[House Hearing, 118 Congress]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]


                   EMERGENCY PREPAREDNESS: EXAMINING FED-
                    ERAL, STATE, AND LOCAL COORDINATION IN 
                    COASTAL COMMUNITIES

=======================================================================

                             FIELD HEARING

                               BEFORE THE

                            SUBCOMMITTEE ON
                  EMERGENCY MANAGEMENT AND TECHNOLOGY

                                 OF THE

                     COMMITTEE ON HOMELAND SECURITY
                        HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

                    ONE HUNDRED EIGHTEENTH CONGRESS

                             FIRST SESSION

                               __________

                           NOVEMBER 28, 2023

                               __________

                           Serial No. 118-39

                               __________

       Printed for the use of the Committee on Homeland Security
                                     

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       Available via the World Wide Web: http://www.govinfo.gov/       
       
                              __________

                   U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE                    
56-494 PDF                  WASHINGTON : 2024                    
          
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------       

                      COMMITTEE ON HOMELAND SECURITY

                 Mark E. Green, MD, Tennessee, Chairman
Michael T. McCaul, Texas             Bennie G. Thompson, Mississippi, 
Clay Higgins, Louisiana                  Ranking Member
Michael Guest, Mississippi           Sheila Jackson Lee, Texas
Dan Bishop, North Carolina           Donald M. Payne, Jr., New Jersey
Carlos A. Gimenez, Florida           Eric Swalwell, California
August Pfluger, Texas                J. Luis Correa, California
Andrew R. Garbarino, New York        Troy A. Carter, Louisiana
Marjorie Taylor Greene, Georgia      Shri Thanedar, Michigan
Tony Gonzales, Texas                 Seth Magaziner, Rhode Island
Nick LaLota, New York                Glenn Ivey, Maryland
Mike Ezell, Mississippi              Daniel S. Goldman, New York
Anthony D'Esposito, New York         Robert Garcia, California
Laurel M. Lee, Florida               Delia C. Ramirez, Illinois
Morgan Luttrell, Texas               Robert Menendez, New Jersey
Dale W. Strong, Alabama              Yvette D. Clarke, New York
Josh Brecheen, Oklahoma              Dina Titus, Nevada
Elijah Crane, Arizona
                      Stephen Siao, Staff Director
                  Hope Goins, Minority Staff Director
                       Sean Corcoran, Chief Clerk
                                 ------                                

          SUBCOMMITTEE ON EMERGENCY MANAGEMENT AND TECHNOLOGY

                 Anthony D'Esposito, New York, Chairman
Nick LaLota, New York                Troy A. Carter, Louisiana, Ranking 
Dale W. Strong, Alabama                  Member
Josh Brecheen, Oklahoma              Donald M. Payne, Jr., New Jersey
Mark E. Green, MD, Tennessee (ex     Daniel S. Goldman, New York
    officio)                         Bennie G. Thompson, Mississippi 
                                         (ex officio)
               Diana Bergwin, Subcommittee Staff Director
          Lauren McClain, Minority Subcommittee Staff Director
                            
                            C O N T E N T S

                              ----------                              
                                                                   Page

                               Statements

The Honorable Anthony D'Esposito, a Representative in Congress 
  From the State of New York, and Chairman, Subcommittee on 
  Emergency Management and Technology:
  Oral Statement.................................................     1
  Prepared Statement.............................................     3
The Honorable Troy A. Carter, a Representative in Congress From 
  the State of Louisiana, and Ranking Member, Subcommittee on 
  Emergency Management and Technology:
  Oral Statement.................................................     4
  Prepared Statement.............................................     6
The Honorable Bennie G. Thompson, a Representative in Congress 
  From the State of Mississippi, and Ranking Member, Committee on 
  Homeland Security:
  Oral Statement.................................................     7
  Prepared Statement.............................................     9

                               Witnesses

Mr. Tony Robinson, Region 6 Administrator, Federal Emergency 
  Management Agency, U.S. Department of Homeland Security:
  Oral Statement.................................................    10
  Prepared Statement.............................................    12
Mr. Francisco Sanchez Jr., Associate Administrator, Office of 
  Disaster Recovery and Resilience, U.S. Small Business 
  Administration:
  Oral Statement.................................................    15
  Prepared Statement.............................................    16
Mr. Casey Tingle, Director, Governor's Office of Homeland 
  Security and Emergency Preparedness, State of Louisiana:
  Oral Statement.................................................    18
  Prepared Statement.............................................    20
Mrs. Pamela Gonzales Granger, President/Owner, McBade Engineers & 
  Consultants, LLC:
  Oral Statement.................................................    24
  Prepared Statement.............................................    25

 
      EMERGENCY PREPAREDNESS: EXAMINING FEDERAL, STATE, AND LOCAL 
                  COORDINATION IN COASTAL COMMUNITIES

                              ----------                              


                       Tuesday, November 28, 2023

             U.S. House of Representatives,
                    Committee on Homeland Security,
                      Subcommittee on Emergency Management 
                                            and Technology,
                                                   New Orleans, LA.
    The subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 8:01 a.m. CST, 
Millie M. Charles School of Social Work Auditorium, Southern 
University at New Orleans, 6400 Press Drive, New Orleans, 
Louisiana, Hon. Anthony D'Esposito (Chairman of the 
subcommittee) presiding.
    Present: Representatives D'Esposito, Carter, and Thompson 
(ex officio).
    Mr. D'Esposito. Good morning. The Committee on Homeland 
Security, Subcommittee on Emergency Management and Technology, 
will come to order.
    Without objection, the subcommittee may recess at any 
point.
    The purpose of this hearing is to examine disaster 
mitigation, preparedness, response, and recovery in coastal 
communities. I thank Southern University at New Orleans and 
Ranking Member Carter for hosting the subcommittee today.
    I recognize myself for an opening statement.
    I first want to begin by thanking our witnesses for 
participating in this hearing today. I look forward to hearing 
more about your work to help communities prepare for, respond 
to, and recover from natural disasters and other events that 
impact coastal communities. Thank you for your decision to work 
in this field.
    As a retired NYPD detective and former chief of the Island 
Park Fire Department, I know that working in emergency 
management isn't always glamorous, and it's often a thankless 
job. But I want to tell you that your work and our work does 
matter. Thank you for serving and for being on the front lines 
in people's greatest times of need. We talked about it 
yesterday. It brings out some of the very worst in people, but 
individuals like you, it brings out the very best.
    While we work hard to protect our communities from 
environmental hazards, many of us have seen first-hand how 
powerful hurricanes may leave unspeakable destruction in their 
wake. In the aftermath of Superstorm Sandy, I was serving as 
chief of my hometown in Island Park, and will never forget the 
sense of dire need that followed. An estimated 100,000 homes 
were damaged or destroyed on Long Island alone, but we worked 
hand-in-hand, arm-in-arm with FEMA to rebuild our community.
    As Members of the Subcommittee on Emergency Management and 
Technology, it is important that we examine how State and local 
governments coordinate with Federal agencies, such as FEMA and 
the SBA, to help coastal communities mitigate the unique 
challenges they face and prepare for potential emergencies. 
When the scale of an emergency is beyond what a State can 
handle, the Federal Government must coordinate effectively with 
State officials and local first responders who are already on 
the ground and who know their communities best.
    I look forward to evaluating not only the Federal response 
to natural disasters and FEMA's long-term recovery programs, 
but also how local partners are collaborating to build 
resiliency and mitigate the impacts of natural disasters. 
Historic storms have become too common in recent years, and 
coastal communities must consider how to harden their defenses 
and become more resilient in anticipation of future storms. We 
can't only focus on disaster recovery. We have to ensure that 
our infrastructure is able to withstand the next storm. Doing 
so will prevent continued destruction from happening.
    It is estimated that for every $1 invested in hazard 
mitigation, $6 is saved in disaster recovery. Billions of 
Federal dollars have been appropriated for hazard mitigation 
projects under Building Resilient Infrastructure and 
Communities. I am pleased that there have been many efforts to 
improve vulnerable communities' access to Federal grant 
funding, and I look forward to learning more about how 
Louisiana is utilizing these funds.
    In fact, the enacted Bipartisan Budget Act of 2018 
authorized FEMA to incentivize States to take responsibility 
for their own emergency preparedness through allowing States 
that proactively funded hazard mitigation before the disaster 
to qualify for increased Federal funding after a disaster. 
Considering how critical disaster preparedness and resiliency 
are for coastal communities across the Nation, I hope to learn 
more about resiliency projects in Louisiana and how communities 
are taking advantage of opportunities available to them.
    FEMA also hosts a multitude of preparedness grants, as well 
as hazard mitigation assistance grants, to support first 
responders and protect people and property from future 
disasters in highly at-risk communities. These grants play an 
important role in helping police and fire departments improve 
public safety and strengthen communities' defenses against 
extreme weather events.
    Since State governments and local nonprofits are the first 
to respond, States should maintain and strengthen their state 
of preparedness to avoid becoming dependent on FEMA in the 
aftermath of a storm. However, we must also ensure that Federal 
assistance is available to those who truly need it most.
    Should a catastrophic event occur in the future, effective 
Federal, State, and local coordination is essential for our 
National preparedness and response. As such, the Post-Katrina 
Emergency Management Reform Act of 2006 was enacted 
specifically to address failures during Hurricane Katrina and 
to improve FEMA's role in our national emergency management and 
training.
    Earlier this year, this subcommittee heard from emergency 
management professionals and practitioners about some of the 
difficulties that survivors face in applying the individual 
assistance and--for individual assistance. I look forward to 
hearing about how we can simplify and improve vulnerable 
communities' access to State-wide resources, as well as FEMA's 
individual assistance program and SBA's disaster loan program 
in the aftermath of storms.
    I would like to know how we can make the process easier for 
disadvantaged or vulnerable communities so that they can get 
help they need. How can nonprofits, the private sector, and 
State and local governments better serve their communities so 
FEMA isn't left to pick up the tab? How are they using Federal 
funds already available to them?
    I hope to hear your input to these questions. I know that 
coastal communities take care of one another. While living by 
the coast can come at a cost, millions of Americans call these 
communities their home. It is our duty to serve them well and 
to ensure that they are prepared for whatever could come their 
way.
    Thank you again to the witnesses for being here this 
morning, for your public service, and for serving this great 
Nation.
    [The statement of Chairman D'Esposito follows:]
                Statement of Chairman Anthony D'Esposito
                           November 28, 2023
    I first want to begin by thanking our witnesses for participating 
in this hearing today. I look forward to hearing more about your work 
to help communities prepare for, respond to, and recover from natural 
disasters and other events that impact coastal communities. Thank you 
for your decision to work in this field.
    As a retired NYPD detective and former chief of the Island Park 
Fire Department, I know that working in emergency management isn't 
glamorous, and it's often a thankless job, but I want to tell you that 
your work matters. Thank you for serving, and for being on the front 
lines in peoples' greatest time of need.
    While we work hard to protect our communities from environmental 
hazards, many of us have seen first-hand how powerful hurricanes may 
leave unspeakable destruction in their wake. In the aftermath of 
Superstorm Sandy, I was serving as chief of the Island Park Fire 
Department, and will never forget the sense of dire need that followed. 
An estimated 100,000 homes were damaged or destroyed on Long Island 
alone, but we worked hand-in-hand with the Federal Emergency Management 
Agency (FEMA) to rebuild our community.\1\
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \1\ Madeline Armstrong, Long Beach residents recall Sandy horrors 
10 years later, EYEWITNESS NEWS ABC7, (Oct. 26, 2022), https://
abc7ny.com/long-beach-sandy-superstorm-memories/12380694/
#:?:text=On%20Long%20Island%2C%20about%20100%2C000,and%2013- 
%20people%20were%20killed.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    As Members of the Subcommittee on Emergency Management and 
Technology, it is important that we examine how State and local 
governments coordinate with Federal agencies, such as FEMA and the 
Small Business Administration (SBA) to help coastal communities 
mitigate the unique challenges they face and prepare for potential 
emergencies. When the scale of an emergency is beyond what a State can 
handle, the Federal Government must coordinate effectively with State 
officials and local first responders who are already on the ground, and 
who know their communities best.
    I look forward to evaluating not only the Federal response to 
natural disasters and FEMA's long-term recovery programs, but also how 
local partners are collaborating to build resiliency and mitigate the 
impacts of natural disasters. Historic storms have become too common in 
recent years, and coastal communities must consider how to harden their 
defenses and become more resilient in anticipation of future storms. We 
can't only focus on disaster recovery; we have to ensure that our 
infrastructure is able to withstand the next storm. Doing so will 
prevent continued destruction from happening.
    It is estimated that for every $1 invested in hazard mitigation, $6 
are saved in disaster recovery.\2\ Billions of Federal dollars have 
been appropriated for hazard mitigation projects under the Building 
Resilient Infrastructure and Communities (BRIC) program. I am pleased 
that there have been many efforts to improve vulnerable communities' 
access to Federal grant funding, and I look forward to learning more 
about how Louisiana is utilizing these funds.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \2\ https://www.nibs.org/blog/disaster-resilience-trillion-dollar-
challenge-heres-what-fema-can-do-help.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    In fact, the enacted Bipartisan Budget Act of 2018 authorized FEMA 
to incentivize States to take responsibility for their own emergency 
preparedness through allowing States that proactively funded hazard 
mitigation efforts before the disaster to qualify for increased Federal 
funding after a disaster.\3\ Considering how critical disaster 
preparedness and resiliency are for coastal communities across the 
Nation, I hope to learn more about resiliency projects in Louisiana and 
how communities here are taking advantage of the opportunities 
available to them.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \3\ https://www.nibs.org/blog/disaster-resilience-trillion-dollar-
challenge-heres-what-fema-can-do-help.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    FEMA also hosts a multitude of Preparedness Grants, as well as 
Hazard Mitigation Assistance Grants, to support first responders and 
protect people and property from future disasters in highly at-risk 
communities. These grants play an important role in helping police and 
fire departments improve public safety and strengthen communities' 
defenses against extreme weather events.
    Since State governments and local non-profits are the first to 
respond, States should maintain and strengthen their state of 
preparedness to avoid becoming dependent on FEMA in the aftermath of a 
storm. However, we must also ensure that Federal assistance is 
available to those who truly need it most.
    Should a catastrophic event occour in the future, effective 
Federal, State, and local coordination is essential for our National 
preparedness and response. As such, the Post-Katrina Emergency 
Management Reform Act (PKEMRA) of 2006 was enacted specifically to 
address failures during Hurricane Katrina and to improve FEMA's role in 
our National emergency management and training.\4\
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \4\ https://www.fema.gov/emergency-managers/planning-exercises/nle/
background.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Earlier this year, this subcommittee heard from emergency 
management professionals and practitioners about some of the 
difficulties that survivors face in applying for Individual Assistance. 
I look forward to hearing about how we can simplify and improve 
vulnerable communities' access to State-wide resources, as well as 
FEMA's Individual Assistance (IA) Program and SBA's Disaster Loan 
Program in the aftermath of a severe storm.
    I would like to know--how can we make the process easier for 
disadvantaged communities so that they can get the help they need? How 
can non-profits, the private sector, and State and local governments 
better serve their communities so that FEMA isn't left to pick up the 
tab? How are they using the Federal funds already available to them?
    I hope to hear your input on these questions. I know that coastal 
communities take care of one another; and while living by the coast can 
come at a cost, millions of Americans call these communities their 
home. It is our duty to serve them well and to ensure that they are 
prepared for whatever could come their way. Thank you, again, to our 
witnesses for your public service and for participating in this 
hearing. And with that, I yield back.

    Mr. D'Esposito. I now recognize the Ranking Member of the 
subcommittee for his opening statement.
    Mr. Carter. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    Good morning. I want to welcome everyone to Louisiana's 
Second Congressional District, my home. Today, we gather here 
at Southern University-New Orleans to discuss the topic so many 
New Orleanians are very, very familiar with, and that is 
emergency preparedness.
    I would like to thank Southern University staff and campus 
community for hosting today's event. I'd also like to thank our 
distinguished panel of witnesses here to share your expertise 
to the subcommittee.
    I want to thank Subcommittee Chair D'Esposito, for agreeing 
to hold this hearing in a bipartisan fashion. I want to thank 
Ranking Member Bennie Thompson of the entire Committee of 
Homeland Security for being here. Thank you both for traveling 
from your homes so close after the holidays to be here with us 
for such an important hearing.
    This is--today's hearing is to learn more about the 
challenges and the successes of emergency preparedness in my 
district. I see in the audience we have a whole host of 
individuals, and I thank you for being here.
    I want to particularly recognize the council member whose 
district we're in, Council Member Eugene Green of District 8. 
Thank you for being here, sir.
    New Orleans is at ground zero for so much of the 
conversation on emergency preparedness. Hurricane Katrina was 
one of the worst natural disasters in recent memory in the 
United States. Hurricane Katrina was followed by Hurricane Rita 
just a few weeks later. The hurricanes resulted in loss of life 
and property damage. In the aftermath of the hurricanes, the 
response efforts were scrutinized, and many policies were 
changed for the better.
    There have been many other disasters to hit my district 
too, including Hurricanes Ike and Ida and the historic 
floodings of August 2016. Because of these disasters, we have a 
better understanding of the importance of Federal, State, 
local, and Tribal territorial officials prioritizing emergency 
resources, emergency preparedness to ensure that our 
communities are equipped to respond to disasters quickly and 
recover with dignity.
    The threat posed by climate change makes the conversation 
on preparedness even more important. The effects of climate 
change are being felt worldwide, which includes more frequent 
and severe natural disasters, like hurricanes, droughts, and 
wild fires.
    At the Federal level, investment in mitigation strategies 
have become a priority for the Federal Emergency Management 
Agency, FEMA. I am pleased that the Biden-Harris administration 
has announced nearly $2 billion in grant funding to help 
communities mitigate the impacts of climate change.
    Flooding has increasingly become a concern in Louisiana, 
contributing to the increasing costs of flood insurance 
policies. Louisianians rely on the National Flood Insurance 
Program, NFIP, to offer reasonably-priced coverage. However, 
FEMA's new Risk Rating 2.0 system guts that program and causes 
great challenges. We'll hear more about that today.
    Risk Rating 2.0 result in a 134 percent average increase in 
flood insurance costs for single family homes in Louisiana, 
phased in over time. This policy will leave many Louisianians 
vulnerable to extreme weather events because they simply cannot 
afford to pay these exorbitant costs for flood insurance.
    Another concern facing my constituents is Small Business 
Administration loans. Many of my constituents own businesses, 
and when disasters strike, they have to take out a loan to make 
the repairs and stay afloat. Unfortunately, some of the small 
businesses are still paying loans from years and disasters past 
while we continue to face additional storms and natural 
disasters and having to face the struggles of yet--depending on 
yet another SBA loan.
    I hope to hear from our witnesses today about how we are 
working to make sure that flood insurance does not become a 
luxury that only a few can afford and ways that we can help 
small businesses literally stay afloat.
    Since the terrorist acts of 9/11, emergency preparedness 
has also included providing Federal resources for combating 
threats and acts of violence. The Department of Homeland 
Security's Preparedness Grant Program, which includes Urban 
Area Security Initiatives, State Homeland Security Programs, 
and the Nonprofit Security Grant Program, which helps 
communities prepare for and address threats.
    In 2022, Southern University campus in Baton Rouge is one 
of the many Historically Black Colleges and Universities across 
the country that was targeted with a bomb threat. Making sure 
that the DHS preparedness grants reach HBCUs and other targeted 
places is essential.
    I am proud to advocate for DHS's preparedness grants, and 
hope to hear from our witnesses today on how these programs are 
helping Louisianians.
    Last, I would like to emphasize, as we continue to face 
more frequent and severe emergencies, it is becoming 
increasingly clear that our emergency management systems need 
to prioritize equity. Vulnerable populations are often hit the 
hardest by disasters and oftentimes receive disproportionate 
amount of resources.
    Building equity into emergency management means ensuring 
that all individuals and communities have equal access to 
resources and support before, during, and after the disaster. 
This not only helps to prevent further harm, but it also 
strengthens overall resiliency.
    In May, I joined Ranking Member Thompson as the co-chair of 
the first-ever Congressional Disaster Equity and Building 
Resilience Caucus. The caucus aims to promote equity in 
disaster preparedness and response and provide valuable forums 
to discuss Federal policies that impact the underserved 
communities in the face of disasters.
    Again, I want to thank Southern University, SUNO, for 
hosting our witnesses and participating in today's hearing and 
my colleagues for making time to be here in my district.
    With that, Mr. Chairman, I look forward to hearing from our 
witnesses today on how we can continue to build and support 
emergency preparedness for all of Louisianians.
    Mr. Chairman, I yield back.
    [The statement of Ranking Member Carter follows:]
               Statement of Ranking Member Troy A. Carter
                           November 28, 2023
    I want to welcome everyone to Louisiana's Second Congressional 
District--my home.
    Today, we are gathered at Southern University at New Orleans (SUNO) 
to discuss a topic so many New Orleanians are very familiar with and 
that is emergency preparedness. I would like to thank the Southern 
University staff and campus community for hosting today's hearing.
    I want to thank our distinguished panel of witnesses here to share 
your expertise with the subcommittee. I want to thank Subcommittee 
Chairman D'Esposito for agreeing to hold today's hearing. I, also, want 
to thank all my colleagues for coming to today's hearing to learn more 
about the challenges and successes of emergency preparedness in my 
District.
    New Orleans is ground zero for so much of the conversation on 
emergency preparedness. Hurricane Katrina was one of the worst natural 
disasters in the recent memory of the United States. Hurricane Katrina 
was followed by Hurricane Rita just a few weeks later. The hurricanes 
resulted in loss of life and property damage. In the aftermath of the 
hurricanes, the response efforts were scrutinized and many policies 
were changed for the better.
    There have been many other disasters to hit my District, too, 
including Hurricanes Ike and Ida, and the historic flooding in August 
2016. Because of these disasters, we have a better understanding of the 
importance of Federal, State, local, Tribal, and territorial officials 
prioritizing emergency preparedness to ensure that our communities are 
equipped to respond to disasters quickly and recover with dignity.
    The threat posed by climate change makes the conversation on 
preparedness even more important. The effects of climate change are 
being felt worldwide, which includes more frequent and severe natural 
disasters like hurricanes, droughts, and wildfires. At the Federal 
level, investment in mitigation strategies have become a priority for 
the Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA). I am pleased that the 
Biden administration recently announced nearly $2 billion in grant 
funding to help communities mitigate the impacts of climate change.
    Flooding has increasingly become a concern in Louisiana, 
contributing to the increasing costs of flood insurance policies. 
Louisianians rely on the National Flood Insurance Program (NFIP) to 
offer reasonably-priced coverage. However, FEMA's new Risk Rating 2.0 
system, cuts program. Risk Rating 2.0 will result in a 134 percent 
average increase in flood insurance costs for single-family homes in 
Louisiana, phased in over time. This policy will leave many 
Louisianians vulnerable to extreme weather events because they cannot 
afford to pay for flood insurance.
    Another concern facing my constituents is Small Business 
Administration loans. Many of my constituent's own businesses, and when 
disasters strike, they have to take out loans to make repairs and stay 
afloat. Unfortunately, some of the small businesses are still paying 
loans years after a disaster strikes. I hope to hear from our witnesses 
today about how you are working to make sure that flood insurance does 
not become a luxury that only few can afford and ways to help our small 
businesses.
    Since the terrorists' attacks of 9/11, emergency preparedness has 
also included providing Federal resources for combatting threats and 
acts of violence. The Department of Homeland Security's preparedness 
grant programs, which include the Urban Area Security Initiative 
(UASI), State Homeland Security Program (SHSP), and the Nonprofit 
Security Grant Program (NSGP), which help communities prepare for and 
address threats.
    In 2022, the Southern University campus in Baton Rouge was one of 
many Historically Black Colleges or Universities (HBCUs) across the 
country that was targeted with a bomb threat. Making sure that the DHS 
preparedness grants reach HBCUs and other targeted places is essential. 
I am a proud advocate for the DHS preparedness grants and hope to hear 
from our witnesses today how these programs are helping Louisianians.
    Last, I would like to emphasize, as we continue to face more 
frequent and severe emergencies, it is becoming increasingly clear that 
our emergency management systems need to prioritize equity. Vulnerable 
populations are often hit the hardest by disasters. Building equity 
into emergency management means ensuring that all individuals and 
communities have equal access to resources and support before, during, 
and after a disaster. This not only helps to prevent further harm, but 
also strengthens overall resilience. In May, I joined Ranking Member 
Thompson as a co-chair of the first-ever Congressional Disaster Equity 
and Building Resilience Caucus. The Caucus aims to promote equity in 
disaster preparedness and response and provide a valuable forum to 
discuss Federal policies that impact underserved communities in 
disasters.
    Again, I want to thank Southern University/SUNO for hosting, our 
witnesses for participating in today's hearing, and my colleagues for 
making time to learn about my district.
    With that, I look forward to hearing from our witnesses today on 
how we can continue to build and support emergency preparedness for the 
people of Louisiana.

    Mr. D'Esposito. Well, thank you, Mr. Ranking Member.
    I now recognize the Ranking Member of the full committee 
for his opening statement.
    Mr. Thompson. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.
    Good morning. I want to thank Ranking Member Troy Carter 
for bringing the subcommittee to this Congressional district to 
look at issues regarding emergency preparedness and how the 
Federal Government can better support the needs of coastal 
communities. Ranking Member Carter is a tireless advocate in 
Washington, DC, for the people of the Second District of 
Louisiana, and I'm glad to participate in this important 
hearing.
    I also say it's easy to come to New Orleans when you're 
invited. So I'm glad to be back.
    I want to thank Chairman D'Esposito for agreeing to hold 
today's hearing. I know he represents a coastal district on 
Long Island, New York, and I look forward to a productive 
discussion on issues of shared interest. I'd also like to 
express my appreciation to all the witnesses present here 
today.
    Finally, I'm pleased to be at Southern University in New 
Orleans, a prominent Historically Black University. I'd like to 
thank the university for hosting this hearing and its staff for 
their hospitality. As a double HBCU graduate, I'm always happy 
to come to an HBCU campus.
    With that said, I want to turn to the topic of today's 
hearing. Over the years, we've seen more frequent and powerful 
storms which have caused billions of dollars in damage. In my 
home State of Mississippi, each year since 1980, we have 
averaged about 2.3 disasters crossing the billion dollar mark.
    In 2005, both Mississippi and Louisiana were hit by one of 
the worst natural disasters, Hurricane Katrina, which was then 
followed by Hurricane Rita. The devastation and the lack of 
proper emergency response by local, State, and Federal 
officials during these disasters will forever be imprinted in 
my mind. Thankfully, emergency management has significantly 
improved since Hurricanes Katrina and Rita, due in no small 
part to actions taken based on lessons learned from those 
storms.
    More recently, tornados devastated my home district, 
tragically killing 22 people. FEMA has been present and ready 
to help at every step since the tornado, and we are thankful 
for their assistance.
    Disasters often hit vulnerable populations the hardest, 
including low-income communities, rural areas, racial 
minorities, Tribes, individuals with disabilities, seniors, and 
children. Those with experience in disaster response are well 
aware of the unequal treatment marginalized communities have 
received during Hurricane Katrina. I hope to never see people 
trapped, hungry, and fearing for their lives in the aftermath 
of a disaster because local, State, and Federal officials 
prioritize one group over another.
    Fortunately, the Biden administration is doing more to 
support communities like those in Louisiana and Mississippi, 
which frequently faced unequal impacts of disasters. For 
example, it has included equity as one of the main pillars of 
FEMA's 2022 to 2026 strategic plan.
    The Biden administration has also made long-needed policy 
changes that increased accessibility of FEMA's programs, such 
as expanding allowable ownership documentation to help disaster 
survivors keep land that has been in the family for 
generations.
    As we face more frequent and severe emergencies, it is 
critical that we prioritize equity. The lack of equitable 
resources during a disaster is appalling, which is why I, along 
with Representatives Carter, Titus, and Brian Higgins, created 
the Congressional Disaster Equity and Building Resilience 
Caucus. The caucus provides a valuable forum to discuss Federal 
policies that impact underserved communities in disasters.
    I'm eager to hear from our witnesses today on how we can 
continue to support emergency preparedness for the people of 
Louisiana.
    With that, I thank Ranking Member Carter for having us in 
his district today. I also thank Chairman D'Esposito for 
holding the hearing, and the witnesses for joining us.
    With that, I yield back, Mr. Chair.
    [The statement of Ranking Member Thompson follows:]
             Statement of Ranking Member Bennie G. Thompson
                           November 28, 2023
    I want to thank Ranking Member Troy Carter for bringing the 
subcommittee to his Congressional district to look at issues regarding 
emergency preparedness and how the Federal Government can better 
support the needs of coastal communities. Ranking Member Carter is a 
tireless advocate in Washington, DC, for the people of the 2nd district 
of Louisiana, and I'm glad to participate in this important hearing.
    I also want to thank Chairman D'Esposito for agreeing to hold 
today's hearing. I know he represents a coastal district on Long 
Island, New York, and I look forward to a productive discussion on 
issues of shared interest. I would also like to express my appreciation 
to all the witnesses present here today.
    Finally, I am pleased to be at the Southern University at New 
Orleans, a prominent Historically Black University. I would like to 
thank the university for hosting this hearing and its staff for their 
hospitality.
    With that said, I want to turn to the topic of today's hearing. 
Over the years, we have seen more frequent and powerful storms, which 
have caused billions of dollars in damage. In my home State of 
Mississippi, each year since 1980, we have averaged about 2.3 disasters 
crossing the billion-dollar mark.
    In 2005, both Mississippi and New Orleans were hit by one of the 
worst natural disasters, Hurricane Katrina, which was then followed by 
Hurricane Rita. The devastation and the lack of proper emergency 
response by local, State, and Federal officials during these disasters 
will forever be imprinted in my mind. Thankfully, emergency management 
has significantly improved since Hurricanes Katrina and Rita, due in no 
small part to action taken based on lessons learned from those storms. 
More recently, tornadoes devastated my district and tragically killed 
22 people. FEMA has been present and ready to help at every step since 
the tornado, and we are thankful.
    Disasters often hit vulnerable populations the hardest--including 
low-income communities, rural areas, racial minorities, Tribes, 
individuals with disabilities, seniors, and children. Those with 
experience in disaster response are well aware of the unequal treatment 
marginalized communities received during Hurricane Katrina. I hope to 
never see people trapped, hungry, and fearing for their lives in the 
aftermath of a disaster because local, State, and Federal officials 
prioritized one group over another.
    Fortunately, the Biden administration is doing more to support 
communities like those in Louisiana and Mississippi, which frequently 
face unequal impacts of disasters. For example, it has included equity 
as one of the main pillars in FEMA's 2022-2026 Strategic Plan. The 
Biden administration has also made long-needed policy changes that 
increase the accessibility of FEMA's programs, such as expanding 
allowable ownership documentation to help disaster survivors keep land 
that has been in their family for generations. As we face more frequent 
and severe emergencies, it is critical that we prioritize equity.
    The lack of equitable resources during a disaster is appalling, 
which is why I, along with Representatives Carter, Titus, and Brian 
Higgins, created the Congressional Disaster Equity and Building 
Resilience Caucus. The caucus provides a valuable forum to discuss 
Federal policies that impact underserved communities in disasters.
    I am eager to hear from our witnesses today on how we can continue 
to support emergency preparedness for the people of Louisiana.

    Mr. D'Esposito. Thank you very much, Ranking Member 
Thompson.
    Other Members of the subcommittee are reminded that opening 
statements may be submitted for the record.
    I am very pleased, as we all mentioned, to have such an 
important panel of witnesses this morning.
    I ask that the witnesses please rise and raise your right 
hand.
    [Witnesses sworn.]
    Mr. D'Esposito. Let the record reflect that the witnesses 
have answered in the affirmative.
    I would now like to formally introduce our witnesses. Mr. 
Tony Robinson serves as the regional administrator for FEMA's 
Region 6, which oversees FEMA's efforts in Arkansas, Louisiana, 
New Mexico, Oklahoma, Texas, and 68 Federally-recognized Tribal 
Nations within this geographic area. In this role, Mr. Robinson 
has managed over $1 billion in grant funding each fiscal year 
to assist Region 6 partners in preparing for and recovering 
from disasters.
    Mr. Francisco Sanchez Jr., serves as the associate 
administrator for the U.S. Small Business Administration's 
Office of Disaster Recovery and Resilience. An associate 
administrator, Mr. Sanchez is responsible for supporting 
America's 33 million small businesses, renters, and homeowners 
to help them withstand or recover from natural disasters.
    Mr. Casey Tingle has served as the director of the 
Governor's Office of Homeland Security and Emergency 
Preparedness for the State of Louisiana since 2021. In this 
capacity, Director Tingle directs all aspects of the State's 
homeland security emergency and disaster preparedness and 
response, including billions of dollars in mitigation projects 
to protect Louisiana communities.
    Mrs. Pamela Granger is a licensed civil engineer in 
Louisiana and Florida and has been a civil engineer for over 27 
years. She is the president and owner of McBade Engineers & 
Consultants, and brings a wealth of experience in managing 
large civil works projects for local, State, and Federal 
clients throughout the Gulf Coast.
    I thank the witnesses for being here today and, again, 
thank you for your service to our coastal communities in this 
region.
    I now recognize Region 6 Administrator Robinson for 5 
minutes to summarize his opening statement.

  STATEMENT OF TONY ROBINSON, REGION 6 ADMINISTRATOR, FEDERAL 
   EMERGENCY MANAGEMENT AGENCY, U.S. DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND 
                            SECURITY

    Mr. Robinson. Good morning, Chairman D'Esposito, Ranking 
Member Carter, and Congressman Thompson. Thank you for the 
opportunity to join you today to discuss the mission of the 
Federal Emergency Management Agency.
    I'm Tony Robinson, regional administrator for FEMA Region 
6. I've been with FEMA since 1987, and I'm responsible for 
covering Arkansas, Louisiana, New Mexico, Oklahoma, Texas, and 
the 68 Federally-recognized Tribal Nations within this 
geographic area.
    FEMA has a powerful mission: Helping people before, during, 
and after disasters. In recent years, carrying out that mission 
has become more challenging and complex as we now face 
intensified natural disasters throughout the year, often in 
communities not used to experiencing them.
    In the face of this new reality, it is more important than 
ever that we break the cycle of disaster damage and 
reconstruction. We must focus on being better prepared, 
resilient, and vigilant against these ever-increasing threats. 
Under Administrator Criswell's leadership, with bipartisan 
support in Congress, and in close collaboration with Federal, 
State, local, Tribal, and territorial governments, community-
based organizations, and the private sector, FEMA is leading 
the way toward greater resilience.
    FEMA is not only a response recovery agency, we also work 
to mitigate the worst impacts of disasters before they occur. 
Hazard mitigation saves lives, results in less complex disaster 
recoveries, and can help us break the disaster cycle. That is 
why we appreciate Congress' support in authorizing and funding 
the Safeguarding Tomorrow Revolving Loan Fund as another 
mechanism for FEMA to increase the resiliency of our Nation by 
providing new types of financial support to our State, local, 
Tribal, and territorial partners.
    On September 12, 2023, FEMA awarded the first round of 
storm funding to Louisiana to kick start a loan program to help 
communities reduce their vulnerability to natural hazards and 
disasters. FEMA awarded Louisiana $6.9 million, the highest 
among the 8 recipients.
    FEMA's Building Resilient Infrastructure and Communities 
grant program has also proven to be a very effective tool for 
mitigation efforts. To date, FEMA has allocated nearly $4 
billion in grant funding to States, local communities, Tribal 
nations, and territories to undertake hazard mitigation 
projects.
    BRIC is being made more accessible to communities that are 
most at risk and most in need through the implementation of the 
Community Disaster Resilience Zone Act of 2022. FEMA announced 
the first set of zones in September that designate high-risk 
disadvantaged communities, allowing them to receive up to 90 
percent Federal cost share for projects primarily benefiting 
those zones.
    Here in Louisiana, Jefferson Parish was selected for a 
project to harden power infrastructure to protect residents, 
essential businesses, and emergency services providers from 
hurricane-force winds, as well as upgrade poles and wire to 
withstand 150-mile-per-hour winds and lightning strikes. When 
completed, this project is expected to save lives by keeping 
the power on to communities even during severe weather events.
    In Plaquemines Parish, where the historic community of 
Ironton experienced devastating flooding levels as high as 12 
to 14 feet during Hurricane Ida, our BRIC Direct Technical 
Assistance Program is working with communities to develop an 
application that would identify solutions to improve the 
community's drainage system during future events.
    As the committee knows, disaster recovery is often complex, 
painstaking, and takes a long time. Preparing our communities 
to recover quicker when disasters happen is part of building a 
resilient Nation. FEMA, in partnership with the U.S. Department 
of Housing and Urban Development, established the first of its 
kind pre-disaster State housing planning initiative designed to 
assist participating States in developing or maturing their 
pre-disaster housing strategy. I would like to commend 
Louisiana for being one of the first 4 States to join this new 
initiative.
    Under Administrator Criswell's leadership, we have taken 
concrete steps to simplify and create more equitable solutions 
through the individual assistance program. In 2021, we expanded 
methods of ownership verification for homeowners whose 
properties had been handed down informally through generations, 
as well as expanding methods of occupancy verification for 
owners and renters. As a result, in 2022, an additional $348 
million of assistance went to more than 78,000 renters. An 
additional $444 million went to more than 57,000 homeowners.
    FEMA is also in the process of making it easier for 
survivors to apply for disaster assistance with the on-line 
application available on DisasterAssistance.gov. Instead of 
requiring survivors to answer questions for every possible 
program, we're shifting to a tailored, needs-based assessment 
process. The new process will improve the customer experience 
and reduce the burden for applicants by providing a more 
intuitive application process.
    There is still much more to do to build a more resilient 
America, but FEMA is well-positioned to address the increasing 
range and complexities of disasters, support the diversity of 
communities we serve, and meet our Nation's growing 
expectations of the agency. We appreciate and continue to need 
Congress' support as we execute our mission of helping people 
before, during, and after disasters.
    Thank you for the opportunity to testify, and I look 
forward to answering your questions.
    [The prepared statement of Mr. Robinson follows:]
                  Prepared Statement of Tony Robinson
                           November 28, 2023
    Chairman D'Esposito, Ranking Member Carter, and the Members of the 
subcommittee, thank you for the opportunity to join you today to 
discuss the mission of the Federal Emergency Management Agency. I am 
Tony Robinson, regional administrator for FEMA Region 6. I have been 
with FEMA since 1987 and am responsible for covering Arkansas, 
Louisiana, New Mexico, Oklahoma, and Texas.
    FEMA has a powerful mission: Helping people before, during, and 
after disasters. In recent years, carrying out that mission has become 
more challenging and complex. We can no longer speak of a disaster 
``season.'' From atmospheric rivers in January to tornados and 
wildfires in December, we now face intensified natural disasters 
throughout the year, often in places not used to experiencing them. In 
just the last several months, we have seen disasters ranging from 
record flooding in Vermont, to the Nation's deadliest fire in over a 
century occurring on the island of Maui, to the first tropical cyclone 
to make landfall in California since 1938, and the impact of three 
hurricanes on the Gulf Coast of Florida over the last year.
    In the face of this new reality, it is more important than ever 
that we break the cycle of disaster damage and reconstruction. Instead, 
we must focus on being better prepared, resilient, and vigilant against 
these ever-increasing threats. Under Administrator Criswell's 
leadership, with bipartisan support in Congress, and in close 
collaboration with Federal, State, local, Tribal, and territorial 
governments, community-based organizations, and the private sector, 
FEMA is leading the way toward greater resilience.
    FEMA is not only a response and recovery agency. We also work to 
mitigate the worst impacts of disasters before they occur. Hazard 
mitigation saves lives, results in less complex disaster recoveries, 
and can help us break the disaster cycle.
    For example, FEMA is implementing a National strategy to 
incentivize the adoption of disaster-resistant building codes. We know 
that one of the most important ways to build resilience across our 
country, and save lives, is through adoption of hazard-resistant 
building codes. Communities that have adopted more modern, more 
resilience-focused building codes have avoided an estimated $32 billion 
in losses from natural disasters across the country since the year 2000 
alone, which could translate into over $130 billion in savings by 2040. 
According to the fiscal year 2023 Q4 Building Code Adoption Tracking 
(BCAT) database, only 31 percent of jurisdictions have adopted the 
current (2021) or next most recent (2018) hazard-resistant building 
codes. That would mean that slightly more than 2 out of 3 communities 
in the United States have not adopted current hazard-resistant building 
codes, which represents roughly 177 million people at high risk from 
the growing impacts of natural disasters who do not reside in 
communities with hazard-resistant building codes. We must close that 
gap.
    We recognize that many mitigation projects are expensive, and 
financing the construction of these projects is very challenging for 
communities. That is why we appreciate Congress' support in authorizing 
and funding the Safeguarding Tomorrow Revolving Loan Fund (STORM RLF) 
as another mechanism which FEMA is using to increase the resiliency of 
our Nation by providing new types of financial support to our State, 
local, Tribal, and territorial (SLTT) partners. STORM RLF provides 
capitalization grants to States, eligible Federally-recognized Tribes, 
and territories to establish revolving loan funds from which they will 
provide low-interest loans to local governments to undertake mitigation 
projects and activities that will reduce their risks from natural 
hazards and disasters. At least 40 percent of the loans are expected to 
be directed to small or under-resourced communities, as we know that 
access to traditional grant funding is a significant barrier that 
small, rural, and other communities with limited capacity face when 
seeking to undertake mitigation projects.
    On September 12, 2023, FEMA awarded the first round of STORM RLF 
funding to Louisiana, 6 other States, and the District of Columbia. A 
combined $50 million in grant funding will kick-start 8 loan programs 
to help communities reduce their vulnerability to natural hazards and 
disasters. FEMA awarded Louisiana $6.9 million, the highest amount 
among the 8 selected recipients. FEMA expects to make available for 
competition additional STORM RLF funding in 2024.
    FEMA's Building Resilient Infrastructure and Communities (BRIC) 
grant program has also proven to be a very effective tool for 
mitigation efforts. To date, FEMA has allocated nearly $4 billion in 
grant funding to States, local communities, Tribal nations, and 
territories to undertake hazard mitigation projects. Following the 
fiscal year 2022 BRIC National competition, FEMA selected 124 projects 
across 115 communities. The selections span all 10 FEMA regions, 
including 38 States, one Tribe, and the District of Columbia.
    BRIC is being made more accessible to communities that are the most 
at risk and most in need through the implementation of the Community 
Disaster Resilience Zones Act of 2022. FEMA announced the first set of 
Zones in September that designate high-risk disadvantaged communities 
to receive up to 90 percent Federal cost share for projects primarily 
benefiting these Zones.
    Here in Louisiana, Jefferson Parish was selected for a project to 
harden power infrastructure to protect residents, essential businesses, 
and emergency service providers from hurricane-force winds, as well as 
upgrade poles and wire to withstand 150-mph winds and lightning 
strikes. When completed, this project is expected to result in 
interruption and restoration cost savings of over $150 million in the 
next 50 years and, more importantly, will save lives by keeping the 
power on to communities even during severe weather events.
    In Plaquemines Parish, where the historic community of Ironton 
experienced devasting flood levels as high as 12-14 feet during 
Hurricane Ida, our BRIC Direct Technical Assistance Program is working 
with the community to develop a fiscal year 2024 application that would 
identify solutions to improve the community's drainage system during 
future events.
    As the committee knows, disaster recovery is often complex, 
painstaking, and takes a long time. A part of building a resilient 
nation is also preparing our communities to recover quicker when 
disasters happen. FEMA just completed the first cohort of one of its 
new initiatives to help communities prepare for recovery in partnership 
with U.S. Department of Housing and Urban Development (HUD). Together 
we established a first-of-its-kind Pre-Disaster State Housing Planning 
Initiative designed to assist participating States in developing or 
maturing their pre-disaster housing strategy. Over the course of 
several months, with technical assistance from FEMA and HUD, 
participating States identified their existing housing stock in the 
State and localities, documented current and potential strategies for 
temporary and permanent housing options to be pursued after a disaster, 
while simultaneously creating strategies to provide resilient, 
affordable housing to survivors as soon as possible after an event. I 
would like to commend Louisiana for being one of the first 4 States 
across the Nation to join this new initiative.
    With regard to individuals and families, under Administrator 
Criswell's leadership, we have taken concrete steps to simplify and 
create more equitable solutions for assistance through our Individual 
Assistance (IA) program that have led to real, and tangible positive 
impacts for disaster survivors. In 2021, we expanded methods of 
ownership verification for homeowners whose properties had been handed 
down informally through generations, as well as expanding methods of 
occupancy verification for owners and renters to prove the disaster-
damaged home was the primary residence. Both ownership and occupancy 
verification also allow self-certification as a last resort due to 
challenges with obtaining traditional forms of documentation. As a 
result, in 2022, an additional $348 million dollars of assistance went 
to more than 78,000 renters, and an additional $444 million dollars 
went to more than 57,000 homeowners. Previously, these individuals 
would have been denied FEMA assistance, complicating their recovery.
    FEMA is also working to simplify our Public Assistance Program to 
streamline the distribution of aid to communities. We are refining 
information collection forms to enable applicants to complete project 
applications on their own and reduce paperwork. By implementing the 
requirements of the Small Project Efficient and Effective Disaster 
Recovery (SPEED) Act, less information will be required for small 
projects--projects less than $1 million--which will accelerate recovery 
funds to these communities. To provide some perspective, approximately 
94 percent of projects are small. The forms will also include questions 
designed to better facilitate support for underserved communities.
    We also changed how to calculate the threshold for property losses 
for survivors to qualify for Direct Housing assistance, which ensures 
more precise damage evaluations regardless of the size of the damaged 
home. The previous calculations could disadvantage homeowners with more 
modest homes, who might have suffered comparable damage to larger homes 
but were receiving less assistance. The new calculation methodology is 
more accurate in providing assistance that is proportionate to the 
damage sustained.
    FEMA also is in the process of making it easier for survivors to 
apply for disaster assistance--beginning with the on-line application 
available on DisasterAssistance.- gov. Instead of requiring survivors 
to answer questions for every possible program, including for services 
they don't need, we're shifting to a tailored, needs-based assessment 
process. The new process will improve the customer experience and 
reduce the burden for applicants by providing a more intuitive 
application process. Notably, this deliverable fulfills an important 
commitment of the DHS Secretary from Executive Order 14058, to ``design 
and deliver a streamlined, on-line assistance application.''
    FEMA has also contributed administrative data and staff 
perspectives to cross-agency projects to improve the recovery 
experience for people impacted by disasters. One effort focuses on 
administrative burden analysis across the recovery experience, and the 
other focuses on meeting survivors with a trauma-informed approach.
    There is still much to do to build a more resilient America, but 
FEMA is well-positioned to address the increasing range and complexity 
of disasters, support the diversity of communities we serve, and meet 
our Nation's growing expectations of the agency. We appreciate and 
continue to need Congress' support as we execute our mission of helping 
people before, during, and after disasters.
    Thank you for the opportunity to testify. I look forward to 
answering your questions.

    Mr. D'Esposito. Thank you, Mr. Robinson.
    I now recognize Associate Administrator Sanchez for 5 
minutes to summarize his opening statement.

 STATEMENT OF FRANCISCO SANCHEZ JR., ASSOCIATE ADMINISTRATOR, 
OFFICE OF DISASTER RECOVERY AND RESILIENCE, U.S. SMALL BUSINESS 
                         ADMINISTRATION

    Mr. Sanchez. Good morning, Chairman D'Esposito, Ranking 
Members Carter and Thompson. I'm Francisco Sanchez, the 
associate administrator of the Office of Disaster Recovery and 
Resilience at SBA. On behalf of Administrator Isabel Casillas 
Guzman and the entire agency, thank you for your support of our 
disaster mission and also for convening this discussion on 
Federal, State, and local coordination in coastal communities. 
Being in a local role before joining SBA, it's precisely the 
type of work that I've been engaged in for about the past two 
decades.
    In my career, emergency management started unexpectedly 
with a storm on the Texas-Louisiana coast, has been defined by 
storms on the Texas-Louisiana coast, and will likely end with a 
storm on the Texas-Louisiana coast.
    My first two official visits in this role were to Florida 
and to here in Louisiana. I know from personal experience that 
the representatives on this panel are collaborators at all 
levels of government, and they represent the kind of 
coordination and trusted coordination that comes from both the 
opportunity and, quite frankly, the challenge of having to work 
together so frequently.
    The disaster enterprise at SBA fulfills one of the agency's 
most important functions. Its mission is to provide affordable, 
timely, and accessible financial assistance to businesses of 
all sizes, private nonprofits, homeowners, and renters. The SBA 
offers low-interest, long-term Federal loans for disaster 
losses not covered by insurance. Our world-class team works 
tirelessly to enhance our programs and resources, ensuring the 
Nation's 33 million small businesses, along with countless 
homeowners, renters, and nonprofits, can access recovery and 
mitigation resources they need to rebuild in a way that's 
stronger, smarter, and more resilient.
    Twenty-twenty-two set a record. The United States 
experienced 18 separate weather and climate disasters, each 
costing more than a billion dollars. Fast-forward to this year, 
we are, unfortunately, breaking even more records.
    In 2023, as of early November, there have been 25 confirmed 
disaster events with losses each exceeding a billion dollars in 
the United States. At the end of 2023 fiscal year, SBA was 
involved in 405 disaster declarations across this country. This 
morning, SBA is on the ground in 31 disasters across 24 States, 
2 territories, and nearly 170 counties or parishes across this 
country.
    Under the Biden-Harris administration, SBA has approved 
more than 105,000 loans, resulting in excess of $5.9 billion in 
low-interest loan disaster lending in the hands of survivors--
disaster survivors to help them to rebuild and recover.
    To be clear, this year has involved a wildfire on a 
tropical island in the Pacific and a hurricane making landfall 
across a California desert.
    We're in New Orleans today, but the tropical storms are not 
the only threat to coastal communities as the climate changes. 
This year, Louisiana faced multiple disasters related to 
wildfire. The most substantial of these fires, the Tiger Island 
fire in Beauregard Parish, stands as perhaps one of the largest 
wildfires recorded in the State's history.
    Simultaneously, the threat of tropical cyclones only 
persists--not only persists but is also growing. In 2020, 
Louisiana experienced 5 direct tropical cyclone landfalls, 
setting the record for the highest number for any single State 
in a hurricane season.
    Under Administrator Guzman's leadership, the SBA announced 
major changes to its disaster lending program. For the first 
time in 30 years, SBA increased loan limits for a homeowner's 
primary residence from $200,000 to $500,000, and we increased 
limits for personal property, such as clothing, furniture, 
appliances, and automobiles, from $40,000 to $100,000. To give 
homeowners and businesses time to recover from a disaster, 
SBA's initial deferment period went from 5 months to 12 months 
and deferred interest for those 12 months as well.
    To improve customer experience, SBA launched the MySBA Loan 
Portal in February 2023, allowing users to use a single login 
across multiple programs across SBA for managing their loans, 
programs like our small business vet certification, or our 
VetCert program, and now a new on-line disaster assistance 
application that will ease the burden on disaster survivors and 
expedite how quickly we can get money into their hands. This 
effort aligns with an important commitment of Administrator 
Guzman in Executive Order 14058 that directs us to design and 
deliver a streamlined on-line disaster assistance application 
experience. These steps are important, but preparedness starts 
before disaster.
    So as I close, I will highlight that SBA has extended its 
assistance for its mitigation programs to help them prepare for 
disasters to come. This year, SBA changed the final rule. 
Before, you could only use mitigation lending for the disaster 
type you just faced. Now you can mitigate against any type of 
hazard that you're facing in your community. That common-sense 
solution will help us be more resilient moving ahead.
    So, Chairman, thank you so much for the opportunity, and 
Members, and the invitation to be here.
    [The prepared statement of Mr. Sanchez follows:]
                Prepared Statement of Francisco Sanchez
                           November 28, 2023
    Thank you for the invitation to discuss the Small Business 
Administration's (SBA's) response to major disasters and explore 
disaster mitigation, preparedness, response, and recovery and State, 
Tribal, and local coordination efforts with our Federal partners. Good 
afternoon, Chairman D'Esposito, Ranking Member Thompson, Rep. Carter, 
and distinguished committee Members. I am Francisco Sanchez, the 
associate administrator for the Office of Disaster Recovery and 
Resilience (ODR&R) at the SBA. On behalf of Administrator Isabel 
Casillas Guzman, and the entire agency, I want to express our deep 
appreciation for your support of our disaster assistance mission and 
commitment to ensuring the Federal Government stands ready to aid our 
communities in their preparedness and recovery efforts.
    With decades of experience in emergency management, I've had the 
privilege of working on some of the Nation's largest security events, 
including 2 Super Bowls and 3 World Series. I've also been involved in 
local coordination for multiple National special security events. Prior 
to joining SBA, I served as the Deputy Homeland Security and Emergency 
Management Coordinator for the Harris County Office of Homeland 
Security & Emergency Management in Texas, which is the third-largest 
county in the United States. Harris County includes the city of Houston 
and, during my tenure in public service, we responded to historically 
catastrophic hurricanes like Katrina, Rita, Ike, and Harvey. We dealt 
with extreme natural events, ranging from wildfires that burned 
thousands of acres, to historic flooding, to rainstorms that dumped 16 
inches of rain on our community in less than 12 hours. Recently, Harris 
County averaged one Presidentially-declared disaster every 9 months.
    Since my transition to the Federal Government in January 2022, I 
have been leading ODR&R at the SBA. I am now more confident than ever 
that the disaster enterprise fulfills one of the agency's most 
important functions. Its mission is to provide affordable, timely, and 
accessible financial assistance to businesses of all sizes, private 
non-profit organizations, homeowners, and renters following a declared 
disaster. The SBA offers low-interest, long-term Federal loans for 
disaster losses not covered by insurance. Our world-class team works 
tirelessly to enhance our programs and resources, ensuring that 
America's 33 million small businesses, along with countless homeowners 
and renters, can access the recovery and mitigation resources they need 
to rebuild stronger, smarter, and more resiliently.
    We are actively addressing climate change and community 
preparedness through the Mitigation Assistance Option for Disaster 
Loans, which has become a critical resource for individuals and 
businesses impacted by disasters. In 2022, the United States declared 
18 separate weather and climate disasters, exceeding $1 billion in 
damages. In 2023 alone, SBA has addressed a range of major disasters 
across the country--from wildfires in Hawaii, to Hurricane Idalia that 
severely damaged the southern States of Florida and Georgia, to 
flooding in Vermont--each time responding swiftly and adjusting to 
needs on the ground. SBA is currently involved in 31 disaster 
declarations across the Nation. We have active declarations in 17 
States. Even after a disaster declaration closes, our personnel remains 
on the ground to assist. To date, we have staff in 7 States, 2 
territories, and 172 counties/parishes to help process closed cases. 
Under the Biden-Harris administration we have accepted 285,341 
applications and approved 105,748 requests, resulting in $5,994,586,670 
in lending.
    We are in New Orleans today to discuss disaster mitigation, 
preparedness, response, and recovery and State, Tribal, and local 
coordination efforts with their Federal partners.
    According to the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration's 
National Centers for Environmental Information, Louisiana ranks third 
nationally in terms of total costs from Federally-declared disasters 
exceeding $1 billion. Between 1980 and 2023, Louisiana has reported 
damages of around $300 billion.
    Texas ranks first nationally in damages with an estimated $300 
billion to $400 billion. Florida follows closely in second place with 
damages ranging from $300 billion to $390 billion over the same 43-year 
period.
    This year Louisiana has faced multiple disasters related to 
wildfire. From August to October 2023, Louisiana faced a series of 
wildfires that consumed more than 60,000 acres (94 sq mi), and forced 
evacuations in several towns, including Merryville and Singer. The most 
substantial of these fires, the Tiger Island fire in Beauregard Parish, 
stands as the largest wildfire recorded in the State, burning over 
50,000 acres of land.
    These fires, which began on August 22, 2023, resulted in at least 
441 wildfires across 17 parishes and led to the destruction of at least 
21 buildings, prompting the Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA) 
to approve an assistance grant in Beauregard Parish, Louisiana.
    Over the past decade, Louisiana has faced several tropical cyclone 
events, including the landfall of 3 Category 3+ hurricanes, along with 
a series of significant flooding events. In 2020, Louisiana experienced 
5 direct tropical cyclone landfalls, setting a record for the highest 
number for any State in a single hurricane season.
    In March and August 2016, prolonged rainfall resulted in flooding 
across the State of Louisiana. In August 2016, 7-day rainfall rates 
reached over 2 feet in some of the most deluged areas. For the 2 events 
combined, in Louisiana, over 42,600 applications were received, with 
19,900 approvals totaling $1.37 billion. For the March 2016 severe 
storms and flooding, SBA opened 55 physical centers in the State. For 
the August 2016 severe storms and flooding, SBA opened 51 centers.
    On August 27, 2020, Hurricane Laura made landfall in Cameron 
Parish, Louisiana as a Category 4 hurricane, with maximum sustained 
winds of 150 mph and storm surge of up to 18 feet. After the 
Presidential disaster declaration, SBA went to work to help the 
community rebuild. We approved more than 10,600 loans for $613 million. 
SBA opened 1 physical center and 3 virtual centers.
    On August 29, 2021, Hurricane Ida made landfall at Port Fourchon, 
Louisiana (Lafourche Parish) as a Category 4 hurricane, with maximum 
sustained winds of 150 mph and storm surge of up to 13 feet. SBA's 
disaster lending team approved 26,000 loans for $1.31 billion. SBA 
opened 76 physical centers and 3 virtual centers.
    With 2023's hurricane season ending on November 30, now is the time 
to build resiliency and make the investments to survive the next storm. 
One of President Biden's top priorities has been to prepare America's 
economy and our communities for the growing threats and challenges of a 
changing global climate.
    The SBA plays an important role in advancing this mission.
    During Presidential disaster declarations, SBA staff co-locates 
with FEMA-State Disaster Recovery Centers, providing one-on-one 
assistance to applicants to begin the process of applying for financial 
assistance to rebuild and recover. SBA also opens Business Recovery 
Centers in the affected area to support business owners. Beyond 
disaster loans, SBA works with our network of specialized Resource 
Partners such as Small Business Development Centers, SCORE, and others 
to provide technical assistance and support to help businesses reopen 
their doors.
    As a part of our Recovery and Outreach Strategy, SBA conducts 
campaigns aimed at helping eligible individuals and businesses with 
applying for an SBA loan. Whether that's seeking additional assistance 
from SBA or identifying additional resources within our network, SBA is 
committed to helping small businesses build capacity for disaster 
preparedness, resilience, and long-term recovery. Because loans are a 
complex financial transaction, SBA's outreach strategy focuses on 
assisting eligible individuals and businesses that may not be familiar 
with SBA's disaster loan program and applicants that were initially 
declined. We provide reconsideration opportunities for businesses who 
are declined and we conduct targeted outreach to encourage businesses 
that were impacted by a disaster to apply for Economic Injury Disaster 
Loan (EIDL) assistance.
    Under Administrator Guzman's leadership, the SBA announced major 
changes to its disaster lending program in July 2023. For the first 
time in nearly 30 years, the SBA adjusted its loan limits, taking into 
account rising construction costs to ensure that communities across 
America have access to sufficient funding to rebuild homes, replace 
personal property, and reopen businesses when disasters strike.
    To adjust for current costs, SBA increased loan limits for a 
homeowner's primary residence from $200,000 to $500,000. We increased 
loan limits for personal property such as clothing, furniture, 
appliances, automobiles, from $40,000 to $100,000.
    To give homeowners and businesses time to recover from a disaster, 
SBA increased the initial payment deferral period from 5 to 12 months. 
To decrease cost of recovery for borrowers, interest on SBA disaster 
loans does not begin to accrue for the first 12 months from the date 
they receive the loan.
    To improve customer experience, SBA launched the MySBA Loan Portal 
in February 2023, allowing users to use a single login to access 
multiple services including account management for loans, the Veteran 
Small Business Certification (VetCert) program, and, most recently, a 
new on-line disaster assistance application that eases the burden on 
disaster survivors and expedites the availability of loan funds to 
homeowners, renters, businesses, and nonprofit organizations recovering 
from disasters. This effort aligns with an important commitment of 
Administrator Guzman in Executive Order 14058, to ``design and deliver 
a streamlined on-line disaster assistance application experience.''
    These steps are important, but emergency preparedness starts before 
disasters. Extended mitigation assistance from SBA is crucial beyond 
the declared disaster event. Communities face multiple risks like 
hurricanes, floods, tornadoes, wildfires, and earthquakes. Disaster 
mitigation funds allow owners to build stronger and more resilient 
defenses so that they can be prepared when the next disaster strikes.
    Early this year, SBA published a final rule to allow property 
owners to use mitigation loans to prepare for a range of disasters. 
Previously, disaster loan funds were limited to solely to mitigate a 
``similar'' disaster event that caused damage to their home or 
business. If a borrower is affected by a fire, they can also access 
funding to prepare for a flood or hurricane. This commonsense change 
will allow our communities to be more resilient going forward.
    Thank you for your support of SBA and our disaster recovery 
mission. I look forward to our continued work together.

    Mr. D'Esposito. Thank you, Mr. Sanchez.
    I now recognize Director Tingle for his opening statement.

   STATEMENT OF CASEY TINGLE, DIRECTOR, GOVERNOR'S OFFICE OF 
    HOMELAND SECURITY AND EMERGENCY PREPAREDNESS, STATE OF 
                           LOUISIANA

    Mr. Tingle. Good morning. Thank you, Chairman D'Esposito, 
Ranking Member Carter, Ranking Member Thompson, for inviting me 
here today and for holding this important hearing. To the staff 
and to SUNO for hosting us, thank you for your work as well.
    I'm Casey Tingle, the director of the Governor's Office of 
Homeland Security and Emergency Preparedness for the State of 
Louisiana, the State agency that's got lead responsibility for 
the coordination of emergency management in the State.
    The relationship between Federal, State, local emergency 
management partners is critical. While each maintains separate 
authorities and capabilities, we must connect and support one 
another to effectively and timely save lives and property.
    In Louisiana, just in Governor Edwards' 8-year term, 
Louisiana has been impacted by roughly 250 local events that 
involve some level of State coordination or support. Only 50 of 
these were raised to the level of a State emergency 
declaration, and over 20 of those were a Federal declaration. 
The point there is simply that, while large events are 
increasing and the demand on the Federal system is increasing, 
the number of small events is also increasing. So the demands 
that we see at the State and local level correspond to what we 
have heard from our Federal partners. Every day somewhere local 
partners are responding to some sort of an emergency event. 
Often in Louisiana that is the case, and a number of these 
events remain local events.
    We've seen since Hurricane Katrina in 2005, much progress 
in our response posture. I'm happy to report that. Our response 
to a number of events, we've already heard, from 2020, 2021, 
2016, hurricanes, floods bears that out. This coordination with 
our key Federal partners and local partners is continuous. I 
think that's important to note. It benefits from not just work 
and exercise scenarios but in all of the real-world work that 
we have done responding to numerous events.
    I want to highlight on behalf of the State, the State of 
Louisiana's investment in emergency management. In the most 
recent legislative session, we were appropriated State funds so 
that we could pass through an increase of $3 million every year 
in emergency performance, management performance grant funding 
to our parish partners, recognizing a significant increase to 
them to build their local capacity.
    Whether it's cyber response, whether it's building a new 
shelter or warehouse capacity, or managing the first of its 
kind State temporary housing program after Ida, the State of 
Louisiana continues to increase its investment and role in 
emergency management for our State.
    I want to highlight the importance of the EMPG funding and 
what it has meant for the State of Louisiana and the work that 
it does and the value that it provides every day for events 
that never rise to the level of a Federal declaration. This 
funding is some of the most flexible funding that we have in 
this space, and as a one-for-one match, brings a great return 
on investment.
    There's broad consensus in the emergency management 
community for the need to increase this funding, and I would 
encourage all of you to consider that as you make 
determinations on budgets to come.
    Secondarily, Senate Bill 3071, the Disaster Management 
Costs Modernization Act, could also provide additional funding 
to State and local partners without the appropriation of any 
new dollars, simply allowing the flexibility to allocate 
dollars that are already funded under the disaster, allowing 
those funds to go farther and do more than they are currently 
allowed to do. House support for this approach would be another 
tangible step toward supporting better preparedness at the 
State and local level.
    On behalf of the State of Louisiana, just a couple of 
points that I would make in terms of our support for our 
locals. We process in the neighborhood of $1 billion to $1.5 
billion dollars in reimbursements every year related to 
disaster management programs. So we've got a great deal of 
support to this.
    Some of the things that we have done recently is to procure 
at the State level program management contracts that allow our 
locals to better access these programs and utilize these 
programs without some of the administrative red tape. We 
provide funding and technical assistance so that all parishes 
can have a hazard mitigation plan to access hazard mitigation 
funding.
    Then finally, we've got staff that are dedicated to the 
work to reduce complexity of managing these programs and a 
great deal of experience doing so. The Disaster Survivors 
Fairness Act and Disaster Assistance Simplification Act are 
both examples of your work in this space, and I want to thank 
you for that.
    Thank you for the opportunity today.
    [The prepared statement of Mr. Tingle follows:]
                   Prepared Statement of Casey Tingle
                           November 28, 2023
                              introduction
    Thank you, Chairman D'Esposito, Ranking Members Thompson and 
Carter, and distinguished Members of the committee for the invitation 
to testify today and for holding this hearing in New Orleans.
    I am Casey Tingle, director of the Governor's Office of Homeland 
Security and Emergency Preparedness (GOHSEP). GOHSEP is the State 
agency responsible for the preservation of the lives and property of 
the people of the State of Louisiana through the coordination of 
emergency preparedness, response, recovery, and homeland security 
activities. As director of GOHSEP and on behalf of my colleagues in 
State emergency management, we thank you for holding this discussion on 
Emergency Preparedness: Examining Federal, State, and Local 
Coordination in Coastal Communities. I also want to thank the other 
partners providing testimony today. Each of them represents an 
important component of the response and recovery network and each 
agency represented has made significant contributions to the recovery 
of Louisiana from disasters.
    The relationship between Federal, State, and local emergency 
management is critical. Each maintains separate authorities and 
capabilities but must connect and support one another to effectively 
and timely save lives and protect property. State emergency management 
relies on the capacity, relationships, and preparedness of our local 
partners, so the success of FEMA is also determined by the strength of 
the States. The relationship between State and Federal emergency 
management is sometimes stressed, but no disagreement cannot be 
overcome by understanding each other's priorities, remaining flexible, 
and maintaining the shared goal of focusing on disaster survivors.
                     disaster history declarations
    From 2016 through 2023, Louisiana has been impacted by roughly 251 
local incidents involving some level of State coordination or support 
of these, 50 were State emergency declarations and 21 Federal disaster 
declarations.
    For State fiscal year 2023 alone, GOHSEP responded to 39 events and 
activated the State Emergency Operations Center for 7 of those events 
totaling 48 days of activation.
    Notable events that affected the State include multiple severe 
weather and tornado events, winter weather, and the saltwater intrusion 
of the Mississippi River. There were also numerous local emergencies 
including water system outages. A total of 7 incidents warranted a 
State of Emergency Declaration from the Governor.
    In that time, we have had several opportunities to address 
coordination and improvements with other Federal agencies like FEMA and 
local governments and we welcome the committee to this discussion as we 
look to remain dedicated to the development and maintenance of programs 
that meet our core mission, are cost-effective, improve communication 
at the local, State, and Federal levels, and assist Louisiana in moving 
closer to disaster independence.
    While FEMA and our other Federal partners play critical roles in 
our Nation's response infrastructure, response is happening every day 
at the State and local level that does not rise to the level of a 
Federal declaration.
                      progress in response posture
    Since Hurricane Katrina in 2005, much progress has been made in the 
response posture in the State of Louisiana as evidenced by the response 
to a number of major disaster events. While no response is perfect and 
each event is different, the level of preparedness, collaboration, and 
practice continue to demonstrate improvements at all levels. 
Coordination with key partners is continuous and benefits from trusted 
relationships built over many years of working together in exercises 
and real-world experience. The risks we face continue to grow in 
severity and frequency but so does the commitment to preparedness at 
all levels.
                state investment in emergency management
    Without a thriving State and local emergency management system, 
many of the aforementioned events would likely have required costly 
Federal support. Louisiana is investing more resources in the building 
and supporting of this capacity at the local level by increasing by $3 
million the amount of Emergency Management Performance Grant funding 
that is passed through to our local partners. In addition, increasing 
investments in cyber response and preparedness capacity, investments in 
new shelter and warehouse capacity, as well as managing a State 
temporary housing program are all examples of efforts to improve the 
level of preparedness and the capacity to respond and recover for 
Louisiana.
      importance of emergency management performance grant funding
    One of the most important resources supporting State and local 
emergency management agencies build capacity is the Emergency 
Management Performance Grant (EMPG). With a one-to-one matching 
requirement at the local and State levels, this program represents one 
of the best values in Federal spending. EMPG continues as a critical 
driver of progress and success made across the country in preparing 
for, responding to, and recovering from all hazards. The program's 
success is shared by all levels of Government and relies heavily on the 
continued, and decades-long, commitment of Congress.
    The emergency management community is requesting Congress codifies 
one of the COVID-19 supplemental amounts of $100 million to increase 
EMPG to an overall funding level of $455 million in fiscal year 2024. 
This will move the community toward ensuring all eligible States and 
jurisdictions fully participate in the program and matches the approach 
Louisiana has taken.
    Further, legislation filed in the Senate, S. 3071 Disaster 
Management Costs Modernization Act, would provide another critical 
funding stream to support preparedness of communities across the 
country by allowing for the roll-over of management costs from one 
disaster to another. This legislation is supported by the National 
Emergency Management Association (NEMA), International Association of 
Emergency Managers (IAEM), Big City Emergency Managers (BCEM), 
BuildStrong Coalition, and National Voluntary Organizations Active in 
Disasters (NVOAD). Support in the House for this approach would be a 
tangible step toward supporting better preparedness at the State level.
          state support with recovery and mitigation programs
    GOHSEP provides grant management and technical services under the 
Public Assistance (PA) and Hazard Mitigation Assistance (HMA) programs. 
FEMA's Public Assistance PA Program provides supplemental grants to 
State, Tribal, territorial, local governments, and certain types of 
private non-profits so that communities can quickly respond to and 
recover from major disasters or emergencies. For context, GOHSEP 
manages $23 billion in PA funding across 20 open disasters, $3.5 
billion in Hazard Mitigation Grant Program (HMGP) funding across 18 
open disasters, and an additional $478 million in annual mitigation 
grant funding. For the State's 2023 fiscal year, GOHSEP worked with 
eligible sub-grantees and FEMA to fund over 2,300 new PA grants 
representing recovery funding of $1.9 billion and supplemental 
amendments to grants totaling $329 million. During this same period, 
GOHSEP reviewed and approved over 4,200 reimbursement requests worth 
$1.1 billion dollars recovery funding.
    Despite continued good-faith efforts by FEMA to reduce the 
complexity of these programs, the pathway to accessing these funds 
remains a real challenge to many communities. Oftentimes the fear of 
claw-back or burden of complexity results in impacted communities 
growing frustrated with the process or withdrawing altogether at a time 
when the assistance is most needed. In order to increase the 
accessibility and timeliness of this process, GOHSEP has implemented 
several strategies to try and reduce the administrative burden of these 
programs.
Example 1: State Contracts to Support Local Entities
    In 2020, GOHSEP procured State contract vendors to assist sub-
grantees impacted by a disaster in getting immediate assistance with 
obtaining and receiving both PA and HMGP funding. This new process 
allows the contract support to engage early on and the sub-grantee is 
spared the administrative burden of a procurement process when they are 
still often in active response mode. In fiscal year 2023, these vendors 
continued their work with over 130 sub-grantees across 5 disasters from 
obligation of funding through grant closeout.
Example 2: Hazard Mitigation Plan Support
    Approved and adopted hazard mitigation plans are a requirement for 
the State and local governments, including special districts, to be 
eligible for HMA grant funding. In addition to securing FEMA funding to 
update the plans, GOHSEP provides assistance throughout the planning 
process to ensure that plans are consistent with FEMA guidance and are 
approved in a timely fashion. Currently, 48 parish plans are approved, 
and 16 parish plans are in the process of being updated. Another 
example of this support is the partnership with Louisiana State 
University's Stephenson Disaster Management Institute (LSU SDMI) to 
provide assistance with local hazard mitigation plan updates. For the 
past 10 years, the State offers this assistance at no cost to the 
parish to ensure that all 64 parishes have an approved Hazard 
Mitigation plan.
Example 3: Technical Program Support
    One of the most important responsibilities in managing these 
programs is to ensure sub-grantees are able to navigate the rules of 
the program and maximize their Federal grants. GOHSEP has dedicated 
staff and contract support available to assist with successfully 
navigating technical program requirements to ensure that FEMA reviews 
and determinations are correct and consistent with the letter and 
intent of law, regulation, and policy. One example of this work 
involves how to appropriately account for insurance proceeds. GOHSEP 
was recently successful in assisting Iberia Parish School Board with 
approval of $1.7 million in PA funding related to this issue and in 
assisting other sub-grantees with an additional $1.5 million due to 
incorrect insurance reductions.
Example 4: State Program Liaison Staff
    Since Hurricane Katrina, GOHSEP has assigned staff to serve as 
program liaison between FEMA and sub-grantees for PA and HMA funding. 
These staff are assigned to work with sub-grantees to explain program 
requirements and time lines, to assist with complicated project 
applications, and to flag issues for GOHSEP leadership. These staff 
help ensure consistency and responsiveness in the program delivery and 
collaboration between Federal and local partners.
Example 5: State-Funded Debris Funding
    While Louisiana did not have any disasters that met the criteria 
for a Federal disaster declaration in fiscal year 2023, there were 
significant events that exceeded local abilities to respond and 
recover. In order to preserve lives, safety, and public health; the 
State agreed to fund the response and debris operations necessary for 
the impacted communities to recover. GOHSEP made modifications to its 
existing procedures to review and disburse this funding. GOHSEP also 
supported the impacted communities by providing outreach and technical 
support for their debris operations. The delivery of this program has 
encouraged more robust debris management planning and has expedited 
recovery from more localized events such as tornadoes.
             investment in cyber preparedness and response
    GOHSEP partnered with the Division of Administration--Office of 
Technology Services (OTS), the Louisiana National Guard (LANG), and the 
Louisiana State Police to offer cybersecurity incident management and 
response assistance to State, local, and private Critical 
Infrastructure and Key Resources (CIKR) throughout the State. Emergency 
Support Function (ESF)-17 has been activated in an open-State disaster 
declaration since 2019 and has responded to more than 120 individual 
State, local, and private CIKR. During State fiscal year 2023, 22 ESF-
17 responses were conducted.
    Additionally, GOHSEP has partnered with ESF-17 partners to develop 
a Cyber Incident Management and Response training program and has 
trained organizations throughout higher education, the State's court 
systems, K-12 school systems, and municipalities across the State. 
During State fiscal year 2022-2023, 4 Cyber Incident Management and 
Response training events and exercises were conducted.
                  state and local cyber grant program
    In preparation for submission of the State's 2022 State and Local 
Grant Program (SLCGP) application, the Louisiana Cybersecurity 
Assurance Program and associated plan were developed. This represents a 
progression from a strictly reactive cybersecurity posture through 
incident responses involving Louisiana's ESF-17 agencies to the 
development of a proactive posture, to equitably balance Louisiana's 
cybersecurity efforts. The plan resulted from ESF-17: Cybersecurity's 
successful proofs of concept and was specifically developed to allow 
for efficient and effective cybersecurity information sharing and 
coordination, and to leverage the State's purchasing power (on behalf 
of the local and rural entities) to receive discounted high-volume 
prices on key assets such as software licenses and hardware for State-
wide distribution. The key project from the 2022 grant focuses on End-
Point Detection resources provided for local entities across the State. 
This approach enjoyed broad support from all partners on cyber planning 
committee and further demonstrates commitment to local partners.
               complexity issues with recovery/mitigation
    While the response posture continues to improve, the challenges of 
recovery and mitigation continue. Lack of alignment, competing time 
lines, duplicative interactions, insurance challenges, and the overall 
lack of affordable housing all serve to leave many disaster survivors 
and communities in a cycle of frustration and despair. The slow time 
line of these programs combined with subsequent event further stress a 
depleted network of non-profit and faith-based partners. Community 
Development Block Grant--Disaster Recovery (CDBG-DR) funds offer the 
promise of long-term recovery and flexibility but many times these 
promises are not fulfilled. Ask families that have to navigate multiple 
programs, applications, rules, and time lines for their feedback in you 
will hear confusion, missed opportunities, and short-term programs 
standing in the way of long-term solutions. H.R. 1796: Disaster 
Survivors Fairness Act of 2023 and S. 1528: Disaster Assistance 
Simplification Act both offer helpful solutions to these challenges. 
Thank you for your attention to these issues.
                            insurance issues
    At a time when local and State partners continue to increase 
investments in coastal protection and restoration, updating State-wide 
building codes, and creating new mitigation programs, the availability, 
affordability, and performance gaps threaten the future of many 
communities in our State. The lack of transparency and affordability 
for the National Flood Insurance Program mean that families are now 
priced out of their communities in some cases after investing their 
hard-earned funds to elevate their home as well as local taxation for 
flood protection. For wind insurance, the slow and convoluted claims 
process and the increasing reliance on the costly State insurer of last 
resort mean that recovery is slower, stressful, and often incomplete.
                               conclusion
    On behalf of the State of Louisiana, thank you again for holding 
this hearing and drawing attention to the needs of our community. Thank 
you for your attention to the challenges and complexities of recovery 
that all too often fade into the background once the immediate 
attention has passed. We should commit to leaning forward, removing 
duplicated programs, and effort to look at the process from the 
survivor's point of view. Working together, aligning efforts, and 
empowering communities to prepare for recovery in the same way they 
prepare for response will position us for the challenges ahead.

    Mr. D'Esposito. Thank you, Mr. Tingle.
    I now recognize Mrs. Granger for 5 minutes.

STATEMENT OF PAMELA GONZALES GRANGER, PRESIDENT/OWNER, MC BADE 
                  ENGINEERS & CONSULTANTS, LLC

    Mrs. Granger. Good morning, Chairman D'Esposito, Ranking 
Member Carter, Ranking Member Thompson, and other Members of 
the subcommittee. I am Pamela Gonzales Granger. I'm a 
practicing civil engineer in the State of Louisiana. I've been 
practicing for 29 years. I have a bachelor's and a master's 
degree. All of my clients are government clients, so I have 
chosen to spend the last 29 years helping our local, State, and 
Federal partners with recovery, with infrastructure projects, 
rather than doing any private development.
    I'm honored here to testify before you based upon my 
experience for the past 7 years, since the August 2016 flood 
that we commonly call DR-4277. That is when, in Youngsville, 
where I live and where my firm is and where I currently 
practice, we received more than 32 inches of rain in less than 
48 hours. So while it wasn't a hurricane, and we're about 40 
miles from the coast, we are tidally influenced. So what 
happens in Youngsville, adjacent communities, communities 
downstream, communities upstream, we are all in it together. 
We're all affected.
    The Hazard Mitigation Program is one of--what I feel--one 
of the best programs in order to work with mitigation of 
projects from disasters, such as the disaster 4277. Oftentimes, 
many small communities do not have the funds in order to do the 
projects that are really needed in order to reduce the base 
flood elevation. If we want to get flood insurance down, we 
really need--we need to focus on doing projects that reduce the 
base flood elevation.
    The two projects that we have experience in doing under 
this program not only benefited the city of Youngsville but 
local cities around parishes downstream and upstream. So 
programs like these need to be continued because local charters 
don't always allow you to spend money on projects that would 
help other communities, and your local charters usually want to 
keep your money within your community.
    But with that said, most small communities don't have the 
resources and don't have the experience with navigating the 
Hazard Mitigation Program and many of the Federal programs. 
Some might call it red tape. I refer to it as duct tape and a 
ball that you're trying to open up and spread and make one 
straight line.
    With that, there were many challenges, and that's what my 
testimony, my written testimony that I provided was based upon 
the challenges. While there are benefits and the projects are 
now complete, there are benefits of 4 to 12 inches of base 
flood reduction for many, many people within the community.
    But there were challenges with the procurement policy. 
There are challenges once the project is started with the 
goalpost moving as far as to what your requirements are. So you 
may start, and if there are modifications, you will submit 
plans, and you could be required to make modifications on some 
new procedure or process unbeknownst to you, delaying and 
causing increase in costs. When you apply for a project, you 
have to put all your funds at the beginning, and so those could 
change over time.
    There's also the challenge of the coordination and the 
review timing and the coordination of when to get the comments 
back. We always have a deadline on us as to when we have to 
provide comments, and we have to provide quarterly reports, but 
there don't appear to be deadlines on the opposite end.
    There needs to be--there is a central portal, which 
oftentimes doesn't work or has the inability to be used for 
certain times. Then if you successfully get it through, like we 
did on the projects, there comes the last challenge of 
reimbursements.
    While I recognize there are a lot of programs, we are only 
2 projects of 132 that went through the application process of 
DR-4277. We are the only 2 that went to construction, and here 
we are 7 years after that disaster.
    But with those reimbursements taking long, consultants like 
myself and the contractors are now footing the bill, because 
we're the ones that are waiting to be paid 90 to 120 days.
    I am a small business. So are these contractors. So we have 
a lot--with technology and the ability that we have before us, 
we have a lot of work to do. The program is really great. I 
look forward to working with anyone who would like to ask 
questions or work with me on some of the challenges and ideas 
because we lived it.
    So I thank you for the opportunity today, and look forward 
to answering any questions and helping you guys in the future.
    [The prepared statement of Mrs. Granger follows:]
             Prepared Statement of Pamela Gonzales Granger
                           November 28, 2023
                              introduction
    Good morning, Chairman D'Esposito, Ranking Member Carter, and other 
Members of the subcommittee. I am Pamela Gonzales Granger, PE, a 
practicing registered professional civil engineer, owner and principal 
engineer of McBade Engineers & Consultants, LLC in Youngsville, 
Louisiana. Currently, I own and manage a woman-owned small business 
civil engineering firm that provides professional civil engineering 
services to local and State governmental clients for infrastructure 
projects. I have been providing engineering modeling, planning, and 
design services to governmental clients for over 29 years.
    I am honored to testify today before your subcommittee based upon 
my personal experiences and my firm's experience over the past 7 years 
with implementing disaster recovery and mitigation projects within 
small local communities in Louisiana as part of the August 2016 flood 
known as DR 4277. I have personally led every project that my firm is 
involved in that is funded by both the Hazard Mitigation Program (HMGP) 
and HUD which are administered through the State of Louisiana through 
Governor's Office of Homeland Security and Emergency Preparedness 
(GOHSEP) and the Louisiana Office of Community Development through the 
Louisiana Watershed Initiative (LWI) Program, respectively as part of 
the recovery and mitigation efforts of DR 4277. I have first-hand 
knowledge of the Federal, State, and local coordination and 
implementation of disaster recovery and mitigation projects through the 
HMGP and LWI funding for the local communities of Youngsville and 
Church Point, Louisiana.
    My testimony today focuses on the needs, benefits, challenges, and 
areas where we can collectively improve on the coordination and 
implementation of the HMGP program, disaster recovery, and mitigation 
so that communities can recover, be more resilient, and implement 
projects that result in a reduction of flood levels and flood insurance 
premiums. My experience is based upon the two recent DR 4277 regional 
detention pond projects for the city of Youngsville, Louisiana.
  needs and benefits of hmgp and other federal programs for disaster 
 preparedness, recovery, and resilience for small and local communities
    The phrase ``water doesn't know political boundaries'' became very 
apparent to many small communities throughout Louisiana during the 
flood of August 2016. Many communities, including the city of 
Youngsville, recognized that drainage, stormwater management, and 
floodplain management was beyond what a community does just within its 
own corporate limits. Small communities where drainage is influenced by 
adjoining communities, communities downstream, and coastal tides must 
work on a regional basis and work with State and Federal partners to 
implement projects that positively impact a region.
    Many small communities have limited financial resources as well as 
staff resources that have the availability and experience to identify 
and implement projects and activities on a regional level. Most 
community charters prohibit and/or limit local funding for projects 
that may be more regional in impacts and location. This is why the need 
continues for Federal and State funding of projects that result in a 
regional impact on drainage, stormwater, and floodplain management.
    Projects like the city of Youngsville's Bailey Grove Regional 
Detention and Coulee LaSalle Regional Detention are great examples of 
how the local governments agreed to work together on the selection and 
implementation of regional projects with the HMGP funding appropriated 
for the ``Acadiana Region''. Both projects benefit the city of 
Youngsville, city of Broussard, Unincorporated Lafayette Parish, 
Vermilion Parish, Iberia Parish, and St. Martin Parish. None of the 
entities by themselves would have been able to fund $10 million in 
regional detention projects. The projects provide for a reduction of 4 
to 12 inches in 100-year Base Flood of the FEMA modeled channels of 
Coulee LaSalle and Bayou Parc Perdu depending upon where you are 
located along the channel within each City or Parish. In an area where 
most homes had on average 6 inches of water within the homes during the 
2016 flood, this is recognized as a significant benefit. In Youngsville 
alone there was more than an estimated $29 million in flood damage to 
homes in the areas of these channels.
    challenges with applications, implementation, and reimbursements
    After disasters like the 2016 flood or hurricanes, small municipal 
governments face a daunting task of recovery, typically with limited 
staff resources. Many small communities do not have full engineering 
departments or grant writers and have limited accounting staff.
   The Challenge of the Procurement Policy.--To apply for 
        Federal grant programs such as HMGP or BRIC, most small 
        communities need to hire a consultant due to limited internal 
        resources. Oftentimes, local communities such as Youngsville 
        would prefer to get consultants that are familiar with their 
        infrastructure and their needs to help them with the grant 
        application. Typically, the grant applications require a level 
        of engineering preliminary study and/or modeling to answer the 
        questions and score well on the application for approval. This 
        means the community must fund the grant writer with their own 
        funds to apply. Due to the level of engineering analysis, most 
        engineering firms will need to be funded to pursue grants. If 
        the grant application is approved and funded, the community 
        must follow procurement policy to select a firm. The firm that 
        applied for the funding is typically prohibited from submitting 
        for selection to perform the engineering. While communities 
        understand the need for the ``level playing field'' for 
        consultants, the current procurement policy adds several months 
        to a project for selection, adds cost for the new consultant to 
        learn about the system and costs to the community to fund the 
        applicant consultant to help the selected consultant with 
        understanding the system. This is counterproductive to recovery 
        in time and cost.
   The Challenge of Changing Requirements Once a Project is 
        Started.--Once the project is selected and moves forward, 
        grantees are given instructions with requirements and schedules 
        along with guidance documents. However, as new disasters occur 
        and new funding for those disasters become available, new 
        procedures, processes, and guidance documents are developed 
        with the intention of making it easier for the new applicants. 
        Two examples in our experience were the new algorithms and 
        process for the calculation of the Benefit Cost Analysis or BCA 
        and the Hydrologic and Hydraulic (H&H) Report Requirements. Our 
        project plans, specifications, benefit-cost ratio, and H&H 
        report were submitted in June 2021, but we received comments a 
        year later referring to a guidance document released after our 
        submittal. The BCA analysis was rejected due to new guidance 
        and tool kit that was not previously provided as a grantee for 
        DR 4277. While we understand and appreciate the importance of 
        the BCA and we acknowledge and agree we want to only spend 
        money on projects that provide a benefit that exceeds the cost, 
        a project that has been started should stay within the guidance 
        provided in the grant agreement as long as the grantee has been 
        making forward progress within the given project time and in 
        constant communication with the State partners. We must strive 
        to work together as to not move the goal post throughout the 
        life of the project.
   The Challenge of the Federal Partner Review and 
        Coordination.--As part of the grantee requirements, a quarterly 
        report must be submitted regarding the progress of the 
        projects. There is no requirement for the State and Federal 
        partners to provide quarterly or any regular updates to the 
        grantee regarding the review process during the application, 
        funding, or any submittal review phases. If there is a 
        requirement, we did not receive any regular correspondence on 
        our Youngsville projects.
    There are many schedule and time constraints that are placed on the 
        grantee for accountability but there are no schedule or time 
        constraints placed on the State and Federal partners to provide 
        anything to the grantee. The grantee's ability to get their 
        project approved, funded, and/or reviewed is directly related 
        to how much you constantly inquire, and the number and titles 
        of the individuals you copy on your inquiries. Our experience 
        on our two Youngsville projects was when you are unable to get 
        answers after several weeks and/or months on an inquiry, we 
        reached out to the staff of our Congressman.
    During the review process, significant delays occurred with 
        comments submitted from the Federal agency to the State agency 
        then to the grantee. The program would benefit tremendously 
        from a review comment system that was on a portal instead of 
        letters generated then sent to a desk for signature, then 
        emailed to one person then delays getting emailed to numerous 
        others before being sent to the grantee. Once the grantee 
        received comments, a 30-60-day deadline was typically given to 
        the grantee to respond to comments.
   The Challenge of a Central Portal.--Access to a central 
        portal that the local, State, and Federal partners can all 
        utilize is critical to the success of efficient and succinct 
        project implementation. A central portal should be where all 
        information is stored and where all partners can access the 
        same information and where alerts can be set to notify members 
        of submittal documents. A review comment section where all 
        partners provide comments and responses would make the process 
        more efficient and thorough.
    While a portal exists, during our project implementation the portal 
        experienced a lot of technical issues including document 
        reduction and failures to alert when documents are uploaded. 
        Due to the numerous technical issues and the inability for 
        everyone to use it efficiently, links to drop boxes had to be 
        created to submit documents for review.
   The Challenge of Reimbursements.--Most small communities 
        like the city of Youngsville do not have the funds to pay 
        consultants and contractors and then wait to be reimbursed by 
        the State. For the first phase of the projects, which is the 
        data collection, modeling, and design phase, the city of 
        Youngsville did pay us as the consultants as we submitted 
        invoices, as they had sufficient cash flow at the time of 
        design. Phase 1 of the two projects combined was less than $2.2 
        million. However, Phase 2 was almost $8 million for 
        construction, program management, construction management, and 
        construction observation services. The construction contracts 
        were for 9 months, which resulted in an average of $1 million a 
        month in construction and fees for the project. The city of 
        Youngsville does not have the amount of cash flow to pay 
        invoices then get reimbursed. The city of Youngsville has 
        experienced reimbursements and/or payments taking 90 to 120 
        days. This means that the contractors and engineers are funding 
        the Phase 2 of the projects by taking out loans to meet cash 
        flow to run their companies and paying interest on that money, 
        yet interest is not paid to contractors and consultants. At 
        that rate of reimbursement, consultants and contractors cannot 
        afford to be involved with multiple disaster recovery or 
        mitigation projects at a time. As a small business owner who is 
        passionate about helping small municipal clients like 
        Youngsville with disaster recovery, mitigation, and resilience, 
        the reimbursements are a significant challenge to the 
        sustainability of our company. Our experience in 2023 has 
        forced us to limit the number of clients we can assist with 
        Federal-funded programs at the same time, despite our success 
        in assisting our clients with navigating the process.
                                summary
    Disaster recovery, mitigation, and resiliency grant programs are 
highly regarded and well-intended. With the science and technology at 
our disposal it should not take the amount of time it takes to 
implement projects from inception to completion. The two city of 
Youngsville projects were 2 of 132 projects that received application 
approval under the HMGP for DR 4277. As of August 2023, only 3 of the 
132 projects were approved for Phase 2 which is construction. The city 
of Youngsville projects are the only 2 projects that have been 
constructed in the State under the HMGP for DR 4277, 7 years after the 
disaster.
    We must improve these numbers and statistics. Working together we 
can improve the programs to deliver high-quality projects quickly, 
efficiently, and cost-effectively. We can improve and/or eliminate 
every challenge identified.
    I thank you for the opportunity to testify today. I offer my 
assistance to work with and provide ideas to the State and Federal 
partners as well as this subcommittee from my perspective as consultant 
that not only designs but works as an extension of staff of a local 
community when working on projects that are Federally-funded. I am 
happy to answer any questions you may have.

    Mr. D'Esposito. Well, thank you, Mrs. Granger.
    Members will be recognized by order of seniority for their 
5 minutes of questioning. An additional round of questioning 
may be called after all Members have been recognized.
    I now recognize myself for 5 minutes.
    So again, I want to thank you all for being here. As 
someone who has spent his adult life in the emergency 
management world, I think one of the questions that we always 
ask ourselves is are we better off today than we were the last 
time we were faced with an emergency similar?
    Through all of your opening statements, I heard, you know, 
a common theme, coordination, being better prepared, having 
communication amongst all agencies.
    So, Mr. Tingle, I know we discussed much of this yesterday 
when we did our tour, but like many coastal States, I think New 
York--there are many coastal States that--we have flood-prone 
communities, but there are different challenges throughout 
different locations in the State. In New York, you know, Long 
Island, and my colleagues, Mr. Garbarino and Mr. LaLota, we 
face very different concerns on Long Island as they may in 
Buffalo and Syracuse and Westchester.
    So as someone who represents the entire State, how do you 
focus not only during emergencies but preparing for the next 
emergency to make sure that every area of the State of 
Louisiana has the proper resources that they need and that no 
one is neglected?
    Mr. Tingle. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, for the question. So 
on behalf of the State of Louisiana, we've got emergency 
management offices by law in each of our 64 parishes. We--as I 
mentioned in my opening statement, we have continued to pass 
along more of our EMPG funding to each of them.
    The best response is always the local response. So the 
better-positioned our local partners are, the better-positioned 
we as a State and we as a Nation will be. So we take that 
effort very seriously.
    So we work very closely with our locals. We view it as our 
job to support them, to help fill gaps for them, and to ensure 
that they are providing to us the information and the resource 
requests that they need so that we can benefit them timely. So 
I think it's that partnership that makes a difference on behalf 
of the State of Louisiana.
    Mr. D'Esposito. Thank you.
    I think one of the issues that we've been focused on in 
this committee, because I think it's important--you know, I 
always compare it to New York. I think about the aftermath of 
Hurricane Sandy and preparing and making sure that resources 
were allocated correctly throughout the State. There is no 
question that during emergencies, resources are allocated. I 
think that it's always in the best interest, but sometimes 
those resources are not allocated to the places that they 
really should be.
    One of the things that we have been focused on is making 
sure, and one of the reasons for this hearing, is that we are 
coordinated with all agencies, Federal, State, and local. 
Places like Louisiana, and I'll compare it to home on Long 
Island. I mean, on Long Island, our fire service is comprised 
of mostly volunteers from the city line all the way out to 
Montauk. The entire Long Island is pretty much volunteer fire 
service.
    Now, you take a large-scale emergency and you coordinate 
the local police departments, the emergency management system, 
the volunteer fire service, FEMA, Small Business 
Administration, there becomes a lot--there's a lot of cooks in 
the kitchen.
    What can we do better? I know that we have tried to push 
out the information to these smaller organizations and 
institutions to make sure that they have the ability to apply 
for the grant funding and they know the resources that are 
available. But what can we do better to make sure that it's not 
just the big organizations that are getting that large pot of 
money, that we can actually get into the communities, the 
smaller communities, the ones that actually really need the 
money and the resources to battle these emergencies?
    What can we all do better as Members of Congress and what 
can we do better as the Federal Government to make sure that 
they have--and really this question is to all of you. So if we 
want to start with Mr. Robinson and work our way down: What can 
we do better to make sure that even the smallest communities 
are getting the information that they need to be provided the 
resources to really help them survive?
    Mr. Robinson. Thank you, Chairman. I think your point on 
coordination and collaboration is key. We have to have built 
relationships before the event in emergency management. So for 
Region 6, we work very closely with all of our partners at the 
Federal and State level. I think the important thing that we 
really focused on in the last several years is, who are the 
influencers in communities? So there's faith-based 
organizations, the organizations that really have that 
grassroot connection that can get that information out to 
individuals.
    So those are some of the things that we're working on 
through our office and in coordination with our States.
    Mr. D'Esposito. Great.
    Mr. Sanchez.
    Mr. Sanchez. Thank you, Chairman, for the question. I think 
the coordination piece is critical. I think there's three ways 
to look at it from our function. It's coordinate, collaborate, 
and communicate. How do we coordinate with State, local, and 
Federal partners? How do we communicate all that information? 
How do we collaborate on the solutions that make sense for a 
community?
    You know, we're unique and interesting sort-of. We're 
opening access to Governors so they can make more disaster 
declarations, but we're leading from the ground up with local 
communities, making sure that when we go on the ground, we're 
learning from those local chambers, those local organizations, 
making sure that we're going where they are.
    So all the data-driven decisions we make also go into local 
communities for context to ensure that where we need to be, 
making sure there our programs get to those communities that 
need it, but that everyone is aware of that as well.
    Mr. D'Esposito. Great.
    Mr. Tingle.
    Mr. Tingle. I would add to that--and certainly would agree 
with those comments. I would add that in your role in 
particular, there is a balance between appropriate oversight 
and ensuring that taxpayer dollars are spent appropriately, and 
all of us, you know, certainly support that. But how you do 
that through policy, how you do that through legislation 
oftentimes ends up meaning that we spend more money trying to 
manage the dollar than we're actually implementing.
    So to Mrs. Granger's point earlier on her comments, I would 
just say that as we create legislation, as we review policies 
in the Stafford Act and other places, the ability to reduce 
complexity. There is only so much technical assistance that we 
can provide to communities. If the barrier to those programs 
and the level of sophistication that you have to have and 
experience to navigate them is, in many cases, a turnoff to 
communities. They're afraid of accessing. They're afraid of 
getting something wrong. They're afraid of the claw-back on the 
backside of doing something.
    So I would just advocate strongly for balancing that 
oversight component with is the complexity that we are 
including to get that oversight also costing us money and the 
opportunity cost that communities are not accessing those 
programs because they are afraid of that complexity.
    Mr. D'Esposito. Thank you, Mr. Tingle.
    Mrs. Granger, I'm over my time, but if you could be brief 
to that question and, I guess specifically, how small business 
is affected and how we can do better for that.
    Mrs. Granger. Well, I think to get to the community, like 
you said, right now the money goes to the State, the State to 
parishes, from our perspective, all this competition from the 
State divvying up on the HMGP. If it actually went to the 
communities directly, if there was a way you could, no 
different than how some COVID money was able to be worked with 
projects directly with the communities. There's just lots of 
levels. If there was a way that it doesn't have to always go 
through three to four levels, that would be one.
    From a small business, just like anything else, there are 
some Federal programs where it's mandated small businesses have 
to be paid within a certain amount of time. I mean, putting 
that onus on whoever it is that's doing it, there's a--we have 
time limits. Contractors have time limits with liquidated 
damages. I'm just saying putting it on folks to have time 
limits on what they do as well.
    Mr. D'Esposito. Thank you.
    With the red dot, I've clearly violated my time limit.
    But I now recognize my good friend--and thank you again for 
having us and welcoming us--the gentleman from Louisiana, Mr. 
Carter.
    Mr. Carter. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    I mentioned earlier the National Flood Insurance Program 
Risk Rating 2.0 has caused hardships for many property owners 
in New Orleans and throughout Louisiana. FEMA professes that 
Risk Rating 2.0 is a better solution to managing flood risk. 
But when I talk to those who are impacted, with the high--
higher and rising flood insurance programs, I hear something 
totally different.
    When Secretary Mayorkas was before our committee, I 
challenged him on the reality of what Risk Rating 2.0 is doing 
to many underserved communities and many communities, period, 
throughout Louisiana, Mississippi, and many other States. He 
then recognized and acknowledged publicly that it is a work in 
progress and we have to continue to work on ways to make it 
better and more equitable.
    Mr. Tingle, can you discuss the impacts of Risk Rating 2.0 
on Louisianians?
    Mr. Tingle. I will do my best, sir. You certainly laid out 
some important information there which I would agree with. 
There are two--amongst the whole realm of Risk Rating 2.0 and 
some of the challenges there, there are two things that I would 
point out to the committee for consideration.
    No. 1 is, under the legacy system of NFIP, there was a 
great deal of transparency in terms of, if I elevate my house a 
foot, 2 feet, 3 feet, I can estimate with some deal of clarity 
what the reduction in my policy premium is going to be. There 
was a--not a strict calculation but a general sense of every 
foot that you elevated a house what your savings was going to 
be. That no longer exists under Risk Rating 2.0. So that lack 
of transparency with what can I do to my house to lower my 
premium, I think there are some things in progress, but that 
clearly was not the case with the initial rollout and, clearly, 
more work needs to be done there.
    Then the second critical point that I would highlight is 
just the need for an affordability program to be able to offset 
some of those costs. From my perspective, rolling out the 
premium change without a corresponding affordability program is 
devastating to so many coastal communities in the State of 
Louisiana and other States as well.
    Mr. Carter. Thank you.
    It's literally causing people to have to make the 
determination can they afford to live in the home that in many 
cases they've paid for and now find themselves with not a house 
note but a flood insurance note that oftentimes is more 
expensive than the house note itself.
    Mr. Robinson--thank you, Regional Administrator Robinson, 
for listening and being a part of the discussion. Has FEMA 
considered exploring a means-based assistance program as 
recommended by the GAO report entitled, ``Flood Insurance: 
FEMA's New Rate-Setting Methodology Improves Soundness but 
Highlights Need for a Broader Program.'' This study really 
spelled out a lot of the issues that are there.
    Can you share with us your thoughts on what you guys are 
doing to recognize some of these?
    Mr. Robinson. Thank you, Congressman Carter. As you all 
know, insurance obviously is a great way for individuals to 
recover much more quickly in a disaster. So Risk Rating 2.0 
established the flood insurance premium on each individual 
home's unique flood risk. So we know increasing premiums are a 
challenge. The agency has submitted an affordability framework 
to Congress that I believe does take into consideration some of 
the GAO considerations.
    For my commitment to you as Region 6 regional administrator 
and the things that I can control, we're going to continue to 
work very closely with the State to look at mitigation measures 
that we can put into effect that lower the risk to homeowners 
that would bring those insurance premiums down. The other thing 
that we are very aggressive on is getting communities to 
participate in the community rating system, and that can enable 
5 to 45 percent reduction in insurance rates depending on a 
community's community rating system rating.
    Mr. Carter. Thank you.
    It's an on-going issue. We'll continue to bring it back. 
You've not--this is not the first time you've heard me say 
this. It comes up in every committee that we have.
    With my remaining time, which I'm running close to, 
Associate Administrator Sanchez, in my opening remarks I talked 
about the increased burden that small businesses have. Every 
time there's a storm, we have to--many small business owners 
have to make loans every time there's a natural disaster to get 
their businesses back up. We know the benefit of small 
businesses. They're the backbone of our community. They hire 
people. They pay sales taxes. Sales taxes pay for police and 
fire and other resources. Yet they continue to be strangled 
with loan after loan after loan.
    I have spoken with the administrator repeatedly, and I'll 
ask you the same question: Where do we stand on working on loan 
forgiveness? We forgive small countries. We forgive financial 
institutions and automobile institutions. What about a 
forgiveness program for small businesses that will allow them 
to continue to provide jobs and resources?
    Mr. Sanchez. Ranking Member, thanks for that question. It 
is a concern that we hear repeatedly and one that--we can't by 
law forgive loans, but we do everything we can within our 
authorities to address those challenges. I want to thank you 
for the opportunity to invite our staff on a regular basis to 
help prepare businesses here in advance of hurricanes----
    Mr. Carter. You guys have done a great job with that, by 
the way. So I want to thank you and your local team, as with 
everyone at the table. All of you have been great. The 
questions that we pose to you are not to pick on you but 
questions that we continue to wrestle with.
    Mr. Sanchez. Yes. So within our authorities, here's some of 
the things. We can't forgive loans, but we're looking for ways 
to reduce that impact to be more customer-friendly. One of 
those is reducing--extending the deferment period for an 
initial loan for 12 months and zero interest. We're also--we 
talk about mitigation. SBA is often the first and only Federal 
agency on the ground. We talked about Louisiana, for example. 
Of the 36 disasters in the past 10 years, 17 of those has been 
SBA agency declarations, and we're the only agency on the 
ground for those and those smaller disasters, and they add up 
when businesses are impacted over and over.
    On the mitigation front, as we're pushing that program so 
that hopefully businesses in coastal communities or that are 
impacted again and again don't have to even come back to us 
again. So for right now we've prioritized our mitigation 
lending program. So fiscal year 2022, there were only $6 
million--I'm sorry--about $9 million in mitigation lending. 
We've prioritized education so that businesses know that they 
have the opportunity to mitigate when they're facing a 
disaster. We've increased that from about $9 million to $66 
million. It's almost three times what we did the previous year 
in loan amounts. So within our constraints working to 
prioritize mitigation so they don't have to come for us for 
additional----
    Mr. Carter. So real quickly. I'm over my time, and the 
Chairman has been very generous, but I'm going to end real 
quickly. You indicated it's not. What's the impediment? Tell me 
if the impediment is--as Congress we're more than ready to 
remove that impediment and we'd like to know will we have your 
support in doing so.
    Mr. Sanchez. Sir, it is something that we hear. It's 
consistent frustration from--and I know businesses and 
homeowners that are repeatedly having to come to SBA loans 
would be appreciative of.
    Mr. Carter. Good enough. We'll have a bill before end's 
week.
    I yield back.
    Mr. D'Esposito. Thank you, Mr. Ranking Member.
    Now I recognize the Ranking Member of the entire committee, 
Mr. Thompson.
    Mr. Thompson. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.
    Mrs. Granger, I feel your pain. I have two working 
disasters going in my district. One of the things I have 
historically promoted is for people in the local area to get 
employed, either through the local hire program at FEMA or as a 
subcontractor or contractor in their respective community.
    Now, we have some challenges. One is a majority of my 
emergency manager jurors in my counties are part-time. That 
means that, you know, they're the veterans service officer or 
they're the farmer or something like that. So some of the 
training and certifications that are required kind-of hit-and-
miss. But what happens with an engineering firm is the big boys 
show up and just gobble up everything, and so a company like 
yours is just kind-of pushed to the side.
    I'm looking for what safeguards can we put in place so that 
local businesses who have capacity won't be pushed to the side. 
Can you help me with that?
    Mrs. Granger. Yes, sir. Thank you for the question. Well, 
just like the Federal Government has the 8(a) set-aside program 
where you can give Federal contracts to somebody that's 8(a), 
why couldn't the Government say--if it's a small business in 
that community and it's that community's trusted advisor, why 
can't they use those communities? That's what I meant by the 
procurement policy.
    Because right now the procurement policy says, if I help my 
community write the application, because I know everything 
about it and I work as their extension of staff, I can't then 
do the work, and that big firm comes in, and the big firms know 
that. So they wait for the little firms who are working with 
the communities to help them in the recovery, identify the 
project, write the grant, and then they come in when you have 
to go through Federal procurement policy, if you get the 
Federal loan, and that's how they come in.
    So modifications to that Federal procurement policy. 
Because if the Federal Government can say if you're in 8(a) you 
can get direct, which I totally agree with, the whole idea is 
the level playing field. I don't think the Federal procurement 
policy with the level playing field was trying to keep small 
businesses out. I think they were trying to help small 
business. The problem is the way it's written and the way it 
goes.
    That would be one thing, I think, because I think a lot of 
times a lot of these small communities are saying, I don't want 
to work with them. So they're going to not put the application 
in, and I'm not going to put the application in for a large 
firm to come in. Because the other thing that happens, Mr. 
Thompson, is that the small community will have to pay me so 
that I can explain to the large firm what to do.
    Mr. Thompson. Yes. Let me give you another issue for--Mr. 
Tingle, is--and I'll get to Mr. Robinson on the second round. 
FEMA approves the reimbursement, and it comes to the State. It 
takes longer for the State to approve the reimbursement that 
FEMA has already approved. So you have Mrs. Granger and other 
subs out there, you know, they've done everything they need. 
What is it you think we could do to streamline just the 
reimbursement if it goes straight to FEMA and FEMA says, OK, 
since we're putting the money in, we approve it? Help us out.
    Mr. Tingle. Sure. So a bit of context, from my experience, 
is the one piece of that puzzle that I think would be most 
helpful here is if the FEMA approval included language that 
they are approving that the costs that they've reviewed are 
reasonable and that the execution of those costs is in line 
with their rules. The way it stands now, the FEMA approval 
doesn't cover all of the things that have to be provided at 
audit, and it leaves the State at some risk that if anything 
about that process is incomplete, FEMA's going to ask for the 
money back, and the State is the first in line to have to deal 
with that claw-back.
    So right now there is a bit of risk that some of the things 
that FEMA does and some of the flexibility that they offer 
helps them, but it doesn't necessarily resolve risk at the 
State or local level.
    Mr. Thompson. So is there a time limit that the State is 
required to complete that review?
    Mr. Tingle. So there is a time limit between the State and 
locals. In terms of what we respond to FEMA with, I would just 
clarify that I think that the answer to that question is more 
that what is not time-based in terms of FEMA policy is the time 
for which they have to act.
    Mr. Thompson. OK. On the second round, Mr. Robinson, you 
can get ready for that.
    Mr. D'Esposito. Do you want to do it while you're at it?
    Mr. Thompson. Well, OK.
    Well, Mr. Robinson, how do you help us streamline 
reimbursement after disaster for contractors like Mrs. Granger?
    Mr. Robinson. So, obviously, one of the most important 
things that we do is the reimbursement process. So a couple of 
things--and I'll just highlight a couple of things that Casey 
talked about. I think one of the things that we see as audits 
come out, especially long, high-dollar amounts, that really 
puts a risk base on the State who is our primary recipient. So 
when there's an issue, that's who we ask for money back for. So 
where we see big audits, I think that really slows down the 
process because there's a lot of fear in the system about, have 
I done everything correctly?
    So in Region 6, some of the things that we're doing is 
we're really focusing on a predisaster procurement training, 
and so we get out, work with our States, work for the locals on 
the things that they need to be looking out for, so the small 
business set-aside clauses and contracts. Because the last 
thing we want them to do is go through a contract. What we see 
in audits is about 60 percent of them are either based on 
audits--or procurement or documentation.
    So we want to make sure that we're addressing that and 
training up-front so that those aren't issues that they deal 
with on the back end of a disaster and slows down 
reimbursement.
    Mr. Thompson. Does that make sense, Mrs. Granger?
    Mrs. Granger. Well, maybe to them. I think what he's trying 
to say is that there's--I think a lot of people are so risk-
averse that they're just taking their time and they're looking 
for everything. But if there's a issue or if there's something 
that you're risk-averse about and you have a question, they do 
not pick up the phone, nor--or they--you know, contact the 
local. If there's a question with something on procurement, if 
there's a question with something on an invoice or whatever, 
they're not readily picking up the phone saying, I've got it in 
front of me, I've got these questions. That is not what 
happens.
    What happens is, when you wait, you're calling and saying, 
What seems to be the issue? Nobody can give you that answer.
    Mr. Thompson. OK. So we need to look somehow at, if there's 
an issue with the reimbursement, the person who finds the issue 
needs to contact the company right then. Make sense.
    Mrs. Granger. Yes, sir.
    Mr. Thompson. So is that--now, that's the State.
    Mr. Tingle. Yes, sir. So we've got primary responsibility 
there. I would say that one thing that I think should be 
considered here is that we've made a lot of progress under 
public assistance grants with finding ways to improve the cash 
flow. So when the administration raised the cap of the small 
project threshold, for example, to a million dollars, that 
greatly relieved the administrative burden on State and locals 
to expedite cash flow. That only applies to public assistance. 
If we could do something like that under the Hazard Mitigation 
Program, regardless where the threshold is, that just simply 
said that, once approved, that grant can be paid out to the 
subgrantee, I think that would be a great step forward.
    Mr. Thompson. Thank you.
    Thank you, Mr. Chair.
    Mr. D'Esposito. Thank you, Mr. Ranking Member.
    So, Mr. Tingle, in your previous role as assistant deputy 
director for hazard mitigation assistance for the Governor's 
Office of Homeland Security and Emergency Preparedness for the 
State of Louisiana, you oversaw the Hazard Mitigation Grant 
Program, the Flood Mitigation Assistance, and Pre-Disaster 
Mitigation Grant Program that collectively represented $2.5 
billion in projects to protect people and property from natural 
disasters.
    I think something that we've seen in many States--and I 
think it's one of the questions or the comments that I posed in 
the beginning was that as emergency managers we always try to 
be better off today than we were at the last emergency.
    So we've seen during storms, we've seen even during the 
COVID-19 pandemic, that proactive--or I should say at that 
point reactive--reactive governments often make changes. I 
mean, you look at COVID, and there are many municipalities that 
made building and zoning changes so that restaurants and small 
businesses could stay afloat and keep their doors open.
    So through that $2.5 billion that has been allocated, have 
you seen in Louisiana that it's been used the right way? Are 
people and are the local municipalities changing and making 
changes to their, let's say, their building codes, you know, 
their flood plain management? Are they making the necessary 
changes so that this money is actually being utilized correctly 
to prepare us for the future?
    Mr. Tingle. Yes, sir. So unlike some of the former 
questions, that one is easy. The answer is yes. So in support 
of our local partners, I think as we saw some elevations as we 
drove around yesterday, we saw houses that are 3, 4 feet above 
the ground today so that in a future rainfall event, while the 
street may flood, while the yard may have water, the home is 
going to be safe. So that's true across coastal Louisiana, 
across many parts of Louisiana.
    The level of engagement at the local level to pursue these 
mitigation programs, to execute these mitigation programs, as 
Mrs. Granger has outlined, the patience and the persistence 
that it takes, that's true across Louisiana. I'm proud of those 
local partners and all the work they do in interfacing both 
with homeowners and property owners as well as doing community-
based projects.
    So in terms of where we've progressed to, that's one of the 
changes. The projects Mrs. Granger mentioned are not individual 
home elevations. They are detention projects that are finding a 
way to hold rainfall so that it doesn't immediately go in the 
street or immediately flood. We've got projects like that in 
the city of New Orleans as well.
    Mr. D'Esposito. Now, I know this was discussed yesterday 
when we did the tour, and I guess it's really something that 
comes up whenever you talk about emergencies: It brings out the 
very best in people and, unfortunately, brings out the very 
worst in people. So I know that we had briefly touched on it 
yesterday while we were in our tour. But I think it's 
important, because when you see a number like $2.5 billion--and 
perhaps Mrs. Granger can comment on this, but I know a lot of 
your work has been with government.
    But in addition to the obvious, when we talk about this 
$2.5 billion, we talk about investing in infrastructure, we 
talk about raising homes and businesses, we talk about making 
our communities more resilient, what also has been done in 
order to protect communities and residents from the fraud that 
we've seen with contractors and especially targeting seniors 
and people who are in the communities that--you know, we see 
it--I know where I live on Long Island, we still have homes 
that are in the air, you know, not put back on their foundation 
yet because they had a contractor that came in and completely 
took them for their money and you never see them again. I know 
that the prosecutors in the area have worked with Consumer 
Affairs in order to prosecute these individuals, but there's 
also been laws changed, local laws changed in order to tighten 
up the ship.
    Maybe you can comment on the work that's been done. Because 
we don't want to see another $2.5 billion be used and people 
being taken advantage of again.
    Mr. Tingle. Certainly. So at a community-based project, 
there's very little risk there. In terms of the procurement 
guideline, the process that has to go through, all of that gets 
sorted out. I think the existing challenge is when an 
individual family receives a grant to raise their house, to 
rebuild their house----
    Mr. D'Esposito. Right.
    Mr. Tingle [continuing]. And they're not familiar with 
construction, this may be the first construction project that 
they have had to go through.
    So for the State of Louisiana, there's really two things 
that I would highlight. One is, in all of our reconstruction 
programs, using like HUD CDBG dollars, there's a program by 
which the State can handle all of that administrative burden, 
finding the contractor, doing the contracting, and the 
homeowner is just supporting that work. Then the second piece 
is, in our mitigation programs, everything is milestone-based. 
That first milestone that--in fact, the project can't even kick 
off until the contract's been put forward, the contractor shows 
what they're going to do, they've been vetted. So all of that 
money is really based upon actual performance, and requiring 
that has been a significant step forward.
    Mr. D'Esposito. Right. So they don't move forward unless 
they meet the benchmarks?
    Mr. Tingle. That's correct.
    Mr. D'Esposito. OK. Mrs. Granger, did you want to comment 
on that?
    Mrs. Granger. Quickly. I did flood as well, and I had flood 
insurance, and I can tell you, you should put the--I was not 
required. I'm in zone X. But the money went to Wells Fargo, who 
has my house--home loan. They were extremely strict, to the 
point they didn't want to take my license for me to be able to 
redo it.
    So lots of our--if they were given grants and it was 
administered the way Wells Fargo administered me, working on my 
house with my flood insurance money, would be really--because 
there was no way somebody was going to be able to do it without 
having all of the credentials. It took several layers for them 
to understand I had the credentials. We design the plans 
contractors put together. But I think that there are things 
that could be in place.
    While it is great for the homeowner to get the money, like 
he said, a lot of them don't know what to do. So I think, 
obviously, if it was given, whether it's given--if they still 
have a loan, if the flood insurance has to go back to the 
mortgage company, maybe the grants should too. Because the 
mortgage companies send inspectors out there and the mortgage--
while it is a--I didn't like having to necessarily go through 
it, but there were several layers.
    Mr. D'Esposito. Yes.
    Mrs. Granger. You did have to have an actual license, 
because it's their risk. It's their home.
    Mr. D'Esposito. Right. To that point, I think that's what's 
important. I think that learning from mistakes, not just here 
in Louisiana but, you know, back on Long Island and in New 
York, I think that the licensing of these contractors and the 
oversight of them is super important. When we're investing 
billions of dollars, there should be an investment in the 
oversight of these contractors as well, so that, you know, the 
$2.5 billion is actually spent correctly so that we're not, 
unfortunately, giving it and then giving it to some contractor 
who's disappearing.
    Like we talked about yesterday, you know, the Government is 
not in the business of just replacing another loan because you 
got had by a really bad contractor.
    So I appreciate it.
    My time has expired.
    Mr. Carter.
    Mr. Carter. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    Mrs. Granger, you brought to light a question that I heard 
and comments that I've heard from people regularly where 
there's few advocates for small business people throughout the 
State of Louisiana. When we talk about communication, 
coordination, and collaboration, that's a real issue, making 
sure that small businesses get what they need and that they're 
not strangled waiting for payment.
    You've got listening ears here. You've got listening ears 
here. Tell us how we can use the resources of Congress to make 
that easier, to demonstrate that we're going to use our 
influence to make sure that small businesses are paid timely. 
Because waiting 30, 60, 90, 120 days and beyond is not 
sustainable for a small business owner. Having a tier 1, tier 
2, tier 3 approach where someone gets a contract in the matter 
of natural disasters, the prime gets a contract here, they 
siphon off all the profit. By the time it gets down to the 
person that actually does the work, there's very little profit 
there, if any.
    Share with me your view on how we can do better. Casey, if 
you can chime in, and then we'll move down the line. Because 
this is an issue that I think each of you can use your silver 
bullet, if you will, to--let's figure out how we can do better 
by that--small businesses can't afford to be strangled--making 
sure that we provide resources for them that they can access 
and maintain their businesses and not be offered at the last-
minute literally pennies on the dollar for work that they've 
already completed.
    Mrs. Granger. Thank you.
    I think there are--in other agencies and other programs 
some of those types of things you're talking about are already 
there. So I think Congress and the Federal Government has done 
that. For example, in the CDBG program, we do plenty of grant 
work in the CDBG program, and we get paid very quickly, as do 
the contractors. When the community gets paid, they have to pay 
I think within 7 days. So that's one of the programs that we 
know on the State and the Federal level has worked very well 
with regards to payment. There's a process. They have it down 
pat, never been a problem in collecting from that particular 
program.
    I know when you do certain types of projects for the Corps 
of Engineers, they have requirements to pay within a certain 
amount. If it's a small business, especially if you have a 
small business sub--so if you were working for one of those 
large firms, you have to be paid within a certain amount of 
time.
    So I think that things need to be written in disaster 
funding. So when disaster funding comes out and the bill comes 
out, a lot of times there are things that are either added to 
it or not. So I believe that that could be put in as to here's 
some requirements, but requirements--and they would have to 
have, you know, from a State level what requirements they need 
with regards to what they're responsible for. But I do believe 
that it could be written in that if it's a small business, 
and--that we're always saying and Federal procurement policy 
always says use a small business, you get more points, 
different things, but then they don't necessarily always 
safeguard, so people might have----
    Mr. Carter. Or they oftentimes use a small business to get 
a contract and then--these are stories that we hear regularly--
--
    Mrs. Granger. That's correct.
    Mr. Carter [continuing]. That a small business, a minority, 
a disadvantaged business, a woman-owned business, an African-
American-owned business is used to get the contract, to get 
those scores, but then when it's time to use them, either they 
don't use them or they underutilize them. Therefore, they've 
gotten the benefit, but then they're throwing the resource 
away. So the person who's the business owner still got the 
shaft.
    Mrs. Granger. Correct. We deal with that all the time where 
folks will ask us and we have been on contracts where a large 
firm was selected and we got no work. I have no idea how they 
reported and how they were able to get funded, but they did get 
contracts and we were not part of any of them.
    Mr. Carter. Thank you.
    Casey.
    Mr. Tingle. Thank you, Ranking Member Carter. A couple of 
points. One, both public assistance and hazard mitigation 
funding are premised on the model that they are reimbursement 
programs, and the assumption being made there is that the local 
entity who's executing the project is going to be the one that 
is paying the bill and then getting reimbursed for what they've 
paid through the grant program.
    The reality is that that's not practically how it works and 
it's, in most cases, not feasible for a surge of recovery funds 
to come to a local government and that their budget is going to 
be able to cash-flow those things and execute a reimbursement 
program.
    So I think the fundamental premise needs to be revisited 
that a reimbursement-based program, while on an annual grant 
process may work because you've got the ability to sort-of 
budget and plan for those dollars, it doesn't work in a 
disaster response or recovery context because your budget is 
not foreseeing that surge in funding that in some cases may 
exceed your annual budget by just the funds that come from one 
disaster event. That's the first point.
    The second point, on the contracting piece, I would think 2 
CFR here is limiting in terms of the flexibility to be able to 
make some of those local decisions about procurement. What we 
have done in response to that, for example, to your point, when 
we executed our Ida Sheltering Program, instead of having one 
prime company do all of the haul and installs, we issued 
probably 8 contracts, so that we could ensure that there was 
local participation, there was small business participation, 
and we gave multiple firms a chance to perform and then make 
assignments based upon that performance.
    So I think breaking those large contracts into smaller 
contracts, making them more responsive----
    Mr. Carter. That helped. That helped a lot. But I'll tell 
you what still needs to be a little further tweaking. So I want 
to compliment you on that. But now we've got to make sure that 
that tier system of tier 1, 2, 3, 4, whatever, that person at 
the bottom who ends up doing the real work gets paid the 
smallest amount. The people at the top tier take their money 
off the top, and then they sub it out. The person that's a 
local vendor, the person that's a DBE vendor, the person that 
is the actual expert in the subject matter, they're left with 
nothing in most cases. We've got to dive deeper into how we can 
fix that tier system. I think breaking it into 8 was a good 
start, but now we've got to break it a little bit further.
    I know I'm far exceeding my time. Please finish your 
thought.
    Mr. Tingle. Just I would agree with you. I think it's more 
work on the State. In this case it certainly was, but it was 
worthwhile work. The less subcontracting that goes on and the 
more direct contracts you have to execute that work I think is 
a helpful step.
    Mr. Carter. As I relinquish my time, one other comment I 
want to make and then I'm going to shut up, is that we have to 
make sure that we have emphasis on using local vendors in the 
area where we've had the disaster. The last thing, the insult 
to injury to local contractors is to watch people from other 
parishes, States, and communities come in to rebuild 
communities after a storm when, in fact, people that live in 
those communities have the requisite skills to do it 
themselves. Why not have people that live in that community 
rebuild their community and also rebuild the economy?
    I yield.
    Mr. D'Esposito. Thank you, Mr. Ranking Member.
    I now recognize Mr. Thompson.
    Mr. Thompson. Well, the easy answer to the contracting is, 
if the person who's doing the contracting is paid the same 
money for doing one contract as he would do or she would do for 
8, they'll do one and watch TV and drink coffee the rest of the 
day. But if you say you have to do these contracts in order to 
perform, that's different. I think that's part of, I think, 
what we're going to have to talk about as a committee, is how 
do we do that?
    The other thing about the tiering, after tier 2, FEMA 
doesn't get involved in a subcommittee--in a subcontractors' 
debate. So the low person on the totem pole who's doing the 
work, who's getting messed over doesn't really have anybody to 
complain to because there's no authority. So I think we have to 
fix some of that, because we see it all the time, when a large 
contractor comes in, do one sub, that sub has standing, but the 
next person, out of luck.
    So I just think--has that been your experience, Mr. 
Robinson?
    Mr. Robinson. Yes. Certainly I think that tiered approach, 
like you said, the sub is a responsible contractor, what goes 
on below that. I think as we had this discussion today, I think 
something certainly we look at in our procurement training is 
how do we talk about language in request for proposals that 
kind-of keep that from happening. So certainly something we'll 
take back and look at from our training perspective on how to 
advise on a request for a proposal.
    Mr. Thompson. Yes. The other public policy question is, in 
vulnerable communities, primarily low-income, African American, 
or whatever, there are very few building codes. So when you 
have a disaster and, you know, here comes FEMA to the rescue, 
and then you get to Rolling Fork, Mississippi, and they don't 
have building codes. Then you say, Well, we can't help you 
because you don't have building codes. So we spend months 
trying to get that in place. But to that local person, you 
know, you need help right then.
    So it's been a challenge. I'm not certain what the answer 
is, other than continue to try to educate the communities that, 
if danger comes or disaster comes, in order for help to be on 
time and responsive, you have to have this. But then you have 
to have a system in place that manages it. You can't just have 
it on the books, like we found in other areas. But that's been 
a major frustration, especially with rural folk.
    The majority of my district is rural, and people just don't 
want you to tell them what to do with their own land, you know. 
I raise chickens on it and my granddaddy did. So that's been a 
real challenge.
    But I think the Federal, State, local response, back to one 
of the other comments, it has to be coordinated. The minute an 
impacted community gets a different response from one of those 
entities, then it runs off the rails after that. So I would 
stress making sure that the coordination of the effort is 
consistent in any disaster we do, because those vulnerable 
communities are the ones that risk the most, because they don't 
have working knowledge of how. The Katrina experience here is 
the gold standard for what not to do.
    I encourage all of the parties here to remember all those 
horror stories we heard and saw. I would hope that at this 
point, over this period of time, a lot of those issues have 
been resolved, so that, God forbid, if it happens again, it 
won't be to the level of what we had.
    But, Mr. Chairman, I just thank you and Mr. Carter for 
having the hearing. It's an expensive proposition. I have a 
number of communities, this is their second disaster, and you 
go tell that family, FEMA can't fix your house the second time 
because we fixed it the first time. Then, you know--but they 
don't have insur---I mean, it's the challenges that a lot of 
communities we care a lot about are having. It's quite a 
challenge, to say the least.
    So I thank you again, Mr. Chairman.
    Mr. D'Esposito. Thank you.
    Thank you again to our witnesses. I also want to give a 
sincere thanks to Southern University for hosting us, as well 
as the Homeland Security staff for putting this hearing 
together.
    The Members of the subcommittee may have some additional 
questions for the witnesses and we would ask that the witnesses 
respond to these in writing. Pursuant to committee rule VII(D), 
the hearing record will be held open for 10 days.
    Again, thank you all very much. We appreciate your work. 
Stay safe. Have a blessed holiday season.
    Without objection, this subcommittee stands adjourned.
    Thank you.
    [Whereupon, at 9:32 a.m., the subcommittee was adjourned.]

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