[House Hearing, 118 Congress]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]
______
EXECUTIVE OVERREACH: EXAMINING THE SBA'S ELECTIONEERING EFFORTS WITH
ASSOCIATE ADMINISTRATOR OF OFFICE OF FIELD
OPERATIONS, JENNIFER KIM
=======================================================================
HEARING
before the
SUBCOMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT, INVESTIGATIONS, AND REGULATIONS
OF THE
COMMITTEE ON SMALL BUSINESS
UNITED STATES
HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
ONE HUNDRED EIGHTEENTH CONGRESS
SECOND SESSION
__________
HEARING HELD
JULY 24, 2024
__________
GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT
Small Business Committee Document Number 118-056
Available via the GPO Website: www.govinfo.gov
_______
U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE
56-139 WASHINGTON : 2025
HOUSE COMMITTEE ON SMALL BUSINESS
ROGER WILLIAMS, Texas, Chairman
BLAINE LUETKEMEYER, Missouri
PETE STAUBER, Minnesota
DAN MEUSER, Pennsylvania
BETH VAN DUYNE, Texas
MARIA SALAZAR, Florida
TRACEY MANN, Kansas
JAKE ELLZEY, Texas
MARC MOLINARO, New York
MARK ALFORD, Missouri
ELI CRANE, Arizona
AARON BEAN, Florida
WESLEY HUNT, Texas
NICK LALOTA, New York
CELESTE MALOY, Utah
NYDIA VELAZQUEZ, New York, Ranking Member
JARED GOLDEN, Maine
DEAN PHILLIPS, Minnesota
GREG LANDSMAN, Ohio
MARIE GLUESENKAMP PEREZ, Washington
SHRI THANEDAR, Michigan
MORGAN MCGARVEY, Kentucky
HILLARY SCHOLTEN, Michigan
JUDY CHU, California
SHARICE DAVIDS, Kansas
CHRIS PAPPAS, New Hampshire
Ben Johnson, Majority Staff Director
Melissa Jung, Minority Staff Director
C O N T E N T S
OPENING STATEMENTS
Page
Hon. Beth Van Duyne.............................................. 1
Hon. Shri Thanedar............................................... 3
WITNESS
Ms. Jennifer Kim, Associate Administrator, Office of Field
Operations, United States Small Business Administration,
Washington, DC................................................. 4
APPENDIX
Prepared Statement:
Ms. Jennifer Kim, Associate Administrator, Office of Field
Operations, United States Small Business Administration,
Washington, DC............................................. 25
Questions for the Record:
None.
Answers for the Record:
None.
Additional Material for the Record:
None.
EXECUTIVE OVERREACH: EXAMINING THE SBA'S ELECTIONEERING EFFORTS WITH
ASSOCIATE ADMINISTRATOR OF OFFICE OF FIELD OPERATIONS, JENNIFER KIM
----------
WEDNESDAY, JULY 24, 2024
House of Representatives,
Committee on Small Business,
Subcommittee on Oversight, Investigations,
and Regulations,
Washington, DC.
The Subcommittee met, pursuant to call, at 10:00 a.m., in
Room 2360, Rayburn House Office Building, Hon. Beth Van Duyne
[chairwoman of the Subcommittee] presiding.
Present: Representatives Van Duyne, Williams, Alford,
Crane, and Thanedar.
Also Present: Representatives Meuser, McClain, and
Scholten.
Chairwoman VAN DUYNE. I now call the Committee on Small
Business to order, and, without objection, the Chair is
authorized to declare a recess of the Committee at any time.
Before we get started, I want to ask unanimous consent to
wave the following Members on for the purpose of asking
questions in today's hearing.
We have two Representatives from the full Committee, Mr.
Dan Meuser from Pennsylvania and Ms. Hillary Scholten from
Michigan. In addition, we have Representative Lisa McClain from
Michigan.
Without objection, so ordered.
I now recognize myself for an opening statement.
Good morning and welcome to today's hearing, which will
focus on the SBA's unlawful involvement in registering voters
in the State of Michigan. We are seriously concerned that these
actions are unlawful and that the SBA is engaging in partisan
activities to the detriment of small business owners.
Since your signature is at the bottom of this agreement
between the SBA and Michigan, Ms. Kim, we look forward to
hearing from you and getting answers for the American people
during our conversation today.
As this Committee has pointed out many times before, the
SBA can't even handle their current responsibilities. We have
heard from the Administrator herself that the SBA does not have
the resources to do what they are statutorily mandated to do,
let alone engage in electioneering.
In fact, we heard from several small businesses, like the
Silver Star Bar in Maybee, Michigan, that the SBA is failing
small business owners.
The Silver Star Bar is not alone. I would like to read a
quote from Dr. Chad Savage on the status of SBA assistance in
Michigan.
Quote, ``As a proud small business owner in Michigan, I
expect the SBA to provide support and guidance to small
businesses. However, instead of focusing on aiding and
assisting small businesses like mine, the Biden-Harris
administration is diverting taxpayer funds toward voter
registration. This misallocation of resources for partisan
purposes is frustrating and undermines the critical support
that we need for small businesses.''
The Small Business Association of Michigan found that 50
percent of small business owners in Michigan report not being
optimistic about their prospects over the next 6 months.
I would like to ask unanimous consent to submit the survey
into the record.
Without objection, so ordered.
A recent CNBC poll found 86 percent of small business
owners feel that they have no voice in policymaking. The SBA is
supposed to be their voice and is failing miserably.
The SBA's sole mission is to support small businesses. It
has no authority to meddle in electioneering. And by entering
into a memorandum of understanding with a battleground State
like Michigan to facilitate voter registration, the SBA has
stepped far beyond its intended role.
This move by the SBA, which they assert is taken under
Executive Order 14019, also raises serious legal questions.
The SBA has tried to convince us that this memorandum,
whenever they started implementing it, will be done in a
nonpartisan manner.
Yet, the Administrator determines where she travels, and
this Committee has found she chooses to visit areas with
overwhelmingly Democrat voters. We have no reason to believe
that this will change.
Moreover, the SBA's recent actions have blurred the line
between advocating for small businesses and serving as a
political arm of the Biden-Harris administration.
We know the SBA has been heavily involved in Michigan. The
Administrator has traveled to Michigan more than any other
State during her tenure. We learned from emails produced by the
Michigan Department of State that Governor Whitmer was involved
in the planning process of this memorandum, and just this week
she was announced as Co-Chair to the Harris for President
campaign.
Further, as noted on the SBA's website, your background,
Ms. Kim, fails to highlight any experience in helping small
businesses but rather highlights your years of experience in,
quote, ``increasing voter registration in communities of color,
as well as promoting youth civic engagement,'' unquote.
For obvious reasons, we have a lot of questions.
I think we can all agree that the federal government's
involvement in State elections goes against constitutional
principles, and the SBA has circumvented established protocols,
further eroding confidence in its impartiality.
For the sake of our job creators, this agency must return
to its core mission to reestablish trust and credibility. We
charge the SBA to realign their efforts with the needs of
American entrepreneurs, addressing concerns such as regulatory
burdens and economic recovery. The future of our nation's small
business depends on it.
Ms. Kim, thank you for joining us today, and we look
forward to the conversation ahead and finding answers to the
many concerns that this Committee has raised about apparent
electioneering.
With that, I yield to our distinguished Ranking Member from
Michigan, Mr. Thanedar.
Mr. THANEDAR. Good morning and thank you, Madam Chairwoman.
Let me begin by stating that I am honored to be appointed
the Ranking Member of this Subcommittee, and I look forward to
working with you.
My hope is that we can turn our focus to the bipartisan
issues that will aid our 33 million small businesses in the
remaining time that we have.
With that said, I am particularly troubled with the focus
of the hearing today.
In April, the majority launched an investigation into SBA's
memorandum of understanding with the Michigan Department of
State to promote voter registration. I think we can all agree
that encouraging people to exercise their right to vote is a
good thing.
The majority has launched an outlandish investigation
resulting in multiple subpoenas of public servants, oversight
letters demanding documents without a real scope from various
offices within SBA and independent stakeholders, the White
House, and many, many others.
I am concerned with the heavy-handedness of this
investigation and the twisting of the facts.
And small businesses are getting the short end of the
stick. Limited SBA resources are being diverted to unreasonable
demands for information from the majority.
Let's set the record straight. The bipartisan National
Voter Registration Act allows States to designate federal
agencies as voter registration agencies.
To that end, SBA and the Michigan Department of State
signed a memorandum of understanding, or MOU, allowing the
Michigan Department of State to create a unique URL to place on
SBA's website to drive online voting registration.
It also permits the Michigan Department of State to
register voters at SBA district office outreach events in
Michigan. The costs to the American taxpayer are minimal, and
despite loud claims to the contrary, resources are not being
diverted from small businesses.
The Committee was briefed by Ms. Jennifer Kim, in which all
this information was shared. SBA provided the majority with
some of the thousands of pages of documents requested.
We have had a hearing where the majority claims were
thoroughly debunked. We have sat through two transcribed
interviews of SBA employees. And yet, no evidence has been
uncovered to support their claims.
It is unsettling, and I joined the Small Business Committee
to share my experience as a scientist and a small business
owner, among other important main street priorities for this
Congress.
I had high hopes for my first term here, real opportunities
to address actual issues affecting everyday Americans alongside
peers across the aisle. That is what normally happens on this
Committee.
But this year has been far from normal. Rather than
focusing on real world issues American small business owners
think about every day--capital access, a strong workforce,
government contracts, and, most importantly, the small business
boom President Biden has brought America in the wake of the
COVID pandemic--we are holding a hearing on a sham
investigation, and it is a shame.
I look forward to hearing from Associate Administrator Kim
with the hope of getting more of the facts in the record and
hopefully put an end to this investigation.
Thank you for being here today.
And I yield back the balance of my time.
Chairwoman VAN DUYNE. Thank you.
It is my privilege today to introduce our witness, Ms.
Jennifer Kim. Ms. Kim is the Associate Administrator of the
Office of Field Operations in the Small Business Administration
at the SBA. Ms. Kim oversees 68 district offices and 10
regional offices throughout the country.
Ms. Kim has over 15 years of experience in advocacy,
including working as State director for the New Jersey Public
Interest Research Group, program director for Everybody Votes,
and deputy national organizing director for Biden for
President.
Ms. Kim holds a bachelor of arts in history from the
University of Michigan and a master of public administration
from Columbia University.
Ms. Kim, thank you for joining us today, and I am looking
forward to today's important conversation.
You are now recognized for 5 minutes.
STATEMENT OF MS. JENNIFER KIM, ASSOCIATE ADMINISTRATOR, OFFICE
OF FIELD OPERATIONS, U.S. SMALL BUSINESS ADMINISTRATION
Ms. KIM. Thank you, Chairwoman.
Chairwoman Van Duyne and Ranking Member Thanedar, I am
honored to appear before this Subcommittee to discuss the work
of the U.S. Small Business Administration's Office of Field
Operations and the implementation of President Biden's
Executive Order 14019.
I assumed the position of Associate Administrator for the
Office of Field Operations with a background in field
organizing and managing field offices. For nearly two decades,
I have worked to advance the public interest in a variety of
nonprofit and political roles, operating at the local, State,
and national level.
Throughout my career, I have worked with stakeholders
spanning the ideological spectrum, from small business groups
to the AARP. For example, during my time directing the New
Jersey Public Interest Research Group, I worked to bring down
the high cost of energy, protect communities from toxic
chemicals, and improve access to healthcare.
In March of 2022, I was appointed to my current position as
Associate Administrator of the Office of Field Operations. In
this role, I oversee 650 staff across our 10 regional and 68
district offices, and this team works tirelessly every day to
connect small businesses to SBA resources.
Most recently, SBA helped enroll more than 167,000 COVID-19
EIDL borrowers in the Hardship Accommodation Program to become
current on their loan payments and assisted more than 33,000
borrowers in securing full or partial PPP forgiveness, thanks
in large part due to the outreach and support provided by the
district offices.
SBA's district offices are at the forefront of supporting
the more than 18 million new small business starts under the
Biden-Harris administration. No matter where you live in the
country, small businesses have an invaluable resource in their
communities by way of their dedicated and hardworking district
office staff.
Turning to the focus of today's hearing, I welcome the
opportunity to share more about SBA's work to implement the
executive order to promote access to voter registration and
voting information for all eligible Americans.
In 2021, President Biden issued this executive order asking
federal agencies to consider ways to ensure all eligible
citizens can freely participate in the electoral process.
And supporting voter registration has long had bipartisan
consensus in Congress. In the National Voter Registration Act
of 1993, also known as the NVRA, Congress found that, quote,
``The right of citizens of the United States to vote is a
fundamental right,'' and that, ``It is the duty of the federal,
state, and local governments to promote the exercise of that
right,'' end quote.
The NVRA required certain State agencies to provide
nonpartisan voter registration opportunities, including at your
local DMV, and expressly authorized the State to request that
federal agencies accept designation to provide similar
nonpartisan voter registration assistance.
SBA's intent to implement this executive order has been
public for several years. SBA informed the House Committee more
than 2 years ago that we planned to partner with the State of
Michigan.
And when I arrived in 2022, the Office of Field Operations
and Office of General Counsel were already coordinating with
the Michigan Department of State, MDOS, to finalize operational
and legal details.
In March of this year, SBA announced that we had completed
a memorandum of understanding with MDOS.
SBA has been transparent in responding to the Committee's
requests for information from the outset. Administrator Guzman
testified about this initiative in March and in a previous
hearing. SBA has written four formal responses to Chairman
Williams on this issue, including sharing the MOU and emails
between SBA officials in the State of Michigan.
And on May 3, earlier this year, I briefed the Committee
staff regarding the MOU, detailing the ways in which SBA
intends to participate.
As previously communicated, SBA's involvement is limited to
the following.
Number one, a website link. SBA plans to provide a link to
the Michigan Department of State online voter registration
center on SBA's Michigan district office website and other SBA
materials. That link is not yet in use.
And two, small business events. SBA may invite Michigan
Department of State personnel to register voters at small
business resource fairs or similar events. They have not yet
joined any SBA events to do so.
The MOU is also very clear about the agency's participation
in the safeguards that prevent SBA employees from partisan
activity. Section X of the MOU includes the following: Makes
clear that SBA employees are prohibited from seeking to
influence an applicant's political preference, displaying any
political preference or party allegiance.
And I hope that the Committee will recognize this work for
what it is--an effort to provide small businesses with an
additional resource and to encourage more people to register to
vote and be active participants in our democracy.
Congress authorized and encouraged this important work more
than 30 years ago through the NVRA, and SBA is proud to do its
part.
I thank the Committee for your partnership with our
district offices, and I look forward to answering your
questions.
Chairwoman VAN DUYNE. Great. Thank you very much.
The Chair now recognizes Chairman Williams for 5 minutes
for his opening statement.
Mr. WILLIAMS. Good morning and thank you for being here
today. I want to thank my fellow Texan, Chairman Van Duyne, for
holding today's Subcommittee on Oversight and Investigations
hearing on the SBA's electioneering efforts.
To start off, I would like to thank Ms. Kim for joining us
again, and our Members have a lot of questions regarding the
SBA's activities and appreciate you coming before us to give us
the answers we have been seeking.
Now, to put this simply, the SBA's voter registration
scheme is a serious problem that is made even worse by the fact
that we are heading into a Presidential election.
Now, while Main Street America is facing a whole host of
problems, it is extremely problematic that the SBA spent over a
year drafting this agreement to register voters in Democrat
strongholds. Now, it is truly unfortunate to feel a federal
agency blatantly lose interest in their core mission to focus
on an upcoming election.
The Committee has been investigating these electioneering
efforts for some time now, and the SBA has stonewalled us at
every single turn.
To Ms. Kim, I would like to let you know we would rather
work with you than against you, but it is a two-way street. You
are the individual that signed the MOU with the State of
Michigan and, therefore, you are the individual that must
answer for it. So I sincerely hope that you can answer our
questions today.
We have a duty to taxpayers to bring transparency to this
issue, and we intend to fulfill that obligation. So I look
forward to today's conversations.
And I yield my time back.
Chairwoman VAN DUYNE. Thank you very much.
We will now move to the Member questions under the 5-minute
rule, and I recognize myself for 5 minutes.
Ms. Kim, are you aware of the memorandum of understanding
between the Michigan Department of State and the SBA?
Ms. KIM. Yes, I am aware of the MOU.
Chairwoman VAN DUYNE. And you read it?
Ms. KIM. Yes.
Chairwoman VAN DUYNE. Did you help negotiate it?
Ms. KIM. I didn't--I am not a lawyer, so I did not
negotiate the legal details, but I did----
Chairwoman VAN DUYNE. No, but did you negotiate the pulp of
the MOU?
Ms. KIM. I weighed in on recommending that we utilize the
website to primarily be the way that we refer people to voter
registration.
Chairwoman VAN DUYNE. Okay. And then--and you signed it?
Ms. KIM. Yes, I did.
Chairwoman VAN DUYNE. So are you in charge of implementing
the MOU?
Ms. KIM. Yes, the Office of Field Operations is, which is
the department that I oversee.
Chairwoman VAN DUYNE. Okay. So what is the effective date
of the MOU?
Ms. KIM. I will admit I can't remember the exact date, but
I believe we signed it in mid-March.
Chairwoman VAN DUYNE. So to be clear, it is in effect right
now?
Ms. KIM. Yes, the MOU has been completed.
Chairwoman VAN DUYNE. Because when the Administrator was
here, my friends on the other side of the aisle insisted that
this MOU was not in effect. But that isn't true because it was
in effect the day that you signed it.
Ms. KIM. It is in effect, but we haven't actually done any
of the activities that are included in the MOU yet.
Chairwoman VAN DUYNE. So you don't have a--it wasn't
required that you had a unique URL to actually register voters?
Ms. KIM. The website does exist. We haven't put it anywhere
yet.
Chairwoman VAN DUYNE. But the website is up and running?
Ms. KIM. Well, it is just a link to the Michigan voter
registration website, which is our URL.
Chairwoman VAN DUYNE. So it is live there right now, the
link?
Ms. KIM. The link exists. We, SBA, have not posted that
link anywhere for anybody to see.
Chairwoman VAN DUYNE. So it is not on your website right
now for us to be able to find it?
Ms. KIM. No.
Chairwoman VAN DUYNE. So if you go right now to
michigan.gov/ussba, you can't find it?
Ms. KIM. That link is the link that we are going to post on
our website, but we haven't posted that link anywhere yet.
Chairwoman VAN DUYNE. But the link right now is live?
Ms. KIM. The link, yeah, the link is there.
Chairwoman VAN DUYNE. So have you registered any voters
through there?
Ms. KIM. No.
Chairwoman VAN DUYNE. Okay. So when do you expect voters to
be able to use the URL?
Ms. KIM. Hopefully soon, Congresswoman.
Chairwoman VAN DUYNE. You don't know that?
Ms. KIM. Oh, we are working on implementing it, all parts
of the MOU. So hopefully we will give you an update when the
link is up.
Chairwoman VAN DUYNE. Okay. So according to the MOU, when
was the link supposed to be up?
Ms. KIM. We didn't put a date in the MOU for when the link
would go live. So there wasn't a specific date mentioned.
Chairwoman VAN DUYNE. So the MOU states that the Michigan
Department of State will provide SBA weekly updates. Are you
getting those updates?
Ms. KIM. No. Since we haven't started using the website,
there is no updates to be----
Chairwoman VAN DUYNE. So the MOU went into effect March 18
when you signed it, but even if--according to the agreement,
you were supposed to be getting updates, but you haven't gotten
any updates?
Ms. KIM. Well, the updates are associated to the website,
which, as I said, we haven't put anywhere yet.
Chairwoman VAN DUYNE. So it has been March, and it is now
April, May, June, July. So what are you all waiting on?
Ms. KIM. I wouldn't say we are waiting, Chairwoman. We are
just doing regular course of business. And it is an important
issue for us, but it is not our top priority. So it is not
something that I am looking at every day.
Chairwoman VAN DUYNE. So what plans of actions does the SBA
actually plan to implement the MOU?
Ms. KIM. You know, I think our strategy with the MOU is
actually working to just incorporate the link and activities
that we would already be doing on a regular business day at the
SBA.
So the idea would be that we would put the link on our
Michigan district office website. So if you are going to look
for resources in Michigan, it would be there, and you could
choose to go to it or not. And then----
Chairwoman VAN DUYNE. So all this is just creating a link
and sticking it on the website? That is all you all are doing?
Ms. KIM. That, and we can invite the Michigan Department of
State staff to come table at our events. Many members of the
community----
Chairwoman VAN DUYNE. Okay. So it is more than just the
URL It is also having folks come to events. Okay.
Ms. KIM. Yes. So I am sure you are familiar with we do any
number of small business resource fairs, matchmaking events,
other activities where we invite resource partners and other
local, State, and federal government partners to come table. So
it would be basically the same thing. The Michigan Department
of State would be welcome to table at those events.
Chairwoman VAN DUYNE. Gotcha. Okay.
So this Committee has been requesting documents related to
this MOU since March 20 when the Administrator was testifying
before this Committee, and since then, we have sent four
letters reiterating our request for documents, yet the SBA has
failed to substantially produce documents.
The first letter was sent on April 4 requesting documents
by April 18. The SBA didn't send any documents by the deadline.
The second letter was sent on April 18 requesting
interviews with two SBA officials related to this
investigation. The SBA failed to make them available and forced
us to issue subpoenas for their testimony.
The third letter was sent on May 16, and this time the
Senate signed on as well, requested documents by May 30, and,
to date, we have not received any of those documents.
The fourth letter was just sent last Monday, on July 15,
which reiterated all of our outstanding requests. The deadline
for that request is Monday, 5 days from now. Will we be able to
get the documents by then?
Ms. KIM. My job is to oversee field offices. I don't deal
with the document requests. I know that I--document requests
have been made of me, and I have submitted them to the team
that is working hard to prepare them for the Committee.
Chairwoman VAN DUYNE. So you have submitted them. They just
have not forwarded them to us, but you have been in full
compliance with responding?
Ms. KIM. I reviewed about 200 pages of my own documents
that I sent over to the Committee. I understand there is
thousands more pages that they are reviewing.
Chairwoman VAN DUYNE. You sent them to the Committee or you
sent them----
Ms. KIM. Oh, excuse me, to our staff that is working to
prepare them for the Committee.
Chairwoman VAN DUYNE. Okay. So the staff actually has the
documents, they just haven't sent them to us.
Ms. KIM. Well, they have mine. I don't know about the
others.
Chairwoman VAN DUYNE. Okay.
So it just leads to the question, like, what is going on at
the SBA that we haven't received--especially if you have done
your job and you have sent over the documents--why we haven't
gotten them yet?
Ms. KIM. Oh, well, as I said, I am not in charge of getting
the documents to the Committee, but I would be happy to check
with them----
Chairwoman VAN DUYNE. Okay.
Ms. KIM.--and have them do an update.
Chairwoman VAN DUYNE. We are just curious what is going on
because we have had a number--we have had the Administrator, we
have had the Deputy Administrator, we have had you, and nobody
can seem to answer the question. It is always somebody else
that is supposed to get us the documents.
Ms. KIM. Well, I am happy to answer any questions while I
am here, Chairwoman, yeah.
Chairwoman VAN DUYNE. So the Chairman, along with the
Michigan delegation, sent a letter to the Michigan secretary of
state requesting documents about their involvement in this MOU,
and they responded a day early with more than 200 pages of
requested communications. I am just curious what the delay was,
but you don't know the answer to that.
Ms. KIM. Sorry. No, I don't.
Chairwoman VAN DUYNE. All right.
Well, my time is up. So I now recognize the Ranking Member
for 5 minutes of questions.
Mr. THANEDAR. Thank you, Chairwoman.
And thank you, Ms. Kim, for being here and for your
testimony.
Let's begin by sifting through the partisan rhetoric and
focus on the facts.
Under the National Voter Registration Act of 1993, State
governments may designate additional agencies and offices,
including federal and nongovernmental offices, as voter
registration agencies. Is that correct?
Ms. KIM. Yes.
Mr. THANEDAR. Okay.
On March 7, 2021, President Biden signed an executive order
directing federal agencies to evaluate ways to encourage voter
registration. And pursuant to that order, SBA signed an MOU
with the Department of State to promote voter registration in
Michigan.
Is that correct?
Ms. KIM. Yes, I believe so.
Mr. THANEDAR. What activities are allowed under this
agreement?
Ms. KIM. I believe it designates what we are doing to
implement the executive order, which is working with States to
get designation as voter registration agencies.
Mr. THANEDAR. Will SBA employees be conducting these voter
registration efforts?
Ms. KIM. They will be referring people to the voter
registration website and working with Michigan Department of
State staff.
Mr. THANEDAR. Does the MOU comply with the National Voter
Registration Act and ensure all activities will be nonpartisan?
Ms. KIM. Yes. We are running a nonpartisan voter
registration.
Mr. THANEDAR. Okay.
What will be the cost of these activities?
Ms. KIM. There is no additional costs. We are not hiring
any additional staff or anything like that. Again, we are just
trying to incorporate it into things that we are already doing,
like referring people to any number of resource websites.
Mr. THANEDAR. So let's be clear. Despite the rhetoric you
are hearing today, the Biden administration is not violating
the laws and SBA is not misusing taxpayer dollars. Is that
correct?
Ms. KIM. That is correct.
Mr. THANEDAR. Okay.
Now, over the course of the past few months, false claims
have been made that SBA has deviated from its mission and is
choosing to devote taxpayer dollars to registering voters in a
battleground State rather than helping small businesses survive
this difficult economic climate. Is there any truth to that
statement?
Ms. KIM. Our core mission to help support small businesses
remains the same, and this program is just offering another
resource to small business owners.
Mr. THANEDAR. And it looks like it doesn't take much of
your time.
Ms. KIM. The actual program, no, it doesn't.
Mr. THANEDAR. All right. Thank you.
And can you share what SBA has accomplished through its
field staff operations to help small businesses throughout the
country? And tell us more about the number of small businesses
you are reaching.
Ms. KIM. Thank you for the question.
You know, I think the field offices--obviously, it is my
job to work with them--but I think they are one of the most
valuable resources that we have in federal government. I think
their value was never more obvious during the pandemic when
they really rose to the occasion to assist millions of small
businesses across the country, and they asked for no credit for
that.
But they worked extra hours. They were answering phone
calls at 11 o'clock at night, midnight, working on the
weekends, really helping desperate small businesses, and I know
working in coordination with many of the offices here. And
every day they work really tirelessly, and I feel very proud
and fortunate to work with them at this agency.
Mr. THANEDAR. Thank you. Thank you, Ms. Kim.
And despite efforts by my Democratic colleagues to set the
record straight at the last hearing and make clear the MOU had
not been implemented, Ms. Van Duyne dismissed those efforts and
announced the URL link publicly.
Did you share this link with the Committee staff during a
bipartisan briefing and let them know that it was not on SBA's
website?
Ms. KIM. Yes, I briefed the Committee with that information
and offered the URL so they could look at it themselves.
Mr. THANEDAR. Okay. Therefore, no one visiting SBA's
website could have used it, correct?
Ms. KIM. Internally, there was a set of staff that had it.
Obviously, we are working to implement it. But, again, we
haven't posted it publicly anywhere yet.
Mr. THANEDAR. So the public could not have used it?
Ms. KIM. Correct, not until then.
Mr. THANEDAR. Interestingly, after Chairwoman Van Duyne
published the link, it was visited 190 times with only 8
visits, at most, from Michigan. Clearly, the Republicans are
doing more to raise awareness about the voter registration
opportunities than SBA, it looks like. Is that true?
Ms. KIM. Yes. I have heard there was a spike in traffic
after the Chairwoman announced the website.
Mr. THANEDAR. So it looks like not much time is spent by
the employees. The link is not on the website. You continue to
serve the small businesses. We have more small businesses
opening up than ever before under this administration. Is that
not true?
Ms. KIM. Yes, there has been record small business growth
under this administration. That is correct.
Mr. THANEDAR. Thank you so much.
My time is up, and I yield back.
Chairwoman VAN DUYNE. Thank you.
I now recognize Representative Alford from Missouri for 5
minutes.
Mr. ALFORD. Well, thank you, Madam Chair, for holding this
important hearing today.
And thank you, Ranking Member Thanedar, as well.
The Small Business Administration was created in 1953 by
President Eisenhower with the mission to aid, counsel, assist,
and protect the interests of small business concerns, preserve
free competitive enterprise, and maintain and strengthen the
overall economy of our nation.
However, the Biden-Harris administration is not satisfied
with using this agency for its statutory purpose. Instead,
through a series of executive overreach, they have attempted to
turn the SBA into an adjunct campaign headquarters.
[Chart.]
We have a chart here I want to show you. This chart shows a
timeline of how the Biden-Harris administration has illegally
used the SBA to register voters in the key swing State of
Michigan.
In March of 2021, President Biden signed the Executive
Order 140-19, the Executive Order on Promoting Access to
Voting. This EO directed the federal government to use all of
its resources to work to register Democrat voters.
In December of 2021, the SBA reached out to the Michigan
Department of State to enter into negotiations to work together
on voter registration.
In April of 2022, the SBA hired Jennifer Kim, a career
progressive Democrat campaign hand, as Associate Administrator
for Outreach.
Finally, in March of 2024, the SBA and Michigan secretary
of state announced their memorandum of understanding on voter
registration.
To be quite frank, I am disgusted by the fact that this SBA
has used our taxpayer dollars to become an adjunct arm of the
Democrat National Committee.
It is abhorrent behavior that not only runs contrary to the
mission of the SBA but is an illegal misuse of taxpayer money
and a direct slap in the face to the hardworking small business
owners across this great nation, including the Fourth
Congressional District of the great State of Missouri.
The SBA needs to return to its core mission of being the
voice of small business. Main street is desperate for a
champion, Ms. Kim, not for the SBA to become the DNC.
Our next chart, please.
[Chart.]
Associate Administrator Kim, this graphic shows where you
were working during every Presidential election since you
joined the workforce.
In 2008, you were the organizing director at Fair Share,
Inc., a left-wing nonprofit that works to elect Democrats in
Ohio.
In 2012, you were the Colorado State director at the
Community Voters Project, a Democrat voter registration
nonprofit in Colorado.
In 2016, you were the pod lead deputy training director at
the Hillary for America in Florida.
In 2020, you were deputy national organizing director at
Biden for President.
Ms. Kim, you are now Associate Administrator, Associate
Administrator for the Small Business Administration. It is
certainly interesting that this will be the first time in your
adult life that you will ostensibly not be working to elect a
Democrat nominee in a swing State.
Associate Administrator Kim, can you please share with the
Committee how 15 years of campaigning to elect Democrats gives
you the experience necessary to be an Associate Administrator
at the SBA? How did you get this job? Have you ever owned a
small business in your life?
Ms. KIM. Well, I appreciate the opportunity to share my
background, Congressman, and if you had asked, I would have
sent you a better picture.
But I actually spent most of my career working on
nonpartisan campaigns. So for----
Mr. ALFORD. But you have never owned a small business?
Ms. KIM. I have worked in a small business. I have never
owned a small business.
Mr. ALFORD. I don't think you are qualified to have this
job.
Looking at your career timeline and trajectory, it is clear
that your entire life is dedicated to furthering the mission of
the Democrat Party.
How could anyone possibly believe that you are faithfully
carrying out the mission of the SBA?
Ms. KIM. My job is to oversee the field offices. So I have
over 18 years of experience running field offices, the majority
of which are actually running nonpartisan campaigns.
Mr. ALFORD. Under oath, Ms. Kim, can you honestly attest
that you are not using your role at the SBA to engage in
electioneering or to register voters for the Democrat Party?
Ms. KIM. I am definitely not using my position for
electioneering. That would be inaccurate, sir.
Mr. ALFORD. Well, I would say this. This is disgusting to
the American people. We have caught you guys red-handed. I
don't think you are qualified to be dogcatcher. I was happy to
submit an amendment to the Financial Services and General
Governance appropriation bill to change your salary to $1 under
the Holman rule.
Associate Administrator Kim, I am disappointed in you. I am
disappointed in the SBA. Let's get back to Main Street America.
And thank you. I yield back.
Chairwoman VAN DUYNE. Thank you.
I now recognize Representative Scholten from Michigan for 5
minutes.
Ms. SCHOLTEN. Thank you so much, Madam Chair.
Thank you to our Ranking Member.
And thank you so much, Ms. Kim, for being here today.
When I first heard about this hearing, I got really
excited, because I thought we were maybe going to have an
oversight hearing about why it is taking the SBA so long to
comply with the VRA, not to put you on the hot seat for another
reason.
But can you provide the legal authority for why the SBA
might have engaged in this MOU?
Ms. KIM. Thank you for the question, Congresswoman.
I believe Congress gave us the authority in the 1993
National Voter Registration Act.
Ms. SCHOLTEN. Thank you. Thank you so much.
And I want to clarify a couple points as well. Some of your
actions have been characterized as stonewalling, blockading. We
sat through a previous hearing where we had a number of
witnesses; none of them, unfortunately, were from the SBA. I am
glad you are here today to provide some answers. I think that
is really important.
Obviously, if the SBA were pivoting its entire mission to
electioneering, that would be of deep, deep concern.
So my first question is, were you invited to the past
hearing?
Ms. KIM. No, I was not.
Ms. SCHOLTEN. You were not invited to testify to the last
hearing?
Ms. KIM. No.
Ms. SCHOLTEN. And you are here today under a subpoena or--
--
Ms. KIM. No. I am a regular----
Ms. SCHOLTEN. You voluntarily came----
Ms. KIM. Yes.
Ms. SCHOLTEN.--when you were asked the first time.
Ms. KIM. Yes.
Ms. SCHOLTEN. You just came on your own. Oh, that is
wonderful. Thank you so much for your willingness to show up
today.
There was some prior confusion as well about how active
this MOU is. We understand it has been signed, but have actions
such as publishing and making the website active happened yet?
Ms. KIM. No. That is correct. The MOU has been signed, but
we have not published the website anywhere yet.
Ms. SCHOLTEN. Okay. So I heard Ms. Van Duyne clarifying
some of that as well.
And it has taken 6 months, is that right, since--I think
she counted it out. It has been 6 months----
Ms. KIM. Yes.
Ms. SCHOLTEN.--since it was signed.
So would you say, given that 6-month timeline, it is
accurate to say that the SBA has completely diverted its
mission now to--it doesn't take 6 months to get a website up
and running, does it?
Ms. KIM. No. That is correct.
Ms. SCHOLTEN. And why do you think it has taken so long?
What else have you been working on?
Ms. KIM. Well, we have just been doing our regular course
of business, everything in my department anyway, to help
support the field offices, whether it is helping them with
their budgets or outreach activity.
So it is something we are working on. We hope to have it
completed soon. But as I said, it is not something we are
working on every day.
Ms. SCHOLTEN. Yeah. So giving you another opportunity to
say even just a little bit more about some of the things you
have been working on in those critical 6 months.
Your job is as a field administrator, right? You oversee
the field offices.
Ms. KIM. Uh-huh.
Ms. SCHOLTEN. So going out into the field, talking to
people. Is that only in the State of Michigan?
Ms. KIM. No. We have 68 district offices all over the
country.
Ms. SCHOLTEN. Okay. Excellent.
And I want to give you an opportunity just to share a
little bit more about your background and experience, having
worked in a small business before, and also the work that you
do in particular is very unique to the office.
Talk a little bit about how some of your background in
those nonpartisan campaigns doing field organizing has prepared
you to do the work of field equipment for the SBA.
Ms. KIM. Yes. Thank you.
Yeah, I started working on local campaigns, which mostly
meant that I was working in local communities, working to build
relationships with stakeholders, both government and non, and
eventually kind of managed statewide organizing programs, and
then nationally managed field offices across the country.
So that is my job. And I actually find the similarities
between some of the issue campaigns that I worked on and the
challenges of the field there refreshingly similar to the
challenges of the field offices now. There is a lot of similar,
``Oh, we are not getting the information from headquarters fast
enough,'' or, ``We didn't get the coordination right,'' or,
``We need more budget in our offices,'' things like that.
So my experience is largely in that and also in outreach,
which is really one of the primary roles of the field offices,
is to reach as many small businesses in their communities as
possible.
Ms. SCHOLTEN. One of the things I hear from small business
owners across west Michigan is that they know, in theory, that
there are a lot of great opportunities out there, but they lack
that sort of connection between themselves and the larger SBA
headquarters.
We know that field offices and under your leadership have
continued to make that critical connection out in the field,
and the data speaks for itself. Small businesses have continued
to grow exponentially in the last 4 years.
And it is clear that your leadership has not been
completely diverted to electioneering but is doing the critical
work of organizing in the field that we need.
Chairwoman VAN DUYNE. The lady's time has expired.
Ms. SCHOLTEN. Thank you.
Chairwoman VAN DUYNE. So votes have been called, and the
Committee stands in recess subject to the call of the Chair.
[Recess.]
Chairwoman VAN DUYNE. The Committee will now come to order.
We will continue questions under the 5-minute rule.
And the Chair now recognizes Representative Crane from the
great State of Arizona for 5 minutes.
Mr. CRANE. Thank you so much for holding this hearing
today.
Appreciate you coming by, Ms. Kim.
Your bio on the SBA website says that you started your
career as a stakeholder engagement specialist serving as a
campus organizer and that you promoted renewable energy
standards, affordable higher education and healthcare and
toxic-free communities.
As a former small business owner, I am not sure how someone
with that background would have any understanding of the needs
of small businesses.
Your bio also mentions that you have dedicated many years
to increasing voter registration in communities of color, as
well as promoting youth civic engagement.
When you were appointed to the SBA by President Biden in
2022, what experience did you have assisting small businesses?
Ms. KIM. Thanks for the question, Congressman.
So my background and my job is running field offices. In my
experience running field offices and field campaigns, I have
worked with many small business owners on many of the issues
that you mentioned, and I have also worked with small
business--sorry, worked in small businesses as well.
Also, as part of my background, as was mentioned, I have a
master's in public administration, which is a program that is
specifically designed to support people that are managing
policy and programs in federal, state, and local government,
which is something that I do as part of my job.
Mr. CRANE. Okay. How is your background in voter
registration efforts helpful to small business owners?
Ms. KIM. When I did voter registration work, I was running
field offices that were doing voter registration. So my job is
to manage the field offices now. So there are a lot of
similarities, actually, in making sure that the offices have
the support that they need to do the outreach.
Essentially, the field offices, their job is to serve small
businesses, and my job is to make sure the field offices have
what they need to do that.
Mr. CRANE. Okay. So just to summarize, you have no
experience applicable to small business, but you do have a
background in voter outreach, and you were an organizer for
President Biden's 2020 campaign. Is that correct?
Ms. KIM. I did work on President Biden's campaign. As I
said, I have worked with small businesses, and my background in
the field I think is why I was hired to manage the field
offices.
Mr. CRANE. Why did you decide on Michigan for this voter
registration MOU?
Ms. KIM. I started at the agency in 2022, and the work and
the partnership with the State of Michigan already had begun
before I got here.
Mr. CRANE. Okay. But you guys are clearly aware that
Michigan is a swing State, right, in this upcoming election?
Ms. KIM. Swing State isn't something we take into
consideration in our work. But, yes, I am aware that Michigan
is a swing State.
Mr. CRANE. I highly doubt that.
All right. You and others at the SBA have stated that this
MOU will be implemented in a nonpartisan manner. Is it likely
that you will keep your job if a Republican administration is
elected?
Ms. KIM. Since I am a political appointee of this
administration, probably not.
Mr. CRANE. Okay.
Have you had any events at all, any cities, counties that
have a majority of Republican voters? And if so, can you
provide those for the Committee?
Ms. KIM. Have we had any events in any cities that have a
Republican majority?
Mr. CRANE. Republican majority, that have a majority of
Republican voters.
Ms. KIM. I mean, we hold events all over the country in all
of our 68 districts, so I would assume yes.
Mr. CRANE. Can you provide us with or can you even give us
one county or city that has a larger population of Republican
voters?
Ms. KIM. Again, I don't keep track of every single
individual event that we do.
Mr. CRANE. I am not asking you to keep track of every
single----
Ms. KIM. Yeah.
Mr. CRANE. I am asking you, can you give us one? Because
clearly you understand what our concern is.
Our concern is that what you guys are doing is that you
guys are going out under the umbrella of the SBA, and then you
are bringing in State officials to register voters in Democrat-
run cities and counties. That is, obviously, what is going on
here.
So can you even give us one example of a city or a county
in which you guys are even trying to make it look like that
this is bipartisan and you guys don't really care about the
demographic?
Ms. KIM. Again, we run programs everywhere. I know, for
example, we are running a T.H.R.I.VE. program, which is one of
our small business programs, in Lebanon County, which is in
Congressman Meuser's district.
Mr. CRANE. Okay. What is the registration there? Do you
know?
Ms. KIM. No, I don't track registration rates as part of my
job.
Mr. CRANE. Okay.
All right. Thank you. I yield back.
Chairwoman VAN DUYNE. Thank you very much.
The Chair now recognizes Representative Meuser from
Pennsylvania for 5 minutes.
Mr. MEUSER. Thank you, Madam Chairwoman.
So thank you for being with us, Ms. Kim.
So you have extensive background in voter registration. It
is even on the website that that is mainly what you have done.
You have engaged in grass roots on campuses. You have worked
for Clinton. You have worked for Senator Booker, the Biden
campaign, as an organizer.
You came on board with minimal small business background,
if any. You created an MOU to register voters in the State of
Michigan. A fellow by the name of Tyler Robinson admitted it on
video, on camera, on audio.
Arthur Plews, when asked about this, decided to lawyer up,
and we needed to basically get a subpoena for him to answer
some questions.
The Administrator did not provide the correspondence I
asked for, kind of went into hiding, and has spent twice as
much time in Michigan as any other State.
So this is why we think and believe that you are involved
in voter registration, because you have created the plan to do
it. And then you say: Well, I created the plan but I never
executed the plan. And you said that you haven't used
resources.
How many resources and time did you--and I am not sure what
is so funny, but that is okay.
How much time did you spend developing the plan that
apparently was never facilitated?
Ms. KIM. Thanks for your question.
Sorry. I wasn't laughing. There is a photographer----
Mr. MEUSER. I don't care.
Ms. KIM.--that just shot up in front of me, so I was a
little startled.
To answer your question about the time developing the plan,
so, again, the work on the implementation of the executive
order had started before I got to the agency. It started in
2021. I started in March of 2022, so it just continued.
I, as mentioned previously, it is not something I work on
every day. I did because of my voter----
Mr. MEUSER. All right. So you spent a lot of time working
on the plan, not necessarily executing it, on the taxpayers'
dollars. So you are working on voter registration initiatives
that you claim you have not executed, but you have spent
taxpayer dollars doing so.
Okay. How much time do you spend in Michigan?
Ms. KIM. Me personally?
Mr. MEUSER. Yeah.
Ms. KIM. I visited the district office once in Michigan
since I started on this job.
Mr. MEUSER. Just once?
Ms. KIM. Yes.
Mr. MEUSER. Okay. Can we get a calendar? Do you provide a
calendar, we can take a look at it and see where you spend your
time?
Because we are very fearful that, as we have oversight,
that taxpayer dollars are being misused and are being used, we
think potentially illegally, to register voters, whether it is
Democrat or Republican. It is entirely wrong, and we are going
to do our best to get to the bottom of it.
So along with yourself, how many others in the SBA have you
talked with as you are developing the plan for voter
registration? How many others have you been training as you
visit the various SBA sites?
Ms. KIM. Well, we haven't trained anybody on this
initiative yet, so----
Mr. MEUSER. Completely solo? Just completely on your own?
Ms. KIM. We----
Mr. MEUSER. Do you have an assistant?
Ms. KIM. We haven't trained anybody yet because we haven't
implemented the MOU, although the MOU is completed. So----
Mr. MEUSER. Not just the MOU.
Look, you are 1 of 12 Associate Administrators out of 2,822
people. You have a very high-level position at the SBA. You
must have an assistant. You must have someone that helps you
put this and organize all of this.
Ms. KIM. The work of crafting the MOU----
Mr. MEUSER. How many people report to you?
Ms. KIM. Around 650.
Mr. MEUSER. Okay. Direct reports, 650?
Ms. KIM. Oh, not all directly reporting to me, no.
Mr. MEUSER. Well, that is what I asked.
Ms. KIM. Oh. Well, there is about 12, I guess.
Mr. MEUSER. So you just showed us how little you know about
business. You said 650 people report to you. That is just
sophomoric at best. And it is just a shame that the dollars are
being used in this manner, and it is unacceptable. It is
absolutely unacceptable.
And you know it. Okay? Maybe that is why the smile is
there, because you know it.
What was the purpose of the MOU?
Ms. KIM. The MOU is to implement the executive order and to
form a partnership with the State of Michigan so that we could
provide a website to small business owners who choose to
register to vote and invite Michigan Department of State staff
to our table events.
Mr. MEUSER. Okay. Is that anywhere within the scope of the
SBA to set up a link for businesses--of your choice, by the
way. And, who knows, maybe a business that is trying to get a
loan from the SBA and says, ``Hmm, they are part of the Biden
administration. They are Democrats. Maybe it would be a good
idea for me to register and vote as a Democrat so I can get
that loan.''
Do you understand how insidious this looks, and perhaps is,
and we believe is?
I yield back, Chairwoman.
Chairwoman VAN DUYNE. Thank you very much.
The Chair now recognizes Representative McClain from
Michigan from 5 minutes.
Mrs. MCCLAIN. Thank you for being here, Ms. Kim. I
appreciate it.
I am from the great State of Michigan and many of our--my
constituents are very concerned with transparency and integrity
with the State of Michigan.
Real quickly, what is the mission of the SBA? What is your
mission statement?
Ms. KIM. We are here to support small businesses, ma'am.
Mrs. MCCLAIN. Here to support small businesses. Wonderful.
Have you, yourself, ever ran a small business, owned a
small business?
Ms. KIM. I have worked in small businesses. I have not
owned a small business.
Mrs. MCCLAIN. Okay. Thank you.
And what qualifications do you have, I was a little vague
on that, as a small business owner?
Ms. KIM. Well, my job is to oversee our 10 regional and 68
district offices, and I have overseen field offices for the
majority of my career.
Mrs. MCCLAIN. How does that correlate with running and
helping people get a small business loan?
Ms. KIM. Well, my job is to support the field offices. My
job is not to run a small business.
Mrs. MCCLAIN. Obviously. Obviously.
Ms. KIM. Yeah.
Mrs. MCCLAIN. Do you think it would be helpful if you ran a
small business to understand what it is like? I mean, I am not
a doctor, nor do I play one on TV, but I don't fake it.
Ms. KIM. Well, I did work in a small business for 4 years,
Congresswoman.
Mrs. MCCLAIN. Okay.
Ms. KIM. And I think it was a small business run by a
family, a family-owned business, and I definitely got a lot of
experience----
Mrs. MCCLAIN. So that qualifies you to be in charge?
Ms. KIM. I think it is my 18 years of running field offices
that qualifies me to run the field offices.
Mrs. MCCLAIN. I would agree with you. Running the field
offices is fantastic, very similar to running the field office
for voter registrations.
So I want to pick up on one other thing. Is there anywhere
in the SBA's mission that talks about voter registration being
part of that mission?
Ms. KIM. Not specifically, no.
Mrs. MCCLAIN. Not specifically. Thank you.
Well, my colleague, Eli Crane asked you a question about
where the programs were run past, right? And I think, if I can
quote, ``We ran programs everywhere.'' Was that your answer?
Ms. KIM. I can't remember exactly what I said, but I think
I indicated we run programs across all of our 68 districts.
Yeah.
Mrs. MCCLAIN. Okay. Can we take a look at Michigan, since
this is what we are talking about?
Okay. Just--these are facts. So since you don't know where
they are at, I happen to.
[Map.]
These are the programs that have been run by the SBA in
Michigan, right? I don't know if you can see that. But all of
these programs here have been run in Michigan, southeastern,
lower. You see these? Make sense?
Ms. KIM. Well, I can't exactly see it, but I was, I
believe, shown this map when I briefed the Committee staff in
May.
Mrs. MCCLAIN. Okay. Any idea what demographic, political
party-wise, these represent?
Ms. KIM. I am not tracking that. And I am not clear if I--
--
Mrs. MCCLAIN. I am, so let me help you. They are Democrat,
right?
Interestingly enough, how many--just out of curiosity--in
the non-Democratic regions in the State of Michigan that you
have actually done, how many Republican areas of your
department, how many events have you run to open small
businesses in non-Democratic areas?
Ms. KIM. Well, there are a couple of things I would offer
to answer that question. One is that----
Mrs. MCCLAIN. I am looking for a number in Michigan, and if
you don't know it, I will accept an ``I don't know.''
Ms. KIM. Well, I clarified with the Committee staff that
those events on that map are not all SBA-run events, I think. I
am not sure because I didn't see the list from where the
Committee got them from.
Mrs. MCCLAIN. Well, here is the beauty of it. I realize you
are not sure. The beauty of it is I am actually sure. So let me
help you, right?
As a small business owner, that when I come to testify, I
would think you would know your data, but, again, that is
crazy.
Notice any in this region up here?
Ms. KIM. I cannot see the map that clearly, but I don't see
it, but----
Mrs. MCCLAIN. Maybe I can help.
Ms. KIM. Yeah.
Mrs. MCCLAIN. See this green thing here? Can you see green?
Ms. KIM. I see green, yes.
Mrs. MCCLAIN. Bingo. That is one. One Republican area. One.
Isn't that ironic to you, or is that just coincidental?
Ms. KIM. I don't manage where the district offices do their
events specifically. District directors have the leeway----
Mrs. MCCLAIN. What do you manage? Voter registration in
Democratic areas?
Ms. KIM. We are, as part of implementing the executive
order, implementing a nonpartisan resource for small
businesses.
Mrs. MCCLAIN. You know what I call? You know it is not
nonpartisan because if it--does this look nonpartisan to you?
Just share with me, does that look nonpartisan? Democrat.
Republican.
Now, I understand data because I have run a small business.
Does that look nonpartisan to you?
Ms. KIM. Again, I think I tried to clarify with the
Committee----
Mrs. MCCLAIN. I am asking a question.
Ms. KIM.--that does not actually represent all of the SBA's
work.
Mrs. MCCLAIN. Does this look nonpartisan to you? You are a
smart woman. I mean, my goodness gracious.
Dan, what is she in charge of, 600 people?
I think you can answer a question. Does this look
nonpartisan to you?
Ms. KIM. Again, I don't think that map represents all of
SBA's activities in the State of Michigan.
Mrs. MCCLAIN. Okay, then I will accept your map. Do you
have one?
Ms. KIM. No, I didn't come with a map.
Mrs. MCCLAIN. Oh, no, I don't.
I yield back. Thank you.
Chairwoman VAN DUYNE. The Chair now recognizes Chairman
Williams from Texas for 5 minutes.
Mr. WILLIAMS. Thank you, Madam Chair.
And let me just say this. We keep hearing the SBA is going
to be implementing this agreement in a nonpartisan way. We just
heard that. But that is simply not true.
The Administrator chooses where to go and which event to
promote to the American people. And, therefore, if you want to
avoid registering Republicans, you don't go where they are
located, as we just saw on the map. You don't do any press on
it. You don't invite the Michigan Secretary of State's Office
to set up a table to register voters.
There are still a lot of unanswered questions in here, and
we aren't going to stop looking at this until we start to
receive some real answers, which Representative McClain just
tried to get from you.
But with that said, let me yield back the rest of my time
to Chairwoman Van Duyne.
Chairwoman VAN DUYNE. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.
Let me be clear. The reason why we are continuing to push
this investigation is because the SBA has stonewalled us at
every turn.
You briefed the Committee on May 3 but shut down more
questions than you provided answers. The chief of staff said he
could not recall pertinent information almost 200 times. We
aren't getting answers, we aren't getting documents, and that
is a fact.
Further, the House passed my bill, which would create a
link on the SBA's website for people to report COVID fraud at
the SBA. We literally needed an act of Congress to get that
link created. And guess what? SBA still hasn't done it.
Instead, you are prioritizing creating a link to register
voters.
I think the SBA's priorities are pretty crystal clear. They
want to register voters and forget about fraud.
Under the NVRA, which we have heard a number of times
today, the States are allowed to request help from agencies,
not the other way around.
The SBA has told us, and you, Ms. Kim, told us that the SBA
reached out first. Do you stand by that statement?
Ms. KIM. I don't think that I said that the SBA reached out
first.
Chairwoman VAN DUYNE. Well, in fact, the legal ground upon
which you and the Democrats are attempting to stand is shaky at
best. I mean, you said the SBA heard that Michigan was
interested in engaging with the SBA to register votes, but who
told the SBA that Michigan was interested, and how did you
know?
This isn't normal. The NVRA has never been used like this
in 30 years. In the SBA's own words, this is a first-of-its-
kind agreement, as the SBA stated in their press release.
This hearing has shown the SBA is as ineffective in
implementing this project as they are with anything else. If
not, you are at least consistent, if not anything else.
So, Ms. Kim, you couldn't give me or Ms. Scholten a viable
reason for the lack of implementation of this MOU, and it is
obvious the SBA doesn't seem to have any kind of plan to
implement it at all.
But on top of that, you and the Democrats are saying that
this voter registration is so vitally important to small
businesses' survival in Michigan that you have got to
prioritize it. And yet, now you are saying that small
businesses don't even have access to the URL that you spent
time putting together. And how does that make any sense?
So it seems like we started looking into this, and as we
started our investigation and asking questions and having your
folks come to our Committee and answer those questions and try
getting documents, basically, you basically stopped
implementing the program, is least that it would seem, because
we haven't been able to get any answers today on the timeframe,
on when the URL is going up.
You have had this agreement signed since March. It is now
nearly the end of July and nothing has happened. So, again, you
are just as effective in this program as some others.
But I appreciate your time here today.
Mrs. MCCLAIN. Will the gentlelady yield to me?
Chairwoman VAN DUYNE. Oh, I am going to yield the rest of
my time to Representative McClain.
Mrs. MCCLAIN. Question for you, Ms. Kim. Did you reach out
to the State of Michigan, or did the State of Michigan reach
out to you?
Ms. KIM. I joined the SBA in 2022, so the conversations
with Michigan had started in 2021. So I don't have firsthand
knowledge of those.
Mrs. MCCLAIN. Do you have secondhand knowledge?
Ms. KIM. Again, my understanding is that Michigan was
interested in partnering and so the whole----
Mrs. MCCLAIN. Can you get that answer?
Ms. KIM. I am not honestly sure who would have it, but I
can definitely look into it. Again, it happened before I got
here.
And I should add----
Mrs. MCCLAIN. So I just want to make sure.
Ms. KIM. Yeah.
Mrs. MCCLAIN. So you don't know if the State of Michigan
reached out to you to implement this program or you reached out
to the State of Michigan?
And I say that because it is a very critical question that
you don't have the answer to. If you don't have the answer, who
would? Perhaps your boss?
Ms. KIM. Again, all the work with the State of Michigan
started before I joined the agency.
Mrs. MCCLAIN. But you use that as a common excuse. It
started before you joined the agency. Okay. And you joined the
agency when again?
Ms. KIM. In March of 2022.
Mrs. MCCLAIN. In March of 2022. So any work that was done
before March of 2022, you have no clue on?
Ms. KIM. I have some general understanding. And, again,
when I started, that kind of work was already happening and I
checked in on----
Mrs. MCCLAIN. So you are just, like, ``Okay, wasn't me''?
Do you think you could get me that answer?
Chairwoman VAN DUYNE. The lady's time has expired.
Mrs. MCCLAIN. Let her answer, please.
Do you think you can get that answer?
Ms. KIM. Any specific request I am sure we can follow up.
Mrs. MCCLAIN. So I will take that as a no.
Chairwoman VAN DUYNE. The lady's time has expired.
Mrs. MCCLAIN. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Chairwoman VAN DUYNE. I would like to thank our witness for
her testimony and for appearing before us today.
Without objection, Members have 5 legislative days to
submit additional materials and written questions for the
witness to the Chair, which will be forwarded to the witness. I
ask the witness to please respond promptly.
If there is no further business, without objection, the
Committee is adjourned.
Ms. KIM. Thank you.
[Whereupon, at 11:46 a.m., the Subcommittee was adjourned.]
[Ms. Kim did not submit her responses to questions in a
timely manner.]
A P P E N D I X
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