[House Hearing, 118 Congress]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]
THE IMPORTANCE OF PROTECTING
FEMALE ATHLETICS AND TITLE IX
=======================================================================
HEARING
BEFORE THE
SUBCOMMITTEE ON HEALTH CARE
AND FINANCIAL SERVICES
OF THE
COMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT
AND ACCOUNTABILITY
HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
ONE HUNDRED EIGHTEENTH CONGRESS
FIRST SESSION
__________
DECEMBER 5, 2023
__________
Serial No. 118-79
__________
Printed for the use of the Committee on Oversight and Accountability
[GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Available on: govinfo.gov
oversight.house.gov or
docs.house.gov
__________
U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE
54-311 PDF WASHINGTON : 2024
COMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT AND ACCOUNTABILITY
JAMES COMER, Kentucky, Chairman
Jim Jordan, Ohio Jamie Raskin, Maryland, Ranking
Mike Turner, Ohio Minority Member
Paul Gosar, Arizona Eleanor Holmes Norton, District of
Virginia Foxx, North Carolina Columbia
Glenn Grothman, Wisconsin Stephen F. Lynch, Massachusetts
Gary Palmer, Alabama Gerald E. Connolly, Virginia
Clay Higgins, Louisiana Raja Krishnamoorthi, Illinois
Pete Sessions, Texas Ro Khanna, California
Andy Biggs, Arizona Kweisi Mfume, Maryland
Nancy Mace, South Carolina Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, New York
Jake LaTurner, Kansas Katie Porter, California
Pat Fallon, Texas Cori Bush, Missouri
Byron Donalds, Florida Shontel Brown, Ohio
Scott Perry, Pennsylvania Jimmy Gomez, California
William Timmons, South Carolina Melanie Stansbury, New Mexico
Tim Burchett, Tennessee Robert Garcia, California
Marjorie Taylor Greene, Georgia Maxwell Frost, Florida
Lisa McClain, Michigan Summer Lee, Pennsylvania
Lauren Boebert, Colorado Greg Casar, Texas
Russell Fry, South Carolina Jasmine Crockett, Texas
Anna Paulina Luna, Florida Dan Goldman, New York
Nick Langworthy, New York Jared Moskowitz, Florida
Eric Burlison, Missouri Rashida Tlaib, Michigan
Vacancy
Vacancy
------
Mark Marin, Staff Director
Jessica Donlon, Deputy Staff Director and General Counsel
Tyler Sanderson, Senior Counsel
Mallory Cogar, Deputy Director of Operations and Chief Clerk
Contact Number: 202-225-5074
Julie Tagen, Minority Staff Director
Contact Number: 202-225-5051
------
Subcommittee on Health Care and Financial Services
Lisa McClain, Michigan, Chairwoman
Paul Gosar, Arizona Katie Porter, California Ranking
Virginia Foxx, North Carolina Minority Member
Glenn Grothman, Wisconsin Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, New York
Russell Fry, South Carolina Jimmy Gomez, California
Anna Paulina Luna, Florida Greg Casar, Texas
Nick Langworthy, New York Summer Lee, Pennsylvania
Eric Burlison, Missouri Jasmine Crockett, Texas
Vacancy Vacancy
C O N T E N T S
----------
Page
Hearing held on December 5, 2023................................. 1
Witnesses
----------
Ms. Riley Gaines, Ambassador, Independent Women's Forum, Former
University of Kentucky Collegiate Athlete
Oral Statement................................................... 5
Ms. Sarah Parshall Perry, Senior Legal Fellow, Edwin Meese III
Center for Legal and Judicial Studies, The Heritage Foundation
Oral Statement................................................... 7
Ms. Kim Russell, Ambassador, Independent Women's Forum, Former
Head of Women's Lacrosse Coach, Oberlin College
Oral Statement................................................... 10
Ms. Fatima Goss Graves (Minority Witness), President and CEO,
National Women's Law Center
Oral Statement................................................... 12
Written opening statements and statements for the witnesses are
available on the U.S. House of Representatives Document
Repository at: docs.house.gov.
Index of Documents
----------
* Report, NCAA, State of Women in College Sports; submitted by
Rep. Casar.
* Report, WSF Title IX at 50; submitted by Rep. Casar.
* Athlete Statements for the Record; submitted by Rep. Lee.
* Statement for Record, NCTE; submitted by Rep. Lee.
* Report, British Journal of Sports Medicine, ``Effect of
Gender Affirming Hormones on Athletic Performance''; submitted
by Rep. Lee.
* Roe v. Utah High School Activities Assn.; submitted by Rep.
Lee.
* Article, Daily Signal, ``School Assigned Girl to Sleep with
Boy''; submitted by Rep. McClain.
* Legal Memo, The Heritage Foundation, ``Dept of Ed Revision of
Title IX Fails''; submitted by Rep. McClain.
* Legal Memo, The Heritage Foundation, ``Once More with
Feeling''; submitted by Rep. McClain.
* Report, IWF, Competition--2nd Edition; submitted by Rep.
McClain.
* Statement for the Record, NCAA; submitted by Rep. McClain.
* Article, The Advocate, ``Judge Blocks Utah Trans Sport'';
submitted by Rep. Takano.
* Letter, from Gov. Spencer Cox, March 22, 2022; submitted by
Rep. Takano.
Documents are available at: docs.house.gov.
THE IMPORTANCE OF PROTECTING
FEMALE ATHLETICS AND TITLE IX
----------
Tuesday, December 5, 2023
House of Representatives
Committee on Oversight and Accountability
Subcommittee on Health Care And Financial Services
Washington, D.C.
The Subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 3:12 p.m., in
room 2154, Rayburn House Office Building, Hon. Lisa C. McClain
[Chairwoman of the Subcommittee] presiding.
Present: Representatives McClain, Gosar, Foxx, Grothman,
Fry, Luna, Langworthy, Burlison, Ocasio-Cortez, Casar, Lee, and
Crockett.
Also present: Representatives Jordan, Sessions, Burchett,
Greene, Waltz, LaMalfa, Takano, and Robert Garcia of
California.
Mrs. McClain. The hearing of the Subcommittee on Healthcare
and Financial Services will come to order.
Welcome, everyone.
Without objection, the Chair may declare a recess at any
time.
I recognize myself for the purpose of making an opening
statement.
Wait. One second. Oh, we are missing a witness. We are
missing a witness.
[Recess.]
Mrs. McClain. I am sorry about that.
I recognize myself for the purpose of making an opening
statement.
Quite simply, men do not belong in women's sports. Let me
say it one more time. Men do not belong in women's sports.
The simple fact that this needs to be said out loud is
really kind of a sad reflection of where the other side is on
this issue. There should be no debate about this. However, we
are here today because the Biden Administration is choosing to
ignore the truth and, I might add, the science.
The truth is, is that by allowing biological males to
compete in women's sports is fundamentally unfair. It is also
unsafe.
Scientific evidence--and I will say that again--scientific
evidence affirms that biological males and females have
unchangeable physiological differences attributed to their sex.
Some of these differences benefit male athletes. For example,
males typically have greater muscle mass, lung capacity, and
bone density than females.
All of these characteristics give males a competitive
advantage over females. This is why women should compete
against women and men should not compete against them. That is
what Title IX was designed to protect.
By allowing biological males to compete in women's sports,
we are placing our daughters in danger every time they step
onto the field.
This hearing is about protecting women, period. That is it.
I am standing up for the rights of women, children, my
daughter, your daughter, our granddaughters.
I am frustrated as I continue to hear about female athletes
who are injured by biological males competing in women's
sports.
I am a mother. I have two daughters. Any parent will tell
you that their most sacred responsibility is to protect their
children. And that is what I am trying to do, and that is what
this hearing is about. That is why today is about protecting
our daughters, our nieces, and our granddaughters. It is time
for us to get off the sideline and actually stand up for them.
Unfortunately, the Biden Administration has shown that it
is putting leftist policies before women and girls. In a
fraudulent effort to be inclusive, the Biden Administration is
sacrificing equality.
Instead of defending the hard-fought protections that Title
IX secured--I mean, think of how long we fought for Title IX,
for equality for women--the Biden Administration has proposed
two rules that will drastically alter Title IX. The Biden
Administration's proposed rule redefines ``sex'' to include
gender identity and expands Title IX protections to biological
males--protections that were created and implemented for women
and girls.
If the Biden Administration is successful, it will mean
that more women will lose out on academic and athletic
opportunities that should have been afforded to them under
Title IX--again, the whole reason we put together Title IX.
Last year, we celebrated the 50th anniversary of Title IX's
enactment. For the last 50 years, we have seen Title IX's
success in securing equality for women across the country. We
cannot allow this Administration to dismantle the rights and
protections that women fought so hard to achieve.
We must protect women and girls. And I encourage my
colleagues on both sides of the aisle to stay centered on this
issue throughout the hearing.
To our panel, thank you, thank you, thank you for being
here today before the Subcommittee. I am looking forward to
having this very important discussion with you.
And I now recognize the Ranking Member, Ms. Lee, for your
opening statement.
Ms. Lee?
Ms. Lee. Thank you, Madam Chair.
It is disappointing to me that, although the title of this
hearing implies a much-needed discussion, we are likely going
to be forced to listen to transphobic bigotry.
Because, actually, protecting female athletes in Title IX
is important. Participating in sports provides so many benefits
to our young people. Those benefits range from improved mental
and physical health to enriched life skills, such as teamwork
and goal-setting. In terms of mental health, studies show that
participating in youth sports is associated with lower rates of
anxiety and depression, lower amounts of stress, higher self-
esteem and confidence, and reduced risk of suicide.
So why are my Republican colleagues working so hard to
prevent our trans youth from participating?
According to the Human Rights Campaign, in just the first
143 days of 2023, elected officials across the Nation
introduced more than 520 anti-LGBTQIA bills in state
legislature. Twenty-three states banned trans youth from
participating in school sports consistent with their gender
identity, with some laws focusing on kids as young as
kindergarten. How competitive is kindergarten? You all are
working so hard at excluding and demonizing a bunch of kids.
I think it is important that we raise the voices of
transgender athletes, their families, and teammates. I would
like to read a few of their stories, written in the first
person, the first from CeCe Telfer, a professional track
athlete, model, and advocate.
``I was a former D2 national champion in the 400-meter
hurdles, and I am now a professional athlete training to make
it on the Team USA and represent them in the following Olympics
to come. Sports have given me a plethora of things, but mainly
sports have given me strength, taught me how to overcome fear
and stand up when defeated. Sports have given me collaborative
skills that was developed throughout the years of being an
athlete and having teammates. Sports taught me how to stay
focused and committed, along with the necessary skills that
sports has taught me in giving me clarity and freedom.
``Transgender women and girls, transgender people, are not
a threat. We do not play sports to cheat. We deserve the rights
as any other women, because that is what we are. There are
rules and regulations that define our ability to compete.
``The narrative that builds on myself and trans kids in the
community is negative and dehumanizing. It feels as though
people do not want us to exist. And in order to change the
narrative--because we do exist, and we are not going to stop
existing--we need to stop these anti-trans bills. They are
dehumanizing, and kids are dying.
``Instead, I believe the government should step up and
support trans people on all levels to show that we are seen and
have rights and are people just like everybody else.''
From Ember, a transgender female high school softball
player: ``When I was younger, I played co-ed baseball. I loved
it. When the teams became single-sex, I no longer fit in. I was
teased and ostracized, though the most difficult part was not
feeling like myself, so I quit.
``I came out as trans in seventh grade and wanted to play
softball, but my state requires trans girls to take hormones
for a year before they can play a sport. So, I waited for 3
years. During that time, I became self-conscious, uncomfortable
with my body, and lost all of my confidence. I was diagnosed
with depression and anxiety.
``I was finally approved to play on a girls' team in the
spring of my sophomore year of high school. Playing on a girls'
team has been an incredible experience for me. I have made so
many friends and improved so much, despite starting so late.
``My teammates treat me just like everyone else on the
team. So do my coaches. My team is part of my family. We are
all so different and come from different cliques, but when we
are together on the field, we are there for each other no
matter what. Every kid should be lucky enough to have this
experience.''
And from Debbie Jackson, a parent of a non-binary teen:
``My child, Avery, is now 15 years old. Avery does not even
remember what it was like to be viewed as a boy. We affirmed
who they are at a young age and supported their social
transition before kindergarten.
``During that time, Avery was in a co-ed trampoline class
at a local gym. The gymnastics classes at the gym were divided
by gender, and as we began referring to Avery as our daughter,
Avery asked to move into gymnastics. It was one additional step
toward being affirmed and accepted authentically.
``To this day, some of my favorite photos and videos are
from the first day of that class, when Avery marched so
confidently onto the mat, with a barely grown-out traditional
boyish haircut, next to a gaggle of other girls, with their
bouncy ponytails. Avery enthusiastically followed every word of
the coach, trying forward rolls and falling off the balance
beam with every step--literally, every step. Avery was the most
gloriously awkward, non-athletic creature I have ever
witnessed.
``I can safely tell you that Avery is still a gloriously
awkward, non-athletic creature who will never win in any
athletic endeavor. But participating in sports is not about
winning. Playing sports helps with mental health, teaches
teamwork, provides camaraderie with others, and teaches
discipline and goal-setting. It opens doors to friendship,
connection, and community with others. That is what my child
experienced in that gymnastics class, and other trans kids
deserve to experience all of those benefits too.
``I am so thankful that Avery did not have to choose
between not participating in sports or being forced to
participate as a boy. Forcing a transgender child to choose
between living an authentic life and playing a game is cruel.
``Think about how it would feel to have your body openly
discussed by others or have the fairness of your existence and
basic rights debated in a public forum. That is what you are
doing to innocent kids. Please leave our kids alone. They
deserve so much better from people in power.''
I want to thank these people for sharing their stories and
reminding us that this is about children and daughters and sons
and siblings and friends. These are real people with real
experiences who deserve to feel loved and included.
I would ask unanimous consent to enter these letters to the
Committee from transgender athletes provided by the National
Center for Transgender Equality.
Mrs. McClain. Without objection, so ordered.
Ms. Lee. Thank you.
Sports are a vital aspect of education that offers
important lessons. Athletics allows young people from diverse
backgrounds to engage in healthy movement and play, learn how
to work as a team, and form meaningful connections.
Madam Chair, I ask that while we sit through this hearing
and hear the hateful misinformation I am sure is going to come
our way, let us not forget that children are at the core of
this issue.
I yield back.
Mrs. McClain. Thank you, Ms. Lee.
I will now recognize our witnesses for today.
Ms. Riley Gaines is a former collegiate athlete for the
University of Kentucky and now serves as an ambassador for the
Independent Women's Voice.
Welcome.
Ms. Sarah Parshall Perry is the senior legal fellow in the
Edwin Meese III Center for Legal and Judicial Studies at the
Heritage Foundation. She is also a former senior counsel to the
Assistant Secretary for Civil Rights at the U.S. Department of
Education.
Ms. Kim Russell is the former head women's lacrosse coach
at Oberlin College and now serves as an ambassador for the
Independent Women's Forum.
And, finally, Ms. Fatima Goss Graves is the President and
CEO of the National Women's Law Center.
Welcome, and thank you again for all being here.
Pursuant to the Committee Rule 9(g), the witnesses will
please stand and raise their right hands.
Do you solemnly swear or affirm that the testimony that you
are about to give in this is the truth, the whole truth, and
nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Let the record show that the witnesses answered in the
affirmative.
Thank you. You may all take a seat.
So, again, I now recognize myself--the witnesses--excuse
me--I now recognize the witnesses for an opening statement.
Let me remind the witnesses that we have read your written
statement, and we will have it appear in full in the hearing
record. Please limit your oral statements to 5 minutes.
As a reminder, please press the button on the microphone in
front of you so that it is on, and the Members can hear you.
You will begin to speak. The light in front of you will turn
green. After 4 minutes, the light will turn yellow. Then the
red light will come on; your 5 minutes has expired, and we
would ask you to please wrap up.
I now recognize Ms. Gaines for her opening statement.
STATEMENT OF RILEY GAINES
AMBASSADOR
INDEPENDENT WOMEN'S VOICE
FORMER COLLEGIATE ATHLETE
Ms. Gaines. Thank you. My name is Riley Gaines, and I am an
ambassador for Independent Women's Voice. And I am here today
to urge you to protect women's sports and uphold the original
intent of Title IX.
My story is by now well-known. I was a student at
University of Kentucky, where I was also a member of the
women's swim team, finishing my collegiate career as a 12-time
NCAA All-American, a 5-time SEC champion--still the SEC record-
holder in the 200 butterfly, making me one of the fastest
Americans of all time.
In March 2022, female swimmers from around the country and
I were forced to compete at NCAAs against Lia, formerly Will,
Thomas. We watched as this male swam to a women's national
title, beating out the most impressive and accomplished female
swimmers in the Nation, including Olympians and American
record-holders.
Despite tying, down to the hundredth, with Thomas in the
200 freestyle, I was denied the trophy, because the NCAA
claimed it was necessary for Thomas to hold the trophy when
photos were being taken. It was clear to me, my teammates, and
my competitors that they had reduced everything we had worked
our entire lives for down to a photo op to validate the
feelings and the identity of a male.
But that is not all. In addition to losing out on
opportunities to Thomas, we also had to share a locker room and
change in front of this 6-foot-4, fully intact, naked male. And
as I have testified previously, we were not forewarned of this
arrangement, we were not asked for our consent, and we did not
give our consent to this exposure and to be exploited.
Unfortunately, Thomas was not a one-off. Across the country
and in various sports, males are entering women's athletic
competitions, being given spots on women's teams, and being
granted entry to our locker rooms. There are numerous
documented instances of males competing, not just in women's
swimming, but also in women's track, cross-country, basketball,
volleyball, field hockey, and other sports at all levels of
competition.
This issue is incredibly underreported for various reasons,
but commonsense Americans know intuitively, this is not fair to
women.
And science, of course, supports that instinct. In fact,
studies consistently show males have about a 10-to 12-percent
athletic advantage over females. This gap is evident in almost
every sport and at every level of competition.
Yes, hormone therapy can narrow this gap, but it cannot
close it. And studies consistently demonstrate that surgery and
testosterone suppression do not reduce male athletic
performance to normal female levels.
Take Thomas, for example. He was mediocre against the men,
at best, ranking 400ths and 500ths nationally, then dominating
all of the women in the entire country--by body lengths, might
I add--in a matter of a year.
Not only do women have to worry about losing opportunities
and being exploited in locker rooms, allowing men into women's
sports also puts girls at greater risk of injury.
In September of last year, North Carolina high school
volleyball player Payton McNabb suffered serious injury after a
trans-identified male player spiked a ball at her head,
rendering her unconscious. Payton experienced extensive trauma
to her head and neck and long-term concussion symptoms. Still
to this day, a year and 3-ish months later, she is still
partially paralyzed on her right side, her vision is impaired,
her memory is impaired, and she is not playing college sports
like she had dreamed of for herself.
Just a few weeks in Massachusetts, a male player on the
Swampscott High School field hockey women's team injured an
opposing player with a shot to the face, sending the female
athlete to the hospital with significant facial and dental
injuries.
Injuries, of course, can and do happen when females are
playing against other females. But allowing men to play women's
sports increases the likelihood and severity of such injuries.
That is one of the reasons why, for 50 years, Federal Title IX
regulations have allowed schools to offer separate teams for
women and men when the sports are contact sports or involve
competitive skill.
In April 2023, the Department of Education proposed a rule
that, if adopted, would reverse this presumption. Under the
proposed rule, women's sports are not just for women, they are
for anyone who simply says they are a woman, unless a
particular school can demonstrate to the satisfaction of the
Department of Education that keeping a particular team female
meets important educational objectives.
The new rule mandates that every school in the country must
demonstrate the unfairness of male participation on each
specific women's team that they offer and develop rules that
minimize harm to trans-identified athletes.
But what about the harm to us? Who is working to minimize
the harm done to female athletes?
Let me be perfectly clear: A school that knowingly allows a
male athlete to take a spot on a women's team or allows a male
athlete to take the field in a women's game is denying a female
student athletic opportunity. And that is sex-based
discrimination, and it violates Title IX, regardless of what
the new regulations might say.
It is my sincere hope that Members of this Committee will
take action to stop the Biden Administration's illegal and
administrative rewrite of Title IX.
Of course, there is a place for everyone--regardless of
gender identity, regardless of sexual orientation, regardless
of race or what sports you play, there is a place for everyone
to play sports in this country. But unsafe, unfair, and
discriminatory practices toward women must stop. Inclusion
cannot be prioritized over safety and fairness.
And, Ranking Member Lee, if my testimony makes me
transphobic, then I believe your opening monologue makes you a
misogynist.
Thank you.
Mrs. McClain. Thank you, Ms. Gaines.
I now recognize Ms. Parshall Perry for her opening
statement.
STATEMENT OF SARAH PARSHALL PERRY
SENIOR LEGAL FELLOW
EDWIN MEESE III CENTER FOR LEGAL
AND JUDICIAL STUDIES
HERITAGE FOUNDATION
Ms. Parshall Perry. Good afternoon, Chairwoman McClain,
Ranking Member Lee, and distinguished Members of the
Subcommittee. My name is Sarah Parshall Perry. I am a senior
legal fellow at the Heritage Foundation.
As a former varsity athlete, the mother of a girls' varsity
athlete, and former senior counsel for civil rights at the
Department of Education, I have, as the saying goes----
Ms. Lee. Madam Chair, excuse me. I move to have the
gentlewoman's words taken down.
Mrs. McClain. The Committee will suspend.
Ms. Lee. Madam Chair, she is engaging in personalities.
Ms. Gaines. Could I just ask how it is fair to be called
transphobic?
Ms. Lee. No one called you anything.
Ms. Greene. I would say men disguising themselves as women
are engaging in personalities.
Ms. Lee. Order----
Mrs. McClain. Hang on, hang on, hang on. Order, order. Let
us get a ruling.
Ms. Lee. OK. I move to withdraw the point of order.
Mrs. McClain. Thank you, Ms. Lee.
I now recognize Ms. Parshall Perry for her opening
statement. We can start over. Thank you.
STATEMENT OF SARAH PARSHALL PERRY
SENIOR LEGAL FELLOW
EDWIN MEESE III CENTER FOR LEGAL
AND JUDICIAL STUDIES
HERITAGE FOUNDATION
Ms. Parshall Perry. Chairwoman McClain, Ranking Member Lee,
and distinguished Members of the Subcommittee, my name is Sarah
Parshall Perry. I am a senior legal fellow at the Heritage
Foundation.
As a former varsity athlete, the mother of a girls' varsity
athlete, and former senior counsel for civil rights at
Department of Education, I have, as the saying goes, skin in
this game.
What we are discussing today is an athletic scandal, a
fraud of unprecedented proportions perpetrated by the Federal
Government on American students. It turns obvious distinctions
between the sexes into nothing more than the myths of a bygone
era, while expecting female athletes to simply look the other
way.
In education, one law should stand as a bulwark against sex
discrimination, as it has for the 50 years since its inception.
And yet the Department's rulemaking on Title IX purports to
provide for the participation of men in women's sports,
rendering the sex discrimination of old new again.
Title IX made possible opportunities for women historically
excluded from higher education athletics, graduate school
scholarships, and more. Because of the law, the rate of girls'
participation in high school athletics is now 1,000 percent
higher. Girls now constitute over 56 percent of American
college students and 42 percent of high school athletes. And 94
percent of female executives played scholastic sports.
Title IX was the crowning achievement of the feminist
movement, its origins incontrovertibly in women's liberation,
spurred by statements made by the judge famously who proclaimed
in 1971, ``Athletic competition builds character in our boys.
We do not need that kind of character in our girls.'' And yet,
by threatening to gut Title IX's guarantee of equality, the
Department is on the cusp of perpetuating just this type of
regressive thinking.
There are two rules at issue, the latter of which governs
criteria for athletics--between athletic interests of women and
transgender-identified men--the Department has called the rule
of compromise. But a compromise it most definitely is not.
Instead, it is a self-refuting tangle of considerations, a
bureaucratic nightmare for any educational institution to which
it applies. It does not clarify Title IX's sex-based criteria
in sports; it complicates it.
It departs from decades of Title IX's application to
athletics, obscures the plain text of the longstanding
athletics regulation with vague terms, an unworkable standard,
and the guaranteed conflict with the contrary laws of 23
states. It balances the equities against the women and girls
who were at the heart of Title IX's passage and, impressively,
does all this while violating constitutional civil rights and
administrative law.
The coup de grace? There is a reason to argue that the
Department even lacks the authority to promulgate an athletics
regulation in the first place.
Then there is the rule's refusal to acknowledge obvious
sex-based competitive advantages to sport. Males have greater
lung capacity, larger hearts, more bone density, more muscle
mass, they jump higher, throw further, run faster, accelerate
quicker, and punch harder than females. And this gap emerges as
early as the age of 12, when males experience a twentyfold
boost in testosterone.
Title IX and its implementing regulations contain a set of
limited sex-affirmative exceptions allowing schools to take sex
into account, and a sex binary--male versus female--is the
foundation upon which the entire statute rests. Its use of the
words ``both'' and ``either'' reinforces this longstanding
understanding.
Even the Supreme Court's determination in Bostock v.
Clayton County that sex discrimination in employment also
includes discrimination based on sexual orientation and
transgender status does nothing to change that, nor did the
Supreme Court intend to.
When biological boys are glibly classified as girls, the
feminist gains of the past 50 years are eviscerated. Womanhood
cannot be achieved by puberty blockers or cross-sex hormones,
and it deserves the continued protection of Title IX.
I urge this chamber not to rewind the clock on women's
progress but, rather, hold fast to the principles of equality.
The future of women's sports depends on it.
If a self-declaration of womanhood and hormones are
sufficient to open women's sports to men, what, after all, was
the point of the women's liberation movement?
I welcome your questions.
Mrs. McClain. Thank you, Ms. Parshall Perry.
The Chair now recognizes Ms. Russell for her opening
statements.
STATEMENT OF KIM RUSSELL
AMBASSADOR
INDEPENDENT WOMEN'S FORUM
FORMER HEAD WOMEN'S LACROSSE COACH
OBERLIN COLLEGE
Ms. Russell. Thank you all for being here.
I am Kim Russell, an ambassador for the Independent Women's
Forum.
Why am I here? I am 56 years old. I am an athlete, a coach,
a mother, and a teacher and a longtime advocate for women and
girls. This has been my life and my passion. I played two
sports at the D1 level that never would have been possible
without Title IX. I have been a lacrosse coach for over 27
years. I am in three halls of fame for coaching and
contributing to the growth of lacrosse, and there is actually
an award in my name.
Oberlin College removed me from coaching and offered me an
administrative position after I chose to publicly tell my story
and refused to be silent or back down about my belief that men,
no matter how they self-identify, should not be allowed to
compete in women's sports.
I joined Oberlin College in 2018 as the head women's
lacrosse coach and a wellness instructor. I have always been
pro-woman, then and now.
Over the course of my coaching career, I have been a mentor
to many women and girls, sharing advice both on and off the
field. My athletes, including several who have identified as
transgender, have always known they can come to me to laugh, to
cry, or anything in between.
I have been nicknamed the ``hippie love coach,'' not only
because I am a yoga instructor--I am usually barefoot; these
shoes are not my typical wear--I read energy and coach
intuitively, but because I have given countless individuals a
safe space to thrive and feel a sense of belonging.
In March 2022, I had been following the story of Lia Thomas
and kept thinking someone would speak up. How could a
biological male be allowed to compete with women, regardless of
a hormone-blocking regime? I was flabbergasted that coaches,
parents, administrators, and athletes were OK with this.
After Thomas won, I reposted an Instagram post on my
personal story that said, ``Congratulations to Emma Weyant, the
real woman who won the NCAA 500-yard freestyle.'' I added my
own short commentary: ``What do you believe? I cannot be quiet
on this. I have spent my entire life playing sports, coaching,
and starting sports programs for girls and women.''
Turns out, it was more controversial than I could have ever
anticipated. Based on this simple post, I was called
transgressive, transphobic, and unsafe.
I was told to write letters of apology to my team and the
athletic department because of the unrest and disruption I had
caused. I could not apologize for something that I am not sorry
for. I would not and will not apologize for saying a biological
male does not belong in women's sports and private spaces.
As an athlete and coach for nearly my entire life, I am
personally familiar with the distinct differences between male
and female athletes. I gave birth to four kids. I ran the
sidelines nursing a child while I coached in the state
championships, and I have had another child on my back at the
same time.
After I refused to apologize, I was called in for a meeting
of my team with a mediator present. A handful of the student
athletes on my team attacked and vilified me as if I were the
enemy and had just killed someone.
A week later, there was another meeting with my team and
three college administrators. For 1 hour and 42 minutes, the
same athletes who I had treated like my own kids bashed me over
and over again in front of the administrators simply for having
a pro-woman perspective that was different from theirs.
I had to stay quiet and repeat back everything they said
and confirm that I had heard their concerns. At the end of the
meeting, I was given the chance to respond, at which point I
knew whatever I said would land on deaf ears.
I was called into the AD's office after the season ended
and handed a letter. At the bottom, it said, ``This letter is
intended to help you understand and appreciate the impact of
your actions and the need for you to immediately modify your
behavior.'' I asked Oberlin to provide me with a written letter
on what I had done wrong and how I could improve my behavior
but was never provided any clarity.
When I arrived at Oberlin in 2018, I was so excited to be
part of a community that celebrates free spirit, open-minded
dialog, freedom of speech, and freedom of expression. I am the
hippie love coach. I thought I was home. But Oberlin, like many
higher-level institutions today, only seems to support the
First Amendment if your values align with theirs.
Most people have chosen to stay silent in this topic
because the consequences seem too great--loss of a job,
reputation, friends, or family, you name it. I am here, in
part, to speak for them. I will never apologize for believing
that women and girls should have the right to single-sex
competition, a right for which women before me fought
tirelessly. I am hoping that my speaking up will give others
the courage to do the same.
I am here hoping to ensure that you understand the
ramifications of the Biden Administration's proposed regulation
and that you will each do your job to ensure that the original
meaning of Title IX is upheld. It was passed when I was 5. I
have reaped the benefits, and my life's journey continues to be
massively impacted.
The Biden Administration is trying to effectively change
the meaning and language of Title IX. If allowed, this will
endanger women in sports and private spaces, take away
opportunities from women in sports and academia.
Never in a million years did I think I would be sitting
here at 56 fighting to get back the rights that were given to
women and girls 51 years ago.
Since March 2022, many more biological males have invaded
women's and girls' sports. There have been life-changing
injuries, opportunities lost, and privacy has been invaded. We
are harming women and girls.
You have the opportunity to be heroes. This is about
upholding truth, protecting the dreams of female athletes, and
the original meaning of Title IX.
Mrs. McClain. Thank you, Ms. Russell.
The Chair next recognizes Ms. Goss Graves.
Thank you, ma'am.
STATEMENT OF FATIMA GOSS GRAVES
PRESIDENT AND CEO
NATIONAL WOMEN'S LAW CENTER
Ms. Goss Graves. Thank you, Chairwoman McClain, Ranking
Member Lee, and Members of the Subcommittee for the opportunity
to testify today. My name is Fatima Goss Graves, and I am
President and CEO of the National Women's Law Center.
The National Women's Law Center was founded the same year
that Title IX was passed and has worked to remove barriers for
women and girls throughout the course of their lives throughout
our founding.
And since I have had the great honor to engage in this
critical work, including as an advocate for women and girls in
school and in sports--in fact, my first Title IX matter was
more than 15 years ago, where we worked to successfully secure
equal facilities for girls in a school district in Maryland.
And over the last 50 years, Title IX has dramatically
advanced women and girls' participation in school sports. High
school girls have 3 million more opportunities to play today
than they did before Title IX, and 44 percent of NCAA athletes
today are now women, compared to only 15 percent before Title
IX.
But significant barriers to gender equity in sport persist.
Women and girls have over 1 million fewer opportunities to play
in high school than boys. Some schools still treat girls' and
women's teams as afterthoughts. We hear complaints of uniforms
and equipment that are essentially second-class. They are not
afforded the same level of publicity to showcase their many
talents. And women in professional sports consistently complain
about gender bias in pay.
And we have all learned of case after case of sexual abuse
against student athletes, where schools overlooked the
deplorable conduct by coaches and athletic trainers and school
doctors.
These barriers to gender equity in sports are well-
documented and they are pervasive.
Yet none of that is the subject of the hearing today. And
so, today is really about attacking and dehumanizing
transgender people and especially trans women and girls.
And even though trans youth are not responsible for any of
the problems in sport that I have named, and still we have seen
at least 24 states who have been racing to move to ban trans
students from women and girls' sports teams, falsely claiming
they are protecting women's sports. That is just not true.
We know from data collected from between 2008 and 2019 that
including trans student athletes correlates with increased
participation by all girls. In contrast, girls' overall
participation in high school sports declined in states that
enacted trans-exclusionary policies.
So, let me put it really plainly: Excluding women and girls
who are trans hurts all women and girls.
The irony is, this debate about including trans women and
girls in sports should sound familiar to anyone who has tracked
the evolution of Title IX over the last five decades, because
at its root are sexist stereotypes that equate femininity with
being slower and weaker and likely unathletic.
Athletes come in all shapes and sizes. And written
enforcement of who is a woman is dangerous and only encourages
further discrimination. It invites the sort of gender policing
that could subject any woman to accusations of being too
masculine or too good or not a real enough woman to
participate.
The reality is that, like their peers, trans girls and
women, they sometimes lose at sports, and sometimes they win.
And success in school sports depends on a whole range of
factors, including how hard you work and coaching and access to
really good resources and facilities.
And trans students participate in sports for the same
reason, as they are kids, because it is fun, because it creates
belonging and community, because it teaches so much about
persistence and leadership and discipline--unless they learn to
lose gracefully, hopefully. And often they learn to win with
dignity, hopefully. They learn to do the sort of work that
means you have higher grades and stay connected to school. I
want every kid to have that chance, to have the chance to play.
So, I feel compelled to just end my testimony with a few
ideas for the Committee to pursue if it really wants to work on
this issue.
We could make it safer for student athletes who report
harassment and sexual misconduct. We could address resource
disparities in sports. We could protect access to healthcare,
including gender-affirming and reproductive healthcare. Pay,
promotions, dealing with the caregiving crisis in this
country--all of that could be your agenda.
Thank you for having me today.
Mrs. McClain. Thank you, Ms. Goss Graves.
I would just like to remind everybody of the title of the
hearing, since it is my hearing. And the title of the hearing
is ``The Importance of Protecting Female Athletes and Title
IX.'' I am for protecting women. We fought very, very long and
very hard to protect women.
So, I just want to be clear, there is not a hidden agenda.
It is actually to protect women in women's sports. So, since it
is my hearing, I just wanted to clarify, that is my agenda.
With that, without objection, Representative Jordan of
Ohio, Representative Sessions of Texas, Representative Greene
of Georgia, Representative Boebert of Colorado, Representative
Burchett of Tennessee, Representatives Waltz of Florida,
Representative LaMalfa of California, and Representative Garcia
of California are waived on to the Subcommittee for the purpose
of questioning the witnesses at today's Subcommittee hearing.
I ask unanimous consent to enter five statements into the
record: a legal memorandum by Ms. Sarah Parshall Perry titled
``The Department of Education's Intended Revision of Title IX
Fails Regulatory and Civil Rights Analysis''; a second legal
memorandum by Ms. Sarah Parshall Perry, titled ``Once More With
Feeling: Department of Education Releases Second Title IX
Rule--and Fails Again''; a report from the Independent Women's
Forum and the Independent Women's Law Center titled
``Competition: Title IX, Male-Bodied Athletes, and the Threat
to Women's Sports''; an article from The Daily Signal titled
``Exclusive: School Assigned Girl to Sleep with Boy Who
Identifies as Trans Without Parental Notification''; and a
statement for the record submitted by the NCAA on December 4,
2023.
Without objection, so ordered.
The Chair now recognizes Chairman Comer.
Mr. Comer. All right. Thank you, Madam Chair, for holding
this hearing, protecting female sports and Title IX.
As a Kentuckian, when I think about great Kentucky female
athletes, our witness Riley Gaines is the first name that pops
out.
And, Riley, on behalf of every great Kentucky Wildcat fan
in the Commonwealth of Kentucky, we thank you for how well you
represented Kentucky on the national level and for your
advocacy today in being a leading voice in protecting women's
sports.
Ms. Gaines, has Title IX had a positive impact on your
access to athletic and academic opportunities?
Ms. Gaines. Of course it has. I would not have been able to
achieve what I achieved without Title IX and without the
women's sporting category.
Of course, it has developed me into the leader that I am
today. It has given me the confidence to stand before this
Committee and the security to stand firm in my belief that men
should not be playing in women's sports.
Mr. Comer. I know we had a witness that suggested that,
because you worked so hard all your life to be the best--I
mean, you were the best in female swimming; there is no
question about that. And to have to lose or share a title with
a biological male--you know, we had a witness on the panel
suggest you should have just lost gracefully. I mean, I think
that is a slap in the face to any athlete who worked so hard.
I mean, I was a below-mediocre basketball player on my high
school basketball team, and I cannot imagine the work that you
put in--that any great athlete, male or female, puts in. And I
do not think you should lose gracefully. I think you should do
exactly what you have been doing.
You are a class act. And you have been a leader. You have
told your story. Many of us on this side of the aisle have
heard your story many times, and we respect what you are doing,
and we stand with you. I just want you to know that.
Ms. Gaines. Well, I appreciate that a whole lot.
And just for the record, I have certainly lost gracefully
many times in my career. Even speaking to the incident of
Thomas and I at the national championships, we tied for fifth--
granted, fifth in the entire Nation, so it is still an
incredible achievement, but there were four women who beat me.
And I am incredibly proud of those women who beat me.
So, I certainly can and have lost gracefully many times in
my career.
Mr. Comer. I lose gracefully a lot on the golf course. Not
really. But I lose a lot on the golf course.
Coach Russell, if the Biden Administration successfully
redefines Title IX to include gender identity, are you
concerned that young women will miss out on the athletic and
academic opportunities that would be afforded to them?
Ms. Russell. Absolutely. So, not only would biological
males be able to take the positions on teams away from females,
that includes then scholarship money at different levels; it
includes awards at different levels; it includes now NIL money,
so sponsorship money. It is not just a one-off. There are many
different levels that that will hit, yes.
Mr. Comer. Well, Madam Chair, before I yield back, I just
want to thank our witnesses who are here today advocating for
female sports and Title IX. This is a great hearing.
And we look forward to working with you to--as a Majority--
to protect women's sports and Title IX moving forward.
With that, Madam Chair, I yield back.
Mrs. McClain. Thank you.
The Chair now recognizes Ms. Lee from Pennsylvania for 5
minutes.
Ms. Lee. Thank you, Madam Chair.
I must say I am surprised to hear that my Republican
colleagues care so much about protecting the, quote, ``safety,
privacy, and opportunities of women,'' since their voting
record and priorities this Congress shows the opposite.
A report released last year in conjunction with the 50th
anniversary of Title IX found that men's athletic programs
received more than twice as many resources as women's programs
in 2020 and that expenditures for recruiting and compensating
head coaches and assistant coaches favored male athletes nearly
three to one.
Yet the 2024 appropriations bill did nothing to expand
access for women in sports. It did, however, contain a rider to
prevent the proposed Department of Education rule relating to
transgender athletes' ability to participate in sports.
Ms. Goss Graves, to your knowledge, do any of the bans
preventing transgender students from participating in sports
increase funding for women's sports?
Ms. Goss Graves. No, they do not.
Ms. Lee. Do any of these bans improve playing fields or
increase the number of women's teams?
Ms. Goss Graves. Absolutely not.
Ms. Lee. Do any of these bans provide resources to expand
recreational sports opportunities for low-income female
athletes?
Ms. Goss Graves. No.
Ms. Lee. While this Committee purports to care about the
safety of women, in 2021, when the House voted to reauthorize
the Violence Against Women Act, 80 percent of the Republican
caucus voted against that law. Not a single Republican Member
of this Committee, nor our current Speaker, voted for it.
That bill included a provision to close the boyfriend
loophole. Currently, people convicted of domestic violence
against a spouse cannot purchase a firearm, but nothing
prevents a boyfriend from acquiring one.
Ms. Goss Graves, unlike gun violence, where the data is
clear, is there any evidence that allowing transgender athletes
to participate in sports presents a safety concern for women?
Ms. Goss Graves. Absolutely not.
Ms. Lee. Because my Republican colleagues also claim to be
concerned about women's privacy and opportunities, let us also
discuss the Women's Health Protection Act, which passed in the
House last year and would protect and expand access to abortion
care. Not a single Republican voted for this law.
The right to abortion is rooted directly in the right to
privacy. And research has repeatedly shown that the ability to
access abortion corresponds with greater economic opportunities
for women.
Ms. Goss Graves, is there any reason to believe that
allowing transgender young people to participate in sports
threatens women's privacy or employment or economic
opportunities?
Ms. Goss Graves. None of those things are threatened by the
participation of transgender individuals in sports.
Ms. Lee. Thank you.
In fact, is not there a risk that banning transgender
athletes could lead to privacy violations, either through
requiring documentation or invasive examinations?
Ms. Goss Graves. There is a deep worry there. And some
states have passed that sort of sex verification law, which
would subject all women and girls to those sorts of
examinations.
Ms. Lee. Ms. Goss Graves, what should we actually focus on
if we want to protect opportunities for women in sports?
Ms. Goss Graves. There is an opportunity right now to
promote further resources to address sexual abuse that is
happening in sports; to provide the sort of resources that mean
more kids have an opportunity to play; and to advocate that the
Biden Administration finalize this rule that has been waiting
for so long. That is where we are.
Ms. Lee. We have seen these same misguided arguments
before, rooted in false stereotypes, when athletes of color
tried to integrate White sports leagues, who were accused of
taking away opportunities from White athletes.
Black women in sports, whether they are cis, trans, or
intersex, constantly encounter shifting roles and expectations
as a reprimand for their success. They are accused of doping or
cheating in order to win. People make cruel remarks about their
perceived femininity and create racist depictions of their
physicality--all in attempts to discourage and exclude them
from competing and ultimately to keep them from winning. They
were wrong then, and they are wrong now.
I am offended to see hatred and bigotry wrapped up in faux
concerns about women and girls. We are talking about children
wanting to play sports, wanting to feel included and accepted.
I would like to quote the Republican Governor from Utah,
Governor Cox's veto message, who said, quote, ``Rarely has so
much fear and anger been directed at so few. I do not
understand what they are going through or why they feel the way
they do, but I want them to live.''
I yield back.
Mrs. McClain. I now recognize myself for 5 minutes.
Ms. Gaines, why is it patently unfair to allow biological
males to compete in women's sports?
Ms. Gaines. I mean, look at what has happened, I mean, even
if you just look at the examples recently. We do not see
females entering into men's sports and dominating. This is only
happening one way, and with that way being males entering into
women's sports and dominating.
Of course, I could get into the science of it. I mentioned
the athletic gap in my testimony, which is consistent among
sports, specifically sports where there is a time, an objective
time, like swimming or track and field. It tends to be 10 to 12
percent across the board.
You look at things like wingspan or height or lung capacity
or the size of the heart, which does not change with hormone
suppression. And, again, of course, going through puberty,
those effects are irreversible.
Mrs. McClain. So, you are actually telling us to follow the
science?
Ms. Gaines. That is true.
Mrs. McClain. Second question. I know that you have been
active in working with Kappa Kappa Gamma sorority in Wyoming.
Can you explain what is going on there and why it is so
important that sororities remain female-only?
Ms. Gaines. Absolutely. Which is a part of, of course, this
Title IX rewrite. It is a lot broader than just women's sports,
and sororities are a part of it.
What those girls at University of Wyoming are going
through--and I know this because I talk to them daily. They
just refiled their lawsuit this morning. What they are going
through is nothing short of--I mean, it is perverse, allowing a
male into their sorority house, watching them as they shower
and undress, walking around--in the vein of being explicit
here, but, again, true--walking around erect in their sorority
house, asking them uncomfortable questions about what
undergarments they wear, about their breasts.
That is violating for any young girl, especially a college-
age young girl, who was promised sisterhood, mind you. Granted,
these girls got the brother they never wanted.
Mrs. McClain. Thank you.
Ms. Parshall Perry, the Biden Administration has claimed
that their April 13, 2023, proposed rule governing Title IX and
athletics will bring clarity. Is that true?
Ms. Parshall Perry. Well, it was not until this
Administration where the definition of ``sex'' was ever
anything other than clear. And, in fact, the entire structure
of Title IX is built on a sex binary.
The purpose of regulatory law in the Administrative
Procedure Act is to let the Federal Government contain and work
on rules that clarify anything that might be perceived to be
ambiguous. The previous Administration had already released a
Title IX rule in 2020 making very clear certain guidelines on
sexual harassment and sexual assault, and until this
Administration, there was no ambiguity whatsoever.
Mrs. McClain. And what harm will come to our female
athletes by redefining ``sex'' in Title IX to include gender
identity?
Ms. Parshall Perry. It is hard to quantity the market
impacts of the individual girls who are suddenly divested of
the opportunities to achieve scholarships, play on athletic
teams, to pursue the classes that they want, to ultimately--
because we know there is a connection between success on the
field and success later in life. These are individuals who are
not only going to suffer those particular direct impacts, they
will bear the brunt.
In addition, there is going to be a market relationship
fallout we have yet to even begin to quantity.
Mrs. McClain. And that--to women and girls?
Ms. Parshall Perry. Yes, absolutely.
Mrs. McClain. OK.
Let me, real quickly--Ms. Russell, can you speak to your
experiences with cancel culture and the treatment you received
at Oberlin College because you stood up for women?
Ms. Russell. My own children just say, ``Mama, you have
been canceled twice.''
Yes. I would say I went into Oberlin as a fairly liberal
person. I still love everyone and support everyone, no matter
who you want to be, what you want to--who you want to decide
you want to present as.
There are extreme differences in the biology of men and
women. I have experienced it as an athlete and a coach and a
parent. As an athlete, I chose to play co-ed field hockey as an
adult. My worst injury I have ever had came from that. A man
fell on top of me when I fell this way. I am 5'4'', maybe 120
pounds soaking wet. I have not ever been bigger except when I
was pregnant. When he fell on me, two of my ribs popped off of
my sternum. Those are the kind of injuries.
And what happened to Payton McNabb has recently happened to
another high school athlete in California whose dad is too
afraid to say anything. And this cancel culture--what has
happened is kids are too afraid to say anything. Parents are
too afraid to say anything. Coaches are in massive fear of
losing their jobs. Professors are in massive fear of losing
their jobs.
Mrs. McClain. All for standing up for women.
Ms. Russell. Yes.
Mrs. McClain. Thank you, Ms. Russell.
And, with that, my time is done.
The Chair now recognizes Mr. Raskin.
Mr. Raskin. Thank you kindly, Madam Chair.
The Ranking Member quoted the Republican Governor of Utah,
who said something to the effect of, never before had he seen
so many be so cruel to so few, who just wanted to participate.
And, Ms. Goss Graves, let me start with you. It sounds to
me like what we are mostly talking about here is the women who
are at the very highest levels of their sport in the final
competitions. We are talking about the very best.
But do you get complaints about this, or have you heard
complaints about this, just with people participating in either
co-ed sports generally or transgender athletes who are part of
an intramural softball league or people playing not for very
high stakes but playing for the reason most of us play, which
is to get exercise and have fun?
Ms. Goss Graves. You know, about two dozen states have been
racing to try to ban transgender participation in sports at all
levels. And many of those states have struggled to identify any
transgender individuals who are actually playing sports.
What we are dealing with right now is not an overwhelming
number of transgender athletes in all places, but, actually,
the sort of political rhetoric that is creating this fervor
that makes people believe that transgender people, who are less
than, you know, half of one percent of the population, have an
outsized presence in sports.
And it is not to protect women's sports, it is not to
expand the opportunity for women to play, it is not to bring
more resources, and it is not for school districts to create
safer conditions. There are other things that we know that work
that increase safety in sports. This is not it.
Mr. Raskin. So, Ms. Russell, let me ask you, because you
are a lacrosse coach. I have got two daughters who played
lacrosse. You seem like you are a great coach. Tell us--first,
answer that question. Are we talking about just the highest
level of sports where you are identifying a problem? I mean, is
it a problem to have co-ed sports or transgender kids playing
at a lower level, for intramurals and stuff like that?
Ms. Russell. So, nobody here that I have heard has said
anything about outlawing transgenders from playing sports.
Mr. Raskin. And you do not favor that?
Ms. Russell. No. What I am saying, personally, and I
believe I have heard here is that I do not believe that
biological males should be playing on exclusively women or
girls' teams.
Co-ed is completely different. When you play co-ed, in
general, boys and girls know they are playing with each other.
It is played differently. It is not played with the same
intensity as a men's sport.
Mr. Raskin. OK.
Can I just ask about your personal experience--which you
alluded to. But you ended up losing your job or leaving
Oberlin, do I understand it, not because of something that
happened with your team or a transgender player on your team
but because of something you said about what happened in
another league in another state? Is that right? Did I follow
you?
Or just tell me what the story was. I did not follow.
Ms. Russell. So, I am sorry, are you asking why I am no
longer coaching there?
Mr. Raskin. Yes. I thought that you were telling us the
story of that, but I could not quite follow the logical
sequence. Can--maybe it is not related to that. I just--I
thought that it was related to your views on this.
Ms. Russell. So, I told the story publicly. And the college
did not----
Mr. Raskin. Well, what story did you tell? I am sorry.
Ms. Russell. Of what happened to me at the college when I
did speak up about biological males competing against
biological females.
Mr. Raskin. But was it at Oberlin? Or it was----
Ms. Russell. No.
Mr. Raskin. It was elsewhere.
Ms. Russell. It was elsewhere.
Mr. Raskin. So, you do not--do you have any direct
experience of this, of what you are talking about, or no?
Ms. Russell. Of biological males playing at Oberlin with
biological females?
Mr. Raskin. Yes. In other words, is that where this comes
from, or no?
Ms. Russell. No.
Mr. Raskin. Oh, OK.
OK. So, Ms. Goss Graves, let me just come back to you
finally.
Secretary DeVos, in the Trump Administration, she took the
position that transgender kids should not be able to
participate, I think, across the board, you know, not just at
the highest levels or whatever, but just categorically could
not participate.
And the Office of Civil Rights in May 2020 ruled that a
Connecticut high school could not maintain its policy allowing
transgender students to participate in athletics on a team
corresponding to their gender identity.
How did that policy--because I understand the policy today
is it is up to the schools to decide when it is appropriate and
when it is not appropriate, under the Biden Administration
rules. But how did that policy of categorically banning it
affect children?
Ms. Goss Graves. What a categorical ban means is that a
child who wants to play does not have the chance to play.
It also means that, even if you are a transgender kid who,
maybe you do not even want to play sports, you now have a giant
signal coming from your government that you are less worthy,
that discrimination against you will be OK.
And so, it is both the practical harm but then this broader
message that policymakers are sending to young people that is
disturbing.
Mr. Raskin. Thank you.
And I yield back.
Mrs. McClain. Thank you.
The Chair now recognizes Mr. Gosar for 5 minutes.
Mr. Gosar. Thank you, Madam Chairman.
There is an understanding of fairness. It is one that we
almost instinctively learn from birth. Nothing offends a little
child more than a sibling getting a treat and he or she does
not. And America really hates cheaters. Just ask Lance
Armstrong. Remember Deflategate? The uncovering of the steroid
era was not kind to baseball. That is why beating women in
women's sports is so obnoxious to the American public.
Not only is allowing men to play in women's sports a
flagrant violation of fairness as well as posing a danger to
women in a locker room and the bathrooms, making women feel the
opposite of unique, as then anyone can become one, it
normalizes and encourages the terrible reality and tragedy of
children mutilating themselves in a misguided and hopeless
attempt to change genders.
The Family Research Council cited the world professional
association that the transgender health as a source of the
following list of awful diseases that cross-sex hormones cause.
Here is a list: blood clots, high triglycerides, cardiovascular
disease, high blood pressure, diabetes, high red blood cells, a
destabilization of some psychological disorders.
It defies common sense that mutilation improves mental
health. For the love of God, to everyone who promotes these
terrible ideologies, desist, stop. Every time you claim a man
can play in women's sports, every time you tell a child that
they can be whoever, whatever gender you want to be, every time
you read a book to a child promoting this propaganda, you are
risking the health, happiness, and well-being of our children.
Please stop experimenting with our youth.
Ms. Goss Graves, I want to ask you a question. Is the
genetic composition of a transgender versus a woman the same?
No.
Ms. Goss Graves. Well, I am not a scientist, but----
Mr. Gosar. Well, we are talking about science here. So, I
mean, I hope you--they are not the same. So that is why you see
all these physiological differences.
Ms. Goss Graves. If I can answer, though. I mean, if your
question is how do you define woman and woman is an adult
female, but there is a lot of variation that goes beyond my
level of biology and so----
Mr. Gosar. Well, I can tell you, you cannot--I am not
looking at a definition. I am talking about the science. The
science genetically is a man is a man, has different genetics
than a woman, plain and simple. That is just what it is.
Ms. Goss Graves. I guess what I would say is that it is--I
am not a scientist or a doctor, but it is my understanding that
it is more complex than what you are saying in that there is
variation among men and among women and sometimes more
variation among than there is between. Again, I am not a
scientist and, you know, I do not think the panelists are
scientists either. It seems like it may be a different
scientific hearing that you can----
Mr. Gosar. Well, that is why you have the differences. That
is why you see muscle mass. That is why you see tidal volume.
That is why you see all of these----
Ms. Goss Graves. Right, variations. So, for example, in the
WNBA, there is players that are 5-foot-5 and there is players
that are 6-foot-9, so a wide variation in height and in size
and in----
Mr. Gosar. So let me--now that you have brought that up,
let us talk about that. So, the center for the Arizona Phoenix
Mercury, she had to get a genetics test to prove that she was a
woman, did she not?
Ms. Goss Graves. You know what----
Mr. Gosar. She did.
Ms. Goss Graves. [continuing] That is actually going to the
problem with these sorts of sex verification and sex testing
that when I think about what all women, but especially Black
women whose bodies have historically fell outside the sort of
typical--what is considered the typical norm, the idea that
people would have to prove up their femaleness to play, it is
horrifying, and it is going in the wrong direction. I do not
think anybody wants that, especially----
Mr. Gosar. Well, I theoretically disagree with you. I think
we have got to be real with people about what their aspects
are.
Riley, how does playing in women's sports affect--how do
men playing in women's sports affect the esprit de corps of a
team or the team spirit?
Ms. Gaines. Speaking to, again, my lived experience, first
and foremost, it was a major distraction to have a male
competing with us at the national championships. It was all we
could talk about as a team. We were fearful to go into the
locker room. We had to wait and watch if Thomas came out. Then
we would enter to avoid going in at the same time. Of course,
our sport is very physical, but there is a mental aspect to it.
And allowing men into our sports certainly negatively impacted
that mental aspect, as well as the physical, of course.
Mr. Gosar. Ms. Parshall Perry, what are the likely costs to
educational institutions complying with Biden's new Title IX
rule which makes it almost impossible for schools receiving
money to limit women's sports to only women?
Ms. Parshall Perry. This is not just cost to education.
This is cost to the Federal Government and taxpayers. It is
cost to the medical community. It is cost to reduced lunch
programs. And that is because Title IX intersects with section
1557 of the Affordable Care Act and the Food and Nutrition Act,
which is the USCA's reduced school lunch program. That means
that implicating this particular rule does not just affect
sports. It affects everything from nutrition program funding.
It affects the cost of litigation. It affects the cost of
implementation.
Now we are requiring open locker rooms, open bathrooms as
well. The cost of implementation, in addition to what are
certain to be personal injury lawsuits as a result of the fact
that these female students are now getting concussions, dental
injuries, facial injuries. A school that does not protect its
biological girls, maintains sex separate spaces is certain to
going to be facing significant financial harm.
Mr. Gosar. Thank you, Ms. Parshall Perry.
I yield back.
Mrs. McClain. Thank you.
The Chair now recognizes Ms. Ocasio-Cortez.
Ms. Ocasio-Cortez. Thank you.
Now I have spent a decent amount of my time here in
Congress sitting through panels and hearings of men attempting
to restrict the rights of women and telling us that it is for
our own good. But I want to dive a little bit more deeply into
why this issue targeting trans women in sports is particularly
problematic, not just for trans girls but for all of us.
We are here today because there is a proposal here--and
there is several proposals here--to further marginalize trans
women in sports. And I think about this all the time because
trans people in the United States does not even exceed one
percent of our population. And yet there are so many resources
and energy and time dedicated to figuring out how we can more
finely exclude them from our sports. And I thought why--why?
Why so much effort and dedication of such a tiny portion of the
U.S. population when there virtually is no major issue that is
precipitating? And started to realize that a lot of these
proposals here involve invasion of privacy of all women.
Ms. Goss Graves, can you tell us a little bit about what
sex testing looks like for youth in states with trans athletic
bans?
Ms. Goss Graves. It is terrible. In some states, any
individual could challenge whether someone is a girl enough to
play. In some states, it requires actual genital verification,
which is shocking. And there are not--it is not as if there----
Ms. Ocasio-Cortez. And let me just stop you right there.
You said there are some proposals. And we have seen this in
Ohio. There was a proposed ban on trans athletes that
originally allowed for genital examinations on minors in order
to, quote/unquote, protect women. Is that correct?
Ms. Goss Graves. Unfortunately, yes.
Ms. Ocasio-Cortez. And so, we are seeing here in this
guise, under the guise of not only trying to further
marginalize trans women and girls, we are talking about opening
up all women and girls to genital examinations when they are
underage.
Ms. Goss Graves. That is right.
Ms. Ocasio-Cortez. Potentially just because someone can
point to someone and say, I do not think you are a girl?
Ms. Goss Graves. That is correct.
Ms. Ocasio-Cortez. And we are saying this in an environment
of a post-Dobbs America where states are criminalizing access
to abortion and want nothing more than data on women to figure
out when who is getting a menstrual cycle, who does not have
one, and we are supposed to believe that this is going to make
us better and safer? I think not.
And per usual, I do not believe we are sitting here in a
panel of men that has actually thought about the biology and
privacy consequences of all women, trans or cisgender, here.
Ms. Goss Graves, in addition to that, are there certain
groups more likely to face discrimination under these bans and
what you were speaking to, particularly when it comes to Black
women and girls?
Ms. Goss Graves. Yes. We have seen that there are examples
of Black women who are even professional athletes whose bodies
have been more examined and demonized. We have seen that with
my fan favorite, Serena Williams, whose body is often talked
about, that sort of challenging them for who they are. If it is
codified into law, it is something that we would expect to see
more.
Ms. Ocasio-Cortez. And this also deeply intersects with a
secondary issue, which is racial bias in the medical field when
we have vast proportions of populations that have been studied
and tested, are not racially or otherwise identity-based
representative of the broader U.S. population. And so, what
gets determined as a norm oftentimes gets pegged to largely
White populations that have been studied, and then Black women
and girls are then further subject to marginalization.
This has been your experience and what you have seen as
well, right?
Ms. Goss Graves. That is correct.
Ms. Ocasio-Cortez. And so, we are supposed to sit here on
this side of the dais and, to Ranking Member Lee's point, see a
party that has voted against women's access to abortion, voted
against our right, the Lily Ledbetter Equal Pay Act, voted
against the Violence Against Women Act, voted against our right
to have access to contraception, and also does not even vote
for equal funding, equitable funding in women's sports. And I
am supposed to believe that this is who is looking out for my
best interests? I think not.
And to that, I yield back.
Mrs. McClain. Thank you.
The Chair now recognizes the gentleman from Wisconsin, Mr.
Grothman.
Mr. Grothman. Yes. Second hearing I have been at today.
Earlier today, we had a hearing on anti-Semitism on campuses,
but they kind of flow together because both show the complete
lack of commonsense of the people running our universities
today. So, two different hearings, but we get the same thing
out of it.
I am going to start with Ms. Gaines. You had participated
in a small group that I was with earlier, and I learned
something kind of out of this. This whole thing is kind of
based on the idea that, you know, people are one way or the
other.
As I understand it, is it true that people go all the way
in transgender, that they still have to take hormones, that
they really--you know, like if a boy becomes a gal, he still
has to--he does not become a gal all the way; he still has to
take hormones to deal with this?
Ms. Gaines. So different governing bodies of different
sports have different rules. So, for example, FINA, which is
the international governing body of swimming, now has
implemented a rule that says, if you have gone through male
puberty, you cannot compete with women. But then you have other
sports, such as soccer, that says you can have--it is a
testosterone threshold. So, I believe now it is 10 nanomoles
per liter of testosterone any person, male, female, can possess
and still be allowed to play on the women's team.
So, it varies by sport. But specifically, the NCAA, they
had a blanket policy in 2010 that just said 12 months of HRT,
which of course is hormone replacement therapy.
Mr. Grothman. One of the things I always wondered about
this--and I will ask Ms. Parshall Perry, and if you do not have
an answer to that, that is OK. As I understand it, from what I
have read, the vast majority of people, 80 to 95 percent, who
go through what they call dysphoric gender identity eventually
come back to their original gender. And I sometimes wonder, as
we normalize this idea of guys playing in women's sports, are
you kind of creating a situation, which would be tragic if it
is true, that some of these guys are never going to switch back
because their whole social setting is praising them for
switching? I think it would be kind of just too bad if they
would have been in the 80 or 95 percent that snap back but
because of this they will not.
Do you think that is a concern, Ms. Perry?
Ms. Parshall Perry. I think absolutely it is a concern. In
fact, studies show that 75 to 90 percent----
Mrs. Foxx. Your mic.
Ms. Perry [continuing]. Of children if they are allowed to
progress through----
Mrs. Foxx. Your mic.
Ms. Perry [continuing]. Seventy-five to 90 percent of
children if allowed to progress through normal puberty
eventually make peace with their natal biological sex and avoid
the trans dilemma all together.
We also know, based on studies, that social transitioning,
including playing on a team specifically articulated by the
Biden Administration in its Notice of Proposed Rulemaking,
playing on the team that you want specifically for your gender
identity not based on sex is an entree into ultimate medical
transitioning.
Now, with the rise of detransitioners which we have seen in
widespread formats, including out in California where Kaiser
Permanente is subject to multiple lawsuits for fast-tracking
gender identitarian surgeries, the mind reels at what the
implications are going to be.
Mr. Grothman. I did read that these people are 19 times
more likely than the rest of the public to commit suicide.
You mean by encouraging these kids to play on an athletic
team that does not match their actual sex, you may be sending
them down this path in which they might wind up killing
themselves?
Ms. Parshall Perry. Absolutely. In addition to using cross-
sex hormones or puberty blockers, that actually sets off many
latent medical health--mental health conditions that may not
have been previously diagnosed.
A full 30 percent in America of young women who are
presenting to a gender confirmation clinic have not been
diagnosed but are ultimately diagnosed with autism spectrum
disorder. As the mother of two children on the autism spectrum
disorder scale, I will tell you right now they are very, very
obvious manifestations that someone not trained to look for
would have to take into account rather than fast-tracking
someone into medical and hormonal castration.
Mr. Grothman. This is really interesting. I mean, I would
say it is one thing if you are dealing with 30-or 35-year-olds,
but we are here largely dealing with people whole are so young,
you know, 14, 15 years old, and you wind up--you are kind of
pushing them toward transitioning and maybe screwing up their
whole life. Is that true?
Ms. Parshall Perry. No question.
Mr. Grothman. OK. Well, thank you very much.
And I will----
Mrs. McClain. Thank you, Mr. Grothman.
The Chair now recognizes Ms. Crockett from Texas.
Ms. Crockett. OK. All right. So most everyone up here on
the other side of the aisle has endorsed a person that has been
found liable for sexual abuse of women to be our President of
the United States, but we are going to talk about how this
party is going to protect women.
Protecting women, what exactly does that mean? Are we going
to talk about sexual abuse? Because we can get into it, because
we do have some real conversations that we can have about it.
Considering the fact that we are currently in the middle of,
say, a war, there has been allegations of rape being used in
war. Seems like maybe we could have a few conversations about
what it would look like to prevent that, what it would look
like to maybe go and get those hostages out, maybe go and send
some money to our allies. It looks like we could do something
of value.
But let me tell you, this session we have set so many good
records. One of those records was we have had a record number
of people that have retired or announced their retirements in
the month of November from the House. And from everything that
I hear, it is because this body has become completely
unserious.
But we do have serious issues, especially when it comes to
women. So, let us talk about what it looks like to protect
women in this country.
When lawmakers like this are so far out of touch with what
women need, we see states pushing back, at least states that
will allow you to push back. I am from the state of Texas. And,
of course, they do not want you to ever have an opportunity to
raise your voice in the state of Texas. In fact, Ms. Parshall
Perry, I know your organization, The Heritage Foundation, loves
Texas. Ooh, they love Texas. They are always sending us some
nonsense bills that somehow set this country on the wrong
trajectory. They send them to Texas. They send them to Florida.
Every deplorable state that we can think about, they usually
are coming at us, you all's think tank.
But nevertheless----
Ms. Greene. Deplorable state. Oh, wow.
Ms. Crockett [continuing]. When we talk about protecting
women, what we have seen is, say--and the state of Ohio was one
of the most recent states. When their lawmakers did not have
the courage to do what they needed to do because, of course, we
believe----
Ms. Greene. Point of order.
Ms. Crockett [continuing]. Because we believe in
gerrymandering in this----
Ms. Greene. Point of order. Point of order. I move to
strike her words, ``deplorable states.''
Mr. Raskin. That is not a point of order. Let the
gentlelady proceed.
Mrs. McClain. The Committee will suspend. Whoa, whoa, whoa,
whoa, whoa. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. The Committee will suspend.
Just hold----
[Discussion off the record.]
Mrs. McClain. So, I am prepared to rule. This is not a
statement. A deplorable state is not a statement against a
person, or it is not engaging in personalities, so I will
continue, and you can reclaim your time.
Ms. Crockett. Thank you, Madam Chair.
So, we saw recently what the state of Ohio did when their
lawmakers refused to listen to them. We also have seen what the
state of Kansas decided to do. When it comes to protecting
women, it seems like the only people that are standing up for
women on an everyday basis are the people themselves. Because
their elected officials that somehow get into these positions
in a gerrymandered way, they do not seem to represent the
interests of the people.
But let me talk to you about something that is very real in
this country, and that is unhoused people. And I am sure that
while we do not have an expert on the matter here, many of you
may not recognize that the majority of the youth that are
actually unhoused in this country are members of the LGBTQIA
community.
When we look at mental health issues in this country, if we
care--because I heard terms that I never thought I would hear
certain people say up in here--we had have heard about
equality. We had have heard about regressiveness. We have heard
about civil rights. I cannot get the Voting Rights Act passed.
We have heard we need to follow the science. Are you kidding
me, when we are sitting up here talking about anti-vaxxing and
all this nonsense?
But let me tell you about somebody that I love very dearly
who has struggled and suffered because of the ignorance that
continues to be perpetuated, which is not what is in the will
of the people. Young Libby, who has been my constituent for far
too long and has gone through too much in the state of Texas.
At the age of 7, Libby started testifying down at the
statehouse about the bathroom bill--I think that was a Heritage
Foundation situation as well--started testifying at the age of
7 about how it made her feel. Then, ultimately, Libby has been
testifying, and at this point Libby is 13 years old.
And I am going to tell you something. I know that it was
characterized as, oh, this is the cool thing to do and maybe
people are encouraged to be trans and so they do not want to
speak out and now that--it is not the easy thing to do when you
have to sit here and prove your personhood every single time
that you are walking around. You have got people that feel a
way because they are losing in a sport--and listen, the trans
person it do not sound like even came in first, from what I
could tell.
But, nevertheless, I think we need to focus on real things
that are real issues as relates to women. If you care about
women, let us get the ERA passed so we can have equal rights.
Let us make sure that we fully fund access to reproductive
health. Let us make sure that we are protecting those that are
being raped because they are being raped in this country as
well as abroad. And this party has decided that even if you are
raped and you are a child, guess what, you should not have
access to reproductive healthcare. That is not protecting
women.
And I will yield.
Mrs. McClain. Thank you.
Before this gets even more out of control, I am going to
try and reel it back in. I am going to remind everybody on what
the title of this hearing is, ``The Importance of Protecting
Female Athletes and Title IX.''
So, Title IX was designed to give female athletes equality,
fairness. This is about--and I am going to restate it again
because we are getting off track--Title IX and protecting
female athletes. I am happy to have other hearings, but I would
like to stay focused on this hearing, if we could, which,
again, is ``The Importance of Protecting Female Athletes and
Title IX.''
And with that--without objection, Representative Takano of
California is waived on to the Subcommittee for purposes of
questioning the witnesses at today's Subcommittee hearing.
And with that, Mr. Burlison is recognized for 5 minutes.
Mr. Burlison. Thank you, Madam Chairwoman, for holding this
hearing.
I think this is an extremely important topic. And I want to
reiterate the words of our colleague from Wisconsin. What is
happening in our universities is insane. It is almost a de-
evolution of thought that has occurred in Western culture for
thousands of years, from philosophers like Plato to Descartes
to Bacon that what is in your mind is not necessarily reality
and the truth. And you can believe all day long in one thing;
it does not mean that it is so.
And so, it is almost like this Nation and this attitude
that we want to throw out all of this conventional thinking for
centuries is really going to be the undoing of this Nation. But
if you want to know where this Administration stands, all you
have to do is look at the position statement from President
Biden. He said, and I quote, ``Let us be clear, transgender
equality is the civil rights issue of our time. There is no
room for compromise when it comes to basic human rights.''
There is no room for compromise? That is pretty--that is a
very definitive statement.
Ms. Gaines, what would you say to those that claim that
there is no room for compromise when it comes to men competing
in women's sports?
Ms. Gaines. That statement, I am just--truthfully, I am not
even honestly sure what that would entail. In terms of
compromise from women, I do not believe we should have to
compromise anything. We should be--and this is what Title IX's
original intent was, we should be entitled to competing on the
basis of sex and without facing discrimination. But, again,
what myself and my teammates and my competitors and girls
around the country, high school level, college level, continue
to face is blatant discrimination on the basis of our sex.
Mr. Burlison. Yes. I can tell you, I am a father of two
girls who both participated in sports. And I will tell you,
when you are the parent on the sidelines and you are watching,
the competitive--you know, every--all that nature flows. And
when you see an injustice occur, you know, whether it is teams
that are having children that are older than your kids, you
know, playing or in the--and sometimes--I will never forget.
For many years, boys and girls were equal, especially in
soccer, right, which my girls competed in. But there was a
point in which it was no longer the case. And as a parent, and
all the parents on the sidelines, we would actually count the
number, especially still in co-ed, we would count the number of
boys and determine, you know, which team is probably going to
win. And so, it was nice whenever they were able to actually
hit an age where they were able to compete against other girls
and other women.
But sadly, that is why everybody who sees what is happening
knows that this is injustice. Anyone who is a parent who sees
what is happening knows that this is an injustice. In fact, a
survey of parents in the United States concluded that 70
percent of parents do not think that this is a good idea, and
yet we are doing it. And so--or that it is being done at our
university levels. And, of course, if you object, you are
considered trans--you know, transgressive or transphobic, and
you are effectively canceled.
Ms. Russell, you were effectively canceled for standing up
for female athletes on your team. What would you say to others
in a similar position who are wondering whether or not they
should speak out?
Ms. Russell. I would still suggest that everybody speak up
because it is because of silence that this continues. There
are--the amount of support I received once I went public, the
number of emails, direct messages, phone calls all was
positive. Everything on social media was positive in support of
this position that girls and women sports needs to stay female
only.
Mr. Burlison. Well, Ms. Russell, thank you for your
courageous stand. We appreciate that.
I just want to say, you know, to Ms. Gaines, what happened
to you is tragic. I mean, you were robbed of the glory. You
were robbed of your opportunity to be clearly the victor. And
if it were not so tragic, it would be comical. And I understand
there is a movie being made, the comedy about this very issue,
on The Daily Wire that I cannot wait to see.
Ms. Gaines. I encourage everyone to watch it. And,
truthfully, I think that is what is needed, because what we are
seeing, again, what myself and my teammates and my competitors
saw was a mockery, a mockery of women. And I believe it is time
we mock the mockery through comedy because, you are right, it
is objectively funny. It is inherent to almost look at this and
laugh because it feels like satire. But watching that movie, to
which I watched, it did not feel like satire. It felt like a
documentary of what, again, myself and girls around the country
continue to go through.
Mr. Burlison. Thank you.
My time has expired.
Mrs. McClain. Thank you.
The Chair now recognizes Mr. Takano for 5 minutes.
Mr. Takano. I thank the Chair, and I thank the Committee
for the opportunity to participate.
You know, Ms. Russell, these numbers--I will try to get the
substantiation somewhere. But men in this country
interscholastically receive $252 million more in athletic
scholarships than women for the 2019-2020 year. And girls
generally have approximately $1.1 million fewer opportunities
than boys to participate in high school athletics. Title IX has
not been able to fix that.
Does this seem--does this ring true, the statistic I just
read to you?
Ms. Russell. I do not have the statistic in front of me,
but what I do know is that there are so many more opportunities
because of Title IX. And if we allow men and boys into women's
sports, which is what is happening, then those opportunities--
--
Mr. Takano. I just want to get your reaction to whether----
Ms. Russell [continuing]. For more scholarships go away for
women.
Mr. Takano. Well, I do not know whether or not excluding
transgender athletes from participating fixes this gross
inequity of $252 million more in athletic scholarships for
women [sic] and $1.1 million fewer opportunities for girls than
boys to participate in high school athletics. My point is that
excluding transgender athletes who constitute less than one
percent of this country is not a fix to the gender inequities
in sports.
Let me just read to you----
Ms. Russell. Am I allowed to say something?
Mr. Takano. No. I reclaim my time.
I want to read to you an excerpt of the veto message from
Governor Spencer Cox of Utah when he vetoed the trans ban in
sports. He said there is--he reads his final reason for this
veto. He says, ``I must admit, I am not an expert in
transgenderism. I struggle to understand much of it and the
science is conflicting. When in doubt, however, I always try to
err on the side of kindness, mercy, and compassion. I also try
to get proximate, and I am learning so much more--so much from
our transgender community. They are great kids who face
enormous struggles. And here are the numbers that have most
impacted my decision: 75,000, 4, 1, 86, and 56.
"75,000 high school kids participating in high school
sports in Utah. Four transgender kids playing high school
sports in Utah. One transgender student playing girls sports.
Eighty-six percent of trans students reporting suicidality.
Fifty-six percent of trans youth having attempted suicide.
``Four kids and only one of them playing girls sports. That
is what all this is about. Four kids who are not dominating or
winning trophies or taking scholarships. Four kids who were
just trying to find some friends and feel like they are part of
something. Four kids trying to get through each day. Rarely has
so much fear and anger been directed at so few. I do not
understand what they are going through or why they feel the way
they do. But I want them to live. And all the research shows
that even a little acceptance and connection can reduce
suicidality significantly. And for that reason, as much as any
other, I have taken this action''--meaning to veto this bill--
``and hope that we can continue to work together and find a
better way. If a veto override occurs, I hope we can work to
find ways to show these four kids that we love them and that
they have a place in our state.''
I find that remarkable.
Now, following that veto and following the override, it is
interesting because there was an incident in Utah where parents
perceived that the winner of a contest, of an athletic contest,
was really not of that gender, was not really a girl. And so,
what happened is the parents forced this woman, this young girl
to undergo a genital inspection because her body type did not
conform to that of what they thought was a girl and feminine.
And I just want to insert this article, you know, ``Judge
Blocks Utah Trans Sports Ban, While Probe of Athlete Emerges,''
into the record.
I also would like unanimous consent to enter into the
record the veto message of Spencer Cox of Utah, the Governor of
Utah.
Mrs. McClain. Without objection.
Mr. Takano. Ms. Goss Graves, I mean, you cited earlier this
issue of straight girls who win being subjected potentially to
this invasion of privacy.
Ms. Goss Graves. That is correct. All girls are subject to
these sorts of sex verification processes, whether it be the
abusive genital examinations or tracking menstrual cycles or
other sorts of deep invasions of privacy. But I think who will
be most harmed by that, actually, are the girls who do not
generally fit a stereotype, and there has been a lot of
stereotype conversation today. Lots of people fit a stereotype
and lots of people do not conform to stereotypes. And Title IX
for 50 years has had something to say about that.
Mr. Takano. Thank you.
I am sorry for going over, Madam Chair. I yield back.
Mrs. McClain. Thank you.
Ms. Russell, I will give you a few seconds to respond.
Ms. Russell. This is the second time I have heard in here
exclusion of transgender athletes. We are not talking about
excluding anyone. We are talking about keeping female sports
for biological females only, women's and girls' sports for
biological females only. That does not exclude anyone.
Mrs. McClain. Thank you.
The Chair now recognizes Ms. Foxx, Chairman Foxx for 5
minutes.
Ms. Foxx. Ms. Russell, I would like to continue on this
issue. In terms of what Mr. Takano was saying, my understanding
is, along your line, it is not just--and it is not a matter
of--it is not just a matter of people who pretend to be girls
or women who are biological males moving into girls' and
women's sports to take a place, but is not there an issue of
the difference in strength and the issue of safety? Aren't
those primary issues with saying biological men should not be
competing against biological women?
Ms. Russell. You are correct. So even if a biological male
is on puberty blockers--I mean, sorry--testosterone blockers,
they can still maintain their muscle mass with their workouts.
As far as the safety, right now we just talked about three
different high school athletes who have been injured by
biological males. One of those biological males is not
transgender. And the speed of the shot that he took that hit
the girl in the mouth in field hockey, if you do not know what
a field hockey ball looks like, it is harder than a baseball
and harder than a lacrosse ball. The muscle mass in men, it is
not just that; it is the body composition. The hips are
thinner. They are not made to give birth to children.
Ms. Foxx. Right, right.
Ms. Russell. They are not made to breastfeed children.
Ms. Foxx. Thank you very much.
Ms. Gaines, thank you very much for the great work that you
are doing in bringing this issue, keeping this issue in the
forefront of people's minds.
The lack of transparency provided by the Biden
Administration about changes to Title IX and other aspects of
their social agenda is concerning, particularly for parents.
Ms. Gaines, how did your parents find out you would be changing
clothes in the same locker room as a biological male?
Ms. Gaines. Well, I had to call my parents. As mentioned in
my testimony, we were not forewarned we would be sharing a
changing space. The only time--the first time we became aware
we would be forced to undress next to, again, this 6-foot-4,
22-year-old male, fully intact with and exposing male
genitalia, was when we were inches away from this male also
simultaneously undressing.
And I will tell you, I called my parents, specifically my
dad, and he was outraged.
Ms. Foxx. And so, no one was informed about this ahead of
time.
What are your former teammates--I am sure you have been
around them. How are they responding to these sweeping changes
in women's sports?
Ms. Gaines. Being team captain at University of Kentucky
both my junior and senior year, I made sure to facilitate an
environment where everyone felt comfortable sharing their
views. And what I noticed was 38 out of the 40 girls on the
women's swimming and diving team felt the exact same way I am
sharing with you. And, again, I do not claim to speak for every
single girl, but I do claim to speak for the overwhelming
majority of us because I saw the tears from the girls who, of
course, placed 9th and 17th and missed out on being named an
all-American by one place. And I felt the extreme discomfort,
and I can attest to the whispers of anger and frustration from
those girls who, just like myself, had worked our entire lives
to get to that point.
Ms. Foxx. Thank you.
Ms. Parshall Perry, what impact do you believe the Biden
Administration's attempts to change Title IX will have in
parental involvement in women's sports? And how important is
parental involvement? Why should we protect it?
Ms. Parshall Perry. Well, this Administration is keen to
divest parents of their constitutional authority to oversee the
care and upbringing of their children at every turn. And the
rise in what we have seen of these confidential gender identity
policies and publicly funded schools is a perfect example of
that, divesting parents from their ability to be involved in
the children's sports. The competitive nature of what will
ultimately invest them going forward with the maturity and the
success that they will need later in life I do not think just
involves parents, I think ultimately involves a disservice to
teachers, to educators, to school administrators. And the fact
of the matter is just the second of these two rules is patently
unconstitutional and will not survive a legal challenge.
Ms. Foxx. Ms. Parshall Perry, in their April 13 proposed
rule, the Biden Administration uses the Bostock v. Clayton
County ruling as justification. What is the Biden
Administration's error in using this ruling?
Ms. Parshall Perry. It is hard to contain it into a very
brief statement, but I will say that the opinion began with
Justice Gorsuch writing, ``We begin with the assumption that
sex means biological distinctions between male and female.'' At
no point was sex expanded to include gender identity. Title IX
and Title VII are completely different. Title VII, which was at
issue in Bostock, is an employment law that prevents
consideration at all of underlying sex or sex characteristics.
Title IX, however, is exactly the opposite. It requires
consideration of sex.
And because Gorsuch was clear to cabin the opinion saying,
exclusively, we are not talking about anything but employment
discrimination law, we are not discussing pronouns, bathrooms,
dress codes, or locker rooms, that, unfortunately, was not a
message I think the Department of Education was keen to listen
to, so they patently ignored it.
Ms. Foxx. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Mrs. McClain. Thank you, Ms. Parshall Perry.
I want to make one clarification that the Ranking Member of
the full Committee made. Our current Title IX rule in no way
prevents transgender students from participating in sports. It
simply said a school did not violate Title IX by having them
compete based on their biological sex.
So, I just want to clarify that for the record.
And since I gave Ms. Russell a few extra minutes, I will
tack that time on to you, Mr. Casar, so I----
Ms. Lee. Madam Chair, I ask unanimous consent to enter into
the record this study by the British Journal of Sports Medicine
showing that after 2 years of hormone therapy, most athletic
performance differences between trans women and cis women
disappear, challenging what we have heard today that would have
you think all trans women are so physically superior to
cisgender women that they are bound to win every match and
injure all opponents along the way. This narrative is not
supported by science.
Mrs. McClain. Without objection, so ordered.
Mrs. McClain. With that, the Chair now recognizes Mr. Casar
for 5-ish minutes.
Mr. Casar. Thank you, Chair.
I want to take a step back and think about the big picture
of what we have been talking about in this Committee hearing
when we talk about trans youth participating in sports. Because
when we are here at the seat of government in the U.S. Capitol
and we talk about young people, I think we should be talking
about how we support them. And if anyone needs support, it is
probably trans youth who are more likely to have faced bullying
and isolation and doubt and usually have a harder time than
most of our kids.
But instead of talking about how to support all of our
youth, especially our most vulnerable youth, people in my
state, like Greg Abbott, have used their government power to
pick on trans kids and get TV news hits about those kids'
ability to play in sports. And instead of funding schools,
supporting teachers or counselors or youth programs, I have got
an extremist legislature singling out what we have been talking
about today, a small handful of kids who are already suffering
from pain with more pain.
Because those families that I have met with and am talking
about, they know that when we spend our time in these seats of
power talking about them instead of with them about these
challenges, that creates even worse mental health issues, even
more just really hard times for some of these families who are
now questioning their own residency in my state. That is what
we are dealing with here today.
And so, like any other athlete, trans athletes sometimes
win, sometimes they lose. But in talking with a very small
handful of them, they talk about how this is a chance at
comradery, this is a chance at relaxation, this is a chance at
teamwork.
And so, in my view, instead of spending our time picking on
trans youth, we should be listening to them, bringing
communities together, figuring out how to solve the real
challenges that our youth face, rather than angling for the
latest segment on FOX News. We should be focused on expanding
opportunities for all of our young people and find ways to let
kids be kids.
So, now for my questions. Ms. Goss Graves, are you aware of
any reason to believe that allowing trans athletes to
participate in girls' athletics is limiting opportunities for
cisgender athletes?
Ms. Goss Graves. Absolutely not. In fact, there is a lot of
gender inequity in sports and in schools. The trans athletes
are not the source of it. They are not the source of resource
inequity. They are not the source of not having the same level
of coaching. They are not the source of not opening up new
sports teams when you have a group of girls who say, ``I just
want to try playing lacrosse and your school will not start a
lacrosse team.''
Trans athletes are not the reason that we have gender
inequity in sports, and they are not the reason that, 50 years
after Title IX was passed, its broad promise of addressing sex
discrimination in education is still unfulfilled.
Mr. Casar. Thank you for that answer.
And so, Ms. Goss Graves, how could we, since we are in
these seats of power, better support women's athletics and
increase opportunities for girls and women who want to
participate in sports?
Ms. Goss Graves. There is a range of things that would be
important. You could provide additional resources to schools,
especially schools who have fewer resources to devote to
sports. Oftentimes what we have found in areas where they have
fewer resources, what they end up doing is investing hugely
into male sports programs and deciding that they are not going
to invest in female sports programs.
You could also take action on the information that has come
out about sexual abuse in sports, abuse by coaches, by athletic
trainers, by sometimes medical doctors. This is not something
that is coming out about trans athletes. It is about schools
looking away from the harm that their employees are causing.
There are a range of things I would be happy to work with
you and with this Committee on it.
Mr. Casar. So, as Mr. Takano mentioned, the four trans
athletes in Utah, it is not them that caused the huge
disproportionality in funding for men's sports versus women's
sports. In fact, what you are saying here is it may not be
trans athletes or is not trans athletes taking opportunities
away who are in sports; it might actually be guys like us on
daises like this one not investing equally in women's sports.
Actually, I have here an example from the Women's Sports
Foundation saying that men received $252 million more in
athletic scholarships than women in the years 2019 and 2020. A
report released last year for the 50th anniversary of Title IX
found that men's athletic programs received more than twice as
many resources as women's athletic programs in 2020, and
expenditures for recruiting and compensating head and assistant
coaches favored male athletes about three to one.
So, I want to enter both of those documents into the
record. First, the May 2022 report from the Women's Sports
Foundation, titled, ``50 Years of Title IX: We're Not Done
Yet.'' So, I would like unanimous consent to enter that into
the record, along with this report from 2022 from the NCAA,
titled, ``The state of Women in College Sports.''
Mr. Fry. [Presiding.] Without objection.
Mr. Casar. Thank you.
So, I think that this is a really important part of the
question. One, how can we better support young people in
general? And then, second, if the claim is that by supporting
trans young people and their mental health and their ability to
be fully included in themselves, we are hurting women's sports,
then we will actually ask ourselves, what is actually hurting
women's sports? And it might be the amount of scholarship money
that many of us who were male athletes immediately had access
to that women athletes did not have access to, or the fact that
many of us who were male athletes could participate in sports
over the summer and in the fall semester and in the spring
semester and do a second set of sports and that you already had
your uniforms paid for and you already had the ability to get
state championship trips paid for. Maybe we could be talking
about those things if we are going to be talking about sports.
Ms. Goss Graves, just to close here, how can bans on trans
athletes participating in girls' and women's athletics actually
also harm those cis students?
Ms. Goss Graves. Well, we have talked a lot about the sort
of sex verification that we have seen. And that is how you
prove--how states are requiring proving up that you are girl
enough or woman enough to play. But I also just want to say
this has been studied. The issue of trans exclusionary
policies, sports participation for girls overall in high school
declined in states that had trans exclusion policies. So, when
we are inclusive, everyone wins.
Mr. Casar. Wait, so you are saying where there have been
more trans inclusive policies, you have actually had more women
participate in sports?
Ms. Goss Graves. Correct. That is correct.
Mr. Casar. Thank you.
I yield back.
Mr. Fry. The gentleman yields.
The Chair now recognizes himself for 5 minutes for the
purpose of asking questions.
You know, what is interesting about this entire debate, we
dealt with this in South Carolina when I was in the general
assembly. It shocked me the polling when you look at this, the
amount of people that support keeping girls in girls' sports
and men in men's sports, 70 percent around the country. The
American people cannot agree 70 percent on anything. But on
this they are there. They understand it, and it makes
commonsense.
And so, Ms. Gaines, when you travel the country, what are
some of the things, the stories that you hear from women who
are seeing this in their schools and on their campuses?
Ms. Gaines. Well, first and foremost to your point, as we
see a lot of times both at the state and Federal level how
Representatives vote, Senators vote, Delegates vote, how we see
the media portray this issue, it seems as if it falls on party
lines. But just as you said, that could not be further from the
truth.
This extends beyond the political aisle, and that is
certainly something I have seen traveling the country, going
state to state, talking to women who have been impacted by this
in some capacity, whether that be in their sport, whether that
be women in prisons who have dealt with men--male inmates being
allowed into their prisons, whether that be, again, the case of
the sorority in Wyoming, whatever the situation might be,
bathroom instances. As we saw this week a headline about a male
who was allowed to sleep in a bed and be roomed with a woman,
and the answer is always the same thing, in that this is
harmful specifically to women. It adversely affects women.
Again, this whole hearing we have not talked about females
entering into men's sports because that is not a threat, and it
is not happening, and it will not happen because this is only
happening one way, and that way is the way that affects women
negatively.
Mr. Fry. Right. And so, you look at the polling on this--
and we just talked about this, but it is remarkable to me--I
mean, this is the success of Title IX. When you have, you know,
roughly 300,000 at the start in 1972, female athletes and now
you are over 3 million, people understand what is going on.
Your parents understood what was happening in your locker room.
They understand what is going on. That is why they are so
supportive of keeping a fair playing field and supporting Title
IX in its original intent.
What are some of the concerns--and maybe not the specific
instances, but maybe some of the themes that you hear from
women across the country?
Ms. Gaines. Well, one, as we mentioned, safety aspects,
especially in sports that require physical contact or throwing
something at one another or collision, these girls are scared.
Another thing I hear across the country is women are
terrified to speak out. They are terrified to be vilified. They
are terrified to be called transphobic or bigots, like we have
been called in this hearing today, for stating our views, and
that is a real threat. And I understand it, because since
taking the stance that I have taken, my address has been
leaked. And since my address was leaked, I have had people
showing up at my doorstep. I have had drones flying above my
house. I cannot even tell you the amount of death threats that
I have had that have rendered the FBI getting involved. It is
real. The vitriol I have faced. I have been held for ransom for
over 4 hours where these protestors demanded that if I wanted
to make it home to see my family safely again, I had to pay
them money. I have been hit. I have been spit on. I have had
bottles thrown at me, drinks poured on me.
Again, Thomas' teammates in particular, they were forced
every single week to go to mandatory LGBTQ education meetings
to learn about how just by being cisgender, they were
oppressing Thomas. And when they were concerned about the
locker room aspect and 16 of these swimmers, Thomas' teammates,
sent an email to their administration, with their parents on
the email, expressing their discomfort in the locker room, the
Administration responded back with, ``if you feel uncomfortable
seeing male genitalia, here is some counseling resources that
you should seek in an attempt to reeducate yourself.''
At Roanoke College----
Mr. Fry. In light of the time, Ms. Gaines, just real
quickly----
Ms. Gaines. Yes.
Mr. Fry. I know that the locker room situation that you
described earlier, do you think that the NCAA is actually
working to improve this situation or is it kind of status quo
with them and sweeping it under the rug?
Ms. Gaines. It is certainly status quo. President Charlie
Baker testified in front of the Senate Judiciary Committee a
few weeks ago. And when confronted with that exact question,
you know, what does this policy pertaining to the locker rooms
look like right now, he could not answer. He did not know what
the policy was. He had to tell Senator Hawley, well, let me get
back to you in writing.
And I think that is incredibly telling for the NCAA
president to not even know the policy as it stands pertaining
to locker rooms.
Mr. Fry. Ms. Parshall Perry, you described that the Federal
Government is perpetuating an athletic fraud of unprecedented
proportions on students.
Do you think, one, that the Biden Administration's efforts
will actually leave a lasting impact on women's sports? And a
followup of that, do you hope to see a different approach in a
different administration?
Ms. Parshall Perry. I think the best and different approach
would be to leave Title IX alone as it was originally intended
to be interpreted. There was no ambiguity whatsoever in the
definition of sex. And, ultimately, what keeps us here is our
failure to identify biological distinctions between one sex and
another. We can use terms like ``cis'' or ``trans'' all we
want, but men and women are different, and the American public
knows it, which is why 70 percent of the American populous
wants sports separated by sex. The Washington Post, Harvard
Harris, Rasmussen Reports, all of them across the line, no
matter their ideological bent, all indicate that Americans want
sex-separated sports.
I do have a very strong feeling that this law will
automatically be challenged in a Federal court. We know that
the notice of interpretive guidance has already been seized. It
is already now based on 20 states. It is in a holding pattern
based on the ultimate release of this final rule. It Is a
violation of administrative law, civil rights law, and
constitutional law. And the ways to challenge it are too long,
I think, for the timeframe of this hearing today.
Mr. Fry. Thank you for that, Ms. Parshall Perry.
And with that, I recognize Mr. Garcia of California for 5
minutes.
Ms. Lee. Very quickly, Mr. Chair. I would like to seek
unanimous consent to enter into the record a court decision
from the District Court of Utah in Roe v. Utah High School
Activities Association. My colleagues have asserted that their
proposed interpretation of Title IX would not prevent trans
kids from participating in a sport. But as a Utah district
court acknowledged in Roe v. Utah High School Activities
Association regarding trans girls on girls' sports teams,
quote, ``If they are not eligible to play on girls' teams, they
have no meaningful opportunity to play at all.''
Mr. Fry. Without objection.
Mr. Fry. Mr. Garcia, you are recognized for 5 minutes.
Mr. Garcia. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. So, I,
first of all, thank you for allowing me to waive on this
hearing today.
I think it is important to have different perspectives.
And, certainly, before my time being here in Congress for this
last year, I served as Mayor of my community, but before that,
most importantly, I worked for 10 years on a college campus.
And so, I understand very well what the experiences of my
former students have had and what being an athlete and having
those experiences also means for so many students.
Let me also just say that an advancement for women in
sports and athletes has been incredible, of course, over the
last two decades. And I have seen even my own institution, the
university where I worked at, the ability to transition and
encourage women's sports, to fund sports in a way that is
equitable for all of our students has always been really
important. And so, I celebrate in advance how far women
athletes have come in sports for women across our university
systems and community colleges. It has been really something to
celebrate.
I also think it is important as an openly gay person to
recognize that our community, especially trans people in our
community, are constantly being attacked. And I know that some
folks have said that--or being called bigots or you fear there
is bigotry, well, there is a lot of bigotry, particularly
against people that are trans in this country and against the
LGBTQ+ community.
What the rest of us like myself as an openly gay person,
gay man, faces nothing compared to what transgender people face
in this country. And our community needs to be divided--and we
cannot be divided amongst ourselves when this hateful, kind of
vile language happens to so many that are already suffering
from severe challenges and disadvantages in this country.
Now, we know this Subcommittee is tasked with oversight
over Federal healthcare policy, food and drug safety, and
monetary policy, all important things, but instead, of course,
we are focused on the cruelty toward the LGBTQ+ people at the
Federal level. Now, our voters sent us here to address our
country's biggest challenges, but instead we are, once again,
going into battle and trying to move our rights backward not
forward.
We know that the Majority oftentimes goes back to moral
panic and inciting what I believe is violence and hatred toward
gay people, and we have seen this playbook over and over again.
Now, sports remain a place where all LGBTQ+ people can feel
free to play and to be accepted. We also know that LGBTQ+
people are underrepresented in sports and particularly trans
and nonbinary athletes. There are fewer, by the way, than 100
trans and nonbinary athletes in NCAA sports out of over a
quarter of a million athletes. So, the 226,000 athletes that
participate, we are talking about less than 100 actual people.
And I want to remind us that there are less than one percent of
people identify as trans in the United States when you look at
the whole population. Either it is .4 or .5 percent identify as
trans.
So, what we are really talking about here is a very small
percentage of the population that are constantly being attacked
and attacked and attacked over and over again. And we know that
for trans people, their lives are already endangered in so many
ways around mental health challenges and access to healthcare.
Now, Ms. Goss Graves, is there any reason to think that
people are transitioning, often completely radically changing
their life and their health, just to gain a competitive
advantage in women's sports?
Ms. Goss Graves. There is absolutely no evidence of that.
And, actually, putting that notion out there in a formal
setting with policymakers sends a really terrible message.
If I could just say one thing about what I hope transgender
young people who may be watching this hearing know, and that
is, the sort of legislative bullying that they may experience
in their states or they may have heard in these halls is not
where the majority of the people in this country are. In fact,
the vast majority of people see right through it and do not
like that bullying.
Mr. Garcia. And I agree with you.
And you may or may not know this, but there are more
Republican and far-right bills moving through legislatures and
through different bodies across the country than they are
actually trans kids and youth playing in sports across the
country. And so, the attacks that are happening we should be
ashamed of.
And, as I reminder, as I conclude, half of trans and non-
binary youth struggle with thoughts of suicide every single
year. And that is what this hearing should be about, versus the
attacks on trans athletes.
I yield back.
Mrs. McClain. Again, this is a hearing about women,
protecting women and protecting Title IX. It is not against any
group.
But, with that, I recognize Mr. Langworthy for 5 minutes.
Mr. Langworthy. Thank you, Chair McClain, for holding this
hearing.
And I cannot believe that I have to say this here today,
but biological males competing in women's sports is
fundamentally unfair.
My colleagues on the other side of the aisle time and again
tell us to follow and trust the science. Yet we are here,
having to have a debate on a subject in which science has
proven definitively that males have a physiological advantage
over women, including body size; greater muscle mass; increased
lung capacity; larger hearts, bone density, and mass; and less
body fat.
These differences create significant performance gaps
between post-pubescent males and females. And these are the
facts. And those who claim otherwise are threatening the
integrity of Title IX and the ability of women to compete on an
equal playing field.
The Department of Education's proposed rule conflates sex
with gender identity and block schools from adopting and
enforcing policies that altogether ban transgender students
competing on teams consistent with their gender identity. This
move sacrifices the integrity of sports, denying the importance
of maintaining a level playing field for all athletes.
Ms. Parshall Perry, you previously wrote that, rather than
clarifying Title IX's application to sex-based criteria to
athletics, that this proposal complicates it. Could you
elaborate on that?
Ms. Parshall Perry. It makes something that was previously
very cut-and-dried, very simple, and for which there are five
decades of jurisprudence and congressional history, and
suddenly likes to pretend that we do not understand what this
definition of ``sex'' was.
In fact, this took--this particular law that we discuss
today was the result of 250 different versions between House
and Senate bills and months and months of negotiation. So, to
say that somehow ``sex,'' when it was adopted, was somehow
ambiguous is just patently untrue.
So, what we have seen, even after Title IX was amended in
1987 with the Civil Rights Restoration Act, there was
specifically an opportunity to again go back to the drawing
board to expand the definition of ``sex'' to include gender
identity.
This is about, at bottom, the rule of law, the
Constitution, and congressional authority. The Biden
Administration cannot, with the stroke of a pen, unilaterally
redefine longstanding Federal law without going through the
appropriate process.
Mr. Langworthy. Thank you.
And, Ms. Gaines, your profound dedication to sports,
including your tenure as a swimmer at Kentucky's women's teams,
it speaks volumes.
Given your extensive experience, do you fear that if the
Biden Administration redefines Title IX to encompass gender
identity that it might deprive young women of academic and
athletic prospects that they rightfully deserve?
Ms. Gaines. Of course.
As we have seen, again, at least the past year and a half
since I have really started noticing this issue after I was
directly impacted by it--we are seeing this as a trend, and it
is an exponential trend, and, again, only going one way--and
that is, adversely affecting women.
So, I believe if the Biden Administration pursues this
rewrite and equates sex with gender identity, this would most
certainly negatively harm women.
Mr. Langworthy. And as per the Washington Post, women's
sports have seen an incredible surge, growing over 1,000
percent in the last 50 years, and, as many have said, 3 million
participants in 2022.
Do you share the concerns that allowing biological men to
dominate women's sports might discourage women and girls from
pursuing athletics, K-12 and in higher education?
Ms. Gaines. Absolutely. And it is not only necessarily the
domination aspect. It is the safety aspect. It is the fear of
speaking out. It is the locker-room aspect. Those are all
contributors to ultimately discouraging women from playing
sports.
And I want to say, too, it is not about domination. A male
playing on a women's team, even if he places dead-last, it is
still taking a roster spot, it is still taking an opportunity
away from a deserving woman. So, it is not all about
domination.
But, yes, I certainly believe this issue does discourage
women from playing sports.
Mr. Langworthy. Thank you.
This intrusion threatens to undermine hard-fought progress
and to deter future generations from embracing the
opportunities sports offer.
And with my remaining time, I want to turn back to you, Ms.
Parshall Perry. What more can Congress do to ensure that the
Biden Administration is not able to radically alter Title IX?
Ms. Parshall Perry. A couple of things.
First, if this rule is published, this chamber has 60 days
to be able to vote on a congressional Review Act challenge and
disapprove the law. I encourage the individuals who are
forthright and brave, with a courageous steel spine, to be able
to do just that.
If for some reason a congressional Review Act challenge
fails and it goes through to the Federal Register, I am quite
certain there are a number of individual public-interest law
firms that are ready to file suit.
And in the interim, this chamber, as well as the upper
chamber, should consider passing legislation specifically to
keep sex separated and distinct by biological sex.
Mr. Langworthy. Thank you.
Many of us in this Committee and across Congress were
parents and were grandparents to young women who will directly
bear the consequences of an Administration that chooses to
ignore a scientific reality--the clear and biological
differences between men and women. We cannot stand by and allow
radical policies to trample on commonsense.
And I am proud to yield back, Madam Chair.
Mrs. McClain. Thank you.
The Chair now recognizes Mrs. Luna for 5 minutes.
Mrs. Luna. Madam Chair, I would like to make a point of
order.
Mrs. McClain. The Subcommittee will suspend.
State the point of order.
Mrs. Luna. I identify with my pronouns as state and states,
and, thus, I move to strike ``deplorable states'' from the
record.
Mrs. McClain. The Committee will suspend.
The point of order is not timely due to intervening debate
occurring after the words were said. Point of order is
overruled.
Mrs. Luna. Thank you.
Ms. Gaines, are you familiar with the name Caitlyn Jenner?
Ms. Gaines. I am.
Mrs. Luna. Can you tell me real quick--because we are on
time here--who Caitlyn Jenner is?
Ms. Gaines. Yes. Caitlyn Jenner is formerly Bruce Jenner,
who, of course, was and still is one of the world's most
renowned and accomplished athletes, competing in the men's
decathlon, winning gold medals and world records, but now, of
course, has transitioned, identifies as Caitlyn Jenner, and is
not competing in sports anymore competitively.
Mrs. Luna. Are you aware that Caitlyn Jenner has come out
against men competing in women's sports?
Ms. Gaines. I am.
Mrs. Luna. Why do you think Caitlyn Jenner did that?
Ms. Gaines. Given the fact that he is an athlete himself,
was an athlete, I believe he understands the differences
between men and women.
And given the fact that he has also transitioned, I believe
he understands the struggles that come with gender dysphoria
and what that looks like, has weighed the differences between
the two, and still sees a fundamental unfairness about allowing
men into women's sports.
Mrs. Luna. As a Member of Congress, we are in charge of
putting together the guidelines for our offices, specifically
referencing sexual harassment.
Would you consider exposing genitalia to someone who does
not want to see that as sexual harassment?
Ms. Gaines. I certainly would.
Mrs. Luna. Do you feel that you have been sexually harassed
as a result of biological men competing and having to undress
in front of you and other women in the locker room?
Ms. Gaines. I do. Again, nonconsensually being exploited in
front of a fully naked and fully intact male, I believe that
meets the definition of sexual harassment.
Mrs. Luna. Have you ever been physically attacked by
standing up for women's rights in sports?
Ms. Gaines. I have.
Mrs. Luna. Can you name the biological sexes of those that
have attacked you?
Ms. Gaines. They were men who were dressed as women.
Mrs. Luna. Can you repeat that again?
Ms. Gaines. They were males who were dressed as women.
Mrs. Luna. So, you were attacked by men?
Ms. Gaines. Yes.
Mrs. Luna. Can you let me know whether or not law
enforcement pressed charges?
Ms. Gaines. There were no charges pressed.
The university actually--this was at San Francisco State
University. The university, in the days following--actually,
that next day after this attack took place--where, again, I was
held for ransom for 4 hours, with the police actually being
held for ransom in the same room with me--the university
released a statement.
It was Dr. Jamillah Moore, who is the Vice President of the
Student Affairs at San Francisco State University. She released
an email to their entire student body saying she was so proud
of their brave students for handling me in the manner that they
did, applauded them, and then gave them counseling resources to
help cope with my presence on their campus.
Mrs. Luna. Do you think that there should be accountability
for a man who hits a woman?
Ms. Gaines. Absolutely.
Mrs. Luna. Do you feel that you are personally being
basically outed by even some Members up here because of the
fact that you are standing up for women's sports?
Ms. Gaines. Yes. I believe being called transphobic for
saying that women deserve privacy, that we deserve safety, that
we deserve equal opportunities, we deserve to maintain our
dignity--I believe that is certainly an attack on my character,
for sure.
Mrs. Luna. I would just like to clarify for the record, I
do believe in a woman's right for self-defense. So, I mean, as
someone who has personally applied for my concealed carry, I
think that you should do the same, because, obviously, you are
being attacked. And I think that that would be a great second
debate here with House Oversight. But I think that that is
something that you should consider doing, being that you have
received threats because of what you are doing currently. So,
just for the record.
Ms. Gaines. I am way ahead of you.
Mrs. Luna. Good.
I just want to close out by saying this. You know, up here,
especially being a new mother, I find it very ironic that
people that seem that they would champion women's rights are
now throwing someone like you under the bus.
And I just want to say for the record, there is no such
thing as a ``birthing person'', it is called ``mother.'' There
is no such thing as ``chestfeeding'', it is called
``breastfeeding.'' And, finally, there is no such thing as
equality for women if you are attempting to eliminate from
sports.
Thank you, Ms. Gaines.
Ms. Gaines. Thank you.
Mrs. McClain. The Chair now recognizes Mr. Sessions for 5
minutes.
Mr. Sessions. Madam Chairman, thank you very much, and
thank you for holding this hearing.
I would like to, if I could, engage at least Ms. Parshall
Perry and Ms. Russell, as coaches and people who have been into
sport for a huge number of years.
You have recognized the NCAA and their authority over
sports. As it conducts itself--what I believe is, they have
always tried to create fairness, whether it is betting, whether
it is hundreds of rules and regulations about recruiting,
things that they have rules on literally A to Z.
I was an athlete. I do not remember if it was a D1 or D2
school, quite honestly, because if I called it a D1, I think it
used to be a D2 school; it is now a D1 school. But I was a D1
or -2 athlete and went through a number of rules and
regulations, and right and wrong, and good and bad, and how
things worked, and have been used to that, as one of my sons is
a recruited D1 athlete.
And the NCAA has a lot of governance. And they always tend
to know the answer. And they always tend to have a rule
governing what I think is fairness but also safety.
This seems like, to me, that the NCAA, if they are the
governing body over what occurs at NCAA meets or matches,
should be very concerned about this.
What do you believe--where do you believe they have failed
to provide guidance and governance and safety in this issue?
Either one of you, please.
Ms. Parshall Perry. I can say specifically that the NCAA
has kicked the ball down the road, as it were. They have
decided to leave leadership of the governing sports
organizations to their own rules, developing whether or not
individuals need, for example, testosterone suppression or
whether or not sports can be separated by biological sex.
Unfortunately, the NCAA has a significant influence. Their
membership, their ranking system is a sword of Damocles, where
the other athletic organizations, the managing bodies, and the
institutions that want to maintain their ranking--whether that
is D1, D2, or D3.
And so, to fail to make a unified policy maintaining sex-
separated spaces, as the NCAA has recognized for years, it is
ultimately made it harder for college administrators, who are
now faced with the Hobson's choice of, do we forego our
ranking, do we forego the revenue that comes with it, or do we
essentially tow what is coming from the Federal Government's
party line, that sex equals gender identity?
Mr. Sessions. So, you believe they are being led in this
case by the Federal Government?
Ms. Parshall Perry. I think it is setting the tone for the
entire Nation.
Mr. Sessions. Ms. Russell?
Ms. Russell. I would agree with Ms. Parshall Perry. The
NCAA has passed the buck.
I went on their website and looked at every single sport to
see what each sport's policy was. Many of them were the 10-
nanomoles-of-testosterone level. The ones that had the
strictest rules against biological males were triathlon and
water polo. So, if you want your daughters to have the best
chance to play, put them in triathlons and water polo.
Otherwise, good luck.
Mr. Sessions. Well, it seems to me that the NCAA has failed
in its, what I believe is overburdensome governance, that they
have failed in this.
Ms. Gaines, you and I spoke last August in Colorado, and
you were still, very appropriately, really shocked and
surprised that this even happened without your notice, without
your consent, without the coaches being aware. And you
considered it to be an assault--I am going to use those terms--
that you were faced with a male in a locker room. And it is
true that I think that there should have been some
understanding that they were going to take advantage of you and
the things that were of norm.
Have you clarified your--or would you clarify your ideas
now about how you felt with this?
Ms. Gaines. Just as you said. I do believe it was an
assault. And to sum it up in words here, of course, undressing
next to a male who is also undressed, of course it is awkward,
it is embarrassing, it is uncomfortable, but I believe the best
words to describe this--of course, it is utter violation. It is
betrayal by the people who were in place to protect us--at
least supposed to protect us. And I believe the best word is
``traumatic.''
And not even necessarily traumatic because of what we were
forced to see or, again, how we were forcibly exploited. It was
traumatic to me and my teammates to know just how easy it was
for those people in power who created these policies to totally
dismiss our rights to privacy without even a second thought,
without even, bare minimum, forewarning us.
Mr. Sessions. I want to thank each of you for being here
today.
Madam Chairman, thank you very much. I yield back my time.
Mrs. McClain. The Chair now recognizes the Chairman of
Judiciary, Mr. Jordan.
Mr. Jordan. Thank you, Madam Chair.
I want to thank all our witnesses for being here as well.
It seems to me there are, sort of, two problems here. There
is the fundamental problem, which is, you know, letting men
compete against women in sports is just crazy. I love what
Governor Huckabee Sanders said in the response to the State of
the Union. She said, ``The divide in America today is normal
versus crazy.'' And this is one of those obvious divides. It is
crazy to think it is OK to let guys compete against girls in
sports. That is just a given. The whole country knows that.
Anyone with common sense understands that.
But I am also more concerned--or maybe not more concerned--
just as concerned with what happens if you speak out against
it, which is exactly what happened to Ms. Russell.
Because, Ms. Russell, my understanding is, you had a--you
coached, what--first, you were a Division 1 athlete; is that
right?
Ms. Russell. Yes, that is correct.
Mr. Jordan. Division 1 lacrosse player. And then you
coached for, I think, 27, if I read your thing--27, 28 years
you coached?
Ms. Russell. Yes.
Mr. Jordan. So, you are not just some rookie coming in off
the street. You have coached a long time. You have had all
kinds of success, right? You have won awards. I think you run
the national program at some other--not in the United States
but somewhere, I read in your thing. Where do you run the
national program?
Ms. Russell. The U.S. Virgin Islands.
Mr. Jordan. So, you are an accomplished coach. But because
you said what was normal, you got fired. Is that right?
Ms. Russell. Because I said what was normal, it was not
liked.
Mr. Jordan. Yes. And they----
Ms. Russell. And I was canceled.
Mr. Jordan. Well, I should not say ``fired.'' Yes, you were
canceled, because you were not allowed to coach anymore.
Ms. Russell. Correct.
Mr. Jordan. They moved you somewhere else--I read your
testimony last night. They moved you somewhere else in the
athletic department or in the university at Oberlin. Is that
right?
Ms. Russell. Correct.
Mr. Jordan. Yes.
And I always tell people, do not think they wo not come
after you. Because I do not think--you are not some, you know,
crazy, right-wing, conservative Republican, are you, Ms.
Russell? You are just a coach. In fact, you even used the
term--what did you say? You are the ``hippie love coach''?
Ms. Russell. That is correct.
Mr. Jordan. That is not exactly how you describe
Republicans--normally not how you describe Republicans.
So, this is your words. You have been nicknamed the
``hippie love coach.'' You worked with all your student
athletes, even some--I think you even said some who are
transgender.
Ms. Russell. Yes. I have coached three transgender
students.
And in my support, after I spoke out, I have had many gay
men, many lesbians, and a group of transgender athletes and
people who are not athletes let me know that they support this.
They support that women's sports should stay female-only.
Mr. Jordan. Yes. And they were willing to confide in you
because they trusted you. They knew you were a good coach. They
knew you were there to help the student athlete. They
understood that, and they were willing to come--but that was
not good enough.
This is the part that is so frightening. It is never good
enough for the left. It has always got to be every single thing
they want, or ``we are coming after you.'' Even if you are the
hippie love coach, they are coming after you. And that is what
they did to you. I mean, this is how the left, this is how the
cancel-culture mob operates. It is a total attack.
So, this is bigger than--as bad as it is, what Ms. Gaines
described, what she had to go through--and if I remember your
story right, Ms. Gaines, you won but you were not able to be
No. 1 because of this Lia Thomas individual. You actually won
the race. I mean, bad enough as that is, this attack on the
First Amendment and your right to speak out against that is
just as bad and just as scary. Because that is across the
board.
And I tell people all the time, you have five liberties
under the First Amendment: your right to practice your faith,
your right to assemble, your right to petition the government,
free press, free speech. The most important one, by far, is
your right to talk, because if you cannot talk, you cannot
practice your faith, you cannot share your faith, you cannot
petition your government.
And you spoke out against something that anyone with any
common sense knows is ridiculous, and they came after you.
That is why this panel--and, Chairman, thank you for doing
this--this panel and this subject is so darn important, because
it is fundamental to who we are as a country. You cannot have a
country if you are only allowed to say what the left says is
OK.
And for people who stand up and defend that, they need to--
Ms. Goss Graves, I do not know, I was not able to be here for
all of this, but my guess is you are defending this idea that
guys can compete against girls. Maybe not. I did not hear it.
Do not think they wo not come after you at some point too.
I mean, here is how bad the left is. The left--the left--
Dianne Feinstein, liberal, iconic Senator for the left, was not
even good enough for the left. It was the Dianne Feinstein
Elementary School in San Francisco--they went back and found
something she said 30 years ago, and they said, we have got to
rename the school.
So, no one is safe. If they can go after Ms. Russell, 27
years coaching, for saying something that everybody knows is
true, they can come after anybody. And that is a dangerous
world to live in.
I did not mean to speak that long. I actually wanted to let
you guys talk. Ms. Gaines or Ms. Parshall Perry, if you want to
say something, go right ahead.
Ms. Parshall Perry. I think what we are seeing is sort of
this philosophical devolution on truth. We have gone from an
ontological perspective on truth--truth is truth, no matter how
you feel--to a consequentialist approach on truth--truth is
truth, so long as it does not hurt your feelings.
The law does not care about feelings. The law is the law,
so that we have a method of American constitutional governance.
And Title IX and the Constitution are very cut-and-dried. It
does not matter whose feelings are hurt.
And if there are indeed less than one percent of
individuals in the country who are transgender, as
Representative Garcia mentioned, why the urgency from the Biden
Department of Education to suddenly upend 50 years of civil-
rights protections for biological women who benefit----
Mr. Jordan. Great.
Ms. Perry [continuing]. From Title IX? That is throwing the
entire canon of civil-rights law on its head.
Mr. Jordan. Thank you all.
Madam Chair, I yield back. Thank you.
Mrs. McClain. Thank you.
The Chair now recognizes Ms. Greene for 5 minutes.
Ms. Greene. Thank you. And thank you, Chairwoman McClain,
for holding this hearing. It is extremely important.
I say that not only as a former athlete but also very proud
mother of a daughter who played her entire life, earned her D1
scholarship to her sport, which was softball. I am so proud of
her, proud of her records. And I am also very grateful. She
never had her opportunities, her records she set, stolen from
her from a biological man trying to replace her, beat her,
dominate her in her sport. So, I am very thankful.
I cannot believe we are here, though. I cannot believe we
are holding a hearing today. As a matter of fact, I cannot
believe many things.
Today, we have something called ``gender-affirming care''
in our country, which is really cutting off the body parts of
people in order to make them feel like they are another gender,
which is completely wrong. And this is something being pushed
on kids, cutting off their breasts, castrating them, which
really will lead to lifelong debilitating conditions, physical
conditions, and mental illness--hopefully not suicide, but
unfortunately that is the case.
Reproductive healthcare has been mentioned here, even the
term ``reproductive justice,'' which is really capital
punishment for innocent babies. There is nothing reproductive
about abortion. It is murder.
But one thing I would like to talk about right now is a
Gallup poll that was done in May 2023. Sixty-nine percent say
transgender athletes should play on teams that match their
birth gender or biological sex.
But guess what? That has actually gone up, because the left
is losing the battle. Because in 2020, May 2020, the exact same
Gallup poll was done, and it was only 62 percent that agreed
that transgender athletes should play on teams that match their
birth gender or biological sex.
So, watching biological men dominating real women in sports
is moving America's opinion to defend biological women and
Title XI. This is a losing issue for Democrats because America
fully agrees we have to protect women's sports.
Ms. Goss Graves, in 2013 the National Women's Law Center
tweeted, ``What have sports meant to you or a girl you know?
Tweet it with the hashtag''--and then you put the hashtag.
You responded, ``National Girls and Women in Sports Day. I
am grateful to tennis. It is my late-night outlet that I still
play 20 years after high school.''
Do you still play tennis, Ms. Goss Graves?
Ms. Goss Graves. Not well anymore. My knees struggle.
Ms. Greene. But it is a great sport, and it is always fun.
Ms. Goss Graves. Yes. I have enjoyed playing it.
Ms. Greene. And you mentioned that you are a fan of Serena
Williams. Is that right?
Ms. Goss Graves. I am. I am a Williams sisters fan. I am a
tennis fan. I am actually a fan of most sports. I grew up
playing sports and in a family that understood that there is so
much value in playing sports, whether you are the best or not
the best.
Ms. Greene. I agree with you. And I am a fan of Serena
Williams too. I think she is strong, I think she is powerful,
and I think she is beautiful.
In 2013, Serena Williams stated, ``If I were to play Andy
Murray, I would lose 6-0, 6-0, in 5 to 6 minutes, maybe 10
minutes. No, it is true. It is a completely different sport.
The men are a lot faster, and they serve harder, they hit
harder. It is just a different game.''
So, it sounds like she does not think she could beat men
either.
But let us talk about some of your comments. You said that
this is attacking and dehumanizing on trans.
Ms. Goss Graves, how do you think Ms. Gaines felt? Do you
think she felt dehumanized, being forced to undress in front of
men in her sports, or attacked?
Ms. Goss Graves. Here is what I think about----
Ms. Greene. That is a ``yes'' or ``no'' question.
Ms. Goss Graves. But, if I could----
Ms. Greene. Being forced to undress in front of a man,
isn't that dehumanizing or attacking?
Ms. Goss Graves. If I could answer this question, Madam
Chairman, because I actually think this is really, really
important.
The issue of privacy in locker rooms and in bathrooms,
there is a wide range of ways and rules to----
Ms. Greene. So, you feel like Ms. Gaines should have had
privacy?
Ms. Goss Graves. [continuing] Address that. You could put
up a curtain. You could put up a door. You could have
rotations. There are so many----
Ms. Greene. I reclaim my time, Ms. Goss Graves.
Ms. Goss Graves. [continuing] Ways to address that. And----
Ms. Greene. Ms. Gaines, did you feel attacked and
dehumanized?
Ms. Goss Graves. [continuing] What I have----
Ms. Greene. Ms. Gaines, did you feel attacked and
dehumanized?
Ms. Gaines. I certainly did. And in swimming locker rooms,
there are no curtains, there are no stalls, there are no
doors----
Ms. Goss Graves. But there could be. There could be
curtains----
Ms. Greene. I reclaim my time. It is Ms. Gaines' right now.
Ms. Gaines. That would be restructuring how I have competed
my entire 18 years of competing for what we have described in
this hearing today as such a small percentage of the
population.
We would restructure and uproot what we are used to and
what works and allows us to be--I think we can all agree, a
locker room, in general, is not a comfortable place, even, of
course, undressing in front of all women. But growing up a
swimmer in that environment, again, for 18 years of my life,
you become comfortable being vulnerable in that environment.
And I had, and my teammates and my competitors, we had our
vulnerability stripped from us by the leaders of the NCAA and,
again, those who implemented this policy.
Ms. Greene. Thank you, Ms. Gaines.
I yield.
Mrs. McClain. Thank you.
The Chair now recognizes Mr. Burchett for 5 minutes.
Mr. Burchett. Thank you, Chairlady. And thank you for
bringing this important matter to our attention.
Ms. Gaines, in your experience, do the biological men
competing in women's sports start competing before or after
taking hormones?
Ms. Gaines. I guess it depends, but I have certainly seen
both ways.
Mr. Burchett. Both? OK.
What guidelines does the National Collegiate Athletic
Association, NCAA, have regarding male-to-female student
athletes being treated with testosterone suppression?
Ms. Gaines. Well, from 2010 to 2022, they had a blanket
policy in place for all sports that said just 12 months of
hormone replacement therapy and you compete with the team that
aligns with your gender identity.
But now the NCAA--and I think this is incredibly telling--
they are in a phase-out approach, meaning they want nothing to
do with the topic, which I think is--again, if they
wholehearted stood by the fact that they believed males could
be women and become the same as women, they would stand by
their policy, but they are not.
They want to leave the responsibility and accountability up
to each specific sport governing body. I believe they are in
phase three or so of this approach, and it should be done by
2024 or 2025.
Mr. Burchett. Wouldn't men competing in women's sports at
the collegiate level have already gone through puberty?
Ms. Gaines. Again, I do not know the exact statistic, but
every single male that I have seen competing at the collegiate
level in the women's category has gone through male puberty.
Mr. Burchett. Right.
If a male takes a year of testosterone suppressants, does
his bone structure and muscle mass change enough for him to be
similar to biological women?
Ms. Gaines. No, nor does his height, nor does his lung
capacity, nor----
Mr. Burchett. All right.
Ms. Gaines [continuing]. Does his heart size, his wingspan,
foot size. The list goes on.
Mr. Burchett. And doesn't testosterone have permanent
effects through early life exposure?
Ms. Gaines. Of course.
Mr. Burchett. OK.
Ms. Gaines, another question. Once a man has started
competing on a women's teams, do they ever switch back to
compete on male teams?
Ms. Gaines. Not that I have seen.
Actually, I will say, there was a half-marathon runner--or,
a marathon runner who just won in the open category, the non-
binary division, at the Boston Marathon. Again, a male
identifying as a woman, he has competed just this year alone in
the men's, women's, and open category.
Mr. Burchett. OK.
Ms. Goss Graves, in 2022, you tweeted, ``Maybe anti-trans
laws are not actually about protecting women's sports.'' Now,
that is not true. These laws are not only are to protect
women's sports but women too.
Last year, a biological male playing on a women's
volleyball team spiked a high-speed ball into a girl's face,
causing a concussion. And I believe I have the video, if we can
show that.
[Video shown.]
Mr. Burchett. You see he just rifled it right into her
head.
And that is not only example. Recently, during a field
hockey game in Massachusetts, a biological male hit a female
player in the face, reportedly knocking her teeth out. In
another instance, three female rugby players were injured by a
biological male player.
These are not just things that just--these are not just
rare occurrences. You can find them all over the place, even in
Tennessee, if you would look close enough.
Ms. Goss Graves, do you have any concerns at all about
biological males competing in women's sports injuring females?
Ms. Goss Graves. I have deep concerns around injuries,
generally, in sports. And I think the answer for this body, if
they are interested, are the sorts of resources that reduce
injuries----
Mr. Burchett. No, but I mean, are they not higher among
biological men?
[Crosstalk.]
Ms. Goss Graves. [continuing] Facilities, equipment.
I mean, the thing is--I know this is hard to hear--that
people who play sports, that injury is a part of it. And it is
unfortunate. And yet people still play, because they love it,
they love playing.
Mr. Burchett. Yes, ma'am, but when you----
Ms. Goss Graves. I did, too, as a kid.
Mr. Burchett [continuing]. Take away their ability----
Ms. Goss Graves. I understand that.
Mr. Burchett [continuing]. To compete against some--ma'am,
I am talking, please. I apologize. But when you take away their
ability to compete by putting someone who is far superior
biologically--that is the way God made them; that may come as
some disruptive talk to some folks up here, but that is just
the way it is--it is not fair.
So that was basically a ``yes'' to my question. And I want
to----
Ms. Goss Graves. No, I do not think it was. I think what I
was trying to say, that I am concerned about injuries in
sports, and I think there are things to do to reduce injuries
in sports, and that additional resources to ensure things like
coaching, to ensure things like equipment are more equal----
Mr. Burchett. OK. Let me stop you.
Ms. Goss Graves. [continuing] Would actually reduce
injuries that girls across this country face because they play
sports.
Mr. Burchett. Yes, ma'am, but they do not play contact
sports against men.
Now, Ms. Gaines, would you care to comment on that?
Ms. Gaines. Yes, I absolutely agree. Allowing men into
women's sports of course increases the severity and the greater
likelihood of women getting injured. And to ignore that is
entirely disingenuous.
And let me just add one more point about the NCAA
championships, in particular, that I find to be incredibly
interesting, that we have not talked about in this Committee.
In that same meet where we had Thomas, who, of course, is a
male identifying as a woman, we had another trans athlete, who
was a female identifying as a man. We were told we had to refer
to this person using he/him pronouns.
And so, I guess I wish there were more Democratic Members
on the Committee, because I would love to ask, just plain and
simple, the question of, do we believe that that person that we
were forced to compete against, from Yale, Izzi Henig, who now
identifies as Iszac Henig, should compete against the men? And
why did this person compete with the women? And I can answer
that question. It is because Izzi, now Iszac, would never and
will never be able to compete at the same level against the
males.
So not only were we, I guess, facing this discrimination
against male athletes, we also had a female identifying as a
man competing with the women, which I have no problem with if
there was no testosterone being taken.
Mr. Burchett. Thank you all, and thank you ladies.
There are Democrats on this Committee. They just chose not
to be here because this is obviously such an obvious answer to
these questions.
Thank you, Chairlady.
Mrs. McClain. Thank you.
The Chair now recognizes Mr. LaMalfa for 5 minutes.
Mr. LaMalfa. Thank you, Madam Chair. I appreciate you
allowing me to sit in on Committee here today.
It is a lot of contentious discussion here today. We have
seen a lot of name-calling, people referring to people with
different ideas or disagreements as some type of--phobes,
transphobes or homophobes or whatever. And that is not really a
place for you to have ideas or discussion about differences on
important issues.
So, I have even seen, in my home state of California, where
parents would want to talk with their children about if they
are feeling feelings of wanting to associate with another
gender, for example, that our California legislature has shut
down the ability for kids to have counseling.
So, if there is--phobes on this--I saw, at the beginning of
the hearing, Ms. Gaines was moved by a Democrat Member to have
her words taken down because she cared to disagree with the
name-calling that was being called her and, instead, put one
back on and said, well, maybe you are a misogynist for not
agreeing, you know.
So, it is pretty discouraging that you cannot have a
rational conversation here, so--or even counseling for kids in
California. It looks a lot like canceling to me.
So, I wanted to--a question for Ms. Goss Graves there.
Now, you are the president of what is known as the National
Women's Law Center, right?
Ms. Goss Graves. That is correct.
Mr. LaMalfa. OK.
So, we saw this report where a girl on a school trip was
forced to share a bed in a motel room, I guess for expediency.
I think she was about seventh grade, and a boy who was probably
about seventh grade.
Does that seem like a good idea at that age? And what would
the parents think about it, let alone what would the girl think
about that? Is that a policy that your organization would
support?
Ms. Goss Graves. I am sorry, I do not--I am struggling to
understand the example that you are talking about. There was a
school trip----
Mr. LaMalfa. It has been widely reported that----
Ms. Goss Graves. [continuing] Where were boys and girls
sharing a bed?
Mr. LaMalfa. Yes.
Ms. Goss Graves. I have never heard----
Mr. LaMalfa. A school trip.
Ms. Goss Graves. [continuing] Of this happening.
Mr. LaMalfa. Well, as a policy, as a generic policy, what
would you think of that?
Ms. Goss Graves. I would advise that schools not require
their students to share beds.
Mr. LaMalfa. Well----
Ms. Goss Graves. I mean, I do not----
Mr. LaMalfa. Maybe for expediency for a trip, girls with
girls, boys with boys, whatever, if that is what they came up
with.
In this case here, because they wanted to protect this
identity, they forced this girl to be in that situation,
sharing with a boy. Does that seem like a good idea to you?
Ms. Goss Graves. So, are you trying to call a transgender
girl a boy? I am just trying to understand the example that you
are giving me.
But, in any event----
Mr. LaMalfa. You know what I am talking about, a----
Ms. Goss Graves. So, here is what I would say. I would
advise schools to not have students share beds. I would advise
schools to be really clear, if they have----
Mr. LaMalfa. In this case, they required them, because that
is what they did, and they required this girl to share with a
boy, so----
Ms. Goss Graves. Well, I would advise against it. So----
Mr. LaMalfa. OK.
Ms. Goss Graves. [continuing] I would say that that----
Mr. LaMalfa. All right.
Ms. Goss Graves. [continuing] Is not a good idea. Schools
have----
Mr. LaMalfa. All right. All right. Let us move----
Ms. Goss Graves. [continuing] A longstanding obligation to
address----
Mr. LaMalfa. Let us move to a different question.
Ms. Goss Graves. [continuing] Harassment and create----
Mr. LaMalfa. Let us move to a different question. So----
Ms. Goss Graves. [continuing] Conditions where students can
thrive.
Mr. LaMalfa [continuing]. In general, it does not sound
like that is for girl's and women's safety.
I have not heard your organization yet speak out against
the horrific--or condemn publicly, what is going on with Hamas
and the Jewish women that were dismembered by rape, by torture,
the dehumanizing of Jewish women. Would you like to, here,
clarify for us how your organization would feel about that?
Ms. Goss Graves. So, rape in conflict and the information
that has come out about what happened to women in Israel is
horrific and devastating and godawful.
Mr. LaMalfa. Well, many lead organizations have not even
expressed anything. It seems to be pro-Hamas. Is your
organization willing to go on the record to say, we are against
what Hamas did to women, we are against----
Ms. Goss Graves. I mean----
Mr. LaMalfa. [continuing] We are against Hamas?
Ms. Goss Graves. So, I should just be really clear, I do
not support groups, but I also do not do global work. I work--
--
Mr. LaMalfa. OK. All right.
Ms. Goss Graves. [continuing] In the United States----
Mr. LaMalfa. All right.
Ms. Goss Graves. [continuing] On gender----
Mr. LaMalfa. All right.
Ms. Goss Graves. [continuing] Justice issues.
Mr. LaMalfa. I will reclaim my time. Thank you.
Ms. Goss Graves. But I am an expert----
Mr. LaMalfa. Reclaiming my time.
Ms. Goss Graves. [continuing] On sexual violence----
Mr. LaMalfa. OK.
Ms. Goss Graves. [continuing] And rape is horrific in any
setting. And the----
Mr. LaMalfa. Sure.
Ms. Goss Graves. [continuing] Fact that in the context of
war and conflict----
Mr. LaMalfa. Reclaiming my time, please.
Ms. Gaines, I would like to switch a question to you.
Ms. Goss Graves. This is so important, and I do not want to
leave any misunderstanding.
Mr. LaMalfa. You did not answer the question directly, and
that is----
Mrs. McClain. Well, he has reclaimed his time.
Ms. Goss Graves. OK.
Mr. LaMalfa. So, Ms. Gaines, again, you have been
courageous in your battle, with the name-calling and the stuff
that happened in San Francisco.
Let me talk about, real quick, when you have transgender
athletes, as they are called, participating in a sport, and let
us say in track, for example, the top two are former males,
they claim the top two spots, they qualify for, you know,
scholarships in college, the first two places at the national
meets, what does that feel like for the girls?
Do they, A, want to start boycotting games where there is
males playing? Or do they just want to give up altogether? What
is that going to do for women's sports if more and more of this
happens?
Ms. Gaines. It is certainly a mix. There are some women who
would love to boycott, but we have been told, you know, you
signed a scholarship. So, there is fear of retaliation from
your school.
There are some women who were so discouraged they quit.
Speaking of, again, the case that we saw with Lia Thomas--I
know I have referenced it a lot, but it is, of course, my lived
experience--the University of Princeton had, I believe, 13 of
their swimmers quit the sport entirely, to stop playing, being
in the Ivy League, having to deal with this time and time and
time again. And after talking with those girls, they explicitly
stated they quit because they were subjected to allowing men
into their sports and locker rooms.
Mr. LaMalfa. So, if the girls do not want to share a bed,
they do not want to share a locker room, if they feel like they
are being violated, and they finally sit out the sport, is that
really good for, for example, executives? Ninety-four percent--
--
Mrs. McClain. The----
Mr. LaMalfa [continuing]. Of executives have been in
women's sports. It is probably not good for them, huh?
Ms. Gaines. No.
Mr. LaMalfa. Thank you.
Mrs. McClain. The gentleman's time has expired.
Mr. LaMalfa. Thank you, Madam Chair. I appreciate it.
Mrs. McClain. Thank you. Thank you.
In closing, I want to thank all of you very much for taking
time out of your day to be here today. I want to thank you for
your testimony. I know it is heartfelt, and I appreciate it. It
means a lot to me, as a mother, as an athlete, as a coach, as a
woman. So, thank you for being here.
I now want to close, and I want to yield to the Ranking
Member, Ms. Lee, for her closing remarks.
Ms. Lee?
Ms. Lee. Thank you, Madam Chair.
First, I just want to seek unanimous consent to enter into
the record this statement by the National Center for
Transgender Equity--excuse me, Equality.
Mrs. McClain. So, ordered.
Ms. Lee. Thank you.
A recurring theme from my Republican colleagues and their
witnesses is that trans girls are more likely to injure other
players during sports.
I would like to read a statement by a trans female high-
school rugby player. And I quote: ``At 5-foot-7 and
approximately 140 pounds, I routinely go up against other
women, from 5-foot-3, 100-pound players who are quick and
agile, to 6-feet-tall, 250-pound women who are nearly double my
size.''
She continued, and I quote: ``And during a scrimmage a few
weeks later, I had my arm broken in a collision with a
cisgender player. While unfortunately I cannot help but
chuckle, because my experience is the opposite of narratives
playing on unfounded fears, that cisgender women face a higher
risk of injury from transgender women on the field. My
colleagues are grasping at straws for arguments that support
their transphobic and dangerous stereotypical views of women's
bodies.''
I think this hearing has shown how vital immediate action
is to protect our transgender young people. On April 6, 2023,
the Department of Education announced a proposed revision to
Title IX regulations on students' eligibility for athletic
teams. The Administration's proposed revision to Title IX would
prevent institutions that receive Federal funding from applying
blanket sex-related criteria that would limit or deny a
student's ability to participate on a male or female team
consistent with their gender identity. This proposed revision
must be finalized.
We have seen how, without these protections, Title IX can
be weaponized against transgender students. During her time
running the Department of Education, Secretary DeVos repeatedly
leveraged Title IX's prohibition of sex discrimination to roll
back protections for transgender student athletes.
For example, in May 2020, the Department of Education
prevented a Connecticut high school from maintaining its policy
allowing transgender students to participate in athletics on a
team corresponding to their gender identity.
In another case from 2020, Secretary DeVos's department
successfully forced Franklin Pierce University to rescind its
transgender participation and inclusion policy, despite the
policy's compliance with the NCAA guidance for transgender
athletes.
We need our Department of Education to be able to stand up
and defend our transgender students, because they, like all
willing young people, deserve to participate in sports.
Transgender youth participate in sports for the same reasons as
everyone else--to build and nurture friendships, increase self-
esteem, and develop crucial skills like teamwork and
discipline.
Equal access to school programs goes hand-in-hand with
academic excellence. The Travel Project found that transgender
and non-binary athletes had significantly higher grades than
their transgender and non-binary peers who do not participate
in sports.
You do not have to be an expert on what it means to be
transgender to understand that singling out a small group of
youth who simply want to participate with their peers is not
how we, as elected officials, should be spending our time.
These youth already face stigma and bullying, and these attacks
only exacerbate those challenges.
Youth sports should be open to all, and policing the bodies
or appearances of our youth hurts everyone. The anti-trans
sports bills being signed into law across the country seek to
create a problem that just does not exist, all for the sake of
perpetuating hate against vulnerable groups.
This is not about preserving competition in sports. It is a
way to mobilize would-be voters by turning trans rights into a
political football.
I encourage the Department of Education to prioritize
finalizing this proposed revision to protect our transgender
youths. And I encourage my Republican colleagues to stop
picking on kids.
I yield back.
Mrs. McClain. Thank you, Ms. Lee.
Whatever happened to ``I am woman, hear me roar''? What--
what--have we lost our minds?
I sat here and listened to every--every label imaginable. I
am here to protect women, girls. My God, why do I have to
apologize for that? We spent decades trying to protect women,
and you know what? We won. We won. So, I will not apologize now
or ever for trying to protect my daughters and women in sports.
And that is what this hearing was about, protecting women.
So, you know what? I am a woman, and let me tell you, hear
me roar, because I will not stop protecting women. You want to
know why? Because we have rights too. Women have rights too.
And our daughters have rights too. Let me be explicitly clear
on that. And I will never stop protecting our daughters. I will
never stop protecting women. That is my job as a mother, and it
is the right thing to do.
This hearing today has been extremely informative and
heartbreaking. Frankly, I am mystified by the Biden
Administration's shameless failure to protect women's rights.
We talk about protecting women's rights like that is such a bad
thing, that that is so evil, to protect women's rights. Have we
lost our mind?
The Administration's proposed Title IX rule will rewind
decades of progress in women's rights. The Biden Administration
is weakening Title IX by allowing all males who identify as
women to participate in women's sports. OK. ``Identify as
women.'' How about just be a woman? Why can't I protect my
women? Why can't I protect my daughters?
Title IX was implemented by Congress to give women equal
educational opportunities, including within federally funded
school athletic programs. No, we are not there. Do we have a
lot of work to do? You are doggone right we do. But if this
language gets in by the Biden Administration, it will
definitely not help women, I can assure you that. It will not
help us on the progress route.
The Biden Administration's rule would eliminate women's
sports as we know it. That is a fact. And you know how it
starts? It starts little by little by little by little. All you
have got to do is look at--it is called the salami mentality.
Little by little by little. It starts by just a little, and
then, before you know it, look at our tax system, right?
As we have discussed today, the Biden Administration has no
legal grounds to support this rule. Congress is the Nation's
lawmaking body, not unelected bureaucrats in the Biden
Administration.
In this world--in a world where biological males compete in
women's sports, women lose access to roster spots. It is true.
It is not about your feelings. It is the fact. Women lose
championships, records, and scholarships. That is just a fact.
I am sorry if it does not fit your narrative, but it is the
fact.
Women face serious injuries from contact sports with
physically biological--or larger biological males. Again, do
not let the facts gets in the way of a good story.
Women face emotional trauma of exposure to biological males
in spaces that should be safe and private for women, like the
locker room.
And why should women have to change all the time? It would
have been nice if we would have gotten a little heads-up,
Riley, huh, about, hey, we have got a biological male
competing. It would have been nice to have a heads-up. Then
maybe we could have put the curtain up. But we do not even
bother to tell anybody.
What about defending our women? What about defending my
daughters? Don't I have a right? You know what? I say, yes, I
do.
The proposed Department of Education rules will do nothing
to preserve the safety or fairness of women's sports. This is
about protecting girls and women. This is about protecting our
daughters, our sisters, our nieces, and our granddaughters. And
you know what? Lisa McClain is here to fight for them.
That is why I have drafted a bill, Save Women's Sports Act,
to protect sports and fair competition across the Nation.
Remember Title IX that we fought so hard for? My bill prohibits
any school or university that receives Federal funding from
allowing biological males from participating in women's sports.
So, you can do it; we are just not funding it. If schools
violate the provision of this bill, they lose access to all
Federal funding. You can be who you want to be, but the
American people do not have to fund it, especially since about
70 percent of them actually agree with me.
Simply put, this bill will stop the pattern of unremarkable
male athletes that switch to women's sports and suddenly come
in first place, men like those we have heard stories about--men
like the ones that we have heard stories about today.
I ask my colleagues to join me in protecting women's sports
by signing this bill.
In closing, again, I want to thank our panelists once again
for your brave and important testimony today. I am sure you are
going to get canceled. I am sure I am going to get canceled.
But you know what that tells me? My ladder's on the right wall
and I am doing the right thing.
Thank you for sharing your stories. I do appreciate it.
And, with that, without objection, all Members have 5
legislative days within which to submit materials and
additional written questions for the witnesses, which will be
forwarded to the witnesses.
Mrs. McClain. If there is no further business, without
objection, the Subcommittee stands adjourned.
[Whereupon, at 6:05 p.m., the Subcommittee was adjourned.]
[all]