    [House Hearing, 118 Congress]
    [From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]

    TAKING THE BUZZER BEATER TO THE BANK: PROTECTING COLLEGE ATHLETES' NIL
                               DEALMAKING RIGHTS

    =======================================================================

                                    HEARING

                                   BEFORE THE

                 SUBCOMMITTEE ON INNOVATION, DATA, AND COMMERCE

                                     OF THE

                        COMMITTEE ON ENERGY AND COMMERCE
                            HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

                        ONE HUNDRED EIGHTEENTH CONGRESS

                                 FIRST SESSION
                                   __________

                                 MARCH 29, 2023
                                   __________

                               Serial No. 118-18

                      [GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

         Published for the use of the Committee on Energy and Commerce

                       govinfo.gov/committee/house-energy
                            energycommerce.house.gov

                                   __________

                        U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE

    54-500 PDF                 WASHINGTON : 2024

                        COMMITTEE ON ENERGY AND COMMERCE

                       CATHY McMORRIS RODGERS, Washington
                                      Chair
    MICHAEL C. BURGESS, Texas            FRANK PALLONE, Jr., New Jersey
    ROBERT E. LATTA, Ohio                  Ranking Member
    BRETT GUTHRIE, Kentucky              ANNA G. ESHOO, California
    H. MORGAN GRIFFITH, Virginia         DIANA DeGETTE, Colorado
    GUS M. BILIRAKIS, Florida            JAN SCHAKOWSKY, Illinois
    BILL JOHNSON, Ohio                   DORIS O. MATSUI, California
    LARRY BUCSHON, Indiana               KATHY CASTOR, Florida
    RICHARD HUDSON, North Carolina       JOHN P. SARBANES, Maryland
    TIM WALBERG, Michigan                PAUL TONKO, New York
    EARL L. ``BUDDY'' CARTER, Georgia    YVETTE D. CLARKE, New York
    JEFF DUNCAN, South Carolina          TONY CARDENAS, California
    GARY J. PALMER, Alabama              RAUL RUIZ, California
    NEAL P. DUNN, Florida                SCOTT H. PETERS, California
    JOHN R. CURTIS, Utah                 DEBBIE DINGELL, Michigan
    DEBBBIE LESKO, Arizona               MARC A. VEASEY, Texas
    GREG PENCE, Indiana                  ANN M. KUSTER, New Hampshire
    DAN CRENSHAW, Texas                  ROBIN L. KELLY, Illinois
    JOHN JOYCE, Pennsylvania             NANETTE DIAZ BARRAGAN, California
    KELLY ARMSTRONG, North Dakota, Vice  LISA BLUNT ROCHESTER, Delaware
        Chair                            DARREN SOTO, Florida
    RANDY K. WEBER, Sr., Texas           ANGIE CRAIG, Minnesota
    RICK W. ALLEN, Georgia               KIM SCHRIER, Washington
    TROY BALDERSON, Ohio                 LORI TRAHAN, Massachusetts
    RUSS FULCHER, Idaho                  LIZZIE FLETCHER, Texas
    AUGUST PFLUGER, Texas
    DIANA HARSHBARGER, Tennessee
    MARIANNETTE MILLER-MEEKS, Iowa
    KAT CAMMACK, Florida
    JAY OBERNOLTE, California
                                     ------

                               Professional Staff

                          NATE HODSON, Staff Director
                       SARAH BURKE, Deputy Staff Director
                   TIFFANY GUARASCIO, Minority Staff Director
                 Subcommittee on Innovation, Data, and Commerce

                           GUS M. BILIRAKIS, Florida
                                     Chairman
    LARRY BUCSHON, Indiana               JAN SCHAKOWSKY, Illinois
    TIM WALBERG, Michigan, Vice Chair      Ranking Member
    JEFF DUNCAN, South Carolina          KATHY CASTOR, Florida
    NEAL P. DUNN, Florida                DEBBIE DINGELL, Michigan
    DEBBIE LESKO, Arizona                ROBIN L. KELLY, Illinois
    GREG PENCE, Indiana                  LISA BLUNT ROCHESTER, Delaware
    KELLY ARMSTRONG, North Dakota        DARREN SOTO, Florida
    RICK W. ALLEN, Georgia               LORI TRAHAN, Massachusetts
    RUSS FULCHER, Idaho                  YVETTE D. CLARKE, New York
    DIANA HARSHBARGER, Tennessee         FRANK PALLONE, Jr., New Jersey (ex
    KAT CAMMACK, Florida                     officio)
    CATHY McMORRIS RODGERS, Washington
        (ex officio)
                                 C O N T E N T S

                                  ----------
                                                                       Page
    Hon. Gus M. Bilirakis, a Representative in Congress from the
      State of Florida, opening statement............................     1
        Prepared statement...........................................     4
    Hon. Jan Schakowsky, a Representative in Congress from the State
      of Illinois, opening statement.................................     6
        Prepared statement...........................................     8
    Hon. Cathy McMorris Rodgers, a Representative in Congress from
      the State of Washington, opening statement.....................    10
        Prepared statement...........................................    12
    Hon. Frank Pallone, Jr., a Representative in Congress from the
      State of New Jersey, opening statement.........................    14
        Prepared statement...........................................    16
    Hon. Lori Trahan, a Representative in Congress from the
      Commonwealth of Massachusetts, opening statement...............    17
        Prepared statement...........................................    18

                                   Witnesses

    Jennifer Heppel, Commissioner, Patriot League....................    19
        Prepared statement...........................................    21
        Answers to submitted questions...............................   141
    Makola M. Abdullah, Ph.D., President, Virginia State University..    26
        Prepared statement...........................................    28
        Answers to submitted questions...............................   146
    Trey Burton, Former National Football League player..............   f34
        Prepared statement...........................................    36
        Answers to submitted questions...............................   148
    Kaley Mudge, Student Athlete, Florida State University...........    39
        Prepared statement...........................................    41
        Answers to submitted questions...............................   150
    Pat Chun, Director of Athletics, Washington State University.....    43
        Prepared statement...........................................    45
        Answers to submitted questions...............................   153
    Jason Stahl, Ph.D., Executive Director and Founder, College
      Football Players Association...................................    53
        Prepared statement...........................................    55
        Answers to submitted questions...............................   157

                               Submitted Material

    Inclusion of the following was approved by unanimous consent.
    Letter of March 27, 2023, from Kim Pate, Vice President for
      Athletics, Lenoir-Rhyne University, to Subcommittee Members....   103
    Statement of Trinity Thomas, Gymnast and Health Education &
      Behavior Student, University of Florida, March 29, 2023........   106
    Letter of March 28, 2023, from Steve Murray, Commissioner,
      Pennsylvania State Athletic Conference, to Subcommittee Members   109
    Statement of DeWayne Carter, Duke Football, et al., March 28,
      2023...........................................................   111
    Letter of March 28, 2023, from Matt Wilson, Commissioner, Gulf
      South Conference, to Subcommittee Members......................   113
    Letter of March 28, 2023, from Michael A. Driscoll, President,
      Indiana University of Pennsylvania, to Subcommittee Members....   115
    Letter of March 28, 2023, from Carrie Michaels, Senior Associate
      Director of Athletics, Shippensburg University, to Subcommittee
      Members........................................................   117
    Letter of March 28, 2023, from Jere W. Morehead, President,
      University of Georgia, March 28, 2023, to Subcommittee Members.   119
    Letter of March 28, 2023, from Dr. Dean L. Bresciani,
      Distinguished Professor and Former President, North Dakota
      State University, to Mr. Bilirakis, et al......................   122
    Letter of March 28, 2023, from Jeffrey Docking, Ph.D., President,
      Adrian College, to Mr. Bilirakis, et al........................   125
    Letter of March 27, 2023, from Dr. Sandra Woodley, President,
      University of Texas Permian Basin, to Mr. Bilirakis, et al.....   128
    Letter of March 28, 2023, from Greg Christopher, Vice President
      for Administration and Director of Athletics, Xavier
      University, to Subcommittee Members............................   131
    Letter of March 28, 2023, from Jack Langan, Vice Chair, Division
      III National SAAC, NCAA, to Subcommittee Members...............   133
    Commentary of March 21, 2023, ``Even the Supreme Court Can't Save
      the N.C.A.A. From Itself,'' by Bomani Jones, New York Times....   135
    Letter of March 29, 2023, from Representatives Colin Z. Allred,
      August Pfluger, and Emanuel Cleaver II, to Mr. Bilirakis, et
      al.............................................................   137
    Commentary of July 1, 2021, ``At Notre Dame, We Believe `Student'
      Should Come First in `Student-Athlete,''' by John I. Jenkins,
      New York Times.................................................   139

    TAKING THE BUZZER BEATER TO THE BANK: PROTECTING COLLEGE ATHLETES' NIL
                               DEALMAKING RIGHTS

                                  ----------

                           WEDNESDAY, MARCH 29, 2023

                      House of Representatives,
        Subcommittee on Innovation, Data, and Commerce,
                              Committee on Energy and Commerce,
                                                        Washington, DC.
        The subcommittee met, pursuant to call, at 10:30 a.m., in
    room 2322, Rayburn House Office Building, Hon. Gus M. Bilirakis
    (chairman of the subcommittee) presiding.
        Members present: Representatives Bilirakis, Bucshon,
    Walberg, Duncan, Dunn, Lesko, Pence, Allen, Fulcher,
    Harshbarger, Cammack, Rodgers (ex officio), Schakowsky
    (subcommittee ranking member), Castor, Blunt Rochester, Soto,
    Trahan, Clarke, and Pallone (ex officio).
        Also present: Carter, Pfluger, and Cardenas.
        Staff present: Kate Arey, Content Manager and Digital
    Assistant; Michael Cameron, Professional Staff Member,
    Innovation, Data, and Commerce; Jessica Herron, Clerk,
    Innovation, Data, and Commerce; Sean Kelly, Press Secretary;
    Peter Kielty, General Counsel; Chris Krepich, Press Secretary;
    Tim Kurth, Chief Counsel, Innovation, Data, and Commerce;
    Brannon Rains, Professional Staff Member, Innovation, Data, and
    Commerce; Lacey Strahm, Fellow, Innovation, Data, and Commerce;
    Michael Taggart, Policy Director; Teddy Tanzer, Senior Counsel,
    Innovation, Data, and Commerce; Hannah Anton, Minority Staff
    Assistant; Ian Barlow, Minority FTC Detailee; Waverly Gordon,
    Minority Deputy Staff Director and General Counsel; Daniel
    Greene, Minority Professional Staff Member; Tiffany Guarascio,
    Minority Staff Director; Lisa Hone, Minority Chief Counsel,
    Innovation, Data, and Commerce; Mackenzie Kuhl, Minority
    Digital Manager; Joe Orlando, Minority Senior Policy Analyst;
    and C.J. Young, Minority Deputy Communications Director.
        Mr. Bilirakis. Good morning, everyone. The subcommittee
    will come to order.
        The Chair recognizes himself for an opening statement.

    OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. GUS M. BILIRAKIS, A REPRESENTATIVE IN
                   CONGRESS FROM THE STATE OF FLORIDA

        Again, good morning, everyone. I am pleased to hold this
    subcommittee hearing today to discuss an important topic that
    has been the subject of much debate in recent years: name,
    image, and likeness, or NIL, in college sports.
        This debate about whether student-athletes should get NIL
    compensation has already been settled by the courts, leaving
    Congress to figure out how to navigate this new landscape. In
    the meantime, many have already taken advantage of these new
    opportunities.
        During college basketball's busiest time of the year,
    athletes have seized the moment on the court and rode their
    success all the way to the bank. Since the start of March
    Madness, more than 40 deals have been signed with men's and
    women's basketball players. Ahead of the Final Four matchups
    this weekend, one thing is clear: More college athletes will
    ink additional NIL deals.
        The main question before us today is how Congress should
    regulate this new economic frontier to ensure that NIL deals
    are transparent and fair and that they do not compromise the
    integrity of college sports. We must avert the potential
    pitfalls that could come with NIL compensation rights, such as
    becoming recruiting inducements or pay-for-play schemes.
        We also must consider how NIL regulation would affect
    capital distribution in the college sports ecosystem,
    particularly the effects this will have on smaller college
    athletic programs. I want to emphasize that.
        Just last week we heard the unfortunate news that St.
    Francis College in New York made a decision to eliminate its
    entire athletics program, citing residual financial
    implications from COVID-19 pandemic and operating expenses. I
    worry that the financial stress of more mandates will only
    compound such constraints on resources.
        If that is not enough, we are already seeing charitable
    dollars being siphoned away from the athletic departments and
    conferences into third-party NIL collectives. Combine that with
    a requirement for schools to classify their athletes as
    employees--I know that there is a pending proposal in the State
    of New York--we will certainly see more heartbreaking decisions
    made, particularly for sports that don't generate revenue. And
    we have got to preserve those sports, ladies and gentlemen, and
    I worry about the implications of what this would do to Olympic
    sports as well.
        It is vital that we center today's discussion on the
    foundational principle that creating and maintaining an equal
    playing field for all college athletes is paramount. If you are
    advocating for student-athletes, which all of us are here
    today, your priority should be that they remain student-
    athletes.
        I am glad to see a diverse set of perspectives on our
    witness panel today, each sharing a unique view of the college
    NIL landscape. Thank you all for making the time to travel
    before us today, again, being here, and share your insights
    into this topic with us.
        I am particularly proud to see my home State will be
    represented on today's panel. I wonder how that happened? Thank
    you, Kaley. I want to thank Kaley for making the time to come
    share your story with us amidst the demands of being in season.
    I wish you luck at your games, of course, this weekend.
        And it always warms my heart to see my alma mater
    represented. Thank you, Trey, Mr. Trey Burton, for being here.
    And I think everyone knows by now that I bleed orange and blue.
    So, go Gators.
        [Laughter.]
        Mr. Bilirakis. As my colleagues can see by the geographic
    makeup of this panel, NIL affects athletes and institutions in
    all States. It is critical that we establish a Federal
    preemptive standard for NIL to bring clarity and consistency to
    this rapidly evolving space.
        The lack of uniformity across different States and
    institutions has created confusion and uncertainty, and a
    Federal standard is needed so all athletes are playing by the
    same rules. In short, we must strike a delicate balance between
    the rights of college athletes to profit from their own NIL
    while keeping the amateur status for all college athletes.
        With that, with thoughtful and balanced legislation, we can
    create a system that is fair, transparent, and sustainable for
    all. Today's hearing is one step in that process. We can get
    this done if we work together, folks.
        Thank you all for your attention, and I look forward to a
    productive discussion on this very important topic.
        OK. And now I yield.
        [The prepared statement of Mr. Bilirakis follows:]

    [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

        I will recognize the gentlelady from Illinois, Ms.
    Schakowsky, for 5 minutes for her opening statement. She is our
    ranking member, and we have worked so well together in the
    past. So I yield to--I give you 5 minutes, Representative
    Schakowsky, please.

     OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. JAN SCHAKOWSKY, A REPRESENTATIVE IN
                  CONGRESS FROM THE STATE OF ILLINOIS

        Ms. Schakowsky. Thank you so much, Mr. Chairman, for your
    continued collaboration, and I want to thank the witnesses for
    being here today.
        Throughout March, fans gathered to cheer for their
    basketball teams, and I have to tell you that I was thrilled
    that this year for the first time ever both Illinois Big Ten
    teams were in the NCAA men's basketball tournament. Yay. We
    didn't get all the way, but----
        So, and college sports brings joy to Americans in every
    State, in every congressional district, and certainly also to
    current and former athletes. I want to tip my hat to our
    colleague, Representative Trahan, who is one of those, and I am
    sure there are others among our--among our Members. And she--
    that was volleyball, by the way. And so--but college sports
    have also generated enormous wealth, but that wealth has not
    been--has not been uniformly distributed among all who need to
    be.
        For example, let me say those most responsible for the
    creation of that wealth--the players--have yet to receive their
    fair share of the pie. We have seen athletes deprived of the
    basic--the basic needs that they have, and we need to do
    something about it.
        For anyone who doubts--who doubts me, I look back to 2015,
    when Northwestern football players--and I am proud to represent
    them--tried to--began an effort to unionize. I supported that.
    Northwestern employed the same anti-union tactics that we have
    seen among giant corporations like Starbucks and Amazon.
        And it is essential that college athletes not only have the
    right to benefit from their name and image and likeness, but
    that they can--that they can make sure that they get the
    benefits in other ways as well.
        For example, under NCAA rules, athletes are required to
    have basic health insurance. However, schools are not required
    to provide the health insurance. Unfortunately, these--the two
    health insurance options offered by the NCAA provide
    insufficient coverage and is also time-limited, yet for some
    athletes, injuries last sometimes even a lifetime, but
    certainly longer than the insurance covers.
        For years Congress has been told, well, just let them
    regulate themselves--talking about the NCAA and others--do it
    themselves. But only after a Supreme Court ruling would we
    finally see the passage of some legislation, State laws in
    various States, have we--did the NCAA begin to allow some
    college athletes to make money from their name, image, and
    likeness.
        However, huge--let me just see--am I still there? No, I
    guess--oh, wait, I am still there. OK.
        However, huge disparities in--still exist between athletes
    in various colleges. So more--absolutely more needs to be done,
    and I really look forward to the debate that we are going to
    have in this committee to make sure how we are going to address
    these issues.
        I think the time has come for real change. I want to say
    that I have read all of your testimony, and I just wanted to
    tell you that I have to leave for a brief moment to go to the
    Budget Committee, where I am going to be asking questions, and
    then I am going to come back and hear the rest of it. But thank
    you so much to our witnesses.
        And with that, I yield back, Mr. Chairman.
        [The prepared statement of Ms. Schakowsky follows:]

    [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

        Mr. Bilirakis. Thank you. Appreciate it. Thank you, Ranking
    Member.
        I do want to say that the testimony is excellent, and I had
    an opportunity to read it as well. So we appreciate that very
    much.
        I now recognize our chairperson of the full committee, Mrs.
    Rodgers, for her 5 minutes for her opening statement. You are
    recognized.

          OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. CATHY McMORRIS RODGERS, A
        REPRESENTATIVE IN CONGRESS FROM THE STATE OF WASHINGTON

        Mrs. Rodgers. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And thank you for
    your dedication to the issue of name, likeness--name, image,
    likeness. I know this. Name, image, likeness. I know it is
    close to your heart to ensure college athletes have every
    chance to succeed professionally and academically.
        We are fortunate to have a few former college athletes on
    this committee, and I know it is an issue that is close to
    their hearts as well.
        I would also like to thank Mr. Pat Chun from Washington
    State University, the athletic director for Washington State
    University, who is testifying today. Go Cougs. He has been a
    leader on this issue, his work at WSU and various roles with
    the NCAA. Just appreciate your insights.
        The Supreme Court blew the whistle on the NCAA in 2021 as
    it unanimously ruled it can no longer prohibit college athletes
    from receiving compensation for their NIL. The ruling could not
    have been clearer. The NCAA was overly restrictive in its
    prohibition of athletes profiting from their NIL.
    Unfortunately, the Supreme Court's ruling did not offer clear
    rules of the road.
        Instead, we have seen a rollercoaster of State activity as
    States compete to have the most advantageous laws for their
    respective schools. For example, Alabama enacted an NIL law to
    provide guardrails and quickly had to repeal it within a year
    over concerns more restrictive laws could put them in a
    competitive disadvantage in recruiting versus other States.
        Not unlike other challenging issues before this committee,
    the patchwork of State laws is confusing for athletes, schools,
    and conferences alike. It is unreasonable to expect student-
    athletes to balance their studies with navigating a maze of
    complex and conflicting laws. They are put in a potentially
    devastating position of running afoul of rules they would need
    a law firm to provide counsel on.
        Without a clear and consistent set of rules in place, the
    entire ecosystem is disrupted and important elements of the
    educational experience are decimated. Nonrevenue-generating
    sports that help athletes get into and through a college degree
    program are being hurt. Advances thanks to Title IX will be
    reversed if there aren't consistent rules to benefit women's
    sports.
        As Chairman Bilirakis shared, small schools' athletic
    programs will be eliminated, as they are unable to compete in
    such a complex system of rules and incentives.
        While some sports in the highest level are profitable, most
    student-athletes compete in sports that would not have a good
    return on investment. We cannot allow an outcome where there
    are thousands of college athletes--where they lose their
    opportunity to compete in the sports they love.
        The current NIL chaos means student-athletes are left to
    fend for themselves, and those at the top of their game must
    figure out how to maneuver through a multiple of agents,
    collectives, and high-dollar contract offers, all while
    maintaining their academic and athletic commitments. The
    pressure placed on these student-athletes is immense and raises
    important questions on them being able to receive counseling
    for financial planning and mental well-being.
        Clear protections in education can prevent many unfortunate
    examples of college athletes being exploited. In resolving
    these challenges, we must not ruin what makes college athletics
    so special.
        NIL is long overdue. It means a supplemental income for
    student-athletes across the country. The recent changes in NCAA
    NIL policy recognize what has always been true. These college--
    these athletes are more--these collegiate athletes are more
    than just athletes. They are small business owners, podcasters,
    and entrepreneurs.
        We must give them clear guidelines for how they explore and
    nurture these talents. We must also establish clear national
    rules so amateur athletes have every chance to succeed in life
    and sports. Every one of us takes great pride in the
    universities and colleges in our home States. We all want our
    student-athletes to be successful, both on and off the field.
        Again, thank you to the witnesses for appearing before us
    today, as your input will help guide us in legislating a set of
    rules that works for everyone.
        I yield back.
        [The prepared statement of Mrs. Rodgers follows:]

    [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

        Mr. Bilirakis. Thank you, Madam Chair. appreciate it very
    much.
        And before I recognize the ranking member of the full
    committee, Mr. Pallone, I would like to ask him a question.
    Sir, Eagles or Giants?
        [Laughter.]
        Mr. Pallone. Giants, but I actually like both.
        Mr. Bilirakis. OK. That is a politician there.
        Mr. Pallone. Well, I am in central Jersey, so, you know, we
    have people from----
        Mr. Bilirakis. Oh, OK. Well----
        Mr. Pallone [continuing]. For both teams.
        Mr. Bilirakis. I am going to tell you that, as you know,
    Mr. Burton is responsible for the Philly Special. And he is an
    Eagles fan, so be nice to him.
        Mr. Pallone. I will.
        Mr. Bilirakis. All right. I think you are always nice.
    Thank you. You are a great friend. All right. I want to
    recognize you for 5 minutes, sir, for your opening statement.

    OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. FRANK PALLONE, Jr., A REPRESENTATIVE
                IN CONGRESS FROM THE STATE OF NEW JERSEY

        Mr. Pallone. Thank you. And, Mr. Chairman, I did want to
    recognize, because I see him in the audience, former
    Congressman Tom McMillen, who served on this committee when I
    started, and he of course was a great basketball player and
    when he was here championed the concerns of college athletes.
    So I am sure that is why he is here today. Thank you, Tom.
        But I also wanted to say that I do think this is an
    important hearing. The devotion, sacrifice, and hard work of
    collegiate athletes helps make college sports one of the most
    popular and lucrative brands of sports entertainment in the
    country. And they play packed stadiums, their performances
    fuels viewership, their talents and charisma drive merchandise
    sales, and their successes increase revenue and enrollment.
        And college athletes deserve a system that protects their
    interests and well-being while preserving the educational
    mission of college sports. So that is why I am pleased that the
    National Collegiate Athletic Association has finally been
    forced to allow college athletes to monetize their name, image,
    and likeness, just like any other students on campus or coach
    in the lockout room--locker room. And while name, image, and
    likeness reform is a start, any future actions by Congress to
    legislate in this space must also address some of the broader,
    equally pressing issues affecting college athletes today,
    issues like health and safety, players' rights to organize,
    compensation, and gender equity.
        We have to ensure that players' welfare is the top priority
    for the athletic programs at colleges and universities across
    the country, regardless of division, conference, or sport, and
    that means every player must receive proper care for sports-
    related medical issues, even when that care comes after leaving
    college.
        It means college athletes' First Amendment rights to
    organize must be respected and protected, and that players must
    be able to meaningfully negotiate to ensure their voices are
    heard. And it also means that we must be mindful of protecting
    and building on the benefits Title IX has brought to women's
    college sports.
        So I thank Chairs Rodgers and Bilirakis for their
    willingness to work in a bipartisan manner and assure all
    perspectives are represented here today. These athletes deserve
    a system that puts players' welfare first, not the NCAA's
    bottom line. I look forward to hearing from the panel on how we
    in Congress can achieve that goal for collegiate athletes.
        But I am going to yield the remainder of my time to
    Congresswoman Trahan, because she knows a lot more about these
    issues than I do as a former Division I female athlete, the
    only former Division I female athlete serving in Congress.
        [The prepared statement of Mr. Pallone follows:]

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      OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. LORI TRAHAN, A REPRESENTATIVE IN
            CONGRESS FROM THE COMMONWEALTH OF MASSACHUSETTS

        Mrs. Trahan. Well, I thank the ranking member for yielding.
    Like many of our colleagues on the committee, I believe that
    Congress can and must act to create a level playing field for
    college athletics. We will no doubt hear from our witnesses
    today that the current patchwork of State laws is difficult for
    colleges and conferences to navigate. But as a former college
    athlete myself, I am more concerned with how that same
    patchwork affects athletes.
        When I was being recruited to play volleyball, I had to
    navigate that process alone. You know, my parents didn't get a
    scholarship to college. In fact, many first-generation
    Americans like my dad didn't have a choice but to start working
    right after high school. They didn't--they did their best to
    help me, but the burden of navigating different scholarship
    offers and weighing the pros and cons of one school against
    another was stressful and at times daunting.
        That was difficult enough 30 years ago without having to
    parse through the different State laws to determine if going to
    a school in New Mexico might be better from an NIL perspective
    than staying in my home State of Massachusetts. But that is the
    challenge that athletes are facing today. Make no mistake, the
    system of college athletics is better than it was 2 years ago,
    but there are emerging challenges, including inequity and
    collusion among collectives, predatory contracts, and Title IX
    loopholes that we should address.
        I would urge my colleagues that when we move the ball
    forward on this issue we do so in a way that prioritize the
    rights of athletes who have long been left out of discussions
    about the future of college athletics. There should not be a
    desire to return to the status quo that didn't work for so many
    college athletes.
        We can't put that genie back in the bottle, as they say,
    but we can work together to advance legislation that creates a
    level playing field, strengthens the rights of athletes, and
    preserves college athletics for generations to come.
        I want to thank the Chair and ranking member for hosting
    today's hearing and the panel of witnesses for their testimony,
    and I yield back.
        [The prepared statement of Ms. Trahan follows:]

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        Mr. Bilirakis. Thank you so very much. So we have now
    concluded with Member opening statements. The Chair reminds
    Members that, pursuant to the committee rules, all Members'
    opening statements will be part of the record.
        So our first witness is Jennifer Heppel, the commissioner
    of the Patriot League.
        So you are recognized. Thank you so very much for being
    here. You are recognized for 5 minutes.

     STATEMENTS OF JENNIFER HEPPEL, COMMISSIONER, PATRIOT LEAGUE;
         MAKOLA M. ABDULLAH, Ph.D., PRESIDENT, VIRGINIA STATE
       UNIVERSITY; TREY BURTON, FORMER NATIONAL FOOTBALL LEAGUE
    PLAYER; KALEY MUDGE, STUDENT-ATHLETE, FLORIDA STATE UNIVERSITY;
     PAT CHUN, DIRECTOR OF ATHLETICS, WASHINGTON STATE UNIVERSITY;
       AND JASON STAHL, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR AND FOUNDER, COLLEGE
                      FOOTBALL PLAYERS ASSOCIATION

                      STATEMENT OF JENNIFER HEPPEL

        Ms. Heppel. Thank you. Thank you, Chairman Bilirakis and
    Ranking Member Schakowsky and all the members of the
    subcommittee. It is a great opportunity to be here today.
        My name is Jennifer Heppel, commissioner of the Patriot
    League, which is one of 32 Division I conferences within the
    NCAA structure. I have been fortunate to spend my entire
    career--30 years so far, we will see how today goes--no, 30
    years so far in college athletics at the national,
    institutional, and conference levels.
        I was a women's ice hockey student-athlete in college, and
    that experience laid the foundation for my professional growth.
        While the title of this hearing is specific to NIL, I have
    a sense we might touch on some other issues. So let me share
    some perspective from the Patriot League.
        There are over 8,000 student-athletes competing on over 240
    teams across the league. Collectively, that is 20 percent of
    our undergraduate student population. The Patriot League
    believes that participation in athletics is an important
    component of a well-rounded education.
        The integrated student-athlete experience, the academic and
    personal growth of student-athletes, is primary. Being a
    student in the Patriot League and being an athlete in the
    Patriot League are not mutually exclusive. Our students are
    fully engaged in campus life. They live in dorms, eat in the
    dining halls, participate in study abroad, lead campus
    organizations, participate in internships, and they compete as
    Division I athletes.
        This year's Patriot League Women's Basketball Player of the
    Year spent last summer as a business administration intern in
    Barcelona. This was through a scholarship sponsored by the
    business school at Lehigh University. A key contributor on our
    men's basketball championship team from Colgate, and a former
    Patriot League Rookie of the Year, spent last summer as a bunk
    counselor at a camp for children with special needs. He plans
    to pursue a master's in counseling and move into private
    therapy when he finishes playing.
        Just a few years ago, on the day prior to being in the
    starting lineup for our men's basketball championship, I was
    honored to watch our then-Men's Basketball Player of the Year
    from Bucknell present a project with his senior design team to
    leadership at a medical center in northeast Pennsylvania. He
    earned his degree in biomedical engineering in 4 years and is
    now playing professional basketball overseas.
        We have 8,000 young people on our campuses that share
    similar experiences. Those are just three. These are not
    employees of our institutions. They are students being provided
    comprehensive support so that they can experience and achieve
    academic and athletic excellence.
        Just like all students on our campuses, Patriot League
    student-athletes are able to profit off their own name, image,
    and likeness. The League fully supports NIL opportunities. Many
    provide important professional networking, educational, career
    development, and service dimensions. NIL managed and regulated
    in a legitimate manner represents an area of constructive
    change and opportunity for student-athletes.
        Unfortunately, the instability created by the multitude of
    State laws and the lack of transparency in the current
    structure is undermining the positive change. Finding a means
    toward appropriate national regulation around NIL is necessary
    to address these negative impacts.
        Today's challenges are unique, but the fact that such
    challenges exist is not surprising. This is a national model.
    There are differing institutional characteristics and
    priorities to consider, and resulting perspectives will vary,
    but our solutions for the challenges must preserve and protect
    the universally considered positives of intercollegiate
    athletics, its connectivity to the educational mission, and the
    provision of opportunity for hundreds of thousands of young
    people.
        Thank you.
        [The prepared statement of Ms. Heppel follows:]

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        Mr. Bilirakis. Thank you. Appreciate it very much.
        Next we will have Dr. Makola Abdullah, the president of the
    Virginia State University, and you are recognized, sir.
        Thanks for being here. You are recognized for 5 minutes.

                 STATEMENT OF MAKOLA M. ABDULLAH, Ph.D.

        Dr. Abdullah. Thank you, sir. Chairman Bilirakis, Ranking
    Member Schakowsky, members of the committee, and members of the
    subcommittee, I am Makola Abdullah. I serve as the president of
    Virginia State University, a historically black college located
    in Chesterfield County just outside of Petersburg, Virginia.
        I serve as a member of the Presidential Board of Advisors
    on HBCUs, chaired by Tony Allen of Delaware State University,
    and I am also the past chair of the Central Intercollegiate
    Athletic Association, the CIAA, the oldest and the--well, the
    first and the oldest, I guess that would be the same thing--
    historically black university athletic conference in the
    country. Our current chair is Dr. Aminta Breaux of Bowie State,
    and our commissioner is Ms. Jacqie McWilliams.
        Our Division II athletic programs at Virginia State
    University are led by Mrs. Peggy Davis, the best athletic
    director in the country, and we currently offer 21
    intercollegiate athletic sports, including recently added men's
    and women's soccer and men's and women's lacrosse.
        Again, I would like to thank you for the opportunity to
    participate, to discuss college athletes' rights to the name,
    image, and likeness. While I was afforded an abundance of
    opportunities during my collegiate career, my athletic talents,
    unfortunately, did not afford me the opportunity to participate
    on an NCAA sports team at Howard University.
        I am, however, an avid fan and supporter of college
    athletics and college athletes, and particularly the young men
    and women who suit up in the orange and blue, the Trojan orange
    and blue.
        As president, my goal is to be a part of an institution
    that changes lives through education and prepares our students
    to enter the world as savvy global citizens, lifelong learners,
    and generational change agents. At Virginia State University,
    our athletics program is supported by student fees. While
    college sports has become a multibillion-dollar business, there
    are many institutions like ours where athletics is still very
    much an amateur extracurricular program.
        It is important to remember that there are three divisions
    of athletics, and they are not all created equally. For some
    universities like Virginia State University, again, athletics
    is not revenue generating. We are not one of the major Division
    I institutions. And while we are not, I fully believe, though,
    that it is all of our responsibility to make sure that everyone
    who participates in college athletics has the right to reap the
    benefits of their labor.
        Virginia State University, other HBCUs, and Division II and
    III institutions have been competing against major universities
    for students, student-athletes, faculty, staff, administrators,
    Federal grants, private philanthropic dollars, for many years.
        We are not afraid of competition, and we believe that we
    can successfully recruit student-athletes who understand the
    transformative nature of our--of HBCUs who believe in our
    mission and understand the longstanding tradition of excellence
    at our university.
        I am sure that all of you are aware that, according to the
    NCAA, student-athletes are not required to disclose the amount
    of their NIL deals. However, at Virginia State University, we
    are aware of five student-athletes who have currently disclosed
    an NIL deal. That is a total of--from over 300 athletes--
    student-athletes at VSU. If I was to estimate the total value
    of these NIL deals, I am sure that it would be less than
    $10,000.
        The NIL experience is unique to individual institutions
    because the revenue generated differs among all of our
    institutions. It is paramount that we provide our athletes with
    the proper tools to manage the responsibilities that come with
    these NIL deals. Therefore, at VSU we provide financial
    literacy and marketing education for our student-athletes. We
    continue to teach and educate young men and women to maximize
    their ability to make money from their talents and brands.
        I better move quickly.
        As leader of a proud HBCU, we have--we have been concerned
    about our institution's systematic underfunding since our
    founding. At the State level, our previous Governor, Ralph
    Northam, and our current Governor, Glenn Youngkin, and our
    State legislature have tried to address the issue.
        I do know that on the Federal level Congresswoman Alma
    Adams, Congressman French Hill, and Senators Chris Coons and
    Tim Scott of the bipartisan HBCU Caucus, and our Virginia
    delegation led by Congressman Bobby Scott, Congresswoman
    Abigail Spanberger, and Congresswoman Jennifer McClellan, with
    Senators Tim Kaine and Mark Warner, are stalworth advocates for
    addressing these issues.
        While that is not the issue on the table today, it must be
    considered in the context of this conversation, because
    students and student-athletes look at all of a university--all
    that a university has to offer when considering where to attend
    college: your sports facilities, your stadiums and classrooms,
    your libraries and infrastructure. But I will not belabor that
    point as of course that is literally a hearing for another day.
        Thank you very much, sir.
        [The prepared statement of Dr. Abdullah follows:]

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        Mr. Bilirakis. Appreciate it very much. Thank you.
        Our next witness is Mr. Trey Burton, a former National
    Football League player. And did I mention he played his college
    ball at the University of Florida?
        OK. Well, anyway, sir, thank you for being here. We
    appreciate it, and I recognize you for 5 minutes.

                        STATEMENT OF TREY BURTON

        Mr. Burton. Thank you. Good morning, Chair Rodgers, Ranking
    Member Pallone, Chairman Bilirakis, Ranking Member Schakowsky,
    and distinguished members of the committee. I want to thank you
    for the opportunity to testify before you today on the issue of
    name, image, and likeness.
        My name is Trey Burton. I am a former collegiate athlete
    from the University of Florida. Go Gators.
        I was then fortunate enough to play 7 years in the NFL: 4
    years with the Eagles, 2 years with the Bears, and 1 year with
    the Colts. I currently reside in Tampa, Florida, with my wife
    and three children.
        The University of Florida has a very special place in my
    heart. From the age of 6, I dreamed about wearing the orange
    and blue. I will never forget the day that Urban Meyer called
    and offered me a scholarship, which I committed right on the
    spot. The list of things that make UF special to me are too
    long to talk about today, but two things that will forever have
    a lasting impression on my life are the Gator brand and the
    relationships I have made there during my time.
        One of the reasons I believe I am a credible--I am credible
    to talk about the issues in question today is the fact that I
    have seen my sport from the lowest level at the age of 5 and to
    the highest level when I retired at the age of 30. I had my
    breakout game in my freshman season and had a great amount of
    success early on in my time at the university.
        I would have been a perfect candidate and benefited greatly
    from NIL. I got married and had my first child my junior year
    at Florida, and the resources I could have potentially received
    would have benefited my family and gone a long way at that
    time.
        As a 7-year NFL veteran, I can also testify to how the
    sport changes if you are fortunate enough to make the jump from
    amateur sport to professional sport. The peace of mind a
    scholarship gives you compared to a nonguaranteed NFL contract
    is like comparing apples to oranges. They are completely
    different worlds.
        The business side of the NFL is complex. But having
    successfully walked through those contracts, it is important
    for me to speak on those differences and properly equip
    student-athletes for that transition.
        We have an opportunity with NIL to ensure that the business
    deals benefit student-athletes rather than harm them or set
    them up poorly in the long run. As many of you are aware,
    college football has changed or college athletics have changed
    dramatically over the last 18 to 22 months.
        There has been a lot of debate over whether these changes
    have been good or bad for collegiate sports. The evolution of
    NIL has happened so fast that many would argue that it is like
    the wild wild west for colleges and student-athletes alike.
        The line between amateur sports and professional sports
    seems to be getting blurrier and blurrier every day. States
    like California have proposed legislation to equal revenue
    sharing between athletic programs and student-athletes. There
    are even efforts to make all student-athletes employees of the
    universities that they attend.
        I would like to first start by stating that I believe NIL
    is here to stay, and I believe that college athletes should be
    able to get paid as much as legally possible from the
    marketplace for their name, image, and likeness.
        In my opinion, the good that has come with NIL has heavily
    outweighed the bad. We are now seeing athletes able to profit
    not only off their name, image, and likeness, but also off
    business ventures, endorsement deals, and marketing
    opportunities, which I, 10 years ago, never had the chance to
    do.
        There are also amazing stories of athletes giving back to
    their communities and spreading awareness to organizations that
    are near and dear to their hearts. Some of these young adults
    are even able to use their funds to take back home and to take
    care of their family, which would have never been possible
    prior.
        When I was playing, athletes had to choose whether to make
    money or pursue the sport of their dreams and gain an
    education. I am so glad that is no longer the case now.
        On the other hand, some of the negatives I have heard and
    seen with NIL are first and foremost how every State has their
    own laws and rules and regulations regarding how NIL is used.
    This is especially dangerous with the use of NIL in recruiting.
    There is evidence that NIL is currently being used as a
    recruitment tool for both high school athletes as well as
    potential transfer athletes.
        NIL was never intended to be used as pay-for-play. One of
    the worst examples of pay-for-play would be to make these
    athletes employees of the universities. Not only do
    universities not want this, but I believe that this is where
    amateur sport crosses the line into professional sport.
        The other issue I have has been a lack of transparency
    regarding the language of some of the deals that the athletes
    have been given or have already accepted, and there have been
    reports of agents taking up to 30 percent in fees, which is
    unbelievable, and also athletes signing away their intellectual
    property in some cases and access to their social media, which
    is crazy as well.
        If we don't establish a uniform set of rules with clear
    guidelines, these issues will only magnify, allowing student-
    athletes to be taken advantage of or caught in the middle.
        As a former Division I athlete, I can tell you that my fear
    in this is that these athletes have been thrown in the fire
    with limited resources, no infrastructure to help them succeed
    and to protect them from bad actors. There needs to be a
    uniform set of NIL rules that everybody has to play by no
    matter where the student plays or how large or small the school
    or the sport is.
        We need to make it a priority now more than ever to educate
    our student-athletes how to take proper advantage of their
    financial opportunities.
        Thank you.

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        Mr. Bilirakis. Appreciate it very much. Hey, Trey, I
    dreamed about it too, but it never happened for me.
        [Laughter.]
        Mr. Bilirakis. I ended up in Congress.
        [Laughter.]
        Mr. Bilirakis. Our next witness is Kaley Mudge, a student-
    athlete from Florida State University. And thank you so very
    much for being here, particularly since the season is still
    going on for you. So I recognize you for 5 minutes. Thank you.

                        STATEMENT OF KALEY MUDGE

        Ms. Mudge. Thank you. Chairwoman McMorris Rodgers, Ranking
    Member Pallone, Mr. Bilirakis, Ms. Schakowsky, and
    distinguished members of the Energy and Commerce Committee,
    thank you for providing me with the opportunity to testify
    before you on the important topic of protecting NIL rights for
    college athletes.
        Good morning. My name is Kaley Mudge. I am a red-shirt
    junior outfielder on the Florida State softball team, and I am
    from Winter Springs, Florida.
        I am currently majoring in exercise science and will be
    graduating this spring. My goal is to go to nursing school when
    my eligibility is finished.
        I would first like to thank you for the opportunity to be
    here today and speak to you about my experiences as a college
    student-athlete. Florida State has truthfully changed my life
    in the past 4 years. I have seen myself grow into the best
    version of myself as a student, as an athlete, and as a person.
        I chose Florida State because from the moment I stepped on
    campus it felt like home. I wanted to find a program and an
    institution that felt like a community, and I found that at
    FSU. The professors, coaches, administrators, and students have
    made my 4 years such a great experience.
        The culture of the softball program specifically is such a
    family, and I am blessed to find that in a national
    championship program. My coaches, athletic trainer,
    nutritionist, strength coach, and teammates have all helped me
    become my best self, and I wouldn't be where I am today without
    them.
        I came into FSU as a partial academic and athletic
    scholarship recipient. When NIL came into play in 2021, I was
    very excited for the chance to start earning money to help
    further pay for my education.
        My experience with NIL has been a very positive experience.
    I have gotten the opportunity to learn so much about the
    professional world as a college student, including how to read
    contracts, how to negotiate deals, and how to earn and save
    money. As an Olympic-sport athlete on a partial scholarship,
    NIL has been extremely beneficial to me because I am able to
    help pay for my tuition to hopefully come out of college with
    little debt. One specific deal that I am involved in now has
    given me the opportunity to start saving money for nursing
    school when I am done playing softball.
        NIL has served as an effective means for comprehensive life
    skills education, given the multifaceted nature of this issue.
    This includes financial literacy training, contract review,
    personal branding, business formation, and responsible social
    media strategies.
        Like many universities across the NCAA, Florida State
    University has developed a comprehensive education program to
    provide student-athletes with knowledge, resources, and support
    to navigate the NIL environment. This includes the creation of
    three separate NIL-related courses in partnership with the
    College of Business and School of Entrepreneurship, sport for
    contractor--support for contract review through the College of
    Law, cobranding opportunities through the use of institutional
    marks and logos, and expansion of current university
    partnerships to develop opportunities relative to NIL.
        In addition to the support provided by the institution, the
    collective has provided additional resources in the NIL space,
    specifically in identifying and securing new NIL opportunities,
    understanding market value, and facilitating group licensing
    opportunities for myself and other student-athletes.
    Specifically, I am an ambassador for our FSU collective, and
    this is the deal that is helping me pay for nursing school.
        Given that we compete for national championships, it is
    imperative that we have uniform NIL guidelines and expectations
    as opposed to the current framework of disparate or nonexistent
    State laws and regulations. These national standards should
    guarantee student-athletes the ability to pursue NIL
    opportunities. These standards should also ensure a healthy
    recruiting environment to promote fairness and equity, along
    with a measure of transparency to support the NIL marketplace.
        As we celebrate 50 years of Title IX, it is important that
    the opportunities for participation and access to higher
    education, specifically for underrepresented populations, are
    supported and ensured. There are many threats throughout
    legislation and litigation that would undermine this model.
        Throughout college athletics, and specifically at Florida
    State, student-athletes receive the highest forms of healthcare
    support, including medical coverage for athletic injuries
    beyond graduation and eligibility. We continue to expand access
    to enhanced nutrition and mental health resources, and we also
    receive first-class academic support and resources, such as
    advisors and tutors.
        These benefits enjoyed by student-athletes across the
    country would not be possible without the legal protections
    under Title IX and the redistribution of revenue across all
    sponsored sports. The creation of an employee-employer model
    would significantly threaten this current dynamic and alter
    everything we know about how sports outside football and men's
    basketball are supported.
        NIL has provided me with so many opportunities in the past
    2 years, and it has made my experience even better as a college
    student-athlete.
        Thank you again for your time and for the opportunity to be
    here today.
        [The prepared statement of Ms. Mudge follows:]

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        Mr. Bilirakis. Thank you very much. Thank you for your
    testimony. It was excellent.
        Our next witness is Pat Chun, who is the director of
    athletics from Washington State University. You are recognized,
    sir, for 5 minutes.

                         STATEMENT OF PAT CHUN

        Mr. Chun. Thank you, and good morning. And subcommittee
    Chair Bilirakis, and distinguished members of the subcommittee,
    thank you for the opportunity to appear before you today to
    discuss protecting name, image, and likeness rights for college
    student-athletes.
        My name is Pat Chun. I have worked in college athletics for
    over 25 years and currently serve as the director of athletics
    at Washington State University.
        WSU is a public land-grant research institution. Our
    athletics program sponsors 17 varsity sports comprised of
    nearly 500 student-athletes, including the reigning Pac-12
    Conference women's basketball champions.
        The mission of WSU athletics is to unleash excellence and
    provide a transformational student-athlete experience. WSU
    athletics prides itself on being one of the most fiscally
    efficient athletic departments in the country, with our budget
    consistently ranked amongst the lowest in the Power Five
    conferences.
        Our student-athletes currently hold a school record 3.22
    cumulative grade point average, graduate at an 8 percent higher
    rate than the general student population, while also earning a
    91 percent NCAA graduation success rate, the highest in school
    history. Also, more than 20 percent of our student-athletes are
    first-generation college students.
        College athletics is facing significant challenges with no
    simple solutions. Last year I met weekly serving on the 21-
    member NCAA Division I Transformation Committee. At our
    conclusion, recommendations were submitted to the NCAA Division
    I Board of Directors and approved in January.
        These recommendations introduced the holistic model for
    student-athletes, setting expectations for the support of their
    health, safety, and well-being, called for elevating the
    championship experience, and created a fairer, faster, and
    equitable NCAA governance model. Nevertheless, significant
    challenges remain in college athletics.
        The primacy of academics is at the foundation of every
    institution of higher education. While college athletics has
    evolved into a multibillion-dollar industry, our mission
    remains to educate young people and prepare them for their
    respective futures.
        Proposed State legislation and ongoing litigation may
    impact student-athlete employment status, and the issue
    threatens to cause irreparable damage to the student-athlete
    experience. Certain aspects of a potential employer-employee
    relationship should be considered with caution. The notion that
    a student-athlete could be fired for underperformance
    undermines the very core of the educational mission.
        Additionally, transitioning to employment status could
    erode many of the benefits and guarantees that student-athletes
    currently receive through potential tax implications.
        Lastly, if one group of student-athletes becomes employees,
    such as those in high-revenue-producing sports, demands and
    legal claims could be made that all student-athletes should
    become employees. The financial impact could lead to the
    reduction of opportunities for broad-based participation on
    campuses around the country, resulting in significant Title IX
    implications threatening generations of hard-fought progress in
    women's sports.
        NIL was intended to be the next significant benefit for
    student-athletes. Like any other student on campus, the
    student-athletes deserve the right to monetize their NIL based
    on the reputation and platform. Although true NIL provides
    tremendous opportunities for student-athletes, the existing
    environment consists of recruiting inducements, tampering, and
    ultimately pay-for-play, and is wrought with pitfalls and
    misinformation. Recent reports in the media suggest that
    current student-athletes across the country are being
    approached with empty promises which lead to false
    expectations.
        There is a probability that inequity exists in the NIL
    marketplace. One example is from research provided by Navigate,
    a sports data and valuation company. The research focused on
    compensation for influencers states that approximately 77
    percent of the general--meaning noncollege athletics--NIL
    compensation is earned by women.
        Comparatively, the research suggests women student-athletes
    are receiving just 16.2 percent of the college athletics NIL
    compensation. These numbers support the widespread belief that
    the collegiate athletics NIL market is not reflective of the
    true value of a student's NIL.
        Without disclosures, institutions and student-athletes are
    not able to properly assess NIL opportunities for fairness and
    equity. By shielding accurate and required transactional
    information, third parties have profited from the uninformed
    decisions of student-athletes. Only with transparency,
    oversight, and uniform regulation will unscrupulous third
    parties begin to act with the best interests of student-
    athletes at heart.
        On behalf of Washington State University and our president,
    Kirk Schulz, we are committed to being a part of the solution.
    We respectfully ask Congress to partner with the NCAA and our
    member institutions to develop Federal standards that provide
    transparency and enforceable safeguards to mitigate the
    negative impact of the existing NIL environment. This will help
    ensure student-athletes benefit from the full potential of
    their NIL.
        It is also vital that we affirm the current relationship
    between student-athletes and institutions. WSU supports
    meaningful oversight that provides protection and value to the
    student-athlete and ensures that institutions and outside
    entities are complying with standardized rules and governing
    policies.
        Thank you.
        [The prepared statement of Mr. Chun follows:]

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        Mr. Bilirakis. Thank you, sir. Appreciate it very much.
        Our final witness is Jason Stahl, executive director and
    founder of the College Football Players Association. You are
    recognized, sir, for 5 minutes.

                    STATEMENT OF JASON STAHL, Ph.D.

        Dr. Stahl. Thank you.
        Mr. Bilirakis. Thanks for being here.
        Dr. Stahl. Of course. Chairman Bilirakis, Ranking Member
    Schakowsky, members of the Subcommittee on Innovation, Data,
    and Commerce, I appreciate the opportunity to testify here
    today on behalf of the College Football Players Association, or
    CFBPA.
        My name is Jason Stahl, and I am the institution's founder
    and executive director.
        Since our founding, we have been building an independent,
    voluntary, nonpartisan, membership-driven players association
    that brings together past, present, and future college football
    players from all levels of play.
        Our Leadership Committee, or LC, is comprised of committed
    alumni members and current player members of the CFBPA. The LC
    has guided the development of our 7-point Platform for Change.
    I am proud to have two members of our LC here today.
        Justin Falcinelli played college football at Clemson
    University, where he was a two-time College Football Playoff
    national champion. Here also from our LC is Jordan Meachum.
    Jordan played first at Sacred Heart University and then
    finished his playing career at South Dakota State University,
    where he was an NCAA Division I FCS national championship
    runner-up. Both of these men have many academic honors to their
    name.
        Today I am here to deliver a simple message that the
    problems of college athletics are not so large that they cannot
    be solved by those within the industry. At the CFBPA, we have
    developed a platform which attempts to address all of these
    problems and are ready to sit down at the bargaining table with
    administrators to discuss them.
        In my written testimony for the record, I focused on all
    seven of our proposed reforms, and I hope today to have the
    opportunity in the Q&A to address all of these. However, given
    the brevity of my oral testimony, I will only be focusing on
    two of the seven here today.
        In July 2021, college athletes for the first time had
    access to the free market to monetize their name, image, and
    likeness, NIL. The NCAA had denied college athletes this basic
    economic freedom enjoyed by every other American, spending
    millions of dollars in legal and lobbying fees to falsely keep
    athletes' NIL market value at zero.
        College athletes fought to show--and the Supreme Court
    agreed--that NCAA compensation rules violated antitrust law,
    and with the writing on the wall, the NCAA finally dropped its
    NIL monetization restrictions.
        The vast majority of evidence suggests athletes monetizing
    their NIL has had an overwhelmingly positive effect on athletes
    and their families. To the extent that there are problems in
    the NIL free market that call for new ``consumer protections,
    they are extraordinarily manageable by industry stakeholders,
    including players, through their independent players
    associations.
        It is the position of the CFBPA that the Federal Government
    should stay out of the NIL free market, as they would stay out
    of the NIL free market for every other American citizen. At the
    CFBPA, we believe that there should be no Federal Government
    legislative rollback of the gains college athletes have made in
    the NIL free market.
        If new rules and regulations are needed for athletes
    monetizing their NIL, administrators at the NCAA and in the
    conferences should sit down with players through their
    independent players associations to discuss and come to
    agreement around such changes.
        Once agreements are made, the CFBPA could assist with
    enforcement and with screening attorneys and agents to protect
    the interests of the athletes. Another related area of focus
    within our platform pertains to new media rights contracts.
    Media rights contracts for Power Five football conferences and
    the College Football Playoff championship have exploded in
    recent years and will continue to do so into the future,
    particularly with the CFP expanding from four teams to 12 in
    2024.
        In the coming years, FBS football, particularly at the
    Power Five level, will be awash in many new billions of
    dollars. The players that generate this wealth deserve to share
    in it.
        The CFBPA and independent players associations representing
    other televised sports that are part of these media rights
    deals should sit down at the bargaining table and hammer out
    revenue-sharing agreements. There will be plenty of money in
    the system to share for all those athletes whose name, image,
    and likeness are used in media broadcasts without impairing
    overall operations of athletics departments.
        Unfortunately, as it pertains to athletic departments and
    conferences, the NCAA has recently declared that they are not
    allowed to make direct NIL payments to athletes for their
    appearance in media broadcasts. Lifting this barrier would be a
    good first step to open up competition between conferences and
    individual football programs for player talent and also to
    address other flagrant systemic issues.
        Change is here in college athletics, and it is time for
    administrators at the NCAA conferences and member institutions
    to embrace this change. Player empowerment is only going to
    grow, and there can be no return to the paternalism of the past
    through Federal legislation or other matters.
        At the CFBPA, we are ready to sit down at the table with
    administrators who are interested in moving ahead into the
    future.
        Thank you.
        [The prepared statement of Mr. Stahl follows:]

    [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

        Mr. Bilirakis. I want to thank all of the witnesses for
    their testimony.
        We will move into questions--the question-and-answer
    portion of the hearing. I will begin the questioning and
    recognize myself for 5 minutes.
        Mr. Burton, thank you again for making time to be with us
    today and sharing your experience as an athlete playing at the
    highest levels, both in college and professional football. I
    appreciate it very much.
        After all, not many can say they have a Super Bowl ring or
    were nominated for player--Play of the Year at the ESPYs with
    the Philly Special. And I am not talking about cheesesteaks.
        Based on your accomplishments during your time at the
    University of Florida, it is safe to say that you would have
    had immense opportunities to earn supplemental income from NIL,
    and you mentioned that in your opening statement.
        What would this supplemental income have meant to you? And
    how would NIL have benefited you as a college football player
    and set your family up for financial success?
        Mr. Burton. Thank you. Yes. Like you said, in my testimony
    I mentioned that I got married and had a kid in my junior year.
    So I think that would have, you know, substantially--I think we
    all can agree that that would have been really beneficial for
    us, my wife through, you know, the birth process, and for
    raising up a child, obviously, is very expensive. So, you know,
    we kind of had to do our best budgeting that we possibly could
    based off of what we got from our scholarship check and from
    Pell Grant.
        But I also think that my mom was a single mother, and she
    raised three boys. And so that easily could have helped, you
    know, with whatever situation, you know, we had going on back
    then. But then, also, even going forward, I remember my last
    game of my career in college against Florida State, I separated
    my shoulder.
        And I was kind of the guy that was on the bubble, didn't
    know if I was going to make it to the NFL, didn't know what the
    next move was, but I remember sitting in my house on my rocking
    chair with my arm in a sling, and I looked at my wife and I
    said, ``We have got to be out of here in a month, because our
    scholarship checks are gone. They are done after December.''
        And so there was a lot of uncertainty, and I know for sure
    if I wouldn't have made it into the NFL, I wouldn't have had
    much money, especially I didn't save much money, didn't have
    much money to save to start out with, to continue on next--you
    know, our next venture.
        Mr. Bilirakis. Thank you very much.
        Kaley, you are also a student-athlete competing at the
    highest level of your sport and have accomplished amazing
    things in your time at the Florida State University, such as
    breaking the Women's College World Series record for hits in a
    single World Series with 14.
        Could you elaborate how NIL opportunities have benefited
    you as a current student-athlete, particularly competing in
    women's sports that don't always have the same lucrative
    professional opportunities?
        Ms. Mudge. Yes. When NIL came into play in 2021, I was
    super excited. I didn't know a lot about what the rules were
    going to be and such, but being a partial scholarship student-
    athlete has really helped me to help pay for my tuition and
    helped pay for my rent and things that I don't have the luxury
    of paying for myself.
        So NIL has definitely benefited me. And, specifically, with
    the deal with our collective being able to help me pay for
    nursing school when I am done with softball is going to be
    extremely helpful, because I won't have a partial athletic
    scholarship when I start nursing school. So NIL has benefited
    me in a lot--in a very positive way.
        Mr. Bilirakis. Thank you. Thank you very much.
        Trey, you shared in your testimony that when you were
    playing, athletes had to choose whether to make money or go to
    school to pursue an education while playing the sport of their
    dreams. I think this is an important reminder that an essential
    part of the college athlete experience is the ability to pursue
    higher education while playing the sport they love.
        What did you get out of being a student during your time
    there at the University of Florida? And how can we prevent
    disruptions to these educational benefits and this debate about
    how to treat college athletes, please?
        Mr. Burton. I mean, I got a degree, which is, you know, the
    most important during my time there. I think also, like I said,
    the relationships that I was able to have, the professionals
    that I have been able to meet with--you know, through my
    athletic scholarship and because I played football there at the
    university.
        What was your second question again? Sorry.
        Mr. Bilirakis. Yes. Well, just, you know, what did--well, I
    am just going to paraphrase. What did the University of Florida
    or any college, if you had gone to any college, offer you as a
    college athlete?
        Mr. Burton. Yes. So tutoring was by far the number-one
    thing for me that was offered. I know for sure I have a
    reading--not disability, but I have a reading problem. I am
    dyslexic, for the most part, and so like having a tutor be able
    to like talk to me in the way I needed to be taught was super
    beneficial, having them, you know, 24/7. That was probably by
    far the number-one thing that was most beneficial for me as a
    student-athlete.
        Mr. Bilirakis. Very good.
        Kaley, as a current student-athlete, do you have anything
    to add on the benefits you currently receive as a student? And
    how some proposal to change that model may affect your ability
    to continue to receive such benefits?
        Ms. Mudge. Yes. I feel that the college student-athlete
    model that we have today works. I can speak for a lot of
    athletes when I say that we have used athletics as an avenue to
    get a college degree and that having a partial scholarship
    helping to pay for college, being able to play the sport we
    love, has also given us an opportunity to get an education.
        And if that model were changed and funds could be
    redirected away from Olympic sports and away from our
    scholarships, we wouldn't be able to play the sport we love and
    we also wouldn't be able to--some of us wouldn't be able to
    afford college or go to college without the opportunities that
    we have been given as a student-athlete. So the student-athlete
    model that we have now works.
        Mr. Bilirakis. Thank you so very much.
        All right. Now I will recognize Representative Castor from
    the great State of Florida for her 5 minutes of questioning.
        Ms. Castor. Well, thank you, Chairman Bilirakis. Leave it
    to you to bring Gators and Seminoles together. And as Tampa
    Bay's congresswoman, I want to say to you, Mr. Burton, thank
    you so much for your philanthropic activities back home,
    including the Mort Elementary Community School.
        And, Ms. Mudge, as an FSU alum, I am very proud of your
    personal accomplishments and proud to watch how FSU, once known
    as a football powerhouse--and doing all right this past year--
    but they have really become a women's soccer and women's
    softball championship school, and that is not by accident.
        You said in your testimony: ``As we celebrate 50 years of
    Title IX, it is important that we ensure the opportunities for
    participation and access to higher education, particularly for
    underrepresented populations,'' that ``they are fostered and
    insured. There are many threats through legislation and
    litigation that would undermine this model.''
        Title IX did not just elevate women in collegiate sports,
    but it elevated collegiate sports overall. And my friend and
    colleague, Mrs. Trahan, is living proof of that, and she knows
    it well.
        Title IX prohibits discrimination at federally funded
    schools and in collegiate athletics. Name, image, and likeness
    policy should not undermine the progress we have made or warp
    this--the operation of this important civil rights law.
        Commissioner Heppel, do you believe that women have NIL
    opportunities as lucrative as their male counterparts? And what
    should we be thinking of as we craft some guardrails here
    federally to ensure that women and girls have every opportunity
    to participate?
        Ms. Heppel. Thank you. You know, I--the challenge in
    answering that question is that we don't know, right? We don't
    have the transparency around what is happening in the NIL
    space.
        The anecdotal evidence and some of the data through what I
    would call voluntary reporting is that, no, you know, what we
    are seeing is that NIL is being used as many--not all, I will--
    I will caveat there, but recruiting inducements to enroll out
    of high school, or--or as transfer, and that I think undermines
    what really is the great opportunity that NIL presents.
        And so the need for transparency in a national structure in
    this area--within the Patriot League, I can say that we have--
    you know, we invested as a league in a software platform where
    reporting could take place. We have--we crossed four different
    States, the District of Columbia, Army and Navy are members of
    the Patriot League, the cadets and midshipmen are Federal
    employees, so the regulations around Federal employees engaging
    in NIL is another----
        Ms. Castor. OK.
        Ms. Heppel [continuing]. Another--yes.
        Ms. Castor. Dr. Abdullah, what do you think we need to--
    what kind of guardrails do we need to have in place moving
    forward to ensure equity?
        Dr. Abdullah. You know, I think one of the critical things
    is that we need to make sure that, as students negotiate their
    NIL deals, as they work with different institutions, that the
    information is transparent, that they can compare information
    from one institution and/or collective to another.
        And I think if we are able to do that, then students and
    student-athletes can successfully negotiate their value on a
    higher level.
        Ms. Castor. OK. Ms. Mudge?
        Ms. Mudge. Yes. I think for guardrails I think it is just--
    it would be very helpful for a level playing field. Just with
    what we have now, with different States having different rules,
    I think that can completely alter where recruits want to choose
    their schools based on what State has certain laws.
        And I think even with the transfer portal, like people
    deciding where they want to go, and I think it would be very
    helpful if we just had Federal guardrails and legislation to
    keep everybody on the same page to have a level playing field.
        Specifically, I can think of transparency with fair market
    value. I personally don't know my fair market value. I had
    never been taught that. I still haven't. And having the
    education to know how much I could ask would be very helpful in
    the guardrails.
        Ms. Castor. And, Mr. Chun, you had said only 16.2 percent
    of NIL deals go to female athletes. My--I am out of time, but
    could you provide some guidance in writing for the committee on
    this Title IX inequity issue?
        Mr. Chun. Yes.
        Ms. Castor. Thank you very much.
        I yield back.
        Mr. Bilirakis. Thank you. Thank you.
        Now I will recognize the chairperson of the full committee
    and a great friend of mine, and I appreciate her giving me the
    opportunity to chair this subcommittee. So I want to recognize
    my friend, Cathy McMorris Rodgers, for 5 minutes.
        Mrs. Rodgers. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And, Mr. Bilirakis,
    you are doing an awesome job leading us. Thank you for today's
    hearing.
        I wanted to start with Mr. Chun. Just thank you for being
    here again. And while there are certainly differences in
    resources, even within the Power Five, you represent an
    institution with lots of resources for their student-athletes.
        Would you just walk us through the ways that you are
    helping support and educate young student-athletes at WSU as
    they are approached by agents, collectives, and large-dollar
    NIL deals?
        Mr. Chun. Well, first and foremost, Madam Chair, thank you
    for the leadership you provide to eastern Washington, and we
    appreciate your leadership on this topic.
        At Washington State, our goal is to empower, educate, and
    protect our student-athletes. Our program is actually similar
    to what is going on at Florida State. We take great pride in,
    prior to the NCAA, allowing NIL. We partnered with our Carson
    College of Business. We have a credited course on campus that
    goes through all of the--all of the major points of NIL from
    tax education, managing your social media, contracts. So that
    is really probably our biggest piece.
        We also have full-time staff that we currently employ that
    works directly with our student-athletes. As you are aware, in
    the State of Washington we do not have an NIL law.
        So we are--we are governed by State ethics laws, so that is
    prohibitive on what we can do in terms of directing our
    student-athletes with collectives and with deals, but
    ultimately we provide as much education and introductions as
    possible with our student-athletes while complying with Title
    IX NCAA rules and State of Washington rules.
        Mrs. Rodgers. Thank you. Would you speak to what you
    believe would become of school programs, conferences, if we
    fail to provide Federal certainty to the NIL landscape? And how
    do you see the NCAA factoring into this future?
        Mr. Chun. Well, let me make clear: A true NIL is
    extraordinarily positive for student-athletes, and that needs
    to continue. It is what is going on with recruiting inducements
    with some of these collectives that ultimately are fraudulent
    in what they are doing with NIL. And that is--I mean, I read
    this morning tracking on Florida Atlantic University--I used to
    work there--and their extraordinary run to the Final Four.
        In The Palm Beach Post this morning, the head coach is
    already talking about tampering by third parties to his
    existing roster. That has been happening for weeks. And we have
    rules today in the NCAA that don't allow tampering, that don't
    allow inducements, but because of the disparate State laws, the
    NCAA is at a point now where it is incapable of enforcing those
    rules.
        So where this thing heads is concerning, because as we
    continue to spiral away from any type of commonality with
    recruiting, with the impact it is having on student-athletes in
    terms of just the amount of noise they have to deal with, as
    stated earlier, the value of the degree is what our focus is on
    in higher education.
        But I do see--I do see impacts. If where we are headed
    ultimately leads to, you know, five conferences or a subset of
    schools in those five conferences having to deal with this
    environment in a different way, does have a negative impact on
    the rest of Division I, Division II, and Division III. I mean,
    it is clear the business model of NCAA is what we will see this
    weekend at the men's Final Four. That funds the entire
    operation.
        Mrs. Rodgers. Thank you. Thank you.
        Dr. Abdullah, does Virginia State have the resources to
    support student-athletes in the same way that bigger schools
    do? And are athletes seeing the same level of NIL deal
    engagement?
        Dr. Abdullah. No. Thank you, Madam Chairwoman. No, ma'am.
    Virginia State University, as a Division II institution, we
    support our athletes and our athletic program almost entirely
    on student fees. The amount of funds that the students have in
    terms of scholarships and the facilities is quite a bit
    different than you would find at a Power Five conference, and
    the level of NIL deals that our students have is quite a bit
    different.
        We do not have an NIL collective at Virginia State
    University, and so many of our athletes are successfully trying
    to negotiate their own value on the open market. If you----
        Mrs. Rodgers. Thank you. Very good.
        And, Ms. Mudge, just in the time remaining, would you speak
    to Title IX and just how you believe--or just how it can
    potentially be reversed in coming years if we don't get this
    right?
        Ms. Mudge. Yes. I think that Title IX has definitely paved
    the way, and I am super grateful for those who have paved the
    way before me. And I have had a great experience in my 4 years
    as a college athlete, and I would hate to see it reversed by
    new models coming in to take away opportunities for the Olympic
    sports, especially for women's sports as well.
        So I would hate to see college athletes not have the
    experience that I have in the future, so I am just grateful for
    everything that I have gotten through Title IX.
        Mrs. Rodgers. Thank you all for being here. I yield back.
        Mr. Walberg [presiding]. I thank the chairman for yielding
    back. And as a former wrestler, I am very attentive to the
    clock. There were times I wanted to hear that horn sound.
        [Laughter.]
        Mr. Walberg. And so I will warn my colleagues I am not--I
    am not quite as deferential as our chairman of the
    subcommittee, so we are going to keep to clock here.
        And so now I turn over 5 minutes of questioning to the
    ranking member, Representative Schakowsky.
        Ms. Schakowsky. I am nervous now. OK. I am watching. I am
    moving actually a little away from you. No.
        So I wanted to ask Mr. Stahl a couple of questions. I am
    wondering--and you are representing Players Association.
        Dr. Stahl. Yes, ma'am.
        Ms. Schakowsky. Yes. What specific things should college
    sports do to improve the healthcare and the safety of our
    student-athletes?
        Dr. Stahl. Well, I will speak specifically to our football
    player members, the CFBPA. I think twofold--first, we should
    look at the practice environment. We have a platform plank that
    is structured around this. I think the practices environment
    right now is pretty much under the control of a coach. Some
    coaches are caring; some coaches are not.
        And I think that having independent third-party
    representatives from CFBPA in those practice environments,
    making sure rules and regulations regarding health and safety
    were followed, particularly in football where we all know that
    brain injuries are so prevalent. They are prevalent most in the
    practice situation. So that is what I would say, first.
        Second, I think postplaying career, health protections are
    integral. Mr. Burton's story I think was one I hear a lot from
    our alumni members, quite frankly. Justin Falcinelli is sitting
    behind me. He has a very similar injury story of getting an
    injury one of the last games of the season. You are going to go
    on, you have these NFL dreams, and then what?
        And so I think there is this question, then, of what is the
    responsibility of the NCAA? Or what is the responsibility of
    the member institutions or the conference? We think guaranteed
    healthcare standardized across the industry would be a good
    starting point.
        Access to hospitals and clinics that are on these
    universities and campuses I think would be integral to long-
    term care, and then also brain injuries, which show up
    sometimes decades--you know, after effects from brain injuries,
    sometimes decades after they happen.
        Ms. Schakowsky. Do you think--are you thinking also about
    CTE, not just about concussion?
        Dr. Stahl. I mean, I know there is a lot of debate around
    CTE. I very much prefer to use the term ``brain injury.'' I
    have used it several times here----
        Ms. Schakowsky. OK.
        Mr. Stahl [continuing]. In part because I think it gets us
    out of political debates around CTE.
        Ms. Schakowsky. OK.
        Dr. Stahl. I think, though, we see and see this in our
    alumni members. I can't tell you the number of men I have had
    discussions with at 30, 40, 50, 60, still suffering from those
    brain injuries that they incurred in college. And we are here
    not talking about people like Mr. Burton who went on to the
    NFL. We are talking about people strictly with a college
    playing career.
        Ms. Schakowsky. So let me ask you this. Do you think that
    collective bargaining would be helpful for student-athletes?
        Dr. Stahl. I do. I think there is a number of forums
    collective bargaining could take, though. I am cognizant of
    what new NCAA President Charlie Baker said, that there's sort
    of two tiers that seem to be happening here. I think long term,
    as we look at the evolution of college football, that could be
    where we are going.
        And so as we think about collective bargaining, a formal
    collective bargaining effort through unions, through union
    chapters, or through a union at the conference level, let's
    say, like we--we have attempted to do in the past, would be
    important for those programs at the highest level of play here.
    I am talking about what are called Power Five football
    programs.
        But we have members from all levels of play, and so I think
    that is important to talk about. So I think what is appropriate
    for a Power Five program or a Power Five conference is not
    going to be appropriate for levels on down. But of course those
    members need a players association as well, and they need
    collective bargaining. I do believe at those levels, though, it
    could be done on a voluntary basis.
        We have already started doing some of that. We have a core
    group of members at a Division I FCS school, and at that school
    I have had conversations with the coach that I would
    characterize as informal collective bargaining around issues
    that are central to our members at that program. So our members
    came to us and said, ``We are not getting proper nutrition.''
        So, you know, there is a way in which we listen to our
    members, and then the bargaining that we would do is dependent
    upon what they want to do.
        Ms. Schakowsky. Thank you for that. You know, billions and
    billions of dollars is involved in student athletics. Not every
    institution--I understand that--and not every sport, but we
    certainly want to do more, I think, to protect our student-
    athletes. I really appreciate that. I also just--well, I guess
    I was going to thank Kathy Castor for taking my seat, and I
    really thank all of the witnesses. Want to work more with you
    as we move forward.
        Thank you so much. Thank you.
        Dr. Stahl. Thank you, ma'am.
        Mr. Walberg. I thank the gentlelady for setting the charted
    course now with 4 seconds left to spare.
        Ms. Schakowsky. You threatened me.
        Mr. Walberg. I would never threaten you.
        [Laughter.]
        Mr. Walberg. I am not that brave.
        I want to recognize now for his 5 minutes for questioning
    the gentleman from Indiana, Dr. Bucshon.
        Mr. Bucshon. Well, thank you very much, and thanks for this
    hearing. It is very timely.
        Since coming to Congress, I have had the opportunity to
    participate in several hearings related to this issue--back in
    2014, related to the attempted unionization of Northwestern
    University athletes, is what I am going to comment on.
        During my time on the Education and Workforce Committee, I
    got to speak with former all-American student-athletes from low
    income backgrounds who went on to play professional sports.
    They told me about how, when they were in school, however,
    despite full scholarships, they couldn't afford a host of
    personal expenses, including one of them described going out
    for pizza with his friends, his friends paid for that type of
    thing because he didn't have the money.
        But I also feel like from that hearing and all of the
    testimony that an employment model for student-athletes creates
    all kinds of unintended consequences and would be very
    difficult to maintain the integrity of the student-athlete
    system as we know it today. But stories like this are why the
    advent of NIL deals occurred and why earnings for such athletes
    can be and will be a positive thing.
        I am fully supportive of individuals being able to
    participate in the free market and to be able to earn what they
    can and determine their value as you described.
        While I believe we need a system that accommodates such
    opportunities, I also recognize the need to preserve the
    student-athlete model, as I mentioned, that is relied upon by
    the overwhelming majority of athletes. Like many of my
    colleagues on this committee, I represent universities with
    NCAA Division I athletic programs.
        I proudly represent the University of Evansville and
    Indiana State University, members of the Missouri Valley
    Conference, one of 32 NCAA Division I multisport conferences,
    as well as the University of Southern Indiana, which is
    currently transitioning from Division II into Division I.
        Though you may not have seen many Valley teams competing on
    TV or know that its top athletes continue to compete at a
    professional, Olympic, and Paralympic levels, the Valley is
    representative of the typical collegiate athletic experience
    for most student-athletes across the country. They attend
    classes, they graduate, and they compete for championships
    across 17 sports at the Division I level.
        There are approximately 200,000 student-athletes competing
    in Division I. Eighty percent of them are thriving and finding
    tremendous success in conferences similar to the Missouri
    Valley.
        So, Dr. Abdullah, I recognize there are differences in the
    levels of student support available from schools whose athletic
    programs do and do not generate revenue. Is there a risk of
    young athletes unintentionally locking themselves out of
    financial aid or future NIL opportunities if resources are
    limited, especially at smaller schools?
        Dr. Abdullah. Thank you, sir, for the question.
        Mr. Bucshon. If that makes sense.
        Dr. Abdullah. It does. It does. You know, I think it is
    critically important that we provide the right opportunities
    for our students. One of the things that my athletic director
    tells me all the time is that we have to be--we have to be wary
    of those who purport to protect student-athletes, and instead
    what we need to do at Virginia State is to provide them with
    the knowledge and information, so that they can protect
    themselves.
        I have run into a gentleman today--yesterday at the hotel,
    Mr. Jamar Samuels, who was unfortunate--had an unfortunate
    incident in 2012 where he was ruled ineligible for accepting
    $200. At that time--we all know that before NIL that all of us
    were dealing with rules and regulations that we thought to
    purport to protect students--student-athletes, and in fact they
    weren't doing that.
        And so I think that with transparency, even those schools
    that have limited resources such as ours, that we can compete
    on the open market, albeit quite differently than some of our
    colleagues here, and that we can provide quality opportunities
    for those young people who choose to come to Virginia State
    University.
        Mr. Bucshon. Sure. We don't want athletes to make mistakes
    that would compromise their futures.
        Ms. Heppel, do you believe that institutions distributing
    NIL support resources should do so among all student-athletes
    and not just those participating in revenue-generating sports?
        Ms. Heppel. Thank you. Absolutely. I mean, what we are
    talking about are educational resources and tools to be
    successful in life as a student, but then beyond, and those
    should be equally accessible to all student-athlete
    participants.
        Mr. Bucshon. You know, what are some potential guardrails
    to consider to ensure that institutions do not focus the
    overwhelming majority of their NIL support resources for
    athletes to revenue-generating sports? I mean, it is a tough--
    it is a tough problem, right?
        Ms. Heppel. Well, but it is consistent with challenges, and
    we already, as leaders in athletics, focus on the well-being of
    all of our student-athletes, regardless of the sport. Thank
    you.
        Mr. Bucshon. Thank you. I yield back.
        Mr. Duncan [presiding]. The gentleman's time has expired.
    The Chair will now recognize Ms. Blunt Rochester for 5 minutes.
        Ms. Blunt Rochester. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. While I was
    not an athlete, I did graduate from the Cinderella school that
    busted everyone's bracket, Fairleigh Dickinson University, and
    I was born in Philadelphia. So on behalf of all of us, we thank
    you, Mr. Burton, for the Philly Special.
        Thank you to all of the witnesses here for your testimony,
    and I am glad that we are having this very important
    conversation about the rights and protections of collegiate
    athletes. Since 2021, we have taken large strides forward on
    the right to benefit from one's own name, image, and likeness.
        Still, we are faced with significant questions on how we
    should continue to support the rights of collegiate athletes
    and ensure they have the right tools to make the best decisions
    possible.
        Dr. Abdullah, thank you for your testimony and for your
    work advocating for HBCUs. As the only member of the House from
    Delaware, I have the privilege of representing Delaware State
    University here in Congress, and I want to acknowledge your
    role on the Presidential Board of Advisors for HBCUs that is
    chaired by Delaware's own DSU President, Dr. Tony Allen.
        Dr. Abdullah, if a Federal NIL standard were to be
    developed, what key provisions would you suggest be included to
    help ensure that athletes at midsized schools, smaller schools,
    and historically black colleges and universities in particular
    are protected and afforded the best opportunity to succeed?
        Dr. Abdullah. Thank you so much, ma'am. It is important to
    note that there are over 500,000 athletes that participate in
    NCAA championship sports. And many of those athletes are at
    Division II, Division III, and smaller midmajor institutions in
    Division I.
        And so designing rules and regulations that are, one,
    transparent, but also take into account that there are many
    different sizes of institutions that generate quite different
    revenue, who offer different sports, but to make sure that we
    can provide protection--NIL protection--for all of those
    students through transparency.
        Ms. Blunt Rochester. In your testimony, you stated the
    importance of providing athletes with the proper tools to
    manage the responsibilities that come with NIL deals. Ahead of
    this hearing, I heard from a group of athletes on Delaware
    State University's Student-Athlete Advisory Committee about how
    difficult it is to navigate NIL deals and the need for
    increased resources and support for athletes interested in
    benefiting from them.
        Can you talk specifically about what kind of resources or
    tools would support HBCUs, such as yourself, and as you support
    the athletes navigating these to make sure that they are
    protected?
        Dr. Abdullah. Our institution, through our athletic
    director, Mrs. Peggy Davis, does a lot of the same things that
    our other institutions do in terms of providing quality
    education for students. But our SAAC director also, Ms. Alexis
    Baker, mentioned the same thing as the students from Delaware
    State, that really a lack of transparency, not knowing the
    rules in different States, not knowing whether she is getting
    the best deal in Virginia or whether she should be getting a
    deal somewhere else, is critically important. And so
    transparency is critical.
        Ms. Blunt Rochester. I think that issue of transparency and
    also the patchwork nature of what is happening is also very
    confusing.
        How can we make sure that the competitive disadvantage many
    HBCUs and HBCU athletes face as a result of these limited
    resources is not exacerbated by NIL?
        Dr. Abdullah. Ma'am, I will tell you this. We are proud to
    compete against everybody all the time. Whether it is
    facilities or resources or coaches, we are always at a
    competitive disadvantage in many aspects, but we are proud to
    compete. And what we don't want to happen--we want to make sure
    that young people have access to find the way to find their
    true value and to get their resources, and we would not want to
    hold that back.
        Ms. Blunt Rochester. Thank you.
        And, Mr. Stahl, you mentioned in your testimony that
    Dartmouth College is employing a new technology to eliminate
    players on the same team hitting one another during practice.
    Can you explain this technology in a bit more detail? And is
    there--is this something that you think should be scaled up
    more broadly? Are there other emerging technologies that show
    promise as well for safety and the experience of the collegiate
    athlete?
        Dr. Stahl. I greatly appreciate that question. Yes, I do
    think they should be scaled up. Absolutely. It is--in terms of
    cost, I was shocked recently to find out that--so what they use
    effectively are robot tackling dummies. They cost about $6,000
    each. And so we had somebody from our organization who did this
    research to find out, OK, where do these exist, right? There
    are some in the pros.
        In terms of the top tier of, you know, thinking about Power
    Five schools, they are in use at Michigan. Dartmouth, we really
    do feel, you know, the Ivy League in particular is at the
    forefront here of using this type of technology and showing
    that you can win--they have won many Ivy League championships
    despite the fact that they are--or I would say because they are
    using this technology and practice.
        Ms. Blunt Rochester. Well, thank you for your answer. We
    will follow up after this as well----
        Dr. Stahl. Please.
        Ms. Blunt Rochester [continuing]. To get more details, and
    I yield back.
        Mr. Duncan. The gentlelady yields back.
        I will now recognize myself for 5 minutes. We are on our
    third chairman today, but I am glad to be chairing this. I have
    followed the NIL issue for quite a long time here in Congress.
        So as my wife who is in the room with us today can attest,
    I am a college football junkie. And Washington State
    University, my son and I watch, that is our late-night game on
    the East Coast, especially during the 7 years that Mike Leach
    was there, rest his soul, and enjoy WSU football.
        I will say that I understand that NIL is here to stay, but
    I align myself with some comments Jake Sherman made today in
    Punchbowl Sports when he said the ability of college athletes
    to get paid while they compete has changed the landscape of
    amateur athletics. And I agree with that.
        I appreciate the amateurism of college sports at all
    levels. I say I am a college football junkie, but I like
    college sports in general.
        As the proud elected representative of South Carolina's 3rd
    Congressional District, I have the distinct honor of
    representing Clemson University, home to the 2016 and 2018
    college football national champions. And I am glad Buddy Carter
    isn't here. I don't want to hear about the Georgia Bulldogs. We
    hear enough of that. Many of our Tigers have gone on to
    illustrious careers in the NFL.
        In your written testimonies, Director Chun asked us to
    develop Federal standards that provide transparency and
    enforceable safeguards to mitigate the negative impact of
    existing NIL environment. Commissioner Heppel stipulates the
    need for development of a national standard around NIL rights.
        Mr. Burton testifies that--to the need to establish a
    uniform set of rules with clear guidelines with an eye to pay-
    to-play issues and recruiting. And Ms. Mudge says that it is
    imperative that we have uniform guidelines and expectations
    relative to NIL as opposed to the current framework, and also
    with an eye towards potential recruiting problems.
        I think that is remarkable--a current athlete, a former
    athlete, an athletic director, and a league commissioner in
    unanimous agreement on the need for a national standard.
        So, Commissioner Heppel, let me start off with
    acknowledging something that I think I heard you say, and that
    is there is a value of a scholarship and the benefits provided
    by the university to college athletes that is often left out of
    this debate. They are already getting some value.
        And, as Mr. Burton said, the value of that college degree
    to go on--and even Ms. Mudge, to go on to a nursing degree and
    career, there is value in that, and that needs to be kept in
    the forefront as we talk about this.
        I am afraid that the redistribution of revenues will affect
    the ability of universities to fund some of the lower--I say
    lower-tier, they are not--but lower-tier athletic programs,
    other than college football, college basketball and baseball,
    and some sports.
        So, Commissioner Heppel, as a league commissioner, what
    should the standards look like?
        Ms. Heppel. Thank you, I think. The--no, I mean, I--it is
    the key question. I would say that we have to start with what
    NIL is not and should not be used as, which is recruiting
    inducements and pay-for-play.
        Mr. Duncan. Right.
        Ms. Heppel. And clearly have regulations that preclude
    that, which we do now in the NCAA structure. But, as you noted,
    the patchwork of State laws around NIL specifically make that
    hard to enforce at a national level, and this is national
    competition.
        Mr. Duncan. And, look, I agree with you. I mean, the
    coaches that are recruiting--and now we are going to have
    alumni participating in that--I came through right after the
    Charley Pell years at Clemson University, where recruiting
    violations by alumni and booster clubs caused us to go on
    probation right after our national championship.
        I want to move to Mr. Stahl. The ACC Student-Athlete
    Advisory Committee in its letter of March 28th states, ``A pay-
    for-play model would exacerbate the disparities faced in
    women's sports and historically black colleges and universities
    as funds will have to be redirected from nonrevenue-generating
    sports to almost entirely football and men's basketball. Even
    at Power Five level, roughly half of athletic departments run a
    deficit annually.
        ``Directly compensating student-athletes will further
    expose challenges to sustain other sports, potentially
    forfeiting opportunities for thousands of prospective student-
    athletes in years to come. In essence, the college model must
    remain unchanged. Congress would do a disservice to student-
    athlete sports culture and American society in general if it
    passes a bill that diminishes the educational opportunities
    that leave schools no choice but to reduce scholarships or cut
    programs to budget reallocations.''
        Mr. Stahl, unless you can point to a previously unknown
    source of funding that keeps these other sports funded as they
    are today, I am not willing to kill the aspirations of so many
    young athletes who don't play football. Can you speak to that?
        Dr. Stahl. What is the question specifically?
        Mr. Duncan. So, you know, if you're reallocation--
    reallocating these funds, how are the softball players, the
    hockey players, the lacrosse, the track and field, how are they
    going to be funded? And would this not limit opportunities for
    student-athletes at these universities to have the opportunity
    to get a scholarship, attend a college, and reap the benefits
    that Mr. Burton and Ms. Mudge have?
        Dr. Stahl. OK. So there is a levels-of-play question for--
    here for sure. And there is new money coming in. So the media
    rights contracts that are coming down the pipe now, and all the
    Power Five conferences, college football playoff system, we are
    talking about many, many, many new billions of dollars.
        Mr. Duncan. Well, that is----
        Dr. Stahl. The idea----
        Mr. Duncan [continuing]. Power Five.
        Let's go to Dr. Abdullah. How is your university going to
    navigate all that? My time is way over, but quickly.
        Dr. Abdullah. I think we--again, our university is
    primarily based on student fees. We are managing it now. We are
    managing it through NIL, and we believe that transparency will
    help athletes be able to determine their value.
        Mr. Duncan. OK. Thank you.
        My time is up. I will go to Mr. Soto from Florida for 5
    minutes.
        Mr. Soto. Thank you, Chairman. You know, college sports is
    now a $16.6 billion industry. Just incredible when you think
    about those numbers. And I want to thank my fellow Floridian
    and Chairman Bilirakis for inviting both UF and FSU to this
    panel. Let it not be said this committee is not fair and
    balanced. That led to a whole rivalry discussion in my office,
    so thank you to Gus for that one.
        And we have two teams in the Final Four, Miami and FAU,
    which also is worthy of discussing how proud we are of both of
    those programs.
        Many athletes come from communities of color or
    socioeconomically disadvantaged communities in college sports--
    obviously not everyone--and we have seen it become a volatile
    combo over the years with--prior to NIL--name, image,
    likeness--compensation being established.
        When I was in the Florida Senate, FSU was heading into the
    championship, and a major player had legal trouble--a minor
    theft--in the midst of all this stuff, because that player
    lived in nearly abject poverty, being surrounded by money on
    all sides, from students and boosters to universities. And it
    just struck me how this person could help lead this amazing
    program and still lack basic funds that your average FSU
    student had.
        And so, in 2021, Florida establishes the new law, first,
    establishing an NIL statute. And then they made some reforms in
    2023, which I wanted to ask some of our folks about first, that
    allows the universities to be involved in setting up
    endorsement deals should the college athlete like that want
    that to happen.
        Two, financial literacy, life skills, and entrepreneurial
    workshops. Now NIL contracts can last longer than the period of
    that athlete's collegiate career, and college athletes and
    their representatives no longer need to disclose the athlete's
    contracts to the schools should they not.
        So my first question is for Ms. Mudge. Florida law we
    talked about has this financial literacy, life skills, and
    entrepreneurial workshops requirement. Did you participate in
    those workshops? Were those helpful for you or for some of your
    colleagues?
        Ms. Mudge. Yes. I am not sure if these are the workshops
    you are talking about or not, but we were given a lot of
    information from our compliance department. And also, having
    teammates that are in the NIL courses from Florida State
    University, they have learned a lot about how to read
    contracts, how to negotiate deals, and just the new world of
    how to make a brand for yourself.
        I am not particularly sure on which workshops you might be
    discussing, but I just feel, as a student-athlete, especially
    at Florida State, they have given us a lot of information of
    how to go about the new NIL world.
        Mr. Soto. Sure. And that definitely sounds like the results
    of the new statutes. So thank you, Ms. Mudge.
        Dr. Abdullah, do you think these types of workshops would
    be helpful nationwide?
        Dr. Abdullah. I think they definitely would be helpful
    nationwide. And given that our academic institutions--and I
    know we all are doing it, but the fact that we are involved in
    education--I mean, that is the critical part, and I think it is
    very important that we continue to provide guidance for young
    people to be able to maximize their value.
        Mr. Soto. And, Mr. Burton, you have had the amazing honor
    from your hard work of both playing on the collegiate level and
    on the NFL level. How important do you think early on getting
    some of this financial direction would be, given your
    experience with some of your colleagues from college, and then
    going into the NFL?
        Mr. Burton. Yes. I think it is extremely important. Knowing
    what I know now, you know, if I did have NIL, you know, after
    playing 7 years in the league and doing endorsement deals and
    marketing deals and contracts, I would have been a completely
    different person.
        So I think, you know, now that guys are--men and women are
    starting to get paid, before it was important but you didn't
    really know what you didn't know, you know? Like I went to--I
    went to classes at Florida about taxes, but I didn't really
    understand what taxes were until I got to the NFL and, you
    know, half my check is gone. So I think they are extremely
    important.
        Mr. Soto. It depends on what State you live in, for the
    record. And, well, Mr. Burton, you may have a career teaching
    NIL financial literacy to one of Florida's local universities,
    so----
        Mr. Burton. I would love that.
        Mr. Soto [continuing]. We certainly appreciate that.
        The other thing I want to talk about briefly is, you know,
    college sports is glorious but also is dangerous. You can get
    injuries that last for years. And so, Mr. Stahl, or Dr. Stahl,
    do college sports help support healthcare needs of former
    athletes suffering from these injuries after their playing
    career is over?
        Dr. Stahl. Not as well as they should. I think there really
    needs to be a uniform nation--we were talking a lot about
    uniform nationwide standards regarding NIL. And I think what we
    should actually be talking about is uniform nationwide
    standards regarding healthcare after players are done with
    their playing days.
        Mr. Soto. Thank you, Dr. Stahl.
        It is clear we need national rules eventually. Our States
    are our workshops on this right now. But I would encourage the
    chairman to continue onward for nationwide standards to avoid
    this asymmetry in competition we heard a lot about earlier
    today.
        And I yield back.
        Mr. Bilirakis [presiding]. Thank you. Appreciate it very
    much.
        All right. Now I recognize the vice chairman of the
    subcommittee, Mr. Walberg, my good friend from Michigan.
        Mr. Walberg. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and now I find out
    maybe I could have had my five shoulder surgeries taken care
    of.
        Appreciate all the witnesses being here today. It is a
    topic that--it is past its time of addressing. In 2021, the
    State of Michigan passed a name and image and likeness law for
    our colleges and institutions. Go Blue, Go Green. But Michigan
    is only one State in the patchwork of State NIL laws and is
    causing confusion across conferences.
        We need to establish clear rules of the road, so athletes,
    colleges, and advertisers can all benefit. The radical National
    Labor Relations Board--that is my own opinion--in 2021 issued a
    memo where the general counsel alleged that student-athletes
    had been misclassified and are in fact employees at the
    academic institutions.
        As a member of the Education and Workforce Committee who
    has jurisdiction over this topic, I have heard from smaller
    schools in Michigan, such as Adrian College, a school that
    blossomed from 800 students to 1,700 students in a short period
    of time due to upgrading their athletic programs to over 50
    teams, 70 percent of their scholar athletes are involved in
    those teams, ranging from of course football and basketball,
    lacrosse, hockey, women's hockey, women's synchronized
    swimming, Esports, and even bass fishing, which is a revenue
    producer for the college.
        Sports grew this institution as well as its academic
    facilities, chemistry labs, business facilities, et cetera.
        Ms. Heppel, the Patriot League competes at the Division I
    level amongst schools like Mr. Chun's. But as your testimony
    shares, your league represents a diverse group of institutions,
    many of whom see reclassifying student-athletes as an employee
    as the breaking point for sponsorship of athletic programs.
        Can you share more on why many of your institutions have
    come to this conclusion?
        Ms. Heppel. Thank you. Athletics is conducted and
    considered an important cocurricular activity on our campus. It
    is part of the educational process and the experience that the
    student-athletes receive for being students and being fully
    engaged in campus life. That is not an employer-employee
    relationship. That is an institutional experience being
    provided to a student--to the student body.
        So it would be incompatible to consider the student-athlete
    an employee in that type of relationship.
        Mr. Walberg. Dr. Abdullah, would you care to answer that as
    well?
        Dr. Abdullah. We have tons of extracurricular activities on
    campus, including an award-winning marching band, our debate
    club, as well as our student athletics. And so for us, a
    university that is committed to amateurism and in a conference
    that is committed to amateurism, that would be inconsistent for
    Virginia State University.
        Mr. Walberg. Appreciate that. In 2014, the NLRB was
    involved with the Northwestern football players' effort to
    unionize their teams. In 2022, the NLRB was again involved in
    an effort to upend the current collegiate sports model.
        Dr. Stahl, your organization was involved in a recent
    effort to unionize the football team at Penn State. Would you
    rather student-athletes unionize, or would you rather there not
    be student-athletes at all?
        Dr. Stahl. It is up to them. Whatever our members want is
    what we try to do. And so our members tell us different things.
    When we were organizing Penn State, we actually had a two-tier
    campaign.
        The second tier said if there is not voluntary recognition
    of what we are trying to do, if there is not a coming to the
    table voluntarily with coaches, with administrators on campus,
    with the commissioner of the Big Ten, then, yes, we might have
    to go that more formal route.
        But we came out with our hand extended. We said--because
    that is what the members wanted to do at Penn State.
        Mr. Walberg. At Penn State, they made that choice to not--
    --
        Dr. Stahl. That is correct.
        Mr. Walberg [continuing]. Not unionize. OK.
        Dr. Stahl. No. They made the choice to have the
    unionization option as the backup option.
        Mr. Walberg. As a backup option.
        Mr. Chun, would you like to respond to Dr. Stahl on that
    issue? And if collective bargaining were to take place, what
    resources would have to be relegated, perhaps to the detriment
    of students?
        Mr. Chun. Complicated question.
        Mr. Walberg. And I only have 11 seconds, 10 seconds.
        Mr. Chun. I mean, ultimately, we are in a model that puts a
    primacy on academics, broad-based programming opportunities for
    men and women across multiple sports. Anything that--you look
    to my right, how do you--how is a football player unionized or
    an employee and a softball player isn't?
        We can all sit here and know the inputs are the same. She
    is putting as much time in as he did on the--in the weightroom,
    in the classroom, in the practice field. There is no difference
    other than the venues in which they play in and the amount of
    viewership. That is it.
        Mr. Walberg. Thank you.
        Thank you. I yield back.
        Mr. Bilirakis. Thank you very much.
        I will recognize the gentlelady from New York, Ms. Clarke.
        Ms. Clarke. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman, and I thank
    our ranking member. I thank our panelists for being here today
    and for really shedding light on a topic that has taken on
    great resonance across this--across this Nation.
        Recognizing collegiate athletes' name, image, and likeness
    rights is a step in the right direction. But it would be a
    mistake for this committee not to recognize and address what I
    think is the root issue, and that is the empowerment of
    collegiate athletes.
        I was just having a conversation with my colleague, Mrs.
    Trahan, and we are talking about collegiate when in fact the
    recruitment of these students starts in their high school
    years, right? So if we really want to look at the type of
    branding, information, and education, it kind of has to begin
    in their high school careers, where they are truly on a track
    for that type of education.
        But having said that, this multibillion-dollar collegiate
    sports industry is built, I believe, off the backs of our
    students, mostly black and brown, collegiate athletes, and the
    benefits that they have received are very few. The current
    system is premised both on collegiate athletes' disempowerment
    and unpaid labor, a system some--like sports commentator Bomani
    Jones--has termed ``legalized exploitation.''
        I think we are at the stage where that tipping point has
    been set, and I am hoping that we can move expeditiously to end
    the practice.
        Mr. Chair, I ask unanimous consent to enter into the record
    the March 21st New York Times op-ed entitled ``Even the Supreme
    Court Can't Save the NCAA from Itself.''
        Mr. Bilirakis. Without objection, so ordered.
        [The information appears at the conclusion of the hearing.]
        Ms. Clarke. Thank you very much.
        In the recent Alston v. NCAA ruling by the Supreme Court,
    Justice Brett Kavanaugh wrote in a concurring opinion that
    ``the current NCAA model is suppressing the pay of student-
    athletes who collectively generate billions of dollars in
    revenues for colleges every year.''
        Those enormous sums of money flow to seemingly everyone
    except student-athletes. College presidents, athletic
    directors, coaches, conference commissioners, and NCAA
    executives take in six- and seven-figure salaries. Colleges
    build lavish new facilities, but the students who generate the
    revenues, many of whom are African American and from lower-
    income backgrounds, end up with little to nothing.
        Mr. Chun, what are your thoughts on Justice Kavanaugh's
    observations? Is that an accurate characterization of the
    current system?
        Mr. Chun. The primacy of academic is the number-one
    priority of college athletics. The greatest factor today in
    social mobility is still a college education.
        Our business model is flawed. On most campuses, it is one,
    maybe two sports, at least at our level, that provide resources
    and revenues to fund the rest of the athletic department. And,
    oh, by the way, we are legally obligated to follow Title IX. So
    access, opportunity, there has to be equity.
        So the model that we have currently provides extraordinary
    opportunities for multiple student-athletes. And, oddly enough,
    the segment of--there is a certain segment of schools, because
    of this men's basketball tournament, that provide opportunities
    like Dr. Abdullah said to half a million student-athletes
    across 1,200 institutions across three divisions.
        So there are inherent flaws in the model. I recognize that.
    But the reality is, is it--those flaws are--have created this
    opportunity for endless, countless student-athletes.
        Ms. Clarke. Very well.
        What are your thoughts on Justice Kavanaugh's observations,
    Mr. Stahl? Dr. Stahl.
        Dr. Stahl. I obviously largely agree with him. I want to--
    do want to respond to something that Mr. Chun said, and it has
    been repeated, you know, throughout this panel: the supremacy
    of the sort of academic mission of the student-athlete, of
    higher education, and so on and so forth. I mean, I just think
    we all need to acknowledge that that has been severely
    degraded.
        As you get new billions of dollars into the system, what
    becomes of paramount importance is making more of that money,
    exercising the power that that money gives you. And so athletes
    then, you know, just very base level, like getting to choose
    the major they want to, right, this is more and more rare,
    particularly for sports like football. Many, many stories I
    have heard of, I agree, it should be--it should continue to be
    at the center of the vision for college athletics.
        But because of these enormous financial pressures on the
    system, it is not. And we really do need to address that and
    remedy the ways in which I think many college athletes quite
    simply just don't get to pick the academic major they want.
        Ms. Clarke. Thank you so much, Dr. Stahl.
        I yield back.
        Mr. Bilirakis. The gentlelady yields back.
        I now will recognize Dr. Dunn from the State of Florida----
        Mr. Dunn. Thanks very much----
        Mr. Bilirakis [continuing]. For your 5 minutes.
        Mr. Dunn. [continuing]. Mr. Chairman. After listening to
    this excellent panel today, it is abundantly clear that the
    patchwork regulatory system for the NIL licenses is simply not
    working. State NIL regulations, I believe, began as a well-
    intentioned attempt to promote fair treatment of student-
    athletes, but unfortunately this turns quickly into a system
    where the States are forced to kind of game their programs'
    recruiting advantages and disadvantages.
        And I think Congress does need to act to promote a fair
    nationwide NIL landscape that is transparent and benefits the
    athletes without favoring one school or State over another.
        I am most concerned with the rise of the collectives that
    may be abused by boosters to work around the rules. This can
    create undesirable incentives, which brings college athletics
    closer to a pay-to-play sort of scheme. I firmly believe we
    should be imposing guardrails to ensure the entities operate in
    full compliance of the NCAA standards and the law.
        Mr. Chun, your testimony mentioned numerous benefits that
    the Washington State athletics department provides for student-
    athletes. Can you speak to some of the effects--positive or
    negative--that your programs may see with boosters donating to
    collectives rather than to the athletic departments?
        Mr. Chun. Can I get the question repeated? It is--so
    positives and negatives of donating to collectives? Did I
    understand that?
        Mr. Dunn. So, yes, what are the effects--positive or
    negative--from the money--the boosters' money going to those
    collectives rather than the AD? And to the athletic department?
        Mr. Chun. Well, the positives, assuming that there is real
    work going on around the country, the--we want to do more for
    our student-athletes. Real NIL work we are 100 percent
    supportive of. It is what is going on with the inducements and
    the tampering that is the challenge, and that is where we need
    the help with Federal legislation, with transparency, with
    something that proves that there is real work, something that
    provides clarity for Title IX.
        Across many campuses, you can read it--you can read it
    almost daily in sports articles of coaches, administrators,
    assistant coaches involved with supporting and advocating for
    collectives. Are they representatives of the institution? Does
    that trigger Title IX? And also, we probably need something
    that takes into consideration international student-athletes.
        Mr. Dunn. I was also concerned about the revenue being
    diverted, and then, therefore, may not be available to
    distribute to the other sports.
        Mr. Chun. Well, yes, the collectives are a little bit
    different because those are going right to the student-
    athletes. It is--as long as there is equity, and as long as
    there is real work, there's no issues. It is with the
    inducements and with the tampering, that is where all the
    challenges are coming and----
        Mr. Dunn. Well, thank you, Mr. Chun.
        I want to turn to Kaley, Kaley Mudge, and say it is great
    to have you here, a softball player at FSU. FSU is in my
    district and of course has received multiple honors over the
    years. They are very proud of you, Kaley.
        I wonder--it is my understanding that you came into FSU
    before the NIL laws took effect, and since then things have
    changed. Can you tell how your--tell us how your college
    experience has changed since NIL laws came out?
        Ms. Mudge. Yes. I--even with NIL coming into play, I was
    never one to play for the money. Being recruited, money wasn't
    an issue for me. I didn't care how much of a scholarship I got.
    I just wanted the opportunity to play college softball. And
    getting to have the experience for the past 4 years has been
    amazing, and it has been the best 4 years of my life for sure.
        But now, specifically with the collectives, I personally
    have had a very good experience with the FSU collective, but I
    do recognize and understand that there are collectives out
    there that are, you know, creating the recruiting inducements.
    And I think as a 15-year-old, 16-year-old, it is really hard to
    turn down that amount of money without the knowledge that they
    are given.
        So I am grateful that I didn't have that decision when I
    was back then, but even now with NIL it has never been about
    the money for me. It has just been about the experience.
        Mr. Dunn. So I think that is true. I have talked to a
    number of student-athletes, and I hear that story again and
    again, they don't want to be employees, and they really do love
    the game, and I thank you very much for that. Now let me just
    say, Go `Noles, you know, so that is--I have got to get my dig
    in at Georgia there, right?
        So, on March 1st, the NCAA named Charlie Baker as its
    president, and that spawned a renewed interest, obviously, in
    effective policymaking for the student-athletes.
        And, Ms. Heppel, I wonder if you find in the Patriot League
    student-athletes graduate with meaningful degrees and are
    expected to engage fully in the academic pursuits, and that
    they are afforded time and opportunity to do that. Do you think
    that happens pretty uniformly?
        Ms. Heppel. I do think it is the majority of the experience
    of student-athletes. I believe that there are student-athletes
    that want to commit 12 months a year to their sport to further
    their professional opportunities, and they should have that
    opportunity as well, but that the majority of student-athletes
    understand that life after college is going to be professional
    and career-oriented.
        Mr. Dunn. Thank you. Thank you very much.
        I yield back, Mr. Chairman.
        Mr. Bilirakis. Thank you. Thank you very much.
        And now I will recognize the gentlelady, Mrs. Trahan.
    Appreciate all the good information you have given us thus far.
    Thank you.
        Mrs. Trahan. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I am not from
    Florida, but I have a world of respect for everything you all
    do.
        Mr. Chun, I am going to start with you, and I am launching
    right into questions because my opening remarks were already
    given. But as athletic director at Washington State University,
    you are responsible for reporting the number of men and women
    athletes for Title IX compliance, correct?
        Mr. Chun. Yes.
        Mrs. Trahan. And the--you must be aware that last year an
    investigative report from USA Today found that your university
    overcounted your women's rowing roster by 21 athletes and
    counted eight male practice players as women's roster spots to
    show compliance with Title IX on paper.
        Mr. Chun. Yes.
        Mrs. Trahan. And it sounds like, just from your direct and
    truthful answers, that you understand that by overcounting or
    misrepresenting the number of women athletes at your
    university, that you are essentially depriving in this case 29
    women of the chance to continue their athletic career.
        Mr. Chun. Yes. Assuming those numbers are correct, yes.
        Mrs. Trahan. So I bring this up because many of my
    colleagues on the committee may not be aware that the
    Department of Education allows colleges to exploit loopholes,
    like overcounting women athletes, double or triple counting
    them, or even counting male athletes as women to comply with
    Title IX on paper.
        Of course, just because the Education Department allows it,
    it doesn't mean it is right to make college athletics less
    available to women athletes. And I bring this up not to put you
    on the spot, Mr. Chun, but we can't talk about NIL rights,
    particularly for women athletes, without talking about how some
    schools exploit loopholes that deprive women of the opportunity
    to play in college in the first place.
        It is for this reason that I introduced the Fair Play for
    Women Act with Congresswoman Adams and Senator Murphy to close
    these loopholes. And I would encourage my colleagues on the
    committee to join me in supporting legislation that not only
    strengthens NIL rights but closes these loopholes as well.
        I will switch gears, because I would like to talk about one
    of the biggest issues facing college athletics in the
    postamateurism landscape, and that is collectives. As some of
    my colleagues have rightly pointed out today, the emergence and
    embrace of NIL collectives has created a number of questions
    over the past year and a half.
        Mr. Chun, are you familiar with the Cougar Collective, the
    NIL collective associated with WASU?
        Mr. Chun. Yes.
        Mrs. Trahan. And do you or athletic department staff,
    including coaches, communicate directly with members of the
    Cougar Collective? And, if so, do they discuss potential
    recruits that a team may be hoping to land a commitment from?
        Mr. Chun. Not with me directly, and not to my knowledge
    with any of our coaches. Our interaction with them has been
    education. They have done compliance education with us. Really,
    we meet--our compliance staff probably meets with them at
    least--I think they have a standing meeting once a month, just
    to ensure compliance with the rules.
        We are fortunate our collective is filled with alums that
    care about the institute that are----
        Mrs. Trahan. Sure.
        Mr. Chun [continuing]. Really focused on following whatever
    rules exist. And we do not have an NIL law in the State of
    Washington.
        Mrs. Trahan. So I have--I think one of the things that we
    need to talk about when we are talking about these collectives
    are whether or not, you know, there are conversations about
    specific athletes in tandem with universities.
        Mr. Chun, is it your understanding or your belief that the
    Cougar Collective prioritizes women athletes at the--as equally
    as they do male athletes?
        Mr. Chun. I know they have had conversations. We do not
    have access to what exact deals are happening, but I know they
    have communicated to us that they are working to try to find
    opportunities for our women. They understand, you know, at our
    institution specifically, I mean, our women sports are
    performing at pretty spectacular levels.
        So they recognize the challenges that our women coaches
    have as well, but we do not--there is no--we don't have any
    clarity exactly on what the deals are.
        Mrs. Trahan. Mr. Stahl--Dr. Stahl, I am sorry--I am curious
    to hear your thoughts on this as well. Are you aware of active
    collusion between athletic departments and collectives? And
    would you say that, generally speaking, collectives tend to
    approach NIL arrangements with the goal of equally supporting
    men and women athletes?
        Dr. Stahl. I mean, it depends on what you mean by
    ``collusion.'' I think one of the reasons I found the
    discussion somewhat odd today about collectives is what I know
    from around the country is athletic department heads, like Mr.
    Chun, are encouraging donors to donate money to collectives. It
    is a huge thing. It happens everywhere.
        And so, you know, to the extent that we would need some
    sort of NIL Federal law, like what exactly would they want said
    about collectives? Just the messaging is very unclear.
        So, in terms of collusion, I mean, that----
        Mrs. Trahan. Coordination.
        Dr. Stahl. Well, athletic director--I will put it very
    simply. Athletic directors around the country are absolutely
    encouraging donors to donate money to collectives. This happens
    everywhere.
        Mrs. Trahan. In addition to that, it would also be helpful
    as we consider where the boundaries of Title IX are if we are
    also having conversations about specific recruits and how those
    collectives are set up to recruits to--to recruit athletes,
    excuse me.
        Thank you. I know I am over my time, Mr. Chair. I yield
    back.
        Mr. Bilirakis. Thank you. Thank you so much.
        Now I will recognize Mrs. Lesko from the great State of
    Arizona. You are recognized for 5 minutes.
        Mrs. Lesko. Thank you all for being here. And I am from
    Arizona, so I am proud that the University of Arizona, Arizona
    State University, and Grand Canyon University all made the NCAA
    men's basketball tournaments this year.
        I have a question for Mr. Chun. Mr. Chun, we have talked
    about this a bit, but over 30 States have passed laws relating
    to name, image, and likeness rights. Some of these laws have
    been in effect for over 2 years. While the need for a uniform
    policy is understood, can you cite specific examples where a
    State was significantly advantaged or disadvantaged as compared
    to another State, and the impacts they have had on a student-
    athlete monetizing their name, image, likeness?
        Mr. Chun. Well, I can--I can just cite our own State.
    Because we don't have a law, initially I thought that would be
    to our advantage and give us flexibility. But in all reality,
    we are governed by State ethics law, so it is really
    restrictive on comparatively what other States are doing.
        So, in the State of Washington, really they are limited to
    education, but we can't steer our student-athletes towards
    specific deals or work with collectives, as it has been
    legalized in some other States.
        Mrs. Lesko. And, Ms. Mudge, speaking--what are some of the
    biggest concerns among student-athletes regarding NIL? And how
    can Federal legislation mitigate them?
        Ms. Mudge. I think for the Federal legislation it would
    just be helpful to be on the same page. I know there is still a
    lot of information that we can learn about. NIL, I would say
    one of the biggest concerns is just education and knowledge of
    what NIL is, how can we use it to our advantage.
        I know for me, going into the NIL space, I was very nervous
    my first couple of deals, because the last thing I want to do
    is put my eligibility in question. And my compliance
    department, my athletic department, has been very helpful in
    teaching me and educating me, but I think across the board it
    would help to have more education federally with all of the
    schools in our Nation, just to teach us what NIL is, how to
    read contracts, how to see a good deal from a bad deal. I feel
    like there's a lot of people that could take advantage of how
    young we, as student-athletes and college student-athletes,
    are.
        So I think just being able to have legislation, so that we
    are on the same page and we do have a level playing field no
    matter what State that you are in, and just having the
    education to learn more.
        Mrs. Lesko. Thank you very much.
        Mr. Chun, it is my understanding that NIL collective can
    offer student NIL deals before they commit or show up on
    campus. First of all, is that correct?
        Mr. Chun. Not based on NCAA rules, but probably different
    by the--part of the issue with the patchwork of State laws.
        Mrs. Lesko. And so my question is, how do we ensure that
    NIL deals aren't being used to persuade students to pick
    certain schools?
        Mr. Chun. That is why we need a Federal standard.
        Mrs. Lesko. Some people have proposed ideas like making
    student-athletes employees of the university. How could this
    hurt smaller sports in smaller universities? And will some
    universities choose to get rid of intercollegiate sports
    programs altogether?
        Mr. Chun. I don't know how you differentiate one sport from
    the other relative to the employment. So if we are--I don't--
    like I stated earlier, the inputs are the same. The commitment,
    the sacrifice, all the things that go into being a student-
    athlete are no different for a softball player or volleyball
    player, football player, basketball player. No difference
    between our men's and women's basketball programs.
        I don't know how you cite one as employees and the other
    one not. So it is just fundamentally flawed there, and I also
    don't--the notion of underperformance leads to firing just is
    counter to college athletics. It is about academics. It is
    about earning that degree. It is the immeasurable impact
    college athletics has.
        Mrs. Lesko. Mr. Stahl, you had mentioned along the way in
    some of your testimony about health coverage for student-
    athletes. And I just was wondering if you would expand upon
    what you are looking for. Is it lifetime health coverage? What
    are you asking the universities to pay for?
        Dr. Stahl. I am asking them primarily to negotiate about
    what is appropriate, right? So we don't--we are not coming into
    this and saying it has got to be X, Y, and Z. I certainly have
    ideas. Our members have ideas. I think, you know, back to the
    main point of my testimony, I think that the problems of the
    industry are enormously solvable by those within the industry,
    including the players through our independent players
    associations.
        And so this is one of the things we would like to sit down
    and talk with Mr. Chun about or, you know, we could have it at
    an institutional level, a conference level, what have you. I
    think this is how you get to actual workable solutions. It is
    not through Federal legislation written by people who are not
    involved in the industry.
        Mrs. Lesko. Thank you, and I yield back.
        Mr. Bilirakis. Thank you. I now will recognize the
    gentleman from Georgia, Mr. Allen, please, for 5 minutes.
        Mr. Allen. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I want to thank all of
    our witnesses for being here today. This is a very complex
    issue, and it--you know, college sports is a very special and
    particularly American tradition.
        And, as an alumni, I know I enjoy college sports, and I
    enjoyed playing in high school. Played football and basketball
    and baseball, and--but when I got to college, my abilities were
    better served to get in the workforce. And so I was able to get
    a job and put my way through college.
        However, my roommate was a walk-on, and he didn't enjoy the
    same opportunity. He was--I mean, even back then, it was full-
    time. I mean, he couldn't get--he couldn't get a job. So,
    obviously, his situation was compromised. I mean, you know,
    because, I mean, where are you going to get the--you know, you
    want to enjoy the college experience, but then again, you know,
    and you don't want to be sitting there with a family worried
    about how you are going to feed them.
        So I agree something has to be done here, because, you
    know, college football, you play it because you love it, or
    basketball or baseball or women's softball. I mean, you have
    said, ``The reason that I am doing this is because this is what
    I want to do.''
        But, at the same time, you know, it is--even in high school
    today--I mean, I have got 14 grandchildren, and I go to their
    sporting events, and they are full-time. I mean, it is
    incredible what sports--it has just taken over. And you get on
    a travel team, and you are all over the place. It is amazing. I
    don't know how these parents do it today.
        But so, you know, you have asked Congress to solve this
    problem, because you are going across State lines. OK. And when
    you are going across State lines, you have got varying laws in
    States. I mean, what is going to keep an athlete who travels
    over to--from Georgia to Alabama to play football, and there is
    a different deal over here? So I agree there has got to be
    some--there have got to be some guardrails here.
        Mr. Chun, how many athletes in your program since NIL was
    originated have entered the transfer portal to improve their
    NIL opportunity?
        Mr. Chun. That is a very good question. That I could not
    give you an exact number because it would just be based on
    rumors.
        Mr. Allen. Right.
        Mr. Chun. But----
        Mr. Allen. But it happens.
        Mr. Chun. It happens. And it is the reality. I mean, we are
    seeing it all across men's basketball right now with entering
    the portal, and you can see the list--go on social media and
    see the listing of schools that are so-and-so contacting X
    person, and--but it is the reality of the world we are in right
    now.
        Mr. Allen. Right. You mentioned that currently there is a
    team in the NCAA basketball that the coach is tampering. What
    do you mean by ``tampering''?
        Mr. Chun. So what I read--and, well, what was--what was
    articulated in the story was during--throughout their
    tournament, the run for Florida Atlantic, the coach articulated
    that third parties----
        Mr. Allen. Right.
        Mr. Chun [continuing]. Were reaching out to his current
    athletes--and they play this Saturday in their pursuit for a
    national championship--about going to their schools. That is
    tampering.
        Mr. Allen. Really. Wow.
        Mr. Chun. We have--and it is probably at its lowest levels
    or worst levels----
        Mr. Allen. Right.
        Mr. Chun [continuing]. But yes.
        Mr. Allen. And, as I understand it, on the NILs and where
    this money is coming from, it is coming from alumni primarily,
    isn't it? Is that where the colleges are getting the----
        Mr. Chun. The collectives.
        Mr. Allen. The collectives----
        Mr. Chun. But----
        Mr. Allen. Yes.
        Mr. Chun [continuing]. There's companies involved. I mean,
    it is a blend of true NIL, and if it is a recruiting----
        Mr. Allen. So, for example, if you had alumni
    participating, their business participating in this, they
    wouldn't be apt to want that money to go to--you know, as far
    as parity is concerned. In other words, if they are doing it
    for college football, that is where they want that money to go.
    Would that--could they--can they decide or direct the money
    that they put in the NIL to go to one specific sport or one
    specific college?
        Mr. Chun. Well, I think if it is true NIL, it is--you know,
    we are not--I would not suggest limiting anything for student-
    athletes. That is true NIL, that is endorsement opportunities,
    that is--that they are paying for actual real work. It is----
        Mr. Allen. Right.
        Mr. Chun. If it is inducement or recruiting tool,
    tampering, that is where the issues come into play.
        Mr. Allen. And that, Dr. Abdullah, is what would be
    affecting you is that, you know, these collectives would then--
    in order for parity to exist, equity to exist, these
    collectives would then have to funnel so much money to athletes
    in our Division I, II, and HBCU schools as well.
        Dr. Abdullah. Yes. It would make it difficult to have
    parity. But I think that 70 percent of my kids are Pell
    eligible, and so for me and for my kids it is about the--it is
    about their ability to get funds so they can go to school and
    maybe have possibly the biggest payday that they can have. And
    so I firmly am behind them trying to do the best that----
        Mr. Allen. Right.
        Dr. Abdullah [continuing]. We can.
        Mr. Allen. And I agree. Thank you.
        I yield back, Mr. Chairman.
        Mr. Bilirakis. Thank you. Excellent questions, by the way.
        All right. Mrs. Harshbarger, you are recognized for 5
    minutes.
        Mrs. Harshbarger. OK. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        Thank you all for being here. I am going to tell you some
    things that I have learned from talking to different schools,
    and you correct me if I am wrong, and then I will give you some
    questions. OK? How about that?
        You know, I want to talk about portals. I want to talk
    about agents. And then I want to hit the collectives. I mean, I
    don't really want to hit them. I just want to see if what I
    have learned is true.
        The portals. There's no contracts. These athletes are free
    agents every year. Am I correct? You can play for a year, then
    go into the portal, see if you can get more money, and then I
    guess stay with the school that you were planning if you don't
    get more money? Is that correct? Yes or no. Or is it true? Ms.
    Heppel, maybe you know.
        Ms. Heppel. I am looking down to the left for--you know,
    the transfer portal is the means by which student-athletes are
    able to let other schools know that they are interested in
    transferring.
        Mrs. Harshbarger. So if a student goes through that
    portal--and this is what I have come to the understanding--if
    they have a scholarship on the table and they go through the
    portal, from what I am understanding, is 35 to 40 percent of
    these student-athletes will lose their scholarship if they are
    not picked up in the portal. Am I correct?
        Ms. Heppel. That is a possible outcome----
        Mrs. Harshbarger. Yes.
        Ms. Heppel [continuing]. When they inform their current
    school----
        Mrs. Harshbarger. Absolutely.
        Ms. Heppel [continuing]. That they are looking elsewhere.
    Yes.
        Mrs. Harshbarger. All right. That is a bad thing. You know,
    and I am all for like a revenue-sharing model, and I think that
    is what it was intended to be.
        Let's go to these agents or so-called agents that are
    recruiting young women like you, and some of these young men.
    You know, I don't even know what the criteria is for these
    agents, and, you know, you get a 3 to 4 to 5 percent recruiting
    fee, but then I have heard that some of these agents will
    garner up to 80 percent of that student's income, which is
    pathetic. There is no regulation there.
        And I will put it to you this way. Based on what I have
    seen over the last couple of years, it is clear that the
    courts, nor the States, can establish uniform rules. Therefore,
    you are sitting in front of Congress, probably not where you
    want to be.
        But something has to be done. What do you think about the
    revenue-sharing model for these schools per sport? And I
    understand on a first-sports basis football, you wouldn't be
    able to do that. Am I correct?
        Ms. Heppel. Not within the Patriot League.
        Mrs. Harshbarger. Yes.
        Ms. Heppel. There is not revenue generated from any of the
    individual sport programs within the league.
        Mrs. Harshbarger. And I have heard that these agents should
    be maybe in a marketing capacity where a certain percentage is
    what they get. But correct me if I am wrong, this, too, I
    understand that you have got these collectives that are--you
    know, 60 percent of their NIL payments come from wealthy
    donors, and that is not sustainable. If you have one donor that
    gives 8 to 10 million, they are not going to do that every
    year.
        But now I understand that schools are allowed to help them
    fund raise. Is that correct? And that happened in October of
    last year? Do you all know about that?
        Ms. Heppel. As of this moment in time, I am not aware of
    any collectives within the Patriot League. So I would----
        Mrs. Harshbarger. OK.
        Ms. Heppel [continuing]. Be hard-pressed to speak to----
        Mrs. Harshbarger. OK. Because--I won't blame the schools,
    but I was told that now they are using athletic associate
    foundations to recruit, because sometimes these donors go out
    and recruit athletes that the school really didn't want to
    recruit, and they are stuck with them.
        So now, through these foundations, the schools can have
    some input on who they want them to go after. So that is
    something to be looking for.
        You know, there are just a lot of unknowns here. I know
    there's something else on here that I--I just needed
    clarification about this, because if we need a standardized--if
    we need to do standardized legislation, that is what we are
    here to do. But I have to have all of the facts, and I have to
    have correct facts and not hearsay in order to do that.
        What do you think Congress should do? What about the
    revenue-sharing models with some of these companies and
    corporations? What is your opinion? We can just go down the
    line.
        Ms. Heppel. You know, I think as I have read that revenue
    sharing, to me anything that opens the door toward an employee
    status we need to be cautious, very cautious about.
        Dr. Abdullah. I think we need to make sure that the
    athletes that are involved in these revenue-generating sports
    and generating a lot of revenue, that they have the opportunity
    to find out what their value is and to get funds for that
    value.
        Mrs. Harshbarger. Absolutely.
        Mr. Burton. I am against revenue sharing from like--in the
    sense of employee or employment, because that is where, in my
    opinion, amateurism becomes professionalism.
        Mrs. Harshbarger. Yes.
        Ms. Mudge. As an Olympic sport athlete, I am also against
    revenue sharing. Just I want future softball players, future
    college athletes, to have the same experience that I did, and
    it is scary to think that the funds that are used to fund
    softball could be taken away and that Olympic sports wouldn't
    be a thing anymore. So, yes.
        Mr. Chun. I would agree. I don't--I don't see if--how
    this--how an employment model works across all the sports that
    are sponsored across the NCAA.
        Dr. Stahl. We take the position in our platform: Percentage
    of the big money and media rights revenue contracts for the
    players whose name, image, and likeness is used in that media,
    there is going to be billions of new dollars in the coming 2
    years, and the players whose--who generate that wealth should
    be able to share in it.
        Mr. Bilirakis. OK. Thank you. Thank you very much.
        The gentlelady yields back.
        Mrs. Harshbarger. I yield back.
        Mr. Bilirakis. Now I will recognize the gentleman from
    California, Mr. Cardenas, for 5 minutes.
        Mr. Cardenas. Thank you very much. Appreciate Chairman
    Bilirakis, and also Ranking Member Schakowsky, for holding this
    hearing. And thank you for allowing me to waive on to the
    committee so that I can get involved in this discussion before
    the American people, who hopefully are watching.
        And this topic is very important, and I am glad that we are
    having this discussion, though my colleagues have pointed out
    the range of issues confronting student-athletes today goes
    well beyond NIL concerns. In 2021, the NCAA brought in $1.15
    billion in revenue--that is with a B. The product that they
    garnered this money from comes from young adults who put their
    bodies on the line to bring to viewers across the country and
    across the world what generates all of this money.
        And, therefore, it goes--should it go anywhere else?
    Absolutely, I think that the people who are actually putting
    their bodies on the line, putting their--in some cases putting
    their life on the line, should be able to benefit from all of
    this revenue and what actually creates the revenue.
        Mr. Chun, could--would collegiate athletes be better
    protected if they were part of a union?
        Mr. Chun. I know the student-athletes at Washington State,
    the benefits and services that they are provided, along with
    being a part of the Pac-12, provide a litany of academic
    support, strength and conditioning support, and----
        Mr. Cardenas. So are they better off now that they have
    that opportunity?
        Mr. Chun. You would--I would need a point of reference on
    what----
        Mr. Cardenas. OK.
        Mr. Chun [continuing]. ``Better off'' means.
        Mr. Cardenas. Thank you.
        Mr. Chun. Yes.
        Mr. Cardenas. Mr. Stahl, do you agree that they are better
    off today than they were before they had that opportunity?
        Dr. Stahl. Before they had what opportunity, sir?
        Mr. Cardenas. The opportunity to have representation.
        Dr. Stahl. Well, we are still in that middle space where
    that is what we are trying to provide. We are trying to provide
    representation. And for college athletes who do want to attempt
    to unionize, we want to be there to help facilitate that.
        And to answer your first basic question: Yes, absolutely.
    Anyone who is, you know, going to be a member of a union is
    going to have far more workplace protections than someone who
    isn't.
        Mr. Cardenas. So are there people on the campus who are
    actually members of unions who actually go to work there every
    day?
        Dr. Stahl. Oh, absolutely. Yes. I mean, the universities
    bargain with unions across--every university in this country
    bargains with unions, yes.
        Mr. Cardenas. And those employees who are on that
    university who go to work, whether they teach or whether they
    are janitors or what have you, who are members of unions, are
    they better off now that they have representation than before
    they had representation?
        Dr. Stahl. A hundred percent.
        Mr. Cardenas. Well, I would venture to believe that
    students would benefit as well if they had representation in
    any environment on any campus, especially when they are the
    ones at the core of generating the revenue, not just the
    revenue that I just spoke of--that was just the NCAA's revenue
    in 1 year--much less the revenue that is actually generated in
    other aspects as well.
        One of the things that I would like to point out is that
    the stated mission of these unions is to empower individuals to
    create a strong collective voice and to achieve and maintain
    excellent wages and benefits and working conditions.
        So, Mr. Stahl, would collegiate athletes be able to have
    better representation, be in better situations? And what is the
    biggest obstacle to collegiate athletes organizing today?
        Dr. Stahl. Fear of retaliation. I mean, we saw this at Penn
    State this past summer. I think there is----
        Mr. Cardenas. What did that retaliation look like?
        Dr. Stahl. Well, I think there is just an issue of there
    is--within college football--again, I am only going to speak to
    our members. I am only going to speak for----
        Mr. Cardenas. Sure.
        Mr. Stahl [continuing]. College football.
        Mr. Cardenas. Sure. Please.
        Dr. Stahl. Yes. I think within college football you have
    ample opportunities for retaliation against players who would
    want to engage in organizing efforts, either towards the union
    or towards something else, right? Some sort of voluntary
    chapter within a players association.
        There are so many men who are on these teams, right? If you
    engage in this type of organizing effort, retaliation can take
    the form of something you are just not even going to notice,
    right? Loss of playing time, right?
        And so, yes, I do think that is my biggest fear for sure.
        Mr. Cardenas. Thank you. I have an article here written by
    Notre Dame University President John Jenkins who discusses some
    of the support that Notre Dame gives voluntarily on their own,
    their internal policy towards student-athletes. Notre Dame
    provides 10 years of coverage for its athletes after an injury
    occurs and guarantees that student-athletes will keep their
    scholarship regardless of performance on the field or injury.
        I would like to submit this for the record, Mr. Chairman,
    if----
        Mr. Bilirakis. Without objection, so ordered.
        [The information appears at the conclusion of the hearing.]
        Mr. Cardenas. OK. Thank you so much.
        Obviously, Notre Dame is a large and well-funded
    institution. Dr. Abdullah, what sort of support would you need
    from the NCAA in order to provide similar protections for your
    athletes at your school or at a school the size of Virginia
    State?
        Dr. Abdullah. The easy answer is we would need additional
    revenue to be able to provide all of those.
        Mr. Cardenas. OK. Does it sound like an organization that
    pulls in over $1 billion a year might, if they choose to, be
    able to provide that kind of support, so you could meet them
    halfway maybe and make it happen?
        Dr. Abdullah. I imagine that they would, sir.
        Mr. Cardenas. OK. Thank you so much.
        I yield back the balance of my time.
        Mr. Bilirakis. Thank you. I thank the gentleman.
        I now recognize the lady that represents Gainesville,
    Florida, home of the University of Florida Fighting Gators. You
    are recognized for 5 minutes, ma'am.
        Mrs. Cammack. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And, as always, it
    is great to be a Florida Gator. Trey knows what we are talking
    about. Sorry, FSU, I know you hate that. But this is a great
    day. Regardless, I think we are going to see some great
    bipartisan work done in the way of addressing this issue that I
    think should have been addressed a while ago. I think the cat
    is a little bit out of the bag.
        Back in 2021 when States started putting the patchwork
    framework together, it kind of made a bit of a mess for us on
    this side of it, but we are here now.
        So I am going to start with you, Ms. Mudge. Should NIL
    contracts be permitted when a student-athlete sport is in
    season? Or should there be a balanced approach in how NIL rules
    are applied when a student-athlete is in or out of season?
        Ms. Mudge. Yes. That is a great question.
        Mrs. Cammack. Thank you. It is a Gator question.
        Ms. Mudge. I would say that NIL contracts should be
    permitted in season. I think it is a very individualistic
    approach, as I have teammates that don't want to benefit from
    NIL and don't want to pursue certain opportunities, and I have
    teammates that do. And I think that is the freedom of NIL, is
    that we can choose.
        I personally don't feel too stressed during season to go
    forward with NIL contracts. And if I do, the companies that I
    have been able to talk with have been very, very lenient and
    very helpful in understanding my schedule. So I personally
    don't think that there should be certain times when NIL can and
    can't happen for athletes, just because of the freedom that we
    have the control to choose if we want to do a deal or not.
        Mrs. Cammack. Thank you.
        Mr. Burton, same question to you.
        Mr. Burton. No, not at all. I mean, what happens if I
    score, you know, five or six touchdowns in the game, you know,
    and the next day someone wants to give me an NIL deal. So I
    don't think--by no means do I think there should be a limit on
    when or how or anything like that on NIL. Make as much--the
    players should be able to make as much money as they possibly
    can from that standpoint.
        Mrs. Cammack. OK. Thank you.
        Mr. Abdullah, same question to you from the university
    perspective.
        Dr. Abdullah. Excuse me, ma'am. Would you mind repeating
    the question?
        Mrs. Cammack. Should student-athletes be able to engage in
    NIL deals during their season or not?
        Dr. Abdullah. I believe so. I believe that student-athletes
    shouldn't have any restrictions on their ability to generate
    NIL dollars.
        Mrs. Cammack. OK. Excellent.
        Mr. Chun, you described your extensive work with several of
    the NCAA committees, including the Transformation Committee.
    You briefly touch on the issues with a potential employer-
    employee situation regarding the student-athletes. And I wanted
    to know, did you guys touch on any of the revenue-sharing
    models, the impact that that would have, if it were applied to
    all sports? If so, did you simulate what specific actions, if
    any, athletic departments would take in order to comply with
    the type of model?
        Mr. Chun. We did not.
        Mrs. Cammack. Wow, that was the shortest answer ever. All
    right. Thanks.
        This one is for you, Ms. Heppel, and also to you, Mr. Chun.
    Should there be an office or a clearinghouse specifically
    within either schools, conferences, or the NCAA to review and
    validate companies or individuals, not necessarily contract
    details, but those that seek to partner with student-athletes
    for an NIL deal?
        We will start with you, Ms. Heppel.
        Ms. Heppel. I think that is a great question, and I think
    it is something I have thought a lot about. I think the
    importance of ensuring student-athletes understand what their
    fair market value is and ensuring that they are entering into
    legitimate deals are the two paramount issues.
        Mrs. Cammack. Absolutely. Mr. Chun?
        Mr. Chun. Nothing to add. I agree with that. The clarity
    that student-athletes would get from understanding the market--
    and I think someone mentioned earlier just seeing what also is
    appropriate to have with your attorneys or agents that are
    representing you from a commission standpoint, those are
    critical factors for our student-athletes.
        Mrs. Cammack. Excellent. Going back to you, Ms. Heppel,
    according to the NCAA, over 20,000 international students
    compete in collegiate athletics. These athletes are precluded
    from engaging in NIL activities because of what that would mean
    for their visa status and employment status.
        What steps can Congress take to allow for these athletes to
    take advantage of the same types of opportunities that are
    available to their peers? And what would we expect the impact
    to be on the athletic programs within the universities?
        Ms. Heppel. I--you know, I am not an immigration lawyer,
    and I think that is where some of this has been hung up, from a
    pure--as a commissioner of an athletics conference, with
    schools that recruit nationally and internationally, I don't
    differentiate, and we don't differentiate on our campuses. All
    student-athletes should ideally have access to NIL
    opportunities.
        Mrs. Cammack. From the nodding of everyone's heads, I feel
    like everyone is in agreement on that. All right. Excellent.
        And since I have got--well, I am 7 seconds over. With that,
    I guess I--Mr. Chairman, I yield back, and of course, go
    Gators.
        Mr. Bilirakis. Go Gators.
        All right. Next we have Mr. Fulcher from the great State of
    Idaho. Thank you. I recognize you for 5 minutes.
        Mr. Fulcher. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Just a little bit ago
    I told my good friend from Georgia I wish I knew a good
    congressman that would fix a lot of this stuff. But maybe we
    are short on those too.
        I wanted to start with Ms. Mudge, and you said you are
    about to graduate, as I recall. So look back at the day you
    enrolled, just in your mind, and tell me if there is anything
    that you wish you would have known then that you know now about
    NIL.
        Ms. Mudge. That is a great question. I would say I wish I
    knew more back then. I wish that there would have been more
    Federal legislation, just because I feel like the past 2 years,
    even though I have been able to capitalize on my NIL, it has
    been very confusing and very just hard to distinguish what
    deals I can do, what I can't do.
        I am very grateful for my athletic department and
    compliance department for seeing me through those tough times,
    but I wish that back then I would have been able to have more
    clear-cut rules of what I could and couldn't do. And I remember
    when NIL came into play, like I had questions as to why someone
    in Oklahoma or North Carolina could do things that I couldn't
    as an NIL athlete. And just the confusion of having different
    State laws for NIL was really hard for me as a student-athlete,
    as I am sure I can speak for most student-athletes as well.
        So I do wish that even though that--I can't turn back time
    that we could pass Federal legislation and Federal guidelines
    soon, just to create just a level playing field and no more
    sense of confusion.
        Mr. Fulcher. Thank you for that.
        Mr. Burton, you are in a different place in your life. You
    have gone through a professional career as well now. But same
    question. Reflect back before you enrolled in college, and can
    you address that as well, please, what you wish you would have
    known then that you do now?
        Mr. Burton. Well, I would say 100 percent finances. My
    mom--single mom, didn't have much money, grew up with, you
    know, not much, was really thankful for support from family all
    across the country, and they provided, you know, a lot for us.
        So finances--like, for example, I remember when I got to
    Philadelphia I was an undrafted free agent. I signed a $10,000
    signing bonus, and they gave me 7,500 bucks. And I said, ``You
    said 10,000, not 7,500. Where did the rest of the money go?''
    And then they explained taxes to me.
        So just, you know, financial literacy. I think now--now
    having money, it is way more important, and I pay way more
    attention than I did before when I didn't have money.
        Mr. Fulcher. Thank you for that. And we know taxes here.
        Shifting gears a little bit, Mr. Abdullah, you referenced
    something, but not very deep. I would like to go just a little
    bit deeper. It has to do with agents. How do you protect your
    student-athletes from perhaps agents or agent access that may
    not have their best interests in mind? What are some of the
    things you do?
        Dr. Abdullah. You know, what we do at Virginia State is
    provide critical education, have them actually meet with agents
    on campus and talk about what it means to have a positive
    relationship.
        But I think the real key to making sure across the board
    that student-athletes are protected is to provide a level of
    transparency and interactions--and I think it is a question
    that Ms. Heppel answered just a minute ago--that the more
    transparency that we have across the board where people
    understand the deals that are happening, I think the student-
    athletes and the young people can successfully negotiate and
    use the right representation to get that done.
        I think the more that we keep things in the dark and keep
    them opaque, I think, is ripe for exploitation of athletes.
        Mr. Fulcher. Thank you for that.
        Mr. Chun, can you address that question? Agents, how do you
    deal with that? Maybe the ones who are not so interested in the
    well-being of your student-athletes.
        Mr. Chun. I agree wholeheartedly with what was said. We
    need transparency in the marketplace. We ultimately--and we
    need to allow our student-athletes all the information
    necessary as they make decisions. We can educate as much as we
    want, and we are no different than probably all the schools
    represented here where we go to great lengths to make sure our
    student-athletes understand all of the points that go into
    being in this NIL marketplace.
        But at the end of the day, they do need some transparency
    to understand what is--what is out there in the marketplace.
        Mr. Fulcher. Ms. Heppel, comment? Quickly.
        Ms. Heppel. I completely agree with the prior comments.
        Mr. Fulcher. All right. Mr. Chairman, I yield back. Thank
    you.
        Mr. Bilirakis. Thank you very much. Appreciate it, and the
    gentleman yields back.
        I now recognize the gentleman from Georgia, probably the
    number one Georgia----
        Mr. Carter. How did you know I was from Georgia?
        Mr. Bilirakis [continuing]. Bulldog----
        [Laughter.]
        Mr. Bilirakis. Yes. How did I know? OK. Well, I have got to
    be fair. I have got to be fair.
        Mr. Carter. Sorry.
        Mr. Bilirakis. Anyway, national champion--two-time national
    championships, back to back, from the University of Georgia----
        Mr. Carter. Take as much time as you want.
        Mr. Bilirakis [continuing]. Mr. Carter.
        Mr. Carter. Mr. Chairman, take as much----
        Mr. Bilirakis. All right.
        Mr. Carter [continuing]. Time as you want.
        Mr. Bilirakis. Thank you. That hurt, but I--it pained me to
    say it, but----
        Mr. Carter. Well----
        Mr. Bilirakis [continuing]. I had to say it.
        Mrs. Cammack. I am going to sit here the whole time.
        [Laughter.]
        Mr. Carter. Thank you all for being here. We are obviously
    very concerned. And thank you, Mr. Chairman, for this hearing
    and for your interest in what I consider to be very, very
    important--look, obviously, I love the University of Georgia. I
    graduated from there in 1980. We won the national championship
    that year. We have won back to back. It--you know, I am one of
    those, just like you, we all love college athletics.
        That is why we are so concerned about this, because we
    don't want to see it ruined. We get it. We understand that--it
    was even discussed back when I was in school way back then
    about athletes being compensated. And I get it, and I
    understand that, but we want it to be done in the right way.
        And certainly I know during this hearing we have had some
    great questions, and they brought up the California's College
    Athlete Protection Act, and I know that that potentially--and,
    full disclosure, I have had the opportunity to discuss, you
    know, the situation with some of the--some of my friends at the
    University of Georgia in administration.
        And that is one thing that they are really concerned about,
    is if something like this were to go to into--into effect, the
    impact that it would have on some of the other sports. They
    offer--we offer 21 sports at the University of Georgia, and
    we--and they are all very important to our school, and we want
    to make sure that they continue on.
        Dr. Abdullah, can you tell me if your State--if Virginia,
    where I have grandbabies, by the way, if Virginia followed the
    California bill, what do you think the impact would be on those
    other athletic programs? And, listen, they live in
    Charlottesville, and they go to UVA athletics all the time and
    enjoy it.
        Dr. Abdullah. If I am being honest, sir, I don't--I don't
    entirely know, because those--the impact of that level of
    revenue sharing is predominantly known by the Power Five
    schools, the larger schools. At Virginia State University, we
    are--we are all student-fee driven, and athletics is an
    extracurricular activity.
        And if your grandbabies would love to come to Virginia
    State, we would gladly recruit them to VSU
        Mr. Carter. Thank you.
        Ms. Mudge, what about you? Do you have any comment on that?
        Ms. Mudge. Yes. I think I am just very grateful for the
    experience that I have had the past 4 years. And I am not an
    expert on everything that is happening outside of, you know, my
    little square of Tallahassee, but hearing about possible
    revenue-sharing models that could take funds and divert funds
    away from Olympic sports over to football, men's basketball, to
    male sports, would be severely detrimental to Olympic sports.
        And I just couldn't imagine what my life would be without
    Florida State softball the past 4 years and the relationships I
    have made, and the access to education that I have been able to
    build, and just everything that I have been able to do the past
    4 years. So----
        Mr. Carter. That is why this is so very important to us.
    Thank you for that testimony. That is spot on. I mean, it----
        Ms. Mudge. Thank you.
        Mr. Carter [continuing]. Changed your life, right?
        Ms. Mudge. Yes. It changed my life. I wouldn't be who I am
    today without Florida State.
        Mr. Carter. Absolutely. Thank you for that.
        Mr. Burton, I am sorry you had to play at the University of
    Florida, but--and----
        Mr. Bilirakis. I object to that.
        [Laughter.]
        Mr. Carter. Seriously, I want to follow up on what my good
    friend from North Dakota discussed about the transfer portal
    and--because that is, you know, that is a concern, too. I mean,
    wow. It is--so much has changed, and, you know, change is OK,
    but we have just got to make sure we are not--we are not
    hurting it.
        And that is one thing--I am very concerned about reports,
    about the way the transfer rule changes coincided with the
    release of the NCAA NIL policy. I mean, what--how do you feel
    about that?
        Mr. Burton. Oh, I am not familiar with the policy. What is
    the policy? Like what----
        Mr. Carter. Well, it led to an environment where, you know,
    I mean, are they--are they trying--is it pay-for-play? I mean,
    that is what I keep hearing.
        Mr. Burton. Yes.
        Mr. Carter. I don't know. I am just asking.
        Mr. Burton. Well, I mean, I think the transfer portal and
    NIL are completely separate conversations. But somehow they are
    getting blended now, just because there is--they are both
    possible. Back then, obviously they weren't possible.
        You know, I am--I am of the understanding that money is
    being thrown at recruits, high school and transfer portal in a
    way, and that is why I think we need to have legislation and
    laws on what is available to be used for transfer portal and
    what is not, and just clear boundaries I think is kind of what
    everybody is asking for right now.
        Mr. Carter. Good. Good. Well, again, obviously, I love a
    lot--I love college athletics. Let me tell you, I was at the
    University of Georgia. I got to see John McEnroe play John
    Sadri in tennis. What a--I still remember it. Sadri had 13
    aces, and McEnroe still beat him two and two, beat him like a
    drum.
        And I don't want to see that ruined. I don't want to see it
    go away. It means so much to so many of us. Thank you all, and
    thank you again for----
        Mr. Bilirakis. Buddy, I will give you some more time if you
    want it. We are waiting for Pfluger.
        Mr. Carter. Yes. I will take more time----
        Mr. Bilirakis. All right. Go ahead.
        Mr. Carter [continuing]. What else----
        Mr. Bilirakis. Go ahead.
        Mr. Carter [continuing]. I witnessed in college.
        Mr. Bilirakis. Don't say anything against the Gators
    anymore.
        Mr. Carter. No, I am not. I am not.
        Let me see what I have got. He is here now, so I will--I
    will yield back.
        Mr. Bilirakis. The gentleman yields back.
        Mr. Carter. But one--one last thing.
        Mr. Bilirakis. OK. Go ahead.
        Mr. Carter. One last thing: Go Dawgs.
        Mr. Bilirakis. All right. Very good.
        All right. Now I will recognize the gentleman from Texas,
    Mr. Pfluger, for 5 minutes.
        Mr. Pfluger. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I appreciate it. I
    know some of us have popped in and out a little bit, but we
    appreciate all of you being here.
        And I think talking about some of these important issues, I
    was a student-athlete at the Air Force Academy, and obviously
    it brings a little bit different, you know, considerations to
    it.
        But I will start with Ms. Heppel. As commissioner of the
    Patriot League, you know, talk to me about what the service
    academy community is looking at when it comes to the guardrails
    that may be in place, and how it differs from maybe other
    institutions.
        Ms. Heppel. Thank you. You know, in the conversations with
    the folks at Army and Navy, I think, you know, there is an
    understanding as--that the Federal employee regulations are
    very different. I think they would appreciate the opportunities
    for their student-athletes that are similar to the
    opportunities that exist outside the service academies.
        On the other hand, young people that choose to attend one
    of the service academies are looking for a very different type
    of collegiate experience and have different goals, as you know.
    So it is--it is a unique perspective, very appreciative of what
    they bring to the table in the Patriot League and their
    perspective.
        Mr. Pfluger. Well, thank you for that, and I think that is
    right. You know, Mr. Chun, I will go to you. In part of your
    testimony, it was interesting--and I am interested to hear your
    thoughts on the revenue sharing, and, you know, using
    California's model, that would do to Ms. Mudge and what that
    would do to Olympic sports if we had the revenue sharing.
        And I think traditionally--correct me if I am wrong--but
    most of the revenue is going to come from football and men's
    and women's basketball, and that is kind of top three. So what
    does it do to the Olympic sports and women's sports in
    particular?
        Mr. Chun. Well, I will answer that from two different
    angles. One, it would be what I had spoke about before. It is
    the--it is the flaw in our model that two sports do drive on
    most campuses--some one--the revenue to run an athletic
    program, and are also governed by equity in Title IX.
        So it is--so it provides opportunities for broad-based
    programming. Also, as a member of the Pac-12, obviously, we are
    paying attention to what is going on in California, but it is
    another example of another patchwork State law that is going to
    impact how we--how we manage college athletics not only on the
    west coast and our conference, but it will impact other
    institutions in the NCAA.
        Mr. Pfluger. Ms. Mudge, your thoughts on that.
        Ms. Mudge. Yes. Just like I stated earlier, I am grateful.
    Florida State has been the best 4 years of my life. And just
    with the revenue-sharing model in California, it is very scary
    to think that athletes like me, future college athletes like
    me, won't get the experience if that model is--if that model
    comes into play.
        And I know that the funds come mainly from football and
    men's basketball, but I wouldn't trade my experience for
    anything. And I am grateful for the 4 years that I have gotten,
    and just all of the relationships I have made, everything that
    I have learned academically, athletically, as a person,
    everything that I have been able to learn in my 4 years, I
    wouldn't have learned if I didn't come in as a college athlete.
    And so that opportunity has been one of the best opportunities
    of my life.
        Mr. Pfluger. Thank you.
        Mr. Burton?
        Mr. Burton. Yes. I share the same thoughts from the
    employment standpoint, though I do think Dr. Stahl does bring
    up an interesting point in the sense of, you know, college
    basketball, March Madness, players playing, like I think there
    might be a way to make that work from the revenue-sharing
    standpoint, but I don't think it is an employment deal.
        You know, I think it may be like there is some talk--I
    think it was like Division II or Division III tournament where
    they gave money to collectives to pay players for NILs. So, I
    mean, maybe that might work. I don't know the answer to that,
    but I am 100 percent against employment to universities, yes.
        Mr. Pfluger. What--and anybody can answer this. What is the
    most--I use the term closest alligator to the canoe--I mean,
    what is the biggest threat we face right now, if we don't do
    something at the Federal level? And I will kind of look at Mr.
    Chun and Ms. Heppel. I mean, what--if we don't do something
    now, what is the biggest threat and what will happen?
        Mr. Chun. I go to what Mr. Burton said. It is about the
    employment model.
        Mr. Pfluger. OK.
        Mr. Chun. And the impact that will have specifically on
    five leagues or a subset of schools in those five leagues that
    ultimately, if you look at where the revenue is generated from,
    ultimately from the entire enterprise of 500,000 student-
    athletes, 1,200 institutions.
        So what--I guess what alarms me is if that path--if the
    road took us down that path, I don't know how Division II,
    Division III, and most of Division I exists anymore.
        Mr. Pfluger. Yes.
        Ms. Heppel. I echo that. I--you know, overseeing a league
    where athletics does not generate revenue, revenue sharing is
    probably not viable, but it does--the concern is around opening
    the door toward the consideration of student-athletes as
    employees. That would be detrimental.
        Mr. Pfluger. Thank you. I know my time is expiring. Do you
    think NIL is a good thing for the Congressional baseball game?
        [Laughter.]
        Mr. Pfluger. OK. Good. I like that. I am going to have to
    consider that. We do play one game a year.
        Mr. Chairman, I yield back.
        Mr. Bilirakis. All right. On that note, I will tell you
    that this was an excellent hearing. The testimony was
    outstanding, and the questions and the answers, it was so
    productive, and we appreciate all of you. I really appreciate
    it very much.
        Now, I want to give our ranking member an opportunity to
    make a statement or her observations, what have you, with
    regard to the hearing. We would appreciate hearing from you.
        Ms. Schakowsky. Well, once again, I do agree with my
    chairman that this has been a really excellent hearing, and I
    really appreciate all of the witnesses.
        I think a lot of questions still remain on how are we going
    to best serve our student-athletes, and I look forward to this
    being just really the beginning of that conversation that will
    end in some ways that we do better.
        So I yield back. Thank you.
        Mr. Bilirakis. Thank you. And, again, we do have a lot of
    questions, and we will submit them for the record. But I think
    we made a great deal of progress today.
        Thank you very much. I remind Members that they have 10
    business days to submit questions for the record. And I ask the
    witnesses to respond to these questions promptly.
        I ask unanimous consent to insert in the record the
    documents included on the staff hearing documents list.
        So, without objection, this committee--again, without
    objection, that will be the order, and we are adjourned.
        Thank you very much for all you have done, and I thank the
    audience as well.
        [Whereupon, at 1:17 p.m., the subcommittee was adjourned.]
        [Material submitted for inclusion in the record follows:]

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