[House Hearing, 118 Congress]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]


TAKING THE BUZZER BEATER TO THE BANK: PROTECTING COLLEGE ATHLETES' NIL 
                           DEALMAKING RIGHTS

=======================================================================

                                HEARING

                               BEFORE THE

             SUBCOMMITTEE ON INNOVATION, DATA, AND COMMERCE

                                 OF THE

                    COMMITTEE ON ENERGY AND COMMERCE
                        HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

                    ONE HUNDRED EIGHTEENTH CONGRESS

                             FIRST SESSION
                               __________

                             MARCH 29, 2023
                               __________

                           Serial No. 118-18
                           
                  [GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]                           


     Published for the use of the Committee on Energy and Commerce

                   govinfo.gov/committee/house-energy
                        energycommerce.house.gov
                        
                               __________

                    U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE
                    
54-500 PDF                 WASHINGTON : 2024   


                    COMMITTEE ON ENERGY AND COMMERCE

                   CATHY McMORRIS RODGERS, Washington
                                  Chair
MICHAEL C. BURGESS, Texas            FRANK PALLONE, Jr., New Jersey
ROBERT E. LATTA, Ohio                  Ranking Member
BRETT GUTHRIE, Kentucky              ANNA G. ESHOO, California
H. MORGAN GRIFFITH, Virginia         DIANA DeGETTE, Colorado
GUS M. BILIRAKIS, Florida            JAN SCHAKOWSKY, Illinois
BILL JOHNSON, Ohio                   DORIS O. MATSUI, California
LARRY BUCSHON, Indiana               KATHY CASTOR, Florida
RICHARD HUDSON, North Carolina       JOHN P. SARBANES, Maryland
TIM WALBERG, Michigan                PAUL TONKO, New York
EARL L. ``BUDDY'' CARTER, Georgia    YVETTE D. CLARKE, New York
JEFF DUNCAN, South Carolina          TONY CARDENAS, California
GARY J. PALMER, Alabama              RAUL RUIZ, California
NEAL P. DUNN, Florida                SCOTT H. PETERS, California
JOHN R. CURTIS, Utah                 DEBBIE DINGELL, Michigan
DEBBBIE LESKO, Arizona               MARC A. VEASEY, Texas
GREG PENCE, Indiana                  ANN M. KUSTER, New Hampshire
DAN CRENSHAW, Texas                  ROBIN L. KELLY, Illinois
JOHN JOYCE, Pennsylvania             NANETTE DIAZ BARRAGAN, California
KELLY ARMSTRONG, North Dakota, Vice  LISA BLUNT ROCHESTER, Delaware
    Chair                            DARREN SOTO, Florida
RANDY K. WEBER, Sr., Texas           ANGIE CRAIG, Minnesota
RICK W. ALLEN, Georgia               KIM SCHRIER, Washington
TROY BALDERSON, Ohio                 LORI TRAHAN, Massachusetts
RUSS FULCHER, Idaho                  LIZZIE FLETCHER, Texas
AUGUST PFLUGER, Texas
DIANA HARSHBARGER, Tennessee
MARIANNETTE MILLER-MEEKS, Iowa
KAT CAMMACK, Florida
JAY OBERNOLTE, California
                                 ------                                

                           Professional Staff

                      NATE HODSON, Staff Director
                   SARAH BURKE, Deputy Staff Director
               TIFFANY GUARASCIO, Minority Staff Director
             Subcommittee on Innovation, Data, and Commerce

                       GUS M. BILIRAKIS, Florida
                                 Chairman
LARRY BUCSHON, Indiana               JAN SCHAKOWSKY, Illinois
TIM WALBERG, Michigan, Vice Chair      Ranking Member
JEFF DUNCAN, South Carolina          KATHY CASTOR, Florida
NEAL P. DUNN, Florida                DEBBIE DINGELL, Michigan
DEBBIE LESKO, Arizona                ROBIN L. KELLY, Illinois
GREG PENCE, Indiana                  LISA BLUNT ROCHESTER, Delaware
KELLY ARMSTRONG, North Dakota        DARREN SOTO, Florida
RICK W. ALLEN, Georgia               LORI TRAHAN, Massachusetts
RUSS FULCHER, Idaho                  YVETTE D. CLARKE, New York
DIANA HARSHBARGER, Tennessee         FRANK PALLONE, Jr., New Jersey (ex 
KAT CAMMACK, Florida                     officio)
CATHY McMORRIS RODGERS, Washington 
    (ex officio)
                             C O N T E N T S

                              ----------                              
                                                                   Page
Hon. Gus M. Bilirakis, a Representative in Congress from the 
  State of Florida, opening statement............................     1
    Prepared statement...........................................     4
Hon. Jan Schakowsky, a Representative in Congress from the State 
  of Illinois, opening statement.................................     6
    Prepared statement...........................................     8
Hon. Cathy McMorris Rodgers, a Representative in Congress from 
  the State of Washington, opening statement.....................    10
    Prepared statement...........................................    12
Hon. Frank Pallone, Jr., a Representative in Congress from the 
  State of New Jersey, opening statement.........................    14
    Prepared statement...........................................    16
Hon. Lori Trahan, a Representative in Congress from the 
  Commonwealth of Massachusetts, opening statement...............    17
    Prepared statement...........................................    18

                               Witnesses

Jennifer Heppel, Commissioner, Patriot League....................    19
    Prepared statement...........................................    21
    Answers to submitted questions...............................   141
Makola M. Abdullah, Ph.D., President, Virginia State University..    26
    Prepared statement...........................................    28
    Answers to submitted questions...............................   146
Trey Burton, Former National Football League player..............   f34
    Prepared statement...........................................    36
    Answers to submitted questions...............................   148
Kaley Mudge, Student Athlete, Florida State University...........    39
    Prepared statement...........................................    41
    Answers to submitted questions...............................   150
Pat Chun, Director of Athletics, Washington State University.....    43
    Prepared statement...........................................    45
    Answers to submitted questions...............................   153
Jason Stahl, Ph.D., Executive Director and Founder, College 
  Football Players Association...................................    53
    Prepared statement...........................................    55
    Answers to submitted questions...............................   157

                           Submitted Material

Inclusion of the following was approved by unanimous consent.
Letter of March 27, 2023, from Kim Pate, Vice President for 
  Athletics, Lenoir-Rhyne University, to Subcommittee Members....   103
Statement of Trinity Thomas, Gymnast and Health Education & 
  Behavior Student, University of Florida, March 29, 2023........   106
Letter of March 28, 2023, from Steve Murray, Commissioner, 
  Pennsylvania State Athletic Conference, to Subcommittee Members   109
Statement of DeWayne Carter, Duke Football, et al., March 28, 
  2023...........................................................   111
Letter of March 28, 2023, from Matt Wilson, Commissioner, Gulf 
  South Conference, to Subcommittee Members......................   113
Letter of March 28, 2023, from Michael A. Driscoll, President, 
  Indiana University of Pennsylvania, to Subcommittee Members....   115
Letter of March 28, 2023, from Carrie Michaels, Senior Associate 
  Director of Athletics, Shippensburg University, to Subcommittee 
  Members........................................................   117
Letter of March 28, 2023, from Jere W. Morehead, President, 
  University of Georgia, March 28, 2023, to Subcommittee Members.   119
Letter of March 28, 2023, from Dr. Dean L. Bresciani, 
  Distinguished Professor and Former President, North Dakota 
  State University, to Mr. Bilirakis, et al......................   122
Letter of March 28, 2023, from Jeffrey Docking, Ph.D., President, 
  Adrian College, to Mr. Bilirakis, et al........................   125
Letter of March 27, 2023, from Dr. Sandra Woodley, President, 
  University of Texas Permian Basin, to Mr. Bilirakis, et al.....   128
Letter of March 28, 2023, from Greg Christopher, Vice President 
  for Administration and Director of Athletics, Xavier 
  University, to Subcommittee Members............................   131
Letter of March 28, 2023, from Jack Langan, Vice Chair, Division 
  III National SAAC, NCAA, to Subcommittee Members...............   133
Commentary of March 21, 2023, ``Even the Supreme Court Can't Save 
  the N.C.A.A. From Itself,'' by Bomani Jones, New York Times....   135
Letter of March 29, 2023, from Representatives Colin Z. Allred, 
  August Pfluger, and Emanuel Cleaver II, to Mr. Bilirakis, et 
  al.............................................................   137
Commentary of July 1, 2021, ``At Notre Dame, We Believe `Student' 
  Should Come First in `Student-Athlete,''' by John I. Jenkins, 
  New York Times.................................................   139

 
TAKING THE BUZZER BEATER TO THE BANK: PROTECTING COLLEGE ATHLETES' NIL 
                           DEALMAKING RIGHTS

                              ----------                              


                       WEDNESDAY, MARCH 29, 2023

                  House of Representatives,
    Subcommittee on Innovation, Data, and Commerce,
                          Committee on Energy and Commerce,
                                                    Washington, DC.
    The subcommittee met, pursuant to call, at 10:30 a.m., in 
room 2322, Rayburn House Office Building, Hon. Gus M. Bilirakis 
(chairman of the subcommittee) presiding.
    Members present: Representatives Bilirakis, Bucshon, 
Walberg, Duncan, Dunn, Lesko, Pence, Allen, Fulcher, 
Harshbarger, Cammack, Rodgers (ex officio), Schakowsky 
(subcommittee ranking member), Castor, Blunt Rochester, Soto, 
Trahan, Clarke, and Pallone (ex officio).
    Also present: Carter, Pfluger, and Cardenas.
    Staff present: Kate Arey, Content Manager and Digital 
Assistant; Michael Cameron, Professional Staff Member, 
Innovation, Data, and Commerce; Jessica Herron, Clerk, 
Innovation, Data, and Commerce; Sean Kelly, Press Secretary; 
Peter Kielty, General Counsel; Chris Krepich, Press Secretary; 
Tim Kurth, Chief Counsel, Innovation, Data, and Commerce; 
Brannon Rains, Professional Staff Member, Innovation, Data, and 
Commerce; Lacey Strahm, Fellow, Innovation, Data, and Commerce; 
Michael Taggart, Policy Director; Teddy Tanzer, Senior Counsel, 
Innovation, Data, and Commerce; Hannah Anton, Minority Staff 
Assistant; Ian Barlow, Minority FTC Detailee; Waverly Gordon, 
Minority Deputy Staff Director and General Counsel; Daniel 
Greene, Minority Professional Staff Member; Tiffany Guarascio, 
Minority Staff Director; Lisa Hone, Minority Chief Counsel, 
Innovation, Data, and Commerce; Mackenzie Kuhl, Minority 
Digital Manager; Joe Orlando, Minority Senior Policy Analyst; 
and C.J. Young, Minority Deputy Communications Director.
    Mr. Bilirakis. Good morning, everyone. The subcommittee 
will come to order.
    The Chair recognizes himself for an opening statement.

OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. GUS M. BILIRAKIS, A REPRESENTATIVE IN 
               CONGRESS FROM THE STATE OF FLORIDA

    Again, good morning, everyone. I am pleased to hold this 
subcommittee hearing today to discuss an important topic that 
has been the subject of much debate in recent years: name, 
image, and likeness, or NIL, in college sports.
    This debate about whether student-athletes should get NIL 
compensation has already been settled by the courts, leaving 
Congress to figure out how to navigate this new landscape. In 
the meantime, many have already taken advantage of these new 
opportunities.
    During college basketball's busiest time of the year, 
athletes have seized the moment on the court and rode their 
success all the way to the bank. Since the start of March 
Madness, more than 40 deals have been signed with men's and 
women's basketball players. Ahead of the Final Four matchups 
this weekend, one thing is clear: More college athletes will 
ink additional NIL deals.
    The main question before us today is how Congress should 
regulate this new economic frontier to ensure that NIL deals 
are transparent and fair and that they do not compromise the 
integrity of college sports. We must avert the potential 
pitfalls that could come with NIL compensation rights, such as 
becoming recruiting inducements or pay-for-play schemes.
    We also must consider how NIL regulation would affect 
capital distribution in the college sports ecosystem, 
particularly the effects this will have on smaller college 
athletic programs. I want to emphasize that.
    Just last week we heard the unfortunate news that St. 
Francis College in New York made a decision to eliminate its 
entire athletics program, citing residual financial 
implications from COVID-19 pandemic and operating expenses. I 
worry that the financial stress of more mandates will only 
compound such constraints on resources.
    If that is not enough, we are already seeing charitable 
dollars being siphoned away from the athletic departments and 
conferences into third-party NIL collectives. Combine that with 
a requirement for schools to classify their athletes as 
employees--I know that there is a pending proposal in the State 
of New York--we will certainly see more heartbreaking decisions 
made, particularly for sports that don't generate revenue. And 
we have got to preserve those sports, ladies and gentlemen, and 
I worry about the implications of what this would do to Olympic 
sports as well.
    It is vital that we center today's discussion on the 
foundational principle that creating and maintaining an equal 
playing field for all college athletes is paramount. If you are 
advocating for student-athletes, which all of us are here 
today, your priority should be that they remain student-
athletes.
    I am glad to see a diverse set of perspectives on our 
witness panel today, each sharing a unique view of the college 
NIL landscape. Thank you all for making the time to travel 
before us today, again, being here, and share your insights 
into this topic with us.
    I am particularly proud to see my home State will be 
represented on today's panel. I wonder how that happened? Thank 
you, Kaley. I want to thank Kaley for making the time to come 
share your story with us amidst the demands of being in season. 
I wish you luck at your games, of course, this weekend.
    And it always warms my heart to see my alma mater 
represented. Thank you, Trey, Mr. Trey Burton, for being here. 
And I think everyone knows by now that I bleed orange and blue. 
So, go Gators.
    [Laughter.]
    Mr. Bilirakis. As my colleagues can see by the geographic 
makeup of this panel, NIL affects athletes and institutions in 
all States. It is critical that we establish a Federal 
preemptive standard for NIL to bring clarity and consistency to 
this rapidly evolving space.
    The lack of uniformity across different States and 
institutions has created confusion and uncertainty, and a 
Federal standard is needed so all athletes are playing by the 
same rules. In short, we must strike a delicate balance between 
the rights of college athletes to profit from their own NIL 
while keeping the amateur status for all college athletes.
    With that, with thoughtful and balanced legislation, we can 
create a system that is fair, transparent, and sustainable for 
all. Today's hearing is one step in that process. We can get 
this done if we work together, folks.
    Thank you all for your attention, and I look forward to a 
productive discussion on this very important topic.
    OK. And now I yield.
    [The prepared statement of Mr. Bilirakis follows:]

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    I will recognize the gentlelady from Illinois, Ms. 
Schakowsky, for 5 minutes for her opening statement. She is our 
ranking member, and we have worked so well together in the 
past. So I yield to--I give you 5 minutes, Representative 
Schakowsky, please.

 OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. JAN SCHAKOWSKY, A REPRESENTATIVE IN 
              CONGRESS FROM THE STATE OF ILLINOIS

    Ms. Schakowsky. Thank you so much, Mr. Chairman, for your 
continued collaboration, and I want to thank the witnesses for 
being here today.
    Throughout March, fans gathered to cheer for their 
basketball teams, and I have to tell you that I was thrilled 
that this year for the first time ever both Illinois Big Ten 
teams were in the NCAA men's basketball tournament. Yay. We 
didn't get all the way, but----
    So, and college sports brings joy to Americans in every 
State, in every congressional district, and certainly also to 
current and former athletes. I want to tip my hat to our 
colleague, Representative Trahan, who is one of those, and I am 
sure there are others among our--among our Members. And she--
that was volleyball, by the way. And so--but college sports 
have also generated enormous wealth, but that wealth has not 
been--has not been uniformly distributed among all who need to 
be.
    For example, let me say those most responsible for the 
creation of that wealth--the players--have yet to receive their 
fair share of the pie. We have seen athletes deprived of the 
basic--the basic needs that they have, and we need to do 
something about it.
    For anyone who doubts--who doubts me, I look back to 2015, 
when Northwestern football players--and I am proud to represent 
them--tried to--began an effort to unionize. I supported that. 
Northwestern employed the same anti-union tactics that we have 
seen among giant corporations like Starbucks and Amazon.
    And it is essential that college athletes not only have the 
right to benefit from their name and image and likeness, but 
that they can--that they can make sure that they get the 
benefits in other ways as well.
    For example, under NCAA rules, athletes are required to 
have basic health insurance. However, schools are not required 
to provide the health insurance. Unfortunately, these--the two 
health insurance options offered by the NCAA provide 
insufficient coverage and is also time-limited, yet for some 
athletes, injuries last sometimes even a lifetime, but 
certainly longer than the insurance covers.
    For years Congress has been told, well, just let them 
regulate themselves--talking about the NCAA and others--do it 
themselves. But only after a Supreme Court ruling would we 
finally see the passage of some legislation, State laws in 
various States, have we--did the NCAA begin to allow some 
college athletes to make money from their name, image, and 
likeness.
    However, huge--let me just see--am I still there? No, I 
guess--oh, wait, I am still there. OK.
    However, huge disparities in--still exist between athletes 
in various colleges. So more--absolutely more needs to be done, 
and I really look forward to the debate that we are going to 
have in this committee to make sure how we are going to address 
these issues.
    I think the time has come for real change. I want to say 
that I have read all of your testimony, and I just wanted to 
tell you that I have to leave for a brief moment to go to the 
Budget Committee, where I am going to be asking questions, and 
then I am going to come back and hear the rest of it. But thank 
you so much to our witnesses.
    And with that, I yield back, Mr. Chairman.
    [The prepared statement of Ms. Schakowsky follows:]

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    Mr. Bilirakis. Thank you. Appreciate it. Thank you, Ranking 
Member.
    I do want to say that the testimony is excellent, and I had 
an opportunity to read it as well. So we appreciate that very 
much.
    I now recognize our chairperson of the full committee, Mrs. 
Rodgers, for her 5 minutes for her opening statement. You are 
recognized.

      OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. CATHY McMORRIS RODGERS, A 
    REPRESENTATIVE IN CONGRESS FROM THE STATE OF WASHINGTON

    Mrs. Rodgers. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And thank you for 
your dedication to the issue of name, likeness--name, image, 
likeness. I know this. Name, image, likeness. I know it is 
close to your heart to ensure college athletes have every 
chance to succeed professionally and academically.
    We are fortunate to have a few former college athletes on 
this committee, and I know it is an issue that is close to 
their hearts as well.
    I would also like to thank Mr. Pat Chun from Washington 
State University, the athletic director for Washington State 
University, who is testifying today. Go Cougs. He has been a 
leader on this issue, his work at WSU and various roles with 
the NCAA. Just appreciate your insights.
    The Supreme Court blew the whistle on the NCAA in 2021 as 
it unanimously ruled it can no longer prohibit college athletes 
from receiving compensation for their NIL. The ruling could not 
have been clearer. The NCAA was overly restrictive in its 
prohibition of athletes profiting from their NIL. 
Unfortunately, the Supreme Court's ruling did not offer clear 
rules of the road.
    Instead, we have seen a rollercoaster of State activity as 
States compete to have the most advantageous laws for their 
respective schools. For example, Alabama enacted an NIL law to 
provide guardrails and quickly had to repeal it within a year 
over concerns more restrictive laws could put them in a 
competitive disadvantage in recruiting versus other States.
    Not unlike other challenging issues before this committee, 
the patchwork of State laws is confusing for athletes, schools, 
and conferences alike. It is unreasonable to expect student-
athletes to balance their studies with navigating a maze of 
complex and conflicting laws. They are put in a potentially 
devastating position of running afoul of rules they would need 
a law firm to provide counsel on.
    Without a clear and consistent set of rules in place, the 
entire ecosystem is disrupted and important elements of the 
educational experience are decimated. Nonrevenue-generating 
sports that help athletes get into and through a college degree 
program are being hurt. Advances thanks to Title IX will be 
reversed if there aren't consistent rules to benefit women's 
sports.
    As Chairman Bilirakis shared, small schools' athletic 
programs will be eliminated, as they are unable to compete in 
such a complex system of rules and incentives.
    While some sports in the highest level are profitable, most 
student-athletes compete in sports that would not have a good 
return on investment. We cannot allow an outcome where there 
are thousands of college athletes--where they lose their 
opportunity to compete in the sports they love.
    The current NIL chaos means student-athletes are left to 
fend for themselves, and those at the top of their game must 
figure out how to maneuver through a multiple of agents, 
collectives, and high-dollar contract offers, all while 
maintaining their academic and athletic commitments. The 
pressure placed on these student-athletes is immense and raises 
important questions on them being able to receive counseling 
for financial planning and mental well-being.
    Clear protections in education can prevent many unfortunate 
examples of college athletes being exploited. In resolving 
these challenges, we must not ruin what makes college athletics 
so special.
    NIL is long overdue. It means a supplemental income for 
student-athletes across the country. The recent changes in NCAA 
NIL policy recognize what has always been true. These college--
these athletes are more--these collegiate athletes are more 
than just athletes. They are small business owners, podcasters, 
and entrepreneurs.
    We must give them clear guidelines for how they explore and 
nurture these talents. We must also establish clear national 
rules so amateur athletes have every chance to succeed in life 
and sports. Every one of us takes great pride in the 
universities and colleges in our home States. We all want our 
student-athletes to be successful, both on and off the field.
    Again, thank you to the witnesses for appearing before us 
today, as your input will help guide us in legislating a set of 
rules that works for everyone.
    I yield back.
    [The prepared statement of Mrs. Rodgers follows:]

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    Mr. Bilirakis. Thank you, Madam Chair. appreciate it very 
much.
    And before I recognize the ranking member of the full 
committee, Mr. Pallone, I would like to ask him a question. 
Sir, Eagles or Giants?
    [Laughter.]
    Mr. Pallone. Giants, but I actually like both.
    Mr. Bilirakis. OK. That is a politician there.
    Mr. Pallone. Well, I am in central Jersey, so, you know, we 
have people from----
    Mr. Bilirakis. Oh, OK. Well----
    Mr. Pallone [continuing]. For both teams.
    Mr. Bilirakis. I am going to tell you that, as you know, 
Mr. Burton is responsible for the Philly Special. And he is an 
Eagles fan, so be nice to him.
    Mr. Pallone. I will.
    Mr. Bilirakis. All right. I think you are always nice. 
Thank you. You are a great friend. All right. I want to 
recognize you for 5 minutes, sir, for your opening statement.

OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. FRANK PALLONE, Jr., A REPRESENTATIVE 
            IN CONGRESS FROM THE STATE OF NEW JERSEY

    Mr. Pallone. Thank you. And, Mr. Chairman, I did want to 
recognize, because I see him in the audience, former 
Congressman Tom McMillen, who served on this committee when I 
started, and he of course was a great basketball player and 
when he was here championed the concerns of college athletes. 
So I am sure that is why he is here today. Thank you, Tom.
    But I also wanted to say that I do think this is an 
important hearing. The devotion, sacrifice, and hard work of 
collegiate athletes helps make college sports one of the most 
popular and lucrative brands of sports entertainment in the 
country. And they play packed stadiums, their performances 
fuels viewership, their talents and charisma drive merchandise 
sales, and their successes increase revenue and enrollment.
    And college athletes deserve a system that protects their 
interests and well-being while preserving the educational 
mission of college sports. So that is why I am pleased that the 
National Collegiate Athletic Association has finally been 
forced to allow college athletes to monetize their name, image, 
and likeness, just like any other students on campus or coach 
in the lockout room--locker room. And while name, image, and 
likeness reform is a start, any future actions by Congress to 
legislate in this space must also address some of the broader, 
equally pressing issues affecting college athletes today, 
issues like health and safety, players' rights to organize, 
compensation, and gender equity.
    We have to ensure that players' welfare is the top priority 
for the athletic programs at colleges and universities across 
the country, regardless of division, conference, or sport, and 
that means every player must receive proper care for sports-
related medical issues, even when that care comes after leaving 
college.
    It means college athletes' First Amendment rights to 
organize must be respected and protected, and that players must 
be able to meaningfully negotiate to ensure their voices are 
heard. And it also means that we must be mindful of protecting 
and building on the benefits Title IX has brought to women's 
college sports.
    So I thank Chairs Rodgers and Bilirakis for their 
willingness to work in a bipartisan manner and assure all 
perspectives are represented here today. These athletes deserve 
a system that puts players' welfare first, not the NCAA's 
bottom line. I look forward to hearing from the panel on how we 
in Congress can achieve that goal for collegiate athletes.
    But I am going to yield the remainder of my time to 
Congresswoman Trahan, because she knows a lot more about these 
issues than I do as a former Division I female athlete, the 
only former Division I female athlete serving in Congress.
    [The prepared statement of Mr. Pallone follows:]

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  OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. LORI TRAHAN, A REPRESENTATIVE IN 
        CONGRESS FROM THE COMMONWEALTH OF MASSACHUSETTS

    Mrs. Trahan. Well, I thank the ranking member for yielding. 
Like many of our colleagues on the committee, I believe that 
Congress can and must act to create a level playing field for 
college athletics. We will no doubt hear from our witnesses 
today that the current patchwork of State laws is difficult for 
colleges and conferences to navigate. But as a former college 
athlete myself, I am more concerned with how that same 
patchwork affects athletes.
    When I was being recruited to play volleyball, I had to 
navigate that process alone. You know, my parents didn't get a 
scholarship to college. In fact, many first-generation 
Americans like my dad didn't have a choice but to start working 
right after high school. They didn't--they did their best to 
help me, but the burden of navigating different scholarship 
offers and weighing the pros and cons of one school against 
another was stressful and at times daunting.
    That was difficult enough 30 years ago without having to 
parse through the different State laws to determine if going to 
a school in New Mexico might be better from an NIL perspective 
than staying in my home State of Massachusetts. But that is the 
challenge that athletes are facing today. Make no mistake, the 
system of college athletics is better than it was 2 years ago, 
but there are emerging challenges, including inequity and 
collusion among collectives, predatory contracts, and Title IX 
loopholes that we should address.
    I would urge my colleagues that when we move the ball 
forward on this issue we do so in a way that prioritize the 
rights of athletes who have long been left out of discussions 
about the future of college athletics. There should not be a 
desire to return to the status quo that didn't work for so many 
college athletes.
    We can't put that genie back in the bottle, as they say, 
but we can work together to advance legislation that creates a 
level playing field, strengthens the rights of athletes, and 
preserves college athletics for generations to come.
    I want to thank the Chair and ranking member for hosting 
today's hearing and the panel of witnesses for their testimony, 
and I yield back.
    [The prepared statement of Ms. Trahan follows:]

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    Mr. Bilirakis. Thank you so very much. So we have now 
concluded with Member opening statements. The Chair reminds 
Members that, pursuant to the committee rules, all Members' 
opening statements will be part of the record.
    So our first witness is Jennifer Heppel, the commissioner 
of the Patriot League.
    So you are recognized. Thank you so very much for being 
here. You are recognized for 5 minutes.

 STATEMENTS OF JENNIFER HEPPEL, COMMISSIONER, PATRIOT LEAGUE; 
     MAKOLA M. ABDULLAH, Ph.D., PRESIDENT, VIRGINIA STATE 
   UNIVERSITY; TREY BURTON, FORMER NATIONAL FOOTBALL LEAGUE 
PLAYER; KALEY MUDGE, STUDENT-ATHLETE, FLORIDA STATE UNIVERSITY; 
 PAT CHUN, DIRECTOR OF ATHLETICS, WASHINGTON STATE UNIVERSITY; 
   AND JASON STAHL, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR AND FOUNDER, COLLEGE 
                  FOOTBALL PLAYERS ASSOCIATION

                  STATEMENT OF JENNIFER HEPPEL

    Ms. Heppel. Thank you. Thank you, Chairman Bilirakis and 
Ranking Member Schakowsky and all the members of the 
subcommittee. It is a great opportunity to be here today.
    My name is Jennifer Heppel, commissioner of the Patriot 
League, which is one of 32 Division I conferences within the 
NCAA structure. I have been fortunate to spend my entire 
career--30 years so far, we will see how today goes--no, 30 
years so far in college athletics at the national, 
institutional, and conference levels.
    I was a women's ice hockey student-athlete in college, and 
that experience laid the foundation for my professional growth.
    While the title of this hearing is specific to NIL, I have 
a sense we might touch on some other issues. So let me share 
some perspective from the Patriot League.
    There are over 8,000 student-athletes competing on over 240 
teams across the league. Collectively, that is 20 percent of 
our undergraduate student population. The Patriot League 
believes that participation in athletics is an important 
component of a well-rounded education.
    The integrated student-athlete experience, the academic and 
personal growth of student-athletes, is primary. Being a 
student in the Patriot League and being an athlete in the 
Patriot League are not mutually exclusive. Our students are 
fully engaged in campus life. They live in dorms, eat in the 
dining halls, participate in study abroad, lead campus 
organizations, participate in internships, and they compete as 
Division I athletes.
    This year's Patriot League Women's Basketball Player of the 
Year spent last summer as a business administration intern in 
Barcelona. This was through a scholarship sponsored by the 
business school at Lehigh University. A key contributor on our 
men's basketball championship team from Colgate, and a former 
Patriot League Rookie of the Year, spent last summer as a bunk 
counselor at a camp for children with special needs. He plans 
to pursue a master's in counseling and move into private 
therapy when he finishes playing.
    Just a few years ago, on the day prior to being in the 
starting lineup for our men's basketball championship, I was 
honored to watch our then-Men's Basketball Player of the Year 
from Bucknell present a project with his senior design team to 
leadership at a medical center in northeast Pennsylvania. He 
earned his degree in biomedical engineering in 4 years and is 
now playing professional basketball overseas.
    We have 8,000 young people on our campuses that share 
similar experiences. Those are just three. These are not 
employees of our institutions. They are students being provided 
comprehensive support so that they can experience and achieve 
academic and athletic excellence.
    Just like all students on our campuses, Patriot League 
student-athletes are able to profit off their own name, image, 
and likeness. The League fully supports NIL opportunities. Many 
provide important professional networking, educational, career 
development, and service dimensions. NIL managed and regulated 
in a legitimate manner represents an area of constructive 
change and opportunity for student-athletes.
    Unfortunately, the instability created by the multitude of 
State laws and the lack of transparency in the current 
structure is undermining the positive change. Finding a means 
toward appropriate national regulation around NIL is necessary 
to address these negative impacts.
    Today's challenges are unique, but the fact that such 
challenges exist is not surprising. This is a national model. 
There are differing institutional characteristics and 
priorities to consider, and resulting perspectives will vary, 
but our solutions for the challenges must preserve and protect 
the universally considered positives of intercollegiate 
athletics, its connectivity to the educational mission, and the 
provision of opportunity for hundreds of thousands of young 
people.
    Thank you.
    [The prepared statement of Ms. Heppel follows:]

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    Mr. Bilirakis. Thank you. Appreciate it very much.
    Next we will have Dr. Makola Abdullah, the president of the 
Virginia State University, and you are recognized, sir.
    Thanks for being here. You are recognized for 5 minutes.

             STATEMENT OF MAKOLA M. ABDULLAH, Ph.D.

    Dr. Abdullah. Thank you, sir. Chairman Bilirakis, Ranking 
Member Schakowsky, members of the committee, and members of the 
subcommittee, I am Makola Abdullah. I serve as the president of 
Virginia State University, a historically black college located 
in Chesterfield County just outside of Petersburg, Virginia.
    I serve as a member of the Presidential Board of Advisors 
on HBCUs, chaired by Tony Allen of Delaware State University, 
and I am also the past chair of the Central Intercollegiate 
Athletic Association, the CIAA, the oldest and the--well, the 
first and the oldest, I guess that would be the same thing--
historically black university athletic conference in the 
country. Our current chair is Dr. Aminta Breaux of Bowie State, 
and our commissioner is Ms. Jacqie McWilliams.
    Our Division II athletic programs at Virginia State 
University are led by Mrs. Peggy Davis, the best athletic 
director in the country, and we currently offer 21 
intercollegiate athletic sports, including recently added men's 
and women's soccer and men's and women's lacrosse.
    Again, I would like to thank you for the opportunity to 
participate, to discuss college athletes' rights to the name, 
image, and likeness. While I was afforded an abundance of 
opportunities during my collegiate career, my athletic talents, 
unfortunately, did not afford me the opportunity to participate 
on an NCAA sports team at Howard University.
    I am, however, an avid fan and supporter of college 
athletics and college athletes, and particularly the young men 
and women who suit up in the orange and blue, the Trojan orange 
and blue.
    As president, my goal is to be a part of an institution 
that changes lives through education and prepares our students 
to enter the world as savvy global citizens, lifelong learners, 
and generational change agents. At Virginia State University, 
our athletics program is supported by student fees. While 
college sports has become a multibillion-dollar business, there 
are many institutions like ours where athletics is still very 
much an amateur extracurricular program.
    It is important to remember that there are three divisions 
of athletics, and they are not all created equally. For some 
universities like Virginia State University, again, athletics 
is not revenue generating. We are not one of the major Division 
I institutions. And while we are not, I fully believe, though, 
that it is all of our responsibility to make sure that everyone 
who participates in college athletics has the right to reap the 
benefits of their labor.
    Virginia State University, other HBCUs, and Division II and 
III institutions have been competing against major universities 
for students, student-athletes, faculty, staff, administrators, 
Federal grants, private philanthropic dollars, for many years.
    We are not afraid of competition, and we believe that we 
can successfully recruit student-athletes who understand the 
transformative nature of our--of HBCUs who believe in our 
mission and understand the longstanding tradition of excellence 
at our university.
    I am sure that all of you are aware that, according to the 
NCAA, student-athletes are not required to disclose the amount 
of their NIL deals. However, at Virginia State University, we 
are aware of five student-athletes who have currently disclosed 
an NIL deal. That is a total of--from over 300 athletes--
student-athletes at VSU. If I was to estimate the total value 
of these NIL deals, I am sure that it would be less than 
$10,000.
    The NIL experience is unique to individual institutions 
because the revenue generated differs among all of our 
institutions. It is paramount that we provide our athletes with 
the proper tools to manage the responsibilities that come with 
these NIL deals. Therefore, at VSU we provide financial 
literacy and marketing education for our student-athletes. We 
continue to teach and educate young men and women to maximize 
their ability to make money from their talents and brands.
    I better move quickly.
    As leader of a proud HBCU, we have--we have been concerned 
about our institution's systematic underfunding since our 
founding. At the State level, our previous Governor, Ralph 
Northam, and our current Governor, Glenn Youngkin, and our 
State legislature have tried to address the issue.
    I do know that on the Federal level Congresswoman Alma 
Adams, Congressman French Hill, and Senators Chris Coons and 
Tim Scott of the bipartisan HBCU Caucus, and our Virginia 
delegation led by Congressman Bobby Scott, Congresswoman 
Abigail Spanberger, and Congresswoman Jennifer McClellan, with 
Senators Tim Kaine and Mark Warner, are stalworth advocates for 
addressing these issues.
    While that is not the issue on the table today, it must be 
considered in the context of this conversation, because 
students and student-athletes look at all of a university--all 
that a university has to offer when considering where to attend 
college: your sports facilities, your stadiums and classrooms, 
your libraries and infrastructure. But I will not belabor that 
point as of course that is literally a hearing for another day.
    Thank you very much, sir.
    [The prepared statement of Dr. Abdullah follows:]

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    Mr. Bilirakis. Appreciate it very much. Thank you.
    Our next witness is Mr. Trey Burton, a former National 
Football League player. And did I mention he played his college 
ball at the University of Florida?
    OK. Well, anyway, sir, thank you for being here. We 
appreciate it, and I recognize you for 5 minutes.

                    STATEMENT OF TREY BURTON

    Mr. Burton. Thank you. Good morning, Chair Rodgers, Ranking 
Member Pallone, Chairman Bilirakis, Ranking Member Schakowsky, 
and distinguished members of the committee. I want to thank you 
for the opportunity to testify before you today on the issue of 
name, image, and likeness.
    My name is Trey Burton. I am a former collegiate athlete 
from the University of Florida. Go Gators.
    I was then fortunate enough to play 7 years in the NFL: 4 
years with the Eagles, 2 years with the Bears, and 1 year with 
the Colts. I currently reside in Tampa, Florida, with my wife 
and three children.
    The University of Florida has a very special place in my 
heart. From the age of 6, I dreamed about wearing the orange 
and blue. I will never forget the day that Urban Meyer called 
and offered me a scholarship, which I committed right on the 
spot. The list of things that make UF special to me are too 
long to talk about today, but two things that will forever have 
a lasting impression on my life are the Gator brand and the 
relationships I have made there during my time.
    One of the reasons I believe I am a credible--I am credible 
to talk about the issues in question today is the fact that I 
have seen my sport from the lowest level at the age of 5 and to 
the highest level when I retired at the age of 30. I had my 
breakout game in my freshman season and had a great amount of 
success early on in my time at the university.
    I would have been a perfect candidate and benefited greatly 
from NIL. I got married and had my first child my junior year 
at Florida, and the resources I could have potentially received 
would have benefited my family and gone a long way at that 
time.
    As a 7-year NFL veteran, I can also testify to how the 
sport changes if you are fortunate enough to make the jump from 
amateur sport to professional sport. The peace of mind a 
scholarship gives you compared to a nonguaranteed NFL contract 
is like comparing apples to oranges. They are completely 
different worlds.
    The business side of the NFL is complex. But having 
successfully walked through those contracts, it is important 
for me to speak on those differences and properly equip 
student-athletes for that transition.
    We have an opportunity with NIL to ensure that the business 
deals benefit student-athletes rather than harm them or set 
them up poorly in the long run. As many of you are aware, 
college football has changed or college athletics have changed 
dramatically over the last 18 to 22 months.
    There has been a lot of debate over whether these changes 
have been good or bad for collegiate sports. The evolution of 
NIL has happened so fast that many would argue that it is like 
the wild wild west for colleges and student-athletes alike.
    The line between amateur sports and professional sports 
seems to be getting blurrier and blurrier every day. States 
like California have proposed legislation to equal revenue 
sharing between athletic programs and student-athletes. There 
are even efforts to make all student-athletes employees of the 
universities that they attend.
    I would like to first start by stating that I believe NIL 
is here to stay, and I believe that college athletes should be 
able to get paid as much as legally possible from the 
marketplace for their name, image, and likeness.
    In my opinion, the good that has come with NIL has heavily 
outweighed the bad. We are now seeing athletes able to profit 
not only off their name, image, and likeness, but also off 
business ventures, endorsement deals, and marketing 
opportunities, which I, 10 years ago, never had the chance to 
do.
    There are also amazing stories of athletes giving back to 
their communities and spreading awareness to organizations that 
are near and dear to their hearts. Some of these young adults 
are even able to use their funds to take back home and to take 
care of their family, which would have never been possible 
prior.
    When I was playing, athletes had to choose whether to make 
money or pursue the sport of their dreams and gain an 
education. I am so glad that is no longer the case now.
    On the other hand, some of the negatives I have heard and 
seen with NIL are first and foremost how every State has their 
own laws and rules and regulations regarding how NIL is used. 
This is especially dangerous with the use of NIL in recruiting. 
There is evidence that NIL is currently being used as a 
recruitment tool for both high school athletes as well as 
potential transfer athletes.
    NIL was never intended to be used as pay-for-play. One of 
the worst examples of pay-for-play would be to make these 
athletes employees of the universities. Not only do 
universities not want this, but I believe that this is where 
amateur sport crosses the line into professional sport.
    The other issue I have has been a lack of transparency 
regarding the language of some of the deals that the athletes 
have been given or have already accepted, and there have been 
reports of agents taking up to 30 percent in fees, which is 
unbelievable, and also athletes signing away their intellectual 
property in some cases and access to their social media, which 
is crazy as well.
    If we don't establish a uniform set of rules with clear 
guidelines, these issues will only magnify, allowing student-
athletes to be taken advantage of or caught in the middle.
    As a former Division I athlete, I can tell you that my fear 
in this is that these athletes have been thrown in the fire 
with limited resources, no infrastructure to help them succeed 
and to protect them from bad actors. There needs to be a 
uniform set of NIL rules that everybody has to play by no 
matter where the student plays or how large or small the school 
or the sport is.
    We need to make it a priority now more than ever to educate 
our student-athletes how to take proper advantage of their 
financial opportunities.
    Thank you.

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    Mr. Bilirakis. Appreciate it very much. Hey, Trey, I 
dreamed about it too, but it never happened for me.
    [Laughter.]
    Mr. Bilirakis. I ended up in Congress.
    [Laughter.]
    Mr. Bilirakis. Our next witness is Kaley Mudge, a student-
athlete from Florida State University. And thank you so very 
much for being here, particularly since the season is still 
going on for you. So I recognize you for 5 minutes. Thank you.

                    STATEMENT OF KALEY MUDGE

    Ms. Mudge. Thank you. Chairwoman McMorris Rodgers, Ranking 
Member Pallone, Mr. Bilirakis, Ms. Schakowsky, and 
distinguished members of the Energy and Commerce Committee, 
thank you for providing me with the opportunity to testify 
before you on the important topic of protecting NIL rights for 
college athletes.
    Good morning. My name is Kaley Mudge. I am a red-shirt 
junior outfielder on the Florida State softball team, and I am 
from Winter Springs, Florida.
    I am currently majoring in exercise science and will be 
graduating this spring. My goal is to go to nursing school when 
my eligibility is finished.
    I would first like to thank you for the opportunity to be 
here today and speak to you about my experiences as a college 
student-athlete. Florida State has truthfully changed my life 
in the past 4 years. I have seen myself grow into the best 
version of myself as a student, as an athlete, and as a person.
    I chose Florida State because from the moment I stepped on 
campus it felt like home. I wanted to find a program and an 
institution that felt like a community, and I found that at 
FSU. The professors, coaches, administrators, and students have 
made my 4 years such a great experience.
    The culture of the softball program specifically is such a 
family, and I am blessed to find that in a national 
championship program. My coaches, athletic trainer, 
nutritionist, strength coach, and teammates have all helped me 
become my best self, and I wouldn't be where I am today without 
them.
    I came into FSU as a partial academic and athletic 
scholarship recipient. When NIL came into play in 2021, I was 
very excited for the chance to start earning money to help 
further pay for my education.
    My experience with NIL has been a very positive experience. 
I have gotten the opportunity to learn so much about the 
professional world as a college student, including how to read 
contracts, how to negotiate deals, and how to earn and save 
money. As an Olympic-sport athlete on a partial scholarship, 
NIL has been extremely beneficial to me because I am able to 
help pay for my tuition to hopefully come out of college with 
little debt. One specific deal that I am involved in now has 
given me the opportunity to start saving money for nursing 
school when I am done playing softball.
    NIL has served as an effective means for comprehensive life 
skills education, given the multifaceted nature of this issue. 
This includes financial literacy training, contract review, 
personal branding, business formation, and responsible social 
media strategies.
    Like many universities across the NCAA, Florida State 
University has developed a comprehensive education program to 
provide student-athletes with knowledge, resources, and support 
to navigate the NIL environment. This includes the creation of 
three separate NIL-related courses in partnership with the 
College of Business and School of Entrepreneurship, sport for 
contractor--support for contract review through the College of 
Law, cobranding opportunities through the use of institutional 
marks and logos, and expansion of current university 
partnerships to develop opportunities relative to NIL.
    In addition to the support provided by the institution, the 
collective has provided additional resources in the NIL space, 
specifically in identifying and securing new NIL opportunities, 
understanding market value, and facilitating group licensing 
opportunities for myself and other student-athletes. 
Specifically, I am an ambassador for our FSU collective, and 
this is the deal that is helping me pay for nursing school.
    Given that we compete for national championships, it is 
imperative that we have uniform NIL guidelines and expectations 
as opposed to the current framework of disparate or nonexistent 
State laws and regulations. These national standards should 
guarantee student-athletes the ability to pursue NIL 
opportunities. These standards should also ensure a healthy 
recruiting environment to promote fairness and equity, along 
with a measure of transparency to support the NIL marketplace.
    As we celebrate 50 years of Title IX, it is important that 
the opportunities for participation and access to higher 
education, specifically for underrepresented populations, are 
supported and ensured. There are many threats throughout 
legislation and litigation that would undermine this model.
    Throughout college athletics, and specifically at Florida 
State, student-athletes receive the highest forms of healthcare 
support, including medical coverage for athletic injuries 
beyond graduation and eligibility. We continue to expand access 
to enhanced nutrition and mental health resources, and we also 
receive first-class academic support and resources, such as 
advisors and tutors.
    These benefits enjoyed by student-athletes across the 
country would not be possible without the legal protections 
under Title IX and the redistribution of revenue across all 
sponsored sports. The creation of an employee-employer model 
would significantly threaten this current dynamic and alter 
everything we know about how sports outside football and men's 
basketball are supported.
    NIL has provided me with so many opportunities in the past 
2 years, and it has made my experience even better as a college 
student-athlete.
    Thank you again for your time and for the opportunity to be 
here today.
    [The prepared statement of Ms. Mudge follows:]

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    Mr. Bilirakis. Thank you very much. Thank you for your 
testimony. It was excellent.
    Our next witness is Pat Chun, who is the director of 
athletics from Washington State University. You are recognized, 
sir, for 5 minutes.

                     STATEMENT OF PAT CHUN

    Mr. Chun. Thank you, and good morning. And subcommittee 
Chair Bilirakis, and distinguished members of the subcommittee, 
thank you for the opportunity to appear before you today to 
discuss protecting name, image, and likeness rights for college 
student-athletes.
    My name is Pat Chun. I have worked in college athletics for 
over 25 years and currently serve as the director of athletics 
at Washington State University.
    WSU is a public land-grant research institution. Our 
athletics program sponsors 17 varsity sports comprised of 
nearly 500 student-athletes, including the reigning Pac-12 
Conference women's basketball champions.
    The mission of WSU athletics is to unleash excellence and 
provide a transformational student-athlete experience. WSU 
athletics prides itself on being one of the most fiscally 
efficient athletic departments in the country, with our budget 
consistently ranked amongst the lowest in the Power Five 
conferences.
    Our student-athletes currently hold a school record 3.22 
cumulative grade point average, graduate at an 8 percent higher 
rate than the general student population, while also earning a 
91 percent NCAA graduation success rate, the highest in school 
history. Also, more than 20 percent of our student-athletes are 
first-generation college students.
    College athletics is facing significant challenges with no 
simple solutions. Last year I met weekly serving on the 21-
member NCAA Division I Transformation Committee. At our 
conclusion, recommendations were submitted to the NCAA Division 
I Board of Directors and approved in January.
    These recommendations introduced the holistic model for 
student-athletes, setting expectations for the support of their 
health, safety, and well-being, called for elevating the 
championship experience, and created a fairer, faster, and 
equitable NCAA governance model. Nevertheless, significant 
challenges remain in college athletics.
    The primacy of academics is at the foundation of every 
institution of higher education. While college athletics has 
evolved into a multibillion-dollar industry, our mission 
remains to educate young people and prepare them for their 
respective futures.
    Proposed State legislation and ongoing litigation may 
impact student-athlete employment status, and the issue 
threatens to cause irreparable damage to the student-athlete 
experience. Certain aspects of a potential employer-employee 
relationship should be considered with caution. The notion that 
a student-athlete could be fired for underperformance 
undermines the very core of the educational mission.
    Additionally, transitioning to employment status could 
erode many of the benefits and guarantees that student-athletes 
currently receive through potential tax implications.
    Lastly, if one group of student-athletes becomes employees, 
such as those in high-revenue-producing sports, demands and 
legal claims could be made that all student-athletes should 
become employees. The financial impact could lead to the 
reduction of opportunities for broad-based participation on 
campuses around the country, resulting in significant Title IX 
implications threatening generations of hard-fought progress in 
women's sports.
    NIL was intended to be the next significant benefit for 
student-athletes. Like any other student on campus, the 
student-athletes deserve the right to monetize their NIL based 
on the reputation and platform. Although true NIL provides 
tremendous opportunities for student-athletes, the existing 
environment consists of recruiting inducements, tampering, and 
ultimately pay-for-play, and is wrought with pitfalls and 
misinformation. Recent reports in the media suggest that 
current student-athletes across the country are being 
approached with empty promises which lead to false 
expectations.
    There is a probability that inequity exists in the NIL 
marketplace. One example is from research provided by Navigate, 
a sports data and valuation company. The research focused on 
compensation for influencers states that approximately 77 
percent of the general--meaning noncollege athletics--NIL 
compensation is earned by women.
    Comparatively, the research suggests women student-athletes 
are receiving just 16.2 percent of the college athletics NIL 
compensation. These numbers support the widespread belief that 
the collegiate athletics NIL market is not reflective of the 
true value of a student's NIL.
    Without disclosures, institutions and student-athletes are 
not able to properly assess NIL opportunities for fairness and 
equity. By shielding accurate and required transactional 
information, third parties have profited from the uninformed 
decisions of student-athletes. Only with transparency, 
oversight, and uniform regulation will unscrupulous third 
parties begin to act with the best interests of student-
athletes at heart.
    On behalf of Washington State University and our president, 
Kirk Schulz, we are committed to being a part of the solution. 
We respectfully ask Congress to partner with the NCAA and our 
member institutions to develop Federal standards that provide 
transparency and enforceable safeguards to mitigate the 
negative impact of the existing NIL environment. This will help 
ensure student-athletes benefit from the full potential of 
their NIL.
    It is also vital that we affirm the current relationship 
between student-athletes and institutions. WSU supports 
meaningful oversight that provides protection and value to the 
student-athlete and ensures that institutions and outside 
entities are complying with standardized rules and governing 
policies.
    Thank you.
    [The prepared statement of Mr. Chun follows:]

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    Mr. Bilirakis. Thank you, sir. Appreciate it very much.
    Our final witness is Jason Stahl, executive director and 
founder of the College Football Players Association. You are 
recognized, sir, for 5 minutes.

                STATEMENT OF JASON STAHL, Ph.D.

    Dr. Stahl. Thank you.
    Mr. Bilirakis. Thanks for being here.
    Dr. Stahl. Of course. Chairman Bilirakis, Ranking Member 
Schakowsky, members of the Subcommittee on Innovation, Data, 
and Commerce, I appreciate the opportunity to testify here 
today on behalf of the College Football Players Association, or 
CFBPA.
    My name is Jason Stahl, and I am the institution's founder 
and executive director.
    Since our founding, we have been building an independent, 
voluntary, nonpartisan, membership-driven players association 
that brings together past, present, and future college football 
players from all levels of play.
    Our Leadership Committee, or LC, is comprised of committed 
alumni members and current player members of the CFBPA. The LC 
has guided the development of our 7-point Platform for Change. 
I am proud to have two members of our LC here today.
    Justin Falcinelli played college football at Clemson 
University, where he was a two-time College Football Playoff 
national champion. Here also from our LC is Jordan Meachum. 
Jordan played first at Sacred Heart University and then 
finished his playing career at South Dakota State University, 
where he was an NCAA Division I FCS national championship 
runner-up. Both of these men have many academic honors to their 
name.
    Today I am here to deliver a simple message that the 
problems of college athletics are not so large that they cannot 
be solved by those within the industry. At the CFBPA, we have 
developed a platform which attempts to address all of these 
problems and are ready to sit down at the bargaining table with 
administrators to discuss them.
    In my written testimony for the record, I focused on all 
seven of our proposed reforms, and I hope today to have the 
opportunity in the Q&A to address all of these. However, given 
the brevity of my oral testimony, I will only be focusing on 
two of the seven here today.
    In July 2021, college athletes for the first time had 
access to the free market to monetize their name, image, and 
likeness, NIL. The NCAA had denied college athletes this basic 
economic freedom enjoyed by every other American, spending 
millions of dollars in legal and lobbying fees to falsely keep 
athletes' NIL market value at zero.
    College athletes fought to show--and the Supreme Court 
agreed--that NCAA compensation rules violated antitrust law, 
and with the writing on the wall, the NCAA finally dropped its 
NIL monetization restrictions.
    The vast majority of evidence suggests athletes monetizing 
their NIL has had an overwhelmingly positive effect on athletes 
and their families. To the extent that there are problems in 
the NIL free market that call for new ``consumer protections, 
they are extraordinarily manageable by industry stakeholders, 
including players, through their independent players 
associations.
    It is the position of the CFBPA that the Federal Government 
should stay out of the NIL free market, as they would stay out 
of the NIL free market for every other American citizen. At the 
CFBPA, we believe that there should be no Federal Government 
legislative rollback of the gains college athletes have made in 
the NIL free market.
    If new rules and regulations are needed for athletes 
monetizing their NIL, administrators at the NCAA and in the 
conferences should sit down with players through their 
independent players associations to discuss and come to 
agreement around such changes.
    Once agreements are made, the CFBPA could assist with 
enforcement and with screening attorneys and agents to protect 
the interests of the athletes. Another related area of focus 
within our platform pertains to new media rights contracts. 
Media rights contracts for Power Five football conferences and 
the College Football Playoff championship have exploded in 
recent years and will continue to do so into the future, 
particularly with the CFP expanding from four teams to 12 in 
2024.
    In the coming years, FBS football, particularly at the 
Power Five level, will be awash in many new billions of 
dollars. The players that generate this wealth deserve to share 
in it.
    The CFBPA and independent players associations representing 
other televised sports that are part of these media rights 
deals should sit down at the bargaining table and hammer out 
revenue-sharing agreements. There will be plenty of money in 
the system to share for all those athletes whose name, image, 
and likeness are used in media broadcasts without impairing 
overall operations of athletics departments.
    Unfortunately, as it pertains to athletic departments and 
conferences, the NCAA has recently declared that they are not 
allowed to make direct NIL payments to athletes for their 
appearance in media broadcasts. Lifting this barrier would be a 
good first step to open up competition between conferences and 
individual football programs for player talent and also to 
address other flagrant systemic issues.
    Change is here in college athletics, and it is time for 
administrators at the NCAA conferences and member institutions 
to embrace this change. Player empowerment is only going to 
grow, and there can be no return to the paternalism of the past 
through Federal legislation or other matters.
    At the CFBPA, we are ready to sit down at the table with 
administrators who are interested in moving ahead into the 
future.
    Thank you.
    [The prepared statement of Mr. Stahl follows:]

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    Mr. Bilirakis. I want to thank all of the witnesses for 
their testimony.
    We will move into questions--the question-and-answer 
portion of the hearing. I will begin the questioning and 
recognize myself for 5 minutes.
    Mr. Burton, thank you again for making time to be with us 
today and sharing your experience as an athlete playing at the 
highest levels, both in college and professional football. I 
appreciate it very much.
    After all, not many can say they have a Super Bowl ring or 
were nominated for player--Play of the Year at the ESPYs with 
the Philly Special. And I am not talking about cheesesteaks.
    Based on your accomplishments during your time at the 
University of Florida, it is safe to say that you would have 
had immense opportunities to earn supplemental income from NIL, 
and you mentioned that in your opening statement.
    What would this supplemental income have meant to you? And 
how would NIL have benefited you as a college football player 
and set your family up for financial success?
    Mr. Burton. Thank you. Yes. Like you said, in my testimony 
I mentioned that I got married and had a kid in my junior year. 
So I think that would have, you know, substantially--I think we 
all can agree that that would have been really beneficial for 
us, my wife through, you know, the birth process, and for 
raising up a child, obviously, is very expensive. So, you know, 
we kind of had to do our best budgeting that we possibly could 
based off of what we got from our scholarship check and from 
Pell Grant.
    But I also think that my mom was a single mother, and she 
raised three boys. And so that easily could have helped, you 
know, with whatever situation, you know, we had going on back 
then. But then, also, even going forward, I remember my last 
game of my career in college against Florida State, I separated 
my shoulder.
    And I was kind of the guy that was on the bubble, didn't 
know if I was going to make it to the NFL, didn't know what the 
next move was, but I remember sitting in my house on my rocking 
chair with my arm in a sling, and I looked at my wife and I 
said, ``We have got to be out of here in a month, because our 
scholarship checks are gone. They are done after December.''
    And so there was a lot of uncertainty, and I know for sure 
if I wouldn't have made it into the NFL, I wouldn't have had 
much money, especially I didn't save much money, didn't have 
much money to save to start out with, to continue on next--you 
know, our next venture.
    Mr. Bilirakis. Thank you very much.
    Kaley, you are also a student-athlete competing at the 
highest level of your sport and have accomplished amazing 
things in your time at the Florida State University, such as 
breaking the Women's College World Series record for hits in a 
single World Series with 14.
    Could you elaborate how NIL opportunities have benefited 
you as a current student-athlete, particularly competing in 
women's sports that don't always have the same lucrative 
professional opportunities?
    Ms. Mudge. Yes. When NIL came into play in 2021, I was 
super excited. I didn't know a lot about what the rules were 
going to be and such, but being a partial scholarship student-
athlete has really helped me to help pay for my tuition and 
helped pay for my rent and things that I don't have the luxury 
of paying for myself.
    So NIL has definitely benefited me. And, specifically, with 
the deal with our collective being able to help me pay for 
nursing school when I am done with softball is going to be 
extremely helpful, because I won't have a partial athletic 
scholarship when I start nursing school. So NIL has benefited 
me in a lot--in a very positive way.
    Mr. Bilirakis. Thank you. Thank you very much.
    Trey, you shared in your testimony that when you were 
playing, athletes had to choose whether to make money or go to 
school to pursue an education while playing the sport of their 
dreams. I think this is an important reminder that an essential 
part of the college athlete experience is the ability to pursue 
higher education while playing the sport they love.
    What did you get out of being a student during your time 
there at the University of Florida? And how can we prevent 
disruptions to these educational benefits and this debate about 
how to treat college athletes, please?
    Mr. Burton. I mean, I got a degree, which is, you know, the 
most important during my time there. I think also, like I said, 
the relationships that I was able to have, the professionals 
that I have been able to meet with--you know, through my 
athletic scholarship and because I played football there at the 
university.
    What was your second question again? Sorry.
    Mr. Bilirakis. Yes. Well, just, you know, what did--well, I 
am just going to paraphrase. What did the University of Florida 
or any college, if you had gone to any college, offer you as a 
college athlete?
    Mr. Burton. Yes. So tutoring was by far the number-one 
thing for me that was offered. I know for sure I have a 
reading--not disability, but I have a reading problem. I am 
dyslexic, for the most part, and so like having a tutor be able 
to like talk to me in the way I needed to be taught was super 
beneficial, having them, you know, 24/7. That was probably by 
far the number-one thing that was most beneficial for me as a 
student-athlete.
    Mr. Bilirakis. Very good.
    Kaley, as a current student-athlete, do you have anything 
to add on the benefits you currently receive as a student? And 
how some proposal to change that model may affect your ability 
to continue to receive such benefits?
    Ms. Mudge. Yes. I feel that the college student-athlete 
model that we have today works. I can speak for a lot of 
athletes when I say that we have used athletics as an avenue to 
get a college degree and that having a partial scholarship 
helping to pay for college, being able to play the sport we 
love, has also given us an opportunity to get an education.
    And if that model were changed and funds could be 
redirected away from Olympic sports and away from our 
scholarships, we wouldn't be able to play the sport we love and 
we also wouldn't be able to--some of us wouldn't be able to 
afford college or go to college without the opportunities that 
we have been given as a student-athlete. So the student-athlete 
model that we have now works.
    Mr. Bilirakis. Thank you so very much.
    All right. Now I will recognize Representative Castor from 
the great State of Florida for her 5 minutes of questioning.
    Ms. Castor. Well, thank you, Chairman Bilirakis. Leave it 
to you to bring Gators and Seminoles together. And as Tampa 
Bay's congresswoman, I want to say to you, Mr. Burton, thank 
you so much for your philanthropic activities back home, 
including the Mort Elementary Community School.
    And, Ms. Mudge, as an FSU alum, I am very proud of your 
personal accomplishments and proud to watch how FSU, once known 
as a football powerhouse--and doing all right this past year--
but they have really become a women's soccer and women's 
softball championship school, and that is not by accident.
    You said in your testimony: ``As we celebrate 50 years of 
Title IX, it is important that we ensure the opportunities for 
participation and access to higher education, particularly for 
underrepresented populations,'' that ``they are fostered and 
insured. There are many threats through legislation and 
litigation that would undermine this model.''
    Title IX did not just elevate women in collegiate sports, 
but it elevated collegiate sports overall. And my friend and 
colleague, Mrs. Trahan, is living proof of that, and she knows 
it well.
    Title IX prohibits discrimination at federally funded 
schools and in collegiate athletics. Name, image, and likeness 
policy should not undermine the progress we have made or warp 
this--the operation of this important civil rights law.
    Commissioner Heppel, do you believe that women have NIL 
opportunities as lucrative as their male counterparts? And what 
should we be thinking of as we craft some guardrails here 
federally to ensure that women and girls have every opportunity 
to participate?
    Ms. Heppel. Thank you. You know, I--the challenge in 
answering that question is that we don't know, right? We don't 
have the transparency around what is happening in the NIL 
space.
    The anecdotal evidence and some of the data through what I 
would call voluntary reporting is that, no, you know, what we 
are seeing is that NIL is being used as many--not all, I will--
I will caveat there, but recruiting inducements to enroll out 
of high school, or--or as transfer, and that I think undermines 
what really is the great opportunity that NIL presents.
    And so the need for transparency in a national structure in 
this area--within the Patriot League, I can say that we have--
you know, we invested as a league in a software platform where 
reporting could take place. We have--we crossed four different 
States, the District of Columbia, Army and Navy are members of 
the Patriot League, the cadets and midshipmen are Federal 
employees, so the regulations around Federal employees engaging 
in NIL is another----
    Ms. Castor. OK.
    Ms. Heppel [continuing]. Another--yes.
    Ms. Castor. Dr. Abdullah, what do you think we need to--
what kind of guardrails do we need to have in place moving 
forward to ensure equity?
    Dr. Abdullah. You know, I think one of the critical things 
is that we need to make sure that, as students negotiate their 
NIL deals, as they work with different institutions, that the 
information is transparent, that they can compare information 
from one institution and/or collective to another.
    And I think if we are able to do that, then students and 
student-athletes can successfully negotiate their value on a 
higher level.
    Ms. Castor. OK. Ms. Mudge?
    Ms. Mudge. Yes. I think for guardrails I think it is just--
it would be very helpful for a level playing field. Just with 
what we have now, with different States having different rules, 
I think that can completely alter where recruits want to choose 
their schools based on what State has certain laws.
    And I think even with the transfer portal, like people 
deciding where they want to go, and I think it would be very 
helpful if we just had Federal guardrails and legislation to 
keep everybody on the same page to have a level playing field.
    Specifically, I can think of transparency with fair market 
value. I personally don't know my fair market value. I had 
never been taught that. I still haven't. And having the 
education to know how much I could ask would be very helpful in 
the guardrails.
    Ms. Castor. And, Mr. Chun, you had said only 16.2 percent 
of NIL deals go to female athletes. My--I am out of time, but 
could you provide some guidance in writing for the committee on 
this Title IX inequity issue?
    Mr. Chun. Yes.
    Ms. Castor. Thank you very much.
    I yield back.
    Mr. Bilirakis. Thank you. Thank you.
    Now I will recognize the chairperson of the full committee 
and a great friend of mine, and I appreciate her giving me the 
opportunity to chair this subcommittee. So I want to recognize 
my friend, Cathy McMorris Rodgers, for 5 minutes.
    Mrs. Rodgers. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And, Mr. Bilirakis, 
you are doing an awesome job leading us. Thank you for today's 
hearing.
    I wanted to start with Mr. Chun. Just thank you for being 
here again. And while there are certainly differences in 
resources, even within the Power Five, you represent an 
institution with lots of resources for their student-athletes.
    Would you just walk us through the ways that you are 
helping support and educate young student-athletes at WSU as 
they are approached by agents, collectives, and large-dollar 
NIL deals?
    Mr. Chun. Well, first and foremost, Madam Chair, thank you 
for the leadership you provide to eastern Washington, and we 
appreciate your leadership on this topic.
    At Washington State, our goal is to empower, educate, and 
protect our student-athletes. Our program is actually similar 
to what is going on at Florida State. We take great pride in, 
prior to the NCAA, allowing NIL. We partnered with our Carson 
College of Business. We have a credited course on campus that 
goes through all of the--all of the major points of NIL from 
tax education, managing your social media, contracts. So that 
is really probably our biggest piece.
    We also have full-time staff that we currently employ that 
works directly with our student-athletes. As you are aware, in 
the State of Washington we do not have an NIL law.
    So we are--we are governed by State ethics laws, so that is 
prohibitive on what we can do in terms of directing our 
student-athletes with collectives and with deals, but 
ultimately we provide as much education and introductions as 
possible with our student-athletes while complying with Title 
IX NCAA rules and State of Washington rules.
    Mrs. Rodgers. Thank you. Would you speak to what you 
believe would become of school programs, conferences, if we 
fail to provide Federal certainty to the NIL landscape? And how 
do you see the NCAA factoring into this future?
    Mr. Chun. Well, let me make clear: A true NIL is 
extraordinarily positive for student-athletes, and that needs 
to continue. It is what is going on with recruiting inducements 
with some of these collectives that ultimately are fraudulent 
in what they are doing with NIL. And that is--I mean, I read 
this morning tracking on Florida Atlantic University--I used to 
work there--and their extraordinary run to the Final Four.
    In The Palm Beach Post this morning, the head coach is 
already talking about tampering by third parties to his 
existing roster. That has been happening for weeks. And we have 
rules today in the NCAA that don't allow tampering, that don't 
allow inducements, but because of the disparate State laws, the 
NCAA is at a point now where it is incapable of enforcing those 
rules.
    So where this thing heads is concerning, because as we 
continue to spiral away from any type of commonality with 
recruiting, with the impact it is having on student-athletes in 
terms of just the amount of noise they have to deal with, as 
stated earlier, the value of the degree is what our focus is on 
in higher education.
    But I do see--I do see impacts. If where we are headed 
ultimately leads to, you know, five conferences or a subset of 
schools in those five conferences having to deal with this 
environment in a different way, does have a negative impact on 
the rest of Division I, Division II, and Division III. I mean, 
it is clear the business model of NCAA is what we will see this 
weekend at the men's Final Four. That funds the entire 
operation.
    Mrs. Rodgers. Thank you. Thank you.
    Dr. Abdullah, does Virginia State have the resources to 
support student-athletes in the same way that bigger schools 
do? And are athletes seeing the same level of NIL deal 
engagement?
    Dr. Abdullah. No. Thank you, Madam Chairwoman. No, ma'am. 
Virginia State University, as a Division II institution, we 
support our athletes and our athletic program almost entirely 
on student fees. The amount of funds that the students have in 
terms of scholarships and the facilities is quite a bit 
different than you would find at a Power Five conference, and 
the level of NIL deals that our students have is quite a bit 
different.
    We do not have an NIL collective at Virginia State 
University, and so many of our athletes are successfully trying 
to negotiate their own value on the open market. If you----
    Mrs. Rodgers. Thank you. Very good.
    And, Ms. Mudge, just in the time remaining, would you speak 
to Title IX and just how you believe--or just how it can 
potentially be reversed in coming years if we don't get this 
right?
    Ms. Mudge. Yes. I think that Title IX has definitely paved 
the way, and I am super grateful for those who have paved the 
way before me. And I have had a great experience in my 4 years 
as a college athlete, and I would hate to see it reversed by 
new models coming in to take away opportunities for the Olympic 
sports, especially for women's sports as well.
    So I would hate to see college athletes not have the 
experience that I have in the future, so I am just grateful for 
everything that I have gotten through Title IX.
    Mrs. Rodgers. Thank you all for being here. I yield back.
    Mr. Walberg [presiding]. I thank the chairman for yielding 
back. And as a former wrestler, I am very attentive to the 
clock. There were times I wanted to hear that horn sound.
    [Laughter.]
    Mr. Walberg. And so I will warn my colleagues I am not--I 
am not quite as deferential as our chairman of the 
subcommittee, so we are going to keep to clock here.
    And so now I turn over 5 minutes of questioning to the 
ranking member, Representative Schakowsky.
    Ms. Schakowsky. I am nervous now. OK. I am watching. I am 
moving actually a little away from you. No.
    So I wanted to ask Mr. Stahl a couple of questions. I am 
wondering--and you are representing Players Association.
    Dr. Stahl. Yes, ma'am.
    Ms. Schakowsky. Yes. What specific things should college 
sports do to improve the healthcare and the safety of our 
student-athletes?
    Dr. Stahl. Well, I will speak specifically to our football 
player members, the CFBPA. I think twofold--first, we should 
look at the practice environment. We have a platform plank that 
is structured around this. I think the practices environment 
right now is pretty much under the control of a coach. Some 
coaches are caring; some coaches are not.
    And I think that having independent third-party 
representatives from CFBPA in those practice environments, 
making sure rules and regulations regarding health and safety 
were followed, particularly in football where we all know that 
brain injuries are so prevalent. They are prevalent most in the 
practice situation. So that is what I would say, first.
    Second, I think postplaying career, health protections are 
integral. Mr. Burton's story I think was one I hear a lot from 
our alumni members, quite frankly. Justin Falcinelli is sitting 
behind me. He has a very similar injury story of getting an 
injury one of the last games of the season. You are going to go 
on, you have these NFL dreams, and then what?
    And so I think there is this question, then, of what is the 
responsibility of the NCAA? Or what is the responsibility of 
the member institutions or the conference? We think guaranteed 
healthcare standardized across the industry would be a good 
starting point.
    Access to hospitals and clinics that are on these 
universities and campuses I think would be integral to long-
term care, and then also brain injuries, which show up 
sometimes decades--you know, after effects from brain injuries, 
sometimes decades after they happen.
    Ms. Schakowsky. Do you think--are you thinking also about 
CTE, not just about concussion?
    Dr. Stahl. I mean, I know there is a lot of debate around 
CTE. I very much prefer to use the term ``brain injury.'' I 
have used it several times here----
    Ms. Schakowsky. OK.
    Mr. Stahl [continuing]. In part because I think it gets us 
out of political debates around CTE.
    Ms. Schakowsky. OK.
    Dr. Stahl. I think, though, we see and see this in our 
alumni members. I can't tell you the number of men I have had 
discussions with at 30, 40, 50, 60, still suffering from those 
brain injuries that they incurred in college. And we are here 
not talking about people like Mr. Burton who went on to the 
NFL. We are talking about people strictly with a college 
playing career.
    Ms. Schakowsky. So let me ask you this. Do you think that 
collective bargaining would be helpful for student-athletes?
    Dr. Stahl. I do. I think there is a number of forums 
collective bargaining could take, though. I am cognizant of 
what new NCAA President Charlie Baker said, that there's sort 
of two tiers that seem to be happening here. I think long term, 
as we look at the evolution of college football, that could be 
where we are going.
    And so as we think about collective bargaining, a formal 
collective bargaining effort through unions, through union 
chapters, or through a union at the conference level, let's 
say, like we--we have attempted to do in the past, would be 
important for those programs at the highest level of play here. 
I am talking about what are called Power Five football 
programs.
    But we have members from all levels of play, and so I think 
that is important to talk about. So I think what is appropriate 
for a Power Five program or a Power Five conference is not 
going to be appropriate for levels on down. But of course those 
members need a players association as well, and they need 
collective bargaining. I do believe at those levels, though, it 
could be done on a voluntary basis.
    We have already started doing some of that. We have a core 
group of members at a Division I FCS school, and at that school 
I have had conversations with the coach that I would 
characterize as informal collective bargaining around issues 
that are central to our members at that program. So our members 
came to us and said, ``We are not getting proper nutrition.''
    So, you know, there is a way in which we listen to our 
members, and then the bargaining that we would do is dependent 
upon what they want to do.
    Ms. Schakowsky. Thank you for that. You know, billions and 
billions of dollars is involved in student athletics. Not every 
institution--I understand that--and not every sport, but we 
certainly want to do more, I think, to protect our student-
athletes. I really appreciate that. I also just--well, I guess 
I was going to thank Kathy Castor for taking my seat, and I 
really thank all of the witnesses. Want to work more with you 
as we move forward.
    Thank you so much. Thank you.
    Dr. Stahl. Thank you, ma'am.
    Mr. Walberg. I thank the gentlelady for setting the charted 
course now with 4 seconds left to spare.
    Ms. Schakowsky. You threatened me.
    Mr. Walberg. I would never threaten you.
    [Laughter.]
    Mr. Walberg. I am not that brave.
    I want to recognize now for his 5 minutes for questioning 
the gentleman from Indiana, Dr. Bucshon.
    Mr. Bucshon. Well, thank you very much, and thanks for this 
hearing. It is very timely.
    Since coming to Congress, I have had the opportunity to 
participate in several hearings related to this issue--back in 
2014, related to the attempted unionization of Northwestern 
University athletes, is what I am going to comment on.
    During my time on the Education and Workforce Committee, I 
got to speak with former all-American student-athletes from low 
income backgrounds who went on to play professional sports. 
They told me about how, when they were in school, however, 
despite full scholarships, they couldn't afford a host of 
personal expenses, including one of them described going out 
for pizza with his friends, his friends paid for that type of 
thing because he didn't have the money.
    But I also feel like from that hearing and all of the 
testimony that an employment model for student-athletes creates 
all kinds of unintended consequences and would be very 
difficult to maintain the integrity of the student-athlete 
system as we know it today. But stories like this are why the 
advent of NIL deals occurred and why earnings for such athletes 
can be and will be a positive thing.
    I am fully supportive of individuals being able to 
participate in the free market and to be able to earn what they 
can and determine their value as you described.
    While I believe we need a system that accommodates such 
opportunities, I also recognize the need to preserve the 
student-athlete model, as I mentioned, that is relied upon by 
the overwhelming majority of athletes. Like many of my 
colleagues on this committee, I represent universities with 
NCAA Division I athletic programs.
    I proudly represent the University of Evansville and 
Indiana State University, members of the Missouri Valley 
Conference, one of 32 NCAA Division I multisport conferences, 
as well as the University of Southern Indiana, which is 
currently transitioning from Division II into Division I.
    Though you may not have seen many Valley teams competing on 
TV or know that its top athletes continue to compete at a 
professional, Olympic, and Paralympic levels, the Valley is 
representative of the typical collegiate athletic experience 
for most student-athletes across the country. They attend 
classes, they graduate, and they compete for championships 
across 17 sports at the Division I level.
    There are approximately 200,000 student-athletes competing 
in Division I. Eighty percent of them are thriving and finding 
tremendous success in conferences similar to the Missouri 
Valley.
    So, Dr. Abdullah, I recognize there are differences in the 
levels of student support available from schools whose athletic 
programs do and do not generate revenue. Is there a risk of 
young athletes unintentionally locking themselves out of 
financial aid or future NIL opportunities if resources are 
limited, especially at smaller schools?
    Dr. Abdullah. Thank you, sir, for the question.
    Mr. Bucshon. If that makes sense.
    Dr. Abdullah. It does. It does. You know, I think it is 
critically important that we provide the right opportunities 
for our students. One of the things that my athletic director 
tells me all the time is that we have to be--we have to be wary 
of those who purport to protect student-athletes, and instead 
what we need to do at Virginia State is to provide them with 
the knowledge and information, so that they can protect 
themselves.
    I have run into a gentleman today--yesterday at the hotel, 
Mr. Jamar Samuels, who was unfortunate--had an unfortunate 
incident in 2012 where he was ruled ineligible for accepting 
$200. At that time--we all know that before NIL that all of us 
were dealing with rules and regulations that we thought to 
purport to protect students--student-athletes, and in fact they 
weren't doing that.
    And so I think that with transparency, even those schools 
that have limited resources such as ours, that we can compete 
on the open market, albeit quite differently than some of our 
colleagues here, and that we can provide quality opportunities 
for those young people who choose to come to Virginia State 
University.
    Mr. Bucshon. Sure. We don't want athletes to make mistakes 
that would compromise their futures.
    Ms. Heppel, do you believe that institutions distributing 
NIL support resources should do so among all student-athletes 
and not just those participating in revenue-generating sports?
    Ms. Heppel. Thank you. Absolutely. I mean, what we are 
talking about are educational resources and tools to be 
successful in life as a student, but then beyond, and those 
should be equally accessible to all student-athlete 
participants.
    Mr. Bucshon. You know, what are some potential guardrails 
to consider to ensure that institutions do not focus the 
overwhelming majority of their NIL support resources for 
athletes to revenue-generating sports? I mean, it is a tough--
it is a tough problem, right?
    Ms. Heppel. Well, but it is consistent with challenges, and 
we already, as leaders in athletics, focus on the well-being of 
all of our student-athletes, regardless of the sport. Thank 
you.
    Mr. Bucshon. Thank you. I yield back.
    Mr. Duncan [presiding]. The gentleman's time has expired. 
The Chair will now recognize Ms. Blunt Rochester for 5 minutes.
    Ms. Blunt Rochester. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. While I was 
not an athlete, I did graduate from the Cinderella school that 
busted everyone's bracket, Fairleigh Dickinson University, and 
I was born in Philadelphia. So on behalf of all of us, we thank 
you, Mr. Burton, for the Philly Special.
    Thank you to all of the witnesses here for your testimony, 
and I am glad that we are having this very important 
conversation about the rights and protections of collegiate 
athletes. Since 2021, we have taken large strides forward on 
the right to benefit from one's own name, image, and likeness.
    Still, we are faced with significant questions on how we 
should continue to support the rights of collegiate athletes 
and ensure they have the right tools to make the best decisions 
possible.
    Dr. Abdullah, thank you for your testimony and for your 
work advocating for HBCUs. As the only member of the House from 
Delaware, I have the privilege of representing Delaware State 
University here in Congress, and I want to acknowledge your 
role on the Presidential Board of Advisors for HBCUs that is 
chaired by Delaware's own DSU President, Dr. Tony Allen.
    Dr. Abdullah, if a Federal NIL standard were to be 
developed, what key provisions would you suggest be included to 
help ensure that athletes at midsized schools, smaller schools, 
and historically black colleges and universities in particular 
are protected and afforded the best opportunity to succeed?
    Dr. Abdullah. Thank you so much, ma'am. It is important to 
note that there are over 500,000 athletes that participate in 
NCAA championship sports. And many of those athletes are at 
Division II, Division III, and smaller midmajor institutions in 
Division I.
    And so designing rules and regulations that are, one, 
transparent, but also take into account that there are many 
different sizes of institutions that generate quite different 
revenue, who offer different sports, but to make sure that we 
can provide protection--NIL protection--for all of those 
students through transparency.
    Ms. Blunt Rochester. In your testimony, you stated the 
importance of providing athletes with the proper tools to 
manage the responsibilities that come with NIL deals. Ahead of 
this hearing, I heard from a group of athletes on Delaware 
State University's Student-Athlete Advisory Committee about how 
difficult it is to navigate NIL deals and the need for 
increased resources and support for athletes interested in 
benefiting from them.
    Can you talk specifically about what kind of resources or 
tools would support HBCUs, such as yourself, and as you support 
the athletes navigating these to make sure that they are 
protected?
    Dr. Abdullah. Our institution, through our athletic 
director, Mrs. Peggy Davis, does a lot of the same things that 
our other institutions do in terms of providing quality 
education for students. But our SAAC director also, Ms. Alexis 
Baker, mentioned the same thing as the students from Delaware 
State, that really a lack of transparency, not knowing the 
rules in different States, not knowing whether she is getting 
the best deal in Virginia or whether she should be getting a 
deal somewhere else, is critically important. And so 
transparency is critical.
    Ms. Blunt Rochester. I think that issue of transparency and 
also the patchwork nature of what is happening is also very 
confusing.
    How can we make sure that the competitive disadvantage many 
HBCUs and HBCU athletes face as a result of these limited 
resources is not exacerbated by NIL?
    Dr. Abdullah. Ma'am, I will tell you this. We are proud to 
compete against everybody all the time. Whether it is 
facilities or resources or coaches, we are always at a 
competitive disadvantage in many aspects, but we are proud to 
compete. And what we don't want to happen--we want to make sure 
that young people have access to find the way to find their 
true value and to get their resources, and we would not want to 
hold that back.
    Ms. Blunt Rochester. Thank you.
    And, Mr. Stahl, you mentioned in your testimony that 
Dartmouth College is employing a new technology to eliminate 
players on the same team hitting one another during practice. 
Can you explain this technology in a bit more detail? And is 
there--is this something that you think should be scaled up 
more broadly? Are there other emerging technologies that show 
promise as well for safety and the experience of the collegiate 
athlete?
    Dr. Stahl. I greatly appreciate that question. Yes, I do 
think they should be scaled up. Absolutely. It is--in terms of 
cost, I was shocked recently to find out that--so what they use 
effectively are robot tackling dummies. They cost about $6,000 
each. And so we had somebody from our organization who did this 
research to find out, OK, where do these exist, right? There 
are some in the pros.
    In terms of the top tier of, you know, thinking about Power 
Five schools, they are in use at Michigan. Dartmouth, we really 
do feel, you know, the Ivy League in particular is at the 
forefront here of using this type of technology and showing 
that you can win--they have won many Ivy League championships 
despite the fact that they are--or I would say because they are 
using this technology and practice.
    Ms. Blunt Rochester. Well, thank you for your answer. We 
will follow up after this as well----
    Dr. Stahl. Please.
    Ms. Blunt Rochester [continuing]. To get more details, and 
I yield back.
    Mr. Duncan. The gentlelady yields back.
    I will now recognize myself for 5 minutes. We are on our 
third chairman today, but I am glad to be chairing this. I have 
followed the NIL issue for quite a long time here in Congress.
    So as my wife who is in the room with us today can attest, 
I am a college football junkie. And Washington State 
University, my son and I watch, that is our late-night game on 
the East Coast, especially during the 7 years that Mike Leach 
was there, rest his soul, and enjoy WSU football.
    I will say that I understand that NIL is here to stay, but 
I align myself with some comments Jake Sherman made today in 
Punchbowl Sports when he said the ability of college athletes 
to get paid while they compete has changed the landscape of 
amateur athletics. And I agree with that.
    I appreciate the amateurism of college sports at all 
levels. I say I am a college football junkie, but I like 
college sports in general.
    As the proud elected representative of South Carolina's 3rd 
Congressional District, I have the distinct honor of 
representing Clemson University, home to the 2016 and 2018 
college football national champions. And I am glad Buddy Carter 
isn't here. I don't want to hear about the Georgia Bulldogs. We 
hear enough of that. Many of our Tigers have gone on to 
illustrious careers in the NFL.
    In your written testimonies, Director Chun asked us to 
develop Federal standards that provide transparency and 
enforceable safeguards to mitigate the negative impact of 
existing NIL environment. Commissioner Heppel stipulates the 
need for development of a national standard around NIL rights.
    Mr. Burton testifies that--to the need to establish a 
uniform set of rules with clear guidelines with an eye to pay-
to-play issues and recruiting. And Ms. Mudge says that it is 
imperative that we have uniform guidelines and expectations 
relative to NIL as opposed to the current framework, and also 
with an eye towards potential recruiting problems.
    I think that is remarkable--a current athlete, a former 
athlete, an athletic director, and a league commissioner in 
unanimous agreement on the need for a national standard.
    So, Commissioner Heppel, let me start off with 
acknowledging something that I think I heard you say, and that 
is there is a value of a scholarship and the benefits provided 
by the university to college athletes that is often left out of 
this debate. They are already getting some value.
    And, as Mr. Burton said, the value of that college degree 
to go on--and even Ms. Mudge, to go on to a nursing degree and 
career, there is value in that, and that needs to be kept in 
the forefront as we talk about this.
    I am afraid that the redistribution of revenues will affect 
the ability of universities to fund some of the lower--I say 
lower-tier, they are not--but lower-tier athletic programs, 
other than college football, college basketball and baseball, 
and some sports.
    So, Commissioner Heppel, as a league commissioner, what 
should the standards look like?
    Ms. Heppel. Thank you, I think. The--no, I mean, I--it is 
the key question. I would say that we have to start with what 
NIL is not and should not be used as, which is recruiting 
inducements and pay-for-play.
    Mr. Duncan. Right.
    Ms. Heppel. And clearly have regulations that preclude 
that, which we do now in the NCAA structure. But, as you noted, 
the patchwork of State laws around NIL specifically make that 
hard to enforce at a national level, and this is national 
competition.
    Mr. Duncan. And, look, I agree with you. I mean, the 
coaches that are recruiting--and now we are going to have 
alumni participating in that--I came through right after the 
Charley Pell years at Clemson University, where recruiting 
violations by alumni and booster clubs caused us to go on 
probation right after our national championship.
    I want to move to Mr. Stahl. The ACC Student-Athlete 
Advisory Committee in its letter of March 28th states, ``A pay-
for-play model would exacerbate the disparities faced in 
women's sports and historically black colleges and universities 
as funds will have to be redirected from nonrevenue-generating 
sports to almost entirely football and men's basketball. Even 
at Power Five level, roughly half of athletic departments run a 
deficit annually.
    ``Directly compensating student-athletes will further 
expose challenges to sustain other sports, potentially 
forfeiting opportunities for thousands of prospective student-
athletes in years to come. In essence, the college model must 
remain unchanged. Congress would do a disservice to student-
athlete sports culture and American society in general if it 
passes a bill that diminishes the educational opportunities 
that leave schools no choice but to reduce scholarships or cut 
programs to budget reallocations.''
    Mr. Stahl, unless you can point to a previously unknown 
source of funding that keeps these other sports funded as they 
are today, I am not willing to kill the aspirations of so many 
young athletes who don't play football. Can you speak to that?
    Dr. Stahl. What is the question specifically?
    Mr. Duncan. So, you know, if you're reallocation--
reallocating these funds, how are the softball players, the 
hockey players, the lacrosse, the track and field, how are they 
going to be funded? And would this not limit opportunities for 
student-athletes at these universities to have the opportunity 
to get a scholarship, attend a college, and reap the benefits 
that Mr. Burton and Ms. Mudge have?
    Dr. Stahl. OK. So there is a levels-of-play question for--
here for sure. And there is new money coming in. So the media 
rights contracts that are coming down the pipe now, and all the 
Power Five conferences, college football playoff system, we are 
talking about many, many, many new billions of dollars.
    Mr. Duncan. Well, that is----
    Dr. Stahl. The idea----
    Mr. Duncan [continuing]. Power Five.
    Let's go to Dr. Abdullah. How is your university going to 
navigate all that? My time is way over, but quickly.
    Dr. Abdullah. I think we--again, our university is 
primarily based on student fees. We are managing it now. We are 
managing it through NIL, and we believe that transparency will 
help athletes be able to determine their value.
    Mr. Duncan. OK. Thank you.
    My time is up. I will go to Mr. Soto from Florida for 5 
minutes.
    Mr. Soto. Thank you, Chairman. You know, college sports is 
now a $16.6 billion industry. Just incredible when you think 
about those numbers. And I want to thank my fellow Floridian 
and Chairman Bilirakis for inviting both UF and FSU to this 
panel. Let it not be said this committee is not fair and 
balanced. That led to a whole rivalry discussion in my office, 
so thank you to Gus for that one.
    And we have two teams in the Final Four, Miami and FAU, 
which also is worthy of discussing how proud we are of both of 
those programs.
    Many athletes come from communities of color or 
socioeconomically disadvantaged communities in college sports--
obviously not everyone--and we have seen it become a volatile 
combo over the years with--prior to NIL--name, image, 
likeness--compensation being established.
    When I was in the Florida Senate, FSU was heading into the 
championship, and a major player had legal trouble--a minor 
theft--in the midst of all this stuff, because that player 
lived in nearly abject poverty, being surrounded by money on 
all sides, from students and boosters to universities. And it 
just struck me how this person could help lead this amazing 
program and still lack basic funds that your average FSU 
student had.
    And so, in 2021, Florida establishes the new law, first, 
establishing an NIL statute. And then they made some reforms in 
2023, which I wanted to ask some of our folks about first, that 
allows the universities to be involved in setting up 
endorsement deals should the college athlete like that want 
that to happen.
    Two, financial literacy, life skills, and entrepreneurial 
workshops. Now NIL contracts can last longer than the period of 
that athlete's collegiate career, and college athletes and 
their representatives no longer need to disclose the athlete's 
contracts to the schools should they not.
    So my first question is for Ms. Mudge. Florida law we 
talked about has this financial literacy, life skills, and 
entrepreneurial workshops requirement. Did you participate in 
those workshops? Were those helpful for you or for some of your 
colleagues?
    Ms. Mudge. Yes. I am not sure if these are the workshops 
you are talking about or not, but we were given a lot of 
information from our compliance department. And also, having 
teammates that are in the NIL courses from Florida State 
University, they have learned a lot about how to read 
contracts, how to negotiate deals, and just the new world of 
how to make a brand for yourself.
    I am not particularly sure on which workshops you might be 
discussing, but I just feel, as a student-athlete, especially 
at Florida State, they have given us a lot of information of 
how to go about the new NIL world.
    Mr. Soto. Sure. And that definitely sounds like the results 
of the new statutes. So thank you, Ms. Mudge.
    Dr. Abdullah, do you think these types of workshops would 
be helpful nationwide?
    Dr. Abdullah. I think they definitely would be helpful 
nationwide. And given that our academic institutions--and I 
know we all are doing it, but the fact that we are involved in 
education--I mean, that is the critical part, and I think it is 
very important that we continue to provide guidance for young 
people to be able to maximize their value.
    Mr. Soto. And, Mr. Burton, you have had the amazing honor 
from your hard work of both playing on the collegiate level and 
on the NFL level. How important do you think early on getting 
some of this financial direction would be, given your 
experience with some of your colleagues from college, and then 
going into the NFL?
    Mr. Burton. Yes. I think it is extremely important. Knowing 
what I know now, you know, if I did have NIL, you know, after 
playing 7 years in the league and doing endorsement deals and 
marketing deals and contracts, I would have been a completely 
different person.
    So I think, you know, now that guys are--men and women are 
starting to get paid, before it was important but you didn't 
really know what you didn't know, you know? Like I went to--I 
went to classes at Florida about taxes, but I didn't really 
understand what taxes were until I got to the NFL and, you 
know, half my check is gone. So I think they are extremely 
important.
    Mr. Soto. It depends on what State you live in, for the 
record. And, well, Mr. Burton, you may have a career teaching 
NIL financial literacy to one of Florida's local universities, 
so----
    Mr. Burton. I would love that.
    Mr. Soto [continuing]. We certainly appreciate that.
    The other thing I want to talk about briefly is, you know, 
college sports is glorious but also is dangerous. You can get 
injuries that last for years. And so, Mr. Stahl, or Dr. Stahl, 
do college sports help support healthcare needs of former 
athletes suffering from these injuries after their playing 
career is over?
    Dr. Stahl. Not as well as they should. I think there really 
needs to be a uniform nation--we were talking a lot about 
uniform nationwide standards regarding NIL. And I think what we 
should actually be talking about is uniform nationwide 
standards regarding healthcare after players are done with 
their playing days.
    Mr. Soto. Thank you, Dr. Stahl.
    It is clear we need national rules eventually. Our States 
are our workshops on this right now. But I would encourage the 
chairman to continue onward for nationwide standards to avoid 
this asymmetry in competition we heard a lot about earlier 
today.
    And I yield back.
    Mr. Bilirakis [presiding]. Thank you. Appreciate it very 
much.
    All right. Now I recognize the vice chairman of the 
subcommittee, Mr. Walberg, my good friend from Michigan.
    Mr. Walberg. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and now I find out 
maybe I could have had my five shoulder surgeries taken care 
of.
    Appreciate all the witnesses being here today. It is a 
topic that--it is past its time of addressing. In 2021, the 
State of Michigan passed a name and image and likeness law for 
our colleges and institutions. Go Blue, Go Green. But Michigan 
is only one State in the patchwork of State NIL laws and is 
causing confusion across conferences.
    We need to establish clear rules of the road, so athletes, 
colleges, and advertisers can all benefit. The radical National 
Labor Relations Board--that is my own opinion--in 2021 issued a 
memo where the general counsel alleged that student-athletes 
had been misclassified and are in fact employees at the 
academic institutions.
    As a member of the Education and Workforce Committee who 
has jurisdiction over this topic, I have heard from smaller 
schools in Michigan, such as Adrian College, a school that 
blossomed from 800 students to 1,700 students in a short period 
of time due to upgrading their athletic programs to over 50 
teams, 70 percent of their scholar athletes are involved in 
those teams, ranging from of course football and basketball, 
lacrosse, hockey, women's hockey, women's synchronized 
swimming, Esports, and even bass fishing, which is a revenue 
producer for the college.
    Sports grew this institution as well as its academic 
facilities, chemistry labs, business facilities, et cetera.
    Ms. Heppel, the Patriot League competes at the Division I 
level amongst schools like Mr. Chun's. But as your testimony 
shares, your league represents a diverse group of institutions, 
many of whom see reclassifying student-athletes as an employee 
as the breaking point for sponsorship of athletic programs.
    Can you share more on why many of your institutions have 
come to this conclusion?
    Ms. Heppel. Thank you. Athletics is conducted and 
considered an important cocurricular activity on our campus. It 
is part of the educational process and the experience that the 
student-athletes receive for being students and being fully 
engaged in campus life. That is not an employer-employee 
relationship. That is an institutional experience being 
provided to a student--to the student body.
    So it would be incompatible to consider the student-athlete 
an employee in that type of relationship.
    Mr. Walberg. Dr. Abdullah, would you care to answer that as 
well?
    Dr. Abdullah. We have tons of extracurricular activities on 
campus, including an award-winning marching band, our debate 
club, as well as our student athletics. And so for us, a 
university that is committed to amateurism and in a conference 
that is committed to amateurism, that would be inconsistent for 
Virginia State University.
    Mr. Walberg. Appreciate that. In 2014, the NLRB was 
involved with the Northwestern football players' effort to 
unionize their teams. In 2022, the NLRB was again involved in 
an effort to upend the current collegiate sports model.
    Dr. Stahl, your organization was involved in a recent 
effort to unionize the football team at Penn State. Would you 
rather student-athletes unionize, or would you rather there not 
be student-athletes at all?
    Dr. Stahl. It is up to them. Whatever our members want is 
what we try to do. And so our members tell us different things. 
When we were organizing Penn State, we actually had a two-tier 
campaign.
    The second tier said if there is not voluntary recognition 
of what we are trying to do, if there is not a coming to the 
table voluntarily with coaches, with administrators on campus, 
with the commissioner of the Big Ten, then, yes, we might have 
to go that more formal route.
    But we came out with our hand extended. We said--because 
that is what the members wanted to do at Penn State.
    Mr. Walberg. At Penn State, they made that choice to not--
--
    Dr. Stahl. That is correct.
    Mr. Walberg [continuing]. Not unionize. OK.
    Dr. Stahl. No. They made the choice to have the 
unionization option as the backup option.
    Mr. Walberg. As a backup option.
    Mr. Chun, would you like to respond to Dr. Stahl on that 
issue? And if collective bargaining were to take place, what 
resources would have to be relegated, perhaps to the detriment 
of students?
    Mr. Chun. Complicated question.
    Mr. Walberg. And I only have 11 seconds, 10 seconds.
    Mr. Chun. I mean, ultimately, we are in a model that puts a 
primacy on academics, broad-based programming opportunities for 
men and women across multiple sports. Anything that--you look 
to my right, how do you--how is a football player unionized or 
an employee and a softball player isn't?
    We can all sit here and know the inputs are the same. She 
is putting as much time in as he did on the--in the weightroom, 
in the classroom, in the practice field. There is no difference 
other than the venues in which they play in and the amount of 
viewership. That is it.
    Mr. Walberg. Thank you.
    Thank you. I yield back.
    Mr. Bilirakis. Thank you very much.
    I will recognize the gentlelady from New York, Ms. Clarke.
    Ms. Clarke. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman, and I thank 
our ranking member. I thank our panelists for being here today 
and for really shedding light on a topic that has taken on 
great resonance across this--across this Nation.
    Recognizing collegiate athletes' name, image, and likeness 
rights is a step in the right direction. But it would be a 
mistake for this committee not to recognize and address what I 
think is the root issue, and that is the empowerment of 
collegiate athletes.
    I was just having a conversation with my colleague, Mrs. 
Trahan, and we are talking about collegiate when in fact the 
recruitment of these students starts in their high school 
years, right? So if we really want to look at the type of 
branding, information, and education, it kind of has to begin 
in their high school careers, where they are truly on a track 
for that type of education.
    But having said that, this multibillion-dollar collegiate 
sports industry is built, I believe, off the backs of our 
students, mostly black and brown, collegiate athletes, and the 
benefits that they have received are very few. The current 
system is premised both on collegiate athletes' disempowerment 
and unpaid labor, a system some--like sports commentator Bomani 
Jones--has termed ``legalized exploitation.''
    I think we are at the stage where that tipping point has 
been set, and I am hoping that we can move expeditiously to end 
the practice.
    Mr. Chair, I ask unanimous consent to enter into the record 
the March 21st New York Times op-ed entitled ``Even the Supreme 
Court Can't Save the NCAA from Itself.''
    Mr. Bilirakis. Without objection, so ordered.
    [The information appears at the conclusion of the hearing.]
    Ms. Clarke. Thank you very much.
    In the recent Alston v. NCAA ruling by the Supreme Court, 
Justice Brett Kavanaugh wrote in a concurring opinion that 
``the current NCAA model is suppressing the pay of student-
athletes who collectively generate billions of dollars in 
revenues for colleges every year.''
    Those enormous sums of money flow to seemingly everyone 
except student-athletes. College presidents, athletic 
directors, coaches, conference commissioners, and NCAA 
executives take in six- and seven-figure salaries. Colleges 
build lavish new facilities, but the students who generate the 
revenues, many of whom are African American and from lower-
income backgrounds, end up with little to nothing.
    Mr. Chun, what are your thoughts on Justice Kavanaugh's 
observations? Is that an accurate characterization of the 
current system?
    Mr. Chun. The primacy of academic is the number-one 
priority of college athletics. The greatest factor today in 
social mobility is still a college education.
    Our business model is flawed. On most campuses, it is one, 
maybe two sports, at least at our level, that provide resources 
and revenues to fund the rest of the athletic department. And, 
oh, by the way, we are legally obligated to follow Title IX. So 
access, opportunity, there has to be equity.
    So the model that we have currently provides extraordinary 
opportunities for multiple student-athletes. And, oddly enough, 
the segment of--there is a certain segment of schools, because 
of this men's basketball tournament, that provide opportunities 
like Dr. Abdullah said to half a million student-athletes 
across 1,200 institutions across three divisions.
    So there are inherent flaws in the model. I recognize that. 
But the reality is, is it--those flaws are--have created this 
opportunity for endless, countless student-athletes.
    Ms. Clarke. Very well.
    What are your thoughts on Justice Kavanaugh's observations, 
Mr. Stahl? Dr. Stahl.
    Dr. Stahl. I obviously largely agree with him. I want to--
do want to respond to something that Mr. Chun said, and it has 
been repeated, you know, throughout this panel: the supremacy 
of the sort of academic mission of the student-athlete, of 
higher education, and so on and so forth. I mean, I just think 
we all need to acknowledge that that has been severely 
degraded.
    As you get new billions of dollars into the system, what 
becomes of paramount importance is making more of that money, 
exercising the power that that money gives you. And so athletes 
then, you know, just very base level, like getting to choose 
the major they want to, right, this is more and more rare, 
particularly for sports like football. Many, many stories I 
have heard of, I agree, it should be--it should continue to be 
at the center of the vision for college athletics.
    But because of these enormous financial pressures on the 
system, it is not. And we really do need to address that and 
remedy the ways in which I think many college athletes quite 
simply just don't get to pick the academic major they want.
    Ms. Clarke. Thank you so much, Dr. Stahl.
    I yield back.
    Mr. Bilirakis. The gentlelady yields back.
    I now will recognize Dr. Dunn from the State of Florida----
    Mr. Dunn. Thanks very much----
    Mr. Bilirakis [continuing]. For your 5 minutes.
    Mr. Dunn. [continuing]. Mr. Chairman. After listening to 
this excellent panel today, it is abundantly clear that the 
patchwork regulatory system for the NIL licenses is simply not 
working. State NIL regulations, I believe, began as a well-
intentioned attempt to promote fair treatment of student-
athletes, but unfortunately this turns quickly into a system 
where the States are forced to kind of game their programs' 
recruiting advantages and disadvantages.
    And I think Congress does need to act to promote a fair 
nationwide NIL landscape that is transparent and benefits the 
athletes without favoring one school or State over another.
    I am most concerned with the rise of the collectives that 
may be abused by boosters to work around the rules. This can 
create undesirable incentives, which brings college athletics 
closer to a pay-to-play sort of scheme. I firmly believe we 
should be imposing guardrails to ensure the entities operate in 
full compliance of the NCAA standards and the law.
    Mr. Chun, your testimony mentioned numerous benefits that 
the Washington State athletics department provides for student-
athletes. Can you speak to some of the effects--positive or 
negative--that your programs may see with boosters donating to 
collectives rather than to the athletic departments?
    Mr. Chun. Can I get the question repeated? It is--so 
positives and negatives of donating to collectives? Did I 
understand that?
    Mr. Dunn. So, yes, what are the effects--positive or 
negative--from the money--the boosters' money going to those 
collectives rather than the AD? And to the athletic department?
    Mr. Chun. Well, the positives, assuming that there is real 
work going on around the country, the--we want to do more for 
our student-athletes. Real NIL work we are 100 percent 
supportive of. It is what is going on with the inducements and 
the tampering that is the challenge, and that is where we need 
the help with Federal legislation, with transparency, with 
something that proves that there is real work, something that 
provides clarity for Title IX.
    Across many campuses, you can read it--you can read it 
almost daily in sports articles of coaches, administrators, 
assistant coaches involved with supporting and advocating for 
collectives. Are they representatives of the institution? Does 
that trigger Title IX? And also, we probably need something 
that takes into consideration international student-athletes.
    Mr. Dunn. I was also concerned about the revenue being 
diverted, and then, therefore, may not be available to 
distribute to the other sports.
    Mr. Chun. Well, yes, the collectives are a little bit 
different because those are going right to the student-
athletes. It is--as long as there is equity, and as long as 
there is real work, there's no issues. It is with the 
inducements and with the tampering, that is where all the 
challenges are coming and----
    Mr. Dunn. Well, thank you, Mr. Chun.
    I want to turn to Kaley, Kaley Mudge, and say it is great 
to have you here, a softball player at FSU. FSU is in my 
district and of course has received multiple honors over the 
years. They are very proud of you, Kaley.
    I wonder--it is my understanding that you came into FSU 
before the NIL laws took effect, and since then things have 
changed. Can you tell how your--tell us how your college 
experience has changed since NIL laws came out?
    Ms. Mudge. Yes. I--even with NIL coming into play, I was 
never one to play for the money. Being recruited, money wasn't 
an issue for me. I didn't care how much of a scholarship I got. 
I just wanted the opportunity to play college softball. And 
getting to have the experience for the past 4 years has been 
amazing, and it has been the best 4 years of my life for sure.
    But now, specifically with the collectives, I personally 
have had a very good experience with the FSU collective, but I 
do recognize and understand that there are collectives out 
there that are, you know, creating the recruiting inducements. 
And I think as a 15-year-old, 16-year-old, it is really hard to 
turn down that amount of money without the knowledge that they 
are given.
    So I am grateful that I didn't have that decision when I 
was back then, but even now with NIL it has never been about 
the money for me. It has just been about the experience.
    Mr. Dunn. So I think that is true. I have talked to a 
number of student-athletes, and I hear that story again and 
again, they don't want to be employees, and they really do love 
the game, and I thank you very much for that. Now let me just 
say, Go `Noles, you know, so that is--I have got to get my dig 
in at Georgia there, right?
    So, on March 1st, the NCAA named Charlie Baker as its 
president, and that spawned a renewed interest, obviously, in 
effective policymaking for the student-athletes.
    And, Ms. Heppel, I wonder if you find in the Patriot League 
student-athletes graduate with meaningful degrees and are 
expected to engage fully in the academic pursuits, and that 
they are afforded time and opportunity to do that. Do you think 
that happens pretty uniformly?
    Ms. Heppel. I do think it is the majority of the experience 
of student-athletes. I believe that there are student-athletes 
that want to commit 12 months a year to their sport to further 
their professional opportunities, and they should have that 
opportunity as well, but that the majority of student-athletes 
understand that life after college is going to be professional 
and career-oriented.
    Mr. Dunn. Thank you. Thank you very much.
    I yield back, Mr. Chairman.
    Mr. Bilirakis. Thank you. Thank you very much.
    And now I will recognize the gentlelady, Mrs. Trahan. 
Appreciate all the good information you have given us thus far. 
Thank you.
    Mrs. Trahan. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I am not from 
Florida, but I have a world of respect for everything you all 
do.
    Mr. Chun, I am going to start with you, and I am launching 
right into questions because my opening remarks were already 
given. But as athletic director at Washington State University, 
you are responsible for reporting the number of men and women 
athletes for Title IX compliance, correct?
    Mr. Chun. Yes.
    Mrs. Trahan. And the--you must be aware that last year an 
investigative report from USA Today found that your university 
overcounted your women's rowing roster by 21 athletes and 
counted eight male practice players as women's roster spots to 
show compliance with Title IX on paper.
    Mr. Chun. Yes.
    Mrs. Trahan. And it sounds like, just from your direct and 
truthful answers, that you understand that by overcounting or 
misrepresenting the number of women athletes at your 
university, that you are essentially depriving in this case 29 
women of the chance to continue their athletic career.
    Mr. Chun. Yes. Assuming those numbers are correct, yes.
    Mrs. Trahan. So I bring this up because many of my 
colleagues on the committee may not be aware that the 
Department of Education allows colleges to exploit loopholes, 
like overcounting women athletes, double or triple counting 
them, or even counting male athletes as women to comply with 
Title IX on paper.
    Of course, just because the Education Department allows it, 
it doesn't mean it is right to make college athletics less 
available to women athletes. And I bring this up not to put you 
on the spot, Mr. Chun, but we can't talk about NIL rights, 
particularly for women athletes, without talking about how some 
schools exploit loopholes that deprive women of the opportunity 
to play in college in the first place.
    It is for this reason that I introduced the Fair Play for 
Women Act with Congresswoman Adams and Senator Murphy to close 
these loopholes. And I would encourage my colleagues on the 
committee to join me in supporting legislation that not only 
strengthens NIL rights but closes these loopholes as well.
    I will switch gears, because I would like to talk about one 
of the biggest issues facing college athletics in the 
postamateurism landscape, and that is collectives. As some of 
my colleagues have rightly pointed out today, the emergence and 
embrace of NIL collectives has created a number of questions 
over the past year and a half.
    Mr. Chun, are you familiar with the Cougar Collective, the 
NIL collective associated with WASU?
    Mr. Chun. Yes.
    Mrs. Trahan. And do you or athletic department staff, 
including coaches, communicate directly with members of the 
Cougar Collective? And, if so, do they discuss potential 
recruits that a team may be hoping to land a commitment from?
    Mr. Chun. Not with me directly, and not to my knowledge 
with any of our coaches. Our interaction with them has been 
education. They have done compliance education with us. Really, 
we meet--our compliance staff probably meets with them at 
least--I think they have a standing meeting once a month, just 
to ensure compliance with the rules.
    We are fortunate our collective is filled with alums that 
care about the institute that are----
    Mrs. Trahan. Sure.
    Mr. Chun [continuing]. Really focused on following whatever 
rules exist. And we do not have an NIL law in the State of 
Washington.
    Mrs. Trahan. So I have--I think one of the things that we 
need to talk about when we are talking about these collectives 
are whether or not, you know, there are conversations about 
specific athletes in tandem with universities.
    Mr. Chun, is it your understanding or your belief that the 
Cougar Collective prioritizes women athletes at the--as equally 
as they do male athletes?
    Mr. Chun. I know they have had conversations. We do not 
have access to what exact deals are happening, but I know they 
have communicated to us that they are working to try to find 
opportunities for our women. They understand, you know, at our 
institution specifically, I mean, our women sports are 
performing at pretty spectacular levels.
    So they recognize the challenges that our women coaches 
have as well, but we do not--there is no--we don't have any 
clarity exactly on what the deals are.
    Mrs. Trahan. Mr. Stahl--Dr. Stahl, I am sorry--I am curious 
to hear your thoughts on this as well. Are you aware of active 
collusion between athletic departments and collectives? And 
would you say that, generally speaking, collectives tend to 
approach NIL arrangements with the goal of equally supporting 
men and women athletes?
    Dr. Stahl. I mean, it depends on what you mean by 
``collusion.'' I think one of the reasons I found the 
discussion somewhat odd today about collectives is what I know 
from around the country is athletic department heads, like Mr. 
Chun, are encouraging donors to donate money to collectives. It 
is a huge thing. It happens everywhere.
    And so, you know, to the extent that we would need some 
sort of NIL Federal law, like what exactly would they want said 
about collectives? Just the messaging is very unclear.
    So, in terms of collusion, I mean, that----
    Mrs. Trahan. Coordination.
    Dr. Stahl. Well, athletic director--I will put it very 
simply. Athletic directors around the country are absolutely 
encouraging donors to donate money to collectives. This happens 
everywhere.
    Mrs. Trahan. In addition to that, it would also be helpful 
as we consider where the boundaries of Title IX are if we are 
also having conversations about specific recruits and how those 
collectives are set up to recruits to--to recruit athletes, 
excuse me.
    Thank you. I know I am over my time, Mr. Chair. I yield 
back.
    Mr. Bilirakis. Thank you. Thank you so much.
    Now I will recognize Mrs. Lesko from the great State of 
Arizona. You are recognized for 5 minutes.
    Mrs. Lesko. Thank you all for being here. And I am from 
Arizona, so I am proud that the University of Arizona, Arizona 
State University, and Grand Canyon University all made the NCAA 
men's basketball tournaments this year.
    I have a question for Mr. Chun. Mr. Chun, we have talked 
about this a bit, but over 30 States have passed laws relating 
to name, image, and likeness rights. Some of these laws have 
been in effect for over 2 years. While the need for a uniform 
policy is understood, can you cite specific examples where a 
State was significantly advantaged or disadvantaged as compared 
to another State, and the impacts they have had on a student-
athlete monetizing their name, image, likeness?
    Mr. Chun. Well, I can--I can just cite our own State. 
Because we don't have a law, initially I thought that would be 
to our advantage and give us flexibility. But in all reality, 
we are governed by State ethics law, so it is really 
restrictive on comparatively what other States are doing.
    So, in the State of Washington, really they are limited to 
education, but we can't steer our student-athletes towards 
specific deals or work with collectives, as it has been 
legalized in some other States.
    Mrs. Lesko. And, Ms. Mudge, speaking--what are some of the 
biggest concerns among student-athletes regarding NIL? And how 
can Federal legislation mitigate them?
    Ms. Mudge. I think for the Federal legislation it would 
just be helpful to be on the same page. I know there is still a 
lot of information that we can learn about. NIL, I would say 
one of the biggest concerns is just education and knowledge of 
what NIL is, how can we use it to our advantage.
    I know for me, going into the NIL space, I was very nervous 
my first couple of deals, because the last thing I want to do 
is put my eligibility in question. And my compliance 
department, my athletic department, has been very helpful in 
teaching me and educating me, but I think across the board it 
would help to have more education federally with all of the 
schools in our Nation, just to teach us what NIL is, how to 
read contracts, how to see a good deal from a bad deal. I feel 
like there's a lot of people that could take advantage of how 
young we, as student-athletes and college student-athletes, 
are.
    So I think just being able to have legislation, so that we 
are on the same page and we do have a level playing field no 
matter what State that you are in, and just having the 
education to learn more.
    Mrs. Lesko. Thank you very much.
    Mr. Chun, it is my understanding that NIL collective can 
offer student NIL deals before they commit or show up on 
campus. First of all, is that correct?
    Mr. Chun. Not based on NCAA rules, but probably different 
by the--part of the issue with the patchwork of State laws.
    Mrs. Lesko. And so my question is, how do we ensure that 
NIL deals aren't being used to persuade students to pick 
certain schools?
    Mr. Chun. That is why we need a Federal standard.
    Mrs. Lesko. Some people have proposed ideas like making 
student-athletes employees of the university. How could this 
hurt smaller sports in smaller universities? And will some 
universities choose to get rid of intercollegiate sports 
programs altogether?
    Mr. Chun. I don't know how you differentiate one sport from 
the other relative to the employment. So if we are--I don't--
like I stated earlier, the inputs are the same. The commitment, 
the sacrifice, all the things that go into being a student-
athlete are no different for a softball player or volleyball 
player, football player, basketball player. No difference 
between our men's and women's basketball programs.
    I don't know how you cite one as employees and the other 
one not. So it is just fundamentally flawed there, and I also 
don't--the notion of underperformance leads to firing just is 
counter to college athletics. It is about academics. It is 
about earning that degree. It is the immeasurable impact 
college athletics has.
    Mrs. Lesko. Mr. Stahl, you had mentioned along the way in 
some of your testimony about health coverage for student-
athletes. And I just was wondering if you would expand upon 
what you are looking for. Is it lifetime health coverage? What 
are you asking the universities to pay for?
    Dr. Stahl. I am asking them primarily to negotiate about 
what is appropriate, right? So we don't--we are not coming into 
this and saying it has got to be X, Y, and Z. I certainly have 
ideas. Our members have ideas. I think, you know, back to the 
main point of my testimony, I think that the problems of the 
industry are enormously solvable by those within the industry, 
including the players through our independent players 
associations.
    And so this is one of the things we would like to sit down 
and talk with Mr. Chun about or, you know, we could have it at 
an institutional level, a conference level, what have you. I 
think this is how you get to actual workable solutions. It is 
not through Federal legislation written by people who are not 
involved in the industry.
    Mrs. Lesko. Thank you, and I yield back.
    Mr. Bilirakis. Thank you. I now will recognize the 
gentleman from Georgia, Mr. Allen, please, for 5 minutes.
    Mr. Allen. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I want to thank all of 
our witnesses for being here today. This is a very complex 
issue, and it--you know, college sports is a very special and 
particularly American tradition.
    And, as an alumni, I know I enjoy college sports, and I 
enjoyed playing in high school. Played football and basketball 
and baseball, and--but when I got to college, my abilities were 
better served to get in the workforce. And so I was able to get 
a job and put my way through college.
    However, my roommate was a walk-on, and he didn't enjoy the 
same opportunity. He was--I mean, even back then, it was full-
time. I mean, he couldn't get--he couldn't get a job. So, 
obviously, his situation was compromised. I mean, you know, 
because, I mean, where are you going to get the--you know, you 
want to enjoy the college experience, but then again, you know, 
and you don't want to be sitting there with a family worried 
about how you are going to feed them.
    So I agree something has to be done here, because, you 
know, college football, you play it because you love it, or 
basketball or baseball or women's softball. I mean, you have 
said, ``The reason that I am doing this is because this is what 
I want to do.''
    But, at the same time, you know, it is--even in high school 
today--I mean, I have got 14 grandchildren, and I go to their 
sporting events, and they are full-time. I mean, it is 
incredible what sports--it has just taken over. And you get on 
a travel team, and you are all over the place. It is amazing. I 
don't know how these parents do it today.
    But so, you know, you have asked Congress to solve this 
problem, because you are going across State lines. OK. And when 
you are going across State lines, you have got varying laws in 
States. I mean, what is going to keep an athlete who travels 
over to--from Georgia to Alabama to play football, and there is 
a different deal over here? So I agree there has got to be 
some--there have got to be some guardrails here.
    Mr. Chun, how many athletes in your program since NIL was 
originated have entered the transfer portal to improve their 
NIL opportunity?
    Mr. Chun. That is a very good question. That I could not 
give you an exact number because it would just be based on 
rumors.
    Mr. Allen. Right.
    Mr. Chun. But----
    Mr. Allen. But it happens.
    Mr. Chun. It happens. And it is the reality. I mean, we are 
seeing it all across men's basketball right now with entering 
the portal, and you can see the list--go on social media and 
see the listing of schools that are so-and-so contacting X 
person, and--but it is the reality of the world we are in right 
now.
    Mr. Allen. Right. You mentioned that currently there is a 
team in the NCAA basketball that the coach is tampering. What 
do you mean by ``tampering''?
    Mr. Chun. So what I read--and, well, what was--what was 
articulated in the story was during--throughout their 
tournament, the run for Florida Atlantic, the coach articulated 
that third parties----
    Mr. Allen. Right.
    Mr. Chun [continuing]. Were reaching out to his current 
athletes--and they play this Saturday in their pursuit for a 
national championship--about going to their schools. That is 
tampering.
    Mr. Allen. Really. Wow.
    Mr. Chun. We have--and it is probably at its lowest levels 
or worst levels----
    Mr. Allen. Right.
    Mr. Chun [continuing]. But yes.
    Mr. Allen. And, as I understand it, on the NILs and where 
this money is coming from, it is coming from alumni primarily, 
isn't it? Is that where the colleges are getting the----
    Mr. Chun. The collectives.
    Mr. Allen. The collectives----
    Mr. Chun. But----
    Mr. Allen. Yes.
    Mr. Chun [continuing]. There's companies involved. I mean, 
it is a blend of true NIL, and if it is a recruiting----
    Mr. Allen. So, for example, if you had alumni 
participating, their business participating in this, they 
wouldn't be apt to want that money to go to--you know, as far 
as parity is concerned. In other words, if they are doing it 
for college football, that is where they want that money to go. 
Would that--could they--can they decide or direct the money 
that they put in the NIL to go to one specific sport or one 
specific college?
    Mr. Chun. Well, I think if it is true NIL, it is--you know, 
we are not--I would not suggest limiting anything for student-
athletes. That is true NIL, that is endorsement opportunities, 
that is--that they are paying for actual real work. It is----
    Mr. Allen. Right.
    Mr. Chun. If it is inducement or recruiting tool, 
tampering, that is where the issues come into play.
    Mr. Allen. And that, Dr. Abdullah, is what would be 
affecting you is that, you know, these collectives would then--
in order for parity to exist, equity to exist, these 
collectives would then have to funnel so much money to athletes 
in our Division I, II, and HBCU schools as well.
    Dr. Abdullah. Yes. It would make it difficult to have 
parity. But I think that 70 percent of my kids are Pell 
eligible, and so for me and for my kids it is about the--it is 
about their ability to get funds so they can go to school and 
maybe have possibly the biggest payday that they can have. And 
so I firmly am behind them trying to do the best that----
    Mr. Allen. Right.
    Dr. Abdullah [continuing]. We can.
    Mr. Allen. And I agree. Thank you.
    I yield back, Mr. Chairman.
    Mr. Bilirakis. Thank you. Excellent questions, by the way.
    All right. Mrs. Harshbarger, you are recognized for 5 
minutes.
    Mrs. Harshbarger. OK. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    Thank you all for being here. I am going to tell you some 
things that I have learned from talking to different schools, 
and you correct me if I am wrong, and then I will give you some 
questions. OK? How about that?
    You know, I want to talk about portals. I want to talk 
about agents. And then I want to hit the collectives. I mean, I 
don't really want to hit them. I just want to see if what I 
have learned is true.
    The portals. There's no contracts. These athletes are free 
agents every year. Am I correct? You can play for a year, then 
go into the portal, see if you can get more money, and then I 
guess stay with the school that you were planning if you don't 
get more money? Is that correct? Yes or no. Or is it true? Ms. 
Heppel, maybe you know.
    Ms. Heppel. I am looking down to the left for--you know, 
the transfer portal is the means by which student-athletes are 
able to let other schools know that they are interested in 
transferring.
    Mrs. Harshbarger. So if a student goes through that 
portal--and this is what I have come to the understanding--if 
they have a scholarship on the table and they go through the 
portal, from what I am understanding, is 35 to 40 percent of 
these student-athletes will lose their scholarship if they are 
not picked up in the portal. Am I correct?
    Ms. Heppel. That is a possible outcome----
    Mrs. Harshbarger. Yes.
    Ms. Heppel [continuing]. When they inform their current 
school----
    Mrs. Harshbarger. Absolutely.
    Ms. Heppel [continuing]. That they are looking elsewhere. 
Yes.
    Mrs. Harshbarger. All right. That is a bad thing. You know, 
and I am all for like a revenue-sharing model, and I think that 
is what it was intended to be.
    Let's go to these agents or so-called agents that are 
recruiting young women like you, and some of these young men. 
You know, I don't even know what the criteria is for these 
agents, and, you know, you get a 3 to 4 to 5 percent recruiting 
fee, but then I have heard that some of these agents will 
garner up to 80 percent of that student's income, which is 
pathetic. There is no regulation there.
    And I will put it to you this way. Based on what I have 
seen over the last couple of years, it is clear that the 
courts, nor the States, can establish uniform rules. Therefore, 
you are sitting in front of Congress, probably not where you 
want to be.
    But something has to be done. What do you think about the 
revenue-sharing model for these schools per sport? And I 
understand on a first-sports basis football, you wouldn't be 
able to do that. Am I correct?
    Ms. Heppel. Not within the Patriot League.
    Mrs. Harshbarger. Yes.
    Ms. Heppel. There is not revenue generated from any of the 
individual sport programs within the league.
    Mrs. Harshbarger. And I have heard that these agents should 
be maybe in a marketing capacity where a certain percentage is 
what they get. But correct me if I am wrong, this, too, I 
understand that you have got these collectives that are--you 
know, 60 percent of their NIL payments come from wealthy 
donors, and that is not sustainable. If you have one donor that 
gives 8 to 10 million, they are not going to do that every 
year.
    But now I understand that schools are allowed to help them 
fund raise. Is that correct? And that happened in October of 
last year? Do you all know about that?
    Ms. Heppel. As of this moment in time, I am not aware of 
any collectives within the Patriot League. So I would----
    Mrs. Harshbarger. OK.
    Ms. Heppel [continuing]. Be hard-pressed to speak to----
    Mrs. Harshbarger. OK. Because--I won't blame the schools, 
but I was told that now they are using athletic associate 
foundations to recruit, because sometimes these donors go out 
and recruit athletes that the school really didn't want to 
recruit, and they are stuck with them.
    So now, through these foundations, the schools can have 
some input on who they want them to go after. So that is 
something to be looking for.
    You know, there are just a lot of unknowns here. I know 
there's something else on here that I--I just needed 
clarification about this, because if we need a standardized--if 
we need to do standardized legislation, that is what we are 
here to do. But I have to have all of the facts, and I have to 
have correct facts and not hearsay in order to do that.
    What do you think Congress should do? What about the 
revenue-sharing models with some of these companies and 
corporations? What is your opinion? We can just go down the 
line.
    Ms. Heppel. You know, I think as I have read that revenue 
sharing, to me anything that opens the door toward an employee 
status we need to be cautious, very cautious about.
    Dr. Abdullah. I think we need to make sure that the 
athletes that are involved in these revenue-generating sports 
and generating a lot of revenue, that they have the opportunity 
to find out what their value is and to get funds for that 
value.
    Mrs. Harshbarger. Absolutely.
    Mr. Burton. I am against revenue sharing from like--in the 
sense of employee or employment, because that is where, in my 
opinion, amateurism becomes professionalism.
    Mrs. Harshbarger. Yes.
    Ms. Mudge. As an Olympic sport athlete, I am also against 
revenue sharing. Just I want future softball players, future 
college athletes, to have the same experience that I did, and 
it is scary to think that the funds that are used to fund 
softball could be taken away and that Olympic sports wouldn't 
be a thing anymore. So, yes.
    Mr. Chun. I would agree. I don't--I don't see if--how 
this--how an employment model works across all the sports that 
are sponsored across the NCAA.
    Dr. Stahl. We take the position in our platform: Percentage 
of the big money and media rights revenue contracts for the 
players whose name, image, and likeness is used in that media, 
there is going to be billions of new dollars in the coming 2 
years, and the players whose--who generate that wealth should 
be able to share in it.
    Mr. Bilirakis. OK. Thank you. Thank you very much.
    The gentlelady yields back.
    Mrs. Harshbarger. I yield back.
    Mr. Bilirakis. Now I will recognize the gentleman from 
California, Mr. Cardenas, for 5 minutes.
    Mr. Cardenas. Thank you very much. Appreciate Chairman 
Bilirakis, and also Ranking Member Schakowsky, for holding this 
hearing. And thank you for allowing me to waive on to the 
committee so that I can get involved in this discussion before 
the American people, who hopefully are watching.
    And this topic is very important, and I am glad that we are 
having this discussion, though my colleagues have pointed out 
the range of issues confronting student-athletes today goes 
well beyond NIL concerns. In 2021, the NCAA brought in $1.15 
billion in revenue--that is with a B. The product that they 
garnered this money from comes from young adults who put their 
bodies on the line to bring to viewers across the country and 
across the world what generates all of this money.
    And, therefore, it goes--should it go anywhere else? 
Absolutely, I think that the people who are actually putting 
their bodies on the line, putting their--in some cases putting 
their life on the line, should be able to benefit from all of 
this revenue and what actually creates the revenue.
    Mr. Chun, could--would collegiate athletes be better 
protected if they were part of a union?
    Mr. Chun. I know the student-athletes at Washington State, 
the benefits and services that they are provided, along with 
being a part of the Pac-12, provide a litany of academic 
support, strength and conditioning support, and----
    Mr. Cardenas. So are they better off now that they have 
that opportunity?
    Mr. Chun. You would--I would need a point of reference on 
what----
    Mr. Cardenas. OK.
    Mr. Chun [continuing]. ``Better off'' means.
    Mr. Cardenas. Thank you.
    Mr. Chun. Yes.
    Mr. Cardenas. Mr. Stahl, do you agree that they are better 
off today than they were before they had that opportunity?
    Dr. Stahl. Before they had what opportunity, sir?
    Mr. Cardenas. The opportunity to have representation.
    Dr. Stahl. Well, we are still in that middle space where 
that is what we are trying to provide. We are trying to provide 
representation. And for college athletes who do want to attempt 
to unionize, we want to be there to help facilitate that.
    And to answer your first basic question: Yes, absolutely. 
Anyone who is, you know, going to be a member of a union is 
going to have far more workplace protections than someone who 
isn't.
    Mr. Cardenas. So are there people on the campus who are 
actually members of unions who actually go to work there every 
day?
    Dr. Stahl. Oh, absolutely. Yes. I mean, the universities 
bargain with unions across--every university in this country 
bargains with unions, yes.
    Mr. Cardenas. And those employees who are on that 
university who go to work, whether they teach or whether they 
are janitors or what have you, who are members of unions, are 
they better off now that they have representation than before 
they had representation?
    Dr. Stahl. A hundred percent.
    Mr. Cardenas. Well, I would venture to believe that 
students would benefit as well if they had representation in 
any environment on any campus, especially when they are the 
ones at the core of generating the revenue, not just the 
revenue that I just spoke of--that was just the NCAA's revenue 
in 1 year--much less the revenue that is actually generated in 
other aspects as well.
    One of the things that I would like to point out is that 
the stated mission of these unions is to empower individuals to 
create a strong collective voice and to achieve and maintain 
excellent wages and benefits and working conditions.
    So, Mr. Stahl, would collegiate athletes be able to have 
better representation, be in better situations? And what is the 
biggest obstacle to collegiate athletes organizing today?
    Dr. Stahl. Fear of retaliation. I mean, we saw this at Penn 
State this past summer. I think there is----
    Mr. Cardenas. What did that retaliation look like?
    Dr. Stahl. Well, I think there is just an issue of there 
is--within college football--again, I am only going to speak to 
our members. I am only going to speak for----
    Mr. Cardenas. Sure.
    Mr. Stahl [continuing]. College football.
    Mr. Cardenas. Sure. Please.
    Dr. Stahl. Yes. I think within college football you have 
ample opportunities for retaliation against players who would 
want to engage in organizing efforts, either towards the union 
or towards something else, right? Some sort of voluntary 
chapter within a players association.
    There are so many men who are on these teams, right? If you 
engage in this type of organizing effort, retaliation can take 
the form of something you are just not even going to notice, 
right? Loss of playing time, right?
    And so, yes, I do think that is my biggest fear for sure.
    Mr. Cardenas. Thank you. I have an article here written by 
Notre Dame University President John Jenkins who discusses some 
of the support that Notre Dame gives voluntarily on their own, 
their internal policy towards student-athletes. Notre Dame 
provides 10 years of coverage for its athletes after an injury 
occurs and guarantees that student-athletes will keep their 
scholarship regardless of performance on the field or injury.
    I would like to submit this for the record, Mr. Chairman, 
if----
    Mr. Bilirakis. Without objection, so ordered.
    [The information appears at the conclusion of the hearing.]
    Mr. Cardenas. OK. Thank you so much.
    Obviously, Notre Dame is a large and well-funded 
institution. Dr. Abdullah, what sort of support would you need 
from the NCAA in order to provide similar protections for your 
athletes at your school or at a school the size of Virginia 
State?
    Dr. Abdullah. The easy answer is we would need additional 
revenue to be able to provide all of those.
    Mr. Cardenas. OK. Does it sound like an organization that 
pulls in over $1 billion a year might, if they choose to, be 
able to provide that kind of support, so you could meet them 
halfway maybe and make it happen?
    Dr. Abdullah. I imagine that they would, sir.
    Mr. Cardenas. OK. Thank you so much.
    I yield back the balance of my time.
    Mr. Bilirakis. Thank you. I thank the gentleman.
    I now recognize the lady that represents Gainesville, 
Florida, home of the University of Florida Fighting Gators. You 
are recognized for 5 minutes, ma'am.
    Mrs. Cammack. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And, as always, it 
is great to be a Florida Gator. Trey knows what we are talking 
about. Sorry, FSU, I know you hate that. But this is a great 
day. Regardless, I think we are going to see some great 
bipartisan work done in the way of addressing this issue that I 
think should have been addressed a while ago. I think the cat 
is a little bit out of the bag.
    Back in 2021 when States started putting the patchwork 
framework together, it kind of made a bit of a mess for us on 
this side of it, but we are here now.
    So I am going to start with you, Ms. Mudge. Should NIL 
contracts be permitted when a student-athlete sport is in 
season? Or should there be a balanced approach in how NIL rules 
are applied when a student-athlete is in or out of season?
    Ms. Mudge. Yes. That is a great question.
    Mrs. Cammack. Thank you. It is a Gator question.
    Ms. Mudge. I would say that NIL contracts should be 
permitted in season. I think it is a very individualistic 
approach, as I have teammates that don't want to benefit from 
NIL and don't want to pursue certain opportunities, and I have 
teammates that do. And I think that is the freedom of NIL, is 
that we can choose.
    I personally don't feel too stressed during season to go 
forward with NIL contracts. And if I do, the companies that I 
have been able to talk with have been very, very lenient and 
very helpful in understanding my schedule. So I personally 
don't think that there should be certain times when NIL can and 
can't happen for athletes, just because of the freedom that we 
have the control to choose if we want to do a deal or not.
    Mrs. Cammack. Thank you.
    Mr. Burton, same question to you.
    Mr. Burton. No, not at all. I mean, what happens if I 
score, you know, five or six touchdowns in the game, you know, 
and the next day someone wants to give me an NIL deal. So I 
don't think--by no means do I think there should be a limit on 
when or how or anything like that on NIL. Make as much--the 
players should be able to make as much money as they possibly 
can from that standpoint.
    Mrs. Cammack. OK. Thank you.
    Mr. Abdullah, same question to you from the university 
perspective.
    Dr. Abdullah. Excuse me, ma'am. Would you mind repeating 
the question?
    Mrs. Cammack. Should student-athletes be able to engage in 
NIL deals during their season or not?
    Dr. Abdullah. I believe so. I believe that student-athletes 
shouldn't have any restrictions on their ability to generate 
NIL dollars.
    Mrs. Cammack. OK. Excellent.
    Mr. Chun, you described your extensive work with several of 
the NCAA committees, including the Transformation Committee. 
You briefly touch on the issues with a potential employer-
employee situation regarding the student-athletes. And I wanted 
to know, did you guys touch on any of the revenue-sharing 
models, the impact that that would have, if it were applied to 
all sports? If so, did you simulate what specific actions, if 
any, athletic departments would take in order to comply with 
the type of model?
    Mr. Chun. We did not.
    Mrs. Cammack. Wow, that was the shortest answer ever. All 
right. Thanks.
    This one is for you, Ms. Heppel, and also to you, Mr. Chun. 
Should there be an office or a clearinghouse specifically 
within either schools, conferences, or the NCAA to review and 
validate companies or individuals, not necessarily contract 
details, but those that seek to partner with student-athletes 
for an NIL deal?
    We will start with you, Ms. Heppel.
    Ms. Heppel. I think that is a great question, and I think 
it is something I have thought a lot about. I think the 
importance of ensuring student-athletes understand what their 
fair market value is and ensuring that they are entering into 
legitimate deals are the two paramount issues.
    Mrs. Cammack. Absolutely. Mr. Chun?
    Mr. Chun. Nothing to add. I agree with that. The clarity 
that student-athletes would get from understanding the market--
and I think someone mentioned earlier just seeing what also is 
appropriate to have with your attorneys or agents that are 
representing you from a commission standpoint, those are 
critical factors for our student-athletes.
    Mrs. Cammack. Excellent. Going back to you, Ms. Heppel, 
according to the NCAA, over 20,000 international students 
compete in collegiate athletics. These athletes are precluded 
from engaging in NIL activities because of what that would mean 
for their visa status and employment status.
    What steps can Congress take to allow for these athletes to 
take advantage of the same types of opportunities that are 
available to their peers? And what would we expect the impact 
to be on the athletic programs within the universities?
    Ms. Heppel. I--you know, I am not an immigration lawyer, 
and I think that is where some of this has been hung up, from a 
pure--as a commissioner of an athletics conference, with 
schools that recruit nationally and internationally, I don't 
differentiate, and we don't differentiate on our campuses. All 
student-athletes should ideally have access to NIL 
opportunities.
    Mrs. Cammack. From the nodding of everyone's heads, I feel 
like everyone is in agreement on that. All right. Excellent.
    And since I have got--well, I am 7 seconds over. With that, 
I guess I--Mr. Chairman, I yield back, and of course, go 
Gators.
    Mr. Bilirakis. Go Gators.
    All right. Next we have Mr. Fulcher from the great State of 
Idaho. Thank you. I recognize you for 5 minutes.
    Mr. Fulcher. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Just a little bit ago 
I told my good friend from Georgia I wish I knew a good 
congressman that would fix a lot of this stuff. But maybe we 
are short on those too.
    I wanted to start with Ms. Mudge, and you said you are 
about to graduate, as I recall. So look back at the day you 
enrolled, just in your mind, and tell me if there is anything 
that you wish you would have known then that you know now about 
NIL.
    Ms. Mudge. That is a great question. I would say I wish I 
knew more back then. I wish that there would have been more 
Federal legislation, just because I feel like the past 2 years, 
even though I have been able to capitalize on my NIL, it has 
been very confusing and very just hard to distinguish what 
deals I can do, what I can't do.
    I am very grateful for my athletic department and 
compliance department for seeing me through those tough times, 
but I wish that back then I would have been able to have more 
clear-cut rules of what I could and couldn't do. And I remember 
when NIL came into play, like I had questions as to why someone 
in Oklahoma or North Carolina could do things that I couldn't 
as an NIL athlete. And just the confusion of having different 
State laws for NIL was really hard for me as a student-athlete, 
as I am sure I can speak for most student-athletes as well.
    So I do wish that even though that--I can't turn back time 
that we could pass Federal legislation and Federal guidelines 
soon, just to create just a level playing field and no more 
sense of confusion.
    Mr. Fulcher. Thank you for that.
    Mr. Burton, you are in a different place in your life. You 
have gone through a professional career as well now. But same 
question. Reflect back before you enrolled in college, and can 
you address that as well, please, what you wish you would have 
known then that you do now?
    Mr. Burton. Well, I would say 100 percent finances. My 
mom--single mom, didn't have much money, grew up with, you 
know, not much, was really thankful for support from family all 
across the country, and they provided, you know, a lot for us.
    So finances--like, for example, I remember when I got to 
Philadelphia I was an undrafted free agent. I signed a $10,000 
signing bonus, and they gave me 7,500 bucks. And I said, ``You 
said 10,000, not 7,500. Where did the rest of the money go?'' 
And then they explained taxes to me.
    So just, you know, financial literacy. I think now--now 
having money, it is way more important, and I pay way more 
attention than I did before when I didn't have money.
    Mr. Fulcher. Thank you for that. And we know taxes here.
    Shifting gears a little bit, Mr. Abdullah, you referenced 
something, but not very deep. I would like to go just a little 
bit deeper. It has to do with agents. How do you protect your 
student-athletes from perhaps agents or agent access that may 
not have their best interests in mind? What are some of the 
things you do?
    Dr. Abdullah. You know, what we do at Virginia State is 
provide critical education, have them actually meet with agents 
on campus and talk about what it means to have a positive 
relationship.
    But I think the real key to making sure across the board 
that student-athletes are protected is to provide a level of 
transparency and interactions--and I think it is a question 
that Ms. Heppel answered just a minute ago--that the more 
transparency that we have across the board where people 
understand the deals that are happening, I think the student-
athletes and the young people can successfully negotiate and 
use the right representation to get that done.
    I think the more that we keep things in the dark and keep 
them opaque, I think, is ripe for exploitation of athletes.
    Mr. Fulcher. Thank you for that.
    Mr. Chun, can you address that question? Agents, how do you 
deal with that? Maybe the ones who are not so interested in the 
well-being of your student-athletes.
    Mr. Chun. I agree wholeheartedly with what was said. We 
need transparency in the marketplace. We ultimately--and we 
need to allow our student-athletes all the information 
necessary as they make decisions. We can educate as much as we 
want, and we are no different than probably all the schools 
represented here where we go to great lengths to make sure our 
student-athletes understand all of the points that go into 
being in this NIL marketplace.
    But at the end of the day, they do need some transparency 
to understand what is--what is out there in the marketplace.
    Mr. Fulcher. Ms. Heppel, comment? Quickly.
    Ms. Heppel. I completely agree with the prior comments.
    Mr. Fulcher. All right. Mr. Chairman, I yield back. Thank 
you.
    Mr. Bilirakis. Thank you very much. Appreciate it, and the 
gentleman yields back.
    I now recognize the gentleman from Georgia, probably the 
number one Georgia----
    Mr. Carter. How did you know I was from Georgia?
    Mr. Bilirakis [continuing]. Bulldog----
    [Laughter.]
    Mr. Bilirakis. Yes. How did I know? OK. Well, I have got to 
be fair. I have got to be fair.
    Mr. Carter. Sorry.
    Mr. Bilirakis. Anyway, national champion--two-time national 
championships, back to back, from the University of Georgia----
    Mr. Carter. Take as much time as you want.
    Mr. Bilirakis [continuing]. Mr. Carter.
    Mr. Carter. Mr. Chairman, take as much----
    Mr. Bilirakis. All right.
    Mr. Carter [continuing]. Time as you want.
    Mr. Bilirakis. Thank you. That hurt, but I--it pained me to 
say it, but----
    Mr. Carter. Well----
    Mr. Bilirakis [continuing]. I had to say it.
    Mrs. Cammack. I am going to sit here the whole time.
    [Laughter.]
    Mr. Carter. Thank you all for being here. We are obviously 
very concerned. And thank you, Mr. Chairman, for this hearing 
and for your interest in what I consider to be very, very 
important--look, obviously, I love the University of Georgia. I 
graduated from there in 1980. We won the national championship 
that year. We have won back to back. It--you know, I am one of 
those, just like you, we all love college athletics.
    That is why we are so concerned about this, because we 
don't want to see it ruined. We get it. We understand that--it 
was even discussed back when I was in school way back then 
about athletes being compensated. And I get it, and I 
understand that, but we want it to be done in the right way.
    And certainly I know during this hearing we have had some 
great questions, and they brought up the California's College 
Athlete Protection Act, and I know that that potentially--and, 
full disclosure, I have had the opportunity to discuss, you 
know, the situation with some of the--some of my friends at the 
University of Georgia in administration.
    And that is one thing that they are really concerned about, 
is if something like this were to go to into--into effect, the 
impact that it would have on some of the other sports. They 
offer--we offer 21 sports at the University of Georgia, and 
we--and they are all very important to our school, and we want 
to make sure that they continue on.
    Dr. Abdullah, can you tell me if your State--if Virginia, 
where I have grandbabies, by the way, if Virginia followed the 
California bill, what do you think the impact would be on those 
other athletic programs? And, listen, they live in 
Charlottesville, and they go to UVA athletics all the time and 
enjoy it.
    Dr. Abdullah. If I am being honest, sir, I don't--I don't 
entirely know, because those--the impact of that level of 
revenue sharing is predominantly known by the Power Five 
schools, the larger schools. At Virginia State University, we 
are--we are all student-fee driven, and athletics is an 
extracurricular activity.
    And if your grandbabies would love to come to Virginia 
State, we would gladly recruit them to VSU
    Mr. Carter. Thank you.
    Ms. Mudge, what about you? Do you have any comment on that?
    Ms. Mudge. Yes. I think I am just very grateful for the 
experience that I have had the past 4 years. And I am not an 
expert on everything that is happening outside of, you know, my 
little square of Tallahassee, but hearing about possible 
revenue-sharing models that could take funds and divert funds 
away from Olympic sports over to football, men's basketball, to 
male sports, would be severely detrimental to Olympic sports.
    And I just couldn't imagine what my life would be without 
Florida State softball the past 4 years and the relationships I 
have made, and the access to education that I have been able to 
build, and just everything that I have been able to do the past 
4 years. So----
    Mr. Carter. That is why this is so very important to us. 
Thank you for that testimony. That is spot on. I mean, it----
    Ms. Mudge. Thank you.
    Mr. Carter [continuing]. Changed your life, right?
    Ms. Mudge. Yes. It changed my life. I wouldn't be who I am 
today without Florida State.
    Mr. Carter. Absolutely. Thank you for that.
    Mr. Burton, I am sorry you had to play at the University of 
Florida, but--and----
    Mr. Bilirakis. I object to that.
    [Laughter.]
    Mr. Carter. Seriously, I want to follow up on what my good 
friend from North Dakota discussed about the transfer portal 
and--because that is, you know, that is a concern, too. I mean, 
wow. It is--so much has changed, and, you know, change is OK, 
but we have just got to make sure we are not--we are not 
hurting it.
    And that is one thing--I am very concerned about reports, 
about the way the transfer rule changes coincided with the 
release of the NCAA NIL policy. I mean, what--how do you feel 
about that?
    Mr. Burton. Oh, I am not familiar with the policy. What is 
the policy? Like what----
    Mr. Carter. Well, it led to an environment where, you know, 
I mean, are they--are they trying--is it pay-for-play? I mean, 
that is what I keep hearing.
    Mr. Burton. Yes.
    Mr. Carter. I don't know. I am just asking.
    Mr. Burton. Well, I mean, I think the transfer portal and 
NIL are completely separate conversations. But somehow they are 
getting blended now, just because there is--they are both 
possible. Back then, obviously they weren't possible.
    You know, I am--I am of the understanding that money is 
being thrown at recruits, high school and transfer portal in a 
way, and that is why I think we need to have legislation and 
laws on what is available to be used for transfer portal and 
what is not, and just clear boundaries I think is kind of what 
everybody is asking for right now.
    Mr. Carter. Good. Good. Well, again, obviously, I love a 
lot--I love college athletics. Let me tell you, I was at the 
University of Georgia. I got to see John McEnroe play John 
Sadri in tennis. What a--I still remember it. Sadri had 13 
aces, and McEnroe still beat him two and two, beat him like a 
drum.
    And I don't want to see that ruined. I don't want to see it 
go away. It means so much to so many of us. Thank you all, and 
thank you again for----
    Mr. Bilirakis. Buddy, I will give you some more time if you 
want it. We are waiting for Pfluger.
    Mr. Carter. Yes. I will take more time----
    Mr. Bilirakis. All right. Go ahead.
    Mr. Carter [continuing]. What else----
    Mr. Bilirakis. Go ahead.
    Mr. Carter [continuing]. I witnessed in college.
    Mr. Bilirakis. Don't say anything against the Gators 
anymore.
    Mr. Carter. No, I am not. I am not.
    Let me see what I have got. He is here now, so I will--I 
will yield back.
    Mr. Bilirakis. The gentleman yields back.
    Mr. Carter. But one--one last thing.
    Mr. Bilirakis. OK. Go ahead.
    Mr. Carter. One last thing: Go Dawgs.
    Mr. Bilirakis. All right. Very good.
    All right. Now I will recognize the gentleman from Texas, 
Mr. Pfluger, for 5 minutes.
    Mr. Pfluger. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I appreciate it. I 
know some of us have popped in and out a little bit, but we 
appreciate all of you being here.
    And I think talking about some of these important issues, I 
was a student-athlete at the Air Force Academy, and obviously 
it brings a little bit different, you know, considerations to 
it.
    But I will start with Ms. Heppel. As commissioner of the 
Patriot League, you know, talk to me about what the service 
academy community is looking at when it comes to the guardrails 
that may be in place, and how it differs from maybe other 
institutions.
    Ms. Heppel. Thank you. You know, in the conversations with 
the folks at Army and Navy, I think, you know, there is an 
understanding as--that the Federal employee regulations are 
very different. I think they would appreciate the opportunities 
for their student-athletes that are similar to the 
opportunities that exist outside the service academies.
    On the other hand, young people that choose to attend one 
of the service academies are looking for a very different type 
of collegiate experience and have different goals, as you know. 
So it is--it is a unique perspective, very appreciative of what 
they bring to the table in the Patriot League and their 
perspective.
    Mr. Pfluger. Well, thank you for that, and I think that is 
right. You know, Mr. Chun, I will go to you. In part of your 
testimony, it was interesting--and I am interested to hear your 
thoughts on the revenue sharing, and, you know, using 
California's model, that would do to Ms. Mudge and what that 
would do to Olympic sports if we had the revenue sharing.
    And I think traditionally--correct me if I am wrong--but 
most of the revenue is going to come from football and men's 
and women's basketball, and that is kind of top three. So what 
does it do to the Olympic sports and women's sports in 
particular?
    Mr. Chun. Well, I will answer that from two different 
angles. One, it would be what I had spoke about before. It is 
the--it is the flaw in our model that two sports do drive on 
most campuses--some one--the revenue to run an athletic 
program, and are also governed by equity in Title IX.
    So it is--so it provides opportunities for broad-based 
programming. Also, as a member of the Pac-12, obviously, we are 
paying attention to what is going on in California, but it is 
another example of another patchwork State law that is going to 
impact how we--how we manage college athletics not only on the 
west coast and our conference, but it will impact other 
institutions in the NCAA.
    Mr. Pfluger. Ms. Mudge, your thoughts on that.
    Ms. Mudge. Yes. Just like I stated earlier, I am grateful. 
Florida State has been the best 4 years of my life. And just 
with the revenue-sharing model in California, it is very scary 
to think that athletes like me, future college athletes like 
me, won't get the experience if that model is--if that model 
comes into play.
    And I know that the funds come mainly from football and 
men's basketball, but I wouldn't trade my experience for 
anything. And I am grateful for the 4 years that I have gotten, 
and just all of the relationships I have made, everything that 
I have learned academically, athletically, as a person, 
everything that I have been able to learn in my 4 years, I 
wouldn't have learned if I didn't come in as a college athlete. 
And so that opportunity has been one of the best opportunities 
of my life.
    Mr. Pfluger. Thank you.
    Mr. Burton?
    Mr. Burton. Yes. I share the same thoughts from the 
employment standpoint, though I do think Dr. Stahl does bring 
up an interesting point in the sense of, you know, college 
basketball, March Madness, players playing, like I think there 
might be a way to make that work from the revenue-sharing 
standpoint, but I don't think it is an employment deal.
    You know, I think it may be like there is some talk--I 
think it was like Division II or Division III tournament where 
they gave money to collectives to pay players for NILs. So, I 
mean, maybe that might work. I don't know the answer to that, 
but I am 100 percent against employment to universities, yes.
    Mr. Pfluger. What--and anybody can answer this. What is the 
most--I use the term closest alligator to the canoe--I mean, 
what is the biggest threat we face right now, if we don't do 
something at the Federal level? And I will kind of look at Mr. 
Chun and Ms. Heppel. I mean, what--if we don't do something 
now, what is the biggest threat and what will happen?
    Mr. Chun. I go to what Mr. Burton said. It is about the 
employment model.
    Mr. Pfluger. OK.
    Mr. Chun. And the impact that will have specifically on 
five leagues or a subset of schools in those five leagues that 
ultimately, if you look at where the revenue is generated from, 
ultimately from the entire enterprise of 500,000 student-
athletes, 1,200 institutions.
    So what--I guess what alarms me is if that path--if the 
road took us down that path, I don't know how Division II, 
Division III, and most of Division I exists anymore.
    Mr. Pfluger. Yes.
    Ms. Heppel. I echo that. I--you know, overseeing a league 
where athletics does not generate revenue, revenue sharing is 
probably not viable, but it does--the concern is around opening 
the door toward the consideration of student-athletes as 
employees. That would be detrimental.
    Mr. Pfluger. Thank you. I know my time is expiring. Do you 
think NIL is a good thing for the Congressional baseball game?
    [Laughter.]
    Mr. Pfluger. OK. Good. I like that. I am going to have to 
consider that. We do play one game a year.
    Mr. Chairman, I yield back.
    Mr. Bilirakis. All right. On that note, I will tell you 
that this was an excellent hearing. The testimony was 
outstanding, and the questions and the answers, it was so 
productive, and we appreciate all of you. I really appreciate 
it very much.
    Now, I want to give our ranking member an opportunity to 
make a statement or her observations, what have you, with 
regard to the hearing. We would appreciate hearing from you.
    Ms. Schakowsky. Well, once again, I do agree with my 
chairman that this has been a really excellent hearing, and I 
really appreciate all of the witnesses.
    I think a lot of questions still remain on how are we going 
to best serve our student-athletes, and I look forward to this 
being just really the beginning of that conversation that will 
end in some ways that we do better.
    So I yield back. Thank you.
    Mr. Bilirakis. Thank you. And, again, we do have a lot of 
questions, and we will submit them for the record. But I think 
we made a great deal of progress today.
    Thank you very much. I remind Members that they have 10 
business days to submit questions for the record. And I ask the 
witnesses to respond to these questions promptly.
    I ask unanimous consent to insert in the record the 
documents included on the staff hearing documents list.
    So, without objection, this committee--again, without 
objection, that will be the order, and we are adjourned.
    Thank you very much for all you have done, and I thank the 
audience as well.
    [Whereupon, at 1:17 p.m., the subcommittee was adjourned.]
    [Material submitted for inclusion in the record follows:]

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