[House Hearing, 118 Congress]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]
THE CONSEQUENCES OF SOFT-ON-CRIME POLICIES
=======================================================================
HEARING
BEFORE THE
SUBCOMMITTEE ON CRIME AND FEDERAL GOVERNMENT SURVEILLANCE
OF THE
COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY
U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
ONE HUNDRED EIGHTEENTH CONGRESS
SECOND SESSION
__________
WEDNESDAY, SEPTEMBER 11, 2024
__________
Serial No. 118-97
__________
Printed for the use of the Committee on the Judiciary
[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Available via: http://judiciary.house.gov
_______
U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE
56-839 WASHINGTON : 2024
COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY
JIM JORDAN, Ohio, Chair
DARRELL ISSA, California JERROLD NADLER, New York, Ranking
MATT GAETZ, Florida Member
ANDY BIGGS, Arizona ZOE LOFGREN, California
TOM McCLINTOCK, California STEVE COHEN, Tennessee
TOM TIFFANY, Wisconsin HENRY C. ``HANK'' JOHNSON, Jr.,
THOMAS MASSIE, Kentucky Georgia
CHIP ROY, Texas ADAM SCHIFF, California
DAN BISHOP, North Carolina ERIC SWALWELL, California
VICTORIA SPARTZ, Indiana TED LIEU, California
SCOTT FITZGERALD, Wisconsin PRAMILA JAYAPAL, Washington
CLIFF BENTZ, Oregon J. LUIS CORREA, California
BEN CLINE, Virginia MARY GAY SCANLON, Pennsylvania
KELLY ARMSTRONG, North Dakota JOE NEGUSE, Colorado
LANCE GOODEN, Texas LUCY McBATH, Georgia
JEFF VAN DREW, New Jersey MADELEINE DEAN, Pennsylvania
TROY NEHLS, Texas VERONICA ESCOBAR, Texas
BARRY MOORE, Alabama DEBORAH ROSS, North Carolina
KEVIN KILEY, California CORI BUSH, Missouri
HARRIET HAGEMAN, Wyoming GLENN IVEY, Maryland
NATHANIEL MORAN, Texas BECCA BALINT, Vermont
LAUREL LEE, Florida Vacancy
WESLEY HUNT, Texas
RUSSELL FRY, South Carolina
MICHAEL A. RULLI, Ohio
------
SUBCOMMITTEE ON CRIME AND FEDERAL
GOVERNMENT SURVEILLANCE
ANDY BIGGS, Arizona, Chair
MATT GAETZ, Florida Vacancy, Ranking Member
TOM TIFFANY, Wisconsin LUCY McBATH, Georgia
TROY NEHLS, Texas MADELEINE DEAN, Pennsylvania
BARRY MOORE, Alabama CORI BUSH, Missouri
KEVIN KILEY, California STEVE COHEN, Tennessee
LAUREL LEE, Florida HENRY C. ``HANK'' JOHNSON, Jr.,
RUSSELL FRY, South Carolina Georgia
CHRISTOPHER HIXON, Majority Staff Director
AARON HILLER, Minority Staff Director & Chief of Staff
C O N T E N T S
----------
Wednesday, September 11, 2024
OPENING STATEMENTS
Page
The Honorable Andy Biggs, Chair of the Subcommittee on Crime and
Federal Government Surveillance from the State of Arizona...... 1
The Honorable Lucy McBath, a Member of the Subcommittee on Crime
and Federal Government Surveillance from the State of Georgia.. 3
The Honorable Jim Jordan, Chair of the Committee on the Judiciary
from the State of Ohio......................................... 5
The Honorable Jerrold Nadler, Ranking Member of the Committee on
the Judiciary from the State of New York....................... 5
WITNESSES
Brian Ingram, Chief Executive Officer and Chef, Purpose
Restaurants
Oral Testimony................................................. 7
Prepared Testimony............................................. 9
Amanda Kiefer, Victim of Crime, San Francisco, California
Oral Testimony................................................. 11
Prepared Testimony............................................. 12
Jim Kessler, Executive Vice President for Policy, Third Way
Oral Testimony................................................. 14
Prepared Testimony............................................. 16
Jim Schultz, President, Minnesota Private Business Council
Oral Testimony................................................. 18
Prepared Testimony............................................. 20
LETTERS, STATEMENTS, ETC. SUBMITTED FOR THE HEARING
All materials submitted for the record by the Subcommittee on
Crime and Federal Government Surveillance are listed below..... 37
Materials submitted by Henry C. ``Hank'' Johnson, Jr., a Member
of the Subcommittee on Crime and Federal Government
Surveillance from the State of Georgia, for the record
An article entitled, ``Audio shows Trump praised Waltz in
2020 for response to unrest over George Floyd's murder,''
Aug. 8, 2024, AP News
A report entitled, ``Bail Reform and Public Safety: Evidence
from 33 Cities,'' Aug. 15, 2024, Brennan Center for
Justice, New York University School of Law
A report entitled, ``Bail Reform and Public Safety: Evidence
from 33 Cities: Methodological Supplement,'' Sept. 11,
2024, Brennan Center for Justice, New York University
School of Law
A letter to the Honorable Jim Jordan, Chair of the Committee
on the Judiciary from the State of Ohio, and the
Honorable Jerrold Nadler, Ranking Member of the Committee
on the Judiciary from the State of New York, from Kara
Gotsch, Executive Director, Sentencing Project, Sept. 10,
2024
A report entitled, ``Incarceration & Crime: A Weak
Relationship,'' Jun. 2024, The Sentencing Project
An article entitled, ``FBI's latest data shows `historic'
drop in crime: Garland,'' Jun. 10, 2024, ABC News
An article entitled, ``Joe Biden is correct that violent
crime is near a 50-year low,'' May 28, 2024, PolitiFact
Materials submitted by the Honorable Andy Biggs, Chair of the
Subcommittee on Crime and Federal Government Surveillance from
the State of Arizona, for the record
An article entitled, ``Four Reasons We Should Worry About
Missing Crime Data,'' Jul. 13, 2024, The Marshall Project
A report entitled, ``Blue City Murder Problem,'' Nov. 4,
2022, The Heritage Foundation
An Opinion entitled ``Violent Crime Creating Dystopian Hell
Despite Biden's Claim America Is Safer,'' Sept. 6, 2024,
The Daily Caller
THE CONSEQUENCES OF SOFT-ON-CRIME POLICIES
----------
Wednesday, September 11, 2024
House of Representatives
Subcommittee on Crime and Federal Government Surveillance
Committee on the Judiciary
Washington, DC
The Subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 10:04 a.m., in
Room 2141, Rayburn House Office Building, the Hon. Andy Biggs
[Chair of the Subcommittee] presiding.
Members present: Representatives Biggs, Jordan, Gaetz,
Tiffany, Nehls, Kiley, McBath, Nadler, and Johnson.
Mr. Biggs. The Subcommittee will come to order. Without
objection, the Chair is authorized to declare a recess at any
time. Welcome, we welcome our witnesses, the public and
members, and we appreciate everyone being here today on today's
hearing on the Consequences of Soft-on-Crime Policies.
I now recognize the gentleman from Wisconsin, Mr. Tiffany,
to lead us in the Pledge of Allegiance and following the Pledge
of Allegiance, if you would remain standing for a moment of
silence for the 9/11 victims.
All. I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States
of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one
Nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for
all.
[Moment of silence.]
Mr. Biggs. Thank you. I will now recognize myself for an
opening statement. Again, we welcome you to this hearing on the
consequences on soft-on-crime policies. Over the course of this
Congress, our oversight has included hearings in Democrat-run
jurisdictions like Manhattan, Chicago, Washington, DC, and
Philadelphia. Revealed in those hearings was the dangers of the
left's agenda that provides leniency toward criminals.
The witnesses at these hearings have told us the horrific
and tragic stories of how soft-on-crime policies have hurt them
and their families. Prosecutors who refuse to put criminals in
jail routinely have downgraded felonies to misdemeanors and
declined to prosecute entire categories of crimes that has
resulted in increased criminality and violence.
Meanwhile, leftist policymakers are passing bill reform
laws that make it easier for criminals to remain on the streets
and harder for police officers for protect their communities.
This hearing is a continuation of that oversight. If Democrats
are successful in their policy goals, the left-leaning criminal
justice policies of Manhattan, Chicago, Washington, DC,
Philadelphia, California, and Minnesota will become common
throughout the country and will actually have impact on Federal
imposition of criminal codes.
I hope these hearings serve as a wake-up call to Americans
to demand that their elected leadership abandon these policies
that have made their communities less safe, and I hope it also
reminds Congress of our requirement regarding Federal law.
Violent crime in Minnesota remains significantly elevated
due to the lingering effects of the Summer 2020 riots in
addition to the prosecution's refusal to hold criminals
accountable. Following the rise in violence that occurred
during the aftermath of the death of George Floyd, Minnesota's
Twin Cities, Minneapolis and St. Paul, faced unprecedented
damage and destruction and crime remains concentrated in those
cities today.
During the Summer 2020, the riots of the Summer 2020, 1,500
businesses in the Twin Cities were vandalized, looted, or
damaged with at least 67 of those buildings destroyed by fire.
Additionally, the Minneapolis City Council attempted to
disband, but ultimately defunded the police department by $8
million.
Today, the metropolitan area still struggles with police
recruitment and the aftermath of the riots where enforcements
have had to cut back on proactive policing. Additionally, the
two District Attorneys for the Twin Cities both practice and
implement radical, soft-on-crime policies that enable dangerous
criminals and exacerbate crime.
We will hear from two witnesses from Minnesota today. Forty
years ago, a near decade long crime wave started in California.
In the eight-year period between 1985-1993, violent crime
across all categories increased 66 percent from approximately
202,000 to approximately 336,000 incidents per year. Rising
violent crime in the State, including the brutal and brazen
murder of Kimber Reynolds in 1992, and the rape and murder of
12-year-old Polly Klaas, were repeat offenders with lengthy
criminal histories mobilized Californians to demand and enact a
three-strikes law.
In March 1994, then Governor Pete Wilson, a Republican,
signed into law the three-strikes and you are out criminal
sentencing measure. The following November, California voters
reaffirmed the measure when they voted overwhelmingly in favor
of Proposition 184. That initiative was nearly identical to the
legislation signed by Governor Wilson. The law increased the
prison sentences of persons convicted of felonies who have been
previously convicted of a violent or serious felony. As a
result, violent crime in California between 1994, when the
proposition was imposed, and 2010, showed a 49 percent decrease
from approximately 319,000 to 164,000 incidents per year.
Twenty years later, California decided to adopt a soft-on-
crime approach. In 2014, Californians approved Prop. 47, which
in November 2014, California voters approved Prop. 47--I got
that twice, sorry. In November 2014, California voters approved
Prop. 47 which reclassified many felonies as misdemeanors. This
includes many drug crimes and theft of items that are worth
less than $950. Reclassifying these crimes from felonies to
misdemeanors mean that many defendants are no longer
susceptible to the three strikes laws passed in 1994.
In 2016, the State approved Prop. 57 which reformed the
parole system and allowed dangerous offenders to be eligible to
be released from prison. After more than a decade of
implementing these soft-on-crime policies, crime rates rose and
continued to rise in California. In 2023, violence crime
increased 15.1 percent from 2018 and increased 3.3 percent
compared to 2022.
Similarly, between 2018-2023, the aggravated assault rate
increased a staggering 30.6 percent in the State. While the
homicide rate declined by 15.8 percent in 2023 compared to
2022, a substantial increase of 9.1 percent occurred between
2018-2023. In other words, implying a decrease from all-time
highs as they do, this demonstrates that there is still a
significant problem and that there has been an overall growth
in increase in homicide rates. Further, despite having some of
the strictest gun control laws in the Nation, aggravated
assaults with firearms in California increased 63 percent
between 2018-2023. California's violent crime rate is 31
percent higher than the United States' rate and is driven by
the increase in aggravated assaults.
California also suffers from elected soft-on-crime
prosecutors. One of our witnesses today will tell us how that
has impacted her life. We are seeing similar policies being
enacted at the Federal level as well. One clear example of this
is found in the recent actions of the U.S. Sentencing
Commission. The Sentencing Commission has begun changing their
sentencing guidelines to shorten the sentences of criminals, as
well as their post-incarceration terms of supervision. These
types of changes will lead to the same results as we have seen
in California and Minnesota, a rise in crime and a decline in
safety at the Federal level. These recent changes are no doubt
only the beginning. The same folks who implemented the soft-on-
crime policies in California and Minnesota are now asking to
run the Federal Government. Why, based on their records, will
we believe they will be tough on crime and make our communities
safer? Americans deserve to live in safe communities, and they
deserve and want their elected officials to do everything they
can to make sure that this happens.
I am looking forward to the hearing. I appreciate our
witnesses being here and I appreciate the Members who are here
today, and I will yield back and now recognize Ms. McBath for
her opening statement.
Ms. McBath. Thank you, Chair, and thank you to our
witnesses for being with us today. I appreciate it.
Before we turn to the subject of today's hearing, I want to
take a moment to acknowledge the four lives that we lost to gun
violence at Apalachee High School in my home State of Georgia
last week. According to the gun violence archive, this is just
one of 389 mass shootings that have occurred so far this year.
That figure does not include firearm suicides. As always, I
continue to pray for the families of all those who have been
lost to gun violence, for those injured at Apalachee High
School and for the community of Winder, Georgia. This simply
has to end.
With the permission of the Chair, I would ask that we take
just a brief moment of silence for the four lives lost and for
their families.
As you said, please join us in the respectful moment of
silence for those losses.
[Moment of silence.]
Mr. Biggs. Thank you very much.
Ms. McBath. Thank you. I am here today because of my own
personal lived experience, after my son was violently killed in
broad daylight by a man with a gun. I did everything in my
power to make sure that my child's legacy would live on. I
endured two trials so that justice was delivered because the
man who took him from me and my family, he deserved to be held
accountable for what he did. My son's killer is now serving a
life sentence in prison. Since his conviction, I promised
myself that I would work every single day to prevent any mother
or any other father in this country or any other family from
feeling the pain of losing a loved one or fearing that their
child will not return home at the end of the day. I carry the
pain of losing my child every single day here in Congress, just
as I carry it with me here in this hearing today.
Over the last four years, President Biden, Vice President
Harris, and Congressional Democrats have acted time and time
again to invest in law enforcement, prevent crime, and make
sure that those who commit these crimes are held accountable.
Together, we passed the American Rescue Plan, which included
$350 billion in flexible aid to State and local governments.
This bill included $15 billion for public safety and violence
prevention. We also passed the bipartisan Safer Communities
Act, the first major gun violence prevention legislation this
country has seen in nearly 30 years. This legislation
established enhanced background checks for buyers under 21
years of age and these checks have already prevented 800 gun
sales to those who were prohibited by law from purchasing or
possessing firearms. The bipartisan Safer Communities Act also
helps law enforcement hold gun traffickers accountable by
establishing new crimes for gun trafficking and straw
purchasing.
Over 500 defendants have been charged under these new
crimes including traffickers linked to cartels. These laws have
been instrumental in making our communities safer and because
of these efforts, this year we are on track to have the lowest
level of crime this country has seen in 50 years. There
definitely is more that we can do, and I welcome collaboration
from my colleagues on the right, on any side of the aisle, to
join me in our work to stop crime.
Last Congress, House Democrats passed numerous bills that
would further promote public safety, invest in law enforcement
and keep guns out of the hands of people who simply should not
have access to them. Unfortunately, these efforts were
repeatedly opposed by all, but a few House Republicans and this
Congress, the Republican majority, has refused to consider
these bills and has even made efforts to remove money from the
budget of law enforcement agencies.
I urge my Republican colleagues to reconsider their
opposition. I remain committed to working with anyone who will
join me in our efforts to make our country a safer place for
every American, no matter who you vote for. I yield back.
Mr. Biggs. Thank you. I now recognize the Chair of the Full
Committee, Mr. Jordan, for his opening statement.
Chair Jordan. Thank you, Mr. Chair. I don't have an opening
statement. I just want to thank you for this important hearing,
and I look forward to hearing from our witnesses. Thank you all
for being here, talking about this very important issue. With
that, I would yield back to the Chair.
Mr. Biggs. Thank you, Mr. Chair. I now recognize the
Ranking Member for the Full Committee, Mr. Nadler.
Mr. Nadler. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Mr. Chair, in our first
week back from the August recess, this Subcommittee's first
hearing is nothing more than a campaign event with Donald
Trump. Rather than addressing policies that currently affect
the American people, the majority's witnesses are here to talk
about incidents from as far back as 2008. What happened to our
two victims' witnesses is unacceptable. No person deserves to
be a victim of crime, and I appreciate your being here to share
your stories. The majority's attempt to use this hearing to
prop up the Trump-Vance campaign is not even thinly veiled.
There is no intent whatsoever to disguise the purpose of this
hearing.
Not only is the majority desperate to attack the surging
popularity of Vice President Harris and Governor Walz, but they
are well aware that if they want to hold a hearing about the
current levels of crime in the U.S., that hearing would show
that crime has been declining dramatically and steadily under
the Biden-Harris Administration. The murder rate, in
particular, is down sharply this year in cities across America,
as it was during the past two years.
Meanwhile, Red States continue to have murder rates that
are higher than those of Blue States. Seven of the ten States
with the highest murder rates are Red States and eight of the
ten most dangerous cities in the U.S. are in Red States. As we
hold this hearing about the alleged consequences so-called
soft-on-crime policies, Republicans and their leader, Donald
Trump, continue to call for pardons for the January 6th
defendants who violently attempted to overthrow our Government
on that bloody day three years ago. They continue to try to
help Trump avoid accountability for his own serial criminal
conduct in his numerous court cases by attacking the
prosecutors, the judges, and the legal system itself.
Last, Congress under Democratic control, we advanced
important public safety legislation such as the VICTIM Act
which would have provided critical funding for law enforcement
to solve murders and other violent crimes. Republicans opposed
it. Now, that they are in the majority, Republicans have called
for abolishing the defunding the ATF and they have repeatedly
attacked the FBI and the Department of Justice through endless
conspiracy-focused hearings and closed-door investigations that
border on harassment.
It is Republicans who oppose sensible gun safety
legislation that would curb the flow of illegal guns and stem
the tide of gun violence in America. It has only been a week
since the latest school shooting in which a teenager used an
AR-15 to take the lives of two students and two teachers at a
school in Apalachee, Georgia, a place where students, parents,
and teachers have a right to expect that they will be
protected.
Republicans have made protection of deadly assault weapons
a top priority this Congress over the protection of students.
If they have the audacity to claim that it is Democrats who are
soft on crime, Democrats are focused on actual legislation and
policies that keep Americans safe. Democrats are keeping guns
out of the wrong hands, addressing the root causes of violence,
and investing in law enforcement. House Democrats have secured
substantially more money for public safety investments in their
districts, such as hiring police officers than House
Republicans have secured, in some cases, as much as 15 times
more. This disparity should tell us which party is more focused
on public safety and which is soft one crime.
The data also shows us that criminal justice reform
policies work. In 2018, both parties were able to unify behind
the First Step Act, a comprehensive sentencing reform package
that gave Federal inmates the opportunity to earn time off
their sentences for completing productive courses designed to
prevent them from re-
offending. This legislation has been a resounding success, as
the recidivism rate for inmates released early under the First
Step Act is far lower than that of other inmates. In the cities
in this country that have enacted bail reform by reducing or
eliminating the use of cash bail systems, study after study has
shown that the reforms have not led to an increase in crime.
Of course, no crime prevention or reform strategy is
perfect. There will always be individuals who slip through the
cracks and continue to break the law. That is what happened
with the individual who snatched Ms. Kiefer's purse in 2008
when he was in the Back On Track program in San Francisco. It
was when then-District Attorney Harris discovered that the
program had mistakenly admitted undocumented immigrants who
were not eligible for jobs in the United States, she quickly
closed that loophole. What the majority won't tell you is that
the person who took Ms. Kiefer's purse is the only undocumented
person who was admitted into the program and failed to
successfully complete it.
Instead, my Republican colleagues paint all immigrants with
the same broad brush as the ones who break the law, this week
going so far as to make fake and preposterous crime that they
claim immigrants are committing such as killing and eating
pets. Not only is this sort of demonization of immigrants
dangerous, but it flies in the face of the data which tells us
that U.S.-born citizens are nearly twice as likely to be
arrested for violent crimes as those who are in the country
illegally. That is why we do not legislate by anecdote. While
it is important to hear from crime victims and other impacted
persons, we must focus our policymaking on current data and on
verifiable trends.
We must also focus on what we know works to combat crime. A
combination of accountability and prevention that addresses not
just punishment, but also the root causes of crime such as
poverty, drug addiction, and structural inequalities. When and
if my Republican colleagues are willing to have serious
conversations about criminal justice policy, as we did when we
passed the First Step Act in 2018, and the bipartisan Safer
Communities Act last Congress, I will happily join them. This
hearing is nothing more than a campaign ad. I do not endorse
this message. Thank you, and I yield back.
Mr. Biggs. Without objection, all other opening statements
will be included in the record and today's witnesses will now
be introduced. We appreciate all of you being here.
We will begin with Mr. Brian Ingram over here. Mr. Ingram
is a chef and owner of Purpose Restaurants based in St. Paul,
Minnesota. He has over 30 years of experience in the restaurant
industry. In addition to serving customers, Purpose Restaurants
has focused on serving the community, having provided more than
300,000 meals, two million pounds of food, and $225,000 in
financial assistance to those in need since 2019. Thank you for
being with us today, Mr. Ingram.
Ms. Kiefer, Amanda Kiefer, Ms. Amanda Kiefer, is a former
San Francisco resident and crime victim. In 2008, she was
attacked by an illegal alien in San Francisco who had been
arrested on drug charges but was released to a job program
instead of being incarcerated.
We have Mr. Jim Schultz, who is the President of the
Minnesota Private Business Council, an organization that
advocates for policies that promote job growth, business
creation, entrepreneurship, and broad-based well-being for
Minnesota's workers and their families. Thank you all, for
being here.
Mr. Jim Kessler is Executive Vice President for Policy and
a Cofounder of Third Way, a nonprofit organization and think
tank. He previously served as a House and Senate staffer to
Senator Chuck Schumer.
We welcome all our witnesses today and I thank you for
appearing. We will begin by swearing you in. Would you please
rise and raise your right hand?
Do each of you swear or affirm under penalty of perjury
that the testimony you are about to give is true and correct to
the best of your knowledge, information, and belief, so help
you God?
Let the record please reflect the witnesses have all
answered in the affirmative and you may be seated.
Please know that your written testimony will be entered
into the record in its entirety. Accordingly, we ask that you
summarize your testimony in five minutes, and you will see
there is a timer in front of you and at some point, if you
start rolling on past five too much, I will gently tap a
reminder. If you go too far, then I will whack it pretty good
and remind you that you need to wrap up. It is not to be rude.
Nobody will be upset with you. We are just trying to keep this
thing moving in an orderly fashion.
So, we are going to begin now with you, Mr. Ingram, for
your five minutes.
STATEMENT OF BRIAN INGRAM
Mr. Ingram. Chair Biggs and the Members, today, first, we
are just so grateful to be here and have this opportunity. I am
not going to talk to you about data. I am going to talk to you
about real-life experiences. Really my prayer for today is that
of open hearts and open minds. I am passionate about our
community. We have stepped up since 2019 to create a better
community. We set out with the name of our restaurant, Purpose
Restaurants, to have a safe, inclusive environment. We reached
out to all different community members to understand what that
looks like. We have made it our calling to be of service to our
community.
We say we want to share meals with people that don't look
like us, that don't believe like us, because that is what is
important. I moved to Minnesota in 2012 from New York. In those
first 5-6 years, I had one burglary that happened. Since 2019
and beyond, I know we are North of 12 burglaries. I cannot tell
you how many incidents at one of our restaurants in downtown
St. Paul that we have had overdoses, that we have had people on
our patios overturning them. I can't tell you how many times we
have seen violent acts taking place in our restaurants. I
cannot tell you how many times I have heard from our District
Attorney that we have reduced charges. We are letting them off.
We reduced them to under $1,000, even though our expenses were
far greater than that.
The gentleman sitting behind me, Jeff, is my business
partner. His son, Johnny, died of a fentanyl overdose above our
restaurant. His drug dealer, we had all his information. We
gave it to the police. That drug dealer was never arrested, and
he is still on our streets today. These violent crimes and acts
that happen in our restaurants and within our homes, St. Paul
was my home from the time I moved there, except for a short
time I was in Minneapolis. We moved after our car was recently
stolen; house was broken into. My son's daycare, in St. Paul,
Minnesota, recently had young kids stole the car again, again,
I believe it happened several times and crashed it, but for the
grace of God, into a tree that stopped them from going into the
playground where three-year-olds are playing on our streets.
This happens day in and day out in our community and nothing is
being done about it.
I can't tell you how many times I have listened to St. Paul
police officers. This man has been arrested over 50 times,
Brian. I am sorry. There is nothing we can do. He got back out,
came back, burglarized us again, got back out within 24 hours I
am told, and burglarized us again. So, we can talk about data.
We can talk about how you can manipulate data. We can talk
about political parties, none of that means anything to me.
What matters to me is that my community is safe. What matters
to me is when I get a call saying can you help pay for our
funeral? My daughter was killed, Trinity, by random gunfire in
St. Paul.
What matters to me is that our streets and our community
are taken care of and our first priority as citizens, as public
services, it is to serve our community and that is what I am
praying for that happens today. Hearts and minds are open. This
is not a political issue. This is a human issue. We need to
focus on human beings.
[The prepared statement of Mr. Ingram follows:]
[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Mr. Biggs. Thank you, Mr. Ingram. Appreciate that. Now, Ms.
Kiefer, we will recognize you for your five minutes.
STATEMENT OF AMANDA KIEFER
Ms. Kiefer. Thanks for giving me an opportunity to speak
about my experience. I was a victim of crime in San Francisco
back in 2008. I was robbed and my skull was fractured in two
places. I had about a dozen staples in the back of my head and
nearly lost my hearing in my left ear. The guy who did it was a
convicted felon, illegal immigrant that should have been in
jail instead. As Congressman Nadler mentioned, he was enrolled
in this job training program on the taxpayers' dollar for jobs
he couldn't legally hold. That was crazy to find out
afterwards.
This type of program is happening throughout the country,
too. That program was touted as a success, and it is hard to
believe that there isn't more than one illegal involved in
that.
The journalists and politicians like to repeat the
statistics that immigrants commit less crimes than Americans,
even if not manipulated. I think I find that kind of
irrelevant. If we are letting in any more criminals, that is
one too many. We already have enough criminals in this country,
and we really do little to keep them from committing more
crimes.
Certain politicians no longer hide their commitment to that
Marxist principal that criminals are just victims of capitalism
that not a job or handout will eliminate their tendency toward
violent crime and jails and prisons have become a revolving
door. No bail laws, later sentencings, and again, politics for
leniency put violent people on the streets again to harm
others. There is no fear of being caught or any reason to stop
committing crimes.
Our Vice President encouraged defunding police in the
Summer 2020 and supporting a bail fund to let violent repeat
offenders out of jail. Many of them went on to commit horrible
crimes and that same Summer, her running mate opened his
windows and marveled at the smell of his city being burned
down.
One of the most heart-wrenching part of hearing from
victims' families is when they lose a loved one is that it
could have been prevented. It is rarely a first-time offender.
It is the backlog of sexual assault kits have been processed,
if they had served time for their prior time, if they hadn't
been let into our porous border, their loved one would still be
with them and the gut punch, it is unfair, heart breaking, and
Americans need to stop putting up with it. No one is taking
accountability for failing to keep the American people safe.
[The prepared statement of Ms. Kiefer follows:]
[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Mr. Biggs. Thank you, Ms. Kiefer.
Mr. Kessler, I now recognize you for five minutes.
STATEMENT OF JIM KESSLER
Mr. Kessler. Thank you, Chair Biggs, Ranking Member McBath,
and the Members of the Committee, and also to the fellow
panelists here.
I also want to acknowledge Kylie Murdock, the Third Way
Policy Advisor for her work on this issue and also Jeremy, our
fellow, who's done great work on this issue.
I've been obsessed with crime since the 1976 All-Star Game
in Philadelphia when I was mugged. I've also had the privilege
of working for a former Chair and Ranking Member of the Crime
Subcommittee. Now, I get to testify, but I'm baffled by this
topic. We're here to talk about soft-on-crime policies and have
been offered up Minnesota Governor Tim Walz and California
under Attorney General Kamala Harris as object lessons, yet
both of these States are safer than the rest of the country, or
most of the rest of the country.
I did not say safe; I said safer.
Forty years ago, I had a gun pressed to my forehead in
downtown Boston. Thirty years ago, I had a gun leveled at my
chest in rural Maine. No place in America is safe. Today the
murder rate in Minnesota under Tim Walz is 12th lowest in the
Nation, is less than half that of the national average. It is
lower than the murder rates of all the 11 members of the States
of the Subcommittee Members here.
If America had the same murder rate as Minnesota, since the
start of this century there would be 186,000 more Americans
alive today. If Arizona had the same murder rate as Minnesota,
since the start of the century there would be 5,600 more
Arizonans alive. There would be 12,800 more Floridians, 16,600
more Texans, 5,800 more South Carolinians.
California under AG Kamala Harris had a murder rate also
below the national average and a murder rate half that of Red
States like Mississippi, Louisiana, and Alabama. If all of
America had the same murder rate as California, from the State
of this century there would be 62,000 more Americans alive.
If you look at what has made Minnesota and California
successful relative to the rest of the Nation, it is
accountability, holding criminal accountable, and prevention,
investing in efforts to give people a path away from crime. I
want to touch briefly on four areas.
Police funding. Minnesota ranks 10th in the Nation in
police spending per capita. California is No. 1. Under Attorney
General Harris convictions rates hit a 15-year high. Across the
Nation per capita spending on police is 33 percent higher in
Blue States than in Red States. If you're not funding police
and convicting criminals, you're soft on crime.
Poverty. Strong correlation between poverty rates and
crime. If you're addressing poverty, you're soft on crime.
Prevention programs. Most violent crimes are committed by
people between the ages of 16-25. Many are mentally ill and on
drugs. If you're not addressing substance abuse, mental health,
idle kids, you're soft on crime.
Guns. Eighty-six percent of all murders are by guns. If
guns are only seen as a solution to the crime problem and not a
cause, if there isn't a balance between gun rights and gun
accountability, you're soft on crime.
Walz and Harris have successful results on crime because
they check the accountability and prevention boxes. Police
funding under Walz is up and after the murder of George Floyd
he called on investments in community policing.
Police funding under Biden-Harris, both Federal law
enforcement and local law enforcement, is also up. They each
address poverty: School lunches, child tax credit, et cetera.
They invested in substance abuse, mental health, after school
programs, and summer jobs. Within the confines of the Second
Amendment, they each passed gun safety laws.
A word about illegal immigration: It was soft on crime to
not pass the bipartisan border security bill. That's water
under the bridge. Studies show undocumented immigrants commit
fewer violent crimes than general population. I know are
skeptical of that study and that doesn't help people who were
victims, but I want to say something that is irrefutable:
The three States that have by far the highest murder rates
in America: Mississippi, Louisiana, and Alabama, have among the
lowest immigrant populations of any State in the country. The
bulk of America's crime problem comes from Americans, not
migrants.
In 2020, the last year of the Trump Administration, we had
an unprecedented 30-percent spike in murders. By 2022, under
Biden-Harris, crime and murder rates fell. It's continuing
again in 2023-2024. For each year of this century, each and
every year this century, Red States have had higher murder
rates than Blue States.
I truly believe that Republicans believe they are tough on
crime because they talk tough on crime. The results should make
people skeptical. Thank you.
[The prepared statement of Mr. Kessler follows:]
[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Mr. Biggs. Thank you, Mr. Kessler.
Mr. Schultz, you are recognized for your five minutes.
STATEMENT OF JIM SCHULTZ
Mr. Schultz. Chair, Ranking Member, and distinguished
Members of the Committee, thank you for the opportunity to
speak today.
I'm here because the American people deserve to hear the
unvarnished truth. Tim Walz' record on crime has left Minnesota
in crisis. During his tenure the State has become a place where
criminals run free, where law enforcement is assailed, and
where families are without the safety and security they
deserve.
Here is the question we all must ask: If Tim Walz can't
protect his own back yard, how could we possibly trust him to
protect the entire Nation?
In January 2021, my sister, a resident of Minneapolis,
called me terrified. Her home had just been in the middle of a
shootout involving a violent criminal. A police officer had to
rush her out of her home, shielding her from stray bullets. Her
home was left pockmarked with bullet holes, an experience far
too many Minnesotans are now familiar with. Under Tim Walz the
streets of Minneapolis went from a place to walk your dog to a
place to dodge gunfire.
Let's go back to the Summer 2020 when the George Floyd
protests spiraled into riots. As Governor Tim Walz refused to
deploy the National Guard for days, allowing violence to
escalate unchecked. While flames engulfed his cities Walz
twiddled his thumbs. By the time he finally acted Minneapolis
suffered over $500 million in damage and his inaction inspired
violence across the country. The riots were ultimately the
second costliest in U.S. history. Those terrible days
demonstrated that Tim Walz has at least mastered one skill: The
art of standing idly by while his State spirals into chaos.
Fast forward to today. Violent crime is Tim Walz' legacy.
Homicides have surged by 75 percent and gunshot victims have
doubled. Carjackings were once so rare in my State that they
weren't separately tracked. Now, there are hundreds every year.
This surge in crime is not just a pile of statistics. It's a
harsh reality affecting everyday lives and livelihoods.
As a leader of the Minnesota Private Business Council, I
have seen the impact firsthand. Businesses are closing left and
right due to break-ins, theft, and vandalism. Large parts of
Minneapolis and St. Paul, after decades of successful growth
and investment, have become ghost towns, substantially driven
by violent crime.
Once a powerhouse for generating companies like Target and
Best Buy and General Mills, Minnesota, boasts the distinction
of having the sixth slowest growing economy in the entire
Nation, of course driven meaningfully by its rate of violent
crime.
Worst of all, Walz has seen all this and sat idly. Case in
point, Walz did nothing about the Minnesota Freedom Fund. The
fund, which was endorsed by Kamala Harris, raised $40 million
in 2020 to bail out countless violent criminals including
individuals charged with rape, assault, and attempted murder.
One man, George Howard, who had been charged with domestic
assault, murdered an innocent man named Luis Damian Martinez
Ortiz just weeks after being bailed out. Thanks to Kamala
Harris' favorite charity and Walz' tacit endorsement, violent
offenders have received get-out-of-jail-free cards and
Minnesotans have paid the price with their lives.
I have just scratched the surface of Tim Walz' ignoble
record. He has refused to stand up to radicals in the Democrat
Party who pushed to defund the police. He has refused to stand
up to hard-left prosecutors who prosecute police for simply
doing their jobs and excuse the criminality of violent
criminals. He has refused to protect our schools by forcing law
enforcement out of them.
As we consider the possibility of Tim Walz in the White
House, we must ask ourselves do we want a Vice President whose
legacy is defined by hesitation, cowardice, submission to
radicals, and policies that have emboldened criminals, taken
lives and scarred families, and broken entire communities?
Absolutely not.
Minnesotans deserve better than Tim Walz and so does
America. Thank you.
[The prepared statement of Mr. Schultz follows:]
[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Mr. Biggs. Thank you, Mr. Schultz.
Now, I am going to go to--I recognize Mr. Tiffany, the
gentleman from Wisconsin, for his five minutes of questioning.
So, we are going to proceed with five minutes of
questioning that will wrap up with a question you--if you are
in the middle of giving an answer, don't worry. I will let you
go on to finish the answer providing you are not filibustering.
We will go ahead, give you some time to respond.
Mr. Tiffany?
Mr. Tiffany. Mr. Chair, this hearing is so timely.
Mr. Schultz, a Minnesota Senate panel was investigating the
2020 riots, and a Minneapolis police officer said they were
prepared to defend the city but were instead instructed to
stand down and let demonstrators take it. You think allowing
the city to burn down while law enforcement watched was the
right call?
Mr. Schultz. It was not the right call. My sister actually
during that time, she--this was prior to her incidents. She
lived in Minneapolis at that time and there were people who
were stashing cans of gas under porches and so forth for later
use during the riots. The fact that--yes, please?
Mr. Tiffany. Didn't Governor Walz have the ultimate
authority to be able to deal with this issue by calling out the
National Guard?
Mr. Schultz. He did. He did. He sat on his hands for three
days. It was the most--looking back on that time as a
Minnesotan--I'm a fifth-generation Minnesotan. My roots go back
very deep into the State. It was the most painful time in my
State's history and in my memory. We had a Governor that
watched everything happening, that watched his largest city,
Minneapolis, descend into chaos, that watched other cities,
including St. Paul and other cities, have incredible violence.
He sat on his hands while Minneapolis burned. It was an
absolute disgrace. It was something for which Minnesotan will
be dealing--Minnesota will be dealing with for decades, and Tim
Walz was ultimately responsible for that incredible failure.
Mr. Tiffany. Mr. Ingram, on the night the third precinct
burned I received a message from a very good friend of mine who
managed a chain of restaurants in the Twin Cities area. He sent
a message to me at one point saying could you call anyone,
including the President, to try to get this under control? What
was going through your mind that night as this friend of mine--
his restaurant burned down?
Mr. Ingram. What I can say is our experience as a
restaurant owner--we had the same thing. One of our restaurants
became a staging ground for folks that were going into
communities to steal from them. Our restaurant, the Gnome, has
a large parking lot. SUVs with no license plates, trailers with
no license plates. Called our police and they said I
unfortunately we don't have the resources; we can't protect it.
This is 140-year-old firehouse that we had recently taken
possession of. So, me and my family went and posted up in our
parking lot to protect our restaurant. We were then given
information that we could not protect our business, the
direction was to flee. We can protect ourselves, but we cannot
protect our business.
So, I understand the heartache of what he had to have been
going through. I also understand the heartache of Minnesotans
over the death of George Floyd. What is inexcusable is that we
didn't act to save our community and to step up to save our
community.
Mr. Tiffany. Is it any surprise to you--and perhaps you saw
the news story that in one of the counties I represent in
Western Wisconsin, St. Croix County, there was a Sheriff's
Deputy that was shot as a result of soft-on-crime polices in
the Twin Cities. A guy came out of the Twin Cities, repeat
offender, came over, was drunk driving, got stopped, shot a
Sheriff's Deputy in St. Croix County. Is it surprising at all
that this happened?
Mr. Ingram. My heart breaks for law enforcement in the Twin
Cities. Unfortunately, out of our business in the last year-
and-a-half we've paid--we've contributed to--I believe we're
over 60,000 to help pay for the funerals of these first
responders. We've donated 100 percent of every dollar of our
sales to help pay for these funerals.
What I can tell you is the men and women that I speak to on
a daily basis are heartbroken. The rhetoric that goes around
about these men and women, on this day of all days, on 9/11--
why these heroes are not celebrated and why this continues to
happen in our city is unfathomable.
Mr. Tiffany. Mr. Schultz, yes or no, are you surprised
people are leaving Minnesota in droves at this point in part
because of the increase in crime?
Mr. Schultz. I hear that story every day around the State
and hope people will stay, but I understand it.
Mr. Tiffany. Are people in Western Wisconsin right to be
concerned that this crime wave in the Twin Cities may end up
over in their back door as suburbs of the Twin Cities?
Mr. Schultz. Yes, absolutely.
Mr. Tiffany. Mr. Chair, I grew up in the shadow of the Twin
Cities in Western Wisconsin. We were always proud to go to
Minneapolis and St. Paul. I went to college at UW River Falls.
Minneapolis and St. Paul were two of the finest cities in
America. Just like San Francisco it is going downhill because
of these soft-on-crime policies.
Mr. Biggs. The gentleman yields back.
The Chair recognizes the Ranking Member of the whole
Committee, Mr. Nadler.
Mr. Nadler. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Mr. Biggs. Before that, Mr. Nadler, apparently Mr. Johnson
has a--
Mr. Johnson. I would ask unanimous consent to submit for
the record this article entitled, quote, ``Audio shows Trump
praised Waltz in 2020 for response to unrest over George
Floyd's murder,'' in which, Trump is recorded saying, quote,
``What they did in Minneapolis was incredible. They went in and
dominated, and it happened immediately.''
I would also ask for unanimous consent to enter into the
record a research report from The Brennan Center for Justice
entitled, ``Bail Reform and Public Safety Data From 33 States
Across the Country.''
Mr. Biggs. Thirty-three cities.
Mr. Johnson. Also, ``Bail Reform and Public Safety:
Evidence from 33 Cities: Methodological Supplement,'' and a
letter from Kara Gotsch, Executive Director of the Sentencing
Project, September 10, 2024.
Mr. Biggs. Without objection.
Mr. Johnson. Mr. Chair, your skills in reading are really
good.
Mr. Biggs. Reading over your shoulder?
Yes. I was a lawyer. I needed to read upside-down.
Mr. Johnson. Well, I had to do that myself from time to
time.
Mr. Biggs. Yes. All right. Now, Ranking Member Nadler, I
yield five minutes to you.
Mr. Nadler. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Mr. Kessler, in June of this year you co-authored an
opinion piece entitled, ``Crime is Way Down--Why Aren't
Democrats Talking About It?'' Now, is as good a time as any, so
let's talk about it.
From your research what have you found with respect to
murder rates in the United States?
Mr. Kessler. Well, one of the things that we've found--and
if you look at over the last 23 years, from 2000-2022, murder
rates in Red States, the 25 Red States, which we define as the
States that voted for Donald Trump, and the 25 Blue States that
voted for Joe Biden--the murder rates in Red States have been
higher than the murder rates in Blue States for every one of
those 23 years. In 2022, they were 33 percent higher.
Mr. Nadler. How about the trend in murder rates over
those--
Mr. Kessler. Murder rates spiked in 2020 under Donald
Trump. Whether it's his fault or not, who knows? They peaked in
2021. They've declined in 2022. They declined again in 2023 and
they're declining again in 2024. The decline in 2023 was the
largest one-year decline in murder rates in recorded history.
Mr. Nadler. Thank you. What have you found with violent
crime more broadly in the United States?
Mr. Kessler. Violent crime is dropping in the United
States. I would still say this is not a safe country. OK? We
have 500 million guns in private hands. The stakes are very
high, but violent crime is down.
Mr. Nadler. What have you found about crime rates
generally, not just violent crime?
Mr. Kessler. Crime rates are declining in America. They
peaked again in 2020. Definitely an explosion in crime in 2020.
Crested in 2021 and dropping in 2022-2023. They continue to be
dropping now. Again, I would still say we are not a safe
country. This is still a country that's not safe enough, but
it's safer than it was.
Mr. Nadler. I think you may have answered this, how do
these rates compare across Red States and Blue States or
cities?
Mr. Kessler. Yes, so look, in general crime rates are
higher in Red States, not all Red States, but eight of the
top--typically eight of the top 10 murder States are Red States
and the very top are Mississippi, Louisiana, and Alabama. They
have murder rates that are four times the murder rates of
places like--certainly, Minnesota, probably twice--that's twice
the murder rates of California, three times the murder rate of
New York.
Mr. Nadler. Thank you. Are your findings in all this
research consistent with other authorities such as the FBI, the
Major City Chiefs Association and the Council on Criminal
Justice?
Mr. Kessler. They are. I just want to say on murders we use
the Center for Disease Control data because that is the most
accurate on homicides since every death as a cause of death
with a death certificate.
Mr. Nadler. Can you explain why accountability and
prevention are important to respond to crime, and more
specifically to violent crime?
Mr. Kessler. Look, I don't think you can solve crime doing
just one thing. You're not going to incarcerate your way out of
this problem; you're not going to police yourself out of this
problem, although those are both important. You've got to
prevent crimes before they happen. Most of the people who
commit crimes are between the ages of 16-25. Making sure kids
aren't idle. A lot of kids have emotional problems, mental
health problems. There's substance abuse out there. Like you
just have to have a whole-of-person, whole-of-community
approach to crime.
I would say what is happening in Red States, they really
skimp on all the prevention side. There's an over-reliance on
guns as being a solution to the crime problem and not how it
can be part of the crime problem. They also tend to fund police
a little bit less than Blue States.
Mr. Nadler. In your article, you said that voters want a
balanced approach of accountability and prevention. You went on
to say that is what the Democrats are doing. They already
walking a walk. Can you explain what you mean by that?
Mr. Kessler. Yes. So, if you look, we did public opinion
polling on crime. We've done it several times and found some
very interesting things. Voters believe you just need a dual
approach. Like they get it. They know that it's complicated.
They see it in the neighborhoods. They're experienced in it.
They see that Republicans are overly reliant on what they think
is harsh-on-crime. Frankly, they think Democrats are overly
reliant on prevention. Democrats actually do both, but that's
what voters believe. They want to see both because they think
both parts work.
Mr. Nadler. Thank you. I have 13 seconds left; I yield
back.
Chair Jordan. Thank you. The Chair recognizes the Chair of
the entire Committee, Mr. Jordan.
Chair Jordan. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Mr. Ingram, who told you that you couldn't defend your
property?
Mr. Ingram. I believe it was our police chief who I was on
the phone with that said--I believe it's a Minnesota statute, I
believe is what I was told, that you can't protect your
business with force. You can protect your home and your person,
but not your business. We were told that we needed to flee.
Chair Jordan. A State law that says you can't protect the
property that you worked for, you invested in, your family put
money into, that serves your community being fire-bombed,
looted, and destroyed? You weren't allowed to protect it?
Mr. Ingram. That is my understanding.
Chair Jordan. You went to protect it. How were you going to
protect it if, in fact, you were allowed to?
Mr. Ingram. Yes, so we showed up at our place of business
armed. We showed up to protect our business and that's--
Chair Jordan. Well, think about this. Think about this: You
were told by your government you couldn't protect your property
and Mr. Kessler and Democrats want to take away your ability to
protect yourself because they don't want you to have a gun.
Mr. Ingram. Yes, I--
Chair Jordan. You can't make this stuff up.
Mr. Ingram. You cannot.
Chair Jordan. This is where the left is today. Don't
protect your business even though the bad guys are looting it
and burning it down. By the way, we also want to take your guns
so you can't protect yourself, your kids, your wife, your
family, and people you care about. In America with the Second
Amendment.
Mr. Ingram. I will tell you an instance where we had--
Chair Jordan. By the way, the people who told you that, you
pay their salary.
Mr. Ingram. We had an instance--
Chair Jordan. That is such a deal the Democrats have for
the American people.
Mr. Ingram. Yes. We had an instance where we had somebody
that was flipping tables over, spitting on members of our team.
The police were told they could do nothing about it. I came
down from one of our other restaurants, went hands on with the
person, and was told that I would be the one that would go to
jail.
Chair Jordan. You don't blame the police because they are
busting their tail trying to deal with all this chaos going on,
but your Governor had the opportunity to call in the National
Guard. The President of the United States told him he would do
that if he wanted it, but he has to request it. He waited how
long to do it?
Mr. Ingram. Three days is my understanding.
Chair Jordan. Three whole days. Did you lose one of your
businesses, one of your restaurants?
Mr. Ingram. We did not lose our business by the grace of
God. Our businesses were all affected. We had gunshot holes in
our restaurants.
Chair Jordan. A lot of your friends and families, or people
in your community did lose businesses, didn't they?
Mr. Ingram. They did. They did.
Chair Jordan. Yes, Mr. Tiffany talked about a friend of
his--I think it was a Wendy's restaurant burnt to the ground.
Mr. Ingram. It was truly heartbreaking what happened in
Minnesota.
Chair Jordan. Yes. By the way, Mr. Kessler and the
Democrats want to take away your firearm. It is crazy. It is
crazy. I yield to the Chair. I yield back to the Chair.
Mr. Kessler. Mr. Chair, can I just respond for 10 seconds
on that?
Mr. Biggs. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
No, sir, you don't control the time. This is not an open
forum. Sorry.
Thank you, Mr. Chair, and I will take that two minutes and
ten seconds, because Mr. Ingram said--doesn't care about
statistics because these are personal issues that deal with
real human beings. We just heard a lot of statistical spouting
that there are lies, damn lies, and there are statistics,
right?
So, let's consider this: Say you got Columbus, Ohio. What
do they show? They show a drop in violent crime of 41 percent.
That is what they show. Now, why do they show that? Because our
officers and the citizens they serve are still battling crime
daily, but it is recent changes in crime reporting that have
done little more than create the illusion is all is well.
If you recategorize violent crimes like aggravated assault
and you say this is a misdemeanor now, you are going to really
drive statistics down on violent crime. If you say we are not
counted as a theft if it is not above 950 bucks, or in one of
the towns in my State 2,000 bucks, you are going to drive your
theft and burglary statistics down. They are going to go down.
You are going to be saying this is the best time. We have
really seen an improvement in law enforcement and if you are
not counting everything, if you are not getting everything, the
data.
I am going to introduce into the record later on here, and
I am going to talk about it in my next time, you are going to
find that there are jurisdictions that have not received
reporting requirements for six months at a time. They are not
even there. Then, if you want to talk about Red States, take
Phoenix out of Arizona and tell me what your murder rate is
then. Because when that happens, it goes down precipitously.
With that, I now recognize the gentleman from Georgia, Mr.
Johnson, for his five minutes.
[No response.]
Mr. Biggs. Microphone, brother.
Mr. Johnson. I am sorry. Thank you. Before the clock start
running, I would like to ask unanimous consent to submit for
the record this article from ABC News entitled, ``FBI's Latest
Data Shows Historic Drop in Crime.'' I ask unanimous consent to
submit this article from PolitiFact titled, ``Joe Biden is
Correct That Violent Crime is Near a 50-Year Low.'' Notably
that article and analysis are based on the FBI violent crime
statistics from 2022, and we know violent crime has fallen even
more since then.
Mr. Biggs. Well, does it say that last part? Does that say
that in the title of the article?
Mr. Johnson. I believe it may.
Mr. Biggs. I don't think it does, brother. No, but is that
the name of the article? The answer is no. Without objection we
will admit that, but that is not the name of the article,
brother.
Mr. Johnson. Well, thank you, sir. I am going to start
shielding my work.
[Laughter.]
Mr. Biggs. I would like to play card with you, man.
Mr. Johnson. Well, yes.
Mr. Biggs. You probably show your cards.
Mr. Johnson. That is right. You look at all my stuff.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. This issue of crime is an important
issue, but unfortunately it has been reduced to a political
spectacle coming the day after a debate debacle by Donald
Trump, followed by a very timely endorsement by Taylor Swift.
So, I am really humbled to be here today at this particular
time when the future President of the United States acquitted
herself so well last time. A former prosecutor.
Mr. Kessler, you talked about some statistics out of
California that demonstrate the prowess of our Presidential
nominee, Kamala Harris. Could you go over some of those? Before
you do that though, I know you had some response that you were
itching to get out. Please feel free to do that at this time.
Mr. Kessler. Thank you, Congressman. I just want to say
first for the record I believe in the Second Amendment right. I
believe that it is an individual right. Those rights come with
responsibilities; that is what the Heller decision was in 2005,
and allow for reasonable restrictions. If we had reasonable
restrictions, I think this country would be a safer place.
Mr. Johnson. At this point we don't have reasonable
restrictions on things like assault weapons.
Mr. Kessler. I was working for Congressman Chuck Schumer
when we passed the assault weapons ban 216 to 214 in 1994. It
was one of the highlights of my career.
Mr. Johnson. What were the impacts of crime during that 10-
year period when the assault weapons ban was in place? Violent
crime.
Mr. Kessler. So, we saw a huge drop between 1994-2004 in
murders and violent crime because of the assault weapons ban,
because of the Brady law, which passed in 1993, and I would
also say because of the Federal bipartisan crime bill that put
more cops on the street and had a lot more after school
programs. Also, we had some tough sentencing in there, too,
that not everybody liked, but it also had drug courts and other
things to remove nonviolent criminals out of the court system
and seek treatment. That types of whole-of-government, whole-
of-person, and whole-of-community approach seemed to work.
Mr. Johnson. Well, that aspect of draconian sentences
though has proved to not have been effective. So, this tough-
on-crime mentality of lock them up and throw away the key does
not work, but things like poverty prevention, crime prevention
policies, sexual abuse, mental health, and stringent gun laws--
those things have proven to be effective, have they not?
Mr. Kessler. They have. If you think of the most violent
criminals are between the ages of 16-25. Like if they have
something to do, if they're dealing with their mental health
issues, their sexual abuse issues, their poverty, and all those
things--if you're doing those things and also working to stop
the illegal market in firearms that are funneling guns to
underage kids, those are things that you can do that can make a
real difference.
Mr. Johnson. So, the young man who took four lives last
week at his high school in Georgia, he was not an immigrant,
was he?
Mr. Kessler. He was not. Most of the crimes in this country
are committed by Americans.
Mr. Johnson. This young man had been gifted a AR-15-style
assault weapon by his parent for Christmas. He was only 14
years old. A child. What does that say about the gun culture
that exists in this country that is so promiscuous with regard
to guns on the street and in the hands of everyone? How does
that affect crime?
Mr. Kessler. It is a fact of life, in the United States
there are about 500 million guns in private hands, OK? That's a
lot. If the owners of those guns aren't treating them with the
utmost responsibility, including themselves and their family
members, like there's going to be tragedies like this over and
over and over again. We've seen it. We've seen it.
Mr. Johnson. Thank you. I have got four seconds to yield
back, and I will gladly do so.
Mr. Biggs. Thank you. Thanks, Mr. Johnson.
The Chair recognizes the gentleman from Texas, Mr. Nehls,
for his five minutes.
Mr. Nehls. Thank you so very much. A lot of this data quite
honestly is sickening. I was an old sheriff of Fort Bend
County, Texas. Big, big county outside of the city of Houston.
Familiar with reporting crime. We had this crime data we would
send. It was called the UCR, the Uniform Crime Report. We would
send it. The FBI took it all.
Now, the FBI has changed it. Now, it is called NIBRS. Much
more difficult. Many, many large cities--it is so confusing
many, many large cities couldn't even comply with NIBRS to
submit this crime data. Many agencies have failed to reach
compliance. So, the idea that crime is down is all malarkey.
Chicago, LA, and New York City failed to even report in
2021, because it is just too damn complicated. Matter of fact,
what is interesting about the FBI, in 2023 now, city of
Baltimore, they claim they wouldn't know how many murders they
have, right? They said 262 murders in Baltimore 2023. The FBI
reports, 225-225. Now, why would they do that?
So, Mr. Kessler, bad information. You got a lot of bad
information.
I want to say this: The 10--talking about dangerous cities
in America. You look at these cities:
St. Louis: Democrat-run, a long time Democrat-run.
Detroit: Democrat-run, long time.
New Orleans: Scary, don't go without a weapon, Democrat-run.
Memphis: Go ahead, go ahead with me there, Democrat-run.
People leaving, everybody wants to come to the great State
of Texas and Florida, Democrat-run.
Milwaukee. If you want to say it with me, you can. Democrat-
run.
Minneapolis: Democrat-run.
I feel for you, sir. I feel for you up there in that great
State. You not only have a very liberal socialist as the
Governor up there. You also have a very liberal State House and
State Senate.
Austin, Texas: Democrat-run.
San Fransicko: Democrat-run.
Denver: Democrat-run.
Many of these individuals have the district attorneys that
are supposed to prosecute these violent offenders and keep them
locked up. George Soros funded DAs. Letting them all out.
I have got a graph here that shows incarceration rates in
Minnesota, Minneapolis. Incarceration rates are down while
crime is up. Crime is up. Violent crime is up in Minneapolis.
It is up in Minnesota. In 2021, it reached its peak. You got a
little bit--it is going down a little bit, but it is still
very, very high. Because they don't want to put anybody in
jail, don't want to offend anybody. Don't want to offend
anybody. Let's not put the victims first. Let's put the
suspects first. I tell you something: The American people are
seeing it.
We had a hearing yesterday, Chair, did we not, with
families that lost loved ones due to the Kamala Harris border
crisis, border czar she is. I am not the border czar. I am the
border czar. I am not the border czar. Last night we saw
nothing but a bunch of lies, misinformation in that debate.
I think the American people can see through this. They see
what is happening to our country with the invasion at the
Southern border. They can see it. I tell you they can see it in
Minnesota, they can see it in Wisconsin, they can see it in
every State now, folks, is a border State. The criminals are
coming through. Poor Colorado. That violent gang out of
Venezuela. They are there. They are eating ducks or chickens,
cats or whatever there in Indianapolis.
The problem is this administration, Kamala Harris doesn't
put the American people first. Doesn't put individuals like
you, sir, and your hard-working business, your family--they
don't put them first. They put you last. They put you last.
They put the American people last.
When you have to sit in these hearings yesterday and listen
to the pain of these mothers that have lost their loved ones to
brutal violence from these animals that this administrative has
let into this country--shame on them. Don't worry, I will say
this, miss, help is on its way. The greatest President in my
lifetime is coming back on November 5th, because the American
people can see through this charade with this dangerous,
dangerous administration. I yield back, sir.
Mr. Biggs. The gentleman yields.
The Chair recognizes the gentleman from California, Mr.
Kiley, for five minutes.
Mr. Kiley. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Just a couple weeks ago the Governor of California Gavin
Newsom referred to California's crime policy as a national
model. Vice President Harris, of course herself from
California, has said that California is a, quote, ``role model
for what can be done around the country.'' So, I think that
this hearing, looking specifically at California's crime
situation, is a timely opportunity to evaluate that thesis as
to what kind of a national model California provides when it
comes to its approach to crime.
That approach consists of three main elements:
First, a systematic effort to defund police departments in
cities like Los Angeles, San Francisco, and Oakland.
Second, a systematic effort to not enforce criminal laws
with the election of so-called progressive prosecutors like
George Gascon, Kamala Harris, and Chesa Boudin in San
Francisco; Gascon again in LA; Pamela Price in Oakland.
Third, is just taking a hatchet to the criminal code with
laws like Prop. 47, for example, which passed in 2014 and
effectively legalized retail theft spawning this crisis of
retail theft and smash-and-grabs across California.
Prop. 47 also effectively legalized drug possession even
for Class A drugs, even for fentanyl. What that has done has
made it impossible for us to get folks who have drug addiction
the help that they need so that you have them just living on
our streets and tragically all too often dying on our streets
in these open-air drug markets that you have to walk through,
wade through in many of our major cities.
Two years after Prop. 47 came Prop. 57, which made tens of
thousands of very serious heinous criminals eligible for early
release.
Now, of course, California voters would never have passed
such a thing if it were properly described to them, but
unfortunately the initiative was described on the ballot as
only applying to nonviolent offenders. It was described as such
by the then-attorney general, Kamala Harris. In reality, it
made criminals eligible for early release who had committed
crimes like rape, human trafficking with minors, assault with a
deadly weapon, and drive-by shootings. All this was described
as nonviolent activity by the Attorney General.
So, with the passage of these measures: Prop. 47, Prop. 57,
the defunding of the police, the so-called progressive
prosecutor movement, we have seen crime go up in California.
The results speak for themselves. Just over the last five years
violent crime has gone up 15.1 percent; aggravated assault,
30.6; homicide, 9.1 percent; aggravated assault with a firearm,
62.9 percent. The violent crime rate in California is 31
percent higher than the rest of the country.
Those statistics don't even tell the full story. If you
look at San Francisco, for example, businesses are closing left
and right. In just a short span of time in the last year you
had the closure of Nordstrom, Whole Foods, T-Mobile,
Anthropologie, and Saks. The iconic toy store that this movie
``Toy Story'' was based had to close. In-N-Out had to close its
first restaurant ever citing the danger to customers and to
their workers.
If you just walk into any--many of our major cities, you
have to--if you want to go to the grocery store, you have dodge
needles, you have to wade through encampments. When you go into
the store, if you want to buy basic goods like frozen foods, or
shampoo or conditioner, you have to go get a clerk to open up
the cabinet to get it for you because everything is under lock
and key.
In Los Angeles the police have specifically told people,
warn people that you shouldn't go outside when you are wearing
jewelry. This is the reality of life in many parts of
California following this dangerous decriminalization
experiment.
The good news is this, that while Gavin Newsom says this is
a national model, while Kamala Harris says it is a role model
for the rest of the country, the people of California are
rendering a very different verdict. Those cities that defunded
their police have now refunded their police. Several of these
so-called progressive prosecutors have been recalled or are
currently being recalled or being removed from office.
There is a bipartisan initiative right now to largely
reverse Prop. 47 and end the Prop. 47 experiment in California.
It has received broad bipartisan support. I was just on a
bipartisan panel supporting it with our colleague Ami Bera. The
mayors of San Jose, San Diego, and San Francisco are supporting
this initiative even though the Governor of California Gavin
Newsom has continued to stand by Prop. 47 and fought our reform
effort every step of the way.
So, Mr. Chair, while there are some who will point to
California's crime policies as a national model, I would
encourage folks across the country to listen to the people of
California themselves who are saying very clearly this is not a
model for the Nation; it is a warning to the Nation. I believe.
Mr. Biggs. The gentleman yields back.
The Chair recognizes the gentleman from Florida, Mr. Gaetz.
Mr. Gaetz. Yes, I have questions for Mr. Ingram, but that
was a remarkable presentation from Congressman Kiley about how
things have gone in California. When I heard that they had to
close an In-N-Out and a Whole Foods, that is a broad swatch of
the constituency in California when you get both of those
establishments having to close. It is remarkable.
Mr. Ingram, so we have this dynamic now that Mr. Kiley just
laid out perfectly where you are seeing more and more crimes
not really being counted as crimes and you are seeing more and
more criminals just being let out and not really deemed part of
the criminal justice system for any meaningful period of time.
So, I want you to bring like the average American who has
heard the presentation: All the crime rates are down, we are
safer now under these policies that don't really punish people
for things like theft--but what does that actually mean on the
streets of America? What would you say to an American that
encountered that information, but it didn't jive with how they
felt?
Mr. Ingram. What I would equate it to--we see it every day
in our city where we sit right now. It's mind-boggling on how
we talk about crime. For us--again, somebody that has been in
Minnesota since 2012, the five-years we had one burglary. Now,
we've had
12-13.
Every time I get a thing from our District Attorney, it
says we've reduced the charges to under $1,000 even though it
may have cost me 20,000 to repair the building. A safe they
rolled down three flights of stairs, ripped out walls, and
ripped out staircases. We reduced it down to under $1,000 and
the person is back on the streets. He robs us again and we
reduce it down. He robs us again and we reduce it down. To me
that is the madness of it.
Recently, our breakfast restaurant called Hope--somebody
broke into it, busted out the garage door, and went into the
space. Then, we get a letter saying we've reduced the crime
down to under $1,000 where the glass on the garage door costs
more than that. To me it's when we have these--again, this
isn't a political thing for me. It's real life. This is real
humans. These are real businesses. We're having businesses
close every single day.
We're having people murdered. We have a drug dealer that
provided laced drugs with fentanyl to my partner's son. He
died. He texted him something is wrong. He said you'll be fine.
We had his address. That drug dealer to my knowledge is still
on the streets to this day.
Mr. Gaetz. Mr. Ingram, Vice President Harris filled out a
questionnaire for the ACLU when she was running for President
back in 2019, and she advocated for the position of
decriminalizing fentanyl making it where that wasn't something
where people would interface with the criminal justice system,
but would have a different path. Do you think that would make
your streets safer?
Mr. Ingram. I don't believe that will make our streets
safer. You must be held accountable for your actions. Words
don't really matter. Actions matter. We can all say--I can sit,
say whatever I want to say. Any of us can say. Actions are what
matter. What is happening every single day is what matters.
That's really what we need is commonsense to take over. If
you've been arrested 50 times in three years you shouldn't be
out to do it again.
Mr. Gaetz. Here is what I don't get, Mr. Ingram: I have
never been a prosecutor, but why would you want to become a
prosecutor to then not prosecute the criminals? That would be
like opening restaurants and not wanting to make food. That
would be like opening a bar and not wanting to make drinks.
Like do you ever get to talk to some of these folks in your
community and say, hey, I just sort of assumed that me being
the restaurateur I would run a restaurant, and you being the
prosecutors, you would prosecute the criminals? Is that too
much to ask?
Mr. Ingram. Yes, unfortunately, I just get to speak to our
first responders that show up onsite and I see the look in
their eyes, how defeated they are because they've arrested--
they know them by name. We show them the picture and they tell
us their name. They know where they live. They're so
demoralized and defeated it's--
Mr. Gaetz. Well, we don't live like this in Florida. You
don't have to live like this. Florida is ready when you are, as
a matter of fact. I do worry that these bad ideas that we have
seen emerge in some of our Democrat-run cities could spread to
other parts of the country.
In our last few seconds what would be your warning to a
community thinking about adopting these policies that reduce
theft thresholds and allow this type of conduct?
Mr. Ingram. My biggest thing, I would say love people. Love
is hard. My dad had to discipline me because I made mistakes.
Discipline sucks, but it has to happen. Love people. That
includes discipline.
Mr. Gaetz. That is terrific advice. I very much appreciate
you being here. I see my time is expired. I yield back.
Mr. Biggs. The gentleman yields back.
I now recognize myself for five minutes.
I will turn to you, Ms. Kiefer. What changes would you like
to see to ensure that victims are better protected, and
offenders are held accountable? You have a microphone button
there.
Ms. Kiefer. Yes. Prosecutors need to prosecute. People need
to be held accountable. Gun laws need to actually be enforced.
Instead of taking away guns, why don't we enforce the laws on
the books?
Mr. Biggs. So, you think that law enforcement--by enforcing
laws you would get deterrence and people are less likely to
commit the crimes?
[No response.]
Mr. Biggs. Interesting concept.
Ms. Kiefer. Crazy.
Mr. Biggs. We were just in El Salvador. We saw that. They
arrested 70,000 gang members. Now, they have the safest country
in the Western Hemisphere. It is an interesting thing down
there in El Salvador when they chose to start enforcing the
law.
Mr. Ingram, I have a question for you: When you were
talking about the first--the police come out. They know who it
is. They make the arrests. Now, the prosecutor reduces the
charges. Now, in Arizona we have something called the Victim's
Bill of Rights. If that is going to happen typically, there is
going to be consultation with the victim and say this is why or
some kind of information. Did you get that from the prosecutor
there?
Mr. Ingram. I did not. I did get a letter from an advocate
saying this is happening. We responded and said we're not in
agreement. Then we would get a letter in the mail a month or
two later that's saying here's what happened.
Mr. Biggs. So, Mr. Ingram, in Arizona we also would say we
are going to have this individual plead. You are the victim. If
you wish to make a statement or submit something to the court--
and you could come in for the sentencing. Sentencing is going
to be XYZ date. None of that had happened for you?
Mr. Ingram. That's never happened to me.
Mr. Biggs. Did that happen for you, Ms. Kiefer, in your
case?
Ms. Kiefer. To testify against--
Mr. Biggs. Yes, you testified?
[No response.]
Mr. Biggs. You actually testified? OK. Mr. Schultz, what
changes to your business--do you have a business in--
Mr. Schultz. I do not, no.
Mr. Biggs. OK.
Mr. Schultz. No.
Mr. Biggs. So, what is the crime rates doing to the
business community in Minnesota?
Mr. Schultz. So, there's a lot of ways to cut that, but
from a statistical perspective Minnesota is at its slowest
growing period in its history. We're growing incredibly slowly.
We're losing people, we're losing businesses to other States.
One of the causes of that is clearly the violent crime.
Mr. Biggs. It is an amazing thing to me. I don't know why
we got the music going. That is wild.
Here, I am going to submit for the record an article
called, ``4 Reasons We Should Worry About Missing Crime Data.''
Without objection.
So, here we go. The 2022 crime data. How many reported? Mr.
Nehls talked about it, but I want to put in an article about
this. Agency's that participated and actually reported it:
8,358. That was 44 percent of agencies. How many participated
partially? Like you said, ``it is so complex.'' Some
participated for part of it; not all of it. Another 4,400, or
about 24 percent. How many agencies didn't participate at all
including some of the Nation's largest cities? 6,097. Thirty-
two percent of all that didn't even participate. So, when you
give us statistical data based on, as my colleague was
mentioning the FBI statistics, they don't even get all the
statistics.
So, I know and I respect Mr. Ingram does as well. We need
to take the people part of it, too. As policymakers we also
look at the data, and the data is woefully inaccurate because
it is woefully incomplete. That is the reality of it.
Then, how much data did you--is analyzed to say this
number, like in our case, how many cases were dropped down and
busted down? I was a prosecutor and a defense attorney. I will
tell you that 95 percent of cases plead out. Ninety-five
percent of cases are busted down from the original charge. So,
we don't get what is being charged. We don't know how they are
breaking them down.
A cop is shot in the United States every 22 hours this
year. This year. Every 22 hours a police officer is shot. I
submit that for the record without objection.
Mr. Biggs. I submit a document called the ``Blue City
Murder Problem,'' which gets as the point I was trying to make.
What is Arizona's homicide rate when you take Phoenix out of
it? Not just all of Maricopa County, which has six million
people in it. When you take out Phoenix, the rest of Maricopa
County is pretty darn safe. That is the reality. That is the
Blue State problem again that Mr. Nehls brought up.
Then I am going to submit also for the record in my last
act here this morning--I am looking for the title of it. Here
we go. ``Violent Crime Creating Dystopian Hell Despite Biden's
Claim America is Safer.''
Without objection, that will come in.
We have no more Members to ask questions and you have
been--all of you participated and we appreciate all of your
testimony today. Thank you for being here.
With that, we are adjourned.
[Whereupon, at 11:31 a.m, the Subcommittee was adjourned.]
All materials submitted for the record by Members of the
Sub-
committee on Crime and Federal Government Surveillance can
be found at: https://docs.house.gov/Committee/Calendar/ByEvent
.aspx?EventID=117634.
[all]