[House Hearing, 118 Congress]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]







                VICTIMS OF VIOLENT CRIME IN PHILADELPHIA

=======================================================================

                                HEARING

                               BEFORE THE

                       COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY

                     U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

                    ONE HUNDRED EIGHTEENTH CONGRESS

                             SECOND SESSION

                               __________

                          FRIDAY, MAY 3, 2024

                               __________

                           Serial No. 118-74

                               __________

         Printed for the use of the Committee on the Judiciary

















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               Available via: http://judiciary.house.gov
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                 U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE 
                 
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                       COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY

                        JIM JORDAN, Ohio, Chair

DARRELL ISSA, California             JERROLD NADLER, New York, Ranking 
MATT GAETZ, Florida                      Member
ANDY BIGGS, Arizona                  ZOE LOFGREN, California
TOM McCLINTOCK, California           SHEILA JACKSON LEE, Texas
TOM TIFFANY, Wisconsin               STEVE COHEN, Tennessee
THOMAS MASSIE, Kentucky              HENRY C. ``HANK'' JOHNSON, Jr., 
CHIP ROY, Texas                          Georgia
DAN BISHOP, North Carolina           ADAM SCHIFF, California
VICTORIA SPARTZ, Indiana             ERIC SWALWELL, California
SCOTT FITZGERALD, Wisconsin          TED LIEU, California
CLIFF BENTZ, Oregon                  PRAMILA JAYAPAL, Washington
BEN CLINE, Virginia                  J. LUIS CORREA, California
KELLY ARMSTRONG, North Dakota        MARY GAY SCANLON, Pennsylvania
LANCE GOODEN, Texas                  JOE NEGUSE, Colorado
JEFF VAN DREW, New Jersey            LUCY McBATH, Georgia
TROY NEHLS, Texas                    MADELEINE DEAN, Pennsylvania
BARRY MOORE, Alabama                 VERONICA ESCOBAR, Texas
KEVIN KILEY, California              DEBORAH ROSS, North Carolina
HARRIET HAGEMAN, Wyoming             CORI BUSH, Missouri
NATHANIEL MORAN, Texas               GLENN IVEY, Maryland
LAUREL LEE, Florida                  BECCA BALINT, Vermont
WESLEY HUNT, Texas
RUSSELL FRY, South Carolina
Vacancy

               CHRISTOPHER HIXON, Majority Staff Director
         AARON HILLER, Minority Staff Director & Chief of Staff
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
                            C O N T E N T S

                              ----------                              

                          Friday, May 3, 2024

                           OPENING STATEMENTS

                                                                   Page
The Honorable Jim Jordan, Chair of the Committee on the Judiciary 
  from the State of Ohio.........................................     1
The Honorable Jerrold Nadler, Ranking Member of the Committee on 
  the Judiciary from the State of New York.......................     3
The Honorable Madeleine Dean, a Member of the Committee on the 
  Judiciary from the State of Pennsylvania.......................     6
The Honorable Mary Gay Scanlon, a Member of the Committee on the 
  Judiciary from the State of Pennsylvania.......................     6

                               WITNESSES

Terri O'Connor, Spouse, Slain Philadelphia Police Officer
  Oral Testimony.................................................     7
  Prepared Testimony.............................................    10
Pauline Fitzgerald, Former Police Investigators
  Oral Testimony.................................................    14
Dr. Joel Fitzgerald, Chief of Police and Emergency Coordinator, 
  Regional Transportation District
  Oral Testimony.................................................    15
  Prepared Testimony.............................................    18
Dr. Ruth Abaya, Attending Physician, Emergency Department, 
  Children's Hospital of Pennsylvania
  Oral Testimony.................................................    30
  Prepared Testimony.............................................    33
George Bochetto, Philadelphia Trial Attorney, Bochetto & Lentz
  Oral Testimony.................................................    38
  Prepared Testimony.............................................    40
Nick Gerace, Retired Philadelphia Police Officer
  Oral Testimony.................................................    52
  Prepared Testimony.............................................    55
Adam Garber, Executive Director, CeaseFire PA
  Oral Testimony.................................................    63
  Prepared Testimony.............................................    65

          LETTERS, STATEMENTS, ETC. SUBMITTED FOR THE HEARING

All materials submitted for the record by the Committee on the 
  Judiciary are listed below.....................................    93

Materials submitted by the Honorable Andy Biggs, a Member of the 
  Committee on the Judiciary from the State of Arizona, for the 
  record
    A certified copy entitled, ``The Mayor's Operating Budget in 
        Brief for Fiscal Year 2021,'' Jun. 2020, James F. Kenney, 
        Mayor, City of Philadelphia
    An article entitled, ``Remembering Philadelphia Police Sgt. 
        James O'Connor killed in line of duty 1 year ago,'' Mar. 
        13, 2021, 6ABC
    An article entitled, `` `Make sure justice is served': Slain 
        Temple police sergeant's family calls for death penalty 
        for suspect,'' Jan. 23, 2024, NBC10 Philadelphia
A document entitled, ``Major Crimes as reported to PPD: Major 
  Crimes as reported to PPD,'' May 3, 2024, Philadelphia Police 
  Department, submitted by the Honorable Madeleine Dean, a Member 
  of the Committee on the Judiciary from the State of 
  Pennsylvania, for the record
Materials submitted by the Honorable Mary Gay Scanlon, a Member 
  of the Committee on the Judiciary from the State of 
  Pennsylvania, for the record
    An article entitled, ``How Philadelphia reduced gun violence 
        in 2023,'' Jan. 18, 2024, The Philadelphia Inquirer
    An article entitled, ``Philly leaders encouraged by drop in 
        homicides so far this year,'' Apr. 30, 2024, NBC10 
        Philadelphia
    An article entitled, ``Carjackings significantly declined in 
        2 years, Philadelphia Carjacking Task Force reports,'' 
        Apr. 12, 2024, FOX 29 Philadelphia
    An article entitled, ``Philly DA sets up new unit focusing on 
        repeat gun offenders,'' Apr. 15, 2024, WHYY
    An article entitled, ``Number of homicides plummets in major 
        U.S. cities,'' Apr. 16, 2024, Axios
Materials submitted by the Honorable Matt Gaetz, a Member of the 
  Committee on the Judiciary from the State of Florida, for the 
  record
    A report entitled, ``Philadelphia 2024: The state of the 
        city,'' Apr. 11, 2024, The Pew Charitable Trusts
    An article entitled, ``George Soros's Prosecutors Wage War on 
        Law and Order,'' Jun. 22, 2023, The Heritage Foundation
    An article entitled, ``Philadelphia's Soros-funded district 
        attorney deceived court to get murderer off `death row,' 
        '' Mar. 15, 2024, Washington Examiner
    An article entitled, ``Guest Commentary: George Soros' Bad 
        Bet on Progressive Prosecutors,'' Jul. 14, 2023, 
        Philadelphia Citizen

                                APPENDIX

A statement from Douglas Murray, author, journalist, submitted by 
  the Honorable Jim Jordan, Chair of the Committee on the 
  Judiciary from the State of Ohio, for the record

 
                VICTIMS OF VIOLENT CRIME IN PHILADELPHIA

                              ----------                              


                          Friday, May 3, 2024

                        House of Representatives

                       Committee on the Judiciary

                             Washington, DC

    The Committee met, pursuant to notice, at 9 a.m., at the 
William J. Green Jr. Federal Building, 600 Arch Street, Room 
2A, Philadelphia, the Hon. Jim Jordan presiding.
    Present: Representatives Jordan, Gaetz, Biggs, Cline, Van 
Drew, Kiley, Nadler, Scanlon, Dean, Ross, and Ivey.
    Also present: Representative Meuser.
    Chair Jordan. The Committee will come to order. Without 
objection, the Chair is authorized to declare a recess at any 
time. We welcome everyone to today's hearing on ``Victims of 
Violent Crime in Philadelphia.'' The Chair now recognizes the 
gentleman from New Jersey to lead us in the Pledge of 
Allegiance. Mr. Van Drew.
    All. I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States 
of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one 
Nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for 
all.
    Chair Jordan. Without objection, Mr. Meuser will be allowed 
to participate in today's hearing for the purpose of 
questioning the witnesses and will receive five minutes for 
that purpose. So welcome, Congressman Meuser, to the Judiciary 
Committee for today's hearing.
    The Chair will now recognize himself an opening statement.
    When you do not prosecute bad guys you shouldn't be 
surprised that you get more crime. When you defund the police 
you shouldn't be surprised when you get more crime. When you 
have a designated area for illegal drug use you shouldn't be 
surprised when you get more crime. Philadelphia is doing all 
three of those things, and that is why we have seen the 
increase in crime we have seen in this great American city.
    When you do those things there are real consequences. Real 
bad things can happen when you engage in those kinds of 
policies. We are going to hear from witnesses today who will 
talk about the terrible things that have happened to loved ones 
within their family.
    At our field hearing in Manhattan we looked at the 
administration of justice and the safety of communities. The 
Committee continued to examine these principles with a field 
hearing in Chicago, and, of course, hearings in Washington, DC. 
Today, of course, we are here in Philadelphia to once again 
look at the administration of justice and keeping our 
communities safe. It appears Philadelphia is living up to its 
1969, what The New York Times said in 1969, the nickname, 
quote, ``Gang Capital of America.'' By the end of 2023, 
Philadelphia surpassed 400 homicides, and there have been 24 in 
the first 30 days of this calendar year.
    Manhattan, Chicago, Washington, and Philadelphia have 
violent crime problems. This is not the only thing they have in 
common. They all have soft-on-crime prosecutors who favor the 
criminals over the victims and their families.
    Since the current District Attorney for Philadelphia, Larry 
Krasner, began his tenure in 2018, violent crime, particularly 
homicides, have increased, with crime rates reaching a peak in 
2021. Philadelphia crime occurs so frequently and so 
drastically that there is a Twitter account, Philly Crime 
Update, to maintain a running database for the public to be 
informed of major crimes throughout the city in real time.
    Over the past year, property crimes, including retail theft 
and carjackings, have risen by more than 15 percent compared to 
last year. Retail theft has skyrocketed by almost 28 percent, 
while vehicles have increased by 72 percent, although District 
Attorney Krasner blames this number on flaws in the cars 
themselves instead of the criminals. Go figure.
    Simply put, Philadelphia District Attorney Larry Krasner is 
failing to prosecute criminals. Since his tenure began, 
Krasner's office has consistently declined to prosecute crimes 
in the city. In 2022, the Pennsylvania House of Representatives 
introduced a resolution to impeach Krasner for several of his 
policies that had caused the spikes in violent crime. Notably, 
the policies include not seeking cash bail for most cases, 
considering a defendant's immigration status in the plea 
bargaining process, and not prosecuting crimes like 
prostitution or marijuana possession.
    For instance, in 2016, before Krasner took office, the 
withdrawal and dismissal of violent crime cases accounted for 
48 percent of all violent crime outcomes. That percentage 
increased to 60, in 2019, 68 percent in 2020, and up to 70 
percent in 2021. Philadelphia's pro-criminal policies embolden 
criminals while victims fail to receive the justice they 
deserve.
    Krasner uses his office to crusade again what he considers, 
quote, ``social injustices,'' such as bail reform and reduced 
sentencing. However, his policies came at the expense of 
victims and lost lives.
    According to the Pennsylvania Commission on Sentencing, the 
number of violations of Uniform Firearms Act cases are 
initiated by Krasner's office but are ultimately withdrawn, 
dismissed, or prosecution discontinued in a disproportionately 
high comparison to other counties. Between 2015-2020, the 
number of violations of Uniform Firearms Act cases within 
Philadelphia increased from seven to 21 percent. In that same 
time span, the commonwealth's 66 other counties experienced an 
increase from 7-10.
    Additionally, those charged with a VUFA offense were 
charged with another offense within three years at a higher 
rate in Philadelphia compared to the statewide average. 
Further, the proportion of discontinued cases increased from 
seven percent in 2015, 13 percent in 2018, 18 percent in 2019, 
and 21 percent in 2020. It just keeps going up. By abandoning 
charges against VUFA offenders, Krasner's office has allowed 
more offenders who were recently arrested for possessing a 
firearm to return to the community without significant 
repercussions.
    We can see by who the Democrats invited to appear as 
witnesses at this morning's hearing that they will once again 
try to blame the guns, instead of the people who use them, to 
commit the crime. As we can see here in Philadelphia, when you 
don't enforce gun laws already on the books, new ones will have 
zero impact on the problem.
    Larry Krasner should not take all the blame for the crime 
gripping Philadelphia. Before Philadelphia's 2023 Mayoral 
Election, the City Council and the mayor caved to the far left 
movement and demanded to defund the police. For example, in 
June 2020, the City Council approved a $33.3 million reduction 
to the Philadelphia Police Department budget, with a commitment 
to reinvest the money in other areas of the community. With 
this move, Philadelphia joined other liberal-run cities, like 
New York, Los Angeles, Austin, San Francisco, Washington, DC, 
Baltimore, Hartford, and Seattle. In each of these cities, 
after drastically cutting police spending, crime rates continue 
to rise. Go figure.
    In Philadelphia, since January 2020, 500 people have been 
killed and more than 2,240 have been shot, which was a 40 
percent increase more than the police have ever seen or ever 
recorded. It is a recipe for disaster that this Committee has 
seen repeatedly in Democrat-run cities. Soft-on-crime 
prosecutors, mixed with elected leadership defunding the 
police, lead to disastrous consequences for the citizens they 
took the oath to serve.
    I want to thank all the men and women in law enforcement 
who work tirelessly to keep this city safe. Three of the 
witnesses this morning includes loved ones of police officers 
who tragically lost their lives while serving and protecting 
their communities. We should all take a minute here to thank 
our brave men and women in law enforcement for what they do for 
all of us.
    Thank you to all our brave witnesses for being here, and 
again, the Capitol Police, the Philadelphia Police Department, 
and the Federal Protective Service, and all the other law 
enforcement folks here for everything they do to keep everyone 
safe, day after day.
    With that I would like to--we are going to play a quick 
video, and then I will turn to Mr. Nadler for his opening 
statement.
    [Video plays.]
    Chair Jordan. We can all tell it is a serious problem.
    With that I would yield five minutes to Ranking Member, or 
whatever time you want. Our clock is broken right now, but you 
can take as much time as you like. The Ranking Member is 
recognized.
    Mr. Nadler. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Mr. Chair, today the 
majority has insisted that we go to Philadelphia, the fourth 
stop in a tour of cities that Republicans have selected as they 
try to distract from the fact that they have no meaningful 
solutions to make our country safer. Instead, they have 
repeatedly focused Committee activities on vilifying 
immigrants, dismantling common sense in gun laws, and pursuing 
wild conspiracy theories for which they have found no evidence.
    While I am always pleased to visit the great city of 
Philadelphia, and I have no doubt that we will learn a lot, our 
time would be better spent again back in D.C. passing bills 
that can help support Philadelphia and all our communities to 
be safer places for every American. We should be passing bills 
to invest in public safety and better law enforcement, bills 
that we know will saves lives from gun violence, and bills that 
address the root causes of violent crime.
    I know we can do it because we have done it before, when 
Democrats were in charge of this Committee.
    Philadelphia, like many cities, has not waited for House 
Republicans to change course. Many States and cities have taken 
action to address gun violence, to invest in public safety and 
law enforcement, and to address the root causes of crime, like 
homelessness and economic instability. Many cities' efforts 
were supported through the American Rescue Plan, which included 
$350 billion of flexible aid to State and local governments. 
Many States have pursued the same ideas that House Democrats 
have advanced to reduced gun violence, such as enacting extreme 
risk protection orders or expanded background checks at the 
State level.
    State and local governments have also received funding from 
the Bipartisan Safer Communities Act, which funded a range of 
gun violence prevention programs. All these efforts have begun 
to have a meaningful impact: Crime fell in 2023 and is 
continuing to fall in 2024.
    So far this year, Philadelphia has had 35 percent fewer 
homicides, more than a third less than it did during the same 
period in 2023. That is dozens of lives saved, hundreds of 
families kept whole. We know it is not nearly enough.
    I want to thank the families of victims for being here to 
share your stories. While there is less crime than there was a 
year ago, your stories are a reminder that we must always do 
more. Every life lost has a profound impact on both the family 
and the community where that person should still be alive 
today. While homicides are the most serious crimes, we know 
that other violent crimes also leave a lasting mark on 
individuals whose lives may never be the same. For every 
survivor and victim of violent crime with us today and across 
the country, I remain committed to doing more to help you and 
to prevent more people from experiencing what you have faced.
    Ms. O'Connor, there is no law that will bring back your 
husband. Mr. and Ms. Fitzgerald, there is no grant program that 
will ever bring back your son. I believe we do have solutions 
to prevent gun violence, including gun violence against law 
enforcement officers, like your loved ones.
    I appreciate the opportunity to hear from members of law 
enforcement, from those who have lost a family member to 
violent crime, and to those working toward lifesaving 
solutions. I just wish it were part of a serious effort on the 
part of Republicans to find bipartisan solutions to the 
challenges we face with violent crime instead of pure political 
theater designed to fit a false narrative about Democrats.
    If Republicans were serious about addressing violent crime, 
we would not be in Philadelphia but in one of their own 
districts. We have yet to have a hearing on victims of violent 
crime in any of the six States with the highest per capita 
murder rates, all who are led by Republicans, and all who voted 
for Trump in 2020.
    Nonetheless, I hope we can learn something today about how 
Philadelphia has achieved its recent reductions in violent 
crime and how we can further support its public safety efforts 
and the efforts of State and local governments nationwide. We 
know that this is not just the work of government or law 
enforcement, but that we must also include the work of 
community organizations, public health experts, educators, 
researchers, and more. It is only by working together that we 
will make progress.
    Let me end by saying a word in defense of one of the 
Democratic district leaders who have been slandered by the 
Republicans--district attorneys, I should say--my own district 
attorney, Alvin Bragg, who is the first in this country who has 
managed to bring to trial that serial felon, Donald Trump.
    I thank our witnesses for being here, and I yield back the 
balance of my time.
    Chair Jordan. The gentleman yields back. Without objection, 
all the opening statements will be included in the record. We 
will now introduce today's witnesses.
    Mr. George Bochetto is a trial attorney and litigator with 
Bochetto & Lentz here in Philadelphia. In 2022, Mr. Bochetto 
was retained by the Pennsylvania House of Representatives as a 
Special Counsel working on the impeachment of District Attorney 
Larry Krasner. We welcome you today.
    Mr. Nick Gerace is a retired Philadelphia police officer 
who served 12 years with the Philadelphia Police Department. 
Since retiring, Mr. Gerace has advocated for community safety 
and a greater emphasis on prosecuting violent criminals.
    Ms. Terri O'Connor. Ms. O'Connor's husband, Corporal Jim 
O'Connor, was a Philadelphia police officer shot and killed in 
the line of duty while executing a warrant on March 13, 2020. 
Corporal O'Connor was a 23-year veteran of the Police 
Department and served 15 years with the SWAT team. O'Connor was 
the son of a police officer. Terri and Jim's son is a 
Philadelphia police officer, as well, and their daughter serves 
in the United States Air Force. Thank you and your entire 
family for your service to the community and to our great 
country.
    Dr. Joel Fitzgerald and Ms. Pauline Fitzgerald. Mr. 
Fitzgerald has served in law enforcement for more than 30 
years, including with the Philadelphia Police Department, and 
was Chief of Police in Missouri City, Texas; Allentown, 
Pennsylvania; Fort Worth, Texas; and Waterloo, Iowa. Ms. 
Fitzgerald served in law enforcement for more than 25 years 
with the Philadelphia Police Department; Stafford, Texas, 
Police Department; the Pennsylvania Attorney General's Office; 
and the Tarrant County Criminal District Attorney's Office.
    One of the Fitzgeralds' children, Sergeant Christopher 
Fitzgerald, was shot and killed in the line of duty on February 
18, 2023. Sergeant Fitzgerald was an officer with the Temple 
University Police Department. We thank you and your entire 
family for your service, as well, and we feel for your great 
loss.
    I now want to recognize Congresswoman Dean and Congressman 
Scanlon to introduce Mr. Garber and Dr. Abaya.
    Ms. Dean. Thank you, Chair, and I welcome all my colleagues 
to our great city of Philadelphia. I thank the testifiers for 
being here today.
    It is my pleasure to introduce a friend and an advocate and 
a colleague, frankly, Adam Garber. He is the Executive Director 
for CeaseFirePA. I have known Adam a long time in his capacity 
as an advocate around reducing and stamping out gun violence, 
along with I believe we have CeaseFirePA folks in the audience. 
Thank you for taking the time to be here with us, and thank you 
for your advocacy.
    What CeaseFire does--and I know this personally because I 
was a State representative--is work with doctors, with 
advocates, with elected officials at the State level, trying to 
change legislation to reduce gun violence, and you have had 
some success this year since we got a Democratic majority in 
the Pennsylvania House. So, thank you for your tireless 
advocacy around these things.
    I also do want to just say to Ms. Fitzgerald, Dr. 
Fitzgerald, and Ms. Fitzgerald in the audience, there really 
aren't any words except to say that we are serious about 
reducing gun violence. We thank you for your service. We are 
sorry for your grave loss.
    Ms. O'Connor, to you as well, thank you very much for being 
here, for offering us your husband's story of service. I hope 
what we can do here today is find solutions, things that work, 
instead of trying to politicize what is going on.
    So, with that Mr. Garber is introduced.
    Ms. Scanlon. Thank you, and I do want to echo the remarks 
thanking our witnesses for being here today. Just to correct 
the record, Ms. O'Connor's husband was promoted to sergeant 
posthumously in recognition of his service, so I wanted to make 
sure that was clear.
    I would like to introduce Dr. Ruth Abaya. She is an 
attending physician in the Emergency Department at Children's 
Hospital of Philadelphia, and a scholar at CHOP's Center for 
Violence Prevention. She is also an Associate Professor of 
Pediatrics at the Perelman School of Medicine at the University 
of Pennsylvania.
    She received her BA from Bluffton University, which I 
believe is in Mr. Jordan's district. She got a combined MD, 
Master of Public Health from Northwestern University. She 
completed her residency at Boston Children's Hospital, and a 
fellowship at the Children's Hospital of Philadelphia. Her 
research focuses include gun violence prevention with 
particular emphasis on access to firearms among high-risk 
adolescents, as well as patient-centered approaches to 
prevention that draw on the experiences of the youth 
themselves.
    As a fellow at the Stoneleigh Foundation, she is working to 
create a registry of those who have experienced firearm 
injuries in Philadelphia, to identify the most promising 
practices for violence prevention and intervention in the city.
    Previously, Dr. Abaya led the Injury Prevention Program at 
the Philadelphia Department of Public Health, where she oversaw 
the development of citywide program coalitions, including a 
hospital-based Violence Intervention Program Coalition and a 
Cure Violence/Violence Interruption coalition.
    In recognition of her lifesaving work, Dr. Abaya was named 
the Philadelphia Eagles Inaugural Inspired Change Changemaker 
of 2022. She is a member of the National Medical Council on Gun 
Violence and has presented on gun safety counseling at the 
National Physicians Alliance's national conference.
    So, welcome to all our witnesses.
    Chair Jordan. Thank you. We welcome our witnesses, and 
thank them for appearing today. We will begin by swearing you 
in. Would you please rise and raise your right hand.
    Do you solemnly swear or affirm, under the penalty of 
perjury, that the testimony you are about to give is true and 
correct to the best of your knowledge, information, and belief, 
so help you God?
    Chair Jordan. Let the record reflect that the witnesses 
have answered in the affirmative. You all may sit down. Thank 
you.
    Please know that your written testimony will be entered 
into the record in its entirely. Accordingly, we ask that you 
summarize your testimony in five minutes. I think the clock is 
now working. I think that is the case. We are going to be a 
little flexible with time.
    Before recognizing Ms. O'Connor, I do also want to 
recognize we have a number of students from the University of 
Pennsylvania here today. We appreciate you all being here. I 
know there are some things going on on your campus that we 
don't particularly like, but we are glad that you are here. We 
are glad that you are here with us today, as well.
    Ms. O'Connor, you may begin.

                  STATEMENT OF TERRI O'CONNOR

    Ms. O'Connor. Good morning, everyone. My name is Terri 
O'Connor. My husband, Jim, was a corporal in the Philadelphia 
Police Department. He had 23 years with the department, the 
last 15 in which he worked in the highly elite SWAT unit. On 
March 13, 2020, Jim was shot and killed while serving an early 
morning, high-risk murder warrant.
    Our lives were forever changed at 6:09 a.m., when Jim was 
pronounced dead. I last spoke with him about 11 p.m., the night 
prior. It was my 45th birthday. He kissed me goodbye, wished me 
another Happy Birthday, told me he loved me and said, ``I'll 
see you in the morning.''
    I awoke to a phone call that Jim was shot, followed by 
police officers shortly after, escorting me to the hospital, 
where I saw my husband's lifeless body. It's a memory that will 
never escape my brain.
    How did this happen? I always thought Jim was more covered 
with larger vests, and protective helmets. Unfortunately, he 
was shot in the forearm and in a small area, near the left 
shoulder blade, where he was not protected. What I would soon 
learn next about the entire situation is a scenario I could 
never fully imagine.
    When Jim and his team entered the house that morning, they 
were immediately fired on. Approximately 12-16 shots were fired 
from inside that morning, two of which struck Jim. There were 
10 guns, along with endless amounts of drugs found in the tiny 
one bedroom the four men were hiding in.
    I should mention, a SWAT officer returned fire, striking 
two people in the house. At one point, a voice came from inside 
the room asking the police to stop shooting at them, because 
someone was shot inside the small bedroom. The officers then 
stopped, and had the men come out of the room, one by one. All 
four men, any of who could have been the potential fatal 
shooter, came out alive.
    I could speak easily for an hour about the lengthy criminal 
records these four males had. A month before Jim's murder one 
of the males was arrested and let out twice for drug dealing. 
He had three open juvenile cases and one previous arrest as an 
adult. He was supposed to be on a GPS monitor, which he wasn't 
wearing either time. He could have been put in detention, but 
instead under Larry Krasner he was released on his own 
recognizance and no bail required. He was charged as an adult 
with carrying guns while selling drugs, but due to the low bail 
that was set, he walked out easily both times. He had many 
other run-ins with the law over the past few years, and was 
described as a major drug dealer, a flight risk, and a danger 
to community. None of this mattered.
    The man that fired the shots that killed my husband was 
charged two years prior to Jim's death for carrying firearms 
without a license. He got nine--23 months in prison, but walked 
out of court that day a free man, because the court accepted as 
his prison term the amount of jail time he previously served. 
As part of the deal the district attorney agreed to drop two 
other charges, intentional possession of a controlled substance 
and a charge of carrying firearms in public. While on 
probation, three different times, this same male was brought 
before the judge on violations of parole, and the District 
Attorney's Office allowed him to continue being on probation.
    One year before Jim's murder, this same male was arrested 
again, this time for a direct violation of his probation. A 
newly assigned assistant district attorney told the judge the 
District Attorney's Office was withdrawing the drug charge. 
Allegedly the same month he was given the pass on the drug 
charge, this male committed a robbery and a murder. He was able 
to elude the police until March 13, 2020. In the months to come 
after, prosecutors would come to learn about five murders this 
male committed after he proudly scraped the names into his 
prison cell wall.
    Another male that was in the room was on parole at the time 
for a 2016 gun possession case, which he had served State 
prison time. The fourth male in the room happened to be wanted 
for one of the murders as the main shooter. Again, I could go 
on and on about this male and the many other arrests he had in 
the prior years, along with the rap sheets of the other three 
males in that room that fateful morning.
    That leads us to where we are today. We have a city in 
shambles. We have a district attorney who says crime is down. 
Well, obviously if you don't prosecute criminals, of course it 
appears that way. How many second, third, fourth, and even more 
chances are to be given? I have always said it seems to take 
something personally happening to your family to have people 
truly understand the repercussions of these lenient policies. 
The one thing that gives me some peace of mind with this case 
is that these men were charged federally. That gives us the 
best chance these men never see the outside of a jail cell ever 
again. They took away something from us that could never be 
replaced. and need to face the most severe consequences.
    I have a daughter whose father didn't get to walk her down 
the aisle at her wedding, a son who continues to follow in his 
father footsteps, trying to make him proud while raising his 
two daughters who will never know their pop. Then, there is 
myself. I became a widow the day after I turned 45. I have come 
to hate my birthday. We were 1 month shy of our 25th Wedding 
Anniversary, and I was left to figure out a life that I could 
have never imagined. I have said from the beginning, even if it 
gets me nowhere I will use my voice to speak out in every way 
possible to speak about how Jim's death didn't need to occur. 
My husband got up and went to work just to do his job. If our 
district attorney, prosecutors, and judges did their job, maybe 
he would still be here today.
    Thank you for taking the time to listen to my story.
    [Prepared statement of Ms. O'Connor follows:]
    
    
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    Chair Jordan. Thank you, Ms. O'Connor. Ms. Fitzgerald.

                STATEMENT OF PAULINE FITZGERALD

    Ms. Fitzgerald. Please allow me to share the last moments 
of our son's life, Temple University Police Sergeant 
Christopher Fitzgerald. They were captured on a Ring camera 
video. The date Saturday, February 18, 2023, is seared in our 
hearts and our minds. On that day, at approximately 7 p.m., 
Chris was on patrol in a marked patrol vehicle and engaged in a 
Bluetooth telephone call with his friend, before taking notice 
of the defendant and his cohorts. Chris focused on the masked 
defendant and attempted to stop the defendant.
    Chris was wearing a police bicycle officer uniform 
consisting of a two-tone neon reflective Temple University bike 
uniform shirt, with police patches and the word ``Police'' 
clearly identifying him as a law enforcement officer.
    Chris transmits over his police radio his call sign and 
that he is in pursuit. The Ring camera captures the defendant 
fleeing on foot, and moments later Chris catches the defendant. 
He can be seen and heard providing clear, articulate, and 
lawful verbal commands to the defendant to get on the ground. 
Chris is captured in the video using his training and the 
minimum amount of force necessary to bring the defendant under 
his control. He is attempting to make a lawful arrest.
    The defendant is actively resisting arrest, and he has 
already made the conscious decision that he refuses to 
surrender peacefully. In fact, you can hear Chris telling him, 
``Come on, bro.'' This phrase reinforces that Chris was using 
minimum force, and when it is obtained voluntary compliance 
from the defendant. The defendant made the conscious decision 
to refuse to surrender peacefully. ``Come on, bro,'' will be 
the last words Chris will ever State.
    The defendant is then heard saying, ``Why?'' This is the 
moment immediately preceding his decision to discharge the 
first of six gunshots to strike our son in the middle of a busy 
Philadelphia street. Chris neither beat the defendant nor 
utilized inappropriate force. Our collective professional 
opinion, garnered over approximately 60 years of collective law 
enforcement experience in four U.S. States is the subject used 
this as an apparent calculated ruse to distract and mentally 
disarm Chris, by feigning compliance and making him believe 
that he was going to lawfully surrender before viciously firing 
and striking him.
    Chris immediately falls to the ground, onto his back, from 
the defendant's first shot, which incapacitates him. He is not 
observed moving without external manipulation again.
    The next point in the video reveals the defendant's 
malicious and callous depravity. He stands over Chris, while 
incapacitated, and inexplicably makes the conscious decision to 
shoot him that states five additional times. Each of the six 
total shots are calculated fatal kill shots. They all strike 
our son in the neck, face, and head. The defendant 
intentionally ensured Chris' death by shooting him and striking 
him above the body armor. Those actions make it apparent that 
the defendant is highly intelligent, and his actions were both 
purposeful and calculated. He knew that ballistic vests failed 
to cover the areas above an officer's neck, and capitalized on 
that knowledge. He placed himself in the circumstances that he 
practiced for.
    The defendant's crimes could have stopped there, but as the 
video evidence supports they did not. He proves himself to be 
even more than a highly sophisticated criminal because he 
further diversifies his criminality, distinguishing himself 
from other dangerous shooters. He did not stop at the cold, 
calculated murder of the law enforcement officer. He commits 
two robberies using a firearm, doubling down on his nebulous 
achievement. He commits a carjacking as aggravated robbery, 
REAP, PIC, POW, VUFA, and a
plethora of associated charges. All his criminal acts occur in 
a heavily populated neighborhood, while onlookers and witnesses 
can never unsee the psychological trauma he inflicted and the 
physical jeopardy he placed them in. They were frozen, as they 
were frozen in their vehicles.
    The defendant elevates the level of felonious criminality, 
committing a robbery on a mortally wounded uniformed officer. 
The level of criminality, or pure evil, that it takes after 
shooting a uniformed police officer, this defendant then lifts 
my son's limp arm to access his pockets to rob him of his 
personal belongings. The defendant moves on to Chris' holster 
and firearm. He forcibly yanks it, with extreme force that the 
holster is moved from the right side of his body to near his 
zipper. He intended to kill a cop that day.
    While Chris lay mortally wounded, this defendant's criminal 
mind raced as he feverishly attempted to take his service 
weapon. It was not enough to possess the gun that already had 
our son's blood on it, the one used to kill Chris. He had every 
opportunity to flee the scene after the first shot disabled 
Chris but decided to rob Chris and the Asian male complainant 
he calmly carjacked thereafter. Only he can tell us whether he 
intended to sell the second gun or commit further crimes with 
it.
    The defendant displayed wanton disregard for law 
enforcement, and his indifference to human life is obvious. All 
the aforementioned behaviors occurred in a densely populated 
area in the presence of witnesses who were recklessly placed in 
serious danger because of his continuing course of criminal 
conduct.
    The only way to stop these murders of police officers is to 
enforce our laws and to hold those persons placed in positions 
to enforce these laws accountable. These criminals must be 
punished to the highest extent of the law to ensure that they 
are not free to commit those crimes again.
    There is no do-over when you take a life. Our loved ones 
are gone forever. The pain and trauma from our young son's 
family will be felt for generations. My daughter-in-law, 
Marissa, is now a widow, and must now raise their children as a 
single mother. This defendant broke a two-parent home, leaving 
our grandchildren fatherless.
    Thank you for your time.
    Chair Jordan. Thank you, Mrs. Fitzgerald. Said like only a 
mom can say it. Dr. Fitzgerald, your five minutes.

                STATEMENT OF DR. JOEL FITZGERALD

    Dr. Fitzgerald. It is pretty hard to followup my wife's 
testimony, but thank you, Chair Jordan, thank you to the 
Committee Members here today, in particular, those who are 
concerned about these soft-on-crime approaches in this country, 
and equally weak prosecutorial efforts, let's say, that have 
happened in this city and basically eviscerated a once noble 
police department, endangering the lives of all Philadelphians. 
We were both Philadelphia police officers for many years so we 
identify with what these officers are going through.
    In the case of the murder of our son, Chris Fitzgerald, the 
DA here in the city has displayed an incessant and transparent 
unwillingness to expose a person of privilege to the death 
penalty. This is a capital crime in the commonwealth of 
Pennsylvania. This consideration is what the DA gives a jury. 
He empowers the jury to consider death. It is on the books; it 
is the law.
    When you raise your right hand as the district attorney in 
the commonwealth of Pennsylvania you swear to uphold the 
Constitution of the United States and of this commonwealth. 
First, I would like to see if Mr. Krasner is here. I don't 
think he is, but he had every opportunity to be here. When he 
raised his arm and he swore, like we swore today to testify 
before you, to uphold those laws, he is not doing so when what 
my wife described meets every prong of a death penalty case. I 
don't care what your position is on the death penalty. What I 
do care about is that we uphold the law.
    The criminals in Philadelphia look at everything that goes 
on here. They watch TV, they listen to the radio, and they know 
that Krasner gives them a free pass. We, as a family--my 
daughter-in-law, my wife, and I--on the 24th day of this month 
had to present the various aggravators before the District 
Attorney's Office. We should never have had to do that. A 
District Attorney, in any State or commonwealth in the United 
States, should stand up for the families and the victims of 
violent crime, and those folks should also be the people who 
represent us and not have to be lobbied to do the right thing 
by law. We are not asking for anyone to die. We are asking for 
the rightful consideration to be given to an empaneled jury so 
they can decide what the fate is of this heinous murderer.
    This DA took almost one year to even take this preliminary 
hearing for our son's murderer to court, one year. Four 
continuances are allowed, more than allowing the defense to 
gather their information, on mitigators in this case, well 
beyond that, to let the press die down, with the hope that 
since we come from Colorado that we wouldn't come here. We are 
Philadelphian. We care about this city. We care about the crime 
that is going on. With all due respect to some of the testimony 
we have heard here already, this city is coming out of 
prepandemic crime numbers. I should say we are hitting 
prepandemic crime numbers. So, crime is down in many cities 
across the country, but what level of crime is acceptable? I 
beg you. It is certainly not acceptable to the police officers 
or to the community members who are latchkey and affected by 
the violent crime that keeps them in their homes, inside of 
neighborhoods, and don't allow them to enjoy the fruits of 
their labor.
    This prosecutor, Larry Krasner, ceded the advantage to the 
defense. He represents us, he represents my daughter-in-law, he 
represents my dead son, and he ceded the advantage to the 
defense attorneys.
    I will say this. It is unfortunate. He did a press 
conference yesterday, and he trotted out his supporters, many 
of whom are Black and Brown, just like we are. We are a blended 
family, obviously. He had religious leaders in the city who 
have traded the potential for justice and a more livable city, 
in this case for our son, as well, to either be silent or to 
advocate for somebody that doesn't do the right thing, to 
advocate for someone that refuses to thoroughly punish 
individuals who deserve it, to advocate for someone who opens a 
revolving door for criminals in this city, and around this 
city, to come in and prey on citizens, like the shooter did the 
night he attacked our son.
    That is the power of some of the, as I call it, regressive 
district attorneys out there, who mask their dangerous personal 
agendas and destroy hundreds of families, and they say it is 
under the guise of creating fairness, equality, and being able 
to bridge the disparate impacts that it has on communities. 
What about the impacts that it has on those community members 
who are actually affected by violent crime?
    Yesterday, if you were to listen to the testimony of Mr. 
Krasner and the pundits that he pushed up to the stage, it 
would have you believe that everything is OK. It is far from OK 
in this city. There are some great people working to correct 
things. Kevin Bethel is the new police commissioner. He is just 
like family to me. He is actually the person that encouraged me 
to become a police officer. I have every confidence in the 
world in him. What I don't have confidence in is that Mr. 
Krasner will align himself with the mayor of the city, with 
everyone in the city trying to reverse the negative trends of 
violent crime, and a true partnership and a meaningful 
partnership, because he is part of the problem. He opens that 
door. He creates the recidivist opportunities to attack 
Philadelphians.
    I realize I am running out of time, but I have to mention 
the vigilant efforts of the Philadelphia Police Department, the 
Temple University Police Department, and those who are out 
there every day and who keep their chins up. It is up to you, 
Members of the Committee, to help them keep their chins up, to 
keep bringing up the fact that prepandemic violent crime levels 
are still unacceptable. Yes, we have seen double the amount of 
homicides in some cities and triple over the last few years, 
but even in 2018, those numbers were greatly, greatly elevated 
from previous years. We have got to do something different. 
Philadelphia stakeholders have to do something different.
    I will close out by saying I hope the testimony helps 
citizens better understand that district attorneys and the 
people that they are able to push out in press conferences 
aren't necessarily representative of the city as a whole nor 
the feelings of citizens as a whole. We can conduct studies. We 
can do it now. I will help conduct those studies. We need to 
ask every Philadelphian, every Philadelphia stakeholder how 
they feel. We have folks that align themselves with a certain 
financier who facilitates this notion that cities, inner cities 
in particular, are safe, when I know that the residents in 
inner-city Philadelphia feel differently. I will help them put 
those studies together, and I will help them assess those 
results in a fair and unbiased manner. Thank you.
    [Prepared statement of Dr. Fitzgerald follows:]
    
    
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    Chair Jordan. Thank you, Doctor. Mrs. Fitzgerald, thank 
you, and Marissa, thank you, and Ms. O'Connor, God bless you 
all. Dr. Abaya.

                  STATEMENT OF DR. RUTH ABAYA

    Dr. Abaya. Good morning. Thank you to the Committee for 
inviting me to speak to you today. My name is Ruth Abaya, and I 
am privilege to serve as an attending physician at the 
Children's Hospital of Philadelphia, in the Division of 
Emergency Medicine. I have had the opportunity there to work on 
the issue of community violence through our Center for Violence 
Prevention, and I have had the past privilege, as you heard, to 
serve as the Injury Prevention Program Manager for the 
Department of Public Health.
    The issue of community violence is of critical importance 
to the patients we serve in Philadelphia. Violence has long 
been a public health crisis, with significant impact on the 
lives and well-being of each and every resident of the city, 
and with a disproportionate impact in Black and Brown 
communities with histories of chronic disinvestment. During the 
COVID-19 pandemic, Philadelphia and many cities across the 
Nation saw historic increases in firearm-related related 
violence. In 2020, firearm-related injuries became the leading 
cause of death for children and youth 1-19 years of age 
nationally.
    The impact of firearm violence is not just limited to 
patients and their immediate families. Research conducted at 
CHOP has demonstrated that those who live within a quarter mile 
of a shooting incident were almost twice as likely to come to 
the emergency department for mental health-related needs. This 
research also demonstrated that the closer a child's proximity 
to a violent injury, the stronger the effect.
    Our communities need true and lasting solutions to this 
crisis. Like many cities, we are seeing some promising 
reduction in firearm-related violence. However, 2023 remained 
above prepandemic levels. We must use this opportunity to learn 
more about what works to sustainably reduce violence and create 
resilient, thriving communities.
    I came to this work through my clinical training, where I 
often had conversations with youth who had expressed no 
expectation of living past their 25th birthday. Too often 
survivors would be returned to their society with no resources 
to provide an offramp to safety, hope, or healing, and no 
connection to strategies that could interrupt the cycle of 
violence.
    Community violence intervention, or CVI, is defined as a 
suite of evidence-informed strategies that aim to reduce 
violence through engaging the community, especially those at 
highest risk. Individuals or groups are then connected to 
critical resources and services such as employment and trauma 
healing, and to interrupt cycles of retaliatory violence. This 
work depends on the knowledge and expertise of critical 
messengers, individuals from community who have lived, 
experienced, and are well positioned to engage those at high 
risk in CVI strategies. Community violence intervention is 
powerful because it has the potential to impact those at 
highest risk of involvement in violence on either side of the 
gun, changing a person's trajectory and impacting their life-
long term.
    One CVI strategy that creates a bridge between the hospital 
and the community is Hospital-Based Violence Intervention 
Programs, or HVIPs. These programs are multidisciplinary 
programs that provide safety planning, services, and trauma-
informed care to patients with violent injuries. The CHIP 
Violence Intervention Program, or VIP, provides long-term 
comprehensive case management services to youths who come to 
the emergency department for a violent injury. This work 
recognizes the long-term physical, emotional, and social 
impacts of violence.
    HVIPs have shown potential in reducing exposure to repeat 
violent injury, supporting basic needs and mental health needs, 
improving psychosocial outcomes, and reducing exposure to the 
criminal justice system. This model is part of the CHOP Center 
for Violence Prevention's comprehensive approach to addressing 
violence and its impacts in our communities. Violence and the 
resultant trauma can occur at any points in a child's life, in 
a person's life, and the center does work with community 
partners around bullying prevention, addressing intimate 
partner violence, firearm safety and safe storage, and suicide 
prevention, all while pursuing rigorous research to understand 
the impact of these programs and strategies.
    The CHOP VIP program is one of several HVIPs in the city of 
Philadelphia which cover most of our Level 1 trauma centers. In 
my tie at the Department of Public Health we created an HVIP 
coalition that provided a community of practice around programs 
who are meeting the needs of violently injured patients 
throughout the city. In partnership with a similar coalition of 
violence interruption programs such as Cure Violence, formed at 
the same time, these programs form a critical part of the CVI 
ecosystem, defined as the city's violence intervention 
infrastructure, connecting stakeholders who work in various 
sectors to implement a comprehensive slate of strategies that 
address the dynamics of violence.
    Working with a community of practice holds potential to 
limit duplication, identify common best practices, and improve 
the quality of services throughout the city. Many of these 
models have a critical point in common. They all seek to engage 
those at high risk of exposure to the trauma of violence. A 
critical role for communities of practice is to work together 
to strengthen the local ecosystem so that this work is 
streamlined and impactful.
    I want to end with the story of one young man whose story 
exemplifies how life courses can be altered by the work of CVI, 
and why continued investment in this work can be so 
transformative. This young man was a survivor of violence, but 
he also had a complicated chronic disease. Between navigating 
his injury, contending with housing insecurity, and attempting 
to return to school, his physical and mental health were at 
risk. Through an HVIP, his violence intervention specialist 
advocated for him in the school setting, in finding stable 
housing, in securing his medications, in attending his followup 
appointments with his trauma team, and in getting connected to 
mental health services. These interventions likely saved his 
life and provided an opportunity to exit the harmful cycle of 
violence and find safety and health.
    Far too many survivors of violence could benefit from these 
powerful programs. The future of community violence 
intervention holds a great deal of promise for communities like 
Philadelphia, and investment in these models in the areas of 
programming and research can help cities build a sustainable 
path to violence reduction and community safety. We stand ready 
to support any such efforts.
    Thank you so much for allowing me to testify about this 
important issue, and I am looking forward to taking questions.
    [Prepared statement of Dr. Abaya follows:]
    
    
    
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    Chair Jordan. Thank you, Doctor. Mr. Bochetto.

                  STATEMENT OF GEORGE BOCHETTO

    Mr. Bochetto. Thank you very much. Mr. Chair and the 
Committee Members, good morning. My name is George Bochetto, 
and I have lived and worked in Philadelphia for the better part 
of 50 years now. I am a trial lawyer, and during my career I 
have handled many high-profile and important matters in courts 
all over this country including the U.S. Supreme Court. I was 
also engaged as the lead attorney to handle the impeachment 
process for Larry Krasner in the Pennsylvania House of 
Representatives in 2022.
    It is truly an honor to be invited to give testimony to 
this Committee on this most important topic, and I thank Chair 
Jordan for the opportunity.
    Larry Krasner took over the District Attorney's Office in 
2018. What followed was an unprecedented explosion of crime and 
violence. Through a combination of progressive policies and 
endless incompetence, Krasner has actively encouraged criminal 
behavior. In Krasner's first term in office the murder rate in 
Philadelphia increased by 78 percent, and I would wish to point 
out that when we note currently about the reduction in the 
murder rate, we are talking about a reduction from an 
unprecedented explosion of murders in this city, and the 
reduction level is still outrageous.
    In a single year 562 human beings had their lives stolen 
from them, and it is predictably the result of these nihilistic 
policies that Larry Krasner has implemented. Who they impact, 
more than anybody, are the so-called persons who he is trying 
to protect, the minorities and the poor communities. Those are 
where the impacts are felt the heaviest.
    I got involved many years ago in a case with Larry Krasner 
in perhaps the most notorious case in Philadelphia's history, 
the killing of Officer Daniel Faulkner, by one Mumia Abu Jamal, 
who admitted to the killing, was tried by a jury, and was 
convicted with overwhelming evidence.
    Since that time, some 30 years ago, Mr. Jamal has filed a 
series of appeals and repeat motions in an effort to gain his 
release from prison, and he was singularly unsuccessful until 
Mr. Krasner took office. During that time, Mr. Krasner had the 
fifth PCRA appeal filed by Abu Jamal, and literally ignored the 
filing, missed briefing deadlines, and told prosecutors to 
stand down. He was literally tanking the case to set free 
perhaps the most notorious killer in Philadelphia's history, 
and a killer, by the way, who was notorious internationally.
    I was engaged by Maureen Faulkner, Danny Faulkner's widow, 
and I filed an emergency petition in the Pennsylvania Supreme 
Court, known as a Kings Bench Petition. I bypassed the trial 
level, I bypassed the appellate level, and I went right to the 
Supreme Court, because of the seriousness of what was taking 
place. I pointed out to the Supreme Court the terrible, 
irreconcilable conflicts of interest that Larry Krasner had in 
trying to tank this conviction. Thank God the Supreme Court 
stepped in and we now continue to maintain Mr. Jamal where he 
belongs, in prison.
    There are so many other cases that I can point to and give 
you examples of individuals who committed crimes, violent 
crimes, who are allowed to go free on bail, who were released 
on their own recognizance, who were violating the Uniform 
Firearms Act, and are back on the streets, committing murders 
in this city, committing carjackings, committed violent crimes, 
and this is all directly as a result of Mr. Krasner's policies. 
I would be happy, during the questioning period, to detail 
exactly how some of those came about.
    Let me just also say this. It is not just that Mr. Krasner 
has taken on himself to be derelict in his responsibilities in 
violent crimes and murder cases. He also regards himself as a 
one-man legislature. In Pennsylvania, we have laws against 
prostitution, and those laws are designed to help drug-addicted 
young women, who are victims of human trafficking and abuse. 
Larry Krasner has taken it on himself, and has issued a 
memorandum to his staff, we will no longer, in Philadelphia, 
prosecute prostitution. He overruled the Pennsylvania 
legislature in one fell swoop, and no one has challenged him on 
it. Well, we challenged him in the impeachment proceedings.
    Theft is also a crime in Pennsylvania, but in Philadelphia 
you can steal up to $500 in a convenience store, a Wawa, or a 
department store and you will not be prosecuted. This is the 
one-man legislature of Larry Krasner, and it has led to a 
lawlessness, a street crime, and a level of disrespect that 
affects everybody's quality of life, and begs the criminals to 
become more emboldened and more dangerous on our streets.
    I am here because I have dedicated my professional career 
to due process and the rule of law, and I can tell you, being 
in the trenches, working in this city directly, one on one, 
with the Krasner Administration, the idea of due process of law 
and rule of law are abused, ignored, and disregarded, and it 
needs to stop.
    Thank you so much for hearing me out.
    [Prepared statement of Mr. Bochetto follows:]
    
    
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    Chair Jordan. Thank you. Mr. Garber.

                    STATEMENT OF ADAM GARBER

    Mr. Garber. Good morning, and thank you, Chair Jordan, 
Ranking Member Nadler, and the Members of the U.S. House 
Judiciary Committee. Thanks for visiting Philadelphia and 
discussing how we can make this community and other communities 
safer.
    As the Executive Director for CeaseFirePA, we are the 
commonwealth gun violence prevention organization, and our team 
includes gun owners who believe responsible gun ownership and 
gun safety laws go hand in hand, survivors of this crisis, 
doctors who have treated wounds in the emergency rooms, parents 
who worry about their children, and faith leaders who counsel 
families at the worst moments of their lives.
    I made my home in Philadelphia 17 years ago. I ride SEPTA 
nearly every day, often with my five-year-old child, and 
commute around the city, including today.
    As you have heard, we saw an enormous spike in gun violence 
and violence in crime over the beginnings of the pandemic. A 
thousand more residents died from gunfire during that time. 
Contrary to public perception, criminal activity and drugs were 
not the primary drivers of this violence. A review of more than 
2,000 shootings by law enforcement, public health experts, 
courts, and other public safety experts found arguments were 
responsible for 50 percent of all shootings. Drug trafficking 
was only 18 percent.
    This also aligns with what we know about widespread firearm 
access. It can turn everyday interpersonal conflicts into fatal 
accidents, including arguments on SEPTA buses, sitting in a 
car, and in a very sad Philadelphia incident, while waiting for 
a cheesesteak during the pandemic in 2021. Social media further 
amplifies this conflict, especially among the city's youth.
    It is worth noting, as we talk here, that this same problem 
is playing out in other communities across the commonwealth, 
even at higher rates. In 2022, the city of York had a higher 
homicide rate per capital than Philadelphia.
    Violence is going down, though. Gun homicides dropped in 
2023 by 22 percent in Philadelphia, and for the current year 
they have dropped another 44 percent compared to the same time 
period in 2023. We are on pace for less than 300 homicides, and 
while each of those is an awful catastrophe that we must still 
do more to prevent, it shows we are headed in the right 
direction.
    Three things are driving the reversal: First, the emotional 
and mental strength the pandemic receded. Second, gun sales 
began to subside. There were more than four million firearm 
transfers from 2020-2022 in Pennsylvania. Last and most 
importantly, thanks to the American Rescue Plan, the Bipartisan 
Safer Communities Act, and State-level funding there was a 
historic investment in community-based violence prevention 
programs. Those use trusted messengers to deescalate conflict, 
help victims recover after shootings, stopping retaliations. 
Statewide, more than $200 million was given to district 
attorneys, local law enforcement, and nonprofits to address the 
crisis. In the case of Philadelphia, the city's Group Violence 
Prevention Program received funding, and groups that were 
involved in that program were 38 percent less likely to be 
involved in shootings than those that were not.
    Still, we must do more about this crisis, as we have heard 
today, and this Committee, Congress, and the PA General 
Assembly has a critical part to play. There are multiple 
popular, bipartisan gun safety policies to prevent a shooting 
before it happens, rather than more victims being created and 
punt afterwards. Three already passed the Pennsylvania House of 
Representatives with bipartisan support: Universal background 
checks, extreme risk protection orders, and banning ghost guns. 
Ghost guns are the IKEA of firearms. You can order them online, 
they are mostly built, and in less than an hour, with simple 
tools and no significant expertise put together a firearm as 
deadly as any you would buy at a dealer.
    In September 2022, rec center worker Tiffany Fletcher was 
killed with one, and it has become a lucrative business for gun 
traffickers in the area. In Montgomery County, a trio was 
making a profit by turning ghost gun kits into firearms and 
then selling them. A few weeks ago, House Bill 777, to treat 
ghost guns like other firearms requiring background checks and 
serialization, passed with bipartisan support, including 
Representative Martina White, the former head of the 
Philadelphia GOP and Majority Caucus Secretary.
    A second pathway for firearms used in violent crimes are 
stolen or lost firearms. As the Cambria County's district 
attorney recently told media, ``There are lots of stolen guns 
floating around. They show up on crime scenes on a very regular 
basis.''
    Stolen guns also rose in conjunction with the rising 
violence being discussed today, climbing 38 percent between 
2019-2021 in Philadelphia. There is no requirement that you 
report your missing weapon if it goes away, if you lose it, or 
if it is stolen. Responsible firearm owners do report their 
missing firearms. It is the irresponsible ones, and those 
intent on trafficking guns that do not, and Congress can make 
it a requirement.
    Last, we should talk about where these guns are always 
coming from. If a health inspector didn't show up at your 
favorite restaurant for years, even a decade, you would be much 
more likely to get food poisoning or find rats, because 
inspectors help ensure everyone follows the safety guidelines. 
Unfortunately, licensed firearm dealers operate in a world 
where they are inspected every 5-7 years by ATF. Most dealers 
will have few problems with these inspections. They work hard 
to ensure their weapons are not at crime scenes, even 
cooperating with law enforcement around suspicious purposes.
    Sn analysis by the Brady Campaign and PA's Track and Trace 
Program, which was designed to help law enforcement prevent the 
trafficking that is enabling all this violent crime, found that 
50 percent of recovered crime guns in the commonwealth came 
from only one percent of dealers. The U.S. Congress needs to 
enforce resources in the cornerstone of our public safety 
system to help law enforcement prevent the trafficking that is 
enabling this violence.
    The responsibility of this crisis rests with the General 
Assembly and the U.S. Congress, who have the ability and 
responsibility to address the firearms used in violent crimes. 
You must continue funding for effective community-based 
programs that help prevent shootings and retaliations and 
strengthen gun safety laws to keep firearms from individuals 
intent on doing harm, show gun trafficking, and support law 
enforcement efforts to address it. It will save even more 
lives. Thank you.
    [Prepared statement of Mr. Garber follows:]
    
    
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    Chair Jordan. Thank you. Mr. Gerace.

                    STATEMENT OF NICK GERACE

    Mr. Gerace. Good morning ladies and gentlemen, and thre 
Committee Members. Today, I would like to draw your attention 
to the failures of District Attorney Larry Krasner, or as we 
know him, ``Let 'em Go'' Larry Krasner, in Philadelphia. Over 
the past few years, Krasner's radical progressive policies have 
had devastating consequences, leading to a rise in violent 
crime and endangering the lives of innocent citizens.
    One of the most concerning aspects of Krasner's tenure is 
his approach to criminal justice, which has resulted in the 
release of violent inmates who have gone on to commit heinous 
crimes, crimes that we have heard today. He prioritizes the 
pursuit of his ideological agenda over public safety. ``Let 'em 
Go Larry'' has put the lives of Philadelphia residents at risk, 
or Uncle Larry as the criminal underground in Philadelphia 
refers to him, so lovingly. The tragic fact is that multiple 
individuals have lost their lives due to the dangerous 
individuals he has allowed back into the community.
    Moreover, the city of Philadelphia has experienced a 
significant increase in violent crime under Krasner's failed 
leadership. Over the past 6 years, the city has seen a 
troubling surge in homicides, shootings, and violent offenses. 
This alarming trend is a direct result of Krasner's misguided 
policies that have failed to effectively address and deter 
criminal activity.
    Philadelphia has been significantly affected by the 
increase in violent crime under District Attorney Larry 
Krasner's policies. The rise in violent crime has had several 
consequences for the city and its residents, including:
    Loss of lives. As was mentioned earlier today, this year we 
are down about a dozen homicides. Twelve bodies, I say, would 
be a lot. It is a good increase, right. I think we could all 
agree on that. So, what is it to be said when one person has 
murdered more than 12 people? One person is the result of the 
death of the murder of more than 12 people. I don't have the 
exact numbers, but it is a lot more than 12 people. Because of 
Larry Krasner, more than 12 people are dead today, and there 
are some of them, their family members are talking on this 
panel right now. One is too much. One is too much. He is a 
serial killer by proxy. It is his policies that are killing the 
residents of Philadelphia. The increase in violent crime, 
particularly homicides and shootings, has resulted in a tragic 
loss of lives in Philadelphia. This loss of life has a 
devastating impact on families and communities, causing immense 
grief and trauma, which we have all witnessed here today.
    Fear and insecurity. The rise in violent crime has created 
a climate of fear and insecurity among Philadelphia residents. 
People are concerned about their safety and the safety of their 
loved ones, which can lead to a decrease in community trust and 
engagement. I encourage everybody up on the Committee board, 
walk around Philadelphia for yourself and talk to 
Philadelphians. Pick them by will and you will hear these 
sentiments by all of them. It doesn't matter what race, creed, 
color, or background. You will hear these sentiments.
    Disruption of daily life. The prevalence of violent crime 
can disrupt the daily lives of Philadelphia residents. It may 
discourage people from going out at night, limit their 
participation in community activities, and affect the vitality 
of public spaces.
    Economic impact. I would say he had a more devastating 
impact to Philadelphia than COVID has. The increase in violent 
crime can have an economic impact on Philadelphia. Businesses 
may be hesitant to invest or expand in areas with high crime 
rates, and tourism may decline due to safety concerns. This can 
result in a loss of job opportunities and economic growth for 
the city, not just in violent areas. Go downtown Philadelphia, 
the pearl of the city. Go look at all the businesses that are 
boarded up. That is a direct link to Larry Krasner and the 
crime that is going on. During the riots, 2,000 protesters were 
arrested, and with a wave of his scepter he got rid of those 
prosecutions. They were all gone.
    Do you know who got prosecuted, though? The Philadelphia 
Police Department. Went after Lieutenant Joe Bologna, one of 
the most respected officers in the Police Department for a 
lawful arrest that he was committing. He dragged that man 
through the mud, and every time he went to court he got laughed 
out of court and thrown away, and his district attorneys were 
reprimanded, because it is a joke. If it wasn't so serious it 
would be a joke.
    Strained community relations. The rise in violent crime can 
strain relations between different communities within 
Philadelphia. It can lead to increased tension and mistrust 
among residents, making it harder to build strong and cohesive 
communities.
    It is deeply concerning that Krasner harbors a very strong 
animosity--and I would say severe hatred toward the 
Philadelphia Police Department. His personal vendetta against 
the police has created a hostile environment and hindered the 
collaborative efforts needed to maintain law and order. By 
undermining the very institution responsible for protecting our 
communities, Krasner has compromised the safety of Philadelphia 
residents and hindered the police's ability to effectively 
carry out their duties.
    In conclusion, District Attorney Larry Krasner's radical 
progressive policies have proven to be a disastrous failure for 
the city of Philadelphia. His ill-conceived approach to 
criminal justice has resulted in the release of violent 
offenders, leading to tragic consequences for innocent 
citizens, and our police officers and law enforcement 
community. The alarming increase in violent crime over the past 
six years is a testament to his failed leadership. Furthermore, 
Krasner's antagonistic stance toward the Philadelphia Police 
Department has only further exacerbated the challenges faced by 
law enforcement in keeping our communities safe.
    Thank you.
    [Prepared statement of Mr. Gerace follows:]
    
    
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    Chair Jordan. Thank you. We will now proceed with questions 
under the five-minute rule. The Chair recognizes the Chair of 
the Subcommittee on Crime of the Judiciary Committee, the 
gentleman from Arizona, Mr. Biggs.
    Mr. Biggs. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank you to all the 
witnesses for being here today, for your poignant testimony, 
and we appreciate you coming out and testifying.
    I am going to just kind of go with some questions that came 
to my mind as I was listening to your testimony, and I want to 
just make this statement here. The health inspector analogy 
really does not work well for you, because the health inspector 
goes in and finds a lot of violations, and then turns around 
and walks out. Guess what you have? You have got more food 
poisonings, more illness that comes, and that seems to be what 
is happening here.
    So I will talk with you, Dr. Fitzgerald, first. Is that 
what is happening here? If you analogize that, if Larry Krasner 
is analogized to the health inspector, is he letting people go? 
Is he letting these violations go, which is resulting in more 
problems for the city, more crime in the city?
    Dr. Fitzgerald. In my belief that is a correct assessment. 
When a district attorney fires tenured attorneys in his office, 
which is their prerogative. He is an elected district attorney 
and he can hire and fire whoever he would like. However, he 
lost intellectual capital within the District Attorney's Office 
and the ability to therefore put the best cases together and 
prosecute offenders that deserve prosecution. Rookie district 
attorneys are now plea bargaining cases down, and that is 
affecting everyone in Philadelphia. So yes, it is analogous to 
a pest inspector who fails to perform their duties and allows, 
in essence, the city to be infested.
    Mr. Biggs. Thank you. Mr. Bochetto, when we talk about the 
criminal justice system there are reasons that you prosecute 
individuals. They include specific deterrence, general 
deterrence, restitution, the society's need for retribution and 
justice. The policies that you wanted to talk about with regard 
to Larry Krasner, please tell us, do they further specific 
deterrence when he is letting people out on cashless bail?
    Mr. Bochetto. Quite the opposite. Larry Krasner's policies 
have literally been a license to commit further crimes, further 
lawlessness, and further terrorize the citizens of 
Philadelphia.
    I couldn't help but note that your question about the 
health examiner walking into a restaurant and not prosecuting 
or enforcing a regulation that concerns the safety of its 
patrons. That is exactly what is going on with Larry Krasner. 
How do you let people walk into store, steal hundreds of 
dollars' worth of merchandise, oftentimes from a single owner 
bodega or that type of thing, how do you let them walk in, 
steal things, and walk out scot-free? That is lawlessness. It 
is craziness. It is emboldening these criminals to be more and 
more violent and more and more aggressive against our 
citizenry.
    I want to say, hopefully help is on the way. We have a new 
mayor in Philadelphia. Her name is Cherelle Parker. She is 
extremely capable and street smart, and she has avowed not to 
put up with this kind of craziness.
    The problem is that she cannot control what Larry Krasner 
prosecutes, or fails to prosecute, and unfortunately, no matter 
how much a mayor wants to pitch in, to the extent that we have 
a district attorney who issues memos to his line DAs, you will 
not prosecute this crime--we have it in writing; there are 
memos--it is an outrage.
    Mr. Biggs. So, Ms. and Dr. Fitzgerald, whoever wants to 
take this question, there are standards that govern the death 
penalty cases in Pennsylvania, and if you file your petition 
requesting a death penalty, you present those aggravating 
factors to a jury, they are the ones to make the determination 
on death penalty.
    What has been the process that you have engaged in with 
regard to the death penalty application, and what is Mr. 
Krasner and his team, how have they responded to your efforts 
and the process you have gone through?
    Dr. Fitzgerald. So, in this process, sir--and thank you for 
the question--the office, after our petitioning the office to 
discuss with us what their intent was to pursue either the 
death penalty or not to, in our son's case, they invited us in 
to make our own case, basically.
    Mr. Biggs. Is that normal?
    Dr. Fitzgerald. No, that is not normal. The first question 
that we asked the Committee, the Death Penalty Review 
Committee, which is used by many other district attorneys 
across not only this commonwealth but across the country. 
Having come from Philadelphia, been born and raised here, come 
up through the city of Philadelphia Police Department, we are 
aware that he has not used this process before. He has 
summarily dismissed the fact that he wanted to, or that he 
would ever pursue the death penalty.
    In our case we were afforded the opportunity, if you would 
put it that way, to present before this Committee. We did so. 
We presented our own aggravators. We even attacked the 
potential mitigators. Thankfully, my wife has worked homicides 
for years, and just in the Tarrant County District Attorney's 
Office she was a homicide investigator there. Being a chief of 
police and investigator, we were able to detach ourselves 
somewhat, if you will, from what happened with our son.
    No family should ever have to lobby. No family should have 
to be made to be felt as if we didn't do a good enough job 
before this Committee we wouldn't get justice. It is 
ridiculous. I would submit again that one of the biggest 
impediments to criminal justice can be district attorneys. I 
spoke with Mr. Jordan earlier and I talked about the preamble 
you had in your last report, and it talked about attorneys. It 
talked about attorneys being able to go after people and to get 
them. They have that same ability to total dismiss what the 
public wants and just go after what they want. In this case the 
clear want is to do away with the death penalty and to ensure 
that our son doesn't get justice.
    Mr. Biggs. Mr. Chair, I have several unanimous consents, if 
I can present.
    Chair Jordan. Gentleman.
    Mr. Biggs. Yes. I present the certified copy of the Fiscal 
Year 2021, where the $33 million was removed from the police.
    Then, I have an article entitled, ``Remembering 
Philadelphia Police Sergeant James O'Connor, Killed in the Line 
of Duty One Year Ago,'' from Saturday, March 13, 2021.
    Also, an article entitled, ``Make Sure Justice is Served. 
Slain Temple Police Sergeant's Family Calls for Death Penalty 
for Suspect,'' dated January 23, 2024.
    Chair Jordan. Without objection.
    Mr. Biggs. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
    Chair Jordan. Thank you. The Chair recognizes the Ranking 
Member for five minutes.
    Mr. Nadler. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Mr. and Ms. Fitzgerald, 
thank you for sharing the story of your son's life and his 
service to the community. In addition to being a member of the 
Temple University Police Department, where he worked to keep 
college students and the university community safe, your son 
was also a father of five and an active member of Swagga House 
Run Club and Black Men Run Philadelphia, which both organize 
group runs through Philadelphia to raise awareness around gun 
violence.
    I appreciate you being here, and I offer you my deepest 
sympathies for your loss.
    I must say that the people of Philadelphia do not appear to 
share your opinion and that of Mr. Gerace and Mr. Bochetto of 
District Attorney Krasner, since they reelected him.
    Mr. Garber, the civil suit against the teenager who shot 
and killed Sergeant Fitzgerald alleges that the killer suffered 
from mental instability, a propensity for violence, and a 
strong interest in possessing and using firearms. It also 
alleges that he showed signs, again and again, that he 
presented a high risk of harm to himself and others.
    Mr. Garber, how could the Federal Extreme Risk Protection 
Order Act, a Federal Red Lag Law, or H.B. 1028, a similar 
Pennsylvania measure, have prevent this shooter or others like 
him from accessing firearms, potentially saving the life of 
people like Sergeant Christopher Fitzgerald?
    Mr. Garber. Thank you. Extreme protection orders are 
designed to help give family members who understand someone is 
in crisis, or law enforcement, an opportunity to temporarily 
remove the firearm, and because firearms are so fatal when 
used, as we have heard today, unfortunately, removing us gives 
us time to get the person get help. So, there may be real 
evidence in that case that if extreme risk protection orders 
existed here in Pennsylvania, either through State or national 
law, that it could have prevented the shooting.
    It is also, though, worth noting that as I understand it, 
the shooter being under 21, could not purchase the firearm on 
his own, and I am unaware of exactly where the firearm came 
from in these cases, and so we should also look at that 
question, as well.
    Mr. Nadler. Mr. Garber, last Congress, under Democratic 
control, this Committee led the passage of the Federal Extreme 
Risk Protection Order Act in the House. Last year, also under 
Democratic Control, the Pennsylvania House passed their Red 
Flag Llaw. Both bills passed their respective chambers with 
overwhelming support from Democrats and the support of some 
Republicans, but neither became law.
    What is your response to the lawmakers across the country 
who have voted against or criticized extreme risk protection 
orders?
    Mr. Garber. I think these lawmakers are out of touch with 
their constituents, frankly. The only place gun safety laws, 
like extreme risk protection orders, are partisan is in the 
Capitol buildings. In Pennsylvania, polling shows over 80 
percent of Pennsylvanians support Red Fag Laws, and that 
includes people of all persuasions. It includes gun owners. It 
includes conservatives, self-identified conservatives, and 
Republicans.
    We need tools like this because when someone is in crisis, 
when they can get their hands on a gun, it puts everyone else 
at risk.
    Mr. Nadler. Mr. Garber, what does the research show about 
the rates of gun deaths in jurisdictions that have passed Red 
Flag Laws?
    Mr. Garber. The rates are lower when you have an extreme 
risk protection order and other gun safety laws on the books.
    Mr. Nadler. Thank you. Mr. Garber, are you aware of cases 
where people have spent 10-30 years in prison for crimes of 
which they were ultimately exonerated?
    Mr. Garber. It is not--I am sure that is the case, but I am 
not aware. It is not something I study deeply.
    Mr. Nadler. Are you aware of the case in New York in which 
five Black youths were convicted of raping a jogger in Central 
Park in 1989, and spent years in jail--
    Mr. Garber. Yes.
    Mr. Nadler. --in which Mr. Trump, as he was then, demanded 
the death penalty, and which they were subsequently exonerated?
    Mr. Garber. I am familiar with that. I am familiar with the 
generalities of the case.
    Mr. Nadler. Do you think that death penalty laws give the 
risk of innocent people ever being executed?
    Mr. Garber. CeaseFirePA does not have a position overall on 
the death penalty in these cases. We look at gun safety laws 
that can prevent the victims from being created in the first 
place.
    Mr. Garber. Thank you very much. I yield back.
    Chair Jordan. The gentleman yields back. Mr. Gerace, about 
a year ago the Governor of Arkansas, Sarah Huckabee Sanders, 
said that the divide in America today is ``normal and crazy.'' 
You can go down the list of crazy policies the left now has. 
Like it is crazy to have an open border.
    Mr. Gerace. Correct.
    Chair Jordan. In the context we are talking about today, 
some of the crazy policies--is it crazy to defund the police?
    Mr. Gerace. One hundred percent.
    Chair Jordan. Crazy. That makes no sense, right? Is it 
crazy not to say bad guys who violate the law should be 
prosecuted, let them go free. Is that crazy?
    Mr. Gerace. Say that again? I am sorry.
    Chair Jordan. When you have a district attorney who doesn't 
prosecute the bad guys that is crazy, right?
    Mr. Gerace. Yes, that is crazy.
    Chair Jordan. Not following the law. Here is the problem. 
Craziness has consequences. How short is the Philadelphia 
Police Department today in police officers?
    Mr. Gerace. So, we just, I believe yesterday, got rid of 
our Sixth Police District, which covered center city, so now 
they combined with the Ninth District because of lack of 
manpower. The Eighth District is geographically gigantic. It 
could take, from one corner to the other, almost 20-25 minutes, 
lights and sirens, meaning pedestrians get out of the way, cars 
are supposed to pull over.
    Chair Jordan. Is there a number short? Are you hundreds of 
officers short?
    Mr. Gerace. Thousands.
    Chair Jordan. Thousands of officers short?
    Mr. Gerace. Thousands. So, in the Eighth District there 
will be times where there are two radio cars and maybe a wagon 
to cover an area that's--
    Chair Jordan. So, there is a consequence that you don't 
have enough police officers to do the job, and when you defund 
the police and you don't prosecute the bad guys.
    Mr. Gerace. Correct.
    Chair Jordan. The real consequences are what happened to 
the Fitzgerald family, to Marissa, who lost a husband, to Ms. 
O'Connor. Those are the real consequences, right?
    Mr. Gerace. Yes.
    Chair Jordan. Yes. I thought Dr. Fitzgerald said something 
really insight. He said a lot of insightful things, but one of 
the things that stuck out to me was he said, ``Criminals aren't 
stupid. They're just bad.'' They know the fact that you are 
thousands of officers short.
    Mr. Gerace. Absolutely.
    Chair Jordan. They know that if they do something wrong 
that this--what did you call him, ``Let 'em Go Larry.''
    Mr. Gerace. That is correct. ``Let 'em Go Larry.''
    Chair Jordan. ``Let 'em Go Larry'' is going to let them go, 
right?
    Mr. Gerace. Yes.
    Chair Jordan. They know all that because they are not 
stupid. They are just bad guys. Bad guys need to be prosecuted, 
and in to catch the bad guys you need officers on the street. 
Right now, Philadelphia is lacking in both. They don't have 
enough officers on the street, and they don't have a prosecutor 
who will go after the bad guys, if the officers who are on the 
street can actually catch them.
    Mr. Gerace. Correct.
    Chair Jordan. That is the situation.
    Mr. Gerace. Yes. Do you want the honest truth of what is 
going on?
    Chair Jordan. Sure do.
    Mr. Gerace. Police officers are afraid to do their job 
because Krasner is looking to hang every one of them.
    Chair Jordan. You got to the next point. The next point is, 
and if they go out there and do their job, they are afraid that 
the press is going to come after them, or maybe worse yet, Mr. 
Krasner--who was the officer that was your friend, one of your 
colleagues that you worked with in the police, who Mr. Krasner 
took to court? What was his name?
    Mr. Gerace. Joe Bologna.
    Chair Jordan. Joe Bologna, right?
    Mr. Gerace. Absolutely. There was nothing wrong with that 
arrest.
    Chair Jordan. It goes back to what the good Governor of 
Arkansas said--it is just all craziness. It is just crazy to do 
it that way.
    I have got two minutes left. I want to go to Dr. Fitzgerald 
because I know you wanted to respond to something Mr. Nadler 
said, and then I want to yield any other time to our Chair of 
the Crime Committee.
    Dr. Fitzgerald. Thank you, Mr. Chair. I wanted to respond 
by saying the objective here is not to invalidate or validate, 
let's say, for our family's purposes, the death penalty. We 
will stand up with anyone who is unfairly prosecuted and 
unfairly sentenced because of bad policing. What we have here 
is bad prosecutorial actions or inaction. We won't stand for 
that.
    So, we have rules, rules for a reason, laws for a reason. 
When our district attorney selectively, if not even 
prejudicially, all right, determines what it is that he will 
and will not prosecute, I go back to what you said, Mr. Chair, 
criminals aren't dumb. They are not stupid, referring to what I 
talked about earlier. They know that when they run in the 
stores en masse in downtown Philadelphia, or anywhere in this 
country, and they run out with hundreds, or even thousands at 
times, of dollars' worth of products, they will not be 
prosecuted. If we want to be honest, being honest means talking 
to real Philadelphians, getting on the street, doing what Mr. 
Krasner and his pundits said yesterday, just yesterday, and 
let's get some real statistics, well, let's get some real 
statistics and see what real Philadelphians think.
    Chair Jordan. I yield to the gentleman.
    Mr. Biggs. Thank you, Mr. Chair. I am going to ask, I 
think, Mr. Bochetto about this. When the district attorney 
doesn't prosecute, the public itself--we have talked about 
police, we have talked about specific victims of crime, but the 
public gets a malaise of hopelessness and helplessness. Do they 
continue to call police then when someone busts into their 
bodega and starts ripping them off?
    Mr. Bochetto. You put your finger right on the problem. The 
demoralization of the Police Department, and the demoralization 
of the general public is stark.
    I want to give you one example, Congressman, that I think 
typifies this. I was involved in the Columbus statue litigation 
in Marconi Plaza in South Philadelphia. It is a beautiful 
little plaza and a park right on Broad Street. I was sitting 
there with numerous Philadelphia police officers, and a gang of 
30 ATVs and dirt bikes and no mufflers came roaring down the 
street, unmistakable. It was just as abrupt an interruption of 
a community's life as you can have.
    I turned to the police officer, and I said, ``Didn't we 
used to prevent that kind of outrageous lawlessness on the 
street?'' He said, ``Yes, we used to. Not anymore. Do you think 
I'm going to go arrest one of those folks and have Larry 
Krasner breathing down my neck?'' That is a direct example. I 
was right there. I was an eyewitness. Congressman, that is 
exactly what is demoralizing our community from the point of 
view of being able to rely on the government to keep safety 
alive.
    Chair Jordan. Thank you. The gentleman yields back. The 
gentlelady from Pennsylvania is recognized.
    Ms. Scanlon. Thank you, Mr. Chair. I would have been 
delighted to welcome the Judiciary Committee to Philadelphia 
for a thoughtful and honest discussion about how violent crime 
has dramatically declined in Philadelphia in recent years, the 
challenges our city continues to face, and how the Federal 
Government can help. That is not what is happening here today.
    Chair Jordan has not convened the House Judiciary Committee 
in the city of Brotherly Love and Sisterly Affection to explore 
how Congress can help to reduce violent crime in Philadelphia 
or anywhere else. Instead, he has brought his traveling circus 
to town to divide Americans, scare voters, influence elections, 
and distract from the crushing failure of the House Majority to 
govern in this Congress.
    Chair Jordan wants to convince people that gun violence is 
a Philadelphia problem, but the truth is gun violence is an 
American problem, that is traumatizing families in every corner 
of every community across this great land.
    So, let's start by making three things clear.
    (1) Contrary to the statistics cited by the Chair, violent 
crime in Philadelphia has decreased dramatically in recent 
years.
    (2) Our entire country continues to face a daily epidemic 
of gun violence.
    (3) That senseless violence is not inevitable. It is 
enabled by lawmakers who choose to sow chaos with political 
stunts like this hearing instead of doing their damn jobs.
    What makes today's sham hearing even more offensive is that 
while our Republican colleagues are trying to score political 
points here, off the pain of families who have suffered 
grievous losses, they are simultaneously blocking votes on 
bills that would prevent gun violence, in Philadelphia and 
across the country, by keeping weapons out of dangerous hands 
and off our neighborhood streets. We all know too many people 
who have been scarred by gun violence, who have lost loved 
ones, neighbors, and friends, and who are crying out for action 
to address this public health crisis. Our Republican colleagues 
are deaf to those cries.
    We are seeing work on the ground across the Philadelphia 
region that offers hope. New violence intervention programs are 
showing progress. Homicides in Philadelphia this year to date 
are down 35 percent from last year, and down 16 percent from 
five years ago. Police statistics show that violent crime is at 
its lowest levels her in more than two decades.
    There is still so much more work to do. Americans are 
demanding action, and American voters, our children deserve to 
know where their representatives stand on the common-sense 
solutions to stop this carnage. Democrats have introduced bills 
that would close background check loopholes, that would 
implement Red Flag Laws, promote the safe storage of firearms, 
and ban assault weapons and ghost guns. Our colleagues refuse 
to join us in demanding votes on those bills.
    Philadelphians and all Americans deserve a Congress that 
does its job and passes legislative solutions, not a Congress 
that spends all its time mired in political sideshows and 
dysfunction. Our country has serious issues that demand serious 
solutions, not cynical political circuses like this hearing. 
Philadelphia deserves better and America deserves better.
    Now, I have direct stake in this subject. Two and a half 
years ago I was carjacked at gunpoint by three teenagers, using 
a firearm they brought from out of State. Obviously, it was 
scary to have a gun pointed at my chest. As I looked down the 
barrel of that gun my mind raced, thinking about all the ways 
Congress could have prevented that encounter, by closing 
loopholes to keep guns out of the hands of people who shouldn't 
have them, including kids, by giving ATF the funding that it 
needs to enforce gun trafficking laws, and by addressing the 
poverty, trauma, and social conditions that led those kids to 
pick up a gun in the first place.
    It also occurred to me that the gun pointed at my chest 
could have been a ghost gun, and I heard a snicker. Yes, your 
mind does race in funny ways when you are facing a gun.
    So, Mr. Garber, could you talk about how ghost guns, these 
untraceable, unregulated firearms that can be bought and sold 
without a background check, contribute to gun violence here in 
Philadelphia, and why we need legislation to address this 
threat?
    Mr. Garber. We saw a 410 percent increase in the recovered 
number of ghost guns just in Philadelphia. The thing is, when 
we are talking about people with criminal records, they may not 
be able to walk into a licensed dealer and buy a gun, but they 
can order a ghost gun kit online, and in a little amount of 
time have a gun in their home that they can use in these 
violent crimes.
    So, it is a massive gap in our safety system that we have 
to close.
    Ms. Scanlon. Pennsylvania recently passed bipartisan 
legislation through one house to address this issue. Correct?
    Mr. Garber. Correct.
    Ms. Scanlon. OK. Dr. Abaya, you work with young people here 
in Philadelphia. Can you talk about why it is important to 
address the toll of gun violence with our youth?
    Dr. Abaya. Absolutely. So, one of the things that we know 
about gun violence is that the trauma that is sustained early 
in life has implications for the duration of life. We also know 
that, as I had mentioned in my technologies, when gun violence 
occurs, those who are in immediately proximity have long-term 
mental health needs, and that trauma, in and of itself, can 
contribute to future involvement in and an exposure to 
violence.
    So, it is a very important preventative measure to identify 
and intervene on violence for youth, and that is violence 
within a community, so not just the individual but they 
community in which they live.
    Ms. Scanlon. Thank you. I appreciate that. I see my time 
has expired, although not by as much as some of our other 
Members, so I will yield back.
    Chair Jordan. I am trying to be lenient. The gentlelady 
yields back. The gentleman from Florida is recognized.
    Mr. Gaetz. When Philadelphia was coined the City of 
Brotherly Love, I don't think Cain and Abel were the brothers 
they were referring to. It seems, if you look at the major 
crimes in this fair city, they are increasing. The latest Pew 
Report indicates that the number of major crimes, which is the 
combined tally of violent crime and property crime, has now 
reached a 20-year high.
    I was deeply moved by the testimony of Ms. O'Connor, Ms. 
Fitzgerald, and Dr. Fitzgerald, and I was stricken, and a bit 
insulted, that my previous colleague made mention of this as a 
circus, as you are here to hopefully lend greater understanding 
to policymakers about how to make death and violence less 
likely.
    Ms. Fitzgerald, your testimony almost brought Mr. Biggs and 
I to tears. We are sympathetic criers. What was it like hearing 
Ms. Scanlon describe this as a circus?
    Ms. Fitzgerald. We certainly aren't circus animals. We are 
people. I am born and raised in this city. My entire family is 
here, and this city is suffering.
    Mr. Gaetz. How did you feel, Dr. Fitzgerald?
    Dr. Fitzgerald. I just met this morning, Ms. Scanlon, 
however, and with all due respect, we aren't circus animals. My 
wife, my daughter-in-law are here because we have suffered 
tremendous pain, as you suffered when you were carjacked. I 
remember reading that article. So, I keep very much in tune 
with what is going on here in the city. We have generations of 
Fitzgeralds, Moreros that give back to this city. Her brother-
in-law commutes back and forth from the county into the city, 
into the poorest section of this city, to give out food to--
    Ms. Fitzgerald. My brother.
    Dr. Fitzgerald. I am sorry, your brother. Excuse me.
    My point being we have a vested interest and care, and we 
wouldn't be used as circus animals. We are telling a story, and 
we are smart enough, and intent enough to communicate properly 
and share what we feel, and what our family feels. Again, we 
did not move here. We are born and raised here. We still have 
tremendous connections with this city. So, we get feedback. It 
goes back to--
    Mr. Gaetz. Well, Dr. Fitzgerald, if you don't mind I want 
to zero in because I was looking at really the election contest 
for Mr. Krasner, who everyone here, or most folks here seem to 
have some objection with, and he won overwhelmingly, and he 
said in his victory speech,

        In Philadelphia this is a movement that has been led by Black 
        and Brown and broke people and progressives. If you're Black or 
        Brown or broke, you better be progressive because there isn't 
        much of an alternative.

It seems to me that living would be an alternative, right?
    Dr. Fitzgerald. Living is an alternative that is the 
reality for folks that live in communities like I grew up in, 
in West Philadelphia, or in East Division, where my wife grew 
up. These are the neighborhoods that are the poorest. These are 
the neighborhoods that have most of the gun violence within the 
city, and these are the ones that no one surveys and no one 
talks to, that perhaps one or two representatives from those 
ends of the communities speak, and they don't necessarily speak 
for the people on the ground.
    Mr. Gaetz. Well, I also want to zoom out a little bit, 
because Mr. Krasner made a remarkable admission in his election 
victory speech. He said,

        This is about a movement of progressive prosecutors who have 
        taken office around the country. It is not about us as 
        individuals.

    So, Ms. O'Connor, I wanted to give you a chance to react to 
that, that this dynamic, this soft-on-crime progressivism, it 
is not just an isolated circumstance in one area, but the DAs 
who are doing these policies, they actually see themselves as 
part of a broader movement to impact the whole country this 
way. What is your reaction to that.
    Ms. O'Connor. I am going to try to keep it nice. I think 
people are delusional. There is no one here in this room that 
can come at me with any of the facts about Jim's job. These 
guys are all lengthy past criminals. How can somebody not 
understand what is going on. My husband could still be here 
today if these men were prosecuted the way they should have 
been and been behind bars. These guys have, combined, 8-10 
murders underneath them. It is insane. They have been let out, 
and they know that.
    When people are killed in Philadelphia, people just can't 
wait to see the rap sheet of the person that did the shooting, 
and how many times they have been let out. It is ridiculous. My 
son is a police officer. Again, he has locked someone up who 
has laughed in his face and said, ``I will be out in a few 
hours.'' He was right.
    Our district attorney, oh my God, my son was in the Police 
Academy and this man came up to him as he was standing around 
the hero wall, and he said, ``How are you doing there, sir?'' 
My son looked at him like, are you crazy. He said, ``How am I 
doing? That's my father on the wall right there.'' Larry 
couldn't even look at him. He just turned away.
    The policy, everything, is totally out of control, and 
people that respect this man or want to vote for him, let it 
happen to your family and then you will see about how you feel 
about everybody walking free and what goes on in this city. I 
see what the police officers go through. They are scared to do 
their job. You have nobody going into the Academy. Why would 
they? He is looking to prosecute the police more than keep 
people in jail, where they should be. It is ridiculous.
    Mr. Gaetz. Mr. Chair, I see my time has expired, but I just 
wanted to thank all the witnesses, and certainly express my 
appreciation for the hearing, and my understanding that this is 
no circus. This is very serious endeavor that is life or death. 
I yield back.
    Chair Jordan. The gentleman yields back. The Chair 
recognizes the gentlelady from Pennsylvania.
    Ms. Dean. Thank you, Mr. Chair, and I yield Ms. Scanlon a 
bit of time, and then I will get to my questions.
    Ms. Scanlon. Thank you. I just wanted to clarify for our 
witnesses, and of course Mr. Gaetz knows better, that I was not 
referring to the witnesses whose pain is very real, and we 
really appreciate their testimony here and their effort to try 
to make the city a better place. I was referring to the actions 
of our colleagues as being circus-like, and on trading on the 
pain of other people. So, thank you, Ms. Dean. I yield back to 
you.
    Ms. Dean. Thank you. It seems to me that we have two 
hearings going on here. What you have suffered, the folks in 
this room, the O'Connor family, the Fitzgerald family, there is 
nothing we can say that will heal your pain, and we know that. 
I hope you know that as serious legislators, as somebody who 
has wanted to do something about gun violence, when I was a 
professor at LaSalle University, when I was a young mother to 
three children, taking my kids to the Million Mom March 24 
years ago, some of us are very serious and intentional about 
wanting to do something.
    So, you might see some frustration in us. This very 
Committee held a hearing to defund the ATF. Is that the right 
direction for this country to go, to defund an important law 
enforcement agency that helps trace back where these criminals 
are getting the guns? That is why it is a little frustrating 
here.
    So, again, your losses, we feel very, very deeply. I can't 
imagine. As a professor at LaSalle University, as I said, I 
wasn't elected to anything. I had an adult woman in my night 
class who talked a lot. We would meet in conference about her 
writing. We talked a lot about her precious 15-year-old sons, 
twins. Then the next semester I read in the newspaper of one of 
the 16-year-old being shot and killed, based on a gripe, some 
gripe among 16-year-olds with guns.
    Let's get serious about how do we get these guns out of 
people's hands. As Federal legislators, what can we do to make 
a difference, to get illegal guns off the street, to get guns 
out of the hands of folks who are prohibited purchasers because 
they are unsafe, they are unwell. Let's get serious about that.
    So, Dr. Abaya, I want to start with you. You have recited 
what we know to be an extraordinarily shameful American 
statistic. Children in this country are more likely to die of 
gun violence than any other cause. I don't know another nation 
that wears that badge of shame. That is the United States. That 
is not just Philadelphia, folks. That is the United States.
    You are in the trenches. You are dealing with families who 
are dealing with these incredible losses. What are the most 
effective things we can do? You have cited the statistics. In 
Philadelphia, unlike what some of my colleagues said, crime 
down 38.28 percent--excuse me, homicide rate down 22 percent.
    Let's just stick with the gun violence. What are the 
effective things going on in this city, regardless of the 
Krasner argument that is going on, what is going on that is 
effective and is bringing down this rate?
    Dr. Abaya. Thank you so much for that question. So a public 
health approach to addressing this issue really consists of 
identifying modifiable risk factors in community. This is 
something that has worked with a myriad of diseases, that have 
had successful public health interventions over the years. What 
are the modifiable risk factors that can be intervened on 
within community? These start with the individual but also 
involve the entire community, even the built environment. Right 
here in Philadelphia, some of the most seminal studies have 
been done that demonstrate the impact of these strategies.
    So, I mentioned CVI. These are strategies that identify 
people who are at highest risk of near-term violence with an 
aggressive case management plan. These people are engaged by 
someone that they trust, someone who can pull them from the 
cycle of violence, for a period of a minimum of months. This is 
not a short-term engagement. It is not a Band-Aid. It is a way 
to significantly alter a person's life course forever.
    What we really want for community safety is for people to 
not enter into violent situations and then be withdrawn, and 
then enter and withdraw, and we have seen that. In our homicide 
review cases and also at the Health Department we saw those 
cycles of continued exposure, repeat injury, over and over 
again. Interventions that intervene when we recognize those 
modifiable risk factors and transform them, address them, 
sustainably, by providing, for example, employment, where 
someone has an actual place to go day to day, cognitive 
behavioral therapy and other types of mental health 
interventions. Those strategies are known to be effective.
    There are other things that have been studied in the city 
of Philadelphia such as changes to the built environment. As I 
mentioned, greening, which had a measurable impact on reducing 
violence in the areas that were transformed. This is community 
transformation that has impacts actually beyond gun violence.
    So, I think the thread of hope here is that there are 
interventions that are proven. There is promising research 
being conducted every day, and there is a lot to invest in that 
could really change lives.
    Ms. Dean. Thank you for your work on this, what is a public 
health crisis. We have another public health crisis going on, 
which is addiction. So, I invite the Chair to please come, take 
a look at what is going on in Kensington, if you want to be 
serious about doing anything around addiction and mental 
health.
    I will end with Mr. Garber. That is a public health 
approach. What have you been doing at the State level that has 
been successful with the Democratic House that we should take 
to the Federal level?
    Mr. Garber. I think we have found ways to find common 
ground. Right now we are really focused on firearm trafficking 
especially. I was talking to a detective in Montgomery County 
yesterday about how lapses and slowness in the electronic 
records of sales system, which is our State public background 
check system, is impacting their ability to identify 
traffickers before someone loses their life. So, we are working 
with Republicans and Democrats on legislation to address that.
    Already in the last year we have had three bills the 
Extreme Risk Protection Order bill, Ghost Gun Ban, and 
Universal Background Check bill. The background check bill is 
really important for Congress to look at, because in 
Pennsylvania, while we have an extremely strong State-based 
background check law, we see guns travel up from my home State 
of Georgia, from the South, up the Iron Pipeline, right into 
Philadelphia, and cause this violence.
    Ms. Dean. I thank you, and I thank you, Mr. Chair. I will 
yield back.
    Oh, excuse me. I do have a unanimous request consent.
    Chair Jordan. Recognized.
    Ms. Dean. I ask unanimous consent to enter into the record 
the Philadelphia Police Department Major Crimes Report 
citywide, 2024, because I really want to correct the record. 
Mr. Gaetz had statistics from some other era. So, I ask 
unanimous consent to put this in to show that homicide is down 
38.28 percent.
    Chair Jordan. Without objection.
    Chair Jordan. The gentlelady yields back. The gentleman 
from Virginia--
    Mr. Gaetz. Mr. Chair, can I be recognized for a unanimous 
consent?
    Chair Jordan. Sure.
    Mr. Gaetz. Mr. Chair, I am seeking to enter into the record 
the 2023 Pew Report that indicated that major crimes were at a 
20-year high, which combines violent crime and property crime.
    Chair Jordan. Without objection.
    Chair Jordan. The gentleman from Virginia is recognized.
    Ms. Scanlon. Mr. Chair? If we are doing unanimous consent I 
have a couple, as well.
    Chair Jordan. The gentlelady from Pennsylvania is 
recognized.
    Ms. Scanlon. There is January 18, 2024, article from the 
Philadelphia Inquirer by the Director of the National Institute 
for Criminal Justice Reform entitled, ``How Philadelphia 
Reduced Gun Violence in 2023.''
    Also, an April 30th article from NBC-10 Philadelphia 
titled, ``Philly Leaders Encouraged by Drop in Homicides So Far 
This Year.''
    Also, an April 12th article from Fox 29 Philadelphia 
titled, ``Carjacking Significantly Declined in Two Years, 
Philadelphia Carjacking Task Force Reports.''
    An April 15th article from WHYY titled, ``Philly DA Sets Up 
New Unit Focusing on Repeat Gun Offenders.''
    Finally, an April 16th article from Axios titled ``Number 
of Homicides Plummets in Major U.S. Cities,'' nothing that 
Philadelphia is currently experiencing a 37 percent decline in 
murders.
    Chair Jordan. Without objection.
    Ms. Scanlon. Thank you. I yield back.
    Mr. Gaetz. Mr. Chair, this will be my last, Mr. Chair. I 
have an additional consent request.
    Chair Jordan. The gentleman is recognized.
    Mr. Gaetz. The article titled ``George Soros Prosecutors 
Wage War on Law and Order,'' heritage.org.
    The article titled ``Philadelphia Soros-Funded District 
Attorney Deceived Court to Get Murderer Off Death Row,'' from 
the Washington Examiner.
    The article titled ``George Soros' Bad Debt on Progression 
DAs,'' from the Philadelphia Citizen.
    Chair Jordan. Without objection.
    While we are keeping Mr. Cline waiting, you have all been 
here for a couple of hours. If you need a break just let us 
know, and we can certainly have a chance for a break.
    Mr. Nadler. Mr. Chair?
    Chair Jordan. Yes.
    Mr. Nadler. I just want to say that with all the 
antisemitism we are seeing, we are seeing antisemitism using 
George Soros again, it is disgusting.
    Mr. Gaetz. Point of privilege. Mr. Ranking Member, not 
every criticism of George Soros is antisemitic. The criticisms 
deal with public policy and the matters of rising crime with 
DAs. I don't know anything about Mr. Soros' faith. I yield 
back.
    Chair Jordan. The gentleman yields back.
    The gentleman from Virginia is now recognized for five 
minutes.
    Mr. Cline. Thank you, Mr. Chair. I want to thank our 
witnesses, in particular the Fitzgeralds and Ms. O'Connor, for 
being here. Your stories are tragic, and we share your grief.
    I love the city of Philadelphia. I love to come here and 
visit. The history is amazing, and my kids love it. We came up 
here and got to tour around. We tried to go to a pizza place up 
in Callowhill, crossed under the Convention Center, and that 
was a wrong turn because we saw some tragic individuals 
underneath that tunnel. We want to come back here. I told my 
kids I was coming up here for a hearing, and they looked and 
said, ``Daddy, don't go back to the Convention Center,'' 
because they remember what they saw here.
    So, there is greatness in your city but there is also 
crisis in your city, and the crisis comes as a result of the 
budget that Mr. Biggs put in the record, which, in 2021, I am 
just going to read it,

        To address fiscal challenges and issues with equity in law 
        enforcement, the Philadelphia Police Department's budget was 
        reduced by $33 million.

That had a real impact.
    When Chair Jordan asked how short on officers are they, 
well, I got on Google, and it says in a force of 6,500 at the 
beginning of this year they were short about 1,000, and over 
100 retired on January 1st of this year. Over the next two 
years another 600 are scheduled to retire. There is a crisis in 
confidence among law enforcement, and that is having a real 
impact on crime in Philadelphia. Over the last year, property 
crimes, including retail theft and carjackings, have risen by 
more than 15 percent. Retail theft has increased by almost 28 
percent, while vehicle thefts have skyrocketed by 72 percent. 
That comes from the district attorney that refuses to 
prosecute.
    Ms. O'Connor, I wanted to ask you, in particular, about 
when you mentioned in your testimony about the four men 
involved in your husband's shooting, at least two had prior 
convictions for violent crimes, including murder, and at least 
two had lenient sentences and were out on bail or parole. Can 
you just go into detail a little bit on that and what that does 
to crime in the city?
    Ms. O'Connor. Again, I wish I had the time to go through 
and pull up all four of their prior arrests. These guys, there 
was one that was over 21, and the rest were under 19, 18 years 
old. I guess it starts with the gun charges that they were 
arrested for. To be let out on that, well, why? You commit a 
crime, you should be in jail. You should stay there. To be let 
out, and then to find out, like I said, the main shooter, five 
names he wrote on that wall in the prison cell, proudly, very 
proudly. I mean, 19 years old. At the time of the case my 
daughter was 19, and this woman is in the Air Force, trying to 
get her life together and figure it out. Or she could have sat 
home and just shot people and sold drugs and got away with it, 
for how many years.
    This doesn't need to happen, and it is continuing to 
happen. The low bail is what brings people out. This is what I 
said federally, thank God, the job is not in Larry Krasner's 
hands. I would totally believe that at least one to two, maybe 
three of them would be out by now. The crime is just out of 
control, and I get really emotional talking about it, because 
Jim should still be here.
    Mr. Cline. It is, and he should still be here, and, in 
fact, they are trying to take more away from Mr. Krasner. I am 
noticing that the Governor just signed Act 40 into law in the 
final months of last year to allow the State's Attorney General 
to appoint a special prosecutor on any crime that occurs within 
500 yards of a SEPTA property in Philadelphia. It allows the 
special prosecutor to intervene in all such cases through 2026, 
which is when Krasner's current term would end.
    So, hopefully they are going to be able to take more away 
from Krasner so that he won't be able to dismiss and ignore the 
crimes that are occurring cross this city.
    Mr. Bochetto, in my final seconds, I wanted to ask you 
about the attempted impeachment of Mr. Krasner. He was 
successfully impeached in the House, and then he sued to block 
it, the trial in the Senate. Is that correct?
    Mr. Bochetto. That is absolutely correct.
    Mr. Cline. Can you talk about the effort that you undertook 
and how it seems that it was thrown out by a single judge, and 
what that does to Mr. Krasner's, I don't know, willingness, as 
it were. Is he just going to be encouraged by that, to continue 
to try and ignore more crime in the city?
    Mr. Bochetto. I think he is. It was even worse than that. 
What happened was in the September/October terms of 2022, House 
Republicans impeached Larry Krasner. Just like in the Federal 
model, in the State model here in Pennsylvania from there it 
goes to a trial in the Senate. Unfortunately, the House changed 
control in the November 2022 elections, and they lost 13 
sitting Republicans, converted to Democratic control, and as 
soon as that happened they fired the House manager of the 
impeachment process, who had engaged me.
    So, we were essentially shut down by politics and never had 
the chance to really present the case to the Senate. Then as 
you point out, thereafter, Mr. Krasner presented a petition to 
a Democratic judge, who I believe in a partisan way, 
interrupted the process. The impeachment is now in mothballs.
    I wish to point out, one of the biggest issues in the 
Krasner impeachment has nothing to do with whether crime is 
rising or crime is going down or that type of thing. It is the 
manner in which he disregards victims of crime. Victims have 
State and Federal rights, and most recently Larry Krasner was 
held in contempt of court, in Federal proceedings, where he 
directly lied to the court about consulting with victim crime 
families in implementing reductions in sentences. It was a 
direct lie. He was called out on it. It was confirmed in the 
Third Circuit. It is an act of misconduct.
    Mr. Cline. Thank you.
    Chair Jordan. Thank you. The gentleman yields back. The 
gentlelady from North Carolina is recognized.
    Ms. Ross. Thank you, Mr. Chair, and I want to just thank 
all the witnesses for being here. I was born in Philadelphia. 
My father, his entire family is from Philadelphia. So, every 
time I come back it has a special place in my heart, and I do 
believe that every single one of you here wants Philadelphia to 
be the best that it possibly can be. So, I am going to focus my 
questions on things that might help prevent violent crimes from 
occurring.
    I represent Wake County, North Carolina, and this is a 
place that is home to both metropolitan centers, like downtown 
Raleigh, and smaller, much more rural towns. Yet, each part of 
my district represents the challenges that we have heard today, 
though not with our district attorney.
    What we have seen is that violence is not segregated to 
large cities or Democratic areas. Today we have violence 
because it is easier than ever to access a firearm, and to 
access it illegally. I call my sheriff--I only have one sheriff 
because I only represent one county, but I have 10 chiefs of 
police--I call them every 4-6 weeks just to check in. The two 
things they tell me every single time: First, too much access 
to illegal firearms. It threatens the communities and it 
threatens their own officers.
    The second thing is how difficult it is to recruit 
officers. It is easier in some of the small towns because the 
cost of living is lower and you just know everybody. 
Particularly in Raleigh it is very difficult to recruit 
officers. So, I have been working on that, in particular, 
trying to recruit all different kinds of officers and more
female officers, because they tend to be better at some of the 
de-
escalation that we need to see when they confront the 
community.
    I want to share a recent example from a suburban 
neighborhood in my district, Hedingham. In October 2022, 
Hedingham experienced a mass shooting. The shooter was a 15-
year-old who took a firearm that he used to kill five people 
from his family home, and it was left unsecured. In North 
Carolina, guns are now the leading cause of injury or death for 
children, surpassing car accidents, and one of the reasons for 
this tragedy is the lack of safe storage, same all across the 
country. Forty-two percent of the households in my State own 
firearms, legally own firearms, but half of those households do 
not have safe storage.
    Nationally, 70 percent of school shootings are committed by 
children who have had unsecured guns in their home. Seventy-
five percent of unintentional shootings of children are 
committed with unsecured guns, and 80 percent of firearm 
suicides by children involve family weapons. In addition, 
thousands of unsecured guns are reported stolen in North 
Carolina and across the country, threatening not only their 
families but the communities where these guns end up 
proliferating.
    My first question is for Dr. Abaya. How does safe storage 
factor into community violence intervention programs?
    Dr. Abaya. Thank you for that question. So, safe storage is 
incredibly important in any community violence intervention 
structure or ecosystem, specifically when it comes to children. 
We know there is no circumstance under which a child should 
have access to a gun. So safe storage is kind of a fundamental 
component of anticipatory guidance for pediatricians who are 
engaging with children. There is great evidence that safe 
storage prevents accidental injuries, as you identified, 
suicides, and I think that there is untapped promise for 
community violence, the unique nature of interpersonal violence 
that we see on the streets, because as you mention, unsecured 
guns can end up causing violence in a myriad of ways.
    Safe storage has been shown to be most impactful if you 
link education with device provision. So, programs like the one 
at CHOP that help families by both giving them the information 
they need to keep their children safe and providing them with 
information about a specific device have been shown to be most 
effective.
    There is also evidence that families are receptive to this 
messaging, especially when it comes from trusted voices like 
their permanent care provider. So, there is a lot of potential 
to increase safe storage, specifically in protecting children.
    Ms. Ross. OK. Mr. Chair, I would like to ask the 
Fitzgeralds a question, and I am so devastated by the story of 
what happened to your son and I hope that you get the justice 
that you are seeking. I want to talk about safe storage in that 
context because as Mr. Nadler described, the person who killed 
your son in such a heinous, violent, and cruel way had known 
mental health problems--well, at least from the record it 
seemed like--also, had a family that allowed him to have access 
to these guns.
    So, we can let you talk about his mental health problems, 
but his family let him have access to these guns when he was 
under the age of 21. Do you think that safe storage or some way 
of dealing with that could have been helpful in your situation?
    Ms. Fitzgerald. So, I will answer that question. Yes, I do 
believe his family gave him access to guns. As far as the 
mental health, I have to say that during his preliminary he 
said that he did not have any mental health history, so I don't 
know where that statement is coming from.
    Yes, I do feel that he had access to guns, and I do feel 
that his family gave him that access. He was underage. He was 
under the age to legally have a gun. So yes, I don't believe 
they locked them up. I believe they shot on their property. I 
believe he target shot and he has pictures on the internet with 
all kinds of guns.
    Ms. Ross. OK. Thank you very much. Mr. Chair, I yield back.
    Chair Jordan. The gentlelady yields.
    Mr. Biggs. I have a UC.
    Chair Jordan. The gentleman is recognized.
    Mr. Biggs. Thank you, Mr. Chair. I want to put in a Pew 
Trust report which indicates that in my home State of Phoenix, 
one of the highest per capita gun ownerships in the Nation, 
constitutional carry, has one of the lowest homicide rates, 
eight per 100,000, which is 3\1/2\ times less than 
Philadelphia. I ask that to--
    Chair Jordan. Without objection.
    Mr. Biggs. Thank you.
    Chair Jordan. The gentleman from New Jersey is recognized 
for five minutes.
    Mr. Van Drew. Thank you, Mr. Chair. First, Dr. Fitzgerald, 
Ms. Fitzgerald, Ms. O'Connor, I am sorry you have to be here, 
and I mean that, and you are here for a specific purpose. I 
don't want us to lose what the focus of this hearing is, and we 
have to keep our eye on the ball. Politics is a nasty business 
sometimes when folks are in a corner they want to talk about 
everything over here, the shiny object over here. We really 
need to talk about what is happening in Philadelphia, and we 
need to talk about the policies in Philadelphia with this 
prosecutor. That is what we are here for.
    I have got to tell you; I live at the Jersey shore. My 
district is the New Jersey shore. I am sure you are familiar 
with it. In the summertime, actually for about five months of 
the year, we are more Philadelphia and Eastern Pennsylvania 
than we are New Jersey. We are outnumbered. God help you if you 
are a Yankee fan or a Knicks fan--you are in big trouble.
    I talk to a lot of law enforcement. A lot of law 
enforcement come down, to whether it is Sea Isle City, Stone 
Harbor, Avalon, Cape May, etc., and they all say the same 
thing. They are afraid to do their job in Philadelphia. That is 
the issue we are talking about today. That is why we are here.
    I talk to people who live in Philly, that love Philly. It 
is in their blood, multiple generations, and they are scared, 
and they are not only--let me just give the 1,000-pound 
elephant, or whatever. They are not all white. They are White, 
Black, Hispanic, and Asian and they are all afraid because 
violence, we are all afraid of it, and we all deserve to live 
in a safe home, in a safe neighborhood, with police that can do 
their job.
    We are talking about the death penalty and Donald Trump and 
ghost guns and George Soros and antisemitism. No, George Soros, 
the issue is he purposely and willfully has made it a goal of 
his to liberalize and change prosecutors throughout the United 
States of America, including Philadelphia, and is directly 
involved. It has nothing to do with antisemitism.
    We talk about political agenda, safe storage. That is not 
the issue today. They are important issues. Some of them are. 
Some of them, quite frankly, are not, but some of them are. It 
is not the issue. You know what the issue is today? It is 
enforcing the law. It is against the law to rape. It is against 
the law to murder. It is against the law to beat people to 
death. It is against the law to distribute drugs. It is against 
the law to carjack. It is against the law to steal. We are not 
enforcing the law in the city of Philadelphia and in many other 
locations in the United States of America. We can talk about 
all these other issues that people are bringing up today, but 
that is the issue that we are here for.
    Larry Krasner--I am sorry. I am going to say it because I 
am a blunt guy. I am not an attorney. I am a dentist, and we 
just say it right out there. He is a bad guy. He is doing bad 
things. Larry Krasner, cops are in danger because of what he 
does. Larry Krasner--and I hate to say it this way; I don't 
know how else to say it, though--your son, your husband isn't 
here because of his policies. It is common sense. How can you 
keep leaving people out over and over and over again when they 
have killed, raped, stolen, and hurt others? It doesn't make 
sense. It is wrong. All those other issues are important, but 
this is what we are here for. It has to stop. That is why we 
are having that hearing.
    I am sick of it. I am tired of it. The problem was created 
by politicians, and so now I guess politicians, we have got to 
try to straighten it out. This is a created problem that didn't 
need to happen, and it shouldn't happen, and God help you. I 
feel so bad for you having to sit here, through all this stuff, 
and hear it all. I know your hearts are broken, and there are 
no words. Nobody can say, ``We know how you feel.'' I don't 
know how you feel. I didn't lose my spouse, I didn't lose my 
son, so I don't know how you feel. I can only imagine it.
    Ms. O'Connor, can you tell, quickly, the impact of lenient 
sentencing and bail policies on your tragedy? Specifically, was 
it those policies that caused this to happen to you?
    Ms. O'Connor. Yes. I have said it--
    Mr. Van Drew. Thank you.
    Ms. O'Connor. --and I will say it again. My husband should 
still be here.
    Mr. Van Drew. What measures do you believe need to be 
enacted to make this better? I think you know the answer to 
that.
    Ms. O'Connor. People need to be locked up and kept in jail. 
These males had 10 guns in the room when that shooting 
happened, 10.
    Mr. Van Drew. They are released.
    Ms. O'Connor. They had been released, released, and 
released. It is ridiculous.
    Mr. Van Drew. Damn it, they are bad people. Let's face it. 
We have got to understand something in this world. There are 
good people and bad people. There are some bad people. Bad 
people need to be in jail, sometimes for the rest of their 
lives.
    Ms. O'Connor. I agree.
    Mr. Van Drew. So, they can't do this to good people like 
you.
    Dr. and Ms. Fitzgerald, what would you do right now if this 
was your world, and you could change it and you could make it 
right today? If you had the supreme power, what would you do to 
change this? I know it is a hard question. The doc gave it to 
you.
    Ms. Fitzgerald. We would start enforcing the law again. 
There are laws for a reason. There is lawlessness in this city.
    Mr. Van Drew. Enforce the damn law. Is it complicated? We 
are trying to make it complicated but it is not. Enforce the 
law. Bad people should be in jail. These are real bad people. 
I'm sorry to interrupt. Doctor?
    Dr. Fitzgerald. I just have to tell you, this Committee 
believes in justice, right. Part of what we have to do is start 
making sure that the folks responsible for facilitating 
justice, for families like ours--and I just can't imagine what 
you have gone through, as well. We have talked but it weighs 
heavy on my heart.
    Mr. Bochetto got it right. He attempted to enforce ethics 
on a district attorney who lacks them.
    Just a day ago we were getting off a plane, coming from San 
Antonio, Texas, and we saw a press conference. I am sorry. We 
saw a presser with Mr. Krasner and Steve Keeley, a local 
reporter. Mr. Krasner indicated that he was not aware of this 
Committee meeting until two days ago. He said a day ago, but 
that would have been two days ago. That is patently false.
    I would ask this Committee to investigate that.
    Mr. Van Drew. He should be here. He should man up and be 
here.
    Dr. Fitzgerald. I agree with you. We have to be really 
intentional about what we are saying here. We have a district 
attorney in one of the largest major cities in the country, 
who, on television yesterday, said he never knew about this 
meeting. My wife and I, on the 24th of last month, were in his 
presence, with my daughter-in-law, and about 10 of his people 
in his office, doing the presentation that we told you about. 
During the presentation we informed him of this meeting, and we 
gave him a hard copy to reinforce it. Thankfully, I sent it to 
a few other people, so I had a record.
    So, I would ask this Committee if we believe in justice to 
call the person responsible for ensuring that people in this 
city get justice on the carpet. He should be before you, or 
summoned before you now, and answer why he would go on 
television and tell the community here that he is supposed to 
serve, for the victims here he is supposed to serve, that lie. 
I can't understand how we can confuse it. We can't write it any 
other way. He did it, and he needs to be held accountable for 
it. We can prove it.
    Chair Jordan. The guy who is district attorney went on 
television and told the community that he represents, that he 
is supposed to serve, that he didn't know about this hearing, 
but you had told him specifically about it two weeks prior to 
him making that statement. Is that your testimony?
    Dr. Fitzgerald. That is correct.
    Chair Jordan. That is your testimony, Doctor?
    Dr. Fitzgerald. That is our testimony. I would let my wife 
answer it as well, but--
    Chair Jordan. I appreciate you sharing that with the 
Committee. That is important information that, frankly, 
Philadelphians need to know, and to this point that Mr. Gaetz 
and others have brought up about this effort to elect those 
kinds of individuals to the district attorney's position need 
to know about, as well.
    The gentleman yields back. I appreciate that. The gentleman 
from Maryland is recognized.
    Mr. Ivey. Thank you, Mr. Chair. I have only got five 
minutes but I do want to pursue this issue about whether Mr. 
Krasner was invited or not, but we can come back to that in a 
moment. My understanding was that he was not.
    Chair Jordan. He was invited. That wasn't what Mr. 
Fitzgerald said.
    Mr. Ivey. Yes, but just for my five minutes, I want to 
stick with that.
    Chair Jordan. We didn't invite him, but you guys could 
have, as well.
    Mr. Ivey. I just wanted to know if you did or not.
    Chair Jordan. No, we didn't.
    Mr. Ivey. OK. Let me say this. There are sort of two 
hearings going on at once here, and I want to be very 
respectful, actually, of both. On the one hand, for the 
Fitzgeralds and the O'Connors, and I want to come back to you 
in a minute, I am a former prosecutor at the Federal level in 
Washington, DC, and at the local level in Prince George's 
County, Maryland. I had to handle cases like this, almost 
exactly like both of those. So, I want to talk with you about 
it. It might make sense to do it offline, but it is a 
conversation I would ask to have with you.
    There are also a lot of numbers flying around right now 
too--and I am not from Philadelphia; I just came up for the 
hearing.
    So, I am having a hard time piecing them together. I looked 
up last night, it says homicides during Krasner's tenure, and I 
noted that the Chair said, in his opening comments, that they 
peaked in 2021, and that was at 562. They went down in 2022, to 
514, and then this past year, 2023, they went down to 410.
    Now, I also noted, when I looked up the election results, 
he was elected in 2021 with 71.8 percent of the vote. So, I am 
having trouble sort of squaring the two together, that he got--
well, I can come to you later--but, how he got that much 
support, and I guess there is another election coming up, and I 
guess we can see how it fares at that point.
    I did want to raise this issue too. As I mentioned, I was a 
prosecutor. I started in 1990 in D.C. during the height of the 
crack wars. The local DA here was a guy named Ron Castille, I 
guess. In 1989, the homicides were 476. In 1990, they were 500. 
I guess he left--that is his ghost turning the lights down? I 
don't know.
    [Laughter.]
    Mr. Ivey. I guess he left in 1991, to run for mayor, and he 
lost that race.
    I did want to note that those two numbers, 476 and 500, 
were significantly higher, actually, certainly than Krasner's 
in 2023, from 410.
    Now, normally at a hearing like this, one of the things I 
would like to do is figure out why that is the case and what 
was happening in 1989, what was happening in 1990, what is 
happening now. Then we would try and put together legislative 
priorities to figure out how to continue to bring the numbers 
down in Philadelphia and across the country. That is not what 
we are doing today.
    The Chair mentioned crazy things about policies, focused 
primarily on Philadelphia, but I have got to note a couple too. 
Ghost guns, which was referenced a few minutes ago. This is 
legislation in Congress to ban ghost guns, and there is no 
serious argument for having them available. They don't have 
serial numbers. The only reason is so they can avoid criminal 
prosecution. There are zero Republican sponsors for that bill. 
I think it is 150-plus or something on the Democratic side.
    I have got a bill called Raise the Age, which would lift it 
from 18-21 years old, for you to be old enough to buy an 
assault weapon. I didn't think that would be controversial 
because current Federal law already is that you have got to be 
21 to buy a handgun. I have zero Republican cosponsors for that 
bill. We are well over 100.
    Defund the police, which has been raised repeatedly by my 
colleagues. I have to note that I have at least one colleague 
on this panel who has a bill to defund the FBI, and another one 
who has a bill to defund the ATF. So, Ms. O'Connor, I am glad 
your case is being handled in the Federal Court, but if that 
bill were to pass they wouldn't have the apparatus to do it.
    So, it is important for us to try and figure out how to 
continue to address these problems, and they are not easy to 
address. They are very challenging in a lot of ways. I don't 
think it is fully partisan either.
    When I was walking here from the hotel I passed a billboard 
in the next block down, and it was by JPChase, not exactly a 
liberal bastion, where they are proposing efforts at reentry, 
trying to help people who are coming out of jail to get back 
integrated into the community and find jobs. I think that is 
important. In fact, I started reentry programs when I was a 
local prosecutor, because 99.999 percent of the people who go 
to jail, even for murder and rape, are going to come out 
eventually, even if they get convicted in Federal Court. So, we 
should try and find ways to help get them back on the right 
track.
    The Koch brothers, not a group I typically praise. In fact, 
this might be the first time I have ever said anything positive 
about the Koch brothers in public. I will say this. They do 
recognize that we have to try and find ways to address these 
criminal justice issues in a bipartisan way, and the partisan 
back and forth in a forum like this really doesn't get there.
    So, I am over my time, maybe not as much as some of the 
others, but I want to renew this request--you don't know about 
this but this is my fourth time doing it before this 
Committee--for us to try and get to a point where we can move 
forward with bipartisan legislation, bipartisan efforts to 
address policies that can make a difference. Some of them are 
going to be conservative. Some of them will involve keeping 
more people in jail for longer periods of time. Some of them 
won't. Some of them might also involve dealing with the fact 
that we have 300--well, 400 million guns in the United States. 
That is like more than one for any person in the United States. 
Young people in my community and across the country have far 
too easy access to getting them. As we saw in Michigan, and 
apparently in your case, as well, parents who are not willing 
to step up and keep them under control and keep them away from 
those guns.
    So, I thank all of you for being here, Ms. O'Connor, the 
Fitz-
geralds, in particular, because this is a weight you are going 
to have to carry for the rest of your lives, and you are doing 
an outstanding job with it, based on what I have seen today. I 
encourage you to do it because it is important to keep the 
pressure on. Beyond Larry Krasner, folks like the House 
Judiciary Committee, who can do bigger things than we are doing 
today, to try and address the issues that you have raised.
    Thank you for what you are doing, and Mr. Chair, I yield 
back.
    Chair Jordan. I appreciate it. The gentleman yields back, 
and I would just say to the gentleman's request for 
bipartisanship, we did that two days ago, your bill.
    Mr. Ivey. Oh, can I mention that? Can I mention that? 
Recruit and Retain. So, we passed a bill two days ago--
    Chair Jordan. The gentleman is recognized again.
    Mr. Ivey. Thank you. So I cosponsored it with a Republican 
from Texas, and we just thought the bill would fly through. One 
of my Republican colleagues actually objected to the bill. In 
fact, it was more than one. It was two. So, we ended up with a 
voice vote.
    This is a bill to get more police officers, to find ways to 
get more police officers to join and to keep them around.
    Chair Jordan. Let the record show the Chair did not object. 
I have supported the legislation.
    Mr. Ivey. I thank the Chair for that. I really do.
    That is just an example of the automatic going to corners 
and going to talking points instead of finding a way to work 
together.
    Chair Jordan. I think that bill will be on the floor in a 
couple of weeks, and will likely pass the House of 
Representatives, which is what I think the gentleman from 
Maryland would like to see.
    I appreciate the gentleman. The gentleman yields back.
    The gentleman who came the farthest, the gentleman from 
California is recognized.
    Mr. Kiley. There are two sights that we should never see in 
this country, but have become all too familiar in places like 
this. The first is open air drug markets. The second is stores 
that have to put basic merchandise under lock and key, not just 
jewelry or expensive electronics, but gardening supplies at 
Home Depot, soap and shampoo at CVS.
    These conditions make people feel unsafe, they degrade the 
quality of life, and they fuel still greater criminal activity. 
Yet, these conditions do not exist uniformly across the 
country. Rather, they are concentrated in jurisdictions like 
this one. They are the product of conscious political choices.
    So, Mr. Gerace, as one example, could you tell us about the 
Kensington neighborhood here in Philadelphia, the open air drug 
market there, and the political choices that have ushered in 
that reality?
    Mr. Gerace. I am happy to answer this question. So, this 
again points directly to Larry Krasner. The 24th Police 
District was the district I was at for 12 years. It is 
Kensington, Allegheny. In the media it is known as the 
Kensington Beach. You see videos of it. In fact, this is a very 
embarrassing Mexico-used video from Kensington Avenue as an 
antidrug commercial in Mexico. It is the land of the walking 
dead. It is disgraceful.
    I have never seen it this bad in my life, and there is one 
reason why it is this bad. It is Larry Krasner. It all points 
back to him. He has stopped the gears of the criminal justice 
system from working. When this happens, we saw the pileup down 
there. He stopped locking people up for minor possessions, 
which people down there in Kensington would lock up for heroin 
mainly, crack sometimes. Now, you are getting fentanyl. They 
are users. They are not selling. They have low levels on them. 
Now, they are not being prosecuted.
    Well, we are not just talking about sending them to jail. 
What happens is they go to court and they get put in treatment 
programs, and they get help. Not all of them. Most of them come 
back to the streets and use. They are off the street. Some of 
them do get help, and they do not come back, and they prosecute 
the drug dealers. That is not happening anymore.
    So, what we see now is it exactly points to Larry Krasner, 
is the pileup from the criminal justice system not doing what 
it is supposed to do, the drug users are not getting help, the 
drug dealers are not getting prosecuted, and we have Kensington 
Avenue. It is a disgrace.
    Mr. Kiley. That is such an important point. As these 
policies are fundamentally lacking in compassion because they 
don't get people the help that they need to turn their lives 
around.
    Mr. Bochetto, could you tell us about what the district 
attorney's approach to retail theft has been and what the 
consequences have been?
    Mr. Bochetto. Well, the consequences have been terrible. 
The memo that was circulated in the District Attorney's Office 
said that any retail theft not exceeding $500 in value will not 
be prosecuted. The line DAs are to stand down and dismiss the 
charges.
    The consequence has been rising levels, frightening rising 
levels of retail theft, to the point where major and minor 
department stores, pharmacies, bodegas are all moving out of 
Philadelphia. Wawa moved several facilities out of 
Philadelphia. H&K moved out of Philadelphia. All these 
retailers that rely on some semblance of enforcement of 
antitheft laws are moving out. The ones that haven't moved out, 
they are hiring their own private police force. They are hiring 
their own security guards. Unfortunately, we had a situation 
not long ago in Philadelphia where a private security guard 
actually shot and killed a would-be thief.
    Now, you don't want would-be thieves of minor amounts of 
money being shot to death, but that is what happens when the 
system won't act and the system won't operate, and people take 
matters into their own hands.
    Mr. Kiley. That is right.
    Mr. Bochetto. I thought, years, decades, centuries ago got 
past the idea of people taking matters into their own hands and 
having an organized law enforcement system for a civilized 
society.
    Mr. Kiley. That is right.
    Mr. Bochetto. We do not have that any longer in 
Philadelphia, thanks to Mr. Krasner.
    Mr. Kiley. The link couldn't be clearer between the 
political choices and the reality that folks are forced to cope 
with. For the last year, Mr. Chair, this Committee has been 
examining the crime crisis that exists in cities across this 
country, and everywhere we look it is the same story. It is the 
same three causes. It is criminal laws that don't have 
appropriate consequences for criminal activity, it is police 
departments that have been deprived of funding and personnel, 
and it is prosecutors who refuse to fairly and even-handedly 
enforce the law. It is the triumph of politics over public 
safety.
    I agree with my colleague from Maryland 100 percent. We 
need to have bipartisan support for restoring the proper place 
of public safety. Fortunately, that is what you are seeing 
right now, is the pendulum is starting to swing back toward 
sanity. Even in my home State of California, the district 
attorney of San Francisco was recalled. The district attorney 
of the neighboring county, Alameda, where Oakland is on the 
verge of being recalled. Police departments that had their 
funding cut have had it restored, and a ballot initiative that 
would reverse some of our worst drug and theft laws is gaining 
overwhelming support. So, the work of this Committee has been 
very important in swinging the pendulum back the other way.
    As a final note, I just want to say thank you to the 
victims and families who are here. Your voice is incredibly 
important, and I can't imagine how painful it must be to relive 
the loss and the trauma and the horror that you went through. 
Your voices are incredibly important in catalyzing the change 
that this city and this country needs.
    Thank you. I yield back.
    Chair Jordan. The gentleman yields back. The Chair now 
recognizes the gentleman from this great State, Mr. Meuser, 
from the State of Pennsylvania.
    Mr. Meuser. Thank you, Mr. Chair, very much. It is great to 
be here. I appreciate you inviting me and waiving me onto this 
Committee. Incredibly compelling testimonies. I just feel so 
much emotion toward each one of your testimonies. Certainly, to 
the Fitzgeralds, beyond condolences. Ms. O'Connor, so many 
real-life situations that you are expressing to us. Your 
testimony is very real. It must be very frustrating for me to 
hear someone deny the realities of crime of the sense of safety 
that people have, where smash-and-grabs and we have this new 
migrant crime, we have squatting, we have all these new terms, 
basically, that have been created just over the last couple of 
years because of the reasons that have been very well expressed 
here.
    Also, the character of the district attorney. The list goes 
on. We in Pennsylvania know this individual and know his 
shortcomings, and yet he does get reelected overwhelmingly, and 
he can't even tell the truth about whether or not he knew about 
being here, which, under testimony, Dr. Fitzgerald stated 
emphatically, yet was even questioned. Even that was not 
treated in a credible manner. If we can't face reality, we are 
certainly not going to solve the problem.
    So, crime is out of control. Since Krasner has been in, 
murders in Philadelphia, no matter how you slice it, are up 
over 30 percent. There is minimal enforcement that takes place. 
Look at our campuses. Even University of Pennsylvania, 
certainly Columbia, UCLA. The list goes on. There is no 
enforcement taking place. It was allowed to fester until it got 
to a breaking point, and finally they went in. That is what is 
happening on our streets, when you just let it go. I don't have 
to tell you, Mr. Fitzgerald or Mr. Gerace. You know it, you see 
it, and you live it.
    So, the reasons are we have discussed. Prosecutors are 
simply not prosecuting. As a matter of fact, in Philadelphia, 
the prosecution rate of violent criminals is down under 30 
percent. Six or seven years ago, before he got into office it 
was nearly 70 percent. You know what? In most cities, many 
cities anyway, it is that high.
    Compare Philadelphia to San Diego. San Diego has a 
prosecution rate above 70 percent. Krasner, by the way, no 
longer provides the data on his prosecution rate, so we think 
it is about 30 percent. Similar sized cities, Philadelphia is a 
little bit larger. Philly, last year, down from 509 murders, 
which was more than New York City, with one quarter the 
population, last year was 389. San Diego, that prosecutes 
violent crimes over 70 percent of the time had 45 murders, 
homicides, murders. So, anyway, that is No. 1.
    Second, is the defunding of the police. The numbers are 
clear. The numbers don't lie. Since 2020, Philadelphia Police 
Department is down $66 million. Now, the size of their budget 
and all is, I believe, about $750 million, but I mean, it is 
almost 10 percent since 2020, with inflation and everything 
else. So, hundreds, thousands, Mr. Gerace stated, down in 
recruitment and in force.
    So, let me ask you, Mr. Fitzgerald. We already stated how 
Krasner lied, so we won't cover that again. Do you believe that 
Krasner is not prosecuting those who break gun laws, not 
enforcing simple gun laws that some feel are the answer to all 
this. Are gun laws that exist in Pennsylvania and Philadelphia 
being enforced or are they being let out, as well?
    Dr. Fitzgerald. As a chief of police in another State now 
it is hard for me to focus simply on Philadelphia. However, I 
obviously have deep roots here within the Police Department, 
and I will tell you that there is a dramatic effect in the city 
for when there is a lack of prosecution for gun-related crimes. 
I will cite an instance.
    I have a family member that is in politics here who was in 
his district, and he said hello to someone that he knew who 
probably should have been in jail. He talked to the person and 
said, ``What is going on? You just got arrested for having a 
gun.'' This person has been arrested five times for having 
firearms in their possession, and said, ``You know why I'm 
out.''
    Mr. Meuser. So, if these gun laws were enforced you think 
there would be less gun violence?
    Dr. Fitzgerald. I believe that if these gun laws here in 
the State, in the commonwealth of Pennsylvania, were being 
prosecuted effectively, were being pursued effectively, would 
work.
    We are not perfect. No one is perfect. We are not asking 
that the District Attorney's Office be perfect or even 
legislature. What we can ask for is there be a semblance of 
civility, and that civility comes with having the rule of law. 
When the rule of law is not enforced you have anarchy. We are 
seeing anarchy in our cities.
    I am in Colorado now. I have been a police chief in Iowa. I 
have been a police chief in Texas twice, in Pennsylvania. 
Fortunately, I am able to sort of see across the country what 
the ebbs and flows of violent crime cause people and what gun-
related violence cause.
    Mr. Meuser. Mr. Gerace, do you feel that the morale of 
police is low due to disrespect, defunding, and demoralizing?
    Mr. Gerace. One hundred percent. So, these criminals, they 
know, they tell these cops to their face, ``Uncle Larry is 
going to let me out in a couple of hours,'' and that is exactly 
what happens. So, the numbers in these carjackings and 
shootings, one of the reasons why juveniles are being ushered 
in, they are being arrested, and they are out within five 
hours. We all know the juvenile gets in trouble for something, 
there are no consequences. They are going to keep going.
    Mr. Meuser. What can we do about it?
    Mr. Gerace. Prosecute. Prosecute the crimes. This is almost 
a banana republic. It is a joke. It was mentioned as a circus. 
I know where the clowns are. You keep saying you want new gun 
laws. Let's enforce the gun laws that are on the books now, and 
we will see what happens. We don't need new laws. We need the 
prosecutor to prosecute the laws that are on the books right 
now.
    We are talking about Larry Krasner's election results. You 
need to know the nuances in Philadelphia. The election is in 
the primary. He won by six percent. Seventeen percent showed up 
to vote. That is it. A teddy bear could win the primary, and 
when it came to election the Republican will lose to the teddy 
bear in Philadelphia. That is the way it is.
    Mr. Meuser. We get what we vote for.
    Ms. O'Connor, I am going to give you the last word, please. 
Is there anything that you would like to say to Larry Krasner, 
if he did show up, as he was invited?
    [Inaudible.]
    Mr. Meuser. Excuse me. I am questioning right this moment. 
Did you invite him? The gentleman here did. Hold on a second. 
Larry Krasner stated that he did not know about--whether he was 
invited or not, he did not know about the hearing, and Dr. 
Fitzgerald testified, under oath, that he did, in fact, know 
about the hearing.
    Mr. Ivey. I think the Chair addressed that a few minutes 
ago.
    Mr. Meuser. You want to sit there and defend George Soros? 
You are the one here who--Larry Krasner receives $1.5 million 
dollars. I am in the middle of my testimony.
    Mr. Nadler. I am asking how Mr. Fitzgerald knew that Larry 
Krasner knew about this hearing.
    Chair Jordan. We did not--I am going to let Mr. Fitzgerald 
explain it, because he said it right. What he said was there 
was a hearing. He told District Attorney Krasner there was a 
hearing, and after that, a week and a half later, Mr. Krasner 
said he didn't know about the hearing. That's not being 
truthful because he heard it from a guy who was coming to 
testify and knew about the hearing. Obviously, because him and 
his wife are testifying. That is what took place.
    Mr. Ivey. Well, Mr. Chair, just to remind you of what you 
just said a few minutes ago, you stated that the Committee had 
not invited him.
    Chair Jordan. No, I was clear about that. We didn't invite 
him.
    Mr. Ivey. I think that was the only point that was being 
made.
    Mr. Meuser. The witness, Dr. Fitzgerald, notified them--
    Mr. Nadler. Mr. Chair, I would point out that--
    Chair Jordan. Hang on. Hang on.
    [Simultaneous speaking.]
    Mr. Nadler. Mr. Chair, I would point out--
    Chair Jordan. The Ranking Member is recognized.
    Mr. Nadler. --there was no point to Mr. Krasner coming to 
this hearing if he couldn't testify.
    Mr. Meuser. Well, Ranking Member, you--
    Mr. Nadler. He should have the ability to testify.
    Mr. Meuser. Ranking Member, you lost your credibility when 
you compared this to a nonviolent, frivolous suit in New York, 
while we have people here whose family members have been 
murdered, OK. Your credibility was gone at that point.
    Chair Jordan. Last question.
    Mr. Meuser. Ms. O'Connor, back to you, please.
    Chair Jordan. Ms. O'Connor.
    Mr. Meuser. If DA Krasner were here, what would you like to 
say to him?
    Ms. O'Connor. I think I said it in my testimony. Jim got up 
to go to work that night, and his job was to save and protect 
our city, and he was supposed to come home to me in the 
morning. He did his job. If you did yours and kept criminals 
where they are supposed to be, behind bars, maybe Jim would 
still be here today. Do your job.
    Mr. Meuser. Thank you. I yield back, Mr. Chair.
    Chair Jordan. The gentleman yields back. Ms. O'Connor, I 
want to thank you for being here. We thank Jim for his service 
to this community and to our country, and to your family, as 
well. To Dr. and Ms. Fitzgerald, the same to you for what 
Christopher, how he served. Marissa, thank you, as well. God 
bless you for being here.
    I want to thank all our witnesses for being here today at 
this important hearing, where I do think, as I indicated to Mr. 
Ivey, that we can do some bipartisan things that will help. We 
have also got to get rid of the crazy policies that are leading 
to the consequences that we see in so many communities.
    That concludes today's hearing. Without objection, all 
Members will have five legislative days to submit additional 
written questions for the witnesses or additional materials for 
the record.
    The hearing is adjourned.
    [Whereupon, at 11:45 a.m., the hearing was adjourned.]

    All materials submitted for the record by Members of the 
Committee on the Judiciary can be found at: https://
docs.house.gov/Committee/Calendar/ByEvent.aspx?EventID=117234.

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