[House Hearing, 118 Congress]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]


                         LEGISLATIVE HEARING ON
              H.R. 6656; H.R. 7323; H.R. XXXX; H.R. XXXX;.
       H.R. XXXX; H.R. 6225; H.R. XXXX; H.R. XXXX; AND H.R. XXXX

=======================================================================

                                HEARING

                               BEFORE THE

                  SUBCOMMITTEE ON ECONOMIC OPPORTUNITY

                                 OF THE

                     COMMITTEE ON VETERANS' AFFAIRS

                     U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

                    ONE HUNDRED EIGHTEENTH CONGRESS

                             SECOND SESSION

                               __________

                       WEDNESDAY, MARCH 20, 2024

                               __________

                           Serial No. 118-54

                               __________

       Printed for the use of the Committee on Veterans' Affairs
       
[GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]       


                    Available via http://govinfo.gov
                    
                                __________

                   U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE                    
56-145                     WASHINGTON : 2025                  
          
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------     
                  
                     COMMITTEE ON VETERANS' AFFAIRS

                     MIKE BOST, Illinois, Chairman

AUMUA AMATA COLEMAN RADEWAGEN,       MARK TAKANO, California, Ranking 
    American Samoa, Vice-Chairwoman      Member
JACK BERGMAN, Michigan               JULIA BROWNLEY, California
NANCY MACE, South Carolina           MIKE LEVIN, California
MATTHEW M. ROSENDALE, SR., Montana   CHRIS PAPPAS, New Hampshire
MARIANNETTE MILLER-MEEKS, Iowa       FRANK J. MRVAN, Indiana
GREGORY F. MURPHY, North Carolina    SHEILA CHERFILUS-MCCORMICK, 
C. SCOTT FRANKLIN, Florida               Florida
DERRICK VAN ORDEN, Wisconsin         CHRISTOPHER R. DELUZIO, 
MORGAN LUTTRELL, Texas                   Pennsylvania
JUAN CISCOMANI, Arizona              MORGAN MCGARVEY, Kentucky
ELIJAH CRANE, Arizona                DELIA C. RAMIREZ, Illinois
KEITH SELF, Texas                    GREG LANDSMAN, Ohio
JENNIFER A. KIGGANS, Virginia        NIKKI BUDZINSKI, Illinois

                       Jon Clark, Staff Director
                  Matt Reel, Democratic Staff Director

                  SUBCOMMITTEE ON ECONOMIC OPPORTUNITY

                 DERRICK VAN ORDEN, Wisconsin, Chairman

NANCY MACE, South Carolina           MIKE LEVIN, California Ranking 
C. SCOTT FRANKLIN, Florida               Member
JUAN CISCOMANI, Arizona              FRANK J. MRVAN, Indiana
ELIJAH CRANE, Arizona                MORGAN MCGARVEY, Kentucky
                                     DELIA C. RAMIREZ, Illinois

Pursuant to clause 2(e)(4) of Rule XI of the Rules of the House, public 
hearing records of the Committee on Veterans' Affairs are also 
published in electronic form. The printed hearing record remains the 
official version. Because electronic submissions are used to prepare 
both printed and electronic versions of the hearing record, the process 
of converting between various electronic formats may introduce 
unintentional errors or omissions. Such occurrences are inherent in the 
current publication process and should diminish as the process is 
further refined.
                         C  O  N  T  E  N  T  S

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                       WEDNESDAY, MARCH 20, 2024

                                                                   Page

                           OPENING STATEMENTS

The Honorable Derrick Van Orden, Chairman........................     1
The Honorable Mike Levin, Ranking Member.........................     2

                               WITNESSES
                                Panel 1

Ms. Melissa Cohen, Executive Director of Outreach, Transition, 
  and Economic Development, Veterans Benefits Administration, 
  Department of Veterans Affairs.................................     4

        Accompanied by:

    Mr. Nathan Sanfilippo, Executive Director of Multichannel 
        Technology, Veterans Experience Office, Department of 
        Veterans Affairs

    Mr. Thomas Alphonso, Assistant Director of Education 
        Services, Veterans Benefits Administration, Department of 
        Veterans Affairs

Mr. James Rodriguez, Assistant Secretary for Veterans' Employment 
  and Training Service, Department of Labor......................     5

                                Panel 2

Ms. Nadine Bullock-Pottinga, Chief Development Officer, Hire 
  Heroes USA.....................................................    11

Mr. Gregory John, Founder & President, Infinity Flight Group.....    13

Mr. Matthew Schwartzman, Director, Legislation and Military 
  Policy, Reserve Organization of America........................    14

Ms. Kristina Keenan, Deputy Director, National Legislative 
  Service, Veterans of Foreign Wars..............................    16

Mr. Marquis Barefield, Assistant National Legislative Director, 
  Disabled American Veterans.....................................    17

                                APPENDIX
                    Prepared Statements Of Witnesses

Ms. Melissa Cohen Prepared Statement.............................    31
Mr. James Rodriguez Prepared Statement...........................    38
Ms. Nadine Bullock-Pottinga Prepared Statement...................    43
Mr. Gregory John Prepared Statement..............................    45
Mr. Matthew Schwartzman Prepared Statement.......................    45
Ms. Kristina Keenan Statement....................................    57
Mr. Marquis Barefield Prepared Statement.........................    60

                       Statements For The Record

USAA Federal Savings Bank Prepared Statement.....................    65
Veterans Education Success Prepared Statement....................    66

                          APPENDIX--continued

Disabled American Veterans Prepared Statement....................    74
Joint Letter from RecruitMilitary, Orion Talent, Military Talent 
  Pipeline, LLC, Semper Forward, and ZeroMils....................    75
The American Legion Prepared Statement...........................    77
The Honorable Ken Calvert, U.S. House of Representatives, (CA-42) 
  Prepared Statement.............................................    85
Questions for the Record Submitted by The Honorable Juan 
  Ciscomani for Melissa Cohen....................................    86
Answers to Questions for the Record Submitted to Melissa Cohen...    87
Questions for the Record Submitted by The Honorable Juan 
  Ciscomani for James Rodriguez..................................    90
Questions for the Record Submitted by The Honorable Juan 
  Ciscomani for Nadine Bullock-Pottinga..........................    91
Questions for the Record Submitted by The Honorable Juan 
  Ciscomani for Kristina Keenan..................................    92

 
                         LEGISLATIVE HEARING ON
              H.R. 6656; H.R. 7323; H.R. XXXX; H.R. XXXX;
       H.R. XXXX; H.R. 6225; H.R. XXXX; H.R. XXXX; AND H.R. XXXX

                              ----------                              


                       WEDNESDAY, MARCH 20, 2024

             U.S. House of Representatives,
              Subcommittee on Economic Opportunity,
                            Committee on Veterans' Affairs,
                                                    Washington, DC.
    The subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 10:41 a.m., in 
room 360, Cannon House Office Building, Hon. Derrick Van Orden 
(chairman of the subcommittee) presiding.
    Present: Representatives Van Orden, Levin, McGarvey, and 
Ramirez.

        OPENING STATEMENT OF DERRICK VAN ORDEN, CHAIRMAN

    Mr. Van Orden. Subcommittee will come to order. I welcome 
the witnesses and subcommittee members to today's hearing. As I 
have often said in the subcommittee, this is not a bipartisan 
committee. This is a non-partisan committee, and it will remain 
as such. We owe that to the people that served our Nation.
    We have got nine important legislative proposals to 
consider here today. It is important note that not all of the 
proposals will move forward in this process. The purpose of 
this hearing is to hear from individuals with expertise on the 
various legislative proposals so that we can make informed 
decisions about whether to move these bills forward. The 
valuable insight provided by these stakeholders and agencies is 
essential to the work of the subcommittee, and a number of 
these proposals seek to improve education programs for 
America's veterans and ensure that GI Bill dollars are being 
used responsibly.
    One of the bills being proposed by the chairman of the 
committee would expand the existing authorities of the Veterans 
Affairs (VA) Secretary to disapprove schools that are guilty of 
fraud or misrepresentation, and I strongly support this bill. 
This expanded authority will allow the secretary to restore 
benefits and recoup costs for veterans who are defrauded. We 
have considered other proposals to restore benefits in 
situations where there are allegations of fraud. However, this 
is the first proposal that is rooted in the VA authority and 
includes the necessary due process for schools.
    I specifically want to highlight two bills that I am 
offering for consideration as well. One bill would allow 
individuals using their Montgomery GI Bill gained through 
service in the Selective Reserve to utilize in-state tuition 
waiver for attending schools in neighboring states. As of now, 
they are not part of the waiver in the statute, and I think it 
is a logical expansion of existing authority that allows 
reciprocity between states. We have got to remember that our 
Selective Reserves and our National Guard folks, the enemy does 
not care. They see an American flag on your shoulder and they 
will target you as such. We just learned this with our three 
brave soldiers that were killed earlier in Jordan.
    My other bill, up for discussion today, makes improvements 
to the Transition Assistance Program (TAP) for servicemembers 
leaving the military. This legislation would require data 
collection on the experience of transitioning servicemembers. 
We need to have a better understanding of how we are preparing 
our military members and their families for civilian life. 
Certain branches are doing TAP better, and certain groups 
within branches are doing TAP better. Naval special warfare has 
an outstanding 24 month program, and I want to make sure that 
we can leverage the lessons learned and promulgate the best 
practices across the board.
    At this hearing, we will also explore legislation that 
would encourage VA to create a callback system instead of 
putting callers on hold. This type of technology is widely 
available and I do not know why we are not doing this now. It 
is just silly. I have reservations about some proposals in the 
agenda today, I will be frank.
    The witness's testimony and questions to the members of the 
subcommittee are very important that we hear those answers from 
the questions asked by my fellow members. We look forward to 
hearing from members who have introduced these proposals, as 
well as our witnesses on how we can continue to improve these 
bills and create more economic opportunities for veterans.
    I will now yield to ranking member for 5 minutes for his 
opening remarks.

        OPENING STATEMENT OF MIKE LEVIN, RANKING MEMBER

    Mr. Levin. Thank my friend the chairman for holding this 
legislative hearing on nine pieces of legislation. I would like 
to start out by highlighting a few of the bills on the agenda 
that illustrate our continued efforts to deliver more results. 
That is what this is all about, is delivering results.
    First, I would like to thank Ranking Member Takano for his 
work-study expansion bill, which would provide more 
opportunities for veterans to participate in work-study in 
Congress.
    Next, Representative Davis' Bill of Veterans Employment 
Readiness Yield Act of 2024 will remove antiqued terms from the 
Veterans Readiness and Employment (VR&E) program statutes. My 
hope is that the change in language will encourage more 
veterans with service connected disabilities to participate in 
the VR&E program.
    We also have legislation related to the VA Home Loan 
program, which is a critical resource for servicemembers and 
veterans wanting to own a home. The path to home ownership 
should be more accessible with the goal of ensuring more 
individuals can buy quality, affordable homes. Representative 
Ryan's bill would do just, that by allowing National Guard and 
Reserve members to access the program, and Representative 
Meng's Fair Access to Co-ops for Veterans Act would expand the 
program to include residential cooperative housing.
    Shifting to education I was surprised to see legislation 
regarding restoration of GI Bill benefits on the agenda 
considering this committee marked up a more comprehensive 
restoration bill from Representative Ramirez last July, and 
that bill is still awaiting for consideration. I want to be 
clear. I support the text of this restoration bill, but I think 
too many students may be left out. I hope the Ramirez text can 
be incorporated and that we can bring it to the floor as soon 
as possible.
    Finally, I was excited to see a package focused on 
servicemembers transition on the agenda, but disappointed that 
Democratic proposals were left out. If the committee is 
proposing changes within the Title 10 space, I would hope that 
my transition improvement by estimating Risk Act or Tier Act 
H.R. 6725 would be included.
    I also have some newer TAP reform proposals based on the 
oversight visits that my staff and majority staff conducted 
last summer at Camp Lejeune, Naval Station Norfolk and Fort 
Liberty. I would hope that this subcommittee takes a wide view 
of what it considers transition related, to include my Guard 
and Reserve GI Bill, Parity Act, H.R 7543, Mr. Takano's Justice 
for Servicemembers Act, H.R. 5516, and Ensuring Veterans' 
Smooth Transition (EVEST) Act, H.R. 5416, as well as proposals 
on food insecurity, federal military leave days, and updates to 
Servicemembers Civil Relief Act (SCRA), Uniformed Services 
Employment and Reemployment Rights Act (USERRA), Vietnam Era 
Veterans' Readjustment Assistance Act (VEVRAA), and the 
SkillBridge program. On this bill specifically, I agree with 
the spirit and the intent, but I have some concerns around the 
content.
    I believe this subcommittee has a treasure trove of bills, 
Mr. Chairman, a treasure trove of bills ready for 
consideration, ready to pass the House, be signed into law. I 
would welcome more legislative hearings this year. I stand 
ready to work with the chairman on his priorities. In addition, 
I look forward to the field hearing in the chairman's district 
next month and scheduling an upcoming oversight hearing I have 
requested on homelessness programs. We have much to accomplish, 
and time is running short. With that, Mr. Chairman, I yield 
back.
    Mr. Van Orden. Thank you, Ranking Member Levin. Listen, you 
are not going to get an argument out of me. You are right. This 
committee has done incredible work, and it is time that we get 
these things to the floor, get them voted on, give everybody a 
chance to say yes or no. Let people see where they stand. 
Support our veterans. I will speak to leadership again today 
about getting this done because you are absolutely right. Hey, 
man, we are here for them, not us.
    I will now introduce the witness panel. Our first witness 
is Ms. Melissa Cohen, the Executive Director of Outreach, 
Transition, and Economic Development at the Department of 
Veterans Affairs. Ms. Cohen is accompanied by Mr. Nathan 
Sanfilippo. Did I get that right?
    Mr. Sanfilippo. Yes.
    Mr. Van Orden. Executive Director of Multichannel 
Technology, and Mr. Thomas Alphonso, Assistant Director of 
Education Services. Our second witness is Mr. James Rodriguez, 
Assistant Secretary for Veterans' Employment and Training 
Service at the Department of Labor.
    Now, unfortunately, while the Department of Defense (DOD) 
was invited, and one of the main pieces of legislation is 
primarily in their jurisdiction, the Department of Defense 
declined to participate in this hearing. You know what? Someone 
wrote here, this is embarrassing. It is not embarrassing. It is 
pathetic. Either the Department of the Defense cares about 
being able to transition someone from an Active Duty 
servicemember-to a productive member of society and skipping 
the whole stuff about becoming homeless, a drug and alcohol 
addict, or committing suicide. They either care about that or 
they do not.
    Secretary Austin, if you are watching this, you have 
2,077,630 members in the United States Military and you cannot 
cut one person here to try to help prevent veteran suicide. 
That is pathetic, Mr. Secretary. Get off your can, assign 
somebody to come here to these committee hearings because we 
are sick and tired of you not showing up. Is that clear, Mr. 
Secretary? I am a member of a coequal branch of government and 
will be treated as such. Actions speak louder than words.
    I am going to swear in the first panel. I ask the witnesses 
in our first panel to please stand and raise your right hand.
    [Witnesses sworn.]
    Mr. Van Orden. Let the record reflect that the witnesses 
have answered in the affirmative. I ask the witnesses and 
members today to respect the 5 minute rule. I am not going to 
ask you to respect it. You are going to. Thank you very much 
for that.
    Ms. Cohen, you are now recognized for 5 minutes to deliver 
your testimony on behalf of the Department of Veterans Affairs.

                   STATEMENT OF MELISSA COHEN

    Ms. Cohen. Good morning, Chairman Van Orden, Ranking Member 
Levin, and members of the subcommittee. Thank you for inviting 
us here today to present our views on several bills that would 
affect Department of Veteran Affairs programs and Services.
    Joining me today, specifically from the VA are my 
colleagues, Mr. Nathan Sanfilippo, Executive Director of 
Multichannel Technology at Veterans Experience Office, and Mr. 
Thomas Alphonso, Assistant Director of Education Service at the 
Veterans Benefits Administration (VBA). VA offers support for 
much of the proposed legislation before us today, and I will 
highlight several in my opening remarks.
    First, VA supports H.R. 7323, the disapproval of courses 
due to a public institution of higher learning not charging in-
state tuition to in state veterans, as this bill would allow 
chapter 1606 beneficiaries to receive the same protections 
under the law as beneficiaries who receive benefits under other 
VA educational programs.
    Regarding the Fair Access to Co-ops for Veterans Act of 
2024, VA supports, if amended and supported with offsets to the 
new benefit and administrative costs. We recognize that co-op 
share purchase loans present a unique ownership framework as 
compared to more traditional housing transactions, and we look 
forward to successfully implementing a viable program with the 
required level of expertise, authorities, funding, and 
protections in place to do so.
    Concerning Relating to Flight Training bill, VA would 
support if amended. While VA supports establishing $100,000 fee 
cap, it is unclear whether the lifetime cap would apply to both 
degree and non-degree flight programs. VA welcomes opportunity 
to work with the committee to provide technical assistance to 
ensure that this bill meets its intended goal.
    VA outlined a few concerns with the Title 10 TAP Reform 
bill. While much of the equity of this bill lies with the 
Department of the Defense, VA seeks clarification on section 
2(k), which would prohibit the furnishing of a DD-214 to a 
servicemember who did not complete the required pre-separation 
counseling. Ultimately, VA wants to ensure unimpeded access to 
earned benefits and services, such as to access to life 
insurance when transitioning to the civilian sector.
    Regarding H.R. 6656, Stuck on Hold Act, VA does not support 
this bill. VA shares the goal of exceptional customer service 
and closely monitors the quality of those calls. Average wait 
times for major contact centers are less than 15 minutes, with 
some significantly less. VA has callbacks systems functionality 
in place, and for the contact centers that use it, they are 
activated for wait time thresholds under 15 minutes.
    Last, VA supports the following two bills, Restoration of 
Entitlement to Educational Assistance and Terminology Regarding 
Veteran Employment.
    Mr. Chairman, this concludes my statement. Thank you again 
for the opportunity to discuss this important legislation to 
improve benefits and services for veterans, servicemembers, and 
their families. We look forward to working with you and are 
prepared to answer your questions.

    [The Prepared Statement Of Melissa Cohen Appears In The 
Appendix]

    Mr. Van Orden. Thank you, Ms. Cohen. The written statement 
of Ms. Cohen will be entered into the hearing record, which, by 
the way, I read. It is outstanding. Thank you.
    Assistant Secretary Rodriguez, you are now recognized for 5 
minutes to deliver your testimony.

                  STATEMENT OF JAMES RODRIGUEZ

    Mr. Rodriguez. Chairman Van Orden, Ranking Member Levin, 
and distinguished members of the subcommittee, thank you for 
the invitation to testify here today. It has been an honor to 
lead Department of Labor Veterans Employment and Training 
Service (DOL VETS) for the past 3 years.
    One of the bills being considered today would codify the 
Employment Navigator and Partnership Program, or ENPP, into 
law. DOL is currently carrying out ENPP under our Transition 
Assistance Program statutory authority. While we support 
specifically codifying ENPP into law, we strongly oppose the 
restrictive provisions in the bill. On April 1, VETS will mark 
3 years since the integration of the ENPP into the TAP program. 
Initially spanning 13 DoD on installationsites worldwide, we 
have expanded to 30 sites, and established 59 partnerships with 
veteran employment serving organizations.
    Over the past year, we have leveraged Health and Human 
Services (HHS) National Directory of New Hires data to match 
transitioning servicemembers' data and monitor their employment 
progress. Our preliminary data indicates promising results, 
affirming that ENPP's one-on-one innovative approach is 
effectively addressing veterans' employment challenges. Through 
our full time employment navigator contractor staff and our 
employment partners, ENPP clients receive assistance with their 
resumes and career direction, as well as referrals to vetted 
partner organizations and American job centers that provide 
additional personalized support.
    The 59 nongovernment ENPP partners offer vital services, 
including job placement, hiring, events, training, and most 
importantly, facilitating connections between transitioning 
servicemembers and their new communities. Each partner brings a 
unique resource to the table, ensuring a holistic approach to 
meeting diverse needs of our transitioning servicemembers, and 
this approach is aligned with VETS' vision of getting the 
transition to civilian life right the first time.
    The National Directory of New Hire research shows 
preliminary findings that indicate a 10 percent increase in 
median quarterly wages earned for enlisted transitioning 
servicemembers who participated in ENPP, compared to their 
counterparts who did not participate. Based on findings and as 
funding allows, VETS will continue to expand ENPP and we hope 
that we can continue to do so using our current program model.
    In FY 2023, 5,747 transitioning servicemembers and 383 
military spouses received support or services through ENPP. 
According to participant surveys, ENPP has been a great 
success. As of February 2024, 97 percent of ENPP survey 
respondents reported positive feelings after meeting with their 
employment navigators and would recommend ENPP to a friend or 
colleague. Additionally, 97 percent felt ENPP partners met or 
exceeded their employment related expectations. As one ENPP 
survey respondent stated, the value of the employment navigator 
is having a one-on-one conversation to go back over the 
plethora of information you received in TAP classes and give 
you guidance and recommendations specific to your situation.
    Incorporating ENPP into legislation would secure its 
future, which is something VETS strongly endorses. However, I 
would be remiss if I did not acknowledge that extending ENPP's 
reach globally to include all transitioning servicemembers and 
their spouses necessitates further resources for VETS. 
Financial implications of this bill would substantially 
increase the resources needed for successful rollout.
    Additionally, we are concerned that the notion of funding 
ENPP partner organizations with taxpayer dollars and our 
partners under an Memorandum of Understanding (MOU) with VETS 
committed to bearing no costs to either veterans or the 
government. ENPP grants organizations that are both funded 
privately and publicly access to servicemembers in TAP which 
assist them in meeting their metrics and their mission. The 
intention was never to offer financial compensation to a select 
few organizations, but rather to guide servicemembers toward 
reputable resources outside of government aid that could 
accommodate the unique and various needs of transitioning 
servicemembers. Therefore, we strongly oppose the restrictive 
measures in this bill that seem to favor only five to ten large 
organizations for federal contracts. This would unfairly 
sideline the 49 non-government, midsized, and smaller 
organizations, as well as potential future partners.
    As the lead federal agency on veteran employment, DOL VETS 
looks forward to working with this subcommittee and our many 
partners and stakeholders to create opportunities that ensure 
all veterans, servicemembers, and their spouses can have a good 
career and opportunities for advancement.
    Chairman Van Orden, Ranking Member Levin, distinguished 
members of the subcommittee, this concludes my statement. Thank 
you for the opportunity to be part of this hearing, and I 
welcome your questions.

    [The Prepared Statement Of James Rodriguez Appears In The 
Appendix]

    Mr. Van Orden. Thank you, Assistant Secretary Rodriguez. 
The written statement of Assistant Secretary Rodriguez will be 
entered into the hearing record. We are now going to proceed to 
questions, and we will all adhere to the 5-minute rule.
    I recognize myself for 5 minutes.
    Ms. Cohen, the Fair Access to Co-ops Act, can you maybe 
delve a little bit deeper into that? Understanding that we are 
a constitutional republic, not a democracy, as everybody says 
on television, and each one of these states has individual 
rules concerning a co-ops. Like even the definition changes by 
state. How would we make sure that we have fairness across the 
board, and we do not sign on to something that we will have 
unintended consequences?
    Ms. Cohen. Thank you for the question. Part of the 
requirement of this bill is to work closely with Fannie Mae to 
make sure that we align with their requirements. We recognize 
that this is a very complex entity, and there will just be a 
small pool of lenders that perhaps will participate in these 
co-op loans. We are continuing to build the expertise to make 
sure that we can handle these complexities.
    Mr. Van Orden. Well, ma'am, please take this as intended, 
but I have been on this committee now for, I do not know, 14 
months or something like that, Mike, and I have noticed one 
thing, that from my observation, the VA has not been really 
great at being able to handle subtlety. The more complex an 
issue, it seems like the more the VA screws it up, because it 
is complicated and you get so many fingers in the pie, 
eventually you got no dough left because it is stuck on 
everybody's fingers.
    When we are talking about the difference between the 
definitions, we are talking about resale of co-ops, subletting 
of co-ops, defaulting on the loans. I am very concerned, again, 
that we are going to wind up signing up for something, and it 
is going to have very negative unintended consequences, because 
the definition of a co-op in the state of New York is different 
than the definition of a co-op in several different states. As 
opposed to working with a home that we can clearly define as a 
single-family home, it is not investment property. That is what 
the VA loans or loan guarantees are predominantly designed to 
do. I am not quite sure how we are going to figure this out. I 
need much more detailed analysis of this particular issue 
before we sign on to anything, from my perspective.
    Then the Stuck on Hold, seriously? Come on. I call Delta 
Airlines, if it is going to be longer, then they call you back. 
I do not understand what the heartburn is with, like, are we 
putting people out of work? Is the Veteran Service Experience 
going to be less enticing because they actually get to finish 
making breakfast as opposed to waiting for that horrible--have 
you called the VA? Dear God, fix your wait or your hold music, 
please. How is this going to negatively affect veterans if they 
are able to just have somebody call them back, I guess, is the 
question?
    Ms. Cohen. Before I turn it over to my colleague, Mr. 
Nathan Sanfilippo, I will say in VBA, we have that technology 
that you are talking about.
    Mr. Van Orden. I get it. I get all my healthcare through 
the VA system, all of it. I get it. I am just saying, is this 
going to be negative or positive? Who is going to answer the 
question?
    Mr. Sanfilippo. Yes, no. Happy to answer that question. You 
know, the bill, we 100 percent support reducing wait times and 
enabling features that allow callbacks and other things. In 
fact, we already have that capability in certain lines of 
business. As Ms. Cohen was noting, our Veterans' Benefits 
Administration recently implemented that feature to provide 
callbacks for folks that have to wait longer than 5 minutes. It 
is really just a matter of making that feature available to 
more of our contact centers.
    Mr. Van Orden. You want me to change the bill so it says 5 
instead of 15? I will do that. Write that down. Good, thank 
you. You already have the technology. You have implemented it. 
There you go. Hey, well, this committee, is adjourned. No. Hey, 
listen, man. No veteran, from my perspective, is going to get 
less care. The line is not going to get longer for dialysis, 
right? Is that true? Someone is going to be able to get their 
rocking glasses in La Crosse, Wisconsin, like I did in the same 
period of time. We are going to try to make sure they wait less 
on the phone or even if they do not, because things happen, 
they can just get a phone call later.
    Mr. Sanfilippo. Yes. We are seeking to make advancements to 
reduce wait times in all of our contact centers, whether they 
are helpful----
    Mr. Van Orden. Sir, but if you already implemented this in 
different areas, just implement it across your entire universe, 
and I think that would be great. We are going to change that. 
We will drop for you from 15 to 5 minutes. Your input has been 
very helpful, sir.
    With that, I yield back and I yield to Ranking Member Levin 
for 5 minutes.
    Mr. Levin. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Ms. Cohen, I will start 
with you. Thank you for your feedback regarding the TAP bill. 
Really appreciate it. While I have you want to discuss a couple 
related issues. I have a prop here. It is VA's TAP participant 
guide. I am sure many are familiar with this. It mirrors the 
class curriculum. It includes content on the VA Home Loan 
Guarantee program, specially adapted housing program, 
homelessness programs. As I look through this, one of the 
things that I do not see, and I hope I went through all of it, 
but I think we did, there is no information on renting a home.
    Reading and signing a lease, navigating expenses like 
application fees, move in fees, security deposits, renters 
insurance, and it seems that it is very critical information, 
particularly if you have a transitioning servicemember who 
joined the military straight out of high school, lived in the 
barracks for their entire service, have never gone through the 
process of renting a home, might be a higher risk for housing 
insecurity. My question for you is, has VA considered 
incorporating this content in its TAP curriculum, and why or 
why not? If not, how else would you suggest we fill that gap?
    Ms. Cohen. Thank you for your question. I do not have that 
particular chapter in front of me. However, I will tell you 
that we review our curriculum annually. We can be nimble enough 
as needed to make changes and do inserts ensuring that that 
information gets across to all of our VA classes. I will verify 
to your point, if there is a gap, we will fix it.
    Mr. Levin. Thank you. I think that would be a great insert 
or a great addition to version 5.2 of this book. This is 5.1. 
TAP cannot be the sole source of support for those in the 
process of transition. It is an incredibly challenging and 
pivotal time in a veteran's life.
    I was proud to champion Section 4304 of the Isakson and Roe 
Act, which directs VA to make grants to local organizations 
that provide coordinated transition assistance services, such 
as resume assistance, interview training, job recruitment 
training for veterans and their spouses. In July 2023, VA 
issued a proposed rule for implementation of the Veteran and 
Spouse Transitional Assistance Grant Program, and earlier this 
month, Congress enacted fiscal year `24 appropriations for VA, 
including $5 million for this program.
    Ms. Cohen, could you please provide the status of 
implementation? Specifically, what is the timeline for 
finalizing the rules, publishing a Notice of Funding 
Availability (NOFA), and awarding the first round of grants?
    Ms. Cohen. I do not have that particular update here as it 
was not part of the legislative bills. However, I understand if 
I am recalling that we are waiting for Office of Management and 
Budget (OMB) approval, but we are staged and ready to execute 
as soon as the approval process is confirmed. I do owe you a 
better answer, and I can get back to you on that.
    Mr. Levin. Thank you. Well, we will look forward to that. 
Another provision that I secured in Isakson and Roe is 4303, 
which restarts DOL's Off-Base Transition Training program, or 
OBTT. Ms. Cohen, VA told my staff in September 2022 that 
Outreach, Transition and Economic Development (OTED) and DOL 
had agreed to incorporate benefits and services information 
delivered by VA benefits advisors into the OBTT curriculum. 
However, the most recent update I received was that VA had not 
yet provided staff to do so and instead OTED had developed a 
single slide with VA contact information that is being 
presented by DOL at all OBTT workshops. Ms. Cohen, is that 
still the case, and if so, what is taking so long?
    Ms. Cohen. I need to confirm the one slide you are 
referencing, as I am not aware of that as part of OBTT. I 
understand the intent. As we have looked for funding for future 
years, we have talked about Off-Base Transition Training to 
meet that population. I will look into that due out.
    Mr. Levin. Okay, well, we have you on the record, and we 
are going to follow up on all of the above, and we appreciate 
your work in getting this off the ground. It has taken too 
long. I remember when we passed Isakson and Roe, you know, what 
our hope and expectation was, and all of these things have just 
been taking, just, frankly, been taking too long. We really 
appreciate speeding things up. We have got your words on the 
record, and we are going to follow up with you. With that, Mr. 
Chairman, happy to yield back.
    Mr. Van Orden. Thank you, Ranking Member Levin. Mr. 
Sanflippo, I want to be very clear with you. There is going to 
be one number that will be written into this, that this 5-
minute thing is not going to count with. That is 988 option 
one. That is the veteran's crisis line. If they are waiting 5 
seconds for someone to pick that up, it is wrong. To be 
explicitly clear, we are going to change the language from 15 
to 5 minutes to make it in line with what you guys want to do. 
With the exception of the veterans' crisis line, 988 option 
one. Thank you very much for pointing that out.
    In accordance with committee rule 5(e), I ask unanimous 
consent that the gentlelady from New York, Ms. Meng be 
permitted to participate in today's subcommittee hearing. 
Hearing no objection, we will proceed. Now, Ms. Meng is new to 
the committee, so we do 5 minutes, not 5 minutes, in 1 second, 
which is good.
    The chair now recognizes the gentlelady from New York, Ms. 
Meng, for 5 minutes.
    Ms. Meng. Thank you. Chair Van Orden, Ranking Member Levin, 
and distinguished members of the House Veterans Affairs 
Subcommittee on Economic Opportunity. Thank you for allowing me 
to testify today. I would also like to thank the panelists from 
the Disabled American Veterans (DAV) and the Veterans of 
Foreign Wars (VFW) for testifying in support of my bill.
    I am honored to speak in support of my Fair Access to Co-
ops for Veterans Act which would finally allow veterans to 
purchase cooperative housing units, also known as co-ops, 
through the VA Home Loan program. The VA Home Loan program has 
been a transformative benefit for servicemembers for 80 years. 
This program cannot be fully enjoyed by New Yorkers who served 
in our armed forces.
    In New York City, about two in three apartment buildings 
are co-ops. If you have been to New York, you know that is a 
lot of co-ops. Co-ops, on average, are more affordable in New 
York than condos or homes. They offer a realistic option for 
working class New Yorkers to own a home and build equity. 
Currently, a veteran or servicemember can use their VA home 
loan to purchase a condo, townhouse, mobile home, or 
manufactured home, but not a co-op.
    Last year, a recently married servicemember in the New York 
Army National Guard reached out to my office asking why he 
could not use a major benefit like the VA Home Loan on New 
York's most affordable housing option. His story is common 
amongst the roughly 200,000 veterans that call New York City 
home, and to the countless other veterans in towns and cities 
across the country where co-ops are present, like Palm Beach, 
Minneapolis, Philadelphia, and Baltimore.
    It is our job to serve those who served us. Let us serve 
them by increasing the accessibility of home ownership to more 
veterans. Let us expand the American dream that the VA Home 
Loan program helped define 80 years ago. Let us give veterans 
and servicemembers access to co-ops.
    Thank you again for your time and consideration of this 
matter. I ask the chairman, ranking member, and distinguished 
members of this subcommittee to please support my Fair Access 
to Co-ops for Veterans Act. Thank you.
    Mr. Van Orden. Thank you, Ms. Meng. While you were 
testifying, Ranking Member Levin and I decided that the next 
time people are read onto the subcommittee that you will be 
receiving a gift bag. Thank you for coming.
    Ms. Meng. I will be here more often.
    Mr. Van Orden. All right.
    Ms. Meng. Thank you.
    Mr. Van Orden. We are encouraging. Thank you very much for 
coming today, and the witnesses are now excused, and I hope you 
are going to sit and listen to the second panel.
    On our second panel, we will hear from the following 
witnesses, Ms. Nadine Bullock-Pottinga. Did I get that? Man, I 
am batting a thousand today. Chief Development Officer of Hire 
Heroes USA. Mr. Gregory John, Founder and President of Infinity 
Flight Group. Mr. Matthew Schwartzman, Director of Legislation 
and Military Policy of Reserve Organization for America, and 
Ms. Kristina Keenan, the Deputy Director of National 
Legislative Service for the Veterans of Foreign Wars. I do have 
to tell you, that my cover, getting my paid up for life being 
sewn on right now at my post 1530 in La Crosse, Wisconsin. 
Normally I would be wearing that with you. Marquis Barefield, 
Assistant National Legislative Director for Disabled American 
Veterans.
    I would now like to welcome the witnesses and ask you to 
please stand and raise your right hand.
    [Witnesses sworn.]
    Mr. Van Orden. Let the record reflect all witnesses have 
answered in the affirmative.
    Ms. Bullock-Pottinga, you are now recognized for 5 minutes 
to deliver your testimony.

              STATEMENT OF NADINE BULLOCK-POTTINGA

    Ms. Bullock-Pottinga. Chairman Van Orden, Ranking Member 
Levin, and members of the subcommittee, thank you for the 
opportunity to speak today on this pending legislation. My name 
is Nadine Bullock-Pottinga, and I am the Chief Development 
Officer with Hire Heroes USA, the nation's leading veteran and 
military spouse employment nonprofit.
    Many of the bills up for discussion today would greatly 
impact employment outcomes and economic opportunity for our 
Nation's transitioning servicemembers, veterans, and military 
spouses. I would like to focus my remarks on proposed 
improvements to the transition process, as I believe the period 
of separation from military service to civilian life to be most 
critical for a veteran's career success.
    First, let me briefly describe Hire Heroes USA. Hire Heroes 
USA was founded in 2005 and has secured employment for more 
than 93,000 clients. We offer comprehensive one-on-one 
employment services in all 50 states to over 20,000 individuals 
annually at no cost.
    Hire Heroes USA strongly supports H.R. 7732, which includes 
comprehensive and sustainable reforms to the Transition 
Assistance Program, or TAP. This bill would improve the 
experiences of servicemembers nearing separation or veterans 
who have recently separated. With approximately 200,000 
servicemembers transitioning out of the military annually, TAP 
must be designed and implemented in ways that maximize impact 
and effectiveness. We believe that various provisions of this 
legislation would address long standing concerns about the 
structure and performance of TAP.
    Hire Heroes USA is especially supportive of the bill's 
proposal to codify and improve the Department of Labor's 
Employment Navigator and Partnership program, ENPP. Initially a 
pilot program, ENPP began at 13 military installations in April 
2021 and has expanded to over 30 locations. The program is 
intended to complement the standard TAP coursework by offering 
more individualized employment services tailored to the unique 
needs of each transitioning servicemember and their spouse. 
Under the program, DOL staff work with employment partner 
organizations, including Hire Heroes USA, to assist clients 
with job placement, training and various other career or 
wraparound services.
    ENPP was originally established under DOL's authority to 
provide employment and training opportunities as part of TAP. 
However, this program has never been codified into statute, a 
step that we believe is critical for ensuring the long-term 
success of TAP. Beyond codifying ENPP, the bill language also 
makes important improvements to the program's administration of 
contracts with employment partners. To date, DOL has not 
provided any compensation to ENPP partners and instead has 
relied on voluntary participation, placing the financial burden 
on Veteran Service Organizations (VSO).
    However, the success of ENPP strongly depends on the 
involvement of non-governmental partners. We deliver direct 
assistance to transitioning servicemembers and military 
spouses, while complying with all DOL regulations and 
requirements around data management and program evaluation. 
ENPP partners do this without any resources to support these 
expenses, an approach that challenges the long-term 
sustainability of this program.
    Hire Heroes USA alone has supported over 2,000 client 
referrals from this program since 2021. As the ENPP continues 
to grow, especially if codified, it is essential that the 
partners taking on a significant volume of referrals receive 
the appropriate support to sustain their participation. This 
would take the form of competitively awarded contracts for the 
highest impact and farthest-reaching employment partners. To be 
clear, we also support the continuation of voluntary ENPP 
partnerships, in addition to those organizations selected for 
contracts.
    The language should further clarify this to ensure small 
and local service providers can continue to participate 
voluntarily. Together, these proposed changes to ENPP would 
promote the long-term success of the program and ultimately 
benefit tens of thousands of servicemembers every year.
    Beyond ENPP, Hire Heroes USA also supports the bill's 
provisions that would establish a DOD pilot program for 
military spouses to receive one-on-one counseling services 
based on the TAP curriculum. While some specific transition 
resources exist, there is still a need for more comprehensive 
programming covering the full range of topics relevant to 
transitioning military families.
    On behalf of Hire Heroes USA, I would like to thank again, 
chairman, ranking member, and the members of the subcommittee 
for your ongoing commitment to the cause of veteran and 
military spouse employment. I welcome any questions. Thank you.

    [The Prepared Statement Of Nadine Bullock-Pottinga Appears 
In The Appendix]

    Mr. Van Orden. Thank you, Ms. Bullock-Pottinga. The written 
statement of Ms. Bullock-Pottinga will be entered into the 
hearing record.
    Mr. John, you are now recognized for 5 minutes to deliver 
your testimony.

                   STATEMENT OF GREGORY JOHN

    Mr. John. Thank you, chairperson, honorable members of the 
committee. My name is Gregory John. I am the president of 
Infinity Flight, one of the largest flight training 
organizations in the country based at the Trenton-Mercer 
Airport in New Jersey. We collaborate with Mercer county 
college to provide veterans with an opportunity to become 
professional airline pilots, a lucrative, desperately in-demand 
career path. Today, I stand before you to express my unwavering 
support for the proposed language in H.R. 7613 that would 
implement a lifetime cap of $100,000, adjusted for inflation, 
on veterans' entitlement use for flight training fees at public 
institutions of higher learning.
    The proposed cap is not only a financial safeguard, but a 
strategic move toward creating a more equitable, efficient, and 
responsible system for utilizing the educational benefits 
earned by veterans. By setting a clear limit, we are helping to 
ensure these benefits are used in a manner that maximizes 
veteran success in the civilian workforce, while protecting the 
integrity of the GI Bill against exploitation.
    Further, implementing a lifetime cap encourages training 
programs to prioritize quality, safety, and effectiveness. In 
the Mercer County College program, we have seen firsthand how 
clear, defined boundaries foster an environment where every 
single flight hour and every single training opportunity is 
utilized to its fullest potential. This focus on quality over 
the quantity of flight hours ensures that veterans receive the 
best possible education and training, preparing them for 
successful careers in aviation and at the airlines.
    Additionally, the cap addresses a critical issue that has 
plagued the system for far too long, the misuse of VA funds 
through what has been termed ``blank-check loophole,'' which 
has allowed bad-actor institutions to inflate the cost of 
flight training, charging the VA far beyond the amount 
necessary for a quality education. By setting a reasonable 
flight fee cap, Congress will put an end to this exploitation, 
ensuring VA funds are used responsibly, and more veterans have 
access to flight training opportunities without the risk of 
unnecessary financial waste.
    In my opinion, establishing the inflation adjusted cap at 
$100,000 is appropriate based on the actual cost of obtaining a 
comprehensive flight education. Furthermore, applying the cap 
exclusively to programs offered by public institutions of 
higher learning encourages veterans to pursue their education 
at institutions already benefiting from an array of existing 
governance safeguards, ensuring financial protections for both 
the veterans and the GI Bill, as well as the delivery of a 
high-quality education.
    In conclusion, I urge Congress to adopt this language into 
law. It represents a balanced, thoughtful approach to 
supporting our veterans' educational aspirations while 
safeguarding the resources dedicated to their success. Let us 
honor their service by ensuring that their path to a new career 
in aviation is both secure and fruitful.
    Thank you for considering my testimony on this critical 
matter. I am confident that together we can make a positive 
change that benefits our veterans, the aviation industry, and 
the Nation overall. Thank you.

    [The Prepared Statement Of Gregory John Appears In The 
Appendix]

    Mr. Van Orden. Thank you, Mr. John. Hey, I appreciate your 
testimony, but I am going to go ahead and gender myself. I will 
be addressed as Chairman Van Orden. Thank you. The written 
statement of Mr. John will be entered into the hearing record.
    Mr. Schwartzman, you are now recognized for 5 minutes to 
deliver your testimony.

                STATEMENT OF MATTHEW SCHWARTZMAN

    Mr. Schwartzman. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. 
Chairman Van Orden, Ranking Member Levin, and distinguished 
members of the Economic Opportunity Subcommittee, on behalf of 
the Reserve Organization of America (ROA), the only National 
Military organization that solely and exclusively supports the 
Reserve and National Guard, thank you for the opportunity to 
testify on pending legislation and on ways to improve military 
to civilian transitions for our Nation's citizen warriors and 
their families.
    For this hearing, ROA is prepared to provide technical 
assistance on most of the proposed bills. Our advocacy, 
however, is focused on those measures that uniquely relate to 
the needs of the reserve component community, are reinforced by 
an ROA resolution, or are aligned with our congressional 
charter.
    Ladies and gentlemen, the days of Reserve and National 
Guard servicemembers being weekend warriors, they are long 
gone. They constitute close to 50 percent of the total force, 
more than 50 percent of the army, and fight in our Nation's 
wars. While these citizen warriors may not be widely referred 
to as minutemen in the modern era, even today they must be 
ready for duty at a minute's notice.
    Despite being required to maintain the same readiness as 
their active component counterparts, the reserve components are 
often treated as a secondary class within their own military. 
ROA is thankful that today's hearing includes several bills 
that address these inequities head on. H.R. 7323, for example, 
requires the VA to disapprove courses offered by a public 
institution of education that are not charged at the in-state 
tuition rate under the Montgomery GI Bill Selected Reserve, 
despite being the first VA educational program to directly 
assist members of the Selected Reserve, it will be one of the 
last to receive this important protection. ROA thanks you, Mr. 
Chairman and Representative McGarvey, for sponsoring H.R. 7323 
and urges the members of this subcommittee to advocate its 
swift codification in public law.
    Another example is H.R. 6225, the expanding Home Loans for 
Guard and Reservist Act. This bill expands the VA Home Loan 
program to Reserve and National Guard servicemembers that spend 
30 or more consecutive days on Active Duty for training. From 
ROA's perspective, this bill serves as a cost concern 
compromise on similar legislation that passed the House in the 
previous Congress. ROA thanks Representatives Jen Kiggans and 
Pat Ryan for sponsoring this bill, which recognizes the 
intensive nature of service during Active Duty for training and 
provides a solvent pathway forward toward homeownership for 
reserve component members and their families.
    Another bill that ROA sees great promise in but cannot yet 
lend its support to is the draft measure aiming to improve the 
Transition Assistance Program. Unfortunately, in its current 
form, TAP fails to meet the unique transition needs of Reserve 
and National Guard servicemembers and their families. This fact 
was recently validated by a Research and Development (RAND) 
report published last year that even went as far as to 
recommend establishing a reserve component curriculum track 
within TAP, which ROA wholeheartedly endorses.
    To resolve the current TAP dilemma, which is caused by its 
one size, two components construct, ROA proposes a five step 
action plan, which we refer to as the Delivering Reservist 
Integration and Veterans Education plan, also known as the 
DRIVE plan. ROA's DRIVE plan, if adopted by Congress, would 
drive forward much needed reforms by increasing access to 
component focused counseling and resources, while 
simultaneously providing reserve affiliated participants with 
additional flexibilities in navigating their respective TAP 
track.
    Support for these proposals, among others detailed in our 
statement, would vastly improve military to civilian 
transitions for reserve component members and their families, 
who, unlike their active component counterparts, must make this 
transition frequently during their time in service and may even 
wait many years to receive their earned retirement benefits.
    Thank you again, Mr. Chairman, for inviting ROA to testify 
today. I look forward to answering any questions you may have.

    [The Prepared Statement Of Matthew Schwartzman Appears In 
The Appendix]

    Mr. Van Orden. Thank you, Mr. Schwartzman. Excuse me. Yes, 
the record will reflect that Mr. Schwartzman's written 
testimony will be entered into the record.
    Ms. Keenan, you are recognized for 5 minutes to give your 
testimony.

                  STATEMENT OF KRISTINA KEENAN

    Ms. Keenan. Chairman Van Orden, Ranking Member Levin, and 
members of the subcommittee, on behalf of the men and women of 
the Veterans of Foreign Wars of the United States and its 
auxiliary, thank you for the opportunity to provide our remarks 
on legislation pending before the subcommittee. The views on 
all the bills can be found in my written testimony. I will take 
the opportunity to briefly highlight a few.
    The VFW supports the Expanding Home Loans for Guard and 
Reservist Act to expand the eligibility of the VA Home Loan to 
members of the National Guard and Reserves who have performed 
Active Duty for training for 30 consecutive days or more. The 
VFW supports this expansion to ensure that these servicemembers 
and their family have housing stability needed to perform 
efficiently their duties as they balance military service and 
their civilian lives.
    Continuing on the topic of housing, the VFW supports the 
Fair Access to Co-ops for Veterans Act to extend the VA Home 
Loan to veterans seeking to purchase residential cooperative 
housing units or co-ops. Most of the co-op housing in the 
United States is located in New York, which also has 
statistically lower rates of veteran home ownership. We have 
worked with the New York City Department of Veterans Affairs, 
who brought this issue to our attention. Expanding VA home 
loans to include co-ops would help provide long term housing 
stability for more veterans around the country.
    The VFW supports the Restore Act to ensure that 
beneficiaries of VA education benefits are protected if an 
educational institution is found to have violated certain 
prohibitions regarding advertising, sales, and enrollment 
practices. Schools found in violation would be required to 
repay funds to the Department of Veterans Affairs, and VA would 
restore entitlements to beneficiaries. Requiring schools to be 
responsible for repayment would ensure that taxpayer supported 
federal funding is safeguarded and student veterans are 
protected. We hope the committee will consider combining the 
Restore Act with the similar bill H.R. 1767, the Student 
Veteran Restoration Act, which passed on a full committee. 
Combining these would provide even more protections against 
fraud for student veterans.
    Last, the VFW supports the intent of the Enhancing 
Servicemember Transition Act. The VFW strongly supports the 
provisions which would improve the transition to VA, including 
requiring accredited representatives be included in the 
Transition Assistance Program. This would enable servicemembers 
to have a point of contact to begin their pre-separation 
claims. We also support the bill's inclusion of pre-enrollment 
in VA medical care during transition. This would provide 
veterans with their earned benefits the day they leave the 
military. A warm handoff to the VA can potentially mitigate 
risk factors for suicide during that critical first year after 
service.
    Also, regarding the bill, we suggest modifications to 
certain provisions pertaining to Title 10. For example, we find 
that screening for potential homelessness and food insecurity 
to be a great addition, though it should also occur closer to 
discharge because these factors may not be known yet one year 
in advance during TAP. Additionally, including spouses in TAP 
would be a great addition, but the bill also creates a separate 
TAP specifically for spouses, which seems like a duplication.
    We are also concerned about withholding DD-214s from 
servicemembers who do not complete tap, as this could be 
harmful to them as they seek housing, education, and 
employment. We want to find effective ways to hold commanders 
accountable. We would be happy to discuss our specific concerns 
further to avoid any unintended consequences.
    Chairman Van Orden, Ranking Member Levin, this concludes my 
testimony. I am prepared to take any questions you or the 
subcommittee members may have.

    [The Prepared Statement Of Kristina Keenan Appears In The 
Appendix]

    Mr. Van Orden. Thank you, Ms. Keenan. I appreciate it 
greatly. A vote has been called in another committee that I 
serve on, so this subcommittee will stand a recess subject to 
the call of the chair. I expect this to be a very short recess 
and return as quickly as possible. Mr. Barefield, you should be 
good to go. We will be back in a few minutes. This committee 
stands in recess.
    [Recess]
    Mr. Van Orden. This committee is now in session.
    Mr. Barefield, you are now recognized for 5 minutes to 
deliver your testimony.

                 STATEMENT OF MARQUIS BAREFIELD

    Mr. Barefield. Thank you. Chairman Van Orden, Ranking 
Member Levin, and members of the subcommittee, thank you for 
inviting DAV to testify at today's hearing of the Subcommittee 
on Economic Opportunity to consider the nine pieces of 
legislation up for discussion this afternoon. My written 
statement has been submitted for the record, and I will now 
highlight a few of the bills that are important to DAV and our 
membership.
    In my early years of being a veterans advocate with DAV, 
one of the things that I remember the most about helping 
veterans, dependents, and survivors, was the time that they 
would have to wait to speak with someone at VA about their 
claims. Clients would tell me that they would wait for over 20 
minutes to sometimes an hour on the phone before they were able 
to speak with someone from VA about their claims. This was 
frustrating as a representative, and I wanted to know what 
could be done to resolve these long wait times for our clients.
    H.R. 6656, the Stuck on Hold Act, which DAV supports, would 
address these long wait time periods for all veterans, 
dependents, and survivors, calling VA about the status of their 
claims. This bill would give a waiting client the time it would 
take before their call was answered and the option to receive a 
callback if the wait time was over 15 minutes.
    As of March 1 of this year, VBA has over 992,000 pending 
claims. VBA has estimated that one claim generates eight 
separate contacts to the call centers. This means that VA can 
expect at least 8 million calls this year. With the increase in 
claims and phone calls, VA must be prepared now. The Stuck on 
Hold Act is a positive step in the right direction.
    DAV supports H.R 7703, the Fair Access to Co-ops for 
Veterans Act. The ability for service disabled veterans and 
their families to have more options to obtain affordable 
housing in some areas of the country is of extreme importance. 
The provisions in this bill would give VA the ability to 
advertise this type of loan through notification to eligible 
veterans, participating lenders, and interested realtors of 
such loans. In many places where affordable housing is scarce, 
these co-ops offers families the opportunity to find housing 
that meets their needs. Affordable housing options are one of 
the top priorities for service disabled veterans, especially 
those transitioning from Active Duty.
    DAV also supports H.R. 6225, the Expanding Home Loans for 
Guard and Reservist Act. This legislation expands the existing 
eligibility to the VA Home Loan program and corrects gaps 
identified in Public Law 116-315, which expanded the VA Home 
Loan program eligibility to National Guard servicemembers who 
perform full time National Guard duty for at least 90 days, of 
which 30 were consecutive.
    The draft bill to make improvements to certain programs for 
a member nearing separation or for a veteran who recently 
separated from service is mostly supported by DAV. We have 
concerns with a section that deals with no members shall be 
provided with their DD-214 until they have completed their 
preseparation counseling. Besides the noted exceptions listed 
in the draft bill, it is not clear how the program would handle 
a situation that is beyond the servicemember's control that 
would prevent them from finishing their required counseling. As 
such, it appears this legislation would punish the 
servicemember by not allowing them to receive their DD-214 in a 
timely manner.
    Finally, Mr. Chairman, H.R. 7653 would change the language 
in the statute from employment handicap to employment barrier. 
Words matter, and the word handicap has been perceived to have 
a negative connotation. Word choices can either make people 
feel included or excluded depending on the situation. Word 
choices can either uplift or demean differences or sustain or 
disperse stereotypes about persons with disabilities.
    According to the National Education Association, we should 
be conscious of antiquated words that have negative 
connotations for people with disabilities. Advocates of person 
first language believe that a person with disabilities is an 
individual first and should not be identified by their 
disability. DAV supports this change in the terminology in the 
statute and believe it encompasses VA's VR&E programs and 
removes obstacles for employment. Words matter.
    This concludes my testimony, and I am happy to answer any 
questions you or members of the subcommittee may have.

    [The Prepared Statement Of Marquis Barefield Appears In The 
Appendix]

    Mr. Van Orden. Thank you, Mr. Barefield. I appreciate it. 
Mr. Barefield's written statement will be entered into the 
record. By the way, I have a good family friend. Their name, 
Marquez. That is how they pronounce your name, so please 
forgive me, Marquis. I appreciate that greatly.
    Now we are going to proceed to questioning. We are supposed 
to have one more witness, Mr. Santo. Is it Mr. Santo or Mr. 
Santos?
    Ms. Bullock-Pottinga. I am witnessing in his place.
    Mr. Van Orden. Yes, I understand he has a family emergency 
and I hope that everything is going Okay. Please, will you just 
follow up with the subcommittee staff so we know he is all 
right and his family is Okay?
    Ms. Bullock-Pottinga. Yes, absolutely will do.
    Mr. Van Orden. It is not a personal thing. I think we need 
to take a little time to take care of each other.
    Ms. Bullock-Pottinga. Yes, agreed.
    Mr. Van Orden. I appreciate that greatly.
    The chair now recognizes myself for 5 minutes.
    Okay, Ms. Keenan and Mr. Barefield you both brought up 
issues with the DD-214. I am going to start with you, Ms. 
Keenan. What do you think the gripe is with the DOD? Why they 
do not want to issue these DD-214s in a timely manner?
    Ms. Keenan. I cannot speak for them, so I am not sure why. 
I guess our main concern is holding chain of command and 
commanders accountable. I think that is what we want to try to 
achieve. You know, we are just saying we are a little concerned 
that servicemembers could get caught up in trying to enforce 
the transition. I think we want every service member to go 
through TAP, go through the transition properly. Any way that 
we can work together to try to achieve that, we are definitely 
willing to do.
    Mr. Van Orden. Very well. Mr. Barefield, were you in the 
service?
    Mr. Barefield. Yes, United States army.
    Mr. Van Orden. Okay. In the Navy we have got a term, it is 
called ``scuttlebutt.'' It is a water cooler. That is what I 
was asking, Ms. Keenan. Have you heard any scuttlebutt about 
why the DOD would not want to do this? Have you heard any, Mr. 
Barefield?
    Mr. Barefield. No, not at this time. I have not heard 
anything about it.
    Mr. Van Orden. Okay. Well, I will tell you what. We are 
going to try to make them do this because that is just silly. 
Our veterans are waiting, and it is true our active and reserve 
folks, they are on, they are off. They are on, they are off. To 
have them sitting around waiting for a piece of paperwork so 
they can get a home loan or whatever it is, that is just dumb. 
I am sure that the ranking member and I agree on that.
    We do have an issue with TAP, and that is under this 
committee's purview. As you articulated, Ms. Keenan, I think it 
is very clever the first 12 to 24 months is when our veterans 
wind up committing suicide, and because they do not understand 
what is going on and we are not equipping them well enough. I 
want to have language written in for accountability. It is not 
the first line supervisor. That is what they call them in the 
Air Force, I think it is so funny. They have career fields and 
dormitories as opposed to jobs and barracks. Just throwing that 
out there, Air Force folks.
    This needs to be part of an OER, which is an officer's 
evaluation or a FitRep, that is in the Navy. I want to hold 
commanding officers accountable for their troops going to TAP, 
and we are going to try to figure out how to do that. That is 
under the purview of House Armed Services Committee (HASC). 
Until someone is held accountable, and until an officer, not an 
Non-Commissioned Officer (NCO), until an officer does not get 
promoted because their people did not go to TAPs, nothing is 
going to change. That is from personal experience. I was in for 
26 years, and you can throw a bunch of enlisted people in a 
woodchipper and they are just going to give you another 
enlisted person to throw in the woodchipper, until our officers 
start getting held accountable. It is not going to change.
    Mr. John, what is the average cost to get somebody 
qualified to fly an airplane?
    Mr. John. Today, from 0 hours, no experience, through 
commercial and flight instructor license is about $85 to 
$90,000.
    Mr. Van Orden. Okay, so for essentially $90,000, we can get 
someone like me. I mean, dear God, hopefully they are younger 
than me. You do not want me flying a plane. Just throwing that 
out there. You can get somebody that gets out of the service, 
and for about $90,000, you can get them instrument rated, 
multi-engine rated, and they can start at a regional airline 
working in what period of time?
    Mr. John. About 12 to 24 months. Within 24 months of the 
day you start training, you could be at airline.
    Mr. Van Orden. That is just tuition. That is not tuition 
and housing and all that?
    Mr. John. That is correct, that is just tuition
    Mr. Van Orden. All right, let is do the math on this to 
make sure that we get this right, because you are right. I do 
not want people taking advantage of this. We do have a finite 
amount of money to deal with, and I want to make sure it is 
focused. I appreciate that, and I would hope that everyone 
would support that, making sure that we have this geared, and 
as long as it is tied to inflation and all the rest of the 
stuff that is written in the bill.
    By the way, I read everybody's testimony thoroughly, and it 
is very good. Those are all the questions I have. In accordance 
with committee rule 5(e), I ask unanimous consent that my good 
friend, the representative from North Carolina, Mr. Davis, be 
permitted to participate in today's subcommittee. Hearing no 
objection, we will proceed.
    I now yield back and recognize Ranking Member Levin for 5 
minutes for his questions.
    Mr. Levin. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Schwartzman, good 
to see you. You stated in your testimony that you believe there 
are issues with the current construction of TAP, especially for 
reserve component servicemembers, and I completely agree with 
that.
    For example, while I understand the frustrations that led 
to the proposal before us to allow Guard and Reserve 
servicemembers to waive out of TAP if they have taken TAP 
courses recently. I do not think it addresses the underlying 
problem, which is that the current TAP curriculum is not 
tailored to reservists. What can Congress do to address this?
    Mr. Schwartzman. Thank you very much, Ranking Member Levin. 
Let me also just say thank you for your long standing 
leadership on the Guard and Reserve GI Bill Parity Act, 
ensuring that every day in uniform counts toward eligibility. 
As I stated in my oral remarks, and as I detail further in my 
written statement, there are five steps that Congress can take 
to improve the Transition Assistance Program as currently 
constructed.
    The first, is amend the eligibility criteria to participate 
in TAP. Right now, the requirement is that servicemembers spend 
180 consecutive days on Active Duty to qualify for 
participation. Unfortunately for members of the Reserve and 
Guard, they may be left behind with that requirement. ROA 
recommends amending that to provide servicemembers with the 
ability to participate if they spend 180 days cumulative of 
active service, which would also include drill weekends and 
Active Duty Training (ADT) as well.
    The second, would be to provide those reserve component 
members who may be taking TAP multiple times with diminishing 
returns the opportunity to waive their mandatory TAP 
requirements. Although ROA does believe it is important to 
first ensure that the member and their spouse are properly 
educated on any of the changes in TAPs elements that may have 
occurred in the preceding period before following through on 
such a waiver request. We also feel that consideration ought to 
be granted for not providing that waiver in the instance of an 
anticipated or unanticipated retirement or separation from 
service.
    The third step that can be taken is to add reserve 
component specific matters to the TAP pre-separation checklist. 
We have detailed these further in our written statement. One 
example would include information, advice, and counsel for how 
those reserve component members can receive separation of 
service documentation, and then properly utilize that 
documentation in order to ensure they have the best position 
possible to obtain those service earned benefits.
    Mr. Levin. If you could briefly summarize four and five.
    Mr. Schwartzman. Establish a reserve component curriculum 
within TAP, so a separate program entirely, but also ensuring 
that those members meet those needs. Then the fifth is going to 
be to integrate military spouses into the service spouses TAP 
process entirely. Those are the plans.
    Mr. Levin. Appreciate that. During our subcommittee's 
hearing on transition in May, we discussed the disconnect 
between DOD's mission statement and its authority over TAP. 
Sadly, this disconnect has meant TAP is not prioritized by 
those with the power to improve it, and while our committee 
stands ready and is eager to tackle these issues as our primary 
responsibility is to care for those who have served. TAP is 
largely outside of our jurisdiction, and you have heard the 
chairman's frustration, and I have shared that frustration over 
the years with the lack of interest or focus at DOD on TAP.
    My question for you, Mr. Schwartzman, would you be in 
support of moving the jurisdiction of transition to House 
Veterans' Affairs Committee (HVAC)?
    Mr. Schwartzman. Unfortunately, Ranking Member Levin, ROA 
does not have a resolution specific to that. If I were to ask 
my members if they would be supportive of that, what I would 
offer is this. Long as that was in accordance with the 
constitution, so long as it is in accordance with the standing 
rules and parliamentary procedure of the House, and so long as 
that would lead to a more expedient passage of the proposals we 
are asking for, then, yes, we would be in support of moving 
that jurisdiction. We will work with anyone.
    Mr. Levin. Do you, in your professional assessment, believe 
that, in fact, moving the jurisdiction would be in accordance 
with those criteria you just laid out?
    Mr. Schwartzman. Unfortunately, I cannot answer that 
question with finality. I would have to go back and check the 
rules a little bit more.
    Mr. Levin. Well, what is your gut tell you?
    Mr. Schwartzman. My gut tells me yes.
    Mr. Levin. Excellent answer. Thank you, appreciate that. 
With the time I have left, Ms. Keenan, I will turn to you. Not 
to embarrass you, but I was told by staff, your parents are in 
the audience, and I hope that you are as proud of Ms. Keenan as 
we are grateful to work with her. The Isakson and Roe Act 
extended VA work-study to specific activities in the Offices of 
Members of Congress, but there are some limitations there. One 
limitation is that, as written, these activities would not be 
permitted in member offices. Would you expand to member offices 
as well?
    Mr. Van Orden. The gentleman's time has expired. If you 
would like to do----
    Mr. Levin. Yes or no? Yes or no? Then I am done.
    Ms. Keenan. We would be open to that, yes.
    Mr. Levin. You would open to that. Excellent. Yield back.
    Mr. Van Orden. Thank you, Ranking Member Levin.
    The chair now recognizes my great friend from Kentucky, Mr. 
Morgan McGarvey, for 5 minutes.
    Mr. McGarvey. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank all of you 
guys for your testimony. I am really glad we get to dive a 
little deeper into these issues today, and I am happy to see 
that most of them are strong bipartisan bills that we can just 
polish a little bit here in this committee. I am also grateful 
that two of the bills I am co-leading with Chairman Van Orden 
and Rep. Kean are included in today's hearing.
    I wanted to focus on the discussion draft of the TAP reform 
bill, because I really want to make sure we get this one right. 
I think I speak for a lot of my colleagues, and they have 
spoken for themselves today, this is one where we do have some 
concern. There are some major areas for improvement within the 
Transition Assistance Program, and we need to make sure that 
TAP is accomplishing its mission, that it is not just death by 
PowerPoint. I appreciate the focus on TAP with this bill, but I 
want to guarantee that any version that makes it to markup 
seriously takes into consideration the views of the VSOs and is 
truly a comprehensive reform that works in tandem with the 
House Armed Services Committee to ensure smooth passage.
    Deciding if and how to pursue education is a huge part of 
any veteran's transition. We know that the Post-9/11 cohort is 
quickly becoming the largest and most educated veteran 
demographic in the United States. Yet the TAP reform bill in 
its current form does not touch much on this subject. Mr. 
Barefield, what educational elements would you suggest adding 
to the TAP reform bill? Have your members expressed particular 
concerns or items they would like to see in TAP regarding their 
GI Bill education benefits and what their options are?
    Mr. Barefield. Thank you for the question. When it comes 
down to education and the TAP program, our members would like 
to have someone be able to fully explain to them in a timely 
fashion what their education benefits would be and how they 
could utilize them to the best of their ability. Like you said, 
death by PowerPoint. The TAP program, as it is right now, does 
not have enough timeframe to adequately give that information. 
We would like to see that education piece expanded just a 
little bit more where they will be able to have a full 
discussion of all their education benefits and how they could 
utilize them to the best of their ability.
    Mr. McGarvey. Thank you. Mr. Schwartzman, with the unique 
position of your members, what are you hearing from those who 
went through TAP or who will go through TAP regarding their 
education and what are the biggest gaps in information for 
their education options?
    Mr. Schwartzman. Thank you very much. What I am hearing 
from my members is that the biggest challenge is in the 
presentation not accounting for those distinctions, those 
differences that may negatively impact our members in relation 
to accessing their service earned benefits. For example, there 
is a complicated line of duty determination process that the 
member must go through in order to qualify for certain service 
earned benefits through the VA. That is just one example. What 
we are hearing from those that do qualify, we are also hearing 
from members that unfortunately do not qualify, is that the 
curriculum just is not tailored to their needs.
    Mr. McGarvey. Thank you very much. I appreciate those. Mr. 
Chairman, I will yield back.
    Mr. Van Orden. Thank you, Mr. McGarvey.
    The chair now recognizes the gentlelady from Illinois, Ms. 
Ramirez, for 5 minutes.
    Ms. Ramirez. Thank you so much, Mr. Chairman. First, let me 
start by thanking every one of you that is here today, and 
everyone also that has been listening to the hearing today. It 
is really, really great to be able to hear from you and the 
ways that you continue to do the work to support our veterans 
and certainly our servicemembers as well.
    When I came to this committee, it was my goal that every 
veteran had access to benefits they rightfully earned. That was 
a priority for me and continues to be. At the same time, it was 
important that I was also advocating for policies that protect 
veterans from being defrauded or exploited by bad-actors. It is 
why I was so proud that my bill, H.R. 1767, the Student Veteran 
Benefits Restoration Act, passed through this committee with 
bipartisan support, something we do not do much in this 
Congress.
    This bill would restore the GI Bill benefits of student 
veterans who are wrongfully defrauded by for profit colleges 
and universities. I know, as you do, that education is one of 
the many pathways toward self improvement, toward self-
sufficiency, and it provides communities the opportunity to 
better their lives economically, socially, and professionally. 
Access to a quality education is one of the promises we made to 
our veterans, and we have to deliver.
    Today, we have been discussing another restoration bill, 
and while I am in support of any policy that protects our 
veterans and helps improve their lives, we also have to make 
sure we are not short-changing progress for our veterans by 
advocating for smaller reforms.
    That said, I have just a couple of questions I want to ask 
in the time that I have. Some of these are yes or no. For each 
of the witnesses here, could you answer the following questions 
with a yes or a no? We are considering another restoration bill 
today. Would this bill help students in the Department of 
Justice brings action against a fraudulent school? Mr. Marquis.
    Mr. Barefield. Can you repeat the question, ma'am?
    Ms. Ramirez. My question is the bill that we are actually 
taking up now, the other version of my bill, would that bill 
help students when the Department of Justice brings action 
against a fraudulent school?
    Mr. Barefield. Yes.
    Ms. Keenan. Yes, it would.
    Mr. Schwartzman. Yes, it would.
    Mr. John. I do not have knowledge of that, so I do not know 
that I can answer.
    Ms. Bullock-Pottinga. I am the same. I would have to look 
more into that before answering. Thank you.
    Ms. Ramirez. Actually, the version that we have will not be 
able to bring justice against fraudulent schools in the way 
that the bill that we passed out of here was doing. Thank you 
for your answers. I know you have seen a lot of bills.
    Let me answer another one for you here. The bill that we 
have now will not be able to give state approving agency acts 
to fraudulent schools. The question I have is, is it reasonable 
to say that while the bill we are discussing today makes good 
change, this bill is less comprehensive than my bill, which 
this committee marked up and passed unanimously back in July? I 
would like to ask this question to Ms. Keenan.
    Ms. Keenan. Thank you for the question. The VFW supports 
both bills. Whether passing them individually or combining them 
into a larger bill, what we really want to do is protect 
servicemembers, protect veterans and their benefits. We do not 
want them penalized if a school is acting badly. We think, you 
know, using provisions within both would give a wider range of 
protections against schools that commit fraud.
    Ms. Ramirez. Last, any witness can answer this. Should not 
we prioritize bipartisan, bicameral solutions to ensure 
veterans receive the restitution they deserve for education 
fraud? Mr. John, Ms. Keenan, any of you can answer.
    Mr. John. Perhaps within the scope of this committee, given 
the chairman's opening remarks, I would offer we should endorse 
nonpartisan reconciliation of the differences.
    Ms. Ramirez. We should prioritize bipartisan bicameral 
solutions to ensure that our veterans receive the restitution 
they deserve for education fraud. Thank you so much. I just 
want to put for the record that this is one of the committees 
where we actually pass bipartisan legislation. I look forward 
to working with Chairman Van Orden to make sure that we provide 
the absolute most support and protection for our student 
veterans.
    With that, I yield back.
    Mr. Van Orden. Thank you, Ms. Ramirez.
    The chair now recognizes my great friend from North 
Carolina, the honorable Mr. Davis, for 5 minutes. Welcome 
aboard.
    Mr. Davis. Thank you so much, Chairman Van Orden, to 
Ranking Member Levin. I really count it an honor to be here 
today and to appear at this hearing held by the House Veteran 
Affairs Subcommittee on Economic Opportunity.
    Before I go any further, I would like to just pause here as 
I see the representatives of VFW, our Disabled American 
Veterans, as well as Hire Heroes USA, and all those in the 
audience, thank you, for those who have served our country, 
that has worn the uniform, and those who have sacrificed. To 
all veterans and especially our disabled veterans, I salute you 
and thank you again.
    As we come before you today, I wish to speak in particular 
in support of bipartisan legislation that I introduced last 
week with my colleague and House Veterans Armed Services 
Committee member, Mr. Juan Ciscomani from Arizona. North 
Carolina's first district is the home of 46,000 veterans who we 
are fighting for every single day. H.R. 7653 is the 7th 
Veterans affairs related bill that I have personally worked on 
and sponsored in the 118 Congress. This piece of legislation 
will make a technical fix to the Veteran Readiness and 
Employment program to replace the term, as we mentioned, 
employment handicap with employment barrier, and the term 
serious employment handicap with serious employment barrier.
    While leaving the definitions unchanged, the word handicap 
is outdated and it does not adequately represent veterans. Our 
disabled vets have given life, limbs, to preserve our most 
cherished freedoms, and I believe we must do everything to 
return dignity and respect to them. In any contact with the VA, 
we must ensure they feel represented and heard. VA services 
must not only remain available, they must be accessible, and to 
all our heroes who have once worn the uniform of our Nation. 
For those who have provided incredible service to our country, 
they deserve in return quality service that considers them. As 
it was said, and I add, words indeed matter.
    Thank you so much for being here today. I come to join my 
colleagues to urge support for H.R. 7653. May God bless each 
and every one of you as you are advocating every single day for 
those who served our country. May God continue to bless this 
subcommittee. Thank you, Mr. Chair, for allowing this 
opportunity. I would like to in particular, also thank Mr. 
Ciscomani for helping and lead the way on this.
    Mr. Van Orden. Mr. Davis, you are always welcome here. You 
were not here earlier, but the ranking member and I decided to 
give people read onto the committee gift bags in the future. 
Come back. That is all I am saying. Very well.
    I want to thank everybody for attending this hearing. I 
appreciate the discussion today on these bills, and a lot of 
them need improvement, and that is good. That is why we do 
these things. This does provide a way for us to get feedback 
from people that are affected by these and whose vocation 
really is to protect our veterans. I appreciate everybody for 
that. I thank the members of the staff, the subcommittees. I 
think you guys are working very well together, and I know Mike 
and I have had discussions about this. We are very thankful for 
that. That you guys are putting aside partisan crap and just 
focusing on the veterans. That is very impressive. I really 
like to see that.
    I just want to have a couple closing remarks. Mr. 
Schwartzman do not let perfect be the enemy of great. When I 
read your 14 pages of testimony here, you know what? I am just 
going to give you some encouragement, make it eight pages of 
stuff that is much more hyper focused. When we get down so far 
in the granular level, you are weighing down the ability of 
these subcommittee staff to actually get to what is really 
pertinent, and the stuff you are saying is pertinent. I think 
that if we really look at that sort of stuff, we are going to 
see that we could have put a bunch of that aside and really get 
something great going because nothing is ever going to be 
perfect. I have only been in Congress for a little bit and 
figured that out within 4 seconds.
    During the TAP process, I want to make sure that we are 
holding individual people accountable. The Army, the Navy, the 
Air Force, the DOD, the VA, those are not individuals. Those 
are organizations. Until, again, we hold commissioned officers 
directly responsible on their FitReps or OERs for their 
promotion or transfer their servicemen and--women are not going 
to TAP until they are held personally accountable with a big 
red check mark on that evaluation form, nothing is going to 
change.
    On that note, the Department of Defense show up. I am going 
to speak directly to the Secretary of Defense again. Mr. 
Austin, show up, so we know what is important to you by giving 
the one thing back that you can never or giving the one thing 
that you can never get back, and that is your time. Again, you 
have over 2 million servicemen and--women that are underneath 
your purview, and you could send one person here to show these 
veterans that you actually care about them and the Active Duty 
servicemen and--women that you actually care about them. I am 
sick and tired of getting lip service from the Department of 
Defense about our veterans. It has been statistically proven 
that providing a good transition and off ramp to the civilian 
community does not encourage people getting out of the military 
earlier. Knock it off and show up, Mr. Secretary.
    You know what? I am going to give you an invitation right 
now, Secretary Austin. Mr. Levin, you okay with this?
    Mr. Levin. Yes.
    Mr. Van Orden. Good. The ranking member and I would like to 
extend a formal invitation to the Secretary of Defense to take 
one of those chairs and explain to us why apparently, he does 
not care enough about the Transition Assistance Program to send 
at least one of his subordinates.
    With that, that ends my comments. I now yield to Ranking 
Member Levin for his closing statements.
    Mr. Levin. Well, I appreciate everybody's hard work. I 
share the chairman's frustration that we have not gotten the 
time and attention of DOD on TAP, and I have been at this now 
for 5 years. We keep at it, though, and we just have to 
continue to collectively request their participation. We all 
have our different communication styles, but I certainly share 
the sentiment. I just want to thank all of our VSOs, again, for 
their tireless dedication and for their collaboration. I also 
share the chairman's thoughts around staff working together in 
a productive manner. That is critically important. We have to 
keep that up. As I said at the outset, the time is running 
short this Congress before it becomes a silly election season 
again. We have got to get everything done we can as quickly as 
we can.
    With that, Mr. Chairman, yield back.
    Mr. Van Orden. Thank you, Ranking Member Levin. Again, 
thank you all for your participation today in this hearing. I 
have received a number of statements for the record which will 
be submitted, again, for the record, as long as they meet 
submission requirements.
    I ask unanimous consent that all members have 5 legislative 
days to revise and extend their remarks and include extraneous 
materials. Without objection, so ordered. This hearing is 
adjourned.
    [Whereupon, at 12:31 p.m., the subcommittee was adjourned.]
    
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                         A  P  P  E  N  D  I  X

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                    Prepared Statements of Witnesses

                              ----------                              


                  Prepared Statement of Melissa Cohen

    Chairman Van Orden, Ranking Member Levin and other Members of the 
Subcommittee, thank you for inviting us here today to present our views 
on several bills that would affect Department of Veterans Affairs (VA) 
programs and services. Joining me today is Mr. Nathan Sanfilippo, 
Executive Director of Multichannel Technology at the Veterans 
Experience Office; Mr. Garth Miller, Executive Director of Member 
Services at the Veterans Health Administration; and Mr. Thomas 
Alphonso, Assistant Director of Education Service at the Veterans 
Benefits Administration (VBA).

H.R. 6656 ``Stuck on Hold Act''

    Section 2(a)(1) of this bill would require VA, for each VA customer 
service telephone line, to implement an automated system that informs 
callers about the anticipated wait time and automatically offers a 
callback to any caller with an anticipated wait time of more than 15 
minutes. Section 2(a)(2) would require VA to issue guidance as 
necessary to reduce the average wait time of callers to VA customer 
service telephone lines to not more than 15 minutes. This section would 
also require all calls to be answered in the order in which they are 
received.
    VA does not support this bill. VA provides superior customer 
service for Veterans and other stakeholders; and, currently, for all 
major VA contact centers, average wait times are less than 15 minutes, 
with some significantly less than 15 minutes. VA does not support 
section 2(a)(1) as callback systems are already available, and 
legislative authority is not required to obtain this functionality. 
Furthermore, for certain contact centers that use them, VA callback 
systems are activated for callers for wait time thresholds under 15 
minutes.
    VA's Enterprise Contact Center Council (ECCC) was established in 
2018 to improve contact center customer experience with participation 
from 22 VA single-leader contact centers. The ECCC is responsible for 
VA contact center modernization, developing capabilities to enhance 
touchpoints with Service members, Veterans, their families, caregivers, 
and survivors. VA contact center modernization and enhancement 
continues to be a multi-year journey, and the ECCC evolves as we move 
forward in these efforts. In Fiscal Year 2023, VA contact centers 
answered nearly 60 million calls with 77 percent of customers satisfied 
with the experience.
    VA does not support section 2(a)(2), as the section would require 
VA to issue guidance necessary to reduce the average wait time of 
callers to not more than 15 minutes. As previously mentioned, all major 
VA contact centers have wait times less than 15 minutes, with some 
significantly less. Therefore, changes to contact center guidance 
aren't necessary and would not significantly impact wait times. 
Creating a meaningful impact on wait times would require additional 
resources to hire more contact center representatives. To do so, VA 
would require additional funding.
    Section 2(a)(2) would also require all calls to be answered in the 
order in which they are received. VA currently provides preferential 
queuing for certain call types, such as survivors or Veterans in 
crisis, to service callers needing a quicker or more sensitive level of 
customer service. Under this bill, VA would not be able to provide 
preferential queuing to these vulnerable stakeholders.
    Mandatory and discretionary costing have not been evaluated as VA 
does not support the draft legislation.

H.R. 7323 (Disapproval of Courses Due to a Public Institution of Higher 
Learning Not Charging In-State Tuition to In-State Veterans)

    Under current law, VA must disapprove a course of education 
provided by a public institution of higher learning if the institution 
does not charge in-state tuition and fees for in-state ``covered 
individuals.'' ``Covered individuals'' include beneficiaries under 38 
U.S.C. chapters 30, 31, 33, and 35. This bill would amend 38 U.S.C. 
Sec.  3679(c) to include as ``covered individuals'' beneficiaries 
receiving educational assistance under the Selected Reserve Service 
Program pursuant to 10 U.S.C. chapter 1606.
    The amendments would take effect on the date of the bill's 
enactment and would apply with respect to an academic period that 
begins on or after August 1, 2024.
    VA supports this bill. This bill would allow chapter 1606 
beneficiaries to receive the same protections under the law as 
beneficiaries who receive benefits under other VA educational programs.
    No mandatory or discretionary costs are associated with this bill.

H.R. XXXX ``Fair Access to Co-ops for Veterans Act of 2024''

    The bill would amend 38 U.S.C. Sec.  3710(a)(12) to reauthorize VA 
to guarantee certain loans for the purchase of stock or membership in a 
cooperative housing (co-op) corporation. The bill would also revise 
section 3710(h) so that VA could not guarantee a co-op loan until after 
the Secretary prescribes regulations setting forth requirements for 
underwriting, loan processing, project standards, share eligibility, 
valuation, and other criteria the Secretary determines necessary. 
Revised subsection (h) would additionally require the Secretary to 
ensure that such regulations are consistent, to the extent the 
Secretary determines suitable, with Federal National Mortgage 
Association (Fannie Mae) requirements for the purchase or 
securitization of co-op loans.
    The bill would amend 38 U.S.C. Sec.  3729(b) to require Veterans to 
pay a fee of 2.03 percent of the total loan amount for any cooperative 
loan, including an assumption of a cooperative loan, in addition to the 
statutory loan fee required under the same section. The bill would also 
require VA to use existing authority under 38 U.S.C. Sec.  532 to 
advertise the availability of VA-guaranteed co-op loans. Last, the bill 
would allow VA to issue guidance implementing the new authority prior 
to the agency's promulgation of regulations.
    VA would support this bill, if amended. VA supports the opportunity 
for VA to begin guaranteeing co-op loans for Veterans. VA also believes 
the Fair Access to Co-Ops for Veterans Act of 2024 could provide a good 
start toward that opportunity; however, there are several amendments 
that must be made before VA could implement the program successfully, 
and this testimony highlights a number of them. VA would also need 
resources to overcome operational challenges to success. Consequently, 
while VA applauds the bill as a good starting point, VA could support 
the bill if it were amended and supported with appropriations and if 
Congress identified offsets to the new benefits costs and 
administrative costs.
    Perhaps the most significant concern is that the bill would not 
give Veterans access to enough funding for the benefit to be of much 
help, if any. This is because the bill would keep intact 38 U.S.C. 
Sec.  3703(a)(1)(A)(iv), which allows VA to guarantee a loan exceeding 
$144,000, but that currently excludes co-op loans. By leaving the 
provision unchanged, co-op loans would effectively be capped at 
$144,000. This conflict alone would make the benefit unusable for most 
co-op purchases.
    VA is also concerned about a potential statutory conflict relating 
to lien priority. Section 3703(d)(3) requires that, for the most part, 
VA-guaranteed loans are to be secured by a first lien on the realty. 
But a borrower in a co-op receives shares in a corporation (and a right 
to occupy a specific unit), not a title to realty, meaning VA's 
guaranteed loan would not be secured by the realty itself and, as a 
result, could not be secured by a first lien against it. In short, 
compliance with the plain language is not possible. Even if VA were to 
consider the interest in the shares as tantamount to a lien on the 
realty, Veterans would still be unable to meet the requirement in many 
situations. This is because inferior lien positions are not uncommon 
among co-op loans. Instead, co-op projects are often subject to 
outstanding liens that take priority over the individual shareholder's. 
Thus, if Congress intends for VA to assume the risk of guaranteeing an 
inferior lien--which is a prospect VA could support in cases where the 
project can demonstrate a strong enough financial undergirding--VA 
believes a statutory change would be necessary.
    It is also uncertain whether the occupancy requirements of 38 
U.S.C. Sec.  3704(c) or the statutory loan assumption requirements of 
38 U.S.C. Sec.  3714 would be enforceable for co-op loans. Those 
sections apply to ``residential property.'' VA is concerned that the 
plain language term ``residential property'' could be read to exclude 
shares in a corporation, creating a loophole for the purchase of 
investment properties or for circumventing assumption processing.
    Another uncertainty relates to refinances. VA supports the bill's 
authorization of purchases only, rather than further expanding to 
include refinances. VA believes the focus should be on developing a 
viable co-op purchase program before adding extra layers of complexity. 
Nevertheless, the only way to ensure against legal challenges for VA 
following the law (i.e., for VA refusing to guarantee a refinance of a 
co-op loan) would be to insert a provision specifically excepting co-op 
loans from qualifying for refinance.
    Another issue requiring detailed attention involves procedures 
around loan termination. The bill does not direct VA how to handle 
complications that could arise from a default on a guaranteed co-op 
loan. Generally, under 38 U.S.C. Sec.  3732, holders that foreclose VA-
guaranteed loans have a statutory option to convey the liquidated 
property to the Secretary, post-foreclosure, in exchange for VA's ``net 
value'' payment. However, with co-op loans, borrowers typically receive 
an ownership share of the corporate entity, not a title interest in a 
particular housing unit. VA is uncertain how the liquidation, 
possession, and resale of the fractional corporate shares would fit 
within section 3732's prescribed procedures on default. At a more 
fundamental level, VA does not support the concept of the Secretary 
becoming a shareholder in co-op housing projects. There are several 
reasons for VA's position, not least of which is that the Secretary is 
an officer of the United States, but serving as a shareholder in a 
cooperative housing unit could lead to conflicts with that role. 
Therefore, VA believes it is essential to craft a unique loan 
termination procedure specifically for co-op loans.
    Relatedly, the bill does not address default by the corporate 
entity when the co-op project becomes insolvent or is dissolved due to 
no fault of the Veteran. For example, the bill provides no authority to 
help a Veteran whose shares have been significantly devalued through 
the corporation's bankruptcy or who lives in a co-op project that is 
foreclosed. VA is concerned that the current statutory authority does 
not offer the right tools to help Veterans who find themselves in such 
a situation. VA has not had time to fully analyze how to address these 
sorts of circumstances and believes that consulting experts in the co-
op industry is necessary.
    A final legal concern for VA is the potential shortage of liquidity 
for the program. While this bill would reauthorize VA-guaranteed co-op 
loans, the availability of loans to Veterans would depend heavily on 
the willingness of private lenders to make them. In large part, 
cashflows for lenders that originate VA-guaranteed loans derive from 
investors in mortgage-backed securities (MBS). The Government National 
Mortgage Association (Ginnie Mae) is the principal entity that pools 
VA-guaranteed loans into MBS. It is VA's understanding that, presently, 
Ginnie Mae accepts only certain co-ops, i.e., Federal Housing 
Administration co-op loans, into MBS. Therefore, VA recommends 
consulting Ginnie Mae to address any changes they may see as necessary 
for the authorization of VA-guaranteed co-op loans. Otherwise, without 
a clear investment vehicle for the loans, and given the complexities of 
co-op lending, VA anticipates lender participation may be low.
    Co-op share purchase loans present a unique ownership framework as 
compared to the more traditional ownership and housing credit 
transactions VA currently oversees in its housing loan program. Given 
that VA has not had authority to guarantee co-op loans for over a 
decade and there have been significant changes in the housing market 
since 2011, VA does not have personnel with the expertise needed to 
implement this legislation. VA anticipates needing to hire at least 11 
full-time employees, all of whom would need experience and expertise, 
to help VA establish and maintain a world-class co-op housing loan 
program for Veterans.
    VA readily acknowledges that the list of statutory challenges is 
long and complex, but VA is committed to working with Congress and co-
op housing stakeholders to ensure a viable co-op loan program. It is 
for this same reason--that is, to ensure a viable program for 
Veterans--that VA must also emphasize the importance of Congress 
providing the agency with the adequate administrative resources. 
Success depends on it.
    VA estimates new benefits costs of $5,000 in the first year, 
$15,000 over 5 years, and $80,000 over 10 years. VA also estimates $2 
million in new administrative costs in the first year, $11.4 million 
over 5 years, and $24.8 million over 10 years.

H.R. XXXX ``Combat Veterans Pre-Enrollment Act of 2024''

    This bill would require VA to establish a pilot program that would 
permit certain members of the Armed Forces to pre-enroll in VA's health 
care enrollment system.
    Section 2(a) of the bill would require VA, by January 1, 2025, to 
establish a program to carry out, to the maximum extent practicable, 
all activities necessary to permit a member of the Armed Forces 
described in subsection (b) to enroll in VA health care on the date of 
separation of the member.
    Section 2(b) would define as eligible members of the Armed Forces 
those who: (1) are performing active service; (2) served on active duty 
in a theater of combat operations or in combat against a hostile force 
during a period of hostilities after November 11, 1998; and (3) would 
be eligible for enrollment in VA health care on the date of the 
separation of such member.
    Section 2(c) would require VA, in conjunction with the Department 
of Defense (DoD) and the Department of Homeland Security (DHS), to 
establish a mechanism to permit a member of the Armed Forces to elect 
to participate in the pre-enrollment program during the 180-day period 
that precedes the date of separation of the member from active service. 
Within 180 days of the date of enactment, and annually thereafter, the 
VA-DoD Joint Executive Committee would be required to submit to 
Congress a briefing on the efforts of VA and DoD to implement the 
mechanism described above.
    Section 2(d) would require VA to submit an annual report to 
Congress that includes information on the results of this program, 
including demographic data of participants.
    Section 2(e) would require the Comptroller General to submit to 
Congress an analysis of the effectiveness of this program and 
recommendations with respect to methods to improve such program.
    Section 2(f) would provide that the authority to carry out the 
program described in subsection (a) ends on the date that is 3 years 
after the date of the enactment of this Act.
    VA does not support this bill. VA fully supports the intent of this 
legislation and is working in a number of ways that would complement or 
exceed the requirements of this bill, but VA does not believe this 
legislation is necessary as it would provide no new authority in this 
area.
    Currently, there are 43 VA Liaisons for Healthcare located at DoD 
installations and Military Treatment Facilities (MTF). In addition, 
there are 5 Regional VA Liaisons for Healthcare who provide virtual 
services to all other DoD installations and MTFs. The VA Liaisons 
support pre-enrollment for transitioning Service members by 
coordinating their transition of health care from DoD to VA and 
facilitating access to VA care. The VA Liaisons, who are nurses and 
social workers, educate Service members and their families about VA 
health care with a focus on their specialized care needs. They also 
connect Service members with their home VA health care facility prior 
to discharge from the military. VA Liaisons for Healthcare coordinate 
Service members' initial VA health care registration with their home VA 
facility and secure health care appointments prior to military 
discharge. Active-duty Service members who are not yet eligible for 
enrollment into the Patient Enrollment System can be registered into 
the Patient Enrollment System, and VA can proactively schedule 
appointments pending enrollment once the Service member is issued a 
Certificate of Release or Discharge from Active Duty (DD Form 214) and 
VA verifies Veteran status. Engaging with transitioning Service members 
while they are still on active-duty status reduces the gap between DoD 
and VA immediately post-service and limits the potential for 
disruptions or lapses in care. Most of VA's efforts are focused on 
Service members who have known health conditions that will require 
ongoing health care; these individuals may have been injured or 
incurred an illness or disability during service, and such conditions 
could have manifested outside of combat situations. In this regard, the 
bill's focus on only combat Veterans would be narrower than VA's 
current efforts. VA Liaisons for Healthcare also work with the 
Transition Assistance Program (TAP) and with VBA outreach experts to 
facilitate these transitioning Service members in applying for both 
health care and benefits.
    Additionally, VA has already established mechanisms with several of 
the branches of the Armed Forces to facilitate transmission of 
discharge documents (specifically, the DD Form 214) that establish a 
Veteran's qualifications and military history; this information is 
necessary to processing enrollment applications by ensuring that former 
Service members meet the threshold eligibility criteria (such as a 
qualifying discharge under 38 U.S.C. Sec.  5303 and minimum duty 
requirements under 38 U.S.C. Sec.  5303A).
    While there are fewer members of the Coast Guard who qualify for VA 
health care based on combat status, the Regional VA Liaisons for 
Healthcare that serve smaller DoD sites also serve Coast Guard 
locations to provide a comprehensive transition into VA health care.
    We note that under section 111 of the Honoring our Promise to 
Address Comprehensive Toxics Act of 2022 (Pub. L. No. 117-168), combat 
Veterans now have 10 years from the date of separation or discharge to 
qualify for VA health care under 38 U.S.C. Sec.  1710(e)(1)(D). This 
bill would seemingly further enhance this benefit by facilitating a 
quicker enrollment process for these separating Service members.
    VA has concerns with the timelines set forth in this bill. 
Initially, it is not clear that VA could establish all of the 
mechanisms required by January 1, 2025. Additionally, it is not clear 
that VA could enroll every Veteran on the date of discharge or release, 
as there could be delays in the receipt of key documents (such as the 
DD Form 214), or such documents may be submitted too late in the day 
for VA to process them on the same day. Delays with instances where the 
Service member's character of discharge requires adjudication by the 
Veterans Benefits Administration (VBA). VA recommends the bill be 
amended to provide further flexibility in this regard.
    VA does not believe the bill would result in a material change in 
enrollment or utilization rates given current efforts to enroll 
transitioning Service members. However, VA would require additional 
staff and resources to facilitate this type of engagement for all 
separating Service members and to provide the reports required by this 
bill. Mandatory and discretionary costing have not been evaluated as VA 
does not support the draft legislation.

H.R. XXXX [Title 10 TAP Reform]

    Section 2(a)-(g), (i) and (n)(1) of this bill would require DoD to 
establish a pre-separation counseling program provided by a third 
party. VA defers to DoD regarding these provisions.

    VA cites concerns with sections 2(h), 2(k), 5, and 6 of this bill.

    Section 2(h) would require a presentation by a Veterans Service 
Organization that promotes VA benefits available to Veterans. This 
section would require VA to review and approve the presentation in 
advance. This section would also require the presentation to be 
presented by a national representative of a Veterans Service 
Organization (VSO) recognized under 38 U.S.C. Sec.  5902. VA cites 
concerns with section 2(h), which would create redundancy with the 1-
day course already provided by VA as described below.
    First, established in 1991, TAP consists of five core curricula 
shared among the interagency partners (VA, DoD, Department of Labor 
(DOL), and Small Business Administration (SBA)). These courses are 
developed and maintained through these partnerships to ensure 
continuity, consistency, and relevance while reducing redundancy for 
the transitioning Service members. VA, DoD, DOL, and SBA collaborate 
through an annual evaluation process by reviewing and approving the TAP 
curricula through the interagency governance structure. Each agency is 
responsible for the delivery or facilitation of its curriculum.
    The 1-day VA Benefits and Services (BAS) course helps Service 
members and their families understand how to navigate the resources 
within VA, including how to access the benefits and services they have 
earned through their military careers. More specifically, the BAS 
course provides the skills, resources, and tools needed to support 
emotional and physical health, career readiness, and economic stability 
in civilian life.
    Further, on January 2, 2024, VA launched VSO participation in the 
BAS course. VA-accredited VSO representatives play an integral role in 
assisting transitioning Service members and Veterans, as well as their 
spouses, families, and caregivers, throughout pivotal stages in their 
transition from military to civilian life. VA extended an invitation to 
VA-accredited VSO representatives working on or near military 
installations to directly connect with attendees during the structured 
45-minute session at the end of VA TAP One-Day to:

      Highlight the value of using a VA-accredited VSO 
representative and how they can serve as a trusted advocate and 
resource before, during, and after their transition.

      Inform transitioning Service members that VA-accredited 
VSO representatives help ensure they have access to responsible and 
qualified representation during the VA benefits claims process.

      Remind transitioning Service members that VA-accredited 
VSO representatives provide services without charge and offer 
professional assistance to help transitioning Service members, Veterans 
and their families receive the benefits they have earned and deserve--
health care, disability, employment, education, financial benefits, and 
more.

      Provide information on the unique programs and resources 
that are available from their respective VSO.

    The goal of this collaborative effort is to educate, inform, and 
empower attendees by providing valuable VSO information and resources, 
fostering connections with VSOs, and increasing benefit utilization.
    Section 2(j) would require DoD to transmit VA Service member 
information to include contact information. VA defers to DoD.
    Section 2(k) would prohibit DoD from providing a DD Form 214 until 
the Service member receives the required pre-separation counseling. VA 
cites concerns with this section.
    Proof of separation is required to apply for Veterans' Group Life 
Insurance (VGLI) or the Servicemembers' Group Life Insurance Disability 
Extension (SGLI DE). Separating members have 1 year and 120 days to 
apply for VGLI, but if they apply within the first 240 days after 
separation, they can be approved without answering any health 
questions. They can apply for the SGLI DE any time within 2 years 
following separation to receive a free extension of their 
Servicemembers' Group Life Insurance coverage for up to 2 years 
following separation. Given these deadlines to apply and understanding 
that there are extenuating circumstances that may prevent a member from 
receiving a pre-separation briefing, withholding the DD Form 214 could 
prevent a separating member from being able to obtain needed life 
insurance coverage because they are unable to provide proof of their 
separation from service.
    DD Form 214 is often utilized by VA claims processors as a ready 
means to determine whether a former Service member is eligible for VA 
benefits. Former Service members may submit the DD Form 214 directly to 
VA for that purpose as a means of expediting their claims. VBA is 
concerned that withholding a DD Form 214 from former Service members 
who do not complete required pre-separation counseling may needlessly 
delay claims processing and could also impede automated claims 
processing efforts.
    VA notes that the use of the term ``provide'' in section 2(k) 
allows for multiple interpretations. If a Service member did not 
complete required pre-separation counseling, it is unclear if the 
intent is for DoD to generate the DD Form 214 and withhold the Veteran 
copy from the Service member, or if the intent is for DoD not to 
generate a DD Form 214 and potentially maintain the Service member on 
active duty. If the intent is the former, VA notes that when a Service 
member separates from active duty, the Service Department provides a 
copy of the DD Form 214 to VA. As such, if a DD Form 214 is generated 
and provided to VA, Service members may request a copy of the form from 
VA. VA believes such a process may diminish any meaningful incentive 
withholding a DD Form 214 could provide to encourage Service members to 
receive pre-separation counseling. VA recommends adding clarity as to 
the intent of the provision. VA is also concerned that it may be an 
inefficient use of administrative resources and be disrespectful to 
Service members who were unable to avail themselves of pre-separation 
counseling due to extenuating circumstances.
    Section 2(l) would require DOL, in consultation with VA, DoD, and 
DHS, to enter into contracts with public, private, and nonprofit 
entities under which such entities would provide individualized 
employment counseling for members of the Armed Forces and their 
spouses. VA defers to DOL and DoD on this section.
    Section 2(m) would require DoD, in consultation with VA and DOL, to 
establish a curriculum based on TAP to support a pilot program for 
spouses of Service members. This section would require counseling under 
the pilot program. VA notes that DoD has equities involved and 
recommend that the Committee solicit views from DoD.
    Separating members receive a significant amount of information 
about military and VA benefits at TAP briefings and having the spouse 
participate would help to ensure that both the member and spouse are 
aware of all the benefits and services available to them, particularly 
life insurance benefits which have strict deadlines to apply. VA 
anticipates additional resources would be required for implementation 
of this section and looks forward to working with Congress.
    Section 2(n)(2) would require VA to submit a report on VSOs that 
presented, as would be required under section (h), the number of 
Service members who attended the presentations, and any recommendations 
regarding changes to the presentations. VA has no objection to this 
section as it relates to VA reporting on VSO participation in our 
Benefits and Services Course.
    As stated above, VA has already approved and deployed a 
standardized VSO presentation into VA's BAS 1-day course. VA is already 
monitoring the program and looking for areas of opportunity for 
continuous improvement.
    Section 3 would require the Comptroller General to conduct a study 
on the Skillbridge programs under 10 U.S.C. Sec.  1143(e). VA defers to 
DoD and the Government Accountability Office on this section.
    Section 4(a) would amend 38 U.S.C. Sec.  4101 by including a 
Service member eligible for TAP in the definition of ``eligible 
person'' for purposes of chapter 41, which governs job counseling, 
training, and placement services for Veterans. Section 4(b) would amend 
38 U.S.C. Sec.  4103A(a)(1) by including Service members eligible for 
TAP as persons who may receive intensive services and placements from 
Disabled Veterans' Outreach Program specialists under chapter 41 to 
meet their employment needs. VA has no objection to section 4.
    VA does not support section 5. Under current 38 U.S.C. Sec.  
6320(b)(1), VA Solid Start (VASS) employees conduct individualized 
conversations tailored to the needs of recently separated Service 
members to increase awareness and utilization of VA benefits and 
services. VASS calls are not scripted and are driven solely by the 
needs of the individual at the time of each interaction. VASS employees 
have the necessary training and resources to provide information about 
all VA benefits to interested Veterans. If amended, section 5(b) of the 
bill would require the VASS program to provide TAP materials to all 
VASS-eligible individuals, regardless of their interest in the 
materials. This could overwhelm Veterans in their pursuit for specific, 
individualized information as TAP materials cover all VA benefits. VASS 
is designed to augment TAP by narrowing information specific to 
individuals after they have transitioned from active service by 
providing materials and electronic links specifically discussed during 
the one-on-one call between the VASS representative and the Veteran. 
This includes access to the online TAP curriculum, if appropriate or 
requested. This requirement would undermine the goal of a personalized 
experience.
    Section 5(c) would require the VASS program to gather and analyze 
data assessing the effectiveness of TAP, a program for which it has no 
operational access or oversight. VA TAP already assesses the 
effectiveness of the VA TAP program and seeks opportunities for 
continuous improvement.
    Section 6 would require VA to establish a pilot program that would 
permit certain members of the Armed Forces to pre-enroll in VA's 
healthcare enrollment system. This section is identical to the 
unnumbered bill discussed above titled ``Combat Veterans Pre-Enrollment 
Act of 2024. As noted above regarding the ``Combat Veterans Pre-
Enrollment Act of 2024'' bill, VA does not support section 6 of this 
bill.

H.R. XXXX [Relating to Flight Training]

    This bill would amend 38 U.S.C. Sec.  3313(g)(3)(C) to limit the 
amount of educational assistance payable for flight training under the 
Post-9/11 GI Bill. This bill would establish a $100,000 maximum total 
amount payable for flight training fees for an individual first 
pursuing a flight training program offered by a public institution of 
higher learning (IHL) on or after August 1, 2025. For each fiscal year, 
the Secretary would have to provide a cost-of-living percentage 
increase in the maximum amount payable.
    VA would support this bill, if amended. VA supports establishing a 
$100,000 fee cap that is adjusted annually by the Consumer Price Index 
for flight training programs. This approach is consistent with VA's 
published Fiscal Year 2024 legislative proposal that aimed to prevent 
VA from providing unlimited amounts of payment for flight training at 
public schools. However, it is unclear whether the lifetime cap would 
apply to both degree and non-degree flight programs offered by public 
IHLs. Additionally, VA has concerns with the effective date, as 
implementation would require IT system changes and may significantly 
impact the timeline for full implementation of the Digital GI Bill 
initiative. VA welcomes the opportunity to work with the Committee to 
provide technical assistance to ensure that this bill meets its 
intended goal.
    Mandatory savings to the Readjustment Benefits account are 
estimated to be $0 in 2024, $2.2 million over 5 years, and $5.0 million 
over 10 years. No VBA administrative costs are associated with this 
bill. VA estimates the information technology costs associated with the 
enactment of this legislation to be $3.2 million. VA would implement 
the new rules into the Digital GI Bill (DGIB) platform solution and 
make these changes within the current modernization effort. 
Specifically, changes to the data interfaces and microservices for 
Benefits Manager, My Education Benefits, and changes to our ``Rules'' 
and ``Letters'' standard requirements would be necessary. Due to 
current DGIB priorities (retiring the Benefits Delivery Network and 
increasing Automation), VA would not be able to start implementing this 
solution until the last quarter of calendar year 2025. This estimate is 
based on current priorities and funding levels staying as is.

H.R. XXXX [Restoration of Entitlement to Educational Assistance due to 
Violation of Prohibitions]

    This bill would restore entitlement to educational assistance to 
individuals who pursue a course or program of education at an 
educational institution found to have violated certain prohibitions on 
advertising, sales and enrollment practices.
    VA supports this bill. This bill would amend 38 U.S.C. Sec.  3696 
to authorize VA to restore entitlement to individuals who received 
educational assistance under 38 U.S.C. chapters 30, 31, 32, 33 or 35 or 
10 U.S.C. chapters 1606 or 1607 at an educational institution when the 
Under Secretary for Benefits determines that the educational 
institution violated 38 U.S.C. Sec.  3696(a), (c), or (d). Those 
provisions prohibit educational institutions from engaging in 
substantial misrepresentation; limit certain commissions, bonuses, and 
other incentive payments; and require educational institutions to 
maintain records of all advertising, sales, or enrollment materials 
utilized by or on behalf of the institution during the preceding 2-year 
period.
    Additionally, this bill would amend 38 U.S.C. Sec.  3696(h) to 
require that an educational institution or the owner of an educational 
institution, upon a final determination by the Under Secretary for 
Benefits, repay to VA all amounts of educational assistance paid to the 
educational institution by or on behalf of an individual who pursued a 
course or program of education at the institution during the time 
period when the violation occurred. Educational institutions must agree 
to this repayment as a condition of approval. Finally, this bill would 
add a new 38 U.S.C Sec.  3679(g) that would permit VA to disapprove a 
course or program of education offered by the educational institution 
until the educational institution repays the amount of educational 
assistance to VA. This bill would apply to a violation that occurs on 
or after the date that is 180 days after the date of enactment.
    VA supports the protections this bill seeks to afford our Nation's 
Veterans and believes this bill would help safeguard taxpayers' dollars 
when violations are found. However, VA believes this bill should also 
apply when disapproval actions are taken by the State Approving 
Agencies (SAA) under 38 U.S.C. Sec.  3679(f)(2). Doing so would expand 
oversight and allow for the most expeditious process for safeguarding 
the integrity of the GI Bill. VA is also concerned that, if a SAA were 
to disapprove a program, this bill would not provide VA with the 
authority to recoup educational assistance from the educational 
institution. For this reason, VA recommends amending the bill to allow 
for restoration of entitlement and recoupment of educational assistance 
whenever there is a finding under 38 U.S.C. Sec.  3696 by either the 
SAA or the Under Secretary for Benefits.
    Savings to the mandatory Readjustment Benefits account are 
estimated to be $0 in 2024, $10.7 million over 5 years, and $29.1 
million over 10 years. No discretionary costs are associated with this 
bill.

H.R. XXXX [Related to the Work Study Allowance]

    This bill would amend 38 U.S.C. Sec.  3485(a)(5) to include 
employment activities at the offices of a committee of the Senate or 
House of Representatives. The bill would also include, as qualifying 
work-study activities, activities supporting casework, policymaking, 
and oversight related to VA activities carried out at the offices of 
the Senate or House of Representatives, the Congressional Research 
Service, the Government Accountability Office, or the Congressional 
Budget Office.
    VA supports this bill. This bill would expand eligible activities 
that qualify for the work-study allowance.
    Mandatory costs to the Readjustment Benefits account are estimated 
to be $348,000 in 2024, $4.7 million over 5 years, and $12.1 million 
over 10 years. No discretionary costs are associated.

H.R. XXXX [Terminology Regarding Veteran Employment]

    This bill would update terminology in title 38, United States Code, 
by replacing the term ``employment handicap'' with ``employment 
barrier.''
    VA supports this bill. Additionally, VA recommends an additional 
amendment to the bill to replace the term ``serious employment 
handicap'' with ``serious employment barrier'' in title 38.
    No mandatory or discretionary costs are associated with this bill

Conclusion

    This concludes my statement. We would be happy to answer any 
questions you or other members of the Subcommittee may have.
                                 ______
                                 

                 Prepared Statement of James Rodriguez

                              Introduction

    Chairman Van Orden, Ranking Member Levin, and distinguished Members 
of the Subcommittee, thank you for the invitation to testify today. It 
has been an honor to lead the U.S. Department of Labor's (DOL) 
Veterans' Employment and Training Service (VETS) for the last 3 years.
    VETS' mission is to prepare America's veterans, service members, 
and military spouses for meaningful careers, provide them with 
employment resources and expertise, protect their employment rights, 
and promote their employment opportunities. VETS administers programs 
designed to address the employment, training, and job security needs of 
over 196,000 military service members who transition to civilian life 
each year,\1\ 8.6 million military veterans in the U.S. civilian labor 
force,\2\ over 775,000 Selected National Guard and Reserve members,\3\ 
and nearly 920,000 military spouses (578,952 active duty and 344,716 
Guard and Reserve spouses).\4\ Along with our partners, we are 
committed to ensuring the best transition for our service members and 
their families. Below, VETS provides its views on the legislation being 
considered at this hearing:
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \1\ See Department of Defense Congressional Report, Improvements to 
the Transition Assistance Program, August 2022.
    \2\ See Bureau of Labor Statistics, Labor Force Statistics from the 
Current Population Survey, Household Data Annual Averages 2023, Table 
48-Employment status of persons 18 years and over by veteran status, 
age, and sex, available at: https://www.bls.gov/cps/cpsaat48.htm.
    \3\ Department of Defense, Defense Manpower Data Center, Military 
Personnel Report, Selected Reserve Personnel by Reserve Component and 
Rank/Grade (Updated Monthly), July 2023, available at: https://
dwp.dmdc.osd.mil/dwp/app/dod-data-reports/workforce-reports
    \4\ Military OneSource - Demographics Profile of the Military 
Community, 2022, available at: https://
demographics.militaryonesource.mil/.

   H.R. XXX, to amend titles 10 and 38, United States Code, to make 
 improvements to certain programs for a member nearing separation, or 
 for a veteran who recently separated, from the Armed Forces, and for 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
                            other purposes.

    Section 2 of the bill contains several amendments related to the 
Transition Assistance Program (TAP). Subsection (l) of Section 2 would 
amend 10 U.S.C. Sec.  1144 to codify the Employment Navigator & 
Partnership Program (ENPP) into law. While we support the intent of 
codifying the program, as drafted, this subsection would enact a 
variety of highly prescriptive requirements that would limit which 
entities could enter into contracts with DOL to provide 
``individualized employment counseling for members of the Armed Forces 
and their spouses.'' Further, the subsection would limit the number of 
those partnerships to a minimum of five and a maximum of ten 
organizations. And it would require that each entity be compensated 
based on each individual who receives employment services provided by 
the entity.
    DOL is currently carrying out ENPP under our current TAP statutory 
authority. While we support specifically codifying ENPP into law, we 
strongly oppose the restrictive requirements in the bill, which seem 
designed to ensure federal contracts for a limited number of large 
organizations at the expense of other mid-sized and smaller 
organizations. These anticompetitive requirements are not needed and 
run contrary to the goal of providing ENPP to all service members and 
their spouses through 59 (and growing) non-governmental partner 
organizations in all parts of the world, including communities where 
smaller and more local organizations may be better situated to provide 
those services.
    We have serious concerns about compensating ENPP partner 
organizations for each individual who receives employment services 
provided by the entity, as ENPP currently does not incur such costs to 
the Federal Government or participants. Under the VETS program model, 
Employment Navigator services are incorporated within the overall VETS 
TAP contract. ENPP partner services (such as job placement, hiring 
events, training services, and local supportive services) are provided 
through no-cost agreements with the individual partner organizations. 
Currently, for eligibility, organizations applying to be ENPP partners 
need to demonstrate that their programs are mature, self-sufficient, 
and at no direct cost to DOL, the Transitioning Service Members (TSMs), 
or their spouses. For those eligible organizations, DOL enters into 
agreements for ENPP partnerships. In effect, Employment Navigators are 
referring TSMs to organizations, under ENPP voluntary partnerships with 
DOL, to receive services that those organizations already provide. DOL 
believes this current model is effective and allows the maximum 
flexibility for ENPP partners and ENPP operations. On the other hand, 
creating a payment structure as required by this subsection would 
create a strong financial incentive for ENPP partner organizations to 
serve as many TSMs as possible, regardless of how successful they are 
in placing them into employment with good wages and job quality or 
considering the service members' own satisfaction in the job 
placements. Moreover, the subsection provides no direct mechanism for 
DOL to improve those outcomes or otherwise hold those contractors 
accountable. I would also like to highlight that scaling the ENPP 
worldwide for all TSMs would require additional resources for VETS. 
Moreover, incorporating the cost structure outlined in this subsection 
would require additional resources for successful implementation.
    ENPP is designed to provide an individualized approach for our 
service members and their spouses, by taking the concepts of what they 
learn in our TAP workshops and putting them into practice. Each TSM 
served by ENPP may have differing needs, be at different stages of 
career readiness, and could need different levels of assistance. For 
example, some of our ENPP clients meet monthly with an Employment 
Navigator over the course of their last year of service. During these 
meetings, our Employment Navigators assist these individuals with 
developing a career plan; reviewing their resumes; and connecting them 
with apprenticeship and SkillBridge opportunities, hiring events, 
mentorship and networking opportunities, and/or additional support such 
as legal, health care, housing, or financial assistance in addition to 
searching for employment opportunities through our partners. As an 
individual's needs are identified, Employment Navigators facilitate 
their connection to an approved ENPP partner organization(s) that can 
assist them either where they are currently stationed or where they are 
looking to transition. VETS believes all of the Employment Navigator 
and partner services encompass the suite of employment-related services 
that a TSM may require throughout their transition and believes this 
flexible and holistic model should continue. As explained in more 
detail below, there is clear evidence that ENPP is an innovative and 
effective program.
    In addition, subsection (m) of Section 2 would require the 
Department of Defense (DoD), in coordination with the Department of 
Veterans Affairs (VA) and DOL, to establish a 3-year pilot program to 
provide counseling at military installations to military spouses of 
TSMs on the benefits and assistance available to military families and 
veterans from each Department. DOL supports this proposal and notes 
that our Transition Employment Assistance for Military Spouses (TEAMS) 
curriculum would form an excellent foundation for, and complement to, 
this pilot. The TEAMS workshops are designed to help military spouses 
plan and prepare for their job search in pursuit of their employment 
goals. In Fiscal Year (FY) 2023, VETS provided 398 TEAMS workshops to 
more than 2,075 military spouses and caregivers. We continue to work 
with DoD to schedule and promote TEAMS events.
    Section 4 of the bill would amend the authorizing language for the 
Jobs for Veterans State Grants (JVSG) program to add members of the 
Armed Forces eligible for TAP as persons eligible to receive priority 
for DOL's intensive services and the placement service program 
conducted by Disabled Veterans' Outreach Program specialists. DOL 
supports the goal of expanding JVSG eligibility, as it will allow TSMs 
to receive career services in American Job Centers from the staff who 
are well qualified to help them navigate the wide range of services 
available to them through the public workforce system.
    We welcome the opportunity to provide detailed technical assistance 
on these aspects of the bill and to work with the Subcommittee on our 
shared goals, so that we can continue the success of the ENPP and JVSG 
programs and build on the TEAMS pilot effort.
    The bill would make a variety of other changes to the portions of 
the TAP program administered by DoD and VA, and to other programs 
outside of the purview of DOL. On these matters, VETS defers to the 
respective Departments where their equities are impacted.

               Other Bills Considered by the Subcommittee

    As to the remaining bills under consideration for this hearing, DOL 
defers to other respective Departments where their equities are 
impacted. Of course, should these bills be amended in a way that raises 
DOL equities, we would be happy to further review them and provide 
technical assistance upon request.

                              TAP Overview

    In considering this legislation, it may be helpful for the 
Subcommittee to review the current structure of TAP, DOL's role in the 
program, how we are working to transform employment opportunities 
during the transition process, recent program data, and related 
matters.
    TAP provides training, resources, and assistance to separating and 
retiring service members on active duty, Guard, Reserve, and their 
spouses, as defined in 10 U.S.C. Sec.  1144. TAP is a cooperative 
effort by VETS, DoD, the Department of Education (ED), the Department 
of Homeland Security (DHS), the VA, the Small Business Administration 
(SBA), and the Office of Personnel Management (OPM).
    Congress originally established TAP in the National Defense 
Authorization Act (NDAA) for Fiscal Year 1991 (P.L. 101-510). This 
enactment authorized the development of a voluntary program consisting 
of transition assistance counseling and employment assistance for 
separating service members and their spouses. In 2011, the Veterans 
Opportunity to Work (VOW) to Hire Heroes Act of 2011 (P.L. 112-56) 
mandated TAP participation for all TSMs - including pre-separation 
counseling and completion of courses provided by the newly established 
interagency partnerships - to start no later than 90 days prior to an 
anticipated date of transition. DOL, DoD, VA, and SBA collaborated to 
prepare new curricula and expand training, education, and transition 
activities to include Career Readiness Standards, a set of common and 
specified activities for service members to achieve.
    The John S. McCain NDAA for Fiscal Year 2019 (P.L. 115-232) 
requires TAP classes to occur no later than 365 days prior to an 
anticipated date of separation or release from active duty or 24 months 
prior to retirement. These requirements allowed TAP to evolve from a 
one-size-fits-all program where service members had to transition to 
civilian life in a condensed timeframe to an individualized program 
tailored specifically to the needs of each service member under a more 
suitable timeline.
    VETS works with its interagency partners to provide program 
oversight. The NDAA for Fiscal Year 2024 (P.L. 118-31, Sec. 1805) 
codified DOL as a Co-Chair with DoD and VA on the Joint Executive 
Committee. This enhanced DOL's preexisting collaboration with DoD and 
VA, with VETS co-chairing the Transition Executive Committee, Senior 
Transition Steering Group, Transition Working Group, and six functional 
working groups. Interagency members including DOL, DoD, VA, ED, DHS, 
SBA, OPM, and the military services meet and coordinate on a regular 
basis to ensure that the partners are supporting and advancing TAP, as 
well as to reduce redundancy, better serve unique populations, and 
improve coordination of services across program areas.

                      DOL TAP Employment Workshops

    In Fiscal Year 2023, TSMs and military spouses attended VETS' TAP 
employment workshops in significant numbers. TAP employment workshops 
provided instruction to 242,984 participants.\5\ There are three core 
VETS TAP employment workshops. First, VETS is responsible for the 
delivery of the Employment Fundamentals of Career Transition (EFCT) 
Workshop, which is a mandatory, 1-day course for employment 
preparation.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \5\ Note that an individual service member may attend more than one 
workshop. References to the total number of TAP workshop participants 
do not track unique participants.

      One-Day EFCT Workshop: The EFCT lays the foundation for 
transitioning from military to civilian life, introducing the essential 
tools and resources needed to evaluate career options, gain information 
for civilian employment, and understand the fundamentals of the 
employment process. In Fiscal Year 2023, VETS provided EFCT workshops 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
to 148,560 participants.

    In addition, based on service members' individual needs, VETS 
offers two elective tracks to acquire additional skills through a 2-day 
workshop: (1) the DOL Employment Workshop (DOLEW), and (2) the Career 
and Credential Exploration (C2E) Workshop. TSMs must elect one 2-day 
track during their individual counseling; however, they are encouraged 
to attend any additional track(s) and attend the courses more than once 
(as their unit missions allow) to prepare them for their transition.

      Two-Day DOLEW: The DOLEW is intended for those pursuing 
the employment track and covers emerging best practices in career 
employment, including in-depth training to learn interview skills, 
build effective resumes, and use emerging technology to network and 
search for employment. In Fiscal Year 2023, VETS provided DOLEW 
workshops to 78,473 participants.

      Two-Day C2E Workshop: For those on the vocational track, 
VETS implemented an updated C2E workshop on January 1, 2024, which 
provides guidance and assistance in conducting several self-assessments 
to determine a career path to align with interests, aptitudes, and work 
values. Further, this update includes guidance on tailoring a resume 
for apprenticeships. Attendees will complete a comparison of technical 
training institutions. In Fiscal Year 2023, VETS provided C2E workshops 
to 15,951 participants.

    VETS workshops are highly rated by attendees. Fiscal Year 2023 
Transition Assistance Participant Assessment results indicated that 96 
percent would use what they learned in their own transition planning, 
and 96 percent reported that the EFCT enhanced their confidence in 
transition planning.

              Employment Navigator and Partnership Program

    ENPP began at 13 military installations worldwide on April 1, 2021. 
ENPP leverages the Secretary's authority (10 U.S.C. Sec.  1144) to 
assist TSMs and their spouses with identifying and connecting to 
employment and training opportunities. The pilot was designed in 
response to feedback from veterans who stated that, while their TAP 
classroom experience was educational, they desired a more personalized 
approach. ENPP provides one-on-one, tailored services for TSMs and 
their spouses. From April 1, 2021, to September 30, 2023, VETS 
successfully piloted ENPP as a proof of concept. VETS implemented the 
pilot in close coordination with the military services and initial 
partner organizations. Employment Navigators were able to provide 
value-added one-on-one career support services. VETS successfully 
incorporated partner organizations into the pilot and implemented a 
formal partner application process. Initial analysis of employment 
outcome data indicates a positive impact from ENPP engagement. Based on 
these factors, VETS established ENPP as a program on October 1, 2023. 
VETS is prepared to make ENPP part of the regular DOL TAP established 
under 10 U.S.C. Sec.  1144. As funding allows, and in coordination with 
the TAP interagency governance and military services, VETS will 
continue to extend ENPP to serve as many TSMs and their spouses as 
possible.
    Through our full-time contract Employment Navigator staff and our 
employment partners, ENPP clients receive assistance with their resumes 
and career direction, as well as referrals to vetted partner 
organizations and American Job Centers (AJCs), which provide additional 
personalized support. ENPP Partners are required to select a primary 
service from nine possible categories of services, which include: 
digital employment opportunity matching, training services, employment 
mentorship, hiring events, employment networking, Registered 
Apprenticeship opportunities, referrals to employment opportunities, 
placement services, and wrap-around services. A list of our current 
partners can be found on the VETS ENPP Partner Page,\6\ and 
organizations that are interested in partnership with us can submit an 
application.\7\ In Fiscal Year 2023, 5,747 TSMs and 383 military 
spouses received services through ENPP.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \6\ https://www.dol.gov/agencies/vets/programs/tap/employment-
navigator-partnership/enpp-partnerships
    \7\ https://www.dol.gov/sites/dolgov/files/VETS/files/tap/
DOLVETSENPPPotentialPartnerApplicationForm.pdf
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Also, at ENPP sites, the lead Employment Navigators serve as the 
initial points of contact for TSMs receiving a ``warm handover'', a 
person-to-person connection between the TSM and an AJC. No later than 
90 days prior to separating, TSMs will go through Capstone, a process 
by which the military service branch evaluates whether service members 
have met the Career Readiness Standards (CRS). To meet the employment 
track CRS for employment, a service member must have either a completed 
resume or confirmation of employment. If a service member fails to meet 
the CRS for employment, they are provided a warm handover, which 
connects them to designated services and follow-up resources as needed.
    During a warm handover, at ENPP sites, Employment Navigators 
connect TSMs to a designated AJC point-of-contact who verifies with DOL 
that they have received the contact information and reached out to the 
client to offer assistance. In addition to being connected with the 
State AJC where they reside, many service members receiving a warm 
handover also receive services from our Employment Navigators and 
partners. VETS believes that providing TSMs with additional support 
from Employment Navigators will enable more service members to meet the 
CRS and lead to a reduction in the number of TSMs who are required to 
receive a warm handover for employment.
    According to participant surveys, ENPP has been a great success. As 
of February 1, 2024, 97 percent of ENPP survey respondents reported 
positive feelings after meeting with their Employment Navigators and 
would recommend ENPP to a friend or colleague. Additionally, 97 percent 
felt ENPP partners met or exceeded their employment-related 
expectations. As one ENPP survey respondent stated, ``The value of the 
Employment Navigator is having a one-on-one conversation to go back 
over the plethora of information you received in TAP classes and give 
guidance and recommendations specific to your situation.''
    VETS is very proud of the progress that has been made through ENPP 
and looks forward to continuing and expanding this initiative. To 
better understand its success and effectiveness, VETS has initiated a 
number of evaluations of the program. First, in December 2021, VETS 
launched the TAP Employment Navigator System (TENS), a case management 
system created for ENPP to be used by Employment Navigators (who are 
contracted staff), ENPP partners, and VETS staff to capture data, 
develop reports, and manage ENPP processes. TENS includes an integrated 
client request meeting scheduler, program reporting, policy/guidance 
storage, and client record management.
    With DOL's TAP Evaluation and Employment Navigator (TEEN) Study, 
VETS built a new one-of-a-kind dataset to better understand the role of 
ENPP on employment outcomes for TSMs and their spouses. What's even 
more notable about this dataset is that we will be able to follow 
employment outcomes of TSMs longitudinally. This was a multi-year 
effort to combine wage and employment information from the Department 
of Health and Human Services-administered National Directory of New 
Hires (NDNH), Armed Forces' administrative data through the Veteran 
Data Exchange Initiative with DoD, and ENPP program data through TENS 
from VETS. This effort included data-sharing agreements with the 
aforementioned federal agencies, approval process with OMB, and 
upgrading IT systems required to receive, store, and analyze the merged 
data. VETS produced an initial NDNH-related analysis at the end of 
Fiscal Year 2023 and identified employment outcomes, including wages, 
to track in Fiscal Year 2024. VETS aims to establish a baseline year to 
fine-tune the measurement tools and ensure accuracy.
    Based on preliminary findings from early analyses in the TEEN 
Study, we see that TSMs who received ENPP services have notably better 
outcomes than those service members who did not receive those services. 
For example, preliminary findings indicate an increase of 10 percent 
(to $11,005) higher median quarterly wages earned for enlisted TSMs who 
participated in ENPP compared to their counterparts ($9,993) who did 
not participate. VETS will continue analyzing the data and will be able 
to provide more nuanced information as data sets increase and analysis 
matures.
    Additionally, VETS' ENPP Evaluation is underway to understand how 
Employment Navigators provide support to service members to find 
employment faster and obtain higher wages. The key components of this 
study are: 1) a rigorous implementation and outcomes evaluation; 2) an 
evaluability assessment on the feasibility of an impact evaluation; 3) 
a study to understand the customer experience through the eyes of 
service members and military spouses; and 4) collaboration with other 
DOL workforce navigator evaluations to synthesize findings on cross-
cutting topic areas, such as equity to access of services. The 
evaluation is expected to be completed in Fiscal Year 2027.

              Expanding Off-Base Transition Training Pilot

    On January 11, 2022, VETS announced the launch of a 5-year Off-Base 
Transition Training (OBTT) pilot program, in accordance with section 
4303 of the Johnny Isakson and David P. Roe, M.D. Veterans Health Care 
and Benefits Improvement Act of 2020 (P.L. 116-315), which was enacted 
on January 5, 2021. Section 4303, which amended section 301(a) of the 
Dignified Burial and Other Veterans' Benefits Improvement Act of 2012 
(P.L. 112-260), directed DOL to provide TAP to veterans and their 
spouses at locations other than active military installations for a 
period of 5 years to improve employment-related outcomes in areas with 
high veteran unemployment. The OBTT pilot launched in eight 
metropolitan areas across five states (California, Massachusetts, North 
Carolina, Pennsylvania, and Texas) and, by December 2023, VETS expanded 
the pilot to 26 metropolitan areas in 10 states (adding Colorado, 
Illinois, Nevada, New York, and Oregon). OBTT features ten 2-hour, 
instructor-led employment skills and workforce development workshops, 
provided in classrooms and virtually. In Fiscal Year 2023, 6,293 
veterans or their spouses were provided employment-related training 
through OBTT.

                               Conclusion

    As the lead federal agency on veteran employment, DOL VETS looks 
forward to working with this Subcommittee and our many partners and 
stakeholders to create opportunities to ensure that all veterans, 
service members, and their spouses, can have a good job and opportunity 
for advancement.
    Chairman Van Orden, Ranking Member Levin, and distinguished members 
of the Subcommittee, this concludes my statement. Thank you for the 
opportunity to be a part of this hearing, and I welcome your questions.
                                 ______
                                 

             Prepared Statement of Nadine Bullock-Pottinga

    Chairman Van Orden, Ranking Member Levin, and Members of the 
Subcommittee, thank you for the opportunity to speak today on this 
pending legislation. My name is Andrew Sandoe, and I am the CEO of Hire 
Heroes USA--the nation's leading veteran and military spouse employment 
nonprofit. As a former Marine helicopter pilot of 9 years, I have 
experienced firsthand the challenges of transitioning from military to 
civilian life and understand the support systems that are critical to 
veterans and military families.
    Many of the bills up for discussion today would greatly impact 
employment outcomes and economic opportunity for our Nation's 
transitioning service members, veterans, and military spouses. I'd like 
to focus my remarks on proposed improvements to the transition process, 
as I believe the period of separation from military service to civilian 
life to be most critical for a veteran's career success.
    First, let me briefly describe Hire Heroes USA and the essential 
work that we do. Hire Heroes USA was founded in 2005 and has secured 
employment for more than 93,000 clients. Hire Heroes USA offers 
comprehensive, one-on-one employment services in all 50 states to over 
20,000 individuals annually, at no cost to our clients.
    The size and diversity of our client population provide us with 
unique insights into ways that the Nation can better support veteran 
employment and economic opportunity. It is my pleasure to share some of 
these insights with the Subcommittee today.
    Hire Heroes USA strongly supports the draft legislation that 
includes comprehensive and sustainable reforms to the Transition 
Assistance Program (TAP). This bill would meaningfully improve the 
experiences of service members nearing separation or veterans who have 
recently separated. With approximately 200,000 service members 
transitioning out of the military annually, TAP and other related 
federal programs must be designed and implemented in ways that maximize 
their impact and effectiveness. We believe that various provisions of 
this legislation would address long-standing concerns about the 
structure and performance of TAP.
    Hire Heroes USA is especially supportive of the bill's proposal to 
codify and improve the Department of Labor's Employment Navigator and 
Partnership Program (ENPP). Initially a pilot program, ENPP began at 13 
military installations in April 2021 and has expanded to over 30 
locations.
    The program is intended to complement the standard TAP coursework 
by offering more individualized employment services, tailored to the 
unique needs of each transitioning service member or their spouse. 
Under the program, DOL staff work with employment partner 
organizations, including Hire Heroes USA, to assist clients with job 
placement, training, and various other career or wrap-around services.
    ENPP was originally established under DOL's authority to provide 
employment and training opportunities as part of TAP. However, this 
program has never been codified in statute, a step that we believe is 
critical for ensuring the long-term success of TAP. Beyond codifying 
ENPP, the bill language also makes important improvements to the 
program's administration of contracts with employment partners.
    To date, DOL has not provided any compensation to ENPP partners and 
instead has relied on voluntary participation, placing nearly all of 
the financial burden on VSOs. However, the success of ENPP strongly 
depends on the involvement of non-governmental partners. We deliver 
direct assistance to transitioning service members and military spouses 
while complying with all DOL regulations and requirements around data 
management and program evaluation. ENPP partners currently do this all 
without receiving any resources to support these expenses, an approach 
that challenges the long-term sustainability of this program.
    Hire Heroes USA alone has supported over 2,000 client referrals 
from the program since 2021. As ENPP continues to grow, especially if 
codified, it is essential that the partners taking on a significant 
volume of referrals receive the appropriate support to sustain their 
participation. This would take the form of competitively awarded 
contracts for the highest-impact and farthest-reaching employment 
partners. To be clear, we also support the continuation of voluntary 
ENPP partnerships, in addition to those organizations selected for 
contracts. The language should further clarify this to ensure small and 
local service providers can continue to participate voluntarily. 
Together, these proposed changes to ENPP would promote the long-term 
success of the program and ultimately benefit tens of thousands of 
service members every year.
    Beyond ENPP, Hire Heroes USA also supports the bill's provision 
that would establish a DOD pilot program for military spouses to 
receive one-on-one counseling services based on the TAP curriculum. 
While some spouse-specific transition resources exist, there is still a 
need for more comprehensive programming covering the full range of 
topics relevant to transitioning military families.
    As the bill's language ensures, counseling must be adequately 
tailored to the unique needs of each participating military spouse, 
including flexible scheduling arrangements. The creation of this pilot 
program would yield long-term success much in the same way that TAP, 
despite some of its shortcomings, has gradually improved civilian 
outcomes for our Nation's veterans.
    On behalf of Hire Heroes USA, I'd like to again thank the Chairman, 
Ranking Member, and Members of the Subcommittee for your ongoing 
commitment to the cause of veteran and military spouse employment. I 
welcome any questions you may have for me.
                                 ______
                                 

                   Prepared Statement of Gregory John

    Chairperson, honorable members of the committee,
    My name is Gregory John and I am the President of Infinity Flight, 
one of the largest flight training organization in the country based at 
Trenton-Mercer Airport in New Jersey. We collaborate with Mercer County 
College to provide veterans with an opportunity to become professional 
airline pilots, a lucrative, in-demand career path. Today, I stand 
before you to express my unwavering support for the proposed language 
in H.R. 7613 that would implement a lifetime cap of $100,000, adjusted 
for inflation, on veterans' entitlement use for flight training fees at 
public institutions of higher learning.
    The proposed cap is not only a financial safeguard, but a strategic 
move toward creating a more equitable, efficient, and responsible 
system for utilizing the educational benefits earned by veterans. By 
setting a clear limit, we are helping to ensure these benefits are used 
in a manner that maximizes veterans' success in the civilian workforce, 
while protecting the integrity of the GI Bill against exploitation.
    Further, implementing a lifetime cap encourages training programs 
to prioritize quality, safety, and effectiveness. In the Mercer County 
College program, we have seen firsthand how clear, defined boundaries 
foster an environment where every flight hour and every training 
opportunity is utilized to its fullest potential. This focus on quality 
over quantity of flight hours ensures that veterans receive the best 
possible education and training, preparing them for successful careers 
in aviation.
    Additionally, the cap addresses a critical issue that has plagued 
the system for too long: the misuse of VA funds through what has been 
termed the ``blank-check loophole,'' which has allowed bad-actor 
institutions to inflate the cost of flight training, charging the VA 
far beyond the amount necessary for a quality education. By setting a 
flight fee cap, Congress will put an end to this exploitation, ensuring 
VA funds are used responsibly and more veterans have access to flight-
training opportunities without the risk of unnecessary financial waste.
    In my opinion, establishing the inflation-adjusted cap at $100,000 
is appropriate based on the actual cost of obtaining a comprehensive 
flight education. Furthermore, applying the cap exclusively to programs 
offered by public institutions of higher learning encourages veterans 
to pursue their education at institutions already benefitting from an 
array of existing governance safeguards, ensuring financial protections 
for both the veteran and the GI Bill, as well as the delivery of a 
high-quality education.
    In conclusion, I urge Congress to adopt this language into law. It 
represents a balanced, thoughtful approach to supporting our veterans' 
educational aspirations, while safeguarding the resources dedicated to 
their success. Let us honor their service by ensuring that their path 
to a new career in aviation is both secure and fruitful.
    Thank you for considering my testimony on this critical matter. I 
am confident that, together, we can make a positive change that 
benefits our veterans, the aviation industry, and the Nation as a 
whole.
                                 ______
                                 

               Prepared Statement of Matthew Schwartzman

    The Reserve Officers Association of the United States, now doing 
business as the Reserve Organization of America, is a military service 
organization incorporated under Internal Revenue Service Code section 
501(c)(19), and comprising all ranks of servicemembers, veterans, and 
family members of our Nation's eight uniformed services separated under 
honorable conditions. ROA is the only national military service 
organization that solely and exclusively supports the reserve 
components.
    ROA was founded in 1922 by General of the Armies John ``Black 
Jack'' Pershing, during the drastic reductions of the Army after World 
War I. It was formed to support a strong national defense and focused 
on the establishment of a corps of reserve officers who would be the 
heart of a military expansion in the event of war. Under ROA's 1950 
congressional charter, our purpose is unchanged: To promote the 
development and execution of policies that will provide adequate 
national defense. We do so by developing and offering expertise on the 
use and resourcing of America's reserve components.

Executive Director:

        Maj. Gen. Jeffrey E. Phillips, U.S. Army (Ret.)
                                       202-646-7701

Director, Legislation and Military Policy:

        Matthew L. Schwartzman
                                       202-646-7713

=======================================================================

    DISCLOSURE OF FEDERAL GRANTS OR CONTRACTS

    The Reserve Officers Association of the United States, now doing 
business as the Reserve Organization of America, has not received any 
grants, contracts, or subcontracts from the Federal Government in the 
past 3 years.

CURRICULUM VITAE

    Matthew Schwartzman serves as the legislation and military policy 
director for the Reserve Organization of America. Responsible for the 
development, management, and execution of ROA's government relations 
program and public policy portfolio, Matthew has more than 5 years of 
experience in government and legislative affairs, policy analysis, and 
membership services.
    Matthew is also a co-chair for The Military Coalition's Guard and 
Reserve Committee and Taxes and Social Security Committee, 
representing, on select issues, a consortium of more than 30 military 
and veterans service organizations with approximately 5.5 million 
members collectively.

INTRODUCTION

    Chairman Van Orden, Ranking Member Levin, and distinguished members 
of the House Veterans Affairs Subcommittee on Economic Opportunity, on 
behalf of the Reserve Organization of America (ROA), the only national 
military organization that solely and exclusively supports the Reserve 
and National Guard, thank you for the opportunity to testify on pending 
legislation and ways to improve military to civilian transitions for 
citizen-warriors and their families.
    Unlike their active duty counterparts, members of the Reserve and 
National Guard (also referred to as the reserve components) and their 
families must frequently transition between their military and civilian 
lives throughout their time in service.
    For reserve component service members, spouses, and families, this 
presents unique challenges to overcome and additional responsibilities 
to shoulder.
    Unfortunately, current laws, policies, and programs intensify these 
challenges and make such responsibilities more difficult to manage.
    Examples of this include a TRICARE system that forces reserve 
component service members and retirees to pay substantially more for 
healthcare, inequities in accessing service-earned benefits such as 
disability compensation from the Department of Veterans Affairs (VA), 
and a Transition Assistance Program (TAP) that fails to meet the needs 
of reserve affiliated participants.
    While the reserve components are expected to provide an equal 
capability to the active components, they are often not treated as 
such. This is true within the armed forces and the uniformed services.
    The days of seeing Reserve and National Guard service members as 
``weekend warriors'' or ``draft dodgers'' must be put behind us.
    They are citizen-warriors. Constituting 46.9 percent of the Total 
Force, they are now more integral to national security than ever 
before.
    ROA is prepared to provide its technical assistance and expertise 
on most of the proposed bills subject to this hearing.
    However, most, if not all, of this written statement focuses on 
measures that uniquely relate to the transition needs of reserve 
component service members and their families, are reinforced by an ROA 
resolution, or are aligned with our congressional charter, signed by 
President S. Harry S. Truman on June 30, 1950, which reads:``. . . to 
support and assist in the development and execution of a military 
policy for which the United States shall provide adequate National 
Defense.''

H.R. 6656, STUCK ON HOLD ACT

    This bill, introduced by Reps. Ken Calvert (CA-41) and Henry 
Cuellar (TX-28), directs the Secretary of Veterans Affairs and the 
Commissioner of Social Security to implement automated systems with 
callback functionality for each customer service telephone line of the 
VA and the Social Security Administration (SSA).
    Such a functionality would inform any caller of the anticipated 
wait time and offer a callback to those with an anticipated wait time 
of more than 15 minutes.
    Quality customer service is vital to meeting the customer's 
need(s), which in turn is vital to institutional integrity.
    I can personally attest that the only thing worse than being on 
hold waiting for a customer service representative is the call being 
abruptly and unexpectedly ended without ever speaking to the 
representative.
    In fact, I remember one time joking with my parents that ``I 
understand what it means to be an adult, now that I've been on hold 
with the IRS [Internal Revenue Service].''
    Ironically, this legislation seeks to expand the callback feature 
now scaled nearly enterprise wide by the IRS to the VA and SSA.
    The IRS first began developing its Customer Callback System (CCB) 
in Fiscal Year (FY) 2019 and has since expanded it to more than 100 
telephone services, representing 95 percent of callers seeking live 
assistance deemed viable for a callback.\1\
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \1\ In Fiscal Year 2019, the IRS started its CCB pilot program on 
one telephone service. This expanded in Fiscal Year 2020 to five, in 
Fiscal Year 2021 to 16, in Fiscal Year 2022 to 31, and in Fiscal Year 
2023 to 43, with plans to increase to 116 services by Aug. 2023.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    When it comes to reducing the amount of time taxpayers spend 
waiting on hold, this feature has proven highly effective. In Fiscal 
Year 2022, for example, the IRS' CCB saved taxpayers an estimated 3.6 
million hours of hold time (with an accepted callback saving an average 
of 34 minutes of hold time per caller).
    ROA supports the desired end-state of this proposal: improvements 
in customer service and experience.
    However, we recommend first providing the VA and SSA with the 
opportunity to ``pilot'' their own CCBs \2\ and report to the House and 
Senate Committees on Veterans Affairs on the successes and failures of 
the pilot (prior to scaling enterprise wide).
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \2\ The VA, for example, has existing software (Caller Elected 
Callback) and technology (Avaya Callback Assist) that can allow callers 
waiting on hold to elect to receive a callback from the enterprise 
without losing their spot in queue.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Further, ROA believes the metrics used to measure mission success 
and failure should go beyond the amount of time on hold saved and 
include:

          The number of callers that elected to receive a 
        callback.

          The number and percentage of callers that received a 
        callback.

          The number and percentage of callers that answered 
        the callback.

          The number and percentage of callers that had their 
        customer service need(s) met on the first callback.

          The overall time it took for callers that requested a 
        callback to have their customer service need(s) met.

          The overall time it took for callers eligible for a 
        callback but stayed on hold to have their customer service 
        need(s) met.

          Any increase(s) in fraudulent or predatory 
        behavior(s) from scammers claiming to be affiliated with the 
        government.

          Additional matters deemed relevant.

    ROA asks for this because of lessons learned from the IRS' efforts 
to bring its CCB to scale.
    According to an analysis of call volumes of the IRS' telephone 
system for Fiscal Year 2022 performed by the Treasury Inspector General 
for Tax Administration, of the 26 million calls considered for a 
callback:

          15 million were ineligible because of business rules 
        applied.\3\
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \3\ To receive a callback from the IRS' CCB: (1) the customer's 
wait time must be between 15 and 60 minutes, (2) the call must be on a 
telephone line with callback capacity, (3) the callback queue must be 
at an acceptable level to minimize reconnect time, (4) a virtual port 
is needed to route calls via a contracted telephone service provider, 
(5) the call must arrive between 6:30 a.m. and 7 p.m. (CST), and (6) 
the customer must not have another callback scheduled (https://
www.tigta.gov/sites/default/files/reports/2023-07/202310046fr.pdf).

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
          11 million callbacks were made.

          5 million callbacks were not accepted.

    While the Stuck on Hold Act protects against the business rule that 
resulted in a large share of callers' ineligibility for a callback 
(wait time exceeding more than 60 minutes), ROA urges the members and 
staff of this Subcommittee to further ensure that any business rule 
applied by the VA or SSA does not undermine the proposal's intent.
    ROA also believes that an important part of this conversation ought 
to include ensuring and validating safeguards against fraudulent 
behaviors from scammers that claim to be affiliated with the 
government.\4\
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \4\  https://news.va.gov/92256/consumer-fraud-alert-tips-for-
avoiding-va-home-loan-scams/
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Under no circumstance should the time between the callback request 
and the callback itself present increased opportunities for our 
Nation's veterans or their spouses and caregivers to succumb to such 
predatory practices, which are becoming increasingly sophisticated.
    If the ``pilot'' proves effective in improving customer service and 
fulfillment and ensures the security and privacy of sensitive 
information, then ROA will endorse scaling the CCB enterprise wide at 
the VA.

H.R. 7323, TO AMEND TITLE 38, UNITED STATES CODE, TO DIRECT THE 
SECRETARY OF VETERANS AFFAIRS TO DISAPPROVE COURSES OF EDUCATION 
OFFERED BY A PUBLIC INSTITUTION OF HIGHER LEARNING THAT DOES NOT CHARGE 
THE IN-STATE TUITION RATE TO A VETERAN USING CERTAIN EDUCATIONAL 
ASSISTANCE UNDER TITLE 10 OF SUCH CODE

    This bill, introduced by Rep. Van Orden (WI-03) and Rep. Morgan 
McGarvey (KY-03) directs the VA to disapprove courses offered by a 
public institution of higher learning not priced at the in-state 
tuition rate to Montgomery GI Bill Selected Reserve (MGIB-SR) 
enrollees, regardless of their state of residence.
    The MGIB-SR is the first GI Bill to provide educational and 
training assistance to eligible members of the Selected Reserve.
    As of Fiscal Year 2023, the MGIB-SR program serves 39,849 
enrollees, representing approximately 5 percent of the total GI Bill 
population.\5\
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \5\ https://www.benefits.va.gov/REPORTS/abr/docs/2023-education.pdf
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Title 38, U.S.C., Sec. 3679(c) requires the VA to disapprove 
programs of education for payments of benefits under the Post-9/11 GI 
Bill, Montgomery GI Bill-Active Duty (MGIB-AD), and Survivors' and 
Dependents' Educational Assistance (DEA) program if students are not 
charged in-state tuition, regardless of their state of residence.
    This protection was most recently extended in 2021 to DEA with the 
signing of Public Law No: 117-68, the Colonel John M. McHugh Tuition 
Fairness for Survivors Act.
    However, it has not yet been extended to MGIB-SR.
    The cost of attending public institutions of higher learning is 
continuing to increase for most students. So too is the gap between in-
state and out-of-state tuition rates.\6\
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \6\  https://www.forbes.com/advisor/education/student-resources/in-
state-vs-out-of-state-tuition/
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Requiring these institutions to charge in-state tuition under MGIB-
SR, regardless of the student's state of residence, is essential to 
ensuring the solvency and sustainability of the VA's educational 
benefits program and the financial readiness of reserve component 
enrollees.
    H.R. 7323, the MGIB-SR Tuition Fairness Act, simply extends this 
existing protection to citizen-warriors enrolled in MGIB-SR.
    ROA thanks you, Mr. Chairman, and Rep. McGarvey for sponsoring this 
bill and urges Congress to codify it in public law no later than the 
conclusion of the 118th Congress.
    As an aside, this is not the only bill pending before Congress that 
addresses a federal loophole excluding citizen-warriors from receiving 
educational benefits.
    Title 20, U.S.C., Sec.1091(c) excludes Reserve and National Guard 
service members on active duty orders of 30 days or less from ``prompt 
readmission'' into their institution of higher learning (IHL) under 34 
CFR 66.18(a)(2).
    This means that if a reserve component member of the armed forces 
is called to serve on active duty orders of 30 days or less, the member 
may be forced to disenroll from their educational institution prior to 
readmission. They must also reapply to their IHL through the standard 
readmission process, prohibiting eligibility for the benefits of prompt 
readmission, which include (but are not limited to):

          Tuition at the same price as the semester they first 
        enrolled in.

          Maintaining the same curriculum or degree program at 
        the time of forced disenrollment.

          Preserving the same academic program at the beginning 
        of the next semester.

    While 21 States have closed this loophole, ROA believes this must 
be solved federally.
    H.R. 4244/S. 2076, the Servicemember Enrollment and Readmission for 
Valuable Education Act, simply amends Title 20 U.S.C. 1091c(a) to allow 
all reserve component members of the armed forces called on active duty 
for any amount of time to receive ``prompt readmission' under 34 CFR 
66.18(a)(2).
    ROA thanks Reps. Matt Cartwright (PA-08) and Mike Ezell (MS-04) and 
Sens. Cindy Hyde-Smith (MS) and Maggie Hassan (NH) for sponsoring these 
bills and urges the members of the Subcommittee to co-sponsor H.R. 
4244.

H.R. XXXX, TO AMEND TITLE 38, UNITED STATES CODE, TO PROVIDE FOR A 
LIMITATION ON THE AMOUNT OF ENTITLEMENT OF EDUCATIONAL ASSISTANCE 
PAYABLE FOR FLIGHT TRAINING UNDER THE POST-9/11 EDUCATIONAL ASSISTANCE 
PROGRAM OF THE DEPARTMENT OF VETERANS AFFAIRS

    This draft bill places a $100,000 cap, subject to an annual 
percentage increase, on the total assistance payable for flight 
training under the Post 9/11 GI Bill to enrollees of public IHL's.
    ROA does not oppose the draft bill.
    However, prior to taking an official position, ROA requests 
additional information on:

          The total amount paid, every FY over the last 10 FYs, 
        in educational assistance for flight training under the Post 9/
        11 GI Bill.

          The average amount paid, every FY over the last 10 
        FYs, in educational assistance for flight training per enrollee 
        under the Post 9/11 GI Bill.

          The number and percentage of enrollees who, following 
        the completion of their flight training under the Post 9/11 GI 
        Bill, were employed in a paid occupation related to their 
        flight training program (every FY over the last 10 FYs).

          The number and percentage of enrollees who, following 
        the competition of their flight training, were never employed 
        in a paid occupation related to their flight training under the 
        Post 9/11 GI Bill program (every FY over the last 10 FYs).

          The number and percentage of enrollees who used their 
        flight training under the Post 9/11 GI Bill to become a: 
        student pilot; recreational pilot; sport pilot; private pilot; 
        commercial pilot; flight instructor; airline transport pilot; 
        ground school instructor (every FY over the last 10 FYs).

    ROA requests this information as part of a larger effort to ensure 
there is no waste, fraud, and abuse within the educational programs 
offered by the VA.
    ROA also believes that legislation requiring similar reporting 
requirements on all VA educational programs would be worthwhile of 
consideration and support.

H.R.XXXX, TO AMEND TITLE 38, UNITED STATES CODE, TO PROVIDE FOR THE 
RESTORATION OF ENTITLEMENT OF INDIVIDUALS ENTITLED TO EDUCATIONAL 
ASSISTANCE UNDER THE LAWS ADMINISTERED BY THE SECRETARY OF VETERANS 
AFFAIRS WHO USE SUCH ENTITLEMENT TO PURSUE A COURSE OR PROGRAM OF 
EDUCATION AT AN EDUCATIONAL INSTITUTION FOUND TO HAVE VIOLATED CERTAIN 
PROHIBITIONS ON ADVERTISING, SALES, AND ENROLLMENT PRACTICES

    The draft bill allows the VA Under Secretary for Benefits to 
restore and recapture educational assistance payments and entitlements 
if an educational institution is guilty of violating Title 38, U.S.C., 
Sec. 3696.
    ROA supports the draft bill as written and sees much value to its 
desired end-state.
    However, ROA also seeks further information on if or how this draft 
bill conflicts with the future advancement of H.R. 1767, the Student 
Veteran Benefit Restoration Act, which passed the House Veterans 
Affairs Committee on July 26, 2023.

H.R.XXXX, TO AMEND TITLES 10 AND 38, UNITED STATES CODE, TO MAKE 
    IMPROVEMENTS TO CERTAIN PROGRAMS FOR A MEMBER NEARING SEPARATION, 
    OR FOR A VETERAN WHO RECENTLY SEPARATED, FROM THE ARMED FORCES, AND 
    FOR OTHER PURPOSES

    TAP has a significant role in ensuring service members and their 
families are equipped to manage the transition(s) between military and 
civilian life.
    Unlike their active duty counterparts, reserve component members 
and their families must frequently transition between their military 
and civilian lives prior to separating from service.
    Also, some reserve component retirees, referred to as ``gray area'' 
retirees, are required to wait many years before they begin receiving 
their retirement benefits, including retirement pay and healthcare 
under TRICARE Prime, TRICARE Standard, TRICARE for Life, and the U.S. 
Family Health Plan.\7\
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \7\ https://themilitarywallet.com/gray-area-retirement-benefits/

    > Read more about affordable ``gray area'' retiree healthcare on 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
page 21.

    This presents unique challenges for reserve component members and 
their families to overcome and additional responsibilities to shoulder.
    Despite this, TAP is not uniquely structured to meet the transition 
needs of citizen-warriors and their families.
    This fact was recently validated by a RAND report required by 
Senate Report 114-255, which directed the Department of Defense (DoD) 
to research the transition experiences of Reserve and National Guard 
service members and make recommendations to the Senate Committee on 
Armed Services on how to better meet their transition needs or, 
alternatively, suggest a program specifically designed for the reserve 
components (which it did).
    ROA provides the following excerpts from the report for 
Subcommittee consideration, which capture numerous challenges reserve 
component members and their families face throughout their many 
transitions between military and civilian life:

           ``Many reserve component members feel that, in its 
        current form, TAP does not adequately address reserve component 
        needs.'' (page vii)

           ``. . . research has demonstrated that some reserve 
        component members experience difficult transitions back to 
        civilian life after prolonged active military service of 180 
        consecutive days or more.'' (page 1)

           ``Unfortunately, for many reserve component members 
        heading back to college, their schools do not provide specific 
        guidance or programming to address their particular needs.'' 
        (page 14)

           ``Research shows that reserve component members 
        desire more time than they received to readjust to their 
        civilian lives.'' (page 15)

           ``. . . service providers noted that reserve 
        component members need assistance in better understanding the 
        details of the GI Bill.'' (page 17)

           ``Service providers noted that TAP course content 
        could be better suited to address reserve component members' 
        needs.'' (page 19)

           ``. . . the needs of reserve component do not end 
        once they have fully transitioned from the military to civilian 
        world.'' (page 21)

           ``The retiring reserve component subpopulation is 
        more dispersed and less connected to their represented 
        services, especially for those members for whom there is a gap 
        in active service between meeting their 20-year service 
        requirement and reaching retirement age.'' (page 23) \8\
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \8\ www.roa.org/resource/resmgr/legislation/
rand_rc_tap_improvements.pdf

    Also validated by the RAND report was TAP's ``one-size two-
components'' construct, which places reserve component members in a 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
position where:

          They may not qualify for TAP and must partake in an 
        unorganized, non-standardized out-processing.

          They are required to participate in TAP many times 
        with diminishing returns.

          Commanders question their readiness.

          The information received through TAP is not tailored 
        to their needs.

          The location and timing of TAP is inconvenient at 
        best and obstructive at worst.

    ROA believes this must be solved--and it must be solved quickly. 
While ROA believes this draft bill should be the legislative vehicle 
for the 118th Congress to address these issues, ROA does not support 
the draft bill in its current form.
    Below is an analysis of many of the draft bill's sections with 
ROA's recommendations to strengthen its prospects as it relates to 
Reserve and National Guard service members and their families:

SEC. 1(b) PROVISION OF PRESEPARATION COUNSELING: THIRD PARTY 
COUNSELORS; IN-PERSON TO THE EXTENT PRACTICABLE.

        Preseparation counseling is vital to the transition and 
        separation process. Not only must the topics covered relate to 
        the needs of the service member and their family, but the 
        counselor(s) must also be equipped to understand those needs. 
        This is also true for TAP course instructors.\9\
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \9\ Multiple ``non-TAP service providers'' recommended to RAND that 
``TAP instructors be ex-military members because they have firsthand 
experience in transitioning from the military to civilian life and 
personally understand the process.'' Further, it was suggested that 
``effective'' TAP instructors have ``complementary employment 
experience outside the military'' and ``would be individuals who have 
successfully made the transition between from the military to the 
civilian world.'' (page 20)

        SEC. 1(b) as written outsources the entire preseparation 
        counseling process to a single third-party entity. Further, it 
        does so without offering any qualifications for the entity or 
        metrics to analyze the entity's capability and performance.
        While ROA is not opposed to the idea of preseparation 
        counseling being staffed and executed by a third-party entity, 
        ROA believes this should first be ``piloted'' at installations 
        and locations deemed to have the most significant presepration 
        counseling inadequacies.
        From there, ROA believes the successes and failures of the 
        pilot should be studied and reported to the House and Senate 
        Committees on Veterans Affairs and Armed Services prior to 
        scaling or standardizing the correct approach.
        Such a study, ROA believes, must incorporate feedback from 
        reserve component members and their spouses as part of a focus 
        group, like the RAND report.

SEC. 1(c) WAIVER FOR CERTAIN MEMBERS OF THE RESERVE COMPONENTS.

        SEC. 1(c) as written allows reserve component service members 
        to waive their preseparation counseling requirement(s) if they 
        received such counseling during the period of 3 years preceding 
        the date of the waiver request.
        ROA appreciates the consideration this grants to those reserve 
        component members required to participate in TAP at an 
        inconvenient time and location and for a non-useful purpose.
        However, ROA recommends amending SEC. 1(c) to require reserve 
        component service members seeking the waiver (and their 
        spouses) be properly educated and informed on any changes to 
        TAP's elements (since last receiving presepartion counseling) 
        prior to following through on the request.
        Further, ROA urges consideration of not allowing the waiver in 
        the case of an anticipated retirement, unanticipated retirement 
        or separation, or a retirement or separation for disability.
        One of the reasons that Reserve and National Guard service 
        members report diminishing returns on TAP is because its 
        curriculum and processes are not catered to their needs at the 
        time they exist.
        A citizen-warrior going through TAP while coming off an 
        intensive deployment, for example, is likely not ``looking'' 
        for the same thing(s) as a citizen-warrior seeking retirement. 
        This is why consideration must be granted to the timing of the 
        waiver request in relation to the circumstances triggering the 
        member's eligibility for TAP.
        That said, what remains unaddressed by this proposal is a means 
        to ensuring adequate access to TAP.
        Currently limiting access severely is Title 10, U.S.C., 
        Sec.(a)(4)(a), which requires service members to spend ``180 
        continuous days'' on active duty to qualify for TAP.
        Further limiting this is Sec.(a)(4)(c)(i) which bars inactive 
        duty for training (IDT, also referred to as a ``drill 
        weekend'') and active duty for training (ADT) as qualifying 
        duty days.
        ROA recently spoke with a retired Air Force Master Sergeant who 
        described in detail their separation and retirement experience 
        in the absence of TAP:

        ``At the beginning of my out processing, I was given a bunch of 
        literature and told to ask questions if confused. If done 
        right, retirement is something you do only once. So, going in, 
        I didn't know exactly what questions to ask. Frankly, I only 
        really learned those questions when going through the motions. 
        I've been out for a little over a year now and I'm still 
        learning. It would have been nice to sit down in an auditorium 
        or seminar just to make sure I was doing everything I had to do 
        and to learn more about my benefits.''

        To ensure adequate access to preseparation counseling and 
        instruction, ROA urges Subcommittee support for amending 
        existing law to allow reserve component members that serve 180 
        cumulative days of active service (which includes IDT and ADT) 
        to participate in TAP.
        ROA submits its draft Delivering Reservist Integration and 
        Veterans Education (DRIVE) Act as an attachment to this 
        statement, which includes suggested legislative language (SEC. 
        3) for this action.

SEC.1(e) ELECTIVE INCLUSION OF THE SPOUSE OF A MEMBER.

    SEC. 1(e) as written enables further integration of military 
spouses in the TAP process.

    ROA supports.

        > Read more about the importance of integrating military 
        spouses into their service spouses' TAP on page 13.

SEC.1(h) PRESEPARATION BY A VETERANS SERVICE ORGANIZATION.

        SEC. 1(h) as written allows Veterans Service Organizations 
        (VSOs) recognized under Title 38, U.S.C., Sec. 5902, to provide 
        a ``standardized'' presentation that promotes the benefits 
        available to veterans under laws administered by the Secretary 
        of Veterans Affairs and provides information on how VSOs can 
        assist service members in filing a claim.
        ROA supports this provision and thanks those VSOs that provide 
        claims assistance to our Nation's veterans and their families.
        However, ROA seeks clarity on whether the word ``standardized'' 
        limits these VSOs to delivering a singular version of the 
        presentation regardless of the member's service component.
        If this is the case, ROA recommends amending SEC. 1(h) to allow 
        recognized VSOs to provide a standardized version of the 
        presentation by the service member's component.
        The reason for this is simple: reserve component members and 
        their families face systemic obstacles to accessing the VA and 
        having their claims approved.
        This fact was validated by an Oct. 30, 2023, report from the 
        U.S. Government Accountability Office (GAO) which found the VA 
        approved 11 to 20 percent fewer initial disability compensation 
        claims from Reserve and National Guard service members than 
        those in the active components.\10\
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \10\ https://www.gao.gov/assets/d24105400.pdf
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
        As an aside, ROA believes systemic problems require systemic 
        solutions.
        While the presentation provided for by SEC.1(h) would better 
        educate reserve component members and their families on VA 
        benefits and the claims process, ROA believes more can be done 
        to affect the ``core'' of the problem.
        To that end, ROA urges the establishment of an Interagency Task 
        Force on Reserve Component Benefits and Resources through 
        legislation.
        ROA envisions the Task Force, on a biennial basis, reviewing 
        relevant statutes, policies, regulations, programs, trainings, 
        and services to provide recommendations for ensuring uniformed 
        services reserve component members and their families have 
        adequate access to benefits available under the laws 
        administered by the VA.
        ROA's DRIVE Act includes suggested legislative language (SEC. 
        2) for this action.

SEC.1(k) PROHIBITION OF PROVISION OF DD FORM 214 FOR CERTAIN MEMBERS 
WHO DO NOT COMPLETE PRESEPARATION COUNSELING.

    ROA wishes to gain a better understanding of the intent of this 
provision, as it remains unclear.
    However, on its facade, ROA strongly opposes it.
    This provision, if implemented, would unreasonably restrict access 
to necessary documentation and have unintended consequences, such as 
delaying a reserve component service members return to their civilian 
career.
    Further exacerbating this issue is the fact that VA and other 
federal, state, and local government agencies normally require veterans 
to provide a copy of the DD 214 form to qualify for veteran benefits.
    And despite the recent announcement of a new DD Form 214-1 for 
reserve component members when they retire or separate from service, 
that form is not expected until at least next year (it should be 
available now).

    SEC.1(m) PILOT PROGRAM FOR MILITARY SPOUSES.

    SEC. 1(m), as interpreted by ROA (although it is unclear), 
establishes a pilot program for military spouses to receive one-on-one 
counseling on matters tailored to the spouse, with at least 1 hour of 
counseling covering the benefits and assistance available to military 
families and veterans.
    ROA understands that military spouses have unique needs that must 
be met throughout the transition process.
    However, ROA and the National Military Family Association (NMFA) 
believe military spouses (and by extension, military families) would be 
better served if they were further integrated into their service 
spouse's TAP experience, as opposed to having their own separate 
counseling and curriculum.
    SEC. 1(e) of the draft bill as written is a good step in the right 
direction toward this end.
    That said, consideration of this provision speaks to the 
congressional recognition (and necessity) of ensuring TAP is as 
narrowly tailored as possible to the needs of its participants.
    That is why ROA and NMFA also support:

    1) The establishment of a reserve component curriculum track within 
TAP.

    ROA and NMFA envision the curriculum track being structured around 
the unique battle rhythm of reserve service and how it impacts the 
member, spouse, and family.\11\
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \11\ Unlike their active duty counterparts, for example, Reserve 
and National Guard service members and their families do not typically 
move every few years for a permanent change of station. Rather, they 
must prepare for yearly mandatory minimum service requirements (such as 
IDT and ADT) and deployments (which have increased significantly in 
length and frequency in the Post 9/11 era and often come as a 
surprise). What makes this preparation even more challenging is the 
changes in benefits that occur depending on the length of the order(s).
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    This includes consideration of curriculum elements being accessible 
at the member and spouse's election and administered virtually.
    More specifically, the curriculum would administer and provide 
resources, services, counseling, and assistance for reserve component 
members and their spouses:

          Throughout each phase of the deployment cycle (as a 
        complimentary asset to DoD's Yellow Ribbon Reintegration 
        Program).

          Prior to and upon separation or retirement.

          Throughout retirement, including for ``gray area'' 
        retirees.

    ROA's DRIVE Act, endorsed by NMFA, includes suggested legislative 
language (SEC. 5) for this action.

    2) The addition of reserve component-focused requirements to the 
presepration counseling ``checklist'' (DD Form 2468) and process.

    SEC. 4 of ROA's DRIVE Act establishes additional matters to be 
included on the DD Form 2468 and covered by TAP presepration counselors 
for reserve component members and their spouses, including:

          An explanation of the circumstances under which the 
        member may be subject to a retired recall to active duty.

          Information on financial planning assistance, 
        including consumer protections afforded under the 
        Servicemembers Civil Relief Act and Military Lending Act.

          Information, discussion, and counsel on pathways to 
        obtain and properly use military service records for the 
        purpose of accessing service earned benefits.

          Information, discussion, and counsel on pathways to 
        report and document health conditions and duty status, during 
        time in service and following separation from service, for the 
        purpose of accessing service earned benefits.

          Information and discussion on the Retirement Points 
        Accounting System, including verifying retirement point 
        calculations and retirement benefits to which the member may be 
        entitled to receive.

    To be clear: ROA and NMFA are not ``married'' to the legislative 
language proposed by these sections of the DRIVE Act.
    We are, however, ``married'' to the core competency it establishes: 
a TAP tailored to the unique needs of reserve component service members 
and their spouses and families.
    As such, ROA and NMFA urge your support for amending the draft bill 
to include legislative language that:

          Establishes additional matters to be covered by TAP 
        presepration counselors focused on the unique battle rhythm of 
        reserve service (ROA's DRIVE Act SEC. 4).

          Establishes a reserve component curriculum track 
        within TAP (ROA's DRIVE Act SEC. 5).

H.R. 6225, EXPANDING HOME LOANS FOR GUARD AND RESERVISTS ACT

    This bill, which passed the House last Congress, expands 
eligibility to the VA home loan program for Reserve and National Guard 
service members who spend 30 or more consecutive days on ADT.
    ROA thanks Reps. Jen Kiggans (VA-02) and Pat Ryan (NY-19) for 
sponsoring this bill and urges the Subcommittee to support it.
    Public Law No. 116-135, the Johnny Isakson and David P. Roe, M.D. 
Veterans Health Care and Benefits Improvement Act, expanded VA Home 
Loan eligibility to National Guard service members who perform ``full-
time'' duty for at least 90 days, of which 30 are consecutive.\12\
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \12\  https://www.Congress.gov/116/plaws/publ315/PLAW-
116publ315.pdf
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    However, affordable housing is now a serious national problem.
    And like most Americans, Reserve and National Guard service members 
and their families are facing significant challenges in finding 
affordable housing.

        Unaffordable housing: fast facts

          As of 2022, median home prices and rents in America 
        hit all-time highs.\13\
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \13\  https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/may/10/us-housing-
market-prices-increasing

          Data shows a 22 percent annual decline in the number 
        of mortgages originated to first-time homebuyers in 2022, 
        including a year-over-year drop in the fourth quarter (of 2022) 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
        of nearly 40 percent.

          Monthly payments on the U.S. median-priced home, 
        including taxes and insurance, increased from $2,200 in Jan. 
        2022 to $3,100 in Oct. 2022 after the annual interest rate on 
        30-year fixed rate mortgages increased from 3.4 percent to 6.9 
        percent (resulting in millions of renter households being 
        priced out of homeownership).\14\
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \14\ https://www.jchs.harvard.edu/sites/default/files/reports/
files/Harvard_JCHS_The_State_of_the_Nations_Housing_2023.pdf

    Like drill weekends, time spent on ADT is no joke.
    ADT's main purpose is to instill and ensure the skills most likely 
required to support military operations or future mobilizations within 
the first 30 days of deployment.\15\
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \15\ https://www.dami.army.pentagon.mil/g2Docs/Foundry/r350_1.pdf
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    ROA has long advocated that every day in uniform, including IDT and 
ADT, should count toward eligibility for many benefits, including the 
Post 9/11 GI Bill and TAP.
    This call to action has intensified in recent times on pivotal 
programs designed to maintain the integrity of the All-Volunteer Force.
    It has also intensified as the responsibilities shouldered by the 
Reserve and National Guard have increased in scale and significance in 
relation to national security and the cost of reserve service has 
increased, especially for junior enlisted service members.\16\
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    \16\ In 2017, Public Law No: 115-97, the Tax Cuts and Jobs Act, 
made it impossible for drilling reservists and guardsmen driving up to 
100 miles to their drilling location to deduct mileage and other travel 
expenses when they file their annual tax returns.
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    Increased access to the VA home loan program will help sustain 
financial readiness and enable reserve component members and their 
families to have a solvent pathway toward home ownership, which ROA 
believes will help facilitate more favorable recruiting and retention 
conditions.

H.R.XXXX, TO AMEND TITLE 38, UNITED STATES CODE, TO AUTHORIZE THE USE 
OF DEPARTMENT OF VETERANS AFFAIRS WORK-STUDY ALLOWANCE TO CARRY OUT 
CASEWORK, POLICY MAKING, AND OVERSIGHT RELATED TO THE ACTIVITIES OF THE 
DEPARTMENT AT CERTAIN CONGRESSIONAL OFFICES.

    This draft bill expands the Work-Study Allowance program to 
eligible participants working in the offices of a committee of the 
House or Senate.
    ROA supports.

CONCLUSION

    ROA appreciates the opportunity to testify on pending legislation 
and ways to improve military to civilian transitions for citizen-
warriors and their families.
    All too often military and veterans' law and policy are developed 
without an understanding of or appreciation for the important 
distinctions between reserve and active duty service.
    The members of the Reserve and National Guard invariably lose out. 
And so, too, their families.
    That means America's military readiness loses out. We cannot afford 
that loss.
    ROA extends its sincerest gratitude for this hearing and stands 
ready to provide added support on the issues covered in this statement 
and other areas of mutual interest.

ADDITIONAL PENDING LEGISLATION FOCUSED ON RC TRANSITION NEEDS

    As an aside, ROA urges the members of this Subcommittee to co-
sponsor the bills under this sub-heading. They all relate to improving 
the transitions from military to civilian life for reserve component 
service members past and present and their families.
    Frankly, we believe this topic is worthy of a joint hearing between 
both the House and Senate Committees on Veterans Affairs and Armed 
Services.
    That said, we are thankful for the Subcommittee allowing an open 
dialog on issues, benefits, and programs germane to Title 10 during 
this hearing and look forward to engaging further on:

          H.R. 7543/S. 3873, the Guard and Reserve GI Bill 
        Parity Act of 2024

    ROA thanks Reps. Mike Levin (CA-49), Juan Ciscomani (AZ-06), Trent 
Kelly (MS-01), Andy Kim (NJ-03), Mark Takano (CA-49), Frank Mvran (IN-
01), Mike Thompson (CA-04), Mike Lawler (NY-17), Derrick Van Orden (WI-
03), and Chris Pappas (NH-01) and Sens. Jerry Moran (KS) and Jon Tester 
(MT) for sponsoring this legislation, which passed the House last 
Congress.
    Under current law, reserve component members can accrue 
``qualifying days'' toward receiving Post-9/11 GI Bill benefits if they 
have served at least 90 cumulative or 30 continuous days on active duty 
and are discharged with a service-connected disability or awarded the 
Purple Heart for service after September 10, 2001.
    Reserve component members must ``wear the uniform'' and perform 
their duty responsibilities for a minimum of 39 days each fiscal year. 
Unfortunately, these duty days cannot be accrued toward receiving 
Post9/11 GI Bill educational benefits.
    From ROA's perspective, this puts members of the reserve components 
at a distinct disadvantage for receiving their service-earned Post-9/11 
GI Bill educational benefits, subjectively values certain duty days in 
higher regard, and does not reflect the modern-day battle rhythm of 
reserve component service.
    In many instances, for the same training day, it is possible for an 
active component member to receive credit toward their GI Bill, whereas 
a reserve component member serving shoulder-to shoulder would not.
    H.R. 7543/S. 3873, the Guard and Reserve GI Bill Parity Act of 2024 
resolves this disparity by allowing reserve component service members 
to accrue all paid points days toward receiving the Post-9/11 GI Bill, 
whereas ``all paid points days'' includes days for training, active 
military service, inactive training, and general duty.

          H.R. 5516, the Justice for Servicemembers Act

    ROA thanks Ranking Member Takano for sponsoring this legislation 
and urges the members of the Subcommittee to support it.
    The Justice for Servicemembers Act simply prohibits the use of 
forced arbitration of disputes covered by the Uniformed Services 
Employment and Reemployment Rights Act (USERRA) and the Servicemember 
Civil Relief Act (SCRA).
    Under USERRA, veterans and service members have some protection 
from discrimination based on their military service; they have the 
right to return to their civilian jobs once their active service ends.
    However, arbitration is an alternate dispute resolution method that 
can be very pro-employer and anti-employee.
    As in many other areas of employment law, federal courts have 
dismissed USERRA legal claims where the plaintiff has been forced to 
sign an agreement requiring that employment-related legal claims to go 
to arbitration.
    Arbitration is a type of private proceeding that results in a 
decision concerning a matter in dispute between the employee and 
employer. Normally, the employer chooses an arbitrator or a panel of 
arbitrators who sit as judge and jury. This creates an incentive for 
arbitrators to decide in the employer's favor so they can make more 
money handling future cases for the employer.
    Depending on the wording of the agreement, the arbitration process 
can present significant drawbacks for employees. In some cases, the 
employer pays for the arbitration. In others, the parties could split 
the costs, or the party losing the case could pay for the arbitration 
and possibly the fees and costs incurred by the winning party.
    In some cases, the parties are required to keep their dispute 
private, so the proceedings cannot be disclosed. This means that an 
employer can systemically and repeatedly violate the law, and no one 
will know about it. The ability of the parties to obtain evidence can 
be restricted. It can also be very difficult to have such an agreement 
ruled invalid by a judge or have an arbitration ruling overturned in 
the court system because arbitration is generally not appealable.
    This practice undermines USERRA and negatively impacts the career 
and financial readiness of those it seeks to protect. Eliminating these 
forced arbitration requirements is common sense, from ROA's 
perspective, and merely seeks to reinforce the integrity and 
enforceability of USERRA and SCRA.

          H.R. 4221, the Healthcare for Our Troops Act

    ROA thanks the House National Guard and Reserve Components Caucus 
Co-Chairs Andy Kim and Trent Kelly (MS-01) for sponsoring this 
legislation and urges the members of this Subcommittee to ``sign on'' 
as co-sponsors.
    Discontinuities in TRICARE can cause confusion and irreparable 
injury to reserve component service members and their families.
    130,000 members of the Reserve and National Guard, for example, are 
presumably not enrolled in any health insurance plan right now because 
of TRICARE Reserve Select's (TRSs) increasing prices.
    These ``injuries'' are exacerbated during the transition process, 
as reserve component members and their families must navigate between 
different insurance plans depending on the orders they serve, which 
often creates lapses in coverage.
    According to the frequently cited RAND Report, ``Without careful 
management, this constant state of flux can cause gaps in health care 
coverage for service members and their families. Relatedly, reserve 
component members may not be able to find local health care providers 
that accept the military's health plans, especially if they live 
farther from highly populated areas and military installations.''
    The most effective way, within the current construct, to solve this 
is to make TRS more affordable. The Healthcare for Our Troops Act 
accomplishes this by eliminating the cost of medical and dental care 
under TRS.
    In alignment with Gen. Daniel Hokanson, Chief of the National Guard 
Bureau, ROA urges the members of this Subcommittee to ease transitions 
between military and civilian life for reserve component service 
members and their families by co-sponsoring H.R. 4221, the Healthcare 
for Our Troops Act.
    This bill is also supported by The Military Coalition, representing 
5.5 million service members, veterans, and their families.

          H.R. 3668/S. 1670, the TRICARE Fairness for National 
        Guard and Reserve Retirees Act

    ROA thanks Reps. Bill Johnson (OH-06) and Dean Phillips (MN-03) and 
Sens. Rob Portman (OH) and Elizabeth Warren (MA) for sponsoring this 
bill and urges the members of the Subcommittee to co-sponsor it.
    Reserve and National Guard service members can retire after at 
least 20 ``good years'' of service. A good year requires a minimum 
number of points.
    Members of the reserve components must wait until age 60 before 
they can receive retirement pay.
    However, there is a pathway to early age retirement. Public Law No: 
110-181, the Fiscal Year 2008 National Defense Authorization Act, 
reduced the retirement age for certain eligible reserve component 
servicemembers from age 60 to no less than 50.
    Early age retirement recognizes the increased reliance on the 
reserve components in Operations Iraqi Freedom and Enduring Freedom and 
rewards certain citizen-warriors who served - it only includes certain 
active duty orders on or after January 29, 2008.
    These reserve component servicemembers are commonly referred to as 
``gray area'' retirees, as they have retired, but have not yet attained 
the age required for benefits.
    However, the Fiscal Year 2008 NDAA did not provide these gray area 
retirees with access to the same subsidized healthcare benefit(s) 
offered to all other military retirees under TRICARE Prime (Title 10 
U.S.C. 1074(b)).
    In 2009, Congress created the TRICARE Retired Reserve (TRR) 
program, which provides these retirees with access to non-subsidized 
healthcare. As a result, TRR healthcare costs are substantially more 
expensive than other TRICARE programs.
    TRR is currently about 2,000 percent more expensive than TRICARE 
Prime and close to 4,000 percent more than TRICARE Select (for both the 
member and the member and their family). These costs are simply 
unaffordable for too many of these retirees, who earned the right to 
receive the same healthcare benefit(s) as their brothers and sisters in 
arms.
    The TRICARE Fairness for National Guard and Reserve Retirees Act 
eliminates this unfair, congressionally created access barrier to 
healthcare.
    This bill is also supported by The Military Coalition, representing 
5.5 million service members, veterans, and their families.

          H.R. 3253, the Reservist Pay Equity Act

    ROA thanks Reps. Jimmy Panetta (CA-19), Brad Wenstrup (OH-02), Don 
Beyer (VA-08), and Blake Moore (UT-01) for sponsoring this bill and 
urges the members of the Subcommittee to sign on as co-sponsors.
    USERRA affords many protections to members of the reserve 
components.\17\
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    \17\ https://www.dol.gov/agencies/vets/programs/userra/USERRA-
Pocket-Guide#:8:text=The %20Uniformed %20Services %20Employment % 20and 
%20Reemployment %20Rights %20Act %20of %201994,for %20all %20uniformed 
%20service %20members.
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    In several amicus curiae briefs and ``Law Review'' articles, ROA 
has stated this includes paid military leave to an employee who is away 
from his or her civilian job for training of service. Despite several 
circuit court rulings, this is not widely recognized by adjudicators or 
industry practices.
    However, employers can help reserve component service members on 
orders and their families by offering differential pay as a benefit of 
employment.
    There is currently a tax credit that seeks to incentivize the 
offering of this benefit, which ``refunds'' employer's 20 percent of up 
to $20,000 in differential wage payments made per reserve component 
employee.
    However, the incentive has not kept pace with the current rate of 
inflation or the increased reserve component op-tempo.
    By increasing the tax credit from 20 to 50 percent of up to $20,000 
commensurate with economic conditions, this bill simply enhances dual-
career path opportunities for employees and incentives employer support 
of the reserve components.
    Further, it enhances the financial readiness of reserve component 
members and families throughout their transition(s) from civilian to 
military duty.
                                 ______
                                 

                 Prepared Statement of Kristina Keenan

    Chairman Van Orden, Ranking Member Levin, and members of the 
subcommittee, on behalf of the men and women of the Veterans of Foreign 
Wars of the United States (VFW) and its Auxiliary, thank you for the 
opportunity to provide our remarks on legislation pending before this 
subcommittee.

H.R. 6225, Expanding Home Loans for Guard and Reservists Act

    The VFW supports this legislation, which would expand eligibility 
for the VA Home Loan Guaranty program to service members of the 
National Guard and Reserves who have performed active duty for training 
for thirty consecutive days or more. Currently, only full-time National 
Guard service for ninety cumulative days, which includes thirty 
consecutive days, qualifies for the home loan. The VFW supports this 
expansion to ensure that members of the National Guard and Reserves 
have the housing stability needed to effectively perform their duties 
as they balance military service and civilian lives.

H.R. 6656, Stuck on Hold Act

    The VFW supports this legislation to require the Department of 
Veterans Affairs (VA) to improve each of its customer service telephone 
lines by implementing an automated system to inform callers of the 
anticipated wait time, and to automatically generate a return call to 
anyone waiting longer than 15 minutes. It would also require VA to 
issue guidance on how to reduce overall caller wait times to 15 minutes 
or less. The VFW recognizes the importance of this proposed improvement 
to VA telephone lines to better serve callers and ensure they connect 
with a VA professional to address their needs.

H.R. 7323, To amend title 38, United States Code, to direct the 
Secretary of Veterans Affairs to disapprove courses of education 
offered by a public institution of higher learning that does not charge 
the in-state tuition rate to a veteran using certain educational 
assistance under title 10 of such Code.

    The VFW supports this legislation to include the Montgomery GI Bill 
Selected Reserve benefit to the in-state tuition waiver within title 38 
of the United States Code. Currently, VA can disapprove programs and 
courses offered by institutions of higher learning that do not offer 
veterans in-state tuition rates. Chapter 30, 31, 33, and 35 benefits 
are included in the law presently. This legislation would add Chapter 
1606 of title 10, the Montgomery GI Bill Selected Reserve. The Selected 
Reserve is a key component of the Reserve forces. These service members 
train regularly and can be called to active duty at any time. Their 
education benefits should be equally protected as compared to other VA 
programs, and they should be fairly charged in-state tuition rates.

H.R. 7613, Veterans Flight Training Responsibility Act of 2024

    The VFW supports this proposal to set limitations on the use of the 
GI Bill for certain flight training. Years ago, the GI Bill was 
essentially a blank check to allow certain flight schools to charge 
uncapped amounts of money. Flight training is expensive, and currently 
pilots are in demand across the country. However, the VFW believes 
there should be reasonable limitations on the amount of money spent on 
flight training, and that this legislation is a fair balance for 
veterans who pursue flight training through the GI Bill.

H.R. 7643, Veterans congressional Work Study Act

    The VFW supports this proposal to expand the VA work-study program 
to include work focused on VA-related casework, policy, or oversight in 
a House or Senate committee, the Congressional Research Service, the 
Government Accountability Office, or the Congressional Budget Office. 
The program focuses on work entirely related to VA and veterans, and 
currently allows for work in VA medical facilities, offices, 
cemeteries, and the Board of Veterans' Appeals. The proposed expansion 
would be consistent with VA's focus, while providing meaningful work 
opportunities for student veterans in additional career fields.

H.R. 7653, Veterans Employment Readiness Yield (VERY) Act of 2024

    The VFW supports this proposal to update terminology in United 
States Code regarding the Veteran Readiness and Employment (VR&E) 
program. Currently, veterans may be eligible for this benefit if they 
experience an ``employment handicap'' due to their service-connected 
disabilities. This proposal would change the language to ``employment 
barrier.'' The VFW supports modernizing this terminology to more 
accurately reflect the effects that service-connected disabilities can 
have on veterans and their employment.

Discussion Draft, To amend title 38, United States Code, to provide for 
the restoration of entitlement of individuals entitled to educational 
assistance under the laws administered by the Secretary of Veterans 
Affairs who use such entitlement to pursue a course or program of 
education at an educational institution found to have violated certain 
prohibitions on advertising, sales, and enrollment practices, and for 
other purposes

    The VFW supports this proposal to ensure that veterans and 
beneficiaries of VA education benefits are protected if an educational 
institution is found to have violated certain prohibitions regarding 
advertising, sales, and enrollment practices. Schools found in 
violation would be required to repay funds to the Department of 
Veterans Affairs. VA would also restore entitlements to beneficiaries. 
Requiring schools to be responsible for repayment if they engage in 
unauthorized activities would ensure that taxpayer-supported federal 
funding is managed properly.
    The VFW also supports H.R. 1767, which would provide similar relief 
to veterans as this proposal. We hope the subcommittee works to combine 
these two bills to retain the best aspects of both to provide full 
restitution for veterans who need their education entitlements 
restored.

Discussion Draft, Enhancing Service Member Transition

    The VFW supports the intent of this bill, but has some concerns 
regarding the details of certain title 10, Department of Defense (DOD), 
portions of this proposal. The VFW works with approximately 10 percent 
of the separating force every single year, and has direct knowledge of 
how TAP works and how it should work.
    This bill contains many great elements such as language from the 
TAP Promotion Act and the Combat Veterans Pre-Enrollment Act, both of 
which the VFW strongly supports. This draft bill also includes reports 
that would ensure regular updates on critical aspects of transition 
such as timeliness, attendance, pathway participation, and frequency of 
participation. The VFW has spoken about the elements in this proposed 
legislation during numerous hearings before this subcommittee and 
before the Senate.
    However, we have concerns about some of the changes to the title 10 
aspects of the bill that we know are well-intentioned, but may have 
unintended consequences or are not clear enough. For example, we think 
prohibiting a member of the armed forces from providing pre-separation 
counseling is a good aspect, but believe prohibiting civilian employees 
of the Department from doing so may force DOD toward outside 
contractors, which would further distance counselors from congressional 
oversight.
    Addressing homelessness and food insecurity is a great addition to 
pre-separation counseling, but pre-separation counseling should happen 
365 days prior to separation. We believe adding this screening and a 
subsequent one closer to separation would provide a more accurate 
assessment of those needs upon separation. A service member may not be 
facing homelessness 1 year from separation, and conducting screening 
only at that moment may not give an accurate assessment.
    We believe the prohibition of providing a DD Form 214 to service 
members who do not complete counseling is a well-intentioned attempt to 
force compliance. However, we have knowledge that most junior enlisted 
service members who do not complete the Transition Assistance Program 
(TAP) do not do so because they are limited by commanders. This could 
potentially penalize troops for command failures. We strongly believe 
there needs to be accountability for DOD to follow the law. Commanders 
should be held responsible for ensuring their transitioning service 
members attend TAP in a timely manner. We do not believe withholding a 
DD Form 214 would accomplish that goal.
    The VFW believes the private sector should be used to help improve 
outcomes in TAP. The portion of this proposal that would incorporate 
that into the program is potentially beneficial, but it may be too 
restrictive. We believe the scope of the requirements for partnerships 
with the private sector should be refined. Currently, there are not 
many organizations that provide career services to at least 5,000 
individuals. There are not enough organizations with a national 
presence that meet this criteria and could offer services to the entire 
separating force. Many organizations provide outstanding services to 
separating service members, but operate at a slightly lesser scale than 
what is proposed. We believe a pilot program with multiple mid-sized 
organizations at various locations would be a good start to integrating 
the private sector into TAP.
    The waiver for Reserve Component members is a reasonable provision 
for those who do not need the assistance, but lack of standardization 
of resources is a major concern. Simply adding an attendance waiver for 
certain Reserve Component troops without also adding standardized 
resources addresses only half of the problem. The VFW believes this is 
a great start to a transition reform bill, but the issues listed above 
would need to be addressed before we fully support this language. We 
hope this subcommittee engages with us to help refine this proposal to 
ensure it provides the great resources it intends.

Draft Discussion, Fair Access to Co-ops for Veterans Act of 2024

    The VFW supports this draft proposal to extend the VA Home Loan 
Guaranty program to veterans seeking to purchase residential 
cooperative housing units (co-ops). Since the program does not 
currently include co-ops, veterans who live in cities where these 
housing options are prevalent are disproportionately affected. New York 
City is the prime example. In that city alone, co-ops comprise almost 
two-thirds of all multi-family housing, for which veterans cannot use 
VA home loans. Veteran home ownership in New York City is significantly 
lower than the rest of the country, which is concerning. Other cities 
where co-ops are prevalent are Baltimore, Chicago, Los Angeles, Miami, 
Minneapolis, Newark, Palm Beach, Philadelphia, San Francisco, and 
Washington, DC. Expanding the VA home loan program to co-ops would help 
fix an equity issue for veterans who live in these areas, and provide 
long-term housing stability.
    Chairman Van Orden, this concludes my testimony. Again, the VFW 
thanks you and Ranking Member Levin for the opportunity to testify on 
legislation pending before this subcommittee. I am prepared to take any 
questions you or the subcommittee members may have.

 Information Required by Rule XI2(g)(4) of the House of Representatives

    Pursuant to Rule XI2(g)(4) of the House of Representatives, the VFW 
has not received any federal grants in Fiscal Year 2024, nor has it 
received any federal grants in the two previous Fiscal Years.
    The VFW has not received payments or contracts from any foreign 
governments in the current year or preceding two calendar years.
                                 ______
                                 

                Prepared Statement of Marquis Barefield

    Chairman Van Orden, Ranking Member Levin and Members of the 
Subcommittee:
    DAV (Disabled American Veterans) has a mission that includes the 
principle that this Nation's first duty to veterans is the 
rehabilitation and welfare of its wartime disabled. This principle 
envisions vocational rehabilitation and/or education to assist these 
veterans to prepare for and obtain gainful employment, enhanced 
opportunities for employment, job placement and self-employment, so 
that the full array of talents and abilities of disabled veterans are 
used productively and to their greatest levels.
    We are pleased to provide our views on the bills impacting service-
disabled veterans, their families and the programs administered by the 
Department of Veterans Affairs (VA) that are under consideration by the 
Subcommittee.

      H.R. 6225, Expanding Home Loans for Guard and Reservists Act

    The Expanding Home Loans for Guard and Reservists Act would amend 
title 38, United States Code, Section 3701(b) for the term veteran to 
include individuals who performed active duty for training for a period 
of 30 consecutive days.
    VA helps veterans, service members, and eligible surviving spouses 
become homeowners. As part of VA's mission to serve, they provide a 
home loan guaranty benefit and other housing-related programs to help 
those that are eligible buy, build, repair, retain, or adapt a home for 
their own personal occupancy.
    The Johnny Isakson and David P. Roe, M.D. Veterans Health Care and 
Benefits Improvement Act of 2020, signed into law Jan 5, 2020 (PL 116-
315) expanded the VA Home Loan program eligibility to National Guard 
service members who perform ``full-time National Guard duty'' for at 
least 90 days, of which 30 are consecutive.
    Since then, gaps have been identified that makes it more difficult 
for certain National Guard service members conducting Active Duty 
training to receive the full credit for their time served and 
subsequent access the VA home loan benefit. This legislation provides a 
technical fix to ensure that each of our men and women in uniform can 
earn the benefits they have earned through their full-time National 
Guard duty and service to our country.
    DAV supports this legislation as it expands the existing 
eligibility to the VA Home Loan program and corrects the gaps 
identified in PL 116-315. Veterans clearly know the price of protecting 
the American dream and those who served should have access to achieve 
it.

                      H.R. 6656, Stuck On Hold Act

    The Stuck On Hold Act would require VA's telephone call line to 
include an automated response system that would do two things: 1) 
advise the caller of the anticipated wait time and 2) offer the caller 
the ability to receive a callback if the wait time is over 15 minutes. 
The goal of this bill is to keep veteran wait times to 15 minutes or 
less.
    The Veterans Benefits Administration (VBA) is responsible for 
processing veterans' claims and appeals for myriad benefits and 
services. In 2022 alone, VBA completed more than 1.7 million disability 
compensation and pension claims. As of March 1, 2024, VBA had 992,344 
pending claims. With these high numbers, veterans should not have to 
wait on the phone for an extended period of time to receive assistance 
or the latest information about their claims or appeals. VBA has 
estimated that one claim generates eight separate contacts to the call 
centers. This means that VA could expect eight million calls yet this 
year.
    DAV proudly supports H.R. 6656, the Stuck On Hold Act, in 
accordance with DAV Resolution No. 220, which calls on Congress and VA 
to support significant and meaningful processes to reform VA's overall 
workloads.

 H.R. 7323, a bill to direct the VA Secretary to disapprove courses of 
education offered by a public institution of higher learning that does 
    not charge the in-state tuition rate to a veteran using certain 
                         educational assistance

    H.R. 7323 would allow members of the selected reserve along with 
individuals who receive benefits under title 38, United States Code, 
Chapters 30, 31, 33 or 35, to be able to pay the in-state tuition rates 
for educational benefits received by the VA. This legislation would 
take effect on August 1, 2024.
    Upon separation from service, many veterans do not always fully 
understand the scope and breadth of their earned benefits and how to 
access those benefits. Furthering their education and seeking gainful 
employment to support themselves and their families becomes a veteran's 
immediate focus upon leaving service.
    By allowing a veteran to pay in-state tuition rates while pursuing 
their post-secondary education would save them thousands of dollars as 
opposed to them being subjected to paying out-of-state tuition rates.
    In accordance with DAV Resolution No. 542, we support H.R. 7323, as 
it opens the door for more veterans to be able to secure a benefit to 
help them pursue their educational goals and at a more affordable rate.

     H.R. 7613, Veterans Flight Training Responsibility Act of 2024

    The Veterans Flight Training Responsibility Act would authorize the 
VA to pay a public institution of higher learning up to $100,000 for a 
veteran enrolled in flight training. An annual percentage increase 
would be available over the maximum rate and tied to the Consumer Price 
Index (CPI). The rates noted in this legislation would become effective 
for those individuals who first pursue a program of flight training on 
or after August 1, 2025.
    According to the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics, there were 
142,000 jobs available for airline and commercial pilots in 2022. 
Overall employment of airline and commercial pilots is projected to 
grow 4 percent from 2022 to 2032. About 16,800 openings for airline and 
commercial pilots are projected each year, on average, over the next 
decade. Many of those openings are expected to result from the need to 
replace workers who transfer to different occupations or exit the labor 
force into retirement.
    DAV fully supports H.R. 7613, the Veterans Flight Training 
Responsibility Act in accordance with DAV Resolution No. 542, as it 
would provide unique opportunities for service-disabled veterans to 
become airline or commercial pilots and overcome their employment 
barriers.

 H.R. 7643, a bill to authorize the use of VA work-study allowance to 
      carry out casework, policymaking, and oversight at certain 
                         congressional offices

    H.R. 7643 would allow individuals in the VA Work Study program the 
opportunity to work in the offices of the Senate and House of 
Representatives, the Congressional Research Service, the Government 
Accountability Office or the Congressional Budget Office. The 
individuals selected for this program would be involved in supporting 
casework, policymaking and oversight in those offices.
    This legislation would increase the opportunities for individuals 
in the VA work-study program. Currently, work-study students can only 
work at VA facilities, educational facilities, state agencies or other 
non-VA facilities. The work performed by work-study students must be 
entirely related to VA and veterans.
    In accordance with DAV Resolution No. 542, we strongly support H.R. 
7643, as it would expand the VA work-study program and give service-
disabled veterans more career options to explore while meeting their 
educational goals.

 H.R. 7653, to update certain terminology regarding veteran employment

    H.R. 7653 would change the language in title 38, United States 
Code, from ``employment handicap'' to ``employment barrier'' and 
``employment handicaps'' to ``employment barriers.''
    There is perception that the word ``handicap'' has a negative 
connotation. According to the National Education Association (NEA), 
language matters. Word choices can either create inclusive or 
exclusionary environments, create or disrupt barriers to inclusion, 
uplift or demean differences, or sustain or disperse stereotypes about 
persons with disabilities.
    The NEA notes we should be conscious of antiquated words that have 
negative connotations for people with disabilities (e.g., 
``handicapped'' or ``crippled''). Advocates of person-first language 
believe that a person with disabilities is an individual first and 
shouldn't be identified by their disability.
    DAV was founded on the principle that this Nation's first duty to 
veterans is the rehabilitation and welfare of its wartime disabled. 
This principle specifically encompasses VA Vocational Rehabilitation & 
Education programs and removing obstacles for employment. DAV supports 
this change of terminology in the statute.

       H.R. 7703, Fair Access to Co-ops for Veterans Act of 2024

    The Fair Access to Co-ops for Veterans Act would allow veterans the 
ability to use their VA home loan certificates to help purchase 
cooperative housing units. The VA would have to set forth the 
regulatory underwriting requirements to allow this type of purchase.
    This bill would also set the fee for the loan to 3.25 percent and 
does not discriminate whether the loan is an original loan, loan 
assumption, or other circumstance.
    Provisions in the bill would give VA the authority to advertise the 
availability of this type of loan through the issuance of guidance, 
notification to eligible veterans, participating lenders and interested 
realtors of such loans.
    Cooperative housing, commonly known as a co-op, is a popular 
housing model you'll find in major cities like New York city. Tenants 
or members collectively own and share responsibility for an entire 
building or property.
    Co-ops are typically apartments in large buildings, particularly in 
big cities. However, several other co-op housing types exist, including 
the following: townhouses, duplexes, single-family homes or 
manufactured homes. They are generally considered more affordable 
housing in major cities. Co-op financing differs from financing for a 
traditional home because co-op owners don't own the real estate. To 
finance with a co--op loan, a lender will review a co-op's operations, 
its board of directors and the property's underlying mortgage.
    DAV strongly supports this legislation as it would provide service-
disabled veterans more options to obtain affordable housing for 
themselves and their families. Affordable housing options are one of 
the top priorities for service-disabled veterans, especially those 
transitioning from active duty.

Draft bill to provide for the restoration of entitlement of individuals 
entitled to VA educational assistance to pursue a course or program of 
education at an educational institution found to have violated certain 
      prohibitions on advertising, sales, and enrollment practices

    This draft legislation would restore any used portion or aggregate 
period of educational assistance an individual would have lost due to 
being enrolled in an educational institution that violated title 38, 
United States Code, Section 3696 subsections (a), (c) or (d). This 
covers individuals that are in the following educational programs: 
Chapter 30, 31, 32, 33, 35 or Chapter 1606 or 1607 of title 10.
    Once it has been properly determined that the owner of an 
educational institution or the educational institution is in violation 
of the statute, it will be required to repay the VA or the individual 
all moneys received during the time period of the violation.
    If the educational institution or owner of the educational 
institution does not repay the individual or the VA, then the VA has 
the ability to disapprove a course or program of education offered by 
that school until the debt is repaid in full. Once the debt has been 
repaid, the school can request reinstatement for that course or program 
of education.
    If an institution of higher learning has been caught in violation 
of this statute due to no fault of the veteran, then the amount of 
entitlement the veteran has should not be reduced due to the 
circumstances of the school. This draft legislation would restore the 
student veterans' benefits that would have been lost if the institution 
of higher learning wasn't caught violating the statute.
    DAV supports this draft legislation, in accordance with DAV 
Resolution No. 542, because it will help student veterans maintain 
their benefits if an institution of higher learning is caught in 
violation of the statute due to no fault of the veteran.

   Draft bill to make improvements to certain programs for a member 
 nearing separation, or for a veteran who recently separated, from the 
                              Armed Forces

    The transition from military service to civilian life is very 
difficult for many veterans who must overcome obstacles to successfully 
obtain employment. Current law authorizes comprehensive transition 
assistance benefits and services for separating service members and 
their spouses. The Transition Assistance Program (TAP) program was 
created to help our separating service members successfully transition 
to the civilian workforce, start a business or pursue training or 
higher education and is now mandatory for active-duty personnel.
    This draft legislation would make changes to the program parameters 
of TAP. Based on certain criteria, a member may have up to three to 5 
days of entitlement to the program. Certain members of the reserve 
component can request a waiver for pre-separation counseling if they 
have received pre-separation counseling during the 3-year period 
preceding such request.
    TAP counseling would not be given by a member of the armed forces 
or a civilian employee. Pre-separation counseling must be provided in 
person to the extent possible. If the member cannot appear in person 
then counseling can be provided remotely. As part of the pre-separation 
process, a member that is separating, retiring or is discharged from 
service will have their contact information and a determination by the 
releasing branch of service provided to the VA as part of the VA Solid 
Start Program.
    Veterans Service Organizations (VSOs) are allowed to provide an 
hour-long presentation during pre-separation briefings. VSO briefings 
provide information on how the organization can assist the member 
obtain benefits from the VA and are not permitted to encourage a member 
to join their organization during the briefing. Participation by 
veteran service organizations, like DAV and others in the TAP program 
is essential for service members to gain a full understanding of 
entitlements and free assistance and representation available to them 
upon discharge from military service. An annual report is required to 
be furnished for TAP participation and VSO presentations.
    This legislation has a Department of Labor (DOL) portion that 
encourages the use of its Employment Navigator and Partnership Program. 
The DOL program has various components, to include private sector 
culture, resume writing, career networking and opportunities for 
spouses to use the program.
    This legislation would also implement a 3-year pilot program for 
military spouses. This program would be on a voluntary basis and 
include a curriculum, counseling and be carried out on not less than 
four military bases. At the conclusion of the program, a report would 
be required by the Department of Defense on the success of the pilot 
program and note if it should be made permanent.
    An area of concern for DAV is the provision in this draft 
legislation that mentions ``No member shall be provided with their DD 
Form 214 [military discharge document] until they have completed their 
pre-separation counseling. The only exceptions are for members who are 
being retired or separated for disability and those who are receiving 
discharges that are not characterized as honorable or general.'' 
Besides the noted exceptions, it is not clear how the program would 
handle a situation beyond the service member's control that would 
prevent them from finishing the required counseling. As such, it 
appears this legislation would punish the service member by not 
allowing them to receive their DD-214 in a timely manner.
    In accordance with DAV Resolution No. 113, we support this draft 
legislation and urge Congress to provide comprehensive oversight of the 
TAP program, its workshops, training methodology and delivery of 
services, and the collection and analysis of course critiques. We 
recommend changes to the DD-214 section of this draft legislation as 
noted above.
    Mr. Chairman, this concludes my statement.

                       Statements for the Record

                              ----------                              


            Prepared Statement of USAA Federal Savings Bank

    On behalf of the United Services Automobile Association (USAA) and 
our more than 13 million members of the U.S. military, veterans who 
have honorably served, and their families, thank you for convening 
today's hearing to discuss legislation to strengthen veterans' economic 
security and financial well-being. We appreciate the opportunity to 
provide this statement of support for H.R. 6225, the bipartisan 
Expanding Home Loans for Guard and Reservists Act.
    USAA is a membership association that serves members of the 
military community, including active duty, guard, reserve, retired and 
honorably separated and their families. Since our founding in 1922 by 
25 U.S. Army officers, USAA has pursued a mission of empowering 
financial security through competitive products, exceptional service, 
and trusted advice. In our second century of service, we remain focused 
on meeting our members' needs through every stage of life - from 
joining the military to buying a home to retiring.
    USAA employs approximately 37,000 people globally, and nearly 24 
percent of our employees identify as veterans, servicemembers, or 
military spouses. USAA's Military Affairs team, which has over 1,400 
years of combined military experience, includes more than 40 
representatives who operate on and near major military installations 
and advocate for servicemembers' financial readiness.
    Serving our members through the VA Home Loan Guaranty Program is an 
important component of our mission to serve military families and has 
allowed generations of veterans, servicemembers, and their families to 
achieve their dreams of homeownership. The VA loan program provides 
significant benefits for eligible borrowers, including 100 percent 
loan-to-value for purchases and the ability to avoid Private Mortgage 
Insurance.
    However, there are opportunities for policymakers and the 
Department of Veterans Affairs (VA) to address persistent obstacles 
that challenge borrowers' ability to effectively take advantage of this 
earned benefit. We commend the Committee's ongoing focus on these 
issues. Last Congress, we were pleased to support P.L. 117-308, the 
Improving Access to the VA Home Loan Benefit Act. By directing the VA 
to consider improvements to its appraisal process and related 
requirements, this new law will help level the playing field for VA 
borrowers, who are often disadvantaged compared to conventional 
borrowers.
    In addition to appraisal-related improvements, there are also 
opportunities to improve program eligibility challenges. We thank 
Representatives Jen Kiggans (R-VA) and Pat Ryan (D-NY) for 
reintroducing H.R. 6225, the Expanding Home Loans for Guard and 
Reservists Act. This bill will expand eligibility for VA home loans by 
enabling members of the Guard and Reserves to receive full credit 
toward their entitlement for time served on active duty training.
    Servicemembers in the National Guard and Reserves make significant 
sacrifices to serve our country while balancing the demands of civilian 
employment and family life. For many, reporting for duty may result in 
reduced income. With deployments averaging between 6 and 12 months and 
sometimes coming without notice, income reductions can impose financial 
stress and make budgeting especially difficult. Navigating the 
complexities of Guard and Reserve benefits can lead to additional 
stress. As one of our retired Air Force Reservist employees aptly 
stated, ``Part-time service often equates to full-time stress.'' And 
regardless of time spent performing active duty service, Guard and 
Reserve members make a full-time commitment to military readiness and 
standards.
    In some instances, Guard and Reserve members who have not met the 
minimum active duty service requirements may be unaware that they lack 
full entitlement for the VA home loan program until they are deep into 
the homebuying process. This is a particularly devastating experience 
that compounds the other inherent challenges of the dual military-
civilian lifestyle.
    As Reps. Kiggans and Ryan note, H.R. 6225 will help ensure that all 
men and women in uniform, including Guard and Reserve members, can 
access the benefits they have earned through service to our Nation. We 
look forward to consideration of H.R. 6225 during a future Committee 
markup and urge your support.
                                 ______
                                 

            Prepared Statement of Veterans Education Success

    Chairman Van Orden, Ranking Member Levin, and Members of the 
Subcommittee:
    We thank you for the opportunity to share this statement for 
consideration during this hearing, which includes several notable bills 
addressing topics in higher education and veterans' education benefits. 
Veterans Education Success is a nonprofit organization with the mission 
of advancing higher education success for veterans, service members, 
and military families, and protecting the integrity and promise of the 
GI Bill and other federal education programs.

Draft Bill Addressing 38 U.S.C. Sec.  3696

    This bill proposes restoring veterans' eligibility for education 
benefits during any period in which an institution is found to have 
violated 38 U.S.C. Sec.  3696, chiefly violations of advertising, 
sales, and enrollment practices. The bill would also mandate recoupment 
of those funds from the school, and adds an additional disapproval 
clause for schools which have not repaid benefits for periods of 
violation. We support this legislation, and believe it is long overdue. 
However, we believe this bill does not go far enough to ensure student 
veterans have the same rights as traditional students.\1\
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \1\ The term ``traditional students'' indicates students who are 
ages 18-24 years old, and generally reliant on U.S. Department of 
Education Title IV grants or loans, or private funding, versus student 
veterans frequently use Title 38 education benefits as their primary 
source of education funding.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    We note that the bill's language limiting restoration to periods 
``when the violation occurred'' may not allow for the restoration of 
benefits in the most egregious circumstances, such as when a school 
lured veterans into the program with substantial misrepresentations and 
then ended the misconduct after getting caught by law enforcement.
    Here are several examples that would not be covered by the draft 
legislation:

    A few years ago, the U.S. Department of Justice (DOJ) seized the 
bank accounts of the House of Prayer Christian Church - a purported 
``bible school'' that we exposed and brought to VA's attention, as 
veterans were being blatantly cheated out of their GI Bill and abused 
by an alleged cult leader.\2\, \3\
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \2\ United States of America v. $115,800.00 in U.S. Currency Funds, 
available at https://vetsedsuccess.org/us-attorney-action-against-
house-of-prayer-bible-seminary-january-2023.
    \3\ Veterans Education Success, Our Letter to VA and Georgia SAA 
Regarding House of Prayer Christian Church (Aug. 2020), https://
vetsedsuccess.org/letter-to-va-and-georgia-saa-regarding-house-of-
prayer-christian-church/.
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    In another example, the DOJ recouped more than $150 million from 
Retail Ready Career Center and sent the owner, Jonathan Dean Davis, to 
jail for 19 years after he had swindled thousands of veterans, taking 
their GI Bill and their housing allowance but providing nothing of 
value in return.\4\ But when the Federal Government recovered $150 
million, the veterans did not get their GI Bill benefits back.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \4\ United States Attorney's Office, Northern District of Texas 
Press Release, For-Profit Trade School Sentenced to Nearly 20 Years for 
Defrauding VA, Student Veterans (Sept. 22, 2021), https://
www.justice.gov/usao-ndtx/pr/profit-trade-school-sentenced-nearly-20-
years-defrauding-va-student-veterans.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Consider another example where traditional students have been able 
to obtain financial relief, but student veterans have not. Students 
with federal student loans from ITT Technical Institute have had their 
loans discharged due to the evidence of widespread fraud uncovered by 
the U.S. Department of Education (ED).
    However, veterans who used their GI Bill to attend ITT Technical 
Institute currently have no rights to restoration of their GI Bill in 
cases of fraud. It seems an absolute betrayal to student veterans that 
they cannot get back their GI Bill benefits when traditional students 
get their loans discharged under Title IV rules.
    The idea that veterans are defrauded out of their hard-earned GI 
Bill is a blatant insult counter to Congress' vision for the impact of 
the GI Bill. Student loans are forgiven if fraud is evident, but 
student veterans have no parity with regard to their U.S. Department of 
Veterans Affairs (VA) education benefits.
    As the Subcommittee is aware, there are now several bills on this 
topic. The veterans community has always valued that the hallmark of 
the House Veterans Affairs Committee is its longstanding commitment to 
bipartisan work to protect veterans.
    We encourage the Subcommittee to start work now on a bipartisan, 
bicameral solution that the President will sign. A bipartisan bicameral 
solution should ensure that student veterans have no fewer rights than 
non-veterans already enjoy. We believe a bipartisan solution should 
include the following elements:

      Establish authority for the Secretary of VA to restore GI 
Bill students if an educational institution faces punitive action from 
a state approving agency or the Secretary at any time, including 
seizure of property, disapproval of receiving educational assistance, 
or a finding of violation of a law or regulation due to fraudulent 
behavior and the GI Bill students were affected by the institution's 
action that was the subject of the punitive action.

      Establish authority for the Secretary of VA to restore GI 
Bill students' eligibility when ED has made a determination that the 
educational institution engaged in fraud entitling federal loan 
borrowers to financial relief and the GI Bill students would have been 
eligible for such financial relief had the GI Bill students had federal 
student loans.

      Establish authority for the Secretary of VA to restore GI 
Bill students' eligibility if a court of competent jurisdiction has 
found a school guilty of, or liable for, fraudulent behavior and has 
ordered the educational institution to pay financial relief to a 
student and the GI Bill student is in the same position as the student 
receiving financial relief.

      Establish authority for the Secretary of VA to restore GI 
Bill students' eligibility in cases where a school is found to be in 
violation of VA rules pertaining to fraud or misrepresentation, such as 
38 U.S.C. Sec.  3696, and the GI Bill student was negatively affected 
by such violation.

      Establish authority for the Secretary of VA to recoup 
funds from schools related to the aforementioned scenarios, but as a 
separate process from the question of restoration of entitlement. In 
other words, VA's recoupment of funds should not be a determining 
factor in whether or not VA should restore GI Bill entitlement.

      Establish the retroactive application of restoration not 
limited to the date of enactment

    We also would like to note for the Subcommittee's awareness that VA 
has a long history of not enforcing 3696, and encourage close oversight 
of VA's application of this statute, or any lack thereof.\5\ This 
further underscores the importance of considering additional elements 
for a more comprehensive restoration bill as outlined above.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \5\ Ochinko, Walter, ``VA Still Not Enforcing 1974 Ban on Schools 
that Engage In Deceptive Advertising and Recruiting,'' Veterans 
Education Success, (Oct. 2019), https://vetsedsuccess.org/wp-content/
uploads/2019/10/Vets_Ed_Success_IB_3696-1.pdf.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    We are eager to work with this Subcommittee to finally provide 
veterans with parity to their peers in higher education, and we thank 
the Subcommittee for the continued commitment to make these students 
whole.

Draft Bill Addressing Flight Training

    This bill proposes amending 38 U.S.C. Sec.  3313 to add subsection 
(m) to establish a maximum total cost ceiling of $100,000 per 
beneficiary on flight training at public institutions in order to bring 
them in line with the cap on non-degree flight training programs at 
private institutions.
    Presently, there is no tuition cap for flight training programs 
that are part of a program leading to a degree, other than the annual 
cap on funding for private schools.\6\ There is an annual cap at all 
types of institutions for flight training programs that do not lead to 
a degree.\7\ The bill would also establish annual percentage cost 
increases tied to the Consumer Price Index.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \6\ If a flight training program is part of a program leading to a 
degree at an institution of higher learning the payment amount is just 
a part of the general provisions for standard college degrees covered 
by 38 U.S.C. Sec.  3313(c). The specific provision for payment amounts 
to a public institution is in 38 U.S.C. Sec.  3313(c)(1)(A)(i) and it 
does not set a cap. If the degree is from a ``non-public or foreign 
institution'' the payment amount is covered in (c)(1)(A)(ii) which sets 
a cap at $17,500 per academic year with an annual percentage increase 
mechanism. The cost for flight programs that do not lead to a degree is 
specifically covered in 38 U.S.C. Sec.  3313(g)(3)(C). It provides a 
$10,000 per year cap, with an annual percentage increase mechanism as 
tied to 38 U.S.C. Sec.  3015(h), at all types of institutions for 
flight training that do not lead to a degree.
    \7\ Id.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    We believe this legislation would provide an important savings for 
VA and represents a reasonable cap in line with industry requirements. 
As one commercial pilot training school notes, ``becoming a pilot 
doesn't require an exorbitant amount of money,'' and they estimate a 
total cost ranging from $55,000 to $100,000.\8\
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \8\ Pilot Institute, ``How Much Does It Cost to Become a Pilot?,'' 
(Feb. 26, 2023), https://pilotinstitute.com/pilot-license-cost/.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    The proposed cap of $100,000, however, should not be limited to 
public institutions. Because the total amount of GI Bill benefits paid 
for flight training programs leading to a degree at non-public 
institutions can exceed $100,000,\9\ the Subcommittee should apply the 
proposed maximum total cost to non-public institutions as well. The 
Subcommittee could accomplish this by amending subsection (c) rather 
than subsection (g)(3)(C).\10\
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \9\ VA Increase in Maximum Tuition and Fee Amounts Payable Under 
the Post-9/11 GI Bill Notice, 88 Fed. Reg. 24665,24665-66 (published 
Apr. 21, 2023), available at https://www.Federalregister.gov/documents/
2023/04/21/2023-08450/increase-in-maximum-tuition-and-fee-amounts-
payable-under-the-post-911-gi-bill. (``For the 2023-2024 academic year, 
the Post-9/11 GI Bill allows VA to pay the actual net cost of tuition 
and fees not to exceed the in-state amounts for students pursuing 
training at public schools; $27,120.05 for students training at private 
and foreign schools...'').
    \10\  Section 2(a) of the bill adds the caveat, ``Subject to the 
limitation under subsection (m)'' and amends subsection (g)(3)(C). 
However, flight training programs that do not lead to a degree--
regardless of the institution--have an annual cap under (g)(3)(C). 
Rather than amending subsection (g)(3)(C), Section 2(a) of the bill 
should amend subsection (c) which provides the payment amounts for 
programs leading to a degree at both public and non-public 
institutions.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    We have previously provided testimony about our concerns regarding 
the historical abuses of the GI Bill by flight schools. Former House 
Veterans Affairs Committee Chairman, Rep. Jeff Miller, even famously 
stated, ``The GI Bill flight school loophole is so big you could fly a 
747 through it.''\11\, \12\ Veterans should have the 
opportunity to pursue their passion for flying without facing excessive 
costs from overpriced flight programs.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \11\ Veterans Education Success, ``LEGISLATIVE HEARING ON PENDING 
AND DRAFT LEGISLATION,'' (Oct. 11, 2017), https://vetsedsuccess.org/wp-
content/uploads/2020/03/VES-SFR-HVAC-Flight-Training-Schools.pdf.
    \12\ Harress, Christopher, ``GI Bill Flight School Benefits Could 
Be Slashed By Congress Amid Tuition Loophole Controversy,'' 
International Business Times, (Feb. 9, 2016), https://www.ibtimes.com/
gi-bill-flight-school-benefits-could-be-slashed-congress-amid-tuition-
loophole-2294612.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    This Subcommittee has previously worked in a bipartisan fashion to 
rein in the expenses of private flight training. This bill aims to 
continue that effort, ensuring that veterans aren't unfairly burdened 
by inflated costs. We do not want to hinder veterans from pursuing 
their career goals; rather, we advocate for reasonable limits on costs, 
especially considering past abuses by certain flight programs that took 
advantage of loopholes.
    We support this legislation, and thank the Subcommittee for its 
work to make opportunities for flight training available to veterans, 
while balancing the interests of taxpayers.

Draft Bill Addressing In-State Tuition for Montgomery GI Bill

    This bill would make the in-state tuition rate apply to Chapter 
1606 (Montgomery GI Bill - Select Reserve) as a precondition of a 
school's eligibility to receive Title 38 benefits. We have been long-
time proponents of military-connected students' receiving the in-state 
tuition rate due to the inability of these students to ``claim a home 
state'' based on the transient nature of military duty. We support this 
legislation offering this common sense technical change.

Draft Bill Addressing Expansion of Work-Study Authorities

    This bill aims to expand the scope of the VA Work-Study program by 
allowing veterans to engage in casework, policymaking, and oversight 
activities at specific congressional offices within the Department. For 
instance, veterans could assist in a Member of Congress's district 
office or gain valuable experience on Capitol Hill.
    This legislation not only provides beneficial opportunities for 
veterans, but also contributes to better serving the American people. 
The need for such expansion is underscored by the minimal 
representation of veterans in Congress at the staff level, where less 
than 2 percent have military experience.\13\
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \13\ Shane, Leo, ``Veterans welcome? Less than 2 percent of Capitol 
Hill staffers have military experience,'' (Jan 10, 2019), https://
www.militarytimes.com/news/pentagon-congress/2019/01/10/veterans-
welcome-less-than-2-percent-of-capitol-hill-staffers-have-military-
experience/.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    The bill would create a pathway for veterans to offer constituent 
support and bring a unique perspective to legislative matters. 
Additionally, we acknowledge the importance and broad value of the VA 
Work-Study program, particularly for student veterans seeking to 
supplement their income while pursuing training and education goals.
    We support extending the program's authorities to encompass various 
public service roles related to the federal legislative branch and 
endorse this legislation.

Draft Bill Addressing the Transition Assistance Program

    For many veterans, they choose to enter higher education as their 
next step on their career pathway.\14\ This should be no surprise, 
given that a majority of veterans want to change career paths from the 
jobs they were assigned in the military, which is also consistent with 
the usage rates of the GI Bill.\15\
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \14\ Zoli, C., Maury, R. & Fay, D., ``Missing Perspectives: 
Servicemembers' Transition from Service to Civilian Life--Data-Driven 
Research to Enact the Promise of the Post-9/11 GI Bill,'' Syracuse 
University Institute for Veterans and Military Families, (Nov. 2015). 
https://surface.syr.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1006&context=ivmf.
    \15\ Radford, A. W., Bailey, P., Bloomfield, A., Webster, B. H. 
Jr., & Park, H. C., ``A first look at post-9/11 GI Bill-eligible 
enlisted veterans' outcomes.'' American Institutes for Research. 
(2024), https://www.air.org/sites/default/files/2024-02/First-Look-
Post-9-11-GI-Bill-Outcomes-Enlisted-Veterans-February-2024.pdf.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    We applaud the Committee's proposal to improve outcomes associated 
with the Transition Assistance Program (TAP), and strongly encourage 
consideration of the elements we propose below that focus on the issue 
of higher education.
    Section 2 of this draft legislation would add technical 
requirements associated with pre-separation counseling, and prevent the 
U.S. Department of Defense (DOD) from separating someone who has not 
received the proper counseling.
    The bill proposes to mandate presentations by veterans service 
organizations (VSOs), ``warm handoffs'' to VA's Solid Start Program, 
and would also require VA to have the Member's contact information 
before separation. The bill would also mandate a partnership with the 
U.S. Department of Labor (DoL) and their Employment Navigator program, 
and establish a TAP pilot specific to military spouses.
    Finally, the bill would require several annual reports to monitor 
progress associated with the proposed changes. We see all of these 
proposals as common sense improvements that would enhance outcomes for 
service members and their families as they go through the transition 
process.
    Section 3 proposes a U.S. Government Accountability Office (GAO) 
study on the outcomes of DOD's SkillBridge program, and Section 4 
proposes expansion of current job counseling and placement services. 
Section 5 would mandate integration of VA's Solid Start Program into 
the overall TAP curriculum, and Section 6 would establish a pilot for 
VA Patient Pre-Enrollment. We also support each of these sections and 
appreciate their thoughtful consideration of the complexities 
associated with TAP.
    We have the following suggestions to improve the legislation:

    1. Align TAP Materials to Reflect the Education Pathway as the 
Majority Pathway of Transitioning Service Members

    We believe this legislation would be stronger if it incorporated 
additional measures bolstering a stronger focus on education within the 
overall TAP experience. In general, we find that discussion of higher 
education as a transition pathway is underemphasized in both the 
current TAP curriculum as well as the cultural focus of DOD.
    The last significant improvements to TAP came in the Fiscal Year 
2019 National Defense Authorization Act, in large part thanks to the 
leadership of this Subcommittee and its staff.\16\ That legislation 
established the mandate for DOD to create separate pathways based on a 
service member's background and interests. The legislation also 
established the various ``tracks'' of curriculum, including preparation 
for employment, education, vocational training, and 
entrepreneurship.\17\
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \16\ John S. McCain National Defense Authorization Act for Fiscal 
Year 2019, (P.L. 115-232), https://www.congress.gov/115/statute/
STATUTE-132/STATUTE-132-Pg1636.pdf.
    \17\ Defense Visual Information Distribution Service. ``TAP 
CURRICULUM,'' (Oct. 2023), https://www.dvidshub.net/publication/1235/
dod-tap-curriculum.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    However, most of the information and materials throughout the TAP 
process are focused on immediate employment.\18\ Unfortunately, this 
overemphasis on ``the resume'' and underemphasis on ``college 
applications'' neglects the fact that the majority of transitioning 
service members choose to go to school as their next immediate step 
after the military. We believe service members would be better 
positioned for success if discussion of higher education as a pathway 
was not limited to a 2-day elective session.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \18\ Aside from the topic of benefits, the ``Pres-Separation 
Counseling Guide'' addresses employment as 75 percent of the topics 
covered. https://www.dvidshub.net/publication/issues/67710.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Fortunately, for those who do self-select to participate in DOD's 
``2-Day Education Track: DOD Managing Your (MY) Education,'' there are 
many helpful resources. For example, when discussing the differences 
between using Tuition Assistance resources, and post-military resources 
such as the GI Bill, we strongly applaud that the curriculum states, 
``the institution that worked best for you while connected to the 
military may not be the best choice for you after transition.'' \19\
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \19\  Defense Visual Information Distribution Service. ``2023 TAP 
Curriculum: Managing Your (MY) Education,'' (Oct. 2023), https://
www.dvidshub.net/publication/issues/65989.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    We acknowledge the reality that service members often prioritize 
flexibility over outcomes for Tuition Assistance classes due to the 
demanding nature of military service. However, we believe material like 
this is buried in the curriculum, and that the guide should include an 
executive summary highlighting the importance of being an informed 
consumer when approaching higher education.
    The curriculum also lists several important factors to consider 
when selecting a school. The first factor, however, is ``location'' and 
the second and third factors, respectively, are ``quality,'' and 
``student outcomes.'' \20\ While location is a major driver, service 
members and veterans deserve to get the most out of their earned 
benefits.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \20\ Id, pgs 58-59.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    We would recommend moving quality and student outcome up as the 
primary factors, as location will ultimately be a logistical 
consideration regardless of school choice and is no more important than 
other logistical considerations such as net cost (which is arguably, 
more important).
    We also recommend adding the consideration of net cost, as there 
are some colleges that load up veterans with student loan debt in 
addition to taking their GI Bill, and many veterans complain to us that 
they were saddled with student loan debt they did not want or 
authorize.\21\
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \21\ Veterans Education Success, ``Veterans With Student Loans They 
Never Wanted or Authorized,'' (Oct. 2022), https://vetsedsuccess.org/
wp-content/uploads/2022/03/VES-REPORT-Veterans-with-Student-Loans-They-
Never-Authorized-or-Wanted_03-3.pdf.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    As the Subcommittee knows, the GI Bill covers the full cost of 
public universities and colleges, but not at some private colleges, 
especially for-profit programs. Sadly, too many veterans are not 
informed of this significant difference, which would likely change 
their college selection.

    2. Share and Enhance Existing Resources to Help Transitioning 
Service Members Make Informed Decisions

    Unfortunately, the stark reality is that service members and 
veterans are often targeted by predatory institutions for their 
lucrative education benefits. Other service members and veterans end up 
with loans for an education that was more expensive than they had 
understood and more costly than their GI Bill would cover.
    To help service members make better informed decisions related to 
the use of their hard-earned GI Bill benefits, vital information, 
including the typical earnings of graduates from specific schools - and 
the accompanying potential risks of wasting their GI Bill benefits at 
subpar schools - and the realities of net prices of private colleges, 
must be shared. The current TAP education track curriculum contains 
some information about warning signs service members and veterans 
should pay attention to when choosing a college or university, but they 
are not enough.
    One example is the ``Know Before You Go'' campaign by VA.\22\ While 
this video is shared during VA's portion of TAP, we believe this 
resource should be shared sooner and more regularly throughout the 
military lifecycle to educate service members on what to look for when 
choosing a school.
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    \22\ U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs, ``Know Before You Go,'' 
(Nov. 2, 2015), https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z1ttkv9oRI4.
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    Additionally, the USAA Educational Foundation created an unbranded 
video, available for use by any government agency, and could be 
included in the TAP curriculum.\23\ The video explains how veterans can 
avoid known efforts to defraud students and is an example of a resource 
that is already available from a reliable source.\24\
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    \23\ Awareness Video, (2020), https://vimeo.com/370920512.
    \24\ The Department of Defense Office of Financial Readiness has 
used other USAA Educational Foundation resources on its site https://
finred.usalearning.gov/.
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    The Subcommittee should also prioritize educating service members 
and veterans about student loan debt and should also introduce 
legislation to rename the ``Master Promissory Note'' as ``Student Loan 
Agreement.'' Too many military-connected students wind up with student 
loans they didn't understand or need.\25\ Additional loan debt 
education should incorporate awareness of the Consumer Financial 
Protection Bureau's ``Paying for College'' tool.\26\
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    \25\  U.S. Department of Education Office of Federal Student Aid. 
``Master Promissory Note (MPN),'' https://studentaid.gov/mpn/.
    \26\ Consumer Financial Protection  Bureau. ``Paying for College,'' 
https://www.consumerfinance.gov/paying-for-college/.
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    It is imperative that the trainers and instructors leading TAP 
classes provide transitioning veterans with neutral, objective 
information, and with no vested interest in where the service members 
choose to pursue higher education. For example, some non-profit 
organizations sponsored by or representing for-profit colleges are 
reportedly trying to secure roles leading TAP classes with the goal of 
pushing veterans to use their benefits at these schools.
    Having neutral advisors ensures the advice is focused on what is in 
the best interest of the student. Only government representatives or 
veterans service organizations taking no funding from colleges should 
lead these classes.
    Furthermore, much-needed improvements to the GI Bill Comparison 
Tool would provide valuable information for transitioning service 
members and improve their ability to make informed decisions related to 
their education. The following recommendations would provide 
significant improvements to the GI Bill Comparison Tool, and make it a 
more effective tool for service members as they transition:

      Enable searches by major or degree sought by geographic 
area. The Comparison Tool is decidedly not user-friendly or modern.

      Provide student outcome metrics from ED, especially 
graduates' earnings (as reported by the IRS to ED) and the comparison 
of an institution's tuition and graduation rates to the national 
medians for that type of school (e.g., 2-year vs. 4-year), as well as 
student loan debt levels and default rates. This information is readily 
available at ED and could be accomplished simply by pulling data from 
ED's College Navigator and College Scorecard.\27\, 
\28\, \29\
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    \27\ 38 U.S.C. 3698 requires VA to maintain various metrics on the 
GI Bill Comparison tool, such as (i) its public, private nonprofit, or 
proprietary for-profit status; (ii) the accrediting agency's name and 
contact details for student complaints; (iii) details on the state 
approving agency and its complaint contact information; (iv) 
participation in title IV programs under the Higher Education Act; (v) 
tuition and fees; (vi) median federal student loan debt upon program 
completion; (vii) cohort default rate; (viii) total enrollment, 
graduation rate, and retention rate; (ix) provision of technical, 
academic, and other support services; (x) policies on credit transfer 
from other institutions; (xi) administration of priority enrollment for 
student veterans; (xii) requirements for covered individuals under 
section 3679(e)(4); (xiii) affiliation with a religion and its 
denomination; (xiv) designation as a minority serving institution by 
the Secretary of Education or federal agency; and (xv) whether the 
institution is gender-specific.
    \28\ U.S. Department of Education, College Navigator, https://
nces.ed.gov/collegenavigator/.
    \29\ U.S. Department of Education, College Scorecard, https://
collegescorecard.ed.gov/.

      Establish a ``Risk Index'' to enable veterans to be aware 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
of the riskiest schools.

      Improve ``Caution Flags'' by posting these warnings in a 
timely manner so that prospective students have the information as soon 
as possible. Currently, VA fails to update and accurately maintain 
Caution Flags.

      Display student veteran complaints in a timely manner, as 
it can sometimes take several months, even after the complaint is 
closed, for complaint information to show up in the Comparison Tool.

      Show all student complaints received about a school on 
the Comparison Tool. In 2019, reportedly at the behest of for-profit 
college lobbyists, VBA adopted a policy to show only the complaints 
received in the most recent 24 months. This is not a veteran-centric 
policy and clearly benefits schools with a history of complaints. This 
is especially true in comparison to how the Federal Trade Commission 
(FTC) and Consumer Financial Protection Bureau (CFPB) operate, with the 
goal of not limiting consumer information available to individuals. The 
Comparison Tool should show the full history of complaints. The 
history, volume, and nature of complaints is relevant information, and 
veterans should be allowed to decide for themselves whether a school's 
history of complaints matters in their decision-making. SAAs, 
accreditors, other federal agencies, and academic researchers also 
would benefit from knowing a school's history of student complaints.

      Include whether the school responded to a complaint and 
whether the complaint was resolved to the satisfaction of the veteran, 
as is the practice of the Better Business Bureau and the 
CFPB.\30\, \31\ It is important for student veterans to know 
whether a school failed to respond to other student veterans' 
complaints received through the Feedback Tool. Disclosing information 
about school response rates and student satisfaction with the schools' 
responses adds context to complaints and helps students make informed 
choices.
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    \30\ Better Business Bureau, ``Complaints,'' (accessed Mar. 14, 
2024), https://www.bbb.org/process-of-complaints-and-reviews/
complaints.
    \31\ Consumer Financial Protection Bureau, ``Consumer Complaint 
Data base,'' (accessed Mar. 14, 2024), https://www.consumerfinance.gov/
data-research/consumer-complaints/.

      Maintain information about schools that close and/or lose 
GI Bill approval on the historical data section (``data download'') of 
the Comparison Tool for reference and research. For instance, student 
veterans who may be entitled to restoration of their GI Bill when a 
school closes or a program loses approval have difficulty locating 
information about their school when it disappears from WEAMS and the 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
historical data section (``data download'') of the Comparison Tool.

      Allow student veterans who submit a complaint in the 
Feedback Tool to upload attachments and have the option to make the 
narrative portion of their complaint public on the Comparison Tool.

      Automate the ED/VA data-crosswalk as it is labor 
intensive for VA employees to update it manually and they fail to do 
so. This is a simple process of aligning VA's facility codes with ED's 
OPEID numbers for each school, but it is an essential alignment.

    The GI Bill Comparison Tool is an important resource that is 
already included in TAP, and making it reliable and comprehensive is 
vital to veterans' long-term success. We also note that military-
connected students are understandably angry when they learn that a 
school that cheated them is one the government already knew about.
    Schools under law enforcement action have no place on military 
bases or receiving the government's stamp of approval for the GI Bill. 
This is something the Nation's leading veterans and military service 
organizations called for in 2016 and 2019, as did VA's Inspector 
General.\32\, \33\,\34\
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    \32\ Veterans Education Success. ``Twenty Three Veterans and 
Military Organizations Ask VA for Better Oversight of the GI Bill,'' 
(May 16, 2016), https://vetsedsuccess.org/twenty-three-veterans-and-
military-organizations-ask-va-for-better-oversight-of-the-gi-bill/.
    \33\ Veterans Education Success. ``36 Veteran and Military 
Organizations Ask VA for Better Oversight of GI Bill Colleges,'' (Feb. 
14, 2019), https://vetsedsuccess.org/36-veteran-and-military-
organizations-ask-va-for-better-oversight-of-gi-bill-colleges/.
    \34\ U.S. Department of Veterans' Affairs Office of Inspector 
General. ``VA's Oversight of State Approving Agency Program Monitoring 
for Post-9/11 GI Bill Students,'' (Dec. 3, 2018), https://
www.oversight.gov/sites/default/files/oig-reports/VAOIG-16-00862-
179.pdf.

      Provide service members with high quality counseling. 
Many of the Armed Services are not hiring qualified counselors. Without 
the appropriate guidance, service members will continue to elect 
easier, low-quality programs at unacceptable rates and pseudo-
counselors are subject to the bias of industry and the entity that 
trains them/hires them. DOD should require all counselors to meet OMB 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
standards for grade GS-1740-09, Guidance Counselors.

      Restrict base access for colleges that pose a significant 
risk to service members, especially after the recent loss of the 20-
student rule for base access. DOD's MOU with schools has proved 
insufficient; the Navy eliminated all base education offices; and the 
Army has insufficient resources to monitor bases. It is also a security 
risk. Job fairs and education fairs are dominated by predatory colleges 
with outsized military marketing efforts and poor educational outcomes. 
Whistleblowers tell us that representatives from these schools are on 
base, giving presentations to entire units during mandatory duty hours. 
DOD has significant leeway in statute to oversee bases and voluntary 
education programs. DOD should immediately ban from military 
installations any college that has been the subject of federal, state, 
or local law enforcement action or punitive regulatory action within 
the past 5 years.

3. Implement a Way for Stakeholders to Provide Timely Feedback

    Many changes have been made to TAP over the past few years and 
veteran groups such as Veterans Education Success have received useful 
feedback from participants. Efforts to share this feedback and make 
recommendations about improving the program, however, have been stifled 
by the absence of an efficient and timely way to do so.
    DOD's Transition to Veterans Program Office Curriculum Program 
Manager directs stakeholders to provide their feedback and 
recommendations for improvement to the DoL Advisory Committee on 
Veterans Employment, Training, and Employer Outreach (ACVETEO). ACVETEO 
publishes recommendations only once a year in their annual report. The 
annual report is addressed to the Secretary of Labor who then would be 
required to share salient points with DOD.
    By the time feedback and recommendations reach the relevant staff 
member within DOD who can make improvements, over a year of time will 
have passed and a great deal of relevant information likely will have 
been lost along the way. Stakeholders have been told by DOD that 
because the GI Bill program is managed by VA, VA has input into what is 
included in the TAP curriculum. Similarly, however, there is no 
efficient way for stakeholders to make recommendations and ensure they 
will be considered by the TAP curriculum program managers. This is not 
an efficient or timely means to address needed improvements.
    Veterans, service members and stakeholders should have a more 
efficient way to keep the TAP program as current, relevant and useful 
as possible through timely feedback and recommendations.

Conclusion

    Veterans Education Success sincerely appreciates the opportunity to 
express our views before this Committee. As the higher education 
industry continues to evolve in these very dynamic times, we emphasize 
the importance of maintaining high standards of quality. Student 
veterans, taxpayers, and Congress must expect the best outcomes from 
the use of hard-earned GI Bill benefits. We look forward to the 
discussion and review of these proposals, and we are grateful for the 
continued opportunities to collaborate on these topics.

 Information Required by Rule XI2(g)(4) of the House of Representatives

    Pursuant to Rule XI2(g)(4) of the House of Representatives, 
Veterans Education Success has not received any federal grants in 
Fiscal Year 2023, nor has it received any federal grants in the two 
previous Fiscal Years.
                                 ______
                                 

            Prepared Statement of Disabled American Veterans
[[GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

   Joint Letter from RecruitMilitary, Orion Talent, Military Talent 
              Pipeline, LLC, Semper Forward, and ZeroMils
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               Prepared Statement of The American Legion
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                   Prepared Statement of Ken Calvert

    Chairman Van Orden, Ranking Member Levin, and members of the 
Subcommittee, thank you for holding today's hearing on my legislation, 
H.R. 6656, the Stuck On Hold Act.
    I believe all of us share a bipartisan belief that veterans, 
seniors, and all Americans deserve the best customer service possible 
when they call a federal agency looking for assistance. While most 
agency leaders and employees share that goal, there are occasions where 
they fall short.
    One area that has been notoriously challenging for many federal 
agencies is how they handle high volumes of telephone calls. Endless 
hold times can often become a nightmare for callers. This is especially 
true for older Americans who are less likely to be able to take 
advantage of information or services available online.
    Currently, most federal agencies have yet to develop any 
governmentwide customer service standard when receiving calls from the 
general public. Every government agency operates their call centers 
differently, resulting in a wide variety of customer service standards 
for the American people.
    I introduced the Stuck On Hold Act to require both the Veterans 
Administration and Social Security Administration to implement a more 
robust, user-friendly call system. Both departments would be required 
to inform callers of their estimated wait times and, if the wait is 
estimated to be longer than 15 minutes, give the caller the option of 
receiving an automated call back when it is their turn in line. With 
the Veterans Administration and the Social Security Administration 
processing millions of claims a year, modernization will be the key to 
maintaining satisfactory call standards that Americans have become 
accustomed to in the private sector.
    Veterans should not be left on hold praying that a federal employee 
answer is their call. They deserve better for the sacrifices they've 
made for their country. Let's give them some peace of mind.
    Again, thank you for holding today's hearing. I look forward to 
working with the committee to advance this legislation.

 Questions for the Record Submitted by Juan Ciscomani for Melissa Cohen
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     Answers to Questions for the Record Submitted to Melissa Cohen
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    Questions for the Record Submitted by Juan Ciscomani for James 
                               Rodriguez
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    Questions for the Record Submitted by Juan Ciscomani for Nadine 
                            Bullock-Pottinga
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   Questions for the Record Submitted by Juan Ciscomani for Kristina 
                                 Keenan
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