[House Hearing, 118 Congress]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]
TAKING THE BUZZER BEATER TO THE BANK: PROTECTING COLLEGE ATHLETES' NIL
DEALMAKING RIGHTS
=======================================================================
HEARING
BEFORE THE
SUBCOMMITTEE ON INNOVATION, DATA, AND COMMERCE
OF THE
COMMITTEE ON ENERGY AND COMMERCE
HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
ONE HUNDRED EIGHTEENTH CONGRESS
FIRST SESSION
__________
MARCH 29, 2023
__________
Serial No. 118-18
[GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Published for the use of the Committee on Energy and Commerce
govinfo.gov/committee/house-energy
energycommerce.house.gov
__________
U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE
54-500 PDF WASHINGTON : 2024
COMMITTEE ON ENERGY AND COMMERCE
CATHY McMORRIS RODGERS, Washington
Chair
MICHAEL C. BURGESS, Texas FRANK PALLONE, Jr., New Jersey
ROBERT E. LATTA, Ohio Ranking Member
BRETT GUTHRIE, Kentucky ANNA G. ESHOO, California
H. MORGAN GRIFFITH, Virginia DIANA DeGETTE, Colorado
GUS M. BILIRAKIS, Florida JAN SCHAKOWSKY, Illinois
BILL JOHNSON, Ohio DORIS O. MATSUI, California
LARRY BUCSHON, Indiana KATHY CASTOR, Florida
RICHARD HUDSON, North Carolina JOHN P. SARBANES, Maryland
TIM WALBERG, Michigan PAUL TONKO, New York
EARL L. ``BUDDY'' CARTER, Georgia YVETTE D. CLARKE, New York
JEFF DUNCAN, South Carolina TONY CARDENAS, California
GARY J. PALMER, Alabama RAUL RUIZ, California
NEAL P. DUNN, Florida SCOTT H. PETERS, California
JOHN R. CURTIS, Utah DEBBIE DINGELL, Michigan
DEBBBIE LESKO, Arizona MARC A. VEASEY, Texas
GREG PENCE, Indiana ANN M. KUSTER, New Hampshire
DAN CRENSHAW, Texas ROBIN L. KELLY, Illinois
JOHN JOYCE, Pennsylvania NANETTE DIAZ BARRAGAN, California
KELLY ARMSTRONG, North Dakota, Vice LISA BLUNT ROCHESTER, Delaware
Chair DARREN SOTO, Florida
RANDY K. WEBER, Sr., Texas ANGIE CRAIG, Minnesota
RICK W. ALLEN, Georgia KIM SCHRIER, Washington
TROY BALDERSON, Ohio LORI TRAHAN, Massachusetts
RUSS FULCHER, Idaho LIZZIE FLETCHER, Texas
AUGUST PFLUGER, Texas
DIANA HARSHBARGER, Tennessee
MARIANNETTE MILLER-MEEKS, Iowa
KAT CAMMACK, Florida
JAY OBERNOLTE, California
------
Professional Staff
NATE HODSON, Staff Director
SARAH BURKE, Deputy Staff Director
TIFFANY GUARASCIO, Minority Staff Director
Subcommittee on Innovation, Data, and Commerce
GUS M. BILIRAKIS, Florida
Chairman
LARRY BUCSHON, Indiana JAN SCHAKOWSKY, Illinois
TIM WALBERG, Michigan, Vice Chair Ranking Member
JEFF DUNCAN, South Carolina KATHY CASTOR, Florida
NEAL P. DUNN, Florida DEBBIE DINGELL, Michigan
DEBBIE LESKO, Arizona ROBIN L. KELLY, Illinois
GREG PENCE, Indiana LISA BLUNT ROCHESTER, Delaware
KELLY ARMSTRONG, North Dakota DARREN SOTO, Florida
RICK W. ALLEN, Georgia LORI TRAHAN, Massachusetts
RUSS FULCHER, Idaho YVETTE D. CLARKE, New York
DIANA HARSHBARGER, Tennessee FRANK PALLONE, Jr., New Jersey (ex
KAT CAMMACK, Florida officio)
CATHY McMORRIS RODGERS, Washington
(ex officio)
C O N T E N T S
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Page
Hon. Gus M. Bilirakis, a Representative in Congress from the
State of Florida, opening statement............................ 1
Prepared statement........................................... 4
Hon. Jan Schakowsky, a Representative in Congress from the State
of Illinois, opening statement................................. 6
Prepared statement........................................... 8
Hon. Cathy McMorris Rodgers, a Representative in Congress from
the State of Washington, opening statement..................... 10
Prepared statement........................................... 12
Hon. Frank Pallone, Jr., a Representative in Congress from the
State of New Jersey, opening statement......................... 14
Prepared statement........................................... 16
Hon. Lori Trahan, a Representative in Congress from the
Commonwealth of Massachusetts, opening statement............... 17
Prepared statement........................................... 18
Witnesses
Jennifer Heppel, Commissioner, Patriot League.................... 19
Prepared statement........................................... 21
Answers to submitted questions............................... 141
Makola M. Abdullah, Ph.D., President, Virginia State University.. 26
Prepared statement........................................... 28
Answers to submitted questions............................... 146
Trey Burton, Former National Football League player.............. f34
Prepared statement........................................... 36
Answers to submitted questions............................... 148
Kaley Mudge, Student Athlete, Florida State University........... 39
Prepared statement........................................... 41
Answers to submitted questions............................... 150
Pat Chun, Director of Athletics, Washington State University..... 43
Prepared statement........................................... 45
Answers to submitted questions............................... 153
Jason Stahl, Ph.D., Executive Director and Founder, College
Football Players Association................................... 53
Prepared statement........................................... 55
Answers to submitted questions............................... 157
Submitted Material
Inclusion of the following was approved by unanimous consent.
Letter of March 27, 2023, from Kim Pate, Vice President for
Athletics, Lenoir-Rhyne University, to Subcommittee Members.... 103
Statement of Trinity Thomas, Gymnast and Health Education &
Behavior Student, University of Florida, March 29, 2023........ 106
Letter of March 28, 2023, from Steve Murray, Commissioner,
Pennsylvania State Athletic Conference, to Subcommittee Members 109
Statement of DeWayne Carter, Duke Football, et al., March 28,
2023........................................................... 111
Letter of March 28, 2023, from Matt Wilson, Commissioner, Gulf
South Conference, to Subcommittee Members...................... 113
Letter of March 28, 2023, from Michael A. Driscoll, President,
Indiana University of Pennsylvania, to Subcommittee Members.... 115
Letter of March 28, 2023, from Carrie Michaels, Senior Associate
Director of Athletics, Shippensburg University, to Subcommittee
Members........................................................ 117
Letter of March 28, 2023, from Jere W. Morehead, President,
University of Georgia, March 28, 2023, to Subcommittee Members. 119
Letter of March 28, 2023, from Dr. Dean L. Bresciani,
Distinguished Professor and Former President, North Dakota
State University, to Mr. Bilirakis, et al...................... 122
Letter of March 28, 2023, from Jeffrey Docking, Ph.D., President,
Adrian College, to Mr. Bilirakis, et al........................ 125
Letter of March 27, 2023, from Dr. Sandra Woodley, President,
University of Texas Permian Basin, to Mr. Bilirakis, et al..... 128
Letter of March 28, 2023, from Greg Christopher, Vice President
for Administration and Director of Athletics, Xavier
University, to Subcommittee Members............................ 131
Letter of March 28, 2023, from Jack Langan, Vice Chair, Division
III National SAAC, NCAA, to Subcommittee Members............... 133
Commentary of March 21, 2023, ``Even the Supreme Court Can't Save
the N.C.A.A. From Itself,'' by Bomani Jones, New York Times.... 135
Letter of March 29, 2023, from Representatives Colin Z. Allred,
August Pfluger, and Emanuel Cleaver II, to Mr. Bilirakis, et
al............................................................. 137
Commentary of July 1, 2021, ``At Notre Dame, We Believe `Student'
Should Come First in `Student-Athlete,''' by John I. Jenkins,
New York Times................................................. 139
TAKING THE BUZZER BEATER TO THE BANK: PROTECTING COLLEGE ATHLETES' NIL
DEALMAKING RIGHTS
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WEDNESDAY, MARCH 29, 2023
House of Representatives,
Subcommittee on Innovation, Data, and Commerce,
Committee on Energy and Commerce,
Washington, DC.
The subcommittee met, pursuant to call, at 10:30 a.m., in
room 2322, Rayburn House Office Building, Hon. Gus M. Bilirakis
(chairman of the subcommittee) presiding.
Members present: Representatives Bilirakis, Bucshon,
Walberg, Duncan, Dunn, Lesko, Pence, Allen, Fulcher,
Harshbarger, Cammack, Rodgers (ex officio), Schakowsky
(subcommittee ranking member), Castor, Blunt Rochester, Soto,
Trahan, Clarke, and Pallone (ex officio).
Also present: Carter, Pfluger, and Cardenas.
Staff present: Kate Arey, Content Manager and Digital
Assistant; Michael Cameron, Professional Staff Member,
Innovation, Data, and Commerce; Jessica Herron, Clerk,
Innovation, Data, and Commerce; Sean Kelly, Press Secretary;
Peter Kielty, General Counsel; Chris Krepich, Press Secretary;
Tim Kurth, Chief Counsel, Innovation, Data, and Commerce;
Brannon Rains, Professional Staff Member, Innovation, Data, and
Commerce; Lacey Strahm, Fellow, Innovation, Data, and Commerce;
Michael Taggart, Policy Director; Teddy Tanzer, Senior Counsel,
Innovation, Data, and Commerce; Hannah Anton, Minority Staff
Assistant; Ian Barlow, Minority FTC Detailee; Waverly Gordon,
Minority Deputy Staff Director and General Counsel; Daniel
Greene, Minority Professional Staff Member; Tiffany Guarascio,
Minority Staff Director; Lisa Hone, Minority Chief Counsel,
Innovation, Data, and Commerce; Mackenzie Kuhl, Minority
Digital Manager; Joe Orlando, Minority Senior Policy Analyst;
and C.J. Young, Minority Deputy Communications Director.
Mr. Bilirakis. Good morning, everyone. The subcommittee
will come to order.
The Chair recognizes himself for an opening statement.
OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. GUS M. BILIRAKIS, A REPRESENTATIVE IN
CONGRESS FROM THE STATE OF FLORIDA
Again, good morning, everyone. I am pleased to hold this
subcommittee hearing today to discuss an important topic that
has been the subject of much debate in recent years: name,
image, and likeness, or NIL, in college sports.
This debate about whether student-athletes should get NIL
compensation has already been settled by the courts, leaving
Congress to figure out how to navigate this new landscape. In
the meantime, many have already taken advantage of these new
opportunities.
During college basketball's busiest time of the year,
athletes have seized the moment on the court and rode their
success all the way to the bank. Since the start of March
Madness, more than 40 deals have been signed with men's and
women's basketball players. Ahead of the Final Four matchups
this weekend, one thing is clear: More college athletes will
ink additional NIL deals.
The main question before us today is how Congress should
regulate this new economic frontier to ensure that NIL deals
are transparent and fair and that they do not compromise the
integrity of college sports. We must avert the potential
pitfalls that could come with NIL compensation rights, such as
becoming recruiting inducements or pay-for-play schemes.
We also must consider how NIL regulation would affect
capital distribution in the college sports ecosystem,
particularly the effects this will have on smaller college
athletic programs. I want to emphasize that.
Just last week we heard the unfortunate news that St.
Francis College in New York made a decision to eliminate its
entire athletics program, citing residual financial
implications from COVID-19 pandemic and operating expenses. I
worry that the financial stress of more mandates will only
compound such constraints on resources.
If that is not enough, we are already seeing charitable
dollars being siphoned away from the athletic departments and
conferences into third-party NIL collectives. Combine that with
a requirement for schools to classify their athletes as
employees--I know that there is a pending proposal in the State
of New York--we will certainly see more heartbreaking decisions
made, particularly for sports that don't generate revenue. And
we have got to preserve those sports, ladies and gentlemen, and
I worry about the implications of what this would do to Olympic
sports as well.
It is vital that we center today's discussion on the
foundational principle that creating and maintaining an equal
playing field for all college athletes is paramount. If you are
advocating for student-athletes, which all of us are here
today, your priority should be that they remain student-
athletes.
I am glad to see a diverse set of perspectives on our
witness panel today, each sharing a unique view of the college
NIL landscape. Thank you all for making the time to travel
before us today, again, being here, and share your insights
into this topic with us.
I am particularly proud to see my home State will be
represented on today's panel. I wonder how that happened? Thank
you, Kaley. I want to thank Kaley for making the time to come
share your story with us amidst the demands of being in season.
I wish you luck at your games, of course, this weekend.
And it always warms my heart to see my alma mater
represented. Thank you, Trey, Mr. Trey Burton, for being here.
And I think everyone knows by now that I bleed orange and blue.
So, go Gators.
[Laughter.]
Mr. Bilirakis. As my colleagues can see by the geographic
makeup of this panel, NIL affects athletes and institutions in
all States. It is critical that we establish a Federal
preemptive standard for NIL to bring clarity and consistency to
this rapidly evolving space.
The lack of uniformity across different States and
institutions has created confusion and uncertainty, and a
Federal standard is needed so all athletes are playing by the
same rules. In short, we must strike a delicate balance between
the rights of college athletes to profit from their own NIL
while keeping the amateur status for all college athletes.
With that, with thoughtful and balanced legislation, we can
create a system that is fair, transparent, and sustainable for
all. Today's hearing is one step in that process. We can get
this done if we work together, folks.
Thank you all for your attention, and I look forward to a
productive discussion on this very important topic.
OK. And now I yield.
[The prepared statement of Mr. Bilirakis follows:]
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I will recognize the gentlelady from Illinois, Ms.
Schakowsky, for 5 minutes for her opening statement. She is our
ranking member, and we have worked so well together in the
past. So I yield to--I give you 5 minutes, Representative
Schakowsky, please.
OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. JAN SCHAKOWSKY, A REPRESENTATIVE IN
CONGRESS FROM THE STATE OF ILLINOIS
Ms. Schakowsky. Thank you so much, Mr. Chairman, for your
continued collaboration, and I want to thank the witnesses for
being here today.
Throughout March, fans gathered to cheer for their
basketball teams, and I have to tell you that I was thrilled
that this year for the first time ever both Illinois Big Ten
teams were in the NCAA men's basketball tournament. Yay. We
didn't get all the way, but----
So, and college sports brings joy to Americans in every
State, in every congressional district, and certainly also to
current and former athletes. I want to tip my hat to our
colleague, Representative Trahan, who is one of those, and I am
sure there are others among our--among our Members. And she--
that was volleyball, by the way. And so--but college sports
have also generated enormous wealth, but that wealth has not
been--has not been uniformly distributed among all who need to
be.
For example, let me say those most responsible for the
creation of that wealth--the players--have yet to receive their
fair share of the pie. We have seen athletes deprived of the
basic--the basic needs that they have, and we need to do
something about it.
For anyone who doubts--who doubts me, I look back to 2015,
when Northwestern football players--and I am proud to represent
them--tried to--began an effort to unionize. I supported that.
Northwestern employed the same anti-union tactics that we have
seen among giant corporations like Starbucks and Amazon.
And it is essential that college athletes not only have the
right to benefit from their name and image and likeness, but
that they can--that they can make sure that they get the
benefits in other ways as well.
For example, under NCAA rules, athletes are required to
have basic health insurance. However, schools are not required
to provide the health insurance. Unfortunately, these--the two
health insurance options offered by the NCAA provide
insufficient coverage and is also time-limited, yet for some
athletes, injuries last sometimes even a lifetime, but
certainly longer than the insurance covers.
For years Congress has been told, well, just let them
regulate themselves--talking about the NCAA and others--do it
themselves. But only after a Supreme Court ruling would we
finally see the passage of some legislation, State laws in
various States, have we--did the NCAA begin to allow some
college athletes to make money from their name, image, and
likeness.
However, huge--let me just see--am I still there? No, I
guess--oh, wait, I am still there. OK.
However, huge disparities in--still exist between athletes
in various colleges. So more--absolutely more needs to be done,
and I really look forward to the debate that we are going to
have in this committee to make sure how we are going to address
these issues.
I think the time has come for real change. I want to say
that I have read all of your testimony, and I just wanted to
tell you that I have to leave for a brief moment to go to the
Budget Committee, where I am going to be asking questions, and
then I am going to come back and hear the rest of it. But thank
you so much to our witnesses.
And with that, I yield back, Mr. Chairman.
[The prepared statement of Ms. Schakowsky follows:]
[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Mr. Bilirakis. Thank you. Appreciate it. Thank you, Ranking
Member.
I do want to say that the testimony is excellent, and I had
an opportunity to read it as well. So we appreciate that very
much.
I now recognize our chairperson of the full committee, Mrs.
Rodgers, for her 5 minutes for her opening statement. You are
recognized.
OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. CATHY McMORRIS RODGERS, A
REPRESENTATIVE IN CONGRESS FROM THE STATE OF WASHINGTON
Mrs. Rodgers. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And thank you for
your dedication to the issue of name, likeness--name, image,
likeness. I know this. Name, image, likeness. I know it is
close to your heart to ensure college athletes have every
chance to succeed professionally and academically.
We are fortunate to have a few former college athletes on
this committee, and I know it is an issue that is close to
their hearts as well.
I would also like to thank Mr. Pat Chun from Washington
State University, the athletic director for Washington State
University, who is testifying today. Go Cougs. He has been a
leader on this issue, his work at WSU and various roles with
the NCAA. Just appreciate your insights.
The Supreme Court blew the whistle on the NCAA in 2021 as
it unanimously ruled it can no longer prohibit college athletes
from receiving compensation for their NIL. The ruling could not
have been clearer. The NCAA was overly restrictive in its
prohibition of athletes profiting from their NIL.
Unfortunately, the Supreme Court's ruling did not offer clear
rules of the road.
Instead, we have seen a rollercoaster of State activity as
States compete to have the most advantageous laws for their
respective schools. For example, Alabama enacted an NIL law to
provide guardrails and quickly had to repeal it within a year
over concerns more restrictive laws could put them in a
competitive disadvantage in recruiting versus other States.
Not unlike other challenging issues before this committee,
the patchwork of State laws is confusing for athletes, schools,
and conferences alike. It is unreasonable to expect student-
athletes to balance their studies with navigating a maze of
complex and conflicting laws. They are put in a potentially
devastating position of running afoul of rules they would need
a law firm to provide counsel on.
Without a clear and consistent set of rules in place, the
entire ecosystem is disrupted and important elements of the
educational experience are decimated. Nonrevenue-generating
sports that help athletes get into and through a college degree
program are being hurt. Advances thanks to Title IX will be
reversed if there aren't consistent rules to benefit women's
sports.
As Chairman Bilirakis shared, small schools' athletic
programs will be eliminated, as they are unable to compete in
such a complex system of rules and incentives.
While some sports in the highest level are profitable, most
student-athletes compete in sports that would not have a good
return on investment. We cannot allow an outcome where there
are thousands of college athletes--where they lose their
opportunity to compete in the sports they love.
The current NIL chaos means student-athletes are left to
fend for themselves, and those at the top of their game must
figure out how to maneuver through a multiple of agents,
collectives, and high-dollar contract offers, all while
maintaining their academic and athletic commitments. The
pressure placed on these student-athletes is immense and raises
important questions on them being able to receive counseling
for financial planning and mental well-being.
Clear protections in education can prevent many unfortunate
examples of college athletes being exploited. In resolving
these challenges, we must not ruin what makes college athletics
so special.
NIL is long overdue. It means a supplemental income for
student-athletes across the country. The recent changes in NCAA
NIL policy recognize what has always been true. These college--
these athletes are more--these collegiate athletes are more
than just athletes. They are small business owners, podcasters,
and entrepreneurs.
We must give them clear guidelines for how they explore and
nurture these talents. We must also establish clear national
rules so amateur athletes have every chance to succeed in life
and sports. Every one of us takes great pride in the
universities and colleges in our home States. We all want our
student-athletes to be successful, both on and off the field.
Again, thank you to the witnesses for appearing before us
today, as your input will help guide us in legislating a set of
rules that works for everyone.
I yield back.
[The prepared statement of Mrs. Rodgers follows:]
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Mr. Bilirakis. Thank you, Madam Chair. appreciate it very
much.
And before I recognize the ranking member of the full
committee, Mr. Pallone, I would like to ask him a question.
Sir, Eagles or Giants?
[Laughter.]
Mr. Pallone. Giants, but I actually like both.
Mr. Bilirakis. OK. That is a politician there.
Mr. Pallone. Well, I am in central Jersey, so, you know, we
have people from----
Mr. Bilirakis. Oh, OK. Well----
Mr. Pallone [continuing]. For both teams.
Mr. Bilirakis. I am going to tell you that, as you know,
Mr. Burton is responsible for the Philly Special. And he is an
Eagles fan, so be nice to him.
Mr. Pallone. I will.
Mr. Bilirakis. All right. I think you are always nice.
Thank you. You are a great friend. All right. I want to
recognize you for 5 minutes, sir, for your opening statement.
OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. FRANK PALLONE, Jr., A REPRESENTATIVE
IN CONGRESS FROM THE STATE OF NEW JERSEY
Mr. Pallone. Thank you. And, Mr. Chairman, I did want to
recognize, because I see him in the audience, former
Congressman Tom McMillen, who served on this committee when I
started, and he of course was a great basketball player and
when he was here championed the concerns of college athletes.
So I am sure that is why he is here today. Thank you, Tom.
But I also wanted to say that I do think this is an
important hearing. The devotion, sacrifice, and hard work of
collegiate athletes helps make college sports one of the most
popular and lucrative brands of sports entertainment in the
country. And they play packed stadiums, their performances
fuels viewership, their talents and charisma drive merchandise
sales, and their successes increase revenue and enrollment.
And college athletes deserve a system that protects their
interests and well-being while preserving the educational
mission of college sports. So that is why I am pleased that the
National Collegiate Athletic Association has finally been
forced to allow college athletes to monetize their name, image,
and likeness, just like any other students on campus or coach
in the lockout room--locker room. And while name, image, and
likeness reform is a start, any future actions by Congress to
legislate in this space must also address some of the broader,
equally pressing issues affecting college athletes today,
issues like health and safety, players' rights to organize,
compensation, and gender equity.
We have to ensure that players' welfare is the top priority
for the athletic programs at colleges and universities across
the country, regardless of division, conference, or sport, and
that means every player must receive proper care for sports-
related medical issues, even when that care comes after leaving
college.
It means college athletes' First Amendment rights to
organize must be respected and protected, and that players must
be able to meaningfully negotiate to ensure their voices are
heard. And it also means that we must be mindful of protecting
and building on the benefits Title IX has brought to women's
college sports.
So I thank Chairs Rodgers and Bilirakis for their
willingness to work in a bipartisan manner and assure all
perspectives are represented here today. These athletes deserve
a system that puts players' welfare first, not the NCAA's
bottom line. I look forward to hearing from the panel on how we
in Congress can achieve that goal for collegiate athletes.
But I am going to yield the remainder of my time to
Congresswoman Trahan, because she knows a lot more about these
issues than I do as a former Division I female athlete, the
only former Division I female athlete serving in Congress.
[The prepared statement of Mr. Pallone follows:]
[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. LORI TRAHAN, A REPRESENTATIVE IN
CONGRESS FROM THE COMMONWEALTH OF MASSACHUSETTS
Mrs. Trahan. Well, I thank the ranking member for yielding.
Like many of our colleagues on the committee, I believe that
Congress can and must act to create a level playing field for
college athletics. We will no doubt hear from our witnesses
today that the current patchwork of State laws is difficult for
colleges and conferences to navigate. But as a former college
athlete myself, I am more concerned with how that same
patchwork affects athletes.
When I was being recruited to play volleyball, I had to
navigate that process alone. You know, my parents didn't get a
scholarship to college. In fact, many first-generation
Americans like my dad didn't have a choice but to start working
right after high school. They didn't--they did their best to
help me, but the burden of navigating different scholarship
offers and weighing the pros and cons of one school against
another was stressful and at times daunting.
That was difficult enough 30 years ago without having to
parse through the different State laws to determine if going to
a school in New Mexico might be better from an NIL perspective
than staying in my home State of Massachusetts. But that is the
challenge that athletes are facing today. Make no mistake, the
system of college athletics is better than it was 2 years ago,
but there are emerging challenges, including inequity and
collusion among collectives, predatory contracts, and Title IX
loopholes that we should address.
I would urge my colleagues that when we move the ball
forward on this issue we do so in a way that prioritize the
rights of athletes who have long been left out of discussions
about the future of college athletics. There should not be a
desire to return to the status quo that didn't work for so many
college athletes.
We can't put that genie back in the bottle, as they say,
but we can work together to advance legislation that creates a
level playing field, strengthens the rights of athletes, and
preserves college athletics for generations to come.
I want to thank the Chair and ranking member for hosting
today's hearing and the panel of witnesses for their testimony,
and I yield back.
[The prepared statement of Ms. Trahan follows:]
[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Mr. Bilirakis. Thank you so very much. So we have now
concluded with Member opening statements. The Chair reminds
Members that, pursuant to the committee rules, all Members'
opening statements will be part of the record.
So our first witness is Jennifer Heppel, the commissioner
of the Patriot League.
So you are recognized. Thank you so very much for being
here. You are recognized for 5 minutes.
STATEMENTS OF JENNIFER HEPPEL, COMMISSIONER, PATRIOT LEAGUE;
MAKOLA M. ABDULLAH, Ph.D., PRESIDENT, VIRGINIA STATE
UNIVERSITY; TREY BURTON, FORMER NATIONAL FOOTBALL LEAGUE
PLAYER; KALEY MUDGE, STUDENT-ATHLETE, FLORIDA STATE UNIVERSITY;
PAT CHUN, DIRECTOR OF ATHLETICS, WASHINGTON STATE UNIVERSITY;
AND JASON STAHL, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR AND FOUNDER, COLLEGE
FOOTBALL PLAYERS ASSOCIATION
STATEMENT OF JENNIFER HEPPEL
Ms. Heppel. Thank you. Thank you, Chairman Bilirakis and
Ranking Member Schakowsky and all the members of the
subcommittee. It is a great opportunity to be here today.
My name is Jennifer Heppel, commissioner of the Patriot
League, which is one of 32 Division I conferences within the
NCAA structure. I have been fortunate to spend my entire
career--30 years so far, we will see how today goes--no, 30
years so far in college athletics at the national,
institutional, and conference levels.
I was a women's ice hockey student-athlete in college, and
that experience laid the foundation for my professional growth.
While the title of this hearing is specific to NIL, I have
a sense we might touch on some other issues. So let me share
some perspective from the Patriot League.
There are over 8,000 student-athletes competing on over 240
teams across the league. Collectively, that is 20 percent of
our undergraduate student population. The Patriot League
believes that participation in athletics is an important
component of a well-rounded education.
The integrated student-athlete experience, the academic and
personal growth of student-athletes, is primary. Being a
student in the Patriot League and being an athlete in the
Patriot League are not mutually exclusive. Our students are
fully engaged in campus life. They live in dorms, eat in the
dining halls, participate in study abroad, lead campus
organizations, participate in internships, and they compete as
Division I athletes.
This year's Patriot League Women's Basketball Player of the
Year spent last summer as a business administration intern in
Barcelona. This was through a scholarship sponsored by the
business school at Lehigh University. A key contributor on our
men's basketball championship team from Colgate, and a former
Patriot League Rookie of the Year, spent last summer as a bunk
counselor at a camp for children with special needs. He plans
to pursue a master's in counseling and move into private
therapy when he finishes playing.
Just a few years ago, on the day prior to being in the
starting lineup for our men's basketball championship, I was
honored to watch our then-Men's Basketball Player of the Year
from Bucknell present a project with his senior design team to
leadership at a medical center in northeast Pennsylvania. He
earned his degree in biomedical engineering in 4 years and is
now playing professional basketball overseas.
We have 8,000 young people on our campuses that share
similar experiences. Those are just three. These are not
employees of our institutions. They are students being provided
comprehensive support so that they can experience and achieve
academic and athletic excellence.
Just like all students on our campuses, Patriot League
student-athletes are able to profit off their own name, image,
and likeness. The League fully supports NIL opportunities. Many
provide important professional networking, educational, career
development, and service dimensions. NIL managed and regulated
in a legitimate manner represents an area of constructive
change and opportunity for student-athletes.
Unfortunately, the instability created by the multitude of
State laws and the lack of transparency in the current
structure is undermining the positive change. Finding a means
toward appropriate national regulation around NIL is necessary
to address these negative impacts.
Today's challenges are unique, but the fact that such
challenges exist is not surprising. This is a national model.
There are differing institutional characteristics and
priorities to consider, and resulting perspectives will vary,
but our solutions for the challenges must preserve and protect
the universally considered positives of intercollegiate
athletics, its connectivity to the educational mission, and the
provision of opportunity for hundreds of thousands of young
people.
Thank you.
[The prepared statement of Ms. Heppel follows:]
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Mr. Bilirakis. Thank you. Appreciate it very much.
Next we will have Dr. Makola Abdullah, the president of the
Virginia State University, and you are recognized, sir.
Thanks for being here. You are recognized for 5 minutes.
STATEMENT OF MAKOLA M. ABDULLAH, Ph.D.
Dr. Abdullah. Thank you, sir. Chairman Bilirakis, Ranking
Member Schakowsky, members of the committee, and members of the
subcommittee, I am Makola Abdullah. I serve as the president of
Virginia State University, a historically black college located
in Chesterfield County just outside of Petersburg, Virginia.
I serve as a member of the Presidential Board of Advisors
on HBCUs, chaired by Tony Allen of Delaware State University,
and I am also the past chair of the Central Intercollegiate
Athletic Association, the CIAA, the oldest and the--well, the
first and the oldest, I guess that would be the same thing--
historically black university athletic conference in the
country. Our current chair is Dr. Aminta Breaux of Bowie State,
and our commissioner is Ms. Jacqie McWilliams.
Our Division II athletic programs at Virginia State
University are led by Mrs. Peggy Davis, the best athletic
director in the country, and we currently offer 21
intercollegiate athletic sports, including recently added men's
and women's soccer and men's and women's lacrosse.
Again, I would like to thank you for the opportunity to
participate, to discuss college athletes' rights to the name,
image, and likeness. While I was afforded an abundance of
opportunities during my collegiate career, my athletic talents,
unfortunately, did not afford me the opportunity to participate
on an NCAA sports team at Howard University.
I am, however, an avid fan and supporter of college
athletics and college athletes, and particularly the young men
and women who suit up in the orange and blue, the Trojan orange
and blue.
As president, my goal is to be a part of an institution
that changes lives through education and prepares our students
to enter the world as savvy global citizens, lifelong learners,
and generational change agents. At Virginia State University,
our athletics program is supported by student fees. While
college sports has become a multibillion-dollar business, there
are many institutions like ours where athletics is still very
much an amateur extracurricular program.
It is important to remember that there are three divisions
of athletics, and they are not all created equally. For some
universities like Virginia State University, again, athletics
is not revenue generating. We are not one of the major Division
I institutions. And while we are not, I fully believe, though,
that it is all of our responsibility to make sure that everyone
who participates in college athletics has the right to reap the
benefits of their labor.
Virginia State University, other HBCUs, and Division II and
III institutions have been competing against major universities
for students, student-athletes, faculty, staff, administrators,
Federal grants, private philanthropic dollars, for many years.
We are not afraid of competition, and we believe that we
can successfully recruit student-athletes who understand the
transformative nature of our--of HBCUs who believe in our
mission and understand the longstanding tradition of excellence
at our university.
I am sure that all of you are aware that, according to the
NCAA, student-athletes are not required to disclose the amount
of their NIL deals. However, at Virginia State University, we
are aware of five student-athletes who have currently disclosed
an NIL deal. That is a total of--from over 300 athletes--
student-athletes at VSU. If I was to estimate the total value
of these NIL deals, I am sure that it would be less than
$10,000.
The NIL experience is unique to individual institutions
because the revenue generated differs among all of our
institutions. It is paramount that we provide our athletes with
the proper tools to manage the responsibilities that come with
these NIL deals. Therefore, at VSU we provide financial
literacy and marketing education for our student-athletes. We
continue to teach and educate young men and women to maximize
their ability to make money from their talents and brands.
I better move quickly.
As leader of a proud HBCU, we have--we have been concerned
about our institution's systematic underfunding since our
founding. At the State level, our previous Governor, Ralph
Northam, and our current Governor, Glenn Youngkin, and our
State legislature have tried to address the issue.
I do know that on the Federal level Congresswoman Alma
Adams, Congressman French Hill, and Senators Chris Coons and
Tim Scott of the bipartisan HBCU Caucus, and our Virginia
delegation led by Congressman Bobby Scott, Congresswoman
Abigail Spanberger, and Congresswoman Jennifer McClellan, with
Senators Tim Kaine and Mark Warner, are stalworth advocates for
addressing these issues.
While that is not the issue on the table today, it must be
considered in the context of this conversation, because
students and student-athletes look at all of a university--all
that a university has to offer when considering where to attend
college: your sports facilities, your stadiums and classrooms,
your libraries and infrastructure. But I will not belabor that
point as of course that is literally a hearing for another day.
Thank you very much, sir.
[The prepared statement of Dr. Abdullah follows:]
[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Mr. Bilirakis. Appreciate it very much. Thank you.
Our next witness is Mr. Trey Burton, a former National
Football League player. And did I mention he played his college
ball at the University of Florida?
OK. Well, anyway, sir, thank you for being here. We
appreciate it, and I recognize you for 5 minutes.
STATEMENT OF TREY BURTON
Mr. Burton. Thank you. Good morning, Chair Rodgers, Ranking
Member Pallone, Chairman Bilirakis, Ranking Member Schakowsky,
and distinguished members of the committee. I want to thank you
for the opportunity to testify before you today on the issue of
name, image, and likeness.
My name is Trey Burton. I am a former collegiate athlete
from the University of Florida. Go Gators.
I was then fortunate enough to play 7 years in the NFL: 4
years with the Eagles, 2 years with the Bears, and 1 year with
the Colts. I currently reside in Tampa, Florida, with my wife
and three children.
The University of Florida has a very special place in my
heart. From the age of 6, I dreamed about wearing the orange
and blue. I will never forget the day that Urban Meyer called
and offered me a scholarship, which I committed right on the
spot. The list of things that make UF special to me are too
long to talk about today, but two things that will forever have
a lasting impression on my life are the Gator brand and the
relationships I have made there during my time.
One of the reasons I believe I am a credible--I am credible
to talk about the issues in question today is the fact that I
have seen my sport from the lowest level at the age of 5 and to
the highest level when I retired at the age of 30. I had my
breakout game in my freshman season and had a great amount of
success early on in my time at the university.
I would have been a perfect candidate and benefited greatly
from NIL. I got married and had my first child my junior year
at Florida, and the resources I could have potentially received
would have benefited my family and gone a long way at that
time.
As a 7-year NFL veteran, I can also testify to how the
sport changes if you are fortunate enough to make the jump from
amateur sport to professional sport. The peace of mind a
scholarship gives you compared to a nonguaranteed NFL contract
is like comparing apples to oranges. They are completely
different worlds.
The business side of the NFL is complex. But having
successfully walked through those contracts, it is important
for me to speak on those differences and properly equip
student-athletes for that transition.
We have an opportunity with NIL to ensure that the business
deals benefit student-athletes rather than harm them or set
them up poorly in the long run. As many of you are aware,
college football has changed or college athletics have changed
dramatically over the last 18 to 22 months.
There has been a lot of debate over whether these changes
have been good or bad for collegiate sports. The evolution of
NIL has happened so fast that many would argue that it is like
the wild wild west for colleges and student-athletes alike.
The line between amateur sports and professional sports
seems to be getting blurrier and blurrier every day. States
like California have proposed legislation to equal revenue
sharing between athletic programs and student-athletes. There
are even efforts to make all student-athletes employees of the
universities that they attend.
I would like to first start by stating that I believe NIL
is here to stay, and I believe that college athletes should be
able to get paid as much as legally possible from the
marketplace for their name, image, and likeness.
In my opinion, the good that has come with NIL has heavily
outweighed the bad. We are now seeing athletes able to profit
not only off their name, image, and likeness, but also off
business ventures, endorsement deals, and marketing
opportunities, which I, 10 years ago, never had the chance to
do.
There are also amazing stories of athletes giving back to
their communities and spreading awareness to organizations that
are near and dear to their hearts. Some of these young adults
are even able to use their funds to take back home and to take
care of their family, which would have never been possible
prior.
When I was playing, athletes had to choose whether to make
money or pursue the sport of their dreams and gain an
education. I am so glad that is no longer the case now.
On the other hand, some of the negatives I have heard and
seen with NIL are first and foremost how every State has their
own laws and rules and regulations regarding how NIL is used.
This is especially dangerous with the use of NIL in recruiting.
There is evidence that NIL is currently being used as a
recruitment tool for both high school athletes as well as
potential transfer athletes.
NIL was never intended to be used as pay-for-play. One of
the worst examples of pay-for-play would be to make these
athletes employees of the universities. Not only do
universities not want this, but I believe that this is where
amateur sport crosses the line into professional sport.
The other issue I have has been a lack of transparency
regarding the language of some of the deals that the athletes
have been given or have already accepted, and there have been
reports of agents taking up to 30 percent in fees, which is
unbelievable, and also athletes signing away their intellectual
property in some cases and access to their social media, which
is crazy as well.
If we don't establish a uniform set of rules with clear
guidelines, these issues will only magnify, allowing student-
athletes to be taken advantage of or caught in the middle.
As a former Division I athlete, I can tell you that my fear
in this is that these athletes have been thrown in the fire
with limited resources, no infrastructure to help them succeed
and to protect them from bad actors. There needs to be a
uniform set of NIL rules that everybody has to play by no
matter where the student plays or how large or small the school
or the sport is.
We need to make it a priority now more than ever to educate
our student-athletes how to take proper advantage of their
financial opportunities.
Thank you.
[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Mr. Bilirakis. Appreciate it very much. Hey, Trey, I
dreamed about it too, but it never happened for me.
[Laughter.]
Mr. Bilirakis. I ended up in Congress.
[Laughter.]
Mr. Bilirakis. Our next witness is Kaley Mudge, a student-
athlete from Florida State University. And thank you so very
much for being here, particularly since the season is still
going on for you. So I recognize you for 5 minutes. Thank you.
STATEMENT OF KALEY MUDGE
Ms. Mudge. Thank you. Chairwoman McMorris Rodgers, Ranking
Member Pallone, Mr. Bilirakis, Ms. Schakowsky, and
distinguished members of the Energy and Commerce Committee,
thank you for providing me with the opportunity to testify
before you on the important topic of protecting NIL rights for
college athletes.
Good morning. My name is Kaley Mudge. I am a red-shirt
junior outfielder on the Florida State softball team, and I am
from Winter Springs, Florida.
I am currently majoring in exercise science and will be
graduating this spring. My goal is to go to nursing school when
my eligibility is finished.
I would first like to thank you for the opportunity to be
here today and speak to you about my experiences as a college
student-athlete. Florida State has truthfully changed my life
in the past 4 years. I have seen myself grow into the best
version of myself as a student, as an athlete, and as a person.
I chose Florida State because from the moment I stepped on
campus it felt like home. I wanted to find a program and an
institution that felt like a community, and I found that at
FSU. The professors, coaches, administrators, and students have
made my 4 years such a great experience.
The culture of the softball program specifically is such a
family, and I am blessed to find that in a national
championship program. My coaches, athletic trainer,
nutritionist, strength coach, and teammates have all helped me
become my best self, and I wouldn't be where I am today without
them.
I came into FSU as a partial academic and athletic
scholarship recipient. When NIL came into play in 2021, I was
very excited for the chance to start earning money to help
further pay for my education.
My experience with NIL has been a very positive experience.
I have gotten the opportunity to learn so much about the
professional world as a college student, including how to read
contracts, how to negotiate deals, and how to earn and save
money. As an Olympic-sport athlete on a partial scholarship,
NIL has been extremely beneficial to me because I am able to
help pay for my tuition to hopefully come out of college with
little debt. One specific deal that I am involved in now has
given me the opportunity to start saving money for nursing
school when I am done playing softball.
NIL has served as an effective means for comprehensive life
skills education, given the multifaceted nature of this issue.
This includes financial literacy training, contract review,
personal branding, business formation, and responsible social
media strategies.
Like many universities across the NCAA, Florida State
University has developed a comprehensive education program to
provide student-athletes with knowledge, resources, and support
to navigate the NIL environment. This includes the creation of
three separate NIL-related courses in partnership with the
College of Business and School of Entrepreneurship, sport for
contractor--support for contract review through the College of
Law, cobranding opportunities through the use of institutional
marks and logos, and expansion of current university
partnerships to develop opportunities relative to NIL.
In addition to the support provided by the institution, the
collective has provided additional resources in the NIL space,
specifically in identifying and securing new NIL opportunities,
understanding market value, and facilitating group licensing
opportunities for myself and other student-athletes.
Specifically, I am an ambassador for our FSU collective, and
this is the deal that is helping me pay for nursing school.
Given that we compete for national championships, it is
imperative that we have uniform NIL guidelines and expectations
as opposed to the current framework of disparate or nonexistent
State laws and regulations. These national standards should
guarantee student-athletes the ability to pursue NIL
opportunities. These standards should also ensure a healthy
recruiting environment to promote fairness and equity, along
with a measure of transparency to support the NIL marketplace.
As we celebrate 50 years of Title IX, it is important that
the opportunities for participation and access to higher
education, specifically for underrepresented populations, are
supported and ensured. There are many threats throughout
legislation and litigation that would undermine this model.
Throughout college athletics, and specifically at Florida
State, student-athletes receive the highest forms of healthcare
support, including medical coverage for athletic injuries
beyond graduation and eligibility. We continue to expand access
to enhanced nutrition and mental health resources, and we also
receive first-class academic support and resources, such as
advisors and tutors.
These benefits enjoyed by student-athletes across the
country would not be possible without the legal protections
under Title IX and the redistribution of revenue across all
sponsored sports. The creation of an employee-employer model
would significantly threaten this current dynamic and alter
everything we know about how sports outside football and men's
basketball are supported.
NIL has provided me with so many opportunities in the past
2 years, and it has made my experience even better as a college
student-athlete.
Thank you again for your time and for the opportunity to be
here today.
[The prepared statement of Ms. Mudge follows:]
[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Mr. Bilirakis. Thank you very much. Thank you for your
testimony. It was excellent.
Our next witness is Pat Chun, who is the director of
athletics from Washington State University. You are recognized,
sir, for 5 minutes.
STATEMENT OF PAT CHUN
Mr. Chun. Thank you, and good morning. And subcommittee
Chair Bilirakis, and distinguished members of the subcommittee,
thank you for the opportunity to appear before you today to
discuss protecting name, image, and likeness rights for college
student-athletes.
My name is Pat Chun. I have worked in college athletics for
over 25 years and currently serve as the director of athletics
at Washington State University.
WSU is a public land-grant research institution. Our
athletics program sponsors 17 varsity sports comprised of
nearly 500 student-athletes, including the reigning Pac-12
Conference women's basketball champions.
The mission of WSU athletics is to unleash excellence and
provide a transformational student-athlete experience. WSU
athletics prides itself on being one of the most fiscally
efficient athletic departments in the country, with our budget
consistently ranked amongst the lowest in the Power Five
conferences.
Our student-athletes currently hold a school record 3.22
cumulative grade point average, graduate at an 8 percent higher
rate than the general student population, while also earning a
91 percent NCAA graduation success rate, the highest in school
history. Also, more than 20 percent of our student-athletes are
first-generation college students.
College athletics is facing significant challenges with no
simple solutions. Last year I met weekly serving on the 21-
member NCAA Division I Transformation Committee. At our
conclusion, recommendations were submitted to the NCAA Division
I Board of Directors and approved in January.
These recommendations introduced the holistic model for
student-athletes, setting expectations for the support of their
health, safety, and well-being, called for elevating the
championship experience, and created a fairer, faster, and
equitable NCAA governance model. Nevertheless, significant
challenges remain in college athletics.
The primacy of academics is at the foundation of every
institution of higher education. While college athletics has
evolved into a multibillion-dollar industry, our mission
remains to educate young people and prepare them for their
respective futures.
Proposed State legislation and ongoing litigation may
impact student-athlete employment status, and the issue
threatens to cause irreparable damage to the student-athlete
experience. Certain aspects of a potential employer-employee
relationship should be considered with caution. The notion that
a student-athlete could be fired for underperformance
undermines the very core of the educational mission.
Additionally, transitioning to employment status could
erode many of the benefits and guarantees that student-athletes
currently receive through potential tax implications.
Lastly, if one group of student-athletes becomes employees,
such as those in high-revenue-producing sports, demands and
legal claims could be made that all student-athletes should
become employees. The financial impact could lead to the
reduction of opportunities for broad-based participation on
campuses around the country, resulting in significant Title IX
implications threatening generations of hard-fought progress in
women's sports.
NIL was intended to be the next significant benefit for
student-athletes. Like any other student on campus, the
student-athletes deserve the right to monetize their NIL based
on the reputation and platform. Although true NIL provides
tremendous opportunities for student-athletes, the existing
environment consists of recruiting inducements, tampering, and
ultimately pay-for-play, and is wrought with pitfalls and
misinformation. Recent reports in the media suggest that
current student-athletes across the country are being
approached with empty promises which lead to false
expectations.
There is a probability that inequity exists in the NIL
marketplace. One example is from research provided by Navigate,
a sports data and valuation company. The research focused on
compensation for influencers states that approximately 77
percent of the general--meaning noncollege athletics--NIL
compensation is earned by women.
Comparatively, the research suggests women student-athletes
are receiving just 16.2 percent of the college athletics NIL
compensation. These numbers support the widespread belief that
the collegiate athletics NIL market is not reflective of the
true value of a student's NIL.
Without disclosures, institutions and student-athletes are
not able to properly assess NIL opportunities for fairness and
equity. By shielding accurate and required transactional
information, third parties have profited from the uninformed
decisions of student-athletes. Only with transparency,
oversight, and uniform regulation will unscrupulous third
parties begin to act with the best interests of student-
athletes at heart.
On behalf of Washington State University and our president,
Kirk Schulz, we are committed to being a part of the solution.
We respectfully ask Congress to partner with the NCAA and our
member institutions to develop Federal standards that provide
transparency and enforceable safeguards to mitigate the
negative impact of the existing NIL environment. This will help
ensure student-athletes benefit from the full potential of
their NIL.
It is also vital that we affirm the current relationship
between student-athletes and institutions. WSU supports
meaningful oversight that provides protection and value to the
student-athlete and ensures that institutions and outside
entities are complying with standardized rules and governing
policies.
Thank you.
[The prepared statement of Mr. Chun follows:]
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Mr. Bilirakis. Thank you, sir. Appreciate it very much.
Our final witness is Jason Stahl, executive director and
founder of the College Football Players Association. You are
recognized, sir, for 5 minutes.
STATEMENT OF JASON STAHL, Ph.D.
Dr. Stahl. Thank you.
Mr. Bilirakis. Thanks for being here.
Dr. Stahl. Of course. Chairman Bilirakis, Ranking Member
Schakowsky, members of the Subcommittee on Innovation, Data,
and Commerce, I appreciate the opportunity to testify here
today on behalf of the College Football Players Association, or
CFBPA.
My name is Jason Stahl, and I am the institution's founder
and executive director.
Since our founding, we have been building an independent,
voluntary, nonpartisan, membership-driven players association
that brings together past, present, and future college football
players from all levels of play.
Our Leadership Committee, or LC, is comprised of committed
alumni members and current player members of the CFBPA. The LC
has guided the development of our 7-point Platform for Change.
I am proud to have two members of our LC here today.
Justin Falcinelli played college football at Clemson
University, where he was a two-time College Football Playoff
national champion. Here also from our LC is Jordan Meachum.
Jordan played first at Sacred Heart University and then
finished his playing career at South Dakota State University,
where he was an NCAA Division I FCS national championship
runner-up. Both of these men have many academic honors to their
name.
Today I am here to deliver a simple message that the
problems of college athletics are not so large that they cannot
be solved by those within the industry. At the CFBPA, we have
developed a platform which attempts to address all of these
problems and are ready to sit down at the bargaining table with
administrators to discuss them.
In my written testimony for the record, I focused on all
seven of our proposed reforms, and I hope today to have the
opportunity in the Q&A to address all of these. However, given
the brevity of my oral testimony, I will only be focusing on
two of the seven here today.
In July 2021, college athletes for the first time had
access to the free market to monetize their name, image, and
likeness, NIL. The NCAA had denied college athletes this basic
economic freedom enjoyed by every other American, spending
millions of dollars in legal and lobbying fees to falsely keep
athletes' NIL market value at zero.
College athletes fought to show--and the Supreme Court
agreed--that NCAA compensation rules violated antitrust law,
and with the writing on the wall, the NCAA finally dropped its
NIL monetization restrictions.
The vast majority of evidence suggests athletes monetizing
their NIL has had an overwhelmingly positive effect on athletes
and their families. To the extent that there are problems in
the NIL free market that call for new ``consumer protections,
they are extraordinarily manageable by industry stakeholders,
including players, through their independent players
associations.
It is the position of the CFBPA that the Federal Government
should stay out of the NIL free market, as they would stay out
of the NIL free market for every other American citizen. At the
CFBPA, we believe that there should be no Federal Government
legislative rollback of the gains college athletes have made in
the NIL free market.
If new rules and regulations are needed for athletes
monetizing their NIL, administrators at the NCAA and in the
conferences should sit down with players through their
independent players associations to discuss and come to
agreement around such changes.
Once agreements are made, the CFBPA could assist with
enforcement and with screening attorneys and agents to protect
the interests of the athletes. Another related area of focus
within our platform pertains to new media rights contracts.
Media rights contracts for Power Five football conferences and
the College Football Playoff championship have exploded in
recent years and will continue to do so into the future,
particularly with the CFP expanding from four teams to 12 in
2024.
In the coming years, FBS football, particularly at the
Power Five level, will be awash in many new billions of
dollars. The players that generate this wealth deserve to share
in it.
The CFBPA and independent players associations representing
other televised sports that are part of these media rights
deals should sit down at the bargaining table and hammer out
revenue-sharing agreements. There will be plenty of money in
the system to share for all those athletes whose name, image,
and likeness are used in media broadcasts without impairing
overall operations of athletics departments.
Unfortunately, as it pertains to athletic departments and
conferences, the NCAA has recently declared that they are not
allowed to make direct NIL payments to athletes for their
appearance in media broadcasts. Lifting this barrier would be a
good first step to open up competition between conferences and
individual football programs for player talent and also to
address other flagrant systemic issues.
Change is here in college athletics, and it is time for
administrators at the NCAA conferences and member institutions
to embrace this change. Player empowerment is only going to
grow, and there can be no return to the paternalism of the past
through Federal legislation or other matters.
At the CFBPA, we are ready to sit down at the table with
administrators who are interested in moving ahead into the
future.
Thank you.
[The prepared statement of Mr. Stahl follows:]
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Mr. Bilirakis. I want to thank all of the witnesses for
their testimony.
We will move into questions--the question-and-answer
portion of the hearing. I will begin the questioning and
recognize myself for 5 minutes.
Mr. Burton, thank you again for making time to be with us
today and sharing your experience as an athlete playing at the
highest levels, both in college and professional football. I
appreciate it very much.
After all, not many can say they have a Super Bowl ring or
were nominated for player--Play of the Year at the ESPYs with
the Philly Special. And I am not talking about cheesesteaks.
Based on your accomplishments during your time at the
University of Florida, it is safe to say that you would have
had immense opportunities to earn supplemental income from NIL,
and you mentioned that in your opening statement.
What would this supplemental income have meant to you? And
how would NIL have benefited you as a college football player
and set your family up for financial success?
Mr. Burton. Thank you. Yes. Like you said, in my testimony
I mentioned that I got married and had a kid in my junior year.
So I think that would have, you know, substantially--I think we
all can agree that that would have been really beneficial for
us, my wife through, you know, the birth process, and for
raising up a child, obviously, is very expensive. So, you know,
we kind of had to do our best budgeting that we possibly could
based off of what we got from our scholarship check and from
Pell Grant.
But I also think that my mom was a single mother, and she
raised three boys. And so that easily could have helped, you
know, with whatever situation, you know, we had going on back
then. But then, also, even going forward, I remember my last
game of my career in college against Florida State, I separated
my shoulder.
And I was kind of the guy that was on the bubble, didn't
know if I was going to make it to the NFL, didn't know what the
next move was, but I remember sitting in my house on my rocking
chair with my arm in a sling, and I looked at my wife and I
said, ``We have got to be out of here in a month, because our
scholarship checks are gone. They are done after December.''
And so there was a lot of uncertainty, and I know for sure
if I wouldn't have made it into the NFL, I wouldn't have had
much money, especially I didn't save much money, didn't have
much money to save to start out with, to continue on next--you
know, our next venture.
Mr. Bilirakis. Thank you very much.
Kaley, you are also a student-athlete competing at the
highest level of your sport and have accomplished amazing
things in your time at the Florida State University, such as
breaking the Women's College World Series record for hits in a
single World Series with 14.
Could you elaborate how NIL opportunities have benefited
you as a current student-athlete, particularly competing in
women's sports that don't always have the same lucrative
professional opportunities?
Ms. Mudge. Yes. When NIL came into play in 2021, I was
super excited. I didn't know a lot about what the rules were
going to be and such, but being a partial scholarship student-
athlete has really helped me to help pay for my tuition and
helped pay for my rent and things that I don't have the luxury
of paying for myself.
So NIL has definitely benefited me. And, specifically, with
the deal with our collective being able to help me pay for
nursing school when I am done with softball is going to be
extremely helpful, because I won't have a partial athletic
scholarship when I start nursing school. So NIL has benefited
me in a lot--in a very positive way.
Mr. Bilirakis. Thank you. Thank you very much.
Trey, you shared in your testimony that when you were
playing, athletes had to choose whether to make money or go to
school to pursue an education while playing the sport of their
dreams. I think this is an important reminder that an essential
part of the college athlete experience is the ability to pursue
higher education while playing the sport they love.
What did you get out of being a student during your time
there at the University of Florida? And how can we prevent
disruptions to these educational benefits and this debate about
how to treat college athletes, please?
Mr. Burton. I mean, I got a degree, which is, you know, the
most important during my time there. I think also, like I said,
the relationships that I was able to have, the professionals
that I have been able to meet with--you know, through my
athletic scholarship and because I played football there at the
university.
What was your second question again? Sorry.
Mr. Bilirakis. Yes. Well, just, you know, what did--well, I
am just going to paraphrase. What did the University of Florida
or any college, if you had gone to any college, offer you as a
college athlete?
Mr. Burton. Yes. So tutoring was by far the number-one
thing for me that was offered. I know for sure I have a
reading--not disability, but I have a reading problem. I am
dyslexic, for the most part, and so like having a tutor be able
to like talk to me in the way I needed to be taught was super
beneficial, having them, you know, 24/7. That was probably by
far the number-one thing that was most beneficial for me as a
student-athlete.
Mr. Bilirakis. Very good.
Kaley, as a current student-athlete, do you have anything
to add on the benefits you currently receive as a student? And
how some proposal to change that model may affect your ability
to continue to receive such benefits?
Ms. Mudge. Yes. I feel that the college student-athlete
model that we have today works. I can speak for a lot of
athletes when I say that we have used athletics as an avenue to
get a college degree and that having a partial scholarship
helping to pay for college, being able to play the sport we
love, has also given us an opportunity to get an education.
And if that model were changed and funds could be
redirected away from Olympic sports and away from our
scholarships, we wouldn't be able to play the sport we love and
we also wouldn't be able to--some of us wouldn't be able to
afford college or go to college without the opportunities that
we have been given as a student-athlete. So the student-athlete
model that we have now works.
Mr. Bilirakis. Thank you so very much.
All right. Now I will recognize Representative Castor from
the great State of Florida for her 5 minutes of questioning.
Ms. Castor. Well, thank you, Chairman Bilirakis. Leave it
to you to bring Gators and Seminoles together. And as Tampa
Bay's congresswoman, I want to say to you, Mr. Burton, thank
you so much for your philanthropic activities back home,
including the Mort Elementary Community School.
And, Ms. Mudge, as an FSU alum, I am very proud of your
personal accomplishments and proud to watch how FSU, once known
as a football powerhouse--and doing all right this past year--
but they have really become a women's soccer and women's
softball championship school, and that is not by accident.
You said in your testimony: ``As we celebrate 50 years of
Title IX, it is important that we ensure the opportunities for
participation and access to higher education, particularly for
underrepresented populations,'' that ``they are fostered and
insured. There are many threats through legislation and
litigation that would undermine this model.''
Title IX did not just elevate women in collegiate sports,
but it elevated collegiate sports overall. And my friend and
colleague, Mrs. Trahan, is living proof of that, and she knows
it well.
Title IX prohibits discrimination at federally funded
schools and in collegiate athletics. Name, image, and likeness
policy should not undermine the progress we have made or warp
this--the operation of this important civil rights law.
Commissioner Heppel, do you believe that women have NIL
opportunities as lucrative as their male counterparts? And what
should we be thinking of as we craft some guardrails here
federally to ensure that women and girls have every opportunity
to participate?
Ms. Heppel. Thank you. You know, I--the challenge in
answering that question is that we don't know, right? We don't
have the transparency around what is happening in the NIL
space.
The anecdotal evidence and some of the data through what I
would call voluntary reporting is that, no, you know, what we
are seeing is that NIL is being used as many--not all, I will--
I will caveat there, but recruiting inducements to enroll out
of high school, or--or as transfer, and that I think undermines
what really is the great opportunity that NIL presents.
And so the need for transparency in a national structure in
this area--within the Patriot League, I can say that we have--
you know, we invested as a league in a software platform where
reporting could take place. We have--we crossed four different
States, the District of Columbia, Army and Navy are members of
the Patriot League, the cadets and midshipmen are Federal
employees, so the regulations around Federal employees engaging
in NIL is another----
Ms. Castor. OK.
Ms. Heppel [continuing]. Another--yes.
Ms. Castor. Dr. Abdullah, what do you think we need to--
what kind of guardrails do we need to have in place moving
forward to ensure equity?
Dr. Abdullah. You know, I think one of the critical things
is that we need to make sure that, as students negotiate their
NIL deals, as they work with different institutions, that the
information is transparent, that they can compare information
from one institution and/or collective to another.
And I think if we are able to do that, then students and
student-athletes can successfully negotiate their value on a
higher level.
Ms. Castor. OK. Ms. Mudge?
Ms. Mudge. Yes. I think for guardrails I think it is just--
it would be very helpful for a level playing field. Just with
what we have now, with different States having different rules,
I think that can completely alter where recruits want to choose
their schools based on what State has certain laws.
And I think even with the transfer portal, like people
deciding where they want to go, and I think it would be very
helpful if we just had Federal guardrails and legislation to
keep everybody on the same page to have a level playing field.
Specifically, I can think of transparency with fair market
value. I personally don't know my fair market value. I had
never been taught that. I still haven't. And having the
education to know how much I could ask would be very helpful in
the guardrails.
Ms. Castor. And, Mr. Chun, you had said only 16.2 percent
of NIL deals go to female athletes. My--I am out of time, but
could you provide some guidance in writing for the committee on
this Title IX inequity issue?
Mr. Chun. Yes.
Ms. Castor. Thank you very much.
I yield back.
Mr. Bilirakis. Thank you. Thank you.
Now I will recognize the chairperson of the full committee
and a great friend of mine, and I appreciate her giving me the
opportunity to chair this subcommittee. So I want to recognize
my friend, Cathy McMorris Rodgers, for 5 minutes.
Mrs. Rodgers. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And, Mr. Bilirakis,
you are doing an awesome job leading us. Thank you for today's
hearing.
I wanted to start with Mr. Chun. Just thank you for being
here again. And while there are certainly differences in
resources, even within the Power Five, you represent an
institution with lots of resources for their student-athletes.
Would you just walk us through the ways that you are
helping support and educate young student-athletes at WSU as
they are approached by agents, collectives, and large-dollar
NIL deals?
Mr. Chun. Well, first and foremost, Madam Chair, thank you
for the leadership you provide to eastern Washington, and we
appreciate your leadership on this topic.
At Washington State, our goal is to empower, educate, and
protect our student-athletes. Our program is actually similar
to what is going on at Florida State. We take great pride in,
prior to the NCAA, allowing NIL. We partnered with our Carson
College of Business. We have a credited course on campus that
goes through all of the--all of the major points of NIL from
tax education, managing your social media, contracts. So that
is really probably our biggest piece.
We also have full-time staff that we currently employ that
works directly with our student-athletes. As you are aware, in
the State of Washington we do not have an NIL law.
So we are--we are governed by State ethics laws, so that is
prohibitive on what we can do in terms of directing our
student-athletes with collectives and with deals, but
ultimately we provide as much education and introductions as
possible with our student-athletes while complying with Title
IX NCAA rules and State of Washington rules.
Mrs. Rodgers. Thank you. Would you speak to what you
believe would become of school programs, conferences, if we
fail to provide Federal certainty to the NIL landscape? And how
do you see the NCAA factoring into this future?
Mr. Chun. Well, let me make clear: A true NIL is
extraordinarily positive for student-athletes, and that needs
to continue. It is what is going on with recruiting inducements
with some of these collectives that ultimately are fraudulent
in what they are doing with NIL. And that is--I mean, I read
this morning tracking on Florida Atlantic University--I used to
work there--and their extraordinary run to the Final Four.
In The Palm Beach Post this morning, the head coach is
already talking about tampering by third parties to his
existing roster. That has been happening for weeks. And we have
rules today in the NCAA that don't allow tampering, that don't
allow inducements, but because of the disparate State laws, the
NCAA is at a point now where it is incapable of enforcing those
rules.
So where this thing heads is concerning, because as we
continue to spiral away from any type of commonality with
recruiting, with the impact it is having on student-athletes in
terms of just the amount of noise they have to deal with, as
stated earlier, the value of the degree is what our focus is on
in higher education.
But I do see--I do see impacts. If where we are headed
ultimately leads to, you know, five conferences or a subset of
schools in those five conferences having to deal with this
environment in a different way, does have a negative impact on
the rest of Division I, Division II, and Division III. I mean,
it is clear the business model of NCAA is what we will see this
weekend at the men's Final Four. That funds the entire
operation.
Mrs. Rodgers. Thank you. Thank you.
Dr. Abdullah, does Virginia State have the resources to
support student-athletes in the same way that bigger schools
do? And are athletes seeing the same level of NIL deal
engagement?
Dr. Abdullah. No. Thank you, Madam Chairwoman. No, ma'am.
Virginia State University, as a Division II institution, we
support our athletes and our athletic program almost entirely
on student fees. The amount of funds that the students have in
terms of scholarships and the facilities is quite a bit
different than you would find at a Power Five conference, and
the level of NIL deals that our students have is quite a bit
different.
We do not have an NIL collective at Virginia State
University, and so many of our athletes are successfully trying
to negotiate their own value on the open market. If you----
Mrs. Rodgers. Thank you. Very good.
And, Ms. Mudge, just in the time remaining, would you speak
to Title IX and just how you believe--or just how it can
potentially be reversed in coming years if we don't get this
right?
Ms. Mudge. Yes. I think that Title IX has definitely paved
the way, and I am super grateful for those who have paved the
way before me. And I have had a great experience in my 4 years
as a college athlete, and I would hate to see it reversed by
new models coming in to take away opportunities for the Olympic
sports, especially for women's sports as well.
So I would hate to see college athletes not have the
experience that I have in the future, so I am just grateful for
everything that I have gotten through Title IX.
Mrs. Rodgers. Thank you all for being here. I yield back.
Mr. Walberg [presiding]. I thank the chairman for yielding
back. And as a former wrestler, I am very attentive to the
clock. There were times I wanted to hear that horn sound.
[Laughter.]
Mr. Walberg. And so I will warn my colleagues I am not--I
am not quite as deferential as our chairman of the
subcommittee, so we are going to keep to clock here.
And so now I turn over 5 minutes of questioning to the
ranking member, Representative Schakowsky.
Ms. Schakowsky. I am nervous now. OK. I am watching. I am
moving actually a little away from you. No.
So I wanted to ask Mr. Stahl a couple of questions. I am
wondering--and you are representing Players Association.
Dr. Stahl. Yes, ma'am.
Ms. Schakowsky. Yes. What specific things should college
sports do to improve the healthcare and the safety of our
student-athletes?
Dr. Stahl. Well, I will speak specifically to our football
player members, the CFBPA. I think twofold--first, we should
look at the practice environment. We have a platform plank that
is structured around this. I think the practices environment
right now is pretty much under the control of a coach. Some
coaches are caring; some coaches are not.
And I think that having independent third-party
representatives from CFBPA in those practice environments,
making sure rules and regulations regarding health and safety
were followed, particularly in football where we all know that
brain injuries are so prevalent. They are prevalent most in the
practice situation. So that is what I would say, first.
Second, I think postplaying career, health protections are
integral. Mr. Burton's story I think was one I hear a lot from
our alumni members, quite frankly. Justin Falcinelli is sitting
behind me. He has a very similar injury story of getting an
injury one of the last games of the season. You are going to go
on, you have these NFL dreams, and then what?
And so I think there is this question, then, of what is the
responsibility of the NCAA? Or what is the responsibility of
the member institutions or the conference? We think guaranteed
healthcare standardized across the industry would be a good
starting point.
Access to hospitals and clinics that are on these
universities and campuses I think would be integral to long-
term care, and then also brain injuries, which show up
sometimes decades--you know, after effects from brain injuries,
sometimes decades after they happen.
Ms. Schakowsky. Do you think--are you thinking also about
CTE, not just about concussion?
Dr. Stahl. I mean, I know there is a lot of debate around
CTE. I very much prefer to use the term ``brain injury.'' I
have used it several times here----
Ms. Schakowsky. OK.
Mr. Stahl [continuing]. In part because I think it gets us
out of political debates around CTE.
Ms. Schakowsky. OK.
Dr. Stahl. I think, though, we see and see this in our
alumni members. I can't tell you the number of men I have had
discussions with at 30, 40, 50, 60, still suffering from those
brain injuries that they incurred in college. And we are here
not talking about people like Mr. Burton who went on to the
NFL. We are talking about people strictly with a college
playing career.
Ms. Schakowsky. So let me ask you this. Do you think that
collective bargaining would be helpful for student-athletes?
Dr. Stahl. I do. I think there is a number of forums
collective bargaining could take, though. I am cognizant of
what new NCAA President Charlie Baker said, that there's sort
of two tiers that seem to be happening here. I think long term,
as we look at the evolution of college football, that could be
where we are going.
And so as we think about collective bargaining, a formal
collective bargaining effort through unions, through union
chapters, or through a union at the conference level, let's
say, like we--we have attempted to do in the past, would be
important for those programs at the highest level of play here.
I am talking about what are called Power Five football
programs.
But we have members from all levels of play, and so I think
that is important to talk about. So I think what is appropriate
for a Power Five program or a Power Five conference is not
going to be appropriate for levels on down. But of course those
members need a players association as well, and they need
collective bargaining. I do believe at those levels, though, it
could be done on a voluntary basis.
We have already started doing some of that. We have a core
group of members at a Division I FCS school, and at that school
I have had conversations with the coach that I would
characterize as informal collective bargaining around issues
that are central to our members at that program. So our members
came to us and said, ``We are not getting proper nutrition.''
So, you know, there is a way in which we listen to our
members, and then the bargaining that we would do is dependent
upon what they want to do.
Ms. Schakowsky. Thank you for that. You know, billions and
billions of dollars is involved in student athletics. Not every
institution--I understand that--and not every sport, but we
certainly want to do more, I think, to protect our student-
athletes. I really appreciate that. I also just--well, I guess
I was going to thank Kathy Castor for taking my seat, and I
really thank all of the witnesses. Want to work more with you
as we move forward.
Thank you so much. Thank you.
Dr. Stahl. Thank you, ma'am.
Mr. Walberg. I thank the gentlelady for setting the charted
course now with 4 seconds left to spare.
Ms. Schakowsky. You threatened me.
Mr. Walberg. I would never threaten you.
[Laughter.]
Mr. Walberg. I am not that brave.
I want to recognize now for his 5 minutes for questioning
the gentleman from Indiana, Dr. Bucshon.
Mr. Bucshon. Well, thank you very much, and thanks for this
hearing. It is very timely.
Since coming to Congress, I have had the opportunity to
participate in several hearings related to this issue--back in
2014, related to the attempted unionization of Northwestern
University athletes, is what I am going to comment on.
During my time on the Education and Workforce Committee, I
got to speak with former all-American student-athletes from low
income backgrounds who went on to play professional sports.
They told me about how, when they were in school, however,
despite full scholarships, they couldn't afford a host of
personal expenses, including one of them described going out
for pizza with his friends, his friends paid for that type of
thing because he didn't have the money.
But I also feel like from that hearing and all of the
testimony that an employment model for student-athletes creates
all kinds of unintended consequences and would be very
difficult to maintain the integrity of the student-athlete
system as we know it today. But stories like this are why the
advent of NIL deals occurred and why earnings for such athletes
can be and will be a positive thing.
I am fully supportive of individuals being able to
participate in the free market and to be able to earn what they
can and determine their value as you described.
While I believe we need a system that accommodates such
opportunities, I also recognize the need to preserve the
student-athlete model, as I mentioned, that is relied upon by
the overwhelming majority of athletes. Like many of my
colleagues on this committee, I represent universities with
NCAA Division I athletic programs.
I proudly represent the University of Evansville and
Indiana State University, members of the Missouri Valley
Conference, one of 32 NCAA Division I multisport conferences,
as well as the University of Southern Indiana, which is
currently transitioning from Division II into Division I.
Though you may not have seen many Valley teams competing on
TV or know that its top athletes continue to compete at a
professional, Olympic, and Paralympic levels, the Valley is
representative of the typical collegiate athletic experience
for most student-athletes across the country. They attend
classes, they graduate, and they compete for championships
across 17 sports at the Division I level.
There are approximately 200,000 student-athletes competing
in Division I. Eighty percent of them are thriving and finding
tremendous success in conferences similar to the Missouri
Valley.
So, Dr. Abdullah, I recognize there are differences in the
levels of student support available from schools whose athletic
programs do and do not generate revenue. Is there a risk of
young athletes unintentionally locking themselves out of
financial aid or future NIL opportunities if resources are
limited, especially at smaller schools?
Dr. Abdullah. Thank you, sir, for the question.
Mr. Bucshon. If that makes sense.
Dr. Abdullah. It does. It does. You know, I think it is
critically important that we provide the right opportunities
for our students. One of the things that my athletic director
tells me all the time is that we have to be--we have to be wary
of those who purport to protect student-athletes, and instead
what we need to do at Virginia State is to provide them with
the knowledge and information, so that they can protect
themselves.
I have run into a gentleman today--yesterday at the hotel,
Mr. Jamar Samuels, who was unfortunate--had an unfortunate
incident in 2012 where he was ruled ineligible for accepting
$200. At that time--we all know that before NIL that all of us
were dealing with rules and regulations that we thought to
purport to protect students--student-athletes, and in fact they
weren't doing that.
And so I think that with transparency, even those schools
that have limited resources such as ours, that we can compete
on the open market, albeit quite differently than some of our
colleagues here, and that we can provide quality opportunities
for those young people who choose to come to Virginia State
University.
Mr. Bucshon. Sure. We don't want athletes to make mistakes
that would compromise their futures.
Ms. Heppel, do you believe that institutions distributing
NIL support resources should do so among all student-athletes
and not just those participating in revenue-generating sports?
Ms. Heppel. Thank you. Absolutely. I mean, what we are
talking about are educational resources and tools to be
successful in life as a student, but then beyond, and those
should be equally accessible to all student-athlete
participants.
Mr. Bucshon. You know, what are some potential guardrails
to consider to ensure that institutions do not focus the
overwhelming majority of their NIL support resources for
athletes to revenue-generating sports? I mean, it is a tough--
it is a tough problem, right?
Ms. Heppel. Well, but it is consistent with challenges, and
we already, as leaders in athletics, focus on the well-being of
all of our student-athletes, regardless of the sport. Thank
you.
Mr. Bucshon. Thank you. I yield back.
Mr. Duncan [presiding]. The gentleman's time has expired.
The Chair will now recognize Ms. Blunt Rochester for 5 minutes.
Ms. Blunt Rochester. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. While I was
not an athlete, I did graduate from the Cinderella school that
busted everyone's bracket, Fairleigh Dickinson University, and
I was born in Philadelphia. So on behalf of all of us, we thank
you, Mr. Burton, for the Philly Special.
Thank you to all of the witnesses here for your testimony,
and I am glad that we are having this very important
conversation about the rights and protections of collegiate
athletes. Since 2021, we have taken large strides forward on
the right to benefit from one's own name, image, and likeness.
Still, we are faced with significant questions on how we
should continue to support the rights of collegiate athletes
and ensure they have the right tools to make the best decisions
possible.
Dr. Abdullah, thank you for your testimony and for your
work advocating for HBCUs. As the only member of the House from
Delaware, I have the privilege of representing Delaware State
University here in Congress, and I want to acknowledge your
role on the Presidential Board of Advisors for HBCUs that is
chaired by Delaware's own DSU President, Dr. Tony Allen.
Dr. Abdullah, if a Federal NIL standard were to be
developed, what key provisions would you suggest be included to
help ensure that athletes at midsized schools, smaller schools,
and historically black colleges and universities in particular
are protected and afforded the best opportunity to succeed?
Dr. Abdullah. Thank you so much, ma'am. It is important to
note that there are over 500,000 athletes that participate in
NCAA championship sports. And many of those athletes are at
Division II, Division III, and smaller midmajor institutions in
Division I.
And so designing rules and regulations that are, one,
transparent, but also take into account that there are many
different sizes of institutions that generate quite different
revenue, who offer different sports, but to make sure that we
can provide protection--NIL protection--for all of those
students through transparency.
Ms. Blunt Rochester. In your testimony, you stated the
importance of providing athletes with the proper tools to
manage the responsibilities that come with NIL deals. Ahead of
this hearing, I heard from a group of athletes on Delaware
State University's Student-Athlete Advisory Committee about how
difficult it is to navigate NIL deals and the need for
increased resources and support for athletes interested in
benefiting from them.
Can you talk specifically about what kind of resources or
tools would support HBCUs, such as yourself, and as you support
the athletes navigating these to make sure that they are
protected?
Dr. Abdullah. Our institution, through our athletic
director, Mrs. Peggy Davis, does a lot of the same things that
our other institutions do in terms of providing quality
education for students. But our SAAC director also, Ms. Alexis
Baker, mentioned the same thing as the students from Delaware
State, that really a lack of transparency, not knowing the
rules in different States, not knowing whether she is getting
the best deal in Virginia or whether she should be getting a
deal somewhere else, is critically important. And so
transparency is critical.
Ms. Blunt Rochester. I think that issue of transparency and
also the patchwork nature of what is happening is also very
confusing.
How can we make sure that the competitive disadvantage many
HBCUs and HBCU athletes face as a result of these limited
resources is not exacerbated by NIL?
Dr. Abdullah. Ma'am, I will tell you this. We are proud to
compete against everybody all the time. Whether it is
facilities or resources or coaches, we are always at a
competitive disadvantage in many aspects, but we are proud to
compete. And what we don't want to happen--we want to make sure
that young people have access to find the way to find their
true value and to get their resources, and we would not want to
hold that back.
Ms. Blunt Rochester. Thank you.
And, Mr. Stahl, you mentioned in your testimony that
Dartmouth College is employing a new technology to eliminate
players on the same team hitting one another during practice.
Can you explain this technology in a bit more detail? And is
there--is this something that you think should be scaled up
more broadly? Are there other emerging technologies that show
promise as well for safety and the experience of the collegiate
athlete?
Dr. Stahl. I greatly appreciate that question. Yes, I do
think they should be scaled up. Absolutely. It is--in terms of
cost, I was shocked recently to find out that--so what they use
effectively are robot tackling dummies. They cost about $6,000
each. And so we had somebody from our organization who did this
research to find out, OK, where do these exist, right? There
are some in the pros.
In terms of the top tier of, you know, thinking about Power
Five schools, they are in use at Michigan. Dartmouth, we really
do feel, you know, the Ivy League in particular is at the
forefront here of using this type of technology and showing
that you can win--they have won many Ivy League championships
despite the fact that they are--or I would say because they are
using this technology and practice.
Ms. Blunt Rochester. Well, thank you for your answer. We
will follow up after this as well----
Dr. Stahl. Please.
Ms. Blunt Rochester [continuing]. To get more details, and
I yield back.
Mr. Duncan. The gentlelady yields back.
I will now recognize myself for 5 minutes. We are on our
third chairman today, but I am glad to be chairing this. I have
followed the NIL issue for quite a long time here in Congress.
So as my wife who is in the room with us today can attest,
I am a college football junkie. And Washington State
University, my son and I watch, that is our late-night game on
the East Coast, especially during the 7 years that Mike Leach
was there, rest his soul, and enjoy WSU football.
I will say that I understand that NIL is here to stay, but
I align myself with some comments Jake Sherman made today in
Punchbowl Sports when he said the ability of college athletes
to get paid while they compete has changed the landscape of
amateur athletics. And I agree with that.
I appreciate the amateurism of college sports at all
levels. I say I am a college football junkie, but I like
college sports in general.
As the proud elected representative of South Carolina's 3rd
Congressional District, I have the distinct honor of
representing Clemson University, home to the 2016 and 2018
college football national champions. And I am glad Buddy Carter
isn't here. I don't want to hear about the Georgia Bulldogs. We
hear enough of that. Many of our Tigers have gone on to
illustrious careers in the NFL.
In your written testimonies, Director Chun asked us to
develop Federal standards that provide transparency and
enforceable safeguards to mitigate the negative impact of
existing NIL environment. Commissioner Heppel stipulates the
need for development of a national standard around NIL rights.
Mr. Burton testifies that--to the need to establish a
uniform set of rules with clear guidelines with an eye to pay-
to-play issues and recruiting. And Ms. Mudge says that it is
imperative that we have uniform guidelines and expectations
relative to NIL as opposed to the current framework, and also
with an eye towards potential recruiting problems.
I think that is remarkable--a current athlete, a former
athlete, an athletic director, and a league commissioner in
unanimous agreement on the need for a national standard.
So, Commissioner Heppel, let me start off with
acknowledging something that I think I heard you say, and that
is there is a value of a scholarship and the benefits provided
by the university to college athletes that is often left out of
this debate. They are already getting some value.
And, as Mr. Burton said, the value of that college degree
to go on--and even Ms. Mudge, to go on to a nursing degree and
career, there is value in that, and that needs to be kept in
the forefront as we talk about this.
I am afraid that the redistribution of revenues will affect
the ability of universities to fund some of the lower--I say
lower-tier, they are not--but lower-tier athletic programs,
other than college football, college basketball and baseball,
and some sports.
So, Commissioner Heppel, as a league commissioner, what
should the standards look like?
Ms. Heppel. Thank you, I think. The--no, I mean, I--it is
the key question. I would say that we have to start with what
NIL is not and should not be used as, which is recruiting
inducements and pay-for-play.
Mr. Duncan. Right.
Ms. Heppel. And clearly have regulations that preclude
that, which we do now in the NCAA structure. But, as you noted,
the patchwork of State laws around NIL specifically make that
hard to enforce at a national level, and this is national
competition.
Mr. Duncan. And, look, I agree with you. I mean, the
coaches that are recruiting--and now we are going to have
alumni participating in that--I came through right after the
Charley Pell years at Clemson University, where recruiting
violations by alumni and booster clubs caused us to go on
probation right after our national championship.
I want to move to Mr. Stahl. The ACC Student-Athlete
Advisory Committee in its letter of March 28th states, ``A pay-
for-play model would exacerbate the disparities faced in
women's sports and historically black colleges and universities
as funds will have to be redirected from nonrevenue-generating
sports to almost entirely football and men's basketball. Even
at Power Five level, roughly half of athletic departments run a
deficit annually.
``Directly compensating student-athletes will further
expose challenges to sustain other sports, potentially
forfeiting opportunities for thousands of prospective student-
athletes in years to come. In essence, the college model must
remain unchanged. Congress would do a disservice to student-
athlete sports culture and American society in general if it
passes a bill that diminishes the educational opportunities
that leave schools no choice but to reduce scholarships or cut
programs to budget reallocations.''
Mr. Stahl, unless you can point to a previously unknown
source of funding that keeps these other sports funded as they
are today, I am not willing to kill the aspirations of so many
young athletes who don't play football. Can you speak to that?
Dr. Stahl. What is the question specifically?
Mr. Duncan. So, you know, if you're reallocation--
reallocating these funds, how are the softball players, the
hockey players, the lacrosse, the track and field, how are they
going to be funded? And would this not limit opportunities for
student-athletes at these universities to have the opportunity
to get a scholarship, attend a college, and reap the benefits
that Mr. Burton and Ms. Mudge have?
Dr. Stahl. OK. So there is a levels-of-play question for--
here for sure. And there is new money coming in. So the media
rights contracts that are coming down the pipe now, and all the
Power Five conferences, college football playoff system, we are
talking about many, many, many new billions of dollars.
Mr. Duncan. Well, that is----
Dr. Stahl. The idea----
Mr. Duncan [continuing]. Power Five.
Let's go to Dr. Abdullah. How is your university going to
navigate all that? My time is way over, but quickly.
Dr. Abdullah. I think we--again, our university is
primarily based on student fees. We are managing it now. We are
managing it through NIL, and we believe that transparency will
help athletes be able to determine their value.
Mr. Duncan. OK. Thank you.
My time is up. I will go to Mr. Soto from Florida for 5
minutes.
Mr. Soto. Thank you, Chairman. You know, college sports is
now a $16.6 billion industry. Just incredible when you think
about those numbers. And I want to thank my fellow Floridian
and Chairman Bilirakis for inviting both UF and FSU to this
panel. Let it not be said this committee is not fair and
balanced. That led to a whole rivalry discussion in my office,
so thank you to Gus for that one.
And we have two teams in the Final Four, Miami and FAU,
which also is worthy of discussing how proud we are of both of
those programs.
Many athletes come from communities of color or
socioeconomically disadvantaged communities in college sports--
obviously not everyone--and we have seen it become a volatile
combo over the years with--prior to NIL--name, image,
likeness--compensation being established.
When I was in the Florida Senate, FSU was heading into the
championship, and a major player had legal trouble--a minor
theft--in the midst of all this stuff, because that player
lived in nearly abject poverty, being surrounded by money on
all sides, from students and boosters to universities. And it
just struck me how this person could help lead this amazing
program and still lack basic funds that your average FSU
student had.
And so, in 2021, Florida establishes the new law, first,
establishing an NIL statute. And then they made some reforms in
2023, which I wanted to ask some of our folks about first, that
allows the universities to be involved in setting up
endorsement deals should the college athlete like that want
that to happen.
Two, financial literacy, life skills, and entrepreneurial
workshops. Now NIL contracts can last longer than the period of
that athlete's collegiate career, and college athletes and
their representatives no longer need to disclose the athlete's
contracts to the schools should they not.
So my first question is for Ms. Mudge. Florida law we
talked about has this financial literacy, life skills, and
entrepreneurial workshops requirement. Did you participate in
those workshops? Were those helpful for you or for some of your
colleagues?
Ms. Mudge. Yes. I am not sure if these are the workshops
you are talking about or not, but we were given a lot of
information from our compliance department. And also, having
teammates that are in the NIL courses from Florida State
University, they have learned a lot about how to read
contracts, how to negotiate deals, and just the new world of
how to make a brand for yourself.
I am not particularly sure on which workshops you might be
discussing, but I just feel, as a student-athlete, especially
at Florida State, they have given us a lot of information of
how to go about the new NIL world.
Mr. Soto. Sure. And that definitely sounds like the results
of the new statutes. So thank you, Ms. Mudge.
Dr. Abdullah, do you think these types of workshops would
be helpful nationwide?
Dr. Abdullah. I think they definitely would be helpful
nationwide. And given that our academic institutions--and I
know we all are doing it, but the fact that we are involved in
education--I mean, that is the critical part, and I think it is
very important that we continue to provide guidance for young
people to be able to maximize their value.
Mr. Soto. And, Mr. Burton, you have had the amazing honor
from your hard work of both playing on the collegiate level and
on the NFL level. How important do you think early on getting
some of this financial direction would be, given your
experience with some of your colleagues from college, and then
going into the NFL?
Mr. Burton. Yes. I think it is extremely important. Knowing
what I know now, you know, if I did have NIL, you know, after
playing 7 years in the league and doing endorsement deals and
marketing deals and contracts, I would have been a completely
different person.
So I think, you know, now that guys are--men and women are
starting to get paid, before it was important but you didn't
really know what you didn't know, you know? Like I went to--I
went to classes at Florida about taxes, but I didn't really
understand what taxes were until I got to the NFL and, you
know, half my check is gone. So I think they are extremely
important.
Mr. Soto. It depends on what State you live in, for the
record. And, well, Mr. Burton, you may have a career teaching
NIL financial literacy to one of Florida's local universities,
so----
Mr. Burton. I would love that.
Mr. Soto [continuing]. We certainly appreciate that.
The other thing I want to talk about briefly is, you know,
college sports is glorious but also is dangerous. You can get
injuries that last for years. And so, Mr. Stahl, or Dr. Stahl,
do college sports help support healthcare needs of former
athletes suffering from these injuries after their playing
career is over?
Dr. Stahl. Not as well as they should. I think there really
needs to be a uniform nation--we were talking a lot about
uniform nationwide standards regarding NIL. And I think what we
should actually be talking about is uniform nationwide
standards regarding healthcare after players are done with
their playing days.
Mr. Soto. Thank you, Dr. Stahl.
It is clear we need national rules eventually. Our States
are our workshops on this right now. But I would encourage the
chairman to continue onward for nationwide standards to avoid
this asymmetry in competition we heard a lot about earlier
today.
And I yield back.
Mr. Bilirakis [presiding]. Thank you. Appreciate it very
much.
All right. Now I recognize the vice chairman of the
subcommittee, Mr. Walberg, my good friend from Michigan.
Mr. Walberg. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and now I find out
maybe I could have had my five shoulder surgeries taken care
of.
Appreciate all the witnesses being here today. It is a
topic that--it is past its time of addressing. In 2021, the
State of Michigan passed a name and image and likeness law for
our colleges and institutions. Go Blue, Go Green. But Michigan
is only one State in the patchwork of State NIL laws and is
causing confusion across conferences.
We need to establish clear rules of the road, so athletes,
colleges, and advertisers can all benefit. The radical National
Labor Relations Board--that is my own opinion--in 2021 issued a
memo where the general counsel alleged that student-athletes
had been misclassified and are in fact employees at the
academic institutions.
As a member of the Education and Workforce Committee who
has jurisdiction over this topic, I have heard from smaller
schools in Michigan, such as Adrian College, a school that
blossomed from 800 students to 1,700 students in a short period
of time due to upgrading their athletic programs to over 50
teams, 70 percent of their scholar athletes are involved in
those teams, ranging from of course football and basketball,
lacrosse, hockey, women's hockey, women's synchronized
swimming, Esports, and even bass fishing, which is a revenue
producer for the college.
Sports grew this institution as well as its academic
facilities, chemistry labs, business facilities, et cetera.
Ms. Heppel, the Patriot League competes at the Division I
level amongst schools like Mr. Chun's. But as your testimony
shares, your league represents a diverse group of institutions,
many of whom see reclassifying student-athletes as an employee
as the breaking point for sponsorship of athletic programs.
Can you share more on why many of your institutions have
come to this conclusion?
Ms. Heppel. Thank you. Athletics is conducted and
considered an important cocurricular activity on our campus. It
is part of the educational process and the experience that the
student-athletes receive for being students and being fully
engaged in campus life. That is not an employer-employee
relationship. That is an institutional experience being
provided to a student--to the student body.
So it would be incompatible to consider the student-athlete
an employee in that type of relationship.
Mr. Walberg. Dr. Abdullah, would you care to answer that as
well?
Dr. Abdullah. We have tons of extracurricular activities on
campus, including an award-winning marching band, our debate
club, as well as our student athletics. And so for us, a
university that is committed to amateurism and in a conference
that is committed to amateurism, that would be inconsistent for
Virginia State University.
Mr. Walberg. Appreciate that. In 2014, the NLRB was
involved with the Northwestern football players' effort to
unionize their teams. In 2022, the NLRB was again involved in
an effort to upend the current collegiate sports model.
Dr. Stahl, your organization was involved in a recent
effort to unionize the football team at Penn State. Would you
rather student-athletes unionize, or would you rather there not
be student-athletes at all?
Dr. Stahl. It is up to them. Whatever our members want is
what we try to do. And so our members tell us different things.
When we were organizing Penn State, we actually had a two-tier
campaign.
The second tier said if there is not voluntary recognition
of what we are trying to do, if there is not a coming to the
table voluntarily with coaches, with administrators on campus,
with the commissioner of the Big Ten, then, yes, we might have
to go that more formal route.
But we came out with our hand extended. We said--because
that is what the members wanted to do at Penn State.
Mr. Walberg. At Penn State, they made that choice to not--
--
Dr. Stahl. That is correct.
Mr. Walberg [continuing]. Not unionize. OK.
Dr. Stahl. No. They made the choice to have the
unionization option as the backup option.
Mr. Walberg. As a backup option.
Mr. Chun, would you like to respond to Dr. Stahl on that
issue? And if collective bargaining were to take place, what
resources would have to be relegated, perhaps to the detriment
of students?
Mr. Chun. Complicated question.
Mr. Walberg. And I only have 11 seconds, 10 seconds.
Mr. Chun. I mean, ultimately, we are in a model that puts a
primacy on academics, broad-based programming opportunities for
men and women across multiple sports. Anything that--you look
to my right, how do you--how is a football player unionized or
an employee and a softball player isn't?
We can all sit here and know the inputs are the same. She
is putting as much time in as he did on the--in the weightroom,
in the classroom, in the practice field. There is no difference
other than the venues in which they play in and the amount of
viewership. That is it.
Mr. Walberg. Thank you.
Thank you. I yield back.
Mr. Bilirakis. Thank you very much.
I will recognize the gentlelady from New York, Ms. Clarke.
Ms. Clarke. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman, and I thank
our ranking member. I thank our panelists for being here today
and for really shedding light on a topic that has taken on
great resonance across this--across this Nation.
Recognizing collegiate athletes' name, image, and likeness
rights is a step in the right direction. But it would be a
mistake for this committee not to recognize and address what I
think is the root issue, and that is the empowerment of
collegiate athletes.
I was just having a conversation with my colleague, Mrs.
Trahan, and we are talking about collegiate when in fact the
recruitment of these students starts in their high school
years, right? So if we really want to look at the type of
branding, information, and education, it kind of has to begin
in their high school careers, where they are truly on a track
for that type of education.
But having said that, this multibillion-dollar collegiate
sports industry is built, I believe, off the backs of our
students, mostly black and brown, collegiate athletes, and the
benefits that they have received are very few. The current
system is premised both on collegiate athletes' disempowerment
and unpaid labor, a system some--like sports commentator Bomani
Jones--has termed ``legalized exploitation.''
I think we are at the stage where that tipping point has
been set, and I am hoping that we can move expeditiously to end
the practice.
Mr. Chair, I ask unanimous consent to enter into the record
the March 21st New York Times op-ed entitled ``Even the Supreme
Court Can't Save the NCAA from Itself.''
Mr. Bilirakis. Without objection, so ordered.
[The information appears at the conclusion of the hearing.]
Ms. Clarke. Thank you very much.
In the recent Alston v. NCAA ruling by the Supreme Court,
Justice Brett Kavanaugh wrote in a concurring opinion that
``the current NCAA model is suppressing the pay of student-
athletes who collectively generate billions of dollars in
revenues for colleges every year.''
Those enormous sums of money flow to seemingly everyone
except student-athletes. College presidents, athletic
directors, coaches, conference commissioners, and NCAA
executives take in six- and seven-figure salaries. Colleges
build lavish new facilities, but the students who generate the
revenues, many of whom are African American and from lower-
income backgrounds, end up with little to nothing.
Mr. Chun, what are your thoughts on Justice Kavanaugh's
observations? Is that an accurate characterization of the
current system?
Mr. Chun. The primacy of academic is the number-one
priority of college athletics. The greatest factor today in
social mobility is still a college education.
Our business model is flawed. On most campuses, it is one,
maybe two sports, at least at our level, that provide resources
and revenues to fund the rest of the athletic department. And,
oh, by the way, we are legally obligated to follow Title IX. So
access, opportunity, there has to be equity.
So the model that we have currently provides extraordinary
opportunities for multiple student-athletes. And, oddly enough,
the segment of--there is a certain segment of schools, because
of this men's basketball tournament, that provide opportunities
like Dr. Abdullah said to half a million student-athletes
across 1,200 institutions across three divisions.
So there are inherent flaws in the model. I recognize that.
But the reality is, is it--those flaws are--have created this
opportunity for endless, countless student-athletes.
Ms. Clarke. Very well.
What are your thoughts on Justice Kavanaugh's observations,
Mr. Stahl? Dr. Stahl.
Dr. Stahl. I obviously largely agree with him. I want to--
do want to respond to something that Mr. Chun said, and it has
been repeated, you know, throughout this panel: the supremacy
of the sort of academic mission of the student-athlete, of
higher education, and so on and so forth. I mean, I just think
we all need to acknowledge that that has been severely
degraded.
As you get new billions of dollars into the system, what
becomes of paramount importance is making more of that money,
exercising the power that that money gives you. And so athletes
then, you know, just very base level, like getting to choose
the major they want to, right, this is more and more rare,
particularly for sports like football. Many, many stories I
have heard of, I agree, it should be--it should continue to be
at the center of the vision for college athletics.
But because of these enormous financial pressures on the
system, it is not. And we really do need to address that and
remedy the ways in which I think many college athletes quite
simply just don't get to pick the academic major they want.
Ms. Clarke. Thank you so much, Dr. Stahl.
I yield back.
Mr. Bilirakis. The gentlelady yields back.
I now will recognize Dr. Dunn from the State of Florida----
Mr. Dunn. Thanks very much----
Mr. Bilirakis [continuing]. For your 5 minutes.
Mr. Dunn. [continuing]. Mr. Chairman. After listening to
this excellent panel today, it is abundantly clear that the
patchwork regulatory system for the NIL licenses is simply not
working. State NIL regulations, I believe, began as a well-
intentioned attempt to promote fair treatment of student-
athletes, but unfortunately this turns quickly into a system
where the States are forced to kind of game their programs'
recruiting advantages and disadvantages.
And I think Congress does need to act to promote a fair
nationwide NIL landscape that is transparent and benefits the
athletes without favoring one school or State over another.
I am most concerned with the rise of the collectives that
may be abused by boosters to work around the rules. This can
create undesirable incentives, which brings college athletics
closer to a pay-to-play sort of scheme. I firmly believe we
should be imposing guardrails to ensure the entities operate in
full compliance of the NCAA standards and the law.
Mr. Chun, your testimony mentioned numerous benefits that
the Washington State athletics department provides for student-
athletes. Can you speak to some of the effects--positive or
negative--that your programs may see with boosters donating to
collectives rather than to the athletic departments?
Mr. Chun. Can I get the question repeated? It is--so
positives and negatives of donating to collectives? Did I
understand that?
Mr. Dunn. So, yes, what are the effects--positive or
negative--from the money--the boosters' money going to those
collectives rather than the AD? And to the athletic department?
Mr. Chun. Well, the positives, assuming that there is real
work going on around the country, the--we want to do more for
our student-athletes. Real NIL work we are 100 percent
supportive of. It is what is going on with the inducements and
the tampering that is the challenge, and that is where we need
the help with Federal legislation, with transparency, with
something that proves that there is real work, something that
provides clarity for Title IX.
Across many campuses, you can read it--you can read it
almost daily in sports articles of coaches, administrators,
assistant coaches involved with supporting and advocating for
collectives. Are they representatives of the institution? Does
that trigger Title IX? And also, we probably need something
that takes into consideration international student-athletes.
Mr. Dunn. I was also concerned about the revenue being
diverted, and then, therefore, may not be available to
distribute to the other sports.
Mr. Chun. Well, yes, the collectives are a little bit
different because those are going right to the student-
athletes. It is--as long as there is equity, and as long as
there is real work, there's no issues. It is with the
inducements and with the tampering, that is where all the
challenges are coming and----
Mr. Dunn. Well, thank you, Mr. Chun.
I want to turn to Kaley, Kaley Mudge, and say it is great
to have you here, a softball player at FSU. FSU is in my
district and of course has received multiple honors over the
years. They are very proud of you, Kaley.
I wonder--it is my understanding that you came into FSU
before the NIL laws took effect, and since then things have
changed. Can you tell how your--tell us how your college
experience has changed since NIL laws came out?
Ms. Mudge. Yes. I--even with NIL coming into play, I was
never one to play for the money. Being recruited, money wasn't
an issue for me. I didn't care how much of a scholarship I got.
I just wanted the opportunity to play college softball. And
getting to have the experience for the past 4 years has been
amazing, and it has been the best 4 years of my life for sure.
But now, specifically with the collectives, I personally
have had a very good experience with the FSU collective, but I
do recognize and understand that there are collectives out
there that are, you know, creating the recruiting inducements.
And I think as a 15-year-old, 16-year-old, it is really hard to
turn down that amount of money without the knowledge that they
are given.
So I am grateful that I didn't have that decision when I
was back then, but even now with NIL it has never been about
the money for me. It has just been about the experience.
Mr. Dunn. So I think that is true. I have talked to a
number of student-athletes, and I hear that story again and
again, they don't want to be employees, and they really do love
the game, and I thank you very much for that. Now let me just
say, Go `Noles, you know, so that is--I have got to get my dig
in at Georgia there, right?
So, on March 1st, the NCAA named Charlie Baker as its
president, and that spawned a renewed interest, obviously, in
effective policymaking for the student-athletes.
And, Ms. Heppel, I wonder if you find in the Patriot League
student-athletes graduate with meaningful degrees and are
expected to engage fully in the academic pursuits, and that
they are afforded time and opportunity to do that. Do you think
that happens pretty uniformly?
Ms. Heppel. I do think it is the majority of the experience
of student-athletes. I believe that there are student-athletes
that want to commit 12 months a year to their sport to further
their professional opportunities, and they should have that
opportunity as well, but that the majority of student-athletes
understand that life after college is going to be professional
and career-oriented.
Mr. Dunn. Thank you. Thank you very much.
I yield back, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Bilirakis. Thank you. Thank you very much.
And now I will recognize the gentlelady, Mrs. Trahan.
Appreciate all the good information you have given us thus far.
Thank you.
Mrs. Trahan. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I am not from
Florida, but I have a world of respect for everything you all
do.
Mr. Chun, I am going to start with you, and I am launching
right into questions because my opening remarks were already
given. But as athletic director at Washington State University,
you are responsible for reporting the number of men and women
athletes for Title IX compliance, correct?
Mr. Chun. Yes.
Mrs. Trahan. And the--you must be aware that last year an
investigative report from USA Today found that your university
overcounted your women's rowing roster by 21 athletes and
counted eight male practice players as women's roster spots to
show compliance with Title IX on paper.
Mr. Chun. Yes.
Mrs. Trahan. And it sounds like, just from your direct and
truthful answers, that you understand that by overcounting or
misrepresenting the number of women athletes at your
university, that you are essentially depriving in this case 29
women of the chance to continue their athletic career.
Mr. Chun. Yes. Assuming those numbers are correct, yes.
Mrs. Trahan. So I bring this up because many of my
colleagues on the committee may not be aware that the
Department of Education allows colleges to exploit loopholes,
like overcounting women athletes, double or triple counting
them, or even counting male athletes as women to comply with
Title IX on paper.
Of course, just because the Education Department allows it,
it doesn't mean it is right to make college athletics less
available to women athletes. And I bring this up not to put you
on the spot, Mr. Chun, but we can't talk about NIL rights,
particularly for women athletes, without talking about how some
schools exploit loopholes that deprive women of the opportunity
to play in college in the first place.
It is for this reason that I introduced the Fair Play for
Women Act with Congresswoman Adams and Senator Murphy to close
these loopholes. And I would encourage my colleagues on the
committee to join me in supporting legislation that not only
strengthens NIL rights but closes these loopholes as well.
I will switch gears, because I would like to talk about one
of the biggest issues facing college athletics in the
postamateurism landscape, and that is collectives. As some of
my colleagues have rightly pointed out today, the emergence and
embrace of NIL collectives has created a number of questions
over the past year and a half.
Mr. Chun, are you familiar with the Cougar Collective, the
NIL collective associated with WASU?
Mr. Chun. Yes.
Mrs. Trahan. And do you or athletic department staff,
including coaches, communicate directly with members of the
Cougar Collective? And, if so, do they discuss potential
recruits that a team may be hoping to land a commitment from?
Mr. Chun. Not with me directly, and not to my knowledge
with any of our coaches. Our interaction with them has been
education. They have done compliance education with us. Really,
we meet--our compliance staff probably meets with them at
least--I think they have a standing meeting once a month, just
to ensure compliance with the rules.
We are fortunate our collective is filled with alums that
care about the institute that are----
Mrs. Trahan. Sure.
Mr. Chun [continuing]. Really focused on following whatever
rules exist. And we do not have an NIL law in the State of
Washington.
Mrs. Trahan. So I have--I think one of the things that we
need to talk about when we are talking about these collectives
are whether or not, you know, there are conversations about
specific athletes in tandem with universities.
Mr. Chun, is it your understanding or your belief that the
Cougar Collective prioritizes women athletes at the--as equally
as they do male athletes?
Mr. Chun. I know they have had conversations. We do not
have access to what exact deals are happening, but I know they
have communicated to us that they are working to try to find
opportunities for our women. They understand, you know, at our
institution specifically, I mean, our women sports are
performing at pretty spectacular levels.
So they recognize the challenges that our women coaches
have as well, but we do not--there is no--we don't have any
clarity exactly on what the deals are.
Mrs. Trahan. Mr. Stahl--Dr. Stahl, I am sorry--I am curious
to hear your thoughts on this as well. Are you aware of active
collusion between athletic departments and collectives? And
would you say that, generally speaking, collectives tend to
approach NIL arrangements with the goal of equally supporting
men and women athletes?
Dr. Stahl. I mean, it depends on what you mean by
``collusion.'' I think one of the reasons I found the
discussion somewhat odd today about collectives is what I know
from around the country is athletic department heads, like Mr.
Chun, are encouraging donors to donate money to collectives. It
is a huge thing. It happens everywhere.
And so, you know, to the extent that we would need some
sort of NIL Federal law, like what exactly would they want said
about collectives? Just the messaging is very unclear.
So, in terms of collusion, I mean, that----
Mrs. Trahan. Coordination.
Dr. Stahl. Well, athletic director--I will put it very
simply. Athletic directors around the country are absolutely
encouraging donors to donate money to collectives. This happens
everywhere.
Mrs. Trahan. In addition to that, it would also be helpful
as we consider where the boundaries of Title IX are if we are
also having conversations about specific recruits and how those
collectives are set up to recruits to--to recruit athletes,
excuse me.
Thank you. I know I am over my time, Mr. Chair. I yield
back.
Mr. Bilirakis. Thank you. Thank you so much.
Now I will recognize Mrs. Lesko from the great State of
Arizona. You are recognized for 5 minutes.
Mrs. Lesko. Thank you all for being here. And I am from
Arizona, so I am proud that the University of Arizona, Arizona
State University, and Grand Canyon University all made the NCAA
men's basketball tournaments this year.
I have a question for Mr. Chun. Mr. Chun, we have talked
about this a bit, but over 30 States have passed laws relating
to name, image, and likeness rights. Some of these laws have
been in effect for over 2 years. While the need for a uniform
policy is understood, can you cite specific examples where a
State was significantly advantaged or disadvantaged as compared
to another State, and the impacts they have had on a student-
athlete monetizing their name, image, likeness?
Mr. Chun. Well, I can--I can just cite our own State.
Because we don't have a law, initially I thought that would be
to our advantage and give us flexibility. But in all reality,
we are governed by State ethics law, so it is really
restrictive on comparatively what other States are doing.
So, in the State of Washington, really they are limited to
education, but we can't steer our student-athletes towards
specific deals or work with collectives, as it has been
legalized in some other States.
Mrs. Lesko. And, Ms. Mudge, speaking--what are some of the
biggest concerns among student-athletes regarding NIL? And how
can Federal legislation mitigate them?
Ms. Mudge. I think for the Federal legislation it would
just be helpful to be on the same page. I know there is still a
lot of information that we can learn about. NIL, I would say
one of the biggest concerns is just education and knowledge of
what NIL is, how can we use it to our advantage.
I know for me, going into the NIL space, I was very nervous
my first couple of deals, because the last thing I want to do
is put my eligibility in question. And my compliance
department, my athletic department, has been very helpful in
teaching me and educating me, but I think across the board it
would help to have more education federally with all of the
schools in our Nation, just to teach us what NIL is, how to
read contracts, how to see a good deal from a bad deal. I feel
like there's a lot of people that could take advantage of how
young we, as student-athletes and college student-athletes,
are.
So I think just being able to have legislation, so that we
are on the same page and we do have a level playing field no
matter what State that you are in, and just having the
education to learn more.
Mrs. Lesko. Thank you very much.
Mr. Chun, it is my understanding that NIL collective can
offer student NIL deals before they commit or show up on
campus. First of all, is that correct?
Mr. Chun. Not based on NCAA rules, but probably different
by the--part of the issue with the patchwork of State laws.
Mrs. Lesko. And so my question is, how do we ensure that
NIL deals aren't being used to persuade students to pick
certain schools?
Mr. Chun. That is why we need a Federal standard.
Mrs. Lesko. Some people have proposed ideas like making
student-athletes employees of the university. How could this
hurt smaller sports in smaller universities? And will some
universities choose to get rid of intercollegiate sports
programs altogether?
Mr. Chun. I don't know how you differentiate one sport from
the other relative to the employment. So if we are--I don't--
like I stated earlier, the inputs are the same. The commitment,
the sacrifice, all the things that go into being a student-
athlete are no different for a softball player or volleyball
player, football player, basketball player. No difference
between our men's and women's basketball programs.
I don't know how you cite one as employees and the other
one not. So it is just fundamentally flawed there, and I also
don't--the notion of underperformance leads to firing just is
counter to college athletics. It is about academics. It is
about earning that degree. It is the immeasurable impact
college athletics has.
Mrs. Lesko. Mr. Stahl, you had mentioned along the way in
some of your testimony about health coverage for student-
athletes. And I just was wondering if you would expand upon
what you are looking for. Is it lifetime health coverage? What
are you asking the universities to pay for?
Dr. Stahl. I am asking them primarily to negotiate about
what is appropriate, right? So we don't--we are not coming into
this and saying it has got to be X, Y, and Z. I certainly have
ideas. Our members have ideas. I think, you know, back to the
main point of my testimony, I think that the problems of the
industry are enormously solvable by those within the industry,
including the players through our independent players
associations.
And so this is one of the things we would like to sit down
and talk with Mr. Chun about or, you know, we could have it at
an institutional level, a conference level, what have you. I
think this is how you get to actual workable solutions. It is
not through Federal legislation written by people who are not
involved in the industry.
Mrs. Lesko. Thank you, and I yield back.
Mr. Bilirakis. Thank you. I now will recognize the
gentleman from Georgia, Mr. Allen, please, for 5 minutes.
Mr. Allen. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I want to thank all of
our witnesses for being here today. This is a very complex
issue, and it--you know, college sports is a very special and
particularly American tradition.
And, as an alumni, I know I enjoy college sports, and I
enjoyed playing in high school. Played football and basketball
and baseball, and--but when I got to college, my abilities were
better served to get in the workforce. And so I was able to get
a job and put my way through college.
However, my roommate was a walk-on, and he didn't enjoy the
same opportunity. He was--I mean, even back then, it was full-
time. I mean, he couldn't get--he couldn't get a job. So,
obviously, his situation was compromised. I mean, you know,
because, I mean, where are you going to get the--you know, you
want to enjoy the college experience, but then again, you know,
and you don't want to be sitting there with a family worried
about how you are going to feed them.
So I agree something has to be done here, because, you
know, college football, you play it because you love it, or
basketball or baseball or women's softball. I mean, you have
said, ``The reason that I am doing this is because this is what
I want to do.''
But, at the same time, you know, it is--even in high school
today--I mean, I have got 14 grandchildren, and I go to their
sporting events, and they are full-time. I mean, it is
incredible what sports--it has just taken over. And you get on
a travel team, and you are all over the place. It is amazing. I
don't know how these parents do it today.
But so, you know, you have asked Congress to solve this
problem, because you are going across State lines. OK. And when
you are going across State lines, you have got varying laws in
States. I mean, what is going to keep an athlete who travels
over to--from Georgia to Alabama to play football, and there is
a different deal over here? So I agree there has got to be
some--there have got to be some guardrails here.
Mr. Chun, how many athletes in your program since NIL was
originated have entered the transfer portal to improve their
NIL opportunity?
Mr. Chun. That is a very good question. That I could not
give you an exact number because it would just be based on
rumors.
Mr. Allen. Right.
Mr. Chun. But----
Mr. Allen. But it happens.
Mr. Chun. It happens. And it is the reality. I mean, we are
seeing it all across men's basketball right now with entering
the portal, and you can see the list--go on social media and
see the listing of schools that are so-and-so contacting X
person, and--but it is the reality of the world we are in right
now.
Mr. Allen. Right. You mentioned that currently there is a
team in the NCAA basketball that the coach is tampering. What
do you mean by ``tampering''?
Mr. Chun. So what I read--and, well, what was--what was
articulated in the story was during--throughout their
tournament, the run for Florida Atlantic, the coach articulated
that third parties----
Mr. Allen. Right.
Mr. Chun [continuing]. Were reaching out to his current
athletes--and they play this Saturday in their pursuit for a
national championship--about going to their schools. That is
tampering.
Mr. Allen. Really. Wow.
Mr. Chun. We have--and it is probably at its lowest levels
or worst levels----
Mr. Allen. Right.
Mr. Chun [continuing]. But yes.
Mr. Allen. And, as I understand it, on the NILs and where
this money is coming from, it is coming from alumni primarily,
isn't it? Is that where the colleges are getting the----
Mr. Chun. The collectives.
Mr. Allen. The collectives----
Mr. Chun. But----
Mr. Allen. Yes.
Mr. Chun [continuing]. There's companies involved. I mean,
it is a blend of true NIL, and if it is a recruiting----
Mr. Allen. So, for example, if you had alumni
participating, their business participating in this, they
wouldn't be apt to want that money to go to--you know, as far
as parity is concerned. In other words, if they are doing it
for college football, that is where they want that money to go.
Would that--could they--can they decide or direct the money
that they put in the NIL to go to one specific sport or one
specific college?
Mr. Chun. Well, I think if it is true NIL, it is--you know,
we are not--I would not suggest limiting anything for student-
athletes. That is true NIL, that is endorsement opportunities,
that is--that they are paying for actual real work. It is----
Mr. Allen. Right.
Mr. Chun. If it is inducement or recruiting tool,
tampering, that is where the issues come into play.
Mr. Allen. And that, Dr. Abdullah, is what would be
affecting you is that, you know, these collectives would then--
in order for parity to exist, equity to exist, these
collectives would then have to funnel so much money to athletes
in our Division I, II, and HBCU schools as well.
Dr. Abdullah. Yes. It would make it difficult to have
parity. But I think that 70 percent of my kids are Pell
eligible, and so for me and for my kids it is about the--it is
about their ability to get funds so they can go to school and
maybe have possibly the biggest payday that they can have. And
so I firmly am behind them trying to do the best that----
Mr. Allen. Right.
Dr. Abdullah [continuing]. We can.
Mr. Allen. And I agree. Thank you.
I yield back, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Bilirakis. Thank you. Excellent questions, by the way.
All right. Mrs. Harshbarger, you are recognized for 5
minutes.
Mrs. Harshbarger. OK. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Thank you all for being here. I am going to tell you some
things that I have learned from talking to different schools,
and you correct me if I am wrong, and then I will give you some
questions. OK? How about that?
You know, I want to talk about portals. I want to talk
about agents. And then I want to hit the collectives. I mean, I
don't really want to hit them. I just want to see if what I
have learned is true.
The portals. There's no contracts. These athletes are free
agents every year. Am I correct? You can play for a year, then
go into the portal, see if you can get more money, and then I
guess stay with the school that you were planning if you don't
get more money? Is that correct? Yes or no. Or is it true? Ms.
Heppel, maybe you know.
Ms. Heppel. I am looking down to the left for--you know,
the transfer portal is the means by which student-athletes are
able to let other schools know that they are interested in
transferring.
Mrs. Harshbarger. So if a student goes through that
portal--and this is what I have come to the understanding--if
they have a scholarship on the table and they go through the
portal, from what I am understanding, is 35 to 40 percent of
these student-athletes will lose their scholarship if they are
not picked up in the portal. Am I correct?
Ms. Heppel. That is a possible outcome----
Mrs. Harshbarger. Yes.
Ms. Heppel [continuing]. When they inform their current
school----
Mrs. Harshbarger. Absolutely.
Ms. Heppel [continuing]. That they are looking elsewhere.
Yes.
Mrs. Harshbarger. All right. That is a bad thing. You know,
and I am all for like a revenue-sharing model, and I think that
is what it was intended to be.
Let's go to these agents or so-called agents that are
recruiting young women like you, and some of these young men.
You know, I don't even know what the criteria is for these
agents, and, you know, you get a 3 to 4 to 5 percent recruiting
fee, but then I have heard that some of these agents will
garner up to 80 percent of that student's income, which is
pathetic. There is no regulation there.
And I will put it to you this way. Based on what I have
seen over the last couple of years, it is clear that the
courts, nor the States, can establish uniform rules. Therefore,
you are sitting in front of Congress, probably not where you
want to be.
But something has to be done. What do you think about the
revenue-sharing model for these schools per sport? And I
understand on a first-sports basis football, you wouldn't be
able to do that. Am I correct?
Ms. Heppel. Not within the Patriot League.
Mrs. Harshbarger. Yes.
Ms. Heppel. There is not revenue generated from any of the
individual sport programs within the league.
Mrs. Harshbarger. And I have heard that these agents should
be maybe in a marketing capacity where a certain percentage is
what they get. But correct me if I am wrong, this, too, I
understand that you have got these collectives that are--you
know, 60 percent of their NIL payments come from wealthy
donors, and that is not sustainable. If you have one donor that
gives 8 to 10 million, they are not going to do that every
year.
But now I understand that schools are allowed to help them
fund raise. Is that correct? And that happened in October of
last year? Do you all know about that?
Ms. Heppel. As of this moment in time, I am not aware of
any collectives within the Patriot League. So I would----
Mrs. Harshbarger. OK.
Ms. Heppel [continuing]. Be hard-pressed to speak to----
Mrs. Harshbarger. OK. Because--I won't blame the schools,
but I was told that now they are using athletic associate
foundations to recruit, because sometimes these donors go out
and recruit athletes that the school really didn't want to
recruit, and they are stuck with them.
So now, through these foundations, the schools can have
some input on who they want them to go after. So that is
something to be looking for.
You know, there are just a lot of unknowns here. I know
there's something else on here that I--I just needed
clarification about this, because if we need a standardized--if
we need to do standardized legislation, that is what we are
here to do. But I have to have all of the facts, and I have to
have correct facts and not hearsay in order to do that.
What do you think Congress should do? What about the
revenue-sharing models with some of these companies and
corporations? What is your opinion? We can just go down the
line.
Ms. Heppel. You know, I think as I have read that revenue
sharing, to me anything that opens the door toward an employee
status we need to be cautious, very cautious about.
Dr. Abdullah. I think we need to make sure that the
athletes that are involved in these revenue-generating sports
and generating a lot of revenue, that they have the opportunity
to find out what their value is and to get funds for that
value.
Mrs. Harshbarger. Absolutely.
Mr. Burton. I am against revenue sharing from like--in the
sense of employee or employment, because that is where, in my
opinion, amateurism becomes professionalism.
Mrs. Harshbarger. Yes.
Ms. Mudge. As an Olympic sport athlete, I am also against
revenue sharing. Just I want future softball players, future
college athletes, to have the same experience that I did, and
it is scary to think that the funds that are used to fund
softball could be taken away and that Olympic sports wouldn't
be a thing anymore. So, yes.
Mr. Chun. I would agree. I don't--I don't see if--how
this--how an employment model works across all the sports that
are sponsored across the NCAA.
Dr. Stahl. We take the position in our platform: Percentage
of the big money and media rights revenue contracts for the
players whose name, image, and likeness is used in that media,
there is going to be billions of new dollars in the coming 2
years, and the players whose--who generate that wealth should
be able to share in it.
Mr. Bilirakis. OK. Thank you. Thank you very much.
The gentlelady yields back.
Mrs. Harshbarger. I yield back.
Mr. Bilirakis. Now I will recognize the gentleman from
California, Mr. Cardenas, for 5 minutes.
Mr. Cardenas. Thank you very much. Appreciate Chairman
Bilirakis, and also Ranking Member Schakowsky, for holding this
hearing. And thank you for allowing me to waive on to the
committee so that I can get involved in this discussion before
the American people, who hopefully are watching.
And this topic is very important, and I am glad that we are
having this discussion, though my colleagues have pointed out
the range of issues confronting student-athletes today goes
well beyond NIL concerns. In 2021, the NCAA brought in $1.15
billion in revenue--that is with a B. The product that they
garnered this money from comes from young adults who put their
bodies on the line to bring to viewers across the country and
across the world what generates all of this money.
And, therefore, it goes--should it go anywhere else?
Absolutely, I think that the people who are actually putting
their bodies on the line, putting their--in some cases putting
their life on the line, should be able to benefit from all of
this revenue and what actually creates the revenue.
Mr. Chun, could--would collegiate athletes be better
protected if they were part of a union?
Mr. Chun. I know the student-athletes at Washington State,
the benefits and services that they are provided, along with
being a part of the Pac-12, provide a litany of academic
support, strength and conditioning support, and----
Mr. Cardenas. So are they better off now that they have
that opportunity?
Mr. Chun. You would--I would need a point of reference on
what----
Mr. Cardenas. OK.
Mr. Chun [continuing]. ``Better off'' means.
Mr. Cardenas. Thank you.
Mr. Chun. Yes.
Mr. Cardenas. Mr. Stahl, do you agree that they are better
off today than they were before they had that opportunity?
Dr. Stahl. Before they had what opportunity, sir?
Mr. Cardenas. The opportunity to have representation.
Dr. Stahl. Well, we are still in that middle space where
that is what we are trying to provide. We are trying to provide
representation. And for college athletes who do want to attempt
to unionize, we want to be there to help facilitate that.
And to answer your first basic question: Yes, absolutely.
Anyone who is, you know, going to be a member of a union is
going to have far more workplace protections than someone who
isn't.
Mr. Cardenas. So are there people on the campus who are
actually members of unions who actually go to work there every
day?
Dr. Stahl. Oh, absolutely. Yes. I mean, the universities
bargain with unions across--every university in this country
bargains with unions, yes.
Mr. Cardenas. And those employees who are on that
university who go to work, whether they teach or whether they
are janitors or what have you, who are members of unions, are
they better off now that they have representation than before
they had representation?
Dr. Stahl. A hundred percent.
Mr. Cardenas. Well, I would venture to believe that
students would benefit as well if they had representation in
any environment on any campus, especially when they are the
ones at the core of generating the revenue, not just the
revenue that I just spoke of--that was just the NCAA's revenue
in 1 year--much less the revenue that is actually generated in
other aspects as well.
One of the things that I would like to point out is that
the stated mission of these unions is to empower individuals to
create a strong collective voice and to achieve and maintain
excellent wages and benefits and working conditions.
So, Mr. Stahl, would collegiate athletes be able to have
better representation, be in better situations? And what is the
biggest obstacle to collegiate athletes organizing today?
Dr. Stahl. Fear of retaliation. I mean, we saw this at Penn
State this past summer. I think there is----
Mr. Cardenas. What did that retaliation look like?
Dr. Stahl. Well, I think there is just an issue of there
is--within college football--again, I am only going to speak to
our members. I am only going to speak for----
Mr. Cardenas. Sure.
Mr. Stahl [continuing]. College football.
Mr. Cardenas. Sure. Please.
Dr. Stahl. Yes. I think within college football you have
ample opportunities for retaliation against players who would
want to engage in organizing efforts, either towards the union
or towards something else, right? Some sort of voluntary
chapter within a players association.
There are so many men who are on these teams, right? If you
engage in this type of organizing effort, retaliation can take
the form of something you are just not even going to notice,
right? Loss of playing time, right?
And so, yes, I do think that is my biggest fear for sure.
Mr. Cardenas. Thank you. I have an article here written by
Notre Dame University President John Jenkins who discusses some
of the support that Notre Dame gives voluntarily on their own,
their internal policy towards student-athletes. Notre Dame
provides 10 years of coverage for its athletes after an injury
occurs and guarantees that student-athletes will keep their
scholarship regardless of performance on the field or injury.
I would like to submit this for the record, Mr. Chairman,
if----
Mr. Bilirakis. Without objection, so ordered.
[The information appears at the conclusion of the hearing.]
Mr. Cardenas. OK. Thank you so much.
Obviously, Notre Dame is a large and well-funded
institution. Dr. Abdullah, what sort of support would you need
from the NCAA in order to provide similar protections for your
athletes at your school or at a school the size of Virginia
State?
Dr. Abdullah. The easy answer is we would need additional
revenue to be able to provide all of those.
Mr. Cardenas. OK. Does it sound like an organization that
pulls in over $1 billion a year might, if they choose to, be
able to provide that kind of support, so you could meet them
halfway maybe and make it happen?
Dr. Abdullah. I imagine that they would, sir.
Mr. Cardenas. OK. Thank you so much.
I yield back the balance of my time.
Mr. Bilirakis. Thank you. I thank the gentleman.
I now recognize the lady that represents Gainesville,
Florida, home of the University of Florida Fighting Gators. You
are recognized for 5 minutes, ma'am.
Mrs. Cammack. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And, as always, it
is great to be a Florida Gator. Trey knows what we are talking
about. Sorry, FSU, I know you hate that. But this is a great
day. Regardless, I think we are going to see some great
bipartisan work done in the way of addressing this issue that I
think should have been addressed a while ago. I think the cat
is a little bit out of the bag.
Back in 2021 when States started putting the patchwork
framework together, it kind of made a bit of a mess for us on
this side of it, but we are here now.
So I am going to start with you, Ms. Mudge. Should NIL
contracts be permitted when a student-athlete sport is in
season? Or should there be a balanced approach in how NIL rules
are applied when a student-athlete is in or out of season?
Ms. Mudge. Yes. That is a great question.
Mrs. Cammack. Thank you. It is a Gator question.
Ms. Mudge. I would say that NIL contracts should be
permitted in season. I think it is a very individualistic
approach, as I have teammates that don't want to benefit from
NIL and don't want to pursue certain opportunities, and I have
teammates that do. And I think that is the freedom of NIL, is
that we can choose.
I personally don't feel too stressed during season to go
forward with NIL contracts. And if I do, the companies that I
have been able to talk with have been very, very lenient and
very helpful in understanding my schedule. So I personally
don't think that there should be certain times when NIL can and
can't happen for athletes, just because of the freedom that we
have the control to choose if we want to do a deal or not.
Mrs. Cammack. Thank you.
Mr. Burton, same question to you.
Mr. Burton. No, not at all. I mean, what happens if I
score, you know, five or six touchdowns in the game, you know,
and the next day someone wants to give me an NIL deal. So I
don't think--by no means do I think there should be a limit on
when or how or anything like that on NIL. Make as much--the
players should be able to make as much money as they possibly
can from that standpoint.
Mrs. Cammack. OK. Thank you.
Mr. Abdullah, same question to you from the university
perspective.
Dr. Abdullah. Excuse me, ma'am. Would you mind repeating
the question?
Mrs. Cammack. Should student-athletes be able to engage in
NIL deals during their season or not?
Dr. Abdullah. I believe so. I believe that student-athletes
shouldn't have any restrictions on their ability to generate
NIL dollars.
Mrs. Cammack. OK. Excellent.
Mr. Chun, you described your extensive work with several of
the NCAA committees, including the Transformation Committee.
You briefly touch on the issues with a potential employer-
employee situation regarding the student-athletes. And I wanted
to know, did you guys touch on any of the revenue-sharing
models, the impact that that would have, if it were applied to
all sports? If so, did you simulate what specific actions, if
any, athletic departments would take in order to comply with
the type of model?
Mr. Chun. We did not.
Mrs. Cammack. Wow, that was the shortest answer ever. All
right. Thanks.
This one is for you, Ms. Heppel, and also to you, Mr. Chun.
Should there be an office or a clearinghouse specifically
within either schools, conferences, or the NCAA to review and
validate companies or individuals, not necessarily contract
details, but those that seek to partner with student-athletes
for an NIL deal?
We will start with you, Ms. Heppel.
Ms. Heppel. I think that is a great question, and I think
it is something I have thought a lot about. I think the
importance of ensuring student-athletes understand what their
fair market value is and ensuring that they are entering into
legitimate deals are the two paramount issues.
Mrs. Cammack. Absolutely. Mr. Chun?
Mr. Chun. Nothing to add. I agree with that. The clarity
that student-athletes would get from understanding the market--
and I think someone mentioned earlier just seeing what also is
appropriate to have with your attorneys or agents that are
representing you from a commission standpoint, those are
critical factors for our student-athletes.
Mrs. Cammack. Excellent. Going back to you, Ms. Heppel,
according to the NCAA, over 20,000 international students
compete in collegiate athletics. These athletes are precluded
from engaging in NIL activities because of what that would mean
for their visa status and employment status.
What steps can Congress take to allow for these athletes to
take advantage of the same types of opportunities that are
available to their peers? And what would we expect the impact
to be on the athletic programs within the universities?
Ms. Heppel. I--you know, I am not an immigration lawyer,
and I think that is where some of this has been hung up, from a
pure--as a commissioner of an athletics conference, with
schools that recruit nationally and internationally, I don't
differentiate, and we don't differentiate on our campuses. All
student-athletes should ideally have access to NIL
opportunities.
Mrs. Cammack. From the nodding of everyone's heads, I feel
like everyone is in agreement on that. All right. Excellent.
And since I have got--well, I am 7 seconds over. With that,
I guess I--Mr. Chairman, I yield back, and of course, go
Gators.
Mr. Bilirakis. Go Gators.
All right. Next we have Mr. Fulcher from the great State of
Idaho. Thank you. I recognize you for 5 minutes.
Mr. Fulcher. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Just a little bit ago
I told my good friend from Georgia I wish I knew a good
congressman that would fix a lot of this stuff. But maybe we
are short on those too.
I wanted to start with Ms. Mudge, and you said you are
about to graduate, as I recall. So look back at the day you
enrolled, just in your mind, and tell me if there is anything
that you wish you would have known then that you know now about
NIL.
Ms. Mudge. That is a great question. I would say I wish I
knew more back then. I wish that there would have been more
Federal legislation, just because I feel like the past 2 years,
even though I have been able to capitalize on my NIL, it has
been very confusing and very just hard to distinguish what
deals I can do, what I can't do.
I am very grateful for my athletic department and
compliance department for seeing me through those tough times,
but I wish that back then I would have been able to have more
clear-cut rules of what I could and couldn't do. And I remember
when NIL came into play, like I had questions as to why someone
in Oklahoma or North Carolina could do things that I couldn't
as an NIL athlete. And just the confusion of having different
State laws for NIL was really hard for me as a student-athlete,
as I am sure I can speak for most student-athletes as well.
So I do wish that even though that--I can't turn back time
that we could pass Federal legislation and Federal guidelines
soon, just to create just a level playing field and no more
sense of confusion.
Mr. Fulcher. Thank you for that.
Mr. Burton, you are in a different place in your life. You
have gone through a professional career as well now. But same
question. Reflect back before you enrolled in college, and can
you address that as well, please, what you wish you would have
known then that you do now?
Mr. Burton. Well, I would say 100 percent finances. My
mom--single mom, didn't have much money, grew up with, you
know, not much, was really thankful for support from family all
across the country, and they provided, you know, a lot for us.
So finances--like, for example, I remember when I got to
Philadelphia I was an undrafted free agent. I signed a $10,000
signing bonus, and they gave me 7,500 bucks. And I said, ``You
said 10,000, not 7,500. Where did the rest of the money go?''
And then they explained taxes to me.
So just, you know, financial literacy. I think now--now
having money, it is way more important, and I pay way more
attention than I did before when I didn't have money.
Mr. Fulcher. Thank you for that. And we know taxes here.
Shifting gears a little bit, Mr. Abdullah, you referenced
something, but not very deep. I would like to go just a little
bit deeper. It has to do with agents. How do you protect your
student-athletes from perhaps agents or agent access that may
not have their best interests in mind? What are some of the
things you do?
Dr. Abdullah. You know, what we do at Virginia State is
provide critical education, have them actually meet with agents
on campus and talk about what it means to have a positive
relationship.
But I think the real key to making sure across the board
that student-athletes are protected is to provide a level of
transparency and interactions--and I think it is a question
that Ms. Heppel answered just a minute ago--that the more
transparency that we have across the board where people
understand the deals that are happening, I think the student-
athletes and the young people can successfully negotiate and
use the right representation to get that done.
I think the more that we keep things in the dark and keep
them opaque, I think, is ripe for exploitation of athletes.
Mr. Fulcher. Thank you for that.
Mr. Chun, can you address that question? Agents, how do you
deal with that? Maybe the ones who are not so interested in the
well-being of your student-athletes.
Mr. Chun. I agree wholeheartedly with what was said. We
need transparency in the marketplace. We ultimately--and we
need to allow our student-athletes all the information
necessary as they make decisions. We can educate as much as we
want, and we are no different than probably all the schools
represented here where we go to great lengths to make sure our
student-athletes understand all of the points that go into
being in this NIL marketplace.
But at the end of the day, they do need some transparency
to understand what is--what is out there in the marketplace.
Mr. Fulcher. Ms. Heppel, comment? Quickly.
Ms. Heppel. I completely agree with the prior comments.
Mr. Fulcher. All right. Mr. Chairman, I yield back. Thank
you.
Mr. Bilirakis. Thank you very much. Appreciate it, and the
gentleman yields back.
I now recognize the gentleman from Georgia, probably the
number one Georgia----
Mr. Carter. How did you know I was from Georgia?
Mr. Bilirakis [continuing]. Bulldog----
[Laughter.]
Mr. Bilirakis. Yes. How did I know? OK. Well, I have got to
be fair. I have got to be fair.
Mr. Carter. Sorry.
Mr. Bilirakis. Anyway, national champion--two-time national
championships, back to back, from the University of Georgia----
Mr. Carter. Take as much time as you want.
Mr. Bilirakis [continuing]. Mr. Carter.
Mr. Carter. Mr. Chairman, take as much----
Mr. Bilirakis. All right.
Mr. Carter [continuing]. Time as you want.
Mr. Bilirakis. Thank you. That hurt, but I--it pained me to
say it, but----
Mr. Carter. Well----
Mr. Bilirakis [continuing]. I had to say it.
Mrs. Cammack. I am going to sit here the whole time.
[Laughter.]
Mr. Carter. Thank you all for being here. We are obviously
very concerned. And thank you, Mr. Chairman, for this hearing
and for your interest in what I consider to be very, very
important--look, obviously, I love the University of Georgia. I
graduated from there in 1980. We won the national championship
that year. We have won back to back. It--you know, I am one of
those, just like you, we all love college athletics.
That is why we are so concerned about this, because we
don't want to see it ruined. We get it. We understand that--it
was even discussed back when I was in school way back then
about athletes being compensated. And I get it, and I
understand that, but we want it to be done in the right way.
And certainly I know during this hearing we have had some
great questions, and they brought up the California's College
Athlete Protection Act, and I know that that potentially--and,
full disclosure, I have had the opportunity to discuss, you
know, the situation with some of the--some of my friends at the
University of Georgia in administration.
And that is one thing that they are really concerned about,
is if something like this were to go to into--into effect, the
impact that it would have on some of the other sports. They
offer--we offer 21 sports at the University of Georgia, and
we--and they are all very important to our school, and we want
to make sure that they continue on.
Dr. Abdullah, can you tell me if your State--if Virginia,
where I have grandbabies, by the way, if Virginia followed the
California bill, what do you think the impact would be on those
other athletic programs? And, listen, they live in
Charlottesville, and they go to UVA athletics all the time and
enjoy it.
Dr. Abdullah. If I am being honest, sir, I don't--I don't
entirely know, because those--the impact of that level of
revenue sharing is predominantly known by the Power Five
schools, the larger schools. At Virginia State University, we
are--we are all student-fee driven, and athletics is an
extracurricular activity.
And if your grandbabies would love to come to Virginia
State, we would gladly recruit them to VSU
Mr. Carter. Thank you.
Ms. Mudge, what about you? Do you have any comment on that?
Ms. Mudge. Yes. I think I am just very grateful for the
experience that I have had the past 4 years. And I am not an
expert on everything that is happening outside of, you know, my
little square of Tallahassee, but hearing about possible
revenue-sharing models that could take funds and divert funds
away from Olympic sports over to football, men's basketball, to
male sports, would be severely detrimental to Olympic sports.
And I just couldn't imagine what my life would be without
Florida State softball the past 4 years and the relationships I
have made, and the access to education that I have been able to
build, and just everything that I have been able to do the past
4 years. So----
Mr. Carter. That is why this is so very important to us.
Thank you for that testimony. That is spot on. I mean, it----
Ms. Mudge. Thank you.
Mr. Carter [continuing]. Changed your life, right?
Ms. Mudge. Yes. It changed my life. I wouldn't be who I am
today without Florida State.
Mr. Carter. Absolutely. Thank you for that.
Mr. Burton, I am sorry you had to play at the University of
Florida, but--and----
Mr. Bilirakis. I object to that.
[Laughter.]
Mr. Carter. Seriously, I want to follow up on what my good
friend from North Dakota discussed about the transfer portal
and--because that is, you know, that is a concern, too. I mean,
wow. It is--so much has changed, and, you know, change is OK,
but we have just got to make sure we are not--we are not
hurting it.
And that is one thing--I am very concerned about reports,
about the way the transfer rule changes coincided with the
release of the NCAA NIL policy. I mean, what--how do you feel
about that?
Mr. Burton. Oh, I am not familiar with the policy. What is
the policy? Like what----
Mr. Carter. Well, it led to an environment where, you know,
I mean, are they--are they trying--is it pay-for-play? I mean,
that is what I keep hearing.
Mr. Burton. Yes.
Mr. Carter. I don't know. I am just asking.
Mr. Burton. Well, I mean, I think the transfer portal and
NIL are completely separate conversations. But somehow they are
getting blended now, just because there is--they are both
possible. Back then, obviously they weren't possible.
You know, I am--I am of the understanding that money is
being thrown at recruits, high school and transfer portal in a
way, and that is why I think we need to have legislation and
laws on what is available to be used for transfer portal and
what is not, and just clear boundaries I think is kind of what
everybody is asking for right now.
Mr. Carter. Good. Good. Well, again, obviously, I love a
lot--I love college athletics. Let me tell you, I was at the
University of Georgia. I got to see John McEnroe play John
Sadri in tennis. What a--I still remember it. Sadri had 13
aces, and McEnroe still beat him two and two, beat him like a
drum.
And I don't want to see that ruined. I don't want to see it
go away. It means so much to so many of us. Thank you all, and
thank you again for----
Mr. Bilirakis. Buddy, I will give you some more time if you
want it. We are waiting for Pfluger.
Mr. Carter. Yes. I will take more time----
Mr. Bilirakis. All right. Go ahead.
Mr. Carter [continuing]. What else----
Mr. Bilirakis. Go ahead.
Mr. Carter [continuing]. I witnessed in college.
Mr. Bilirakis. Don't say anything against the Gators
anymore.
Mr. Carter. No, I am not. I am not.
Let me see what I have got. He is here now, so I will--I
will yield back.
Mr. Bilirakis. The gentleman yields back.
Mr. Carter. But one--one last thing.
Mr. Bilirakis. OK. Go ahead.
Mr. Carter. One last thing: Go Dawgs.
Mr. Bilirakis. All right. Very good.
All right. Now I will recognize the gentleman from Texas,
Mr. Pfluger, for 5 minutes.
Mr. Pfluger. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I appreciate it. I
know some of us have popped in and out a little bit, but we
appreciate all of you being here.
And I think talking about some of these important issues, I
was a student-athlete at the Air Force Academy, and obviously
it brings a little bit different, you know, considerations to
it.
But I will start with Ms. Heppel. As commissioner of the
Patriot League, you know, talk to me about what the service
academy community is looking at when it comes to the guardrails
that may be in place, and how it differs from maybe other
institutions.
Ms. Heppel. Thank you. You know, in the conversations with
the folks at Army and Navy, I think, you know, there is an
understanding as--that the Federal employee regulations are
very different. I think they would appreciate the opportunities
for their student-athletes that are similar to the
opportunities that exist outside the service academies.
On the other hand, young people that choose to attend one
of the service academies are looking for a very different type
of collegiate experience and have different goals, as you know.
So it is--it is a unique perspective, very appreciative of what
they bring to the table in the Patriot League and their
perspective.
Mr. Pfluger. Well, thank you for that, and I think that is
right. You know, Mr. Chun, I will go to you. In part of your
testimony, it was interesting--and I am interested to hear your
thoughts on the revenue sharing, and, you know, using
California's model, that would do to Ms. Mudge and what that
would do to Olympic sports if we had the revenue sharing.
And I think traditionally--correct me if I am wrong--but
most of the revenue is going to come from football and men's
and women's basketball, and that is kind of top three. So what
does it do to the Olympic sports and women's sports in
particular?
Mr. Chun. Well, I will answer that from two different
angles. One, it would be what I had spoke about before. It is
the--it is the flaw in our model that two sports do drive on
most campuses--some one--the revenue to run an athletic
program, and are also governed by equity in Title IX.
So it is--so it provides opportunities for broad-based
programming. Also, as a member of the Pac-12, obviously, we are
paying attention to what is going on in California, but it is
another example of another patchwork State law that is going to
impact how we--how we manage college athletics not only on the
west coast and our conference, but it will impact other
institutions in the NCAA.
Mr. Pfluger. Ms. Mudge, your thoughts on that.
Ms. Mudge. Yes. Just like I stated earlier, I am grateful.
Florida State has been the best 4 years of my life. And just
with the revenue-sharing model in California, it is very scary
to think that athletes like me, future college athletes like
me, won't get the experience if that model is--if that model
comes into play.
And I know that the funds come mainly from football and
men's basketball, but I wouldn't trade my experience for
anything. And I am grateful for the 4 years that I have gotten,
and just all of the relationships I have made, everything that
I have learned academically, athletically, as a person,
everything that I have been able to learn in my 4 years, I
wouldn't have learned if I didn't come in as a college athlete.
And so that opportunity has been one of the best opportunities
of my life.
Mr. Pfluger. Thank you.
Mr. Burton?
Mr. Burton. Yes. I share the same thoughts from the
employment standpoint, though I do think Dr. Stahl does bring
up an interesting point in the sense of, you know, college
basketball, March Madness, players playing, like I think there
might be a way to make that work from the revenue-sharing
standpoint, but I don't think it is an employment deal.
You know, I think it may be like there is some talk--I
think it was like Division II or Division III tournament where
they gave money to collectives to pay players for NILs. So, I
mean, maybe that might work. I don't know the answer to that,
but I am 100 percent against employment to universities, yes.
Mr. Pfluger. What--and anybody can answer this. What is the
most--I use the term closest alligator to the canoe--I mean,
what is the biggest threat we face right now, if we don't do
something at the Federal level? And I will kind of look at Mr.
Chun and Ms. Heppel. I mean, what--if we don't do something
now, what is the biggest threat and what will happen?
Mr. Chun. I go to what Mr. Burton said. It is about the
employment model.
Mr. Pfluger. OK.
Mr. Chun. And the impact that will have specifically on
five leagues or a subset of schools in those five leagues that
ultimately, if you look at where the revenue is generated from,
ultimately from the entire enterprise of 500,000 student-
athletes, 1,200 institutions.
So what--I guess what alarms me is if that path--if the
road took us down that path, I don't know how Division II,
Division III, and most of Division I exists anymore.
Mr. Pfluger. Yes.
Ms. Heppel. I echo that. I--you know, overseeing a league
where athletics does not generate revenue, revenue sharing is
probably not viable, but it does--the concern is around opening
the door toward the consideration of student-athletes as
employees. That would be detrimental.
Mr. Pfluger. Thank you. I know my time is expiring. Do you
think NIL is a good thing for the Congressional baseball game?
[Laughter.]
Mr. Pfluger. OK. Good. I like that. I am going to have to
consider that. We do play one game a year.
Mr. Chairman, I yield back.
Mr. Bilirakis. All right. On that note, I will tell you
that this was an excellent hearing. The testimony was
outstanding, and the questions and the answers, it was so
productive, and we appreciate all of you. I really appreciate
it very much.
Now, I want to give our ranking member an opportunity to
make a statement or her observations, what have you, with
regard to the hearing. We would appreciate hearing from you.
Ms. Schakowsky. Well, once again, I do agree with my
chairman that this has been a really excellent hearing, and I
really appreciate all of the witnesses.
I think a lot of questions still remain on how are we going
to best serve our student-athletes, and I look forward to this
being just really the beginning of that conversation that will
end in some ways that we do better.
So I yield back. Thank you.
Mr. Bilirakis. Thank you. And, again, we do have a lot of
questions, and we will submit them for the record. But I think
we made a great deal of progress today.
Thank you very much. I remind Members that they have 10
business days to submit questions for the record. And I ask the
witnesses to respond to these questions promptly.
I ask unanimous consent to insert in the record the
documents included on the staff hearing documents list.
So, without objection, this committee--again, without
objection, that will be the order, and we are adjourned.
Thank you very much for all you have done, and I thank the
audience as well.
[Whereupon, at 1:17 p.m., the subcommittee was adjourned.]
[Material submitted for inclusion in the record follows:]
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