[House Hearing, 118 Congress]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]


                           ADVANCING TRIBAL SELF-
                               DETERMINATION:
                        EXAMINING THE OPPORTUNITIES AND 
                         CHALLENGES OF THE 477 PROGRAM

=======================================================================

                           OVERSIGHT HEARING

                               BEFORE THE

               SUBCOMMITTEE ON INDIAN AND INSULAR AFFAIRS

                                 OF THE

                     COMMITTEE ON NATURAL RESOURCES
                     U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

                    ONE HUNDRED EIGHTEENTH CONGRESS

                             SECOND SESSION

                               __________

                       Wednesday, March 20, 2024

                               __________

                           Serial No. 118-106

                               __________

       Printed for the use of the Committee on Natural Resources
       
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                   U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE                    
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                     COMMITTEE ON NATURAL RESOURCES

                     BRUCE WESTERMAN, AR, Chairman
                    DOUG LAMBORN, CO, Vice Chairman
                  RAUL M. GRIJALVA, AZ, Ranking Member

Doug Lamborn, CO			Grace F. Napolitano, CA
Robert J. Wittman, VA			Gregorio Kilili Camacho Sablan, 	
Tom McClintock, CA			    CNMI
Paul Gosar, AZ				Jared Huffman, CA
Garret Graves, LA			Ruben Gallego, AZ
Aumua Amata C. Radewagen, AS		Joe Neguse, CO
Doug LaMalfa, CA			Mike Levin, CA
Daniel Webster, FL			Katie Porter, CA
Jenniffer Gonzalez-Colon, PR		Teresa Leger Fernandez, NM
Russ Fulcher, ID			Melanie A. Stansbury, NM
Pete Stauber, MN			Mary Sattler Peltola, AK
John R. Curtis, UT			Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, NY
Tom Tiffany, WI				Kevin Mullin, CA
Jerry Carl, AL				Val T. Hoyle, OR
Matt Rosendale, MT			Sydney Kamlager-Dove, CA
Lauren Boebert, CO			Seth Magaziner, RI
Cliff Bentz, OR				Nydia M. Velazquez, NY
Jen Kiggans, VA				Ed Case, HI
Jim Moylan, GU				Debbie Dingell, MI
Wesley P. Hunt, TX			Susie Lee, NV
Mike Collins, GA
Anna Paulina Luna, FL
John Duarte, CA
Harriet M. Hageman, WY

                    Vivian Moeglein, Staff Director
                      Tom Connally, Chief Counsel
                 Lora Snyder, Democratic Staff Director
                   http://naturalresources.house.gov
                                 ------                                

               SUBCOMMITTEE ON INDIAN AND INSULAR AFFAIRS

                     HARRIET M. HAGEMAN, WY, Chair

                JENNIFFER GONZALEZ-COLON, PR, Vice Chair

               TERESA LEGER FERNANDEZ, NM, Ranking Member

Aumua Amata C. Radewagen, AS         Gregorio Kilili Camacho Sablan, 
Doug LaMalfa, CA                         CNMI
Jenniffer Gonzalez-Colon, PR         Ruben Gallego, AZ
Jerry Carl, AL                       Nydia M. Velazquez, NY
Jim Moylan, GU                       Ed Case, HI
Bruce Westerman, AR, ex officio      Raul M. Grijalva, AZ, ex officio

                                 
                                 
                                CONTENTS

                                ----------                              
                                                                   Page

Hearing held on Wednesday, March 20, 2024........................     1

Statement of Members:

    Hageman, Hon. Harriet M., a Representative in Congress from 
      the State of Wyoming.......................................     1
    Leger Fernandez, Hon. Teresa, a Representative in Congress 
      from the State of New Mexico...............................     2

Statement of Witnesses:

    Newland, Hon. Bryan, Assistant Secretary for Indian Affairs, 
      U.S. Department of the Interior, Washington, DC............     4
        Prepared statement of....................................     6

    Friend, Hon. Billy, Chief, Wyandotte Nation, Wyandotte, 
      Oklahoma...................................................     9
        Prepared statement of....................................    10

    Spoonhunter, Hon. Lee, Co-Chair, Northern Arapaho Tribe 
      Business Council, Ethete, Wyoming..........................    12
        Prepared statement of....................................    13

    Zientek, Margaret, Co-Chair, P.L. 102-477 Tribal Work Group, 
      Shawnee, Oklahoma..........................................    15
        Prepared statement of....................................    17

Additional Materials Submitted for the Record:

    Submissions for the Record by Representative Westerman

        Cook Inlet Tribal Council, Gloria O'Neill, President and 
          CEO, Statement for the Record..........................    27
        U.S. Department of Justice, Assistant Attorney General 
          Carlos Uriarte, Letter to Chair Hageman................    32

    Submissions for the Record by Representative Grijalva

        United South and Eastern Tribes Sovereignty Protection 
          Fund, Statement for the Record.........................    33
                                     


 
  OVERSIGHT HEARING ON ADVANCING TRIBAL SELF-DETERMINATION: EXAMINING.
                    THE OPPORTUNITIES AND CHALLENGES
                           OF THE 477 PROGRAM

                              ----------                              


                       Wednesday, March 20, 2024

                     U.S. House of Representatives

               Subcommittee on Indian and Insular Affairs

                     Committee on Natural Resources

                             Washington, DC

                              ----------                              

    The Subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 2:28 p.m., in 
Room 1324, Longworth House Office Building, Hon. Harriet M. 
Hageman [Chairwoman of the Subcommittee] presiding.
    Present: Representatives Hageman, Carl, LaMalfa; and Leger 
Fernandez.

    Ms. Hageman. The Subcommittee on Indian and Insular Affairs 
will come to order. Without objection, the Chair is authorized 
to declare a recess of the Subcommittee at any time.
    The Subcommittee is meeting today to hear testimony on 
Advancing Tribal Self-Determination: Examining the 
Opportunities and Challenges of the 477 Program. Under 
Committee Rule 4(f), any oral opening statements at hearings 
are limited to the Chairman and the Ranking Minority Member. I 
therefore ask unanimous consent that all other Members' opening 
statements be made part of the hearing record if they are 
submitted in accordance with Committee Rule 3(o).
    Without objection, so ordered.
    I will now recognize myself for an opening statement.

 STATEMENT OF THE HON. HARRIET M. HAGEMAN, A REPRESENTATIVE IN 
               CONGRESS FROM THE STATE OF WYOMING

    Ms. Hageman. Today, the Subcommittee will hear testimony on 
Advancing Tribal Self-Determination: Examining the 
Opportunities and Challenges of the 477 Program. This continues 
the Subcommittee's focus on tribal autonomy and the ways 
Congress can support tribal self-determination, which has been 
one of the priorities that we have pursued over the last year 
since I have been Chairman of this Subcommittee.
    In 1992, the Indian Employment Training and Related 
Services Demonstration Act was signed into law. The Act 
authorized a demonstration program that enables tribes to 
coordinate and integrate multiple Federal programs focused on 
employment and related support services into one program with 
one budget and one annual report. We now know this program as 
the 477 Program, referencing the public law number that 
established it.
    Over the past three decades, the 477 Program has been 
highly successful. Current statistics show 78 active 477 Plans 
across 38 Federal programs representing approximately 300 
tribes. Tribes continue to use and integrate new Federal 
programs into their tribal 477 Plans citing the benefits of 
budget flexibility, reduced inefficiencies, and ability to 
prioritize the programs that best help their tribal members.
    When a tribe seeks to establish a 477 Program, tribal 
members seeking to gain job skills or find better employment 
can often fill out one form and go through one process rather 
than needing to apply to multiple programs and to fill out 
multiple forms. This flexibility and streamlined reporting 
allows these 477 Programs to focus more on providing assistance 
and guidance to tribal members rather than spending those 
resources on multiple burdensome reporting requirements.
    In 2017, Congress passed the Indian Employment Training and 
Related Services Consolidation Act of 2017, which made the 477 
Program permanent, expanded the number of eligible secretarial 
departments to 12, and cemented the Bureau of Indian Affairs' 
role as the lead agency for the 477 Program through the 
Division of Workforce Development. The 2017 amendments also 
required a Memorandum of Agreement, or MOA, to be completed by 
all 12 secretarial departments outlining how the law would be 
implemented.
    However, the first MOA released in 2018 was released and 
signed by all parties without any tribal consultation. It was 
also criticized by both tribes and the Members of Congress as 
something that did not follow the intent and letter of the 2017 
amendments. A new MOA was written and finalized with tribal 
input in 2022 and all 12 secretarial departments signed the new 
MOA and the BIA and tribes are now in the process of 
implementing and operating under it.
    This Subcommittee has heard concerns from tribes related to 
the implementation of the 2022 MOA, particularly with adding 
new programs to a tribal 477 Program and ongoing challenges of 
477 Program funds not being released to the tribes in a timely 
manner. I will also mention that the American Indian Population 
and Labor Force Report has not been published biannually, as 
required by law, since the responsibility was moved by the 2017 
amendments from the BIA to the Department of Labor.
    I look forward to a robust discussion today about some of 
the challenges the tribes have encountered when they seek to 
expand their 477 Programs. I want to thank the witnesses for 
being with us today and look forward to continuing the 
conversation on improving tools that are available to support 
tribal self-determination.
    The Chair now recognizes the Ranking Minority Member for 
her statement.

STATEMENT OF THE HON. TERESA LEGER FERNANDEZ, A REPRESENTATIVE 
            IN CONGRESS FROM THE STATE OF NEW MEXICO

    Ms. Leger Fernandez. Thank you very much, Madam Chair, for 
holding this hearing, and thank you to each of our witnesses 
for coming to DC, I traveled with some of you, to share your 
stories and experience because it is essential that we hear 
directly by those who are most impacted about both the 
obstacles and what it means when those obstacles are removed.
    Public Law 102-477 really allows tribes to work with the 
Department of the Interior to consolidate Federal funding and 
programs for employment and training across 12 separate 
agencies and manage under one 477 Plan. We have heard 
repeatedly how important this is because we should not limit 
ourselves just to the Department of the Interior or IHS. There 
are so many other ways in which tribes interact with the 
Federal Government and we must incorporate them and encourage 
tribes to take over this because they know best how to handle 
issues on their own reservations and for the people that are 
their constituents.
    In this Subcommittee, we often hear about the 
administrative burdens tribes face in accessing those Federal 
programs and funding. The 477 Program is one of those key 
programs to address that issue of accessing Federal programs 
and it can considerably lower the administrative burden tribes 
face and simplify the reporting process. The program gives 
tribes the authority to design and implement workforce 
development and job training programs that can address critical 
workforce needs in the communities and ultimately support 
tribal self-determination.
    The program's track record of success has led to the 
Department of the Interior overseeing 78 477 Plans representing 
298 federally recognized tribes. Over half of all federally 
recognized tribes are using this program. In my home state of 
New Mexico, the Pueblo Laguna was one of the first tribes in 
the state to use the 477 Program, and I know of its success 
there. They have used it to provide work experience 
opportunities to youth, train and certify more teachers, and 
support vocational rehabilitation services for their community.
    In 2022, the Biden administration renegotiated the 
interagency Memorandum of Agreement on the implementation of 
the program. This new MOA resulted in an increase in proposals 
for the 477 Program. The 2022 MOA streamlined plan approvals 
and reaffirmed the authority of the Secretary of the Interior 
to approve those 477 Plans. And most importantly, the agencies 
worked directly with tribes and incorporated feedback from the 
tribes themselves, which sounds like it would be a no brainer 
to do that, right? This is about providing you with the funds 
you need to carry out this workforce training. Unfortunately, 
as the Chair noted, the prior administration had not 
incorporated and conducted this consultation when that was 
negotiated in the 477 in 2018.
    I look forward to hearing from the tribal witnesses here 
today regarding the impact of the program and success stories 
we can build on. I also know there have been issues with 
certain agencies following the intent of the law and that there 
have been delays and that those delays directly impact tribes 
trying to provide these services. I want to make sure that we 
engage and are honest about those challenges and how things 
like actually talking about it out loud can sometimes unstick 
things, right? I say in my office that we are the WD-40 for 
Federal agencies and that WD-40 should be applied liberally 
because too many things get stuck, don't they, Madam Chair?
    So, the 477 Program should be a model to follow across all 
agencies to ensure programs work efficiently for tribes and 
that we are indeed supporting economic development and tribal 
self-determination throughout Indian Country.
    Thank you again to all the witnesses and thank you for 
holding this hearing, Madam Chair.
    I yield back.

    Ms. Hageman. Thank you very much. And now I will introduce 
the witnesses for our panel. The Honorable Bryan Newland, 
Assistant Secretary for Indian Affairs, Department of the 
Interior, Washington, DC. You probably sometimes feel like you 
live here. Maybe there is a sleeping bag under the desk up 
here. But thank you for coming back and keeping us informed of 
what is going on with your agency.
    The Honorable Billy Friend, Chief, Wyandotte Nation, 
Wyandotte, Oklahoma. Thank you for being here.
    The Honorable Lee Spoonhunter, Co-Chair, Northern Arapaho 
Business Council, Ethete, Wyoming. It is always wonderful to 
have you testifying before our Committee.
    And Margaret Zientek, Co-Chair, P.L. 102-477 Tribal Work 
Group, Shawnee, Oklahoma. Welcome. We appreciate you being here 
and look forward to hearing your testimony.
    Let me remind the witnesses that under Committee Rules, 
they must limit their oral statements to 5 minutes, but their 
entire statement will appear in the hearing record. To begin 
your testimony, please press the ``talk'' button on the 
microphone. We use timing lights. When you begin, the light 
will turn green. When you have 1 minute left, the light will 
turn yellow. And at the end of 5 minutes, the light will turn 
red, and I will ask you to please complete your statement. I 
will also allow all witnesses on the panel to testify before 
Member questioning.
    The Chair now recognizes the Honorable Bryan Newland for 5 
minutes.

 STATEMENT OF THE HON. BRYAN NEWLAND, ASSISTANT SECRETARY FOR 
INDIAN AFFAIRS, U.S. DEPARTMENT OF THE INTERIOR, WASHINGTON, DC

    Mr. Newland. Thank you, Madam Chair. Good afternoon, Chair 
Hageman, Ranking Member Leger Fernandez, and members of the 
Subcommittee.
    My name is Bryan Newland. I have the privilege of serving 
as the Assistant Secretary for Indian Affairs at the Department 
of the Interior, and I appreciate the opportunity to share the 
Department's views on Public Law 477 today.
    As you know, Madam Chair, this law allows tribes to 
consolidate Federal funding from 12 agencies across the Federal 
Government for employment, training, and related services. This 
law empowers tribes to provide holistic services to clients 
through a one-stop shop model that is consistent with self-
determination. Tribes with approved plans under Public Law 477 
have reported a significant reduction in their administrative 
burdens which allows them to focus on service delivery.
    The Department is proud of the success we have had working 
with Federal partners and tribal leaders to advance self-
determination under this law. In October 2022, each of the 
Federal partners signed an interagency Memorandum of Agreement 
that conforms to the statute and reflects the Administration's 
commitment to supporting tribal sovereignty. We work to ensure 
that tribes participated in the development of that MOA.
    This new agreement streamlines plan approval procedures and 
reaffirms the Secretary of the Interior's authority to approve 
tribal plans under Public Law 477. This approach supports 
tribal sovereignty and self-determination, it helps reduce 
joblessness in Indian Country, it streamlines service delivery, 
and it improves Federal customer service. After renegotiation 
of that agreement, the Department has facilitated an agreement 
now on 26 new 477 Plans, and as of today, the Department 
oversees 78 477 Plans from 298 tribes, more than half of all 
federally recognized tribes in the country.
    Following the renegotiation of the MOA, tribes have 
integrated programs from 7 of the 12 eligible Federal agencies 
into 477 Plans. This law is beneficial for tribes because it 
consolidates funding streams to a single point of access at the 
Department as well as reporting requirements from each of the 
Federal programs included in the tribal plan. Tribes with 477 
Plans submit a single report under use of integrated funds 
rather than multiple reports to multiple agencies for multiple 
programs. This reduces the duplication of services and allows 
for the central valuation of programs.
    The 477 model of consolidated funds and streamlining 
reporting has been a success. Participating tribes have stated 
that it is the best delivery system for those programs, meets 
their unique needs, while also allowing for appropriate 
oversight. And, Madam Chair, as you noted at this 
Subcommittee's recent hearing, the last time I was here a 
couple of weeks ago, this principle of self-determination 
allows tribes to engage in economic development in a way that 
meets their basic and best interests.
    While the Department is proud of the success that the 
Federal partners have achieved in implementing this law, we 
have identified the areas for potential growth and refining of 
Public Law 477. First, under the law, the Department expects 
Federal partners to transfer funds within 30 days of approval 
of their 477 Plan. A delay in transferring funds may hamper 
tribes' ability to deliver services to their citizens.
    Second, the number of Federal programs integrated in the 
477 Plans has grown significantly. As the lead agency under 
Public Law 477, the Department is responsible for helping 
Federal partners implement this law. Just this year, we are 
providing technical assistance to 29 tribes and we are engaged 
in discussions with two new agencies regarding integration of 
their programs into Public Law 477, and it is a challenge to 
keep pace with the significant growth in this program.
    Finally, Public Law 477 is limited in scope. Only programs 
implemented for certain purposes related to employment, 
training, and related services may be integrated into Public 
Law 477. One of the biggest challenges we face in implementing 
this law is determining whether a program is eligible. Public 
Law 477 empowers tribes to improve the effectiveness of their 
programs, it reduces joblessness in Indian Country, and it 
serves tribal goals consistent with the policy of self-
determination, and it does all of this while reducing 
administrative, reporting, and accounting costs.
    Madam Chair, Ranking Member, members of the Subcommittee, I 
want to thank you again for the invitation to be here, it is 
always a pleasure, and I look forward to answering any 
questions you may have.

    [The prepared statement of Mr. Newland follows:]
  Prepared Statement of Bryan Newland, Assistant Secretary for Indian 
           Affairs, United States Department of the Interior

    Aanii (Hello)! Good afternoon, Chair Hageman, Ranking Member Leger 
Fernandez, and members of the Subcommittee. My name is Bryan Newland, 
and I am the Assistant Secretary for Indian Affairs at the U.S. 
Department of the Interior (Department or DOI). Thank you for the 
opportunity to discuss opportunities and challenges of Public Law 102-
477 as amended (PL 477).
Background on PL 477

    PL 477 allows Tribes to consolidate Federal funding from any of 
twelve agencies for employment, training, and related services programs 
based on a showing that a Tribe is implementing the funding for that 
purpose. PL 477 empowers Tribes to provide holistic service to clients 
through a ``one-stop shop'' model, a model especially poignant for 
clients who would benefit from assistance to support their continued 
employment, training, and self-sufficiency goals. Tribes with approved 
plans under PL 477 (477 plans) have reported a significant reduction of 
their administrative burden due to the consolidated funding streams and 
reporting requirements, which allows them to focus more on direct 
service delivery.
    In passing Public Law 102-477 in 1992 (1992 Act), Congress intended 
to reduce unemployment in Tribal communities by creating employment 
opportunities consistent with the principle of Tribal self-
determination. The 1992 Act was also intended to increase the 
effectiveness of employment and training programs by reducing and 
streamlining administrative requirements through the consolidation of 
budgeting, reporting, and auditing systems. However, the 1992 Act was 
only a demonstration project and applied only to programs of the 
Departments of the Interior, Labor, Education, and Health and Human 
Services.
    In 2000, Congress amended the 1992 Act to allow Tribes and Tribal 
organizations more flexibility to use their funds for employment 
creation and to provide clarity on waiver requests in Tribal plans. In 
2017, Congress again amended the law in the Indian Employment, Training 
and Related Services Consolidation Act of 2017 (P.L. 115-93) (2017 
amendments). Congress made clear that the purpose of PL 477 is to 
facilitate the ability of federally recognized Tribes and Tribal 
organizations to integrate the eligible employment, training, and 
related services they provide from different Federal sources, and is 
aimed at reducing administrative, reporting, and accounting costs. 
Congress also directed that the Department deliver any integrated PL 
477 funding to a Tribe under contracting or compacting mechanisms 
established by the Indian Self-Determination Education and Assistance 
Act (P.L. 93-638) (ISDEAA).
    Most notably in the 2017 amendments, Congress made the 
demonstration project permanent, and expanded PL 477 to include 
eligible programs from the Departments of Agriculture, Commerce, 
Energy, Homeland Security, Housing and Urban Development, 
Transportation, Veterans Affairs, and Justice. Today, there are twelve 
Federal Departments that are authorized to participate in PL 477 
(Federal partners).
Interagency Memorandum of Agreement

    The 2017 amendments directed the Federal partners to enter into a 
Memorandum of Agreement (MOA) that governed implementation of PL 477. 
In the last Administration, the Federal partners signed an MOA that was 
written without Tribal consultation and was signed over the objection 
of Tribes. Tribal governments sought renegotiation of the MOA for 
several years thereafter.
    In response, in October 2021, Vice President Harris committed that 
the Biden Administration would ``renegotiate this agreement to support 
Tribal sovereignty.'' After months of coordination with Tribes and 
Federal partners, in October 2022, each of the Federal partners signed 
an updated MOA that conforms closely to the statute and reflects the 
Administration's commitment to supporting Tribal sovereignty.
    The new MOA streamlines plan approval procedures and re-affirms the 
decisional authority of the Secretary of the Interior regarding Tribal 
PL 477 plan approval. This approach serves Tribal needs and furthers 
key Administration policies, such as encouraging Tribal sovereignty and 
self-determination to reduce joblessness in Indian Country, 
streamlining service delivery, and improving Federal customer service.
    At present, the Department is working with Federal partners and 
Tribes to update the annual reporting form that Tribes use after they 
have integrated their programs through PL 477. The Department looks 
forward to sharing more information upon completion of a consensus 
draft.
PL 477 Implementation and Successes

    The Department is proud of the success we and our Federal partners 
have achieved by promoting Tribal self-determination under PL 477. 
Executive Order 14112 (EO) builds on this success and furthers it by 
directing us to ensure that Federal programs provide Tribal Nations 
flexibility to improve economic growth, address the specific needs of 
their communities, and realize their vision for the future. The EO's 
policies and directives will continue to guide the Department as we 
implement PL 477.
    As of March 2024, the Department oversees seventy-eight 477 plans. 
Those plans represent 298 federally recognized Tribes, which is over 
half of all federally recognized Tribes. Following the renegotiated 
MOA, Tribes have integrated programs from seven of the twelve eligible 
Federal agencies into PL 477 plans: the Departments of the Interior, 
Health and Human Services, Labor, Commerce, Education, Housing and 
Urban Development, and Justice.
    The Department observed a significant increase in Tribal proposals 
to integrate new Federal programs following the renegotiation of the 
MOA. Prior to 2023, there were just 18 programs integrated. After 
renegotiation of the MOA, Tribes proposed, and the Department 
facilitated agreement on, 26 new programs. These include programs from 
agencies participating in PL 477 for the first time--such as the 
Department of Commerce's American Indian, Alaska Native, and Native 
Hawaiian Projects, and the Department of Housing and Urban 
Development's Indian Housing Block Grant--and programs from agencies 
with a longer history in the PL 477 program--the Department of 
Education's American Indian Vocational Rehabilitation Services program, 
the Department of Labor's CAREER National Dislocated Worker Grants, and 
the Department of Health and Human Services' Stephanie Tubbs Jones 
Child Welfare Services Program. From these programs, the Department 
facilitated the transfer of almost $316 million to PL 477-participating 
Tribes and Tribal organizations in FY 23 and approximately $242 million 
in FY 24 to date.
    PL 477 is beneficial for Tribes because, in addition to 
consolidating funding streams to a single point of access at the 
Department, it also serves to consolidate reporting requirements from 
each of the Federal programs. Tribes with 477 plans submit a single 
report on their use of integrated funds, rather than multiple reports 
for each program. Consolidation of multiple budgets to a single budget 
reduces the duplication of services across programs, allows Tribes to 
better use those funds, and allows for the centralized evaluation of 
programs and operations. Tribes with integrated funds in PL 477 
participate in annual A-133 financial audits, reviewed by the Bureau of 
Indian Affairs (BIA), and on-site monitoring reviews to ensure 
compliance with the approved 477 plan. The BIA has not found any 
significant incidents of non-compliance with 477 plans. The 477 model 
of consolidating funds and streamlining reporting has been a success--
participating Tribes have stated that it is the best delivery system 
for those programs and meets their unique needs while also allowing for 
appropriate oversight of Federal funds.
    The Department fosters collaboration with Federal partners by 
coordinating monthly and annual meetings on the implementation of PL 
477 with all twelve Federal agencies and the Tribes and Tribal 
organizations that have approved PL 477 plans. These meetings serve as 
a forum to discuss programmatic questions about integrating Federal 
funding, reporting requirements, and implementation of administrative 
rules and program instructions that impact participating Tribes. The 
Department also provides technical assistance on request to Tribes 
interested in PL 477 and to Federal partners about integration. This 
takes a variety of forms, including regional and national technical 
assistance with participating Federal agencies and Tribes, 
participation in joint technical assistance with each of the 
participating Federal agencies, or joint technical assistance with the 
Department and other Federal partners to 477 Tribes at regional and 
national trainings on PL 477-related topics. The Department works to 
ensure that participating Tribes comply with statutory and regulatory 
requirements.
    Finally, at this Subcommittee's March 6, 2024 hearing, Chair 
Hageman referenced the ISDEAA as a mechanism for economic development 
that Tribes may use to do what they deem to be in their best interests. 
The ISDEAA certainly allows for this goal and, with the additional 
flexibilities of PL 477, Tribes have access to another economic 
development tool--in some circumstances they can reallocate funds for 
job-creation activities. Participating Tribes are aware of this and 
have included economic development and job-creation activities in their 
PL 477 plans. Economic development activities may include micro-loan 
programs, coffee shops, language revitalization technology, support for 
software and video game development, capital investments in businesses, 
and childcare facilities. Job-creation activities include certification 
of traditional language teachers, cultural and historic tourism, 
licensed childcare providers, work experience, partnering post-
secondary and vocational technology institutions with science, 
technology, engineering, arts and mathematics fields, and cultural or 
traditional arts and crafts.
PL 477 Areas for Continued Growth

    While the Department is proud of the successes that the Federal 
partners have achieved in implementing PL 477, the Department has 
identified areas for potential growth and refining of the PL 477 
process.
    First, under PL 477, DOI expects Federal partners to transfer funds 
to the Department 30 days after DOI's integration decision. Given the 
variety of funding systems in use across the Federal Government, the 
need to close out agency grants mid-project period, and the creation of 
different financial accounts for each transferring program, Federal 
partners may not complete transfers within 30 days, which may be a 
potential issue to further examine within the Federal Government. A 
delay in transferring funds may hamper Tribes' ability to deliver 
integrated services to Tribal citizens who are eligible for those 
services. The Department is confident in carrying out its 
responsibility to foster cooperation and a positive working 
relationship among Federal partners in delivering funding to Tribes and 
will work toward streamlining the process.
    Second, as previously discussed, the number of Federal programs 
integrated into 477 plans has grown significantly. The Department, as 
the lead agency under PL 477, is responsible in helping Federal 
partners implement PL 477, as it is an important tool for Tribes. 
Furthermore, in 2024 alone, the Department is providing technical 
assistance to 29 Tribes and is engaged in discussions with two new 
agencies regarding potential integration into PL 477. It is challenging 
for Department staff to keep pace with the significant growth in this 
hugely successful program.
    Finally, PL 477 is limited in scope, in that only programs 
implemented for certain purposes related to employment, training, and 
related services may be integrated into PL 477. One of the biggest 
challenges agencies face in implementing PL 477 is determining whether 
a program is eligible for integration. Once that determination is made, 
Tribes may integrate programs and reallocate funds among the integrated 
programs. From there, the Department can ensure performance of the 
programmatic obligations, and Tribes can use the cost savings to 
further advance integrated program goals. Because Tribes know their 
communities and their needs better than the Department or other Federal 
partners, this model works well.

Conclusion

    PL 477 is a successful model for Tribes to provide employment, 
training, and related services using multiple Federal resources. PL 477 
empowers Tribes to improve the effectiveness of those services, reduce 
joblessness in Indian communities, and serve Tribally determined goals 
consistent with the policy of Tribal self-determination, while reducing 
administrative, reporting, and accounting costs.

    Chair Hageman, Ranking Member Leger Fernandez, and members of the 
Subcommittee, thank you for the opportunity to provide the Department's 
views.

                                 ______
                                 

    Ms. Hageman. Thank you, Mr. Newland, for your testimony.

    The Chair now recognizes the Honorable Billy Friend for 5 
minutes.

 STATEMENT OF THE HON. BILLY FRIEND, CHIEF, WYANDOTTE NATION, 
                      WYANDOTTE, OKLAHOMA

    Mr. Friend. Good afternoon, honorable members of the 
Subcommittee. I thank you for inviting me here today to discuss 
the 477 Program, a program whose principles could revolutionize 
the way the United States delivers on its trust and treaty 
obligations to Tribal Nations.
    The bedrock principle of the 477 Program is to enable 
tribes to exercise our inherent sovereignty in our use of our 
Federal funds. The 477 Program accomplishes this by 
streamlining and doing away with the administrative roadblocks 
and putting more decision making in the hands of Tribal 
Nations. Under the 477 Program, a tribe may combine Federal 
funding from programs operated across the 12 Federal agencies 
into one 477 Plan by the tribe to weave together the services 
associated with the integrated programs. The tribe pulls all of 
the integrated funding and can reallocate it across the 
services provided in the 477 Plan.
    Through our 477 Plan, we can best support our struggling 
community members' efforts to become self-sufficient. Despite 
the statutory mandates, some Federal agencies have tried to 
maintain control over the decision-making and monitoring 
processes within the 477 Program. To address these problems, we 
secured an amendment to the 477 statute in 2017. Yet, in 2018, 
the Federal agencies released an MOA that undid much of this 
work and contradicted the 477 statute. We were forced to 
wrestle with the government until securing a new MOA in 2022.
    Since then, the Department of the Interior has applied the 
477 eligibility criteria as directed by the 477 statute and 
approved many new programs for integration, yet issues remain. 
We believe these issues tie back to Federal agency concerns 
about losing control over the programs that they operate. Many 
are not accustomed to deferring to tribal sovereignty and 
relying on tribes to do what is best for our own people.
    Recently, we submitted a 477 Plan amendment to integrate 
new programs, including two programs that are operated by the 
Department of Justice. On February 26, DOI approved these 
programs' integration. Prior to DOI's approval, the DOJ 
representatives told us that they believed the programs were 
not eligible. They also said that they had separate legal 
authority allowing them to refuse to transfer program funding 
into our 477 Plan.
    We believe that they were taking the faulty and restrictive 
position that only programs authorized specifically for 
employment or training are eligible for inclusion in the 477 
Plan. The narrow interpretation is not new. Congress set out to 
make clear that supportive services are covered when it is 
amended in the statute in 2017, and this restrictive 
interpretation was an important problem fixed in the MOA. The 
lived reality is that achieving stability and self-sufficiency 
often requires wrap-around supportive services and Congress 
recognized that.
    But even the bigger program with the assertion the DOJ had 
was that they had independent legal authority to refuse 
transfer funding for a program approved by DOI. Again, Congress 
made clear that DOI has the exclusive authority to decide a 
program's 477 eligibility, and protecting the DOI's authority 
to do this was an important issue addressed in the fixed MOA. 
Further, the 477 statute makes clear that once DOI approves a 
program, a Federal partner agency is required to transfer 
program funds to DOI for integration within a set deadline.
    In closing, we believe there is a significant momentum 
towards a new way of thinking about expenditure of Federal 
funds by Tribal Nations. We see the evidence of this in 
Executive Order 14112 designed to reform Federal funding and 
promote the next era of tribal self-determination. We believe 
the foundational principles of the 477 Program can serve as a 
blueprint for this reform.
    Thank you.

    [The prepared statement of Mr. Friend follows:]
      Prepared Statement of Billy Friend, Chief, Wyandotte Nation

    Good afternoon, honorable members of the Subcommittee. I thank you 
for inviting me here today to talk about the important 477 Program--a 
program whose principles could revolutionize the way the United States 
delivers on its trust and treaty obligations to Tribal Nations.\1\
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \1\ The 477 Program was authorized under the Indian Employment, 
Training, and Related Services Demonstration Act of 1992, Public Law 
102-477, which was amended in 2000, Public Law 106-568, and again in 
2017, Public Law 115-93. The 477 Program is codified at 25 U.S.C. 
Sec. Sec. 3401-3417.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Benefits of 477 Program

    The bedrock principle of the 477 Program is to enable Tribal 
Nations to exercise our inherent sovereignty in our use of federal 
funds. The 477 Program accomplishes this by streamlining and doing away 
with administrative roadblocks and putting more decision making in the 
hands of Tribal Nations.
    Under the 477 Program, a Tribal Nation may combine federal funding 
from programs operated across 12 federal agencies into one 477 plan. 
The 477 plan is designed by the Tribal Nation to weave together the 
services associated with the integrated programs to best support Tribal 
community members in their efforts to achieve self-sufficiency.
    The 477 Program strips away all other reporting requirements tied 
to integrated programs, instead requiring one comprehensive annual 
report on implementation of the 477 plan.\2\ It also allows Tribal 
Nations to pool and reallocate federal funding integrated into a 477 
plan across the services provided through the 477 plan.\3\ Integrated 
funds that are not obligated or expended remain available without 
fiscal year limitation.\4\ These are only a few of the 477 Program's 
functions, all of which are designed to put more decision-making power 
in the hands of Tribal Nations so that we can better respond to the 
needs of our communities.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \2\ 25 U.S.C. Sec. 3410(a)(2)(A), (b).
    \3\ 25 U.S.C. Sec. Sec. 3413(a)(l)(A), (a)(2), 3410(b)(3).
    \4\ 25 U.S.C. Sec. 3413(b)(l).
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    The 477 statute sets forth three criteria that a program must 
satisfy to be eligible for integration into a 477 plan. First, the 
program must be operated by one of 12 covered federal agencies.\5\ 
Second, the program must be implemented for one of the enumerated and 
broad covered purposes--one of which is ``encouraging self-
sufficiency.'' \6\ Third, in order for a program to be eligible for 
integration into a 477 plan, it must receive a covered type of 
funding.\7\ When a program meets these three eligibility criteria, as 
determined by the Department of the Interior (DOI),\8\ it is eligible 
for integration into a 477 plan.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \5\ See 25 U.S.C. Sec. 3404(b).
    \6\ 25 U.S.C. Sec. 3404(a)(l)(A).
    \7\ 25 U.S.C. Sec. 3404(a)(l)(B), (a)(2).
    \8\ 25 U.S.C. Sec. 3407(a).
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Previous Implementation Issues and Steps Toward Resolution

    Despite these statutory mandates, some federal agency partners have 
taken steps to maintain control over the decision-making processes 
within the 477 Program as well as monitoring of approved 477 plans. For 
this reason, and to expand the 477 Program, Tribal Nations sought and 
secured an amendment to the 477 statute in 2017. Among other 
clarifications, Congress clarified that DOI is the decision-maker 
regarding program eligibility and that the covered program purposes are 
broad.
    Yet, the next year, the federal agencies released a Memorandum of 
Agreement (MOA) that undid much of this work and contradicted the 477 
statute.\9\ After Tribal Nations and Congress called for this MOA to be 
fixed, and Vice President Harris committed to addressing the issue, DOI 
in 2022 issued a new MOA signed by the federal partner agencies.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \9\ Letter from Tara Sweeney, Assistant Secretary-Indian Affairs, 
Dep't of Interior, to Tribal Leaders (Dec. 20, 2018) (transmitting 
Indian Employment, Training and Related Services Consolidation Act of 
2017 Interagency Memorandum of Agreement).
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Since then, DOI has applied the 477 program eligibility criteria as 
directed by the 477 statute and approved many new programs for 
integration.
Remaining Issues

    Despite these important steps, issues remain.

    For example, one federal partner took the position that some 
funding associated with a program recently approved for integration 
into our 477 plan could not be integrated. They claimed that, although 
we still have this funding and only recently received it from the 
federal agency, it was not eligible because it was tied to Fiscal Year 
2023.
    In another example, a federal partner took so long to approve our 
request for a no-cost extension that we were required to halt spending 
on that money and transfer costs to a different funding stream. 
Further, we are aware that one federal partner is still requiring 
quarterly reports on its integrated program despite the 477 Program's 
mandate that all underlying reporting requirements fall away. And some 
federal partners still require us to seek approval from them for 
specific expenditures.
    We believe these issues tie back to federal agency concerns about 
losing control over the programs they operate. Many are not accustomed 
to deferring to Tribal sovereignty and relying on Tribal Nations to do 
what is best for our people.
DOJ Statements Regarding Program Eligibility and Transfer of Funds

    Recently, we submitted a 477 plan amendment to integrate new 
programs, including two programs operated by the Department of Justice 
(DOJ): the Office for Victims of Crime Tribal Victim Services Set-Aside 
Program; and the Office on Violence Against Women Tribal Governments 
Program. On February 26, 2024, DOI approved these programs' integration 
into our 477 plan through a written record of decision.
    Prior to DOI's approval, during a virtual meeting that included 
many officials from DOJ and DOI, DOJ representatives told us they 
believed the programs were not eligible. Their position appeared to be 
based on the faulty and restrictive position that only programs 
authorized specifically for employment or training are eligible for 
inclusion in a 477 plan. The DOJ representatives also told us they 
believed they had separate legal authority that would allow them to 
refuse to transfer program funding from DOJ to DOI for integration into 
a 477 plan. They did not share the source of the legal authority they 
referenced.
    DOJ's narrow interpretation of covered 477 purposes was not new. 
Congress set out to make clear that supportive services are covered 
when it amended the statute in 2017, and this restrictive 
interpretation was an important problem fixed in the MOA. The lived 
reality is that achieving stability and self-sufficiency often requires 
wraparound supportive services to get community members up on their 
feet first.
    But the even bigger problem was DOJ's position that it had 
independent legal authority to refuse to transfer funding. This could 
lead to other federal partner agencies making this claim when they want 
to maintain control over a program. Again, Congress made clear that DOI 
has the exclusive authority to apply the 477 program eligibility 
criteria to approve or deny integration of a program. And protecting 
DOI's authority to do this was an important issue addressed in the MOA.
    The 477 statute also makes clear that, once a program is approved 
for integration, a federal partner agency is required to transfer 
program funds to DOI for integration into the 477 plan within a set 
deadline. A federal partner not later than 30 days after the date of 
apportionment must transfer the funding to DOI.\10\ And DOI must 
distribute funds to the Tribal Nation through its 477 plan by not later 
than 45 days after the date of receipt of the funds from the federal 
partner.\11\
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \10\ 25 U.S.C. Sec. 3412(a).
    \11\ 25 U.S.C. Sec. 3410(a)(2)(D)(ii).
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Conclusion

    We believe there is significant momentum towards a new way of 
thinking about expenditure of federal funds by Tribal Nations. We see 
evidence of this in Executive Order 14112, designed to reform federal 
funding and promote the next era of Tribal self-determination.\12\ We 
believe the foundational principles of the 477 Program can serve as a 
blueprint for this reform.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \12\ Exec. Order 14112, Reforming Federal Funding and Support for 
Tribal Nations To Better Embrace Our Trust Responsibilities and Promote 
the Next Era of Tribal Self-Determination (Jan. 22, 2024).

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                 ______
                                 

    Ms. Hageman. Thank you, Mr. Friend, for your testimony.
    The Chair now recognizes the Honorable Lee Spoonhunter for 
5 minutes.

   STATEMENT OF THE HON. LEE SPOONHUNTER, CO-CHAIR, NORTHERN 
        ARAPAHO TRIBE BUSINESS COUNCIL, ETHETE, WYOMING

    Mr. Spoonhunter. Madam Chair Hageman, Ranking Member Leger 
Fernandez, and members of the Subcommittee, thank you for 
inviting me to speak on behalf of the Northern Arapaho Tribe.
    My name is Lee Spoonhunter. I have been Co-Chairman of the 
Tribe's Business Council since 2016 and had the pleasure of 
serving as the Council's Chairman from 2018 to 2020. For over 
20 years, I have dedicated my career to public service and was 
a director of the Tribe's TANF and child support programs and 
served as the Northern Arapaho Sky People Higher Education 
Director. I also sit on HUD's Tribal Advisor Committee, HHS 
Secretary's Tribal Advisory Committee, and the National Indian 
Health Board, and I have consulted for other tribes, helping 
with their social programs as well, so I understand how these 
initiatives can impact our members.
    Public Law 102-477 has been an important step towards 
tribal self-governance. It has allowed for greater exercises of 
sovereignty in managing Federal programs, it has increased 
budget flexibility, reduced program inefficiencies, and allows 
us to prioritize programs that help our people build 
sustainable lives for themselves and their families.
    Tribal governments are tasked with fostering the right 
environment for our people to earn sustainable wages, provide 
for their household, and establish strong economic communities, 
and we must do this while staying true to embracing our 
cultural heritage. In that spirit, the Northern Arapaho Tribe 
leverages 477 programming to reduce joblessness, assist and 
support individual family efforts to become self-sufficient, 
encourage and support youth academic success, and to encourage 
healthy lifestyles and cultural appreciation. We offer TANF 
cash assistance, employment and training programs, work 
experience programs, and assistance with childcare, and to date 
we have had much success.
    The Tribe has leveraged resources to help individuals 
identify and remove barriers to work, gain work experience, 
obtain and retain full-time employment, and advance in their 
careers. Some participants have obtained a GED, others have 
received CDLs, heavy equipment operator training, medical 
assistance training, electrician apprenticeships, construction 
experience, and more. We have been able to assist students 
attending Central Wyoming College with their tuition, fees, 
book purchases, and supplies. We have paid for substitute 
teaching certifications as the demand for substitute teachers 
following the pandemic remains high.
    We have also leveraged resources in other ways including to 
install playgrounds, provide language and culture camping kits 
to use during tribal ceremonies, and provide backpacks filled 
with school supplies. These are just some of the ways that we 
have been able to benefit our people and encourage self-
sustainable and culturally-enriched lifestyles. We are proud of 
our successes.
    We must remain committed to improving 477. As this 
Subcommittee is aware, government institutions do not always 
operate with the utmost speed. Issues arise quickly and delays 
stemming from red tape can create unnecessary hardships. 
Meeting the challenges of our people requires flexible budgets 
and agile government processes, and as the boots on the ground 
and the governing body most familiar with the daily challenges 
facing the Northern Arapaho people, we are the best positioned 
to address these needs.
    We look forward to working with this Subcommittee and other 
government agencies to reduce any inefficiencies where possible 
and appreciate the cooperative efforts of all agencies 
involved. The sustainability of our culture and our economy is 
dependent on the people that make up our communities. If we 
want to ensure a long-time, self-sustainable future for 
tomorrow, then we must make strategic investments in those 
individuals and their families today. We remain committed to 
harvesting the full potential of 477 to deliver effective 
solutions to our people.
    Thank you and I look forward to answering your questions 
during this hearing.

    [The prepared statement of Mr. Spoonhunter follows:]
        Prepared Statement of Lee Spoonhunter, Northern Arapaho
                            Business Council

I. Introduction

    Chairman Hageman, Ranking Member Leger Fernandez, members of the 
Subcommittee, thank you for inviting me to speak on behalf of the 
Northern Arapaho Tribe.

    My name is Lee Spoonhunter. I am an enrolled member of the Northern 
Arapaho Tribe and have been Co-Chairman of the Tribe's Business Council 
since 2016 and served as Chairman from 2018 to 2020.

    For over 20 years, I have dedicated my career to public service. I 
had the pleasure of working for the Northern Arapaho Tribe's Temporary 
Assistance for Needy Families (TANF) program for almost a decade. I 
then went on to help build and improve the Northern Arapaho child 
support program. Prior to being elected to the Business Council, I 
served as the Northern Arapaho Sky People Higher Education Director.

    In addition to my work for the Tribe, I serve on the Department of 
Housing and Urban Development's Tribal Intergovernmental Advisory 
Committee and have also worked as a consultant to several other tribes 
to help with their respective TANF and Child Support programs. So, I 
have seen, first-hand and for several decades, the needs of the 
Northern Arapaho people and native people at-large.

    Though not without its faults, Public Law 102-477 (``477'') has 
been an important step towards tribal self-governance and sovereignty 
in managing federal programs that affect our members. 477 has allowed 
for increased budget flexibility, reduced program inefficiencies, and 
allows the Northern Arapaho Tribe to prioritize programs that help our 
people build sustainable lives for themselves and their families. This 
testimony will discuss both the feats of, as well as key areas for 
improvement for, 477.
II. Overview of Services

    I will start by giving a general overview about how the Tribe 
leverages 477 programs to empower Northern Arapaho tribal members and 
adjacent native people.
    As a government entity, our Business Council is tasked with 
fostering an environment conducive to our people earning sustainable 
wages, providing for their families, and establishing a strong 
community. And we must do this while staying true to, and embracing, 
our ever-important cultural heritage.
    To that end, the Northern Arapaho Tribe leverages 477 to create 
consolidated programming approved by the Business Council to achieve 
the following goals: (1) to reduce joblessness; (2) to assist and 
support individual and family efforts to become self-sufficient; (3) to 
encourage and support youth academic success; (4) to encourage healthy 
lifestyles and cultural appreciation; and (5) to strengthen the Tribe's 
ability to reach tribally determined goals consistent with our status 
as a sovereign entity.

    477 programs are grouped into 5 main categories, including: (1) 
TANF cash assistance programs, (2) employment and training programs, 
(3) work experience programs, (4) childcare programs, and we also 
provide programming for (5) general assistance. Most programs are 
available to individuals that live on the Wind River Reservation, as 
well as those residing in Fremont and Hot Springs Counties so long as 
the household contains one or more Northern Arapaho child or 
descendant.

     Cash assistance. Our Tribe provides temporary cash 
            assistance services to participant families, with or 
            without children. Participants must meet certain 
            requirements, including developing and complying with an 
            Individual Self-Sufficiency Plan (ISP) or Family Self-
            Sufficiency Plan (FSSP) as well as engaging in approved 
            work activities to strengthen the participant's employment 
            capabilities.

     Employment and Training. We provide employment and 
            training services to participants that are members of a 
            federally recognized tribe and live either on the Wind 
            River Reservation or in Fremont or Hot Springs Counties. 
            Additionally, programs like the Native Employment Works 
            (NEW) program are designed to aid individuals who are 
            under-employed or unemployed on a one-time basis. The NEW 
            program has primarily provided services to individuals and 
            students attending the Wind River Job Corps.

     Work Experience Programs. The work experience programming 
            has placed several workers in tribal departments, including 
            Enrollment, Senior Wood Program, Utilities, Senior 
            Citizen's Program, Housing, TERO, and childcare. Many of 
            these individuals were hired into permanent full-time 
            positions. Even for those who are not immediately hired, we 
            sometimes extend participants' hours until the employer has 
            capacity to hire them.

     Childcare Programs. Through childcare programming, our 
            Tribe provides subsidized childcare assistance to low-
            income families engaged in an approved work, education, or 
            job search activity. Childcare services are important to 
            nurture and strengthen families to become self-sufficient.

III. Success Stories

    Implementing programming pursuant to 477 has been largely 
successful and is helping the Tribe better assist individuals on the 
reservation and in adjacent counties with moving towards personal 
economic self-sufficiency.

    The Northern Arapaho Tribe has used 477 programming to help 
individuals identify and remove barriers to employment, gain work 
experience, obtain and retain full-time paid employment, advance in the 
workforce, and make steady forward movements to achieve unsubsidized 
employment. Through leveraging our programs, some participants have 
obtained a GED/HiSET. Others have received Commercial Driver Licenses, 
Heavy Equipment Operators licenses, medical assistance training, 
electrician apprenticeships, construction experience, and more.

    The Tribe has also assisted students attending Central Wyoming 
College with education costs, including tuition, fees, books and 
supplies. And we have also paid for substitute teaching certifications 
as the demand for substitute teachers following the pandemic has 
remained high.
    Other examples of ways we have been able to successfully leverage 
477 include:

     Installing playgrounds within our communities.

     Providing Language and Culture Camping kits for home 
            providers to use during our tribal ceremonies. Kits 
            included first aid materials, flashlights, books, sunblock, 
            mosquito spray, an umbrella, face masks, hand sanitizer, 
            and other helpful materials.

     Providing backpacks filled with school supplies.

     Providing Halloween safety handouts and goody bags to 
            children.

     Providing arts and craft kits during the winter holiday 
            months.

    These are just some of the ways, both big and small, that we have 
been able to leverage 477 programming to benefit individuals and 
encourage economically self-sustainable, healthy, lifestyles.
IV. Challenges

    While there have certainly been positive impacts resulting from 477 
programming, the Northern Arapaho Tribe and the federal government can, 
and must, continue to make improvements and increase efficiencies where 
they are most beneficial.
    As the Committee is well aware, government institutions are not 
always the most expeditious entities. Often, issues arise at a pace 
exceeding the speed of even our tribal government. Additional delays 
stemming from multi-government processes, and accounting for agency 
action, creates unnecessary hardships for our members. Meeting the 
challenges of our people requires flexible budgets and agile government 
processes. And as both the boots on the ground and the sovereign 
governing body most familiar with the daily challenges facing the 
Northern Arapaho people, we are best positioned to address these needs.
    Of course, the Tribe appreciates the cooperative efforts of all 
agencies. And we look forward to working with this Committee and other 
government agencies reduce bureaucratic inefficiencies where possible.
V. Conclusion

    The sustainability of our culture and economy is deeply dependent 
on the people that compose our communities. If we want to ensure long-
term self-sustainability for tomorrow, then it is necessary that we 
make strategic investments in those individuals and their families 
today. Thus, we remain committed to harnessing the full potential of 
477 to deliver increasingly effective solutions and meet the needs of 
our people as it relates to employment, education, training, and 
childcare. This is essential for the Tribe as a whole, as well as its 
individual parts.

    Thank you and I look forward to answering your questions during the 
hearing.

                                 ______
                                 

    Ms. Hageman. Thank you, Mr. Spoonhunter, for your 
testimony.
    The Chair now recognizes Ms. Margaret Zientek for 5 
minutes.

 STATEMENT OF MARGARET ZIENTEK, CO-CHAIR, P.L. 102-477 TRIBAL 
                 WORK GROUP, SHAWNEE, OKLAHOMA

    Ms. Zientek. [Speaking Native language.] Hello, I am 
Margaret Zientek. I am Co-Chair for Public Law 102-477. I have 
served with my Tribe for 27 years and since the year 2000 have 
been Co-Chair for the Tribal Work Group.
    One of the key statements made earlier, when allowed to 
function as Congress intended, the 477 Program has been a model 
of success that we hope will be emulated and expanded across 
Federal programs. There are some issues. There are some 
successes. I hope to briefly tell you both.
    Opportunities. The expansion of self-determination and 
administrative flexibility. President Biden's Executive Order 
14112 on reforming Federal funding and support for Tribal 
Nations to better embrace our trust responsibilities and 
promote the next era of tribal self-determination, we applaud 
that step.
    We also want to recognize the Department of the Interior 
and the Division of Workforce Development has over the last 
couple years stepped fully into its role as lead agency under 
the 477 statute, as amended, and the best examples if the 2023 
MOA, the modification of the MOA to correct it. They have 
supported tribes, and as you heard Bryan Newland, Assistant 
Secretary, state, they have very limited staff and are facing a 
lot of interest. They need help. I am hoping that through the 
Appropriations Committee we can help them.
    The Work Group is also pleased to note that more programs 
have been included, you have heard those already. There is a 
reduction in reporting burden, which is a positive, if those 44 
programs we operated were held outside of 477, that is 153 
separate reports down to one. One three-part report.
    It is a simplified grant process, renewal, we are still 
working on that. We do have some that have used that well. 
WIOA, Department of Labor, HHS Community Services Block Grant, 
and I hope most recently working with Title 4B, we will get 
there. We have challenges.
    Unlawful holding of funds by DOJ. You have heard that 
already spelled out, and threatening that they believe they 
have authority to not move those funds.
    Delayed funds transfer. There has been a significant 
problem with certain agencies and programs transferring funds 
to BIA. We understand one tribal organization right now is 
waiting for almost 2 years for the Department of Commerce 
Minority Business Development Agency to move those funds. Other 
tribes seem to have issues with Bureau of Indian Education 
funds. In your home state of New Mexico, Laguna Pueblo, was one 
who suffered from that in 2000 at the height of the pandemic. 
Two years of funds had been held. Sent to central but never 
sent to the tribe.
    There was a failure to reallocate PEAF, Pandemic Emergency 
Assistance Programs. First, DHHS TANF said you can't put that 
in 477, then tribes advocated why. They put it in 477. Then 
they wanted separate reporting. We advocated and explained you 
can't do that, that is contrary to 477. And then because they 
couldn't identify what funds might be available for 
reauthorization, again against 477 law, tribes were not allowed 
to participate in the reauthorization or the distribution of 
those funds.
    Unlawful meddling in tribal hires. Citing 2 CFR 200, 
Uniform Guidance regulations, some Federal agencies, including 
the Department of Education, have been requiring Federal 
approval for personnel decisions made by tribes and tribal 
organizations operating pursuant to Public Law 102-477 Plan. 
This is contrary to the letter and spirit of the 477 statute 
and nothing in Part 200 Regulation allows or requires.
    There is an inconsistent compliance supplement. The May 
2023 OMB Compliance Supplement has detailed requirements 
regarding the investment of 477 funds. However, 25 U.S.C. 
3413(g)(2) requires that only those funds are managed in 
accordance with the prudent investment standard. We are asking 
OMB to correct that immediately.
    Failure to provide a labor force report. That was in the 
law in 2017. We have yet to see one and we need that. It is 
potentially affecting funding for tribes.
    In conclusion, I thank you for that chance. I do want to 
restate something that Assistant Secretary Bryan Newland 
stated. He referred to it as limited in scope. Tribes determine 
what is related to determining eligibility, so tribes determine 
employment training and what is a related service. It is up to 
tribes to make that. And I thank you for your time.

    [The prepared statement of Ms. Zientek follows:]

Prepared Statement of Margaret Zientek, Co-Chair, 477 Tribal Work Group

    Chair Hageman and Members of the Committee, thank you for the 
opportunity to provide testimony during this important hearing on the 
477 Program. My name is Margaret Zientek, and I appear today as Co-
Chair of the 477 Tribal Work Group. The Work Group represents the 
approximately 300 federally recognized Tribes and Tribal Organizations 
that are served through the 78 current 477 Plans, as well as Tribes and 
Tribal organizations that are currently interested in joining the 477 
Program. I am also the Director for the Workforce and Social Services 
Department for the Citizen Potawatomi Nation, of which I am an enrolled 
citizen. The Citizen Potawatomi Nation has operated a 477 program for 
almost three decades, and I have served in my national capacity for 
almost two of those decades, including serving as a Tribal 
representative on the Pub. L. 102-477 Administrative Flexibility 
Workgroup leading up to the 2017 amendments, a Tribal representative 
during the negotiations that led to the 2023 Interdepartmental 
Memorandum of Agreement implementing the 477 statute as amended, and 
currently on the federal/Tribal work group developing an updated 477 
reporting form.

    The 477 Program is a critical federal initiative designed to reduce 
administrative burdens and support Tribal self-determination by 
allowing Tribes and Tribal Organizations to integrate multiple 
federally supported Tribal programs into a single program governed by a 
single 477 Plan approved by the Department of the Interior (DOI). In 
turn, the Tribe or Tribal Organization reports back on an annual basis 
using a single consolidated reporting form. I am pleased to report to 
the Committee that, when allowed to function as Congress intended, the 
477 Program has been a model of success that we hope will be emulated 
and expanded across federal programs. However, there are still a few 
issues in implementation that must be noted for the Committee.

Opportunities

    Expansion of Self Determination and Administrative Flexibility: The 
477 Tribal Workgroup has been heartened to see President Biden's 
Executive Order 14112 on ``Reforming Federal Funding and Support for 
Tribal Nations to Better Embrace Our Trust Responsibilities and Promote 
the Next Era of Tribal Self Determination'' and its emphasis on 
increasing flexibility in Tribal Nations' use of federal funding to 
better promote tribal self-determination. The 477 Program fits exactly 
into that role, and we have been pleased to see some federal agencies 
truly embrace that mission.

    For example, DOI, and its Division of Workforce Development (DWD), 
has over the last year or so stepped fully into its role as Lead Agency 
under the 477 statute, as amended, and the 2023 MOA. DWD has supported 
Tribes and Tribal Organizations through the Plan approval and amendment 
processes as more Tribes join the Program and more programs are 
integrated, interfaced appropriately with the other federal agencies, 
and stood up for implementation of the 477 law as written and intended 
by Congress. Unfortunately, there is more work for that Office to do 
than can be done with the current resources available. The Work Group 
urges the Committee to work with its colleagues on the Appropriations 
Committee to provide additional resources to be used toward these 
goals.

    In addition, the Work Group is pleased to see the integration of 
more and more programs integrated under 477 Plans, including recently 
the Department of Health and Human Services (HHS) Family Violence 
Prevention and Services Program (FVPSA), and the Department of Justice 
(DOJ) Victims of Crime Act Tribal Victims Services Set-Aside Program 
(TVSSA) and Office on Violence Against Women Grants to Tribal 
Governments Program (GTG). Integration of these programs into 477 Plans 
will allow Tribes and Tribal Organizations to provide comprehensive 
services that supports the goals of both the underlying programs and 
the 477 Program as a whole.

    Reduction in Reporting Burdens: Another positive development has 
been the overall reduction in reporting burden imposed on Tribes and 
Tribal organizations that are operating 477 Programs. If a Tribe were 
to operate each of the 44 federal programs currently integrated under a 
477 Plan independently, for example, that Tribe would be required to 
provide at least 153 different individual reports. Under the 477 
Program, that burden is reduced to a single three-component annual 
report and the resources that would have otherwise gone to developing 
each of those individual reports can instead be used to provide 
services to the community. The current 477 annual report form will 
expire in November, 2024 and a federal/Tribal work group is currently 
working on a simplified cumulative report. The Work Group appreciates 
all of the affected federal agencies' participation and forward 
thinking during that process.

    Simplified Grant Renewal Processes: On a similar note, the Work 
Group has been pleased to see some agencies embracing a simplified 
grant renewal process for programs that have been integrated under a 
477 Plan. Tribal grantees understand that to include a grant within 477 
Plan, the Tribe must apply for that grant. Certain agencies have 
acknowledged possible inclusion in a 477 Plan and provide specific 
instructions or even a simplified path for Tribes or Tribal 
Organizations to move forward as they apply to renew their grants. Some 
examples include the Department of Labor's Workforce Innovation and 
Opportunity Act (WIOA) Program, and HHS' Community Services Block Grant 
(CSBG) Program.
Challenges

    Unlawful Holding of Funds by DOJ: As noted earlier, following the 
477 statute, BIA recently approved a Tribe's 477 Plan amendment to 
integrate DOJ's TVSSA and GTG programs. This should have been 
straightforward, as those programs are clearly able to be integrated 
because the Tribe proposed to implement those programs ``for the 
purpose of job training, [job] skill development, assisting Indian 
youth and adults to succeed in the workforce, and encouraging self-
sufficiency,'' as well as ``services related to th[ose] activities'' 
under 25 U.S.C. Sec. 3404(a)(1). During the plan review process, DOJ 
disagreed with the integration of these programs, under the view that 
Tribes may only integrate programs that are specifically authorized for 
employment and training. Congress specifically rejected that view in 
developing the 2017 amendments to the 477 statute (in fact, that was 
one of the main purposes of the 2017 amendments), and the affected 
federal agencies did as well in the 2023 MOA. The Work Group 
understands that DOJ is now taking the position that it can refuse to 
transfer the funds even though the plan amendment has been approved. 
This is flatly contrary to the 477 statute's funds transfer 
requirements,\1\ and if allowed to stand, would undermine both the 477 
Program and this Committee's work in developing those funds transfer 
requirements.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \1\ 25 U.S.C. Sec. 3411(a)(2) and 25 U.S.C. Sec. 3413(a)(1)(B).

    Delayed Funds Transfers: There also remains a significant problem 
with certain agencies and programs transferring funds to BIA to be 
passed on to Tribes and Tribal Organizations operating 477 Programs. 
The Work Group understands that one Tribal Organization has been 
waiting for funds from the Department of Commerce's Minority Business 
Development Agency for more than a year. Similarly Tribes and Tribal 
Organizations have been waiting for Bureau of Indian Education funds 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
have been delayed by nearly two years.

    Failure to Reallocate PEAF Funds: Another major issue was the HHS 
and Administration for Children and Families (ACF) implementation of 
the Pandemic Emergency Assistance Fund (PEAF) with regard to 477 Tribes 
and Tribal Organizations. PEAF authorized $1 billion in spending to 
states, Tribes, and territories to assist families impacted by the 
COVID-19 Pandemic.\2\ The statute instructs governments managing PEAF 
funding to spend the emergency funds by the end of the fiscal year 
2022.\3\ ``All funds . . . that are unused'' were then to be reallotted 
to the ``States and Indian tribes eligible for funds under this 
subsection'' that used all of their PEAF funding.\4\ From the outset, 
ACF demonstrated a resistance to--and fundamental misunderstanding of--
the 477 program. ACF initially did not intend to allow Tribes to 
integrate PEAF funding into the Tribes' 477 funds.\5\ After tribal 
consultation, ACF transferred PEAF funds for Tribes that integrate 
Temporary Assistance for Needy Families funds under a 477 Plan to the 
BIA.\6\ However, ACF included instructions that tribes must track and 
report on PEAF funds separately within the Tribes' 477 plans. ACF later 
acknowledged that those instructions were contrary to the 477 law.\7\ 
Later, ACF issued an information memorandum that once again violated 
the text and purpose of 477 statute. Without any Tribal consultation, 
ACF decided not to reallot PEAF funding to 477 Tribes. According to 
ACF, because 477 Tribes report in a single reporting form, the agency 
could not determine whether the 477 Tribes had ``unspent'' PEAF funds 
to be collected and reallocated. Therefore, it left 477 Tribes out of 
distribution of unspent PEAF funds.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \2\ 42 U.S.C. Sec. 603(c)(1).
    \3\ 42 U.S.C. Sec. 603(c)(6)(D).
    \4\ 42 U.S.C. Sec. 603(c)(4)(b)(i).
    \5\ Off. of Family Assistance, TANF-ACF-PI-2021-04, The Pandemic 
Emergency Assistance Fund (2021).
    \6\ Id.
    \7\ Off. of Family Assistance, TANF-ACF-IM-2023-01, Temporary 
Assistance for Needy Families Information Memorandum (2023).
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    This was wrong on several levels. First, at the most fundamental 
level, once federal grant funds are transferred to a 477 Tribe and 
integrated into a Tribal 477 Program under a Plan, they become 477 
funds and are administered under the Plan ``notwithstanding any other 
provision of law.'' In other words, there was no such thing as 
``unspent'' PEAF funds to be recaptured. And under the plain words of 
the American Rescue Plan statute, 477 Tribes were clearly eligible to 
receive reallocated funds.
    Not only was leaving 477 Tribes out of PEAF reallocation unlawful 
under the American Rescue Plan, it was unlawful under the 477 statute. 
The statute says: ``In no case shall the amount of Federal funds 
available to an Indian tribe that has in place an approved plan under 
this chapter be reduced as a result of . . . the enactment of this 
chapter; or . . . the approval or implementation of a plan of an Indian 
tribe under this chapter.'' \8\ By excluding Tribes with 477 plans from 
the PEAF reallotment, ACF reduced the amount of federal funding 
available to 477 Tribes simply because they are 477 Tribes.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \8\ 25 U.S.C. Sec. 3411(a).

    Unlawful Meddling in Tribal Hires: Citing to the 2 CFR Part 200 
Uniform Guidance regulations, some federal agencies, including the 
Department of Education, have been requiring federal approval for 
personnel decisions made by Tribes and Tribal organizations operating 
pursuant to a 477 Plan. This is contrary to both the letter and spirit 
of the 477 statute, and nothing in the Part 200 regulations allows or 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
requires this action.

    Inconsistent Compliance Supplement. The May 2023 OMB Compliance 
Supplement has detailed requirements regarding the investment of 477 
funds. However, 25 U.S.C. Sec. 3413(g)(2) requires only that those 
funds are ``managed in accordance with the prudent investment 
standard.'' OMB should update the compliance report to be consistent 
with the statute.

    Failure to Provide a Labor Force Report: In the 2017 amendments to 
the 477 Statute, Congress required the Department of Labor to provide a 
Labor Force Report. DOL never developed such a report, and in 2022, 
transferred that responsibility to the Census Bureau. In September 
2022, the Census Bureau provided an update to the Tribal Workgroup, but 
has since provided no additional information--despite the Work Group's 
requests for update. No Labor Force Report has been issued.

Conclusion

    Thank you for the opportunity to provide testimony. I would be 
happy to answer any questions you may have.

                                 ______
                                 
    Ms. Hageman. Thank you, Ms. Zientek, for your testimony.
    The Chair will now recognize Members for 5 minutes of 
questioning beginning with myself.
    Several witness statements have mentioned that tribes have 
encountered issues with other departments and agencies outside 
of the Department of the Interior while implementing their 477 
Plans.
    Mr. Newland, how does the BIA work with a tribe to resolve 
these issues and has the BIA found that agencies are generally 
helpful in resolving these types of situations?
    Mr. Newland. Thank you, Madam Chair. We have been working 
very hard under the interagency agreement that I think every 
witness mentioned in their testimony. The law itself 
contemplates that agencies are going to disagree at times about 
the scope of 477, and I think you have heard some of that from 
some of the witnesses today. We have been working to make sure, 
along with our agency partners, that we are meeting the terms 
of the law as Congress has intended, and we know that Congress 
has amended Public Law 477 several times to make it clear to 
Federal agencies that Congress means what it says, that tribes 
can bundle these programs together and integrate them into a 
single plan.
    So, the new MOA is less than 2 years old at this point, and 
I think we have had success on the whole with implementing it. 
But as you heard from Ms. Zientek just now, there have been 
some challenges. We are trying to work through them, but again, 
in all of our conversations with our agency partners, we 
emphasize that it is the 50-year policy of the United States, 
as embodied by Congress, as reaffirmed by the President, as 
affirmed by the Secretary and all the other cabinet secretaries 
who have signed this MOA, that we should be guided by self-
determination in allowing tribes to set the agenda on how these 
funds are used.
    Ms. Hageman. I appreciate that, and I do want to note for 
the record that today we received a letter from the Department 
of Justice, DOJ, and it relates to the Wyandotte situation with 
the Department indicating that these programs or these grants 
will be expedited and moving forward quickly. We appreciate 
that information and we appreciate you continuing to work with 
the agencies and tribes themselves to make sure that we can 
address these and carry out the intent of Section 477.
    Your written statement mentioned that the Department is 
working with partners and tribes to update the annual reporting 
form for the 477 Program. What necessitated the update to this 
form and what other data is useful to capture in the annual 
reporting?
    Mr. Newland. I am sorry, Madam Chair, would you repeat the 
first part of your question?
    Ms. Hageman. Yes. What necessitated the updating of this 
form, why was it necessary to do so, and what other data would 
be useful to capture in the annual reporting?
    Mr. Newland. One of the reasons we need to update the form 
is to make sure that there is consistency and simplicity, which 
again is what Public Law 477 envisions and we want to make sure 
that tribes are not having to use all manner of different forms 
depending on what programs they are integrating into their 477 
Plan, so that is really the impetus behind this.
    In terms of additional information that might be useful, I 
would have to offer to get back to you on that one, Madam 
Chair, because I want to be inclusive to aid the Committee in 
any solutions you may be considering.
    Ms. Hageman. OK, I appreciate that.
    Mr. Spoonhunter, in your written statement you mentioned 
that bureaucratic inefficiency should be reduced where 
possible, and I wholeheartedly agree with that and, in fact, 
this morning had a Judiciary Subcommittee hearing dealing 
specifically with administrative and bureaucratic issues. Could 
you elaborate further on where Northern Arapaho has seen these 
inefficiencies in the 477 Program and what changes would 
improve these inefficiencies. What do you recommend that we do?
    Mr. Spoonhunter. Thank you for the question, Madam Chair. 
Under the 477 law, it was developed, a single program with 
simple reporting requirements, as stated. There are some 
reports, though, from different agencies that fit under the 477 
umbrella that still require separate reporting, duplicating 
reporting on behalf of staff. You have a tribe of 10,600 in 
Northern Arapaho, you have 27 staff members there who can work 
on these reports. But you have tribes that are anywhere from 
100 to 500 people and there are only two or three people within 
that program. So, having to duplicate these reports, you are 
taking staff time away from the staff that can work on the 
needs and services of the tribal people.
    And also, with the TANF program, for example, the other 
programs that the funding awards which are transferred over to 
the Department of the Interior to put under the 477 umbrella, 
those funds come in a single award at the beginning of the 
fiscal year. Unfortunately, you have the TANF program which 
does not do this. The TANF program under HHS ACF does not give 
the full funding award at the beginning of the fiscal year, so 
you compromise the services that are able to be met by the 
program to the clients and to the tribal members by the lack of 
funding that is received from TANF.
    Ms. Hageman. Just very quickly, do you believe that these 
are changes that could be done administratively or do you 
believe that the law itself needs to be changed?
    Mr. Spoonhunter. These are program administrative changes 
that can be done within the agencies. And if we can move them 
that way, that provides better services and more effectively 
and to and in country for the tribal people.
    Ms. Hageman. OK. Thank you.
    The Chair now recognizes the Ranking Member for her 5 
minutes of questioning.
    Ms. Leger Fernandez. Thank you very much for the summary of 
the things that are working right. It sounds like with the 2022 
renegotiated memorandum that the Biden administration did make 
huge gains. It sounds like, because you are the ones who worked 
really hard to get those 2017 amendments in, so it must have 
been incredibly frustrating when in 2018 there was an MOA that 
you were left out of the process. So, what I heard was 2022, 
you liked that, you liked the Biden administration Executive 
Order because that has moved forward.
    But one of my concerns is the fact that we have had these 
delays even with the new MOA, even with the new law of the 
funding, and I think it is really important to have the 
Subcommittee here so that the Assistant Secretary can go back, 
you don't understand, this is what it means when you don't move 
quickly, right, because you in many ways have to take those 
voices and educate, and in a very nice way I know, your fellow 
agencies.
    But if I could hear from the perspective of the Northern 
Arapaho and the Wyandotte, share with us what happens when 
there are these delays. If you could real quickly just say what 
does it mean to your tribe when there is this delay in getting 
this funding forward. Mr. Spoonhunter, we will start with you.
    Mr. Spoonhunter. With the 477 Program, as you know, it is 
designed to meet the needs of our tribal people, specific needs 
of Indian Country that states, they follow a universal pattern 
is where you can't do the cookie cutter approach with tribes. 
So, the specific needs that tribes have, the funding that they 
receive is very vital that these program funds come in at the 
beginning of the fiscal year. Again, I talk about the services 
that are provided to our children and to our families that are 
served under 477.
    Now, we compromise those services by these delays when 
these funds aren't delivered over to the Department of the 
Interior in a timely manner. So, working together, I believe 
that if we can have agencies come on board to be giving the 
funding award to the Department of the Interior in a timely 
manner, we better serve our community, we make success for 
future generations to come, and that is what it is all about.
    Ms. Leger Fernandez. Thank you. And, Chief Friend, could 
you share with us real quickly what it means when a tribe 
doesn't get these funds through that you had been expecting.
    Mr. Friend. Thank you. It is a larger issue, especially 
when it comes to the reporting aspect because it takes a lot of 
our time away from our staff that could be serving the clients 
in our program, when they are burdened down with a lot of 
different reports, whether it is quarterly reports, the 
different agencies that are part of that, it reduces the 
administrative burdens that we can spend more money on 
providing those direct services to the clients that are in 
need.
    So, instead of the staff consumed with reporting 
requirements, they actually are freed up to help those in the 
community that are actually in need, whether it be in 
workforce, whether it be childcare, whether it be educational 
services, the reduced administrative time means more time spent 
with our clients.
    Ms. Leger Fernandez. Thank you. And for the last question, 
I want to move in a forward-looking basis. So, Ms. Zientek, if 
you could quickly say, one of the issues is right now, I am 
saddened that not more agencies actually participate, right, 
that not all the agencies are eligible to participate. Thank 
you very much, your written testimony was great laying out the 
things.
    Where do you think we should push so that there is more 
participation, that you think would make a big difference? And 
if you can be quick because I also want to hear from Mr. 
Newland on that issue.
    Ms. Zientek. Each tribe determines what is best for them, 
so if we could get past this dance that we do with agencies and 
educate them and educate how to work together. We have offered 
to work with the Department of the Interior Staff Division of 
Workforce Development and train these agencies, educate them on 
this. I understand the issue with DOJ and the letter just 
received today, they finally got in their head, yes, we do have 
to move the money. So, that education piece could help.
    But it is going to depend on tribes. As you heard earlier, 
it is not cookie cutter. We each make our own decision of what 
works for us in our area and no two tribes' programs will be 
the same.
    Ms. Leger Fernandez. Right. And we have run out of time, so 
I would love to hear your thoughts and response in writing to 
the questions because I have run out of time.
    With that, I yield back.
    Ms. Hageman. Thank you. The Chair now recognizes the 
Representative from California, Mr. LaMalfa.
    Mr. LaMalfa. Thank you, Madam Chair. Let me, kind of a 
sidebar with Secretary Newland for a moment. Just wanted to 
point out or remind, up in my general area, the Coquille Tribe 
up north of my district, the Oregon side, we have where two 
dozen Representatives and Senators from California and Oregon, 
they represent over 60 tribes and they have written to express 
that the Coquille Tribe's proposal to build a new casino 170 
miles from their own existing lands, that the casino doesn't 
really fit within the spirit or actually comply with the law, 
harms other tribes, and should be rejected by the Department. 
So, I hope you have had a chance to take heed of this guidance 
and this request and that maybe the Department will be informed 
on this that they have decided to reject the project.
    So, if the Department is indeed going to stick with its own 
regulations, its own requirements, then its responsibility is 
to all the tribes across the board. I just wanted to put that 
out, and I know you have that ongoing, and I think that is 
still a strong opinion in the neighborhood, so thank you.
    I am going to turn to Chief Friend here. We have heard 
about examples of Federal agencies which are not properly 
implementing the 477 Program. In the one example, the agency 
has told the tribe to continue issuing quarterly reports even 
though that requirement supposedly had been rescinded. And then 
in another example, the agency is insisting that it must sign 
off and approve specific expenditures that the tribe would be 
making.
    So, of course, with the title of the hearing being about 
self-determination and tribal autonomy, how do examples like 
that fit with the rechanneling of the 477 Programs? Have you 
had a chance to bring up these disputes with the BIA and have 
they taken any actions to correct the over-reach in those 
areas?
    Mr. Friend. As far as the DOJ, which is one of the examples 
that we gave, we hope that this situation is going to be 
resolved. We have been working closely with DOI, and DOI has 
greatly supported us and the BIA in this matter. The 
flexibility to use those funds, applying the 477 Program 
eligibility across these programs for DOJ with regards to 
ensuring DOJ transfers the approved funds, DOI has set up a 
meeting, in fact, for later this week I believe with the 
Wyandotte and the DOJ. This, of course, is before we were made 
aware of the letter that was issued today by the Department of 
Justice.
    And just to say we did have the opportunity to glance at 
that letter that was submitted to the hearing. It appears to 
maintain the position that DOJ can refuse to transfer dollars 
in other situations. I think that was the last paragraph. So, 
while we feel like the letter did state that they would 
transfer the funds, I think there probably is a need for some 
clarification with what they mean by in other situations.
    But some of the examples that we gave, for example, LIHEAP 
requires a separate report, TANF have long required a quarterly 
report, despite significant pushback from tribes with the DOJ 
prior to integration of our new program in the 477, DOJ was 
requiring approvals for costs that are already covered by the 
grant, so we hope that it can be made clear to all Federal 
partners, agencies, and staff that their independent oversight 
automatically falls away once a program is integrated into 477.
    Mr. LaMalfa. OK. Chief Friend?
    Mr. Friend. We hope that they realize that those reporting 
requirements are dropped.
    Mr. LaMalfa. Thank you. Let me direct that also to 
Secretary Newland, that again with imposing these new 
requirements in the 477, which is against congressional intent 
and the Department's implementation for the program, shouldn't 
the Secretary be stepping in to uphold the integrity of the 
program and not have it continue this way?
    Mr. Newland. Thank you, Congressman. We are attempting to 
do just that. I think when we look back at the adoption of the 
Self-Determination Act 50 years ago, we saw a lot of resistance 
in different Federal agencies to tribal control over Federal 
programs in tribal communities. And I think we have a similar 
experience here in some pockets of the Federal Government with 
retrograde paternalistic views when it comes to tribes, but my 
view is Congress has made its intent clear with Public Law 477.
    The President and the cabinet have subscribed to that view 
of self-determination and we are going to work through it and 
make sure that we are fulfilling Congress' intent, empowering 
tribes and not leaving these decisions in the hands of small 
offices and different Federal agencies.
    Mr. LaMalfa. Thank you. I yield back, Madam Chair.
    Ms. Hageman. Thank you. The Chairman now recognizes 
Representative Carl.
    Mr. Carl. Thank you, Madam Chairman.
    Mr. Spoonhunter, it is always a pleasure to see you, sir. 
You always have that smile on your face and I appreciate it.
    I know I sound like a broken record, but it is worth 
emphasizing that only those who live it, truly understand it. 
The bureaucratic agencies in Washington, who do not see the 
real time impact, must take steps back and prioritize the 
voices of those directly affected. The Indian Employment 
Training and Related Services Act of 1972, or the 477 Program, 
is instrumental in empowering the tribal communities through 
self-determination by simplifying access to critical services 
and reducing administrative burdens.
    With that in mind, I would like to hear your perspective on 
two important aspects, and I will give them to you separately. 
Given the challenges and opportunities of highlighting during 
this hearing, what recommendations do you propose we impose on 
implementing the 477 Program and further enhancing its 
effectiveness in supporting the tribal community?
    Mr. Spoonhunter. Thank you for the question, Representative 
Carl. It is always good to see you also.
    As Ms. Zientek said earlier, we do a song and dance with 
all these agencies all the time. We are trying to educate and 
convince at some point to some agencies why these programs 
should be under 477. With the resiliency of tribes as we have 
worked together with our government the best way that we can, 
there are a lot of programs that need to go under 477, we could 
be here all day to talk about them.
    But again, as you have seen time and time again as a 
Committee that the 638 self-determination, self-governance and 
477 Programs work together. I think the agencies need to sit 
down with the Department of the Interior and need to be 
educated on why tribes are seeking funding and putting these 
programs under 477. They need to come to Indian Country and see 
why each tribe is very unique in their situation and why they 
want to do this program under 477.
    Mr. Carl. My second question, can you share some success 
stories or key achievements your tribe has experienced as a 
result of participating in the 477 Program and how it has 
contributed to advancing the tribal's self-determination?
    Mr. Spoonhunter. On the Wind River Reservation, we have 
about a 74 percent unemployment rate, which is very high at 
Wind River, and at one point one of our elders told our Tribal 
Council that the bridge out of poverty is education. So, 
through traditional education, cultural-based education, we 
have moved to enhance our work with traditional higher 
education and also vocational training, but also to think 
outside the box, and that is what this program is all about is 
thinking outside the box, is how do we educate and train our 
tribal members to go to work, to be culturally-based, self-
sufficient, and self-sustainable, healthy families.
    Mr. Carl. And you and I have talked about this before, but 
we are in need of about 6,000 to 8,000 welders, pipe fitters, 
and CDL drivers, and I heard you talk about CDL earlier, 
drivers in the Mobile, South Alabama area, and any one you want 
to send us, we will take them. So, thank you again. Thank you 
to the entire group for coming and speaking to us.
    Madam, I return my time.
    Ms. Hageman. I want to thank the witnesses for your 
valuable testimony today. I think that any time we have a new 
program that goes into place, it is important to have a look 
back and understand what is working and what is not and then 
working with either the agency or Congress itself to make the 
changes that are going to make it work better. It has been a 
priority of myself and I know Ms. Leger Fernandez as well to 
make sure that we do have the autonomy and the sovereignty, and 
when I hear things like about the unemployment rate within the 
Northern Arapaho Tribe, it makes me that much more intent on 
trying to address that and provide the services, the training 
necessary, and the education so that we can bring these folks 
out of poverty and make them a very functioning member of 
society.
    So, we really do appreciate your involvement today. We have 
had a lot of hearings over the last couple of days because we 
are just getting ready to go back into a recess on Friday, so I 
know some of our other Members are in other hearings right now 
or they would have been here. They know that this is an 
important issue. This has been a very bipartisan Subcommittee I 
believe throughout the last 14 months in attempting to address 
and resolve these issues and bring people in to better educate 
us on the issues that need to be addressed in Indian Country.
    So, I wish that we had a bit more participation today, but 
again I believe it is in part because of the other hearings 
that are going on and people getting ready to head back to 
their districts.
    The members of the Committee may have some additional 
questions for the witnesses and we will ask for you to respond 
to these in writing. I believe there is one question at least 
directed at you, Mr. Newland, and if you could provide us that 
information, I think it would be very helpful.
    Under Committee Rule 3, members of the Subcommittee must 
submit questions to the Subcommittee Clerk by 5 p.m. on Monday, 
March 25, 2024, and the hearing record will be open for 10 
business days for your responses.
    If there is no further business, without objection, the 
Subcommittee stands adjourned.

    [Whereupon, at 3:22 p.m., the Subcommittee was adjourned.]

            [ADDITIONAL MATERIALS SUBMITTED FOR THE RECORD]

Submissions for the Record by Rep. Westerman

                        Statement for the Record
                             Gloria O'Neill
                           President and CEO
                       Cook Inlet Tribal Council
                           Anchorage, Alaska

    Chair Hageman and Members of the Committee, thank you for the 
opportunity to provide testimony for this important hearing on the 477 
Program. I have had the privilege to serve as President and CEO of Cook 
Inlet Tribal Council (CITC) for 30 years, during the entirety of which 
CITC has successfully operated a 477 Plan integrating our employment 
and training and supportive services with our holistic, wraparound 
comprehensive services that connect individuals and families to life-
changing self-determination.

CITC BACKGROUND:

    CITC serves as the primary education and workforce development 
center for Alaska Native and American Indian (AN/AI) people in the 
Anchorage area. Approximately 70,000 AN/AI people--more than 40% of 
Alaska's total AN/AI population--live in the Cook Inlet region. In 
Anchorage alone, the Native population is almost 40,000. CITC serves 
any AN/AI person looking for services, regardless of their Tribal 
affiliation or original home areas.
    Currently, CITC provides services to its participants via five core 
departments: Alaska's People (AKP), Child and Family Services (CFS) 
(child welfare social services), Employment and Training Services 
Department (ETSD), Recovery and Reentry Services (RS), and Youth 
Empowerment Services (YES) (including K-12 education support, after 
school and summer programs and workforce development). Additionally, 
two CITC affiliates contribute significantly to CITC's mission: Clare 
Swan Early Learning Center, providing Early Head Start/child care, and 
the Alaska Native Justice Center, which provides legal representation 
and advocacy for victims and survivors of sexual assault, domestic 
violence, human trafficking, and other crime and offers Tribal justice 
assistance, represents Tribes in ICWA cases being heard in Southcentral 
Alaska state courts and training and technical assistance for Tribal 
ICWA Workers.
    As one of the nation's preeminent culturally responsive social 
service organizations, CITC offers programs that serve approximately 
12,000 AN/AI people yearly, many of whom have come to recognize CITC as 
a community locus for assistance, support, and connection. A vital 
component of those services is CITC's role as the sole Tribal TANF 
provider in Anchorage and the Mat-Su Valley, which has been a 
tremendous success in moving people from cash assistance to work 
largely because it is incorporated into the Employment and Training 
Services Department and CITC's 477 Plan.

Employment and Training Services Department (ETSD)

    Under CITC's 477 Plan, the Employment and Training Services 
Department (ETSD) assists Alaska Native and American Indian (AN/AI) 
participants in achieving self-sufficiency and finding meaningful, 
sustainable employment. As part of its comprehensive, wraparound Tribal 
TANF services incorporated in CITC's 477 Plan, CITC provides life 
skills development, access to education and treatment, childcare 
support, and case management between CITC and other service agencies.

    Because TANF is a component of CITC's 477 Plan, fully integrated 
training services lead participants to vocational development and 
apprenticeship programs in various industries for highly skilled and 
in-demand occupations, including healthcare. Specifically, CITC's 477 
Plan offers services that include:

     Adult Financial Assistance: temporary cash assistance and 
            case management to Alaska Native/American Indian 
            individuals and their families for paying bills, buying 
            food, and making rent/mortgage payments, among other 
            household expenses;
     Family Cash Assistance (TANF): temporary cash assistance 
            for Native families with children. Qualifying families 
            participate in career planning, training, and educational 
            services, including the support services they need in their 
            journey to self-sufficiency: childcare, transportation 
            assistance, interview practice, and required funds for work 
            clothes, tools, and other related supplies;

     Employment Assistance: support and resources designed to 
            provide job seekers with the help needed to overcome 
            challenges, improve their well-being, and achieve 
            professional goals, including transportation assistance, 
            interview and work clothing, tools, and other related 
            expenses associated with obtaining, maintaining, and 
            advancing their careers);

     Adult Education: fundamental math, reading, and writing 
            skills while preparing for GED testing. Paired with CITC's 
            GED Preparation program, individuals can improve and 
            refresh their academic skills with tutoring support while 
            earning a high school diploma, leading to better employment 
            and increased wages. ETSD also offers workshops on life 
            skills and workplace competencies. For many skills gained, 
            participants earn digital badges, a recognized validation 
            of training that can be included on resumes and job 
            applications;

     Supported Employment: participants gain work and volunteer 
            experience to increase their marketable job skills, build 
            resumes and cover letters, and obtain full-time, non-
            subsidized employment after an initial training period;

     Vocational Rehabilitation: the program assists AN/AI 
            individuals with disabilities to gain and maintain 
            meaningful employment;

     Vocational Training Grants: multiple grants to help 
            individuals pursuing training in various industries, 
            including transportation, construction, automotive 
            maintenance, welding, administration, healthcare, 
            information technology, childcare, and more;

     Childcare Assistance: financial support for families 
            needing childcare services for children under 13 while 
            parents participate in employment, training, or educational 
            activities. For parents visiting CITC's Nat'uh service 
            center, the Nahtsahda Childcare Center offers on-site, 
            drop-in care, which allows parents to concentrate on 
            employment, education, or treatment activities while on the 
            CITC campus;

     Youth Services: support with academics, life skills 
            classes, case management, finding employment, and 
            developing leadership skills for young Alaskans ages 14-24. 
            The team also supports youth ages 12 and under with social 
            and cultural activities and referrals for other needs;

     For work-ready people, CITC offers employment placement 
            and referrals, career and job counseling, recruitment 
            services for partner organizations, and access to a full-
            service career development center and staffed computer lab.

    Other supportive services such as the Community Services Block 
Grant and Low Income Heating and Energy Assistance assist CITC's 477 
participants in achieving their long term self-sufficiency goals. 
Additionally, the Tribal Training Grant helps fund short-term 
vocational training for needed job enhancement or to gain employment, 
and Native American Career & Technical Education Program (NACTEP) 
provides short-term vocational training for highly skilled and in-
demand occupations. CITC also offers opportunities in quickly growing 
fields such as the health profession in meaningful career ladder 
progress.
FY 23 Impacts:

     Assisted 633 participants with personal and professional 
            life skills classes.

     Enrolled 154 individuals in vocational and healthcare 
            training.

     Provided childcare assistance to 199 families to support 
            employment and education-related activities and served 306 
            children.

     Served 299 participants with utility assistance and six 
            households with weatherization support.

     Served 347 youth with case management, supported 
            employment, and supportive services with 95 subsidized 
            youth employment placements and 69 youth entered 
            unsubsidized employment.

     Met yearly successful participant closure rates for 
            employment services for individuals with disabilities.

     Provided supportive services to support participants in 
            employment to 786 individuals.

     Increased average hourly wage of participants by $12.86.

OVERALL 477 PROGRAM BENEFITS:

    The 477 Program is a critical federal initiative designed to reduce 
administrative burdens and support Tribal Self-Determination by 
allowing Tribes and Tribal Organizations to integrate multiple 
federally-supported Tribal programs into a single program governed by a 
single 477 Plan approved by the Department of the Interior (DOI). In 
turn, the Tribe or Tribal Organization reports back on an annual basis 
using a single consolidated reporting form. When allowed to function as 
Congress intended, the 477 Program has been a model of success that we 
hope will be emulated and expanded across federal programs. In 
particular, 11 of 12 regions in Alaska and several federally Recognized 
Tribes account for nearly half of the 477 Tribe and Tribal organization 
plans, and provide significant opportunity to leverage federal 
resources and programs in this very remote and hard to serve region. 
However, there are still a few issues in implementation that must be 
noted for the Committee.

OPPORTUNITIES

    Expansion of Self Determination and Administrative Flexibility: 
DOI, and its Division of Workforce Development (DWD), has over the last 
year or so stepped fully into its role as Lead Agency under the 477 
statute, as amended, and the more recently finalized 2023 MOA. DWD has 
supported Tribes and Tribal Organizations through the Plan approval and 
amendment processes as more Tribes join the Program and more programs 
are integrated, interfaced appropriately with the other federal 
agencies, and stood up for implementation of the 477 law as written and 
intended by Congress. Unfortunately, there is more work for that Office 
to do than can be done with the current resources available. CITC urges 
the Committee to work with its colleagues on the Appropriations 
Committee to provide additional resources to be used toward these 
goals.
    In addition, CITC is happy to inform the Committee that, after 
many, many years of effort, its Tribal Vocational Rehabilitation and 
other Education programs as well as Low Income Heat and Energy Program 
have finally been integrated into its 477 Plan. In addition, more and 
more programs have been integrated under other Tribes' and Tribal 
organizations' 477 Plans, including recently the Department of Health 
and Human Services (HHS) Family Violence Prevention and Services 
Program (FVPSA), and the Department of Justice (DOJ) Victims of Crime 
Act Tribal Victims Services Set-Aside Program (TVSSA) and Office on 
Violence Against Women Grants to Tribal Governments Program (GTG). 
Integration of these programs into 477 Plans will allow Tribes and 
Tribal Organizations to provide comprehensive services that support the 
goals of both the underlying programs and the 477 Initiative as a 
whole.
    As a final note, CITC calls the Committee's attention to ``The Way 
Forward: Report of the Alyce Spotted Bear and Walter Soboleff 
Commission on Native Children,'' for which CITC's CEO and President 
served as Chair. Recommendations throughout the report reference the 
importance and success of braiding and consolidating funding and 
programs to benefit Native children and youth and improve their 
outcomes. In particular, Recommendation 25 specifically addresses the 
benefits of 477 and the importance of expanding its reach, and calls 
for increased funding to accomplish these goals.

    Reduction in Reporting Burdens: Another positive development has 
been the overall reduction in reporting burden imposed on Tribes and 
Tribal organizations that are operating 477 Plans. If a Tribe were to 
operate each of the 44 federal programs currently integrated under a 
477 Plan independently, for example, that Tribe would be required to 
provide at least 153 different individual reports. Under 477, that 
burden is reduced to a single three-component annual report and the 
resources that would have otherwise gone to developing each of those 
individual reports can instead be used to provide services to the 
community. The current 477 annual report form will expire in November, 
2024 and a federal/Tribal work group is currently working on a 
simplified cumulative report. CITC supports the Federal/Tribal work 
group in that process, which worked very well the last time the 
reporting forms were modified.

    Simplified Grant Renewal Processes: On a similar note, some 
agencies have embraced a simplified grant renewal process for programs 
that have been integrated under a 477 Plan. Tribal grantees understand 
that to include a grant within 477 Plan, the Tribe must apply for that 
grant. Certain agencies have acknowledged possible inclusion in a 477 
Plan and provide specific instructions or even a simplified path for 
Tribes or Tribal Organizations to move forward as they apply to renew 
their grants. Some examples include the Department of Labor's Workforce 
Innovation and Opportunity Act (WIOA) Program, and HHS' Community 
Services Block Grant (CSBG) Program. CITC supports these efforts and 
hopes that other agencies will consistently apply this flexibility.

CHALLENGES

    Unlawful Holding of Funds by DOJ: As noted earlier, following the 
477 statute, BIA recently approved a Tribe's 477 Plan amendment to 
integrate DOJ's TVSSA and GTG programs. This should have been 
straightforward, as those programs are clearly able to be integrated 
because the Tribe proposed to implement those programs ``for the 
purpose of job training, [job] skill development, assisting Indian 
youth and adults to succeed in the workforce, and encouraging self-
sufficiency,'' as well as ``services related to th[ose] activities'' 
under 25 U.S.C. Sec. 3404(a)(1). During the plan review process, DOJ 
disagreed with the integration of these programs, under the view that 
Tribes may only integrate programs that are specifically authorized for 
employment and training. Congress explicitly rejected that view in 
developing the 2017 amendments to the 477 statute (in fact, that was 
one of the main purposes of the 2017 amendments), and the affected 
federal agencies did as well in the 2023 MOA. DOJ then took the 
position (happily reversed prior to the legislative hearing) that it 
can refuse to transfer the funds even though the plan amendment has 
been approved. This is flatly contrary to the 477 statute's funds 
transfer requirements,\1\ and if allowed to stand, would undermine both 
the 477 Program and this Committee's work in developing those funds 
transfer requirements.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \1\ 25 U.S.C. Sec. 3411(a)(2) and 25 U.S.C. Sec. 3413(a)(1)(B).

    Delayed Funds Transfers: There also remains a significant problem 
with certain agencies and programs transferring funds to BIA to be 
passed on to Tribes and Tribal Organizations operating 477 Programs. 
For example, one Tribal Organization has been waiting for funds from 
the Department of Commerce's Minority Business Development Agency for 
more than a year. Similarly, Tribes and Tribal Organizations waiting 
for Bureau of Indian Education funds have been delayed by nearly two 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
years.

    Frequency of TANF reporting: The Office of Family Assistance (OFA) 
has insisted on a quarterly reporting requirement for Tribes and Tribal 
organizations receiving TANF funds through their 477 Plans, though it 
is clear that 477, as amended, requires only one consolidated annual 
report for all programs; therefore, TANF data should be included when 
the tribal program does its annual reporting, whether on the federal 
fiscal year or in line with the period cycle. It appears that OFA may 
have decided to allow for annual reporting, and CITC looks forward to 
that change. If not, this has been a serious and recurring issue for 
Tribes and Tribal organizations that include TANF in their 477 Plans, 
and OFA should be instructed to require only one annual report as 
required by the legislation. In fact, no waiver is required because the 
language of the 477 amendment makes clear that only one report is 
required.
    CITC strongly urges the Committee to ensure that the TANF program 
continues to receive reports in the integrated statistical report 
developed by the federal agencies in conjunction with the 477 Tribal 
Workgroup. That report contains all of the necessary information and 
keeps TANF in alignment with the requirements of the 477 legislation as 
amended. As OFA is aware, that statute provides that ``Notwithstanding 
any other provision of law,'' only one report is required, and separate 
accounting of individual programs within a 477 Plan is not consistent 
with that Congressional direction.
    CITC has the evidence as described above to show that the fully 
integrated approach is the most successful way to move people from cash 
assistance to unsubsidized work, reflecting the eloquent comment made 
at the consultation, ``these are 477 clients, not TANF clients.'' OFA 
and Tribal TANF programs have the same goal: helping people to become 
self-sufficient, and the integration of services and braided funding 
that 477 allows makes that a reality.
    Misunderstanding of the Waiver Process and Opportunity: Requests 
for waiver under the 477 legislation as amended allow the federal 
departments to waive both regulatory and statutory provisions as long 
as they are not in opposition to the underlying program requirements. 
Therefore, merely stating that a law requires quarterly reporting, for 
example, does not follow the opportunity of the 477 waiver process (and 
in fact, as described above, waiver should not even be necessary for 
reporting beyond the annual report per the legislation)--the analysis 
must be more open to lessening of administrative burden contemplated by 
the law; agency interpretation of allowable waivers must be more 
flexible in order to fulfill the statutory requirement to grant waivers 
unless in opposition to the underlying program goals and purpose.

    Unlawful Meddling in Tribal Hires: Citing to the 2 CFR Part 200 
Uniform Guidance regulations, some federal agencies, such as the 
Department of Education, have been requiring federal approval for 
personnel decisions made by Tribes and Tribal organizations operating 
pursuant to a 477 Plan. This is contrary to both the letter and spirit 
of the 477 statute, and nothing in the Part 200 regulations allows or 
requires this action.

    Inconsistent Compliance Supplement. The May 2023 OMB Compliance 
Supplement has detailed requirements regarding the investment of 477 
funds. However, 25 U.S.C. Sec. 3413(g)(2) requires only that those 
funds are ``managed in accordance with the prudent investment 
standard.'' OMB should update the compliance report to be consistent 
with the statute and remove any additional requirements.

CONCLUSION

    If its full potential is realized, PL 102-477 provides an 
unparalleled opportunity to streamline funding and programs for the 
maximum benefit to American Indian and Alaska Native people. Thank you 
for your oversight and attention to making this possibility a reality, 
and for the opportunity to provide this testimony.

                                 ______
                                 

                       U.S. Department of Justice

                     Office of Legislative Affairs

Hon. Harriet Hageman, Chair
Subcommittee on Indian and Insular Affairs
Committee on Natural Resources
1324 Longworth House Office Building
Washington, DC 20515

    Dear Chair Hageman:

    In advance of the Subcommittee's oversight hearing titled 
``Advancing Tribal Self-Determination: Examining the Opportunities and 
Challenges of the 477 Program,'' scheduled to take place later today, 
we are sharing relevant information regarding the Department of 
Justice's (Department) recent activity under the 477 Program. We hope 
this information aids the Subcommittee in its oversight.
    The Department is fully committed to promoting and supporting 
Tribal sovereignty and self-determination, including through the full 
implementation of the Indian Employment, Training, and Related Services 
Demonstration Act as amended, also known as Public Law 102-477 (P.L. 
477). The Department has previously supported integration of its grants 
under P.L. 477, including those funding prisoner reentry programs.
    The Department's commitment to and support for Tribal sovereignty 
extends beyond P.L. 477. Our grantmaking components, which include the 
Office of Justice Programs (OJP), the Office of Community Oriented 
Policing Services, and the Office on Violence Against Women, engage 
with Tribes to ensure that all Department grants and other resources 
are as accessible and impose as few administrative burdens as possible. 
To aid in our efforts to achieve that goal, the Department has hired 
additional staff who bring deep expertise from different Tribal 
communities. The Department's grantmaking components are also engaged 
in efforts to increase outreach, support Tribes applying for funds 
through technical assistance, and make the application process less 
burdensome overall. Several new initiatives are underway to further 
ease administrative burdens on Tribal grantees. This includes the 
Office on Violence Against Women's piloting of reduced performance 
reporting for Tribal grantees and OJP's Office for Victims of Crime's 
substantive changes to how its Tribal Victim Services Set-Aside (TVSSA) 
program operates, answering Tribes' calls to administer the Tribal Set-
Aside as a formula program.
    We understand the Subcommittee may have questions regarding the 
Department's legal interpretation of the 2017 amendments to P.L. 477 as 
relevant to the Wyandotte Nation's 477 Plan. The Wyandotte Nation's 
plan proposed the integration of two discretionary grant programs that 
Congress authorized in the TVSSA in Section 510 of the Commerce, 
Justice, Science, and Related Agencies Appropriations Act, 2023, and 
the Violence Against Women Act (VAWA). These programs were created to 
support Tribes and other entities in providing specific services to 
victims of crime and to support law enforcement in responding to sexual 
assault and domestic violence. Congress has placed significant 
restrictions and requirements on this funding, including various 
prohibitions on grant recipients, such as barring the sharing of 
personally identifiable information about victims served with VAWA 
funds in order to protect their privacy and safety. Congress also 
requires the Department to provide extensive reporting on victims 
served by service providers and other aspects of our grant programs. 
The issue of whether grants awarded for the purpose of providing 
victims' services pursuant to the TVSSA and VAWA qualify for 
integration under P.L. 477's enumerated statutory purposes related to 
employment and job training presents complex questions of statutory 
interpretation.
    The Department is committed to supporting Tribal sovereignty and 
self-determination, including through the lawful implementation of P.L. 
477. After careful legal analysis and the decision by the Secretary of 
the Interior to integrate the Wyandotte Nation's 477 Plan, the 
Department has concluded it may, in this circumstance, lawfully 
transfer to Interior funds under two discretionary grant programs and 
is moving quickly to do so.
    We hope this information is helpful. Please do not hesitate to 
contact this office if we may provide additional assistance regarding 
this or any other matter.

            Sincerely,

                                            Carlos Uriarte,
                                         Assistant Attorney General

                                 ______
                                 

Submissions for the Record by Rep. Grijalva

                        Statement for the Record
                    United South and Eastern Tribes
                      Sovereignty Protection Fund

    The United South and Eastern Tribes Sovereignty Protection Fund 
(USET SPF) is pleased to submit testimony for the record of the House 
Committee on Natural Resources Subcommittee on Indian and Insular 
Affairs oversight hearing titled ``Advancing Tribal Self-Determination: 
Examining the opportunities and challenges of the 477 Program'' to urge 
full implementation of the PL 477 Program and expansion of its funding 
model into other areas. It is time to step into the next era of federal 
Indian law and policy--an era based in diplomacy, where the United 
States fully respects Tribal Nations' inherent rights and authorities 
and fulfills its trust and treaty obligations. One important aspect of 
this new era is reshaping how the United States delivers federal 
funding to Tribal Nations, and the PL 477 Program is a key tool in that 
endeavor.
    USET SPF is a non-profit, inter-tribal organization advocating on 
behalf of thirty-three (33) federally recognized Tribal Nations from 
the Northeastern Woodlands to the Everglades and across the Gulf of 
Mexico.\1\ USET SPF is dedicated to promoting, protecting, and 
advancing the inherent sovereign rights and authorities of Tribal 
Nations and assisting its membership in dealing effectively with public 
policy issues.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \1\ USET SPF member Tribal Nations include: Alabama-Coushatta Tribe 
of Texas (TX), Catawba Indian Nation (SC), Cayuga Nation (NY), 
Chickahominy Indian Tribe (VA), Chickahominy Indian Tribe-Eastern 
Division (VA), Chitimacha Tribe of Louisiana (LA), Coushatta Tribe of 
Louisiana (LA), Eastern Band of Cherokee Indians (NC), Houlton Band of 
Maliseet Indians (ME), Jena Band of Choctaw Indians (LA), Mashantucket 
Pequot Indian Tribe (CT), Mashpee Wampanoag Tribe (MA), Miccosukee 
Tribe of Indians of Florida (FL), Mi'kmaq Nation (ME), Mississippi Band 
of Choctaw Indians (MS), Mohegan Tribe of Indians of Connecticut (CT), 
Monacan Indian Nation (VA), Nansemond Indian Nation (VA), Narragansett 
Indian Tribe (RI), Oneida Indian Nation (NY), Pamunkey Indian Tribe 
(VA), Passamaquoddy Tribe at Indian Township (ME), Passamaquoddy Tribe 
at Pleasant Point (ME), Penobscot Indian Nation (ME), Poarch Band of 
Creek Indians (AL), Rappahannock Tribe (VA), Saint Regis Mohawk Tribe 
(NY), Seminole Tribe of Florida (FL), Seneca Nation of Indians (NY), 
Shinnecock Indian Nation (NY), Tunica-Biloxi Tribe of Louisiana (LA), 
Upper Mattaponi Indian Tribe (VA), and Wampanoag Tribe of Gay Head 
(Aquinnah) (MA).
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
A. Marshall Plan for Tribal Nations and Executive Order 14112

    In recognition of chronic and ongoing failures to fund trust and 
treaty obligations, USET SPF has consistently advocated for a Marshall 
Plan for Tribal Nations, based on the principle that the United States 
should make a financial investment in Tribal Nations similar to that of 
the Marshall Plan through which the United States invested in 
rebuilding Europe after World War II. The Marshall Plan for Tribal 
Nations not only calls for a significant investment to bring Tribal 
Nations up to an appropriate baseline, but it also calls for 
sufficient, effective, and respectful funding mechanisms moving 
forward. It advocates for funding delivery and use parameters that are 
respectful of Tribal Nations' inherent sovereignty. The Marshall Plan 
for Tribal Nations is gaining momentum, with Tribal organizations 
signing on and media coverage supporting the effort.
    USET SPF celebrates that the White House has already taken steps to 
deliver on the foundational principles underpinning the Marshall Plan 
for Tribal Nations. Executive Order No. 14112, issued in December and 
titled ``Reforming Federal Funding and Support for Tribal Nations To 
Better Embrace Our Trust Responsibilities and Promote the Next Era of 
Tribal Self-Determination,'' seeks to assign a dollar amount to the 
United States' unmet obligations to Tribal Nations, and also mandates 
federal agencies utilize flexibility to facilitate Tribal Nations' 
exercise of our inherent sovereignty in our use of federal funds. The 
Executive Order explains: ``We must ensure that Federal programs, to 
the maximum extent possible and practicable under Federal law, provide 
Tribal Nations with the flexibility to improve economic growth, address 
the specific needs of their communities, and realize their vision for 
their future.''
B. Support for PL 477 Program

    The PL 477 Program is one tool through which appropriately flexible 
federal funding can be delivered to Tribal Nations, and fully 
implementing and expanding the funding mechanisms of the PL 477 Program 
is integral to both the Marshall Plan for Tribal Nations and Executive 
Order 14112.\2\ The PL 477 Program serves as a next step in the 
evolution of federal funding for Tribal Nations, and it is a model we 
hope to see replicated in other areas. It is revolutionary in that it 
authorizes Tribal Nations to consolidate diverse federal funding 
sources from across 12 federal agencies into one, streamlined Tribal 
program designed by the Tribal Nation to help its struggling community 
members achieve self-sufficiency and stability. The bedrock principle 
of the 477 Program is to enable Tribal Nations to exercise our inherent 
sovereignty in our use of federal funds, in addition to promoting the 
improved integration and streamlining of Tribal Nation programs and 
reporting.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \2\ The 477 Program was authorized under the Indian Employment, 
Training, and Related Services Demonstration Act of 1992, Public Law 
102-477, which was amended in 2000, Public Law 106-568, and again in 
2017, Public Law 115-93. The 477 Program is codified at 25 U.S.C. 
Sec. Sec. 3401-3417.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    The 477 Program removes strings tied to federal funding such that 
Tribal Nations may pool and reallocate federal funding integrated into 
our 477 plans across the services provided through our 477 plan. 25 
U.S.C. Sec. Sec. 3413(a)(1)(A), (a)(2), 3410(b)(3). Integrated funds 
that are not obligated or expended remain available without fiscal year 
limitation. 25 U.S.C. Sec. 3413(b)(1). The PL 477 statute creates 
authority to waive integrated programs' statutory, regulatory, and 
administrative requirements that get in the way of streamlined 
operation. 25 U.S.C. Sec. 3406(d). And the PL 477 statute removes all 
reporting requirements tied to integrated programs, instead requiring 
just one comprehensive annual report on implementation of the 477 plan. 
25 U.S.C. Sec. 3410(a)(2)(A), (b). These are only a few of the 477 
Program's functions, all of which are designed to put more decision-
making power in the hands of Tribal Nations and remove federal 
impediments so that we can better respond to the needs of our 
communities.
    The 477 statute sets forth three criteria that define the universe 
of programs eligible for integration under the PL 477 Program. First, 
the program must be operated by one of the 12 covered federal agencies. 
See 25 U.S.C. Sec. 3404(b). Second, the program must be implemented for 
one of the covered purposes, which are designed to be broad so that 
they encompass not just employment and training programs but also 
related supportive services. 25 U.S.C. Sec. 3404(a)(1)(A). Third, in 
order for a program to be eligible for integration into a 477 plan, it 
must receive a covered type of funding. 25 U.S.C. Sec. 3404(a)(1)(B), 
(a)(2). When a program meets these three eligibility criteria, as 
determined by the Department of the Interior (DOI), 25 U.S.C. 
Sec. 3407(a), it is eligible for integration into a 477 plan.
    USET SPF is invested in seeing the PL 477 Program succeed, be 
implemented to the maximum extent permissible under the law, and be 
replicated for other types of federal programs. It is one step toward a 
future in which Tribal Nations are freed from the obstacles preventing 
us from utilizing federal funding as sovereign nations.
C. Call for All Federal Partner Agencies to Fully Implement PL 477

    Despite the importance of the PL 477 Program and what it means for 
delivery of federal funding to Tribal Nations, some federal partners 
have historically--and currently--prevented full implementation of the 
PL 477 Program. They have opposed integration of programs they operate 
and attempted to maintain control over funds after their integration.
    We believe these issues tie back to concerns of officials or staff 
within federal partner agencies about losing control over programs they 
operate. Many of these individuals are not accustomed to working 
alongside Tribal Nations. Full implementation of the PL 477 Program 
requires all parties to understand and respect Tribal sovereignty and 
to believe that Tribal Nations are equipped to do what is best for our 
people.
    We ask Congress to ensure the federal partner agencies have an 
appreciation of the principles behind the PL 477 Program--including the 
trust and treaty obligations it is designed to fulfill and Tribal 
Nations' sovereignty and self-determination it is intended to respect. 
We call on Congress, the White House, and leadership within each 
federal agency to make clear that all government officials and staff 
must comply with the PL 477 statute. Additionally, it is essential DOI 
has the tools and backup necessary to ensure all federal partners and 
program officials and staff fully implement the 477 Program. Indeed, 
the White House through Executive Order 14112 has already recognized 
its obligation to assist federal agencies to identify and utilize 
opportunities to increase funding flexibility for Tribal Nations, and 
to intervene when federal agencies refuse to do so.
    All federal partners must be made to understand that it is DOI that 
has exclusive decision-making authority over whether a program meets 
the PL 477 eligibility criteria for integration into a PL 477 plan. 25 
U.S.C. Sec. 3407(a). They must acknowledge there is no separate legal 
authority authorizing any federal partner to avoid transferring funds 
associated with a program DOI has approved, and instead the PL 477 
statute mandates funds be transferred promptly. 25 U.S.C. Sec. 3412(a); 
see also 25 U.S.C. Sec. 3410(a)(2)(D)(ii).
    All federal partners must also understand the covered purposes are 
broad and designed to include supportive services, not just programs 
authorized specifically for employment and training. 25 U.S.C. 
Sec. 3404(a)(1)(A). A restrictive interpretation undercuts Congress's 
intention to facilitate Tribal Nations to create wraparound self-
sufficiency programs for our people.
    All federal partners must understand that, once a program is 
integrated into a PL 477 plan, every reporting requirement tied to that 
program automatically falls away and is replaced by the annual PL 477 
report. 25 U.S.C. Sec. 3410(a)(2)(A), (b). They must also understand 
that all funds integrated into a PL 477 plan may be pooled and 
reallocated across services within the 477 plan. 25 U.S.C. 
Sec. Sec. 3413(a)(1)(A), (a)(2), 3410(b)(3).
    All of these things and more happen as an automatic function of 
integration into a PL 477 plan. On top of these automatic functions, 
all federal partners must understand that the PL 477 statute itself 
creates authority to waive requirements associated with the integrated 
programs, including when those requirements are found in the program's 
authorizing statute. 25 U.S.C. Sec. 3406(d).
    Federal agencies that refuse to implement these congressional 
mandates must face real consequences. Only after they are made to 
comply with the mandates of the PL 477 statute will they understand 
that Tribal Nations will exceed their expectations in reshaping the 
services carried out through the programs they operate.
D. Department of Justice Position

    We recently learned the Department of Justice (DOJ) has taken the 
position it has separate legal authority to refuse to transfer program 
funds into a Tribal Nation's PL 477 plan when it disagrees with DOI's 
assessment of program eligibility.
    The Wyandotte Nation on February 26, 2024, received a positive 
determination from DOI approving integration of two programs operated 
by DOJ into Wyandotte's PL 477 plan. While DOJ eventually agreed that 
the programs were eligible for integration and said it would transfer 
the funds, it preserved its position regarding its alleged separate 
legal authority. In a letter submitted on the record for this oversight 
hearing, DOJ said: ``After careful legal analysis and the decision by 
the Secretary of the Interior to integrate the Wyandotte Nation's 477 
Plan, the Department has concluded it may, in this circumstance, 
lawfully transfer to Interior funds under two discretionary grant 
programs and is moving quickly to do so.'' Thus, DOJ doubled down on 
its position that in other circumstances and based on its own legal 
analysis there may be situations where it is unlawful to transfer 
integrated funds.
    We are concerned that DOJ's position could be adopted by the other 
federal partner agencies and used as a mechanism to refuse to integrate 
the full scope of eligible programs into Tribal Nations' PL 477 plans. 
Such a position could derail the success of the PL 477 Program, which 
we view as integral to the evolution of federal funding delivery to 
Tribal Nations. We join Assistant Secretary for Indian Affairs, Bryan 
Newland, in emphasizing that this position is deeply regressive and 
fails to reflect the spirit and intent of EO 14112 or the PL 477 
Program in any way. We urge you to impress upon DOJ that it has 
obligations to support Tribal Nation sovereignty, including under the 
PL 477 statute as a federal partner agency, and that to shirk those 
obligations contradicts the law.
Conclusion

    We appreciate your attention to full implementation of the PL 477 
Program. Please reach out to Liz Malerba, USET SPF Director of Policy 
and Legislative Affairs, at [email protected] and Katie Klass, USET/
USET SPF General Counsel, should you have any questions.

                                 [all]