[House Hearing, 118 Congress]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]
DEFENDING AMERICA
FROM THE CHINESE COMMUNIST PARTY'S
POLITICAL WARFARE, PART I
=======================================================================
HEARING
BEFORE THE
COMMITTEE ON
OVERSIGHT AND ACCOUNTABILITY
U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
ONE HUNDRED EIGHTEENTH CONGRESS
SECOND SESSION
__________
APRIL 17, 2024
__________
Serial No. 118-102
__________
Printed for the use of the Committee on Oversight and Accountability
[GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Available on: govinfo.gov,
oversight.house.gov or
docs.house.gov
__________
U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE
55-455 PDF WASHINGTON : 2024
COMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT AND ACCOUNTABILITY
JAMES COMER, Kentucky, Chairman
Jim Jordan, Ohio Jamie Raskin, Maryland, Ranking
Mike Turner, Ohio Minority Member
Paul Gosar, Arizona Eleanor Holmes Norton, District of
Virginia Foxx, North Carolina Columbia
Glenn Grothman, Wisconsin Stephen F. Lynch, Massachusetts
Michael Cloud, Texas Gerald E. Connolly, Virginia
Gary Palmer, Alabama Raja Krishnamoorthi, Illinois
Clay Higgins, Louisiana Ro Khanna, California
Pete Sessions, Texas Kweisi Mfume, Maryland
Andy Biggs, Arizona Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, New York
Nancy Mace, South Carolina Katie Porter, California
Jake LaTurner, Kansas Cori Bush, Missouri
Pat Fallon, Texas Shontel Brown, Ohio
Byron Donalds, Florida Melanie Stansbury, New Mexico
Scott Perry, Pennsylvania Robert Garcia, California
William Timmons, South Carolina Maxwell Frost, Florida
Tim Burchett, Tennessee Summer Lee, Pennsylvania
Marjorie Taylor Greene, Georgia Greg Casar, Texas
Lisa McClain, Michigan Jasmine Crockett, Texas
Lauren Boebert, Colorado Dan Goldman, New York
Russell Fry, South Carolina Jared Moskowitz, Florida
Anna Paulina Luna, Florida Rashida Tlaib, Michigan
Nick Langworthy, New York Ayanna Pressley, Massachusetts
Eric Burlison, Missouri
Mike Waltz, Florida
------
Mark Marin, Staff Director
Jessica Donlon, Deputy Staff Director and General Counsel
Margaret Harker, Deputy Chief Counsel
Kelsey Donohue, Counsel
Abby Salter, Counsel
Mallory Cogar, Deputy Director of Operations and Chief Clerk
Contact Number: 202-225-5074
Julie Tagen, Minority Staff Director
Contact Number: 202-225-5051
------
C O N T E N T S
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Page
Hearing held on April 17, 2024................................... 1
WITNESSES
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Col. Grant Newsham (Ret.), Colonel, U.S. Marine Corps
Oral Statement............................................... 7
Peter Mattis, President, Jamestown Foundation
Oral Statement............................................... 9
Dr. Robert Spalding, Brig. Gen. (Ret.), Founder and CEO, SEMPRE
Oral Statement............................................... 10
Dr. Timothy Snyder (Minority Witness), Richard C. Levin Professor
of History and Public Affairs, Yale University
Oral Statement............................................... 12
Opening statements and the prepared statements for the witnesses
are available in the U.S. House of Representatives Repository
at: docs.house.gov.
INDEX OF DOCUMENTS
----------
* Statement for the Record; submitted by Rep. Connolly.
* Book Review, ``Timothy Snyder's Lies'', by Daniel Lazare;
submitted by Rep. Biggs.
* Testimony of Christopher J. Urben, U.S. Senate hearing;
submitted by Rep. Biggs.
* Article, NBC News, ``Neo-Nazi Jan. 6 Rioter Pleads Guilty'';
submitted by Rep. Crockett.
* Article, Time Magazine, ``How a Far-Right Militia Uses
Facebook to Train New Members''; submitted by Rep. Greene.
* Article, American Journal of Public Health, ``Association of
COVID-19 with Anti-Asian Sentiments on Twitter''; submitted by
Rep. Pressley.
* Article, CBS News, ``The Azov Battalion''; submitted by Rep.
Raskin.
* Fact Sheet, The President's Budget Confronts Global
Challenges and Defends Democracy; submitted by Rep. Raskin.
* U.S.-Indo-Pacific-Strategy, White House; submitted by Rep.
Raskin.
* Letter, to Attorney General Garland, Feb. 2, 2024, from
Members of Congress, re: Chinese Marijuana Farms; submitted by
Rep. Sessions.
* Press Release, Treasury.gov, ``Treasury Targets Chinese
Network of Illicit Drug''; submitted by Rep. Sessions.
* Article, Politico, ``Air Force Crew Made an Odd Stop on a
Routine Trip''; submitted by Rep. Tlaib.
* Questions for the Record: to Dr. Spalding; submitted by Rep.
Donalds.
The documents listed are available at: docs.house.gov.
DEFENDING AMERICA
FROM THE CHINESE COMMUNIST PARTY'S
POLITICAL WARFARE, PART I
----------
Wednesday, April 17, 2024
U.S. House of Representatives
Committee on Oversight and Accountability
Washington, D.C.
The Committee met, pursuant to notice, at 10:04 a.m., in
room 2154, Rayburn House Office Building, Hon. James Comer
[Chairman of the Committee] presiding.
Present: Representatives Comer, Grothman, Cloud, Palmer,
Higgins, Sessions, Biggs, Mace, LaTurner, Fallon, Perry,
Timmons, Burchett, Greene, McClain, Langworthy, Burlison,
Raskin, Norton, Lynch, Krishnamoorthi, Khanna, Ocasio-Cortez,
Porter, Brown, Stansbury, Garcia, Frost, Lee, Crockett,
Goldman, Moskowitz, Tlaib, and Pressley.
Chairman Comer. The hearing of the Committee on Oversight
and Accountability will come to order. I want to welcome
everyone.
Without objection, the Chair may declare a recess at any
time.
I now recognize myself for the purpose of making an opening
statement.
Today's hearing is an opportunity to understand what the
Chinese Communist Party, the CCP, is and what it seeks to
achieve in conducting warfare against the United States right
now without having to fire a single shot. We will hear from
three serious China experts, with decades of experience in U.S.
intelligence, national security, and the military, about CCP
political warfare. This will help the Committee understand what
Federal agencies can and should be doing to safeguard the
homeland.
What is the CCP? It is the ruling authoritarian regime of
China. While it is enslaving its own people in forced labor
camps in China, it is also brazenly engaging in dozens of forms
of warfare against America. Each warfare tactic seeks the
destruction of our country. For decades, the CCP has sought to
infiltrate and influence every aspect of American society.
Chief among the party's tactics is political warfare. Political
warfare is meant to influence the emotions, motives, and
behavior of Americans in a manner favorable to China's
objectives. By waging political warfare, the CCP seeks to
weaken America so that we cannot effectively fight in a kinetic
war.
According to the CCP itself, the battlefield will be
everywhere. It already is. American sectors and communities
targeted by the CCP include farming, business, K-12 schools,
universities, research institutions, technology, energy, food
supply, the defense industry, critical infrastructure, consumer
goods, ethnic groups, religious communities, media, social
media, Silicon Valley, Wall Street, and more. By getting
Americans dependent on cheap and sometimes dangerous goods made
in China, digital fentanyl like TikTok and actual fentanyl, the
CCP is determined to achieve its goal of defeating America on
the global stage. If we do not understand what the CCP is and
that this authoritarian regime considers America its main
enemy, we cannot secure our country.
The CCP's methods are unconventional and may be hard to
recognize, but its destructive ambitions to manipulate American
minds, conduct espionage, steal intellectual property and trade
secrets, bring fentanyl into our country, and many, many more
nefarious influence operations, are actively being pursued
right under our noses. China's goal is plain: to defeat
America. How does it seek to achieve this? Through the
operations of the united front. Now, what is the united front?
It is a coalition used by the Chinese Communist Party to
control, mobilize, and use nonmembers to advance CCP aims.
These networks are organized in the United Front Work
Department and dispersed throughout the entire party. General
Secretary Xi has described the united front as the CCP's magic
weapon.
The united front carries out relationship-focused influence
campaigns through a multitude of proxies found in the business
community, amongst cultural and political leaders, and in other
influential circles in America and around the world to advance
CCP interests. These proxies are individuals or entities used
and manipulated by the united front to do the CCP's bidding for
it. Why bother doing the dirty work yourself when you can co-
opt and influence people to knowingly or unknowingly advance
the CCP's interest for it?
One of the most destructive of the CCP's tactics is the
crusade to intentionally divide Americans, often by
exacerbating existing societal divisions. To be clear, it is
the Chinese Communist Party who is to blame here, not people of
Chinese descent who themselves are often singled out using
these exact same CCP war tactics. To be even more blunt, to say
that it is somehow racist or inappropriate for Congress to
investigate the CCP threat is playing directly into the CCP's
hands, and people who use this tactic are doing exactly what
the CCP wants in order to avoid scrutiny or accountability for
the CCP.
Government agencies have important responsibilities to the
many American communities and sectors targeted by the CCP. The
Oversight Committee's message to Federal agencies is this. The
threat from the CCP is grave. You must step up and recognize
what the CCP is seeking to do to our country. If agencies do
not see that the CCP is our adversary, they cannot effectively
counter China when it targets the American communities for whom
the Federal Government is responsible. The Office of the
Director of National Intelligence consistently recognizes the
CCP as the threat to American security and our economy, yet too
many agencies are not doing enough because they do not have a
China strategy, creative solutions, and proactive aggressive
methods.
Our colleagues in the Minority appear uninterested in
addressing CCP unrestricted warfare. Instead, of any number of
experts on China who they could have invited, they have instead
invited a professor whose expertise is in European history and
Russia. Russia is, of course, an important issue, as anyone
following the news can tell you. Vladimir Putin is a threat, a
brute, and no friend to America, but I would not invite one of
our China experts to talk about St. Petersburg and Moscow. And
if Democrats do not want to confront the threat of the Chinese
Communist Party's political warfare against the United States,
I believe that is a serious mistake. It is a mistake because
Democrats are doing exactly what the CCP expects from American
politicians: argue among ourselves or look the other way and
not confront the CCP's influence and infiltration tactics.
The Nation faces a real threat from CCP manipulation. It is
a quiet, yet pervasive and dangerous threat that affects
Americans every day. This Committee seeks to confront that
threat, but Republicans are not going to stop Democrats from
beclowning themselves talking about Russia during a hearing on
China. While they seek to distract from our discussion about
CCP influence, we will tackle the Chinese Communist Party's
campaign to influence and weaken our country.
The solutions agencies adopt must not only eliminate CCP
infiltration and influence from our country, they must help
inspire and equip Americans to strengthen their communities,
innovate, and create the technologies and phenomena that will
secure a strong and prosperous future for our Nation. Strong
American communities can resist even the most aggressive CCP
political warfare, and as we resist CCP unrestricted warfare,
we must remain a free society, bound by the Constitution. I
thank the witnesses for appearing here today and look forward
to their testimony. I now yield to the Ranking Member for his
opening statement.
Mr. Raskin. Thank you kindly, Mr. Chairman. Authoritarian
states use propaganda to dehumanize their victims and to mask
their brutality. The propagandist's purpose, Aldous Huxley
said, is to ``make one set of people forget that another set of
people is human.'' Today, for example, Vladimir Putin tries to
make people forget about the humanity of 38 million Ukrainians
that he wants to control. He tries to make people forget about
Alexei Navalny, whom he poisoned, falsely imprisoned, and
killed. The Chinese Government tries to make people forget
about the humanity of millions of Tibetans and Uyghurs, who
President Xi mercilessly persecutes, incarcerates, and
represses. But with their intensive programs of propaganda
today, the autocrats seek not only to subdue their own
populations, but to confuse and demoralize people who live in
democratic societies.
Today's hearing is about China's political warfare, but
China exists as part of an axis of authoritarian powers and
parties, the center of which is Russia, whose propaganda
playbook the CCP studies carefully and increasingly imitates
and follows. In the struggle between democracy and
authoritarianism today, the central military battlefield is, of
course, Ukraine, which has been invaded and hammered by Putin.
More than 10,000 civilians have been killed and 12 million
people have been driven from their homes. Russia spreads terror
with rape, child kidnapping, torture, and murder, and China is
assisting Russia in this filthy war of aggression by helping
Putin rebuild its military industrial complex, and China is
watching closely what happens in Ukraine.
As Prime Minister Kishida of Japan told us on the Floor
last week, the Ukraine of today may be the East Asia of
tomorrow. But if Ukraine is the central military battlefield in
the showdown, the democratic societies of the world are the
central psychological and political battlegrounds as the
tyrants inject lies and disinformation into our politics. For a
decade now, our intelligence community, law enforcement, and
national security agencies have warned of the systematic and
pervasive efforts by Vladimir Putin, his intelligence
operatives, his internet research agency, and his allies to
destabilize our politics, sabotage our campaigns, affect our
election outcomes, and poison our society with divisive racial,
ethnic, religious, and ideological propaganda.
Just this morning, Mr. Chairman, the Washington Post
reported on a secret document written by Russia's foreign
ministry that leaked out. As the article explains, ``Russia is
seeking to subvert Western support for Ukraine and disrupt the
domestic politics of the United States and European countries
through propaganda campaigns, supporting isolationist, and
extremist policies.'' Russia's foreign ministry says that
Ukraine is the main crucible of our times. According to the
Post, the document says, ``The outcome of Russia's war in
Ukraine will, to a great degree, determine the outlines of the
future world order,'' a clear indication Moscow sees the result
of its invasion as inextricably bound up with its ability and
that of other authoritarian nations to impose its will
globally. Ukraine is where the world must stand against tyranny
today.
And now China is following Russia very closely. An article
this month in the Washington Post, titled, ``China is Advancing
Efforts to Influence the U.S. Election'' raises alarm, it says,
``In an echo of Russia's influence campaign before the 2016
election, China now appears to be trying to harness partisan
divisions in America to undermine Biden Administration's
policies.'' The Foundation for Defense of Democracies
identified, as part of this effort, 170 inauthentic pages and
accounts on Facebook that have been pushing anti-American
messages, including pointed attacks on President Biden.
Many of these disinformation notes bring Chinese and
Russian propaganda together to undermine U.S. foreign policy.
``In February, according to the Institute for Strategic
Dialogue, a Chinese account on X, calling itself a Western name
alongside a MAGA 2024 reference, shared a video from RT, the
Russian Television Network controlled by the Kremlin, to claim
that Mr. Biden and the CIA had sent a neo-Nazi gangster to
fight in Ukraine.'' The narrative was debunked by the
investigative group Bellingcat. But the very next day, the post
received an enormous boost when Alex Jones, the podcaster known
for spreading false claims and conspiracy theories, shared it
on his platform with 2.2 million followers.
This kind of Chinese-Russian MAGA propaganda and
disinformation circuit now penetrates Congress itself. For
example, Putin is trying to stop the democracies from helping
Ukraine by claiming that his war of conquest is really meant to
remove Nazis from power, ``denazification'' he calls it. He
invites us to believe that Ukraine is a Nazi state even though
it is actually a liberal representative democracy committed to
the equal rights of all of its citizens, and even though the
people chose as their President, Volodymyr Zelenskyy, the only
Jewish person serving as a president anywhere in the world
outside of the state of Israel. Yet the denazification myth has
spread to the MAGA precincts of Congress.
Just this week, one of our colleagues on the Committee, who
was trying to topple the speaker of the House this week because
he wants to allow a fair Floor vote on a security package to
Ukraine, recycled a defamatory lie about Ukraine. She tweeted,
``It is antisemitic to make Israeli aid contingent on funding
Ukrainian Nazis.'' I learned of this tweet from an outraged
Ukrainian-American constituent whose Christian family was
involved in saving Ukrainian Jews from both Hitler and Stalin.
She said it was ``painful beyond words to see Marjorie Taylor
Greene publicly slandering Ukrainians, who are only trying to
protect their fellow citizens from Russian mass murder.''
A similar disinformation ploy fundamentally distorted the
work of our own Committee over the last year. The key evidence
in this Committee's protracted impeachment quest, Alexander
Smirnov's infamous FBI Form 1020, replete with salacious
allegations about multimillion dollar bribes to President
Biden, turned out to be a tissue of lies planted by a person
with close and extensive ties to Russian intelligence. GOP
Members of Congress have thus used Russian-generated
disinformation to call democratic Ukraine an enemy of the
United States, to deny the people of Ukraine desperately needed
military help, and to try and impeach the President of the
United States, who has committed no offence, much less an
impeachable one.
Even with a decade of reports from national security and
intelligence agencies establishing Russia's active measure
campaigns in our politics, many of our colleagues try to drown
out such warnings by chanting ``Russia hoax'' or ``Russia,
Russia, Russia,'' essentially asking us to believe Vladimir
Putin over our own government agencies. I am happy to say it
will not work anymore. The Republican Chairman of the House
Intelligence Committee and the Republican Chairman of the House
Foreign Affairs Committee are themselves forcefully sounding
the alarm about the saturation of American politics and
Congress by Russian propaganda.
Foreign Affairs Committee Chairman, Michael McCaul, warned
earlier this month that ``Russian propaganda has made its way
into the United States, unfortunately, and it has infected a
good chunk of my party's base.'' Chairman McCaul has called out
members of the GOP for spreading Russian propaganda.
Intelligence Committee Chairman, Mike Turner, reiterated
McCaul's warning and added that specific disinformation ploys
have penetrated Congress as a result of Russian propaganda. He
said, ``There are Members of Congress today who still
incorrectly say that this conflict between Russia and Ukraine
is over NATO, which, of course, it is not.'' Our rejection of
foreign propaganda interference in our politics, Mr. Chairman,
should not depend on whether our party is the victim or the
beneficiary of the effort. We all lose when American political
dialogue falls prey to the disinformation of foreign states who
are not members of our political community. Foreign governments
have no right to define our campaigns, control our elections,
or thwart our legislative process.
The Ukrainian people are fighting a momentous battle
against tyranny and corruption to defend democracy. We need to
be on their side, and that means we need to disenthrall
ourselves from the disinformation and propaganda tactics being
waged against us by all the autocratic powers, meaning Russia
and China as well as Iran and North Korea. It is time we work
together on this project, Mr. Chairman, and I look forward to
hearing from our witnesses, especially Professor Snyder, a
leading historian of Europe and leading analyst of how
authoritarian governments work and how they try to undermine
freedom and democracy. Thank you kindly, Mr. Chairman. I yield
back.
Chairman Comer. The Ranking Member yields back on his
opening statement about the threat from China, I think.
I am pleased to introduce our witnesses here today. Colonel
Grant Newsham is a retired U.S. Marine colonel. He is currently
a research fellow at the Japan Forum for Strategic Studies
focusing on Asia and Pacific defense, political, and economic
matters. He is also a senior fellow for the Center for Security
Policy. He was the first U.S. Marine liaison officer to the
Japan Ground Self-Defense Force, and previously served as the
reserve head of intelligence for Marine Forces, Pacific. He
also has a substantial experience in Foreign Service. Colonel
Newsham will be testifying in his personal capacity at today's
hearing.
Peter Mattis is the President of the Jamestown Foundation.
Most recently, he was a senior fellow with the U.S. House
Select Committee on the Strategic Competition between the U.S.
and the CCP, on loan from the Special Competitive Studies
Project where he was the Director of Intelligence. Prior to
that position, he was appointed by the Senate to serve as the
Staff Director of the Congressional-Executive Commission on
China for the 116th Congress. He began his career as a
counterintelligence analyst at the CIA.
General Robert Spalding is CEO of Sempre AI and a senior
fellow at the Hudson Institute, where his work focuses on U.S.-
China relations, economic and national security, and the Asia-
Pacific military balance. He is a retired brigadier general in
the U.S. Air Force and has more than 26 years of experience in
strategy and diplomacy at the Departments of Defense and state.
He has previously served as the Senior Director for Strategy on
the National Security Council under the prior Administration.
He also served as the former China strategist for the Chairman
of the Joint Chiefs of Staff at the Pentagon and as a senior
defense official and defense attache in Beijing.
Professor Timothy Snyder is the Richard C. Levin Professor
of History at Yale University with an interest in modern
Eastern Europe. He is a permanent fellow at the Institute for
Human Services in Vienna, Austria. He is an Emerson Prize
awardee and Humanities and Literature awardee from the American
Academy of Arts and Letters. He is a Marshall Scholar and holds
a doctor of philosophy in modern history.
Pursuant to Committee Rule 9(g), the witnesses will please
stand and raise their right hand.
Do you all solemnly swear or affirm that the testimony that
you are about to give is the truth, the whole truth and nothing
but the truth, so help you God?
[A chorus of ayes.]
Chairman Comer. Let the record show that the witnesses
answered in the affirmative. Thank you, and you all may take a
seat. We appreciate you all being here today and look forward
to your testimony on this very important subject.
Let me remind the witnesses that we have read your written
statement, and it will appear in full in the hearing record.
Please limit your oral statements to 5 minutes. As a reminder,
please press the button on the microphone in front of you so
that it is on, and the Members can hear you. When you begin to
speak, the light in front of you will turn green. After 4
minutes, the light will turn yellow. When the red light comes
on, your 5 minutes have expired, and we would ask that you
please wrap up.
I now recognize Colonel Newsham for his opening statement.
STATEMENT OF RET. COL. GRANT NEWSHAM
U.S. MARINE CORPS
Colonel Newsham. Chair Comer, Ranking Member Raskin, and
distinguished Members, thank you for inviting me to testify.
For most of our history, our geography gave us a buffer of
distance that meant we could choose our foreign wars. The last
serious attack on the U.S. mainland was the War of 1812. The
non-continental U.S. is vulnerable as Pearl Harbor showed, but
we have long thought no invader could get at our mainland,
owing to our detached and distant situation as George
Washington put it. The CCP is determined to take away that
advantage and it has through various political warfare fronts.
It is embedding behind our lines. We have never faced such a
serious domestic attack. It is just one we refuse to recognize.
We are deeply penetrated, dying by the tens of thousands,
and there is barely a response. For example, chemical warfare.
Fentanyl killed over 70,000 Americans in 2021 alone. That is
more than died in the Vietnam War. For Americans aged 18 to 45,
drug overdoses are the main cause of preventable death. It is
destroying families and communities and cities like Baltimore
and Philadelphia. Not only can the CCP surveillance state find
the producers if it wants, as a House report released yesterday
showed, ``China is subsidizing the production of fentanyl
precursors and the U.S. is letting it happen.''
The CCP is hitting us in many other ways. Chinese economic
warfare is destroying our manufacturing and commercial sectors.
We have lost millions of jobs, hundreds of billions a year in
revenue, and entire sectors, including sectors critical for our
defense: steel, semiconductor, batteries, and shipbuilding.
Whole regions have been devastated. Meanwhile, we became
dependent on the PRC for everything from pharmaceuticals to
components in F-35s. It is the largest wealth transfer in human
history.
The most obvious eraser of the protection of distance is
PRC cyber-attacks. The same Americans who are furious about the
Chinese spy balloon floating over their heads have Chinese spy
apps loaded on their phones sitting in their pockets. China's
hacking of OPM, Office of Personnel and Management, alone gave
them files of 22 million Americans holding security clearances.
For the first time in our history, our distance does not
protect us. That is not the worst of it. The ultimate barrier
for the PRC to breach is the one protecting your mind from PRC
influence. Psychological warfare is the most important
political warfare technique. It comes down to shaping how we
think and, thus, act. Many of us think we are too smart, too
well-educated to be influenced, but have you ever said, for
example, China is just behaving this way because of a century
of humiliation? You have been influenced by CCP PsyOps. India
has suffered several centuries of similar humiliation, but it
is a consensual democracy and does not bully its neighbors. CCP
actions are not our fault. They are its choice. Parroting CCP
talking points downplay or excuse threats posed by the PRC and
justify inaction. We have never faced anything like this, and
we are under constant attack from within.
My recommendations relate to political warfare but are not
a substitute for a powerful lethal military. They are mutually
reinforcing. Urgently rebuilding our military and the defense
industrial base is ultimately a political move, showing we
recognize the threat we face and will do something about it. My
recommendations: the U.S. Government needs to relearn political
warfare, and someone needs to be responsible for the political
warfare effort and its success or failure. Currently nobody is,
and we should fight back; repeal China's permanent normal trade
relations status; delist Chinese companies on U.S. exchanges if
they do not immediately meet listing standards; institute a
strict outbound review of investment into the PRC and tighten
export controls on technology; make it more costly to act as a
proxy for the CCP, including imposing real reporting
requirements for individuals and entities operating on behalf
of PRC interests and enforcing them.
The same with academia and PRC-linked money and research:
make PRC human rights an issue constantly; protect all people
of Chinese descent in the U.S. from intimidation by Chinese
communist agents; bring back USIA and USIS and also the Foreign
Broadcast Information Service to understand what the Communist
Chinese say about us to each other; speak directly to the
Chinese people; include exposing corruption of Chinese
Communist Party elites, their overseas bank accounts, real
estate holdings, businesses, and their relatives with green
cards and support state and local governments taking efforts to
protect themselves from PRC political warfare; and educate the
public on the realities of communism and threats we are facing
and tell how the average citizen can contribute to this effort.
So, what is at stake if we do not do this and more? America
as an independent Nation. In the past, our enemies could not
get into the heartland, thanks to our detached and distant
situation. Now they are here. Thank you very much, sir.
Chairman Comer. Thank you. I now recognize Mr. Mattis for
his opening statement.
STATEMENT OF PETER MATTIS
PRESIDENT
JAMESTOWN FOUNDATION
Mr. Mattis. Thank you, Chairman Comer and Ranking Member
Raskin, as well as all of the other distinguished Members who
are here, because I think the opportunity to discuss this
challenge is one that rarely comes about in this kind of forum
and to see that this is a effort, hopefully. I am very happy to
see this, especially after my last few times on the Hill.
The People's Republic of China, led by the Chinese
Communist Party, challenges much of what the USA took for
granted about the world. And I think it is telling that both
the current Administration and the last one had a coherent
statement about the challenge that the PRC was going to
change--had the intent and the capacity to change the
international order--and to challenge the U.S. position in it.
The CCP has consistently stated its goals that it is trying to
achieve a kind of comprehensive modernity, that it is trying to
unify those areas that it claims as its own, such as Hong Kong,
Macau, Taiwan. And as we have seen in those areas, as well as
East Turkestan and Tibet and Inner Mongolia, that it is not
enough to have political control, but there is an economic,
social, and cultural element to this unification as well.
The challenge comes from the CCP's political warfare
against the United States, as we used to define it. This is
using all of the elements of national power short of kinetic
force to achieve political outcomes, and what the CCP calls
united front work is a key part of this effort. And as you
said, Mr. Chairman, united front work is a way of monitoring,
mobilizing, and otherwise controlling groups and individuals
outside the party. As Mao put it, ``How do we mobilize our
friends to isolate and strike at our enemies?''
It is also a large policy system that is much bigger than
the united front work department. It includes members from the
Politburo Standing Committee all the way down to local levels.
It includes what we have called an advisory body in the Chinese
People's Political Consultative Conferences--that is, central,
provincial, and local levels--by their own count includes
roughly 700,000 people, and this is a kind of, if you will,
united front militia outside the party that can be drawn in to
work on the party's behalf.
The China model, as we understand it, relies on access to
foreign research and technology and talent. Mr.
Krishnamoorthi's committee has done an incredible job of
explaining just how that technology and talent is there. It
requires access to foreign capital, it requires access to
legitimacy through business as usual, and through being a
normal member of international organizations. United front and
related efforts are affecting all of those things. The
community groups that are put together are used to spot
scientists and researchers who can be brought back to the PRC
and participate in military modernization efforts.
There are efforts to control the means of perception and
foreign banks and investment firms. And when you take a
reasonable position to say, well, wait a minute, if the PRC is
such a large economy, is such a significant player in the
world, and that it should be represented and there should be
some accommodation for its values, then we should remember
that, No. 1, the U.N. Charter and the Universal Declaration of
Human Rights are not about Western values or democratic values.
They are about universal values, and the PRC is a party to
them. And second, as the congressional-Executive Commission on
China uncovered several years ago, the World Bank was funding
vocational reeducation programs in Xinjiang at the height of
the crackdown. And if the World Bank is funding what are
essentially concentration camps, and something that our
government has considered to be genocide, what is left to
accommodate in terms of values?
So, I think there are a few principles that we need to
remember on this in the response, in addition to the ones that
you named of drawing clear distinctions in our own minds and in
our actions about who the adversary is, and that it is not
simply Chinese people, but it is the party itself and the
party's actions. Second is that we cannot run faster, as
someone liked to say, unless we protect ourselves. It does not
matter how well you run, how much you train. If someone is
trying to crack your kneecap and you cannot run, then you are
never going to be in the race. And that is what this political
warfare is doing to us at an economic level and to some of the
companies and technologies that we would like to see in the
United States, and that were in the United States and have been
driven out by economic espionage and overcapacity being shipped
to our shores.
Finally, enforcement will not be country agnostic. You
know, in a common law system, our laws should be principles,
but at the same time, it requires expertise and focus, and we
have limited resources. And that means that all of our efforts
to protect ourselves are going to be focused on particular
countries, and we cannot focus across the border at all
countries all the time. Thank you.
Chairman Comer. The Chair now recognizes General Spalding
for his opening statement.
STATEMENT OF RET. BRIG. GEN. ROBERT SPALDING
U.S. AIR FORCE
FOUNDER AND CEO
SEMPRE
Dr. Spalding. Chairman Comer, Ranking Member Raskin, thank
you for allowing me to testify today.
Prior to founding my current company and prior to being the
senior defense official in Beijing, as a Major, I got to study
in China at Tongji University as an Olmstead scholar. After
being a distinguished graduate at Defense Language Institute, I
studied economics in Mandarin, and I really got to know the
people, the culture, the geography of China. It was a very
positive experience. And when I came home in 2004, I told my
wife I want to live and work in China when I retire, and that
was my experience leaving Beijing or Shanghai in 2004. Some 14
years later, I returned with the knowledge of my prior
understanding of China was flawed because earlier I had not
fully understood the nature of the Chinese Communist Party.
Today, we are in a new cold war. Our adversaries wield
weapons far beyond the traditional military arsenal, instead
harnessing the power of communication to distort and manipulate
the very fabric of our society. The relaxation of our security
posture concerning active measures conducted by adversaries
like China, Russia, North Korea, and Iran has left American
institutions, those of its allies, and the entire international
order vulnerable to relentless and ongoing political influence
campaigns. These campaigns have fundamentally altered the
essence of what was once recognized as the liberal democratic
order.
I joined the military to support and defend the
Constitution by learning how to apply force to attain a
political outcome. In short, I was trained to break things.
Clausewitz captured this reality when he wrote, ``War is
politics by other means.'' During the Kosovo War, President
Clinton exemplified this concept as he used air power to stop
Milosevic's genocide of the Kosovors. We used B-2s to take out
key strategic targets of the Serbian elite, thus convincing
them to surrender Milosevic to authorities. Milosevic
eventually stood trial in The Hague.
Later, while working for the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs
under the Obama Administration, I began to understand a new
concept in warfare, not from a military strategist, but from a
businessman involved in investing in China. Influence is far
easier, less risky, and profoundly more effective than military
weapons when conducted in our globally connected world.
Chairman Mao Zedong, whose legacy is carried by Chairman Xi
Jinping and the current communist party elites, describe it as
warfare without bloodshed. I call it simply influence. During
my subsequent years of service, I devoted as much attention to
studying influence as I had to traditional military tactics.
This is far more familiar to the members of the People's
Liberation Army, the armed political wing of the Chinese
Communist Party.
Today, the Chinese Communist Party and its proxies wage a
global political war to influence the face of human
civilization using the tools of statecraft, business,
economics, trade, finance, academia, and especially technology.
Chinese companies working on behalf of the Chinese Communist
Party influence American businesses and financial institutions
with seductive promises. In turn, these American organizations
influence our political process to ensure we maintain an
economic connection to the party's influence, simultaneously
eliminating manufacturing jobs for America's working class. Our
universities and educational system are influenced economically
with grants and Chinese student tuition. Our best and brightest
scientists are influenced to move technology to China.
State, local, and Federal politicians are influenced by
Chinese investment and the often unfulfilled promise of jobs in
their districts. Apps, like Temu, harvest user data, while
other technology platforms, like TikTok, influence our thoughts
and behaviors by sowing distrust in our political system,
encouraging partisanship, and indoctrinating our younger
generation with a CCP-oriented worldview. This is not by
accident but through a measured sociopolitical model developed
after a thorough study of how the Soviet Union succumbed to
Western liberalism during the first cold war.
The Chinese Communist Party recognized to undermine our
republic, they must first establish a facade of friendship and
cooperation, positioning themselves as partners on issues such
as climate change and peace, while clandestinely manipulating
the mechanisms established in the aftermath of World War II to
expand their influence and control. Their goal is to impose a
system that, though seemingly free on the surface, mirrors the
oppressive principles of the Soviet Union. To free ourselves
and the world from this tyranny, we must completely separate
the institutions of the free world from the Chinese Communist
Party influence, or we continue the slow disintegration of our
republic.
Chairman Comer. Thank you. The Chair now recognizes
Professor Snyder.
STATEMENT OF DR. TIMOTHY DAVID SNYDER
RICHARD C. LEVIN PROFESSOR OF
HISTORY AND GLOBAL AFFAIRS
YALE UNIVERSITY
Dr. Snyder. Thank you very much, Mr. Comer. I appreciate
your recognition of me as a historian. I do not have the nimble
ability that Members and staffers do to leap from topic to
topic. I am pleased I will not be asked to speak about
appliances today. Our subject is disinformation. It is useful
as a historian to be in a gathering like this one because one
hears the insights of colleagues and recognizes that these are
themes which we have known about for decades. I wrote a book
about Soviet counterintelligence and active measures about the
institutions which the Chinese Communist Party modeled. I wrote
another book about Russian counterintelligence and active
measures in the 2010's, which serves as a model for China
today.
I want to take the term ``political warfare'' seriously and
look at it all the way down, the way the Chinese themselves do.
If we take political warfare seriously, we recognize that it
only works if we take into account the overall context and take
into account, as Mr. Comer himself said, our own role in it.
Political warfare only works insofar as it works through us.
The event in the world context about which we have to be aware,
speaking as we are in April 2024, is the war in Ukraine. One
cannot possibly understand Chinese political warfare without
understanding the intense political significance that this war
has for China right now.
In this war is at stake international order as such, which
China wishes to change. In this war is at stake the reputation
of democracy, which China wishes to bring down. In this war is
at stake alliance structures, both in Europe and in Asia, which
China seeks to damage, and in this war at stake is also the
Ukrainian deterrence of Taiwan. These are all key Chinese
interests, therefore, to separate a discussion of Chinese
political warfare from the actual kinetic war, which is taking
place in Ukraine.
The most significant war of the century and the most
significant war since 1945 must be a category error. No actual
Chinese participant in political warfare would make that
mistake, and I urge you not to make that mistake. Chinese
propaganda about this war rides Russian propaganda, both in its
methods and in its themes and its particular tropes. If we
follow Chinese propaganda about the ongoing Ukraine war, we
notice a certain pattern, which is that the political warfare
themes, which as colleagues have quite rightly said are meant
to pass through us, have, in fact, done so.
If we take the example of Chinese state media and Group 912
of the Ministry of Public Security, we notice the following
themes. First, Ukrainians are Nazis, a Russian theme picked up
by China echoed on the House Floor. Second, it is all about
NATO enlargement, a Russian theme picked up by China. Third,
Ukraine is corrupt, a Russian theme picked up by China, echoed
on the House Floor, echoed in the Senate by Senator Vance.
Fourth, that democracies cannot do anything about Ukraine, that
it is all pointless, a Russian theme echoed by Chinese
propaganda picked up in House discussions. Fifth, we should pay
attention to the border and not do anything about Ukraine, a
Russian theme picked up by China, echoed in both chambers.
Sixth, the Biden bribe, a Russian theme picked up and echoed by
China, discussed in this very chamber.
These are all Chinese attempts to do exactly what
colleagues in a defined political warfare is doing, to divide
Americans, to make Americans weak, but also to draw Americans
away from what is essentially taking place. Were one to be
serious about Chinese political warfare, one would have to take
into account the overall historical moment--the war in Ukraine,
how important that war is for China, the opportunities that war
poses for China. Chinese political warfare includes praising
Members of this House who delay voting on Ukraine. Chinese
political warfare includes the overall attempt to alter the
system. For China, the war in Ukraine is a beautiful
conjuncture to try to do just that.
So, Members, I would urge that we consider ourselves when
we consider Chinese political warfare because as Mr. Comer has
quite rightly argued, political warfare only works when it
works in an overall structure, and that only works when it gets
us to do things which are not in our own interests. Thank you
very much.
Chairman Comer. The Chair now recognizes, for the
questioning segment of our hearing, Mrs. McClain from Michigan
for 5 minutes.
Mrs. McClain. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I want to get back
to the base of the hearing. I just want to make sure I am in
the right hearing, which is defending America from the Chinese
Communist Party's political warfare, correct? OK. Great.
Thanks. OK. I want to focus on China, specifically as it
pertains to EVs and the economic threat, OK? Electric vehicles,
EVs, I believe, make us more dependent on China, and let me
repeat, EVs make us dependent on China.
The United States, unless I am missing something, does not
have the capability to produce enough EV batteries, the power
source, for Biden's EV mandates. We have to get batteries from
somewhere, and where do we get them from? China, OK, or another
option is we could let the Chinese battery companies be built
in states like ours, which does not really help us national
security-wise. If someone wants to buy an EV, hey, that is
great. That is their option. They can have that choice, but you
cannot force EVs on consumers when the demand does not exist.
Our electric grid cannot handle it. Our country can't produce
our own batteries.
Currently, some states, like California--all we have to do
is look at the facts, I know that is a struggle sometimes--but
they have rolling brownouts, right? If they have rolling
brownouts, how are they going to sustain EVs? No one can answer
that question. It is abundantly clear to most Americans that if
U.S. energy and automotive sectors rely on China for goods, the
United States will have no leverage in negotiations with China.
China will dictate to us. I do not want to be in that position.
Let me remind everyone, China is not our friend.
Colonel Newsham, can you tell this Committee how the Biden
Administration has allowed ourselves to become solely dependent
on China when it comes to renewable energies, especially as it
pertains to the batteries?
Colonel Newsham. Yes, ma'am. The Chinese have actually been
doing their best to sort of take new technologies and dominate
them, get the supply chains, for a long time. This has been
sort of going on from previous administrations as well. But
what they are saying, of course, with EVs and particularly an
Administration which may be moving too fast to try and push
green energy, green technologies, and even force EVs, that it
creates a certain dependency, which works to China's benefit,
because as you stated, they control good chunks of the supply
chain, sort of the precursor minerals and materials that you
need to make them.
Mrs. McClain. In a nutshell, being dependent on China. Does
that help us?
Colonel Newsham. Oh, it is going to kill us. The Chinese
love it.
Mrs. McClain. All right. You and I agree. The International
Energy Agency has stated that China produces approximately--get
this--75 percent of the world's supply of lithium-ion
batteries, and what do we need lithium-ion batteries for?
Electric vehicles. Just recently, the Biden Administration
finalized a rule that will further force the U.S. automotive
industry toward electric vehicles. I love this concept that the
government knows better than the American people what to drive,
what kind of stove.
I mean, I actually believe in the American people, but the
Biden Administration, they want to force us and mandate us. I
do not agree with that. I believe in people, and I believe
people can make the right decisions. Are you concerned that
these policies will make Americans and American industry, which
is the backbone of capitalism, even more reliant on China?
Colonel Newsham. Yes.
Mrs. McClain. Wonderful. Wonderful. You and I agree again.
What is concerning to me is the draconian mandate coming from
this Biden Administration is just plain dumb. I mean, I still
cannot get my arms around the government knows best. Let me
share with the American people, the government has innovated
nothing. If you want truly progress, it has to come from
innovation and that innovation comes from industry. China is
doing everything in its power to overtake the United States on
the world stage, and we are giving them a manufacturing gift
that would be devastating to us. America is a Nation where
consumers' choice must remain free, and I cannot understand why
our government is placating to China. Wait, maybe I can think
of about 8 million reasons why, and with that, I yield back.
Chairman Comer. The Chair now recognizes Ms. Norton from
Washington, DC.
Ms. Norton. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I have heard reports
of threats and attacks against Shen Yun performing arts in the
United States by China on the basis of their practice of Falun
Gong. Theaters received emails threatening mass shootings and
bombings if they refuse to cancel Shen Yun performances. Shen
Yun has reported multiple instances where the tires of their
tour buses have been slashed. Mr. Mattis, what could the United
States be doing to protect this group?
Mr. Mattis. I think we actively have to be investigating
those as crimes.
Ms. Norton. Speak up, please.
Mr. Mattis. We have to actively be investigating those as
crimes, and they have to be a priority for investigative
resources, and not simply for local police departments, but
also for Federal law enforcement. And second, when we see those
actions, they are, frankly, criminal acts by a foreign
government against our people on our soil. This is something
that has to be prioritized with a response in the bilateral
relationship with the PRC rather than a shoulder shrug or
something that we can quietly say that we talked about later.
Ms. Norton. Professor Snyder, we have talked about the
various ways autocratic regimes try to harm the adversaries
from stealing intellectual property, to hacking the
government's systems, and sowing chaos through disinformation.
I would like to focus on another way in which foreign
adversaries can target their adversaries by making money talk.
Dr. Snyder, do authoritarian regimes sometimes use money to buy
influence?
Dr. Snyder. I want to thank the Member for bringing our
attention to what is, of course, one of the absolute fundaments
of intelligence, practice, and recruitment. Colleagues have
quite correctly drawn attention to the ways in which new
technology allows one government to reach another government or
one government to reach another set of citizens. That is all
very true, but a very classic vulnerability was, is, and will
always remain financial vulnerabilities.
And so, the need or the real or perceived need of, for
example, a politician, the fact that a politician has made it
known that the politician needs money is a classic
vulnerability which intelligence operatives from any major
state would pursue. So, the fact that, let us say, a president
would make money while being president from Chinese businesses
would be a signal, a classic signal of vulnerability, yes.
Ms. Norton. The Constitution framers were certainly
concerned about foreign powers using bribes and payments to
undermine the American democratic experiment. That is why they
included in the Constitution the Foreign Emoluments Clause,
which prohibits all Federal officeholders, including the
President, from accepting any payment of ``any kind whatsoever
from any king, prince or foreign state'' without seeking
approval. Professor Snyder, could you explain why prohibiting
the President from taking gifts from foreign leaders is an
important safeguard for our democracy?
Dr. Snyder. I thank the Member for that reminder. Once
again, it shows us how history can be useful. In late 18th
century, the American founders were also aware of not only the
possibility of financial, but also psychological manipulation
of our leaders. It speaks to a very fundamental issue. There
are complex ways of manipulating leaders in another country. We
have talked about some of those. One of the three forms of
Chinese political warfare is psychological warfare. The very
simplest form of psychological warfare is to put someone in
your debt, and the simplest form of putting someone in your
debt is by giving them money. So, thank you for that
clarification.
Ms. Norton. Earlier this year, the Committee's Democratic
staff released a report detailing how some of the most
authoritarian governments in the world paid nearly $8 million
to President Trump through his businesses while he was
Commander-in-Chief, a clear violation of the Foreign Emoluments
Clause. These countries sought and, in many cases, received
favorable treatment from the Trump Administration. More than
$5.5 million dollars came from the People's Republic of China
and state-owned entities, including millions from the major
Chinese bank.
During this time, despite evidence that the ICBC, that
Chinese bank, and other Chinese banks were working with North
Korean front companies and pleas from House Republicans to
sanction these banks, Donald Trump and his Administration
refused to take any option. The figures we have on Donald
Trump's receipt of money----
Chairman Comer. The gentlelady's time is expired, but if
you want to answer where she is coming from about Trump. Who
were you addressing the question to? The professor?
Mr. Raskin. Mr. Snyder, yes.
Chairman Comer. OK. So, she went a minute and 15 over, but
OK.
Dr. Snyder. I would be very surprised if any colleagues
would disagree with the proposition that it is extremely
dangerous for a head of state--we do not need to mention a
name--to be in that kind of financial relationship with foreign
entities. Colleagues' writings have emphasized the point that
China uses its corporations as an instrument of manipulation.
Thank you.
Chairman Comer. The Chair now recognizes Mr. Palmer from
Alabama for 5 minutes.
Mr. Palmer. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Newsham, what are
the Thousand Talents Program and other similar programs
rebranded under different names?
Colonel Newsham. Sir, I will address the Thousand Talents
key program. Basically, the Chinese Communist Party looks
overseas for people who have technology, information that it
wants, particularly technology that it can use to buildup its
own economy, its military, and it gets them on the payroll. And
they do it everywhere, and there is obviously a well-known case
of a Harvard professor who got signed up for it and made a lot
of money. He got caught, got punished, but he was just the tip
of the iceberg.
Mr. Palmer. So, despite the name, which would indicate
that, you know, they are trying to promote the development of
intellectual capabilities among people, that type thing, what
it really is, is a spy buying program.
Colonel Newsham. That is really all it is. They are buying
technology, as I said, that is going to be used to dominate us
or kill Americans if a fight comes.
Mr. Palmer. Right. And how are these programs linked to the
Chinese Communist Party?
Colonel Newsham. Well, they are run directly by the Chinese
Communist Party. This is not an independent operation going. It
is Chinese government.
Mr. Palmer. Can you repeat the goal of these type programs?
You commented on the goal of these programs. Can you repeat
that with emphasis because the American people and my
colleagues need to understand what is at stake here.
Colonel Newsham. It very much is to buildup the Chinese
economy, and there is no distinction between the Chinese
economy and its military. And the objective is to dominate us
economically and militarily, and, if necessary, to beat us on
the battlefield if the time should come, if it is even
necessary.
Mr. Palmer. So, what can Federal agencies do to protect
American data technology, intellectual property from the
Chinese Communist Party from stealing it?
Colonel Newsham. You are going to have to first admit you
have got a problem. We spent decades thinking that this was all
innocuous. It was harmless. Chinese were just like us. One
thing you can do is to stop letting Chinese researchers into
American laboratories. We have huge problems at Los Alamos, for
example. It seems like every university laboratory which comes
up with some new discovery, there are always Chinese
researchers in there. You do not want to do anything that is
going to help the country that is trying to kill you, and that
is one thing you do. Do not let these people in. And there are
obviously the basic infrastructure, sort of protections you
need, but we have just opened the doors and, unfortunately, let
in people who wish us ill. And I just would say, read the
Chinese press for a week if you want to get some idea of what
they think of us.
Mr. Palmer. It is not just technology for our power grid or
our military. I mean, we are very dependent on China supply
chain for key components that our military has to have. And I
keep trying to warn people about this, and we have got
colleagues in Congress who refused to allow mining, refused to
allow the development of processing and refinery facilities to
mine and refine what we need from critical minerals and rare
earth elements, which make us dependent on China for those
things. We brag about funding manufacturing plants to make
semiconductors and microchips and we do not make anything. We
assemble them from parts we get from China, so, and it is not
just that. Could you comment on us allowing China to buy
farmland and the agricultural research that is taking place?
Colonel Newsham. Yes, sir. An important point of that is,
actually, it goes beyond just growing crops and shipping them
off to China, but rather seed technology to key advantage for
U.S. companies for the United States, and it can also be used
as offensive platforms as well. Do not be surprised at some
point in the future if our farmers have put seeds in the ground
and they are sterile. There is more to it, as I said, than just
the Chinese wanting to guarantee their food imports.
Mr. Palmer. Mr. Chairman, I would like to make a comment
about where we are heading with this hearing, and with all due
respect to my colleagues on the other side of the aisle, this
is not about Donald Trump. This is very serious. If you want to
make it about that, we can make it about that, but for crying
out loud for one time, let us put the national security
interest of this country ahead of our political interest. And I
understand that you can make a point, but so can we. We have
got all kinds of evidence, but I think this is one time that we
should stick to national security because this is serious,
serious business. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I yield back.
Chairman Comer. Very good. The Chair now recognizes Mr.
Krishnamoorthi from Illinois.
Mr. Krishnamoorthi. Thank you, Mr. Chair. As the Ranking
Member of this Select Committee on the Strategic Competition
with the CCP, I would like to start off by saying that in
addressing the threat of the CCP, we have no quarrel with the
Chinese people or people of Chinese origin or Asian origin for
that matter. That is why we should never engage in any anti-
Chinese or anti-Asian stereotyping or prejudice. And I think,
Mr. Comer, you started off with that sentiment at the start of
this hearing, so I want to just say thank you, and I hope
everybody remembers that today as we discuss the CCP
competition.
General Spalding, while we do not agree on everything, I
know we agree on this. One, the CCP is a very real threat, and
two, the CCP wants to see Republicans and Democrats divided.
You wrote on X last year in this tweet that, ``There are three
major parties in American politics. There is the Democratic
Party, the Republican Party, and the Chinese Communist Party.
In particular, the CCP seeks to keep the other two fighting.''
So General Spalding, you would agree that the CCP seeks to keep
Democrats and Republicans fighting with each other because as
long as we fight, the CCP can continue to sow doubt about U.S.
leadership, right?
Dr. Spalding. Thank you, Congressman. Absolutely.
Mr. Krishnamoorthi. And in doing so, they also can
discredit democracy in favor of dictatorships, right?
Dr. Spalding. That is part of the campaign.
Mr. Krishnamoorthi. And divide us with regard to our
approach to countering CCP military aggression, correct?
Dr. Spalding. It is more about getting us to not counter
their political aggression, although military aggression will
come into play at some point.
Mr. Krishnamoorthi. I agree that partisanship is really
unproductive when we are up against this very serious threat of
the CCP, and I hope that we can at least unite in recognizing
the challenges facing us although we might disagree about how
to approach them. Next, I want to talk about another topic,
namely biotech and the CCP's influence over one of our critical
supply chains, namely pharmaceuticals. Mr. Mattis, I know you
are familiar with the PRC biotech company called WuXi AppTec,
correct?
Mr. Mattis. That is correct.
Mr. Krishnamoorthi. They are one of the biggest biotech
companies in the world, and many American companies actually
contract with them to produce their pharmaceuticals. Now, Xi
Jinping himself has repeatedly highlighted biotech's importance
to the CCPs national goals, and you agree that the WuXi AppTec
Company is critical to CCP achieving those biotech national
goals, right?
Mr. Mattis. That is correct.
Mr. Krishnamoorthi. Here is the thing. Published reports
say that WuXi is transferring U.S. intellectual property to
Beijing without consent, so in order to get ahead, WuXi AppTec
is stealing American intellectual property, correct?
Mr. Mattis. I believe that is correct, although we have not
proven it in a court of law yet.
Mr. Krishnamoorthi. Well, I have introduced the BIOSECURE
Act on a bipartisan basis, which prevents Federal taxpayer
dollars from flowing to biotech companies of concern, including
WuXi AppTec. WuXi has been lobbying against that bill furiously
on Capitol Hill claiming that they have no relationship with
the CCP and somehow they are a private company, but, Mr.
Mattis, these are falsehoods, right?
Mr. Mattis. That is correct, because even if a company is
ostensibly private inside the PRC, if it is hosting a party
committee, if it is intimately connected with national
strategies, like the military-civil fusion development
strategy, you are talking about a company that has sort of
geared its progress and its orientation toward the party's
interests and will be responsive to the party's demands.
Mr. Krishnamoorthi. Mr. Comer, I know you care about this
issue, and I hope we can collectively pass the bipartisan
BIOSECURE bill sooner rather than later to address this very
real threat with regard to biotech. I will turn to my final
topic, and this is related to Taiwan.
Recently, I went to Taiwan on a bipartisan CODEL to discuss
the importance of deterring CCP aggression. Interestingly, the
No. 1 topic that came up in every single meeting in Taiwan was
Ukraine. Every single person that we met with in Taiwan asked
us, are you going to pass aid to Ukraine. Why? Because they see
it as vital in sending a message to Beijing to deter military
aggression by Beijing against Taiwan. So, Colonel Newsham, you
would agree that the CCP is closely watching our support for
Ukraine to inform its own approach to Taiwan, right?
Colonel Newsham. Yes, they are watching it closely. They
are also watching it regardless of what we do. It is the
outcome of Putin's invasion of Ukraine. They are watching it
very closely, and they are learning their lessons.
Mr. Krishnamoorthi. You cannot be strong on Taiwan and weak
on Ukraine, and so I hope that this week, more than any other
week, we remember that, and we pass aid to Ukraine now. Thank
you so much, and I yield back.
Chairman Comer. The Chair now recognizes Mr. Grothman from
Wisconsin.
Mr. Grothman. Just to respond a little different view of
Ukraine. I voted for Ukraine 6 times, but right now we have a
situation in which the refusal to close the border forces
members of the Republican Party to try to leverage something
that should be automatic anyway. But in any event. And this is
for General Spalding. In an effort to attain narrative
dominance and advance CPP's destructive ambitions, the CCP
carefully crafts a global narrative surrounding itself and PRC.
They do so via different economic and political incentives,
taking advantage of America's free speech and free market, but
what is the Chinese narrative regarding PRC and CCP?
Dr. Spalding. Well, the narrative is that they cloak
everything behind the PRC. In actuality, within China, there
are two constitutions. There is the Chinese Communist Party and
then there is a PRC constitution. The Chinese Communist Party
constitution says that the Chinese Communist Party actually is
a sovereign, and I think that is the challenge of our executive
branch, is identifying who the sovereign is and identifying the
type of system that they represent.
Mr. Grothman. And what is their goal?
Dr. Spalding. Their goal is to maintain power in China and
to restore the dominance of China as a nation in the world.
Mr. Grothman. Can you give me examples of what they have
done to shape the global narrative between PRC and CCP?
Dr. Spalding. Well, the most effective thing they have done
is to develop this very powerful technology that fuels the
influence campaigns that come out of TikTok. So, they have
actually adopted Silicon Valley's tactics, techniques, and
procedures of influence for commercial gain and move that into
social and political gain. So, they are actually able to use
that platform to influence 180 million Americans toward a
Chinese-centric worldview.
Mr. Grothman. OK. I know they are American private
businesses owned by some of the wealthiest people in the
country. I think of the NBA. I think of Hollywood. Can you give
us examples of how they weigh in with these money hungry
billionaires to maybe forward the Chinese communist agenda?
Dr. Spalding. Well, a good example is just the issue of
TikTok. TikTok has American investors, American investors that
have an interest in that maintaining a connection to the
Chinese Communist Party because that is what TikTok wants. And,
therefore, they lobby the Congress to make sure that there is
no bill passed with regard to defunding of TikTok.
Mr. Grothman. OK. Somebody was telling me the other day
there is a big movie out of China right now, in the last couple
of years, the narrative being that America started the Korean
War. Could you maybe elaborate on that or any one of the four
of you?
Dr. Spalding. Well, it is not just now that it has been
going on. There is actually a great museum in Dandong, China
that you can go to that talks about the aggressiveness of
America and how, you know, China was helping the great Korean
people, so it has been going on for a long time.
Mr. Grothman. OK. How does the CCP use social media to
change how young people think? Can you give us a specific
example of something that young people are breathing in that is
not true?
Dr. Spalding. TikTok is a great example. About 30 percent
of young people now get their news from TikTok. And there has
been evidence shown of Chinese Communist Party messages
embedded in TikTok, different venues, different times,
different people, to, essentially, influence different groups
toward a China-centric worldview.
Mr. Grothman. Can you just give us an example?
Dr. Spalding. Yes. So, I think one of them is that, you
know, China is not a hegemonic country, so why does the United
States seek to cast China as a hegemonic country. This is one
example of a message that they would put in.
Mr. Grothman. And what is the narrative as they tried to
tear down America? Can you give me an example there?
Dr. Spalding. Well, essentially, that democracy is chaotic,
that Washington D.C. cannot get anything done, and that if you
want the kind of, you know, government and system that exists
in China, then you should have a single party system.
Mr. Grothman. OK. Do they cause American young people to
have a negative view of America? Could you give us examples of
it?
Dr. Spalding. Perfect example is when Secretary Blinken met
with his counterparts in Alaska, and they classified America as
a systemically racist country.
Mr. Grothman. Racist?
Dr. Spalding. That is what the representative from China
said.
Mr. Grothman. I could not believe that. You have got a
country where--I mean, the whole world is trying to get in
there and people are saying we are racist? OK. Thanks.
Chairman Comer. The Chair now recognizes Mr. Khanna from
California.
Mr. Khanna. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Professor Snyder, thank
you for your scholarship. Thank you for your very strong
opening statement showing the links between China and Russia
that many Members of Congress are already praising. My friend,
Richard Levin, would be proud of you having his professorship.
But I want to ask you, just like you linked China and Russia,
also about the Middle East, and the reality is that, as we
consider the security supplemental, these issues all have
become interlinked. Fifty-six Members of Congress, including
Speaker Pelosi and myself, wrote a letter to President Biden
and Secretary Blinken asking them to stop any offensive weapons
transfer to Israel. Do you agree with Speaker Pelosi, myself,
and 56 Members, especially given what you have written about
Netanyahu, that this is not the time to provide offensive
weapons?
Dr. Snyder. I think that it is a mistake to believe that
there is a military solution in Gaza and that everything that
can be gained in Gaza by military means was gained long ago,
and that the Administration should be using every possible
leverage to secure a political solution, including and not
limited to the recommendation that you make.
Mr. Khanna. I appreciate that. A lot of my Democratic
colleagues listen to you religiously, so I am hoping they will
listen to you about this. One of the things some of us who have
signed that letter have said is have a clean vote on Ukraine. I
support it. Most people support it. I think you would get a
total Democratic caucus supporting it. And when it comes to the
Israel aid, many of us would support the defensive aid, some
may not, but many would support Iron Dome and others. We just
do not want the offensive weapons linked in that package. Do
you agree that it makes sense to have separate votes on
Ukraine, Taiwan, Israel?
Dr. Snyder. I am going to refer to Mr. Comer's, you know,
definition of the limits of my expertise. These are political
matters on which you will have better judgment than I.
Mr. Khanna. But you have good judgment. I mean, what would
you recommend if there is----
Dr. Snyder. I believe that it was politically
understandable but strategically erroneous from the beginning
to link the Israel-Gaza conflict with the Russia-Ukraine war.
There are two very different kinds of conflicts, and almost any
attempt to bring the two of them together creates more friction
and misunderstanding than anything else. While I believe that
Israel had to be supported after October 7, after the
horrifying terrorist attacks in Israel, it was a mistake
politically, I believe, to link that to an event of an entirely
different category, which is the largest land war in the world
taking place, the largest land war in Europe since 1945, an
encounter of two states, one of which has a second largest
military in the world. These are two very different kinds of
conflicts.
The Israeli-Gaza conflict will hopefully be brought to a
political solution this summer. The Russia-Ukraine war, on the
other hand, is an interstate conflict, which will be won or
lost on the battlefield, and which requires an entirely
different kind and a more serious kind of American engagement
over the long run. So, if you ask me as an American citizen and
as an expert on the region, this is what I think. There are two
very different kinds of conflict, and thus far, I believe
politically linking the two has made it harder rather than
easier to pass support for Ukraine. And that has had terrifying
costs, not just on the Ukrainian battlefield where people are
dying unnecessarily, and not just for Ukrainian civilians who
are losing territory and as a result being killed or tortured,
but also for our overall position in the world.
Mr. Khanna. I really appreciate you saying that because
there many of us, the minority in the Democratic caucus, but
who have been making your point that let us not have a linkage
of these two so that we can vote clearly for the Ukraine aid.
Some of us are fine also providing defensive weapons, but do
not want to just give a carte blanche to Netanyahu, which I
think you have articulated here. I am hopeful our leadership
will listen to you. I am hopeful Speaker Johnson will listen to
you. And I think as much as those who praised your opening
statement praise that, they should listen to your advice on
this issue. I will give you the last word.
Dr. Snyder. Well, then if I could have the last word. The
point that I made earlier about the linkage between China's
political warfare and Ukraine is very real. All of the Chinese
messaging on this issue is on one side of this issue, all of
it. And so, if we are serious about resisting Chinese political
warfare, passing aid for Ukraine this week would be a sign of
that seriousness. Thank you.
Mr. Goldman. Will the gentleman yield for a question?
Chairman Comer. The time has expired. The Chair now
recognizes Mr. Cloud from Texas.
Mr. Cloud. Thank you, Chairman. Thank you, witnesses, for
being here. I do want to thank the Chairman for hosting this
Committee. There cannot be a more important topic facing our
country right now.
Sun Tzu once said, he said, ``If one party is at war with
another and the other party does not realize it is at war, the
party who knows it is at war almost always has the advantage
and usually wins.'' And right now, we find ourselves at a place
in our country where we have not acknowledged that China is in
an unrestricted warfare against our country. And we know from
unrestricted warfare that they say they use things like
psychological warfare; smuggling; media; drug; network
technological warfare; fabrication warfare; resource warfare;
economic aid warfare, in which we just continue to spend our
money on things; cultural warfare; international law warfare;
infrastructure, terrorism, chemical warfare; biological
warfare. A number of these things we have seen already at work,
or the beginning of them, taking a foothold within our borders,
and the whole idea of unrestricted warfare, of course, is to
take out our country without firing a shot.
I found it very concerning, of course, last week when I was
in a Committee hearing with Secretary Mayorkas, our Homeland
Security Secretary, that it was a term that he seemed puzzled
by when I brought up unrestricted warfare and the need for us
to do things like secure our borders to protect against it.
When I go through this list, you know, smuggling, drug fare,
chemical warfare, economic aid warfare, all affecting or are
involved in what is going on on our Southern border, not to
mention all the potential terrorists that have come into our
country. We know a number of single adult Chinese males are
coming in, and you do not usually leave China without their
permission. And so, we have tens of thousands that have come
in, and so we have got to really be careful about what is going
on.
But I was struck, Colonel Newsham, about something you
said, because you mentioned the largest wealth transfer in
history. And it reminded me of a 2008 U.S. National
Intelligence Council report where it predicted this: ``The
unprecedented shift in relative wealth and economic power
roughly from the West to East is now underway and will
continue.'' That report went on to say, ``The United States'
relative strength, even in the military realm, will decline and
U.S. leverage will become more constrained.'' It went on to
explain why. It said, ``in terms of size, speed and directional
flow, the transfer of global wealth and economic power is now
underway roughly from West to East without precedent in modern
history.''
So, this has, like, never happened before, and, instead, it
derives itself from two sources. One, we are sending oil and
gas revenues overseas and we are sending manufacturing
overseas. And so, I am very concerned about the policies, and
especially this Administration has embraced that continue to do
these things. Now, this has been happening over decades, but
certainly we have seen kind of the pedal been put on the gas or
the foot been put on the gas pedal when it comes to this. Could
you speak to what is happening in this transfer of wealth and
political influence, and dynamic going from east to west?
Colonel Newsham. Yes, sir. As you noted correctly, it has
been going on for a long time. I used to work for Motorola, in
fact, and I watched them commit suicide in China. And that was
in the 1990s into the 2000s, so it is going a long time, but it
is still going on. And there seems to be some sign that some
industries and businessmen are waking up to the danger of
putting your money into a system like that, plus the fact that
they are out to kill us, putting it simply.
NSA really has not stopped--energy as one particular area
where it is baffling that we are giving up that advantage, and
the Chinese are taking advantage of it. Other enemies are as
well, but also, we mentioned earlier, was the so-called green
technologies. Well, China stole the technologies for those.
They started manufacturing them in China, and, with illegal
subsidies, et cetera, can now dump them onto the world markets
like the U.S. And now, even better, they have U.S. solar
companies lobbying Congress not to crack down on Chinese
illegal trade activities and stolen technology because they are
getting cheap stuff from China. It is a win-win from China's
perspective, but it has not stopped. There are some signs we
are waking up, but, unfortunately, we are not near where we
need to be.
Mr. Cloud. Now, one of the things you will hear China talk
about, they are very out there, along with Russia and Iran and
other countries, about working to create a multipolar world, in
other words, to bring the United States down from our
superpower influence. In 2018, I think it is July 22, Biden
said in a speech as Vice President, he said we are trying to
create a multipolar world. And so, it concerns me that we have
somebody in the White House right now who does not share the
objective that most of us have of a strong U.S. presence that
remains a city on a hill for the world, and then we have
somebody in the White House who has these objectives at play.
I wanted to see if you could speak to one other thing.
Alexander Solzhenitsyn said, ``To destroy people, you must
first sever their roots.'' And so, we see an ideology in many
of our institutions, specifically our learning institutions, to
kind of rewrite American history to get people to not
appreciate our founders and sometimes, just frankly, ignore our
U.S. history. For the imperfect country we are--every country
is--we have been a tremendous positive influence in the world.
Could you speak to what you have seen happening in our
universities?
Colonel Newsham. Well, it is not an acceptable thought to
consider America a good, decent Nation, and that is
unfortunately, how it is turned out, and you can imagine what
the damage is there. The idea that we have seen in things like
the 1619 Project that America is fundamentally evil, well, you
can see how that plays out. I would note that America has an
illegal immigration problem, China does not, and that tells you
a lot.
Chairman Comer. The Chair now recognizes Ms. Ocasio-Cortez
from New York for 5 minutes.
Ms. Ocasio-Cortez. Thank you so much, Chairman. I
appreciate it, and thank you to all of our witnesses for
sharing your expertise today. Dr. Snyder, your opening was, I
think, very illuminating as to the connections here between
different geopolitical theaters and how we can make sure that
we continue to defend democracy, both domestically in the
United States, but also globally.
I wanted to touch a little bit briefly on and pick up a
little bit very briefly on your exchange with Representative
Khanna here in what you assessed as a mistake in tying Ukraine
to the conflict in Gaza and also, presently, as you mentioned,
the necessity of passing aid to Ukraine as quickly as possible.
Could you speak a little bit, expand a little bit more on where
you see that entanglement or detriment in tying the conflict in
Ukraine with what is happening in Gaza, and with the
Netanyahu's Government's decisions to advance in Gaza, and how
the U.S. relates to both of those things differently?
Dr. Snyder. Happy to do my best. With respect to the
general premise, I just want to emphasize the general premise
of your question. These things are all connected. If you are a
Chinese political warrior and you are concerned with public
opinion, law, and psychology, you are not going to respect the
safe spaces of the country that you are trying to weaken. So,
we might say, I do not want to talk about Ukraine and Chinese
political warfare at the same time, but there are no Chinese
political warriors who are doing that.
Ms. Ocasio-Cortez. Correct.
Dr. Snyder. We might say, we do not want to talk about
Trump, because that is too sensitive, but you can precisely not
expect Chinese political warriors to respect your safe spaces.
It is precisely your safe spaces, your tender spots that they
are going to go after, and this is not just a speculation by
me. It is the actual record of what actual Chinese propaganda
does. It goes after the safe spaces that you want yourself not
to talk about.
On the issue of Gaza and Ukraine, I will be as specific as
I can. As I read it, in late 2023, in a different political
context than the one we are in now and in a different stage of
the war in Gaza than the one we are in now, the Biden
Administration made a political calculation that bringing
Israel and Ukraine together would be the most likely way to get
people from both sides of the aisle to vote for a substantial
bill. I believe that was a reason at the time. I was not party
to those considerations. However, months later, with two other
things having happened, the first being that the war in Israel
has gone through several stages in the meantime, and are having
gotten past any place where the Israeli military response is
going to lead to a political solution, and second, the extreme
difficulty in getting Ukraine aid to pass in any form, those
two things changed the overall political situation.
For me, who is not in the legislature and not in the
executive branch, what I see is the qualitative difference
between the two events, that Russia invading Ukraine
objectively aids the Chinese position in profound ways which
their political warriors try to exploit, but it also threatens
world order in ways that are essential to the United States and
to its European partners, whereas the conflict in Gaza is a
horrifying terrorist operation, which must lead to some kind of
political solution that will not be solved militarily. That is
my assessment.
Ms. Ocasio-Cortez. Thank you. Thank you so much, Dr.
Snyder. And I think what you laid out as so clearly there and
in your opening as well, is that the core and the key that we
have here is, geopolitically and stability, is in supporting
Ukraine in this moment. Having U.S. military assistance, and
broader global assistance to Ukraine should be one of our top
geopolitical priorities because it is the key in defending
democracy geopolitically, whether your interest is in China,
whether the interest is in anywhere else. All of the focus here
is in Ukraine and in supporting and ensuring that Putin and an
authoritarian regime in Russia does not prevail in changing the
geopolitical order, rule of law, and functioning democracy
worldwide.
And, frankly, I think it is important, from my vantage
point on the second point, is that anything that impedes the
swiftness and the urgency of our ability to get that support to
Ukraine is overall contributing to the volatility of our
situation. Would you say that that is a fair assessment?
Dr. Snyder. All of the hostile and Russia and Chinese
observers and political warriors want this to drag out as long
as possible and praise those who make it drag out, so of course
my answer would be in the affirmative. The front in Ukraine is
threatened in ways it does not have to be. The population is
threatened in ways it does not have to be. This is a relatively
easy war for us to influence in the correct way. It matters to
us for all the reasons that you have given, and we ought to do
so as quickly as possible.
Ms. Ocasio-Cortez. Thank you. Thank you, Dr. Snyder.
Chairman Comer. The Chair now recognizes Mr. Higgins from
Louisiana.
Mr. Higgins. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. My Democrat
colleagues and some of my Republican colleagues were focused on
using this area to promote sending billions more American
treasure to Ukraine. And I have been to Ukraine, I support
Ukrainian people's right to defend themselves, but I work for
the American citizenry, as do 434 colleagues up here and a
hundred senators, allegedly. Meanwhile, our own border is
dissolved, gentlemen. And China, who we are talking about today
as the purpose of this hearing, to discuss Chinese threat, the
CCP is deeply embedded in partnership with the cartels that are
trafficking drugs and human beings into our country, to the
horrific impact of the American communities from sea to shining
sea. So, I am going to discuss that for a minute, and I am
going to ask Colonel Newsham to comment on this relationship
between the Chinese partnership with the cartels in the
development and production of chemicals are produced fentanyl.
Fentanyl, we are talking about a couple of hundred thousand
Americans dead in the last 3 years from fentanyl poisoning. It
is called a point on the streets. It is a little point on the
end of an ink pen. That is why they call it a point, by the
way. It is a dosage. It is so powerful. It is deadly in the way
that Americans are ingesting that are ingesting this drug that
they do not anticipate that they are ingesting fentanyl. They
are being poisoned by that and dying, and this coming from
China to our Southern border, partnered with the cartels, under
this Administration's wide open border. And today-- today--
right now, across the campus in the Senate, they are in a
process of rejecting a legitimate accountability, an
impeachment of Secretary Mayorkas, and you are going to make
noise about sending money to Ukraine? How about let us take
care of America? How about let us hold this Administration
accountable for the disintegration of our Southern border.
Colonel Newsham, would you consider the production of
chemicals that produce fentanyl by the CCP to be a form of
warfare?
Colonel Newsham. Oh, it is definitely an act of war, sir.
They know exactly what is going on. They are allowing it to
happen.
Mr. Higgins. We have casualties in that war, do we not,
sir? A couple of hundred thousand Americans dead because of
that war.
Colonel Newsham. It is actually a lot more than that, on
account of----
Mr. Higgins. I am a Republican, sir. I am being
conservative.
Colonel Newsham. You are about three times conservative.
Mr. Higgins. Roger that. The CCP continues to take
advantage of the policies of this Administration. And Secretary
Mayorkas, we are attempting to hold accountable, and who is
stopping us from holding that man accountable? He has been
impeached by the People's House. Why will he potentially and
probably not be removed from office? Who is stopping that?
Democrats. What are they making noise about today? Sending
money to Ukraine instead of dealing with the Chinese threat
where you have 200,000 Americans dead. Pay attention, America.
This is your House, and this is a very real threat that we face
right now, deal with political crap instead of forcing
accountability.
The CCP has partnered with the cartels, Colonel Newsham.
That is my perspective. Am I correct there?
Colonel Newsham. Yes, sir.
Mr. Higgins. Continued production of fentanyl, and its
import into the cartel pipelines as it heads to the Southern
border of our country, does it not send a clear message to the
Chinese? The policies of this country, this executive branch,
they are allowing millions and millions, 12 million illegals
now in 3 years, untold thousands and thousands, hundreds of
thousands of pounds likely of fentanyl into our country, does
it not embolden the Chinese to continue that policy?
Colonel Newsham. Yes, sir, it does. And I would note from a
military perspective, if you are guarding your front and you
are not paying attention to the rear and your enemy is pouring
in, you are going to lose.
Mr. Higgins. Thank you to all the panelists for being here
today. Thank you, Mr. Chairman for convening this hearing. I
yield.
Chairman Comer. The gentleman yields back. The Chair now
recognizes Ms. Brown from Ohio.
Ms. Brown. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. As a member of the
Select Committee on Strategic Competition with the Chinese
Communist Party, I know all too well the threats we face from
the CCP disinformation, election interference, and efforts to
destabilize democracy around the world. We also know that the
CCP is not acting alone. President Xi is united with our most
significant adversaries: North Korea, Iran, and, yes, Vladimir
Putin's Russia. These nations are attacking not only us, but
threatening our democratic allies as well, like Israel,
Ukraine, and Taiwan. The propaganda campaign waged by the CCP
against Taiwan and other CCP targets, like Tibet and the
Uyghurs, directly mirrors what Iran is spreading about Israel
and Russia about Ukraine.
In fact, we have Republican members of this body repeating
Russian disinformation, or, as I like to call it, lies, as it
relates to Ukrainian President Zelensky. But do not take my
word for it. Republican leaders of the Intelligence Committee
and the Foreign Affairs Committee, both said it themselves.
Although we know the 2020 election was the safest and most
secure election in the history of this country, the completely
false narrative is that it was stolen or somehow rigged against
a certain candidate continues to this day. I remain concerned
about foreign disinformation interference in our upcoming
electoral process. Russia and China are seeking to capitalize
on the Big Lie, creating even more chaos, confusion, and
distrust before November. That is why I have already sent a
letter to the Department of Homeland Security, the Department
of Justice, and the Election Assistance Commission to report on
foreign efforts to misuse our adversaries' latest tool,
artificial intelligence in our election, and I am working on
legislation to prevent AI misuse as a way to intimidate voters.
So, Dr. Snyder, can you explain how Russia and the CCP are
capitalizing on each other's propagandist efforts to spread
disinformation in this year's election and what Congress can do
to combat these efforts?
Dr. Snyder. First of all, I want to thank you,
Representative, for using the word ``lie,'' which is very
important. If we thought about the mandate of these hearings in
a positive way, we would be thinking about what one would do,
starting from the United States, to ensure that Americans are
and can be well informed. Responding negatively, no matter how
well, to Russia or China will never be enough. There will
always have to be a positive response to ensure that there is
investigative journalism and information available to
Americans.
As far as Russia and China in these coming elections, in a
general way, one can say that there are Chinese institutions
that are modeled on Russian institutions. If you follow what
Group 912 of the Chinese Ministry of Public Security is doing,
it looks like a kind of bad copy of what the Internet Research
Agency in Russia was doing. It is all state rather than being
quasi private. Its themes and its tropes are much less
skillful, but the basic idea is the same, to convince Americans
that elections are basically pointless and then also, in this
case, to undermine the Biden Administration and to promote the
Trump candidacy. That is what its actors are doing at the
moment, so there is that relationship. The overall aim, of
course, is to get us into a situation where we do not believe
in ourselves, and we do not believe in our system. I believe
colleagues would agree that, that negation is the basic aim in
an electoral year or at any other time.
Ms. Brown. Thank you. And, Dr. Snyder, how has the twice-
impeached, 4 times indicted ex-President played into Russian
and CCP disinformation over the course of this election cycle
so far? And, as an expert in this field, does this concern you?
Dr. Snyder. I am very concerned. By the way and, again,
this goes to the point about safe spaces. It is precisely the
things that make you uncomfortable or irritated or generate
some kind of negative reaction that you have to be alert to
when you are discussing political warfare. If it makes you
uncomfortable, if it gets into your safe space, that means the
political warfare is probably working. I say that to preface
the point that January 6 is incredibly important in Russian
messaging. It demonstrates, from the Russian point of view how,
unstable democracies are, and that message has also been picked
up by China and its internet messaging in the years 2023 and
2024.
Ms. Brown. Thank you. It is clear we cannot abandon our
allies in the face of a large-scale global and coordinated
effort to influence our democratic electoral process. Every
Member of this body is the product of democracy at work. We
must send a strong message to our adversaries we are united and
ensuring every step of the democratic process from registering
to vote to casting your ballot on Election Day is protected.
And with that, Mr. Chairman, I yield back.
Chairman Comer. The Chair now recognizes Ms. Mace from
South Carolina.
Ms. Mace. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, on this hearing about
Communist China and the threats to our Nation. As you know, Mr.
Chairman, I think almost all Republicans in the House of
Representatives are actually banned from Russia. I have heard a
lot of Russian disinformation, misinformation today, and I
would argue that democracy is not throwing your No. 1 political
opponent off the ballot in a state so that you can, you know,
threaten democracy.
So, the Chinese Communist Party is the greatest threat to
the free world known to man. They are methodical, they are
intentional, and they are dangerous. Unlike our country's more
brazen enemies, the CCP plays the long game and acts covertly
in an attempt to seemingly keep their hands clean. America sees
right through it, and most of us--key word, ``most of us''--
know better. Whether it be through deadly Chinese fentanyl
smuggled across our Southern borders; cyber warfare; or
stealing of American data, intellectual property, trade
secrets, et cetera, the Biden Administration has failed to
protect Americans not only at our wide-open Southern border,
but also our interest from the communist threat, all while
funding Jihad terrorism around the world. That is what this
Administration does.
So last month, a former employee at one of the largest
American technology companies, who was a Chinese spy, was
indicted and charged with 4 counts of theft of trade secrets in
connection with a plan to steal proprietary information related
to artificial intelligence from the company. The theft of
advanced technologies plays into CCP cyber warfare and
threatens America's national security. My first question today
goes to General Spalding. To advance its destructive ambitions,
the CCP wants to become a cyber superpower. Do they aim to do
this by having CCP-backed operatives in America stealing
emerging technologies from American companies?
Dr. Spalding. They do, and they also seek to gather as much
data as they can about the United States in order to become, in
their term, an AI superpower.
Ms. Mace. Volt Typhoon has been recognized by the
Cybersecurity and Infrastructure Security Agency, CISA, as a
CCP hacker group that could disrupt critical communications and
infrastructure, especially during times and in future crises.
The Volt Typhoon CCP hackers were able to plant themselves
inside U.S. Government systems, granting the CCP the ability to
disrupt and distract cyber activity, including critical
infrastructure at any given point in time. Does the CCP have
the ability to hack into our government systems using its
hacking operations, like Volt Typhoon and others?
Dr. Spalding. Absolutely, and there are even more.
Ms. Mace. Even more. How does the CCP manage to hack into
these systems? How do they do it?
Dr. Spalding. Well, we spend a lot of money on kind of the
hard iron of national security. They spend a lot of money on
infiltration, political influence, and, in particular, having,
you know, millions of hackers that are, you know, focused on
these types of disruptive activities.
Ms. Mace. And they are doing it all day, every day, aren't
they?
Dr. Spalding. Every day.
Ms. Mace. If the U.S. Government buys and uses equipment
manufactured in China, could the CCP potentially access
information on that equipment?
Dr. Spalding. Absolutely, and that is one of the reasons
why we pushed to get Huawei out of telecommunications networks
around the free world.
Ms. Mace. What is the most vulnerable equipment, like, that
the government could purchase?
Dr. Spalding. Well, I mean, obviously, routers, but for our
electric grid, those large power transformers that, for the
most part, come from China, are one of the biggest ones because
it take years to build.
Ms. Mace. OK. And then what are the dangers of CCP cyber
warfare for just everyday Americans and then also critical
infrastructure?
Dr. Spalding. It is really about taking your data that
comes from you being on these platforms, whether it be TikTok
or Facebook or any of the others, and then learning how to
influence you to not be a fan of a republic and to embrace a
more authoritarian system. I mean, that is essentially what
they are trying to do, and they have been very successful at
it.
Ms. Mace. The CCP is trying to do that, but also, I mean,
there are American companies, there are social media companies,
there are apps that are essentially doing the same thing. Would
you agree with that?
Dr. Spalding. I would agree with that, and I think that is
part of the process. For some reason, we find ourselves in a
global narrative system that is essentially aligned across the
board between the free world and the authoritarian systems,
which is something that has precipitated because of the rise of
the internet and its influence on our lives.
Ms. Mace. And we have seen the Biden Administration try to
influence social media companies, including, you know,
weaponizing the FBI in that effort. So, thank you, Mr.
Chairman, and I yield back.
Chairman Comer. The Chair now recognizes Ms. Stansbury from
New Mexico.
Ms. Stansbury. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and, gentlemen,
welcome, and for those of you that have served this great
Nation, thank you for your service. I very much appreciate it.
And I am especially grateful to have the opportunity today to
talk about threats to our democracy, especially from China and
our foreign adversaries, because these threats to our democracy
and global and domestic security are very real. And America
needs to wake up, because if we do not take action in this
chamber, the threats to global and domestic security will have
significant and devastating impacts for the United States. And
the single largest threat at this very moment, right now, is
Members across the aisle this week who are holding up a foreign
aid package to Ukraine and Taiwan. Because let me be clear, if
we do not support our allies in Europe and in the Pacific, we
could be on the verge of a major war in which American service
members would be deployed, so we have to get this foreign aid
package.
Now, I want to be clear about the threats of the Chinese
Government as its currently configured. As a member of the
Indo-Pacific Task Force, which is a bipartisan task force, I
personally traveled to meet with our allies in the Pacific this
summer, and I want to tell all of you that the threat is real.
Our allies, who thousands of Americans fought for and died for
in World War II, are afraid of the Chinese Government and the
economic and military threat that they pose to their
democracies. They are our allies. They are who is helping to
uphold democracy in the Pacific. And if we do not take the
moment and seize the moment right now to ensure that we are
supporting our allies like Taiwan, it could be devastating for
peace in the Pacific.
In fact, one of my staff who traveled to Taiwan, similar to
Representative Krishnamoorthi, just a few months ago, heard
directly from civil society organizations in Taiwan, who said
in the wake of the invasion by Putin in Ukraine, they had begun
doing drills in case of a Chinese invasion in Taiwan. The
Chinese are watching what we do right now, and our first and
best defense is to support our allies and to root out any
activity here in the United States that is undermining our
ability to respond to this threat.
So, while I appreciate that my friends across the aisle are
trying to divert from a very real threat, the reality is that
we have Members, including Members who are sitting here in this
room today, that are repeating Russian and Chinese
disinformation that has been planted in the U.S. media and
milieu to undermine our action against our adversaries. In
fact, the Republican Chairman of the Foreign Affairs Committee,
called it out just the last few weeks. He said that members of
his own party are repeating disinformation that is undermining
action on Ukraine and on U.S. military support to our allies.
He said it infected his party. It was being repeated on the
Floor of the House.
[Chart.]
We have seen examples of this, in fact, in both chambers.
We have Members of both chambers who have been repeating
Russian disinformation, as you can see here. And in this very
Committee, we spent months holding a fake impeachment
proceeding based on Russian disinformation that had been
planted in the media by a Russian agent. Members in this
Committee were repeating that information. So, if we want to
rule out threats to American democracy to global security, we
have to wake up.
Now, Dr. Snyder, you are a historian. I am grateful that
you are here. Please help us understand the significance of
this moment. I am struck, as we are facing, as the leader of
the Democratic Party has said, a Churchill versus Chamberlain
like moment. If we do not act on Ukraine, we could see global
threats to our peace and democracy.
Dr. Snyder. No. 1 and most narrowly, it is impossible to
disentangle Chinese and Russian propaganda when Chinese
channels transmit Russian memes. No. 2, slightly more broadly,
the way political warfare works is that things that start in
China or Russia end up in our minds and then coming out of our
mouths. That is what political warfare is precisely. And then
No. 3, that the direct connection between Ukraine and China,
which everyone in Taiwan understands and repeats, is that
insofar as they resist successfully, the Ukrainians are
deterring Chinese offensive operations in the Pacific. And they
are deterring them in a way that we cannot deter because
nothing Ukraine does can possibly be understood as provocative
by Beijing. They have a power which we do not have, which is to
make a war in the Pacific much less likely. If you let the
Ukrainians go, we lose many, many things, but also we lose
that.
Ms. Stansbury. Thank you, and, Mr. Chairman, I just want to
say, history is watching.
Chairman Comer. Yes, I agree. The Chair now recognizes Mr.
Burlison from Missouri.
Mr. Burlison. Mr. Chairman, Avril Haines, the Director of
National Intelligence, had a statement recently, said, ``the
CCP presents both the leading and most consequential threat to
U.S. national security and leadership globally, and its
intelligence-specific ambitions and capabilities make it, for
us, our most serious and consequential intelligence rival.''
That being said--this is question for you, Mr. Mattis--I was
shocked to hear about a program that the CCP uses with the
united front to target and control Chinese Americans and the
Chinese diaspora in the United States. What is their goal?
Mr. Mattis. The goal in representing or having control over
those kinds of community organizations, in part, has to do with
using their voices, hijacking their voices, if you will, to
represent them to their congressional Members and to their
political leaders, right? Because you cannot possibly meet with
every single constituent and solicit their opinion and engage
in a conversation. You have to deal with groups of all kinds,
right, whether they are through unions, through voluntary
associations. And, therefore, you can have an organization of
entirely patriotic Americans with one bad apple in the
leadership position, who by virtue of that position can now
misrepresent.
Mr. Burlison. Is the voice for that group.
Mr. Mattis. And the other thing is that when those groups
meet with politicians and that image is often transmitted back
into the PRC, Chinese people recognize what those groups are.
And that is a message from the CCP to the Chinese people, that
not only are we in control here, but there.
Mr. Burlison. But we are truly there.
Mr. Mattis. And you will not get rescued from that.
Mr. Burlison. And that being said, since 2014, the CCP has
overseen an extralegal operation for repatriation, called
Operation Fox Hunt. They use Operation Fox Hunt to harass and
stalk Chinese Americans and the Chinese diaspora. Could you
describe this campaign, and would you consider it political
warfare?
Mr. Mattis. I am not sure if I would consider it political
warfare, but I would consider it a violation of U.S.
sovereignty by a foreign power, right? They are conducting
operations on our soil that are affecting American citizens.
They are deliberately avoiding any judicial channels for
dealing with a law enforcement matter. And they say that it is
under the guise of anticorruption, and, indeed, some of it may
be a corrupt official, but as we have seen from Xi Jinping's
campaign internally, some of the people that are targeted are
very clearly targeted for their political reasons, and
corruption is simply an excuse.
Mr. Burlison. Yes. So, what are the methods or tactics that
they are using? I have heard that they have organized policing
groups that are located in the United States.
Mr. Mattis. Yes, and those groups have been used to hire
sort of private investigators to sort of pursue and look. In
some cases where there are direct confrontations with the
victim to be repatriated back to the PRC, they are showing,
say, pictures of family members or calling family members in
the PRC to demonstrate that, look, if you are not on a plane
back, then this will be the last you see them.
Mr. Burlison. OK. So, they are threatening the family
members that are still in China----
Mr. Mattis. Yes.
Mr. Burlison [continuing]. And saying, if you do not
repatriate back or, you know, come to heal.
Mr. Mattis. If you are not back in the PRC in X amount of
time then, you know, this will be the end for them.
Mr. Burlison. Just this year, the Operation Fox Hunt's top
official met with the Deputy Secretary Advisor, Jon Finer, and
Secretary of State, Antony Blinken. Could you explain how this
might represent elite capture?
Mr. Mattis. OK. I do not think that something like that
kind of meaning would represent elite capture. If you are
trying to get particular messages into the system, if you are
trying to tell the PRC what is acceptable or not, you are going
to have to deal with those security authorities, and you are
going to have to depress the message.
Mr. Burlison. But you think that there is a risk for U.S.
officials who are meeting with CCP officials that are in charge
of these repatriation efforts? Obviously, they are seeking out
these meetings.
Mr. Mattis. Again, if you are trying to have any impact on
the Ministry of Public Security or the Ministry of State
Security, you cannot meet with the Ministry of Foreign Affairs,
so you will have to meet with them. That is simply the nature
of dealing with those governments.
Mr. Burlison. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman Comer. The Chair now recognizes Mr. Raskin.
Mr. Raskin. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Professor Snyder, what
role does political and financial corruption play in the
authoritarian regimes, like China and Russia?
Dr. Snyder. It always plays a very fundamental role, as we
discussed before, in recruitment, but it also plays an
ideological role. Since the basic argument is that democracies
are just hypocrisy, everyone is basically corrupt, only money
matters, corruption is used not just as a way to bring in
individuals, but it is also used as a way to discredit the
entire system.
Mr. Raskin. And internally, those regimes are based on
corruption.
Dr. Snyder. And so, the point externally is to normalize
that. Back in the 20th century, we had rivals that had other
visions of the future. Now we do not. Now we have rivals, and
this pertains both to China and Russia, whose main message is
that our system is not what it seems to be. There are really no
alternatives to just autocratic regimes where only money and
power count.
Mr. Raskin. One of our colleagues chided our side of the
aisle for raising Donald Trump's name. I think that was
presumably directed at Representative Norton, who discussed the
millions of dollars that Donald Trump pocketed in unlawful
foreign government emoluments from the Chinese Government and
from the state-owned ICBC bank while he was President. Is
corruption in America irrelevant to our ability to withstand
foreign propaganda by authoritarian regimes, like China and
Russia?
Dr. Snyder. Of course it is not irrelevant. It is very
relevant. The way that any kind of political warfare proceeds
is by these sorts of connections, a message becomes more
plausible because a person is a bit more corrupt. A person is a
bit more corrupt, the message becomes a bit more plausible.
Anyone who is serious about political warfare would be very
attentive to these underlying financial issues, of course.
Mr. Raskin. One of our colleagues mentioned an effort that
is underway to stop U.S. Government agencies from blowing the
whistle on Chinese and Russian propaganda on social media.
There are some people who say that it violates the First
Amendment if our agencies say there is Chinese propaganda on
your website, there is Russian propaganda on your website, but
what do you think about that? Do you think that in a free
society, the government should be able at least to alert the
social media or private internet service providers about the
existence of foreign government propaganda on their vehicles?
Dr. Snyder. Colleagues in different ways have already
raised the point that TikTok is not the only problem. The
problem is the way that social media is designed as such.
Democracies tend to work better when institutions are set up in
such a way that factuality has an advantage over propaganda.
Unfortunately, social media is set up in a different way. It
gives a financial advantage for advertisers to attention
seeking and therefore, to shocking propaganda. We know that
this can be mediated because when attempts have been made,
either by corporations themselves in cooperation or by the
government, we have been able to dramatically reduce hostile
state-sponsored propaganda.
What we face now in 2024 is a major corporation, Twitter,
which has chosen not to police itself even as much as the other
platforms do, and, therefore, we face a situation in which
states are taking advantage of this sort of chaos. Hostile
actors take advantage of this chaos to change the information
environment. This is, par excellence, an example of
psychological warfare, and it would be foolish if the U.S.
Government did not allow itself to draw attention to it.
Mr. Raskin. I wonder if you can help us figure out where we
have come as a Committee, Professor Snyder. About a year ago,
our GOP colleagues began heralding an FBI Form FD-1023 that
recorded allegations that President Biden acted corruptly in
Ukraine and tried to promote these as credible allegations. It
turned out that these were lies, and the person who was
promoting them has been indicted for lying to the FBI and
constructing a false record. It turns out that he was up to his
neck in connections to Russian foreign agents, and yet, our
colleagues at various points called this a smoking gun, said it
showed proof that the Bidens took bribes and so on. Chairman
Jason Smith, for example, said this was a smoking gun and it
was the definitive proof that the Bidens took bribes. It
obviously has been dropped, and yet, this was the genesis of
our investigation. How do we understand----
Chairman Comer. That is just simply not true, but go ahead
and finish your story.
Mr. Raskin. I will yield to the Chairman if you want to
take some more time.
Chairman Comer. No, no, no, no.
Mr. Raskin. Well, you can use your time----
Chairman Comer. Are you saying the bank statement is a
Russian disinformation that the Bidens took $9,000 from China?
Mr. Raskin. I agree that you have been talking about bank
statements for more than a year, but they do not show anything
other than there was no crime.
Chairman Comer. So, it is OK, as Tony Bobulinski said, for
China to bribe Joe Biden's family with $9 million?
Mr. Raskin. But that is the lie that has been discredited.
I mean, where is your impeachment investigation? If Joe Biden
took a $9 million bribe from China, why aren't you impeaching
him for that?
Chairman Comer. Well, who says we are not?
Mr. Raskin. Well, I can invite Mr. Moskowitz to come back
in. Do you want to move for impeachment today because I thought
that that was your main agenda item. You said it was the
paramount priority of the Committee.
Chairman Comer. No, this is a hearing on China, and you all
have an obsession with Russia and Trump. It is disturbing. You
need therapy.
Mr. Raskin. We can talk about China and Trump or Russia and
Trump.
Chairman Comer. You all need therapy, Mr. Raskin.
Mr. Raskin. No, no. You need therapy. You are the one who
is involved with the deranged politician, not me, OK? I have
divorced myself from Donald Trump a long time ago. You are the
one who needs to disentangle from that situation. And I will
tell you this, if you believe that it would have been illegal
for Joe Biden to take $5 million from Ukraine--it certainly
would have been--what do you think about Donald Trump taking
more than $5 million from the Chinese Government while he was
President?
Chairman Comer. Well, we know that Donald Trump had a
legitimate business that he talked about, and he campaigned
about.
Mr. Raskin. The legitimate business was the White House. He
sold the White House.
Chairman Comer. Oh, give me a break. What business were the
Bidens in? What business did Joe Biden's family own? What
business were they in? Did they have hotels? Did they have a
social media company? Did they have golf courses? Do they have
casinos? Did they have office buildings?
Mr. Raskin. Mr. Chairman?
Chairman Comer. What business? Did they have an energy
company?
Mr. Raskin. Mr. Chairman, we have spent tens of millions of
dollars on you pursuing Joe Biden and you have not identified a
single crime.
Chairman Comer. That is not true. That is a lie. You are
lying.
Mr. Raskin. Oh, really?
Chairman Comer. We have not spent $10 million.
Mr. Raskin. How much have you spent?
Chairman Comer. We have not spent hardly anything.
Mr. Raskin. It has been for free? OK. All right. Well, in
any event, you know what? Then we get what we paid for because
you got nothing. You got nothing on Joe Biden.
Chairman Comer. No, no, no. Answer this question. Answer
this question. What did the Bidens do? What business were they
in? Why did they get millions and millions of dollars?
Mr. Goldman. Can I answer that?
Mr. Raskin. No, I would like to ask you a question.
Mr. Goldman. Can I answer what they did?
Chairman Comer. No, you stop. What did the Bidens do? What
business were they in?
Mr. Raskin. I do not know what you are talking about. Well,
what business are the Comers in? You are talking about lots of
people. There are lots of people in the family.
Chairman Comer. I am a farmer. I have land. I lease land. I
sell honey.
Mr. Raskin. Your impeachment investigation must identify a
high crime and misdemeanor.
Chairman Comer. What did the Bidens do? What did they do
for the million dollars?
Mr. Raskin. I will tell you what Joe Biden did. He was a
senator of the United States. Then he wrote a book and he said
he made the most money ever made in his life, millions of
dollars on his book, and he gave a million dollars in
inheritance.
Chairman Comer. That is what his family did? That is why
Ukraine, Kazakhstan, Romania, China, Russia, that is why they
paid the Biden family money because of Joe Biden's book?
Mr. Goldman. None of those governments paid anyone any
money.
Mr. Raskin. Somebody needs therapy here, but it is nobody
on our side of the aisle, OK?
Chairman Comer. Alright, alright, enough.
Mr. Raskin. No, I honestly----
Chairman Comer. Back to the hearing. Back to the China
hearing. Order. Order.
Mr. Raskin. You had your chance. I would like my time
restored.
Chairman Comer. Well, no, your time was expired.
Mr. Raskin. No, you interrupted me. I want my time
restored.
Chairman Comer. No, you had your time. You went above, and
I let Ms. Norton go a minute----
Mr. Raskin. You know what?
Chairman Comer. Sit down. Everybody come back. This is
about China. We asked a simple question now. Ms. Pressley, you
are out of order. Sit down.
Mr. Burchett. Mr. Chairman, Mr. Chairman, Mr. Chairman?
Chairman Comer. Mr. Burchett.
Mr. Burchett. Mr. Chairman, can I make a motion that we
take a break for 5 minutes?
Chairman Comer. We are going to keep going. We will let the
record show that Mr. Raskin could not answer the question on
what did the Bidens do to receive the money.
Mr. Raskin. Let me start with this. My last name is Raskin,
OK? We have sat next to each other for more than a year. You do
not have to add the ``s''. No. 2, I would like my time
restored, and No. 3----
Chairman Comer. No, you had your time. You are out of order
now.
Mr. Raskin [continuing]. You have not identified a single
crime, but what is the crime that you want to impeach Joe Biden
for and keep this nonsense going? Why? What is the crime? Tell
America right now. You have wrecked my time.
Chairman Comer. Well, you are about to find out very soon.
Mr. Raskin. What is the crime?
Chairman Comer. You are about to find out very soon.
Mr. Raskin. Name it.
Chairman Comer. The Chair now recognizes Mr. Biggs from
Arizona.
Mr. Biggs. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you,
Mr. Chairman, and, Colonel Newsham, Yokoso. We could talk in
Japanese for a few minutes, but that might take us further
anyway, but glad to have you here. Welcome, everyone here. I am
going to focus on China. Mr. Mattis, question for you first.
Has Chinese propaganda penetrated into the United States of
America?
Mr. Mattis. I think you can safely say that it has, but I
think the point of my testimony was to point out that this is
more than just narratives, that we should be concerned with the
actions that result.
Mr. Biggs. Right. I am going to get into that, but I am
talking just initially about propaganda that has penetrated as
well, right? I mean----
Mr. Mattis. The message has certainly reached, so yes.
Mr. Biggs. OK. And then I will go to Colonel Newsham. My
questions for you is, you mentioned in your written testimony
hacking of U.S. military technology. Have we covered that
today?
Colonel Newsham. Not yet, sir, but a couple examples I used
were the hacking of the, basically, the plans for the C-17
transport, the F-35 fighter, and the Chinese have built a
couple of things that look an awful lot like those.
Mr. Biggs. And do we have evidence that how they were able
to hack that technology, acquire that technology?
Colonel Newsham. I believe there is a pretty good
understanding of that. It was partly human access that allowed
them to get the computer access, but also, they have computer
hackers on a scale you can hardly imagine. They have got plenty
of resources to devote to it.
Mr. Biggs. And then this will be for you, Colonel Newsham,
and, Mr. Mattis, maybe this is what you wanted to get at, too.
In your written testimony, Colonel Newsham, you mentioned
physical penetration or infiltration, and, in particular, you
point to what I would call South China Sea assets that China is
trying to acquire in relationship to actually U.S. assets there
like the Northern Mariana Islands, et cetera. Do you want to
take just a few seconds and expand on that?
Colonel Newsham. Sure. Just regarding the South China Sea,
the Chinese had de facto control of that, at least 7 or 8 years
ago, long before Ukraine ever came along. They are now going
after American territories and parts of America in Commonwealth
of Northern Marianas and in Guam. Coming through the borders in
CNMI's case, it is with the approval of our own Department of
Homeland Security, which gives visa-free access. Once they are
in, they are causing all sorts of trouble. They have picked up
Chinese around wandering through the jungles around U.S. bases
in Guam as well.
Mr. Biggs. And that gets me to something that General
Spalding wrote in his written testimony where you said, ``The
relaxation of our security posture concerning active measures
conducted by adversaries like China, Russia, North Korea, and
Iran has left American institutions, like those of its allies
and the entire international order, vulnerable to relentless
and ongoing political influence campaigns.'' Do you want to
elaborate on that in connection with what we have been talking
about with the physical infiltration or the propaganda
infiltration as well?
Dr. Spalding. Well, one of the ways that that happens is
because we relaxed COCOM. So COCOM prevented both us and our
allies from trading with the Soviet Union, and through that
trade, through that financial and economic relationship is
their biggest lever for political influence within the United
States and its allies and the international system.
Mr. Biggs. Thank you, General. And I would just say before
we go further, I did read one of your books, General Spalding,
and actually one of Dr. Snyder's books on tyranny, so I have
some familiarity. If the other two have written books, I have
not read those books yet. I will try to track those down as
well. And then, I want to get back to you, Mr. Mattis, one of
the things you were talking about. You wanted to talk more than
the psychological or the infiltration or penetrations of
psychology by China, so.
Mr. Mattis. So, for example, in technology transfer, it is
not simply computer network exploitation of companies or labs,
but you see united front organizations sort of building a sort
of, I guess you could call it, a fake community organization,
the United States for Chinese and Science and Technology. And
those organizations or, in some cases, the organizations back
in the PRC, have memorandums of understanding with U.S.
professional organizations. And those associations basically
work with the talent programs to identify potential Americans
that should be brought over to the PRC to contribute their
knowledge and expertise. And I think we sometimes think of this
too narrowly as a classified issue or that we say that all
science is published when those soft skills of managing a lab,
the experience of failed experiments, are all valuable pieces
of knowledge and wisdom that are beneficial to running large
labs.
Mr. Biggs. Thank you. Mr. Chairman, my time is expired, but
I do have a couple of items I would like to submit for the
record and just say that 25 years ago when I was working in
graduate work in Northeast Asian security, China was a huge
issue even then for very different reasons, but they had
hegemonic ambitions at that time. And if you go back, you will
see that they had hegemonic ambitions literally forever in
China.
So, I would submit a couple of things for the record, Mr.
Chairman. One of them is the testimony that was submitted to
the U.S. Senate before the Emerging Threats and Spinning
Oversight Subcommittee on the Committee on Homeland Security
and Governmental Affairs, entitled, ``Strengthening
International Cooperation to Stop The Flow of Fentanyl Into the
United States,'' of March 20, 2024.
Chairman Comer. Without objection, so ordered.
Mr. Biggs. And another piece, rather old, the title is
offensive, but it was a book review of one of Mr. Snyder's
books from September 9, 2014, called, ``Timothy Snyder's
Lies,'' by Daniel Lazare.
Chairman Comer. Without objection, so ordered.
Mr. Biggs. I yield. Thank you.
Chairman Comer. The gentleman's time is expired. The Chair
now recognizes Mr. Garcia from California.
Mr. Gracia. Thank you. It has been a wild hearing so far. I
know that the Majority is very interested in looking into
China. I think we should definitely look into the influence
China plays in our politics, and I just want to start by
reminding us of this man.
[Chart]
And I am sure that our Chairman and my Republican
colleagues will recognize this gentleman over here, which, of
course, is Gal Luft. We know that a Chinese spy, Gal Luft,
infiltrated this Committee's sham impeachment inquiry against
President Biden with false allegations. Now, according to this
Federal indictment, Gal paid a former U.S. Government official,
who was a Donald Trump advisor, to ``publicly support certain
policies favorable to China.'' He also sold Chinese arms around
the world. Now, our Chairman who wanted this gentleman to be a
witness called him ``a very credible witness''--this is a
Chinese spy we are talking about--just because Gal Luft was
willing to help Republicans smear the President.
So, when we are talking about China's influence, it starts
with the House Majority, our Chairman, wanting to have a
witness, this man, who actually was a Chinese spy. So, it is
completely ridiculous for Republicans to claim to get tough on
China while they are working with literal Chinese agents to
spread misinformation. It goes to show you what a joke this is.
Now, this is not, of course, the only example of the Majority's
hypocrisy----
Chairman Comer. Will the gentleman yield to a question?
Mr. Garcia. I am going to keep going, sir, because we know
that one of the most important tools to stop hostile foreign
influence in our government is the Constitution. Now, Professor
Snyder, what role does the Emoluments Clause of the
Constitution play in protecting against foreign influence?
Dr. Snyder. Since it seems to be the rule here that people
jump around a bit, I am just going to respond to the absent
questioner.
Mr. Garcia. Actually, sir, I need you to respond to just--
--
Dr. Snyder. I will, I will, I will, trust me. But the item
that was entered into the record regarding me, when Members
read it, they will find that it is the ``Stalinist Objection to
Timothy Snyder'' that they have entered into the record. That
book review is from the point of view of someone defending the
one-party Leninist state, which colleagues and I believe is the
problem.
Mr. Garcia. Thank you, sir. Thank you.
Dr. Snyder. Yes. The Emoluments Clause is a fundamental
example of the wisdom of the founders in recognizing the
possibility of financial corruption in the head of state.
Mr. Garcia. Thank you, and the Emoluments Clause is really
important. We know that foreign influence on a President is
clearly a serious threat, and the evidence is clear. As our
Ranking Member mentioned, we have actually evidence that China
funneled cash to Donald Trump through his businesses while he
was President. That is illegal, and it threatens national
security. The Trump International Hotel; more stays at the
hotel in Vegas; Trump Tower, over $5.5 million dollars. The
People's Republic of China, including state-owned enterprises,
made unconstitutional payments in excess of $5.5 to the Trump
organization, and those millions into Donald Trump's pockets
are just a small sample of the total payments we received. And
as a reminder, our Chairman actually cutoff the investigation
into Trump's business activities, so we only have documentation
for about 2 years.
Now, just months ago, the Republicans blocked my motion to
subpoena Donald Trump's accountants for the records on this
cover-up, which is an absolute crime, and in 2016, Trump said,
``I love China.'' The biggest bank in the world is from China.
The Department of Justice found that that same bank was being
used as a front to funnel money into North Korea.
I also want to talk about, it is not just about China, of
course. We can document illegal money going into Trump's
businesses while he was President from multiple companies, from
multiple countries and companies. We know from China, $5.5
million, Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Kuwait, from all of these
countries, there was illegal foreign payments made violating
the Emoluments Clause, and this is only a small sample. We also
know that this is a barter part of the grift that the Trump
family is doing on the American people.
We know that Donald Trump, for example, gave his son-in-
law, Jared Kushner, a job at the White House. We know that his
son put together a $110 billion dollar arms deal with the Saudi
Government. We know that Jared Kushner received a $2 billion
investment fund from the Saudi Government after just a month
after leaving the White House. So, there is a lot of corruption
that we can talk about, and even though Chairman Comer wants to
invite spies that are working with China, does not want to
investigate the payments that Trump is receiving from foreign
governments, these are things that must be talked about and
investigated.
Professor Snyder, is it acceptable for a former U.S.
official to get $2 billion from a foreign investment fund right
after leaving office?
Dr. Snyder. That is totally unacceptable.
Mr. Garcia. Thank you, and that is exactly what the Trump
family is doing, continues to do, and they continue to put this
huge grift on the American people. Mr. Comer, would you like to
ask me a question?
Chairman Comer. Yes. Are you aware that Gal Luft was
charged by the Department of Justice for violating the Foreign
Agents Registration Act because of the money he took from CEFC
which is the exact same company that paid the Bidens millions
of dollars? The same company that Tony Bobulinski testified
that Joe Biden was the ``big guy'' in a deal with?
Mr. Garcia. Chairman Comer, are you aware that you called
him a very credible witness, yet he is a Chinese spy?
Chairman Comer. Well, then Hunter Biden and Joe, are they
Chinese spies?
Mr. Garcia. Sir, sir, you called Gal Luft a very credible
witness who happened to be Chinese spy.
Chairman Comer. He is a credible witness because he worked
for the same company that Hunter Biden and Joe Biden got paid
for.
Mr. Garcia. For the record----
Chairman Comer. And Jim Biden.
Mr. Garcia. For the record, our Chairman is saying----
Chairman Comer. It is the same deal.
Mr. Gracia [continuing]. That a Chinese spy working for the
Chinese Government----
Chairman Comer. Well, he is----
Mr. Garcia [continuing]. Against the United States of
America is a very credible witness. I yield back.
Chairman Comer. He is credible because he got paid by the
same company the Bidens got paid for, the same thing.
Mr. Raskin. The same company that gave millions of dollars
to Donald Trump when he was President?
Chairman Comer. No, it is the same company that paid the
Bidens billions of dollars. For what business was it again, Mr.
Raskin? What business were the Bidens in? I forgot what you
said.
Mr. Goldman. Can you stop saying the Bidens? Who paid
Hunter Biden?
Mr. Raskin. Jim Biden was a businessman.
Chairman Comer. No, no, no.
Mr. Raskin. Joe Biden is a public servant.
Chairman Comer. The Chair now recognizes Mr. Fallon from
Texas.
Mr. Fallon. Mr. Chairman, thank you. You know, I woke up
this morning and I was reviewing my notes, and how naive am I
that I thought that this hearing could actually be bipartisan
when we are talking about threats that the Chinese Communist
Party presents to the United States of America? Wow. Well, I do
not care if you are a Democrat or Republican. We live in this
country, and this country is threatened by the Chinese
Communist Party. So, no doubt there are a great many threats.
There is a multitude facing our country. It is our job in
Congress to determine the greatest threats to our United States
national security and our future prosperity. And then, to
address them, we have to prioritize them, what are the most
dire threats, and then let us work to either eliminate them or
mitigate them to a significant degree. In my humble opinion, it
is rather obvious what the greatest threats are. One, it is our
deficit spending and our accumulated debt, and two is the
Chinese Communist Party.
But this is not a hearing, Mr. Chairman, on the deficit or
the debt. It is not a hearing on Russia. It is a hearing on the
Chinese Communist Party. I am not here to talk about Joe Biden
today. I am here to talk about the Chinese Communist Party, and
it is sad when you hear these buzzwords from the Ranking Member
and other Democrats. They say ``Russia,'' ``Ukraine,''
``Nazis,'' MAGA,'' ``collusion,'' ``Russian hoax.'' When the
Mueller investigation found that there was no collusion, it
truly was a Russian hoax, reality proves quite the opposite.
Professor Snyder, what new territory of another nation-
state did Vladimir Putin violate in 2008?
Dr. Snyder. Georgia.
Mr. Fallon. And who was President in 2008?
Dr. Snyder. President of the Russian----
Mr. Fallon. Of the United States of America.
Dr. Snyder [continuing]. Federation was Vladimir Putin.
Mr. Fallon. Of the United States of America.
Dr. Snyder. Obama.
Mr. Fallon. In 2014, what new territory of another nation-
state did Vladimir Putin violate?
Dr. Snyder. Ukraine.
Mr. Fallon. Ukraine, Crimea and Eastern Ukraine, correct?
Dr. Snyder. That is correct.
Mr. Fallon. And who was the President then?
Dr. Snyder. Obama.
Mr. Fallon. OK. In 2022, what new territory of another
nation state did Vladimir Putin violate?
Dr. Snyder. Ukraine.
Mr. Fallon. Full-scale invasion trying to grab Kyiv,
correct?
Dr. Snyder. Correct.
Mr. Fallon. And who was President then?
Dr. Snyder. Biden.
Mr. Fallon. Joe Biden. From January 2017 to January 2021,
what new territory of another nation-state did Vladimir Putin
violate?
Dr. Snyder. There were no military invasions.
Mr. Fallon. There were no new territories violated by
Vladimir Putin. You are correct.
Dr. Snyder. Yes, although----
Mr. Fallon. And who was President then?
Dr. Snyder. Of the Russian Federation?
Mr. Fallon. The United States of America from January 2017
to January 2021.
Dr. Snyder. You are repeating the question. It was Joe
Biden.
Mr. Fallon. No. From 2017 to 2021, who was the President of
United States?
Dr. Snyder. I am sorry, Donald Trump.
Mr. Fallon. Donald J. Trump.
Dr. Snyder. That is right.
Mr. Fallon. So, reality shows us that there was only one
U.S. President in the last 3 or 4, rather, that could either
control or contain Vladimir Putin, and that was Donald J.
Trump. So, that could be possibly an inconvenient truth to our
friends across the aisle, but nonetheless, it is the truth.
General Spalding, who has a greater GDP, China or Russia?
Dr. Spalding. China.
Mr. Fallon. China. In fact, it is about, almost 10 times as
much. And Colonel Newsham, who has a greater population, China
or Russia?
Colonel Newsham. China.
Mr. Fallon. China by about 10 times. So, who is the greater
threat? It is rather obvious it is China, or as President Trump
would say, ``China.'' General Spalding, has the United States'
intelligence community accurately identified the threat that
the CCP presents?
Dr. Spalding. No, and I believe that is a direct result of
the influence within Washington, DC, particularly on think
tanks.
Mr. Fallon. In what ways has the intelligence community
failed to address the CCP threat?
Dr. Spalding. When I started, you know, working with the
Defense Intelligence Agency, they were primarily focused on the
military threat coming from China. They were not focused on the
economic threat, the financial threat, the academic threat, the
political threat that we are talking about here.
Mr. Fallon. So, for instance, just a few years ago, before
Joe Biden took office, there were about less than 500 Chinese
nationals that were apprehended on the Southern border. And
then, the last year we have data for, last fiscal year, it was
nearing 50,000. Do you find that alarming?
Dr. Spalding. Terrifying.
Mr. Fallon. Do you think every one of those folks is just
looking for a better life, or are there some sleeper agents
looking to do us harm if we ever gotten to a hot war with
China?
Dr. Spalding. I think both of those situations exist, but I
also think that the Chinese Communist Party is opportunistic,
and it has conditioned the Chinese citizens to believe that
they must do what the Chinese Communist Party asks. So, every
Chinese citizen that comes into the country, by law, is a
Chinese agent of the Chinese Communist Party.
Mr. Fallon. And even if 99 percent of them are just looking
for a better life, it is terrifying to know that there are 500
new potential threats in this country in an open society.
Dr. Spalding. Well, Li Yuan, who is a journalist for the
New York Times, talks about the deprogramming she herself had
to go through when she came to the United States and started
recognizing the signs of having been programmed. And I think if
you are going to have those types of people come into the
country, then they have to go through some similar
deprogramming process because if you live in China, like I
have, you see that the entire population has been programmed
through propaganda over the last decades, certainly since
Tiananmen Square.
Mr. Fallon. Chairman, thank you. I yield back.
Chairman Comer. The gentleman yields back. The Chair now
recognizes Ms. Lee from Pennsylvania.
Ms. Lee. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Earlier this month, the
Institute for Strategic Dialogue, an independent nonprofit team
of disinformation researchers, reported its evidence of the
Chinese Communist Party's evolution and influence operations.
Their research showed how the CCP has begun using Russia and
Putin's propaganda playbook. Here is a perfect example. RT,
Russian propaganda outlet puts out a lie. That lie is picked up
and amplified by a CCP disinformation operation posing as a
Trump supporter, and then, Alex Jones, a star of MAGA world,
echoed and amplified the line to his millions of followers.
Professor Snyder, are you aware of the CCP adopting Russia's
propaganda playbook and even working hand-in-hand with Russia
to push out disinformation?
Dr. Snyder. Yes, very much so, at many levels.
Ms. Lee. Thank you. Understanding the threats posed by the
CCP requires understanding the context, and where
disinformation is concerned, that means examining Russia's
playbook.
Professor Snyder, in an interview with PBS Frontline
Program in September 2022, you said, ``So what the Russians
became very effective at doing by way of their international
propaganda, then later by interfering in elections, is messing
things up, taking the worst of other societies and bringing the
worst tendencies to the fore, finding by digital means and
otherwise our weaknesses and making those weaknesses greater
and greater.'' Professor Snyder, have you observed Russia using
this playbook against the United States?
Dr. Snyder. That is the Russian playbook, and
interestingly, I believe it is also a scholarly consensus that
Chinese information operations are moving in that direction.
There is a good empirical evidence since 2023 that precisely
what China is trying to do on social media is what Russia did
in previous elections, namely disrupt and favor the candidate
they regard as most disruptive.
Ms. Lee. Thank you for sharing that. There have been
numerous official warnings not only that Russia has worked to
interfere in U.S. elections, but that it did so specifically to
boost Donald Trump's candidacy. The Mueller report warned that
Russia interfered in the 2016 Presidential election and did so
to support Donald Trump's candidacy.
On March 10, 2021, the National Intelligence Council issued
a declassified intelligence assessment regarding Russia's
efforts to interfere in the 2020 U.S. Presidential election,
and said, ``We assessed that Russian President Putin authorized
and a range of Russian Government organizations conducted
influence operations aimed at denigrating President Biden's
candidacy and the Democratic Party, supporting former President
Trump, undermining public confidence in the electoral process,
and exacerbating socio-political divisions in the U.S.''
Professor Snyder, why has Vladimir Putin sought to boost Donald
Trump's candidacy, and to be clear, have Vladimir Putin's
reasons for boosting Trump's candidacy changed over the years?
Dr. Snyder. This is why it is so important the discussion
is framed in terms of political warfare because political
warfare, by definition, involves someone else trying to get you
to do something that you probably ought not to do. It is not
personal, and no one should take it personally. It is the
judgment of the Russian state that Donald Trump is the more
disruptive candidate and the one most likely to make the United
States more like Russia and more accommodating to Russia.
Ms. Lee. Professor Snyder, do you believe Russia is seeking
to interfere in the upcoming elections in 2024?
Dr. Snyder. Of course.
Ms. Lee. Finally, Professor Snyder, you recently wrote
``Trump presents himself as an admirer of Putin and had been
his client in one form or another for a decade. He has
succeeded in conditioning the media by teaching his followers
to shout, 'Russia hoax,' whenever the subject comes up, but all
the same, Russia has backed him in every campaign, and it is
backing him in this one.'' Professor Snyder, what are the
consequences for our democracy if Donald Trump and his allies
in Congress continue to shout 'Russia hoax' even as they echo
and amplify Russian propaganda and disinformation?
Dr. Snyder. If we have a hearing on political warfare, then
we must be concerned with political warfare, which includes
Chinese operations, Russian operations, and operations where
the two come together. What is interesting about 2024 is that
China is using memes that it gets from Russia and methods which
are very similar to Russian.
The thing that one has to worry about is the American part,
right? It is not political warfare unless there is an American
part in it. Unless our minds and our mouths move, it is not
political warfare. And so, if our minds and our mouths are
replicating things that come from China or from Russia, then we
are probably doing things which are not in our interest. To
repeat, that is the essence of political warfare, which is
meant to be our subject today.
Ms. Lee. Thank you. While the Stop the Steal MAGA party
claim to love America and democracy so much, they have shown
they are willing to undermine it every step of the way, even by
courting our adversaries to ensure their permanent role. I
yield back.
Chairman Comer. The Chair now recognizes Mr. Timmons from
South Carolina.
Mr. Timmons. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. General Spalding, I
am going to be directing all my questions at you. You are very
familiar with Huawei and their attempt to use 5G technology to
essentially infiltrate the technology infrastructure of
developing countries and developed countries alike. And in,
really, 2018, 2019, as this was really becoming more of an
issue, the FBI was very reluctantly transparent to show the
world that Huawei is not secure. They are basically creating a
backdoor. Their servers are compromised, and the Chinese
Communist Party has access to all of the data, thereby
compromising the privacy and cybersecurity of any country that
has Huawei 5G. And I actually sponsored a bill last Congress,
H.R. 4493, the Promoting Secure 5G Act of 2021. And what that
bill does is it tells countries that if they want to borrow
money from international monetary institutions, they are going
to have to have secure 5G. It essentially cuts off funding for
them to implement unsecure 5G.
And so, the Chinese in response to this, in response to the
FBI essentially outing them to the world that Huawei is
insecure and that they are using their servers, and there is no
data security and no data privacy, changed course. So, they
literally had to completely change course. They had to get
third party groups to come in and try to vouch for them and
allege that they are actually secure.
And so, again, as we talk about how we are going to hold
China accountable, I think Huawei is a perfect example because
they were engaging in the global economy in bad faith. They
were doing things that they were not supposed to do. And the
United States can say all we want, but we are only a small
portion of the global economy, so when we tell our allies that
this is a problem and why, and then our allies reverse course.
You know, India, Israel, bunch of European countries have
essentially banned Huawei because it is not secure. Are you
familiar with all of this?
Dr. Spalding. Very familiar.
Mr. Timmons. And do you agree that by leading a coalition
of partners to hold the Chinese accountable, it is a model that
we are able to use to change their behavior, because, again,
look, China has an enormous population. They have enormous
natural resources. They are going to be a juggernaut in the
global economy, but they cannot cheat. We have to hold them
accountable. They cannot cheat. So, I just think that Huawei is
a perfect example of how we can lead the global community. We
can lead a coalition of international partners to change their
behavior. Are you following me?
Dr. Spalding. Absolutely, and totally agree.
Mr. Timmons. So, I was very pleased the Promoting Secure 5G
Act that I proposed in 2021 was included in the 2022 National
Defense Authorization Act, then was signed into law December 27
of 2021. So, I mean, I am doing my part to hold Huawei
accountable in the global economy, but we need to replicate
this exact game plan across the board.
And, you know, we are talking about TikTok is a great
example of, again, if they relocate their servers to ensure
privacy and have the rule of law where the Chinese Communist
Party is not going to be able to compromise the privacy and
data security of millions and millions of Americans' personal
data, I mean, that is what we are looking for. We are looking
for equity, and we are looking for parity in the global
economy. It is not just 5G. It is not just TikTok.
I mean, the intellectual property and the subsidization of
businesses that are competing in the global economy, we have to
reform their behavior. And I really think people do not
understand that our system of government is designed to create
a free market where the government does not put its thumb on
the scales. And businesses compete, and if they have good
products and services, they succeed. But in China, it is
literally a part of their culture that the government is
responsible for giving pseudo private businesses an advantage.
They give them advantages in permitting. They give them
advantages in cheap energy costs. They give them advantages in
reduced labor standards, whatever it is. Do you agree with all
that?
Dr. Spalding. I do agree with that. One point I would make
is that it is not just good enough to cut them off from the
global economy. We must develop our own stuff. We must invest
in ourselves, and I think that is an important aspect of it.
Mr. Timmons. Absolutely. We saw during COVID that our lack
of supply chain diversification was a huge problem, and, I
mean, we need to realize that they are not our friends. And we
need to get the rest of the world to appreciate that we cannot
be overly reliant on an economy or country that is acting in
bad faith for the purpose of becoming the global hegemon that
will then reduce the rest of the world to subservience. That is
their objective, and we have to push back on that because it is
not a matter of if, but when, if we do not change course. And
with that, Mr. Chairman, I yield back. Thank you.
Chairman Comer. Very good. The Chair now recognizes Mr.
Goldman.
Mr. Goldman. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I am going to take a
minute just to answer the question you keep asking, which is,
what is the business of the Bidens?. Not surprisingly, you
consistently and continually refer to the ``Bidens'', ``the
Biden family,'' and you never refer to the individual names, so
let me just help you out with telling you what the professions
are of the Bidens.
[Chart]
Hunter Biden was a corporate governance lawyer appointed by
George Bush to the Amtrak Board and then served on a number of
corporate boards and investment firms. Jim Biden is a
businessman. Joe Biden is the President of the United States
and has been a public servant and elected official for the
better part of 50 years. Now, Hunter Biden, you may want to
discuss what his business was, and whether he was equipped to
be part of an investment firm to provide services based on his
experience. But that has nothing to do with your jurisdiction
or the impeachment investigation because you cannot link any of
his business dealings, A) to any foreign government, which he
was never paid by, unlike Donald Trump's and Donald Trump's
family, or B) to the President of the United States. And that
is why your impeachment investigation is a spectacular failure.
Now, let us turn to the issue of this hearing. In the
opening statement, the Chairman chided Democrats for adding
Russia to a hearing on political warfare. It is truly
remarkable, given the following facts. First, we know that
Russia used political warfare to interfere in the 2016 election
on behalf of Donald Trump. We know that from the Mueller
report, which my colleague from Texas just referenced. The
Mueller report never, of course, said there was no collusion.
It just stated that there was insufficient evidence to prove a
criminal conspiracy. But there was plenty of evidence of
collusion, including, just a few, Donald Trump Jr. eagerly
meeting with Russians to get ``dirt'' on Hillary Clinton;
Donald Trump asking Russia to hack into Hillary Clinton's
emails, which they did; and Paul Manafort, the campaign
chairman, giving internal polling data to a Russian spy. And,
in fact, Special Counsel Mueller stated that the Trump Campaign
knew about the Russian interference, welcomed it, and used it
for their benefit. But importantly, Special Counsel Mueller
also charged two dozen Russians with interfering in the 2016
election through a hacking scheme and social media.
Let us also point out that Chairman Comer and Chairman
Jordan have both stated that the best evidence of high crimes
and misdemeanors by President Biden was a thoroughly and
repeatedly debunked theory of bribery that was planted in this
Committee by the Russian Government through an FBI source.
Third, Republican Chairmen of our national security Committees
in the House have stated that Russian disinformation has
infiltrated the Republican Party and is parroted on the House
Floor as more than half the Republican Party has taken the side
of Vladimir Putin against our democratic ally in Ukraine.
Now, Professor Snyder has done a masterful job explaining
how the CCP's efforts to engage in political warfare is based
on Russia's previous efforts to do so, and, in fact, China's
primary means of doing so is to amplify Russian disinformation
and political warfare. And here, we have two spies. One alleged
Russian spy--one Chinese spy on the top, Gal Luft, and one
alleged Russian spy on the bottom, Alexander Smirnov. Alexander
Smirnov is the one who planted the false information about the
bribery that the Chairman and--both Chairmen have said is the
best evidence of wrongdoing by Joe Biden. Gal Luft is the
Chinese spy, who the Chairman has said was a very credible
witness.
So, you cannot discuss the CCP efforts to engage in
political warfare without discussing Russia's, but not
surprisingly, the party of Putin in the Majority wants to do
just that. Let us just make one reference to the Chinese spy--
--
Mr. Sessions. Mr. Chairman?
Mr. Goldman [continuing]. Since we are supposed to talk
about----
Mr. Sessions. Mr. Chairman?
Mr. Goldman. Please stop my time.
Chairman Comer. Stop the clock. The Chair recognizes Mr.
Sessions.
Mr. Sessions. Mr. Chairman, I think that that was a
personal remark at me and my party. I think it is
inappropriate, and I would ask that the gentleman's words be
taken down.
Mr. Raskin. I do not think the gentleman mentioned your
name.
Mr. Sessions. He said the party of--he referred to my party
as the party of Putin, and that is a personal slanderous
statement.
Mr. Goldman. No, it is not. It is just a statement about--
--
Mr. Raskin. A statement about a party is by definition not
a statement about a person.
Mr. Sessions. I would ask that his words be taken down.
Chairman Comer. The Committee will suspend.
Mr. Goldman. I do get to defend myself, Mr. Chairman, and
what I would say is that there was no----
Chairman Comer. We have suspended. Do you wish to take down
what you said?
Mr. Goldman. No, I do not.
Chairman Comer. OK. Well, we suspended.
Mr. Goldman. And I do not because it does not reference any
individual Member of Congress, which is the only reason why
words are taken down.
Chairman Comer. OK. OK. The Chair has ruled that,
unfortunately, since his remarks were not directed toward a
person but rather a party, then they cannot be taken down. But
I will remind everyone about the decorum that we have all
agreed to abide by, as well as the purpose of this hearing. It
is about the Chinese Communist Party's influence in America.
And I think----
Mr. Goldman. Mr. Chairman, if I could have my time
restored.
Chairman Comer. Mr. Goldman, you have 14 seconds left.
Mr. Goldman. No, I would like my time restored to 20
seconds.
Chairman Comer. Your 20 seconds, yes.
Mr. Goldman. Because I would like to talk about what you
just said is this hearing, the point of this hearing, which is
the CCP. So, if I could get my time back to 20 seconds, I just
have one more point to make on that.
Chairman Comer. Twenty seconds.
Mr. Goldman. Thank you.
Chairman Comer. Nineteen.
Mr. Goldman. So, let us talk about the CCP's infiltration.
After Gal Luft was arrested, and a simple internet search would
show that he was arrested, the Chairman said that he was a very
credible witness on the Biden family corruption. Do you know
what else he was charged for? He was charged for making false
statements to law enforcement about the very information that
the Chairman claimed to be credible----
Chairman Comer. The time has expired.
Mr. Goldman [continuing]. Just like Alexander Smirnov, the
Russian agent was charged with false statements.
Chairman Comer. The Chair now recognizes Mr. Burchett from
Tennessee. The Chair now recognizes Mr. Burchett.
Mr. Burchett. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Mattis, how do
the Chinese Ministry of State Security and the Chinese Ministry
of Public Service advance communist China's unrestricted
warfare against the United States?
Mr. Mattis. The way the party defines united front work, it
is the work of the whole party, and, therefore, as one of my
friends and colleagues, Alex Joske, put in a report, the party
speaks for you. You can see a variety of party institutions,
but then you can see united front work being conducted in
nearly every single ministry. And in the Ministry of Public
Security, you can see this in their contracting and for
computer network exploitation or hacking of dissidents of
people abroad, of their overseas police stations to track and
to monitor Chinese who are living overseas, whether they are
PRC citizens or not, and whether or not they are legally there
or not.
And the Ministry of State Security is an intelligence
service with internal and external responsibilities, some of
which are political influence. And they have often hidden
inside the united front organizations as a way to provide cover
to conceal who they are as intelligence officers.
Mr. Burchett. OK. What are the specific capabilities the
Chinese Ministry of Public Service and the Ministry of State
Security, and how do these groups work with the People's
Liberation Army to undermine the U.S.? If we could keep it kind
of brief. I am going to run out of time.
Mr. Mattis. All right. Well, one of the ways that they work
together is in mature policy systems like the Taiwan affairs
issue or Hong Kong and Macau affairs, where all of these
organizations are, in fact, sharing cover organizations and
working together with their other colleagues around the party
and the government to work on those issues. And in some cases,
you can see them working together to support, say, the Ryukyu
independence movement in Okinawa, in the hopes that U.S. bases
will not be there.
Mr. Burchett. All right. And which communities and
institutions are vulnerable Chinese intelligence operations?
Mr. Mattis. All of them.
Mr. Burchett. All of them? OK.
Mr. Mattis. I have eight former colleagues.
Mr. Burchett. That is pretty broad. All right. Dr.
Spalding, I would like you to talk a little bit more about the
failures of the intelligence community that my colleague
mentioned earlier, and which agencies could be doing more.
Dr. Spalding. I think they all could be doing more.
Mr. Burchett. Excuse me, General Spalding. I called you--I
apologize. My daddy was a general when he was in the Marine
Corps in the Second World War, Peleliu and Okinawa, Chesty
Puller. He told me the only thing a general ever gave him was a
hard time, so I can hear him whisper in my ear to show him some
respect. So, excuse me, General.
Dr. Spalding. Thank you, Congressman. It is really about
the focus of the intelligence agencies, and I think it has
really been evident here in this hearing. The Chinese Communist
Party seeks to divert our focus from them, and they really are
using both of the conflicts that are ongoing, both the Russia-
Ukraine conflict and what I would call the Israel-Iranian
conflict. And I think that is something that our intelligence
agencies really want to be focused on. They want to be focused
on the hard military aspect of national security, and what they
are not focused on is the economic, the social, the political,
the cultural part of their warfare, and that is really the main
part. The People's Liberation Army is an armed component of the
Chinese Communist Party. The Chinese Communist Party themselves
practice political warfare as their main avenue of attack,
period, and that is what the intelligence agencies do not focus
on.
Mr. Burchett. How does the CCP shut down criticism of its
human rights abuses or warfare against America?
Dr. Spalding. It uses our own media. One good example is
its attack on the Falun Gong. It has basically convinced the
entire academic university system in the United States that
they are a brainwashed cult. They have done the same thing to
our media institutions. And so, that is the way they do it, is
by controlling our own narratives within the----
Mr. Burchett. And you are saying that they are not a
brainwashed cult?
Dr. Spalding. I think they are just a group of people that
are dissidents of the Chinese communist regime.
Mr. Burchett. Yes, I agree with you, too. They put on a
pretty cool dance routine. It is pretty cool. Colonel Grant
Newsham, I am going to switch gears pretty quick. Did
dismissing the lab leak theory as a conspiracy or as a racist
help China muddy the waters on COVID's origin?
Colonel Newsham. It was key to it, and it worked.
Mr. Burchett. Sorry?
Colonel Newsham. It was key, and it worked very, very well.
Mr. Burchett. Did the lab leak theory, as a conspiracy or
racist, help China further divide the American people, in your
opinion?
Colonel Newsham. Oh, completely. It did more harm than they
could have dreamed of doing. I think they are pinching
themselves now.
Mr. Burchett. I think they are, too. And I am out of time,
but I do appreciate all of you all for your service. Colonel, I
am sorry we did not get to talk more.
Chairman Comer. The Chair now recognizes Ms. Pressley from
Massachusetts.
Ms. Pressley. Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you to our
witnesses for being here. As policymakers, we have the
responsibility to weigh our words carefully, especially during
discussions like the one that we are having here today. The
Chinese Communist Party is adept at Russian propaganda efforts
to interfere in our elections and advance its own objectives.
We should address that issue seriously, and we can and must do
so without stigmatizing and discriminating against people based
on their identities. Racial slurs are not a national security
strategy. They do nothing to help counter the threat posed by
the CCP.
Mr. Mattis, in a June 2023 tweet, you wrote that equating
the Chinese Communist Party to Chinese culture is ``racist by
any other name.'' I agree. Distinguishing between a political
party and an entire race of people and its culture is
important, and we have the moral responsibility to make that
clear, yet it is lost on some. Mr. Mattis, what is the harm in
equating China's ruling party, the Chinese Communist Party,
with all people of Chinese descent?
Mr. Mattis. One, because the history of China is far bigger
than the Chinese Communist Party. It is one of the world's
great civilizations. You know, whether you accept the way in
which the current, sort of, minority structure is described or
not, it includes a lot of different people from different
places that have come together or have been sort of defined as
Chinese in the last 170 years.
Another reason is that there are a lot of Chinese-Americans
who are Chinese people who came to this United States and have
chosen to become citizens. I remember a classmate of mine at
University of Washington, who is 7th-generation generation
Chinese, which is more American than I am by any measure that
counts. And to pretend that they are somehow represented by the
Chinese Communist Party rather than their local politicians,
their elected congressional Members, and their state senators
and Governors and President, I think it dismisses the choices
that they or their family have made.
Ms. Pressley. Thank you. Thank you. Anti-Asian racism is
pervasive in this country. Republican rhetoric and policies
have helped to normalize it. In March 2020, Donald Trump
tweeted the racist phrase ``China virus'' in reference to
COVID-19. In the week that followed, there was a significant
increase in anti-Asian content on Twitter, as well as an
increase in hate crimes against Asian-Americans, according to a
2021 study.
I ask for unanimous consent to enter this study from the
American Journal of Public Health into the record.
Chairman Comer. Without objection, so ordered.
Ms. Pressley. Mr. Mattis, how can Congress address the CCP
without contributing to xenophobia?
Mr. Mattis. The first is to continue making such
distinctions because even if they are semantic in terms of
policies, they help us frame, in our own head, in our own mind,
what it is that we should be focused on and how our efforts
should be guided. The second is that I firmly believe that we
have a shortage of China expertise for all of the different
departments in the government and finding ways, either through
the creation of an open-source center, as Colonel Newsham
mentioned, sort of the recreation of the Foreign Broadcast
Information Service, but he is really discussing its public
dissemination issue to make information available.
Ms. Pressley. Thank you.
Mr. Mattis. Because at the end of the day, our Federal
Government and law enforcement will focus on illegal behavior,
and that is what we want in a democracy. But what we are
talking about is often unacceptable but still legal behavior,
and that is something that has to be guided by a discussion in
civil society about how we govern ourselves and how we deal
with each other as citizens.
Ms. Pressley. Thank you very much. The AAPI community has
seen a sharp increase in discrimination and race-based violence
since the start of the pandemic. There were 158 anti-Asian hate
crimes in the country in 2019. This number jumped to 746 in
2021, nearly five times higher. Our constituents are depending
on us to help them, not endanger them with racist rhetoric. As
a proud member of the congressional Asian Pacific American
Caucus, my hope is that Congress will prioritize policies that
affirm and protect the AAPI members of our community, like the
Southeast Asian Deportation Relief Act, and stop contributing
to hateful acts against them. And finally, Professor Snyder,
when political leaders normalize racist language that pits one
group against another, does it make our country more or less
safe?
Dr. Snyder. As our adversaries know and seek to exploit, it
makes us less safe.
Ms. Pressley. Thank you. I yield back.
Chairman Comer. The Chair now recognizes Ms. Greene from
Georgia.
Ms. Greene. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I think this is a very
important hearing we are having today, and I would like to take
a little time to respond to some misinformation that has been
spread here.
[Charts]
Mr. Snyder, you said in your opening statement that the
fact that there are neo-Nazis in the Ukrainian military is
disinformation, a disinformation trope and a Russian
denazification meme.
Mr. Chairman, I would like to submit for the record this
2021 Time Magazine article titled, ``How a White Supremacist
Militia uses Facebook to Radicalize and Train New Members About
the Ukrainian Neo-Nazi Azov Battalion.''
Chairman Comer. Without objection, so ordered.
Ms. Greene. Thank you. Time also put together a piece only
3 years ago, and it is quite an extensive video that gives full
information about the Nazis in Ukraine and their recruitment
efforts that go all around the world. It is amazing to me that
just in a few years' time, it is now considered misinformation
to talk about the Nazis in Ukraine.
I would like to quote the article. It says that ``Ali
Soufan, a security consultant and former FBI agent who has
studied Azov Nazis, estimates that more than 17,000 foreign
fighters have come to Ukraine over the past 6 years from 50
countries.'' According to Christopher Wray, the FBI Director,
he said that Azov has been recruiting and radicalizing and
training American citizens for years. He also finished saying
in his testimony to the U.S. Senate that American White
supremacists are actually traveling overseas to train. This is
an extremely concerning situation. I do not think anyone in the
U.S. Government, Americans, do not support actual Nazis or
White supremacists. I know I certainly do not, and I cannot
understand why in just a short amount of time, this information
that our own American media frequently talked about is no
longer talked about.
I would like to point out also, here is an NBC article,
stating that Ukraine's Nazi problem is real. Mr. Snyder, do you
see this headline? This is NBC News. They say that Ukraine's
Nazi problem is real, even ``if Putin's denazification claim is
not.'' So, even our own American media, unless you consider NBC
or Time Magazine, misinformation spreaders or disinformation
media outlets, this is contrary to what you testified. And
there are frequent pictures all over--anybody can find them--of
Nazis. Here they are. This looks like something you would see
out of Hitler's Germany, from Ukraine. And this is something
that is extremely important to talk about.
According to the Council of Europe, ``However, Ukraine is
ranked well in the top half of countries in terms of how
corrupt they are. In the last 5 years, Ukraine is ranked close
to the countries like Gambia, Iran, Myanmar, and Sierra Leone
in corruption.'' That is not very free and democratic company
to keep. Ukraine has canceled their elections, arrested members
of the press, not allowed different types of religion unless it
goes along with the Ukrainian Government. And right now, the
biggest push in Washington, DC, is to fund the Ukraine war with
another $60 billion.
And while we are talking about the CCP, I think it is
extremely important to point out that our own wide-open border
is the most dangerous threat to our national security.
According to CBP data, there have been 24,296 Chinese nationals
enter the United States at the Southern border just this year
in 2024. I want you to know that is up 7,000 percent since
Biden took office in 2021 when only 342 Chinese nationals
crossed our border.
When we are talking about national security and talking
about threats through the United States, Congress needs to
remember that our open border is the greatest threat to the
American people who, by the way, Monday was Tax Day. April
15th, when struggling Americans pulled together to pay their
taxes or filed for extensions or paid money that they just did
not have and desperately are hoping for a tax return, the
United States Federal Government is doing everything they can,
here in Congress, persuading Members of Congress with every
lobbyist from foreign countries and groups, trying to tell us
to send $100 billion overseas, and we are doing nothing for our
border.
So, when you want to talk about misinformation, Mr. Snyder,
you might actually look a little closer to American media, if
you do not like what they are saying. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I yield back.
Mr. Raskin. Mr. Chairman, does he have the opportunity to
respond to the gentlelady?
Chairman Comer. Sure.
Mr. Raskin. Thank you.
Ms. Greene. I did not ask him a question, Mr. Raskin.
Chairman Comer. OK. No. Her time has expired.
Mr. Raskin. You asked multiple questions.
Ms. Greene. I did not ask him a question.
Mr. Raskin. You certainly did. You said didn't----
Ms. Green. I did not ask him a question, Mr. Raskin.
Chairman Comer. The time has expired. The gentlelady's time
has expired. The Chair now recognizes Mr. Frost from Florida.
Mr. Frost. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Before I get into it,
it is interesting to hear my colleague just now talk about
disavowing White supremacists when, in 2022, she spoke at an
event led by White supremacist and White nationalist, Nick
Fuentes, and when asked about it, doubled down on it and said,
``We are going to focus on people, not labels.'' So, get out of
here with that damn hypocrisy, and, Dr. Snyder, I am going to
give you some time to respond. Go ahead.
Dr. Snyder. First of all, I would like to thank the
representative from Georgia by making clear with her comments
and with her person that any discussion of political warfare
has to include Russia, Ukraine, and America. She has just
demonstrated that point, I think, very powerfully. On the
question of Nazis, I have written two books as a historian
about Nazis and the Holocaust. On the question of Ukrainian
nationalism, I am the leading scholar of that subject in North
America, and I have been writing about it for 20 years.
If the chamber is interested in the degree of far-right
participation in Ukrainian politics, you can be assured that no
far-right party has ever crossed 3 percent--3 percent--in
Ukrainian election. So of course, there are bad people in every
country, but by any comparative standard it is a very small
phenomenon. In Russia, on the other hand, the army includes
openly Nazi formations, such as Rusich. The government itself
is fascist in character, and it is carrying out a war which
includes deportation of children by the tens of thousands, the
open intention of destroying a state as well as mass torture.
So, if we are looking for fascism, and if there is anyone who
is sincerely concerned about halting fascism or racism, you
would wish to halt Russia.
Mr. Frost. Thank you so much, Dr. Snyder, and, you know,
this hearing was put together to talk about political warfare.
And it is strange because a lot of my Republican colleagues
seem to be pointing a lot of fingers, but not at Vladimir Putin
and not holding him accountable. I mean, even top-ranking
Republicans are having enough of it. Michael McCaul said, ``I
think Russian propaganda has made its way into the United
States. Unfortunately, it has infected a good chunk of my
party's base.'' We just heard some of that right now.
Republican Michael Turner, Chairman of the House Intelligence
Committee, ``We see, directly coming from Russia, attempts to
mask communications that are anti-Ukraine and pro-Russia
messages, some of which we even hear being uttered on the House
Floor.'' Dr. Snyder, can you talk really quickly about some of
the main narratives Russia uses when engaging in political
warfare?
Dr. Snyder. I appreciate this question because if we are
going to talk about political warfare, we have to take into
account the ways that countries cooperate. It is entirely
artificial to say here is China, here is America. That means
that we leave aside Xinjiang, we leave aside Tibet, Hong Kong,
Taiwan, New Zealand, Australia, Europe, all the places where
China practices political warfare, and we leave aside Russia
and Ukraine, which is where it matters the most. Political
warfare is only political warfare if it passes through us. That
is the intention. We have just seen an example of it passing
through a person. It is only political warfare if it passes
through us.
What the Russians and the Chinese imitating the Russians
try to do is to convince us that our system is no better than
theirs, there is no point in voting, and we should support, if
we support anyone at all, the person who is most likely to
bring our system down. That is the point.
Mr. Frost. I really appreciate you bringing up the fact
that it has to pass through us because we just heard it here
from my colleague, and here is another tweet from the same
colleague saying, ``Anyone who votes to fund Ukraine is funding
the most corrupt money scheme of any foreign war in our
country's history.'' And if you look at where this is from,
this is from the Strategic Culture Foundation, an online
journal run by a Russian intelligence service that has been
sanctioned by the U.S. Treasury Department for election
interference.
So, we see it passing through us, and not just with the
colleague that just spoke, but with many of my colleagues on
the other side of the aisle. And what Russian propaganda will
not tell you is most of the money allocated for Ukraine is
actually spent in America. Ninety percent of it going to
Americans. And so, are these American companies that support
Ukraine? Are these allegations based on evidence, Dr. Synder,
and, if not, where do these allegations against President
Zelensky and his cabinet come from?
Dr. Snyder. First of all, U.S. weapons are being used
extremely efficiently on the Ukrainian battlefield. They are
being audited in practice. Second, there is an American
institution which does audit the way that is expended. Third of
all, you are quite right. What the allocation of usually
weapons that are about to be decommissioned anyway to Ukraine
means is that we spend more on modern weapons inside the United
States, which is why the defense industry is generally in favor
of it. This trope of Ukraine being corrupt with respect to the
weapons comes from a handful of Russian sources. There is no
reason to think it. They are fighting for their lives. They are
doing very well.
Mr. Frost. Yes. Thank you so much. We are going to let that
sink in. We have Members of the U.S. Congress using Russian
disinformation to discredit Ukraine and help Russia, and I
yield back. Thank you.
Mr. Sessions. [Presiding]. The gentleman yields back his
time. Thank you very much. Now, I will yield myself 5 minutes.
Mr. Raskin. Mr. Chairman, before we do, can I just have one
unanimous consent request?
Mr. Sessions. Yes, sir.
Mr. Raskin. This is an article answering our friend, the
gentlelady from Georgia, ``The Azov Battalion: How Putin Built
a False Premise for a War Against Nazis in Ukraine,'' from CBS
News.
Mr. Sessions. Without objection, we will add that.
I also was speaking with the gentleman about two articles,
which I would wish to enter into the record, the label of which
they would be ``Treasury Targets Large Chinese Network of
Illegal Drug Producers,'' and second, a letter signed by over
50 members, including senators, to the Attorney General of the
United States, dated February the 2nd concerning Chinese
nationals----
Mr. Raskin. Terrific.
Mr. Sessions [continuing]. Owning property here as it
relates to growing marijuana.
Without objection, those both will be entered into the
record.
Thank you to the panel that is here. Each of you have added
content today that I consider very valuable and necessary for
us to hear.
I would like to, if I could, point to Colonel Newsham, if I
could, please. Colonel Newsham, you are the author of a book.
It is called ``When China Attacks: A Warning to America,'' and
part of this is not just related to the things that have been
discussed by my colleagues today of drugs, fentanyl, et cetera.
But in particular, today, I would like to have you give us the
warning, ``When China Attacks: A Warning to America,'' of the
newest deadly drug ingredient that has, as DEA Milgram has said
her Agency has seen this, xylazine, if I am saying that
correctly, when mixed with fentanyl in 48 states.
And evidently, fentanyl on this scale of times, it is a
thousand times more potent than most of the drugs that are on
the market, and this is a thousand times fentanyl. I am not a
medical doctor. I believe that this is done to kill more
Americans because the threshold of the potency that you have to
gain knowledge of over time is a higher, higher, high. Sir, did
I pronounce the name right, and can you discuss that? It is
spelled X-y-l-a-z-i-n-e?
Colonel Newsham. Sir, I think you are close enough. What I
would point out is that the deaths from fentanyl, and this is
just the next variation of it, this is like take----
Mr. Sessions. A thousand times more potent, though,
perhaps.
Colonel Newsham. It is bad news. But I point out, sir, is
this is taking four or five divisions of Marines or Army off
the rolls. That is basically what you are doing. We do not have
enough recruits in the military, and this is one reason why.
And it is something that does track back to the Chinese
Communist Party, and it is what they are doing. One thing I
would like to mention, sir. The book that I wrote, it is
largely about political warfare, and it has been going on for
30-plus years. And I would suggest that based on what I have
heard today that Ukraine could disappear, it could have never
come along, and you would have the same problem with Chinese
political warfare.
There is a tendency to conflate the word ``political
warfare,'' which is a blanket term covering everything from
economic to financial, to chemical, to fishing fleets, to
equate it all to propaganda, and that is not the case. And I
would say, in fact, that go to Latin America, Africa, the
Pacific Islands, and read Chinese propaganda, and they do not
mention Ukraine. It never gets a mention, and that is something
really that is important to keep in mind. And it is
condescending, I think, to think that the Chinese are so stupid
that they cannot do anything without asking the Russians how to
do it.
Mr. Sessions. Yes, sir, I think that is a point of
influence, and they have this line on influence, and let us go
back to the things that we were speaking about that you have
accurately, I think, described. The Chinese have a way that
will diminish the amount of military-age young people that this
country produces by aiming their drugs at us, by causing the
deaths of thousands of young people if not addiction of other
types of drugs. You believe that they are really very smart at
getting at young people, causing their, if not addiction,
demise or death, and that is why they keep coming up with new
drugs that are designed for that purpose. Is that your point?
Colonel Newsham. That is how it works. And also, sir, the
successful economic warfare, which is part of political warfare
that shipped so much of our manufacturing over to China, it
leaves these societies that are just dead and vulnerable to
drug warfare. Like we are saying, it all feeds on itself, and
you can see the effect that has on our military. The death
total we talk about, well, it is 10 times more people who were
not killed but are not functional, and it is what the Chinese
have done, the Chinese communists have done really throughout
their entire existence.
Mr. Sessions. And really, it is a parasite designed to kill
the host. They have put it in front of Americans and Americans
have, so to speak, taken the bait. Thank you very much for your
feedback. I would now yield my time. The gentlewoman, Ms.
Crockett, is recognized for 5 minutes.
Ms. Crockett. Thank you so much, Mr. Chair. First of all, I
do want to clear up some actual misinformation. Dr. Snyder,
when you were testifying earlier, you were actually responding
to questions that were posed by another colleague from Texas.
One of the questions was who was the President in 2008. And to
be clear, Obama ran in 2008, but Obama did not swear in until
2009. So, when my colleague asked about invasions from Russia,
actually in 2008, Russia was invading Georgia, and it was
another Texan that was the President at the time, and that was
George Bush. In addition to that, one of the things that my
colleague did not inquire about, but I want to make sure we are
clear about, is that Trump was President in 2019 when he
threatened to withhold aid to the Ukrainians as they were being
threatened by the Russians, so I do want to make sure that we
do that.
You know, what is wild to me is that this word ``patriot''
seems to be getting co-opted for propagandists because that is
what they do, all right? So, we are going to talk about my
colleague from Georgia, she talks about misinformation, and I
do not know what she was talking about, but nevertheless, we
can look at her own tweets and we can find plenty of
misinformation, but we are just going to go through one
specific tweet.
Now, she said that we need to work with Israel to track
down the serial numbers on any U.S. weapons used by Hamas
against Israel. Dr. Snyder, I may be going out on a limb, but
are you aware that that was actually just propaganda that was
put out and there actually were not U.S. weapons that were
being used by Hamas as she attempted to insinuate in this
tweet?
Dr. Snyder. First of all, I appreciate the clarification. I
knew that the question, who were the American Presidents, it
was going to be the toughest one I got from that side, so I
appreciate your helping me out.
Ms. Crockett. Understood.
Dr. Snyder. Yes. I mean, obviously there what you have is a
typical example of American Russian messaging, where the
implicit idea is supposed to be we should not give weapons to
Ukraine because they would end up going somewhere else. There
is no evidence for that. It is hard to think of an example
where American weapons have been leveraged with such success as
on the Ukrainian battlefield.
Ms. Crockett. Thank you so much. In fact, for some people,
especially people that serve on the Committee, they may be
surprised to know that it is actually a former Russian
president and Putin's sidekick, Dmitry, and I do not want to
slaughter his name, so, I am going to say Dmitry M., who
actually she quote tweeted. See, the problem that we are having
and the reason that we are bringing up Russia as well, is
because Russia is a threat as well as China, so we are not
going to sit here and pretend as if it is only one or the
other. But the biggest problem that we have is we have people
that sit in this chamber and they spread the misinformation. If
it was left in Russia or China, whatever. But the problem is
that you have people that sit in positions of power and they
have a $2 million budget. You think that they will call on some
staff to find out if they were telling the truth about the
things that they are putting on social media, but instead it
works for their rhetoric.
And as we talk about rhetoric, something else that was
appalling to me was this insinuation that when you look at the
Ukrainians, which is why we are having problems getting the
funding that Ukraine needs, is because people in this chamber
push misinformation and disinformation. They want to talk about
the Ukrainians got all of these Nazis. Well, let me tell you
something. You can find Nazis anywhere. You can find them right
here in the United States, in fact, a bunch of the people that
they are calling victims and prisoners of war, also known as
convicted felons from January 6.
I have an article that I would like to enter into the
record by unanimous consent that says, ``Neo-Nazi January 6
Rioter Pleads Guilty.''
Mr. LaTurner. [Presiding] Without objection.
Ms. Crockett. Thank you so much. So, here is the point. We
have people in this chamber that are actually causing just as
much a threat, if not more of a threat, to our own country. We
should be talking about holding our very own accountable for
the misinformation and disinformation that they are spreading.
Whether it is coming out of China, whether it is coming out of
Russia, or whoever is peddling it, it is a problem because
right now what we see is that people are dying, and we cannot
get the support that we need from the public because they
continue to peddle lies.
And I am tired of it because I did not come to this chamber
to play games. I came to this chamber to answer to the people,
the American people, and to make sure that we keep the American
people safe. And if we do not get something done, as they talk
about the border, I do want to be clear--the only reason we
have not gotten funding for the border is because the House
Republicans here killed the bill that they actually sent us
from the Senate side. If they want to do some work, let me tell
you something, the Democrats are ready, and it seems like the
Senate Republicans are ready, too. They just need to get to it
and stop peddling Putin's lies. Thank you, and I yield.
Mr. LaTurner. The gentlelady yields back. I will recognize
myself for 5 minutes.
Thank you to our witnesses for being here today as we
address the greatest threat to America's national security, the
Chinese Communist Party. CCP will stop at nothing to infiltrate
American supply chains and gain insight into our most critical
military operations and homeland security practices. Over the
past few years, we have witnessed President Xi's increased
aggression within America's borders, buying up farmland, spying
on us with high altitude surveillance balloons, operating
illegal Chinese police stations, and stealing valuable
intellectual property. The threat posed by the CCP extends far
beyond the confines of any single industry or entity, with an
ultimate goal of entwining themselves into every aspect of our
economy, society, and governance, a threat I am seeing
firsthand in my district.
Our Nation's greatest adversary is currently setting up
shop in Johnson County, Kansas under the guise of Cnano
Technology USA, a Chinese-backed manufacturer firm with
alarming ties to CCP military and intelligence services. This
new manufacturing facility is just 34 miles away from Fort
Leavenworth, 72 miles from Whiteman Air Force Base, 105 miles
from Fort Riley, and 165 miles from McConnell Air Force Base.
Allowing Cnano USA to operate near these significant military
installations and become embedded in our local supply chains
opens the door to Chinese espionage and puts our military
intelligence, trade, research, and intellectual property at
risk of falling into the hands of the CCP leaders. Make no
mistake, Cnano USA is a wolf in sheep's clothing and poses a
clear threat to the United States and to the state of Kansas.
In January of this year, I wrote to Secretary Yellen and
Secretary Austin, urging them as members of the Committee on
Foreign Investment in the United States to open an immediate
investigation into Cnano USA. After the Biden Administration
refused to act, I urged the Kansas legislature to pass
commonsense solutions to ensure we have tools at our disposal
to protect Kansas from CCP infiltration. As President Xi and
the CCP continue to target American communities, it is more
important than ever that we work to stop Chinese-backed
businesses from exploiting our supply chains and gaining access
to our crucial military bases across the country. I look
forward to hearing from our witnesses today.
Mr. Mattis, Cnano Technology USA is a subsidiary of Cnano
Jiangsu. Cnano Jiangsu has repeatedly received funding from the
CCP for participation in state initiatives, including in the
CCP's 863 program. Can you explain what the CCP's 863 program
was and the purpose of it and other similar programs?
Mr. Mattis. So, the 863 program is named after the date
that it was launched, which is March 1986. And it is
essentially a state investment vehicle to channel funding for
national defense modernization and civilian technologies that
would facilitate that. And although they have changed the
names, I think at least twice over the years, and come up with
some, you know, related programs, it still retains that focus
on military modernization.
Mr. LaTurner. Let me stay with you. Cnano Jiangsu has also
cooperated in the past with the CCP's United Front Work
Department, and the united front is actively engaged in
political warfare in the U.S. Could you explain how the united
front might use a U.S. subsidiary of a Chinese entity to
conduct non-kinetic warfare tactics such as economic warfare?
Mr. Mattis. So, the united front, there could very well be
in sort of the Chinese parent company a party committee that
has a United Front Work Department attached to it and works for
that company. It would largely be involved in mobilizing the
employees of that company and channeling their efforts to
support their authority's apparatus. The most likely way that
it would be involved in any form of intellectual property theft
and economic espionage would be in providing tips and leads to
the, essentially, the Ministry of State Security or the local
state security department of Jiangsu Province.
Mr. LaTurner. So, here we have a company that has received
money from the 863 program and is engaged with the united front
in the past. Should we believe that a U.S. subsidiary of a PRC
company is completely divorced from its PRC base umbrella?
Mr. Mattis. It is possible, but I think when you look at
the way in which U.S. media has reported on the supposed
division between ByteDance and TikTok, that TikTok has not
operated as though it were a separate company but rather as a
constituent part of ByteDance, with ByteDance employees
exercising authorities there. There are reasons that I have the
similar concerns with AVIC and its subsidiaries in the United
States, one of the PRC's major military aircraft manufacturers.
So, I am not sure if any company that I know has been very
closely tied to the party state and its objectives that you can
separate off, and I am not sure that many of the U.S. employees
understand what that relationship is.
Mr. LaTurner. Yes. Thank you very much, and thank you to
all the witnesses. I now recognize Ms. Porter of California
next.
Ms. Porter. Thank you so much. Republicans have told us
today that China poses an existential threat to the United
States. Their solution to that is to spend, and spend, and
spend on fancy weapons systems, often built in their districts,
that they hope will deter conflict. So, now we have aircraft
carriers, fighter jets, and tanks designed to fight a war that
may never happen. But when Congress does that, what they are
not doing is using our taxpayer dollars to address the problems
that the Chinese Communist Party is actually causing. China is
fighting every day to break international law and to expand its
reach. Mr. Mattis, could you briefly describe China's claims in
the South China Sea?
Mr. Mattis. They have an expansive claim called the nine-
dash line that stretches well beyond any recognizable feature
and under the U.N. Convention on the Law of the Sea of what
would be recognizable territory.
Ms. Porter. So, do you believe this is an illegal claim?
Mr. Mattis. Whether or not I believe it is illegal is
irrelevant because there is an International Court that has
decided that some of those claims are illegal.
Ms. Porter. OK. So, I want to make that clear. China has
taken an expansive, unlawful territorial claim to the South
China Sea, and they have ignored international law. This is a
very, very clear and important example of China not playing by
the rules, not following international law, and that behavior
is causing real harm in people's lives, whether that is in the
Philippines or in Vietnam. Mr. Mattis, can you briefly describe
for us illegal, unreported, and unregulated fishing?
Mr. Mattis. It is exactly what you described it, but China,
the PRC, has a particular role on this given that their deep
sea fishing fleet is far larger than any of the other
countries, and because it is illegal and unreported,
unregulated, it is also a nexus for forced labor. And those
ships have been violating the borders and exclusive economic
zone of other countries, including the, you know, the western
hemisphere. So, I am not quite sure how far you want to go but
that is quite a bit.
Ms. Porter. No, that is perfect. So, what we have is
Chinese fishing fleets. They are using their fishing fleets to
expand their territorial claims, their international power to
exert power over other countries. When they do this in Vietnam,
they are attempting to essentially roll over Vietnam. They are
just another country in the CCP's mind that is standing in
their way of achieving absolutist power over regional and
global commerce. So, China is trying to bulldoze over Vietnam,
including by stealing its fish, and they have largely depleted
Vietnam's fisheries. What are the consequences to Vietnam?
Mr. Mattis. There is obviously the loss of economic
revenue. There is the sort of impoverishment of local fishers.
Ms. Porter. How does that help China?
Mr. Mattis. Well, one, most seafood is processed in the
PRC, and, therefore, it sort of makes Vietnam and other
countries dependent upon that processed food.
Ms. Porter. Yes. So, I mean, look, China is ruthlessly
expanding its power, breaking the rule of law, and the Chinese
Communist Party calls this seeking strategic advantage, in part
through what they refer to as the three warfares. General
Spalding, what are some of the risks of China being successful
in breaking international law without consequence?
Dr. Spalding. I think it emboldening everybody else to do
the same thing, and I think that is the challenge here. We have
seen a complete breakdown in the liberal democratic order as a
result.
Ms. Porter. So, Mr. Mattis, does Vietnam have the military
capacity to secure its exclusive economic zone from Chinese
incursions?
Ms. Mattis. No.
Ms. Porter. So, Vietnam cannot effectively safeguard its
own resources, China is taking advantage of that, and China and
the Communist Party are hurting people and breaking
international law to become more powerful, and, ultimately, to
expand their power in a way that will threaten U.S. interests
in the long term. So, what is the United States doing about
this? Mr. Mattis, which U.S. Agency protects global fisheries?
Do you know?
Mr. Mattis. I believe it is a combination of the Coast
Guard and NOAA. And as I recall, there was an initiative that
was run by the NSC that was at the end of the Trump
Administration and carried through in the early Biden
Administration to take action on IUU fishing.
Ms. Porter. So, it is the Coast Guard. Do you know how many
cutters the Coast Guard has in the Western Pacific?
Mr. Mattis. I am going to guess somewhere between zero and
two.
Ms. Porter. Yes, five, five cutters to protect roughly 40
million square miles. So, look, in Washington we have a gadget
problem. Everyone wants the fanciest weapons systems, but to
combat illegal fishing, to combat the influence of the CCP, you
do not need stealth bombers, you do not need an aircraft
carrier. What you need is a relatively inexpensive Coast Guard
cutter and funding for good Coasties who want to serve their
country. That is the tools that we ought to be deploying today
to counter Chinese influence. Thank you, Mr. Chair, for the
extra time, and I yield back.
Mr. LaTurner. The gentlelady yields back. The Chair
recognizes the gentleman from New York, Mr. Langworthy.
Mr. Langworthy. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. The
Chinese Communist Party's united front operation has formed
Chinese Students and Scholars Associations to serve as a tool
to spy on Chinese nationals studying at foreign universities
and mobilize them against views that are critical to the CCP.
In practice, the Chinese Students and Scholars Association
serve as eyes and ears for the Chinese government on American
campuses and allows the CCP to monitor and retaliate against
Chinese nationals studying abroad. The Students and Scholars
Associations receive funding directly from Chinese diplomatic
staff and work to ensure ideological uniformity through
intimidation and pressure tactics. The CCP has also worked to
outpace the U.S. in producing STEM field Ph.D. graduates and
has gained access into every level of America's education
system.
So, Mr. Mattis, it is apparent to me that not many
Americans are aware of the CCP's operations on our campuses.
Could you explain in more detail how these united front
operations on American campuses are overseen by PRC's Ministry
of Education and how they are working to influence and monitor
Chinese students abroad?
Mr. Mattis. Fundamentally, the PRC and the party state is
trying to prevent Chinese students from having a free and full
experience on a U.S. university campus. This has been an issue
for quite some time where the effort to control what Chinese
students participate in and what they are able to experience at
U.S. university is constrained and controlled. A friend of mine
who worked at a university was approached by one of the
professors who had a student, it was an American History class,
who said, I want to participate in this project, please do not
put me in a group with another Chinese student. Because if I
am, then I will not be able to participate, and I want to do
this project in a real way. So, that is one of the ways in
which harm is done.
The second way, through the CSSAs or through Confucius
Institute or other researching, is that it creates an interest
in a particular kind of controlled engagement with the PRC or
PRC institutions that the university sort of supports and
carries on and accepts, for example, certain kinds of
programming, and interjects other kinds of programming, in the
name of preserving that relationships that they consider to be
productive.
Mr. Langworthy. Very good. Thank you. And not only is the
CCP directly influencing our students in our universities on a
daily basis but they are reaping the rewards of our education
as they quickly are outpacing the U.S. in producing STEM Ph.D.
graduates. On top of this, the U.S. has continued to lose more
and more jobs to China.
[Chart]
As you can see in the graphic I have behind me, you know,
due to our Nation's ongoing trade deficit, it has never been
more obvious and right in our face than the CCP is targeting
our schools and our jobs. So now, Colonel Newsham, are you
worried by this trend in STEM field graduates, and can you
discuss more of the concerning outcomes that you see if the CCP
comes to dominate the science and technology sector?
Colonel Newsham. Yes, sir, very concerned. And as I think I
had mentioned earlier, whenever you see the announcement of
some really impressive advance in technology at an American
university, it almost always has PRC nationals involved in it.
And where this is most important, from my perspective, is that
for too many decades, we treated the Chinese as if they could
never possibly be our equals, that the Chinese People's
Liberation Army would never be able to take us on. Well, they
are able in certain circumstances to beat us today. And they
have the technological advances that they are putting to
military use in outer space and on the, you know, ground sea
and below the sea, that it is breathtaking how they have done
it. We have actually helped them along in that process, and it
is something that we could end up on the short end of a fight,
if it comes.
Mr. Langworthy. Well, thank you very much. I want to take
the remainder of my time and look at some of the troubling
instances that the Committee is aware of in which the CCP has
sought to directly influence our children and our education
system. One instance that I find very concerning, especially in
the wake of several cyberattacks targeted toward the United
States over the past few years, occurred just recently in
August 2023. Just down the road in Fairfax County, in the
public school districts, the superintendent indicated that
Thomas Jefferson High School for Science and Technology
received $3.6 million from groups linked to the Chinese
Communist Party. Colonel Newsham, it is astonishing that this
would be allowed at any school in the United States, let alone
a science and technology school. How does this pattern of
working to infiltrate American schools fit within the CCP's
broad trend of political warfare in the United States?
Colonel Newsham. Well, that is what they do, and it is not
just the Thomas Jefferson High School. You have Confucius
classrooms. We hear about Confucius Institutes and colleges,
but the Confucius classrooms start off from preschool all the
way up through elementary school, and you indoctrinate a new
generation with the idea that the Chinese communists, who
killed 50 million of their own people in peacetime and good
weather, are really just lovable pandas. It is just
breathtakingly successful and political warfare.
Mr. Langworthy. Thank you very much, and I yield back.
Mr. LaTurner. Thank you. The Chair recognizes the
gentlelady from Michigan, Ms. Tlaib, for 5 minutes.
Ms. Tlaib. Thank you, Mr. Chair. I think my colleagues know
where I am going to go with this because I consistently try to
get them re-centered. I am really sick and tired of us not
leaving the campaigning at the Capitol steps. This is just
another Committee hearing where we are bringing campaign
activity into this chamber and not being honest with the
American people. This is not what our residents sent us to
Washington to work on. I really do got a better idea, and I
know Chairman Comer has my ideas. I send it to him all the
time, but I really want to talk about what makes the lives of
our residents difficult every single day, like greedy
corporations raising prices to pay their executives and
shareholders; polluters that literally treat communities in my
district, like poisoning them, as the cost of doing business;
politicians that put their own interests before the residents,
many of which in this Committee that own stocks in war weapon
manufacturing.
So, when we do have to vote ``yes'' or my colleagues have
to get up on the Floor and vote for more bombs and weapons in
other countries, they actually make money, personal money.
Their stock values go up. Look it up. People like our
disgraced, twice impeached President, who represents the worst
of the unchecked American capitalism, who as we speak, is
sitting in a courtroom as the first-ever American President to
face criminal prosecution.
Mr. Chair, earlier this year, the Committee's own
Democratic staff, you know, produced a report showing that
Trump received more than $7.8 million in unconstitutional
payments from foreign governments while he was Commander-in-
Chief. This is important because we talk about, you know,
influence in our elections, gerrymandering in our districts,
corrupting our democracy, and it is outside influence, but it
is happening right here on our soil, and it happened on our
soil by a sitting President. The report was based on a limited
set of documents produced by his own accounting firm, Mazars.
Like, literally it said $7.8 million in unconstitutional
payments from foreign governments while he was our Commander-
in-Chief. However, before the Committee could have received any
more documents related to Russia, Chairman Comer and the former
impeached President's lawyer stopped the production of any
further documents.
And, Professor Snyder, I do not know if you have been
following it, you know. It is something that I know our Ranking
Member Raskin heard me talk about this all the time--I always
call him my professor--about the emoluments clause and how
dangerous and how connected it is of just even the subject
matter of what we are talking about today. But do you think,
you know, if the Committee were interested in understanding the
threats of political warfare facing the United States as well
as the influence of peddling directed by foreign governments
against our country, shouldn't it demand that the accounting
firm of the forever impeached President produce all those
payments received by the President from foreign governments?
Dr. Snyder. I would have certainly thought so since every
serious scholarly treatment and every also document that I have
read from the Chinese side stresses the importance of such
financial relationships in recruitment and long-distance
management.
Ms. Tlaib. I agree, and yet instead, you know, the current
Committee have worked to help the forever impeached President
bury the evidence and keep the facts from the American people.
I think it is incredibly dangerous. And last, just because it
really made me angry, and I think it makes my constituents
angry, but I want to submit for the record this article called,
``Air Force Crew Made an Odd Stop on a Routine Trip: Trump's
Scottish Resort.'' Can I submit it for the record?
Mr. LaTurner. Without objection.
Ms. Tlaib. Yes. This one stuck really, really with me and
just is so blatant. The article details how military crews
flying supplies to and from the Middle East were redirected
from their usual overnight stops at the U.S. military bases in
Europe to a small commercial airport in Scotland outside then
President Trump's Turnberry golf resort where they stayed with
our tax dollars. This, despite the fact that both refueling and
the cost of overnight food and lodging for the crew were less
expensive at established infrequently used U.S. military bases
where they typically stopped. Surprise, surprise for all my
Committee colleagues here.
Trump's resort, which lost $4.5 million in 2017, saw all of
a sudden--whoopee--an increase of $3 million in profits in
2018. Shameful. It is disgusting, and it is just these kinds of
things, pay to play, I mean, having literally a sitting
President run his organization, his business out of the White
House is equally as dangerous to our democracy and the
influence on our country. This is something that I hope my
colleagues really take seriously because I do not care if it is
a Democrat or Republican, no one ever should sit there in the
White House, out of the Oval Office, running the business to
profit themselves. It is unconstitutional and, again, demands
that kind of accountability, and that is what I want this
Committee to address. Thank you so much. I yield.
Mr. LaTurner. The gentlelady yields back. The Chair
recognizes the gentleman from Florida, Mr. Moskowitz, for 5
minutes.
Mr. Moskowitz. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. You know, let me
start by saying that, obviously Chairman Comer is not here, but
I think in light of what we witnessed earlier, I think it is
important that, together, as a Committee, that we begin
Chairman Comer's therapy session, right? You know, a Member of
the other side wanted to confirm what the title of the hearing
was, right, Chinese propaganda?
Well, we know the title of the hearing certainly is not
about impeachment anymore, and Chairman Comer has suffered
tremendous loss, and we all know in our life what it is like to
suffer tremendous loss. There are all sorts of different stages
of grief, and that is the loss, obviously, of his impeachment
hearing. And everyone deals with that in different ways. And
sometimes it takes time to grieve and struggle and fill that
hole, that void that now exists now that he no longer has
impeachment. But the only way we as a Committee are going to
help Chairman Comer get better is we have to get to the root
cause, right?
So, for today's therapy session, OK, I want to talk about
denial, right? The denial that the impeachment hearings are
over, and the denial, obviously, that he started with the 1023
Form, which was Russian disinformation. And so, you know,
Chairman Comer's psychology teaches us that, you know, someone
might be, like him, using denial as a defense mechanism. And
signs include that you refuse to talk about the problem, you
find ways to justify your behavior, you blame other people or
outside forces for causing the problem, you persist in your
behavior despite the consequences, you promise to address the
problem maybe in the future, or you avoid thinking about the
problem.
And so, in addition to these signs that Chairman Comer has
been displaying, as we saw in the beginning, you know, he also
might be feeling hopeless or helpless. I just want the Chairman
to know that we are pulling for him. We really are. I know it
has been hard to become someone who was used by the Russians,
but the good news is, is that he set this hearing today on
Chinese propaganda, because we have already lost him to Russian
propaganda. I mean, we got to build a force field around the
Chairman and make sure we do not lose him to Chinese
propaganda, as well.
[Chart]
And, in fact, you can see behind me, these are quotes from
the Chairman, Chairman Comer, every single, solitary time, and
there are hundreds more, that he went on TV in interviews and
talked about this 1023 Form, which was all Russian
disinformation, but we got to make the Chairman understand that
it is going to be OK. We will get him through this, but he has
got to recognize that denial is not just a river in Egypt. He
is going to have to face the fact that he was taken by the
Russians.
Now, I want to address something else that went on in this
Committee by another Member, and I say this as someone whose
grandparents escaped the Holocaust. So, my grandmother was part
of the Kindertransport out of Germany. Her parents were killed
in Auschwitz. My grandfather, her husband, escaped Poland from
the pogroms. You know, the idea that we pretend that that kind
of behavior is acceptable and regular. There are no
concentration camps in Ukraine. They are not taking babies and
shooting them in the air because they are Jewish. There are no
gas chambers. There are no ovens. They are not railing people
in. They are not ripping gold out of people's mouth. They are
not taking stuff out of their home. They are not trying to
erase a people. They are Ukrainians.
Stop bringing up Nazis and Hitler. The only people who know
about Nazis and Hitler are the 10 million people and their
families who lost their loved ones, generations of people who
were wiped out. It is enough of this disgusting behavior using
Nazis as propaganda. You want to talk about Nazis, get yourself
over to the Holocaust Museum. You go see what Nazis did. It is
despicable that we use that and we allow it, and we sit here
like somehow it is regular.
Mr. Chairman, I welcome you back. I am sorry. We were
trying to talk together and, you know, get you through the
hearing, but I look forward potentially to talking to you at a
future session. So, thank you. I yield back.
Chairman Comer. [Presiding.] The gentleman yields back. The
Chair now recognizes myself for questions.
Mr. Mattis, you mentioned in your testimony that there was
a shortage of expertise in the Federal Government with respect
to China. Would you say that our government is ill-prepared for
what China currently has with respect to their schemes against
our government and our way of life? Does the government have a
plan?
Mr. Mattis. I would put it this way, that we do not have
enough China expertise to execute our own policy. For example,
we are asking a department to enforce a major piece of trade
legislation, and yet for a couple of years they were relying on
Google Translate for their language resource.
Chairman Comer. And explain why that is important that we
do have a plan, and that is the purpose of this hearing. And I
apologize that there are, you know, clowns like the last
questioner that get off topic, but explain why that is
important to have a plan.
Mr. Mattis. Well, in some form or another, nearly every
Federal department has some role to play, whether it is because
they fund research, and, therefore, they have a responsibility
to maintain the integrity of that research. They have a
responsibility in some form to protecting constitutional rights
and the exercise of those which the CCP is attempting to
restrict inside the United States. So, you can kind of go down
each one and see that.
Chairman Comer. Exactly. Colonel Newsham, what is
unrestricted warfare, China's master plan to destroy America?
Colonel Newsham. What unrestricted warfare refers to is
Chinese approach to going after its enemy, and the United
States is the one they call their main enemy.
Chairman Comer. That publication states that the
battlefield will be everywhere, right?
Colonel Newsham. That is right.
Chairman Comer. What does that mean for America?
Colonel Newsham. It means anything goes. You know, we tend
to expect a war to start on the day the shooting starts and we
say we are at war. To the Chinese, we are already at war.
Chairman Comer. You have said that the U.S. needs its own
political warfare strategy against the Chinese Communist Party.
What should that look like?
Colonel Newsham. Well, it needs to be, first a
comprehensive plan that you use your every tool you have got,
economic, financial, media, propaganda. But more than anything,
you have got to have an awareness you are actually at war, and
then you have got to have somebody who is responsible for
running it. I cannot see who in the USG is the person who does
political warfare. I saw an interview with a State Department
official testifying recently, and you could tell he had no idea
about political warfare. Someone has got to be in charge and
responsible for it.
Chairman Comer. So, General Spalding, how does the Chinese
Communist Party differ from the Soviet Union in its approach to
political warfare against America?
Dr. Spalding. I do not think it differs in its approach. It
differs in the tools it has available to itself. So, the Soviet
Union was cutoff from the global economy, so globalization was
not a thing, and it was not a part of it. And then furthermore,
Silicon Valley had not developed all the tools of influence and
technological reach into our own homes into each individual
citizen. So, those tools far surpass anything that were
available to the Soviet Union in terms of the active measures.
Chairman Comer. So, how could our methods of combating the
Soviet Union work against the Chinese Communist Party?
Dr. Spalding. Well, as I mentioned previously, bringing
back COCOM, bringing back the U.S. Information Agency, making
public diplomacy an independent effort within the executive
branch and then focusing all the agencies and departments of
the executive branch on this political warfare. For example,
right now, you have, within the White House you have the
National Security Council focused on national security,
National Economic Council focused on trade, and they fight over
what challenges are coming in because of the Chinese Communist
Party. They need to be united.
Chairman Comer. Is there any existing agency or any
existing person within the government, our present government
structure, that you would put in charge of trying to educate
this Administration in the cabinets and the divisions within
each cabinet about the potential perils of the CCP?
Dr. Spalding. Well, that is the job of the intelligence
agencies, but they are not really focused on political warfare.
So, unless you get them to basically lead off that effort in
terms of explaining to the executive branch what political
warfare is, and until you unite all the agencies and
departments against this threat, you are not going to do
anything against it.
Chairman Comer. Mr. Mattis--I will ask each of you--is
there a single person or agency in the government that should
be in charge of that? You agree with the intelligence
community, or you have----
Mr. Mattis. I think this is fairly clearly the job of the
President, the Secretary of State, the National Security
Council, and the supporting staff. And when we have done this
well in the past, we had an integrated system that was looking
at what was going on, and we were also looking at the other
tools that we had at our disposal. You know, we understood the
Marshall Plan, the art of political warfare, and we understood
some of our education, cultural exchange, the idea of putting
Americans abroad so that other countries could have a true
experience of Americans rather than the Soviet propaganda.
Chairman Comer. Right. Colonel, you have a response?
Colonel Newsham. Well, it is a tough challenge. I would
say, if you run it out of the National Security Council, it
could work, but you have to have the right people, some people
who understand that have that personality that can make it
work.
Chairman Comer. So, it looks like you have to have the
will. You have to first of all understand the threat that China
poses. You have to have the will to combat China, before we
could task agencies and specific people with a business model
to combat China's growing influence in the United States, and
it is kind of like you have to have a will to secure the border
before you can secure the border, so I hope that we can do
that.
You know, we have seen from Representative Khanna and
Representative Krishnamoorthi who have serious credible
questions today, and I appreciate that, that this is a huge
problem in America. And it does not sound like the government
right now is taking it very seriously, and we need to change
that, and I hope that the work of this Committee moving
forward, and hopefully we can continue to find a couple of
reasonable Members of the Committee on the other side of the
aisle to work in a bipartisan manner to see that that happens.
So, that concludes our questioning. I want to thank our
witnesses again today for your testimony. With that, and
without objection, all Members have 5 legislative days within
which to submit materials.
Mr. Raskin. Mr. Chairman, are we doing closings?
Chairman Comer. I had not planned on it.
Mr. Raskin. Oh, I thought your staff had told us that we
were----
Chairman Comer. OK, I will yield you, how much were you
told?
Mr. Raskin. Just, like, 45 minutes, something like that.
Chairman Comer. Oh, yes.
Mr. Raskin. No, I am happy to take a minute or two,
whatever you think we need to close.
Chairman Comer. Take a minute.
Mr. Raskin. You are very kind and generous, Mr. Chairman. I
want to thank Professor Snyder, the Minority witness, for his
truly extraordinary testimony today, which I know will be of
great assistance to the Committee, for his brilliant
scholarship, and above all, for his passionate citizenship
because not everybody would take the time out of the middle of
their teaching week to come do it. So, thank you.
There were several words that recurred through the day. One
of them was ``authoritarianism,'' one of them was
``corruption,'' and one of them was ``propaganda,'' and the
opposite of all those things is really what we need to be
seeking. The opposite of authoritarianism is democracy and
freedom. The authoritarian model is all about corruption, and
the opposite of that model of government is government in the
public interest for the common good rather than for the small
clique that surrounds the leader and his family, whoever gets
into power. They use propaganda in order to prop up the system
in order to fool people to divide people to set people against
each other, and the opposite of propaganda is education.
So, I want to thank you, Professor Snyder, for
participating in that, and your fellow witnesses for
contributing to our education. But one of the ways that we lose
to authoritarian states is if they can get their claws into our
leaders, either through money or kompromat or psychological
manipulation. I just want to show you what happens when our
leaders cave in to China and to Russia.
[Chart]
So, here are some of the tweets that were sent out by the
last President about President Xi and China: ``smart,
brilliant, everything perfect,'' ``we love each other,''
``friend of mine, a very, very good man,'' ``there is nobody
like that, the look, the brain, the whole thing,'' my feeling
toward you is an incredibly warm one,'' ``a brilliant man,''
``if you went all over Hollywood to look for somebody to play
the role of President Xi, you couldn't find it. There is nobody
like that, the look, the brain, the whole thing.'' And here is
the ex-President on Putin. ``His invasion of Ukraine is genius
and pretty savvy,'' ``Putin was smart,'' ``the man has very
strong control over a country,'' ``a tough cookie with great
charm.''
So, we need some democratic self-respect in order to combat
the propaganda, and I am also happy that we saw today a few
Members actually demonstrate what propaganda running through
American politicians looks like. Thank you for calling this
very significant and important hearing, Mr. Chairman, and I
yield back to you.
Chairman Comer. Yield back. I will recognize myself for
closing remarks.
Again, I want to thank our three credible witnesses that
were here today to talk about this subject. This is something
that this Committee is going to take very seriously moving
forward. We recognize the fact that our government does not
have a plan to combat China's growing influence, and we
recognize that it does not appear they recognize the threat.
In the private sector, I am a farmer. All my life I have
owned farms, graduated from Western Kentucky University with a
degree in agriculture. I was Commissioner of Agriculture in
Kentucky, which is an elected statewide office, before I came
to Congress. And one of the things that I always talked about,
agriculture, was that in agriculture we are the one industry
that had a trade surplus with China, but that has changed in
the last 12 months. China now has a trade surplus with us in
agriculture. And when you talk about national security, there
is no greater threat to our national security than the need to
have a safe, healthy, reliable food supply. I wanted to mention
that because the growing influence of China is now a major
threat to every industry in America.
Ms. McClain talked about the electric vehicle industry and
the dependence on China, and that seems like the position of
this Administration, to push everything to the electric
vehicles. Well, that makes us even more dependent on China.
That is a problem. The policies are a problem. But we need to
recognize the fact that China manipulates our currency, China
steals our intellectual property and our patent. So, our
private companies that invest billions of dollars in research
and development, it is all being stolen by the Chinese
Communist Party.
And then the last thing, our education system in America.
What is very concerning to me and something I did not know
until we started this investigation was how much anonymous
money flows into our research universities in America, and the
University of Penn is at the top of the list. And who worked at
the University of Penn before they came back to working for the
government? The Secretary of State and the current President of
the United States.
I think this is a problem because what we have seen by Dr.
Foxx, who is presiding over her own committee hearing down the
hall on antisemitism in our public universities, is that we
have got a lot of indoctrination that is taking place in our
universities that is antidemocratic. I believe it is what is
fueling a lot of the support for Hamas, and it seems like
growing faction of the Democrat Party now, so this is----
Mr. Raskin. There is not a single member of our party who
supports Hamas.
Chairman Comer. That seems to be a very huge issue in
America, the disinformation campaign that is taking place in
our universities, but where is it being funded? And I think
that one of the things that we need to focus on in this
Committee is greater transparency with where all this money is
coming from into these universities. Yes, we have done a decent
job identifying the problem with TikTok and the House has acted
on that, but I think we need to go a lot further, and I think
that we need better preparedness within our Federal Government
in every agency. Whether it is the Department of Agriculture,
or the Department of Education, the Department of Defense, the
Department of Energy. Every agency needs to first recognize
that we have a threat from China. And second, we need to have a
plan to combat that threat to identify when China does
something counter to our interest and then have a plan to
combat that.
So, I think you all did a great job today talking about
that. I appreciate your time and look forward to working with
you all in the future.
Mr. Raskin. Mr. Chairman, I have a unanimous consent
request. I want to introduce into the record the White House's
Indo-Pacific strategy released in February 2022, reaffirming
the country's commitment to deterring PRC military aggression
in the Taiwan Strait, and a fact sheet detailing the $4 billion
requested in the President's budget request for 2025 for a more
free, open, and secure Indo-Pacific bolstering U.S. alliances.
Chairman Comer. Without objection, so ordered.
With that, and without objection, all Members have 5
legislative days within which to submit materials and
additional written questions for the witnesses, which will be
forwarded to the witnesses.
If there is no further business, without objection, the
Committee stands adjourned.
[Whereupon, at 1:57 p.m., the Committee was adjourned.]
[all]