[House Hearing, 118 Congress]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]



                     REPORTING FOR DUTY: EXAMINING  
                          THE IMPACTS OF THE 
                      DEPARTMENT OF THE INTERIOR'S  
                      REMOTE AND TELEWORK POLICIES 

=======================================================================

                           OVERSIGHT HEARING

                               before the

                     SUBCOMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT AND  
                             INVESTIGATIONS 

                                 of the

                     COMMITTEE ON NATURAL RESOURCES
                     U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

                    ONE HUNDRED EIGHTEENTH CONGRESS

                             SECOND SESSION
                               __________


                       Thursday, January 18, 2024
                               __________

                           Serial No. 118-90
                               __________

       Printed for the use of the Committee on Natural Resources 
       
       
       
       
              
              [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT] 


              


        Available via the World Wide Web: http://www.govinfo.gov
                                   or
          Committee address: http://naturalresources.house.gov 
                                ______

                  U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE 

54-613 PDF               WASHINGTON : 2024 













      

                     COMMITTEE ON NATURAL RESOURCES

                     BRUCE WESTERMAN, AR, Chairman
                    DOUG LAMBORN, CO, Vice Chairman
                  RAUL M. GRIJALVA, AZ, Ranking Member

Doug Lamborn, CO                     Grace F. Napolitano, CA
Robert J. Wittman, VA                Gregorio Kilili Camacho Sablan, CNMI 
Tom McClintock, CA                   Jared Huffman, CA         
Paul Gosar, AZ                       Ruben Gallego, AZ  
Garret Graves, LA                    Joe Neguse, CO   
Aumua Amata C. Radewagen, AS         Mike Levin, CA                 
Doug LaMalfa, CA                     Katie Porter, CA 
Daniel Webster, FL                   Teresa Leger Fernandez, NM    
Jenniffer Gonzalez-Colon, PR         Melanie A. Stansbury, NM                  
Russ Fulcher, ID                     Mary Sattler Peltola, AK
Pete Stauber, MN                     Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, NY 
John R. Curtis, UT                   Kevin Mullin, CA         
Tom Tiffany, WI                      Val T. Hoyle, OR  
Jerry Carl, AL                       Sydney Kamlager-Dove, CA 
Matt Rosendale, MT                   Seth Magaziner, RI
Lauren Boebert, CO                   Nydia M. Velazquez, NY    
Cliff Bentz, OR                      Ed Case, HI  
Jen Kiggans, VA                      Debbie Dingell, MI 
Jim Moylan, GU                       Susie Lee, NV
Wesley P. Hunt, TX
Mike Collins, GA
Anna Paulina Luna, FL
John Duarte, CA
Harriet M. Hageman, WY                                                   
                                                                        
                    Vivian Moeglein, Staff Director
                      Tom Connally, Chief Counsel
                 Lora Snyder, Democratic Staff Director
                   http://naturalresources.house.gov 
                   
                                 ------                                

              SUBCOMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT AND INVESTIGATIONS

                        PAUL GOSAR, AZ, Chairman
                      MIKE COLLINS, GA, Vice Chair
                MELANIE A. STANSBURY, NM, Ranking Member

Matt Rosendale, MT                   Ed Case, HI
Wesley P. Hunt, TX                   Ruben Gallego, AZ
Mike Collins, GA                     Susie Lee, NV
Anna Paulina Luna, FL                Raul M. Grijalva, AZ, ex officio
Bruce Westerman, AR, ex officio

                                 ------ 












                                 
                               CONTENTS

                              ----------                              
                                                                   Page

Hearing held on Thursday, January 18, 2024.......................     1

Statement of Members:

    Gosar, Hon. Paul, a Representative in Congress from the State 
      of Arizona.................................................     1
    Kamlager-Dove, Hon. Sydney, a Representative in Congress from 
      the State of California....................................     3

Statement of Witnesses:

    Locke, Dawn G., Director, Strategic Issues, U.S. Government 
      Accountability Office, Washington, DC......................     4
        Prepared statement of....................................     6
        Questions submitted for the record.......................    13
    Green, Mark D., Deputy Assistant Secretary, Human Capital and 
      Diversity, Chief Human Capital Officer, U.S. Department of 
      the Interior, Washington, DC...............................    14
        Prepared statement of....................................    16
        Questions submitted for the record.......................    18
                                     

 
                   OVERSIGHT HEARING ON REPORTING FOR  
                   DUTY: EXAMINING THE IMPACTS OF THE 
                   DEPARTMENT OF THE INTERIOR'S REMOTE  
                         AND TELEWORK POLICIES

                              ----------                              


                       Thursday, January 18, 2024

                     U.S. House of Representatives

              Subcommittee on Oversight and Investigations

                     Committee on Natural Resources

                             Washington, DC

                              ----------                              

    The Subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 10:17 a.m. in 
Room 1334, Longworth House Office Building, Hon. Paul Gosar 
[Chairman of the Subcommittee] presiding.
    Present: Representatives Gosar, Collins; and Stansbury.
    Also present: Representative Kamlager-Dove.
    Dr. Gosar. The Subcommittee on Oversight and Investigations 
will come to order.
    Without objection, the Chair is authorized to declare a 
recess of the Subcommittee at any time.
    The Subcommittee is meeting today to hear the testimony on 
the impacts of the Department of the Interior's remote and 
telework policies.
    The gentlewoman from California, Ms. Kamlager-Dove, asks to 
sit in and, without objection, so ordered.
    Under Committee Rule 4(f), any oral opening statements at 
hearings are limited to the Chairman and the Ranking Minority 
Member. I therefore ask unanimous consent that all other 
Members' statements be made part of the hearing record if they 
are submitted in accordance with the Committee Rule 3(o).
    Without objection, so ordered.
    I now recognize myself for my opening statement.

      STATEMENT OF THE HON. PAUL GOSAR, A REPRESENTATIVE   
            IN CONGRESS FROM THE STATE OF ARIZONA 

    Dr. Gosar. Good morning, everyone, and thank you to our 
witnesses for joining us today.
    To start out, I want to point out that both the Office of 
Personnel Management, OPM, and the Office of Management and 
Budget, OMB, declined to testify today, or even send written 
testimony, despite their deep level of involvement in crafting 
the remote and telework policies for the Federal Government and 
related data collection capabilities for each agency.
    Despite their unwillingness to generally speak to the 
telework policies of the Biden administration, I must say I am 
not surprised, as it seems to repeat an ongoing pattern of the 
Biden administration witnesses unwilling to participate in 
congressional hearings.
    With that said, I am excited for the witnesses we do have 
today. We will examine the Department of the Interior's 
telework and remote work policies and their effect on the 
delivery of services to Americans.
    And to be clear, I recognize that telework and remote work 
can be useful in limited and well-defined circumstances. 
However, DOI has abused their excessive telework and remote 
work policies for employees at a time when even President Joe 
Biden is calling for a return to the office.
    The COVID-19 pandemic is long over, and the effects of the 
pandemic subsided years ago. As a result, last April, the Biden 
administration made the long-overdue decision to sign my bill 
into law, H.J. Resolution 7, terminating the COVID National 
Emergency Act declaration. Shortly thereafter, OPM announced 
the removal of the COVID-19 nationwide operating status for 
Federal agencies.
    Then, in August, White House Chief of Staff Zients sent an 
e-mail around to the cabinet member officials urging Federal 
agencies to return to in-person work in order to ``deliver 
better results for the American people.'' Clearly, even the 
White House is concerned about the excessive current levels of 
telework and remote work leading to a lack of productivity 
among Federal agencies, and the inability of agencies like DOI 
to meet their mission and provide core services to Americans. 
However, despite the direction to return to in-person work, DOI 
has only made minimal changes to their telework policy.
    The reality remains that DOI allows their telework-eligible 
employees to only report to the office twice every 2 weeks. DOI 
has so far been unable to produce any meaningful data for 
tracking their telework and remote work rates among employees, 
so it is unclear how much progress the Department of the 
Interior has made towards returning to in-person work.
    Here we are in 2024, and DOI remains mired in irrelevant 
and ineffective COVID-19 telework policies. The Department of 
the Interior's agencies are less productive and continue to 
fall behind on outstanding work affecting the delivery of 
services to all Americans. For example, last fall GAO released 
two reports detailing the numerous delays and deficiencies at 
the Bureau of Indian Affairs, including their ongoing struggles 
to process applications on time for providing real estate 
services to the tribes and tribal citizens, and to close out 
agreements issued under the Indian Self-Determination and 
Education Assistance Act. The reports also identified serious 
health and safety issues at Indian schools and detention 
facilities, and glaring deficiencies with national data 
regarding missing Indigenous women.
    Additionally, our national parks are in a state of 
disrepair. Critical deferred maintenance projects are dragging 
our parks down, as the National Park Service has yet to make 
any significant progress on their massive backlog of properties 
and projects, even those that address immediate danger to the 
life, health, and property, or the infrastructure.
    GAO also identified that the National Park Service is 
currently ``unable to effectively identify and manage its 
deferred maintenance due to inaccurate and unreliable data.''
    Now, I expect my friends on the other side of the aisle to 
argue once again that if only Congress provided more funding, 
DOI could solve its many problems. However, I urge my 
colleagues to break free from this DC swamp mired virus so we 
can address the larger problems within our Federal agencies. I 
disagree. After years of additional funding, literally, it 
seems like funding has grown on trees around here, nothing has 
changed. In all honesty, things have gotten worse.
    Sometimes money isn't the issue. Perhaps it is really poor 
management. And that often starts at the top, with bad 
policies. As a result, it is the responsibility of the Interior 
agencies to find ways to become more productive and efficient 
in the resources management already at their disposal. It is 
time for the DOI to return to more appropriate pre-pandemic 
levels of telework and remote work so that staff will establish 
a stronger workplace culture for working in person.
    House Republicans have put forth a solution to the in-
person absenteeism of Federal employees. The Show Up Act, which 
would return Federal agencies to pre-pandemic levels of 
telework and require Federal agencies to submit studies to 
Congress detailing how increased telework levels during the 
pandemic impacted their missions. I urge the Senate to take up 
this legislation so we can get back to business here in DC.
    Thank you to our witnesses for being here today.
    I now recognize the Ranking Member, Ms. Kamlager-Dove.

STATEMENT OF THE HON. SYDNEY KAMLAGER-DOVE, A REPRESENTATIVE IN 
             CONGRESS FROM THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA

    Ms. Kamlager-Dove. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
    Let's be clear. Telework and remote work works. Workers 
want it because it makes them more productive and reduces 
stress by avoiding commutes. It has been life-changing for 
parents, military spouses, people with disabilities, and others 
who have access to more job opportunities and better work-life 
balance. Employers want it because it helps attract the best 
talent. New mothers want it because it helps them manage 
postpartum depression, motherhood, and life, and getting to 
Congress.
    My colleagues have cherry-picked the evidence to support 
their claim that we need to return to pre-pandemic telework 
postures. But most of the research shows that telework 
flexibility is a net positive for employers and employees 
alike. That is probably why a 2023 survey of House employees 
shows Republicans use it for their own staff.
    COVID opened our eyes to the advantages of telework. We 
can't and shouldn't ignore those lessons. And it is not so much 
about government agencies being unproductive; it is about being 
under-resourced but also overwhelmed by Republican hearing 
committee gotcha agendas that refocus their energies on showing 
up and performing here, rather than doing the work for the 
American people.
    So, let's continue to put this into perspective. We know 
now that 2023 was the hottest year on record by a wide margin, 
and the rate of warming over the past century has no precedent. 
We also had record-breaking temperatures in our oceans, with 
marine heatwaves occurring all over the globe. Concentrations 
of carbon dioxide and methane, two major greenhouse gases, also 
hit new highs, and the consequences are all around us: extreme 
weather, floods, droughts, wildfires, new disease outbreaks. It 
is getting worse, and addressing it will require resources, 
coordination, and commitment on an unprecedented scale.
    Seventy-two percent of the American people know that 
climate change is happening every day, not four times a year. 
But what are we here to do today? We are micromanaging where 
people's duty stations are and how often they have to commute.
    Luckily, Democrats and the Biden administration are pulling 
our weight. Under Democratic leadership we passed the Inflation 
Reduction Act and the Bipartisan Infrastructure Law, which had 
historic investments for addressing the climate crisis. Now, 
the Department of the Interior is working diligently and 
effectively to implement them both.
    In my home state of California, Interior recently awarded 
about $295 million to protect the Colorado River Basin, 
enabling us to conserve up to 643,000 acre-feet of water 
through next year to better protect constituents against the 
impacts of historic droughts and the climate crisis. That kind 
of commitment is what it will take, and this type of action is 
what my colleagues on the other side oppose. The Biden-Harris 
administration is getting the work done remotely, hybrid, and 
in person.
    Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you to the witnesses for 
being here.
    I yield back.
    Dr. Gosar. I thank the gentlelady from California. I am now 
going to introduce our witnesses.
    First, we have Ms. Dawn Locke, Director of Strategic 
Issues, U.S. Government Accountability Office, and Mr. Mark 
Green, Deputy Assistant Secretary for Human Capital and 
Diversity and the Chief Human Capital Officer, U.S. Department 
of the Interior.
    Let me remind you that our lights are very key here. We 
have 5 minutes for the statement. The light will start off as 
green. When you start to see the yellow, that means start 
summing it up, we just have a minute left. And when you see 
red, wrap it up.
    To begin your testimony, please push the ``on'' button to 
make sure that the microphone is on so everybody can hear you.
    We will start with you, Ms. Dawn Locke.

 STATEMENT OF DAWN G. LOCKE, DIRECTOR, STRATEGIC ISSUES, U.S. 
        GOVERNMENT ACCOUNTABILITY OFFICE, WASHINGTON, DC

    Ms. Locke. Thank you, Chairman Gosar and members of the 
Subcommittee.
    I am pleased to be here today to discuss telework and the 
Department of the Interior.
    GAO's work highlights some of the benefits and challenges 
of telework, as well as key practices for successful telework 
programs. As telework continues to evolve, it is important to 
have a clear understanding of how telework can help or hinder 
mission performance so agencies can make necessary adjustments.
    To start with benefits, they include a reduced need for 
office space, which can result in cost savings. Telework can 
also help agencies' organizational health, such as employee 
engagement, or resiliency to ensure missions continue during 
periods of disruption like what we have seen during this week's 
snowstorm.
    In addition, human capital officers have reported that 
telework can address skills gaps similar to those faced by the 
Interior because, if used effectively, telework can help 
recruit and retain the best possible workforce. This issue 
related to human capital management has remained on GAO's high 
risk list since 2001 because these skills gaps undermine 
agencies' abilities to meet their missions. Again, effective 
telework implementation can help agencies address these gaps.
    While there are benefits to telework, it is important that 
we mitigate the challenges to fully realize these benefits. 
Challenges we see thus far include managing Federal space, 
issues with technology and data reliability. Allow me to unpack 
those a bit.
    When it comes to Federal space, agencies have long 
struggled to determine how much office space they need to 
fulfill their missions. Retaining excess space is another area 
that has been on GAO's high-risk list since 2003. And as you 
are aware, Interior struggles with these very issues. We found 
that leveraging benchmarks established by OMB could help 
Federal officials better assess workspace needs and potentially 
reduce costs.
    For telework challenges related to technology, we have 
identified equipment shortages, lack of training on the 
technology, and limited network capacity at various agencies. 
We have also found challenges with telework data, particularly 
data maintained in OPM's human resource database system. Please 
note improving the reliability of these data can better help 
agencies and all of you make informed decisions about telework.
    What I want to make very clear regarding these challenges 
is that they could be mitigated if agencies followed key 
practices that provide a roadmap for successfully implementing 
telework programs. These practices consist of steps like having 
a dedicated telework office to provide oversight, ensuring 
appropriate technology for those working from home, and having 
evaluation plans to make course corrections where needed.
    Federal telework programs faced an intense stress test 
beginning in March 2020. This experience enhanced our 
understanding of what telework can do for the Federal 
Government. When used effectively, it could be quite 
beneficial, but only if we address the challenges. That is, 
only if we implement key practices and have the data needed to 
make informed decisions to ensure this workforce flexibility is 
meeting mission and customer needs.
    Bottom line, we must continue to provide oversight of 
telework and hold agencies accountable for meeting their goals 
whether their employees are sitting in a cubicle, working in 
the field, or connecting virtually from home.
    I look forward to your questions.

    [The prepared statement of Ms. Locke follows:]
 Prepared Statement of Dawn G. Locke, Director, Strategic Issues, U.S. 
                    Government Accountability Office

    Chairman Gosar, Ranking Member Stansbury, and Members of the 
Subcommittee: I am pleased to be here today to discuss telework and the 
Department of the Interior.
    Federal agencies use telework to help accomplish their missions and 
maintain operations, especially during emergencies, such as the COVID-
19 pandemic. In March 2020, the Office of Management and Budget (OMB) 
instructed agencies to maximize the use of telework to allow federal 
employees to remain safe while working from alternative locations and 
maintaining mission critical workforce needs.
    Prior to this abrupt and unprecedented change in agencies' 
operating postures, Congress had encouraged federal agencies to expand 
participation in telework, including by passing the Telework 
Enhancement Act of 2010 (the act).\1\ The act, among other things, 
established requirements for executive agencies' telework policies and 
programs.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \1\ Pub. L. No. 111-292, 124 Stat. 3165 (2010), codified primarily 
at chapter 65 of title 5, United States Code. The act defined telework 
as a work flexibility arrangement under which an employee performs the 
duties and responsibilities of such employee's position, and other 
authorized activities, from an approved worksite other than the 
location from which the employee would otherwise work. Prior to this 
act, the most significant congressional action related to telework was 
included in a fiscal year 2001 appropriations provision. This provision 
required agencies to establish policies under which eligible employees 
could participate in telework to the maximum extent possible without 
diminished employee performance. The Office of Personnel Management was 
tasked with ensuring application of this requirement to an increasing 
percentage of the federal workforce over time. Department of 
Transportation and Related Agencies Appropriations, 2001, Pub. L. No. 
106-346, app., tit. III, Sec. 359, 114 Stat. 1356, 1356A-36 (2000).
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    Agencies have continued to adapt their operating postures since the 
onset of the pandemic. These adaptations vary widely in response to the 
multitude of federal agency mission areas, including Interior's 
management of America's natural and cultural resources. Federal 
employees' job functions also vary widely and can include common core 
office functions such as budget, human capital, and information 
technology; and, for Interior, the numerous other functions specific to 
its 11 bureaus.
    Interior's personnel must sometimes be present on-site to perform 
their work. For example, the visitor experience at national parks is 
shaped, in part, by direct visitor services activities such as ranger 
interpretive programs, guided tours, and educational programs at 
visitor centers. National Park Service staff also perform basic 
custodial duties and provide law enforcement operations.
    In August 2023, the Interior Secretary's Tribal Advisory Committee 
reported that Interior needs to reopen Bureau of Indian Affairs (BIA) 
Regional Offices for in-person services because Tribes and their 
citizens are not getting proper services from BIA teleworkers.\2\ The 
report stated that in-person access to officials to ask questions is 
particularly important for elderly members and those without Internet 
or reliable Internet.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \2\ U.S. Department of the Interior Secretary's Tribal Advisory 
Committee, Policy Recommendations (Washington, D.C. Aug. 2023).
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    In April 2023, OMB instructed federal agencies, including Interior, 
to increase meaningful in-person work--particularly at agency 
headquarters--while still using flexible operational policies such as 
telework to enhance employee recruitment and retention.\3\
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    \3\ Office of Management and Budget, Measuring, Monitoring, and 
Improving Organizational Health and Organizational Performance in the 
Context of Evolving Agency Work Environments, OMB M-23-15 (Washington, 
D.C.: Apr. 13, 2023).
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    Interior, similar to other federal agencies, will continue to face 
challenges in capitalizing on the lessons learned during the pandemic 
and finding the right balance of telework, remote work, and in-person 
work to accomplish its mission. As agencies consider their future of 
work in a rapidly changing environment, it is important that they 
follow key practices for implementing an effective telework program.
    My statement discusses several of our previously issued reports 
that have highlighted (1) the potential benefits of telework, (2) the 
challenges of telework, and (3) leading telework practices agencies 
should follow as they continue to adapt their operating postures. In 
developing this testimony, we reviewed our previously issued reports 
and testimony on our body of work on federal telework at Interior and 
other federal agencies as well as reports on and recommendations to 
Interior.\4\
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    \4\ GAO, Federal Real Property: Agencies Need New Benchmarks to 
Measure and Shed Underutilized Space, GAO-24-107006 (Washington, D.C.: 
Oct. 26, 2023); Tribal Issues: Bureau of Indian Affairs Should Take 
Additional Steps to Improve Timely Delivery of Real Estate Services, 
GAO-24-105875 (Washington D.C.: Oct. 26, 2023, reissued with revisions 
on Nov. 6, 2023); Telework: Growth Supported Economic Activity during 
the Pandemic, but Future Impacts are Uncertain, GAO-23-105999 
(Washington, D.C.: July 26, 2023); Tribal Programs: Actions Needed to 
Improve Interior's Management of Trust Services, GAO-23-105356 
(Washington, D.C.: Apr. 27, 2023); COVID-19: Federal Telework Increased 
during the Pandemic, but More Reliable Data Are Needed to Support 
Oversight, GAO-22-104282 (Washington, D.C.: Feb. 8, 2022); Bureau of 
Land Management: Better Workforce Planning and Data Would Help Mitigate 
the Effects of Recent Staff Vacancies, GAO-22-104247 (Washington, D.C.: 
Nov. 16, 2021); COVID-19: Selected Agencies Overcame Technology 
Challenges to Support Telework but Need to Fully Assess Security 
Controls, GAO-21-583 (Washington, D.C.: Sept. 30, 2021); Federal 
Telework: Key Practices That Can Help Ensure the Success of Telework 
Programs, GAO-21-238T (Washington, D.C.: Nov. 18, 2020); Federal 
Telework: Additional Controls Could Strengthen Telework Program 
Compliance and Data Reporting, GAO-17-247 (Washington, D.C.: Feb. 17, 
2017); Federal Human Resources Data, OPM Should Improve the 
Availability and Reliability of Payroll Data to Support Accountability 
and Workforce Analytics, GAO-17-127 (Washington, D.C.: Oct. 7, 2016); 
Federal Telework: Better Guidance Could Help Agencies Calculate 
Benefits and Costs, GAO-16-551 (Washington, D.C.: July 15, 2016); 
Federal Telework: Program Measurement Continues to Confront Data 
Reliability Issues, GAO-12-519 (Washington, D.C.: Apr. 19, 2012); and 
Human Capital: Further Guidance, Assistance, and Coordination Can 
Improve Federal Telework Efforts, GAO-03-679 (Washington, D.C.: July 
18, 2003).
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    We have ongoing work reviewing the implications of telework use at 
federal agencies. Specifically, we are examining how the use of 
telework has contributed to ongoing changes among selected agencies' 
customer service delivery, organizational performance, worker 
productivity and performance, and operations. This statement reflects 
some of the recent policies and guidance issued by OMB and the Office 
of Personnel Management (OPM) that we reviewed as part of that work.
    We conducted the work on which this testimony is based in 
accordance with generally accepted government auditing standards. Those 
standards require that we plan and perform the audit to obtain 
sufficient, appropriate evidence to provide a reasonable basis for our 
findings and conclusions based on audit objectives. We believe the 
evidence obtained provides a reasonable basis for our findings and 
conclusions based on our audit objectives.
Potential Benefits

    Telework offers potential benefits to federal agencies as well as 
to the federal workforce. These benefits include improving recruitment 
and retention of employees, reducing the need for costly office space, 
and creating an opportunity to better balance work and family demands. 
In addition, telework is a tool that agencies can use to help 
accomplish their missions during periods of disruption.
    Last July, we reported on the impact of telework, both as it 
pertains to the workforce and various sectors of the economy. Studies 
we reviewed found that, while telework generally had a positive impact 
on worker productivity and firm performance in certain sectors, 
methodological issues complicate efforts to estimate its long-term 
impacts.\5\
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \5\ GAO-23-105999.
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    Federal human capital officers have identified telework as a 
workforce flexibility that can help address skills gaps by helping to 
attract, recruit, and retain the best possible workforce. For agencies 
to leverage telework to recruit and retain employees to close skills 
gaps in their workforce, they must ensure their telework policies, 
procedures, and other controls are appropriately implemented. Agencies 
must also ensure that the technology needed for employees to telework 
functions as it should.
    Since 2001, we have included strategic human capital management in 
GAO's High-Risk List. This is partially because of the need to address 
current and emerging skills gaps that are undermining agencies' 
abilities to meet their missions.\6\ Last April, we reported that any 
progress to close mission-critical skills gaps will require 
demonstrated improvements in agencies' capacity to perform workforce 
planning, foster employee engagement, train staff effectively, and 
recruit and retain the appropriate number of staff with the necessary 
skills. We found that agencies face challenges in these areas of human 
capital management.\7\ Effective implementation of telework policies 
and procedures could help improve talent management shortfalls, which 
is often how agencies experience skills gaps.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \6\ GAO, High-Risk Series: An Update, GAO-01-263 (Washington, D.C.: 
January 2001).
    \7\ See GAO, High-Risk Series: Efforts Made to Achieve Progress 
Need to Be Maintained and Expanded to Fully Address All Areas, GAO-23-
106203 (Washington, D.C.: Apr. 20, 2023).
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    We have previously reported areas where Interior faces challenges 
in meeting its mission due to skills gaps. For example:

     In October 2023, we reported that the Bureau of Indian 
            Affairs (BIA) identified staff shortages as a factor 
            affecting its processing times for real estate services.\8\ 
            We recommended, among other things, that BIA develop a plan 
            to address factors affecting its processing times for 
            delivering real estate services, including staff shortages. 
            BIA agreed with these recommendations and stated it would 
            develop a plan for overseeing the entry of real estate 
            data, among other things.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \8\ GAO-24-105875.

     In April 2023, we found that the Bureau of Trust Funds 
            Administration (BTFA) within BIA lacked a strategic 
            workforce plan that would help Interior better understand 
            the resources it needs to manage trust funds, especially as 
            demand for beneficiary services continues to increase.\9\ 
            We recommended that Interior develop a strategic workforce 
            plan for carrying out trust functions and update agency 
            collaboration guidance for trust operations and services. 
            Interior generally agreed with our recommendations. As of 
            October 2023, BTFA continues to finalize a statement of 
            work to hire a contractor to assist with the development of 
            a workforce plan. BTFA anticipates awarding the contract 
            during the second quarter of fiscal year 2024 and 
            completing the strategic workforce plan during the second 
            quarter of fiscal year 2025.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \9\ GAO-23-105356.

     In November 2021, we found that the Bureau of Land 
            Management (BLM) made substantial changes to its 
            organizational structure without a strategic workforce plan 
            that addressed the two critical needs that define strategic 
            workforce planning: (1) aligning the agency's human capital 
            program with emerging mission goals, and (2) developing 
            long-term strategies for acquiring, developing, and 
            retaining staff to achieve programmatic goals.\10\ We 
            recommended that BLM (1) track data on vacancies and 
            details for all offices, and (2) develop an agency-wide 
            strategic workforce plan that aligns its human capital 
            program with emerging mission goals and includes long-term 
            staffing strategies. Interior agreed with our 
            recommendations. As of February 2023, BLM said it had hired 
            a contractor to develop a strategic workforce plan and made 
            some progress, but had not yet finalized such a plan. By 
            implementing our priority recommendation in this area, BLM 
            will better ensure it has the workforce it needs to achieve 
            its mission and goals.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \10\ GAO-22-104247.
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Challenges

    Our prior work has identified a number of challenges related to 
telework. These challenges include:

    Measuring and shedding underutilized federal space. Federal 
agencies have long struggled to determine how much office space they 
need to fulfill their missions. Retaining excess and underutilized 
space is one of the main reasons that federal real property management 
has remained on our High-Risk List since 2003. In a report we issued 
last October, we found that agency officials identified challenges to 
increasing utilization, including a lack of benchmarks for full 
utilization that accounts for increased telework.\11\
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \11\ GAO-24-107006.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Differences in agencies' measures, calculations, and benchmarks can 
also contribute to differences in capacity and utilization measures 
across the government. A benchmark for measuring utilization that 
accounts for higher levels of telework could help the federal 
government more consistently identify underutilized space within and 
across agencies. This information could support better alignment of the 
federal real property portfolio with future needs and cost reductions 
from releasing unneeded space. We recommended that the Director of OMB 
should ensure that the Deputy Director of OMB, as Chair of the Federal 
Real Property Council, leads the development and use of benchmarks for 
measuring building utilization that account for greater levels of 
telework. OMB agreed with our recommendation.
    In our October 2023 report, we reviewed the agencies' use of their 
headquarters buildings at 24 federal agencies--including Interior--for 
three selected weeks during January, February, and March 2023. We found 
that Interior's headquarters utilization was in the third quartile of 
the 24 agencies. The six agencies in the quartile used 23 percent of 
their headquarters buildings' capacity on average over our sample 
period (see figure 1).

     Figure 1: Estimated Weekly Averages of Utilization of Federal 
             Headquarters Buildings across a 3-Week Sample

  (One Week in Each of January, February, and March 2023), by Quartile

[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT] 


    .epsNote: Utilization is a ratio of a building's capacity and the 
extent to which an agency uses that capacity. Utilization differs from 
attendance because a building's capacity is based on the size of the 
building, not the number of people assigned to it. All assigned staff 
could go to a building, and it could still be underutilized if the 
building has more space than it needs. The quartile percentage 
represents a weekly average, but percentage ranges of space utilization 
vary by federal agency. In addition, daily in-person attendance rates 
generally varied throughout the work week. The Department of Defense 
provided us data on attendance in a government facility (Mark Center) 
located in Alexandria, Virginia, which we had identified as its 
administrative headquarters. The Office of Personnel Management 
indicated that additional non-agency staff occupy space in its 
headquarters building, and its numbers include those workspaces and 
attendance. Department of Housing and Urban Development and Small 
Business Administration officials noted that their headquarters 
buildings were undergoing renovation during the data collection period, 
contributing to a decrease in attendance. The Department of Energy 
headquarters includes the Forrestal, Germantown, and Portals locations. 
See GAO-24-107006 for information on how we calculated the extent to 
which the agencies are using the buildings.

    Reliability of telework data. In 2012, we reported that OPM had 
been concerned about the reliability of telework data it received from 
executive agencies through its annual data call over the prior 
decade.\12\ OPM also maintains data on telework use in its Enterprise 
Human Resources Integration (EHRI) system.\13\ In 2016, we found that 
several issues affected the reliability of the EHRI payroll system, 
including the telework variables within the database. We made five 
recommendations, including four to improve data reliability.\14\ In 
2019, OPM implemented one recommendation by updating its EHRI database 
payroll data standards to include data on the number and instances of 
telework use by federal employees and the number of hours of telework 
used.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \12\ GAO-12-519.
    \13\ EHRI is OPM's primary warehouse for data about federal 
employees. OPM designed EHRI to leverage its existing IT 
infrastructure, staff, and tools to integrate federal personnel, 
payroll, training, and retirement databases. EHRI was developed 
following the electronic government initiative in 2001. This initiative 
was aimed at using IT to enhance the access to and delivery of 
government information and service to citizens, business partners, and 
employees. It also was designed to improve the internal efficiency and 
effectiveness of the federal government.
    \14\ GAO-17-127. The four recommendations to improve data 
reliability were for OPM to (1) update EHRI payroll database 
documentation to be consistent with current field definitions and 
requirements, including the Guide to Human Resources Reporting and the 
Guide to Data Standards, Part B; (2) consistently monitor system-
generated error and edit check reports and ensure that timely action is 
taken to address identified issues; (3) develop a schedule for 
executing plans to integrate the payroll data into the larger suite of 
EHRI databases; and (4) evaluate existing internal control activities 
and develop new control activities for EHRI payroll data, such as 
implementing transactional edit checks that leverage the information in 
the other EHRI datasets. OPM concurred with our four recommendations 
and implemented two of them. As of January 2024, one remains open, and 
one remains open and partially addressed.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    In 2023, OPM officials told us they implemented another 
recommendation by developing a process to monitor system generated 
error reports in EHRI. However, it still needs to close two other 
recommendations to improve data reliability. Specifically, OPM needs to 
finish updating control activities to further leverage EHRI datasets 
and data quality. It also needs to develop a schedule for integrating 
payroll data into a larger suite of EHRI databases.\15\ OPM officials 
agreed that payroll data in EHRI could eventually be substituted for 
OPM's current telework data calls but to do so would first require 
implementation of the above actions.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \15\ In addition to the four recommendations to improve data 
reliability, we also recommended that OMB improve the availability of 
EHRI payroll data--for example, by preparing the data for analytics, 
making them available through online tools such as FedScope, and 
including them among the EHRI data sources on the OPM website and 
Data.gov. As of January 2024, the recommendation remains open.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Until OPM develops a plan to fully implement all our 
recommendations to improve data reliability issues with its EHRI 
payroll data, it will continue to be unable to precisely assess 
telework usage across agencies and provide a full and accurate picture 
to Congress to support oversight. In February 2022, we recommended that 
Congress consider requiring OPM to develop an implementation plan to 
improve the reliability of information in EHRI, including telework 
information.\16\ In doing so, Congress should consider providing OPM a 
deadline for completing the plan.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \16\ GAO-22-104282.

    IT. Agency officials reported a variety of IT challenges at the 
onset of the pandemic and took steps to try to mitigate these 
issues.\17\ These challenges included equipment shortages, lack of 
training, and limited network capacity. Agencies told us they needed to 
ensure that teleworkers had the right technology to perform their 
duties successfully. Other areas of importance to agencies included 
assessing organizational and teleworker technology needs, addressing 
access and security issues related to telework, and providing technical 
support when needed.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \17\ We previously reported on (1) selected agencies' initial 
experiences in providing the IT needed to support remote access for 
maximum telework, and (2) the extent to which selected agencies 
followed federal information security guidance for their IT systems 
that provide remote access. See GAO-21-583.

    Work portability and replicating on-site work process. Several 
agencies reported that some positions and procedures were not portable. 
They added that they needed additional time at the outset of the 
pandemic to revise guidance and policies to accommodate full-time 
telework for eligible employees occupying those positions. Agencies 
also experienced challenges replicating the office environment and some 
processes in a remote setting. These included challenges with hiring, 
security checks and fingerprinting new employees, mail delivery and 
processing, and accessing office supplies and equipment.
Implementation of Key Practices Can Help Ensure the Success of Federal 
        Agencies' Telework Programs

    In our prior work, we have also identified key practices for 
federal agencies to implement with their telework programs. These key 
practices can be grouped under seven categories: (1) program planning, 
(2) telework policies, (3) performance management, (4) managerial 
support, (5) training and publicizing, (6) technology, and (7) program 
evaluation.\18\ These telework key practices--several of which are 
required by statute--provide a roadmap for federal agencies to 
successfully implement their telework program.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \18\ GAO-21-238T and GAO-03-679.

    Program planning. The Telework Enhancement Act of 2010 (the act) 
required agencies to designate a telework managing officer (TMO).\19\ 
Establishing such a leadership position is consistent with the key 
practices we identified. The TMO is the primary agency official devoted 
to the development and implementation of the agency's telework program 
and facilitates its compliance with the act. Agencies may also 
designate other officials to implement the day-to-day operations of the 
telework program.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \19\ Prior to the act, some agencies designated telework 
coordinators to be responsible for overseeing the implementation of 
telework programs and reported on the status of these programs. See, 
for example, Consolidated Appropriations Act, 2004, Pub. L. No. 108-
199, div. B, tit. VI, Sec. 627, 118 Stat. 3, 99 (2004).
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Other key practices we identified related to program planning 
include establishing a cross-functional project team, establishing 
measurable telework program goals, developing an implementation plan 
for the telework program, developing a business case for implementing a 
telework program, providing funding to meet the needs of the telework 
program, and establishing a pilot program when initiating telework 
efforts.

    Telework policies. Agencies should establish telework policies and 
guidance to ensure that their workforce is telework ready.\20\ Another 
key practice to facilitate telework is to establish telework agreements 
for use between teleworkers and managers. Agencies are required to have 
such agreements. The act requires agencies to ensure an employee enters 
into a written agreement with an agency manager who outlines the 
agreed-upon specific work arrangement between the manager and the 
teleworking employee before the employee participates in telework.\21\ 
Our previous work found that telework agreements should establish job 
duties and expectations, performance standards, measurable outcomes and 
deliverables, and periodic review.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \20\ The act required agencies to establish a policy under which 
eligible employees may be authorized to telework within 180 days after 
enactment. 5 U.S.C. Sec. 6502(a)(1)(A).
    \21\ 5 U.S.C. Sec. 6502(b).
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Other key practices related to telework policies include 
establishing eligibility criteria to ensure that teleworkers are 
approved on an equitable basis using criteria such as suitability of 
tasks and employee performance; establishing policies or requirements 
to facilitate communication among teleworkers, managers, and coworkers; 
and developing guidelines on workplace health and safety issues to 
ensure that teleworkers have safe and adequate places to work offsite.

    Performance management. Our past review of telework-related 
literature found that agencies should ensure that the same performance 
standards are used to evaluate both teleworkers and nonteleworkers. In 
addition, agencies need to establish guidelines to minimize any adverse 
impacts that telework could have on nonteleworkers before employees 
begin to work at alternate worksites. Following these practices can 
help eliminate any perceived unfairness and reduce potential sources of 
tension between teleworkers and nonteleworkers.
    The act makes performance a criterion for continued program 
participation and states that telework policies should ensure that 
telework does not diminish employee performance or agency 
operations.\22\ It also requires agencies to ensure that teleworkers 
and nonteleworkers are treated the same for the purposes of performance 
appraisals, among other management activities.\23\
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \22\ 5 U.S.C. Sec. 6502(b)(1) and (3).
    \23\ 5 U.S.C. Sec. 6503(a)(3).

    Managerial support. Our previous review of telework-related 
literature found that, to establish an effective telework program, it 
is critical to obtain support from top management and address 
managerial resistance to telework. Managers may resist telework in part 
because the change requires them to shift from managing by observation 
to managing by results. Managers' acceptance of telework is highly 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
dependent on top management's commitment to those changes.

    Training and publicizing. Telework involves different ways of 
working, as well as supervising employees. A key practice we identified 
from telework-related literature is that both employees and supervisors 
should receive training to ensure a common understanding of the 
program. Telework training should include two key components: it should 
(1) address policy issues and include general information, such as 
policy updates and an orientation to telework; and (2) focus on 
telework program activities, including such topics as IT applications, 
performance management, and time management.\24\ It is also important 
to inform the workforce about the telework program.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \24\ GAO-03-679.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    The act requires agencies to provide an interactive telework 
training program to telework-eligible employees and to managers of 
teleworkers.\25\ The act further requires that employees successfully 
complete the training before entering into a telework agreement.\26\ 
OPM guidance also recommends managers complete telework training prior 
to approving telework agreements.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \25\ 5 U.S.C. Sec. 6503(a)(1).
    \26\ 5 U.S.C. Sec. 6503(a)(2).

    Technology. Our prior review of telework-related literature found 
that agencies should assess teleworker and organization technology 
needs; develop guidelines about whether the organization or employee 
will provide necessary technology, equipment, and supplies for 
telework; provide technical support for teleworkers; address access and 
security issues related to telework; and establish standards for 
equipment in the telework environment. Agencies must also have an 
appropriate IT infrastructure in place that allows large numbers of 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
employees to telework simultaneously.

    Program evaluation. Telework-related literature we previously 
reviewed recommends that agencies develop program evaluation tools and 
use them from the very inception of the program to identify any 
problems or issues with the program, and develop an action plan to 
guide any necessary changes for telework or the organization. The 
literature also emphasized the need for tracking systems that can help 
accurately ascertain the status of telework implementation in the 
agencies and, subsequently, the federal government. Such a tracking 
system should include a formal head count of regular and episodic 
teleworkers, as well as nonteleworkers.
    The act requires OPM to report annually on an assessment of the 
progress each agency has made in meeting agency participation rate 
goals, and other agency goals relating to telework, such as the impact 
of telework on energy use, performance, and productivity.\27\ To assist 
in meeting this requirement, OPM collects data on telework via an 
annual data call to all executive branch agencies.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \27\ 5 U.S.C. Sec. 6506(b)(2)(F).
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Assessments that include information on benefits, net cost savings, 
and costs can help decision makers determine the overall effects of 
their telework programs and the progress achieved.
    According to OPM, since its 2017 telework data call, agencies have 
improved in their ability to track cost savings but not all agencies 
reported information on cost savings.
    In conclusion, telework is a tool that allows agencies to provide 
employees flexibilities on where they work as they fulfill agency 
missions. The use of telework also allows the government to maintain 
operations during periods of emergency, as evidenced by large increases 
in telework during the COVID-19 pandemic. However, agencies such as 
Interior can take steps to enhance telework implementation and better 
manage available resources. For example, using benchmarks that account 
for higher levels of telework can help agency officials better manage 
federal space and reduce costs. Improving the reliability of telework 
data can help agencies make more informed management decisions about 
investing resources, planning for continuity of operations events, 
assessing compliance with the act, and managing physical space needs. 
In addition, following telework key practices--several of which are 
required by statute--provides a roadmap for federal agencies such as 
Interior to successfully implement their telework programs.
    Chairman Gosar, Ranking Member Stansbury, and Members of the 
Subcommittee, this completes my prepared statement. I would be pleased 
to respond to any questions that you may have at this time.

                                 *****

This testimony was submitted as an official GAO Report, titled 
``FEDERAL TELEWORK--Interior Can Benefit from Strategic Workforce 
Planning and Following Key Practices.'' The original document can be 
found at:

https://www.gao.gov/assets/d24107162.pdf
                                 ______
                                 
    Questions Submitted for the Record to Dawn G. Locke, Director, 
           Strategic Issues, Government Accountability Office

              Questions Submitted by Representative Gosar

    Question 1. A recent GAO report indicated that the Office of 
Personnel Management does not have sufficient data on teleworking 
across the Federal Government and that their data collection process is 
insufficient.

    1a) Can you explain the deficiencies that GAO identified, and how 
the recommendation's issued by GAO will improve OPM's data collection 
efforts?

    Answer. OPM maintains data on telework use in its Enterprise Human 
Resources Integration (EHRI) system, OPM's primary warehouse for data 
about federal employees. In October 2016, we found that while OPM 
internal controls provide some assurance of the reliability of EHRI 
payroll data, weaknesses in the design or implementation of certain 
control activities and monitoring controls for the EHRI payroll 
database increase the risk of reliability issues that may limit OPM's 
ability to fully leverage the data in support of its mission. 
Specifically, (1) weaknesses in control activities have resulted in 
limited quality checks and acceptance of unreliable data into the EHRI 
payroll database; and (2) weaknesses in monitoring activities have 
resulted in failure to address these reliability issues and increased 
risk that these issues may compound over time.

    In response, we made four recommendations to OPM to improve data 
reliability, including (1) updating EHRI payroll database documentation 
to be consistent with current field definitions and requirements, 
including the Guide to Human Resources Reporting and the Guide to Data 
Standards, Part B; (2) consistently monitoring system-generated error 
and edit check reports and ensure that timely action is taken to 
address identified issues; (3) developing a schedule for executing 
plans to integrate the payroll data into the larger suite of EHRI 
databases; and (4) evaluating existing internal control activities and 
develop new control activities for EHRI payroll data, such as 
implementing transactional edit checks that leverage the information in 
the other EHRI datasets. Taking these steps will allow OPM to correct 
internal control weaknesses such as risk of data errors, incomplete 
data fields, and ineffective monitoring of EHRI payroll data. In turn, 
OPM will be better able to leverage these data to meet its mission and 
allow others to make full use of these data for their research needs.

    In 2019, OPM implemented one recommendation by updating its EHRI 
database payroll data standards to include data on the number and 
instances of telework use by federal employees and the number of hours 
of telework used. In 2023, OPM officials told us they implemented 
another recommendation by developing a process to monitor system 
generated error reports in EHRI. However, OPM still needs to close two 
other recommendations to improve data reliability. Specifically, OPM 
needs to finish updating control activities to further leverage EHRI 
datasets and data quality. It also needs to develop a schedule for 
integrating payroll data into a larger suite of EHRI databases.

    In addition, we found there are continued inconsistencies and 
limitations of agency and government-wide telework data outside of the 
EHRI payroll system. In February 2017, we found that agencies may 
report to OPM's annual telework data call using a variety of systems 
that define and track telework measures differently. We recommended 
that OPM should strengthen controls for reviewing, validating, and 
reporting telework data in annual Status of Telework in the Federal 
Government reports. Specifically, OPM should follow up with agency 
officials on data outliers, including significant changes in year-to-
year data. OPM disagreed with our recommendation, saying its processes 
provide agencies with opportunities to correct their own data. We 
maintain that OPM should implement these actions.

    Question 2. Your testimony stated that ``until OPM develops a plan 
to fully implement all our recommendations to improve data reliability 
issues . . . it will continue to be unable to precisely assess telework 
usage across agencies and provide a full and accurate picture to 
Congress to support oversight.''

    2a) Can you elaborate on how OPM's failure to implement the GAO's 
recommendations prevents Congress and the American public from 
obtaining a more accurate picture of telework and remote work usage 
across the Federal Government, including the Department of the 
Interior?

    Answer. Without available and reliable payroll data, Congress and 
the American public must continue to rely on data that are more costly, 
imprecise, or limited in scope--missing opportunities to leverage 
centralized, standardized data that is essential for accountability and 
well-informed policy decision-making.

    2b) How do the shortcomings from OPM's data collection efforts 
impact the GAO, OIG, and Congress from conducting more effective 
oversight?

    Answer. Without reliable telework data from EHRI, GAO, OIG, and 
Congress must continue to rely on data that are more costly, imprecise, 
or limited in scope, such as data OPM collects from its annual telework 
data call. This complicates oversight efforts to ensure agencies comply 
with the Telework Enhancement Act of 2010, are following the 
Administration's guidance to increase meaningful in-person work, and 
are following key practices for telework program implementation.

    2c) Is there anything Congress should direct OPM to do regarding 
telework data collection?

    Answer. Congress should consider requiring OPM to develop an 
implementation plan to improve the reliability of information in EHRI, 
including telework information. In doing so, Congress should consider 
providing OPM a deadline for completing the plan.

                                 ______
                                 

    Dr. Gosar. I thank the gentlelady, Ms. Locke, for her 5 
minutes, and now I recognize Mr. Green for his 5 minutes.

 STATEMENT OF MARK D. GREEN, DEPUTY ASSISTANT SECRETARY, HUMAN 
   CAPITAL AND DIVERSITY, CHIEF HUMAN CAPITAL OFFICER, U.S. 
           DEPARTMENT OF THE INTERIOR, WASHINGTON, DC

    Mr. Green. Chairman Gosar, Ranking Member Kamlager-Dove, 
and members of the Subcommittee, thank you for the opportunity 
to appear before you today to discuss the Department of the 
Interior's long-standing telework and remote work policies.
    I am Mark Green, Chief Human Capital Officer at the 
Department. After my 24-year career in the United States Army, 
I worked for the U.S. Forest Service, and I have been in my 
current position for about a year.
    Since Congress enacted the Telework Enhancement Act of 
2010, the Department has supported the telework program that 
allows agency employees, with the agreement and approval of 
their supervisor, to engage in appropriate telework and remote 
work opportunities.
    Telework may be authorized only to the extent that an 
approved telework agreement does not diminish employee or 
organizational performance, and any agreement must be reviewed 
by the employee's supervisor to ensure that it does not impede 
the Department's mission.
    The Department continues to refine our telework program by 
implementing government-wide best practices, providing training 
to supervisors and employees, and improving our information 
technology infrastructure. These refinements and investments in 
our telework program enabled the Department to quickly move to 
maximum telework posture while maintaining mission-critical 
functions during the COVID-19 pandemic. These actions complied 
with the Office of Management and Budget's guidance related to 
that emergency.
    Throughout the pandemic, the Department's workforce of 
approximately 70,000 dedicated employees across 2,400 different 
geographic locations continued to deliver the Department's 
mission. Our dedicated employees remained resilient throughout 
a very difficult time, managing and maintaining over 400 
national park units, 550 national wildlife refuges, 475 
critical infrastructure dams, and 480 million acres of public 
lands for the American people. Over 5,600 wildland fire 
personnel continue to fight fires on our lands and in our 
parks. The Department's more than 7,000 law enforcement 
officers and park rangers served and protected over 500 million 
visitors to the lands and the waters under the Department's 
stewardship in 2020 and 2021. Our scientists and field 
technicians continued to gather data and work in their 
laboratories.
    Simply put, the Department's employees continued their 
important work under very challenging and unprecedented 
conditions, and for doing so we are very proud of them.
    The Department's workforce is made up of employees 
performing almost every job in the Federal Government, and we 
have a substantial number of people who work in person, on the 
ground, or at Department facilities every day. About 55 percent 
of our workforce consists of customer-facing employees who 
provide core mission delivery functions within our public 
lands, recreation areas, parks, and wildlife refuges. Because 
of the type of work they do, these employees are generally not 
eligible for regular telework. A smaller portion of our 
workforce performs mission support roles that are not public 
facing, and are often able to be performed in a telework and 
remote posture.
    Our enhanced information technology infrastructure has 
provided the capability for our mission support employees to 
effectively communicate and interact in a secure environment. 
These employees and occupations such as information technology, 
human resources, acquisitions management, financial management, 
and other similar support jobs possess highly portable skills 
that are in very high demand in both the public and private 
sectors. This group of employees is generally eligible for 
regular telework, and in some cases remote work.
    Over the past several months, the Department has been re-
evaluating our work environment posture in response to OMB Memo 
23-15 and the conclusion of the public health emergency to 
ensure our decisions regarding work environments continue to 
improve our organizational health and performance.
    In September, we implemented the requirement for 
teleworking managers and supervisors in the National Capital 
Region to begin working at least 50 percent of their time in 
the office. In mid-December, we expanded this requirement and 
notified all non-bargaining unit employees in the National 
Capital Region that they will begin reporting to the office at 
least 50 percent of their time beginning February 11. Taking 
these steps will ensure that over 70 percent of the employees 
in the National Capital Region will be working in person at 
greater rates.
    Nationally, according to our latest payroll data, 
Interior's workforce is performing work in person 65 percent of 
our work hours. The Department has also partnered with the 
General Services Administration to work to maximize efficient 
use of both Department-owned and GSA-provided spaces. In the 
past year, the Department developed a future of workspace 
strategy, and in partnership with GSA chartered multiple 
implementation teams at high-priority locations that are tasked 
in identifying space reduction targets in administrative 
facilities.
    As we can continue to work with OMB, the Office of 
Personnel Management, GSA, and other agencies we continue to 
seek opportunities to update our policies as appropriate. We 
expect the Department's future of work policies, along with our 
use of telework and remote work flexibilities, will continue to 
evolve over time in response to market trends and mission 
needs.
    Based on our experience before, during, and following the 
COVID-19 pandemic, we believe the hybrid workforce model that 
we are operating in now is one that works for the Department. 
In fact, for the Department to remain competitive for the 
talent we need in the future, especially in mission support 
occupations, we believe it is essential that we continue to 
offer workplace flexibility, such as telework and remote work. 
We recognize that our current hybrid workforce model may need 
periodic course adjustments and that Department senior leaders 
remain committed to finding effective ways to enhance our 
ability to continually monitor, measure, and evaluate agency 
performance.
    While the Department's mission always comes first, we can't 
make it happen and deliver for the American people without our 
amazing and dedicated workforce. It is because of our employees 
and the passion and commitment they show for their work every 
day that the Department was recognized in 2022 among the top 
large agencies in best places to work in the Federal 
Government.
    I look forward to discussing this important matter with 
this Subcommittee, and I am pleased to answer any questions 
that you have today.

    [The prepared statement of Mr. Green follows:]
Prepared Statement of Mark D. Green, Deputy Assistant Secretary, Human 
                         Capital and Diversity,
    and Chief Human Capital Officer, U.S. Department of the Interior

    Chairman Gosar, Ranking Member Stansbury, and members of the 
Subcommittee, thank you for the opportunity to appear before you today 
to discuss the Department of the Interior's long-standing telework and 
remote work policies. I am Mark Green, Deputy Assistant Secretary, 
Human Capital and Diversity and Chief Human Capital Officer at the 
Department. After my 24-year career at the United States Army, I worked 
for the U.S. Forest Service and have been in my current position for 
the last year.
    Since Congress enacted the Telework Enhancement Act in 2010, the 
Department has supported a telework program across our bureaus and 
offices that allows agency employees, with the agreement and approval 
of their supervisors, to engage in appropriate telework and remote work 
opportunities. Briefly, telework may be authorized only to the extent 
that an approved telework arrangement does not diminish employee or 
organizational performance, and any agreement must be reviewed by the 
employee's first-line supervisor to determine whether the proposed 
agreement is in the best interest of the Department's mission.
    The Department continues to refine this telework program by 
implementing government-wide best practices, providing training to 
supervisors and employees, and improving our information technology 
infrastructure.
    These refinements and investments in our telework programs enabled 
the Department to quickly move our workforce to a maximum telework 
posture, while maintaining mission-critical functions, to minimize 
face-to-face interactions in March 2020, at the outset of the COVID-19 
Pandemic. These actions complied with the Office of Management and 
Budget's (OMB's) guidance related to that emergency, including OMB M-
20-13, OMB M-20-15, OMB M-20-16 among others.
    Throughout the Pandemic, the Department's workforce of 
approximately 70,000 dedicated employees across 2,400 different 
geographic locations continued to deliver the Department's mission to 
protect and manage the Nation's natural resources and cultural 
heritage; provide scientific and other information about those 
resources; and honor its trust responsibilities or special commitments 
to American Indians, Alaska Natives, Native Hawaiians, and Affiliated 
Island Communities.
    The Department's dedicated employees remained resilient throughout 
a very difficult time, managing and maintaining more than 400 national 
park units, 550 national wildlife refuges, 475 critical infrastructure 
dams providing water to farmers and drought-stricken areas, and 480 
million acres of public lands for the American people. Over 5,600 
wildland fire personnel continued to fight fires on our lands and in 
our parks and the Department's more than 7,000 law enforcement officers 
and park rangers served and protected over 500 million visitors to the 
lands and waters under the Department's stewardship in 2020 and 2021. 
Scientists and field technicians also continued to gather data, and 
work in their laboratories. The Department's employees continued their 
important work under very challenging and unprecedented conditions, 
and, for doing so, we are, and should be, very proud of them.
    The Department's workforce is made up of employees performing 
almost every type of job in the Federal government, and we have a 
substantial number of people who work in-person, on the ground or at 
Department facilities, every day. About 55 percent of our workforce 
consists of customer-facing employees who provide core, mission 
delivery functions within our public lands, recreation areas, parks, 
and wildlife refuges. These employees are generally not eligible for 
regular telework and are not eligible for remote work because their 
jobs require them to be onsite for face-to-face interactions with the 
public and for work which must be performed on-site by its nature.
    A smaller portion of our workforce performs mission support roles 
that are not public facing and are often able to perform their duties 
in a telework or remote posture. These mission support employees, in 
occupations such as information technology, human resources, 
acquisitions, financial management, and other similar support jobs, 
possess highly portable skills and are in very high demand in both the 
public and private sectors. This group of employees is generally 
eligible for regular telework and in some cases remote work. The 
enhanced information technology infrastructure of the Department has 
allowed for us to effectively communicate and interact in a secure 
environment.
    Over the past several months, the Department has been re-evaluating 
our work environment posture in response to the OMB Memo 23-15 and the 
conclusion of the public health emergency to ensure that our decisions 
regarding work environments continue to improve organizational health 
and organizational performance. In September, we implemented the 
requirement for all teleworking managers and supervisors in the 
National Capital Region to work in the office at least 50% of their 
time. In mid-December, we expanded this requirement and notified all 
non-bargaining unit employees in the National Capital Region that they 
will begin reporting to the office at least 50% of their time on 
February 11, 2024, ensuring that over 70% of employees in the National 
Capital Region will be working in person at greater rates. Nationally, 
according to the latest payroll data, Interior's workforce is 
performing work in-person 65% of their regular work hours.
    As the Department looks to the future of work, the Department has 
also partnered with the General Services Administration (GSA) to work 
to maximize the efficient use of both Department-owned and GSA-provided 
spaces by various strategies. In the past year, the Department 
developed a Future of Workspace Strategy and, in partnership with GSA, 
chartered multiple implementation teams at high-priority locations that 
are tasked with identifying space reduction targets in administrative 
facilities.
    As we work with OMB, the Office of Personnel Management (OPM), GSA 
and other agencies, we continue to seek opportunities and to update our 
policies as appropriate. As noted above, the Department's current 
telework policy, Personnel Bulletin 21-07 (PB 21-07), establishes 
criteria and procedures under which eligible employees may be 
authorized to telework and emphasizes that approved telework 
arrangements cannot diminish employee or organizational performance or 
impede mission delivery, consistent with the Telework Enhancement Act 
of 2010 and OPM Guidelines. A copy of this policy is available on the 
Department's website at https://www.doi.gov/sites/doi.gov/files/elips/
documents/pb-21-07-telework-program-final-7.23. 2021_0.pdf.
    We expect that the Department's future work environment policies, 
along with our use of telework and remote work flexibilities, will 
continue to evolve over time in response to job market trends and 
mission needs. Based on our experience before, during, and following 
the COVID-19 pandemic, we believe the hybrid workforce model can be one 
that works for the Department in the appropriate cases. In fact, for 
the Department to remain competitive for the talent we need in the 
future, especially in our mission support occupations, we believe it is 
essential that we continue to offer workforce flexibilities such as 
telework and remote work.
    We recognize that our current hybrid workforce model may need 
periodic course adjustments and the Department's senior leaders remain 
committed to finding effective ways to enhance our ability to 
continually monitor, measure, and evaluate agency performance. While 
the Department's mission always comes first, we cannot make it happen 
and deliver for the American people without our amazing and dedicated 
workforce. It is because of our employees, and the passion and 
commitment they show for their work every day, that the Department was 
recognized in 2022 as among the top 10 large agencies in the Best 
Places to Work in the Federal government.
    I look forward to discussing this important matter with this 
Committee and other stakeholders in Congress and I would be pleased to 
answer any questions you may have today.

                                 ______
                                 

Questions Submitted for the Record to Mr. Mark Green, Deputy Assistant 
               Secretary for Human Capital and Diversity,
      and Chief Human Capital Officer, Department of the Interior

Mr. Green did not submit responses to the Committee by the appropriate 
deadline for inclusion in the printed record.

              Questions Submitted by Representative Gosar

    Question 1. According to reports from GAO and OPM, DOI has been 
unable to provide any meaningful data relating to their telework and 
remote work policies. Please explain why DOI could not provide data to 
GAO for their report titled, Federal Telework Increased during the 
Pandemic, but More Reliable Data Are Needed to Support Oversight.

    1a) Can you describe the progress that DOI has made since this 
report on internal data collection on telework and remote work?

    Question 2. Last August, the White House Chief of Staff sent an 
email to President Biden's cabinet officials directing agencies to 
``aggressively'' implement ``increases in the amount of in-person 
work'' and that it was a ``priority for the President'' for federal 
workers to shift towards more in-person work.

    2a) How did DOI comply with this directive from the White House? 
Specifically, can you please describe how DOI ``aggressively'' executed 
the directive from the White House to implement ``increases in the 
amount of in-person work''?

    Question 3. Your testimony discussed DOI's requirements to get DOI 
employees, namely in the North Capital Region, ``to work in the office 
at least 50% of the time'' and plans next month to expand that 
directive to ensure that over 70% of employees in the National Capital 
Region'' work in the office 50% of the time. You also said that 
``nationally, according to the latest payroll data, Interior's 
workforce is performing work in-person 65% of their regular work 
hours.''

    3a) What percentage of your time do you spend in the office at DOI 
headquarters?

         i. What about your immediate direct reports?

    3b) Why was it even necessary to tell DOI's employees that they 
need to come into the office ``at least 50% of their time?'' Is in-
person absenteeism so bad at DOI that folks who should be in the office 
don't do so even half the time?

         i. How did DOI settle on the requirement that folks need to 
come into the office ``50% of the time''? Why isn't it more?

         ii. Are there plans to increase the requirements to ensure 
that DOI's workforce is performing more work in-person compared to the 
current requirements and rates?

    3c) At this point in time, January 2024, what percentage of total 
employees at DOI's headquarters (meaning National Capital Region) work 
in the office at least 90% of the time?

    Question 4. Are there any specified ``work from the office days'' 
where everyone at DOI has to come into the office? Or can folks pick 
and choose what days in the office?

    4a) If not, wouldn't it be good for everyone to be in the office at 
the same time on the same days?

            Questions Submitted by Representative Stansbury

    Question 1. Is there any evidence that the Federal Government's 
telework and remote work policies that were in place before the SARS-
CoV-2-driven pandemic began represented the most efficient and 
effective use of telework and remote work?

    On January 10, 2024, the Committee held an oversight hearing on the 
National Park Service (NPS) deferred maintenance backlog, during which 
testimony from the Department of the Interior's Office of the Inspector 
General (OIG) and the Government Accountability Office (GAO) helped 
clarify why deferred maintenance has seemingly increased in recent 
years.

    We learned that NPS is using more thorough accounting methods and 
that many critical projects are lined up for completion in the next 
couple years thanks to historic funding in the Great American Outdoors 
Act. However, at no point were remote work or telework mentioned by the 
OIG or GAO witnesses as factors for increased deferred maintenance, 
despite claims from Republicans that it's partly to blame. Is there any 
evidence to support that claim?

                                 ______
                                 

    Dr. Gosar. Thank you, Mr. Green. I am now going to 
recognize the gentleman from Georgia for his 5 minutes of 
questions.

    Mr. Collins. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    Mr. Green, I appreciate your service. Let's see, Deputy 
Assistant Secretary for Human Capital and Diversity, Chief 
Human Capital Officer, Department of the Interior. Man, is your 
business card like the size of legal paper? That is a title. In 
your role as Deputy Assistant Secretary for Human Capital and 
Diversity, Chief Human Capital Officer, Department of the 
Interior, you don't only oversee telework, but you also oversee 
diversity, equity, and inclusion, correct?
    Mr. Green. My role is really over the telework policies and 
remote work policies, human capital-related things, but not 
necessarily the equity.
    Mr. Collins. Diversity, equity, and inclusion is included 
in that.
    Mr. Green. That is included in my title due to the fact of 
our candidate pools for hiring.
    Mr. Collins. What I want to get to real quick because 5 
minutes flies, in a memo to the Fish and Wildlife Service 
employees, Martha Williams who is the Director, wrote that 
diversity, equity, and inclusion work was her No. 1 priority. 
Mr. Green, can you please explain why the Fish and Wildlife 
Service is prioritizing DEI initiatives ahead of the Service's 
stated mission, which is to conserve, protect, enhance fish, 
wildlife, plants, and their habitats?
    Mr. Green. The Department and the Administration prioritize 
diversity, equity, inclusion, and it is an important aspect of 
all we do.
    Mr. Collins. So, that is their No. 1 priority.
    Mr. Green. But for Fish and Wildlife, I cannot answer 
specifically why she----
    Mr. Collins. Well, let's talk in general terms, then. Do 
you think the Fish and Wildlife Service should prioritize DEI 
initiatives over conserving, protecting fish, wildlife, and 
their habitats?
    Mr. Green. I think it should be a priority that supports 
that mission.
    Mr. Collins. Also in March of last year, the Fish and 
Wildlife Service, they excluded participation in DEI groups 
from their service caps, which allows about 2 hours for 
employees to use during work hours for resources and employee 
organization-type meetings. So, as a result, Fish and Wildlife 
Service employees, they can spend as much time as they want on 
DEI initiatives instead of working in their official on-duty 
duties. Can you explain why participation in DEI employee 
organizations are excluded from the service cap?
    Mr. Green. No, I cannot. I will have to take that question 
back, and we could get you an answer for that.
    Mr. Collins. How does unlimited participation in DEI groups 
serve the American taxpayer who pays Service employees to 
protect fish, wildlife, and habitats?
    Mr. Green. Our mission delivery to the American public is 
the No. 1 priority. And DEI is an Administration priority that 
fits into all that we do on that mission.
    Mr. Collins. You give them unlimited on DEI, but it is 
capped at 2 hours on what their mission is.
    Mr. Green, I am sure you would agree with me that since 
humans are part of the animal kingdom, correct, and you and the 
Fish and Wildlife Service are focused hard on DEI, so I am 
going to ask you, have you seen any evidence of lack of 
diversity, equity, and inclusion in other animals in the animal 
kingdom? Say, like maybe the rainbow trout, horny toad, the 
red-cockaded woodpecker?
    Mr. Green. I am not an expert on all of those things, so I 
wouldn't be able to answer that question.
    Mr. Collins. That is what I thought.
    Mr. Chairman, I would have asked about the common 
cockchafer, but his Department doesn't have any jurisdiction 
over them since they live in England. With that, I am going to 
yield back the balance of my time.
    Dr. Gosar. I thank the gentleman. Now, the gentlelady who 
just got here from New Mexico, Ms. Stansbury, the Ranking 
Member, is recognized.
    Ms. Stansbury. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    Well, I heard today's hearing was about telework, so I 
thought I would give it a try. Just kidding.
    [Laughter.]
    Ms. Stansbury. I appreciate the opportunity to come and 
speak to our experts and to have the Department of the Interior 
and GAO here. Thank you all for being here today.
    I think it is clear that our entire economy and workforce 
has been transformed since the pandemic. Millions of people all 
around the world have changed the ways in which they are 
working, and we actually see increased productivity and 
effectiveness in people's jobs when they have more flexibility 
around how they manage their own days.
    So, let's be clear. Telework and remote policy actually 
works, and it works well. Workers want it because it helps 
reduce stress, it helps to avoid commutes, it gives them more 
time on the job. It has been life-changing for parents, 
military spouses. Employers like to use it because it helps 
them recruit new talent, especially in the younger generations, 
as much of our Federal workforce is in the retirement phase of 
their lives. And it is clear that this has become a talking 
point here in this Congress.
    I was thinking about this as I walked over here this 
morning. I mean, this is one of literally dozens of hearings we 
have had this Congress about telework policies. And I find it 
strange that we are obsessing over this while we are on the 
brink of a government shutdown and haven't been able to fund a 
foreign aid package. I mean, we have real serious issues right 
now that our country is facing. So, to be spending this time 
doing hearings on telework policies seems a bit bizarre to me.
    We are facing real challenges in this country, and the 
Department of the Interior, of course, employs tens of 
thousands of people, and they are all over this continent. They 
are doing everything from managing fish and wildlife to our 
national parks to serving the 570-plus Tribal Nations that are 
part of the great fabric of this nation, and trying to fight 
climate change. In this last year, we know that we saw the 
hottest year ever on record. So, I think that it is clear that 
it has not impeded the ability of the Department to deliver on 
its productivity.
    I also do want to just take a moment to address the 
comments of the previous speaker in the dais here. The reason 
why we value diversity in the workforce is because our society 
is diverse. And for far too long we have had exclusionary 
policies and practices that did not allow people of color, 
women, like me, to serve in positions, and that is reflected 
across our Federal workforce. So, we are trying to make sure 
that we have a Federal workforce that is reflective of our 
society, that there is opportunity for every single person to 
participate and to serve our nation. And that is why we value 
diversity. And I think that is really reflected in not only the 
priorities of the Biden administration, but the fact that right 
now we have the very first Cabinet Secretary ever in our 
nation's history who is an Indigenous person. That is 
extraordinary. It is historic and it is important. So, I do 
want to just lift that up for a moment.
    But Ms. Locke, I know you are here to talk about your work 
and analysis looking at telework policies. And I want to ask 
actually about GAO, which, of course, is an affiliate of our 
work here. Does GAO allow its employees to work remotely?
    Ms. Locke. We can work remotely or do telework.
    Ms. Stansbury. And have you personally found and members of 
your staff found that it affects your ability to perform good 
or bad?
    Ms. Locke. We assess the suitability of each position at 
GAO to determine if those positions could telework. So, those 
that were suitable for telework, they have no impact on our 
performance. And in fact, in 2023 we exceeded our savings by 
$20 billion in a telework status.
    Ms. Stansbury. Which is another reason that both the 
private and the public sector are seeking to increase 
opportunities for telework. It is not just that flexibility for 
employees, but it saves money for employers, as well.
    And Mr. Green, you oversee the human capital enterprise for 
the 70,000-plus direct employees of the Department of the 
Interior. How have you seen telework affect the productivity of 
the Department?
    Mr. Green. We have a very unique mission set in that many 
of our employees are public-facing, so 55 percent of them are 
already working in person every day. According to our payroll 
data, 65 percent of our employees are working in person every 
day. And we measure our organizational performance by the 
measures in our strategic plan. And my understanding of that is 
that we have actually increased in many areas in performance 
with telework, and we are also seeing higher levels of 
retention of our employees and better scores on our Federal 
Employee Viewpoint Surveys around employee engagement.
    The tools that we have now, the technology, allows for 
managers and employees to stay connected and work together, so 
job satisfaction is actually even higher, according to the 
Federal Employee Viewpoint Survey.
    Ms. Stansbury. Thank you, Mr. Green. I think that is a 
really interesting point for folks who don't work in the 
Federal Government. They may not be familiar with the Federal 
Employee Viewpoint.
    I am a former Fed myself, I used to work at OMB in the 
Interior branch, actually. And one of the things that you see 
is that year to year, as these surveys are done, they are 
really a barometer of the health and well-being of our Federal 
workforce which encompasses millions of Americans, of course, 
and workplace satisfaction is not just a matter of people being 
happy in their jobs, but it is a matter of national security, 
it is a matter of the Federal Government being able to carry 
out its mission, and it is the ability to actually serve the 
public in all of the different things that the Department does.
    I want to emphasize what you just said, Mr. Green. You are 
saying that, as a result of the changes in HR policies and the 
increased flexibility, you have actually seen an improvement in 
overall workplace satisfaction and recruitment and retention?
    Mr. Green. That is correct.
    Ms. Stansbury. I don't think I have any other questions. 
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    Dr. Gosar. You are certainly welcome, thank you.
    Mr. Green, in regards to the public face of these agencies, 
and that public face being in person like at the BIA, not 
everybody can just interact with an e-mail or telework, can 
they?
    Mr. Green. Like the GAO, Ms. Locke, had stated, we go 
through an evaluation process. It is mainly mission support, 
non-public-facing folks that have jobs that don't require them 
to come into a facility to do many of the duties that they are 
assigned that can telework. Most of our employees are public-
facing. They have to come to do work on the land and engage 
with the public every day.
    Dr. Gosar. OK, so the next question is for both of you. In 
the past, we have held hearings in regards to Department of the 
Interior's security codes and their passwords. How has that 
issue been affected during this time of telework and remote 
learning?
    Ms. Locke, would you want to go first on that?
    Ms. Locke. We have not looked into their security codes, 
but I can tell you that during the peak of the pandemic, when 
we were all in telework status, there were cybersecurity issues 
that popped. And, fortunately, entities like OMB and DHS and 
NIST put out practices to help keep agencies safe. And in 
addition, the security officers were working remote so they 
could address those security threats and put out advisories 
about them.
    But I do not have an answer regarding the----
    Dr. Gosar. Well, to your point there, I think you alluded 
to the problem as being that it is much more diffuse. If people 
are reporting for duty here in Washington DC, they are more 
located in one area, making it easier for the security 
evaluations and upkeep, would it not?
    Ms. Locke. That is not my area of expertise, so I can't 
respond to that.
    Dr. Gosar. OK. Mr. Green, would you like to respond to 
that?
    Mr. Green. That is not my area of expertise, either, but I 
can tell you that there have been major strides made with our 
CIO, our Chief Information Office, with leveraging new, secure 
technology.
    To get a specific answer to a specific question, I would 
have to refer back to our experts back at the Department to get 
you an answer on that.
    Dr. Gosar. Once again to Mr. Green, if you are encouraging 
full-time use, what percentage of DOI is full-time job 
participation, in face?
    Mr. Green. All of our employees, whether they are 
teleworking or not, are working every day to deliver for the 
American people. I would say that again 55 percent of our 
workforce is public-facing, and they have to come to the land 
every day to do their work. The balance of the folks are 
allowed to telework, either at an ad hoc basis periodically, 
based on situation, or have regular schedules where they can 
telework from 1 up to 8 days per pay period of telework.
    Dr. Gosar. In your evaluation, has there been any area of 
expertise within DOI that has been shortchanged with this, or 
that doesn't like this type of application?
    Mr. Green. Looking at our individual employee performance 
management system, we are not seeing any individual employee 
performance issues.
    And then again, as we evaluate the Department on our 
performance as a whole, we look at our strategic plan and we 
are actually seeing increases there. And we are actually seeing 
better results on our Federal Employee Viewpoint Survey around 
employee engagement, how connected they feel to the mission of 
the agency, how they feel connected to each other. These tools 
are vastly different than what we have had in the past, even 5 
years ago, the tools were not available for employees to engage 
at the level that they are able to now.
    Dr. Gosar. Well, it is amazing what technology will do. I 
mean, you and I can be on different sides of the continent and 
we can definitely see each other, talk to each other, see our 
expressions, all sorts of things that we couldn't have done 
before.
    I want to come back to the Native Americans. Are there 
shortcomings in some of these aspects with Native Americans? I 
can think of a few, because if you are going out there and they 
don't have Internet, it makes it really, really tough to have 
application in that aspect. Would you agree? Could you kind of 
comment on those?
    Mr. Green. There have always been challenges where Internet 
is available. But again, as to a specific circumstance, I would 
have to know a little bit more. I could take it back and get an 
answer about that.
    But I would just say that, as a whole, even the Bureau of 
Indian Affairs, they are one of our bureaus that actually has a 
higher percentage of in-person work than many of our other 
bureaus. They are up in about the 79, 80 percent range, last I 
checked on in-person work. So, we haven't seen telework as 
being a challenge related to that, or the technology, because 
the vast majority of our work is done in person.
    Dr. Gosar. But I guess, you kind of made my point to a 
certain degree in that most of your Native Americans or your 
Indian Affairs folks are in person because I think they need a 
lot more help and kind of follow-through and guidance in 
regards to Federal registry. Right?
    Mr. Green. I think you would see that out in all rural 
areas, because we have folks in 2,400 different locations 
providing service to the American public, and I think you would 
see that same dynamic, because we don't have a large 
concentration of mission support people in those locations. 
Those are locations where those folks are delivering services 
directly, so you would see a higher percentage of in-person 
work there because their jobs just don't lend themselves to 
telework or remote work.
    Dr. Gosar. And even in Alaska, you would see a higher 
percentage of those, as well, and you would see a better 
performance, or about the same performance.
    Mr. Green. I think in most rural areas you would see that. 
I can't speak to Alaska specifically, as far as that particular 
data point. I would have to get that. But I would say I think 
that you would see that in most rural areas.
    Anywhere where you would see a headquarters kind of 
concentration, like the National Capital Region, that is where 
you are going to see a concentration of most of these mission 
support roles, and those just happen to be the ones that the 
work that they perform, they perform work here for folks all 
the way across the country, and they are able to do it because 
of the secure technology. And those are the folks that are able 
to telework. And in some cases, there are remote work 
opportunities there, as well.
    Dr. Gosar. Ms. Locke, have you seen any changes? I would 
like to get your input on those same things in regards to 
Native Americans from that standpoint.
    Ms. Locke. What I will say is I just visited the 
territories on another congressional request, and DOI was part 
of that review. And in talking with them, we did ask about 
telework. And in particular, Fish and Wildlife officials, as 
well as National Park Service officials stated that since they 
started offering telework, their pool of applicants opened, 
they had a larger geographic area to choose from and more skill 
sets to choose from.
    With that being said, they also acknowledged that while 
recruitment and retention had improved, that not every position 
was suitable for telework because they had to be in person. But 
they said even if they offered 1 day a pay period to telework, 
when those individuals who normally have to be in person just 
had to do administrative stuff behind the computer, that was 
beneficial to them.
    Dr. Gosar. Well, I find this very interesting that we 
stumbled, I mean kind of blindly in regards to the COVID 
national emergency, that we stumbled onto this, and we are 
seeing some results in regards to that. I find it very 
interesting that we have gone down that road.
    Do you have any questions? No more?
    Well, I just want to thank you, Ms. Locke and Mr. Green, 
for your indulgence today. We appreciate you. I wish that some 
of the other agencies would come forward. We would certainly 
appreciate them doing that.
    I thank the witnesses for their testimony. The members of 
the Committee may have some additional questions for you, for 
the witnesses, and we ask that you respond to these in writing. 
Under Committee Rule 3, members of the Committee must submit 
the questions to the Subcommittee Clerk by 5 p.m. on January 
23. The hearing record will be held open for 10 business days 
for your responses.
    If there is no further business, the Committee is 
adjourned.

    [Whereupon, at 11:01 a.m., the Subcommittee was adjourned.]

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