[House Hearing, 118 Congress]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]





                    HOUSING OVERSIGHT: TESTIMONY OF
                  THE HUD AND FHFA INSPECTORS GENERAL

=======================================================================

                                HEARING

                               before the

                 SUBCOMMITTEE ON HOUSING AND INSURANCE

                                 of the

                    COMMITTEE ON FINANCIAL SERVICES

                     U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

                    ONE HUNDRED EIGHTEENTH CONGRESS

                             SECOND SESSION

                               __________


                             June 26, 2024

                               __________


                           Serial No. 118-97


       Printed for the use of the Committee on Financial Services





                 [GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]





                            www.govinfo.gov

                               ______
                                 

                 U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE

56-623 PDF                WASHINGTON : 2026










                 HOUSE COMMITTEE ON FINANCIAL SERVICES

               PATRICK McHENRY, North Carolina, Chairman

FRENCH HILL, Arkansas, Vice          MAXINE WATERS, California, Ranking 
    Chairman                             Member
FRANK D. LUCAS, Oklahoma             SYLVIA R. GARCIA, Texas, Vice 
PETE SESSIONS, Texas                     Ranking Member
BILL POSEY, Florida                  NYDIA M. VELAZQUEZ, New York
BLAINE LUETKEMEYER, Missouri         BRAD SHERMAN, California
BILL HUIZENGA, Michigan              GREGORY W. MEEKS, New York
ANN WAGNER, Missouri                 DAVID SCOTT, Georgia
ANDY BARR, Kentucky                  STEPHEN F. LYNCH, Massachusetts
ROGER WILLIAMS, Texas                AL GREEN, Texas
TOM EMMER, Minnesota                 EMANUEL CLEAVER, Missouri
BARRY LOUDERMILK, Georgia            JAMES A. HIMES, Connecticut
ALEXANDER X. MOONEY, West Virginia   BILL FOSTER, Illinois
WARREN DAVIDSON, Ohio                JOYCE BEATTY, Ohio
JOHN W. ROSE, Tennessee              JUAN VARGAS, California
BRYAN STEIL, Wisconsin               JOSH GOTTHEIMER, New Jersey
WILLIAM R. TIMMONS, IV, South        VICENTE GONZALEZ, Texas
    Carolina                         SEAN CASTEN, Illinois
RALPH NORMAN, South Carolina         AYANNA PRESSLEY, Massachusetts
DANIEL MEUSER, Pennsylvania          STEVEN HORSFORD, Nevada
SCOTT FITZGERALD, Wisconsin          RASHIDA TLAIB, Michigan
ANDREW R. GARBARINO, New York        RITCHIE TORRES, New York
YOUNG KIM, California                NIKEMA WILLIAMS, Georgia
BYRON DONALDS, Florida               WILEY NICKEL, North Carolina
MIKE FLOOD, Nebraska                 BRITTANY PETTERSEN, Colorado
MICHAEL LAWLER, New York
ZACHARY NUNN, Iowa
MONICA DE LA CRUZ, Texas
ERIN HOUCHIN, Indiana
ANDREW OGLES, Tennessee

                    Matthew Hoffmann, Staff Director

                                 ------                                

                 SUBCOMMITTEE ON HOUSING AND INSURANCE

                    WARREN DAVIDSON, Ohio, Chairman

MONICA DE LA CRUZ, Texas, Vice       EMANUEL CLEAVER, Missouri, Ranking 
    Chairwoman                           Member
BILL POSEY, Florida                  NYDIA M. VELAZQUEZ, New York
BLAINE LUETKEMEYER, Missouri         RASHIDA TLAIB, Michigan
RALPH NORMAN, South Carolina         RITCHIE TORRES, New York
SCOTT FITZGERALD, Wisconsin          AYANNA PRESSLEY, Massachusetts
ANDREW R. GARBARINO, New York        SYLVIA R. GARCIA, Texas
MIKE FLOOD, Nebraska                 NIKEMA WILLIAMS, Georgia
MICHAEL LAWLER, New York             STEVEN HORSFORD, Nevada
ERIN HOUCHIN, Indiana                BRITTANY PETTERSEN, Colorado









                         C  O  N  T  E  N  T  S

                              ----------                              

                        Wednesday, June 26, 2024

                           OPENING STATEMENTS

                                                                   Page
Hon. Warren Davidson, Chairman of the Subcommittee on Housing and 
  Insurance, a U.S. Representative from Ohio.....................     1
Hon. Emanuel Cleaver, Ranking Member of the Subcommittee on 
  Housing and Insurance, a U.S. Representative from Missouri.....     3

                               STATEMENTS

Hon. Maxine Waters, Ranking Member of the Financial Services 
  Committee, a U.S. Representative from California...............     4

                               WITNESSES

Hon. Rae Oliver Davis, Inspector General, Department of Housing 
  and Urban Development (HUD)....................................     4
    Prepared Statement...........................................     7
Hon. Brian M. Tomney, Inspector General, Federal Housing Finance 
  Agency (FHFA)..................................................    38
    Prepared Statement...........................................    40

                                APPENDIX

                 RESPONSES TO QUESTIONS FOR THE RECORD

Written responses to questions for the record from Hon. Rae 
  Oliver Davis (45-51)
    Representative Warren Davidson...............................    76
    Representative Scott Fitzgerald..............................    79
    Representative Maxine Waters.................................    81
Written responses to questions for the record from Hon. Brian M. 
  Tomney (52-55)
    Representative French Hill...................................    83
    Representative Brad Sherman..................................    84
    Representative Scott Fitzgerald..............................    85
    Representative Maxine Waters.................................    86

                              LEGISLATION

H.J.Res. ------, providing for congressional disapproval under 
  chapter 8 of title 5, United States Code, of the rule submitted 
  by the Department of Housing and Urban Development and the 
  Department of Agriculture relating to the "adoption of energy 
  efficiency standards for new construction of HUD and USDA-
  financed housing"..............................................    87
HR 7302, the "Contracting Accountability and Transparency (CAT) 
  Act"...........................................................    89
H.R. ----------, the "NeighborWorks Transparency and 
  Accountability Act"............................................    91
H.R. ----------, an act to enhance the oversight authorities of 
  certain Inspectors General.....................................    93









 
                    HOUSING OVERSIGHT: TESTIMONY OF
                  THE HUD AND FHFA INSPECTORS GENERAL

                              ----------                              


                        Wednesday, June 26, 2024

             U.S. House of Representatives,
             Subcommittee on Housing and Insurance,
                           Committee on Financial Services,
                                                    Washington, DC.

    The subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 10:05 a.m., in 
room 2128, Rayburn House Office Building, Hon. Warren Davidson 
[chairman of the subcommittee] presiding.
    Present: Representatives Davidson, Posey, Norman, 
Fitzgerald, Flood, Lawler, De La Cruz, Houchin, Timmons, 
Cleaver, Waters, Tlaib, Pressley, Garcia, Horsford, Pettersen, 
Waters, and Green.
    Chairman Davidson. The Subcommittee on Housing and 
Insurance will come to order.
    Without objection, the chairman is authorized to declare a 
recess of the committee at any time.
    This hearing is entitled ``Housing Oversight: Testimony of 
the HUD and FHFA Inspectors General.''
    Without objection, all members will have five legislative 
days within which to submit extraneous materials to the 
chairman for inclusion in the record.
    I now recognize myself for 5 minutes to give an opening 
statement.

 HON. WARREN DAVIDSON, CHAIRMAN OF THE SUBCOMMITTEE ON HOUSING 
         AND INSURANCE, A U.S. REPRESENTATIVE FROM OHIO

    Today, we will hold another hearing to bring accountability 
to government agencies and regulators, a top priority for me as 
a subcommittee chairman in this Congress. It is a critical 
theme as the Nation continues to experience one of the toughest 
housing markets that we have had.
    Testifying are the Inspectors General of both HUD, Housing 
and Urban Development, and FHFA, the Federal Housing Finance 
Agency, whose work has been invaluable to Congress and to the 
American people.
    Inspectors General are in a unique position to ask tough 
questions, dig deeper, and ultimately root out waste, fraud, 
and abuse in the Federal Government. Fundamentally, they hold 
the government accountable for doing what the law says, whether 
or not people agree that it should be the law.
    When it comes to HUD and FHFA, these two Inspectors General 
have their work cut out for them.
    Ms. Oliver Davis and her team have uncovered many 
deficiencies at HUD, including the failure of several public 
housing agencies to deliver on HUD's mission statement to 
provide decent, safe, and sanitary housing.
    We recently held a hearing on this very topic, and I can 
say that both sides of the aisle were appalled by things going 
on in our Public Housing Authority. The conditions for many 
residents of public housing are simply unacceptable, which is 
why the committee has considered several bills to hold Public 
Housing Authorities accountable.
    We all know that these problems are likely just the tip of 
the iceberg for HUD. However, I have introduced my own bill to 
create a bipartisan commission that would take a broader look 
at HUD, and their job will be to evaluate the entire agency, 
provide recommendations to Congress to make HUD work more 
efficiently and effectively, frankly, to update the 
authorizations, many of which have lapsed, and to hopefully 
make some improvements of dealing with benefit cliffs and kind 
of a standardized income asset test that would address things 
that Secretary Fudge pointed out in dialog when she came to 
testify in January.
    When it comes to government regulators like FHFA, which 
oversee about 70 percent of the Federal housing market through 
Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, the first rule should be to do no 
harm. I cannot say that FHFA is following that rule too clearly 
these days.
    Now is an especially crucial time for FHFA to provide 
stability and certainty and transparency in housing markets. 
American families seeking affordable housing need a safe and 
steady hand behind the wheel. Instead, they are getting a 
confused study in contrast.
    On the one hand, FHFA has made so-called mission activities 
front and center for its stated objective to, quote, promote 
affordable housing. On the other hand, it has rolled out a 
pricing grid that would reduce affordability for creditworthy 
borrowers. On the other hand, FHFA finalized a rule to require 
approval and public comment for the Government-Sponsored 
Enterprises' (GSEs') new products and activities.
    FHFA is supposed to promote home ownership and help first-
time borrowers. In an effort to do that, they have green lit a 
title insurance waiver program that has no transparency--and it 
is not clear that it will--instead of helping, cause harm to 
these borrowers.
    They are now considering a risky second-lien, actually have 
decided to move forward with a second-lien proposal for 
existing homeowners that would essentially add more debt 
against a secured asset and not just expose the borrowers to 
problems with their own mortgages but expose the entire 
mortgage-backed securities market to additional risk and 
potentially cause a lot of harm.
    If only there were a precedent to learn from. Clearly there 
is, in fact, precedent, and this is something we have no input 
from any constituency saying the second liens on mortgages is 
in real demand in the market. I have no one coming and saying, 
``Congressman, as chairman of Housing and Insurance, you have 
to get this done.''
    Instead, everyone is sounding the alarm. Can we not learn 
from the benefits of history and they are not even following 
their own product development process--product approval 
process.
    So the list is long. I hope today's hearing will provide 
more clarity on FHFA's recent decisions. Even well-intentioned 
policies should not come at the expense of safety and soundness 
of the housing market.
    I look forward to hearing the testimony of both HUD and the 
FHFA Inspectors General (IGs). I thank you both for your work 
and for the opportunity for Congress to perform the essential 
oversight of your activities as Inspectors General.
    I now recognize the gentleman from Missouri, the ranking 
member of the subcommittee, Mr. Cleaver, for 4 minutes for his 
opening comments.

  HON. EMANUEL CLEAVER, RANKING MEMBER OF THE SUBCOMMITTEE ON 
   HOUSING AND INSURANCE, A U.S. REPRESENTATIVE FROM MISSOURI

    Mr. Cleaver. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    I will begin by declaring that we will never--never--reduce 
or eradicate poverty until we adequately address the deficit in 
affordable housing.
    Housing is less affordable today than at any point in 
modern history. The lack of affordable housing has fueled a 
national crisis of fair and affordable housing and 
homelessness.
    HUD is on the front lines in responding to the devastating 
impacts of this crisis. Today, HUD helps provide decent, safe, 
and affordable housing to more than 4.3 million--4.3 million--
low-income families through its public housing, rental subsidy, 
and voucher programs.
    FHFA ensures the enterprises remain financially sustainable 
while providing market stability for renters and borrowers, 
especially for underserved populations and communities.
    Since 2008, FHFA has served as a conservator for the 
enterprises following their insolvency due to poor management 
and investment decisions, including failure to hold sufficient 
capital and purchases of predatory subprime mortgages.
    In May 2024, FHFA issued its final Fair Lending, Fair 
Housing, and Equitable Housing Finance Plan Rule. The Equitable 
Housing Finance Plans direct the enterprises to assess lending 
disparities in their respective portfolios and to establish a 
plan to enhance the availability of fair and affordable housing 
and mortgage lending to low-to moderate-income families and 
people of color.
    The rule will help increase public transparency and 
accountability for the enterprises and reinforce oversight of 
unfair and deceptive practices to FHFA's fair housing and fair 
lending oversight programs.
    This is historic work. Together, both the HUD and the FHFA 
Offices of Inspector General (OIGs) play critical roles in 
advancing the integrity, accountability, and effectiveness of 
HUD and FHFA, respectively, and their Federal housing and 
finance programs.
    We are fortunate to have the perspective of HUD Inspector 
General Oliver Davis and FHFA Inspector General Brian Tomney 
before the subcommittee today. The HUD and FHFA OIG are both 
mandated to combat fraud, waste, and abuse.
    Contrary to claims of HUD's inefficiencies, HUD, under the 
Biden-Harris Administration, has worked diligently to address 
outstanding recommendations from OIG, including those resulting 
from harmful policies enacted under the Trump Administration.
    I look forward to this exchange today.
    Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    Chairman Davidson. Thank you, Mr. Cleaver.
    I now recognize the ranking member of the committee.

 HON. MAXINE WATERS, RANKING MEMBER OF THE FINANCIAL SERVICES 
        COMMITTEE, A U.S. REPRESENTATIVE FROM CALIFORNIA

    Ms. Waters. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.
    Housing is the number one domestic issue and a priority for 
voters all across the political spectrum. When Americans spend 
on average 30 to 50 percent of their income on housing, it is 
no wonder that their paychecks do not go far as they should. 
Yet, MAGA Republicans are ignoring Americans' calls to build 
more housing and cut costs.
    While I value the insights of the Inspectors General here 
today, they cannot offer Congress legislative solutions to act 
on but they do not need to either, because we already know what 
to do.
    This committee needs to get serious and pass my bills, H.R. 
4233, to create over a million affordable and accessible homes; 
H.R. 4232, to end homelessness; and H.R. 4231, to restore the 
American dream of home ownership.
    I thank you. I yield back, and I await the testimony of the 
Inspectors General to see if they can help us create more 
housing or maybe they are here for something else. I do not 
know.
    Thank you. I yield back.
    Chairman Davidson. I thank the ranking member.
    Today, we welcome the testimony of Hon. Rae Davis Oliver--
or Rae Oliver Davis, my apologies--Inspector General of the 
Department of Housing and Urban Development, and Hon. Brian M. 
Tomney, the Inspector General for the Federal Housing Finance 
Agency.
    We thank each of you for taking time to be here today. Each 
of you will be recognized for 5 minutes to give an oral 
presentation of your testimony. Without objection, each of your 
written statements will be made part of the record.
    Mr. Davis, you are now recognized for five--Ms. Davis, my 
apologies. It does say Mr. here. Ms. Davis, my apologies. You 
are now recognized for 5 minutes for your oral remarks.

STATEMENT OF RAE OLIVER DAVIS, INSPECTOR GENERAL, DEPARTMENT OF 
              HOUSING AND URBAN DEVELOPMENT (HUD)

    Ms. Oliver Davis. Thank you.
    Good morning, Chairman Davidson, Ranking Member Cleaver, 
and members of the subcommittee. Thank you for inviting me to 
testify about oversight of the U.S. Department of Housing and 
Urban Development.
    HUD plays a critical role in every American community, 
providing billions of dollars for rental assistance, preventing 
homelessness, disaster recovery programs, and economic 
development.
    HUD also creates important affordable housing and home 
ownership opportunities by ensuring trillions of dollars of 
mortgage loans and creating liquidity for those loans through 
Ginnie Mae's mortgage-backed securities program.
    Our country faces significant and complex challenges in the 
housing space today. Housing is more expensive now than ever. 
There is not enough affordable housing to meet the demands of 
American communities. Nearly all of the affordable housing 
stock that receives HUD funding is old and needs major repairs.
    Economic conditions have slowed the pace of new 
construction and transactions that would leverage private 
investment to increase the affordable housing supply. Interest 
rates remain high and make mortgages less affordable. These 
conditions also create liquidity crunches for many of the 
independent mortgage banks that HUD relies on to service loans 
and provide payments to investors.
    There is legitimate concern about the impact that an 
economic downturn could have on servicers' ability to operate 
and whether Ginnie Mae will have to take on the responsibility 
for servicing portfolios like it did in 2022 with the collapse 
of reverse mortgage funding.
    Several aspects of these challenges are not within HUD or 
the Federal Government's control. My office's oversight is 
focused on the things that HUD can and should control.
    We want to help HUD maximize the outcomes that its programs 
and funding generate and strengthen HUD's ability to prevent 
fraud, waste, and abuse that robs communities and families of 
the resources they need.
    My testimony today will highlight key areas where HUD can 
improve the integrity and efficiency of its operations, as well 
as the effectiveness of its programs in producing for the 
families and communities it assists.
    We have identified many meaningful HUD actions that can be 
taken, including over 30 open recommendations across its 
programs that we have labeled as priority recommendations.
    For example, in its oversight of safety hazards in assisted 
housing, HUD needs to ensure that property inspections are 
performed within required timeframes and that complaints about 
health and safety risks in multi-family properties are resolved 
timely.
    HUD also needs to take action to require property owners to 
document their determinations not to use lead-safe work 
practices when performing maintenance on properties that 
disturbs lead-based paint and enhance its process for 
monitoring how property owners correct emergency health and 
safety deficiencies identified during inspections.
    HUD also needs to act immediately to better protect 
employees of HUD contractors from retaliation for reporting 
fraud, waste, and abuse on mismanagement that affect its 
programs.
    Our office has identified that whistleblower protections 
extended to the employees of Federal contractors in 2013 by 
Congress are not available for employees falling under 
thousands of long-term HUD contracts, HUD assistance contracts.
    Many whistleblowers work at the same housing providers that 
HUD is challenged to oversee, and they deserve the fullest 
protection under the law when reporting matters, such as 
financial irregularities and specific and substantial dangers 
to public health and safety affecting low-income housing.
    Our office has also recommended HUD to do more to enhance 
controls that prevent fraud before it ever occurs. HUD needs to 
take the basic steps of identifying how programs could be 
defrauded and taking actions to mitigate those risks, then 
testing how well those controls work and taking actions to make 
them even stronger.
    HUD also needs to ensure that its over 40,000 contractors 
and grantee partners are held accountable for assisting in 
fraud detection and prevention.
    Similarly, HUD is chronically challenged with understanding 
the extent to which proper payments are made in its two largest 
rental assistance programs. HUD has been unable to estimate the 
proper amount of improper payments in these programs for the 
past 7 years. Funds spent in these programs total more than $45 
billion in Fiscal Year 2023 alone. That is over two-thirds of 
HUD's expenditures.
    Estimating the improper payments is the first step to 
finding why they occur and creating a plan to reduce them.
    To conclude, I am proud of the hard work of my dedicated 
staff and the robust oversight that our teams provide to our 
stakeholders.
    I am looking forward to working with this subcommittee in 
the future, and I welcome any questions that you may have.

    [The prepared statement of Ms. Oliver Davis follows:]

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    Chairman Davidson. Thanks, Ms. Davis.
    Mr. Tomney, you are now recognized for 5 minutes for your 
opening statement and oral remarks.

   STATEMENT OF BRIAN M. TOMNEY, INSPECTOR GENERAL, FEDERAL 
                 HOUSING FINANCE AGENCY (FHFA)

    Mr. Tomney. Thank you.
    Chairman Davidson, Ranking Member Cleaver, and honored 
members of the subcommittee, thank you for the opportunity to 
appear today to talk about the meaningful work that my office 
is doing for the benefit of the American homeowners.
    I am honored to appear with my distinguished colleague, Rae 
Oliver Davis, Inspector General with the Department of Housing 
and Urban Development.
    Although each of our agencies has a unique mission and 
different work streams, we share many of the same oversight 
goals.
    It has been a little over 2 years since I became the FHFA 
Inspector General in early 2022. During that time, we have 
issued more than 60 reports covering topics such as enterprise 
supervision and conservatorship, the Federal Home Loan Bank 
System, nonbank seller/servicers, business resiliency, 
appraisals, and the crucial area of cybersecurity.
    Our findings largely demonstrate that FHFA is achieving 
better administrative and management results and maturing as an 
agency and a regulator. At the same time, we have identified 
areas where the Agency can improve and continue to progress. In 
those cases, we have offered recommendations, all of which the 
Agency has committed to implement.
    In addition to the work of our report teams, our 
investigators play a significant role in protecting the 
Nation's mortgage markets through civil and criminal 
investigations of mortgage fraud and other financial crimes. We 
have routinely partnered with investigators from HUD and the 
Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation (FDIC) OIGs, the Federal 
Bureau of Investigation, and Federal and State law enforcement 
agencies. Our investigations often focus on fraud involving 
loan originations and modifications, short sales, and 
residential mortgage-backed securities, or RMBS.
    We also continue to investigate pandemic fraud, often 
schemes that targeted the Paycheck Protection Program. Here we 
have seen fraudsters use illegally obtained Paycheck Protection 
Program (PPP) loans to take out millions in fraudulent 
mortgages and steal from multiple Federal Home Loan Bank member 
banks.
    In the past few years, our Office of Investigations has 
reported more than 150 convictions or pleas and more than $2.2 
billion in criminal and civil penalties.
    In 2023, our investigators, working with other Federal law 
enforcement partners, played a pivotal role in the resolution 
of one of the last cases from the financial crisis. Investment 
bank and financial services company Union Bank of Switzerland 
(UBS) agreed to pay almost $1.5 billion in penalties to settle 
a civil action relating to underwriting and issuing RMBS in 
2006 and 2007.
    Just a few months ago, we also completed one of the largest 
PPP conspiracy cases up to now. After more than 2 years of 
complex work, 17 conspirators were sentenced for their roles in 
fraudulently obtaining and laundering millions of forgivable 
PPP loans.
    My team and I also take allegations of fraud against 
vulnerable people seriously, and when we have the jurisdiction 
to pursue justice for the victims, we are committed to doing 
so.
    In one recent example, we investigated and supported the 
prosecution of three co-conspirators in a $7 million fraud 
scheme that targeted vulnerable people. This included elderly 
homeowners in financial distress who were just trying to stay 
in their homes.
    Sadly, although the fraudsters were found guilty and 
sentenced to 6, 10, and 25 years, all of the victims still lost 
their homes.
    Looking toward the future, our reporting will continue to 
focus on areas of highest risk. Whenever appropriate, we will 
offer actionable recommendations to improve FHFA's operations 
and oversight. Some of this work will build on findings in 
previous reports; some will represent an expanded facet of 
oversight. I look forward to sharing the results of this work 
with you in the future.
    While I cannot comment on our ongoing investigations, I can 
assure you that we remain vigilant in investigating and 
prosecuting fraud that affects our Nation's housing finance 
system.
    In all of our work, we remain focused on our mission.
    I thank the subcommittee for the opportunity to testify 
today, and I am happy to answer any questions you may have.

    [The prepared statement of Mr. Tomney follows:]

[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

    Chairman Davidson. Thank you, Mr. Tomney, for your opening 
statement.
    We will now turn to member questions. I recognize myself 
for 5 minutes for questioning.
    Ms. Oliver Davis, I want to thank you for highlighting in 
your opening remarks the whistleblower protections that are out 
there. Just last month, we had hearings where two of our 
witnesses were basically driven out of Public Housing 
Authorities for basically blowing the whistle on the things 
that are going wrong there. So thank you for highlighting that.
    I just want to know about the Hatch Act. The Biden 
Administration issued an executive order to have every Federal 
agency engage in voter registration.
    Is voter registration part of the HUD mission?
    Ms. Oliver Davis. Thank you for that question, Mr. 
Chairman.
    In reference to the Hatch Act, normally we would turn over 
allegations around the Hatch Act to the Office of Special 
Counsel, and I have not seen any guidance out on that at the 
Department as of yet.
    Chairman Davidson. I do not think you will see any coming 
from the administration about that at this time, but, frankly, 
in the past, Inspectors General have held people from both 
parties liable for violations of the Hatch Act. In fact, that 
has happened just as recently as the last administration within 
HUD.
    I would ask that you take a look at the Hatch Act, 
particularly with respect to voter registration drives and the 
potential for ballot harvesting drop boxes at HUD properties. 
Could you do that?
    Ms. Oliver Davis. I am happy to look into that issue and 
find out more about it.
    Chairman Davidson. I think it lines pretty well outside the 
mission of Housing and Urban Development. So I really 
appreciate that.
    I have introduced a bill, as I mentioned, a bipartisan 
commission to review HUD's organization to make recommendations 
for needed reforms. I think we can all agree, given the state 
of public housing, the gaps in overseeing billions of dollars 
of grants and overall delays, conditions in the public housing 
units, and, frankly, actual crime that thankfully is being 
prosecuted by the Department of Justice, that HUD is not 
functioning as efficiently or effectively as the American 
people expect them to.
    If we could get this commission enacted, would you agree to 
work with the commission to the maximum extent possible to help 
in the evaluation of this?
    Ms. Oliver Davis. I would be happy to meet with the 
commission and learn how our oversight could be impactful, yes.
    Chairman Davidson. Yes. Thank you.
    We are hoping to get that commission funded through 
appropriations and across the finish line but it has two 
members from each party. They cannot cut spending. They cannot 
launch new stuff, but they could refine the current programs 
and update the authorizations, which is a big issue within HUD.
    Mr. Tomney, I want to thank you for highlighting the 
conservatorship issues. One of the deficiencies in the current 
administration is they have not delivered a report that is 
required by law to say what is the plan to end conservatorship, 
and that has not happened for quite a long time.
    Now, the Secretary of Treasury is responsible for 
delivering the report, but of course the people that would be 
involved in it are the GSEs themselves within FHFA.
    Have you seen any activity working toward fulfilling that 
legal obligation?
    Mr. Tomney. Thank you for the question, Mr. Chairman.
    Obviously, the conservatorship topic has been one for 
virtually 16 years now, that has a lot of complexity to it.
    Chairman Davidson. Almost old enough to be an adult but are 
they complying with the law that says give us a plan? Have you 
seen any activity going on that says they are working toward 
that?
    Mr. Tomney. I have not seen anything. We have done some 
work in that space from our oversight perspective to confirm 
that FHFA itself, as it relates to conservatorship decisions, 
is for the most part properly documenting the decisionmaking 
process while they are in----
    Chairman Davidson. Yes. Thank you, and I would just ask you 
to give attention to that because it is a statutory obligation.
    I sent you a letter in advance of this hearing questioning 
FHFA's use of the so-called new product rule. Fannie and 
Freddie are required by statute and by regulation to gain the 
approval of the Director of FHFA before introducing any new 
product, something that is incredibly important.
    Recently Director Thompson used the new products rule to 
approve risky, unnecessary programs to allow Freddie Mac to 
purchase second mortgages. They mostly used it to kind of 
change the mandate and mission of the Federal Home Loan Bank.
    So do you think that the 30-day public comment period is 
enough and are they complying with it?
    Mr. Tomney. Thank you. Thank you for your letter last week 
and your thoughts that you expressed in it.
    I am certainly familiar with both of the recent new 
products that have been approved, as well as the recent rule.
    We have not done any work yet in that space. We are 
currently going through our risk assessment process now to plan 
for future products moving forward and to the extent that we 
evaluate this space, we will certainly be able to consider 
that.
    Chairman Davidson. They seem to be timed very selectively, 
ahead of like the State of the Union or a Presidential debate 
or something like that.
    There is not demand from the public. There is not a comment 
period where they could weigh in and say this is a bad idea. So 
I would ask you to give attention to that.
    The other part is there are pipelines in the process--there 
are products begging for approval that have been in the process 
for years, and they cannot get a decision out of FHFA. So it is 
very selective. I do not think they are complying with the new 
product rule, and I would ask you to look at that.
    My time has expired. I now would like to recognize the 
gentleman from Missouri, Mr. Cleaver, who is also the chair of 
the Subcommittee--the ranking member of the Subcommittee on 
Housing--for 5 minutes.
    Mr. Cleaver. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    Ms. Davis, is registering voters a political act? I mean, I 
know telling residents in public housing how to vote is, but 
the registration part.
    Ms. Oliver Davis. Congressman, I am not sure I can be 
helpful in this area. I do not really have all the facts. I do 
not have expertise in this particular area to offer.
    I am happy to listen to the member, the subcommittee 
members' concerns on this, and learn more if I can.
    Mr. Cleaver. I am not concerned. Having lived in public 
housing, I know I do not ever remember my parents going up to 
the office to get a ballot on how to vote.
    The other issue: The Biden-Harris Administration inherited 
1,733 recommendations left open and unaddressed by the previous 
administration. On this past March, the administration had 
closed 253 OIG recommendations, reducing the total number of 
open recommendations to 820.
    As HUD continues to implement the OIG's recommendations, 
substantial investments are needed to strengthen its programs 
and oversight capabilities.
    Do you agree with the fact that resources are needed to 
address the problems that have been exposed?
    Ms. Oliver Davis. We have identified and we have tried to 
reflect that in our ``Top Management Challenges'' report this 
year. The capacity is a major concern for the Department, 
capacity in terms of skill sets, people, resources, technology. 
Certainly, they need additional capacity to hold their program 
partners accountable.
    Mr. Cleaver. When the HUD Secretary was here she spoke 
publicly about--and I have spoken with her about this 
privately--that many of the things that the Department receives 
criticism for not having done and the directions to get certain 
things done are simply beyond the capacity of HUD with the 
current allotment from Congress.
    Mr. Tomney, I know the OIG office does not get into the 
congressional prerogative of the funding. However, if the 
recommendations from you continue to pile up, is that not going 
to create an--do damage to HUD ever catching up with all the 
recommendations?
    Ms. Oliver Davis. We certainly take that into account as we 
start new work. I mean, the same can be said of, frankly, my 
resources and my portfolio. There is an enormous program that 
we have to oversee.
    So we have to risk-base our work. We have to make sure that 
we get the critical parts of HUD's portfolio and make very 
smart, very focused recommendations.
    Things like Ginnie Mae with a trillion-dollar portfolio, we 
were in the past pretty much focused just on the financial 
audit. We now have an audit team that looks primarily at Ginnie 
Mae.
    We are trying to be very good stewards of our resources and 
make very good recommendations.
    Mr. Cleaver. Yes. I agree that, as the recommendations go 
unaddressed because there are not the dollars for HUD to 
address them, the same thing applies to the OIG, does it not?
    Ms. Oliver Davis. It does. We can always do more with more 
and there is always more to do, frankly.
    Mr. Cleaver. Does your office also monitor issues that 
tenants may be raising? I mean, do you look into tenants 
organizations, welfare rights organizations who also registered 
concerns and raised issues?
    Ms. Oliver Davis. Well, first and foremost, we certainly 
have a hotline, and we get a remarkable amount of input and 
outreach from tenants.
    We have also been doing community outreach. Just yesterday, 
I was out in DC with the D.C. U.S. Attorney meeting with 
community groups, which we hope will touch tenants and get to 
tenants, talking about our initiatives, our lead initiatives, 
our sexual misconduct initiatives out in housing.
    So we are taking into account tenants and meeting quite a 
bit with individuals that can speak directly to their concerns.
    Mr. Cleaver. Thank you.
    I yield back, Mr. Chairman.
    Chairman Davidson. Thank you, Mr. Cleaver.
    Floor votes have been called. We will try to get through a 
few more rounds of questions and then it is the intention for 
the committee to recess to allow members to vote and 
immediately resume the hearing as soon as these votes are 
finished.
    With that, I recognize the gentleman from South Carolina, 
Mr. Norman, for 5 minutes.
    Mr. Norman. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    Thank you for appearing today.
    I think your comment about the importance of correcting the 
mismanagement and I guess fraud that is within the division--
what kind, a question for both of you, what do we need to do in 
Congress to speed up the process? I notice you had commitments 
that were going to improve or I guess look into the complaints. 
What kind of timetable and what kind of, I guess, ramifications 
if they do not comply?
    Ms. Oliver Davis. Congressman, are we talking about open 
recommendations? Yes.
    One thing that we have done at HUD OIG is we have really 
focused in on priority recommendations. As other members have 
cited, we have a large number of recommendations that we have 
made at the Department. What we try to do is really focus on 
the ones that can make the most difference.
    I would draw the subcommittee's attention to those. Things 
like elevated blood levels in children in public housing, 
things like IT concerns over security when there is personally 
identifiable information (PII) at risk.
    In terms of the recommendations, we have a process that we 
follow internally, and sometimes that process leads to 
agreement and sometimes it leads to disagreement.
    One thing that I am very much hoping to do as the head of 
my agency is be in control of the closure of those 
recommendations. I want to be in the position to look at what 
HUD is doing and say whether or not they have satisfied my 
recommendation. That is something I do not necessarily have the 
authority to do right now.
    Mr. Tomney. Thank you for the question.
    Obviously, there is a scale difference between HUD and FHFA 
as far as our open recommendations. As of just yesterday, we 
were only at 42 and within the last 2 years since I have taken 
office, the FHFA has closed 98, and of that, about half of 
those were ones that were recommended during my tenure.
    Director Thompson came to me early on, on her own, and 
acknowledged the open recommendations and committed to me that 
she was working to close them and implement them as quickly as 
possible.
    By and large, I have been pleased with the response that we 
have gotten from the Agency, and certainly nobody on my staff 
has raised any particular concern.
    So we are working to close them as fast as possible. Some 
are easier than others. Some could be just a quick update of 
training to a certain group of people. Others could involve IT 
infrastructure changes that will just take time.
    All in all, I have been pleased with the closure pace in my 
Agency.
    Mr. Norman. They are not only giving you responses, they 
are giving you actions that are correcting the recommendations 
to make the Agency better?
    Mr. Tomney. Correct. So the process is that once we make a 
recommendation, it is on FHFA to then implement that.
    Once FHFA believes that they have fully implemented it, 
they reach back out to the team, the audit team or the 
evaluation team that made the recommendation.
    We make the determination of whether they have satisfied 
that recommendation. Once they do, we then close the 
recommendation as implemented.
    Mr. Norman. Okay.
    Congressman Davidson had mentioned the Hatch Act. What is 
literally taking place is at pretty much every government 
agency they are giving out voter registration forms. I am from 
South Carolina. We are checking into are these illegals.
    A lot of them, the Federal Government under Biden has given 
Social Security numbers, given driver's licenses. Basically, it 
is a registration to vote when it is illegal on the face of it. 
We are looking into that now.
    Are you aware of this and do you condone this?
    Mr. Tomney. I have certainly not seen that. I have 
certainly seen the Hatch Act warnings from my office come out 
to remind folks to be mindful of it, particularly in an 
election year. I have not seen this in my office, and it has 
not been an issue that has been raised to me.
    Ms. Oliver Davis. Sir, I am not aware of it as well. 
Likewise to my colleague, we train on the Hatch Act internally. 
We discussed it, but I am not aware of this activity. I am not.
    Mr. Norman. Okay. Thank you for your time. Hopefully we 
can--I am in the home building business. I do not know what 
affordable housing is anymore and particularly with the way we 
are with providing housing for the illegal aliens, we have a 
problem all over this country, affordable problem.
    Thank you so much.
    Chairman Davidson. Thanks, Mr. Norman.
    I now recognize the gentlewoman from California, Ms. 
Waters, who is also the ranking member of the full committee, 
for 5 minutes.
    Ms. Waters. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.
    I would like to direct this question to Ms. Rae Oliver 
Davis.
    I am looking at an article from The Washington Post, July 
28, 2019, and it is where President Trump characterized 
Representative Elijah Cummings' Baltimore-based congressional 
district as a rodent-infested mess where no human would want to 
live.
    Also, I am looking at the fact that the President just a 
few days ago made a similar statement about Baltimore. It 
appears that the Kushner family own thousands of apartments 
that were considered rat infested and other kinds of problems.
    Do you know whether or not those rat-infested apartments 
owned by Mr. Kushner are still in Baltimore?
    Ms. Oliver Davis. I cannot speak to those specific 
properties or the specific units.
    Ms. Waters. I cannot hear you.
    Ms. Oliver Davis. I cannot speak to those specific 
properties or the specific units.
    Ms. Waters. Have you had complaints about rat-infested 
apartments in Baltimore, Maryland, or in Virginia, that were 
owned by Mr. Kushner or his family?
    Ms. Oliver Davis. I would need to do some internal data 
gathering to verify whether or not we, in fact, had complaints 
about that.
    Ms. Waters. The President just a few days ago said it was a 
mess, it was terrible.
    Have you thought about looking into it, since the Vice 
President--I mean, the former President--said that it was a 
mess, Baltimore was a mess?
    Ms. Oliver Davis. We have a pretty robust portfolio in 
terms of decent, safe, and sanitary issues involving public 
housing in HUD-assisted housing, and we are always looking to 
hear about more issues. We are certain they are out there.
    Ms. Waters. How long have you been Inspector General?
    Ms. Oliver Davis. Since the beginning of 2019.
    Ms. Waters. Have you conducted any investigations on rat-
infested apartments in Virginia or in Baltimore?
    Ms. Oliver Davis. We have, again, a remarkable--we have a 
remarkable portfolio in this area.
    I cannot speak to specifics on rats or mold, although we do 
hear about that quite a bit nationwide. That is not an unusual 
complaint that we would get.
    We are looking at unit conditions across the board. Voucher 
programs that are participating, we are looking at unit 
conditions in specific properties, Rental Assistance 
Demonstration (RAD) conversions. We are certainly in the Public 
Housing Authority (PHA) space and multi-family. We are doing a 
lot of work.
    Ms. Waters. Did the former President's comments catch your 
attention just a few days ago and give you cause to want to 
take a look and see what was happening in this place he called 
a mess, the city of Baltimore?
    Ms. Oliver Davis. Frankly, you are raising my awareness to 
those comments today.
    I hear comments daily that are extremely concerning to me 
about the state of HUD housing and specific landlords and PHAs.
    Ms. Waters. Is it unusual to hear about a city that is a 
mess who maybe have apartments that are participating in 
Federal resources that would cause you to take a look, and 
particularly if the accusation came from high places?
    Ms. Oliver Davis. I understand the sense of urgency around 
this, and we are paying attention daily to what we read and 
hear, and I am happy to keep dialoguing with you on this, 
absolutely.
    Ms. Waters. If, in fact, any of these rat-infested 
apartments are owned by the Kushner family, would you be 
hesitant to investigate them and take a look because of who 
they belong to?
    Ms. Oliver Davis. We are not hesitant to look into any 
allegations, especially in this arena. That is not how we 
operate. We are completely independent and it does not factor 
in.
    Ms. Waters. Have you ever followed up on rat-infested 
apartments?
    Ms. Oliver Davis. In general?
    Ms. Waters. Anywhere.
    Ms. Oliver Davis. In general? Well, I think that is a 
pretty common thing that we hear about, frankly, in the course 
of our audits and investigations. It is not unusual.
    Ms. Waters. The reason I raise these questions is because 
when we deal with housing we find that so many people are 
undermined, under taken care of. We find that people in high 
places do not get investigated, that we know about thousands of 
apartments in this country that are infected where nothing is 
going on from any Inspectors General.
    It sounds as if you do not know anything about what you do 
with rat-infested apartments owned by anybody. Is that right?
    Ms. Oliver Davis. Well, when it comes to those type of 
allegations, we reflect them in our audit work. We talk about 
how HUD is responding to those type of things. Like, for 
instance, we have done two audits recently talking about how 
HUD is dealing with both life-threatening situations and non-
life-threatening situations.
    Chairman Davidson. The gentlelady's time has expired.
    Ms. Waters. Thank you.
    Chairman Davidson. It is now time for members to make their 
way to the floor. As a reminder, we will immediately resume the 
hearing after votes.
    The committee stands in recess.
    [Recess.]
    Chairman Davidson. The Committee on Housing and Insurance 
will come to order.
    I now recognize the gentleman from Wisconsin, Mr. 
Fitzgerald, for 5 minutes of questions.
    Mr. Fitzgerald. Thank you, Mr. Chair. I am going to go 
quickly here, so bear with me.
    I am sure you are aware the Administrative Procedure Act 
defines a rule as an agency statement that is, quote, of 
general or particular applicability and future effect designed 
to implement, interpret, or prescribe law or policy.
    FHFA's bi-merge requirement would affect participants in 
the housing finance market. It also is a major change in policy 
from the longstanding tri-merge requirement.
    I am concerned that under Director Thompson's leadership 
the FHFA seems to be hiding kind of behind their role as the 
conservator of Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac to skirt requirements of 
the American Planning Association (APA).
    Mr. Tomney, does your office have any plans to investigate 
the FHFA and whether or not they are following APA with its 
policy change announcements?
    Mr. Tomney. Thank you for the question.
    We have not done work in that specific space. As I said to 
the chairman earlier today, we are currently engaged on a risk 
analysis leading into future products and so, hearing from 
stakeholders like yourself today is certainly something we will 
be looking at, and we are happy to work with you, and stay 
tuned.
    Mr. Fitzgerald. Thank you.
    Former Director Mark Calabria issued a proposed rule of 
prior approval for enterprise products proposed rule. That was 
subsequently finalized by Director Thompson. This rule is an 
important guardrail, as you know, to ensure that the GSEs do 
not inappropriately expand their footprint in the housing 
market and displace true private capital.
    FHFA's 2023 report to Congress noted that between April 28, 
2023, and April 28, 2024, during that year FHFA completed its 
review of ten new activities and, based on factors set forth in 
the regulation, determined that three should be treated as new 
products that merit public notice and comment.
    Do you plan to issue a report assessing compliance with 
prior approval for enterprise products final rule?
    Mr. Tomney. It is certainly something we are looking at. We 
have not made that decision yet, but I am certainly familiar 
with the topic that you are speaking about, and it is going to 
be a continued topic for us moving forward.
    Mr. Fitzgerald. Last Friday, the FHFA conditionally 
approved a pilot for Freddie Mac to purchase closed-end second 
mortgages, a proposal that I guess you could say was opposed by 
Members of Congress and the industry and some consumer groups 
as well.
    Will you issue a report on the pilot to determine whether 
the objectives of the pilot were met and that FHFA fully 
adhered to the regulation?
    Mr. Tomney. Thank you.
    It is certainly something we are considering and will be 
speaking about in the coming weeks as we plan our future 
products.
    Mr. Fitzgerald. IG audits of the Community Development 
Block Grant Disaster Recovery Program have determined that the 
time to deliver program funds to grant recipients varied 
greatly between 20O1 and 2022 and trended upwards.
    This funding has always been implemented pursuant to 
appropriations language, which makes changes to the underlying 
Community Development Block Grant (CDBG) statutory 
requirements.
    To Ms. Davis, how does the discrepancy between CDBG 
requirements and appropriations language affect the timeline 
for allocating CDBG direct funds?
    Ms. Oliver Davis. Well, thank for that question.
    I think the complications with Community Development Block 
Grant Disaster Recovery (CDBG-DR) are the simple fact that the 
program does not have permanent authorization, so it does not 
have as much predictability.
    We have long sought permanent authorization. We have seen 
progress. We have had our previous two Secretaries, both former 
Secretary Carson and former Secretary Fudge, endorse that, say 
they support permanent authorization.
    We have seen progress at the Department. They now have a 
consolidated notice that they issue. Sometimes grantees are 
working at multiple notices at any given time while in the 
process of having an urgent need trying to execute funds, 
trying to build capacity.
    Mr. Fitzgerald. How could they make that process more 
efficient.
    Ms. Oliver Davis. Permanent authorization would certainly 
help. It would certainly help with the timeliness and the 
deliverability of the funds. It would.
    Mr. Fitzgerald. What do you think about State and local 
governments taking on a larger share of the mitigation?
    Ms. Oliver Davis. Well, we need to make sure we are 
ensuring that there is proper monitoring and we are assisting 
the subrecipients, because it never just stops with the 
grantees. This is a very decentralized process.
    Mr. Fitzgerald. Very good.
    Last year, the FHFA undertook a comprehensive review of the 
Federal Home Loan Banks, calling it the first such review in 
over 90-year history of the Federal Home Loan Banks (FHLB) 
system, a statement that kind of ignores the multiple times 
that Congress has reviewed and made statutory changes to the 
system. We are kind of use to that, I guess, in Congress.
    The report calls for several changes to the system, 
including to its mission and usage.
    Has the Inspector General, Mr. Tomney, has the Inspector 
General reviewed the FHFA's mandate to make such changes absent 
clear congressional directives to do so?
    Mr. Tomney. Thank you for the question.
    I am certainly familiar with the report.
    Chairman Davidson. The gentleman's time has expired. I ask 
you to respond in writing to the question.
    Mr. Fitzgerald. Very good. Thank you.
    Chairman Davidson. I thank the gentleman.
    The gentlewoman from Michigan, Ms. Tlaib, is now recognized 
for 5 minutes.
    Ms. Tlaib. Thank you so much, Mr. Chair.
    I want to talk about lead exposure within HUD.
    Inspector General Davis, we have a saying in my district: A 
child cannot learn if they are hungry. Also, a child cannot 
really learn, cannot thrive, if they are being poisoned, being 
exposed to lead and so much more.
    In Detroit, I know 90 percent of the housing stock was 
constructed before 1980, and that is only about 2 years after 
lead-based paint was banned. As of 2020, we have learned that 
more than one in twenty children in Detroit tested positive for 
elevated blood lead levels.
    So this is an issue of all types of housing, even in the 
private industry where I think it is like 20 percent of private 
housing units alone have also lead-based hazards.
    So, Inspector General Davis, can you discuss some of your 
recommendations? Because even though the Biden Administration 
has announced a tremendous amount of investment in lead 
abatement, implementation matters, and we just have not seen it 
on the ground.
    Can you discuss some of the recommendations OIG has had for 
HUD in terms of lead-based hazards in public housing?
    Ms. Oliver Davis. Well, thank you so much for drawing 
attention to this issue.
    This is part of my environmental justice initiative that I 
released last year. We have been working very closely with the 
Department of Justice. They have actually included us in their 
environmental justice policy. We have been working so closely 
over time now.
    In terms of lead, we have made a number of priority 
recommendations that remain open that we think will make a 
difference.
    First and foremost, we want the Department to get their 
arms around the problem. We want them to understand the number 
of units that might potentially have lead and that is so that 
they can adequately resource their oversight of that issue.
    We are also looking at some of the tools they have in place 
to track elevated blood lead levels like you are talking about. 
They have a tool in place, but we know there are variances in 
it. For instance, we see elevated blood lead levels (EBLLs) 
concentrated in certain States.
    We know that, to your point, that housing stock is old 
throughout the country. So it would be unusual to see just 
certain States have a higher level of EBLL. So we think they 
need to address that issue.
    We are also----
    Ms. Tlaib. Did you look at the Capital Fund formula at all?
    Ms. Oliver Davis. I am sorry?
    Ms. Tlaib. Capital Fund formula grants.
    Go ahead and finish your thought, because I do want to talk 
to you about that, because even when we do find it, right, I 
mean, we are great at studying and finding out that there is a 
problem.
    I know for HUD estimates I think addressing any health 
hazards in public housing is about 15,000 per unit, but the 
Capital Fund Formula Grant Program are less than 25 percent of 
that amount on average.
    Ms. Oliver Davis. Anything that we can do to combat this 
problem, I would be willing to talk to you further about, 
certainly.
    Ms. Tlaib. Yes, I think that is something to look at, 
because, again, we can keep throwing money at it because we 
know there is a problem, but on the ground, the way we are 
doing it, I do not know if it has actually been effective.
    Switching gears for just a moment, Inspector General 
Tomney. FHFA is responsible for ensuring enterprises and 
Federal Home Loan Banks operate in a safe and sound manner. 
Climate-related risks impact the enterprise and FHL Bank 
mortgage loan portfolio's investments.
    For example, the Congressional Budget Office (CBO) 
estimates that homes with federally backed mortgages already 
face an annual flood damage of 9.4 billion. I mean, I saw one 
of my neighbors, a very small neighborhood in my community, 
being flooded almost four times just in one summer.
    Has FHFA made progress on recommended actions to 
incorporate climate-related risks with what you have looked at?
    Mr. Tomney. Thank you for the question.
    We have certainly looked at disaster risk and the portfolio 
for some time now. We have issued a white paper on the topic. 
We are actually conducting a review right now of the flood 
insurance compliance to ensure that both Fannie and Freddie are 
ensuring that properties within a flood zone have the proper 
insurance.
    So that is underway right now. I am happy to report on that 
in the coming----
    Ms. Tlaib. Is that, when you all review, is flood mapping 
something you look at?
    Mr. Tomney. We do not. Our auditors and evaluators will 
ensure that----
    Ms. Tlaib. It is still connected, though, Inspector 
General. I mean, when you talk about access to insurance, one 
of the things that I hear from my constituents is the flood 
maps that the Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA) uses 
are so outdated.
    Mr. Tomney. What is interesting is that historically Fannie 
and Freddie, because of the mandatory flood insurance, have not 
had a lot of exposure. Their risk tends to lie elsewhere, but I 
think as flood zones change and need to be reconsidered, there 
could be more risk in the future there.
    Ms. Tlaib. Thank you both.
    Chairman Davidson. I thank the gentlewoman.
    The gentleman from Nebraska, Mr. Flood, is now recognized 
for 5 minutes.
    Mr. Flood. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    I would like to start with FHFA's approval of a couple of 
potentially worrying private programs. The FHFA's approval of 
Freddie Mac's proposal to purchase second mortgages and their 
Fannie Mae title acceptance pilot are both potentially 
problematic ways of pushing the GSEs into other private markets 
that have nothing to do with their core mission.
    As we know, Inspectors General are not necessarily in a 
policymaking role, but they are a good source of oversight, and 
in some cases we have questions about whether FHFA is following 
its own rules.
    In a Senate Banking hearing, Director Thompson indicated 
that the pilot did not have to go through the products rule 
because it was a, quote, unquote, credit underwriting decision.
    Mr. Tomney, could the OIG review instances where FHFA 
bypassed the prior approval for enterprise products rule by 
labeling a GSE program simply a, quote, unquote, credit 
underwriting decision?
    Mr. Tomney. Thank you for the question.
    We have not looked at that, particularly since the new rule 
was finalized last year. We are currently going through our 
process to plan new products in the coming months and toward 
the end of the year, and this topic is one I am familiar with, 
and we are certainly going to keep talking about it.
    Mr. Flood. Well, thank you.
    It would be exceptionally unnerving if the FHFA could use 
this, quote, unquote, credit underwriting decision to excuse--
to avoid compliance with the new products rule. Frankly, you 
could classify any number of activities as related to credit 
underwriting. Where does the loophole end, is one of my 
questions.
    The GSEs are already housing behemoths that have their 
hands in all parts of our housing ecosystem. If they are able 
to offer new products without even going through the new 
products rule, then we are going to see them continue to 
expand.
    Everyone on this committee is well aware that the GSEs are 
not fully private entities. They are still in conservatorship. 
If they are interested in expanding into new markets, they 
should be spun out of conservatorship first.
    They cannot have their cake and eat it too by remaining in 
place with implicit Federal backing and also cannibalize 
existing markets that have nothing to do with their charter.
    Neither the pilot nor the second mortgage pilot have 
anything to do with expanding access to housing or affordable 
housing. In fact, the second mortgage pilot could run directly 
contrary to those goals by speeding up inflationary pressures 
that are already making our housing market incredibly 
expensive.
    I would like to briefly pivot to HUD.
    Last month we had two witnesses testify regarding waste and 
fraud at the public housing authorities. In both cases, the 
people that came to testify in front of the committee 
experienced retaliation for telling their stories.
    My understanding is that Congress already passed a law 
protecting against this kind of retaliation for contractors, 
subcontractors, grantees, and subgrantees. That statute is 
Title 41, Section 4712 of the United States Code.
    Ms. Davis, would public housing authorities which receive 
Federal appropriations be subject to those protections from 
reprisal?
    Ms. Oliver Davis. Yes, they should be. They should fall 
under 4712 as employees of a grantee.
    Mr. Flood. I know there has been an issue with amending 
contracts before and after the passage of this law in 2013. In 
the case of our witnesses last month, one was actually hired 
well after the 2013 cutoff. That individual indicated they were 
not aware of any whistleblower protections in place for them.
    For someone, particularly someone who is not a Federal 
employee, how are they made aware that these anti-reprisal 
rules apply to them?
    Ms. Oliver Davis. That should fall within the 
responsibility of the Department as the contractual 
relationship and the grantee relationship stand.
    Mr. Flood. Okay.
    Do you have any data on how many times the OIG office has 
actually pursued a legitimate whistleblower anti-reprisal 
claim? Like, how many times has an investigation resulted in a 
successful outcome for the whistleblower?
    Ms. Oliver Davis. I do not have that data.
    That said, I am certain the committee knows how important 
whistleblowers are both to you, to your constituents, certainly 
to every IG in their work and so, we have reflected the 
limitations that we have with the Housing Assistance Payments 
(HAP) contracts in the recent management alert, but I do not 
have the specific data about the numbers for you.
    Mr. Flood. All right. Thank you very much.
    With that, Mr. Chairman, I yield back.
    Chairman Davidson. I thank the gentleman.
    The gentlewoman from Texas, Ms. Garcia, is now recognized 
for 5 minutes.
    Ms. Garcia. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    I want to thank both of the witnesses for being here today, 
and thank you for your good work.
    I want to start by first clarifying some of the comments 
that were made earlier by some of my colleagues.
    It did not surprise me that both of you were not aware of 
any Hatch Act--direct Hatch Act violations at public housing or 
properties owned or financed by your organizations and it did 
not surprise me that you were not aware of any harvesting of 
any voters.
    It seems to me something that the secretary of State of 
Mississippi said in response to the President's recent 
executive order. In fact, he was afraid, he said, of--well, I 
am not going to use the word. I call them undocumented 
immigrants. Others use some inhumane terms that begin with 
``I'' and also ``convicted felons.''
    Are you all, either one of you, aware--just a yes or no, I 
do not want to hear about expertise or anything, just yes or 
no--are you aware of any allegations or complaints having been 
made to any one of your agencies, either directly or 
indirectly, about voter fraud or voter harvesting or Hatch Act 
violations?
    Mr. Tomney. No.
    Ms. Oliver Davis. No.
    Ms. Garcia. No. Well, I am not surprised, because I am not 
sure that anybody can cite any. Certainly this secretary of 
State did not. Obviously, it has gotten some of my colleagues' 
attention.
    The other one that struck me was that someone suggested 
that Biden, referring to the President of the United States, 
was going around handing out voter cards--again, to 
undocumented immigrants--and handing out driver's licenses.
    Are you all aware of that happening at all at any one of 
your facilities?
    Mr. Tomney. No.
    Ms. Oliver Davis. No.
    Ms. Garcia. Well, I am sure you are not, because, in fact, 
President Biden cannot hand out driver's licenses. That is 
something that the States do. It is a privilege to drive in 
these States and it is up to the States. So the President has 
nothing to do with it.
    Certainly I do not think anyone would intentionally give an 
unauthorized immigrant, knowing that they are not citizens, a 
voter registration card. I mean, that is against all rules, or 
at least the rules in my State in Texas.
    So it seems to me that all this is just a lot of nonsense 
to distract from the real housing crisis and the affordable 
housing crisis that is going around in America.
    The last thing I did want to clarify is that my colleagues 
need to remember that the Housing and Community Development Act 
of 1980 does allow eligible mixed status families to apply for 
housing.
    Again, it is mixed status families. In other words, someone 
has to be a citizen to apply. So I just want to make sure that 
we do not mix apples and oranges here.
    The housing crisis really is about affordability, and it is 
important that people that are eligible for any of this housing 
are people that are, of course, first eligible, because then 
hopefully it helps us with the prices on other housing.
    I know in Harris County, where I live, Hispanic home 
ownership has grown by 47 percent since 2010. However, Black 
home ownership has been declining. So that too is a very 
serious issue.
    The affordability gap in this area alone has grown by 275 
percent. So it is not getting better, it is getting worse, and 
that is what we should be focused on.
    In my county, the affordability is benchmarked by 
affordable for someone earning a house--earning household of 
$100,000 a year. Get real. That is not really the average 
person, at least not in my district.
    So what are we doing to promote equitable access to home 
ownership for prospective home buyers?
    I will start with you, ma'am.
    Ms. Oliver Davis. Well, HUD has a number of ways that they 
are encouraging home ownership. Certainly, FHA extends access 
to credit to eligible lenders, and they have some policies they 
have rolled out in order to encourage home ownership.
    What we do in our oversight is look at the eligibility 
requirements and ensure that they are being met so that they do 
not put the fund at risk. We have made priority recommendations 
on large group of loans, things like individuals that have 
delinquent tax debt, individuals who perhaps are subject to a 
Federal offset because of child support.
    We think that is a way to protect the fund, and that is the 
way to help the Department to continue to extend access to 
eligible homeowners, like you said.
    They also do counseling before and after the purchase of a 
home. We have some ongoing work there to see if we can judge 
the performance of that counseling that HUD offers and how well 
it serves the individuals and if they have performance goals 
around that, whether or not they are being met.
    We have grants, certainly, that are being extended. Puerto 
Rico home buyers program is one that encourages home ownership.
    Chairman Davidson. The gentlewoman's time has expired. I 
would ask Ms. Oliver Davis to just respond further in writing 
if you would like to continue to follow up.
    I thank the gentlewoman from Texas.
    Ms. Garcia. Thank you.
    Chairman Davidson. Now another gentlelady from Texas, Ms. 
De La Cruz, is recognized for 5 minutes.
    Ms. De La Cruz. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you to 
our witnesses for being here today. I do appreciate it.
    I welcome today's hearing as part of this committee's 
effort to restore consistent and annual oversight of our 
Nation's housing regulators. This oversight is critical to 
ensuring the agencies under our jurisdiction focus solely on 
their core missions.
    In line with our committee's 50-to-zero vote in support of 
my legislation, H.R. 7280, which is the HUD Transparency Act, I 
continue to advocate for the passage of this important piece of 
bipartisan legislation.
    What it does is it requires the Inspector General to 
testify before Congress annually. You are aware of it. Although 
it is not in place right now, I really appreciate your 
appearance today before us. So thank you for coming before us.
    Ms. Oliver Davis and Mr. Tomney, earlier this year we had 
the former HUD Secretary before this committee, and a lot of 
this was brought up concerning waste, fraud, and abuse.
    The HUD Secretary made a statement that really disturbed 
me, and what she said was, in part, I quote, I wish someone 
would tell me where the waste, fraud, and abuse is.
    Wow.
    I think the work you have both published tells us--or tells 
the former Secretary--exactly where and how much misconduct has 
taken place and is currently taking place.
    So my question to both of you is quite simple. What role do 
whistleblowers play in the work that you do to uncover this 
waste, fraud, and abuse?
    We will start with Mr. Tomney.
    Mr. Tomney. Thank you for the question.
    Whistleblowers and people coming forth are very important 
to us. We have our hotline that receives dozens and hundreds of 
tips throughout the year. There are all types of different 
mechanisms for folks, including hearings like this, to be 
educated on exactly what an OIG does.
    It is very important. Our Office of Investigations has done 
great work in following the fraud, waste, and abuse that has 
been reported.
    Ms. De La Cruz. Ms. Oliver Davis, do you agree with his 
statement?
    Ms. Oliver Davis. Oh, certainly. They are essential to us. 
They see and hear things that we simply cannot.
    Ms. De La Cruz. Would you say that the HUD Secretary was 
aware of these statements, of the things that they have seen 
and have reported back?
    Ms. Oliver Davis. I know that the Department is aware of 
whistleblowers, and I know they are aware of the importance of 
whistleblowers in our work.
    We issued a management alert recently stating that 
employees of contractors that serve under HAP contracts are not 
being recognized for potential protections under the 
Whistleblower Act in HUD.
    So that is something that we are raising awareness within 
the Department. It is something that is very important.
    Ms. De La Cruz. It would be fair to say that the HUD 
Secretary would be aware that there is waste, fraud, and abuse, 
correct?
    Ms. Oliver Davis. I believe so. I believe that is right.
    Ms. De La Cruz. Thank you.
    With that, Ms. Oliver Davis, along those lines, I also want 
to bring up a management report that you issued to the then-
Deputy Secretary, and now Acting Secretary Todman, in May 2023 
after the HUD OIG identified that there was a significant gap 
in whistleblower protections for contractor employees pre-2013 
that do not include congressionally enacted anti-retaliation 
provisions, referred to as Section 4712.
    Could you tell us some of the recommendations that you have 
for this?
    Ms. Oliver Davis. Yes, absolutely.
    One of the recommendations we have is that the Department 
get their arms around the scope of this problem. We identified 
it in the context of HAP contracts. There are thousands.
    I am fearful that perhaps this is also a present problem 
throughout HAP's portfolio. We are asking HUD to attend to that 
and to let us know.
    We are also asking HUD to go to their partners that have 
these contracts in place and ask them to consent to amend the 
contract to protect the very contract employees that they are 
employing.
    Ms. De La Cruz. Thank you. I yield my time.
    Chairman Davidson. Thank you, Ms. De La Cruz.
    The gentleman from Nevada, Mr. Horsford, is now recognized 
for 5 minutes.
    Mr. Horsford. Thank you to the chairman and to the ranking 
member, and thank you to our witnesses for appearing to discuss 
your work today.
    Your offices are crucial as we continue to work to address 
the glaring lack of safe, clean, and, most importantly, 
affordable housing throughout the country.
    In my home State of Nevada, we are bearing the brunt of 
this country's affordable housing crisis as low-income renters 
in Las Vegas and southern Nevada face the most severe shortage 
in the country.
    There are only 13 affordable and available rental homes for 
every 100 households living in southern Nevada, according to 
the National Low Income Housing Coalition's 2024 Gap Report.
    During the current shortage of available housing, the most 
vulnerable are compelled to compete for the severely limited 
supply, which leads to seniors and working families having to 
pay nearly half of their monthly income on rent.
    At the same time, those payments do not go nearly as far as 
they used to for folks who are looking to own their own homes.
    Since 2022, the average monthly mortgage payment throughout 
southern Nevada has increased an astounding 47 percent.
    At events all across my district, I hear from constituents, 
really across the entire income distribution, who are 
struggling to find a way to put a roof over their head and to 
know that priority is important to all of us and to HUD.
    The work that your offices undertake is vital to that 
mission as your oversight ensures that we are maximizing the 
efficiency of every dollar that we spend to enhance our 
Nation's affordable housing stock.
    Additionally, I want to applaud your recent efforts on 
prioritizing tenant safety and keeping a close eye on 
property's ability to handle emergency preparers, which will 
ensure that people are not just housed but that they can do so 
with dignity.
    However, before we can even get to that point, we need to 
have a data-driven understanding of how to best efficiently 
deploy the limited resources that we invest in affordable 
housing.
    That is why my legislation, the Housing Market Transparency 
Act, would empower HUD to collect and centralize tenant-focused 
data, such as habitability standards, as well the most recent 
inspection data for HUD-assisted properties.
    Inspector General Davis, would you please discuss some of 
the strategies that your team would be better able to implement 
to mitigate potential hazards and address inefficiencies if HUD 
kept a centralized repository for this health and safety 
information from State housing agencies?
    Ms. Oliver Davis. We have touched on a very problem part of 
HUD's portfolio in rental assistance. We are looking constantly 
not only at the lack of units available and the vouchers that 
go unused, but also, as you have pointed out, the safe and 
sanitary issues that seem to permeate HUD's portfolio.
    We are looking not only at HUD's oversight with respect to 
each of these in making recommendations, but we are actually 
looking beyond HUD at the grantee level, looking at living 
conditions within each of the program areas.
    Mr. Horsford. What other data points would you recommend 
HUD begin collecting to inform your efforts to provide safe 
housing and to continue HUD's efforts around tenant 
protections?
    Ms. Oliver Davis. Well, as I mentioned earlier, we still do 
not have an accurate account of lead and how it affects the 
housing portfolio. We do not actually know where lead is in the 
portfolio, and lead is a huge problem, of course, for young 
people under 6.
    I think we are looking and talking a lot about voucher 
utilization, that is a big thing. We have learned that the 
Veterans Affairs Supportive Housing (VASH) program, the PHAs 
are having some difficulty making sure the vouchers are 
utilized to the best of their ability, to see that our veterans 
are housed.
    HUD is working on optimizing the voucher program in 
general. I think we need to look beyond those efforts at the 
performance of that program, the long term, and see how it is 
serving the public.
    Mr. Horsford. Thank you.
    I just wanted to close by also raising that my bill would 
also address collecting information around consumer lending 
data. I want to commend the ranking member, Mr. Cleaver, 
because he and I led a letter demanding answers to reporting 
that the Navy Federal Credit Union had engaged in potentially 
discriminatory lending practices by approving Black applicants 
at significantly lower rates.
    I know we are still working to fully underscore the racial 
impact of that, and I hope that my colleagues on this committee 
would join with us and cosponsor the Housing Market 
Transparency Act. It is good legislation.
    With that, I yield back.
    Chairman Davidson. Thank you, Mr. Horsford.
    The gentleman from New York, Mr. Lawler, is now recognized 
for 5 minutes.
    Mr. Lawler. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    Housing affordability is a serious crisis in our Nation 
right now. We are over 6.5 million units underbuilt at the 
moment, with mortgage rates at multi-decade highs, limited 
supply, and continued supply chain and construction issues.
    For many, it is the most difficult time to purchase a home 
in a generation.
    These, among other factors, have forced many potential 
homebuyers into the rental market, driving up rental demand and 
prices with it.
    At such a critical time and so many families struggling to 
get by, so many vulnerable and low-income Americans are relying 
on access to decent, safe, and sanitary housing from Public 
Housing Authorities.
    That is why your offices are so crucial and it is so 
important to have you here today and to make sure your work is 
being seen.
    It is horrifying but so important to be hearing of these 
instances of waste, fraud, corruption, and abuse, and issues 
causing HUD's inability to provide decent, safe, and sanitary 
housing.
    The New York City Housing Authority is by far the largest 
public housing authority in the Nation, consisting of almost 
180,000 apartments. As such, it received over $2.8 billion of 
Federal funding in 2023 through a range of different Federal 
programs.
    New York City Housing Authority (NYCHA) has a long history 
of mismanagement and corruption, which has created unsafe and 
unacceptable living conditions for thousands of residents.
    Inspector General Oliver Davis, I mentioned last year when 
you appeared here that I was pleased to see the role you and 
your team played in the arrest of 70 current and former NYCHA 
employees for a variety of offenses as part of one of the 
largest pay-to-play schemes in history.
    Following up on that, what actions can HUD take to further 
compel NYCHA to make serious and sustainable reforms?
    Ms. Oliver Davis. Well, we have a whole host of priority 
recommendations in our portfolio that apply to PHAs in general 
which would also apply to NYCHA. They need to hold NYCHA 
accountable in that way. They need to work with the monitor who 
is in place to get data on the present circumstances and then 
hold their feet to the fire with those outstanding 
recommendations.
    I also think, as we go forward, the implementation of 
National Standards for the Physical Inspection of Real Estate 
(NSPIRE), while it is good in theory, we will all be anxious to 
see how it rolls out and to see if it does answer all these 
problems that are known in the public housing arena.
    Mr. Lawler. What lessons can we learn from the failures of 
NYCHA to prevent similar corruption and lawlessness at other 
housing authorities?
    Ms. Oliver Davis. I think fraud risk management is 
something that we have been doing a lot of work in, and we are 
in fact in the process of doing a fraud risk management audit 
at NYCHA.
    Certainly, PHAs need some flexibilities, but they have to 
have some controls in place and they have to have some 
guardrails that people cannot twist through. I am hoping that 
audit will be very beneficial certainly to NYCHA and to other 
PHAs.
    Mr. Lawler. So to that end, obviously in addition to the 
rampant mismanagement, waste, and corruption, HUD requires PHAs 
like NYCHA to address life-threatening exigent health and 
safety issues identified in inspections within 24 hours.
    How is HUD monitoring and tracking whether PHAs are 
actually adhering to inspection results and correcting these 
serious health deficiencies in units?
    Ms. Oliver Davis. This is one of our priority 
recommendations that comes from an audit we did of HUD's 
oversight of PHAs and how they are dealing with corrective 
action following Real Estate Assessment Center (REAC) 
inspections. It is inconsistent, it is sometimes nonexistent, 
sometimes they are not getting the documentation.
    In addition to the results from REAC, they are not ensuring 
that self-inspections take place. That is a very important 
thing that we have in place because REAC only does a percentage 
or a sample of units.
    Mr. Lawler. Are there any consequences when they are not 
meeting the 24-hour requirement?
    Ms. Oliver Davis. That is a good question. I would need to 
look into what consequences.
    Of course HUD always has the ability to hold them 
accountable. In this space we have difficulties because we, 
again, to your point about the housing crisis, we only have 
some units that are available.
    I think often HUD is reluctant sometimes to hold people 
accountable because they do not have other places to put 
people.
    We also have instances where we just do not have the 
capacity. We see capacity issues in that way as well. We see 
inconsistencies in the field holding PHAs accountable.
    Mr. Lawler. In terms of field, I mean, has HUD's field 
staff monitored PHA's self-inspection requirements? Are people 
going in and doing monitoring in the field?
    Ms. Oliver Davis. I do not know if they are actually going 
in person. There is some monitoring that is taking place but it 
is inconsistent. That is why we are calling for a nationwide 
inspection standard and that is why I think the NSPIRE rule 
could be helpful, but we need to see how it is going to 
perform.
    Mr. Lawler. Thank you for your work.
    I yield back.
    Chairman Davidson. I thank the gentleman from New York.
    The gentleman from South Carolina, Mr. Timmons, is now 
recognized for 5 minutes.
    Mr. Timmons. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    I want to thank both of the witnesses for being here today.
    Inspector General Tomney, you may be aware that earlier 
this year the White House directed FHFA to revive a pilot 
program relating to title insurance waivers.
    While I hold concerns with the end goals of the pilot 
program itself, I hold even deeper concerns as to how Doma 
Holdings, the chosen vendor for the program, obtained this 
contract.
    To recap, when FHFA was considering this pilot last year 
Doma was on the brink of bankruptcy and faced potential 
delisting from the New York Stock Exchange. Furthermore, the 
company's technology is not innovative and ranks low within the 
industry.
    The only distinguishing feature of Doma appears to be its 
political connections, notably with former Treasury Secretary 
Larry Summers serving on its board and being a shareholder.
    Despite Director Thompson's recent claim that no vendors 
have been chosen for the pilot program, my office has reviewed 
documents shared with mortgage lenders by Fannie Mae which 
explicitly named Doma Holdings as the vendor for their new 
title waiver pilot program.
    I am happy to provide these documents to you and your staff 
if you are unaware of their existence.
    Credit is due to Director Thompson. When I inquired about 
this questionable arrangement last summer, she testified that a 
partnership between Fannie Mae and Doma, quote, does not sound 
safe or sound, end quote.
    Shortly after our hearing, she contacted the CEO of Fannie 
Mae and instructed her to suspend the pilot program because of 
the hearing. Months later, that decision was overridden by the 
White House.
    So, Mr. Tomney, this is my question. As the FHFA's 
Inspector General, I urge you to investigate what led this 
pilot program to be revived despite FHFA's objections just last 
year. The public deserves to know who at the White House 
directed FHFA to revive this program and whether Larry Summers 
communicated with administration officials.
    The question is, are you currently investigating this and 
if not, will you commit to doing so?
    Mr. Tomney. I would certainly welcome you sharing that 
information with my staff.
    As I have mentioned a short time ago, we are currently 
planning our future products. To the extent that there would be 
any open investigations, it is nothing that I would be able to 
speak to in this setting.
    I welcome you and your staff to provide that information to 
mine. I appreciate it.
    Mr. Timmons. We will get you those documents.
    One more point. Additionally, a recent Politico article 
reported irregularities in Doma's stock price immediately prior 
to President Biden's announcement of the title insurance waiver 
program during his State of the Union address.
    While I am confident that the Securities and Exchange 
Commission (SEC) is examining this apparent insider trading, is 
the FHFA investigating whether nonpublic information was shared 
with Mr. Summers or other members of the Doma board?
    Mr. Tomney. Again, I do not have any information on that. 
Again, I welcome you sharing anything with my staff.
    Mr. Timmons. Thank you.
    This is just really troubling. I mean, we will get you the 
Politico article and you can see how the stock price jumped 
right before the announcement. The speech was not yet made 
public. The speech was clearly shared within somebody within 
the administration, with the public. That was then traded on. 
It is a huge violation of trust, a huge violation of law.
    What is even worse, in my opinion, is that this program 
should not exist. Like, we will not even talk about the merits 
of the program but the fact that the Biden Administration is 
clearly doing the bidding of political insiders is what causes 
the American people to not have trust in our institutions.
    We have to hold these people accountable. We have to earn 
their trust and this does not earn their trust, it does not 
earn my trust. So I appreciate you looking into it.
    There is not a question about whether the law was broken. 
It does not take a person that prosecuted white collar cases 
for 5 years, like myself, to look at the Politico article and 
look at the clear undue influence that has been clearly--I 
mean, it is shocking that we have not done anything else.
    So I ask you to look into this. I ask you to help restore 
the American people's trust in our institutions. I will get you 
all of this information and thank you again.
    Mr. Chairman, I yield back.
    Chairman Davidson. Thank you, Mr. Timmons.
    I would like to thank our witnesses for your testimony 
today.
    Without objection, I would like to enter the following 
documents into the record, as noted by a handful of people who 
made such motions.
    Chairman Davidson. Without objection, all members will have 
five legislative days within which to submit additional written 
questions for the witnesses to the chairman, which will be 
forwarded to the witnesses for their response.
    I ask our witnesses to please respond as promptly as you 
are able to those questions you could not finish or those 
submitted afterwards.

    [The information referred to can be found in the appendix.]

    So the hearing is now adjourned.

    [Whereupon, at 12:03 p.m., the subcommittee was adjourned.]

                            A P P E N D I X



                             June 26, 2024

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