[House Hearing, 118 Congress]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]





                                



 
       IT ALL DEPENDS ON WATER: EXAMINING EFFORTS TO IMPROVE AND


                 PROTECT CENTRAL OREGON'S WATER SUPPLY

=======================================================================

                        OVERSIGHT FIELD HEARING

                               before the

             SUBCOMMITTEE ON WATER, WILDLIFE AND FISHERIES

                                 of the

                     COMMITTEE ON NATURAL RESOURCES
                     U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

                    ONE HUNDRED EIGHTEENTH CONGRESS

                             SECOND SESSION

                               __________

              Tuesday, October 8, 2024 in Redmond, Oregon

                               __________

                           Serial No. 118-149

                               __________

       Printed for the use of the Committee on Natural Resources
       
       
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        Available via the World Wide Web: http://www.govinfo.gov      
        
        
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          Committee address: http://naturalresources.house.gov
          
          
                             ______

             U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE 
 57-048 PDF           WASHINGTON : 2025
   
          
          
          
          
      

                     COMMITTEE ON NATURAL RESOURCES

                     BRUCE WESTERMAN, AR, Chairman
                    DOUG LAMBORN, CO, Vice Chairman
                  RAUL M. GRIJALVA, AZ, Ranking Member

Doug Lamborn, CO                     Grace F. Napolitano, CA
Robert J. Wittman, VA                Gregorio Kilili Camacho Sablan,
Tom McClintock, CA                               CNMI
Paul Gosar, AZ                       Jared Huffman, CA
Garret Graves, LA                    Ruben Gallego, AZ
Aumua Amata C. Radewagen, AS         Joe Neguse, CO
Doug LaMalfa, CA                     Mike Levin, CA
Daniel Webster, FL                   Katie Porter, CA
Jenniffer Gonzalez-Colon, PR         Teresa Leger Fernandez, NM
Russ Fulcher, ID                     Melanie A. Stansbury, NM
Pete Stauber, MN                     Mary Sattler Peltola, AK
John R. Curtis, UT                   Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, NY
Tom Tiffany, WI                      Kevin Mullin, CA
Jerry Carl, AL                       Val T. Hoyle, OR
Matt Rosendale, MT                   Sydney Kamlager-Dove, CA
                                     Seth Magaziner, RI
Lauren Boebert, CO                   Nydia M. Velazquez, NY
Cliff Bentz, OR                      Ed Case, HI
Jen Kiggans, VA                      Debbie Dingell, MI
Jim Moylan, GU                       Susie Lee, NV

Wesley P. Hunt, TX
Mike Collins, GA
Anna Paulina Luna, FL
John Duarte, CA
Harriet M. Hageman, WY

                                     

                                     
                                     
                    Vivian Moeglein, Staff Director
                      Tom Connally, Chief Counsel
                 Lora Snyder, Democratic Staff Director
                   http://naturalresources.house.gov
                                 ------                                

             SUBCOMMITTEE ON WATER, WILDLIFE AND FISHERIES

                       CLIFF BENTZ, OR, Chairman
                      JEN KIGGANS, VA, Vice Chair
                   JARED HUFFMAN, CA, Ranking Member

Robert J. Wittman, VA                Grace F. Napolitano, CA
Tom McClintock, CA                   Mike Levin, CA
Garret Graves, LA                    Mary Sattler Peltola, AK
Aumua Amata C. Radewagen, AS         Kevin Mullin, CA
Doug LaMalfa, CA                     Val T. Hoyle, OR
Daniel Webster, FL                   Seth Magaziner, RI
Jenniffer Gonzalez-Colon, PR         Debbie Dingell, MI
Jerry Carl, AL                       Ruben Gallego, AZ
Lauren Boebert, CO                   Joe Neguse, CO
Jen Kiggans, VA                      Katie Porter, CA
Anna Paulina Luna, FL                Ed Case, HI
John Duarte, CA                      Raul M. Grijalva, AZ, ex officio
Harriet M. Hageman, WY
Bruce Westerman, AR, ex officio

                                 ------                                
                                CONTENTS

                              ----------                              
                                                                   Page

Hearing Memo.....................................................     v
Hearing held on Tuesday, October 8, 2024.........................     1

Statement of Members:

    Bentz, Hon. Cliff, a Representative in Congress from the 
      State of Oregon............................................     4

    Chavez-DeRemer, Hon. Lori, a Representative in Congress from 
      the State of Oregon........................................     6

Statement of Witnesses:

    Brunoe, Robert ``Bobby'', Secretary-Treasurer-CEO, 
      Confederated Tribes of Warm Springs, Warm Springs, Oregon..     8
        Prepared statement of....................................    10

    Backsen, Trish, Farmer and Owner, Oregon Feed and Irrigation, 
      Redmond, Oregon............................................    12
        Prepared statement of....................................    14

    Gaylord, Pat, Oregon Director to the National Society of 
      Professional Surveyors, Professional Land Surveyors of 
      Oregon, Tigard, Oregon.....................................    15
        Prepared statement of....................................    17

    Larkin, Jeff, Owner, Jeff Larkin Reality, Redmond, Oregon....    18
        Prepared statement of....................................    20

    DeBone, Anthony, Commissioner, Deschutes County, Bend, Oregon    24
        Prepared statement of....................................    25

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.epsTo:        Committee on Natural Resources Republican Members

From:     Committee on Natural Resources staff: Annick Miller, x58331 
        ([email protected]), Thomas Shipman (thomas.shipman@ 
        mail.house.gov), and Lindsay Walton 
        ([email protected])

Date:     Tuesday, October 8, 2024

Subject:   Oversight Hearing on ``It All Depends on Water: Examining 
        Efforts to Improve and Protect Central Oregon's Water Supply''
________________________________________________________________________
        _______

    The Subcommittee on Water, Wildlife and Fisheries will hold an 
oversight hearing on ``It All Depends on Water: Examining Efforts to 
Improve and Protect Central Oregon's Water Supply'' on Tuesday, October 
8, 2024, at 10 a.m. (PDT) at the South Sister Conference Center in the 
Deschutes County Fairgrounds in Redmond, Oregon.

    Member offices are requested to notify Madeline Kelley 
(madeline.kelley @mail.house.gov) by 4:30 p.m. on Monday, October 7, 
2024, if their Member intends to participate in the hearing.

I. KEY MESSAGES

     Local water challenges must be met with locally driven 
            solutions.

     The best water conservation solutions are developed by 
            local interests and are tailored to the unique 
            circumstances of each region. These solutions are driven 
            most effectively by genuine incentives rather than the 
            issuance of directives from faraway places.

     In the Deschutes River Basin, we have seen how 
            collaboration between irrigation districts, conservation 
            groups, tribes, cities, and others allow for agriculture to 
            continue while protecting and recovering species.

II. WITNESSES

     Mr. Bobby Brunoe, Secretary-Treasurer, Confederated Tribes 
            of Warm Springs, Warm Springs, OR

     Dr. Trish Backsen, DVM, Farmer and Owner, Oregon Feed and 
            Irrigation, Redmond, OR

     Mr. Jeff Larkin, Owner, Jeff Larkin Realty, Redmond, OR

     Mr. Pat Gaylord, Geomatics Service Excellence Leader, 
            David Evans and Associates, Inc., Happy Valley, OR

     Mr. Anthony DeBone, Commissioner, Deschutes County, Bend, 
            OR

III. BACKGROUND
Deschutes River Basin

    The Deschutes River Basin, located in the heart of central Oregon, 
encompasses more than 10,000 square miles and is the second largest 
watershed in the state.\1\ Its unique positioning--east of the Cascades 
Mountains and west of the Ochoco Mountains--allows for a steep flow 
path, dropping over 4,500 feet to the Columbia River.\2\ The primary 
contributor to the basin is snowpack, which recharges the groundwater 
aquifer and feeds the Upper Deschutes primarily through springs.\3\
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    \1\ Deschutes River Conservancy, ``Get to Know the Deschutes River 
Basin'' https://www.deschutesriver.org/deschutes-basin-101/get-to-know-
the-deschutes-river-basin.
    \2\ Id.
    \3\ Id.

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    Figure 1. Deschutes River Basin. Source: Oregon DEQ

    More than 100 years ago, federal and state policies encouraged the 
settlement of central Oregon's high desert by facilitating access to 
land and irrigation water.\4\ This water has made possible the diverse 
agricultural sector that has helped shape the region. The Deschutes 
River Basin provides water for eight irrigation districts, which 
largely support the agriculture sector, which is critical for the 
region's economy.\5\ Central Oregon was one of the fastest growing 
regions in the United States in 2023 and supports the state's economy 
in many ways.\6\ From 2010 to 2022, Oregon's population increased 
nearly 12 percent; \7\ while Bend and Redmond, Oregon, grew at 34.2 
percent and 43.3 percent, respectively.\8\ The area is also a popular 
tourist destination, with 3.9 million people visiting central Oregon 
annually.\9\ The rapid growth in Jefferson, Deschutes, and Crook 
Counties has put added pressure on the region's water supply to meet 
current and future demands.\10\
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    \4\ U.S. Bureau of Reclamation, ``Upper Deschutes River Basin 
Study,'' October 2019. https://www.usbr.gov/pn/studies/deschutes/
finalstudy.pdf
    \5\ Id.
    \6\ EDCO. 2023 Central Oregon Economic Profile. https://
edcoinfo.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/09/2023-Central-Oregon-Profile-
Final.pdf at 4.
    \7\ Id. at 5.
    \8\ Id.
    \9\ Id.
    \10\ Deschutes River Conservancy. Deschutes Basin 101: Where Does 
the Water Go? https://www.deschutesriver.org/deschutes-basin-101/where-
does-the-water-go
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    Over the past two decades, irrigation districts, governmental 
entities, and conservation groups have collaborated to address these 
issues. Basin stakeholders have collaborated to implement water 
conservation and water marketing projects that restored significant 
flows to basin rivers and streams and aided groundwater uses.

Water Supply Development

    The Bureau of Reclamation (Reclamation) has long been involved in 
constructing and developing water infrastructure along the Deschutes 
River Basin in Oregon. Irrigation is necessary to promote and support 
the agriculture sector. Prior to the popularization of dryland wheat 
production, the basin was primarily devoted to grazing sheep and 
cattle.\11\ While irrigation development started in 1871, Reclamation 
development did not occur until 1914 when a comprehensive report of the 
Deschutes River Basin was issued under the joint sponsorship and 
financing of the State of Oregon and the federal government.\12\
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    \11\ United States Bureau of Reclamation. Deschutes Project. 
https://www.usbr.gov/projects/index.php?id=445&csrt=9101729379384694784
    \12\ Id.
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    The initial investigations for the North Unit Irrigation District 
proposed a project that would have irrigated 133,000 acres; however, 
due to funding restraints associated with World War I, construction 
never took place.\13\ Reclamation continued its efforts to develop the 
Deschutes River Basin water infrastructure and made significant 
progress after a 1936 study was published that explored all storage 
possibilities above the Crooked River.\14\ In tandem with this study, 
the Deschutes Project was authorized in 1937 by the Secretary of the 
Interior.
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    \13\ Id.
    \14\ Id.
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    Construction on the North Unit Main Canal began in 1938 and on the 
Wickiup and Crane Prairie Dams in 1939. The canal and Crane Prairie Dam 
were completed on time; however, Wickiup suffered significant delays 
due to complications during World War II.\15\ The last dam completed as 
part of this project was the Haystack Dam, which began construction in 
1956 and was completed the following year. While the authorized purpose 
of this project is irrigation, the dams provide an additional benefit 
of flood control.
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    \15\ Id.
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    These dams collectively store more than 250,000 acre-feet of water, 
with the largest, Wickiup, storing up to 200,000 acre-feet.\16\ This 
water is primarily irrigated to produce grain, hay, pasture, mint, 
potatoes, and seeds.\17\ As part of the project, water is diverted from 
the Wickiup Reservoir into the North Unit Main Canal and pumped over 40 
miles north to Haystack Dam, where it is stored until needed for 
irrigation. To the northeast of Redmond is the Crooked River Pumping 
Plant, where water is pumped 150 feet from the Crooked River Gorge into 
the North United Main Canal to provide additional irrigation 
capacity.\18\ Construction of the pumping plant was completed in 
1968.\19\
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    \16\ United States Bureau of Reclamation. The Story of the 
Deschutes Project. https://www.usbr.gov/projects/pdf.php?id=223
    \17\ Id.
    \18\ United States Bureau of Reclamation. Deschutes Project. 1996. 
https://www.usbr.gov/projects/pdf.php?id=112
    \19\ Id.
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    The Central Oregon Irrigation District and the North Unit 
Irrigation District are currently engaged in a multi-year process to 
pipe water from the Pilot Butte Canal to bring additional water 
resources to the region's multiple water users.\20\ This project will 
bring many benefits to central Oregon: more than 3,000 jobs, improved 
habitat for fish and wildlife in the region, and a more reliable water 
supply to the region's farmers.\21\
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    \20\ Central Oregon Irrigation District. Formal Public Scoping 
Meeting. Pilot Butte Watershed Plan/Environmental Impact Statement. 
July 19, 2022. https://coidpiping.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/07/COID-
formal-scoping-meeting_final_.07.20.22.pdf
    \21\ Id.
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Water Certainty and Endangered Species Act Compliance

    The Deschutes River Basin, like many other river systems in the 
American West, has faced significant challenges in complying with the 
Endangered Species Act (ESA). Farmers in the region have faced risks 
and uncertainties to their water supplies for years. However, almost 
two decades ago, the eight irrigation districts in the basin (organized 
as the Deschutes Basin Board of Control or DBBC) began to develop a 
long-term plan that would provide certainty for agricultural water 
supplies while, at the same time, water for the listed species.
    The Deschutes Basin Habitat Conservation Plan (HCP) was the product 
of 12 years of scientific study, hard work, and collaboration between 
irrigators, federal and state agencies, the Confederated Tribes of the 
Warm Springs Reservation, cities, counties, multiple non-governmental 
organizations, and the public in the Deschutes Basin.\22\
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    \22\ Testimony of Dan Keppen, Executive Director of Family Farm 
Alliance, before the House Subcommittee on Water, Wildlife and 
Fisheries, March 8, 2023. https://docs.house.gov/meetings/II/II13/
20230308/115450/HHRG-118-II13-Wstate-KeppenD-20230308.pdf.

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    .epsFigure 2. Map of Deschutes Basin. Source: USFWS

    An HCP is a ``planning document designed to accommodate economic 
development to the extent possible by authorizing the limited and 
unintentional take of listed species when it occurs incidental to 
lawful activities.'' \23\ Finalized in 2020, the Deschutes HCP covers 
approximately 10,500 square miles of land in central Oregon and has a 
30-year term.\24\ It provides a pathway and timeline for modernizing 
the DBBC's water delivery systems through canal piping and other 
projects.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \23\ ``Habitat Conservation Plans.'' U.S. Fish and Wildlife 
Service. Habitat Conservation Plans / U.S. Fish & Wildlife Service 
(fws.gov)
    \24\ ``Deschutes River Basin Habitat Conservation Plan.'' U.S. Fish 
and Wildlife Service. Deschutes River Basin Habitat Conservation Plan / 
U.S. Fish & Wildlife Service (fws.gov)

    In exchange for the commitments to conserve water over time through 
the HCP, the DBBC districts are authorized to continue to access their 
water supplies without running afoul of the ESA. As required under the 
HCP, the DBBC districts and irrigators are making significant financial 
investments to implement water conservation measures, such as canal 
piping.\25\
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    \25\ Id.

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Federal Lands Management and Water Supply

    Forests play a critical role in watershed health and are key to 
ensuring safe and reliable supplies of clean drinking water across the 
United States. In Oregon, more than 32 million acres, constituting 
roughly 53 percent of the land base, are owned by the federal 
government,\26\ making federal land management, particularly forest 
management, critically important for water supply.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \26\ Congressional Research Service, ``Federal Land Ownership: 
Overview and Data,'' February 21, 2020, R42346, https://
crsreports.congress.gov/product/pdf/R/R42346.

    Across the country, more than one billion acres are at risk of 
wildland fire.\27\ Federal land management agencies have identified 117 
million acres of federal land at high or very high risk for wildfire, 
representing nearly one-fifth of the overall land they oversee.\28\ 
These high-risk federal forests are overloaded with dangerous dry fuels 
that have been allowed to accumulate through a century of fire 
suppression combined with a lack of thinning, prescribed burns, and 
mechanical treatments.\29\ Overstocking makes forests less resilient by 
increasing competition among trees for the water, minerals, and 
sunlight necessary to sustain a healthy forest. The West's 
unprecedented drought has further weakened overgrown national forests, 
leaving them extremely vulnerable to wildfire. Recent research has 
shown that some areas are experiencing the driest conditions in 1,200 
years.\30\ These conditions have turned vast swaths of the nation's 
forests into ticking time bombs that can ignite with a single spark. It 
is no longer a matter of ``if'' these areas will experience 
catastrophic wildfire but ``when.''
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \27\ Testimony of Christopher French, Deputy Chief, U.S. Forest 
Service, before the Senate Energy and Natural Resources Committee, June 
24, 2021, https://www.energy.senate.gov/services/files/AAF7DF40-2A47-
4951-ADA4-4B124AD3894F.
    \28\ Hoover, Katie, ``Federal Wildfire Management: Ten-Year Funding 
Trends and Issues (FY2011-FY2020),'' October 28, 2020, CRS, R46583.
    \29\ Ingram, Robert G. ``Robert G. Ingram: Forest Fuel Management-
the Ugly Truth.'' TheUnion.com, October 9, 2020, https://
www.theunion.com/opinion/columns/robert-g-ingram-forest-fuel-
management-the-ugly-truth/.
    \30\ Id.

    Oregon is no exception. The state has experienced exceptional 
drought, with the past two decades labeled as ``the worst megadrought 
on record.'' \31\ The semi-arid climate, combined with Oregon's 
geology, makes drought recovery that much more difficult, as the need 
to recharge the deficit of water in the aquifers.\32\ Additionally, the 
ever-persistent wildfires in the Deschutes National Forest have 
severely damaged central Oregon's recreation and tourism 
industries.\33\ These dynamics--the ecological importance of the basin, 
the many ways this region influences the state's economy, and the 
anticipated increase in resources that will be needed due to population 
increases--highlight the importance of actively managing the 
watershed's environment and infrastructure. To balance the interests of 
the many stakeholders that are end users of the basin's water, the 
region has a long history of collaboration between conservation groups, 
the agriculture sector, and others across the region.\34\ That 
collaboration and engagement provide many lessons that can be applied 
at the federal level.
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    \31\ State of Oregon Official Website. Oregon Drought. https://
www.oregon.gov/owrd/programs/climate/droughtwatch/Pages/default.aspx.
    \32\ Deschutes River Conservancy. Bend Bulletin--Central Oregon 
gets a break from drought, but threats still loom. June 15, 2024. 
https://www.deschutesriver.org/in-the-media/bend-bulletin---central-
oregon-gets-a-break-from-drought-but-threats-still-loom
    \33\ United States Forest Service. Wildfire Crisis Strategy: 
Central Oregon Landscape. https://www.fs.usda.gov/detail/deschutes/
landmanagement/resourcemanagement/?cid=fseprd1070210
    \34\ Deschutes River Basin Building Formal Collaboratives to 
Leverage Federal Funding. https://www.rivernetwork.org/wp-content/
uploads/2023/03/deschutes-river-amp-case-study-river-network.pdf
                                     



OVERSIGHT FIELD HEARING ON ``IT ALL DEPENDS ON WATER: EXAMINING EFFORTS



         TO IMPROVE AND PROTECT CENTRAL OREGON'S WATER SUPPLY''

                              ----------                              


                        Tuesday, October 8, 2024

                     U.S. House of Representatives

             Subcommittee on Water, Wildlife and Fisheries

                     Committee on Natural Resources

                            Redmond, Oregon

                              ----------                              

    The Subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 10:05 a.m., in 
Deschutes County Fairgrounds, 3800 SW Airport Way, Redmond, 
Oregon, Hon. Cliff Bentz [Chairman of the Subcommittee] 
presiding.
    Present: Representatives Bentz, Chavez-DeRemer, Maloy, 
Newhouse; and Hoyle.

    Mr. Bentz. The Subcommittee on Water, Wildlife and 
Fisheries will come to order.
    Without objection, the Chair is authorized to declare a 
recess of the Subcommittee at any time.
    Good morning, everyone. I want to welcome our witnesses, 
Members, and our guests in the audience to today's hearing. The 
Subcommittee is meeting today in Redmond, Oregon for an 
oversight field hearing entitled, ``It All Depends on Water: 
Examining Efforts to Improve and Protect Central Oregon's Water 
Supply.''
    It is great to be in my home state of Oregon. While many of 
you know me, for those that don't, I am Cliff Bentz, the 
Chairman of the Subcommittee on Water, Wildlife and Fisheries. 
I am grateful to be joined today by several Members who 
represent various regions. Therefore, I ask unanimous consent 
that the gentlewoman from Oregon and our host today, Mrs. 
Chavez-DeRemer; the gentleman from Washington, Mr. Newhouse; 
and the gentlewoman from Utah, Ms. Maloy be allowed to 
participate in today's hearing.
    Without objection, so ordered.
    I also ask unanimous consent that all other Members' 
opening statements be made part of the hearing record if they 
are submitted in accordance with Committee Rule 3(o).
    Without objection, so ordered.
    Ladies and gentleman, please stand and remove your hats for 
the presentation of the colors and the playing of the national 
anthem. They will also lead us in the Pledge of Allegiance. The 
colors are presented by cadets Sam Case, Tracon Statler, and 
Chloe Berkeley of the Redmond High School Marine Corps Junior 
ROTC color guard commanded by Cadet First Lieutenant Simon 
Lavery. Please remain standing and silent until the color guard 
has left the floor.
    [Colors are presented.]
    Mr. Bentz. Please recognize them with a round of applause.
    [Applause.]
    Mr. Bentz. I thank all of you for being here. Congresswoman 
Chavez-DeRemer, as the Congressional Member representing this 
part of Oregon, has the distinct privilege of formally 
welcoming you to today's hearing.
    I yield to you, Congresswoman Chavez-DeRemer.
    Mrs. Chavez-DeRemer. Thank you, Chairman. Good morning. I 
cannot thank you enough for being here today. Thank you, 
Chairman, the Natural Resources Committee, and all of our 
guests.
    I represent Oregon's 5th Congressional District, which is 
inclusive of Redmond, Bend, Sun River, Sisters, and all the way 
from Portland, as well. It is my distinct pleasure to be here 
today to welcome the Natural Resources Committee.
    I do want to take one moment to recognize a few of our 
guests in the audience today.
    Commissioner Tony DeBone, who will be testifying, thank you 
for being here. Commissioner Patti Adair is here as well, and 
Commissioner Phil Chang. Thank you for being here and 
participating.
    With that, I will yield back.
    Mr. Bentz. Thank you. As I am sure all of you know, 
arranging a field hearing is a lot of work, and I want to call 
out most of those that deserve recognition, because I may not 
know all of them.
    But the National Resources Committee staff is here from DC. 
I much appreciate their hard work. Our team of professional 
sound and communication folks have traveled out from 
Washington, DC to set up the sound and communication systems. 
They are the ones making sure that whatever we say here today, 
no matter how unwise or regrettable, is instantly available for 
all the world to see and hear. Remember what you say you won't 
be able to take back.
    [Laughter.]
    Mr. Bentz. The address to enter on your cell phones if you 
wish to see this hearing online is NaturalResources.House.gov. 
Again, if you have folks that want to watch this online, have 
them go to NaturalResources.House.gov.
    I also want to thank our law enforcement folks for being 
here. We deeply appreciate you taking the time to be with us. 
And that would be the Redmond police and the Deschutes County 
Sheriff's Office.
    Finally, I want to thank the Deschutes County Fairgrounds 
for letting us use this beautiful, beautiful facility.
    Let me point out that we welcome your written comments on 
issues that will be discussed in this meeting. The contact 
information email and mail addresses are available at the desk 
where you came in or here after the hearing, if you want to 
send us your thoughts.
    Please let me point out that this is not a town hall 
meeting. It is a congressional hearing designed to provide 
information to Members of Congress attending and to members of 
public present and those who are watching and listening online. 
The only people who will be speaking today are Members of 
Congress and the witnesses you see in front of you on the 
stage. The witnesses will be recognized and asked to speak, and 
shall do so without interruption. If a member of the audience 
has something to add, they may do so in writing and by sending 
their comments to us. We value those comments, so if you have 
some thoughts, and I hope you do, during what you hear today, 
share them in writing with us.
    And to quote my friend and one of my predecessors, 
Congressman Bob Smith, ``Anyone who chooses to interrupt 
without being recognized will not remain in this room very 
long.'' So, hopefully, we will have a civilized discussion of 
these incredibly important issues.
    This is my 5th field hearing that this Subcommittee has had 
since I became Chair. It is the first time I have had the 
opportunity to hold a Subcommittee hearing in my state. As 
nearly as we can tell, this is the first field hearing held by 
a Congressional House Subcommittee in Oregon's 5th District in 
about 20 years. It is a pleasure to be here, and I want to 
thank Congresswoman Lori Chavez-DeRemer and her staff for their 
help in arranging this field hearing and allowing us to do so 
in Congressional District 5.
    I am also pleased to note that today's hearing is 
bipartisan, and that is because we have Congresswoman Val Hoyle 
joining us from Oregon's 4th Congressional District. Val and I 
served in the Oregon House together, so I know that she has an 
extensive background in forestry and water-related issues.
    Welcome, Congresswoman Hoyle.
    I now am going to ask each of the Members to briefly 
introduce themselves and say what committees they are on, and 
where they are from.
    Congresswoman Chavez-DeRemer.
    Mrs. Chavez-DeRemer. Thank you. Again, Lori Chavez-DeRemer, 
I represent Oregon's 5th Congressional District. I serve on the 
Agriculture Committee, Transportation and Infrastructure, 
Education and Workforce, and many of the subcommittees. And I 
am on the Subcommittee on Forestry and Water through the Ag 
Committee, so this is very important to my district, very 
important to the state of Oregon, and I am just grateful to be 
here and welcome my colleagues from across the country.
    Ms. Hoyle. Hi, I am Congresswoman Val Hoyle. I represent 
Oregon's 4th Congressional District, which encompasses just 
over 17,000 square miles: Curry, Coos, the half of Douglas 
County that Representative Bentz does not represent, and Lane, 
Lincoln, and Benton counties. I am very grateful to be here. I 
am on the Natural Resources Committee and on this Subcommittee, 
so I felt like it is important to show up. Forestry and water 
issues are absolutely critical, and I want to thank everyone 
for being here today, and I am looking forward to the 
discussion.
    Mr. Newhouse. Thank you, Chairman Bentz. My name is Dan 
Newhouse. I represent Washington's 4th Congressional District, 
which is just north of you. It is the central third of the 
state of Washington. I am one of the few farmers in Congress, 
and very proud of that fact. The committees I sit on, I am on 
Appropriations and on Appropriations I have three 
subcommittees: Homeland Security, Energy and Water, and, of 
course, Agriculture. I also sit on the Select Committee on 
China, a committee that has been put together to look at the 
threats that the Communist Chinese Party poses to the United 
States. I am Chairman of the Congressional Western Caucus, and 
the issues that we focus on in the Western Caucus are very 
similar to what we are going to be talking about today, so I am 
very excited to learn what is going on in the Deschutes River 
Basin. Thank you for having us today, and thanks for such a 
great turnout.
    Ms. Maloy. Hi, I am Celeste Maloy. I represent the 2nd 
District in Utah. I am on the Transportation and Infrastructure 
Committee with Lori Chavez-DeRemer, and I am also on the Small 
Business Committee. My district in Utah is very dry and very 
natural resources-dependent, so I am excited to be here today 
and be part of this hearing. And I am always excited when there 
is a field hearing and people get to watch Congress work in 
their own state, in their own district. So, thank you for 
letting me be part of this today.
    Mr. Bentz. Thank you. As I indicated before, I am Cliff 
Bentz. I live in Ontario with my wife. We have two kids that we 
have successfully managed to move out of our home.
    [Laughter.]
    Mr. Bentz. But my background is in law, and in water in 
particular, but lots of discussion in my law firm over how to 
manage to get people to work together. And I focused my last 10 
years of practice on trying to resolve farm and ranch success 
and issues. So, the discussions about how we come to agreement 
are normal for me.
    I also enjoy owning a 120-acre farm that is under the 
Owyhee Reservoir, so I have a personal interest in how water is 
dealt with. And, of course, my family, having grown up on a 
cattle ranch, many of them, three of my younger brothers are 
still involved in that space.
    I am now going to recognize myself for an opening 
statement.

STATEMENT OF THE HON. CLIFF BENTZ, A REPRESENTATIVE IN CONGRESS 
                    FROM THE STATE OF OREGON

    Mr. Bentz. Our purpose today is to hear about challenges 
facing Central Oregon when it comes to water, with a specific 
focus on jurisdiction, supply, access, and use.
    It used to be that the Oregon Water Resources Department, a 
state not Federal agency, had the final say about water. This 
was because water use was viewed pretty much as a local issue. 
Local control over water is a really good idea, but I can 
assure you use of water is no longer controlled by local 
people. Federal laws such as the ESA, Clean Water Act, NEPA, 
the Northwest Power Act, and Federal court decisions such as 
the Winters case have pushed aside state laws, leaving 
executive branch bureaucrats and Federal judges masters of our 
waters.
    Perhaps reversal of the Chevron case will change things, 
but Federal laws now give the Federal Government significant, 
if not final, authority many times over how much and when we 
can use much of our water. But the final word over control of 
water does not have to be surrendered to agencies and judges. 
We are here because it is our belief that with your help and 
insight we can develop legislation that returns at least some 
of the control over water to the state and the people who live 
here.
    But if we are to create legislation that addresses water 
issues, we need to know what has and what hasn't worked in your 
basin. It has been my observation over the past 30 years that, 
although not perfect, the Deschutes community has usually found 
a way to deal with extremely difficult water allocation 
problems. Other basins have not been so fortunate: the Klamath 
comes to mind, Central Valley in California, the Colorado, the 
Rio Grande. In these places we see never-ending, multi-million-
dollar litigation or severe damage to thousands of farm workers 
and farmers as their water is cut off, or never-ending 
uncertainty as to when farmers' annual water allocation might 
be developed, or short-term fixes that usually take big heaps 
of Federal money, a very expensive Band-Aid.
    To a certain extent, your basin has avoided these slow-
moving water management disasters, so we look forward to 
hearing how you did it. We don't expect our panel to provide 
instant solutions to the problems we may discuss, but I would 
ask that Members describe the tools they have used to build 
consensus. Many issues will come up in this hearing, but here 
are several I hope the panel chooses to address.
    Additional water from the Deschutes Basin watershed. Your 
basin is the second largest watershed in Oregon, measuring 
10,500 square miles in size. That is almost 7 million acres. 
Fifty-one percent of that land is owned by the Federal 
Government. Many thousands of those Federal acres are overgrown 
with forest understory, putting the forest, animals that live 
in it, land, communities, and water at risk. Thousands of trees 
per acre slurp up groundwater, releasing it into the air 
through transpiration. Is protection and perhaps even 
increasing your basin's water supply a path we can use to get 
back into the woods? Can we help tribes better use their 
political power to get back into the forest for restoration 
activities at scale?
    I am pleased that we have Bobby Brunoe of the Confederated 
Tribes of Warm Springs here today to address this possibility.
    Should people in communities whose ancestors were enticed 
by the government water storage policy to move into this basin 
when it was a desert be incentivized to reverse course as 
political winds change and government takes their water away? 
This basin is facing this issue head on, first of all, by 
recognizing that farmers are being damaged by the ESA, and then 
by designing means of reducing and mitigating against that 
damage. Solutions include piping up canals, the HCP, drought 
relief support, and congressional involvement such as this 
hearing today.
    I am pleased that we have Dr. Trish Backsen, a 
veterinarian, owner of Oregon Feed and Irrigation; and Jeff 
Larkin of Jeff Larkin Realty here with us to discuss the 
solutions and problems that water demand, drought, and the ESA 
have brought about.
    What new tools are available to address water supply and 
allocation? Will artificial intelligence play a part? I am sure 
that it will, not the least in the area of water modeling, 
adjusting water delivery, and in helping to identify new 
sustainable sources of water. But an obvious opportunity for 
the use of AI is applying it to sorting out the myriad of water 
trading and exchange opportunities which lie buried in the 
complexities of intra-district mapping, difference in water 
delivery timing, diversion locations, water right priorities, 
and on and on.
    Figuring this out using district personnel would take 
literally forever, but with AI it could take seconds. And we 
cannot forget the new satellite and software technology that 
exists to identify areas amenable to aquifer recharge, machines 
which can penetrate some 1,200 feet into the ground using 
magnetic resonance technology, can now pinpoint places on the 
ground where water could be absorbed, or use of similar new 
systems to identify areas of forest most likely to produce more 
runoff if restored to normal tree numbers.
    Happily, we have Mr. Pat Gaylord of David Evans and 
Associates with us today to address some of these 
opportunities.
    Finally, let me mention groundwater, an issue the Federal 
Government, with very good reason, has stayed away from for 
years. But that has changed. And part of that change is based 
on an abject failure of the Federal Government to recognize 
that if its Federal laws, such as the ESA, took surface water 
away, there would be an immediate and totally foreseeable shift 
to groundwater. And the link between groundwater and surface 
water, variable though as to time, is becoming more clearly 
understood. It is this connection that the Federal Government 
is using to force the state of Oregon to regulate groundwater.
    Indirect and non-local Federal management of groundwater is 
not a good thing, and is most certainly not a precise thing. 
The question is, will states step up to reassert their 
authority over their water? It has been sad to watch Oregon 
become an agent of the Federal Government, and used to enforce 
the Endangered Species Act as to surface and groundwater down 
in the Klamath. Is this basin going to watch the same thing 
happen here?
    You should know that folks losing their house wells to 
dropping aquifers have been asking if the Federal Government is 
shutting down groundwater use in Klamath to protect fish, then 
why doesn't the Federal Government act to protect domestic 
wells? I don't think that the Federal Government should be 
taking control over our groundwater, but the situation is 
complicated.
    We are fortunate to have Commissioner Tony DeBone here to 
help us discuss how Deschutes County is addressing these 
difficult issues of local versus Federal authority.
    And I don't want to place all the burden on Commissioner 
DeBone. I want all the members of the panel to weigh in on 
these difficult issues.
    With that, I recognize Congresswoman Chavez-DeRemer for an 
opening statement.

STATEMENT OF THE HON. LORI CHAVEZ-DeREMER, A REPRESENTATIVE IN 
               CONGRESS FROM THE STATE OF OREGON

    Mrs. Chavez-DeRemer. Thank you, Chairman Bentz. Hi, 
everyone. And again, thank you for being with us today in 
Redmond.
    I just want to start out by saying thank you to the 
Chairman for bringing the Water, Wildlife and Fisheries 
Subcommittee to Deschutes County to spotlight this area and the 
good work you all are doing.
    I also want to thank my colleagues again who have traveled 
from across the country to be here today because they also 
realize the value of collaboration and certainty in our 
community's water supply. Again, Celeste and Dan, my 
colleagues, thank you for traveling out of your states and into 
our state to recognize how important this issue is.
    Today, we are going to talk about Central Oregon's current 
and future water supply. We are going to discuss the challenges 
that have hit this area that are not unfamiliar for our West 
Coast friends. Years' long droughts, wildfires, and changing 
climate have forced water users in our basin to be creative in 
their approach. This summer has been no different, with the 
most expensive fire season on record for Oregon and the eastern 
side of the state being hit the hardest.
    Deschutes County has, unfortunately, seen its fair share of 
devastation due to the Darleen III and the Little Lava Fires. 
These events underscore the need for better land management and 
a strong workforce, two things I have been proud to advocate 
for and support in the bipartisan 2024 farm bill. The farm bill 
included provisions that will encourage active and healthy 
forest management to help reduce the risk of wildfire, while 
still protecting the surrounding environment. And to do that 
management, we need a strong and dependable workforce.
    I am proud to say that my bipartisan bill, the Jobs in the 
Woods Act, was included in the farm bill, and will help address 
labor shortages in the forestry and conservation sectors. I 
know just how important this work is because healthy forests 
contribute to healthy watersheds. Without that, your work as 
farmers, ranchers, and conservationists, and frankly, just 
those who care about the environment you live in, becomes much 
more difficult. Nevertheless, I am proud to say that the 
Deschutes Basin has been a poster child for effective 
collaboration.
    But before we dig into the collaborative work, I want to 
take a few steps back and talk about how we got here. Bend, 
Oregon and the entirety of Deschutes County has seen rapid 
growth, nearly doubling in population in the last 20 years. 
However, with such rapid growth comes growing pains. This area 
has not been immune from the lack of affordable housing and 
skyrocketing costs, not to mention the challenges of accessing 
affordable child care. Yet, remarkably, water usage here has 
stayed nearly the same.
    While the outlook in the early 2000s was bleak, the basin 
has made tremendous progress, thanks to the collaboration from 
unlikely sources. Many groups have come together realizing that 
negotiating a compromise is far more appealing than fighting it 
out in court for years on end. This basin has seen cooperation 
between farmers, conservationists, and municipal users, not to 
mention the partnership between those with senior and junior 
water rights.
    I believe in the work these groups are doing, which is why 
I introduced H.R. 8428, the Deschutes River Conservancy Act, 
which would reauthorize the DRC working group for the next 10 
years. The DRC has brought together a diverse group of 
stakeholders, including those in agriculture, hydroelectric 
production, the environmental community, the tribal community, 
and the representation from our state and Federal Government. 
This collective group has found creative solutions to the 
growing demands for water without forcing one faction to suffer 
at the expense of others.
    I have also been very supportive of a PL-566 program that 
has resulted in millions of dollars being granted to the 
irrigation districts here to fund the canal piping projects. As 
a result, nearly 25 miles of irrigation canals have been piped, 
conserving nearly 15,000 acre-feet of water annually. However, 
there is plenty of work to be done. We will hear more about 
some of this work from our witnesses, as well.
    I also want to give credit to our local governments. The 
cities Redmond and Bend have been creative in this challenge by 
incentivizing residents to reduce unnecessary water usage in 
the lawns, and promoting drought-tolerant vegetation instead. I 
don't need to remind you all how important water is for 
farming, for drinking, for wildlife habitat, for fighting 
wildfires, and for life, which is why I am excited to have 
convened this hearing today, and for us to dive into more 
solutions to protect our water supply here in Central Oregon 
and be a model for the West.
    And with that, I yield the remainder of my time, Mr. 
Chairman.
    Mr. Bentz. Thank you. I will now introduce our witnesses.
    Mr. Bobby Brunoe, Secretary-Treasurer-CEO of the 
Confederated Tribes of Warm Springs in Warm Springs; Dr. Trisha 
Backsen, farmer and owner of Oregon Feed and Irrigation in 
Redmond; Mr. Pat Gaylord, Oregon Director to the National 
Society of Professional Surveyors of the Professional Land 
Surveyors of Oregon in Tigard; Mr. Jeff Larkin, owner of the 
Jeff Larkin Realty in Redmond; and Mr. Anthony DeBone, 
Commissioner of Deschutes County in Bend.

    Let me remind the witnesses that under Committee Rules, you 
must limit your oral statements to 5 minutes, but your entire 
statement will appear in the hearing record.
    We use timing lights. When you begin, the light will turn 
green. When you have 1 minute remaining, the light will turn 
yellow. And at the end of 5 minutes, the light will turn red, 
and I will ask you to please complete your statement.
    I will also allow all witnesses to testify before Members 
ask their questions.
    I now recognize Mr. Brunoe for 5 minutes.

STATEMENT OF ROBERT ``BOBBY'' BRUNOE, SECRETARY-TREASURER-CEO, 
   CONFEDERATED TRIBES OF WARM SPRINGS, WARM SPRINGS, OREGON

    Mr. Brunoe. Thank you, Congressman.
    [Speaking Native language.] That means good morning in our 
Wasco language, so thank you all for having me here today to 
speak. I am Bobby Brunoe, Secretary-Treasurer-CEO for the 
Confederated Tribes of Warm Springs.
    I wanted to go through a couple of different things with 
everyone today, and the first is who the Confederated Tribes of 
Warm Springs is. The Confederated Tribes of Warm Springs is a 
tribe made up of three tribes: the Warm Springs Tribe, the 
Wasco Tribe, and the Paiute Tribe. We have a treaty of 1855 
signed on June 25, and it reserved rights for the tribes to 
fish, hunt, gather our cultural foods, and to pasture livestock 
on unclaimed lands. It also defines where some of these areas 
are.
    We ceded lands to the U.S. Government, 10 million acres, 
which takes in most of this basin, Deschutes Basin, all of the 
Hood River Basin, and all of the John Day Basin. So, it is a 
very large area that we have reserved rights. The important 
word there is ``reserved rights,'' so that is the tribes.
    We come from the Columbia River. Celilo Falls, which is now 
under water from the Dalles Dam, our homeland is the Columbia 
River, up and down the Columbia River. So, that is where we 
come from. So, a little bit about the tribes and who we are and 
where we come from.
    A bit of our culture, there are gifts that the Creator gave 
us, and those gifts are in order. The No. 1 gift the Creator 
gave to us, and these are gifts that we are to take care of and 
always look after forever, is water. Water is the No. 1 gift. 
And a lot of this discussion today is about water and why it is 
important to all of us. And it is something that you will hear 
me talk more about as I am going through my talk here. So, that 
is the No. 1 gift.
    The second gift is the fish. And that is the salmon and all 
the fish in the river.
    Third is the deer and the wildlife.
    And the fourth is our cultural foods, that being our roots 
and berries and medicinal plants.
    So, these are in order for us: water, fish, wildlife, and 
then our traditional foods. These are things that we are 
supposed to be looking after. And working in natural resources 
all the years I have, this is something that is in our minds, 
that we teach our people. We teach new people that come to work 
for us that are non-tribal how important these are to us and we 
need to take care of these gifts. So, a little bit about the 
tribes and our culture.
    Next is good neighbors, and being good neighbors with 
everyone around us. The tribes, we are going to be here 
forever, and so are all our neighbors, so we need to work 
together and come up with good solutions as we work through 
these challenging times, and with climate change, and with 
water concerns, and trying to balance these with all of our 
communities around us.
    The tribes also own a hydroelectric project, and partners 
with Portland General Electric. We are a 49.99 percent owner of 
the project with Portland General Electric. This is the Pelton 
Project, which are three dams north of us here on the Deschutes 
River. And one of the reasons the tribes are very interested in 
partners in that is because of fish passage. We want to be able 
to see those fish and the salmon get above the dams.
    So, collaboration. The Deschutes River Conservancy is a 
group that the tribes and the irrigation districts are charter 
members of and started back in 1996. And I start there because 
that was something we all worked on hard, and then there was 
the Water Collaborative, which is a group that I am one of the 
co-chairs on right now. We work to balance water for our 
communities, for Ags, the cities, the environmental groups, 
conservation groups, private citizens. We have private citizens 
that are part of this group, and it is a very important group 
that we work with.
    And you have probably heard a little bit about the Water 
Collaborative and all the work that we are doing. That is a big 
piece. A lot of folks I see out in the audience I recognize 
that are part of this group here, and we work really well 
together, and I believe we are a model for the basin and for 
the state.
    Forestry issues. There are a lot of challenges there. We 
have a lot of work that needs to be done. And with forest 
health we have three forests that are against the boundaries of 
the reservation: Mount Hood, Willamette, and the Deschutes. And 
we always have challenges with fire. So, how do we work with 
things for the tribes, for Tribal Forest Protection Act, and 
being able to do good forest health work on those forests and 
working in these upper watersheds so we have good, clean water 
that we can capture with these systems there? Thank you.

    [The prepared statement of Mr. Brunoe follows:]
     Prepared Statement of Bobby Brunoe, Secretary-Treasurer/CEO, 
                  Confederated Tribes of Warm Springs

    My name is Bobby Brunoe. I am an enrolled member of the 
Confederated Tribes of Warm Springs, and I currently serve as 
Secretary-Treasurer/CEO for the Tribes. Previously, for 24 years, I 
served as the General Manager of the Tribes' Branch of Natural 
Resources.
    Welcome to our ancestral lands, within the 10 million acres that 
our ancestors ceded to the U.S. government in the Treaty of June 25, 
1855, with the Tribes of Middle Oregon. This area goes from the crest 
of the Cascade Mountains to our west, to the Columbia River and east to 
what is now Baker County. Warm Springs tribal members continue to 
exercise our inherent sovereignty and treaty rights throughout that 
territory, including the right to fish at our usual and accustomed 
locations and the right to hunt and gather on unclaimed lands.
    Our historic territory is largely defined by watersheds, where our 
people have been nourished by its fish. Water is of the utmost 
importance to us--it sustains all life on earth. In our language, water 
is called ``chuush''. In our religious practice, water is consumed to 
unify all of our First Foods: salmon, deer and elk; root vegetables and 
berries. They are all interconnected and we manage the land and 
watershed for their health. Water is the first gift of the creator and 
we continue to place it at the forefront of our lives, planning and 
natural resources management.
    I mention this because it echoes the title of this hearing: ``It 
All Depends on Water.'' We agree. Warm Springs has dedicated 
significant time and resources to working with our neighbors to improve 
the use of water in the Deschutes River Basin to meet current and 
future needs. Striking that balance is a growing challenge and requires 
real collaboration.
    The Deschutes River forms the eastern boundary of the Reservation. 
We rely on the Deschutes River as the source of our drinking water for 
the Warm Springs community. Our point of diversion is located in the 
lower Deschutes River, below rapidly growing communities like Bend and 
here in Redmond. We are also located below thousands of acres of 
irrigated agriculture.
    Snowmelt high in the Cascade Mountains has traditionally been the 
principal source of water for the Deschutes River. We, however, receive 
less snow now and have been suffering through persistent drought, which 
is affecting the Deschutes River flows and those of its tributaries, 
such as the Crooked River and the Metolius River. The drought is 
worsening the water quality issues throughout the Deschutes Basin. 
According to a recent Indian Health Service report, our drinking water 
rivals some of the best in the nation; however, the drought poses a 
very real threat to this positive progress.
Hydroelectric Power
    The Warm Springs Tribes are 49.99% owner of the 500-megawatt Pelton 
Round Butte Hydroelectric Project, which consists of three dams in the 
Deschutes River canyon north of here. The revenues derived from power 
sales from this project supplies critical resources to support the 
well-being of our community.
    The fact that we now serve as an equal partner and voice concerning 
the management of the hydroelectric project is critical, because our 
traditional knowledge was left out of the decision to construct the 
dams in the first place so many years ago. Our role now helps to ensure 
responsible management of our sacred water resources and fish 
populations through thousands of years of ecological and cultural 
expertise.
    We are working continuously with our partner, Portland General 
Electric, to improve fish out-migration and passage previously blocked 
for 50 years by the hydroelectric project. Together with PGE, we built 
a $108 million Selective Water Withdrawal system. The 278-foot tall 
structure allows us to attract migrating fish above the dam for 
collection, and to move them downstream. It also allows us to control 
the temperature of water released into the Deschutes River to optimize 
seasonal conditions for fish. The results have been extremely 
successful. In 2022, we were able to reintroduce more than 700 Chinook 
into the upper basin. To this day, they have been observed to spawn 
naturally and their offspring are now on their way to the ocean. And 
this program has helped to multiply efforts in the upper and middle 
Deschutes basin to restore streamflow and watershed functions, which in 
turn has improved water quality and generated numerous benefits in the 
region.
Collaboration
    We collaborate closely with our neighbors to manage the Deschutes 
Basin and its bounty of precious resources, yielding benefits to fish 
and to water quality and quantity. In 2018, the Warm Springs Tribes and 
the State of Oregon convened a water summit, which resulted in the 
Deschutes Basin Water Collaborative. This group includes state and 
federal agencies, cities, counties, irrigation districts, conservation 
organizations, and even the League of Women Voters.
    As co-chair of the Collaborative, we are identifying real-world 
solutions to reduce needless water consumption and loss, improve 
efficiency and keep more water--and better quality water--in the river 
for fish. A key part of the Collaborative's mission is the development 
of a comprehensive Deschutes Basin Water Plan that is aligned with the 
State's integrated water resources planning model. Our initial focus is 
on implementing activities on the Upper and Middle Deschutes River.
    Warm Springs is also a founding member of the Deschutes River 
Conservancy (``DRC''), which was established in the early 1990s, and I 
am currently chairman of the organization. The DRC is a textbook 
example of placed-based decision-making infrastructure. One area where 
the DRC has been successful is restoring summer streamflow in the 
Deschutes River downstream of Bend. DRC's cooperative efforts with 
local irrigators have restored almost 135 cubic feet per second 
(``cfs'') of streamflow during the peak summer months, with a hope of 
meeting a 250 cfs streamflow target through additional water purchases, 
water conservation, and water leasing.
    A third example of positive collaboration is Warm Springs' 
involvement with the Crooked River Water Quality Partnership. Earlier 
this year, the Partnership received a $300,000 federal grant to design 
projects to reduce nutrient pollution in the Lower Crooked River. This 
is particularly important to Warm Springs because poor water quality 
conditions in the Crooked River are affecting our ability to 
successfully reintroduce salmon and trout species that are socially, 
economically and culturally significant above the Pelton Round Butte 
hydro project.
Confederated Tribes Is Co-Manager of the Water Resources of the 
        Deschutes Basin
    It is our sovereign duty to support a healthy watershed from the 
headwaters to the mouth of the Deschutes River. We hold this 
responsibility also in partnership with the United States and the State 
as co-managers of the water resources of the Deschutes Basin. As an 
example, this co-management is recognized in the Confederated Tribes of 
Warm Springs Reservation Water Rights Settlement Agreement, which was 
entered into in 1997.
    Land use matters, including on the National Forest lands. Wildfire 
has significantly impacted the watershed by affecting the timing of 
snowmelt and impairing the function of forest meadows and wetlands. 
There is much work to be done in connection with both pre-fire 
hazardous fuel reduction and post-fire restoration of the landscape.
Forest Health and Water
    The forests on our ancestral lands help to sustain both the well-
being and the prosperity of our people. The western half of the Warm 
Springs Reservation is forested and managed to meet multiple purposes, 
from traditional foods and medicines to carbon storage, timber and 
forest products. We are proud of our forest management plan and the 
balance it achieves, including helping to provide clean air and water.
    However, our forests border three National Forests: the Mt. Hood, 
Deschutes and Willamette. The federal side of those borderlands are 
largely wilderness and other reserves that limit management actions.
    Over the last two decades, this combined landscape has seen 
increasingly large, catastrophic fires. The result is a growing 
presence of dead snags that create a future fire hazard. Loss of forest 
canopy, particularly in riparian areas, affects stream temperature and 
aquatic health. Recent scientific studies also show that snow melts 
faster on fire-affected slopes, meaning less water available when 
needed the most in warm months.
    We cannot have clean and cold water, flowing at the right times, 
without better addressing the threat of wildfire. The Warm Springs 
Tribes have pursued projects aimed at reducing and utilizing hazardous 
fuels on federal lands. But federal managers were threatened with 
litigation. This not only impacted the ability to address dangerous 
conditions but also reduced the ability of the federal government to 
demonstrate a viable biomass supply for beneficial use. We have tried 
to pursue Tribal Forest Protection Act projects on federal lands, but 
were also threatened with litigation and delays that we simply cannot 
afford.
    We appreciate efforts by Congress to encourage federal forest 
management agencies to work more closely with Indian tribes. Improving 
Good Neighbor Authority to give tribes equal footing with states is an 
important step. However, funding for tribal forest management is 
drastically below that of the Forest Service or BLM. A recent report to 
Congress \1\ documented that forests managed by the BIA for tribes 
receive four times less than the Forest Service and 14 times less than 
BLM forests.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \1\ Fourth Indian Forest Management Assessment Report (2023)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    While tribes have a great desire and interest to do work on federal 
lands--and much to offer with our scientific and cultural knowledge--we 
are extremely limited in capacity. We encourage Congress to create new 
authorities and funding mechanisms for tribal co-management of federal 
forests. One localized example is legislation introduced by Senator 
Wyden and Congressman Blumenauer that would direct the Forest Service 
to enter into a stewardship agreement with Warm Springs for improved 
management of our sacred resources and habitat--including water--on the 
Mount Hood National Forest. More broadly, Warm Springs supports 
legislative efforts by the Intertribal Timber Council to broaden TFPA 
and codify co-stewardship and co-management authorities for tribes.
Challenges
    Having healthy dialog and collaboration is like having a strong 
family. It doesn't prevent bad things from happening, but it helps 
everyone get through them. We face serious challenges in the Deschutes 
Basin--from prolonged drought, poor water quality conditions, increased 
demand and other factors.
Conclusion
    I want to thank Congressman Bentz, Members of the Subcommittee and 
Representative Chavez-DeRemer for coming here to talk about water. I 
began by speaking of how Warm Springs people view water. It is the very 
first gift the Creator gave to humans. You don't have to believe our 
religion to see what a gift water is here in the high desert. It can 
grow crops, sustain robust populations in our communities, generate 
power for hundreds of thousands of homes, and more.
    But it's not easy. In fact, it's quite difficult--especially as we 
honor and protect the fish who move through these river systems on 
their journey back and forth to the Pacific Ocean.
    I think we're doing a better job here in the Deschutes Basin than 
anywhere else. Why? The Warm Springs people have been here since time 
immemorial. We're not going anywhere. Our neighbors are going be here 
forever. We've all decided to be working together to come up with 
solutions and ways to take care of the water. We get a lot more work 
done working together than alone.

                                 ______
                                 

    Mr. Bentz. Thank you, Mr. Brunoe. I now recognize Dr. 
Backsen for 5 minutes.

 STATEMENT OF TRISH BACKSEN, FARMER AND OWNER, OREGON FEED AND 
                  IRRIGATION, REDMOND, OREGON

    Dr. Backsen. Thank you, Congresswoman Lori Chavez-DeRemer, 
Chairman Cliff Bentz, and all the other Members of Congress, 
for taking the time to hold this hearing here in Redmond. We 
appreciate your efforts to hear our concerns and to visit our 
beautiful community.
    My name is Trish Kentner Backsen. I hold a BS in biology, a 
master's in education, and a doctorate in veterinary medicine. 
I am also a board member of Perfect Balance USA, a non-profit 
whose mission is to promote environmentally friendly 
agriculture. My husband and I own small businesses in Central 
Oregon focused on Ag which employ around 40 members of our 
community.
    One of our key businesses, Haystack Farm and Feed, based in 
Culver, produces livestock, horse, poultry, rabbit feed, and 
our famous horse treats which we distribute across the 
Northwest and well into other states. In addition, we farm 
approximately 1,200 acres in Jefferson County and run a retail 
store in Redmond, Oregon, where we offer Ag irrigation 
products, livestock feed, and pet supplies. I have also been a 
veterinarian for over 30 years.
    Small businesses have faced significant challenges over the 
past few years. Agricultural businesses in our region have been 
especially hard-hit. Rising costs for essentials like labor, 
fuel, seed, fertilizer, and herbicides have placed enormous 
strain on our operations. On top of that, we have been 
grappling with a severe water shortage due to prolonged 
drought, and complicated by issues that have occurred from the 
Oregon spotted frog. Many farms are being forced out of 
business due to these combined pressures, property values are 
plummeting, and generational farms are becoming extinct.
    We have a unique growing environment in Central Oregon, 
producing a variety of seed and specialty crops vital to both 
local and global Ag. Our region is responsible for producing 
most of the world's carrot seed, and one local farm is the 
second largest producer of wildflower seed in the United 
States. This wildflower seed is important because it attracts 
the monarch butterflies, a species likely to be added to the 
endangered species list soon.
    The water shortage impact on Central Oregon farms has been 
devastating. We are receiving only half of our traditional 
allotment where we are. Also due to the requirements of the 
Deschutes Basin Habitat Conservation Plan, the amount of 
irrigation water we receive will continue to incrementally 
decrease in the coming years. Of the 1,200 acres we farm, we 
are only able to harvest crops on around 400 to 600 acres, 
depending on the crop and the year, yet we still must pay full 
water delivery charges regardless of how little water we 
receive. The goal of all the resources provided for piping is 
to mitigate that decline, but there is no guarantee it will all 
happen in a timely manner.
    Another significant challenge we face is weed management. 
Uncontrolled weeds present a serious fire hazard to surrounding 
properties, and plus they are just ugly. Last summer, we had to 
spray our non-planted fields with herbicides four times. 
Unfortunately, herbicides can seep into the ground and 
potentially contaminate the groundwater. Additionally, planted 
fields are valuable for converting CO2 to oxygen, 
but weeds are not.
    Historically, we have sourced most of the ingredients for 
our animal feeds as local as possible. However, we have been 
forced to look beyond Central Oregon, often turning to other 
regions of the state and out of state to meet the needs of our 
feed mill. We are grateful to Representatives Chavez-DeRemer 
and Cliff Bentz for their efforts in securing resources to help 
mitigate the water crisis we are facing.
    Several Federal projects are currently underway to improve 
the efficiency of our water delivery systems and to conserve as 
much water as possible. The local irrigation districts have put 
in a tremendous amount of work towards this goal, and some 
areas have already seen progress with the installation of 
pipelines. Unfortunately, the process of piping is costly, and 
can lead to lawsuits from people that are opposed to it, and 
also it takes a significant amount of time. Many local farmers 
cannot afford to wait, and are facing the real possibility of 
losing their livelihoods before these solutions are fully 
implemented.
    Remember, no water, no farmers, no food.
    Water challenges in Central Oregon are not only impacting 
agriculture. Our region has become a popular tourist 
destination due to its incredible scenery, outdoor rec, and 
great weather. The influx of new residents and tourists place 
even more pressure on our resources, especially water and our 
infrastructure.
    I want to thank again Representatives Chavez-DeRemer and 
Bentz and the entire congressional delegation here today for 
your attention to these critical issues. We all share the goal 
of ensuring long-term viability of our farms, businesses, and 
communities. I appreciate your efforts in helping us achieve 
that goal. Thank you for your time.

    [The prepared statement of Dr. Backsen follows:]
              Prepared Statement of Trish Backsen, Farmer

    I would like to thank Congresswomen Lori Chavez-DeRemer and 
Congressman Cliff Benz for scheduling this National hearing in Redmond, 
Oregon. I also want to thank all of the other Congressmen and 
Congresswomen that have taken the time to be here, listen to our 
concerns, and to visit our beautiful community.
    My name is Trish (Patricia) Kentner Backsen, DVM. I have a 
Bachelor's of Science degree in Biology, a Master's Degree in 
Education, and a Doctorate in Veterinary Medicine.
    My husband and I own a couple of small businesses in Central 
Oregon. Our businesses are based in agriculture and we employee around 
40 people in the Central Oregon community.
    One business, Haystack Farm and Feed, INC, in Culver, Oregon 
produces livestock, horse, poultry, and rabbit feed that we ship across 
the Northwest and to other areas in the country. In addition to the 
feed mill, we farm around 1200 acres in Jefferson County. We operate a 
retail store in Redmond, OR where we sell irrigation parts for 
agriculture, livestock feed, and pet supplies. I have also practiced as 
a veterinarian for the past 32 years.
    There have been major challenges for all small businesses the past 
few years. Agricultural businesses have been hit hard in this area due 
to the increased costs of fuel, seed, fertilizer, and herbicides. We 
have endured a significant water shortage due to the drought which has 
been compounded by challenges presented by the Oregon Spotted Frog. 
Another significant issue in operating a small business is trying to 
find employees. This is a major concern for every other business owner 
that I have spoken with! Many farms, especially in Jefferson County, 
are going out of business because of a culmination of these issues. 
Their property values have decreased significantly and generational 
farms are becoming extinct.
    Jefferson County has a unique growing environment where a lot of 
seed and other specialty crops are produced in the area. It produces a 
majority of the worlds carrot seed and one farm is the second highest 
producer of wild flower seed in the USA. The importance of that 
particular crop is that they specialize in growing wild flower seeds 
that attract the Monarch Butterfly. It is a species that is probably 
going to be added to the endangered species list in the near future.
    The effect of the lack of water on Jefferson County Farms has been 
devastating. We are receiving approximately one half of our traditional 
water allotment. Of the 1200 acres that we farm, we are only harvesting 
crops on around 400-450 acres. We still have to pay the water delivery 
charges no matter how much water that we receive.
    Weeds are another issue that farmers are constantly dealing with. 
Weed management is important as the unmanaged weeds can also present a 
huge fire danger to surrounding properties. For example, this last 
summer we sprayed our non-planted fields four times with herbicides. 
Unfortunately, this presents another issue for the environment. The 
herbicides can possibly seep into the ground and potentially into the 
aquifer. Planted, growing fields are great at converting CO2 to Oxygen. 
Weeds are not!
    We have historically bought the majority of the ingredients used in 
our feeds as locally as possible. The decrease in available crops in 
this area has forced us to source the products from other areas in 
Oregon and from other states to meet the ingredient demands for our 
production. This increases the cost of doing business!
    Farmers are also trying to find viable crop options that take less 
water to produce. We grew flaxseed this year and a few farmers grew 
Canola. Both only take a few waterings compared to other products in 
the area. More thoughts and emphasis around drought resistant crops 
might provide additional farming options for this area.
    We appreciate Representative Lori Chavez-Deremer and Representative 
Cliff Benz for their help in providing this area with resources to try 
and mitigate the water issues that we are experiencing. There are 
several projects going on that have been funded by the Federal 
Government to increase the efficiency of the water delivery systems 
which will help conserve as much water as possible. I know there has 
been a huge effort by all the irrigation districts in the area! Some 
districts have already been piped. COID (Central Oregon Irrigation 
District) manages the largest amount of water, and has senior water 
rights. They have been active in piping areas to try to conserve water 
and become more efficient with water use.
    North Unit Irrigation District has one of the most efficient water 
systems and farmers in that area have upgraded their equipment to 
utilize their irrigation in the best ways possible. All of the water 
used is monitored and subtracted from your yearly water allotment.
    It's a great start, but we also have to balance our water needs 
throughout all the industries and the general water requirements needed 
for Central Oregon. Central Oregon has become a huge tourist attraction 
due to our incredible scenery, recreational opportunities, outdoor 
activities, and great weather. The influx of population moving into 
this area the last few decades has stressed our resources including 
water, housing, medical, roads, and has caused many other 
infrastructure challenges that our community is struggling to cope 
with!
    Thank you for the opportunity to speak at your hearing to help 
showcase the challenges that we are facing in Central Oregon with our 
water issues.

                                 ______
                                 

    Mr. Bentz. Thank you, Dr. Backsen. I now recognize Mr. 
Gaylord for 5 minutes.

   STATEMENT OF PAT GAYLORD, OREGON DIRECTOR TO THE NATIONAL 
SOCIETY OF PROFESSIONAL SURVEYORS, PROFESSIONAL LAND SURVEYORS 
                   OF OREGON, TIGARD, OREGON

    Mr. Gaylord. Good morning, Chair Bentz, Congresswoman 
Hoyle, members of the Subcommittee, and my Congressman Chavez-
DeRemer. Thank you, Chair Bentz, for holding today's hearing 
and for recognizing the major role that land surveying plays in 
collecting data for good stewardship decisions.
    My name is Pat Gaylord. I am an Oregon State University 
graduate with a bachelor of science in forest engineering. I am 
a second-generation Oregon land surveyor holding licenses in 
Oregon, Washington, and Idaho, and I am a certified Federal 
surveyor.
    As a lifelong Oregonian with a passion for working and 
playing in the outdoors, I am honored to be here today to 
testify as a member of the Professional Land Surveyors of 
Oregon and as the Oregon Director to the National Society of 
Professional Surveyors. I am currently the Surveying and 
Geomatics Service Excellence Leader for David Evans and 
Associates, which is a multi-disciplined firm founded in 1976 
and headquartered in Portland, Oregon.
    Surveying is no longer limited to determining legal borders 
of a piece of property, preparing legal descriptions, or 
creating plats. You might say, what the heck is geomatics? 
Geomatics refers to the methods and sophisticated technologies 
used to collect and present all types of geographic data. 
Geomatics does include the traditional land surveying, as well 
as geodesy, GIS, GPS, hydrography, mapping, photogrammetry, and 
remote sensing.
    The reason I am here today is that the data generated by 
this profession is critical to managers and policymakers when 
assessing the conditions of the landscape. Surveyors want to be 
a key partner in providing this high-quality data.
    With regards to water quality, this data provides the 
complex information needed for planning and design of critical 
systems for fish and wildlife, as well as humans. The USGS 3D 
Elevation Program, 3DEP, and the more recent 3D Hydrography 
Program, 3DHP, are the baseline of the data needed for these 
decisions. The future of these programs will bring them 
together into the 3D National Topography Model, or 3DNTM, which 
will revolutionize the way we make decisions for both the built 
and the natural environment.
    Adding a comprehensive landownership data set such as what 
can be provided by implementation of the FLAIR Act is critical 
to determining stakeholders, partners, and strategies.
    Optimally, the USGS views 3DEP to be funded at $146 million 
annually. USGS is on pace to achieve 100 percent national 
coverage by the end of Fiscal Year 2026. On May 1, 2024, 30 
bipartisan members of the House sent a letter to their 
colleagues in the House Appropriations Committee requesting 
robust funding for USGS 3DEP in Fiscal Year 2025. Among those 
co-signing this letter were Representatives Lori Chavez-DeRemer 
and Val Hoyle, Chairman Bruce Westerman, and five fellow 
Committee members. On May 15, the Senate companion letter to 
the Senate Appropriations Committee was co-signed by 11 
bipartisan offices, including our Senator Ron Wyden.
    As an example of the potential offered by the future 3DNTM 
program for the evaluation of the Deschutes watershed, David 
Evans and Associates recently completed a project on the Toutle 
River in Washington for the Army Corps of Engineers Portland 
District. In this project, DEA provided data to develop, 
evaluate, and select concepts to improve fish passage at the 
existing Toutle River Fish Collection facility in southwest 
Washington.
    In the absence of a data set like the 3DNTM, DEA designed 
the acquisition program to meet the needs of the project for 
modeling, oversaw the collection of bathymetric data, upland 
data, and aerial LiDAR data to represent the present-day 
conditions from which a comprehensive model was generated. A 
subset of the survey data will also be used by the Army Corps 
of Engineers to build a fluid dynamics model to evaluate the 
local conditions at the tailrace near the fish ladder entrance. 
The resulting data set created by DEA closely mirrors that 
image found on the Department of the Interior website 
highlighting the future 3DNTM program and the value it brings.
    In conclusion, Mr. Chairman, I would like to thank you for 
the opportunity to share our views, and we look forward to 
working with the Subcommittee to continue to build on our past 
success and further improve and protect Oregon's water 
resources. Thank you.

    [The prepared statement of Mr. Gaylord follows:]
                   Prepared Statement of Pat Gaylord
    Good morning, Chair Bentz, Oregon Congresswoman Hoyle, members of 
the subcommittee, and my Congresswoman Chavez-DeRemer. Thank you Chair 
Bentz for holding today's hearing on such an important topic of concern 
to Oregonians and for recognizing the major role the surveying 
profession plays in collecting data for good stewardship decisions.
    My name is Pat Gaylord. I am an Oregon State University graduate 
with a BS in Forest Engineering, and I am a second-generation Oregon 
land surveyor. I hold surveying licenses in Oregon, Washington and 
Idaho and I am a Certified Federal Surveyor (CFedS). As a lifelong 
Oregonian who is passionate about working and playing in the outdoors, 
I am honored to be here today to testify as a member of the 
Professional Land Surveyors of Oregon (PLSO) and as their Director to 
the National Society of Professional Surveyors (NSPS).
    I grew up in a family surveying business which, in part, provided 
services to timber companies and small woodland owners throughout 
northwest Oregon, primarily in Clackamas County. I am currently the 
Surveying and Geomatics Service Excellence Leader for David Evans and 
Associates which is a multidiscipline firm founded in 1976 and 
headquartered in Portland, Oregon. Among our many services, we provide 
Land Surveying, Geomatics services and Marine surveying throughout much 
of the United States. Our company is dedicated to working together to 
improve the quality of life while demonstrating stewardship of the 
built and natural environments.
    For those who may be unfamiliar with the term, Geomatics is the 
newest evolution of land surveying. Surveying is no longer limited to 
determining the legal borders of a piece of property, preparing legal 
descriptions or creating plats. Geomatics refers to the methods and 
sophisticated technologies used to collect, process, analyze and 
present all types of geographic data. Geomatics includes traditional 
land surveying, as well as, geodesy, GIS, GPS, hydrography, mapping, 
photogrammetry and remote sensing. Aside from the importance that those 
first three things are what keep your car on the road with your 
favorite driving app; the reason I am here today is that the data 
generated by this profession is critical to supporting good decision 
making by managers and policy makers when assessing conditions of the 
landscape. We want to be a key partner in providing high quality data 
to serve the public needs evaluate and wisely use our natural 
resources.
    With regards to water quality, geomatic data melds upland LiDAR 
data, ownership information, and topography together with hydrographic 
measurements to create a comprehensive data set for analysis. This data 
set can disclose patterns of water flow or erosion on the landscape, 
sediment loading in impoundments, dam monitoring and deformations as 
well as provide the complex information needed for planning and design 
of critical systems for fish and wildlife as well as humans. The USGS 
3D Elevation Program (3DEP) and the more recent 3D Hydrography Program 
(3DHP) are one component of the data needed for these decisions. The 
future of these programs will bring them together into the 3D National 
Topography Model (3DNTM) which will revolutionize the way we make 
decisions for both the built and natural environment. Adding a 
comprehensive land ownership data set, such as what can be provided by 
implementation of the FLAIR Act, is critical to determining 
stakeholders, partners and strategies.
    Optimally, USGS views 3DEP to be funded at $146 million annually. 
USGS is on pace to achieve 100% national coverage by the end of FY2026. 
On May 1, 2024, thirty bipartisan members of the House sent a letter to 
their colleagues on the House Appropriations Committee requesting 
``robust funding'' for USGS 3DEP in FY2025. Among those cosigning this 
letter were Representatives Lori Chavez-DeRemer (R-OR) and Val Hoyle 
(D-OR), Chairman Bruce Westerman (R-AR) and five fellow committee 
members. On May 15 the Senate companion letter to the Senate 
Appropriations Committee was cosigned by 11 bipartisan offices 
including Senator Ron Wyden (D-OR).
    As an example of the efficiency offered by bringing this data to 
life in the future 3DNTM, David Evans and Associates recently completed 
a project on the Toutle River in Washington for the Army Corps of 
Engineers, Portland District. In this project DEA created virtually the 
same data set envisioned by the 3DNTM, from scratch. DEA acquired 
bathymetric and upland topographic data for the development of a 1- and 
2-dimensional hydraulic and sediment transport model as part of an 
effort to develop, evaluate, and select concepts to improve fish 
passage at the existing Toutle River Fish Collection Facility in 
southwest Washington.
    In the absence of a data set like what is envisioned by the 3DNTM, 
DEA designed the data acquisition program to meet the project needs for 
modeling and oversaw the collection of bathymetric data, upland data, 
and airborne Lidar to represent the present-day conditions from which a 
comprehensive model was generated. A subset of the survey data will 
also be used by USACE engineers to build a 3-dimensional computational 
fluid dynamics model to evaluate local conditions in the tailrace near 
the ladder entrance. The resulting data set created by DEA closely 
mirrors that image found on the Department of Interior website 
highlighting the future of the 3DNTM program (The 3D National 
Topography Model / Land Imaging Report Site (usgs.gov).
    In conclusion, Mr. Chairman, I thank you for the opportunity to 
share our views and we look forward to working with the subcommittee to 
continue to build on past success and further improve and protect 
Oregon's water resources.

                                 ______
                                 

    Mr. Bentz. Thank you, Mr. Gaylord. I now recognize Mr. 
Larkin for 5 minutes.

STATEMENT OF JEFF LARKIN, OWNER, JEFF LARKIN REALITY, REDMOND, 
                             OREGON

    Mr. Larkin. Chairman Bentz, Congresswoman Chavez-DeRemer, 
and members of the Subcommittee, my name is Jeff Larkin, and I 
am Owner-Operator of Jeff Larkin Realty; Larkin Valley Ranch, 
which is a direct-to-the-consumer beef and lamb operation; and 
owner of a farm and ranch development company here in Central 
Oregon. I also serve on the board of directors for the Central 
Oregon Irrigation District. COID is a founding member of the 
Deschutes Basin Board of Control that represents eight 
irrigation districts in Central Oregon, and I am also 
representing that group here today.
    Thank you for the opportunity to testify before the 
Subcommittee today and share my views about opportunities to 
manage our natural resources to allow farming and ranching, 
recreation and tourism, healthy eco and wildlife so we can 
thrive together in our region.
    First and foremost, I would like to thank Congresswoman 
Chavez-DeRemer for bringing this important hearing to these and 
other congressional leaders on agricultural and natural 
resources issues out to Redmond. Thank you all for making the 
trip out to Central Oregon.
    Chairman Bentz, we certainly appreciate your continued 
leadership on this Subcommittee, as well.
    As a third-generation cattle rancher, realtor, and Ag 
developer, I firsthand know how serious farmers and ranchers in 
the Deschutes Basin take their stewardship of the land and of 
the water. We understand the need to ensure agriculture so 
Central Oregon can survive in a rapidly changing environment. 
My family and others in the region continue to respond to a 
host of challenges, including droughts, urban growth, new 
environmental requirements, and many others by adapting our 
operations to apply water more efficiently and developing new 
markets with our livestock.
    All this innovation helps the Ag sector remain viable and 
continue to feed our nation, but the recent years of drought 
also reminded us that the value of agriculture is ultimately 
linked to water, plain and simple. This value, of course, 
includes the direct production of food and fiber, but it 
doesn't end there. It is also embedded in the value of the 
land, and provides a lot of indirect value, as outlined in my 
written testimony in more detail. That is why COID and other 
DBBC members are working daily to implement projects that 
improve supply and restore confidence in our long-term 
viability of the irrigation in the basin. To accomplish this, 
DBBC and our partners in the basin have embraced a 
collaborative approach to solving major water and natural 
resource management challenges.
    Sticking together hasn't always been easy, but the trust 
built between stakeholders at the local level over the past 
decade and a solid plan to achieve results that work together 
for agriculture, the environment, and other interests have 
helped avoid recent droughts from derailing our long-term 
plans.
    At the heart of our plan is irrigation modernization that 
will reduce water losses and free up additional water for use 
on farm and to meet instream flow targets. These efforts are 
largely centered around piping, pressurizing, and automating 
open canals. We actually brought a section of pipe that you can 
see outside to get a sense of the scale of the infrastructure. 
Since 2015, the DBBC members have piped over 25 miles of canal, 
which has saved up to 15,000 acre-feet per year. Once all of 
the planned piping projects are completed, an additional nearly 
80,000 acre-feet per-year savings is to be expected. To put 
that in perspective, that equates to about half of Wickiup 
Reservoir's capacity.
    While these infrastructure improvements produce multiple 
benefits, they don't come cheap. The Deschutes Basin will need 
over $1 billion in infrastructure investment to make this 
vision a reality, and the urgency of completing this 
infrastructure can't be overstated. HCP-mandated winter 
releases are only 5 years from tripling, and without 
significant progress on the improvements it will be crippling 
to our farms and ranches.
    We hear from farmers and ranchers from across the basin 
about how recent drought and uncertainty about the future water 
reliability weigh on their decisions for continuing to operate. 
It is critical that we rapidly implement planned projects to 
ensure these producers know there is a reliable water supply 
for long term. Without this path to survivability, I have no 
doubt we will watch our basin continue to lose farmland. The 
effect of such a loss will take an economic, cultural, and 
environmental toll on the basin. My written testimony includes 
a discussion about Federal programs and policy that are key to 
the efforts.
    As I conclude I would like to thank again Congresswoman 
Chavez-DeRemer for her support of these programs, and for being 
such an important voice to Central Oregon irrigated agriculture 
on the House Agricultural Committee. Keep fighting the good 
fight, and let us know how we can help.
    Thanks again for allowing me to testify here today at the 
hearing, and for all those taking the time to be here. I look 
forward to answering any questions you have.

    [The prepared statement of Mr. Larkin follows:]
  Prepared Statement of Jeff Larkin, Owner of Jeff Larkin Reality and 
           Board Member of Central Oregon Irrigation District

    Chairman Bentz, Congresswoman Chavez-DeRemer and Members of the 
Subcommittee:
    My name is Jeff Larkin and I am the owner and operator of Jeff 
Larkin Reality, Larkin Valley Ranch--a Grass-Fed Beef and Lamb 
operation here in Redmond--and a ranch-construction business. My strong 
roots in the community has also led me and my family to support various 
public and nonprofit organizations have 4H, Future Farmers of America, 
veterans programs, local sports teams, Friends of the Children and 
others.
    I also serve as a member of the Board of Directors for the Central 
Oregon Irrigation District (COID), which is a founding member of the 
Deschutes Basin Board of Control and I am also representing that group 
here today. The DBBC is comprised of eight irrigation districts in 
Central Oregon--Arnold , Central Oregon, Lone Pine, North Unit, Ochoco, 
Three Sisters, Tumalo, and Swalley Irrigation District. DBBC members 
are responsible for delivering water supply to over 7,600 farm and 
ranch families, schools, and local parks and recreation districts 
throughout the Deschutes Basin. Overall, DBBC member Districts irrigate 
over 150,000 acres of productive agricultural lands. Collectively, the 
DBBC works together to protect irrigation water supplies in the 
Deschutes River Basin (Basin).
    Thank you for opportunity to testify before the Subcommittee today 
and share my views about the opportunities we have at this point in 
time to truly ``Improve and Protect Central Oregon's Water Supply.'' If 
we seize these opportunities, we will ensure all of the value derived 
from our natural resources--farming and ranching, recreation and 
tourism, and healthy ecosystems and wildlife--can thrive together in 
our Region.
    First and foremost, I would like to thank Congresswoman Chavez-
DeRemer for bringing this important hearing to Redmond and for bringing 
other congressional leaders on agriculture and natural resources issues 
from Congress out here today--thank you all for making the trip out 
here please let me welcome you to Central Oregon. Chairman Bentz, we 
all certainly appreciate your continued leadership on this Subcommittee 
as well and thank you for a life long dedication to these issues. I'd 
say we have a serious one-two punch that all of us in Central Oregon 
should be proud of, so thank you both for your public service and 
commitment to our water resources--because as has been said of the 
West, ``Here is a land where life is written in water.''
Central Oregon Agriculture: A Legacy of Innovation and the Value of 
        Reliable Water Supply
    As a 3rd generation cattle rancher, relator, and ag developer, I 
know firsthand how seriously farmers and ranchers in the Deschutes 
Basin take their stewardship of our land and water, and understand the 
importance of constant evolution to ensure agriculture in Central 
Oregon can survive in a rapidly changing environment. Drought, extreme 
weather, urban growth, low commodity prices, new environmental 
requirements, and other factors have presented unceasing challenges 
that the agriculture operations my family and others in the region have 
to overcome.
    However, these same challenges have also served as a calling to 
improve our water systems, farming and ranching operations, and markets 
to ensure there is a prosperous future for agriculture in Central 
Oregon. I am certainly not saying that it is always easy to see these 
challenges as opportunities rather than threats, but in fact farmers 
and ranchers--along the irrigation systems we rely on--have responded 
by becoming more efficient, more precises, and more innovative.
    Responding to the ongoing pressures on ag in the Basin is essential 
to survival. My family and others have implemented irrigation 
technology, automation, and other techniques to maintain production 
with less water. We have reacted to population growth--along with the 
related reduction in ag land available to lease at affordable prices--
by developing markets that go direct to consumer in order to maintain 
sales revenues with less cattle. I would also note that an added 
benefit of going directly to our customers is it helps more people know 
where their food comes from and hopefully increase our base of support 
for protecting agriculture. We have also shifted our cropping patterns 
and land use to ensure we focus resources to avoid losses on marginal 
lands and production. All of this innovation helps the ag sector remain 
viable and continue to feed our country.
    But regardless of all of this innovation that allows us to do more 
with less, the recent years of drought also reminded all of us of the 
reality that the value in agriculture is derived from water. Of course, 
there is the direct value created or lost from the application of 
irrigation through the production of food and fiber, but it doesn't end 
there. In irrigation districts that recently experienced significant 
drought related curtailments, we have seen land values drop 
significantly and multigenerational farms and ranches sold for a 
fraction of what they were worth when water deliveries were considered 
more certain. There is also indirect value created from keeping water 
on the landscape. A good recent example is how insurance companies 
value the presence of neighboring irrigated lands when pricing wildfire 
insurance. Increasingly, insurance it becoming a major challenge for 
homebuyers and the natural fire break created by irrigated lands is a 
real factor in whether affordable insurance can be obtained.
    It is not only the current water allocation on short-term hydrology 
that impacts our ability to create all of this direct and indirect 
value. While the availability of water needed to raise and sell a crop 
is obviously central to everything we do, the confidence that 
deliveries will return to normal and that there is a plan to ensure 
water will be available in the future is also crucial as farmers and 
ranchers make decisions about their operations. Providing this 
confidence in the long-term viability of irrigation in the Basin has 
driven us work constructively with others in the Basin to find 
solutions that provide the water supply certainty our farmers, 
ranchers, and irrigation districts need to persist.
Value of a Collaborative River Basin in Tackling Water Challenges
    For over a decade, the DBBC and it's a partners in the Basin have 
embraced a collaborative approach to solving major water and natural 
resources management challenges. The foundation this cooperation is the 
Deschutes Basin Habitat Conservation Plan (HCP), which marked the 
culmination of nearly 12 years of dedicated effort among various 
stakeholders--irrigators, federal and state agencies, the Confederated 
Tribes of the Warm Springs Reservation, local cities and counties, non-
governmental organizations, and members of the public--to create a 
comprehensive strategy for managing water resources in the Basin for 
the next 30 years. This HCP provides crucial protections against 
potentially harsher regulations for water users under the Endangered 
Species Act (ESA), while charting a path to improving ecosystem health 
and habitat for fish and wildlife.
    While we continue to believe that collaborative, locally-driven 
efforts are the best way to find solutions that benefit all reasonable 
interests, it doesn't mean it is always easy. This was evident when the 
first several years of environmental flow requirements from the HCP 
coincided with the worst droughts in Central Oregon history, leading to 
water curtailments for many water user. It is easy to understand how 
the rapid loss of water that for many raised the real prospect of 
losing generational farms and livelihoods could result in frustrations 
aimed at the HCP. At the same time, we saw out of state environmental 
groups that chose not to participate in HCP development throw the 
longevity of this collaborative solution into question with an ``intent 
to sue'' and raising concerns that even more water could be removed 
from agricultural water users.
    Without the trust built between stakeholders at the local level 
through the HCP process and a solid plan to achieve results that work 
for agriculture, the environment, and other interests, these speed 
bumps could easily have caused a tough water situation to get worse for 
our farmers and ranchers. Instead, we were able to work with our 
federal and non-federal partners to implement ``adaptive management'' 
strategies to reduce required released based on actual hydrology and 
prevent even greater drought impacts from deeper cuts to water users. 
In addition, the unified front in the basin and solid plan for success 
helped prevent an ``intent to sue'' from resulting in an actual legal 
challenge to the HCP.
    We are confident that as new challenges come our way, we'll be able 
to build on this foundation of collaboration to find solutions that 
work for the Basin as a whole and maintain the balance that drew many 
of us to Central Oregon.
Conserving Water and Sustaining Agriculture through Irrigation 
        Modernization and Infrastructure Investment
    The certainty and partnerships established through collaborative 
problem solving has allowed the DBBC to develop a comprehensive 
strategy to safeguard the future of agriculture in the region while 
balancing environmental needs. This strategy hinges on infrastructure 
development and improvements that modernize irrigation systems and 
upgrade infrastructure in the Basin to reduce water losses--freeing up 
the water necessary to meet instream requirements and still deliver 
agricultural water supplies.
    Irrigation modernization and infrastructure development plans is 
largely centered around piping, pressurizing, and automating open 
canals, but also includes development of mechanisms to transfer water, 
relocating pumping facilities, upgrading fish screens, and a variety 
others activities. In addition, in many cases irrigation modernization 
projects include installation hydro generation to increase renewable, 
carbon free energy that benefits the entire region.

GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT



    .epsThe benefits of irrigation modernization to the Basin are 
numerous, with water conservation being paramount. Many of the historic 
canals still used by irrigation districts in the Basin are carved out 
of volcanic soils and are extremely porous. Some reaches of canal lose 
up to 50% of its water in delivery. By piping these outdated canals, 
water losses from seepage and evaporation are slashed, allowing more 
water to be delivered to junior water users or used to support flows in 
the Deschutes River. Since 2015, the DBBC members have piped roughly 25 
miles of canal which has saved 12,000-15,000 AF/year. Once all of the 
planned piping projects are completed, an additional nearly 80,000AF/
year in savings is expected. To put hat in perspective, that equates to 
over 1.1 billion pints of beer OR 224.3 Olympic swimming pools of water 
would be saved in one day.
    Overall, these water savings will ensure that required winter 
releases to support the Oregon Spotted Frog and other species can be 
met while maintaining agricultural water deliveries to all of the 
irrigation districts regardless of water priority. Likewise, projects 
like relocating the North Unit Irrigation District Crooked River pumps 
will help rewater a stretch of river through Smith Rock State Park 
while boosting water supply certainty for region farmers.
    Additional benefits of irrigation modernization include delivery of 
pressurized water to farms allowing for reduction of pumping and 
installation of new hydro generation. Taking COID's plans as an 
example, once fully implemented we will be able to deliver pressurized 
water that is expected to eliminate the need for over 2,300 pumps and 
reduce electricity use by over 33 million kilowatt hours per year. From 
a carbon emissions standpoint that is the equivalent of 2.6 million 
gallons of gasoline according the EPA--and that is just one system and 
doesn't include the 15 megawatts of new hydro generation anticipated 
from these projects. A number of the smaller systems in the Basin are 
already fully piped and demonstrating that these energy benefits reduce 
emissions and save money on farm.
    Reduced risk of canal failure is another important advantage of 
these projects. Just this year, a naturally occurring lava tube under 
one of COID's main canals caused a massive canal breach during the peak 
of irrigation system. We were able to quickly respond to restore 
deliveries without threatening the crops served by that facility, but 
it was costly and could have been much worse. Once these stretches are 
piped, the risk of these types of failures will be significantly 
reduced.
    In addition, these modernization projects support over 4,900 jobs 
and contribute 219M in economic development for our rural communities.
    While these infrastructure improvements produce multiple benefits, 
they don't come cheap. The Deschutes Basin will need over $1 billion in 
infrastructure investment is required to make this vision a reality. 
Federal programs like the Natural Resources Conservation Service's 
(NRCS) Watershed Protection and Flood Prevention Act (PL-566), Bureau 
of Reclamation's Drought funding and WaterSMART program, Environmental 
Protection Service's Clean Water State Revolving Fund, and U.S. Fish 
and Wildlife Service's Fisheries Restoration and Irrigation Mitigation 
Act have been instrumental in our efforts to date. We are also greatly 
appreciative that the State of Oregon recognized the value of these 
types of projects and has allocated $50 million to help meet non-
federal cost-share requirements for some irrigation district projects.
Urgent Need to Ramp up Efforts
    The pressure to complete irrigation modernization plans is hard to 
overstate. Pressure on water resources from drought and environmental 
flows continues to grow, and a future for agriculture in the Basin 
requires moving ahead with infrastructure projects with a greater sense 
of urgency. In addition to threats from worsening droughts, HCP 
mandated winter releases for the Oregon Spotted Frog are only 5 years 
from tripling and without significant progress on infrastructure 
improvements it will be crippling to Districts and patrons.
    We hear from farmers and ranchers from across the Basin about how 
recent drought related water curtailments and uncertainty about future 
water reliability weigh on their decisions about continuing to operate. 
It is critical that we continue to rapidly implement these projects to 
ensure these producers have confidence that they can count on continued 
water supply for the long-term. With low commodity prices, increasing 
costs of fertilizer and other inputs, and all of the other pressures on 
the agriculture sector, it is crucial that water supply is not yet 
another variable.
    Without this path to survivability, I have no doubt we will watch 
as our Basin continues to lose farmland. The effect of such a loss will 
without question take an economic, cultural, and environmental toll on 
the Basin, not to mention impact our nation's food supply chain that 
gets over 55% of its carrot seed and significant portion of other seed 
crops from Central Oregon.
Opportunities for Federal Assistance
    As we continue to work toward water management future that supports 
all of the values in the Basin, I'd like to highlight a couple areas of 
federal policy that are important to these efforts.
    I realize some of this is preaching to the choir. We all certainly 
recognize and want to thank Congresswoman Chavez-DeRemer, and other 
Members of Congress recognized here today, for your active support for 
agriculture and natural resources in Oregon. We appreciate you being 
such an important voice for western irrigated agriculture on the House 
Agriculture Committee. We look forward to continuing to work with you 
as you push your bipartisan proposals in the Farm Bill aimed at 
enhancing support for farmers, ranchers, and foresters, along with your 
work with Oregon's congressional delegation to push for federal 
disaster declarations and resources for communities affected by 
wildfires.
Support for Infrastructure Investments and Programs
    As referenced above, the NRCS PL-566 program has been an essential 
tool to Central Oregon. Currently, Central Oregon's irrigation 
districts have roughly $350 million of projects that can move quickly 
through design, bid, and construction, and the majority of them are 
included in PL-566 watershed plans.
    There has been increasing concern with the recent refocusing of the 
program away from multi-purpose water management projects and rather 
focusing on single purpose flood control projects. We think it is 
critical that the program maintain balance in terms of the types and 
phase of projects, along with regional balance.

    We also encourage the Agency and Congress to consider steps that 
can help streamline and improved the PL-566 planning and construction 
process, including:

     Increase the statutory cap on construction cost from $25 
            million to $50 million. This limit has remained the same 
            for decades even as inflation has raised the cost of 
            materials used for irrigation piping projects.

     Ensure the program relies on the authority of the State 
            Conservationists to make final selection of watershed plans 
            and projects in their respective states. No two states and 
            no two watersheds are exactly alike. Maintaining local 
            control over the WFPO decision making process is important 
            to ensuring that the program is utilized in the most 
            efficient manner possible in each state.

    Funding of the program is also important. The DBBC strongly 
supports provisions in the Farm Bill that increase the annual mandatory 
funding for the PL-566 program and efforts take steps to ensure that 
irrigation modernization is eligible under other NRCS conservation 
programs. Congresswoman, we know these are both issues you have 
championed on the Committee--please let us know if you need anything 
from us as you fight the good fight.
    I would also like to thank Representatives Bentz and Chavez-DeRemer 
for their support for ensuring existing drought related funding and 
investments are allocated to Central Oregon and would ask for you to 
continue the drum beat on that issue. Our Basin is still dry and one 
year of good hydrology hasn't bailed us out from the historic, multi-
year drought. Please don't let the federal agencies forget about us as 
they move on to the next crisis.
    Lastly, Support for future funding for water infrastructure 
programs at the Bureau of Reclamation, USDA, and other agencies is also 
important. While we all certainly appreciate the need to be good 
stewards of tax payer dollars, these investments easily pay themselves 
back and are crucial to the region.
Increased Certainty
    Certainty is the cornerstone of collaborative, locally-driven 
environmental and ESA solutions. If there is a constant cycle of 
litigating, reopening, or layering new regulations and restrictions on 
water users it creates a huge challenge for water managers and their 
boards to commit to collaborative solutions or invest money in the 
projects that make them work. Federal policy should reward basins like 
the Deschutes that develop cooperative and workable solutions to their 
problems in any way it can.
Conclusion
    Thank you again for allowing me to testify at this hearing today 
and for all of you taking the time to be here. The Deschutes Basin can 
be a model of how to constructively work through water challenges and 
find solutions that work for everyone. We look forward to working with 
all of you to continuing moving forward with these efforts.
    I look forward to answering any questions you have.

                                 ______
                                 

    Mr. Bentz. Thank you, Mr. Larkin. I now recognize 
Commissioner DeBone for 5 minutes.

 STATEMENT OF ANTHONY DeBONE, COMMISSIONER, DESCHUTES COUNTY, 
                          BEND, OREGON

    Mr. DeBone. Thank you very much, and good morning to Chair 
Bentz and Congresswomen Chavez-DeRemer and Hoyle, and out-of-
state Representatives. Thank you very much for joining us 
today. Thank you for conducting this field hearing in our 
community. I am Deschutes County Commissioner Tony DeBone. I 
live in southern Deschutes County, about 45 miles south of 
here.
    The Deschutes River flows from south to north, all the way 
to the Columbia River, and then out to the Pacific Ocean. On 
October 2 of this year, Deschutes County, we just adopted the 
Deschutes County 2040 Comprehensive Plan. This is a 20-year 
vision document with goals and objectives pertaining to the 
conservation and development of the lands outside of our four 
incorporated cities of Bend, Redmond, Sisters, and Lapine. And 
we have a population of just over 200,000 and growing.
    Quoting from our Comp Plan, ``The Deschutes River and its 
tributaries serve as the region's surface water resources. 
Surface water rights in the upper Deschutes Basin are fully 
allocated, meaning no new surface water rights can be issued. 
Approximately 86 percent of the basin water rights are 
associated with agriculture, 12 percent associated with 
instream uses and 2 percent associated with municipal uses.''
    I am going to read from our goals in the water section in 
here. Goal 5.1, ``Support regional comprehensive water 
management solutions that balance the diverse needs of water 
users and recognize Oregon water law.'' Goal 5.2, ``Increase 
water efficiency and conservation efforts among all users, 
including homeowners and businesses.'' Goal 5.3, ``Maintain and 
enhance a healthy ecosystem in the Deschutes River Basin.'' 
Goal 5.4, ``Maintaining enhanced fish and riparian-dependent 
wildlife habitat.'' And Goal 5.5, ``Coordinate land use and 
water policies to address management and allocation of water in 
Deschutes County.'' As I say, this is from our published 
Comprehensive Plan from last week.
    Water is the resource that gives life to people living 
here. In the upper Deschutes Basin, from Crescent Lake in 
northern Klamath County that feeds the Little Deschutes River 
to Spring River and Fall River, then they all merge to the main 
Deschutes River, flowing water is an asset for all of us. 
Recreationally, these rivers are used for floating and boating 
in the summer in southern Deschutes County by Sun River to the 
middle Deschutes River in Bend and beyond. We all love these 
rivers.
    As commissioners, we support these ongoing efforts: water 
conservation efforts funded by the USDA Natural Resources 
Conservation Service that are helping pipe Central Oregon's 
irrigation canals; Central Oregon Cities Organization's effort 
to conserve water while meeting their legal responsibilities to 
prepare and plan for growth; and also efforts to improve on 
farm irrigation efficiency measures.
    Now for a few project ideas. A future project that I 
support is the City of Bend providing reuse water from their 
wastewater processing plant to the North Unit Irrigation 
District. There are about 14,000 acre-feet of class A processed 
and sterilized water available. The State Department of 
Environmental Quality owns this issue, but this Committee may 
be able to help move that along.
    Walking in the room today, a couple of folks were talking 
topics, and it came up: low-cost firm power from our hydro 
systems. We really appreciate that here.
    And then also, water is serious business. Residential wells 
do go dry. We are in a dry period. And acknowledging that and 
managing the future is very important for everyone.
    Thank you very much for conducting this hearing in our 
home, right here in Redmond at the Deschutes County 
Fairgrounds.

    [The prepared statement of Mr. DeBone follows:]
   Prepared Statement of Tony DeBone, Commissioner, Deschutes County

    Good morning Chair Bentz and members Subcommittee on Water, 
Wildlife and Fisheries.
    I am Deschutes County Commissioner Tony DeBone. I live in Southern 
Deschutes County about 45 miles south of here. The Deschutes River 
flows from South to North all the way to the Columbia river and then 
out to the Pacific Ocean.
    On October 2 of this year Deschutes County we just adopted the 
Deschutes County 2040 Comprehensive Plan. This is a 20 year vision 
document with goals and objectives pertaining to conservation and 
development for the lands outside of our 4 incorporated cities of Bend, 
Redmond, Sisters and La Pine. We have a population of just over 200 
Thousand and growing.
    Quoting from our Comp. Plan: ``The Deschutes River and its 
tributaries serve as the region's surface water resources. Surface 
water rights in the Upper Deschutes Basin are fully allocated, meaning 
no new surface water rights can be issued. Approximately 86% of basin 
water rights are associated with agriculture, 12% associated with 
instream uses, and 2% associated with municipal uses.''
Water Goals and Policies

    Goal 5.1: Support regional, comprehensive water management 
solutions that balance the diverse needs of water users and recognize 
Oregon water law.

    Goal 5.2: Increase water efficiency and conservation efforts among 
all users, including homeowners and businesses.

    Goal 5.3: Maintain and enhance a healthy ecosystem in the Deschutes 
River Basin.

    Goal 5.4: Maintain and enhance fish and riparian-dependent wildlife 
habitat.

    Goal 5.5: Coordinate land use and water policies to address 
management and allocation of water in Deschutes County.

    Water is the resources that gives life to people living here. In 
the Upper Deschutes Basin, from Crescent Lake in Northern Klamath 
County that feed the little Deschutes River to Spring River and Fall 
River then all merge to the main Deschutes River, flowing water is an 
asset for all of us. Recreationally these rivers are used for floating 
and boating in the summer. In Southern Deschutes County, by Sunriver 
and to the middle Deschutes River in Bend and beyond, we all love these 
rivers.

    As commissioners we support these ongoing efforts:

     Water conservation efforts (funded by USDA Natural 
            Resources Conservation Service) that are helping to pipe 
            Central Oregon's irrigation canals.

     Central Oregon Cities Organization's efforts to conserve 
            water while meeting their legal responsibilities to prepare 
            and plan for growth; and

     Efforts to improve on-farm irrigation efficiency measures.

    A future project that I support is the city of Bend to provide 
reuse water from their water processing plant for the North Unit 
Irrigation needs. There is 14,000 acre feet of Class A processed and 
sterilized water available. This is a State of Oregon Department of 
Environmental Quality issue that this committee might be able to help 
move along.
    Thank you for conducting this hearing in our home, right here in 
Redmond at the Deschutes County fairgrounds.
    Thank to our Congresswoman Lori Chavez-DeRemer for representing us 
in Washington DC and Congressman Cliff Bentz for bringing us together 
here today!

                                 ______
                                 

    Mr. Bentz. Thank you, Commissioner. I want to thank the 
witnesses for their testimony. I will now recognize Members for 
5 minutes each for questions. We will begin with Congresswoman 
Hoyle.
    You are recognized for 5 minutes.
    Ms. Hoyle. Thank you. I have a comment, then questions.
    We do need our communities, tribes, and the Federal 
Government at the table if we want to seriously address 
Oregon's water, drought, and wildfire challenges. We have 
gotten it wrong before by excluding key voices on issues like 
salmon restoration. Those mistakes have impacted more than just 
fish. Getting tribes, the Federal Government, the timber 
industry, and local communities to work together is hard, but 
it is absolutely necessary. We are failing at our current 
approach, and everyone here can see that.
    Congress must act, and that will require bipartisan 
collaboration and compromise. I would like to give kudos to 
House Natural Resources Chairman Bruce Westerman, the only 
trained forester in Congress, and Congressman Scott Peters for 
their bipartisan leadership and work on H.R. 8790, the Fix Our 
Forests Act. I voted no on that because, as my mother always 
said, no money, no mission, and there was no funding attached 
to it. So, I am pushing for a final wildfire package to include 
more tools for Federal land managers, tribes, states, and the 
firefighters who are doing the difficult work to make permanent 
the increase in wildland firefighter pay so we don't lose 30 to 
50 percent of our wildland firefighters before our next fire 
season.
    This year, wildfires burned 7.8 million acres across the 
country; 1.49 million acres were burned in my district, and a 
lot of the rest was burned in Representative Bentz's district. 
Before I went to DC this whole summer I would pack my to-go bag 
in case we were evacuated while I was gone. So, this is 
personal, and I will work with our Senators, I have already 
talked to them, and my Republican and Democratic colleagues to 
get that bill passed with funding so that we can make that 
happen. We need the resources to turn collaboration into 
action, and the Federal Government needs to step up to provide 
that support.
    But one of the things I want to work on in my next term is 
tribal co-management of our forests. For millennia, our Native 
American tribes have figured out how to get it right. And in 
115 years of fire suppression and various land management 
decisions, we now have forests that will burn with hotter and 
drier conditions. So with that, I guess my question would be to 
Mr. Brunoe. How is tribal forest management different from 
Federal forest management?
    I know you could talk about that all day, but how can we 
bring your success onto our Federal lands?
    Mr. Brunoe. Thank you for the question. As I mentioned in 
my opening remarks, we have three different national forests 
along our boundaries: the Deschutes, the Willamette, and the 
Mount Hood. And there is a stark difference between when you 
look at the boundaries and the work that we have done for 
forestry on our side of the boundary versus on the other side 
of the boundary on the national forest. We actively manage our 
forest, we do a lot of fuels reduction work as much as possible 
with the minimal funding that we receive, and we also are 
looking at what is happening with disease.
    We do not have any wilderness areas on our reservation. We 
have places that we call conditional use areas that are special 
places. But if there is an issue or a problem there such as 
there has been wildland fire, we go in and treat it after the 
fire. If there is a bug outbreak in those areas, we will go 
treat it. It is not part of our commercial base for us, but 
that is one of the differences between us and the Forest 
Service on how we do work.
    We also need more funding for our programs. We are woefully 
funded compared to the Forest Service and to the BLM and in 
comparison, and that is in the written testimony, you will see 
that later. And we really need some help there to be able to do 
more of this good work that we are trying to do and complete, 
and trying to do more prescribed fire. But again, it is just 
really a lack of funding.
    But we do manage all of our forest and try to maintain it 
as best we can. And this year has been a record year for 
wildland fire, and we have been lucky not to get so many fires 
on our forest. We have 444,000 acres in our forest land base. 
We were hit with a bunch of lightning, but perhaps because of 
our forest management we didn't get the large fires such as 
other places.
    Ms. Hoyle. Thank you.
    Mr. Bentz. Do you yield back?
    Ms. Hoyle. Sorry, I yield back.
    Mr. Bentz. Thank you. The Chair recognizes Congressman 
Newhouse for 5 minutes.
    Mr. Newhouse. Thank you, Chairman Bentz and Congresswoman 
Chavez-DeRemer. I would also like to thank our witnesses today 
for sharing with us your perspectives on this very important 
topic.
    As I said in my opening introduction, I am Chairman of the 
Congressional Western Caucus. And one of the goals of the 
caucus is to bring Members of Congress out to the real world 
throughout the country. So, I particularly appreciate being 
here in Oregon to talk firsthand to people and listen to what 
the concerns are, the challenges, and then, in turn, my hope is 
that we can bring what we learned today back to Washington, DC 
and help our colleagues there make better decisions as it 
relates to what is important to people out here.
    As I said also, I am a farmer. I understand how critical 
water is to agriculture, certainly throughout the arid West. It 
is not without challenges to make sure people get the adequate 
water that they need, and one of those challenges surrounds the 
impact on our watersheds.
    And Ms. Hoyle talked about forest fires. Those disastrous 
fires occur, it seems, with more intensity and more regularity 
every year, and we have to address it. If we don't properly 
manage our forests, then we are only hurting the species that 
we supposedly are aiming to recover, and certainly our water 
communities rely on us doing so.
    I believe public and private partnerships are critical to 
species recovery, delivering water to farmers, and promoting 
that forest health to have a balanced ecosystem and productive 
agricultural communities. It is so important that we work 
together to face these issues, and that is why I want to truly 
applaud what is happening in the Deschutes River Basin. Someone 
used the term ``model'' for what is going on here, and I think 
that is absolutely true.
    I live in the Yakima River Basin, and we see a similar kind 
of relationship that has been built between all of those people 
that are interested in the river. I see it in the Columbia 
River Basin, as well, people working together to achieve 
important goals. All of these projects are absolutely critical 
to the communities that they serve, and that is why this is 
such a great opportunity to hear from people, from these 
witnesses, so that we can understand better how to conserve 
water not just here, but in other areas throughout the West. 
So, thank you.
    One of my priorities in Congress has been to advance 
reforms to the Endangered Species Act, something that for over 
50 years, in my humble opinion, cannot show a track record of 
something that we can be proud of. If we truly want to save 
endangered species, then we need to get more serious about 
that. But recently, the Chairman of the Committee, Mr. 
Westerman, and I and others, I believe Mr. Bentz was part of 
this, we introduced legislation to reform the ESA.
    So, around that, Mr. Larkin, if I could, I would like to 
hear more from you about the issues that you faced as it 
relates to water and conservation, and particularly this 
spotted frog that I keep hearing about. And plus now I guess 
there are other species. Maybe there is a mussel also that is 
included in some of the work that is being done. So, if you 
could, expound on some of the challenges you faced and what you 
are doing there.
    Mr. Larkin. Yes, thank you. Yes, we have these species. We 
have had the spotted frog for a lot of years. It is something 
in our real estate world that we have had to actually disclose, 
the impact that it does have on water and property to let the 
person or the investor kind of know some of those challenges 
and stuff. There are other species that are coming up that I 
don't know a whole lot about at this point and stuff.
    But as far as what we do as operators, we work continuously 
to get more innovative with our irrigation programs and being 
able to stretch our water, become more efficient. We work on 
different forages and we plant different forages to kind of 
help offset that because the water is being affected by all of 
this. But I think that there is a harmony that we can reach 
with everything into consideration.
    And doing the work that DBBC is doing and conserving this 
water and doing more piping and stuff, I think, is going to 
play a major role in helping us get through some of those 
challenges. But yes, it is an ongoing, everyday deal that we as 
ranchers and operators fight.
    Mr. Newhouse. Good, good. Well, thank you. Again, I 
appreciate you guys all being here and sharing with us. 
Unfortunately, 5 minutes goes by very, very quickly.
    Mr. Chairman, I yield back.
    Mr. Bentz. The Chair recognizes Congresswoman Chavez-
DeRemer for 5 minutes.
    Mrs. Chavez-DeRemer. Thank you, Chairman.
    Dr. Backsen, thank you again for being here today. It is 
great to see you. I really appreciate you detailing the 
creative approaches you have taken as a small business owner 
and as a farmer to address the water shortages. My question for 
you is, from your perspective, is there anything else that the 
Federal Government could do to help other farms and small 
business owners like yourself mitigate those drought 
challenges?
    Dr. Backsen. I think I would like to go back to a lot of 
this was caused by the Endangered Species Act. I think that 
needs to be addressed by the Federal Government. The rate that 
they have taken endangered species off the Endangered Species 
Act is 4 percent. If I had that kind of success rate in my 
practice treating animals, I wouldn't be practicing very long. 
So, it is something that needs to be reformed.
    I agree with the collaboration that is going on with the 
Deschutes Basin stuff. We have sent multiple FOIA requests to 
Fish and Wildlife, who is supposed to manage the recovery plan 
for the Oregon spotted frog. What we have gotten back is they 
have done pretty much nothing. The water districts are giving 
them $150,000 per year. They should be up to around $600,000. 
At our last FOIA request at the end of 2023, they had only 
spent around $50,000. The bullfrog eats the spotted frog, the 
bullfrog lays 20,000 eggs a year. The spotted frog lays 600. 
So, unless you remove the invasive species, the spotted frog, 
it doesn't matter how much water it has, it is not going to 
make any difference because you are increasing the habitat for 
the bullfrog that is this big and munches every life stage of 
the spotted frog.
    So, I think the collaboration is wonderful, but it is not 
working. And, I mean, it is great to come out there, but we 
have Federal agencies that are not managing it, they won't tell 
us what the frog counts are. In 2022, they didn't even count 
the frog masses because there was snow up there, we are 
releasing water in the winter time, and that water should be 
stored in the reservoir.
    And the other fact is a lot of the science--we have 
biologists that are working with us. A lot of the science I 
don't think is right. And hopefully, with the new Chevron 
Deference Act, that can be readdressed. Our biologists are, 
like, maybe the irrigation that we have put since the 1940s has 
actually preserved that population of spotted frogs. It has 
disappeared along the rest of the state.
    So, like I said, we need more efficiency of the Fish and 
Wildlife who aren't doing their job, or at least they are not 
giving any public information. We are just going along. North 
Unit is really heavily affected, which is where our farm ground 
is. Those farmers are devastated. There is enough water for 
everything, but their premise is if we don't get rid of the 
invasive species, the spotted frog is going to be gone.
    Mrs. Chavez-DeRemer. Thank you, Dr. Backsen.
    Mr. Larkin, in your testimony you mentioned that the 
important indirect benefits of protecting irrigated agriculture 
in the basin, including the ability of homeowners to find 
affordable wildfire insurance, and we have heard that a lot 
across the West, which I know is becoming increasingly 
challenging. Can you expand just a little bit about the 
challenges you are seeing with the availability of insurance, 
and how the presence of irrigation plays in that issue?
    Mr. Larkin. Yes, thank you. One of the things that we have 
been seeing in the real estate world is, with the wildfires and 
the devastating losses that have been out there, there has been 
a lot of insurance companies that have just made insurance 
astronomical if they are going to cover it. Many insurances are 
denying coverage. You can have insurance as a property owner, 
and if you sell your property there is no guarantee that that 
same insurance company is going to carry it on with the new 
ownership.
    So, we are actually making it a contingency right now on 
these lands. The sale is contingent upon the buyer being able 
to find suitable insurance that makes sense to them for that 
property. And if not, the sale does not go through.
    I also think that, with the urban sprawl and stuff like 
that, we need to keep a buffer around our cities and areas 
there because that is where our fire protection is, is with 
that irrigated land. And if we let that go, between that and 
the insurance companies and stuff, the whole fire that is 
basically its own economy right now in some ways, it has just 
taken things over, and it is going to devastate and shut us all 
down completely and just run costs through the roof. And it is 
going to put the people that are growing food for the world and 
stuff like that out of business.
    Mrs. Chavez-DeRemer. Thank you, Mr. Larkin. Unfortunately, 
my time has expired for the rest of my questions, and I will 
yield back.
    Mr. Bentz. Just to let everybody know, we are going to have 
a second round of questions.
    Mrs. Chavez-DeRemer. OK.
    Mr. Bentz. So, not too much whining, please, about too 
little time.
    Mrs. Chavez-DeRemer. I am sorry.
    [Laughter.]
    Mr. Bentz. Moving now to Congresswoman Maloy for 5 minutes.
    Ms. Maloy. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I will try to refrain 
from whining. And now I won't speak at double speed because I 
know I have a second round.
    At the beginning of this hearing, Chairman Bentz said local 
control over water is a good idea, and I wrote that down 
because I agree. I represent a very dry district and a very dry 
state, and we can see instinctively that Mr. Brunoe is correct, 
that water is one of the best gifts our Creator has given us, 
and we have to make sure that we are using it as wisely as we 
possibly can. I know everybody in the West is feeling that.
    To that end, I introduced the Water Rights Protection Act 
to make it clear that states have control over water rights, 
and Federal agencies can't require co-ownership of water rights 
as a condition of Federal permits, and that is something that 
we have had issues with in Utah with both livestock grazing and 
ski resorts. So, that is one of the things we are doing in 
Congress to help.
    Commissioner DeBone, I spent the early part of my career at 
NRCS doing conservation projects, and then I had another career 
before this one as a deputy county attorney where I represented 
the county in natural resources matters. And I appreciate the 
work the counties do to manage natural resources while also 
protecting the health, safety, and welfare of their residents. 
You laid out five clear goals that your county has articulated, 
and I recognize, having worked at the state, county, and now 
Federal level, that a lot of times the Federal Government is an 
impediment to you being able to achieve those goals.
    In a post-Chevron world, where the court has said that 
agencies are not due the deference they have had for the last 4 
years, what impediments can we help remove so that you can 
achieve those goals?
    Mr. DeBone. Thank you for the question. This is the state 
of Oregon. We have a statewide land use planning system. It has 
been about 50 years now. We are working through this process. 
This is a clear delineation between the land use authority, the 
application process, the approvals that happen at our desk, and 
then water is managed by the state. So, I don't come to a 
specific ask as you answer that question, but just the domain 
we live in here.
    The history of the partnership of the Deschutes River 
Conservancy from 1996, the Endangered Species Act was talked 
about all those years. It is very important to know that water 
comes and goes. We are in a dry spell right now. And, as I say, 
I was talking to Representative Hoyle, and I think someday 
there will be a wet spell and we will be floating, you know? 
But it is not right now, obviously.
    So, empowering the state to really be clear and decisive 
and responsive to water needs and water collaboration efforts 
that we do at our local level is probably the most valuable 
thing we can do right now.
    Ms. Maloy. Thank you.
    Dr. Backsen, I was listening to your testimony and what I 
heard you saying is that local businesses have been hit hard by 
inflation and regulation, and those are both things that we 
have some responsibility for.
    The good news, Congresswoman Chavez-DeRemer and I co-led 
the FREE Act, which simplifies and streamlines Federal 
permitting to try to remove one of those impediments. I have 
been part of this, again, at multiple levels, where getting a 
permit from the Federal Government sometimes takes years, and 
years cost money, projects get more expensive, and you are 
paying for all of the process of getting the permit.
    But again, same question: In a post-Chevron world, 
regulations need to be simplified and collaboration shouldn't 
be a detriment. What impediments would you like to see us 
removing to make it so that small businesses can thrive in 
Oregon?
    Dr. Backsen. I think that is a great start, and I 
appreciate that you guys have introduced that Act. I think 
other regulations, there are a lot of state regulations, a lot 
of local regulations and stuff that is hard when you are a 
small business. But I applaud that you guys are introducing 
that.
    We have a serious shortage of workers out there, of 
employees. It is very hard to find. Every business owner that I 
talk with has the same problem. People are kind of trading 
employees, and everyone is going out and head hunting and oh, 
you are great, you want to come to work. So, that is a really 
frustrating thing, and I don't know where we go with that. How 
do we get people back into the workforce that I think a lot of 
people have left?
    So, those are a lot of our big challenges, other than yes, 
I think those are kind of the main challenges, regulations and 
labor, in my opinion.
    Ms. Maloy. Thank you. I will just say quickly as my time 
expires, it has been my experience that when Federal regulation 
gets too onerous, local regulation starts to mimic it. So, if 
we can streamline the Federal regulation, even though we have 
no jurisdiction over state and local regulation, it will 
probably also help ease that burden.
    And with that, Mr. Chairman, I yield back.
    Mr. Bentz. Thank you, Congressman Maloy. I recognize myself 
for 5 minutes.
    I had occasion to travel four times now down to the Central 
Valley in California, who has not taken the type of steps they 
probably should have and probably regret not taking when it 
comes to accessing our groundwater. The valley is settling in 
some places 40 feet, and that is because the groundwater has 
been exhausted in those spaces. So, there is no doubt, though, 
that the local community has to stand up and try to do 
something. But when it means putting your livelihood at risk, 
it is very hard to do that.
    Doctor, is it your thought, you mentioned collaboratives 
have a place where you try to get the local community together, 
but you then said it doesn't seem to be working, and you 
identified the U.S. Fish and Wildlife as the problem when it 
comes to the frog. Are there other Federal agencies that you 
would want to call out while you have Congress sitting here, a 
portion of it, that you----
    [Laughter.]
    Mr. Bentz. This is your chance. So, who else?
    Dr. Backsen. Uh-oh, am I going to be on a hit list?
    [Laughter.]
    Dr. Backsen. Yes. Right now, I think our biggest 
frustration is with Fish and Wildlife, because they are the 
ones that are in control of managing the endangered species. 
And one frustrating thing that I am seeing about that too is we 
look back years ago, when the spotted frog was an issue and 
logging got decimated in this state. And now I just read where 
the Fish and Wildlife are putting out a hit on over a half a 
million barred owls because they found out that the barred owls 
were killing the spotted frog.
    Mr. Bentz. The spotted owl.
    Dr. Backsen. Or spotted owl, sorry. And they are probably 
killing the spotted frog, too, because they get munched by 
everything.
    [Laughter.]
    Dr. Backsen. So, I really think right now the big 
impediment is that, and they don't seem like they are moving 
forward at all. To me, I would expect to find numbers every 
year of how many bullfrogs they have gone in there and got rid 
of, how many invasive species of grass like the reed grass, and 
what are the counts.
    This is year four. It started in 2020. It is year four that 
the farmers, especially in Jefferson County, are not growing 
crops and are going out of business. And why aren't we seeing 
the results of that?
    Mr. Bentz. OK, because I have seen in the 4 years almost 
that I have been in Congress lots and lots of talk and very 
little action. What I try to do in situations like this is say, 
fine, we will write the letter.
    Dr. Backsen. Good.
    Mr. Bentz. I am sure that this group will. More to the 
point, you write the letter, get it to us, and we will tinker 
with it a bit and then we will send it. So, there is an action 
item for you.
    Dr. Backsen. I appreciate that.
    Mr. Bentz. I am going to move away from you now to Mr. 
Larkin.
    Mr. Larkin, the land use laws that the Commissioner 
mentioned impose restrictions on what the land can be used for 
once you take the water away from it. There is no sudden thing 
that happens when your water disappears that suddenly you can 
subdivide, because the land use laws still apply. So, in a lot 
of ways, and I am not suggesting that subdivision is the answer 
at all, but what I am suggesting is that there doesn't seem to 
be a response at the state level that protects you guys either.
    So, not that I am trying to avoid responsibility, but do 
you have suggestions that you would make right now, today to 
people at the state level to try to help address what you see 
happening in your real estate business? Because I am guessing 
that, as water is diminished, then these properties go up for 
sale at dramatically reduced values because they don't have 
water. So, what would you ask be done to help people out, if 
anything, at the land use level statewide?
    Mr. Larkin. From the state side of things, I think that 
they are just going about it a lot more carefully, doing a lot 
more studying.
    But I think density comes and plays a role in the expansion 
of the urban growth boundaries and the urban holding areas and 
stuff like that. As we bring that ground in, because we are 
growing leaps and bounds, we have a huge housing shortage not 
only in our area, but also across the nation and stuff. And I 
think they need to free up some more options with some of these 
rural properties because not everybody wants to live on a 4,000 
square-foot lot in town.
    So, they would start out with the tight densities, and then 
they would go out and make the bigger lots, and bigger lots, 
and stuff, and I think that there just needs to be a lot more 
thought and study on that to best represent all sectors of the 
population for that, and make sure that we don't lose our water 
that we have other places to go put that water for the land 
that we had to sacrifice for that.
    Mr. Bentz. Thank you. My time is up, so I recognize 
Congresswoman Hoyle for 5 minutes.
    Ms. Hoyle. Thank you, Chair Bentz.
    I have had the good fortune of working with Representative 
Bentz since 2009 in one capacity or another. And although we 
are in different parties and have different ideas many times on 
how to get somewhere, we both really want what is best for our 
districts. And again, we are really devastated by wildfires 
over the past few years. And in talking with him about how do 
we approach something that can be bipartisan, can get done, 
what he pointed out as a lawyer focused on water is how 
devastating these fires that are burning hotter and larger are 
affecting our aquifer and our water table because they are 
actually baking the ground. So, it really is all connected.
    Dr. Backsen, when you talked about workforce, again, 
workforce is something I focused on for my entire career, one 
of the largest issues in getting workforce is that we don't 
have the housing. I know everywhere in my district it is mostly 
half a percent vacancy or less, right? Eugene has 1.6 percent. 
That is the most. I think you are similar right here in 
Deschutes County. But when we are building housing, we have to 
figure out how to build housing in places where there is enough 
water and where it is not going to burn.
    And all of this is really connected, and we can no longer 
approach things in the sort of timber wars philosophy of cut, 
don't cut, initial attack, not initial attack, which brings me 
back to Mr. Brunoe again.
    I want to ask you, how do you see the relationship between 
forest health and water quality, and how can Congress better 
support tribal involvement in forest and water management? 
Because, again, it is all connected and I really do think that 
our Tribal Nations are an important part of this path out of 
our issue.
    Mr. Brunoe. Thank you for the question. And listening to 
conversation here, it got me thinking about forest health and 
having functioning systems and healthy watersheds, and having 
functioning meadow systems again that are capturing water, 
storing it, and beneficially releasing that water, healthy 
wetlands and having those functional to help capture waters. 
And that water being captured would not only be for surface 
water, but also for groundwater.
    So, we have a lot of systems that are not real healthy 
right now, and we need to do a lot of restoration work to 
restore the functionality of those systems in our forests. And 
I always think about the upper watersheds, and we don't tend to 
focus there as much as we used to. And I think we need to do a 
lot more work there.
    Ms. Hoyle. Thank you. And then very briefly, Mr. Brunoe, 
tribes have worked closely with various stakeholders on water 
management. What are some of the key lessons, really quickly, 
learned from this collaboration that could be applied to other 
basins?
    Mr. Brunoe. We have been at this for a while now since the 
1990s. The collaborative has started after the water summit 
between the state and the tribes as co-managers on water and 
other resources, and having everybody at the table and 
listening to their views, and trying to understand those, and 
trying to move forward, and balancing these needs of all that 
you have heard today between the communities. The water in the 
rivers for fish for us is very important for the tribes, and 
having this open dialog with each other, we may not always 
agree but we always are still at the table with each other, 
working with each other, listening to each other, and trying to 
move forward with good solutions, and developing strategies 
that can help us into the future, and coming up with creative 
ideas and being able to move forward with that.
    So, I really enjoy working with the collaborative and all 
the folks that are participating in it, and I think we are 
making some headway, maybe not as fast as we would like at 
times, but moving things forward in a good trend.
    Ms. Hoyle. Thank you for your leadership.
    I yield back.
    Mr. Bentz. Thank you. The Chair recognizes Congressman 
Newhouse for 5 minutes.
    Mr. Newhouse. Thank you, Mr. Bentz, Mr. Chairman.
    Being in the state of Washington I am used to hearing a lot 
about minimum stream flows for fish. It is an important part of 
management. And now we are hearing more about minimum stream 
flows for frogs, as well. A little bit different twist there.
    Mr. Bentz touched on this when he talked about the value of 
the land without water. I would just like to hear a little bit 
about what potentially the future of the river basin looks like 
without the proper management that is necessary to accomplish 
the goals that you have set out, and what the future looks like 
for the irrigators in the region. Would anybody would like to 
touch on that?
    Dr. Backsen, Mr. Larkin, perhaps, or whoever would like to, 
or County Commissioner?
    Dr. Backsen. I would love to touch on that. It is pretty 
sad. At least down in Jefferson County, we are also talking 
about regulations. Down there you cannot subdivide your 
farmland less than 80 acres. If you have a 300-acre thing, 
there is not a way to put houses on that or break it down and 
subdivide it if you can't use it. Basically, you have empty 
ground that is just full of weeds, it is brown. It is not 
accomplishing anything.
    One suggestion that I think funding should be done for is 
to reduce the junipers along the rivers and in lands. I know 
that they are doing this out in Prineville, Paulina, stuff like 
that. Junipers are kind of like weeds. If you ever look at 
pictures of Bend and the area from years ago, there are very 
few juniper trees.
    Mr. Newhouse. Oh, right.
    Dr. Backsen. They are like weeds. And when they catch fire, 
they just explode. So, if those can be removed, they drink 40 
to 50 gallons a day of water. By removing some of those, and 
considering those an invasive species, and keeping the other 
trees, the pines, the other trees and keeping them healthy 
would be really good.
    I think the other thing is Oregon, and I don't know if this 
is Federal or state, when we have a fire they don't go in and 
clean out any of the debris. When you drive over the mountain, 
it is awful. It is just burnt stuff. Instead of allowing the 
loggers to come in, take that out so we can get a new 
ecosystem, so we can get new plants, we can get new trees 
growing there, it is just left to rot. And I don't think that 
is good for the environment, it is not good for the wildlife 
and good for the other species and the plants and stuff that 
are in that area.
    Mr. Newhouse. Or provide kindling for the next fire.
    Dr. Backsen. You are right.
    Mr. Newhouse. Yes, certainly a lot of the conversation that 
we have heard celebrates the collaboration, and rightfully so, 
this area should be applauded for people working together of 
diverse interests. I wanted to hear a bit of a reaction to Mr. 
Bentz's point that he made about further Federal control. I am 
a proponent of local control is best, and I just would like to 
hear some reaction to Federal control over groundwater.
    And for some reason, Mr. Brunoe, I am thinking of you, some 
of the comments you made were very, it meant a lot to me 
listening to some of the similar situations that we face in 
Washington. But if you would like to, react to that potential 
Federal control that could grow.
    Mr. Brunoe. Thank you. I have not thought about groundwater 
with Federal control that much. When you say that, it makes me 
think about our water settlement agreement. The tribes, we have 
a water settlement agreement that we have for all the water on 
our lands and bordering our lands, which includes groundwater. 
But it also makes me think about our trustee. And our trustee 
is the Federal Government to look out for these resources for 
us. And that being water, the fish, the wildlife, all these 
natural resources that are very important to us.
    So, I would have to think about that some more on the 
groundwater and Federal, but that is where my mind went to when 
you asked that question, is it made me immediately think about 
our water settlement agreement. And part of our job is looking 
out for that water settlement agreement that is not affected by 
others using water in the basin that could create injury on our 
water.
    And we are the oldest water rights holder in the Deschutes 
Basin. Time immemorial is our water right.
    Mr. Newhouse. OK, thank you. Those on the ground, those 
local, to me, always seem to have a better opportunity to make 
the better decisions than somebody that has not even been here 
before. So, that would be my reaction to that kind of a 
potential future.
    But thank you very much, Mr. Bentz, I yield back.
    Mr. Bentz. Thank you.
    Congresswoman Chavez-DeRemer, you are recognized for 5 
minutes.
    Mrs. Chavez-DeRemer. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    Mr. Gaylord, in your testimony you share the science behind 
the geomatic data that you collect in your practice. Can you 
tell us a little bit more what happens with the data when you 
compile it? Who analyzes it? Who is primarily receiving it and 
interpreting it? And then how does your work fit into what 
these concerns are? And do all that in just a few minutes.
    [Laughter.]
    Mr. Gaylord. No problem. The programs that I mentioned, 
3DEP and the 3DHP and such, are housed with U.S. Geological 
Survey, so that data is collected.
    The purpose of 3DEP was to get all of the data sets in the 
United States through the different Federal agencies onto one 
standard and one measurement standard, so that it was 
consistent and could be shared between the different Federal 
agencies. So, currently that is housed there.
    As we discuss who manages it, who analyzes it, Chairman 
Bentz mentioned the use of AI. As we look at the watersheds and 
using these tools that are available with that data, analyzing 
it with the reduced snowfall to know if our systems are in the 
right place for the future and where that water is going and 
things like that is important. Surveyors have a role in that to 
continue to collect the data and help manage that, but the 
scientists, of course, will be the ones to analyze the water 
aspect of it.
    Mrs. Chavez-DeRemer. Thank you.
    Mr. Brunoe, you highlighted many different collaborative 
projects that the tribes engaged in, whether it is with PGE, 
the Deschutes Basin Water Collaborative, or the DRC. It was 
kind of asked what you see as your next opportunity for the 
tribe to be innovative in its water and infrastructure space. 
But even going further than that, who are you missing in the 
mix, and who do you wish was at the table?
    Mr. Brunoe. Good question. We have been working very 
closely, as you have heard, with all our neighbors here in the 
basin.
    One of the groups that we work with is the state of Oregon, 
because they are a co-manager, and we have been talking to them 
regularly about their strategic plan that we support and moving 
forward on what that may look like into the future.
    The other side right now that we would like to engage more 
in is on the Federal side with their water policy folks to work 
with us, and we have not quite completely identified who that 
might be. It would probably be somewhere in Interior and 
working with the water policy folks there, and engaging them 
more than we have in the past.
    Mrs. Chavez-DeRemer. To follow up with that, is anybody 
missing at the local level?
    Mr. Brunoe. I think we have a lot of folks in that local 
level. I think we are pretty good. I am looking out here in the 
crowd, and I actually know most of the folks that are in the 
audience here.
    Mrs. Chavez-DeRemer. Well, that is good to know for us when 
we go back that we know that we have the right people at the 
table.
    Dr. Backsen, you kind of mentioned, and it was talked 
about, the fuel load that is left on the ground once there is a 
wildfire, and we see that and we can't get in to remove that. I 
have spent a lot of time on the Conservative Climate Caucus 
Climate Solutions Fund talking about investment in resources 
for energy. And we talk about what wood product energy, and the 
biomass, and the biochar, and what we can do with that fuel 
load that is there, and how we can put it into the life cycle 
and not let it go to waste.
    So, I am glad you brought that up. It is not often talked 
about. We often talk about energy from all sectors, but we 
don't talk about it in the fuel load. And we can use that and 
have different ancillary businesses who are right here that we 
can start to focus on that. So, it is something that is always 
on my mind, how we can use that, but we have to be able to get 
in there. And that is one of the agencies that we will be 
focusing on and paying attention to. Let us have access to the 
roads, to the forests once those fires hit, so that we can 
remove that fuel load and continue down the road.
    I don't have any further questions. I am going to stop 
whining and, look at that, I am going to give you back 51 
seconds. I yield back my time, Mr. Chairman.
    Mr. Bentz. It is appreciated. Congresswoman Maloy, you are 
recognized for 5 minutes.
    Ms. Maloy. Thank you.
    Mr. Larkin, I didn't get to you during the last round, but 
I do have questions for you. You are here partially 
representing the local livestock industry, and I represent a 
lot of cattle ranchers and sheep producers who use Federal 
resources as an integral part of their small businesses and to 
provide a commodity that there is a demand for.
    I also have experience with habitat conservation plans and 
water scarcity plans and the collaboration that happens around 
those. We have threatened desert tortoises in my district, and 
specifically in the county where I was a deputy county 
attorney. And a lot of times when we are talking water or 
endangered species or other resources, agriculture gets 
overlooked in these conversations and doesn't always get the 
credit it deserves for having been part of the solutions for a 
couple hundred years in the West with getting more efficient 
and learning to use resources that are not usable for other 
things to produce food, feed, fiber.
    And right now a lot of the livestock industry that has been 
so important in shaping the West is struggling to survive. So, 
I have two questions for you, the same one I have asked 
everybody else, and then an additional one: What impediments do 
we need to remove at the Federal level to keep livestock 
production alive, and what Federal programs are working to help 
your industry?
    Mr. Larkin. That is a tough one because, as a rancher, 
producer, and stuff like that, I don't rely a whole lot on the 
Federal Government to make ends meet for me. So, I feel a lot 
of times we are alone in this battle. And I think that we 
talked earlier about the endangered species and things like 
that. We are an endangered species, and we need to be made 
known that without us, it is not going to happen.
    With the wildfires, they are burning up our grazing land, 
they are burning up our pastures. The devastation on the cattle 
inventory in Oregon alone, at one point during the summer there 
were 1,600 head of cattle lost because of the fires, and we 
don't see any of that relief. I think that there are programs 
in place for that, but we were raised that if something 
happens, you go get it taken care of and get back on the horse 
and do it yourself.
    Ms. Maloy. Yes.
    Mr. Larkin. So, I would like to be more supported, I guess, 
as a producer. I think all the farmers in this basin would like 
to be more supported, as well. But it is tough, and I think 
that a lot of people that make their living off the land that 
we have in here feel alone a lot of the time.
    Ms. Maloy. I can see that. And I think one of the reasons 
it is so important that we do things like this, and I 
appreciate Chairman Bentz bringing us here, is that I can see 
in my district, I can hear in your voice that you do feel 
alone. And representative government should be here, hearing 
from you and responding to you. So, thank you for being willing 
to sit here and talk to us about what you are up against.
    We have kind of gotten used to the fact that the Federal 
Government regulates the water we drink, the air we breathe, 
the food we eat, the cars we drive, the roads we drive on, and 
we need to wield that very lightly and make sure that we are 
actually serving the people we represent. So, thank you for 
being willing to share.
    And for all of you, that question stays open. If you wake 
up at 3 in the morning and think, oh, I should have said this, 
you can reach out to me. I have a website, I am easy to find.
    You look like you have something to say. Go ahead.
    Mr. DeBone. One thing that comes to mind is meat 
processing, protein processing. The state of Oregon has some 
USDA-certified processors for retail sale, but it hasn't scaled 
up. And obviously, this may not even be in your domain at this 
Committee, but national and international conglomerates doing 
meat processing, and Oregon would just be an opportunity to add 
to the capacity, either USDA processing, and I know the state 
of Oregon is working on a state processing also, so this is for 
retail sale because we have custom also.
    When I talk to farmers, they talk about that.
    Ms. Maloy. Thank you.
    And Mr. Brunoe, I am almost out of time, so this isn't 
going to be a question, I am just going to really quickly say I 
also believe that those who live closest to the systems and 
understand them best should have a voice in these 
conversations. And that is one of the things that I am always 
fighting for my constituents. So, thank you for sharing that 
perspective.
    I am out of time, but any of you who think of something you 
wish I would have asked can reach out when this hearing is 
over.
    And with that, I yield back.
    Mr. Bentz. Thank you. The Chair recognizes himself for 5 
minutes.
    Thomas, can you put up that slide? There it is. OK.
    [Laughter.]
    Mr. Bentz. There is a river. That is the Deschutes, filled 
with water and a whole bunch of people floating on it. I have 
driven by that I don't know how many times over the years, and 
marveled at the fact that it seems that that amount of water 
has been increasing. And, in fact, it has, thanks to a lot of 
sacrifice and work by a lot of people in this valley.
    Commissioner, in your opinion, or perhaps to your 
knowledge, how are those folks that are floating down the river 
paying for the stored water that they might be floating upon?
    And when I say this I don't want the answer to be, well, 
they are paying income tax, because ranchers and farmers are 
paying the same thing, OK? So, that doesn't absolve suddenly 
them as a responsibility because those who have water rights 
are actually paying O&M fees. Are those folks paying O&M fees? 
And if they are not, should they?
    Mr. DeBone. I don't know offhand that there is any direct 
benefit financially for all that recreational activity.
    One thing that comes to mind is the Wickiup Reservoir. 
Wickiup was built in, I think, the 1950s. And that Federal 
project, they put this whole system in place that allows the 
winter storage for that summertime flow. Deschutes River has 
historical average flow before that also, but yes, it is 
utilized to its maximum. Other than transient room tax fees or 
transportation or rental fees, there is no kind of feedback to 
the state or the Federal at that point.
    Mr. Bentz. Yes. What I am getting at is that there is 
definitely a cost that the ranchers and farmers are paying by 
virtue of not having water that you thought they had. That 
water is now, we are looking at it, it is right there, people 
are floating on it. Are those who are using the water now 
helping pay for the infrastructure it takes to provide it? That 
is really my question, because I guarantee you the O&M I pay as 
a patron of the Owyhee Irrigation District, I would be irked if 
suddenly the water was taken away and left in the stream and 
other people were using it without paying for it. So, that is 
what I am getting at. Should they?
    And if so, are you asking or suggesting that we up here do 
something about it?
    Well, no, actually, I would rather have you, at the county 
level, raise their fees.
    Mr. DeBone. Yes. Raise their fees.
    [Laughter.]
    Mr. Bentz. But feel free to answer it in 10 seconds. Go 
ahead.
    [Laughter.]
    Mr. DeBone. As I say, that is an amenity that is just 
natural here. People utilize it all the time. Diversions are 
happening just north of that, probably. So, it is amazing. That 
is a high flow area, and then the diversions to the irrigation 
districts are right after that also. So, it is an interesting 
topic. I don't have an answer right now.
    Mr. Bentz. Yes. No, that is an experienced answer. Let me 
move to Mr. Brunoe.
    Mr. Brunoe, I understand your concern when it comes to how 
the Federal level control comes into play. But we heard from 
the doctor that it is not working particularly well when it 
comes to U.S. Fish and Wildlife's failure to report what they 
are actually doing and, in fact, whether they are actually 
doing anything. That is our fear about Federal control from 
people who are removed from the situation and not paying 
attention, and not particularly accountable. That is why 
Federal control, as opposed to local control, is bad. Because 
local control means I can run down to Commissioner DeBone's 
office. I can yell at him. He is there, there he is. It is more 
difficult with Federal agencies.
    So, my question to you is, are you are you thinking, which 
I am going to guess that you are, that there has to be some 
balance? You can't be all Federal all the time. That is not 
going to work. There has to be some balance with local being 
involved and listen to. And that is, I think, missing from the 
current situation. What is your thought on that?
    Mr. Brunoe. Yes, place-based is important, that everybody 
be heard, and what each of our groups think that, from the 
local level, what needs to be done. And that is something I 
know in the collaborative we talk about, it is also something 
that the state advocates that place-based is part of their 
policy, and understanding that the locals have control of what 
they want to see happen with their resources.
    Mr. Bentz. Forgive me for cutting you off, we are down to a 
few seconds. I would just say I am extraordinarily familiar 
with place-based planning, and it is one thing to do the 
planning, it is quite another to be in control of it. So, to 
me, we probably need to do a little more work in that space.
    My last question, I am not sure which of you to ask it, but 
Abraham Lincoln said that all political change is driven by 
public opinion. Doctor, I am going to pick on you. What, in 
your opinion, is the most meaningful, weighty message that we 
could share with our constituents regarding needs of this 
basin?
    What is the thing that is going to grab their attention and 
say, hey, we need to be watching what is going on with water?
    Dr. Backsen. That is a tough one. But I think mainly the 
shortage that the farmers are having. Because like I said 
before, there is enough water there. It is a great plan, and it 
is great to put things locally, but I don't really think 
anything has been done from that. So, if we don't get stuff 
actually done and it has been 4 years in.
    And one question that Tony mentioned too is Wickiup 
Reservoir. Well, by the time that this HCP is going to end, 
there isn't going to be water at Wickiup Reservoir. It is 
usually used to store water through the winter and to provide 
that to Jefferson County in the summer and fall. That is going 
to also decimate the population of frogs up around Wickiup, and 
it is not going to be there any longer. So, we are increasingly 
going to have to let more water out of that reservoir to go 
into the river, and it is not going to be utilized by the 
farmers.
    Mr. Bentz. And we can see that coming.
    I want to thank the witnesses for their testimony and the 
Members for their questions.
    Members of the Committee may have some additional questions 
for witnesses, and we will ask you to respond to these in 
writing. Under Committee Rule 3, members of the Committee must 
submit questions to the Subcommittee Clerk by 5 p.m. Eastern 
Time on Friday, October 11.
    The hearing record will be held open for 10 business days 
for these responses.
    If there is no further business, without objection, the 
Subcommittee stands adjourned.

    [Whereupon, at 11:45 a.m., the Subcommittee was adjourned.]