[House Hearing, 118 Congress]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]


2024

                   AMERICAN CONFIDENCE IN ELECTIONS:
                      PREVENTING NONCITIZEN VOTING
                     AND OTHER FOREIGN INTERFERENCE

=======================================================================

                                HEARING

                               BEFORE THE

                           COMMITTEE ON HOUSE
                             ADMINISTRATION

                        HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

                    ONE HUNDRED EIGHTEENTH CONGRESS

                             SECOND SESSION
                               __________

                              MAY 16, 2024
                               __________

      Printed for the use of the Committee on House Administration
      
      
                  [GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]      


                             www.govinfo.gov
                           www.cha.house.gov
                               __________

                    U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE
                    
56-237                     WASHINGTON : 2024                             
                           
                           
                           
                   COMMITTEE ON HOUSE ADMINISTRATION

                    BRYAN STEIL, Wisconsin, Chairman

BARRY LOUDERMILK, Georgia            JOSEPH MORELLE, New York,
H. MORGAN GRIFFITH, Virginia              Ranking Member
GREG MURPHY, North Carolina          TERRI A. SEWELL, Alabama
STEPHANIE BICE, Oklahoma             NORMA TORRES, California
MIKE CAREY, Ohio                     DEREK KILMER, Washington
ANTHONY D'ESPOSITO, New York
LAUREL LEE, Florida

                      Mike Platt,  Staff Director 
                 Jamie Fleet,  Minority Staff Director 

                         C  O  N  T  E  N  T  S

                              ----------                              
                                                                   Page

                           Opening Statements

Chairman of the Committee on House Administration Bryan Steil, 
  Representative from the State of Wisconsin.....................     1
    Prepared statement of Chairman Bryan Steil...................     3
Ranking Member of the Subcommittee on House Administration Joseph 
  Morelle, Representative from the State of New York.............     4
    Prepared statement of Ranking Member Joseph Morelle..........     6

                               Witnesses

Cord Byrd, Florida Secretary of State............................     7
    Prepared statement of Cord Byrd..............................    10
Hans von Spakovsky, manager, Election Law Reform Initiative, and 
  senior legal fellow, Edwin Meese III Center for Legal and 
  Judicial Studies, the Heritage Foundation......................    12
    Prepared statement of Hans von Spakovsky.....................    14
J. Christian Adams, president and general counsel, Public 
  Interest Legal Foundation......................................    23
    Prepared statement of J. Christian Adams.....................    25
Caitlin Sutherland, executive director, Americans for Public 
  Trust..........................................................    33
    Prepared statement of Caitlin Sutherland.....................    35
Michael Waldman, president and CEO, Brennan Center for Justice at 
  NYU law school.................................................    40
    Prepared statement of Michael Waldman........................    42

                       Submissions for the Record

Reuters article..................................................    59
Project 2025 document............................................    74
People United for Privacy report.................................   967
The Hill article.................................................   979
Leadership Conference on Civil and Human Rights and the 
  Declaration for American Democracy Coalition letter............   995
Washington Post article..........................................  1000
Votebeat article.................................................  1002
NBC article......................................................  1021
Law and Crime article............................................  1034

 
                   AMERICAN CONFIDENCE IN ELECTIONS:
                      PREVENTING NONCITIZEN VOTING
                     AND OTHER FOREIGN INTERFERENCE

                              ----------                              


                              May 16, 2024

                 Committee on House Administration,
                                  House of Representatives,
                                                    Washington, DC.
    The Committee met, pursuant to notice, at 10:17 a.m., in 
room 1310, Longworth House Office Building, Hon. Bryan Steil 
[Chairman of the Committee] presiding.
    Present: Representatives Steil, Loudermilk, Murphy, Bice, 
Carey, Lee, Morelle, Sewell, Torres, and Kilmer.
    Staff present: March Bell, General Counsel and 
Parliamentarian; Jackie Bossman, Counsel; Annemarie Cake, 
Deputy Clerk and Professional Staff; Alexander Deise, Counsel; 
Kristen Monterroso, Director of Operations and Legislative 
Clerk; Michael Platt, Staff Director; Jordan Wilson, Director 
of Member Services; Khalil Abboud, Minority Deputy Staff 
Director; Jamie Fleet, Minority Staff Director; Nicole Hansen, 
Minority Elections Counsel; Sarah Nasta, Minority Senior 
Advisor and Director; Owen Reilly, Minority Professional Staff; 
and Sean Wright, Minority Chief Counsel.

    OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. BRYAN STEIL, CHAIRMAN OF THE 
 COMMITTEE ON HOUSE ADMINISTRATION, A U.S. REPRESENTATIVE FROM 
                           WISCONSIN

    Chairman Steil. The Committee on House Administration will 
come to order. I note that a quorum is present.
    Without objection, the chair may declare a recess at any 
time. Also, without objection, the hearing record will remain 
open for 5 legislative days so Members may submit any material 
they wish to be included therein.
    Thank you, Ranking Member Morelle, Members of the 
Committee, and our witnesses for participating in today's 
hearing.
    The U.S. Constitution protects the rights of citizens of 
the United States to vote in our elections. In fact, Federal 
law makes it a felony for noncitizens to vote in Federal 
elections.
    Most but not all States outlawed noncitizen voting in their 
elections. American elections are for American citizens, and we 
intend to keep it that way.
    Recently, we have seen Democratic-run cities allowing 
noncitizens to vote in local elections. Washington, D.C., New 
York, Maryland, California, and others have passed legislation 
to allow noncitizens to vote in elections.
    This causes a host of problems for a State to maintain 
clean voter registration lists. Let me explain.
    The National Voter Registration Act was enacted to help 
increase the number of eligible American citizens that are 
registered to vote. By giving applicants voter registration 
forms when getting a driver's license, more individuals are 
likely to register.
    However, noncitizens here legally are entitled to Federal, 
State benefits, including driver's licenses. That means, in 
some circumstances, noncitizens also receive these same voter 
registration forms.
    My concern is that the interpretation of the NVRA makes it 
difficult for States to maintain clean voter lists. We should 
be giving States tools to ensure their voter rolls are clean as 
we approach November's election.
    Yet jurisdictions allowing noncitizens to vote, like 
Washington, D.C., are only required to keep one voter list. 
Maintaining one clean list, with U.S. citizens and noncitizen 
voters, presents challenges.
    Let us take a look at examples of these challenges where 
NVRA was misinterpreted in Pennsylvania and in Ohio. In 2022, 
the Public Interest Legal Foundation found Pennsylvania had 
allowed noncitizens to register to vote for decades.
    Pennsylvania later publicly admitted that, due to an 
alleged programming glitch, that the Pennsylvania Department of 
Transportation had allowed noncitizens to register to vote.
    Last week, Ohio's secretary of State, Frank LaRose, ordered 
the State's voter rolls to be cleaned after a review found more 
than a hundred noncitizens in Ohio were registered to vote. 
These examples raise serious concerns.
    In D.C., the Board of Elections says it is on the 
noncitizen to understand they cannot vote in Federal elections. 
Right now, in our Nation's Capital, roughly 500 noncitizens are 
already registered to vote.
    Let me be clear. Noncitizen voting reduces confidence in 
our elections.
    Washington, D.C., is setting a new standard that could soon 
be applied across the country. We must stop noncitizen voting. 
That is why our Committee passed my bill, the American 
Confidence in Elections Act.
    One section of the bill allows States to access Federal 
data bases that contain citizenship information so noncitizens 
can be removed from the voter rolls.
    As we continue to see foreign actors interested in 
influencing our elections, our current practices should cause 
us all concern.
    Since President Biden took office, over 7 million illegal 
immigrants have crossed the Southern Border. We must ensure our 
elections are secure and running properly without foreign 
influence.
    Yet, last month, Washington, D.C., mailed this--last month, 
Washington, D.C., mailed this postcard across the city, 
encouraging noncitizens to vote.
    In response, I sent a letter to the D.C. Board of Elections 
about the postcard. The D.C. Board is actively hosting virtual 
town halls encouraging noncitizens to vote.
    To vote in local elections in our Nation's Capital, you 
only need to reside here for 30 days. That means any noncitizen 
who moves to D.C. by October 5th can vote in this November's 
election.
    If any of the 7 million migrants moved to D.C. by this 
October, they can vote in the upcoming election. In our 
Nation's Capital, they do not even need a photo identification 
to do it. This does not instill confidence in our elections.
    The Committee on House Administration has broad oversight 
of our Nation's Federal elections, including here in our 
Nation's Capital. We have passed a bill to require citizenship 
to vote in D.C. elections.
    Republicans on this Committee are committed to ending 
noncitizen voting.
    We will also discuss the role foreign nationals play in our 
elections by contributing to nonprofits. Federal law prohibits 
foreign nationals from contributing to campaigns. However, we 
have seen foreign nationals use a loophole to get around this.
    Yesterday I introduced legislation to close that loophole. 
When our Committee heard from all six commissioners on the 
Federal Election Commission last year, Democrats and 
Republicans alike, every Commissioner agreed that this loophole 
should be closed, and I am hopeful that we can all agree that 
only American citizens should be contributing and voting in our 
elections.
    I would like to thank our witnesses for joining us today to 
discuss these important topics.
    With that, I yield to the Ranking Member for 5 minutes for 
his opening remarks.
    [The prepared statement of Chairman Steil follows:]

   PREPARED STATEMENT OF CHAIRMAN OF THE COMMITTEE ON HOUSE 
                   ADMINISTRATION BRYAN STEIL

    The U.S. Constitution protects the rights of citizens of 
the United States to vote in our elections. In fact, Federal 
law makes it a felony for noncitizens to vote in Federal 
elections.
    Most but not all States outlawed noncitizen voting in their 
elections. American elections are for American citizens, and we 
intend to keep it that way.
    Recently, we have seen Democratic-run cities allowing 
noncitizens to vote in local elections. Washington, D.C., New 
York, Maryland, California, and others have passed legislation 
to allow noncitizens to vote in elections.
    This causes a host of problems for a State to maintain 
clean voter registration lists. Let me explain.
    The National Voter Registration Act was enacted to help 
increase the number of eligible American citizens that are 
registered to vote. By giving applicants voter registration 
forms when getting a driver's license, more individuals are 
likely to register.
    However, noncitizens here legally are entitled to Federal, 
State benefits, including driver's licenses. That means, in 
some circumstances, noncitizens also receive these same voter 
registration forms.
    My concern is that the interpretation of the NVRA makes it 
difficult for States to maintain clean voter lists. We should 
be giving States tools to ensure their voter rolls are clean as 
we approach November's election.
    Yet jurisdictions allowing noncitizens to vote, like 
Washington, D.C., are only required to keep one voter list. 
Maintaining one clean list, with U.S. citizens and noncitizen 
voters, presents challenges.
    Let us take a look at examples of these challenges where 
NVRA was misinterpreted in Pennsylvania and in Ohio. In 2022, 
the Public Interest Legal Foundation found Pennsylvania had 
allowed noncitizens to register to vote for decades.
    Pennsylvania later publicly admitted that, due to an 
alleged programming glitch, that the Pennsylvania Department of 
Transportation had allowed noncitizens to register to vote.
    Last week, Ohio's secretary of State, Frank LaRose, ordered 
the State's voter rolls to be cleaned after a review found more 
than a hundred noncitizens in Ohio were registered to vote. 
These examples raise serious concerns.
    In D.C., the Board of Elections says it is on the 
noncitizen to understand they cannot vote in Federal elections. 
Right now, in our Nation's Capital, roughly 500 noncitizens are 
already registered to vote.
    Let me be clear. Noncitizen voting reduces confidence in 
our elections.
    Washington, D.C., is setting a new standard that could soon 
be applied across the country. We must stop noncitizen voting. 
That is why our Committee passed my bill, the American 
Confidence in Elections Act.
    One section of the bill allows States to access Federal 
data bases that contain citizenship information so noncitizens 
can be removed from the voter rolls.
    As we continue to see foreign actors interested in 
influencing our elections, our current practices should cause 
us all concern.
    Since President Biden took office, over 7 million illegal 
immigrants have crossed the Southern Border. We must ensure our 
elections are secure and running properly without foreign 
influence.
    Yet, last month, Washington, D.C., mailed this--last month, 
Washington, D.C., mailed this postcard across the city, 
encouraging noncitizens to vote.
    In response, I sent a letter to the D.C. Board of Elections 
about the postcard. The D.C. Board is actively hosting virtual 
town halls encouraging noncitizens to vote.
    To vote in local elections in our Nation's Capital, you 
only need to reside here for 30 days. That means any noncitizen 
who moves to D.C. by October 5th can vote in this November's 
election.
    If any of the 7 million migrants moved to D.C. by this 
October, they can vote in the upcoming election. In our 
Nation's Capital, they do not even need a photo identification 
to do it. This does not instill confidence in our elections.
    The Committee on House Administration has broad oversight 
of our Nation's Federal elections, including here in our 
Nation's Capital. We have passed a bill to require citizenship 
to vote in D.C. elections.
    Republicans on this Committee are committed to ending 
noncitizen voting.
    We will also discuss the role foreign nationals play in our 
elections by contributing to nonprofits. Federal law prohibits 
foreign nationals from contributing to campaigns. However, we 
have seen foreign nationals use a loophole to get around this.
    Yesterday I introduced legislation to close that loophole. 
When our Committee heard from all six commissioners on the 
Federal Election Commission last year, Democrats and 
Republicans alike, every Commissioner agreed that this loophole 
should be closed, and I am hopeful that we can all agree that 
only American citizens should be contributing and voting in our 
elections.

OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. JOSEPH MORELLE, RANKING MEMBER OF THE 
 COMMITTEE ON HOUSE ADMINISTRATION, A U.S. REPRESENTATIVE FROM 
                            NEW YORK

    Mr. Morelle. Good morning. Thank you, Chairman Steil.
    Thank you to each of our witnesses for being here this 
morning.
    Donald Trump's unprecedented attempt to stop the peaceful 
transfer of power is an appalling stain on American history, 
but it appears the lessons Republicans learned from the fiasco 
that the former President caused in 2020 was not ``Don't steal 
an election''; it was ``Just start earlier.''
    For all else being said here today, here's the one takeaway 
that you should remember, that we should be all very clear-eyed 
about: MAGA extremists are laying the ground work to overturn 
the 2024 election, to betray, once again, the will of the 
American people.
    Today's hearing is not actually about noncitizens illegally 
voting in Federal elections. Even the Conservative Cato 
Institute acknowledges this is not a problem.
    What does Speaker Johnson have to say on the subject? Just 
last week, he declared that he knows intuitively that a lot of 
noncitizens are voting in Federal elections, but it has not 
been something that is easily provable. Not provable, because 
there is no proof.
    The Washington Post has it right: Republicans have 
increasingly acknowledged that their claims are all about the 
vibes.
    Republicans are not governing based on facts. Frankly, they 
are not governing at all, and it's an embarrassment. This 
hearing is about preemptively covering Donald Trump's lies.
    The hearing is not about law and order. It is about laying 
the foundation for the next big lie. It is about saying that 
illegal voting is the cause of an election defeat.
    We know this is untrue because we know the law is already 
clear. I will read from 18 U.S.C. 611. Quote: ``It shall be 
unlawful for any alien to vote in any election held solely or 
in part for the purpose of electing a candidate for the office 
of President, Vice President, Presidential elector, Member of 
the Senate, Member of the House of Representatives,'' end 
quote, or other Federal offices.
    I will say it again: It is unlawful for noncitizens to vote 
in Federal elections. A violation of this law is punishable by 
up to a year in prison followed by deportation.
    Additionally, 52 U.S. Code 20511 makes, quote, ``The 
procurement or submission of voter registration applications 
that are known by the person to be materially false, 
fictitious, or fraudulent,'' end quote, a felony, which, by the 
way, would result from a 5-year prison term and subsequent 
deportation.
    These laws are already on the books, and these laws work. 
That is why Speaker Johnson had to publicly admit he has no 
proof of fraud. Republicans know they work. My majority 
colleagues know in their heart of hearts, that American 
elections are secure, fair, and free. They know this truth.
    Look at the parade of former Trump administration officials 
who, when put under oath, when facing penalty of perjury by 
Congress or other law enforcement officials, confirmed that 
their claims about fraud in the 2020 election were false, 
confirmed that President Trump lied to--and by the way, 
continues to lie every day to the American people. This is the 
public record.
    MAGA Republicans are howling about this nonissue, not 
because they believe American elections are insecure, but 
because they are desperate to destroy American confidence in 
elections.
    They want Americans to be afraid. They want Americans to 
believe Donald Trump's inevitable excuses, his torrent of lies 
about fraud when he, once again, leads the Republican Party 
down a path of insurrection.
    It is unconscionable that the same cast of characters that 
tried to steal an election 4 years ago are preparing to do it 
again and are using this Committee, using this hearing to begin 
that process.
    The coup starts here. This is where it begins. When the 
history of Donald Trump's attempt to steal the 2024 election is 
written, and I assure you--I assure you--history will look 
closely at each of us.
    The Speaker's trip to Mar-a-Lago last month will stand out. 
The Speaker's press conference on the Capitol steps last week 
will stand out. This hearing today will stand out.
    It is profoundly disappointing that my Republican 
colleagues are comfortable with that. I certainly am not.
    With that, I yield back.
    [The prepared statement of Ranking Member Morelle follows:]

PREPARED STATEMENT OF RANKING MEMBER OF THE COMMITTEE ON HOUSE 
                 ADMINISTRATION JOSEPH MORELLE

    Donald Trump's unprecedented attempt to stop the peaceful 
transfer of power is an appalling stain on American history, 
but it appears the lessons Republicans learned from the fiasco 
that the former President caused in 2020 was not ``Don't steal 
an election''; it was ``Just start earlier.''
    For all else being said here today, here's the one takeaway 
that you should remember, that we should be all very clear-eyed 
about: MAGA extremists are laying the ground work to overturn 
the 2024 election, to betray, once again, the will of the 
American people.
    Today's hearing is not actually about noncitizens illegally 
voting in Federal elections. Even the Conservative Cato 
Institute acknowledges this is not a problem.
    What does Speaker Johnson have to say on the subject? Just 
last week, he declared that he knows intuitively that a lot of 
noncitizens are voting in Federal elections, but it has not 
been something that is easily provable. Not provable, because 
there is no proof.
    The Washington Post has it right: Republicans have 
increasingly acknowledged that their claims are all about the 
vibes.
    Republicans are not governing based on facts. Frankly, they 
are not governing at all, and it is an embarrassment. This 
hearing is about preemptively covering Donald Trump's lies.
    The hearing is not about law and order. It is about laying 
the foundation for the next big lie. It is about saying that 
illegal voting is the cause of an election defeat.
    We know this is untrue because we know the law is already 
clear. I will read from 18 U.S.C. 611. Quote: ``It shall be 
unlawful for any alien to vote in any election held solely or 
in part for the purpose of electing a candidate for the office 
of President, Vice President, Presidential elector, Member of 
the Senate, Member of the House of Representatives,'' end 
quote, or other Federal offices.
    I will say it again: It is unlawful for noncitizens to vote 
in Federal elections. A violation of this law is punishable by 
up to a year in prison followed by deportation.
    Additionally, 52 U.S. Code 20511 makes, quote, ``The 
procurement or submission of voter registration applications 
that are known by the person to be materially false, 
fictitious, or fraudulent,'' end quote, a felony, which, by the 
way, would result from a 5-year prison term and subsequent 
deportation.
    These laws are already on the books, and these laws work. 
That is why Speaker Johnson had to publicly admit he has no 
proof of fraud. Republicans know they work. My majority 
colleagues know in their heart of hearts, that American 
elections are secure, fair, and free. They know this truth.
    Look at the parade of former Trump administration officials 
who, when put under oath, when facing penalty of perjury by 
Congress or other law enforcement officials, confirmed that 
their claims about fraud in the 2020 election were false, 
confirmed that President Trump lied to--and by the way, 
continues to lie every day to the American people. This is the 
public record.
    MAGA Republicans are howling about this nonissue, not 
because they believe American elections are insecure, but 
because they are desperate to destroy American confidence in 
elections.
    They want Americans to be afraid. They want Americans to 
believe Donald Trump's inevitable excuses, his torrent of lies 
about fraud when he, once again, leads the Republican Party 
down a path of insurrection.
    It is unconscionable that the same cast of characters that 
tried to steal an election 4 years ago are preparing to do it 
again and are using this Committee, using this hearing to begin 
that process.
    The coup starts here. This is where it begins. When the 
history of Donald Trump's attempt to steal the 2024 election is 
written, and I assure you--I assure you--history will look 
closely at each of us.
    The Speaker's trip to Mar-a-Lago last month will stand out. 
The Speaker's press conference on the Capitol steps last week 
will stand out. This hearing today will stand out.
    It is profoundly disappointing that my Republican 
colleagues are comfortable with that. I certainly am not.

    Chairman Steil. The gentleman yields back.
    Without objection, all other Members' opening statements 
will be made part of the hearing record if they are submitted 
to the Committee clerk by 5 p.m. today.
    Today we have a one-witness (sic) panel. We welcome 
Secretary Cord Byrd, Mr. Hans von Spakovsky, Mr. Christian 
Adams, Ms. Caitlin Sutherland, and Mr. Michael Waldman.
    Our first witness, Secretary Cord Byrd, serves as Florida's 
37th secretary of State. Prior to serving as secretary, Mr. 
Byrd served in the Florida State legislature, serving on the 
Public Integrity and Elections Committee, serving 2 years as 
vice chairman.
    Our next witness, Hans von Spakovsky, is a senior fellow at 
The Heritage Foundation. As the manager of the think tank's 
Election Law Reform Initiative, Mr. von Spakovsky studies 
campaign finance restriction, voter fraud, voter ID, 
enforcement of voting-rights laws, administration of elections, 
and voting-equipment standards.
    Our next witness, J. Christian Adams, the president and 
general counsel of the Public Interest Legal Foundation, a 
public interest law firm. His firm is responsible for ensuring 
States have clean voter rolls and holding them accountable 
under the National Voter Registration Act.
    Our next witness, Caitlin Sutherland, is the executive 
director for Americans for Public Trust. Americans for Public 
Trust has been at the forefront of reporting on foreign 
influence in U.S. elections.
    Our last witness, Mr. Michael Waldman, is president and CEO 
of the Brennan Center for Justice at the NYU School of Law.
    We appreciate you being with us today and look forward to 
each of your testimony.
    Pursuant to paragraph B of Committee rule 6, the witnesses 
will please stand and raise their right hands.
    [Witnesses sworn.]
    Chairman Steil. We appreciate you all being with us today 
and look forward to your testimony. A reminder that we have 
read your written statements and they'll appear in full in the 
Committee record.
    Under Committee rule 9, you are to limit your presentation 
to 5 minutes. I will now recognize Secretary Cord Byrd for 5 
minutes.

STATEMENTS OF HON. CORD BYRD, FLORIDA SECRETARY OF STATE; HANS 
  VON SPAKOVSKY, MANAGER, ELECTION LAW REFORM INITIATIVE, AND 
   SENIOR LEGAL FELLOW, EDWIN MEESE III CENTER FOR LEGAL AND 
JUDICIAL STUDIES, THE HERITAGE FOUNDATION; J. CHRISTIAN ADAMS, 
     PRESIDENT AND GENERAL COUNSEL, PUBLIC INTEREST LEGAL 
 FOUNDATION; CAITLIN SUTHERLAND, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, AMERICANS 
   FOR PUBLIC TRUST; AND MICHAEL WALDMAN, PRESIDENT AND CEO, 
         BRENNAN CENTER FOR JUSTICE AT NYU LAW SCHOOL.

                  STATEMENT OF HON. CORD BYRD

    Mr. Byrd. Good morning, Chairman Steil, Ranking Member 
Morelle, and Members of the Committee. Thank you for the 
opportunity to be here today.
    To begin, the United States Constitution provides that 
State legislatures prescribe the time, place, and manner of 
holding Federal elections. Florida law states that, quote, ``A 
person may become a registered voter only if that person is a 
citizen of the United States.''
    In 2020, Floridians amended the State Constitution to make 
clear that, quote, ``only a citizen of the United States shall 
be eligible to vote.''
    Florida has approximately 13.5 million active registered 
voters, and that number changes every minute of every day. A 
person turns 18. A person passes away. Or a person becomes a 
U.S. citizen and registers to vote for the first time.
    According to U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services, 
94,100 Floridians became naturalized U.S. citizens in 2023. The 
Federal Government has plenary authority over who becomes a 
naturalized citizen.
    The challenge States face is that there is not a Federal, 
legal-status data base that is current and reliable. The 
National Voter Registration Act, NVRA, of 1993, commonly known 
as the motor voter law, introduced national procedures for 
voter registration.
    It mandates that any person who applies for a driver's 
license may, if eligible, submit a voter registration 
application for Federal elections. When potential voters fill 
out a voter registration form, they must swear or affirm that 
they are a U.S. citizen.
    In Florida, it is a third-degree felony to falsely claim 
U.S. citizenship when registering to vote.
    Remarkably, however, Federal courts have interpreted the 
NVRA to prohibit States from requiring proof of citizenship at 
the time a person registers. In effect, Federal law forces the 
States to use the honor system.
    This is unacceptable. Because States are prevented from 
verifying citizenship on the front end, they must do so on the 
back end. Clean voter rolls become even more for necessary for 
ensuring clean elections.
    Florida has robust voter roll maintenance procedures to 
identify registered voters who are not U.S. citizens. The names 
of potential noncitizens who attempt to obtain or renew a 
driver's license are reported to the Florida Department of 
State, which then conducts a manual, case-by-case investigation 
to determine whether the person has registered to vote and to 
confirm whether the person is, in fact, a U.S. citizen.
    Once the investigation is complete and if the Department 
determines that the person is registered but is not a citizen, 
the person cannot be removed from the voter roll without due 
process as provided by Florida law.
    Florida cannot verify the citizenship status of persons in 
the United States without the assistance and cooperation of the 
Federal Government. Indeed, the Federal Government is the only 
source of accurate, up-to-date information on the citizenship 
status of such persons.
    In 2012, after filing a law against the United States 
Department of Homeland Security, Florida became one of the 
first States to receive access to DHS' Systematic Alien 
Verification from Entitlement program, otherwise known as the 
SAVE data base, for purpose of voter registration.
    Florida relies on this data base to verify a person's 
citizenship status, but to be frank, the SAVE data base is 
woefully inadequate. It is neither time-nor cost-efficient and 
it requires an alien registration number, which States 
occasionally do not possess, to access the information.
    Perhaps most importantly, the data base often lacks the 
most current information, which requires further time-consuming 
investigation.
    Indeed, because of the lack of timely information, States 
are sometimes unable to verify a person's citizenship status. 
That too is unacceptable.
    The Federal Government has a legal obligation to provide 
up-to-date citizenship information to the States. I urge 
Congress to address these deficiencies, which unfortunately can 
leave a gap in the States' abilities to maintain clean voter 
rolls.
    At the very least, the Federal Government should provide 
immediate notification when a resident of the State is 
naturalized. DHS should also provide local election officials 
access to the SAVE data base.
    Despite conducting a fair, honest, and efficient election 
in 2020, Florida did not rest on its laurels. In three 
successive legislative sessions, the Florida legislature passed 
substantial election-integrity legislation.
    In 2022, for example, Governor Ron DeSantis signed a law, 
creating the Office of Election Crimes and Security.
    This office conducts preliminary investigations into 
allegations of elections law violations or other election 
irregularities. OECS has referred noncitizen-voting cases to 
law enforcement for further investigation.
    In 2004, the Baker-Carter report, prepared by former 
President James Carter and former Secretary of State James 
Baker, stated that, quote, ``Fraud in any degree and in any 
circumstance is subversive to the electoral process,'' and 
that, quote, ``the best way to maintain ballot integrity is to 
investigate all credible allegations of election fraud and 
otherwise prevent fraud before it can affect an election.''
    Voter fraud includes voting by noncitizens in Federal 
elections. Every illegitimate vote of a noncitizen negates the 
legitimate vote of a citizen.
    In 2000, only 537 votes in Florida determined the outcome 
of the Presidential race. Floridians have changed our State's 
constitution. We have strengthened our laws. We have engaged in 
legislation, and we have an office dedicated to investigating 
election crimes.
    The only impediment to doing more is the Federal 
Government. That is why States need action from our 
congressional leaders so we can fulfill our constitutional 
duties under the law.
    [The prepared statement of Mr. Byrd follows:]

              PREPARED STATEMENT OF HON. CORD BYRD

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    Chairman Steil. The gentleman yields back. Thank you very 
much.
    Our next witness, Hans von Spakovsky is recognized for 5 
minutes.

                STATEMENT OF HANS VON SPAKOVSKY

    Mr. von Spakovsky. Protecting the ability of American 
citizens to participate in our democratic process is one of the 
most important duties of Congress. That requires that ensuring 
that aliens, both those here legally and illegally, are not 
unlawfully registering and voting, spending money to support or 
oppose candidates in State referenda, or distorting and 
diluting representation of citizens by being included in 
apportionment and redistricting.
    We know that aliens are registering and actually voting. 
Although we do not know the extent of the problem since the 
vast majority of States are not verifying citizenship. The 
indicators that it is occurring are there, and it is important 
to understand that every vote by an alien voids the vote of a 
citizen.
    To verify the accuracy of voter registration data, State 
election officials should be given complete and easy access to 
the SAVE system that Secretary Byrd mentioned but also to the 
E-Verify system.
    Federal courts obtain their lists of potential jurors from 
State election officials. When someone is not a U.S. citizen, 
they are excused from jury duty, yet the Federal courts are not 
forwarding that information back to secretaries of State so 
they can take appropriate action.
    Congress needs to amend the NVRA to clarify that the NVRA 
does not prohibit States from requiring applicants to provide 
proof they are U.S. citizens.
    Congress, also, because of its constitutional authority 
over aliens, could make that a requirement for Federal 
elections.
    The Federal Government requires individuals to provide such 
proof in order to be employed, and the right to work and earn a 
living is just as important as the right to vote.
    Barring States from requiring proof of citizenship makes no 
sense, particularly when the Federal Government requires that 
in order to be employed.
    The Federal application for naturalization form asks 
whether an alien has, quote, ``ever registered to vote or voted 
in any Federal, State, or local election in the United 
States.''
    When an alien answers ``yes,'' DHS just sits on that 
information. Federal law needs to be changed to require DHS, 
when they get a ``yes'' answer, to forward that information to 
the State election official where that alien registered or 
voted, to the State attorney general, and to the U.S. 
Department of Justice so that State election officials can take 
that individual off the rolls and State and Federal prosecutors 
can investigate and prosecute.
    Federal campaign finance law prohibits Federal--governments 
and aliens from participating in elections for candidates for 
office, but the definition of ``elections'' in the Federal 
Election Campaign Act does not include ballot referenda, 
according to the U.S. Supreme Court. According to FEC, it also 
does include recall elections.
    That is a change that needs to be made in the law to keep 
foreign influence out of our elections.
    Reapportionment after the 2020 Census gave additional seats 
to some States and reduced the number of seats held by seven. 
Six States got more seats. Seven States had their 
representatives reduced.
    That reapportionment was based on the total population of 
the U.S., which includes all aliens whether they are here 
legally or illegally, even though they are not allowed to 
participate in our democratic political process.
    In addition to distorting representation in the House, it 
distorts our Presidential election because, of course, 
reapportionment determines how many electoral votes someone 
has.
    How bad is the distortion? A 2015 report by the 
congressional Research Service estimated that apportionment 
based on citizen population would give additional seats to 
seven States and reduce the numbers of seats in four States.
    Given the unprecedented influx of aliens into this country 
in the last number of years, that distortion is obviously much 
worse today.
    We should provide both access and security in the election 
process for all eligible U.S. citizens. Allowing aliens to 
participate in the election process unfairly dilutes the votes 
of all citizens regardless of their race or which political 
party they affiliate with.
    Congress and the States need to take steps to stop this 
from happening. Thank you.
    [The prepared statement of Mr. von Spakovsky follows:]

            PREPARED STATEMENT OF HANS VON SPAKOVSKY

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    Chairman Steil. Thank you. The gentleman yields back.
    Mr. Christian Adams is recognized for 5 minutes.

                STATEMENT OF J. CHRISTIAN ADAMS

    Mr. Adams. Thank you, Chairman Steil, Ranking Member 
Morelle, Members of the Committee. Thank you for the invitation 
to testify.
    In this polarized atmosphere, it would be wonderful if we 
could agree on a few basic facts. Noncitizens are, in fact, 
getting onto American voter rolls, and some of them are voting.
    The data show that most often noncitizens are getting on 
the rolls through the motor voter process or third-party 
registration drives. Ignoring this problem ignores the harmful 
impacts to both our elections but also to the aliens who are 
caught in the system breakdown.
    Because they have registered to vote, often at the behest 
of third parties or bureaucrats, these well-meaning green card 
holders face deportation.
    When a foreigner registers to vote in the motor voter 
system, as undeniably happened by the thousands in 
Pennsylvania, every American should be concerned. Once upon a 
time, fixing this problem would have been a bipartisan 
priority.
    We have identified four core elements that lead to 
foreigners registering and voting. No. 1, a faulty, motor voter 
system facilitates alien registration and then voting. We 
discovered this most dramatically in Pennsylvania in 2017 where 
every PennDOT customer was offered voter registration for an 
estimated two decades regardless of citizenship.
    Even worse, foreign-language customers were screened in 
different written languages than the ones they speak. That 
increase the number of foreign voter registrations.
    Element two, when States do not or are prevented from 
investigating prior claims of noncitizenship, foreign nationals 
fill the rolls. In previous years, States like Florida and 
Texas, have been disrupted by the courts from trying to study 
indications of foreign citizenship among existing registrants.
    Element three, when election officials do not carefully 
review forms, foreigners get registered. The Federal form that 
Congress approved 30 years ago requires an attestation of U.S. 
citizenship via a checkbox. After 30 years of motor voter, we 
can conclusively say the checkbox honor system has failed.
    Unfortunately, my organization has found, in California, 
Florida, Texas, Virginia, Pennsylvania, New Jersey, and other 
States, where applicants actually admitted on the registration 
form they were not U.S. citizens and still got registered to 
vote. We call these checkbox noes.
    Litigation that the Public Interest Legal Foundation has 
brought has revealed disturbing numbers of the checkbox noes, 
registrations across the country where they tell the election 
official they are not a citizen, and they still get registered 
to vote.
    Election officials are dropping the ball.
    Finally, element four, a lack of transparency. Secrecy 
preserves bad practices and fosters conspiratorial concerns. 
When people do not know the truth, they think things up that 
are not true, and that is why States have to comply with 
section 8 of NVRA and disclose public records.
    In 2024, it is no longer an open question whether foreign 
nationals are registering and voting. Anyone who would try to 
argue otherwise has not read the data. We have documented the 
problems.
    We have documented the Middle Eastern immigrant whose green 
card was revoked in Pennsylvania after PennDOT offered him 
registration in an unfamiliar language. He lost 7 years of his 
life trying to clear his name until Pennsylvania admitted to a 
mass glitch in the motor voter system.
    We have documented the Sudanese refugee in Pittsburgh who 
was given an English voter registration form at a time when he 
needed an interpreter.
    We found records of a San Francisco college student whose 
coursework was disrupted because he mistook a Federal voter 
drive for a campus election.
    This is just a tiny sample of the stacks of documents that 
we have available of victims, aliens who are in the green card 
process, who have been sucked into the motor voter system, 
registered to vote, and jeopardized their legal status in the 
United States.
    People are registering through a broken motor voter system. 
They are victims to this broken system, and Congress can fix it 
through a few basic simple fixes.
    Thank you very much.
    [The prepared statement of Mr. Adams follows:]

            PREPARED STATEMENT OF J. CHRISTIAN ADAMS

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    Chairman Steil. Thank you very much. The gentleman yields 
back.
    Ms. Caitlin Sutherland is recognized for 5 minutes.

                STATEMENT OF CAITLIN SUTHERLAND

    Ms. Sutherland. Chairman Steil, Ranking Member Morelle, and 
Members of the Committee, thank you for the invitation and 
opportunity to testify before you today. My name is Caitlin 
Sutherland, and I am the executive director of Americans for 
Public Trust, a nonprofit, nonpartisan organization dedicated 
to restoring trust in government by holding politicians and 
political groups accountable.
    Since our founding in 2020, APT has devoted extensive 
resources to uncovering, mapping, and publicizing outside money 
and influence in politics and policy.
    Americans should have every confidence that their elections 
are free from foreign interference and influence, but 
unfortunately a significant source of foreign cash is flowing 
into politics from a Swiss billionaire named Hansjorg Wyss.
    Multiple press outlets have confirmed Mr. Wyss is a foreign 
national, but do not just take their word for it. Listen to 
what Mr. Wyss has said about the matter.
    In 2011, Mr. Wyss told a Swiss newspaper that he, quote, 
``never felt the need to become an American,'' end quote. He 
claimed he found the process too, quote, ``complicated,'' end 
quote, and instead preferred to call himself, quote, ``a 
spiritual dual citizen,'' end quote.
    Despite Mr. Wyss' disinterest in becoming an American 
citizen, he made it a personal goal to influence American 
politics. According to a biography written by his own sister, 
Mr. Wyss' goal is to, quote, ``reinterpret the American 
Constitution in the light of progressive politics,'' end quote.
    How is Mr. Wyss, who is not a U.S. citizen and therefore 
prohibited from directly and indirectly influencing our 
elections, doing just that?
    Well, first, in the 1990's and early aughts, he, seemingly 
illegally, gave more than $100,000 directly to candidates and 
committees. Mr. Wyss' direct giving pales in comparison to his 
current and preferred method of influencing our politics: his 
nonprofits.
    Mr. Wyss uses his two nonprofits, the Wyss Foundation, a 
501(c)(3), and the Berger Action Fund, formerly called the Wyss 
Action Fund, a 501(c)(4), to fund liberal groups across the 
Nation. He has used these two nonprofits to pump almost half a 
billion dollars in the U.S. political system.
    In his biography, Mr. Wyss' sister explicitly detailed his 
ability to, quote, ``exert an influence on American domestic 
politics through his foundations,'' end quote.
    If this sounds like a staggering amount of money from a 
reclusive foreign billionaire and organizations that are far 
from being household names, that is because it is all by 
design.
    Again, while speaking to foreign media, Mr. Wyss admitted 
that he was fighting laws in Arizona that, quote, ``give police 
too many rights,'' end quote, working to nominate progressive 
Federal judges, and funding abortion clinics.
    The catch, he also bragged that his, quote, ``name never 
appears,'' end quote, linked to his efforts.
    In fact, the Associated Press described Berger Action Fund 
as, quote, ``a nondescript name for a group with a rather 
specific purpose: steering the wealth of Hansjorg Wyss, a Swiss 
billionaire, into the world of American politics and policy.''
    How exactly in his own words does he exert an influence? 
According to The New York Times, Mr. Wyss', quote, ``political 
activism is channeled through a daisy chain of opaque 
organizations that mask the ultimate recipients of his money.'' 
The most opaque of those organizations is a little known group 
called the Sixteen Thirty Fund, which, according to Bloomberg, 
serves as, quote, ``a clearinghouse for the left,'' end quote, 
and has also received $243 million from Mr. Wyss.
    Sixteen Thirty Fund bankrolls efforts to elevate President 
Biden's agenda, fund Supreme Court nomination fights, invest in 
massive, voter-turnout operations, engages in issue-advocacy 
campaigns against vulnerable Republican Senators and 
Representatives, and has funneled nearly $100 million and 
counting into State ballot issues across 25 States.
    That is right: The same group that has received around a 
quarter of a billion dollars from a foreign national turns 
around and spends it on Geo TV, voter registration, super PACs, 
and ballot issues.
    These foreign influence loopholes must be closed. Foreign 
nationals are already barred from donating to candidates 
directly. Why should all these vehicles that influence our 
elections be any different?
    American elections should be for American citizens. 
Stopping foreign nationals, whether they be a reclusive Swiss 
billionaire or a Communist dictator, from funding U.S. policy 
fights is a simple step to take.
    In his 1796 farewell address, George Washington cautioned 
that, quote, ``Foreign influence is one of the most baneful 
foes of republican government,'' end quote. Over 200 years 
later, that sentiment remains true. Thank you.
    [The prepared statement of Ms. Sutherland follows:]

            PREPARED STATEMENT OF CAITLIN SUTHERLAND

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    Chairman Steil. Thank you. The gentlewoman yields back.
    Mr. Michael Walden is recognized for 5 minutes for an 
opening statement.

                  STATEMENT OF MICHAEL WALDMAN

    Mr. Waldman. Mr. Chairman, Ranking Member Morelle, Members 
of the Committee, Americans are concerned about the health of 
our democracy and rightly so.
    Ever since our Nation was founded in the Declaration of 
Independence on the idea that government is legitimate only 
when it rests on the consent of the governed, we have 
struggled, over decades and centuries, to live up to that 
ideal, to make sure that our ability to have self-government 
extends to all eligible Americans.
    All of us, whatever our views, should care and fight for 
elections that are free and fair and secure.
    In the sweep of American history, the rise of the election-
denier movement is extremely disturbing. Never before has there 
been an organized political force determined and devoted to 
undermining public trust in our system and in our elections in 
this manner.
    Now, in 2020, we heard wild stories of voting machines 
flipping votes, of boxes of ballots, of ballot paper that 
supposedly had bamboo fibers in it to prove it came from China.
    This year, we are hearing the beginning of wild stories 
about widespread, huge numbers of noncitizens voting in Federal 
elections. Let us be clear: This is an urban myth. It is a 
conspiracy theory. It is not true.
    Why is it happening now? It is being pushed preemptively, I 
believe, to set the stage for undermining the legitimacy of the 
2024 election. This year, the big lie is being predeployed.
    It is the basis for the SAVE Act and what we believe is an 
unnecessary and misguided piece of legislation.
    As we have heard, it is illegal today for noncitizens to 
vote in Federal elections--very illegal. States have a 
multiplicity of procedures in place to detect and prevent it. 
As a result, noncitizen voting in Federal elections is 
vanishingly rare.
    Now, this legislation would essentially require citizens, 
eligible voters, to produce a birth certificate or a passport, 
or a naturalization papers in some instances, to vote. These 
are documents that many millions of Americans do not have--
eligible voters, citizens do not have.
    Now, Speaker Mike Johnson, as we have heard, said recently 
on the Capitol steps that we all know that intuitively this all 
must be happening, as he said, quote, ``but it has not been 
something that is easily provable.''
    In fact, it is easily disprovable. Any individual who 
illegally registers or votes in a Federal election leaves a 
paper trail. They are handing the evidence of their crime over 
to the government.
    There is--these records are publicly available to all for 
scrutiny, and as I said, governments have ample opportunity to 
find, detect, and prevent this kind of action.
    There are real problems in our electoral system--challenges 
to our elections, disinformation and deepfakes driven by AI, 
racially motivated voter suppression, a broken campaign finance 
system, gerrymandering by both political parties.
    Congress should act to address these and other real 
challenges. We urge the Congress to enact the Freedom to Vote 
Act and the John Lewis Voting Rights Act. Together they would 
modernize our elections, set national standards, address 
gerrymandering and dark money and funds from outside the 
country, and restore the full strength of the Nation's most 
effective civil rights law.
    At the very least, we urge Congress to act, on a bipartisan 
basis, as it has before, to provide funds for election 
officials to do the very work of securing election integrity 
and securing accurate lists, voter rolls, and running these 
elections in upcoming appropriations, as has been in the case 
in previous years.
    We can do this. We can bolster election integrity while 
ensuring free and fair elections. We can do this if we rely on 
facts--not fear--facts, not, quote, intuition.
    Congress has done this before. It should do it again, and 
we urge you to reject measures that would undermine faith in 
our system and disenfranchise many eligible voters, and instead 
come together for reforms that would improve our system and 
continue our march toward that system envisioned by the 
Constitution and the Declaration of Independence.
    Thank you.
    [The prepared statement of Mr. Waldman follows:]

             PREPARED STATEMENT OF MICHAEL WALDMAN

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    Chairman Steil. Thank you. The gentleman yields back.
    I will begin our questions today, followed by the Ranking 
Member. We will then alternate between parties. I recognize 
myself for 5 minutes for the purpose of asking our witnesses 
questions.
    Mr. Christian Adams, I want to start with you. Federal law 
makes it a felony for noncitizens to vote in Federal elections. 
Is that correct?
    Mr. Adams. It is.
    Chairman Steil. Federal law also makes it a felony to 
submit a voter form with false info, like citizenship, correct?
    Mr. Adams. Correct.
    Chairman Steil. Under the NVRA, National Voter Registration 
Act, States are required to provide voter-registration 
materials at various State offices, including those providing 
public assistance, right?
    Mr. Adams. Yes, it has one, but it is limited, the burden 
on the States, but----
    Chairman Steil. OK. How does the NVRA deal with the 
situation when noncitizens receive public benefits like 
driver's licenses? Do they get voter-registration materials?
    Mr. Adams. Well, some States have started to cram in voter-
registration materials with those public-benefit applications 
which are going to citizens and noncitizens alike.
    Chairman Steil. OK. With that background then, the 
situation in Pennsylvania, what did your organization learn 
about the voter rolls when you brought the lawsuit in 
Pennsylvania?
    Mr. Adams. Yes, this is a disaster what happened in 
Pennsylvania that has not gotten enough attention. Steve Dinan 
of The Washington Times has written about it.
    Pennsylvania was registering noncitizens for 20 years, and 
they admit it. This is not subject to debate. The question is, 
was it 10,000 or 100,000?
    Chairman Steil. That needs to be fixed immediately in 
Pennsylvania, correct?
    Mr. Adams. Well, we are suing to see what they did to fix 
it, and we are in the Third Circuit Court of Appeals. We have 
already won summary judgment to get the records of the fix, but 
Pennsylvania's playing keep away.
    Chairman Steil. Thank you for that.
    Let me shift to you, Mr. Hans von Spakovsky if I can. Ohio 
recently announced that they did a review and found a hundred 
noncitizens on their voter rolls. Is that accurate?
    Mr. von Spakovsky. Yes.
    Chairman Steil. Then, sticking with the topic of noncitizen 
voting, is not it true that, this November, noncitizens that 
reside in D.C. for simply 30 days can vote in D.C. municipal 
elections?
    Mr. von Spakovsky. That is correct.
    Chairman Steil. D.C. also mails every registered voter a 
ballot, correct?
    Mr. Adams. Correct.
    Chairman Steil. You are telling me that, in Washington, 
D.C., if there is even a small clerical mistake, noncitizens 
could be mailed a ballot with Federal races on them?
    Mr. von Spakovsky. That is correct.
    Chairman Steil. We have heard and we know it is a felony 
for noncitizens to vote in Federal races, but the D.C. Board of 
Elections held a call a few weeks ago, encouraging noncitizens 
to vote in municipal elections and told the public it was on 
the noncitizen to understand they cannot vote in the Federal 
election, correct?
    Mr. von Spakovsky. That is correct.
    Chairman Steil. Then I want to go back, because we heard 
from one of our other witnesses that noncitizen voting is a 
myth, that there is no evidence of this. Was there a case where 
there was a close election in the House of Representatives, and 
Congress went back and studied whether or not noncitizens 
actually pertook in that election or not?
    Mr. von Spakovsky. There was, and, in fact, I brought the 
report. This is the House Oversight Committee report from 1998, 
and it was the investigation of the race between--between Bob 
Dornan and Loretta Sanchez. Margin of victory, 979 votes.
    Because the INS refused to give the Committee records, they 
had to subpoena them, and when they compared the INS records to 
the Orange County Register, they found clear and convincing 
evidence that 624 aliens had registered and voted. They found 
circumstantial evidence of 196 aliens who had registered and 
voted. That is 820----
    Chairman Steil. What did they have to do to be able to 
cross-check that?
    Mr. von Spakovsky. They had to check--take the INS records 
and check it against the voter registration records.
    Chairman Steil. Is this done in every election?
    Mr. von Spakovsky. No, it is not done--it is not done at 
all.
    Chairman Steil. Well, we were told there was a paper trail. 
We were told by another witness that there was a paper trail. 
You are telling me that this paper trail only came because 
Congress subpoenaed the records in this case?
    Mr. von Spakovsky. That is exactly right, and that is why, 
as Secretary Byrd said, secretary of State need to be given 
access to DHS records.
    Chairman Steil. Secretary Byrd, if you were concerned--you 
run solid elections in the State of Florida--but if you were 
concerned that this was taking place, would you have the access 
that Congress had in the review of the 1998 election?
    Mr. Byrd. We do not have that access in a timely and 
efficient manner.
    Chairman Steil. Would you like the access to that?
    Mr. Byrd. Absolutely.
    Chairman Steil. It would make total sense to be able--we 
were told that there is a paper trail--to allow you to go and 
to review whether or not this is taking place, because as Hans 
von Spakovsky just said, that, in the case where it was 
reviewed, over 600 individuals were found to be noncitizens who 
voted in that election. Is that correct?
    I will come back to you, Hans von Spakovsky, on that.
    Mr. von Spakovsky. It is, and it is against the law. I am 
not aware that the U.S. Department of Justice investigated or 
prosecuted a single one of those aliens who voted.
    I have personal experience with this also. I was on the 
Fairfax County Board of Elections, and in 2011, I asked the 
General Registrar, ``Do you all check the DMV records to see 
whether individuals who show up to get a driver's license''--
you know, here legally but they are aliens--``do you check to 
see whether they've registered to vote.''
    He said, ``Well, no, we do not do that.'' I said, ``You 
need to do that.''
    They checked; they found 278 individuals--this is just one 
county in Virginia--who were aliens. They investigated; they 
confirmed they were aliens. 117 of them had voted in prior 
elections.
    We took the 278 off the rolls, forwarded it to both the 
local Commonwealth attorney because it is against the law in 
Virginia. He did nothing about it.
    Chairman Steil. The way that you are describing this sounds 
a lot like, to me, that somebody's saying that there is nobody 
speeding on the interState. I would say, ``Well, how do you 
know then?'' They'd say, ``Well, it is very clear; the speed 
limit is 70 miles per hour, so we know no one is going over 70 
miles an hour, and the evidence of that is there are no 
speeding tickets that have ever been issued,'' where if you 
actually went and reviewed this, as was done in this case, what 
we found was this is an actual and substantive problem, 
exacerbated by the fact that places like Washington, D.C., are 
allowing noncitizens to vote in municipal elections, do not 
have proper controls to prevent them from voting in Federal 
elections.
    Then, as we look--a staffer on my Committee walked by this 
ballot box in Washington, D.C., unlocked, unsecured. Does this 
increase confidence in elections in your opinion, Mr. von 
Spakovsky?
    Mr. von Spakovsky. No. It implements a huge risk that 
something could happen to those ballots. It could be stuffed 
with ballots. Ballots could be stolen. I mean----
    Chairman Steil. If Washington, D.C., Board of Elections, if 
this is how they are operating their ballot box collection less 
than 1 mile from where we sit right here, it gives me great 
pause that there are not any clerical errors occurring as to 
when they have noncitizens on the voting rolls in Washington, 
D.C., being in a position to vote for Federal elections.
    That should cause grave concern, which is why noncitizens 
should not be voting in our elections, period, and it shows, 
from the evidence here, is exactly why we should actually be 
reviewing and enforcing the law as it relates to noncitizens 
voting in our Federal elections.
    Let me shift gears before I am done, quickly, to you, Ms. 
Sutherland, on a slightly different topic about foreign funds 
in U.S. elections.
    Today, under current law, can foreign nationals pay for 
activities like voter registration, ballot-harvesting, and get-
out-the-vote activities.
    Ms. Sutherland. Yes.
    Chairman Steil. That is really concerning. We already saw 
the massive problems associated with Zuckerbucks in the 2020 
election. We have held hearings on it here and flushed out 
those concerns. Congress needs to close that loophole.
    Now, does not Federal law generally prohibit foreign 
nationals from directly or indirectly spending money in U.S. 
elections?
    Ms. Sutherland. That is correct.
    Chairman Steil. As your organization has documented, 
foreign nationals are using nonprofits as a pass-through to 
give to, often Democratic, super PACs. Is that correct?
    Ms. Sutherland. That is correct.
    Chairman Steil. Can you explain that problem briefly?
    Ms. Sutherland. Absolutely. foreign nationals are 
prohibited from contributing to super PACs directly, but there 
is nothing prohibiting a foreign national from contributing to 
a 501(c)(4) that then turns around and gives to a super PAC.
    In fact, in 2020, we saw that the Sixteen Thirty Fund, that 
received tens of millions of dollars from a foreign national, 
turned around and contributed $60 million to a pro-Biden super 
PAC.
    Chairman Steil. Exactly the problem. When we had the FEC 
Commissioners in here, Democrats and Republicans alike, all 
agreed that we should close that loophole.
    I have introduced legislation to do just that, Preventing 
Foreign Interference in American Elections Act. I would love to 
see a full vote in favor by all 12 Members of this Committee.
    I think it is essential, as we are looking at foreign 
interference in our elections, that we come together to close 
that loophole that you just identified, that every FEC 
Commissioner that testified before us said should also be 
closed.
    This should be a no-brainer, and I hope to have that done 
before this November's election.
    I thank all of you for being here today. I yield back, and 
I will now recognize the Ranking Member for 5 minutes for 
questions.
    Mr. Morelle. Thank you, Mr. Chair. I think this Committee 
has already acted on that bill, I thought unanimously. I could 
be mistaken, but I would be happy to work with you on it. I 
think that is an important thing that we should work on.
    I do ask for unanimous consent to enter into the record an 
article published this morning by Reuters entitled ``Trump 
Allies Laying the Ground Work to Contest Potential Election 
Loss,'' which reports that Trump and his allies are laying--
planting seeds of doubt about the election, including the 
introduction of this bill. I will ask for unanimous consent----
    Chairman Steil. Without objection. Without objection.
    [The Reuters article referred to follows:]

[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
    
    Mr. Morelle [continuing]. to include that in the record.
    I said in my opening statement, and I will make clear 
again, everyone watching should be clear. This hearing is not a 
serious effort to stop noncitizens from voting, which does not 
happen and is already illegal, as I think everyone has 
testified.
    We know it again because of what the Speaker said. He 
admitted they have no evidence. Even what is being talked about 
here, he did not suggest that as evidence during his press 
conference.
    He said we actually intuitively know it. I think--I think 
others would agree--there is an effort to help the former 
President capture the Presidency.
    We should be clear about what a Trump Presidency would 
bring to this country. To do so, we need to look no further 
than Project 2025, which is an extremist 920-page manifesto, 
embraced by the Trump campaign, to reshape the Federal 
Government into an arch-Conservative Christian nationalist 
autocracy.
    Project 2025, organized by The Heritage Foundation, calls 
on a second Trump administration to massively expand the power 
of the Presidency and the power of the government over 
Americans' daily lives, and it outlines how a future Trump 
Department of Justice will prevent women nationwide from 
accessing healthcare, including access to abortion.
    In fact, Donald Ayer, a Republican Deputy Attorney General 
of the United States under George H.W. Bush, said that Project 
2025 is full of, quote, ``ideas that are designed to let Donald 
Trump function as a dictator. He really wants to destroy any 
notion of the rule of law in this country and is now preparing 
to do a bunch of things totally contrary to the basic values we 
have always lived by. If Trump were to be elected and implement 
some of the ideas he is apparently considering, no one in this 
country would be safe.''
    That is a Republican former Deputy Attorney General of the 
United States.
    How does this all tie in to today's hearing? Well, the 
majority has called one of the leading architects of Project 
2025 to testify on behalf of their bill. I really have to give 
you credit for saying the quiet part out loud.
    My majority colleagues are not even trying to hide what 
they intend to do. They invited the architects of a day one 
dictator plan to this hearing, and I think it shows how extreme 
and undemocratic the entire exercise is, and the American 
public deserve a full transparency about what the Trump 
campaign is planning, what the majority witness and his 
organization is planning.
    I would like to, with unanimous consent, introduce for the 
record ``Mandate for Leadership, the Conservative Promise, 
Project 2025,'' into the record.
    Chairman Steil. Without objection.
    [Project 2025 follows:]

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    Mr. Morelle. Mr. Waldman, let me ask you, are you familiar 
with Project 2025?
    Mr. Waldman. I am.
    Mr. Morelle. If this hearing is meant to help Donald Trump 
contest the outcome of the 2024 election--and it most certainly 
is--then plans like this Project 2025 and Conservative 
activists, like those called by the majority, are preparing to 
assist Donald Trump's administration implement catastrophic 
policies that Americans fundamentally oppose.
    By your estimation, how would Project 2025 damage American 
democracy and the rule of law?
    Mr. Waldman. Well, Project 2025 lays out, in audacious 
detail, a blueprint for an expansion of Presidential power 
unlike any we have seen in our history. It is not just a policy 
agenda for Conservative policies on taxes or the environment.
    It would fundamentally reshape checks and balances in the 
constitutional system. It would give a blueprint for the 
President taking control of the Justice Department and the FBI, 
for the President taking control of independent agencies.
    It would encouple with other agendas, such as schedule F, 
which would involve the purging of the Federal workforce of 
many civil servants to be replaced by political loyalists or 
the use of the Insurrection Act as a basis either for crackdown 
on opposition or as a basis for very aggressive seizing of 
noncitizens, and as articulated by former President Trump, a 
whole host of things, all taken together, would change the 
nature of American Government to something very different from 
what the Founders intended or what any of us would be 
comfortable with.
    Mr. Morelle. You know, the unsubstantiated fearmongering 
about insecure elections, voter fraud, that we heard in the 
days, weeks, and months leading up to the January 6th deadly 
attacks on the Capitol, you know, we have heard this before, 
and I wonder--again, Mr. Waldman, if you want to comment--do 
you see any parallels between this effort now to suggest that 
there is rampant fraud in Federal elections as a pretext for 
2024?
    Mr. Waldman. It is not a mistake that it is happening now. 
It is, as I said, the big lie is being predeployed. In 2020, 
the election deniers were improvisational and somewhat 
slapdash.
    Now it is very well organized, and it is very well funded, 
and it is thought out well in advance to try to set the stage 
for challenging the legitimacy of elections.
    As we know, Donald Trump in 2016 said that he had really 
won the popular vote if you could deduct the millions of 
noncitizens who voted, he said. These were, evidently, 
invisible people because nobody ever saw them, and there was 
never any proof. That was an election he won.
    He did the same thing with other charges in 2020, and it is 
important to note too, that this myth of widespread, tens of 
thousands, hundreds of thousands, of noncitizen voters, was 
deployed in 2020 as well. Rudy Giuliani lost his law license in 
part because of his lies about noncitizen voting in Arizona--
lies, I should note, that were repeated by President Trump on 
the Ellipse as he sent the crowd up to the Capitol.
    This was not the central argument then, but it is now.
    Mr. Morelle. Very good. Thank you.
    I thank you for giving me the extra time, Mr. Chair. I 
yield back.
    Chairman Steil. The gentleman yields back.
    Mrs. Bice is recognized for 5 minutes.
    Mrs. Bice. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. First, I want to 
address a comment that was made prior, in opening statements, 
to Mr. Waldman.
    You mentioned that you felt like there were not massive 
numbers of illegals voting, and this should not be a focus. I 
think with more than 7 million illegals crossing into the 
United States in the last 3 or plus years, it is our duty that 
we ensure that we are protecting the integrity of the election 
system. That is why we are here today, is to ensure that that 
does not happen.
    Yes, we have identified--Mr. Adams has identified--areas 
where this is occurring, but to suggest that we should not be 
focused on this because it is not happening now, I think, is 
misguided.
    Mr. von Spakovsky, in jurisdictions that allow noncitizens, 
like Washington, D.C., to vote, will noncitizens be on the same 
voter-registration lists as citizens?
    Mr. von Spakovsky. As far as I know, they will be. If I 
could just quickly mention, the only requirement is to be a 
resident for 30 days. That means the Ambassador from Russia, a 
tyrannical regime trying to obliterate Ukraine, could easily 
register and vote in that election.
    Mrs. Bice. Should Federal law require these jurisdictions 
to have two separate lists and two separate ballots to ensure 
that this type of situation does not happen?
    Mr. von Spakovsky. Yes, they should. Otherwise, aliens may 
be voting, even when they should not be, in Federal elections.
    Mrs. Bice. Can you talk a little bit about the proposal 
that you have been championing which requires Federal district 
courts to transmit the names of dismissed noncitizen jurors to 
the State's chief election officials?
    Mr. von Spakovsky. Sure. In 2005, I think it is, GAO 
actually did a study on this. They were looking at information 
that might help--be helpful to State election officials.
    They surveyed a number of Federal district courts, and one 
Federal district court said, well, I think it was a 2-year 
period, about 3 percent of the individuals been called for jury 
duty had been excused because they were not U.S. citizens.
    Remember, you have to swear under oath, when you are 
answering questions like that.
    Obviously, that information should have been sent back to 
State election officials because those district courts also all 
confirmed, where were they getting their list of potential 
voters in places like Atlanta and Arizona? From the State 
election officials.
    Clearly, these were all individual aliens who were 
registered to vote, excused from Federal jury duty, yet the 
information was not getting back to election officials.
    Mrs. Bice. I want to pivot back just briefly with Ms. 
Sutherland's discussion on foreign interference in our 
elections through these (c)(4) organizations, and I want to 
enter into the record--I ask unanimous consent to enter a 
report from the People United for Privacy on the impacts of 
foreign donor reporting schemes.
    Chairman Steil. Without objection.
    [People United for Privacy report follows:]

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    Mrs. Bice. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    Mr. Adams, I want to move over to you. The National Voter 
Registration Act exempted two States from requirements for 
registration. Can you tell us a little bit about that process?
    Mr. Adams. Sure. I have had the pleasure, I guess, of 
reading the congressional Record from 1993, and one of the 
issues was an exemption. There were seven States at the time--
Maine has since been unexempted--but the seven States--New 
Hampshire, Wisconsin, Minnesota, Idaho, Wyoming, and North 
Dakota--were exempted from the NVRA originally because they 
have same-day registration. They had same-day registration. 
North Dakota does not even have voter registration. They were 
exempted.
    We actually brought a lawsuit in Minnesota and Wisconsin in 
the last week to question that as an unequal sovereignty issue, 
that we are trying to get public records, because you cannot 
get public records in Wisconsin, especially from WEC and--not 
easily at least. We are trying to get public records in 
Wisconsin and challenging that exemption.
    Mrs. Bice. If Congress were to amend the Voter Registration 
Act, as some are thinking about doing, how would it work in 
these States that are exempt?
    Mr. Adams. Right. I think Congress should strongly consider 
ending the exemption because these States are already doing the 
motor voter registration generally, right. They are complying 
with what the Democrats wanted in 1993, but they are not 
complying with the Dole compromise of 1993, which was to make 
them subject to public inspection and to have clean voter 
rolls.
    Those six States are exempted from the clean voter roll 
obligation that I think Congress should seriously take a look 
at.
    Mrs. Bice. I think the big issue that I have is, as we are 
looking at this holistically, is that the voter rolls are not 
being cleaned up, which is causing some of the issues that we 
are seeing, and certainly, we need to be addressing that.
    With that, Mr. Chairman, my time is about up. I yield back.
    Chairman Steil. The gentlewoman yields back.
    Ms. Sewell is recognized for 5 minutes.
    Ms. Sewell. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
    I want to thank all of our witnesses for being here.
    As the author of the John Robert Lewis Voting Rights 
Advancement Act and as the Ranking Member of the Election 
Subcommittee, there is nothing more important to me than making 
sure that every eligible American has a right to vote and equal 
access to the ballot box.
    Having said that, it is quite disturbing to me to listen to 
some of the allegations that are going on but, more 
importantly, the concerted, intentional effort, as you said, 
Mr. Waldman, to actually well-fund efforts to subvert the will 
of the people for the 2024 election.
    I know that in Alabama, where I am from, there is this 
belief that there is widespread fraud, and I know that the 
Brennan Center has done multiple studies about the fact that 
that is rare.
    You, in fact, said that the incidence of non-Americans 
voting--I do not like to say illegal aliens--just non-Americans 
voting is miniscule and rare, yet other witnesses have 
suggested that it happens in Virginia, and it happens in 
Florida. I wanted to know what your rebuttal is to that.
    Mr. Waldman. Over the decades, there have been billions of 
votes cast by Americans, and, overwhelmingly, our system is 
secure. As the Department of Homeland Security, Donald Trump's 
own Department of Homeland Security, said in 2020, it was the 
most secure election in American history.
    There is a multiplicity of systems in place that have been 
developed over the years to ensure that noncitizens are not 
voting in Federal elections, to ensure that only eligible 
citizens are.
    Unfortunately, we continue to see, over and over again, 
proposals that would make it harder for eligible citizens to 
vote. I will note that----
    Ms. Sewell. Especially after the Shelby v. Holder decision 
where we saw a flood of States making it harder for people to 
vote, Americans to vote.
    Mr. Waldman. We have now new evidence compiled by political 
scientists at the Brennan Center from a dataset of a billion 
voter records, nearly a billion voter records, that the States 
that used to be covered by the strong Voting Rights Act----
    Ms. Sewell. Like Alabama.
    Mr. Waldman. Alabama and other States before Shelby County 
in 2013 have seen a much wider growth in the gap between voter 
participation rates by White voters and non-White voters, which 
suggests the impact of that decision.
    Ms. Sewell. Let us talk about the SAVE Act that is 
currently being discussed. I personally think that it is trying 
to delegitimize votes by those who are of color, whether that 
is Black, Latino, Asian, Native American, let alone to allow 
them to cast a vote.
    Can you talk a little bit about the SAVE Act and why you 
think that this is so destructive?
    Mr. Waldman. Well, you are exactly right. We all should be 
making sure that our voter rolls are secure and accurate and 
that only eligible people can vote.
    Ms. Sewell. To be clear, all of us want to make it easier 
to vote and harder to cheat. Don't we all?
    Mr. Waldman. We all do, among many other things.
    The ERIC system, where States compared voter rolls, was the 
most effective way to assure accurate rolls, and other 
conspiracy theories and other scare stories prompted States to 
pull out of that, actually setting back the cause of election 
security.
    When you look at the proposal for documentary proof of 
citizenship, which sounds like a kind of an anodyne idea, 
again, what that means in practice is a certified birth 
certificate or a passport or maybe naturalization papers, and 
many millions of Americans just do not have that.
    We did a study in 2006 and, at that point, found it was 13 
million Americans. When you think about not only that people do 
not have these--most Americans--or at least about half 
Americans do not have a passport. They are not summering to the 
south of France.
    Ms. Sewell. You know, my State, along with a lot of other 
States, imposed photo ID laws, and they prescribed in their 
State laws which photos are acceptable and which are not. I 
found it to be appalling that my State refused to take a 
student's license but would accept a gun permit license, and 
yet we are choosing winners and losers.
    At the end of the day, I have had lots of my constituents 
talk to me about--especially the elderly or the disabled who do 
not drive anymore, who do not have valid IDs, according to 
these papers, but yet they have a validly Federal ID, which is 
called a Social Security card that everybody has that is an 
American, and I think that it is really appalling that we are 
spending our time talking about this effort when the reality is 
we need to fully fund Federal elections.
    I think you touched upon that. We have the Federal 
Elections Commission, but we also have the Election Assistance 
Commission, and they are not funded. Actually, we zero out 
their budget. Can you talk a little bit about that in the time 
remaining?
    Mr. Waldman. Yes. Over the years, Congress, on a bipartisan 
basis, has provided support, robust support for State election 
administration, which is so vital to our country. It has not 
done so recently, and we think that the next appropriations 
bill----
    Ms. Sewell. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you, sir.
    I wanted to also just ask for unanimous consent to add four 
things to the record: an article in The Hill by Ranking Member 
Morelle published today entitled ``Republicans Are Already 
Trying to Undermine the 2024 Election''; a letter from the 
Leadership Conference on Civil and Human Rights and the 
Declaration for American Democracy Coalition opposing the SAVE 
Act; as well as an article from The Washington Post entitled 
``Mike Johnson's Telling Comment on GOP's Lack of Voter Fraud 
Evidence''; and, last, an article from the Votebeat entitled 
``Documents Show Republican-Led States Struggling to Clean 
Voter Rolls After Leaving ERIC.''
    Can I please submit them?
    Chairman Steil. Without objection.
    [The articles and letter referred to follows:]

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    Mr. Loudermilk is recognized for 5 minutes.
    Mr. Loudermilk. Well, thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    Election integrity ranks in the top three issues that are 
most important to Americans across the board. I mean, this is 
Republicans, Democrats, and independents. This is not a 
partisan issue. This is an election integrity issue.
    When we allow someone who is not legally authorized to vote 
in this country to make decisions that are incredibly important 
to the safety, the security, and the economic viability of 
Americans, we undermine and undercut the value of each and 
every individual vote, whether Republican, Democrat, 
Independent, or whatever.
    This is extremely important to both sides. This is not a 
political issue, or it should not be. This should be an issue 
that I would venture to say, 10 years ago, 20 years ago, we 
would not be having this debate on a partisan basis. We would 
be looking for solutions to make sure every American, 
regardless of race, creed, religion, whatever, that their vote 
counts and is not discredited by someone who should not be 
voting.
    We have a couple of bills that are trying to address these, 
and Mr. von Spakovsky, I want to ask you about your thoughts 
regarding Representative Roy's recently introduced SAVE Act. I 
know he is trying to address this. We have the ASAC that we 
have worked on for a long time in this Committee.
    Regarding the SAVE Act, do you think it gives States the 
right tools to prevent noncitizens from registering to vote?
    Mr. von Spakovsky. Yes, of course, they do. The impediments 
that have been put in their way to prevent them from doing that 
need to be eliminated.
    By the way, can I just say very quickly, all of these 
claims that, for example, States requiring proof of citizenship 
is somehow going to suppress and keep people from voting, that 
is exactly the same kind of mythical claims that have been made 
against voter ID for more than a decade. Yet the turnout 
numbers show, particularly in your State of Georgia, first time 
in Presidential election ID 2008, the turnout numbers show it 
did not suppress votes. You had record registration, record 
voting of all voters, including minority voters in your State.
    Mr. Loudermilk. If I may add on to that, the voter ID 
requirement, my understanding, and you may confirm this, is 
that is a bipartisan issue. It ranks very highly among Democrat 
voters as well. Am I correct?
    Mr. von Spakovsky. The polling universally, it does not 
matter whether you go to a Rasmussen poll or Washington Post 
poll, the polling shows that Americans simply do not believe 
this idea that somehow it is going to keep people from voting.
    Overwhelmingly, voters say that is a commonsense 
requirement, and it does not matter which political party they 
are a member of or what their race or ethnicity is.
    Mr. Loudermilk. Voter rolls I think are the key to most of 
this, and we still, I hear quite often people telling me they 
have moved out of State. I hear from people that have moved 
from Georgia, from another State, and they are still getting 
ballots from their previous State.
    Does the SAVE Act go far enough with their mandatory list 
provisions, maintenance provisions?
    Mr. von Spakovsky. Oh, I think it is a good start on 
helping to fix that problem. There are more things that States 
could be doing. As Secretary Byrd can tell you, Florida, for 
example, is now entering into agreements with other States to 
compare and share their voter registration data to, in fact, 
find people who are registered in more than one State, which 
that is a problem, and more States need to be encouraged to do 
that.
    Mr. Loudermilk. You touched on this a few minutes ago, and 
it is regarding data bases. Are there additional data bases 
that States should have access to, to get the information they 
need to remove non-citizens from their rolls? I mean, you have 
already talked about jury duty, but what data bases should they 
be able to access?
    Mr. von Spakovsky. Well, we have mentioned the SAVE system. 
We have also mentioned E-Verify. Those who think that is 
enough, it is not, and the reason for that is, look, DHS is 
going to have in its records aliens who are here legally, 
aliens who are here illegally who have been detained. Aliens 
who have gotten into the country, have never been detained, 
never been processed, are not going to be in it.
    In fact, again, if you look at this report from 1998, the 
Committee says, ``Look, we found 820 aliens who were in the INS 
records who were registered to vote, but this only''--
documented aliens. They said that leaves open the question, 
well, how many aliens were registered who had never been 
processed or caught by the INS?
    Mr. Loudermilk. Well, thank you. I appreciate that.
    Let me just close with this--my time is up--that what we 
are trying to do here is to ensure that an election not only 
cannot be stolen but the accusation of that will never happen 
again.
    I yield back.
    Chairman Steil. The gentleman yields back.
    Kilmer is recognized for 5 minutes.
    Mr. Kilmer. Thanks, Chairman.
    My first question is for Mr. Waldman. I appreciate the 
concerns you raise in your testimony about the capacity of 
foreign adversaries to interfere in American elections. You 
know, one of the things that I have been looking at quite a bit 
is the fact that, right now, if any of us run ads on TV or ads 
on the radio, there are certain disclosure requirements. You 
get to know who paid for that ad. There is, you know, in 
essence, the public file where people can see the information 
about that ad.
    That is not true for internet-based advertisement. You 
know, why is that a problem? Well, one, we know that more and 
more political spending is migrating into that arena. Two, we 
know from declassified reports by the Office of the Director of 
National Intelligence that Russia, China, Iran, and others have 
sought to influence public perception of candidates through the 
internet.
    We have a bipartisan, bicameral bill called the Honest Ads 
Act to try to close that gap, and it simply would provide the 
same accountability and transparency standards that exist for 
TV and radio and apply them to the internet.
    What do you think?
    Mr. Waldman. Thank you for your leadership in the 
introduction of the Honest Ads Act. We think it is very 
important. This year, we think that up to 30 percent of 
spending on political ads will be online, and the protections 
that were in place in an era of broadcast TV and antennas on 
the top of your set are not enough for the digital era and 
especially the era that we are moving into with all the risks 
of disinformation and deepfakes and everything else.
    We think that the Honest Ads Act, which is bicameral and 
bipartisan, should be an urgent priority. I should note that 
important elements of it are also in the Freedom to Vote Act as 
part of that significant upgrade of the American electoral 
system.
    Mr. Kilmer. Thanks.
    I just commend to any of my colleagues here, I am happy to 
share information with you about that bill because I think to 
me it is a commonsense how do we keep foreign actors from 
trying to mess with our elections.
    I want to stick with you. You know, I share some of the 
concerns you have raised about the impacts of the SAVE Act on 
eligible voters in the U.S. You know, when I think about some 
of these issues regarding voter engagement and access to the 
ballot box, I think about my grandma.
    We called her Oma. She was a remarkable woman. She survived 
two World Wars. She was liberated by allied soldiers and came 
to this country from the Netherlands in 1948. She built a life 
here. She became an American citizen at the age of 87 because 
she wanted to vote. She lived until just south of 109 years 
old. She was an incredibly proud voter. As a person who was 
born 10 years before women's suffrage in this country, she was 
an incredibly proud voter.
    I think about some of these bits of legislation sort of 
through her perspective, right. She became a citizen at 87. At 
her age, she did not have a passport because, from her 
perspective, she was too old to travel anywhere. She did not 
have a driver's license. She had never driven.
    You can buy a photo ID in the State of Washington, but it 
now costs 54 bucks. That is a poll tax, right. That is a poll 
tax, right.
    You know, when I think about some of these requirements, 
like, I think about, you know, does it pass my Oma test.
    You know, I also think about some of the Tribes in my 
district. I represent a district with 12 Tribes. Folks from 
Tribal Nations have every right to participate in our democracy 
and the voting process; however, Tribal enrollment cards, which 
are used in Washington State as official identification, do not 
necessarily contain information about citizenship.
    Folks from Tribal Nations should not also be forced to pay 
poll tax to participate in democracy.
    I would love to get your thoughts and just have you share 
more about impacts of this SAVE Act when it comes to voters' 
access to what is their right.
    Mr. Waldman. Well, you are exactly right that there are so 
many voters who have been voting for decades who are eligible 
voters who would be adversely affected by a requirement that 
you show a passport or certified birth certificate or 
naturalization papers to vote. These are people who have been 
living up to their responsibility to vote, like your 
grandmother, over so many years who would suddenly find 
themselves unable to do so.
    In the States where this was briefly in effect, we saw tens 
of thousands of eligible voters being unable to vote.
    Mr. Kilmer. Eligible voters.
    Mr. Waldman. Yes.
    You mentioned Tribal voters from Tribal Nations are much 
less likely, for example, as I understand it, to have birth 
certificates of a kind that would be treated as acceptable 
here.
    I am not opposed and we are not opposed, for example, to 
voter ID. What we are opposed to is requiring ID that lots of 
people do not have. If we want to have a system that is secure 
and fair, that only eligible voters can vote, it is easy to do. 
Unfortunately, these proposals, and this one is one of them, 
are crafted in such a way to make it harder for some people to 
vote.
    In addition, more and more we are seeing rumors spread by 
leaders----
    Chairman Steil. The gentleman's time has expired.
    Mr. Waldman [continuing]. to make people doubt the veracity 
of their elections.
    Mr. Kilmer. Thank you.
    Thanks. I yield back.
    Chairman Steil. The gentleman yields back.
    Mr. Carey is recognized for 5 minutes.
    Mr. Carey. I want to thank the Chairman.
    I want to thank my dear friend, the Ranking Member, for 
doing this hearing today.
    I want to thank all of you for traveling in to do this 
hearing.
    Ms. Sutherland, I am going to focus a lot of my questions--
a lot of them are going to be parochial, as I am from the State 
of Ohio, the great State of Ohio.
    Can you talk a little about your organization's recent 
report that the Sixteen Thirty Fund poured almost, if my 
numbers are correct or the staff's numbers are correct, roughly 
$15 million in 8 months in Ohio on different ballot 
initiatives.
    Can you kind of just discuss what that was for and where 
that money came from?
    Ms. Sutherland. That is right. The group in question, the 
Sixteen Thirty Fund, is the same group that counts Hansjorg 
Wyss as one of their top donors. They have been the beneficiary 
of about a quarter of a billion dollars in foreign cash.
    Sixteen Thirty Fund turns around and spends it on a lot of 
things.
    Mr. Carey. Let me ask you real quick, what is the Sixteen 
Thirty Fund? What is it?
    Ms. Sutherland. The Sixteen Thirty Fund is D.C.-based 
501(c)(4).
    Mr. Carey. It is not Ohio-based?
    Ms. Sutherland. It is not Ohio-based.
    Mr. Carey. It is spending all of this money in the State of 
Ohio. Why is that?
    Ms. Sutherland. Yes. Sixteen Thirty Fund targeted the State 
of Ohio to make it easier to amend your State's constitution.
    Mr. Carey. Again, not an Ohio organization but an 
organization that is based out of D.C. that is targeting Ohio. 
Am I correct with that?
    Ms. Sutherland. That is correct.
    Mr. Carey. Where are the funders?
    Ms. Sutherland. Well, their top funders I have outlaid is--
--
    Mr. Carey. Are they coming from Ohio?
    Ms. Sutherland. They are actually coming from----
    Mr. Carey. Are they not coming from Ohio? That is all I 
want to know.
    Ms. Sutherland. They are coming from, one of them, is 
coming from Switzerland, a foreign national.
    Mr. Carey. They are from Switzerland?
    Ms. Sutherland. Yes.
    Mr. Carey. You are targeting at Ohio?
    Ms. Sutherland. Yes.
    Mr. Carey. With $16 million.
    How is that, and why is that right.
    Ms. Sutherland. Well, so they are taking advantage of what 
we have outlaid as this foreign influence loophole where 
foreign nationals can give to ballot issues, both directly and 
indirectly. What we have seen is Sixteen Thirty Fund and their 
foreign-backed cash targeting Ohio.
    Mr. Carey. Is not that wrong?
    Ms. Sutherland. Absolutely.
    Mr. Carey. Let me ask you this. How has the Ohio 
legislature had any success in moving any legislation forward? 
I mean, I know these individuals. They are very dear friends of 
mine, but are they moving any legislation forward that 
prohibits this conduct by foreign nationals?
    Ms. Sutherland. I actually had the opportunity just a 
couple months ago to testify in support of legislation in Ohio 
that would close this foreign influence loophole to prohibit 
foreign nationals from contributing to State ballot issues. It 
actually passed the State senate, and it was actually recently 
taken up again.
    Ohio paired this legislation with getting Biden on the 
ballot. Unfortunately, every single Democrat in the Ohio State 
had voted to keep Joe Biden off the ballot in favor of keeping 
the foreign dark money flowing in Ohio.
    Mr. Carey. We have got two ballot initiatives. You know, 
one is a redistricting ballot initiative, and one is a minimum 
wage ballot so they can destroy the restaurants like they did 
here in D.C. Tell me, do you think that is going to have a big 
influence in terms of the amount of money that is going to go 
into the State on these ballot initiatives?
    Ms. Sutherland. Absolutely. What we also see on these State 
ballot issues is that they are weaponized, and they turn out 
the vote to shore up the vote to support these liberal-leaning 
ballot issues and help the top of the ticket as well.
    Mr. Carey. Let me just--I mean, I only have a minute and 26 
seconds left, but so, if Congress or the Ohio legislature does 
not act to prohibit this national involvement in our State or 
local ballot initiatives between now and November--and you 
pretty much said it, but I am going to let you get another 
chance at the apple here--this conduct will continue. Am I 
correct?
    Ms. Sutherland. Absolutely.
    Mr. Carey. In finalization, can you talk just a little bit 
about what you are seeing in other States? I mean, I know Ohio. 
$16 million is a lot of money. What are we seeing in some of 
the other States?
    Ms. Sutherland. We are seeing right now that the Sixteen 
Thirty Fund is actively spending in many States. They are 
actively spending in Ohio. They are actively spending in 
Missouri, Nevada, and Montana.
    Mr. Carey. Is there any reason--I mean, my goodness. Is 
there any reason that they would be picking these States to 
spend some money in? What do you think it is?
    Ms. Sutherland. Yes. If you take a look at the States that 
the Sixteen Thirty Fund has targeted for these ballot issues, 
you can tell that they are key Presidential States and often 
has a competitive U.S. Senate race concurrent with the ballot 
issue that they are trying to advance.
    Mr. Carey. All right. Well, thank you.
    Mr. Chairman, I yield back.
    Chairman Steil. The gentleman yields back.
    Mrs. Torres is recognized for 5 minutes.
    Mrs. Torres. Thank you, Chairman.
    I think it seems like we have forgotten, you know, the fact 
that the Russians have so much influence in our Presidential 
election and that the former President and current candidate 
for President, the Republican nominee, specifically asked the 
Russians for help in his last election.
    Here we are again witnessing another attempt to undermine a 
free and fair and secure American election by continuing to sow 
doubt ahead of the 2024 election.
    I think that we should be clear about the credibility of 
the Republican witnesses that we have in front of us today. I 
ask, Mr. Chairman, for unanimous consent to enter into the 
record two documents: one, an article from NBC, headline ``Vote 
Fraud Crusader J. Christian Adams Sparks Outrage''; and an 
article from the Law and Crime, headline ``Former Trump Voting 
Commissioner Official Forced to Apologize for Falsely Accusing 
People of Voter Fraud.''
    [The articles referred to follow:]

[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
    
    Mrs. Torres. Mr. Adams has a history of making unfounded 
allegations about illegal voting allegations that were so 
egregious and so damaging to innocent people and families that 
a Federal court had to step in, a Federal court in 2016 and 
2017.
    Mr. Adams published two reports called ``Alien Invasion in 
Virginia'' that states that thousands of people, thousands of 
people had illegally registered to vote in Virginia. The report 
contained an appendix that contained the voter registration 
forms of alleged noncitizens, including their names, home 
addresses, and telephone numbers.
    This blatant attempt to intimidate voters was so egregious 
that a Federal court forced Mr. Adams to provide a written 
apology on behalf of himself and his organization, PILF.
    The Court also forced PILF to include the following 
disclaimer: ``PILF recognizes that individuals in,'' you know, 
exhibit whatever, ``were, in fact, in fact, citizens and that 
these citizens did not commit felonies but were subject to your 
abuse. PILF profoundly regrets any characterization of those 
registrants as felons or instances of registration or voting as 
felonies.''
    It is stunning, stunning that this is the type of behavior 
and witness that we have in front of us today and that the 
majority has brought to us and that these are the witnesses you 
seem to think have any credibility on any of these issues.
    Mr. Waldman, it is exhausting to be in this Committee 
dealing with these types of issues. To your knowledge, is there 
any evidence that noncitizen voting has ever affected the 
outcome, the outcome of any election?
    Mr. Waldman. I am not aware of any evidence that noncitizen 
voting has affected the outcome of any Federal elections.
    I will note that the hearing record that Mr. von Spakovsky 
keeps waving around is from a quarter century ago. Since then, 
Congress passed the Help America Vote Act, and States happily 
have vastly improved and greatly upgraded their systems, their 
voter registration rolls, and the use of computers. Back then, 
it was paper records.
    States and officials of both parties have upgraded, and 
they should not be subject to felony.
    Mrs. Torres. Absolutely.
    What would you estimate the chances of noncitizens voting 
affecting the outcome of the 2024 upcoming election?
    Mr. Waldman. There is no reason to think, based on facts, 
not intuition, that noncitizen voting will affect the outcome 
of this or any other Federal election of significance.
    Mrs. Torres. Like millions of Americans, I was horrified, 
Mr. Chairman, and disgusted by the violent, deadly attack on 
the Capitol that happened on January 6, 2021. What made the 
attack terrifying was that, on top of the threat to our 
democracy and on top of the threat to the peaceful transfer of 
power, the violent insurrection targeted us, Members of 
Congress and staff who were here working that day.
    It is our job, as Members of this Committee, to ensure that 
nothing like this ever, ever happens again.
    Mr. Waldman, is there any connection between the lies that 
the former President and these witnesses or some of these 
witnesses have stated in an attempt to steal the 2020 election 
and the lies about noncitizens voting at this hearing is 
spreading today? What would be the impact to this upcoming 
election?
    Mr. Waldman. False allegations about widespread misconduct 
spurred the January 6th insurrection even though court after 
court, 63 courts rejected it. It has spurred unwise voting 
laws, and I am very worried it is going to be a factor in this 
election.
    Mrs. Torres. My time is up. Thank you.
    I am going to yield back, but I am going to say, should 
another insurrection occur, it will be at the hands of this 
Committee membership that continues to spread lies about our 
honest and free elections.
    I yield back.
    Chairman Steil. The gentlewoman's time has expired.
    Ms. Lee is recognized for 5 minutes.
    Ms. Lee. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you to our 
witnesses for your testimony and for being here with us today.
    Secretary Byrd, I would like to return to your testimony 
and hear more about the specific safeguards that Florida has in 
place to prevent noncitizens from voting and what the Federal 
Government needs to do to help equip State and local election 
officials to conduct lawful, accurate elections.
    In 2020, Florida's constitution was amended to specifically 
ensure that only U.S. citizens can vote in Florida, correct?
    Mr. Byrd. That is correct.
    Ms. Lee. That passed with over almost 80 percent of the 
vote in Florida. Is not that right?
    Mr. Byrd. That is actually right.
    Ms. Lee. Now, you testified earlier about something called 
the SAVE data base that is in the possession of the Department 
of Homeland Security, but you mentioned that it was both overly 
expensive and inefficient, in essence, for State and local 
election officials to use.
    Would you tell us a little bit more about that data base 
and some of the things that make it less than optimal for your 
use as an election officials?
    Mr. Byrd. Thank you. Yes, so the SAVE data base is both 
inefficient due to time and in accuracy. It costs States, for 
every transaction, and for some voters, it is multiple 
transactions, so it is a financial burden on the States to gain 
information that only the Federal Government has that we compel 
the States to comply with under Federal law.
    By the time an election can come and before we have had the 
opportunity to gain all of the information, a noncitizen who 
made it onto the rolls could gain access to the vote before we 
have time to remove them.
    Ms. Lee. Would it be helpful if there was not a fee 
associated with accessing that data base?
    Mr. Byrd. Absolutely.
    Ms. Lee. In your opinion, should that data base and could 
that data base be more complete and more accurate?
    Mr. Byrd. Yes. It should be more accessible to every State 
and to local voting administrators.
    Ms. Lee. You also touched on information about when a 
person is naturalized and then should be accessing, should be 
an eligible voter. Is that information that is promptly and 
reliably provided to you as an election official from the 
Federal Government?
    Mr. Byrd. It is not. That is one of the things that we are 
requesting that Congress consider is making that information 
available on a regular basis to States, everyone who is 
naturalized, so we can run that data base of new citizens 
against our existing voter registration roll.
    Ms. Lee. Mr. Adams testified earlier about information that 
exists in the Federal courts when individuals report for jury 
duty. Is there information there as well that would be useful 
to you if it were, in fact, provided to State and local 
election officials?
    Mr. Byrd. Yes. Any information that is in the possession of 
any branch of the Federal Government regarding citizenship 
status would be helpful to the States.
    Ms. Lee. Are there other provisions of the NVRA that in 
your view would be helpful if amended?
    Mr. Byrd. Most significantly it is the issue of who has 
become a naturalized citizen. Also, as you know as my 
predecessor as secretary of the State of Florida, in a 
Presidential election year, which we are in, there are three 
periods: the Presidential preference primary, the primary in 
August, and then the election in November.
    There is a provision in the NVRA that prohibits States from 
doing certain list maintenance 90 days before each of those 
elections. That is 270 days out of this Presidential election 
year in which States are prohibited from engaging in certain 
voter list maintenance activity, and we think that should be 
stopped.
    Ms. Lee. Thank you, Secretary Byrd.
    Mr. Adams, I want to return to you. You featured very 
prominently in some comments just a moment ago. I wanted to 
give you an opportunity to share your perspective and respond.
    Mr. Adams. Thank you, Representative Lee.
    First of all, I see Representative Torres has hit and run. 
This is endemic of cancel culture where anyone who talks about 
these issues is attacked.
    Her recitation of the record was grotesquely inadequate, 
and, in fact, what we published were public records from the 
Commonwealth of Virginia about noncitizens who were removed 
from the rolls, or purported noncitizens.
    I have here from Virginia's Department of Elections 
commentary about our work. It said, ``It is worth noting there 
were some issues that we had with delivery of the DMV 
noncitizen file.'' They have since corrected these issues. In 
other words, we found the problem in Virginia list maintenance 
involving the improper cancellation of Americans.
    Representative Torres, were she still here, should be glad 
that public records have been corrected as a result of these 
cases that we discovered.
    Ms. Lee. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I yield back.
    Chairman Steil. The gentlewoman yields back.
    In consultation with the Ranking Member, we will each make 
brief closing remarks before we conclude the hearing. I will 
yield to the Ranking Member.
    Mr. Morelle. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and I appreciate you 
giving me a couple minutes here just to gather some of my 
thoughts.
    I think one of the reasons I think we are so concerned 
about this is there are already doubts being cast on the 2024 
election by leading Republicans. Senator Lindsey Graham said he 
would accept the results of the election only if there was no 
massive cheating, which has never been proven, despite claims 
in 2020.
    Earlier this month, two of former President Trump's 
potential running mates, Senator Tim Scott and Governor Doug 
Burgum of North Dakota, declined to commit to accepting the 
results.
    Senator J.D. Vance of Ohio, I saw him on television the 
other day at CNN, said he would only honor the outcome if the 
election was free and fair, but Republicans should be ready to 
pursue any problems.
    The list goes on. Even my colleague from New York, 
Representative Stefanik, refused to commit to certify voting 
results in 2024.
    Byron Donalds said he would not necessarily certify the 
2028 election results if he were Vice President.
    It goes on and on. We are panicked because, in the 250 
years of this country's existence, in this Republic, people 
have routinely, on both sides of the aisle, both sides of any 
partisan debate, have always accepted election results, until 
2020. The former President continues to this day to cast doubt.
    In fact, one of the things I also wanted to point out is we 
suggested authorizing up to $5 billion over the next 10 years 
to put money into State and local elections to help local 
election officials and State officials do the job to the best 
of their ability and have not had support for that.
    Frankly, even the ERIC tool, which is a nonpartisan 
organization that helps States ensure security and integrity of 
voter rolls by collecting data from various State sources, 
including DMVs and election offices, you know, the former 
President went on a rave about--sort of conspiracy-fueled about 
ERIC and its partisanship with no evidence at all.
    Because people feel compelled to follow every single thing 
he says, they have to run like rats out of an aqueduct to try 
to keep up with the insanity.
    I have great respect for my colleague Laura Lee. She said 
of ERIC in 2019 when she was Florida's secretary of State, 
``Joining ERIC keeps Florida at the forefront of election 
security and will help us ensure a fair and accurate election 
in 2020 and beyond.''
    I note then the former President said, ``We are not for 
ERIC anymore.'' Your successor who is here, the secretary of 
State, caused Florida to leave ERIC--the bipartisan, 
nonpartisan effort to do this.
    In fact, even you, Mr. Adams, a witness today, said there 
was no adequate alternative to ERIC, declaring, this is a 
quote, ``There is no replacement right now. People are trying 
and hoping. I am hoping for a Lamborghini.'' Hopefully you got 
one, I hope, Mr. Adams, for your sake. You even called out 
snake oil salesmen pushing the nonexistent replacement to ERIC.
    We are desperately concerned about notions that, even here 
we are, 3 and a half years later, the former President 
continuing to insist that there is fraud in a 2020 election 
despite the countless lawsuits, all the evidence to the 
contrary. We are still doing this, which is why we are panicked 
about 2024.
    To say this hearing, again, we believe is a pretext for 
starting a reverse engineer of Y-2024: ``We are going to call 
into question. We do not have any data about it.''
    Frankly, there is so much we can be doing to ensure all 
Americans vote. I apologize. I am taking a few extra seconds 
here, and I appreciate that. We are just very, very concerned.
    We know, for instance, that the research methodology of the 
studies referenced by Mr. von Spakovsky's testimony were 
immediately and convincingly rebutted upon publication by 
experts of the survey data used in the study. It has been a 
decade now, and in a decade since, the authors of that data 
have not published a defense of their research that is 
compelling enough to make it through review, peer review, or 
surveys of any serious scrutiny.
    I think we all know this. I hope my majority colleagues 
know this. Some people might say that they just do not care. I 
hope--no, honestly, I pray that this is not true.
    As far as I can tell, none of the majority Members of this 
Committee, the main Committee of jurisdiction for the bill that 
we are talking about today attended the Speaker's now infamous 
press conference to introduce the so-called SAVE Act, an 
Orwellian name if I have ever heard one. That was last week.
    As of 10 a.m. this morning, at least according to 
Congress.gov, only one of the Members of this Committee has 
signed on to the bill. I take that as a good sign. I hope this 
means, at the very least, most of my colleagues on this 
Committee are unwilling to entwine their names for posterity to 
these obvious lies to this disgraceful effort to subvert and 
downgrade our Republic. I think they know deep down, as I do, 
what is happening here, and I think the rest of us know it too.
    With that, I yield back.
    Chairman Steil. The gentleman yields back.
    I thank our witnesses for being here today. I think what we 
have fleshed out is the real significant issue that noncitizen 
voting is playing in instilling confidence in our elections. As 
we have done over the course of the past 18 months in this 
Committee, we have explored areas where we can improve our 
confidence in our elections.
    We did a hearing in Atlanta, Georgia, to show exactly what 
took place when Georgia passed a voter integrity bill that 
enhanced integrity in their elections. Contrary to what 
President Biden claimed and many on the left claimed, what we 
actually saw was great participation in Georgia, by many 
analyses, participation actually increasing in the State.
    The University of Georgia did a comprehensive study of that 
election, and what we got back was great data, that people were 
actually very pleased with how the elections were conducted and 
operated, which tells me that, as we increase confidence in our 
election, we actually increase participation.
    What we have done is fleshed out, as Hans von Spakovsky has 
shown us, this has been an issue that has plagued elections for 
some time. In an election over 20 years ago, this House 
Committee showed numerous noncitizens voting.
    Then, in a more recent era, we have Washington, D.C., 
aggressively not only allowing noncitizens to vote, in 
particular, for mayor and other key elections in the city but 
so much as actively encouraging noncitizens to vote, so much so 
sending out a postcard at taxpayer expense encouraging 
noncitizens to vote in our Nation's Capital. To do so, one 
would only need to reside in Washington, D.C., for 30 days.
    As we look at ways to increase Americans' confidence in our 
elections between now and the November election, I think this 
should be an area where folks on the left should actually be 
willing to work with us to make sure that we are addressing 
these concerns, to maintain that U.S. elections are for U.S. 
citizens, to remove noncitizens from the voter rolls, to secure 
our election and increase Americans' confidence in their 
election because I believe, as we increase confidence in our 
elections, more individuals are willing to participate, and 
more participation in our elections is a good thing.
    Before we leave, I also have a real concern with what the 
Biden administration has done, in particular, as it relates to 
Executive Order 14.019. What they have done is worked to 
weaponize all Federal agencies on behalf of President Biden's 
reelection campaign.
    I am sending a letter to every Cabinet official in the 
Biden administration, in particular, as it relates to this 
executive order. Our Federal agency should be focused on 
serving the American people, not focused on reelecting 
President Biden.
    As we see the actions taken by this administration to 
leverage taxpayer dollars for political purposes, that should 
be concerning to all citizens.
    I look forward to the reply from these letters from every 
Cabinet Secretary in the Biden administration.
    I appreciate all of our witnesses for being here. I 
appreciate the Ranking Member and all Members of the Committee 
for their participation.
    Members of the Committee may have some additional questions 
for our witnesses. We ask you to respond to those questions in 
writing.
    Without objection, each Member will have 5 legislative days 
to insert additional material into the record or to revise and 
extend their remarks.
    If there is no further business, I want to thank the 
Members for their participation.
    Without objection, the Committee stands adjourned.
    [Whereupon, at 11:58 a.m., the Committee was adjourned.]

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