[House Hearing, 118 Congress]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]



                  U.S. DEPARTMENT OF VETERANS AFFAIRS
                  OFFICE OF INFORMATION AND TECHNOLOGY
                  BUDGET REQUEST FOR FISCAL YEAR 2025

=======================================================================




                                HEARING

                               before the

                       SUBCOMMITTEE ON TECHNOLOGY
                             MODERNIZATION

                                 of the

                     COMMITTEE ON VETERANS' AFFAIRS

                     U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

                    ONE HUNDRED EIGHTEENTH CONGRESS

                             SECOND SESSION
                               __________

                         TUESDAY, MAY 14, 2024
                               __________

                           Serial No. 118-63
                               __________


       Printed for the use of the Committee on Veterans' Affairs




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                     COMMITTEE ON VETERANS' AFFAIRS

                     MIKE BOST, Illinois, Chairman

AUMUA AMATA COLEMAN RADEWAGEN,       MARK TAKANO, California, Ranking 
  American Samoa, Vice-Chairwoman      Member
JACK BERGMAN, Michigan               JULIA BROWNLEY, California
NANCY MACE, South Carolina           MIKE LEVIN, California
MATTHEW M. ROSENDALE, SR., Montana   CHRIS PAPPAS, New Hampshire
MARIANNETTE MILLER-MEEKS, Iowa       FRANK J. MRVAN, Indiana
GREGORY F. MURPHY, North Carolina    SHEILA CHERFILUS-MCCORMICK, 
C. SCOTT FRANKLIN, Florida             Florida
DERRICK VAN ORDEN, Wisconsin         CHRISTOPHER R. DELUZIO, 
MORGAN LUTTRELL, Texas                 Pennsylvania
JUAN CISCOMANI, Arizona              MORGAN MCGARVEY, Kentucky
ELIJAH CRANE, Arizona                DELIA C. RAMIREZ, Illinois
KEITH SELF, Texas                    GREG LANDSMAN, Ohio
JENNIFER A. KIGGANS, Virginia        NIKKI BUDZINSKI, Illinois

                       Jon Clark, Staff Director
                  Matt Reel, Democratic Staff Director

                SUBCOMMITTEE ON TECHNOLOGY MODERNIZATION

              MATTHEW M. ROSENDALE, SR., Montana, Chairman

NANCY MACE, South Carolina           SHEILA CHERFILUS-MCCORMICK, 
KEITH SELF, Texas                      Florida, Ranking Member
                                     GREG LANDSMAN, Ohio


Pursuant to clause 2(e)(4) of Rule XI of the Rules of the House, public 
hearing records of the Committee on Veterans' Affairs are also 
published in electronic form. The printed hearing record remains the 
official version. Because electronic submissions are used to prepare 
both printed and electronic versions of the hearing record, the process 
of converting between various electronic formats may introduce 
unintentional errors or omissions. Such occurrences are inherent in the 
current publication process and should diminish as the process is 
further refined.
































                         C  O  N  T  E  N  T  S

                               ----------                              

                         TUESDAY, MAY 14, 2024

                                                                   Page

                           OPENING STATEMENTS

The Honorable Matthew M. Rosendale, Sr., Chairman................     1
The Honorable Sheila Cherfilus-McCormick, Ranking Member.........     2

                               WITNESSES
                               
                                Panel 1

The Honorable Kurt DelBene, Assistant Secretary for Information 
  and Technology, Office of Information and Technology, U.S. 
  Department of Veterans Affairs.................................     4

        Accompanied by:

    Mr. Dewaine Beard, Principal Deputy Under Secretary, Office 
        of Information and Technology, U.S. Department of 
        Veterans Affairs

    Mr. Nathan Tierney, Deputy Chief Information Officer and 
        Chief People Officer, Office of Information and 
        Technology, U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs

    Mr. Timothy Puetz, Deputy Chief Information Officer and Chief 
        Financial Officer, Office of Information and Technology, 
        U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs

                                APPENDIX
                                
                     Prepared Statement Of Witness

The Honorable Kurt DelBene Prepared Statement....................    31

                        Statement For The Record

U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs Response to Questions for the 
  Record.........................................................    33

 
                  U.S. DEPARTMENT OF VETERANS AFFAIRS
                  OFFICE OF INFORMATION AND TECHNOLOGY
                  BUDGET REQUEST FOR FISCAL YEAR 2025

                              ----------                              

                         TUESDAY, MAY 14, 2024

  Subcommittee on Technology Modernization,
                    Committee on Veterans' Affairs,
                             U.S. House of Representatives,
                                                    Washington, DC.
    The subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 8:03 a.m., in 
room 360, Cannon House Office Building, Hon. Matt Rosendale 
(chairman of the subcommittee) presiding.
    Present: Representatives Rosendale, Mace, Self, Cherfilus-
McCormick, and Landsman.

      OPENING STATEMENT OF MATTHEW M. ROSENDALE, CHAIRMAN

    Mr. Rosendale. I would like to call this meeting to order, 
the subcommittee. Going to get started with a statement. Once 
again, the U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs (VA) delivered 
its testimony to the subcommittee late, only 3 hours before 
this hearing. I have mentioned this in hearings before, and I 
am starting to feel like I am talking to a brick wall or a 
broken record.
    The Congress always solicits testimony from the executive 
branch agencies and gives it great respect, even when we 
fiercely disagree. This exchange of views between the 
legislative branch and the executive branch is fundamental 
under the Constitution. When the VA's testimony is so late that 
we may not be able to read it in advance, that is disrespectful 
and it undermines this process. I urge witnesses and all the 
people in all the layers of the VA and the White House 
bureaucracy who wrote the testimony to do better, not just for 
this committee's sake, but for the benefit of all the veterans 
who ultimately will be impacted by this.
    Good afternoon. Today we will examine the Biden 
administration's budget request for the VA Office of 
Information and Technology. I want to thank our witnesses from 
Office of Information Technology (OIT) for joining us to help 
understand this request. It is by far the most unusual VA 
information technology budget that we have seen since this 
subcommittee was created.
    Factoring in all the funding sources, including the Toxic 
Exposure Fund (TEF), one-time dollars, transfers, 
reimbursements, and carryover, it constitutes a 3.3 percent cut 
to $7.9 billion. I have no doubt there is waste in the VA 
budget, and there is at least 3 percent of unproductive 
bureaucracy and padded contracts that should be cut. However, 
the administration seems to be proposing the cuts in an 
incredibly lopsided, damaging way.
    Development would take a 99 percent cut. I am all for 
reducing spending, but even I do not make recommendations about 
a 99 percent cut, especially in development. Information 
Technology (IT) modernization, which is one of the top 
priorities of President Biden's Federal chief information 
officer (CIO), would take an 81 percent cut. VA's 
infrastructure readiness program, which we have heard is vital 
on many occasions, is being proposed a 66 percent cut. 
Technology for the Veterans Benefits Administration (VBA), 
which has had serious problems over the last year, would get a 
41 percent cut.
    Meanwhile, staffing and administrative expenses would 
increase by 5 percent, and operations and maintenance takes 
about a 100 million, or a 2 percent, cut in the base budget 
request, but then gets boosted by more than $1.3 billion from 
the Toxic Exposure Fund. It is hard to make sense of what would 
increase and what would actually be cut.
    We may hear that the Fiscal Responsibility Act, which was a 
top line budget agreement between the President and the former 
Speaker, forced these cuts, but that explanation does not stand 
scrutiny. That budget agreement and the current budget 
agreement specifically exempted veterans' healthcare, which is 
about 80 percent of the VA discretionary spending. It is true 
that if the administration decided to spend above the 
negotiated levels, they would need to make cuts in other areas 
of the VA. That may be what we are seeing happen right now.
    Congress has always met VA's budget requests, but I do not 
think any Congress should ever appropriate more money than an 
agency asked for. Therefore, even though I do not have much 
confidence in this OIT budget, I need to understand in detail 
how it would be implemented. We need to know whether the 
special salary rate is accomplishing its objective to recruit 
superior talent, and we need to understand what kind of 
pressure it is putting on the payroll at OIT's overall budget.
    As we recently saw, with the critical skills incentive 
payments to the VBA and Veterans Health Administration (VHA) 
executives, this sort of pay increase can get out of control. 
The original purpose can quickly be forgotten, and it can be 
easy to hand out raises with other people's money. I am very 
concerned that an unsustainable payroll can actually undermine 
recruitment and retention and drive away top talent.
    Strong management will be very important to navigate OIT 
through the next few years. Once again, I want to welcome our 
witnesses to discuss these important issues.
    With that, I yield to Ranking Member Cherfilus-McCormick 
for opening statements.

OPENING STATEMENT OF SHEILA CHERFILUS-MCCORMICK, RANKING MEMBER

    Ms. Cherfilus-McCormick. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you 
for holding this hearing to discuss VA's IT budget request for 
Fiscal Year 2025.
    The Department of Veterans Affairs is tasked with providing 
world-class healthcare and benefits to our Nation's veterans. 
It is part of the pact that we make with young people when they 
sign up to serve and defend our Nation. However, given the 
rapidly increasing cost of community care, I am concerned that 
we are creating a situation where VA will have to cannibalize 
other service lines and programs to pay the bills. 
Unfortunately, in this situation and throughout healthcare, IT 
is one of the most frequent victims.
    IT is the backbone of VA. Pretty much everything VA does 
happens on computers. It is critical that we ensure that this 
budget properly reflects our commitment to our veterans. During 
last month's hearing on VA's overall budget, we heard about the 
growth in other parts of VA, but it appears that the IT budget 
is not keeping pace. If we are not ensuring that frontline VA 
staff have the appropriate tools to do their job, we are not 
doing right by our veterans.
    We have heard horror stories of it taking upwards of 10 
minutes for an employee to log into their computers. Ten 
minutes in this digital era in 2024. Ten minutes. That is 
totally ridiculous. It is a clear symptom of the long-term 
neglect of VA's IT infrastructure.
    Despite these issues, it appears VA is cutting the budget 
for its infrastructure readiness program (IRP) by 65 percent. 
Crucially, the IRP was intended to address VA's technical debt 
caused by chronic neglect of its IT infrastructure. I am afraid 
this budget request will only handicap the IRPs efforts. If we 
are not prioritizing VA's IT infrastructure, none of its other 
modernization efforts are likely to make any meaningful 
difference. It is like buying a new sports car and driving it 
on a dirt road. Eventually it is going to fall apart.
    While we are on the topic of modernization, I have noticed 
that there are near 50 percent cuts to VA IT modernization 
budget. At a time when there are several major IT modernization 
efforts underway, this budget cut seems likely to cause major 
issues. I do not see how the VA can keep projects like 
modernization of the Veterans Benefit Management System, FMBT, 
and digital GI Bill moving with this budget cut. I hope to hear 
from CIO how this is going to work.
    Perhaps most importantly, I am concerned about the IT 
workforce budget. While there was a modest 5 percent increase, 
I am concerned that it does not keep pace with the OIT's 
expanded authorities to provide special salary rates (SSR) for 
its people. I fear supporting those SSRs will force OIT to 
decrease the number of its people it has. Expecting VA's IT 
folks to do more work with less people is going to have a 
lasting impact on retention. The pay raises will not be enough 
to prevent people from resigning.
    On an opposite note, I will say that I am happy to see that 
the VA is increasing its investment in cybersecurity. 
Healthcare organizations are a prime target for hackers and 
other bad actors. It is critical that VA defend the massive 
trove of veterans' data that it has been entrusted with, but it 
is also critical that VA protect its ability to provide care 
and benefits to veterans. This became incredibly apparent in 
the aftermath of the Change Healthcare cyber attack. VA is 
still dealing with the fallout of that incident as it and 
Change Healthcare attempt to identify which Change products are 
in use by VA. It has now been more than 2 months since the 
breach and we still do not know what, if any, veterans data was 
exposed. I understand that Change wants to be certain, but I am 
concerned that the risk to veterans and their families grows 
every day that they fail to disclose the impact. We cannot 
allow our veterans' financial lives to be decimated by the 
attack on a VA partner. I expect better from the VA contractors 
and hope that this gets rectified soon.
    With that said, I would like to thank the witnesses for 
being here today and look forward to hearing your testimony.
    Mr. Rosendale. Thank you, Ranking Member Cherfilus-
McCormick. I will now introduce the witnesses on our first and 
only panel.
    First, from the Department of Veterans Affairs, we have 
assistant secretary for information and technology, Mr. Kurt 
DelBene. We also have the principal deputy chief information 
officer, Mr. Dewaine Beard. Finally, we have the OIT chief 
financial officer, Mr. Tim Puetz, and the chief people officer, 
Mr. Nathan Tierney. I ask the witnesses to please stand and 
raise your right hands.
    [Witnesses sworn.]
    Mr. Rosendale. Thank you, and let the record reflect that 
each of the witnesses have answered in the affirmative.
    Mr. DelBene, you are now recognized for 5 minutes to 
deliver your opening statement on behalf of VA.

                   STATEMENT OF KURT DELBENE

    Mr. DelBene. Thank you, Chairman Rosendale. The first thing 
I would like to say is we apologize for the lateness of the 
testimony. I will assure you it is not through a lack of 
respect for the committee and that a great deal of work went on 
to create it, so. You have my apologies for the time--the lack 
of timeliness of the testimony. I just wanted to say that up 
front.
    Chairman Rosendale, Ranking Member Cherfilus-McCormick, and 
distinguished members of the subcommittee, thank you for the 
opportunity to testify in support of the President's Fiscal 
Year 2025 budget of information technology requests from the 
Department of Veterans affairs and for your longstanding 
support of veterans and their families. I am accompanied by Mr. 
Dewaine Beard, principal deputy secretary of Information 
technology; Deputy CIO Dr. Timothy Puetz; OIT's chief financial 
officer and deputy CIO for IT budget and finance; and Mr. 
Nathan Tierney, OIT's chief people officer and deputy CIO of 
the Office of People Science.
    VA is committed to providing veterans a seamless, secure, 
and unified digital experience through state-of-the-art 
technology. Technology has become the very foundation of the 
VA's ability to deliver on its mission and to continue to 
provide world-class care and benefits to more veterans than 
ever before. The President's Fiscal Year 2025 budget provides 
$7.6 billion for VA IT systems and telecommunications support, 
including $6.2 billion in base discretionary funding. In 
addition, there is $1.4 billion in mandatory Toxic Exposure 
Fund, or TEF funding, to continue the modernization of 
systems--as authorized under the Sergeant First Class Heath 
Robinson Honoring our Promise to Address Comprehensive Toxics 
(PACT) Act of 2022.
    OIT will make focused IT investments in cybersecurity, the 
IT workforce, and modernization. The total Fiscal Year 2025 
budget for IT is $49 million--, or 0.6 percent below the Fiscal 
Year 2024 enacted level. Base discretionary funding for IT is 
$169 million, or 2.6 percent, below the Fiscal Year 2024 
enacted level, while TEF funding is $121 million, or 9.7 
percent, above the Fiscal Year 2024 enacted level.
    The Fiscal Year 2025 staffing and administration support 
services request of $1.686 billion funds 8,310 full-time 
employees, or FTE. That is 160, or 2 percent, above the Fiscal 
Year 2024 enacted level. The Fiscal Year 2025 budget provides 
$670 million for cybersecurity, and VA's Zero Trust 
acceleration efforts, a $118 million, or 21 percent, increase 
in the base funding relative to the Fiscal Year 2024 level. OIT 
will bridge the Fiscal Year 2024 enacted level and the Fiscal 
Year 2025 budget request to ensure consistent support of key 
initiatives. Where practical, OIT will accelerate certain 
investments in Fiscal Year 2024 based on the operating plan and 
scale back other investments and technology roadmaps. This 
ensures we have an investment plan that balances resources with 
key initiatives to support continuity of veteran healthcare and 
benefits and represents a consistent strategy across the two 
fiscal years.
    To successfully execute on the Fiscal Year 2025 budget, VA 
will continue to manage its IT budget with transparency. OIT is 
taking a critical look at all legacy projects, established 
projects, and newly proposed programs as well. We are 
evaluating the value that those projects bring to mission 
delivery and determining if those funds can better be used 
elsewhere, especially in areas of IT modernization, 
cybersecurity, and IT workforce, which are vital in maintaining 
VA's digital transformation efforts in pursuit of more 
efficient and impactful service delivery to our veterans.
    The TEF funding from Congress is instrumental in furthering 
VA's IT modernization efforts. OIT is exercising extreme 
discipline in allocating TEF investments, ensuring a strong 
relationship between IT and the delivery of healthcare and 
benefits relative to toxic exposure when modernizing related IT 
systems. We recognize the necessity of tradeoffs and remain 
committed to the strategic to strategically scrutinizing where 
we deploy those investments.
    When veterans leverage technology access to VA services, 
they trust that the underlying digital ecosystem is safe, 
reliable, and secure. For this reason, OIT has maintained 
cybersecurity as a priority in Fiscal Year 2025. This will help 
us to deliver a robust and resilient security posture for the 9 
million veterans using VA care and benefits, and hundreds of 
thousands of VA employees and contractors who access their 
network every day.
    As VA prioritizes key investments, we must also recruit and 
retain an upskilled current IT workforce of over 8,000 
individuals. VA is working hard to modernize its workforce with 
targeted strategies. These include hiring, cybersecurity, 
artificial intelligence, continuously talent development 
incentives, and focused field staff expansion to support 
veteran health and benefits mission growth. IT modernization is 
essential for achieving our goals of creating a 21st Century 
VA, where VA stands at the forefront of delivering veterans 
seamless digital experience. VA will prioritize these funds in 
the most essential modernization initiatives that bolster the 
Department's ability to serve veterans. VA's model of 
addressing IT improvements incrementally rather than via large 
system replacement projects will help us manage IT spend, 
reduce vulnerability to cyber threats, and strategically scale 
IT modernization.
    Chairman Rosendale, Ranking Member Cherfilus-McCormick, and 
members of the subcommittee, I want to thank you for allowing 
us to appear today. We remain responsible stewards of our 
funding and committed to maximizing the effectiveness of our 
investments through the VA enterprise. I look forward to our 
continued work with this subcommittee to address the greatest 
priorities of the digital transformation in Fiscal Year 2025.
    That concludes my testimony and I look forward to answering 
your questions.

    [The Prepared Statement Of Kurt DelBene Appears In The 
Appendix]

    Mr. Rosendale. Thank you, Mr. DelBene. The written 
statement of Mr. DelBene will be entered into the record. We 
are now going to proceed to questioning and I will recognize 
myself for 5 minutes.
    Mr. DelBene when everything is factored in, the White 
House's budget for OIT amounts to a 3.3 percent cut, which I 
mentioned in my opening statement. Within that development is 
being cut by 99 percent, operation and maintenance is cut and 
then plussed up by the Toxic Exposure Fund, and staffing and 
admin is increasing by about 5 percent. Do you stand by this 
budget request and what are the consequences of that going to 
be as far as the, as you said, the integration of the delivery 
of healthcare and its reliance on OIT?
    Mr. DelBene. Thank you for the question. As you know, and 
everybody knows from their own family experiences, budgets are 
challenging things that imagine--that involve tradeoffs, 
investments here, and modulation there. The Fiscal Financial 
Responsibility Act certainly creates an overall top level 
budget cap that we need to respect. We figured there are 
difficult choices that have to be made across the entire 
administration. I respect the challenges of making those cuts.
    Mr. Rosendale. How is that, Mr. DelBene, how is that going 
to impact the delivery of healthcare and this integration of 
the information and the benefits that the veterans have earned?
    Mr. DelBene. It will require us--it is a challenging budget 
for us. I will say that up front. It will require us to be very 
focused in where we invest. We have taken the initiatives that 
the administration overall wants to focus on, and we agree with 
those initiatives. The areas like cybersecurity we are 
bolstering because that is where--absolutely critical in the 
complexity of our organization in particular and the growing 
threat actors' sophistication. At the same time, what we are 
going to have to do is take the development of modernization 
funds and judiciously allocate those against the highest 
priority projects that we have.
    My goal, and I think this is accomplishable, is we will not 
hamper veteran care as a result of this. I will tell you, we 
are going to have to be very targeted in our investment.
    Mr. Rosendale. Forty, 60, and 99 percent cuts in the areas 
of IT that are going to be instrumental in making sure that we 
have smooth delivery of those services, I think you have more 
than a challenge. Again, it seems that we are shifting it over 
to payroll.
    Mr. DelBene, the cuts fall heavily on the development 
subaccount. How was that decision made? Is that something that 
you make? Is that you make these recommendations? How was that 
decision made?
    Mr. DelBene. Thanks for the question. The first thing I 
would like to address, the question of it moving over to Human 
Resources (HR). It actually is not a significant move over to 
the HR.
    Mr. Rosendale. Okay. Well, we are going to go into that 
later on.
    Mr. DelBene. I just wanted to be very clear here.
    Mr. Rosendale. How was the decision made on this funding 
being stripped away from the development subaccount?
    Mr. DelBene. Well, as you know, we submit a budget to the 
administration and there is a back-and-forth process that goes 
on.
    Mr. Rosendale. The initial submittal that you made to the 
administration, did it reflect that reduction?
    Mr. DelBene. It did not.
    Mr. Rosendale. By 99 percent.
    Mr. DelBene. It did not.
    Mr. Rosendale. Okay. What was the initial reduction that 
you recommended?
    Mr. DelBene. I would have to take that for the record to 
make sure I answer that----
    Mr. Rosendale. Please do. I would like to know what that 
original reduction was.
    Mr. DelBene. If I may, may I address one point?
    Mr. Rosendale. Let me move on. I have got a minute and 39. 
Who decided to spend nearly all the Toxic Exposure Fund dollars 
on operation and maintenance, but zero on development. Was this 
another one of your decisions?
    Mr. DelBene. No. I am glad you asked that question because 
what I wanted to clarify is this distinction between what is 
development and what is maintenance is actually a little bit 
more sophisticated than thinking--than the terms apply. We can 
do a lot of development under what we would--what would be 
called a maintenance budget because those are programs that are 
still----
    Mr. Rosendale. Mr. DelBene, that is great, but I have 
sheets here, okay, that show where--and I have to go by those 
spreadsheets. Okay? Again, who decided to spend nearly all the 
Toxic Exposure Fund dollars on operation and maintenance, but 
zero on development?
    Mr. DelBene. Well, that is what I was trying to explain 
because systems like Veterans Benefits Management System (VBMS) 
are actually established programs, we are actually enabled to 
do--what you might see as development----
    Mr. Rosendale. Are you telling me that you are actually 
using funds for development that most people are thinking are 
going to be used for operation and maintenance?
    Mr. DelBene. Not exactly. I am saying that what is defined 
as maintenance, others might think of as development, because 
it is an established program.
    Mr. Rosendale. I am going by the spreadsheet. Does the 
spreadsheet reflect information that is not accurate and that 
you are actually moving funds into development that are 
supposed to go to operation and maintenance?
    Mr. DelBene. It absolutely does not.
    Mr. Rosendale. Okay. Then we are talking about the same 
thing. Who made that decision about operations and maintenance 
and then zero going to development?
    Mr. DelBene. Well, thank you for the question. I actually 
believe that the investments we are doing on the benefit side, 
thanks to the TEF funds, are actually very robust and strong, 
and I feel very good about that. Through the use of the funds 
in the appropriate way and, as I said in my testimony, we are 
being very----
    Mr. Rosendale. Well, Mr. DelBene, your testimony, you are 
telling me that we do not understand how the funds are being 
spent. I have got a spreadsheet that says Operation and 
Maintenance, and I have got a spreadsheet that says 
Development. You are either spending it on development or you 
are not. If you are telling me that you are moving some of 
these funds around, then clearly you are not.
    With that----
    Mr. DelBene. I am not.
    Mr. Rosendale [continuing]. we are going to yield to 
Ranking Member Cherfilus-McCormick.
    Ms. Cherfilus-McCormick. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. My first 
question is for Mr. DelBene. With almost 10 percent increase in 
overall funding at VA, how do you explain the decrease in 
funding for information technology?
    Mr. DelBene. I think that there are requirements across the 
VA and where money has to be spent. There is an increase in 
demand in terms of healthcare. There is an increase in demand 
in terms of benefits. It is a balancing act where we have to 
figure out where we are going to spend the money and not. We 
will figure out how to--and we already have planning in place 
to figure out how to live within the budget that we have. As I 
said, we are going to have to make some very strict tradeoffs.
    I will also say I am very proud of how the team has come 
together to have a very clear prioritization scheme that they 
use. Whereas before we may have been allocating to a project 
that may not have been as high a priority, I feel very good 
that going into the 1925 budget, we will be able to assiduously 
assign the dollars to those most pressing needs.
    Ms. Cherfilus-McCormick. Do you think that the budget 
request is sufficient to support VA's IT requirements for today 
and into the future?
    Mr. DelBene. I do think that we will be able to address the 
critical projects that we need to address in Fiscal Year 2025 
with this budget. I--having said that, I think we are making 
some tradeoffs which will not work well if we sustain those 
over multiple years. One of them, if I may, one of them in 
particular is the modernization fund which you mentioned in 
your opening statements. That is--we are at a reduced level in 
this year, but that is going to have to be plussed up in future 
years because you cannot just continue to be at a lower level 
in terms of your modernization.
    Ms. Cherfilus-McCormick. That is my next question I was 
going to.
    Mr. DelBene. Okay.
    Ms. Cherfilus-McCormick. There are several major IT 
modernization efforts currently underway at VA. I was quite 
surprised to see the drastic cuts to the IT modernization 
budget, especially since we have had a hearing last month 
discussing yet another major modernization effort in the works. 
Is this budget request sufficient to keep all of these 
modernization efforts moving forward at their expected pace?
    Mr. DelBene. I think we are going to have to make some 
tradeoffs and we are going to have to figure out what we are 
going to reduce the funding in. I think we get a lot of--there 
is a lot of projects in place, as you say. They also come up 
every day when you all want the systems to do new things. We 
have to figure out development plans. I think the only way we 
are going to get through and the way we will get through is 
through very strict prioritization of the work that we do.
    Ms. Cherfilus-McCormick. Do you know of any projects 
offhand that you think would be traded off or deemphasized?
    Mr. DelBene. Well, the one in particular is we--if you take 
the 4-year typical lifecycle of a computer, that is about $150 
million that it would take the annual spend at our current rate 
of Personal Computers (PCs). That will be reduced fairly 
significantly, I think, to the sort of the 15-to $20 million 
level. We will replace PCs less frequently as a result. That is 
where my point is that we cannot continue to do that every 
year. I feel like with--especially with some of the funding we 
have got recently and the fact we have--the fleet has been 
updated, we can do that for 1 year and make that through, but 
we are going to have to be diligent about it in future years 
then to make sense,
    Ms. Cherfilus-McCormick. What would be the impact on 
programs such as FMBT? Will this budget cause delays in that 
project?
    Mr. DelBene. We are looking at that right now. We are--FMBT 
remains a priority for us and we are going to have to figure 
out the right funding to get there.
    Ms. Cherfilus-McCormick. How will these cuts impact the 
broader OIT mission?
    Mr. DelBene. I think we intend for it not to impact the 
broad mission. We intend to be very strict in our allocation of 
resources so that it does not impact our--the delivery of 
critical services to any of the agencies underneath the VA.
    Ms. Cherfilus-McCormick. My next question is going to be 
for Mr. Puetz. While I was grateful to see that 20 percent 
increase in the cybersecurity funding, VA remains among the 
lowest in cybersecurity funding in the Federal Government. VA 
also holds a large amount of person health information and 
personal identifiable information. How can you explain this 
disparity?
    Mr. Puetz. The investment in cybersecurity from Fiscal Year 
2024 to Fiscal Year 2025 resulted, give me one moment, please, 
resulted in a 28 percent increase, $169 million. Now, that is a 
small drop in the bucket of where we need to go with our 
cybersecurity. As more requirements are coming in from the 
National Cybersecurity Strategy from the White House, and as we 
begin to identify how cybersecurity is also part of the way we 
need to modernize, so they go hand in hand, the intent is to 
continue to move cybersecurity to the direction it needs to go 
at the VA.
    Ms. Cherfilus-McCormick. I will yield back just because my 
time has run out, and I will come back in my next questioning. 
Thank you.
    Mr. Rosendale. I would now yield 5 minutes to 
Representative Self.
    Mr. Self. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I would like to delve 
into some of the IT issues beyond the budget. Mr. DelBene, we 
have had the Change Healthcare hack and the Microsoft Exchange 
hack in the last few years. How familiar are you with the 
Executive Order 14028, which is basically improving the 
Nation's cybersecurity?
    Mr. DelBene. I am fairly familiar with that, so.
    Mr. Self. Describe how your office followed that playbook, 
which is--that is exactly what it is, it is a playbook, 
following these cyberattacks quickly.
    Mr. DelBene. Sure, let me do it--I will do it quickly. 
Basically, 14028 prescribes that we should follow a zero trust 
model. What that says is that you cannot trust your perimeter 
to be hardened defense against attackers. It has to be a 
multipronged strategy.
    I fervently believe in the zero trust model. We implemented 
it at Microsoft as well. We have been working on that model for 
the past 2 years that I have been here and so I would--and not 
just with Change Healthcare. We have actually been working on 
that well before. I think Change Healthcare and the Microsoft 
hacks both do show the vulnerability that the entire industry 
has, though, and they do draw concern to me.
    Mr. Self. When did both Change Healthcare and Microsoft 
start reporting and did they report everything required from 
these two hacks?
    Mr. DelBene. I cannot speak to whether they reported 
everything required. I will say that in both cases we expressed 
to leadership of those companies that we are disappointed at 
the transparency and the speed with which they have delivered 
information to us.
    Mr. Self. Well, you may remember that Change Healthcare 
(CHC) said there was a substantial portion of the people in 
America that may have been impacted. In fact, you notified 15 
million veterans that they could have been impacted. I think we 
have, and you just alluded to it, I think we have the same 
problem that they had with Watergate some 50 years ago. What 
did they know and when did they know it? I think today we still 
do not know what we do not know. Is that a correct statement?
    Mr. DelBene. It is different between CHC and Microsoft, and 
I say this not having spent a good portion of my career there. 
Microsoft has actually scanned through all the data, at least 
in our portion of transactions and emails, and told us what 
they have found in its entirety. CHC has not done that yet and 
we have been pushing them very hard. They basically said, as 
you say, a large portion of Americans, we believe they should 
be able to tell us what portion of those folks are and who they 
are that are veterans, if there are any. We suspect there are.
    Mr. Self. Yes, you mentioned Microsoft. The U.S. Cyber 
Safety Review Board, which was established in the executive 
order that we were just discussing, concluded that Microsoft 
committed a cascade of security failures and the company's 
security culture needs an overhaul. Did you communicate with 
anyone at Microsoft about the exchange hack and, if so, what 
did you discuss?
    Mr. DelBene. We did, and I was in that meeting as well and 
we spoke with our executive representative. Paul Lorimer is who 
I know from my Microsoft days. I will say that we were very 
blunt and direct with them about needing information from them 
on exactly what the exposure was. I am not here to defend 
Microsoft. I mean, I think for them to get hacked in this way 
is a very concerning thing.
    Mr. Self. Did you report to--well, we will get into that. I 
yield back, Mr. Chairman.
    Mr. Rosendale. Thank you very much, Representative Self. I 
now yield 5 minutes to Representative Landsman for his 
questions.
    Mr. Landsman. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank you all. I will 
be brief and sort of hand this over to you all as we sort of 
transition to the next round here.
    I just want to give you the opportunity to talk through 
anything that you felt like was not covered, that you want to 
make sure was clear. We did not hear from everyone, so please 
use this time just to clarify and, you know, express, I think, 
the intent here, which is to make the argument for these 
investments, understanding, to the chair's point, the real 
tradeoff and appreciating the tradeoff, which I suspect you all 
do.
    Mr. DelBene. Well, thank you for the question. I might--
well, one, I would say the major theme here is, as I said, 
folks need to work within budgets. We have a budget. There are 
things we can do with more funds, but we will work within the 
budget. I am proud of the fact that we have got a team now that 
actually can do that kind of math and that kind of 
prioritization, and actually that is the way we work every day. 
We always have a one to end list. We publish that one to end 
list with you all, which says rack and stack. The first highest 
priority, followed by the 150th, looks exactly like this. That 
is the capability that allows us to be able to work within an 
environment that is more fiscally austere. I think there is 
more we could do. There is more I would like to do, but I 
respect and understand how--where we are at, and I support it.
    I would like to spend some time maybe talking about, and I 
appreciate the flexibility you have given us, talk about what 
we have done in the HR space in particular, specifically 
special salary rate, which has had a significant impact. It is 
something I am actually proud of, the work we have done there. 
Maybe I will pass it over to Nate Tierney, our chief people 
officer, and have him speak a little bit about that.
    Mr. Tierney. Thank you, sir. Just to take a step back, 
whether you are in industry or in government, we went and 
looked at what does it take to get somebody to join the team? 
What are the attraction and attrition drivers in industry? What 
we found is government is no different than the private sector 
and that compensation was the top attraction and attrition 
driver. The second one followed by that is work-life balance, 
and the third is actually career tracks and development growth.
    Armed with that information, right when I became the 
executive, we partnered with four other Federal agencies to 
examine is there, in fact, a pay gap between industry and 
government? What we resulted in was that there was a pay gap of 
about 66 percent. What this means for all you is if I want to 
hire a software developer in the Federal Government, I cannot 
pay them enough to join, to get somebody to come out of your 
Amazon, your Meta, or whatever other tech organization. We had 
to do something.
    We prepared the analysis, we submitted it to U.S. Office of 
Personnel Management (OPM) in June 2023. Then on January 11th, 
the OPM approved our special salary rate with all the data and 
the tables that they--that we submitted. From that, as Mr. 
DelBene has said, we implemented, using the PACT Act 
authorities, the special salary rate. Now, here is why this is 
important. As mentioned earlier, it is the top attraction 
attrition driver. As a result of this, in the past 9 months, we 
have had an 80 percent increase in highly technical applicants 
for job announcements. We have had 48 percent fewer 
reannouncements, which means I do not have to pay the cost on 
that. We have had 64 percent less separations and 46 percent 
less retirements. This is critically important to us because 
almost 30 percent of our workforce is retirement eligible 
today.
    When we talk about some of these systems, like Veterans 
Information Systems and Technology Architecture (VistA) and 
whatnot, we have to keep those people. Not only has it helped 
us on the retention front, it is also helped us in the 
attraction front and recruiting that top tier talent to allow 
us to be competitive.
    Those are just some of the benefits of the special salary 
rate. We are continuing to monitor and keep that finger on the 
pulse and see if something else needs to be adjusted. I just 
want to say thank you for the PACT Act authorities and your 
support of being the best in government for IT.
    Mr. Landsman. Thank you. I appreciate it. I yield back.
    Mr. Rosendale. Mr. DelBene, you were talking about 
priorities. I was really glad to hear that, because we all have 
to prioritize the work that we do and the resources that we 
dedicate toward that, whether it is time and/or money. You are 
well aware of the troubles the VA.gov had and related systems 
over the past year. We have held two hearings about it. This 
budget request cuts VA.gov funding by $22 million, or 21 
percent. Please explain to me the logic about that and how then 
do you intend to provide the fixes or the improvements that 
need to be made?
    Mr. DelBene. Thanks for the question. You know, there is 
prioritization of the budget overall, but then there is within 
each project what you choose to focus on. We have talked to you 
about the challenges we have had in VA.gov, and those become 
the first and most critical things we do. I think I have been 
super consistent with the team that anything you have around 
quality, anything you have in terms of things like tracking 
applicants through the system, cybersecurity, you do those as a 
baseline before you think about adding new features. As we----
    Mr. Rosendale. The problem that we have had was not in 
cybersecurity. I truly do appreciate----
    Mr. DelBene. But----
    Mr. Rosendale. I truly do appreciate the investments that 
are being made in cybersecurity to make sure that we protect 
our veterans privacy and all of their data and information. 
What I am saying is we have been hearing massive problems about 
VA.gov.
    Mr. DelBene. Right.
    Mr. Rosendale. Okay. It has very, very necessary needs for 
fixes and improvements.
    Mr. DelBene. Sure.
    Mr. Rosendale. Explain to me how we are going to do that 
with a 21 percent cut.
    Mr. DelBene. Yes, that is--I was trying to explain is that 
we think of certain things as must haves. Cybersecurity is just 
an example of another must have. In the case of VA.gov, the 
remediations around tracking, around making sure we do not have 
those problems again, those are must haves. What it will impact 
is the speed with which we deliver new features and new 
capabilities into that project. We will have to reduce by the 
budget that amount.
    Mr. Rosendale. Basically, you are going to take the 
remaining part of that budget and focus that on actually 
repairing the system, make sure it functions properly.
    Mr. DelBene. We will make sure, first and foremost, that it 
functions properly and it is secure. Our rate of delivery of 
new features we will have to reduce----
    Mr. Rosendale. The budget request seems to prioritize 
employee salaries over everything else. In black and white that 
is what it looks like to us. That is our perception. I want to 
get into that. First, are the contracts or contractors taking 
any cuts under this budget request and, if so, who and how 
much?
    Mr. DelBene. When we do a contract, there are established 
hourly rates based on the function of those contractors. Those 
are already in place and they are based on what the market will 
bear. I do not think we would be effective in getting strong 
contractors if those rates were not successful, were not at the 
right place. You would have to----
    Mr. Rosendale. Are you telling me that you are not 
proposing any reductions in the contracts or contractors?
    Mr. DelBene. I did not say that. What I am saying is the--
--
    Mr. Rosendale. Well, that is what I am trying to get at, 
because we need to have plain language here. Are you proposing 
any reductions in the contracts or contractors and, if so, who 
and how much?
    Mr. DelBene. As you know, we use contractors quite a bit. 
It will be a necessity that the amount that we get--the work 
that we get from those contractors will have to reduce in order 
for us to meet the level of the budget in each of those 
projects.
    Mr. Rosendale. Will you be able to provide to this 
committee the contractors that you propose reductions to and 
who and how much you propose those reductions on?
    Mr. DelBene. We need to be engaged in, which we are with 
your staff, in a back-and-forth of exactly where our dollars 
are going from--or going to across the year. We are happy to 
provide that on an ongoing basis. It is going to be decisions 
that are made day to day, week to week, month to month, where 
we say this particular project, it is--we cannot do all this, 
we are going to have to do this much We--but we are happy to 
share all that with you. I believe in radical transparency.
    Mr. Rosendale. I really do not have a yes or no out of 
that, if we are going to have reductions in spending for 
contracts and contractors.
    Mr. DelBene. I am confident there will be reductions in 
spending.
    Mr. Rosendale. Okay. I would look forward to seeing those 
reductions and who they are actually being proposed to.
    Mr. Tierney, you got approval for a special salary rate for 
OIT employees in late 2022. Please explain what that entails. 
How many people were covered, how were they chosen, how large 
is it, the amount that was awarded out, and how much does it 
cost, and what is the purpose for it?
    Mr. Tierney. Thank you very much for the question. First, 
the purpose behind the special salary rate was, as I mentioned, 
was to close that pay gap between industry and Federal 
Government in order to be able to attract and retain top tier 
talent. That would be able to recruit, like, your Artificial 
Information (AI) specialist, cybersecurity, software 
developers, et cetera. That is what the purpose of it was.
    On average, it closed that pay gap, that 66 pay gap, by 
half, so it closed by about 30 percent. Each employee of our 
2210 IT specialist series received a special salary. That is 
how it was designed to do. On average, that was, I believe, a 
17 percent pay increase for those IT specialists that we had on 
board.
    Mr. Rosendale. This is the existing staff?
    Mr. Tierney. Yes, sir.
    Mr. Rosendale. Okay.
    Mr. Tierney. Yes, sir.
    Mr. Rosendale. Just clarifying.
    Mr. Tierney. Yep. I do want to mention, though, that there 
is a cap. The Federal compression of pay still limits them. If 
you are bringing in like a GS-15, step 10, they are still 
capped at the max.
    Mr. Rosendale. How many of the staff received that pay 
increase?
    Mr. Tierney. I can take that number for the record, sir, 
and get it for you, but not--if I can give you an estimate, it 
is about 7,000 employees.
    Mr. Rosendale. Clearly that was not used for recruitment. 
That was the folks that were already there. These are existing 
employees?
    Mr. Tierney. Yes, sir. Now, right now, we have about just 
over 8,000 on board. The thousand that we have been able to----
    Mr. Rosendale. My time has expired. I will now yield to 
Ranking Member Cherfilus-McCormick.
    Ms. Cherfilus-McCormick. Thank you. I would like to 
redirect my question, my previous question to Mr. DelBene.
    Mr. DelBene, pretty much what I am asking is that the 20 
percent increase for cybersecurity is, you know, impressive and 
we are happy about that. That is still the lowest funding 
throughout the whole Federal Government for cybersecurity. VA 
holds large amounts of personal information and personal 
identifiable information. What is your explanation for the 
disparity between how much we are funding VA, even though it is 
holding such information?
    Mr. DelBene. Well, thanks for the question. I do not think 
I can speak to the path of how we got here. I will say a couple 
of things. One, I am happy about the increase, as you 
mentioned. The second thing is, since I arrived, we have been 
really focused around two aspects of our cybersecurity program, 
all of it consistent with zero trust.
    The first thing is just to do better in terms of our 
certification. When a system comes up for review, for an ATO, 
authority to operate, making sure people really do a good 
analysis of----
    Ms. Cherfilus-McCormick. Well, I think, I am sorry to 
interrupt you----
    Mr. DelBene. Yes.
    Ms. Cherfilus-McCormick [continuing]. but my question 
really is, if we are looking at other government agencies, this 
is still the lowest amount of funding for cybersecurity. With 
the nature of VA holding all this personal information----
    Mr. DelBene. Right.
    Ms. Cherfilus-McCormick [continuing]. what is the disparity 
between other agencies and the VA? That is still a low number. 
As you are answering that, I guess I might give you my second 
question, also, do you think that it is adequate or do you 
think we are moving toward a more adequate number?
    Mr. DelBene. I think we are definitely moving toward a more 
adequate number. I do not think any person in my position is 
going to tell you they think that what they are spending on 
cybersecurity is adequate. It is probably the biggest concern I 
have in my role as CIO. I have a very healthy concern for 
cybersecurity.
    I cannot speak to how others are using it. What I was 
trying to--using it in other parts of the government. I will 
say we are kind of laser-focused on doing a risk-based 
analysis. We do exercises to figure out--to do red team and we 
figure out how people can actually attack ourselves. We look at 
if you look at this risk versus this risk, which is the one you 
are really worried about? That is something you have to drive 
in every employee, and I, in fact, spent time in the staff 
meeting today of saying this is everybody's responsibility to 
make sure that the systems that you review and that you manage 
are secure, which means you should be paranoid about where are 
the points of vulnerability, and you need to raise those to the 
team at large so that we can fix them.
    Ms. Cherfilus-McCormick. Do you feel that the current 
funding request for VA, for cybersecurity, is adequate to 
address the issues with securing veterans' personal health 
information and protecting the critical IT programs?
    Mr. DelBene. Well, as I said, I do not think anybody in my 
position says in security that they would not want more money, 
and I would certainly want more money for cybersecurity as 
well. I will also say, we do not put that investment everywhere 
in the same way. We look at places where there are things like 
veterans' data, and we focus there, as well as one of the high 
risk areas, because that is----
    Ms. Cherfilus-McCormick. Do you feel it is adequate, is my 
question?
    Mr. DelBene. Do I believe it is adequate? I believe we will 
be able to work within the funding that we have been--that is 
in the budget.
    Ms. Cherfilus-McCormick. How have the recent impacts on 
ransom attacks changed your perception on the need for 
increased cybersecurity spending for VA IT systems?
    Mr. DelBene. They have reinforced that with me. I am not 
new to the industry and I have seen these kinds of attacks 
before. I think it just brings home the importance of us having 
a very structured and sophisticated cybersecurity program.
    Ms. Cherfilus-McCormick. I was glad to see data prioritized 
as a key priority of the CIO in the Fiscal Year 2025 budget. 
However, I was concerned to see that only dedication of funds 
for data efforts would be directed toward standard operations 
and maintenance. I worry that this is keeping the lights on 
budget will actually be more destructive and delay the 
modernization of VA healthcare benefits delivery and IT 
infrastructure. With this budget, how is VA working to bring 
groundbreaking technology to benefit veterans while also 
balancing veterans' privacy?
    Mr. DelBene. Well, let me--the one investment I would 
highlight, and I will probably pass it over to Mr. Beard 
because he is been focusing on our data efforts in particular 
with the folks and with our chief data officer as well. I think 
we are investing and the budget has money set aside for AI. I 
think there are huge opportunities for us to transform the 
experience for veterans in the AI space, particularly on the 
healthcare space and aiding doctors and being more effective 
with their time, for example. Let me pass it over to Mr. Beard 
on the data question more broadly.
    Mr. Beard. Sure. Thank you for the interest in data, 
because it is a passion of mine. What we are focusing on in VA 
is really reuse of data, and we have a lot of data assets, but 
traditionally they have been stove piped within the Department. 
We are really focused on data sharing and making sure our 
systems talk to each other.
    As part of our ongoing development, modernization, and 
sustainment efforts, we are focusing on those key 
infrastructure portions that support our data strategy. 
Platforms, data lakes, data bricks, these are all investments 
that have already been in our budget and we are sustaining 
those, so those trajectories continue in our budget. We will 
not be able to do amazing modernization efforts in Fiscal Year 
2025, but we will be able to sustain the work we are doing on 
data interoperability and consistent definition of 
authoritative data and reuse within our environment.
    Ms. Cherfilus-McCormick. Thank you so much. I yield back.
    Mr. Rosendale. Thank you very much. Representative Self, I 
recognize you for 5 more minutes.
    Mr. Self. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. DelBene, because of 
your long history with Microsoft you had an ethics waiver to 
take your current position. Now that you have served for 2 
years, are there any restrictions in your waiver that no longer 
apply?
    Mr. DelBene. Thank you for the question. I am able to speak 
to members of Microsoft in a place that I--while not strictly 
part of the ethics restriction, we thought was good practice of 
me not reaching out to anybody in Microsoft. We still believe 
that I should do that with other folks involved, such as our 
strategic sourcing organization. Then I will not be involved in 
discussions around business relationships with Microsoft. Mr. 
Beard takes over on those mostly or----
    Mr. Self. Okay, so----
    Mr. DelBene [continuing]. exclusively.
    Mr. Self [continuing]. let us dive into the words. The 
waiver allows you to participate in particular matters of 
general applicability. It does not allow you to participate in 
particular matters involving specific parties affecting 
Microsoft. That is some pretty dense language.
    Mr. DelBene. Yes.
    Mr. Self. Can you quickly explain to us what that means?
    Mr. DelBene. I can tell you what I believe it means and I 
actually think we have over exercised beyond that as well. I 
have mostly not spoken to my past colleagues at Microsoft over 
the past 2-plus years. We have just said that is the safest 
thing for us to do.
    What it does say is that in general compute capability--
questions, like how the desktop software, that Windows 
functions, that is a general thing. Like we have a fleet of 
hundreds of thousands of PCs, I could engage in a discussion 
around what--where should that go in terms of a particular 
capability. I would never engage in a question like should we 
purchase this software from Microsoft or another one? That 
would be a specific situation where I would absolutely not be 
involved.
    Mr. Self. Who decides if it is a particular matter of 
general applicability or the other where you need to recuse 
yourself? Who makes that determination?
    Mr. DelBene. Well, in most cases, as I said, we have 
overperformed. I have just not been involved at all and--but 
generally speaking, OGC would, Office of General Counsel.
    Mr. Self. Okay. So----
    Mr. DelBene. We would, if I may, just to finish, we have an 
Office of Strategic Sourcing with Ms. Luwanda Jones, who runs 
that organization, and she is very diligent about making sure 
that I am following the confines with consultation from OGC.
    Mr. Self. How many times have you recused yourself?
    Mr. DelBene. I have not officially recused myself, but I 
have--I have basically said I am staying away from anything 
business-related to Microsoft.
    Mr. Self. Go ahead.
    Mr. Beard. Thank you, Congressman.
    Mr. Self. One more question before you--so you have no 
documentation of any recusals?
    Mr. DelBene. I have--these business relationships have 
never been in my hands. They have always been moved in Mr. 
Beard's hands, so I have had no need to actually officially 
recuse myself on paper. I have been involved in no business 
with Microsoft since I joined this organization.
    Mr. Beard. That is correct, sir. I am the agency official 
that handles all matters related to Microsoft procurement, 
sales, and our relationships with those teams. Only if there is 
an operational issue in the morning, something is broken 
overnight, Mr. DelBene leads all of those operational calls and 
talks about break-fix engineering issues. Anything that veers 
anywhere close to sales or the relationships with our contract, 
our usage of contract service, or commitment of dollars, those 
are exclusively mine. I handle them completely.
    Mr. Self. Would you say that you can cause directly or 
indirectly, Mr. DelBene, the purchase of any Microsoft product?
    Mr. DelBene. I would say I cannot and I have been very 
disciplined about it. I will tell you that the main thing I 
have done over the past 2-1/2 years has been very hard on 
Microsoft whenever they have had an operational issue.
    Mr. Self. Meaning what?
    Mr. DelBene. Meaning they are in these morning meetings and 
I call them to task when they have not performed in the way we 
expect them to.
    Mr. Self. Ah. A couple of scenarios. We have got--let me 
see, where do I want to go here? What is a Microsoft Governance 
Council?
    Mr. Beard. Mr. DelBene actually has very little knowledge 
of that because I run that. Each of the executives that report 
to me and our Chief Technology Officer (CTO) Charles 
Worthington are part of a board of experts that consider how we 
use Microsoft products and other vendor products to deliver 
outcomes for VA and for veterans.
    Mr. Self. Okay. Mr. DelBene, have you ever participated in 
any meetings or conversations referenced the Microsoft 
Governance Council?
    Mr. DelBene. No.
    Mr. Self. Then----
    Mr. DelBene. Wait. That have referenced the Microsoft or 
have been--not on any business whatsoever. I may have been in a 
meeting where somebody said there is a Microsoft Governance 
Council, I do not want to be unclear there. I have not been 
involved in any of the business relationships with Microsoft at 
all.
    Mr. Self. Mr. Chairman, I yield back. My time is up.
    Mr. Rosendale. Thank you, Mr. Self. I will now recognize 
Representative Landsman.
    Mr. Landsman. Thank you, Mr. Chair. I want to go back to 
the HR piece. Mr. Tierney, you talked about the pay inequities 
and we are seeing this across Federal agencies and government 
in general, just having a hard time keeping pace with private 
sector wages and, as a result, just not being able to get the 
workforce that we need, and you mentioned the work that you all 
have done. When you reached out, obviously compensation 
matters, work-life balance matters, I think you said growth was 
up there.
    We have heard that one of the issues has to do with the 
time it takes when somebody applies for a job to when you 
ultimately make the offer. I do not know if this is true or 
not, but in my head I have 6 months. If you could imagine if 
you are an engineer or you are somebody who has multiple, you 
know, opportunities, that is going to be an issue. Right? Pay 
is a piece, but if it takes 6 months to hear back, you may have 
lost a lot of talent in that period of time.
    I guess two questions. One is, is that an accurate 
assessment? If not, please set the record straight. If it is an 
issue, whether it is 6 months or shorter or longer, what can we 
do to be helpful? What are you all doing that should give us 
hope and/or do you need this committee to take some action to 
expedite that so that that is not issue if, in fact it is?
    Mr. Tierney. That is a great question. I read a Gartner 
article about 6 months ago, and it said for a technologist who 
is actually looking for a job, within 10 days they have three 
job offers. Our average time to hire was 146 days. That means I 
cannot be competitive, right?
    Recently, OIT did not have their HR authorities and we are 
about to get our HR authorities under 40 U.S.C., which is what 
the CIO has for IT resource management. That helps us in our 
ability to attract and retain talent. Let me be specific. My 
other title is as the chief myth-busting officer and here is 
why. I go on LinkedIn for some live events, and I say, hey, 
here is why you want to come work for us. I leverage our 
competitive brand. I mean, I am a retired veteran, and we have 
the opportunity to deliver quality IT products and services to 
veterans like myself and Tim. That matters. I go on there and I 
debunk the myths of salary, of time off, of the products we are 
working on, the data, all the healthcare data, et cetera, the 
cybersecurity. You build some excitement. Then I field 
questions, and I get about 40 to 50 questions in about a 30-
minute block. That is optimizing our offer and capitalizing on 
our value prop.
    The second thing we've done is we have optimized our search 
criteria, to your point. We leverage data now like LinkedIn 
talent insights and whatnot to source candidates into either a 
virtual or an in-person hiring event. We have led that with OPM 
and other Federal agencies with their Tech to Gov events, and 
that is yielded how we have grown our staff by about 1,000 as a 
result of this.
    Mr. Landsman. Those are pretty stark numbers. If--very 
helpful. Sorry, I did not mean to over----
    Mr. Tierney. No problem, no.
    Mr. Landsman. The 10 days for the average engineer versus 
140 in the VA, will what you just talked about get that 140 
down? If so, to what? Is there a way to get it down to 10? I 
mean, I am just, you know, for----
    Mr. Tierney. Actually, I think so, sir. With these, you 
know, these HR authorities, the deal is I lose credibility. If 
I source you to a job event and I cannot give you a job offer 
on the spot, that is not cool.
    Mr. Landsman. Okay.
    Mr. Tierney. Right? I think I can get this reduced down 
significantly. Give me an opportunity to try and I will--you 
can judge me by my results over this next fiscal year.
    Mr. Landsman. I think it would be very helpful for the 
committee to track this with you. I mean this, it seems to me, 
salary is tough. Obviously we have to be competitive, but there 
are budget restrictions and work-life balance. That is 
obviously something that you have to be able to sell. Growth is 
also, you know, more complicated, but getting that number down 
should be doable. I think it would be very helpful for, A, us 
to just see where we are every 90 days maybe, whatever you 
think is appropriate. If it is 140 now, what will it be in 90 
days? Then what we could be doing to help.
    With that, I yield back.
    Mr. Rosendale. Thank you very much, Representative 
Landsman. Mr. DelBene, you started a campaign in 2022, which we 
have been touching on, during the tech slump to hire employees 
from Silicon Valley companies. I believe you said in the press 
that you hope to hire as many as 1,000 employees. How many of 
those people were hired through this campaign?
    Mr. DelBene. Go ahead.
    Mr. Tierney. Sir, we have about 434 hired. I would like to 
caveat that with we did not have our HR authorities and we are 
only recently regaining them, so that was substantially tough 
on our team. What I mean by not having HR authorities, sir, is, 
is that meant I cannot post my own job announcement. I cannot 
do my own technical evaluation of the person to determine, yep, 
they are qualified.
    Mr. Rosendale. That was a process that was in place when 
Mr. DelBene made his statement about what his goal was.
    Mr. Tierney. Yes, sir.
    Mr. Rosendale. Okay. It was not changed. The process was 
not changed as you began this. It was the process was in place. 
You set your goal at 1,000. We have got 434. Okay.
    Mr. Tierney, what is the current average tenure of your OIT 
employees?
    Mr. Tierney. Sir, I believe the average tenure is 16 years 
right now.
    Mr. Rosendale. Sixteen years. Okay. How many employees does 
OIT have today?
    Mr. Tierney. We have about 8,000 on board. I can provide 
you the exact number this evening----
    Mr. Rosendale. Appreciate it.
    Mr. Tierney [continuing]. or tomorrow, if you do not mind.
    Mr. Rosendale. How many of those employees were hired since 
2022, when the special salary rate was created?
    Mr. Tierney. Total, I believe this Fiscal Year has been 464 
in totality. I think we have been at 1,000. I can get that 
exact number for what we have hired from July 17 of 2023 to 
present.
    Mr. Rosendale. Let me make sure I understand this. The 
increased compensation was put in place to attract new talent 
from Silicon Valley. However, to date, the funds were used to 
provide 85 percent of the existing staff with pay raises.
    Mr. DelBene. If I may----
    Mr. Rosendale. Is that accurate? Before we go off on some 
rabbit hole, is that accurate? Eighty-five percent of the 
current, roughly, employees received the increases?
    Mr. DelBene. I do not want to check the math here, but it 
is roughly correct. The point I wanted to make, though, is 
there is no way for us to increase the salary of just new 
employees within the confines----
    Mr. Rosendale. That is fine.
    Mr. DelBene. Okay.
    Mr. Rosendale. I just want to make sure that we are really 
clear that 85 percent of the existing folks who have a tenure 
of about 16 years received a 17 percent increase. Mr. DelBene, 
I understand your objective to use the special salary rate to 
make OIT a more attractive place to work and recruit new 
talent. Get it. Does that not seem--it does not seem to be what 
happened. We brought in 400 people.
    Mr. DelBene. It is a journey.
    Mr. Rosendale. The average tenure is still 16 years.
    Mr. DelBene. It is a journey. We need to--we have made 
progress in 1 year, we will make progress in the next as well. 
The point I want to make, also, is----
    Mr. Rosendale. Have we also implemented, though, like a 
freeze and when people leave, that we are not bringing new 
employees in?
    Mr. DelBene. What we do is, because of the tightness of 
headcount, we evaluate every position as it becomes available. 
If I may, I want to make sure it is clear the employees at 
the--in OIT deserve that increase as well. These are people 
that are committed to serving----
    Mr. Rosendale. Mr. DelBene, not arguing that.
    Mr. DelBene. Okay.
    Mr. Rosendale. Okay? What I am trying to do, though, is 
make sure that the general public that is watching this 
understands that there are things that are being done to drive 
a lot of your budget into the HR department. Mr. DelBene, 
please.
    Mr. DelBene. It is just not that much of the budget.
    Mr. Rosendale. A lot of money is being driven into the HR 
department and we are starting to starve the very, very purpose 
of your department, which is technology. Okay? I am afraid, as 
I am looking forward, because I have seen this scenario play 
out, that what you are doing is betting on Congress. You are 
betting on your increases coming through. You are going to go 
and what we are seeing here in this budget is a starving of the 
actual purpose of your department, technology, and we are 
plussing up HR, and that is creating a long-term problem.
    With that, I am going to yield to----
    Mr. DelBene. If I may?
    Mr. Rosendale [continuing]. Ranking Member Cherfilus-
McCormick.
    Ms. Cherfilus-McCormick. Mr. DelBene, you may continue.
    Mr. DelBene. Thank you. The SSR is not a significant 
portion of our budget in the absolute terms. I would do it 
again because we need the best. The most important resource we 
have as an organization, bar none, is our people.
    Ms. Cherfilus-McCormick. Thank you, Mr. DelBene. My 
question goes back to my concerns about this keep the lights on 
budget, especially since we are focusing on the standard 
operations and maintenance budget. Now, how are you going to--
is there enough money in this budget? Do you believe that it is 
adequate for mitigating and preventing against future attacks 
for the VA and also its partner systems, like the one we saw 
with Change Healthcare in February?
    Mr. DelBene. I do not think, and I am not trying to avoid 
the question, I do not think there is ever--you cannot take an 
amount and say, as a result of that amount, we have barred 
every--that we have prevented every potential incursion. Some 
of the stuff we do does not actually require incremental 
investment. I will say, and I think most CIOs in this position 
would say they would like more for cybersecurity, and I would 
say that, too. I am very happy that we are making the 
incremental investments. I was just telling my team before, as 
I mentioned before, the first thing you need to do, and do not 
do any new features until you make sure that you are secure as 
an organization.
    Ms. Cherfilus-McCormick. Well, I guess----
    Mr. DelBene. Regardless, it is the top priority.
    Ms. Cherfilus-McCormick. Well, I guess my question really 
is, since the budget is really focusing on maintaining and 
keeping everything intact, if there is a cyber attack, how 
would you--is there any money there to mitigate for not just 
the VA, but also----
    Mr. DelBene. Oh, to mitigate.
    Ms. Cherfilus-McCormick [continuing]. yes, to mitigate any 
cyber attacks?
    Mr. DelBene. We would shift people off of what they are 
doing to mitigate as the absolute highest priority. There is 
nothing higher than if you are in the middle of an incident, it 
is all hands on deck. That is all you worry about.
    Ms. Cherfilus-McCormick. There is funding that you can 
shift for those situations?
    Mr. DelBene. We would basically--we would stop a lot of 
stuff. We would--in this one to end list, a bunch of stuff 
would fall down the list, and the cyber, the mitigation work 
would be the number one thing we would do. Absolutely.
    Ms. Cherfilus-McCormick. What is preventing the VA from 
making improvements in standing on the Federal Information 
Security Modernization (FISMA) audits?
    Mr. DelBene. Oh, that is a complicated question. I think 
FISMA as a process is very broad and more of a compliance 
exercise than it is a risk-based analysis of the places where 
you have the greatest risk. I have talked to everybody who will 
listen about this question. It needs to get more focused on 
where the biggest risks are. In that kind of world, where it is 
compliance-based, it becomes super easy to find those places of 
``weakness'' by the numbers.
    What we focus on, and I have a very good relationship with 
Office of Inspector General (OIG) in this area, I look through 
what they found and say, which are the ones I really care about 
that impact our security in particular? Those are the ones that 
we focus on for the team. There is a bunch of other stuff that 
it is like, yep, strictly speaking, you have got me.
    I will also say that, historically, we have been an 
organization that has a lot of--that did security by policy, 
not by risk analysis. What you get when you have an 
organization that does that is you get a lot of policy and not 
all that policy actually can be implemented universally and not 
all of that policy is necessary in terms of being the highest 
risk things. We have shifted toward doing analysis of real risk 
that could potentially lead to an attack.
    Ms. Cherfilus-McCormick. What resources do you need to gain 
ground in this area?
    Mr. DelBene. It is a mixture of resources. What is called 
the ISSO, the information security officer, is probably the 
boots on the ground that need to look at each and every system. 
I need to upskill those folks and they are energized to do so. 
They need to be the first point of contact that says, I 
understand my system, I understand the gaps in my system.
    I think the other place that I have really pushed hard on 
is having external people try to come into the system. Against 
our knowledge, we will be monitoring everything as we do. These 
what are called red teams, I believe a lot that red teams are 
an important part of your security posture. Those are typically 
best done by external folks. They are also very expensive 
resources. We just have to make the money and the funds 
available in the budget for things like red teams.
    Ms. Cherfilus-McCormick. How would you evaluate the risk 
right now for a cyber attack to the VA?
    Mr. DelBene. It is a hard one to answer. I am never happy 
with our cyber posture and any good CIO would tell you the same 
thing.
    Ms. Cherfilus-McCormick. Do you feel that it has increased 
or decreased?
    Mr. DelBene. Do I feel that is increased or decreased? I 
think under--hard to say. It is a subjective measure. I think 
we have improved our cyber posture over the past couple years.
    Ms. Cherfilus-McCormick. Thank you. I yield back.
    Mr. Rosendale. Thank you very much, Ranking Member. I will 
now recognize Representative Self.
    Mr. Self. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. DelBene, so you have 
told us that there are Microsoft executives in morning 
meetings. You have told us that you have been tough on 
Microsoft on actual contract performance. You have told us that 
there has been no official recusal. You have told us that there 
is no documentation of any official recusal. I remind you, sir, 
that you are under oath. How in heaven's name is not that at 
least indirect, if not direct, influence over actual Microsoft 
contracts from what you have told us this afternoon?
    Mr. DelBene. I am highly confident I have had no influence 
on Microsoft's--acquisitions of Microsoft products from the VA. 
Highly confident.
    Mr. Self. You are narrowly saying acquisition. I am talking 
about influence over contracts.
    Mr. DelBene. The presumption that I spent my career in 
Microsoft and would not be objective, relative to the 
commitment I have made to this organization, I just do not 
accept. They are my previous employer.
    Mr. Self. It is not presumption, Mr. DelBene. You have 
testified to this committee to that effect.
    Mr. Chairman, I yield back.
    Mr. Rosendale. Mr. Tierney, how much has OIT ceiling for 
full-time equivalent employees (FTE) been reduced since the 
special salary rate went into effect?
    Mr. Tierney. Sir, the number we are using, and, Tim, please 
confirm, for this Fiscal Year is 8,150 FTE is what we are 
looking for this year. As I mentioned, we have about 8,000 on 
board. With the Fiscal Year 2025 budget, we believe that number 
goes to 8,310. Tim, do you want to confirm that?
    Mr. Puetz. That is correct.
    Mr. Rosendale. Walk through that again. You are----
    Mr. Tierney. I apologize. Maybe I am not understanding the 
question, sir, in terms of whether the headcount reduced.
    Mr. Rosendale. I am trying to figure out where the--what 
you are doing with your FTEs. Your ceiling for full-time 
equivalent employees, your ceiling, has been reduced since the 
special salary rate went into effect, has it not?
    Mr. Tierney. Yes. Yes, it has. Let me get the numbers.
    Mr. Puetz. Let me answer your question, Congressman. We 
reduced approximately 800 people based on what the equivalent 
cost of the special salary rate would be. It was approximately 
$140 to $160 million for the SSR, as we talked about, 7,000 
employees to drive that 17 percent increase.
    Mr. Rosendale. I am just trying to get the FTEs that you 
have reflected in your budget before the awards went into place 
and where they are now. Before they went into place, the FTEs, 
the ceiling for your FTEs. I understand what is actually there 
at any given day fluctuates, but your ceiling, you have asked 
for a reduction in the ceiling, correct?
    Mr. Beard. Congressman, if I could, please. At the time 
that we made the determination to implement the special salary 
rate, we did not have the--we had a ceiling number based on 
funds' availability. We decided as an executive team at a 
strategic offsite, all 40 executives in the Office of 
Information and Technology talked through the tradeoffs, and 
intentionally we decided as a team that we were going to go for 
implementation of the special salary rate and intentionally 
reduce our available headcount. We did not have bodies in those 
billets, so no one was riffed. We did that strategically as a 
leadership team in order to recruit better talent and to reward 
the talent we had on board.
    As you know, all the money in the world that brings in new 
equipment, printers, computers, they do not deploy themselves 
at hospitals and clinics around the country. We need talented 
staff out in the field in order to do that. Starving salary for 
staff in order to do modernization, we have to do a balance 
between that, and that is what we do as a leadership team. We 
think through these issues and we work very hard to make solid 
tradeoffs that support services.
    Mr. Rosendale. I understand that. This committee, what our 
understanding was is that there was going to be a demand for 
additional staff, not higher compensation for the existing 
staff, but there was going to be a high demand for additional 
staff in order to implement all of this administrative process 
that was going to be generated by the PACT Act. That is what we 
were told. That is what we were told. Meanwhile, what I see is 
that we have got a ceiling FTE cap at 8,150 now. Mr. Tierney, 
you issued a memo on November 16, 2023, setting a headcount of 
8,270 and instituting several procedures to restrict new 
hiring.
    What was the authorized headcount when the special salary 
rate went into effect? What was the headcount at that point?
    Mr. Tierney. For that Fiscal Year in July 2023, and I can 
confirm the number, we were shooting for, 8,668, I believe, was 
the authorized headcount we were trying for.
    Mr. Rosendale. 8,668.
    Mr. Tierney. Yes, sir.
    Mr. Rosendale. Okay. Again, this is where I am trying to 
peel this onion back. We are being told as a committee that we 
are going to need these additional sales. I understand 
compensating people properly. I understand trying to attract 
talent. What we are being told is that we have to have these 
additional FTEs to make sure that this process is working. What 
is the authorized headcount for OIT employees today? What is 
it?
    Mr. Tierney. 8,150, sir.
    Mr. Rosendale. Okay. The OIT budget request, total full-
time equivalents for 2024 are 8,243 plus 139 from the Toxic 
Exposure Fund. That is 8,382. It also says for 2025, there are 
8,405 plus 139 from the Toxic Exposure Fund. That is 8,544. 
That is what is in the budget request. How do you reconcile 
those numbers with the authorized headcount in your memo that 
is asking for 8,150?
    Mr. DelBene. If I may, I suggest let us go back and work 
with your staff to get you the numbers that you are looking 
for. I mean----
    Mr. Rosendale. I would appreciate that because the budget 
request, again, is looking at 8,382 and what you are saying--
and we have a memo that shows that you are trying to hold it at 
8,150.
    Mr. DelBene. Again, we are probably better off if we get 
you the exact numbers that you are looking for. 8,150 is the 
current number, 83 whatever that number is, is what is in the 
budget per se. We can--let us work with your staff and get you 
the numbers that you are looking for.
    Mr. Rosendale. Mr. DelBene, it appears that rather than 
expanding the workforce, that your office is struggling to 
afford the special salary rate and is throttling back hiring 
and cutting the workforce. The payroll is continuing to grow as 
the workforce itself is shrinking and, again, as we get these 
demands saying we have to have the additional staff.
    Mr. DelBene. Well, the request for additional staff is 
fairly modest in this budget. I will say that the staff has not 
shrunk and that is why you mentioned the memo that Nate put out 
that basically went through the process of how you get a 
position reapproved. That is--the goal there is to shape the 
organization and put that headcount where it is most impactful 
to the mission. I do think we have an opportunity to take some 
particular roles that are less impactful and, as they turn 
over, put them on jobs that are more impactful for the 
organization.
    I will also say I would do the special salary rate again 
even if we have to find room for it. As you mentioned and as 
others have mentioned, you have to pay people appropriately and 
based on at least trying to get things closer to the 
marketplace.
    Mr. Rosendale. Mr. DelBene, I appreciate that. I am well 
over my time and I apologize. The fact of the matter is I am 
very concerned that you are directing all these funds into HR. 
You are starving these other sections and then you are going to 
come back and ask for a supplemental or use some of these 
fungible funds that you are describing.
    With that, I yield to Ranking Member Cherfilus-McCormick.
    Ms. Cherfilus-McCormick. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. 
DelBene, this subcommittee has been paying close attention to 
VA's efforts to address this tech debt. I am concerned when I 
saw the 65 percent cut to the infrastructure readiness program. 
It is hard to see this lack of prioritization return. How is 
the aging infrastructure impacting the work of the frontline 
staff?
    Mr. DelBene. I think--as I said earlier, I do not think the 
reduction that we have done to the infrastructure readiness 
program can be sustained over multiple years. I actually think 
we will be okay to do that for this 1 year of the budget 
because we have made investments in the IRP over multiple years 
leading up to that.
    There was a comment made earlier about 10 minutes for a PC 
to boot. We have statistics on the boot time of all PCs every 
day in the VA. That, I do not even know that that is--when we 
talk about long times for boot, we talk about 5 minutes, which 
I am unhappy with, but they are not as significant as what was 
implied. We do that because we have invested in technology that 
monitors the performance of end users.
    Right now, end users are pretty happy with the PCs and the 
compute experience. They give us very high marks for that in 
terms of their customer satisfaction. I think we will be okay 
in this year of execution. I do not think it is sustainable 
over multiple years.
    Ms. Cherfilus-McCormick. How will this cut impact VA's 
effort to address the years of neglect of its IT 
infrastructure?
    Mr. DelBene. With this, we will have to push out some of 
that IT infrastructure modernization. I think that is a 
challenge we are going to live with.
    Ms. Cherfilus-McCormick. What is your plan to get the IRP 
back on track, and how many years will that take?
    Mr. DelBene. Well, as I said, I think because we have had 
multiple years where it is been in good shape, I think we are 
okay. I think I will have to come to you all with the next 
budget and say that is a number that we cannot cut again. You 
have my commitment that you will--that I will come back to you 
with that sort of an ask.
    Ms. Cherfilus-McCormick. If we had approximately how many 
years do you think, would that be next year's budget? The 
following year?
    Mr. DelBene. Well, we are talking about the 2025 budget 
here. I think we cannot--I do not think I would support a 
sustainment of that kind of a cut over multiple years.
    Ms. Cherfilus-McCormick. Just for this year then?
    Mr. DelBene. I think we can--I think we can deal with it 
with this year. Yes.
    Ms. Cherfilus-McCormick. Thank you. I yield back.
    Mr. Rosendale. That brings us to the conclusion of our 
hearing. Would you like to, Mrs. Cherfilus-McCormick, go into 
your closing statements?
    Ms. Cherfilus-McCormick. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I 
appreciate the testimony and answers from our witnesses this 
afternoon. Our time today has been important to highlight an 
expansive, but often under-recognized aspect of providing high-
class healthcare to veterans, VA's IT infrastructure. I have 
serious concerns that the budget we have discussed today, when 
primarily focused on keeping the lights on, will diminish VA's 
ability to be effective in its mission. I worry that by not 
prioritizing VA's aging IT infrastructure, we are doing a 
disservice to veterans as well as those faithful servants 
dedicated to VA's numerous ongoing modernization efforts, like 
VBMS, FMBT, and digital GI Bill. I look forward to working with 
the chairman and VA to ensure that VA is well prepared for the 
future.
    Last, I would like to add something to the chairman's 
remarks regarding the timeliness of VA's testimony. I do not 
want to speak out of turn, but I think one common goal among 
all party here is to strive for collaboration and transparency. 
Receiving the testimony for this hearing a mere 3 hours before 
we begin is not productive to a collaborative or transparent 
conversation. I hope we can work forward in improving this 
communication moving forward.
    Thank you so much, and I yield back.
    Mr. Rosendale. Thank you very much, Ranking Member. I want 
to thank our witnesses for joining us this afternoon. I do not 
think that anyone in this room believes the VA information and 
technology budget requests would be helpful or improve service 
for our veterans. The administration decided to reallocate a 
modest amount of money away from OIT to other parts of the VA. 
I can understand that, but it is extremely disappointing that 
whoever wrote this budget request designed the cuts in the most 
lopsided, damaging way possible. This is not a haircut. This is 
a lobotomy to a few of the office's core capabilities. I would 
like to see a successful project get rewarded and failing 
projects be terminated. Slashing half the funding for some of 
the key systems that have been struggling is a recipe for 
disaster.
    It is also disappointing that the Toxic Exposure Fund is 
merely being used to plug budget holes when the bureaucracy 
finds it convenient, not to boost the VA's ability to serve 
toxic exposed veterans as Congress intended. I have already 
been in conversations with my colleagues over in the Senate to 
have that conversation.
    I am very concerned that the special salary rate, which may 
have been well intended, will become completely unaffordable 
when combined with this budget and undermine the organization. 
This situation risks spinning out of control. I am not going to 
tolerate the VA workforce being hollowed out while the 
contractors escape untouched, so I will be waiting to hear that 
information from you as well, Mr. DelBene.
    The subcommittee will keep a close eye on OIT's budget and 
management over the course of this year. We expect VA to 
deliver the modern, user-friendly tools to help veterans access 
the care and benefits that they have earned. We cannot let the 
bureaucratic politics in Washington get in the way of that.
    I ask unanimous consent that all members have 5 legislative 
days to revise and extend their remarks and include extraneous 
material. With no objection, this hearing is adjourned.
    [Whereupon, at 5:55 p.m., the subcommittee was adjourned.]

      
      
      
      
      
      
      
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                     Prepared Statement of Witness

                              ----------                              

                   Prepared Statement of Kurt DelBene

Introduction

    Chairman Rosendale, Ranking Member Cherfilus-McCormick, and 
distinguished Members of the Subcommittee, thank you for the 
opportunity to testify in support of the President's Fiscal Year (FY) 
2025 Budget Information Technology (IT) request for the Department of 
Veterans Affairs, and for your longstanding support of Veterans and 
their families. I am accompanied by Mr. Dewaine Beard, Principal Deputy 
Assistant Secretary for Information and Technology and Deputy CIO, Dr. 
Timothy Puetz, OIT's Chief Financial Officer and Deputy CIO for IT 
Budget and Finance, and Mr. Nathan Tierney, OIT's Chief People Officer 
and Deputy CIO for the Office of People Science.

FY 2025 Budget Request

    VA is committed to providing Veterans a seamless, secure, and 
unified digital experience through state-of-the-art technology. 
Technology has become the very foundation of VA's ability to deliver 
its mission and to continue to provide world-class care and benefits to 
more Veterans than ever before. The President's Fiscal Year 2025 Budget 
provides $7.6 billion for VA IT systems and telecommunications support, 
including $6.2 billion in base discretionary funding. In addition, 
there is $1.4 billion in mandatory Toxic Exposures Fund (TEF) funding 
to continue the modernization of systems as authorized under the PACT 
Act of 2022. OIT will make focused IT investments in cybersecurity, the 
IT workforce, and modernization,.
    The total Fiscal Year 2025 Budget for IT is $49 million (0.6 
percent) below the Fiscal Year 2024 enacted level. Base discretionary 
funding for IT is $169 million (2.6 percent) below the Fiscal Year 2024 
enacted level, while TEF funding is $121 million (9.7 percent) above 
the Fiscal Year 2024 enacted level. The Fiscal Year 2025 staffing and 
administrative support services request of $1.686 billion funds 8,310 
FTE, which is 160 FTE (2.0 percent) above the Fiscal Year 2024 enacted 
level. The Fiscal Year 2025 Budget provides $670 million for 
cybersecurity and VA's Zero Trust acceleration efforts, a $118 million 
(21 percent) increase in base funding relative to the Fiscal Year 2024 
enacted level. OIT will bridge the Fiscal Year 2024 enacted level to 
the Fiscal Year 2025 Budget request to ensure consistent support of key 
initiatives. Where practical, OIT will accelerate certain investments 
in Fiscal Year 2024 based on the operating plan and scale back other 
investments and technology roadmaps to ensure we have an investment 
plan that balances resources with key initiatives to support continuity 
in Veteran health care and benefits and represents a consistent 
strategy across the two fiscal years.
    To successfully execute the Fiscal Year 2025 Budget, VA will 
continue to manage its IT budget with transparency. OIT is taking a 
critical look at legacy projects, established programs, and newly 
proposed programs. We are evaluating the value that those projects 
bring to mission delivery and determining if those funds can be better 
used elsewhere - especially in the areas of IT modernization, cyber 
security, and IT workforce which are vital in maintaining VA's digital 
transformation efforts in pursuit of more efficient and impactful 
service delivery to our Veterans.
    The TEF funding from Congress is instrumental in furthering VA's IT 
modernization efforts. OIT has exercised extreme discipline in 
allocating TEF investments, ensuring a strong relationship between IT 
and the delivery of health care and benefits related to toxic exposures 
when modernizing related IT systems. We recognize the necessity of 
tradeoffs and remain committed to strategic scrutiny of where we deploy 
investments.

Cybersecurity

    When Veterans leverage technology to access VA services, they trust 
that the underlying digital ecosystem is safe, reliable, and secure. 
For this reason, OIT has maintained cybersecurity as a priority for 
Fiscal Year 2025.
    The Fiscal Year 2025 Budget provides $670 million for cybersecurity 
and VA's Zero Trust acceleration efforts, a $118 million (21 percent) 
increase in base funding relative to the Fiscal Year 2024 enacted 
level. This will help us to deliver a robust and resilient security 
posture for the nine million Veterans using VA for care and benefits 
and the hundreds of thousands of VA employees and contractors who 
access our network every day.

IT Workforce

    The Fiscal Year 2025 staffing and administrative support services 
request of $1.686 billion funds 8,310 FTE, which is 160 full-time 
equivalent employees (FTE) (2.0 percent) above the Fiscal Year 2024 
enacted level. As VA prioritizes key IT investments, we must also 
recruit, retain, and upskill our current IT workforce of over 8,000 
FTEs. VA is working hard to modernize its workforce with targeted 
talent strategies, such as hiring for cybersecurity and artificial 
intelligence skills, continuous talent development, incentives, and 
focused field staff expansion to support Veteran health and benefits 
mission growth.

IT Modernization

    IT modernization is essential for achieving our goal of creating a 
21st Century VA, where VA stands at the forefront of delivering 
Veterans a seamless digital experience. VA will prioritize these funds 
on the most essential modernization initiatives that bolster the 
Department's ability to serve Veterans. VA's model of addressing IT 
improvements incrementally rather than via large system replacement 
projects will help us manage IT spend, reduce vulnerability to cyber 
security threats, and strategically scale IT modernization.

Conclusion

    Chairman Rosendale, Ranking Member Cherfilus-McCormick, and Members 
of the Subcommittee, thank you for the opportunity to appear today. 
This subcommittee understands the value and importance Information 
Technology brings to the Veteran through health care and benefits. We 
remain responsible stewards of our funding and committed to maximizing 
the effectiveness of our investments throughout VA's enterprise. I look 
forward to our continued work with this Subcommittee to address our 
greatest priorities in our digital transformation in Fiscal Year 2025. 
This concludes my testimony, and I look forward to answering your 
questions.

                        Statement for the Record

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   U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs Response to Questions for the 
                                 Record

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