[House Hearing, 118 Congress]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]





                       THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION'S
                  REGULATORY AND POLICYMAKING EFFORTS
                   TO UNDERMINE U.S. IMMIGRATION LAW

=======================================================================

                                HEARING

                               BEFORE THE

                              COMMITTEE ON
                      OVERSIGHT AND ACCOUNTABILITY
                     U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

                    ONE HUNDRED EIGHTEENTH CONGRESS

                             SECOND SESSION

                               __________


                            JANUARY 17, 2024

                               __________


                           Serial No. 118-84

                               __________

  Printed for the use of the Committee on Oversight and Accountability







                 [GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]





                       Available on: govinfo.gov,
                         oversight.house.gov or
                             docs.house.gov

                               ______
                                 

                 U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE

54-569 PDF                WASHINGTON : 2024









               COMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT AND ACCOUNTABILITY

                    JAMES COMER, Kentucky, Chairman

Jim Jordan, Ohio                     Jamie Raskin, Maryland, Ranking 
Mike Turner, Ohio                        Minority Member
Paul Gosar, Arizona                  Eleanor Holmes Norton, District of 
Virginia Foxx, North Carolina            Columbia
Glenn Grothman, Wisconsin            Stephen F. Lynch, Massachusetts
Michael Cloud, Texas                 Gerald E. Connolly, Virginia
Gary Palmer, Alabama                 Raja Krishnamoorthi, Illinois
Clay Higgins, Louisiana              Ro Khanna, California
Pete Sessions, Texas                 Kweisi Mfume, Maryland
Andy Biggs, Arizona                  Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, New York
Nancy Mace, South Carolina           Katie Porter, California
Jake LaTurner, Kansas                Cori Bush, Missouri
Pat Fallon, Texas                    Jimmy Gomez, California
Byron Donalds, Florida               Shontel Brown, Ohio
Scott Perry, Pennsylvania            Melanie Stansbury, New Mexico
William Timmons, South Carolina      Robert Garcia, California
Tim Burchett, Tennessee              Maxwell Frost, Florida
Marjorie Taylor Greene, Georgia      Summer Lee, Pennsylvania
Lisa McClain, Michigan               Greg Casar, Texas
Lauren Boebert, Colorado             Jasmine Crockett, Texas
Russell Fry, South Carolina          Dan Goldman, New York
Anna Paulina Luna, Florida           Jared Moskowitz, Florida
Nick Langworthy, New York            Rashida Tlaib, Michigan
Eric Burlison, Missouri
Mike Waltz, Florida

                                 ------                                

                       Mark Marin, Staff Director
       Jessica Donlon, Deputy Staff Director and General Counsel
                James Rust, Chief Counsel for Oversight
                        Sloan McDonagh, Counsel
      Mallory Cogar, Deputy Director of Operations and Chief Clerk

                      Contact Number: 202-225-5074

                  Julie Tagen, Minority Staff Director

                      Contact Number: 202-225-5051

                                 ------                                








                         C  O  N  T  E  N  T  S

                              ----------                              
                                                                   Page
Hearing held on January 17, 2024.................................     1

                               WITNESSES

                              ----------                              

Joseph Edlow, Former Acting Director and Chief Counsel, U.S. 
  Citizenship and Immigration Services; Founder, The Edlow Group 
  LLC
    Oral Statement...............................................     6

Tom Homan, Former Acting Director, U.S. Immigration and Customs 
  Enforcement
    Oral Statement...............................................     7

David Bier (Minority Witness), Associate Director of Immigration 
  Studies, Cato Institute
    Oral Statement...............................................    10

 Opening statements and the prepared statements for the witnesses 
  are available in the U.S. House of Representatives Repository 
  at: docs.house.gov.

                           INDEX OF DOCUMENTS

                              ----------                              
  * Article, The Intercept, ``ICE Agents Struggled to Prove 
  Trump's Lies About Immigrants''; submitted by Rep. Casar.
  * Article, Newsweek, ``Trump's ICE Director Doesn't Care About 
  Families Separated at Border''; submitted by Rep. Casar.
  * Article, FoxNews, ``Biden admin admits migrant drownings 
  occurred''; submitted by Rep. Cloud.
  * Article, Washington Times, ``MTG threatens to oust Speaker 
  Mike Johnson''; submitted by Rep. Moskowitz.
  * Article, PBS, ``Some Lawmakers Propose Loosening Child Labor 
  Laws''; submitted by Rep. Ocasio-Cortez.
  * Article, Slate, `` Government Had No Intention of Reuniting 
  Separated Families''; submitted by Rep. Raskin.
  * Article, ABC News, ``Trump Admin misses court deadline to 
  reunite''; submitted by Rep. Raskin.
  * CBP Enforcement Statistics; submitted by Rep. Raskin.
  * Congress Immigration Bills; submitted by Rep. Raskin.
  * Memo, re: US Border Patrol TIs, from Dem Member; submitted by 
  Rep. Raskin.
  * Report, National Immigration Forum, ``Immigration Forum 
  Illicit Fentanyl POE''; submitted by Rep. Tlaib.
  * Article, VOA News, ``Hundreds of Migrants Face Sex Attacks''; 
  submitted by Rep. Waltz.
  * Article, NY Post, ``Migrant Children Sexually Abused in 'Rape 
  Tents' While Crossing Darien Gap''; submitted by Rep. Waltz.
  * Article, Doctors Without Borders, ``The facts about the 
  humanitarian crisis''; submitted by Rep. Waltz.
  * Article, The New York Times, ``You Have to Pay with Your 
  Body''; submitted by Rep. Waltz.
  * Statement for the Record; submitted by Rep. Connolly.

The documents listed are available at: docs.house.gov.








 
                       THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION'S
                  REGULATORY AND POLICYMAKING EFFORTS
                   TO UNDERMINE U.S. IMMIGRATION LAW

                              ----------                              


                      Wednesday, January 17, 2024

                        House of Representatives

               Committee on Oversight and Accountability

                                           Washington, D.C.

    The Committee met, pursuant to notice, at 10:10 a.m., in 
room 2154, Rayburn House Office Building, Hon. James 
Comer[Chairman of the Committee] presiding.
    Present: Representatives Comer, Jordan, Foxx, Grothman, 
Cloud, Palmer, Biggs, Mace, LaTurner, Fallon, Donalds, Timmons, 
Greene, Boebert, Luna, Burlison, Waltz, Raskin, Norton, 
Krishnamoorthi, Khanna, Mfume, Ocasio-Cortez, Porter, Bush, 
Brown, Stansbury, Garcia, Frost, Lee, Casar, Crockett, Goldman, 
Moskowitz, and Tlaib.
    Chairman Comer. The Committee on Oversight and 
Accountability will come to order, and I want to welcome 
everyone here this morning.
    Without objection, the Chair may declare a recess at any 
time.
    The first order of business is ratifying the new 
Subcommittee roster. The clerks have distributed the roster 
electronically.
    I ask unanimous consent that the Committee approve the 
appointments and assignments as shown on the roster.
    Without objection, the Subcommittee roster is approved.
    I recognize myself for the purpose of making an opening 
statement.
    One of this Committee's first hearings at the start of this 
Congress was examining the worsening border crisis. We heard 
from two chief Border Patrol agents, who testified about a 
crisis that was setting records for illegal border crossings, 
migrant deaths, narcotics seized, and suspected terrorists 
arrested trying to illegally cross the border. Tragically, the 
Biden Administration did not pay heed to their testimony, and 
the border crisis has continued to deepen, affecting almost 
every American. Just last week, New York City forced children 
to stay home from school so that illegal immigrants could be 
housed in their classrooms.
    Alongside the Homeland Security Committee, the Oversight 
Committee has been investigating the border crisis, 
interviewing Chief Border Patrol agents from every sector along 
the Southwest border. We released a staff report yesterday 
describing their experiences and detailing the hardships of 
attempting to protect the border without the support of the 
Biden Administration. I urge all my colleagues, including 
Ranking Member Raskin, to read this very detailed report.
    Today's hearing is an opportunity to hear from experts with 
decades of law enforcement experience on how policy decisions 
made by the Biden Administration have led us to the border 
crisis we are witnessing today. President Biden and his 
Administration have refused to take any responsibility for the 
catastrophe they created, and now the Biden Administration is 
doing what it does best, asking taxpayers for more money. But 
more money is not going to solve much on the border because 
what we are seeing is not a money problem. It is a policy 
problem. It is a problem of not enforcing U.S. immigration law. 
No amount of money can fix bad policy.
    Make no mistake, a blank check in the hands of the Biden 
Administration does not mean more border security and less 
illegal immigration. A blank check does not mean more detention 
and removals of illegal aliens, which is what is needed to stem 
this crisis. A blank check means more Biden Administration 
policies undermining U.S. immigration law. A blank check means 
even faster releases of more illegal aliens into the interior 
of our country. A blank check means more Agency memos and 
rulemaking to undermine the rule of immigration law in this 
country and give administrative amnesty to whole classes of 
illegal aliens residing in the country.
    The Biden Administration refuses to acknowledge that 3 
years of poor policy decisions have led to the situation we 
find ourselves in today, and it is not getting any better. 
Preliminary reports indicate that a record-setting 302,000 
encounters were made last month on the Southwest border, and 
the majority of those encountered, at least two-thirds, maybe 
even more, are not being detained for removal proceedings. 
Under the Biden Administration, most illegal aliens are 
released within hours or days of their apprehension. Those 
illegal aliens, if they even show up to Immigration Court at 
all, will enter a court system now saddled with over 3 million 
cases nationwide, and even if they are issued a final order of 
removal, it is unlikely the Administration will make them a 
priority to effectuate the removal.
    Since the beginning of this Congress, House Republicans 
have worked to hold the Biden Administration accountable for 
policy decisions that have encouraged illegal immigration and 
overwhelmed law enforcement. We have also worked to pass 
legislation to solve this crisis. In May of last year, House 
Republicans passed H.R. 2, the Secure the Border Act of 2023, 
to restore order within our immigration system. Our solutions 
are simple. Illegal activity on the border must be met with 
adequate and timely consequences, not a quick release to await 
years long removal proceedings where hundreds of thousands of 
aliens file frivolous or fraudulent applications that create 
delays for those who truly qualify. Our message to President 
Biden is this: enforce the law and restore policies that deter 
illegal immigration. I thank the witnesses for appearing today 
and look forward to their testimony.
    I now yield to Ranking Member Raskin for his opening 
remarks.
    Mr. Raskin. Mr. Chairman, thank you very much. Today, our 
colleagues are using their first full Committee hearing of the 
year to distract from the depressing reality that they failed 
to bring forward even a single piece of serious bipartisan 
legislation, much less a bipartisan bill, to improve our 
immigration system and confront our major challenges on the 
Southern border. The 118th Congress is shaping up to be one of 
the most unproductive in American history with only 34 bills 
signed into law in 2023, a small fraction of the number 
typically enacted in a year. They simply have no program for 
America and just operate at the beck and call of Donald Trump. 
It has become obvious that Trump's party does not want 
immigration solutions at the border. They want immigration 
problems to run against.
    The other main issue they used to demagogue--abortion--is 
no longer available to them because the country's negative 
response to the Supreme Court's destruction of Roe v. Wade in 
2022 demonstrates this is still a country that prizes freedom, 
rejects theocratic repression, and opposes the MAGA 
Republicans' eagerness to pass a national law banning abortion 
rights, so they cannot talk about those plans anymore. The cat 
has got their tongue.
    So, with no positive program on infrastructure, healthcare, 
education, or anything else to run on, the do-nothing MAGA 
Republicans are hoping that simply demagoguing the issue of 
immigration, while not addressing it in any serious way, will 
be their ticket back to the White House. Then Trump can resume 
the real work that he wants to accomplish: pocketing for 
himself and his family tens of millions or billions of dollars 
from foreign governments, like Communist China, and the 
murderous monarchs of Saudi Arabia, the United Arab Emirates, 
and Qatar, and so on. But they forget that, as with 
reproductive freedom, the American people have real values on 
immigration. America is a Nation of immigrants, but it is also 
a Nation of laws, and we must make America accessible for 
lawful immigration while we reduce and discourage unlawful 
immigration.
    So where is their plan? The immigration system has been 
broken for decades. We know that migration surges are provoked 
by economic and social crisis, war, violence, lack of 
opportunity, and natural disasters rather than the specific 
immigration policies of any particular administration. As we 
will hear from our expert witness today from the Cato 
Institute, scholars across the spectrum have found evidence 
that it is the strength of our country's labor market, coupled 
with inadequate pathways to legal migration, that are the 
domestic factors that best explain the immigration surges that 
we see. So, if we have a record high jobs rate, as we do under 
President Biden--4 percent for 2 years--and a great demand for 
workers in the country but far too few legal options for entry 
to the country, we will be dealing with a lot of unlawful 
entry.
    The difficult challenges posed by immigration require 
comprehensive policy solutions, and that is what Democrats have 
advanced. On his first day in office, President Biden sent 
Congress the U.S. Citizenship Act, a strong immigration reform 
proposal that would modernize and invest in greater border 
security, expand lawful pathways to immigration citizenship, 
address immigrant visa backlogs, and combat the underlying 
conditions that fuel migration in the first place.
    Biden has acted to strengthen the American immigration 
system and enforcement of our border security laws. He ordered 
the hiring of 300 additional Border Patrol agents, the first 
hiring increase of such agents in more than a decade, a decade 
which included the big talking and wall-obsessed Trump 
Administration. The Biden-Harris team is also engaged in 
coordinated efforts to thwart fentanyl trafficking by making 
more illicit fentanyl-related arrests in the last 2 years than 
in the prior 5 years combined.
    The Administration also ended the gratuitously inhumane and 
failed policies of the Trump Administration, including the 
cruel separation of immigrant families at the Southwest border. 
The Administration repaired and expanded lawful immigration 
pathways through newly established parole processes and 
increased refugee admissions. It also made historic investments 
to strengthen enforcement and reduce unlawful border crossings, 
and the Administration is addressing the underlying causes of 
undocumented migration by engaging in global efforts with our 
international partners. Taken together, these efforts will make 
it easier to get into America lawfully and a lot harder for 
people and illicit drugs to get into America unlawfully.
    Our colleagues try to paint these policies as radical. In 
reality, the Biden-Harris Administration has used its 
rulemaking authority faithfully and appropriately, as upheld in 
court, time and again. For example, on June 23d last year, the 
Supreme Court sided with the Biden Administration in a 
resounding 8 to 1 decision to uphold its policy of focusing 
limited Federal resources on addressing unlawful migrants who 
are suspected terrorists and criminals, but we know it is not 
enough alone to enforce existing laws. Congress must reform our 
immigration system and provide adequate resources to support 
it.
    Last Congress, House Democrats passed five comprehensive 
immigration bills that would rebuild our broken system and 
provide pathways to lawful immigration, but this Congress, the 
MAGA Majority refuses to bring forward any of the nearly 70 
bipartisan or Democratic immigration reform bills already on 
the table. Instead of engaging meaningfully on these proposals 
or approving President Biden's requests for robust border 
security funding, MAGA Republicans have put forth proposals 
that range from cruel and unworkable, such as their Child 
Deportation Act, to nonsensical and strange, such as their 
proposals to defund the Department of Homeland Security and 
slash the Secretary's salary to $1.
    They prefer to waste time and resources than to engage in 
serious negotiations about policies and funding that would work 
to strengthen the border. This was made clear last week in 
their outlandish sham impeachment hearing against Secretary 
Mayorkas. Our colleagues apparently do not know the difference 
between a policy disagreement and a constitutional high crime 
and misdemeanor.
    Rather than joining Democrats and Biden in good-faith, 
bipartisan negotiations to make progress on immigration, they 
are taking orders from Donald Trump and actively obstructing a 
bipartisan border deal. Just as Trump is openly hoping for an 
economic downturn in our robust, low unemployment economy, they 
are hoping for chaos at the border and trying to stop us from 
preventing it. These tactics are accompanied by dangerous 
rhetoric. MAGA Republicans continue to invoke white 
supremacist, anti-immigration fantasies, and conspiracy 
theories. It has been almost a full year since I invited the 
good Chairman and my Republican colleagues to join oversight 
Democrats in condemning the Great Replacement theory, and still 
they fail to denounce this shameful doctrine, which has been 
invoked by numerous racist and antisemitic mass shooters and 
murderers across the country.
    America is not a great country in spite of immigrants. We 
are a great country because of immigrants. Immigrants are 
essential to our present and our future just as they fit into 
our history, and Democrats will continue to stand up for strong 
laws and oppose the hatred and scapegoating of immigrants. We 
are here to legislate and to do the hard work of hammering out 
a bipartisan policy path to comprehensive immigration reform, 
just as we were a decade ago when House Republicans scuttled a 
hard-fought immigration reform package that passed the Senate 
with bipartisan support. We will still be here when my 
colleagues are ready to step back from the extremist ledge and 
come to the table, working together for effective and pragmatic 
solutions.
    Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. I yield back.
    Chairman Comer. I am very pleased to introduce our 
witnesses today. Joseph Edlow most recently served as Acting 
Director of U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services under the 
prior Administration, and prior to that role, he served as 
their chief counsel. He has also served as a Deputy Assistant 
Attorney General with the Office of Legal Policy at the 
Department of Justice. He also has experience litigating before 
the Immigration Court, serving as an Assistant Chief Counsel at 
U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement in Baltimore for 
several years.
    Tom Homan served as the Acting Director of ICE in 2017 and 
2018. Prior to his appointment, he was the Executive Director 
for ICE Enforcement and Removal Operations, where he was 
awarded the 2015 Presidential Rank Award as a distinguished 
executive. He brings over 3 decades of experience working in 
law enforcement, including working as a Border Patrol agent. 
And David Bier is Associate Director of Immigration Studies at 
the Cato Institute, where he focuses his research and writing 
on legal immigration, border security, and interior 
enforcement. He previously served as a senior policy advisor 
for former representative Raul Labrador from Idaho.
    I originally invited Attorney General Liz Murrill of the 
great state of Louisiana to testify at today's hearing. 
Unfortunately, weather-related flight cancellations prevented 
her appearance.
    I would ask unanimous consent to enter into the record a 
copy of what would have been her prepared written testimony.
    Without objection, so ordered.
    Chairman Comer. Pursuant to Committee Rule 9(g), the 
witnesses will please stand and raise their right hand.
    Do you solemnly swear or affirm that the testimony you are 
about to give is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but 
the truth, so help you God?
    [A chorus of ayes.]
    Let the record show that the witnesses all answered in the 
affirmative. We appreciate all of you being here today and look 
forward to your testimony.
    Let me remind the witnesses that we have read your written 
statements and they will appear in full in the hearing record. 
Please limit your oral statements to 5 minutes. As a reminder, 
please press the button on the microphone in front of you so 
that it is on, and the Members can hear you. When you begin to 
speak, the light in front of you will turn green. After 4 
minutes, the light will turn yellow. When the red light comes 
on, your 5 minutes has expired, and we would ask that you 
please wrap up.
    I recognize Mr. Edlow to please begin his opening 
statement.

                      STATEMENT OF JOSEPH B. EDLOW

                FORMER ACTING DIRECTOR AND CHIEF COUNSEL

               U.S. CITIZENSHIP AND IMMIGRATION SERVICES

                                FOUNDER

                          THE EDLOW GROUP LLC

    Mr. Edlow. Thank you, sir. Chairman Comer, Ranking Member 
Raskin, and distinguished Members of this Committee, thank you 
for the opportunity to present testimony today regarding the 
regulatory and policymaking efforts that have directly 
undermined U.S. immigration law, triggering a crisis of epic 
proportions.
    Using a cadre of intentional mechanisms, the Biden 
Administration has waged war against the immigration system of 
the United States. Beginning on day one, the Biden 
Administration halted all deportations for 100 days. This was 
followed by President Biden's executive order on restoring 
faith in our legal immigration systems and strengthening 
integration and inclusion efforts for new Americans. The order 
required DHS, in conjunction with DOJ and the Department of 
State, to identify barriers that impede access to immigration 
benefits and to find fair, efficient adjudications of these 
benefits and make recommendations on how to remove these 
barriers, thus creating the battle cry of the Administration--
removing barriers to mass migration, no matter the legality.
    To that end, Secretary Mayorkas issued a memorandum 
entitled, ``Guidelines for the Enforcement of Civil Immigration 
Law,'' which outlined the appropriate instances in which DHS 
was authorized to take action against aliens either unlawfully 
present or lawfully present but removable. While in theory this 
would seem to encompass many aliens who should probably be 
targeted for enforcement actions by ICE, in reality, the 
numerous carveouts, loose definitions, and required factors for 
consideration made it nearly impossible to move forward with 
most enforcement actions. These poorly defined categories could 
be seen to give even the most serious of criminal aliens a free 
pass in the interest of equity and justice.
    The Administration has engaged in numerous rulemakings 
aimed at so-called efficiency and expediency at the border. 
These regulatory efforts focused on border processing and on 
Immigration Court procedures have been haphazard, creating more 
confusion at the border and are largely in direct conflict with 
congressional action, a clear violation of the Chevron 
Doctrine. These regulatory actions that purport to be tough on 
illegal border crossers more likely incentivize than deter 
aliens. The actions render moot anti-fraud measures and upend 
the congressional determinations on the credible fear process 
itself.
    Even more concerning, these actions put pressure on 
immigration judges to conclude cases quickly while 
simultaneously eroding ICE's critical role in the Immigration 
Court process. The intended result is non-adversarial 
Immigration Court hearings where the presumption always favor 
the aliens seeking relief. Last, the parole abuse continues to 
be a tool in the Biden Administration's arsenal as unlawful 
mass parole programs have played a large role in artificially 
decreasing numbers along the Southwest border. Categorical 
parole programs flagrantly disregard the plain language of the 
statute, which unambiguously limits parole to case-by-case 
matters and for very specific reasons.
    The results speak for themselves. Removals are the ultimate 
measure of effective immigration enforcement, and the numbers 
clearly demonstrate the stunning decrease during this 
Administration. ICE has removed aliens at a rate of 3.5 percent 
of the aggregate number of encounters compared to 32 percent 
during the previous Administration. As for border encounters, 
under the current Administration, Customs and Border Protection 
has recorded more than 8.5 million encounters at America's 
borders, including more than 7 million at the Southwest border 
alone.
    As each memorandum, regulatory action, or policy decision 
is announced, the crisis at the Southwest border grows 
exponentially. The system has been brought to its knees, and 
the Administration does not appear to be slowing down. One 
thing is clear: this is all by design. These actions have 
created instability not only for national security, public 
safety, and the economy, but for the aliens themselves who are 
allowed to remain in a quasi-status that is far more akin to 
limbo than to lawful status under the Immigration and 
Nationality Act. The efforts undertaken by the Administration 
have simply undermined our system and need to be reversed 
immediately.
    I implore this Committee to continue its investigations and 
to take all necessary actions to ensure that the laws are 
faithfully executed and enforced, that order and integrity is 
restored to U.S. immigration law. The Department of Homeland 
Security and the Department of Justice must be subject to 
aggressive oversight and be made to explain why enforcing the 
laws as Congress has prescribed is simply not an option for 
them. They must be made to account for their policy choices, 
and they must be forced to repair the damage. This country is 
unable to fulfill its critical humanitarian mission nor fairly 
and expeditiously provide proper immigration benefits until 
this crisis is quelled. A return to the rule of law is long 
overdue, and it is incumbent upon Congress to demand that 
corrective action be immediately taken.
    I thank you all for your attention and interest in this 
matter and look forward to answering your questions.
    Chairman Comer. Thank you. Mr. Homan?

                       STATEMENT OF THOMAS HOMAN

                            RETIRED DIRECTOR

           UNITED STATES IMMIGRATION AND CUSTOMS ENFORCEMENT

    Mr. Homan. I started my career in immigration enforcement 
in 1984 as a Border Patrol agent. I have worked for six 
Presidents up to Donald Trump. Every President I have ever 
worked for took some steps to secure the border because they 
understood you cannot have strong national security if you do 
not have border security. But President Biden is the first 
President in the history of this Nation that I know of who came 
in office and unsecured border on purpose, and even President 
Obama gave me the Presidential rank award, highest award 
available, because what was I doing at the time? I was locating 
and deporting people who are in the country illegally.
    So, we went for the most secure border of my lifetime, and 
it is not just my opinion. I have done this for 34 years. 
Anybody can go to CBP.gov and look at the data. We handed this 
Administration the most secure border in my lifetime, and 
within months, we went from the most secure border to historic 
illegal immigration, numbers we have never seen before. It is 
not because it is seasonal, it is not because of climate 
change, it is not because of Trump. This is by design.
    We already heard about some of these people are coming 
because of economic reasons or natural disasters. The bottom 
line is when you claim asylum, you must be escaping fear and 
persecution from your home government because of your race, 
religion, political affiliation, or membership in a particular 
social group. That is not the fact. If we look at Immigration 
Court data over the last 10 years, you will see that nearly 9 
out of 10 people who claim asylum at the border never get 
relief from our courts as they simply do not qualify, but they 
are coming and staying because of Biden's promises.
    I wrote an op-ed 6 months before the election. I said if 
President Biden becomes President, we will lose the border 
based on the promises he was making during the campaign, and he 
has kept those promises. Right now, we have record numbers of 
illegal aliens coming across the border. Catch and release is 
rampant. Right now, Secretary Mayorkas already said 85 percent 
of everybody coming to the border is being released into the 
country. They are not being detained, and why aren't they being 
detained? Because of two reasons. No. 1, because he knows like 
I do, that the vast majority of these people will be ordered 
removed 5, 6, 7 years down the road, maybe 10. He also knows 
the Homeland Security lifecycle report says if you get an order 
of removal and you are in an ICE bed, you get removed 99 
percent of the time, but if you are not in detention, your 
chances of being removed are slim; if you are a family unit, 
about 6 percent. That is why they are releasing them, thousands 
of empty ICE beds sitting there right now already paid for by 
the taxpayer. They would rather release them because they know 
the vast majority will lose their case and would be ordered 
removed, but if they are not detention, they will not be 
removed.
    So, this Administration comes up with what they call lawful 
pathways, which I think are illegal and I think they will lose 
when the decision of the courts come out. The CBP One app, 95.8 
percent are approved. Where is the case-by-case analysis that 
is supposed to be done for people for parole? That has not been 
done. It is a shell game. They move thousands to the port of 
entry, so they can claim less illegal entries between the ports 
of entries. But it has failed because November-December, we saw 
record amounts of crossings on the border, over 300,000 just in 
December.
    And people who say that the border is not in crisis, I tell 
you this. In 2020, the total encounters in the Southwest border 
was 646,000; this year, 3.2 million, 5 times what we saw during 
last year of Trump Administration. Court orders are years out, 
but this Administration is counting out, you overflow the 
system. Push these court dates back 7, 8 years, and what is 
going to happen? Mark my word: when they finally get an order 
to removal 7 years down the road, do not have a USC child, will 
have two USC children. Now we will get phone calls from the 
Director of ICE, we will get phone calls from the Hill, saying 
why did you remove that person with two USC kids? Well, he did 
not have two USC kids when entering the country illegally, so 
now that he has two USC kids, he is immune from law. The court 
order means nothing.
    So, here is what I am looking for. For people who demand 
these people have a right to claim asylum, they have a right to 
due process, I agree, but due process does not mean anything if 
the final decision of the court is not executed, and people are 
not removed. So, if it takes 5 or 6 years, they still must be 
removed or the system means nothing.
    I have been attacked numerous times because I worked for 
President Trump. They said our policy is inhumane. I have been 
called a racist and a bigot by Members of Congress. Let us get 
one thing straight. Under President Trump, illegal immigration 
went to a 40-45-year low, 83 percent decline in illegal 
immigration. There have been several studies saying 31 percent 
of women that make that journey through cartels get sexually 
assaulted.
    So, let me ask you a question or make a point. When 83 
percent less people are coming, how many migrants did not die 
crossing the border when 83 percent less were coming? How many 
people did not die? How many people on the terrorist screening 
data base did not try to come in the country because Border 
Patrol is 100 hundred percent vigilant on the line and not 
overwhelmed. How many women and children did not get sex 
trafficked into the United States, forced into sex slavery, 
forced labor, and debt bondage? How many billions did the 
criminal cartels not make?
    Under President Biden, where they call this humane, over 
1,700 migrants have died on U.S. soil, a historic record, not 
counting the Darien Gap and Mexico and Central America; a 
hundred and 12 thousand Americans dying from fentanyl; 
historical increase in sex trafficking and forced labor and 
debt bondage; almost a hundred thousand missing kids that were 
released by ORR. Four hundred and forty thousand unaccompanied 
children enter the country through the service of the cartels. 
Someone needs to explain me how that is humane, any of this 
stuff, and a record number of people on the terrorist watch 
list being arrested. One point nine million got-aways. That 
statement alone should convince anybody on either side, 1.9 
million got-aways, the border is not secure. It is ridiculous 
to claim so.
    Chairman Comer. Thank you. The Chair recognizes Mr. Bier 
for his opening statement.

                       STATEMENT OF DAVID J. BIER

               ASSOCIATE DIRECTOR OF IMMIGRATION STUDIES

                             CATO INSTITUTE

    Mr. Bier. Chairman Comer, Ranking Member Raskin and 
distinguished Members of the Committee, thank you for the 
opportunity to testify. For nearly half a century, the Cato 
Institute has produced original research showing that a freer, 
more orderly, and more lawful immigration system benefits 
Americans and protects the rule of law. Congress' mandate is 
simple: create legal ways for Americans to associate, contract, 
and trade with people born in other countries. Unfortunately, 
America's legal immigration system was originally designed a 
century ago and last updated in 1990.
    This system has been flawed and failing for decades, but 
then starting in January 2017, it faced an assault unlike any 
in American history. For 4 years, the prior Administration 
relentlessly, and often illegally, undermined every fundamental 
aspect of our immigration system. For the first time in modern 
U.S. history, a President used his authority to ban legal 
immigration: visa issuances cut 80 percent; refugee arrivals 
down 92 percent; Afghan allies abandoned to be killed by the 
Taliban. For the first time since the Refugee Act of 1980, an 
administration completely unilaterally nullified asylum law to 
send people back to persecution and torture.
    As it spent incalculable resources shredding America's 
immigration system, it never secured the border. December 2020 
saw the most Border Patrol arrests for any December going all 
the way back to the year 2000 and the most successful illegal 
entries in almost as long. Yet, by the end of 2020, the prior 
Administration had gutted much of the immigration enforcement 
system. Two, in December 2020, immigrant detention fell to the 
lowest level since the 1990's. ICE removals were at the lowest 
levels in the history of the Agency to that point. Immigration 
courts finished the fewest cases on record.
    The current Administration pulled the system back from the 
brink. Legal immigration obliterated by those 4 years is 
finally back. It saved the U.S. tourism industry, rescued 
countless small businesses from closure, and reopened America 
for investment again. It saved tens of thousands of American 
allies from the Taliban. Of course, bringing back a flawed 
system was never going to be enough. With liberty on the 
retreat around the world, more displaced people are migrating 
than ever, and with U.S. job openings at record highs, more 
people are choosing America as their destination.
    The Administration took dramatic steps to respond to this 
challenge, forcibly removing more immigrants than any year 
since 2001. It even removed a higher share of border crossers 
during its first 2 years in office than the prior 
Administration did in its last 2 years in office. But those 
efforts did not show results and, to its credit, it changed its 
tactics and launched pilot programs that allowed some people 
the ability to apply to enter legally. These parole programs 
have dramatically reduced illegal immigration by those eligible 
for them. They have virtually eliminated illegal immigration by 
Haitians and Cubans. This is not enough.
    And I am sure my colleagues are saying where is the David 
Bier that spent the last 3 years criticizing this 
Administration, and that is fair. I will take that criticism, 
but what I will not take is criticism of this Administration's 
efforts to rebuild this system from the very people who spent 4 
years undermining every aspect of that system. It would be 
laughable if they simply stopped at ripping the system apart, 
but instead they said, ``you know what these immigration laws 
should really be used for?'' The torment of little kids. They 
turned down prosecuting sex offenders just so that they could 
make sure the last image a child saw of his mother was her 
being dragged away by a Border Patrol agent.
    We can do better. We can have a humane and orderly 
immigration system, but we need to start with the premise that 
people are not the problem. People are the ultimate resource. 
The problem is the illegality, the chaos, the disorder, but we 
can fix those things with a better system. So, sure, let us 
debate the particulars, but let them come legally. Thank you.
    Chairman Comer. Now we will begin the question-and-answer 
portion of the hearing.
    The Chair recognizes the Chairman of the National Security 
Subcommittee, Mr. Grothman from Wisconsin, for 5 minutes.
    Mr. Grothman. Thank you very much. Just to clarify a couple 
of things, people make it sound like it is impossible to come 
here. Last year, I do not know if we have the final figures, 
but almost 1 million people were legally sworn in as new 
citizens in this country. And as far as keeping families 
together, we are now at a point where, depending on the month, 
7,000 to 9,000 unaccompanied minors without either parent are 
allowed in this country and some just taken off to foster care 
to somebody who is completely unrelated to them. So, it is not 
at all true to say that people cannot find a way to come here. 
They have all of these visas, and almost a million a year are 
sworn in as new citizens, and as we are proceeding with the 
process, 8,000 to 10,000 kids left in here without their 
parents.
    Now, Mr. Homan, is it a criminal act to enter the U.S. 
without authorization between points of entry?
    Mr. Homan. Yes, a violation of Title 8, U.S.C. 1325. It is 
a criminal act.
    Mr. Grothman. OK. So, yes, a criminal act. Many of the 
illegal aliens we see cross the Southwest border have 
smartphones and luggage. By the way, I will stop right there. 
You are familiar with the border. Do you buy into this idea 
that all of these people coming here are destitute, or are some 
people that are pretty well off given where their country is, 
where they came from?
    Mr. Homan. Well, people are coming from 181 different 
countries, so every country is different. But like I said, you 
go over the Immigration Court data, the vast majority of these 
people will be ordered removed because they do not qualify for 
asylum. They are using a loophole by claiming asylum, saying a 
few key phrases taught by the cartels, get released in United 
States. Many of them show up in court, and those that do show 
up in the court that get a final order approval will not leave 
because Secretary Mayorkas has said to ICE, being in the 
country illegally on its own, is not enough for ICE to seek an 
arrest, which is just going to bring more people. They know how 
to enter the country illegally. As long as they do not commit a 
serious crime, ICE is not looking for them.
    Mr. Grothman. OK. The media in this Administration claim 
that many illegal aliens come from countries with poor economic 
conditions or crime. Are poor economic conditions, coming here 
from Brazil or whatever that have economic downturn, are poor 
economic conditions or general fear of crime, like if somebody 
comes in here from Chicago, I mean, Mexico, are they valid 
legal grounds for granting an asylum case?
    Mr. Homan. No. Asylum is escaping fear and persecution from 
your home state government because of your race, religion, 
political affiliation, or participation in specific social 
group.
    Mr. Grothman. OK. What happens to these frivolous claims 
that are made by illegal aliens released by the Biden 
Administration, assuming they even apply for asylum in the 
first place, and many do not, and is there an impact on the 
courts and the USCIS?
    Mr. Homan. Well, I will let Mr. Edlow talked about CIS, but 
the courts are backlogged by millions of cases. Some of these 
cases are going to be out 7, 8 years, so it has had a 
tremendous impact to the Immigration Courts, but, again, that 
is by design. You flood the court system, put the hearings out 
7, 8 years, then the people build equities, and when they build 
equities, U.S. citizen children, buy a house, it makes them 
more difficult to remove. The vast majority become fugitives, 
so ignore the court order. They are going into hiding waiting 
for the next give-away, waiting for the next amnesty, waiting 
for the next DACA.
    Mr. Grothman. Now, I want to just clarify some numbers 
here, so we understand the size of the program. As I understand 
it, in December, over 300,000 people entered this country and 
were allowed in or were got-aways who just got their way in. 
And when the last Administration left office, that number was, 
depending on the month, 5,000 to 20,000. So, it increased by a 
factor of about 30 to 1. Is that accurate, 30 times more people 
coming into the interior of this country than 2 years ago?
    Mr. Homan. It depends on what month you look at, but 
overall, as I explained earlier, total encounters are 5 times 
as many under this Administration than Trump, and the gentleman 
to my left talks about percentages of people being removed 
under Trump, removed under Biden. Well, here is the difference. 
Percentage of the 2.3 million is a lot different than 
percentage of 6,646. It is not about percentages, it is about 
how many people were released in the country, and there is zero 
comparison between the Trump Administration and Biden 
Administration. And the 2020 data he is talking about, let us 
remember this is COVID, Immigration enforcement in the interior 
was shut down, so, you know, the numbers are cleared.
    The Remain in Mexico program, a game changer. People can 
still claim asylum, but they wait in Mexico. That was a game 
changer. People stopped coming. People stopped putting their 
lives at risk. People stopped selling everything they had to 
come to United States to be released. And what happened after 2 
months of Remain in Mexico? They stopped coming, which means 
less people died, less women were sexually assaulted. The 
criminal cartels made less money, less drugs getting into the 
country because the Border Patrol 100 percent on the line, 
vigilant, doing their job.
    Mr. Grothman. Less people drowning in the Rio Grande. Less 
people dehydrated in the Arizona desert. Amen. We have one more 
question. If the vast majority of illegal aliens have no legal 
basis to enter and remain in the U.S., why is the Biden 
Administration releasing millions of them into our country 
rather than detaining and deporting them?
    Mr. Homan. Because they have the same data points that I 
have. They know that a vast majority will get ordered removal, 
where if they are not detained, the chances of ever them 
leaving are very slim. Again, this is by design. There are 
thousands of empty ICE beds already paid for by the taxpayer, 
but this Administration would rather put them in a hotel room 
at $500 a night with free medical care, three squares a day. 
And the policies of this Administration is driving illegal 
immigration.
    The cartels sell the fact. You can cross the border 
illegally. You get processed quickly. You will get flown to the 
city of your choice on the taxpayer dime. You will be put in a 
hotel and be taken care of. And even when you lose your case, 
you are not going to be removed because the Secretary told ICE 
unless you are convicted of an aggravated felony or you are a 
national security threat, you are not a target for arrest. That 
drives more people to come.
    Mr. Grothman. Thank you.
    Chairman Comer. Thank you. The Chair recognizes Mr. Raskin, 
from Maryland.
    Mr. Raskin. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Bier, my 
colleagues claim that the Biden-Harris Administration has 
failed to secure the Southern border. But these claims were 
directly and overwhelmingly contradicted by multiple chief 
patrol agents from the U.S. Border Patrol--witnesses with 
direct knowledge about border security who the Republicans 
themselves brought before the Committee last year. Fortunately 
for America, but unfortunately for the Republicans, the chief 
patrol agents confirmed that their ability to secure the border 
has dramatically increased under the Biden and Harris 
Administration, thanks to increased funding resources. For 
example, the chief patrol agent responsible for the Del Rio 
Sector of the Southern border stated last year, ``Because we 
have gotten more detection capability, because we have, as you 
said, more on the way, we have got the additional processing 
coordinators, we are in a better situation than we were in 
years past.'' The chief patrol agent responsible for the Big 
Bend Sector told the Committee last year, ``We reduced the 
entries and got-aways in Big Bend Sector over the course of the 
last 2 years. We have been very successful.''
    Mr. Bier, given the feedback of these chief patrol agents, 
is it credible, in your view, for Republicans to characterize 
border security under the current Administration as weaker than 
under the last Administration?
    Mr. Bier. Not at all, and if you look at 2019, for example, 
you had almost 1 million encounters that year, which was half 
of the level that we are seeing now, and yet, despite having 
much lower total numbers, they still were not removing a higher 
share than the Biden Administration did. So, yes, there has 
been more resources put in. There has been more effort by this 
Administration. I mentioned the number of removals being the 
highest since 2001. So, the idea that they are not putting in 
the effort is really, I mean, it is offensive to the Border 
Patrol agents who are doing their job.
    Mr. Raskin. Those agents also explained that DHS Secretary 
Mayorkas' policies have been successful in reducing unlawful 
crossings while also expanding lawful pathways for people 
fleeing countries experiencing economic and political turmoil 
and violence. Mr. Bier, has the Biden and Harris Administration 
been more or less successful than the Trump Administration's 
DHS in removing migrants who illegally crossed the border?
    Mr. Bier. Yes, they have been more successful. They removed 
a higher share during their first 2 years than the Trump 
Administration did in its last 2 years, and if you look at the 
trend over time, starting in 2017, the number of successful 
illegal entries went up each year under the Trump 
Administration and peaked in December 2020, reaching the 
highest levels in almost 15 years.
    Mr. Raskin. And yet, Mr. Homan says also that most 
immigrants do not attend their Immigration Court hearings. The 
information I have from the American Immigration Council says 
that 83 percent of immigrants actually do attend their court 
hearings. Who is right about that?
    Mr. Bier. Well, the data from the Executive Office of 
Immigration Review disproves their claim. They know that they 
are showing up for the hearings, which is why they do not want 
to give them a hearing. They do not want to give them the 
opportunity to prove their asylum claim, and they want to 
remove them without the ability to make that evidence available 
to the court. So yes, they do show up in court. And when you 
are talking about the 17 percent that fail to show, in many 
cases, that is a result of the fact that ICE is putting people 
in Immigration Court proceedings in cities that are far flung 
from where they are going. So, it is often not the fault of the 
migrants themselves who failed to show up in court.
    Mr. Raskin. I think that you articulated well what most 
American people feel, which is that we should discourage as 
much as possible illegal immigration into the country and 
encourage and proliferate possibilities for lawful immigration. 
After all, we have got a job shortage under this booming 
economy. We have had 4 percent or less unemployment for more 
than 2 years now. So, are there policies that we could come 
together on in a bipartisan way to advance these goals?
    Mr. Bier. Oh, absolutely. I mean, I think the 
Administration has proven that the idea of legal immigration as 
an alternative to illegal immigration is a valuable one, and 
they did it using their parole authority. Unfortunately, that 
is a temporary status. It has to be renewed. The Administration 
could take it away at any time. Providing that same 
opportunity, but with congressional action, that provides a 
permanent path to stay, would be a much better option. And you 
are absolutely right: over the last 3 years, we have had an 
average of about 10 million job openings every single month. 
That is why they are coming. Pay attention to your free market 
fundamentals on this.
    Mr. Raskin. Thank you, Mr. Bier. Mr. Chairman, I have a 
unanimous consent request for introduction to the record about 
a memo on transcribed interviews of these chief patrol agents.
    Chairman Comer. Without objection, so ordered.
    Mr. Raskin. And if I could ask you also, Mr. Chairman, can 
we release those nine Border Patrol transcripts from last year 
of all of these agents who testified?
    Chairman Comer. We will get back with you, yes.
    Mr. Raskin. Terrific.
    Chairman Comer. No. I said I am happy to take that issue up 
with you.
    Ms. Stansbury. Point of order.
    Chairman Comer. Today's hearing is about the border crisis, 
the crisis that this Administration has created. We have heard 
the mayor of New York City. We have heard the mayor of 
Washington, DC. We have heard Democrat mayors all over United 
States talking about this issue. We have highly qualified 
witnesses here to discuss this serious matter, so I suggest 
that the questions are addressed to the witnesses today. We 
have good witnesses.
    Ms. Stansbury. Mr. Chairman, point of order.
    Chairman Comer. State your point.
    Ms. Stansbury. I would just like to inquire from the 
Chairman as to why there would be resistance to releasing the 
whole transcripts
    Chairman Comer. That is not a point of order. That is not a 
point of order. Not a point of order.
    Ms. Stansbury [continuing]. Of the Border Patrol agents 
that you interviewed. Why don't you want the public to see 
those transcripts?
    Mr. Biggs. Can I have a point of order?
    Chairman Comer. State your point.
    Mr. Biggs. Yes. After you have ruled on something not being 
a point of order, are we going to allow Members to just keep 
talking over you?
    Chairman Comer. No, she is out of order. All right. Quiet. 
We are resuming questions. I will recognize myself for 5 
minutes.
    Mr. Edlow, can you provide specific examples of Biden 
Administration policies that have contributed to the 
historically high level of illegal immigration we are currently 
witnessing?
    Mr. Edlow. Certainly, and let me start by saying, Mr. 
Chairman, I actually agree with the previous point that we want 
to have policies that encourage legal immigration and 
disincentivize and deter illegal immigration. The problem that 
we are seeing right now are that the policies that have been 
put in place by this Administration, specifically the 
regulatory actions aimed at credible fear determinations and at 
how the Immigration Courts are supposed to function, do exactly 
the opposite. The circumventing lawful pathways regulation, 
which creates a presumption that someone is or is not eligible 
for asylum if they have come over unlawfully--there are so many 
loopholes in that one that if you bring a child, you are going 
to be able to go claim asylum, whereas you would not if you did 
not have a child. So, it is going to encourage more illegal 
immigration, more families coming across. Certainly, the 
memorandum from Secretary Mayorkas that limits the amount of or 
the categories, rather, of people who can be removed. Again, 
those are so narrowly defined that it is going to create an 
incentive, not a disincentive for people to come over.
    Chairman Comer. So, does the high flow of illegal 
immigration divert resources used to adjudicate other 
immigration benefits, and if so, is there an impact on 
individuals seeking other immigration benefits?
    Mr. Edlow. No. Absolutely. You know, looking at USCIS, the 
backlog of affirmative asylum cases for people that are in this 
country that are trying to get asylum, the backlog of 
affirmative cases for people seeking all sorts of immigration 
benefits. And, Mr. Chairman, right now, I actually represent a 
couple of private immigration clients, and I can tell you, the 
lines are very, very long because so much of the resources have 
been put to address or to funnel in people from the Southwest 
border instead of focusing on large other swathes of legal 
immigrants that are trying to come the way that we have always 
said under the law. The bottom line is the law is not being 
followed. If the law was being followed, we would not be here.
    Chairman Comer. So, what policies would the Administration 
need to implement to start to get the situation under control?
    Mr. Edlow. Well, the first policy is simply follow the law. 
Start with expedited removal. Make sure that people who are 
going through are getting their credible fear but that they are 
detained during that process, as Congress has proscribed. Move 
forward with that. Get them into Immigration Court as quickly 
as possible. The previous Administration, we did that. We had 
people in Immigration Court quickly.
    Chairman Comer. OK. Mr. Homan, we have traveled to the 
border, this Committee, the Majority Members of this Committee, 
several times, and we have heard many complaints from our 
Border Patrol agents. Can you describe how the Biden 
Administration has hampered the ability of ICE officers and ICE 
prosecutors to enforce immigration laws?
    Mr. Homan. Yes. Well, I want to address just a couple of 
things that was said previously.
    Chairman Comer. Go ahead.
    Mr. Homan. Mr. Raskin, I never said the majority of aliens 
did not show up in court. I said majority will not leave when 
they are ordered removed. That was not right, and just heard 
the expert witness for the Democrats say that is why they are 
coming, a job. That is why they are coming. So, again, showing 
the abuse of the asylum process, but that is not what asylum is 
about. So, thank you for that, sir.
    And finally, a comment was made about separating mothers 
from children. Let us not forget, 440,000 children enter this 
country through the use of criminal cartels, in the hands of 
criminal organizations, that self-separated from their families 
because of policies of this Administration. We have, also, this 
Administration, fallen off track, between 85,000 and 100,000 
children that were released to the so-called sponsors that we 
cannot find. They have no idea who they are, if they are in 
danger, who is taking care of them, and what they are doing. 
But we do know this: there have been many investigations where 
children were found at meatpacking plants, cleaning up entrails 
on a midnight shift, forced labor. So, I want to mention that.
    And the biggest thing about the border, when you cause a 
crisis this big, when you make promises you can enter the 
country illegally, you will be released quickly because this 
Administration is not enforcing the law--the only thing they 
have done is send more resources to the border to process 
quicker and release quicker because they care about the optics. 
When you do that, more are going to come. I can tell you right 
now, in the last several months, there have been times where 
there are certain sectors on the Southwest border where 100 
percent of Border Patrol agents were pulled off patrol to come 
in and process. When you do that, the criminal cartels have a 
field day. They know that, on average, less than half of the 
Border Patrol is not on patrol, sometimes 70, 90 percent. So, 
what they do, they will send a big group of people to one area, 
200 family groups, knowing that whatever is left on the border 
is going to seize that opportunity for the humanitarian crisis 
because a lot of these people are in bad shape. Meanwhile, 
there are hundreds of miles of border empty.
    So, what they have done is overwhelmed the Patrol. So, I 
have had Border Patrol agents tell me, they have used the term, 
Broken Arrow. When they are off the line, they are frustrated 
because they do not know what is coming through the parts of 
the border where there are no agents because they are all busy 
making meals, making hospital transports, you know, making baby 
formula, taking care of these humanitarian issues. That is the 
issue. They have created the biggest national security crisis I 
have seen since 9/11, because we have got 1.9 million got-
aways.
    Everybody can talk about the data all you want; 1.9 million 
known people have entered this country. We do not know who they 
are, where they are from, or why they came here. But I will 
tell you this: they have arrested people from 181 different 
countries. Some of these countries sponsor terror. They have 
arrested over 300. If you do not think a single one of that the 
1.9 million did not come here to do us harm, then you are 
ignorant to the data.
    Chairman Comer. All right. Very good. Thank you. The Chair 
recognizes Ms. Norton from Washington, DC. for 5 minutes.
    Ms. Norton. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. First, let 
us be clear. The Trump Administration's immigration policies 
were not about border security. They were about xenophobia, 
demonization, and cruelty. In April 2018, the Trump Department 
of Justice adopted its infamous zero tolerance policy, in which 
more than 5,000 children were heartlessly separated from their 
parents upon crossing the Southern border. Studies have shown 
that this policy caused severe psychological trauma for 
children and parents who were subjected to it.
    The Trump Administration also worked relentlessly to 
undermine the Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals program, 
which provides protective status to individuals who came to the 
country as children. The Trump Administration's cruel assault 
on this program meant that people who have lived in the United 
States since childhood, gone to school in the U.S., and now 
work in the U.S., lived under the threat of deportation to 
countries that they have no recollection with or to accept them 
as the place as listed on their birth certificate. Then 
President Trump famously imposed a xenophobic travel ban on 
individuals from Muslim majority nations, which was challenged 
in the courts. Mr. Bier, what were the humanitarian 
consequences of these punitive and restrictive immigration 
policies?
    Mr. Bier. Well, first of all, let us talk about family 
separation for a moment. You know, the Administration claimed 
that the reason why we needed to separate kids from their 
parents was because they had zero tolerance, they were going to 
prosecute everyone, we are going to prosecute every law on the 
books, every immigration law, every drug law. That was a lie. 
They never prosecuted more than 32 percent of the people 
crossing the border. They turned down huge numbers of single 
adults to specifically target children so that they can take 
them away from the parents. It was an intentional action in 
order to cause the trauma in the children. They had no plan 
whatsoever to reunite the kids that were being taken from their 
parents.
    And that is the most appalling thing is that they knew that 
these kids were going to be lost in the system, and they had no 
intention of fixing it unless they got caught, and then 
ultimately, they did get caught by the courts that ruled the 
policy was unconstitutional and undermined the rule of law.
    The travel ban was equally abhorrent in separating families 
because it blocked even spouses of U.S. citizens. Spouses of 
legal permanent residents in the United States were separated 
from their families. Minor children were separated from their 
families simply because they were born in some country, not 
because they ever lived there even. Just because they are 
Iranian by birth meant they were banned from coming to this 
country. So, thousands of families separated by that abhorrent 
policy, which undermined one of the most basic premises of the 
Immigration and Nationality Act, which was reformed in 1965, to 
make sure that every country, every nationality, was treated 
equally. So, this last Administration really did do as much as 
any other to undermine the rule of law in the United States.
    Ms. Norton. And I just want the record to show that the 
Biden-Harris Administration has removed a higher percentage of 
people who crossed the Southern border illegally in the past 2 
years than the Trump Administration did during its last 2 
years, and, in fact, migrants were more likely to be released 
after an arrest along the Southern border under the Trump 
Administration. Mr. Bier, would you agree that the Biden-Harris 
Administration's efforts to reform our immigration system have 
been more effective than those of the Trump Administration, and 
if so, how so?
    Mr. Bier. Well, absolutely. Let us talk about Title 42, 
which banned asylum along the Southwest border. And the prior 
Administration knew that this was going to return people to 
Mexico where they would face criminal cartels, they would be 
trafficked, they would be raped, they would be subject to all 
sorts of depravity, and yet when Biden Administration got rid 
of that policy in May 2023, what happened was when you get rid 
of the policy that says you cannot apply for asylum, what 
happens? People try to evade the Border Patrol. They try to 
enter illegally. Getting rid of Title 42 actually helps secure 
the border, brought down the number of got-aways on a monthly 
basis by 50 percent because people went and sought out a Border 
Patrol agent and said, you know what, I am not going to put my 
life in the hands of a smuggler. I am going to put my hands in 
Border Patrol's hands. And so, this really did incentivize 
people to cooperate with the law.
    Talk about the parole programs, how effective those have 
been in getting people to apply to come legally, they just act 
like it is a change in category. They moved people from illegal 
to legal. That is totally not what it is like at all. Crossing 
the border illegally involves a risk to life. It involves 
Border Patrol resources. We just heard about how the Border 
Patrol was overwhelmed. Well, they want to make it even more 
overwhelmed by getting rid of these effective policies.
    Chairman Comer. All right. The time has expired. The Chair 
now recognizes the Chairman of Judiciary Committee, Mr. Jordan 
from Ohio.
    Mr. Jordan. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Homan, Mr. Bier 
said that everything is wonderful in the Biden Administration 
when it comes to the border. I think he said in his opening 
statement they are rebuilding the system. They are pulling it 
back from the brink. Do you agree with that assessment that Mr. 
Bier has of the Biden Administration?
    Mr. Homan. Absolutely not. They tore down the system.
    Mr. Jordan. Do you know who else disagrees with him? 
Democrat mayors, Democrat mayors in sanctuary cities. It is 
amazing to me that these sanctuary cities are sanctuary cities 
until it is actually time to provide sanctuary, but they 
disagree with him as well. So, you said earlier, both you and 
Mr. Edlow, you said this is by design. This is intentional. I 
think if I got it right, you said three main things: stop 
building the wall, get rid of Remain in Mexico, and release 
people when they get here, and that incentivizes people to come 
from, I think you said, 181 countries come to the border 
because they know there is no wall to get over, there is no 
Wait in Mexico, and they are going to get released to wherever 
they want to go. Is that right?
    Mr. Homan. Absolutely. The first few days in office, 
President Biden signed over 90 executive orders abolishing all 
the policies that were proven effective based on numbers. 
Anybody can go to CPB.gov and look at the numbers, but I want 
to address one thing real quick.
    Mr. Jordan. Sure.
    Mr. Homan. I am sick and tired of people in Congress 
talking about xenophobic and racist policy of the Trump 
Administration. We enforced the law. If I am a racist, what 
does that make Congress? They wrote the law. We are not making 
this up. We are enforcing laws enacted by Congress.
    Mr. Jordan. You did and--can I----
    Mr. Homan. And second of all, about the family separation 
thing----
    Mr. Jordan. Sure.
    Mr. Homan [continuing]. Because talking about tearing 
babies out of the mother's arms. I am the only one in this room 
who has been on that border. I am the only one that has been 
introduced to girls as young as 9 years old, been raped 
multiple times. You look in their eyes, and they are dead. 
Their souls had gone to Heaven. Every ounce of what they think 
is humanity is gone because they were raped numerous times by 
criminal cartel members.
    I stood in the back of a tractor trailer with 19 dead 
migrants at my feet, including a 5-year-old little boy. I have 
seen many dead bodies on the border. I have been down there 
numerous times this past year where Border Patrol was like 
giving CPR to an infant child 6 months old. I have seen Border 
Patrol agents who are heroes, patriots, who jump in the river 
with 60 pounds gear on, put their lives on the line, to save 
lives.
    What the whole thing about zero tolerance was to save 
lives. Maybe if we prosecuted people, they would stop bringing 
their children through that process. Maybe less people will 
die. Maybe less women will get sexually assaulted. That was the 
reason. It was not to tear babies out of mother's arms to prove 
a point and not reunite them to make it cruel. That was not the 
purpose of the law, and there was nobody that was not going to 
be reunited. We are just going to call this a terrible policy. 
That was a false statement. That is a lie. I was there. I was 
involved. Do not say that we had no intention to reunite these 
families. It is ridiculous.
    Mr. Jordan. Mr. Homan, which sort of raises, I think, the 
fundamental question, if this is intentional, if it is by 
design, why would they do it? What is the overall objective? 
That is what I cannot figure out is why would they do it?
    Mr. Homan. You know, I ask myself that question every 
morning. President Biden voted for border barriers. He voted 
for Secure Fence Act. Why did he stop building them then? 
Because, you know, because this is political. There is no other 
reason. I will ask anybody. What is the downside unless illegal 
immigration? What is the downside in having a secure border? 
What is the downside to less women getting sexually assaulted?
    Mr. Jordan. That is the point.
    Mr. Homan. What is the downside to less children getting 
drown in a river? What is the downside to less fentanyl coming 
into this country, killing thousands of Americans? What is the 
downside to less sex trafficking of women and children? What is 
the downside on billions of dollars not being made by the 
cartels?
    Mr. Jordan. I ask myself the same question. I do not 
understand it.
    Mr. Homan. They obviously see some sort of political 
futures and political thing that is going to benefit them in 
the future. People will say, well, maybe they are Democratic 
voters. Maybe, maybe not, but I know one thing. President Biden 
also overturned the Trump Census rule, which means these people 
in sanctuary cities will be counted in the next Census. What 
does that mean? It means seats in the House.
    Mr. Jordan. Yes.
    Mr. Homan. So, you know, I do not know.
    Mr. Jordan. You say you think it is political?
    Mr. Homan. I do not know why any----
    Mr. Jordan. I know what Democrats have said. They have said 
we should abolish ICE. They have said we should abolish DHS. 
They have said that they are for non-citizens being able to 
vote. I mean, I do not know if that is just where the left is, 
but that, to me, is the fundamental question. That is a 
question I think Americans are asking. I get it all the time. 
Why would they allow this kind of situation happen? Because the 
way I figure it, we are on pace to hit 12 million migrants 
coming in the country in the Biden Administration. That is the 
magnitude of this phenomenon, 12 million. That is equivalent to 
the entire population of our state, state of Ohio, seventh 
largest state. That is huge, that has never happened, and 
certainly, I mean, that is an unbelievable number. That is what 
we are on pace to do. It is being done intentionally. I think 
the American people would like know why. I think, more 
importantly, the American people like it to stop.
    Finally, I will just ask this question. Well, I will let 
you and Mr. Edlow respond to that.
    Mr. Edlow. Well, bottom line is, while we are sitting 
arguing this thing, while we are sitting here talking today in 
this beautiful room, women are being sexually assaulted making 
this journey. A child is going to die today. Over 300 people 
are going to die from fentanyl poisoning that is coming across 
the open border. When you take the vast majority of Border 
Patrols agents off patrol, alter national security duties, bad 
things happen. That is when the criminals come across. Why 
didn't 1.9 million people take advantage of the free giveaway? 
Why not turn yourselves in, get processed, get transported to a 
city of your choice, get work authorization, get a hotel room, 
get three meals a day? Why did 1.9 million people said, no, I 
want to get away. Why? Because they did not want to be vetted. 
They didn't want to be fingerprinted. That has just scared the 
hell out everybody. I have done this for 34 years. I have never 
been more concerned about the safety and security of this 
country right now, as I am right now because of 1.9 million 
got-aways. That scares the hell out of me.
    Chairman Comer. OK. Thank you very much. The Chair now 
recognizes, Ms. Ocasio-Cortez, from New York City.
    Ms. Ocasio-Cortez. Thank you, Mr. Chair. I appreciate it.
    You know, there has been this question about why would we 
want to make documented legal pathways to immigration more 
accessible in this country. It must be due to some political 
motivation. It must be even treasonous to think that expanded 
and more orderly pathways to citizenship would be even wanted, 
but let us talk about it. Mr. Bier, you noted in your opening, 
and then several times throughout this hearing, that U.S. job 
openings are at record highs, correct?
    Mr. Bier. That is right.
    Ms. Ocasio-Cortez. And have we been able to have a 
consistent level of, among our current citizenship, to be able 
to fill those job openings?
    Mr. Bier. Oh, absolutely not. U.S. population growth right 
now is at the lowest in its entire history.
    Ms. Ocasio-Cortez. Yes, U.S. population growth is at the 
lowest in our entire history. And we have seen comparatively, 
when other countries in similar circumstances, low population 
growth, but also when they pass very anti-immigrant or just 
make it very difficult to welcome immigrants legally, what do 
we see in their economic performance comparative to the United 
States when the United States enacts proper and open 
immigration policy?
    Mr. Bier. Well, we have seen this in a number of countries. 
You know, you take Japan, for example. For many years, they had 
a completely closed society. They ended up with a huge 
population of elderly people with no one to care for them, no 
one to pay into those systems, and now they are finally opening 
up because they are recognizing the crisis that it has created 
by keeping people out and preventing people from contributing.
    Ms. Ocasio-Cortez. Thank you. Yes. Thank you so much, and 
it shows that when that countries that adopt anti-immigrant 
policies invariably end up, especially with the demographic 
trends that the United States has, end up in economic 
stagnation. In fact, what we are actually seeing is that this 
is starting to precipitate here in the United States.
    I would like to submit this article from PBS NewsHour to 
the record, Mr. Chair.
    Ms. Ocasio-Cortez. Thank you. Now, what we have here is 
that there are even some lawmakers in states like Wisconsin, 
Ohio, and Iowa, that are proposing the loosening of child labor 
laws in their state because they have so many jobs that are 
left unfulfilled. We have seen teenagers dying in states like 
Wisconsin, Missouri, and Michigan because so many jobs are 
going unfilled, and many of these Republican legislatures would 
rather roll back child labor laws and put 11-and 13-year-olds 
back in the workplace than allow immigrants into their 
community and do what they have always done.
    Mr. Bier, let us say 50 years ago, would you say that it 
would be easier--that the United States perhaps had an easier 
immigration, more orderly immigration, perhaps an easier 
immigration policy then than, say, now?
    Mr. Bier. No, I do not think it was any easier back then. 
It was pretty much the same. We had pretty much stagnation for 
a century when it comes to legal immigration policy in the 
United States.
    Ms. Ocasio-Cortez. So, we have had stagnation. When we go 
back, maybe a hundred years, what would you say?
    Mr. Bier. Look, before the Immigration Act of 1924, the 
United States had a process whereby if you are not a criminal, 
you are not a public charge, you could come into the United 
States and work and live indefinitely. Anyone in the world 
could come to our country, except for the Chinese.
    Ms. Ocasio-Cortez. Yes.
    Mr. Bier. But, for the most part, anyone in the world could 
come.
    Ms. Ocasio-Cortez. And so that was the standing immigration 
policy about 100 years ago, meaning that unless you are an 
African-American member of this body, unless you are a 
descendant from Puerto Rico, Guam, or a U.S. territory, 
virtually every single Member of this Committee is here today 
as a result of, and thanks to, more open U.S. immigration 
policies, and the idea of slamming the door when we desperately 
need these migrants, when we desperately need it, and what we 
need is an orderly process. It is not that we do not need or 
want folks to come. It is that we actually have to make it 
easier for these individuals to participate in our economy, get 
a job, support themselves, and live the American Dream.
    And what this conversation is about is about defending the 
American Dream. We cannot allow that to change, and that is why 
Democrats in Congress are using immigration policy and then 
advocating for immigration policy that can be documented, that 
people can get a job, put a shirt on their back, support their 
kids without being a public charge and defend the very soul of 
what it means to be an American. And with that, I yield back.
    Chairman Comer. The Chair now recognizes Ms. Foxx from 
North Carolina.
    Ms. Foxx. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I want to thank our 
witnesses for being here today.
    You know, we all want people who come here legally, and, 
yes, we are descendants of legal immigrants. But my colleagues 
on the other side of the aisle are making an argument that is 
often blamed on Republicans saying that we want to bring people 
here, so we have cheap labor. That argument just made is that 
that is what we need to do, is bring people here for cheap 
labor.
    I appreciate the comments that have been made by my 
colleagues before me. As they have said, the Biden 
Administration has consistently shown a lack of leadership and 
unwillingness to secure our Southern border. It is a 
dereliction of duty. In spite of this, many in the public 
sphere claim Congress must pass new laws or adopt a border deal 
in order to secure the border. But it is difficult to 
comprehend this position when we can look at the Trump 
Administration's handling at the border and the success 
achieved regarding border security, while using the same 
authorities available to the Biden Administration today.
    So, Mr. Homan, why did the Trump Administration not see 
such high numbers of illegal aliens pouring across the Southern 
border?
    Mr. Homan. Well, there are many reasons. First of all, the 
Remain in Mexico program was a game changer. They could still 
claim asylum. President Trump had the same data points I had, 
that most people will fail, and those people that fail get 
amnesty.
    Ms. Foxx. And that was in existence when President Biden 
took office.
    Mr. Homan. Yes, as a matter of fact, the highest courts in 
the land said it was a legal process, but he killed it anyways.
    Ms. Foxx. Correct.
    Mr. Homan. But the Remain in Mexico program plus the Third 
Safe Country Agreements we had with Guatemala, El Salvador, and 
Honduras, a game changer that they actually believe if you are 
really escaping fear and persecution of Honduras and you get to 
Mexico, have you really not escaped that fear and persecution 
from home government? So, you would be claiming asylum in the 
first free country you come to. Those two policies were a game 
changer and moved the numbers down, significantly down.
    Ms. Foxx. So, what you are saying is that the Biden 
Administration is not using all of the legal authorities and 
tools available to enforce our existing immigration laws and 
stop illegal aliens from coming into the country. We already 
have the tools there. We do not need new legislation.
    Mr. Homan. This is not a resource issue. This is not ``we 
need more border security,'' ''we need more money.'' This is a 
policy issue. Change the policies, and you can secure the 
border. We have proven that. You know, no one in this table is 
anti-immigrant. We are anti-illegal immigration. Because of the 
investigations I have conducted in 34 years, if I share with 
people in this room the terrible things I have seen that kept 
me up at night, you would agree with me that a secure border 
saves lives.
    Ms. Foxx. Thank you. Mr. Edlow, do you have anything you 
would like to add to the comments Mr. Homan has made in 
conjunction with why we do not need additional laws and what we 
can do to make sure that the laws that exist are enforced?
    Mr. Edlow. As Mr. Homan said, we, during the previous 
Administration used everything that was available, whether it 
be the Remain in Mexico program, whether it be the asylum 
cooperative agreements with Central American partners, or other 
programs that allowed the U.S. to quickly intake, process in 
for expedited removal, individuals from certain countries, make 
sure that they had all due process within just a matter of 
days, and were in front of an immigration judge within a matter 
of days. What I find kind of amusing is that the circumventing 
lawful processes or lawful pathways Notice of Proposed 
Rulemaking from the Biden Administration noted that there were 
no alternatives available to what they were proposing, and they 
noted that alternatives such as an asylum cooperative agreement 
or Remain in Mexico were not viable options because there was 
no time to negotiate them. Why I find that amusing is, the 
Trump Administration did negotiate them. They were working, and 
the Biden Administration pulled them back, ended them, 
destroyed them, and now they are saying, well, we do not have 
any alternatives because we cannot do that. It is just not the 
way it needs to be.
    But, ma'am, if I may just also add, I am not here today to 
say that we do not want to have lawful pathways for legal 
immigration. We absolutely do. What I am concerned about today 
is the fact that the pathways that have been created via 
parole, via some of the other regulations that we are talking 
about are simply unlawful. The parole programs are not allowed 
pursuant to existing law. If the law is changed, then I would 
not be here talking about it.
    Ms. Foxx. Yes. The Biden Administration has been trying to 
be all three branches of government. It is the executive 
branch, but it is trying to take over, through lack of 
enforcement of the laws, but through regulation to be the 
legislative branch and the judicial branch. Thank you, Mr. 
Chairman. I yield back.
    Chairman Comer. Thank you, gentlelady from North Carolina. 
The Chair recognizes Ms. Brown from Ohio.
    Ms. Brown. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Good morning, Mr. 
Homan. We actually agree on a couple of things, and that is 
there is zero comparison between the Trump and Biden 
Administration. And, yes, the Congress, this country, and the 
Constitution have a history of racism, and we are dealing with 
the ramifications of that to this day. Need I remind you of 
Article I, Section 2 of the Constitution that states people who 
looked like me were considered three-fourths of a free 
individual for determining congressional representation, or 
maybe I should remind you of the Civil War, which I know some 
folks on the other side of the aisle want to say it was about 
states' rights, but it was ultimately about slavery. And while 
some want to paint slavery as a work force development or job 
training program of sorts that somehow benefited black people, 
that is not the case. So, for the people who were not packed up 
on ships and would like to get to this country legally through 
immigration, let us talk about that.
    The immigration system President Biden inherited has been 
broken for a very long time. In the words of President Biden, 
our problems at the border did not arise overnight, and they 
are not going to be solved overnight. Extreme Republicans have 
a choice. They can keep using immigration to try to score 
political points, or they can help solve the problem. With 
congressional Republicans unwilling to come to the table and 
have meaningful conversations about solutions, President Biden 
has limited options to broadly address concerns in the 
immigration system. At every turn, my colleagues on the other 
side of the aisle have rejected President Biden's funding 
authorization and supplemental requests to confront our 
immigration challenges.
    The Biden-Harris Administration requested $3.5 billion to 
secure the Southern border with additional holding facilities 
and funding for 2,000 new asylum officers. That was rejected. 
On day one, the Biden-Harris Administration sent Congress 
comprehensive immigration reform legislation to constrain 
illegal immigration, strengthen and support legal immigration, 
protect our Dreamers and seasonal workers, and so much more. 
That was rejected, too. And now the Biden-Harris Administration 
is asking for congressional action to defend our law 
enforcement and address illegal crossings at the Southern 
border through President Biden's supplemental national security 
funding requests. Unfortunately, House Republican leadership 
are rejecting the offer negotiated by President Biden, a 
bipartisan coalition of senators outright, despite not even 
having all the details. But even without having meaningful 
action by House Republicans, President Biden has taken a 
strong, substantial, significant steps to curb illegal 
immigration and address problems at the Southern border.
    So, Mr. Bier, what specifically will President Biden's 
supplemental funding requests do to stop the flow of fentanyl 
into the U.S. and combat human trafficking?
    Mr. Bier. Look, what they are proposing is to put more 
resources into our ports of entry, and really, that is where 
you see fentanyl coming into the country. More than 90 percent 
is seized at ports of entry. They say, well, that is because it 
is all magically getting by the Border Patrol agents. Well, 
Border Patrol agents arrest millions of people. We have a huge 
sample size to draw from to draw conclusions about who is 
coming between ports of entry, and they are not bringing 
fentanyl. They are not bringing drugs there. They are coming 
through ports of entry, and we know this, and they are hiring 
American citizens to do it because it is very easy to conceal 
fentanyl in legal luggage and legal baggage and legal travel, 
and so it is a whole misdirection to focus on.
    Look, I would want Border Patrol to be completely freed up, 
to scan every nook and cranny for people smuggling fentanyl if 
we let people come into this country legally. That would be a 
great thing for the Border Patrol, and it would be great thing 
for the country, too.
    Ms. Brown. Thank you. And, Mr. Bier, in your testimony, you 
talked about efforts to rebuild a functioning system when it 
comes to our country's immigration policies. Can you speak to 
how the Biden Administration has been supporting these 
policies?
    Mr. Bier. Look, the Biden Administration has done more than 
any other administration in our history to try to think 
creatively about how to address illegal immigration through 
lawful channels. Congress gave them the parole authority. They 
are using parole authority legally on a case-by-case basis to 
allow people to apply to enter this country legally, whether it 
is at ports of entry where they are mandated by Congress to 
deal with asylum seekers at ports of entry. They are doing it 
through a CBP One app--that is a great process--as well as 
through the parole sponsorship programs where we, Americans, 
get to sponsor someone to come and make sure that they are 
handled in a legal and orderly way.
    Ms. Brown. Thank you. My time has expired.
    Chairman Comer. The gentlelady yields. The Chair recognizes 
the leader on this issue, Mr. Biggs from Arizona.
    Mr. Biggs. Thanks, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Bier, how many 
individuals on the terrorist security dataset have actually 
entered the United States since President Biden took office?
    Mr. Bier. A couple of hundred.
    Mr. Biggs. No, no, no. No. That is the number that we have 
actually interdicted. How many have come in? Do you know? You 
do not know, do you? Do you?
    Mr. Bier. I know how many people Border Patrol has 
arrested.
    Mr. Biggs. You do not know how many have entered, though, 
do you? Come on, let us be honest. I do not know. You do not 
know.
    Mr. Bier. I do not know.
    Mr. Biggs. And you got about 1.9 million, something like 
that, in known and unknown got-aways?
    Mr. Bier. Yes. I want Border Patrol----
    Mr. Biggs. You do not know----
    Mr. Bier [continuing]. To go after terrorists.
    Mr. Biggs. You do not know how many have come in.
    Mr. Bier. If we let people come into this country legally.
    Mr. Biggs. Answer the question, Mr. Bier.
    Mr. Bier. I am answering the question.
    Mr. Biggs. No, you are not.
    Mr. Bier. If people came into this country legally----
    Mr. Biggs. I am reclaiming the time.
    Mr. Bier [continuing]. We would have a much better, more 
secure border.
    Mr. Biggs. Mr. Bier, you do not know, do you?
    Mr. Bier. I already answered the question.
    Mr. Biggs. Well, thank you. That was generous of you. I 
appreciate that. Have you ever been to the border and watched 
the current process that is gone through to issue a parole 
status to an illegal immigrant?
    Mr. Bier. I have seen it on video, but no, I have not----
    Mr. Biggs. Not been down there, have you?
    Mr. Bier. I have not personally witnessed it.
    Mr. Biggs. No, you have not. Of course not. Of course, you 
have not, but you are going to come here and testify that it is 
done on a case-by-case basis. You do not know jack squat about 
it. You have not been down there. You have not been down there.
    Mr. Bier. It is done on a case-by-case basis.
    Mr. Biggs. So, Mr. Homan, when we hear of the cruelty of 
separation of families, is it cruel to lose contact or 
communication or the known whereabouts of 100,000 children, who 
came into the country unaccompanied, by ORR?
    Mr. Homan. Absolutely. We do not know where these children 
are, or if are they are safe. We know that some have been into 
forced labor. We know some of you have been forced into sex 
slavery. So, we know what has happened to some of them. So, 
absolutely, it is cruel.
    Mr. Biggs. Is it cruel to place some of those children with 
people who turn out to be pedophiles or literally place dozens 
of people with the same individual, which ORR under Biden has 
done?
    Mr. Homan. We know there are single males that have been 
given several female youths.
    Mr. Biggs. Let us go back to parole. If you get parole, do 
you get legal work status for 2 years?
    Mr. Homan. Yes, you can get work status, but two things we 
got fixed that said that was wrong. First of all, most of the 
fentanyl does not come through the port of entry.
    Mr. Biggs. I will get to that. Let us get to the parole 
question.
    Mr. Homan. Parole. Yes. When you get parole, you get work 
authorization, yes.
    Mr. Biggs. For how long do you to work, Mr. Edlow?
    Mr. Edlow. Congressman, I believe it is up to 2 years.
    Mr. Biggs. How many people in the illegal population that 
has been released in the country, that have been paroled into 
the country, are currently in the work force and actually 
working jobs? Does anybody even know that?
    [No response.]
    Mr. Biggs. Nobody knows that? You know why? Because we do 
not keep contact with those people. We have no idea where they 
went. We have taken them and distributed them throughout the 
country. We do not know where they are, what they are doing. So 
last year, we had 888,000 people who were naturalized in our 
legal process. In 2020, it was 625,000, but you also granted 
440,000 lawful worker status, permanent residency status.
    So, I guess--there is so much to talk about here, but let 
us talk about fentanyl. I am really surprised because, Mr. 
Bier, I read your statement, you rely on data so much. I am 
actually surprised that you are making the outrageous claim 
that 90 percent of the fentanyl comes through the port of 
entry. That is not true. Ninety percent that we interdict is at 
a port of entry. But if you have never been down to the border, 
which I do not think you have, but if you have ever been down 
to the border and literally driven for 30 miles and you do not 
even see a CBP agent. Why? Because they are processing people, 
and you know the number of people that are coming across that 
do not want to get caught.
    You have got to understand, and I think Mr. Homan will back 
me up on this, that between the ports of entry is where the 
people are bringing the fentanyl in. Is that not true, Mr. 
Homan?
    Mr. Homan. I spent 3 decades investigating criminal cartels 
who smuggle narcotics into United States. They will use a route 
of least resistance. Will they go through a port of entry, when 
every vehicle is stopped, every driver spoken to, and then 
based on the CBP enforcement data base, which I cannot discuss, 
when they put the license plate number in, it may say this is 
someone you want in the secondary, and plus responses from the 
driver. Every vehicle is stopped between the ports of entry. 
When 70 to 90 percent of the agents are off the line and in 
several instances, nobody is on the line, that is when the 
criminal cartels are going to move the fentanyl. Now, if you 
look at fentanyl seized by the Border Patrol and by maritime, 
by the Coast Guard, extremely high numbers. It is not a 
coincidence. When you have 70 to 90 percent of agents off the 
line, you have got record fentanyl overdose deaths. It does not 
take a genius to figure out where it is coming.
    Mr. Biggs. I yield.
    Mr. Raskin. Mr. Chairman, I would like to introduce 
unanimous consent request for two articles: one ABC News, one 
Slate, showing the Trump Administration had no intention to 
reunify separated families.
    Chairman Comer. Without objection, so ordered.
    Chairman Comer. The Chair recognizes Ms. Stansbury from New 
Mexico for 5 minutes.
    Ms. Stansbury. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I want to start 
today by sharing this image behind me.
    [Chart]
    Ms. Stansbury. I hesitated, but I think it is important 
that the American people understand what we are talking about 
here, and I think it is really important that we remember what 
happened in 2017 when the zero-tolerance policy went into 
effect. There were literally thousands of children from all 
over the world who were separated from their parents, and they 
were placed in cages. Many of those families have never been 
reunited to this day. There are hundreds of families that have 
not found their children because of this policy. Can you 
imagine traveling thousands of miles across the continent and 
being separated from your child? I think it is unimaginable for 
most Americans.
    And I think it is political theater that we are seeing in 
this Committee room, that we are seeing in the halls of 
Congress right now to not humanize the reality of what we are 
actually talking about. And the policies that the GOP is 
putting forward right now, right here in this House, are not 
about solving the immigration challenges that we are facing. 
They are not about solving the fentanyl crisis. They are not 
about solving the asylum problems and addressing the 
institutional deficiencies that they have. They are about 
cruelty. They are not about actually addressing the problems on 
the ground, and we know that because right now, the Senate has 
been trying to engage in a bipartisan negotiation over border 
policies with the Administration. And just this week, Speaker 
Johnson said, just days ago, that he would not negotiate on a 
bipartisan immigration deal, but instead, he would continue to 
advocate for House Bill 2, which is the policy priorities that 
have been put forward by Members of this Committee on the GOP 
side and the leadership. And what we know about what is in 
House Bill 2 is that it is not designed to actually solve the 
problem on the ground.
    Yes, we are seeing a record number of people arriving on 
the Southern border right now. And like other great migrations 
in American history, there are thousands of people coming to 
the United States right now seeking refuge, whether that is 
from warfare, violence, economic crisis, natural disasters, 
personal crises. That is why, as was stated, many of our 
ancestors came here. My own ancestors came at the height of the 
great famines in Ireland. And luckily for my family and for me 
to be able to sit here today, they were able to become a part 
of this society. That is why we are seeing a record number of 
people arriving on our border. These are people who are fleeing 
crisis in their country.
    But what we know is that House Bill 2 is not designed to 
actually solve that problem. In fact, much of it is rooted in 
the Trump Administration's policies that they put forward 
during their Administration, including this. I want to know, 
does any American want to see children in cages again? I do not 
think they do. I think what Americans want is real solutions. 
They want to see how we are going to solve these problems, and 
I think that is why I am particularly disturbed that the 
Majority on this Committee, who interviewed all nine chiefs of 
the Border Patrol along all nine sectors of the border, will 
not release the transcripts of what those agents said because, 
with all due respect, what those agents told us in those 
transcribed interviews, is it is a resource problem.
    In fact, the only thing that every single Border Patrol 
agent asked for was more resources, more staffing, more 
technology, more support, more ability to actually address the 
crisis that they are seeing. That is what every single Border 
Patrol agent chief told this Committee, and the reason why the 
Republicans will not release the actual transcripts is, 
instead, they wanted to cherry pick a few quotes that prove 
their point to try to put forward these cruel policies that 
would put children back in cages--because it is a resources 
problem.
    And also, with all due respect, because I was just briefed 
by the field agents, by the FBI, about where the fentanyl is 
coming into our communities, literally just days ago before the 
holidays, and most of the fentanyl that is coming into our 
communities is coming in through legal ports of entry, being 
smuggled in not by immigrants seeking asylum, but by drug 
smugglers that are being paid by cartels to bring those drugs 
into our community where they are killing members of our 
community. So, let us be accurate. Americans want bipartisan 
immigration reform. They do not want children in cages. With 
that, I yield back.
    Mr. Palmer. [Presiding.] The Chair now recognizes the 
gentlewoman from Florida, Mrs. Luna, for 5 minutes for her 
questions.
    Mrs. Luna. Thank you. Ladies and gentlemen, what we are 
seeing play out right now is massive propaganda. If I can just 
read these deportation numbers to you roughly. During the 
Obama-Biden Administration, with no resistance, there were over 
5.2 million people deported, and under Trump, with heavy 
resistance, not just from members of our own party, this House, 
but also the media, he roughly deported about 2 million illegal 
immigrants. And now with the Biden-Harris Administration, we 
have a massive open border crisis, which mind you, they ran on 
that entire platform in 2020. But I do not hear calls about 
xenophobia or racism, not from the party that wants to blanket 
label Republicans that do embrace family separation for the 
pure fact that we do not want kids put into the hands of 
traffickers. No, they are completely silent on that because of 
their allegiance to Biden.
    According to some members of their own party, though, if we 
do not allow illegals, we will have vegetables rot in the 
fields. If I can please have the oversight staff, please play 
the first video. I can record the audio here. Hold on.
    [Video shown.]
    Mrs. Luna. Mr. Homan, according to the Oxford Dictionary 
definition of ``prejudice,'' a preconceived notion or opinion 
that is not based on reason or actual experience, would you 
consider that to be a prejudiced statement? Can you say that 
louder?
    Mr. Homan. Yes.
    Mrs. Luna. As you can see, my colleague is not the only 
member of the Democrat party that has actually made these 
egregious statements, but please save me the virtue signaling 
when you are completely silent on that commentary. If the staff 
can please play the second video.
    [Video shown.]
    Mrs. Luna. Going back to a statement that Mr. Bier had 
made, you talk about intentional trauma and that the Trump 
Administration caused intentional trauma by separating these 
children from their ``parents.'' The fact is, is that, one, you 
do not know if these people are--why are you laughing? Mr. 
Bier, why are you laughing?
    Mr. Bier. Because you said ``parents'' as if they were not 
really their parents.
    Mrs. Luna. You have no idea. Not only have you not been to 
the border----
    Mr. Bier. I do have an idea. I do have. I have met with----
    Mrs. Luna. Hold on. I am not done. You have no idea if 
these people are their intentional parents or not.
    Mr. Bier. Oh, yes.
    Mrs. Luna. You have no idea. That is exactly why we----
    Mr. Bier. We do. We do.
    Mrs. Luna. Really, are you psychic?
    Mr. Bier. No. We do.
    Mrs. Luna. Have you won the lotto, Mr. Bier?
    Mr. Bier. No.
    Mrs. Luna. I do not think you have.
    Mr. Bier. Read the Office of the Inspector General----
    Mrs. Luna. No, I reclaim my time.
    Mr. Bier [continuing]. Report on family separation.
    Mrs. Luna. You have no idea what you are doing, and you are 
hurting these children. The reason why we want family 
separation until we can confirm if they are the actual----
    Mr. Bier. You want family separation?
    Mrs. Luna [continuing]. Biological parents is because these 
kids are being trafficked, and absolutely I do.
    Mr. Bier. As a father, that is frightening.
    Mrs. Luna. Excuse me. I am a mother. We can go back and 
forth, but I am done talking to you because what you did was 
destructive. Now, going back to what I just showed you right 
there, you have no idea if that person or that individual is 
that parent. Everything that we have just shown you, in this 
country right now--if you have Netflix, which I am assuming you 
do, there is a documentary called ``Trafficked in America.'' 
There is a massive industry in the big ag industry that 
traffics these kids. They end up on farms. So, to sit there and 
say that that policy does not work, you are wrong.
    Now, I have been covering the last, I guess, the last 5 
years or so this entire border debacle, and what I can tell you 
is if this Administration truly cared about immigrants, they 
would not be having the policies in place that they currently 
have. It is hurting people. An open border hurts people on both 
sides. Chairman, I yield my time.
    Mr. Palmer. The gentlelady yields.
    Mr. Raskin. Mr. Chair, I was just wondering if he could 
have the chance to respond since he was addressed, and I think 
he was cutoff. Could we give Mr. Bier the chance to respond to 
the questions?
    Mr. Palmer. One of your colleagues can ask him the question 
if they would like, but we are going to move on.
    Mr. Raskin. OK.
    Mr. Palmer. I now recognize the gentleman, Mr. Garcia, for 
5 minutes for his questions.
    Mr. Garcia. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you to our 
witnesses that are here today, and I obviously am hearing a lot 
of conversation that we hear over and over again at these many 
border hearings, not just here, but in Homeland Security.
    I want to remind everyone that just this week we saw the 
Republican Party nominate an insurrectionist, an indicted 
criminal, and a grifter who has accepted millions of dollars 
from foreign governments as their nominee for President, and 
that nomination rolls on. Now as an immigrant myself, what has 
been the most offensive to me about Donald Trump is his 
disgusting rhetoric about immigrants. The man who entered 
politics by calling Mexicans rapists and trying to ban Muslims 
from entering this country is still spreading hatred today.
    Donald Trump has said that immigrants ``are poisoning the 
blood of our country,'' and I think it is important to remind 
ourselves of how horrific those words are. Now, this kind of 
rhetoric we hear all the time from Donald Trump, which we know 
also relates to something that Hitler once said, and our 
extremists here in Congress continue to parrot Donald Trump and 
his attacks on migrants and immigrants. We all want an orderly 
and safe border, but the idea here that we can have a serious 
conversation about the border is insane.
    Now, Mr. Bier, it is good to see you again, and I want to 
thank you for your testimony, and if you do not mind, I would 
like to get your thoughts on some potential border solutions 
that we have actually heard a few times.
    [Chart]
    Mr. Garcia. Here I have a poster, and if you see it, it has 
got these alligators on a moat, and they are at the border and 
this one has got a little hat. Would you think it would be a 
good idea to build a water-filled trench filled with alligators 
along the border?
    Mr. Bier. That would be a misuse of taxpayer dollars and 
extremely inhumane.
    Mr. Garcia. So, you think it would be inhumane to build a 
moat, put alligators in them along the border. That would not 
be a good idea.
    Mr. Bier. No.
    Mr. Garcia. What if we instead ordered soldiers to shoot 
migrants in the legs and stop them from coming to the U.S.? 
Would that be a good idea?
    Mr. Bier. No, that would be attempted murder.
    Mr. Garcia. What about the wall that Trump, of course, was 
building? Would it be better instead if we electrified it and 
put spikes at the top of the wall?
    Mr. Bier. That would dramatically increase the cost that 
Border Patrol would incur. We have already seen how Border 
Patrol's wall has caused so many more injuries. They have taken 
millions of dollars to care for the people who have suffered 
injuries falling from that wall.
    Mr. Garcia. And, Mr. Bier, what if instead we launched 
military strikes against targets in Northern Mexico? Would that 
make the border, you think, more or less secure?
    Mr. Bier. It would make it less secure. Creating a crisis 
in Mexico would probably be the best thing you could do to 
increase illegal immigration.
    Mr. Garcia. I only ask you all these questions because 
these are all proposals by the Republican frontrunner for the 
nomination, Donald Trump, former President Donald Trump. Every 
single one of these ideas--alligator moats, missiles into 
Mexico, shooting migrants in the legs, putting spikes on top of 
the wall--these are all the ideas on how to make our border 
system and our immigration system more fair, according to 
Donald Trump. So, obviously Donald Trump has no idea what he is 
talking about, and it is over and over we are seeing these 
horrific ideas. Now, Mr. Bier, do you think it is even possible 
to secure the border through force or deterrence alone as some 
of my colleagues are suggesting?
    Mr. Bier. No, absolutely not. We have had an experiment 
with this for the last 50 years. We have had very high levels 
of illegal immigration punctuated by periods of job depression 
in the United States. Economic downturns do help secure the 
border. They talked about the most secure border in 45 years. 
April 2020 is not a good sample size. That is not a great way 
to secure the border to just destroy the U.S. economy.
    Mr. Garcia. That is exactly right, Mr. Bier, and a lot of 
people want to come to the U.S. through legal pathways. I am an 
immigrant myself. I came here as a young child, became a 
citizen in my early 20's. It is hard to become a U.S. citizen.
    [Chart]
    Mr. Garcia. This is one of my favorite graphs here. This 
actually shows you our current immigration system, what the 
current legal pathway system looks like. Does this seem like an 
easy immigration system we have for someone to actually 
navigate through?
    Mr. Bier. No. Less than three percent of people who attempt 
that process get through it every year.
    Mr. Garcia. So, this system, you would say, I mean, just 
looking at it, looks rather complex, is probably not easy to 
navigate for someone seeking legal asylum or a process here. Is 
that correct?
    Mr. Bier. Absolutely. Almost everyone needs an attorney in 
order to navigate this type of process.
    Mr. Garcia. And I will tell you that as someone that tried 
to navigate this system back here, being cheated on by numerous 
attorneys, cheated my family, stole money, woke up at 4 in the 
morning to get in lines that we were never seen at different 
offices. We have not had a comprehensive immigration reform in 
this country in 30-plus years. It has been a failure of this 
Congress, and if the Republicans really wanted solutions, they 
would actually work on fixing this system here versus the 
attacks on immigrants and Donald Trump's insane ideas. With 
that, I yield back. Thank you.
    Mr. Palmer. The gentleman yields. The Chair now recognizes 
the gentleman from Missouri, Mr. Burlison, for 5 minutes for 
his questions.
    Mr. Burlison. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Before I get to my 
questions, I have a short video that I would like to play, if 
we could get that up.
    [Video shown.]
    Mr. Burlison. You know, as we saw in the video, the Biden 
Administration is repeatedly claiming that the Southern border 
policies are safe, orderly, and humane. They repeatedly claim 
that the border is closed and that the border is secure. They 
have made these claims hundreds of times in the public since 
coming into office. Mr. Homan, do you agree with these claims 
that the border is closed?
    Mr. Homan. Of course not. We have got 1.9 million known 
got-aways caught on video, drone traffic, sensor traffic. Who 
knows how many unknown got-aways we have where they crossed the 
border where there is no technology. I have been on the border 
a dozen times in the last year. I have seen 100 percent of 
agents pulled off the line to process. How is that a secure 
border?
    And a couple of things I need to straighten real quick, 
things that were said that were not accurate. The cages were 
built under President Obama. I was there. Me and Jeh Johnson 
went to that facility in South Texas where the cages--they want 
them called cages, we will call them cages--but they are chain 
link dividers keeping children away from unrelated adults. So, 
they were built under Obama, and matter of fact, I saw an image 
just a couple weeks ago of a Border Patrol station where they 
are moving people outside the station because it is overcrowded 
into a big cage, so it is still being used.
    Second of all, the comment that the chief says it is a 
resource issue. Of course, it is a resource issue. They are 
overwhelmed. Every agent is off the line. The way you fix a 
resource issue is change the policies. We did not have one more 
Border Patrol agents on the line under Trump. We did not have 
one more immigration judges under Trump. We did it by policy. 
So, there would not be a resource issue, if you fix the 
policies.
    Mr. Burlison. Now, something that was said in the video was 
a clip from early on where the Secretary Mayorkas made the 
comment, ``We are not saying don't come. We are saying don't 
come now.'' What are your thoughts about that statement?
    Mr. Homan. It does not matter what he says. The cartels are 
selling the actions of the Administration. Just turn on the TV 
and watch how these people just come across the line. Border 
Patrol sits there and watches them. They will process them. 
They have got pictures of them getting on buses and being flown 
all over the country. There is a reason why Democrat mayors and 
Democrat Governors are speaking up. The cartels are selling the 
very fact you are going to get processed quickly, you are going 
to be released quickly, you will get a work authorization.
    And guess what? Secretary Mayorkas has said to ICE, being 
in the country illegally on its own is not enough for ICE to 
make an arrest. Last year they removed 142,000 in the midst of 
millions of people coming across. You know what? Only 5 
percent--5 percent--of the 142,000 were non-criminal border 
entry, which means the 9 out of 10 losing their case, no one is 
being removed. Until they see flights going south, they are 
going to keep coming.
    Mr. Burlison. In fact, if I recall, Mr. Homan, when Trump 
took office, there was an effort by Congress to throttle or to 
restrict additional funding to secure the border, but yet the 
numbers decreased while Trump was in office. So, what was the 
reason for that decrease?
    Mr. Homan. Remain in Mexico was a game changer. People 
could still claim asylum while they wait in Mexico. If they are 
really escaping fear and persecution and death, they can wait 
in Mexico for their hearing. The second thing was a Third Safe 
Country Agreement where Guatemala, Honduras, and El Salvador 
agreed, along with Mexico, that if you really escape in fear 
and persecution from your country, let us say it is El 
Salvador, and you get to Mexico, have you not escaped that 
fear?
    Mr. Burlison. You know, we have talked about the 
motivation, and so I want to read a quote that has come to 
light recently that Ms. Clark, who is a colleague of ours, 
said: ``When I hear colleagues talking about the doors of the 
inn being closed, I know there is no room at the inn. I am 
saying I need more people in my district just for redistricting 
purposes,'' and she continued that they could clearly fit here. 
Does that address your questions about the reason, the 
motivation, why these policies are in place?
    Mr. Homan. I certainly believe it is probably associated 
with a decision to overturn the Trump Census rule, and now 
migrants can be counted in the Census and you reproportion 
seats--it is going to have an effect.
    Mr. Burlison. Thank you.
    Mr. Palmer. The gentleman's time has expired. The Chair now 
recognizes the gentleman from Florida, Mr. Frost, for 5 minutes 
for his questions.
    Mr. Frost. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. So, since Republican 
politicians have no plan to address the real issues of this 
country--low wages, high prices, et cetera--their leaders at 
the highest levels have dipped into the fascist playbook to 
blame communities and to blame minorities and to blame 
immigrants for the issues that Americans are facing, and these 
days, the more fear you can stoke, the better. I mean, one of 
my colleagues, Marjorie Taylor Greene, has called immigrants 
terrorists, and many on the right take their cues from their 
top leader, former President Donald Trump. From 2015 to just 
this past Monday night in Iowa, he has used fear and racism to 
spread false narratives. He said that immigrants are 
``poisoning the blood of our country,'' echoing the same 
language used by Hitler to describe Jewish people.
    Mr. Bier, why is it grossly incorrect to paint immigrants 
as criminals, and why is this rhetoric not only false, but 
dangerous?
    Mr. Bier. Look, U.S. Census Bureau data is quite clear. 
Immigrants are about half as likely to be incarcerated in the 
United States as others. If you look at the illegal immigrant 
population, as we have at the Cato Institute, again, it is 
about 30 percent less, and that includes all the people that we 
are putting in cages just because they are immigrants. So, it 
is not true that they are more likely to end up in our criminal 
justice system, burdening our courts and our police.
    And also, if you look at area studies that look at what 
happens to crime rates when an infusion of immigrants comes in, 
we have seen during the 1990's, especially, when you had this 
huge wave, far exceeding anything that has happened recently, 
of immigrants come into major cities, there was this rebirth in 
the economy in those areas. They started businesses, they 
rejuvenated the communities, filled vacant housing, and that 
brought crime rates down as well. So, there are multiple 
mechanisms by which immigrants reduce crime and make for a more 
secure community.
    Mr. Frost. Of course. Thank you. And, Mr. Bier, are you 
familiar with stochastic terrorism? Stochastic terrorism is to 
provoke random acts of ideologically motivated violence that 
are statistically predictable. Last year, a gunman murdered 23 
people and injured another 22 in El Paso, Texas using the same 
rhetoric of invasion and the Great Replacement theory that we 
hear from Donald Trump and many leaders on the right. Mr. Bier, 
what is the point of stoking this type of hate toward 
immigrants?
    Mr. Bier. Look, there is only two reasons why you use the 
word ``invasion.'' The first is you want to justify violence 
against them. Otherwise, you would say it is a violation of the 
law, it is illegal, you want a law enforcement response. 
Invasion calls for a military violent response to these people. 
The second reason is to invoke invasion under the 
constitutional clauses in which that is used. There are two. 
One, states can respond to an invasion unilaterally. We know 
what an invasion under the Constitution means. James Madison 
said an invasion is an act of war, so we know what a real 
invasion is. We know the difference between people coming to 
serve us and work for us versus an act of war.
    Mr. Frost. So, this language fuels a lot of these hateful, 
violent acts we have seen?
    Mr. Bier. Oh, absolutely.
    Mr. Frost. So, I just hosted a roundtable in my district 
because my constituents are terrified about the talk that is 
going on up here. An amazing community leader and pastor, 
Father Jose, brought up a really good point that migrants do 
not just want to come here, we told them to come here. And, Mr. 
Bier, the Statue of Liberty situated next to Ellis Island, an 
iconic American symbol reads, ``Give me your tired, your poor, 
your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched 
refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, 
tempest-toss to me. I lift my lamp beside the golden door.''
    To my colleagues on the other side of the aisle, let us be 
honest with immigrants who deserve better than what you are 
offering them. Do not welcome immigrants if you plan to reject 
them. If you keep pushing your bigoted H.R. 2 bill, then also 
pass this bill. I have taken the liberty of drafting it for 
you. It removes the Statue of Liberty, our largest symbol that 
tells people to come here. This is who you are, removing the 
fabric of America. So, I want to know which Republican who 
supports and voted for H.R. 2 will introduce this bill.
    [No response.]
    Mr. Frost. If you are going to support H.R. 2 and these 
bigoted measures, the least you can do is not be a damn liar. 
As Americans, we must reject hypocrisy and lead with love, and 
as long as Republican officials are more interested in peddling 
hate, the solutions to fixing this problem in our immigration 
system will only get worse. Thank you. I yield back.
    Mr. Palmer. The gentleman yields. I just want to take a 
minute to tell you, I appreciate that Mr. Homan pointed out 
that the cages were there during the Obama Administration, and 
if the Biden Administration had wanted to, they could have 
removed them day one.
    The Chair now recognizes the gentleman from Florida, Mr. 
Waltz, for 5 minutes for his questions. Your mic.
    Mr. Waltz. New Committee. All right. Different mechanism. 
Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    My colleague from Florida mentioned leading with love, and 
I think we are going to talk about some love in the next few 
minutes, or true hate, which is the sexual violence against 
women and against these migrants. But before I get to that, in 
2021, the Department of Homeland Security implemented the 
parole plus alternative to detention with conditions. These so-
called plans allow the release of migrants from CBP custody 
into the country on an expedited basis without being placed in 
removal proceedings, and with little to no vetting and no 
monitoring, and without court dates. So, they are essentially 
just fully released. Florida has sued DHS and Federal court, 
asserting that DHS was ignoring Federal law, which they are, 
and including Secretary Mayorkas, is ignoring Federal law with 
this program that requires people entering the country 
illegally to be detained.
    So, I have up here statements from the judge in Florida, 
Judge Kent Wetherell, who ordered Federal authorities to vacate 
the parole policy, and he said, ``for the most part, the 
evidence establishes that defendants, DHS, have effectively 
turned the Southwest border into a meaningless line in the 
sand, a little more than a speed bump for aliens flooding into 
the country.'' And you can see here where, again, the judge 
says that essentially these policies have said come in and we 
are open, come. So, let us talk about the effects on these 
migrants that we all care about. Let us talk about leading for 
love as Mr. Frost from Florida has talked about.
    Mr. Chairman, I would like to enter into the record that 
Doctors Without Borders--do not take this from me, do not take 
this as a partisan issue--Doctors Without Borders, an 
international NGO, says, 40 percent of the girls and women 
making this transit, that we have essentially invited them to 
do, are being sexually assaulted and abused. And just a 
series--again, do not take it from me--a series of articles: 
``Hundreds of Migrants Face Sex Attacks in the Darien Gap, says 
Doctors Without Borders.'' They treated nearly 400 in 1 week 
alone in 2023.
    ``Migrant Children Sexually Abused in 'Rape Tents' While 
Crossing the Darien Gap,'' according to the New York Post. The 
reality of women en route to the U.S., rapes and no access to 
hospitals. Again, rape tents and sexual violence toward 
migrants plague those trying to make the dangerous journey to 
the U.S. And finally, New York Times, ``You Have to Pay With 
Your Body: The Hidden Nightmare of Sexual Violence On 
Immigrants From Cartels and Gangs.''
    Mr. Bier, what would you say to the--I mean, I could keep 
going--to the abuse on these millions? I mean, if you just look 
at the numbers and do the math, we have got just in 2 months, 
DHS released a quarter million, enough to fill entire stadiums.
    Mr. Bier. Look, I am a father.
    Mr. Waltz. Do you disagree with the judge that essentially 
these policies say, come in, we are open? And I am a father of 
a daughter, too, which is where I think you are going, and how 
abhorrent this is that our policies are saying, come so you can 
get a job and go in the United States.
    Mr. Bier. I do not want people to have to immigrate 
illegally. I want them to be able to come legally. Do you want 
them to be able to come legally? If you do not want them to be 
able to come legally, then this is what you are for.
    Mr. Waltz. I am for legal immigration, for orderly 
immigration. However, you are espousing policies that invite 
people to come however they can.
    Mr. Bier. No, I want them to come legally.
    Mr. Waltz. And 40 percent, by gangs and by cartels and by 
smugglers, of these poor young girls are forever scarred and 
abused because of policies that the other side of the aisle and 
that you are advocating for, and it is disgusting, and it has 
to stop, and H.R. 2 would put a stop to it. So, my friend can 
call it bigoted if he wants. He can throw those ad hominem 
attacks around.
    Mr. Bier. It would make it worse.
    Mr. Waltz. We are looking to put a stop to it. Let me just 
ask you in my remaining time, if this were Al-Qaeda and ISIS 
killing a hundred thousand Americans a year, more than we lost 
in Vietnam in 10 years, by pumping in and smuggling in 
chemicals, would you oppose using military resources to take 
down Al-Qaeda and ISIS?
    Mr. Bier. I oppose the War on Terror, yes. It was a 
disastrous mistake. It completely disrupted the Middle East and 
made the problem far worse.
    Mr. Waltz. For the record, Mr. Bier has opposed the War on 
Terror----
    Mr. Bier. Yes.
    Mr. Waltz [continuing]. To keep Americans safe. I think 
that is insensitive. I yield my time.
    Mr. Bier. If we bomb Mexico, it will make the problem way 
worse.
    Mr. Palmer. The gentleman has yielded. The Chair now 
recognizes the gentleman from Texas, Mr. Casar, for 5 minutes 
for his questions.
    Mr. Casar. Thank you, Chairman. Mr. Homan, you began as the 
Trump ICE Acting Director at the end of January 2017. Is that 
correct? I think the date is January 30, 2017. Does that sound 
more or less right?
    Mr. Homan. Yes.
    Mr. Casar. And you recall your first month on the job, 
Operation Crosscheck, which was a large-scale immigration 
enforcement action across multiple cities, do you recall that?
    Mr. Homan. Not specifically, but we did a lot of operations 
like that.
    Mr. Casar. It was a very significant operation targeting 
communities in multiple states, starting on February 6, 2017. 
The ICE officials at the time said this was about going after 
``criminal aliens and making us more safe.'' But in my 
community of Austin, Texas, the majority of people arrested and 
separated from their families had no criminal conviction at 
all. Do you recall this?
    Mr. Homan. I do not specifically recall that, but there is 
no prerequisite in the immigration law that says you got to 
commit another crime to be arrested for being in the country 
illegally.
    Mr. Casar. I understand that. Your ICE spokeswoman at the 
time said that, ``The purpose of the operation was removing 
from the streets criminal aliens and other threats to the 
public,'' but then a majority of people arrested had no 
criminal conviction. Does that square up for you?
    Mr. Homan. I do not recall that. I find it----
    Mr. Casar. I have another question for you, sir. Are you 
aware that your Chief of Staff, when they were asked this 
question, wrote emails asking agents to come up with ``top 
three egregious cases in order to deflect criticism and if 
there were not three egregious cases, go include a case from a 
different city.'' Are you aware of that?
    Mr. Homan. No, I am not.
    Mr. Casar. So, you are not aware of what your Chief of 
Staff was writing?
    Mr. Homan. I do not know every email he writes. No, I do 
not.
    Mr. Casar. There was an email directly to you from DHS 
Secretary Kelly asking for this issue to be addressed. Then in 
my city of Austin, Texas, ICE officials were told they failed 
at this task because the egregious case that they wrote up was 
from before the time of the operation. Do you recall that?
    Mr. Homan. I recall, when I was ICE Director, we arrested 
thousands of criminal aliens----
    Mr. Casar. You are not answering my question.
    Mr. Homan. I do not know a specific case. I do not know a 
specific case.
    Mr. Casar. Reclaiming my time. Reclaiming my time. Do you 
recall that when you were asked whether this had to do with 
public safety that then Agent Laron Bryant said to Federal 
Judge Andrew Austin that the reason for these ICE operations 
was not related to a safety protocol but instead was a result 
of the Travis County, where Austin is, new policy that would 
target criminal enforcement on immigrants rather than deporting 
non-criminal immigrants. Do you recall this?
    Mr. Homan. No.
    Mr. Casar. So, you do not remember that Agent Laron Bryant 
said that, under oath, that under you, in your first month as 
director, that there was a targeted operation at a city because 
of a policy choice from a local elected official. You do not 
recall that?
    Mr. Homan. I had 20,000 people under me. I do not recall.
    Mr. Casar. You do not recall this. I understand. Let me be 
clear. The right wing and these so-called Trump border policies 
have nothing to do with keeping people safe. This is about 
ripping families apart, arresting immigrants, and blaming 
someone for our problems so we can ignore the fact that Trump 
and these right-wing officials are grifters and that Trump is 
taking millions of dollars from foreign governments to enrich 
himself. His main policy achievement had nothing to do with the 
border or migration but cutting taxes for the rich and the 
biggest corporations in this country. All the while, the 
collateral damage is kids being separated from their moms, 
people in cages, which we cannot deny. Mr. Homan sitting here 
before us said at the CPAC convention ``he doesn't give a shit 
about that''----
    Mr. Homan. Wrong.
    Mr. Casar [continuing]. And desperate people living in the 
shadows undocumented while legal pathways----
    Mr. Homan. That is a wrong statement. That is a lie. You 
just said something that was not true.
    Mr. Raskin. Mr. Chairman, would you please stop the witness 
from interrupting our Members?
    Mr. Casar [continuing]. While legal pathways to migration 
remain closed and are getting even more closed. Folks here are 
saying they care about sexual assaults by cartels? Give me a 
break. The Republican policies of trying to close legal 
pathways toward migration is the best blessing that cartels 
could have ever asked for. By making it harder for people to 
apply for parole, by making it harder for people to seek 
asylum, Republican policies are exactly what the cartels would 
like.
    You all are making the cartels money. You all are making 
the cartels money. By trying to slash addiction services, by 
trying to slash helping people with mental health, then, yes, 
you are helping the cartels. If I was a cartel leader, I would 
be picking the Republican policies being proposed in H.R. 2 
every day of the week.
    You have people like Governor Abbott saying he would shoot 
migrants coming across the border if he would not get 
prosecuted for murder for it. You have got Trump saying 
immigrants are going to poison the blood of our country. Do not 
come here and say that you actually care about the safety of 
those immigrants. If you cared, then we would update our 
immigration laws for the first time since basically I was born 
so that people could apply safely and would not have to go to a 
cartel and would not have to go to a criminal organization.
    Immigration is a good thing. Immigrants are less likely to 
commit crime, more likely to start small businesses, help us 
economically. Sure, the food and the parties are much better 
with us here, but in our system, we have to open up legal 
pathways, and let us not say that this is about safety because 
every step of the way, your Agency lied and said it was about 
safety while you were separating kids. I yield back.
    Mr. Palmer. The gentleman's time has expired. To the 
witnesses, if someone says something that hurts your feelings, 
just leave it there and do not interrupt the Members. Respect 
their time. I recognize myself for 5 minutes for questions.
    Mr. Homan, we have heard discussion about using technology 
to secure the border, but the technology really does not secure 
the border. It allows you to see who is coming to the border, 
and if you have got agents tied up processing people crossing 
illegally, it really does not do anything in terms of 
interdiction. Is that correct?
    Mr. Homan. Could I respond to the earlier remarks, sir, 
that was saying I said something that was not said at all? I 
think it is important to set the record straight here. I never 
said at CPAC I did not care about family separation. What I 
said was, I did not care about----
    Mr. Raskin. Mr. Chairman, was he recognized for this 
purposes? Is this from your time?
    Mr. Palmer. The Chair recognizes you. Make it as brief as 
you possibly can, and I think you have already said you did not 
say that.
    Mr. Homan. I have never said I did not care about family 
separation.
    Mr. Palmer. OK. That is----
    Mr. Homan. What I said was I did not care being sued 
because I get to give a sworn statement and set the record 
straight.
    Mr. Palmer. OK. I want to get back to some things here. 
When you have----
    Mr. Casar. Mr. Chairman, I would like to enter into record 
this article from Newsweek, ``Trump's ICE Director Doesn't Care 
About Families Separated at Border.'' Thank you.
    Mr. Palmer. The gentleman is not recognized. The gentleman 
is not I am reclaiming my time. It is my time. The gentleman is 
not recognized. Reclaiming my time. Will you reset the clock? 
Not 5 minutes. I think it was about 4:30. I will just be a 
little more brief.
    OK. The point that I was trying to make is I talked with a 
rancher a couple of weeks ago down at the border, and he told 
me that since December 28th, that he had the same fence cut 77 
times by people who were not being interdicted by the Border 
Patrol. He told me that on January 4th, 77 times in 6 days. If 
people are really concerned about coming in here to get a job, 
to seek asylum, why would they not want to be picked up by the 
Border Patrol, Mr. Homan? And be brief if you can. I have got a 
number of things I want to run by you.
    Mr. Homan. You are talking about 1.9 million got-aways. Why 
didn't they take advantage of the giveaway program? Because 
obviously they do not want to be fingerprinted, do not want to 
be vetted. They do not want to turn themselves in the border.
    Mr. Palmer. Is it true that the Border Patrol charges less 
to the people who will wade across the river and turn 
themselves in than they do to people that they try to get in 
here undetected?
    Mr. Homan. The cartels are charged less for people that 
want to turn themselves in rather than getting to Chicago----
    Mr. Palmer. And they are also financing this and hold these 
people making payments for 8, 10, 12 years to pay off the 
financing for paying the cartels to get them in?
    Mr. Homan. Some, yes.
    Mr. Palmer. Yes, some are doing that. The other thing that 
I want to point out, you said 1.9 million got-aways. Does that 
include people that we do not know, or is that an estimate of 
the ones that we know got away, we saw them, and could not 
catch them?
    Mr. Homan. The known got-aways are captured on video, drone 
traffic, sensor traffic, or the Border Patrol sees it.
    Mr. Palmer. Is it 1.9 million known or unknown or----
    Mr. Homan. We do not know how many unknown because there 
are large parts of the border, like the Marfa sector, the Big 
Bend National Park, where there is very little technology.
    Mr. Palmer. I want you to be brief because I want to hit 
some other things. We know that in Fiscal Year 2022-2023, we 
had 169 people on a Suspected Terrorist Watch List. Since 2020 
it is 312. Mr. Homan, how many did it take to carry out the 
attacks on 9/11?
    Mr. Homan. Nineteen.
    Mr. Palmer. Nineteen.
    Mr. Homan. And I would like to say that under Trump 
Administration, 4 years, we had 11.
    Mr. Palmer. OK. But it took 19 to carry out the terrorist 
attacks. And in regard to the unaccompanied children, there are 
somewhere between 85,000 and 100,000 that we do not know where 
they are, and if it were 100, it would be a tragedy, OK? And we 
are not doing anything in terms of collecting biometrics or 
anything like that to try to find these children, and when you 
have got children being brought across the border as got-aways, 
what purpose does that serve or potentially could serve, Mr. 
Homan?
    Mr. Homan. Well, based on my 30 years doing investigations 
and trafficking, some are going to be in sex slavery, some will 
be in forced labor, some will be indentured servitude. They 
will be forced to work.
    Mr. Palmer. OK. And just to point out about the labor 
demand here, we have got the lowest labor participation rate in 
decades, so it is not just an issue of unemployment. By the 
way, Mr. Bier, I have ran a think tank, and I pretty well 
understand some of these economics. I have done a lot of work 
with Cato. I am very disappointed in the position that you have 
taken, frankly, because you do not want to have illegal drugs. 
It would not be a problem bringing drugs across the border 
under the policies you guys would advocate. But in terms of 
labor, the Bureau of Labor Statistics changed how they count 
unemployment back in 2012, 2014, somewhere in that range, and 
stopped counting people who are no longer looking for a job. 
So, that is one of the reasons why you have such a low 
unemployment rate.
    Mr. Homan, I want to get back to what the cartels are doing 
here. I asked a former drug czar if we have gone from a war on 
drugs to a war with drugs. It is been mentioned several times 
that we have had over 100,000 people die from drug overdose, 
and that probably about half of it is fentanyl-related. Now 
they have added another additive to the drugs called tranq that 
Narcan does not work on. Does it appear, considering the source 
of the chemicals to make these drugs that are being provided to 
the cartels, that we may actually have a war with drugs and 
that these people are casualties?
    Mr. Homan. I can tell you the fentanyl doses are getting 
more and more serious. Overdose deaths are going to happen a 
lot more often. The criminal cartels are making record amounts 
of money now, moving narcotics between the ports of entry, 
smuggling people and trafficking people. And for the earlier 
statement that fentanyl is the most common drug to come to the 
port of entries, I disagree. We don't know what is coming 
between the ports of entry because 90 percent of the agents are 
off the line.
    Mr. Palmer. That is right, and my last point, I want to 
reiterate the thing about the cages. I was at the border in 
2015 during the Obama Administration. Children were in those 
cages for a reason, and if the Biden Administration wanted that 
stopped, they could have stopped at day one. I yield back, and 
now I recognize the gentleman from Florida, Mr. Moskowitz, for 
5 minutes for his question.
    Mr. Casar. Mr. Chairman, is it in order now for me to enter 
things into the record?
    Mr. Palmer. Yes.
    Mr. Casar. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. So, what I was trying 
to enter into the record is the article from Newsweek saying 
Trump's ICE Director does not care about families separated at 
the border. Mr. Homan, the correct quote is, ``I am sick and 
tired of hearing about family separation. I am still being sued 
over that. I do not give a shit.'' Right. And also, I would 
like to enter into the record this article saying, ``Internal 
Emails Show ICE Agents Struggling to Substantiate Trump's Lies 
About Immigrants.''
    Mr. Palmer. So ordered, without objection.
    Mr. Palmer. The gentleman from Florida is recognized.
    Mr. Moskowitz. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. You know, we have 
failed to pass comprehensive immigration reform up here for 
decades, but if you listen to the witnesses, some of them, and 
if you listen to my colleagues, you would think the world did 
not begin until President Biden was elected. You would think it 
was dinosaurs, the wheel, Jesus, the world was flat, the world 
was round, Biden was elected, every problem. Like nothing 
happened before.
    You know, people pretend like everything was just perfect, 
but you know what? One of my colleagues, when bringing up 
statistics showed why this is a farce. She brought up that 
President Obama deported more people than President Trump. In 
fact, President Obama deported more people in each term than 
President Trump. Well, hold on a second. If the border was not 
a problem until President Biden was elected, then how are we 
deporting all of these people in Administrations before Trump 
was elected? It is because this situation has been going on for 
decades, so stop lying to the American people that none of this 
happened until President Biden was elected.
    Yes, my colleagues passed H.R. 2. They did. It was a 
wonderful messaging bill. They knew when they passed it, it was 
dead on arrival in the Senate. And see, that is what this place 
does. The Senate passes bills that are dead in the House, the 
House passes bills that are dead in the Senate. They wash their 
hands with it, declare victory and say we did something. OK. It 
is fake. You do not pass a bill that you know the other chamber 
is not going to take and say solve the problem, and it goes for 
the Senate, too. It is just not on the House.
    And by the way, there were some good policies in H.R. 2. 
There were things in H.R. 2 that I would vote for. There were 
things in H.R. 2 that are bipartisan to help secure the border, 
but there were things in H.R. 2 that were outrageous because it 
was never meant to become law. There are things in H.R. 2 that 
would potentially prevent Jews escaping the Holocaust from 
coming in to the country because there are all sorts of changes 
to asylum. If you travel through a third country, you cannot 
come in. There are all sorts of language in there that, again, 
was never meant to become law. And I do not think my 
colleagues, by the way, put that in there because they would 
want to prevent Jews from coming into this country, but we have 
seen what happens when there is language in laws that is not 
intended, like what happened with St. Louis in 1939. Well, 
there were laws that prevented Jews on a ship escaping Germany. 
We denied them because we applied things that were not meant 
for that situation.
    And so, look, you do not have to listen to me, right? My 
colleagues do not have to listen to me. I want them to listen 
to their own colleagues, their own colleagues. Chip Roy, who is 
a conservative Freedom Caucus member, has said President Trump 
has failed to secure the border. Ron DeSantis, who ran wall 
commercials in order to become Governor said, ``Trump didn't 
build the wall, and Mexico didn't pay for it.'' OK.
    And, Mr. Homan, I appreciate your energy and passion for 
children. And I appreciate that you have said, you know, have 
you seen terrible things that keep you up at night? I have. I 
have seen parents in my neighborhood bury dozens of kids 
because they died at school because mentally ill people have 
access to weapons in this country and body armor and go into 
movie theaters and churches and schools and shopping malls and 
gun down children. You want to talk about a wall? You are 
talking to a wall. They are a wall. They do not want to help 
kids.
    By the way, they do not want to solve this issue either. 
Again, do not listen to me. Just listen to the Speaker, who was 
caught on a call the other day saying that we cannot solve the 
border crisis until after the election. By the way, here is 
Congressman Troy Nehls giving it all away, giving it all away. 
Let us read this: ``Let me tell you''--he is talking about 
immigration--``Let me tell you, I am not willing to do a darn 
thing right now to help a Democrat, to help Joe Biden's 
approval rating. I will not help the Democrats try to improve 
this man's dismal approval ratings. I am not going to do it.'' 
He is saying he is not going to do anything on the border, and 
he is from Texas, which needs help. He is not going to do 
anything because he does not want to give Joe Biden a win. You 
have Members of this Committee that have threatened to vacate 
the Speaker again if they do anything on the border. Senator 
John Thune has said this is a unique opportunity. He said when 
Trump was President and Republicans controlled both chambers, 
they could not get done the policies that are being discussed 
now.
    So, look, I am willing to do stuff on the border. I am 
willing to do it, but they are not willing to do it because 
they are doing what people hate about this place. They want to 
use it to raise money, they want to use it to politicize it, 
but they do not want to solve the issue. There is a deal on the 
table. They can solve the issue.
    Mr. Palmer. The gentleman's time has expired.
    Mr. Moskowitz. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    Mr. Raskin. Mr. Chairman?
    Mr. Palmer. The gentleman is recognized.
    Mr. Raskin. Thank you, kindly. This is just for a unanimous 
consent request for CBP Enforcement Statistics. I would like to 
submit for the record showing that encounters with individuals 
on the terrorist screening dataset at the Southwest border were 
actually higher during the Trump Administration.
    Mr. Palmer. So ordered, without objection.
    Mr. Palmer. The Chair now recognizes the gentlelady from 
South Carolina, Ms. Mace, for 5 minutes for her question.
    Ms. Mace. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. This is an interesting 
hearing today. I think the left has lost its proverbial mind. I 
have heard a lot from the left today about how we are ``a 
Nation of laws and need to follow our laws.'' It is the same 
group of people that will not condemn violence by Antifa. It is 
the same group of people that will not condemn violence by 
Black Lives Matter. It is the same group of people that will 
not condemn violence, antisemitic violent protests against Jews 
in this country right now, and they want to lecture us about 
following our laws, which is complete and total BS.
    Joe Biden and Alejandro Mayorkas have willfully and 
intentionally unleashed an invasion of this country by illegal 
aliens from around the world, including known terrorists, sex 
offenders, and drug traffickers. By systematically dismantling 
the successful border security policies of the Trump 
Administration, they flung the border wide open for any and all 
who wish to enter here illegally, that is on their backs. They 
claim their open border policies are compassionate, but the 
unprecedented humanitarian, national security, and economic 
crisis they have created is anything but.
    From a humanitarian standpoint, the horrors caused by the 
Biden Administration's open borders are beyond words. Criminal 
cartels who control the border, force illegal aliens, including 
women and children, into indentured servitude, sex slavery, 
drug trafficking, and worse, to pay their way into the United 
States. In fact, studies estimate 60 percent of unaccompanied 
alien children are exploited through child pornography and drug 
trafficking. If you speak to law enforcement at the border, you 
will hear of the rape trees--rape trees--where they hang the 
underwear of women and girls they brutally raped on their 
journey to America like a trophy.
    There have been record deaths of illegal aliens, record 
deaths of American citizens due to fentanyl, and record profits 
for drug cartels at the hands of this Administration. Ten years 
ago, I did not even know what fentanyl was, and just in 2023 
alone, I knew two people that died of a fentanyl overdose.
    Open borders are not compassionate, they are evil, and I 
hope like hell Governor Abbott and other Governors at the 
Southern border let these sanctuary cities know what is going 
on at our Southern border and share that evil with them because 
this is at their hands, too, and all of a sudden they have 
illegal immigrants in their cities, and they do not want 
anything to do with them anymore. Alejandro Mayorkas has blood 
on his hands.
    My first question today, I have heard a lot this morning, 
Mr. Edlow, about the left saying that legal immigration is just 
so darn difficult. We are a Nation of laws, but yet we cannot 
follow our laws. The hypocrisy is real. Just a cursory 
question, how many come into our country legally every year?
    Mr. Edlow. The number, I could not give you an exact 
number, but it is close to a million, if not over.
    Ms. Mace. Yes, around 1, 1.1 million year after year, 
right. Can you explain how directives issued by Secretary 
Mayorkas have empowered drug cartels?
    Mr. Edlow. Certainly. The directives, starting with the 
halting deportation the first day of the Biden Administration 
and moving on to the enforcement priorities under Secretary 
Mayorkas, have made it so that drug cartels know that the 
majority of people that they helped to come across for one 
reason or another or that they exploit to help them get across 
are going to be not the subject of deportation of enforcement 
actions, and ultimately, it is going to help the cartels gain a 
greater foothold in the country.
    Ms. Mace. I have one more question. Do you believe 
Secretary Mayorkas' actions and directives violate Federal law 
and his oath of office?
    Mr. Edlow. Well, I believe that the actions, especially in 
terms of the regulations, have made the border significantly 
less secure. They are in violation of the law, and I do believe 
it is dereliction of duty for him to have signed off 
regulations that have done that.
    Ms. Mace. Thank you. I have one last question for Mr. 
Homan. In the infinite wisdom of state and local officials in 
South Carolina, there are actually zero sanctuary cities in our 
great state. However, on October 7, 2021, Secretary Mayorkas 
issued a memo directing ICE to halt immigration enforcement in 
so-called protected areas throughout the country. As former 
Acting Director of ICE, can you explain how this undermines the 
ability of ICE to effectively enforce the laws? Is it even 
possible for ICE to do their job on their current DHS 
directives?
    Mr. Homan. Because there are locations where they could be 
an aggravated felon, a public safety threat, we are not allowed 
to go there. If they are within a close proximity to a school, 
if they are in a close vicinity of a doctor's office, and I 
understand humanitarian concerns, but where is the public 
safety concern on that? And if I can add one more thing, ma'am. 
Earlier I was questioned about the terrorist apprehended on 
Southwest border, and I just heard that Trump Administration 
had more. I have the CBP webpage here I took off this morning. 
In Fiscal Year 2017, two on the Southern border; Fiscal Year 
2018, six; and Fiscal Year 2020, three; Fiscal Year 2019, zero, 
for a total of 11. If you count the northern border, total of 
14, Southwest border 11. Under Biden Administration, Fiscal 
Year 2021, 15; Fiscal Year 2022, 98; Fiscal Year 2023, 169; so 
far this year 30. So, we got a grand total of over 282 compared 
to 11 or 14, depending on what border you are talking about.
    Ms. Mace. That is D.C. math for you. Thank you, Mr. 
Chairman, and I yield back.
    Mr. LaTurner. [Presiding.] Thank you. The Chair recognizes 
Ms. Tlaib from Michigan.
    Mr. Moskowitz. Mr. Chairman, I have a unanimous consent 
motion. I would like to enter an article into the record.
    Mr. LaTurner. Proceed.
    Mr. Moskowitz. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The article reads, 
``Marjorie Taylor Greene Threatens to Oust Speaker Johnson over 
Border Deal.'' Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    Mr. LaTurner. Without objection, so ordered.
    Ms. Tlaib?
    Ms. Tlaib. Thank you so much. Mr. Chair, if I may, I do 
want to begin in asking unanimous consent to enter into the 
record research from Immigration Forum confirming that evidence 
that indicates that illicit fentanyl is primarily brought to 
the United States by American citizens and usually through 
legal ports of entry.
    Mr. LaTurner. Without objection, so ordered.
    Ms. Tlaib. Thank you. I grew up in Southwest Detroit, and 
if you look at Southwest, it is the most vibrant, economy wise, 
but culturally, it is diverse, 20 different ethnicities, and 
many of my neighbors have been mixed up with the--just have 
been really directly impacted by the broken immigration system, 
and it is something we are not talking enough about. We always 
focus so much on the border, but let us talk about so-called 
``legal immigration'' in our country. Mr. Bier, are you 
familiar with the Visa Bulletin?
    Mr. Bier. Yes.
    Ms. Tlaib. This is where our families go to that are United 
States citizens or green card holders, where they say, oh, I am 
going to go ahead and apply, it is for my sister, my brother in 
Mexico or other countries. Do you know what the average wait 
time for them to get adjustment of status? Not approval, 
because they will get approved, you know, sometimes within a 
year or so. But this is adjustment of status where they 
actually get access to a green card to actually come into the 
United States. Do you know how long?
    Mr. Bier. Well, for siblings, it is going to be over 2 
decades.
    Ms. Tlaib. Yes, that is just in Mexico. So, I know, for 
instance, my mother, when she applied, it was about 12 years 
for her sibling, and I remember also working, as an immigration 
attorney by trade, working on cases where even when that time 
came, it was 2 years or so after before they could even get an 
appointment at the consulate to adjust their status. Do you 
know how long it is to get U.S. citizens with children that are 
over 21 years old?
    Mr. Bier. Again, it is over a decade.
    Ms. Tlaib. Yes. I think it is really important to talk 
about this because there is a process and there are laws, and 
they are trying to follow the laws, and it is literally decades 
before they can actually unite with their families, and I do 
not think people talk about that. Mr. Bier, the other thing 
that they do not talk about, in Southwest Detroit, do you know 
how many U.S. citizens I have that are married to undocumented 
spouses?
    Mr. Bier. I am sure it is thousands.
    Ms. Tlaib. They cannot adjust their status here in the 
United States because of--they have a pathway. They have a 
pathway to go through the legal process and they are not able 
to adjust their status, even though they have children, they 
are paying their taxes, they are participating. They are my 
neighbors. For 2 decades they have been my neighbors and have 
no pathway to citizenship. Can you talk about the fact that we 
are so focused on all these other rhetoric and just kind of 
messaging and so politics, because I will be honest. I am going 
to tell the truth. I think both Democrats and Republicans have 
failed our immigrant neighbors in our country. It is not just 
one or this. We have.
    It has been overwhelming for me to be here the last 5 years 
and watch us using the same rhetoric. I mean, I kid you not, I 
hear this thing of like prisons first, humanity later. But I 
see it from everyone, you know, that is trying to say they are 
going to be tough on immigration. I can tell you, tough on the 
border from the forever impeached President, from President 
Obama, Bush, Clinton, and so on. It has not worked. It has not 
united families.
    It leaves them in this limbo of 10, 20 years, and some even 
more than that, and the fact that we have thousands of U.S. 
citizens literally in my community that cannot get their 
spouses access to a legal pathway because we have literally 
layered on all this bureaucracy, and there is no pathway. And 
that is why I think it is really important for all those 
advocates, everyone that continues to come to our offices, when 
they are talking about fix the immigration system, this is what 
they are talking about. They are talking about this.
    Can you talk a little bit about the importance of talking 
about these processing times, talking about the fact that we 
are not actually really investing in so-called legal 
immigration process in our country?
    Mr. Bier. Yes. So, you mentioned that, you know, it is 2 
decades for a sibling, it is over a decade now, but those are 
just the ones who applied a decade ago. For the people who are 
applying right now, it is effectively indefinite because there 
have been so many people who have applied over the last 2 
decades, that at this point, these illegal immigration pathways 
effectively do not exist. For Mexico, basically, you cannot 
apply for that family based immigration system at all. Your 
sponsor will certainly be dead before you can immigrate. So, at 
this point----
    Ms. Tlaib. Yes, but all my colleagues can just go to this 
Visa Bulletin. Right now, do you know what they are working on 
for unmarried sons and daughters of U.S. citizens? They are 
working on 2015 applications that have been approved, but they 
cannot adjust their status. I think it is important because 
there are people that are trying to do the right thing, and we 
are failing them because we do not have a process that meets 
the needs of our country. With that, Mr. Chair, I yield.
    Mr. LaTurner. Thank you. I will now recognize myself for 5 
minutes.
    Thank you all for being here today, first of all, to 
address the worst border crisis our Nation has ever seen. The 
chaos we continue to see at the border did not just materialize 
out of thin air. It is fueled by 3 years of misguided policies 
from this Administration and the refusal to enforce the laws we 
have in place. The numbers speak for themselves: over 8 million 
illegal crossings, thousands of pounds of fentanyl pouring into 
our communities, and hundreds of individuals on the terrorist 
watchlist apprehended, trying to take advantage of this 
Administration's failure to act. Mexican cartels and Chinese 
fentanyl manufacturers are making billions in profits while 
Americans are losing family, friends, and loved ones in record 
numbers to the fentanyl epidemic. My home state of Kansas has 
seen a 73-percent increase in fentanyl overdoses, the highest 
in America.
    It is hard to find a community in my district that has not 
been impacted by fentanyl, and when I talk to local law 
enforcement, it is clear that the epidemic is getting worse 
every day. It is past time to restore the rule of law, secure 
our borders, and implement solutions to crack down on fentanyl 
traffickers. That is why I supported H.R. 2, commonsense 
legislation passed by House Republicans, to restart 
construction of the wall, provide more resources to our Border 
Patrol agents, and end failed Democrat policies that continue 
to incentivize mass migration. The truth is that a country 
without borders is not a country at all. President Biden and 
Secretary Mayorkas turn a blind eye to the invasion at the 
Southern border, and it failed to protect American families and 
communities. We have no choice but to find new leadership at 
the Department of Homeland Security.
    I want to thank the witnesses, again, for being here today 
and look forward to our discussion. Mr. Homan, appreciate you 
being here and appreciate all the work that you have done. In 
your testimony, you stated that more Americans are dying from 
fentanyl poisoning than ever, over 112,000, as the drug is 
pushed across our Southern border. From your experience, what 
inadequacies do you see in the current Administration's 
approach to addressing the rise in fentanyl, if you can focus 
on fentanyl, specifically.
    Mr. Homan. Well, more fentanyl is getting into the country 
because the Border Patrol is overwhelmed. We got record 
numbers, as you said, 8 million encounters across the Southwest 
border. I have been to the Southern border a dozen times. On 
average, over 70 percent of agents are pulled off the line to 
process this humanitarian issue. I have seen sectors in the 
last few months where every single Border Patrol agent in that 
sector is pulled off the line, which leaves hundreds of miles 
of border open.
    The criminal cartels in Mexico, let me be clear, have 
operational control of our Southern border. They decide what 
comes across, where it comes across, and who comes across, and 
what comes across because they will create gaps. They will send 
a big group of illegal aliens in one sector to take whatever 
few Border Patrol agents are left on patrol to seize that event 
because these people are in bad shape. We got a humanitarian 
issue we have to deal with, and they create gaps in the system. 
That is when they push the fentanyl and the trafficking of 
women and children and the gang members that do not want to 
turn themselves in. That is why we have 1.9 million known got-
aways.
    Mr. LaTurner. I mentioned H.R. 2. How would the passage of 
H.R. 2 into law make a difference?
    Mr. Homan. Because it takes into account a lot of the Trump 
policies which were proven effective. That is not my opinion, 
and we can talk about raw data. I mean, I have been hearing 
these numbers being thrown around. You can cherry pick the 
numbers as much as you want. If you are going to argue that the 
border is more secure under this President than it was under 
President Trump, it is a fallacy. It is not true.
    Mr. LaTurner. Will you quickly address the job that you 
think Secretary Mayorkas is doing?
    Mr. Homan. It is terrible, and let me say this, Secretary 
Mayorkas was the Deputy Secretary in 2014-2015 under President 
Obama. Joe Biden was Vice President. We had a family surge at 
the time. How did we address it? We built family centers, 
residential centers. We built detention facilities. We made 
them see a judge, and when they are in detention, they see a 
judge in 35 to 40 days, so they were not in detention long. 
Most of them lost their case. We put them in an airplane and 
sent them home, and it worked. The numbers dropped. What is he 
doing now? He is not detaining them. They are being released 
with no judge appointment, many of them, and he is not removing 
them. Five percent of what they removed last year was a non-
criminal border entrant, which shows if there is no 
consequence, if you are not going to remove them, they are 
going to keep coming.
    Mr. LaTurner. Yes. Mr. Edlow, how many green cards are 
issued every year?
    Mr. Edlow. The exact number escapes me, Congressman, but, 
essentially, Congress has proscribed that there is a certain 
number, a limit per family based, also employment-based, and 
then another 50,000 or so for diversity. So, it is about 
800,000 to a million. I just cannot remember the exact number.
    Mr. LaTurner. Yes. And our immigration system, is it closed 
down, as was alluded to? Is nothing happening? Speak to that 
very briefly.
    Mr. Edlow. There is plenty happening. The Visa Bulletin is 
something that explains kind of where we assume things are in 
the pipeline, given the limitations that Congress has put on 
the yearly number of visas that can be issued. Those numbers do 
get played with, though. So, you know, from 1 month to the 
next, there are long wait times. I am not going to sit here and 
deny long wait times for certain categories, but from 1 month 
to the next, those dates do vary kind of significantly.
    Mr. LaTurner. Thank you very much, and again, thanks for 
being here today. The Chair recognizes Ms. Bush from Missouri.
    Ms. Bush. Thank you. St. Louis and I are here today in 
solidarity with our immigrant community and in opposition to 
the demonizing and scapegoating by far-right MAGA extremists. 
Let us be clear. There is a crisis right now, but it is not 
because the Southern border is open or because immigrants are 
poisoning the blood of our country, which the Republicans and 
their racist cult leader, Donald Trump, want you to believe. 
The real crisis is one of----
    Mr. Cloud. I ask for her words to be taken down.
    Ms. Bush. No, he is not a current President.
    Mr. LaTurner. The gentlelady will suspend until the motion 
is dealt with.
    Mr. Raskin. What were the offending words?
    Mr. LaTurner. Mr. Cloud, will you state the words?
    Mr. Cloud. She mentioned that Republicans were racist.
    Ms. Bush. I did not say that. I said racist cult leader, 
Donald Trump, who is not a current President. So, it is not 
engaging in personalities.
    Mr. Cloud. The Republican Members and their----
    Mr. Raskin. Yes, she is clarifying. She is not referring to 
Republicans in general. She was referring to one individual who 
is not protected by the rules.
    Ms. Bush. Absolutely. The words say, ``which the 
Republicans and their racist cult leader, Donald Trump.''
    Mr. Cloud. Mr. Ranking Member, I do not think that you are 
the one to rule on this. I think the Chair is.
    Mr. Raskin. Yes. I was stating just the rule.
    Mr. LaTurner. Let us hold for just a moment.
    [Pause.]
    Mr. LaTurner. The rules apply only to when you are engaging 
in personalities of specific Members, so the comments are in 
order. The gentlelady can continue.
    Ms. Bush. Thank you, and so I will go back again because I 
want that to be clear, that there is a crisis right now, but it 
is not because the Southern border is open or because 
immigrants are poisoning the blood of our country, which the 
Republicans and their racist cult leader, Donald Trump, want 
you to believe.
    The real crisis is one of irregular migration. People 
around the world are fleeing from extraordinary levels of 
violence, persecution, and natural disasters. These 
catastrophes that force people from their homes have been 
fueled by longstanding U.S. Government policies supported by 
presidents of both parties. Every war we fund, every government 
we undermine, every blockade and sanctions we impose on 
civilians, and every day we fail to address the climate crisis 
is another investment in the displacement of others.
    There is also a crisis of humanity. It is shocking how our 
political discourse, it reduces people, actual humans, real 
people, who are all too often forced to flee their homes, to 
pawns, whose lives and rights can be traded away for weapons or 
some kind of perceived political gain. It is devastating how 
little we seem to focus on the horrific conditions they are 
facing. Parents and children are suffering as they try to 
navigate our broken immigration system and are met with cruelty 
and confusion. In the face of this suffering, all GOP Members 
of this Committee can manage to do is shout at immigrants as if 
they are not people.
    And then there is a crisis of logic. MAGA Republicans, but 
also some Democrats, want to pretend that a lack of enforcement 
is the problem even though this Administration has doubled the 
number of deportations between fiscal years 2022 and 2023, and 
even deported 18,000 families in that timeframe. So, 
unsurprisingly, this has not solved any of the underlying 
problems, but some folks seem to believe that if we double down 
on our failed policies of the past, somehow these problems will 
go away, but nothing could be further from the truth. The truth 
is that we will undermine our immigration system and make all 
the existing problems worse if we repeat the mistakes of the 
past. Failing to end our dangerous policies that fuel chaos 
abroad will only guarantee more people being forced to flee 
their homes and countries.
    Right now, Congress and the Administration are signaling 
they are willing to use immigrant communities as bargaining 
chips for more war and more weapons. However, raising the 
credible fear standard and imposing violent enforcement 
policies, like mass family separation and summary deportation, 
would destroy our asylum system for a generation, would violate 
our obligations under international law, and ensure more chaos 
in the immigration system.
    The damage caused by this chaos and inhumanity is personal 
for me and my constituents. My office has seen a significant 
increase in immigration cases in the recent months. Each one 
shows the human dimension of this issue, a family fleeing the 
horrific violence in Sudan; a mother who cannot take care of 
her ill child; a woman with cancer whose family members cannot 
visit her; a doctor whose fiance cannot live with her; a young 
man whose wife died and whose family members could not attend 
her funeral; endless wait times for family members fleeing 
violence and persecution in Haiti, in Gaza, and elsewhere.
    We are doing the best we can as an office to help our 
constituents in St. Louis as their families face these crushing 
obstacles, but, ultimately, Congress must act. Congress must 
legislate. We know what the solution is: building a just and 
humane immigration system and addressing the root causes of 
migration. That looks like expanding lawful pathways, using 
parole authority, increasing asylum case processing capacity, 
securing authorization for folks who are already here, 
protecting our Dreamers, ensuring that states and cities have 
the resources they need to process new arrivals, and ending 
support for war, blockades, sanctions, and other policies that 
disproportionately harm civilians.
    But instead of supporting real solutions we know will work, 
MAGA Republicans want to demonize and scapegoat our immigrants 
for short-term political gain, so let us be clear. Giving into 
the extreme demands of Donald Trump and MAGA Republicans is 
what will undermine our immigration system. Rejecting our 
obligations under the Refugee Convention will undermine our 
immigration system. Cruelty will undermine our immigration 
system and our own humanity.
    The real crisis is failing to act and substituting cruelty 
as a meaningful policy solution. We must not surrender to this 
failed policy approach. We must stand with the people, all the 
people, all of humanity, and with a fair and humane approach to 
immigration and foreign policy. That is what St. Louis and I 
will continue to push for. Thank you, and I yield back.
    Mr. LaTurner. Thank you. The Chair recognizes Mr. Fallon 
from Texas for 5 minutes.
    Mr. Fallon. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Let us talk about 
facts, reality, and less about, let us say word vomit and 
drivel. Here is a quote, ``Border is no less secure than before 
Biden took office.'' Who said that? Alejandro Mayorkas, the 
Homeland Security Secretary, said that under oath in front of 
this Congress. So, let us look at some indisputable data.
    In the first 34 months of the Trump Administration, there 
were 1.6 million illegal encounters. Same timeframe, Biden 
Administration, 8 million. No less secure than before Biden 
took office. That is interesting. In our history, we had two 
outlier months, 25 years ago, nearly where we had 200,000 
illegal border crossings a month. Had not happened in almost a 
quarter century. It has happened 20 times under Joe Biden's 
watch. We had in the last 2 years of the Trump Administration, 
believe it was six folks that were on the Terrorist Watch List, 
in the last 2 years, six total. Last year, 169.
    The number of Russian nationals crossing the Southern 
border has exploded. Same with Chinese nationals. Look at the 
MO of what the Russians did in Ukraine. They put folks into 
Ukraine, and then some of them were saboteurs. It does not need 
to be a large percentage. Chinese nationals, a few years ago, 
prior to Joe Biden, there were 323 Chinese nationals that 
crossed the Southern border. Last year was 24,000. If they 
happen to invade Taiwan, what if just 1 percent of those folks 
are saboteurs? Opioid deaths have doubled. Mexican drug cartel 
profits are at record highs, and last month was the worst month 
of illegal encounters, cracked 300,000. Interesting to note 
that in Fiscal Year 2017, for the entire year, it was just 
north of 300,000.
    Let us talk about the migrants themselves. Estimates are 
that 30 percent of women that cross all the way through 
southern Mexico to our frontier are raped or sexually assaulted 
along the journey. Countless numbers of migrants are shaken 
down by the cartels, and hundreds die. Any fair-minded person 
believe that the border is no less secure than under prior 
administrations? Three hundred thousand last month. The largest 
city I represent is Plano, Texas, population 300,000. Thirty-
nine states do not have a population of 9 million, and yet that 
is what we are nearing as far as illegal encounters go.
    We used to have Wait in Mexico, and now we have mass 
parole. We used to have to build walls. Now we have open gates. 
We used to have criminal deportations. Now we have American 
vacations paid for by the American taxpayer laundered through 
the NGO's. We used to put American security first, and now we 
see record cartel profits. We are a debtor Nation, $34 trillion 
in the hole, and the liberal fallacy and fantasy that somehow 
this is a net financial positive for this country is just that, 
it is patently absurd. It is about a $155 billion loss when you 
factor in we are educating foreign nationals, the medical care 
that is required, and the unfortunate criminal element. Again, 
it does not need to be a large percentage that largely prey on 
their own people. The border is de facto open. It is unchecked. 
It is unguarded.
    I was in the Del Rio Sector just a few weeks ago. There are 
supposed to be 180 agents on the line at any given time. There 
were zero for days because the cartels use surge tactics where 
they tell these 3,000 or 4,000 migrants cross right here, and 
then there is scores of miles, hundreds of miles of border that 
is completely unguarded, and it is a lot easier to smuggle your 
illegal narcotics when there is nobody stopping you.
    So, when you have these liberals that virtue signal about 
we are a sanctuary state, we are a sanctuary city. OK, then you 
house these folks in your states and in your cities. And for 
those folks out there that believe the Biden Administration's 
policies on immigration and the folks here on this panel in 
this Committee hearing, then you put them in your homes instead 
of being limousine liberals that it is somebody else's problem.
    Eric Adams, the Democratic mayor of New York, said that it 
is going to destroy New York City. So, by some people's 
definition on this Committee, that is a racist comment. He also 
said that of the 110,000 illegal migrants in the city at the 
time of this quote, it would cost New York $12 billion. Well, 
by that math, it is going to cost Texas, my state, a quarter of 
a trillion dollars, but that is OK if it is Texas.
    So, you can either address this problem, or pretend it does 
not exist by keeping your heads in the collective woke sand. 
And if you do not address it, you are going to rue the day you 
did not because you saw folks like Tony Gonzalez, Monica De La 
Cruz, Mayra Flores being elected because the folks, the 
Hispanic Americans along the Southern border, are sick and 
tired of the cartels, the crime, the corruption, and the chaos, 
and they are leaving the Democratic Party in droves. You will 
rue the day when you lose the election in November of next 
year. I yield.
    Mr. LaTurner. Thank you. The Chair now recognizes 
Krishnamoorthi from Illinois. Oh, forgive me. Forgive me. Ms. 
Crockett from Texas.
    Ms. Crockett. Thank you so much. Texas on top of Texas. 
Very interesting. My colleague just mentioned that we should 
talk about facts instead of fallacies, so I do want to make 
sure that we address a couple of facts, starting with the fact 
that Republicans claim to be pro-life, but they are anything 
but, considering the fact that we just had a woman and her two 
children that died. They drowned in the state of Texas because 
our Governor decided that Federal authorities should not be 
allowed to actually try to save those people.
    Mr. Fallon. Bullshit. Bullshit.
    Mr. Raskin. Rule of order. Mr. Chairman, could you instruct 
the Member to not use profanity to interrupt other Members?
    Ms. Crockett. And can we not keep running down my time?
    Mr. LaTurner. We will hold your time. You will get it back. 
I will remind Members to have decorum during the hearing today. 
Ms. Crockett, you may continue. Please restore 10 seconds to 
her time.
    Ms. Crockett. The fact is these people died at our border 
in Texas on Friday. We are here today having a hearing, and the 
pro-life party does not want to talk about the fact that there 
was basically state-issued or sanctioned death at the Texas 
border. There can be nothing more inhumane than the fact that 
we have not even decided that we are going to discuss this on 
the pro-life side, but you know what? I do want to talk about 
some other facts that we have.
    Republicans cannot do the basic job that we are supposed to 
do. You see, in 2 days, we are scheduled to shut down. They 
cannot figure out how to do a budget because we are 6 months 
behind, but somehow they are going to solve this complex issue 
of immigration. I seriously doubt it. And to quote a great 
known as Riri, also known as Rihanna, ``How about we give a 
round of applause, a standing ovation,'' because we have 
absolutely had nothing more than performative politics. In 
fact, my Texas colleague just finished his comments by 
specifically talking about the election in November and who is 
going to win it. We are not here to campaign. We are supposed 
to be here to legislate, but we have done everything except for 
legislate.
    So, let us go through a few more facts. Democrats have 
introduced legitimate, sensible legislation to address what we 
are seeing. My colleagues on the other side of the aisle want 
to grandstand for political purposes rather than work with 
Democrats and fix an immigration system that has been broken 
for decades. Republicans continue to vilify people, including 
mothers and their children, and as I just said, we just lost a 
mother and her children. We also know that the gentlelady from 
Florida, who happens to be the only Member to give birth this 
session, specifically admitted that she actually wants a child 
separation policy. I cannot think of something more ironic than 
that particular Member specifically advocating for child 
separation policies.
    Republicans are yelling that states do not have the tools 
to help with migrants, but rather than work with Democrats, 
Republicans are targeting communities of color and Democratic 
cities like Chicago, New York, and Philadelphia. And while they 
say that it is about Democrat-run cities, I do want to point 
out another similarity that they have: these are cities that 
are run by African Americans. So, while I know that they love 
to pretend as if there are no racial undertones, it is just 
striking to me that we specifically are going after African 
American-run cities.
    And we talk about the Mayor of New York. I do not know when 
I have ever seen so much bipartisanship and agreement out of 
the Republicans, but they continue to talk about what the Mayor 
of New York has said. Let me tell you about somebody else who 
wants to speak out about New York, and I want to make sure that 
she understands that the Democrats are not the problem, but the 
Republicans are, and that is Cardi B. Cardi B specifically 
talked about her frustration because the Mayor came out and 
said that they do not have the resources that they need, but 
guess who has actually tried to give the resources to these 
cities and who has stood in obstruction? President Biden.
    To be clear, President Biden is trying to give state and 
local governments and nonprofits Federal resources to support 
temporary food, shelter, and other services, but MAGA House 
Republicans are refusing to give those cities and states those 
resources. President Biden has tried to put 1,300 more Border 
Patrol agents at the border to help, but Republicans have 
obstructed that request. Republicans want to cut the flow of 
fentanyl coming into the United States. President Biden has 
tried to give our border agents a hundred new cutting-edge 
inspection devices and add a thousand additional law 
enforcement personnel. Republicans obstructed that request. 
Honestly, I cannot tell if you all are for anything other than 
obstruction and cruelty.
    Just take a look at my Governor last week. He said, ``The 
only thing we are not doing is we are not shooting people who 
come across the border because, of course, the Biden 
Administration would charge us with murder.'' I know Governor 
Abbott does not understand the law, but let me say this: that 
absolutely would be murder. And with that, I will yield.
    Mr. LaTurner. The gentlelady yields back.
    Mr. Cloud. Mr. Chairman, I would like unanimous consent to 
submit this article, ``The Biden Administration Admits Migrant 
Drownings Occurred Before Border Patrol Alerted Texas 
Officials.''
    Mr. LaTurner. Without objection, so ordered.
    The Chair recognizes the gentlelady from Georgia, Ms. 
Greene.
    Ms. Greene. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I serve on the 
Homeland Security Committee, and we have been working very hard 
on an investigation into Secretary Mayorkas and his failures 
and willfulness to break our United States Federal laws in 
regard to the border. Just a few months ago, two of my own 
constituents, Jose and Isabel Lerma, were killed in a human 
smuggling pursuit. A 17-year-old illegal alien, likely working 
for the cartels, drove illegal aliens across the border, hit 
them head on. This lovely American couple from my district was 
killed on their way to visit family.
    We have Americans dying every single day, and all I hear 
from Democrats every time we talk about the border is they are 
worried about migrant rights, they claim they are concerned 
about children and women, and then they claim, in spite of all 
the evidence, in spite of the fact that over 10 million illegal 
aliens have crossed our border, in spite of the fact 1.9 
million people, illegal aliens are in our country, got-aways, 
we do not know who they are, we do not know where they are, we 
do not know what they are doing, and in spite of the fact that 
over 300 Americans are dying every single day from fentanyl 
overdose. The numbers do not lie, but the Democrats do.
    Now, this is interesting to me. Sitting in here earlier, I 
was listening to the discussion on jobs, and that the whole 
reason claimed by my colleagues on the other side of the aisle 
is that they want to bring in as many illegal aliens as 
possible, give them the amnesty, so they can fill jobs in 
America, and then they talked about that we have a population 
growth problem in the United States. They were talking about 
the real issue of it being the lowest population growth and why 
this is a problem.
    Well, I think we can all say that if maybe, perhaps 63 
million people were not murdered in the womb, we would not have 
a population growth problem, would we? That is not women's 
reproductive rights. That is called abortion. It is called 
murder, and that has led to, yes, a population growth in 
America. But Democrats claimed that we have got to replace 
Americans with the illegal aliens to fill jobs--that is their 
solution, that is their solution--and take away jobs from 
Americans. That is their solution.
    The Biden Administration is guilty of the largest human 
trafficking operation in history. This is human trafficking. I 
just traveled in airports across the country just the past few 
days. You know, what I saw in our airports, migrants, illegal 
aliens all over in the airports. Do you know who is paying for 
them to travel? United States taxpayers, paying for them to 
travel. We are so sick of this. Everybody is sick of it. Oh, 
but children in cages? Is that what we want to talk about? 
Crying over children in cages, but yet, the Biden 
Administration has lost, Mr. Homan, how many children have they 
lost?
    Mr. Homan. Nearly 100,000.
    Ms. Greene. Nearly 100,000. But they have accused you and 
former President Trump and the previous Administration of all 
kinds of horrific things. How do you feel about that?
    Mr. Homan. It is ridiculous. I testified earlier, illegal 
immigration was down 83 percent toward the end of Trump 
Administration because of all the policy put in place. When 83 
percent less people come in, how many women are not being 
raped? How many children are not dying on the border? How many 
Americans are not dying from fentanyl overdose because the 
Border Patrol is on the line seizing more fentanyl? How many 
women were not sex-trafficked? How many billions of dollars did 
cartels not make?
    President Trump's policies saved lives, saved lives. The 
wall saves lives. Why? Because the most vulnerable, the 
families and the females and children, they cannot climb the 
wall. They are going to go places where there is not a wall, 
and what is going to be there? Border Patrol agents to deal 
with the humanitarian and health issues that are going to come 
across. Our policies save lives. Record number Americans have 
died on this Administration with fentanyl. A record amount of 
migrants have died on the Southwest border, illegal aliens, 
1,700, read about that. These policies are not humane. They are 
killing Americans, killing migrants at record levels.
    Ms. Greene. That is right. Killing people every single day 
while forcing the American taxpayer to pay for the human 
trafficking, that is exactly what the Biden Administration is 
doing.
    I am looking forward to the next Administration where we 
are going to have the largest deportation system that has ever 
been witnessed in human history because the American people 
deserve to have a safe country, safe borders, and I will finish 
up with this. We will be impeaching Secretary Mayorkas because 
he has broken the laws, and these are the laws that Joe Biden, 
himself, put in place. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I yield back.
    Mr. Grothman. [Presiding.] Thank you very much. You have 
Mr. Goldman over there? Yes, there he is.
    Mr. Goldman. Yes. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you 
for our witnesses for coming here today. I think one thing that 
gets confused a lot when we have these hearings is that there 
are allegations that Democrats and President Biden do not want 
to secure the border, want open borders. In fact, my friends on 
the other side of the aisle have said that they are trying to 
facilitate the fentanyl trade and fentanyl from coming into the 
country. But the irony, and my colleague from Texas, Mr. 
Fallon, said this at the end of his 5 minutes is he questions 
whether or not the Biden Administration is serious about 
addressing the problems at the border.
    Well, it is quite ironic because right now, this very day 
and for the last 5 weeks, the Biden Administration, the White 
House, and Secretary Mayorkas have been negotiating with a 
bipartisan group of senators to actually address the problems 
at the border, but you know who has not been involved in that? 
House Republicans, and instead, what they are doing, as you 
just heard from Ms. Greene, is trying to impeach Secretary 
Mayorkas for his failure to address the border while he is 
negotiating to address the border. And then, even if there is a 
bipartisan agreement in the Senate, the Republican leadership 
in the House has already determined that it is dead on arrival. 
They have not seen the agreement, but they just know that it is 
dead on arrival. Does that, Mr. Bier, sound to you like someone 
or some party or some group of people who are trying to address 
the problems at the border?
    Mr. Bier. This Administration has been trying from day one 
to get attention of Congress to try to pass immigration 
legislation, and they have gotten no takers.
    Mr. Goldman. Because, am I correct, Mr. Bier, that the 
fundamental core problems that cause some of the issues at the 
border require legislative fixes? They cannot be done through 
solely executive action. Is that correct?
    Mr. Bier. Absolutely. They need new authorities to deal 
with the legal immigration system, in particular.
    Mr. Goldman. Now, Mr. Edlow, I know you ran USCIS, and you 
have testified about how the backlog of asylum applications is 
a significant problem because it incentivizes even those who 
may not qualify to try to come here because they will be able 
to stay for years. Is that a fair assessment of the concern 
about the backlog of the asylum applicants?
    Mr. Edlow. That was not what I was saying about the 
affirmative asylum applicants, but as far as defensive people 
coming across? Yes, they get to come in. They will eventually 
get work authorization. Actually, under some of these 
regulations, they get it very quickly.
    Mr. Goldman. Well, but regardless of when they get it, they 
apply for asylum and it takes years, right? And so, you would 
agree with me that fewer than 50 percent of asylum applicants 
are granted asylum when their case is finally heard. Is that 
right?
    Mr. Edlow. Again, I am not sure. We are talking about the 
people coming in from the border? Or are you talking about 
total? Because those are different numbers.
    Mr. Goldman. Well, I am talking about the total, but the 
point is, is that there is a backlog, and as the head of USCIS, 
do you think that 1,600 more asylum officers to process asylum 
applications would help to reduce the backlog, and, therefore, 
not incentivize more people to come?
    Mr. Edlow. If those officers were going to be placed for 
affirmative asylum applications for people who have been in the 
pipeline for a number of years, yes. However, that is not what 
they are doing.
    Mr. Goldman. Great. Because you know what was in President 
Biden's supplemental? Seven hundred and fifty-five million 
dollars for USCIS to hire 1,600 asylum officers to go through 
the backlog. Now, Mr. Homan, do you think that it would be 
helpful to hire additional CBP officers, Border Patrol agents, 
or border processing coordinators so Border Patrol agents can 
do their job and try to secure the border and fight drug 
trafficking and human trafficking coming over the border? Would 
those additional officers have helped you when you were heading 
that department?
    Mr. Homan. Hiring more officers to process more quickly, 
release more quickly, are just going to bring more people.
    Mr. Goldman. I'm not asking about--what I asked, I asked 
separately about CBP officers, HSI officers, Border Patrol 
agents, security enforcement officers. Would that help to 
secure the border?
    Mr. Homan. This is not a resource issue. It is a policy 
issue.
    Mr. Goldman. That is not my question. My question is, would 
it be helpful? Would it be helpful? The answer is of course----
    Mr. Homan. Of course, adding more Border Patrol agents is 
always helpful.
    Mr. Goldman. Exactly, and yet, this Republican Party does 
not want to add $4.46 billion that was in the President's 
supplemental appropriations request to go to the Customs and 
Border Protection to fight the fentanyl trade, to fight human 
trafficking, to try to take away the American-made guns from 
the cartels who control both, and this Republican Party will 
not do anything. I yield back.
    Mr. Grothman. Just a minute. We are going to have a hard 
time because we are going to, just so you know, we are going to 
wind up on the Floor here. So, we want to squeeze in as many 
people as possible. Mr. Cloud?
    Mr. Cloud. Thank you, Chair. Thank you all for being here. 
As we know, the executive branch has one job, and that is to 
enforce the laws of the land, not to make the laws of the land. 
This Administration has all but given up on securing the 
border, and now it is actually deploying resources to counter 
states like Texas that are actually doing the Federal's job in 
doing their best effort to secure the borders.
    We talk to people on the ground. I was there just 2 weeks 
ago, and the way they described it, they said right now it is 
like you are holding a bucket in front of an open fire hydrant, 
and what our friends on the left want is more buckets. What you 
need to do is cap the fire hydrant, and what we have done, and 
what we have seen the Biden Administration do, is turn our 
Customs and Border Protection into a customs and border 
processing, much to the disdain of many of the people who are 
there serving and doing their best effort to deal with the 
Biden Administration.
    My district in South Texas has felt the consequences 
firsthand for years. Just recently, Goliad County law 
enforcement reported finding 16 different cartel stash sites, 
one of them the largest in the country at the time, connected 
to drug activity, human trafficking, or both. They found them 
on private property, and, of course, they were being operated 
without the owner's permission. Also in my district, just a few 
weeks ago, a 6-year-old girl was murdered in her own home by a 
man who had overstayed his visa and should have been subject to 
removal. No doubt the border has been challenging for a while, 
but Trump was able to make a lot of headway and get as close as 
we have been for a while in securing our border. He succeeded 
where I would say the Biden Administration failed, but that 
would assume that their goals were to actually secure the 
border.
    Mr. Homan, could you explain because there is a lot of 
effort from this Administration to blame Texas, to blame 
Congress, saying we need more money, we need more authorities. 
Could you explain the difference between the authorities and 
resources that the Trump Administration had at their disposal 
versus the Biden Administration?
    Mr. Homan. Yes, and of course, and you hit right on point, 
your first statement. When we talk about more Border Patrol 
agents, of course we can always use more Border Patrol agents, 
but not to carry buckets. More Border Patrol agents are only 
meaningful if we secure the border and let them do their 
national security job. But look, the difference is clear. I 
mean, under the Trump Administration, illegal immigration was 
down to a 40-, 45-year level, depends on what timeframe we 
looked at, and he did it because Remain in Mexico program, 
people were still claiming asylum, but they were not going to 
be released in United States until they had the hearing.
    We had the first safe country agreements, agreements with 
Central American countries of Guatemala, Honduras, and El 
Salvador, that if you are really escaping fear and persecution 
in El Salvador and you get to a free country, have you escaped 
that fear and persecution? You should be claiming asylum there 
because it is not about asylum. We know most of the asylum 
claims in the Southern border are fraudulent because most of 
them will get orders of removal. And the wall works. You know, 
people want to say the wall does not work. The wall works. The 
wall takes the most vulnerable people, women, and children who 
cannot get over that wall, takes them to a place where there is 
not a wall, where Border Patrol is there to deal with the 
humanitarian issue.
    And last, I will say for the men and women of the Board 
Patrol, if I may. I have seen videos in the last few days where 
people are going down the border, screaming at Board Patrol 
agents that they are racist, they are trafficking women and 
children. The only humanitarian group on that border are the 
men and women wearing green. These are patriots, they are 
heroes, they are the finest law enforcement officers in the 
world, and they are being attacked by the left and some on the 
right as being traffickers. These men and women, their morale 
is in the toilet. They are doing everything they can. They have 
saved thousands of lives every year. So, for both sides, I saw 
a video this morning. It just agonized me that you want to pick 
on the men and women on Border Patrol who put their lives on 
the line every day to defend this Nation. God bless the Border 
Patrol. I salute what they are doing.
    Mr. Cloud. Yes, thank you very much. Thank you for 
mentioning that. They are giving their best effort under 
tremendous, tremendous circumstances and an Administration that 
does not really support them. So, but to be clear, the Biden 
Administration did not lose any authorities that the Trump 
Administration had, right?
    Mr. Homan. The Remain in Mexico program was found by the 
highest courts in land to be legal. They could institute that 
tomorrow, and it would be a game changer.
    Mr. Cloud. Right, and they have just as much, if not more, 
resources available at their disposal from what----
    Mr. Homan. It is not a resource issue. It is a policy 
issue.
    Mr. Cloud. Yes.
    Mr. Homan. They change the policies and get back to the 
Trump-era policies, they could solve 85 percent of this 
problem.
    Mr. Cloud. Now, interestingly, an entire cottage industry 
surrounding this catastrophe has budded up, from processing to 
transporting, the NGO's that are happening. A lot has been made 
of family separation, and you have mentioned it, but if you can 
mention again, how many children has the Biden Administration 
lost? And then could you speak to the lives lost on the journey 
as well and the human side. I know I have visited a facility in 
my district where 30 to 50 percent of the young women admitted 
to being assaulted along the journey.
    Mr. Homan. Nearly 100,000 children are missing. This 
Administration released them to so-called sponsors we cannot 
find, but we do know we found many working the midnight shift 
in meatpacking plants, many in forced labor, many in indentured 
servitude. We know that we have lost right around 1,700 aliens 
who have died on U.S. soil making this trip. That is not 
counting the Darien Gap, which is the thousands in Mexico and 
Central America.
    When you make promises that you can cross this border 
illegally, you will be released, you will get work 
authorization, and you cannot be removed because ICE cannot 
remove somebody that is in the country illegally just for being 
here illegally. The Secretary said that. When you make those 
types of promises, plus free healthcare, the most vulnerable 
people in the world are going to put themselves in harm's way 
of the cartels, and that is why record amounts, not only 
Americans, are dying from fentanyl, 112,000 last count, a 
record number of migrants are dying every day on the border.
    And I said earlier, while we are here talking today, women 
are being sexually assaulted and a child is going to die 
tonight because they think this border is open and they are 
going to keep coming.
    Mr. Cloud. Thank you. I believe my time is up. I yield 
back.
    Chairman Comer. [Presiding.] The Chair now recognizes Mr. 
Khanna from California.
    Mr. Khanna. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Mr. Homan, you have said 
that you plan to lead the largest mass deportation operation in 
history. Is that your aspiration?
    Mr. Homan. The largest illegal migration crisis on the 
border is going to have to result in the largest deportation 
operation because most of them will get ordered removal.
    Mr. Khanna. I am just using your words. I guess you stand 
by that.
    Mr. Homan. Yes, absolutely.
    Mr. Khanna. What is that? Does that mean that you are 
telling the American public--I am just trying to understand--if 
there are 10, 11, 12 million undocumented, I do not know how 
many do you think, any one of those folks, if you are in charge 
is going to face potential deportation?
    Mr. Homan. I think if you are in the country illegally, you 
need to be concerned because you are in the country illegally.
    Mr. Khanna. So, you are telling basically any American 
today or any undocumented person here today, 11 million, that 
your goal, if you get power again, is you are going to lead the 
largest mass deportation of all of them, correct?
    Mr. Homan. The biggest illegal alien crisis on the Southern 
border remains that people cross----
    Mr. Khanna. I did not----
    Mr. Homan. No, no. You have to put it in perspective. If 
you believe in due process and have the right to claim asylum, 
have the right to due process and see a court, when those final 
orders are issued, if they are not executed, then what the hell 
are we doing? Shut down the----
    Mr. Khanna. I just want people to know what happens if you 
come into power. You have been pretty candid about it.
    Mr. Homan. Yes.
    Mr. Khanna. And so, you know, I think it is important for 
people to understand. Now, I assume that you reject this Great 
Replacement theory, correct?
    Mr. Homan. The numbers are the numbers.
    Mr. Khanna. Now, this conspiracy theory of Great 
Replacement, that somehow there is an intentional effort to 
replace white Americans with Americans who look like me, you 
reject that theory, correct?
    Mr. Homan. Yes. I do not think it is about replacement.
    Mr. Khanna. Mr. Edlow, do you clearly reject the Great 
Replacement theory?
    Mr. Edlow. Yes. That is not what this is about.
    Mr. Khanna. Would you reject Charlie Kirk, who has said 
that the Great Replacement theory is something that more 
Republicans should embrace? Would you reject his 
characterization?
    Mr. Edlow. I am not aware of his characterization at all.
    Mr. Khanna. If he is advocating for the Great Replacement 
theory?
    Mr. Edlow. I can only speak to myself. I am not----
    Mr. Khanna. Would you reject any person who advocates for 
the Great Replacement theory?
    Mr. Edlow. I am not supporting----
    Mr. Khanna. Mr. Homan, would you reject Charlie Kirk?
    Mr. Homan. I do not know what his intention is. I mean----
    Mr. Khanna. Would you commit to not going on ``The Charlie 
Kirk Show'' again if he is advocating the Great Replacement 
theory? And what Charlie Kirk has said is that he was pleased 
that Vivek Ramaswamy finally talked about the Great Replacement 
theory on the campaign trail, and the Great Replacement theory 
is basically that there is some intentional idea of replacing 
White Americans with Brown and Black Americans for additional 
votes or the diluting of America. You have rejected that?
    Mr. Homan. I would have to have a discussion with Charlie 
Kirk and find out what he means by what he says.
    Mr. Khanna. But you reject the theory, correct?
    Mr. Homan. It depends on what his meaning of his theory is. 
What does he mean by that?
    Mr. Khanna. Well, I mean----
    Mr. Homan. I mean, I read stuff in the media every day 
about me that is not true.
    Mr. Khanna. What is it that you would think is a reasonable 
view of it?
    Mr. Homan. Again, I do not think what is happening is 
replacing White Americans. I think it is bringing in large 
group of people who the left thinks will be future Democratic 
voters or going to change them out with the Census numbers, 
going to change the seats in the House and all that is done. 
But I would have to talk to Mr. Kirk and find what his views 
are and what he means by----
    Mr. Khanna. But you believe there is an intentional effort? 
By who? To try to get more Democratic voters? I mean, what is 
it that your belief is?
    Mr. Homan. I have been asked why I think they support open 
borders and bringing millions of people in, and as I testified 
earlier--you were not here--I do not understand why anybody 
would want an unsecure border. I do not see any downside in a 
secure border, so there has to be some sort of political----
    Mr. Khanna. The last question on this is, is that just your 
speculation? I mean, that is a very serious charge to launch on 
it----
    Mr. Homan. It is just one option out of many. Do I have 
direct evidence it is happening? No.
    Mr. Khanna. And who do you think is doing it, the 
Democratic Party operatives or other people? I mean, who is 
leading this in your view?
    Mr. Homan. You know, I think you need to ask the 
Administration why did he open the border, and why did he want 
millions of people crossing the border be released in the 
United States. That is a question for them.
    Mr. Khanna. Mr. Bier, do you have any sense that this 
Administration does not believe in secure borders, and what 
would be the top three policies that you would implement to 
secure the border?
    Mr. Bier. Well, first of all, this Administration is 
removing record numbers of people and, in fact, a higher 
percentage of people who crossed the border than were removed 
in 2019 and 2020. So, the idea that they have no interest in 
this, they do not want to remove people, I mean, if they did 
that, why did they have cages? Why do they have all the things 
that you have talked about? It is logistical issues. Congress 
has funded 34,000 beds, and that is how many people arrive in 4 
days at the border. That is why people are being released.
    The solution to this is legal immigration. We need to 
resolve how we want people to come to this country, have a 
conversation about that, and once we agree that people are 
good, immigrants contribute to this country, then we can have a 
conversation about how should they come, what is the way, what 
is the mechanism, because right now there is not any for the 
people who are showing up at our border.
    Mr. Khanna. Thank you.
    Chairman Comer. The gentleman's time has expired.
    The Chair now recognizes Mr. Timmons from South Carolina.
    Mr. Timmons. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I just want to point 
out that this is the U.S. Congress, this is the Committee on 
Oversight and Accountability, and we are having a hearing 
titled, ``The Biden Administration's Regulatory and 
Policymaking Efforts to Undermine U.S. Immigration Law.'' I 
have heard from my colleagues across the aisle a number of 
different lines of logic surrounding this hearing, and I just 
do not understand where they are coming from.
    In the last 3 years, we have had millions and millions of 
non-Americans cross the Southern border illegally claiming 
asylum. Mr. Homan, what is the number that you use because I 
have heard 5, 6, 7 million people in the last 3 years. What is 
the number you----
    Mr. Homan. Encounters?
    Mr. Timmons. Correct.
    Mr. Homan. We are just short of 8 million.
    Mr. Timmons. And you are using a term. What is that term?
    Mr. Homan. Encounters.
    Mr. Timmons. Encounters.
    Mr. Homan. Come across the border.
    Mr. Timmons. So, you can just estimate how many people have 
been released into the country?
    Mr. Homan. We know at least 2.4 million.
    Mr. Timmons. And how many got-aways do you think there are? 
How many people did we----
    Mr. Homan. One-point-nine million known got-aways.
    Mr. Timmons. OK. So, let us go back. Before Biden was sworn 
in, Trump had a number of policies in place, Remain in Mexico. 
He was actively constructing a physical barrier across the 
Southern border. He was using technology to surveil the 
Southern border and the Border Patrol was funded, and they were 
able to manage their caseload to a fairly good degree under his 
Administration. Is that true to say? Would you agree with that?
    Mr. Homan. Yes.
    Mr. Timmons. So, day one, Biden gets sworn into office, and 
he signs an executive order ending Remain in Mexico. He altered 
the asylum and the parole laws to make them more favorable. He 
facilitated and enticed people all over the planet to go to 
Mexico to then cross the Southern border illegally and claim 
asylum for whatever they think is a credible fear, which that 
definition is constantly changed. But the fact is, the Border 
Patrol does not have the ability to say that is not credible 
fear. You get a court date years down the line, and we spend 
our taxpayer dollars to send these millions of people all over 
our country. And Heritage estimates that the cost annually of 
that is $400 billion. I actually think it is far higher because 
when these people are living in our country, they are using our 
healthcare system. They are using our education system. They 
are using our infrastructure, and we do not really have a good 
estimate. I mean, I think it is probably closer to $750 billion 
annually. What do you think the cost of Biden's policies are, 
taxpayer dollars wise, annually in this country?
    Mr. Homan. I have no idea.
    Mr. Timmons. Would you agree it is hundreds of billions----
    Mr. Homan. Oh, absolutely. Absolutely, and your point is--
--
    Mr. Timmons. OK.
    Mr. Homan [continuing]. Asylum at the border. You are 
exactly right. There is massive asylum fraud going on. Even the 
Democratic expert next to me has said they are coming in for a 
job. They are coming for a job, that does not qualify for 
asylum.
    Mr. Timmons. And I just want to point out, I am fully in 
favor of immigration. We are $34 trillion in debt. The only way 
we can solve that is by growing the economy, which involves 
people coming to this country, but they got to come through the 
front door. And I was in Eagle Pass, Texas 2 weeks ago, and as 
we were giving a press conference, a family of four almost 
drowned, and they were saved, and they did not die. But just 2 
days ago, people drowned in the river because they are coming 
in illegally, because they are not coming through a port of 
entry, so we have a major problem. It is a crisis, and the 
costs of these policies, it is hard to even put a number on it 
financially, but then you have lives, you have lives, as you 
have talked about.
    The No. 1 cause of death for Americans aged 18 to 45 is 
fentanyl overdose. Hundreds of thousands of people have died in 
the last 3 years. We have already gone over the financial cost, 
taxpayer dollars. The last thing I will say is just misery. The 
amount of misery of people coming in this country illegally, 
whether it is because of indentured servitude because the 
cartels are profiting tens of billions, hundreds of billions of 
dollars off of this, it is just awful, and all of this is 
because of President Biden signing his damn name. All he has 
got to do is sign it again. Reinstate Remain in Mexico. We were 
in the Del Rio border sector with the head of the border 
sector, and he said if we reinstate Remain in Mexico, if this 
President, President Biden, reinstates Remain in Mexico, 75 
percent of the problem will be gone.
    And that is why we are here. We are here because our 
country is drowning in insane amounts of illegal immigration. I 
am going to read you a quote, and I am going to let you guess 
who it is from. ``I don't see an ending to this. I don't see an 
ending to this. This issue will destroy our city. We have a $12 
billion deficit that we are going to have to cut even more. 
Every service in this city is going to be impacted, all of 
us.'' You think that was from somewhere on a border town in 
Texas?
    Mr. Homan. New York City mayor.
    Mr. Timmons. New York City mayor. It is the New York City 
mayor. Mr. President, you got to sign your damn name. Reinstate 
Remain in Mexico, solve this problem. I yield back.
    Chairman Comer. The Chair now recognizes Ms. Porter from 
California.
    Ms. Porter. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Republicans seem, as Mr. 
Timmons just did, to acknowledge that immigration can benefit 
our economy, and they seem to say the problem is unlawful 
arrival. So, let me take them for a minute at their word. And 
most Americans agree with this, by the way, that lawful 
immigration is a boon to our country and to our economy. Let us 
understand why, and then let us look at why that is not the 
solution to this problem. Mr. Bier is the U.S. population 
growth rate declining?
    Mr. Bier. It is down 90 percent from its historic highs.
    Ms. Porter. OK. Can you have a growing economy and a 
declining birthrate in the long term?
    Mr. Bier. You can have economic growth with a declining 
birth rate, but it is more difficult.
    Ms. Porter. OK. And I think we can all look at examples 
around the world of countries that are struggling with this. 
So, our population will start to decline in just a few years, 
in 2030, if current immigration and demographic trends 
continue, correct?
    Mr. Bier. That is right.
    Ms. Porter. So, if population does begin to decline, what 
are some likely harms to the U.S. economy?
    Mr. Bier. Well, look, you look at the Social Security 
system, if we do not have another 30 million workers available 
by 2034, then the Social Security Administration expects us to 
have, then we are facing a situation where taxes are going to 
have to go up a lot in order to fund the system, and that is 
going to be a catastrophic hit to taxpayers and/or to Social 
Security benefits, one or the other. So that is one example.
    Obviously, economic growth is going to be impacted as more 
people retire. We have heard about the employment rate going 
down. Well, that is because people are retiring, not because 
fewer people are working. If you look at the prime age 
employment rate, it is high, but that is not enough to make up 
for all the retirees that are no longer working.
    Ms. Porter. And, Mr. Bier, collectively, even if we just 
look at Social Security, forget collectively. If we just focus 
on Social Security, we are talking about in the next few 
decades, trillions of dollars of shortfalls that could 
effectively decimate Social Security.
    Mr. Bier. Yes, absolutely. You are talking about over $12 
trillion deficit in the short term.
    Ms. Porter. OK. So then let us say we agree that we need 
lawful immigration, and I hear our witnesses and our colleagues 
on the other side saying, well, lawful immigration, I am for 
that, I am just not for unlawful immigration, so let us talk 
about this. Of the people who apply, who use the system, and 
they follow the rules, which I think Americans think we should, 
they apply for a green card, what percentage of them get it?
    Mr. Bier. That is 3 percent. So, 97 percent do not get one.
    Ms. Porter. Three percent. I hear all the time from people 
that they would like people who want to seek a life in this 
country to follow the rules and ``get in line,'' but there is 
no line at all for many, many countries. Can you explain that?
    Mr. Bier. Right. So, some countries, you know, you can 
apply for the lottery, right, you know, if you are from a 
country without a large, legal immigration flow already to the 
United States, but for many countries--Mexico, India, China, 
Central American countries, Venezuela, now--they are banned 
from even applying for that that green card lottery. So, there 
is no direct path for them. If they do not have a U.S. citizen 
family member in the United States, they are out of luck unless 
they are an extremely highly skilled individual. You know, 
Ph.D., master's degree in STEM has a chance, you know, again 
through the H-1B lottery. So, we got lotteries on top of 
lotteries, even for the highest skilled people.
    Ms. Porter. So, I think this is a really important point 
for the American people to understand and really important for 
Democrats to stake out here what is our position on 
immigration, and it is that immigration is a huge benefit to 
our economy fromwhich we all benefit, whether we are 
generations passed from coming to this country, or new 
immigrants, every one, every American benefits from a strong, 
stable, globally competitive economy, and we have to have legal 
immigration to get there. That is platform one, in my view.
    The second platform is we want people to follow the rules, 
to have an orderly system, but we have to be honest. Despite 
the efforts of the Biden Administration, there is still--
because Congress has failed, Republicans and Democrats have 
failed our economy and the American people, because we have not 
created an orderly system, you cannot wait in line if there is 
no line. You cannot take your turn if we do not provide a 
chance to get to the front, to get a chance to apply.
    So, the fundamental problem here is we have a broken 
immigration system, and what we are seeing in terms of unlawful 
immigration. We should not be blaming people seeking a better 
life. We ought to be willing to look in the mirror in this body 
in the Capitol and take responsibility for our failure to 
update the immigration system and to create an orderly way to 
boost our economy. I yield back.
    Chairman Comer. The Chair recognizes Ms. Boebert from 
Colorado.
    Ms. Boebert. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The failure in our 
immigration system is a wide-open Southern border. There are 
folks who are waiting in a so-called line. As Mr. Bier said, 
most countries do not have a line, they have a lottery, and 
they are banned from even applying. We have the most generous 
system in the world for bringing in legal immigrants into our 
country.
    And it is so interesting, fascinating, to hear my 
colleagues on the other side of the aisle debate this and 
counter every other argument that they have in their policies. 
They are saying they want economic growth, and the only way to 
get so is through indentured servitude, is to putting moms and 
their children in the hands of cartel who, Mr. Homan, you have 
said that it is the cartel who have operational control at our 
Southern border. Is that not correct, sir?
    Mr. Homan. They absolutely do.
    Ms. Boebert. So, we are going to risk putting lives in the 
hands of the cartel to bolster our economy. My colleague just 
asked if our birth rate was declining here in America, and the 
answer was yes. Well, of course it is. We have nearly 1 million 
abortions in our country a year, over 60 million abortions 
since this has been illegal, and if that is an issue, well 
then, we need to address that.
    If we want an incline in our birth rate, well, let us look 
at our own country first rather than putting folks in the hands 
of the cartel and putting their lives in danger so they can do, 
as my colleagues on the other side of the aisle say, pick our 
fruit, pick our crops. Aren't the folks who are coming here to 
seek the American Dream deserving of the American Dream, or are 
they only deserving to clean our toilets, fold our beds in our 
hotels, the sheets, and pick our crops? I think the American 
Dream is worth much more than that, and that is why we are the 
most generous Nation in the world when it comes to legal 
immigration, accepting nearly 1 million legal immigrants each 
year.
    Now, Mr. Homan, as someone who oversaw a significant 
downturn in illegal border crossings under the Trump 
Administration, what do you believe has been the biggest driver 
in skyrocketing increase of illegal immigration through our 
Southern border under the Biden Administration?
    Mr. Homan. The Biden Administration's policies, catch and 
release. They know if they cross the border illegally, they 
will be processed in record time because the Administration 
keeps sending more resources at the border not to secure the 
border but to process and release.
    Ms. Boebert. Right.
    Mr. Homan. As long as, you know, you can cross the border, 
be released, get flown or transported to the city of their 
choice at taxpayer's dime, get lodging, healthcare, three 
squares today, they are going to keep coming because there is 
no consequence.
    Ms. Boebert. Thank you, Mr. Homan. Now, in Colorado, we 
have seen fentanyl deaths absolutely explode, and thousands of 
illegal aliens shipped in into my state of Colorado. How do you 
think that the American family has been most impacted by the 
failure of this Administration to secure a border and keep 
this, what I consider a weapon of mass destruction, out of our 
country?
    Mr. Homan. Well, it is a poison, and there are a couple of 
things. First of all, I have not seen this Administration hold 
China accountable for providing the precursors to the cartels 
in Mexico used to create this poison. I have not seen any 
accountability from this Administration holding Mexico 
accountable for not taking on the criminal cartels. And the 
fact is, while 300 children are going to die every day, 
hundreds every day, and this is not going to stop with open 
borders. Because despite what people have said here today, I 
have done this for 34 years. I have investigated criminal 
cartels. Much of the fentanyl is coming through the port of 
entry. I do not argue that. Most of the fentanyl is seized at a 
port of entry because that is where they stop every vehicle. 
But between the port of entries and maritime from the Coast 
Guard, you cannot make a statement saying most of the fentanyl 
comes through the port of entry when you do not know what the 
hell is coming between the port of entry, especially when most 
Border Patrol agents are no longer on patrol.
    I testified earlier, I had been to several sectors in the 
past year where every single Border Patrol agent was pulled off 
the line for days, a hundred miles of border. The criminal 
cartels are going to use the road of least resistance, and that 
is where there is not a law enforcement officer.
    Ms. Boebert. Yes, Mr. Homan, that is a great point because 
we do hear about the ports of entry a lot in this Committee 
room. But we do not know what is coming across the border where 
it is wide open and there are not Border Patrol agents. And I 
love that you also highlighted the fact that the funding that 
is going to our border is simply to process more illegal 
aliens, not to secure our border.
    Now going back to Colorado, Jose Guadalupe Menjivar-Alas, 
an illegal alien, and forgive my pronunciation of his name, but 
he is an illegal alien who has four previous convictions in 
Colorado for alcohol-related driving offenses and was 
previously deported 4 times and recently crashed his vehicle 
and killed a 47-year-old woman, Melissa Powell, and her 16-
year-old son. The Biden regime absolutely has blood on its 
hands for their failure to secure our border and actually hold 
this criminal alien accountable and is resulting in the deaths 
of women and children here.
    There are many excuses that we hear from the other side, 
and, unfortunately, one of them is to bolster our economy and 
that our Social Security system is going to decline. Mr. Bier, 
you said that we have to raise taxes on the American citizen?
    Mr. Bier. No, no, definitely not.
    Ms. Boebert. You said taxes will have to go up to fund the 
Federal Government.
    Mr. Bier. That is what I expect Congress will do.
    Ms. Boebert. Oh, well, if I am here, we will not.
    Mr. Bier. Good. Thank you.
    Ms. Boebert. But this is something that we have to address 
so we are not having to fund $200 million annually in illegal 
aliens in my state of Colorado alone. Gentlemen, I thank you so 
much for your time here, for your testimoneys, and for getting 
information to the American people, and I hope we get the 
Southern border secured quickly.
    Chairman Comer. The Chair now recognize Mr. Donalds from 
Florida.
    Mr. Donalds. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Gentlemen, thank you 
for coming out today. I really appreciate it.
    Mr. Edlow, real quick. It was said in previous testimony 
that roughly 3 percent of people who apply through the legal 
process of coming into the United States through the green card 
program--3 percent of all that apply actually get approved. Is 
that accurate? Is that an accurate description?
    Mr. Edlow. I have not heard that number, so I do not want 
to talk about this percentage itself. I can tell you, 
Congressman, there are close to a million people that get green 
cards every year through the various pathways, and plus all the 
people that come in, have applied for asylum or have gotten in 
through refugee status, and then ultimately became permanent 
residents, green card holders at that point, too. So, there is 
a robust process by which people are becoming green card 
holders every single year.
    Mr. Donalds. So, there is a robust process upon which 
people are coming into the United States.
    Mr. Edlow. Yes.
    Mr. Donalds. Mr. Bier, you know, I saw you over there, 
heard your testimony over there. Do you agree with that 
statement?
    Mr. Bier. Oh, absolutely not. If you compare the United 
States to other countries, it would take about 70 million 
people showing up in the United States tomorrow to get our 
immigrant share of our population to equal what we see in 
Australia, 35 million to get to where it is in Canada. The 
United States is an outlier for having a restrictive 
immigration policy.
    Mr. Donalds. Mr. Bier, do you think it is the appropriate 
for the American Government to model that of Australia and 
other countries around the world?
    Mr. Bier. I think we should do what is in our best 
interest, and I think immigration can benefit the United States 
if done legally and in an orderly manner.
    Mr. Donalds. Mr. Bier, do you think it is in the Nation's 
best interest to have a massively open Southern border that is 
largely controlled by the drug cartels?
    Mr. Bier. Absolutely not.
    Mr. Donalds. So, Mr. Bier, a followup question to that. Do 
you think it is wise for the Biden Administration to reverse 
its protocols at the Southern border?
    Mr. Bier. Its own protocols?
    Mr. Donalds. Yes.
    Mr. Bier. I do not understand.
    Mr. Donalds. Do you think----
    Mr. Bier. Why would they reverse its own protocols?
    Mr. Donalds. Well, let us go back. You just said that the 
current situation at the Southern border is not in the Nation's 
interest. It is not wise for the Nation to have that.
    Mr. Bier. Yes.
    Mr. Donalds. And since the basic predicate of this hearing 
by any objective measure is that the policy prescriptions by 
Joe Biden since he became President has led to a massively open 
Southern border, do you believe it is in the Nation's interest 
for President Biden to reverse course on his policy 
prescriptions when he became President on January 20, 2021?
    Mr. Bier. I do not agree with the premise. His policies did 
not cause this.
    Mr. Donalds. So, his policies have not allowed for 3 
million entrants into the country through wide open asylum and 
disassociation from detention?
    Mr. Bier. Sure, people definitely came. I do not dispute 
the numbers.
    Mr. Donalds. Do you deny that----
    Mr. Bier. Biden's policies do not----
    Mr. Donalds. Do you deny the fact that the drug cartels are 
going to make $12 billion a year?
    Mr. Bier. Yes.
    Mr. Donalds. Trafficking people into the United States?
    Mr. Bier. Yes. We should defund the cartels by letting 
people come to this country legally. Then they would not have 
to hire a cartel man.
    Mr. Donalds. Mr. Bier, how would they cross the Southern 
border, which is largely controlled by the drug cartels on the 
Mexican side of the border? How would they trespass that?
    Mr. Bier. They would get on a plane. They would get a visa 
and get on a plane.
    Mr. Donalds. So, what you are advocating for is that the 
policy of the United States of America is that people can 
basically hop an airline or come to the United States of their 
own volition and free will?
    Mr. Bier. If they get vetted by the U.S. State Department, 
what is wrong with that?
    Mr. Donalds. Do you believe the U.S. State Department has 
the capability of vetting that many people?
    Mr. Bier. Absolutely. All legal immigrants are paying fees 
in order to get vetted. They want to be vetted----
    Mr. Donalds. Mr. Bier, we are talking about same State 
Department under Tony Blinken that could not evacuate 10,000 
Americans from Afghanistan, that could not evacuate Americans 
out of Israel, where you had Members of Congress go over to 
Israel to get 246 Americans out because the State Department 
was busy sending text messages and dropping voicemails into 
people's cellphones, that U.S. State Department can process 
millions of people coming into the United States?
    Mr. Bier. Yes. I mean, certainly the State Department has 
its challenges. But if you look at where it started, at 83 
percent visas being cut by the last Administration, I mean, 
they gutted the State Department's visa processing, which is 
why they were not able to get Afghans out of Afghanistan.
    Mr. Donalds. Mr. Bier, I have a final question for you. We 
will leave Afghanistan for another day. I disagree with you, 
but I will leave that. I have a separate question for you. Do 
you believe that the United States' current policy with respect 
to work authorizations, Medicare--essentially public charge 
doctrine with Joe Biden's Administration changed from the Trump 
Administration--do you believe that that would only juice 
immigration into the United States if people coming to apply 
for asylum directly through the U.S. State Department, that it 
would only increase the influx of people because they will be 
able to take advantage of the vast amount of the welfare state 
in the United States of America? Do you think it would bring 
more immigrants or less immigrants?
    Mr. Bier. Look, I do not support immigrants being on 
welfare. I mean, I am not exactly sure what the question is. I 
think that the city of New York has unfortunately decided to 
put everyone up in a hotel room and make their taxpayers pay 
for it. That is a bad choice for them. You know, the Federal 
Government has a limited role in deciding what New York State's 
or New York City's policies are.
    Mr. Donalds. So, real quick question. Sorry, Chairman. Real 
quick question, quick followup to that, and I will ask all 
three of you actually. If you are going to have open borders, 
can you have a welfare state at the same time, Mr. Edlow?
    Mr. Edlow. No.
    Mr. Donalds. Mr. Homan?
    Mr. Homan. No. No.
    Mr. Donalds. Mr. Bier?
    Mr. Bier. It has got to be restricted, and it is. Our legal 
immigration system restricts benefits to new legal permanent 
residents for 5 years.
    Mr. Donalds. Mr. Bier, I would strongly disagree with you 
because people are getting a lot of benefits the second they 
come into the United States of America, and it is wrong. I 
yield back, Mr. Chairman.
    Chairman Comer. The gentleman yields back. Votes have been 
called about 10 minutes ago. So, I want to thank our panel for 
being here today. This is one of the biggest issues in America. 
I think everyone that watched this hearing sees there are two 
schools of thought on this. This was very insightful testimony 
today. I appreciate everyone's leadership on this issue. With 
that, and without--do you have anything to----
    Mr. Raskin. Just one thing for the record, Mr. Chairman. 
Unanimous consent request for a document that comes from our 
friends at Judiciary Committee, which is a broad overview of 
all the immigration reform bills that are in this and in the 
prior two congresses.
    Chairman Comer. Without objection, so ordered.
    With that, and without objection, all Members will have 5 
legislative days within which to submit materials and to submit 
additional written questions for the witnesses, which will be 
forwarded to the witnesses for their response.
    Chairman Comer. If there is no further business, without 
objection, the Committee stands adjourned.
    [Whereupon, at 1:44 p.m., the Committee was adjourned.]

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