[House Hearing, 118 Congress]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]
LEGISLATION TO PROTECT AMERICAN DATA AND NATIONAL SECURITY FROM FOREIGN
ADVERSARIES
=======================================================================
HEARING
BEFORE THE
COMMITTEE ON ENERGY AND COMMERCE
HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
ONE HUNDRED EIGHTEENTH CONGRESS
SECOND SESSION
__________
MARCH 7, 2024
__________
Serial No. 118-107
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Published for the use of the Committee on Energy and Commerce
govinfo.gov/committee/house-energy
energycommerce.house.gov
__________
U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE
55-083 PDF WASHINGTON : 2024
COMMITTEE ON ENERGY AND COMMERCE
CATHY McMORRIS RODGERS, Washington
Chair
MICHAEL C. BURGESS, Texas FRANK PALLONE, Jr., New Jersey
ROBERT E. LATTA, Ohio Ranking Member
BRETT GUTHRIE, Kentucky ANNA G. ESHOO, California
H. MORGAN GRIFFITH, Virginia DIANA DeGETTE, Colorado
GUS M. BILIRAKIS, Florida JAN SCHAKOWSKY, Illinois
LARRY BUCSHON, Indiana DORIS O. MATSUI, California
RICHARD HUDSON, North Carolina KATHY CASTOR, Florida
TIM WALBERG, Michigan JOHN P. SARBANES, Maryland
EARL L. ``BUDDY'' CARTER, Georgia PAUL TONKO, New York
JEFF DUNCAN, South Carolina YVETTE D. CLARKE, New York
GARY J. PALMER, Alabama TONY CARDENAS, California
NEAL P. DUNN, Florida RAUL RUIZ, California
JOHN R. CURTIS, Utah SCOTT H. PETERS, California
DEBBBIE LESKO, Arizona DEBBIE DINGELL, Michigan
GREG PENCE, Indiana MARC A. VEASEY, Texas
DAN CRENSHAW, Texas ANN M. KUSTER, New Hampshire
JOHN JOYCE, Pennsylvania ROBIN L. KELLY, Illinois
KELLY ARMSTRONG, North Dakota, Vice NANETTE DIAZ BARRAGAN, California
Chair LISA BLUNT ROCHESTER, Delaware
RANDY K. WEBER, Sr., Texas DARREN SOTO, Florida
RICK W. ALLEN, Georgia ANGIE CRAIG, Minnesota
TROY BALDERSON, Ohio KIM SCHRIER, Washington
RUSS FULCHER, Idaho LORI TRAHAN, Massachusetts
AUGUST PFLUGER, Texas LIZZIE FLETCHER, Texas
DIANA HARSHBARGER, Tennessee
MARIANNETTE MILLER-MEEKS, Iowa
KAT CAMMACK, Florida
JAY OBERNOLTE, California
VACANCY
------
Professional Staff
NATE HODSON, Staff Director
SARAH BURKE, Deputy Staff Director
TIFFANY GUARASCIO, Minority Staff Director
C O N T E N T S
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Page
Hon. Cathy McMorris Rodgers, a Representative in Congress from
the State of Washington, opening statement..................... 2
Prepared statement........................................... 5
Hon. Frank Pallone, Jr., a Representative in Congress from the
State of New Jersey, opening statement......................... 9
Prepared statement........................................... 11
Submitted Material
Vote on a motion to recess the hearing and reconvene in executive
session........................................................ 17
H.R. 7520, the Protecting Americans' Data from Foreign
Adversaries Act of 2024........................................ 18
H.R. 7521, the Protecting Americans from Foreign Adversary
Controlled Applications Act.................................... 27
LEGISLATION TO PROTECT AMERICAN DATA AND NATIONAL SECURITY FROM FOREIGN
ADVERSARIES
----------
THURSDAY, MARCH 7, 2024
House of Representatives,
Committee on Energy and Commerce,
Washington, DC.
The committee met, pursuant to call, at 10:05 a.m., in Room
2322, Rayburn House Office Building, Hon. Cathy McMorris
Rodgers [chairwoman of the committee] presiding.
Members present: Representatives Rodgers, Burgess, Latta,
Guthrie, Griffith, Bilirakis, Bucshon, Hudson, Walberg, Carter,
Duncan, Palmer, Dunn, Lesko, Pence, Joyce, Armstrong, Weber,
Allen, Balderson, Fulcher, Pfluger, Harshbarger, Miller-Meeks,
Cammack, Obernolte, Pallone, Eshoo, DeGette, Schakowsky,
Matsui, Castor, Sarbanes, Tonko, Clarke, Cardenas, Ruiz,
Peters, Dingell, Veasey, Kuster, Kelly, Soto, Schrier, and
Fletcher.
Staff present: Sarah Burke, Deputy Staff Director; Nick
Crocker, Senior Advisor and Director of Coalitions; Sydney
Greene, Director of Operations; Slate Herman, Counsel; Jessica
Herron, Clerk; Nate Hodson, Staff Director; Tara Hupman, Chief
Counsel; Noah Jackson, Clerk; Sean Kelly, Press Secretary;
Lauren Kennedy, Clerk; Alex Khlopin, Staff Assistant; Peter
Kielty, General Counsel; Emily King, Member Services Director;
Giulia Leganski, Professional Staff Member; John Lin, Senior
Counsel; Kate O'Connor, Chief Counsel; Karli Plucker, Director
of Operations (WA-05); Carla Rafael, Senior Staff Assistant;
Hannah Anton, Minority Policy Analyst; Keegan Cardman, Minority
Staff Assistant; Jennifer Epperson, Minority Chief Counsel,
Communications and Technology; Waverly Gordon, Minority Deputy
Staff Director and General Counsel; Daniel Greene, Minority
Professional Staff Member; Tiffany Guarascio, Minority Staff
Director; Perry Hamilton, Minority Member Services and Outreach
Manager; Lisa Hone, Minority Chief Counsel, Innovation, Data,
and Commerce; Dan Miller, Minority Professional Staff Member;
Francella Ochillo, Minority IDC Fellow; Joe Orlando, Minority
Junior Professional Staff Member; Emma Roehrig, Minority Staff
Assistant; Phoebe Rouge, FTC Detailee; Michael Scurato,
Minority FCC Detailee; Andrew Souvall, Minority Director of
Communications, Outreach and Member Services; Johanna Thomas,
Minority Counsel;and C.J. Young, Minority Deputy Communications
Director.
Mrs. Rodgers. The committee will come to order.
Before I recognize myself and Ranking Member Pallone, I
would like to address the unusual circumstances of this
hearing.
First, it is the custom of the committee and required under
the House rules that a hearing will not commence earlier than 1
week after such hearing is announced.
However, pursuant to clause 2(g)(3)(B) of Rule XI of the
House Rules, a hearing may begin sooner in one of two cases.
Either (1) the chair and ranking minority member determine that
there is good cause, or (2) the committee so determines by a
majority vote the good cause exception.
In recent history, the committee has invoked the good cause
exception to hold a hearing on short notice just a few times,
when holding hearings at the start of a new Congress. In these
cases, Mr. Pallone and I had a discussion on the matter.
Colleagues, I have remained and stayed true to our
commitment, and the good cause exception has not become regular
practice during my tenure as chair, and it will not become the
practice for the duration.
Following a classified briefing last week, Mr. Pallone and
I have determined that there is a national security interest
and good cause to hold this hearing on these bills with shorter
notice so that we can maintain regular order before marking up
this important legislation later today.
Before we begin opening statements, do you have any initial
comments, Mr. Pallone?
Mr. Pallone. Well, I just want to thank you, Chair Rodgers,
for your explanation and your commitment to continue with
regular order as it pertains to the noticing of committee
meetings. So thank you.
Mrs. Rodgers. OK.
I now recognize myself for 5 minutes for an opening
statement.
Good morning, welcome to today's--oh, that's not where we
are.
OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. CATHY McMORRIS RODGERS, A
REPRESENTATIVE IN CONGRESS FROM THE STATE OF WASHINGTON
The Chinese Communist Party pose the greatest national
security threat to the United States of our time. With
applications like TikTok, these countries are able to target,
surveil, and manipulate Americans.
Protecting Americans' data and addressing the serious
national security threat posed by the CCP have been my top
priorities all Congress.
This committee and others have been working diligently, in
a bipartisan manner, to deliver solutions to address these
critical issues.
Today we take action.
One year ago this month, the CEO of TikTok testified before
this committee to answer for the threat his company poses to
America's national security. During the hearing, he was asked
several times if ByteDance uses information it collects from
TikTok users to spy on Americans. His response was, and I
quote, ``I wouldn't describe it as spying.''
TikTok has repeatedly been caught lying about its
connection to ByteDance as well as the level of access the CCP
has to our data, which they are using to weaponize our freedoms
against us.
That ends now.
TikTok's access to 170 million American users makes it a
valuable propaganda tool for the CCP to exploit and use for
nefarious purposes.
Through this access, the app is able to collect nearly
every data point imaginable--from people's location, to what
they search for on their devices, to who they are connecting
with, and other forms of sensitive information.
The app's trackers are embedded in sites across the web. So
even if someone has never been on TikTok, their personal
information is at risk of being collected and abused.
TikTok's parent company, ByteDance, is currently under
investigation by the U.S. Department of Justice for surveilling
on American journalists. And that is just one example. It gets
much worse.
While TikTok may be the most well-known application subject
to the CCP, it is certainly not the only one. Others, like
Lemon8 and CapCut, are also subject to the CCP's influence
through ByteDance.
That is why today we are discussing legislation that will
prevent apps controlled by foreign adversaries from targeting,
surveilling, and manipulating the American people.
I commend members of the Select Committee on the Chinese
Communist Party, in particular Chairman Mike Gallagher and
Ranking Member Raja Krishnamoorthi, for their partnership on
this legislation to address the immediate threat that ByteDance
ownership of TikTok poses, and I look forward to quickly
advancing this bill to the full House.
This is a targeted approach to prohibit access to an
application owned by a foreign adversary that poses a clear
threat to U.S. national security.
Additionally, we will be discussing legislation to prevent
data brokers from sharing Americans' sensitive information with
foreign adversaries and the companies they control.
We know that data brokers sell our sensitive information to
the highest bidder, and I am appreciative of Ranking Member
Pallone bringing this legislation forward so that we may
establish clear prohibitions on the sale of location and health
information to our adversaries.
This is an important step in our continued efforts to
establish comprehensive data privacy in order to effectively
crack down on abuses of our personal information.
Companies controlled by a foreign adversary, like the CCP,
will never embrace American values, virtues of our society and
culture like freedom of speech, human rights, the rule of law,
a free press, and others.
Our adversaries choose to rule through fear and control. If
given the choice, they will always choose the path for more
control, more surveillance, and more manipulation.
Apps like TikTok, Lemon8, and CapCut are spying by design.
They have to. It is required by law in China.
This foreign interference and manipulation is not welcome
here. The threats posed by TikTok are real, which is why today
we will be hearing from the national intelligence community
about the threats and how this legislation will neutralize
them.
I look forward to our discussion today, and I yield to my
colleague, Ranking Member Frank Pallone.
[The prepared statement of Mrs. Rodgers follows:]
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OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. FRANK PALLONE, Jr., A REPRESENTATIVE
IN CONGRESS FROM THE STATE OF NEW JERSEY
Mr. Pallone. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Today the committee will consider two bills, H.R. 7520 and
H.R. 7521, that are intended to protect the public from foreign
adversaries.
Big Tech has transformed the information superhighway into
a superspreader of harmful content, invasive surveillance
practices, and addictive and damaging design features.
Foreign adversaries understand this and see access to
Americans' data, communications networks, devices, and
applications as the entry points to disrupt our daily lives and
conduct espionage activities.
And we have seen too often bad actors using communication
tools to launch cyber attacks. They have pushed disinformation
and propaganda campaigns in the United States in an attempt to
undermine our democracy and gain worldwide influence and
control. And this is all a detriment of our national security
interests.
And then there are the data brokers, who collect and sell
vast amounts of Americans' most sensitive personal information
for profit.
Right now, there are no restrictions on who they can sell
this information to. It may be about members of our Nation's
military and our children, or it may be information about where
we go, how we spend our money, and the websites we visit. And
this information can be purchased by anyone, including foreign
adversary governments.
Most Americans are unaware that data brokers compile
dossiers about their interests, beliefs, actions, and
movements, and Americans are powerless to stop this invasion of
their privacy.
While the answer to this problem is comprehensive national
data privacy protections, I firmly believe that we must do what
we can now to safeguard Americans' personal data while we work
to advance privacy legislation.
So I am pleased that today we will consider H.R. 7520, the
Protecting Americans' Data from Foreign Adversaries Act, which
Chair Rodgers and I introduced this week. It will address this
national security vulnerability by preventing data brokers from
selling sensitive personal information of Americans to our
foreign adversaries.
And we will also consider H.R. 7521, the Protecting
Americans from Foreign Adversary Controlled Applications Act,
introduced this week by Representatives Krishnamoorthi and
Gallagher.
This bill sets forth a process to incentivize the divesture
of TikTok and other applications from the operation and control
of foreign adversary governments, like the People's Republic of
China and Russia.
Social media companies effectively are modern-day media
companies, and we must treat them that way. This includes
examining the foreign investments in these companies.
Now, the Communications Act requires the FCC to undertake
such an examination for our country's television and radio
broadcast licenses. Congress placed this requirement on U.S.
broadcasters to protect national security interests during
wartime to prevent the airing of foreign propaganda on our
country's broadcast stations.
There is no reason social media companies should be exempt
from this scrutiny. Given Russia, China, and others' actions on
social media platforms during our recent elections, we know
that, while the technology has evolved, the threat is very much
the same.
The combination of TikTok's Beijing Communist-based
ownership and the fact that well over 170 million Americans use
this application exacerbates its dangers to our country and our
privacy.
The laws in China allow the Chinese Communist Party to
compel companies like TikTok to share data with them whether
the companies want to or not. And this means that the CCP has
the ability, with TikTok, to compromise device security,
maliciously access Americans' data, promote pro-Communist
propaganda, and undermine American interests.
So I look forward to hearing more today from our
intelligence and national security community about how this
bill can bolster their authorities to take action where it is
needed to ensure that our modern-day media outlets are not
subject to the influence of countries that see benefit in the
weakening of our country.
I have serious national security concerns about TikTok, and
I am sympathetic to the intent of this legislation, but I want
to hear from our witnesses before making a final decision.
Now, finally, I must express my disappointment in how
rushed this process has been.
This committee has worked together on a bipartisan basis on
numerous occasions to advance legislation that furthers our
national security interests, so committee Democrats would have
appreciated more notice and time to digest the legislation
before us before it advances to a markup this afternoon.
There are very complex constitutional concerns implicated
by this bill, and I think we all would have benefited more from
a more thorough process that results from regular order.
Nevertheless, I appreciate that Chair Rodgers agreed to my
request to hold this hearing so Members can hear from experts
and review the proposals before jumping to a vote later today.
And so, with that, Madam Chair, I yield back the balance of
my time.
[The prepared statement of Mr. Pallone follows:]
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Mrs. Rodgers. Thank you, Mr. Pallone.
I now recognize myself to offer a motion pursuant to clause
2(g)(1) of Rule XI of the Rules of the House of Representatives
to recess this hearing and reconvene in executive session
because disclosure of matters to be considered would endanger
national security.
I move that the committee do now recess and reconvene in
executive session based on our determination that the
disclosure of matters that need to be considered during this
hearing would (1) endanger national security and (2) compromise
sensitive law enforcement information.
The clerk will call the roll.
So the motion is before us to recess pursuant to clause
2(g)(1) of Rule XI of the House Rules.
The clerk will call the roll.
The Clerk. Burgess.
Mr. Burgess. Burgess votes aye.
The Clerk. Burgess votes aye.
Latta.
Mr. Latta. Aye.
The Clerk. Latta votes aye.
Guthrie.
Mr. Guthrie. Aye.
The Clerk. Guthrie votes aye.
Griffith.
Mr. Griffith. Aye.
The Clerk. Griffith votes aye.
Bilirakis.
Mr. Bilirakis. Aye.
The Clerk. Bilirakis votes aye.
Bucshon.
Mr. Bucshon. Aye.
The Clerk. Bucshon votes aye.
Hudson.
Mr. Hudson. Aye.
The Clerk. Hudson votes aye.
Walberg.
Mr. Walberg. Aye.
The Clerk. Walberg votes aye.
Carter.
Mr. Carter. Aye.
The Clerk. Carter votes aye.
Duncan.
Mr. Duncan. Duncan votes aye.
The Clerk. Duncan votes aye.
Palmer.
Mr. Palmer. Aye.
The Clerk. Palmer votes aye.
Dunn.
Mr. Dunn. Aye.
The Clerk. Dunn votes aye.
Curtis.
[No response.]
The Clerk. Lesko.
Mrs. Lesko. Aye.
The Clerk. Lesko votes aye.
Pence.
Mr. Pence. Aye.
The Clerk. Pence votes aye.
Crenshaw.
[No response.]
The Clerk. Joyce.
Mr. Joyce. Aye.
The Clerk. Joyce votes aye.
Armstrong.
Mr. Armstrong. Yes.
The Clerk. Armstrong votes aye.
Weber.
Mr Weber. Aye.
The Clerk. Weber votes aye.
Allen.
Mr. Allen. Allen votes aye.
The Clerk. Allen votes aye.
Balderson.
Mr. Balderson. Aye.
The Clerk. Balderson votes aye.
Fulcher.
Mr. Fulcher. Aye.
The Clerk. Fulcher votes aye.
Pfluger.
Mr. Pfluger. Aye.
The Clerk. Pfluger votes aye.
Harshbarger.
Mrs. Harshbarger. Aye.
The Clerk. Harshbarger votes aye.
Miller-Meeks.
Mrs. Miller-Meeks. Aye.
The Clerk. Miller-Meeks votes aye.
Cammack.
Mrs. Cammack. Aye.
The Clerk. Cammack votes aye.
Obernolte.
Mr. Obernolte. Aye.
The Clerk. Obernolte votes aye.
Pallone.
Mr. Pallone. Aye.
The Clerk. Pallone votes aye.
Eshoo.
Ms. Eshoo. Aye.
The Clerk. Eshoo votes aye.
DeGette.
Ms. DeGette. Aye.
The Clerk. DeGette votes aye.
Schakowsky.
Ms. Schakowsky. Aye.
The Clerk. Schakowsky votes aye.
Matsui.
Ms. Matsui. Aye.
The Clerk. Matsui votes aye.
Castor.
Ms. Castor. Aye.
The Clerk. Castor votes aye.
Sarbanes.
Mr. Sarbanes. Aye.
The Clerk. Sarbanes votes aye.
Tonko.
Mr. Tonko. Aye.
The Clerk. Tonko votes aye.
Clarke.
[No response.]
The Clerk. Cardenas.
[No response.]
The Clerk. Ruiz.
Mr. Ruiz. Aye.
The Clerk. Ruiz votes aye.
Peters.
Mr. Peters. Aye.
The Clerk. Peters votes aye.
Dingell.
Mrs. Dingell. Aye.
The Clerk. Dingell votes aye.
Veasey.
Mr. Veasey. Aye.
The Clerk. Veasey votes aye.
Kuster.
Ms. Kuster. Aye.
The Clerk. Kuster votes aye.
Kelly.
[No response.]
The Clerk. Barragan.
[No response.]
The Clerk. Blunt Rochester.
[No response.]
The Clerk. Soto.
Mr. Soto. Aye.
The Clerk. Soto votes aye.
Craig.
[No response.]
The Clerk. Schrier.
Ms. Schrier. Aye.
The Clerk. Schrier votes aye.
Trahan.
[No response.]
The Clerk. Fletcher.
Mrs. Fletcher. Aye.
The Clerk. Fletcher votes aye.
Chair Rodgers.
Mrs. Rodgers. Aye.
The Clerk. Chair Rodgers votes aye.
Ms. Kelly. Madam Clerk, how is Ms. Kelly recorded?
The Clerk. Ms. Kelly is not recorded.
Ms. Kelly. Aye.
The Clerk. Kelly votes aye.
Mrs. Rodgers. The clerk will report the result.
The Clerk. Chair Rodgers, on that vote, we have 43 ayes and
zero noes.
Mrs. Rodgers. The motion is agreed to.
We will now recess, and we will reconvene in a classified
executive session in 2123 Rayburn. I ask the Members to move to
our secure location, check in their electronic devices. We will
reconvene in approximately 15 minutes to continue the hearing
and take the witness testimony there.
The committee stands in recess.
[Whereupon, at 10:21 a.m., the committee proceeded in
closed session.]
[Material submitted for inclusion in the record follows:]
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