[House Hearing, 118 Congress]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]





                                 



 
                         LEGISLATIVE HEARING ON


               H.R. 522; H.R. 2830; H.R. 3601; H.R. 3722;


              H.R. 3738; H.R. 3816; H.R. 5190; H.R. 5702;


       H.R. 5785; H.R. 5913; H.R. 5914; H.R. 5956; AND H.R. XXXX

=======================================================================

                                HEARING

                               before the

                  SUBCOMMITTEE ON ECONOMIC OPPORTUNITY

                                 of the

                     COMMITTEE ON VETERANS' AFFAIRS

                     U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

                    ONE HUNDRED EIGHTEENTH CONGRESS

                             FIRST SESSION

                               __________

                       THURSDAY, NOVEMBER 2, 2023

                               __________

                           Serial No. 118-36

                               __________

       Printed for the use of the Committee on Veterans' Affairs
       
       [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT] 


                    Available via http://govinfo.gov
                    
                    
                           ______

             U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE 
 54-319                WASHINGTON : 2024   
                    
                    
                    
                    
                    
                    
                     COMMITTEE ON VETERANS' AFFAIRS

                     MIKE BOST, Illinois, Chairman

AUMUA AMATA COLEMAN RADEWAGEN,       MARK TAKANO, California, Ranking 
    American Samoa, Vice-Chairwoman      Member
JACK BERGMAN, Michigan               JULIA BROWNLEY, California
NANCY MACE, South Carolina           MIKE LEVIN, California
MATTHEW M. ROSENDALE, SR., Montana   CHRIS PAPPAS, New Hampshire
MARIANNETTE MILLER-MEEKS, Iowa       FRANK J. MRVAN, Indiana
GREGORY F. MURPHY, North Carolina    SHEILA CHERFILUS-MCCORMICK, 
C. SCOTT FRANKLIN, Florida               Florida
DERRICK VAN ORDEN, Wisconsin         CHRISTOPHER R. DELUZIO, 
MORGAN LUTTRELL, Texas                   Pennsylvania
JUAN CISCOMANI, Arizona              MORGAN MCGARVEY, Kentucky
ELIJAH CRANE, Arizona                DELIA C. RAMIREZ, Illinois
KEITH SELF, Texas                    GREG LANDSMAN, Ohio
JENNIFER A. KIGGANS, Virginia        NIKKI BUDZINSKI, Illinois

                       Jon Clark, Staff Director
                  Matt Reel, Democratic Staff Director

                  SUBCOMMITTEE ON ECONOMIC OPPORTUNITY

                 DERRICK VAN ORDEN, Wisconsin, Chairman

NANCY MACE, South Carolina           MIKE LEVIN, California Ranking 
C. SCOTT FRANKLIN, Florida               Member
JUAN CISCOMANI, Arizona              FRANK J. MRVAN, Indiana
ELIJAH CRANE, Arizona                MORGAN MCGARVEY, Kentucky
                                     DELIA C. RAMIREZ, Illinois

Pursuant to clause 2(e)(4) of Rule XI of the Rules of the House, public 
hearing records of the Committee on Veterans' Affairs are also 
published in electronic form. The printed hearing record remains the 
official version. Because electronic submissions are used to prepare 
both printed and electronic versions of the hearing record, the process 
of converting between various electronic formats may introduce 
unintentional errors or omissions. Such occurrences are inherent in the 
current publication process and should diminish as the process is 
further refined.
                         C  O  N  T  E  N  T  S

                              ----------                              

                       THURSDAY, NOVEMBER 2, 2023

                                                                   Page

                           OPENING STATEMENTS

The Honorable Derrick Van Orden, Chairman........................     1
The Honorable Mike Levin, Ranking Member.........................     3

                               WITNESSES
                                Panel 1

Mr. Joseph Garcia, Executive Director, Education Services, 
  Department of Veterans Affairs.................................     4

        Accompanied by:

    Mr. Nick Pamperin, Executive Director, Veterans Readiness & 
        Employment Services, Department of Veterans Affairs

    Mr. James Ruhlman, Deputy Director, Education Services, 
        Department of Veterans Affairs

Ms. Margarita Devlin, Deputy Assistant Secretary for Operations 
  and Management, Department of Labor............................     5

                                Panel 2

Ms. Kristina Keenan, Deputy Director, National Legislative 
  Service, Veterans of Foreign Wars..............................    23

Mr. Marquis Barefield, Assistant National Legislative Director, 
  Disabled American Veterans.....................................    25

Ms. Tammy Barlet, Vice President of Government Affairs, Student 
  of Veterans of America.........................................    26

Mr. Joseph W. Wescott II, Ed.D, Legislative Director, National 
  Association of State Approving Agencies, Inc...................    28

Mr. Michael Hazard, Veterans in Piping Program Manager, United 
  Association of Journeymen and Apprentices of the Plumbing and 
  Pipe Fitting Industry of the United States and Canada..........    29

                                APPENDIX
                    Prepared Statements Of Witnesses

Mr. Joseph Garcia Prepared Statement.............................    43
Ms. Margarita Devlin Prepared Statement..........................    53
Ms. Kristina Keenan Prepared Statement...........................    58
Mr. Marquis Barefield Prepared Statement.........................    62
Clarifying Statement of Marquis Barefield........................    66
Ms. Tammy Barlet Prepared Statement..............................    68
Mr. Joseph W. Wescott II, Ed.D Prepared Statement................    77
Mr. Michael Hazard Prepared Statement............................    79

                          APPENDIX--continued
                       Statements For The Record

The American Legion..............................................    81
Veterans Education Project.......................................    94
Veterans Education Success.......................................    95
Commercial Vehicle Training Association..........................   102
National Association of State Workforce Agencies.................   104
Military-Veterans Advocacy, Inc..................................   106


                         LEGISLATIVE HEARING ON



               H.R. 522; H.R. 2830; H.R. 3601; H.R. 3722;



              H.R. 3738; H.R. 3816; H.R. 5190; H.R. 5702;



       H.R. 5785; H.R. 5913; H.R. 5914; H.R. 5956; AND H.R. XXXX

                              ----------                              


                       THURSDAY, NOVEMBER 2, 2023

             U.S. House of Representatives,
              Subcommittee on Economic Opportunity,
                            Committee on Veterans' Affairs,
                                                   Washington, D.C.
    The subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 2:04 p.m., in 
room 360, Cannon House Office Building, Hon. Derrick Van Orden 
(chairman of the subcommittee) presiding.
    Present: Representatives Van Orden, Mace, Franklin, 
Ciscomani, Crane, Levin, Mrvan, McGarvey, and Ramirez.
    Also present: Representatives Edwards, James, Moylan, 
Budzinski, Kiggans, and Nunn.

        OPENING STATEMENT OF DERRICK VAN ORDEN, CHAIRMAN

    Mr. Van Orden. Good afternoon. The subcommittee will come 
to order. I welcome the witnesses and subcommittee members, as 
well as a few distinguished members that have asked to 
participate in this legislative hearing today. They will be 
here at their convenience.
    As I have often in the subcommittee, we operate in a 
nonpartisan way and I am very proud of my Republican and 
Democrat colleagues for continuing to do so.
    We have 13 important legislative proposals to consider here 
today, and not all the proposals will move forward in this 
process, unfortunately. The purpose of this hearing is to hear 
from folks with expertise on assisting veterans about the 
benefits and shortcomings the various pieces of legislation. 
Without thorough agency and stakeholder insight the 
subcommittee would be unable to move several important pieces 
of legislation so far this Congress. I look forward to hearing 
from our witnesses today on their thoughts on the bills that 
have been noticed.
    A number of these proposals seek to improve the education 
experience for America's veterans and make it easier for 
veterans to receive accurate information about their options 
for using the GI Bill benefits and ensure that they get the 
best bang for their buck with the GI Bill. As a veteran who 
served for this Nation for over 26 years, I know how important 
the GI Bill is for opening doors for transitioning service 
members to become productive members of society following their 
service.
    I specifically want to highlight my friend and colleague, 
Mr. Ciscomani's proposal, the Expanding Access For Online 
Veteran Students Act. For years, the subcommittee has heard 
from many student veterans about how the online monthly housing 
allowance (MHA) is too low and it puts many student veterans 
who need to take online classes during the summer because they 
have a family, a job, or not near the college, at a 
disadvantage and struggling to make ends meet. Mr. Ciscomani's 
proposal would address these concerns head on for student 
veterans who take summer courses. It would also allow students 
attending universities in person in the fall and spring to not 
have to worry about putting food on the table during the 
summer. With skyrocketing inflation and the cost of living 
higher than ever, this bill will help fix and ensure student 
veterans have access to the resources they need, and I am happy 
to be one of an original co-sponsors on this legislation.
    We will also consider bills to improve suicide prevention 
and outreach services and advance the home loan program.
    We will also consider H.R. 5913. My bill will eliminate 
bureaucratic red tape and help the lack of accountability that 
veterans are met with when seeking employment assistance. While 
this bill would move Department of Labor-Veterans Employment 
and Training Services (DOL VETS) to a VA, it would not lead to 
employees being fired or the unions lacking representation. 
Instead, this proposal will allow for better accountability and 
oversight between Congress and DOL Vets and ensure the agency 
is here to serve its veterans first and put everything else 
aside.
    Finally, we will hear from stakeholders at the VA about the 
idea of a fourth administration. Over the last few years, we 
have seen Veterans Benefits Administration's (VBA's) number of 
employees dramatically increase, however, the subcommittee 
still hears significant concerns about the quality service 
delivered to veterans from the VBA. To that end, I am going to 
be asking the VA to provide the subcommittee with a detailed 
breakdown of employees at Veterans Benefits Administration 
assigned to address the employment and education needs to our 
veterans. I think it is very important that the committee 
understand how these resources are prioritized. Essentially, I 
just need a list of troop to task--just in military parlance.
    I do have grave reservations about several--excuse me--I 
have reservations about several of their proposals on the 
agenda today and the witness testimony in question. Members of 
the subcommittee will ask today--will hopefully address some of 
these issues so members can make informed decisions about these 
bills.
    We look forward to hearing from the members who have 
introduced these proposals, as well as our witnesses on how we 
can continue to improve these bills and create a more economic 
create more economic opportunities for veterans.
    I will now yield to my ranking member for 5 minutes for his 
opening remarks.

        OPENING STATEMENT OF MIKE LEVIN, RANKING MEMBER

    Mr. Levin. Thanks so much, Chairman Van Orden, for holding 
this hearing. Important hearing, 13 pieces of legislation in 
Congress, including this committee. We have got some lost time 
last few weeks. We are making up for it, and I am absolutely 
thrilled about that. We have got some really important bills 
here that we need to get to the floor.
    One in particular, H.R. 3848, the Home Act, which will mean 
thousands of veterans once again being able to travel to 
medical appointments and be able to receive assistance from VA 
as winter approaches. Similarly, eager to advance many of the 
bills before the subcommittee this afternoon, including my 
legislation, the Veterans Assistance for Loan Origination 
Relief, or VALOR Act, pretty good acronym, to make home 
ownership more accessible for transitioning service members 
with disabilities.
    Under current policies, veterans who receive a disability 
rating after closing on their home may be refunded the VA Home 
Loan Funding Fee. However, transitioning service members with a 
pending pre-discharge claim at the time of closing are not 
eligible for a refund if they later receive a rating. The VALOR 
Act would make these individuals eligible for a refund, 
eliminating this disparity. In doing so, it will support 
disabled service members transitioning out of the military and 
setting a strong foundation for their civilian lives.
    Also on the agenda is Representative Budzinski's H.R. 5785. 
This legislation would open up the Edith Nourse Rogers STEM 
Scholarship Program to more veterans pursuing further education 
in science, technology, engineering, and math. This program has 
had exceptionally low participation due to overly restrictive 
guidelines limiting student veterans opportunities.
    I want to thank the chairman for also including H.R. 3738 
in today's hearing, which I introduced with Representative 
Wenstrup to establish a fourth administration within VA to 
focus on veteran housing, education, and other benefits. Brad 
and I have been working on this for quite a while. This bill 
would more closely align VA with how our committee delineates 
veterans policy issues and elevate economic programs at the 
undersecretary level, bolstering oversight of these benefits so 
they can be delivered more effectively.
    I do want to raise some concerns regarding the legislation 
to move DOL Vets programs to VA. The Department of Labor is our 
government's best place for finding employment resources and 
has been effective in running the programs within its Veterans 
Employment and Training Service. Some will remember that when 
this committee advocated for moving the responsibility for 
service member transition from Department of Defense (DoD) to 
VA, we highlighted that DoD did not share the mission or goals 
of these programs, and that is simply not true for employment 
and DOL Vets.
    Finally, I want to address a proposal to provide full 
monthly housing allowance for online learning for student 
veterans. We have got to continue making progress when it comes 
to providing veterans with access to education, and COVID 
showed the value in online learning opportunities. Research has 
shown clearly that you cannot fully replicate the experience of 
in person learning with online learning. That is true for 
veterans, it is true for everybody. I have two young kids at 
home, so I can attest to this one. I hope that as we discuss 
the Expanding Access for Online Veteran Students Act, we look 
at how we can improve learning opportunities, not drive more 
students to lower performing programs.
    I look forward to our work today and moving forward to 
advance the strongest proposals to full committee as quickly as 
possible. My thanks again to our chairman for holding today's 
hearing, and I yield back.
    Mr. Van Orden. Thank you, Ranking Member Levin.
    In accordance with committee rules, I ask unanimous consent 
that Representative Edwards from North Carolina be permitted to 
participate in today's subcommittee hearing.
    Without objection.
    I will now introduce the witness panel.
    Our first witness is Mr. Joseph Garcia, the Executive 
Director of Education Services at the Department of Veterans 
Affairs. Mr. Garcia is accompanied by Nick Pamperin, executive 
director of Veterans Readiness and Employment (VR&E) Services, 
and Mr. James Ruhlman, the deputy director of Education 
Services. Our second witness is Ms. Margarita Devlin, deputy 
assistant secretary for operations and management for Veterans 
Employment and Training Services at the Department of Labor.
    I will now swear in the witnesses.
    [Witnesses sworn]
    Mr. Van Orden. Let the record reflect the witnesses have 
answered in the affirmative.
    I ask the witnesses and members today to respect the 5 
minute rule. I am just going to say this, you guys know the 
deal, you have been here long enough that everybody stops at 5 
minutes. Thank you for that.
    Mr. Garcia, you are now recognized for 5 minutes to deliver 
your testimony from the Department of Veterans Affairs.

                   STATEMENT OF JOSEPH GARCIA

    Mr. Garcia. Good afternoon. Chairman Van Orden, Ranking 
Member Levin, members of subcommittee, thank you for the 
opportunity to discuss pending legislation that would affect 
VA's programs and services.
    With me is Mr. Nick Pamperin, executive director, Veteran 
Readiness and Employment Service, and Mr. James Ruhlman, deputy 
director, Education Service.
    Mr. Chairman, with 12 bills on the agenda, I will highlight 
several in my oral statement as we have provided detailed 
comments in the full testimony to include areas of support and 
concern.
    VA would support, if amended, section 2 of the Improving 
Service Member Transition to Reduced Veteran Suicide Act. 
Currently, VA Solid Start, or VAST, employees conduct 
personalized conversations tailored to the unique needs of 
recent separated service members to increase awareness and use 
of VA benefits and services. VA has concerns that the bill may 
restrict the intent of the VAST program. VA would support, if 
amended, the draft bill that waives the loan fee for a veteran 
obtaining a VA guaranteed loan based on the date of the 
veteran's pre-discharge medical examination rather than on the 
date of a rating or memorandum rating for disability 
compensation. This would establish an earlier point for a 
veteran to be treated as receiving VA compensation for home 
loan purposes. VA supports, but is concerned that it could 
result in a complex back end refund process that would be 
confusing for veterans, service members, lenders, and VA 
employees, and that the bill could lead to an unsustainable 
financial position.
    VA does not support H.R. 3738 that would establish a new 
Veterans Economic Opportunity and Transition Administration. VA 
appreciates Congress' focus on improving services and resources 
offered by these programs, however, the current VBA structure 
reflects the undersecretary for benefits overall responsibility 
that does include programs related to economic opportunity and 
transition, as well as compensation, pension, survivors 
benefits, and insurance. The VBA portfolio forms a suite of 
resources that veterans can rely on.
    VA supports the Veteran Improvement Commercial Driver 
License Act. VA believes approval of a course offered at a 
branch with less than a 2 year operation period under certain 
conditions would provide more training opportunities for 
veterans, boost employment in this occupational area, and still 
maintain state approved agency authority and oversight.
    VA supports the Deliver for Veterans Act. This is a 
veteran-centric bill that potentially increases the automobile 
or other conveyance allowance for veterans. Amending the law to 
include the shipping costs would remove a cost burden to any 
veteran utilizing this benefit.
    Finally, VA would also support, if amended, to establish an 
amount payable for the monthly housing allowance under the post 
9/11 GI Bill for certain distance learners enrolled during the 
summer.
    Mr. Chairman, as always, VA is open to collaboration with 
you and the committee to ensure we are providing world class 
benefits that our veterans have earned and deserve. My 
colleagues and I would be glad to answer any questions you or 
member of the subcommittee may have.

    [The Prepared Statement Of Joseph Garcia Appears In The 
Appendix ]

    Mr. Van Orden. Thank you, Mr. Garcia. The written statement 
of Mr. Garcia will be entered into the hearing record.
    Ms. Devlin, you are now recognized for 5 minutes to deliver 
your testimony.

                 STATEMENT OF MARGARITA DEVLIN

    Ms. Devlin. Thank you, Chairman Van Orden and Ranking 
Member Levin and distinguished members of the subcommittee. 
Thank you for the opportunity to testify at today's hearing.
    The mission of the Department of Labor Veterans Employment 
and Training Service is to prepare America's veterans, service 
members, and military spouses for meaningful careers, provide 
them with employment opportunities and resources, promote their 
employment rights, and protect their employment rights. Today, 
the subcommittee is considering the Consolidating Veterans 
Employment Services for Improved Performance Act of 2023, a 
bill that would transfer VETS from Department of Labor to the 
Department of Veterans Affairs and likewise transfer the 
administration of the Jobs for Veterans State Grant, the 
Homeless Veteran Reintegration Program, the employment related 
portion of the Transition Assistance (TAP) Program, the DOL's 
Uniform Services Employment Reemployment Rights Act enforcement 
responsibilities, and other related responsibilities. DOL 
strongly opposes this bill.
    DOL is the lead Federal department for employment, 
training, and worker protection programs with extensive 
resources and institutional expertise in those services which 
cannot be replicated elsewhere. VETS is closely integrated with 
and depends on DOL staff and systems across the department to 
function. This includes VETS staff that are an integrated part 
of the public workforce system, which is administered by 
Department of Labor's Employment and Training Administration 
and includes nearly 2,300 American Job Centers across the 
country. These one-stop locations offer a broad range of career 
wraparound services to the public, such as job training 
programs, unemployment insurance, childcare assistance, and 
many other types of services with priority of services for 
veterans.
    DOL is also one of the largest and most experienced grant 
making departments within the Federal Government, and our grant 
officers are a part of the Employment and Training 
Administration's Office of Grants and Management. Our highly 
specialized Uniformed Services Employment and Reemployment 
Rights Act (USERRA) compliance staff similarly work hand in 
hand with the Solicitor's Office.
    VETS depends on and closely collaborates with many other 
departmental labor agencies and cannot properly function 
without all the staff, resources, IT, and data systems, and 
other support provided by and situated throughout the 
department, which cannot be replicated at VA. If VETS is moved 
to the VA, then veterans will lose a significant voice within 
the public workforce system as there would be no longer an 
agency within the Department of Labor that prioritizes and has 
the expertise needed to speak on behalf of this military 
community.
    DOL VETS has also been highly successful in accomplishing 
our mission with positive performance outcomes for our 
programs. My written testimony details our successes at great 
length, but in total, across our programs, DOL Vets 
successfully serves over 440,000 veterans, service members, and 
military spouses each year. The data shows that all DOL Vets 
employment and compliance programs are providing historically 
high performance outcomes. These outcomes are a direct result 
of the knowledge and hard work of DOL employees and of the 
processes and relationships that we have built within the 
department. There is no evidence that moving VETS to the VA 
would improve efficiency or effectiveness of our programs. On 
the contrary, it would be incredibly disruptive to our programs 
and the people we serve. The focus and time of DOL leaders and 
staff and the resources of our agency would immediately shift 
away from our successful institution and toward the task of 
implementing this costly transition to the VA.
    I know that we share a passion and commitment for serving 
veterans and military families. Regardless of the eventual 
outcome of this legislation being considered, I want every 
member to know that I will continue to work with you and your 
staff, as always, and stakeholders to improve and continue to 
improve our programs.
    Thank you for this opportunity to testify today, and I will 
happily answer any questions that you have.

    [The Prepared Statement Of Margarita Devlin Appears In The 
Appendix]

    Mr. Van Orden. Thank you, Ms. Devlin. The written statement 
of Ms. Devlin will be entered into the hearing record.
    We are now going to proceed to questioning and I now 
recognize myself for 5 minutes.
    Mr. Garcia, by the way, you guys know the deal, I read all 
your written testimony. It is great. Even though I am talking 
to Kate here, it is about some details, but I have read it all 
and it is very thorough, and I appreciate the fact that you put 
a significant amount of work into that. Mr. Garcia, your VA 
testimony states that the VBA's portfolio is thriving. Could 
you briefly go into a little bit more detail specifically 
centered around the word thriving?
    Mr. Garcia. Sir, we are very proud of what we do at VBA, 
and some of the numbers that we have seen Fiscal Year 2023 are 
record breaking. I cannot speak for all the business lines, but 
I do believe in Education Service though we may have a 
disagreement on certain things, but the GI Bill to me is 
working for our veterans and for our school certifying 
officials (SCO). We just passed the 3 millionth enrollment in 
Enrollment Manager. I can get into more details, but I do 
believe the record shows that VBA is thriving.
    Mr. Van Orden. Sir, the last time that you came here and 
testified on behalf of the VA, we were discussing this, the 
issues with the subcommittee, and I just--I cannot agree with 
the word thriving.
    For instance, on August 17, a ranking member and I, as well 
as the Subcommittee on Technology and Modernization, sent a 
letter regarding our concepts of the Digital GI program. This 
letter had a deadline for September 15--which was the 
anniversary of the invasion of Inchon, in case you are in 
history buff--yet, we did not get a response until nearly a 
month after that on October 10. Maybe we have different 
definitions of the word thriving, Mr. Garcia.
    If we ask you for a product and we give a deadline and it 
takes more than or just under a month to get that back over the 
deadline, I do not think that you guys are operating in an 
efficient manner and that has shown a cascading effect 
throughout several of these programs. I mean could you agree 
that that is a truthful statement.
    Mr. Garcia. For that one time situation, I would agree, 
sir, but I do not think that conveys the entire year that we 
have had in Fiscal Year 2023, for example. Earlier I did accept 
responsibility for that one situation.
    Mr. Van Orden. All right. Creating a fourth admin, 
essentially, in the VBA to handle economic opportunity issues 
would create accountability to make sure it does not happen 
again.
    I have some concerns about the government bureaucracy. I 
actually have a lot of concerns about government bureaucracy, 
but it is clear that there is something with the education 
program that might benefit from more attention at a higher 
level of the VA. One area that might benefit from a higher 
level of attention is the enrollment manager. VA has touted its 
huge success, however, the subcommittee has heard that over 50 
percent of school certifying officials have problems with the 
system and our staff has witnessed these problems firsthand. 
That is a significant amount, Mr. Garcia. I just want you to 
understand that we have a different understanding of thriving, 
again, and I think success and a 50 percent failure rate is 
certainly not successful, and that being able to have a 
different group that solely focuses on this at a higher level 
would be beneficial. I understand that you oppose that. Could 
you tell me briefly why?
    Mr. Garcia. Sir, you mentioned enrollment manager. Again, I 
have a different perspective. We actually asked for a survey 
through our NAPA partner--I think you asked for it. The 21 top 
concerns with enrollment manager, the top 10 I briefed this a 
few weeks ago at a conference. The top ten concerns with 
enrollment manager, nine out of the ten were already addressed 
with releases going back to May. Maybe there is a communication 
gap. Nine out of the ten issues that were raised were 
addressed. And the number one issue is also being addressed for 
a December release. I would have a different perspective when 
it comes to enrollment manager. I hear more positive news than 
maybe you hear. Mr. Ruhlman and I have visited SCOs at 
different conferences, probably over a thousand SCOs. I get a 
different perspective, sir.
    Mr. Van Orden. Very well. Thank you, Mr. Garcia.
    Ms. Devlin, can you tell me the funding level of the 
Homeless Veterans Reintegration Program and how these funds are 
being distributed? Have any of these funds been redirected from 
this program without our knowledge?
    Ms. Devlin. Thank you for the question.
    The budget for Fiscal Year 2023 for the Homeless Veterans' 
Reintegration Program (HVRP) was $65.5 million, and that 
includes payments for obligating grants to HVRP grantees, it 
includes technical assistance, it includes stand downs, it 
includes information technology infrastructure for the program. 
Without your knowledge, you know, sir, we did transfer funds, 
but we did notify the appropriate committee per requirements.
    Mr. Van Orden. Thank you very much.
    My time has expired.
    I now recognize Ranking Member Levin for 5 minutes.
    Mr. Levin. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    Mr. Garcia, in your testimony you estimate that the 
Expanding Access for Online Veteran Students Act, that is my 
friend, Mr. Ciscomani's bill, would cost $3.5 billion dollars 
over 10 years. Does that estimate include behavior changes from 
GI Bill students? Can you explain what changes you would expect 
if Mr. Ciscomani's bill became law?
    Mr. Garcia. Sir, so the bill, the way it is presented is 
for summer programs, right? We do have concerns what does that 
mean, because in our language, we have summer term summer 
session. We need some clarity on how summer programs are 
defined, because, as you know, we have the traditional schools 
that have the spring, summer, and then the fall, what about 
schools that, for example, have 8 week terms, or rolling 
enrollment? I have seen that as well. We need more clarity on 
exactly how that would work in terms of summer programs, for 
example.
    Mr. Levin. Do you think the bill might incentivize students 
to take online classes instead of in person classes?
    Mr. Garcia. If you look at the top 20 schools, for example, 
a lot of them already are online, Purdue, et cetera. I think 
those programs are already popular for various reasons. Adult 
learners tend to want to take online programs, so they are 
already popular. About 37 percent of those receiving monthly 
housing allowance, for example, are receiving the online rate. 
That is a pretty high percentage already receiving the online 
MHA rate.
    Mr. Levin. Got it. I think the University of Arizona in his 
district, I think, is one of those looking to take over. It is 
also my wife's alma mater. He is not here to defend the U of A.
    I will turn to Ms. Devlin. In your testimony on the bill to 
transfer DOL VETS programs to VA, you point to a likely 
disruption in relationships with employers, workforce 
development agencies, and schools. Can you elaborate a bit on 
why that is the case and how that will impact veterans?
    Ms. Devlin. Yes, thank you for the question.
    Department of Labor VETS funds staff that are integrated 
into the American workforce system. As such, we are connected 
to all of the supportive resources that an individual might 
need, and this includes veterans who would otherwise not be 
eligible for VA services. Because of our eligibility categories 
being different, any veteran who walks in our door, regardless 
of their character of service, regardless of how long they 
served, will be eligible for assistance at an American Job 
Center. If they have significant barriers to employment, they 
are also eligible for the intensive case management services.
    We are also integrated across the Department. For example, 
when we are investigating a USERRA complaint where a Guard or 
Reservist has had employment issues with his or her employer, 
we have the Solicitor's Office, which has specific expertise in 
the law around protection for employer rights. That is not 
something that exists in VA right now. When you think about all 
of those things, our connectivity to employers and schools and 
everything is associated with all of those factors, and those 
connective tissues.
    Mr. Levin. Appreciate that very much.
    You also noted that the American Job Centers conduct 
Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program (SNAP) eligibility 
determinations.
    Ms. Devlin. Yes.
    Mr. Levin. It is something I was not aware of. I am 
curious, how long have they been doing this? Then do you have 
any data on how many screenings take place every year or how 
many individuals receive nutrition assistance as a result?
    Ms. Devlin. I do not have those numbers here with me, and I 
would have to come back to you with how long it is been. I can 
tell you I started as a rehabilitation counselor in 1995, back 
when I worked for the VA, and I remember sending veterans to 
the DOL American Job Center to work with their Disabled 
Veterans' Outreach Program (DVOP) to get such supportive 
services.
    Mr. Levin. I think it would be great if you take that back 
and we get those numbers. I think that would be helpful for us 
to understand the scope of that work.
    Mr. Garcia, I will turn back to you on the same bill 
regarding DOL VETS. The testimony from DOL notes that USERRA 
compliance staff works closely with DOL's Office of the 
Solicitor, which has extensive expertise in the nuances of 
employment law. Because the Office of the Solicitor is not 
specific to DOL VETS, my understanding is that it would not be 
transferred under this bill. My question to you is, does VA 
have an equivalent office that would be able to assist with 
these important USERRA cases?
    Mr. Garcia. Mr. Pamperin, can you take that one?
    Mr. Pamperin. I appreciate the question, sir.
    Under the current construct, the USERRA legal department 
resides in DOL. We do not have that within VA.
    Mr. Levin. That is a no?
    Mr. Pamperin. Right. Correct, no.
    Mr. Levin. Right. That is important for us to understand.
    10 seconds left, look at that. I will yield back.
    Mr. Van Orden. Thank you very much.
    The chair now recognizes the gentleman from Florida, Mr. 
Franklin, for 5 minutes.
    Mr. Franklin. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    Ms. Devlin, you previously served as the Principal Deputy 
Undersecretary for Benefits at VA. In that role, you would have 
been tasked with managing both VA readiness and employment 
programs. Having served in both VA and DOL VETS, which program 
do you feel is better equipped to serve the specific needs of 
vets related to employment needs?
    Ms. Devlin. Well, sir, I do not think I can answer that 
question the way that you have asked it. What I will tell you 
is they serve different veterans with different eligibilities. 
For veteran readiness and employment, a veteran has to have a 
service-connected disability to qualify, versus the American 
Job Center and the clients that we serve do not have to have a 
service-connected disability to receive services. It is sort of 
like comparing apples to oranges in terms of the difference of 
populations that we can serve. We work together, which is the 
beauty of it. A VR&E eligible veteran who needs extra 
employment assistance or wraparound services, we work together. 
We have an Memorandum of Understanding (MOU) in place to work 
together with the Veteran Readiness and Employment program, we 
have a monthly work group that meets, and even at the executive 
level, we meet with all VBA leaders of the Economic Opportunity 
Suite with my leaders at DOL VETS to make sure we are 
integrating and looking for opportunities where we can 
collaborate more.
    Mr. Franklin. It all comes down to really whether it was 
just a service-connected disability or not, as to whether--I 
mean given a preference of which direction you would refer 
someone, would you feel more comfortable referring a veteran to 
one program or the other?
    Ms. Devlin. In many cases, I would refer them to use both 
programs if they are eligible for both.
    Mr. Franklin. Okay.
    Ms. Devlin. Yes, so they just have different eligibilities. 
If a veteran does not have a service-connected disability, I 
would absolutely send them to the American Job Center. I 
actually asked my son to go when he got out of the Marine Corps 
to go to the American Job Center for support.
    Mr. Franklin. Okay. Do you think there is any overlap 
between the programs?
    Ms. Devlin. There is no overlap, but they are complementary 
to each other, so they are different. You have got 
rehabilitation counselors, which I will defer to my colleague 
here if he wants to elaborate on the VR&E program, but 
rehabilitation counselors who provide a different array of 
services than a DVOP who is really focused on the employment 
piece and making sure the connectivity happens with all the 
wraparound services. They are related and connected and 
complementary, but not overlapping.
    Mr. Franklin. Okay, well, thank you.
    Mr. Pamperin, if you could expand on that a little bit, I 
would appreciate it.
    Mr. Pamperin. Absolutely, sir.
    Within the Veteran Readiness and Employment Program, you 
are assigned a counselor, and you heard Ms. Devlin talk about 
over 400,000 veterans and service members and family members 
that they serve within the VR&E program. It is a shade over 
130,000 annually is what we serve, and it is designed for 
employment at the end goal. The counseling occurs with the 
veteran as they are going through, in most cases, a traditional 
4 year college or university that goes through the retraining.
    One thing I would like to just state as far as the 
collaborative relationship that we have, because of DOL's 
connectivity, in 2021 we launched an apprenticeship pilot, a 
highly underutilized pilot with our partners at DOL VETS. 
Because of that partnership, we have seen the apprenticeship 
program grow by 30 percent since 2021. That is due to the 
interconnectivity that we have as DOL VETS and VR&E.
    Mr. Franklin. All right. Thank you.
    Mr. Chairman, I yield back.
    Mr. Van Orden. Thank you.
    The chair now recognizes the gentleman from Kentucky, Mr. 
McGarvey, for 5 minutes.
    Mr. McGarvey. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you all so 
much for being here. Really appreciate it.
    Again, this is a committee where we care about our 
veterans, we care about how they are taken care of. I know you 
all share that goal and we want to make sure they continue to 
get the best benefits that they have earned and they deserve.
    One of the bills I wanted to turn to today is one that I 
know I am a co-sponsor of. I think that the sponsor might be 
here as well. It is the Student Veteran Work Study 
Modernization Act. This is a bill that will provide work study 
for veterans who are at least a half time basis, meaning more 
vets from all economic backgrounds can access better schooling 
or vocation training while trying to make ends meet along the 
way. Something we know happens frequently, and we see, 
certainly in my district in Louisville, Kentucky.
    Mr. Garcia, the VA recommends that H.R. 3601 be made 
permanent rather than the pilot program that is proposed right 
now. Can you explain why making this program permanent is 
important?
    Mr. Garcia. Yes, sir.
    Over 6,000 use the Work Study program currently, and 
certainly reducing it to half time would increase the access. 
The 5 year pilot, I compare it to the Vet Tech Program, another 
program that you are familiar with that is also a pilot. What 
tends to happen toward the end of that pilot period, both the 
training providers and the applicants may get confused or do 
not pursue it because you have an end date to it. That would be 
the reason why, using that example, why, if it was made 
permanent, I think it would have less confusion, especially 
toward the end of that 5 year pilot.
    Mr. McGarvey. Thank you. I agree with that.
    Ms. Devlin, I want to turn to the work of DOL VETS and 
appreciate the work DOL VETS is doing to make sure that our 
veterans do have employment when they come home, something that 
is so important as our veterans come back into civilian life.
    One area I want to highlight that we could collaborate more 
on, as I understand it, currently less than 2 percent of post 
9/11 GI Bill recipients utilize the on-the-job training option 
for their training pathway to a family sustaining career. Can 
you elaborate on DOL VETS efforts to promote apprenticeships 
for veterans, service members, and military spouses, including 
through the on the job training (OJT) programs?
    Ms. Devlin. Yes, sir. I can. Thank you for the question.
    We work with employers, and one of the things we have in 
Department of Labor, of course, is the Office of 
Apprenticeship, which lends its expertise to VETS. We have 
employees in our own organization that have a really good 
understanding of it. We have a Veteran Employment Outreach 
Program, and what we do is we connect with employers and help 
them to understand how to develop apprenticeships. Then if they 
are interested in the GI Bill, as we have a really good 
collaborative relationship with VA, we can help connect them, 
help them to understand how to become eligible for a registered 
apprenticeship, which then makes them eligible for the veteran 
to use their GI Bill.
    As Mr. Pamperin mentioned, we have also worked with the 
VR&E Division because it is important for a vocational 
rehabilitation counselor to understand that an apprenticeship 
is not what it used to be. Right. There is lots of 
apprenticeship opportunities to help veterans see the value, if 
that is a path that they would be interested in. We have helped 
them to connect more employers as well.
    Then, of course, we work with DoD SkillBridge and DoD 
United States Military Apprenticeship Program (USMAP) to also 
make sure that employers are understanding how to reach 
transitioning service members before they get out of the 
military to connect them into employment through 
apprenticeship.
    Mr. McGarvey. Appreciate that.
    What do you think is the rationale, in our remaining time, 
why it is such a low number, why that number is at 2 percent? 
What do you think we can do to get that up or help you all to 
bring that number up?
    Ms. Devlin. I think part of it is education and helping 
individuals, the service members and veterans themselves, to 
understand that there are high wages to be earned through 
apprenticeship. I think there is sometimes a misunderstanding 
about what apprenticeship is, what kind of careers you can 
choose from, and so that education needs to happen. Also, I 
think using the GI Bill for college, which is sort of the more 
traditionally accepted route, does result in a different 
housing allowance than if you go through the apprenticeship or 
an OJT option. I think sometimes that can be a partial reason 
because you need living wages, living expenses.
    Mr. McGarvey. Yes, I think that is an important point you 
just brought up, so I want to hone in on it for a second. What 
is that difference in housing allowance? If you are looking at 
a traditional 4 year degree or a training program? We have got 
18 seconds.
    Ms. Devlin. I do not have the exact answer for that, but 
they are different. I know we have VA colleagues here who may 
be able to answer that more effectively. But it is versus the 
full-time rate, it is based on the difference between 
journeymen and trainee wages, from what I understand.
    Mr. McGarvey. Thank you very much.
    I yield back.
    Mr. Van Orden. Thank you, Mr. McGarvey.
    The chair now recognizes the gentleman from Arizona Mr. 
Crane, for 5 minutes.
    Mr. Crane. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    Mr. Garcia, there is a lot of discussion around the Veteran 
Improvement Commercial Driver's License Act of 2023 and whether 
the legislation as written would allow Commercial Driver's 
License (CDL) schools to establish a branch campus across state 
lines. Does VA interpret the legislation to allow schools to 
open branch campuses over state lines? If so, what safeguards 
are in place to ensure that the State Approving Agencies (SAAs) 
are still involved in the approval of these institutions?
    Mr. Garcia. Sure.
    The way the bill is written, if the branch follows the same 
curriculum as the main location, if you will, we definitely 
believe that SAAs ought to be involved. As I understand it, if 
it crosses state lines, that SAA at the other State would have 
to provide that approval for the location in the other State 
besides the main office.
    Mr. Crane. Thank you.
    Next question for you, Ms. Devlin. You were saying that the 
Department of Labor does not support 3738. Is that correct? 
Bill 3738.
    Ms. Devlin. Yes, sir.
    Mr. Crane. I believe you said the systems currently under 
Department of Labor cannot be duplicated elsewhere. Can you 
expand on that a little bit more?
    Ms. Devlin. Yes, sir.
    One of the examples I would give is the Office of the 
Solicitor, which has attorneys that specialize in employment 
protection law. That does not exist in the VA. The VA does have 
attorneys, they have their own system there, but it is not that 
area of expertise. That is one area that we would be lacking if 
we were moved to the VA. We also have other expertise related 
to employment protections with other agencies in DOL.
    The other piece that is important is we are part of the 
American workforce system. There are other services in that 
system that support the wraparound services that a veteran 
might need, you know, housing, food assistance, transportation, 
clothing, and things like that that the VA cannot offer.
    Also, again, as I mentioned before, that veterans who are 
not eligible for VA services are still eligible for our 
services in the American Job Center.
    Mr. Crane. Thank you very much. Appreciate it.
    I yield back.
    Mr. Van Orden. Thank you, Mr. Crane.
    The chair now recognizes Mrs. Ramirez from the great State 
of Illinois.
    Ms. Ramirez. Thank you, chairman, from the great State of 
Wisconsin.
    Mr. Van Orden. You get 6 minutes.
    Ms. Ramirez. Thank you. I am learning, I am learning.
    I want to thank the witnesses for being here today as well, 
from the many states that you come from.
    When I went back home during this August recess, I hosted 
Veterans Roundtables in my district. One of the prevailing 
concerns that was raised to me was the issue of housing and 
homelessness for the veterans in Illinois Third congressional 
District. This has been a long standing issue that traces far. 
When I was the executive director of a homeless shelter, I had 
the honor to serve many veterans who were experiencing 
homelessness. Having access to secure and stable housing, we 
know, right, we all agree, is critical for veterans and their 
families and ensuring they have the resources necessary to have 
a home is essential. Now, districts like mine, buying a home is 
becoming harder and harder. A home that would cost $300,000 now 
may cost $700,000, rents that used to be maybe $800 are now 
$1,800 for a one bedroom or a studio. Clearly, housing 
continues to be a big challenge for our veterans and their 
families.
    I am thinking about access to home ownership. Mr. Garcia, 
in regards to the proposal from my colleague, Ranking Member 
Levin, to retroactively waive home loan fees for veterans with 
service-connected disabilities, the testimony calls for a 
better process for service members to use the home loan program 
prior to discharge. Transitioning service members are given 
information about the loan program, my understanding, during 
transition. However, prior to that, what are the resources that 
are currently available for service members to know about the 
home loan programs?
    Mr. Garcia. Ma'am, can I ask Mr. Pamperin to take that one?
    Ms. Ramirez. Sure.
    Mr. Pamperin. Ma'am, the loan guarantee program is briefed 
out through TAP. As far as communications before that, a 
service member does have the ability to use the loan guarantee 
program. Specific communications related to that prior to, I 
would have to take back and talk with my colleagues in the loan 
guarantee program and provide you a better answer.
    Ms. Ramirez. Yes, I would appreciate that. I think it is 
really important that we have different avenues to ensure that 
our veterans have adequate information about what resources are 
available to them, and certainly this one being one of those.
    I want to shift a little. I have talked about housing, but 
the other priority for me here, as a member of this committee, 
has been to advocate for the importance of education and 
employment opportunities for veterans. Veterans who served our 
country deserve every single resource that is available to 
them. We cannot fulfill this promise to our veterans by 
compromising programs that have the potential to help veterans 
thrive while transitioning into civilian life.
    Ms. Devlin, this question is for you. You note in your 
testimony that the proposal to transfer the DOL VETS to VA 
would remove subject matter experts from DOL involved with 
administering programs outside of VA's scope. Could you 
elaborate which program specifically you are referring to?
    Ms. Devlin. Yes, ma'am. Thank you for the question.
    Really, all the programs. However, what I think is 
important to note is for the protections, the employer 
protections for National Guard and Reserve members, when they 
have an issue and they have a case that we are investigating 
and researching, we have investigators who specialize in that. 
I think this bill would move those investigators over to VA, 
but what the bill does not move is the Solicitor's Office, 
which is where we have our attorneys that provide that extra 
expertise so that when we have a complicated case, we have 
attorneys that can help us decipher and make sure we do 
everything in our power to protect that Guard or Reservist 
employment rights and get their rights restored. That is one 
example.
    The American Job Center and the Jobs for Veterans' State 
Grant is another example of an organization that we operate 
that is integrated into an American Job Center that serves all 
veterans and all American citizens. Pulling it out of 
Department of Labor and moving it to VA would certainly 
restrict the access to those veterans, because now they would 
be going to the American Job Center without that advocacy of 
somebody from DOL VETS being able to connect them and making 
sure that they get priority of services in that system.
    Ms. Ramirez. Got it. Thank you.
    I have 14 seconds left, so I will ask a question, and it is 
yes or no so that I do not get cutoff by the chair.
    Will this transfer cause a disruption in veteran services? 
Yes or no?
    Ms. Devlin. Yes, ma'am, it would.
    Ms. Ramirez. Got it. Thank you.
    Chairman, I yield back.
    Mr. Van Orden. Wow. Right on time.
    In accordance with committee rules, I ask unanimous consent 
that Representative James from Michigan be permitted to 
participate in today's subcommittee hearing.
    Without objection.
    The chair now recognizes Mr. Mrvan from the state of 
Indiana.
    Mr. Mrvan. Ms. Devlin, in 2015 a similar bill was 
introduced to move vets from the DOL to VA due to the concerns 
about VETS performance and outcomes for veterans. Has the 
performance of VETS programs improved in recent years? What are 
you doing to measure the customer or veteran satisfaction?
    Ms. Devlin. Thank you for the question.
    Yes, we are actually doing a lot to measure satisfaction. 
In fact, what I will highlight is for the Transition Assistance 
Program and the employment pieces of that that we administer, 
we have the highest satisfaction rate. We do that because we 
listen to the customer experience. We not only have surveys 
that ask specific questions of our transitioning service 
members about their experience in the class, we ask them for 
open text comments. We go through all of those open text 
comments, and we look for patterns and we look for things that 
we can change. Every time we do that, we learn something more 
about how to make the program better. I will tell you our 
latest survey results, 95 percent of service members that went 
through our part of TAP said it enhanced their confidence in 
their transition.
    We also had the Employment Navigator program, which is new 
as of 2021. Of the service members that work with a Navigator, 
one on one, 98 percent said that the Navigator either met or 
exceeded their expectations. That is a pilot program which we 
are making a permanent program. It is at several military 
installations.
    We have done everything in our power to make sure we listen 
to the service member experience. We recently kicked off a 
Customer experience initiative in our Jobs for Veterans State 
Grant to make sure we understand, because the employment 
landscape has changed, how people look for jobs has changed. We 
want to make sure we are meeting that service member or veteran 
where they are at.
    We have also--and this is just very fresh--started a 
customer experience initiative in our Homeless Veterans' 
Reintegration Program. Customer experience is very important to 
DOL VETS.
    Mr. Mrvan. In your written testimony you alluded to the 
multiple touch points that you have in the American workforce 
system and in the Department of Labor to support veterans. Can 
this network be replicated if you are no longer within the DOL?
    Ms. Devlin. No, sir. It cannot be replicated in the 
Department of Veterans Affairs. That infrastructure does not 
exist there.
    Mr. Mrvan. Okay, thank you.
    With that, I yield back.
    Mr. Van Orden. Thank you, Mr. Mrvan.
    In accordance with committee rules, I ask unanimous consent 
that Representative Budzinski from Illinois and Representative 
Moylan from Guam be permitted to participate in today's 
subcommittee hearing.
    Without objection so ordered.
    The chair now recognizes Mr. Edwards from North Carolina 
for 5 minutes.
    Mr. Edwards. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and ranking member 
and committee. I appreciate you allowing me the opportunity to 
wave onto this committee. It certainly is an honor, even though 
it will only be for just a few short minutes, to share my 
support for H.R. 2830, the Veterans Improvement Commercial 
Driver's License Act of 2023, which is a bill that I am leading 
to increase veteran access to timely, quality commercial 
driver's license training, to increase the truck driver 
workforce pool, and to help reduce the strain on our Nation's 
supply chain that is currently worsened by the severe truck 
driver shortage.
    Across the United States, the trucking industry is facing 
more than a 78,000 driver shortage, which some estimate could 
reach 160,000 by 2030. The shortage is complicated in part by 
burdensome red tape restricting veteran access to commercial 
driver's license training using their GI Bill benefits. 
Trucking shortages have a ripple effect, I know that you 
realize, through our Nation's supply chains, worsening 
bottlenecks and delaying delivery times. My bill seeks to 
reduce the strain on our Nation's supply chain and bolster 
workforce development among veterans by eliminating the red 
tape currently inhibiting veteran access to CDL training 
programs and increasing the pool of eligible truck drivers.
    Currently, roughly 8,400 commercial driving programs are 
approved for use by eligible veterans under the GI Bill. A 
statutory 2 year rule under the GI Bill prevents these training 
facilities from accepting GI benefits at secondary locations 
for 2 years. This burdensome red tape has excluded many 
veterans from attending closer secondary branch training 
facilities that offer the exact same curriculum as a pre-
approved facility. It has been forcing veterans to travel 
further or wait 2 years to pursue their CDL.
    My bill would exempt new branches of pre-approved training 
facilities from the statutory 2 year wait to accept veterans 
benefits and protects the integrity of the GI Bill by requiring 
that all secondary locations submit an annual report verifying 
their curriculum is identical to the primary location.
    This bill is a common sense reform with wide organizational 
support that will reduce unnecessary roadblocks to veteran 
training and workforce opportunities. I look forward to working 
with the House Veterans Affairs Committee to move this forward.
    If I may, I have one question for Mr. Garcia. I remain 
grateful for the Department of Veterans Affairs' support of 
this bill. That said, concerns have been raised that the bill's 
language does not clearly require the secondary facility to be 
within the same state as the primary facility. My intent was to 
ensure that this exemption only applies to facilities within 
the same state. Do you know if the Department has any concerns 
with their interpretation of this specific language?
    Mr. Garcia. Sir, so first of all, if it is good for the 
veterans, good for the economy, and we still have that state 
approving, agency authority and oversight are the main concerns 
that we have. As you say, if that branch with the same 
curriculum is within the same state, we do not see any issues 
there.
    Mr. Edwards. Would the Department prefer that it only apply 
within state lines versus nationwide?
    Mr. Ruhlman. I would not say that we have a preference 
either way. We would gladly carry out that law as passed. We 
think there are probably less concerns if it is in State 
because the same state approving agency would be approving both 
locations and therefore would already be familiar with the 
business practices and the financial stability of the main 
campus, which would probably be advantageous.
    Mr. Edwards. Thank you. Thank you all for being here.
    Mr. Chair, ranking member, again, thanks for allowing me 
the time to be here.
    I yield back.
    Mr. Van Orden. Thank you, Mr. Edwards.
    The chair now recognizes Mr. James from the State of 
Michigan.
    Mr. James. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, for allowing me this 
opportunity to speak on behalf of my district and my Nation.
    We are all here because we believe very, very strongly that 
we have a job to serve those who have served us.
    I am here to speak and seek a little bit of guidance for my 
H.R. 3816, the Veterans Entry to Apprenticeship Act. As a 
combat veteran and a former business leader, I recognize two 
gaps that we have in this Nation. There is a skills gap with 
people who are able to address the jobs of now and in the 
future. We need to do more with apprenticeship to allow the 
Veterans Affairs to recognize pre-apprenticeship programs and 
treat them as apprenticeship programs to lower the rungs, to 
increase access for veterans. There is also not just the 
professional side, but the purpose side. We are facing a 
hopelessness crisis in this Nation, and veterans are bearing 
the brunt of this and enabling additional resources for 
veterans to pursue the American dream without dismissing the 
reality of the cost to the American taxpayers are a part of the 
balance that we need to achieve.
    I want to thank everyone, particularly the chairman, for 
allowing me to seek your guidance and advice on how best to do 
this on the veterans' entry to apprenticeship.
    I would like to echo the sentiments of my colleague, Ms. 
Ramirez, mentioning the criticality of housing. One of the 
components of this bill would allow veterans who are entering 
this pre-apprenticeship program to be able to allocate some of 
these resources to critical needs, such as housing and 
transportation. The Congressional Budget Office (CBO) has 
already scored this at $60 million--with an M--$60 million over 
the next 10 years. Do you have any advice for how we can 
proceed with lower or level cost and how long the housing 
benefits should last, because housing is critical.
    Mr. Garcia. Sir, there are roughly 18,000 currently in the 
apprenticeship program, for the registered apprenticeship 
program. Our concerns are that in the pre-apprenticeship 
program, that is not registered. That are our concerns that we 
have that it kind of levels the playing field for veterans that 
would use and burn up their benefits. For a pre-apprenticeship 
program the concern is perhaps they do not have the same 
measurable outcomes from Department of Labor. It is a concern 
that we have to even accept this as an entitlement.
    Mr. James. Understanding that there is a need and 
understanding that additional draws on resources might be a 
concern, what are some things that we can do to address this? 
One of the things that we looked at is state approving agencies 
making sure that the programs that are approved meet the 
standards that are required for folks to be able to matriculate 
into jobs that pay well and actually helping veterans and not 
another government grift. Are there ways that we can make sure 
that we have this accountability down to the lowest level, but 
also making sure that we are able to help veterans where they 
need it the most, most notably with housing in this case?
    Mr. Garcia. Sir, we would welcome to work with the 
committee and you on this initiative, but you are right on 
target, we would definitely want the state approving agencies 
to have that same authority and oversight to make sure that we 
have quality programs. That would address the major concern 
that we would have.
    Mr. James. This is a bipartisan bill, this is not a 
messaging bill. This is critical to the health of our Nation. 
Echoing your sentiments, Mr. Garcia, if it is good for the 
veteran, if it is good for the economy, then we are generally 
heading in the right direction.
    We also need to make sure that we get it through the House, 
we get it through the Senate, and something that can be passed. 
The fact that it is bipartisan helps. Working very closely with 
you and your colleagues and me and mine, we welcome the 
opportunity.
    One last thing I would like to mention is, as we move 
forward, if there is anything that we see that can improve this 
bill, I just want to State for the record, Mr. Chairman, that I 
am open and willing to make whatever tweaks are necessary to 
help our veterans.
    With that, I want to thank you each for your time and your 
service.
    I yield the rest of my time, Mr. Chairman.
    Mr. Van Orden. Thank you, Mr. James.
    The chair now recognizes Ms. Mace from South Carolina for 5 
minutes.
    Ms. Mace. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Ruhlman, the 
Government Accountability Office report from September 2022 
showed the Edith Nourse Rogers STEM Scholarship had an 
alarmingly low participation rate since its inception, raising 
concerns about barriers, preventing beneficiaries from 
accessing the benefit. To your knowledge, has the VA done an 
extensive analysis of those barriers preventing veterans from 
using the benefit?
    Mr. Ruhlman. VA is looking----
    Ms. Mace. Is that a yes or a no? Have you guys done 
anything yet?
    Mr. Ruhlman. It is in progress.
    Ms. Mace. Okay. Thank you.
    Would it be beneficial to have more information about the 
barriers, in your opinion?
    Mr. Ruhlman. More information is always better.
    Ms. Mace. How long will it take? How long have you been 
working on trying to get more information and how long will it 
take to gather?
    Mr. Ruhlman. I cannot answer that right now, but I can 
get----
    Ms. Mace. Why cannot you answer it?
    Mr. Ruhlman. I do not personally run the Edith Nourse 
Rogers STEM Scholarship.
    Ms. Mace. Okay.
    Mr. Ruhlman. We can get that answer. We are aware of the 
study and the barriers, and we are looking at them.
    Ms. Mace. Okay, super. Thank you.
    The Government Accountability Office (GAO) report also 
highlighted the analysis the VA did of those who were denied 
the benefit was very limited. Is not it true that this analysis 
did not include denial reasons for both race or gender?
    Mr. Ruhlman. Could you rephrase the question?
    Ms. Mace. Is not it true this analysis did not include 
denial reasons for either race or gender?
    Mr. Ruhlman. We would not have denied them because of race 
or gender. I am not certain whether the demographics were 
associated with that.
    Ms. Mace. Okay.
    My office has worked closely with Wounded Warrior Project 
to come up with some solutions based off data they have found 
in their own Wounded Warriors Women Warriors Report. Women 
veterans are the fastest growing population of veterans, but 
they focus also on unique challenges when transitioning. The 
unemployment rate among Wounded Warrior Women Warriors is 
higher than most male warriors at 10 percent, compared to 6.3 
percent of their male counterparts. Census data suggests that 
only 27 percent of women are employed in STEM fields in the 
U.S. workforce, but comprise almost half of the overall 
workforce today.
    I look forward to working with you and the VA and my 
colleagues here today on this committee on this important 
legislation, to ensure that we are addressing the unique needs 
of each and every veteran.
    Thank you and I yield back. Mr. Chairman.
    Mr. Van Orden. Thank you, Ms. Mace.
    In accordance with the committee rules, I ask unanimous 
consent that Representative Kiggans from Virginia be permitted 
to participate in today's subcommittee hearing.
    Without objection.
    The chair now recognizes Ms. Budzinski from the great state 
of Illinois.
    Ms. Budzinski. Thank you, Chairman Van Orden and Ranking 
Member Levin for giving me the opportunity to speak on my bill 
today. I very much appreciate it.
    H.R. 5780, the Veterans in STEM Expansion Act. Veterans put 
their lives on the lines to serve our country, yet they are 
still facing significant barriers to employment and educational 
opportunities upon returning. According to the Journal of 
Veteran Studies, over 200,000 service members transition to 
civilian life each year and among their top struggles is 
finding a job and getting connected to educational 
opportunities. I believe everyone in the room can agree with me 
when I say that our veterans deserve better.
    Congress took positive steps when it passed the Forever GI 
Bill in 2017, which brought much needed changes to veterans 
educational benefits. Part of this major legislation included 
enacting the Edith Nourse Rogers STEM scholarship. Since 
enactment, thousands of veterans have used the scholarship to 
pursue STEM degrees after exhausting their post 9/11 GI Bill 
benefits.
    Though this has been great progress, student veterans have 
voiced their frustrations with some of the very limiting 
requirements. Additionally, a 2022 GAO report highlighted some 
of the barriers student veterans have faced when applying for 
the scholarship. Barriers have included meeting the credit hour 
requirements, exhausting GI Bill benefits before being able to 
apply, and the inability for student veterans to use 
scholarship toward graduate school classes. The Veterans in 
STEM Expansion Act would modify all three of those levers by 
reducing the minimum number of credit hours required to 45 
hours. It would also allow student veterans to apply for 
scholarship even if they still have GI benefits left. The 
scholarship would only kick in after recipients have exhausted 
GI Bill benefits. Last, my bill would allow student veterans to 
use the scholarship toward graduate school classes.
    The changes proposed in this bill are straightforward ways 
to improve access to this important scholarship for our student 
veterans and ease the transition for those pursuing a higher 
education.
    I am committed to working with my colleagues, the VA and 
Veterans Service Organizations (VSOs) on my bill to ensure we 
are all doing all that we can to expand STEM education for all 
veterans. I do appreciate Congresswoman Cherfilus-McCormick and 
Congressman McGarvey for already agreeing to co-sponsor this 
bill.
    Thank you for the time. I appreciate it, chairman.
    Mr. Van Orden. Thank you, Ms. Budzinski.
    The chair now recognizes my friend from Guam, Mr. Moylan, 
and we wish you a hafa adai, sir
    Mr. Moylan. Hafa adai, Mr. Chairman. Thank you, Chairman 
Van Orden, Ranking Member Levin, and members of the 
subcommittee for allowing me to wave on to discuss this 
important bill that helps our veterans in Guam.
    I appreciate the current panel and their discussion about 
the bill and their support, but I would also like to extend my 
gratitude to our witnesses in the next panel, respectively, the 
Organizations of Disabled American Veterans (DAV), Student 
Veterans of America (SVA), and the Veterans of Foreign War 
VFW), for supporting our mission and endorsing our bill.
    I am proud to represent a district that is filled with 
patriots who have served our country with dignity, honor, and 
respect. We must give them our sincerest gratitude and respect 
for their service. Being a veteran in Guam is not easy. From 
long waiting times at both VA clinics and hospitals in Guam to 
lack of complex veteran healthcare services, Guam's veterans 
have been left in the dark for way too long, especially our 
disabled veterans. Currently, there is a program called the 
Adaptive Vehicle Grant Program that provides $25,600 to 
eligible veterans so that they can purchase an adaptive 
vehicle. My bill, the Deliver for Veterans Act, will improve 
this program by allowing the VA to put funds from each 
veteran's grant toward shipping costs. To ship a vehicle to 
Guam it costs close to $4,000. Under the current program, 
veterans are unable to use their grant to pay for shipping 
costs. This is a major cost that negatively affects our 
veterans in remote areas, like Mr. Crane's district and my 
district of Guam. With this high transportation costs, only 
those who can afford to ship the vehicle will do so.
    This small fix in the program will allow more veterans to 
take advantage of this program that helps them in everyday 
life.
    Again, I want to thank the subcommittee for allowing me to 
wave in on today's hearings, and I ask for their support in 
delivering for our disabled veterans.
    Mr. Chair, I would like to waive any additional time I have 
if I can have additional remarks regarding their support for 
this measure please.
    Mr. Pamperin. Good afternoon, sir, and I appreciate the 
question.
    VA does support this legislation. It is the right thing to 
do. Currently, we do have the ability to cover adaptive 
automobiles, just not the shipping. As you were discussing, 
that is an additional financial burden. We know that in doing 
research that the average shipping cost is about $1,650. 
Obviously, Guam and some more remote places are going to be 
higher, but even just with the average shipping cost, that 
actually would stay below the average grant rate. Right now, 
the average grant is a little over $23,000. Just adding in that 
average shipping cost would still be below the max grant. It is 
the right thing to do and that is why we support the 
legislation, sir.
    Mr. Moylan. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    I yield back.
    Mr. Van Orden. Thank you, Mr. Moylan.
    The chair now recognizes the gentlelady from Virginia, Ms. 
Kiggans.
    Ms. Kiggans. Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. Thank you for 
letting me sit on your meeting today to talk about my bill, 
H.R. 5956, the GI Improvement Act.
    I just wanted to briefly describe it. In exchange for 
serving our country veterans get a chance to pursue almost any 
post-secondary education they want, whether it be for college, 
graduate school, or training. I was able to use my GI Bill to 
go back to nursing school. We are currently using my husband's 
GI Bill to provide education for one of our children. It is a 
great benefit that we need to be very protective of and make 
sure our veterans are able to utilize use it to the best 
possible extent that they can.
    The GI Bill has been life changing for millions of our 
Nation's former service members. In 2022, more than 800,000 
veterans had been using their GI Bill benefits. Unfortunately, 
understanding the benefits of the bill can be incredibly 
complicated and overwhelming. The GI Bill comparison tool is 
something that we have now. It is a vital part of navigating 
these benefits. It is used widely by veterans. It is a web 
based portal that is supposed to provide just a simple, easy 
way to access the different information to compare universities 
for our veterans. Every school who accepts the benefits offers 
this GI Bill comparison tool to their prospective students, but 
it has not been updated for quite some time.
    Additionally, many different Federal agencies collect data 
that I think would be useful for veterans to know, including 
graduation rates, student loan default rates, and others. My 
bill seeks to increase transparency and centralize this useful 
information for veterans within this already existing tool and 
would require VA to work with other agencies and key department 
stakeholders to continually update the tool as more information 
becomes available. Some of the new information that would be 
included on this portal would be retention rates, transfer 
rates, graduation rates, credentials, certifications, available 
average duration of degrees, student loan default rates, 
student loan repayment rates, and more. Provide a lot more 
information when veterans are comparing just different schools 
that they may use their GI Bill benefit at.
    By providing this additional information, my Bill allows 
those seeking to use their GI Bill benefits to obtain education 
to make the most informed choice possible. I introduced this 
bill to improve transparency and provide more resources for 
those looking to use GI Bill benefits so that veterans can be 
well informed when deciding how to use them. It will help our 
veterans to be well informed, and it will increase educational 
opportunities for our Nation's heroes.
    Thank you so much, and I yield back.
    Mr. Van Orden. Thank you, Ms. Kiggans.
    Thank you. The witnesses are now excused. I hope you all 
stay around for the second panel.
    Mr. Van Orden. Yes, well, on our second panel we will hear 
from the following witnesses, Ms. Keenan, the deputy director 
at National Legislative Service for the Veterans of Foreign 
Wars, Mr. Barefield, assistant national legislative director at 
Disabled American Veterans, Ms. Barlet, vice President of 
Government Affairs at Student Veterans of America, Mr. Wescott, 
legislative director at the National Association of State 
Approving Agencies, and Mr. Hazard, Veterans in Piping program 
manager for the United States Association of Journeymen and 
Apprentices of Plumbing and Pipe Fitting Industry of the United 
States and Canada.
    I would like to welcome our witnesses to the second panel. 
Will you please stand and raise your right hand?
    [Witnesses sworn]
    Mr. Van Orden. Let the record reflect that all witnesses 
have answered in the affirmative.
    Ms. Keenan, you are now recognized for 5 minutes to deliver 
your testimony.

                  STATEMENT OF KRISTINA KEENAN

    Ms. Keenan. Chairman Van Orden, Ranking Member Levin, and 
members of the subcommittee, on behalf of the men and women of 
the Veterans of Foreign Wars of the United States and its 
auxiliary, thank you for the opportunity to provide our remarks 
on legislation pending before the subcommittee.
    The VFW's views on all the bills can be found in my written 
testimony. I will take the opportunity to highlight a few.
    The VFW supports the Expanding Access for Online Veteran 
Student Act to increase the monthly housing stipend to the 
national average for veterans who take summer courses online. 
Currently, the monthly housing allowance for online courses is 
half the national average, which is simply not enough for many 
student veterans. If they take courses during the summer, even 
online, they should not experience a significant decrease in 
their housing benefit that could cause them financial hardship. 
While this is a step in the right direction, the VFW would like 
for student veterans to receive at least the full national 
average rate for housing, even if they are not enrolled in 
degree programs conducted online for some or all semesters. 
Online education has adapted and grown since the COVID-19 
pandemic, much like working from home, has changed the work 
model. Student veterans, who are often non traditional 
students, continue to require housing assistance to 
successfully pursue higher education, even when enrolled in 
online programs.
    The VFW supports the Veterans Education Transparency and 
Training Act. This would modify the requirement for schools to 
provide a personalized shopping sheet with specific and 
individual information about costs and financial assistance. 
The new language would give schools more flexibility by 
lessening the barrier to receiving VA education funding. The 
legislation would also create a single VA website for school 
officials to find current training. Schools have told us this 
would be helpful because when they receive staff turnover, 
updates sent only by email get lost over time. We suggest 
adding to Section 1A that all policy and guidance updates be 
included on this VA website, as these are equally important as 
training. We also recommend that VA be required to update the 
information in a timely manner, because having a website with 
old information is equally ineffective.
    The VFW supports the draft bill to waive the VA home loan 
fee for service members with a service-connected disability who 
apply for the loan before receiving their disability rating 
from VA. Current housing market uncertainty has created an 
environment for service members where they may not be able to 
wait until VA has completed processing their disability claim 
before finalizing the purchase of a home when the right 
opportunity arises. This proposal would ensure that service 
members who have started their VA claim and conducted a pre-
discharge exam could be reimbursed for the home loan fee if 
they receive a disability rating after purchasing their home. 
We suggest one key change, to replace the pre-discharge date 
with the effective Date. The intent to file establishes the 
claim's effective date, and it never changes, unlike exams, 
which can be scheduled and rescheduled. Using the effective 
date would avoid any ambiguity and would ensure that service 
members retain the earliest date for eligibility.
    The VFW would also like to ensure that if this proposal 
becomes law, that veterans have the flexibility to choose what 
is in their best financial interest. We would hope the options 
to pay down the principal of the mortgage or to receive 
reimbursement from VA would both be available as some service 
members pay these fees out of pocket.
    Last, the VFW supports the draft bill to modify the 
requirements of the Edith Nourse Rogers STEM scholarship. We 
support amending the specific credit hours required for 
eligibility in addition to extending this benefit to graduate 
degrees. Barriers for students to utilize this scholarship 
should be lessened, as we want veterans to pursue and succeed 
in high demand fields like STEM.
    Chairman Van Orden, Ranking Member Levin, thank you for the 
opportunity to provide my remarks. I look forward to answering 
any questions you or the committee members may have.
    Thank you.

    [The Prepared Statement Of Kristina Keenan Appears In The 
Appendix]

    Mr. Van Orden. Thank you, Ms. Keenan. The written statement 
of Ms. Keenan will be entered into the hearing record. Mr. 
Barefield, you are now recognized for 5 minutes to deliver your 
testimony.

                 STATEMENT OF MARQUIS BAREFIELD

    Mr. Barefield. Thank you. Chairman Van Orden, Ranking 
Member Levin, and members of the subcommittee, thank you for 
inviting DAV to testify at today's hearing of the Subcommittee 
on Economic Opportunity to consider the 13 pieces of 
legislation up for discussion this afternoon. My written 
statement has been submitted for the record, and I will now 
highlight a few bills that are important to DAV and our 
members.
    In my early days after being medically retired from the 
United States Army, I can speak personally about the 
difficulties that I experienced when I left the military more 
than 25 years ago, when TAP was in its infancy stages and 
mental health services were not part of the program. Dealing 
with the pain of my service-connected disabilities and the 
uncertainty of what my life was going to be like after the 
military, I suffered from depression and anxiety. I could have 
benefited from having access to some type of mental health 
services. For example, H.R. 3722 and the amendment in the 
nature of a substitute to it would provide valuable mental 
health services to transitioning service members, veterans and 
their families. It is important that transitioning service 
members and veterans fully understand the importance of having 
mental health services available to them. I know and understand 
what some of the current transitioning service members and 
veterans are going through that have lost the sense of 
community that the military hails for them. The men, women and 
families who are going through this transition can benefit from 
knowing that valuable mental health services are available to 
them during and after the TAPs classes.
    DAV supports H.R. 5785, the STEM scholarship program. By 
broadening the eligibility and decreasing the number of 
semester or quarter hours required to become eligible for this 
scholarship, this will increase the number of students who wish 
to pursue careers in this very important area. Employees that 
have STEM careers make on average $93,000 per year, which is 
substantially higher than the national average.
    DAV supports H.R. 2830 as it would help ease the pathway 
for veterans to acquire a commercial driver's license, helping 
to address the trucking shortage, employ veterans, and 
strengthen our supply chains. This legislation would ensure CDL 
schools that offer courses at new branches do not have to wait 
2 years if the primary institution has been approved by the VA 
and state approving agencies to receive GI Bill benefits. Many 
former military personnel have experienced driving large 
vehicles during their military careers. According to the 
American Trucking Association, there is currently a shortage of 
80,000 truck drivers. There is a high demand for truck drivers 
across the country, with some positions paying nearly $100,000 
per year. It is estimated that 8,400 commercial driving 
programs have been approved for use by eligible veterans under 
the GI Bill. This legislation would create unique opportunities 
for service disabled veterans to obtain a CDL and overcome 
their employment barriers.
    Finally, Mr. Chairman, H.R. 3738 would establish a fourth 
administration within VA dedicated to creating economic 
opportunities for veterans, their dependents, and survivors. 
This would increase the visibility and accountability of all 
veteran education and employment related programs, anticipating 
veterans long-term needs not only for health care and 
disability compensation, but also for education and employment 
opportunities. A fresh new approach is required.
    Given all the responsibilities of VBA and their focusing on 
claims and appeals processing, other programs have taken a 
backseat. For example, the Veterans Readiness and Employment 
Program started working on an electronic case management system 
for vocational rehabilitation counselors. However, after 9 
years, 3 failed attempts for a digital platform, and over $20 
million spent, VR and E still does not have a digital case 
management system. DAV believes that the failures of the VR and 
E case management system is indicative of a lack of focus, 
direction, as well as a constant change of administrations. 
This is one example of many why we believe VA needs a fourth 
administration. H.R. 3738 would be a huge step in the right 
direction to solving this problem.
    This concludes my testimony, and I am happy to answer any 
questions you or members of the subcommittee may have.

    [The Prepared Statement Of Marquis Barefield Appears In The 
Appendix]

    Mr. Van Orden. Thank you, Mr. Barefield. The written 
statement of Mr. Barefield will be entered into the hearing 
record. Let us not do that again, please. Thank you.
    Ms. Barlet, you are now recognized for 5 minutes to deliver 
your testimony. Seriously? I just said let us not do that 
again. Is it yours? Yes. There you go. Adapt. Overcome.

                   STATEMENT OF TAMMY BARLET

    Ms. Barlet. Chairman Van Orden, Ranking Member Levin and 
members of the subcommittee, thank you for inviting Student 
Veterans of America to testify before you today and always, we 
appreciate the opportunity to share our views on the bills 
which will directly impact student veterans, military connected 
students, their families, and survivors.
    We encourage the subcommittee to review our written 
testimony for the detailed discussion on the education related 
legislation for today's hearing.
    My verbal remarks will focus on two bills.
    I will begin by addressing the Expanded Access for Online 
Veteran Students Act. The prevalence of online classes in 
higher education has skyrocketed in the last year, in the 
recent years. This trend is prior to the pandemic, but the 
forced shift online learning during COVID led many institutions 
to invest in methods to offer their classes online. Many 
institutions, including a growing number of flagship public and 
nonprofit universities, continue to increase their online 
courses offering, which appeals to the broader range of 
students, including post traditional students, while juggling 
other responsibilities like family and jobs. Institutions are 
also exercising a new discretion in how they offer their 
courses, sometimes choosing only to offer certain courses 
during particular terms. That us the important piece for GI 
Bill students and their MHA.
    We have reached an era in higher education where not only 
otherwise in person GI Bill students are safe from the negative 
financial consequences of the outdated and misinformed policy 
of reducing MHA for online learners. I am going to tell you a 
story about one of the SVA's incredible chapter leaders, Josh 
Jones. Josh is an SVA Veteran of the Year, and former chapter 
leader of Loyola University in Chicago. Some of you may be 
familiar with Josh. He was recognized during the Joint VSO and 
Military Service Organization (MSO) hearing before the House 
and Senate Committees on Veterans Affairs this past March, and 
it was shortly time before then Josh flagged to SVA this issue 
that ultimately led to this bill. Josh and some of his peers 
soon found out that their institution was only offering the 
classes they needed online over the summer and quickly found 
themselves enrolled fully online and only eligible for the 
reduced MHA rate for online learners. This slashed their 
housing allowance by well over $1,600 a month, leaving them 
grappling with how to make that difference over the span of the 
3 month term. Josh recognized how fundamentally unfair this was 
and, with the support of SVA, spearheaded an effort to bring a 
legislative fix to Congress so other military affiliated 
students would not have to experience the same hardship. In 
March of this year, members of the subcommittee heard from Josh 
and SVA about this very issue.
    We are proud to appear before you today and announce our 
strong support for this legislation. While SVA would have 
preferred the bill fully harmonize MHA rates for online 
learners, there is no denying that represents a substantial 
improvement over the current law that will roughly put an extra 
$1,000 in the pockets of online GI Bill learners over the 
summer. This bill represents a pivotal first step toward the 
ultimate goal of securing full MHA for online GI Bill students.
    SVA thanks subcommittee staff for their work on this 
legislation, and we applaud Representatives Ciscomani, Van 
Orden, Stansbury, and Stanton for their bipartisan leadership 
on this issue.
    Last, I will turn to the Student Veterans Work Study 
Modernization Act. VA Work Study is an invaluable program 
providing participants with critical financial support during 
their studies, but the program limits eligibility to those who 
are enrolled at least 3/4 time. According to SVA's most recent 
survey, roughly 50 percent of our respondents have children and 
approximately 20 percent identify as single parents. For most 
of these folks, enrolling at a rate that is less than 3/4 time 
might be the best fit for them and their families, but this 
cuts them off from the program. The bill before you today will 
address this issue by establishing a pilot program that expands 
the eligibility of those enrolled at least half time. The bill 
will also require VA to collect and report important new 
information about how VA's Work Study is serving student 
veterans. This legislation is just one part of the larger 
effort to modernize VA Work Study.
    We commend this bill's sponsor, Congressman Cartwright, and 
his leadership in the complementary and comprehensive VA Work 
Study Improvement Act. That bill was first conceived by a 
former VFW SVA fellow, John Randolph, and would make critical 
requirements to the VA Work Study so that it can perfectly 
serve its participants.
    This concludes my verbal remarks. Thank you for your time 
and attention, and I look forward to your questions.

    [The Prepared Statement Of Tammy Barlet Appears In The 
Appendix]

    Mr. Van Orden. Thank you, Ms. Barlet. The written statement 
of Ms. Barlet will be entered into the hearing record.
    Mr. Wescott, you are now recognized for 5 minutes to 
deliver your testimony.

                  STATEMENT OF JOSEPH WESCOTT

    Mr. Wescott. Chairman Van Orden, Ranking Member Levin and 
members of the Subcommittee on Economic Opportunity, I am 
pleased to appear before you today on behalf of the 52 member 
state agencies of the National Association of State Approving 
Agencies (NASAA). I appreciate the opportunity to provide 
comments to this committee about the legislation pertaining to 
veterans education and training.
    H.R. 2830, the Veteran Improvement Commercial Driver 
License Act, while well meaning, causes NASAA great concern in 
its present form. As drafted, this bill sweeps away the 
protections provided for veterans under the 2 year rule for 
private and not for profit non college degree (NCD) 
institutions. That rule requires that these educational 
institutions must be in existence and approved for at least 2 
years by other necessary state regulatory authorities. The 
institution must also have successfully offered the program for 
approval for that same period. This is an important safeguard 
preventing an NCD institution, such as a truck driving school, 
from gaining approval without demonstrating a measure of 
quality and stability in its continuous operation.
    This bill as presently drafted only requires that an 
institution offer the same curriculum as a previously SA 
approved institution anywhere in the Nation and has met the 
requirements for licensure to apply for approval. When we 
approve a program for approval, particularly at a new location, 
curriculum is only one factor we review. We also carefully 
evaluate instructor qualifications, administrations, equipment, 
policies and procedures, and the technical ability of the 
location to administer the program. We do this to ensure that 
only programs that demonstrate quality educational outcomes for 
students are approved. To determine program quality, it is 
important that we have some record of success, such as 
graduation rates or job placement, to review and evaluate. 
NASAA respectfully suggests that this legislation be amended so 
that the institutions which apply for a waiver from the 
requirements of the 2 year rule must be within the same state 
as the initial campus upon which the institution bases its 
application.
    Also, we strongly suggest that the legislation provides 
that the institutions must show a history of having 
successfully taught the program at that location for a set 
period of time, preferably 1 year, but certainly not less than 
6 months. We oppose this bill in its present form.
    The Transparency for Student Veterans Act of 2023, this 
would allow student veterans to make informed choices about 
which schools and programs would be the best fit for them. It 
provides them the additional information to do that. We 
certainly support that bill.
    H.R. 3816 the Veterans Entry to Apprenticeship Act, while 
we certainly agree with the purpose of this bill, NASAA 
suggests that safeguards be added to protect veterans enrolled 
in these programs. For instance, we believe that any pre-
apprenticeship program applying for GI Bill benefits should 
meet the standards found in U.S. Department of Labor issued 
Training and Employment Notice 1212. Likewise, we would like to 
see these programs demonstrate a record of successfully placing 
veterans into a registered apprenticeship program. Most 
importantly, we feel they must be approved by a state approving 
agency. We support this bill, but with suggested amendments.
    H.R. 5914 addresses the need for veterans to seamlessly 
access their hard earned education benefits to facilitate a 
successful transition to civilian life. This legislation amends 
the requirement for a shopping sheet to state that SAAs will 
only disapprove programs when facilities fail to provide 
certain forms to the maximum extent possible.
    Also, this legislation requires a centralized communication 
platform for improved communication between VA and SCOs. NASAA 
believes this new language will ensure veterans have access to 
quality programs by providing flexibility to institutions such 
as police academies, truck driving schools, and other approved 
NCD institutions, while still providing adequate safeguards for 
veterans and their families. We strongly support this bill.
    Mr. Chairman, today, SAAs throughout this great Nation are 
diligently working to protect the quality and integrity of the 
GI Bill and to ensure that our veterans and their families have 
unfettered access to quality training and education programs.
    I thank you again for this opportunity. I look forward to 
your questions.

    [The Prepared Statement Of Joseph Wescott Appears In The 
Appendix]

    Mr. Van Orden. Thank you, Mr. Wescott. The written 
statement of Mr. Wescott will be entered into the hearing 
record.
    Before I recognize Mr. Hazard, I want to thank you for your 
persistence. I know that this has been a hassle to get you here 
and I do appreciate it. We are very thankful that you are able 
to make it.
    Mr. Hazard. Thank you, sir.
    Mr. Van Orden. You know, how many times did it take now? A 
couple. Our House is more in order and we appreciate you being 
here.
    With that, I recognize you for 5 minutes to deliver your 
testimony.

                  STATEMENT OF MICHAEL HAZARD

    Mr. Hazard. Good afternoon, Chairman Van Orden and members 
of the committee. My name is Mike Hazard and I am employed by 
the United Association of Journeymen and Apprentices of the 
Plumbing and Pipe Fitting Industry of the United States and 
Canada, which we typically just refer to as UA.
    As Program Manager of the UA's Veterans and Piping Training 
Program, or VIP Program, I want to thank the committee for 
giving me the opportunity today to share the successes we have 
had at the VIP program in helping transitioning servicemen and 
women prepare for a career in the plumbing and pipe fitting 
industries, and to offer the UA's views on several bills 
currently being considered by this committee.
    First, I would like to briefly share some information about 
my background and the important work that we do at VIP. I first 
joined the UA as a pipe tradesman in Santa Barbara, California 
in 1987. Soon after that, however, I placed my UA career on 
hold and joined the United States Navy, where I proudly served 
as an aviation rescue swimmer and H-46 helicopter mechanic for 
11 years. I was honorably discharged from the Navy in 1999 
while holding the rank of Petty Officer First Class.
    Following my discharge from the Navy, I was able to pick up 
where I had left off at the UA and return to work as a 
journeyman pipefitter. After working in the field for several 
years, I was offered and accepted a position as a training 
coordinator for a regional apprenticeship program in Southern 
California, where I facilitated plumbing and pipe fitting 
training for over 10,000 UA members. I was promoted to 
executive director of this training fund in 2008, which is the 
position I held until I accepted my current position at the UA 
in 2012.
    In my current position, I manage the day to day operations 
of the nine VIP training sites located at seven military 
installations across the United States. Under the VIP program, 
the UA offers departing servicemen and women from all branches 
of the military the opportunity to participate in an intensive 
18 week training program on base, which they receive at no cost 
to either the government or the student. When the training is 
successfully completed, the graduates are guaranteed a job and 
are placed in one of the UA's best in class gold standard 
apprenticeship programs. Since its inception, I am proud to 
state that the UA VIP program has provided apprenticeship 
opportunities to over 3,170 military veterans.
    I know from my own personal experience how valuable it can 
be when transitioning back to civilian life to feel that an 
organization like the UA has your back. Reconnecting with my UA 
brothers and sisters and taking advantage of the work 
opportunities in this thriving industry certainly made the 
transition more manageable for me. It has therefore been deeply 
meaningful for me in my current position to be able to provide 
a similar experience to other veterans by connecting departing 
service members with both the training opportunities and 
support systems provided by the UA VIP program.
    With this background behind me, I will now summarize the 
UA's views regarding several bills currently being considered 
by this committee.
    First, the UA would like to express its support for several 
pending bills mentioned in the hearing invitation I have 
received. These include H.R. 3601, the Student Veteran Work 
Modernization Act, H.R. 5190, the Military Family Protection 
from Debt Act, the draft bill proposing to modify the 
requirements of the Edith Nourse Rogers STEM Scholarship, and 
the draft bill proposing to waive certain fees that are charged 
in connection with housing loans guaranteed by the Secretary of 
Veterans Affairs. These are measured, common sense reforms that 
will provide tangible benefits to veterans and military 
families and which we believe can receive broad bipartisan 
support.
    On the other hand, I would also like to take the 
opportunity to express the UA's opposition to the draft bill 
titled Consolidating Veterans Employment Services for Improved 
Performance Act of 2023. Broadly speaking, this bill would 
transfer the work performed by the Vet's Office at the 
Department of Labor to the Department of Veterans Affairs. 
While I am sure this bill is well-intentioned, I believe that 
is misguided and would not advance the interests of 
transitioning service members. The VA has a very important 
mission, but job creation is not typically understood as being 
a significant part of that. On the other hand, I have been 
working with the DOL vets office for 15 years, and I am 
consistently impressed with the workforce development experts 
there. It is my experience that the DOL Vets office has played 
an important role in connecting veterans with the 
apprenticeship programs that are also registered with the DOL. 
The Vets office has done a terrific job at facilitating 
effective communication and collaboration between DOL, DoD, and 
the VA. I believe that changing the structure of the DOL Vets 
office in the manner proposed would result in much more harm 
than good, and I would, therefore, ask the committee not to 
move forward with that particular bill.
    That concludes my testimony, and I would like to thank the 
committee again for this opportunity, and I am ready to answer 
any questions you may have.

    [The Prepared Statement Of Michael Hazard Appears In The 
Appendix]

    Mr. Van Orden. Thank you, Mr. Hazard. The written statement 
of Mr. Hazard will be entered into the hearing record.
    We will now proceed with questioning and I recognize myself 
for 5 minutes.
    Ms. Keenan, can you comment on the benefits of the current 
GI Bill comparison tool and whether it would be beneficial to 
veterans to add information that is currently collected by the 
Department of Education?
    Ms. Keenan. Thank you for that question, Mr. Chairman.
    The more information that we can provide to student 
veterans, prospective student veterans, so they can make the 
most well informed choices for them, we are in favor of. Adding 
more information, I think, is only going to help people make 
their decisions.
    Mr. Van Orden. Very well. Thank you.
    Mr. Barefield, as the principal mission of DAV is to help 
rehabilitate and support disabled veterans, do you believe H.R. 
522, the Delivery for Veterans Act, would be widely used and 
beneficial for disabled veterans?
    Mr. Barefield. Thank you for the question.
    The short answer is yes. Service disabled veterans should 
not have to pay for a benefit that they have earned to include 
automobile adaptation, even if it requires them to have a 
vehicle shipped to them. This is something that they should not 
have to incur the cost for.
    Mr. Van Orden. Thank you very much.
    Mr. Wescott, do you interpret H.R. 2830 to allow truck 
driving schools to cross state lines on opening a new branch 
campus?
    Mr. Wescott. Yes, sir, I do.
    Mr. Van Orden. Okay. Can you maybe explain for folks what 
the beef is with having stuff from one state to the other? I 
asked this because I have the largest contiguous section of the 
Mississippi River of any Member of Congress, so I can go from 
Minnesota to Iowa to Illinois within a 15 minutes drive. Maybe 
you could explain some of your reservations about this, please.
    Mr. Wescott. Certainly, sir.
    Those reservations are based upon the fact that, for one 
thing, if we are going to modify the 2 year rule, which I think 
is an important protection for veterans, while at the same time 
I understand the need for more truck drivers, it is very 
important that we are very careful in how we do that by keeping 
it within the same state you have an SA who is familiar with 
not only the state requirements, but is also familiar with the 
base institution that they approved. We are extending that from 
the one that they have already approved. If we do not safeguard 
that, then we would be in a situation where somebody could get 
approval in the state of, say, Idaho, and now the 2 year rule 
is effectively swept away in North Carolina. That is concerning 
to me, and there is my concern.
    Mr. Van Orden. We are just having a discussion about 
contiguous states. It is an issue with us. We are going to work 
with you on this. I understand that some tweaks--we can accept 
that. I would like real explicit stuff. I know there is great 
stuff in your written testimony, but truck driving is a 
fantastic job, and if we can get our guys and gals behind the 
wheel and actively employed it to be fantastic.
    Mr. Hazard, as a program manager of the UA VIP program who 
previously worked as the training coordinator for the Regional 
Apprenticeship Program, do you think that H.R. 3816, the 
Veterans Entry into Apprenticeship Act, would be helpful for 
veterans to utilize their GI benefits and gain entry level 
experience in the field? Do you have any concerns about this 
program?
    Mr. Hazard. The pre-apprenticeship?
    Mr. Van Orden. Yes
    Mr. Hazard. My concern with that, chairman, is wages. What 
kind of jobs are the--apprenticeship is designed with stepped 
wage increases as you work through the program and you complete 
the requirements. Pre-apprenticeship implies that you are 
automatically going to be an apprentice, and there would just 
have to be some benchmarks in there to ensure that somebody's 
ready to be an apprentice. I really think----
    Mr. Van Orden. I also share some concerns about this, not 
from that perspective, but from the perspective if you go from 
pre-apprenticeship program to pre-apprenticeship program to 
pre-apprenticeship program, you may be burning your GI bills. 
By the time you get to where you really want to be, you may not 
have enough benefits left to complete that degree. Let us talk 
about this in future.
    Mr. Hazard. Okay.
    Mr. Van Orden. But because I understand Mr. James' intent 
and I think it is very valid. We have just got to figure out 
how to do it properly to make sure that the veterans are well 
served.
    With that I yield back and I recognize Mr. Levin, Ranking 
Member Levin, for 5 minutes.
    Mr. Levin. I thank the chairman. Thank you all so much for 
being here. Thank you for your testimony.
    Ms. Keenan, I will start with you. I want to thank the VFW 
for their support of the VALOR Act. VA noted in its testimony 
on the bill that some veterans postpone using the home loan 
benefit until after they receive their rating so they can avoid 
paying the funding fee. What impact does that have on their 
financial well being and housing stability, especially during 
the period of transition?
    Ms. Keenan. Thank you, Mr. Ranking Member, for that 
question.
    We know that the first 12 months after somebody separates 
from the military is the most critical and where they have the 
highest risk for suicide. Housing instability is a big concern 
for us. A transitioning service member who's filed a VA 
disability claim should not have to wait for VA to make a 
decision, a life decision, to purchase a home, which creates 
stability for them and their family and their children. We want 
them to have this be a stress free process and to be reassured 
if they do receive a rating later from VA that they can get 
that fee back.
    Mr. Levin. Well, I appreciate that.
    A related issue, some transitioning service members close 
on a home before receiving their rating, often because they 
erroneously think they are going to be refunded later. In fact, 
this happened to a constituent of ours who brought this to our 
attention and prompted our team to write this bill. The 
question is, do you believe the current inability of 
individuals in this situation to receive a refund once they get 
a rating is consistent with the spirit of the fee waiver?
    Ms. Keenan. I do not think that that was the intention of 
the fee waiver. I think particularly for this group of 
transitioning service members to veterans, that there should be 
this allowance for them because the process may be lengthy for 
VA. We know there is a bit of a backlog at the moment, so we 
want to make sure that there is no frustration for them in this 
process.
    Mr. Levin. Thank you for that.
    I also appreciate VFW's suggestion to use the effective 
date rather than the date of examination. My understanding is 
that the effective date cannot be earlier than the day after 
separation. Individuals who close on their homes while on 
active duty would not be considered eligible for a refund. Can 
you speak to that?
    Ms. Keenan. I would have to look into that. If they could 
use their intent to file date, which would be the earliest 
possible date, if that would be affected by their date of 
discharge, we would have to look into that and ask our team.
    Mr. Levin. Happy to follow up on that one and grateful for 
your support again. It is an example of a constituent having an 
issue that is leading to legislation. Hopefully, if there is 
any veteran listening to this, contact your Member of Congress, 
particularly if they are on this committee, and you never know, 
we might be able to do something about it legislatively.
    I will turn to you, Mr. Hazard, because I know that you had 
to reschedule and you came from Idaho, et cetera, and also 
because I represent Camp Pendleton and I had the chance to go 
and visit the UA's VIP program there. Shout out to my friend 
Sean-Keoni Ellis from the UA.
    Wanted to ask you what we can do to improve access to 
employees and their ability to access SkillBridge. I know you 
have got a tremendous amount of experience with SkillBridge, I 
know that it is both DOL and DoD. I would love if you could 
share with the time that we have left thoughts that you have on 
SkillBridge?
    Mr. Hazard. Absolutely.
    SkillBridge is a life changer, really. It is changed the 
way we transition out of the military for the better. It is 
guarantees, it is a smooth transition from the military into 
the workforce with guaranteed employment. That is the way the 
UA does it. I think we need to look at the utilization of 
SkillBridge by transitioning service members before we worry 
about getting more employers involved. Right now some of our 
military partners are reporting to us that it is 5 to 10 
percent utilization of transitioning service members. I know 
from--personally, my son was attached to an EOD unit and his 
commander's policy was, nobody is going to SkillBridge. We need 
to get some guidance in there and some teeth in SkillBridge so 
people that want to participate can.
    Talking about the employers and the SkillBridge providers, 
we need to do a better job at screening those folks, too. What 
it is supposed to be is employment, and it is supposed to be at 
little or no cost to the service member, and it is supposed to 
have a high probability of employment, and very few of those 
providers are doing that.
    Mr. Levin. Thank you.
    I yield back.
    Mr. Van Orden. Thank you, Ranking Member Levin.
    In accordance with committee rules, I ask unanimous consent 
that Representative Dunn from Iowa be permitted to participate 
in today's subcommittee hearing.
    Without objection.
    The chair now recognizes Mr. Ciscomani from the great State 
of Arizona.
    Mr. Ciscomani. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Always good to see 
you, sir. Thanks to all the witnesses for being here today to 
discuss and provide feedback on a number of bills. I have 
enjoyed your testimonies. I have had the pleasure of touring 
the University of Arizona's Veterans Education and Transition 
Services, or VETS, as it is called, the center in September and 
I was able to hear firsthand from veterans and issues they face 
when seeking higher education.
    One topic that came up was the monthly housing allowance 
for online students. As you know, veterans taking online 
classes currently only receive half of the national average for 
their monthly housing allowance. Post COVID more student 
veterans are choosing online classes. For example, a 
constituent who is a gunnery sergeant in the U.S. Marines who 
is dealing with this issue reached out to me in the message. He 
said, and I quote, ``The MHA rate has been a massive influence 
on my decision and ability to use my earned benefits.'' 
Especially for veterans like him who have families or other 
time commitments, taking online classes can provide much needed 
flexibility. I also met a young retired, also--well, formerly 
served a single mother in the Veteran Center, wondered the same 
issue. That the reason she was taking these classes was because 
of her situation with her kids and that was what worked for 
her. I was pleased that my friend and chairman here, Chairman 
Van Orden, partnered with us and me and introducing H.R. 5702, 
the Expanding Access for Online Veteran Students Act, which 
would increase the monthly housing allowance for veteran 
students taking online classes to match the amount students 
receive for in person classes.
    While this bill is limited to the summer semester, I 
believe it is an important step in bringing parity in MHA 
reimbursements for in person and online students.
    My first quick question here to Ms. Keenan, how has 
education changed for VFW's membership in recent years? Have 
you seen a greater number of VFW memberships attend online 
school?
    Ms. Keenan. Thank you for the question, Mr. Ciscomani.
    We know that veterans are often non traditional students. 
They may have a spouse, dependents, they may work, they may 
have service-connected disabilities that limit their ability to 
go and do things in person every single day. Our membership is 
attending more and more online classes. The essence of why we 
support this bill is because we want students to have the 
flexibility to choose what is best for their life 
circumstances. The housing benefit is going to ensure that they 
are successful, that they have the stability that they need.
    Mr. Ciscomani. Thank you. Thank you.
    Ms. Barlet, I appreciate the testimony you submitted to the 
committee and the assistance our office received from Student 
Veterans of America in drafting this legislation and your 
testimony both written and today. You mentioned Josh Jones, who 
was previously the SVA chapter president at Loyola University. 
Can you elaborate why the MHA for online students can be 
difficult for students as they enroll in classes with limited 
availability?
    Ms. Barlet. Yes. Thank you, Representative Ciscomani.
    Actually, Josh Jones is in town this week. As SVA's Student 
Veteran of the Year he is placed on SVA's board of Directors, 
and they are all having a meeting.
    Mr. Ciscomani. Wonderful.
    Ms. Barlet. Looking at as a student veteran, you are 
looking at not just the degree that you are pursuing, but the 
institution that you want to pursue that degree. Then you also 
have the opportunity, keep in mind that you have two choices, 
you can do brick and mortar or you can do an online class. Even 
as Josh faced, a brick and mortar was his intention, but as he 
went along his degree, his summer classes were forced online. A 
budget that he had produced for himself had had the MHA all 
lined up that he would be a brick and mortar and have that 
institution MHA kind of like took him for a step back when his 
classes were forced online during the summer session and then 
he was forced online then decreasing by almost $5,000 for that 
3 month term.
    Like Ms. Keenan mentioned, for student veterans we have a 
lot of things going on in our life. I myself took my master's 
degree online prior to COVID at George Washington University, 
and I felt the education I got at that time really helped me 
sustain to where I am right now. Not only was the classes an 
opportunity to fit within my schedule, but I studied globally 
with other students from around the world and I was able to 
share my culture as a veteran and American and how I was seeing 
our health system at that time and then also getting ideas and 
seeing other things through other individuals' eyes. By the 
time I was finished with my master's degree, I had a better 
perspective.
    Mr. Ciscomani. Thank you. Thank you so much.
    Mr. Chairman, I yield back.
    Mr. Van Orden. Thank you, Mr. Ciscomani.
    The chair now recognize Mrs. Ramirez from the great State 
of Illinois.
    Ms. Ramirez. Thank you, Chairman.
    In the first panel we talked a little bit about housing and 
certainly we started talking also about employment. I want to 
thank every single witness for being here. I know that the last 
few weeks we have been trying to get our committee hearings up 
and running, so we are glad you are here. I want to also just 
give a special thank you to the Student Veterans of America for 
your critical work you do to ensure that veterans receive and 
maximize their education benefits.
    As you know, self improvement and self sufficiency are 
interconnected with education, employment, and housing. Often I 
say that housing stability intersects with financial stability, 
and therefore education and employment are critical to that.
    I want to go in a little bit more on housing, which we did 
a little in the first panel, but I think it is just following 
up to what Congressman Ciscomani was talking about, 
particularly around housing allowance. Any of you, I mean, can 
you describe how important it is for veterans to have access to 
housing and the kinds of barriers veterans face when they do 
not have that full housing allowance?
    Ms. Barlet. Thank you, ma'am, for that question. I will go 
first.
    By not having that parity of the monthly housing allowance 
kind of kicks off their budget for their monthly ideals and how 
they can expense the rest of their expenses through their 
budget. I know myself my rent is the first thing I pay and if I 
do not have that money up full, that kind of puts me behind for 
everything else. Financial security in a house is going to give 
you safety and safety is just going to help your mental 
stability as you are going through and studying and being that 
individual in your community and that family member that your 
family needs.
    Ms. Ramirez. Yes, thank you.
    I want to switch a little, and I want to ask Ms. Barlet 
specifically the legislation titled Expanding Access for Online 
Veteran Students Act, it would aim to make all programs for all 
students eligible for full MHA during summer terms. That has 
resulted in this proposal having a significant cost, according 
to the CBO. Is this proposal the ideal way you would aim to 
assist students experiencing particular hardships accessing 
individual programs, or would you model legislation differently 
to assist students?
    Ms. Barlet. This piece of legislation is definitely a 
starter conversation and we hope that this leads to more 
conversations to have the parity of MHA as an online learner 
and as a brick and mortar learner.
    Ms. Ramirez. Thank you, Chairman. I yield back. Thank you.
    Mr. Van Orden. Thank you, Mrs. Ramirez.
    The chair now recognizes Mr. Nunn from the great State of 
Iowa.
    Mr. Nunn. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
    First, I want to say thank you to our fearless chairman 
here from the great State of Wisconsin, both a VFW and an 
American Legion fellow. I appreciate your service and honored 
to serve with you in that capacity in our new roles today.
    With that, I would like to take us back to where we are 
presently. Many in this community are combat veterans like 
ourselves, others are members of our community who are watching 
as equally horrified as I am with the events unfolding in 
Israel. The destruction of that community forces us as 
Americans to reflect upon our own service, our commitment to 
our family, our friends, and those who we live with. I am here 
today not just as a U.S. Member of Congress, but as a 20 year 
Air Force veteran who has served in combat operations as many 
here around the world. It is as a commander I watched my own 
forces struggle with life that came after their military 
service.
    Today I carry before us a message for those who can no 
longer speak. Specifically, I speak in honor of Corporal Adam 
Lambert, a proud Marine from Adel, Iowa, in my home community. 
He loved his family, he loved his friends, and he loved his 
country. He put himself before family, friends, and country 
time after time. Adam bravely served our country in the 
Marines, deploying to Okinawa and then on to Afghanistan. 
During boot camp, he made a battle buddy named Daniel Harvey 
from Rhode Island. These two became fast friends and connected 
through their deployments and tried to maintain that through 
their return home to the U.S. At 22 years old, Daniel became a 
victim of suicide just after a year leaving the Marines. Adam, 
his best friend, followed with him less than a month later.
    Adam was a beloved son and a brother and a friend. 
Unfortunately, this story is all too common for our fellow 
service members when they come home from duty. In my home State 
of Iowa, sadly, we have a suicide rate for veterans four times 
that of the national average. Something, Mr. Chair, has to be 
done. That is why I am proud to work with members in this room 
when I led the introduction of H.R. 3722, the Daniel J. Harvey, 
Jr. and Adam Lambert Improving Service Member Transition to 
Reduce Veteran Suicide Act.
    As we all know, veteran suicide is another casualty of war, 
one that demands immediate attention and action by our Members 
of Congress.
    I want to thank you to the committee is here today and 
speak a little more specifically on what we can do to continue 
to help our veterans as they transition at some point from 
their military life to their civilian life.
    Mr. Barefield, I will begin with you first. I want to thank 
you for your support. I want to speak specifically to the 
Transition Assistance Program and speak to any issues that have 
gone unnoticed or overlooked in recent years and how we could 
continue to improve this program even further, sir.
    Mr. Barefield. Thank you for the question.
    As I mentioned in my oral statement, when I went through 
the TAP program more than 25 years ago and the way that I felt 
after I left my years of service with the United States Army, 
there were days where I just felt I was thrown away. I got a 
service-connected disability and was released basically because 
of the fact that I was non deployable anymore. In those initial 
months after service, I felt like nobody really cared. Being 
able to have mental health services available to me during that 
timeframe would have been very beneficial. I did not do the 
ultimate act like the gentleman that you mentioned earlier, but 
it was not far from my thought process. Being able to have 
those services available are crucial because you are talking 
about a very tender time period. Those first 12 months after 
being medically retired, retired or discharged from service, is 
a very tender time. A lot of service members are out in the fog 
about what to do or what is available to them. Being able to 
indicate and note those services are there for them is very 
important.
    Mr. Nunn. Thank you, Mr. Barefield. I would agree.
    Deputy Director Keenan, thank you for your service as well 
and your continued service with the VFW.
    You recommended including provisions that would require a 
health assessment and treatment plans to be conducted in 
private at the VA. Talk to us about what the current practice 
is and if there is any recommendations you would have on that 
front for mental health.
    Ms. Keenan. Thank you for that.
    I think our recommendation has to do with including this in 
TAP and having an opportunity within the program for some one 
on one private counseling, if that is required by the service 
member, if they seek that, so that they can actually discuss 
some of those issues, maybe outside of the class, but still 
with somebody who can provide the resources that they need.
    Mr. Nunn. Much appreciated. Thank you.
    We can all be strong and uniform, but as we make that 
transition, we need that access to it.
    Mr. Chair, I yield my time, and thank you for your service.
    Mr. Van Orden. Well, thank you, sir.
    Mr. Nunn, you are always welcome here, and I hope you 
understand that the support behind your bill is unanimous. 
There are a couple things we got to tweak on it, but you know 
it is my number one legislative priority as the chairman of the 
subcommittee to prevent veteran suicide.
    We are good? He is an Air Force guy. You know.
    I want to thank everybody for coming here today. It is 
critically important that we get together periodically and talk 
about these things.
    Before I turn over to Ranking Member Levin, Ms. Keenan, I 
understand that there are some people that came to this 
committee hearing today?
    Ms. Keenan. Yes, I have my family here.
    Mr. Van Orden. If you are related to this veteran, please 
stand up. Okay. Then there is a guy right there with the mask 
on. What is his name? Stand up, you. Hey, I am talking to you, 
pal. What is your name, son?
    Mr. Giannini. My name is Luke, sir.
    Mr. Van Orden. You are an Army veteran?
    Mr. Giannini. I am.
    Mr. Van Orden. What are you doing 48 hours from now?
    Mr. Giannini. I am getting married to Ms. Keenan.
    Mr. Van Orden. That is right, he is getting married! Hey, 
if you want, when we get done here, get your family and 
everybody come up, we will take pictures behind here and 
everything. It is a big day. Congratulations very much. You 
guys are all awesome.
    I now recognize Ranking Member Levin for his closing 
comments.
    Mr. Levin. I cannot follow that. We will just leave it 
there. Appreciate it.
    Mr. Van Orden. This hearing stands adjourned.
    [Whereupon, at 4:09 p.m., the subcommittee was adjourned.]

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                         A  P  P  E  N  D  I  X

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                    Prepared Statements of Witnesses

                              ----------                              


                  Prepared Statement of Joseph Garcia

    Chairman Van Orden, Ranking Member Levin and other Members of the 
Subcommittee, thank you for inviting us here today to present our views 
on several bills that would affect VA programs and services. Joining me 
today are Mr. Nick Pamperin, Executive Director of Veterans Readiness & 
Employment Services, and Mr. James Ruhlman, Deputy Director of 
Education Service.

H.R. 522   Deliver for Veterans Act

    This bill would amend 38 U.S.C. Sec.  3902(a) to add the total 
shipping price to deliver an automobile or other conveyance to the 
financial assistance provided to a Veteran as part of VA's purchase of 
an automobile or other conveyance for an eligible Veteran.
    VA supports this bill, subject to the availability of 
appropriations. It is a Veteran-centric bill that could increase the 
automobile or other conveyance allowance benefit for Veterans.
    Under section 3902(a), the total purchase price of an automobile or 
other conveyance currently includes payment of all state, local and 
other taxes in VA's automobile allowance benefit. However, the Veteran 
bears an unstated and unintended burden for any shipping costs relating 
to a vehicle's purchase. Amending the law to include the shipping cost 
could remove a cost burden to any Veteran using this benefit.
    This bill has no additional language to define what constitutes 
``total shipping price'' for delivery to the Veteran. Shipping prices 
can vary depending on the geographical locations involved and the 
shipping methods used. VA could implement this section in regulation to 
define more specific parameters on how shipping costs would be defined 
and calculated.
    Additionally, VA notes that if this bill were enacted, the limit on 
the total amount of authorized financial assistance as defined in 
sections 3902(a) and (e) would remain intact. Section 3902(a) states: 
``The Secretary, under regulations which the Secretary shall prescribe, 
shall provide or assist in providing an automobile or other conveyance 
to each eligible person by paying the total purchase price of the 
automobile or other conveyance (including all State, local, and other 
taxes) or $18,900 (as adjusted from time to time under subsection (e)), 
whichever is the lesser.'' Thus, shipping costs would be paid only if 
the total purchase price of the vehicle is less than the current 
maximum payment of $24,115.12, effective October 1, 2022.
    In the context of automobile allowance benefits for Veterans, VA 
recommends that Congress make technical corrections to amendments made 
by section 22 of the Veterans Auto and Education Improvement Act of 
2022 (P.L. 117-333). Section 22 amended the definition of medical 
services under 38 U.S.C. Sec.  1701(6) to include the provision of 
medically necessary van lifts, raised doors, raised roofs, air 
conditioning and wheelchair tiedowns for passenger use. We understand 
this section was intended to codify VA's existing practice of 
furnishing certain items, including van lifts, raised roofs, air 
conditioning and wheelchair tiedowns for passenger use as articulated 
in paragraph 5.e. of Veterans Health Administration (VHA) Handbook 
1173.4, Automobile Adaptive Equipment Program. However, VHA has used 
these as examples, whereas the statute defines these specifically as 
the only types of modifications that are permissible.
    Consequently, we recommend technical amendments to 38 U.S.C. Sec.  
1701(6) to authorize lowered floors, ramp and kneeling systems, 
mobility device lifts (not just van lifts) and ingress or egress 
accessibility modifications. We also recommend wheelchair tiedowns not 
be limited for passenger use. We believe these changes would reflect 
Congressional intent and not inadvertently limit the scope of an 
existing benefit. VA's practice has evolved, consistent with its policy 
and with industry standards, to include modifications to the types of 
vehicles Veterans most frequently drive--minivans, trucks and sport 
utility vehicles.
    Mandatory costs to the Readjustment Benefits account are estimated 
to be $8.5 million in 2024, $62.3 million over 5 years, and $132.7 
million over 10 years. No discretionary costs are associated.

H.R. 2830   Veteran Improvement Commercial Driver License Act of 2023

    This bill would amend 38 U.S.C. Sec.  3680A(e) to modify the rules 
for approval of commercial driver education programs. Currently, under 
section 3680A(e)(2), the Secretary may not approve the enrollment of an 
eligible Veteran in a course not leading to a standard college degree 
offered by a for-profit or non-profit educational institution if the 
course is offered at a branch of the educational institution and the 
branch has been operating for less than 2 years. The bill would exempt 
a commercial driver education program from this limitation if the 
commercial driver education program for a branch of an educational 
institution is appropriately licensed and uses the same curriculum as a 
commercial driver education program offered by the educational 
institution at another location that is approved under 38 U.S.C. Ch. 36 
by a State Approving Agency (SAA) or the Secretary when acting in the 
role of an SAA.
    To be exempt, the educational institution providing the commercial 
driver education program offered at a branch would have to submit a 
report to the Secretary each year that demonstrates that the curriculum 
at the new branch is the same as the curriculum at the primary 
location. The report would have to be submitted in accordance with 
requirements established by the Secretary in consultation with SAAs. VA 
would have to establish the report requirements not later than 180 days 
after the date of enactment.
    The Secretary could withhold an exemption for any educational 
institution or branch of an educational institution as the Secretary 
considers appropriate. In making an exemption determination, the 
Secretary could consult with the Secretary of Transportation on a 
provider's performance of a commercial driver program, including the 
status of the provider within the Training Provider Registry of the 
Federal Motor Carrier Safety Administration when appropriate.
    The amendments made by this bill would apply to commercial driver 
education programs on and after the date that is 180 days after the 
date the Secretary establishes the reporting requirements.
    VA supports this bill. VA believes permitting approval of a course 
offered at a branch with less than a 2-year operation period under 
certain circumstances would provide more training opportunities for 
Veterans and boost employment in this occupational area, while still 
maintaining SAA authority and oversight.
    No mandatory or discretionary costs are associated with this bill.

H.R. 3601   Student Veteran Work Study Modernization Act

    This bill would establish a 5-year pilot program to expand 
eligibility for the work-study allowance under 38 U.S.C. Sec.  3485 to 
Veterans participating in a rehabilitation program or education program 
at a half-time training rate or more. The bill would require the VA to 
provide a report 180 days after the enactment of the bill (and then 
annually thereafter) to Congress regarding Veterans who participate in 
work-study. The report would have to include information regarding the 
number of participating Veterans, the percentage of Veterans who obtain 
a 4-year degree and the number of Veterans who obtain full-time work at 
VA. The bill would be subject to the statutory Pay-As-You-Go Act of 
2010 and must show how the bill would affect mandatory spending and 
revenues.
    VA would support the bill, if amended, and subject to the 
availability of appropriations. VA recommends, in lieu of a 5-year 
pilot program, Congress amend 38 U.S.C. Sec.  3485 to permanently allow 
for Veterans in a rehabilitation program or education program 
participating at a rate equal to at least half-time of that required of 
a full-time student to participate in the work-study program.
    Mandatory costs to the Readjustment Benefits account are estimated 
to be $3.2 million in 2024, $19.6 million over five years, and $19.6 
million over 10 years. VA anticipates discretionary costs for H.R. 
3601; but, due to the comprehensive nature of this bill, a complete 
analysis could not be completed, and additional time is needed to 
provide an accurate cost estimate.

H.R. 3722   Amendment in the Nature of a Substitute to Daniel J. 
Harvey, Jr. and Adam Lambert Improving Servicemember Transition to 
Reduce Veteran Suicide Act

    Section 2(a) of this bill would amend 10 U.S.C. Sec.  1142(b) and 
require the Department of Defense (DoD) to cover the following mental 
health information during pre-separation counseling:

        (1) The availability of mental health services furnished by the 
        appropriate branch of service, DoD, VA or a non-profit entity;

        (2) The treatment of post-traumatic stress disorder, traumatic 
        brain injury, anxiety disorders, depression, chronic pain, 
        sleep disorders, suicidal ideation or other mental health 
        conditions associated with military service;

        (3) The risk of suicide, including signs, symptoms and risk 
        factors (including adverse childhood experiences, depression, 
        bipolar disorder, homelessness, unemployment and relationship 
        strain);

        (4) The availability of treatment options and resources to 
        address substance abuse, including alcohol, prescription drug 
        and opioid abuse;

        (5) The potential effects of the loss of community and support 
        systems experienced by a member separating from the Armed 
        Forces;

        (6) Isolation from family, friends or society; and

        (7) The potential stressors associated with separation from the 
        Armed Forces.

    Section 2(b) would amend 38 U.S.C. Sec.  6320(b)(1) by requiring 
the VA Solid Start (VASS) program to assist eligible Veterans who elect 
to enroll in the patient enrollment system and to educate Veterans 
about mental health and counseling services available through Veterans 
Health Administration (VHA). Section 2(c) would require DoD and VA to 
jointly submit a report to Congress on the information and materials 
developed pursuant to the amendments made by this bill.
    VA would support section 2 of this bill, if amended. 
Collaboratively, VA and DoD use several programs to provide benefits 
and services aimed to help reduce or eliminate risk factors associated 
with suicide while increasing protective factors for Veterans. VA could 
work with DoD to provide the information outlined under section 2(a) 
through the interagency governance structure for the Transition 
Assistance Program (TAP). VA supports section 2(a).
    With regards to section 2(b), VA has concerns the bill may restrict 
the intent of the VASS program. Under current 38 U.S.C. Sec.  6320, 
VASS employees conduct individualized conversations truly tailored to 
the unique situation and needs of recently separated Service members to 
increase awareness and use of VA benefits and services.
    The Veterans Benefits Administration (VBA) launched VASS in 
December 2019 to provide support for recently separated Veterans. 
Through VASS, VA provides early and consistent caring contact to newly 
separated Veterans at least three times during their critical first 
year of transition from the military at 0-90, 91-180 and 181-365 days 
post-discharge from active duty. During these calls, specially trained 
VA representatives address issues or challenges the Veteran identifies 
and assist them access benefits, services, health care (including 
mental health care), education and employment opportunities. After each 
successful connection, the VASS representative provides the Veteran a 
comprehensive follow-up email that provides information on all issues 
discussed and lists connections for additional support and assistance. 
This email specifically provides contact information for service 
organizations and connections to state Veteran resources, based on 
information provided by the Veteran regarding where they currently or 
intend to reside. For fiscal year (FY) 2023, VASS successfully 
connected with 197,615 (72.1 percent) eligible Veterans. VASS also 
provides priority contact to individuals meeting certain risk factors 
during the last year of active duty, supporting a successful transition 
to VA mental health care treatment.
    VASS representatives receive special training to identify recently 
separated Service members who may be at-risk, and procedures are in 
place to facilitate an immediate warm transfer to the Veterans Crisis 
Line, when appropriate. VASS ensures all Veterans are given resources 
and assistance for the full array of VA benefits and services based on 
their personalized VASS interview. Additionally, VASS employees 
currently assist eligible Veterans with VHA enrollment when desired by 
the Veteran and provide information about mental health care and 
counseling services when driven by the Veteran's needs. Having the 
current section 2(b) language mandated in statute would curtail the 
flexibility for individualized conversations.
    VA feels adding new section 6320(b)(1)(G) and (b)(1)(H) would be 
unnecessary as they are duplicative of the work already done under the 
VASS program, as summarized above. Further, new subparagraph (H) would 
require the VASS program to provide this information to all VASS-
eligible individuals, regardless of their interest in the service, 
which would undermine program goals of a personalized VASS experience 
tailored to the unique needs of the Veteran. VA would be required to 
allocate resources to allow for the extended time it would take to 
discuss these services with each VASS-eligible individual, which could 
negatively impact the overall program's successful connection rate. VA 
would need funding to support the implementation and maintenance of 
this bill. For these reasons, VA recommends removal of section 2(b) 
from the bill.
    No mandatory costs are associated with this bill. No discretionary 
costs are associated with this proposed legislation, if requested 
amendments are made.

H.R. 3738   Establishment of Veterans Economic Opportunity and 
Transition Administration

    Section 1 of this bill would create a new 38 U.S.C. Ch. 80 and 
establish within VA a new Veterans Economic Opportunity and Transition 
Administration (VEOTA) with the function of administering VA programs 
that provide assistance related to economic opportunity to Veterans and 
their dependents and survivors.
    Under proposed 38 U.S.C. Sec.  8002, VEOTA would be responsible for 
administering the following VA programs:

        (1) Vocational rehabilitation and employment programs;

        (2) Educational assistance programs;

        (3) Veterans' housing loan and related programs;

        (4) Verification of small businesses owned and controlled by 
        Veterans pursuant to 38 U.S.C. Sec.  8127(f), including the 
        administration of the data base of Veteran-owned businesses;

        (5) the Transition Assistance Program (TAP) under 10 U.S.C. 
        Sec.  1144; and

        (6) Any other VA program the Secretary determines appropriate.

    Under proposed 38 U.S.C. Sec.  8003, the Secretary would be 
required to provide an annual report to Congress regarding program-
related data from the fiscal year covered by the report. The effective 
date for implementation would be October 1, 2024. For FY 2024 and FY 
2025, the total number of full-time equivalent employees authorized for 
VBA and VEOTA would not be able to exceed (1) 34,228 in FY 2024 and (2) 
35,417 in FY 2025. Any labor rights, inclusion in the bargaining unit 
and collective bargaining agreement that would affect a VA employee who 
is transferred to VEOTA would apply in the same manner to such employee 
after the transfer.
    Section 2 of the bill would establish the position of the Under 
Secretary for Veterans Economic Opportunity and Transition, outline the 
Under Secretary's responsibilities and establish the procedures under 
which the position would be filled.
    Section 3 of the bill would require VA to report to Congress, 
within 180 days of the date of enactment, on the progress toward 
establishing VEOTA and prevent the transfer of functions to VEOTA until 
VA certifies to Congress that the transition of services to VEOTA will 
not negatively affect the services provided and that services are ready 
to be transferred.
    VA does not support this bill. VA appreciates Congress' focus on 
improving services and resources offered by these programs; however, 
VBA's current structure appropriately reflects the Under Secretary for 
Benefits' overall responsibility for Veterans benefits programs that 
include those related to economic opportunity and transition, as well 
as compensation, pension, survivors' benefits and insurance.
    We recommend removing proposed section 8002(4), which would move 
the Office of Small and Disadvantaged Business Utilization's (OSDBU) 
Center for Verification and Evaluation (CVE) program to the new 
administration. OSDBU currently reports directly to the Deputy 
Secretary. OSDBU's mission is to advocate for the maximum practicable 
participation of small, small-disadvantaged, Veteran-owned, women-owned 
and empowerment-zone businesses in contracts VA awards and in 
subcontracts VA's prime contractors award.
    This bill would move the CVE program which, according to this bill, 
administers the verification program required for Service-Disabled 
Veteran-Owned Small Businesses and Veteran-Owned Small Businesses and 
maintains the vendor information page data base, to the new 
administration. However, the verification program is no longer with VA 
and was transferred to the Small Business Administration as of January 
2023 by the FY 2021 National Defense Authorization Act, and 38 U.S.C. 
Sec.  8127(f) is now obsolete.
    VBA's portfolio of benefits is thriving. The Education, Loan 
Guaranty, Veteran Readiness and Employment (VR&E) and Outreach, 
Transition and Economic Development (OTED) programs are part of an 
integrated suite of interdependent services and benefits that also 
includes compensation, pension and insurance programs. Together, they 
form a suite of benefit-related resources that Veterans can rely on.
    In FY 2022, VA processed over 3.5 million education claims in an 
average of 6.7 days. Over 1.3 million claims were automated, delivering 
real-time benefit decisions to Veterans and their dependents. VA paid 
over $9.9 billion in education benefits for 834,460 Veterans and their 
beneficiaries. VA guaranteed 746,091 loans worth $256.6 billion in FY 
2022. Loan Guaranty also assisted 205,702 borrowers retain 
homeownership and/or avoid foreclosure, resulting in a $3.99 billion 
savings in estimated foreclosure costs to the government. VR&E helps 
Service members and Veterans with service-connected disabilities and a 
barrier to employment prepare for, find and maintain suitable jobs 
through counseling and case management. There were over 124,400 VR&E 
participants in FY 2022, with more than 30,500 new plans developed to 
assist Veterans and over 11,800 Veteran rehabilitations.
    For those Service members transitioning out of the military, OTED 
offered additional focus on helping them move more effectively into 
civilian life, both socially and economically. VA's commitment to 
support Service members' transition from the military is shown through 
the VASS program, as discussed above. Since the launch in December 2019 
through September 2023, VASS has successfully connected with 398,081 
recently separated Veterans, representing a 70.7 percent successful 
contact rate. This includes a total of 197,615 successful contacts in 
FY 2023.
    Additionally, VA continues to partner with DoD to ensure that 
separating Service members are focused on their transition as early as 
possible and begin civilian life on the right foot.
    To support the adjudication and delivery of Veteran-and Service 
member-earned benefits, VBA also has many enabling staff offices, such 
as finance, Human Resources (HR), facilities, production optimization, 
outreach and engagement, field operations, business process 
integration, strategic program management, performance analyses, 
communications and executive review. These enabling organizations would 
have to be recreated within the new administration to effectively 
operate, requiring additional executive leadership and replicated 
structures. Adding another administration would increase the leadership 
oversight for programs that are currently in place, contrary to the 
modernization efforts that are underway.
    With respect to section 2 of the bill, the procedure for filling 
the position of the VEOTA Under Secretary is the same as filling the 
positions of the Under Secretary for Benefits, the Under Secretary for 
Health and the Under Secretary for Memorial Affairs. Should this bill 
establishing VEOTA be enacted, VA agrees this should be the procedure 
for selecting the new VEOTA Under Secretary. However, we note that 
proposed new section 306A(c) would require VA to create a commission to 
recommend individuals to the President for appointment to the new Under 
Secretary position and would establish membership requirements and the 
function of the commission, which would implicate Chapter 10 of Title 
5, U.S. Code (commonly known as the Federal Advisory Committee Act 
(FACA)). Therefore, unless Congress specifically exempts the commission 
from compliance with FACA in the statute, a new VA federal advisory 
committee would have to be established to carry out the provision.
    Additionally, should this bill establishing VEOTA be enacted, VA 
would need ample time to plan for this considerable transition. 
Therefore, while VA remains committed to communicating closely with the 
Committees, it does not support a specified timeframe for reporting or 
certification.
    VA anticipates discretionary General Operating Expense costs would 
result from enacting this bill for Management Direction and Support for 
enabling staff offices (aforementioned finance, HR, facilities, 
outreach and engagement, field operations, business process 
integration, strategic program management, performance analyses, 
communications and executive review), which would include payroll and 
non-pay costs (travel, contract support, centralized payments, etc.). 
Due to the comprehensive nature of this bill, a complete analysis could 
not be completed, and additional time is needed to provide an accurate 
cost estimate. No mandatory costs would be associated with the bill. 
While no benefit costs are associated with the bill, the appropriation 
language for the Readjustment Benefits account and the Credit Reform 
account would have to change to reflect the title of the new 
administration.

H.R. 3816   Veterans' Entry to Apprenticeship Act

    This bill would create a new 38 U.S.C. Sec.  3687A to authorize VA 
to treat a pre-apprenticeship program in the same manner as an 
apprenticeship program for the purpose of providing educational 
assistance. A pre-apprenticeship program would mean a program or set of 
objectives designed to prepare individuals to enter and succeed in a 
registered apprenticeship program that has a documented partnership 
with at least one sponsor. A pre-apprenticeship program would be 
covered under the bill if the curriculum of the program is approved by 
a sponsor and the sponsor certifies to VA that the program will prepare 
an individual with the skills and competencies needed to enroll in a 
registered apprenticeship program. The program would also have to 
maintain conduct and attendance policies in accordance with a sponsor. 
For purposes of this bill, a sponsor would mean an entity that formally 
supports the pre-apprenticeship program, including a registered 
apprenticeship program; a department or agency of a state or local 
government; an institution of higher learning; or any other public, 
private or non-profit entity that the Secretary determines to be a 
sponsor for purposes of this section.
    An individual would be entitled to educational assistance under 
this provision if they are entitled to educational assistance under 38 
U.S.C. Ch. 30, 32, 33, 34 or 35 or 10 U.S.C. Ch. 1606 and are seeking 
to use their educational assistance for a program of apprenticeship. A 
covered individual enrolled in a pre-apprenticeship program would 
receive educational assistance equal to the amount received by an 
individual in an apprenticeship program. However, if the covered 
individual is not paid as part of the pre-apprenticeship program, the 
individual under chapter 33 of title 38 would still receive a monthly 
housing allowance (MHA). The MHA would be equal to the monthly amount 
of the basic allowance for housing payable under 37 U.S.C. Sec.  403 
for a member with dependents in pay grade E-5 residing in the military 
housing area that encompasses all or the majority portion of the ZIP 
Code area of the pre-apprenticeship program. The covered individual's 
entitlement would be charged at a rate equal to the rate charged for an 
apprenticeship program. The bill would apply to an individual who 
enrolls in a program of pre-apprenticeship beginning on or after the 
date of enactment of this bill.
    VA understands the intent of the proposed legislation, but does not 
support this bill.
    Mandatory costs to the Readjustment Benefits account are estimated 
to be $11.9 million in 2024, $65.4 million over five years, and $144.4 
million over 10 years. No VBA administrative costs are associated with 
this bill. VA estimates the information technology costs associated 
with the enactment of this legislation to be $5 million, which includes 
the design, code development, testing, and deployment of the new 
functionality in existing information technology systems. VA would need 
to make changes to the functionality in the Digital GI Bill to include 
pre-apprenticeship programs. VA estimates that it would require 6 
months from the date of enactment to make the necessary information 
technology changes.
    VA is concerned that putting pre-apprenticeship programs on a level 
playing field with Registered Apprenticeship (RA) programs for purposes 
of GI bill benefits receipt will lead to poorer outcomes for Veterans. 
The definitional parameters and safeguards of pre-apprenticeship 
programs are extremely limited as compared to RA, and we know that many 
individuals exit pre-apprenticeship programs with little-improved labor 
market prospects. Opening up GI Bill benefits to this class of programs 
may lead Veterans to waste precious GI Bill benefits on low-quality 
programs.
    VA has concerns that SAA approval of pre-apprenticeship programs 
will not serve as a significant quality assurance mechanism. Pre-
apprenticeship programs are wholly unregulated in the United States and 
even DOL itself does not have outcome information on the vast majority 
of pre-apprenticeship programs. It is challenging to imagine SAAs 
bringing order and quality assurance to this system, even with the most 
well-intentioned, well-designed approval process.

H.R. 5190   Military Family Protection from Debt Act

    This bill would amend section 207 of the Servicemembers Civil 
Relief Act (50 U.S.C. Sec.  3937) to expand certain protections to 
dependents of members of the Armed Forces.
    VA defers to DoD and DOJ.

H.R. 5913   Consolidating Veteran Employment Services for Improved 
Performance Act of 2023

    Section 2 of this bill would transfer the Department of Labor's 
(DOL) Veterans' Employment and Training Service (VETS) and its programs 
to VA effective October 1, 2025. The functions that would be 
transferred would include job counseling, training and placement 
services for Veterans under 38 U.S.C. Ch. 41; Federal Government 
employment services under 38 U.S.C. Sec.  4214; administration of 
employment and reemployment rights under 38 U.S.C. Ch. 43; homeless 
Veterans reintegration programs under 38 U.S.C. Ch. 20; and employment 
and Veterans benefits training under TAP (10 U.S.C. Sec.  1144). The 
transfer would include all personnel, assets, liabilities, grants, 
contracts, property, records and funding pertaining to those programs.
    The bill would also require VA to enter into a memorandum of 
agreement with DOL and with states, as VA determines necessary, to 
implement the transition of the DOL programs to VA. The bill would also 
establish that, in FY 2027 and for each subsequent fiscal year, the 
President would include, in the President's budget request for VA, 
funding for the transferred functions.
    Section 3 of the bill would establish a Deputy Under Secretary for 
Veterans' Employment and Training. Furthermore, section 4 of the bill 
would require states to employ and assign full-time and part-time 
Veteran employment specialists in state agencies to carry out 
employment, training and placement services. The bill would also place 
maximum emphasis on assisting economically or educationally 
disadvantaged Veterans.
    VA strongly opposes the bill. DOL works with VA to provide 
individualized career counseling and training related to eligible 
Veterans with service-connected disabilities and help employers fill 
their workforce needs with employment-seeking Veterans. Through DOL 
programs, Disabled Veterans' Outreach Program specialists provide 
services to eligible Veterans experiencing significant barriers to 
employment.
    The bill would also amend VA's prioritization of services. 
Currently, to the maximum extent possible, VA prioritizes meeting the 
needs of Veterans with disabilities and Veterans who served on active 
duty during a war or in a campaign or expedition for which a campaign 
badge had been authorized. However, the bill would emphasize assisting 
economically or educationally disadvantaged Veterans. While Veterans 
with disabilities may fall into this category, VA's priority should 
remain serving Veterans with disabilities. Veterans with disabilities 
continue to encounter obstacles in obtaining and maintaining suitable 
employment and often need more intensive services to meet their 
employment goal. Therefore, removing this prioritization would harm 
Veterans with disabilities.
    The bill would align employment and Veterans benefits training 
under VA's TAP. VA disagrees with this as it would remove subject-
matters experts from DOL involved with administering a program outside 
of VA's scope. This would be harmful to Veterans and limit the 
resources to which they would have access in seeking employment and 
training. Further, VA's curriculum is designed as a one-day course, 
focused on VA benefits and services. Adding additional material from 
DOL would cause program degradation and integrity issues.
    The bill would also effectively change the title of Disabled 
Veterans' Outreach Program to Veteran Employment specialists, which 
appears to be more suited to the change in the prioritization of 
services, as reflected in the bill. However, VA notes concerns over the 
implications to pay and compensation for these specialists as well as 
the lack of uniform qualifications standards for these positions. The 
bill would also require VA to ensure that the Veteran employment 
specialists are properly trained, meaning VA would need to develop a 
certification program for the state employees and monitor proficiency. 
Consideration should be given to converting these specialists from 
state agency employees to VA employees, similar to the Veteran 
employment specialists in VA's VR&E program.
    VA also has concerns regarding the reorganization and realignment 
implications with transferring the personnel from DOL to VA. VA would 
need to consider whether internal offices and administrations need to 
be reorganized to clearly delineate the responsibilities where similar 
or complementary roles may be impacted by the transfer of functions, 
such as between VBA and VA's Office of Human Resources and 
Administration/Operations, Security and Preparedness (HRA/OSP). HRA/OSP 
includes the Office of Veteran and Military Spouse Engagement Program 
(under the Office of the Chief Human Capital Officer) and oversees 
policy and other functions related to the Uniformed Services Employment 
and Reemployment Rights (USERRA) functions under 38 U.S.C. Ch. 43. Any 
internal reorganization and realignment would need additional time, 
funding and resources to execute.
    Related to the reorganization and realignment concerns, VA has 
concerns with the new position of the VEOTA Deputy Under Secretary. 
Further clarification is needed as to where the position would sit in 
VA and regarding appointment requirements for the position. One issue 
to highlight is that the position is assigned to address Departmental 
policies and procedures, which would include USERRA under chapter 43 
and Federal Government employment services under 38 U.S.C. Sec.  4214. 
Those specific functions touch on personnel management, which are 
functions specifically assigned to an Assistant Secretary (A/S) to 
oversee under 38 U.S.C. Sec.  308. Currently, those functions are 
assigned to the A/S of HRA/OSP. The bill may create a conflict in 
duties between the Deputy Under Secretary position and the A/S of HRA/
OSP.
    The bill would transfer the administration of these and other 
services from DOL to VA effective October 1, 2025. However, the bill 
would not authorize funding for VA to administer this program until FY 
2027. The lack of funding may cause delays in providing individualized 
career and training services to eligible Veterans. Given the national 
implications and magnitude of the changes outlined, VA would need 
additional time to fully examine the impact and scale of preparation 
that would be required for VA to implement the transfer of the 
functions identified.
    We understand that DOL opposes this bill, as discussed in its 
testimony.

H.R. XXXX   Improve the Processes to Approve Programs of Education

    Section 1(a) of the bill would amend 38 U.S.C. Sec.  3679(f)(1)(A) 
to add ``to the maximum extent practicable'' to the requirement that 
schools provide an individual with a form that contains certain 
personalized financial information prior to enrolling the individual in 
a course of education. Section 1(b) would amend 38 U.S.C. Sec.  
3680A(a)(4)(B)(iii) to allow for the approval of an independent study 
program that leads to a certificate for a course of study offered by an 
institution of higher education described in section 102 of the Higher 
Education Act of 1965 (20 U.S.C. Sec.  1002) that is qualified to 
participate in the student financial assistance programs authorized by 
Title IV of that Act, including a community college, proprietary school 
and any other institution of higher education that is eligible to 
participate in Federal student financial aid programs. Section 1(c) 
would require VA to establish a website that is updated regularly and 
serves as a central location for publishing information about the 
training VA provides for School Certifying Officials (SCO).
    VA does not support the bill. VA does not support section 1(a) of 
the bill. Currently, schools are allowed to use the College Financing 
Plan available through the Department of Education to satisfy the 
requirements to provide students with certain financial information. VA 
believes schools should be required to provide an individual with a 
form that contains certain personalized financial information prior to 
enrolling the individual in a course of education.
    While VA has no objections to the proposed changes in section 1(b) 
of the bill, VA believes this section is unnecessary. Currently, VA has 
the authority to approve independent study programs offered by 
proprietary institutions of higher education as these programs are 
described in 38 U.S.C. Sec.  3680A(a)(4)(B)(ii).
    While VA has no objection to section 1(c) of the bill, VA believes 
this section is unnecessary because VA currently has a website that 
provides information about the training VA provides to SCOs. On the GI 
Bill website, VA has established and provides a one-stop shop for SCOs 
and school administrators at https://www.va.gov/school-administrators/. 
The webpage includes training and guides, upcoming events, policies and 
procedures and resources to support students. Moreover, the webpage 
provides a direct link to VBA Education Service's current and previous 
webinars and training at https://www.benefits.va.gov/gibill/resources/
education_resources/school_certifying_officials/presentations.asp. On 
this page, SCOs can review topics that will be discussed in future 
Office Hours and review previous webinars.
    VA has not completed its cost estimate for this bill.

H.R. 5702   Expanding Access for Online Veteran Students Act

    The bill would amend 38 U.S.C. Sec.  3313(c)(1)(B) to establish an 
amount payable for the MHA under the Post-9/11 GI Bill for an 
individual pursuing a program of education solely through distance 
learning that is shorter than 12 weeks during the summer. Under the 
bill, such an individual would receive the national average of the MHA 
payable under the Post-9/11 GI Bill. The amendments would apply to a 
program of education beginning on or after August 1, 2024.
    VA would support this bill, if amended, and subject to the 
availability of appropriations. VA recommends increasing the amount 
payable for the MHA to the national average for all individuals 
enrolled in a program of education solely through distance learning 
under the Post-9/11 GI Bill, not just individuals enrolled in a program 
shorter than 12 weeks during the summer. This bill would create a 
disparity between participants of the chapter 31 VR&E program who are 
eligible for the Post-9/11 GI Bill rate and participants in the chapter 
33 Post-9/11 GI Bill program. While many chapter 31 participants are 
eligible for the Post-9/11 GI Bill benefit, many seek services from 
chapter 31 due to their service-connected disabilities. A Veteran with 
a service-connected disability should not be placed at a disadvantage 
simply by choosing to participate in another VA education benefit.
    Additionally, VA does not have a definition for ``summer 
programs.'' However, there is a regulatory definition for ``summer 
term'' and ``summer session.'' These definitions are found at 38 C.F.R. 
Sec.  21.4200(b)(5) and (6), which defines ``summer term'' as ``the 
whole of the period of instruction at a school which takes place 
between ordinary school years'' that ``may be divided into several 
summer sessions'' and defines ``summer session'' as ``any division of a 
summer term.'' This definition is limited as it is only applicable to 
schools that operate on a traditional semester-based schedule. It could 
not be applied to non-traditional term-based programs, for example, 
programs with 8-week terms and term start dates throughout the year. It 
is unclear how Congress wishes to address educational institutions that 
are organized on a year-round enrollment (or rolling admission) basis 
and do not have distinct summer terms. Therefore, VA recommends adding 
a distinct definition for the term ``summer programs'' in the bill. 
Since VA is uncertain regarding Congress' intent and desired outcome 
with this proposed legislation, we would be glad to meet with the 
appropriate staffers regarding the intent of the bill and to assist 
with refining the bill's language to include terms that would clarify 
establishing a monthly housing stipend under the Post-9/11 GI Bill for 
individuals who pursue summer programs of education solely through 
distance learning.
    Last, VA would need to make modifications to its existing IT 
systems to implement this legislation. Specifically, VA would need to 
implement new rules for the Digital GI Bill platform to pay a different 
MHA for individuals pursuing a program of education, solely through 
distance learning, that is shorter than 12 weeks during the summer.
    Mandatory costs to the Readjustment Benefits account are estimated 
to be $96.9 million in 2024, $1.5 billion over five years, and $3.5 
billion over 10 years. No VBA administrative costs are associated with 
this bill. VA estimates the information technology costs associated 
with the enactment of this legislation to be $5 million, which includes 
the design, code development, testing, and deployment of the new 
functionality in existing information technology systems. VA would need 
to make changes to the functionality in the Digital GI Bill to pay a 
different MHA for individuals pursuing a program of education, solely 
through distance learning, that is shorter than 12 weeks during the 
summer. VA estimates that it would require 6 months from the date of 
enactment to make the necessary information technology changes.

H.R. 5785   Modifications to Edith Nourse Rogers STEM Scholarship

    This bill would amend 38 U.S.C. Sec.  3320(b) by removing the 
requirement that an individual must have used all of his or her 
educational assistance under the Post-9/11 GI Bill or, based on the 
individual's rate of usage, will use all educational assistance within 
180 days of applying for benefits under the Science, Technology, 
Engineering and Mathematics (STEM) Scholarship. The bill would further 
amend section 3320(b) to authorize the STEM Scholarship for graduate 
degree programs and change the number of credit hours that must be 
completed from 60 to 45 semester hours and from 90 to 67.5 quarter 
hours.
    This bill would also amend the payment priority in section 
3320(c)(1) in which the STEM Scholarship can be awarded when VA 
determines there are insufficient funds available to provide additional 
benefits to all eligible individuals. Individuals who have used the 
highest number of months of chapter 33 educational assistance and 
individuals who are using their chapter 33 entitlement to pursue a 
program of post-secondary education and who have declared a major would 
receive priority under the bill.
    Finally, the bill would amend section 3320(d) to specify that an 
individual who receives a benefit under this section may use such 
benefit only after the individual has used all the educational 
assistance to which the individual is entitled under the Post-9/11 GI 
Bill.
    VA would support the bill, if amended, and subject to the 
availability of appropriations. The bill would amend 38 U.S.C. Sec.  
3320(c) to change how VA prioritizes and selects individuals who can 
receive additional funds. However, it is unclear how the dual 
prioritization in section 3320(c)(1) and (2) should work. Therefore, VA 
recommends Congress clarify how VA should determine the appropriate 
STEM beneficiaries based on the dual priorities.
    Additionally, since the Edith Nourse Rogers STEM Scholarship's 
additional 9 months are available only while enrolled in a STEM 
program, it is unclear what should happen if a student changes to a 
non-STEM program and the scholarship is revoked.
    Mandatory costs to the Readjustment Benefits account are estimated 
to be $112.1 million in 2024, $328.7 million over five years, and 
$432.7 million over 10 years.

H.R. XXXX   Waiver of VA-Guaranteed Housing Loan Fee for a Veteran with 
a Service-Connected Disability

    This bill would amend 38 U.S.C. Sec.  3729(c)(2)(A) to waive the 
loan fee for a Veteran obtaining a VA-guaranteed loan, based on the 
date of the Veteran's pre-discharge medical examination, rather than on 
the date of a rating or memorandum rating for disability compensation. 
VA supports improving the way those transitioning from active duty 
receive a loan fee waiver but has significant concerns with the 
approach taken in this bill. VA is concerned it could result in a 
complex, back-end refund process that would be confusing for Veterans, 
Service members, lenders and VA employees, and that the bill could lead 
to an unsustainable financial position.
    VA would support this bill if amended and provided Congress 
identifies the necessary cost offsets. Section 1(a) of the bill would 
establish an earlier point in time for a Veteran to be treated as 
receiving VA compensation, for home loan purposes. We note that, in 
effect, this provision applies to Service members who are considered 
Veterans under 38 U.S.C. Sec.  3701 or Sec.  3702. Where current 
section 3729(c)(2) requires VA to treat a Veteran as receiving 
compensation as of the date of a pre-discharge rating or a pre-
discharge memorandum rating, section (1)(a) of the bill would change 
the criterion to the date of the medical examination or review that 
leads to the rating or memorandum rating.
    The earlier-in-time measure would save disabled Veterans thousands 
of dollars and prevent delays in closings, as some disabled Veterans 
attempt to postpone using their benefits until after they receive their 
rating, solely to avoid having to pay the loan fee. This is because, in 
general, a Veteran must be receiving compensation to qualify for a loan 
fee waiver under section 3729. The loan fee prescribed by section 3729 
is the fee collected from each person obtaining a housing loan 
guaranteed, insured or made by VA. VA cannot guarantee, insure or make 
a loan until the loan fee has been remitted to the Secretary unless a 
waiver, as described in subsection (c), applies. Although this bill 
would not always prevent the need to collect the loan fee at the 
closing, it would ensure those Veterans who obtain a medical 
examination or review prior to closing, and are subsequently rated as 
eligible for compensation, would have their loan fee refunded.
    Section 1(b) of the bill would expand the new criteria to apply 
retroactively. VA would be required to issue refunds to any Veteran who 
would have been eligible for a waiver of the loan fee had the new 
legislation been in effect at the time of their loan closing.
    Although VA supports loan fee waivers for disabled Veterans who 
close on their loans before receiving their rating, VA is concerned 
with the continued expansion of waivers of the loan fee. Part of VA's 
commitment to ensuring all eligible Veterans can use their guaranteed 
home loan benefits is ensuring continued fiscal soundness of the 
program, which relies, in large part, on the statutory loan fee to help 
offset guaranty claims. This fee, which was designed to spread program 
risk across the portfolio, helps to lower the taxpayer cost of the 
guaranty, since VA's home loan program does not require down payments 
or monthly mortgage insurance.
    VA has seen a steady rise in Veterans who are exempt from paying 
the statutory fee: from 32 percent in 2013 to 55 percent in 2023. VA 
has also seen an annual increase in the number of active-duty Service 
members filing pre-discharge claims under the Benefits Delivery at 
Discharge program over the past 4 years. Following enactment of the 
Blue Water Navy Act of 2019, VA saw an average annual increase of 2.4 
percentage points. VA anticipates further increases related to the 
Honoring Our Promise to Address Comprehensive Toxics Act of 2022. As 
the percentage of waivers increases, the program's ability to cover the 
Federal Government's loan guaranty commitments without taxpayer funding 
could be in jeopardy. VA is concerned that, over time, the number of 
individuals exempt from paying the loan fee will inch closer to 100 
percent.
    Additionally, VA is concerned about the use of experienced, senior-
level staff likely needed to process these refunds, particularly if 
section 1(b) of the bill is enacted as drafted. Although VA is 
accustomed to processing loan fee refunds for retroactive disability 
compensation awards, this bill would introduce a more complex loan 
refund review process than applied in cases today. Under this bill, VA 
employees would be required to analyze a Service member's pre-discharge 
claims, pre-discharge disability examinations, pre-discharge 
evidentiary reviews and eventual disability rating decisions to 
determine the earliest possible date for purposes of a loan fee waiver. 
Redirecting senior-level resources could have cascading impacts on 
other mission-critical work, such as efforts to modernize technology 
systems to improve the guaranteed home loan process for Veterans, 
employees, lenders and other program participants.
    As noted above, VA supports an improved experience for Service 
members looking to use their home loan benefit prior to discharge. 
Therefore, VA looks forward to working with this Committee to craft a 
legislative solution that would not result in a complex, resource-
intensive refund process or, over time, a potentially untenable 
financial position for VA's guaranteed home loan program. 
Unfortunately, given the complexity of this issue, and the short 
timeframe VA was given to provide its views and costing, we cannot, at 
this time, provide specific legislative language that we would support.
    Mandatory benefit loan subsidy costs are estimated to be $5.2 
million in 2024, $31.7 million over five years, and $87.5 million over 
10 years. Discretionary General Operating Expense costs are estimated 
to be $144,000 in 2024, $715,000 over five years, and $1.5 million over 
10 years.

Conclusion

    This concludes my statement. We would be happy to answer any 
questions you or other members of the Subcommittee may have.
                                 ______
                                 

                 Prepared Statement of Margarita Devlin

                              Introduction

    Chairman Van Orden, Ranking Member Levin, and distinguished Members 
of the Subcommittee, thank you for the opportunity to testify at 
today's legislative hearing.
    The mission of the Department of Labor (DOL or Department), 
Veterans' Employment and Training Service (VETS), is to prepare 
America's veterans, service members, and military spouses for 
meaningful careers, provide them with employment resources and 
expertise, protect their employment rights, and promote their 
employment opportunities. It is my honor to serve as Deputy Assistant 
Secretary for Operations and Management of DOL VETS.

 H.R. 5913, the Consolidating Veteran Employment Services for Improved 
                        Performance Act of 2023

    This bill would transfer the VETS agency from DOL to the Department 
of Veterans Affairs (VA), and would likewise transfer the 
administration of Jobs for Veterans State Grants \1\ (JVSG), the 
Homeless Veterans' Reintegration Program \2\ (HVRP), the employment-
related portions of the Transition Assistance Program \3\ (TAP), and 
DOL's Uniformed Services Employment and Reemployment Rights Act \4\ 
(USERRA) enforcement responsibilities, and other related 
responsibilities and obligations provided under the authorizing 
legislation for those programs.
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    \1\ Authorized under 38 U.S.C. Chapter 41.
    \2\ Authorized under 38 U.S.C. 2021, 2021A and 2023.
    \3\ Authorized under 10 U.S.C. 1144.
    \4\ Authorized under 38 U.S.C. Chapter 43.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    DOL strongly opposes this bill. DOL is the lead Federal Department 
for employment, training, and worker protection programs, with 
extensive resources and institutional expertise in those services, 
which cannot be replicated elsewhere. With that in mind, VETS can best 
accomplish its mission housed within the Department that oversees the 
American workforce system. In fact, the current structure has enabled 
VETS' programs to be highly successful, with positive performance 
outcomes that support employment services for transitioning 
servicemembers, veterans, and military spouses. There is no evidence 
that moving VETS to VA would improve the efficiency or effectiveness of 
our programs. On the contrary, it would be extremely disruptive to our 
programs and the people we serve.

DOL is the Federal Lead for Employment, Training, and Worker Protection

    For over 100 years, the charter mission of the DOL has been to 
``foster, promote and develop the welfare of working people, to improve 
their working conditions, and to enhance their opportunities for 
profitable employment.'' DOL's Good Jobs Initiative promotes family 
sustaining wages, jobs with benefits, safe and inclusive workplaces, 
worker growth and empowerment. Following these guidelines, VETS 
prepares veterans and military spouses for careers that they deserve 
and promotes employers that recognize the value that veterans and 
military spouses bring to the workplace. The Department's collective 
resources and expertise are integrated with state workforce agencies 
and local communities to meet the employment and training needs of 
service members, veterans, and their families. By collaborating with 
our DOL sister agencies, across our programs, VETS successfully serves 
over 440,000 veterans, service members, and military spouses each year.
    DOL's Employment and Training Administration (ETA) administers the 
public workforce system, which includes nearly 2,300 American Job 
Centers across the country. These one-stop locations offer a broad 
range of career and wrap-around supportive services to the public, such 
as job training programs, employment services, adult basic education 
and literacy, vocational rehabilitation for individuals with 
disabilities, Registered Apprenticeships, childcare, transportation 
assistance, housing assistance, legal aid services, unemployment 
compensation (including the Unemployment Compensation for ex-service 
members (UCX) program), and other services. In most states, American 
Job Centers also host eligibility determination services for the 
Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program (SNAP), the Temporary 
Assistance for Needy Families (TANF), and other partner programs.
    The VETS-administered JVSG program provides funding for dedicated 
staff who work in the American Job Centers to provide individualized 
career and training-related services to veterans and eligible persons 
with significant barriers to employment and to assist employers to fill 
their workforce needs with job-seeking veterans. As part of TAP, 
transitioning service members who are unable to meet employment-related 
Career Readiness Standards are provided a ``warm handover'' to an 
American Job Center, a person-to-person connection between the 
transitioning service member and an American Job Center, which connects 
them with services and follow-up resources as needed. Veterans and 
their eligible spouses receive priority of service for all workforce 
training programs funded in whole or in part by DOL, including the 
comprehensive wrap-around services listed above, as established by the 
Jobs for Veterans Act of 2002 (38 U.S.C. 4215).
    VETS also strongly relies on the expertise of DOL staff employed 
throughout the Department. DOL is one of the largest and most 
experienced grant-making departments within the Federal government, and 
our Grant Officers are a part of ETA's Office of Grants Management 
(OGM). VETS also utilizes OGM to manage the grant application process 
and staff for HVRP. DOL has specialized expertise in workforce 
development, job placement, and employment programs for veterans and 
non-veterans alike. We also have established relationships with 
employers, workforce development agencies, and educational institutions 
that are crucial for effective employment services. Moving these 
functions to VA could disrupt these relationships and the institutional 
knowledge that has been developed over years. VA also has no experience 
providing grants to the public workforce system, and lacks the 
expertise needed to properly monitor and collaborate with stakeholders 
on those grants. Similarly, removing JVSG and TAP employment services 
from DOL would create new and unnecessary administrative and logistical 
barriers for the programs, which are currently an integrated part of 
the public workforce system.
    Our highly specialized USERRA compliance staff similarly work hand-
in-hand with staff from DOL's Office of the Solicitor (SOL). They have 
a collective, extensive expertise in the nuances of USERRA law and a 
broad range of other worker protection and employment laws that exists 
nowhere else within the Federal government.
    VETS also collaborates with several other agencies within DOL in 
support of veterans' employment. For example, DOL's Office of 
Disability Employment Policy (ODEP) focuses on disability policy and 
employment services and has a long history of working with VETS and 
with our military and civilian partners on issues affecting disabled 
veterans.
    DOL's Office of Federal Contract Compliance Programs (OFCCP) is 
responsible for administering provisions of the Vietnam Era Veterans' 
Readjustment Assistance Act of 1974 (VEVRAA). This law prohibits 
employment discrimination against protected veterans by covered Federal 
contractors and subcontractors. VEVRAA also requires contractors and 
their subcontractors to take affirmative action to employ these 
veterans. As required by 38 U.S.C. 4212, covered Federal contractors 
and subcontractors are required to report annually on their affirmative 
action efforts in employing veterans. Working in close collaboration, 
VETS and OFCCP developed a unique dedicated electronic filing mechanism 
for receiving the VETS-4212 Reports from Federal contractors, which 
cannot be removed or transferred as it is part of DOL's integrated IT 
system.
    DOL's Wage and Hour Division (WHD) enforces important leave 
entitlements for veterans and their families through the Military 
Family Leave provisions of the Family and Medical Leave Act (FMLA). The 
Military Family Leave provisions were first added to the FMLA in 2008, 
and revised in 2010, to provide protections specific to the needs of 
military families.
    DOL's Bureau of Labor Statistics (BLS) publishes monthly, 
quarterly, and annual employment data on veterans and, each March, 
publishes an annual supplemental report called the ``Employment 
Situation of Veterans.'' These data points and reports, and our ongoing 
consultation with the BLS subject-matter experts who produce them, are 
critical to understanding the veteran employment situation. VETS works 
with Veterans Service Organizations (VSOs), unions, the Advisory 
Committee for Veteran Employment, Training and Employer Outreach, and 
other external stakeholders to refine the metrics that BLS utilizes for 
its surveys of the veteran population. In addition to BLS, the 
Department's Chief Evaluation Office sponsors research on the 
effectiveness and efficiency of veteran employment programs.
    DOL's Women's Bureau (WB), the only agency of its kind in the 
federal government, has a longstanding partnership with VETS to provide 
tailored support to women veterans and military spouses who are women. 
Approximately 92 percent of military spouses are women, and they have 
an unemployment rate of 21 percent \5\ and a 31 percent underemployment 
rate. Among many other collaborations, the Women's Bureau coordinated 
with VETS to jointly convene a series of listening sessions across the 
country to hear directly from the military spouse community and better 
understand the employment challenges facing them. Following those 
sessions, WB and VETS worked together to launch a dedicated online 
portal for military spouses, featuring a range of employment resources 
including information on transferring occupational licenses.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \5\  https://download.militaryonesource.mil/12038/MOS/Reports/2021-
demographics-report.pdf
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    VETS programs cannot properly function without all of the staff, 
collaboration, resources, and other support provided by and situated 
throughout DOL, which cannot be replicated at VA. And, if VETS is moved 
to VA, then veterans will lose a significant voice within the public 
workforce system, as there would no longer be an agency within DOL that 
prioritizes and has the expertise needed to speak on behalf of this 
community.

            VETS Programs Have Highly Successful Performance

    I have testified twice \6\ before this Subcommittee about the 
successes of VETS administration of USERRA. USERRA prohibits 
discrimination in employment based on an individual's prior service in 
the uniformed services; current service in the uniformed services; or 
intent to join the uniformed services. USERRA also guarantees an 
employee returning from military service or training the right to be 
reemployed at their former job (or as nearly comparable a job as 
possible) with the same benefits. There were more than 2 million 
service members eligible for USERRA protections at the end of July 
2023.\7\ This sum included 766,069 members of the Reserve Components 
(RC) that are comprised of Reserve and National Guard troops and 
1,317,051 members of the Active Components of the U.S. Armed Forces, 
including the Coast Guard.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \6\ https://docs.house.gov/meetings/VR/VR10/20230309/115444/HHRG-
118-VR10-Wstate-RodriguezJ-20230309.pdf and https://docs.house.gov/
meetings/VR/VR10/20230614/116100/HHRG-118-VR10-Wstate-RodriguezJ-
20230614.pdf
    \7\ Total number of U.S. Armed Forces and Selected Reserves for 
July, 2023, reported by Department of Defense, Defense Manpower Data 
Center, in Armed Forces Strength Figures (including Coast Guard) for 
July 31, 2023, and Selected Reserves by Rank/Grade (including Coast 
Guard) for July 31, 2023, accessible at https://dwp.dmdc.osd.mil/dwp/
app/dod-data-reports/workforce-reports
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    On average over the past three years, VETS has closed 943 USERRA 
cases for investigation per year. When VETS investigators find a 
violation of USERRA, the investigator works diligently with both the 
claimant and the employer to resolve the case to the satisfaction of 
both parties. Of cases in which VETS found a violation of USERRA in 
fiscal year (FY) 2021, VETS resolved 87 percent of those cases, which 
is the highest resolution rate in the history of the program. VETS does 
not have a backlog of cases and resolves its cases in a timely fashion. 
This success speaks to the high level of expertise of the Department's 
SOL and VETS staff. VETS also conducts a robust public outreach 
campaign to educate service members, employers, and others on their 
rights and responsibilities under USERRA. In FY 2023, VETS conducted 
over 1,327 compliance assistance events nationwide, informing employees 
and employers alike of their rights and responsibilities under USERRA. 
The relatively small number of investigations needed each year compared 
to the large number of service members being protected provide strong 
evidence that the overwhelming majority of employers voluntarily comply 
with USERRA when they aware of the law's requirements, and that our 
outreach and education efforts have been highlight successful.
    VETS Deputy Assistant Secretary Margarita Devlin testified before 
this Subcommittee \8\ about the successes of the VETS TAP employment 
efforts. VETS has always been an integral member of the TAP interagency 
partnership, being responsible for the majority of the core TAP 
curriculum. The TAP interagency partners consist of the Departments of 
Labor, Defense, Veterans Affairs, Homeland Security, and Education, as 
well as the military service branches, the Small Business 
Administration, and the Office of Personnel Management. During the 
pandemic, VETS was able to pivot within a month to provide instructor-
led virtual workshops, making this transition faster than its TAP 
interagency partners. VETS supported instructor-led DOL TAP workshops 
for all military service branches across multiple platforms. This 
speaks to a flexibility that has been a hallmark of VETS' contribution 
to TAP. In FY 2022, service members and military spouses attended our 
TAP employment workshops in record-breaking numbers. TAP employment 
workshops provided instruction to 266,127 total participants,\9\ which 
is an over 40 percent increase from the previous workshop record of 
188,924 total participants in FY 2021. VETS workshops are highly rated 
by attendees. The FY 2023 Transition Assistance Participant Assessment 
results through the second quarter indicated that 97 percent of 
participants would use what they learned in their own transition 
planning, and 95 percent reported that our Employment Fundamentals of 
Career Transition enhanced their confidence in transition planning.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \8\ https://docs.house.gov/meetings/VR/VR10/20230517/115740/HHRG-
118-VR10-Wstate-DevlinM-20230517.pdf
    \9\ Note that an individual service member may attend more than one 
workshop. References to the total number of TAP workshop participants 
do not track individual unique participants.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    VETS also has a number of innovative TAP pilot initiatives, 
including the Employment Navigator and Partnership Pilot (ENPP), which 
provides one-on-one career assistance to interested transitioning 
service members, and their spouses, at select military installations 
worldwide. ENPP represents a high-touch, customer-centric approach to 
career transition assistance in which the Employment Navigators guide 
clients through career exploration and planning. The Employment 
Navigators provide direct connection to the program's 46 non-
governmental partners for continued assistance. These non-governmental 
partners provide a wide variety of services that include placement 
services, apprenticeship opportunities, career transition mentorship, 
and networking opportunities, to name a few. Each of these partners has 
a Memorandum of Understanding with VETS to ensure a responsive and 
positive connection with each client referred. ENPP also provides 
customers who need assistance with a ``warm handover'' to an American 
Job Center, which connects them with services and follow-up resources 
as needed. According to participant surveys, the ENPP has been a great 
success. As of July 31, 2023, 96 percent of ENPP survey respondents 
reported positive feelings after meeting with their Employment 
Navigator and would recommend ENPP to a friend or colleague. And, 98 
percent felt ENPP partners met or exceeded their employment-related 
expectations.
    In addition, the Off-Base Transition Training (OBTT) pilot program 
offers TAP to veterans and the spouses of veterans at locations other 
than active military installations, to help improve employment-related 
outcomes in areas with high veteran unemployment. VETS State staff 
leverage our relationships with local communities to establish 
classroom locations and reach veterans in need of this service in the 
pilot states. As of July 31, 2023, 6,170 veterans or spouses of 
veterans were provided support through 3,304 virtual and in-person 
workshops through OBTT.
    HVRP has also been successful. In FY 2022, HVRP awarded more than 
$57 million, funding 159 grantees. More than 61 percent of the over 
16,900 veterans experiencing homelessness served in Program Year 2021 
were employed when they completed the program with an average hourly 
wage of $17.45 at placement. VETS provided grant funding and services 
to more than 2,100 additional veterans experiencing homelessness from 
Program Year 2020 to 2021.
    Success stories like that of U.S. Marine Corps veteran Chuck Ondo 
are not uncommon. Ondo, a former State trooper, lost his career to a 
substance abuse disorder (SUD). After becoming homeless, Ondo enrolled 
in VETS' HVRP. HVRP helped him obtain his cosmetology license, 
purchased a set of clippers for him, helped him prepare his resume, and 
performed mock interviews. Ondo was soon hired as a Barber/Stylist at 
$15 per hour plus commissions and bonuses. Since then, Ondo has opened 
up his own shop and freely shares his story in hopes of inspiring 
others. He even helped his church create a support group for veterans 
and consults with state and local law enforcement agencies about how to 
effectively combat SUD. This is the power of the Homeless Veterans' 
Reintegration Program.
    As noted above, JVSG is a critical and integrated component of the 
public workforce system. In Program Year 2022, nearly 43,000 veterans 
worked with JVSG staff, and each of them faced significant barriers to 
employment, such as the 19,000 who identified being low income as one 
of their barriers. Nearly 475 Local Veterans' Employment Representative 
(LVER) specialists served almost 147,000 veterans by providing employer 
outreach activities. Nearly 1,025 Disabled Veterans' Outreach Program 
(DVOP) specialists served over 43,500 veterans with significant 
barriers to employment (43,500 veterans served during FY 2022 was a 
subset of the 147,000). And our most recent data shows that over three 
quarters of states have met or exceeded their goals for the number of 
participants served, participants employed, and post-program wages 
earned.
    All newly hired DVOP specialists and LVER staff are required to 
satisfactorily complete expert training delivered by the VETS-
administered National Veterans' Training Institute (NVTI) \10\ within 
18 months after the date of employment. This helps ensure the quality 
and consistency of service delivery across the country. VETS has worked 
closely with DOL's ODEP to include training components in the NVTI 
curriculum to ensure that employment and accommodations for veterans 
with disabilities are being properly provided.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \10\ https://www.nvti.org/
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

         Moving VETS to VA Would Greatly Disrupt VETS Services

    If the ``Consolidating Veteran Employment Services for Improved 
Performance Act of 2023'' were enacted, it would cause tremendous and 
costly disruption to our programs and people we serve. The veteran 
unemployment rate continues to be historically low, at just 3.6 percent 
as of August 2023.\11\ In addition, the data show that all VETS 
employment and compliance programs are achieving historically high 
performance outcomes, and those outcomes are a direct result of the 
knowledge and hard work of DOL employees, and of the processes, IT 
systems, and relationships that we've built within the Department.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \11\ https://www.dol.gov/agencies/vets/latest-numbers
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    But if this legislation were enacted, the focus and time of DOL 
leaders and staff, and the resources of our agency, would immediately 
shift away from our successful institution and toward the herculean 
task of implementing the transition to VA. Existing IT systems would 
need to go through costly studies and transfers to new systems at VA. 
VETS leadership would be tasked with studying and planning how to 
implement the transfer, developing and implementing an elaborate 
Memorandum of Understanding (MOU) with VA to accomplish it, and 
addressing all of the other numerous and costly logistical 
complications that would accompany the actual transfer of activities. 
Every staff member would need to be re-trained to use VA's internal 
systems and procedures. And every State and HVRP grantee would likewise 
need to go through a similar process, as they re-establish receipt and 
compliance of their grants through VA. I do not see how any of this 
will improve the performance of our programs or help our Nation's 
service members, veterans, and military spouses.
    Other work conducted by VETS would also be disrupted. For example, 
we have robust outreach and engagement activities that are helping to 
connect service members and veterans to employment and training 
opportunities. VETS has hosted employer, industry sector, and union 
round tables that highlighted the value of in-service credentials and 
their importance to civilian employers, and shared DOL resources that 
help facilitate civilian employment. In FY 2023, VETS' Veteran 
Employment Outreach program conducted over 2,000 documented employer 
engagement activities in support of employers to find, hire, and retain 
veterans. We have also partnered with ETA and the Department of Defense 
to develop pathways to employment for service members who have 
completed, or partially completed, the United Services Military 
Apprenticeship Program (USMAP). We have supported industry sector 
initiatives to facilitate public-private partnerships that are helping 
to establish career pathways into high demand careers in trucking, 
cybersecurity manufacturing, clean energy, defense industrial base, and 
healthcare industries. VETS has also supported this effort by enhancing 
its TAP curriculum, creating a new Military Lifecycle apprenticeship 
training and an Occupational Licensing Guide to help service members 
and veterans leverage the credentials and licenses earned while in-
service.
    I'd also like to note that Congress has recently moved functions 
out of the VA to more specialized agencies to improve the efficiency 
and effectiveness of programs. On January 1, 2021, Congress passed the 
William H. (Mac) Thornberry National Defense Authorization Act for 
Fiscal Year 2021 (Public Law 116-283). Section 862 of that law directed 
the Small Business Administration (SBA) to create a governmentwide 
certification program for Service Disabled Veteran Owned Small 
Businesses. SBA will also conduct certifications for Veteran Owned 
Small Businesses for VA's use. I strongly believe we should continue to 
build efficiencies in the government by continuing to align resources 
and staff by functionality instead of by theme.
    Further, our programs have been studied by the Government 
Accountability Office (GAO), DOL's Office of the Inspector General 
(OIG), and our Chief Evaluation Office. I am not aware of any report or 
other published evidence that suggests moving VETS or our programs to 
VA would improve the performance of any of our programs.
    Our record of performance speaks for itself. Our achievements are 
in large part due to our organizational alignment within DOL, and our 
close partnerships with VA, the Department of Defense, and others. 
Changes to this approach could have devastating consequences.

       VETS Position on Other Legislation before the Subcommittee

    VETS is supportive of the concept of H.R. 3816, the ``Veterans' 
Entry to Apprenticeship Act,'' which is intended ``to ensure that 
veterans may attend pre-apprenticeship programs using certain 
educational assistance provided by the Secretary of Veterans Affairs,'' 
and welcomes the opportunity to provide technical assistance should 
this bill move forward.
    On all other bills being considered by the Subcommittee today, VETS 
defers to VA.

                               Conclusion

    Chairman Van Orden, Ranking Member Levin, distinguished members of 
the subcommittee, thank you for the opportunity to highlight the 
important work VETS is doing in support of those who have served our 
country, and how important it is that VETS remain part of DOL. I am 
committed to working with you and your dedicated staff in any way that 
I can to improve our programs.
    I am happy to answer any questions you may have.
                                 ______
                                 

                 Prepared Statement of Kristina Keenan

    Chairman Van Orden, Ranking Member Levin, and members of the 
subcommittee, on behalf of the men and women of the Veterans of Foreign 
Wars of the United States (VFW) and its Auxiliary, thank you for the 
opportunity to provide our remarks on legislation pending before this 
subcommittee.

H.R. 522, Deliver for Veterans Act

    The VFW supports this proposal to pay the total expense price for 
purchasing and shipping a vehicle or other conveyance adapted for 
operation by disabled individuals who are eligible to receive such 
benefits. With the recent passage of the Advancing Uniform 
Transportation Opportunities (AUTO) for Veterans Act, the ability for 
veterans in need of adaptive services to have uninterrupted 
independence through safe driving without paying astronomical amounts 
is now possible. However, there is more work to be done for veterans in 
remote areas such as Guam. In recent years, the Department of Veteran 
Affairs (VA) responded to some of the needs that veterans in Guam were 
experiencing by standing up a local new amputee clinic that provides 
prosthetic care. The Deliver for Veterans Act would continue this work 
by amending the existing law to include a provision that would 
eliminate the undue financial burden, which is estimated to be 
thousands of dollars, for veterans not located in the vicinity where 
vehicles can be manufactured without a shipping requirement. The United 
States did not hesitate to pay the total expenses when purchasing or 
shipping the vehicles that these veterans needed to operate in battle, 
and we should not hesitate to pay the same expenses for remotely 
located veterans to receive the vehicles that are needed for them to 
operate independently after service.

H.R. 2830, Veteran Improvement Commercial Driver License Act of 2023

    The VFW supports this proposal to revise the rules for approval by 
the Secretary of Veterans Affairs of commercial driver license (CDL) 
education programs. Our country faces supply chain issues and one of 
the reasons is a lack of commercial transport drivers. Many CDL 
programs are offered at for-profit institutions that require different 
approval requirements for new locations and are identified as 
``branches.'' Not-for-profit schools are allowed to open new campuses 
and receive approval to utilize VA education benefits as soon as a new 
location opens. For-profit schools that open new branches have 
different approval requirements, one of which is a wait time of up to 
two years for students to utilize VA benefits. These same student 
veterans are able to immediately use these benefits for the same 
program at the main institution.

H.R. 3601, Student Veteran Work Study Modernization Act

    The VFW supports this proposal, which would allow students using VA 
education benefits at a rate of at least half-time basis to receive 
allowances for participating in work-study programs. This proposal 
represents a need brought to the forefront by one of our own VFW-SVA 
legislative fellows earlier this year. Many student veterans are only 
able to attend at a half-time rate as they pursue a degree along with 
managing other responsibilities. They may also benefit from VA work-
study opportunities and have a desire to give back to the veteran 
community through work associated with VA.

H.R. 3722, Daniel J. Harvey, Jr. and Adam Lambert Improving 
Servicemember Transition to Reduce Veteran Suicide Act and the 
Amendment in the Nature of a Substitute to it

    Service member and veteran suicide prevention continues to be a top 
priority for the VFW. Recent research indicates that suicide risk 
increases after transition from the military. Additional research shows 
that risk is also heightened in individuals with mental health 
diagnoses. Accordingly, it is appropriate to educate and support 
transitioning service members with connections and resources to ensure 
risk factors are identified and care is given. The VFW supports this 
legislation that would create a five-year pilot program to educate 
transitioning service members on reintegrating into civilian life and 
factors related to suicide risk. This pilot program would also 
facilitate a warm handoff to VA, which would include an initial 
appointment, a health assessment, and a tailored treatment plan that 
addresses medical conditions associated with heightened suicide risk.
    We do recommend that Congress ensures the provisions of this 
legislation occur in a private setting. This would enable transitioning 
service members to more thoroughly understand the conditions associated 
with heightened suicide risk, as they may not have pre-existing 
diagnoses. This type of setting would also ensure a safe, confidential 
environment to discuss personal, service-related events that could lead 
to the conditions outlined in this subsection. Furthermore, the VFW 
also suggests that the Department of Defense ensures appropriate 
processes and resources are in place to accommodate medical record 
requests and submissions to VA.

H.R. 3738, To amend title 38, United States Code, to establish in the 
Department of Veterans Affairs the Veterans Economic Opportunity and 
Transition Administration, and for other purposes

    The VFW supports this proposal to establish the Veterans Economic 
Opportunity and Transition Administration in the Department of Veterans 
Affairs. VA is comprised of three administrations--the National 
Cemetery Administration (NCA), Veterans Health Administration, and 
Veterans Benefits Administration (VBA). VBA oversees not only 
compensation and pension, but also the GI Bill, vocational 
rehabilitation, housing and business loans, and the broadly defined 
transition assistance program, which is shared with the Departments of 
Labor, Defense, and Homeland Security.
    The VFW believes our Nation's focus on the economic opportunities 
of our veterans must be permanent. In reality, not all veterans seek VA 
health care when they are discharged, they do not need assistance from 
the NCA, and they do not all seek disability compensation. However, the 
vast majority are looking for gainful employment and/or education. 
Congress should recognize the value of these programs by separating 
them into their own administration focused solely on their utilization 
and growth.
    The VFW has long proposed that Congress creates a fourth 
administration under VA with its own undersecretary whose sole 
responsibility is the economic opportunity programs. This legislation 
would permit the new Secretary of Veterans Economic Opportunity and 
Transition Administration to refocus resources, provide a champion for 
these programs, and create that central point of contact for Veterans 
Service Organizations and Congress. This would ensure that the GI Bill, 
Veteran Readiness and Employment, home loan, and other benefits 
centered on economic opportunity receive the attention they deserve.

H.R. 3816, Veterans' Entry to Apprenticeship Act

    The VFW supports this proposal to ensure that veterans may attend 
pre-apprenticeship programs using certain educational assistance 
provided by VA. Quality pre-apprenticeship programs can play a valuable 
role in providing work-based learning to help individuals prepare for 
an entry-level Registered Apprenticeship Program (RAP). While pre-
apprenticeship programs have varied designs and approaches, the 
Department of Labor has outlined the elements that can place an 
individual on the potential career pathway to employability though a 
RAP. There has been a sixty-four percent growth in new apprentices in 
the past ten years and a ninety percent retention rate of apprentices 
by their employers after completing an apprenticeship. Providing pre-
apprenticeship usage for VA benefits would allow veterans to obtain the 
skills they need to succeed while earning the wages they need to build 
financial security.

H.R. 5190, Military Family Protection from Debt Act

    The VFW supports this legislation to expand certain protections to 
dependents of members of the armed forces. Financial stressors can 
inhibit a service members' ability to effectively focus on the mission 
while serving. Financial stressors affecting their families can also 
contribute to unnecessary distractions. This proposal would expand 
protections for dependents of service members so financial difficulties 
do not negatively affect service members while they are performing 
their duties.

H.R. XXXX, Expanding Access for Online Veteran Students Act

    The VFW supports this proposal to expand the monthly housing 
stipend for student veterans who take summer courses online to receive 
the national monthly amount. Currently, the monthly housing allowance 
rates for online courses are half of the national average, which is 
simply not enough for many student veterans. If they take courses 
during the summer, even online, they should not experience a decrease 
in their housing benefit that could cause them financial hardship 
before they have completed a degree program.
    While this is a step in the right direction, the VFW would like for 
student veterans to receive at least the full national average rate for 
housing allowance even if they are enrolled in a degree program that is 
conducted online for some or all semesters. Online education has 
adapted and grown since the COVID-19 pandemic, much like working from 
home has changed the work model around the country. Student veterans 
continue to require housing assistance in order to successfully pursue 
higher education, even when enrolled in online programs.

H.R. XXXX, To amend title 38, United States Code, to improve the 
processes to approve programs of education for purposes of the 
educational assistance programs of the Department of Veterans Affairs, 
and for other purposes

    The VFW supports this proposal to modify the requirement for 
schools to provide personalized information about costs and financial 
assistance. The new language ``to the maximum extent practicable'' 
would give schools more flexibility without holding them back from 
receiving VA education funding. The legislation would also create a 
single VA website for school certifying officials to find current 
training. This would ensure that up-to-date training is always 
available even if schools experience staff turnover, or updates sent 
through email have been lost.
    These are both legislative priorities for the VFW as schools have 
communicated that these changes would help facilitate their efforts to 
support their student veterans. We suggest adding to Section 1(a) that 
all policy and guidance updates be included on the VA website for 
school officials, and that VA be required to update that information in 
a timely manner as delays in keeping this information current could 
cause problems.

H.R. XXXX, Consolidating Veteran Employment Services for Improved 
Performance Act of 2023

    Although the VFW understands the goals of this legislation, our 
organization cannot support moving Veterans Employment and Training 
Service (VETS) from the Department of Labor to the Department of 
Veterans Affairs at this time. When the committee first introduced this 
concept more than a decade ago, VETS was in turmoil. However, since the 
VOW to Hire Heroes Act of 2011 (P.L. 112-56), VETS has evolved. Today, 
VETS successfully leverages business across the Department of Labor to 
execute its mission, to include the Employment and Training 
Administration, Office of Federal Contract Compliance, and Office of 
Disability Employment Policy, among others. Though this legislation 
seeks to maintain these relationships, the VFW keenly understands that 
substantive interagency collaboration can be a challenge. Moreover, 
this proposal would likely present substantial challenges to state 
workforce agencies that would now report programs to separate entities 
under the purview of separate federal agencies with separate missions. 
Should Congress successfully compel VA to establish its fourth 
administration, the VFW may revisit this concept once this 
administration is viable and highly functioning.

H.R. XXXX, To amend title 38, United States Code, to modify the 
requirements of the Edith Nourse Rogers STEM Scholarship

    The VFW supports amending the specific credit hours language for 
the Edith Nourse Rogers STEM Scholarship, and including the ability to 
utilize this benefit for graduate degrees in STEM fields. The VFW 
supported the extension of entitlements for STEM students in the 
Forever GI Bill because of the importance of these degrees. If there 
are specific requirements that are a barrier for students to utilize 
this extension, then they should be removed. Education for veterans is 
a top priority for the VFW, and we especially want to see veterans 
succeed in high-demand fields.

H.R. XXXX, To amend title 38, United States Code, to waive the fee for 
a housing loan guaranteed by the Secretary of Veterans Affairs for a 
veteran with a service-connected disability who applied for such loan 
before receiving a disability rating from the Secretary

    The VFW supports this proposal that would specifically benefit 
active duty service members who utilize the VA Home Loan Guarantee 
program prior to receiving a disability rating from VA. Current housing 
market volatility and uncertainty can create an environment for service 
members where they cannot wait until VA finishes processing their 
disability claims before capitalizing on the opportunity to purchase a 
home. Some service members may opt to finalize purchasing a home when 
the right opportunity arises rather than waiting months to receive a VA 
disability rating.
    This proposal would ensure that service members who have conducted 
a pre-discharge examination can still receive the funding fee back from 
VA if they receive a ratings decision after finalizing the purchase of 
a home. We support the intent of this change but believe the language 
should be changed to ``effective date'' instead of date of examination. 
This would ensure that service members retain the earliest effective 
date for eligibility. The process for examinations happens after a 
notice of intent is filed, so changing this language to effective date 
would provide service members with an earlier timeframe.
    The VFW would like to ensure that if this proposal becomes law, 
veterans have the flexibility to choose what is in their best financial 
interest. We would hope the options to pay down the principle of the 
mortgage or to receive the reimbursement from VA would both be 
available.

H.R. XXXX, Transparency for Student Veterans Act of 2023

    The VFW supports the intent of this draft proposal to require VA to 
report on outcomes of student veterans who have used education 
benefits. However, we would like clarification that providing data 
would not overly burden the schools. Additionally, the memorandum of 
understanding with the Department of Education should be mandatory and 
established before this reporting is required by VA. This measure would 
ensure appropriate coordination of efforts. Currently, VA cannot track 
accurate graduation rates of student veterans. This can only be 
accomplished by requiring the Department of Education to identify and 
track student veteran progress and completion in post-secondary 
education. This memorandum of understanding partnership would be key to 
these metrics reporting efforts.
    Chairman Van Orden, this concludes my testimony. Again, the VFW 
thanks you and Ranking Member Levin for the opportunity to testify on 
these important issues before this subcommittee. I am prepared to take 
any questions you or the subcommittee members may have.

 Information Required by Rule XI2(g)(4) of the House of Representatives

    Pursuant to Rule XI2(g)(4) of the House of Representatives, the VFW 
has not received any federal grants in Fiscal Year 2023, nor has it 
received any federal grants in the two previous Fiscal Years.

    The VFW has not received payments or contracts from any foreign 
governments in the current year or preceding two calendar years.
                                 ______
                                 

                Prepared Statement of Marquis Barefield

    Chairman Van Orden, Ranking Member Levin and Members of the 
Subcommittee:

    DAV (Disabled American Veterans) has a mission that includes the 
principle that this Nation's first duty to veterans is the 
rehabilitation and welfare of its wartime disabled. This principle 
envisions vocational rehabilitation and/or education to assist these 
veterans to prepare for and obtain gainful employment, enhanced 
opportunities for employment, job placement and self-employment, so 
that the full array of talents and abilities of disabled veterans are 
used productively and to their greatest levels.
    We are a resolution-based organization, which means we can support 
legislation if we have a resolution that is adopted by our membership 
body at our annual national convention. We are pleased to provide our 
views on the bills impacting service-disabled veterans, their families 
and the programs administered by the Department of Veterans Affairs 
(VA) that are under consideration by the Subcommittee.

                 H.R. 522, the Deliver for Veterans Act

    The Deliver for Veterans Act would include the shipping cost to 
deliver a vehicle to a veteran that has entitlement to the VA Adaptive 
Vehicle Grant.
    Currently, a veteran can only spend funds from the Adaptive Vehicle 
Grant on the purchase of a vehicle excluding the shipping costs. This 
legislation would correct this problem by allowing a veteran to have 
their vehicle shipped to them without having to pay an additional 
charge.
    DAV strongly supports H.R. 522, the Deliver for Veterans Act in 
accordance with DAV Resolution No. 032. We believe that veterans should 
never have to cover costs that are related to their earned VA benefits.

  H.R. 2830, the Veteran Improvement Commercial Driver License Act of 
                                  2023

    The Veteran Improvement Commercial Driver License (CDL) Act would 
approve a commercial driver education program at a branch of an 
institution of higher education if the program offered at the branch by 
the educational institution is appropriately licensed and uses the same 
curriculum that is offered at the main campus of the institution and is 
approved by a state agency.
    H.R. 2830 would ensure CDL schools that offer courses at new 
branches do not have to wait two years if the primary institution has 
been approved by the VA and state approving agencies to receive GI bill 
benefits. It is estimated that 8,400 commercial driving programs have 
been approved for use by eligible veterans under the GI bill.
    This bipartisan legislation will ease the pathway for veterans to 
acquire a commercial driving license, helping address the trucking 
shortage, employ veterans, and strengthen our supply chains. In 
accordance with DAV Resolution No. 187, we fully support the Veterans 
Improvement Commercial Driver License Act as it would provide unique 
opportunities for service-disabled veterans to obtain a CDL and 
overcome their employment barriers.

      H.R. 3601, the Student Veteran Work Study Modernization Act

    The Student Veteran Work Study Modernization Act would require VA 
to implement a five-year pilot program to expand eligibility for the 
work-study allowance program to individuals who are pursuing programs 
of rehabilitation, education, or training at a rate equal to at least 
half of that required of a full-time student.
    The VA Work Study program allows veterans to earn money while 
enrolled in an institution of higher education, vocational, or 
professional program. Participants gain paid work experience while 
furthering their education. Currently, the program limits the types of 
positions a student veteran can hold and does not permit payment at 
local minimum wage rates. The program also requires enrollment on at 
least a three-quarter-time basis, excluding half-time enrollees.
    Pursuing higher education and gaining meaningful employment are two 
of the most common post-military endeavors for veterans as they 
transition to civilian life, and the VA's work-study program has been 
an invaluable tool in accomplishing both goals for many student 
veterans. As the VA modernizes and digitizes numerous other benefits, 
it's imperative that the department provides greater transparency to 
Congress about the program's successes while expanding its eligibility 
to student veterans who are pursuing academic programs on at least a 
half-time basis.
    In accordance with DAV Resolution No. 183, we proudly support the 
Student Veteran Work Study Modernization Act. The VA work-study program 
better positions student veterans for future employment and H.R. 3601 
will provide this benefit to more service-disabled veterans, which will 
result in more victories for veterans.

    H.R. 3722, the Daniel J. Harvey, Jr. and Adam Lambert Improving 
Servicemember Transition to Reduce Veteran Suicide and the Amendment in 
                    the Nature of a Substitute to it

    H.R. 3722 would require the Department of Defense (DoD) and VA to 
jointly carry out a five-year pilot program to assess the feasibility 
and advisability of providing certain services and a module comprised 
of specified elements as part of the pre-separation transition process 
for members of the Armed Forces for the purpose of reducing the 
incidence of suicide among veterans. DAV supported this bill in its 
original form.
    The Amendment in the Nature of a Substitute to H.R. 3722 states 
that under the DoD Transition Assistance Program (TAP) program mental 
health services will be available for service members with certain 
mental health markers, to include post-traumatic stress disorder, risk 
of suicide, treatment options for those with substance-use disorders 
and potential stressors associated with leaving active military 
service. Under the VA Solid Start Program the amendment would assist 
eligible veterans to enroll in the program and educate them on mental 
health and counseling services available through the Veterans Health 
Administration. A joint report from DoD and VA is due to the committees 
on information gathered from these programs.
    The DoD TAP program provides information and training to ensure 
service members leaving active duty are prepared for their next step in 
life, whether pursuing additional education, finding employment in the 
public or private sector, or starting their own business.
    The VA portion of TAP is a one-day, in-person course called VA 
Benefits and Services. Led by VA Benefits Advisors, the course helps 
veterans understand how to navigate VA and the benefits and services 
they have earned through their military career. The course offers 
interactive exercises, real examples, and covers topics important to 
veterans like family support, disability compensation, education, and 
health care benefits.
    H.R. 3722 would add or improve mental health services to both sides 
of the transition process to ensure that service members and veterans 
are well aware of the mental health services that are available to them 
and their families.
    We strongly supports H.R. 3722 and the Amendment in the Nature of a 
Substitute to it in accordance with DAV Resolution Nos. 059 and 160, 
which support legislation to improve and reform TAP programs, to 
include mental health services for our transitioning service members, 
veterans and their families.

   H.R. 3738, to establish in the Department of Veterans Affairs the 
      Veterans Economic Opportunity and Transition Administration

    H.R. 3738 would establish the Veterans Economic Opportunity and 
Transition Administration. This administration would have a projected 
start date of October 1, 2024, be responsible for six departments 
within the VA and provide veterans, their dependents and survivors 
assistance with related economic opportunities. The bill requires an 
annual report during the fiscal year to include information on the 
number of claims received and denied, as well as other information.
    The Under Secretary for this administration will be appointed by 
the President. Once a vacancy happens or is anticipated, a commission 
will be established to recommend individuals to the President. The 
commission will be comprised of 10 individuals from various areas 
within the VA, to include the Deputy Secretary of the VA.
    No later than six months after the passage of this Act, the VA 
Secretary must submit a report on the progress of establishing the new 
Administration and the transition of the provision of services to 
veterans. The VA Secretary would be required to certify that the 
transition of the provision of services to the Administration will not 
negatively affect services to veterans and that such services are ready 
to be transferred. Certification can happen no earlier than April 1, 
2024 and no later than September 1, 2024. If certification cannot be 
administered during the required time period, the Secretary would be 
required to furnish a report on the reasons why the certification was 
not achieved and estimate a timeframe on when it can be completed.
    Establishing a fourth administration within the VA dedicated to 
creating economic opportunities for veterans would increase the 
visibility and accountability of all veterans education and employment-
related programs. For example, as we highlighted in our testimony 
before this Subcommittee on September 15, 2022, the Veterans Readiness 
and Employment Program started working on an electronic case management 
system for vocational rehabilitation counselors however, after nine 
years, three failed attempts for a digital platform and over $20 
million spent, Veteran Readiness & Employment (VR&E) still does not 
have a digital case management system.
    DAV believes that the failures of the VR&E case management system 
is indicative of a lack of focus, direction, as well as a constant 
change of administrations. This is one of many examples of why we 
believe VA needs a fourth administration.
    Based on DAV Resolution No. 405, we recommend Congress separate 
from the Veterans Benefits Administration all programs related to 
economic opportunity and create a new administration that should be 
appropriately funded and administered by an Under Secretary for 
Economic Opportunity.

          H.R. 3816, the Veterans' Entry to Apprenticeship Act

    The Veterans' Entry to Apprenticeship Act would make pre-
apprenticeship programs available to eligible veterans and dependents 
who are using VA educational programs, such as the Post 9/11 G.I. Bill 
and Dependents Educational Assistance (DEA) Program also referenced as 
Chapter 35 benefits.
    H.R. 3816 would allow for a pre-apprenticeship program to be 
covered if the curriculum is approved by a sponsor that can certify to 
the VA that the program will prepare an individual with skills and 
competencies needed to enroll in a registered apprenticeship program. 
Additionally, it grants a veteran eligibility for a specified amount of 
housing assistance if not paid as part of a pre-apprenticeship program.
    Transitioning from service to civilian life provides a number of 
challenges for veterans and their families. If they are able to better 
prepare for an apprenticeship program success is more likely. We are 
pleased that that legislation includes DEA for family members however, 
we note that it does not include VR&E. Although VR&E does include 
apprenticeship programs, it does not provide for pre-apprenticeship 
programs therefore, we recommend that a provision for VR&E be added, as 
service-disabled veterans face many barriers due to disabilities 
incurred during military service.
    In accordance with DAV Resolution No. 187, we fully support H.R. 
3816, the Veterans' Entry to Apprenticeship Act and request that the 
Subcommittee consider our recommendation noted above for inclusion of 
VR&E to ensure parity for all veterans utilizing these VA programs.

        H.R. 5190, the Military Family Protection from Debt Act

    The Military Protection from Debt Act would amend the 
Servicemembers Civil Relief Act to extend the protections for others 
than active military service.
    The legislation would reduce interest rates on pre-service loans 
for the families of Reserve and Guard service members serving on active 
duty and ease financial burdens while their service member is deployed. 
Interest rates are already capped at 6 percent for service members 
during their deployment--H.R. 5190 would provide parity by expanding 
the same protections to military family members.
    While we do not have a resolution to support this legislation, we 
would not oppose its passage.

 H.R. 5785, to modify the requirements of the Edith Nourse Rogers STEM 
                              Scholarship

    The Edith Nourse Rogers STEM Scholarship allows eligible veterans 
using the Post-9/11 GI Bill or dependents using the Fry Scholarship to 
get added benefits. This scholarship provides up to nine months (or 
$30,000) of benefits for training in high-demand fields.
    Currently, an eligible student veteran would have to be pursuing a 
post-secondary degree, dual degree or an undergraduate degree in 
certain fields of study before consideration can be given for this 
scholarship. Additionally, a student veteran would have to have 60 
semester or 90 quarter hours to be eligible for the scholarship.
    The modification to the Edith Nourse Rogers STEM Scholarship would 
broaden the entitlement to eligibility for and decrease the number of 
semester or quarter hours required to become eligible for the 
scholarship. If implemented, the bill would change those requirements 
to allow graduate students or those pursuing a graduate degree program 
eligibility for the scholarship. It would also lower the semester and 
quarter hours requirements to 45 semester hours or 67.5 quarter hours.
    We support the modification to the Edith Nourse Rogers STEM 
Scholarship program, based on DAV Resolution No. 187. We need to ensure 
that student veterans have the ability to fully access their earned 
educational benefits while removing barriers that could derail their 
continued education.

    Draft bill, the Expanding Access for Online Veteran Students Act

    The Expanding Access for Online Veteran Students Act would increase 
the monthly housing stipend for student veterans that pursue their 
education through distance learning for the summer quarter or semester. 
The rate of allowance would be equal to the amount paid to other 
student veterans based on a standard formula. The effective date for 
this housing allowance would be August 1, 2024.
    Additionally, this legislation would positively impact rural and 
highly rural student veterans by providing them the ability to continue 
their education with an institution of higher learning that may be out 
of their normal commuting area.
    We are pleased to support this draft bill--the Expanding Access for 
Online Veteran Students Act, based on DAV Resolution No. 187. We need 
to ensure that student veterans have the ability to fully access their 
earned educational benefits while removing barriers that could derail 
their continued education. This legislation would help to provide them 
the means to reach their full potential without prohibitions.

 Draft bill, to improve the processes to approve programs of education 
 for purposes of the educational assistance programs of the Department 
                          of Veterans Affairs

    This draft legislation would require that student veterans are 
provided with a form that includes significant information about the 
cost of the course and other relevant information. The student would be 
able to compare the course with other similar courses offered at other 
schools to determine which aid package would be to their advantage. 
This legislation would also require the VA to establish and update a 
website to be used as the central location for training information for 
VA School Certifying Officials (SCO).
    A SCO is an employee of an educational institution with the primary 
responsibility for certifying veteran enrollment at the educational 
institution. SCOs at educational institutions normally have at least 20 
or more enrolled student veterans using educational assistance. They 
are required to complete training prior to being authorized to certify 
enrollments to VA. This legislation would create a centralized location 
for SCOs to find the most up-to-date training information.
    Currently, student veterans are not provided enough information to 
make good decisions on what courses to take and what school offers the 
better aid package for them. This bill would provide students with more 
information to make a better-informed decision about where and how to 
use their educational benefits.
    In accordance with DAV Resolution No. 187, DAV strongly supports 
this legislation, which will remove barriers and streamline the 
education process for service-disabled veterans.

         Draft bill, the Transparency for Student Veterans Act

    The Transparency for Student Veterans Act would provide student 
veterans with additional information about programs of education 
leading to a certificate or professional license at a particular 
institution of higher learning. The bill would also require tracking of 
certain student veteran information, to include how many have re-
enrolled after the first year, the number of them that have completed 
their degrees or received a certificate or professional license. It 
would also track the time period in which it took student veterans to 
finish their program of study and the annual salaries they received 
once their programs have been completed.
    Additionally, this legislation would require the VA Secretary to 
enter into a memorandum of understanding with the Secretary of 
Education and the leaders of other relevant federal agencies to gather 
information on the outcomes of the student veterans who use the 
programs of educational assistance at institutions of higher learning.
    Currently, student veterans do not have all of the information they 
need to make informed decisions about their options for educational 
programs at their institutions of higher learning. This bill would 
provide student veterans with key information to help them determine if 
they want to continue their educational program at a particular school.
    We support this draft legislation--the Transparency for Student 
Veterans Act, based on DAV Resolution Nos. 070 and 187. VA systems need 
to be upgraded and improved to help facilitate the flow of information 
to student veterans and their dependents, especially those receiving 
educational assistance from the VA. There is a need for VA to share 
vital information for student veterans so they can use their earned 
educational benefits to their fullest extent.

Draft bill, the Consolidating Veteran Employment Services for Improved 
                        Performance Act of 2023

    The Consolidating Veteran Employment Services for Improved 
Performance Act would transfer functions performed by the Department of 
Labor (DOL) to the VA. This would apply to the following programs, 
effective October 1, 2025:

      Job counseling, training, and placement services for 
veterans under chapter 41 of title 38, United States Code;

      Federal Government employment services by the Secretary 
of Labor under section 4214 of title 38, United States Code;

      Administration of employment and reemployment rights of 
members of the uniformed services under chapter 43 of title 38, United 
States Code;

      Homeless veterans reintegration programs under chapter 20 
of title 38, United States Code; and

      Employment and veterans benefits training under the 
Transition Assistance Program under section 1144 of title 10, United 26 
States Code.

    A new Deputy Under Secretary for Veterans' Employment and Training 
would be established within VA to oversee these functions, along with 
any other employment, unemployment, and training programs affecting 
veterans.
    Additionally, this would consolidate the current positions of Local 
Veterans' Employment Representative (LVER) and Disabled Veterans 
Outreach Program (DVOP) Specialist into a new position called Veterans 
Employment Specialist. Current LVERs and DVOPs, who are employed 
directly by states, would be retained and reclassified to these new 
positions.
    DAV does not have a resolution on this specific issue, and takes no 
formal position on this draft bill.

   Draft bill, to waive the fee for a housing loan guaranteed by the 
 Secretary of Veterans Affairs for a veteran with a service-connected 
  disability who applied for such loan before receiving a disability 
                       rating from the Secretary

    This draft legislation would grant a veteran a refund of their 
housing loan fee if the veteran was awarded disability compensation 
prior to the date of their loan application.
    The VA funding fee is a one-time payment that the veteran, service 
member, or survivor pays on a VA-backed or VA direct home loan. This 
fee helps to lower the cost of the loan for U.S. taxpayers because the 
VA home loan program doesn't require down payments or monthly mortgage 
insurance.
    A veteran would not have to pay the VA funding fee if they are in 
receipt of VA compensation for a service-connected disability. But if a 
veteran applied for a VA home loan prior to receiving their award of 
benefits from the VA, then they may be eligible for a refund of the VA 
funding fee if they are later awarded VA compensation for a service-
connected disability. The effective date of their VA compensation must 
be retroactive to before the date of the loan closing.
    DAV does not have a specific resolution that would allow our 
support for this legislation, but we understand the importance of this 
benefit for potential service-disabled veterans and their families and 
would not oppose passage of this legislation.
    Mr. Chairman, this concludes my testimony on behalf of DAV. I am 
happy to answer any questions you or members of the Subcommittee may 
have.
                                 ______
                                 

               Clarifying Statement of Marquis Barefield

    Chairman Van Orden, Ranking Member Levin and Members of the 
Subcommittee: Please consider this as my statement to clarify our 
testimony at the November 2, 2023, subcommittee legislative hearing. 
During our discussion on H.R. 3738, we stated that there were three 
failed attempts to create an electronic case management system for 
Vocational Rehabilitation Counselors (VRCs) by Veteran Readiness & 
Employment (VR&E).
    The first failed attempt started in 2015 and ended in 2018. At the 
House Veterans' Affairs Subcommittee on Economic Opportunity hearing of 
May 17, 2018, VR&E acknowledged that in 2015, they started working on 
an electronic case management system for VRCs. It was confirmed that 
after three years and $12 million, they did not have a viable operating 
electronic case management system.
    At the House Veterans' Affairs Subcommittee on Economic Opportunity 
hearing of June 4, 2019, in VA's written testimony, they indicated the 
failure of the first attempt at an electronic case management system 
and their intentions of moving forward with Software for Service and 
indicated it would be awarded by the end of FY 2019.
    Subsequently, VR&E leadership indicated that the second effort for 
a case management system, the Software for Service contract was not 
continued. It was determined that there were too many delays and a lack 
of confidence that this system was correctly and timely processing 
payments to schools and to veterans. Additionally, they stood up a VA 
internal team to address the actual processes and requirements of a new 
system. They spent eight months evaluating what happened and what went 
wrong with the Software for Service system and engaged the MITRE 
Corporation for their review.
    At the House Veterans' Affairs Subcommittee on Economic Opportunity 
hearing of September 15, 2022, VR&E acknowledged the failure of the 
second attempt and in 2021 they started developing the Readiness & 
Employment System (RES), the third attempt of an electronic case 
management system.
    In April of this year, GovCIO was awarded a 10-year $141 million 
contract to develop and create RES, the much-needed electronic case 
management system for VR&E counselors.
    There have been two failed attempts to create an electronic case 
management system for VR&E. The third attempt has been underway since 
2021, the contract has been awarded and development has begun.
    To clarify our previous testimony, nearly nine years later, over 
$20 million spent on two failed attempts and a third attempt in 
progress that will cost an additional $140 million, VR&E still does not 
have an electronic case management system.
    We thank you for the opportunity to clarify our previous testimony.
                                 ______
                                 

                   Prepared Statement of Tammy Barlet
[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT] 

                  Prepared Statement of Joseph Wescott

Introduction

    Chairman Van Orden, Ranking Member Levin and members of the 
Subcommittee on Economic Opportunity, I am pleased to appear before you 
today on behalf of the fifty-two-member State agencies of the National 
Association of State Approving Agencies (NASAA). I appreciate the 
opportunity to provide comments to this committee on legislation 
pertaining to veterans' education and training and the GI Bill. I am 
accompanied today by NASAA President Frank Myers and Vice President 
Rebecca Ryan.

         Role of the State Approving Agencies: Past and Present

    State Approving Agencies (SAAs) play a critical role in the 
administration of GI Bill benefits. Shortly after passage of the 
Servicemen's Readjustment Act of 1944, or the GI Bill of Rights, 
Congress, recognizing it was the responsibility of the states within 
our federal system of government to oversee the education of its 
citizens, required that each State establish a ``State Approving 
Agency.'' In response, the governor of each state designated a state 
bureau or department as the SAA. The SAA was to be supported through 
reimbursement of its expenses by the US Department of Veterans Affairs 
(VA). Thus evolved a truly cooperative federal-state partnership that 
maintains the rights of the states while monitoring and protecting a 
federally sponsored program administered under the terms and conditions 
of federal law.
    The original GI Bill, as enacted in 1944, relied on state agencies 
to establish standards for and to approve programs of education in 
which eligible individuals could use GI Bill benefits. Over time SAAs 
have evolved to become the primary means of assuring institutional 
accountability. Federal law is clear in that SAAs are the primary 
governmental body through which approval of education and training for 
Veterans' educational benefits is to occur. With specialized 
authorization under the Code of Federal Regulations and state statutes, 
they exercise the state's authority to approve, disapprove and monitor 
education and training programs. The SAA brings to this mission 
knowledge of state law and regulations as well as knowledge of the 
local environment and needs of the state. SAAs also assist the states 
and VA with exposing fraudulent and criminal activity involving the 
payment of Veteran's benefits.
    In 1948, SAA representatives met to form a professional 
organization to promote high professional standards, create a forum for 
the exchange of best practices, and to promote uniformity of purpose 
and practice. For more than seventy-five years now, NASAA has worked 
with our VA partners, the VSOs, and all agencies to ensure the greatest 
numbers of quality programs are available to those eligible for 
education and training benefits. We do this through our primary mission 
of program approval and our related efforts: compliance, oversight, 
training, liaison, and outreach. Indeed, with the exception of federal 
facilities, the State Approving Agencies are the sole authority 
responsible for the approval of all programs of education and training 
within the Nation. We take that responsibility seriously and consider 
ourselves the ``gatekeepers of quality'' for programs approved under 
the GI Bill.
    Today, fifty-two SAAs in 50 states, as well as the District of 
Columbia and the territory of Puerto Rico (one state has two SAAs), 
composed of approximately 215 professional and support personnel, are 
supervising over 13,000 active facilities and nearly 220,000 programs. 
The Subcommittee is no stranger to our fundamental role as it is the 
same today as when we were created by Congress. SAAs work in 
collaboration with the VA and our other partners to promote and 
safeguard quality education and training programs for Veterans and 
other eligible persons and assist the VA in preventing fraud, waste, 
and abuse in the administration of the GI Bill. NASAA believes the 
primary responsibility and focus of the SAAs is, and should continue to 
be, to review, evaluate, and approve programs at schools and training 
facilities, utilizing state and federal criteria. It is this mission 
that underlies our comments today and upon which we base our concerns 
and suggestion.

H.R. 2830--``Veteran Improvement Commercial Driver License Act of 2023'

    This legislation, while well meaning, causes NASAA great concern in 
its present form. As drafted, this bill sweeps away the protections 
provided for veterans under the two-year rule for private and not-for-
profit educational institutions that do not offer a standard college 
degree (NCD institution). These educational institutions must be in 
existence for at least two years and approved by other necessary state 
regulatory authorities, such as a state department of education or 
state department of business licensure. The institution must also have 
successfully offered the program for approval for that same period of 
time. This provision in essence, ensures that these institutions are 
committed to their mission long term, and have demonstrated success 
both programmatically and professionally. This is an important 
safeguard preventing an NCD institution, such as a truck driving 
school, from gaining approval without demonstrating a measure of 
quality and stability in its continuous operation.
    This bill, as presently drafted, only requires that an institution 
offer the same curriculum as a previously SAA approved institution 
anywhere in the Nation. This, and having met the requirements for 
licensure within the state, are the only requirements for an exemption 
from the two-year rule. A truck driving school could request immediate 
approval of a ``branch'' campus anywhere in the nation, and the SAA of 
jurisdiction would have no records (graduation rate, CDL pass rate, or 
job placement) to determine the approvability of the program. SAAs view 
their role as the gatekeepers of quality, and the defenders of the 
integrity of the GI Bill. When we review a program for approval, 
particularly at a new location, curriculum is only one factor we 
review. We ensure that only programs that demonstrate quality 
educational outcomes for students are accepted, and do so through the 
review of instructor qualifications, administration, equipment, 
classrooms, and technical ability to administer the program. These 
factors can vary widely from one location to another (particularly from 
one state to another) and it is important, to determine program 
success, that we have some record of success to review and evaluate.
    NASAA respectfully suggests that this legislation be amended so 
that the only institutions which may apply for any waiver from the 
requirements of the two-year rule are those within the same state as 
the initial campus upon which the institution bases its application to 
the SAA of jurisdiction. This means that one location must be approved 
in the state under the two-year rule before any branch campuses can be 
approved under any type of waiver. Also, we strongly suggest that the 
legislation provides that institutions must show a history of having 
provided the program at that location for a set period of time, 6 
months to 1 year, or a set number of classes with at least 80 percent 
of graduates obtaining CDL licensure within one month of graduation.
    NASAA opposes this bill in its present form.

H.R._-``Transparency for Student Veterans Act of 2023''.

    This bill amends 3698 Comprehensive policy on providing information 
to veterans such that the information provided now includes median 
amount of debt from Title IV programs of education leading to a 
certificate or professional licensure at an approved Institution of 
Higher Learning. Likewise, the information provided to veterans and 
members of the Armed Forces will now include the rates at which 
veterans and active-duty members enroll after the first year 
(continuation rate) and the rates at which the graduate (completion 
rate) from both degree and certificate programs. The bill requires that 
veterans and service members also be provided the average annual salary 
for those who complete the approved program.
    NASAA agrees that providing this data to prospective student 
veterans and service members allows them to make more informed choices 
about which school would be the best fit for them as well as ensuring 
they have better opportunities to complete their educational goals.
    NASAA supports this bill.

H.R. 3816--``Veterans' Entry to Apprenticeship Act''

    This bill provides that Pre-Apprenticeship programs may be approved 
for GI Bill benefits and allows veterans to enroll in these programs as 
set forward with the requirements prescribed within the bill. While 
NASAA agrees with the purpose of this bill, we suggest that safeguards 
be added to protect veterans enrolled in these programs. First, we 
propose that only those pre-apprenticeship programs which are 
vocational in nature be considered for approval. In 2012, the US 
Department of Labor issued Training and Employment Notice 12-12, which 
outlines the definition of a quality Pre-Apprenticeship Program. NASAA 
believes that approval of any program for GI Bill benefits should meet 
these same standards as a metric of demonstrating quality training is 
occurring within the program. Likewise, we would like to see a 
requirement that these programs, to be approved, not only be required 
to demonstrate that the program will provide an individual with the 
skills and competencies needed to enroll in an apprenticeship program, 
but that they also demonstrate a record of success in placing veterans 
into a registered apprenticeship program at an acceptable rate for the 
industry involved (at least 80 percent) within six months of completion 
of the pre-apprenticeship program. Finally, pre apprenticeship 
graduates who move onto a full apprenticeship program must be granted 
prior credit and advanced standing by the apprenticeship program.
    NASAA supports this bill with suggested amendments.

H.R. 5914--To amend title 38, United States Code, to improve the 
processes to approve programs of education for purposes of the 
educational assistance programs of the Department of Veterans Affairs, 
and for other purposes.

    This bill addresses the need for veterans to seamlessly access 
their hard-earned education benefits to facilitate a successful 
transition to civilian life. Sadly, some recent legislative mandates, 
particularly those requiring all educational institutions to provide 
individualized shopping sheets, while intended to provide transparency, 
have instead become, in some instances, an administrative burden 
preventing veterans from accessing their education benefits. 
Additionally, varying interpretations of rules and inconsistent 
guidance has caused a communication gap between Department of Veteran 
Affairs (VA) and School Certifying Officials (SCOs).
    This legislation amends the requirement for a shopping sheet to 
state that SAAs will only disapprove programs when facilities fail to 
provide certain forms ``to the maximum extent possible.'' Also, this 
legislation requires a centralized communication platform for improved 
communication between VA and SCOs. NASAA believes this new language 
will address those issues by providing flexibility to institutions, 
such as police academies, truck driving schools and other approved NCD 
institutions, while still providing adequate safeguards for veterans 
and their families.
    NASAA supports this bill.

Conclusion

    Mr. Chairman, today, fifty-two SAAs, composed of approximately 215 
professional and support personnel are supervising over 13,000 active 
facilities with almost 220,000 programs. We are extremely grateful for 
the opportunity to once again appear before this committee to share our 
positions on the important legislation before the Committee. We remain 
committed to working closely with our VA partners, VSO stakeholders and 
educational institutions on these and other initiatives designed to 
protect the quality and the integrity of the various GI Bill programs 
and the Veterans and family members who have sacrificed so much for 
this great Nation. I thank you again for this opportunity and I look 
forward to answering any questions that you or committee members may 
have.
                                 ______
                                 

                  Prepared Statement of Michael Hazard

    Good afternoon, Chairman Van Orden and Members of the Committee. My 
name is Mike Hazard, and I am employed by the United Association of 
Journeymen and Apprentices of the Plumbing and Pipe Fitting Industry of 
the United States and Canada (``UA'') as the Program Manager of the 
UA's Veterans in Piping Training Program (``VIP Program''). I want to 
thank the Committee for giving me the opportunity today to share the 
success we've had at the UA VIP Program in helping transitioning 
service men and women prepare for a career in the plumbing and 
pipefitting industries, and to offer the UA's views on several bills 
currently being considered by this Committee.
    First, I would like to briefly share some information about my 
background and the important work we do at the UA VIP Program. I first 
joined the UA as a pipe tradesman in Santa Barbara, California in 1987. 
Soon after that, however, I placed my UA career on hold and joined the 
United States Navy, where I proudly served as an Aviation Rescue 
Swimmer and H-46 Helicopter Mechanic for 11 years.
    I was honorably discharged from the Navy in 1999 while holding the 
rank of Petty Officer First Class.
    Following my discharge from the Navy, I was able to pick up where I 
had left off at the UA and returned to work as a journeyman pipefitter. 
After working in the field for several years, I was offered and 
accepted a position as a Training Coordinator for a regional 
apprenticeship program in Southern California, where I facilitated 
plumbing and pipe fitting training for over 10,000 UA members. I was 
promoted to Executive Director of this training fund in 2008, which is 
the position I held until I accepted my current position at the UA in 
2012.
    In my current position, I manage the day-to-day operations of the 
nine UA VIP training sites located on seven military bases across the 
United States. Under the VIP program, the UA offers departing service 
men and women from all branches of the military the opportunity to 
participate in an intensive, eighteen-week training program on base 
which they receive at no cost to either the government or the student. 
The VIP Program offers courses in Fire Suppression, Pipe Fitting/
Welding, and Heating, Ventilation, Air Conditioning and Refrigeration 
(HVAC-R). When training is successfully completed, the graduates are 
guaranteed a job and are placed in one of the UA's best-in-class, 
``gold standard'' apprenticeship programs with advanced credit toward 
the completion of their apprenticeship. Since its inception, I am proud 
to state that the UA VIP Program has provided apprenticeship 
opportunities to over 3,170 military veterans.
    Data prepared by the Department of Labor shows that the average 
annual compensation received by the graduate of a registered 
apprenticeship program, included the UA training programs affiliated 
with the VIP Program, is significantly higher than the average annual 
earnings of an individual holding a Bachelor's or Associate's degree. 
The DOL also reports that 90 percent of individuals who complete a 
registered apprenticeship program retain their employment. These 
findings allow me to confidently say that the UA VIP Program is 
designed to place departing servicemembers on a path to a successful 
and sustainable career.
    I know from my own personal experience how valuable it can be when 
transitioning back to civilian life to feel that an organization like 
the UA has your back. Reconnecting with my UA brothers and sisters and 
taking advantage of the work opportunities in this thriving industry 
certainly made the transition more manageable for me. It has therefore 
been deeply meaningful for me in my current position to be able to 
provide a similar experience to other veterans by connecting departing 
servicemembers with both the training opportunities and support systems 
provided by the UA VIP Program.
    With this background behind me, I will now summarize the UA's views 
regarding several bills currently being considered by this Committee. 
First, the UA would like to express its strong support for several 
pending bills mentioned in the hearing invitation I received. These 
include H.R. 3601, the Student Veteran Work Modernization Act, H.R. 
5190, the Military Family Protection from Debt Act, the draft bill 
proposing to modify the requirements of the Edith Nourse Rogers STEM 
Scholarship, and the draft bill proposing to waive certain fees that 
are charged in connection with housing loans guaranteed by the 
Secretary of Veterans' Affairs.
    Two of these bills--H.R. 3601 and the draft bill regarding the 
Edith Nourse Rogers STEM Scholarship--will expand educational 
opportunities for departing servicemembers by expanding veteran 
eligibility for these important benefits. The other two bills I 
mentioned will help provide financial security to veterans and military 
families by waiving certain fees charged by the Department of Veteran 
Affairs in connection with housing loan guarantees provided by that 
agency, and by extending debt protections currently enjoyed by 
servicemembers and their spouses to other dependents of the 
servicemembers. These are measured, common-sense reforms that will 
provide tangible benefits to veterans and military families and which 
we believe can receive broad, bipartisan support.
    On the other hand, I would also like to take this opportunity to 
express the UA's opposition to the draft bill titled ``Consolidating 
Veteran Employment Services for Improved Performance Act of 2023.'' 
Broadly speaking, this bill would transfer the work performed by the 
VETs office at the Department of Labor to the Department of Veterans' 
Affairs. While I am sure this bill is well-intentioned, I believe that 
it is misguided and would not advance the interests of transitioning 
service members. The VA has a very important mission, but--unlike the 
DOL--job creation isn't typically understood as being a significant 
part of that mission. I therefore believe that the DOL is and should 
continue to be an important partner for the VA in providing training 
and employment opportunities to veterans.
    I personally have been working with the DOL VETs office for 15 
years, and during that time, I have consistently been impressed by the 
workforce development experts that are working there. These are 
individuals who take the time to actually go out and talk to veterans 
to learn more about their experiences and challenges. It has been my 
experience that, owing to the efforts of the VETs office, there is good 
cross-agency communication between the DOL, the VA, and the Department 
of Defense, and that the separate programs administered by these 
agencies are not unnecessarily siloed off. It is also my experience 
that the DOL VETs office plays an important role in connecting veterans 
with the apprenticeship programs that are also registered with the DOL. 
Therefore, I believe that changing the structure of the DOL VETs office 
in the manner proposed could result in much more harm than good, and I 
would therefore ask the Committee not to move forward on that 
particular effort.
    In conclusion, I would like to thank the Committee again for this 
opportunity, and I am prepared to answer any questions the Members of 
the Committee may have for me.

                       Statements for the Record

                              ----------                              


               Prepared Statement of The American Legion
[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT] 


            Prepared Statement of Veterans Education Project
[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT] 

            Prepared Statement of Veterans Education Success

    Chairman Van Orden, Ranking Member Levin, and Members of the 
Subcommittee:

    We thank you for the opportunity to share this statement for 
consideration during this hearing, which includes many notable bills 
addressing topics in higher education and veterans education benefits. 
Veterans Education Success is a nonprofit organization with the mission 
of advancing higher education success for veterans, service members, 
and military families, and protecting the integrity and promise of the 
GI Bill and other federal education programs.
    In this statement, we address the following legislative proposals: 
Transparency for Student Veterans Act, draft language on the Edith 
Nourse Rogers STEM Scholarship, draft language on a repository of 
guidance from the U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs (VA), Expanding 
Access for Online Veteran Students Act, and a proposal to establish the 
Veterans Economic Opportunity and Transition Administration at VA.
    We applaud the Subcommittee's dedication to our Nation's veterans, 
and look forward to working closely with the staff members on the 
advancement of many of these important topics for broader 
consideration.

H.R.--, Transparency for Student Veterans Act

    This bill would require VA to disclose additional information about 
schools to prospective student veterans, including data specifically 
about veterans and service members who used VA educational assistance. 
This would include data such as retention and completion rates, average 
length of time for obtaining a credential, and average annual salary. 
The bill also modifies the median debt calculation to include the debt 
associated with certificate/professional licensure programs.
    The bill would also direct VA to work with other federal agencies 
to obtain outcomes information for students eligible for veterans 
educational benefits. We have been long--time champions of providing 
student veterans with the necessary information and resources to make 
the most of their earned benefits and advance their career goals.\1\
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \1\ Veterans Education Success, ``Statement for the Record 
Submitted to the Senate Committee on Veterans Affairs 118th Congress, 
First Session - Veterans Education Success,'' Veterans Education 
Success, April 24, 2023, https://vetsedsuccess.org/statement-for-the-
record-submitted-to-the-senate-committee-on-veterans-affairs-118th-
congress-first-session/.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    From a technical standpoint, we would like to offer some feedback 
for consideration regarding how the term ``covered education'' is used 
in the text. ``Covered education'' is defined with reference to 38 
U.S.C. Sec. 3691A, which provides that ``covered education'' is ``a 
course of education (A) at an institution of higher education; and (B) 
paid with educational assistance furnished under a law administered by 
the Secretary.'' Requesting data for ``covered education'' might 
include individuals who used VA benefits for only a portion of their 
education.
    An individual may not have sufficient educational assistance to pay 
for their entire education and may use VA educational assistance to pay 
for only a portion of their education. Some of the data points do not 
seem to consider this possibility, which may lead to confusion and 
inaccurate information being provided. For example, the data point on 
the rate at which veterans and service members ``complete covered 
education'' could be interpreted in two ways: 1. The rate at which 
veterans complete a degree that is completely paid with VA educational 
assistance; 2. The rate at which they complete the portion of their 
degree that is paid with VA educational assistance. We think the 
current text of this bill is ambiguous on which interpretation would be 
correct and could result in VA providing the incorrect data.
    Similarly, the data points on the ``average length of time'' for a 
veteran ``to complete covered education at the institution'' would seem 
to include the periods when only a portion of the education is paid 
with VA educational assistance. Unless the data points are clarified, 
the bill could lead VA to generate misleading information about the 
success rate of veterans in completing their education.
    Despite these technical considerations, we offer our support for 
the intent of this legislation, and hope to work with Congress to 
advance this measure.

H.R. 3601, Student Veteran Work Study Modernization Act

    The bill institutes a five-year pilot program that would expand the 
existing provisions related to the work-study program for students 
under the Veteran Readiness and Employment (VR&E) program. Currently, 
individuals must be pursuing programs at a rate of at least three-
quarters of a full-time student. The pilot program would expand it to 
individuals pursuing a program at a rate of half of a full-time 
student. The bill also institutes a reporting requirement and 
references how to determine the budgetary effects.
    We recognize the importance and value of the work-study program 
available through VA for student veterans to supplement their income 
while pursuing their training and education goals. We support extending 
this program to VR&E students to afford them opportunities to engage in 
activities supporting their income, and we support this legislation.

H.R.--, To amend title 38, United States Code, to modify the 
requirements of the Edith Nourse Rogers STEM Scholarship

    This bill would make several changes to the Edith Nourse Rogers 
STEM scholarship to make the scholarship more accessible to student 
veterans intending to make use of the program, including:

      Expand the list of eligible degrees to include graduate 
degrees.

      Lower the number of credit hours required to qualify for 
the scholarship.

      Add new priority groups for students who have used the 
most months of assistance and students pursuing a qualifying post-
secondary degree.

    Expanding the list of eligible degrees to include graduate degrees 
would provide additional flexibility in the program, but should be 
monitored to ensure that utilization by officers for graduate studies 
does not come at the expense of enlisted seeking undergraduate degrees. 
One technical issue is that the credit hour requirement in the current 
statute (38 USC Sec.  3320(B)(3)(a)(i)) may need to be revised to 
include graduate programs.
    We also believe that lowering the number of completed credit hours 
required to qualify for the scholarship would increase participation. 
However, we encourage the Subcommittee to consider readdressing these 
changes if future utilization rates balance significantly in favor of 
graduate students and officers, as they are not the original target 
audience of the program.
    Finally, adding new priority groups for students who have used the 
most months of assistance and students pursuing a qualifying post-
secondary degree would ensure that the scholarship is awarded to 
students who are most in need of financial assistance.
    We support the passage of this legislation, and look forward to 
working with the Committee on this bill.

H.R.--, To amend title, United States Code, to improve the processes to 
approve programs of education for purposes of the educational 
assistance programs of the Department of Veterans Affairs, and for 
other purposes;

    The bill proposes changes related to consumer information 
requirements for schools, and the establishment of a website for school 
certifying official (SCO) training information by VA. Section 1(a) 
reduces the requirement that schools provide certain consumer 
information to prospective students by inserting ``to the maximum 
extent practicable.'' Section 1(b) requires VA to establish a website 
for publishing information about SCO training the Department provides.
    Section 1(a). Currently under 38 U.S.C. Sec. 3679(f)(1)(A), schools 
risk losing VA approval if they do not provide individuals with a form 
containing certain information before enrollment.\2\ These disclosures 
include reasonable and necessary information for student veteran 
decision-making, including:
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \2\ 38 U.S.C. Sec.  3679 (2023). https://www.law.cornell.edu/
uscode/text/38/3679.

      The estimated total cost of the course, including 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
tuition, fees, books, supplies, and any other additional costs;

      An estimate of the cost for living expenses for students 
enrolled in the course;

      The amount of the costs under clauses (i) and (ii) that 
are covered by the educational assistance provided to the individual 
under chapter 30, 31, 32, 33, or 35 of this title, or chapter 1606 or 
1607 of title 10, as the case may be;

      The type and amount of Federal financial aid not 
administered by the Secretary and financial aid offered by the 
institution that the individual may qualify to receive;

      An estimate of the amount of student loan debt the 
individual would have upon graduation;

      Information regarding graduation rates;

      Job-placement rates for graduates of the course, if 
available;

      Information regarding the acceptance by the institution 
of transfer of credits, including military credits;

      Any conditions or additional requirements, including 
training, experience, or examinations, required to obtain the license, 
certification, or approval for which the course of education is 
designed to provide preparation; and

      Other information to facilitate comparison by the 
individual of aid packages offered by different educational 
institutions.

    The bill modifies the schools' obligations in Section 3679(f)(1)(A) 
by inserting that the information is provided only ``to the maximum 
extent practicable.'' However, ``to the maximum extent practicable'' is 
a subjective and yielding standard that would make the disclosures 
essentially unenforceable, removing an important protection for 
veterans. We believe that the information currently required is 
necessary for veterans to make the best decision about where to spend 
their hard-earned GI Bill benefits.
    Inserting the phrase ``to the maximum extent practicable'' seems to 
elevate the convenience of the schools above the interests of the 
veterans and could result in student veterans generally being denied 
important information. Further, without a firm obligation to provide 
the information, bad actors may seize the opportunity to withhold 
critical information and mislead student veterans into enrolling in a 
program.
    Clearly the information in Section 3679 is information student 
veterans would benefit from before they decide to enroll in a school. 
VA-approved schools should continue to be required to provide the 
information, as it is all information that should be known to the 
schools. If there were a specific piece of information that schools 
widely are unable to provide for reasons outside of their control, then 
updating the statute to address that specific disclosure would be a 
more precise course of action. We oppose Section 1(a) of the bill.
    Section 1(b). In a recent Economic Opportunity Subcommittee 
hearing, it became abundantly clear that there is a lack of access to 
historical guidance from VA's Education Service Office.\3\ We believe 
all guidance from VA, including historical notices, is highly valuable 
- and indeed, extremely necessary - for SCOs to access.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \3\ U.S. House of Representatives Veterans' Affairs Subcommittee on 
Economic Opportunity. Oversight Hearing, ``Less is More: The Impact of 
Bureaucratic Red Tape on Veterans Education Benefits,'' (September 20, 
2023, https://veterans.house.gov/calendar/
eventsingle.aspx?EventID=6258.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Like any role on campus, the SCO function is subject to turnover in 
personnel, so having a consolidated and accurate repository of this 
information would afford additional continuity on campus, and support 
the overall administration of education benefits. In addition to SCOs, 
university officials, veterans advocates, and Congress would all 
benefit from greater transparency and access to this information. We 
fully support this section of the bill, and would be eager to advocate 
in favor of advancing this section of the legislation.

H.R. 5702, Expanding Access for Online Veteran Students Act

    The bill would increase the housing allowance for solely online 
students attending a summer course less than 12 weeks, giving them a 
housing allowance equal to the national average.
    We believe the significant federal costs of increasing MHA for 
online-only students should not be the top spending priority for the 
Subcommittee, given existing and more compelling unmet needs of 
veterans. We urge the Subcommittee to set aside this bill and instead 
prioritize issues such as veterans who need GI Bill Parity for Guard 
and Reserve service, Survivors and Dependents Chapter 35 improvements, 
and restoring the GI Bill for defrauded student veterans.
    On the substance, the bill brings serious adverse consequences for 
veterans. We believe that a common principle we can collectively agree 
to is the desire to support veterans and their families. In doing so, 
we further believe it is important to consider the second and third 
order effects of these policies, and to anticipate their adverse 
unintended consequences. In this instance, we strongly caution Congress 
about such a shift in policy, and recommend considering the following 
associated impacts:

          Incentivizing Students to Leave Flagship Public 
        Universities. This bill would incentivize veterans to leave 
        high-quality, flagship public universities in low-housing cost 
        states - such as Arizona, Indiana, Kentucky, South Carolina, 
        and Wisconsin - to attend lower-quality online-only college 
        chains due to the housing allowance being higher. Current 
        housing allowance rates for in-person and hybrid learners are 
        based on the Department of Defense's (DOD) housing allowance 
        rates (BAH) for an ``E-5 with dependents.'' \4\ DOD recognizes 
        339 different housing allowance zones. Over sixty percent of 
        these DOD BAH zones have housing costs less than the national 
        average. In some of the least expensive zones, the housing 
        allowance is one-half the national average.\5\ Student veterans 
        in 206 zones would receive more housing allowance by attending 
        an online-only school.
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    \4\ U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs, ``Post-9/11 GI Bill 
(Chapter 33): How does VA determine my monthly housing allowance 
(MHA)?'' (2023), www.va.gov/education/about-gi-bill-benefits/post-9-11/
#how-does-va-determine-my-month.
    \5\ Defense Travel Management Office, ``Basic Allowance for Housing 
Rate Lookup,'' (2023) https://www.travel.dod.mil/allowances/basic-
allowance-for-housing/bah-rate-lookup/.

        Even if this bill limits the timeframe to the summer term, a 
        potential increase of $3,000 or more would be a powerful 
        economic factor for students to incentivize students to switch 
        to a solely online college. Furthermore, veterans switching 
        from public colleges and universities to online-only college 
        chains would receive a lower-quality education. The existing 
        unbiased research regarding distance learning has documented 
        better outcomes for in-person education when compared to online 
        education.\6\ Certainly, more investigation is needed before 
        Congress acts to prioritize online programs and incentivize 
        student veterans to attend online colleges.
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    \6\ See, e.g., Stephanie Riegg Cellini, Brookings Institution, 
``How Does Virtual Learning Impact Students in Higher Education'' (Aug. 
13, 2021), https://www.brookings.edu/blog/brown-center-chalkboard/2021/
08/13/how-does-virtual-learning-impact-students-in-higher-education/.

          Marketing Tool for Bad Actors. Low-quality and 
        predatory schools would use the availability of an increased 
        housing allowance as a selling point to target veterans to 
        attend predatory and exploitative programs. In the aftermath of 
        having finally closed the 90/10 loophole, a shift to a full 
        housing allowance for solely online colleges would re-establish 
        veterans as a target for unscrupulous schools; many of these 
        schools have been sued by law enforcement and fined by federal 
        agencies for defrauding students, and can reasonably be 
        expected to abuse this change.\7\
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    \7\ People of the State of California v. Ashford University, 
et.al., 37-2018-00046134-CU-MC-CTL, Statement of Decision (hereinafter, 
``Order''), filed March 3, 2022, available at https://oag.ca.gov/
system/files/attachments/press-docs/37-2018-00046134-CU-MC-CTL_KROA-
696_03-03-22_Statement_of_Decision_1646669688827.pdf.

          Increasing Overall Costs. We believe that much of the 
        potential enrollment shift incentivized by the higher housing 
        allowance would be from low-tuition public institutions to 
        high-tuition private ones, driving up costs not only for VA, 
        but also for the very students veterans that the bill seeks to 
        help. Much of our work with veterans seeking our support 
        involves speaking with former students who were recruited 
        through high-pressure sales tactics. These students were often 
        led to believe that their GI Bill benefits would cover all 
        costs, only to find themselves heavily in debt as the schools 
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        exhausted their benefits and forced them to borrow.

          Undermining the Rationale for Online Education. Such 
        a change would also undermine the original intent of Congress 
        that established a lower housing allowance for solely online 
        study as being meant to accommodate the additional employment 
        flexibility and convenience that distance education is intended 
        to provide non-traditional students.\8\ Entirely online courses 
        are typically designed to allow students to continue working 
        while enrolled. The lower housing allowance provided to solely 
        online students therefore reflects this central distinction 
        from in-person students; setting it at the same or greater rate 
        as for in-person students would overlook meaningful differences 
        in expenses and opportunity costs incurred by students enrolled 
        in the two distinct modes of delivery.
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    \8\ U.S. Senate Report 111-346, ``POST-9/11 VETERANS EDUCATIONAL 
ASSISTANCE IMPROVEMENTS ACT OF 2010,'' (2010), https://
www.Congress.gov/congressional-report/111th-congress/senate-report/346/
1.

    At the onset of the COVID public health emergency, when many 
institutions had to move their classes online, we supported the 
Veterans' Affairs Committees' work to change the housing policy to 
allow students enrolled in online courses to continue to receive 100 
percent of their residential monthly housing allowance.\9\ This 
temporary policy was intended to accommodate the significant additional 
housing costs that in-person students had already incurred when the 
pandemic forced them to go online.
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    \9\ Public Law 116-140, ``Student Veteran Coronavirus Response Act 
of 2020,'' 116th Congress, 2nd Session, (2020) https://
www.Congress.gov/116/plaws/publ140/PLAW-116publ140.pdf.
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    At the time, Congress chose not to complicate its effort to provide 
relief to such students by making distinctions between those student 
veterans who were already enrolled entirely online versus those who 
were forced into online delivery due to the pandemic. This, despite the 
fact that it was always understood that students enrolled in in-person 
courses were incurring additional housing and opportunity costs not 
incurred by online students.
    Today, colleges are back in-person, and proper policy should revert 
to status quo ante by acknowledging the higher housing costs incurred 
by students attending in-person. We urge the Subcommittee not to move 
forward with this legislation. We believe a near-term solution would be 
for Congress to direct the execution of an unbiased study of online 
learning outcomes as it pertains to Title 38 veterans education 
benefits.

H.R. 3738, To amend title 38, United States Code, to establish in the 
Department of Veterans Affairs the Veterans Economic Opportunity and 
Transition Administration, and for other purposes

    This measure proposes the creation of a ``Veterans Economic 
Opportunity and Transition Administration'' within VA, overseen by a 
new Under Secretary. The purpose of this new Administration would be to 
manage and administer various programs focused on delivering economic 
opportunity benefits to veterans and their dependents and survivors. 
The bill would also require the Secretary to provide an annual report 
to Congress on the programs administered by the Under Secretary for 
Veterans Economic Opportunity and Transition.
    Various versions of this legislation have been proposed over more 
than the past decade. Notably, several iterations of this proposal have 
passed the House of Representatives, but none has been successful in 
passing the Senate.\10\ One previous sticking point had been the 
inclusion of a provision which would have moved the U.S. Department of 
Labor (DoL) Veterans' Employment and Training Service (VETS) program 
under the proposed new Administration within VA. This current 
legislation makes no such proposal.
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    \10\ Six iterations of this legislation have been proposed over the 
past 15 years, including H.R. 2494 (117th Congress), H.R. 2045 (116th 
Congress), H.R. 5644 (115th Congress), H.R. 2327 (113th Congress), H.R. 
2481 (113th Congress), and H.R. 3719 (111th Congress); on three 
occasions, the legislation passed the U.S. House of Representatives 
unanimously, including HRs 2494, 2045, and 2481. https://
www.Congress.gov/.
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    Historical support for various iterations of this legislation have 
included the Veterans of Foreign Wars (VFW), Disabled American Veterans 
(DAV), Vietnam Veterans of America (VVA), American Veterans (AMVETS), 
Paralyzed Veterans of America (PVA), and Student Veterans of America 
(SVA).\11\ The concept has also been previously endorsed in the annual 
Independent Budget produced by DAV, PVA, and VFW.\12\ We believe this 
support stems from the overall recognition that the Veterans Benefits 
Administration (VBA) continues to struggle in its competing missions of 
delivering disability compensation benefits and a wide variety of 
economic opportunity benefits such as the GI Bill.
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    \11\ Hubbard, William, ``Testimony of Mr. William Hubbard, Chief of 
Staff, Student Veterans of America,'' Apr. 30, 2019, https://
www.Congress.gov/116/meeting/house/109320/witnesses/HHRG-116-VR10-
Wstate-HubbardW-20190430.pdf.
    \12\ Independent Budget,https://www.independentbudget.org/wp-
content/uploads/2023/02/TIB-EAE1-Create-an-Economic-Opportunity-
Administration-Within-The-Department-of-Veteran-Affairs-VA.pdf.
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    In 2018, VBA established the Office of Transition and Economic 
Development (TED), now referred to as Outreach, Transition and Economic 
Development (OTED), in response to previous proposals similar to this 
legislation.\13\, \14\ The establishment of that office 
represented an acknowledgement that VBA had been structurally 
unprepared to respond to the modern needs of veterans when it comes to 
transition and economic opportunity. We believe much of the office is 
geared toward transition more so than economic opportunity and tools of 
empowerment such as the GI Bill.\15\
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    \13\ Devlin, Margarita, ``Statement of Margarita Devlin, Principal 
Deputy Under Secretary for Benefits, Veterans Benefits Administration, 
Department of Veterans Affairs, before the House Committee on Veterans' 
Affairs Subcommittee on Economic Opportunity,'' Apr. 9, 2019, https://
www.congress.gov/116/meeting/house/109258/witnesses/HHRG-116-VR10-
Wstate-DevlinM-20190409.pdf.
    \14\ U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs, ``Outreach, Transition 
and Economic Development,'' https://benefits.va.gov/transition/
index.asp.
    \15\ Rawls, Cheryl, ``Statement of Ms. Cheryl Rawls, Executive 
Director, Outreach, Transition and Economic Development Service 
Department of Veterans Affairs before the Subcommittee on Disability 
Assistance and Memorial Affairs Committee on Veterans' Affairs U.S. 
House of Representatives,'' Feb. 8, 2022, https://docs.house.gov/
meetings/VR/VR09/20220208/114386/HHRG-117-VR09-Wstate-RawlsC-20220208-
U1.pdf.
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    Despite the existence of this office for the past five years, 
significant barriers remain when it comes to economic opportunity for 
veterans. Delays in benefits distribution occurred recently and raise 
questions about broader systemic issues.\16\, \17\ Veterans 
should never be exposed to doubt whether or not they will be able to 
pay rent in a given month.
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    \16\ U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs, ``Important Update About 
GI Bill Monthly Payments for Students,'' Mar. 31, 2023, https://
content.govdelivery.com/accounts/USVAVBA/bulletins/3522215.
    \17\ U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs, ``Update on Post 9/11 GI 
Bill MHA Delayed Payment for March 2023,'' Apr. 19, 2023, https://
content.govdelivery.com/accounts/USVAVBA/bulletins/355e1e1.
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    Furthermore, VA's attention to implementing critical consumer 
protection laws has been inconsistent, or entirely lacking in certain 
instances, over the past several decades. For example, VA's inadequate 
implementation of 38 U.S.C. 3696 prevents GI Bill beneficiaries from 
making an informed choice when deciding where to use their hard----
earned benefits, and undermines the integrity of the GI Bill by 
allowing schools that engage in fraud to receive taxpayer support.
    Even more troubling, schools including Alta (Westwood College), 
Corinthian, ITT, and former EDMC brands (Argosy, Art Institutes, South 
University) which engaged in deceptive advertising and enrollment 
tactics have closed precipitously, leaving beneficiaries without a 
degree after having wasted some or all of their benefits.\18\ We remain 
deeply concerned about the continued ability of predatory schools to 
defraud veterans out of their hard-earned GI Bill benefits. More recent 
examples of failing to provide adequate responses have included:
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    \18\ Veterans Education Success, ``VA Still Not Enforcing 1974 Ban 
on Schools that Engage in Deceptive Advertising and Recruiting,'' Oct. 
2019, https://vetsedsuccess.org/va-still-not-enforcing-1974-ban-on-
schools-that-engage-in-deceptive-advertising-and-recruiting/.

          House of Prayer. Last summer, the public widely 
        learned about the shocking allegations associated with a system 
        of schools misleadingly called House of Prayer Christian 
        Church.\19\ This case culminated in a raid by the Federal 
        Bureau of Investigation, a case we had reported to VA over 2 
        years prior.\20\, \21\
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    \19\ Beynon, Steve and Novelly, Thomas. ``How a Church Allegedly 
Scammed Millions in VA Money from Vets,'' Military.com, Jul. 19, 2022, 
https://www.military.com/daily news/2022/07/19/how-church-allegedly 
scammed-millions-va-money-vets.html.
    \20\ Koch, Alexandra, ``FBI raids Georgia churches near military 
bases, sources say church was targeting soldiers,'' USA Today, Jun. 24, 
2022, https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2022/06/24/fbi-raids-
house-prayer-churches/7724801001/.
    \21\ Veterans Education Success, ``Our Letter to VA and Georgia SAA 
Regarding House of Prayer Christian Church,'' Aug. 1, 2020, https://
vetsedsuccess.org/letter-to-va-and-georgia-saa-regarding-house-of-
prayer-christian-church/.

          Perdoceo. In 2021, we alerted VA to law enforcement's 
        concerns about the Perdoceo Education Corporation, formerly 
        known as the Career Education Corporation, encompassing 
        American Intercontinental University, Colorado Technical 
        University, California Southern University, and Trident 
        University International.\22\ Despite calling VA's attention to 
        enforcement actions and investigations by Federal and State 
        authorities, these schools remain eligible for GI Bill funding. 
        In 2019, 36 veterans and military service organizations wrote 
        to VA over similar concerns, and despite years of community-
        wide concerns, no meaningful action has been taken to date.\23\
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    \22\ Veterans Education Success, ``Summary of Veteran and 
Servicemember Student Complaints about Perdoceo Education 
Corporation,'' September 1st, 2021, https://vetsedsuccess.org/summary-
of-veteran-and-servicemember-student-complaints-about-perdoceo-
education-corporation/.
    \23\ Letter from Veterans and Military Service Organizations to the 
Secretary of the U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs, Feb. 14, 2019, 
https://static1.squarespace.com/static/556718b2e4b02e470eb1b186/t/
5c6db4db1905f4690dd06f6f/1550693596300/ VSO+Letter+to+VA+Secretary-
1.pdf.

          School Closures. In August 2021, we wrote a 
        memorandum to VA to establish our concern over the language on 
        its GI Bill Restoration Page.\24\, \25\ Under the 
        VETS Credit Act, veterans simply have to sign a declaration 
        that they understand that if they transfer 12 or more credits 
        they are ineligible to receive their full GI Bill 
        restoration.\26\ Despite this new law, VA continues to present 
        logistical hurdles for veterans to use the benefits they 
        earned.
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    \24\ Hubbard, William, ``Memorandum From William Hubbard to 
Department of Veterans Affairs on Changes to VBA Webpage,'' Aug. 17, 
2021, https://vetsedsuccess.org/memorandum-from-william-hubbard-to-
department-of-veterans-affairs-on-changes-to-vba-webpage/.
    \25\ U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs, ``Restoration of Benefits 
After School Closure or if a School is Disapproved for GI Bill 
Benefits,'' https://www.benefits.va.gov/GIBILL/Restoration.asp. Updated 
March 15, 2023.
    \26\ Veterans Education Success, Our Press Release: Senate Passes 
Important ``VETS Credit Act'' Unanimously, Bill Heads to the President 
for Signature,'' https://vetsedsuccess.org/our-press-release-senate-
passes-important-vets-credit-act-unanimously bill-heads-to-the-
president-for-signature/.

          FastTrain and Retail Ready Career Center. It is 
        unacceptable that veterans should have to wonder why obvious 
        scams like FastTrain College and Retail Ready Career Center 
        were approved in the first place.\27\ The VA's statutes 
        governing program approval are seriously outdated, referencing 
        classes taught ``by radio,'' and they continue to allow a low 
        standard of entry. Veterans should be able to count on VA's 
        ``stamp of approval'' as the level of quality they - and 
        taxpayers - expect.
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    \27\ Ayala, Eva-Marie, ``Hundreds of veterans scramble after 
Garland for-profit college closes,'' The Dallas Morning News, Sep 28, 
2017, https://www.dallasnews.com/news/education/2017/09/28/hundreds-of-
veterans-scramble-after-garland-for-profit-college-closes/.

    Our testimony is in no way intended to take away from the 
incredible work of the many hardworking VBA teams. In fact, quite the 
opposite. We believe these teams should be further empowered to achieve 
even greater success, and have seen that the current system in place 
does not set up for maximum success the dedicated staff of VBA. When 
these professionals are provided with the full opportunity to succeed, 
the end result is a more reliable and higher quality set of 
opportunities for the ultimate customer of VA: our Nation's veterans.
    It's possible a new Administration and Under Secretary could help 
to address these issues, though the premise remains untested. We 
encourage this Committee and Congress to heavily deliberate over the 
long-term implications of continuing with the current system, which is 
clearly inadequate. We believe this legislation is worth serious 
consideration and debate, so there may be progress toward providing all 
veterans with quality programs they deserve.

Conclusion

    Veterans Education Success sincerely appreciates the opportunity to 
express our views before this Subcommittee. We look forward to the 
discussion and review of these proposals, and we are grateful for the 
continued opportunities to collaborate on these topics.

 Information Required by Rule XI2(g)(4) of the House of Representatives

    Pursuant to Rule XI2(g)(4) of the House of Representatives, 
Veterans Education Success has not received any federal grants in 
fiscal year 2023, nor has it received any federal grants in the two 
previous Fiscal Years.

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