[House Hearing, 118 Congress]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]


                        CRYPTO CRIME IN CONTEXT:
                       BREAKING DOWN THE ILLICIT
                       ACTIVITY IN DIGITAL ASSETS
=======================================================================

                                HEARING

                               BEFORE THE

                    SUBCOMMITTEE ON DIGITAL ASSETS,
                         FINANCIAL TECHNOLOGY,
                             AND INCLUSION

                                 OF THE

                    COMMITTEE ON FINANCIAL SERVICES

                     U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

                    ONE HUNDRED EIGHTEENTH CONGRESS

                             FIRST SESSION

                               __________

                           NOVEMBER 15, 2023

                               __________

                           Serial No. 118-58

       Printed for the use of the Committee on Financial Services
       
[GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]       


                            www.govinfo.gov
                            
                                __________

                   U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE                    
55-097 PDF                  WASHINGTON : 2026               
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                 HOUSE COMMITTEE ON FINANCIAL SERVICES

               PATRICK McHENRY, North Carolina, Chairman

FRENCH HILL, Arkansas, Vice          MAXINE WATERS, California, Ranking 
    Chairman                             Member
FRANK D. LUCAS, Oklahoma             SYLVIA R. GARCIA, Texas, Vice 
PETE SESSIONS, Texas                     Ranking Member
BILL POSEY, Florida                  NYDIA M. VELAZQUEZ, New York
BLAINE LUETKEMEYER, Missouri         BRAD SHERMAN, California
BILL HUIZENGA, Michigan              GREGORY W. MEEKS, New York
ANN WAGNER, Missouri                 DAVID SCOTT, Georgia
ANDY BARR, Kentucky                  STEPHEN F. LYNCH, Massachusetts
ROGER WILLIAMS, Texas                AL GREEN, Texas
TOM EMMER, Minnesota                 EMANUEL CLEAVER, Missouri
BARRY LOUDERMILK, Georgia            JAMES A. HIMES, Connecticut
ALEXANDER X. MOONEY, West Virginia   BILL FOSTER, Illinois
WARREN DAVIDSON, Ohio                JOYCE BEATTY, Ohio
JOHN W. ROSE, Tennessee              JUAN VARGAS, California
BRYAN STEIL, Wisconsin               JOSH GOTTHEIMER, New Jersey
WILLIAM R. TIMMONS, IV, South        VICENTE GONZALEZ, Texas
    Carolina                         SEAN CASTEN, Illinois
RALPH NORMAN, South Carolina         AYANNA PRESSLEY, Massachusetts
DANIEL MEUSER, Pennsylvania          STEVEN HORSFORD, Nevada
SCOTT FITZGERALD, Wisconsin          RASHIDA TLAIB, Michigan
ANDREW R. GARBARINO, New York        RITCHIE TORRES, New York
YOUNG KIM, California                NIKEMA WILLIAMS, Georgia
BYRON DONALDS, Florida               WILEY NICKEL, North Carolina
MIKE FLOOD, Nebraska                 BRITTANY PETTERSEN, Colorado
MICHAEL LAWLER, New York
ZACHARY NUNN, Iowa
MONICA DE LA CRUZ, Texas
ERIN HOUCHIN, Indiana
ANDREW OGLES, Tennessee

                    Matthew Hoffmann, Staff Director

                                 ------                                

   SUBCOMMITTEE ON DIGITAL ASSETS, FINANCIAL TECHNOLOGY AND INCLUSION

                    FRENCH HILL, Arkansas, Chairman

WARREN DAVIDSON, Ohio, Vice          STEPHEN F. LYNCH, Massachusetts, 
    Chairman                             Ranking Member
FRANK D. LUCAS, Oklahoma             JOSH GOTTHEIMER, New Jersey, Vice 
TOM EMMER, Minnesota                     Ranking Member
JOHN W. ROSE, Tennessee              BILL FOSTER, Illinois
BRYAN STEIL, Wisconsin               RITCHIE TORRES, New York
WILLIAM R. TIMMONS, IV, South        BRAD SHERMAN, California
    Carolina                         AL GREEN, Texas
BYRON DONALDS, Florida               SEAN CASTEN, Illinois
MIKE FLOOD, Nebraska                 WILEY NICKEL, North Carolina
ERIN HOUCHIN, Indiana
                         C  O  N  T  E  N  T  S

                              ----------                              

                       Wednesday, November, 2023
                           OPENING STATEMENTS

                                                                   Page
Hon. French Hill, Chairman of the Subcommittee on Digital Assets, 
  Financial Technology and Inclusion, a U.S. Representative from 
  Arkansas.......................................................     1
Hon. Stephen F. Lynch, Ranking Member of the Subcommittee on 
  Digital Assets, Financial Technology and Inclusion, a U.S. 
  Representative from Massachusetts..............................     2

                               STATEMENTS

Hon. Patrick T. McHenry, Chairman of the Financial Services 
  Committee, a U.S. Representative from North Carolina...........     4

                               WITNESSES

Mr. William C. Hughes, Senior Counsel & Director, Global 
  Regulatory Matters, Consensys Software Inc. and former 
  Associate Deputy Attorney General, U.S. Department of Justice..     5
    Prepared Statement...........................................     7
Mr. Jonathan Levin, Co-Founder & Chief Strategy Officer, 
  Chainalysis....................................................    10
    Prepared Statement...........................................    12
Ms. Gregory C. Lisa, Chief Legal Officer, DELV (f/k/a Element 
  Finance); Senior Counsel, Hogan Lovells; and former Interim 
  Director, Office of Compliance and Enforcement, Financial 
  Crimes Enforcement Network (FinCEN)............................    18
    Prepared Statement...........................................    20
Ms. Jane Khodarkovsky, Partner, Arktouros; and former Human 
  Trafficking Finance Specialist, U.S. Department of Justice's 
  Money Laundering and Asset Recovery Section....................    31
    Prepared Statement...........................................    33
Ms. Alison Jimenez, Economist, and President, Dynamic Securities 
  Analytics, Inc.................................................    62
    Prepared Statement...........................................    64

                                APPENDIX

              ADDITIONAL MATERIAL SUBMITTED FOR THE RECORD

Hon. French Hill:
    Letter to President Biden and Treasury Secretary Yellen from 
      various Members of Congress, dated November 15, 2023.......    94
    Chainalysis report, ``Correcting the Record: Inaccurate 
      Methodologies for Estimating Cryptocurrency's Role in 
      Terrorism Financing,'' dated October 18, 2023..............   100
    Written statement of the Chamber of Digital Commerce.........   108
    Letter to Attorney General Merrick Garland from Chairman Hill 
      and Senator Cynthia M. Lummis, dated October 26, 2023......   110
    Letter from a group of United States military servicemembers, 
      intelligence officers, and national security professionals, 
      dated November 15, 2023....................................   113
    Memorandum from the National Credit Union Administration 
      (NCUA) in response to a question posed by Chairman Hill 
      during the hearing, dated December 14, 2023................   122
    TRM Insights, ``In Wake of Attack on Israel, Understanding 
      How Hamas Uses Crypto,'' dated October 10, 2023............   127
     ``Report to Congress on Renewal of Iraq's Sanctions Waiver 
      for Electricity Payments''.................................   134

                 RESPONSES TO QUESTIONS FOR THE RECORD

Hon. Maxine Waters:
    Written responses to questions for the record submitted to 
      William C. Hughes..........................................   138
    Written responses to questions for the record submitted to 
      Alison Jimenez.............................................   140
    Written responses to questions for the record submitted to 
      Jane Khodarkovsky..........................................   141
    Written responses to questions for the record submitted to 
      Jonathan Levin.............................................   143
    Written responses to questions for the record submitted to 
      Gregory C. Lisa............................................   145

 
                        CRYPTO CRIME IN CONTEXT:
                       BREAKING DOWN THE ILLICIT
                       ACTIVITY IN DIGITAL ASSETS

                              ----------                              


                      Wednesday, November 15, 2023

             U.S. House of Representatives,
                    Subcommittee on Digital Assets,
                              Financial Technology,
                                     and Inclusion,
                            Committee on Financial Services
                                                   Washington, D.C.
    The subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 2 p.m., in 
room 2128, Rayburn House Office Building, Hon. French Hill 
[chairman of the subcommittee] presiding.
    Members present: Representatives Hill, Davidson, Rose, 
Steil, Timmons, Flood, Lynch, Foster, Sherman, Green, Casten, 
and Nickel.
    Ex officio present: Representative McHenry.
    Chairman Hill. The Subcommittee on Digital Assets, 
Financial Technology, and Inclusion will come to order. Without 
objection, the Chair is authorized to declare a recess of the 
subcommittee at any time.
    Today's hearing is entitled, ``Crypto Crime in Context: 
Breaking Down the Illicit Activity in Digital Assets.''
    I now recognize myself for 4 minutes to give an opening 
statement.

   HON. FRENCH HILL, CHAIRMAN OF THE SUBCOMMITTEE ON DIGITAL 
      ASSETS, FINANCIAL TECHNOLOGY AND INCLUSION, A U.S. 
                  REPRESENTATIVE FROM ARKANSAS

    Today, we are building on our previous hearings and our 
classified briefings to better understand the full picture of 
the illicit use of digital assets. The goal is to dive deeper, 
debunk some of the myths, and ensure that we, as policymakers, 
have all the facts.
    I would be remiss if I began this hearing without 
acknowledging the reports that digital assets have been used to 
help Hamas fundraise for the attacks carried out against 
Israel. In the aftermath of these attacks, there was an article 
in The Wall Street Journal which reported that Hamas received a 
significant portion of its funding from digital assets.
    A subsequent letter sent by Members of Congress stated that 
Hamas and the Palestinian Islamic Jihad raised over $130 
million in crypto, to which the blockchain analytics firm cited 
by The Wall Street Journal issued a correction that, ``There is 
no evidence to suggest that crypto fundraising has raised 
anything close to this amount, and the data provided by 
Elliptic and others has been misinterpreted.''
    So, despite the reports of the relatively small role that 
digital assets are reported to have played in Hamas's 
fundraising efforts, I want to be unequivocally clear today 
that this committee is in favor of all available means to shut 
down illegal, illicit terror finance, period, full stop, 
whether it takes place through crypto, cash, or through hawala.
    That is why Senator Lummis and I sent a letter to the DOJ 
about the need to go after specific bad actors within the 
crypto industry. More than 50 Members also joined an effort led 
by Whip Tom Emmer, Chair Patrick McHenry, Congressman Torres, 
and myself to better understand the size, scope, and duration 
of Hamas's fundraising through digital assets.
    At the end of the day, bad actors will continue to use any 
means possible to conduct their illicit activity, but phones 
and the internet are not to be blamed for terrorist financing 
and crypto should not either. We must examine these issues 
head-on and separate fact from fiction, and that is why we are 
here today.
    Based on the Member engagement on this issue on both sides 
of the aisle, our fact-finding mission is not partisan in any 
way. Members in this room must better understand the degree of 
illicit activity, understand how we can use blockchain 
technology to combat illicit activity, examine the analytical 
tools that are currently available to combat this activity, and 
explore gaps that may prevent and detect illicit activity.
    As the Department of the Treasury itself has acknowledged, 
``most virtual currency activity is licit, not illicit.'' So, 
blockchains do provide law enforcement with unique and novel 
insights into criminal organizations and their funding 
networks. Law enforcement has been very adept at leveraging 
this information to clamp down on criminals, in part by choking 
off their access to the on- and off-ramps.
    The witnesses today are best suited to ensure that we leave 
no stone unturned and fully discuss the issues at hand.
    I thank the witnesses for being here today, and I look 
forward to our discussions, and to working with Ranking Member 
Lynch and the members of this subcommittee.
    Now, let me turn to the ranking member of the subcommittee, 
Mr. Lynch, for a 5-minute opening statement.

 HON. STEPHEN F. LYNCH, RANKING MEMBER OF THE SUBCOMMITTEE ON 
  DIGITAL ASSETS, FINANCIAL TECHNOLOGY AND INCLUSION, A U.S. 
               REPRESENTATIVE FROM MASSACHUSETTS

    Mr. Lynch. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and I want to thank our 
witnesses for your willingness to help out the committee with 
its work. This is an important hearing to examine the efforts 
to combat illicit activity in the digital asset sector.
    In the wake of the devastating terrorist attacks 
perpetrated by Hamas against Israel on October 7th, the 
Treasury Department has continued to evaluate the role of 
digital assets, including cryptocurrencies, in financing 
terrorist and other criminal activities. As stated by Deputy 
Treasury Secretary Wally Adeyemo this month, ``The Biden 
Administration is already working with Congress and crypto 
stakeholders to identify additional actions that might further 
prevent illicit activity in the digital asset space.''
    This committee has received multiple classified briefings 
from Treasury and U.S. intelligence officials on the extent to 
which the Iranian regime and its proxies, including Hamas and 
Hezbollah, have utilized digital assets in financing regional 
and global terrorism. While we will continue to evaluate the 
precise sources of revenue for Hamas and other militant groups, 
public reports do indicate that there is some cause for 
concern. Notably, The Wall Street Journal estimated that 
digital currency wallets linked to the Palestinian Islamic 
Jihad received as much as $93 million, with Hamas receiving 
about $42 million between June 23rd and August 22nd.
    The Financial Crimes Enforcement Network (FinCEN) also 
recently publicly identified the illicit use of so-called 
international convertible virtual currency mixing by North 
Korea, Hamas, and other malicious state and nonstate actors as 
an acute money laundering concern and a serious national 
security risk.
    The crypto currency industry and its advocates have been 
quick to defend themselves, claiming that the amount of funding 
that has flowed through crypto channels is overestimated and is 
small in comparison to the amount of terrorism financing that 
flows through traditional finance. I do not necessarily buy 
that argument, as we have learned that it does not take much to 
fund terrorism.
    It is beyond argument, however, that crypto remains the 
preferred currency of organized crime and various cyberattacks. 
The criminal use of crypto has also dramatically escalated as 
high corruption governments that operate as safe havens for 
money laundering have continued to court unvetted crypto 
investors through purposeful deregulation.
    There are key features of crypto assets, such as inherent 
pseudonymity and their decentralized nature, that make them 
vulnerable and highly useful for illicit activity, including 
ransomware attacks. Treasury's recent, ``action plan,'' to 
address the illicit finance risks of digital assets recognizes 
that cyber criminals often require ransomware payments in the 
form of digital assets, frequently Bitcoin.
    According to an industry report, crypto payments to 
ransomware attacks reached $449 million in the first half of 
2023, which is up 40 percent from the same period last year. 
Victims of the largest ransomware attacks include hospitals, 
government offices, energy centers, and other critical entities 
that cybercriminal gangs identify to generate the largest 
ransoms.
    Just this week, we learned that the U.S. Financial Services 
Division of China's ICBC Bank was hit by a massive ransomware 
attack that disrupted trades in the U.S. Treasury market. The 
likely perpetrator of the attack? The hacking group LockBit has 
received tens of millions of dollars in Bitcoin as ransom 
payments in relation to over 1,400 attacks.
    I look forward to working with this subcommittee to examine 
further the ways in which cryptocurrency vulnerabilities are 
being used for all types of crimes, including money laundering, 
financial sanctions evasion, tax evasion, and other corruption-
related crimes such as bribery and embezzlement. Again, I 
appreciate the willingness of this esteemed panel to add their 
expertise to this debate.
    With that, Mr. Chairman, I yield back.
    Chairman Hill. The gentleman yields back. The Chair now 
recognizes the distinguished Chair of the full Financial 
Services Committee, Mr. McHenry of North Carolina.

  HON. PATRICK T. McHENRY, CHAIRMAN OF THE FINANCIAL SERVICES 
      COMMITTEE, A U.S. REPRESENTATIVE FROM NORTH CAROLINA

    Chairman McHenry. Thank you, Chairman Hill and thank you 
for holding this hearing. It is our job to cut through the 
noise and get to the facts, and I appreciate the witnesses 
being here today to testify about important things for Members 
of Congress to better understand the use of digital assets for 
illicit purposes. We want to know the extent of it and the ways 
that we can combat it.
    There have been conflicting reports regarding Hamas's 
fundraising efforts through digital assets. We know they use 
the traditional banking system, we know that they misuse cash 
and other forms of currency, and we know that bad actors prey 
on vulnerabilities wherever they can find them. There is 
bipartisan agreement, though, that we must hold these bad 
actors accountable in every way possible, and specifically when 
it comes to digital assets and the digital asset ecosystem.
    It is important to note that digital assets are built on 
transparent and open distributed ledger technology which makes 
it far easier to detect and track illicit activity. That is a 
good and useful thing, and I hope we can put aside the 
frequency of notions some may have and rely on the testimony of 
our witnesses today to draw conclusions.
    Thank you, Mr. Chairman, for your leadership, and I thank 
the Members for indulging the subcommittee this afternoon after 
a long week, and a long 10 weeks that we have been in session. 
Thank you, Chairman Hill.
    Chairman Hill. Thank you, Chairman McHenry.
    Today, we are proud to welcome the testimony of Mr. William 
Hughes, the senior counsel and director of global regulatory 
matters at Consensys Software, a blockchain technology company, 
and a former Associate Deputy Attorney General at the 
Department of Justice; Mr. Jonathan Levin, the co-founder and 
chief strategy officer at Chainalysis, one of the largest 
blockchain analytic firms; Mr. Gregory Lisa, the chief legal 
officer at DELV, a DeFi startup, a senior counsel at Hogan 
Lovells LLP, and the former Interim Director of the Office of 
Compliance and Enforcement at FinCEN; Ms. Jane Khodarkovsky, a 
partner at Arktouros, a law firm dedicated to emergent 
technologies, and a former trial attorney, and a former Human 
Trafficking Finance Specialist at the U.S. Department of 
Justice's Money Laundering and Asset Recovery Section; and Ms. 
Alison Jimenez, the president of Dynamic Securities Analytics, 
Inc., a litigation consulting firm specializing in securities, 
cryptocurrency and money laundering.
    We thank each of you for taking the time to be here. Each 
of you will be recognized for 5 minutes to give an oral 
presentation of your testimony. Without objection, each of your 
written statements will be made a part of the record.
    Mr. Hughes, you are recognized for 5 minutes.

 STATEMENT OF WILLIAM C. HUGHES, SENIOR COUNSEL & DIRECTOR OF 
 GLOBAL REGULATORY MATTERS, CONSENSYS SOFTWARE INC. AND FORMER 
 ASSOCIATE DEPUTY ATTORNEY GENERAL, U.S. DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE

    Mr. Hughes. Thank you, Chairman Hill, Ranking Member Lynch, 
and distinguished members of the subcommittee. My name is Bill 
Hughes, and I thank you for the invitation to testify on the 
important issue of illicit activity in digital assets. This is 
a critical topic for the Congress to debate, and I applaud your 
leadership in bringing this to the attention of the committee, 
and this subcommittee specifically.
    I work as a senior legal counsel at Consensys Software 
Inc., a blockchain software developer that is headquartered in 
Fort Worth, Texas. Our firm develops and offers the most-
popular unhosted wallet software in digital assets, the 
MetaMask wallet. This wallet is an interface that allows the 
user to read and write to the blockchain without any 
intermediary's help, akin to how a web browser is a consumer's 
direct connection to the Web. The wallet also safeguards a 
user's private key, which is the cryptographic password which 
the user must have to control a particular blockchain account, 
also called a public address. Users in the U.S. and across the 
globe are free to use a long list of wallets to read and write 
to the blockchain and to securely store their private keys.
    As a U.S.-based blockchain technology company, we believe 
that it is good that technology providers are expected to 
follow the law. In our experience, U.S.-based blockchain 
projects generally do. Permission-less blockchain networks are 
new technologies that have real value and present exciting new 
opportunities, but at the same time, we must not accept or 
equivocate about bad actors using these technologies to commit 
crimes. How the law should evolve to meet the dynamic threat of 
illicit finance is an important issue, and we are glad to be 
part of that discussion.
    Combating money laundering is a difficult task in any 
space, but digital assets present capabilities with respect to 
tracking and disrupting money laundering that law enforcement, 
and the public at large, have never had before because open, 
permissionless blockchain ledgers are reviewable by anyone, 
anywhere, transactions can be traced using blockchain analytics 
technology, even those transactions that are purposely 
complicated to obfuscate the flow of funds. Any policy response 
to the threat of money laundering should embrace the 
transparency of the blockchain and bolster the power of 
transaction analytics if it hopes to be successful. While 
analytics technology is helpful now, it must continue to 
improve if illicit finance and digital assets is going to be 
sufficiently addressed.
    We think on-chain user security is also essential, and that 
is a core focus of Consenys when we think about MetaMask users.
    Digital assets also present some new challenges. Today, 
critical weaknesses remain in the centralized entities, 
specifically those that provide central order book exchanges 
services. It is important to keep in mind during our discussion 
today that traditional finance remains the overwhelmingly-
popular space for launderers to operate, and the estimated 
volume of illicit on-chain activity, when compared with illicit 
activity, is remarkably low. Regardless, illicit finance is a 
serious concern that deserves our attention, and we must be 
vigilant that such use of digital assets does not become more 
prevalent.
    This can be done by getting more global uniformity in 
regulating exchanges and stablecoins. Policymakers should 
consider regulatory sandboxes to improve not only blockchain 
analytics technology, but also technologies around digital 
identity. Blockchain offers the opportunity to actually improve 
privacy protections and data security, while also achieving 
compliance, and we should not turn it down but rather fully 
explore what is possible. We must also improve public-private 
collaboration on difficult policy issues such as those 
presented by decentralized finance, and bolster intelligence 
sharing to put law enforcement in the best position to trace, 
stop, and recover laundered funds.
    Productive policies with respect to combating money 
laundering using digital assets is a net good for the 
blockchain ecosystem, and I am encouraged by this 
subcommittee's attention to these important matters.
    Thank you very much.

    [The prepared statement of Mr. Hughes follows:]
   [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
    
    Chairman Hill. Thank you, Mr. Hughes.
    Mr. Levin, you are recognized for 5 minutes.

   STATEMENT OF JONATHAN LEVIN, CO-FOUNDER & CHIEF STRATEGY 
                      OFFICER, CHAINALYSIS

    Mr. Levin. Good afternoon, Chairman Hill, Ranking Member 
Lynch, and members of the subcommittee. My name is Jonathan 
Levin, and I am one of the co-founders of Chainalysis, the 
leading blockchain analysis company. I am grateful for the 
opportunity to testify again before this committee at this 
important time, as the current issue at hand is particularly 
close to my heart.
    The tragic events beginning on October 7th have shined a 
light on our core focus at Chainalysis: detecting and 
disrupting bad actors that use cryptocurrencies for terrorist 
financing and other illicit purposes. We have spent almost a 
decade working with law enforcement agencies and intelligence 
services in the United States, Israel, and other allied 
countries around the world to maximize disruption of these 
networks. Our many joint successes have marked the dawn of a 
new era of financial intelligence for governments around the 
world.
    Financial intelligence has historically been composed of 
government collections and reporting from financial 
institutions. This is typically not real-time and is highly 
dependent on domestic services and institutions to report on 
suspicious activity. Insights into international transactions 
is often mired in complex international collaboration and 
information-sharing arrangements. Cryptocurrencies mark a 
departure from this era. It enables all governments around the 
world to have access to every single transaction that has ever 
happened in cryptocurrencies, and the information sharing about 
these transactions allows for full networks to be uncovered.
    Cryptocurrency transactions are inherently public, and the 
data from those transactions is preserved on a transparent and 
immutable ledger. At Chainalysis, we analyze these transactions 
from blockchain networks, and in conjunction with open source 
information and our proprietary data collection we map the 
ecosystem of participants in these networks. We then provide 
software solutions, data, and investigative support to allow 
investigators to trace the flow of transactions and identify 
potential illicit activity.
    To that end, I want to offer some additional context on the 
use of cryptocurrencies to finance Hamas and other similar 
groups and how that activity actually gets disrupted when 
governments work with Chainalysis and the industry.
    There is evidence of terrorist organizations operating in 
Gaza attempting to raise funds using cryptocurrency as early as 
2016. This involves both the use of cryptocurrency directly but 
also networks of enablers and facilitators that leverage 
otherwise legitimate services to finance terrorist activities. 
These services could be hawala service and over-the-counter 
exchanges.
    Historically, the broader network of enablers has been very 
difficult to detect and disrupt when moving fiat currency. 
However, the utilization of crypto by these networks has now 
made it possible for law enforcement to detect and disrupt 
these terror financial donation campaigns.
    For example, in August 2020, the Department of Justice 
announced that with the aid of Chainalysis it had dismantled 
the terrorist financing campaigns by the military wing of Hamas 
and by ISIS, and seized millions of dollars' worth of 
cryptocurrencies. Similarly, in the past 2 years the Israeli 
government, again with the support of Chainalysis, has 
undertaken multiple successful seizures of cryptocurrencies 
intended for groups supporting Hamas, and including those of 
the Hezbollah and Iran's Quds Force. In practice, this has 
involved international collaboration, trusted public-private 
partnerships, and working with the private sector to freeze 
both the accounts at cryptocurrency exchanges and other wallet 
addresses associated with this financing.
    In 2023, Hamas publicly announced that it was shutting down 
its campaign to accept cryptocurrency as donations, citing 
successful government efforts to prosecute donors. Despite 
their own acknowledgement of them ceasing to stop using 
cryptocurrencies and the inherent ineffectiveness of this 
method, we continue to work with law enforcement around the 
world to detect and disrupt the use of cryptocurrency by Hamas 
and the different entities facilitating and enabling their 
actions.
    The reality, though, is more can be done. First, the 
Federal Government should provide a path to compliance with the 
digital asset industry in order to increase the amount of 
domestic touchpoints for stablecoin issuers and cryptocurrency 
exchanges for appropriate Federal regulation. Second, we need 
to continue to close the gap on international partners that 
allow for unlicensed exchanges to continue to operate.
    Finally, and perhaps most importantly, the United States 
should prioritize arming the government with the necessary 
resources to disrupt this activity with real-time data, 
sophisticated technology, and cutting-edge expertise.
    I look forward to answering your questions.

    [The prepared statement of Mr. Levin follows:]
    [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
    
    Chairman Hill. Thank you very much.
    Mr. Lisa, you are recognized for 5 minutes.

STATEMENT OF GREGORY C. LISA, CHIEF LEGAL OFFICER, DELV (F/K/A 
  ELEMENT FINANCE); SENIOR COUNSEL, HOGAN LOVELLS; AND FORMER 
    INTERIM DIRECTOR, OFFICE OF COMPLIANCE AND ENFORCEMENT, 
         FINANCIAL CRIMES ENFORCEMENT NETWORK (FINCEN)

    Mr. Lisa. Thank you so much, and good afternoon, Chairman 
Hill, Ranking Member Lynch, and members of the subcommittee. I 
very much appreciate the opportunity today, and I also wanted 
to extend my thanks to your staff. They have been nothing short 
of exceptional in arranging this today.
    My name is Greg Lisa, and I am the chief legal officer at 
DELV, a DeFi startup. I am also a senior counsel at Hogan 
Lovells, where I was a partner for 5 years.
    Most of my career, though, has been in government service, 
starting at the U.S. Department of Justice for 12 years, 10 of 
which I was a Federal prosecutor in the Organized Crime 
Section, prosecuting organized crime and illicit finance in 
public corruption cases. After that, in 2011 I joined the 
Consumer Financial Protection Bureau (CFPB) as one of the 
agency's first enforcement attorneys, and then shortly after 
that, I joined FinCEN, first in the Casinos and MSB Section, 
where we had some of the very first anti-money laundering (AML) 
cases against crypto companies, and then later, I headed up the 
Office of Compliance and Enforcement at FinCEN.
    I would like to address a couple of issues, if I may, first 
around blockchain analytics and financial investigations, and 
then also, the illicit finance risk connected to crypto.
    I think almost all criminal activity, maybe with the 
exception of crimes of passion and a handful of others, are 
connected to profit motive, and are connected to the desire to 
gain money. Even absent some of those crimes, for instance, in 
ideological terrorism, those cannot succeed without equipment, 
logistics, and funding. So, it is not surprising that the 
mantra of every prosecutor and every regulator is, follow the 
money, because if you find where the profits are flowing you 
find where the leaders are, where the financiers are, and where 
the organization is actually going to be most impacted by 
disruption.
    The reality is that for investigators and prosecutors, 
traditional financial investigations are difficult and 
cumbersome. Sometimes, they are ineffective for that reason. 
Smoking guns are incredibly rare. Those investigations are put 
together one brick at a time, with bank records, with mutual 
legal assistance treaty (MLAT) requests for foreign records, or 
opaque or sometimes misleading business documents, so 
sometimes, it just requires a bit of luck for investigators to 
actually disrupt a criminal enterprise.
    Blockchain investigations are different. The 
characteristics and nature of most blockchains--transparency, 
accessibility, immutability, and reliability--provide 
significant advantages in helping to detect and prevent illicit 
finance. Over the last several years, public-private 
partnerships have yielded some amazing successes: Silk Road, 
Bitfinex, Welcome to Video, BTC-e, and countless others.
    Let's talk about the illicit finance risk connected to 
crypto, and it depends on who you ask if you are looking for 
metrics and data, because the estimates range from anywhere 
north of 50 percent of all crypto use being illicit, to less 
than a fraction of a percent.
    Respectfully, I think that both numbers are wrong. I try to 
lay that out, the reasons why, in my formal testimony. It is 
clearly important that we not underestimate the risk around 
crypto, as with any financial instrument, because we cannot 
have crypto being the source of an economic meltdown or the 
source of the next 9/11. We cannot forget the fact that 
criminals and terror financiers are adaptive, they are 
innovative, they are often tech-savvy, and they are always 
resourceful, but there is also a very real chance that 
overreaction, especially overreaction in regulation, will 
simply serve to drive crypto underground, offshore, and beneath 
the radar. Regulation can work, and it should, but overreaction 
with regulation can undermine exactly what we are trying to do. 
It can make compliance impossible. It can divert resources away 
from actual risks. It can make unregulated environments and 
jurisdictions the only places where companies succeed and 
survive. As a result, an overreaction can jeopardize national 
security, and it can make our problems far worse. Ceding ground 
to China, Russia, or other jurisdictions may be far worse.
    The U.S. is the center of the international financial 
system because it is known for its strength, its stability, its 
resilience, and its safety. It is home to much innovation and 
many of the world's entrepreneurs. It is hardly perfect, but 
the U.S. also leads in anti-money laundering (AML) oversight. 
Other countries and economies look to us for responsible, bold, 
and thoughtful leadership but there is no guarantee that will 
always be the case. If we fail in U.S. leadership, either by 
underreacting or by overreacting, we run the risk that we 
relinquish our role and other nations look elsewhere, including 
to other jurisdictions that might not have our same national 
interests, and may even be even hostile to us. The national 
security implications of that would be far-reaching and 
potentially irreversible.
    Getting this right is essential for the industry as well. 
People will not put their funds in a system that they do not 
trust. Nobody wants to provide liquidity to Hamas or to the 
North Korean weapons regime or to have a Russian oligarch or a 
drug lord as their counterparty. Getting this right and 
addressing this risk is critical to the legitimacy of this 
industry, and to our national security.
    Thank you again for the opportunity, and I look forward to 
the committee's questions.

    [The prepared statement of Mr. Lisa follows:]
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    Chairman Hill. Thank you, Mr. Lisa.
    Ms. Khodarkovsky, you are recognized for 5 minutes.

STATEMENT OF JANE KHODARKOVSKY, PARTNER, ARKTOUROS; AND FORMER 
   HUMAN TRAFFICKING FINANCE SPECIALIST, U.S. DEPARTMENT OF 
     JUSTICE'S MONEY LAUNDERING AND ASSET RECOVERY SECTION

    Ms. Khodarkovsky. Thank you, Chairman Hill, Ranking Member 
Lynch, and members of the subcommittee, for holding this 
hearing and inviting me to participate. I am honored to speak 
with you today and grateful to contribute to this discourse.
    In 1992, when I was a child, my family and I left Odessa, 
Ukraine, as refugees. I sit before you the product of the 
United States' leadership in innovation and promotion of 
democratic ideals while countering illicit finance and 
autocratic regimes.
    As a Trial Attorney and Human Trafficking Finance 
Specialist in the Money Laundering and Asset Recovery Section 
of the U.S. Department of Justice, I investigated and 
prosecuted financial crimes. It was critical to follow the 
money to detect, dismantle, and disrupt criminal activity and 
to ensure that assets could be seized and forfeited, depriving 
criminal networks of their ill-gotten gains.
    I am often asked why I transitioned from the DOJ to the 
private sector to work in the blockchain space. The answer is 
quite simple: I believe that this technology is critical to the 
future. As a particular technology and the way in which it is 
used evolves, so, too, should the risk-based analysis of 
whether the legislative, regulatory, and legal frameworks 
should follow.
    The U.S. has robust anti-money laundering and 
counterterrorist laws and regulations that apply to the digital 
asset ecosystem. This framework has helped stop illicit 
activity, while leveraging the attributes of the blockchain: 
traceability, transparency, and immutability. U.S. centralized 
cryptocurrency exchanges and fiat on- and off-ramps conduct 
transaction monitoring using blockchain forensics to identify 
suspicious activity, regardless of whether the transaction 
occurred on their platform, and cut off bad actors. This 
contrasts with traditional financial institutions, which only 
have visibility into customers or transactions that occur 
within their bank.
    In response to Office of Foreign Assets Control (OFAC) 
sanctions, U.S.-based stablecoin issuers can blacklist 
interactions within an application and freeze assets in 
wallets. The ability to freeze wallet addresses on the 
secondary market to comply with sanctions is unique to 
blockchains, not banks.
    While Chainalysis 2020 data suggests that the percentage of 
all cryptocurrency activity associated with illicit activity 
was 0.24 percent, bad actors continue to exploit traditional 
finance. Related to Russia, DOJ seized yachts worth just under 
$1 billion, real estate worth an estimated $75 million, and 
more. None were reported to be purchased with cryptocurrency. 
Russia continues to evade sanctions using gold, oil, and other 
strategic sectors. Human traffickers from China, Mexico, and 
elsewhere use cash, funnel accounts, and shell companies to 
profit from the exploitation of others.
    Terrorist organizations also diversify their funding 
streams. In recent weeks, news headlines focused on 
cryptocurrency, but terrorists also use global investment 
portfolios, charities, foreign aid, hawalas, and cash. There is 
no public ledger for cash or hawalas.
    No amount of funds for terrorism is acceptable, but we 
cannot be myopic. So, while autocratic regimes and terrorist 
organizations use every tool in their arsenal, vulnerable 
populations turn to the digital asset ecosystem. When Russia 
invaded Ukraine, my family scrambled to assist loved ones. 
Owners' compliance processes at banks and money services 
businesses (MSBs) caused long delays, leaving many with limited 
to no access to necessary funds. Ukraine has raised $100 
million in crypto after soliciting for donations, and 
Ukrainians used Bitcoin and Ether to support themselves.
    In the aftermath of the barbaric terrorist attack by Hamas 
on Israeli civilians, once again, humanitarian aid came in the 
form of crypto. I believe U.S. lawmakers must recognize that 
juxtaposition. The U.S. must lead to stop the jurisdictional 
arbitrage foreign actors are exploiting. In July 2023, the 
Financial Action Task Force (FATF) urged countries to implement 
travel rule requirements, as only about 29 of 98 jurisdictions 
had done so.
    With this context, I recommend lawmakers consider: first, 
ensuring that compliant U.S.-based companies in the digital 
asset ecosystem remain in the United States to avoid increased 
criminal activity offshore, technological decline, and the 
undermining of U.S. interests; second, using tools to isolate 
autocratic regimes that use technology to surveil their 
civilian communities, undermine basic liberties, and fund 
terrorism; and third, leaning into innovation through genuine 
sandboxes where the private sector showcases, in a prudent and 
compliant manner, tools to leverage activity-based risk 
management on public ledgers.
    I am grateful to share my experiences to ensure that the 
United States continues to be the epicenter for innovation and 
stands staunchly against autocrats and terrorists.
    Thank you.

    [The prepared statement of Ms. Khodarkovsky follows:]
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    Chairman Hill. Thank you.
    Ms. Jimenez, you are recognized for 5 minutes.

STATEMENT OF ALISON JIMENEZ, ECONOMIST, AND PRESIDENT, DYNAMIC 
                   SECURITIES ANALYTICS, INC.

    Ms. Jimenez. Thank you for the invitation to appear before 
you today to discuss illicit activity in digital assets.
    My name is Alison Jimenez. I am an economist and the 
president of Dynamic Securities Analytics. For 25 years, I have 
been examining financial crime and money laundering issues. 
Recently, much of my research has focused on the use of 
cryptocurrency in illicit finance.
    Before addressing cryptocurrency crime specifically, it is 
useful to understand how a bad actor evaluates financial 
products generally. When a bad actor wants to conduct a 
financial transaction, they will assess whether a financial 
product can move funds: first, fast; second, far; third, in 
large amounts; fourth, irreversibly; fifth, anonymously; and 
sixth, to a third party. There is no one feature that drives a 
bad actor to a particular financial product, and anonymity is 
just one feature that bad actors weigh. While a truckload of 
nickels and dimes is anonymous, it cannot be moved far or fast.
    Cryptocurrency is attractive to bad actors because it has 
so many of the features they value in a financial product. 
Blockchain-based cryptocurrency transactions move far, fast, in 
large amounts, irreversibly, anonymously, and to third parties. 
Dismissing cryptocurrency as a useful tool for illicit finance 
just because some transactions are recorded on the blockchain 
is misguided and wholly inconsistent with cryptocurrency 
suspicious activity reports, FBI advisories, and victim 
complaints.
    My research into cryptocurrency Suspicious Activity Reports 
(SARs) found that first, the number of SARs related to 
cryptocurrency is growing exponentially. There were 92,000 
crypto SARs filed in 2021, more in that one year than from 2013 
to 2020.
    Second, some bad actors prefer to use cryptocurrency over 
many other financial products. For example, there were more 
cryptocurrency SARs in 2021 than for all security and all 
investment type SARs for a 6-year period from 2014 to 2020.
    Third, the dollar value of cryptocurrency SARs hovers 
around $1 million, with more than $96 billion in suspicious 
transactions reported in 2021. Take, for example, ransomware. 
The number of ransomware SARs is increasing dramatically. Bad 
actors are exclusively demanding payment in cryptocurrency, and 
the average Bitcoin ransom was over $900,000.
    Cryptocurrency-related SARs filings overwhelmingly 
contradict the thesis that bad actors do not use crypto.
    Next, the FBI has issued numerous advisories based on 
victim complaints from your constituencies about cryptocurrency 
scams, and I will focus just on one: ``pig butchering.'' ``Pig 
butchering'' is a horrific crime, and it is a type of romance 
scam which leverages the features of cryptocurrency to defraud 
Americans. Scammers fatten up the victims by faking intimacy 
via an online relationship before turning the conversation to a 
cannot-lose crypto investment scam. Last year, the FBI received 
over 30,000 complaints about cryptocurrency investment scams, 
and victims reported over $2.6 billion in losses.
    Compounding the horror to the American victims, the 
scammers on the other end of the text messages or emails are 
often victims of human trafficking who were lured by fake job 
ads and are being held against their will in scam compounds in 
Southeast Asia, and forced to meet quotas under the threat of 
violence from transnational organized crime groups.
    Turning to blockchain analytics, if all cryptocurrency 
transactions were in iceberg, the crypto transactions that are 
subject to blockchain analytics is just the tip. Here is why. 
Most crypto transactions occur off the blockchain within 
exchanges, thereby evading blockchain analytics and for those 
transactions that are on-chain, bad actors have taken multiple 
steps and have used multiple methods including mixers, chain 
hopping, and side chains, for example, to obfuscate their 
activity.
    Finally, attribution remains an ongoing challenge, 
especially in the private sector, which may not have the same 
access to data and information as law enforcement and U.S. 
intelligence.
    Thank you, and I look forward to your questions.

    [The prepared statement of Ms. Jimenez follows:]
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    Chairman Hill. Thank you very much. As everybody can see, 
we have an excellent panel who will be very good on this topic. 
We are now going to turn to Member questions, and the Chair 
recognizes himself for 5 minutes of questioning.
    On the last comment Ms. Jimenez made, as a banker for 40 
years, filing a SAR does not necessarily mean a crime has taken 
place but it would not surprise me that crypto SARs go up, 
because no one knows what crypto is in banks. So if they see a 
crypto-type transaction, they may file a SAR, which is a good 
thing. That is what we want them to do, to provide that data, 
and that is how we learn and have a better supervisory process.
    I want to start out with Mr. Levin, and talk a little bit 
about this Wall Street Journal story, which is, in some ways, 
what prompts us all to be here today--not completely, we would 
be talking about illicit finance with crypto, period but with 
what has happened in the last month and the publicity around it 
certainly is a triggering event.
    You testified that DOJ and Israel have used blockchain 
analytics and other tools to shut down Hamas, ISIS, and Iran's 
use of crypto. My first question is, when you look at The Wall 
Street Journal story saying that $130 million worth of digital 
assets over the past few years has been sent to ISIS, and you 
are suggesting that was severely misinterpreted, tell us how 
that is the case?
    Mr. Levin. Thanks, Mr. Chairman. The information and the 
figures quoted are a representation of both the amounts that 
can be linked to actual terrorist financing, such as a group 
like Hamas, but also the broader network of facilitators and 
intermediaries that were caught up in the network of financing 
terrorism. So, when you look at these headline figures, they 
can contain a lot of legitimate activity over the years that 
those businesses were in operation, and the amount that is 
strictly linked to terrorist activity has to be investigated by 
government agencies and shown that these specific amounts were 
actually linked to Hamas financing.
    That is where the distinction that we show in our work is 
that when the Israeli authorities list addresses, or when OFAC 
lists addresses that are associated to bad actors, there has to 
be a distinction between the enablers that are being disrupted 
and the actual money that is being given to terrorists.
    Chairman Hill. Just on the ransomware topic, which is also 
connected to this general theme, the FBI, for example, on 
Colonial Pipeline, used chain analytics-type analytical tools 
to basically get that money back. Ms. Jimenez is saying, for 
example, that people use side chains, off-chain mixers to 
inhibit their being identified on the blockchain. Do you agree 
with that, and if so, how does this committee direct the 
Executive Branch to stop that?
    Mr. Levin. The Executive Branch needs the tools and 
capabilities at their disposal to go after these issues, and my 
thought about the way that should happen is that they need 
better access to data, and better access to software and 
expertise to actually affect those types of operations.
    Chairman Hill. Are you saying that if you have that, those 
actually do not obfuscate somebody's identity? You can 
penetrate that and find it?
    Mr. Levin. Yes. You can find ways to penetrate these 
networks, particularly those that are sophisticated and large 
scale because those are ones that the government can actually 
put resources behind to get after.
    Chairman Hill. This is a really important, because, 
particularly over in the Senate, we are talking about rewriting 
all of the rules of the road here, and I want to make sure the 
tail is not wagging the dog. In other words, I want to make 
sure that we provide the resources to the intelligence 
community, and to the Treasury Department to look through that 
pseudo-anonymity and convince Members of Congress that is a 
doable thing, and not go off on a side, chasing down something 
that is very challenging to do.
    Can you give us more specifics in writing on precisely 
what, so that our Members can be more informed about how to 
make that happen?
    Mr. Levin. Yes. We would be happy to provide sort of 
additional support in writing on the current state. I would say 
that the government has come a long way since I first testified 
in front of this committee on being able to actually leverage 
this technology. There is a lot more that can be done with 
proactive detection and data that I think the government needs 
in order to take extra steps in being able to prevent the next 
sort of terrorist financing.
    Chairman Hill. Thank you very much. I look forward to that.
    My time has expired. I now call on the ranking member of 
the subcommittee, Mr. Lynch, for his 5 minutes of questions.
    Mr. Lynch. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Ms. Jimenez, the 
decentralized, borderless, and pseudonymous features of digital 
assets as well as their convenient access, storage, and 
transfer features are highly attractive to bad actors, as you 
mentioned. They satisfy the needs and the preferences of bad 
actors, criminal enterprises as well as other actors who would 
operate globally, and much to the detriment of the integrity of 
our financial system.
    So, we have much to lose here, because there is so much 
faith and trust in the U.S. financial system that, again, the 
advantages of having the reserve currency of choice and having 
trusted financial institutions would disappear if that were 
undermined.
    I know you have had some experience in dealing with some 
state-operated criminal enterprises such as North Korea, and I 
wonder if you could talk about the dangers--we have talked 
about this before, but I wonder if you could just explain how 
that state operator is operating in this space and the threat 
that it offers to our national security here in the United 
States?
    Ms. Jimenez. Thank you for that question. Broadly speaking 
about national security threats via the use of cryptocurrency, 
North Korea is a prime example. North Korea is very technically 
advanced in the hacking of cryptocurrency exchanges and other 
virtual asset service providers. They use those stolen funds to 
help fund their nuclear program. Not only do they steal funds 
from both U.S.-based and global cryptocurrency exchanges, they 
then cash out the cryptocurrency that they stole.
    In addition to North Korea, there are other national 
security risks. We talked about terror finance briefly, but 
there is also the transnational organized crime risk of 
organized groups, whether it is drug cartels remitting profits 
over international borders, that see this as a useful tool 
because of that borderless nature, a large dollar value. Unless 
you have that intelligence that this particular transaction is 
linked to illicit activity, it just gets blown in with the 
transactions. It is not particularly identified as suspicious 
without some sort of intelligence that is external to the 
blockchain.
    Another use is the sanction evasion and the movement of 
funds for Russian oligarchs. So, there are a variety of threats 
that cryptocurrency is currently being exploited for that pose 
national security threats to the United States. Thank you.
    Mr. Lynch. What would you suggest? We have had a number of 
bills come through this committee that, for instance, would 
take away jurisdiction of the SEC, which has been a primary 
mover in this space, and place it with the Commodity Futures 
Trading Commission (CFTC). What would you recommend in terms of 
our response to try to deal with some of these vulnerabilities 
that are present in the digital asset space?
    Ms. Jimenez. I think the first step in something that 
legislation can do is address U.S. institutions that are 
dealing with this. There have been a lot of good proposals 
about adding transparency, and whether that regulator is the 
SEC, which has a lot more broad experience investigating 
financial crimes compared to the CFTC, which also does a good 
job, but the depth and breadth of what the SEC has been doing, 
just purely from the number of SARs filings--the CFTC barely 
gets a couple hundred a year, and there are tens of thousands 
that the SEC receives. So, the SEC is just a little bit more 
used to dealing with that financial crime aspect.
    With the U.S. legislation, it still does not change the 
underlying features of the cryptocurrency, and I am concerned 
that we might have great rules, and if the U.S. institutions 
follow them, that is wonderful but U.S. citizens and customers 
will still be victims of those external organizations that are 
going to come here because we have a robust economy and we have 
people with money that they can steal through these exchanges. 
So, we might be able to adjust and limit some of the issues we 
have seen within exchanges, but it is not going to stop being a 
useful tool for criminals, since they are international in 
nature.
    Mr. Lynch. Thank you. Mr. Chairman, my time has expired. I 
yield back.
    Chairman Hill. The ranking member yields back. Now, we turn 
to the Vice Chair of the subcommittee, the gentleman from Ohio, 
Mr. Davidson, for 5 minutes.
    Mr. Davidson. I thank the chairman and thank you to our 
witnesses. I appreciate having this hearing to kind of correct 
the record. There is a lot of misinformation and disinformation 
out there on this topic in particular, and no, I am not calling 
for a disinformation governance board or a ministry of truth to 
set the record straight. We can have hearings like this, and 
hopefully, an honest, free press will get the word out as well.
    Mr. Hughes, in your testimony you state that, ``any policy 
response to the threat of money laundering should embrace the 
transparency of the blockchain and bolster the power of 
transaction analytics.'' At that basic level, the idea that it 
is on a public, immutable, distributed ledger that is fully 
auditable answers a lot of the misinformation and 
disinformation. Do you believe that our current Bank Secrecy 
Act/Anti-Money Laundering (BSA/AML) framework for all money 
services businesses and banking and financial services in the 
United States allows for sufficient reporting requirements in 
this space?
    Mr. Hughes. I think currently, you see the majority of 
digital asset activity on the centralized intermediaries like 
exchanges, so the big exchanges in this country are the money 
services businesses subject to the BSA. I believe they report 
SARs. So, that is a very important piece of the puzzle.
    I think you are exactly right. Blockchain analytics is 
crucial. Everybody, not only law enforcement, but everybody in 
the industry really uses it because you all have services and 
you want to maintain the integrity of the services. You want 
them to be used for lawful purposes. So, they are a very great 
tool to ensure you are safeguarding your services in that way 
but it can be improved.
    You have an immutable record that goes back to the 
beginning of the chain. The information about what wallets are 
problematic and what transactions may be illicit could speed 
up. You could get that out to people faster, so their services 
can safeguard themselves more quickly. You can spot exploiter 
wallets, and you can spot illicit flows more quickly. I think 
that technology is going to develop as blockchain analytics 
continues to be used, especially as more collaboration between 
private industry and law enforcement occurs.
    Largely, I think a lot of the debate about what to do on-
chain with security and stopping flows has to do with the basic 
debate about regulating software, the development of it and the 
use of it. That is not a debate that we have really had in this 
country or anywhere else. It is just beginning in this country 
as well as overseas, and I think that there are a number of 
legislative proposals which actually propose----
    Mr. Davidson. We definitely have people who want everyone 
to get permission to do virtually everything from the 
government or via their credentialed third-party agent, and 
that is just kind of dystopian for a lot of us. I think a lot 
of the people back home--prosecutors, law enforcement folks--
are just looking at it and saying, ``How do we catch the bad 
guys?'' They are used to using the current framework to catch 
the bad guys, and they just want to know that in a new era, 
they can continue to use some sort of framework to catch the 
bad guys.
    Ms. Khodarkovsky, I thought you did a nice job in your 
written testimony. It was pretty thorough and extensive. I 
enjoyed everyone's testimony, but I particularly thought you 
did a nice job of explaining the architecture of blockchain, in 
particular. When you look at one of the things that people 
target, anything that you would anonymize, one of the 
challenges with some blockchain applications is if you have 
hundreds of Bitcoin, as an example, in self-custody, in a 
wallet, which is still permissible and legal in this country, 
and you move it, then it is obvious to somebody that you have 
that many coins in a wallet.
    So, there are legal and rational reasons why someone would 
want to provide a little more anonymity. That alone should tell 
you that it is not entirely secret. Could you elaborate on 
that, and on legitimate uses of anonymizing transactions?
    Ms. Khodarkovsky. Thank you for your question, and speaking 
as a former prosecutor, it is very important to balance 
combating criminal activity and preserving some of the 
fundamental rights in the U.S. that we hold dear, which include 
privacy. There are ways for law enforcement to investigate and 
trace assets on the blockchain because of its traceability and 
immutability, even if individuals are using self-hosted 
wallets, because they will interact under our current, robust 
U.S. AML framework with centralized exchange or on/off ramps 
when they exchange their digital assets for fiat, and they will 
go through that process.
    Mr. Davidson. Yes, thank you. I wish I had longer with each 
of you, and in particular the idea of debunking the idea that 
lots of SARs equals lots of illicit activity but my time has 
expired, and I yield back.
    Chairman Hill. Time has indeed expired. Dr. Foster is now 
recognized for 5 minutes.
    Mr. Foster. Thank you. I would like to first get an idea of 
actually where we are in terms of anonymity. Just to be 
specific, Ms. Jimenez, if you had $10,000 of Bitcoin that you 
had just gotten from a ransomware attack, do you believe that 
you know what is necessary to make that anonymously arrive as 
dollars in your bank account through a series of whatever 
transactions are necessary? In a way that Mr. Levin could never 
discuss, how could you return that money to yourself?
    Ms. Jimenez. Thank you. I believe there are ways, and let 
me cite a statistic for that, since I am an economist. These 
was previously cited the Colonial Pipeline ransomware, and 
there was a success in that case where part of the ransomware 
was recovered, and that is with knowing that ransomware, in 
fact, happened. It was a public event that was in June of 2021.
    In the next 6 months of 2021, there were another almost 800 
ransomware attacks that were about $488 million, and there was 
zero recovery on any of those, to date. It is possible 
something in the future might be uncovered. There are 
occasionally successes, and I applaud the efforts of blockchain 
analytics, but there are many, many, many more instances that 
are not caught at all, and the people who have been damaged by 
ransomware maybe eventually getting that money back does not 
undo the damage. Your business has already shut down. You 
already were waiting hours in line for gasoline because the 
pumps were not working. Your health care provider was sending 
you to the----
    Mr. Foster. No, the damage is clear. It is a technical 
question.
    Ms. Khodarkovsky, do you believe that you could take a 
bunch of stolen Bitcoin, where everyone knows that is a 
criminal wallet, and then go through a series of transactions 
and make it return to your bank account in a way that no one 
could figure out who it was?
    Ms. Khodarkovsky. I believe that we have tools that would 
make tracing the Bitcoin, which is on a public ledger----
    Mr. Foster. No, you are allowed to put it through mixers, 
convert it to Monero, whatever is necessary, take it offshore, 
put it through self-hosted wallets. You are allowed all of 
those things. Do you believe that you could launder it and put 
it back in your bank account in a way that no one could detect 
it, with what is in place right now, internationally?
    Ms. Khodarkovsky. I believe in the U.S., we have strong 
laws that would----
    Mr. Foster. What is in place internationally? Could you do 
it? If you were allowed to go offshore, could you do it?
    Ms. Khodarkovsky. I think the U.S. needs to help our 
foreign partners----
    Mr. Foster. Not all of our foreign partners are going to 
cooperate. With what is in place internationally--I just want 
to try to get an answer.
    Mr. Lisa. I'm sorry, Congressman. I think the short answer 
to your question is yes, I think you could. The easiest way to 
do that would be to go to an exchange like Garantex in Moscow, 
where you could go offshore to a noncompliant exchange----
    Mr. Foster. Right. So, what you are saying is regulating 
the on- and off-ramps is insufficient to prevent money 
laundering, that as long as you can take the on-ramp, go 
offshore with it, with self-hosted wallets or whatever, do all 
your dirty work offshore, and then return it back on an on-
ramp, it is actually--what are the regulatory regimes that 
could work to prevent that? Does someone propose something that 
would actually prevent that from happening, and what would be 
necessary for it?
    Mr. Lisa. Thank you again for that question. There are 
efforts, I think, there are tools that the U.S. currently has 
and currently is attempting to use. At the end of the day, I 
think it is attempting to try to close gaps. One of those tools 
that OFAC used was sanctioning Garantex. There could be other 
efforts as well, largely by attempting to use the leverage that 
we have against foreign actors, which might include through our 
alliances, through our attaches, to ensure that those offshore 
exchanges, the ones that are noncompliant, become isolated. 
They effectively become radioactive to the rest of the world.
    That is not a perfect system, but frankly, there are no 
perfect systems in this. I respectfully suggest that it is much 
better to have an offshore-compliant, noncompliant exchange 
than it is to be driving the compliant exchanges here in the 
U.S., so that I could not do that out of my Coinbase account or 
out of my Kraken account. I agree, that is a gap.
    Mr. Foster. Yes. Mr. Levin, do you have any ideas on how 
you could actually prevent this internationally, given the 
number of noncompliant entities offshore?
    Mr. Levin. Yes. I think we need to be focused on the 
disruption efforts that are possible with the existing 
authorities, both in the intelligence community and in law 
enforcement. We have assisted in helping the U.S. Government 
also seize foreign exchanges like BTC-e, where that was taken 
down, and all of the assets were seized by U.S. authorities, 
where that type of problem exists.
    Mr. Foster. Thank you. I yield back.
    Chairman Hill. Thank you. The gentleman yields back. Mr. 
Rose of Tennessee is recognized for 5 minutes.
    Mr. Rose. Thank you, Chairman Hill, and thank you to our 
witnesses for being with us today.
    Mr. Lisa, I kind of want to pick up where you just were. We 
see a lot of illicit financial activity occur on a global scale 
and it involves cross-border transactions. Therefore, whatever 
we do from a policy perspective will be of limited effect 
unless we can facilitate coordination with foreign regulations 
and law enforcement, it seems to me.
    Would you describe how we can improve this coordination 
going beyond or building on what you were just saying?
    Mr. Lisa. Yes, and thank you for that question, Congressman 
Rose. I think there are a couple of different approaches to it. 
There are some things, of course, that the U.S. can do 
unilaterally. If you are a foreign MSB, FinCEN has had the 
authority to charge you since 2011. You can use sanctions 
authority or Section 311.
    Internationally, however, we are more limited in terms of 
our ability. We cannot fly to Moscow and apprehend the Garantex 
officials.
    What we can do is drive capacity-building overseas with our 
attaches. We can drive further expertise so that firms like 
Chainalysis and other blockchain analytics firms are being used 
elsewhere through our foreign allies to ensure that financial 
crime detection technology is effectively exported, and not 
exported in the literal sense, but that it is used by our 
allies and by those with a common interest, which, at the end 
of the day, is maintaining U.S. leadership in this space by 
maintaining the leadership that we have as the tip of the spear 
when it comes to financial crime intelligence.
    Mr. Rose. Thank you. Ms. Khodarkovsky, would you like to 
expand on that or give us your view?
    Ms. Khodarkovsky. Yes, thank you for the question. I think 
it is important to look inward before we look to support our 
foreign partners. In the U.S., in my experience both at the 
Department of Justice and in the industry, there is a lot of 
work being done to identify bad actors who are using loopholes 
and arbitrage of foreign jurisdiction, but it is not just 
limited to the digital asset space.
    So when we look to help our foreign partners close 
loopholes to stop illicit finance, we should do that in a way 
that is not just focused on cryptocurrency but on hawalas or 
banking systems or sectors like gold and other commodities 
around the world that Russia or China are exploiting because 
ultimately, we live in a global society where movement of 
funds, even outside of the U.S., could have a detrimental 
impact on U.S. national security and business interests.
    Mr. Rose. Thank you. Mr. Hughes, we are seeing certain 
rules and regulations implemented abroad related to market 
structure as well as to requirements to prevent money 
laundering and terrorist financing. Do you believe that it is 
necessary for the U.S. to copy other countries' regulatory 
regimes in order to effectively combat illicit finance in 
crypto?
    Mr. Hughes. Thank you for the question. I would not say it 
is necessary to copy. I think we can, to the extent someone is 
ahead of us, gain a little inspiration about what they are 
doing. I particularly think of Europe in this regard. With the 
market in crypto assets regulation, they have put the first 
thing first, which is regulating centralized entities that 
perform traditional finance-like functions, like actually 
serving as intermediaries for digital assets. Then, they have 
really focused on those entities on a whole range of issues, 
investor protection issues, but in addition to that, money 
laundering issues as well.
    The issues with how you regulate software, the DeFi 
question, they have put off to a second round of policymaking, 
which they are just now starting, and they are starting in 
earnest. Some initial proposals and conclusions in that regard 
are not going to be due out of the EU commission until the end 
of 2024. I think there is plenty of time and opportunity now 
for us to start engaging in these conversations, so we can look 
to that model to see how to structure our debate.
    Mr. Rose. As my time runs out, maybe for the record, you 
could share with us other views of what we can learn from the 
efforts of other countries that seem to be making more progress 
in bringing digital assets inside the regulatory perimeter. If 
you could answer that in writing for the record, I would 
appreciate it.
    My time has expired, and I yield back.
    Chairman Hill. The gentleman yields back. Mr. Casten of 
Illinois is recognized for 5 minutes.
    Mr. Casten. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Levin, in your 
written testimony, you describe the inherent ineffectiveness of 
using crypto for terrorism finance because of the blockchain. 
You are nodding your head. I want to make sure I am not 
misquoting you.
    I read that was because a 2020 report from the Trump 
Administration DOJ said that criminals use cryptocurrency to 
facilitate crimes and avoid detection in ways that would be 
more difficult with real money. It also said that criminals use 
cryptocurrency in large amounts transferred across 
international borders as a new means to fund criminal conduct, 
from child exploitation to terrorist fundraising.
    A 2021 GAO report stated that virtual currencies have been 
central to the rise of drug sales in the U.S., especially 
fentanyl and synthetic opioids.
    In 2022, the Senate Homeland Security Committee said that 
crypto is almost exclusively the required method of payment for 
ransomware attacks, and in May of 2023, a senior intelligence 
official said that half of North Korea's nuclear missile 
program has been funded by cybercrime and cryptocurrency and 
those are legit national security experts.
    Do you stand by your statement that cryptocurrency is 
inherently ineffective for terrorism finance? Just a yes or a 
no?
    Mr. Levin. Cryptocurrency has been ineffective for Hamas 
crowdfunding.
    Mr. Casten. Okay. I am going to come back to that in a 
little bit, but I will take your limitation.
    My second question for you, Mr. Levin is, in February, 
Chainalysis estimated that there were $21 billion of illicit 
transactions, but noted that depends solely on on-chain 
intelligence. Does Chainalysis have any tools to quantify 
illicit activity that happens off-chain?
    Mr. Levin. No. We focus on, on-chain activity.
    Mr. Casten. Thank you for that, because in a Wall Street 
Journal report from October 27th, blockchain analysis shows 
that wallets seized by the Israeli government for being 
connected to Hamas, as you just noted, received some $41 
million in cryptocurrency between 2020 and 2023, according to 
Israeli blockchain firm BitOK. More than 99 percent of that 
came in Tether. That would be an off-chain transaction.
    Mr. Levin. No. Tether transactions would be on-chain.
    Mr. Casten. Ms. Jimenez, would you like to comment on that?
    Ms. Jimenez. It depends on the type of transaction, whether 
it happened within an exchange or not. I am not familiar with 
that exact back pattern, but many terror finance fundings 
happen within exchanges. I do not know the details of that 
exact example, but both have happened on-chain, terror 
financing and terror financing within exchanges.
    Mr. Casten. Okay. Does anybody know how much Tether is in 
circulation?
    Mr. Levin. Approximately $86 billion.
    Mr. Casten. How do you know that number? Tether does not 
report it.
    Mr. Levin. Yes, they do. You can look on the blockchain of 
every Tether that has ever been issued. I am happy to provide a 
briefing and show you the amount.
    Mr. Casten. Okay. We will follow up on that.
    In October, as we have mentioned, The Wall Street Journal 
reported that Hamas received $41 million in crypto. There was 
another $93 million, but I want to just focus on the $41 
million that Hamas received.
    On November 12th, The Wall Street Journal followed up with 
a second report. They said that a significant portion of the 
funds received by Gazan exchanges were for Hamas. Since 2020, 
crypto has been an essential part of Hamas's operational 
activity. There are a lot more quotes. I would encourage 
everybody to read it but they note at the end that to obscure 
the money trail, these exchanges changed the wallet addresses 
they used each day and sent funds through mixers.
    Ms. Jimenez, from your research, can you explain to the 
committee how terrorist organizations use cryptocurrency mixers 
and other anonymizing technologies for illicit financial 
activities?
    Ms. Jimenez. Yes, thank you. As we discussed, there is some 
insight via blockchain analytics for that portion. So, methods 
that they try to use to hide their illicit activity would be--
there are actually some blockchains that have less 
transparency. There are mixers that pool together transactions 
from many different parties and then spit them out in different 
amounts, so you may not be able to tell which funds went into 
receiving wallets on the other end but there are many different 
methods they can use, and a very easy one is just to go off-
chain entirely.
    I want to push back on the myth that all crypto 
transactions are reported on the blockchain. That is just not 
true. There is different research I can cite, but the number I 
said in my written testimony was, I believe, about only 10 
percent is on the blockchain. There is all this talk about 
blockchain analytics, but it is very limited. It is helpful, 
and I applaud the effort, and it has successes, but it does not 
give a full picture of what is happening in the cryptocurrency 
crime space.
    Mr. Casten. I would echo that point, and I want to just say 
I think there are a lot of interesting things being shared in 
this conversation about why the blockchain is traceable, and we 
can talk about how it gets decrypted. To your point, that is 
sort of like saying you cannot get fat from eating because 
nonfat foods exist. There is a rich conversation that goes way 
beyond the blockchain, and if I am a bad guy, it is easy to get 
on and off.
    I yield back.
    Chairman Hill. I thank the gentleman. Mr. Nickel is now 
recognized for 5 minutes.
    Mr. Nickel. Thank you, Chairman Hill, and Ranking Member 
Lynch.
    On October 7th, Iranian-backed Hamas terrorists killed more 
Jews on one day than any single day since the Holocaust. This 
atrocity is a tragic testament to the relentless threats Israel 
and its people endure. As a nation, we must stand firmly with 
Israel, our unwavering ally, in these incredibly difficult 
times, and we must support Israel's right to defend itself 
against such terror and work diligently to dismantle the 
financial arteries that enable and embolden terrorist 
organizations like Hamas. Defeating Hamas is also vital for the 
safety and well-being of the Palestinian citizens and the 
civilians in Palestine
    The actions of Hamas call for a decisive response, and I am 
glad our committee successfully marked up bipartisan bills 
yesterday to address Iran's financing of terrorist acts against 
Israel.
    According to Treasury's National Terrorist Financing Risk 
Assessment (NTFRA), the vast majority of terrorist funds still 
move through banks and money transmitters or are in cash. When 
they do use digital assets, Hamas and other terrorist groups 
disproportionately rely on unregulated, offshore digital assets 
like Tether and Binance that have next to no compliance 
controls.
    It does not seem appropriate to me that these unregulated 
bad actors can provide U.S. dollars to a terrorist 
organization.
    Mr. Levin, how can the U.S. ensure that overseas actors 
effectively enforce its regulations, and how can Congress 
bolster the jurisdiction of U.S. enforcement agencies, allowing 
them to extend their reach internationally?
    Mr. Levin. Thank you so much, Congressman, for the 
question. The examples that you cite are relevant for the 
regulatory regime that we put in place, but just to address the 
quick tactical disruption efforts that are ongoing, actually, 
Binance and Tether have both taken action under the direction 
of the Department of Justice to freeze funds that are 
associated with Hamas terrorist financing campaigns and the 
affiliates and network of facilitators on which Hamas has 
relied.
    So, we need to continue to foster international 
collaboration on a tactical, operational level to make sure 
that we can freeze and seize assets. Those relationships could 
be strengthened a lot by a better regulatory regime 
domestically that would allow, for example, stablecoin issuers 
to be able to have Federal oversight at a regulator in the 
United States, and there would be a better regime of how you 
can actually foster this type of collaboration between public 
and private that is necessary for that disruption.
    That is really where we need to focus, on building 
international cooperation on these exchanges that are 
registered in foreign jurisdictions, and also making sure that 
we strengthen our domestic industry so that, for example, 
stablecoins can be issued and administered in this country.
    Mr. Nickel. My next question is to you, Mr. Levin, again. 
Do you agree that the bipartisan market structure and 
stablecoin legislation that passed in this committee in a 
bipartisan way would limit the harm from companies like Tether 
and Binance by regulating digital assets and bringing companies 
back to the United States?
    Mr. Levin. I do believe that market structure legislation 
is essential in creating an environment where regulated 
entities can operate here, and I think that it is important 
that stablecoin bills are passed so that we can have Federal 
prudential supervision of them in this country, and I think it 
would help, yes, in preventing further harm to the industry.
    Mr. Nickel. Thank you. My next question is for you, Ms. 
Khodarkovsky. U.S. financial services company, Cantor 
Fitzgerald, reportedly manages Tether's $72-billion portfolio 
of Treasury bonds, effectively giving them access to U.S. 
dollars. Is this really appropriate, and what should Congress 
do about it?
    Ms. Khodarkovsky. I think we need to appreciate the 
regulatory framework that we have in the U.S., which ensures 
that U.S.-based stablecoin issuers are already required under 
our current anti-money laundering framework to conduct 
compliance and have proactively and quickly been able to freeze 
and blacklist accounts that OFAC has sanctioned.
    As it relates to intermediaries or those who support 
companies, they have to do their own due diligence and 
understand the risks that they are taking on if they are 
funding or supporting companies that may be offshore, that are 
engaging or facilitating other criminal activity. That is 
something that, at the Department of Justice, in the money 
laundering section, we looked at gatekeepers and third-party 
facilitators who knowingly benefitted by helping bad actors 
commit their crimes.
    Mr. Nickel. My time has expired, but I would love to follow 
up with you on what Congress should be doing here. Thank you.
    Chairman Hill. Thank you, Mr. Nickel. Just as an 
announcement, we are going to complete our first round of 
questioning with Mr. Timmons of South Carolina, and then 
Members will be offered a second round of questioning at 2 
minutes each.
    Mr. Timmons is recognized for 5 minutes.
    Mr. Timmons. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Levin, an article 
in the Department of Justice's Journal of Federal Law and 
Practice states that despite its purported anonymity, 
cryptocurrency equips law enforcement with an exceptional 
tracing tool, the blockchain. In the same article, the authors 
describe the highly-valuable dataset that comes from the 
blockchain. Would you describe what information is available to 
law enforcement and how this data can be leveraged to identify 
criminals using digital assets and halt their activity?
    Mr. Levin. Thank you, Congressman, for the question. Yes, 
the blockchain essentially provides a record that is immutable 
and permanent of every transaction that is recorded on that 
ledger. What then is necessary is that you need to link those 
transactions to the entities that have put them there, and 
determine whether those are illicit transactions or whether 
those are transactions that are going through one of the on-
ramps or off-ramps.
    The tool that is provided to the government from a company 
like Chainalysis is that we provide that map so that a law 
enforcement agent can take a complaint that involves a ransom 
payment or a terrorist financing payment or a campaign and move 
that to the full network of transactions that resulted in those 
funding transactions. So you could look at what exchanges were 
used in funding and financing those and then due legal process 
can be served to those exchanges to get records to identify the 
individual people involved.
    You can also find what common victims there may have been 
to any of those crimes, and also what is the full network and 
supply chain that enables those types of crimes to happen.
    Mr. Timmons. Thank you for that. Can you provide some 
examples of where the blockchain has helped law enforcement 
combat criminal activity?
    Mr. Levin. Yes, Congressman. There are a lot of different 
cases that we have been involved in over the last 9 years. I 
would say that we have been involved in cases that involve 
child abuse material, like Welcome to Video, where 330 people 
were arrested who were facilitating the distribution of child 
abuse material, and the administrator was arrested in South 
Korea. It was really a global effort across 30 countries to 
disrupt the full network.
    We have also been involved in many of the terrorist 
financing seizures and disruptions that we have spoken about 
today.
    Mr. Timmons. Would you say Colonial Pipeline and 
recuperating a substantial portion of the ransom would be one 
of the bigger successes?
    Mr. Levin. That would be one of the bigger successes in 
ransomware, as well as the network affiliate that was actually 
arrested, where $30 million was seized from that as well.
    Mr. Timmons. Okay. Thank you for that.
    Mr. Lisa, we have seen sanctions and enforcement actions 
taken on certain mixers by the Treasury Department. To the best 
of your knowledge, why did Treasury and other international law 
enforcement partners seek a more targeted approach to 
sanctioning mixers?
    Mr. Lisa. First, thank you for the question, and just to 
make sure I understand it, is it a more-targeted approach to 
sanctioning specific mixers or mixers, generally?
    Mr. Timmons. I would say mixers, generally.
    Mr. Lisa. Yes. Treasury has, I think, so far used two tools 
at its disposal regarding mixers. One is the sanctions 
authority, but also Section 311 authority, at least according 
to the most-recent Notice of Proposed Rulemaking (NPRM) from 
FinCEN on that.
    If there is a broad approach to it, as, for instance, in 
the most recent Section 311 proposal, the first question is 
whether or not there is actually sufficient predication for 
that--in other words, is every mixer bad, or can we use just 
examples of specific ones? The other question around that, I 
think, is if there are good uses versus bad uses of mixers, for 
instance, as my colleague, Ms. Khodarkovsky, had alluded to, 
for people to use mixers in furtherance of personal privacy as 
opposed to illicit activity. That is the delicate balance.
    If there is a broad-based approach, then effectively there 
is a risk of doing two things: first, you are actually throwing 
out a lot of good activity; and second, you could be drifting 
into an area of effectively regulating software, which is a 
tough road to climb back from.
    Mr. Timmons. Sure. Have these efforts been effective, in 
your view, as far as the sanctions?
    Mr. Lisa. Thank you for that question. I think there has 
been limited evidence to show its efficacy. The one risk of it, 
which could damage not just efficacy overall but efficacy in 
terms of U.S. leadership in this space, is if we, again, do go 
down a road of doing things like regulating software or not 
being cognizant of actually doing what the U.S. has always been 
famous for doing. It is one of the reasons why it has been a 
leader in the AML space, is we, as a country, have taken a 
risk-based approach. We look at harm, and we target legislation 
and policy to address that harm. I do not think that has been 
the case so far with mixer sanctions.
    Mr. Timmons. Okay. Thank you for that. Mr. Chairman, I 
yield back.
    Chairman Hill. Thank you, Mr. Timmons. The gentleman yields 
back. Mr. Sherman of California is recognized for 5 minutes.
    Mr. Sherman. As far as I know, all of the witnesses have 
businesses here that depend on the crypto ecosphere, and if 
crypto were to cease to be a thing, you would all lose an awful 
lot of money. Am I wrong as to any of the witnesses?
    Ms. Jimenez. I do not depend on cryptocurrency. I am not 
owned by a cryptocurrency company. My clients are not 
cryptocurrency companies.
    Mr. Sherman. Ah, the one Democratic witness. I commend the 
ranking member for his selection of witnesses. Thank you.
    We are told about U.S. leadership. I want to point out that 
when it comes to human trafficking, China is better at that 
than we are. When it comes to tax evasion, the Cayman Islands 
is better. We do not need to be a leader in everything.
    I do not know which witness can answer this, but how many 
Bitcoin transactions are there in the average day?
    Mr. Levin. Thank you for the question, Congressman. I am 
not totally sure, but I would say between 10,000 and 100,000.
    Mr. Sherman. Between 10,000 and 100,000. You illustrate the 
point I am making, and that is as long as crypto is not a 
currency, as long as we are talking 10,000 transactions, even 
100,000 transactions, then we are going to be able to police it 
a lot more easily than if it ever became a currency. Does 
anybody have an estimate--credit cards, debit cards, checks--of 
how many U.S. dollar transactions there are on an average day? 
At least 1 billion. I see--I cannot see your name.
    Mr. Lisa. My last name is Lisa, sir.
    Mr. Sherman. Your last name is Lisa, and you are nodding. 
It must be a billion. Heck, maybe a billion just at McDonald's.
    Mr. Lisa. I think a billion is conservative.
    Mr. Sherman. Right. So obviously, it is a lot harder to 
find a tree in a forest of a billion trees than of 10,000 to 
100,000 trees.
    I have talked to the Israelis about this. When somebody 
tells you they are going to try to kill you, you should believe 
them. When an industry says they are going to try to displace 
the U.S. dollar as a reserve currency and a medium for 
international exchange, you should believe them. If they were 
ever successful, the power of the U.S. dollar in international 
exchanges is to the point where we tell other countries how 
much Iranian oil will let them buy, and that they do not dare 
to buy any more. Clearly, if the U.S. dollar was not as 
important--let us put it like this, the Uruguayan peso is not 
that important. If Uruguay started telling China how much oil 
they could buy from Iran, they would be laughed at.
    We are told that there are good uses for mixers, Ms. 
Jimenez. We are told it is about personal privacy. Is that 
really just a code word for tax evasion?
    Ms. Jimenez. Yes, sir. Thank you for the question. Mixers 
can be used for whatever purpose the end user wants it to be, 
whether that is tax evasion, terror finance, or to hide illicit 
proceeds. When the Treasury released their proposed rulemaking 
on considering mixers to be a primary money laundering concern, 
they do actually have studies and analysis, using blockchain 
analytics, that cited the very large percentage of funds that 
were flowing in and out related to illicit activities. There 
are some lovely stats that I do not have----
    Mr. Sherman. Most people looking at illicit activities do 
not even think of tax evasion as an illicit activity. Some 
people are thrilled whenever a billionaire is able to cheat on 
their taxes.
    What would be the legitimate use of a mixer? Can you think 
of one?
    Ms. Jimenez. My specialty is financial crime, so I would 
defer to the other panelists. If you want to know more about 
how it can be used badly, I can provide that but aside from 
what other folks on the panel have already said, I do not have 
anything to add to that.
    Mr. Sherman. I think most of the folks in the crypto world 
think tax evasion is a meritorious use of a mixer. I yield 
back.
    Chairman Hill. The gentleman yields back, and as I noted, 
we will have a second round of questions now for the Members 
who want to participate. I am going to hold the clock at 2 
minutes for that second round, and I will start out initially.
    In its 2022 National Money Laundering Risk Assessment, the 
Treasury Department explained that the greatest source of 
noncompliance as it pertains to anti-money laundering currency 
compliance is with digital asset exchanges that are offshore 
and outside of the U.S. jurisdiction.
    Mr. Lisa, can you talk about the importance of MLAT 
treaties with jurisdictions, and what other tools we should use 
in combating crime in that manner? Then, I am going to ask 
people just generally to comment on, is it not better if we 
have a functioning regulatory framework here in the United 
States that sets out all these rules and expectations in and 
around digital assets that we can hold out to our partners? Mr. 
Lisa?
    Mr. Lisa. Yes. Thank you for this question, Chairman Hill. 
In terms of existing tools that we have for international 
cooperation, I think FinCEN and Treasury and DOJ already have 
many of them. They may need to be better-resourced, but they do 
have expertise. They have public-private partnerships. They 
have use of sanctions and Section 311 authority, and they have 
legal attaches in every country where we have an embassy. So, 
they can definitely use that to build better capacity-building 
that simply is not as effective if we are only talking about 
traditional financial investigations, where we are only using 
cumbersome MLAT processes, and effectively wind up not being 
able to catch any ransomware actors.
    Chairman Hill. Okay, and does everybody agree that we need 
a regulatory framework that clearly outlines regulatory 
oversight, AML/BSA compliance for digital assets? Mr. Hughes?
    Mr. Hughes. Absolutely, yes.
    Chairman Hill. Mr. Levin?
    Mr. Levin. Yes.
    Chairman Hill. Mr. Lisa?
    Mr. Lisa. Yes, I do.
    Chairman Hill. Ms. Khodarkovsky?
    Ms. Khodarkovsky. Yes.
    Chairman Hill. Ms. Jimenez?
    Ms. Jimenez. Yes.
    Chairman Hill. Thank you so much. I yield back, and I now 
turn to the ranking member for 2 minutes of additional 
questions.
    Mr. Lynch. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. According to CoinDesk, 
off-chain transactions, which refers to transactions occurring 
on a cryptocurrency network that moves outside of the 
blockchain, are gaining--actually, the word they used was, 
``exploding,'' in popularity, especially among large 
participants.
    So, Mr. Levin, if we have a couple of actors like Iran and 
Hamas, and they trust each other, and they move value outside 
the blockchain, is that something you are going to pick up?
    Mr. Levin. Thank you for the question, Congressman. When 
you talk about off-chain transactions through trusted networks, 
that is like using any other of their money laundering----
    Mr. Lynch. Right. So, is that a yes or a no?
    Mr. Levin. We do not detect anything that is off-chain, 
but----
    Mr. Lynch. I only have a minute. I 'm sorry. I just need a 
quick answer.
    Mr. Hughes, anything on your end in terms of analytics? Are 
you going to pick up things if they are moving outside the 
blockchain?
    Mr. Hughes. If they are moving outside the blockchain they 
need a third-party intermediary, and that is where----
    Mr. Lynch. That often happens.
    Mr. Hughes. ----and I think there needs to be a global 
regulatory framework.
    Mr. Lynch. Or they can exchange private keys, right? They 
could do that?
    Mr. Hughes. You could exchange private keys----
    Mr. Lynch. Or they could have coupons where somebody can 
cash in later, right? That is another----
    Mr. Hughes. I am unaware of coupons.
    Mr. Lynch. Okay. That is a new one.
    Mr. Hughes. That is a new one.
    Mr. Lynch. Ms. Jimenez, is that a problem, moving this 
value where they are saying there are more and more large 
participants that are using off-chain transactions?
    Ms. Jimenez. Yes.
    Mr. Lynch. Okay. Is that a trend we are seeing?
    Ms. Jimenez. I like to give credit where it is due. When 
the bad actors are seeing that their activity is being traced 
on the blockchain, they have two options. They can try to 
obfuscate it on the blockchain or they can move it off and some 
are choosing to move it off, and our regulatory framework is 
still----
    Mr. Lynch. So, law enforcement would not get that rich data 
that Mr. Timmons talked about if it is off the blockchain.
    Ms. Jimenez. If it is off the blockchain and outside of the 
United States.
    Mr. Lynch. Okay. Very good. Thank you. I yield back.
    Chairman Hill. The gentleman yields back. The Chair 
recognizes the Vice Chair of the subcommittee, Mr. Davidson, 
for 2 minutes.
    Mr. Davidson. Yes, thanks. I appreciate the kind of bonus 
round here. Mr. Lynch earlier said that it is beyond arguing 
that cryptocurrency is the preferred payment system for 
criminals. That is a nice statement, but is it objectively 
true, Mr. Levin?
    Mr. Levin. Thank you for the question, Congressman. When it 
comes to the Iranian economy, the Iranian economy does not run 
on the blockchain, so that is not the preferred----
    Mr. Davidson. For Iranian criminals or any other criminals, 
the U.S. dollar is the reserve currency for a reason. Cash is 
king when it comes to illicit finance, not cryptocurrency. Is 
that beyond dispute? I think Chainalysis put out a report that 
said about 0.12 percent of all of the crypto transactions were 
illicit, and that all crypto transactions combined are a tiny 
fraction of U.S. dollar transactions.
    So, could it possibly be objectively true that the 
preferred currency for illicit activity is crypto?
    Mr. Levin. Thanks for the question, Congressman. When it 
comes to the set of transactions, we said it was 0.24 percent 
of the transactions in cryptocurrency can be linked 
specifically to illicit activity. Yes, that is a very, very 
small subset of the overall transaction volume in the 
traditional financial system.
    Mr. Davidson. Yes. I just think there are so many fallacies 
like that, and we cannot just accept them at face value.
    Ms. Jimenez, in your testimony, you used the presence of 
digital asset-related Suspicious Activity Reports (SARs) as an 
indication of an overwhelming amount of crime in the digital 
asset ecosystem. In my view, that kind of prejudges it as 
guilty until proven innocent. I think the Biden family would 
want the innocent until proven guilty, given their number of 
SARs but according to the Department of the Treasury, ``SARs 
are preliminary, an unverified tip and lead information.'' 
Given this important context, would it be fair to say that 
digital asset-related SARs actually demonstrate that U.S-based 
exchanges are trying to comply with the BSA framework?
    Ms. Jimenez. Yes. However, there are also enforcement 
actions against numerous U.S.-based [unclear] for failing to 
file SARs.
    Mr. Davidson. Thank you.
    Chairman Hill. I thank the gentleman. Mr. Sherman is 
recognized for 2 minutes.
    Mr. Sherman. Mr. Levin, you say 0.24 percent of the crypto 
transactions are illicit. Does that include tax evasion, when 
you say illicit?
    Mr. Levin. Congressman, thank you for the question. No, it 
does not include tax evasion in that number.
    Mr. Sherman. That is the big market. Cryptocurrency cannot 
possibly be worth a trillion dollars if it only becomes the 
currency of drug dealers and human traffickers. It can only 
compete with the dollar if it gets that tax evasion market. The 
IRS has testified that there is roughly $1 trillion of taxes 
not paid each year, which means you have to hide $3 trillion of 
income each year, and you have to hide $30 trillion of assets 
from the IRS for over a decade. That is the big market.
    Does anybody have an estimate of what percentage of the 
U.S. dollar transactions are illicit?
    Mr. Levin. Sorry, Congressman. The estimate for global 
transactions is that somewhere between 3 and 5 percent of 
global transactions are actually part of money laundering.
    Mr. Sherman. Wait a minute. Just the number of burgers 
purchased with a debit card or a credit card is--I do not know 
how many burgers we eat in this country, but it is a lot. When 
you say 3 to 5 percent, is that 3 to 5 percent of the 
international transactions are illicit, or are you counting in 
your denominator every time we buy a burger?
    Mr. Levin. I think it is on the sort of gross flows of 
international commerce. The U.N. has published these numbers.
    Ms. Jimenez. May I add something, sir?
    Mr. Sherman. Yes. Go ahead.
    Ms. Jimenez. The U.N. number that is frequently cited is an 
apple-and-zebra comparison, it is not even apples and oranges, 
that compares a best guess by the U.N. of the value of all 
illicit activities by the global GDP. Neither are comparative 
to the known tag attributed cryptocurrency transactions purely 
on the blockchain versus all transactions. ``All transactions'' 
is wildly inflated by wash trading, trading between related 
parties, and the vast value of transactions that are not 
attributed, for which they have not made a decision either way.
    Chairman Hill. Thank you. The gentleman's time has expired. 
Mr. Rose is recognized for 2 minutes.
    Mr. Rose. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Ms. Khodarkovsky, when 
the war between Russia and Ukraine broke out in 2022, the 
former Director for Cybersecurity and Secure Digital Innovation 
for the National Security Council at the White House explained 
that the scale that the Russian state would need to 
successfully circumvent all U.S. and partners' financial 
sanctions would almost certainly render cryptocurrency an 
ineffective primary tool for the state. Treasury Secretary 
Yellen reiterated this sentiment when she testified before the 
committee last year, explaining that, ``any large-scale 
transaction would become apparent.'' Since it would not make 
sense to use crypto for large-scale transactions, it appears 
that the bulk of Russia's illicit financing occurred through 
other channels. Do you agree with Secretary Yellen, and could 
you explain what those other channels are that Russia used and 
is using for large-scale transactions?
    Ms. Khodarkovsky. Thank you for this important question. I 
agree that the Russian Federation could not move their entire 
GDP after sanctions were issued by the U.S., the U.K., and the 
EU, which is another component of how important it is for us to 
collaborate with our foreign partners for a global approach on 
illicit activity and autocratic regimes. They could not move 
just to use cryptocurrency because Bitcoin and other digital 
assets are transparent on the blockchain.
    They are using, and have used, other ways. They have 
laundered money through shell companies, they have used art, 
they have purchased companies that are based in the U.S. and 
the West, and they have legitimized those businesses to 
obfuscate different laws, including tax here in the United 
States. They have engaged in human trafficking with the use of 
cash and shell companies and exploitation of other 
jurisdictions, including Africa, and Latin and South America, 
in a way that surpasses all of the criminal activity that they 
are engaging in using digital assets----
    Chairman Hill. The gentleman's time has expired.
    Mr. Rose. Thank you. My time has expired, but if you would 
like to expand on that in writing for the record, we would 
appreciate it. Thank you, and I yield back.
    Chairman Hill. I thank the gentleman from Tennessee. I want 
to take a moment to submit a few things for the record. First, 
a bipartisan letter sent to President Biden and Secretary 
Yellen today by Whip Emmer, Chairman McHenry, Congressman 
Torres, and myself, along with 50 other Members, to better 
understand Hamas's fundraising through digital assets; a letter 
sent by Senator Lummis and me to the Department of Justice 
about the need to go after specific bad actors within the 
industry; information from several blockchain analytics firms 
on the estimates being reported on Hamas's fundraising through 
digital assets; letters from digital asset firms and 40 
individuals within the U.S. military intelligence and national 
security backgrounds, on the importance of Congress working 
together on solutions; and finally, a waiver determination 
related to a report to Congress on the renewal of Iraq's 
sanctions waiver for electricity payments. Without objection, 
those items are added to the record.
    I want to thank our witnesses today for a great panel.
    The Chair notes that some Members may have additional 
questions for this panel, which they may wish to submit in 
writing. Without objection, the hearing record will remain open 
for 5 legislative days for Members to submit written questions 
to these witnesses and to place their responses in the record. 
Also, without objection, Members will have 5 legislative days 
to submit extraneous materials to the Chair for inclusion in 
the record.
    I ask our witnesses to please be as prompt in your 
responses as you can and I wish everybody here on the committee 
and our witnesses a very Happy Thanksgiving.
    This hearing is adjourned.

    [Whereupon, at 3:35 p.m., the hearing was adjourned.]

                            A P P E N D I X

                           November 15, 2023
                           
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