[House Hearing, 118 Congress]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]


                  U.S. DEPARTMENT OF VETERANS AFFAIRS
                    BUDGET REQUEST FOR FISCAL YEARS
                             2025 AND 2026
=======================================================================

                                HEARING

                               BEFORE THE

                     COMMITTEE ON VETERANS' AFFAIRS

                     U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

                    ONE HUNDRED EIGHTEENTH CONGRESS

                             SECOND SESSION

                               __________

                        THURSDAY, APRIL 11, 2024

                               __________

                           Serial No. 118-61

                               __________

       Printed for the use of the Committee on Veterans' Affairs
       
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                    Available via http://govinfo.gov
                    
                                __________

                   U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE                    
55-605                 WASHINGTON : 2025                  
          
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                    COMMITTEE ON VETERANS' AFFAIRS

                     MIKE BOST, Illinois, Chairman

AUMUA AMATA COLEMAN RADEWAGEN,       MARK TAKANO, California, Ranking 
    American Samoa, Vice-Chairwoman      Member
JACK BERGMAN, Michigan               JULIA BROWNLEY, California
NANCY MACE, South Carolina           MIKE LEVIN, California
MATTHEW M. ROSENDALE, SR., Montana   CHRIS PAPPAS, New Hampshire
MARIANNETTE MILLER-MEEKS, Iowa       FRANK J. MRVAN, Indiana
GREGORY F. MURPHY, North Carolina    SHEILA CHERFILUS-MCCORMICK, 
C. SCOTT FRANKLIN, Florida               Florida
DERRICK VAN ORDEN, Wisconsin         CHRISTOPHER R. DELUZIO, 
MORGAN LUTTRELL, Texas                   Pennsylvania
JUAN CISCOMANI, Arizona              MORGAN MCGARVEY, Kentucky
ELIJAH CRANE, Arizona                DELIA C. RAMIREZ, Illinois
KEITH SELF, Texas                    GREG LANDSMAN, Ohio
JENNIFER A. KIGGANS, Virginia        NIKKI BUDZINSKI, Illinois

                       Jon Clark, Staff Director
                  Matt Reel, Democratic Staff Director

Pursuant to clause 2(e)(4) of Rule XI of the Rules of the House, public 
hearing records of the Committee on Veterans' Affairs are also 
published in electronic form. The printed hearing record remains the 
official version. Because electronic submissions are used to prepare 
both printed and electronic versions of the hearing record, the process 
of converting between various electronic formats may introduce 
unintentional errors or omissions. Such occurrences are inherent in the 
current publication process and should diminish as the process is 
further refined.
                        
                        C  O  N  T  E  N  T  S

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                        THURSDAY, APRIL 11, 2024

                                                                   Page

                           OPENING STATEMENTS

The Honorable Mike Bost, Chairman................................     1
The Honorable Mark Takano, Ranking Member........................     3

                               WITNESSES
                                Panel 1

The Honorable Denis McDonough, Secretary, U.S. Department of 
  Veterans Affairs...............................................     4

                                Panel 2

Mr. Patrick Murray, National Legislative Service Director, 
  Veterans of Foreign Wars.......................................    36

        Accompanied by:

    Mr. Shane Liermann, Deputy National Legislative Director, 
        Disabled American Veterans

    Mr. Roscoe Butler, Senior Health Policy Advisor, Paralyzed 
        Veterans of America

                                APPENDIX
                    Prepared Statements Of Witnesses

The Honorable Denis McDonough Prepared Statement.................    47

Mr. Patrick Murray, Mr. Shane Liermann, and Mr. Roscoe Butler 
  Prepared Statement.............................................    55

                       Statements For The Record

Questions for the Record Submitted by Juan Ciscomani, Jennifer 
  Kiggans and Morgan McGarvey....................................    61

U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs Response to Questions for the 
  Record Submitted by Mike Levin and Julia Brownley..............    64

 
                  U.S. DEPARTMENT OF VETERANS AFFAIRS
                    BUDGET REQUEST FOR FISCAL YEARS
                             2025 AND 2026

                              ----------                              


                        THURSDAY, APRIL 11, 2024

                    Committee on Veterans' Affairs,
                             U.S. House of Representatives,
                                                    Washington, DC.
    The committee met, pursuant to notice, at 9:03 a.m., in 
room 360, Cannon House Office Building, Hon. Mike Bost 
(chairman of the committee) presiding.
    Present: Representatives Bost, Bergman, Mace, Rosendale, 
Miller-Meeks, Murphy, Franklin, Van Orden, Luttrell, Ciscomani, 
Crane, Self, Kiggans, Takano, Brownley, Levin, Pappas, Mrvan, 
Cherfilus-McCormick, Deluzio, McGarvey, Ramirez, Landsman, and 
Budzinski.

            OPENING STATEMENT OF MIKE BOST, CHAIRMAN

    The Chairman. Good morning. The committee will come to 
order. Now I want to welcome Secretary McDonough to review the 
U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs (VA) budget request for 
2025 and 2026. I want to let everyone know that we are expected 
to recess about 10:30 for the Japanese Prime Minister to 
address the joint session and then we will resume the hearing 
after that. I want to thank all the witnesses for their 
patience when we are dealing with this situation so I want to 
get right to it.
    So you know, the President's request, $369 billion for the 
VA Fiscal Year 2025. Now, that is a nearly 10 percent increase 
from this year. In March, Congress already appropriated the 
vast majority of the 2025 funding or $295 billion. In June of 
last year, Congress already appropriated $24.5 billion for 
toxic exposure fund for 2025.
    We are here today considering the remaining VA account for 
2025 and the advance request for 2026. Congress is all always--
I want to say this real clear. Congress has always prioritized 
veterans and met VA needs. In fact, for the most part the 
Department already has received their funding for Fiscal Year 
2025.
    I do not want to hear any more baseline rumors and scare 
tactics about Congress cutting off support for veterans like we 
heard last year. It is disrespectful to the men and women who 
have served our great Nation to spread lies in an attempt to 
score political points. I will not--we will not go. We cannot. 
I want to have a serious conversation about how VA is managing 
their taxpayer dollars that Congress provides.
    There is a real problem here. Somehow, despite the nearly 
$17 billion increase this year and $33 billion requested for 
next year, the second largest Federal agency can barely keep 
its lights on. Hiring has been cut back or frozen. The 
healthcare workforce is shrinking by 10,000 positions. 
Construction to modernize the VA facilities has flatlined to 
only two major projects. Information Technology (IT) 
investments have been cut by 99 percent. Some existing projects 
barely have enough funding to continue and new projects are off 
the table.
    The White House seems to be shortchanging many of the 
priorities that President Biden presents in his own budget and 
many of our priorities as well. The overall request increase is 
large, but a lot of the money seems to be in the wrong places. 
The simple explanation is that VA used the enhanced pay 
authority that Congress provided in the The Sergeant First 
Class Heath Robinson Honoring our Promise to Address 
Comprehensive Toxics (PACT) Act and elsewhere to spend 
themselves into deficit.
    In many VA offices they can no longer afford the employees 
they have now, much less recruit talented new ones. It is the 
opposite of what Congress intended when we provided these 
authorities.
    I absolutely support the PACT Act, but VA implementation of 
parts of the law is getting very confusing. We are hearing from 
some Members' offices that the VA medical centers (VAMC) do not 
even understand the new eligibility criteria or veterans.
    The whole VA budget is reliant on gimmicks that get more 
and more complicated every year. I am talking about transfers, 
carryovers, transformation funds, unfunded requirements, doing 
away with the second bite for healthcare, and a mandatory 
construction account that does not exist.
    Yes, despite Congress' intent, VA is using toxic exposure 
funds as another budget gimmick. They are shifting regular 
expenses out of the baseline budget, dumping them into toxic 
exposures fund. Like it or not, 40 percent of the toxic 
exposure funds is community care. The VA budget simply does not 
have to be this complicated, especially because, unlike the 
Federal agencies, Congress always found ways to provide VA--
prioritize VA. We always have and I am confident that we always 
will.
    I have faith in the Appropriations Committee to sort out 
the VA's accounts. We have to do our part, too, as the 
authorizing committee. I want effective programs and realistic 
estimates. I want the dollars to actually benefit the veterans, 
family members, and survivors. We always have to stand guard 
against growth in the bureaucracy.
    We have in front of us one of the most confusing VA budgets 
I have ever seen. Somehow a 10 percent overall increase 
contains a lot of cuts in a lot of different areas that, 
frankly, do not make sense, but I am committed to protecting 
healthcare and benefits. I hope we work together to do that.
    With that, I want to thank Secretary McDonough and his 
representatives and the representatives of Disabled American 
Veterans (DAV), Paralyzed Veterans of America (PVA), and 
Veterans of Foreign Wars (VFW), who will also be testifying on 
the second panel.
    With that, Ranking Member, I now recognize you for your 
opening statement.

        OPENING STATEMENT OF MARK TAKANO, RANKING MEMBER

    Mr. Takano. Well, thank you, Mr. Chairman. Today we welcome 
Secretary McDonough and veteran service organization 
representatives of the independent budget (IB) to discuss the 
Department of Veterans Affairs' budget request for Fiscal Year 
2025.
    Budgets reflect our priorities. That is true in how we 
spend our money and our time. This year's request from the 
President of three of $369.3 billion in funding for the 
Department of Veterans Affairs is a 10 percent increase over 
Fiscal Year 2024. There is no secret that the VA's budget has 
grown significantly since the start of the global war on 
terror, but this is a feature, not a bug.
    President Biden's budget for Fiscal Year 2025 illustrates a 
key pillar of his unity agenda to support veterans. This year's 
requested increase reflects the President upholding promises 
made to those who have served since 9/11 and is a step in the 
right direction to care for aging Vietnam veterans.
    During the last year, the PACT Act has expanded VA 
healthcare and benefits to millions of veterans exposed to 
toxins and other hazards. VA has approved more than 862,000 
PACT Act-related claims, and more than 400,000 veterans have 
newly enrolled in VA healthcare.
    Last year, VA also permanently housed over 45,000 homeless 
veterans, provided suicide prevention emergency care for over 
50,000 veterans thanks to the Veterans' Comprehensive 
Prevention, Access to Care and Treatment (COMPACT) Act. 
Expanded services for veterans at risk of suicide delivered an 
all-time yearly record number of healthcare appointments and so 
much more.
    Now, this is just the start of what we can accomplish with 
a well-funded VA. However, we know that Republicans have a 
different vision for VA. Their chosen Presidential candidate's 
plan as laid out in his project 2025 proposal will mean the end 
of the VA as we know it. It means a spoils system that doles 
out contracts to corporate interests and it means the 
privatization of VA healthcare. Let me repeat that. It means 
the privatization of VA healthcare.
    When VA does well it does really well. VA outperforms the 
private healthcare sector in terms of quality and patient 
satisfaction while my Republican colleagues continually push a 
narrative of supposed failure that is not based on reality and 
is not based on the reality of many veterans.
    Just recently, a Vietnam veteran who receives his care at 
VA let me know how much he values it. In response to 
congressional efforts to erode that direct care the veteran 
told me, ``Don't let them mess it up.'' As such, I am alarmed 
to observe the growth in community care budgets since the Trump 
administration implemented new access standards in 2019.
    VA's healthcare budget is out of balance and rather than 
directing billions of dollars to the community, we must provide 
VA with the necessary resources and staffing to ensure that 
direct care is robust, modern, and meeting veterans where they 
are.
    We need to continue to do more to house our homeless 
veterans and continue to provide VA the ability to hire more 
staff to meet the demands of more veterans using VA healthcare 
and benefits. Community care is more expensive than direct 
care. If we were truly concerned about the cost and fiscal 
responsibility we would invest more in direct care as it is 
less expensive and most effective for veterans.
    Now, this is my 12th year in Congress. In my first year we 
dealt with the Phoenix wait time scandal. I was part of the 
negotiations on the Veterans Choice Act. As part of that we saw 
that Phoenix, like many other places in this country, struggled 
with a shortage of healthcare providers both at VA and in the 
community.
    In the Choice Act I championed a provision that increased 
the number of medical residency spots at VA by 1,500 positions. 
This is helping to increase the supply of physicians both at VA 
and the community and this is why investing in VA is so 
important.
    I know that ramping up VA's internal capacity is not 
simple. It will take time to bring veterans back from the 
community and into VA care, but it is something we must do.
    I am sure we will hear today Republicans continue to be 
mouthpieces for extreme ideologies that amplify messaging that 
VA healthcare should be privatized. That is the direction we 
are headed if we do not take the time, provide the funding, or 
proceed with thoughtfulness to rebalance direct care and 
community care.
    I look forward to hearing from Secretary McDonough and our 
Veterans Service Organizations (VSO) partners today, and I 
yield back.
    The Chairman. I thank the ranking member for his comments. 
Even though some probably are not right, but that is all right.
    Secretary McDonough, I am going to swear you in now if you 
would. Would you please stand and raise your right hand? You 
were way ahead of that.
    [Witness sworn.]
    The Chairman. Thank you and let the record reflect the 
witness has answered in the affirmative.
    Now I would like to recognize Hon. Denis McDonough for 10 
minutes for his opening remarks. Thank you again for being 
here.

                  STATEMENT OF DENIS MCDONOUGH

    Mr. McDonough. Chairman Bost, Ranking Member Takano, and 
distinguished members of the committee, thank you very much for 
the opportunity to testify today.
    Sergeant First Class Constance Cotton served honorably in 
the United States Army, including in combat during the Gulf 
War. She is a survivor of several incidents of military sexual 
trauma, MST. She shared her story of MST with pastors and with 
lay leaders.
    Eventually she was connected to the VA in Philadelphia and 
its chaplain, Reverend Chris Antal, and Vet Center counselor 
Renee Smith. For nearly a decade, Chaplain Antal has helped 
Constance heal from all her injuries, while Renee has helped 
her deal with post-traumatic stress. Constance lives in New 
Jersey, but chooses the Philadelphia VA and Vet Center for her 
care.
    She says, ``I like that they really understand the 
challenges that veterans face.'' She goes on, ``I am a walking 
miracle. They helped me--helped to give me a sense of community 
again.''
    We owe vets like Constance, and all vets, including the 
many vets on this committee, our very best. We are fighting 
like hell to give them exactly that. We are delivering more 
care and more benefits to more veterans than at any time in 
VA's history.
    Over the course of the last year we have enrolled over 
400,000 new vets in VA healthcare, 30 percent more than the 
previous year and an increase in each of the 50 states of this 
awesome Republic. Over 6.5 million vets had 118 million 
clinical visits, 47 million in the community, 42 million at VA, 
29 million via VA telehealth. The last data point bears 
repeating. Millions of vets use VA telehealth.
    Now on to benefits. We have decided over 1.9 million claims 
shattering the previous year's record by 16 percent. You have 
all heard of vets' frustration with Compensation and Pension 
(C&P) exams, justifiable, but in the last year we processed 2.4 
million C&P exams, a record by nearly 30 percent and took an 
average of 31 days to complete them.
    In total, we delivered $163 billion in earned benefits to 
over 6 million veterans and survivors, another record. The PACT 
Act has opened the doors to millions of toxic exposed veterans 
and their survivors bringing new generations of vets to VA 
healthcare and expanding benefits for many more.
    The PACT Act is also delivering additional benefits for 
vets, the GI Bill, Veterans Readiness and Employment (VR&E), 
homeownership, survivor's pensions, and so much more, benefits 
that not only improve veterans' lives, but strengthen the 
American economy. We still have a lot of work to do.
    The President's proposed budget fully funds VA so we can 
continue doing that important work. This budget is also about 
preventing veteran suicide, ending veteran homelessness, 
supporting healthcare for women vets, modernizing our IT 
systems, processing benefits, and honoring vets with eternal 
resting places.
    No single investment is more critical to veterans that we 
serve in VA's future than the people we hire and retain. We 
hired at record levels last year, onboarding teammates like 
Rose Zundel, one of VA's newest Registered Nurses (RN). Rose 
spent 20 years working as a nurse in her community, but she 
chose to come to VA to serve vets like her dad and her grandpa. 
That is the kind of deep devotion that characterizes VA 
clinicians.
    Rose said that she is grateful for the critical skills 
incentive (CSI) that she received, that it shows VA's 
commitment to supporting its employees and that she hopes 1 day 
to retire with VA. The work of caring for the brave men and 
women who fight our wars and their families, survivors, and 
caregivers is in full swing and continues to grow.
    The John S. McCain III, Daniel K. Akaka, and Samuel R. 
Johnson VA Maintaining Internal Systems an Strengthening 
Integrated Outside Networks (MISSION) Act, COVID pandemic, and 
the PACT Act, all of these are products of just the last 6 
years and any one of them would have been monumentally 
challenging. Together they have changed the healthcare 
landscape and the statutory basis for the work at VA.
    As I said, any one of those on their own would have led to 
monumental change. Together they represent a seismic shift in 
the way veterans receive care and benefits. The way they 
change--they have changed the way we do business creating 
enormous opportunities for veterans at VA. Right now we are at 
a critical moment for shaping and securing the future of 
veteran healthcare in America.
    We will work to reliably offer a VA care option to every 
veteran, even vets who qualify for community care under the 
Mission Act. We want to bring as many vets as possible into our 
care because study after study shows that vets do better at VA. 
We have made considerable progress, whether in person, via 
telehealth, in our community living centers, mobile medical 
units, elsewhere, vets can access VA care at almost every turn.
    What we do this year and over the next several years, 
building on the generosity of Congress in the last many years 
and the innovative hard work of VA's workforce, the best in the 
Federal Government, will determine what vets can expect from VA 
and how we deliver that high standard of care well into the 
future. This budget is the next step to continue delivering 
more care, more benefits to more vets for generations to come.
    We look forward to collaborating even more effectively with 
you to build on what is working and to fix what is not. Thank 
you. I look forward to your questions.

    [The Prepared Statement Of Denis McDonough Appears In The 
Appendix]

    The Chairman. Thank you, Mr. Secretary. The written 
statement of Secretary McDonough will be entered into the 
hearing record. Now, we will start on questions and I now 
recognize myself for questions.
    Secretary McDonough, the Fiscal Responsibility Act exempted 
veterans' healthcare from any cuts, yet that is where you have 
had a hiring freeze and the biggest budget problems. Can you 
explain why, what that is doing?
    Mr. McDonough. Yes, thanks so much, Mr. Chairman. VA's 
total request represents a 10 percent increase over Fiscal Year 
2023 and it is comparable to Fiscal Year 2024, as you said in 
your opening remarks, but let me just note a couple of things. 
It appears at first blush that it represents a decrease in 
community care, but one of the biggest changes in the last 
several years, partly because of your generosity over the 
course of many years during the pandemic, is additional funding 
streams. One of those is unused balances from previous years.
    We have been very careful to reinvest those to include in 
medical care. Also, under the PACT Act, you overwhelmingly give 
us a new authority under the TEF, the toxic exposure fund. When 
you consider carryover and TEF, in fact, community care grows. 
I think as you have seen in each of your districts, community 
care continues to grow at a very rapid rate.
    The fact is that when you take the total picture, TEF, 
carryover, and the very generous request for discretionary 
funding, VA care grows and is sufficient to meet the challenges 
that we face as a health system.
    It is true that across both non-defense and defense 
accounts in the discretionary that the budget agreement forced 
difficult choices. We made those difficult choices and we have 
put those in black and white. I am here today to defend those 
and to be honest with you.
    After having the best hiring year in 30 years at VA last 
year, we are well-positioned to provide care. Having seen that 
this year's cap, like you guys know this better than I do, 
those caps it appears to me are not going anywhere, in which 
case the prudent thing to do is to begin to make sure that we 
are ready to operate in that difficult budget picture. That is 
what this budget does. It makes hard choices, but we put them 
out there for you all to see.
    Last, I am going to just give you one story. I just was 
talking to our leadership in Texas yesterday. Our hospital 
Chief Executive Officer (CEO) in San Antonio had a difficult 
choice to make. Does she hire two Gastroenterologist (GI) docs 
that she has been looking for 3 years and she can now hire them 
because of the CSIs, because of more competitive hiring, and 
because docs want to come work at VA because of the ability to 
make decisions based on the veteran's best interests, not 
clearing it through Blue Cross/Blue Shield. Okay?
    She made the decision to hire those two providers. That is 
the right decision. That is not a hiring freeze. That is a 
strategic choice to make sure that we have the best providers 
available for our vets. This budget allows that to continue and 
that will continue.
    The Chairman. Okay. Hopefully. The next question I have 
got, right now not a problem that you caused, not a problem we 
caused, but there is another body across the rotunda that 
caused it. They kind of torpedoed what was the infrastructure 
review commissions. How are you going to maintain the health 
facilities and give veterans care closer to where they live and 
fund the community care if you cannot adjust where your 
footprint goes?
    Mr. McDonough. Yes, thanks. Thanks for the question, Mr. 
Chairman. Let me just say right up front because I know that to 
you and to Ms. Budzinski and to others, the new facility in St. 
Louis, a major priority, it is--remains our major priority. We 
had hoped to get some funding in Fiscal Year 2024 and our 
budget request for Fiscal Year 2025, which was finalized before 
2024 was finalized, as you look at it you get a sense that we 
had anticipated there would be some progress on that. 
Nevertheless, we anticipate there will be funding for Fiscal 
Year 2026 for St. Louis one and two.
    We have instituted a strategy here on our infrastructure to 
maximize the dollars that we get, and you see that in this 
year's request with major investments in West LA and then 
across the system, significant investments in minor 
construction. You all raised the cap on that to $30 million 
which allows us to move with much greater alacrity on new 
outpatient clinics to get them closer to veterans. Then we are 
also making sure that we are prioritizing working with our 
interagency partners, including the U.S. Department of Defense 
(DOD), which I think you have all witnessed itself is 
reexamining very closely its balance of care between the 
community and the direct care system, so we are using the VA 
providers in DOD facilities to get that care closer to 
veterans.
    Three good examples, Shaw Air Force Base outside 
Sacramento; Fort Campbell in Kentucky and Tennessee where we 
have a Community Based Outpatient Clinic (CBOC) open in the 
fort hospital on Fort Campbell; and then third at the Navy 
Medical Center in Pensacola, Florida, which reopened as a site 
for surgery, ambulatory surgery. We will expand that to a 
fuller CBOC for vets' care later this year at no expense, no 
additional expense to the taxpayers for that veteran care. 
Those are existing facilities that allows us to provide care to 
veterans, as I say, at no additional infrastructure cost to the 
taxpayers.
    The Chairman. I am over on time, but I do need to figure--
and so I am glad you mentioned St. Louis. I hope you are going 
to work--that we can get a commitment to work with you----
    Mr. McDonough. You got that. You got that.
    The Chairman.--on making sure that is brought back on.
    Mr. McDonough. Yes.
    The Chairman. There is also a quick concern that I have. We 
were out in the district this last week. We have seen photos in 
my constituents for foreclosed homes that VA manages. They are 
invested in--they are infested with mold, stripped of 
appliances, occupied by squatters.
    Yesterday VA announced the Veterans Affairs Servicing 
Purchase (VASP) Program , which will be buying veterans default 
mortgages. I am very concerned about this, and I am working on 
legislation to give veterans a better solution. The new program 
will create huge increases in properties that VA will own 
because some will be inevitably defaulted on. How are you going 
to manage those right quick and then I am going to----
    Mr. McDonough. Yes, Chairman, thanks very much and thanks 
for the heads-up about what is happening at home in your 
district. We will make sure--I will make sure that we 
specifically follow-up on those.
    Fact is that our track record at VA on mortgage financing 
is best in industry. Foreclosures among VA mortgage holders are 
extraordinarily rare. Nevertheless, because of the tumult in 
the real estate market as a result of the pandemic, there are 
about 40,000 mortgage holders whose, through no fault of their 
own, whose mortgages are at risk.
    The VASP program, building on existing authority that we 
have, you know, which has been over the course of the last 
couple of days not uniformly because I know there is critiques 
of it here on the committee--we take those very seriously--but 
have been warmly received among many veterans groups as well as 
the mortgage industry, underscores that this is the most cost-
effective way to keep veterans in their house.
    We take that very, very seriously. We think that the risk 
that VA takes on in the event of those 40,000 mortgages is 
manageable because of the safeguards we have built into the 
program because of what I anticipate will be your very 
aggressive oversight.
    The costs even in extremis of any risk there are far 
exceeded by the potential costs and disruption for those 
veterans if we do not take this step for those 40,000 cases. I 
know that this will be an issue both throughout the rest of 
this hearing, Mr. Chairman, and I welcome that, but the one 
thing that I want to reassure you of is, you know, we are not 
going to be--we are going to be an open book with you on this.
    We think that the oversight actually will strengthen our 
performance of the VASP program, but we also think it is both 
building on existing authority and a reasonable investment for 
those 40,000 vets.
    The Chairman. Thank you. I am way over on time.
    Ranking Member, you were recognized.
    Mr. Takano. Well, thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    Thank you for being here, Mr. Secretary. Do you agree with 
my assertion in my opening statement that overall direct care 
is less expensive to deliver than care in the community?
    Mr. McDonough. Well, like, I mean, I would say three 
things. One, study after study shows that the care that vets 
get in the direct care system leads to higher health, more 
improved health outcomes so better health outcomes, one.
    Two, it is true that the investment that we have made over 
the life of VA, and look, let me just underscore again my 
appreciation for this committee's support and the entire 
Congress' support on a bipartisan basis for historic 
investments in VA, including throughout the pandemic, those 
investments mean that the unit cost per care over time because 
of the investment in the infrastructure to date makes VA a 
longer term better outcomes-based investment for the taxpayers.
    Then I will say that we are witnessing a great degree of 
variability. This is I think a very real policy challenge for 
us basically at VA, but also for Congress, which is it is very 
difficult to run a system that is both a direct care system and 
functionally an insurance company. There are a lot of steps 
that you would take under that scenario that lead you to 
inefficiencies, rob you of economies of scale.
    As we consider the future of VA coming out of these three 
monumental changes, the MISSION Act, the pandemic, and PACT 
Act, I think we want to get our hands around just how much risk 
we can take and not--I call it the cost in community care 
variable. That is half right. It is variable in one direction, 
namely up.
    Then the cost of the fixed care--the fixed cost of the 
direct care system that makes for a very difficult challenge 
for us in the years ahead. I look forward to working with the 
Congress on that.
    Mr. Takano. Well, so my question was pretty simple. I mean, 
a three-part answer. In your estimation is it----
    Mr. McDonough. Yes.
    Mr. Takano. It is less expensive to provide care----
    Mr. McDonough. I believe that we do, yes.
    Mr. Takano. You know, over the last few years VA has 
delivered more care and benefits than at any other time in 
history. I commend you and the hardworking employees at the VA 
for doing that and all the efforts you have gone into 
implementation of the PACT Act. When VA delivers it delivers 
well, and I think ensuring a balance between direct care and 
community care is more important than ever.
    That said, I want to make sure I understand your 2025 
budget request. First, you are proposing a transfer of $7.3 
billion from the medical services or direct care account to the 
community care account in order to help cover the estimated 
obligations of $40.9 billion for community care in Fiscal Year 
2025.
    Second, you plan to reduce the overall number of Veterans 
Health Administration (VHA) employees by about 10,000 between 
now and the start of Fiscal Year 2025.
    Third, you are also preparing to transfer $600 million to 
the community care account from the medical facilities account 
which covers things like VA facility management, renovations, 
and leasing, the very things that you said that it is important 
to invest in in order to make direct care really feasible.
    You have expressed concern throughout your time as 
secretary about the unsustainable trajectory of community care 
spending and the need for VA to rebalance resources between 
direct care and community care. I share this concern.
    I want to know how your budget reflects that. How will 
redirecting billions of dollars from direct care to community 
care and shrinking VA's workforce by 10,000 employees 
accomplish our shared goal of ensuring more veterans receive 
more of the care at VA facilities rather than in the community?
    Mr. McDonough. Yes, that is a fair question. Thank you for 
it. Just on that 10,000 Full-time Equivalent (FTE) reduction, 
that is not at the beginning of the Fiscal Year 2025. That will 
be at the end of Fiscal Year 2025. That is what is envisioned 
in the budget.
    This reflects the fact that not only did we have an 
historically strong hiring year last year, but retention is 
highest it is been in a long time. That is a reflection, again, 
of the investments that you gave us in the PACT Act and I thank 
you all again one more time for that.
    CSI's special salary--so critical skills incentives, 
special salary rates, retention bonuses are paying very well 
because retention is up. Quit rates are down. The fact of the 
transfer of 7-plus billion from the direct care into the 
community care account is a reflection of what we have seen in 
the course of the last 18 months, which is a robust uptake of 
care in the community. Prudence dictates that we be ready for 
that. That is why we asked for that, that transfer.
    Nevertheless, as I have said in my opening remarks, we want 
to make sure that partly because of the fundamental 
unworkability--for example, if you take Veterans Integrated 
Service Network (VISN) 7, which is South Carolina, Georgia, 
Alabama, fully 70 percent of vets in care in that system are 
drivetime-eligible in the first instance, meaning they qualify 
referral to the community by virtue of drivetime alone, even 
though there is no private--there are even fewer private 
providers available to them. When we refer them into the 
community they are going to travel just as far to get the care 
in the community.
    In light of that, we want to make sure that every time we 
have an engagement with a veteran we make clear that the apple 
to the apple. If you have a referral option in the community we 
have a very clear offering to the veteran for how soon and 
where that veteran can get care in the direct care system. We 
think that when given that apples-to-apples comparison the 
veteran will choose, even when eligible for community care, to 
stick with us because veterans understand the positive health 
outcomes as well.
    Mr. Takano. Well, Mr. Secretary, to your point of the 
example about the choices that the--no choices that veterans 
have in many rural areas that being referred into the community 
is not really a solution because of the lack of providers or 
the nonexistence of providers.
    You know, this idea that care in the community as a 
solution to that veteran's challenge. You know, you have made a 
very, kind of, I think, a very clear illustration of where the 
solution really is a nonsolution.
    I am curious. When can we expect to see a strategy, a plan 
on how you are going to rebalance and how you are going to 
provide these veterans with true choices?
    Mr. McDonough. Yes.
    Mr. Takano. I see the response is not more community care 
for those rural veterans. I see that we need to stand up 
providers in those communities maybe in conjunction with other 
Federal payers.
    Mr. McDonough. Yes.
    Mr. Takano. When can we expect to see a strategy on how we 
are going to get our arms around this explosive rise in 
community care?
    Mr. McDonough. You know, I think it is a fair question. I 
think we have pieces of that strategy are being implemented 
now. We have talked at length about those, but nevertheless, I 
think your request for kind of an all-in strategy that lays out 
how we will get this done is a reasonable one and we would look 
forward to having that conversation with you guys over the 
course of the next several months as you are thinking about the 
budget picture for Fiscal Year 2025 and beyond.
    Mr. Takano. Well, thank you. I hope we can see that 
strategy soon, and I appreciate your being here. I yield back.
    Mr. McDonough. Thank you.
    The Chairman. Thank you.
    Representative--General Bergman, you are recognized.
    Mr. Bergman. Good morning, Mr. Secretary.
    Mr. McDonough. Sir.
    Mr. Bergman. Great to see you.
    Mr. McDonough. And you.
    Mr. Bergman. We will get right to it because time is 
finite. Money seems to not be in some cases but we know in the 
end it really is. I am on the Budget Committee this cycle and 
in charge of a task force on improper payments across the 
government.
    You know, as chairman of that oversight task force is 
finding out, I hate to say where all the pots of money are, but 
how the moneys that have been appropriated out there how they 
are being spent. While there has been some progress in recent 
years can you tell me how VA, you know, continue to work to 
lower the improper payments to the greatest extent possible?
    Mr. McDonough. Yes. Thanks very much, General, for the 
question. I obviously share your concern about improper 
payments. I am proud of the progress that we have made at VA on 
this. VA has reported a total reduction of $11.6 billion, which 
is a 79 percent reduction in improper payments over the last 5 
years, and Fiscal Year 2023 is the lowest reported improper 
payments at VA in 9 years.
    Our focus going forward is on improving our testing 
processes to ensure that we are getting to the root cause of 
any remaining improper payments and leveraging every tool 
available. Obviously, that is going to be based on automation 
and strengthening our processes, working with the committee, 
and working with Government Accountability Office (GAO), with 
the Inspector General (IG), and with industry to prevent 
improper payments on the front end.
    I will just give you one example. This is in our education 
programming. One of the routines, it is slightly different from 
the improper payments basket, but one of the places where we 
had been accumulating or veterans had been accumulating 
unknowingly debt is education overpayments because they had 
stopped going to class.
    We have instituted a process of regular text exchange with 
student veterans to make sure that they are still where they 
had planned to be so that they are not incurring debt 
accidentally. That is the kind of testing and automation that 
we want to make sure that we are making progress on.
    Mr. Bergman. Okay, thank you. Different subject----
    Mr. McDonough. Yes.
    Mr. Bergman [continuing]. psychedelics, as you--I am the 
co-chair of the Psychedelic-Assisted Therapies Caucus----
    Mr. McDonough. Yes.
    Mr. Bergman [continuing]. along with Lou Correa from 
California. I was happy to see the VA issue a request for 
applications for studies into 3,4-Methylenedioxymethamphetamine 
(MDMA)-assisted therapy to treat Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder 
(PTSD) in veterans, and I am glad the budget listed these 
treatments as priorities.
    However, given the reduced funding for research and reduced 
healthcare workforce under the budget, how will VA prioritize 
research into psychedelic-assisted therapies and the most 
critically probably, the training of the therapists in these 
new regimens to administer the treatment so that veterans can 
actually, you know, get their results and, you know, as U.S. 
Food and Drug Administration (FDA) approval moves forward?
    Mr. McDonough. Yes. Well, thanks very much for the question 
and thank you for your support of this new tool. Partly by 
listing it the way we do in the budget and mindful of what 
appears to be fairly rapid progress from FDA, although it is 
obviously difficult to see inside FDA, but also because of the 
great hope that we hear from many veterans including here in 
Congress about these treatments, we feel duty-bound to 
prioritize this so that we are ready when FDA gives a green 
light so that vets do not rush into this without the support of 
VA because there is going to be risk if there is not supportive 
of VA. The funding levels that you talked about, the staffing 
levels will not impact our prioritization of this.
    Last point I will make, Mr. Bergman, is I do, however, 
anticipate debate about this up here just judging by the 
reaction to our budget proposal. One thing that I think I just 
want to dogear is I anticipate that over the course of the next 
several months as you all work through and the appropriators 
work through our budget I would anticipate seeing some back and 
forth, maybe even some effort to limit our ability to invest in 
these new tools in the course of this this budget cycle.
    I just--I put that out there something that we should make 
sure that we are working together on. Yes.
    Mr. Bergman. Thank you. I see my time is running short, but 
I just wanted to say if you remember a couple of years ago 
before the football game we had our picture taken with Brittany 
Elliott?
    Mr. McDonough. I do. How could I forget?
    Mr. Bergman. Yes, with the exoskeleton, and it has been 
moving forward. I guess there is more money into it and I would 
guess I would implore you and every--the VA has lagged on 
getting these devices that are proven to the veterans who need 
them. With that I yield back.
    Mr. McDonough. I will just say I do not want to drag this 
out, Chairman, I just want to say I met last week with an 
amazing soldier, a triple amputee from his service in 
Afghanistan. I first met him at Walter Reed many years ago. I 
used to work in different roles in the U.S. Government.
    His experience in both managing his prosthetics but also 
the support that he has gotten, for example, adaptive 
technologies for driving, left me with the impression that 
there is work for us to do across the board on this. We are 
instituting a journey map, a review of the veteran experience 
on this. We will make sure that we include Brittany in that and 
we will make sure that we are doing right by these brave men 
and women.
    The Chairman. Representative Brownley.
    Ms. Brownley. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    Thank you, Mr. Secretary, for being here. Thank you for 
highlighting vet centers and the trauma that too many of our 
women veterans experience in their service to our country. Vet 
centers are such an important footprint within the VA 
infrastructure, so I really appreciate you mentioning both of 
those.
    I have a couple of questions and if you could be as brief 
as possible----
    Mr. McDonough. Sure.
    Ms. Brownley [continuing]. because I would like to get them 
all in.
    Mr. McDonough. Yes.
    Ms. Brownley. The first is on childcare and I noticed that 
the budget requests $18.6 million for childcare. Can you give 
me some idea of the progress that you are making to ensure that 
every VA Medical Center has access to childcare options as was 
promised in the Deborah Sampson bill?
    Mr. McDonough. Yes. Well, thank you very much. We are 
obviously--we are taking this very seriously. Obviously, the 
pandemic challenged us in that regard, but we see two paths to 
make this happen. One is direct to veteran reimbursement for 
the care that that veteran invests to facilitate his or her 
appointment. The second is making sure that there is--the 
second prong is making sure that there are sites on campus.
    We think the two sites closest ready to go are Fresno and 
Shreveport. There are two questions here is how quickly can we 
get the regulatory process done? The appropriators have warned 
us about that being slow to an order places on campus to open 
up, so we are looking now at whether there is some regulatory 
guidance meaning something more quick we can do to get those 
sites stood up to partner along with places like Seattle where 
we have deployed other pilots.
    Our promise in the Deborah Sampson Act I think is by Fiscal 
Year 2026. We will keep pushing on this very aggressively. I 
cannot make a definitive promise that we will make Fiscal Year 
2026 at every VA facility, but there will be good progress on 
this one.
    Ms. Brownley. Thank you. We should also try, you know, try 
to put at least one to test it in a big, urban, I think in a 
big, urban center in a medical center.
    Mr. McDonough. Fair enough.
    Ms. Brownley. Yes. In terms of VA spending on our women 
veterans, it seems to me that it is difficult really to 
determine whether the budget allocated for gender-specific care 
is proportional to the growing rate of utilization of women and 
other gender-specific care. Do you have the data to compare 
these metrics over a 5-year period, over a 10-year period?
    Mr. McDonough. You know, what I can tell you is that we 
have doubled the funding in the last 10 years, but I cannot--
let me take that and then give you that and maybe lay that 
against the demographic or actuarial data to show you how we 
are making the investments.
    We do use the model, what we call the middleman model, to 
inform our decisions on gender-specific care and to inform our 
decisions on the office of woman's health which oversees the 
WISE grants, which is also the basis by which we hire gender-
specific providers and deploy gender-specific technology like 
mammography.
    I think that is a fair question. Let us get that to you in 
writing.
    Ms. Brownley. That would be great because it is really hard 
without the data to really understand if we are, you know, the 
budgets that are being proposed are adequate enough based--you 
know, we need that proportionality.
    Mr. McDonough. I think that is a fair question.
    Ms. Brownley. Great. Great, great, great.
    Mr. McDonough. That is a good question.
    Ms. Brownley. I also notice that, you know, in the budget 
that you are seeking a 20 percent increase in the caregiver 
support program and also I think for long-term support services 
you are asking for $17.9 million, which I think is about an 
$800 million increase. I guess my question is if we were to 
pass and put into law the Elizabeth Dole bill would you 
eventually see the cost of those two programs diminish over 
time?
    Mr. McDonough. That is a good question. In the interest of 
time let me just say two things. One, let me take that and get 
that back to you in writing because I had not considered that, 
but two, the investments that are in there are a reflection of 
what we anticipate of turning back on the expanded caregiver 
program, which we will do over the course of this fiscal year--
sorry, next Fiscal Year into 2025.
    Let me make sure that I understand specifically the impact 
of your bill on the long-term cost of that program and I will 
get that back to you.
    Ms. Brownley. Thank you very much, and I yield back.
    The Chairman. Representative Rosendale.
    Mr. Rosendale. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
    Good morning, Secretary.
    Mr. McDonough. Good morning.
    Mr. Rosendale. Always good to see you again.
    Mr. McDonough. And you. And you.
    Mr. Rosendale. Let us start off, thank you very much for 
your help in Montana. We are making a lot of progress to 
improving the healthcare delivery for the veterans there, and I 
am looking forward to having a permanent director, which I 
understand is very soon----
    Mr. McDonough. Yes, in the works.
    Mr. Rosendale [continuing]. to make sure that we get Fort 
Harrison straight.
    Secretary, in January an opinion article in The Hill was 
written by three VA psychologists with over 40 years of 
clinical experience and it was titled, ``The VA is abandoning 
women veterans' rights for gender identity'.'' The article 
pointed out that, ``Single sex spaces within the VA, those 
ensuring bodily privacy such as bathrooms, exam rooms, and 
medical exam areas can now be accessed by males who self-
identify as women.''
    Now, we have just made an incredible investment in the VA 
facilities across the Nation because of the growing population 
of females within the veterans' community and so I really do 
not understand so that we were making all this investment to 
try and make them feel comfortable, to make them feel more 
welcomed into the veterans' facilities why we would now be 
opening these exact same facilities to males who are 
identifying as women?
    Are you aware of a letter that I wrote about this topic 
with Representative Crane back on February the 12th?
    Mr. McDonough. I am aware of your letter. I would have to 
refresh my memory if I have responded to you yet, but I know 
that we are working that. I also know that when I saw the 
report in the newspaper I also reached out to VHA to make sure 
that they were talking to our clinicians across the system.
    You know, our commitment to all of our vets is that they 
get care in a safe environment, that they feel safe, and I have 
every expectation. In fact, it is my conviction that we ensure 
that for veterans.
    Mr. Rosendale. We are not just talking now about the 
veterans and their level of comfort to make sure that our 
female veterans can come into these facilities and feel 
inviting, okay, and feel safe about it, but the article was 
published. One of the psychologists' direct reports delivered a 
memorandum removing her from her role as a psychologist. A 
psychologist was pulled away from her patients for 
approximately 1 week after being reinstated. There is no 
question that this resulted in disruption of care for her 
patients.
    One of the other psychologists who wrote the article was 
kicked out of the VA chat and was previously prevented from 
supervising students for his opposition to Diversity, Equity, 
and Inclusion (DEI) initiatives.
    You said at a press conference when asked about the 
article, ``We do not require our employees to choose between 
their conscience and their career.''
    Mr. McDonough. We do not.
    Mr. Rosendale. That is the case 365-24-7. That is a noble 
goal. However, these employees did speak their conscience and 
they were punished. There seems to be a little bit of a 
disconnect between the words and what has happened to these 
employees. Are you aware of the retribution that these 
employees have faced?
    Mr. McDonough. What I understand is that it is standard VA 
practice that when, you know, there is a dust-up around a 
provider that the local leadership would take a look at what 
the dust-up is about and then they would make some decisions 
about. That is, as I understand of what happened in this case, 
as your question suggested, the veteran--sorry--the provider 
went back to patient care within a week. You said there is no 
question that had an impact on the veterans' care. I actually 
have not seen any sense that there is a question whether it 
impacted veterans' care, meaning I have seen no evidence that 
it did impact veterans' care.
    Those kinds of procedures which are laid out in VHA 
practice guidebooks across the system are the kinds of steps 
that I would think a responsive, high reliability organization 
would take.
    Mr. Rosendale. The employees should not, in your words, 
``be subject to retribution for speaking their conscience.''
    Mr. McDonough. I do not think this is retribution, 
Congressman. Like, again, this is all derivative. I am learning 
this partly to make sure that I can respond to you and Mr. 
Crane. These are decisions--these are potential processes laid 
out in VHA guidebooks about how to make sure that we are 
managing the provision of care effectively across the system. I 
do not think this is retribution.
    There was questions about the dust-up. It sounds to me like 
the local leadership looked into it and within a week the 
person was back on the job.
    As to the employee-controlled chat group, you know, I mean, 
I am not going to--I do not think it is appropriate for me to 
start managing who is members and who is not members of a chat 
group. You know, I think those are collegial decisions that our 
professionals can----
    Mr. Rosendale. Well, I will take you at your word because--
--
    Mr. McDonough. Yes.
    Mr. Rosendale [continuing]. we always have been able to 
rely on each other and it has always been also my experience 
that when you are made aware of these things----
    Mr. McDonough. Yes.
    Mr. Rosendale [continuing]. that you have looked into them 
and made sure that they were made straight.
    The last comment that I would just like to make is that 
while Ranking Member Takano embraces the expansion of the VA, 
what our job here is to make sure that the veterans get the 
care that they have earned, that they deserve, when they want 
it where they want it, not to protect the VA. It is not to 
protect the VA. It is to make sure that the veterans get the 
care that they have earned and that they deserve when they want 
it where they want it.
    I assure you when you are dealing in urban areas it is a 
lot easier for the veterans to slip into a VA facility than it 
is in Montana where we have 100,000 veterans that are dispersed 
across 145,000 square miles and they are heavily dependent on 
the community care in order to make sure that they are being 
taken care of.
    Thank you very much. I appreciate----
    Mr. McDonough. Thank you.
    Mr. Rosendale [continuing]. I appreciate all your work.
    Mr. McDonough. Thank you and I appreciate your always being 
available to me and, you know, look, I think Montana is 
emblematic of the challenge that we face in this country, which 
is access in rural settings. I have spent time in many of your 
districts asking these same questions.
    I suggest that among organizations making investments in 
rural settings few rival the amount of dollars that VA itself 
is investing in rural settings, and I think that is important. 
Part of that is based on our belief that rural veterans deserve 
access to the highest quality care, too, right?
    This is also why we are working with DOD and even now with 
U.S. Department of Agriculture to make sure that we have high 
quality care sites available to veterans across 140,000 miles--
--
    Mr. Rosendale. 145,000 square miles.
    Mr. McDonough [continuing]. 145,000, yes. It is a little 
bigger than Minnesota but not that much.
    Mr. Rosendale. Yes. Thank you. I yield back, Mr. Chair, 
thank you.
    The Chairman. Representative Levin.
    Mr. Levin. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    Mr. Secretary, great to see you. Thank you for your 
continued hard work----
    Mr. McDonough. Thank you.
    Mr. Levin [continuing]. on behalf of our veterans and your 
team as well. We appreciate you and thanks for visiting so many 
of our districts.
    Mr. McDonough. You are right to thank them. They do all the 
work, not me.
    Mr. Levin. Absolutely. Absolutely. Thank you for always 
being available visiting so many of our districts. You are 
always welcome----
    Mr. McDonough. Thank you.
    Mr. Levin [continuing]. in our district. I wanted to get 
through a few questions. First, I want to bring something up 
that I have discussed in our budget hearings for the past 2 
years and that is the veteran and spouse transitional 
assistance grant program. I was proud to authorize the program 
as part of Isakson and Roe to support local organizations that 
provide coordinated transition assistance services, such as 
resume assistance, interview training, and job recruitment 
training to veterans and their spouses.
    VA issued a proposed rule for implementation of this 
program in July 2023 and last month Congress appropriated $5 
million to begin awarding grants. Now that VA has the funding 
in hand when do you expect to open the grant application?
    Mr. McDonough. Well, we are working through the comments 
that we have received now, and so I have to be careful about 
that, but we are working through those comments and we will 
publish a final rule when we are done there. Then we will be in 
a position to begin administering the grants, you know, 
pursuant to well-established, publicly commented on rules so 
that everybody gets a fair shot at it.
    Mr. Levin. Thank you for that. VA estimated that full 
program implementation would cost $26.3 million per year, but 
the Fiscal Year 2025 budget request maintains level funding for 
$5 million and with the program only authorized for 5 years VA 
has limited time to scale it up, make the case for long-term 
authorization.
    I have the same question for you that I did last year, 
hoping for a clear answer. When does VA plan to fully fund the 
program?
    Mr. McDonough. When we can prove that we have the right 
programmatic setup to ensure that it is successful. I think we 
want to, you know, build to that through experience and through 
proven performance rather than--which is something that we do 
all too often, buy the dream and then find out that we cannot 
execute the full dream. We end up complicating outcomes for 
veterans and not being the best stewards of taxpayers' dollars 
along the way. We will build to it. I cannot give you a firm 
number on that but this is why it is so important that we get--
--
    Mr. Levin. Along those lines, Mr. Secretary, will you 
commit to moving as expeditiously as you can----
    Mr. McDonough. You have that. You have that----
    Mr. Levin [continuing]. so that I do not have to ask the 
same question next year?
    Mr. McDonough. Yes.
    Mr. Levin. Excellent, thank you. Wanted to move on to a 
local issue for me, the Jennifer Moreno VA Medical Center in 
San Diego, who has been trying to purchase land from the 
University of California, San Diego since Fiscal Year 2020. VA 
has not included this request and its short-term budget year 
requests.
    When VA facilities have to wait years for Congress and VA 
to allocate funding for a land acquisition project and the cost 
of land continues to increase, we end up unnecessarily wasting 
taxpayer money. In both last year and this year's budget 
request you asked for Congress to pass legislation allowing VA 
to allocate funding for land acquisition projects without 
specific congressional authorization.
    The final Fiscal Year 2024 appropriations bill included 
language that removed the requirement for VA to get specific 
authorization from Congress on VHA land acquisition projects, 
but it did not amend the underlying statute or allocate any 
funding for VHA land acquisition projects.
    Do you still need authorizing language in a separate 
appropriations line item to make the VHA land acquisition line 
item a reality?
    Mr. McDonough. We do.
    Mr. Levin. I look forward to working with my colleagues on 
this committee to get the authorization enacted into law so we 
can get the resources to VA facilities as quickly as we can.
    Last, Mr. Secretary, I want to thank you for your steadfast 
commitment to ending veteran homelessness. Your budget includes 
$3.21 billion for this purpose with increases for most 
programs, except supportive services for veteran families, 
SSVF, which would receive a decrease. SSVF, I believe, is the 
heart of VA's homelessness prevention efforts and has grown in 
recent years to fill critical needs, but can you discuss the 
rationale behind the funding decrease for SSVF?
    Yes. You know, this year's funding level really draws on 
what we learned last year which is that we have an increase in 
unsheltered homelessness. This is why grant per diem is really 
so important, but also why we are investing as much as we are 
investing in prevention this year.
    We are trying to get ahead of the challenge by keeping more 
veterans in their homes, hence the things like the VASP 
program, but also trying to make sure that because we saw last 
year for the first time in a number of years, I think 3 years, 
an increase in 7 percent of veteran homelessness, which 
included unsheltered veteran homelessness.
    That is what is reflected in the budget.
    Mr. Levin. I am out of time. Again, I want to say thank you 
for the hard work that you and your team----
    Mr. McDonough. Thank you.
    Mr. Levin [continuing]. are doing and I look forward to 
further discussions soon. I yield back.
    The Chairman. Representative Van Orden.
    Mr. Van Orden. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    Mr. Secretary, April 21, 2023, the Veterans Administration 
put something on their website and I want to ask you if these 
things became true. With our budget we are discussing that 
Veterans Administration said that there would be 30 million 
fewer veteran outpatient visits that take place?
    Mr. McDonough. No. We had a net increase.
    Mr. Van Orden. That we undermined access to telehealth. Did 
that take place?
    Mr. McDonough. No.
    Mr. Van Orden. Or wait times worsen for benefits because 
you are going to be forced to eliminate 6,000 staff members?
    Mr. McDonough. Again, we gained----
    Mr. Van Orden. An estimated 134,000 claims?
    Mr. McDonough. We are resolving claims 17 days faster this 
year than last year.
    Mr. Van Orden. Were you prevented from construction of VA 
healthcare facilities that veterans needed?
    Mr. McDonough. No.
    Mr. Van Orden. No. Did you fail to honor the memories of 
all our veterans by eliminating approximately 500 staff that 
take care of our cemeteries?
    Mr. McDonough. I did not. We did not.
    Mr. Van Orden. It did not happen? Okay. Did you cut housing 
for veterans? I do not think you did because we just talked 
about that. Did food security increase for veterans--
insecurity?
    Mr. McDonough. No, it did not.
    Mr. Van Orden. It did not. Okay. Deprive veterans of mental 
health substance use healthcare services, did that happen? That 
did not happen either, did it? Okay. Did you eliminate job 
training? Did not do that either.
    When the ranking member of this committee says that the VA 
will end as we know it if Donald Trump is elected, do you think 
that that is true?
    Mr. McDonough. You know, I am not going to get----
    Mr. Van Orden. I do not like politicizing this either, sir, 
but I am telling you I am not standing for this stuff. There 
are article after article after article about how Donald Trump 
increased the ability for veterans to get care. This stuff that 
you put on your website and that these people echoed on the 
other side of this chamber, you just said on the record did not 
take place.
    We are not going to fearmonger here with our veterans. I 
know you do not do it. You did it here. We talked about this. 
You came to our office. There is absolutely no place for this 
in this committee at all.
    I believe that Mr. Takano should publicly apologize for 
this. Donald Trump will not be destroying the Veterans 
Administration as we know it when he is elected as President. 
Okay. I did not plan on doing that, but I am not going to stand 
by and listen to this political garbage in this committee at 
all.
    Okay. VASP, sir, you said in your letter you sent it over 
here last night about 8 that you think that the VASP thing is 
going to turn out well for veterans. Can you envision a world 
where the Veterans Administration is going to force veterans to 
leave their homes? Will the Veterans Administration foreclose 
on a veteran and make them homeless?
    Mr. McDonough. No.
    Mr. Van Orden. Okay. Here is the problem, sir. If the 
Veterans Administration assumes these loans, puts them on their 
books, first of all, the amount of work that has been done on 
this is wholly inadequate even from the staffing amount of 
folks that you think you are going to have to hire to 
administer about $15 billion worth of loans. Veterans may or 
may not be able to pay these loans back and they are going to 
be on the VA books.
    You just told me that you are not going to evict a veteran 
from a home which means that the Veterans Administration is 
going to be paying the mortgage of a home for a veteran which 
means the government of the United States of America is going 
to essentially make these public buildings because we are 
paying for it. You are going to have a private citizen living 
in a public building. They tried that before in the Soviet 
Union and it did not work.
    The issue that we have here--no one on this committee, Mr. 
Levin is my ranking member who I respect tremendously, cares 
about veterans homelessness as do I. This is not the way to do 
this.
    The Veterans Administration has the potential to destroy 
the second best thing the Veterans Administration has ever 
done. The first thing is the GI Bill that fundamentally created 
the middle class. The second one is the veterans home loan 
guarantee. By you guys doing this in a very unthoughtful manner 
I am afraid that you are going to wreck that program and we 
cannot have that.
    That is how I bought my home. I want our young veterans to 
be able to buy homes with that program and because there has 
been a nearly complete lack of thought put into this and there 
has been, go through it in a different form, I do not want to 
extend this conversation. I believe that you are going to do 
much more harm than good and it is unintentional.
    I would like, again, to follow-up. We had a meeting with 
the chairman and your undersecretary on this but we have got to 
get down to brass tacks on this because I am unwilling to be 
the chairman of the subcommittee that is responsible for 
destroying the veteran home loan guarantee.
    Thank you for your time, sir.
    Mr. McDonough. Thank you.
    Mr. Van Orden. Yes. It is good to see you.
    Mr. McDonough. And you.
    Mr. Van Orden. With that, I yield back, Mr. Chairman.
    The Chairman. Representative Pappas.
    Mr. Pappas. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    Mr. Secretary, good morning----
    Mr. McDonough. Good morning.
    Mr. Pappas [continuing]. and I appreciate your thoughts 
here today, particularly as they pertain to community care and 
that is what I intended to ask about. I do not want to be 
repetitive here, but this is an issue that we think a lot about 
in New Hampshire.
    We know that we have got a lot of rural communities that 
are underserved. Community care clearly has helped close 
important gaps but we also want to make sure that it does not 
supplant VA healthcare, which is a concern that I hear directly 
from our medical center leadership.
    They have made great strides at improving services at the 
Manchester VA, recently opening a wellness center. They have 
got a women's health clinic that is under construction, but 
they are expressing concerns that they could be unable to 
further expand services at the facility and make it an 
attractive option for veterans if we are going to continue to 
see the community care budget increase. This is in a State 
where everyone is automatically eligible for community care.
    Can you talk about that balance as it pertains to the 
Manchester VA and how we can work with leadership there to make 
sure they can continue to bolster services and show veterans 
the advantage that they provide in terms of seeking care within 
that facility?
    Mr. McDonough. Yes. Well, I thank you very much for that 
question and I appreciate the conversations we have had about 
this. I think a challenge for us as a country is to ensure that 
there is greater access in rural communities to healthcare, and 
this is a major challenge in every one of your states, a 
particular challenge in yours. It is a particular challenge for 
VA because veterans are more likely than non-veterans to come 
from rural communities and to return to rural communities.
    The challenge for us is making sure that we can get that 
care closer to veterans and that we do not think that making a 
referral into the community is the end of our relationship with 
a veteran because, (a), we have to coordinate that care, make 
sure that it is fit into all the other care that the veteran is 
getting, but we also have to make sure that we are not just 
referring the vet into the community and then he ends up 
driving 3 hours to see somebody in the private sector anyway 
when they might be able to go a much shorter distance to come 
to a VA facility, even if that VA facility is outside the 30-or 
60-minute drivetime window.
    That is what we are trying to do. We are also trying to 
make and take advantage of things like VA Health Connect. All 
of us have access. Well, I will just say myself, I have access 
to Blue Cross/Blue Shield. I can get a nurse practitioner on 
the phone to triage concern about my kids or my family or 
myself. We now through VA Health Connect have concluded 45 
million calls last year. These would not be included in 
clinical encounters we had talked about earlier. That gets a 
vet in touch with a nurse practitioner to resolve that 
veteran's question obviating the need to travel.
    That is the kind of use of telehealth, the kind of use of 
triage available options that we are trying to test to ensure 
that we do not boil this down to just say, hey, you have 
qualified for travel time. Here is your referral over. You go 
take care of this.
    Mr. Pappas. Sure, and I am wondering if you can address 
concerns that some of the VSOs have in their testimony about 
the infrastructure spend in Fiscal Year 2025? The request is 33 
percent lower than last year.
    Some concerns also around State home construction grant 
programs funding, VA requested $30 million less than Fiscal 
Year 2024 levels, which we know is woefully short of where we 
need to be to fund priority projects, especially as we think 
about the number of veterans that are in long-term care in 
these facilities.
    Can you talk about specifically the State home construction 
grant program and----
    Mr. McDonough. Right.
    Mr. Pappas [continuing]. that that level that you 
requested?
    Yes. Look, as I said in my opening, in the opening set of 
questions, the caps did force difficult decisions on the 
Federal Government. I think that is, well, it is as it is.
    This is one of those cases where we made that decision. We 
are examining different funding streams, as I said, cooperation 
with other Federal agencies. Last year we attempted to try to 
get mandatory funding for this to make sure that we can invest 
at the levels and rates we need to.
    When your average facility in terms of hospitals, I do not 
have to remind you of this, is 62 years old, the major 
construction account is not going to be made whole each year 
at, you know, $2 billion. We have to figure out a different way 
to do that.
    We are testing options. I really appreciate the VSOs 
pushing on this because we have to figure out how we get around 
a difficult set of caps, especially when we have the dynamic on 
costs that we have been talking about throughout the course of 
the year.
    Mr. Pappas. Yes. Thank you for your comments there. It is a 
huge issue. We have got a significant backlog. We have got to 
address it.
    Mr. McDonough. Thank you.
    Mr. Pappas. I yield back.
    The Chairman. Representative Luttrell.
    Mr. Luttrell. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    Mr. McDonough. Sir.
    Mr. Luttrell. Good to see you as always, sir.
    Mr. McDonough. And you.
    Mr. Luttrell. Thank you for all the hard work and please 
pass the word to all the undersecretaries and everybody that 
comes in front of the Disability Assistance Subcommittee. I am 
not always easy on them, but they are doing an amazing job.
    I heard you state the previous year's numbers and the 
growth rate in employees and the successes that we have or are 
having in the VA, which I am over the moon about, but there is 
one number that grew last year that you and I spoke about that 
should not be growing. That is your number one issue from what 
I understand at the VA and that is suicide.
    Mr. McDonough. Yes.
    Mr. Luttrell. That is something we have yet to corral. As a 
neuroscientist studying the brain and emotional behaviors for 
the past 15 years now, I think, I want to solve this problem. 
This should not be a conversation that we are having. You and I 
every time we have a meeting together this is the number one 
topic that we talked about.
    I heard the general speak about the progression of 
alternative medications in space in alternative to the opioid 
problems that we have, the Selective Serotonin Reuptake 
Inhibitors (SSRI)----
    Mr. McDonough. Yes, sir.
    Mr. Luttrell [continuing]. and the existing modalities that 
we are utilizing for these problem sets. That, you know, if you 
roll the clock back a decade the numbers are--they are 
sustained. We are not doing what we need to be doing.
    Mr. McDonough. Right.
    Mr. Luttrell. We need to fix that problem. It saddens, it 
sickens me to sit here in the House of Representatives and say 
that, hey, we have this problem. We have to fix it, but we say 
this every year.
    Mr. McDonough. Every year.
    Mr. Luttrell. I want the VA to be the leading edge of the 
sword. You have that capability. If there is legislation that 
is not in place that allows the VA to be where all the other 
institutes of higher learning and research come running to the 
VA to say you are leading the way how can we help you or can we 
learn from you, that is what I want to see.
    That transcends the research space down into our veteran 
community where we do not have this problem set. With the 
budget line, I mean, I can throw numbers at this all day long. 
What are we going to do? How are we going to fix this problem?
    I know you cannot answer that question because it exists. 
It is such a wide net that we have to cast, but no more. I 
mean, what was it, over 6,000 deaths last year? What are we 
doing? How are we going to fix this problem, sir? I mean, with 
this budget line are we moving money in the proper direction to 
centrally focus on this issue?
    Mr. McDonough. Yes. Well, I think that we have got to, as 
you are suggesting, I think we have got to get the solutions 
closer to the veterans' communities and closer to the veteran. 
I think what you see in this budget is enhanced efforts at 
outreach to try to get veterans into our care, enhanced 
investments in the people and organizations who know their vets 
best.
    You know----
    Mr. Luttrell. If it is community care or primary direct 
primary care at the VA that is----
    Mr. McDonough. That but also investing in local 
organizations who know vets.
    Mr. Luttrell. Yes, absolutely.
    Mr. McDonough. So----
    Mr. Luttrell. We have to be, and I hate to say this, sir, 
because I would never put myself in your position, but we have 
to be hyperaggressive on this. I mean in an uncomfortable 
momentum----
    Mr. McDonough. Yes. No, look I mean, we have got to be, 
like, hyperaggressive about it because we have to act like a 
life depends on it because it turns out more than 6,000 do 
depend on it.
    This is the whole idea is to get the care, the awareness, 
the investments closer to the veteran, closer to the people who 
know the veterans most to ensure that when a veteran stops 
showing up, when a veteran is isolated there is support, (a), 
people know that there is support for people who know that to 
do something about it.
    Then there is availability of mental health treatment so 
that when the veteran reaches a moment when he will come out of 
isolation and get the care that he does not have to wait to get 
the care, that he gets the care. You know, we are trying to 
push that as close to the veteran as we can.
    Mr. Luttrell. I would like to see the expansiveness of 
this, of not only this dollar amount but the research mechanism 
inside the VA----
    Mr. McDonough. Yes.
    Mr. Luttrell [continuing]. go out into deeper waters, deep 
brain stimulations. We are seeing research that says, hey, that 
addresses addiction and emotional instability.
    Mr. McDonough. Yes.
    Mr. Luttrell. You know? I am going to close with my last 20 
seconds. I do not know if I heard you correctly but did you say 
there is going to be problems on this side as far as moving 
appropriations to research with the psychedelic medications?
    Mr. McDonough. I am just reading back to you the mem cons 
that I got out of our briefing about our budget. I think we 
were surprised that we got a little pushback. I cannot remember 
from whom we got that pressure----
    Mr. Luttrell. I can assure you I will be digging into that 
because not only just the veterans in this community that you 
see now, but there is a high majority of the congressional 
Members that they do not want this problem to exist any longer. 
I think with the research and the experiences that the veterans 
have had to share with the body I think we can put that----
    Mr. McDonough. You have had----
    Mr. Luttrell [continuing]. hopefully put that to bed.
    Mr. McDonough. You have made the sale. You have underscored 
to me the impact of this, and the more I scratch at it, as I 
told you, I am skeptical.
    Mr. Luttrell. Yes, sir. I understand.
    Mr. McDonough. The more I scratch at it the more--and the 
more I hear from our providers the more determined we are to 
make sure that we do the right thing.
    Mr. Luttrell. Thank you, Mr. Secretary. I appreciate it.
    Mr. Chairman, I yield back.
    The Chairman. Representative Cherfilus-McCormick.
    Ms. Cherfilus-McCormick. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
    Mr. Secretary, the Fiscal Year 2025 request indicates a 44 
percent cut to the IT modernization account. The budget seems 
to be focused on maintaining legacy systems over modernizing 
them. There are several modernization efforts already in 
progress. How do you intend to fund those programs under this 
budget?
    Mr. McDonough. Yes. This is, you know, among the challenges 
in the budget. This is one. As I said, the caps and the fact 
that we are no longer operating in the pandemic era of very, 
very generous appropriations which, again, I thank everyone on 
the committee, Republicans and Democrats for those investments.
    This is a maintenance budget. I will just be very candid 
with you. As we briefed it out we have made that clear to your 
teams as well. That is true in IT.
    We have got to make sure that we are maintaining the 
progress we have made. We do have incremental funding so that 
we can maintain momentum on modernization projects like 
Financial Management Business Transformation (FMBT), for 
example. Obviously, we will stay on top of those but, you know, 
the budget does force some tough choices and IT is one of those 
places.
    Ms. Cherfilus-McCormick. You said it is a maintenance 
budget but right now when we look at the Electronic Health 
Record Modernization (EHRM) budget, which was cut in half, I 
understand that it is related to the program's current status 
under reset. However, the dramatic budget cut in this program 
leaves me concern that there are no real plans to move from 
reset to implementation.
    Mr. McDonough. Yes.
    Ms. Cherfilus-McCormick. Do you expect EHRM to resume any 
go-lives in Fiscal Year 2025?
    Mr. McDonough. Yes. Well, here is what I would say. We are 
not staying in reset forever. We are going to get into 
deployment one, two. Why? This is really, really, really 
important and we are committed to making it happen. We need a 
single health record across the VA system, and we need one that 
talks more effectively to DOD.
    The fact is that when we get to the, well, during the 
course of this year as we approach the end of the year I 
anticipate us being in discussions to get out of reset. When we 
get there remember that we have, and this is one of the things 
that the chairman talked about, we have carryover. We have 
prior year funding. It is 3-year funding available to us to 
deploy in the first instance beyond the reset.
    We have existing money that would not that be accounted 
for, prior year appropriated money not accounted for in this 
year's request that is slated and available for us when we exit 
reset.
    Ms. Cherfilus-McCormick. Just for clarification purposes--
--
    Mr. McDonough. Yes.
    Ms. Cherfilus-McCormick [continuing]. do you plan on being 
in reset for the entirety of Fiscal Year 2025 or not?
    Mr. McDonough. We do not.
    Ms. Cherfilus-McCormick. How do you plan on specifically 
funding the go-lives if we are having this----
    Mr. McDonough. With the 3-year funding that is existing 
already. We have that at VA already so we have prior 
authorized--prior appropriated money available to us to deploy 
when we get out of reset.
    Ms. Cherfilus-McCormick. Okay. The budget request also 
indicates a 65 percent cut in the infrastructure readiness 
program that is focused on addressing VA's massive technical 
debt. Given that most of VA's work relies on the department's 
aging IT infrastructure, this is a huge disservice to VA 
employees and veterans. How can we expect to expand access to 
care and benefits for veterans on IT systems and equipment that 
are growing older and more obsolete every day?
    Mr. McDonough. Well, this is why, for example, TEF is so 
important. TEF allows us, and look, we have been very, very 
careful with the TEF. The law that you all passed said any 
incremental funding for the treatment of toxic exposure over 
the Fiscal Year 2021 baseline can be TEF.
    We have been very careful about this. We have briefed your 
teams at length about it. We have methodologies for each of our 
components, including IT, Office of Information and Technology 
(OI&T), and we are going to be in a position to make sure that 
because of that TEF money we can continue to make progress, 
including on important infrastructure improvements like benefit 
delivery.
    Moreover, some of our infrastructure was bought ahead 
during, for example, EHRM deployment. We are getting sites 
deployment ready so we are in a position to continue, as I 
said, maintain momentum, continue momentum, maybe not at the 
level we would have anticipated in a place where I forget who 
said that, I guess General Bergman said that sometimes money 
seems infinite. We get that it is not.
    We think it is prudent to make the decisions that we are 
making, and we think that we have a plan to make that happen.
    Ms. Cherfilus-McCormick. Well, one more thing I wanted to 
ask you because it seems like with all the cuts you are really 
relying on the excess of the supplemental funds that you had 
from TEF and other sources. Now, do you have any concerns that 
you might run short because it seems like in all these cut 
areas that you are planning on supplementing it there? Is there 
enough to supplement the entire budget because we see so much 
extensive cuts?
    Mr. McDonough. Yes. You know, I think I would disagree with 
the characterization of extensive cuts. I think we have been 
trying, you know, as I said, you were very generous to us 
throughout the pandemic. You know, we have been planning 
carefully, carefully planning the use of those funds so those 
carryovers those are incorporated into the budget laid out in 
front of you. We are in a position to use those.
    Am I worried that, you know, we are going to have to, you 
know, for example, the chairman mentioned that there is no 
second bite in the budget. We do not anticipate one but if we 
need one we will come back and talk to you guys about it then.
    Ms. Cherfilus-McCormick. Thank you. I yield back.
    The Chairman. Thank you. It is the chair's intent to 
recognize Representatives Self for his 5 minutes and then we 
will go break and go into recess for the Ambassador's speech. 
Return please as quickly as possible after the speech.
    Representative Self.
    Mr. Self. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    Mr. Secretary, good to see you.
    Mr. McDonough. Sir.
    Mr. Self. I have heard several comments in this hearing 
that community care is more expensive. According to your 
budget, and this was quickly done, you are asking for 52 
million outpatient visits at community care for $37 billion.
    You are also expecting 89 million outpatient visits with 
VHA for $83 billion.
    Now, this indicates that community care is not more 
expensive so we probably ought to refine our figures and our 
comments along those lines. Do you have a sense of the ratio of 
your 10,000 personnel cuts through attrition? What will be the 
ratio of bureaucracy versus frontline providers? Do you have a 
sense?
    Mr. McDonough. I think I could probably get you a more 
detailed sense of that. I think we just did a deep dive with 
your staffs last week, but we have, obviously, prioritized 
hiring frontline providers, frontline workers. I think, 
throughout the course of the pandemic we did, for example, 
because we did make a decision to protect the most vulnerable 
veterans in our care.
    We did make a decision in individual facilities to move 
more care into the community so that requires a different kind 
of hire in those pandemic years 2020, 2021, for example, than 
we would normally be making.
    I would anticipate that in this year of strategic hiring we 
are focusing overwhelmingly in the hires on providers.
    Mr. Self. I would ask you that through your attrition what 
is the ratio of your loss, however you want to structure that, 
because I want to focus----
    Mr. McDonough. We will get you----
    Mr. Self [continuing]. exactly as you just said. We need to 
be focused on our providers.
    Mr. McDonough. Yes.
    Mr. Self. If we take the attrition cuts it needs to be in 
the bureaucracy.
    Now, in the latest the budget that was passed, the one we 
are in now----
    Mr. McDonough. Yes.
    Mr. Self [continuing]. I understand that now it is very 
clear that you are not to report veterans who have a fiduciary 
to the National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS) 
data base. Is that correct and have you changed your policies 
to make sure that does not happen? That we are giving the 
constitutional protections to our veterans simply because they 
have a fiduciary?
    Mr. McDonough. Let me answer that question by what we did 
because I am not sure I understand about changing the policies.
    Mr. Self. Well, in the past you have, because you read the 
law differently than most people, other Federal agencies, that 
if you have a fiduciary for a veteran you would then put them 
in the NICS data base. That was your policy in the past, and I 
think that is forbidden under the latest budget and I want to 
make sure that your policies follow the law.
    Mr. McDonough. Yes. We turned off, or I think it is a 
monthly or bimonthly reporting mechanism, to the Department of 
Justice. We turned that off when Congress enacted the rider on 
the appropriations bill. We are not reporting any fiduciaries, 
any new fiduciaries to the Department of Justice at the moment 
nor, incidentally, since that reporting is now turned off can 
we take any veterans no longer on the fiduciaries who had been 
reported to Justice off.
    The reporting is turned off.
    Mr. Self. Does that apply to your advance budget for 2025, 
I guess, as well?
    Mr. McDonough. It is an appropriations bill rider, so as 
with all appropriations bill riders it will expire at the end 
of the fiscal year.
    Mr. Self. That was my question. I am afraid that is the 
case.
    I also, and I am almost out of time, I would like for you 
to look at the training videos that you are using in VA today. 
They are produced by someone that is associated with Planned 
Parenthood, and I am very concerned that they promote abortion 
as the safest option for pregnant veterans.
    I find that a little oxymoron in aspect, but I would ask--
--
    Mr. McDonough. I would think that that would--I would have 
a hard time believing that is true.
    Mr. Self. Well, absolutely.
    Mr. McDonough. I will find out.
    Mr. Self. I would ask for a report on that because if this 
is true, and apparently it is, I would like to know about it.
    Mr. McDonough. Fair enough.
    Mr. Self. With that, I yield back, Mr. Chairman.
    The Chairman. The gentleman yields back.
    The committee will stand in recess until the end of the 
Ambassador's speech. Hopefully, like I said, everybody can get 
back.
    Mr. Secretary, thank you for staying.
    Mr. McDonough. Yes, of course, of course. Thank you very 
much.
    [Recess.]
    The Chairman. The committee will come back to order. At 
this time we are going to continue with questions. 
Representative Deluzio, you would have 5 minutes to ask your 
questions.
    Mr. Deluzio. Mr. Chairman, thank you.
    Secretary, good to see you. Thanks for your patience as we 
welcomed the Japanese Prime Minister today. I will be blunt. I 
am a little worried about this budget. I think it is driving a 
trend toward privatization that I am alarmed by.
    Since the VA MISSION Act was implemented we have seen fee-
for-service, excuse me, community care go from accounting for a 
relatively limited portion of the VHA's budget intended to help 
improve veterans' access to care when direct care from VA was 
not convenient, was not nearby, did not make sense to now what 
I think is a ballooning program that now accounts for more than 
a third of all spending on veterans' health care with worse 
outcomes in many respects.
    That community care has been siphoning funds from what I 
think is already an underfunded Veterans Health Administration. 
The trends show that that sign or those signs are not going to 
be changing anytime soon.
    Since 2020, the financial obligations for medical community 
care has grown about twice the rate of VA direct care, and yet 
we already know that community care is more expensive, its 
quality on many measures has been worse, patient outcomes in 
many places have been worse, care coordination is worse, 
oversight is more limited. Let us talk as an example about 
emergency room care.
    A study found veterans treated in private Emergency Rooms 
(ER) twice as likely to die in the first 28 days after 
admission that they have been admitted to a VA facility. If 
veterans had an ambulance transport them to the VA emergency 
department their prospect of dying in the subsequent months was 
46 percent lower than if they had gone to a non-VA facility.
    Now, let us talk about opioids. Last September the Office 
of Inspector General (OIG) released a report about the stunning 
lack of oversight of private non-VA providers who prescribe 
opioids to veterans outside the VA. Found that about 80 percent 
of those non-VA providers who prescribed opioids in veterans in 
Fiscal Year 2021 did not complete VA's training module nor 
certify they received and reviewed the guidelines put in place 
under the MISSION Act.
    Their sample of those community providers show that about 
two-thirds did not check the State data bases that are meant to 
monitor against over prescriptions and abuse.
    Stock wait times, we do not have, frankly, wait time data. 
Veterans cannot look up what a wait time will be in community 
care, but based on most of the studies wait times are shorter 
in VA care and getting better. The same is not happening in the 
community.
    Training, VHA does not require the same training it does of 
VA providers or folks in the community and only a small share 
of those private providers complete the training.
    I think we are at a tipping point. I think this 
privatization trend is not fiscally responsible. I do not think 
it is good for veterans.
    Just this week I received notice that the Pittsburgh VA in 
my district effective immediately is implementing a hiring 
freeze and why? The explanation given so they can deal with 
rising costs of fee-for-service community care. I see the 
direct connection and it worries me. I know Pittsburgh VA is 
probably not alone in this.
    I think, Mr. Secretary, this budget is doing much of the 
same to encourage these trends that I worry about. More than 
$20 billion has already been appropriated to fee-for-service 
community care for 2025. Community care has already received 
$9.8 billion from the cost of war toxic exposure fund, as I 
understand it.
    This budget proposes siphoning around $7.3 billion from VA 
direct care to fee-for-service community care. Do I have the 
basic numbers right, Mr. Secretary?
    Mr. McDonough. You do.
    Mr. Deluzio. Okay.
    Mr. McDonough. Yes, you do.
    Mr. Deluzio. I know you agree we need to curb the spending 
issue here. One way I think VA could easily do that would be to 
update access standards so that telehealth counts. In other 
words, VA today I cannot point to the availability of a 
telehealth appointment when thinking about whether someone you 
refer to the community and yet that same veteran might find 
themselves receiving a telehealth appointment.
    My question, Mr. Secretary, do you plan to change those 
access standards, and if so, what is that timeline looking 
like? I know we have talked before about this.
    Mr. McDonough. Yes. Mr. Deluzio, thank you very much. We 
are looking at the access standards. We are looking expressly 
at the telehealth access standard. We have talked to your teams 
about this, House and Senate.
    We do think that it is not helpful to veterans to give them 
a referral and then they just end up seeing a doctor in 
telehealth outside the VA system, so we think that does not 
make a lot of sense. We are looking at that. I cannot give you 
a specific timeline on that regulation but we are working it.
    Then we have two other parts of our--two other additions to 
our strategy over and above what I talked about before, which 
is the apple-to-apple offer of in-house care every time a 
veteran is referred out. We have dramatically increased access 
through our access sprints. We saw 25,000 new patients, more 
new patients in VA clinics October to February. That is an 11 
percent increase.
    We saw that increase in 81 percent of our facilities, 
including Pittsburgh. That means 14 percent fewer veterans had 
to wait to get into the community. They got directly into VA. 
We did that through offering evening clinics, weekend clinics, 
additional access to telehealth. We are going to continue to do 
that.
    All of that requires us to maintain strategic hiring. That 
is why we had the good hiring year we had last year and that is 
why the strategic hiring will continue.
    Last, in your visit, I think Pittsburgh and the rest of 
that system does a very good job at using telehealth 
authorities across the State to get access to things like tele-
oncology. Let me just say one thing about tele-emergency care. 
We have now rolled this out in 25,000 individual instances 
across VA have. Far this year 15,000, 10,000 cases last year.
    The median case has us meet the veteran's medical needs 
within 30 minutes never leaving his home, meaning he does not 
have to drive, he does not have to risk infection, he does not 
have risk hassles of going to an emergency department, a VA 
emergency department or a private sector emergency department.
    Things like that, VA Health Connect, tele-emergency care, 
and enhanced access, as we have just demonstrated in the last 5 
months of the access sprints, means that we will make sure that 
a veteran has timely access to the best available care, namely 
the VA system, whenever and with clear understanding of what 
those parameters for each offering will be.
    Mr. Deluzio. Mr. Secretary, thank you.
    Mr. Chairman, I thank you for indulging on the time. I 
appreciate the apples-to-apples work. I think it is very 
important, Mr. Secretary.
    Mr. McDonough. Thank you.
    The Chairman. Dr. Miller-Meeks.
    Ms. Miller-Meeks. Well, thank you very much. It is 
wonderful to see you again, Secretary McDonough. Thank you, 
Chairman Bost, for holding this hearing.
    Let me just say that I am a veteran. I am a doctor. I 
delivered community care and I had excellent outcomes, thank 
you very much, despite having tremendous hurdles getting the VA 
to approve of community care.
    Secretary McDonough, have no difficulties with tele-
emergency care. We actually had that discussion yesterday in 
Energy and Commerce, or access standards. I want to know, 
number one, of care that is delivered in the community how much 
of it is specialty care and how much of it is primary care?
    Mr. McDonough. It is overwhelmingly specialty care.
    Ms. Miller-Meeks. Thank you. That would make a difference 
in the cost regardless of whether that care was provided at the 
VA specialty care is higher than it is generalized primary 
care, is it not?
    Mr. McDonough. Yes. Well, cost is a function both of the 
care provided but then also what we call the standard episodes 
of care provided.
    Ms. Miller-Meeks. And----
    Mr. McDonough. What we find is that the access standards or 
the standards as prescribed now for many years include a suite 
of standard episodes of care that lead to what appears to be 
redundant care, what appears to be maybe prescribing 
techniques, like Mr. Deluzio said. This is not uniformly the 
case. I am just saying these are some of the things that we see 
that contribute in the IG's findings, anyway, contribute to----
    Ms. Miller-Meeks. Do you have severity data on patients 
that are either admitted to the hospital or come to the ER, 
i.e., to your point, are we comparing apples-to-apples?
    Mr. McDonough. Severity data in what sense? I am sorry.
    Ms. Miller-Meeks. In individuals who go to the emergency 
room or are admitted to the hospital what severity, medical 
severity are they? If you do not have that data if you could 
get that data to us? That is----
    Mr. McDonough. Sure. I do not have it at my fingertips, but 
yes.
    Ms. Miller-Meeks. Thank you. I understand the VA is setting 
up a red team to write a report on reducing community care 
spending, but the report has not been shared with this 
committee. Who are the members of this red team, who appointed 
them, and what are they recommending?
    Mr. McDonough. Thanks for your question. The red team is, 
and this is, kind of, standard analytic tool designed to answer 
questions about what has happened with community care over the 
course of the last 6 years since the new law was signed into 
statute. I gather they have finished their report. I have not 
seen it. They have submitted it to VHA.
    The members of the committee include former 
undersecretaries of health in Republican and then Democratic 
administrations, as well as public health and medical experts. 
I do not have the names in front of me because I am, frankly, 
not intimately familiar with the report yet, although I will 
get there.
    Ms. Miller-Meeks. Is any veteran forced to go into 
community care?
    Mr. McDonough. Is what?
    Ms. Miller-Meeks. Is any veteran forced to go into 
community care?
    Mr. McDonough. You know, it is an interesting question. You 
talk to veterans and some of them feel that they have been and 
so----
    Ms. Miller-Meeks. Why would that be? Specifically the 
MISSION Act is within 30 days or so many miles, so if a veteran 
can get into an appointment within 30 days at the VA----
    Mr. McDonough. Within 20 for special--for primary care 
visits.
    Ms. Miller-Meeks. Then they have no need to seek community 
care----
    Mr. McDonough. Right.
    Ms. Miller-Meeks [continuing]. is my point. A veteran is 
not forced to go into community care. I, however, know veterans 
who would prefer to go into community care.
    Mr. McDonough. Yes, ma'am.
    Ms. Miller-Meeks. Building new clinics to get access when 
you have hospitals or other facilities that are in deplorable 
condition, I would say, would question one's priorities.
    A question on homelessness that was asked, Department of 
Housing and Urban Development Veterans Affairs Supportive 
Housing (HUD VASH) is an important program to permanently house 
veterans' homelessness, and I applaud the VA's work to house 
over 48,000 vets last year. However, I think there are still 
some challenges that we have. Do you know how many vouchers are 
made available on an annual basis?
    Mr. McDonough. I do not have the voucher number on my 
fingertips.
    Ms. Miller-Meeks. Okay. Do you know how many vouchers are 
unused on an annual basis?
    Mr. McDonough. We have that. We can get you that data by 
VISN, but we have that data. We set execution standards every 
year and we report those to you guys as well.
    Ms. Miller-Meeks. Okay. My understanding is that many of 
the HUD VASH vouchers go unused year after year, so why are we 
still increasing the overall budget for this program?
    Mr. McDonough. That is true that some HUD VASH vouchers go 
unused. We have identified a range of reasons why that is. 
Sometimes that the value of the voucher is insufficient given 
the price in a particular market. Some of it has to do with our 
slowness in appointing or hiring case managers, which are 
really important to organize----
    Ms. Miller-Meeks. Well, maybe instead of letting 10,000 
healthcare providers go and increasing the number of 
bureaucrats, as was alluded to earlier, maybe that is a part of 
our budget we could rethink.
    With that, I yield back.
    Mr. McDonough. Just for the record, our proposal is not to 
reduce clinical providers and then increase bureaucrat. Though 
I just want to go back to one thing about how veterans feel. 
You know, the Veteran Signal is something that we have 
instituted now for 10 years. It is a really important tool.
    You know, what we do find is that, I hear it anecdotally, 
we see it in some of the data that veterans feel that they have 
been forced into the community. I am not saying that they have. 
I am saying that they feel that.
    This is why it is so important to us to communicate to 
every veteran very clearly apple-to-apple what their 
opportunities are. We feel like when they are in our care they 
do better. That is what study after study says.
    The Chairman. Dr. Miller-Meeks, do you want to reclaim 
time?
    Ms. Miller-Meeks. I am going to reclaim my time. Thank you 
for that. When I met with veterans, and I am in the veteran 
community a lot as a fellow veteran, they love the care they 
receive at the VA hospital. They do not like waiting periods.
    They also appreciate the care they receive in the community 
and they want choice and they want flexibility. Thank you.
    Mr. McDonough. Yes.
    The Chairman. Representative Budzinski.
    Ms. Budzinski. Thank you, Chairman Bost and Ranking Member 
Deluzio.
    Secretary, it is great to see you.
    Mr. McDonough. It is good to see you.
    Ms. Budzinski. Thank you for all the work you and your team 
do at the VA every day for our veterans.
    Mr. McDonough. Thank you.
    Ms. Budzinski. It is very appreciated. I wanted to talk a 
little bit about research that the VA is doing. I very much 
believe that that worked at the VA is doing in the research 
fields is critically important to understanding illnesses and 
mental health. Its research breakthroughs have huge impacts on 
not only our veteran populations but on the general population 
as well.
    I am glad to see that the VA's research priorities largely 
reflect the needs of the veteran population, but I am concerned 
that the actual funding request does not meet the urgency for 
research on these topics.
    Additionally, the latest VA veteran suicide prevention 
report noted an increase in veteran suicide and specifically 
that that rate has increased dramatically for women veterans in 
particular. I am wondering how the VA is ensuring the budget 
request is taking into account the specific needs of our women 
veterans.
    My question is, Secretary McDonough, in that vein is can 
you speak to why the Fiscal Year 2025 budget request includes 
flat funding for suicide prevention efforts and decreases 
funding for our VA priority areas like the million veterans 
program, precision oncology, or VA Office of Research and 
Development (ORD) infrastructure and Traumatic Brain Injury 
(TBI) and brain health research in particular?
    Mr. McDonough. Yes. Well, thanks very much. You know, as I 
said earlier that obviously we make tough choices in the budget 
and that is a function of the caps. That is also a function of 
being now in this period post-pandemic where we just do not 
have the very, very generous budgets that we had gotten from 
you all over the previous several years.
    Nevertheless, the research budget does allow us to continue 
funding for priority research efforts. The million veteran 
program is, obviously, a very big priority for us. It is also a 
very significant security priority for us by the way. Ability 
to access that data base is not solely dependent on VA funding.
    Important innovations that will come out of that data base 
are not uniquely connected to our funding. We have researchers 
who can bid to use that data and that means that prior year 
robust investments in tools like that mean that very innovative 
research can continue in the out years notwithstanding, for 
example, when we reduce investments in that.
    As it relates to women's health and woman's health research 
in particular, all of our research decisions are made by the 
veteran experience and by what veterans therefore are 
experiencing. Our budget does allow both based on existing 
funding it does allow us to continue advancements and 
particular focuses for women veterans.
    It is true that if we could do more we would obviously 
welcome that opportunity, but we think that these are important 
investments.
    Ms. Budzinski. Is the VA able to, you know, assuming that 
these funding levels stay where you have requested, is there, 
kind of, preparation that the VA can be doing to take into 
account just to make sure that these programs continue to 
optimally operate and coordinate with VSOs in particular for 
their feedback on how to, kind of, work with the VA on these 
types of funding levels?
    Mr. McDonough. Absolutely, definitely.
    Ms. Budzinski. Yes.
    Mr. McDonough. Definitely.
    Ms. Budzinski. Great. I wanted to ask about another 
question as well, another important note. Chairman Bost and I 
share some VA facilities, and I want to ensure that our rural 
veterans are getting the care that they need, something that I 
have taken a specific interest in on this committee.
    One of those facilities I wanted to ask you about is the VA 
Hospital in St. Louis. What are some of the ways the VA is 
exploring optimizing rural healthcare initiatives and 
infrastructure projects, given the budget constraints for VA 
facilities like the St. Louis VA, which serve large numbers of 
rural and women veterans?
    Mr. McDonough. Yes. Well, thanks so much. You know, for the 
last couple of years that I have been here the Office of Rural 
Health has been flat funded, but it is been flat funded for a 
really important reason which is, first and foremost, it is one 
of the principal funders for the clinical resource hubs and for 
the rural health centers of excellence or the rural health 
resource centers.
    There is five of those and that funding allows us to then 
make sure that we can expand the capability of VAMCs like St. 
Louis to reach farther into rural communities through 
telehealth and through innovations.
    The second thing that the Office of Rural Health allows us 
to do is invest in new modalities of the provision of care in 
rural settings. Home-based primary care is a good example of 
this. Tele-healthcare over the course of the last 10 years or 
so was underwritten by the Office of Rural Health.
    Those things get incubated by the Office of Rural Health 
but then get deployed into the field and therefore funded by 
the medical care account itself.
    Last, as it relates to rural facilities we are more and 
more deploying through programs like Closer to Me, which is a 
oncology treatment and infusion care program, allows us to 
deploy providers from somewhere like St. Louis into a CBOC in a 
more rural setting in southern Illinois or central Illinois and 
have a veteran get their oncology treatment at the CBOC rather 
than driving all the way to St. Louis.
    It reduces the demand or the challenge of travel for that 
veteran, allows the veteran maybe then to have family with them 
as they are getting that infusion, and it means that the 
veteran does not also have to go into the private sector which 
may not have treatment options any closer than that CBOC. These 
kinds of efforts to promote access and to promote ease of 
access are a big part of our strategy going forward.
    Ms. Budzinski. That is great. Thank you, Secretary.
    I yield back. Thank you.
    Mr. McDonough. Thanks.
    The Chairman. Mr. Secretary, thank you for your time----
    Mr. McDonough. Thank you.
    The Chairman.--and waiting around with this situation that 
we had today. I do need to address one more important matter 
before you leave.
    Mr. McDonough. Please.
    The Chairman. Over the past year VA has been more than a 
month late in responding to over a dozen letters. Currently, VA 
owes this committee responses to numerous letters, including on 
important issues like improper benefit payments, abortion, and 
employee misconduct at VA medical centers.
    Further, when VA finally responded to committee letters the 
response is often inadequate. Your repeated failure to provide 
sufficient answers to my Office Of Resolution Management, 
Diversity, and Inclusion (ORMDI) letter last fall led to the 
committee's first subpoena in 8 years. Most recently, in your 
2-month--you are 2 months late on a response to a letter 
seeking documents related to VA's attorney's anti-Semitic 
comments, and we have not been given any of the documents that 
we were asking for.
    I do want to ask if we can get your commitment for those 
documents that I asked for and the letter that was in January 
20, that we had sent on January 25th? If we could try to get 
those by next Friday if at all possible?
    Mr. McDonough. Okay. I will turn to this as soon as they 
get back to the office.
    The Chairman. Thank you so much for being here and thank 
you for, as I said, waiting around when we do not--you know we 
do not normally do this.
    Mr. McDonough. No, no, thanks very much for the opportunity 
to testify.
    The Chairman. Thank you. We would like to welcome the next 
panel up.
    All right. I would like to welcome our second panel. Thank 
you for hanging around for the length of time you did, and we 
appreciate it.
    Representing the independent budget service organizations 
from the Veterans of Foreign Wars we have Mr. Patrick Murray, 
the director of national legislative services.
    We also have Mr. Shane Liermann, the deputy national 
legislative director of Disabled American Veterans.
    Finally, we have Mr. Butler, the senior health policy 
advisor at Paralyzed Veterans of America.
    I ask the witnesses to please stand and raise your right 
hand.
    [Witnesses sworn.]
    The Chairman. Thank you, and let the record reflect that 
all witnesses answered in the affirmative.
    Mr. Murray I now recognize you recognize you for 5 minutes 
for any opening remarks.

                  STATEMENT OF PATRICK MURRAY

    Mr. Murray. Thank you, Chairman Bost, Ranking Member 
Deluzio and members of the committee. On behalf of the 
independent budget VSOs, DAV, PVA and VFW, thank you for the 
opportunity to present our recommendations to properly fund the 
Department of Veterans Affairs.
    For more than 30 years, the IB VSOs have provided 
independent recommendations to ensure that VA remains fully 
funded and capable of carrying out all of its missions. I would 
ask for the record our complete independent budget document 
will provide an overview of our most significant 
recommendations.
    First, it is important to note that VA's full-year 
appropriations was not enacted until half the year had passed. 
This routine use of continuing resolutions limits VA's ability 
to expand access to critical benefits and services for 
veterans. We believe Congress must do better.
    Mr. Chairman, with veterans continuing to roll and receive 
higher priority eligibility due to PACT Act, the IB VSOs 
recommend that VHA be provided a total of $152.8 billion for 
Fiscal Year 2025, which would be a 6.6 percent increase from 
the previous year.
    Underlying all of VA's healthcare delivery is its 
infrastructure, the buildings in which it provides care and 
services. We are concerned that VA's request for major and 
minor construction is one-third lower than what VA requested 
last year and that is far below what is necessary.
    We recognize the critical importance of having modern up-
to-date facilities which is why the IB VSOs recommend $5.2 
billion alone for major construction which is four times more 
than the current funding level and almost $1 billion for minor 
construction, which would be a 30 percent increase.
    Infrastructure funding has remained stagnant for far too 
long. In the past 10 years it has only increased 5 percent. 
During that same time, the construction backlog known as the 
strategic capital infrastructure, sorry, strategic capital 
investment plan, known as a SCIP, has grown exponentially. In 
2014, the SCIP was approximately $16 billion worth of work. 
Right now it is estimated to be $130 billion. That is an 
increase of 116 percent. Funding cannot remain stagnant.
    Private healthcare invests considerably more into the 
infrastructure of their networks. Last Congress, Kaiser 
Permanente testified before the Senate Veterans Committee that 
they invest approximately 3 percent of their overall budget 
into its infrastructure. VA invests considerably less, only 
close to 1 percent. Unless there is drastic increase in 
resources for VA infrastructure we will continue to see 
additional gaps in the backlog versus work that is able to be 
performed each year.
    Infrastructure costs have gone up year-over-year and it 
will not get any less expensive over time. This will also force 
more care into the community and exacerbate hiring challenges 
for VA.
    Mr. Chairman, generally the administration's budget request 
takes a positive step toward fulfilling our Nation's 
obligations to America's veterans. In fact, with the exception 
of a few items, like the aforementioned infrastructure issue, 
VA budget meets or comes close to many of our recommendations. 
However, we do have concerns about funding trends in the VA's 
budget.
    Over the past decade VA's reliance on community care has 
risen drastically. While we agree that veterans must have non-
VA options to fill gaps in care, we believe VA must remain the 
primary provider and coordinator of veterans' care. While VA is 
requesting an overall increase for medical care, the community 
care program would grow at a faster rate than VA-provided care.
    In addition, VA's request would cut 10,000 healthcare FTE 
including 600 physicians, 2,400 nurses, 500 nonphysician 
providers, and over 2,000 healthcare technicians despite VA 
reporting more than 66,000 healthcare vacancies at the start of 
this year. We should not be cutting positions when we cannot 
even fill the ones we currently have.
    We are also concerned that VA proposes using $12.7 billion 
in carryover funding rather than requesting new discretionary 
appropriations. If VA's unobligated balance at the end of 
Fiscal Year 2024 is less than projected we are concerned about 
a potential funding shortfall next year.
    Last, we believe that the greatest roadblock to properly 
funding veterans' benefits and services comes from budgetary 
enforcement mechanisms designed to limit Federal funding. To 
ensure our Nation meets its sacred obligations to America's 
veterans, the IB VSOs call on Congress to exempt veterans' 
programs, services, and benefits from congressional Pay As You 
Go (PAYGO), as well as work to eliminate the use of CRs for VA 
care.
    Mr. Chairman, this concludes our testimony. My DAV and PVA 
colleagues and I will be pleased to answer any questions you or 
members of the committee may have.

    [The Prepared Statement Of Patrick Murray, Shane Liermann 
And Roscoe Butler Appears In The Appendix]

    The Chairman. Thank you, Mr. Murray. The written statements 
of all three witnesses will be entered into the record. We will 
now proceed to questions.
    Mr. Murray, I spoke earlier about the VA attorney who made 
the terrible anti-Semitic comments. VA Office of General 
Counsel is requesting a significant budget increase. What is 
your view of how VA has handled the situation with this 
attorney and what do you think the office's priorities should 
be in dealing with this?
    Mr. Murray. You know, obviously anything anti-Semitic is 
terrible. That needs to be flatly stated. Office of General 
Counsel needs a lot of resources. They are under resourced 
right now. They are still working in paper-based systems. They 
are understaffed.
    In fact, there is a lot of discussion about the claim 
agents and nonaccredited folks, but they are not even, we 
believe, enforcing the laws for the actual accredited people 
right now, the rules and laws that they have already have. For 
example, there are accredited attorneys who are violating the 
law and all they are doing is receiving demand letters telling 
them to stop.
    They can do a better job. We do not believe they are 
prioritizing that. We hope more people and more resources will 
take care of that so that accredited attorneys and agents who 
are already breaking existing laws are held to account.
    The Chairman. Okay. My next question is going to be real 
difficult for each one of you to answer, but I know in your job 
you are going to say nothing, probably, but let me ask you 
anyway. Mr. Murray, and all three of you, the VA budget is 
approaching $400 billion. What wasteful and ineffective 
programs would you cut? How and why would you do that?
    I know that is not really, like I said, within your, you 
know, but we are trying to know that everything that we are 
doing is efficient and truly helping the veterans. When an 
agency is the second largest bureaucracy in the world it is in 
there somewhere.
    Mr. Murray. Sure. There are ways to be more efficient with 
your spending. I do not know necessarily about cutting, but if 
we spend more money appropriately we will save money in the 
long term, for example, paper-based systems. That takes a lot 
of manhours. That takes a lot of resources. We need to 
modernize it. It has an upfront cost to some of those things, 
much like the Electronic Health Record (EHR) does, but also 
infrastructure.
    If we spend appropriately now it is going to save us less--
more money in the future. Having to eliminate wasteful repairs, 
maintenance, things like that on old systems just to keep them 
limping along instead of spending the proper money to build 
efficient, modern systems.
    It is not necessarily a cut but it is a better way to spend 
the money we do have.
    Mr. Liermann. Thank you so much for the question. Along 
with what Mr. Murray just said, I do not have a recommendation 
on a program that cut but an idea for us to be more efficient, 
specifically when we are talking about toxic exposures and 
presumptive diseases.
    We all know the PACT Act was monumental and will continue 
to be, but we also know it came with a very large cost. That is 
because we decided to wait 20, 30, 40 years before we take 
action on establishing presumptive diseases.
    There is a way we can do it faster, do it quicker. If we 
can establish things up front we are not going to wait 20 or 30 
years with such a larger cost to do something. DAV and Military 
Officers Association of America (MOAA) we are going to be 
putting out a report and a study coming out in July to talk 
about all of these conditions and our recommendations on how to 
make this presumptive disease process work more efficient for 
veterans, the VA, and when it comes to spending.
    Mr. Butler. I do not have a recommendation either, but I 
believe the OIG has identified numerous opportunities for cost 
savings with regard to waste, fraud, and abuse, and VA has not 
lived up to those recommendations. I would recommend that 
Congress hold VA accountable in regard to the OIG report as it 
regards to waste, fraud, and abuse, and ensure that they take 
corrective actions to eliminate those that are wasting money 
due to fraud and abuse.
    The Chairman. Thank you. You know, I am going to continue 
down this path because I have to believe, and we are monitoring 
this, and matter of fact, Mr. Self is himself has jumped into 
it as well, that when we are looking at many of the programs we 
are wanting to do after the PACT Act, many of our bills were 
wanting to move.
    Somewhere, sometime there has to have been some program 
that was passed that has either been ineffective or wore out 
its effectiveness of possible treatments, programs, or 
whatever. I know, like I said, you want to see the expansion 
but we want to see that to make sure that the things that we 
are investing in are those that do what they were promised to 
do when we passed the legislation, whether it was while we have 
been here or those that came before us to try to straighten it 
out. Any suggestions you might have at a later time I might----
    Mr. Murray. Mr. Chairman, if you look at some programs that 
were obviously well-intentioned at the time with the VRRAP 
program, the Veteran Rapid Retraining Assistance program, 
right, that was built up for COVID putting people back to work 
post or during COVID, things like that were well-intentioned. 
Did not exactly pan out.
    If we look at things like the GI Bill restoration that was 
part of the Forever GI Bill there was a lot of money that was 
set aside for that. It did not live up to the numbers that we 
thought it might have.
    There are ways to look at things we have done over the 
years where we might have overestimated or gone, you know, 
worked off of Congressional Budget Office (CBO) scores that may 
not have been----
    The Chairman. Right.
    Mr. Murray [continuing]. totally accurate over time. Blue 
Water Navy is another example. There were massive estimations 
about who that is going to help, how many people. It was not 
nearly as much.
    There are places to look at that. We would more than happy 
to chat with you and----
    The Chairman. All right. I would appreciate that help.
    Representative Deluzio.
    Mr. Deluzio. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and echo your good 
concern about public expects us to give the best bang for the 
buck of taking care of our fellow veterans. Never be shy please 
with ways that VA can do better.
    Gentleman, the independent budget recommended $36.8 billion 
in overall funding for fee-for-service community care for 
Fiscal Year 2025. It turns out to be about $4 billion less than 
what VA itself is expecting to obligate for that care next 
fiscal year.
    What are your thoughts about VA's proposal to transfer 7-
plus billion from direct care medical services account to the 
fee-for-service community care account in Fiscal Year 2025? 
Relatedly, do you have concerns about the effect this will have 
or may have on VA medical facilities and VA's ability to 
provide direct care to veterans?
    Mr. Murray. Mr. Deluzio, we do have concerns about that. As 
you mentioned some of the statistics in your statement, it is 
some of the trends that we are looking at. That is why making 
VA care as the primary provider of care the first thing we 
think is important because of all the success metrics we have 
seen, but we cannot do that without the people to provide the 
care and the up-to-date, safe buildings to do that in.
    That is why to the chairman's point about fraud, waste and 
abuse we think we want to focus more on efficiency. I we get 
those things done in place, that there is a place to do that, 
we think that is going to save money in the long run.
    Mr. Deluzio. Very good. Anyone else on the panel if you 
feel free?
    Mr. Butler. I will just say the staffing reductions that VA 
is talking about reducing staffing, they would not have to 
reduce staffing if they can find ways to lessen community care 
out in the community. They should not be reducing staffing. 
They should be building its staffing levels to ensure that 
institutional care or VA care they have the resources to 
provide that care to our Nation's veterans.
    Mr. Deluzio. Thank you. Just real quick, we are always 
concerned about VA is not the primary care provider. Is there 
going to be a good coordination of that care, especially when 
we started talking about medications and what they refer to as 
polypharmacy?
    A lot of veterans can get multiple medications from 
multiple sources within VA or in the community care and nobody 
is watching what that negative synergistic effect is going to 
have on their care.
    That is why we really believe VA being the primary care 
provider and coordinating it is the best interest for veterans.
    Mr. Deluzio. Well, I appreciate that point on care 
coordination in particular. We have had some oversight about 
that and I have asked questions of it is very inconsistent and 
very sporadic what providers outside of VA are doing in terms 
of getting records back into VA, what veterans can see about 
their care.
    Certainly VA can do better and we are going to push VA to 
better on care coordination, but it seems like the Wild West. 
Some providers I am sure do well. Seems like others do not, and 
so I appreciate that point.
    With what little time I have left, transitional housing, so 
those providers are routinely contacting this committee to 
discuss resources they need to serve aging veterans or those 
with disabilities and their care. Would H.R. 491, the Return 
Home to Housing Act, provide more resources for Grants and Per 
Diem (GPD) providers? What kind of resources do those providers 
need to better be able to serve the aging and disabled homeless 
population?
    Mr. Murray. Mr. Deluzio, passing the Home Act would go a 
great way in accomplishing that mission. GPD payments we 
believe they need to be upheld to the rate that they are in 
that bill. It does cost a lot to accomplish that mission so 
putting that bill forward, getting that done in the veterans' 
package I know that is being threatened to be dropped for 
months, but we want that to come to fruition.
    Mr. Deluzio. Very good. Gentlemen, thank you.
    Mr. Chairman, I yield back.
    The Chairman. Representative Ciscomani. Easy for me to say 
this late in the day.
    Mr. Ciscomani. Thank you, Mr. Chair. I appreciate the 
opportunity and thank you so much for being here with us today.
    My first question here is for Mr. Liermann. Thank you. The 
VA budget proposes to cut VR&E staff, and as I have been 
talking about and hearing a bit, I introduced legislation this 
week, the Vets Opportunity Act, which would expand the 
educational opportunities available to veterans and skilled 
trade programs. Do you perceive there to be an issue with the 
VR&E cuts and then the staff cuts and the VA's ability to 
connect our most-deserving veterans with career and education 
opportunities?
    Mr. Liermann. Absolutely. Over the last year, and thank you 
for the question, there was a 40 percent increase in 
applications for VR&E and a lot of that is because of the PACT 
Act more veterans are eligible. Any change to that is going to 
have a negative impact on veterans trying to complete their 
programs.
    Any way that we can find that will assist them in 
transitioning and, most importantly, overcoming their own 
service-connected disabilities to find gainful employment is 
where we should always be focused.
    Mr. Ciscomani. Thank you. Thank you. Maybe you know this, I 
represent the southeastern part of Arizona. This is over 70,000 
veterans are in my district and one military base and one 
military installation, Davis-Monthan (D-M) Air Force Base and 
Fort Huachuca. Especially in the Cochise County area where Fort 
Huachuca is, the veteran population is a strong and big 
percentage of the population there. This is very important to 
my constituents so I want to make sure that those services are 
there and available.
    Now, Mr. Murray, it is a goal of mine to ensure that 
veterans have the option to receive care conveniently as close 
to home if they have the ability. We have heard from veterans 
in my district, as well as some VA staff, that there is 
confusion among veterans when it comes to their community care 
appointments. Specifically, they are sometimes unsure who their 
points of contact are scheduling appointments and follow-ups, 
especially in light of the VA's proposal to cut community care 
by, quite frankly, an astounding $10 billion.
    Do you have suggestions on how the VA can better be 
allocating resources to go toward outreach and education to 
veterans regarding the utilization of community care?
    I gave Cochise County as an example. This is one of the 
main areas where I hear this from, more on the outside of rural 
areas where there is confusion when they have to travel to get 
care. This is, again, very important to my district. Would you 
mind commenting on that?
    Mr. Murray. Absolutely, sir. I have experienced it myself 
personally. Some members of my family have experienced some of 
the confusion about coordinating community care. I think that, 
you know, picking up the phone and having to call around and 
speak to the right person, get transferred, wait on hold, speak 
to the right person----
    Mr. Ciscomani. Yes, exactly.
    Mr. Murray [continuing]. it is very difficult. We can do 
better with technology. I know that apps might not be the most 
preferred thing for a lot of folks, but it will help streamline 
things if we get things online, appointments, the ability to 
track and schedule, things like that so you can see that in 
real time right from your phone.
    We can get better at informing our veterans about their 
care and their appointments, what is available, and then also 
places for them to follow-up so there is not spending the 
better part of a morning on the phone waiting on hold.
    Mr. Ciscomani. Yes, and I do agree that, obviously, 
technology is always going to be more cost effective and we 
want our Federal agencies and departments to be conscious of 
those expenses to be put in the right place. At the same time I 
do not think any effort is too big to be able to reach our 
veterans as well. Some would prefer the app or technology. Some 
will prefer, depending on their comfort level, to speak to a 
person.
    I understand the staffing challenges on that, but I also 
appreciate the priority placed on making sure that every 
veteran is met where they are, both in their comfort level on 
communication, but many times physically as well in making sure 
that we have these resources and services where they live 
without having to go to great extent to travel and get there.
    Even more so when they already do not have the services 
locally but it is hard to get a hold of someone that makes it 
even more difficult. I have had cases where just a simple 
question--this was not for care to go visit someone but the 
preface of a question they had to travel to feeling that they 
had a better shot at someone hearing them if they were there in 
person.
    I do not like to hear that. I do not think any of us like 
to hear that. I just challenge you to address this issue as 
well and make sure that we meet veterans where they are both 
physically but also in their comfort level to communicate.
    Mr. Murray. Completely agree.
    Mr. Ciscomani. Thank you, sir.
    I yield back, Mr. Chairman.
    The Chairman. Thank you. I want to say a thank you again 
for staying around and had the day drawn out like it did, but I 
am dealing with these issues. We are and I am very concerned 
that the VA seems to be struggling to manage its budget.
    Congress has also provided the resources VA requested and I 
am committed to prioritizing our veterans. That is from our 
Republican side of the aisle regardless of what might have been 
said in opening comments and you all know that. I believe both 
Republicans and Democrats are trying to do the best that we can 
to make this budget work for those people who have served us so 
well.
    The budget gimmicks that the VA is using are becoming more 
and more complicated, and I think they are seeing some of it 
backfire on them. VA is the only organization I know of where a 
10 percent budget increase can result in a shortfall. Does not 
happen in your house. I just do not see it, but it does not add 
up.
    I want to assure you and the veterans and VA employees 
watching this hearing that we will continue to work with the 
department to straighten this mess out. We are going to 
preserve the health care and benefits that veterans depend on 
and the other services that VA provides. We are going to make 
sure that employees are treated fairly.
    I think we can best accomplish that by simplifying the 
budget. With that, I ask unanimous consent that all members 
shall have 5 legislative days in which to revise and extend 
their remarks and include any extraneous material. Hearing no 
objection, so ordered.
    This hearing is now adjourned.
    [Whereupon, at 12:50 p.m., the committee was adjourned.]
     
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                         A  P  P  E  N  D  I  X

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                    Prepared Statement of Witnesses

                              ----------                              


                 Prepared Statement of Denis McDonough

    Chairman Bost, Ranking Member Takano, and distinguished Members of 
the Committee, thank you for the opportunity to testify today in 
support of the President's Fiscal Year 2025 Budget and Fiscal Year 2026 
Advance Appropriations (AA) Request for VA.
    VA is honored to serve the Nation's heroes--our Veterans. Over the 
last 3 years, we have delivered more care and more benefits to more 
Veterans than at any other time in our Nation's history. VA is working 
to provide Veterans, their families, caregivers, and survivors the best 
care in the world, the benefits they have earned, and a dignified last 
resting place that honors their service and sacrifice. Last year, 
Veterans submitted over 2.4 million claims--a record, and 39 percent 
more than in 2022. Veterans also submitted nearly 2.3 million intents-
to-file--another record, and 65 percent more than in 2022. In Fiscal 
Year 2023 alone, the Veterans Benefits Administration (VBA) completed 
more than 1.9 million disability compensation and pension claims, 
breaking the previous year's record by nearly 16 percent. VA delivered 
a record $163 billion in earned benefits to over 6 million Veterans and 
survivors--and provided more in-person, tele-health, and telephone 
appointments than ever before. The Board of Veterans' Appeals processed 
over 103,000 appeals, more than in any previous year. Additionally, 
more than 46,000 Veterans were permanently housed, far surpassing the 
Department's goal of 38,000. And more than 4.1 million Veterans of 
every war and conflict, now rest in VA national cemeteries.
    The Sergeant First Class Heath Robinson Honoring our Promise to 
Address Comprehensive Toxics (PACT) Act of 2022 (P.L. 117-168) 
represents the largest expansion of Veterans' benefits in a generation, 
and I am immensely proud that our broad efforts have yielded 
outstanding results as we continue to see steady increases in the 
number of toxic exposure-related disability compensation claims 
processed. VA just recently fully implemented section 103 of the PACT 
Act, ahead of schedule, which expanded health care eligibility to all 
Veterans who were exposed to toxins and other hazards while serving our 
country at home or abroad and all Veterans who served in the Vietnam 
War, the Gulf War, Iraq, Afghanistan, or any combat zone after 
September 11, 2001, or were deployed in support of the Global War on 
Terror. Nonetheless, we can do more to ensure that every eligible 
Veteran receives the benefits and health care they have earned. Our 
focus remains on increasing Veteran outreach, timely and accurately 
processing of claims, providing more and better-quality health care, 
modernizing our information technology (IT) systems, and ensuring that 
we have the necessary staffing with the right skills to deliver on our 
promise to Veterans.

FY 2025 Budget and Fiscal Year 2026 AA Request

    VA's total 2025 request is $369.3 billion (mandatory and 
discretionary, including collections and the Recurring Expenses 
Transformational Fund (RETF)), which is a $32.9 billion or 9.8 percent 
increase above the 2024 level. This includes a discretionary budget 
request of $134.0 billion (with $4.4 billion from medical care 
collections and $307 million from RETF), an $8.9 billion, or 6.2 
percent, decrease from 2024. The 2025 mandatory funding request is 
$235.3 billion, with $24.5 billion from the Toxic Exposures Fund (TEF), 
an increase of $41.8 billion, or 21.6 percent, above 2024.
    The decrease in discretionary funding of $8.9 billion from 2024 
reflects the Fiscal Responsibility Act of 2023 (P.L. 118-5), which set 
overall non-Defense discretionary budgetary ceilings. Nevertheless, we 
project that the 2025 request will provide the necessary resources to 
meet VA's commitment to deliver timely access to world-class health 
care and earned benefits to Veterans. The request fully funds over 9.1 
million enrolled Veterans, including the continued operation of the 
largest integrated health care system in the United States and support 
for care delivered through community providers consistent with the 
MISSION Act. In 2025 it will also provide disability compensation 
benefits to nearly 6.9 million Veterans and their survivors and 
administers pension benefits for over 224,000 Veterans and their 
survivors. The 2026 Medical Care AA request includes a discretionary AA 
of $131.4 billion, plus a mandatory advance appropriation request of 
$22.8 billion for the TEF. The 2026 mandatory AA request is $222.2 
billion for Veterans benefits programs (Compensation and Pensions, 
Readjustment Benefits, and Veterans Insurance, and Indemnities).

PACT Act

    As of March 23, 2024, VA has received more than 1.3 million PACT 
Act-related claims and completed over 1,149,000 claims. Using the new 
PACT Act authorities, VA has granted service connection for over 10,000 
terminally ill Veterans. VA will continue to award disability 
compensation to those Veterans who were subject to a presumption of 
service connection from the PACT Act. At the same time, in accordance 
with Title II of the PACT Act, VA is exercising the new presumptive 
decision process by studying acute and chronic leukemias and multiple 
myeloma as potential presumptions due to exposure to particulate matter 
in Southwest Asia. VA is also evaluating other conditions and exposures 
that may require formal reviews in the future.
    In calendar year 2023, more than 361,000 Veterans were newly 
enrolled into VA health care, an increase of more than 73,000 from 
Fiscal Year 2022. Our 2023 health care enrollment efforts focused 
primarily on bringing in Post-9/11 combat Veterans during a 1-year 
special enrollment period created by Section 111 of the PACT Act. This 
targeted effort contributed to one of the largest health care 
enrollment growth periods in VA history. The special enrollment period 
for combat Veterans ended in September 2023 and, in that month alone, 
we enrolled 48,763 Veterans in VA health care. In comparison, the prior 
year's monthly enrollment total around that same time was about 26,000 
Veterans.
    VA expects our enrollment to continue to grow with the expedited 
implementation of Section 103 of the PACT Act. Originally planned to be 
phased in over several years, VA made this new health care eligibility 
effective in its entirety as of March 5, 2024. That means that toxic-
exposed Veterans and those who supported certain overseas contingency 
operations will be eligible for care earlier than expected, affording 
our heroes with the world-class health care they have earned sooner.

Investing in Our People

    Providing world-class service is only possible with employees who 
are the best and brightest in their respective fields. We are focusing 
on improving the employee experience so that they, in turn, deliver 
exceptional care and benefits to Veterans and their families, 
caregivers, and survivors. We are increasing the use of incentives for 
recruitment and retention, maximizing the use of existing pay and 
scheduling authorities as well as the new authorities recently enacted 
by Congress in the PACT Act, expanding scholarship opportunities, and 
providing more education loan repayment awards than ever before. From 
October 1, 2021 through March 23, 2024, we have hired 14,447 new VBA 
claims processors - growing our claims processing workforce by 
approximately 58 percent - and increased the total size of VBA to more 
than 33,900 employees, resulting in a record level of claims 
processing. As a result, VBA has completed 1,030,089 rating benefit 
claims in Fiscal Year 2024, as of March 5, 2024, 35 percent greater 
than this point in Fiscal Year 2023. Also, the disability compensation 
and pension claims backlog (comprised of claims pending for longer than 
125 days) as a percentage of all claims received is at 38 percent as of 
March 5, 2024, compared to 70 percent in 2013, which is the last time 
the rating claims inventory was nearly this high. Forecast modeling 
continues to show VA remains on track to bringing the claims backlog to 
100,000 claims or fewer by the end of 2025. Likewise, the Veterans 
Health Administration (VHA) hired nearly 62,000 new staff in Fiscal 
Year 2023 and, together with substantially improved retention rates, 
grew the health care workforce by 7 percent.
    During 2023, VHA administered 4,845 scholarships for clinical 
education to employees and increased the number of new Education Debt 
Reduction Program (EDRP) awards to 3,398, which brought the total 
active EDRP participants to over 9,000. Additionally, the percentage of 
staff receiving recruitment, retention, and relocation incentives (3R) 
increased from 12 percent to 18 percent. At rural facilities, the use 
of 3Rs continued to climb in Fiscal Year 2023, increasing from 19 
percent to 20 percent. In addition, for some critical shortage 
occupations, such as medical technicians (18 percent to 33 percent) and 
police (13 percent to 29 percent), the use of 3Rs increased even more 
dramatically. These incentives reduced losses for critical shortage 
occupations and helped VA successfully compete for health care and 
entry level staff. Additionally, VHA adjusted over 1,700 special salary 
rates, resulting in a 10 percent average increase in salaries impacting 
nearly 41,000 health care workers in support of PACT Act 
implementation. VHA also authorized critical skills incentives for over 
28,000 employees in 37 different occupations as of the beginning of 
Fiscal Year 2024. The average critical skills incentive amount received 
by these employees was approximately $7,900.
    Thanks to the robust hiring efforts in 2023, VBA and VHA are well-
positioned to serve Veterans and need not continue the staff growth of 
2022 and 2023 in 2024. Consistent with the 2025 budget, VA will 
strategically focus its hiring in key areas, to include mental health 
providers and front-line health care workers in regions with shortages.

Focusing on Wellbeing of Veterans

    The Fiscal Year 2025 budget provides the resources that support 
Veterans' overall health and economic well-being. The Fiscal Year 2025 
request includes $4 billion in discretionary funding for the VBA 
General Operating Expenses account, $136 million more than the 2024 
President's Budget. This includes funds for increased overtime funding 
for the timely processing of claims and investments in artificial 
intelligence to improve key processes.
    The President's Budget provides disability compensation and 
survivor benefits to over 7 million Veterans and their families, 
delivers education and job training benefits to1.1 million Veterans and 
qualified dependents, guarantees 433,000 home loans, and funds 5.6 
million total lives insured for Veterans, Service members, and 
qualified dependents.
    VA remains steadfast in our commitment to assist Veterans, active-
duty Service members, and eligible surviving spouses in retaining their 
homes and avoiding foreclosure, having assisted over 145,000 borrowers 
to retain their homes in Fiscal Year 2023. VA has leveraged a suite of 
traditional and COVID-19 related loss mitigation options to aid 
borrowers who have trouble making mortgage payments. To address the 
needs of Veteran borrowers still experiencing the effects of the COVID-
19 pandemic in a rising interest rate environment, or other economic 
shocks, VA plans to launch the Veterans Affairs Servicing Purchase 
program on May 31, 2024. This program will provide Veterans an 
affordable, scheduled monthly mortgage payment that reduces the debt 
owed over time at a rate much lower than the current market interest 
rate while eliminating the uncertainty resultant from balloon payments 
and payoffs.

Preventing Veteran Suicide

    Suicide prevention requires a comprehensive public health approach. 
With a focus on evidence-based clinical interventions and community-
based, evidence-informed prevention strategies, we aim to reach all 
Veterans--both those inside and outside of our system with life-saving 
interventions.
    Suicide is a complex public health and national security issue. In 
addition to mental health risk factors for suicide, the evidence 
indicates that we assess a broader array of socio-economic and socio-
cultural risk factors. With no single cause, there is no single 
solution, and we must be comprehensive in our approach as we know some 
Veterans may not receive any services from VA. To support this 
nationwide effort, the budget specifies $583 million for suicide 
prevention outreach programs, in addition to $2.7 billion in suicide 
prevention-specific treatment. Additionally, the budget plans to spend 
$17.1 billion in Fiscal Year 2025 for mental health care, a critical 
component of suicide prevention.
    Our 10 year National Strategy on Preventing Veteran Suicide (2018) 
has been codified through VA's Suicide Prevention 2.0 Initiative, 
Suicide Prevention Now initiative, new laws including the 2020 
Commander John Scott Hannon Veterans Mental Health Care Improvement 
Act, the Veterans Comprehensive Prevention, Access to Care, and 
Treatment Act of 2020, the National Suicide Hotline Designation Act of 
2020, and emerging innovations like Mission Daybreak, combined with 
research and program evaluation. These efforts together help VA to 
reach all Veterans, not only those engaged in VA services. For example, 
in September 2023, the Staff Sergeant Parker Gordon Fox Suicide 
Prevention Grant Program (SSG Fox SPGP) awarded $53 million to 80 
community-based organizations across 43 States, the District of 
Columbia, Guam, and American Samoa. These organizations provide or 
coordinate the provision of suicide prevention services for eligible 
individuals, including Veterans and their families. VA prioritized 
grants to rural communities, Tribal lands, Territories of the United 
States, areas with medically underserved groups, areas with a high 
number or percentage of minority Veterans or women Veterans, and areas 
with a high number or percentage of calls to the Veterans Crisis Line. 
Twenty-one grantees serve Tribal lands including the Navajo Nation, 
Cherokee Nation, Choctaw Nation, Alaskan Native Tribes, and others. VA 
published the Notice of Funding Opportunity for the SSG Fox SPGP on 
January 26, 2024, for a third year of services.

Increasing Access to Mental Health Care

    Telehealth, especially video mental health care including substance 
use disorder treatment, has played a crucial role in improving access 
to mental health services. Video mental health care now constitutes 33 
percent of total mental health care visits, showcasing the significant 
role of telehealth during and beyond the pandemic. In Fiscal Year 2023, 
over 1 million Veterans benefited from nearly 6 million video 
telemental health (TMH) care visits, marking a 5 percent increase in 
Veterans and a 1 percent increase in visits compared to Fiscal Year 
2022; 96 percent of these TMH visits occurred in a Veteran's home or 
offsite location, emphasizing the convenience and accessibility of the 
service. Because most mental health visits can be conducted using TMH, 
it increases the available options for providing mental health care to 
all Veterans, no matter where they or their providers are in the U.S. 
This helps increase health care equity and access. Telehealth offers 
Veterans greater choice and removes their individual barriers to care--
barriers such as stigma, transportation, distance to facility, 
childcare, financial constraints, logistical issues, and lack of access 
to in-person specialists who can deliver evidence-based interventions. 
Telehealth has become a primary consideration for Veterans seeking 
mental health care, with those in rural areas using video services at 
rates comparable to others. With plans to increase telehealth support 
staff and specialized providers, VA is to enhance its nationwide TMH 
network so even more Veterans can access mental health care virtually.
    Among the risk factors for suicide, substance use disorder (SUD) is 
strongly implicated. In addition, drug overdose fatalities have 
escalated. The President's Budget includes $254 million to improve VA's 
opioid safety initiative and to continue our joint work with the 
Department of Defense (DoD) in the field of pain management, consistent 
with the requirements of the Comprehensive Addiction and Recovery Act 
of 2016 (P.L. 114-198, Title IX, Subtitle A, Sec. Sec.  911-912, the 
Jason Simcakoski Memorial and Promise Act). VA is also expanding 
evidence-based SUD treatment and harm reduction initiatives consistent 
with the Biden-Harris Administration's National Drug Control Strategy. 
The President's Budget includes $264 million to support VA initiatives 
that address Veteran specific needs, including employment, case 
management for Veterans experiencing housing instability, peer support, 
as well as in-patient, residential, and out-patient SUD care, delivered 
in-person and via telehealth, inside and outside specialty care 
settings.
    Furthermore, VA's budget continues to support expansion of its 
Psychotropic Drug Safety Initiative to address the growing number of 
Veterans with stimulant use disorder and crisis of overdose fatalities 
associated with illicit stimulant use. This initiative increases 
Veterans' access to evidence-based treatments for stimulant use 
disorder and overdose prevention, while also ensuring the safe and 
appropriate prescribing of stimulant medications. Evidence-based 
treatments for stimulant use disorder include cognitive-behavioral 
therapy and contingency management, both of which are recommended by 
the 2021 VA-DoD Clinical Practice Guidelines (CPG) for the Management 
of SUDs.

Health Care Budget Request

    Providing Veterans access to the soonest and best care is at the 
core of our mission. At a time when VA is expanding access to health 
care for millions of Veterans and delivering record numbers of 
appointments, VA is laser-focused on making sure that Veterans have 
access to world-class health care whenever and wherever they need it. 
In 2025, planned obligations for VA health care, including TEF, are 
projected to be $149.5 billion, an increase of 5.4 percent above the 
2024 budget.
    VA offers affordable, timely, and high-quality health care for the 
Nation's Veterans. In 2023, nearly 70 percent of VA hospitals receiving 
4 or 5 stars in the annual Centers for Medicare & Medicaid Services 
Hospital ratings, compared to just 41 percent of non-VA hospitals. VA 
hospitals outperformed non-VA hospitals in all 10 core patient 
experience metrics in Medicare's latest survey of patients and, most 
importantly, more than 91 percent of the Veterans we serve trust VA 
with their care, a level unmatched anywhere in the private sector.
    VA will ensure that every eligible Veteran has a chance to access 
VA care, including community care. We can now offer Veterans VA care at 
almost every turn, whether that is through an in-person appointment, 
telehealth appointment, placement in our community living centers, or 
another option. And that is exactly what we want to do.

Women Veterans' Health Care

    In 2023, VA celebrated 100 years of providing health care to women 
Veterans. The budget requests $264 million for women's health and 
childcare programs. This funding level supports $210 million for the 
Women's Health Innovation and Staffing Enhancement Initiative (WHISE). 
VA is strategically enhancing services and access for women Veterans by 
hiring women's health personnel nationally to fill any gaps in capacity 
across all Veterans Integrated Service Networks. Through WHISE, VA is 
funding over 1,000 women's health personnel including: primary care 
providers, gynecologists, mental health providers and women's health 
care coordinators, including maternity care coordinators. VA is also 
using WHISE funding to purchase needed clinical equipment such as new 
or replacement mammography equipment, exam tables designed for women 
with low mobility, and breastfeeding privacy pods.
    Among eligible women Veterans receiving VHA care, more than half 
have at least one mental health condition and many struggle with 
multiple mental health concerns, medical comorbidities, and 
psychosocial challenges. These include gender-specific conditions, such 
as premenstrual dysphoric disorder, postpartum depression, and 
perimenopausal depression, all of which are associated with heightened 
suicide risk. VA has implemented numerous initiatives to ensure that 
women Veterans seen at any VA medical facility have access to mental 
health clinicians with the knowledge and skills to treat gender-
specific mental health conditions, including reproductive mental health 
concerns. Examples include the National Reproductive Mental Health 
Consultation Program, comprehensive training in reproductive mental 
health across the lifespan, evidenced-based treatments tailored for 
women Veterans (as recommended by 2023 VA-DoD CPG for the Management of 
Pregnancy), and at least one designated Women's Mental Health Champion 
at each VA medical center (VAMC).
    Women Veterans often feel a sense of connection and trust with peer 
specialists who can relate to their experiences in the military. 
Evidence shows that peer support is effective for alleviating some 
conditions unique to a woman's experience, such as postpartum 
depression. The President's Budget includes $2 million to support 
expanding peer support services for women Veterans. VHA is committed to 
honoring women Veterans' specific needs and treatment preferences by 
implementing national peer support training initiatives and 
disseminating novel, gender-tailored peer support interventions. These 
interventions are developed to be delivered both in person and via TMH 
to ensure greater access for women Veterans who often report barriers 
due to caregiving responsibilities.

Homelessness Programs

    The 2025 budget provides $3.2 billion for Veterans' homelessness 
programs, with the goal of ensuring every Veteran has permanent, safe, 
sustainable housing with access to high-quality health care and other 
supportive services to end and prevent future Veteran homelessness. The 
budget includes funds to assist with designing and developing expanded 
services for aging and disabled Veterans, a growing need and area of 
focus for the Department of Housing and Urban Development (HUD) - VA 
Supportive Housing (VASH) program. In addition, funds will be used to 
provide a medical home model and population tailored approach to 
provide in-home primary care and wrap around services to Veterans 
actively enrolled in the HUD-VASH program, provide additional resources 
to increase outreach and community engagement efforts, as well as the 
expansion of Veteran justice services, such as treatment courts and 
Veteran-focused criminal justice initiatives. Funding will also support 
the VA Grant and Per Diem program to increase per diem rates to 
community partners actively supporting VA's effort to end Veteran 
homelessness.
    On December 15, 2023, HUD, released the 2023 Point-in-Time Count, 
the annual effort to estimate the number of Americans, including 
Veterans, without permanent housing. Data show that on a single night 
in January 2023, 35,574 Veterans experienced homelessness in the U.S. 
Although this reflects a 7 percent increase in the number of Veterans 
experiencing homelessness from 2022, VA and our Federal partners have 
reduced Veteran homelessness by more than 52 percent since 2010. During 
calendar year 2023, VA permanently housed 46,552 homeless Veterans, 
surpassing the goal to house 38,000 Veterans by more than 22 percent.

Research

    The 2025 budget requests a total of $927 million for research, 
which includes $59 in mandatory through the TEF funding. These 
resources will improve Veterans' health and well-being through basic, 
translational, clinical, health services, rehabilitative, genomic and 
data science research; apply scientific knowledge to develop effective 
individualized care solutions for Veterans; attract, train, and retain 
the highest-caliber investigators and nurture their development as 
leaders in their fields; and ensure a culture of professionalism, 
collaboration, accountability, and the highest regard for research 
volunteers' safety and privacy.
    In 2025, the Office of Research and Development will coordinate 
with environmental exposure focused programs as part of the 
implementation of the PACT Act by building capacity (including the 
number of researchers funded to conduct military exposures research) 
and strengthening inter-governmental partnerships. This includes to 
implement an interagency workgroup on toxic exposure research, called 
for in section 501 of the PACT Act, to identify evidence gaps and craft 
a strategic plan to address gaps. The budget invests $59 million in 
2025 for military environmental exposures research, an increase of $13 
million from the current estimate for 2024.

Caregivers

    The budget recognizes the important role of caregivers in 
supporting the health and wellness of Veterans and offers support and 
services through the Program of General Caregiver Support Services to 
family members and friends caring for a Veteran as well as through the 
Program of Comprehensive Assistance for Family Caregivers (PCAFC) to 
family caregivers caring for Veterans who meet specific eligibility 
requirements. The $2.9 billion included in the budget supports 
staffing, stipend payments, training, education, and other services to 
empower caregivers of Veterans. VA is currently undertaking a broad 
programmatic review of PCAFC to ensure it meets the needs of Veterans 
and their family caregivers. While this review is underway, VA has 
suspended annual reassessments for PCAFC participants. While the 
current eligibility criteria are examined, VA will not discharge or 
decrease stipends or support to PCAFC participants and their family 
caregivers, based on an annual reassessment. VA is also expanding 
services to family caregivers, to include specific suicide prevention 
training, mental health services, and respite services.

Connected Care

    The 2025 budget includes $440 million for the Connected Care 
program and supports the ongoing expansion and enhancement of 
telehealth services directly to Veteran homes (e.g., video-to-home 
services); goals to standardize the availability of digital services 
for all Veterans; expansion of regional telehealth hubs, novel access 
and experience innovations; and the need to sustain previous expansion 
efforts funded with the support of the Coronavirus Aid, Relief, and 
Economic Security Act and the American Rescue Plan funding. VA 
delivered over 11.6 million telehealth episodes of care to Veterans in 
the last fiscal year. This includes over 9.4 million episodes of care 
to Veterans in their home or other locations and more than 2.9 million 
telehealth episodes of care to rural Veterans. Overall, VA provided 
telehealth services to over 2.4 million unique Veterans, representing 
about 40 percent of Veterans served in VA.

Aging Veterans

    Because they make up a significant portion of the Veterans we 
serve, aging and older Veterans must be a significant priority now and 
in the future. Veterans over the age of 65 represent about 50 percent 
of all VHA enrollees. Currently, VA is expanding home-and community-
based services. This expansion includes programs such as Veteran 
Directed Care, Medical Foster Home, and Home-Based Primary Care 
programs. All are aimed at enabling Veterans to age in place with the 
necessary support and services. VA is focused on implementing the VHA 
Institute for Healthcare Improvement's Age Friendly Health Systems 
initiative and VA's Geriatric Emergency Department Accreditation from 
the American College of Emergency Physicians initiative to prepare VA 
facilities and staff with the leading evidence-based care practices. VA 
is on a strong path to become the largest integrated age-friendly 
health system in the world. As of January 8, 2024, 132 VAMCs have 
earned formal Age-Friendly recognition in 305 care settings. The new 
2024 VA Age-Friendly Health System initiative action community has 
projects registered for another 410 teams from 126 facilities. As of 
December 2023, 68 of the VA's 111 Emergency Departments earned 
Geriatric Emergency Room accreditation and others are actively in the 
process for 2024.

Infrastructure

    The President's 2025 Budget includes $2.8 billion for construction 
requirements, including $2.5 billion in Major and Minor Construction 
appropriations and an estimated $307 million from the Recurring 
Expenses Transformational Fund (RETF) for VHA Minor Construction 
requirements. This request is $593 million greater than VA's 
discretionary 2024 request.
    Funding for two major medical facility projects includes the West 
Los Angeles New Critical Care Center, Central Utility Plant, 
Demolition, and Renovations to Building 500 and Dallas Clinical 
Expansion for Mental Health, Expansion of Parking Facilities, and Land 
Acquisition, together supporting over 400,000 Veteran enrollees. The 
2025 budget also includes $45 million in Major Construction funds for a 
gravesite development project at Fort Logan National Cemetery in 
Denver, Colorado. The budget requests $687 million for Minor 
Construction, inclusive of RETF. This amount includes $174.1 million in 
Minor Construction funds to address gravesite expansion and columbaria 
requirements to keep existing national cemeteries open as well as 
address infrastructure deficiencies and other requirements necessary to 
support national cemetery operations. In addition, VHA's Medical 
Facilities account includes $2 billion for non-recuring maintenance.
    Also included in the 2025 budget are nine major medical facility 
leases totaling over 1.9 million square feet of space supporting a 
workload of over 2.3 million outpatient visits and bed days of care per 
year. These leases are key to modernizing VA's clinical points of care 
and increasing access for the increasing number of Veterans anticipated 
to access VA care because of benefit expansion offered by the PACT Act.
    Further, VA is aggressively working to pursue implementation of the 
goals of Executive Order 14057, which creates a broad set of 
challenging goals and requirements for Federal agencies to eliminate 
their carbon footprint and make their operations more sustainable and 
resilient. In support of this, VA's 2025 budget request includes Minor 
Construction funding totaling $7 million for the National Cemetery 
Administration (NCA) and VBA electric vehicle charging requirements.

Information Technology Serving Veterans

    The 2025 budget provides $7.6 billion for VA IT systems and 
telecommunications support, including $6.2 billion in base 
discretionary funding and $1.4 billion in TEF, reflects the Office of 
Information and Technology's efforts to deliver modern, innovative, 
secure, and efficient solutions for the Nation's Veterans. To increase 
Veterans' access to VA information and services, strategic IT 
investments through the limited, controlled expansion of modernization, 
cybersecurity, and IT workforce, will allow VA to make key investments 
in Federal initiatives, including Zero Trust Architecture, Artificial 
Intelligence, and improved access for Veterans with certain 
disabilities through Section 508 Compliance.
    To create a 21st Century VA focused on meeting the demands of 
Veterans in the digital age, IT modernization is critical in achieving 
digital transformation goals. The 2025 budget sustains the increased 
investments made in the 2024 budget and supports the continued 
operations and maintenance of VA's existing aging and legacy systems. 
VA continues to expand critical modernization initiatives bolstering 
the Department's ability to serve the Veteran including: the 
Infrastructure Readiness Program to reduce technical debt, Financial 
Management Business Transformation (FMBT) to enable compliance with 
financial management legislation and improve stewardship of resources, 
and Supply Chain Management to provide cost-effective logistics and 
ensure the delivery of world-class health care and benefits to 
Veterans.
    When Veterans leverage technology to access VA services, they trust 
that the underlying digital ecosystem is safe, reliable, and secure. 
The 2025 budget invests $670 million in cybersecurity and VA's Zero 
Trust Architecture acceleration effort will deliver a robust and 
resilient security posture for the nine million Veterans that use VA 
for care and benefits and the hundreds of thousands of VA employees and 
contractors spanning over 600,000 connections to the network.
    Investing in the IT workforce makes VA an attractive employer for 
top talent that can better deliver services to Veterans. The 2025 
budget supports the Special Salary Rate authorized in 2023 for IT 
technical positions under PACT Act authorities. VA will maximize these 
incentives for targeted expansion of IT services - including Artificial 
Intelligence - to VA employees and Veterans during a period by record 
growth in health and benefits delivery. This investment is critical for 
VA to continue delivering world-class IT products and services to 
millions of Veterans, their families, and caregivers.

Electronic Health Record Modernization

    As part of an Electronic Health Record Modernization Program Reset 
(Reset) announced in April 2023, VA deferred work on future deployments 
of the Federal electronic health record (EHR), the sole exception being 
the successful joint VA and DoD deployment at the Captain James A. 
Lovell Federal Health Care Center (North Chicago, Illinois) in March 
2024, while the Department prioritizes improvements at the 6 sites and 
22 clinics that currently use the Federal EHR. The purposes of the 
Reset are to: optimize the current state of the Federal EHR, closely 
examine and address the issues that clinicians and other end users are 
experiencing, and position VA for future deployment success. VA is 
seeing incremental, but accelerating progress as it addresses the 
issues that clinicians and other end users are experiencing and as it 
optimizes the current state of the EHR system to ensure the enterprise-
wide foundation is in place for success when deployments resume. The 
Fiscal Year 2025 budget of $894 million supports the Reset and 
sustainment/maintenance of the six sites. VA acknowledges that an 
updated deployment schedule is critical to demonstrating commitment to 
providing the Federal EHR to end users across the enterprise and will 
provide that schedule to the Committee once it has been determined.

Financial Management Business Transformation (FMBT)

    The 2025 budget includes $313 million for FMBT, a program that is 
improving VA's fiscal accountability and enhancing analytic and 
resource management capabilities for our employees who serve Veterans. 
Deployment of the Integrated Financial and Acquisition Management 
System (iFAMS) is taking place in phased implementations across VA 
Administrations and Staff Offices. Looking ahead, iFAMS will be 
implemented for VBA's Loan Guaranty Service, and the program recently 
initiated the first VHA implementation.

Honoring Veterans' Legacies

    The President's 2025 Budget includes $495 million for NCA's 
operations and maintenance account, an increase of $15 million (3 
percent) over the 2024 budget. These funds will ensure Veterans and 
their families have access to exceptional burial and memorial benefits 
including expansion of existing cemeteries as well as new and 
replacement cemeteries. With these funds, NCA will provide for an 
estimated 137,440 interments, the perpetual care of over 4 million 
gravesites, and the operations and maintenance of 158 national 
cemeteries and 35 other cemeterial installations in a manner befitting 
national shrines.
    While every eligible Veteran may be interred at any one of VA's 
open national cemeteries and a significant majority of the 122 VA 
grant-funded Veterans cemeteries, VA realizes that proximity to a 
cemetery is an important consideration in whether Veterans and family 
members choose a VA-funded cemetery for their final resting place. For 
this reason, NCA is committed to providing 95 percent of the Veteran 
population with access to first interment burial options (for casketed 
or cremated remains, either in-ground or in columbaria) in a national 
or State Veterans cemetery within 75 miles of the Veteran's place of 
residence. VA has made continuous, significant progress toward meeting 
that target. In 2025, an estimated 94 percent of the Veteran population 
will be served with such access. The 2025 budget also includes $60 
million for the Veterans Cemetery Grants Program to continue important 
partnerships with states and tribal organizations. The grants program 
plays a crucial role in NCA achieving its strategic target of providing 
95 percent of Veterans with reasonable access to a burial option.
    Additionally, the 2025 budget continues NCA's implementation of the 
Veterans Legacy Memorial (VLM), the Nation's first digital platform 
dedicated to the memory of nearly 10 million Veterans interred in VA's 
national cemeteries and VA grant-funded State, territorial, and tribal 
Veterans cemeteries. VLM allows family, friends, and others to preserve 
their Veteran's legacy by posting tributes. In November 2023, VLM 's 
website had its largest expansion yet with the creation of nearly 5 
million pages for Veterans in private and other cemeteries who have 
received a headstone, marker, or medallion from NCA since 1996.

Conclusion

    Chairman Bost, Ranking Member Takano, thank you for the opportunity 
to appear before you today to discuss our progress at the Department 
and how the President's Fiscal Year 2025 Budget and Fiscal Year 2026 
Advance Appropriations Request will serve the Nation's Veterans.

 Prepared Statement of Patrick Murray, Shane Liermann And Roscoe Butler
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                       Statements for the Record

                              ----------                              


Questions for the Record Submitted by Juan Ciscomani, Jennifer Kiggans 
                          and Morgan McGarvey
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   U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs Response to Questions for the 
           Record Submitted by Mike Levin and Julia Brownley
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                                 [all]