to hold ourselves accountable, and we need to keep 
putting veterans first.
    Mr. Levin. I appreciate that you mentioned three testing 
environments versus one testing environment. Can you explain 
how having only one test environment impacts your work? How 
does this impact your ability to complete this contract on 
schedule?
    Mr. Burke. Yes sir, if I can, I would like to defer that to 
Mr. Orifici.
    Mr. Levin. You got it, sir.
    Mr. Orifici. Thank you for that question. With one testing 
environment, you are only able to test one release at a time. 
As you are working on development, the solution, if you have 
multiple solutions that you are working on at once, you have to 
pause efforts in testing that to test something that you are 
doing to the production system or that you are doing to one of 
the other systems that you are working on in parallel. It 
limits your ability to test multiple things at once. That part 
of the restructuring of the contract was to build that into the 
plan and schedule where we could use one environment to fully 
test all the capabilities and sequences in a way where that 
would not be a limiter.
    Mr. Levin. Is this a fairly common practice, the three 
testing environments?
    Mr. Orifici. We do not have this practice across any other 
portfolio, any other product within the portfolio.
    Mr. Levin. Should we?
    Mr. Orifici. With the three test environments today? It is 
not the three, the number that is the challenge. These are 
three environments of all the interconnected systems. A test 
environment, that is three dedicated test environments for 
Master Person Index (MPI), for VA profile, for Veterans 
Benefits Management System (VBMS), for empower, and then the 
same exact production data set across all of those systems. It 
is the sequencing of keeping all of these things in sync that 
causes a challenge, not the number. It is not, it would not be 
feasible to scale out or test environments for all other 
products to meet this need.
    Mr. Levin. Okay, it is clear it was a problem. There was 
only one testing environment. Mr. Burke, did OINT not have 
enough resources to provide more than one test environment? Was 
there an issue other than that with VA's IT infrastructure 
accommodating more than one test site? I am trying to 
understand how this went wrong.
    Mr. Orifici. In terms of where this went wrong, from the 
beginning, when this program was originally stood up, the team 
who was looking at this was looking at the environments that 
are available through the BDM and the connections there. It was 
not forward looking at what the end to end meant in terms of 
those other systems like MPI, VA profile and Empower, where we 
did not have those test environments. The team was used to 
working where they were the sole team working within BDN, so 
they could buildup as many environments as they want. It did 
not have the interconnectivity that the digital GI Bill now 
has, which brings the value and integration to be able to 
automate and provide the efficiency that that system does. That 
was a misinterpreted requirement by our teams.
    Mr. Levin. Thank you. In the interest of moving this along, 
I am just going to ask one more question. It is an important 
one, and it is for you. Mr. Burke, who is in charge of ensuring 
everyone on a go forward basis is on the same page and on the 
same schedule and adhering to the budget?
    Mr. Burke. Ultimately, within VBA, the undersecretary for 
benefits is responsible for all things with respect to the 
digital GI Bill modernization, that authority was delegated to 
me, and I do that through the executive steering committee, 
where all of our partners have decision-making authority and 
where we do not get to a go or a good point. I elevate that to 
the USB and also the CIO. In essence, the undersecretary is 
always responsible for everything in VBA. I take accountability 
and was delegated authority under this modernization effort.
    Mr. Levin. Thank you, Mr. Burke. With that, I will yield 
back.
    Mr. Van Orden. The gentleman yields back. I am going to 
yield myself as much time as I would like to consume. I would 
also like to invite the Ranking Member to ask anything at any 
point, if something comes up. Okay. It will be noted for the 
record that the undersecretary, Josh Jacobs, refused to come to 
this hearing. He was invited and sent you guys. The person at 
the VA who is ultimately responsible, according to you, Mr. 
Burke, did not come here. That ranks right along with Mr. 
Peters. That is unacceptable. I got to ask you, Mr. Burke. You 
are in the service, right? You are a vet?
    Mr. Burke. Yes, sir.
    Mr. Van Orden. Yes? In what service?
    Mr. Burke. Marine Corps.
    Mr. Van Orden. Marine Corps, Semper Fi. If at any point in 
your Marine Corps career, if someone came up to you and said, 
we are going to launch a mission with 25 percent confidence 
that everyone is not going to die, would you have gone on that 
mission?
    Mr. Burke. No, sir.
    Mr. Van Orden. Okay, so then why in the hell did the VA 
launch, what is turning into a billion-dollar project with only 
25 percent confidence the initial amount of money that is 
allocated budgetarily to this program would work?
    Mr. Burke. Yes sir. I think it goes back to the fact that 
we were trying to do well. There was good intent, and it was 
hastily done and it lacked the subject matter, expertise and 
the right people involved and the right partnerships, not for 
the lack of good intent. It was not, it was not executed 
properly.
    Mr. Van Orden. Mr. Burke, it is a biblical principle that 
the road tail is paved with good intentions and that is sort of 
what happened. What happened was you guys saw a big pot of 
money with a expiration date on it. Your department foolishly 
launched this project with 25 percent confidence. I posit, sir, 
that by you doing that was the same as launching a mission 
where people are going to get killed. This is why. How many 
home healthcare folks could provide in home health care to our 
veterans for $450 million? How many respite care workers that 
could give a break to the caregiver in the home so that they 
can get psychological care and just physical rest? How many of 
those people could be employed for $450 million? How many more 
psychiatrists and psychologists and telehealth platforms could 
we buy for $450 million? How many veterans' lives could be 
saved because they get to speak to somebody and they do not 
commit suicide for $450 million?
    By incredibly, incredibly foolish series of decisions by 
your department, you are de facto responsible for veterans 
committing suicide and not getting healthcare and not being 
able to die in dignity in their home. That is why we do this. 
We do not like picking on you guys, man. We are trying to save 
veterans lives. Good intentions mean nothing. When the veteran 
is dead, they mean nothing. When my colleague Mr. Levin asked 
with what level of fidelity do you think you are at? You said 
80 percent, everyone is like 80 percent. You know who did nod 
their head? Mr. Dahl. The one guy whose department has gone 
through all the stuff that you have been doing, the one dude 
that has a better look at all this stuff from an objective 
perspective, did not nod his head. Mr. Dahl, what is your level 
of confidence that this is going to be completed by 2026 at the 
$900 and what thing? I mean it is $942 million. It is monopoly 
money at this point. What is your opinion Mr. Dahl?
    Mr. Dahl. I would hesitate to offer an opinion. I will say 
that we are confident that if VBA is successful in implementing 
our recommendations----
    Mr. Van Orden. Let me reframe this question. Sir, we have 
identified that the Veterans Affairs Administration disregarded 
every single known planning factor. They disregarded every 
project management thing. They did not even want to give us a 
calendar. Remember that? We had to show the Veterans Affairs 
Administration what a calendar was and then put plans of 
actions and milestones on that. Then, then according to our 
brief the other day, they really just did the same thing. Hey, 
you got to fix all this stuff. They disregarded all of your 
recommendations, or the majority of them, and then they did the 
same thing for another $450 million. Keeping that in mind, 
which we call a pattern of conduct, please answer that question 
again.
    Mr. Dahl. I am really not in a position to tell you how 
confident I am. The VA has a track record.
    Mr. Van Orden. Mr. Dahl. Go ahead. Please continue, please.
    Mr. Dahl. VA does have a track record of difficulty in 
implementing major IT systems. They almost, without fail, take 
longer. They take replans. I would prefer to just leave it at 
that.
    Mr. Van Orden. Well, I respect your professional opinion of 
your position, but I believe you answered my question. Hey, 
hand me that thing there, Kate. Little graphs and stuff. Have 
you guys heard of Pell Grant? Anybody? Pell Grant? Okay, so 
here is how a Pell Grant works, right here. That is how a Pell 
Grant works. You got money and then people in schools. You have 
institute of higher learning, and you have a student. The 
student has to be vetted. You get all this, you are the right 
person, the right time, has a bunch of requirements, 
eligibility and whatnot. Then they apply to a school, and then 
the school gets paid. Oh, sorry. I forgot. You are not the only 
one with this zippy pictures, pal. Yes. Then you like. Then the 
school gets paid, and so does the student. The Pell Grant, they 
have a 2.83 percent, like, error rate right now. Right? Less 
than 3 percent.
    Did it occur to anyone at the Veterans Affairs 
Administration to maybe go, hey, how do you administer the Pell 
Grant? What do you do? What systems do you use? Instead of 
blowing a billion dollars that could have been applied to 
veterans healthcare to make sure they did not commit suicide? 
Did anybody do that in your executive planning sessions? Mr. I 
am not asking you, Burke. Excuse me, Mr. Burke. I am asking 
you, Mr. Orifici, because you are around. Did you look at 
preexisting models that the Federal Government uses to do 
essentially exactly the same thing that you are doing?
    Mr. Orifici. Before the digital GI Bill program? We 
actually did meet with the Department of Education and talked 
about their IT solutions that they had in place. I do not know 
that they played a part in the planning of the actual program 
as we moved the contract forward.
    Mr. Van Orden. You went to talk to someone, and trust me, 
if I am complimenting the Department of Education, that really, 
that is dogs and cats sleeping together at this point. Okay, so 
you went to a department that has an existing program that was 
working with still 2.83 percent is too big of a failure rate. 
Then you used part. I mean, did you just pick the parts that 
were not working and then put that. Were those the parts that 
you used for your planning factor?
    Mr. Orifici. They were exploratory conversations or are 
they were not actually part of the research for the contract.
    Mr. Van Orden. Are you familiar with something called 
Cerner?
    Mr. Orifici. I am, sir.
    Mr. Van Orden. Do you know how much money Cerner is going 
to be the electronic medical record. To date, the Veterans 
Affairs Administration has spent about $16 billion for 
something that does not work. Are you familiar with a system 
called Epic?
    Mr. Orifici. Yes, sir, I am.
    Mr. Van Orden. Okay, Epic is a COTS. That is a commercial, 
off the shelf technology, medical software suite that you can 
drive to the headquarters from my house in an hour and a half. 
When I go around to my Veterans Integrated Service Networks 
(VISN) and I speak to everybody, I speak to the doctors and all 
the providers and everybody, they just want to use Epic. It is 
a preexisting thing. It bridges all of your platforms. You can 
use community care, which some people, the Veterans Affairs 
Administration, are hesitant because they are kind of 
protecting their own thing, but you can have an immediate 
connection from the civilian to the military thing. Problem 
solved. The VA chose to do this instead.
    They did Cerner instead of Epic, and we did this instead of 
paying a 14 year old in pop Tarts and Red Bull. Who could have 
had this done in about 6 months in between playing call of 
duty. I mean. Okay, where are those other things? This is 
baffling to me. Yes. Mr. Parke, what is your communication 
feedback loop with the VA at this point?
    Mr. Parke. As Mr. Burke mentioned, we have a governance 
structure. We meet frequently every week with Mr. Garcia. We 
also have a biweekly executive steering committee which Mr. 
Burke chairs.
    Mr. Van Orden. When did that start?
    Mr. Parke. From day one.
    Mr. Van Orden. All right, Mr. Jacobs, or is Josh. He is not 
here. Is Undersecretary Jacobs involved in those meetings?
    Mr. Parke. Question to me?
    Mr. Van Orden. Yes.
    Mr. Parke. He is not.
    Mr. Van Orden. Okay, so hold on a second. Mr. Garcia, the 
last time we were here, you said that you are responsible for 
all this stuff. Now Mr. Burke is telling me that he is 
responsible for all this stuff. Who is responsible?
    Mr. Garcia. Sir. As Mr. Burke said, he is the accountable 
official. Like Mr. Parke said, we meet regularly on governance 
so that is where I get involved at my level, to make sure 
operationally, we are moving the progress forward.
    Mr. Van Orden. No one is responsible. If you are 
responsible, you are responsible. Under Secretary Jacobs is 
responsible, and ultimately Secretary McDonough is responsible, 
then no one is responsible. Mr. Dahl, from your perspective, if 
you could lay out a line of block chart, who would be 
responsible for this? I mean, who is in charge?
    Mr. Dahl. The undersecretary for benefits.
    Mr. Van Orden. Okay, so the one guy that is responsible, 
like actually responsible, chose not to attend this meeting. 
That is the problem right there. I got to ask you guys some 
questions here. There has been a remarkable, demonstratable, 
definable, and unquestionable amount of incompetence being 
exercised across the board. My question to you is, at what 
point does incompetence become malfeasance? At what point does 
malfeasance become corruption? You guys keep doing the same 
thing again and again and again from Cerner to this to, as Mr. 
Dahl so aptly pointed out, like every single IT thing. Like Mr. 
Dahl, are you aware of any IT project that is organic to the 
Veterans Affairs Administration that was not over budget and 
overtime? Please tell me just one thing. I want a good news 
story.
    Mr. Dahl. Personally, I am not.
    Mr. Van Orden. Okay. I did not think I was going to get a 
good news story. Okay, so if we can say Mr. Dahl, who is the 
OIG, cannot name a single IT project that was organic to the 
Veterans Affairs Administration. We are talking with this and 
the Cerner thing, you know, we are pushing $20 billion. No one 
has been fired, everyone has been paid, everybody has gone to 
every conference, everybody gets a bonus. Have we crossed from 
incompetence into malfeasance? Meaning you are doing this on 
purpose so that you can continue doing the same thing again and 
getting money. That is corruption. That is corruption. I mean, 
that is right? Until we root out corruption in our own 
government, which is blatant, we point fingers around the world 
at everybody else saying you are corrupt. Look at this country 
and that country. Look at these guys. It is right here and 
again the point of this is making sure when we are all like, we 
are the best, we want everything for every veteran, we want to 
save every.
    It is not true. It is no longer true. When we are wasting 
billions of dollars that could be paying someone that can take 
care of somebody in Prairie Duchesne, Wisconsin, where I live 
in their home so they could be there. It is not true. When my 
uncle Bob, Robert Francis Mulligan, whose picture is right back 
there, World War Two, Korea war veteran, grievously injured in 
Korea, had to go to a nursing home because a bunch of these 
programs, no one either knew about them or they are 
underfunded. He died alone in a nursing home because of this. 
Mr. Parke, Accenture renegotiated his contract at almost double 
the cost. You are at, you said 99.9 percent like you are error 
free. Correct?
    Mr. Parke. For monthly housing allowance? Yes, correct as 
of release six.
    Mr. Van Orden. Okay, then what everything else?
    Mr. Parke. I believe VA collects information about total 
payment accuracy. I will defer to the VA for that.
    Mr. Van Orden. Total payment accuracy, anybody?
    Mr. Burke. Yes, sir. Total payment accuracy is 98 percent. 
I also have automation accuracy numbers if you desire, Mr. 
Chairman.
    Mr. Van Orden. What is it about?
    Mr. Burke. 96 percent for supplemental, the original is 
lower at 71, but improving. In fact, with respect to the 
original claims processing, with working through our governance 
process, we have had seven enhancements with 26 total 
improvements and will continue as that accuracy level 
increases. Payment accuracy, 98 percent. Our combined accuracy 
between originals and supplementals is 92 percent. That is 
because the original inventory, for the original inventory only 
makes up 7 percent of the overall inventory.
    Mr. Van Orden. Okay, hold on 1 second. We are doing some 
quick math up here. You add all those together, you are 96.25 
percent.
    Mr. Burke. You are averaging averages, Mr. Chairman. That 
is not. You do not average averages.
    Mr. Van Orden. Okay, well, I was an enlisted guy, so it 
looks like, you know, I am just going to say that it is about 
95 percent across the board, 96 percent. The timeliness is 
going to be improved. How has the timeliness improved again?
    Mr. Burke. With respect to timeliness, we have reduced 
timeliness significantly. With respect to original claims, it 
used to take on average, 28 days to process. It is now down to 
ten. With supplementals it was 14. It has now dropped to four. 
We are continuing to drive not only the improvements in 
timeliness but increase the automation percentage and the 
automation accuracy.
    Mr. Van Orden. Two things. What is the automation 
percentage now and what was the time reduction to get your 
certificate of eligibility?
    Mr. Burke. The reduction for certificate of eligibility is 
now in minutes where it used to be, minutes, okay, to weeks.
    Mr. Van Orden. Then reduction in?
    Mr. Burke. Reduction in time, for original claims went from 
28 days to ten, for supplementals from 14 to four. With respect 
to automation percentages from original, it went from 0 percent 
to 32, and for supplemental claims from 39 percent to 64. Both 
are climbing.
    Mr. Van Orden. Okay, so we spent $450 million, and we are 
at 96 percent across the board. We are going to spend another 
$450 million to wrap up the other 6 percent. That makes no 
sense at all. We are now at 60 plus percent automation, and we 
are climbing. That is good. That means more efficiency and all 
that stuff. Right here is my question. How many employees are 
you going to fire once you get this automated?
    Mr. Burke. The answer is here. We are not firing, ok? We 
are repurposing them for other benefits delivered. They are not 
fired. They are being reutilized, retrained, and repurposed.
    Mr. Van Orden. Okay. That is corruption. Just nailed it. We 
are spending a billion dollars, a billion dollars to make 
everything more efficient, more cost efficient and streamlined. 
We are not going to remove any of the people from that process 
when they are redundant at this point. We are going to 
repurpose them.
    Mr. Burke. I am sorry, sir, to clarify, I thought you were 
referring to removal, meaning from Federal Government. That is 
not the goal of automation. Remove them from the process. We 
are already removing folks from the process. We have a pack 
deck that brought in a much larger inventory across all of our 
benefits portfolios. We have been repurposing people from one 
business line to the next to take on that workload. That is not 
corruption. That is benefits delivery, and that is putting 
veterans first.
    Mr. Van Orden. Okay, well, that is just not true. I 
appreciate it greatly, but it is nothing. It is not. Starts 
from the top. No one is been fired. Nobody. You guys are. You 
are batting zero. You are batting zero for IT projects. No one 
has been fired. You messed up the planning to begin with. You 
messed it up again. You started off this project with 25 
percent confidence. You would have killed your entire platoon. 
People are dying now because we are wasting money. The money 
that the thing that needs to be repurposed is not a person that 
is no longer doing a redundant function. It is the money that 
you are wasting and throwing into a fire. Mr. Dahl, based on 
your investigation, do you believe this system is going to be 
successful if they follow the recommendations?
    Mr. Dahl. I have confidence that our recommendations will 
be helpful to VBA to implement this. What we are hearing today, 
it seems like things are heading in a positive direction. Keep 
in mind that our fieldwork ended just before the renegotiated 
contract. We have not gone in and analyzed what has happened 
since the renegotiated contract. Taking what Mr. Burke has 
said, it seems that things are moving in a positive direction. 
We are hopeful that our recommendations will help them get to 
the finish line.
    Mr. Van Orden. Okay. Yes. Here is what I am going to say. 
Here is what I am going to ask. Will anybody here commit to 
resigning if you spend a single nickel more than what you just 
said, Mr. Parke, will anybody here resign? You are not going 
to, and you are not going to, and you are not going to, and no 
one will be fired. Someone may get a harshly worded email, and 
billions of dollars are going to be continued thrown into a 
fire as we cannot fund someone to go take care of a veteran in 
their home so they can die in dignity, or we cannot fund a 
telehealth system and a veteran living in a rural area is going 
to commit suicide. That is what is going to happen. That is why 
people despise the Federal Government. In this particular case, 
I join them. I would like to yield to Ranking Member Levin if 
he has any further comments. Sir.
    Mr. Levin. Thank the Chairman and I thank all of our 
witnesses. I do share the disappointment with the extraordinary 
cost overruns here. I am hopeful that your 80 percent 
confidence interval will increase rather than decrease. I can 
tell you that 80 percent is not good enough for me. You know, I 
am hopeful that we can go back to Muskogee as well and actually 
see the progress that has been made. What I saw back in 2019 
was shocking and disturbing. It was very clear that you had 
folks using severely antiquated systems. They were doing their 
best. I give great credit to the ingenuity of the VA staff in 
Muskogee who were somehow able to cobble together the results 
necessary for the basic needs of veterans calling in or writing 
in.
    Clearly, modernization was needed. At the time, as I said, 
the initial estimate from the prior administration, compared to 
the 400 plus million that has been spent now, another roughly 
half a billion dollars that you are contemplating spending. 
This has to work. I share the frustration. I also took your 
words at heart, Mr. Burke, that there are a lot of well-
intended people who, very much like us, care about our Nation's 
veterans and want to see this work on a bipartisan basis. I 
hope in this committee, always will do what is best for our 
veterans. I can tell you that I do believe in the adage, if you 
are in a hole, you need to stop digging. I am hopeful that in 
these meetings that you are having on a regular basis that you 
are both reflective of the past in the sense that you are 
trying to avoid past mistakes, and mindful that you have to be 
good stewards of every single taxpayer dollar that you have 
ultimate accountability for.
    The lack of direct accountability is also a challenge we 
face that my five and a half years in this committee, and 
specifically in the subcommittee, we have had so many hearings, 
scores of hearings, where we ask who is in charge. Today I at 
least commend you, Mr. Burke, for saying with clarity and 
certainty that you are in charge. You know, if not on a flow 
chart or an org chart, somewhere you go to bed at night 
thinking about those veterans that you are trying to serve, 
waking up, figuring out how you can be the best steward of the 
dollars that VA has responsibility for. I ask you to just, you 
know, continue on that path of clarity and certainty that what 
is happened here is, it really is unacceptable.
    I commend OIG for their report, for their work. I hope 
another report is not needed in 2 years, 3 years, 4 years, 5 
years. It seems like, you know, the Federal Government has a 
tendency to keep you pretty busy at OIG, I can tell you that. 
You know, at the end of the day, I do think we all want the 
same thing. I very much appreciate the opportunity to work with 
the Chairman these last couple years to try to just, in the 
best way we can, do what is right for our Nation's veterans, 
make sure they are getting the benefits that they have earned. 
That is how it is always going to be in this committee. I trust 
that you will take from this hearing that you cannot keep 
wasting, you cannot waste another dollar on this. I think all 
eyes are on what you are doing right now. You have got to get 
this right.
    The next time I go to Muskogee, I want to get the good 
barbecue. I also want to see a modern, efficient, effective 
system where if a veteran moves from State to State, or if a 
veteran has new needs or concerns that they are addressed just 
as they should have been years ago and were not, I think there 
is plenty of blame to go around. We are talking about, you 
know, gosh, Cobol's 50 years old again. We are talking about 
five decades of employees at VA, again, well intentioned, but 
not getting the job done to modernize that system. We are 
counting on you to do it. Our veterans are counting on you to 
do it. I hope you do. You really need to. With that, I will 
yield back, Mr. Chairman.
    Mr. Van Orden. Thank you. Ranking Member Levin. To be 
explicitly clear, the intent of these harsh words that we are 
using is for the sole purpose of making sure that our veterans 
get the care that they deserve, that they have earned. I also 
want to make sure that the folks that check me in La Crosse, 
Wisconsin, so I can get my healthcare, that instead of wasting 
billions of dollars, maybe we can give them a pay raise. Or the 
fact that we are having difficulty hiring and retaining doctors 
and nurses and nurse practitioners, psychiatrists, 
psychologists, counselors. We are having across the board 
issues hiring and retaining these people because they can go 
into the civilian world and get paid more because we are 
wasting billions of dollars.
    Being able to apply the moneys that are literally wasted, 
that have boldly crossed from incompetence to malfeasance to 
corruption, wiping that out, we can compensate the people that 
are caring for our veterans, that have given us our freedom, 
and that we owe a debt. These programs, the Veterans Affairs 
Administration, also makes sure that our gold star spouses have 
benefits, that the children. I just walked around. I did a 
capitol tour with four of our widows and four of their----
excuse me, three of our widows and four of their children. 
Every penny that is wasted cannot be applied to making sure 
that our gold star families have what they need. We have to 
understand that relationship between us and them is not a 
mortgage. That is not a 30-year commitment. That is a lifetime 
commitment, and we owe them better. We are talking about 
prosthetics the other day. We do not have enough money for 
this, but we have enough money because someone cannot follow 
basic planning guidelines. That is wholly unacceptable. Year 
after year after year after year, and every single IT project 
has been a galactic failure from the VA. That is not 
acceptable. People need to start losing their jobs or they need 
to resign.
    I am very clear about this. I got out of the SEAL teams 
because I could not carry a rucksack anymore. I retired because 
I knew I could not do my job. If I was doing my job at the 
level you guys are doing your job, I would resign. I have 
proven that. Are you trying to do what is right? Yes, I get it. 
With a demonstrated pattern of conduct, which is exactly what 
you have, that transcends any good intention. I ask unanimous 
consent that all members may have five legislative days to 
revise and extend their remarks and include extraneous 
material. Without objection. So, ordered. This hearing is 
adjourned.
    [Whereupon, at 2:30 p.m., the subcommittee was adjourned.]


      
      
      
      
      
      
      
      
      
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                         A  P  P  E  N  D  I  X

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                    Prepared Statements of Witnesses

                              ----------                              


                   Prepared Statement of Ronald Burke

    Chairman Van Orden, Ranking Member Levin, and other Members of the 
Subcommittee, thank you for the opportunity to appear before you today 
to discuss the Department of Veteran's Affairs (VA) Digital GI Bill 
(DGIB) program and the continued information technology system 
improvements and upgrades. Accompanying me today is Mr. Joseph Garcia, 
Executive Director, Education Service, and Mr. Robert Orifici from the 
Office of Information and Technology (OIT).
    To ensure VA serves all Veterans and their families seeking to use 
their GI Bill benefits and equip them with the tools and resources 
necessary to reach their academic and career goals, VA is modernizing 
the GI Bill's Information Technology (IT) platform to deliver benefits 
faster and enhance customer service.
    The goal of this effort is to develop a modern digital platform, 
leveraging cloud-based automation, digital service transformation, 
human-centered design, robust communications, analytics, and other 
important IT services. The improvements will provide world-class 
customer and benefit services to Veterans and VA's partners, enabling 
more timely and accurate delivery of education benefits, providing near 
real-time eligibility and benefit information, and allowing for first 
contact resolution.
    Another aspect of the DGIB effort is to modernize the numerous 
legacy systems that are outdated and costly. Updating the benefits 
payment platform from the 50-year-old Benefits Delivery Network (BDN) 
will reduce costs and enhance the reliability and security of benefits 
payments to the Nation's Veterans and beneficiaries.

DGIB Progress to Date

Veteran Claims and Automation

    Claims process automation is key for improving a Veteran's GI Bill 
experience. VA is significantly closer to meeting the goal of 
automating 50 percent of original claims and 80 percent of supplemental 
claims. A large number of Chapter 33 original claims can now be 
automated. This means a Certificate of Eligibility (COE) can be issued 
in a matter of minutes. This allows the Veteran to start an education 
program and begin receiving education benefits sooner. Since 
implementation of the DGIB platform in March 2021, automation of 
original claims has grown from 0 percent to 32 percent, and 
supplemental claims from 39 percent to 64 percent (FY 2024 to date, as 
of September 11, 2024). Because of this automation and advances to VA's 
platform, the time it takes to decide an original claim has decreased 
from 28 days to 10 days on average, and supplemental claims time has 
dropped from 14 days to only 4 days on average.
    Receiving a COE is the first step toward using education benefits. 
Prior to the Digital GI Bill modernization, a manual original claim 
could take weeks or months before an education benefits decision was 
made. For example, in a taping of VBA Education Service's State of 
Education video series\1\ on platform and technology enhancements, we 
identified an active-duty service member named Carson, who submitted 
his original claim for education benefits. Due to the backend system 
connection, Carson's application included pre-filled service history 
information. After completing a few questions, he submitted his GI Bill 
application through the new automated platform. VA immediately received 
his application, which was evaluated in the Digital GI Bill system. 
Within 15 minutes, Carson received his digital COE, which he can access 
at any time on VA.gov. When he is ready to pursue his educational goals 
using his G.I. Bill benefits, Carson already has his COE to get 
started. His spouse expressed gratitude for VA's quick decision for 
Carson and what it means for their growing family's future.
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    \1\ https://www.youtube.com/@VAVetBenefits/videos
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    The highest priority for DGIB is to improve the Veteran experience. 
Customer experience surveys show that the DGIB's improved claims 
automation is benefiting individuals like Carson. For example, one 
question about timely receipt of the COE demonstrated this commitment 
to improving the customer experience. Nearly 92 percent of individuals 
surveyed answered affirmatively to the survey item: ``It was easy to 
share my Certificate of Eligibility with my school to inform that I 
wanted to enroll using my GI Bill benefits.''
    The VBA Veteran Signals Surveys, which reflect the trust Veterans 
have in Education Service, increased significantly in all categories 
from Fiscal Year 2022 to Fiscal Year 2024 (Q3). Applying for benefits 
increased from 69.7 percent to 75.7 percent, Enrolling in school 
increased from 75.5 percent to 89.9 percent, and Receiving education 
benefits increased from 77.4 percent to 87 percent. The overall trust 
score based on all the surveys improved by 12.96 percent from Fiscal 
Year 2022 to Fiscal Year 2024 (Q3).

New Platform for School Certifying Officials

    Enhanced program governance has also led to improved customer 
experience for the School Certifying Officials (SCOs). In March 2023, 
Enrollment Manager (major release 5) was launched, which replaced the 
dated legacy system. Since then, over 7 million enrollments have been 
processed using the modernized system.
    SCOs are better equipped to counsel and advise student Veterans on 
achieving their educational goals. In regular surveys, SCOs answered 
98.2 percent affirmatively to the question, ``I feel much more 
comfortable submitting enrollments within Enrollment Manager This 
feedback is validation of VA's progress in providing SCOs with the 
tools they need to better serve Veterans. For example, a new feature 
enables the SCO to inform the student Veteran on the initial visit the 
amount of G.I. Bill education benefits that are available for 
educational pursuits. SCOs have shared that this feature allows better 
counseling and advice upfront to student Veterans on achieving their 
educational goals.
    Through attendance at numerous conferences such as the Western 
Association of Veteran Education Specialists (WAVES) and other outreach 
events, VA proactively requests additional feedback from the SCO 
community concerning Enrollment Manager. VA takes the feedback back to 
the managed service vendor to enhance customer experience through 
regular system updates.

Improved Data Retrieval and Reporting

    VBA's Education Service is currently working to improve data 
retrieval and reporting. Examples include enhancing the Education Call 
Center support through generative artificial intelligence (AI) 
knowledge and supporting School Certifying Officials in addressing 
questions regarding VA education benefits and use of the Enrollment 
Manager System. Additionally, prior to the launch of DGIB Data Mart in 
June 2023, Education Service data was stored across multiple systems, 
and it did not have direct ownership of the data. The launch of DGIB 
Data Mart Analytics Platform (DMAP) centralized beneficiary outcome 
data across all VA education benefits. This enabled self-service 
analytics, reduced the time required to review and certify data, and 
introduced AI and Machine Learning capabilities. The Approvals, 
Compliance, and Liaison staff is leveraging DMAP for improved analysis 
to inform risk based surveys.

Enhanced Payment Platform

    Additional proof that the modernization efforts are working was the 
successful transition to the Enterprise Management of Payments, 
Workload, and Reporting VA (eMPWR) payment platform launched on 
schedule on July 8, 2024 (major release 6). Release 6 transitioned 87 
percent of total payments processing off the Benefits Delivery Network 
(BDN) legacy platform, marking the first step toward decommissioning 
the 50+ year old BDN, after numerous other attempts to do so.
    The change reduces security risks for claimants, while providing a 
smoother Chapter 33 claims processing experience for Veteran Claims 
Examiners (VCEs), by integrating claims processing to a single 
platform. For the first time, data reciprocity and interoperability are 
enabled, which allows VA to consolidate its data sources and 
synchronize data across platforms. The August 2024 Monthly Housing 
Allowance $206 million payment file of 214,333 claimants was 
successfully run with 99.99 percent accuracy.

Office of Inspector General (OIG) Report

    Notwithstanding the progress that has been achieved to date, the 
recent report issued by the Office of Inspector General (OIG) 
highlights numerous recommendations that VA can leverage to ensure 
continuous improvement of the DGIB modernization effort. I will briefly 
highlight a few actions VA is taking that are responsive to several of 
those recommendations.
    Recommendation 1 of the OIG report advised VA to ``Establish a 
mechanism to monitor progress of the Digital GI Bill platform 
implementation under the renegotiated contract to avoid additional 
costs and delays.'' To ensure this recommendation is addressed, VA 
continues the progression of the Program Management Office (PMO) to 
ensure adequate oversight of DGIB progress. VA has added 15 full-time 
equivalent employees to support PMO functions along with supplemental 
contractor support.
    Recommendation 2 of the OIG report advised VA to ``Communicate 
regularly with the Digital GI Bill platform contractor to ensure that 
the project's integrated master schedule or other master scheduling 
plan is consistently updated to reflect all schedule changes for 
external dependencies.'' To ensure this recommendation is addressed, VA 
will continue to review the master planning schedule to ensure all 
relevant systems are integrated. This is being accomplished through our 
robust governance process and continued communication with the managed 
service vendor.
    Finally, we will continue collaborative efforts with the OIG staff 
and our other partners, such as the Office of Information and 
Technology (OIT), to address improvement opportunities and appropriate 
closure actions for the specific recommendations. VA commits to 
engaging with our OIG partners to ensure the intent of their 
recommendations is met by our actions.
    In addition to their recommendations, OIG also identified increased 
costs associated with the DGIB contract. VA acknowledges that the true 
complexity of the modernization vision was not apparent at the start of 
the original contract, which was developed in 2020 and executed in 
early 2021, and the contract required a full review to ensure that VA 
was on track for success. As the program evolved and VA worked through 
the major releases within the contract, it became evident that 
unanticipated work needed to be added to the original contract to fully 
enable the transition from VA's ancient Common Business Oriented 
Language (COBOL) system, install strong performance metrics as a 
measure of contractor success, meet DGIB's growing needs, and ensure 
protection and delivery of VA's intellectual property and data rights. 
While working through modernization activities, some external 
dependencies were unable to meet committed integration dates, including 
the need for an additional testing environment. This required changes 
to schedules and additional work to be added. Further, VA secured the 
transfer of intellectual property to the VA, which differed from the 
scope of the original contract. VA leadership determined the 
transferred intellectual property gives VA the flexibility to maintain 
developmental and operational control of the platform assets, so that 
VA can make faster and safer strategic decisions, independent of 
contractor constraints.
    At the end of Fiscal Year (FY) 2023, the DGIB program underwent a 
successful restructuring and rescheduling to accelerate the 
modernization of system interfaces and integrations, improvement of 
claims processing automation, and facilitation of legacy system 
decommissioning. The DGIB program encompasses the operation, 
maintenance, and improvement of the DGIB Platform, Veterans Education 
Benefit Tools, and the education legacy systems, which are planned for 
the eventual decommissioning of numerous separate systems (including 
the Benefits Delivery Network, the Imaging Management System, the Web 
Enabled Approval Management System, and Work Study Management System). 
These modernizations to VA systems are required to meet the 
expectations and demands of GI Bill Veteran students, beneficiaries, 
and other key stakeholders. As VA continues to move forward with future 
releases and as noted above, VA remains committed to ensuring proper 
governance and communication across all entities involved in DGIB 
implementation.

Future State

    The DGIB team is continuing to make enhancements that contribute to 
direct, online, one-stop access to education benefit resources. These 
changes will continue the evolution of a Managed Service that increases 
efficiency and reduces manual processes, allowing VA to focus more on 
serving Veterans and their families.
    While Release 6 transitioned 87 percent of total payments 
processing off the BDN legacy platform, future Releases 7 and 8, 
targeted for 2025, will address the remaining 13 percent for the path 
to BDN decommissioning.

Conclusion

    Mr. Chairman, VA has made tremendous strides in the administration 
of VA education benefits in recent years through modernization efforts. 
VA acknowledges the challenges we have experienced in implementing DGIB 
but believe that we are on the right path to improve the education 
benefits for Veterans and their families. VA looks forward to the 
continued feedback from our stakeholders and commits to continued 
partnership with such entities to ensure proper oversight and 
accountability. VA appreciates the support of the Committee as VA 
continues its effort to modernize VA educational assistance programs. 
This concludes my testimony. My colleagues and I look forward to 
responding to any questions you or other Members of the Subcommittee 
may have.

                  Prepared Statement of Nicholas Dahl
                  
[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

                   Prepared Statement of Justin Parke
                   
[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]


                       Statements for the Record

                              ----------                              


              Prepared Statement of The MITRE Corporation

    Chairman Van Orden, Ranking Member Levin, and other Members of the 
Subcommittee, thank you for the opportunity to provide a statement for 
the record on matters relating to the Department of Veteran's Affairs 
(VA) Digital GI Bill program. Successful modernization of legacy IT is 
critical to improving the Veteran experience. MITRE very much 
appreciates the opportunity to share our insight from our work on this 
critical program.
    MITRE is a 501(c)(3) not-for-profit corporation. We are chartered 
to operate in the public interest, which includes operating federally 
funded research and development centers, or FFRDCs, on behalf of 
Federal agency sponsors, including the Department of Defense; the 
Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services at the Department of Health 
and Human Services; the National Institute of Standards and Technology 
which operates the National Cybersecurity Center of Excellence; the 
Federal Aviation Administration; the Department of Homeland Security; 
the Department of Treasury; the Department of Commerce; the Social 
Security Administration; and the Veterans Administration. Over the last 
25 years, MITRE's technical and subject matter experts who support 
these centers have had the privilege of supporting many modernization 
efforts across the Federal enterprise.

A Trusted Partner

    MITRE has been a partner with the VA's Education Service since 
2008. We were initially brought on as a partner to support the 
implementation of The Post-9/11 Veterans' Educational Assistance Act of 
2008 (Post-9/11 GI Bill). MITRE worked alongside Education Service, its 
Veterans Benefits Administration (VBA) partners, and the Office of 
Information Technology (OIT) to help drive development of a new system 
to process Post-9/11 GI Bill claims.
    Education Service partnered with MITRE again in 2019 to prepare for 
an extensive modernization of their claims processing systems. MITRE 
worked with Education Service to draw up the Modernization Value 
Proposition to include the path forward for modernizing claims 
processing and customer service, providing direct, online, one-stop 
access to GI Bill benefits and information. Speed and simplicity are 
essential for Veterans trying to access their benefits while facing 
college application deadlines. This modernization vision is a 
transition to a holistic service that improves user experiences across 
the entire internal and external environment.
    MITRE's role has focused on providing strategic advice, guidance, 
and assistance in the areas of systems engineering, program 
integration, and organizational change. Our work includes completing 
the annual update of the life cycle cost estimate (LCCE) for the 
Digital GI Bill (DGIB) program, and we most recently delivered version 
4.0 in April 2024. The next update is planned for April 2025.

Life Cycle Cost Estimate

    The life cycle cost estimate (LCCE) provides the total cost to the 
Government of acquisition and ownership of the system over its full 
lifetime. It encompasses the cost of development, acquisition, support, 
and disposal. The primary purpose of this estimate is to establish an 
overall program cost baseline, which serves as a critical tool for 
resource planning, program justification, and other essential decision-
making activities.
    A LCCE is a required artifact for any large program exceeding $50 
million\1\. This requirement is specified for IT systems through the 
Office of Management and Budget's (OMB) Capital Planning and Investment 
Control (CPIC) framework, as detailed in the Capital Programming Guide 
and various OMB Circulars, including A-11 and A-94. The LCCE is a vital 
tool for supporting sound financial decision-making throughout the life 
of a program and informing outyear budgetary requirements.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \1\ The White House--OMB Circular A-11. Retrieved from: a11.pdf 
(whitehouse.gov)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    It is a living document that GAO recommends be updated annually to 
reflect actual expenditures, changes in technical, economic, and 
programmatic assumptions, and fact-of-life changes such as new 
legislation impacting the agency, Veterans, service members, and 
beneficiaries. It is important to note that the LCCE is distinct from a 
business case or a return on investment analysis.
    The methodology for developing the LCCE adheres to the best 
practices outlined in the Government Accountability Office (GAO) Cost 
Estimating and Assessment Guide (CEAG) \2\. The LCCE functions as an 
input-output model, with inputs capturing technical, economic, and 
programmatic parameters and assumptions, ultimately producing a point 
estimate and a range estimate to establish contingency reserves.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \2\ GAO Cost Estimating and Assessment Guide--GAO-20-195G, 
Published: Mar 12, 2020.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    The initial version of a LCCE is considered the baseline and 
typically exhibits a higher level of uncertainty, with the point 
estimate having an approximate 25 percent confidence level based on 
empirical studies\3\. Version 1.0 of the DGIB LCCE reflected a point 
estimate of $1.295 billion (then-year dollars) at the 25 percent 
confidence level, meaning there is a 75 percent probability of the 
point estimate increasing. GAO recommends using the estimated value at 
a 50 percent confidence level for budget projections in mature programs 
to establish contingency reserves. With each subsequent iteration, the 
uncertainty should decrease, and the point estimate confidence level 
should increase. The program cost team diligently tracks changes to the 
programmatic and technical environments and associated assumptions to 
inform annual updates and provide input to decision-makers.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \3\ Journal of Cost Analysis and Parametrics--Enhanced Scenario-
Based Method for Cost Risk Analysis: Theory, Application, and 
Implementation. Retrieved from: https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/
10.1080/1941658X.2012.734757.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    As of the April 2024 update (version 4.0), the DGIB Program has an 
estimated total cost of $2.04 billion in base year Fiscal Year 2021 
constant dollars over a 10-year period, rising to approximately $2.28 
billion when adjusted for inflation (then-year dollars). This update 
reflects the award of a task order to Accenture Federal Services on the 
Alliant 2 contract in December 2023, which altered these figures. This 
task order makes up a portion of the total life cycle costs. At a 50 
percent confidence level, the program's estimated life cycle cost 
reaches $2.42 billion in then-year dollars, including a contingency 
reserve of $135 million.
    The Digital GI Bill program is large and complex and accordingly 
has inevitably encountered challenges, unanticipated complexities, and 
the realization of risks that have led to schedule delays and increased 
costs. Replacing extremely old legacy IT systems that rely on outdated 
software languages and hardware, such as the VA's 1970's-era mainframe 
Benefits Delivery Network among others, presents a multitude of 
challenges. As expected, this effort has required re-engineering that 
yields issues that are difficult to anticipate and necessitate 
extensive testing and validation to minimize disruption to business 
operations such that access to benefits is not delayed.
    The impact of challenges associated with modernizing legacy IT 
systems that are this dated, as well as updates to assumptions 
regarding claims volume, automation, the number of required Veterans 
Claim Examiners (VCE) post full implementation, the establishment of 
the EDU Program Management Office, and alignment of DGIB with dependent 
legacy systems and other large-scale modernization programs schedules 
and roadmaps to minimize the disruption of services resulted in the 
point estimate increase from LCCE version 1.0 (conducted in 2021) to 
version 4.0 (delivered in April of this year). The primary areas of 
cost increase over the lifecycle are the VCE assumption and timing of 
required automation targets ($500M), and the GSA Alliant 2 contract to 
extend the platform configuration by 4 years to accommodate schedule 
impacts ($426M).
    VBA's active leadership and ongoing evolution of program processes, 
tools, and experienced staff will enable the program to continue 
identifying challenges, crafting options, and proposing adjustments and 
improvements that will increase the probability of future success.

Conclusion

    In closing, let me just note that of MITRE's roughly 10,000 
personnel, over 1,600 are Veterans. There are few duties that our 
employees consider more noble and consequential than honoring, through 
our support for the VA, the service and sacrifice of our Nation's men 
and women in uniform. On behalf of the entire MITRE team, I greatly 
appreciate the Committee's consideration of this statement for the 
record.

                                 [all]