[House Hearing, 118 Congress]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]


                  THE BIOSAFETY OF RISKY RESEARCH: EXAMINING 
                   IF SCIENCE IS OUTPACING POLICY AND SAFETY

=======================================================================

                                HEARING

                               BEFORE THE

                       SUBCOMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT AND 
                             INVESTIGATIONS

                                 OF THE

                    COMMITTEE ON ENERGY AND COMMERCE
                        HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

                    ONE HUNDRED EIGHTEENTH CONGRESS

                             FIRST SESSION

                               __________

                             APRIL 27, 2023

                               __________

                           Serial No. 118-30
                           
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     Published for the use of the Committee on Energy and Commerce   
     
                   govinfo.gov/committee/house-energy
                        energycommerce.house.gov
                        
                                __________

                   U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE                    
55-663 PDF                  WASHINGTON : 2025                  
          
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------     
                        
                    COMMITTEE ON ENERGY AND COMMERCE

                   CATHY McMORRIS RODGERS, Washington
                                  Chair
MICHAEL C. BURGESS, Texas            FRANK PALLONE, Jr., New Jersey
ROBERT E. LATTA, Ohio                  Ranking Member
BRETT GUTHRIE, Kentucky              ANNA G. ESHOO, California
H. MORGAN GRIFFITH, Virginia         DIANA DeGETTE, Colorado
GUS M. BILIRAKIS, Florida            JAN SCHAKOWSKY, Illinois
BILL JOHNSON, Ohio                   DORIS O. MATSUI, California
LARRY BUCSHON, Indiana               KATHY CASTOR, Florida
RICHARD HUDSON, North Carolina       JOHN P. SARBANES, Maryland
TIM WALBERG, Michigan                PAUL TONKO, New York
EARL L. ``BUDDY'' CARTER, Georgia    YVETTE D. CLARKE, New York
JEFF DUNCAN, South Carolina          TONY CARDENAS, California
GARY J. PALMER, Alabama              RAUL RUIZ, California
NEAL P. DUNN, Florida                SCOTT H. PETERS, California
JOHN R. CURTIS, Utah                 DEBBIE DINGELL, Michigan
DEBBBIE LESKO, Arizona               MARC A. VEASEY, Texas
GREG PENCE, Indiana                  ANN M. KUSTER, New Hampshire
DAN CRENSHAW, Texas                  ROBIN L. KELLY, Illinois
JOHN JOYCE, Pennsylvania             NANETTE DIAZ BARRAGAN, California
KELLY ARMSTRONG, North Dakota, Vice  LISA BLUNT ROCHESTER, Delaware
    Chair                            DARREN SOTO, Florida
RANDY K. WEBER, Sr., Texas           ANGIE CRAIG, Minnesota
RICK W. ALLEN, Georgia               KIM SCHRIER, Washington
TROY BALDERSON, Ohio                 LORI TRAHAN, Massachusetts
RUSS FULCHER, Idaho                  LIZZIE FLETCHER, Texas
AUGUST PFLUGER, Texas
DIANA HARSHBARGER, Tennessee
MARIANNETTE MILLER-MEEKS, Iowa
KAT CAMMACK, Florida
JAY OBERNOLTE, California
                                 ------                                

                           Professional Staff

                      NATE HODSON, Staff Director
                   SARAH BURKE, Deputy Staff Director
               TIFFANY GUARASCIO, Minority Staff Director
              Subcommittee on Oversight and Investigations

                      H. MORGAN GRIFFITH, Virginia
                                 Chairman
MICHAEL C. BURGESS, Texas            KATHY CASTOR, Florida
BRETT GUTHRIE, Kentucky                Ranking Member
JEFF DUNCAN, South Carolina          DIANA DeGETTE, Colorado
GARY J. PALMER, Alabama              JAN SCHAKOWSKY, Illinois
DEBBIE LESKO, Arizona, Vice Chair    PAUL TONKO, New York
DAN CRENSHAW, Texas                  RAUL RUIZ, California
KELLY ARMSTRONG, North Dakota        SCOTT H. PETERS, California
KAT CAMMACK, Florida                 FRANK PALLONE, Jr., New Jersey (ex 
CATHY McMORRIS RODGERS, Washington       officio)
    (ex officio)
                             
                             C O N T E N T S

                              ----------                              
                                                                   Page
Hon. H. Morgan Griffith, a Representative in Congress from the 
  Commonwealth of Virginia, opening statement....................     1
    Prepared statement...........................................     4
Hon. Kathy Castor, a Representative in Congress from the State of 
  Florida, opening statement.....................................    10
    Prepared statement...........................................    12
Hon. Cathy McMorris Rodgers, a Representative in Congress from 
  the State of Washington, opening statement.....................    14
    Prepared statement...........................................    16
Hon. Frank Pallone, Jr., a Representative in Congress from the 
  State of New Jersey, opening statement.........................    19
    Prepared statement...........................................    21

                               Witnesses

Rocco Casagrande, Ph.D., Board Chair, Gryphon Scientific.........    24
    Prepared statement...........................................    27
    Answers to submitted questions...............................    99
Gregory D. Koblentz, Ph.D., Associate Professor and Director, 
  Biodefense Graduate Programs, George Mason University..........    32
    Prepared statement...........................................    35
    Answers to submitted questions...............................   102
Andy Pekosz, Ph.D., Professor of Molecular Microbiology and 
  Immunology, Johns Hopkins University Bloomberg School of Public 
  Health.........................................................    59
    Prepared statement...........................................    61
    Answers to submitted questions...............................   108
Robert J. Hawley, Ph.D., Consultant, Biological Safety and 
  Security.......................................................    67
    Prepared statement...........................................    69

                           Submitted Material

Inclusion of the following was approved by unanimous consent.
Letter of April 26, 2023, from Melanie Anne Egorin, Assistant 
  Secretary for Legislation, Department of Health and Human 
  Services, to Mrs. Rodgers......................................    95

 
  THE BIOSAFETY OF RISKY RESEARCH: EXAMINING IF SCIENCE IS OUTPACING 
                           POLICY AND SAFETY

                              ----------                              


                        THURSDAY, APRIL 27, 2023

                  House of Representatives,
      Subcommittee on Oversight and Investigations,
                          Committee on Energy and Commerce,
                                                    Washington, DC.
    The subcommittee met, pursuant to call, at 2:29 p.m. in 
room 2322, Rayburn House Office Building, Hon. H. Morgan 
Griffith (chairman of the subcommittee) presiding.
    Members present: Representatives Griffith, Burgess, 
Guthrie, Duncan, Palmer, Lesko, Cammack, Rodgers (ex officio), 
Castor (subcommittee ranking member), DeGette, Tonko, Ruiz, and 
Pallone (ex officio).
    Staff present: Sean Brebbia, Chief Counsel, Oversight and 
Investigations; Lauren Eriksen, Clerk, Oversight and 
Investigations; Peter Kielty, General Counsel; Emily King, 
Member Services Director; Chris Krepich, Press Secretary; Alan 
Slobodin, Chief Investigative Counsel, Oversight and 
Investigations; John Strom, Counsel, Oversight and 
Investigations; Austin Flack, Minority Junior Professional 
Staff Member; Waverly Gordon, Minority Deputy Staff Director 
and General Counsel; Liz Johns, Minority GAO Detailee; Will 
McAuliffe, Minority Chief Counsel, Oversight and 
Investigations; Christina Parisi, Minority Professional Staff 
Member; Greg Pugh, Minority Staff Assistant; Harry Samuels, 
Minority Oversight Counsel; and Caroline Wood, Minority 
Research Analyst.
    Mr. Griffith. The Subcommittee on Oversight and 
Investigations will now come to order, and the Chair recognizes 
himself for a 5-minute opening statement.

OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. H. MORGAN GRIFFITH, A REPRESENTATIVE 
         IN CONGRESS FROM THE COMMONWEALTH OF VIRGINIA

    Good afternoon. Welcome to today's hearing. The 
subcommittee previously held a hearing on how quickly--how to 
quickly identify the root cause of a disease outbreak. Today's 
hearing will examine biosafety practices at high-containment 
laboratories handling dangerous pathogens. We will focus on 
addressing whether advancements in biotech have outpaced our 
existing biosafety guidelines, and whether or not we are 
following those guidelines.
    The NIH clearly did not enforce those guidelines with 
research being done for it by EcoHealth Alliance and the Wuhan 
Institute of Virology into novel coronaviruses. Our examination 
of biosafety has to be informed by the real possibility that a 
pandemic which killed over 1 million Americans was the result 
of an incident at a laboratory that received NIH funding.
    As I have said at past hearings, I believe the available 
evidence favors COVID-19 emerging due to a lab-related 
incident. My belief that COVID-19 came from a lab leak is now 
shared by the Department of Energy and the FBI. But regardless 
of our individual opinions as to the origins of COVID-19, we in 
Congress have a responsibility to understand the potential 
benefits and perils of this type of research. As the committee 
with authorizing jurisdiction over Federal biomedical research, 
all of us here today have a special responsibility to grapple 
with these issues.
    High-containment biosafety labs are expensive and complex 
to build, maintain, and run. Research conducted in these 
laboratories involves pathogens that can cause serious, 
potentially life-threatening diseases--and in the case of 
biosafety level 4, BSL-4, laboratories, diseases which--for 
which no vaccine or therapy exists.
    It is crazy to me that the Wuhan Institute of Virology 
appears to have conducted at least some high-risk coronavirus 
research at a biosafety level 2 lab, and did so with U.S. 
dollars. In 2000 there were less than 10 BSL-4 labs in the 
world. There are now 59 in operation, under construction, or 
planned. In the United States alone, there are over 1,500 
biosafety level 3 facilities.
    Rapid advances in biotechnology have opened up potential 
new cures and expanded our scientific knowledge. But this has 
also led to the proliferation of new technologies and research 
techniques that are inherently dual-use and potentially 
dangerous if done in inappropriate biosafety conditions. 
Balancing safety with innovation is an enduring challenge.
    Our existing oversight framework for risky research isn't 
working. Whether we call it gain of function research or 
whether it is called research with enhanced potential pandemic 
pathogens, I fear we have not kept pace. The United States 
doesn't have a comprehensive regulatory system for high-
containment laboratories. Practically speaking, the research 
institutions, companies, and universities that operate these 
facilities police themselves.
    Back in 2017, the White House's Office of Science and 
Technology Policy issued guidance, the Potential Pandemic 
Pathogen Care and Oversight Framework, but it was intended to 
apply to all Executive agencies. However, it has only been 
implemented by one department, Health and Human Services. And 
HHS has largely delegated implementation to the NIH, a funding 
entity who has shown a lack of significant oversight towards 
riskier research with their grantee, EcoHealth Alliance, and 
subgrantee, Wuhan Institute of Virology.
    As the debacle with EcoHealth Alliance and the Wuhan 
Institute of Virology makes clear, NIH is neither inclined nor 
equipped to exercise oversight of the risky research it funds 
within the United States or abroad. NIH is not only indifferent 
but reflexively hostile to outside oversight. NIH has 
stonewalled and slow-walked our document requests related to 
EcoHealth Alliance grants.
    Further, how many accidents at high-containment labs go 
unreported? There does not appear to be a governmentwide effort 
to understand the frequency and nature of laboratory accidents. 
Since last October, NIH has not provided key information about 
an in-house National Institute of Allergy and Infectious 
Disease gain-of-function experiment involving a highly lethal 
clade of monkeypox. NIH won't even tell us about its 
deliberations about this experiment. It makes me wonder what 
the NIH has to hide. How bad is it, when they won't even engage 
with the authorizing committee about this information? We have 
to assume there is something they don't want us to know about. 
Perhaps something very, very dangerous.
    I will conclude my opening remarks by noting that the 
highest-ranking NIH official, Dr. Larry Tabak, appeared before 
this committee in February in response to questions about NIH's 
failure to enforce biosafety measures it placed on coronavirus 
research it funded at the Wuhan Institute of Virology. Dr. 
Tabak testified the NIH is not an enforcement agency. I am 
beginning to think he is right.
    It may be time for us in Congress to relieve the NIH of the 
burden of conducting risky research at institutions that it 
funds.
    [The prepared statement of Mr. Griffith follows:]
    [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
    
    Mr. Griffith. I yield back. I now recognize the ranking 
member of this subcommittee, Ms. Castor, for her 5 minutes for 
an opening statement.

  OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. KATHY CASTOR, A REPRESENTATIVE IN 
               CONGRESS FROM THE STATE OF FLORIDA

    Ms. Castor. Well, thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you to 
the witnesses for being here today.
    There are two important complementary priorities that I 
look forward to discussing with our witnesses today. The first 
is to make sure that we are advancing science and research so 
that we can better protect Americans from disease, achieve 
scientific breakthroughs, and continue to lead the world in 
innovation and discovery. The second is to ensure that the 
safety standards governing our Nation's research continue to 
protect the public and the scientists and researchers involved. 
Extensive oversight and safety requirements already exist in 
our research centers today, and I hope that our witnesses can 
help us better understand that and how we can continue to 
modernize.
    Americans can be proud of the U.S.-led research in 
laboratories in the United States and across the world, 
including with infectious diseases and pathogens. When the 
COVID-19 pandemic hit, we relied on this research to spur 
vaccine development in record time. And each year, researchers 
across the globe collaborate to study seasonal influenza so 
that we can better develop vaccines to protect the public based 
on real-time data in other nations. And when more infectious 
flu variants like the avian flu emerge, we depend on our 
researchers to go into high-containment labs to study ways to 
prevent death and disease.
    And as we will discuss at tomorrow's hearing, viral 
research is critical to helping us prepare for and address the 
emerging threat of antimicrobial resistance. Because this 
research is so important, Congress should support thoughtful, 
constructive steps to ensure that it is being conducted safely. 
We must remain the gold standard of biosafety standards 
internationally and continue to improve and modernize. I hope 
to have a constructive discussion about those potential 
improvements in this committee and ensure that any new policies 
we consider include input from key stakeholders in the research 
community.
    Some of my colleagues on the other side of the aisle have 
floated broad bans on international collaboration without 
considering what that would mean for flu surveillance, for 
vaccine development, or monitoring viruses. Many of these 
proposed research restrictions and criticisms target research 
in other countries, including some countries where viral 
outbreaks have originated in the past.
    But disease knows no borders. Since I have come to Congress 
we have had to address global outbreaks of MERS, Zika, Ebola, 
and, of course, COVID-19 and its changing variants. These 
viruses are threats to everyone, and it is critical that our 
scientists can partner with public health experts to identify 
and stop potential pandemics. The administration's National 
Biodefense Strategy recognizes the need for America to 
galvanize support for multinational biosafety commitments so 
that research in foreign countries can be done safely and up to 
the high--the same high standards that we use in our labs at 
home.
    I also sit on the Select Committee on the Strategic 
Competition between the United States and the Chinese Communist 
Party, where we are focused on the threat posed by the CCP and 
on a plan of action to defend the American people, our economy, 
and our values. I can tell you that, if America does not lead 
the world in infectious disease research, the CCP will try to 
fill that role. If we don't continue to engage and collaborate 
with the international research community, advise where 
appropriate on development of labs, and export our best 
practices and training on lab safety, the CCP will fill that 
void, for sure. And if they do, we will have little 
transparency into what work is being done and how.
    Overbroad funding bans will not accomplish our goals and 
could have detrimental impacts on future medical advancements 
and scientific breakthroughs. Any discussion we have must be 
done in a thoughtful manner, with the input of people who 
actually conduct research on dangerous pathogens every day.
    No one has a greater stake in lab safety than researchers 
working in American labs. These are the people who do the hard 
work to develop groundbreaking proposals, study how viruses 
grow and mutate, and make sure we are protected from the next 
viral outbreak. I trust that we can support these researchers 
by forging a bipartisan path forward on lab safety that doesn't 
stifle the research and international collaboration that all 
Americans rely on to protect their health and safety.
    [The prepared statement of Ms. Castor follows:]
    [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
    
    Ms. Castor. So I look forward to our discussion today, and 
I yield back.
    Mr. Griffith. The gentlelady yields back. Now I recognize 
the Chair of the full committee, Mrs. McMorris Rodgers, for her 
5 minutes for an opening statement.

      OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. CATHY McMORRIS RODGERS, A 
    REPRESENTATIVE IN CONGRESS FROM THE STATE OF WASHINGTON

    Mrs. Rodgers. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. With several new 
books out this week about lab accidents, a recently released 
Senate report with new details pointing to safety problems at 
the Wuhan lab and the recent recommendations of an NIH advisory 
panel on oversight of risky research, this hearing is timely, 
not to mention the terrifying news that fighters in Sudan have 
seized the country's National Laboratory for Public Health, 
which holds samples of risky and deadly diseases, including 
measles, polio, and cholera, which the World Health 
Organization has said is a huge biological risk.
    This is especially worrisome, considering the CDC has 
supported this national lab since 2006, including its biosafety 
protocols, lab quality management, and infrastructure and staff 
trainings. As recently as 2018, CDC helped to establish the 
first viral load monitoring facility at this lab. This is a 
very dangerous situation that we must monitor closely.
    We still do not know how the COVID-19 pandemic started. 
However, more information has heightened our suspicions that 
the origin of the pandemic was linked to a lab incident. It 
raises the importance of our work to oversee biosafety of risky 
research. Unfortunately, in our pursuit of solutions the 
conduct of some public health officials and the loss of trust 
in our public health institutions hampered our response.
    Instead of openness and honest discussion, HHS and NIH have 
persisted in foot dragging, stonewalling, or flat-out refusing 
to engage in legitimate questions. Today the NIH still won't 
provide meaningful information or straight answers to the 
committee about how the PC3O framework governing risky research 
was developed or who at the NIH was responsible for developing 
the framework. An NIH advisory panel earlier this year found 
the framework had too many loopholes and too much flexibility 
to evade independent review.
    We still do not have complete information about NIH experts 
in 2016, how they allowed EcoHealth Alliance, through its 
subgrantee, the Wuhan Institute of Virology, to proceed with a 
research proposal infecting humanized mice with experimental 
coronavirus strains. NIH and EcoHealth agreed to go forward 
with the experiment on the condition that, if excessive virus 
growth occurred, EcoHealth would immediately stop the 
experiment and notify the NIH. This condition was incorporated 
into the grant terms. The experiment went forward. There was 
excessive virus growth, but immediate stoppage and notification 
did not occur. This was the conclusion of both the NIH and the 
Office of Health and Human Services' inspector general.
    Under other circumstances, EcoHealth's failure to stop the 
experiment and immediately notify the NIH could be described as 
a near-miss safety incident. However, we have no way of knowing 
whether it was a lucky break with no incident or a lab 
experiment gone wrong. NIH has no way of knowing, because 
EcoHealth committed another failure: It did not obtain the 
laboratory notebooks and electronic files from Wuhan lab.
    Yet even with these compliance failures, NIH continues to 
hold EcoHealth to good standing and continues to provide them 
even more funding. No changes in policy, no lessons learned, no 
consequences, no accountability, no seriousness from the NIH. 
No wonder the credibility of the NIH has suffered, even after 
spending $1 billion in taxpayer dollars on public relations. We 
are going to get to the bottom of that too.
    The American people deserve answers and accountability. Dr. 
Fauci admitting in The New York Times ``something clearly went 
wrong'' is not going to cut it. As we learned today, we have 
gaps in biosafety policy and oversight. However, even 
addressing these gaps will not be sufficient if the NIH only 
pays lip service to biosafety compliance with no real 
commitment to implementation. The path forward to restoring 
public health is having good-faith, honest discussion.
    We need critical research for cures and medical 
countermeasures. For years this committee, and especially this 
subcommittee, have held oversight hearings about lab accidents 
and other mishaps. The risk side still has not been adequately 
dealt with. Today's hearing can be a constructive start, and I 
thank the witnesses for being here, for your participation, and 
especially participating on short notice.
    I yield back.
    [The prepared statement of Mrs. Rodgers follows:]
    [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
    
    Mr. Griffith. I thank the gentlelady. I now recognize the 
ranking member of the full committee, Mr. Pallone, for his 5 
minutes for an opening statement.

OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. FRANK PALLONE, Jr., A REPRESENTATIVE 
            IN CONGRESS FROM THE STATE OF NEW JERSEY

    Mr. Pallone. Thank you, Chairman. When the coronavirus 
pandemic began, many researchers with the training and 
experience to examine dangerous viruses put their research on 
hold to tackle the pandemic. The lab infrastructure that was in 
place and the research community were essential in identifying 
the virus, how it worked, and how we could slow its spread and 
limit its ability to harm Americans. And the public saw the 
benefits of this research in real time, with vaccinations 
becoming available at an unprecedented pace.
    So we will hear a lot today about the risk of certain kinds 
of research, and it is important that we examine those risks. 
At the same time, we need to understand the benefits of certain 
research in preventing and responding to pandemics, and we also 
need to discuss the training and safety measures that are 
already in place in high-containment labs to reduce risk.
    Thanks to the investments that have been made in research, 
the scientific community was able to respond to the COVID-19 
pandemic in record time. This included scientists at our public 
institutions as well as those in the private sector. It was a 
global effort to solve a global problem, and we should take 
immense pride to the extent and quality of America's scientific 
contributions towards understanding and addressing the COVID-19 
pandemic.
    And one of the many lessons that we should take away from 
the pandemic is that a well-resourced and well-trained 
scientific community is essential if we have any hope of 
preventing and defeating future pandemics.
    Now, studying dangerous pathogens requires carefully 
considered protocols and persistent oversight to ensure that 
the work is conducted safely. When it comes to risk, it is the 
researchers working in high-containment labs, they are the ones 
with the most to lose when labs are not adequately maintained 
or corners are cut or safety protocols are insufficient. They 
are the ones who are literally in the room with dangerous 
pathogens so they can study how the pathogens threaten us and 
how we can protect ourselves. So we must ensure that scientists 
feel free to speak up about any concerns they have that could 
help improve lab safety.
    But I am very concerned that the tenor of the current 
debate on lab safety is having a chilling effect on scientific 
research and among the scientists at the forefront of disease 
prevention and response. We have seen scientists, including 
some of our top public health officials, maligned, 
marginalized, taken out of context, and accused of covering up 
the origins of COVID-19. And these actions are harmful and 
counterproductive, because we must have scientists at the table 
if we want to stay world leaders in science and research and if 
we want researchers to feel comfortable raising safety 
concerns.
    So I am pleased we have a witness at the table today who 
can help us understand--I should say witnesses at the table 
today who can help us understand--what is working well already 
and where there may be a need for additional transparency, 
consistency, and safety regulation or oversight.
    The Biden administration and House Democrats have taken 
important steps towards increasing biosafety and biosecurity. 
Last year's Consolidated Appropriations Act contained numerous 
important provisions to improve biosafety, but no Republican on 
this committee that is here today supported that legislation. 
And just yesterday the House Republican majority jammed through 
their Default on America Act that would strip funding from 
important programs that could assist with pandemic preparedness 
and biosafety. It also strips COVID-19 treatment and vaccine 
development funds and threatens U.S.-based medical 
manufacturing. With this legislation, House Republicans, I 
believe, are threatening a default crisis that would devastate 
everyday Americans.
    So I hope today's hearing demonstrates why continuous 
investment, rather than misguided funding cuts, is essential to 
prevent pandemics and respond swiftly when they occur.
    [The prepared statement of Mr. Pallone follows:]
    [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
    
    Mr. Pallone. And with that, Mr. Chairman, I would yield 
back.
    Mr. Griffith. I thank the gentleman for yielding back. That 
concludes Member opening statements.
    I would like to remind Members that, pursuant to committee 
rules, all Members' opening statements will be made a part of 
the record.
    We want to thank all of our witnesses for being here today 
and taking your time to testify before the subcommittee. Each 
witness will have an opportunity to give an opening statement, 
followed by a round of questions from the Members.
    Our witnesses today are Dr. Rocco Casagrande, executive 
chairman of Gryphon--did I say that right--Scientific; Dr. 
Robert Hawley, former chief of Safety and Radiation Protection 
Division of the U.S. Army Medical Research Institute, Fort 
Detrick; Dr. Gregory Koblentz, associate professor and director 
of biodefense graduate programs for George Mason University; 
Andy Pekosz, professor of molecular microbiology and 
immunology, Johns Hopkins University.
    We appreciate you being here today, and I look forward to 
hearing from you all on this important issue. As you are aware, 
the committee is holding an oversight hearing. And when we do 
so, we have the practice of taking our testimony under oath. Do 
any of you have objections to testifying under oath today?
    Seeing no objections, we will proceed. The Chair advises 
you are also entitled to be advised by counsel pursuant to 
House rules. Do you desire to be advised by counsel during your 
testimony today?
    Seeing that none have requested counsel, please--if each of 
you would, please rise and raise your right hand.
    [Witnesses sworn.]
    Mr. Griffith. Seeing that all witnesses have responded in 
the affirmative, you are now sworn in and under oath, subject 
to the penalties set forth in title 18, section 1001 of the 
United States Code.
    With that, we will now recognize Dr. Rocco Casagrande for 5 
minutes to give an opening statement.
    But before you begin your opening statement, if you would, 
introduce your two high-level staff assistants who have come 
with you today. I see them sitting behind you.
    Dr. Casagrande. Thank you. My senior advisors are Jack and 
Kennedy. I hope that doesn't make my comments too partisan.
    [Laughter.]
    Mr. Griffith. No, not taken that way at all. But we welcome 
your senior advisors to be with us today, and we are glad that 
they are here.
    If you would now proceed with your 5 minutes of opening 
statement, please.

  STATEMENTS OF ROCCO CASAGRANDE, Ph.D., BOARD CHAIR, GRYPHON 
SCIENTIFIC; GREGORY D. KOBLENTZ, Ph.D., ASSOCIATE PROFESSOR AND 
     DIRECTOR, BIODEFENSE GRADUATE PROGRAMS, GEORGE MASON 
    UNIVERSITY; ANDY PEKOSZ, Ph.D., PROFESSOR OF MOLECULAR 
MICROBIOLOGY AND IMMUNOLOGY, JOHNS HOPKINS UNIVERSITY BLOOMBERG 
 SCHOOL OF PUBLIC HEALTH; ROBERT J. HAWLEY, Ph.D, CONSULTANT, 
                 BIOLOGICAL SAFETY AND SECURITY

              STATEMENT OF ROCCO CASAGRANDE, Ph.D.

    Dr. Casagrande. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I am honored that 
you invited me to speak about such a timely and important topic 
as laboratory safety.
    Today I am going to advocate for several improvements that 
are critically needed to ensure that the laboratories that 
study the most deadly and transmissible viruses remain safe. 
This research is essential to prevent and respond to pandemics 
of the future. However, it is not without risks.
    The practice of mitigating such risks is called biosafety. 
Historically, biosafety has been perceived as consuming time 
and money that would otherwise be spent on critical research. 
But I am also going to argue that needed improvements in 
biosafety will not stifle or draw away resources but will help 
improve the efficiency of the research enterprise if 
implemented properly. The critical improvements that I will 
talk about today can be grouped into six categories: oversight, 
research, standards, workforce, resources, and mission.
    Regarding oversight, biosafety authority in the U.S. 
derives from a patchwork of regulations, laws, and guidance, 
given the pathogen researched or the source of funding. 
Currently, some pathogen research is conducted in the U.S. 
without any Federal oversight. Theoretically, a privately 
funded group could work on influenza virus in a makeshift 
laboratory, and attempt to make the strain more deadly or more 
transmissible. If they are not using a select agent strain of 
flu and they are doing the research for peaceful purposes, 
there is no Federal entity that could ensure that they are 
doing their work safely or securely, or prevent them from 
continuing if safety or security is lacking.
    The U.S. needs a unified biosafety system that can provide 
oversight for research on all dangerous pathogens, regardless 
of the funding source or the affiliation of the researchers. 
Unlike other high-risk endeavors like aviation and nuclear 
power, biosafety does not have a robust research history 
because there has been nearly no funding for research in the--
in biosafety over the past several decades. We currently lack 
data on how accidents occur or the factors that can effectively 
mitigate those accidents.
    Historically, biosafety improvements have always added onto 
existing equipment, procedures, or administration because there 
were no data suggesting which specific improvements were 
particularly effective versus others available. Investments in 
biosafety research can determine exactly what measures 
effectively reduce risk and which are simply theater, enabling 
the efficient use of research dollars across the United States.
    Using new evidence to eliminate wasteful measures would 
also make laboratories more sustainable, as money need not be 
spent maintaining equipment with little value.
    Biosafety research can also directly inform laboratory 
practices on the choice of equipment and procedures that are 
inherently safer, improving safety in the near term.
    Data generated by biosafety research can also boost 
compliance with safer but inconvenient practices because 
scientists are naturally skeptical and data focused.
    Although there are general standards regarding safe 
practices for research, more standards are needed to cement and 
communicate best practices and ensure that the laboratories 
doing the least don't have an advantage over those taking more 
measures to be safe.
    For example, standards are needed to define how many 
biosafety professionals are needed to support research 
facilities of various sizes and complexities and what type of 
training is needed to work in containment. Developing these 
standards and templates for training would save all research 
facilities from developing their own.
    Also, the biosafety workforce is rapidly aging and 
experiencing burnout due to adopting extra duties to keep 
campuses and workplaces safe during the COVID pandemic. 
Fellowships, curricula, and training is needed to recruit 
scientists into the safety workforce and ready them for a 
career.
    Biosafety has historically been underresourced for various 
reasons. In most institutions, biosafety staff are paid out of 
overhead costs instead of directly from research dollars, 
meaning that safety workforce draws resources out of the 
institution instead of paying for itself. As a colleague of 
mine has aptly said, ``Biosafety has a soft money, soft jobs 
problem.'' Allowing the maintenance of safe labs as a direct 
cost on grants would help ensure biosafety is adequately 
supported.
    Moreover, in order to be properly implemented, any 
additional requirement put on the biosafety workforce, such as 
those recommended recently by the NSABB, should be accompanied 
by an increase in funding to ensure that biosafety 
professionals don't have to do more with the same resources, 
which itself could hamper safety.
    Regarding mission, currently there is no Federal agency 
that is in charge of biosafety, funding biosafety research, 
promulgating specific biosafety standards, fostering the 
workforce, or providing oversight to all pathogen laboratories. 
To fix this issue, either an existing or new Federal agency 
must be given the comprehensive mission of improving biosafety.
    Some have argued that the additional oversight of biosafety 
of the type I have described would stifle research. This 
position is belied by the fact that countries that have already 
implemented similar systems have equally robust pathogen 
research communities and bio-economies. Specifically Canada, 
Switzerland, Germany, and the UK all have comprehensive 
oversight of pathogen laboratories and several high-containment 
laboratories.
    The resources needed to sponsor research, develop 
standards, foster the workforce is small compared to the 
resources spent on pathogen research itself. An annual budget 
of 60 million would provide sufficient funding to support this 
work, and the sum is approximately 1 percent of NIAID'S 66 
billion annual budget.
    To close the oversight gaps I mentioned and adequately fund 
biosafety professionals to take on greater responsibility would 
require more funding, though the funding is clearly justified 
by the risks. The pandemic, which could have plausibly been 
caused by a laboratory accident, cost more American lives than 
all wars in my lifetime and harmed the economy more than any 
other single event. Investments on the scale of a single 
defense program would transform biosafety in the U.S. and more 
cost-effectively mitigate major risks facing the U.S.
    Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    [The prepared statement of Dr. Casagrande follows:]
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    Mr. Griffith. I thank the gentleman for yielding back and 
now recognize Dr. Koblentz for his 5 minutes of opening 
statement.

              STATEMENT OF GREGORY KOBLENTZ, Ph.D.

    Dr. Koblentz. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you for the 
chance to speak with the committee today about biosafety, 
biosecurity, and dual-use research oversight.
    I am--welcome the opportunity to present the results of the 
Global Bio Labs Initiative, which I codirect with Filippa 
Lentzos at King's College, London. We've spent the last 2 years 
collecting and analyzing data on high-consequence research 
facilities located around the world and evaluating the national 
biorisk management policies in place in these countries in 
order to oversee the safe, secure, and responsible operation of 
these facilities.
    In cooperation with the Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists, 
we have created an interactive website at globalbiolabs.org 
that contains data on the locations and key characteristics of 
these BSL-4 and BSL-3 enhanced laboratories, as well as details 
on the biosafety, biosecurity, and dual-use research oversight 
policies that these countries have in place.
    Today I would like to present the key findings of our 
latest report, the Global Biolabs Report 2023, which contains 
our most recent research analysis on BSL-4 and BSL-3 labs, as 
well as the state of biorisk management around the world. I am 
going to start off talking about the BSL-4 labs, and then I 
will talk about the BSL-3 enhanced labs, and then talk about 
the recommendations that we have.
    Since its launch in 2021, the Global Biolabs Initiative has 
identified more than 100 high-consequence biological research 
facilities, meaning BSL-4 and BSL-3 labs, around the world, 
with more under construction and under development. Among the 
BSL-4 labs, which are designed to work with the most dangerous 
pathogens such as Ebola, Marburg, and smallpox, there are 
currently 69 such labs in operation, under construction, or 
planned in 27 countries. That is an increase of 10 labs from 
our last report in 2021. Today, of those labs, approximately 75 
percent are located in urban areas, which exacerbates concerns 
if there was an accidental release in one of these densely 
populated areas.
    The COVID-19 pandemic has led to a building boom in BSL-4 
labs. Nine countries have announced plans to build 12 new BSL-4 
labs since the start of the pandemic. For five of these 
countries, this will be their first BSL-4 lab, and most of 
these new labs will be built in Asia, including in Kazakhstan, 
the Philippines, India, and Singapore.
    Turning now to the BSL-3 labs, we have identified 57 of 
these biosafety 3 enhanced laboratories in 28 different 
countries. These are BSL-3 labs that have adopted additional 
biosafety and biosecurity measures in order to carry out 
particularly risky research. The most common pathogen studied 
in these BSL-3 enhanced laboratories is highly pathogenic avian 
influenza. These labs have also been used to study the 1918 
pandemic influenza virus, as well as to conduct research on 
potential pandemic pathogens, which is also known as gain of 
function research.
    Eighty percent of the BSL-3 enhanced laboratories that we 
have identified are located in urban areas. However, there is 
limited national biosafety guidance and no international 
guidance about what constitutes a BSL-3 enhanced laboratory. In 
addition, there has been little to no research done to 
determine whether the enhancements that these labs are using 
are commensurate with providing a commensurate level of 
biosafety benefits compared to the riskier research that they 
are conducting.
    The Global Biolabs Initiative is also developing a new 
method for assessing the strength of biosafety, biosecurity, 
and dual-use research oversight policies that are used to 
conduct--oversee the operations in these labs. We have 
collected this data on 27 countries that have or plan to have 
BSL-4 laboratories. Let me discuss each of these in turn.
    First, for biosafety, we have assessed that 21 of the 27 
countries have scored high on biosafety governance. The weakest 
areas we identified were lack of requirements for maintaining 
an inventory of pathogens and for specifying the use of 
personal protective equipment. We are doing less well on 
biosecurity. Only 12 of 27 countries with BSL-4 labs have 
received a high score for biosecurity.
    The biggest gap was in screening of DNA orders related to 
sequencing and synthesis of dangerous pathogens. Only two 
countries have policies in place to screen orders to make sure 
that they are not being used to develop dangerous pathogens. 
Only 11 countries include cybersecurity as part of their 
biosecurity requirements, and only 12 countries mandate that 
labs conduct biosecurity risk assessments.
    The picture is even worse when it comes to governance of 
dual-use research. Only one country, Canada, scores high in 
this category. Two other countries, including the United 
States, score medium, and the rest of the 24 countries we study 
score low. Among these low-scoring countries, many of them have 
a score of zero, meaning they receive no points for having any 
mandatory or voluntary measures in order to conduct oversight 
of dual-use research in labs on their territory.
    With that review of the virus landscape, let me offer some 
recommendations for concrete steps that we can take to 
strengthen biorisk management. At the national level, all 
countries with high-consequence biological research facilities 
should have whole-of-government biorisk management systems, 
including comprehensive laws, regulations, institutions to 
enforce these laws.
    States should also be developing national standards for 
field biosafety. This is an area that has received very little 
attention so far from the biosafety research community.
    And countries that don't have national biosafety 
associations should develop one with the support of their local 
biosafety and biosecurity professionals. Internationally, the 
World Health Organization and the Biological Weapons Convention 
can also be leveraged to increase global biorisk management and 
improve transparency around these facilities.
    With that, let me just conclude and say that there are more 
countries building high-containment laboratories, conducting 
riskier research with potential pandemic pathogens, and 
developing dual-use biotechnologies. And our biorisk management 
oversight system has not yet caught up with this changing 
threat landscape. Thank you.
    [The prepared statement of Dr. Koblentz follows:]
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    Mr. Griffith. I thank the gentleman.
    I now recognize Mr. Pekosz for his 5 minutes of opening 
statement.

                STATEMENT OF ANDY PEKOSZ, Ph.D.

    Dr. Pekosz. Committee Chair Rodgers, Subcommittee Chair 
Griffith, Vice Chair Lesko, Ranking Subcommittee Member Castor, 
and all members of the subcommittee, thank you for the 
opportunity to participate in today's hearing and devoting your 
time and effort to a topic that is important to our Nation's 
public health.
    I would like to state for the record that the opinions 
expressed herein are my own and do not necessarily reflect the 
views of Johns Hopkins University.
    My name is Andrew Pekosz, and I am a professor of molecular 
microbiology and immunology at the Johns Hopkins University 
Bloomberg School of Public Health. I am a virologist who has 
been doing basic research into viruses, including influenza, 
SARS-COV, SARS-CoV-2, bunyaviruses, and hantaviruses for over 
30 years. That research has been done at biosafety levels 1, 2, 
or 3, depending on the agent and the type of experiment being 
used.
    In addition to my research interests, I have served on 
numerous review or advisory boards at the institutional, State, 
and national levels, all having been focused on establishing 
guidelines and biosafety recommendations that would allow 
critical research to move forward under the most appropriate 
biosafety conditions. I would like to start by going through 
the current biosafety measures that are being used in 
laboratories.
    Contrary to what is often described, scientists working 
with microbes across the United States pay a great deal of 
attention to biosafety. Keeping their laboratory workers safe 
is their top priority. Research with microbes undergoes 
numerous levels of scrutiny before being performed. Pathogen 
registration forms are reviewed by institutional biosafety 
committees, which disclose what experiments investigators plan 
to do and what agents they will be working with. Appropriate 
guidelines are set based on the organism being used and the 
type of experiment being proposed.
    Work in animal models involves additional reviews and 
worker training through animal care-and-use committees that 
assess what methods are being used and what alternatives are 
available to investigators. Work with human samples involves 
yet more training and reviews from institutional review boards 
that ensure that the privacy and safety of investigators and 
participants are given the highest priority.
    The availability of antivirals and vaccines is a critical 
part of the process of biosafety when they are available. 
Protocols for dealing with accidents are developed, and make up 
a significant part of an individual's training.
    The vast majority of research with BSL-2 and BSL-3 
pathogens occurs at the small scale and in ways that really do 
not pose an enhanced risk of infection to laboratory workers. 
Methods that generate aerosols or utilize needles or other 
sharp items are minimized or are often nonexistent. When there 
are clear needs for some of these techniques, extra precautions 
and training are put in place to maintain a safe working 
environment.
    There is an existing framework that targets pathogens with 
pandemic potential, and research that involves potentially 
enhancing their disease-causing properties. This is the PC3O 
mechanism that was mentioned previously. It does lay out the 
process for identifying research of concern and how that 
research will be reviewed, starting at the institutional level 
and progressing to the national level.
    The National Science Advisory Board for Biosecurity, or 
NSABB, recently released recommendations for updating guidance 
regarding research of concern. The NSABB's intentions were 
well-meaning, but the lack of clear definitions regarding the 
type of research and the agents which would be covered by the 
guidelines resulted in more, not less, confusion in the 
scientific community. The risks--this risks slowing our efforts 
aimed at current infectious diseases, while not gaining 
additional protection from future pathogens.
    Their report did hit on several important items. Loopholes 
that allow certain experiments to avoid NIH review because it 
was funded by private sources need to be closed. Biosafety is 
independent of funding sources. Increased transparency about 
the review process and individuals making decisions about 
approving research of concern would also be welcomed by most 
scientists in the field.
    In closing, I would like to emphasize that the United 
States is the world leader in infectious disease research, with 
the development of antimicrobials and vaccines being the 
centerpiece of those efforts. We have an opportunity to 
strengthen the leadership position and expand it to include 
biosafety and research into emerging and potential pathogens. 
The U.S. has the engineering and manufacturing expertise to 
build effective, safe laboratories. It has the scientific, 
public health, and clinical expertise that can continue to 
drive forward and improve our abilities to respond to current 
and future outbreaks.
    The U.S. can set the example of how to safely do research 
with clear public health benefits. This subcommittee will play 
an important role in determining that path forward, and I am 
honored and grateful for the opportunity to provide my 
testimony in support of this initiative. Thank you.
    [The prepared statement of Dr. Pekosz follows:]
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    Mr. Griffith. I thank the gentleman for his opening 
statement.
    I now recognize Dr. Hawley for his 5 minutes.

               STATEMENT OF ROBERT HAWLEY, Ph.D.

    Dr. Hawley. Thank you very much, Chairman Griffith, members 
of the committee, colleagues, and friends. I am going to 
address some of the issues that have been mentioned.
    The origins of biological safety, or biosafety, was at the 
United States Army Biological Research laboratories at Camp 
Detrick, now known as Fort Detrick in Frederick, Maryland, by 
Dr. Arnold G. Wedum, who was the Director of Industrial Health 
and Safety from 1946 through 1969. Dr. Wedum, who is revered as 
the person who is most responsible for creating our profession, 
is considered the father of modern biosafety.
    Through the efforts of Dr. Wedum, we saw the development of 
safer work practices, the biological safety cabinet, advances 
in aerobiological safety, and environmental monitoring. The 
development of biosafety concepts has its roots in the work 
promoted by Dr. Wedum. The type of laboratory work, principles, 
and practices used and the type of facilities needed were 
established on the determination of risk. This was a risk-based 
approach.
    What I want to emphasize is that there is no one procedure 
or technique that can be used for all laboratory research and 
development procedures. Putting it bluntly, no one size fits it 
all. A risk assessment is conducted, followed by a risk 
management procedure, whereby the risk is mitigated or 
eliminated.
    Also implemented was a special procedure section that 
performed medical examinations on personnel assigned to work in 
the biowarfare sections and the special immunizations program 
that began as an immunization program to provide an additional 
measure of protection of laboratory workers against the 
occupational infections.
    Dr. Wedum directed many applied biosafety research projects 
that allowed us to better understand the interaction of 
laboratory procedures and workers and subsequently be able to 
mitigate the negative impacts of these interactions.
    It is unfortunate that, due to today, we do not continue to 
pursue applied biosafety research because of funding 
constraints. The recommendation of the Trans-Federal Task Force 
Report of 2009--development and maintain a robust program of 
applied biosafety and biocontainment research to create 
additional and update existing evidence-based practices and 
technologies--has not gained momentum.
    My experience at the United States Army program with the 
Medical Research and Development Command at Fort Detrick during 
the period 1988 through 2003. The United States Army Medical 
Research Institute of Infectious Diseases, or USAMRIID, is the 
Department of Defense lead laboratory for medical biological 
defense research. USAMRIID was my extended family. Everyone 
treated each other as family members. As an analogy, we were 
like spokes in a wheel, moving smoothly to accomplish our 
mission. That was research for the soldier, protecting the 
warfighter from biological threats and also investigating 
disease outbreaks and threats to public health. We operated 
within an ideal climate of safety. Everyone embraced and 
practiced a culture of safety.
    During this time serving as biosafety officer at USAMRIID, 
I was also a designated command biological safety officer. In 
this role I was tasked to inspect national and international 
contract and university laboratories to assess their 
capabilities and safety program prior to the release of 
fundings. This was an excellent example of command and control 
and also allowed me the opportunity to champion biosafety and 
learn alternative approaches to challenging situations and 
policies.
    Accidents, incidents, or mishaps in the laboratory or in 
any workplace environment do not just happen. They are caused--
usually, because of the unsafe behaviors of people. Included in 
the causes are violation of rules, procedures, inadequate 
training, failure to understand process, or procedure fatigue 
and mental status. Most mishaps can be mitigated or eliminated 
through adequate coaching, mentoring, or training using the 
best practices for facilities, equipment, and procedures.
    I am a firm proponent that we have an opportunity to gain 
experience from our incidents, mishaps, accidents, or near-
misses by sharing our experiences without negative 
consequences. Trans-Federal Task Force, again in 2009, proposed 
a centralized incident-reporting analysis and information-
sharing system. The report further states that an analysis of--
report of laboratory incidents could help improve laboratory 
safety and oversight, determine why the accidents occurred, and 
how they can be prevented in the future. Implementing this 
recommendation will provide resources for generating and 
sharing lessons learned and promoting the need for new or 
revised guidelines, practices, or training.
    I have a few other things to mention, but because of the 
time constraints I just wanted to mention lastly that the 
biosafety practitioner has to be enthusiastic about their work 
and recruit and be a cheerleader for the profession. And I hope 
that my comments will reveal the passion I have for biosafety 
and the continuing desire to learn from my colleagues. Thank 
you very much.
    [The prepared statement of Dr. Hawley follows:]
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    Mr. Griffith. Thank you, and I appreciate the passion of 
all the witnesses.
    We will now begin the question-and-answer portion of the 
hearing, and I will begin by recognizing myself for 5 minutes 
for questions.
    Dr. Koblentz, if the NIH is not capable of enforcing or 
doesn't or isn't inclined to enforce safety standards at labs 
doing risky research, who would you recommend take on that 
responsibility?
    Dr. Koblentz. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I think what we need 
in this country is an overhaul of the biosafety, biosecurity, 
and dual-use research oversight system, which would be best 
placed in an independent agency that would be able to conduct 
that oversight as well as conduct the kind of research that 
both Dr. Casagrande and Dr. Hawley talked about being needed. 
This would be an organization similar to Nuclear Regulatory 
Commission or the FAA or the National Transportation Safety 
Board that would be an independent technical agency that would 
have responsibility for those activities.
    Mr. Griffith. Several of you indicated that there were 
organizations that weren't connected with the NIH or even the 
U.S. Federal Government that were doing this type of research 
or might be doing this type of research. Would it be possible 
that we set something up that would be not necessarily 
governmental or quasi-governmental that would be funded by 
those private organizations that are doing this type of 
research?
    Back to you.
    Dr. Koblentz. That is certainly a possibility. I mean, most 
of the research is probably being conducted with public 
funding. But again, as Dr. Casagrande mentioned, there are gaps 
in the oversight system that would allow a private facility to 
engage in this research without any kind of oversight 
whatsoever. And so you would want to have a comprehensive 
oversight that would include facilities regardless of whether 
they are publicly funded or privately funded.
    Mr. Griffith. I appreciate that.
    We have incomplete data that suggests--and some of you all 
have suggested--that there are accidents in the biosafety labs 
that's not necessarily such a rarity. But how do we start to 
get a more complete count of the number of accidents and 
incidents at high-containment labs?
    Dr. Casagrande, do you want to start?
    Dr. Casagrande. Yes, thank you, Mr. Chairman. A good 
accounting of not just incidents that have occurred but also 
the near-misses would help us to learn from the incidents that 
inevitably will occur and prevent their repetition, and also 
start studying their root causes and most effective ways to 
mitigate them.
    Mr. Griffith. And you think we need Federal legislation 
that indicates--I think both you and Dr. Koblentz indicated we 
need Federal legislation that would require the labs, whether 
they be government or private, to report these near-misses or 
accidents.
    Dr. Casagrande. A database that is missing a big portion of 
the data--that would be what is drawn from the private sector--
would be less robust than one that contains all the data, 
obviously. And some of the research environment in the private 
sector is different from the academic sector. For instance, 
their personnel is much more stable. They don't have as much 
turnover as you do in academia, so they are probably going to 
suffer different risks. So cutting them out would not be 
adequate.
    Mr. Griffith. All right, I appreciate that.
    Mr. Pekosz, can you explain the necessity of progress 
reports when conducting research in biosafety laboratories?
    Dr. Pekosz. Absolutely. I think it demonstrates progress of 
research. It demonstrates areas of research and directions of 
research. Oftentimes directions of research do change from the 
initial proposal that was submitted. And progress reports are a 
great way for regulatory agencies, funding agencies to keep 
track of how those changes are going forward and whether there 
is a major change in direction of research.
    Mr. Griffith. And if we are missing progress reports, 
shouldn't we pause the study or the research until the progress 
reports can be completed and evaluated?
    Dr. Pekosz. Yes, progress reports are essential, I think, 
for monitoring research.
    Mr. Griffith. So when you don't have them, you should put a 
stop to it. All right.
    Dr. Hawley, I understand that you reviewed some of the 
biosafety sections of the recently released Senate report, and 
you were quoted in The Washington Post as saying that the Wuhan 
Institute of Virology had imprudent laboratory practices. And 
it was very, very apparent that the Wuhan Institute of 
Virology's personnel's biological safety training is minimal. 
Is that correct, and can you expand?
    Dr. Hawley. Yes, that is my belief by reading some of the 
reports. Of course, I have never visited the facility, but 
based upon the reports I have read and the approaches they had 
to implementation or developing biological safety equipment led 
me to believe that their training was less than perfect.
    Mr. Griffith. And when you say that there was some 
equipment missing, are you talking about the air incinerator 
that was not installed until late 2019?
    Dr. Hawley. Yes, sir.
    Mr. Griffith. Yes. That is of real concern, isn't it?
    Dr. Hawley. It is, because the air incinerator technology 
was replaced by the HEPA filter in the 1950s, early 1960s. We 
had an air incinerator from our aerobiology building at Fort 
Detrick, and that was eventually closed down, again, because of 
the advent of the HEPA filter. Not only that, because of the 
cost and maintenance involved.
    Mr. Griffith. So they weren't doing anything, as I 
understand it. And then they put the air incinerator in, which 
was 1950s or 1960s technology, when there was better technology 
available. Isn't that what you are saying?
    Dr. Hawley. Yes, sir.
    Mr. Griffith. And my time is----
    Dr. Hawley. I believe that they implemented the air 
incineration because of their lack of reliable data regarding 
the killing of organisms in their primary procedures, such as 
using an autoclave.
    Mr. Griffith. Yes, kind of like shutting the barn door 
after the horse is already out.
    Dr. Hawley. It was a redundant move, yes.
    Mr. Griffith. Yes, sir. I yield back, and now recognize the 
ranking member of the full--excuse me, the ranking member of 
the subcommittee, Ms. Castor, for her 5 minutes of questions.
    Ms. Castor. Yes, thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    Right off the bat I wanted to correct the record at the 
outset. The Chair said that HHS had not replied to a request 
for--on mpox. And here, on April 26, 2023, they did have a 3\1/
2\-page response to the committee that says, ``At the outset, I 
want to respond specifically to the portion of your letter that 
described a September 22 Science article that referenced a 
potential subproject which you called the Clade I study. This 
study has not been formally proposed, and the National 
Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases has no plans to 
move forward with this research. This type of research would 
require a formal proposal to be submitted for review, and the 
proposal would need to undergo the rigorous review process 
described in this letter before it could be initiated.''
    So I am--offer this for the record.
    Mr. Griffith. And without objection, it is accepted.
    [The information appears at the conclusion of the hearing.]
    Mr. Griffith. For the record, let me respond--we haven't 
started your 5 minutes yet, so I am not eating up your time--
that that, while we received that response almost 6 months 
after our initial request, we still did not get an answer as to 
what their deliberations were. Clearly, they have now told us 
they weren't moving forward. The problem is that this is not 
meaningful cooperation or meaningful input with the committee 
of jurisdiction. And accordingly, I stand by my opening 
comments.
    All right, back to you, Ms. Castor.
    Ms. Castor. OK, thanks so much. Well, we all share the goal 
that our labs at home and abroad must adhere to stringent 
safety standards.
    To design any thoughtful improvements from our perspective, 
as policymakers, we really need your input and advice. Dr. 
Pekosz, your research involves working with infectious 
pathogens to surveil and understand flu. You also oversee a 
high-containment lab used to study particularly infectious 
viruses. Walk us through the steps that you must take each time 
you enter a high-containment lab to study an infectious 
pathogen.
    Dr. Pekosz. Absolutely. Thanks for the opportunity to 
describe this.
    I will jump past the training, which is extensive. And 
oftentimes when a member joins my laboratory, for instance, it 
can be anywhere from a month to 2 months before they actually 
go into our high-containment laboratory, because there is about 
a month or two of training that we do outside of the facility 
so individuals get comfortable with their techniques and their 
approaches.
    Our high-containment laboratory has a security swipe, where 
only limited individuals have access to the room. It is a 
multiroom facility. Each of the doors have an interlock system 
so that only one door can be opened at any one particular time, 
and the outside door is only controlled by a security access 
from the outside as well as emergency--or security access from 
the inside.
    We enter an area in our room, where--which we call our 
gowning room or our ante room, and that is the space that is 
pathogen free, and that is where we gown to enter into the 
rooms of our suite where we actually will be working with 
pathogens. That--the gowning part involves us putting on a 
Tyvek oversuit, which is a moisture-resistant protective 
barrier. We put on protective gear over our feet. We put on a 
pair of gloves. We then don what is called an outerprotective 
gown, which is another sort of apron that is moisture 
resistant. We put on a second set of gloves, and then we 
provide protection through something called PPAR, or a PPAR 
unit. And what that is, is it is a unit where we put a hood 
around our entire heads, we connect it via a hose to a unit on 
the side of our waist which takes air from the room, purifies 
it through a HEPA filter, and then sends it through the mask 
out--and out the bottom of our----
    Ms. Castor. This is a detailed process.
    Dr. Pekosz. Yes.
    Ms. Castor. And Dr. Koblentz, you said, OK, looking at it, 
the U.S. and Canada ranked high when it comes to our biorisk 
management score. But then you highlighted the expansion of 
labs across the globe in--after the COVID-19 pandemic. So what 
is our best way in America to make sure that, as labs open 
across the globe, what--is it through the WHO? Is it through 
our research, our collaboration? What is the way to ensure 
that, as labs open, they are adhering to high standards?
    Dr. Koblentz. Thank you for the question. I think we need 
to take a kind of a two-pronged approach. Working through 
organizations like the WHO and the Biological Weapons 
Convention can enable us to set international standards for 
biosafety, biosecurity, and dual-use research oversight that 
all countries can aspire to.
    But at the same time, we also need to have more focused 
efforts that are working with the countries that are perhaps 
developing their first BSL-4 laboratory, and so they need to 
build up the legal and regulatory infrastructure expertise, as 
well as the training for their personnel who will be working 
there, and making sure they are able to work there, you know, 
safely and securely, and engage that--provide the kind of 
training that Dr. Pekosz is talking about.
    And I think there are not only bilateral programs the U.S. 
can do for that, but there are international organizations like 
the International Federation of Biosafety Associations, the 
National Experts Group of Biosafety and Biosecurity Regulators 
that can provide those services, as well, and make sure that 
labs are operating----
    Ms. Castor. And here is my concern now, because I have 
heard--you have made some very important recommendations to us. 
Some say, ``Oh, create a new agency, do some more oversight.'' 
But right now, under the Republicans' Default on America 
proposal, it requires a 22 percent cut to NIH and significant 
cuts to the HHS Office of the Inspector General. That--it would 
totally undermine the--those type of efforts and the ability to 
provide oversight.
    I mean, my time is running out, but for the record, Dr. 
Casagrande, will you reply to us why funding NIH and its 
oversight mechanisms are so important, and how are cuts of that 
magnitude would completely undermine our goals on biosafety in 
the U.S. and across the world?
    Dr. Casagrande. Thank you for the question, Representative 
Castor.
    Yes, I mean----
    Ms. Castor. My time is up, so I am--you will have to take 
that for the record.
    Dr. Casagrande. I don't understand.
    Mr. Griffith. She is asking that you give a written 
response later to the question----
    Dr. Casagrande. Oh----
    Mr. Griffith [continuing]. Because her time has----
    Ms. Castor. Since my time ran out.
    Mr. Griffith [continuing]. Has run out.
    Dr. Casagrande. Sure.
    Ms. Castor. Thank you very much.
    Mr. Griffith. But thank you very much. Thank you. The 
gentlelady yields back. I now recognize the gentleman from 
Texas, Dr. Burgess, for 5 minutes of questioning.
    Mr. Burgess. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and I don't want to 
spend my time doing this, but the exchange you just heard is 
actually factually inaccurate. The appropriations that are done 
that will be delivered to the NIH, the CDC, all of those are 
yet TBD. There are no cuts that have been identified. There are 
overall savings in the budget that will occur over the next 
several years that are important because we are in a fiscal 
crisis. But that type of rhetoric does nothing to advance the--
really, what we are here to discuss today.
    Dr. Casagrande, you actually answered my first question 
spontaneously. I was going to ask which government entity is 
responsible for regulating high-containment or risky research, 
and I think you have already offered that there actually isn't 
one. Is that correct?
    Dr. Casagrande. Right. It depends on what the entity is 
researching, which pathogens, and also where its funding is 
derived from. But in--for the highest level of containment, 
almost all--well, all those pathogens are select agents. And so 
it would fall under the select agent program either under the 
CDC or the USDA. So still two separate entities. But beyond 
that, it depends on if the agent is a select agent or if the 
funding is derived from a Federal agency. If it is not a select 
agent and it is not funded by a Federal agency, then there 
might not be Federal oversight.
    Mr. Burgess. Well, let me ask Mr. Pekosz--if I pronounced 
your name correctly--you identified loopholes that need to be 
closed. Is that along the line of what you were describing by 
closing loopholes?
    I think in your written testimony you say that it--you 
don't differentiate between--well, let me just be sure that I 
have got it correctly, because it--I thought it was an 
important point that you made in reference to closing 
loopholes.
    Dr. Pekosz. Yes, biosafety is independent of funding 
sources.
    Mr. Burgess. Yes.
    Dr. Pekosz. Essentially what I was saying.
    Mr. Burgess. Yes.
    Dr. Pekosz. And I think that is a really important point to 
make. Biosafety is a standard that is dependent upon the 
experiments you are doing, the pathogens you are working with, 
and the facilities that you have. We shouldn't be monitoring 
that--or changing that, I should say--in any way based on 
simply where the money is coming from.
    Mr. Burgess. Yes, I think that is such a valid point.
    Dr. Hawley, I really appreciated your historical reading of 
how things developed at Fort Detrick. You know, I sat in a 
committee room here--it was probably 2013 or 2014.
    Well, I can remember reading, as a medical student, when 
smallpox was eradicated, right? In Ethiopia they had done the 
ring vaccinations, they isolated the last cases. ``We are going 
to beat this disease. We are going to wipe it off the face of 
the Earth,'' and then to find out--many, many years later I am 
elected to Congress and, oh, yes, we still actually have some 
stuff. And then, after being on this committee for a while, we 
had a hearing because the NIH just happened to have some in the 
back of the fridge that no one knew about.
    So when you went through your recitation of the historical 
development, yes, we--you can make mistakes. You can have near-
misses. And one of the things that really piqued my curiosity 
was you also said you have a system where it--what is almost 
described as a no-fault system for reporting near-misses. Did I 
understand that correctly?
    Dr. Hawley. Yes, sir. Yes, sir.
    Mr. Burgess. And do you--well, let's just explore that a 
little bit. Do you--is that something you think we can build 
upon, that type of system?
    Like at NASA, if you report a near aeronautical disaster, 
you actually get a get-out-of-jail-free card from the FAA 
because you properly reported it. Is that what you are talking 
about?
    Dr. Hawley. Well, locally we had a near-miss reporting 
policy and then reviewed those near-misses periodically. But 
what I am calling for--and I think some of my colleagues have 
mentioned--the need for a national database, so that we can all 
share and learn from what happened without any negative 
consequences.
    There is a lot of punitive action associated with the 
reporting of an incident nowadays, and that has a tendency to 
drive these incidents underground so they are never reported. 
And same with the near-misses, because of embarrassment or 
other reasons.
    Mr. Burgess. Right, and--or you don't want to end up in 
front of an administrative law judge somewhere with your 
credentials threatened.
    So I--Mr. Chairman, I hope we can explore that concept. I 
know we are not a legislative subcommittee, but I think that is 
so important. And the ability to have the database and to do so 
without penalty when proper reporting occurs, maybe that could 
have avoided some of the difficulties that we see now with 
EcoHealth Alliance.
    But I really appreciate your testimony today. It has been 
very instructive.
    Dr. Hawley. And to emphasize that--some of my colleagues 
have made, that monitoring should be done by an agency that 
does not provide the funding. Because to me, that is analogous 
to the fox watching the henhouse. Thank you.
    Mr. Burgess. Important safety tip. Thank you, sir.
    Mr. Griffith. And I suggest you lean over to your colleague 
to your right, who might have jurisdiction on the legislation.
    [Laughter.]
    Mr. Griffith. I now recognize Ms. DeGette of Colorado for 
her 5 minutes of questioning.
    Ms. DeGette. Thank you so much, Mr. Chairman. And I really 
have to thank you for this panel.
    The chairman knows I was the Chair of this subcommittee the 
last 4 years, and we have spent a lot of time talking about 
what to do about our labs. And I think all of you have really 
given us a lot of important food for thought.
    One of the issues that we have encountered, and one of the 
reasons why people are building these labs all around the 
world, it is important to do the research near where these 
viruses occur. Is that--Mr. Pekosz, you are nodding your head 
yes.
    Dr. Pekosz. Yes, there is such--especially when it comes to 
emerging infectious diseases and outbreaks, having the boots on 
the ground, having the local authorities not only be well 
prepared but having the facilities that can deal with this is 
incredible, because that is the way you can stop these 
outbreaks early.
    Ms. DeGette. Right.
    Dr. Pekosz. Once outbreaks get too out of control, it 
becomes incredibly----
    Ms. DeGette. You can't stop it.
    Dr. Pekosz [continuing]. Difficult to do that.
    Ms. DeGette. That is right. So Dr. Koblentz, everybody is 
focusing on you and what you are talking about, the biosafety 
protocols and so on. And you talked about the WHO and some of 
the other organizations that could oversee it. But a question 
that I have is when the U.S. is entering into partnerships with 
some of these countries, we could make a condition of our 
funding and our joint action that they meet certain protocols 
and also transparency. Wouldn't that be fair to say?
    Dr. Koblentz. Yes, that would be a good approach to take 
when we are working with other labs and helping them build 
their capacity, to also make sure that they have in place the 
right biosafety and biosecurity protocols.
    Ms. DeGette. If they want to work with our scientists--
which they all want to work with our scientists and get our 
money, right?
    Dr. Koblentz. Yes.
    Ms. DeGette. And so, let's see. What would happen, Dr. 
Pekosz, if we had a ban on some of the international research 
collaborations, as some of my colleagues on the other side have 
talked about? Not this colleague, but other ones.
    Dr. Pekosz. Yes. You know, it is incredibly important to 
have epidemic and outbreak research be created and shared in 
near-real time. And those resources, oftentimes, those require 
multinational resources.
    I run a center that actually does do surveillance both in 
Taiwan and in Zambia, and the importance of being on the ground 
there, training people, having a free flow of information, 
establishing trust networks between individuals are all 
critical in terms of being able to do these things effectively.
    Ms. DeGette. Now--thank you.
    Mr. Hawley, you talked about the lapses at the Wuhan Lab, 
but you haven't actually seen those lapses for yourself. You 
read about it in a report, isn't that correct?
    Dr. Hawley. That is correct.
    Ms. DeGette. OK. So the problem is--and this is the problem 
the chairman is talking about, and I just read an article in 
The New York Times the other day about this--China is not 
transparent in what is going on at its labs. So that is what we 
have to try to figure out, what to do with China, but also 
other countries too, so we can be assured that the highest 
levels of lab safety are met and so that we can make sure that 
we don't have--that we are not sitting around here 3 years 
later trying to figure out where the virus came from. And that 
is really the goal.
    So, Dr. Casagrande, I have got a little bit of time left, 
and so I wanted--I don't want to be partisan about this, but I 
do want to give you the opportunity to answer in front of 
everybody and on the record why funding the NIH and its 
oversight mechanisms are so important and, if we did have cuts, 
what that might do to our ability to monitor these labs.
    Dr. Casagrande. Yes. If you look at human progress over the 
last century, a lot of it has been due to biomedical advances. 
And the NIH is probably the premier institution in the world 
that has fostered those advances and led to the great expansion 
of life expectancy, quality of life, and reduction of childhood 
mortality.
    Additionally, if you look at the COVID pandemic, had this 
pandemic happened 10, 15 years ago, we wouldn't have been able 
to respond as quickly and get back to life as normal and to 
have our economy recover as fast as it did.
    So also, you know, because of the issue I mentioned, that 
the biosafety jobs are often funded on soft money, cuts on 
research will probably be hit somewhat hardest on safety staff. 
And so you might end up accidentally creating a less safe 
environment from that purpose.
    Ms. DeGette. And----
    Dr. Casagrande. Conversely, more funding--sorry.
    Ms. DeGette. No, that is OK. I was going to say we see the 
same thing with food safety, and this subcommittee has looked a 
lot at food safety too, because when you have our food being 
produced in China, you have to have the inspectors go over 
there. But frequently, that is one of the first things that 
gets cut because it is seen as fungible.
    Thank you, and I yield back.
    Mr. Griffith. I thank the gentlelady for yielding back and 
now recognize the chairman of the Health Subcommittee, Mr. 
Guthrie, for his 5 minutes of questioning.
    Mr. Guthrie. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
    Thanks for you all being here today. I appreciate it.
    And so, Dr. Koblentz, the first question. On the topic of 
high-containment labs, the December 2022 omnibus spending law 
included a provision requiring the White House Office of 
Science and Technology Policy to develop a strategy for 
maintenance and coordination of biosafety levels 3 and 4 labs 
that are federally owned and operated. You are familiar with 
this provision, and support it?
    Dr. Koblentz. Yes, I am.
    Mr. Guthrie. All right. So the question was, what is the 
current status of the implementation of this provision, and how 
will this help protect our biosecurity in these facilities?
    Dr. Koblentz. I'm not aware of the status of that review 
process, but I will speak generally about the need for a 
comprehensive review of the adequacy of our facilities at the 
BSL-3 and BSL-4 level, especially in light of our experience 
with COVID, in light of, you know, mpox and the other emerging 
infectious diseases that we see. There needs to be now a more 
rational conversation and review within the government to 
understand what are our capabilities and what are our gaps and 
what are areas maybe that are excessive and don't need to be in 
place any longer.
    And I think we have been growing this infrastructure for so 
long among multiple different agencies that we haven't had that 
kind of comprehensive, governmentwide review. So I do think it 
is time for that to happen.
    Mr. Guthrie. OK, thank you.
    And Dr. Casagrande, the omnibus only specified in this 
provision would apply to federally owned labs and operate--
federally owned and operated. I know you talked a little bit 
about this in your opening statement. Would it be helpful to 
expand this provision in any requirements developed in response 
to private labs, as well? Would it be helpful? And also, would 
it be appropriate to do so?
    Dr. Casagrande. Yes. I mean, as was mentioned by my other 
panelists, that--biosafety is independent of the funding 
source. It really depends on what are the manipulations you are 
doing, what is the pathogen you are working on. And so it 
doesn't make any sense to have such large gaps in oversight, 
support, guidance, et cetera.
    Mr. Guthrie. OK, thank you.
    And Dr. Koblentz, I know you are familiar with this because 
you authored the report, so I will ask you a question. On the 
BSL-4 laboratories, a group of international researchers you 
mentioned led by King's College London research that you 
participated in published the Global Biolabs Report 2023, which 
noted the number of BSL-4 labs across the globe grew from 69--
to 69 across 27 countries in 2022, up from 59 and 2021. So we 
mentioned that earlier.
    But the report further notes the key trend is that the 
number of labs handling dangerous pathogens is rapidly 
increasing around the world, but the boom has not been 
accompanied by sufficient oversight and raises biosafety and 
biosecurity concerns.
    So the question: As we look to ensure greater maintenance, 
coordination, and oversight of biosecurity research, how do we 
ensure we are promoting and requiring similar standards 
internationally, particularly at those facilities which we are 
partnering or providing funding?
    Dr. Koblentz. Thank you for the question.
    There is an international standard for biorisk management 
called ISO 35001 that could be adopted by labs around the 
world, whether they are BSL-2, BSL-3, BSL-4. These are 
standards that require labs to put in place a management system 
to ensure they are prioritizing biosafety and biosecurity. So 
there is a very readily available standard that could be 
adopted.
    What we haven't really seen is the resources being put into 
educating labs about this, providing the training, providing 
the incentives for labs to do this. And certainly, the U.S. 
Government could do that by making that a condition of working 
with labs in terms of capacity building or training that we are 
doing for public health purposes or for, you know, our 
biosecurity engagements.
    We could be making more of an effort to ensure that these 
labs are adopting these standards and working through internal 
organizations like the WHO to try and make that standard more 
of a universally adopted protocol within these labs, and I 
think that would provide a baseline that would definitely 
improve the level of biosafety and biosecurity.
    Mr. Guthrie. OK, thank you.
    And Dr. Pekosz or Dr. Hawley, would you like to comment on 
the question we just talked about? Do you have any--all right, 
Dr. Pekosz, have you got a quick comment?
    Dr. Pekosz. Yes.
    Mr. Guthrie. Yes, OK, yes.
    Dr. Pekosz. I think, you know, scientists around the world 
talk to each other about these kind of things. The organization 
of this becomes a political and a national discussion that 
really has to involve other parties. But I think there is 
willingness among scientists to talk to each other 
internationally about this.
    Mr. Guthrie. Dr. Hawley?
    Dr. Hawley. Yes. I like to go back to the root of the 
situation. I think what we need is an oversight organization to 
look at the laboratories in the United States. The composition 
of that organization should include some laboratory workers, 
some people from the community, analogous to the membership on 
an IBC. And I think, when you have this oversight, then you can 
start adding ISO 35001, as other people have mentioned, or 
other standards.
    Well, we really don't have any standards in biosafety, to 
the best of my knowledge. We have guidelines, the Biosafety and 
Microbiological and Biomedical Laboratories. That textbook, so 
to speak, is a risk-based approach to determine what kind of 
facilities, equipment, and procedures used for the type of 
work.
    Mr. Guthrie. OK, thanks.
    Dr. Hawley. So, to me, an oversight committee or an 
oversight organization to look at research in the United States 
would probably fill a lot of----
    Mr. Guthrie. My time has expired, so I----
    Dr. Hawley. [continuing]. Identified.
    Mr. Guthrie. Thank you for that. Thank you.
    I will yield back, Mr.----
    Mr. Griffith. The gentleman yields back. I now recognize 
the gentleman from New York, Mr. Tonko, for his 5 minutes of 
questioning.
    Mr. Tonko. Thank you, Chair Griffith and Ranking Member 
Castor, for hosting this hearing. And I thank our witnesses for 
joining us today and sharing their expertise.
    The issue of lab safety is indeed an extremely important 
one, and worth today's discussion. I greatly value the work of 
our Nation's scientists conducting research vital to protecting 
public health, and I appreciate the need for vigilance in 
ensuring that our labs are operated safely, ethically, and, 
certainly, responsibly.
    However, I remain concerned that basic science has become 
so politicized that we can't have a reasoned conversation on 
how to protect the public from disease without delving into 
unsupported conspiracies or unfounded allegations about what 
scientists are doing in America's labs.
    So, Dr. Pekosz, in your experience, have reasonable 
discussions over topics like lab safety become more difficult 
in recent years due to politics?
    Dr. Pekosz. I think they have. I think institutions remain 
vigilant. I think the laboratory workers remain vigilant. But 
sharing this information to the general public has met with 
some pretty harsh responses in many cases. And under the guise 
of transparency, I think there is a duty for our scientists to 
really communicate to the general public what we are doing and 
how safe it is.
    But some of the responses to those initial things have 
really been quite disturbing, and I think that causes 
scientists to really then go back into their shell and talk 
amongst themselves more and, again, not communicate out to the 
general public, which, again, is a self-fulfilling prophecy, 
right, in terms of then having mistrust or a lack of trust in 
those entities when there is no communication.
    Mr. Tonko. Thank you. And I certainly believe that what we 
do here in policy format needs to be science-based and 
evidence-based. Absolutely critical that that be the given 
situation.
    So Dr. Koblentz and Dr. Casagrande, you both stated in a 
recent New York Times op-ed that pathogens do not care about 
politics, and that we need to forge an informed, bipartisan 
path forward. You also wrote that, even though the weight of 
the evidence on COVID-19's origins points to an animal-to-human 
jump, we nonetheless should use the pandemic as an opportunity 
to examine current lab safety protocols.
    While I agree with that sentiment, it sometimes seems like 
some of my Republican colleagues continue to conflate 
legitimate issues about lab safety with allegations that some 
renowned scientists are somehow covering up the origins of 
COVID-19. So, Dr. Koblentz, why is it important that we move 
forward with the conversation about lab safety in a politically 
neutral and evidence-based way?
    Dr. Koblentz. You know, even if this pandemic had no 
linkage to any laboratory, we know the possibility exists that 
work with either a, you know, a naturally occurring virus that 
is brought back into a lab for characterization and 
understanding its risks to the kinds of work with potential 
pathogens that have been conducted previously, right, could 
result in an accident.
    And the fact that we know that is a possibility means we 
need to be doing more to try and reduce that risk and prevent 
the possibility from happening. And the fact that we can't rule 
out the role of the ones who do virology should also provide 
incentive for us to have better standards and oversight and 
transparency on these kinds of labs, not just in China but in 
the U.S. and around the world.
    So I think, for all those reasons, this is an important 
topic to be addressing, regardless of the specifics of the 
controversy you are talking about.
    Mr. Tonko. And Dr. Casagrande, would you want to add to 
that concern?
    Dr. Casagrande. Yes. I think, much like Three Mile Island 
kind of transformed our thinking about nuclear power and a 
series of aviation disasters transformed our thinking about 
aviation safety, I think this pandemic, like Dr. Koblentz said, 
just illustrates the potential consequences of an accident, 
even if it had no laboratory origin.
    And because the consequences can be so dire, investments in 
preventing those consequences on the order of aviation or 
nuclear power are definitely warranted. And that is not a 
political question.
    Mr. Tonko. And Dr. Hawley, in your testimony you write that 
reports on lab incidents must be--and I quote--``characterized 
by openness and engagement by all individuals,'' and you also 
shared that one of the best ways to reduce risks of an accident 
is by developing productive relationships with scientists.
    How can the politicization of science and maligning of 
scientists get in the way of efforts to improve biosafety?
    Dr. Hawley. Well, personally, I have spent a lot of time in 
the former Soviet Union countries looking at laboratories being 
funded by the Department of Defense in order to redirect some 
of the efforts of the former biological warfare scientists. And 
I have found that the development of interpersonal 
relationships, communications, and trying to earn the 
individual's trust and enhance transparency--and I think it 
begins with the development and sustainment and nurturing of 
interpersonal relationships. And to me, that is most important. 
And to the best of my knowledge, organisms do not have any 
political affiliation at the present time.
    Mr. Tonko. OK, we are there. I thank you.
    And with that, I yield back.
    Mr. Griffith. The gentleman yields back. I now recognize 
the chairwoman of the full committee, Mrs. McMorris Rodgers, 
for 5 minutes of questioning.
    Mrs. Rodgers. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    Dr. Koblentz, the United States scored 9 out of 10 on dual-
use research governance, while China scored 0. That is 
obviously concerning, given the dual-use research on pathogens 
as obvious military applications. Can you explain what factors 
led to the differences in those scores?
    Dr. Koblentz. Certainly. So the United States scored, I 
think, 5 out of 10 because our primary mode of oversight is 
through the NIH review of dual-use research and through the 
DURC Policy and through the P3CO framework. And so--and the 
United States also does awareness-building activities through 
the National Science Advisory Board for Biosecurity, and we 
have local stakeholder groups like the American Society for 
Microbiology that have codes of conduct and codes of ethics 
that govern the research being done by their scientists. So 
those factors are what gave the U.S. the score it got for dual-
use research oversight, which is better than most countries, 
but still not a perfect score by any means.
    In contrast, China doesn't have in place now any meaningful 
oversight of dual-use research. There is on the books a 
biosecurity law from 2020 that calls for the development of 
such a system within China. But those regulations have not yet 
been promulgated within China, and so there is no active 
oversight over the research that is being done to monitor and 
oversee it, and whether or not it is--poses any dual-use risks 
or not.
    So I do hope that that will be forthcoming in the near 
future, and we will certainly update our report when we do it 
next if China and the U.S. make progress in those areas.
    Mrs. Rodgers. OK. Thank you, I appreciate that 
clarification.
    Dr. Casagrande, for risky research involving dangerous 
pathogens, why is more transparency about biosafety standards 
and communicating best biosafety practices important?
    Dr. Casagrande. Thank you for the question.
    The communication of best practices is important because 
each lab has very--has thought leaders who are carefully 
considering the risks that they face and has implemented 
particular mitigations to address all those risks and make them 
as minimal as possible. This is often due to the creative 
thought and careful effort of these individuals. And though it 
is created to address risks that they have found personally in 
their laboratories, those same mitigations could be beneficial 
in many, many institutions. But people don't think of sharing 
those innovations and best practices.
    So understanding those and communicating those would enable 
everyone to benefit from them, instead of reinventing them over 
and over again. It would be a much more efficient use of labor.
    Mrs. Rodgers. Thank you. Would you speak to how it may 
benefit the public, more transparency and communication?
    Dr. Casagrande. Sure. The sharing of these best practices 
would benefit the public by, one, making sure our tax dollars 
are best spent on doing the actual research, as opposed to 
mitigating the risks of the research; and two, making labs 
across the United States safer without actually having to, you 
know, do trainings or anything like that. It would be just 
communicating all the great work that has already been done 
inside these containment labs.
    Mrs. Rodgers. Would you speak--would you give us your 
thoughts on what aspects of lab operations, lab safety could be 
made more transparent?
    Dr. Casagrande. Could be made more transparent?
    Mrs. Rodgers. Yes, specific--like, what aspects of the 
operations and the----
    Dr. Casagrande. Sure. Well, I think the public--as was 
mentioned on this panel, I don't think the public appreciates 
the great effort that is going on already, how much effort is 
spent on emergency response protocols, how much effort is spent 
on medical surveillance, how much effort is spent on, if there 
is an exposure, what those workers do, in addition to all of 
the engineering controls and equipment that is spent.
    People often conflate the concept of an incident in the lab 
to an outbreak. And in fact, there is an incident that could 
occur, and the vast majority of those are mitigated by the 
equipment and procedures in place and don't result in an 
infection. But if an infection were to occur, there's a lot of 
procedures in place to isolate the worker and monitor them so 
that they don't necessarily infect anyone else. So only a very 
tiny minority of workplace infections lead to secondary 
infections.
    And so I think, because there is a lack of awareness on all 
the different measures that exist inside U.S. laboratories, I 
think people often think that you start at spilling a flask, 
and then instantly you have a pandemic. And there's many, many 
steps in between those two that are mitigated by all the 
measures already in place.
    Mrs. Rodgers. So it sounds like the increased transparency 
could play a role in actually improving lab safety, also.
    Dr. Casagrande. Yes, especially the public's perception of 
lab safety. I don't think there is a good appreciation of all 
the efforts that are currently in place.
    Mrs. Rodgers. OK, thank you. Thank you all again for being 
here.
    I yield back.
    Mr. Griffith. The gentlelady yields back. I now recognize 
the chairman of the Energy Subcommittee, Mr. Duncan of South 
Carolina, for his 5 minutes.
    Mr. Duncan. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And I think, when we 
talk about transparency, the Chinese Government was not 
transparent about what happened in Wuhan.
    And I was amazed to hear Mr. Tonko talk about conspiracy 
theories. During the pandemic, things that were dubbed as 
conspiracy theories by the left were actually proven to be 
correct in the long run. The Wuhan virus was--originated in 
Wuhan, China. Whether it was natural or man-made doesn't 
matter. U.S. tax dollars did go to fund grants at the Wuhan Lab 
for gain-of-function research, and that was a conspiracy theory 
before and now it has been proven. So over and over and over, 
and I just want to push back on that.
    Dr. Koblentz, a year ago today you presented at a meeting 
held at NIH about oversight of research with potential pandemic 
pathogens. A section of your written statement dealt with the 
mishandling of the EcoHealth Alliance proposal and grant. You 
noted that EcoHealth's research project concluded in vivo 
experiments at the Wuhan Institute of Virology to determine the 
risk of wild bat-related coronaviruses spilling over into human 
populations.
    Hey, we saw that.
    This proposal was flagged by the NIH program officer as 
potentially involving research covered by the 2014 gain-of-
function funding pause. NIH included a requirement in the 
EcoHealth grant that ``if any of the chimeric viruses generated 
under the grant showed evidence of enhanced virus growth 
greater than 10 times that of the original virus from which 
they were created, the grantee must immediately stop all 
experiments with these viruses, and provide NIH and the Wuhan 
Lab's Institutional Biosafety Committee with the relevant data 
and information related to these unanticipated outcomes.''
    So wasn't the inclusion of the excessive virus growth 
policy a tacit admission that--by the NIH that such research 
could be--reasonably be anticipated to produce a virus with 
enhanced virulence or transmissibility, even if it was 
unexpected or unintended? Yes or no.
    Dr. Koblentz. Yes, I do think it could have been reasonably 
anticipated.
    Mr. Duncan. OK. Wasn't the proper course of action for NIH 
to take was to refer this proposal to the HHS P3CO review group 
to assess the risk and benefits of the research and recommend 
how NIH should proceed with the grant? Yes or no.
    Dr. Koblentz. I think that would have been--the appropriate 
method would have been to review--forward that proposal to the 
departmentwide----
    Mr. Duncan. I take that as yes. But the NIH did not make 
such a referral, isn't that correct?
    Dr. Koblentz. Correct.
    Mr. Duncan. Would you agree that NIH failed to properly 
monitor the conduct and outcomes of this research?
    Dr. Koblentz. Yes.
    Mr. Duncan. In year 4 of the EcoHealth grant, the Wuhan Lab 
conducted this experiment with humanized mice infected with 
chimeric coronaviruses, and there was excessive virus growth. 
EcoHealth did not stop the experiment and did not immediately 
notify the NIH, as required under the grant terms. Even worse, 
EcoHealth Alliance did not halt this research as required, 
since it reported in its Year 5 Annual Progress Report that, 
``We continued with the in vivo infection experiments of 
diverse bat SARS-related coronaviruses on transgenic mice 
expressing human ACE-2.''
    Doesn't this raise serious questions about EcoHealth's 
compliance with grant rules and show a breakdown of NIH 
oversight responsibilities over such experiments of concern?
    Dr. Koblentz. Yes, it calls into question implementation of 
the grant.
    Mr. Duncan. So there was failure for oversight of the 
grant, research was done on coronavirus that--in mice that 
could be transmitted to humans, there were a lot of mistakes 
made, and I appreciate your forthcoming with that.
    And with that I yield back, Mr. Chairman.
    Mr. Griffith. I thank the gentleman for yielding back, I 
appreciate his questions and now recognize the gentleman from 
Alabama, Mr. Palmer, for his 5 minutes of questioning.
    Mr. Palmer. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    According to an excerpt from reporter Allison Young's new 
book, ``Pandora's Gamble,'' a researcher from the University of 
Wisconsin nearly contracted a lab-created bird flu virus. I 
think that was in December 2019. The researcher was 
accidentally exposed, and potentially--to potentially 
contaminated air.
    And what concerns me is that, according to Ms. Young's 
reporting, the State and local health officials weren't 
notified about the accident. And I really think this is part of 
what we need to address in terms of oversight and more rigorous 
controls, is that not only do we want to make sure we don't 
have an accident like this, but if one does occur we don't sit 
on it.
    So I would like for your response to that from each of you, 
if you don't mind.
    Dr. Casagrande. I'll be happy to respond, Representative 
Palmer.
    So I think one of the things that we have noticed in work 
with containment labs across the U.S. is that they have 
different protocols for what happens after an exposure. And 
once again, this is partially because of a lack of sharing of 
innovations or best practices.
    In some cases, every worker is given a card that they can 
present to the medical system when they are exposed to an 
extremely unusual virus that that practitioner might not have 
ever seen in their life about treatments, about risks, et 
cetera, and then they can present that card directly when they 
present to the medical system. And that is an innovation that 
is not copied everywhere. And the reason why it is not copied 
everywhere is it hasn't been implemented into best practices or 
standards yet, nor communicated.
    There's also different rules about how you isolate at home, 
and what flu watch looks like, how often you take your 
temperature. And so these are the exact types of things that 
better ``standards'' or guidance could focus on, more specific 
guidance and standards.
    Mr. Palmer. In the article that you and your colleague, Dr. 
Koblentz, wrote, you talked about--that the U.S. has taken a 
reactive and haphazard approach preventing lab accidents and 
misuse of high-risk science. But--that is part of my concerns 
about what happened in Wisconsin.
    But you also made the point that the U.S. has more labs 
than any other country. Does the U.S. have these labs that are 
not located in the United States? Do you know if--when you talk 
about the U.S. has more labs, are they all located in the 
United States, or do we have labs elsewhere?
    Dr. Casagrande. All the labs we cover in our report, which 
are BSL-4 and BSL-3 enhanced labs, these are all U.S. labs that 
are in the United States of America. The United States does 
have labs overseas, but they are not in this category of BSL-4s 
or BSL-3-enhanced that are a part of this report.
    Mr. Palmer. OK. But given your concerns about research in 
the U.S.--and I had to step out, so I may have missed some of 
this, Mr. Chairman--but do you also have concerns about U.S. 
funding through grants or subgrants and the oversight that is 
applied to the labs where those grants or subgrants go?
    Dr. Casagrande. Yes. I would like to see the U.S. apply the 
same standards for biosafety and biosecurity that we have here 
with laboratories that we are working with overseas that might 
not be--you know, different countries have different biosafety 
and biosecurity rules, and this is one of the issues that 
becomes kind of complicated when you are trying to foster 
international collaborations. So it would be advantageous to 
try and harmonize those biosafety and biosecurity standards in 
order for us to facilitate international cooperation.
    But overall, I think it is the U.S. advantage to use our 
grants and collaborations as a way to try and increase the 
level of biosafety and biosecurity in the labs we are working 
with overseas.
    Mr. Palmer. It would help us do that if we had a really 
rigorous set of oversight guidelines that we could implement.
    And, I mean, you talked about the National Science Advisory 
Board for Biosecurity unanimously approved some safeguards that 
I assume haven't been implemented.
    Dr. Casagrande. They have unanimously approved the 
recommendations that have gone----
    Mr. Palmer. The recommendations, all right.
    Dr. Casagrande [continuing]. To the White House, and they 
are being considered there. But it will be up to the, you know, 
the executive branch, with the cooperation of Congress to 
actually implement the recommendations----
    Mr. Palmer. Well, the main point I would want to make, Mr. 
Chairman, is that this board unanimously approved these 
guidelines. And I think that is where we need to really focus 
right now for upgrading our biosecurity and maybe having 
something rigorous enough that can be applied through the 
grants and subgrants.
    Mr. Griffith. I appreciate that.
    Mr. Palmer. And I yield back.
    Mr. Griffith. The gentleman yields back. We will notify 
everybody that votes have been called. We are going to try to 
get our last two folks in before that happens, or before we 
have to leave, so that everybody doesn't have to wait for us to 
come back.
    Mr. Ruiz is now recognized for his 5 minutes of 
questioning.
    Mr. Ruiz. Thank you very much.
    As ranking member of the Select Subcommittee on the 
Coronavirus Pandemic, we have been looking at this very issue--
so, like, the issue of how do we balance safety with the 
necessity of robust scientific research so that we can prevent 
and respond to public health emergencies like the COVID 
pandemic.
    Hopefully, we can all agree that lab safety is essential 
and that there are ways to accomplish a safe lab environment 
without stifling breakthroughs in innovation and scientific 
discovery. I appreciate the testimony of our witnesses for 
highlighting some ways that we might accomplish those 
complementary goals.
    So Dr. Casagrande, one suggestion that you proposed in your 
testimony is to make sure that privately funded labs doing work 
with certain pathogens are subject to similar oversight 
requirements as publicly funded ones. Can you explain the 
importance of uniformity and transparency in lab safety 
guidance irrespective of funding sources?
    Dr. Casagrande. Yes. As was mentioned by the other 
panelists, the risks are independent of the funding source. It 
relates to the experiments that are being done and the 
pathogens studied. Also, it is--it helps level the playing 
field. The unification of standards helps make sure that the 
labs that are doing the most to be safe--and there's many, many 
safe labs within the U.S.--aren't--don't have a competitive 
disadvantage to the labs that are skating by.
    And so standards and--uniform standards that apply 
universally help level the playing field and ensure that the 
safest labs aren't disadvantaged.
    Mr. Ruiz. Thank you.
    Dr. Pekosz, as someone working directly in a lab setting, 
do you agree that there should be one set of biosafety rules 
that everyone follows?
    Dr. Pekosz. Absolutely. I think that funding sources should 
not play a role in terms of setting biosafety guidelines.
    I do feel that biosafety guidelines need to be very clear 
and precise, because there is an area where research with 
viruses such as influenza, something that is a common concern, 
might be conflated with research on viruses like Ebola virus. 
And it is important to note that there are very distinct 
differences between what we want to do in terms of our 
biosafety and how we want to monitor for those types of 
experiments.
    Mr. Ruiz. You know, in addition to that I am concerned that 
some of the bans and moratoria on research using infectious 
pathogens that have been proposed by some of my Republican 
colleagues do not adequately strike the balance that we need 
between mitigating risk while making sure we stay well 
positioned in safe labs to achieve scientific breakthroughs.
    So, Dr. Pekosz, do outright bans on research using 
infectious pathogens strike the right balance between the risks 
and rewards of infectious disease research?
    Dr. Pekosz. Absolutely not. I mean, not only do they slow 
progress of research, but they have ripple effects. Trainees 
that come through the laboratory are less likely to be 
interested in this type of research because they hear stories 
about people's research being paused, a Ph.D. student not being 
able to finish their research because of a pause that has been 
implemented, and that has ripple effects on their ability to 
want to go into this area and train.
    And I think we know from the COVID-19 pandemic we need to 
strengthen our public health infectious diseases workforce. We 
can't have people leaving them or being hesitant to go into 
that. We have seen the benefits that that has.
    Mr. Ruiz. So can you share some examples of proposals for 
lab safety improvements that, from your perspective, adequately 
weigh the risks of certain research against public benefits? 
And describe why they strike that balance correctly.
    Dr. Pekosz. I think it is important to note that, once a 
pathogen and a technique has been allocated a certain level of 
biosafety, that provides a large level of security for an 
individual. Experiments that were then done in those areas 
already carry with it a high level of security and a high level 
of safety.
    I think we have to realize that oftentimes the bar is set 
very high at the beginning. And when we see things later on 
that are happening--sometimes this gain-of-function research is 
considered that--oftentimes they still fall underneath the 
safety considerations that are good to protect the individuals 
that are working there.
    Mr. Ruiz. Well, let me ask you another question that I am 
grappling with, as ranking member of the other committee, is 
that--you know, how do we build the relationships or the 
influence, the incentives, or accountability structures to 
ensure that there is lab safety in other countries and some 
countries that may not be such allies with us, one.
    And two is those countries may very well continue with 
these other type of research, despite what the U.S. does, which 
may put us at a vulnerable position in the future if we ever 
need to investigate a virus that another country has 
investigated further.
    So how do we build the international structures to make 
sure that labs are safe all around the world?
    Dr. Pekosz. It is a challenging question, but I would say 
it starts with the scientists. The scientists communicate with 
each other quite well and quite effectively. If you start with 
that and build the consensus as to what needs to be important, 
what is important to be done, you can then work through the 
political system to try to get that implemented across board.
    Mr. Ruiz. Thank you.
    Mr. Griffith. The gentleman yields back. I now recognize 
the gentlelady, vice chair of the subcommittee from Arizona, 
Mrs. Lesko.
    Mrs. Lesko. Thank you, Mr. Chair. First of all, I want to 
say thank you to you, Mr. Chair, because this is such an 
important issue.
    And I want to say thank you to all of you, because it is 
absolutely vital that we pay attention to this issue. You know, 
my question kind of relates to what Dr. Ruiz was talking about, 
but I am going to ask it of Dr. Hawley.
    In 2014, the Obama administration paused funding for gain-
of-function research due to the risk and safety incidents at 
Federal laboratories that year. Then the NIH resumed funding in 
2017 for gain-of-function experiments shortly after NIH, as we 
have all talked about before, awarded a grant of this type to 
EcoHealth Alliance. Around $600,000 of that grant went to the 
Wuhan Institute of Virology.
    As you know, COVID-19 happened. We have had different 
hearings. It seems more likely than not, to me, that COVID-19 
came from a lab leak from the Wuhan lab. Dr. Redfield, the 
former CDC Director, has testified he thinks that there were 
gain-of-function research that was going on there and that we 
partially funded it. And Dr. Redfield actually told the other 
subcommittee that I am on and the COVID Select Subcommittee 
that he thinks we should put a pause on gain-of-function 
enhanced potential pandemic pathogen research until we know--
until we have a broader discussion of it, until we have more 
biosafety in place.
    What do you think?
    Dr. Hawley. It is just my opinion, ma'am, but I agree with 
your comments, and I think it is most important to have an 
oversight group to take a look at this.
    There are gain-of-function experiments that are very 
beneficial, and we have to have the appropriate panel of 
individuals--scientists and lay members--to look at that and 
evaluate that, and based upon--I keep repeating myself--the 
risk-based approach to see whether or not it will be 
beneficial. But I think we do need some sort of oversight, and 
there is no question about that.
    Mrs. Lesko. Yes, and since it sounds like, from what all of 
you said, there is no centralized location in the Federal 
Government for oversight and that some private labs don't have 
any oversight, should we, do you think, pause this very 
enhanced--I call it E-triple-P--research until we get the 
biosafety apparatus in place?
    Dr. Hawley. Yes. But again, I emphasize the fact that we do 
need to start with oversight.
    Mrs. Lesko. Yes, OK.
    Dr. Hawley. And we are trying that. There is precedent for 
not only oversight but community involvement with the Boston 
Public Health Commission, the liaison with the people in the 
community. They know what is going on.
    The Containment Laboratory Community Advisory Committee in 
Frederick, Maryland, has an interaction between the 
laboratories of Fort Detrick and the community members whereby 
we can openly have transparency, ask questions, publish near-
misses, and so forth. So to me, that is a form of oversight and 
gaining the respect from the community.
    Mrs. Lesko. Thank you. And my last question is for you, 
too, Mr. Hawley. You had mentioned earlier in your testimony 
that you don't think a Federal agency that provides grants for 
bioresearch should be the same one that is in charge of 
overlooking biosafety. I think that is what you said in so many 
words. Is that accurate?
    And are you talking about the NIH? That is my question.
    Dr. Hawley. I am not going to name any organization, but 
the bottom answer to your question is yes. I know, when I was 
at Fort Detrick as a command biosafety officer, we had labs 
internationally, and it was my job to go out and look and 
monitor those labs. So we did have oversight, even though we 
did provide funding.
    Mrs. Lesko. All right. Well, thank you very much.
    Thank you to all of you. Great communication--great 
information, I should say.
    Thank you, and I yield back.
    Mr. Griffith. I thank the gentlelady for yielding back. If 
there are no further Members wishing to ask questions, I would 
like to thank all of our witnesses again for being here today.
    In pursuant to committee rules, I remind Members they have 
10 business days to submit additional questions for the record, 
and I ask that witnesses submit their response within 10 
business days upon receipt of the questions.
    I further, in compliance with committee rules, would remind 
special advisers Kennedy and Jack that they may receive test 
questions, and we do expect those answers within 10 business 
days, as well.
    [Laughter.]
    Mr. Griffith. That being said, without objection, the 
subcommittee is adjourned.
    [Whereupon, at 4:15 p.m., the subcommittee was adjourned.]
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