[House Hearing, 118 Congress]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]
OVERSIGHT OF HOMELAND SECURITY INVESTIGATIONS
=======================================================================
HEARING
BEFORE THE
SUBCOMMITTEE ON CRIME AND FEDERAL GOVERNMENT SURVEILLANCE
OF THE
COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY
U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
ONE HUNDRED EIGHTEENTH CONGRESS
SECOND SESSION
__________
WEDNESDAY, SEPTEMBER 18, 2024
__________
Serial No. 118-99
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Printed for the use of the Committee on the Judiciary
[GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Available via: http://judiciary.house.gov
__________
U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE
56-819 WASHINGTON : 2024
COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY
JIM JORDAN, Ohio, Chair
DARRELL ISSA, California JERROLD NADLER, New York, Ranking
MATT GAETZ, Florida Member
ANDY BIGGS, Arizona ZOE LOFGREN, California
TOM McCLINTOCK, California STEVE COHEN, Tennessee
TOM TIFFANY, Wisconsin HENRY C. ``HANK'' JOHNSON, Jr.,
THOMAS MASSIE, Kentucky Georgia
CHIP ROY, Texas ADAM SCHIFF, California
DAN BISHOP, North Carolina ERIC SWALWELL, California
VICTORIA SPARTZ, Indiana TED LIEU, California
SCOTT FITZGERALD, Wisconsin PRAMILA JAYAPAL, Washington
CLIFF BENTZ, Oregon J. LUIS CORREA, California
BEN CLINE, Virginia MARY GAY SCANLON, Pennsylvania
KELLY ARMSTRONG, North Dakota JOE NEGUSE, Colorado
LANCE GOODEN, Texas LUCY McBATH, Georgia
JEFF VAN DREW, New Jersey MADELEINE DEAN, Pennsylvania
TROY NEHLS, Texas VERONICA ESCOBAR, Texas
BARRY MOORE, Alabama DEBORAH ROSS, North Carolina
KEVIN KILEY, California CORI BUSH, Missouri
HARRIET HAGEMAN, Wyoming GLENN IVEY, Maryland
NATHANIEL MORAN, Texas BECCA BALINT, Vermont
LAUREL LEE, Florida Vacancy
WESLEY HUNT, Texas
RUSSELL FRY, South Carolina
MICHAEL RULLI, Ohio
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SUBCOMMITTEE ON CRIME AND FEDERAL
GOVERNMENT SURVEILLANCE
ANDY BIGGS, Arizona, Chair
MATT GAETZ, Florida LUCY McBATH, Georgia, Ranking
TOM TIFFANY, Wisconsin Member
TROY NEHLS, Texas MADELEINE DEAN, Pennsylvania
BARRY MOORE, Alabama CORI BUSH, Missouri
KEVIN KILEY, California STEVE COHEN, Tennessee
LAUREL LEE, Florida HENRY C. ``HANK'' JOHNSON, Jr.,
RUSSELL FRY, South Carolina Georgia
Vacancy
CHRISTOPHER HIXON, Majority Staff Director
AARON HILLER, Minority Staff Director & Chief of Staff
C O N T E N T S
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Wednesday, September 18, 2024
OPENING STATEMENTS
Page
The Honorable Andy Biggs, Chair of the Subcommittee on Crime and
Federal Government Surveillance from the State of Arizona...... 1
The Honorable Lucy McBath, a Member of the Subcommittee on Crime
and Federal Government Surveillance from the State of Georgia.. 3
The Honorable Jerrold Nadler, Ranking Member of the Committee on
the Judiciary from the State of New York....................... 4
WITNESS
Katrina W. Berger, Executive Associate Director, Homeland
Security Investigations, U.S. Department of Homeland Security
Oral Testimony................................................. 6
Prepared Testimony............................................. 8
LETTERS, STATEMENTS, ETC. SUBMITTED FOR THE HEARING
All materials submitted for the record by the Subcommittee on
Crime and Federal Government Surveillance are listed below..... 37
QUESTIONS AND RESPONSES FOR THE RECORD
Questions for Katrina W. Berger, Executive Associate Director,
Homeland Security Investigations, U.S. Department of Homeland
Security, submitted by the Honorable Matt Gaetz, a Member of
the Subcommittee on Crime and Federal Government Surveillance
from the State of Florida, the Honorable Steve Cohen, a Member
of the Subcommittee on Crime and Federal Government
Surveillance from the State of Tennessee; the Honorable Henry
C. ``Hank'' Johnson, Jr., a Member of the Subcommittee on Crime
and Federal Government Surveillance from the State of Georgia;
and the Honorable Lucy McBath, a Member of the Subcommittee on
Crime and Federal Government Surveillance from the State of
Georgia, for the record
No response at the time of publication
OVERSIGHT OF HOMELAND SECURITY INVESTIGATIONS
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Wednesday, September 18, 2024
House of Representatives
Subcommittee on Crime and Federal Government Surveillance
Committee on the Judiciary
Washington, DC
The subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 10:08 a.m., in
room 2141, Rayburn House Office Building, the Hon. Andy Biggs
[Chair of the Subcommittee] presiding.
Members present: Representatives Biggs, Jordan, Gaetz,
Nehls, Moore, Lee, Fry, McBath, Nadler, Dean, Cohen, Johnson,
and Garcia.
Mr. Biggs. The Subcommittee will come to order. Without
objection, the Chair is authorized to declare a recess at any
time. We welcome everyone to today's hearing on Oversight of
Homeland Security Investigations.
The Chair now recognizes the gentlelady from Florida who
will lead us in the Pledge of Allegiance.
All. I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States
of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one
Nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for
all.
Mr. Biggs. Thank you. Without objection, Mr. Garcia will be
able to participate in today's hearing for the purposes of
questioning the witness and will receive five minutes for that
purpose.
I will now recognize myself for an opening statement. I
thank all the Members for coming today, this is an important
hearing, and I appreciate the Homeland Security Executive
Associate Director Berger for joining us today.
Today's hearing is titled ``Oversight of Homeland Security
Investigations.'' Homeland Security Investigations, HSI, is a
law enforcement agency within the Department of Homeland
Security and HSI has a broad mission and works to keep
Americans safe. HSI plays a significant role in addressing
child exploitation, both domestically and internationally. HSI
handles more than 60 percent of CSAM cases in the U.S. that
have an international nexus. In Fiscal Year 202023, HSI
initiated 6,601 child exploitation investigations and made
4,214 child exploitation-related arrests and identified and
assisted over 1,806 victims of child exploitation. The agency-
specialized units, like the Cyber Crime Center and the National
Child Victim Identification System, continue to be important in
protecting children and dismantling global child exploitation
networks.
In this Congress, this Committee has held two important
hearings on these issues. The first was a year ago this month
entitled, ``Children Are Not For Sale'' examining the threat of
exploitation of children in the U.S. and abroad. The second was
six months ago entitled, ``A Voice for the Voiceless-CSAM
Identification.'' We heard important testimony during those
hearings, and I look forward to continuing that discussion with
Executive Associate Director Berger today.
The very first hearing this Subcommittee held this Congress
was titled, ``The Fentanyl Crisis in America: Inaction is No
Longer an Option.'' Unfortunately, that statement is still true
today as it was last year when we heard the tragic stories from
the loved ones that were poisoned by those who trafficked in
fentanyl. HSI has played a pivotal role in combating fentanyl
trafficking into the country seizing over 77,000 pounds of
fentanyl in the last three fiscal years. In Fiscal Year 2023
alone, HSI seized over 41,000 pounds of fentanyl. However, in
my opinion, HSI's efforts are slowed and hampered by its lack
of Title 21 authority. Title 21 of the United States Code is
needed to independently investigate and enforce drug laws.
Apparently, only DEA and FBI have Title 21 authority. Without
it, HSI must rely on DEA approval to investigate narcotics
trafficking. These unnecessary bureaucratic steps caused delays
in investigations and hampered the success in both agencies.
HSI's efforts domestically and internationally target the
disruption of supply chains of synthetic opioids. HSI also
combats numerous other threats toward citizens in our economy,
such as preventing intellectual property theft, tackling cyber
threats, and stopping financial fraud, illegal trade, and the
sale of counterfeit goods.
It is obvious that HSI has a full plate which is why I was
concerned to hear that HSI is overburdened by its commitment to
support the U.S. Secret Service with protection duties. Make no
mistake. I am committed to ensuring that those the Secret
Service protect are fully protected so that we can avoid the
situations we have witnessed over the past two months, but we
need to do it in a way that is not interfering with other very
important law enforcement functions. HSI faces operational
challenges due to the diversion of personnel and funds to
support Secret Service operations. From 2019-2024, HSI provided
over 717,000 hours of personnel support to the Secret Service
at a cost of over $22 million in unreimbursed salaries.
According to some whistleblowers, some of the agents assigned
to protect President Trump in Butler, Pennsylvania, were HSI
agents. I am curious to know the type of training that these
protective agents that are on loan from HSI received from
Secret Service.
As I indicated, I am all for protecting our President, Vice
President, and major candidates for those offices, but that is
717,000 hours that could have been used to combat human
trafficking, interdiction of fentanyl trafficking, or stopping
the proliferation of CSAM. To that end, I have produced a
document that I am forwarding to the Speaker of the House on
ways to mitigate Secret Service's needs and look forward to his
response to that. I look forward to discussing these issues
with our witness this morning.
Also, I would inform the body that this morning's story
broke indicating that the attempted assassin, Mr. Routh, who is
now in custody, was referred to investigation by CPT to HSI and
HSI declined that investigation. I have informed the EAD of
that and look forward to this hearing discussion about that as
well.
So, with that, I yield back and recognize the Ranking
Member, Ms. McBath, for her opening statement.
Ms. McBath. Thank you, Chair Biggs, and thank you, Ms.
Berger, for being with us today.
We have a very important discussion ahead of us today and I
would like to shed light on the critical role and mission of
Homeland Security Investigations, or HSI, as we will call from
here on out, which is an integral division within the U.S.
Department of Homeland Security. HSI's nearly 9,000-person
workforce operates in the United States and abroad safeguarding
our Nation from a broad spectrum of threats that could
compromise its security safety and well-being. The primary
mission of HSI is to investigate and combat threats that
undermine the safety and the stability of the United States.
This mandate encompasses a wide array of responsibility,
reflecting the diverse nature of the threats we face in our
interconnected world.
HSI's work is crucial in maintaining national security and
upholding the rule of law. HSI plays a vital role in preventing
terrorist activities. Through robust investigations and
intelligence gathering, HSI works to identify and disrupt
terrorist plots before they even materialize. Their efforts
include analyzing threats, investigating links between
extremist groups, and coordinating with other agencies to
thwart potential attacks, and the agency also ensures
compliance with immigration law. This involves investigating
unlawful activities like human trafficking, document fraud, and
the illegal employment of undocumented individuals. By
enforcing these laws, HSI helps maintain the integrity of our
immigration system.
In an increasingly digital world, HSI is at the forefront
of tackling cyber-crime. They investigate complex cyber threats
including online fraud, identity theft, and the illegal
distribution of contraband. Their work is crucial in protecting
individuals and businesses from financial losses and data
breaches. Special agents also address crimes that cross
international borders such as drug trafficking, organized
crime, and money laundering. By disrupting these transnational
criminal networks, HSI helps mitigate the impact of these
illicit activities on communities nationwide and globally.
Just as protecting children is a top priority for me, it is
also a top priority for HSI. Their investigations target those
involved in child exploitation including online predators,
producers, distributors, and consumers of child sexual abuse
material and human traffickers. By rescuing victims and
prosecuting their offenders, HSI strives to ensure the safety
and dignity of the most vulnerable among us. HSI's
collaborative approach improves its effectiveness. The agency
works closely with other Federal, State, local, and
international partners to address complex and evolving threats.
This collaboration extends to leveraging advanced technology
and data analysis and analytics to enhance investigative
capabilities and operational efficiency. For example,
investigators routinely partner with the National Center for
Missing and Exploited Children to help identify and rescue
sexually exploited children based largely on information that
is extracted from images or videos found online. The technology
used by purveyors of child sexual abuse material continues to
evolve, leaving our children at even greater risk of harm.
Atlanta, which I represent, for example, is one of the 14
States with the highest rates of children used in sex
trafficking and ranks just second in the country for the
highest rate of human trafficking. Our children are our future
and represent one of the most vulnerable populations. We must
protect them and do everything in our power to ensure that they
are safe and looked after. That is why I was so pleased that my
bill, the End Child Exploitation Act, became law just recently.
That law extends the period that technology companies must
securely store information about child sexual abuse images that
they report to NCMEC. To give law enforcement, including HSI
agents and their investigative partners, a greater chance of
rescuing and bringing home our missing and exploited children.
HSI is pivotal to our national security. The agency tackles
diverse threats with broad and unique investigative and
enforcement authority, which requires Congress to ensure proper
guardrails to provide effective oversight.
Given the sensitive nature of their work and the potential
for abuse of power, HSI must operate with a high level of
accountability and oversight. Only to a commitment to prevent
overreach, protect civil liberties and promote accountability,
transparency, and effective oversight can HSI maintain the
trust and confidence of the public and truly carry out its
central mission.
Today's conversation should focus on what more Congress can
do to make sure that this agency has what it needs to fulfill
the crucial role in keeping us all safe. I am here today to
find solutions and ensure that HSI has the tools that it needs
to be successful and to keep us all protected.
I look forward to what you have to say, Director, I really
do. Thank you so much and I look forward to all of us
supporting HSI and I yield back.
Ms. Lee. [Presiding.] The gentlelady yields back. I now
recognize the Chair of the Full Committee, Mr. Jordan, for his
opening statement.
Chair Jordan. I thank the Chair. I don't have an opening
statement. I just want to thank the Director for being here and
for the work that your agency does, and I yield back.
Ms. Lee. I now recognize the Ranking Member of the Full
Committee, Mr. Nadler, for his opening statement.
Mr. Nadler. Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, Homeland
Security Investigations, or HSI, is a vital component of the
Department of Homeland Security, responsible for conducting a
wide range of investigations related to national security,
border security, transnational crime, child exploitation, human
trafficking, smuggling, and other threats to the homeland. The
daily work of HSI agents involves conducting complex
investigations, gathering intelligence, and collaborating with
domestic and international partners to disrupt criminal
networks and prevent potential threats to national security and
public safety.
One of the key features of HSI is its broad authority to
use various tools and strategies to protect the country from
terrorist attacks, cyber threats, natural disasters, and other
risks. HSI agents have the authority to arrest individuals,
seize assets, and execute search warrants in pursuit of their
mission to safeguard the Nation from a variety of threats. This
authority necessarily enables robust intelligence gathering and
analysis, supports border security, and provide for the
critical protection of our online infrastructure.
With this broad authority, however, comes the need for
accountability and oversight to ensure that HSI and its partner
agencies are acting in accordance with the law and with respect
for our civil liberties. The HSI efforts with its emphasis on
urgency and sometimes secrecy can sometimes lead to abuses of
power or violations of individual rights. The potential for
abuse is multiplied with the introduction of new technology
such as artificial intelligence, face recognition, and even
cellular stingrays.
Therefore, it is essential to have robust oversight
mechanisms in place including congressional hearings like this
one, independent audits and judicial review to provide
transparency and accountability and to safeguard against abuses
of power. I hope that today's conversation includes a
discussion of measures HSI has in place to ensure both
transparency and accountability which are crucial to
maintaining public trust in the agency, protecting against the
erosion of civil liberties in the name of national security,
and ensuring that HSI's efforts are effective and proportionate
to the threats it seeks to address. By promoting a culture of
accountability and oversight, we can strike the right balance
between protecting national security and our communities while
safeguarding individual freedoms in a democratic society.
I am also interested to hear about HSI's recent efforts to
gain Title 21 authority which would give agents the power to
enforce drug-related laws like those enforced by the Drug
Enforcement Administration, or DEA. While some have argued that
this is good policy, I remain somewhat skeptical. Granting HSI
Title 21 authority could create jurisdictional conflicts,
operational challenges, and redundancies in efforts,
potentially leading to confusion, inefficiencies, and
complications in the execution of drug-related investigations.
The existing framework of collaboration and coordination
between HSI and DEA, along with other law enforcement partners,
has largely proven effective in destructing drug-trafficking
networks, dismantling criminal organizations, and protecting
communities from the harmful effects of illicit drugs. I am not
convinced that extending HSI's authority in this regard is
necessary or wise, but I expect that Associate Executive Berger
might have a different opinion which I am interested in
hearing.
Considering the broad mandate under which HSI operates, I
am also eager to hear what Congress can do to leverage the
strengths of the agency and to ensure that it has the tools it
needs to fulfill its mission of protecting the homeland and all
Americans against the wide range of threats we face both seen
and unseen.
Ms. Berger, I thank you for appearing here today and I look
forward to your testimony. Thank you and I yield back.
Ms. Lee. Without objection, all other openings statements
will be included in the record. We will now introduce today's
witness, Ms. Katrina Berger.
Ms. Berger is the Executive Associate Director of Homeland
Security Investigations, a role she has held since July 2023.
She previously served as a Special Agent in Charge of HSI's
Atlanta, Georgia office and has served for more than 25 years
in law enforcement. We welcome our witness and thank her
appearing today.
We will begin by swearing you in. Would you please rise and
raise your right hand?
Do you swear or affirm under penalty of perjury that the
testimony you are about to give is true and correct to the best
of your knowledge, information, and belief so help you God?
Let the record reflect that the witness has answered in the
affirmative. Thank you.
Please know that your written testimony will be entered
into the record in its entirety. Accordingly, we ask that you
summarize your testimony.
Ms. Berger, you may begin.
STATEMENT OF KATRINA BERGER
Ms. Berger. Thank you, Chair Biggs, Ranking Member McBath,
and distinguished Members of this Committee, on behalf of HSI,
I wish to express our condolences on the passing of Ranking
Member Jackson Lee. As a Special Agent in Charge in our Dallas,
Texas office, I had the opportunity to meet with her on several
occasions. She served our Nation and the State of Texas as a
dedicated Member of this Committee.
Thank you for this opportunity to appear before you today
and to discuss the tireless efforts that the men and women of
HSI perform to safeguard our Nation's security, public health,
and economy by identifying, disrupting, and dismantling
transnational poly-criminal organizations. I am truly humbled
to represent their exemplary service to this Nation.
I am a career special agent and currently serve as the
Executive Associate Director of HSI. In this role, I lead 8,700
employees including over 7,000 special agents assigned to 235
domestic field offices and 93 international offices in 56
countries. I also oversee our nine headquarters divisions, 11
specialized national centers, and the administration of our
$2.4 billion annual budget.
HSI was formed with the creation of the Department of
Homeland Security with a merger of the investigative components
of the legacy U.S. Customs and Immigration and Naturalization
Services and is the largest criminal investigative components
of DHS, empowered with broad, legal authority to conduct
Federal criminal investigations into the illegal cross border
movement of people and merchandise to include goods, money,
technology, and other contraband.
HSI uses this broad authority to successfully investigate a
wide array of transnational crimes to include national security
threats, narcotics and contraband smuggling, transnational
criminal gang activity, child exploitation, human smuggling,
human trafficking, illegal export of weapons and controlled
technology, money laundering, financial fraud, cyber and cyber
financial crimes, intellectual property theft, trade fraud,
identity and benefit fraud, and human rights violations
including war crimes.
HSI special agents collect evidence in furtherance of
criminal prosecutions which result in the conviction of
individuals and a dismantlement of organizations which would
exploit our Nation's borders and threaten the public safety.
HSI's international presence is the largest within DHS and
enables HSI investigations to reach far beyond our national
borders. HSI's cadre of internationally assigned special
agents, criminal agents, and mission support personnel work
alongside locally employed staff and foreign law enforcement,
customs and immigration partners to advance HSI's
investigations and the DHS mission around the world.
HSI also leads eight national whole of government centers
combating transnational crime including the Angel Watch Center
which partners with the U.S. Marshals and CBP to use flight
data to identify and alert foreign law enforcement of the
international travel plans of registered sex offenders; the DHS
Center for Counter and Human Trafficking which provides
investigative support and training as well as services to
trafficking victims; the Cross-Border Financial Crime Center
which leverages HCI's expertise and money laundering and
financial crimes investigations with industry experts and
foreign partners to identify the illicit movement of money
worldwide; the DHS Cyber Crime Center or C3, which supports
among other programmatic areas investigations into the
productive and distribution of child sexual abuse material and
technical forensic support to cyber-enabled crimes; the Export
Enforcement Coordination Center or E2C2, in partnership with
DOJ and Commerce which coordinates and supports investigations
into the illegal exports of controlled technologies; the Human
Rights Violators and War Crimes Center, which ensures
individuals who commit atrocities worldwide are unable to flee
and seek refuge within the United States; the National Bulk
Cash Smuggling Center, which assists our domestic and
international law enforcement partners in interdicting and
investigating the illicit movement of bulk cash; and finally,
the National Intellectual Property Rights Coordination Center,
which is world-renowned for its expertise and effectiveness in
combatting intellectual property rights violations.
In addition to investigations and results produced by our
agents, HSI continues to serve as a lead component in DHS'
overarching mission protecting the homeland. This commitment to
supporting fellow DHS components can be best illustrated
through HSI's continued support to the Secret Service, CBP, and
others. For example, between 2019-2024, HSI special agents have
worked more than 700,000 hours in support of the Secret
Service's essential protection mission. I would once again like
to recognize the true strength of HSI, its workforce, who
remain vigilant in their efforts to protect our Nation from
ever-evolving threats.
Chair Biggs, Ranking Member McBath, esteemed Members of the
Committee, I look forward to answering your questions regarding
the amazing work being done by HSI to safeguard our Nation.
[The prepared statement of Ms. Berger follows:]
[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Ms. Lee. Thank you, Ms. Berger. We will now proceed under
the five-minute rule with questions. I begin by recognizing
myself for five minutes.
I would like to take a moment and commend HSI for Operation
Boiling Point, DHS's response to organized retail crime. By
partnering with groups such as the National Retail Federation
and Coalition of Law Enforcement and Retail CLEAR, HSI has been
able to bridge the gap between public and private information
sharing and best practices to ultimately stop organized theft
groups. HSI has spoken publicly in the past about connections
between organized retail crime and domestic and transnational
criminal organizations including groups engaged in human
trafficking.
Director Berger, have recent investigations found those
types of connections?
Ms. Berger. Thank you for that question. Much of the work
that we encounter, transnational criminal organizations, all
organized crime has turned into poly-criminal organizations
that are involved not in just in one type of violation, but
multiple crimes that affect our communities. Organized crime
people may see organized crime and not think that it is very
serious, but these groups are laundering money, they are
involved in human trafficking, human smuggling, and various
ways to further the criminal business and criminal enterprises.
Ms. Lee. Does HSI coordinate with State and local law
enforcement in pursuit of this type of organized theft group
and if so, how?
Ms. Berger. Thank you for letting me elaborate on that. We
definitely do. We collaborate on all levels with Federal,
local, State partners, with industry to investigate leads. We
accept tips, leads to further investigate these types of
crimes. We do outreach with industry as well, so that they
recognize some of the factors of things that they need to
report if they see suspicious activity.
Ms. Lee. If you would, share with us why you believe it is
important, assuming that you do, that HSI and other Federal
agencies with multijurisdictional authority have a role in
investigating and prosecuting organized retail theft?
Ms. Berger. Thank you for letting me elaborate a little bit
further. Again, it is not just the organized retail theft, it
is all the associated crimes that these poly-criminal
organizations are involved with that are impacting our
communities. They can be involved with--they are involved with
illicit financial schemes, money laundering, human trafficking,
human smuggling, and Chinese money laundering operations. There
is a whole plethora of violations and criminal activity that
they are involved with that are putting our communities at
risk.
Ms. Lee. On that subject of human trafficking, I would like
to turn your attention to the work that HSI does in combating
child exploitation and cyber-crimes, specifically, the use of
the Cyber Crimes Center, or C3. Would you please elaborate for
us on C3, what it is, and how it operates?
Ms. Berger. The C3, the Department's Cyber Crime Center is
an HSI-led Cyber Crime Center focusing on crimes and internet-
facilitated crimes. One of our flagship programs is our work in
the child exploitation area. We actively investigate and
prosecute individuals and organizations that are involved with
the production and distribution of child exploitation material.
We take this very seriously. This is a global problem, far
reaching. We work with our international partners to help
protect not only child victims in this country, but child
victims around the world.
Ms. Lee. In that work, do you also partner with the
National Center for Missing and Exploited Children?
Ms. Berger. Yes, ma'am. We do. NCMEC, the National Center
for Missing and Exploited Children, is a fabulous partner. We
have personnel embedded with them. Tim Tebow of the Tim Tebow
Foundation is also a phenomenal partner and provides us with a
lot of support, especially in being able to bring experts in
the field from some of our foreign partner organizations and
partner law enforcement in different countries to come and help
identify and rescue victims through Operation Renewed Hope.
Ms. Lee. Actually, Operation Renewed Hope recently
demonstrated an incredibly successful effort, a partnership
between HSI and NCMEC, the Tebow Foundation, and those partners
you referenced. Would you tell us a little bit more about that
operation and if you had additional resources and HSI agents
working on that, is it something that you believe would be a
successful effort in increasing the number of children who are
rescued?
Ms. Berger. Yes, ma'am. It definitely would. Certainly, we
can always do more when we have more, either in terms of
staffing or funding. There is a lot that we can do with
technology, a lot of technology out there that we can really
further the identification investigating child victims.
Ms. Lee. Thank you, Ms. Berger. I now recognize the
gentlewoman from Georgia, the Ranking Member, Ms. McBath.
Ms. McBath. Thank you so much.
Ms. Berger, it has become a practice for Federal agencies
to work with local law enforcement, as you have mentioned
today, to deliver assistance and partner on various efforts to
track criminals, close cases, and share information. What
specific initiatives or partnerships has HSI established in
Atlanta, which I represent, to combat child sex trafficking?
Ms. Berger. Thank you for that question, ma'am. Atlanta,
being former Special Agent in Charge there, and I maintain my
residence there, is very near and dear to my heart.
We partner with Secret Service and State and local agencies
through the ICAC, the Internet Crimes Against--the Internet--
ICAC--I'm sorry, I'm stumbling; forgive me--to identify risks
for children out there. We do a lot of outreach, with our
Know2Protect campaign and our iGuardian campaign to educate
children at all ages, minors, young children, teens, tweens, as
to internet safety; parents, teachers, trusted partners, or
trusted adults. So that if children are being preyed on, if
they communicating with an adult online and they are requested
to provide inappropriate pictures, that they know to come
forward; they know that there's adults out there that they can
talk with. It's a conversation that many people don't want to
have, but we really need to be protecting our children in this
fight against online predators.
Ms. McBath. Thank you. So, what specific challenges and
gaps has HSI encountered in its current approach to tackling
child and sex trafficking; specifically, in Atlanta?
Ms. Berger. Sorry, I'm struggling with the mic.
We work very closely with all the partners. We can always
do more with more resources, but we work very collaboratively
with our partners in this area, with NGO's, with the law
enforcement partners, with the communities, and with the
schools.
The more outreach we do, the more opportunities we're able
to get in front of vulnerable communities, so they can hear our
message, the better. I think ICE branding. Certainly, being
able to have HSI standalone branding which separates us from--
it doesn't separate us but lets us independently brand
ourselves as HSI. We're able to reach communities such as
immigrant communities that would otherwise not want to really
talk to us or hear our message because of our affiliation and
our association with ICE.
Ms. McBath. Thank you for that.
So, what you just described for us are ways in which HSI is
overcoming these challenges, so that you can improve the
effectiveness of combating crime specifically in Georgia. I
represent a district now that a large proportion of the people
in my district are immigrants who have come from outside of the
United States. So, I want to keep an eye and focus on making
sure that I protect their interests as well. So, thank you for
that.
What is the agency doing to evaluate, and also, refine
strategies, address resource limitations, and to adapt to the
emerging trafficking trends that keep growing day by day?
Ms. Berger. We are very involved with emerging threats.
Atlanta, as you are well aware is a hub. It is a major transit
area for various transportation routes. Large cities, large
metropolitan areas are often a prime area for human trafficking
activities to take place.
We continue to do significant outreach with industries such
as hotels, hotel staff, service/hospitality industry, so that
they recognize human trafficking efforts when they sense this
when they see it.
I think many of us over the last couple of years have
noticed an increased signage in airports and restaurants. Under
our Blue Campaign public awareness, if you see something, to
come forward, recognizing the indicators of human trafficking
and knowing what to do.
Ms. McBath. I just want to say, I can remember when I was a
flight attendant, I can remember now, I recognize what it was;
I did not know at the time. There would be many young women
that would be put on the aircraft coming from either Texas, or
New Mexico, or Arizona. They would get onboard the aircraft and
they would sit very quietly, and they wouldn't answer any
questions. They wouldn't say anything. The minute they would
get off the aircraft, they would scatter into the bathrooms and
scatter throughout the airport. So now, I'm recognizing that
those were individuals that, some of them, I'm sure were
trafficked.
So, thank you very much for the work that you are doing,
because I have actually seen that in action.
I yield back.
Ms. Lee. The gentlelady yields back.
The Chair now recognizes the Chair of the Full Committee,
the gentleman from Ohio, for five minutes, Mr. Jordan.
Chair Jordan. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Director, who is Kevin Rojek?
Ms. Berger. I'm sorry, sir, could you say--
Chair Jordan. Kevin Rojek, R-o-j-e-k.
Ms. Berger. I'm sorry, sir, I don't recognize the name.
Chair Jordan. Well, he is the Special Agent in Charge at
the FBI Pittsburgh office looking into the assassination
attempt on President Trump that took place in Butler,
Pennsylvania. My understanding is HSI had a number of agents at
Butler at that particular day. Is that accurate?
Ms. Berger. Yes, sir, that's correct. We had 16 agents,
special agents, assigned to the Butler farm, and farm rally.
Chair Jordan. You had 16 of your people there?
Ms. Berger. Sixteen.
Chair Jordan. Yes.
Ms. Berger. One to six.
Chair Jordan. Do you know how many Secret Service agents
were there that day?
Ms. Berger. No, sir, I don't.
Chair Jordan. You had 16 of your agents supplementing and
helping with the security of President Trump on July 13th in
Butler, Pennsylvania?
Ms. Berger. We provided support to Secret Service as
collateral law enforcement support. We were not in a position
where we were directly protecting the principal. We would
never, as HSI agents, be assigned to that position.
Chair Jordan. I understand. You were helping out that day?
Ms. Berger. Yes, sir.
Chair Jordan. The guy who is doing the investigation
looking into what took place where President Trump was hit by a
bullet from the assassin, and another American was killed, and
two other Americans were injured, the guy who is in charge of
that investigation has not talked to you, even though 16 of
your agents were there that day?
Ms. Berger. No, sir.
Chair Jordan. You don't even know Kevin Rojek, never heard
of him?
Ms. Berger. I haven't. I can tell you that Monday, after
the assassination attempt in West Palm Beach, I reached out to
Acting Deputy Director Vince Tutoni, who was in West Palm or
the vicinity at the time, had gone down. I did speak to him on,
on Monday to further--
Chair Jordan. You reached out?
Ms. Berger. I reached out to him, sir.
Chair Jordan. Do you know who Jeffrey Beltre is?
Ms. Berger. No, sir.
Chair Jordan. OK. He is the guy in Miami who works for the
FBI who is overseeing what took place Sunday, the second
assassination attempt on President Trump. You have not talked
to him?
Ms. Berger. No, sir.
Chair Jordan. You have actively reached out. Who is the
individual you spoke to in Miami? He works for HSI?
Ms. Berger. No. Vince Tutoni, he's the Acting Deputy
Director for Secret Service.
Chair Jordan. For Secret Service? OK.
Ms. Berger. I will say, if I may--
Chair Jordan. Uh-hum.
Ms. Berger. --certainly, with an incident like this, they
are very, certainly, very busy. I did not take any offense that
they did not reach out to me.
Chair Jordan. Even though it has been two months, since the
guy in Butler, that's two months ago? The guy running the
investigation has not reached out to the individual in charge
of the 16 agents who were there and who were supposed to be
helping supplement the protection of the President, former
President?
Ms. Berger. It's something, our support to Secret Service
is something ongoing that we do all the time. It's baked into
our mission. We've done this historically--
Chair Jordan. Did you have agents in Miami on Sunday
working on President Trump's detail or helping supplement his
Secret Service detail?
Ms. Berger. Yes, sir, we had four.
Chair Jordan. You had four?
Ms. Berger. We had four. Two were on shift and two were on
shift, not in the immediate vicinity. Two were not on shift at
the time of the event.
Chair Jordan. So, you had agents at both of the
assassinations attempts on the former President, and the
individuals at the FBI conducting the investigations have not
talked to you? In one case, that's been over two months ago.
Ms. Berger. Correct.
Chair Jordan. That's your testimony today? Is that
accurate?
Ms. Berger. Correct.
Chair Jordan. I find that troubling. I find that troubling.
Let's switch here for a second. What type of training do
your agents receive before they--well, let me ask this: How
long has HSI been supplementing the Secret Service and giving
agents to help the Secret Service in their duties?
Ms. Berger. Sir, thank you for that question.
Certainly, back to our time when we were U.S. Customs
Service agents with Secret Service under the Department of
Treasury. I don't have the exact date, but this is,
historically, something that we have supported Secret Service.
I personally--
Chair Jordan. It's fairly common, you are saying?
Ms. Berger. Yes.
Chair Jordan. OK. Is it common to have that many agents at
an event with the former President? Was that unusual or is 16
kind of normal? Or do you sometimes have more; sometimes--what
is kind of normal?
Ms. Berger. It varies, based on the need and the situation.
Chair Jordan. Is it ongoing? Does President Trump always
have some HSI people with him now when he is traveling or even,
it looks like, when he is at his residence in Florida?
Ms. Berger. We provide support to Secret Service, and then,
they assign our personnel as needed.
Chair Jordan. OK. OK.
Madam Chair, I just find it kind of astonishing that the
people doing the investigation haven't talked to the individual
who is in charge of so many of these agents, who have been
supplementing President Trump's security detail. Maybe that's
why it is good that, in the case of what happened on Sunday,
Governor DeSantis is actually doing his own investigation.
Maybe that will be done a little bit better.
With that, I yield back to the Chair of the Committee.
Mr. Biggs. [Presiding.] Will you yield to me a moment, just
a moment?
Chair Jordan. Yes, I'll yield. You've got the last--
Mr. Biggs. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Director, my question is, the U.N. General Assembly is
going this week and next week. Do you have HSI agents
supporting protective duty there as well?
Ms. Berger. I'm sorry, for UNGA, for U.N. General Assembly?
Mr. Biggs. For UNGA, yes.
Ms. Berger. Yes, sir, we do. We have around 1,200 agents
supporting the U.N. General Assembly.
Mr. Biggs. Twelve hundred? What percentage of the entire
complement of agents that you have is supporting UNGA right
now?
Ms. Berger. We have around--my math isn't great--around
7,000-7,600 agents. So, we have about 1,200 supporting UNGA.
Mr. Biggs. So, it is about 18 percent, something like that
maybe?
Ms. Berger. It's a significant number of agents.
Mr. Biggs. Thank you.
Thank you for yielding to me, Mr. Chair.
Mr. Nadler is recognized for his five minutes of questions.
Mr. Nadler. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Ms. Berger, as I noted in my opening statement, I'm
somewhat skeptical of the proposal to grant Title 21 authority
to HSI, but I want to give you the opportunity to make the case
for why it is necessary and appropriate. In your opinion, what
specific limitations or challenges does HSI face in drug
enforcement without Title 21 authority, and how does this lack
of authority impact the effectiveness of HSI's operations in
this area?
Ms. Berger. The way drug cartels and TCOs operate has
changed dramatically over the last decade. These are no longer
single-scope violators. They are poly-criminal organizations
that are involved in many different times, types of crime.
HSI, as an agency that investigates poly-criminal activity,
is well-poised and well-positioned to attack these criminal,
poly-criminal organizations on all aspects of their criminal
activity. For instance, if one of the limitations we face right
now, if we're working, if HSI is working a human smuggling
case, and they discover that the organization is also involved
in narcotics smuggling, we have to pause our investigation--
really not pause--we have to stop our investigation and take
time to complete other administrative tasks with DEA.
We totally lose the momentum on the case. Oftentimes, we
may lose evidence. We may lose the opportunity to identify
witnesses; use cooperating defendants; execute controlled
deliveries to identify more violators that are involved in
these sorts of activities; rescue victims. It really slows us
down tremendously and affects these cases in a very negative
way.
Mr. Nadler. Thank you.
If granted Title 21 authority, how would HSI avoid
conflicts with DEA investigations?
Ms. Berger. DEA is a great partner. We have collaborated,
traditionally, historically, over the years, and many of our
very best cases against the cartels and TCOs have been worked
jointly and collaboratively with DEA.
We deconflict regularly with DEA. The deconfliction would
not stop. I envision we would continue to work collectively and
collaboratively against these organizations that are bringing
fentanyl into our communities and killing our friends, family
members, and other community members.
Mr. Nadler. My next question, you may have just answered.
That is, how would you minimize redundancies and inefficiencies
created by giving overlapping authority to multiple agencies?
Ms. Berger. Sir, thank you for the question.
It may look like there are redundancies and there are some
redundancies, but we all bring very unique authorities to the
table. All the agencies have different authorities and
different expertise.
Our history as a U.S. Customs Service agency, and our work
with our foreign partners, international presence, expertise
with the supply chain, and with our collaboration with CBP,
really gives us the unique abilities to attack this problem at
all parts of the supply chain.
It wouldn't really be redundant. We would really be
leveraging all our joint, very unique, and distinct expertise
to bring so much additional effort and fight against these
cartels.
Title 21 would bring, it does easily bring 10,000 trained
law enforcement professionals between my HSI criminal
investigators and our task force officers, immediately, 10,000
more trained law enforcement professionals to the fight against
fentanyl, at no cost to the U.S. Government or the American
people.
Mr. Nadler. No cost? What additional resources or support
would be necessary for HSI to effectively exercise Title 21
authority, and how would HSI plan to manage these resources
effectively?
Ms. Berger. I'm sorry, sir?
Mr. Nadler. What additional resources or support would be
necessary for HSI to effectively exercise Title 21 authority,
and how would HSI plan to manage these resources effectively?
Ms. Berger. We wouldn't need any additional resources to
execute this. Certainly, there would be some minimal training
that may be involved. I don't see it being extensive.
Mr. Nadler. OK. My last question, I also discussed in my
opening statement the need for greater transparency and
accountability to HSI. We know that the Attorney General's
guidelines for domestic FBI operations govern the FBI's
investigative authorities. Has HSI developed similar guidelines
for its agencies? If not, why not, and are there plans to do
so? What specific oversight mechanisms are in place to ensure
that HSI's broad authority is exercised within the bounds of
the law? How are these monitored, these mechanisms monitored
and enforced? So, that's really like two questions.
Mr. Biggs. The gentleman's time is expired, but you may
answer the question, please.
Ms. Berger. Certainly, any authorities that we have and any
technologies that we utilize, we are very concerned with
preserving constitutional protections, civil liberties, and
civil rights.
I was a public defender prior to being hired on as a
special agent. I am very, very well aware of the rights of the
community, the accused, and it's certainly something that's in
the forefront of everything that we do, and we're certainly
very transparent.
Mr. Nadler. My question was; has HSI developed similar
guidelines for its agents, similar to the Attorney General's
guidelines for domestic FBI operations?
Mr. Biggs. The gentleman's time has expired.
The Chair recognizes the gentleman from Florida, Mr. Gaetz.
Mr. Gaetz. Thanks for being here.
You had 16 people at Butler. My question is, did they
participate in a morning muster meeting that day of the
attempted assassination?
Ms. Berger. Thank you for the question. I would have to
defer any questions as to the on-the-ground operational
activity in Butler to the Secret Service.
Mr. Gaetz. I'm asking about your people. Because the
problem we're having, and Republicans and Democrats have noted,
is we are not getting really forthright answers from the Secret
Service in a timely way. Your agents, you had 16 people there
and those people either participated in a morning muster
meeting, which is the protocol to make sure everyone's on the
same page, has the same coms, that all the duties are correctly
assigned, and prepared to be executed.
So, can you get back to the Committee with just a yes or no
on whether or not they participated in that in that morning?
Ms. Berger. Yes.
Mr. Gaetz. OK. Good. Great.
Mr. Gaetz. I now want to talk about Ryan Routh. Ryan Routh
is the person who attempted to assassinate President Trump at
his golf club in Florida. Was Ryan Routh ever referred to HSI
for further investigation of his activities?
Ms. Berger. Thank you for the question, sir.
I recently, just this morning, learned there was an article
that he was, when he entered back into the country from
overseas, CBP had contacted HSI, and I read all of the items,
the things that he was stating, and basically, as a U.S.
citizen returning to our country from Ukraine as a freedom
fighter.
Based on the information that I read, there would not have
been any reason to immediately take him into custody. He had
not made any threats, for instance, against the President or
former President Trump.
We respond, HSI responds, to port-of-entry calls, hundreds
and hundreds of responses probably, daily. Just because a
person isn't taken into custody immediately doesn't mean that
they are not subject to a longer-term investigation.
Mr. Gaetz. You can confirm just the news reporting that the
suspected Trump attempted assassin was flagged by CBP and was
referred to HSI? Can you confirm that?
Ms. Berger. Yes.
Mr. Gaetz. Yes. OK. So, it was kind of a crazy story. So,
is it legal for someone to go recruit for a foreign military?
Does that break any laws?
Ms. Berger. I don't know, sir. I would have to look into
that a little bit further.
Mr. Gaetz. Me, too, frankly. If recruiting for a foreign
military was somehow improper, then that would necessitate some
need for investigation, I would think.
Here's the story that CBP picked up when they referred it
to HSI: They say in their memo,
Suspect is a U.S. citizen who traveled to Kyiv, Ukraine, for
three months to help recruit soldiers from Afghanistan,
Moldova, and Taiwan to fight in the Ukrainian war against
Russia. Subject stated that he does not get paid for his
recruiting efforts and all his work for the Ukrainian
government is strictly volunteer work. The subject stated that
he obtains money from his wife to help fund his trips to
Ukraine.
So, when this guy shows up with a business card, and the
story about how he's recruiting fighters in Ukraine and his
wife's paying for it, CBP says this is a little odd, and then,
they send it to HSI. HSI declines to further investigate.
What you're saying is you think, based on the facts that
you're aware of now, that was the right decision by HSI?
Ms. Berger. No, if I may, sir, the statements that day
would not rise to the level to take him into immediate custody.
Mr. Gaetz. What about just like to investigate? Because
sometimes investigations proceed without a subject being taken
into custody.
Ms. Berger. These are longer-term investigations. We are
actively participating with Secret Service and FBI, in fact--
Mr. Gaetz. No, no, I'm talking about at this point in time,
though. Here's what you've got to answer for me: When CBP
refers this to HSI, what I believe happened is HSI declined,
not only to incarcerate this person, but to further investigate
the person. Are you saying that they declined to investigate or
that that investigation went forward, and the attempted
assassination occurred during the pendency of that
investigation?
Ms. Berger. I would have to look into that a little bit
further, sir. I'll get back to you on that.
Mr. Gaetz. Yes, I think that's going to be a really
important second thing for you to get back to us on, is whether
or not HSI made an active decision in real time to decline
further investigation of this person.
Frankly, this isn't someone who was jaywalking. He tried to
kill the leading, they tried to kill the leading Republican
candidate for President and the former President of the United
States. So, I really think it's important to get those answers.
Mr. Gaetz. I thank you for being here. Thank you for all
the good work of your agency.
I yield back.
Mr. Biggs. Thank you. Thank you. The gentleman yields back.
I now, for just a moment of housekeeping, yield a minute to
the Ranking Member of the whole Committee, Mr. Nadler, for just
one moment.
Mr. Nadler. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Mr. Chair, I just want to note the presence and welcome the
newest Member of the Subcommittee, Chuy Garcia of Chicago.
Tomorrow, at the Full Committee markup, I will have a more
formal and more fulsome introduction.
Mr. Biggs. Thank you, Mr. Nadler. Welcome, Representative
Garcia.
The Chair now recognizes Representative Dean for her five
minutes.
Ms. Dean. Thank you, Chair Biggs, Ranking Member McBath,
for holding this important hearing. Welcome, Chuy.
Director Berger, I hope you will convey my thanks to the
more than 10,000 employees who you oversee and who are on the
front lines of critical issues that you have been discussing,
we have been discussing, like drug trafficking, child sexual
exploitation, national security--just to name a few.
It is September. It is Recovery Month. I have a son who is
more than 11 years in recovery, and yet, I have friends who
have lost sons and daughters to fentanyl poisoning, to
overdose.
The crisis is extraordinary. I want to know from you, from
the front lines, what you are seeing. We know that, for
example, last year more than 80,000 people died of opioid
overdose; more than 108,000 people died of drug overdose, but
80,000 of opioid overdose. That is almost twice the number of
people who die in car crashes in a single year. It's a
staggering number.
So, on the issue of fentanyl and drug trafficking, how does
HSI engage with communities and stakeholders affected by drug
trafficking? How do you measure success around the seizure and
the reduction of fentanyl coming into our communities?
Ms. Berger. Thank you for the question.
I agree, hundreds of thousands of people are dying and it's
an epidemic that HSI is, brings a lot of our authorities to
that fight against the fentanyl epidemic.
We work with communities. We work with locally, with our
BEST, our Border Enforcement Security Task Forces; with State,
local, Tribal officials, to further investigations into the
criminal organizations that are bringing this poison into our
communities.
We work beyond our borders with our attache offices and our
Transnational Criminal Investigative Units in other countries
to start targeting shipments of precursor chemicals and
fentanyl-producing equipment, such as pill presses that are
exported predominantly from China into Mexico. We have TCIUs
that work, Transnational Criminal Investigative Units, vetted
foreign law enforcement partners that work closely with our
personnel and our attaches' office to--
Ms. Dean. Can I ask you about the precursor chemicals and
the pill presses coming largely from China? Isn't it true that
many of those touch down in the United States before going to
airports in the United States before going to Mexico?
Ms. Berger. Yes, ma'am, and we are working with CBP to
target those shipments and seize both the equipment and the
precursor chemicals. We work as well with our industry
partners, companies that import the precursor chemicals, our
Know Your Partner campaign, so that they know to recognize any
anomalies in shipments or importers, and that things just don't
look right. So that they know to report those instances to law
enforcement.
Also, it helps us to see trends, like what's really going
on? If there are shifts in trends, we are better able to
devise/investigate the strategies to attack.
Ms. Dean. Can you identify a success? So that people,
families who are worried about this, like my own--what
successes are you having and what challenges are you having?
Ms. Berger. We continue to seize a great deal of fentanyl
and precursor chemicals and equipment, and the fentanyl-making
equipment. Our seizures have gone up increasingly over the last
several years.
We've increased the number of our Border Enforcement
Security Task Forces to better combat this problem in our
communities. Embedded within our BEST teams are FAST teams,
Fentanyl Abatement and Suppression Teams, as well as FORTs,
which are Fentanyl Overdose Recovery Teams, to better focus and
leverage our authorities against the fentanyl problem directly.
Ms. Dean. Let me shift briefly in the time I have left.
Could you give us an update on your work in helping identify/
find child victims and survivors of sexual exploitation?
Ms. Berger. Thank you for the question. We take leads from
any source. If someone has information about a child victim, a
victim of child sexual abuse or human trafficking, we welcome
those, those leads and rely on them heavily to advance our
investigations.
Ms. Dean. What role does AI play in identifying victims?
Ms. Berger. Thank you for the question regarding AI. We
hear a lot about it in the news. There are some very valid uses
that we have for AI, and we are having tremendous success with
the identification of child victims in sexual exploitations
material.
Ms. Dean. Thank you. I apologize and I yield back.
Mr. Biggs. Thank you.
Ms. Dean. Thank you, Director.
Mr. Biggs. The Chair, the Chair recognizes now the
gentleman from Texas, Mr. Nehls.
Mr. Nehls. Thank you, sir. Ma'am, thank you for being here.
I think Ms. Dean said it. We have people dying of fentanyl,
drug trafficking, a serious issue in our country. As an old
sheriff, we dealt with it in our county when I was a sheriff.
I was listening to what the Chair of the Full Committee
said a few minutes ago about Butler, you having 16 agents
there. Then, I hear the Chair of this Subcommittee talking
about it. So, you have 7,100 agents. What is your staffing? You
maybe have 7,100 in funding, but how many do you actually have?
What's your--do you know what that number would be? Are you
staffed at 90-95 percent?
Ms. Berger. I have it in here.
Mr. Nehls. All right. Well, maybe somebody behind you can
answer that.
This is the issue I have. So, the U.N. General Assembly,
did you say you're sending 1,200 of your agents up there?
Ms. Berger. That's correct, sir.
Mr. Nehls. Twelve hundred. So, when you find out the
number--let's say you have got 7,000, 6,800, whatever that
number--so you are going to send 1,200. So, 25 percent of your
workforce is going to go to, is it New York, for a couple of
weeks? Is that the assignment to augment or supplement the
Secret Service?
Ms. Berger. That's correct.
Mr. Nehls. Do you ever just raise your hand or just stop
and say I can't send you 1,200 agents? What the hell am I going
to do that for? We have got a border--we are losing 100,000
people to drug trafficking, the sex trafficking, and everything
taking place. You are up there at the U.N. with 25 percent of
your workforce. Do you ever say that is not--I am looking at
your mission statement. The mission of HSI is to investigate,
disrupt, and dismantle TCOs, which are transnational criminal
organizations, and national security threats seeking to exploit
the customs and immigration laws of the United States.
Now, so I don't know--how many human smuggling cases do you
anticipate investigating at the U.N.?
Ms. Berger. Support to Secret Service is an--
Mr. Nehls. That is not the question. How many human
smuggling cases? That is one of your missions. You aren't going
to investigate any of those at the U.N. Do we consider how many
transnational criminal organizations do you anticipate
investigating at the U.N. Assembly, unless we consider the U.N.
a transnational criminal organization?
The point I am trying to make is as a leader do you ever
say you are taking 25 percent of my workforce--and I don't
think--quite honestly you must not really be very well-
respected by the FBI. I say that because if the FBI--the lead
investigator at Butler never even contacted any of your 16
agents. You may just be filling a gap. That would be insulting,
in my opinion, if the FBI--you have 16 people there to
supplement, augment, whatever, and what were you doing? Were
you out in the parking lot with a road guard vest and a wand?
I think you need to focus on what your true mission is, and
that the mission at hand is to try to prevent the deaths of
fentanyl and these organizations of sex trafficking coming in,
but apparently you are everywhere else. You, quote,
1,000 Americans died from drug overdoses with fentanyl and
other synthetic opioids responsible for two-thirds of these
deaths in a 12-month period in 2024.
Yet, oh, don't worry about. We are going to send 25 percent of
your workforce up to New York for a couple of weeks.
We are losing too many people. Forty-one thousand pounds of
fentanyl seized in 2023. How much do you think gets through
that is not detected? How much fentanyl would you estimate gets
smuggled that goes undetected?
Ms. Berger. I can't answer that, sir.
Mr. Nehls. Bunches, I am sure. Houston, I represent Texas,
604 people died in 2023 of fentanyl poisoning, but, OK, let's
send 25 percent of them up there to New York. Don't worry about
it. We will put the health and welfare of the American people
last.
We have got a problem on our hands and our government now
spends billions of dollars to combat the problem President
Biden created in day one of his administration. Hard to fathom
my colleagues on the left would want to take resources away
from our brave law enforcement.
There is a poster I have where it is Kamala Harris. She is
the leader of the Democrat Party. In 2019, an ACLU candidate
questionnaire she quoted, ``As president, I will fight to pass
my Detention Oversight Not Expansion Act into law, which would
increase oversight of ICE detention beds, slash detention by 50
percent''--50 percent detention beds--``and halt funding for
the construction or expansion of new facilities.''
How do you feel that? Do we need to fund--how do you feel
about that when you hear calls for abolishing or significantly
cutting ICE funding and what impact would that have on you, on
HSI?
Ms. Berger. I defer any questions regarding detention
facilities to ERO.
Mr. Nehls. Yes. Kamala Harris, you did this to the American
people. Joe Biden, you have put the American people last.
Mr. Biggs. The gentleman's time is expired.
The Chair now recognizes the gentleman from Tennessee, Mr.
Cohen.
Mr. Cohen. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Fentanyl is a problem. Do you have any idea what percentage
of fentanyl comes into this country through trucks coming from
South America, airplanes coming from other countries, or by
immigrants bringing it in their purses?
Ms. Berger. Thank you for the question, sir. I don't have
any breakdown, but we can work on that and get you some
followup information.
Mr. Cohen. Do you have any idea at all? Does most of it
come by one way or another? Does it come by trucks coming in,
or by people coming in, or by airplanes, or what?
Ms. Berger. It's coming in various ways: Trucks and
consignment hubs. Really, I'd be a lot more comfortable getting
back to you with some definitive information as to--if we can
put some figures to that. It would be much more--I want to give
you accurate information.
Mr. Cohen. I don't need it to the exact number. I just want
a ballpark figure. Can you give me a guess? What is your best
estimate? Which is the most likely source?
Ms. Berger. Again, sir, I don't want to guess.
Mr. Cohen. I don't want you to guess. I want to use your
information to give me your opinion based on your history of
knowing where fentanyl comes from.
Ms. Berger. I can't say, sir. I'm sorry.
Mr. Cohen. All right. That is ridiculous, but I will let it
go. Women that have been brought into this country for sex
slaves, where do they mostly come in from? Walk in from the
border, come in on airplanes from Europe, come in by trucks, or
where?
Ms. Berger. Thank you for that question, sir. Human
trafficking and sex trafficking is a very important part of our
portfolio. Sex trafficking victims are not necessarily--they
can be foreign nationals, but they can also be U.S. citizens.
It's not a crime against the border. It's a crime against the
person. So, many of the sex trafficking victims that we
encounter are U.S. citizens.
There are trafficking victims that come in from foreign
countries as well. Labor trafficking is another very serious
crime that we investigate.
Mr. Cohen. How do the human trafficked people come into our
country, the ones that aren't born here?
Ms. Berger. They can come in various ways, through--
Mr. Cohen. What is the main way they come in?
Ms. Berger. They can come in across our land border, ports
of entry. They can come in on--
Mr. Cohen. Well, I understand that. They can parachute in
from a Chinese balloon, but what is the main way they come in?
Ms. Berger. I would say the land border, sir.
Mr. Cohen. They come in through the land borders? Do you
think they come in on foot, in trucks, or in vans?
Ms. Berger. Again, sir, I don't have specific statistics
for you. I can get back to you with that information, however.
Mr. Cohen. Do you work with companies like FedEx on trying
to ferret out importation of drugs?
Ms. Berger. Correct, sir, and other contraband.
Mr. Cohen. Do you have agents at FedEx in Memphis at their
hub?
Ms. Berger. Yes, sir, we do.
Mr. Cohen. Do you all do a good job of inspecting packages
that may be suspect to ferret out drugs?
Ms. Berger. We work collaboratively with CBP and our other
partners to target. There's a large volume of parcels and
shipments that come in, but we target extensively to better
identify suspect packages and take contraband off the streets.
Mr. Cohen. Do you do the same thing with UPS?
Ms. Berger. Yes, sir.
Mr. Cohen. With USPS?
Ms. Berger. Yes, sir.
Mr. Cohen. Senator Scott, I understand, put in a bill or
said he was going to put in a bill to require that Secret
Service protection be the same for former Presidents as they
are for current Presidents. Does it make any sense whatsoever
for Jimmy Carter to have the same number of Secret Service
agents as Mr. Trump?
Ms. Berger. I'd have to defer that to Secret Service, sir.
That's really a question for them.
Mr. Cohen. No, it is a question for you. I am asking you. A
man who is 100 years old, infirm, in a bed, can hardly get up.
Does he need Secret Service protection to the extent as Mr.
Trump who plays golf, goes around and speaks, and President
Biden who goes around and speaks?
Ms. Berger. I wouldn't like to make judgments--
Mr. Cohen. I yield back the balance of my time.
Mr. Biggs. The gentleman yields.
The Chair now recognizes the gentleman from Alabama, Mr.
Moore.
Mr. Moore. Ms. Berger, thank you so much for being here
today. Obviously, the Southern border has been in the headlines
a great deal, and kind to followup on what my colleague was
asking, when we went to the border--I talk about this all the
time, that the people coming from South of the border are
dealing with a cartel. They are paying money to cross the
Southern border.
One of the most eye-opening things--just South of the
border, this is months ago prior to all the inflation, but it
was $4,000-$5,000 they would pay the cartel and they would
smuggle them into our country. If they were further South, it
was $8,000-$9,000. I think Syrians were paying about $18,000-
$19,000. I don't remember what the Russians were paying, but
the thing is, when I went with Mr. Biggs and he took us down to
the border, one of the things that I found was fascinating,
some of those people didn't have the money to pay the cartel,
but they put on carpet shoes so they wouldn't have footprints,
and they would backpack heroin, cocaine, and fentanyl across
that border as a way to pay their passage to the cartel. Then,
I guess the drugs would be delivered once they crossed the
border to some distributor or whatever the case might be.
Not exactly sure what happened after they got into the
country, but fentanyl is certainly an issue. I think 110,000
people died last year, maybe 109,000 depending on who you ask.
I actually attended a funeral Monday and I come from a fairly
small town and this young man graduated with my daughter. I am
attending a lot of these funerals. We are losing these young
people. Think they are buying a Xanax. I think this particular
kid actually used one of those vape pods and it was laced with
fentanyl.
So, as we move forward why are we losing the battle to save
our young people in America with fentanyl, and what can we do
to help you do the job and what do you see as the issues that
keep you awake at night?
Ms. Berger. Thank you, sir, for the question. Certainly,
the fentanyl epidemic does keep me awake at night. We dedicate
a lot of resources governmentwide to combat these organizations
bringing fentanyl into our communities.
Again, I spoke previously about Title 21 authority. Many of
these poly-criminal--these are poly-criminal organizations that
are not just trafficking and smuggling fentanyl into the
country, but they're also using other types of crimes: Human
smuggling, human trafficking, and weapons trafficking. They're
using the same routes, the same money laundering mechanisms.
HSIs and agency investigates all these types of crimes. We
have extensive expertise with these areas of crime. Continued
partnership with DEA and Title 21 authority for us so that we
can investigate fully these poly-criminal organizations would
help us, give us another tool in our toolbox to help dismantle
these poly-criminal organizations that are bringing this poison
into our communities.
Mr. Moore. So, Director Berger, you said that--or somebody
had mentioned in the questioning that a lot of the raw
materials for fentanyl actually land in the U.S., and then they
go to Mexico. When they go to Mexico are they shipping them in
trucks or planes, or a little bit of both? How are they going
back across to make the actual product that comes across in the
backpacks that we see?
Ms. Berger. Predominantly the chemicals are going directly
into Mexico. There is some diversion out of the legitimate
supply chain where chemicals enter and then are transported
back into Mexico. Predominantly however the chemicals are
coming directly from China into Mexico.
Mr. Moore. So, to get to the causation, what do you think
immediately we can do? I understand you need more resources,
and we need more investigation, and this is a trans-global
whatever crime syndicate, whatever you want to call it, but
what immediately--why are we seeing such a spike? What is going
on and what could we do as Congress immediately to put a halt
to some of this? What do you see we need to do? I get tired
of--to apologizing--or for apologizing to these families for
losing these children.
Ms. Berger. Sir, what we've historically been doing to
combat fentanyl it's just not working, and we need to look at
this problem differently and really change the way we're doing
business. The criminal cartels, criminal organizations have
changed the way they do business, and we need to be nimble and
be able to effectively hit them back hard with all the
authorities that we have. HSI has those authorities. Title 21,
as I said, would bring 10,000 more investigators to this fight
at no cost to the U.S. Government.
Mr. Moore. Well, yes, I want to segue really quick. I got
about 15 seconds. You said there were 16 agents in Butler
County, Pennsylvania, the day that the assassination attempt on
President Trump happened. I guess it was the 13th. What
specific training is provided to those agents that are
assisting Secret Service?
Ms. Berger. I'm out of time. Would you like me to--
Mr. Biggs. Yes, the gentleman's time is expired, but you
may answer the question, Director.
Ms. Berger. Our workforce are highly trained Federal law
enforcement professionals. We go through six months of training
at the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center in Glynco,
Georgia. All our agents go through continuing training
throughout their service with the agency. In addition to that
there is a virtual training that agents complete prior to their
deployment on a Secret Service detail, but that deals--
Mr. Moore. It is a virtual training though, not--
Ms. Berger. It is a virtual training.
Mr. Moore. OK. I will yield back, Mr. Chair. I apologize.
Mr. Biggs. All right. I accept your apology.
The Chair now recognizes the gentleman from Georgia, Mr.
Johnson.
Mr. Johnson. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Ms. Berger, thank you so much for your testimony and also
for the excellent work that you do along with your 8,700
colleagues that keep America safe every day and I particularly
commend you for your previous work as--you were in HSI Atlanta
for a second. I appreciate that.
Ma'am, cryptocurrency allows for secrecy and impunity in
financial transactions, isn't that correct?
Ms. Berger. Correct, sir.
Mr. Johnson. The use of cryptocurrency by international
criminals creates unique challenges to our national security,
is that correct?
Ms. Berger. I would agree with that.
Mr. Johnson. The use of crypto in the global financial
system continues to grow and criminal actors are increasingly
using cryptocurrency to facilitate their criminal activities.
Is that correct?
Ms. Berger. Among other different techniques as well.
Mr. Johnson. The criminal activities that are being
facilitated by the use of crypto include drug trafficking?
Ms. Berger. Correct, sir.
Mr. Johnson. Illegal gun trafficking?
Ms. Berger. Correct.
Mr. Johnson. International child exploitation?
Ms. Berger. Correct.
Mr. Johnson. Human trafficking?
Ms. Berger. Correct.
Mr. Johnson. Financial scams and financial fraud?
Ms. Berger. I think all sorts of criminal activity can be
facilitated by cryptocurrency transactions.
Mr. Johnson. Criminals prefer cryptocurrency because it
enables them to generate wealth while avoiding transparency
required under traditional banking structures, which are well-
regulated by U.S. law, correct?
Ms. Berger. Yes, sir.
Mr. Johnson. International criminals use cryptocurrency to
secretly move illicit financial proceeds across international
boundaries including to places like Russia and North Korea,
correct?
Ms. Berger. I would assume so, yes.
Mr. Johnson. You are aware of the fact that just this
past--it was Sunday night or Monday night Donald Trump rolled
out his new cryptocurrency company, World Liberty Financial?
Ms. Berger. No, sir, I wasn't aware of that.
Mr. Johnson. Yo were not aware of that?
Ms. Berger. No, sir.
Mr. Johnson. Well, it was a big thing. I think he rolled it
out on Elon Musk's platform formerly known as Twitter. His
sons, Don Jr. and Eric, were placed in charge of it. I think
Barron Trump, young 20-year-old college student, has something
to do with it as well. A whiz kid, they are calling him, about
cryptocurrency.
What are the implications of a man who has been convicted
of 34 counts of financial fraud, facing three--facing four--or
three additional indictments alleging criminal activity getting
his hands on the levers of power over our international--
national security criminal law investigations like the ones
that your agency is responsible for conducting? What are the
implications of that?
Ms. Berger. I'm not a cryptocurrency expert. I know that
all cryptocurrency is not illegal, the use of it. I think I'm a
little long in the tooth for cryptocurrency, quite frankly. I
can't really speak to that. I don't have enough information
about that, sir.
Mr. Johnson. Well, I am concerned about it, and I know that
perhaps there might be some colleagues on the other side of the
aisle who might be concerned about it as well.
In addition to cryptocurrency there are other emerging
threats. What proactive measures does HSI take when it comes to
emerging threats like cryptocurrency and the use of
cryptocurrency to facilitate crime, international crime?
Ms. Berger. Thank you for that question. Certainly, like to
highlight our Cross-Border Financial Crime Center, which
leverages our relationships with our partners as well as
banking and financial industries to look at various emerging
trends with money laundering, and other schemes that criminal
organizations are using to launder their illicit finances.
Mr. Johnson. A President of the United States--
Mr. Biggs. The gentleman's time is expired.
I recognize now the gentleman from Illinois, Mr. Garcia.
I welcome you to the Committee, Mr. Garcia.
Mr. Garcia. Thank you, Chair Biggs. It is an honor to join
the Judiciary Committee.
Thank you, Ms. Berger, for your service and those of all
your personnel.
As we have discussed, HSI is interpreting its authority in
an overly broad manner, in my opinion, and it continues to
expand. This can spill over into jurisdictions of other Federal
agencies and where HSI has little or no documented experience
and lead to government surveillance without any suspicion or
wrongdoing.
These broad surveillance powers are of concerns to many of
the communities represented in this room, certainly mine. That
fear is acute in a district like mine. Most of my constituent
are Latino and one-third are foreign born, groups that studies
show have been particularly impacted by HSI's unwarranted
surveillance.
So, my first question is what steps if any has HSI taken to
address revelations that it abused authority leading to the
surveillance of thousands of personal financial transactions?
Ms. Berger. Thank you for the question, sir. I'm not
familiar--I'm not sure I'm tracking specifically what you're
asking about. We don't engage in unwarranted surveillance. If
we are conducting surveillance on individuals, it's because
they are subjects of active investigations. I don't know if
it's related to--again I'm speaking to HSI. I'm not speaking to
civil immigration-related enforcement operations. I'm speaking
as to the criminal activities that we would be conducting
surveillance on individuals.
Mr. Garcia. Well, I would appreciate if you would get back
to me because this was reported in various news outlets over
the past couple of years and there is a growing concern about
it. So, if you could do a little bit of research on that, I
would appreciate it.
Really quick, changing gears, there is another area where
HSI takes an inappropriately expansive view of its role, and
that is immigration enforcement. So, just for some context
here, although HSI's mission has more to do with transnational
crime, it regularly involves itself in raids targeting
undocumented workers. HSI agents themselves have advocated for
greater distance between the two saying that involvement in
immigration enforcement can impede important investigations.
So, how does HSI continue to justify its immigration
enforcement activities given those concerns and how does HSI
promote transparency especially in sensitive operations like
immigration enforcement?
Ms. Berger. Thank you for the question, sir. There's a lot
of confusion between what HSI does and what we don't do. What
we don't do is civil immigration enforcement. We are working
longer-term complex criminal investigations.
Specifically, toward the questions with work site
enforcement and raid, we've shifted our agency's posture from
work site investigations to labor exploitation investigations.
Our focus is on the employers that are engaging in unfair
practices and taking advantage of especially workers and people
who don't have a lawful immigration status, that they can be
paid less wages, they can be subject to unsafe working
conditions.
We treat them rightfully so as victims. We provide victim
services to them and really focus on the employers and help the
victims that are being exploited in these situations to get
services that they may need to be in a better position to help
with the prosecution of those employers that are subjecting
them to these unfair conditions.
Mr. Garcia. No issue there. I think the emphasis should be
focusing on criminal-type of activity, and certainly where
there is financial gain to be made as a result of that
involvement. I will be engaging with you if reports to the
contrary surface. I look forward to further engagement. Thank
you so much.
I yield back, Mr. Chair.
Ms. Berger. Yes, sir.
Mr. Biggs. The gentleman yields back. Now, I recognize
myself for my five minutes of questioning.
Thank you again for being here, director. So, let's talk
Title 21 for just a second here. in a Washington Post article
dated January 4, 2023, Secretary Mayorkas said--he indicated
that--very clearly that he felt that Title 21 authority needed
to be in the hands of HSI. Would you agree with his assessment
that you should have Title 21 authority?
Ms. Berger. Yes, sir, I agree with the Secretary 100
percent.
Mr. Biggs. One of the things you said, and I want to just
emphasize this, is that if you are engaged in an investigation
of human trafficking, for instance, and it turns out that there
are drugs being--going with it, you are going to have to stop
your investigation. You are not just doing some paperwork with
DEA; you are actually negotiating with DEA a scope of authority
that they are going to allow you to use. Is that fair?
Ms. Berger. That's correct.
Mr. Biggs. So, you could actually scuttle a whole
investigation with regard to human trafficking simply because
there are drugs involved and DEA doesn't want to let you
proceed on. So, you could lose witnesses and opportunities to
investigate. Is that fair?
Ms. Berger. That's correct, sir.
Mr. Biggs. So, I would just point out to the Committee that
Rep. Higgins has introduced 5713. It is a bipartisan piece of
legislation that would actually grant them--HSI Title 21
authority. I am on it. Rep. Moore is on it. Rep. Luis Correa is
on it. I think that is something we should consider.
I want to go to something else that has been raised as well
today and I want to see if we can--make sure we clear this up.
When you deploy--like in this got 1,200 going to UNGA. I don't
know how many other agents you have in the field that are going
to other protective details right now, but when you get 1,200-
1,500 agents off, you are having to divert from what is the
true mission of HSI. Is that fair to say?
Ms. Berger. That's fair to say.
Mr. Biggs. So, my question ultimately becomes this: How do
those assignments get--are those coming down from the
Secretary? It is implied that maybe you raise your hand and
volunteer. I have this sneaking suspicion that you are not
raising your hand volunteering and saying take 20 percent of my
workforce right off the top.
Ms. Berger. No, sir, I'm not. Thank you for the opportunity
to elaborate a little bit more on that.
Historically we have supported Secret Service, CBP, other
components within DHS in their mission. It's not optimal, but
they are a fellow agency within the department, and we will
support them as a whole-of-government approach.
Mr. Biggs. So, who gives you the notices like UNGA? This is
the United Nations General Assembly. I used to do international
and go to multilateral institutions. I have been there many
times.
So, my question is who determines that you need to give
them 1,200-1,300 people to go up to UNGA?
Ms. Berger. We try to negotiate down sometimes. With the
current--
Mr. Biggs. So, who tells you to say, hey, by the way, this
is going on; we want agents? Is that coming from the
Secretary's office?
Ms. Berger. They send a request for assistance and we--
Mr. Biggs. If you say no, what happens? Well, we don't want
to know what happens. OK. We can imagine what probably happens.
So, that is important to know. I have offered a number of
different solutions, and we will see what we can do going
forward. I will tell you that there were news reports right
after Butler which indicated that--because most of the
training--you are talking training for investigative work. You
are not talking protective detail work that--I imagine your
academy doesn't spend a great deal of time on protective detail
duty in your academy.
Ms. Berger. No, sir, we're not trained in the protective--
the close protective duties to protect the principal. We
support Secret Service in more collateral law enforcement
support. For example, post standing. Post standing is a large
part of what we do with Secret Service.
Mr. Biggs. Yes, so what we need to do is maybe get more
people with Title 21 authority and not diverted away from their
mission. Let's get Secret Service to do their mission.
Last thing is that one of the Members was asking you about
how much drug interdiction, how much human trafficking is
coming across the border. What he was really getting at is he
wants you to say that most of the drug that is--drugs and human
trafficking is interdicted at POEs. Well, that may or may not
be the case, but you are not just working at ports of entry.
You are working all over, in the interior as well. So, please
elaborate on that.
Ms. Berger. Smuggling can occur at both the ports of entry,
between the ports of entry. Can come in via the land borders,
our sea border, and our airports. It's really a much more
complex situation. Once the fentanyl or the contraband is in
the Nation, then it's continued to be distributed through
networks that these poly-criminal organizations are using to
distribute this poison throughout our communities.
What we do with HSI is really focus on the networks. Not
necessarily the individual cases, but the networks that these
organizations are using to move people, narcotics, weapons, and
other commodities throughout the country.
Mr. Biggs. Well, thank you. We appreciate your being here.
I know there is some followup. You have got some action items
left. So, we will look forward to seeing those responses.
With that, we are adjourned.
[Whereupon, at 11:37 a.m., the Subcommittee was adjourned.]
All materials submitted for the record by Members of the
Sub-
committee on Crime and Federal Government Surveillance can
be found at: https://docs.house.gov/Committee/Calendar/ByEvent
.aspx?EventID=117654.
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