[House Hearing, 118 Congress]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]



 
2022 MIDTERMS LOOK BACK SERIES: GOVERNMENT VOTER SUPPRESSION IN LUZERNE 
                          COUNTY, PENNSYLVANIA

=======================================================================

                                HEARING

                               before the

                   COMMITTEE ON HOUSE ADMINISTRATION

                        HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

                    ONE HUNDRED EIGHTEENTH CONGRESS

                             FIRST SESSION

                               __________

                             MARCH 28, 2023

                               __________

      Printed for the use of the Committee on House Administration
      
      
      
[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT] 


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                   Committee on House Administration

                    BRYAN STEIL, Wisconsin, Chairman

BARRY LOUDERMILK, Georgia            JOSEPH MORELLE, New York,
H. MORGAN GRIFFITH, Virginia              Ranking Member
GREG MURPHY, North Carolina          TERRI A. SEWELL, Alabama
STEPHANIE BICE, Oklahoma             DEREK KILMER, Washington
MIKE CAREY, Ohio                     NORMA TORRES, California
ANTHONY D'ESPOSITO, New York
LAUREL LEE, Florida
                      Tim Monahan, Staff Director
                  Jamie Fleet, Minority Staff Director
                         C  O  N  T  E  N  T  S

                              ----------                              
                                                                   Page

                           Opening Statements

Chairman Bryan Steil, Representative from the State of Wisconsin.     1
    Prepared statement of Chairman Bryan Steil...................     4
Ranking Member Joseph Morelle, Representative from the State of 
  New York.......................................................     6
    Prepared statement of Ranking Member Joseph Morelle..........     8

                               Witnesses

Jim Bognet, former congressional candidate for PA-08.............    11
    Prepared statement of Jim Bognet.............................    14
Darin Gibbons, counsel, Republican National Committee............    18
    Prepared statement of Darin Gibbons..........................    20
Donald Palmer, commissioner, U.S. Election Assistance Commission.    23
    Prepared statement of Donald Palmer..........................    25
Alisha Hoffman-Mirilovich, executive director, Action Together 
  NEPA...........................................................    28
    Prepared statement of Alisha Hoffman-Mirilovich..............    30
Theodore Fitzgerald, ABC Bail Bonds..............................   162
    Prepared statement of Theodore Fitzgerald....................   165
Ben Herring, vice president of the Citizens Advisory of 
  Pennsylvania...................................................   166
    Prepared statement of Ben Herring............................   168
James Walsh, president of the Citizens Advisory of Pennsylvania 
  and small business owner.......................................   171
    Prepared statement of James Walsh............................   240

                       Submissions for the Record

Chelsea Strub transcript.........................................    36
Spotlight PA article.............................................    43
Deputy Secretary of State Jonathan Marks letter..................    63
Luzerne County home rule charter.................................    64
Screenshot of vacant position of director of the Bureau of 
  Election Security and Technology...............................   135
ACLU statement...................................................   139
Mark Benjes statement............................................   149
25 PA Stat. Sec.  2642...........................................   153
Bernadette Hivish statement......................................   155
Eugene Dougherty transcript......................................   158
Kim Buerger transcript...........................................   159
Brian Dwyer transcript...........................................   160
Alyssa Fusaro transcript.........................................   161
David Stadler transcript.........................................   161
Affidavits.......................................................   173
Confidential report..............................................   245
Michael Fratangelo statement.....................................   269
Tioga Publishing and Times Leader articles.......................   273
25 PA Stat. Sec.  2642...........................................   290

                        Questions for the Record

Donald Palmer answers to submitted questions.....................   293
Darin Gibbons answers to submitted questions.....................   299
Alisha Hoffman-Mirilovich answers to submitted questions.........   302


2022 MIDTERMS LOOK BACK SERIES: GOVERNMENT VOTER SUPPRESSION IN LUZERNE 
                          COUNTY, PENNSYLVANIA

                              ----------                              


                             March 28, 2023

                 Committee on House Administration,
                                  House of Representatives,
                                                    Washington, DC.

    The Committee met, pursuant to notice, at 10:32 a.m., in 
room 1310, Longworth House Office Building, Hon. Bryan Steil 
[Chairman of the Committee] presiding.
    Present: Representatives Steil, Loudermilk, Griffith, 
Murphy, Bice, Carey, D'Esposito, Lee, Morelle, Sewell, and 
Torres.
    Also present: Representative Meuser.
    Staff present: Tim Monahan, Staff Director; Caleb Hays, 
Deputy Staff Director, General Counsel, Acting Parliamentarian; 
Hillary Lassiter, Clerk; Jordan Wilson, Director of Member 
Services; Thomas Lane, Elections Counsel and Director of 
Elections Coalition; Alex Deise, Counsel; Jamie Fleet, Minority 
Staff Director; Khalil Abboud, Minority
    Deputy Staff Director, Chief Counsel; Eddie Flaherty, 
Minority Chief Clerk; Andrew Garcia, Minority Special 
Assistant; Sarah Nasta, Minority Elections Counsel; and Sean 
Wright, Minority Senior Elections Counsel.

    OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. BRYAN STEIL, CHAIRMAN OF THE 
 COMMITTEE ON HOUSE ADMINISTRATION, A U.S. REPRESENTATIVE FROM 
                           WISCONSIN

    Chairman Steil. The Committee on House Administration will 
come to order.
    I note that a quorum is present. Without objection, the 
chair may declare a recess at any time. Without objection, the 
meeting record will remain open for 5 legislative days so 
Members may submit any materials they wish to be included 
therein.
    Thank you, Ranking Member Morelle and Members of the 
Committee, for participating in today's hearing on the 2022 
midterm election in Luzerne County, Pennsylvania.
    What exactly happened? Let us look back.
    In 2022, our Nation faced a major supply chain crisis, 
including the paper needed to make ballots. The Committee on 
House Administration Republicans, the Election Assistance 
Commission, and several media outlets warned a ballot paper 
shortage could disrupt the 2022 election. In fact, Committee 
Republicans held a widely attended and covered roundtable on 
the ballot paper shortage crisis in early 2022.
    The Election Assistance Commission encouraged State and 
local election officials to prepare by ensuring they ordered 
enough ballots well in advance of the November election. I 
warned officials in my home State of Wisconsin about the need 
to prepare.
    In fact, in July 2022, I spoke with CBS 58, a CBS affiliate 
in Milwaukee, Wisconsin, and said, quote, ``One of the things 
is that paper ballots are a pretty unique type of paper. It is 
not just your average, everyday type of paper that you can snag 
off the shelf, which is good because it provides election 
integrity, but it is challenging for suppliers,'' end quote.
    Unfortunately for voters in Luzerne County, their election 
officials seemed to be the only ones who did not listen to the 
warnings. In Luzerne County, on election day 2022, nearly one-
third of precincts ran out of paper. In some cases, there were 
shortages just after the polls opened. This resulted in voters 
being turned away from the polls and denied their right to 
vote.
    When some voters later returned to the polls, they 
discovered there were still no ballots. Effectively, many polls 
in Luzerne County were closed for hours on election day, and 
some did not reopen.
    In response to the ballot shortage, election officials and 
voters rushed to stores such as Staples to buy standard copy 
paper for voters to use for voter-created emergency ballots, 
something that is truly unbelievable in American elections 
today.
    They were then instructed to write out choices on standard 
20-pound paper, vote by photocopies of ballots instead of 
ballot paper, or cast emergency or provisional ballots in place 
of standard ballots. They had no guarantee that the voting 
equipment would be able to process these irregular ballots or 
that their vote would count.
    The Luzerne County Board of Elections has the authority and 
responsibility to investigate this election disaster. Yet 6 
days after the election, on November 14th, the board voted to 
send the investigation to the district attorney, District 
Attorney Sam Sanguedolce.
    Twenty days after the election, on November 28, the board 
met and voted not to certify the election because the problems 
were obvious.
    Then, 2 days later, on November 30, in a partisan vote 
following public pressure, three Democratic commissioners 
reversed course and voted to certify the election in spite of 
the obvious problems.
    To date, no official action has been taken in Luzerne 
County. No report from the district attorney. No report from 
the secretary of state. No report from the Luzerne County Board 
of Elections.
    There must be accountability. Our Committee is focused on 
figuring out how this happened and ensuring it never happens 
again. This is all the more important as Pennsylvania prepares 
for a State election in May and a Presidential election next 
year.
    In America, every interested and eligible citizen who wants 
to cast a ballot has the right to do so, and that vote must 
count in accordance with law.
    We invited several officials from Luzerne County to come 
today and answer some very straightforward questions about how 
this election disaster occurred. They are not here.
    We also need to learn how they intend to prevent this from 
happening in the future. It is disappointing they declined our 
invitation.
    I hope those officials who refused to come and testify 
today are watching to hear from voters in Luzerne County whose 
votes were suppressed due to their negligence.
    For years, several of our colleagues on the other side of 
the aisle have claimed that States like Florida and Georgia 
that have implemented voter integrity laws are suppressing 
voters. In fact, for 2 years, I have sat through dozens of 
hearings on this topic. However, they never produced a single 
voter who wanted to vote and was unable to.
    Contrast that with today, as we hold a hearing with 
evidence that voters who wanted to legally vote were turned 
away from the polls.
    Today we are working to bring transparency and 
accountability to the voters of Luzerne County who were failed 
by their local election officials.
    Citizens of Luzerne County deserve to be heard. They have 
the right to vote. They need answers from those who are elected 
to serve them.
    My goal is to provide transparency, to hold those 
accountable, and to prevent this disaster from ever happening 
again.
    I now recognize the Ranking Member, Mr. Morelle, for 5 
minutes for the purpose of providing an opening statement.
    [The prepared statement of Chairman Steil follows:]

   PREPARED STATEMENT OF CHAIRMAN OF THE COMMITTEE ON HOUSE 
                   ADMINISTRATION BRYAN STEIL
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OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. JOSEPH MORELLE, RANKING MEMBER OF THE 
 COMMITTEE ON HOUSE ADMINISTRATION, A U.S. REPRESENTATIVE FROM 
                            NEW YORK

    Mr. Morelle. Thank you, Chairman Steil, for yielding me 
time.
    Thank you to the witnesses for joining us this morning.
    Today's hearing is more than a bit confusing for those of 
us on the minority side of the aisle. Some facts are very 
clear. There is no doubt there was a paper-related problem or 
shortage at multiple precincts in Luzerne County, Pennsylvania, 
on election day, November 8, 2022. That is, without a question, 
a very, very bad thing.
    I understand the remedy decided upon by local officials was 
to afford voters the opportunity to vote by other means. 
Nonetheless, there should never be a case where election 
officials are caught napping and do not have enough paper. Such 
a situation is completely unacceptable, and we share our 
majority colleagues' alarm.
    This raises serious questions. Did someone forget to buy 
paper? Or did they buy the wrong kind of paper? Who bears the 
responsibility for ordering and purchasing paper? How many 
voters were affected by this? Were voters denied the right to 
vote? Did election workers offer each voter a backup method of 
voting? How many voters took advantage of the opportunity to 
use a backup method of voting?
    Some have suggested laws may have been broken, and to that 
point, the local district attorney, as my colleague, the chair, 
has suggested, the local district attorney has been 
investigating the incident, and according to press reports, 
hopes to be done with that investigation soon. The resulting 
report, we would expect, would answer these sorts of factual 
questions and would make some recommendations on who is to 
blame and whether or not criminal charges would be forthcoming 
as a result of breaking laws with criminal intent.
    Which brings us to the question that is sort of mystifying 
to us on this side of the aisle. What exactly are we trying to 
accomplish in today's hearing? There is no one here from 
Luzerne County government and no one here from the Pennsylvania 
Department of State, individuals who could actually shed some 
light and provide answers to some of these key questions.
    Our colleagues in the majority did invite folks from both 
offices, yet they declined, citing a reluctance to interfere 
with the ongoing district attorney's investigation.
    Their reluctance seems logical, at least from our point of 
view. If you bring witnesses from a DA's investigation into a 
congressional hearing before the investigation is concluded, 
the witnesses might contradict their own testimony to the DA, 
contradict each other, or tank the future testimony of other 
witnesses.
    Not interfering with an ongoing investigation is a familiar 
enough concept, although we are spending a fair amount of time 
here in Washington talking about it lately.
    In any event, that leaves the question I asked earlier: 
What is the purpose of today's hearing? If it is to establish 
that something went wrong last November in Luzerne County, we 
completely agree. This much has already been established.
    Again, the minority has been fighting for the rights of 
every voter as long as I can remember, and this case is no 
different.
    The title of this hearing, ``Government Voter Suppression 
in Luzerne County, Pennsylvania,'' more than implies a 
concerted, intentional effort--a conspiracy, if you will--to 
disenfranchise voters. Is the majority suggesting a conspiracy 
on the part of the Luzerne County Council to suppress voters? 
The county council has 11 members, 10 of whom are Republicans.
    I am also led to understand--and I am no expert on Luzerne 
County politics--but it is not exactly a bastion of progressive 
politics.
    If it is to establish that suppression resulted in the 
outcome of the 2022 elections in Luzerne County being false or 
inaccurate, I would just say that, as it relates to the House 
races, we did not receive any election contests--which is a 
formal complaint filed with the House of Representatives--
touching on Luzerne County this year. In fact, we did not 
receive any contests at all, which as the majority has pointed 
out, highlights the successes of the 2022 midterm elections.
    We have heard a fair amount from our colleagues in the 
majority on the need for decentralized election administration. 
They argue for States' rights and limited Federal intervention. 
I am not sure this is the best example of such a principle.
    In any event, I just wanted to touch on the limited nature 
of the exercise we are engaging in today and to continue to 
raise questions that we have about why we are even here today 
and why we are not waiting for the district attorney's report, 
why we are not waiting to make sure that we have a better 
understanding of the fact pattern from local officials and 
State officials as to what happened, how the paper shortage 
occurred, who is responsible, and who has the liability.
    I also note that the county manager--perhaps not related to 
this at all--resigned from office within days of the election. 
Now, whether or not that had anything to do with the paper 
shortage and who is responsible, I cannot say. I just note that 
that manager was hired again by a county council that has 10 
Republican members out of its 11-member board.
    We want to know what is happening. We certainly do not want 
any voter to be disenfranchised in the United States of 
America. That is a principle on which we have fought for 
decades and we will continue to fight.
    With that, thank you all again for being here.
    Mr. Chairman, I yield back.
    [The prepared statement of Ranking Member Morelle follows:]

PREPARED STATEMENT OF RANKING MEMBER OF THE COMMITTEE ON HOUSE 
                 ADMINISTRATION JOSEPH MORELLE
[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT] 

    Chairman Steil. I thank the Ranking Member.
    Without objection, all Members' opening statements will be 
made part of the record hearing if they are submitted to the 
Committee clerk by 5 p.m. today.
    Pursuant to paragraph (b) of Committee rule 6, the 
witnesses will please stand and raise your right hand.
    [Witnesses sworn.]
    Chairman Steil. Let the record show that the witnesses 
answered in the affirmative and may be seated.
    I will now introduce our first panel of witnesses.
    Our first witness, Mr. Bognet, ran as the Republican 
candidate in Pennsylvania's Eighth Congressional District in 
the 2022 midterm election. Born and raised in Hazleton, 
Pennsylvania, Mr. Bognet previously held a senior appointment 
in the Trump administration where he worked on manufacturing 
and small business issues before resigning this position to run 
for Congress.
    Our next witness, Mr. Darin Gibbons, has been an attorney 
for the Republican National Committee since October 2021. Mr. 
Gibbons worked in Pennsylvania on election day for its 2021 and 
2022 elections and was in Luzerne County throughout the recent 
difficulties in the 2022 election.
    Our next witness, Commissioner Don Palmer, was appointed by 
President Trump and confirmed by the U.S. Senate on January 2, 
2019, to serve as the U.S. Election Assistance Commission 
commissioner.
    During his tenure at the Election Assistance Commission, 
Commissioner Palmer has served as a Designated Federal Officer 
of the EAC's Technical Guidance Development Committee, which is 
charged with developing the Voluntary Voting System Guidelines, 
which sets standards for voting machine testing and 
certification.
    Commissioner Palmer is a former Secretary of the Virginia 
State Board of Elections and served as the Commonwealth's Chief 
Election Official from 2011 to 2014. He also previously served 
as Florida's State Election Director.
    Finally, Alisha Hoffman-Mirilovich is the executive 
director of Action Together NEPA, a grassroots, nonprofit 
advocacy organization that works to build community and 
increase civic engagement. Ms. Hoffman-Mirilovich is in her 
second term as the elected Pennsylvania Democratic State 
committee member for Luzerne County, Pennsylvania.
    We appreciate our witnesses being here with us today, and 
we look forward to your testimony. As a reminder, we have read 
your written statements, and it will appear in full in the 
hearing record. Under Committee rule 9, you are limited to your 
oral presentation to a brief summary of your written statement, 
unless I extend this time in consultation with Ranking Member 
Morelle.
    Please remember to press the button on your microphone in 
front of you so that it is on and all Members can hear you. 
When you begin to speak, the light in front of you will turn 
green. After 4 minutes, the light will turn yellow. When the 
red light comes on, your 5 minutes has expired, and we would 
ask you to please wrap up.
    I will now recognize Mr. Bognet for 5 minutes for the 
purpose of making an opening statement.

 STATEMENTS OF MR. JIM BOGNET, FORMER CONGRESSIONAL CANDIDATE 
  FOR PA-08; MR. DARIN GIBBONS, COUNSEL, REPUBLICAN NATIONAL 
  COMMITTEE; THE HONORABLE DONALD PALMER, COMMISSIONER, U.S. 
    ELECTION ASSISTANCE COMMISSION; AND MS. ALISHA HOFFMAN-
      MIRILOVICH, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, ACTION TOGETHER NEPA

                    STATEMENT OF JIM BOGNET

    Mr. Bognet. Thank you to all Members of the Committee for 
having me today.
    My name is Jim Bognet. I live in Hazle Township, 
Pennsylvania, in Luzerne County. I was the Republican nominee 
for Congress in 2022 in Pennsylvania's Eighth Congressional 
District.
    The general election which took place in Luzerne County on 
November 8, 2022, was a complete disaster. The gross 
incompetence of the Election Bureau brought national shame on 
Luzerne County. The most common statement heard from voters and 
the press was: How do you run out of paper at the polls?
    Most importantly, many Luzerne County voters were 
disenfranchised through no fault of their own, and some voters 
still do not know if their votes were counted.
    The problems began early on election morning as we received 
calls saying that polling places across the county had run out 
of paper on which votes are recorded from the voting machines 
and fed by voters into the tabulators, which completes the 
submission of each vote.
    Voters were turned away from the polls and told to come 
back later or asked to submit provisional or alternative 
ballots, which many voters refused to do.
    Some voters got out of line and left in disgust, and it is 
impossible to calculate how many left the polls. Others were 
asked to leave their phone numbers and told they would be 
called when the county workers provided more paper hours later.
    We heard from at least a dozen polling places that voters 
were being turned away and denied their right to vote.
    The paper shortage was widespread. The County Election 
Bureau had a giant whiteboard filled with the names of many 
precincts which ran out of paper or where other issues 
occurred, and this is that whiteboard. I believe it is been 
entered into evidence.
    By early afternoon, it was clear that in many polling 
places across Luzerne County, the polls were closed on election 
day for hours at a time. Luzerne County took the extraordinary 
step of going to court and asking a judge to order that the 
voting period be extended from 8 p.m. to 10 p.m. across the 
county due to the unprecedented closing of the polls. Our 
campaign agreed to support this because we wanted to make sure 
every lawful voter had a chance to vote.
    Stop for a minute and consider how extraordinary this is. 
On election day, with a Governor, Senate, and two congressional 
races, as well as many local races occurring, Luzerne County 
had to walk into a judge's chamber and admit that polling 
places were effectively closed and had no paper to record votes 
on. In Luzerne County, the polls were closed on election day, 
disenfranchising voters.
    I spoke over the weekend with Eugene Dougherty, an 84-year-
old citizen of Hazleton, Pennsylvania. He went to vote at 8:09 
p.m. He was told that they would be open till 10 p.m. The 
election worker had went home, closed the poll. She did not 
have childcare. Him and his wife did not have a chance to vote.
    In the aftermath of the election day fiasco, Luzerne County 
tried to cover up the incredible mistakes that were made. 
Rather than take responsibility for what had happened, as the 
Ranking Member suggested, County Manager Randy Robertson 
announced that evening that he was resigning for, quote/
unquote, ``personal reasons.'' He has never answered a 
question.
    Denise Williams, the head of the Election Board, allowed 
public comment at hearings, but flatly refused to answer any 
question put to her. In fact, Ms. Williams admonished voters 
for directing questions toward the board and refused to provide 
any information about the paper shortage.
    In an open canvassing hearing the day after the election, 
the acting head of the Luzerne County Bureau of Elections, Beth 
McBride, an elected Democrat city councilwoman in Wilkes-Barre, 
refused to answer any questions from the press or public. No 
explanation was provided for the paper shortage.
    The Luzerne County administration has done everything in 
their power to deny responsibility and evade accountability for 
the disastrous election they administered. Many voters attended 
an Election Board meeting on November 14 to express their 
outrage. Citizens were not provided with any answers as to who 
was responsible for ordering the paper for the polling places.
    Election Bureau head Beth McBride was present and asked 
many times whose responsibility it was to order the ballot 
paper, but she refused to answer questions.
    We are left with one of two inescapable conclusions. Either 
Luzerne County election administrators forgot to order and 
provide paper to all polling locations, or Luzerne County 
election administrators purposely did not provide enough paper 
to over 40 polling locations.
    No one here present today can answer which of those two 
things happened, for only the election administrators, McBride 
and Williams, can provide these answers. Both of these 
officials have refused your Committee's request to testify.
    Voters across Luzerne County have called me and expressed 
their outrage that 4.5 months later election officials still 
will not answer questions.
    My goal in testifying today is to ask that all the facts be 
brought to light and responsible officials be compelled to 
testify in public under oath and we make whatever changes are 
necessary to ensure this never happens again. Sunlight is the 
best disinfectant, and the conduct of elections in Luzerne 
County needs to be cleaned up completely.
    Our right to vote is sacred. My grandparents served in 
World War II to fight for our freedom and right to vote. My 
grandfather was an Italian immigrant, came through Ellis 
Island. He told me he never missed an election in Luzerne 
County.
    We must restore faith in fair elections among voters of all 
parties. I believe this can only be done through your thorough 
congressional investigation.
    Thank you.
    [The prepared statement of Mr. Bognet follows:]

                PREPARED STATEMENT OF JIM BOGNET
[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT] 


    Chairman Steil. Thank you, Mr. Bognet.
    Mr. Darin Gibbons, you are now recognized for 5 minutes.

                   STATEMENT OF DARIN GIBBONS

    Mr. Gibbons. Thank you. Chairman Steil, Ranking Member 
Morelle, and Members of the Committee, thank you for the 
opportunity to testify today.
    My name is Darin Gibbons, and I have been an attorney for 
the Republican National Committee since October 2021. During 
the 2022 midterm elections, I oversaw the RNC's legal election 
integrity efforts in Pennsylvania and other northeastern 
States. My role on election day was to monitor and manage the 
issues reported to our Pennsylvania election day headquarters.
    What happened in Luzerne is a national issue because of the 
impact poor election administration can have on voters' 
confidence. The main objective of the RNC's election integrity 
program is to protect and champion voter rights and build trust 
in the election process.
    Pennsylvania's Luzerne County faced a catastrophic 
breakdown on election day in 2022. County officials supplied 
polling places with an insufficient quantity of ballots to get 
through even the first hours of voting. This led to voters 
checking in and not receiving ballots, voters being turned 
away, and voters casting ballots on incorrect paper not 
recognized by tabulators.
    Poll workers and party observers scrambled to get answers 
from the county and the State to no avail. They simply could 
not and did not take adequate steps to resolve or mitigate 
these problems.
    Failures like those in Luzerne County not only have the 
direct effect of disenfranchising voters through no fault of 
their own, it also severely diminishes voters' confidence in 
our elections.
    I thank the Committee for taking this matter seriously and 
examining how it occurred in order to prevent it from happening 
again, whether in Luzerne or anywhere else in our country.
    In hindsight, there were early warning signs that 
foreshadowed Luzerne was ill-prepared to competently administer 
this election. For example, it was reported that the county 
mailed 937 duplicate mail ballots in the weeks leading up the 
election. The county also had a recent history of senior staff 
turnover.
    Even with these early warning signs, no one could have 
predicted a meltdown on this scale. On election day morning, 
the headquarters received reports of towns that were out of 
ballots. Reports of ballot shortages continued, and we noticed 
the polling locations reporting these issues were all coming 
from Luzerne. It was apparent that this was a county-wide 
issue.
    The RNC's headquarters received reports that a polling 
location turned away 50 voters because of ballot shortages. A 
location sent an individual to go purchase computer paper from 
a store to use for makeshift ballot paper, and locations' 
machines were not properly scanning ballots.
    Around 1 p.m., the solicitor filed an emergency petition to 
the Court of Common Pleas, which subsequently ordered a 2-hour 
poll extension and that voters voting during the extension cast 
provisional ballots as required by Federal law. However, due to 
the ballot shortage, some precincts were already out of 
provisional ballots.
    Getting accurate information from the county throughout the 
day was difficult. On Wednesday morning, we dispatched a 
retained attorney to Luzerne County Board of Elections canvas 
to give public comment on how the party expected the county to 
ensure every legal vote was counted.
    The Luzerne County Board of Elections called a special 
meeting on November 14, almost a week after the election, to 
allow for public comment. Disenfranchised voters and impacted 
poll workers commented that evening, and the board voted to 
refer the matter to the district attorney for investigation.
    A lawsuit by the Bognet for Congress campaign led to a 
court order for the county to produce a poll book 
reconciliation. By our analysis, there may have been more than 
4,400 more votes signed into poll books than there were votes 
on tape. However, some of these sign-ins are accounted for by 
further analyzing the county's notes.
    It remains difficult to tell exactly how many votes may 
have not been counted in Luzerne, but it can be concluded that 
voters were disenfranchised.
    Although there are slightly less than 200,000 registered 
voters in Luzerne County, a systemic failure like this is a 
national issue. It is not just a failure by Luzerne County, but 
it is a failure by the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania and its 
Department of State.
    It is inevitable that things will go wrong on election day, 
but good election administration accounts for problems and 
ensures there are clear procedures for what poll workers are 
supposed to do when things go wrong.
    Pennsylvania has a reputation for inconsistent election 
administration practices throughout its counties, which can 
largely be attributed to a lack of leadership from the 
Pennsylvania Department of State.
    Despite warning signs such as the staff turnover, the 
mailing of duplicate ballots, and early reports of shortages on 
election day, the State left the county to fend for itself 
during the post-election aftermath.
    I thank you for having me here today. The RNC is focused on 
building voters' confidence in elections, and we are optimistic 
that together we can find solutions that prevent this from 
happening again.
    I look forward to answering your questions and continuing 
to engage with the Committee as we work for fair and secure 
elections.
    [The prepared statement of Mr. Gibbons follows:]

              PREPARED STATEMENT OF DARIN GIBBONS
[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT] 

    Chairman Steil. Thank you very much, Mr. Gibbons.
    Mr. Donald Palmer, you are now recognized for 5 minutes.

                   STATEMENT OF DONALD PALMER

    Mr. Palmer. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    Chairman Steil, Ranking Member Morelle, Members of the 
Committee, I appreciate the opportunity to appear today to 
address the ongoing work of the U.S. Election Assistance 
Commission, or EAC, as part of your series on the 2022 
midterms.
    Today, I would like to discuss the role of the EAC's 
testing and certification program in protecting the integrity 
of voting equipment and materials recently used during the 
general election in Luzerne County, Pennsylvania.
    Our testing and certification program was successfully 
administered in the 2022 midterms and will continue to be 
instrumental as we help election officials prepare for the 2024 
elections.
    Election integrity and cybersecurity of our election 
assistance play a vital role in our national security. Every 
lawfully cast vote counts, and I share your concern for these 
issues.
    To provide background into the issues faced by Luzerne 
County, I would like to briefly describe the role of the 
Certification Division.
    Guided by the Help America Vote Act of 2002, or HAVA, this 
program continues to ensure the accessibility, security, and 
accuracy of voting equipment, strengthening the confidence of 
elections.
    Toward this goal, the commission recently implemented the 
Voluntary Voting System Guidelines 2.0. This was achieved 
through the ongoing support of the Congress, the dedication of 
experts, election officials, and EAC staff.
    In 2023, the EAC is advancing our testing and certification 
efforts in several areas. More recently, the agency is working 
to launch an innovative Field Services Program to help election 
officials strengthen the overall posture and preparedness. This 
endeavor will bring EAC staff onsite to work with local 
officials on systems monitoring.
    Regarding the issues that occurred in Luzerne County, 
Pennsylvania, the EAC-certified configuration utilized by the 
county requires the use of ballot paper that is specified by 
the manufacturer and tested within the EAC's program. The 
technical data package for this system, Dominion Democracy 
Suite 5.5-Alpha, details the paper manufacturer, type, weight, 
and color finish of that product.
    Although election officials must occasionally make 
difficult supply decisions, we encourage contingency planning 
to the maximum extent possible. This includes procurement of a 
sufficient supply of machine-appropriate paper and using 
provisional ballots when necessary.
    The apparent decision to use an alternative to the 
specified paper stock was necessitated by an unacceptable 
situation on the ground. While guidelines and election law 
pertaining to paper ballot ordering are determined at the State 
level, there are areas where we can provide guidance, 
particularly in the event of an emergency.
    In addition, States may use HAVA election security grant 
funding for procuring ballot stock and ballot stock with 
security features such as watermarks or unique ballot 
identifiers.
    It should also be noted that the EAC has closely monitored 
the paper stock issue and issued an alert in the summer of 2022 
warning about the nationwide paper shortage. The EAC organized 
roundtable discussions on risks associated with the shortage 
and worked with the Election Infrastructure Subsector 
Coordinating Council to create additional guidance.
    EAC is also launching a portal to connect election 
officials with nearby jurisdictions that use similar voting 
systems and may be able to share excess ballot stock in the 
event of a deficiency.
    To specifically address the VVSG 2.0 guidelines regarding 
paper used in voting systems, an update would be necessary to 
require detection mechanisms for ballot paper specifications. 
The EAC will work through the HAVA-mandated process to consider 
these revisions.
    Occasionally in an election the locality or precinct will 
run out of ballots for voters. It is an extremely unfortunate 
and avoidable situation. The ability to offer a ballot to a 
voter is fundamental to any free and fair election. Every 
election official I meet is dedicated to facilitating the right 
to vote for their citizens.
    In November 2024, the people of the United States will 
administer and take part in the Nation's 60th Presidential 
election. Our preparations are already well underway. Together, 
we must work to improve elections at all levels of government 
and ensure that issues like those that occurred in Luzerne 
County do not happen again.
    Thank you for your continued support of the EAC and your 
unwavering commitment to election administrators, poll workers, 
and our Nation's public servants. We look forward to working 
closely with you on these and other important matters.
    I would be pleased to address any questions. Thank you.
    [The prepared statement of Mr. Palmer follows:]

              PREPARED STATEMENT OF DONALD PALMER
[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT] 


    Chairman Steil. Thank you very much, Mr. Palmer.
    I now recognize Ms. Hoffman-Mirilovich for the purpose of 
making an opening statement.

             STATEMENT OF ALISHA HOFFMAN-MIRILOVICH

    Ms. Hoffman-Mirilovich. Chairman Steil, Ranking Member 
Morelle, and Members of the Committee, thank you for the 
opportunity to testify today.
    My name is Alisha Hoffman-Mirilovich, and I am a lifelong 
Pennsylvanian and have lived in Luzerne County for 
approximately 18 years. I am a proud community leader and a 
mom.
    I serve as the executive director of Action Together NEPA. 
We are a nonprofit progressive advocacy organization with 
chapters across northeastern Pennsylvania, including one in 
Luzerne County. We advocate for protecting the freedom to vote 
and expanding access to the ballot box, and we work to engage 
and empower a community of voters.
    On election day in 2022, we learned that some polling 
locations were experiencing paper shortages. A court order was 
issued to extend polling times by 2 hours to allow voters 
additional time to vote. Our organization shifted all available 
resources to Luzerne County to make sure voters were aware of 
the extension.
    After election day, Action Together NEPA members and staff 
attended every session of the Board of Elections adjudication 
and certification process. We assisted in locating bipartisan 
volunteers to support in the transcription of emergency 
ballots. We held post-election updates and events, highlighting 
the process that was still underway at the time, and worked to 
ensure that voters understood the steps in the certification 
process.
    We do not yet know the cause of the paper shortage, as 
there is an ongoing investigation by District Attorney Sam 
Sanguedolce. We do know that elections in Luzerne County have 
been plagued by high turnover and loss of institutional memory 
for years.
    Some background on the structure of the Luzerne County 
government and its Elections Bureau may assist the Committee in 
understanding this matter.
    Luzerne is a home rule county with a county council. 
Currently, 10 Republicans and 1 Democrat compose that council. 
The council hires the county manager, who is the head of our 
county administrative government, with the power to hire, 
terminate, and supervise personnel. The county manager oversees 
daily operations of county departments, including the Bureau of 
Elections.
    The Board of Elections is a commission composed of five 
citizen volunteers that works in coordination with the bureau 
to establish policy, but does not directly manage elections 
administration.
    During multiple periods in the last 4 years, the county has 
lacked a permanent elections director for months at a time, 
including the ramp-up to and execution of the 2022 general 
election.
    Earlier this year, a press analysis found that, from 2016 
to 2019, department staff had a median of 17 to 22 years of 
experience. That number fell to roughly 1 year of median 
experience in 2020 and 2021.
    Since December 2019, the bureau has had five different 
directors. Since August 2020, the bureau has had five different 
deputy directors. This chronic turnover does not foster the 
stability and institutional knowledge that is needed to 
seamlessly carry out elections.
    As an organization that cares deeply about any potential 
disenfranchisement or issues that could impact voting, we need 
government at every level to support and fully fund our 
elections.
    This includes providing sufficient funding to ensure 
adequate staffing levels, enough paper and supplies ordered in 
a timely fashion, and professional election administrators put 
in place to provide appropriate responses during and after 
election day.
    These are some measures that can increase faith in our 
elections, and we need our Government to provide the proper 
funding and resources to make that happen.
    Action Together NEPA will be vigilant in our efforts to 
support an election system that reduces errors, responds when 
issues arise, and prioritizes the rights of voters.
    None of us ever want something like this to happen again. 
We hope that the Committee appreciates that the Luzerne County 
community came together, working to fix the problem, to help 
affected voters, and to count eligible votes.
    Thank you for the opportunity to testify today. I look 
forward to answering your questions.
    [The prepared statement of Ms. Hoffman-Mirilovich follows:]

        PREPARED STATEMENT OF ALISHA HOFFMAN-MIRILOVICH
[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT] 

    Chairman Steil. Thank you very much, Ms. Hoffman-
Mirilovich.
    During today's hearing, some recorded testimony will be 
provided via video screens in the hearing room and will be 
broadcast as part of the live coverage.
    The first video to be played is of WNEP reporter Chelsea 
Strub, who took to Facebook Live on election day to report on 
Luzerne County's ballot paper shortage issues. The video offers 
a good overview of the situation of Luzerne County in real time 
on election day 2022.
    While outside her home precinct in Harveys Lake, Ms. Strub 
highlights in her video the problems that she and other voters 
in Luzerne County experienced due to the ballot paper issue on 
election day.
    Let us play the clip.
    Mr. Morelle. Well, I have a parliamentary inquiry before we 
begin.
    Chairman Steil. The gentleman is recognized.
    Mr. Morelle. Is this a witness under oath?
    Chairman Steil. No. Pursuant to rule 20, we are 
establishing procedures and taking such actions as may be 
necessary to carry out the responsibilities of the Committee 
and to facilitate its effective operation.
    Mr. Morelle. I am not sure I understand this. Making the 
video available by unanimous consent, which is what we do with 
written materials, seems appropriate. Anybody who wants to 
watch the video at some point, I think, would be able to do 
that.
    Playing it is akin, in my mind, to me reading all the 
submissions in writing that we typically submit for entry into 
the record. Is there a distinction here that is being made?
    Chairman Steil. There is no distinction that is being made. 
Written records may be inserted into the record, and in this 
case, video will also be entered into the record.
    Mr. Morelle. Well, why do not we just have the link sent to 
everyone? They can watch it at their leisure, just the same way 
that you do with submitted written testimony.
    Chairman Steil. In the decision of the chair, he has made 
the decision--I have made the decision to play.
    Does the gentleman have a further parliamentary inquiry? 
Otherwise, we will play the video.
    Mr. Morelle. Is this period of time--I do not know how long 
the video is--is that coming out of the 5 minutes by one of the 
members of the majority?
    Chairman Steil. No.
    Mr. Morelle. Will we get the additional time that this--who 
is not a witness, apparently, because we cannot cross-examine 
the witness--so this is just additional time being used.
    How do we equalize the time that is being used to watch a 
video that we cannot ask the person in the video any questions? 
I have never seen this done before.
    Chairman Steil. I would--well, I will offer two things. The 
gentleman is welcome to go back and look at last Congress. The 
select Committee that was created by the Speaker, the Select 
Committee on January 6th, did this often. If he did not see 
those hearings, I would suggest that the Ranking Member take 
the time to review those.
    I would also note that, under rule 20, the chair may 
establish such other procedures and take such actions as may be 
necessary to carry out the responsibilities of the Committee in 
the chair's discretion. I am playing this video, unless there 
is a further parliamentary inquiry.
    Mr. Morelle. Well, I would just note that I believe the 
January 6th Committee, which you are referring to, I think it 
was done by unanimous consent. There has not been a motion made 
on unanimous consent here. Obviously, I cannot stop you, but I 
do want to express the minority's opposition to this since we 
cannot ask anyone in the video any questions. They are not 
subject to being under oath when they give testimony. I am not 
really sure what this is.
    Anyway, we will----
    Chairman Steil. The gentleman's objection is noted.
    Mr. Morelle. Thank you.
    Chairman Steil. I am more than happy to take a vote as to 
whether or not this video should be played.
    Mr. Morelle. No. I just register my opposition.
    Chairman Steil. The opposition is recognized.
    Is there a parliamentary inquiry?
    Mrs. Torres. Absolutely. Was this video presented to the 
members of the minority in advance, as the statements are 
presented in advance of any meeting. Witnesses' names and bios 
are often part of the record and given in advance.
    Was this tape made available to the minority prior to 
today's meeting?
    Chairman Steil. The minority Committee staff was made aware 
videos would be played at today's hearing. There is no 
obligation from the majority to provide the videos in advance, 
nor, to my knowledge, was a request for the videos made.
    Now, unless there is a further parliamentary inquiry----
    Mrs. Torres. Was the minority staff notified that this 
video would be played today?
    Chairman Steil. First, there is no obligation to provide 
advance notice. I provided advance notice to try to be as 
forthcoming and transparent as possible to the minority.
    If there is no further parliamentary inquiry, we will play 
the video.
    Mrs. Torres. I do. How is it that you are comparing a 
commission to a full Committee, are very different. You are 
comparing apples to oranges. This is not a commission that--
Committee--a commission hearing. This is a full Committee 
hearing. Yet you are presenting----
    Chairman Steil. May I ask which commission the gentlewoman 
is referring to?
    Mrs. Torres. Well, you mentioned the January 6th 
commission.
    Chairman Steil. That was a Committee. That was a select 
Committee created by Speaker Pelosi.
    With no further parliamentary inquiries being recognized, 
we will roll the video.
    [Video shown.]
    [The Chelsea Strub transcript referred to follows:]
    [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT] 

    

    Chairman Steil. Again, that was Ms. Strub with the local 
affiliate of--or the affiliate WNEP.
    I will now begin our questions today, followed by the 
Ranking Member. We will then alternate between the parties. I 
now recognize myself for the purpose of questioning our 
witnesses.
    Thank you all for taking your time and being here with us 
today.
    Mr. Bognet, you ran in Pennsylvania's Eighth Congressional 
District. What percentage of Luzerne County is, roughly, in the 
Eighth Congressional District in Pennsylvania?
    Mr. Bognet. Luzerne County accounts for approximately 38, 
39 percent of the population in the district. Less people 
voted--less votes were counted than, percentage-wise, we 
thought would be in Luzerne County.
    Chairman Steil. About 38 percent of the congressional 
district is in Luzerne County. What percentage of Luzerne 
County is in the Eighth Congressional District? About 85 
percent? Is that roughly accurate?
    Mr. Bognet. Eighty-five percent. The rest is in Mr. 
Meuser's district.
    Chairman Steil. Okay. Where were you on the ballot in the 
November 2020 election? You were running for the Eighth 
Congressional District, correct?
    Mr. Bognet. That is right.
    Chairman Steil. When did you or your campaign become aware 
that precincts in Luzerne County did not have ballot paper on 
election day?
    Mr. Bognet. Very early in the morning. I hit about 16 
precincts on election day going around greeting voters. We 
started to hear very early in the morning, I would say in the 9 
o'clock hour, we started to hear from voters calling me, 
texting me, texting my campaign saying: They are turning us 
away. They do not have paper. They will not let us vote. What 
do we do? We are suspicious about doing it on provisional 
ballots because of all the problems. What should we do?
    That was the first that we heard about it.
    Chairman Steil. About 9, 9 o'clock, somewhere in the 9 
o'clock hour, you began to hear about it.
    Polls open in Pennsylvania at 7 a.m. Is that correct?
    Mr. Bognet. That is correct.
    Chairman Steil. Less than 3 hours into election day 
problems began to arise.
    Are you aware of voters being turned away at the polls in 
Luzerne County on election day?
    Mr. Bognet. Yes. I mean, we heard multiple stories. We had 
a hotline set up. We had hundreds of calls to that hotline. We 
had affidavits submitted. People that were told to leave and 
leave their phone number and they would be called back later in 
the day to come back happened in some precincts.
    Chairman Steil. A whole series of problems. Many people 
were unable to vote.
    Did you or your campaign bring legal action?
    Mr. Bognet. We did. We brought a lawsuit in the post-
election period to try to get a ballot reconciliation of the 
people--the number of people who signed in to vote versus the 
number of votes that were counted.
    Chairman Steil. You brought forward a legal action.
    What was the Luzerne County Board of Elections' response to 
your legal--let me ask first. Your legal action, was that to 
the Luzerne County Board of Elections?
    Mr. Bognet. Correct.
    Chairman Steil. What was the response of the Luzerne County 
Board of Elections to your legal action?
    Mr. Bognet. Well, of course, they fought it. They showed 
up. Ms. McBride testified. That is the only time she has 
testified so far under oath about what happened.
    They fought it. They said everything's fine. A judge kind 
of arbitrated and got them to agree that they would release 
within the next few days a precinct-by-precinct spreadsheet of 
who signed in to vote versus who voted. Of course, when they 
did that, there was something like a 4-to 5,000 disparity.
    Chairman Steil. Has the county elections director provided 
an explanation on how the ballot paper shortage occurred or 
answered any of your questions regarding this fiasco?
    Mr. Bognet. She has refused to answer any questions at any 
public hearing, has never said on the record anything, and 
continues to refuse, did not attend here today.
    Chairman Steil. It is my understanding, then, that the 
Board of Elections referred this matter to the district 
attorney for investigation.
    Do you agree with the board's decision to refer this to the 
district attorney?
    Mr. Bognet. That was an extreme abdication of their duty. 
That was during a period where certification would occur 
afterwards. They refused to investigate what happened before 
certifying. There was incredible citizen outrage, hundreds of 
people attending meetings that usually two or three people come 
to.
    They would not answer questions then, and they kind of used 
the DA's investigation as an, ``Oh, yes, they will take care of 
it. Maybe next month we will hear about it.'' They never 
answered a single question from a voter on how this fiasco 
occurred.
    Chairman Steil. Since the Board of Elections handed this 
investigation off to the district attorney on November 14, 
2022, has anything happened? Has there been a report? Has 
anyone been prosecuted?
    Mr. Bognet. There have been no reports. There have been no 
prosecutions. They have used the district attorney's 
investigation as a shield to not have to answer questions. I 
believe they have used it to help cover up.
    Now, my understanding is the district attorney is doing a 
criminal investigation. Who knows if criminal activity 
occurred? He will investigate that.
    What about gross incompetence? What about forgetting to 
order ballot paper? They will not answer questions. Those same 
people are going to be conducting the May election, which is 
outrageous.
    Chairman Steil. The fact that there has been no report, no 
evidence coming forward as to what happened, who is involved, 
there is no report from the district attorney, no report from 
your secretary of state, no report from the Elections Board in 
this case, in your opinion, does that enhance the confidence of 
voters in Luzerne County regarding their elections or does it 
hurt their confidence in the elections?
    Mr. Bognet. The voters of Luzerne County are disgusted. 
They have lost faith in their elections. They have lost faith 
in their Election Bureau.
    This is not the first election we have had problems. There 
were problems in the 2020 and 2021 elections. This takes the 
cake, of course. They ran out of paper.
    The amount of voters that have called me and told me that 
they may not vote ever again because they do not believe their 
vote matters, it is really a sad day for American democracy.
    Chairman Steil. Thank you very much, Mr. Bognet. I 
appreciate your time with us today.
    Let me shift briefly, if I can, to you, Ms. Alisha Hoffman-
Mirilovich.
    In this election, did every eligible citizen who wanted to 
vote, were they able to vote? Yes or no?
    Ms. Hoffman-Mirilovich. I do not know.
    Chairman Steil. You do not know if there were individuals 
in Luzerne County who were attempting to vote but were unable 
to?
    Ms. Hoffman-Mirilovich. I have no knowledge. I do not. I am 
not part of the administration.
    Chairman Steil. Understood. Okay. You are unclear. I think, 
by the end of today's hearing, maybe that will be cleared up 
for you.
    Should every eligible citizen who wants to vote be able to 
vote, in your opinion? Yes or no?
    Ms. Hoffman-Mirilovich. Absolutely. That is part of what 
our organization fights for every day.
    Chairman Steil. Do you consider voters being turned away 
from their polling location by election officials on election 
day a form of voter suppression? Yes or no?
    Ms. Hoffman-Mirilovich. Yes.
    Chairman Steil. You are unsure if citizens were turned away 
and unable to vote. I think we will be able to show that later. 
You said you do not know that. If that is the case, you do view 
that as a form of voter suppression?
    Ms. Hoffman-Mirilovich. Yes.
    Chairman Steil. I have no further questions.
    I will now recognize the Ranking Member, Mr. Morelle, for 
the purpose of asking questions to the witnesses for 5 minutes.
    Mr. Morelle. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
    Let me start. Mr. Bognet, you indicated that the county is 
not answering questions. Are you aware that the Luzerne County 
solicitor's office advised the Election Board to decline the 
invitation to testify here due to the ongoing investigation, 
that they are acting under advice given to them by the Luzerne 
County solicitor's office?
    Mr. Bognet. I read that in the newspaper, yes.
    Mr. Morelle. You did? So you are aware of that.
    Would not it, in your view, given that information, would 
not it be prudent for them not to testify? Do you think they 
should violate----
    Mr. Bognet. I cannot opine on the prudency, but I think the 
citizens deserve answers.
    Mr. Morelle. Well, they absolutely deserve answers. This is 
catastrophic, in my view. This is a complete breakdown of 
whatever happened. I do not know what happened. Sadly, I have 
not learned anything about what happened.
    You just said a few minutes ago that there was a cover-up, 
and I am suggesting that the county solicitor's office advised 
the Election Board not to testify because of the ongoing 
investigation. I am trying to reconcile those two different 
things.
    Mr. Bognet. CYA. They are CYA. The lawyers are trying to 
cover their butt.
    Mr. Morelle. You think the Luzerne County lawyers are 
trying to cover their rear end by suggesting people cooperate 
with the district attorney's investigation rather than 
testifying in Washington?
    Mr. Bognet. By not ever answering a question from a voter. 
Four-and-a-half months, no answers. Zero.
    Mr. Morelle. Do you have personal knowledge to the extent 
of which county officials have cooperated or not with the 
district attorney's investigation?
    Mr. Bognet. I have no way of knowing that.
    Mr. Morelle. Okay.
    Can I ask you, did you file an election contest with the 
House?
    Mr. Bognet. No.
    Mr. Morelle. Despite the fact you had these concerns about 
a potential cover-up?
    Mr. Bognet. Yes.
    Mr. Morelle. Can you tell me why?
    Mr. Bognet. We looked at all the evidence, and as we 
learned about what a House Administration contest is, we did 
not--we do not have the answers that we need. That is why we 
are so happy you guys are looking into it.
    Our understanding was a full contest would deprive the 
citizens of the Eighth District of Pennsylvania of 
representation for months or even years while it was worked 
out. I did not want to deprive the citizens of the Eighth 
District of representation. All I want is answers to what 
occurred and how it happened.
    Mr. Morelle. Do you, Mr. Bognet, do you believe Joe Biden 
won the 2020 Presidential election?
    Mr. Bognet. In 2020, Mr. Biden received more votes in the 
electoral college, which is how we adjudicate how Presidents 
are elected. By that standard, he is the President. Although I 
have profound disagreement with the way the election was 
handled in 2020 in Pennsylvania, and I have fought for more 
election reform.
    Mr. Morelle. Well, I was not asking if he won the electoral 
college. Do you think he won the popular election vote?
    Mr. Bognet. I believe that he won the popular election vote 
from the reports I have seen in the media, but I know in 
Pennsylvania it was not a really well done election.
    Mr. Morelle. Well, let me ask this one last question, and 
then I want to shift over.
    Who orders the paper for the election? Who is responsible 
for that?
    Mr. Bognet. That is a great question, and I hope you guys 
would ask Ms. McBride and Ms. Williams that when they get their 
butt down here.
    Mr. Morelle. You do not know who--you are suggesting there 
is a cover-up, but you do not know by whom?
    Mr. Bognet. We do not know who. They will not answer 
questions. They will not tell us who is responsible for it. 
They have abdicated their responsibility to tell us who orders 
the paper. That is what we want to know.
    Mr. Morelle. Okay.
    If I could ask, Mr. Gibbons, you testified to the fact 
that--or you made some representations about the State, the 
State essentially being responsible for the chaos that ensued. 
Is that correct?
    Mr. Gibbons. I would not put full responsibility with them. 
I was in Luzerne for the month of November throughout the 
ballot canvas----
    Mr. Morelle. Well, let me interrupt you. You said: It is a 
failure by the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania and its State 
Department. Then you said later: Pennsylvania has a reputation 
for inconsistent election throughout its 67 counties, which can 
be largely attributed to a lack of leadership from the 
Pennsylvania Department of State. So----
    Mr. Gibbons. Yes. There are differences in how counties 
handle curing undated ballots. There is inconsistency among the 
counties throughout the State.
    Mr. Morelle. Okay. Let me----
    Mr. Gibbons. It is disappointing not to see the State show 
up at the canvas or on election day to provide support to 
Luzerne.
    Mr. Morelle. Well, let me reclaim my time. I am sorry. I 
hate to do this, but I am limited.
    The letter from the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania Department 
of State says: ``The administration of elections in 
Pennsylvania is primarily the responsibility of county 
officials. Each one of the 67 counties is responsible for 
ensuring that elections in the county are run effectively. We 
have very few exceptions unrelated to the issues here. The 
State has limited authority under the election code to dictate 
how counties run their elections.''
    Are you familiar with that?
    Mr. Gibbons. Yes. The county failed.
    Mr. Morelle. Are you--yes, I----
    Mr. Gibbons. The State was nowhere to be found.
    Mr. Morelle. Well, I do not know. Well, the State on that 
day--was the State supposed to step in in the midst of all this 
chaos?
    Are you familiar with the----
    Mr. Gibbons. Luzerne needed help on election day.
    Mr. Morelle. Are you familiar with the home rule charter 
rules in the State of Pennsylvania?
    Mr. Gibbons. Not familiar enough to discuss it here.
    Mr. Morelle. Okay. I yield back.
    Chairman Steil. The gentleman's time has expired.
    Mr. Loudermilk is recognized.
    Mr. Morelle. Excuse me. I am sorry. May I ask unanimous 
consent to enter into the record an article dated February 15, 
2023, entitled, ``Why election problems continue to plague this 
Northeast Pennsylvania county,'' which describes much of the 
election-related dysfunction in Luzerne County in recent years.
    I also ask unanimous consent to enter an article dated 
March 20, 2023, entitled, ``All three Luzerne County officials 
invited to testify at election hearing will not go''; a letter 
from the Pennsylvania Deputy Secretary of State Jonathan Marks 
to Chairman Steil declining the majority's invitation to 
testify at this hearing; a copy of the Luzerne County home rule 
charter; a screenshot of the Pennsylvania secretary of state's 
senior staff page showing the position of director of the 
Bureau of Election Security and Technology as vacant.
    Chairman Steil. Despite these documents not being provided 
to the majority prior to the hearing, without objection, so 
ordered.
    [The information referred to follows:]
    [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT] 

    Chairman Steil. Mr. Loudermilk is now recognized for 5 
minutes for the purpose of questioning our witnesses.
    Mr. Loudermilk. Well, thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    Thank you all for being here. Very important issues.
    At one time, this Committee was considered the parking 
committee, until 2020, because part of our area of jurisdiction 
is Federal elections. That catapulted us really into a high 
visibility position. More than that, it is very important that 
we deal with these issues. This is highly concerning.
    Mr. Gibbons, a simple question. Why is it important that 
voters have confidence that their votes will actually be 
counted?
    Mr. Gibbons. It is important that voters show up and take 
part in the process. Without confidence in the election system 
to run properly, some of those voters may not show up.
    Mr. Loudermilk. I agree with you. I have had several voters 
tell me, ``I want to make sure that my vote counts before I go 
to the poll.'' Because many voters have to take time off work, 
or there are long lines, especially in very popular elections.
    We saw this in Georgia during the 2020 election runoff 
period because of rumors, whether founded or unfounded, that 
there were problems.
    With the general election in 2020, we had a runoff election 
for the Senate. We had much lower turnout for that runoff, much 
lower than we have had in other turnouts in previous elections. 
Many of the people said they just believed that their vote 
would not count, so it made a significant difference.
    To me, that is a form of voter suppression, when you make 
people think that their vote is not going to count.
    With that, regarding what is going on in Pennsylvania, 
would not having ballots available for voters who vote in 
person at their precinct on election day be a form of voter 
suppression?
    Mr. Gibbons. Yes.
    Mr. Loudermilk. Okay, thank you.
    At this point, I have no other questions, Mr. Chair, and I 
will save the rest for the second panel. I yield back.
    Chairman Steil. The gentleman yields back.
    Ms. Sewell is recognized for 5 minutes for asking 
questions.
    Ms. Sewell. Thank you so much, Mr. Chairman, and I want to 
thank all of our witnesses here today. As the Ranking Member on 
the Subcommittee on Federal Elections, and as a person who 
represents my hometown of Selma, Alabama, where voters 
marched--many, you know, were bludgeoned on a bridge like John 
Lewis--for the equal right of all Americans to vote.
    This is very personal for me, and look, I think that 
anytime a voter, a legitimate voter finds it harder, more 
difficult to vote, is not given access to vote, it is a bad 
thing. I think every one of us on this Committee believes that.
    I also know that we need more resources in order to give to 
States and to localities in order to effectively be able to do 
their jobs.
    I also understand that Luzerne had many problems, some 
structural, and I think that, Ms. Hoffman-Mirilovich, you 
actually talked about that a little bit. Can you explain just 
some of the structural problems that have historically plagued 
Luzerne County?
    Then also talk to me about whether or not there is adequate 
funding really to allow not just the elected officials to do 
their job, but also to make sure that we have proper oversight 
to make sure that people are doing the right thing?
    Ms. Hoffman-Mirilovich. As I said in my oral as well as 
written testimony, we have had an extremely high turnover----
    Ms. Sewell. Turnover.
    Ms. Hoffman-Mirilovich.--In our Bureau of Elections. As was 
pointed out, we do have a home rule charter that is very 
different than any other county in Pennsylvania. I will say 
that we have been talking about the director of elections being 
Beth Gilbert. I would like to point out that she was acting 
director of elections because she was hired, as in my 
testimony, my written testimony, was hired the summer before as 
the deputy director. She is not the director of elections right 
now. They hired a director of elections.
    Ms. Sewell. Why do you think that there was such high 
turnover in this particular position?
    Ms. Hoffman-Mirilovich. I think that there is not enough 
funding to pay people properly. I think that is one. This is a 
lot of work. If you are not administering one election, you are 
getting ready for the next election.
    I think that there is a lot of negativity to this. We see 
this on council meetings as well, from citizens from both sides 
of the aisle, like, there is anger. Things happen all the time 
with that.
    I would say that this negative environment, toxic 
environment in some cases, is one that attributes to that, of 
also just not paying and finding proper officials who are ready 
to go.
    Ms. Sewell. Good staff, exactly.
    Ms. Hoffman-Mirilovich. Or they want to be mentored, and 
they are going into a position to be mentored, but then we end 
up with high turnover.
    Ms. Sewell. Commissioner Palmer, as a commissioner on the 
Election Assistance Commission, do you feel that you have 
adequate funding in order to provide grant opportunities to 
States and localities so that they can adequately fund, mentor, 
train appropriate staff to conduct elections across this 
Nation?
    Mr. Palmer. I think that most of the funding takes place at 
the local level, so it is a reflection of what their budgets 
are. I think there is a role for the State and Federal 
Government to provide additional funding or supportive funding 
to help counties, particularly those that have problems with 
resources.
    Ms. Sewell. What do you think about Federal oversight, is 
Federal oversight necessary when we think about election 
integrity and election administration?
    Mr. Palmer. Well, I think there is a limited role for the 
Federal Government. I would not even call it oversight. I mean, 
I served at the State level, and, you know, there is a limited 
amount of uniformity and oversight that the State provides for 
so many counties that are on the ground administering 
elections. In the end, the counties themselves are on the 
ground. They are the ones, they are administering the election.
    Ms. Sewell. They are, but at the end of the day, if States 
and localities go amuck or are not sufficient in their 
administration of their elections, like Luzerne--I think all of 
us know this--Federal oversight, being able to make sure that 
there is someone, you know, making sure that there is 
uniformity, there are more resources and the like.
    Right now with the Shelby v. Holder decision, there really 
is not any Federal oversight of elections at all, and we know 
that Federal elections are in the purview of the Constitution, 
Congress. Look, I just wanted to also admit for the record this 
ACLU statement with respect to the ACLU of Pennsylvania in 
terms of not having sufficient funding.
    [The ACLU statement referred to follows:]
    [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT] 

    
    Chairman Steil. Without objection, so ordered.
    Ms. Sewell. Last, I just want to say that I think it is 
really important that we look at the President's budget. I know 
that he suggested $5 billion for the Election Assistance 
Commission to be able to provide grants for administration of 
elections.
    I think that we all owe it to make sure that we have--we 
can do everything we possibly can to make sure that local 
governments have the sufficient funding they need in order to 
do their job. Thank you.
    Chairman Steil. The gentlewoman yields back.
    Mr. Griffith is now recognized for 5 minutes.
    Mr. Griffith. Thank you, Chairman.
    Mr. Palmer, welcome. So let me ask you about something 
point blank. You were serving Governor McDonnell in an election 
capacity. If this had happened in any of the cities or counties 
in the Commonwealth of Virginia, recognizing that the cities in 
Virginia have charters that are unique and individual to 
themselves, would he not have had you and your colleagues from 
the Department of Elections on the carpet to find out what the 
heck was going on? Give us a full report on that.
    Mr. Palmer. Well, unfortunately, these things do occur 
occasionally, and in the Commonwealth of Virginia, we have a 
State Board of Elections, and we had an investigation of the 
similar type of deficiencies at the polling place on an 
election day or during the early voting process.
    Usually----
    Mr. Griffith. It would have been taken care of.
    Mr. Palmer [continuing]. there would have been an 
investigation, and people would have been called down to the 
carpet to explain what happened and how can we fix this.
    Mr. Griffith. Ms. Hoffman-Mirilovich, I hope I got close.
    Ms. Hoffman-Mirilovich. Close, yes.
    Mr. Griffith. You said in your testimony that you caution 
us that the district attorney's investigation is ongoing, and 
therefore, we do not have a full and complete accounting of 
what occurred on Election Day.
    Now, I do not know what the charter says, but I doubt the 
charter gives the district attorney the ability to look into 
negligence or malfeasance in office, but only to criminal 
matters. Am I somehow wrong on that? Is the Commonwealth 
different, that their prosecutor investigates negligent cases?
    Ms. Hoffman-Mirilovich. I do not know that information.
    Mr. Griffith. Okay. I appreciate that. Did not expect you 
did. I caution that we put too much reliance on the district 
attorney because he is only looking at crimes. I have not heard 
anybody allege that a crime occurred here. What I have heard 
alleged is there was malfeasance in office, negligence, and 
incompetency.
    Mr. Bognet, is that my understanding of what you are 
concerned about and why you want answers?
    Mr. Bognet. Well, that is a major portion. I assume that if 
the D.A. is investigating he at least has a good faith reason 
to look at criminal activity. I do not know if criminal 
activity occurred. I do know gross incompetence occurred.
    Mr. Griffith. Let me ask you this, though, it is a Federal 
election, does he have jurisdiction?
    Mr. Bognet. I do not know the answer to that.
    Mr. Griffith. I do not know the answer to that either. 
Interesting question. It is run by the State, but it is a 
Federal election.
    Alright. We got a couple of witnesses who are not here. 
What were their names again, the people who refused to come in 
and testify that you want answers from?
    Mr. Bognet. Ms. McBride, the head of the Election Bureau, 
and Ms. Williams, the head of the Election Commission.
    Mr. Griffith. Do you think this Committee should subpoena 
them to testify?
    Mr. Bognet. A hundred percent.
    Mr. Griffith. Mr. Gibbons, do you think they should be 
subpoenaed to testify?
    Mr. Gibbons. I am uncertain.
    Mr. Griffith. You are uncertain. Is that because you are 
worried that there might have been some criminal activity, and 
they might take the Fifth instead of coming to testify?
    Mr. Gibbons. I am not sure. The D.A.'s investigation did 
complicate the matter. We were there just trying to get facts 
and figure out what happened, and it became even more difficult 
when it was referred to the district attorney.
    Mr. Griffith. Yes, but that would not be that indicative, 
if there was? I mean, if they think there is some kind of 
criminal activity, I mean, they are not here today, they 
clearly are trying to hide something.
    Do they think there is some kind of criminal activity? Is 
that why it was referred to the district attorney? I mean, I do 
not know. I am just trying to get answers because I believe 
that there was clear incompetence and malfeasance. I am just 
trying to get the answers. Why would not they want to come 
forward, and they still have their Fifth Amendment rights, I am 
not taking that away from anybody, but is that why everybody 
has clammed up?
    Mr. Gibbons. I would leave that decision to the Committee.
    Mr. Griffith. You are an attorney. You are an attorney, 
correct?
    Mr. Gibbons. Correct.
    Mr. Griffith. Isn't it usual in a case where there is no 
liability--these people are not going to be sued for money 
themselves. They might lose their job, but they are not going 
to be sued for money themselves. Would not a normal person 
immediately assume that maybe they think they committed some 
kind of criminal offense?
    Mr. Gibbons. If it would help get to the bottom of this, it 
could be a good idea.
    Mr. Griffith. To subpoena them?
    Mr. Gibbons. Yes.
    Mr. Griffith. I appreciate that.
    Ms. Hoffman-Mirilovich, do you think we ought to get these 
answers? I mean, I think you do, but tell me on the record, do 
you think we ought to get these answers and subpoena these 
witnesses in here?
    Ms. Hoffman-Mirilovich. I do think that we should get these 
answers, but I will say in the articles that are referenced in 
my written testimony, Denise Williams, the Elections Board 
director, is, first of all, a voluntary position, but second, 
was wanting to come until the county solicitor told them not to 
attend.
    I do know that just from the written newspaper record, as 
well as that the same thing happened because the chair of the 
county council, Kendra Radle, was also invited.
    Mr. Griffith. Mr. Chairman, I think we need to look into 
this aspect and subpoena these witnesses. I think we ought to 
subpoena the county solicitor to find out why he is interfering 
in the investigation of a Federal election by the Federal body 
responsible for making sure there is integrity in the election. 
I yield back.
    Chairman Steil. The gentleman yields back.
    Mrs. Torres is recognized for 5 minutes.
    Mrs. Torres. Thank you.
    Mr. Bognet, I could totally understand your frustration. It 
is unacceptable to have--to run out of, you know, basic 
supplies.
    My question really is to Commissioner Palmer. You mentioned 
in your testimony that the EAC is working to launch a field 
services program so that you can closely work together in order 
to improve the quality of monitoring.
    In the case of Mr. Bognet, it was not just monitoring the 
day of. Obviously, you know, we have to look ahead long before 
an election. We have seen across the country where we have 
State, you know, legislative bodies that are prohibiting in 
ordering the closure of certain polling locations that target 
minorities and communities.
    Twelve-hour, you know, wait to cast your vote, I would say 
that that is also a major suppression of the vote.
    In the case of Mr. Bognet, I am not sure if Democrats were 
told, you can cut to the front of the line, and, Republicans, 
you have to wait until we run out of paper. That would be, you 
know, a gross criminal matter, I would think.
    The issue of the long lines is just as important as the 
issue of running out of paper. The issue of having to vote on a 
provisional ballot is also an important issue.
    I do not--you know, as a voter, as a--in my community I 
never want to vote through a provisional ballot because I have 
a voting record that I want to maintain. I have never missed an 
election since I became a U.S. citizen here.
    Funding is an issue. How can we help you improve conditions 
so that we are monitoring not just Republican red areas, but we 
are monitoring because we care about all voters?
    Mr. Palmer. Well, I think that, you know--and we appreciate 
the funding at the EAC, and what we try to do is take an 
assistance role for the States and localities. What that means 
is, how do we avoid another situation in Luzerne, is you need 
to be prepared, you need to have checklists, you need to have 
the resources available.
    Mrs. Torres. I mean, they have been changing clerks and 
staff like we change our clothes every day. So how can you 
improve and----
    Mr. Palmer. Right.
    Mrs. Torres [continuing]. help them with technical 
assistance if they have zero experience?
    Mr. Palmer. Well, when it comes to that, you know, 
professional training of election administrators to improve the 
recruitment and the retention of those. You know, there is sort 
of a negativity environment right now, where we are trying to 
retain election administrators.
    Many are retiring or moving on to other professions, some 
because of the negativity of the issue, some because of the 
scrutiny. A lot of election administrators understand it comes 
with the business.
    I mean, if you are going to be in the business of democracy 
and providing, facilitating the right to vote, you know, it is 
a valuable experience to serve as that. There is also the 
scrutiny that if you fail and there are deficiencies, there are 
consequences and so----
    Mrs. Torres. I mean, scrutiny is good, and if you make a 
mistake, usually you try to avoid making those mistakes by 
being informed and asking a lot of questions ahead and knowing 
who to call. In your opinion, I mean, what can we do? I am 
asking you because----
    Mr. Palmer. Yes, I think we need to----
    Mrs. Torres [continuing]. this is a huge problem.
    Mr. Palmer. I think we need to increase the professionalism 
and training of election administrators.
    Mrs. Torres. Is that something the Federal Government can 
do to assist?
    Mr. Palmer. We can do that. It serves that purpose of 
assisting the States and localities in the administration of 
their elections and the improvement of Federal elections, yes.
    Mrs. Torres. Ms. Mirilovich, can you comment on that?
    Ms. Hoffman-Mirilovich. Yes. Our--I have been saying from 
the beginning, as has our organization, that we need more 
funding in our elections so that we can avoid this chronic 
turnover and that we can better train election workers, whether 
they are poll workers, whether they are the workers in the 
actual office of the Bureau of Elections.
    Mrs. Torres. Is there a role for Federal oversight when it 
comes to denying people in poor communities, you know, the 
right to have a polling location near their community?
    Ms. Hoffman-Mirilovich. I think that every level of 
government needs to take part in helping with this funding.
    Mrs. Torres. Okay. What is your opinion of denying people a 
restroom break or the ability to receive a donation of a 
sandwich or water when you are standing in line for long, long 
hours? I mean, you know, as a working mom, I do not know that I 
ever had that kind of money to pay for a babysitter to stand 
for 12 hours.
    Ms. Hoffman-Mirilovich. As a nonprofit organization, we 
fully support being able to do that because you want to give 
everyone the opportunity to vote.
    Mrs. Torres. Thank you, and I yield back.
    Chairman Steil. The gentlewoman yields back.
    Dr. Murphy is recognized for 5 minutes.
    Dr. Murphy. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    You know, I want to step back. I think everybody on the 
Committee wants good elections for our entire country. I mean, 
I do not want to make this a Republican or Democratic issue. 
What happened in this county was abysmal, flat-out abysmal.
    You know, I just have a couple comments. I do not really 
think this is a Republican-Democrat issue. It brought up an 
issue that needs to be addressed. Let me just ask a few 
questions because it is for my own edification.
    Mr. Bognet, is there any difference on Election Day--is 
early voting--how long is early voting in that county?
    Mr. Bognet. I believe it is a week before the election.
    Dr. Murphy. Alright. Is it mail-in or in-person voting?
    Mr. Bognet. You can do either, but mail-in is much more 
common.
    Dr. Murphy. Alright. You can physically go and vote. Okay. 
Do you know if there is any historic, any partisan split on 
voting day between----
    Mr. Bognet. Yes.
    Dr. Murphy [continuing]. Republicans and Democrats?
    Mr. Bognet. There is a profound split. In Pennsylvania, 
since we brought in no-excuse mail-in in 2019, Democrats 
typically win vast majority, 70, 80 percent of the mail-in 
vote. Republicans typically win Election Day vote.
    In Luzerne County, I won 62 percent of the Election Day 
vote overall. Our campaign estimates that in the places where 
there were paper shortages which tended to be rural, I won 68 
percent of the vote there.
    There is definitely an equal protection problem, that if, 
you know, something like this happens on Election Day, it tends 
to disproportionately hurt Republicans in the same way, if 
something happened in the mail-ins, it would tend to 
disproportionately hurt Democrats.
    Dr. Murphy. Of this county, what proportion was this county 
in your district of population-wise?
    Mr. Bognet. About 38 percent.
    Dr. Murphy. Okay so a third of it. It was significant.
    Mr. Bognet. It is the biggest county.
    Dr. Murphy. I can understand, I would say that if I am a 
Democrat or Republican, I can understand concern because your 
basically biggest population base had their voting program 
absolutely screwed up.
    Does anybody have any idea who instructed the chairman of 
the Election Board--Bureau--to seek assistance from the 
district attorney?
    Mr. Bognet. I can speak--I can speak to that. The Election 
Bureau brought up, at their post-election thing, that upon 
advice of counsel, Luzerne County solicitor, we are going to 
send this over to the district attorney. Those are questions 
that should be asked to those folks, but, you know, many voters 
have said to me, it seems like they are looking for a way to 
not answer questions publicly. They do not want to take 
responsibility for this----
    Dr. Murphy. You mean the Election Board?
    Mr. Bognet. The Election Board and the Election Bureau, the 
employees that were doing the election, they have never 
answered a single question in public hearing from any voter on 
how this happened. We still do not know, as the Ranking Member 
said, who was responsible for ordering the paper.
    Dr. Murphy. You know, I will just submit this, and I would 
say this, again, if it is Republican or Democrat, the absence 
of answering a question for it somewhat implies complicity. I 
am not saying it is, but it implies complicity, and it implies 
knowledge of some perhaps wrongdoing.
    They are not taking the Fifth, but they are shifting the 
blame. That is just unfortunate.
    You know, again, we want every person legally in this 
country to vote and have that vote counted. Period. Then let 
the cards fall where they may.
    I am kind of--I am just very disappointed. I am just 
imagining if this had happened in my district, I would have 
been, as we say in eastern North Carolina, bless my heart, but 
I would have been very, very irritated.
    I guess I still do not understand why this moved to a D.A. 
unless they were referring a criminal matter, but it seems to 
be more that it would be just that we do not want to answer the 
questions. We want to get it boggled down for some type of 
legal dispute.
    Mr. Bognet. Well, in the press reports on why they would 
not come to this hearing, they said, the DA is investigating, 
but also we have another election coming up in 8 weeks. In May, 
we have our primary, and we do not want it to interfere with 
that.
    There is always another election coming.
    Dr. Murphy. Absolutely.
    Mr. Bognet. These same people that bungled this election 
are going to be doing our election in May. How does that sit 
with a resident of Luzerne County who is wondering will their 
vote count in May?
    Dr. Murphy. It is three Democrats, two Republicans on the 
Election Board----
    Mr. Bognet. That is correct.
    Dr. Murphy [continuing]. as I understand it. How are they 
comprise--I mean, how are they voted upon?
    Mr. Bognet. I believe they are appointed by council, and 
then two Republicans, two Dems, and then they pick the third 
one, who is the chairman, Ms. Williams, who is a Democrat.
    Also Ms. McBride, the head of the Election Board is an 
elected Democrat member of the Wilkes-Barre City Council. I 
agree with the Ranking Member that there is more Republicans on 
the council, but the people who actually administer the 
election, that is Democrat-controlled.
    Dr. Murphy. Yes. Again, I am taking Republican-Democrat out 
of this. I really am. If a Republican county was doing this, I 
would be just as ticked off because that would be embarrassing 
to me. I just think we have a lot of work to do.
    I think the State of Pennsylvania needs to kick in before 
the Federal Government needs to kick in. The Federal Government 
does not need to be everything for everybody for every citizen 
in this country. That is why we have cities, counties, and 
States.
    Thank you, Mr. Chairman, I yield back.
    Chairman Steil. The gentleman yields back.
    Mr. Carey is now recognized for 5 minutes.
    Mr. Carey. Thanks, Chairman. Mr. Chairman, I ask unanimous 
consent to enter into the record a statement from a Mark 
Benjes, Luzerne County resident.
    Chairman Steil. Without objection, so ordered.
    [The Mark Benjes statement referred to follows:]

    [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT] 

    

    Mr. Carey. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    His statement is very short but pretty telling, and I will 
quickly read it:
    I entered the polling place at approximately 9 a.m. on 
Election Day. I was not allowed to run my ballot through the 
scanner tabulator because the paper was too thick. End of 
statement.
    I am going to go into some questioning.
    Mr. Gibbons, were you on the ground in Luzerne County on 
Election Day?
    Mr. Gibbons. On Election Day, I was in Harrisburg, 
Pennsylvania, at our Election Day headquarters.
    Mr. Carey. Were you aware of Luzerne County having any 
election administration issues prior to the 2022 election?
    Mr. Gibbons. Yes. For the 2022 election, about a week 
before, they had mailed out 937 duplicate ballots, which we 
were in touch with the county on figuring out how they were 
going to resolve that issue.
    Mr. Carey. Did you attend any of the Luzerne County Board 
of Election meetings on 11/14, 11/28, or 11/30?
    Mr. Gibbons. Yes. I traveled to Luzerne on Thursday 
following the election and was there up until probably about 
the 20th or so, I believe.
    Mr. Carey. Generally speaking, you heard the testimony of 
the residents that were there. I mean, what was the general 
feeling from the residents that you saw?
    Mr. Gibbons. There is great frustration from the residents. 
It was hard not to share that frustration with them being 
there. We were just trying to build facts and figure out how 
many ballots might be outstanding that needed to be counted, 
and throughout the entire canvass, no one from the county could 
really answer how many ballots still needed to be counted.
    Mr. Carey. Okay. I mean, did the Board of Election at any 
time talk about the steps that they were going to take at any 
one of these Committee meetings--any one of these Committee--or 
the meetings that they had, did any one of them, any board 
members say, These are the steps that we are going to do move 
forward so this does not happen again?
    Mr. Gibbons. I do not recall anything to the extent of how 
they would prevent this from happening in the future.
    Mr. Carey. Did they basically just say the investigation 
was going to be handed over to the district attorney? Is that 
my understanding?
    Mr. Gibbons. Yes. They had a public meeting, I believe, on 
November 14th, where they heard public comment, and at the end 
of that meeting, they voted to refer the matter to the district 
attorney.
    Mr. Carey. Any idea how many people were actually on the 
ballot, or were there any issues that were on the ballot at the 
time?
    Mr. Gibbons. I do not have that with me right now.
    Mr. Carey. Okay. Anybody else know that? I mean, were there 
any other ballot issues that were on the ballot at that time?
    Mr. Bognet. There were no ballot propositions. There was a 
Governor's race, a Senate race, two congressional races, many 
State legislative races.
    Mr. Carey. Okay, Okay. Okay.
    Thank you, Mr. Chairman, I yield back.
    Chairman Steil. The gentleman yields back.
    Mr. D'Esposito is now recognized for 5 minutes.
    Mr. D'Esposito. Well, thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    Following a career in the NYPD, I did spend some time in 
the Board of Elections taking care of physical and cyber and 
polling-place security. The Board of Elections, or the 
Elections Commission in general, I mean, they spent the year, 
in essence, preparing for the next election.
    Obviously, there are many things that they do for the 
community so that people have the right to vote, registrations, 
things of that nature.
    In essence, they spend the year preparing for early voting 
and they prepare for Election Day.
    To any of your knowledge, was there ever any conversations 
amongst the election officials that there could possibly be a 
ballot shortage?
    Mr. Bognet. No, sir. Most of the conversation was about the 
mail-in ballots. We had had problems with the mail-in ballots 
in 2020, getting them counted. They purchased $140,000 machine. 
Most of the attention seemed to be on getting the mail-in 
ballots right because they are a relatively new thing.
    Mr. D'Esposito. it was sort of look here and forget the man 
behind the curtain type of thing. Okay.
    I mean, what I do not understand is, during all the 
conversation--and you may not have the answers either because 
it seems like they are not answering the questions that are 
needed, but is there now any contingency plan? Is there any 
preparation?
    I know these questions have been asked, but is there 
feeling from anyone that they are preparing to improve this in 
the future, or is this more of just shrug your shoulder and 
move on?
    Mr. Bognet. We do not know because when we are asked, they 
say, We cannot talk about it because it is under investigation 
by the DA.
    Then, you know, what I remember from the Board of Election 
hearing is, there was public comment, which was great. Then 
when the public would turn to the Election Bureau head and say 
what happened? Who was supposed to order the paper? We cannot 
talk about that, this is only here for public comment, we 
cannot answer any questions.
    Mr. D'Esposito. I think anyone that is familiar with the 
election process and day of voting knows the people and the 
individuals that work those polling places play a critical 
role, and, you know, they could make the difference between 
chaos and organization.
    Do we feel that in this specific situation, the poll 
watchers and those that were working the elections were 
prepared and had the resources that they needed to do the job 
effectively?
    Mr. Bognet. Unequivocally no and it would be great if you 
hold another hearing or if you come up and hold a field hearing 
to ask the judge of elections. They could not get a hold of the 
elections office in the main. They reported calling and getting 
sent to voicemail.
    These poor people that are volunteering to run the election 
were not getting any answers. They did their best. Some of them 
made photocopies, some of them said, write on a piece of paper, 
but there were no procedures how do we handle this.
    Mr. D'Esposito. Right. They did their best to adapt and 
overcome but did not really have guidance. Okay.
    Obviously we need more poll worker training in the future 
for--you know, I would assume that is across the Nation and not 
just in this specific. Well, thank you.
    Mr. Chairman, I yield back.
    Chairman Steil. The gentleman yields back.
    For purposes of clarification to our colleagues, I invited 
both Members from the House of Representatives who represents 
portions of Luzerne County. Mr. Meuser was able to join us 
today, and so Mr. Meuser is waived onto the Committee and is 
recognized for the purpose of asking questions.
    Mr. Morelle. May I just before--I just want to welcome him 
to our side of the aisle. We hope you are comfortable and might 
even hope to stay on this side. Welcome, sir.
    Chairman Steil. The chair will note that there are no more 
seats on our side of the aisle, so Mr. Meuser is recognized for 
5 minutes. Thank you for being here, Mr. Meuser.
    Mr. Meuser. Well, I appreciate that, Mr. Chairman, and I 
appreciate my colleagues welcoming very, very much, thanks, 
thank you.
    As has been noted, November 8, 2022, people showed up in 
Luzerne County to vote and were met by election officials 
telling them the polling location had run out of ballots. This 
was not at one polling location. It was at 48 out of 143, over 
one-third. One out of every three polling stations had this 
significant problem.
    The purpose of this hearing is, to the best of our ability, 
find out what went wrong, what steps have been taken or still 
need to be taken to ensure this does not happen again.
    Finally, what can be done to instill trust once again in 
Pennsylvania voters and restore the faith in this election 
process. This is why we are here today.
    We are also here because, to the best of my knowledge, and 
it seems the witnesses', we received no account of how this 
occurred from those responsible, nor have we received any plan 
for what is being done to correct and provide some assurances 
to the general public that this will not happen again.
    We have a primary election in Pennsylvania coming up on May 
16th, in less than 60 days from now, and we have no answers or 
no further confidence being built by those who have created 
these problems.
    Now, if this had been done, if responsibility had been 
taken and a plan for how this would not occur again were 
presented, we very likely would not be here today.
    Here is what we know so far that is factual. I personally 
received calls as early as 7:30 a.m. on November 8th. 
Throughout the rest--stating that a polling location had run 
out of ballots. Throughout the rest of the morning, my phone 
blew up.
    As you can see by the poster behind me, of the magnitude of 
the disorganization that was taking place of all of the voting 
locations that ran out of ballots. People were doing everything 
they possibly could to get some sort of paper into people's 
hands so they could do provisionals or just vote in any way 
possible.
    This was at noon.
    We also know that there had been advisories sent earlier, 
in weeks prior, of the potential supply chain issues 
specifically relating to ballot paper. Clearly in Luzerne 
County, these issuances and advisories were completely and 
utterly ignored.
    We know that there was mass confusion at polling stations, 
at polling locations, despite election officials' best efforts 
to remedy the situation on the spot.
    We have also heard reports of security issues, that amid 
the chaos and confusion, there were ballot--makeshift ballots 
cast. I have even heard from someone that I trust very much 
that a stack of makeshift ballots were placed on and left 
unattended on a chair to be counted later. I suppose to be 
counted later.
    This is what went on on Election Day in Luzerne County, 
November 8.
    To start off, Mr. Palmer, Pennsylvania has a statute on the 
books, title 25, section 2967, that states the county board of 
each county shall provide for each election district a supply 
of official election ballots--and this goes on to spell out in 
subsection 8--any general election in an amount equal to at 
least 100 percent of the total number of registered electors--
makes sense--less the number of registered electives and the 
election issue have requested an absentee or mail-in ballot.
    I ask unanimous consent to enter this statute into the 
record, Mr. Chairman.
    Chairman Steil. Without objection.
    [The statute referred to follows:]
    [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT] 


    Mr. Meuser. Thank you.
    Mr. Palmer, do you think Luzerne County fulfilled its 
obligation under the law?
    Mr. Palmer. Well, again, I am not sure what the exact legal 
requirements are, but they should have prepared and ordered 
more ballots for Election Day ballot stock to prepare for that, 
or they should have had backup plans with ballot on demand or 
some other option for a plan B if they were to run out of 
ballot stock. Yes.
    Mr. Meuser. Okay. A paper shortage?
    Mr. Palmer. Yes.
    Mr. Meuser. How could something like this have happened?
    Mr. Palmer. The election administrator either did not order 
or ordered not enough ballot stock. They did not anticipate the 
turnout that would be on Election Day, and----
    Mr. Meuser. Turnout? 7:30 a.m.?
    Mr. Palmer. Well, it could be, you know, actually, I was 
listening to some of the testimony that was from a witness 
here. It could have been the lack of ballot stock, but also, 
inappropriate ballot stock. If they ordered ballot stock that--
--
    Mr. Meuser. Thank you. I got to reclaim my time. My 
apologies.
    Mr. Bognet, have you heard or any publisher or outreach 
made to the citizens to increase confidence or explain to the 
citizens what took place, why it took place, and what is being 
done to correct it?
    Mr. Bognet. There has been absolutely no communication from 
our officials in Luzerne County to explain what happened, to 
tell us the procedures they are going to do to make sure it 
does not happen again, to apologize for the citizens who were 
disenfranchised, and to get people to believe in our elections 
again. We have not heard one word.
    Mr. Meuser. Chairman, I yield back.
    Chairman Steil. The gentleman yields back.
    Ms. Lee is now recognized for 5 minutes.
    Ms. Lee. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    As the former secretary of state of Florida, I know well 
how important preparation and planning are to the 
administration of elections. In order for Americans to have 
confidence in their elections, voters need to have equal access 
to voting.
    This includes polling stations having the necessary 
equipment and resources to allow all voters' voices to be 
heard. Luzerne County, as we have heard today, is an example of 
a failure to provide such access.
    Mr. Chairman, I ask unanimous consent to enter into the 
record a brief statement from Bernadette Hivish, a Luzerne 
County voter who had difficulty voting last November.
    Mr. Carey [Presiding.] Without objection.
    [The Bernadette Hivish statement referred to follows:]

    [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT] 

    

    Ms. Lee. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    I am going to read an excerpt from this statement. Quote, I 
arrived at the polling location at 6:45 p.m. I was the first 
person from the Mayflower section of Wilkes-Barre to sign in. 
After doing this, the poll workers were then told not to sign 
anyone in because the machines were not working correctly.
    It was going on for approximately 7:40 a.m., and I had to 
get back to work when I asked for a provisional ballot. I was 
not happy doing it this way, but because I was already signed 
in, I could not leave and come back.
    I went back to the polling location around 7:30 to see if I 
could have, A, my provisional ballot pulled and vote by 
machine. I knew it was a long shot but was not confident my 
vote would be counted.
    Commissioner Palmer, I would like to address my questions 
to you, but first, is not it true that the EAC issued warnings 
to local election officials that there might be paper shortages 
in 2022?
    Mr. Palmer. Yes, ma'am. There was a number of months prior 
to the election, including back into the primary, that there 
were shortages in paper stock.
    Ms. Lee. Isn't it also correct that the EAC advised 
jurisdictions that they should be taking steps to ensure that 
they have the necessary supply of paper to be prepared for the 
2022 election?
    Mr. Palmer. In conjunction with our partners, we issued 
those warnings that they needed to prepare as early as 
possible. In fact, there were deadlines, that, look, if you are 
ordering past this day, you are not ensured to have adequate 
paper.
    Ms. Lee. For those jurisdictions that did follow the 
warnings and the advice that was issued by the EAC about 
ensuring that that supply was in place sufficiently in advance 
of the 2022 election, they were successful, were they not?
    Mr. Palmer. No, they were, yes.
    Ms. Lee. Commissioner Palmer, are you familiar with voting 
systems testing and certification?
    Mr. Palmer. Yes, ma'am.
    Ms. Lee. Are you also familiar with standards and best 
practices that are used to maintain election integrity and 
security during the voting process?
    Mr. Palmer. Yes. Yes, I am.
    Ms. Lee. In your opinion, is it appropriate for an election 
administrator at a precinct to be using standard paper for the 
purpose of tabulating ballots?
    Mr. Palmer. No. That is a security feature. That ensures 
that every ballot is being cast on ballot stock, a Marksense 
ballot and not just a piece of paper. It is a security feature. 
Once you dismiss that, you are opening it up to other issues, 
and that is why it is not a best practice.
    Ms. Lee. Is the EAC willing--or has the EAC provided 
guidance to State and local election officials about the types 
of stock, or the types of stock that can be used with certain 
voting systems?
    Mr. Palmer. Yes. When a voting system comes into an 
accredited lab for testing, the manufacturer provides that data 
on what the length, the thickness of the different types of 
ballots or paper stock that would be used. It is tested to 
those. It is not tested to paper or other configurations.
    Once it is--once it is certified to that, the manufacturer 
and the user has an understanding of what ballot stock could be 
used with that voting equipment.
    Again, it is a very regimented process. Once you are 
outside that using regular pieces of paper, that is really--you 
know, you are breaking down one of the security features of the 
process.
    Ms. Lee. Is that certification process an important part of 
ensuring the security of elections?
    Mr. Palmer. I think so, because what it shows is that we 
are testing these systems for different manufacturers over and 
over with upgrades, and it shows that the system will work 
under--under different circumstances.
    We will certify that at the Federal level, and in fact, 
many States also have a certification process to ensure that 
the ballots that are used in your county or our State will work 
on those voting machines.
    Ms. Lee. Would you share with us how the EAC can be 
involved with helping States identify and implement best 
practices when it comes to this testing and certification?
    Mr. Palmer. Well, we have a clearinghouse where we offer 
best practices to States on issues such as this. We have 
subject matter experts in elections and in testing and 
certifications. These are technical experts. We hope to, you 
know, provide assistance to the States and localities when they 
need it on these types of issues.
    Ms. Lee. Thank you, Commissioner Palmer.
    Mr. Chairman, I yield back.
    Mr. Carey. Thank you. Before we thank the witnesses, before 
we move on to our second panel of witnesses today, we are going 
to play recorded testimony from a number of additional 
individuals.
    For Members, this recorded testimony will be played on the 
monitor that are in the room, and for the public, it will be 
carried on live stream.
    The first person is Mr. Eugene Dougherty. He is a resident 
of Luzerne County with a medical condition that limits his 
mobility. He and his wife's polls were closed due to paper 
problems, but they have 2 extra hours to vote due to a court-
ordered extension.
    When he and his wife showed up, the precinct was still 
closed. This resulted in him and his wife being denied the 
right to vote. Let us watch.
    Let us watch.
    [Video shown.]
    [The Eugene Dougherty transcript referred to follows:]
    [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT] 

    

    Mr. Carey. The next video is Kim Buerger, who is a resident 
of Luzerne County and tells her story of voting on a copy of 
provisional ballot because her precinct ran out of ballot 
paper.
    While more ballots were promised to arrive at the precinct 
and Kim waited for standard ballots to arrive, they never 
showed up.
    Finally, when she later checked to see if her vote counted, 
she found out that despite all that she had been through, it 
did not. Let us play the clip.
    [Video shown.]
    [The Kim Buerger transcript referred to follows:]
    [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] T4467.125
    

    Mr. Carey. Bill Dwyer was an election constable in 
Larksville where----
    Mr. Morelle. May I make--Mr. Chairman, may I make a 
parliamentary inquiry? I noticed it says ``testimony.'' Are 
these videos, are the people under oath while they are--this 
says testimony.
    Mr. Carey. To the ranker, they are not under oath and they 
are not required to be.
    Mr. Morelle. They are not testifying----
    Mr. Carey. Just like written testimony is not sworn in.
    Mr. Morelle. Not sworn testimony. I might just as part of 
my inquiry, first of all, the stories are powerful. I would 
love to have had the opportunity to ask them about their 
experience since clearly what happened in Luzerne County is 
catastrophic.
    We could have done these, people could have been remote. We 
could have then engaged in a back-and-forth and allowed them to 
answer our questions about their experience. That was 
apparently decided against.
    Rather than giving the Members of Congress a chance to ask 
questions about their experience, they have been submitted--
they are submitting now not as witnesses, and not under oath, 
but simply videos. That is how we will proceed?
    Mr. Carey. Does the gentleman have a parliamentary inquiry?
    Mr. Morelle. That is my inquiry. Are we going to do this in 
the future where we are going to take videos not under oath as 
part of----
    Mr. Carey. That is not a parliamentary inquiry.
    Mr. Morelle. It is not? It is a question. It is an inquiry. 
Is this going to be the Committee's procedure now on a going-
forward basis?
    Mr. Carey. Again, it is not a parliamentary inquiry, so I 
am going to go ahead and play the video.
    Mr. Morelle. It is a procedural inquiry. I just----
    Mr. Carey. Let us move on.
    Brian Dwyer was an election constable in Larksville, Ward 
2. He testified at the Luzerne County Board of Elections 
meeting on November 14th. He watched firsthand as voters were 
turned away from the polls, and many did not return because of 
the ballot paper shortage.
    If we could just watch.
    [Video shown.]
    [The Brian Dwyer transcript referred to follows:]

    [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT] 

    

    Mr. Carey. Alyssa Fusaro, a member of the Luzerne County 
Board of Elections, expresses outrage at a public hearing of 
the board in response to Mr. Dwyer's testimony about turning 
voters away from the polls.
    Let us roll the clip, please.
    Mr. Morelle. I just have an inquiry about what we are doing 
now.
    Mr. Carey. We are just trying to get it to work.
    [Video shown.]
    [The Alyssa Fusaro transcript referred to follows:]

    [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT] 


    Mr. Carey. Move on to David Stadler, who is a voter from 
Hunlock Township. He also testified at the Luzerne County Board 
of Election meeting on November 14th. His polling location ran 
out of paper at approximately 10 a.m. Here is the clip.
    [Video shown.]
    [The David Stadler transcript referred to follows:]

    [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT] 


    Mr. Loudermilk [Presiding.] Pursuant to paragraph B of 
Committee rule 6, we are now ready to move on to the second 
panel. I am sorry.
    Pursuant to paragraph B, Committee rule 6, all witnesses 
will please stand and raise your right hand.
    [Witnesses sworn.]
    Mr. Loudermilk. Thank you, you may be seated. Let the 
record show the witnesses have answered in the affirmative.
    I will now introduce our second witness panel. Our first 
witness, Mr. Theodore Fitzgerald, currently works in management 
and trainer capacity at ABC Bail Bonds, and invests much of his 
time mentoring and helping ex-convicts reestablish themselves 
in the community.
    Our next witness, Mr. Benjamin Herring, is the vice 
president of the Citizens Advisory of Pennsylvania, a nonprofit 
that advocates for the constitutional rights, educational 
choices, and happiness of northeastern Pennsylvania 
communities.
    Mr. Herring is a Marine Corps veteran, deploying twice in 
support of Operation Iraqi Freedom and Operation Enduring 
Freedom, and began his nonprofit service in 2021 when he 
realized the enormous lack of oversight within the public 
school system.
    Finally, Mr. James Walsh serves as president of the 
Citizens Advisory of Pennsylvania and owns a small business, 
The Homeboys Seamless Gutters, where he has helped homeowners 
with water management issues over 2 years.
    We appreciate our witnesses being here today and look 
forward to your testimony. As a reminder, we have read your 
written statement, and it will appear in full in the hearing 
record.
    Under Committee rule 9, you are to limit your oral 
presentation to a brief summary of your written statement 
unless I extend this time period in consultation with Ranking 
Member Morelle.
    Please remember to press the button on the microphone in 
front of you so that it is on and the Members can hear you. 
When you begin to speak, the light in front of you will turn 
green. After 4 minutes, it will turn yellow, and when the red 
light comes on, your 5 minutes has expired, and we ask at that 
point that you please wrap up and conclude your remarks.
    I now recognize Mr. Fitzgerald for 5 minutes.

 STATEMENTS OF MR. THEODORE FITZGERALD, CITIZEN; MR. BENJAMIN 
         HERRING, CITIZEN; AND MR. JAMES WALSH, CITIZEN

                STATEMENT OF THEODORE FITZGERALD

    Mr. Fitzgerald. I am not as articulate as the rest of the 
people before me. I am just a regular Joe worker, and I am here 
just because I want to help not just clear up what happened, 
but also try to come up with some solutions in the future so I 
never see you guys again.
    Okay. I am just going to go with what I wrote. I am a 
diabetic who lost two toes last year in 2022 and one previous 
the year before. On November 4, my home health nurse was 
treating an open wound where my right toe had been because of a 
recent amputation. She noticed that the toe next to it got 
infected and called my podiatrist. She told me to admit myself 
into the emergency room as soon as possible.
    On the way to the emergency room, I stopped at Luzerne 
County Election Bureau to cast an absentee vote. I was supposed 
to show up at the polls. I did not know how long I was going to 
be in the hospital, and since I believe voting is one of the 
most important things an American citizen can do, I wanted to 
make sure my voice was heard.
    When I got to the Bureau of Elections, I explained what was 
going on and asked to submit an emergency ballot. I was given 
one and filled it out immediately.
    After filling it out, the person put it in a manila 
security envelope, sealed it in front of me, and I asked if 
there was anything else I needed to do. She answered no, and 
then she proceeded to take the ballot to the back, and I left 
for the hospital.
    I went to the hospital and was admitted. I stayed until 
Monday when they amputated my toe and was released the same 
day.
    On November 8, not feeling confident nor trusting the 
Luzerne County Bureau of Elections because of their past 
history nor their staffing, I went to my polling place to 
confirm my vote was submitted and counted. I also believe that 
they do not hire the best person for the job at the bureau, but 
they hire their friends and/or people with the same party 
affiliations and party agenda. I also believe that I have proof 
that this occurs.
    After the last recent hiring, I filed the right-to-know for 
the applications that apply for the position of deputy director 
of elections. I wanted to see if Luzerne County hired the best 
applicant for the job.
    Luzerne County denied my request, so I appealed to the 
State. I won the applications that shows the best person--I 
believe it shows the best person was passed over for a 
connected elected official.
    Back to November 8. When I got to my polling place, I 
explained I voted on the 4th and asked if they could check to 
see if my vote was counted. They checked, and they said that it 
was not, and they could not even find me on the voter list.
    Then they called the Bureau of Elections by cell phone to 
see what they should do. The Bureau said I was inactive and 
could not vote. I said: That is impossible. I voted in the last 
election here at this precinct. That actually, you guys 
questioned my signature. I normally write a doctor signature, 
but this time, I had to write the full signature.
    They stayed on the phone and reiterated what I said. I then 
overheard the woman from the bureau call up to another asking 
about me. She then said over the phone that they had me at two 
different addresses and found me. They said they had no record 
of me voting on that previous Friday, so to do a provisional.
    I questioned that. I said: Isn't that illegal? I am not 
supposed to vote or cannot vote twice. They assured me at that 
time I would not get in trouble and they would find out if I 
voted twice because only one of the votes would count. I filled 
out the provisional, and I left for that day.
    Basically, I am here just to give that testimony. I think 
that is why, excuse my language, it is a shit show at Luzerne 
County Bureau. It is because they do not hire, they do not 
recruit right, they do not train right, and they have no 
management skills. They have people with good intentions, but 
they just do not have great leadership.
    I also have addressed the council--which is, again, 10 to 1 
Republican to Democrat--to see if they could announce and just 
apologize to the public. Not an apology of guilt, but just of 
empathy.
    I also went to the county manager, asked the same. I went 
to the department head, asked the same. I also went to the 
Bureau of Elections and asked the same.
    All we want is an apology. We want the affirmation that 
elections moving forward will be held responsible and our vote 
counts. I think they should announce that on the newspaper, let 
people know that if you were disenfranchised, come back, vote. 
We want everybody's vote to be heard.
    I know that Mr. Morelle said that, but it is a 10-1 
council. In the Bureau of Elections, it is the opposite. There 
is only one Republican, and everybody at the Bureau of 
Elections is all Democrat.
    The people that made the mistake and had the power was not 
the council. They have no purview. The people at the board are 
the responsible people.
    Also, the board is a 3-2 Democrat and they are more 
concerned, in all the meetings. Before that, they were more 
interested in drop boxes than making sure there were policies, 
procedures, and inventory. I have an inventory on my things. 
God, you walk into a closet. If you see there is no paper, 
order the damn paper. I mean, a moron could do that.
    Basically I think there is just horrible management, 
horrible training, horrible recruitment. if you want to change 
the elections in Luzerne County, you need to fix that.
    Thank you.
    [The prepared statement of Mr. Fitzgerald follows:]

           PREPARED STATEMENT OF THEODORE FITZGERALD
[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT] 


    Mr. Loudermilk. Thank you, Mr. Fitzgerald.
    I now recognize Mr. Herring for 5 minutes.

                 STATEMENT OF BENJAMIN HERRING

    Mr. Herring. Good morning, Chairman Loudermilk now, Ranking 
Member Morelle, and the remaining Members of the Committee on 
House Administration.
    My name is Ben Herring, and I am here before this Committee 
today to talk about one of the most crucial and fundamental 
rights all Americans have, which is the ability to vote.
    I was raised by military parents, grew up on military bases 
all across the globe, and decided in 2003 to take the sacred 
oath myself by joining the United States Marine Corps.
    As a Marine Corps veteran, I served in Fallujah, Iraq, in 
2004 during Operation Phantom Fury, as well as in the Korengal 
Valley of Afghanistan in 2006.
    I joined the Marine Corps after 9/11, and my time spent 
alongside my brothers and sisters in arms will forever be a 
part of my foundation, and it is part of the reason I am here 
today.
    Why this is germane to my service in some way is, in 2005, 
I was in Iraq for the very first Iraqi elections. I got to see 
the face and the joy and the hope on Iraqi citizens' faces when 
they knew that there was a change coming and they could 
actually elect their own officials and actually try and carve 
the way for the future of their country versus the previous 
dictatorship rule.
    To see that, and to correspond that with America, I mean, 
we should never be behind 2005 Iraq when it comes to actual 
elections and election integrity and ensuring everybody has the 
right to vote.
    The issues that occurred in Luzerne County for the 2022 
midterm elections represent a culture which embodies exactly 
what is permeating, in my opinion, throughout our entire 
Nation: a complete lack of respect and understanding of what it 
really is to be a public servant and the correlation of public 
service to transparency and accountability, words that I have 
heard here this morning.
    In the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania, we have a law known as 
the Sunshine Act, which like many States was enacted directly 
following the Watergate scandal, and it was used so that 
citizens could have a look into governmental affairs. When 
taxpayer funds are used and when decisions are made using those 
taxpayer funds, the public deserves a right to know what is 
happening.
    Due to the Sunshine Act, and due to just being a citizen 
who has a familiarity with it, after this whole situation 
transpired--and I went to the Election Board meeting on 
November 14 that is also been talked about this morning--I 
asked questions directly to the officials that you have heard. 
The Board of Elections, the chair of the Board of Elections, 
the acting director of Luzerne County elections and the 
Election Bureau was also there. The officials that needed to 
answer those questions were in that room.
    Now, while the Sunshine Act--and I have this in my 
testimony--it does not require, the actual law, like, the legal 
language, the statute, does not require that you answer 
questions. I know this is a totally separate topic. When you go 
to a public meeting and you have questions such as what 
transpired that you all heard this morning, I believe it should 
be prudent that somebody at least give some type of an answer. 
Simply saying that they do not have to answer the question or 
ignoring the questions from the public is not acceptable.
    She did not answer to us during that meeting. I say 
``she,'' so I am talking the Election Board. The chair of the 
Election Board or any of the officials that you all invited 
down here, they have not answered us as citizens. They did not 
come down here as witnesses today, as is well-documented.
    My question is: Who do they respond to? Who are they 
accountable to? Because we are here today to express our 
frustration, and you have also heard other frustration. I think 
the underlying question is: If they do not answer to us as 
citizens, as per our Luzerne County charter, then who do they 
answer to? I am really glad that Congress is having some 
oversight on this topic because it is very important.
    I would like to draw attention quickly to one particular 
submission which surrounds what is known as Papergate in 
Luzerne County. I requested through my right-to-know process to 
receive a copy of all procurements conducted by Luzerne County 
that were applicable to supporting the 2022 midterm elections.
    The results I received from the county confirmed my 
concerns. They did not purchase the paper for the elections. 
They have a binding contract with Dominion Voting Systems, as 
you have seen also across the Nation, but Luzerne County 
officials were responsible for ordering the paper. Nobody in an 
elected capacity has testified to that, but I am here today to 
tell you that I did find that, and that is the truth.
    A voter simply cannot enter their ballot into a tabulator 
if there is no paper to print the ballot onto. In what 
conceivable world is this allowed to happen?
    Well, I have a lot of documentation. I will provide that, 
obviously, to this Committee, enter into the record.
    I want to point out two quick things. Luzerne County 
reported 117,495 ballots cast by voters for the 2022 midterm 
elections. On election day--and I have the receipts as part of 
my right-to-know request--76,000 sheets of paper were purchased 
either by the county or by citizens in order to get the 
precincts back up and running. That is 65 percent of the voting 
population for the entire county.
    I heard earlier today maybe there was a lack of 
institutional knowledge. I am sorry, but 65 percent of possible 
ballots needing to be ordered on election day is not a lack of 
institutional knowledge. Something occurred here. It was either 
willful or was a gross mistake. Either way, we have no 
transparency and we have no accountability.
    Thank you, Mr. Chair.
    [The prepared statement of Mr. Herring follows:]

             PREPARED STATEMENT OF BENJAMIN HERRING
[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT] 



    Mr. Loudermilk. Thank you, Mr. Herring, and thank you for 
your service to our country.
    The chair recognizes Mr. James Walsh for 5 minutes.
    Mr. Walsh. Chairman Loudermilk, may I state an objection 
prior to starting my statement here to this Committee?
    Mr. Loudermilk. You may.
    Mr. Walsh. When this hearing started, there were 10 Members 
here. We do not even have a quorum now. There are three Members 
of this Committee sitting here listening to the citizens' 
statements. You do not even have a quorum right now to discuss 
this.
    Now, I spent money out of my own pocket. I bought a new 
suit to be here in front of you. I stayed at a hotel last 
night. I spent gas money to come down here, time away from my 
business and my family, here to talk about these 30 affidavits 
from concerned citizens in Luzerne County. I think the lack of 
a quorum here is an absolute disgrace by this Committee.
    Mr. Loudermilk. We appreciate you being here. As you may 
well realize, we have a number of hearings that are going on 
simultaneously, and we have a number of Members from both 
parties that serve on multiple Committees.
    We, in fact, do have a quorum on this Committee at this 
point and we appreciate your concerns. Duly noted. You may 
proceed with your statement.

                    STATEMENT OF JAMES WALSH

    Mr. Walsh. Thank you.
    Chairman Loudermilk, Ranking Member Morelle, and 
distinguished Members of this Committee that is left here, 
thank you for having me here today.
    My name is James Walsh, and I am grateful to have this 
opportunity to share testimony with you from some of the 
concerned registered voters of Luzerne County, Pennsylvania.
    Within Pennsylvania Constitution article VII, subsection 4, 
it states the following: ``All elections by citizens shall be 
by ballot or by such other method as prescribed by law, 
provided that secrecy in voting is preserved.''
    Article VII, Subsection 6 states that: ``All laws 
regulating the holding of elections by the citizens, or the 
registration of electors, shall be uniform throughout the 
State.''
    The 2022 general election in Luzerne County was conducted 
in violation of Article VII, Subsections 4 and 6 of the 
Pennsylvania State Constitution. The violations that took place 
were a direct result from the lack of paper in Luzerne County 
in order to print ballots at the polling stations, which in 
turn resulted in voter suppression county-wide.
    I have obtained affidavits from 30 registered voters within 
the county representing 7 out of 186 precincts that I would 
like to submit today as part of the record. I am not really 
sure how that works, but I would like to submit these as part 
of the record today.
    Mr. Loudermilk. Without objection, it is submitted.
    [The affidavits referred to follow:]
    [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT] 

    
    
    
    
    [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT] 

    
    Mr. Walsh. Thank you.
    Affidavits are both from election day poll workers and 
registered voters.
    For myself, the beginning of the chaos throughout Luzerne 
County began when I showed up at my polling location in Ross 
Township. Our judge of elections explained that she was sent 
500 sheets of paper for 1,100-plus voters. She also stated that 
the Election Bureau did not fill the printers prior to them 
being delivered. The Bureau did not send her electrical cords 
or power strips to power up the machines. The Bureau only sent 
her one scanner and one red privacy bag, where in years past, 
she would receive three to four.
    They did send six voting machines; however, one of the 
machines had to be rebooted three times before it would 
operate. She also stated that they only sent her one paper poll 
book, and that in years past, they would have two poll books 
separated by last name A through L and M to Z.
    The combination of these issues created extensive voting 
lines and up to a 35-minute wait for people to vote.
    When I left my polling location, I did not know that some 
of the same issues were happening county-wide. I turned on our 
local radio station, and I started to hear reports from across 
the county that polls did not have enough paper for voters to 
cast their ballots.
    Other poll workers, in the affidavits that I submitted to 
you today, reported that when they ran out of paper they tried 
to call the Election Bureau and they could not get through.
    There are also reports of voters leaving the polling 
locations without voting at all and no idea if they came back 
to their place once the polling place received paper.
    Within the affidavits from the voters, you will find that 
voters were using photocopies. Some reports from the Election 
Bureau stated that there was a special paper that needed to be 
used in the scanners. Regular paper that you might have lying 
around your house would not be acceptable to use. This is where 
the lack of uniformity ensued.
    Voters used photocopied ballots with no way to track if 
their ballot was counted. When using photocopied ballots, they 
were told to sit at tables to fill them out without any privacy 
or secrecy.
    Voters were told at different locations to handle their 
finished ballots differently by placing them into a box, drop 
them in the back of a printer, place them into a metal can or a 
container. One polling place told people to print their ballot 
and place it in the back of the broken scanner box. At another 
location, the ballot box was so full that the poll workers were 
unlocking it to shove more ballots in to fit more.
    Another affidavit states that they voted on the computer 
and printed the ballot, but they were told to put it into a 
drop box instead of scanning it. Yet, at another polling place, 
voters were told to print their ballots and hand them directly 
to a poll worker. Voters reported in the affidavits that they 
saw people were leaving the long lines, and they did not know 
if they ever came back.
    As you can clearly see from these affidavits submitted to 
you as record, this election was not secret or uniform. The 
delays at the polling locations due to the lack of paper 
created long lines, which in turn suppressed the voters.
    In closing, I gave you a sample from only 7 out of 186 
voting precincts. Our Election Bureau manager, Beth McBride, 
reported to the media that the paper shortage took place at a 
total of 48 polling precincts throughout the county. While 
investigating this, I found out that all 48 precincts that ran 
out of paper traditionally vote, at a minimum, two to one 
Republican.
    Thank you for your time.
    [The prepared statement of Mr. Walsh follows:]

               PREPARED STATEMENT OF JAMES WALSH
[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT] 

    Mr. Loudermilk. Thank you, Mr. Walsh.
    I will begin our questions today, followed by Ranking 
Member Morelle. Then we will alternate between parties.
    I now recognize myself for the purpose of questioning our 
witnesses.
    Mr. Walsh, I will start with you. Let me say that, prior to 
coming to Congress, I was asked to come and testify as well. I 
was before one of the larger Committees in the House. When I 
went and sat down with the other panel members, there were more 
on the panel than there were in the audience. I know exactly 
how you feel.
    One thing I learned in that is, as we went along, most of 
the Members did come in and were able to ask questions. Your 
written testimony is reviewed by Members, and I believe you 
will have at least most of the Members on both sides back to 
ask questions today.
    I will start. Did you ever encounter a problem casting a 
ballot at your precinct prior to the November 2022 general 
election?
    Mr. Walsh. No, sir.
    Mr. Loudermilk. None at all?
    Mr. Walsh. I did not experience a problem this time. I was 
just alerted to the problem because I was there first thing in 
the morning.
    Mr. Loudermilk. Okay. Well, thank you.
    A follow up question is, the bureau, is it responsible for 
the paper ballot shortage? If not, who is?
    Mr. Walsh. Well, according to--I think Mr. Herring would be 
better off to answer that question because he is the one that 
filed the right-to-know for the order of the paper.
    Mr. Loudermilk. Okay.
    Mr. Herring, do you care to answer?
    Mr. Herring. Yes, Congressman. It is the Election Bureau. 
It is the hired personnel of Luzerne County that were to order 
the paper.
    Mr. Loudermilk. Okay. It is the Election Bureau that is 
responsible?
    Mr. Herring. Yes, sir.
    Mr. Loudermilk. Alright. Thank you.
    I will stay, since I got you already, Mr. Herring.
    Are you aware of other voting precincts running out of 
paper on election day?
    Mr. Herring. Yes, Congressman. As my colleague Mr. Walsh 
stated, there are 48 precincts that we--just as regular, 
everyday guys, like T.J. said--just looked into to try and help 
out because we were getting a lot of people contacting us.
    Those 48 Committees, as Mr. Walsh alluded to, 
traditionally, at least two to one is more Republican voters 
than Democrat voters. In some of those precincts that ran out 
of paper, the margin is as high as nine to one Republican and 
Democrat.
    Mr. Loudermilk. Are these precincts all in the same county?
    Mr. Herring. Yes, sir. They are all in the same county.
    Mr. Loudermilk. Alright.
    Are you satisfied with the bureau's response to the 
incident?
    Mr. Herring. No, Congressman, not at all. There has been no 
response, as has been well-documented today. As I point out to, 
again, the Sunshine Act in Pennsylvania does not preclude you 
from answering a question when a public brings it to you during 
a public meeting.
    That is what is disheartening to us as citizens, is we are 
answering simple questions during these public meetings, and 
they flat out refuse to answer them. There is no law that says 
you cannot answer. This was before it got referred to the 
district attorney, sir. This is before all that happened.
    Mr. Loudermilk. Alright. Well, thank you. I appreciate 
that.
    At this point, I will yield back and recognize Ranking 
Member Morelle for questions.
    Mr. Morelle. Thank you so much, Mr. Chair.
    First of all, Mr. Fitzgerald, as one regular Joe to 
another----
    Mr. Fitzgerald. Yes, sir.
    Mr. Morelle [continuing]. I am very sorry for what happened 
to you. I think it is completely inexcusable.
    Mr. Fitzgerald. It is no big deal. We can move on and make 
it better tomorrow.
    Mr. Morelle. You said the Election Bureau is responsible 
for ordering paper. Is that correct?
    Mr. Fitzgerald. I think they are directly responsible, like 
in any business, like if you have people that work in a 
business and also supervisors.
    Mr. Morelle. Yes.
    Mr. Fitzgerald. I think everybody is responsible. I think 
that----
    Mr. Morelle. In terms of the technical thing, I think you 
said that the Election Bureau does that.
    Mr. Fitzgerald. I think bottom line, yes, sir.
    Mr. Morelle. Yes.
    Mr. Herring you just testified to the same, that the 
Election Bureau is responsible for the ordering of paper?
    Mr. Herring. Yes, Congressman. There is a clause in the 
Dominion contract that specifically spells out that they will 
not provide consumables to the county.
    Mr. Morelle. Yes. Are either of you aware that the county 
manager has the power to fire, terminate, and manage all 
administrative staff, including the director of the Bureau of 
Elections?
    Mr. Herring. Absolutely. He does. Yes.
    Mr. Morelle. It is important to note that the division head 
of administrative services who reports to the county manager is 
the person who directly oversees the Elections Bureau as well 
as the other seven county divisions?
    Mr. Herring. Correct.
    Mr. Morelle. It is the Elections Bureau reports to the 
County Council, and the county manager is the administrator who 
runs the Election Bureau?
    Mr. Herring. The County Council does appoint the Luzerne 
County manager, yes.
    Mr. Morelle. It is actually--that Bureau is underneath the 
county manager.
    Mr. Herring. Correct.
    Mr. Morelle. I understand that the county manager resigned 
just a couple of days after election?
    Mr. Herring. That is correct.
    Mr. Morelle. I know citing family obligations. Obviously, 
he has come under a great deal of questions about his role in 
this, but the Election Bureau, just to be clear, the Election 
Bureau works for the county manager?
    Mr. Herring. That is a correct statement.
    Mr. Morelle. Mr. Fitzgerald, did you ever know if your vote 
got recorded, sir?
    Mr. Fitzgerald. Yes, I did. I actually found out yesterday.
    Mr. Morelle. It did get recorded, sir?
    Mr. Fitzgerald. Yes, it did.
    Mr. Morelle. Very good. Thank you.
    I do want to say, Mr. Walsh--and I certainly agree with the 
chair that the Members, I am sure, do not mean disrespect, that 
they have many things to do.
    I would say also that I would be happy to work with the 
chair for the witnesses to be reimbursed under our Committee 
rules for your expenses coming to and from Washington. I would 
be happy to be supportive of that. I am happy to raise that 
with the chair about making sure that, to the greatest degree 
possible, we compensate you for that.
    Did you also note, Mr. Walsh, that the bureau works for the 
county administration through the county manager?
    Mr. Walsh. Yes.
    Mr. Morelle. You did. Okay and just to, again, reflect on 
this, the County Council, which hires the county manager, has 
11 members, 10 of whom are Republicans. I just note that as we 
are looking to what happened with Papergate.
    I also want to just note that one of the concerns I raised 
earlier about having witnesses give testimony not under oath 
and not being able to be cross-examined, I note.
    I would like to have unanimous consent both to enter into 
the record an article that is a Luzerne County report of 
``Election Board Member Fusaro's actions differ from her 
account,'' and a confidential report of investigation by the 
Luzerne County Office of Law, with the assistance of Luzerne 
County Human Resources, about Ms. Fusaro, whose recorded video 
was entered into the record.
    At one point, Ms. Fusaro, in the report--I will read from 
it--``Witness 2 stated that Alyssa Fusaro went to the front 
desk, was on the phone, and heard Alyssa Fusaro say, quote, 
`This spic do not know what the F she is doing.'
    ``Witness 2 said she heard Alyssa Fusaro, quote, `spewing 
the F word, and her facial expression was like she was 
disgusted. That is when I told Witness 1 to shut the F up, and 
then the guy told her to shut the F up.' ''
    I would like to submit, with unanimous consent, the 
confidential report of investigation by the Luzerne County 
Office of Law with the assistance of Luzerne County Human 
Resources.
    I do note, that is one of the reasons we would want 
witnesses to testify in person, so that we can ask questions 
and refer to official reports and considerable differences 
between testimony given--although not under oath and not 
available to be cross-examined--and what they say in that 
testimony, how it differs.
    I would like to enter those into the record, please.
    Mr. Loudermilk. Both without objection.
    [The confidential report referred to follows:]
    [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT] 

    
    
    Mr. Morelle. Thank you, sir.
    Mr. Walsh. Mr. Chairman, I am not sure at the time of that 
report--I am not sure, at the time of that report those two 
witnesses were under oath. I would caution you about putting 
them on the record because there was a certain time that they 
were not put under oath, and I do not know if they were ever 
put under oath and testified.
    Mr. Morelle. Yes, well, I know I am over my time. I am not 
suggesting anything about that other than I would have liked, 
under oath, to question the witness. That was my point.
    Anyway, I yield back, sir.
    Mr. Loudermilk. The gentleman yields back.
    I now recognize Mr. Carey for 5 minutes.
    Mr. Carey. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    I ask unanimous consent to enter into the record a 
statement from Michael Fratangelo, a poll greeter in Luzerne 
County.
    Mr. Loudermilk. Without objection.
    [The Michael Fratangelo statement referred to follows:]

    [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT] 

    

    Mr. Carey. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I will quickly read his 
statement.
    ``I was assigned to the Dallas Township Municipal Garage in 
Dallas District 3 as a poll greeter from 7 a.m. to 8 p.m. on 
election day.
    ``The precinct experienced an issue of running out of paper 
ballots at the voting location in the late afternoon. Several 
voters had mentioned that they were unable to vote since the 
location ran out of ballots as they walked in and out of the 
building.
    ``A sheriff witnessed delivering more paper ballots later 
in the afternoon at a voting location. It is unclear if 
provisional ballots were used and how many individuals were 
unable to vote.
    ``However, other locations in the county, such as Harveys 
Lake, were also affected by running out of paper ballots, 
according to the reports.
    ``Every voter should have the equal and fair opportunity to 
cast their ballots without any issue on election day.''
    End of statement.
    Mr. Loudermilk. Without objection.
    Mr. Carey. To the witnesses--and I know the chair pointed 
this out--we all do serve on multiple Committees, and many of 
us have to run and juggle the time between each Committee.
    I want you to understand, though, that I was talking to 
Committee staff when I was trying to squeeze in a little bit of 
lunch right before I came back out. We actually have, I think, 
274 people that are actually watching this online. Many of the 
Members and their staffs are watching it online while we are 
here because they have got to be in multiple other places.
    I just thought I would put that for the witnesses.
    I guess I will start with Mr. Fitzgerald.
    About how long have you been voting in Luzerne County?
    Mr. Fitzgerald. Me?
    Mr. Carey. Yes.
    Mr. Fitzgerald. Do not quote me on this one, but I would 
say about 5, 6 years. I was previously living in North 
Carolina. previous to that, I was in Pennsylvania. About 5 
years.
    Mr. Carey. Five years?
    Mr. Herring?
    Mr. Herring. Since I returned to the Marine Corps in 2007.
    Mr. Carey. Okay.
    Mr. Walsh?
    Mr. Walsh. Since I was old enough to vote. That would be 30 
years, if I do the math right.
    Mr. Carey. You did not have to give your age, Mr. Walsh.
    Are you confident--and I will start with you, Mr. 
Fitzgerald--are you confident that the problems will be 
resolved in time for the 2024 election? If not, why?
    Mr. Fitzgerald. Do not know. It is like anything in a 
business or in Congress or anything. It is how you address the 
problem, how honest you are about the problems.
    The fighting between parties is stupid. I think what we 
should do is come together and figure out a solution and try to 
make--so it can, 100 percent, be good in Luzerne County. It 
depends on, again, what I said. Who we recruit, who we hire, 
how we train them, and the management. It really comes down to 
that. We work together as Americans. I think we can do better.
    Mr. Carey. Thank you.
    Mr. Herring?
    Mr. Herring. I believe, without a full reconciliation, not 
only at the county level, but there are obviously a lot of 
issues right now with election integrity, I do not think a lot 
of people can say with confidence that they are ready for the 
next voting cycle.
    I do want to add one real quick thing. The accusations that 
were levied against a Republican member of the Luzerne County 
Election Board, she wanted to not certify the election until 
all of these issues were figured out. Lo and behold, a few days 
later, accusations appeared. Those accusations are now brought 
in front of this Committee.
    That is what we are dealing with in Luzerne County. It is 
kind of a microcosm of, I am sure, what is national. These are 
the same political partisan games that are happening there.
    No, I do not have confidence.
    Mr. Carey. Okay.
    Mr. Walsh?
    Mr. Walsh. No, sir, I do not believe that the voters in 
Luzerne County are confident whatsoever. In fact, I thought our 
confidence level was low to start the last election. It is at 
an all-time low now.
    Thank you.
    Mr. Carey. Okay.
    With that, Mr. Chairman, I will yield back the balance of 
my time.
    Mr. Loudermilk. The gentleman yields.
    I now recognize Mr. D'Esposito for 5 minutes.
    Mr. D'Esposito. Well, thank you, Mr. Chair.
    I guess, to follow up on Mr. Carey's questions, we know 
that we are not confident. I guess I am going to pose a similar 
question in how do we regain that confidence.
    Mr. Fitzgerald. Again, I think I just said that. I think, 
you know, we cannot gut the Election Bureau because then we 
have nobody. Somebody needs to be accountable. I think we need 
to address that.
    Again, we need to put all hands on deck, the county 
administrator, the county manager. Maybe get some other county 
employees to come over and lend hands. Outside help.
    Until we get a structure in place where everything, like, 
from a paper clip inventory to paper to training, I think for 
recruiting for poll watchers on a weekly basis, because we are 
an elderly community in Luzerne County, and most of our poll 
watchers are elderly, we are going to have issues in the 
future. If we do not address them immediately, they are just 
going to get worse.
    Mr. D'Esposito. Thank you.
    Mr. Herring. I would say--and it is a pretty simple 
concept--bipartisanship would actually work. I mean, we as 
voters, depending on if you go Republican or Democrat, a lot of 
the precincts that were affected were one party. A lot of the 
folks that you hear from are one party. That one party feels 
like they were disproportionately affected by this election.
    I do want to point out that the acting election director 
for this last election was a City Council Democrat. The 
Election Board is ran by a majority Democrat. The only way to 
make confidence in the other side is by making them part of the 
process and not making this a partisan issue.
    Mr. D'Esposito. Thank you.
    Mr. Walsh. I think before we make it better we have to know 
what happened. There are always solutions. I really feel, even 
between Republicans and Democrats, you can always find a win-
win somewhere. I know it seems crazy these days, but I really 
believe that you can find a win-win. If you do not know the 
core of the problem and what took place, how can you fix it?
    Mr. D'Esposito. I agree, Mr. Walsh. Especially when it 
comes to elections, we should be finding a common ground.
    Mr. Chair, I would like to submit for the record two 
articles, one from Tioga Publishing and one from the Times 
Leader, just refuting Mr. Morelle's comments. If I could submit 
for the record.
    Mr. Loudermilk. Without objection.
    [The articles referred to follow:]
    [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT] 

    
    Mr. D'Esposito. Thank you. With that, I will yield back my 
time.
    Mr. Loudermilk. The gentleman yields.
    I now recognize Ms. Lee for 5 minutes.
    Ms. Lee. Thank you all so much for being here. This is such 
an important topic. Hearing your personal stories and 
perspectives really helps us get a sense of what it was like 
there on election day, which is so important to us.
    Mr. Walsh, I would like to start my questions with you, 
having heard your testimony to this point and having read your 
written statement. In the most general sense, Mr. Walsh, do you 
feel like there was a free and fair election in your county in 
2022?
    Mr. Walsh. Absolutely not.
    Ms. Lee. Is it your assessment that voters around your 
State were treated equally to one another?
    Mr. Walsh. No, they were not.
    Ms. Lee. Okay. In your observation and in what you have 
learned as you continue to research this issue, do you believe 
ballots were handled securely in your county?
    Mr. Walsh. Nowhere near secure at all.
    Ms. Lee. Having had the opportunity not only to have your 
own experience but to continue to study this issue and talk to 
others, how do you and your community feel about what happened 
on election day in 2022?
    Mr. Walsh. You know, I talked to a lot of people. I talked 
to most of these people that signed these affidavits. I did not 
talk to every one of them, but I did talk to a lot of them. 
They just feel like things are broken in our county.
    It was like the last three elections it has been something 
else, something else, something else. Then this was like the 
coup de grace. You know what I mean?
    We just do not have--we do not have any trust in what is 
happening in Luzerne County.
    Ms. Lee. If I am understanding your testimony correctly, it 
sounds like one of the things that is important to you is 
transparency and accountability. Would that be fair?
    Mr. Walsh. That is a fair assessment.
    Ms. Lee. Alright. Is there anything besides those two 
things--which we are actually working very hard to do here in 
Congress on this subject--is there anything beyond that that we 
could be doing that would help allay your concerns and develop 
a better going-forward strategy?
    Mr. Walsh. You know, I heard a couple of times tonight--or 
today--that more money needs to be thrown at it. I just do not 
agree with that.
    I think there is a core issue and a core problem. It may be 
a handful of individuals. I am not pointing my finger at any 
one person. We need to find out what the problem is.
    A $65,000 salary for Election Bureau--our average single 
income in Luzerne County is just over $29,000, $54,000 for a 
couple. A $65,000 salary for an Election Bureau director is not 
a bad salary in our town.
    I do not think throwing money at the problem. I think the 
management of funds is the issue in Luzerne County.
    Ms. Lee. Alright. Thank you.
    Mr. Herring, I would like to pose a similar question to 
you. Do you have any observations based on what you have seen 
and what you have heard today about how we might be taking 
action to ensure that our future elections operate more 
effectively?
    Mr. Herring. Well, I know it is an unpopular thing 
apparently, but accountability, again, as has been stated so 
much in this room.
    Even more so, the Luzerne County Board of Elections has in 
their own rule book that they can conduct an internal 
investigation into what happened. When it goes to the 
accountability piece, I think that is an important part. They 
could have conducted their own investigation.
    That is why they are in those positions. They did not get 
asked to go into those. They signed up and said: I will do 
this. They had to agree to it.
    Why did not they conduct their own internal investigation 
before turning it over to the district attorney? I think it 
goes back to accountability. Either they did not understand 
their own rule book, or they did not want to follow it.
    That is one of the big issues that needs to be looked into 
as well because now they hide behind, they shield themselves 
under this current investigation.
    Ms. Lee. Thank you, Mr. Herring.
    Mr. Fitzgerald, to you. Is there anything that you would 
add in terms of what we should be looking at and what we should 
be attempting to implement or do going forward to ensure we 
have better elections in the future?
    Mr. Fitzgerald. Yes. I think that the County Council, they 
should change the charter where right now it says, as far as 
who gets on the board, it should be two of one party, two of 
another, and you vote the other party. It is always going to be 
three Republicans and two Democrats or three Democrats and two.
    I think they should change it, have no more than two of any 
party. Then this way no one party can steamroll another party. 
That is No. 1.
    No. 2, at the Election Bureau, we are all about diversity, 
except when it comes to the Election Bureau. Diversity in the 
Election Bureau should be not Black, White, man, female. It 
should be Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, and Communist. 
Whatever. Whatever you are voting, whatever demographics you 
have in your county could possibly be there.
    When you have--you know, like it is like going to a 
football game, and the Giants offense and the Giants defense 
and the coach of the Giants are flipping the coin toss. Hey, it 
is heads. How the hell are we supposed to know if it is heads 
or tails? Are you kidding me? That is what we have in our 
county. It is a joke. It really is.
    Again, it goes right back to the hiring. If we can have 
transparency and we can work together, and we have--I hate to 
say it, but it is possible--a Democrat and a Republican as 
director and assistant director. The Republican can go to the 
Republicans: Hey, Republicans, they are not cheating. The 
Democrat or vice-versa could go: They are not cheating and they 
work together. That would be a beautiful thing.
    We do not have that in Luzerne County. We have a person 
that is in charge, hires their friends of the same political 
view, and then the other party gets screwed. It does not take a 
rocket scientist to figure that one out.
    If you want to ask me, I know it is against the law, you 
are not allowed to hire people based on their political views, 
but when people are interviewing for the job, they just go on 
Facebook, Google, or the voter list and find out what the hell 
they voted, and they could hire whoever they want. They could 
say they did not know, but they do.
    Ms. Lee. Well, thank you, gentlemen, each for sharing your 
stories and your perspectives with us here today.
    Mr. Chairman, I yield back.
    Mr. Loudermilk. The chair of the Elections Subcommittee 
yields back.
    I now recognize to the gentleman from Pennsylvania, Mr. 
Meuser, for 5 minutes.
    Mr. Meuser. Thank you, Chairman. May I say, it is great 
having the former secretary of state of Florida here asking 
questions and helping us get to the bottom of this.
    Gentlemen and those who testified just the audios and all 
we listened to, thank you very much for being here. There is no 
question, I think everybody listening--and a lot of people are 
listening, by the way. This is on C-SPAN and other places. Or 
not necessarily C-SPAN, but other streams. Very, very 
compelling. Very, very important. I think will make a 
difference. It certainly needs to.
    It certainly will not change November 8th, 2022, but if 
this is not being heard--the level of frustration, the level of 
honesty, the level of accuracy, the level of firsthand 
information as to what has occurred, and the general sense and 
feel from each of you. I mean, we have got Ross Township. We 
have got Duryea.
    Mr. Herring, where are you from?
    Mr. Herring. Actually, I am from Duryea, Sweet Valley.
    Mr. Meuser. Sweet Valley. Okay. Part of my district, some 
in District Eight. Great.
    By the way, Mr. Herring, thank you for your service.
    Mr. Herring. Thank you. I appreciate it.
    Mr. Meuser. Thank you.
    Look, why this gets in everybody's head so bad, I mean, it 
is kind of like if fuel was not delivered to the Indy 500 on 
the day of the race. It is like if at the Super Bowl, no 
footballs were brought.
    Did you use that one before, Mr. Fitzgerald.
    Mr. Fitzgerald. Yes, we used that analogy earlier today.
    Mr. Meuser. No paper for the voting machines. It is just 
incredulous that that could occur.
    Earlier I asked, in the earlier testimony, how did this 
happen? They said, well, they did not order paper. Well, 
obviously. What was the system? Who was to order it? Who else 
was involved? Was it the purchasing? Was not there a checklist 
on what to cover the days previous to the election? You know 
what the answer to that is? Of course there is.
    That is why no other county perhaps in the country, let 
alone Pennsylvania, experienced anywhere near the type of 
problems that we did in Luzerne County.
    We do demand accountability. We do demand some 
responsibility. We have got to have a clear picture as to what 
is being done to correct this problem moving forward, whatever 
it might be. It could be very simple. At least the chain of 
decision making so this does not occur.
    Look, I have got a lot of questions, but I really, really 
appreciate everything that you had to say here. Why those 
responsible have not been screaming from the rooftops comments 
and procedures of what is going to occur in less than 60 days 
in our primary election is perhaps worse than the mistakes that 
were made on election day itself. What has been done?
    Their level of silence is highly unacceptable and continues 
to bleed confidence from our--from my constituents, the people 
of Luzerne County, the people of Pennsylvania, probably the 
people of the country that are listening to this.
    We certainly need to get that response from this Committee 
hearing as well as from the district attorney's report, I 
hope--which, of course, is not a criminal investigation, but it 
should be taking the people's well-being into consideration.
    Go ahead, Mr. Herring. You have something to add?
    Mr. Herring. Yes, I am sorry. Just to add real quick. Not 
only did we ask questions at these public meetings, but we also 
followed our process, which was doing the right-to-know laws 
Mr. Fitzgerald talked about. I submitted three right-to-knows. 
All three were denied. Luzerne County has no interest in giving 
us what we are asking for, which is available under the law.
    Not only did they deny, the State ruled on my behalf, I was 
granted my appeal, and then they actually took it to the Court 
of Common Pleas. I have an upcoming court hearing just to get 
right-to-know requests through the county.
    I just want you to know this is what we are dealing with.
    Mr. Meuser. Mr. Fitzgerald, has the county in any way done 
anything to renew or instill any confidence in you in the 
upcoming election, for the upcoming election?
    Mr. Fitzgerald. No. They are actually doing the opposite. 
Instead of just coming out, like I said, and just doing 
everything they can to get back voter confidence--an apology is 
the thing. Hey, listen. I have kids and we all--and me, I have 
done a lot of things that I am--you know, we all have.
    The first thing is, you have to take ownership of it. You 
have to apologize. Then you have to reconcile that. They have 
not even apologized.
    You cannot reconcile something until you at least admit you 
did something wrong. Look in the mirror and say: I messed up. 
How do we fix it?
    Mr. Meuser. Mr. Walsh, last word? Any further comments to 
instill confidence in you or your thoughts?
    Mr. Walsh. I just think we have to figure out the root of 
the problem. You cannot fix this going forward. It is unfixable 
right now until we know what happened in November. That is it. 
I mean, I do not know why this is so difficult.
    Just to Mr. Herring's comment about this right-to-know, why 
the county would put us through hoops if they had nothing to 
hide. Why do they take him to court over our right-to-know 
access that he is requesting from the county?
    Mr. Meuser. I, too, would like to know what they are afraid 
of even participating in today's hearing. I agree with you.
    Thank you all again very, very much.
    Mr. Loudermilk. The gentleman yields.
    First of all, let me thank our witnesses for appearing 
before us today.
    Just remind Members of the Committee that, if you have 
additional questions--which they may have for you--we ask that 
you please respond to those questions in writing.
    At this point, I recognize Ranking Member Morelle for 
closing statements.
    Mr. Morelle. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, for yielding.
    Thank you to the witnesses for your testimony and for being 
here.
    As I mentioned in my opening statement and has been 
discussed throughout this hearing, the paper shortages and 
other issues on election day in Luzerne County in 2022 were 
inexcusable.
    Many of the factual questions, however, about what led to 
the election day issues remain unanswered after nearly two-and-
a-half hours of our hearing.
    It is not surprising. The witnesses most able to provide 
relevant testimony rightfully declined to testify due to the 
ongoing district attorney's investigation.
    Much has been said by witnesses and by Members about the 
fact that this is in the district attorney's office. I want to 
just submit to the record three sections of Pennsylvania title 
25 statute.
    The first section, 2642(i), which requires the Board of 
Elections ``to investigate election frauds, irregularities and 
violations of this act, and to report all suspicious 
circumstances to the district attorney.''
    Section 355(b) of title 25: ``The code delegates the 
district attorney of any county in which a violation has 
occurred shall have concurrent powers and responsibilities with 
the attorney general over violations committed under this 
act.''
    Finally, under the same title, section 1802: ``Each 
commission shall investigate alleged violations of this part 
within its county and report apparent violations to the 
district attorney of the county.''
    The Pennsylvania statute clearly determined in State law 
that the first obligation is to report irregularities to the 
district attorney. That is what should happen. That is what is 
happening. I support that happening.
    I do think, also, that once the report of the district 
attorney is made available--and my understanding is there is no 
reason to suggest that the district attorney will not do 
anything other than his obligation. I understand he is a 
qualified individual.
    I might note, parenthetically, he is a Republican. I think 
he will do the right thing. I am sure of that. I am sure my 
colleagues will agree.
    Then I think that when we get that report, then many of the 
questions that have been asked today will understandably be 
answered. If not, then there are additional opportunities for 
us to investigate.
    Also, I just want to note, none of the testimony today 
provided that I heard supports the conclusory title of this 
hearing as an example of Government suppression in the title of 
the hearing, Government voter--Government suppression.
    I do note the FBI website: ``Intentionally deceiving 
qualified voters to prevent them from voting is voter 
suppression.'' ``Intentionally deceiving qualified voters to 
prevent them from voting is voter suppression--and it is a 
Federal crime,'' in addition to potentially State crimes, 
because there were both Federal elections and State elections 
on the ballot in 2022.
    All this leads me simply to say this. This is tragic. What 
happened to all voters in Luzerne County is tragic.
    Let us do the right thing. Let us get the report from the 
district attorney who is empowered by Pennsylvania law to do 
the initial investigation on any irregularities.
    Once that report comes back, if we determine that there are 
further things this Committee ought to do, I would strongly 
suggest, Mr. Chair, and I will support a second hearing to take 
note of whatever the report is and to ask for additional 
testimony based on that report and to continue to look at what 
responsibilities the Election Bureau had, who was responsible 
for this.
    This is catastrophic. It should not be done. I would 
continue to support efforts to get to the bottom of what 
happened.
    I appreciate very much you allowing me the opportunity to 
offer some additional comments. I would submit these sections 
of Pennsylvania code with unanimous consent for the record.
    With that, I yield back, sir.
    Mr. Loudermilk. Without objection.
    [The Pennsylvania code sections referred to follows:]
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    Mr. Loudermilk. Thank you for being here.
    I agree with Mr. Morelle that we have more unanswered 
questions at this point. That is why I think it is important 
for us to continue down this path.
    I also think that it was important for us to have this 
hearing now, even though we did not have people that should 
have been here that could have answered some of these 
questions, because this is so important. It is going to take 
multiple hearings. It is going to take a lot of investigation 
for us to get to the bottom of this, get the proper answers, 
and ensure that this never happens again.
    I think it was timely to have this hearing. I think it was 
important to have this hearing, and I think it is important 
that we continue the oversight and investigations that we are 
empowered to do.
    I also want to bring up that, according to ``Britannica,'' 
voter suppression is also defined as, ``in U.S. history and 
politics, any legal or extralegal measure or strategy whose 
purpose or practical effect is to reduce voting, or registering 
to vote,'' by members of a targeted group or political party or 
religious community.
    I think, as I had stated in my questioning earlier, there 
very well could--these actions very well could equate to voter 
suppression simply by losing the faith and confidence of the 
American people in their electoral system.
    Without objection, each Member will have 5 legislative--
Okay. We are going to pause for just a moment, as I have been 
advised that the full chair of the Committee is returning and 
would like to actually close out the Committee hearing. Without 
objection, we will just pause for a moment.
    Members are advised that votes will be called in 
approximately 5 minutes. Votes in the full House.
    Chairman Steil [Presiding.] Thank you, Mr. Loudermilk.
    Mr. Ranking Member, sorry for being tardy on my return 
back.
    I just wanted to comment and say thank you for 
participating in today's hearing. I think throughout the 
hearing today we heard about the challenges that Luzerne County 
had, about how voters like yourselves, like others who we 
played testimony of here today, how they were disenfranchised 
by actors in Luzerne County.
    I think ultimately, at the end of the day, everyone 
deserves answers as to what occurred. Many people were heard 
here today. I think at the end of the day, we deserve, and you 
deserve, and the people of Luzerne County deserve answers as to 
what happened.
    I appreciate your testimony. I appreciate every Member of 
the Committee for participating, Mr. Meuser and the Ranking 
Member as well.
    Without objection, each Member shall have 5 legislative 
days to insert additional material into the record or revise 
and extend their remarks.
    If there is no further business, I thank the Members for 
their participation. Without objection, the Committee stands 
adjourned.
    [Whereupon, at 1:31 p.m., the Committee was adjourned.]

                    QUESTIONS FOR THE RECORD
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