[House Hearing, 118 Congress]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]
THE BORDER CRISIS: THE COST OF CHAOS
=======================================================================
HEARING
before the
SUBCOMMITTEE ON NATIONAL SECURITY,
THE BORDER, AND FOREIGN AFFAIRS
of the
COMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT
AND ACCOUNTABILITY
U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
ONE HUNDRED EIGHTEENTH CONGRESS
SECOND SESSION
__________
SEPTEMBER 25, 2024
__________
Serial No. 118-134
__________
Printed for the use of the Committee on Oversight and Accountability
[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Available on: govinfo.gov
oversight.house.gov or
docs.house.gov
_______
U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE
56-967 PDF WASHINGTON : 2024
COMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT AND ACCOUNTABILITY
JAMES COMER, Kentucky, Chairman
Jim Jordan, Ohio Jamie Raskin, Maryland, Ranking
Mike Turner, Ohio Minority Member
Paul Gosar, Arizona Eleanor Holmes Norton, District of
Virginia Foxx, North Carolina Columbia
Glenn Grothman, Wisconsin Stephen F. Lynch, Massachusetts
Michael Cloud, Texas Gerald E. Connolly, Virginia
Gary Palmer, Alabama Raja Krishnamoorthi, Illinois
Clay Higgins, Louisiana Ro Khanna, California
Pete Sessions, Texas Kweisi Mfume, Maryland
Andy Biggs, Arizona Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, New York
Nancy Mace, South Carolina Katie Porter, California
Jake LaTurner, Kansas Cori Bush, Missouri
Pat Fallon, Texas Shontel Brown, Ohio
Byron Donalds, Florida Melanie Stansbury, New Mexico
Scott Perry, Pennsylvania Robert Garcia, California
William Timmons, South Carolina Maxwell Frost, Florida
Tim Burchett, Tennessee Summer Lee, Pennsylvania
Marjorie Taylor Greene, Georgia Greg Casar, Texas
Lisa McClain, Michigan Jasmine Crockett, Texas
Lauren Boebert, Colorado Dan Goldman, New York
Russell Fry, South Carolina Jared Moskowitz, Florida
Anna Paulina Luna, Florida Rashida Tlaib, Michigan
Nick Langworthy, New York Ayanna Pressley, Massachesetts
Eric Burlison, Missouri
Mike Waltz, Florida
------
Mark Marin, Staff Director
Jessica Donlon, Deputy Staff Director and General Counsel
Sloan McDonagh, Counsel
Billy Grant, Professional Staff Member
Mallory Cogar, Deputy Director of Operations and Chief Clerk
Contact Number: 202-225-5074
Julie Tagen, Minority Staff Director
Contact Number: 202-225-5051
------
Subcommittee on National Security, the Border, and Foreign Affairs
Glenn Grothman, Wisconsin, Chairman
Paul Gosar, Arizona Robert Garcia, California, Ranking
Virginia Foxx, North Carolina Minority Member
Clay Higgins, Louisiana Stephen F. Lynch, Massachusetts
Pete Sessions, Texas Dan Goldman, New York
Andy Biggs, Arizona Jared Moskowitz, Florida
Nancy Mace, South Carolina Katie Porter, California
Jake LaTurner, Kansas Cori Bush, Missouri
Pat Fallon, Texas Maxwell Frost, Florida
Scott Perry, Pennsylvania Vacancy
Vacancy Vacancy
C O N T E N T S
----------
Page
Hearing held on September 25, 2024............................... 1
WITNESSES
----------
Dr. Steven Camarota, Director of Research, Center for Immigration
Studies
Oral Statement................................................... 5
Mr. Chris Clem, former Chief Patrol Agent (Yuma Sector - Retired
2022), U.S. Border Patrol
Oral Statement................................................... 7
Mr. Adam Isacson (Minority Witness), Director for Defense
Oversight, Washington Office on Latin America
Oral Statement................................................... 9
Written opening statements and statements for the witnesses are
available on the U.S. House of Representatives Document
Repository at: docs.house.gov.
INDEX OF DOCUMENTS
----------
* Article, The Marshall Project, ``Missing Crime Data'';
submitted by Rep. Biggs.
* Article, Fox News, ``Nearly 530,000 Migrants Paroled Under
Biden Programs''; submitted by Rep. Biggs.
* Document, INA 212(d) (5) (A), Parole Statute; submitted by
Biggs.
* Report, Homeland Security Committee, ``Abuse of CBP One
App''; submitted by Rep. Biggs.
* Report, CBP Statistical Data Southwest Land Border
Encounters; submitted by Rep. Biggs.
* Annual Report, SLED, ``Crime in South Carolina''; submitted
by Rep. Mace.
INDEX OF DOCUMENTS
----------
* Document, Charleston County Sheriff's Office Policy and
Procedures Manual; submitted by Rep. Mace.
* Detainer Acceptance Tracker, USCIS, Non-Cooperative
Institutions; submitted by Rep. Mace.
* ERO-LESA Statistical Tracking Unit, Charleston County, N.C.;
submitted by Rep. Mace.
* Letters, re: Sheriff Kristin Graziano; submitted by Rep.
Mace.
* Photo, Sheriff Graziano Terminating 287(g) Agreement;
submitted by Rep. Mace.
* Press Release, Charleston County Sheriff Kristin Graziano;
submitted by Rep. Mace.
* Twitter Header of Sheriff Kristin Graziano; submitted by Rep.
Mace.
* Article, U.S. News, ``Migrants Flooding NYC Justice System'';
submitted by Rep. Sessions.
* Article, New York Post, ``Migrants Accused of Crimes Still
Eligible for Shelters''; submitted by Rep. Sessions.
* Article, Fox News, ``Border Patrol apprehends 50,000 migrants
in August, down from the record 250,000 in December'';
submitted by Rep. Garcia.
* Article, NPR, ``Immigrants are Less Likely to Commit Crimes
Than U.S.-Born Americans, Studies Find''; submitted by Rep.
Garcia.
* Article, L.A. Times, ``Many Americans Believe Migrants Bring
Fentanyl Across the Border. That is Wrong and Dangerous'';
submitted by Rep. Garcia.
Documents are available at: docs.house.gov.
THE BORDER CRISIS: THE COST OF CHAOS
----------
Wednesday, September 25, 2024
U.S. House of Representatives
Committee on Oversight and Accountability
Subcommittee on National Security, the Border, and Foreign Affairs
Washington, D.C.
The Subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 2:10 p.m., in
room 2154, Rayburn House Office Building, Hon. Glenn Grothman
[Chairman of the Subcommittee] presiding.
Present: Representatives Grothman, Gosar, Foxx, Sessions,
Biggs, Mace, Garcia, and Porter.
Mr. Grothman. This hearing of the Subcommittee on National
Security, the Border, and Foreign Affairs will come to order.
Welcome, everyone.
Without objection, the Chair may declare a recess at any
time.
I recognize myself for the purpose of making an opening
statement.
The Biden-Harris Administration's open border policies have
led to the worst border crisis in American history, by a mile.
Millions of illegal immigrants have entered the United States
under the Biden-Harris Administration in a short period of
time, affecting every community across the country. This was
not the result of so-called root causes in Central America, as
Kamala Harris has said. Individuals from all over the world
have entered the U.S. under the Biden-Harris Administration
because they can. Obviously, we have the greatest country in
the history of the world right now, I guess you could say, and
it is not surprising that the whole world wouldn't try to come
here.
In the first 7 months of Fiscal Year 2024, nearly half of
the inadmissible aliens encountered at the Southwest border
were from countries other than Mexico, the Northern Triangle
countries, and Nicaragua. I should point out that by the end of
September, we already had the all-time record number of people
coming across the Southern border, so whatever we get across
when the numbers are released in September will only add to the
record.
This crisis did not result from lack of authority. The
Biden Administration has all the tools it needs to end this
crisis. For example, it can reinstate the Trump
Administration's policies that worked, such as Remain in Mexico
and detention rather than mass release of illegal immigrants.
They could continue to build the wall, which a Border Patrol
agent told us is a force multiplier in the mission to secure
the border. The Senate border bill, Vice President Harris vows
to sign into law, certainly would not have helped. It would
have codified the catch-and-release policies of the Biden-
Harris Administration that caused this crisis in the first
place and allowed up to 1.8 million illegal immigrants to enter
per year before temporarily closing parts of the border.
The Biden-Harris Administration's refusal to secure the
border and, instead, allow millions of poorly vetted aliens
from all over the world to be released is not without cost,
both human and economic. Illegal immigrants released into the
U.S. by the Biden-Harris Administration have gone on to commit
violent crimes against Americans. These murders, rapes,
burglaries, and violent assaults should never have happened.
Under the Biden Administration, foreign gangs are running
rampant in our communities. It is not just MS-13. According to
DHS, a new violent gang has spread from the communist regime in
Venezuela--Tren de Aragua--across the United States. This gang
has been described as MS-13 on steroids. When a mob of illegal
immigrants stormed the border in El Paso in March, over 100
were suspected members of the gang. The Biden-Harris
Administration has released 617,000 illegal immigrants with
known criminal backgrounds. That does not even include the
almost 2 million illegal aliens who evaded apprehension
entirely. We do not know where these got-aways are, what their
criminal histories are, or what their intentions are.
In addition to the real tragic costs of this border crisis,
there have been significant fiscal costs. Estimates show that
despite paying some taxes, illegal aliens are a net drain on
America. Experts estimate each illegal immigrant costs the
taxpayer roughly $68,000. They use more public services than
they contribute in taxes. The Biden-Harris Administration's
weak job growth numbers are further diluted by the fact that
the majority of those jobs have gone to foreign-born workers.
In the past 12 months, U.S.-born workers lost more than 1.3
million jobs where foreign born workers gained over 1.2
million. I will tell you, during the first 20 years of my
political career in Wisconsin, I would again and again have the
lobbyist for the carpenters' union in my office, begging us to
do something about all the illegal immigrants here using Social
Security cards, stealing the jobs, the good union jobs, my
friend would say, stealing the good union jobs from carpenters.
There is already a housing crisis in this country.
Estimates state that the U.S. is 4 million to 7 million housing
units short of where they should be. So, not only do illegal
immigrants compete for Americans for jobs, but also compete
with Americans for housing. The Biden-Harris Administration's
mass release of illegal immigrant in our country is not in the
interest of the American people. We cannot afford 4 more years
of a chaotic border.
I should point out that in America, we are not anti-
immigrant. Every year, about 850,000 new citizens are sworn
into our country. If you look at it, sometimes there is a
spike, but if you look at it in 3-year increments, there has
never been a time in our history in which we have had more
people sworn in as new immigrants. And what do we get for being
so gracious and allowing so many people in this country? We get
kicked in the face by having all other people coming here
anyway.
Well, there is my opening statement, and I will call upon
my Ranking Member, Mr. Garcia.
Mr. Garcia. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you to our
witnesses also for being here.
You know, I think that, obviously, all folks in Congress,
Republicans and Democrats, want a safe and secure border. I
think what we have are different approaches to how we treat
immigrants, a humane system, and ensuring we do not go back to
a process that was inhumane to people that are oftentimes
struggling and just seeking a better life. We do not want to go
back to family separation, to Muslim bans, to undermining our
asylum system. And we know we can achieve a comprehensive goal
that both has secure border, but also a plan for immigrants
that are here in this country and are working hard to
contribute to our economy and to our country.
Now, legal pathways to ensure an orderly and humane process
are important. I strongly support legal immigration because we
are a Nation of immigrants. Immigrants are some of the most
patriotic people I know in our country. They make our
communities stronger. They work hard. They build our country. I
am an immigrant. I came to this country as a young child. I
love America. I think it is the best country on Earth. When I
raised my right hand, it was the proudest day of my life, and I
am giving back to this country--I try to--every single day, and
the same is true for everyone in my family who are also
immigrants. But I also want to be clear why I think we are here
today. It is because some folks in Congress, and certainly
Donald Trump, think that bashing immigrants will win this
election.
Now, 2 weeks ago, during a bizarre debate performance, we
saw, of course, the former President repeat manufactured
conspiracies about immigrants, and in this case, Haitian
immigrants in Ohio. As we now remember his horrible quote,
``They are eating the dogs, the people that came in, they are
eating the cats, they are eating the pets of the people that
live here, and this is what is happening in our country, and it
is a shame.'' Now, we know that has been completely debunked.
The Republican Governor of Ohio, the Republican mayor of the
city, the city manager, and now even the woman that first made
the claim, who is also a Trump supporter in Springfield, all
have said that this was not true. Yet, the lie continues to be
repeated. J.D. Vance and other Members of Congress have
continued to amplify this xenophobic lie, and it is a shame.
And we know it gets worse. We know that Haitian immigrants in
Springfield also are overwhelmingly there on legal work
permits. They are actually there legally and were invited by
the state and the city to work, but that has not stopped J.D.
Vance and Donald Trump from threatening to revoke their status
and to allow a mass deportation agenda.
Now, Donald Trump's rhetoric has been dividing us and
stoking anti-immigrant hate, I believe, since he first came
down that escalator in 2015 to announce that he thought
Mexicans were rapists and murderers, and he says families like
mine and other immigrants are poisoning the blood of this
country. Those are the facts. Now, I am glad to say that the
American people, however, do not buy that. A CBS poll found
that only one-third of voters approve of Trump's claims about
immigrants, and almost 65 percent believe his recent claims are
false, which we know that they are. But here are some more
facts. Donald Trump is not interested in border security. He
killed the bipartisan border deal that was in front of the
Congress. And the Biden-Harris Administration has taken robust
action to secure the border, and we are now seeing the results
of that. And there is no immigrant crime wave, and I
respectfully disagree with the Chairman. In fact, our Nation is
safer today and has less crime today than it did when Donald
Trump left office. Those are the facts being reported by police
departments across the country.
And finally, I will reiterate I believe immigrants are
inherently part of this country. They are the backbone of our
country. They make our country safer, stronger and better. With
that, I yield back.
Mr. Grothman. I have got to respond a little bit.
Mr. Sessions. Mr. Chairman, I move to strike.
Mr. Grothman. I am sorry?
Mr. Sessions. I move to strike, to speak.
Mr. Grothman. OK. Go ahead.
Mr. Sessions. Mr. Chairman, I would be hopeful that this
would not be a Trump bash hating ordeal, but if the gentleman
is going to speak, he ought to speak factually correct. The
reason why the ``bipartisan'' Senate deal was not done was
because House Republicans, including myself and at least 30
other Texans, said we would not vote for it. It had absolutely
nothing to do with Donald Trump. And so, if the gentleman is
going to make this all about politics, he at least ought to
speak correctly instead of pushing falsehoods. Thank you very
much, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Grothman. Thank you. I just do want to comment on
something, and I am disappointed, that my good friend,
Congressman Garcia, would try to confuse the American public. I
have been down at the border 8 times. When I go down there, I
frequently talk to the people who are in charge of debriefing
or doing a health inspection on the new immigrants. They have
told me that it is common for women who are coming across the
border to be sexually assaulted. That ought to concern us all.
Instead, what has happened, when you try to bring up this idea
that we want to stop the sexual assaults of women coming across
the border, some Democrats say that this is a racial thing to
say.
Well, the border is, to a large extent, controlled by
ruthless gangs, and it is very sad that the women who come here
are being sexually assaulted. I do not know. Apparently, you
are not supposed to say it, or you are going to be accused of
racism. It has nothing to do with racism. It is pointing out,
including all the other problems that you have with this
massive border crossing, you are having women being assaulted
by the Mexican gangs south of the Rio Grande. And if you go
down there and talk to the people in charge of debriefing or
whatever you would say, the people coming across, they will
tell you that. So, it is not a racial statement. Donald Trump
cares about women and does not like to see these women who are
coming here sexually assaulted.
Mr. Garcia. Now, Mr. Chairman, thank you. First of all,
this is all a point of order. I mean, this is not a part of the
way the hearing procedure works, but I will just respond. I do
want to ask unanimous consent, since we are having this into
the record, a September 17, 2024, article from Fox News titled,
``Border Patrol apprehends 50,000 migrants in August, down from
the record 250,000 in December.''
And so, let us be also clear that it was the bipartisan
border deal, which I was discussing, that President Biden got
put in, that has actually dropped migrant crossings. Now we are
back to historic lows because of that, and so everything I said
was also factually correct. I think it is important to call out
people that are also demonizing immigrants, and it is important
that we stick to the facts. I was just purely responding to
that. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Grothman. Without objection.
Mr. Biggs. If we are just going to have a discussion, I
would like to weigh in.
Mr. Garcia. So, are we going to go back to regular order
or?
Mr. Grothman. I guess, we should go back to regular order.
We will go back to regular order now.
Mr. Biggs. That is too bad. I wanted to weigh in, you know,
as long as everybody is weighing in freestyle.
Mr. Grothman [continuing]. Andy Biggs has great things to
say. Well, your time to ask questions will be coming up soon.
I am pleased to introduce our witnesses today. Dr. Steven
Camarota, Director of Research for the Center for Immigration
Studies, leading researcher on immigration issues. His work has
been featured in national publications, including The New York
Times and Washington Post. Look at that. You got a guy from The
New York Times and Washington Post. Chris Clem served over 27
years in U.S. Border Patrol in multiple locations across the
border and at headquarters. He retired as the Chief Patrol
Agent in charge of the Yuma Sector in Arizona on December 31,
2022. And Adam Isacson, the Director for Defense Oversight at
the Washington Office on Latin America, which monitors U.S.
cooperation with Latin American security forces, as well as
other security trends. I want to thank you for being here to
testify today.
Pursuant to Committee Rule 9(g) the witnesses will please
stand and raise their right hand.
Do you solemnly swear or affirm that the testimony that you
are about to give is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing
but the truth, so help you God?
[A chorus of ayes.]
Mr. Grothman. Let the record show that the witnesses
answered in the affirmative. Thank you. You may take a seat.
Now, we will go to Mr. Camarota.
STATEMENT OF STEVEN CAMAROTA
DIRECTOR OF RESEARCH
CENTER FOR IMMIGRATION STUDIES
Dr. Camarota. First, I would like to thank the Subcommittee
for inviting me. As you say, my name is Steven Camarota. I am
Director of Research at the Center for Immigration Studies. My
testimony today will focus on the impact of illegal immigration
on housing, public coffers, and American workers, but let me
first turn to the unprecedented scale of recent illegal
immigration.
House Judiciary just last month reported that 5.6 million
illegal immigrants have been released into the country since
January 2021. These are all inadmissible aliens and under
various categories. There have also been 1.7 million got-aways
at the border in Fiscal Year 2021 to 2023. We do not know what
it is for 2024. These are all people observed entering
illegally but not stopped. Visa overstays also appear to be at
record levels, but we do not have all the data.
Now, all of these numbers represent new additions to the
illegal immigrant population, but of course mortality, out
migration, and legalizations each year offset these numbers to
some extent. Still, I conservatively estimate that the illegal
immigrant population has grown by 4 million since January 2021,
based on data collected by the Census Bureau. This is almost
certainly the fastest it has ever grown. All this illegal
immigration has consequences.
Turning first to housing, prior research shows that by
increasing demand, immigration drives up cost for housing. My
own analysis suggests that a 5-percentage-point increase in the
share of a community comprised of recent immigrants will cause
a 12-percent increase in what the average U.S.-born household
pays in rent. Bottom line, this influx has impacted housing.
Turning to the fiscal impact, using estimates developed by
the National Academy of Sciences, we calculate that the
lifetime fiscal drain, considering all the taxes an illegal
immigrant may pay and all the services and costs they would
create, is about $68,000 per illegal immigrant, or, if you
like, $68 billion for each 1 million illegal immigrants. This
drain is primarily due to the modest education levels of most
illegal immigrants. An estimated 79 percent have no education
beyond high school, which is about double the share of the U.S.
born. This results in low average incomes, tax payments, and
along with a significant amount of use of public services,
including welfare programs, which they often receive on behalf
of the U.S.-born children. But this drain is not because
illegal immigrants are lazy. It is not because they all came
for welfare. Most illegal immigrants, in fact, work. Rather it
simply reflects what happens when you add large numbers of less
educated people who have modest incomes to a modern economy
that spends a lot on social services.
Finally, let me touch on the labor market. First, the idea
that illegal immigrants only do jobs that Americans do not want
is false. Of the 474 occupations, as defined by the Department
of Commerce, only 6 are majority immigrant, and we can find
none that look to be majority illegal immigrant. There is good
evidence that immigration, by increasing the supply of workers,
reduces wages and employment for some American workers, though
distinguishing the impact between legal and illegal is always
challenging.
But perhaps the most important thing to think about is this
immigration is occurring in the context of the well-documented
long-term increase in the share of working-class U.S.-born men
not in the labor force, and they do not show up as unemployed
because they are not actively looking for work. Let me give you
one example. About 1 out of 9 U.S.-born men, 16 to 64, with no
education beyond high school, was not in the labor force in
1960. By 2000, it was 1 out of 4. Today, of these working age
men, it is about 1 out of 3. Job competition with illegal
immigrants is only part of the reason for this. However,
tolerating large-scale illegal immigration has allowed
employers and, frankly, policymakers to ignore this huge social
problem. After all, why care about all the working-age
Americans on the economic sidelines if we can just hire eager
immigrants? But the huge increase in American men not in the
labor force is linked to significant social problems, from drug
overdose deaths to crime to suicide and alcoholism. Reducing
illegal immigration would help force the country to deal with
this huge problem in our labor market.
Thank you.
Mr. Grothman. Mr. Clem?
STATEMENT OF CHRIS CLEM
FORMER CHIEF PATROL AGENT, YUMA SECTOR
U.S. BORDER PATROL
Mr. Clem. Good afternoon, Chairman, Members of the
Committee. My name is Chris Clem. I am a retired Chief Patrol
Agent of the U.S. Border Patrol. I began my career in 1995 in
Lordsburg, New Mexico, as a GS-5 Border Patrol agent trainee,
and retired 21 months ago as a Senior Executive Service Chief
Patrol Agent in Yuma, Arizona. Therefore, my responses and
testimony today will be based on the best recollection of my
experiences and observations over the last 28 years.
I spent most of my career along the Southwest border where
I was a canine handler, collateral duty intelligence officer,
firearms instructor, and I spent a few years in Washington, DC.
and New Orleans, Louisiana. I was a career government employee
who served under five Presidential administrations, starting
under Clinton and ending under Biden. I was not a political
appointee. I promoted through the ranks through competitive
process and commanded four Border Patrol stations across New
Mexico, Texas, and Arizona. I served as the Deputy Chief Patrol
Agent, New Orleans Sector, El Paso Sector, and the Acting Chief
in Big Bend Sector, before I was promoted to the Chief Patrol
Agent in Yuma, Arizona 2 years before I retired.
I spent time as an agent in remote locations as well as
urban environments. And I can tell you, if you have been to one
station, you have been to just one station. If you have been to
one sector, you have been to one sector. Each location is
different, its own set of unique circumstances, from terrain to
infrastructure to communities and to threats. However, the one
thing that is consistent across the spectrum, without border
security, our agents, our community, the migrants, and our
country, are vulnerable. While immigration and border security
are closely related, they are not mutually exclusive. However,
without proper border security in the form of physical
security, Border Patrol agents, strong policies and
consequences, the integrity of the immigration system is
compromised, and the founding principles surrounding the rule
of law can suffer.
My statement testimony today will be focused on border
security, to which I would be considered a subject matter
expert. Immigration, as mentioned, is related, but can only be
effective and efficient when the border is secured. This
Committee and Congress have access to all the available data,
and the staunch difference between the previous Administration
the current is gut wrenching and jaw dropping. I understand not
every threat to our great Nation will come directly across the
border, but why would we be willing to even risk it?
We know there are countless gaps and vulnerabilities
created along the border, specifically our Southern border. We
are on the heels of recent testimoneys from the FBI Director
that indicate threats are real. With hot spots around the world
and what has happened under the current Administration, there
are more than enough reasons to secure our border and put back
in place the plan as intended to include infrastructure,
technology, and policies. We need the wall installed and
completed where it makes sense, we need the technology
installed as intended, and we need to increase the number of
Border Patrol agents and border security personnel as requested
by senior field leaders. It is also my opinion that a border
security bill should be submitted as a standalone bill. This
bill should be based on the needs of Border Patrol field
chiefs, as required by their agents, to complete our security
mission.
In addition to the physical needs to secure our border, our
agents' fleet is in dire straits, with upwards of 50 percent
needing replacement. Our agents, when fully operational, spend
more than half their time in their vehicles doing their job. We
need to focus on funding on fleet and facilities for our
agents, intelligence, and administrative staff, not just
migrant processing. We must give our agents back the purpose of
mission, use funding appropriately to support them over the
inadmissible aliens.
Immigration and Customs Enforcement investigations and
detention agencies should also be included in this package. It
is when this bill is signed into law, and then, and only then,
should we have a separate immigration system overhaul. This
will allow border security solutions to stand on the principle
of American security and minimize the tradeoffs over outside
interests for immigration reforms. A standalone border bill
that addresses the obligation of the government to protect its
borders and people will not only make us safer, but will also
give a much-needed boost to the Border Patrol agents who have
had to be put in the middle of this nightmare with little
support and advocacy from this White House.
For years, while working for the U.S. Government as a U.S.
Border Patrol agent, and even more so today, I have said border
security is national security and public safety. There have
been far too many impacts to Americans and American cities by
this border crisis to mention. I accept that immigration is
emotional to so many, but we cannot conflate immigration with
border security. If we took a strong focus on securing our
border with real, proven solutions, we can make our country
stronger and safer while reducing the risk as well as the
impacts throughout the country, and then we can address the
immigration needs of our country. We should always strive to
remain that beacon of hope for those that are being persecuted
and tortured, but beyond that, we should not put our country at
risk. We can secure our border with commonsense and compassion
that keeps our country safe.
I want to thank you for the opportunity to speak today, and
while much of my testimony is similar to one earlier this year,
the fact is that fundamental needs of border security have
still not been met. My full statement has been submitted for
the record, and I look forward to your questions.
Mr. Grothman. OK. Now Mr. Isacson.
STATEMENT OF ADAM ISACSON
DIRECTOR FOR DEFENSE OVERSIGHT
WASHINGTON OFFICE ON LATIN AMERICA
Mr. Isacson. Chairman Grothman, Ranking Member Garcia,
thank you for inviting me to speak with you today. I last
testified in the House 10 months ago. Since then, the number of
migrants entering Border Patrol custody has dropped by more
than three-quarters. Fewer people came to the border in July
and August than in 9 different months of the Trump
Administration. As my written testimony explains, that is
because two crackdowns have brought the numbers down for now,
one in Mexico and one in the U.S. asylum system. Their effect
will not be permanent, but they do give us all a moment of
calm. Our hair is not on fire right now, we can have a chance
to discuss better solutions, and I am going to advise against
even more crackdowns.
Over and over again, regardless of who is President, when
there is a crackdown on migrants, the curve always shows a
dive, a bottoming out, and then a recovery. You can see a chart
in my written testimony of the past 10 years: crackdown,
recovery, crackdown, recovery. Even during the Trump
presidency, migration rose twice. You had sort of the caravan
and family asylum seeker period in 2018 and 2019, punctuated by
family separations in 2018, but that did not make that much of
a difference.
In mid-2019, Remain in Mexico did bring the numbers down,
but then that had leveled off by the fall, and into spring 2020
was leveled off, and then COVID came and closed the world's
borders. The second increase was the last 8 or 9 months of the
Trump Administration. Title 42 was in effect, but from April
2020 onward, every month was greater than the last. Border
Patrol apprehensions tripled from May to October, an absolute
hockey stick change.
Joe Biden inherited more than 70,000 encounters per month,
nearly a quarter more than there are right now. President Biden
kept Title 42 in place. His Administration expelled 2.5 million
people. By the way, Remain in Mexico, under Trump, 71,000
people, but people kept coming. One of the toughest crackdowns
ever did not stop them. Why? The answer has to do with the
futility of fighting against geography and fighting against the
law of supply and demand. My written testimony discusses that
more.
So, now while crackdowns do not work, I will be clear. I
also do not want to see huge numbers of people coming to the
U.S. Mexico border. Those people you see coming in to turn
themselves into Border Patrol, they are doing that because
applying for asylum requires you to be physically on U.S. soil.
In order to get to U.S. soil, most of these people, they go
through absolute hell. I am amazed by the desperation of moms I
have seen pushing strollers at the entrance to the Darien Gap,
the determination of people who just keep going, even after
being kidnapped and tortured by Mexican gangs and corrupt
police, but it is heartbreaking. This route encourages and
enriches bloodthirsty organized crime groups.
So, how do we break out of feudal crackdowns and also, at
the same time, break out of forcing people to come to the
border? First, with reforms to how people can come here. We
need to be able to make clear that a process exists, that there
is a line that people can get into, even though it may take a
while. Right now, there is virtually no process, no line. Just
because someone might not qualify for asylum does not mean that
they and their family do not have a lot to offer for our
communities and our economy.
Our immigration laws, though, have not fundamentally
changed in 34 years. I am talking 1990. I was 20 that year. I
am kind of a techie kind of guy. I did not even have an email
address in 1990. This is a very long time ago. Residency, work
permits, refugee admissions have changed very little since the
first Bush Administration. We need to modernize, and if we did,
we would have a lot less people making this dangerous journey
to access our asylum system at the border. Second, though, as
troubled as it is, we still have to defend that asylum system.
We should not put asylum out of reach like H.R. 2 would do.
That is for four good reasons. First, asylum exists for an
important historical reason. It is a legacy of World War II.
When countries turned away many people fleeing the Nazis and
Stalin and those people died, much of the world said never
again, including the United States. Reason two, a lot of people
really do qualify for asylum. In our immigration courts this
year, 48 percent of asylum cases ended with grants of asylum or
other protection. That is hundreds of thousands of lives saved
over the years.
Reason three, we have kept our asylum system so anemically
underfunded that it is overwhelmed. Wait times for a decision
are routinely several years, and then that overwhelm, that wait
time, it becomes its own draw, but this is fixable. It is an
administrative problem. How? Get processing off of Border
Patrol agents' to-do lists so that they can get back on the
line. About a thousand processing coordinators have been hired,
people who do not need a full course of academy training to do
paperwork. That is a start. Get case management in place so
that you can keep people in the system. And most of all, hire
judges and asylum officers so the caseloads go down, backlogs
go down, people get fair decisions in their cases--but the
cases happen so quickly, even with fairness, that people with
weaker cases do not try.
Reason four, as I said, our immigration laws are so
outdated that asylum is the only door open for many people. We
have to fix that. That is the reality.
So now, we have got this lull in migration at the border,
let us talk about new ways forward. I think that we can do that
perhaps once the election cycle ends. Thank you, and I look
forward to discussing this further.
Mr. Grothman. Thank you. I will start off with 5 minutes.
Mr. Camarota or Mr. Clem, I am under the impression that
every year, about 850,000 new people are sworn as American
citizens. Is that an indication to you that people cannot come
into this country if they wait under the current system?
Dr. Camarota. Right. Obviously, the number of naturalized
U.S. citizens is at a record high, both the number----
Mr. Grothman. A record high.
Dr. Camarota. Right.
Mr. Grothman. Ever higher, way higher than 1960, you know,
the golden years, or 1950. Not even close, right?
Dr. Camarota. Right. Yes, the U.S. legal immigration system
is the most generous in the world if you look at how many
people are admitted with a clear path to citizenship. So, in
that sense, we are extremely generous, and there are probably
somewhere around 40 million foreign born residents in the
United States here legally.
Mr. Grothman. OK. That is not nobody?
Dr. Camarota. No, nobody.
Mr. Grothman. President Biden and Vice President Harris
have allowed--this is for Mr. Camarota--have allowed in 7
million illegal immigrants into the U.S. since they first took
office. Does this abrupt introduction of 7 million illegals
strain public services and represent a fiscal challenge?
Dr. Camarota. Yes, and as I said, it is not because illegal
immigrants are lazy and do not want to work, or it is not
because they are all on welfare. It is that people in a modern
economy like U.S., and this is true of the native born--there
is no difference--who do not have a lot of education, and that
represents the vast majority of illegal immigrants, do not make
much money in this economy. They do not pay that much taxes,
even if they have work authorization or are on the books. There
are always exceptions, and they tend to use a lot of services,
and that is especially true once they have any U.S. born
children.
Mr. Grothman. OK. I will come back to something I said when
I led off here. When I was a Wisconsin legislator, the
carpenter union would again and again complain to me that they
felt people were coming and stealing the good union jobs from
other carpenters. Is this a problem today? Are they stealing
jobs from Americans?
Dr. Camarota. Well, the word ``stealing'' might be the----
Mr. Grothman. Are they taking jobs that otherwise would go
to law-abiding American?
Dr. Camarota. Right, and by increasing the supply of
workers, they certainly make employers happy, but that tends to
have a downward pressure on wages, making jobs less attractive.
And the real crisis in the U.S. labor market is all these
people of working age who are not looking for work. They are
not working and they are not looking for work.
Mr. Grothman. Right.
Mr. Camerota. And that is a 6-decade increase, and it is a
social disaster. If we want to solve that problem, we have to
curtail illegal immigration, let wages rise, and do a bunch of
other things.
Mr. Grothman. Yes, I am usually with the successful people
in my district. I like successful people, but I always wonder
how I should take it when they tell me if we allowed more
immigrants in this country, they would not have to give so many
raises. Is it right what my employers are telling us, that it
is a way to hold down wages if we let more people--immigrants--
in this country?
Dr. Camarota. Yes, and you can sometimes even find
employers who say things like that.
Mr. Grothman. Oh yes, they do.
Mr. Camerota. The former CEO of Walmart said something to
that effect.
Mr. Grothman. They do. They do not like to give people 16
or 17 bucks an hour.
Dr. Camarota. Or more.
Mr. Grothman. They pine for the days when they can give
$10,000 or $11,000. Thank God for Donald Trump that he was able
to raise those wages. Mr. Clem, you have 27 years of border
security as a Border Patrol agent and led the Yuma Sector as
Chief Patrol Agent. Vice President Harris, the border czar,
focused on the so-called root causes. Is it fair to say that
the catch and release policies of Biden-Harris Administration,
not issues of abroad and foreign countries, have been actual
and main cause of the border issue? And I think I will ask you
to look at this. You look at the number of people coming
across, say, in the 90s or the 80s or the 70s compared to
today, I do not think the world, collectively, is that much
more dangerous. What is driving this big increase now compared
to 10 or 20 years ago?
Mr. Clem. What I can tell you is that without consequences,
people are going to keep coming, and that is one of the big
challenges that we faced when I was Chief. It is what we saw
happening the latter part of my time in El Paso, when there is
no room to detain somebody who has entered illegally, who has
been placed in removal proceedings, and they are essentially
caught and released. That is what we call a pull factor.
So, specifically, in places like Yuma where I was Chief, we
did not have a lot of Central-American and Mexican nationals
coming across. We had people from all over the world, 116, 117
different countries. So, the smuggling network, the trafficking
network has got, you know, tentacles all around the world. And
so, people were coming here knowing that once they crossed,
they were likely not being detained beyond Border Patrol and
could be released in the United States for several years before
their initial hearing. So, to me, that is a pull factor that is
driving a lot of the people coming on our border today.
Mr. Grothman. You would know the answer to this, and I
mentioned it before. Are some of the women coming across that
Southern border sexually assaulted?
Mr. Clem. Absolutely.
Mr. Grothman. A lot of them?
Mr. Clem. A lot. It is hard to quantify that, but I will
tell you that most of the people that we talk to through our
intel debriefs and to people that run victim assistance
shelters will tell you that from day one, when they start their
journey in the hands of the smuggling networks from, whether it
is South America, Central America, or through Mexico, they are
exploited. They are sexually assaulted. Many of them are taking
birth control because they expect there to be some kind of
assault along the line.
Mr. Grothman. It is that horrible.
Mr. Clem. Yes.
Mr. Grothman. You are giving minor girls birth control
because they think it is almost predictable that they are going
to be sexually assaulted, right?
Mr. Clem. Yes. That is what we hear on debriefs, yes, sir.
Mr. Grothman. Unbelievable. Well, OK, now I will go on to
my partner in crime here, Mr. Garcia.
Mr. Garcia. Thank you, and I also agree, obviously, sexual
assault, whether it happens anywhere, and certainly the border,
I think is sick, and we should do everything we can to stop
that behavior.
I think a lot of things have been said at this hearing, and
I hear all the time about migration, what immigrants are doing,
why they are coming here, but I also want to clear up some of
the misinformation that we have already heard today. But also,
it is important to clear up the facts about some of the data
that is being used that I believe is actually incorrect, and I
think that the facts make it clear.
[Chart]
I do want to start with this chart, and, Mr. Isacson, you
presented some charts in your testimony. I want to use this one
as well. So, if we look at this chart, this is actually a chart
that is often used by my Republican colleagues. Donald Trump
uses this chart. It is pretty famous, and it shows the
migration spike here over time. But the truth is that this
chart is actually factually incorrect, and I think it is
important to note and to point out how incorrect it actually
is. First, it says that Trump left office in April 2020 right
here when migration was actually at its lowest point. We know
that is actually not true. Can you actually tell us what
happened in 2020 and why was there the huge decline at this
point in the chart?
Mr. Isacson. Sure. I mean, all of the world's borders
closed everywhere in March 2020.
Mr. Garcia. Because of the COVID pandemic.
Mr. Isacson. Exactly.
Mr. Garcia. Right. Except the Republicans, who have used
this chart over and over again, including in other committees,
keep saying that is when Trump left office. Now, when did Trump
actually leave office?
Mr. Isacson. January 2021.
Mr. Garcia. That is right. And January 2021 is actually
right here, so I will add an arrow to that.
Mr. Isacson. Ooo, arrows.
Mr. Garcia. So, if you look at this chart, from here to
here was all of during Donald Trump's presidency. So, the
increase in border crossings and the spike that you see
beginning to happen, actually happened when who was President?
Mr. Isacson. That is right. Things are already going up, a
lot of single adults, and then just after that, the world's
borders really start opening.
Mr. Garcia. That is right, and so obviously the border
crossings start increasing. Joe Biden then becomes President,
and then something else happens. It is missing in this chart.
We had the bipartisan border deal, and then, as we know, border
crossings actually begin to decrease. So, I am going to add
actually where we are today. This is actually where we are
today with these illegal border crossings. And so, I think it
is important that we actually stick to facts. This is incorrect
when Donald Trump actually left office, what was actually
happening in 2020, and the addition to this chart, which is
actually where border crossings are today, an issue solved by
the Biden-Harris Administration. Just to be very, very clear.
And, Mr. Isacson, I also want to note then, we have
discussed contributions of migrants, contributions of crime,
and I think it is important that we know, yes, Donald Trump
killed the bipartisan Border Patrol deal. We know that. And
there have also been attacks on immigrants that somehow there
is some sort of crime wave that immigrants are causing. I also
want to use this chart.
[Chart]
This chart, by the way, is compiled by data by the men and
women in our local police departments across America, so police
actually submit this information. Now, let me ask you, do you
agree the country is safer than it was in the 70s, 80s, and
90s?
Mr. Isacson. Yes, it absolutely is.
Mr. Garcia. Right, because this is actually our crime
trends and actual homicide rates in the U.S., and this is where
we actually are today. I do see a spike in crime actually in
2020, right over here. Who was President when that dramatic
spike happened?
Mr. Isacson. Donald Trump, but also COVID, yes.
Mr. Garcia. Right, but Donald Trump was President, exactly,
and Donald Trump, actually, murder rates surged by 30 percent
to the highest rate since the 90s, correct?
Mr. Isacson. That is right.
Mr. Garcia. Now, in 2021 when Joe Biden became President,
violent crime rates have now begun to decrease. So, I just want
to point out also that when we talk about migrants, we are
talking about what the impacts to the national crime rate is,
that crime has actually plummeted this year, and the Biden-
Harris Administration has actually made the country safer. And
so, we have invested in community policing, and, again, they
understand that immigrants can contribute to this country. But
just to connect back to the border, do you see any correlation
between the crime rate in this chart and trends in migration
over the last decades?
Mr. Isacson. No, I see no correlation at all.
Mr. Garcia. And is it safe to say that migration does not
bring crime to our country? Would you agree with that?
Mr. Isacson. No. The studies I have seen show that the
migrant population commits crime at a lower rate than the U.S.
one.
Mr. Garcia. And, in fact, also, when you look at studies of
migration, we know that migrants actually cause less crimes
than natural-born citizens. That is also correct. Is that also
true?
Mr. Isacson. Yes. I mean, of course, migrants do commit
some crimes, but the rate is lower.
Mr. Garcia. And if you commit a crime, you should be held
accountable to that crime, of course, and we know that is also
critically important. So, I just want to thank you because I
think facts matter. They are important. This is a Nation of
immigrants, and I think it is important to actually stick to
the data and the facts. And with that, I yield back.
Mr. Grothman. Mr. Sessions?
Mr. Sessions. Chairman, thank you very much. Mr. Isacson,
what does the city of New York think about their crime problem
and immigration?
Mr. Isacson. The city of New York has a homicide rate much
lower than Washington's, and it is actually going down.
Mr. Sessions. Is that what the mayor says? Is that what the
Governor says? Is that what the people say?
Mr. Isacson. The mayor made some warnings about a year ago
that have not turned out to be correct, about crime or disorder
in the city.
Mr. Sessions. So, I am mistaken that the Governor and the
mayor said that immigration was a problem and that they are
seeking desperate help from the Federal Government because they
have exceeded their ability to take care of not just the
immigrants, but the criminal problem that they have. So, I am
wrong?
Mr. Isacson. About 2 years ago, they had a lot of people
coming from Venezuela who did not have a lot of contacts and
people that they could stay with in the United States, and they
were at first a burden on the system. They are not anymore, and
their numbers are way down.
Mr. Sessions. So, thank you for your testimony. Mr. Clem,
Mr. Camarota, I have been told, `no, it is not a problem in New
York, not a problem in New York City.' I am wrong? Mr. Clem?
Mr. Clem. I would not say you are wrong because we have
seen the facts that we have had illegal immigrants that have
been caught and released and transferred to New York City
committing crimes. I would also say, you are not wrong because
the mayor of New York City sent his team down to places like
Del Rio, Texas, and Yuma, Arizona to see firsthand what was
happening back in 2022. They obviously knew something was going
on and were concerned for their constituents in their
respective cities. So yes, you are not wrong.
Dr. Camarota. There have certainly been high profile crimes
committed by illegal immigrants, and I have written on this
question of the background rate of crime rates for immigrants
and the U.S. born. It turns out the data is not very good, but
let me just say this. Keep in mind the policy--sanctuary
cities, as a matter of policy, it releases people who have been
arrested and are in jail. The one group of immigrants we know
has a high crime rate are people who get arrested and are in
jail, and when the ICE asks them to hold that person, they, as
a matter of policy, often release. That is what a sanctuary
city often does. That is extraordinarily foolish, even if you
think that illegal immigrants, on balance, have a somewhat
lower crime rate than other groups. Releasing people who get
arrested is very foolish when ICE is willing to take them, and
that is what these cities do.
Mr. Sessions. Well, I am willing to go before the House of
Representatives and on the Floor and admit that I am wrong,
that the mayor of New York City does not believe that, nor has
over the last 10 weeks. I am willing to go to the Floor of the
House of Representatives and admit that I was wrong, that the
Governor of New York encourages this, and it is not a problem
to the state of New York. That is not what I thought.
And so, Mr. Isacson, I will just apologize to you right
now. You have told me I am wrong. You have told me that the
state of New York and the city of New York is perfectly safe,
that the crime rates are lower.
Mr. Isacson. I did not say that----
Mr. Sessions. Yes, sir, you did because I gave you a chance
to and you told me it is lower today, and that the immigrants
have a very little part of that.
Mr. Isacson. I stand by that.
Mr. Sessions. And so, I am going to admit, I am sorry. I am
sorry that I have thought this, and I am sorry. So, I am going
to go and check the facts, but I am going to admit to you that
it is not what I thought, that I thought, just like in
Philadelphia and a lot of other places, that the crime in
Chicago, the crime as it relates to these Venezuelan gangs is a
real problem and criminal to police officers, to cities, to the
people of the city of Chicago. And I will tell you, I will
apologize to you right now that you have corrected me as a
professional witness giving testimony----
Mr. Isacson. Look at the most recent data.
Mr. Sessions [continuing]. that you raised your hand. I did
not raise my hand. You did and said you will tell the truth,
the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
Mr. Isacson. And I did.
Mr. Sessions. So, I know you did. I watched. So, I will
apologize right now to you. I am going to go back home and I am
going to double check the facts, and I appreciate the
gentleman.
Mr. Isacson. May I ask you to not pick anecdotal data and
look at the most recent numbers? Of course, you are going to
find evidence that migrants are committing crime. So, what is
the rate?
Mr. Sessions. Recent data. I ask about what the city of New
York, the mayor was saying. I asked what the Governor----
Mr. Isacson. In 2024, the second half of 2024 you will not
find as much on the record.
Mr. Sessions. Well, I did not say the second half. I did
not say----
Mr. Isacson. You said what he is saying, that is current,
presently, now.
Mr. Sessions. OK. Well, I am going to go check it.
Mr. Isacson. What he said in 2022 is something else.
Mr. Sessions. Sir, I am going to tell you, I apologize
because it is----
Mr. Isacson. Thank you. I accept.
Mr. Sessions [continuing]. not what I thought at all, and I
will be glad to go check that, and, Mr. Chairman, I want to
yield back my time.
Mr. Garcia. I would like to also request, Mr. Chair,
unanimous consent to enter two articles into the record. The
first is an article entitled, ``Immigrants are Less Likely to
Commit Crimes Than U.S.-Born Americans, Studies Find.'' This
was dated March 8, 2024, from NPR. The second is an op-ed
entitled, ``Many Americans Believe Migrants Bring Fentanyl
Across the Border. That is Wrong and Dangerous.'' That is from
the L.A. Times, dated February 12, 2024. Thank you.
Mr. Grothman. Without objection.
Mr. Grothman. Andy Biggs?
Mr. Biggs. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Let us get to this
thing, the Muslim ban that was mentioned. What countries were
involved in the Muslim ban? Anybody know? I know. Anybody want
to take guess? I will tell you who they were: Iran, Libya,
Somalia, Syria, Yemen, and North Korea. Is North Korea a Muslim
country? No, it is not. What do those countries, 6 of those 7
countries, have in common? Actually, they have in common that
four of them were on President Obama's DHS Terrorist Watch
List. The other four were considered terrorism safe havens.
Only 12 percent of Muslims around the world were impacted. And
besides that
--Mr. Clem knows this, Mr. Camerato knows this, I would
hope Mr. Isacson knows this--there were exceptions for every
one of those countries to come in, so there was not an absolute
ban. Another lie told by the left.
How about separation? This notion of separation, more than
325,000 unaccompanied children have been misplaced by this
Administration, admitted to. New York Times did a study. We had
the Director in, and she admitted that is a separation. You
know what these guys got criticized for, is about 4,000 people,
kids, that were separated, and they found them all, but a few.
These guys cannot find 325,000, but you are not going to hear
my colleagues say anything about it.
U.S. crime rate is not down, contrary to what you say, and
why do we know that? Does LAPD report? No. Does New York
report? No. Does Miami-Dade report? No. Do more than 6,000
police agencies obviate any reporting? That is the correct
thing. They do not report. So, when you say New York is down,
guess what, friend? They do not report to the FBI anymore. They
do not report anymore. They stopped reporting several years
ago. Why is it? They have told me it is too hard to report, and
so that is what you are relying on.
You know what the CBP said about Tren de Aragua? Tren de
Aragua is now moving into the Northeast, but crime is down for
you. That is good for you, my friend. CBP numbers, you said
they are way down. I am looking at CBP numbers right here,
looking at them right here, and you know what I see? Let us see
here, August 2023, 304,000. They are down, you are right,
almost 50 percent. They are down to 160,000, but you know what
is interesting about that? Jeh Johnson, Obama's DHS Secretary
said, `look, if you have more than 1,000 a day, you have got a
crisis.' Mr. Clem, is that a crisis? You have been there. How
many in the last year that you were Sector Chief? Fewer than
8,600 encounters in Yuma. Is that right?
Mr. Clem. In 2020, it was just approximately 8,800 arrests
in Yuma, in 2021, it went up to 114,000, and then in 2022, it
went up to 312,000. So, we went up over a thousand a day just
in Yuma alone.
Mr. Biggs. Right. So, if you are standing on top of Mount
Everest and you come down 1,000 feet, it may look like you have
really descended a whole lot, but you have not descended back
to normal, and we are nowhere near normal. And that is the lie,
the statistics that you guys are rallying around. It just blows
my ever-loving mind.
How about the so-called bipartisan piece of crap deal out
of the Senate? Mr. Clem, I read your statement, and what did
you say? You said something like this. You said, ``It failed to
address the border security requirements still needed by the
U.S. Border Patrol. If enacted, it would codify''--codify--``a
mandatory nationwide catch-and-release scheme for all
populations. Any time there are limited consequences of
detention or removal, even returning to Mexico, incentivizes
more people to make the dangerous journey.'' That dangerous
journey, that is what is inhumane, is it not?
Mr. Clem. That is correct. The journey is dangerous.
Mr. Biggs. Yes. And so, the bill that you referred to as a
better bill was H.R. 2, which has been languishing over in the
Senate for over a year now. That was a bipartisan bill. That
bill would have made significant changes along the border. Quit
lying. Let me tell you. How about the CBP One app. How is that
figured in? How is that counted in? Is that counted in your
encounters between ports of entry or at the port? No, it is not
counted in, and you know what those numbers are? And this will
take you right back up to 2023 levels: 530,000 migrants, OK,
that is the CHMD program. Eight hundred 13 thousand came in
under the CBP One. That takes you right back up to the 2023
levels, does that not, Mr. Clem, Mr. Camarota?
Yes, it does.
Mr. Clem. Yes, it does.
Dr. Camarota. Yes, if you add them together.
Mr. Biggs. Yes. And then when you throw in the Cuba, Haiti,
Nicaragua, Venezuela numbers, now you are back right at, maybe
even a little higher, than the 2023 numbers, and that is the
point that none of you all want to admit. You want to dance
around and you want to say, well, now they are legal. They have
got some kind of legal status. You know what they have got?
They have got an illegal parole status because parole under the
INA is meant to be a singular, particularized parole status,
but they have got categorical parole status here, and they know
that is wrong, and that is where they should have stopped.
Mr. Chairman, my time is way over, but there is so much
more to say here to rebut the crapola that we have heard here
today.
Mr. Grothman. The gentleman yields.
Mr. Garcia. Mr. Chair, since I know time went over, can I
just add one thing?
Mr. Biggs. If he is adding, I am going to add. You got time
before we started. I did not get that time.
Mr. Garcia. That is because I am the Ranking Member of the
committee.
Mr. Biggs. Yes, who cares if you are the Ranking Member?
You asked for a regular order, then do regular order.
Mr. Garcia. Thank you, sir. As Ranking Member, since he had
more time, I just----
Mr. Grothman. You may, please.
Mr. Garcia. I just want to clarify that the gentleman is
actually incorrect. Both the states of New York and
California--the city of New York City, the city of Los
Angeles--do send their reports and their crime reports, and
they are included in the data. And so, I just think that the
facts are important, and I will not correct----
Mr. Biggs. Yes, they are, and so I demand time to respond
to that.
Mr. Garcia. I will not correct every misstatement, but I do
want to correct those. Thank you.
Mr. Biggs. I want that time. I want that time, Mr.
Chairman, because if you look at the Marshall Project, the
Marshall Project said, which is not a conservative group, they
will tell you, if you look at the FBI data, more than 52
percent of agencies do not report all of their data to FBI, and
that is the facts. Facts are stubborn thing and----
Mr. Garcia. And last, like, having served as mayor for 8
years and had a police force of 600 police officers, did a
great job. The city of Los Angeles, the city of New York, I can
tell you, guarantee you, they report their data. Thank you.
Mr. Grothman. Nancy Mace?
Ms. Mace. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. In talking about
extraordinarily foolish--I know that was said earlier by one of
our witnesses--it is not just cities. It is counties, too. I
have been nuking Charleston County sheriff over the last 24
hours over her lies about the illegals that are in South
Carolina, her lies about releasing them into our state and that
sort of thing. And when you are talking about New York, Mr.
Biggs, if you talk to an NYPD officer, they will tell you they
are not charging these illegals with crimes. And then when they
do, they are released. They are not given a bail or bond when
they go out. And so, the left, it is just all one big lie, and
it is not right to the American people.
And the statistic that crime is down for migrants, every
illegal who is here, illegally entered our country illegally
they literally committed a crime on the way in. And so, they
are all 100 percent guilty of committing a crime. Mr. Chairman,
I brought a folder today because I am going to enter in some
documents into the congressional record this afternoon.
So, I want to thank our witnesses for being here today. I
am going to focus my time on the human cost of sanctuary
policies from local officials, including Charleston County
sanctuary sheriff, Kristin Graziano, and I hope she is watching
today. If she is watching, I hope you have a Number 2 pencil
and you take notes because this is how I do my job. Charleston
County, actually, my district, used to be a model for
cooperation between ICE and local law enforcement. It is no
more. Charleston County had a 287(g) cooperation agreement in
place with ICE, acted as an over 72-hour detention facility for
aliens apprehended by ICE, and worked together to enforce our
Nation's laws and keep our community safe. No more because of
sanctuary sheriff, Kristin Graziano. Unfortunately, in early
2021, the new sheriff of Charleston County, sanctuary sheriff,
Kristin Graziano, began a systematic effort to dismantle
immigration enforcement in Charleston County. Sheriff Graziano,
on her first day in office, terminated Charleston County's
287(g) cooperation agreement with ICE. She announced this in
front of a taco shop. I do not know why.
So, Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask unanimous consent to
enter this picture of Sheriff Graziano terminating her 287(g)
agreement in front of El Pincho Taco into the record.
Mr. Grothman. Without objection.
Ms. Mace. Thank you. I also would like to request unanimous
consent to enter this photo. It is sanctuary sheriff, Kristin
Graziano's, Twitter header. Here she is with wide open borders
czar, Kamala Harris. Here she is with Joe Biden, who often
loved to walk away from the podium and not take questions from
press, just like sanctuary sheriff, Kristin Graziano did today
at her own press conference. I am not sure who did it better,
her or Joe Biden.
Mr. Chairman, I would like to enter this into record.
Mr. Grothman. Without objection.
Ms. Mace. Thank you. Sheriff Graziano refuses to notify ICE
when a criminal illegal alien is in custody and refuses to
provide adequate hold time for ICE to assume custody.
I am going to request unanimous consent, Mr. Chairman, to
enter a statement yesterday where she says, ``Our policy
clearly states, on our public website, we only hold residents
for ICE if they have a I-247, a detainer and Immigration Order
signed by an Immigration Judge,'' as per her office policy. I
would like to enter her statement into the record, Mr.
Chairman.
Mr. Grothman. Without objection.
Ms. Mace. In that same vein, I am going to enter her own
office policy that says that she can and will release criminal
illegal aliens into South Carolina. This is her policy she
cites as the reason she does this. Did you know she wrote and
signed off on her own department policy? It does not get any
dumber than this, literally is one of the dumbest things I have
ever seen in South Carolina history. Her department has been
designated as a noncooperative by ICE.
Mr. Chairman, I would like to enter this list of
noncooperative institutions into the congressional record, sir.
Mr. Grothman. Without objection.
Ms. Mace. All right. I am running out of time. I am
requesting unanimous consent to enter this document from ICE--
she called me a liar today--where she has released over 50
illegal immigrants into South Carolina, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Grothman. Without objection.
Ms. Mace. I would like to request unanimous consent to
enter all my letters to Sheriff Graziano and ICE into the
congressional record, over her behavior.
Mr. Grothman. Without objection.
Ms. Mace. And last, she called me a liar today, and she
also said that violent crime has gone down in Charleston
County. Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask for unanimous consent
to enter the SLED, State Law Enforcement Division's crime in
South Carolina annual report where it shows violent crime is
up. Murders, aggravated assaults, stolen vehicles, et cetera,
it is up. It is not down. It is a lie. Mr. Chairman?
Mr. Grothman. Without objection.
Ms. Mace. Thank you, and I yield back.
Mr. Grothman. Paul Gosar?
Mr. Gosar. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. First of all, Chief
Clem, how are you doing? Jonathan Lyon said to say hi to you.
Mr. Clem. Good afternoon, sir. Good to see you.
Mr. Gosar. You know, you have experienced more than
probably anybody in this room, you know, down in that Yuma
sector. I have a small part of Yuma, but it has been overrun. I
want you to talk about what was just found on our border, these
eight IEDs and the four rocket-propelled grenades.
Mr. Clem. Well, I do not have that much fidelity anymore
because I am retired, but I can tell you what has been open
source, and that is a place near La Nariz, which is outside of
Sonoyta, Mexico, I would say about 40 miles southeast of
Lukeville, Arizona. They are near Ajo, Arizona. And my
understanding, it was less than a 10th of a mile from the
border, there were several IEDs and RPGs. More than likely,
based on my experience, that is for cartel infighting, taking
over land, using it to, you know, emboldening their operations
over there, but being that close to the U.S border, it is a
threat. It is a threat to everybody in the region. It does not
take much for somebody to turn an RPG or put an IED right there
at the border and injure any of our CBP personnel or Border
Patrol agents, so something like that, that close to our
border, is a concern. That is why I say it is more than
immigration. It is border security is national security.
Mr. Gosar. All right. You know, we have not had anybody--
and I am being facetious here--now we have not had anybody from
the Middle East at all come across those borders, have we?
Mr. Clem. We have had them from all over the country, all
over the world, excuse me, 177 different countries, I believe,
in the last few years. Yuma was no exception. We had plenty of
people, 116, 117 different countries, during the 2 years I was
chief there.
Mr. Gosar. When you were Chief, how many people were on the
Terrorist Watch List that came through?
Mr. Clem. I actually led the Nation in 2022 with 40 people
that were apprehended that came across the Terrorist Screening
Data base.
Mr. Gosar. And those are the ones you just knew about,
right?
Mr. Clem. Those are the ones we just knew about. Yes, sir.
Mr. Gosar. The got-aways do not count?
Mr. Clem. We have no idea who or what their intentions are.
Mr. Gosar. What is your general feeling about cells in this
country?
Mr. Clem. Well, I think we have fooled ourselves if we
think that is not occurring, right? I think anybody with any
law enforcement/military background understands that the enemy
is going to amass its army any way, shape it can. The fact that
we have had close to 1.8 million or 1.9 million got-aways with
no idea who they are, and I am sure a small percentage of them,
or a majority of them, are not on a watch list, but it does not
take many. But, you know, fact of the matter is, is we have got
concerns because we have got so many people from all around the
world that have snuck in this country legally that we do not
know about.
Mr. Gosar. Now, you know, Yuma is kind of out there, and
they are all by themselves out there, right? And so, the locals
are really doing the lowman's share of having to deal with
these people, right?
Mr. Clem. That is correct.
Mr. Gosar. Can you talk a little bit more about your
reactions or relationship with the sheriff there, Wilmot?
Mr. Clem. I am very fortunate. I have a very good
relationship with all the local leadership--the mayor, the
sheriff, the county supervisors. We had to pull together as a
community to handle the influx. We went, again, from, I have
mentioned earlier, in 2020 just over 8,800 arrests to over
110,000, 114,000 arrests, up to 300,000 arrests, 312,000
arrests in 2022. That took an entire toll on everything from
the EMS services, the medical services, the food bank, law
enforcement. We had to come together and build a community team
using nongovernment organizations to help so we are not
releasing people in the street in places like Yuma, Arizona,
when it is 120 degrees in the summertime. And I was just there
last week, I met with some of the same people, and there are
still facilities, like the hospital, that still have not
recovered over $25 million, I think, in medical funds, and even
the food bank is still having a hard time replenishing some of
the stuff they had that they use to help with the migrant
influx there.
Mr. Gosar. And that food bank was one of the biggest in the
state, right?
Mr. Clem. It was.
Mr. Gosar. It is huge.
Mr. Clem. Because of the migrant population, and the
agriculture in Yuma, they had a lot of support, and for that to
get depleted was pretty impactful.
Mr. Gosar. And if I am not wrong, the hospital there, if
you were a citizen who is pregnant, you could not get a labor
or an OB/GYN to see you because they were all filled. You had
to go all the way to Phoenix, which is a pretty hefty drive,
right?
Mr. Clem. The CEO has made that statement of the hospital
that because of a lot of the influx, people coming directly to
the hospital that were in need of OB/GYN and labor and
delivery, they had to reschedule people that were planning to
come in here for births, cesarean sections. Those things had to
be canceled or rescheduled because of that, so, yes, that is a
factual statement.
Mr. Gosar. You know, I thank you very much. You know, I
thank you for your service. Appreciate you, and like I said, I
said hi for Jonathan Lyons. Thank you very much. I yield back.
Mr. Grothman. In closing, I want to thank our witnesses
once again for their testimony.
Mr. Biggs. Mr. Chairman, I have some documents to submit
for the record.
Mr. Grothman. Oh, yes. Mr. Biggs.
Mr. Biggs. Thank you. For the record, I submit a document
from The Marshall Project, entitled, ``Four Reasons We Should
Worry About Missing Crime Data''; submit a report from the
Homeland Security Committee called, ``New Documents Obtained by
Homeland Majority Detail Shocking Abuse of CBP One App''; a
report from U.S. CBP and a Fox article referencing that report,
``Nearly 530,000 Migrants Came to the U.S. 'Legally' and
Paroled into U.S. Under Controversial Biden Programs,'' and
which also talks about the CHMD program, as well as CBP One
program. I also include into the record the INA 212(d)(5)(A),
which is the parole statute, which defines what parole is
supposed to be. And then, also, I accessed this morning the CBP
statistical data with regard to encounters on the Southwest
land border alone.
Mr. Grothman. Without objection.
Mr. Sessions. Mr. Chairman?
Mr. Grothman. Yes.
Mr. Sessions. I would like to ask unanimous consent to
enter into the record some information which I had used to
prepare myself for today that obviously I am told I am wrong.
From the U.S. News: ``Migrants Flooding New York City's Justice
System, Making Up 75 Percent of Arrests in Midtown, As Pathetic
Sanctuary Laws Handcuff Cops.'' Second would be in The Metro
[sic], ``Migrants Accused of Crimes Still Eligible for
Taxpayer-Funded New York City Shelters, the Mayor of New York
City Admits After Expose.'' Mr. Chairman, I would ask these be
included in the record of today's hearing.
Mr. Grothman. And without objection.
OK. My Ranking Member?
Mr. Garcia. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I just want to thank
our witnesses again. And as a reminder, Republicans and
Democrats both want a safe and secure border. Clearly, we had
an opportunity to pass the bipartisan Border Security Act. It
was not able to happen. Of course, we know that President Biden
has taken executive action on that. Also, I just want to point
out, it is important, I think, when we talk about migrants and
we talk about crime, that we actually use facts, statistics,
and crime data reported by police departments across the
country. And, also, once again, I want to thank our witnesses
for being here and wish everyone a good break. With that I
yield back.
Mr. Grothman. Thank you. Thank you, guys, for coming on
over and testifying here. What I can add, there is no question
that we are at, in my mind, record numbers of people coming
across the border for the current year. And you got to remember
two new things: the CBP One app and the Cuba, Haiti, Nicaragua,
Venezuela program, which were not around 2 years ago, but now
each are taking on 125, one about 40,000, additional people
coming here every month.
So, we are in a crisis never before. To say that this is
like anything we have seen under President Trump is not true.
And we have numbers on family units released, total encounters
all going up, up over time. I can tell you, in my area, which
is not a particularly liberal area, if I ask law enforcement
how many people arrested who are here illegally, how many
people in the jail are here illegally, how many people in a
prison are here illegally--it amazes me what we do not know.
OK. I do not think those numbers are out here because they are
not out here in Wisconsin. They are sure not out here in
Arizona or Texas or somewhere.
This is obviously going to permanently change America. We
have not got into ideas of people coming here. I mean, we have
to, over time, have people who understand our Constitution,
believe in our values. As said before, we are right now among
record numbers of people who are being sworn in, legally
naturalized, way, way more than in the 60s or 70s or 50s, not
even in the same ballpark. And nevertheless, we let this
fiction sit out here that it is, you know, so difficult to come
here.
In any event, it is, to me, obvious anecdotally and from
talking to my local law enforcement, that people who are here
illegally are committing crimes and serious crimes--rapes, that
sort of thing--which is horrific. It is obviously true that
when you bring another 5 million or 10 million people in the
country and are not building more housing, you are going to
drive up the cost of the housing that you have. I can tell you,
from my district, even in Wisconsin, so far from the Southern
border, some school districts have had dramatic increase in the
number of people there, which obviously is very expensive, and
it is more expensive than any other child because you are
dealing with the additional cost connected with people not
being able to speak English, but that is going up as well.
So, I appreciate you being here. I hope within the next few
months, we are able to deal with this crisis and realize that
you cannot be taking in 1.5 million or 2 million new people, 3
million new people every year, without fundamentally changing
America. We have something so special here, and I feel like we
are letting it slip away. So, thank you.
With that, and without objection, all Members will have 5
legislative days to submit materials and additional written
questions for the witnesses, which will be forwarded to the
witnesses.
Mr. Grothman. If there is no further business, without
objection, the Subcommittee stands adjourned.
[Whereupon, at 3:19 p.m., the Subcommittee was adjourned.]
[all]