[House Hearing, 118 Congress]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]


                   THE COLLAPSE OF PRIVATE PRACTICE:
                    EXAMINING THE CHALLENGES FACING
                          INDEPENDENT MEDICINE

=======================================================================

                                HEARING

                               BEFORE THE

                         SUBCOMMITTEE ON HEALTH

                                 OF THE

                      COMMITTEE ON WAYS AND MEANS
                        HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

                    ONE HUNDRED EIGHTEENTH CONGRESS

                             SECOND SESSION

                               __________

                              MAY 23, 2024

                               __________

                          Serial No. 118-HL04

                               __________

         Printed for the use of the Committee on Ways and Means
         
[GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

                               __________

                   U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE                    
56-472 PDF                  WASHINGTON : 2024                    
          
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                      COMMITTEE ON WAYS AND MEANS

                    JASON SMITH, Missouri, Chairman
VERN BUCHANAN, Florida               RICHARD E. NEAL, Massachusetts
ADRIAN SMITH, Nebraska               LLOYD DOGGETT, Texas
MIKE KELLY, Pennsylvania             MIKE THOMPSON, California
DAVID SCHWEIKERT, Arizona            JOHN B. LARSON, Connecticut
DARIN LaHOOD, Illinois               EARL BLUMENAUER, Oregon
BRAD WENSTRUP, Ohio                  BILL PASCRELL, Jr., New Jersey
JODEY ARRINGTON, Texas               DANNY DAVIS, Illinois
DREW FERGUSON, Georgia               LINDA SANCHEZ, California
RON ESTES, Kansas                    TERRI SEWELL, Alabama
LLOYD SMUCKER, Pennsylvania          SUZAN DelBENE, Washington
KEVIN HERN, Oklahoma                 JUDY CHU, California
CAROL MILLER, West Virginia          GWEN MOORE, Wisconsin
GREG MURPHY, North Carolina          DAN KILDEE, Michigan
DAVID KUSTOFF, Tennessee             DON BEYER, Virginia
BRIAN FITZPATRICK, Pennsylvania      DWIGHT EVANS, Pennsylvania
GREG STEUBE, Florida                 BRAD SCHNEIDER, Illinois
CLAUDIA TENNEY, New York             JIMMY PANETTA, California
MICHELLE FISCHBACH, Minnesota        JIMMY GOMEZ, California
BLAKE MOORE, Utah
MICHELLE STEEL, California
BETH VAN DUYNE, Texas
RANDY FEENSTRA, Iowa
NICOLE MALLIOTAKIS, New York
MIKE CAREY, Ohio
                       Mark Roman, Staff Director
                 Brandon Casey, Minority Chief Counsel
                                 ------                                

                         SUBCOMMITTEE ON HEALTH

                    VERN BUCHANAN, Florida, Chairman
ADRIAN SMITH, Nebraska               LLOYD DOGGETT, Texas
MIKE KELLY, Pennsylvania             MIKE THOMPSON, California
BRAD WENSTRUP, Ohio                  EARL BLUMENAUER, Oregon
GREG MURPHY, North Carolina          TERRI SEWELL, Alabama
KEVIN HERN, Oklahoma                 JUDY CHU, California
CAROL MILLER, West Virginia          DWIGHT EVANS, Pennsylvania
BRIAN FITZPATRICK, Pennsylvania      DANNY DAVIS, Illinois
CLAUDIA TENNEY, New York             DON BEYER, Virginia
BLAKE MOORE, Utah
MICHELLE STEEL, California
                        
                        
                        C  O  N  T  E  N  T  S

                              ----------                              

                           OPENING STATEMENTS

                                                                   Page
Hon. Vern Buchanan, Florida, Chairman............................     1
Hon. Lloyd Doggett, Texas, Ranking Member........................     2
Advisory of May23, 2024 announcing the hearing...................     V

                               WITNESSES

Dr. Jennifer Gholson, Family Practitioner, Summit, Mississippi...     4
Dr. Timothy Richardson, Independent Physician, Wichita Urology...    16
Ms. Chris Kean, COO, The San Antonio Orthopaedic Group...........    29
Dr. Seemal Desai, Founder, Innovative Dermatology................    38
Dr. Ashish Jha, Dean, Brown School of Public Health..............    48

                    MEMBER QUESTIONS FOR THE RECORD

Member Questions for the Record and Responses from Dr. Jennifer 
  Gholson, Family Practitioner, Summit, Mississippi..............   104
Member Questions for the Record and Responses from Dr. Timothy 
  Richardson, Independent Physician, Wichita Urology.............   107
Member Questions for the Record and Responses from Ms. Chris 
  Kean, COO, The San Antonio Orthopaedic Group...................   110
Member Questions for the Record and Responses from Dr. Seemal 
  Desai, Founder, Innovative Dermatology.........................   117

                   PUBLIC SUBMISSIONS FOR THE RECORD

Public Submissions...............................................   120

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                   THE COLLAPSE OF PRIVATE PRACTICE:
                        EXAMINING THE CHALLENGES
                      FACING INDEPENDENT MEDICINE

                              ----------                              


                         THURSDAY, MAY 23, 2024

                  House of Representatives,
                            Subcommittee on Health,
                               Committee on Ways and Means,
                                                    Washington, DC.
    The subcommittee met, pursuant to call, at 9:02 a.m. in 
Room 1100 Longworth House Office Building, Hon. Vern Buchanan 
[chairman of the subcommittee] presiding.
    Chairman BUCHANAN. Good morning. I want to thank our 
witnesses for being here today to discuss the crucial issues 
before us, the collapse of the private practice and the impact 
it is having on patients, as well.
    Americans across the country are hurt by skyrocketing 
inflation from the past four years. I am a former business 
owner, and I know firsthand how inflation harms small 
businesses trying to benefit their communities. Physicians are 
no different. Nearly 90 percent of the medical groups reported 
increased operating costs last year, according to the Medical 
Group Management Association. Physicians' costs increased by 
over 63 percent from 2013 to 2022, making it harder to run a 
business, let alone their own practice.
    During the same timeframe, Medicare's formula for 
calculating physician payments has increased by only 1.7 
percent. In fact, the--adjusted for inflation, the practice 
cost--Medicare physicians' pay rate plummeted 29 percent over 
the past 2 decades, with large changes year over year. So how 
can we get doctors to afford to stay in private practice when 
their costs are skyrocketing, their reimbursement rates 
continue to get cut?
    Many times, physicians are forced to sell their practice or 
consolidate, and with a larger system stay afloat. Let me be 
clear. Whether or not to sell a practice should be the choice 
of the physician based on what works best for them, their 
family, their practice, and their patients. They should not be 
forced into a practice consolidation.
    And I will just tell you myself, as a businessperson for 30 
years before I got here, I started, my wife and I, a small 
business. It was the American dream. We created 5,000 jobs from 
nothing as a couple of blue-collar kids. So a lot of times that 
leads to other opportunities. I am not saying that is good or 
bad or indifferent, but that is just my story. But there is 
other stories like that. So when I hear people are getting 
crunched in terms of whether they can even stay in practice, I 
don't like hearing that. But I will talk more about that today.
    Further, I am concerned that our--being transformed from 
entrepreneurs into employees. According to American Medical 
Association, the AMA, between 2012 and 2022 the share of 
physicians working in private practice fell by 13 percent 
compared to 3 decades ago, where there were--there are now 30 
percent fewer physicians in private practice. A thriving health 
care ecosystem should be included in a balance of large health 
systems and small, local, mom-and-pop practices.
    Back in the day, it was much easier and less expensive for 
young doctors coming out of medical school to start a practice 
in their hometown. Now, when I talk to young doctors coming out 
of medical school, many of them tell me it is too expensive of 
an endeavor, and they would rather work for a larger system, 
where they can collect a steady paycheck and not worry about 
the increasing administrative burdens associated with running a 
practice.
    Another issue I continue to hear from our docs is the 
growing rate of frivolous lawsuits against medical--the medical 
community. AMA analysts show that in 2019 medical liability 
premiums increased by 27 percent, almost double the rate from 
2018. Between 2020 and roughly 2022, 30 percent of premiums 
increase year to year. I am extremely worried about the 
pressure the trial bar is putting on physicians, at least in my 
state. I can talk about that, and then I hope that we can talk 
about what it costs, defensive medicine, and many of the 
doctors that are surgeons, maybe they are 60, they are leaving 
their practices early because they don't want to take the 
potential risk.
    Chairman BUCHANAN. With that I look forward to the 
discussion today. Now I recognize the Ranking Member Doggett 
for his opening remarks. Thank you.
    Mr. DOGGETT. Well, thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. This 
is an important set of issues that affects our health care 
providers, and it affects the quality of health care.
    I come at it from the experience of having a father who was 
in solo practice as a dentist for about 35 years. I handled the 
yard work and the cleanup around there, but I still meet a few 
people who were children when he practiced who valued that 
personalized care and remind me of it.
    Today's health care system is so much different. I don't 
think in any part of health care that kind of experience could 
occur. There are so many barriers to entry and getting a 
practice started and then maintaining it and so, we find today 
over 70 percent of physicians who are employed by a health care 
system or a corporate entity. This consolidation is creating 
greater obstacles for the few remaining independent 
practitioners who are struggling to compete, and has 
significant implications for taxpayers and patients.
    There are so many challenges. Your testimony, from 
reviewing it, deals with a number of them that our physicians 
are facing. And while I agree that physicians are sometimes 
over-regulated, the regulator that seems to be interfering the 
most for many comes in the form of private Medicare Advantage 
plans.
    MA plans continue to interfere with the doctor-patient 
relationship through burdensome prior authorization 
requirements, step therapy, and other management tools. 
Intended to reduce unnecessary health care utilization, these 
tools often lead to delays and denials of urgent medical care. 
One study found that 82 percent of denials that were appealed 
were ultimately overturned and found to be necessary and 
appropriate care. But a small, independent practice that is 
struggling to get a prior authorization request approved often 
can't afford to go forward with the appeal.
    For the care that is delivered, many physicians face 
inadequate payment, and I know you will be discussing that. 
Medicaid reimbursement in my home state of Texas is pitiful. We 
all know well that the Medicare physician fee schedule is a 
source of stress that we hear about each year. We are hearing 
about it from health care practitioners across the country.
    Private MA plans, however, frequently provide lower 
payments than traditional Medicare, which is difficult to 
believe. At the same time, in an upside-down system, Medicare 
Advantage is being dramatically overpaid, $84 billion in wasted 
taxpayer dollars this year alone. Yet, insurers are not 
required to reimburse doctors at least the traditional Medicare 
rates. With Medicare Advantage now providing coverage for over 
half of Medicare beneficiaries, physicians are being squeezed 
further.
    As recommended by the independent Medicare Payment Advisory 
Commission, MedPAC--sometimes the source of great concern and 
criticism by health care practitioners--but on this issue they 
say that approval of an inflation update is very important. We 
must find an acceptable way to pay for that update. But I think 
that an inflation update alone, though that is a priority of 
physicians now, is not a panacea. That schedule has become 
largely irrelevant if over half of the people covered by 
Medicare are being handled through private Medicare Advantage 
plans that distort the payment system.
    We need to strike a balance to protect the long-term 
solvency of Medicare, and hold these MA plans accountable for 
appropriately reimbursing providers. Payment tweaks alone will 
not address what is already a broken market.
    Due to a lack of antitrust enforcement, nearly 80 percent 
of metropolitan areas have highly concentrated physician 
markets. Independent physicians are struggling to compete, as 
they not only face a competing practice being taken over by 
private equity, but the same forces leading to vertical 
consolidation that use their immense resources to buy a 
hospital system and physician practices forcing the few 
remaining independent providers out of network.
    For many independent practices, private equity can appear 
to be a savior. For physicians struggling to compete with a 
large health care group, it is easy to understand the allure of 
these PE buyouts and quick cash infusion. Private equity may 
help some of these practices, but too often any benefit is 
solely to the senior physicians who may be about to retire. In 
my hometown of Austin, I have seen the aftermath of these 
buyouts. Junior associates, nursing staff, administrative 
support teams are fired. Prices increase and doctors are 
pressured to prioritize profits over patients. Practices either 
go bankrupt or are bundled until we have only one physician 
group covering a particular specialty.
    I look forward to your testimony and our discussion on the 
many anti-competitive behaviors that have gone unrestrained for 
too long, and how best we can advance a fair, just, and 
affordable health care system that supports our health care 
practitioners and their patients.
    Mr. DOGGETT. Thank you so much, Mr. Chairman.
    Chairman BUCHANAN. Thank you. I am really excited. We have 
got great witnesses today, you guys that are actually in the 
trenches. Many of us up here haven't been where you have been, 
and you are dealing with the reality, especially in the last 10 
years or so.
    So the witnesses: Dr. Jennifer Gholson out of Mississippi; 
Dr. Tim Richardson, a private physician out of Wichita, Kansas; 
Chris Kean, a private--she is a chief operating officer, so 
that will be interesting, San Antonio, Texas--Dr. Desai from 
north Dallas; and Dr. Jha from--with Brown University.
    So Doctor, why don't we start with you, Dr. Gholson?
    We will move this way. Five minutes each.

STATEMENT OF JENNIFER GHOLSON, MD, FAMILY PRACTITIONER, SUMMIT, 
                          MISSISSIPPI

    Dr. GHOLSON. Chairman Buchanan, Ranking Member Doggett, and 
distinguished members of the subcommittee, thank you for the 
opportunity to testify today. My name is Jennifer Gholson, and 
I am a family physician from Summit, Mississippi. I am honored 
to be here today representing the more than 130,000 physicians 
and student members of the American Academy of Family 
Physicians. My remarks today are made in my capacity as a AAFP 
representative, and do not reflect the opinions of my employer 
or any other organizations with which I am affiliated.
    As a former solo practice owner, I applaud the committee 
for holding today's hearing. It was not long ago that the 
majority of primary care was delivered by physicians in solo or 
independent practice who were uniquely connected to the 
community they served. However, over the last few decades, we 
have propped up a health care system with misaligned incentives 
that rewards consolidation and under-invest in primary care. 
Every system is perfectly designed to achieve the results it 
gets, and our current system is designed to ensure the death of 
independent medicine.
    I have practiced primary care for more than 20 years. In 
2011 I opened my own brick-and-mortar family medicine practice 
in my rural community which had lacked any primary care 
practices previously. To say running my own practice was hard 
would be an understatement, but it was also rewarding. Plans 
provided no transparency on their contracted rates, meaning I 
didn't know what I would be paid until I had already signed on 
the dotted line. Many plans also closed their networks 
completely and would not contract with me initially.
    I was an early adopter of value-based payment through 
participation in an ACO, where we achieved share savings while 
providing quality care to patients. I am grateful that I had 
the opportunity to participate in an ACO. There was at least 
one year when the shared savings payment helped me keep my 
practice doors open.
    When the pandemic hit, and Mississippi required us to stop 
seeing patients in person, we were able to pivot to providing 
care via telehealth the very next day. I was able to cultivate 
meaningful, trusted relationships with my patients, many of 
whom became like family, while maintaining my own clinical 
autonomy and decision-making authority.
    Around 2021, the tide started to change. Prior 
authorizations were increasing while payments were shrinking. 
Physician practices already get paid two to three times less 
for services than hospitals, who are able to charge facility 
fees.
    Primary care is at its best when it is delivered by a 
physician-led team. However, it was hard for my practice and 
others to compete with hospitals for the same staff. They can 
offer signing bonuses, higher base salaries, an array of 
technology that practices often can't.
    Eventually, the draw of hospital employment became too 
alluring for my staff. I had the privilege of working with an 
incredible nurse for my--almost my entire career. She ended up 
leaving because, as she put it, primary care had become too 
hard, and she couldn't do it anymore. She went to work for a 
hospital-employed pulmonologist. We both cried when she left. 
Soon after, both MPs on my team decided to leave, as well. One 
went to a hospital-owned practice closer to her home, and the 
other to a subcontractor for managed care companies that offer 
more flexibility.
    After they left, I tried to make things work, but the hits 
kept coming and burnout seemed inevitable. For example, health 
plans started clawing back money that they had already paid me 
because of minor billing mistakes, instead of allowing me to 
resubmit claims. Eventually, for myself and for my patients, I 
had to reevaluate whether keeping my practice doors open was 
the right choice. I knew it would take at least six months to 
try and replace my staff, and the administrative burden I faced 
further eroded the time I was able to spend on patient care.
    In the decades since I opened my practice, a pharmacy, an 
urgent care, and a physical therapist had also opened in my 
small town. The presence of my practice has made a positive 
economic impact on the community and, most importantly, a 
positive personal impact on my patients.
    I decided to close my practice in the summer of 2022. While 
this is my story, it is not unique. It is the story of many 
other family physicians who have been forced into a false 
choice of either selling their practice, often for pennies, or 
closing their doors entirely.
    Thankfully, Congress can advance policies that will better 
support the success of practices of all sizes and ownership 
types. These include improving payment for primary care, 
addressing misaligned incentives such as facility fees that 
encourage consolidation, and minimizing the administrative 
burden that independent practices face.
    Thank you again for the opportunity to testify and share my 
story. I look forward to answering your questions.
    [The statement of Dr. Gholson follows:]
    GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
    
    Chairman BUCHANAN. Thanks, Doctor.
    Dr. Richardson.

  STATEMENT OF TIMOTHY RICHARDSON, MD, INDEPENDENT PHYSICIAN, 
                        WICHITA UROLOGY

    Dr. RICHARDSON. Chairman Buchanan and Ranking Member 
Doggett, I am Dr. Timothy Richardson, a urologist and partner 
in Wichita Urology, an independent physician practice in 
Wichita, Kansas. I also serve as a board member of the Large 
Urology Group Practice Association.
    My practice is a single specialty group of 12 doctors that 
serve over 1.1 million lives in a geographic area covering two-
thirds of the State of Kansas. We have 13 clinic locations 
throughout the state that makes it possible for the rural 
patients to receive critical cancer care and advanced 
urological treatments where they live.
    We greatly appreciate the Ways and Means Committee interest 
in examining the challenges facing independent physician 
practices.
    While Wichita Urology is no stranger to the mounting 
pressures independent practices face, we are fortunate to have 
remained independent. Unfortunately, this is not the case for 
many of the other practices across the country, despite a 
commitment to their patients and their communities.
    In response to the double whammy of increasing regulatory 
and administrative burdens alongside declining reimbursement, 
independent physicians have responded by working harder and 
more, leading to burnout and early retirement, thereby 
compounding the shortages and the onus on those who remain in 
the practice. In fact, yesterday I personally performed 10 
surgical procedures and saw 24 clinic patients before racing to 
catch a 3:00 p.m. flight to be with you here today.
    I am reminded of what occurred to a colleague's practice in 
Shreveport, Louisiana, which peaked at 20 urologists but over 
time dwindled down to 8 as hospitals recruited their doctors, 
who could be relieved essentially of 100 percent of their 
administrative, practice management, and regulatory burdens 
overnight, alongside an RVU pay schedule that substantially 
reduced their patient care burdens.
    In the face of seemingly endless, expanding workload in 
private practice, hospitals can offer higher starting salaries 
on the promise of a work-life balance that limits working 
hours. Pay differentials, subsidized by site-of-service 
disparities, made it impossible for them to compete for the 
nursing staff. That practice eventually collapsed, and the 
patient access plummeted as more physicians left the practice 
and the hospital system that acquired the group closed all of 
the outlying offices northern--in the northern part of the 
state, where there had formerly been 11 clinic sites.
    Just as important, patients lost a one-stop-shop of 
coordinated and personalized care with physician-patient 
relationships that had been built over the decades with 
patients and their families.
    This is not an isolated incident, but a nationwide trend. 
Hospital-employed physicians increased by more than 70 percent 
between 2012 and 2018, and another 5.1 percent between 2022 and 
2023. More than half of the physicians are now employed by 
hospitals.
    It is not hard to understand why. Hospitals have focused on 
acquiring physician practices because that strategy 
simultaneously quashes competition in the local market and 
captures downstream revenue from ancillary services such as 
radiation therapy, imaging, and physician-administered drugs, 
often times purchased at 340B prices.
    The revenue a physician generates for a hospital employer 
far surpasses the cost of the employed physician's salary. For 
example, a recent Merritt survey found that urologists generate 
$2.1 million while receiving an average salary of 386,000. 
Similar returns on investments exist for other specialists.
    A major factor contributing to provider consolidation is 
the inability of private practices to remain financially 
viable. Medicare reimbursement payment updates do not come 
close to matching the rising practice costs. More recently, 
physicians have taken payment cuts. Physicians only received a 
nominal 10 percent increase over the last two decades, while 
the practice cost inflation rose 47 percent. That is simply not 
sustainable.
    Meanwhile, hospitals have received compounding payment 
updates based on their input cost, amounting to 70 percent over 
the last two decades, and enjoy a substantial site-of-service 
payment advantage for the identical services. As an example, 
Medicare pays hospitals more than twice the amount a physician 
receives for a cystoscopy with lithotripsy stent procedure at 
an ambulatory surgery center, even though this requires 
essentially the same staff, infrastructure, time, and technical 
training to perform. Similarly, hospitals receive more than 
two-and-a-half times more than physicians to infuse identical 
part B drugs.
    Studies have shown that Medicare could save over $150 
billion by equalizing these payment disparities. Yet simply 
cutting the hospitals does not assist physician practices. We 
would suggest an approach that modestly reduces the HOPD 
payments and modestly increases physician payments to protect 
the patient access.
    Just as troubling as the reimbursement challenges is the 
regulatory burden physicians confront, and the lack of 
alternative payment models available to most doctors. Only 17 
percent of participating providers received an APM incentive 
payment in 2023. CMS failed to implement or even test any of 
the 17 physician-focused payment models that were recommended 
by PTAC.
    MIPS has been an even bigger disappointment, and only 
served to burden physicians with onerous, expensive, and 
largely meaningless reporting requirements. The MIPS reporting 
program costs nearly $13,000 and takes more than 200 hours per 
physician per year. That is time that could be spent with 
patients.
    Just as troubling, high performers were not properly 
compensated because the MIPS's zero-sum game provides bonuses 
only to the degree other physicians are penalized, and less 
than 0.3 percent were penalized. We agree with MedPAC's 
statement: MIPS is, as presently designed, is unlikely to 
succeed in helping beneficiaries choose clinicians, helping 
clinicians change practice patterns to improve value, or 
helping the Medicare program reward clinicians based on value. 
MIPS should be terminated.
    The Stark Law also remains an impediment to value-based 
care delivery. It must be modernized to reflect how care is 
delivered today, not three decades ago, when it was first 
conceived. The physician entrepreneur should be encouraged, not 
vilified.
    I would like to thank the committee for focusing on 
promoting and protecting independent practices and patients we 
serve. We look forward to working with you to reform these 
programs to make them more efficient and improve patient 
outcomes.
    [The statement of Dr. Richardson follows:]
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    Chairman BUCHANAN. Thank you. I do want to note our next 
witness. She is the chief operating officer of a practice.
    So you are responsible for paying the bills, so you have 
got probably a unique insight. You know, everybody else is a 
doctor, but you are actually up there having to pay the bills 
and deal with that reality. Go ahead. Five minutes.

 STATEMENT OF CHRISTINE KEAN, COO, THE SAN ANTONIO ORTHOPAEDIC 
                             GROUP

    Ms. KEAN. Thank you, Chairman Buchanan and Ranking Member 
Doggett, for allowing me the opportunity to provide boots-on-
the-ground testimony about what it is like to be an independent 
medical practice in health care today. My name is Christine 
Kean. I am testifying on behalf of myself, as chief operating 
officer of TSAOG Orthopedics and Spine, and all 41 physicians 
of our group.
    We are a fiercely independent, 100 percent physician-owned 
group taking care of patients in the greater San Antonio region 
for over 75 years. I have been fortunate to have worked 
alongside the dedicated physicians and health care 
professionals of TSAOG for the past 23 years. The group is a 
fully integrated, private health care entity consisting of non-
operative physicians, orthopedic surgeons, and 
anesthesiologists. Our physicians and the ones that came before 
them built this group to help patients navigate an often 
confusing health care environment by providing as much 
physician-directed care as possible under a seamless umbrella.
    Our patients are able to obtain X-rays or more advanced 
imaging such as MRI or CT; receive their physical or hand 
therapy in person, or even virtually; see us after hours, 
during the week, and on Saturdays in our urgent care solution, 
OrthoNow; be seen for preventive bone health care. And if they 
require surgical intervention, we have two outpatient 
ambulatory surgery centers that provide basic and complex 
orthopedic surgeries to include spine and joint replacements. 
If inpatient hospital care is required, this will also be 
directed and led by our physicians at one of three community-
based hospitals in the region. Think of us as a small ecosystem 
for orthopedic care in San Antonio.
    Creating an entity like this is rare. It is extremely 
challenging to do, and even more difficult to maintain. It 
requires our physicians to be fully focused on all aspects of 
the patient treatment plan, to include their own, as the 
physician, not me, as an administrator, is solely responsible 
for the liability of every patient they care for.
    Meanwhile, they, alongside our administrative team, are 
also responsible for the nearly 600 professional team members 
they employ to make right business decisions taking into 
consideration the complex health care regulatory environment we 
live in today, as doing so ensures a future will exist for them 
and our patients for generations to come under this model.
    I am here today to help you understand the challenges of 
maintaining this environment, and why so many private practices 
across the country are collapsing. There are three main 
challenges facing independent medicine in our market across the 
country.
    Number one--and I think you know what I am going to say--
the source of revenue to maintain this environment is fixed, 
decreasing, and largely not in our control. A typical Medicare 
patient 3 years ago reimbursed the practice $89.05. Today it 
reimburses $2.59 less, and we face more cuts next year. This 
must change. No entity can stay in business with reductions 
like this, especially when the inflation rate over those 3 
years was 16 percent. Physicians can no longer subsidize the 
cost of care for the Federal Government, nor should they be 
required to do so.
    Number two, expenses have increased dramatically. And I 
will give you one example, but there are many more: 3 years ago 
an entry-level certified medical assistant hourly rate was 
$13.50 an hour; today it is 16.50. This represents an annual 
increase of over $200,000 to our organization for just one 
position needed to care for patients. While giving pay 
increases is something we are very proud to do and good for our 
team members, increasing expenses without the ability to 
increase our fee for services puts us at a disadvantage to 
other non-health care employers in the market.
    And number three, relationship with insurance carriers and 
others has become at times hostile and not conducive to 
maintaining a healthy balance required for the delivery of 
health care today. Simply put, if any health care relationship 
remains unbalanced, as it is in many of our communities, it 
will severely limit patient choices, drive up costs, and 
undermine the integrity of patient care. Patients may even lose 
their ability to see their doctor.
    I noted earlier that we have been in practice for over 75 
years, longer than most insurance carriers have been in 
existence. Believe it or not, we didn't always have health 
insurance, but we did have doctors. As an independent physician 
group we have taken pride in caring for our neighbors and 
friends, not allowing for shortcuts in care, and making sure 
that a return on investment is not the determining factor in 
physicians' decision-making. And the results bear this out, as 
we are consistently offering innovative, cost-effective 
solutions while being recognized for the best care in the 
region, and we have the patient outcomes to prove this.
    Thank you for providing this forum to learn, and for 
inviting me to speak to you directly. I am very happy to take 
your questions. Thank you.
    [The statement of Ms. Kean follows:]
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    Chairman BUCHANAN. Thank you.
    Dr. Desai.

 STATEMENT OF SEEMAL DESAI, MD, FOUNDER, INNOVATIVE DERMATOLOGY

    Dr. DESAI. Chairman Buchanan, Ranking Member Doggett, and 
members of the subcommittee, my name is Dr. Seemal R. Desai. I 
am the president of the American Academy of Dermatology 
Association that represents more than 17,000 physicians 
nationwide, and I am the founder of Innovative Dermatology, a 
private practice with 2 locations in Dallas.
    I see firsthand the lifesaving work that dermatologists 
provide for patients, which is especially timely today, during 
National Skin Cancer Awareness Month, when we are raising 
awareness of statistics such as the fact that one person dies 
every hour from melanoma.
    I have seen how skin disease can devastate a family. At a 
young age my brother was diagnosed with vitiligo, a devastating 
skin disease that causes one to lose their own skin color, 
resulting in large white patches all over the body, a disease 
which can feel like a death sentence, especially for patients 
with skin of color, often leaving patients feeling anxious, 
depressed, and withdrawn. At the time of my brother's 
diagnosis, my family would make a 450-mile journey from our 
home in Atlanta to see the only vitiligo specialist in this 
country. I saw how critical it was to be able to have access to 
a high-quality specialist, particularly for a disease which 
such profound psychological impact. And witnessing my family's 
patient experience, along with watching my recently-departed 
late father, a dentist, inspired me to go into medicine.
    Now, I am proud that I achieved my dream of opening my own 
private practice in 2011. The threats facing small practices 
have grown immensely over the last decade, and the end is 
nowhere in sight. I started my career with great optimism, but 
the continual state of medicine in this country has continually 
directly affected my practice. As president of the Academy, 
this makes me incredibly concerned about the physicians I 
represent and, most importantly, the patients we treat.
    The greatest challenge facing practices and patients is the 
failure of the Medicare physician fee schedule to keep up with 
inflation, especially when physicians are the only Medicare 
providers that do not receive any inflationary updates. Since 
2001 the cost of operating a medical practice has increased 
almost 50 percent--to be precise, 47 percent. And when adjusted 
for inflation, Medicare physician reimbursement rates declined 
by 30 percent from 2001 to 2024. What business can survive 
under these circumstances?
    This payment structure disproportionately threatens the 
viability of all medical practices, as well as those serving 
rural, low-income, and underserved communities. This issue is 
further exacerbated by rising costs and inflation, ultimately 
leading to less health care options for patients.
    Congress must adopt a permanent Medicare payment update 
that fully acknowledges the inflationary growth of health care 
costs while working towards long-term reform. The Academy urges 
Congress to establish a positive annual inflation adjustment, 
and to increase the budget neutrality threshold by passing H.R. 
2474 and 6371.
    Since I began practicing, I have increasingly had to grow 
my patient volume to keep up with demand while simultaneously 
juggling skyrocketing overhead costs. In 2014 I brought on 
another board-certified dermatologist to reduce wait times and 
increase critical access for patients suffering from deadly 
skin cancers like melanoma and a whole host of other skin 
conditions. Keeping up with those increasing overhead expenses 
and paying salaries of another physician, a part-time physician 
assistant, and multiple medical assistants was costly and 
became unsustainable.
    To continue serving my patients in the best way, I made a 
decision to combine part of my practice with a larger group to 
help manage human resource burdens, the vicious cycle of 
billing and insurance issues, and to help make sure my clinic 
would continue to function, and frankly, because, as a solo 
doctor, I was burning out. Fortunately, I maintain full 
clinical autonomy in a patient-centric model, providing timely 
and essential access to care.
    Another challenge that I encounter multiple times every day 
when I see patients is the incredible amount of resources we 
spend on prior authorizations, on medications that will keep 
patients out of the hospital. This includes staffing a 
dedicated, full-time employee simply to handle prior 
authorizations.
    In closing, on behalf of our members and the patients I 
represent as the president of the American Academy of 
Dermatology Association, thank you for giving me the honor to 
testify in front of you today. We stand ready to help the 
committee as you confront the challenges facing practices and 
health care in this country, and I look forward to your 
questions.
    [The statement of Dr. Desai follows:]
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    Chairman BUCHANAN. Thank you.
    Dr. Jha.

   STATEMENT OF ASHISH JHA, MD, DEAN, BROWN SCHOOL OF PUBLIC 
                             HEALTH

    Dr. JHA. Good morning, Chairman Buchanan, Ranking Member 
Doggett, and members of the subcommittee. It really is an honor 
to be here.
    I have practiced medicine for over 20 years, and in that 
time I have seen American medicine change. I have also seen so 
many colleagues and friends leave private independent practice.
    Now, when I was a kid growing up in India, I would follow 
my uncle, who was a physician, who made house calls. He mostly 
made house calls. He got paid whatever the patient gave him. 
Sometimes he didn't get paid at all. But he made an enormous 
difference in people's lives, and inspired me to become a 
doctor. During those years a doctor could keep in his or her 
head everything they needed to know to care for people. Today a 
primary care physician caring for a complex, sick population 
must coordinate care across dozens of specialists, manage a 
dizzying array of medicines, tests, and procedures.
    Providing care in an independent, small practice has gotten 
harder, to be sure. But on top of that, there is an array of 
forces driving the demise of independent practices.
    Let's start with hospitals and health systems. They have 
been on a buying spree. Some of these purchases likely have 
been helpful, maybe closely aligning hospitals and physicians 
to provide high-quality care, but many have not. We have all 
seen stories about how a hospital buys a practice. Nothing 
changes, but because it is now billed as delivered in a 
hospital-based location, the cost to the patient goes up due to 
facility fees. The access isn't any better, the quality isn't 
any better, but these fees make private practices an 
acquisition target, and cost Medicare and consumers real money.
    Large corporations have gotten into this game, the most 
well-known of which is Optum, a part of the UnitedHealth Group. 
Optum now owns or manages 1 in 10 practicing physicians in 
America.
    And then there is Medicare Advantage. The commercial 
takeover of Medicare has made life much more complicated for 
that independent physician. While payments that doctors receive 
under MA usually don't match what they receive under regular 
commercial contracts, they face all the same hurdles and then 
some. The most obvious example you have heard about today is 
prior authorization. Most MA plans require prior authorization. 
Every MA plan has its own set of rules, and prior authorization 
makes doctors' lives harder and hampers their ability to 
provide the care they think their patients need.
    Further, initial denials of care authorization have grown 
substantially in recent years.
    And finally, last but certainly not least, there is private 
equity. Recently a colleague of mine in Florida sold his small 
cardiology practice to a private equity firm. Although he was 
initially reluctant to sell that practice he had run for over 
20 years, he was persuaded by what seemed like a great price. 
Over time he got pressured to change his documentation so they 
could bill more aggressively, and eventually he found himself 
changing the way he practiced medicine. And last, but not 
least, he heard from some of his longstanding patients that his 
practice had stopped taking their insurance, meaning he could 
no longer take care of them.
    My colleague is not alone. PE firms are spending hundreds 
of billions of dollars buying up physicians, practices, 
hospitals, and nursing homes across America. These acquisitions 
usually increase costs. They can reduce access. They can even 
harm patient safety.
    So thankfully, there is action, action we can take, and you 
have heard about many of these today.
    First, I think congressional action on site-neutral 
payments is essential. It just makes no sense to pay more for 
the same care in the same location, just because the ownership 
of that practice has changed.
    I believe transparency around ownership is essential, so we 
know who is buying up practices and what they are doing with 
those practices.
    And vigorous enforcement of our existing antitrust laws is 
critical to ensure that we reduce market consolidation.
    And finally--and you have heard this from my colleagues 
today--it really is time to address the fact that there is no 
inflation adjustment with the physician fee schedule. That just 
makes no sense. Physician pay should absolutely keep up with 
inflation, and we have got to make that a real priority.
    My belief is, if we do all of these things, we can have a 
dynamic health care system where independent practices can 
thrive and flourish, and patients can have more choices, lower 
costs, and better care.
    Thank you very much, and I look forward to your questions.
    [The statement of Dr. Jha follows:]
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    Chairman BUCHANAN. I thank all of you. We are going to move 
into the questioning session part of it.
    But if you can be somewhat concise, I know there is--these 
are not simple, but Dr. Gholson, let me ask you. You are 
talking about your practice, 20 years. You had to unfortunately 
close the business. If you look back, what--could you have done 
anything different?
    Or a lot of the rural communities that you are in, that you 
service, the numbers don't add up, especially with--you know, 
whether--you are getting cut many times every year over the 
years. What are your thoughts on that?
    Dr. GHOLSON. In my community one of the biggest barriers I 
believe I had was that the local hospital considered me as 
competition, instead of a community partner, and so they 
continued to expand around me.
    And so there were often times where, say, my patients would 
go to their emergency room, and be admitted, and they would not 
list me as the primary care physician because I wasn't employed 
by the hospital. And then, when the hospital would discharge 
that patient, instead of sending them back to me as their 
primary care physician, they would send them back to one of 
their hospital-employed physicians, which was disrupting the 
care. That was a major issue for me, because managing a 
transition from a hospital to your practice helps keep people 
out of the hospital.
    It was also very difficult to contract with insurers 
because I am--it is just me. I am the CEO, the CFO, the COO. I 
mean, I do all of that. And so, you know, often they would say, 
``We don't know if we need you in our network,'' and I am like, 
I am the only doctor in this town. How could you not need me? 
[Laughter.]
    Dr. GHOLSON. So I think that was--those were probably the 
two biggest challenges, is not being able to be competitive 
with contracting.
    I mean, what we get paid for primary care, it is just--it 
is prices, the price of goods increases.
    Chairman BUCHANAN. Thank you. I have got to move along----
    Dr. GHOLSON. Sure.
    Chairman BUCHANAN [continuing]. Because I want every--Dr. 
Richardson, you talked about administrative burden has gotten a 
lot worse. Can you better--a little bit more--articulate that 
aspect?
    Dr. RICHARDSON. Sure. Most of it--well, I shouldn't say 
most of it. A lot of it revolves around MIPS. I have three 
staff that are constantly reporting following up--towards the 
end of the year I had a conversation with our director of 
operations and said, ``How much time do you spend reporting and 
dealing with MIPS?''
    She said, ``Towards the last two months of the year, it is 
at least half of my day. Our head IT, it is at least half of 
his day. Our head nurse managers, at least half of her day, and 
throughout the year it is a never-ending game.''
    Sure, the costs of practice are going up every year, so you 
have to keep adding in administration for that, decreasing 
reimbursement. So we are constantly pressured to try to add new 
service lines of treatment for the patients to try to maintain 
revenue. But at the end of the day, it is just the increased 
cost, the increased need to try to employ more staff, and the 
competition to try to employ those staff with competing 
hospitals in town that can pay those staff more.
    But MIPS, especially towards the end of the year, is a huge 
burden for my office staff.
    Chairman BUCHANAN. Ms. Kean, what is your--you got a unique 
perspective. You know, like she said, everybody is the CEO, and 
the CEO of their own practice. But what is your sense that is 
the biggest challenge, the top one or two challenges that you 
face every day or every week in your practice or your business?
    Ms. KEAN. Yes. I think, you know, aside from the payment 
issues, it--certainly, prior authorization has been just an 
absolute disaster. And it really isn't--it doesn't do anything 
to improve care. It does absolutely nothing to improve care. 
But it does allow insurance carriers to deny care. And if they 
don't deny it on the first prior auth attempt, you know, 
doctors will get on the phone, spend all kinds of time with the 
insurance carriers getting it approved.
    We examined over 30,000 orders in our practice in 1 year. 
We have a research entity that helps us do that. And more 
than--less than one percent of the authorizations that we 
requested ever fully got denied, and I think that that is just 
because the patient abandoned the care. So if they are 
approving it 100 percent of the time, why are they doing it? It 
is because it is a billing game. Because if you don't have the 
prior auth on the bill, which you will, then they can deny the 
care later that you already performed.
    And so I think prior authorization is a really big thing 
that we have tried to address in Texas. We do have a gold card 
bill there, which we are very proud to support. It is a good 
start, but we need help with that. It only protects the fully-
funded plans.
    Chairman BUCHANAN. Okay. Let me ask both of you about 
private equity. You touched on it. Here is the thing--I see it. 
Everybody is getting paid less, but yet private equities--I 
have been in, you know, through the 1980s, with the junk bond 
deals, and leverage, and all the other stuff, they are usually 
looking to make 20 to 25 percent.
    So one side you have got, you know, where people aren't 
getting paid enough, but yet they are buying these practices, 
and it is working for them. And I am sure in five to seven 
years they are looking to get that kind of return. And I have 
heard a lot of horror stories on some of it, where doctors 
thought it was one thing and it ends up being another, they got 
out of it.
    But both of you, I would just like to have you quickly 
weigh in on that issue of private equity.
    Dr. DESAI. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman, for the 
question.
    I think one of the things that I use as a litmus test when 
looking at patient care models, be that solo private practice, 
be that a group, be that a hospital system, multi-specialty, 
private equity, invested, I think the important north star that 
we have to consider is where patient care lands between the 
sanctity of the physician and the patient. And my philosophy 
and the Academy's position is that we want to ensure the 
highest level of patient care when a patient sees a board-
certified dermatologist for their melanoma, to save their life 
from skin cancer, or a horrible inflammatory skin disease.
    I think we have to be very careful when evaluating models 
because it is not a one-size-fits-all approach, as you alluded 
to in your comments, Mr. Chairman. So I think the important 
message here is that we have to make sure we understand what is 
happening between the doctor and the patient in that exam room, 
and how is that patient accessing the treatment in the best 
way.
    Chairman BUCHANAN. Private equity, Doctor?
    Dr. JHA. Chairman Buchanan, so this is a really important 
issue. And it is, first of all, even hard to know how much 
private equity is in health care, because there is no real 
transparency. But they have figured out how to make a buck in 
the system.
    Their general strategies tend to be they buy up a lot of 
practices in a market, gain a lot of market power, and then go 
to the insurers and say, ``We now own all of these practices. 
What are you going to do? How do you run a network without 
us?'' And they jack up prices. Ultimately, guess who pays that? 
Consumers, employers. Guess who doesn't get to see any of that? 
The physician who is in those practices. So that is their 
number-one strategy for how they are doing it.
    They are doing a whole bunch of other things, changing the 
way they do billing. This colleague of mine I mentioned who 
sold his practice initially thinking, well, I can just practice 
medicine and not worry about the business, he found himself 
practicing medicine differently because of the pressure he was 
getting.
    So private equity is a real problem. I think we need to 
begin with transparency. We need to know what these guys--who 
they are, what is--what the investments are. We need to have 
vigorous antitrust enforcement so that you don't gain monopoly 
market power. And I think there is a series of other things we 
can do, but we have got to get on this.
    Chairman BUCHANAN. And let me just say, you know, kind of 
close to home for me, my nephew graduated as a doctor, a 
radiologist, wanted to take a job in Florida, interviewed, all 
that. And then he found out that they were selling out to a, 
you know, a private equity firm. So he decided to look other 
ways, and he went out of state to find another opportunity. He 
joins that firm, is with it now, and then within six months 
that equity firm bought that one out. So I know there is a lot 
of discussion about that, but I am just concerned about where 
all that is going, and the impact that has.
    And with that I will turn it over to Mr. Doggett.
    Mr. DOGGETT. Well, thank you very much. I would just 
continue on that subject.
    One study I have seen found that private equity-owned 
medical practices charge 20 percent more, on average, per 
insurance claim than independent practices, and that an 
estimated 80 percent of private equity-owned physician 
practices significantly increased prices just after the 
takeover. I think the estimates I have seen are that, over the 
last decade, private equity has invested more than $1 trillion 
in health care.
    You have given the example there in Florida, but overall--
similar studies have also shown a number of physicians exiting 
from the practice after the private equity takeover. Overall, 
is it fair to say that private equity's role, with reference to 
physician practices, is to increase prices to both insurers and 
to the Medicare system, and to decrease the quality of care?
    Dr. JHA. Yes, Ranking Member Doggett, that is a--it is a 
really important question. And here is where I think the 
evidence is.
    I think, first of all, you have cited the key studies on 
this. There is a way that private equity firms do this. They 
first make sure that people are billing kind of as aggressively 
as possible. Second, as I said, they start getting market 
power. And, you know, we all--I think all of us agree 
physicians need to be reimbursed more. That is not what private 
equity is doing. They are getting higher reimbursements, but 
they are pocketing that difference. Physicians are not better 
off.
    And so what we are seeing is, as you said, a lot of 
physicians who are just deciding they don't want to practice in 
that kind of environment anymore, and leaving those practices.
    And then there are studies like one that came out about six 
months ago that showed that, when private equity took over 
hospitals, over the next two years medical errors, adverse 
events went up. And if you say, well, what happened there? My 
best guess is, you know, that they probably cut back on 
staffing in that hospital. That is another way to save money. 
But we know staffing can make a real difference in terms of 
patient safety.
    So ultimately, what we need to do is we need to look at 
behavior. When there is bad behavior, we need to have clear 
policies and approaches to dealing with that bad behavior. I 
don't want to paint too broad a brush stroke. I am sure there 
are private equity acquisitions that have probably been fine. 
But overall, when you look at the overall system and see where 
people are going, it is causing increased costs for consumers 
and the taxpayer. Doctors are worse off. Patients are worse 
off.
    Mr. DOGGETT. Thank you very much.
    Now, Dr. Gholson, you really seem to be exhibit A for what 
is wrong with the system now. You heard Dr. Jha also reference 
the need for vigorous antitrust enforcement.
    I know one of the things that the FTC has recently done 
that sparked some controversy relates to these non-compete 
clauses that seem to have a big impact within the health care 
system. How with the FTC's recent action on that and other 
enforcement, which has been lax for years, what impact do you 
think that will have?
    Dr. GHOLSON. I think it will have a positive impact. At the 
heart of the issue is the relationship between a physician and 
their patient, and there should be nothing that comes in 
between that. And currently, with non-compete clauses, it does.
    For instance, when I was considering selling my practice, I 
considered going to work for the hospital, but I would have 
been under a non-compete. And due to the expanse of where they 
had practices and outlying hospitals, if I were to break that 
non-compete, I think I would be 80 miles away from where I 
live, and I would have had to uproot my family. So it just was 
not an option.
    One of the things that does concern me with the FTC ruling 
is that it doesn't include non-profits, and we do have 
hospitals that are--that would fall under that purview as a 
non-profit. So I would urge that that be considered, that non-
profits should come under that ruling, as well.
    Mr. DOGGETT. Thank you very much, and for your testimony, 
generally.
    Dr. Jha, let me also ask you about Medicare Advantage. I 
have seen estimates that we are paying about $1,500 per 
Medicare recipient more, per year out of the Medicare trust 
fund to MA plans, than on traditional Medicare. And yet these 
plans, some of them, won't pay the health care provider as much 
as traditional Medicare. Could you just comment about any 
recommendations you might have for what we can do about it?
    Dr. JHA. Yes. So Congressman Doggett, as you alluded to, 
Medicare Advantage has just taken off. It is now a majority of 
Medicare patients are in Medicare Advantage. This is really a 
phenomena of the last 10 years. If you ask the question why, it 
is because we are overpaying for Medicare and--Medicare 
Advantage. And that is not, again, translating into better care 
for patients or better reimbursement for physicians.
    There is a series of policy things--risk adjustment, how 
you do regional, benchmarking--a series of policy options that 
we have, but we have got to implement them. Just paying more to 
insurance companies when they are not generating more value for 
consumers, patients, or taxpayers doesn't make a lot of sense.
    Mr. DOGGETT. Thanks to all of you.
    Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    Chairman BUCHANAN. Mr. Smith.
    Mr. SMITH of Nebraska. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    Thank you to our panel, as well, sharing your perspective. 
Thank you for being on the front lines of health care, where I 
know it is challenging and it hasn't been getting any easier 
for various reasons.
    I am concerned that, instead of finding true reforms, we 
have just seen over the last few years we just shift around who 
gets paid, how much, and then there are more regulations, and 
then there are responses to that. And ultimately, patients 
aren't any better off with more government intrusion and 
involvement.
    But it is very interesting to hear, Dr. Gholson, your 
experience, your perspective, that you found the competition to 
be the local hospital, who wouldn't refer to you. Would that be 
accurate?
    Dr. GHOLSON. [Nonverbal response.]
    Mr. SMITH of Nebraska. And that perhaps the full choices to 
patients were not disclosed to the patient. That is--I am 
troubled by that, and especially in the broader picture of how 
we oftentimes hear about how referral, the referral process, 
should or should not be in other respects.
    But, you know, when we have these changes in ownership of 
practices, it is disruptive, obviously, as was touched on, that 
insurance plans may not be accepted anymore, and how disruptive 
that is, ultimately, to patients, and especially those in more 
rural areas. When I represent one of the most rural districts 
in America, this can be very disruptive. There aren't that many 
choices. Mere access is our goal sometimes, when in more urban 
areas it is--you know, there might be more choices among 
providers. But to take away even some of that very basic 
access, I think, is troubling.
    I will also point to the regulations and requirements that 
oftentimes originate here in Washington being a huge problem, 
and I think the latest is the new staffing mandate for nursing 
homes. So just in Nebraska--we are a pretty rural state--just 
in Nebraska, the Biden Administration expects us to come up 
with 450 new nursing FTEs. Where will they come from? Will they 
come from the hospitals and the practices that you mention--
which, I am guessing, you might already face a shortage in 
their support staff or, you know, nursing providers. I find 
this unconscionable, that they would even think of this. And we 
have nursing homes in rural America already struggling without 
the new mandates. And I think we all know what the mandates are 
really about, but it is very unfortunate that these poorly 
thought-out policies tend to be happening so much these days.
    Dr. Gholson, though, could you perhaps elaborate more on, 
you know, the recommendations or insights that you think we 
should pursue to address the workforce shortages, whether it is 
MDs, whether it is other providers that--you know, that full 
spectrum there, what can we do to bring some relief to the 
shortages?
    Dr. GHOLSON. So in Mississippi one of the things we have 
done is increased the number of residencies, family medicine 
residencies in Mississippi, with the belief that where people 
train they will stay. And so I would encourage--more GME 
funding would be one thing that you could do to help increase 
rural physicians.
    Mr. SMITH of Nebraska. What did they do in Mississippi to 
increase those slots?
    Dr. GHOLSON. So we established the Office of Mississippi 
Physician Workforce, and our state legislature appropriates 
funding every year to assist with the start-up cost for 
residency, because that seems to be the biggest issue for 
starting new residencies, is that initial start-up cost.
    Mr. SMITH of Nebraska. Do you ever find that there could be 
some stakeholders who want to participate in creating more 
slots, rather than just waiting for the Federal Government to 
put more money into those?
    Dr. GHOLSON. Yes. A lot of the hospitals, when they are 
looking at supporting the Graduate Medical Education, they will 
often put up some of their own funds because they see the 
economic impact down the line.
    Mr. SMITH of Nebraska. But there would not be something at 
the Federal level that would stand in the way of their wishing 
to do that. Would that be accurate?
    Dr. GHOLSON. The only thing I see is that sometimes there 
is a cap on payments at the Federal level that should probably 
be looked at for GME funding.
    Mr. SMITH of Nebraska. Okay, all right.
    Thank you, I yield back.
    Chairman BUCHANAN. Ms. Sewell.
    Ms. SEWELL. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and I want to thank 
our witnesses.
    Supporting our nation's physicians is pivotal to reducing 
negative health outcomes. Dr. Gholson, I represent Alabama, 
next door to Mississippi. And I think one of the reasons why I 
am so passionate about making sure we increase the number of 
slots, the GME slots--and I want to thank our colleague, 
Representative Fitzpatrick, and I for working so hard to try to 
increase the number of slots. We promote a bill, the Resident 
Physician Shortage Reduction Act, and we have tried to increase 
as many as we can in order to increase the workforce. The 
belief is that, as you said, if they do a residency in these 
smaller rural communities, hopefully they will stay.
    My district, Alabama's 7th congressional district, is both 
urban and rural. And like you, I have many independent 
physicians that are struggling. In fact, one is Dr. Steve Furr. 
Dr. Furr is a practicing rural family physician in my district 
from Clarke County, Alabama. Not only does Dr. Furr practice at 
the Family Medical Clinic of Jackson, Alabama, but he also 
serves as the national president for the American Academy of 
Family Physicians. Dr. Furr, like many family physicians, has 
served in his community as an independent physician for 25 
years without an inflationary update in 10 years. Yet, of 
course, all of his medical equipment has--costs have increased. 
And after COVID, obviously, the price of having good nursing 
support staff has increased, as well.
    We should be doing everything we can to ensure that 
independent physicians have enough capital to sustain their 
practices without having to resort to consolidation with large 
health systems, which is why I am also a very proud cosponsor 
of H.R. 2474, which is the Strengthening Medicare for Patients 
and Providers Act. It has strong bipartisan support. I think it 
is the right thing to do for our nation's physicians. This bill 
would provide physicians with the inflationary increase that 
they need by changing the Medicare payment rate to reflect the 
Medical economic index for inflation. This would help providers 
like Dr. Furr and other independent physicians.
    I think it is really important that we do whatever we can 
to level the playing field so that independent physicians have 
just as much of a chance as these big, private equity firms. 
And I am committed to trying to do everything I can to see that 
through. I know our whole committee is.
    Dr. Jha, thank you for sharing your expertise in today's 
hearing. How can we best support independent physicians in 
rural and underserved communities that do not desire to be 
consolidated with larger systems and larger practices?
    Dr. JHA. Yes, thank you, Congresswoman, and you actually 
laid out a lot of the issues. And I think our--my colleagues 
have here, as well.
    I mean, first of all, I do think we really do need to look 
at reimbursements for primary care more broadly. Nothing 
against our specialist friends who are on the panel, but 
primary care reimbursement continues to be a serious problem 
for family practitioners, general internists, pediatricians. I 
think that is an area that requires more attention. I think 
that would be helpful to all primary care physicians, certainly 
in rural areas.
    There is no question about it in my mind that--you know, if 
you think it is hard practicing in a world where a majority of 
your Medicare patients are MA in an urban setting, it is 
incredibly hard in a rural setting. You don't have the ability 
to have a full-time person just managing prior authorization.
    Ms. SEWELL. Yes.
    Dr. JHA. That is untenable. So some of the policy issues 
that I have talked about with MA, you know, with site-neutral 
payments, those are all going to be helpful everywhere, but 
particularly for the rural provider who is just much more 
vulnerable to these kinds of things.
    Ms. SEWELL. Absolutely. Dr. Gholson, can you talk a little 
bit about your experience, and what recommendations you would 
give this committee in order to help support independent 
physicians?
    Dr. GHOLSON. Well, I agree with my colleague. Paying 
primary care is vital to the--being able to sustain primary 
care independent practices in rural America.
    And the budget neutrality issue is also something I think 
that needs to be looked at. I love my colleagues. I don't want 
them undervalued because I feel like I need to be valued more.
    We have talked about prior authorizations, the 
administrative burden. That is key.
    It is just really paying us for the work that we do, and 
the value that we bring not only to our patients, but we bring 
value to our communities.
    Ms. SEWELL. Absolutely. And often times you are in 
communities where there is a medical desert. And so you also 
provide economic opportunity.
    Thank you so much, Mr. Chairman. I yield back the balance.
    Chairman BUCHANAN. Mr. Kelly.
    Mr. KELLY. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you all for 
taking a day out of your life to be here today to try to 
explain your business model. You guys have so much non-
productive labor, but everybody in business has that today.
    I am just going to take a couple of seconds to push a bill 
that we are going to be dropping on the 5th of June. It is the 
Improving Seniors' Timely Access to Care Act. Ms. DelBene is on 
this, Dr. Bucshon is on this, Dr. Bera is on this.
    And at this point I want to take the time that I have 
remaining and give it to my friend, Dr. Wenstrup, who is 
actually in this business, and goes through what you go through 
every day.
    But I got to tell you, I wish I could say that there is 
help on the way. I don't know how anybody runs a profitable 
business anymore, especially anytime the government gets 
involved in it.
    So at this point, Dr. Wenstrup, take it away.
    Mr. WENSTRUP. Thank you, Mr. Kelly, I appreciate you 
obliging me and giving me more time, and I will use my time 
when it comes about, too.
    Before I get started, without objection, I would like to 
enter a statement for the record on behalf of my friend, 
colleague, and fellow co-chair of the GOP Doctors Caucus, Dr. 
Murphy. He is away. He is going to be undergoing surgery. I 
want you all to keep him in your prayers. And without 
objection, I would like to submit his statement for the record.
    Chairman BUCHANAN. So ordered.
    [The statement of Mr. Murphy follows:]
    [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
    
    Mr. WENSTRUP. So obviously, everyone--everything you have 
said is spot on. We have covered all the points. But our 
country is facing a critical shortage, and access to quality 
care is definitely a problem.
    One thing I do want to say is that I hope that we don't, as 
the medical professionals, reduce the level of expectations in 
our education and training, as it will make it even more 
difficult to defend our value. We have got to do that. You 
mentioned board certification. That is important in every one 
of our specialties, because it represents ascertaining the 
highest level of quality care that you can provide. And I get 
that.
    You know, it is so hard to fathom what has happened to 
medicine because providers are the product. We are the product 
and are the key to a healthy nation to begin with. And it 
just--and we need a strong, uninterrupted doctor-patient 
relationship to exist.
    When I first started in practice, I set up my own practice. 
I had two employees. And if someone was sick, my mom came in. 
You like that, don't you, Dr. Gholson? And it was wonderful, it 
was wonderful. And as time changed, I joined a large orthopedic 
group, but I still practiced as an independent physician, I 
felt it. You know, it was the type of practice where at 
Christmas time people are bringing your gifts, you have 
developed relationships, and I think that is the key to a 
successful outcome.
    One of the reasons I ran for Congress is I looked at 
Washington and I said we have people making health care 
decisions that have never seen a patient, have no idea what it 
is like being out in the trenches. And the profession has 
changed a lot since I started that practice which I valued, but 
it was no problem when I went to a larger group because we were 
all of the same ilk. We were independent, we were practicing. 
Our reputation mattered in the community. That is what 
mattered, not what Washington thought. I have always felt it 
really didn't matter to me. Yes, you know, if you want us to do 
this, submit this and that--which, obviously, as you know, and 
as everyone has commented, got worse and worse and worse, and 
more and more burdensome.
    But I remember starting out in practice. And every day from 
Washington I was hearing about greedy doctors, greedy doctors. 
This is the 1980s. And I thought I am $185,000 in debt. That is 
cheap today, that is cheap today. And I worked during school to 
keep it down. I am not greedy. And I figured I will make a good 
living as long as I do a good job and take care of people. That 
is all it comes down to.
    I am against fraud. We want to catch people that are 
committing fraud and everything else. But other than that, get 
out of our way. Let us take care of people.
    We get on calls for prior authorization, and I am talking 
to somebody who is not in my specialty telling me what I can 
and can't do. I ask them for their license and how the patient 
can make an appointment for them, because if they are going to 
take over the care they should take over the liability. And I 
am just sick of it. They take no liability, but they determine 
the outcome of the patient, they delay the treatment of the 
patient. All of these things.
    We have got to take control, and we have got to start 
telling Washington, as providers and as Members of Congress, 
enough is enough.
    My time has expired here, but I am just getting warmed up. 
[Laughter.]
    Mr. WENSTRUP. I yield back.
    Chairman BUCHANAN. Stay tuned for act two. [Laughter.]
    Chairman BUCHANAN. Ms. Chu.
    Ms. CHU. Dr. Jha, thank you for your testimony. Every year, 
especially over the last few years, especially during the last 
half of the year, physician group after physician group will 
come in pleading not to just get zero percent increase in their 
Medicare fees. Current law has the updates at 2.93 percent for 
2024, but it will drop to 0 percent for 2025 unless Congress 
intervenes.
    So the physicians say the updates are insufficient, and 
that there is no means to deal with inflation. And of course, 
they talk about that, with this insufficient Medicare payment 
updates, it is really difficult to deal with their practices. 
We have heard a lot about these challenges today from so many 
of you who have testified.
    What do you recommend we do to upgrade how Medicare pays 
physicians in a way that will improve value without breaking 
the bank?
    Dr. JHA. Yes, Congresswoman, thank you for that very 
important question.
    I guess I would begin by saying that part of the reason 
they come in every year is because we have a long tradition of 
not fixing things for the long run, and then doing this kind of 
BandAid fix every year. We did that for a year. 
Eventually, MACRA solved one part of that problem, but then now 
we have this issue.
    Look, I think we need a long-term fix on inflation 
adjustment for our physician fee schedule. I just--I have not 
encountered someone who does not think that that is the case. 
Where there is some disagreement is exactly how do we do that. 
And do we use the Medicare economic index that tracks costs of 
practice? What proportion of that over what time?
    I think MedPAC has laid out a strategy and an approach that 
I think is pretty reasonable. I suspect other people may be--
you know, may not disagree with their--I mean may not fully 
agree with their approach.
    But the bottom line is that, instead of fixing this--you 
have plenty of other issues you need to be dealing with. Having 
to do this every single year creates uncertainty, it wastes 
time, and it creates hardship. And for physician practices 
planning out next year, if they don't know what they are going 
to get paid, that makes them more susceptible to being--to 
saying, fine, I will just take the deal from the hospital or 
the private equity firm. So a long-term fix is what we need at 
this moment.
    Ms. CHU. Thank you for that. Dr. Jha, you also highlight 
the issue of frequent wrongful prior authorization denials in 
Medicare Advantage plans. I am especially concerned that a 
growing number of these denials are determined by flawed 
algorithms and unvetted AI tools that fail to account for 
beneficiaries' individual circumstances.
    In 2022 the Department of Health and Human Services 
inspector general found that AI denials led to amputations, 
fast-spreading cancers, and other devastating diagnoses for 
some seniors. In response to these AI denials, I sent a letter 
to CMS last year detailing specific enforcement actions the 
agency can take to increase oversight of AI tools in Medicare 
Advantage coverage decisions. And earlier this year I was 
pleased that CMS finalized new prior authorization rules 
instructing plans to make coverage decisions based on 
individual circumstances, as opposed to AI.
    But questions about the enforcement of these instructions 
remain. So Dr. Jha, can you elaborate on how the rampant use of 
unvetted AI tools by MA insurers creates unnecessary burdens 
for physicians, and contributes to harmful outcomes for 
patients?
    And what additional measures should be taken to enforce 
these rules and ensure that private insurers are not leveraging 
AI tools to unlawfully deny care for seniors on Medicare 
Advantage?
    Dr. JHA. Yes, and again, I think we have heard almost 
everybody on this panel talk about prior authorization and its 
problems. I think there was a report out--I want to say it was 
ProPublica, but one of these news outlets--that looked at 
Cigna. Their denial--they spent a second-and-a-half per claim 
to make their denials. This is not a physician carefully 
reviewing the circumstances and making a clinical 
determination.
    The way that most of these insurance companies work is, if 
you can use an algorithm, you deny first a whole set of things. 
You just have raised the bar for the physician to have to come 
back, argue for the case. And a lot of physicians in a busy 
practice will just give up. And that is actually the strategy.
    Look, I think there are instances where prior authorization 
can make sense. If you are doing something somewhat 
experimental, extraordinarily expensive, extremely unusual, 
going through an extra burden or an extra hurdle can make 
sense. But I think, for more routine things, a lot of what CMS 
laid out--I think it was in your letter, as well, 
Congresswoman--is really smart. I think we have got to have 
actual physicians involved in the decision-making, transparency 
about authorized pre-authorization rates and denial rates. 
There is a lot of work to be done.
    But again, what I would love to see is long-term fixes on 
these, because Medicare Advantage is here to stay, and we have 
got to make sure that we solve these problems for the long run.
    Ms. CHU. Thank you, I yield back.
    Chairman BUCHANAN. Thank you.
    Dr. Wenstrup. And we are going to move two to one now.
    Mr. WENSTRUP. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    You know, one of the things I want to continue with what I 
was saying, when I said I didn't care what Washington thought, 
I didn't want them to have to worry about what I was doing, 
either, you know, at the same time. I cared about what the 
patient's results were, what they thought, what my referring 
doctor thought, what my hospital community thought, what my 
fellows around me, my society thought, all those types of 
things. Because when you do that, you are going to be fine.
    But if you are doing something out of the extraordinary or 
something inappropriate--Dr. Jha, you kind of touched on that--
I understand that. You know, let's have some oversight here and 
there. Our society should have oversight over how people 
practice. All those things are important.
    But I remember in my first term here with the Doctors 
Caucus, we were meeting with CMS, and they said to us, ``All 
the things we are starting to implement are really starting to 
work.''
    I said, ``For who? For who?'' I said, ``You have taken the 
joy out of taking care of people. You have made it such a 
burden to actually put your hands on someone's shoulder, and 
take care of them, and tell them you are going to be there for 
them, because you spent more of your time trying to appease 
they who never see the patient.''
    You know, going forward, okay, what are we going to do 
going forward? You know, at the GOP Doctors Caucus we talk 
about our focus on making America the healthiest nation on the 
planet. What are we doing? Is everything we are doing leading 
to better health for all of America? And how do we incentivize 
prevention, and how do we understand here in Washington the 
return on investment when we actually have a cure for 
something, and the cost of it pales in comparison to treating 
someone for 25 years?
    Those are the types of things we need to work on here, and 
move forward as a nation so that we can do more for patients. 
Because there is a greater value to the healthy human being, 
and even those with chronic illnesses if we can keep them 
healthy. Guess what? They can go to work. They can do things 
and pay taxes, which is more money we can get our grubby little 
hands on up here. And that is, you know--but the value of the 
healthy human being is never really considered. We have to keep 
promoting this.
    I do want to spend time talking about something that I know 
will be near and dear to Dr. Gholson. Xavier University in 
Cincinnati, Ohio is starting a new DO school. Why are they 
starting DO? Because DOs tend to gravitate more towards primary 
care. And look, you know, the practice that I have as a 
podiatric surgeon, you know, we are doing vascular, we are 
doing orthopedics, we are doing dermatology, we are doing a 
little bit of everything--sports medicine. We do a lot of 
prevention. We do a lot of prevention, try to prevent 
ulcerations, limb salvage, those types of things. So this is 
near and dear to my heart, that we focus on preventive care and 
incentivize it.
    You know, the doctor that does the CABG, the open heart 
surgery, that is great. You save a life, you should be rewarded 
for that. That is tremendous. But the primary care doctor that 
works with the patient that prevents them from ever needing 
that CABG, you really don't get rewarded for that. We need to 
focus on those types of things. That will be better for us as a 
nation.
    So Xavier started the DO school because they tend to focus 
more towards primary care, which we need in southern Ohio 
tremendously. At the end of the Trump Administration we did 
pass 1,000 new residencies with--a large focus should be going 
to rural. So I am trying to coordinate residency programs in 
our rural areas because, as you said, people stay. These are 
some of the solutions, though. These are the things we have to 
focus on.
    But I want to go back to the problem, and I really want my 
colleagues to focus on this. We need to take control.
    We passed the No Surprises Act in a bipartisan fashion to 
take anxiety away from patients who worry about--so they don't 
have to worry about their bill, it will be taken care of 
between the insurance provider and the doctor. We did it in a 
way that we hoped would be fair to everyone, and where doctors 
would want to be in network, and insurance companies would want 
you in network. And HHS went and changed the bill to exactly 
what we said we didn't want. These are problems we have here. 
But we need your voice to keep talking about these things so 
that we can make the changes.
    And so, I don't really have a question, but I want to go 
back to that with Dr. Gholson and get your comments on that, 
because I hope this is going to be a successful thing. And you 
have somewhat mimicked that with--I think it sounds like what 
you did at the state level by helping to get the residencies 
underway. Can you comment on that a little more?
    Dr. GHOLSON. On the work that the OMPW has done?
    Mr. WENSTRUP. Yes.
    Dr. GHOLSON. Yes. So we started that about 11 years ago 
with the idea that we needed to increase physicians in rural 
areas. Specifically, we needed to increase well-trained family 
medicine physicians in rural areas because we felt like that 
family physicians could take care of maternity needs, they 
could take care of pediatric needs, they could take care of 
preventative visits. It was--seemed like the best solution to 
help with our lack of medical care in rural areas.
    We too recently started a DO school in Mississippi. It is 
relatively young. I think they have graduated their second or 
third class, and it has been good to see their commitment to 
primary care in the state. But it is a pipeline. It doesn't 
happen overnight.
    One of the things we also did is we started the Rural 
Medical Scholarship Program. So we encouraged our medical 
students at both the MD university and the DO university to 
choose to go into primary care, and so they were able to 
graduate medical school with no debt.
    Mr. WENSTRUP. Thank you. My time is expired, but thank you 
very much.
    Chairman BUCHANAN. Mr. Hern.
    Mr. WENSTRUP. I greatly appreciate it.
    Mr. HERN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I would like to thank 
the witnesses for being here today and, as my colleague from 
Pennsylvania said, taking some time out of your life to come 
talk to us about something that you do every single day.
    I will--as my colleagues up here have described, I want to 
describe a health care system that I grew up in many years ago 
in the Ozark Mountains of Arkansas. I remember seeing the same 
doctor for every ailment I had, from the time my brother 
accidentally shot me with a bow and arrow to the scar on my 
face from a barbed wire fence to broken bones and even the 
common cold. This was a time before there were third-party 
billers, electronic health records. If my mom couldn't pay the 
bill that day, which she usually couldn't, she put it on the 
ledger. And when she got paid, she paid the doctor. And guess 
what? That system worked. I am here today, and getting to talk 
about the very thing that I grew up in.
    It seems so simple, you know, a patient and a doctor 
together were the heart of the health care system. But sadly, 
we are a long way from those days. Now we have third-party 
billers, huge health systems, and no one knows how much 
anything actually costs.
    One thing that really concerns me that I am glad this 
hearing highlights is the fact that the health care system will 
buy up a physician practice, jack up the prices--and sometimes 
overnight--and get paid much higher rates than private, 
physician-owned practices for the same exact services. A lot of 
times this is because these hospital systems tack on a so-
called facility fee. Study after study after study shows that 
patients are being charged exponentially more for the same 
services.
    According to an analysis of six outpatient procedures 
released last fall, hospital common procedure prices were 
substantially higher, in some cases five times higher than when 
performed at a physician's office. There is no evidence that 
outpatient care in hospital-owned facilities for the same 
services results in better outcomes. So patients are left with 
no added benefits, just higher prices and less choices. This is 
why I introduced H.R. 3417, the FAIR Act, which would require 
all off-campus outpatient departments to have separate NPIs so 
they cannot change--charge onsite hospital prices.
    Dr. Richardson, you touched on this a bit in your 
testimony. Would you agree that requiring unique identifiers 
for on and off-campus facilities and other site-neutral 
policies would lead to lower out-of-pocket costs for patients?
    Dr. RICHARDSON. Thank you for the question.
    Absolutely. We have a very comprehensive one-stop-shop 
practice, where we offer radiation therapy, diagnostic therapy, 
surgical therapy, medication therapy, clinical trials--
basically, treatments and diagnosis throughout the gamut. If we 
sold to a hospital system overnight, by changing nothing, not 
changing the sign on the door, not changing the physicians, not 
changing location, overnight it would cost two to three times 
more for any of the insurance companies or Medicare, and the 
patient's out-of-pocket, as well.
    So it absolutely makes a big difference, when all of a 
sudden you are billing under a hospital code instead of an 
outpatient procedure code or an outpatient clinic code, that 
the price just skyrockets. And it has nothing to do with 
quality of care. It has nothing to do with access of care. In 
fact, most of the time it would actually decrease access, 
because all of a sudden we are not motivated to work as much 
because we are getting paid substantial rates on RVUs, because 
the hospital can't afford to do it due to their site of service 
disparity and benefits and advantages in that realm.
    Mr. HERN. Thank you. Another issue that I am gravely 
concerned about and interested in is this idea of physician-
owned hospitals.
    I know we all have our opinions on the Affordable Care Act, 
and my opinion is there was a lot wrong with it, but today I 
focus on the ban on opening new, physician-owned hospitals. I 
found it a bit foolish that we have sat back and watched 
hospitals and health care systems take over and buy physician 
practices now employing upwards of 75 percent of our 
physicians, but do not let physicians, the ones providing the 
care, invest and run their own hospitals.
    Physician-owned hospitals have shown to provide equivalent 
or higher quality care more efficiently and at a lower cost, 
compared to community hospitals, resulting in significantly 
better patient experiences and outcomes. Ms. Kean, you noted 
the benefit patients see from going to an independently owned 
hospital group. Do you think allowing physicians to own 
hospitals would create more competition?
    And also, what type of benefits have you seen regarding 
patient care when physicians own their own place of work?
    Ms. KEAN. Yes, I know a lot about that. You know, as I 
said, we are 100 percent physician-owned, as a practice here in 
San Antonio. We own two outpatient ambulatory surgery centers 
100 percent, and we also manage them, and that is physician-
led.
    We do not own a hospital. We were not able to do that, 
unfortunately. But we did partner with a hospital in San 
Antonio to help us, you know, get control over the care that 
they are receiving in the hospital system.
    But yes, I don't see a reason why a physician can't own a 
hospital. I understand that there is regulatory, you know, 
requirements as far as a referral relationship and where that 
patient is going to go. But the physician actually knows where 
the best place is for the patient to receive care. And I think 
we just need to let them do that.
    Mr. HERN. Thank you.
    Mr. Chairman, I do want to note that when I said I got shot 
with--by a bow and arrow from my brother, that they all kind of 
smiled like they have worked on people who had been shot by bow 
and arrows before. [Laughter]
    Mr. HERN. So Mr. Chairman, I yield back. Thank you.
    Chairman BUCHANAN. By the way, I have got two brothers, so 
I know----
    [Laughter.]
    Chairman BUCHANAN. And three sisters. So I got--Mr. Davis, 
you are recognized.
    Mr. DAVIS. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and I want to thank all 
of the witnesses for very interesting insights and this 
discussion.
    I have been thinking I have been around health care now, I 
guess, for a pretty good period of time. I have worked in 
clinics, I have sat on the board of hospitals. I have taught at 
medical schools. I hope that I can leave today with a feeling 
that, yes, we are all concerned about conserving the private 
practice of medicine, the independent, private practice.
    I remember when I used to teach a course at the University 
of Illinois School of Medicine, and we taught a course called 
The Realities of Medicine. As young medical students would come 
in, they would talk about their goals and what they wanted to 
do. Of course, many of them would indicate that they wanted to 
do family medicine, family practice. They wanted to be 
internists. By the time they graduated, many of them would have 
changed their positions and changed their minds, and would 
decide that they needed to go into something that compensated 
them a little differently, that the reality was they may have 
wanted to do one thing, but when it got down to deciding, they 
would find it necessary to decide that they want to do 
something else.
    And I guess there is always this business of economy, the 
business of our economic system, and the business of where do 
we and how do we equalize or try and equalize systems so that 
the systems work together.
    I am a sociologist. I am a big fan of a fellow called 
Frederick Douglass, who used to say that he knew one thing if 
he didn't know anything else, and that is that in this world 
you may not get everything that you pay for, but you will 
certainly pay for everything that you get, and that you pay one 
way or you would pay the other.
    I wonder if each one of us could give one thing you think 
we can really do that would help conserve and preserve the 
independent, private practice of medicine.
    I have been reading the papers, and I have read several 
stories in the last weeks or two.
    So Dr. Gholson, why don't you just start and go?
    Dr. GHOLSON. It is tough to give you just one thing, so I 
am kind of torn between get rid of prior authorizations 
absolutely, completely, and for--as primary care, paying us for 
what we are worth.
    Dr. RICHARDSON. Thank you. I think maybe one of the biggest 
indicators or the biggest thing to keep us in business is just 
updating the physician fee schedule so we can actually keep 
pace with the cost of running a practice. Our overhead, 
employee overhead, has gone up 30 percent in the last 2 years. 
Our medical insurance goes up 10 to 20 percent every year. We 
literally just can't keep pace with it, and we can't keep 
hiring. So updating that fee schedule that keeps pace with that 
cost would be beneficial.
    Ms. KEAN. I would like to get the medical record back in 
the hands of the physicians, instead of these AI tools and 
insurance carriers. It has become a billing weapon, and not the 
medical record that it used to be. I would like to see us get 
that back.
    Dr. DESAI. Congressman Davis, thank you for the question.
    We have got to fix the Medicare physician reimbursement 
schedule. And H.R. 2474 and 6371 need to be passed to allow 
physicians to maintain practices to preserve that sanctity, 
which you so appropriately referenced, between the patient and 
the physician. We have got to fix that, and we need your help.
    Dr. JHA. Congressman, my--if you--number one for me is 
site-neutral payments. I think it is a major reason why we are 
having--we are seeing physician practices get bought out.
    Second, dealing with Medicare Advantage prior authorization 
that we have talked about.
    I also think physician fee schedule is important. But if I 
had to order it, site-neutral; going after MA; dealing with 
private equity. Those are major forces in the health system 
that we have to deal with.
    Mr. DAVIS. Thank you all very much.
    Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I yield back.
    Chairman BUCHANAN. Yes, Mrs. Miller, you are recognized.
    Mrs. MILLER. Thank you, Chairman Buchanan and Ranking 
Member Doggett, and thank you all for being here today.
    I cannot agree more with the physicians on our committee 
and the life that they have led, the lives you all have led, 
and how important you are. You are so important.
    I live in West Virginia, a very, very rural state. You 
know, sometimes it can take from an hour to almost five hours, 
really, to get to your doctor or to your hospital because our 
terrain is just very challenging. But we need care. And, you 
know, just for a routine checkup sometimes, it is critical that 
our local, rural physician practices exist so that they aren't 
always burdened, you know, with the far drive and the expensive 
visits to a hospital for something very minor. That has worried 
me for years, having to go to a hospital for something very 
minor when you could go to your family physician.
    Today's economic environment, with inflation through the 
roof, and thanks to the reckless spending that continues to go 
on with this Administration, many independent physician 
practices cannot afford to keep their doors open. Frankly, I 
think the Federal Government doesn't reimburse well enough to 
make it feasible for you to do it at all. So this is a huge 
issue for physicians, as well as patients.
    Dr. Gholson, I was really disheartened to hear about your 
struggles and your practice that you endured because of bad 
policy. And I know firsthand how devastating it is to rural 
communities to lose their local doctor. So to help paint the 
picture for my colleagues that may not be from rural areas--and 
there are a lot of them that aren't here that really ought to 
hear this--can you go into detail about the different 
physician-patient relationships that happen in independent 
practices, particularly in rural areas, compared to physicians 
in these huge practices?
    Dr. GHOLSON. So to paint the picture of how rural my 
community is, we are a one-stoplight town.
    Mrs. MILLER. Yes.
    Dr. GHOLSON. My patients would be able--they could walk to 
my practice to see me, because we were right downtown. I was 
able to do home visits with my patients, which gave you 
incredible insight to what was going on in their life. I would 
see them at Walmart, and they would talk to me about their 
care. I would see them in church, and they would ask me 
questions about which specialists they felt like they needed to 
go to. And even though I closed my practice in 2022, I still 
get those questions from my former patients, even today.
    So you really are part of the community. You are part of 
the fabric. You sponsor the local baseball teams. You are at 
the team events for--as team physicians. The whole community 
becomes like family.
    Mrs. MILLER. You are almost the elder of the family, so to 
speak. I mean, you are that--you are just that important.
    As much as I would love to see every independent practice 
thrive, I know that there are tons of challenges out there that 
you all face that can drive you to close or sell your practices 
and move into a larger health system. Prior to having to make 
the impossible choice to close your practice, can you tell us 
some of the pressures that come with competing for your 
workforce with the larger health systems, or if there is any 
pressure to consolidate your practices?
    Dr. GHOLSON. So for me, competing with the local hospital 
is probably the biggest thing with my workforce. I could not 
compete with what they were able to pay my nursing staff. We 
already had a nursing shortage going into COVID, and COVID 
exacerbated the nursing shortage. A lot of nurses started doing 
travel nursing.
    Mrs. MILLER. Oh, yes.
    Dr. GHOLSON. And so it was just very difficult to compete, 
and physicians--and the hospitals had an advantage because of 
the facility fees they were able to garner from the care that 
they were receiving. So that made it very difficult to compete.
    Mrs. MILLER. You are right.
    Dr. Richardson, in order for people to understand more the 
business side of Medicare reimbursement simply not being enough 
to even cover the costs of operating in a rural area, are there 
examples where Medicare regulations or reimbursement 
requirements have limited your practice's ability to provide 
high-quality services to your rural patients?
    Dr. RICHARDSON. I think it is just more of everything is 
more difficult when you are treating patients in rural areas. 
Unless you actually have a provider in that area, from a 
specialist standpoint, you are traveling. I mentioned earlier 
we have 13 clinics throughout the state. Those are clinics 
where we actually get in our car, grab our staff, and grab our 
equipment, our scopes, our drugs, put them in our trunk, drive 
to that community to run a clinic, and sometimes do some simple 
outpatient surgeries at that local, rural hospital, and then 
drive back. So it is just an increased burden. It is a burden 
to your quality of life. It is a burden to your practice at 
home.
    We have had the discussion of consolidating care and making 
patients drive to the Wichita metro area because we are so 
overburdened there, and we just haven't had the heart to do it 
because many of these patients simply cannot or would not make 
the travel. They don't have the social support or the resources 
to drive three to four hours.
    Mrs. MILLER. That is right.
    Dr. RICHARDSON. And honestly, I think one of the biggest 
improvements we have had over the last couple of years, one of 
the good things that came out of the pandemic, was actually 
telemedicine.
    Mrs. MILLER. Right.
    Dr. RICHARDSON. There are so many of these patients in 
rural Kansas that need a five-minute appointment with me that 
can easily be done over telemedicine. And so we have tried to 
take advantage of that when possible.
    Mrs. MILLER. Thank you for that answer.
    And I yield back.
    Chairman BUCHANAN. Thank you.
    Mr. Fitzpatrick, you are recognized.
    Mr. FITZPATRICK. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you all for 
being here today.
    Medicare physician pay and its impacts on patient access to 
care remains a major issue in my community in Bucks and 
Montgomery Counties in Pennsylvania, as it has been and 
continues to be across the country. While I was pleased that 
Congress acted in the March 8 government funding package to 
address the Medicare physician pay cuts, predictable, 
sustainable reforms are still needed to prevent this in the 
future.
    As you all are well aware, adjusted for inflation and 
practice costs, Medicare physician pay plummeted a total of 29 
percent from 2001 to 2024, and physicians now face another 
steep 3 percent payment cut at the end of this year.
    My first question to you, Ms. Kean: Can you discuss some of 
the impacts that this pressing financial instability is having 
on physician practices, including things like difficulty in 
retaining staff, trouble keeping their doors open, rising 
costs, administrative burdens, and the like?
    Ms. KEAN. Thank you for the question. Yes. I mean, trying 
to retain our staff has been very, very difficult, and it is 
not just the hospitals that we are competing against. I am 
competing against retail entities that can just simply raise 
their prices. We can't do that. And so that is probably the 
biggest thing that is the impact there.
    And yes, Congress, you know, must act. You know, Congress 
must act to avoid these cuts. And we all cheer that, you know, 
it wasn't as bad as it could have been. It is as bad as it has 
ever been, and it needs to be addressed immediately. If this 
panel is trying to figure out how to protect private practices, 
that is the number-one thing. There is nothing else after that.
    Mr. FITZPATRICK. And have you seen a disparate impact in 
rural communities, underserved communities?
    Ms. KEAN. Yes, absolutely. I mean, the rural communities 
are impacted in a greater way. They are losing their doctors.
    And, you know, just listening to the physicians here--I am 
not a physician, but I am an advocate for them, and when I hear 
these stories, it just breaks my heart. It shouldn't be like 
that. And it is because of these things that, you know, we are 
talking about today that are getting in the way of taking care 
of patients, and for patients--or for doctors to even want to 
be doctors. We need help.
    Mr. FITZPATRICK. Dr. Desai, you had stated in your 
testimony that since 2001 the cost of operating a medical 
practice has increased by 47 percent. Could you explain how 
these operating costs have impacted your practice and others 
like yours?
    And how do you think Congress can address this?
    Dr. DESAI. Congressman Fitzpatrick, thank you for the 
question.
    You are absolutely right. The cost of seeing patients and 
providing the care that these patients deserve and need is 
astronomically different from when I started in practice. When 
you look at the inflationary updates that Medicare hospitals 
and skilled nursing facilities get that physicians simply 
haven't been a part of and have been excluded from, it makes it 
incredibly difficult to see patients on a day-to-day basis.
    I can just give you an example. In my practice alone we 
have to increase the volume of patients that we have to see on 
a day-to-day basis to justify the increasing overhead costs 
that I have to pay for these medical assistants to be able to 
be in the exam room typing on an iPad, when I should be 
spending time with you, checking you for skin cancer and 
melanoma and creating that relationship, which I do on a 
clinical basis, but I am challenged at the same time to make 
sure I have assistance there to help me that I can afford to 
keep to be able to see those patients that I need to see 
because the overhead is high.
    So it is an incredibly vicious cycle. And what concerns me 
the most is that my job is to save lives from skin cancer, make 
people's skin disease better, keep people out of the hospital. 
It becomes incredibly challenging to do that when the day-to-
day practice of medicine keeps it very hard to simply keep the 
lights on and to pay the bills to run the practice.
    Mr. FITZPATRICK. Thank you, Dr. Desai.
    I just want to associate myself with the comments of Dr. 
Wenstrup. The world needs the United States of America, and the 
only way we can be there for America and the world is if we are 
healthy. And the only way we can be healthy is if the doctor-
patient relationship is healthy, as well. And the more--the 
criticism that I have always shared with my colleagues about 
the CFR, it is a cumulative registry. We always add to it, we 
never address what is redundant, what is duplicative, and what 
is actually outcome-determinative in the opposite effect, the 
opposite direction of what the intended purpose of that 
regulation was.
    So I am hopeful that we are going to continue to work 
together on this committee to address the redundancies. We 
talked about several of them here. Prior authorization is 
probably--I mean, in addition to physician cuts, Medicare 
payment reimbursement, the amount of time you have to spend 
dealing with bureaucrats rather than serving your patients 
could lead to the death of health care in America. And we have 
to address it with urgency.
    I yield back, sir.
    Chairman BUCHANAN. Mr. Beyer.
    Mr. BEYER. Mr. Chairman, Ranking Member, thank you for 
holding this and thank you for being here today.
    My sister, my father-in-law, and my uncle all had full 
careers as independent physicians, and I very much appreciate 
that this is one of those wonderful pieces of Ways and Means 
where almost everybody on the committee agrees that we really 
need to make sure that we preserve the independent physician 
practices.
    To that end, Dr. Jha, I am the father of two Brunonians, so 
I am glad to have you here. But you championed site neutrality. 
And 10 years ago Mike Pompeo, when he was a humble member of 
the House, and I sponsored a site neutrality bill, and I have 
done that every year since, which means I get a lot of visits 
from hospitals who tell me why this is such a bad thing, that 
they deserve to get more because they are taking care of the 
indigents. They have to be there 24 hours a day. They have all 
these arguments.
    From your perspective, why is site neutrality still so 
important?
    Dr. JHA. Yes, Congressman thank you.
    Site neutrality is just critical for all of the reasons you 
have heard today. Look, if the issue for hospitals is they have 
to take care of a sicker, a more indigent population, we should 
figure out how to pay for that directly. But what site 
neutrality does is it totally perverts the health care 
marketplace, where there is now this very large incentive for 
hospitals to buy up physician practices. And that doesn't 
increase access, it doesn't increase quality. All it does is it 
just allows Medicare to pay a lot more. Consumers pay a lot 
more through private insurance.
    And there has been progress on site neutrality. I don't 
want to say we have made no progress, but there are really 
large sets of issues that are still not addressed.
    I think I have heard from my friends and colleagues in the 
hospital industry who worry about this. You know, we have a 
long history in American health policy of doing X to solve Y. 
If the problem is that hospitals are not getting paid enough 
for certain things, let's pay them more to do those certain 
things. Let's not have a policy that totally perverts the 
marketplace. I think that is not the solution.
    And it is creating--I mean, if you think about where 
private physicians have been largely getting bought out, it has 
largely been hospitals. Yes, private equity more recently. Yes, 
MA is a huge part of the problem. But it is hospitals that have 
been buying out practices because of a government policy that 
we can reverse.
    Mr. BEYER. By the way, that was exactly my family's 
experience. My father-in-law retired, turned the practice over 
to his younger colleague who, two years later, sold it to the 
hospital because he had to.
    So Dr. Gholson, we really appreciate all the challenges 
that you and your practice have faced. You talked about--let me 
quote--50 percent of your time on cumbersome administrative 
tasks. We spent a lot of time up here on AI, and one of the 
things that seems to be exciting is ambient clinical 
documentation. Can you use that? Is it affordable for a 
practice in Mississippi? Would that change your life much?
    Dr. GHOLSON. So yes, I use AI now to help create patient 
education materials. It saves time. I do have to review them.
    I am really looking forward to seeing what AI does in the 
documentation arena, because we spend a lot of our time 
documenting. So I think there is some promise with AI.
    I also am concerned on the flip side of what insurers are 
going to do with AI that may be detrimental. So I think it 
needs to have some guardrails.
    Mr. BEYER. Yes, yes, yes. Every doctor I know is terrified 
of a machine algorithm making the decision of what patient care 
is.
    Ms. Kean, you are not a big fan of the way we do EHRs. How 
would you fix the electronic health record system?
    Ms. KEAN. Oh, boy. That is a big question.
    You know, I think that interoperability is probably the 
biggest thing, and that is, you know, every single one of us, 
when you come to our practice, we are going to ask you the same 
questions. Why do we have to keep asking those questions over 
and over again? Isn't there a way that we can communicate so 
that, you know, if the first physician asks those questions, it 
can be passed through to all of us?
    We need help with that. It doesn't seem like it is 
happening. We do get medical records from other providers, and 
it does come in automatically. But in order to actually figure 
out what the care happened, you have to go through all of the 
MIPS checkboxes of everything that somebody has asked the 
questions about that does not provide any real information to 
the doctor that needs to treat the patient. We need to know 
what that other doctor had to say, and what they are sending to 
us for----
    Mr. BEYER. Yes.
    Ms. KEAN [continuing]. And how we are going to be able to 
evaluate that, and then get that information back to them. The 
rest of the information that we are being asked is really for 
the record, from a billing perspective, and that is it.
    Mr. BEYER. Great, thank you. I know the Veterans Affairs 
Department and the Department of Defense are trying to work 
hard just to make veterans and active duty military EHRs work 
together, and it has been a huge and problematic problem.
    All right. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, I yield back.
    Chairman BUCHANAN. Ms. Tenney, you are recognized.
    Ms. TENNEY. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you to the 
witnesses and for your expert testimony.
    I also really appreciate the insight that we receive on 
this committee from some of our doctors: Dr. Wenstrup, also Dr. 
Murphy, and also Dr. Ferguson, who serves on the main 
committee.
    And I have also served on numerous hospital boards, nursing 
home boards, and we have seen this shift away from the doctor-
patient relationship that we were all concerned about happening 
if we tried to centralize and federalize our system, our health 
care system.
    I am a practicing attorney. We see this, a similar thing, 
happening in our legal field, where the bureaucrats decide what 
legal questions are answered. The bureaucrats decide what 
decisions judge make--judges make. My dad was also a judge.
    But I want to just touch on a couple of things, but I first 
want to ask all of you, because we have talked about these 
issues in getting more doctors, better doctors, getting--more 
interested in getting into the health care system. Could I ask 
you, do you agree--and I am going to ask each one on the 
panel--that we need to have and protect a merit-based system in 
our health care field, that we have the very best people going 
into this field?
    And I just want to start with Dr. Gholson and go all the 
way across the board. Do you think that that--we should 
continue--or continue to protect a merit-based system in terms 
of who gets to be a physician?
    Dr. GHOLSON. I do think we need to protect the merit-based 
system, but I also think that the merits need to be 
transparent. We need to know the playing field by which we are 
being judged. And right now that is not happening.
    Ms. TENNEY. Okay. Can you just go on and give us, like, a 
one-sentence answer? Thank you.
    Dr. RICHARDSON. Yes, definitely merit-based. You can't walk 
into an ER and have someone treating you that was there because 
of other factors besides their merit.
    Ms. TENNEY. All right, thank you.
    Ms. Kean.
    Ms. KEAN. Yes, I absolutely agree.
    Ms. TENNEY. Dr. Desai?
    Dr. DESAI. Thank you, Congresswoman. Absolutely. I think we 
need to cultivate the best and brightest minds in this country 
to go into medicine. We need that for the future of the health 
care system. We have those people in our country. We need to 
promote them to become doctors.
    Ms. TENNEY. So transparently, we want to make sure that 
everyone is qualified based on a neutral standard, not we don't 
know who they are, we just know they are excellent when they 
take their boards.
    Dr. DESAI. And if they want to be a doctor, they can become 
a doctor.
    Ms. TENNEY. That is great. Thank you.
    Doctor Jha.
    Dr. JHA. Yes, I think I agree with my colleagues. 
Transparent standards, merit-based. Very clear that we want a 
workforce that can take care of the American people at the 
highest quality possible.
    Ms. TENNEY. Thank you so much.
    I just--I want to jump into a couple of questions. So 
Medicare reimbursement to these providers, various providers, 
doctors who are failing to keep up with the increasing costs of 
operating a physician practice, I hear--almost every doctor I 
have had in the last 20 years has retired or been--ended up as 
a hospitalist. You know, the cost of operating a practice, we 
have outlined this all day today.
    Medicare beneficiaries in my underserved area--Dr. Gholson, 
I have towns in my district that have a stop sign, not even a 
stoplight, so--and we have a dire physician need in upstate New 
York, way up in the rural areas. So these are huge problems.
    And the 2023 Medicare Trustees report identified ongoing 
reimbursement gaps as a threat to long-term access to 
physicians for Medicare beneficiaries. I wanted to ask you to 
what extent has the growing gap between the operational costs 
of independent physician practices and Medicare's actual 
payment affected the viability of practices, and how has it 
impacted patient access in rural areas?
    And I want to ask Dr. Gholson that, and also Dr. 
Richardson. If you could, just comment. We are struggling to 
get any kind of MD in federally-funded health care spaces in 
my--in entire counties in my district. If you could just say--
--
    Dr. GHOLSON. Yes, I would--it impacts it tremendously. 
Every January I hold my breath, waiting for the fix. In the 
meantime, I am having discussions with my office manager of 
what staff I am going to reduce hours or let go, which is going 
to impact the access that my patients have to me.
    Ms. TENNEY. And Dr. Richardson.
    Dr. RICHARDSON. Yes, I think I mentioned earlier that our 
employee overhead has gone up 30 percent in the last year, and 
that is not the only sector within our business that we are 
paying more for. So I would venture to say Medicare Advantage 
plans actually decrease access because, at least where I am, 
most of the specialists try not to participate in them. The 
patients are always coming in saying, ``Well, I am trying to 
find an insurance plan that my doctor accepts,'' and those 
Medicare Advantage--or disadvantage plans, whatever you want to 
call them--are actually decreasing access in my area.
    Ms. TENNEY. Well, let me ask you, outside of congressional 
intervention, you know, to update the physician fee schedule, 
what else can we do? What kind of targeted reforms can we do 
generally to the practice of medicine to create a stable, 
predictable fee schedule that you can rely on, not knowing, you 
know, year end to the changes?
    What can we do? And I only have a few seconds left, but if 
you could, jump in.
    Dr. RICHARDSON. It has got to be tied to just the cost of 
taking care of patients. As long as we are taking care of--and 
we are able to keep a business open to take care of the 
patients, whatever that fee schedule is----
    Ms. TENNEY. Well, what can we do in Congress?
    I mean, we would love to be able to give you better access 
to that care, and better access to a reliable, stable, 
predictable fee schedule.
    Dr. RICHARDSON. Well, mark the index to the MEI, you know, 
the updates need to be, I think, indexed to the MEI to adjust 
for the cost of business.
    Ms. TENNEY. Great. Thank you so much. I thank you all for 
your great testimony.
    And I yield back.
    Chairman BUCHANAN. Mr. Moore, you are recognized.
    Mr. MOORE of Utah. Thank you, Chairman Buchanan. Thanks for 
holding this important Health Subcommittee hearing today on the 
challenges facing independent physician practices.
    And your expertise is very much appreciated today. Thank 
you, witnesses.
    A contributing factor to the collapse of private practice 
are maybe well-meaning but overly burdensome reporting and 
administrative requirements placed on physicians such as the 
Merit-based Incentive Payment System, or MIPS. Quality 
measurement in MIPS can be costly, time-consuming, and, at 
times, bear little relation to physicians' actual performance 
in providing quality care to beneficiaries.
    One estimate found physicians spend an average of $12,800 
annually to comply with MIPS's quality measure reporting, 
devoting approximately 53 hours per physician.
    A 2022 study in the Journal of the American Medical 
Association found that MIPS scores are inconsistently related 
to performance, and physicians caring for more medically and 
socially vulnerable patients were more likely to receive low 
scores, despite providing high-quality care. Kind of 
counterintuitive, if you will.
    And among a survey of small, rural providers, few 
participants felt that MIPS would improve quality care or--
sorry, improve care quality, or provide administrative relief.
    I had a group--as soon as I came, one of my first meetings 
I came on when I came on the Ways and Means, even--came and 
laid all this out for us on the issues that exist within the 
quality care standards within this program. And this is not a 
big attention-getting issue. This isn't going to cause a lot of 
bickering back and forth between parties. This is a fundamental 
problem, the way that CMS operates and it has existed for 
years. It should be low-hanging fruit.
    And I would love to just get a little perspective to find 
ways to accurately reflect patients' outcomes and the value a 
physician is providing to the Medicare program. Dr. Desai, do 
you feel that quality reporting metrics and MIPS, more broadly, 
do a good job of accurately assessing the level of care you 
provide to patients?
    What recommendations do you have to reform these quality 
measures?
    Dr. DESAI. Congressman Moore, thank you very much for that 
very pertinent and valuable question, and I appreciate you 
bringing up the challenges of reporting burdens, because 
reporting is burdensome.
    MIPS has not shown to help make care better as a well-
rounded outcome for patients. I can tell you, from my 
experience, the art of that office visit, the 20 minutes that I 
want to spend with you talking about your skin disease, some of 
that goes into clicking buttons on an iPad that have nothing to 
do with what you are there to see me for. For example, if you 
are coming in to see me to take care of a melanoma, which is a 
deadly skin cancer, half of the things that I have to report in 
your chart that day have nothing to do with your medical 
history related to your skin cancer.
    We know that MIPS has caused challenges, and I will give 
you one example. There was a study that actually showed doctors 
who took care of patients from a higher social risk perspective 
ended up with lower MIPS scores, and actually got decreased 
reimbursement, even though they were taking care of patients 
who are much more at risk, and have much more complex medical 
illnesses. So we have got to fix MIPS. It hasn't improved 
anything.
    And what is challenging is CMS is now going into the next 
phase of MIPS value pathways and other systems which are 
seemingly supposed to improve that process, and have already, 
prior to implementation, posed major challenges.
    Mr. MOORE of Utah. So again, counter-intuitive.
    Dr. Richardson and Dr. Jha, I saw you nodding, as well. 
Anything to quickly add to that?
    Dr. RICHARDSON. No, the reporting is largely meaningless. 
He is spot on. Most of what we are reporting and spending 
office time and personnel time to do has nothing to do with the 
care that the patient is there for, especially when you are 
dealing with specialists.
    I take care of a lot of advanced prostate cancer patients, 
and we are spending time charting, documenting, following up, 
finding out if they had their colonoscopy or if they want to 
stop smoking. And granted, those things are great from a 
general practitioner standpoint, but many of these reporting 
details, from a specialist's standpoint, are completely 
meaningless.
    Mr. MOORE of Utah. Thank you.
    Dr. RICHARDSON. And there is no tie to quality or value.
    Dr. JHA. Yes, and I will say this. This is a very classic 
problem of policy. I think it was a well-intended program when 
it was first created. It had bipartisan support. Some of us 
were hopeful that it would actually work. It really hasn't. 
Like, the evidence here is MIPS doesn't improve quality, it 
just burdens physicians. And at this moment we have just got to 
find a path forward.
    And I will say quality reporting is important, as a 
concept. The measure should be we should have a smaller number 
of measures, it should be automatically collected, and they 
should focus on things that patients care about, patient 
outcomes. We can do that. We have the technology. That is not 
what MIPS is achieving today.
    Mr. MOORE of Utah. Even in my remarks that talked about 
being well-meaning, well-meaning at first and it just hasn't--
it hasn't hit the mark.
    We are working on a lot of things to enhance transparency 
and incorporate provider, patient, and other stakeholders' 
perspectives. Right from your initial responses, like, you give 
me more motivation to continue on with that initial 
conversation I have. Our team is all in on this, and would love 
to engage with any of you and continue to any of my colleagues.
    So again, thank you, Chairman, I yield back.
    Chairman BUCHANAN. Mrs. Steel, you are recognized.
    Mrs. STEEL. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    Apart from Hawaii, California ranks first among the states 
with the highest cost of living, between 35 to 45 percent above 
the national average. California consumers have been--I mean, 
have seen--prices grow about 20 percent overall in 2020, and 
many are experiencing continued rising prices, especially in 
services such as medical care, housing, and electricity, and 
others.
    At the same time, California seniors are facing a physician 
shortage heightened from the pandemic, physician burnout, 
rising overhead costs, and declining reimbursement. And the 
physician shortage is impacting patients across--access to 
necessary care. And it is much worse in California.
    And I am just so glad that all the witnesses are coming 
here that, you know, we can discuss about independent 
physicians. And thank you for all coming.
    And I just want to ask all the witnesses. California's 
physician practice landscape is rapidly changing toward an 
increase in market consolidation and vertical integration. That 
is what I see in California. What do these trends mean for 
patients I represent and to the doctors, for especially 
independent doctors?
    You can just--anybody who wants to answer it is going to be 
great.
    Dr. JHA. Well, maybe, Congresswoman, I will just start by 
saying very quickly the evidence on consolidation is actually 
quite clear when--whether it is vertical consolidation, it is 
horizontal consolidation, consolidation that is really not 
focused on integration and improving care tends to cost more, 
patients have worse experience, physicians who practice in them 
are--worse experience. It is sort of one of those rare things 
where everybody is worse off, except maybe the provider 
organization that can make more money.
    So there is a series of things that we can do to deal with 
that consolidation. We have talked about a lot about some of 
those policies: site neutrality, dealing with MA, vigorous 
enforcement of antitrust. But this is an issue that is really 
prominent in California, but it is prominent across the 
country.
    Dr. DESAI. Congresswoman Steel, thank you very much for 
bringing that up, and I appreciate you asking about seniors, 
because I think it is incredibly important that we realize 
that, when we talk about Medicare payment system, we are 
talking about seniors being able to see a doctor for the health 
care they deserve, that they have dedicated their lives for, 
and that they need.
    And I think that all of my panelists agree that, once we 
get the appropriate level of inflation-adjusted reimbursement 
tied to the MEI with bills like H.R. 2474 and 6371, we can at 
least start to preserve and ensure that seniors have the access 
that they need.
    I will also mention that when we talk about access to care, 
we need to make sure that the health care system still attracts 
young students and young, bright minds to go into medicine who 
want to become doctors and serve patients. Otherwise, when we 
all become seniors, who is going to take care of us?
    I give you an example of my daughter, an 11-year-old. She 
wants to be a dermatologist and take care of patients with skin 
disease when she gets older. I hope there is a practice of 
medicine and dermatology for her to become one. I honestly 
don't know what the future holds, and I really appreciate you 
bringing up the aspect of seniors' care, because it represents 
a phase of life that we will all be in at some point. Thank 
you.
    Mrs. STEEL. Ms. Kean, before you go, you know, you were 
talking about the redundancy that, you know, you were asking 
these questions that every patient is coming in, and AI is a 
really big part of it. And I am glad that I am not on the--just 
the Ways and Means Committee and our Health Subcommittee, but I 
am on the AI task force, too.
    So we have been talking a lot about health care issues 
because we want to prevent that redundancy and time wasting 
with the patients, and you can see--actually give more to, you 
know, patients' attention instead of that, you know, asking 
same questions over and over and then try to get the records, 
you know, from the other doctors. So I just want to talk about 
just a little bit more that, you know what--we have a policy, 
and you cannot really share much about these patients and other 
stuff. How are we going to help, and how are we going to store 
these, you know, data?
    Because I am on the Select Committee on China, too. So, you 
know what? We see a lot of these data that has been stolen. So, 
you know, how are we going to really, you know, store all these 
data, and how are we going to share only with our physicians?
    Ms. KEAN. Yes, I think that, you know, putting the care 
back in the hands of the patients, and the medical records back 
in the hands of the patients, I think, is probably the primary 
thing that could happen. If you allow them to contain that, to 
have access to the medical records, we are huge proponents of 
that. We want patients to be 100 percent involved in their 
care, and that means knowing what is in their charts.
    I think that that is probably a way to go, and to find some 
way to protect that would be, you know, critical.
    Mrs. STEEL. Mr. Chairman, my time is up. I have a lot of 
questions here, so I am going to just submit in writing.
    Chairman BUCHANAN. Okay.
    Mrs. STEEL. Thank you.
    Chairman BUCHANAN. Ms. Van Duyne, you are recognized.
    Ms. VAN DUYNE. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.
    Two weeks ago the House Committee on Small Business held a 
hearing on examining the impacts of the regulatory burden on 
small practices. I am glad to see us holding this hearing in 
this committee, and it is clear that over-regulating is killing 
private practices.
    In Texas's 24th district I have hosted a number of 
roundtables with doctors, who have--many of--are attendees here 
today as a witness.
    Dr. Desai, thank you so much. It is great to see you here 
today. I appreciate you making the trip up. I always make it a 
point to ask our physicians how much time that they spend in a 
screening. You were talking about this earlier, doing 
administrative work versus face to face with their patients. 
And it is shocking to hear the time that our medical providers 
have to spend on compliance. And they would rather, obviously, 
strongly prefer to spend the time with their patients.
    In fact, one local doctor--I am sure you remember this--she 
even shared a heartbreaking story about how she had finally 
achieved the American dream. She had opened her own practice, 
only to be forced to sell it because it got too expensive to 
keep up with all of the government red tape.
    When regulatory costs reach the point that it is no longer 
feasible for small, private health care practices to keep their 
doors open, it leads to one thing, and you have been mentioning 
this all day: consolidation. That decreases quality of care, it 
limits competition, which increase costs, and it limits the 
possibility of physicians owning their own businesses, thereby 
restricting access to care and ultimately hurting patients.
    We can't continue to allow over-regulation to shut the 
doors of small care providers, and I am glad that our committee 
is focused on finding solutions to provide better and more 
affordable patient care.
    Dr. Desai, it is great to see you again. And I would like 
to ask you what reforms that you would like to see that would 
encourage higher quality care in Medicare, while reducing those 
kind of burdens for physicians.
    Dr. DESAI. Congresswoman Van Duyne, it is great to see you, 
as well. And thank you, in particular, for your leadership and 
all of the work that you are doing in this space, along with 
the subcommittee and the committee.
    I think you hit the nail on the head. I think the fact that 
we are here in a meeting talking about physicians not being 
able to dedicate their time to serving the patients' needs 
because they are too busy filling out paperwork, clicking 
buttons, on a phone call, hiring dedicated employees that are 
full-time equivalents with full salaries simply to do 
burdensome paperwork like prior authorizations like we have 
talked about is the problem.
    I think we have got to make sure that we, as physicians, 
get reimbursed for the care that we are providing. And I think 
the important message here is, with all of your leadership on 
bills like H.R. 2474 and 6371, we can at least start to make 
sure that those of us in private practice, those in academic 
practice, those in large groups--this is all across the entire 
health care spectrum--can continue to practice, and see those 
patients, and keep the doors open.
    I will give you one quick example. I had a patient with 
severe eczema, which typically is something that we treat on a 
very common daily basis, itchy red rash over the body. I can 
get that better pretty quickly. This patient, a young law 
student, an SMU law student, ended up in the ICU in the 
hospital with total body erythroderma. Just picture a full-body 
burn. The reason she ended up in the hospital, a 21-year-old 
law student, highly-functioning, bright young lady ended up in 
the hospital because of the fact that the insurance company 
would not prescribe her the biologic medication that would get 
her clear in two to three doses because they wanted her to--a 
cream for a rash that covers 80 percent of her body.
    Ms. VAN DUYNE. That is crazy.
    Dr. DESAI. She was in the hospital in the ICU, almost died, 
and now is recovering from that. So----
    Ms. VAN DUYNE. Thank you for sharing that.
    Dr. DESAI. Thank you.
    Ms. VAN DUYNE. You know, we have heard many of the 
Democrats that have labeled private equity as a villain, and I 
have heard from a significant number of physicians that they 
are starting to look into private equity as an investment so 
they don't have to consolidate. What are the positive impacts 
of private equity investment in medical practices?
    Dr. DESAI. I think when we talk about competition, I think 
competition is a good thing. I think access is a good thing. I 
think when you have only one or two players in town, if you 
will, that is a problem.
    We, everyone in this room, is a patient at some point in 
their life. We want to be able to pick the doctor that we like, 
that we believe in their credentials, that we connect with, 
that we can have a rapport with. If you have only got two to 
choose from, that is going to limit your options. And I think, 
when we encourage competition broadly in the best interests of 
the highest quality patient care, that is where we need to 
land.
    Ms. VAN DUYNE. And you are saying private equity is 
something that actually helps increase the competition within 
those markets, as opposed to decrease?
    Dr. DESAI. Well, and I think I would frame it in the way 
that private--not all private equity is bad. Not every academic 
medical center is great. Not every hospital system is great. I 
think we can't label a one-size-fits-all approach. I think we 
have to be open minded to make sure, hey, if you are a doctor 
in this practice model and you can deliver exceptional care, 
then you are doing a great job.
    Ms. VAN DUYNE. Excellent.
    Thank you, and I yield back.
    Chairman BUCHANAN. Mr. Estes, you are recognized.
    Mr. ESTES. Well, thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you for 
allowing me to waive on to the Health Subcommittee, which I am 
not currently a member of.
    And thank you to all the witnesses who spent a lot of your 
time today talking about issues that are important to you, but 
also important to us. I want to particularly welcome Dr. 
Richardson to our committee who is from Wichita, and I have 
been to their facility there, and I appreciate the opportunity 
to see, you know, the day-to-day activities.
    You know, as you noted, Dr. Richardson, your practice 
doesn't just serve patients in Wichita, but across the State of 
Kansas and into Oklahoma. And also, you know, across the 
country, physicians like you are serving rural Americans, 
providing quality health care to parts of our country that are 
too small to support specialists on their own.
    Unfortunately, we are seeing the bureaucratic red tape, 
lower reimbursement rates, rising prices are all weighing 
heavily on your independent physician practices. And we are 
seeing those private practices close or consolidate as a 
result.
    Mr. Chairman, I have a letter that Dr. Wenstrup gave me 
from a primary care physician who talked about being an 
independent physician versus being a hospital employee, and I 
would like to submit that for the record.
    Chairman BUCHANAN. Without objection.
    [The information follows:]
    [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] T6472A.054
    
    Mr. ESTES. Thank you.
    You know, as I have spoken with patients and physicians and 
support staff throughout Kansas, consolidating or closing 
practices is not helping Kansans receive more or better-quality 
care. With fewer and fewer doctors and nurses in private 
practice, patients are seeing increased costs and, in some 
cases, worse outcomes.
    The Kellogg School of Management notes that prices increase 
14 percent when a private practice is acquired by a hospital, 
and a National Opinion Research Center survey found that 45 
percent of physicians report deteriorating patient-provider 
relationships after consolidation. These increased costs and 
diminished outcomes are not the recipe for a healthy society, 
and our committee must prioritize solutions that preserve the 
vital role of private practices.
    Dr. Richardson, I am especially intrigued by your practice 
because you have been able to stay independent while serving 
more than a million patients throughout rural parts of our 
state. In your testimony you highlighted the fact that Wichita 
Urology has managed to remain independent, in part because of 
the shortage of urologists in Kansas. Unfortunately, urology is 
far from the only specialty with a physician shortage in 
Kansas, which, as you know, often impacts, most importantly, 
the rural parts of our state.
    Can you elaborate on how your private practice is still 
open to serve these rural areas, and how that is not often an 
option for physician groups that have been acquired?
    Dr. RICHARDSON. Yes, thank you. Thank you for being here, 
and nice to see you.
    Yes, we are not unique in the specialty in our area that 
does these outreach clinics. Gastroenterology, cardiology, 
rheumatology, a lot of the specialists do the same outreach 
clinics throughout rural Kansas because they know it is needed, 
because they know that those patients can't drive three to four 
hours, and those patients don't often have any specialists in 
those areas.
    Speaking on consolidation, there is a hospital system that 
does own specialists that do no outreach, right? So that is--
that is the picture of consolidation in our area. The 
independent physicians are reaching out doing telemedicine, 
driving, having clinics at these rural communities to reach 
those rural patients while the consolidated hospital system is 
not. They are allowing those patients to drive.
    You also mentioned the increased cost of running a medical 
practice, the inflation. It is that reason only that we have 
considered consolidating ourselves back to Wichita, and taking 
our staff out of those outreach clinics. It is not because we 
don't enjoy seeing those patients in the rural areas. It is not 
because those rural patients don't need it. It is because we 
almost can't afford it with the difficulty in hiring new 
nurses, new MAs, the increased cost of running health care. We 
have talked about, just from a financial standpoint, 
consolidating. And like I said, we haven't had the heart to do 
it, and I hope we won't, and I don't think we will. But that is 
the only reason we have even had that conversation.
    Mr. ESTES. Yes, I thank you for that. I know we have much 
more importance around--the folks that live in Wichita or other 
urban areas don't realize and take--I mean, they take health 
care for granted because you may have 10 or 20 specialists 10 
or 20 minutes away that you can actually interact with. It is 
not necessarily the case in rural areas.
    You also mentioned about site-neutral payments, and they 
don't necessarily equalize. Can you provide further details on 
how policies could be managed without necessarily reducing 
payments to hospitals?
    Dr. RICHARDSON. Yes, like I said in my opening statement, I 
don't think the right thing is to just decrease payments to 
hospitals. That doesn't necessarily help physician practices 
stay in business. It doesn't help access, it doesn't help the 
patients. But I do think that it is an unfair, unlevel playing 
field. Right now we are competing with those systems for the 
same providers, the same doctors, the same nurses, the same 
MAs, which makes it difficult for us to run an independent 
practice.
    So I think site neutrality is, if not the most important, 
one of the top two important things of keeping independent 
physicians in practice. We are simply just competing against 
someone that we can't beat. And so I think a more reasonable 
solution would be to modestly have a decrease in the HOPD 
payment and a modest increase in the physician. Knowing that is 
asking to just decrease payments for hospitals. That doesn't 
help our practice to stay in business, that doesn't help us 
serve patients, and it certainly doesn't help increase access.
    Mr. ESTES. Well, thank you, and thank you to all the 
panelists.
    Again, I yield back, Mr. Chairman.
    Chairman BUCHANAN. Thank you.
    I would like to submit a letter in the record from a doctor 
in my community.
    [The information follows:]
    GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
    
    Chairman BUCHANAN. Let me just kind of give you one easy 
one, but I need to get kind of your thoughts and ideas on this 
because we are going to wrap up, we are just about done.
    Tort reform. I am from Florida. We have a lot of frivolous 
lawsuits, a lot of lawsuits, and I am curious about how that 
impacts your business--one, from premiums and two is just from 
defensive medicine. I don't know how you can measure that, but 
I think it is something that probably can be measured, where 
people do procedures or things because they just want to be 
careful or be sure about that.
    The other thing is I can just tell you in our area we have 
a lot of doctors, in their late 50s, early 60s, that have made 
good money, surgeons and others, and they want to hang onto it, 
and they are worried about practicing out there. If something 
goes wrong, someone is going to take their net worth. And so it 
is a big, big issue in Florida.
    But Doctor, why don't we start with you, and we will just 
run through here real quick? This is going to be the wrap-up 
question.
    Dr. GHOLSON. Thank you for the question.
    In Mississippi we had state-level tort reform in the early 
2000s, which made a huge impact on our ability to continue to 
practice medicine. For family medicine in particular, it did 
decrease the number of family medicine physicians who did OB, 
and we are actually seeing the consequences of that now.
    But I do know, for family medicine doctors who want to do 
OB, the price of malpractice is still an issue. It is still 
overtly high.
    Chairman BUCHANAN. Yes.
    Dr. Richardson.
    Dr. RICHARDSON. So tort reform is never going to be turned 
down by physicians, and it is a very important thing to 
discuss, and I think it is a very good thing. It is very 
specific, or it is very specialty-specific and very state 
specific. There are some specialties where tort reform is 
absolutely crucial to allow them to stay in business and 
continue to work until they are 65. In some specialties, it is 
not as crucial.
    I think it pales in comparison to moving the needle 
compared to site neutrality and physician fee updates. But it 
is certainly an important thing to address, especially in some 
specialties in states.
    Chairman BUCHANAN. Yes, and I do know every state is 
different. I put that--50 states, you all look at this a little 
bit differently.
    Ms. Kean.
    Ms. KEAN. Yes. We in Texas passed tort reform a little over 
20 years ago. And it--I can tell you, it just, you know, 
firsthand, it absolutely impacted the malpractice rates our 
physicians were paying. It decreased it substantially.
    Texas is a very friendly state for physicians. We see a lot 
of physicians that want to come there because of tort reform. 
They feel like, you know, they won't lose, you know, everything 
that they have worked so hard for if something terrible 
happens. And so I would absolutely look to Texas to see how 
they did that, because it is working very well for us.
    Chairman BUCHANAN. Yes, I have heard good things about 
Texas.
    Dr. Desai.
    Ms. KEAN. It is working.
    Dr. DESAI. Mr. Chairman, thanks for this important question 
and topic.
    I will quote you a statistic. I read a study by the AMA 
that said in 2022 over 30 percent of physicians reported being 
sued. That is a staggering number, and that is exactly, to your 
point, why there is so much concern from physicians to even go 
into medicine or to continue practicing and doing procedures 
that are well within their scope of practice, but out of fear 
that they could be sued, potentially by anyone, depending on 
their state legislation.
    At the American Academy of Dermatology Association, we 
certainly support broad, Federal medical liability system 
reform, but we have got to put in common-sense limits into 
these medical liability regulations. Thank you.
    Chairman BUCHANAN. Doctor Jha.
    Dr. JHA. Yes, very briefly, I am going to largely echo what 
Dr. Richardson said. I mean, this is an important issue. I 
think there is good evidence that the malpractice system in our 
country leads to over-utilization of certain types of testing. 
The defensive medicine we talked about, the data on that, I 
think, is quite clear.
    There has been progress at the state level. There are 
certain specialties that are still at risk. It is one part of 
the bigger picture we have been talking about today, which is 
how do we keep independent physicians in check. We have got to 
deal with all of the other stuff: site-neutrality, Medicare 
Advantage, physician fee schedule updates. If we do all of that 
and make this a part of that solution, I do think we can get to 
a better place.
    Chairman BUCHANAN. I think part of the reason that they go 
after--in our state, again--the doctors is because they have a 
reputation to protect, and they know that. And I think for some 
of them, they take advantage of it. But I am glad to see what 
Texas and some of the other stuff has done. Now, everybody 
should have their day in court, in a sense. But my point is we 
need to take a look at stuff that is frivolous.
    But I want to thank all of you. I think it has been very 
productive. I think our members are excited about the input we 
have gotten. As someone mentioned earlier, you are all busy, 
all successful people. We really do appreciate you coming up, 
and you do have a big--you do make a big difference. Thank you, 
and have a great day.
    [Pause.]
    Chairman BUCHANAN. Again, let me just add one thing. I 
would like to thank our witnesses for appearing before us 
today.
    Please be advised that members have two weeks to submit 
written questions to the witnesses--with answers later in 
writing. Those questions and your answers will be made part of 
the formal hearing record.
    With that, the subcommittee stands adjourned.
    [Whereupon, at 11:21 a.m., the subcommittee was adjourned.]      

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