[House Hearing, 118 Congress]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]



 


                                 ______


 
                    THE ROLE OF FEDERAL RESEARCH IN
                ESTABLISHING A ROBUST U.S. SUPPLY CHAIN
                   OF CRITICAL MINERALS AND MATERIALS

=======================================================================

                                     
                                     
                                     

                                HEARING

                               BEFORE THE

                      COMMITTEE ON SCIENCE, SPACE,
                             AND TECHNOLOGY

                                 OF THE

                        HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

                    ONE HUNDRED EIGHTEENTH CONGRESS

                             FIRST SESSION

                               __________

                           NOVEMBER 30, 2023

                               __________

                           Serial No. 118-29

                               __________

 Printed for the use of the Committee on Science, Space, and Technology

                                     
                                     
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             U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE 
 54-226 PDF         WASHINGTON : 2025 

      
       
       
       
       

              COMMITTEE ON SCIENCE, SPACE, AND TECHNOLOGY

                  HON. FRANK LUCAS, Oklahoma, Chairman
BILL POSEY, Florida                  ZOE LOFGREN, California, Ranking 
RANDY WEBER, Texas                       Member
BRIAN BABIN, Texas                   SUZANNE BONAMICI, Oregon
JIM BAIRD, Indiana                   HALEY STEVENS, Michigan
DANIEL WEBSTER, Florida              JAMAAL BOWMAN, New York
MIKE GARCIA, California              DEBORAH ROSS, North Carolina
STEPHANIE BICE, Oklahoma             ERIC SORENSEN, Illinois
JAY OBERNOLTE, California            ANDREA SALINAS, Oregon
CHUCK FLEISCHMANN, Tennessee         VALERIE FOUSHEE, North Carolina
DARRELL ISSA, California             KEVIN MULLIN, California
RICK CRAWFORD, Arkansas              JEFF JACKSON, North Carolina
CLAUDIA TENNEY, New York             EMILIA SYKES, Ohio
RYAN ZINKE, Montana                  MAXWELL FROST, Florida
SCOTT FRANKLIN, Florida              YADIRA CARAVEO, Colorado
DALE STRONG, Alabama                 SUMMER LEE, Pennsylvania
MAX MILLER, Ohio                     JENNIFER McCLELLAN, Virginia
RICH McCORMICK, Georgia              TED LIEU, California
MIKE COLLINS, Georgia                SEAN CASTEN, Illinois,
BRANDON WILLIAMS, New York             Vice Ranking Member
TOM KEAN, New Jersey                 PAUL TONKO, New York
VACANCY
                         C  O  N  T  E  N  T  S

                           November 30, 2023

                                                                   Page

Hearing Charter..................................................     2

                           Opening Statements

Statement by Representative Frank Lucas, Chairman, Committee on 
  Science, Space, and Technology, U.S. House of Representatives..     7
    Written Statement............................................     8

Statement by Representative Zoe Lofgren, Ranking Member, 
  Committee on Science, Space, and Technology, U.S. House of 
  Representatives................................................     9
    Written Statement............................................    10

                               Witnesses:

Mr. Ryan Peay, Deputy Assistant Secretary for the Office of 
  Resource Sustainability, Office of Fossil Energy and Carbon 
  Management, U.S. Department of Energy
    Oral Statement...............................................    12
    Written Statement............................................    14

Dr. Jef Caers, Professor of Earth & Planetary Science and 
  Director of Stanford Mineral-X, Stanford University
    Oral Statement...............................................    24
    Written Statement............................................    26

Mr. Drew Horn, Chief Executive Officer, GreenMet
    Oral Statement...............................................    39
    Written Statement............................................    41
        ``Owner of US heavy rare earth mine licenses separation 
          technology,'' Oak Ridge National Laboratory............    45

Dr. Dustin Mulvaney, Professor of Environmental Studies, San Jose 
  State University
    Oral Statement...............................................    56
    Written Statement............................................    58

Mr. Thomas E. Baroody, President & Chief Executive Officer, K-
  Technologies, Inc.
    Oral Statement...............................................    64
    Written Statement............................................    66

Discussion.......................................................    73

             Appendix I: Answers to Post-Hearing Questions

Mr. Ryan Peay, Deputy Assistant Secretary for the Office of 
  Resource Sustainability, Office of Fossil Energy and Carbon 
  Management, U.S. Department of Energy..........................   116

Dr. Jef Caers, Professor of Earth & Planetary Science and 
  Director of Stanford Mineral-X, Stanford University............   131

Mr. Drew Horn, Chief Executive Officer, GreenMet.................   132

Dr. Dustin Mulvaney, Professor of Environmental Studies, San Jose 
  State University...............................................   136

Mr. Thomas E. Baroody, President & Chief Executive Officer, K-
  Technologies, Inc..............................................   139

            Appendix II: Additional Material for the Record

Letter submitted by Representative Haley Stevens, Committee on 
  Science, Space, and Technology, U.S. House of Representatives
    Sarah Venuto, President, the American Critical Minerals 
      Association................................................   146

Article submitted by Representative Suzanne Bonamici, Committee 
  on Science, Space, and Technology, U.S. House of 
  Representatives
    ``Considering the Deep Sea as a Source of Minerals and Rare 
      Elements,'' Ocean Conservancy..............................   148


                    THE ROLE OF FEDERAL RESEARCH IN



                ESTABLISHING A ROBUST U.S. SUPPLY CHAIN



                   OF CRITICAL MINERALS AND MATERIALS

                              ----------                              


                      THURSDAY, NOVEMBER 30, 2023

                          House of Representatives,
               Committee on Science, Space, and Technology,
                                                   Washington, D.C.

    The Committee met, pursuant to notice, at 10:08 a.m., in 
room 2318 of the Rayburn House Office Building, Hon. Frank 
Lucas [Chairman of the Committee] presiding.


    Chairman Lucas. The Committee will come to order. Without 
objection, the Chair is authorized to declare recess of the 
Committee at any time.
    Welcome to today's hearing entitled ``The Role of Federal 
Research in Establishing a Robust U.S. Supply Chain of Critical 
Minerals and Materials.'' And I recognize myself for an opening 
statement.
    Good morning. Today, the Science Committee will examine the 
role that the Federal research agencies can play in developing 
a robust domestic supply chain of critical minerals and 
materials. Critical minerals like lithium, graphite, cobalt are 
essential to our Nation's, our country's energy independence, 
national security, and economic growth. With applications in 
healthcare, defense systems, smartphones, and advanced energy 
technologies, these resources are essential to our modern way 
of life and our clean energy future.
    Despite substantial domestic reserves, an alarming majority 
of the critical minerals used in the United States are sourced 
abroad. In fact, the United States has a net import reliance of 
over 50 percent of 31 of the 50 mineral commodities designated 
as critical by the U.S. Department of Interior and relies 
completely on imports to supply a dozen of these commodities. 
This heavy dependence on foreign supply chains, including those 
of adversarial nations, puts the United States and its allies 
at risk.
    Today, China controls 60 percent of worldwide production 
and 85 percent of the processing capacity of critical minerals. 
As a result, the United States has a 50 percent net import 
reliance on China for about 26 mineral commodities. As more 
advanced technologies enter the marketplace, we can only expect 
the global demand for critical minerals to increase. It's never 
been more important to protect ourselves by developing 
sustainable supply chains for these critical resources both 
domestically and with like-minded allies. Ensuring a stable 
U.S. supply of critical minerals and materials starts with 
encouraging responsible production and the use here at home.
    Federal research agencies like the U.S. Department of 
Energy (DOE) and the National Science Foundation (NSF) have a 
central role in reducing U.S. dependence on foreign resources 
of critical minerals by supporting domestic mineral development 
and innovation. Just as DOE lead the way to the shale 
revolution through innovation and advanced technologies, the 
Department stewards important research in critical minerals and 
materials research and development (R&D). DOE prioritizes the 
development of new mineral alternatives through innovation in 
material sciences, the creation of a circular supply chain 
through recycling, and the identification of new mineral 
resources through advanced extraction approaches. These cross-
cutting activities are carried out through various offices 
within the Office of Fossil Energy and Carbon Management, the 
Office of Science, and the Office of Energy Efficiency and 
Renewable Energy, just to name a few.
    In 2013, the Department created the Critical Minerals 
Institute of Ames National Laboratory to accelerate solutions 
to the supply chains of critical minerals. This consortium of 
industry, academia, and National Labs allows for their 
individual expertise to come together to tackle the most 
difficult challenges facing this sector.
    Recently, the Department has also started a Mine of the 
Future program, looking into major technology gaps in the 
Federal Government's supply chain of these materials and how to 
address them. I look forward to hearing from our DOE witness on 
how this initiative is progressing.
    Similarly, the National Science Foundation funds basic 
research and STEM (science, technology, engineering, and 
mathematics) education initiatives to advance critical mineral 
mining technologies and strategies to better utilize existing 
domestic resources. However, the United States is facing a 
workforce gap that will hamper our goals of securing our 
domestic supply chains. It is imperative that we continue to 
support and nurture talent in every community across the 
country.
    The ongoing activities at NSF are an important part of the 
whole-of-government approach to securing the domestic supply 
chain of critical minerals and materials. The Committee has 
prioritized Federal critical minerals R&D in recent years by 
providing updated guidance to both DOE and NSF through the 
Energy Act of 2020 and the CHIPS and Science Act of 2022. I 
look forward to hearing from my colleagues on both sides of the 
aisle as we continue to review the Administration's 
implementation of these important laws.
    A robust domestic supply chain of critical minerals is 
important not only for U.S. national security and economic 
growth, but for global environmental stewardship and 
humanitarian efforts. Through innovation in advanced critical 
materials technologies, we can increase domestic production of 
critical minerals and materials, while minimizing our need to 
outsource this work to other countries that do not share our 
core values or standards.
    I'm looking forward to speaking with our panel of experts 
on how we in Congress can ensure that the United States regains 
its footing in this field, and I want to thank our witnesses 
for their testimony, and I look forward to a very productive 
discussion.
    [The prepared statement of Chairman Lucas follows:]

    Good morning. Today, the Science Committee will examine the 
role that Federal research agencies can play in developing a 
robust domestic supply chain of critical minerals and 
materials.
    Critical minerals like lithium, graphite, and cobalt are 
essential to our country's energy independence, national 
security, and economic growth. With applications in healthcare, 
defense systems, smartphones, and advanced energy technologies, 
these resources are essential to our modern way of life and our 
clean energy future.
    Despite substantial domestic reserves, an alarming majority 
of the critical minerals used in the U.S. are sourced abroad. 
In fact, the U.S. has a net import-reliance of over 50 percent 
for 31 of the 50 mineral commodities designated as critical by 
the U.S. Department of Interior and relies completely on 
imports to supply a dozen of these commodities.
    This heavy dependence on foreign supply chains, including 
those of adversarial nations, puts the United States and its 
allies at risk. Today, China controls over 60 percent of 
worldwide production and 85 percent of the processing capacity 
of critical minerals. As a result, the U.S. has a 50 percent 
net import reliance on China for about 26 mineral commodities.
    As more advanced technologies enter the marketplace, we can 
only expect the global demand for critical minerals to 
increase. It has never been more important to protect ourselves 
by developing sustainable supply chains for these crucial 
resources both domestically and with like-minded allies.
    Ensuring a stable U.S. supply of critical minerals and 
materials starts with encouraging responsible production and 
use here at home. Federal research agencies like the U.S. 
Department of Energy (DOE) and the National Science Foundation 
(NSF) have a central role to play in reducing U.S. dependence 
on foreign sources of critical minerals by supporting domestic 
mineral development and innovation.
    Just as DOE led the way to the shale gas revolution through 
innovation in advanced technologies, the Department stewards 
important research in critical minerals and materials research 
and development. DOE prioritizes the development of new mineral 
alternatives through innovation in material sciences, the 
creation of a circular supply chain through recycling, and the 
identification of new mineral resources through advanced 
extraction approaches.
    These cross-cutting activities are carried out through 
various offices including the Office of Fossil Energy and 
Carbon Management, the Office of Science, and the Office of 
Energy Efficiency and Renewable Energy, just to name a few.
    In 2013, the Department created the Critical Materials 
Institute at Ames National Laboratory to accelerate solutions 
to the supply chains of critical materials. This consortium of 
industry, academia, and the National Labs allows for all their 
individual expertise to come together and tackle the most 
difficult challenges facing the sector.
    Recently, the Department has also started a ``Mine of the 
Future'' program looking into the major technology gaps in the 
federal government's supply chain of these materials and how to 
address them. I look forward to hearing from our DOE witness on 
how that initiative is progressing.
    Similarly, the National Science Foundation funds basic 
research and STEM education initiatives to advance critical 
minerals mining strategies and technologies to better utilize 
existing domestic resources.
    However, the United States is facing a workforce gap that 
will hamper our goals of securing our domestic supply chains. 
It is imperative that we continue to support and nurture talent 
in every community across the country.
    The ongoing activities at NSF are an important part of the 
whole-of-government approach to securing the domestic supply 
chain of critical minerals and materials.
    The Committee has prioritized Federal critical minerals R&D 
in recent years by providing updated guidance for both DOE and 
NSF through the Energy Act of 2020 and the CHIPS and Science 
Act of 2022.
    I look forward to working with my colleagues on both sides 
of the aisle as we continue to review the Administration's 
implementation of these important laws.
    A robust domestic supply chain of critical minerals is 
important not only for U.S. national security and economic 
growth, but also for global environmental stewardship and 
humanitarian efforts.
    Through innovation in advanced critical minerals 
technologies, we can increase domestic production of critical 
minerals and materials while minimizing our need to outsource 
this work to other countries that do not share our core values 
and standards.
    I'm looking forward to speaking with our panel of experts 
about how we in Congress can ensure that the United States 
regains its footing in this field.
    I want to thank our witnesses for their testimony today, I 
look forward to a productive discussion.

    Chairman Lucas. I now recognize the Ranking Member, the 
gentlewoman from California, Ms. Lofgren, for an opening 
statement.
    Ms. Lofgren. Well, thank you, Mr. Chairman, and good 
morning to all of our witnesses. This is an important hearing, 
and I want to take a moment of personal privilege to, among all 
these great experts, note that Dr. Mulvaney is right from San 
Jose State University in my district. He's one of the Nation's 
foremost experts on energy technologies supply chains, has 
published extensively on those subjects. And I know that it's a 
hassle to get here from San Jose, so I certainly appreciate 
your being here, along with the other excellent witnesses.
    As we know, this Science, Space, and Technology Committee 
has played a leading role in addressing our needs for a 
sustainable supply of critical materials through contributions 
to the CHIPS and Science Act and, in particular, the Energy Act 
of 2020, which guided most of the funding for these activities 
provided in the Infrastructure Investment and Jobs Act.
    As a nation, we're moving quickly, as quickly as we 
possibly can, to reach our goal of net zero emissions to 
address the climate crisis. But to do that, we need to rapidly 
scale a broad suite of clean energy technologies that include, 
for example, the hydrogen electrolyzers supporting the regional 
hydrogen hub network, which I'm happy to say will include 
California, and the batteries used in many electric vehicles 
(EVs). However, several of these technologies are currently 
dependent on critical materials from nations that 
unfortunately, are not our friends.
    Thanks in no small part to our recent bipartisan 
legislative efforts, we started on the path to addressing the 
climate crisis and our clean energy future, but that future is 
threatened and our progress may well be halted if we do not 
have a sustainable supply of critical materials to build these 
technologies.
    To that end, I'm encouraged by the progress that the 
Department of Energy has made to identify the specific 
materials threatening our clean energy supply chains, and I'm 
particularly happy to see the Department's promotion of 
research into innovative solutions to improve manufacturing 
efficiency, recycling, and the use of more abundant 
alternatives that can save significantly reduce our need for 
these materials going forward. These efforts show that we can 
protect the environment and strengthen our economy at the same 
time, and there's no good reason for our Nation to make a false 
choice here.
    I also applaud recent announcements from the national labs 
that have been hard at work researching domestic sources of 
critical minerals. Just last week, an analysis conducted by 
Lawrence Berkeley National Lab just up the road from my 
district found that the California Salton Sea has a significant 
potential as a domestic source of lithium with enough of this 
critical material to support 375 million batteries for electric 
vehicles. That discovery may prove to be critical as we move 
forward to our efforts to wean ourselves from a fossil fuel 
world.
    The bottom line is that we have to continue to work toward 
securing a sustainable supply of the materials we'll need to 
tackle the climate crisis head on. But at the same time, all of 
the communities that we deserve, certainly--we serve certainly 
deserve to live in a safe and healthy environment, and I think 
this hearing is a good step toward striking that balance. We--
as we move forward to develop domestic supplies, we need to be 
mindful of the impact on communities and how those impacts can 
be reduced or eliminated.
    I look forward to today's conversation, and again, Mr. 
Chairman, I thank you and the witnesses for what I am sure will 
be an enlightening morning. And I yield back.
    [The prepared statement of Ms. Lofgren follows:]

    Good morning and thank you, Chairman Lucas, for holding 
this very important hearing. I thank the witnesses for being 
here today, including my very own district's Dr. Mulvaney. As 
you know, the Science, Space, and Technology Committee has 
played a leading role in addressing our needs for a sustainable 
supply of critical materials through contributions to the CHIPS 
and Science Act, and in particular through the Energy Act of 
2020--which guided much of the funding for these activities 
provided in the Infrastructure Investment and Jobs Act.
    As a nation, we are moving as quickly as possible to reach 
our goal of net-zero emissions to address the climate crisis. 
But to do that, we need to rapidly scale a broad suite of clean 
energy technologies that include, for example, the hydrogen 
electrolyzers supporting the regional hydrogen hub network, and 
the batteries used in many electric vehicles. However, several 
of these technologies are currently dependent on critical 
materials from nations that, unfortunately, are not always our 
friends.
    Thanks in no small part to our recent bipartisan 
legislative efforts, we've started on the path to addressing 
the climate crisis and enabling our clean energy future. But 
that future is threatened, and our progress may well be halted 
if we do not have a sustainable supply of critical materials to 
build these technologies. To that end, I am encouraged by the 
progress that the Department of Energy has made to identify the 
specific materials threatening our clean energy supply chains.
    And I'm particularly happy to see the Department's 
promotion of research into innovative solutions to improve 
manufacturing efficiency, recycling, and the use of more 
abundant alternatives that can significantly reduce our need 
for these materials going forward. These efforts show that we 
can protect the environment and strengthen our economy at the 
same time--there is no good reason for our nation to make a 
false choice here.
    I also applaud recent announcements from the national labs 
that have been hard at work researching domestic sources of 
critical minerals. Just this week, an analysis conducted by 
Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory found that California's 
Salton Sea has significantpotential as a domestic source of 
lithium--with enough of this critical mineral to support 375 
million batteries for electric vehicles.
    The bottom line is that we must continue to work diligently 
towards securing a sustainable supply of the materials we'll 
need to tackle the climate crisis head-on. But at the same 
time, all of the communities that we serve certainly deserve to 
live in safe and healthy environments, and this hearing is a 
good step towards striking that balance. As we move forward to 
develop domestic supplies, we need to be mindful of the impact 
on communities and how those impacts can be reduced or 
eliminated.
    I look forward to today's conversation, and thank the 
witnesses again for being here today. I yield back.

    Chairman Lucas. The gentlelady yields back. And, as always, 
I appreciate her comments.
    Let me introduce our witnesses for today's hearing. Our 
first witness today is Mr. Ryan Peay. Mr. Peay is the Deputy 
Assistant Secretary for the Office of Resource Sustainability 
at the Department of Energy's Office of Fossil Fuel and Carbon 
Management.
    Our second witness witnesses Mr. Jef Caers. Mr. Caers, he 
is a Professor of Earth and Planetary Science, as well as the 
Director of the Stanford Mineral-X at Stanford University.
    Our third witness is Mr. Drew Horn, the CEO (Chief 
Executive Officer) of GreenMet.
    Our fourth witness is Mr. Dustin Mulvaney, a Professor of 
Environmental Studies at San Jose State University.
    And I'd now like to recognize the gentleman from Florida to 
introduce our final witness.
    Mr. Franklin. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I'm pleased to 
introduce our next witness, Mr. Thomas Baroody, the President 
and CEO of K-Technologies also known as K-Tech. With his 
engineering background, he's held numerous leadership roles in 
mining and chemical processing companies before starting his 
own business. K-Tech is based in Lakeland, Florida, which is in 
my home district, and is a shining example of the innovation 
that comes from the private sector to strengthen our critical 
mineral supply chain.
    Under Mr. Baroody's leadership, his team has been focusing 
on processing techniques such as continuous ion exchange and 
continuous ion chromatography to extract rare earth elements 
(REEs) and minerals. And, as Members of this Committee know, 
the United States is in a race against our adversaries to 
secure the minerals and processing technology in this sector. 
Critical minerals are essential for advancing our domestic 
production of semiconductors, weapons systems, and new 
technologies.
    For those who don't know, Florida plays a significant role 
in feeding our Nation, not only with agricultural products, but 
also by producing fertilizer. There are some challenges, 
though, with the storage and the management of the byproducts 
from the mining that produces that. But through these new 
extraction technologies, these byproducts from the mining can 
be harnessed instead of importing these minerals from overseas.
    I look forward to hearing from Mr. Baroody about the role 
of small businesses in unleashing domestic minerals to support 
our economy and our national security.
    Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I yield back.
    Chairman Lucas. I thank the gentleman for that 
introduction.
    I now recognize Mr. Peay for five minutes to present his 
testimony. You may proceed, sir.

                  TESTIMONY OF MR. RYAN PEAY,

                   DEPUTY ASSISTANT SECRETARY

           FOR THE OFFICE OF RESOURCE SUSTAINABILITY,

         OFFICE OF FOSSIL ENERGY AND CARBON MANAGEMENT,

                   U.S. DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY

    Mr. Peay. Good morning, Chairman Lucas, Ranking Member 
Lofgren, and esteemed Members of the Committee. Thank you for 
the opportunity to testify before you today and discuss DOE's 
work on critical minerals and materials.
    Demand for new clean energy technologies, aerospace and 
defense technologies, and consumer electronics, to name a few, 
will continue to put pressure on the supply chain for critical 
minerals, materials, and rare earth elements. China maintains a 
dominant position in the midstream processing capabilities for 
several different critical materials. Dependence on a single 
source for these materials leaves the United States and our 
allies vulnerable. We must ensure sufficient worldwide supplies 
of critical materials from responsible sources to protect U.S. 
national security and enable a clean energy and industrial 
economy.
    However, that alone will not be sufficient to establish 
resilient supply chains. A lack of processing and refining 
capabilities often poses a greater risk to supply than the 
sources themselves. This provides both a challenge and an 
opportunity for the United States to diversify supply chains, 
improve labor and environmental standards, and create new 
technologies that can be deployed domestically. DOE's Critical 
Materials Research, Development, Demonstration, and Deployment 
Program is meeting this challenge with a strategy consisting of 
five pillars: diversify and expand supply, develop 
alternatives, materials and manufacturing efficiency, circular 
economy, and enabling activities.
    To implement this strategy across the Department, we have 
created the Critical Materials Collaborative to integrate 
applied RDD&D (research, development, demonstration, and 
deployment) to accelerate the development of transformational 
technologies that will be foundational to domestic critical 
material supply chains.
    There are four main methods to diversify supplies of 
critical materials: recycling, recovery from secondary and 
unconventional feedstocks, responsible domestic mining, and 
assessing a broader range of international sources. Two areas I 
want to focus in on are unconventional feedstocks and the 
future of mining.
    Secondary and unconventional feedstocks encompass many 
potential sources, such as coal and coal byproducts, coal 
waste, hard rock mine tailings, and acid mine drainage. There 
are billions of tons of coal waste and coal ash that had been 
generated over the past two centuries and remain in waste piles 
and impoundments. These feedstocks represent a significant 
opportunity to diversify the supply of resources, while 
remediating longstanding environmental impacts and creating 
jobs in mining and energy communities.
    There is also a real need for new and innovative approaches 
to the future of domestic mining. That is why DOE is evaluating 
the potential for research to advance technological solutions 
and revolutionize mining that uses a more surgical approach to 
extract minerals in a manner that minimizes surface and 
environmental impacts and improves public confidence in 
responsible mining techniques.
    Technology development areas for a Mine of the Future 
program would include advanced drilling technologies, novel 
geophysics, digital subsurface applications, and situ mineral 
extraction, novel processing and tailings management. 
Analytical support activities, including data collection and 
developing a traceability capability are also critical.
    Mr. Chairman, critical minerals and materials are crucial 
to the way we live our lives every day. They are required in a 
wide range of strategic industries. U.S. reliance on foreign 
sources for these materials is neither sustainable, nor secure. 
Further investments and efforts to diversify domestic supply 
chains, develop the Mine of the Future, and other research will 
help the U.S. meet our domestic and global supply and security 
needs and protect U.S. consumers in the competitiveness of 
domestic industry and manufacturing.
    I appreciate the Committee for its bipartisan support of 
our critical materials research over many years, and I look 
forward to your questions.
    [The prepared statement of Mr. Peay follows:]
    

    
    Chairman Lucas. Thank you. The Chair now recognizes Dr. 
Caers for five minutes to present his testimony.

                  TESTIMONY OF DR. JEF CAERS,

             PROFESSOR OF EARTH & PLANETARY SCIENCE

              AND DIRECTOR OF STANFORD MINERAL-X,

                      STANFORD UNIVERSITY

    Dr. Caers. Chairman Lucas, Ranking Member Lofgren, and 
Members of the Committee, thank you for this opportunity to 
testify today. My testimony will document that a secure and 
resilient national supply of critical minerals and materials 
cannot be achieved without new domestic discoveries of critical 
mineral deposits.
    Benchmark Minerals has estimated that about 300 new mines 
will be needed during the next decade alone. Most of these 
mines require new discoveries. Currently, the NSF and DOE do 
not fund innovation in mineral exploration. Two months ago, the 
NSF announced inaugural awards for an ambitious program, the 
NSF Global Centers, large awards up to $10 million, aimed to 
foster collaboration with U.S. allies Australia, Canada, and 
the United Kingdom across three main areas: critical minerals, 
energy, and climate. Critical minerals projects received 
$250,000 in funding, while energy and climate projects received 
$76 million.
    Yet at the same time, the funded energy projects in green 
hydrogen, upgrading the electrical grid, and renewable energy 
require vast amounts of critical minerals. Some of these would 
today be sourced from Russia and processed in China. The DOE 
announced last September $150 million to strengthen the 
domestic critical mineral supply with no mention of exploration 
or the need of making new domestic discoveries.
    Legislation passed by Congress, the CHIPS and Science Act 
and the Energy Policy Act of 2020, call for research and 
development of new ways of mineral exploration, including the 
use of artificial intelligence (AI) and machine learning, and 
the study of ore forming processes to have a mentally 
responsible production of domestic resources, as well as 
workforce training for exploration of critical mineral 
resources.
    In my written testimony, I cover six misconceptions that 
are routinely offered countering the need for increase in 
domestic exploration and funding such activities. One 
misconception is that we just need to find replacement 
materials. This is indeed important research, but why bet on a 
single horse? Not all materials can easily be replaced or, more 
importantly, at a timescale we find ourselves today in the 
energy transition.
    Recent research published in Nature has shown that lithium 
in the right combination with nickel and cobalt provides the 
largest energy density, combined with the best thermal 
stability. There is no replacements in the table of elements 
between nickel and cobalt, and lithium is the third largest--
lightest element in the entire universe.
    My overall assessment is that United States is funding 
technological innovation in all parts of the circle of critical 
materials economy except any innovation to discover where in 
the United States these minerals actually are. As an analogy, 
the government's funding new technology in farming, but has no 
good soil to farm on. While the USGS (United States Geological 
Survey) is tasked to assess 50 critical minerals in 50 States 
by 2029, without innovation in mineral exploration, this will 
never happen.
    Less than a year ago, I founded Stanford Mineral-X, a new 
program in critical mineral exploration. Mineral-X is now the 
only U.S. research program in mineral exploration with 
committed funding in the millions of dollars. All of our 
proposals to innovate the critical mineral supply chain in the 
United States have been declined by NSF and DOE. As a 
consequence, it is mostly now funded by foreign companies.
    During the last APEC (Asia-Pacific Economic Cooperation) in 
San Francisco, I personally presented Mineral-X to the 
President of Indonesia, Joko Widodo, resulting in the planning 
of Mineral-X research to be developed to use--be used to 
develop a more sustainable supply chain in Indonesia. Why this 
interest? Together with Coble Metals, a startup company in 
Silicon Valley, Mineral-X has built technology that is founded 
on rigorous data science and comprehensive artificial 
intelligence to accelerate critical mineral exploration now 
actively employed in 60 assets over three continents. That 
technology today is not used in the United States.
    Finally, I'd like to provide recommendations on how we can 
address this alarming situation. I propose for Congress to 
fully fund the Critical Minerals Mining Research and 
Development Program authorized in the CHIPS and Science Act, 
and to encourage partnerships with allied nations, Canada, 
Australia in a national program similar to the NSF Global 
Centers at the level of $25 million. Artificial intelligence, 
geosciences, and environmental justice are foundational to such 
a program, and my written testimony has detailed proposals on 
how to achieve this. If finding critical minerals is one of the 
defining challenges of this century, its most revolutionary 
technology--AI--may well hold the key to unlocking them. Let's 
start using that in this country as well.
    Again, many thanks for the opportunity today, and I'll be 
happy to answer any questions.
    [The prepared statement of Dr. Caers follows:]
    

    
    Chairman Lucas. Thank you. I now recognize Mr. Horn for 
five minutes to present his testimony.

                  TESTIMONY OF MR. DREW HORN,

               CHIEF EXECUTIVE OFFICER, GreenMet

    Mr. Horn. Thank you, Chairman. Chairman Lucas, Ranking 
Member Lofgren, Members of the Committee, thank you for the 
opportunity to testify today on this important topic of 
leveraging Federal research dollars to achieve a robust 
American supply chain for critical minerals. My name is Drew 
Horn, and I am the founder, President, and CEO of GreenMet. We 
are a private company working to develop American critical 
mineral and clean energy supply chains. Our efforts serve to 
reduce U.S. overreliance on imports of critical minerals and 
metals, particularly from adversaries, thereby strengthening 
U.S. national security. In other words, Mr. Chairman, America's 
critical mineral security is national security.
    As the new American conduit between private capital and 
critical mineral innovation, GreenMet has unique privilege of 
representing the complete private sector policy interests that 
support and sustain reliable and uninterruptible U.S. supply 
chains of critical minerals from mine through manufacturing. It 
is from that lens that I address the Committee today.
    Public-private partnerships are the most effective way to 
harness Federal research dollars and incubate, accelerate, and 
scale innovations in all segments of the mineral supply chains 
from mining to manufacturing. In the context of the critical 
mineral supply chain, not all minerals or elements are of equal 
priority to our national agenda. Federal research dollars must 
be allocated toward those projects that achieve our economic, 
energy, and national security needs.
    For example, we absolutely need the rare earth neodymium to 
produce rare earth magnets. However, only magnets containing 
added dysprosium and terbium can resist extreme temperatures 
required for critical military and civilian uses to include 
electric vehicle supply chains and motor services. Our 
adversaries in China and Russia recognize this and restrict 
access to these heavy rare earths wherever and whenever they 
can.
    By directing applied research funds further upstream, the 
United States can continue to bolster its capabilities in 
mining, processing, refining, and metallurgy, all steps that 
lead to true domestic manufacturing. I urge the Committee to 
fully consider that we can develop our own superior U.S. 
capabilities in this sector and that we can do more than simply 
re-shore from adversaries to options that provide only a slight 
decrease in vulnerability.
    A good recent example of prioritizing upstream funding is 
the DPA (Defense Production Act) Title III language in the IRA 
(Inflation Reduction Act) that is intended to fund critical 
domestic projects based off the latest R&D. Two projects well-
suited for this type of funding are the Wyoming-based Bear 
Lodge Rare Earth Project and Missouri-based Caldera tailings 
reclamation project at Pea Ridge, between which we can meet all 
domestic heavy rare earth demand without looking outside our 
own borders.
    GreenMet is proud to support both as they would seek to 
provide the U.S. Government with the most cost-effective and 
practical path to secure an uninterruptible supply chain for 
heavy rare earths from mine to separated rare earth oxides. 
These oxides are vital for high-strength permanent magnets 
required for defense, offshore wind turbines, and electric 
vehicles, and innumerable uses in clean energy. We must ensure 
our R&D efforts and national labs are focused on meeting our 
national priorities.
    These efforts must be matched with large-scale investors 
and commercial leaders and manufacturing so that this research 
serves as a true catalyst and enabler for commercial large-
scale U.S. growth, successful research grants to facilitate 
breakthrough developments and incubate those new methods to the 
point of a viable commercial handoff. Just yesterday, our 
partner Caldera announced they will be licensing Oak Ridge 
National Lab's advanced extraction technique to separate rare 
earth elements in mined ore. Their Pea Ridge mine has high 
amounts of the key rare earth element dysprosium, and now, 
through federally developed technology, they will be able to 
separate that and other critical elements and minerals in a 
more efficient and environmentally friendly manner.
    We have another partner that is leading the world in vapor 
metallurgy technology and is looking to use this technology to 
cleanly and efficiently transform mineral waste piles, also 
known as tailings, into metals essential to our energy and 
national security applications.
    For minerals in American mines to their end products in 
American manufacturing plants, our industries benefit most from 
federally funded R&D that goes beyond laboratory and 
demonstration products such that we can achieve full 
commercialization as rapidly as possible. To that end, projects 
developed through Federal R&D dollars must automatically 
qualify for fast tracking of any follow-on permitting required 
to commercialize.
    The time for bold bipartisan congressional action is now. 
In summary, we need Congress to ensure we are investing our 
Federal research dollars across the entire mineral supply chain 
to enable America to be more secure and self-sufficient. 
Furthermore, when allocating these precious taxpayer dollars, 
we must be expeditious in meeting--in moving innovations 
through the complete project development lifestyle. By doing 
so, we can establish the United States as the world leader in 
responsible, clean, ethical, and cost-efficient production of 
minerals.
    Mr. Chairman, I thank you again, and I look forward to 
taking any questions from the Committee.
    [The prepared statement of Mr. Horn follows:]
    

    
    Chairman Lucas. Thank you. I now recognize Dr. Mulvaney for 
five minutes to present his testimony.

               TESTIMONY OF DR. DUSTIN MULVANEY,

              PROFESSOR OF ENVIRONMENTAL STUDIES,

                   SAN JOSE STATE UNIVERSITY

    Dr. Mulvaney. Good morning, Chairman Lucas, Ranking Member 
Lofgren, and other Members. Thank you for the invitation today.
    Experts widely agree that there are serious risks posed by 
weak and fragile critical mineral and material supply chains to 
national security, domestic industries, and critical 
infrastructure sectors. I would like to emphasize continued and 
further support in several areas of research and regulation 
that would make critical mineral and materials supply chains 
more resilient and improve social and environmental outcomes.
    Federal investments in research and development for 
critical minerals and materials will be greatly enhanced with 
comprehensive and enforceable standards. This includes policies 
that require extended producer responsibility, green design, 
and setting high benchmarks for recycled content in new 
materials, helping foster emerging domestic markets in recycled 
and recovered materials. These efforts in tandem with 
investments in research and development and setting 
comprehensive rules and standards will enhance critical 
material and mineral supplies and strengthen domestic supply 
chains. This will further reduce the need for primary 
extraction in mining activities and reduce the burden on local 
landfills, material recovery facilities, and the communities 
that they're located in.
    The new battery regulation in the European Union released 
is a good starting point that could be replicated here for 
other products that contain critical minerals and materials. 
These rules require battery producers meet specified social and 
environmental standards across the entire lifecycle of the 
product, including an end-of-life management plan. Today, only 
10 to 15 percent of lithium-ion batteries are collected in the 
United States. Recycling efforts could recover cobalt, nickel, 
manganese, lithium, graphite, aluminum, copper that would bring 
environmental benefits as well. Recycling can augment critical 
mineral and materials supplies. Some estimates suggest that 
recycled supplies could satisfy up to 25 percent of lithium, 35 
percent For cobalt and nickel, and 55 percent for copper by 
2040.
    The reason these materials go uncollected is a lack of 
rules and regulations that require recovery and collection. 
According to the GAO (Government Accountability Office), most 
critical minerals such as rare earths are not collected for 
recycling on a large scale in part because of variations in 
recycling programs. U.S. recycling collection infrastructure is 
also outdated. Germanium and gallium are two critical minerals 
that are representative of challenges posed by a lack of 
extended producer responsibility. We do very little recycling 
of LEDs (light-emitting diodes), scrap materials, and everyday 
devices and appliances containing germanium and gallium-based 
semiconductors including microwaves, Blu-ray players, and other 
electronic products. No gallium is recycled in the United 
States, and only small amounts of germanium are recovered and 
exported for recycling. The United States should develop 
regulations and invest in more efforts like the recently 
developed Defense Logistics Agency Program for recycling 
optical-grade germanium. That will result in supplying up to 10 
percent of the materials needed for the next generation of 
equipment in a few years.
    Finally, avoiding toxic materials in electronic products 
and devices are also critical to adjust an equitable circular 
economy. Effective public policy that reduces toxic exposures 
can help ensure workers and communities where recycling and 
recovery facilities are located will not be harmed by the 
operations of these infrastructures. Utilizing the purchasing 
power of the Federal Government could also be used to set some 
of these standards through procurement.
    Waste is also an important resource for critical metals. 
Policies and practices that encourage waste and tailings use at 
mine sites is another strategy to augment critical mineral 
supplies. Recovering from mine waste could be pursued alongside 
environmental remediation where work to process materials may 
be underway for cleanup already.
    Material recovery in mining and downstream processing in 
the market is optimized for profitability, not maximizing 
materials or byproducts. More incentive to develop byproducts, 
recover materials at smelters, or increase recovery rates could 
help drive up the recycling of these materials. Smelters in the 
United States, for example, are not designed to recover many 
critical minerals. For example, there are no domestic smelters 
that can recover cobalt.
    We can increase the resource efficiency of many of the 
materials we use today as well. A photovoltaic module today, 
thanks to increased resource efficiency, uses about five times 
less silver than a module 10 years ago. Similarly, 
semiconductor wafers for the same technology are two to three 
times thinner than just a decade so we could avoid using 
polysilicon. This is translated to lower energy inputs and 
silicon feedstocks needed for the solar industry.
    Some critical materials--minerals are used dissipatively in 
lower concentrations than found in ores, and these should be 
avoided. Some screenings of critical minerals have found that 
most have dissipated use rates over 50 percent, which is 
consistently much higher than other metals.
    The social and environmental benefits of developing a 
circular economy for critical minerals and materials supplies 
are manyfold. Other implications of expanded recycling 
collection systems for materials include job creation, 
infrastructure investment, and workforce development.
    I appreciate the opportunity to speak before you and look 
forward to any questions you might have.
    [The prepared statement of Dr. Mulvaney follows:]
   

    
    Chairman Lucas. Thank you. I now recognize Mr. Baroody for 
five minutes to present his testimony.

              TESTIMONY OF MR. THOMAS E. BAROODY,

              PRESIDENT & CHIEF EXECUTIVE OFFICER,

                      K-TECHNOLOGIES, INC.

    Mr. Baroody. Good morning, Chairman Lucas, Ranking Member 
Lofgren, and Members of the Committee. I want to thank you for 
the invitation to be on this excellent panel today.
    As one of the representatives of the private sector, it is 
my hope that I can provide information and perspective as you 
consider the vital topics of Federal research and prudent 
taxpayer spending married with the private sector initiatives 
and risk-taking in critical minerals. Time is of the essence, 
and the task is urgent. Rare earth elements are available from 
multiple sources such as high-grade mineral ores, low-grade 
ionic clays, waste materials like phosphogypsum, coal mining, 
tailings, and end-of-life magnets.
    Each source requires different methods to liberate the 
valuable rare earths. For practical economic purposes, these 
initial processes must be undertaken at the source location. 
Intermediate products from the source location are exported 
primarily to China as a mineral concentrate. These intermediate 
products are then processed to produce the purified rare earth 
oxides which feed the metal and alloy manufacturers, who in 
turn supply the magnet manufacturers. Presently, the final 
stage of REE processing is performed by an environmentally 
unfriendly solvent extraction process, which is independent of 
the rare earth source. China is a heavy and dominant player on 
this end of the business.
    I would like to talk today about some of the successful 
projects K-Tech is engaged in and what we're doing to advance 
the goal of bringing critical minerals into the United States. 
K-Tech has specialized in developing and bringing to market 
chemical processing applications to extract desirable 
commercial-grade elements and other materials. We have been 
researching and developing our CIX/CIC technology for 
application to rare earth separation and purification for 
several years and are seeing excellent results. The CIX/CIC 
process has numerous advantages over the conventional solvent 
extraction route in terms of economic safety, environmental 
impact, and size of the production plant, with much lower 
capital and operating costs.
    Rainbow Rare Earths is an innovator in bringing rare earths 
to market. They have focused on permanent magnet rare earth 
elements neodymium, praseodymium, dysprosium, and terbium. 
These elements are categorized by the U.S. Government as being 
vital in both the short term and the medium term. Rainbow, 
which is traded on the London Stock Exchange, desires to have 
its products processed and used in the United States, North 
America, and allied European markets. Their corporate strategy 
meshes well with the Department of Energy's July 2023 critical 
minerals assessment. That strategy document focuses on 
diversifying and expanding U.S. suppliers, developing 
alternative manufacturing processes, enhancing manufacturing 
efficiency to reduce waste, and international engagements that 
benefit the United States.
    Rainbow is developing its Phalaborwa project in South 
Africa to recover rare earths from phosphogypsum and has opted 
for K-Tech's CIX/CIC process for the separation and 
purification of the rare earths. The South African project, 
along with a future one in Brazil, present a unique opportunity 
for K-Tech to utilize its process, allowing separated rare 
earth oxides to be produced independently from China for sale 
to the United States and allowing development of a U.S. supply 
chain. If Rainbow is successful in developing a Brazilian 
operation like it plans in South Africa, the back end of the 
process facility--that's K-Tech's system--could be logically 
located in the United States. I understand that Rainbow has 
started the project--the process to consider potential sites 
for a commercial plant in the United States. This would greatly 
benefit U.S. production of critical rare earth materials.
    K-Tech is currently concluding bench-scale testing on the 
Phalaborwa material from South Africa and has assembled a pilot 
plant for Rainbow South African material at its Florida 
facility. The process in Florida will allow production of 
separated rare earth battery metal oxides on a commercial basis 
in the United States. That represents a major step forward in 
bringing this type of supply to the United States.
    I would also like to stress we are doing something else 
that makes the United States unique, developing significant 
intellectual property that ensures our Nation is the technical 
logical leader for decades to come. My colleague Wes Berry, the 
company, and I hold eight patents, soon to be nine, and K-Tech 
and Rainbow are jointly progressing a patent application for 
our process in the United States.
    K-Tech is highly supportive of the Federal Government's 
effort to support domestic and foreign sourcing, processing, 
research, and funding. The Departments of Energy, Defense, 
Commerce, and the U.S. Development Finance Corporation (DFC) 
are playing a key role in unlocking capital to promote 
opportunities in critical minerals. Rainbow has entered into an 
option agreement whereby TechMet has the right to invest $50 
million to fund a substantial part of the equity component of 
Rainbow's project in South Africa. The DFC is an important 
shareholder in TechMet.
    In conclusion, the United States has always led the world 
in the field of science. At K-Tech, we are devoted to further 
science that leads to better and practical outcomes in the area 
of critical minerals. I would like to thank the Committee for 
the opportunity to provide you with testimony today. Thank you.
    [The prepared statement of Mr. Baroody follows:]
    

    
    Chairman Lucas. Thank you, and I want to thank the 
witnesses for their testimony.
    The Chair recognizes himself for five minutes.
    Establishing secure and abundant supply chains of critical 
minerals and materials is a global grand challenge. Now, I'd 
like to hear from each of you, if the United States continues 
to rely on foreign nations to supply and process these 
resources, what kinds of vulnerabilities are we exposing 
ourselves to in the terms of national security, economic 
expansion, clean energy potential? The floor is yours, 
gentlemen.
    Mr. Baroody. I'll answer that from a rare earths 
perspective and some of the other critical metals. China is a 
big producer of rare earths, both intermediate products and the 
finished products. They account for anywhere from 80 to 90 
percent of the rare earths produced and used in the world 
today. I think we need to bring the chain over here to the 
United States and have the United States be the producer of 
record that can carry forward and offset this tremendous 
dependence on China.
    Chairman Lucas. Please, Doctor.
    Dr. Caers. Yes, I'd like to talk about two elements, 
lithium and copper. Lithium, as you perhaps know, half of the 
world's lithium is mined in Australia. The biggest mine is 
called the Greenbushes mine, and the majority ownership in that 
mine is China. So even though we think about Australia as a 
friendly country, lots of mining and processing is actually 
done by China.
    The Salton Sea component, I don't share the optimism of my 
colleagues in the lab, and so do many experts internationally 
on lithium, and the reason for that is that about--the lithium 
concentration in Salton Sea is very low, about 200 ppm (parts 
per million). I compare that with, for example, Chile has a 
1400 ppm lithium. One of the big problems with lithium 
extraction or called direct lithium extraction (DLE) is the 
many impurities, as well as other elements that are existing in 
these brines such as calcium and magnesium. Now, battery-grade 
lithium is about 99 percent pure lithium, so to go from a dirty 
brine so to speak into a 99 percent--7 percent lithium is 
something that has not been shown to be at scale. Only pilot 
plants have been shown to work but not large manufacturing.
    In terms of copper, I'd like to note that the United States 
is actually mining copper at a decreasing concentration, now at 
0.39 percent. Just to give you an idea of what that means, it 
means that if you excavate 1 ton of copper, you get 14 and--1 
ton of material, you get 14 ounces of copper. If you do this in 
Zambia, what you are doing with Coble Metals, you get about 200 
ounces of copper. That means that we in this country have to 
move 10 to 20 times more material into--on the earth to do 
that. So that means that if we continue mining this way, it's 
just not responsible. We have to discover deposits with high-
grade copper. These are just harder to find, and that's also 
why my testimony was more around discovery, but particularly 
discovery of high-grade material and not constantly mining this 
very low-grade copper deposits.
    Chairman Lucas. Anyone else wish to touch that? Yes, Mr. 
Horn.
    Mr. Horn. Mr. Chairman, I think that what you're referring 
to talks about vulnerability from not just a national security 
perspective, but from an economic security perspective and even 
environmental. You know, my background is in some ways not as 
distinguished as my fellow witnesses here. I'm just a former, 
you know, Green Beret with an MBA, so I kind of have a tendency 
to state things bluntly, maybe too bluntly at times.
    But I would say, you know, right now, if we don't take 
corrective action, the situation is dire. We are in an 
existential crisis right now where two of our largest 
adversaries control everything that we need to conduct any sort 
of strategic engagement with them, should it come to that. And 
while we hope that that won't happen, we've seen what's 
happened in Ukraine. We've seen some of the events in Gaza. 
We've seen some of the events that are building in the South 
Pacific. We simply cannot allow vital materials to be dependent 
upon the interest of our adversaries who have in the past shown 
they will leverage that position much to their favor and to our 
disadvantage.
    So I would say we have the materials here in the United 
States. We used to control this industry. I think we can, 
again, should we take the necessary corrective action. We have 
the best technology. We have the highest standards of 
oversight, environmental and social protection. Bear in mind 
that folks driving Teslas sadly need to be aware of where some 
of those materials are sourced from.
    And I will say that some of the material sourced as a part 
of the electrification are simply coming from child slave labor 
run by the PRC (People's Republic of China) on the other side 
of the planet. We cannot allow our electrification and our 
technology transfer to be dependent upon such deplorable 
techniques, tactics, and practices. We have the ability and the 
need to own this again in the United States.
    Chairman Lucas. Thank you. My time has expired. I now 
recognize the Ranking Member, Ms. Lofgren, for her questions.
    Ms. Lofgren. Well, thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thanks to 
the entire panel for very instructive testimony.
    You know, I was talking to some of my constituents not too 
long ago, and they were talking about rare earth as if it was 
so rare, it couldn't be found. And that's--actually, that's not 
the definition of rare earth. So it's really unfortunate in a 
way that that's the title, and it's really a matter of 
identifying and exploiting this opportunity for our benefit.
    But I wanted to turn to the situation of the Salton Sea and 
lithium. Dr. Caers, your recent answer was depressing. I chair 
the California Democratic Delegation. We had--you know, we meet 
every week, and one of the topics was the lithium in the Salton 
Sea. And some of the information we were receiving was really 
more optimistic than what you have just described. Obviously, 
the concentration level is low, but also, it doesn't need to be 
mined. I mean, it's--it needs to be extracted from liquid, 
which is a whole different implication. What do you see--and I 
want to ask Dr. Mulvaney and others here--that--is there an 
opportunity to apply our science community to methods that 
might make this resource more accessible to us in your 
judgment?
    Dr. Caers. Yes, so to make it more accessible, we have to 
understand the entire system better. So the Salton Sea is a 
geothermal brine, so these are fluids or--that sit in the 
subsurface. So one of the things that's actually not quite 
understood is how are these fluids moving in the subsurface? 
How is this affecting the groundwater system? Because once you 
start pumping material out, you know, the earth starts to react 
by--in various ways, so that is not very well understood. So I 
think more funding needs to go in understanding the entire 
system.
    The other thing we have to understand also better is the 
environmental consequences of the direct lithium extraction. If 
indeed the direct lithium extraction is not as good as it 
should be, then we still need to use freshwater and 
evaporation. So we need to--and that, of course, in the Salton 
Sea is a big issue.
    The other thing is that in the Salton Sea--and my colleague 
will talk more about that--is the environmental justice 
concerns. I have a student Sergio Lopez who was the first 
person to go knock on people's door in the Salton Sea and 
actually talk to the community. People who do environmental 
science, people who work in industry, I think, you know, it 
will be also great for them to get more involved with those 
communities and see what their needs are. So see it more as a 
system approach, and I think that will help us better 
understand what the consequences are of extraction.
    Ms. Lofgren. Thank you for that. You know, the Salton Sea 
actually was a mistake was its origin. It's not--and now, of 
course, it's an environmental hazard with the winds. And what 
was described to us yesterday was extraction but then recharge 
to avoid the subsidence issue that is of concern.
    Dr. Mulvaney, do you have any comments on this? Is this 
going to be an important resource to us or not?
    Dr. Mulvaney. I think it depends. I think there's a lot 
to--that still has to play out there. I am working with an 
environmental justice group in the area. I'm on the Lithium 
Valley Equity Technical Advisory Group, so I don't have the 
technical background that my colleague to my right here has. 
But there are issues with water use and things like that that 
still need to be sorted out and evaluated. But I'm not sure we 
know the full answer. There are three current developments in 
progress right now where they're working on this. One is just 
doing straight-up lithium extraction, one's doing it with 
geothermal, and then there's an existing geothermal plant 
that's also working on lithium development.
    I think a lot of this is also dictated by the price for 
lithium. If people have been following the market, the price of 
lithium has fallen pretty significantly, so that might dictate 
whether or not the Salton Sea is economically viable mining, 
and obviously, it's very--commodities with their prices 
bouncing around makes things a bit more challenging. But I 
don't know if we have the answer yet.
    Ms. Lofgren. Right. My time is almost up, but I'm hoping 
that after this, you can describe more of the recapture of 
lithium because, obviously, if we're only recycling 10 to 15 
percent, we're wasting a lot of a resource. How much of it is 
in consumer goods? How much in commercial goods because that 
would lead to different endeavors in terms of recoveries.
    My time has expired, Mr. Chairman. I yield back.
    Chairman Lucas. The gentlelady's time has expired.
    The gentleman from Florida, Mr. Posey, is recognized for 
five minutes for his questions.
    Mr. Posey. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    Mr. Horn, what has been your experience of converting 
federally funded R&D projects into full commercialization? Mr. 
Horn?
    Mr. Horn. Federal funding is key to unlocking private 
capital and to moving projects forward. I've seen multiple 
examples of successful deployment across the spectrum from 
battery materials such as the lithium that's been described, to 
rare earths. Referencing several projects in California from 
the previous conversation, there's several that have been 
supported in various capacities by Federal research and 
development dollars, and I think that it's brought about the 
right kind of development that you're looking for.
    I think there needs to be more. I speak representing the 
investor base that's looking to pour private capital into the 
right projects here, and I can tell you that the appetite for 
their deployment is entirely enabled and encouraged by 
deployment of these Federal funds. So I'd say that they're 
critical, and I hope that that answers the question to the 
degree you're looking.
    Mr. Posey. Yes, it does. Thank you very much.
    What could Congress do to encourage it?
    Mr. Horn. I think proper oversight and allocation of 
funding to state the obvious. The biggest thing needed would be 
to ensure that public capital is directed toward projects that, 
you know, simply put, are winners. You know, as I stated in my 
testimony, we've got multiple projects our partners are working 
on that would essentially provide the entire U.S. demand for 
heavy rare earths that go into every single EV, phone, 
commodity, you name it. So that is within our fingertips' 
reach, should we be able to provide additional funding capital 
and commonsense permitting to allow us to bring this to full 
commercialization. It's very close.
    Mr. Posey. As another witness mentioned previously, China 
announced export restrictions on germanium and gallium and 
recently included natural and synthetic graphite. You know, 
will these export restrictions harm our national security, our 
space industry, our supply chain? And, you know, Mr. Horn and 
Mr. Peay, I'd like you to respond to that.
    Mr. Horn. We're incredibly vulnerable right now. The 
Chinese Government has shown their hand and their plan. They 
have not made any attempt to hide it or to even distract from 
what they plan to do, and they have done it sequentially now 
with multiple materials, much as they did previously when the 
Japanese were trying to optimize their own rare earth 
capabilities. So, as we stand right now, if we don't take 
drastic, immediate action to open up U.S. opportunities, we'll 
be in a situation where we will not be able to compete in vital 
national security areas that put our entire security at risk.
    Mr. Posey. Thank you. Mr. Peay?
    Mr. Peay. Yes, we don't know exactly what the impact is 
going to be yet, but this leaves us very vulnerable. It's why 
the work we're doing is so important and why we have to look 
across the entire supply chain from diversifying and expanding 
our supply, to developing alternatives, to working on our 
materials and manufacturing. As I said in my testimony, you 
know, it's not enough if we just can extract the raw materials 
trying to control the entire midstream. And so it's not just 
them cutting us off from gallium and germanium, but their 
control of the midstream has--also puts us in a very vulnerable 
position.
    Mr. Posey. In your written testimony, you mentioned 
equitable social performance as part of the process at the 
Department of Energy's approach to build a new domestic 
commercial infrastructure. You know, what does that mean?
    Mr. Peay. So we need to be just as--we need to be very 
concerned about responsible labor standards and responsible 
production here in the United States when we do extraction. And 
so other countries have abhorrent standards for child labor, 
for environmental standards, and so as we bring these 
industries back onshore, we need to make sure that we're doing 
things responsibly here in America.
    Mr. Posey. Very good. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I yield 
back.
    Chairman Lucas. The gentleman yields back. The Chair now 
recognizes the gentlelady from Oregon, Ms. Bonamici, for five 
minutes.
    Ms. Bonamici. Thank you so much, Chairman Lucas and Ranking 
Member Lofgren, and thank you to our witnesses for your 
expertise.
    I want to start by emphasizing the importance of 
transitioning to a clean energy economy to lower costs for 
families but also, importantly, to cut greenhouse gas 
emissions. And recognize--we all recognize that renewable 
energy technologies, solar panels, advanced batteries, 
transmission lines will all require significant amounts of 
critical minerals. That's not in dispute.
    Many of these high-demand minerals can be found in vast 
quantities and deposits in the deep ocean seabed, so I want to 
raise the concern and the issue about deep-sea mining. I know 
Ranking Member Lucas mentioned the Salton Sea, but deep-sea 
mining is something I'm concerned about. I want to note that 
the International Seabed Authority prohibits deep-sea mining on 
international sea floors, but some coastal nations--Norway, for 
example--are investing in deep-sea mining technologies to ramp 
up stocks of critical minerals.
    I work on a lot of ocean health issues, so I'm raising this 
issue because I note that deep-sea mining can present 
significant risks that could harm marine life, ecosystems. 
Sediment agitation, for example, could expose buried organic 
carbon, disrupting water flow and nutrient cycling for deep-sea 
life. The released carbon dioxide could then increase ocean 
acidification, which is an issue that we've been working on in 
a bipartisan basis that affects our marine life and shellfish 
industries, for example.
    So, Mr. Peay, you state in your testimony that the 
Department of Energy is exploring investments in surgical 
mining techniques and technologies. Deep-sea mining techniques 
do involve--typically involve--including remote devices--large 
remote devices that crawl along the seafloor and use grinding 
wheels to break up the hydrothermal vents. So do these surgical 
methods apply also to deep-sea mining? And what research is the 
Department of Energy conducting to understand the environmental 
effects and technological barriers to deep-sea mining?
    Mr. Peay. Yes, thank you for your question. So we're 
currently not doing any deep-sea mining research. I'm aware of 
some of the projects and work you're talking about. What we're 
looking at with the future of mining is really that we 
understand that there's--in conventional mining, there's a lot 
of challenges. There's a lot of environmental impacts, a lot of 
waste material that comes from it. But our department has a lot 
of expertise on the subsurface, and we want to leverage that to 
try to find ways to extract ore without having to do large open 
pit mining, without putting people underground in underground 
mines. You know, it's kind of similar to what we did in shale 
on how we can understand the subsurface. Can we access the 
minerals, pull it out without having a lot of waste that comes 
up. And so that is what we're evaluating. This is not a program 
that we have started yet. We're evaluating if this is an area 
that DOE can provide help to industry and to our country.
    Ms. Bonamici. I appreciate that.
    I'm going to ask Mr. Mulvaney. Considering the increased 
demand for critical minerals and the unknown long-term 
environmental effects of deep-sea mining, can you talk about 
what research might be needed to determine the viability of 
deep-sea mining as a potential alternative to land-based 
mineral extraction?
    Dr. Mulvaney. I'm not as familiar with the deep-sea mining 
issues specifically. But in general, when we're looking at 
opening up new areas for resource extraction, things like 
programmatic environmental impact statements or marine spatial 
planning could help identify where the particular conflicts are 
and to see whether or not there are possibilities for agreement 
on where there might be less disruption, whether that's on land 
or sea.
    Ms. Bonamici. I appreciate that. Is anyone on the panel 
doing any research on--Dr. Caers?
    Dr. Caers. Yes. So with Coble Metals, we looked into deep-
sea mining as these nodules contain cobalt.
    Ms. Bonamici. Correct.
    Dr. Caers. There has been extensive research on the effect 
of moving materially on the ocean floor. There is a project in 
Peru that's shown that if you start doing that, the plumes, the 
bentonite blooms will travel hundreds of kilometers away from 
the source that you're disturbing.
    So deep-sea mining, it's often shown as, we're going to 
just pick the nodules up from the floor. That's not where--how 
it works. You really start to excavate things. The alternative 
to me--and coming back to this laparoscopic mining--is just 
again, hydrate deposits. For example, in--we're working in--
Cape Smith is the northern part of Quebec where there's already 
a mine called the Raglan mine, which is 3 percent nickel, and 
you can mine that very laparoscopically. Essentially, the ore 
body is only 500 meters wide with an underground mine. If you 
stand there at that area, you will see a building.
    So while in the United States we're mining at such low 
grade that we have to use these very large open pit mines. So 
not all mining is the same, and the mine program that the DOE 
has----
    Ms. Bonamici. I see my time has expired. Mr. Chairman, as I 
yield back, I request unanimous consent to enter into the 
record a briefing paper from Ocean Conservancy about the 
overall risks and uncertainties that deep-sea critical mineral 
extraction poses to climate adaptation.
    Chairman Lucas. Seeing no objection, so ordered.
    Ms. Bonamici. Thank you, and I yield back.
    Chairman Lucas. The Chair now recognizes the gentleman from 
Florida, Mr. Webster, for five minutes for questions.
    Mr. Webster. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you, each 
one of you, who has come. It's a very interesting subject and 
also a very timely one.
    I guess the one thing that caught my mind when I was 
listening to the testimony was from Dr. Mulvaney. You spent a 
good little section of your time talking about minerals and 
other things that are not even--they don't even come close to 
recapturing those, that they're just, I guess, thrown away or 
whatever, done away with. So the actual recovery of some was 
good, a few, but not all. What--where--what's the first step we 
would take to increase the amount of reclaiming of the used 
minerals?
    Dr. Mulvaney. I think one of the major barriers to 
particularly an emerging industry where you're just starting to 
get end-of-life products at high--your volumes aren't high 
enough. You need to have high enough volumes. An early action 
item would be to have takeback and collection systems. Just 
that step of reverse logistics, getting things from people's 
homes back to a centralized location can make that recovery 
process much cheaper to people who are interested in developing 
recycling programs. We've seen in Europe, for example, the 
development of a takeback and collection system in solar panels 
has not only led to increased recycling rates--95 percent of 
solar panels in Europe are recycled--but they also have 
fostered a reuse market just by having large volumes of 
materials recollected. So that would be my first action item is 
to have some kind of takeback and collection system that falls 
under an extended producer responsibility program.
    Mr. Webster. So I've toured some--maybe one area like that 
where this company collects computers. Maybe they pay for them, 
I don't remember if they did or not, or just collect them. And 
then they capture back silver, other things out of those. Is 
that when you're talking about, something like that? They go 
down and they take every little piece that's in there and 
separate it out and gather the--what can be reused, and they do 
it.
    Dr. Mulvaney. Yes, that's correct. In Japan, for example, 
they have very good collection of flat panel displays, even 
cell phones that have indium tin oxide so they can recover the 
indium. So--and again, that's all aided by having strong 
takeback and collection systems that make it more economically 
viable for people who are dealing with waste. You know, waste 
industries don't get to pick what they--what they're dealing 
with, so having someone bring things in concentrate, things 
that are scattered across many households or businesses can 
help foster those----
    Mr. Webster. Does the government have a role in that in any 
way?
    Dr. Mulvaney. Either government or industry associations 
are the two primary ways that you could develop a takeback and 
collection system. Some States and some--and the European 
Union, for example, have the waste electronic--waste and 
electronic equipment directive that requires the takeback and 
collection of any electrical equipment. We don't have anything 
like that in the United States, which means that States are 
left to design their own programs.
    Mr. Webster. So is it profitable so that people would 
engage in that activity?
    Dr. Mulvaney. Yes. I think now, there are--you know, 
Germany just opened a very, very large solar panel recycling 
facility, and that's all because now they can go easily 
collect, you know, several thousand solar panels at once 
instead of having to go get, you know, 10 or 20 at every single 
individual household. So just having that reverse logistics is 
really, really, I think, a gamechanger for industries that want 
to develop that.
    Mr. Webster. Thank you very much. I yield back.
    Chairman Lucas. The gentleman yields back. The Chair now 
recognizes the gentlelady from Michigan, Ms. Stevens, for five 
minutes.
    Ms. Stevens. Thank you, Mr. Chair. I'd like to ask 
unanimous consent to insert in the record a letter by the 
American Critical Minerals Association. They represent a 
diverse swath of critical mineral supply chain from producers 
to end users, and I want to thank them for this letter and 
engaging their stakeholders with all of us here today.
    Chairman Lucas. Without objection, so ordered.
    Ms. Stevens. It's a good letter, Mr. Chair, I promise.
    Chairman Lucas. You always have good letters.
    Ms. Stevens. So I couldn't imagine a more important hearing 
and topic for Congress, and so glad that we're approaching this 
in a bipartisan way with a very diverse array of voices from 
academia and the government and the private sector.
    We hear you loud and clear that we are in a perilous and 
risky moment as it pertains to, yet again, our overreliance, 
particularly on the CCP (Chinese Communist Party), for critical 
minerals and materials. And it's not just the materials or the 
minerals themselves. It's the refining process, as Mr. Baroody 
mentioned. Upwards of 90 percent has to take place in China. 
And the directive of taking corrective action, as Mr. Horn 
advised, is heeded here, not only in this Committee, but the 
Select Committee on U.S. Strategic Competitiveness with the CCP 
that I feel very privileged to sit on.
    And so the question I do want to ask, though, is what is 
the corrective action? Some of you mentioned in testimony that 
we passed a CHIPS and Science Act, much of which came through 
this very Committee, something that we were all very proud to 
work on in a bipartisan way. Is that the type of model that 
would work here, particularly with what we did with CHIPS, $52 
billion, a large investment from the Federal Government, $52 
billion dollars being administered by the Department of 
Commerce? Before $1 was allocated, though, we received notice 
that $200 billion of private sector investment was put into the 
marketplace.
    Now, it's not just as simple as that because we've got 
another layer here that our environmentalists also care about, 
which is permitting reform. So is there palatability here? And, 
Mr. Peay, I don't want to put you totally on the spot on this 
one because I got some questions for you, but maybe for our 
academia and private sector partners, you could kind of chime 
in here on corrective action we need to take because there's a 
problem. There's been a problem for 15 years. We need to get in 
front of it, and we need to make sure it's not just the United 
States, too. Baroody, you're talking about, hey, United States 
needs to do it. We've got trade relationships. You know, we've 
got trade agreements we can pursue, too, here. We've got AUKUS 
(Australia-United Kingdom-United States). We've got USMCA 
(United States-Mexico-Canada Agreement). So next big bold ideas 
about corrective action, anyone for the taking? Mr. Horn?
    Mr. Horn. Well, thank you, Congresswoman. And I would say 
in short, a part of your question, yes, that was absolutely a 
step in the right direction, and in my opinion, it was 
consequentially huge in motivating the private sector, the 
investor base to actually mobilize and get more involved, and I 
see that every single day.
    As far as the trade and international relations, I think 
that's a key part, and I think what it really comes down to is 
transparency and accountability of all parties. You know, I 
remember back in the 1990's, there was the blood diamond issue 
where, basically, it became exposed that, you know, engagement 
rings were being done on the back of violence and child slave 
labor. That's happening again today. It should not be permitted 
or allowed.
    I think that the distinguished fellow panelists that are 
speaking about scientific innovation and solutions absolutely 
have solutions that are far superior to anything that the PRC 
or the Russian Federation is using, but we yet allow our allies 
and trade partners to use essentially that dirty supply. And 
it's hard to compete with something that's done on the back of 
slaves to be frank. So I think we need to have that level of 
accountability and transparency on all the materials that go 
into this energy transition and technological revolution.
    Ms. Stevens. Right. And it likely isn't just the awareness 
piece, which is so deeply critical, but it is guardrails. It is 
rules for the road. It is bringing along our allied partners. 
And certainly, the other piece to this is environmental 
practices as well because we're all living here on planet 
Earth.
    But let me just conclude by saying this. This is a very 
robust topic and one that we are going to continue to chew on 
as the U.S. Congress, and we certainly welcome your input. I 
will be submitting questions for the record. Recyclability and 
synthesizing remains a topic of interest.
    And with that, Mr. Chair, I yield back.
    Chairman Lucas. The gentlelady yields back.
    The Chair recognizes the gentleman from Texas, Mr. Weber, 
for five minutes for questions.
    Mr. Weber. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    Mr. Peay, in your testimony, you raised the alarming fact 
that out of the 50 critical minerals that the United States has 
identified, we rely on foreign nations for more than 50 percent 
of our requirements for 31 of those minerals. Perhaps more 
alarming is that we rely entirely on foreign nations for 
another dozen or so. That leaves about roughly seven critical 
minerals that the United States is able to, quote, ``adequately 
produced domestically,'' end quote. Can you tell--can you list 
those seven minerals for us? Can you tell us what they are?
    Mr. Peay. I'll have to--I don't have that off the top my 
head, but I can get that for you.
    Mr. Weber. OK. Please do get that for us because we need to 
be working on that.
    And you're aware that--and we need a lot of permit 
regulations that need to be changed so that if we want to have 
a mine that, I don't know, mines some of those minerals, in 
some--in another hearing yesterday, I literally said that 
sometimes it takes longer to get the permit than it does to 
build the actual facility that's going to mine whatever that 
is, and it shouldn't be that way.
    So given--I'm staying with you, Mr. Peay. So given that 
the--and I hope you'll stay with me. So given that the United 
States produces energy more efficiently, cleaner, and safer 
than any other nation, I'm inclined to believe that we can do 
the same with critical mineral and processing. How do you 
recommend Congress working with the DOE and EPA (Environmental 
Protection Agency) to cut the red tape to get past those 
permitting problems and actually for our domestic mining 
industry to grow, which would lead us to a more--a secure 
supply chain that we all need? Your thoughts?
    Mr. Peay. Yes, so you're absolutely right that domestic 
mining, the permitting takes an incredible amount of time. It 
takes a long time to prove a resource. We can do better than 
that, and we need to develop the technologies for what the 
future of mining will look like where we can do it quicker, 
more surgical in pulling up the ores that we need. So we need 
to improve our drilling technology, our in situ extraction 
technology, our mapping of the subsurface and find and 
characterize where the minerals are so that we can be laser 
focused on how we pull it up.
    I don't have recommendations on the legislative changes to 
make on permitting. That is kind of out of my purview.
    Mr. Weber. But you would agree the permitting system is 
broken?
    Mr. Peay. I would agree it takes way too long and is an 
impediment.
    Mr. Weber. Mr. Caers, would you also agree that the 
permitting system is broken?
    Dr. Caers. That's not within my purview of understanding. 
Sorry.
    Mr. Weber. OK. Well, stick around. We'll learn you some.
    Mr. Horn, how about you?
    Mr. Horn. I would say it absolutely needs reform, 
significant reform if we want to meet any of our environmental 
protection and manufacturing goals.
    Mr. Weber. Dr. Mulvaney?
    Dr. Mulvaney. I think that there could be improvements in 
the permitting reform, but GAO reports that the No. 1 reason 
for mine delays is because of insufficient mine plans and 
insufficient information in those mine plans or major changes 
to mining plans, so maybe, coupled with better science and 
understanding of that subsurface, maybe people proposing those 
developments would have a better idea of what their actual plan 
would be, and that would actually help new projects move----
    Mr. Weber. You think there could be problems with 
permitting? What did you think about my statement that 
sometimes it takes longer to get a permit than it does to 
actually build a facility?
    Dr. Mulvaney. That is--mining is a very disruptive 
activity, so sometimes projects take a long time because they 
have substantial impacts. They need to reach out to Native 
American tribes, for example, and get, you know, consultation. 
There's a lot of stakeholders involved. So, yes, I think things 
can certainly be done faster. There's interagency coordination 
that could be improved. I think that that was also a thing that 
the GAO reported. But yes----
    Mr. Weber. So that needs to be our focus.
    Dr. Mulvaney [continuing]. I hear your sentiment. I 
appreciate----
    Mr. Weber. Yes.
    Dr. Mulvaney [continuing]. That sentiment that is taking 
too long. I'm not sure----
    Mr. Weber. Right.
    Dr. Mulvaney [continuing]. National Environmental Policy 
Act permitting, I'm not sure that's the major problem.
    Mr. Weber. Is it--I'm trying to get my glasses focused. Is 
it Baroody? Is that how you say it?
    Mr. Baroody. Baroody.
    Mr. Weber. Baroody was my next guess. What--how about you?
    Mr. Baroody. I think it does need some reform. For example, 
look how long it takes to permit a nuclear reactor, much more 
time to do that than it does to build one. And now we're going 
to small modular reactors. We need to look at that very closely 
because they can be, you know, a very--a panacea to help, you 
know, small--bring nuclear reactors to into--into service that 
can be small and portable and----
    Mr. Weber. OK.
    Mr. Baroody [continuing]. Things of that nature. So I think 
there is a reform necessary in my opinion.
    Mr. Weber. All right. Well, let the record show that at 
least three out of five think that there's a problem. Isn't 
that a majority?
    So, Mr. Chairman, I yield back.
    Chairman Lucas. By Texas math.
    The gentleman--I thank the gentleman.
    And the Chair now recognizes the gentleman from New York, 
Mr. Bowman, for five minutes for questions.
    Mr. Bowman. Thank you so much, Mr. Chairman.
    My first question is to Mr. Peay. In 2022, the White House 
implemented the Justice40 Initiative to Executive Order 14008, 
which mandates that 40 percent of benefits should flow to 
disadvantaged communities. How's the DOE ensuring that the 
goals of the Justice40 Initiative are adhered to as extraction 
ramps up around the country?
    Mr. Peay. Thank you for your question. So we've embedded 
this throughout the Department. We have people working on this 
both from our office that reports to the Secretary, but also 
all the way down to our program offices. We have individuals on 
the team that are focused on our community benefit plans and 
the Justice40 Initiative. And all of our funding--well, nearly 
all of our funding opportunities and awards that go out require 
a community benefits plan, and we've also been doing direct 
engagement with communities now. An example is when you look at 
some of the DAC (direct air capture) hubs and hydrogen hubs, 
there's extensive community engagement that went into those 
awards. And so it's deeply embedded, and then we're tracking 
and reporting up, you know, all of our qualified programs.
    Mr. Bowman. What have been some of the challenges you've 
faced as you sought to embed the Justice40 Initiative in the 
work that you're doing at the DOE?
    Mr. Peay. Yes, I think--I mean, there's been several 
challenges, some that is just as we're looking at ensuring that 
we're meeting some of these different requirements. Some of the 
work we do is inherently lab-based, and so ensuring that we're 
figuring out which ones are qualified programs and what is not. 
There's been a lot of learning and getting the resources that 
we didn't have. We didn't have people trained or experienced in 
kind of these community outreach programs, and so we've had to 
hire new staff and train current staff on how to do that and 
engage with communities better. So those have been some of the 
challenges.
    Mr. Bowman. Thank you. Mr. Baroody, in your testimony, you 
mentioned that K-Tech has been working on ore recycling 
operations in South Africa, a place that has been marred by 
human rights abuses and environmental contamination in mining 
industries. How can we ensure that all companies operating 
internationally in places like South Africa reverse this trend 
moving forward?
    Mr. Baroody. Well, the company that's doing the work in 
South Africa, Rainbow Rare Earths, has just put out an ethical 
statement about that very issue that you just mentioned, and 
they are going to take every step necessary to make sure that 
everybody is treated equally, that the employment is--the 
employees are hired regardless of background or sex or anything 
like that. And so they're doing their job, I think, in South 
Africa to help that situation along.
    Mr. Bowman. Thank you. This next question is to anyone who 
wants to respond. I introduced a bill called the Green New Deal 
for Public Schools where we highlight the need for clean energy 
in schools across the country. The critical materials 
assessment report by the DOE identifies copper, platinum, 
aluminum, and other minerals are essential--as essential for 
clean energy technologies. How can we ensure that we prioritize 
international collaboration on the materials that we need most 
for clean energy? Yes, please.
    Dr. Caers. Yes, I think international collaboration and 
particularly with Australia is very important, and our 
Australian allies are also struggling, as you know, with not 
just the mining, but also the processing of materials which 
gets shipped to China.
    The second I would mention is Africa. Even though in the 
DRC (Democratic Republic of Congo), it's a very challenging 
situation, I think it's a good opportunity now for the United 
States to engage with the DRC, and actually, in Stanford, 
Material-X, we've been starting to do that as well, and that 
could just start from education and showing our goodwill to 
kids there. And, for example, we are funding tens of 
scholarships for female students in the DRC and Zambia, and 
those things go a very long way. And I think the United States 
can play a very important role there.
    Mr. Bowman. All right. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I yield 
back.
    Chairman Lucas. The gentleman yields back. The Chair 
recognizes the cardinal from Tennessee, Mr. Fleischmann, for 
five minutes.
    Mr. Fleischmann. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and I thank the 
distinguished panel and the discussion today.
    The distinguished Chairman referred me as the cardinal. I 
am the Chair on Appropriations, the Energy and Water 
Subcommittee, which funds all the wonderful work that our 
National Labs do, DOE does, and the like, so I come to this 
hearing with a strong support for our National Labs. I am the 
Republican Chair of the National Labs Caucus. I work with my 
colleagues on the other side of the aisle on that, I think 
they're our national treasures.
    If I may, may be a bit parochial, my great State of 
Tennessee, as well as numerous other Appalachian States, have 
suffered substantial--or actually have substantial 
unconventional sources of rare earths and other critical 
minerals in the form of mine wastes, mineral sands, and other 
streams. To the panel, how can we leverage these as national 
assets?
    Mr. Horn. Thank you, Congressman. I think you--you bring up 
a very good point in terms of, I would say, two topics, one, 
the successful commercialization of the great work that labs 
such as Oak Ridge and others that--are doing in the innovation 
space, and then also the, I would say, mobilization of material 
recovery as a part of renovation of a lot of these metal dumps 
and waste piles.
    So what is, I think, not really understood is that there is 
technology that does currently exist that actually can 
economically transform waste tailings piles into valuable 
battery materials and rare earths. We have a partner that's in 
the process of building out a project that does it in Missouri 
that essentially takes some of the highest grade tailings from, 
you know, a couple hundred years of ore mining and production. 
It's not as far away as people think. You know, in that 
particular example, that was an Oak Ridge technology that is 
now in the process being commercialized.
    We see, for obvious reasons, significant interest in the 
investors that are looking in this sector, understanding, I 
think, that we're really talking about something that has 
minimal downside. You're cleaning up areas that need that 
renovation, and at the same time, you're optimizing some of the 
key sources that would reduce in some of these cases such as 
dysprosium and terbium, our reliance on China to nothing, 
right? We would be totally self-sufficient and an actual 
exporter. So I think we need to prioritize truly 
commercializing the right technologies because I think we're on 
the wave of an innovation revolution, should we do so 
appropriately.
    Mr. Fleischmann. Thank you, sir. I so appreciate your 
answer to that question. It's spot on.
    Would anybody else like to weigh in? I do have another 
question. Yes, please, gentlemen. All of y'all.
    Mr. Peay. I would just say quickly, so this is right in our 
space that our program does on developing these unconventional 
feedstocks. Early--earlier this month, I was in West Virginia 
at one of our pilot facilities where we're doing this with acid 
mine drainage. I've also been in North Dakota where we're doing 
this with coal lignite. And through the infrastructure law we 
have, we're going to do this at commercial scale with $140 
million commercial-level project.
    Mr. Fleischmann. Thank you, sir. And, Doctor?
    Dr. Mulvaney. I'll just add that one of my--my 
understanding, one of the challenges with using tailings and 
things like that is characterizing what's actually in each 
tailings pile. There's a lot of heterogeneity, so more research 
to characterize those tailings. What's in them and what could 
be extracted, I think, would be helpful.
    Mr. Fleischmann. Thank you, sir.
    A follow up question on recycling, spent magnets and other 
sources offer huge opportunities from which we can mine rare 
earths. How could the government help encourage more recycling 
and reuse of rare earths? And what do you see as the biggest 
R&D challenges to recycling and the reuse of spent magnets?
    Dr. Mulvaney. I'll start by saying I think Federal 
comprehensive waste electronical and equipment management 
standards, you know, we have a national takeback policy. We 
landfill a lot of copper, for example. We landfill or send to 
smelters materials that we can't recover and things like that. 
So, you know, closing the loop, first step is to try to collect 
those materials that would otherwise end up in waste flows 
because once something ends up in a landfill, the percentage is 
just too low to go back after it.
    Mr. Fleischmann. Thank you, sir. Well, it looks like I'm 
just about out of time. Again, gentlemen, thank you so much for 
a wonderful, comprehensive, informative hearing.
    And, Mr. Chairman, I yield back.
    Chairman Lucas. The gentleman yields back.
    The Chair now recognizes the gentlelady from North 
Carolina, Ms. Ross, for five minutes for her questions.
    Ms. Ross. Thank you, Chairman Lucas and Ranking Member 
Lofgren, for holding this extremely important hearing, and to 
all of our panelists for joining us today.
    The importance of the hearing cannot be understated as we 
work toward a clean energy future. In order to meet our goals, 
we must address the need for critical minerals and materials 
that help us produce that clean energy. The surge in demand for 
critical minerals and materials is estimated to increase 
between 400 and 600 percent in--up until 2040 to meet these 
goals. And in my home State of North Carolina, which has been a 
leader in solar energy and has the potential to lead the East 
Coast in offshore wind energy, this is crucial.
    My district is home to a robust workforce and educational 
institutions that are helping our Nation transition to clean 
energy, and I look forward to continuing to work with this 
Committee to support my constituents and the challenges of this 
transition.
    My first question is even more pedestrian than most of my 
colleagues' questions. What we have heard from the McKinsey 
report in February revealed that there are workforce shortages 
in mining. So even if we permit the mines, we build the mines, 
somebody's got to work in the mines, and that the number of 
mining engineering graduates in the United States has dropped 
precipitously.
    I represent NC State University, which is the land grant 
university that produces a lot of these engineers. But there's 
been a 39 percent reduction between 2016 and 2020, and a lot of 
the projections indicate that we'll likely not have the 
workforce supply, whether in mining, engineering, or other 
fields, to fulfill our national mineral needs.
    I'd like anyone on the panel to address how NSF, DOE, your 
institutions should invest resources to best address this 
workforce shortage? And whoever wants to start. Yes, Dr. Caers.
    Dr. Caers. Yes, that's an excellent question. At Stanford, 
you know, we don't have mining, and one of the reasons, of 
course, is mining isn't attractive to the current new students. 
But when you say we can do mining and revolutionize it with 
digital and AI, suddenly, there are tons of kids in my class 
that say we want to do mining. So I think it's not just looking 
at the stream that we currently have of mining engineers and 
mining engineering schools. It's also to tap into the new 
population of students who want to do cool stuff with 
digitization and AI and apply that to whatever they see because 
many of those students are disappointed when they go into 
commerce or they go into gaming and they have to do--apply 
their AI to really unnecessary things. So I think that's where 
we can make a big difference.
    Ms. Ross. Does anybody else have anything to add? Yes, Mr. 
Peay?
    Mr. Peay. Yes. So developing an educated and trained 
workforce is absolutely essential. So we talked about how we've 
offshored the supply chain, but when we did that, we also 
offshored our brainpower with that and all of our expertise. So 
this is something we have to do. We've started doing some of 
this already. You know, we have a university research program 
in our office, and so we've--this year, we had two awards under 
that, one to a minority-serving institution to look at geology, 
and then the other is looking at improving critical minerals 
from coal-based sources. But this is something we've got to 
address as well.
    Ms. Ross. Dr. Mulvaney, did you have anything to add? I do 
have another question. Or did somebody--Mr. Horn?
    Mr. Horn. Just very briefly, I would say it comes down to 
redefining what mining truly is. Right now, we're talking about 
mining that does cleanup, that empowers technological 
innovation. You know, it's not the same kind of mining when, 
you know, my great grandfather was a breaker boy in a coal 
mine, getting underpaid and basically dying of black lung. It's 
a very different story. It pays highly, and it's absolutely 
critical to everything we're doing on the technical side.
    Ms. Ross. OK. I'll submit my other questions for the 
record. But I also think it's important for us to invest in our 
community colleges because it's not just the people who do the 
cool AI or figure things out. It's sometimes the people who 
supervise the--that crew that's going to be out there. Thank 
you, and I yield back.
    Chairman Lucas. The gentlelady yields back.
    The Chair recognizes the gentleman from California, Mr. 
Issa, for five minutes for question.
    Mr. Issa. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    Mr. Horn, my colleague from California asked around the 
question of lithium in the Salton Sea. I just happen to be the 
Congressman contiguous to the Salton Sea. I'm--except during 
Santa Anas, my district is upwind of the pollution that comes 
off of that ever-drying body of sort of water. As it dries up, 
when there are Santa Anas, it's a tremendous pollution. So in 
my district, we have an odd situation. We want to mine because, 
at the same time as we're mining, we're eliminating an 
environmental waste. Many companies have already made 
significant investments. They believe that there is, in fact, 
usable quantities of lithium, and they're putting their money 
where their mouth is.
    Do you agree that that's the kind of thing, at a minimum, 
that we should find a way to encourage when it's a known 
pollutant, a known environmental problem, and the mining of it 
actually will cleanup that pollutant?
    Mr. Horn. Congressman, I would say absolutely. I think 
there's a misunderstanding when it comes to lithium production 
via DLE and other technology applications. So while we look at 
a variety of technical applications of brine sources, they're 
not all created equal, and it's really about matching the right 
technology with the right ppm content in the brine, right? So 
we have, you know, ppm projects that we're working on in the--
you know, Smackover region that are high in lithium. They 
require a separate kind of technology than what I believe could 
be used in Salton Sea and lower ppm bodies that I still think 
with the right technology could be highly economical.
    Mr. Issa. Well, you know, the late Sonny Bono spent most of 
his career trying to save the Salton Sea, and when I inherited 
the region, I, too, became concerned about a body of water 
that, as it dried up, wasn't just environmentally a problem for 
wildlife and in flyovers, but in fact is worth saving for other 
reasons.
    Back to the lithium, though, you said it's not a form of 
mining that we've known in the past, that realistically, is 
almost harvesting by comparison, not much different than taking 
salt out of the ocean. So my question to you, and it's not 
intended to be a political one, but I think it's important. 
California has mandated effectively lithium batteries because 
it's mandated EVs. At the same time, our Governor is in fact 
taxing mining. Is there a message there that you can figure out 
of why you would mandate something and then make it much more 
expensive at a time in which batteries are the single most 
determinate product for whether EV succeeds or not?
    Mr. Horn. I would say it's a--you know, from my 
understanding, a lack of understanding the connection, right? I 
assume positive intent. I don't try to guess----
    Mr. Issa. Right, nobody in their right mind would give you 
a subsidy to buy an EV car and then make the subsidy offset by 
artificially creating an increase in the price of the product.
    Mr. Horn. Yes, it's counterproductive and counter-logical, 
I think what there needs to be is a true understanding on how 
we get to end results and how we do it in the cleanest and 
safest and most socially protected manner possible, right? 
Because what you're talking about with the lithium example, I 
love it because we work in the DLE space, right? You're talking 
about water purification. You're talking about beneficiation of 
the actual environment, and that is the means that we're 
producing, in my opinion, a preferable product compared with 
slave labor done with open pit mining in Central Africa. I 
mean, it's just--there's no comparison. And I challenge anyone 
that believes in electrification to try and make the case that 
it's OK to do that on the back of child slaves.
    Mr. Issa. Let me ask a closing question for all the 
witnesses, and it's not intended to be rhetorical, or it's just 
intended to be a statement about the country we live in. Is 
there any major mining or any major country in the world that 
has better human rights, better work rights, or better 
environmental rights when it comes to how you mine than the 
United States? Or, to put it another way, aren't we the 
cleanest, best place to mine if what we're looking at is mine 
it here or mine it there? Either way, it's going to be mined?
    Mr. Horn. Absolutely. I mean, we've talked about the amount 
of time it takes to permit the cleanest mines in the world. You 
know, that is a consequence because we have the highest 
standards, flat out, in the world.
    Mr. Issa. Anyone else want--is there a controversial--
controversy here, or that's a--pretty much a given that we do 
it better and cleaner, and if we're going to have it done 
somewhere in the world other than United States, it will be 
less clean, it will be less environmentally fair, and it 
certainly will be less fair to its workers. Thank you, Mr. 
Chairman. I yield back.
    Chairman Lucas. The gentleman's time has expired.
    The Chair will now recognize the gentleman from Illinois, 
Mr. Sorensen, for five minutes for his questions.
    Mr. Sorensen. Good morning. I want to thank Chairman Lucas 
and Ranking Member Lofgren for convening this hearing and our 
witnesses for being present today.
    The Inflation Reduction Act focused many of its critical 
minerals provisions on tax credits, which are being implemented 
through the Department of Treasury. Guidance from Treasury on 
45X, the advanced manufacturing production tax credit, requires 
that--manufacturers to sell their unprocessed, high-purity 
aluminum to an unrelated third party before they can access the 
credit. I represent workers at Arconic in the Quad Cities of 
Illinois and Iowa who produce high-purity aluminum and shape it 
into aluminum sheets or plate before they sell it to a third 
party.
    Congress intended for a wide array of companies to qualify 
for 45X. However, Treasury's current guidance likely precludes 
one of the largest domestic manufacturers of high-purity 
aluminum from accessing the credit. Mr. Peay, how has the 
Treasury Department relied on the expertise of you and your 
colleagues at the Department of Energy as they work to 
implement these highly technical tax credits?
    Mr. Peay. Sir, this one is out of my purview, but I do know 
that there's technical assistance that goes on between DOE and 
Treasury.
    Mr. Sorensen. Thank you for that. Also in my district, we 
have an electric vehicle manufacturer Rivian in my district in 
Illinois. However, according to the company, the structure of 
the IRA does not allow the company to secure lithium 
specifically from South America because the lithium cannot be 
refined before it is imported. And so this does not allow the 
company the access to the IRA tax credits. It creates an 
immense cost and delays Rivian's path to profitability, which 
secures the 7,000 workers in my district their jobs.
    Mr. Peay, to you again, the intent of the IRA is to support 
the domestic renewable energy sector. But with limited access 
to refining capabilities in the United States, should Congress 
take action to allow companies to access IRA tax credits when 
they purchase critical minerals refined in an allied foreign 
country?
    Mr. Peay. So I know that's the intent of the tax credit. I 
can't comment on if there should be legislative changes or 
Congress changes to how it's implemented. I'd have to refer you 
to Treasury for a comment on that.
    Mr. Sorensen. Does anyone on our panel today find this 
troublesome?
    Mr. Horn. Congressman, I actually testified on this subject 
before another Committee relatively recently, and I think what 
it comes down to is proper oversight and implementation. These 
are difficult, complicated measures to actually enforce an 
impact, so I think that the way forward, which I think has been 
started and is in progress with this Administration, is to have 
central oversight from White House leadership, ensure that 
there's that proper level of coordination and implementation of 
a lot of these executive and legislative actions. So I think 
what it really comes down to is further empowerment of some of 
the White House coordinating entities in terms of ensuring 
proper interagency collaboration and implementation.
    Mr. Sorensen. Do you think that there's more work that 
Congress should be doing on that?
    Mr. Horn. I--my recommendation would be continued 
encouragement of the White House to enable that level of 
coordination and oversight related to that as well, too. I 
believe that the White House desires and is attempting to do 
that. Any way that they can be supported in that implementation 
by the Congress, I think, would be beneficial for all.
    Mr. Sorensen. In my last minute to you, Dr. Mulvaney, I 
serve as the Ranking Member on our Committee's Space and 
Aeronautics Subcommittee, I've heard from aerospace 
stakeholders in my district that some companies are turning to 
Europe for R&D dollars due to the funding landscape here in the 
United States. These dollars come with requirements that some 
of the work be done in that country providing the funding. Have 
you found this to be a problem in the critical mineral sector?
    Dr. Mulvaney. I understand it is, and I think my colleague 
might be able to answer that even a little more clearly if 
that's OK.
    Mr. Sorensen. Correct.
    Dr. Mulvaney. Do you mind speaking to that, Jef?
    Dr. Caers. Well, yes, so as I mentioned in my statement, 
all of our funding has come from foreign governments or--not 
from companies or institutions because the United States is not 
investing in this particular area of mineral exploration. And I 
think what we have done with the group is also look at this as, 
you know, Americans, right? Which country should we be 
collaborating with, and which companies should we be 
collaborating with? And we've clearly said in our group, there 
are companies and countries we will just not collaborate with. 
But it will be better for the United States to support much 
more in the mineral exploration from inside so groups like 
myself don't have to go outside the country to get funding.
    Mr. Sorensen. Let's make it in America.
    Dr. Caers. Yes.
    Mr. Sorensen. Thank you all. I yield back.
    Mr. Williams [presiding]. Thank you. Mr. Obernolte from 
California is recognized for five minutes.
    Mr. Obernolte. Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. Thank you to 
all of our witnesses on this really critically important topic.
    Mr. Peay, I wanted to start with you if I could look around 
Max's big head. So you said something in your testimony that I 
thought was really important. You said that the lack of 
processing and refining often poses a greater threat than the 
actual supply of critical minerals themselves, and I've 
absolutely found that to be true. In my district is the 
Mountain Pass rare earth mine, which is the only active rare 
earth mining and processing facility in not only the United 
States but North America right now. So they really fill a 
critically important niche in our national security and our 
access to critical minerals.
    But I can tell you--and also the--to your point, they've 
developed an incredibly innovative technique for processing the 
rare earth materials onsite rather than transporting them and 
processing them elsewhere, which I think is, you know, really 
admirable. But in my time in Congress, it seems like every year 
something comes up with that mine having trouble with sometimes 
it's Federal agencies, sometimes it's State agencies, sometimes 
it's local agencies, sometimes it's a permitting problem, 
sometimes it's a problem with emissions. And it's just--they 
struggle every single year, and most of those impediments are 
government-caused. What can the Department do to help companies 
like MP Materials that owns that mine keep that kind of mining 
and processing facility here and--the capability here in the 
United States?
    Mr. Peay. Yes, so Mountain Pass, is a very important 
resource for us, and to your point, ships nearly all of its 
rare earths to China. So what we need to do is focus on 
expanding the U.S. supply base and doing that through 
traditional mining, through improving our traditional mining 
through things like unconventional feedstocks, recycling, 
having more secure international partners. And then all the 
projects that DOE is working on throughout the supply chain, 
it's--you know, it's a private-public partnership when we do 
these things, and moving things to commercialization as quickly 
as possible is really key.
    Mr. Obernolte. I hope we can all keep working together on 
that. It's a real problem.
    Also, I next wanted to ask the whole panel a question that 
has really been weighing on my mind and that's very pertinent 
to this topic of critical minerals because so many of the 
critical minerals now are going into the supply chain for 
electric vehicles. And we started with a problem with supply 
with electric vehicles. We had a Natural Resources Committee 
hearing last year in which the testimony was we'd need to 
quadruple worldwide copper production to convert the current 
year's manufacture run of vehicles to all electric.
    And now, as time goes on, it becomes clear that we have a 
problem with greenhouse gas emissions because if you include 
the emissions of mining, the materials that go into the motors 
and the batteries, and the emissions that are involved in 
recycling within their lives, you know, it's not a slam dunk 
that EVs are cleaner. It depends on how much you use them. So, 
you know, really, it's gotten people thinking about what we can 
do to improve that. So give me some hope here. Is technology 
going to provide us with a solution to that? Or should we be 
looking at other technologies such as hydrogen? You know, what 
does the supply chain look like there?
    Mr. Horn. Congressman, I think it's really about looking at 
holistic intent and implementation once again. Kind of just to 
go back to your previous question about MP, I think there's a 
lack in follow-through in terms of permitting tied to Federal 
awards of financing, right? I think that, you know, MP has been 
the subject of multiple DPA awards. Why would there not be 
mandated permitting tied to that for implementation? Similarly, 
with technological implementation into the sector--and I don't 
think it's as simple as someone would try to portray it as 
simply EV-related. It's really more about technological 
innovation across the board because these elements are just as 
critical in defense and technology implementation across the 
board.
    But what it really takes is essentially doubling down on 
the right technologies. But we have to look at technologies not 
as science projects, but as options to commercialize and 
outcompete our competitors and to provide a better series of 
products because that's currently what we have. That's what 
we're looking to invest in with GreenMet and other companies 
that we're working with. That's the way forward.
    Mr. Obernolte. Right. Thank you. Well, in my remaining 
seconds here, let me just point out that the urgency of 
onshoring the production of those materials, particularly as it 
concerns solutions like electric vehicles where we're trying to 
reduce greenhouse gas emissions because we can control the 
emissions of mining and processing that occurs here. If we 
allow the offshoring of that production, we are just also 
offshoring those emissions, and we have no control over how 
our--the emissions that do occur, and so that adds urgency to 
the testimony that we've received tonight--today.
    But I want to thank you very much for your service and your 
testimony here, and I yield back, Mr. Chairman.
    Mr. Williams. Ms. Salinas is recognized for five minutes.
    Ms. Salinas. Thank you, and thank you to the Chairman and 
the Ranking Member for holding today's hearing and to our 
witnesses for participating.
    Mr. Peay, you addressed the Department's work to develop 
alternative technologies to reduce our dependence on critical 
minerals, and we had a robust conversation today. ESS, a 
company based in my district, received such support from ARPA-E 
(Advanced Research Projects Agency--Energy) over 10 years ago 
and is now a reliable provider of large-scale iron flow 
batteries for grid storage applications. Do we have the right 
Federal incentives in place to balance the need for ongoing R&D 
with the need to accelerate adoption of existing technologies 
that potentially have the capacity to reduce future dependence 
on critical minerals?
    Mr. Peay. Yes, so that valley of death between research and 
commercialization is always a major concern. One of the really 
exciting things about the infrastructure bill funding is the 
fact that we're bridging a lot of that. I mean, we've been 
doing work now for 10 years on getting rare earth elements out 
of these unconventional feedstocks, and that started just in 
the lab, and then we've had pilot projects. But now with the 
infrastructure law, we're going to be doing this at commercial 
scale, and so having the funding to bring public and private 
partners together and get projects to commercialization really 
is key.
    Ms. Salinas. Thank you. And when DOE supports the R&D 
behind such technologies, are there additional tools outside of 
what we've been seeing in the Inflation Reduction Act to help 
private industry bridge that gap from lab to commercial 
viability? So what more can we be doing outside of what the 
Inflation Reduction Act is proposing?
    Mr. Peay. Yes, so there was one section in the bill that I 
think would be good to get funded, which is 40210, critical 
minerals mining and recycling research. And so that was 
authorized but not appropriated in the infrastructure law, and 
so we think that is important. And then what more to do, and 
I've talked about this already, but I'll say that, again, is 
really investing in--so we know, whether we do recycling or 
unconventional feedstocks or international imports, that we 
still need to have a domestic mining capability, and so 
investing in ways to improve it, to do it better, do it 
cleaner, safer, less impact, that is really key. And having 
research here at DOE and with partners at USGS is really key.
    Ms. Salinas. Thank you. And this is for the panel. As 
several of you have already mentioned, China dominates 
processing for many critical minerals, and some materials are 
heavily concentrated in few countries. I serve on the 
congressional Executive Commission on China, where we recently 
held a hearing on China-dominated cobalt supply chain, and I'm 
worried that the lack of U.S. involvement from companies, we 
really have no domestic cobalt refining capacity and no U.S. 
mining companies operating in the DRC. And it really limits our 
ability to influence both labor and environmental standards of 
these operations. How can we improve public-private 
collaboration to encourage U.S. industry to participate 
actively across the entire supply chain for these materials? 
And anyone who wishes to answer.
    Dr. Mulvaney. I can start. Setting standards like recycled 
content standards, I think, could help. There was recent 
research out of the University of California Davis that found, 
for cobalt, a realistic recycled content requirement could be 
11 to 12 percent cobalt, 7 to 8 percent lithium, or 10 to 12 
percent nickel by 2030. So that would--just know--just setting 
recycled content standards sends a signal to the market and 
developers of recycling industries to know that there is a 
potential home for the materials that they're recovering and 
making.
    Ms. Salinas. Thank you.
    Dr. Mulvaney. So it's one place to start.
    Ms. Salinas. Thank you. Yes, Dr. Caers.
    Dr. Caers. Yes. So specifically to cobalt, cobalt is often 
an element that co-occurs with other things, right? It's not 
copper, zinc, and things like that. I think that Alaska in 
particular is a good territory to think about that. There's a 
lot of zinc mining going on. That means there's a lot of 
tailings available, and there's very likely also a lot of 
cobalt in these tailings and copper. And, as my colleague said, 
one of the difficulties with that is still the characterization 
of that material.
    The second thing that I can say is that if we are doing 
that, we're going into the tailings, why not just look at the 
waste stream itself today, right? So instead of, say, dealing 
with the waste that's already been generated, let's deal with 
the waste that we're generating today, and I think there's a 
lot of opportunities there.
    Ms. Salinas. Thank you again to the panel. I yield back.
    Mr. Williams. Thank you. The Chair recognizes Mr. Babin 
from Texas for five minutes.
    Mr. Babin. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
    Mr. Horn, as we've all heard today, rare earth and critical 
materials are an important part not only of consumer products, 
but also defense products such as missile guidance systems and 
aircraft engines. And China uses its supply chain dominance as 
geopolitical leverage, even threatening embargoes against the 
United States and other Western nations.
    The United States identified this vulnerability decades ago 
and is in the process of shoring up rare earth supply chains, 
including building processing facilities in my home State of 
Texas and my neighboring State, Oklahoma. According to one of 
the leading cyber forensic firms in the world, Mandiant, the 
Chinese Communist Party has engaged in an influence campaign 
known as DRAGONBRIDGE, comprising a network of thousands of 
inauthentic accounts across numerous social media platforms, 
websites, and forums that have promoted various narratives in 
support of political interests of the People's Republic of 
China. Mandiant reported that one of these campaigns is 
specifically directed at the United States' rare earth industry 
and intended to prevent any competition to the Chinese 
Communist Party near monopoly on these rare earth elements and 
critical minerals.
    Specifically, Mandiant found evidence that DRAGONBRIDGE 
targeted two projects, those that I mentioned in Texas and 
Oklahoma, that could alleviate dependence on China. This 
astroturfing campaign conducted by the Chinese Communist Party 
manufactured environmental concerns and expressed opposition to 
the development of the projects. It looked like real stuff, but 
not.
    We've seen this tactic before because, in 2018, this 
Committee produced a report highlighting exactly how Russia 
used similar tactics to undermine U.S. natural gas production. 
U.S. mineral extraction and processing regulations and safety 
practices far exceed China's. Furthermore, Chinese-backed 
companies are known to use child and forced labor. What impact 
would further limitations on U.S. production spurred by Chinese 
Communist Party propaganda have on the United States' national 
security and economic competitiveness? And have we seen any 
elements of these Chinese Party influence campaigns seep into 
U.S. regulatory policy? Very briefly, if you can.
    Mr. Horn. I'll try to answer that quickly, Congressman.
    Mr. Babin. Yes, sir.
    Mr. Horn. So, you know, I guess to first state it really 
comes down to a comprehensive look at what's going on. 
DRAGONBRIDGE is real, and it's the obvious solution. My 
previous career as a Green Beret, I did a lot of analysis on 
enemy use of what they have in terms of overall effect. The 
Chinese have realized very effectively that they can use their 
financial resources to influence, impact just about anything. 
And so DRAGONBRIDGE is an example of how they have done very 
adeptly mobilization of resources that can stop U.S. projects.
    I can't speak to you the level that they've influenced the 
U.S. Government. I know that they have tried in every way 
possible to do so in every other aspect of our society. And I 
can say that if we do not correct this, not only is this a 
national security threat, it's a big boon to child slavery and 
strip mining on the other side of the planet that cannot be 
forgotten as we look at this electrification focus.
    Mr. Babin. Amen. Thank you very much.
    Dr. Mulvaney, a lot of conversation today is rightly 
focused on how we can bolster U.S. critical material supply 
chains. What are the U.S. public and private sectors doing to 
research alternatives to rare or costly critical minerals 
rather than trying to increase production? And are there 
specific research programs underway to identify more abundant 
or cost-effective alternatives to these materials?
    Dr. Mulvaney. I think the lithium-ion battery spaces may be 
a place where we're starting to see some of that, and some of 
it's in research and development. Sodium-ion batteries, for 
example, may offer partial solution to replacing some of the 
lithium-ion batteries. Even in the industry itself, we've seen 
a big shift from lithium-ion batteries with cobalt and 
manganese and nickel to batteries that don't contain any of 
those materials or much lower quantities. So----
    Mr. Babin. OK, thank you. Back to Mr. Horn, China employs a 
command economy with state-controlled industrial policy. Here 
in the United States our strength is our vibrant and innovative 
private sector. What is the private sector doing in terms of 
R&D on critical material mining not directed by the Federal 
Government? And what advantages does private sector R&D have 
over state-directed R&D?
    Mr. Horn. I would advocate that the combination is the most 
effective. However, in my opinion--and obviously, I'm biased 
because I'm speaking from a private perspective--I think that 
private R&D is really what drives that commercialization. But I 
think Federal can assist that and increase it. I think what we 
once again really need to look at is doubling down on the right 
technologies that can truly be commercialized to actually 
outcompete the Chinese because I absolutely believe that we 
can. I believe we have several we're working on. We'll create a 
premium product and do it in a more cost-efficient and 
environmentally protected manner.
    Mr. Babin. Thank you. Thank you for your service, too.
    I have another one, but I'm out of time, so I yield back. 
Thank you.
    Mr. Williams. Mrs. Foushee is recognized for five minutes.
    Mrs. Foushee. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and to all the 
witnesses for appearing before us today.
    I am proud that North Carolina and my district, North 
Carolina's 4th, are national leaders in research and 
development and in producing clean energy technologies like 
solar-powered energy. We are creating clean jobs and a clean 
energy ecosystem as we strive to meet the Biden 
Administration's goal set forward to transition our energy 
infrastructure and our economy toward a cleaner future away 
from reliance on fossil fuels.
    Last September, Secretary Yellen visited my district in 
Durham and in Chapel Hill to highlight the promise of solar and 
renewable energy and how Federal investments that we're making 
today will pave the way toward a more sustainable and 
prosperous future. And earlier this year, I joined President 
Biden in my district on his Investing in America tour, where 
Wolfspeed, a semiconductor manufacturer, announced the largest 
investment in manufacturing in North Carolina history. And 
instead of relying on minerals made overseas, we are bolstering 
our domestic supply chain in chips that will be made in my 
district that will be used to power electric vehicles and 
batteries that will be produced in North Carolina just down the 
road from my district at VinVast, which is an auto 
manufacturer.
    RTI, an independent nonprofit research institute 
headquartered in my district, is a partner of multiple offices 
within DOE, including yours, Mr. Peay, DOE's Office of Fossil 
Energy and Carbon Management. RTI's Energy Division is helping 
to lead the way in R&D and in demonstration of innovative 
process technologies in the areas of gas separations, syngas 
processing, catalysis, CO2 capture and utilization, 
and biomass conversion. I'm hopeful and inspired by their work 
that, through advancements in science, we can help promote 
national and worldwide goals of reliable, sustainable, and 
economically viable energy supplies beyond fossil fuels.
    So, Mr. Peay, can you talk about other leading-edge 
research priorities of DOE and your office that we in Congress 
and on the Science Committee should be learning more about?
    Mr. Peay. Yes, so our carbon management program, as you 
mentioned, is critically important. I want to talk about 
another thing we're doing, though, that is a priority for 
myself and for my boss, which is our work on methane mitigation 
and our methane mitigation technologies. And there's a White 
House initiative and task force around methane and reducing 
methane. But something we're doing right now is around creating 
a framework for consistency on how we are measuring methane and 
reporting it and verifying it. And we're working with 
international partners on that initiative.
    So it is very important that we address methane emissions 
and--from the oil and gas sector and that we do it quickly. 
It's where we can make the biggest impact in really the 
shortest amount of time, and we're really encouraged with the 
work in that area.
    Mrs. Foushee. Thank you for that.
    Dr. Mulvaney, in your testimony you mentioned utilizing the 
purchasing power of the Federal Government to help set producer 
standards to aid in recovering critical materials and minerals. 
Can you please expand on this? And can you also describe the 
types of requirements that could be tailored to improve 
industry design standards?
    Dr. Mulvaney. Sure. The Environmental Protection Agency 
recommends the EPEAT (Electronic Product Environmental 
Assessment Tool) standard be used for Federal procurement of 
computers, for example. And recently, we, as part of a joint 
committee, established an ultra-low carbon solar standard, 
which requires that manufacturers of polysilicon and some of 
the supply chain pieces that go into solar panels are made in a 
sustainable way with very low carbon. That, I think, helps with 
the domestic production issue because a lot of the solar supply 
chain today is in China and is in very coal-intensive 
electricity grids.
    So, you know, expanding the types of products that are 
purchased through the EPEAT programs, I think, would be a good 
example of how the Federal purchasing could drive more domestic 
manufacturing and build a domestic supply chain.
    Mrs. Foushee. Thank you. That's my time, Mr. Chair. I yield 
back.
    Mr. Williams. The Chair recognizes Mr. Franklin from 
Florida for five minutes.
    Mr. Franklin. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    Mr. Williams. Sir.
    Mr. Franklin. Mr. Baroody, K-Tech has a long history of 
partnering with local universities who enter into cooperative 
agreements with National Labs like the Pacific Northwest 
National Laboratory (PNNL). In your experience, what are some 
of the benefits of working with both the leading National Labs 
such as PNNL and universities such as Florida Polytechnic 
University?
    Mr. Baroody. Thank you for the question. They have good 
staffs that can help us work because we're a small company, and 
we have a limited staff. So they can take the workload off of 
us for a lot of things that they do well, and that we can help 
them and direct them in the way that we think can be most 
efficient for the use of their people.
    And we are actually submitting, together with the Florida 
Institute of Phosphate Research (FIPR) and the Pacific 
Northwest National Laboratory, a bid to the Department of 
Energy to extract rare earths from phosphoric acid sludges, 
which is another place where you can find a lot of rare earth 
materials. And the sludges are a byproduct of the phosphoric 
acid refining process, and they tend to be waste products.
    And one of the things I always wanted to say is that, how 
do you reduce mining? Well, use the products that are already 
there like the phosphogypsum that we're doing--dealing with in 
South Africa. We're going to clean that up, by the way, and the 
gypsum is going to be created as a result of taking the rare 
earths out and the fluoride out. It's going to be sold to third 
parties. It's going to be able to be used for wallboards. It's 
going to be able to be used for agricultural purposes and road 
base materials. So that's a that's another way that things can 
be done effectively.
    Mr. Franklin. Well, I hope you're successful in that 
project with phosphogypsum because, obviously, we have a lot of 
that in Florida, and if we can stabilize that material and also 
turn it into a good, that would be a huge win-win, so I 
appreciate the efforts there.
    With--mentioning the Florida Institute of--Florida 
Industrial and Phosphate Research Institute, FIPR, Dr. Patrick 
Zhang there has said that we could satisfy nearly 50 percent of 
the U.S. demand for many of the critical rare elements--or rare 
earth elements just from Florida alone. That's a bold 
statement. If he's even directionally accurate to any degree, 
that would be wonderful news, and because I also know there's a 
lot of smart people in other places working on things like 
that. Do you share his optimism?
    Mr. Baroody. Well, I do in a way. We have to do the test 
work to make sure it works and it's economical. I think that's 
the key behind a lot of this research is, is it economical?
    Mr. Franklin. Right.
    Mr. Baroody. Because if it isn't economical, then there's 
no sense in doing it. And you have to be careful about how--you 
know, you're not going to create a bigger mess after you've 
done this than you started with. But I think he's got a good 
idea. I mean, there's--the gypsum in Florida, there's a billion 
tons of gypsum and 24 stacks in central Florida.
    Mr. Franklin. Right.
    Mr. Baroody. And so that's a problem for the long term. Now 
it's somewhat mildly radioactive, so that has to be dealt with, 
too. But I think there's ways to go about doing that, and the 
rare earths in the gypsum in Florida is not quite the same as 
it is in South Africa or Brazil because they come from 
different deposits that were mined. They're igneous deposits in 
South Africa and Brazil. The deposits that were mined for 
phosphate in Florida and many other places in the world like 
Morocco and Saudi Arabia are from sedimentary deposits where 
the rare earths don't tend to concentrate as much in the gypsum 
and there's not as much in the raw ore to start with. So--but 
there's good potential there, I think, for that.
    Mr. Franklin. OK.
    Mr. Baroody. And I can raise one other point? There's 
fluoride in the gypsum stacks in Florida. It's very acidic. 
It's about 1 percent fluoride saturated through all of that 
billion tons of gypsum. The United States is almost totally 
dependent on imports of fluoride for use in making hydrofluoric 
acid and the derivatives of hydrofluoric acid.
    If you can take the--we have a process at Technologies that 
has been patented, and we--we're promoting it with several 
companies that we can take the fluoride out of the pond water, 
make hydrofluoric acid and a silica product that can be 
utilized in tire manufacturing and things of that nature, and I 
think that needs to be looked at, too, as well.
    Mr. Franklin. OK.
    Mr. Baroody. So, anyway, I just wanted to bring that up.
    Mr. Franklin. Great. And thank you, Mr. Chairman. I have 
other questions I'll submit for the record, but I yield back.
    Mr. Williams. Thank you. The Chair recognizes Ms. Lee for 
five minutes.
    Ms. Lee. Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you to all of our 
witnesses for your time and expertise on this critical area of 
research of resource development.
    The history of mining in the Pittsburgh region is 
intertwined with the economic development that fueled our 
Nation's growth. Needless to say, such growth came at a 
significant cost to the environment and the communities that 
call this region home. We've come to a time of reckoning where 
we have to realize and adapt to the fact that the resources we 
try to extract from the earth can't mean we send communities to 
an early grave.
    Critical minerals are essential to U.S. energy independence 
and economic growth. They're vital components in clean energy 
technology such as solar panels, wind turbines, electric 
vehicles, and transmission systems. What's more critical is 
that we do all in our power to serve, protect, and empower 
people, the human element, when considering how to shape our 
regulatory environment.
    A few weeks ago, before the--or, excuse me, the 
Thanksgiving holiday, I and my colleagues here voted to avoid a 
government shutdown. Since we resumed work, it seems that 
appropriations bills are no longer a priority in 2023, which is 
sad, seeing that the NSF, through the CHIPS and Science Act of 
2022, has been authorized to support research and development 
to advance critical minerals mining strategies and technologies 
but has not been appropriated any funding to process with such 
work. Therefore, it's reducing the amount of mining needed 
through improvements in battery technology, second-life 
applications for vehicle batteries and better recycling is key 
to reducing harm. In my State of Pennsylvania, the Center for 
Critical Minerals at Penn State is working to identify 
innovative ways to extract these valuable materials in more 
sustainable ways from an abundant source of pollution in our 
State, coal waste.
    And in light of ongoing conflicts and humanitarian crises 
around the world, I would be remiss to highlight how our demand 
for these critical minerals that are found abundantly and 
extracted in nations like Congo often result in child and 
exploitative labor, environmental abuses, and safety risk. 
While many of our duties are in service to our own constituents 
here domestically, we can't forget that the ramifications of 
our actions have global consequences. We must remain thoughtful 
and vigilant.
    Dr. Mulvaney, what are the technological gaps that 
currently exists that limit mineral extraction from waste 
materials and corresponding assessment of quality and quantity 
of those recycled materials?
    Dr. Mulvaney. I think, as we said earlier, the 
characterization of what's actually in the waste, this is 
sometimes one of the challenges. The toxicity that--where we 
might have materials that are valuable bound up in materials 
that are potentially toxic, that could be another barrier to 
recovering some of these materials. But that's--you know, these 
are things, I think, that could be figured out and with more 
investment in looking at those strategies, I think, you know, 
closing these gaps is really critical to getting that circular 
economy in those materials.
    Ms. Lee. What existing and developing environmentally 
sustainable approaches are there for the extraction, 
separation, processing, and manufacturing of critical minerals.
    Dr. Mulvaney. Could you repeat that one more time?
    Ms. Lee. Yes. So what are the existing and developing 
environmentally sustainable approaches? So, as we're talking 
about, you know, extraction and manufacturing, are there 
environmentally sustainable approaches that we could 
prioritize?
    Dr. Mulvaney. I think some of the non-mining techniques 
might be areas that we start with. I think, you know, despite 
the concerns about direct lithium extraction, for example, 
there are potentially opportunities there to recover materials 
from those resources.
    Ms. Lee. Dr. Horn, China dominates processing and refining 
of the critical minerals essential to a clean energy 
transition, and yet the methods they use to process and refine 
these minerals and elements are extremely disruptive to our 
environment. How can Federal research funding help us compete 
with China's monopoly on processing and refining and ensure 
that we're truly achieving clean energy?
    Mr. Horn. Thank you, Congresswoman. I don't want to sound 
overly optimistic because I know a lot of this has been about 
threats, but the technology really is there from a U.S. 
perspective and in ways where we can cleanly outcompete PRC 
industry, right? They're working with a command economy. They 
have no regulations, no oversight. We have all of those, and 
what it has resulted in is decades of research that is now 
coming into commercialization. So there are technologies that 
can take tailings, even coal waste, and economically turn it 
into battery materials in various forms. And so I think we need 
to support those technologies, especially the ones that have 
investor interest and potential to go fully commercial and 
double down on that, and then that is the way we will get there 
organically.
    Ms. Lee. Thank you so much, and thank you to the panel. I 
yield back.
    Mr. Williams. Thank you. I now recognize myself for five 
minutes.
    Quick question. Mr. Peay, is your father General Binnie 
Peay? My father-in-law is Colonel Marshall McCree, and I'm 
still trying to convince my wife that it was a good idea to--
that he allowed her to marry a nuclear submarine officer. So he 
is quite beloved in our family.
    Mr. Peay. Well, thank you.
    Mr. Williams. Yes, our families knew each other.
    I want to jump in. I have a little bit of experience in 
mining and treating acid mine drainage and trying to 
precipitate metals out and treat different waste streams out of 
leech mines, for example, out of tailing mines for the gold 
industry and a lot of research around that. I would not pretend 
to be an expert, but I've touched it a few times, including 
binder for backfill in nickel mines in Ontario, et cetera. So 
I'm super interested in this.
    But I want to, if I may, have the juxtaposition between Mr. 
Horn and Mr. Caers, is that right? And, you know, I hear the 
national security mandate. I certainly share that concern and 
that priority that we get moving on this, and yet I find, Mr. 
Caers, your testimony that we need to do it in a--we need to be 
exploiting these minerals and where they exist and in 
concentration to make them economically viable and 
environmentally responsible. I know we will do that.
    But, Dr. Caers, do you mind first, you know, saying--do we 
have enough information right now to start--if we had investors 
to go attack these, do we know where these minerals are today?
    Dr. Caers. I would say that the answer to that is no. So 
the Department of Interior has been tasked to map the entire 
United States through the USGS. But I've talked to my 
colleagues at the USGS, and they're wonderful geologists, but 
they do not have the technology innovation equipped to do that. 
I work for a startup company in Silicon Valley, Coble Metals, 
that have 150 people employed. Half of them are data scientists 
and artificial intelligence experts, and half of them are 
geologists, and they are mapping very large areas in the world, 
including entire countries. I don't see that present currently, 
that technology and that innovation present----
    Mr. Williams. If I may just, you know, the critical mineral 
list is long and growing. Let's focus just on uranium. Just 
given the history of the cold war--and I know USGS, you know, 
collects core samples and keeps them for a long period of 
time--it seems like we would have discovered a lot of the good 
sources for uranium. I see yellow cakes up to $80 a pound, and 
it may actually be viable, you know, if we were to start 
domestic mining. Do we have enough information to restart 
uranium mining?
    Dr. Caers. I am not familiar with the uranium part. Sorry.
    Mr. Williams. OK. Mr. Horn, to you, do we have enough 
information to jumpstart and accelerate this in the prescribed 
manner that has the concentration to make it economically 
viable instead of----
    Mr. Horn. I would respectfully disagree with my colleague 
and say that we absolutely do. I'll just give a little bit of a 
vignette to try and reinforce that. So my chief geologist led a 
lot of the government efforts previously, spending a career at 
USGS and DOE. I think he would be the first to contend that 
it's going to be the private sector that needs to lead to the 
proper utilization and optimization of tailings and other 
resources.
    I understand probably that you're aware as well that not 
all tailings are created equal. Acid mine drainage, gob piles, 
though I wish we could turn them all into cash and paydirt, it 
just can't be done with the current technology. However, there 
is current technology that can do it. I can show you, you know, 
if you'd like, a tailings pile that I believe has a defendable 
NPV (net present value) of $3 billion based off of the 
concentration. Is that every tailings pile? No.
    And I would say as far as uranium, we have as much 
resources as we need a domestically as well, especially if 
you're using advanced methods of recovery. ISR (in situ 
recovery) recovery, which is being opened up and developed in 
Texas right now, that can be the solution, rather than relying 
on Russian-influence sources that are no longer available.
    Mr. Williams. I just want to give Mr. Peay an opportunity 
to jump in here because you sit at the nexus of a lot of this 
kind of data. How do you feel about our knowledge that we could 
go out and successfully begin exploiting opportunities to 
buildup our ability to mine critical minerals?
    Mr. Peay. Yes, I mean, I think we are in a great position. 
Our work on unconventional feedstock, that's taken 10 years to 
get where we are today is about to explode, and there's a 
massive amount--significant amount of critical minerals that we 
can get from unconventional feedstocks. The work we have done 
in our office on the subsurface for years on oil and natural 
gas and shale, the work that geothermal has done can be 
revolutionary to the mining industry, so we have a lot of 
opportunities here domestically.
    Mr. Williams. I just want to respect my colleagues. Thank 
you very much.
    The Chair recognizes Mr. Casten, for five minutes. Thank 
you for your answers.
    Mr. Casten. Thank you, Mr. Chair, and I appreciate you all 
being here. Good news is we're nearing the end.
    The--I want to just level set a little bit, and, Mr. Peay, 
I want to get to a question for you because I've never seen a 
good answer to the question that I have in my intuitive head, 
so as you listen to this, tell me if you think my intuition is 
wrong.
    Let's say all of us got together tomorrow and we want to go 
out and build a coal plant. We're going to require hundreds, 
thousands of tons of material, for steel, for aluminum, for 
copper, for rare earth metals, for the high-temperature parts 
of the combustion system, the catalytic controls on the back 
end for--to take out the acid-rain-forming compounds, maybe 
electrostatic precipitator, and then we're going to get the 
whole thing built, and then we're going to need hundreds, 
thousands of tons an hour of coal to run the thing, plus the 
diesel fuel to cart the coal ash away, plus all the trucks 
bringing the water treatment chemicals in.
    If, on the other hand, we built a solar field and some--you 
know, some wind turbines and some efficiency, we'd also need 
thousands of tons of stuff, different tons of stuff, to be 
sure, but then we don't need any ongoing stuff. I'm using the 
technical term.
    So, Mr. Peay, has DOE or anyone done an analysis of how 
many tons of stuff do we have to dig out of the earth in a 
carbon-intensive world every year? And how many tons of stuff 
do we have to dig out of the world every year in a carbon-
neutral world every year?
    Mr. Peay. So what we need to do in the near term is about 
four to six times what we're currently doing, but----
    Mr. Casten. I get the transition, but I guess I ask the 
question--and if you don't know the answer, that's fine, but 
I--you know, there's a rich conversation here. And I agree with 
everything that everybody said. We should have environmental 
justice concerns and everything else. But we--you know, Chevron 
did some bad stuff in Ecuador. That's a serious environmental 
justice problem, right? And if we need less stuff, then those 
issues become smaller.
    Mr. Peay. Yes, I mean, I think one of the--you know, the 
key pieces--and when we talk about some of the international 
supply concerns around critical minerals versus a fuel like oil 
and natural gas is, you know, we don't constantly need it, and 
it's not immediately disruptive to our economy, even when there 
is a supply shock. It is something that we can continue to 
reuse. It goes into products. It's not something that's 
dependent on an ongoing, daily basis. So there are differences. 
It's not a one-for-one.
    Mr. Casten. Yes. And the national security issues are 
obviously--and they're different, right? There was a time when 
we were nervous about German coal, but, you know, we've moved 
on.
    Dr. Mulvaney, I want to shift to you. I really appreciate 
all of your--you keep reminding us of the value of recycling, 
and I appreciate that. This Committee, last term, we had a 
field hearing not far from my home, which was convenient out by 
Argonne talking about battery recycling technologies. And I 
wonder if you could just level set us again on this one. My 
understanding is that of all of the plastics we currently put 
into the recycling stream, not all the plastics will use, what 
we put in, what, maybe 5 to 10 percent gets recycled? Do I have 
that right, actually like turned into something useful?
    Dr. Mulvaney. Yes, a lot of it's down-cycled, so it goes 
into different quality products as you can't really recover the 
polymers.
    Mr. Casten. Well, I'm talking about something just gets 
thrown away because I don't rinse out my milk jug or, you 
know----
    Dr. Mulvaney. Right. Yes. Probably, yes.
    Mr. Casten. So I guess what I'm wondering is, are there 
lessons from our failure to effectively structure a plastics 
recycling industry that we should not repeat as we think about 
recycling industries for these critical minerals so that we 
actually get closer to 100 percent recovery?
    Dr. Mulvaney. Probably not in the sense that household 
plastics and things like that, they're usually just waste 
management issues for the local communities. I think there are 
lessons to be learned from other metals recycling. So, for 
example, I often hear something like 90 percent of all the 
steel is--we've ever made is all still in products because we 
recycle that pretty continuously, and those are lessons that we 
can--those are--that's a great example of a circular economy, 
and I think we can continue to drive thing--drive the loops in 
that direction.
    Mr. Casten. Yes. There's a rich conversation about gold 
versus silver on that front as well.
    So I guess I just leave--and if you have any comments now 
or for the record, one of--when we did this field hearing, one 
of the takeaways from the scientists we had there was that the 
battery recycling facilities we're building right now are 
recycling up to a chemistry that is useful for today's 
batteries but is almost certainly not going to be useful for 
the batteries--the battery chemistries we're going to be using 
13, 15 years from now when that material enters the recycling 
stream. And their recommendation to us was that we should be 
thinking about what we need to do from a policy perspective to 
get purity of materials that's--can enter into a lot of 
different chemistries.
    And if any of you have thoughts, and I'm--my time's up 
here--on what should we be doing. Is that a business issue, is 
it a regulatory issue, to try to make sure, as we build out 
this recycling, that we're building recycling facilities that 
are going to be useful for the materials that we're going to 
need once they get into that value chain?
    And I'm going to have to yield back unless the Chairman 
will yield anybody time to answer that question.
    Mr. Collins [presiding]. We've got a number of people that 
are wanting to ask questions, so--all right, thank you.
    The Chair now recognizes himself for five minutes.
    Very interesting topic. You know, I sit on the House 
Natural Resources Committee as well and have spent quite a bit 
of time going across the country with field hearings, just 
start out with and let you know that. And a lot of these field 
hearings we've been having is on critical minerals and the lack 
of being able to get permits to even mine, and to the point to 
where, you know, we're down to three smelters, and 80 percent 
of our mining that we do is processed in China. And, of course, 
we want to bring everything back home, even including chips, 
which you can't manufacture chips here because you can't mine 
the critical minerals to get it. So it's in every Committee 
that we sit in, it seems like everything is going back to how 
do we get back to the United States and how do we do our 
critical mining?
    And, Dr. Caers, I got a few questions. In your testimony 
you mentioned that Mineral-X receives funding primarily from 
foreign investors. Who's the largest foreign investor, would 
you say?
    Dr. Caers. Morocco.
    Mr. Collins. Morocco?
    Dr. Caers. Yes, we do lots of work on the phosphate value 
chain in Morocco. For example, as my colleagues at--Morocco 
phosphate is--creates a lot of waste, and we're using 
artificial intelligence to design a new system of mining and 
processing----
    Mr. Collins. Yes.
    Dr. Caers [continuing]. In Morocco. We'd love to do that in 
the United States. We just can't get any funding.
    Mr. Collins. So China has made it a point to let everybody 
know that by the end of 2045 or 2049, whichever one, that they 
want to be the leader in everything, socially, economically, 
space, the whole nine yards. And they have been very good at 
getting the technology from the United States in one of two 
ways. Either they do investments as a foreign company or they 
outright steal the technology. Either way, they get it. And so 
how do you ensure that research security in this industry, this 
critical industry, and safeguard these advancements so that 
they don't end up in the hands of countries like China?
    Dr. Caers. Well, I can only talk to artificial intelligence 
because that's the technology that we're using. And I think 
it's critical that not only we've been developing this AI for 
what we're doing now, generative AI, open AI, things like that, 
but also develop AI for upskilling technology in these sectors, 
the mining industry, et cetera. So I think that's a great 
opportunity for the United States to be a leader. We are a 
leader in artificial intelligence, but we can also be a leader 
of using artificial intelligence in traditional industries, and 
that is not happening today. And I think that's very important 
because I see a lot of work done in China on using artificial 
intelligence in various resources industries, and so I think we 
need to invest in that such that the Chinese----
    Mr. Collins. Are they an investor?
    Dr. Caers. No, they don't invest in us.
    Mr. Collins. OK.
    Dr. Caers. Yes.
    Mr. Collins. All right. Mr. Horn, I also want to echo thank 
you for your service. It's people like you let my kids grow up 
to be free, and we owe our veterans a debt of gratitude we 
probably could never repay.
    But--and I also--this isn't my question, but you mentioned 
coal and how we could--we actually--coal waste, you can take 
care of it now. And I find it funny. I was just visiting a 
power generation plant near my home, coal generator, had four 
units. They closed one from a neighboring State. It was the 
cheapest power they could produce, and clean. But yet, from a 
public perspective, they quit using coal to manufacture power 
in a time when we have record inflation and people are spending 
more than ever on everything from food to energy. So I thought 
that was kind of telling what you had to say there.
    But in your testimony, you stated the need to streamline 
the government regulatory process for critical mineral mining. 
What regulatory hurdles currently stand in the way of 
innovation and commercialization for mining critical minerals, 
and what can Congress do to help remove these things?
    Mr. Horn. Well, thank you, Congressman, and thank you for 
your kind words.
    I mean, it's a challenge dealing with this subject because 
we don't want to lower ourselves to the Chinese standard, 
right? And what we do every time, we buy materials that are 
sourced through their slave labor, their disastrous 
environmental policies as we adopt their terrible policies as 
our own. We cannot do that. So I'm not advocating for China to 
replicate what they're doing. What I'm advocating is we take a 
holistic look at this. Much like you indicated that there can 
be uses for coal that are actually environmental pluses, right? 
Remove carbon from the atmosphere. It's things of that nature.
    We need to do the same thing with consideration of 
permitting, right? We've got a partner who is in the process of 
permitting a mine that has, essentially, like I said, the rare 
earth--on a heavy perspective--solution that would allow many 
other projects to work in the United States to include some 
that were brought up today such as MP Materials and others that 
need those heavies in order to actually convert to the true 
optimization that we're looking for.
    So I would say what there needs to be is truly end-state-
driven evaluation of the permitting process, and there needs to 
be tight oversight over every single one of these agencies from 
Congress to ensure that implementation is allowing a lot of 
these key projects to move forward to give us the environmental 
solutions that we're looking for.
    Mr. Collins. Thank you. I know I'm out of time, but, Mr. 
Peay, I want to echo that. Thank you for your service as well.
    So, with that, the Chair yields to Mr. Lieu of California 
for five minutes.
    Mr. Lieu. All right. Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you to 
the witnesses for your time and your expertise.
    I'm a Democrat, so I don't oppose government intervention 
in the free market, provided certain conditions are met. I just 
want to know if those conditions are met. And I'm curious why 
in this particular industry we want to increase U.S. taxpayer 
dollar funding. I'm not opposed to doing that, but I just want 
to ask some basic questions. And let me just first--I don't 
think it's sufficient to say, oh, because it's helpful to the 
defense industry, therefore, we should put U.S. taxpayer 
dollars into it. There's lots of things that are helpful to our 
national security, such as educating our children well, having 
a trained workforce. I can think of 57 things that we would, 
you know, put Federal funding to do.
    So my first question is pretty basic, and it follows on 
something I thought Professor Caers said. So you said we're the 
leader in artificial intelligence, and yet, we don't apply this 
to mining or rare earth minerals, and we should have more 
investment. But why doesn't the private sector figure that out? 
Why doesn't the private sector just go in here and go, hey, we 
can do all this stuff and then sell these rare earth minerals 
for a lot of money? Why does the government have to be involved 
in subsidizing private industry here? Anyone can answer that.
    Mr. Horn. Yes, I'll take a first stab at that, Congressman, 
if you don't mind. So----
    Mr. Lieu. Yes.
    Mr. Horn [continuing]. Having served as a senior government 
executive and now in private sector, I've seen a little bit of 
both sides of the fence. And I will say it's very complicated. 
The constraints in the free market that our companies operate 
under, profitability is mandatory essentially, there needs to 
be a business case for everything that's done. And we're 
currently competing against several adversaries that have 
command economies that use zero regulation and oversight and 
use State money essentially to outcompete what I believe are 
our better products, services, and manufacturing.
    So my view of government funding in this sector is that 
it's essential to serve as a catalyst to get the private market 
truly into this space where they can outcompete some of these 
adversaries. I would not say it should be eternal funding, but 
I would say short-term funding to kind of spur this new 
activity and investment calculus that's, I think, drastically 
needed right now.
    Mr. Lieu. OK. Thank you. Are there certain rare earth 
minerals that the United States simply doesn't have even if we 
were to try to mine it? Or do we know that?
    Mr. Peay. I mean, I believe we have access to all the rare 
earth metals--rare earth elements, unless someone wants to 
contradict me to that. The problem is we don't have the rest of 
the supply chain.
    Mr. Lieu. And why is it that we don't have--why is it that 
China has all these processing facilities and nobody else in 
the world does?
    Mr. Peay. I mean, we used to have it, right? It--I mean, we 
used to lead the world in processing rare earths decades ago, 
and then through some of the reasons that were talked about, 
you know, a country that can manipulate its markets has been 
able to, just through economics, things have moved over there 
because we can't compete, and so the industry was allowed to 
move to China. And essentially, we just stopped doing it, and 
now we're realizing as a country that we put ourselves in a 
serious position.
    Mr. Lieu. So what you're saying is we could next year just 
start processing these things or building facilities to process 
these minerals, just that it won't be profitable? Is that 
basically what you're saying?
    Mr. Peay. So it's not just about building the facilities in 
the industry for doing the refining and processing. The other 
problem is when it's gone away, we've lost the entire 
workforce, all the education, the people skilled in trades and 
engineers and that whole process. And so it's not as easy as 
just saying, well, let's, you know, have the Defense 
Department, you know, use the DPA and get something built. 
We've got to build back the entire capacity that was lost.
    Mr. Lieu. Yes, go ahead.
    Mr. Horn. If I could just add to that, and I don't want to 
play geologist, I think the only rare earth element that we 
don't have is promethium because it has to be constructed. It 
doesn't naturally occur. But it's not of high use anyway. I 
guess what I would say is that we are close in a lot of those 
areas to actually commercializing things, more so than people 
would realize.
    There is a workup period, though. There is a workup period, 
and there is a high standard that the private sector is 
looking, right? When I propose a project, my investors are 
expecting a 10X return or they're going to say it's safer to go 
to another industry. That's what we're up against, and that 
means that it takes some time and some incentives from the 
Federal perspective to actually outcompete the other options in 
commercial real estate and other sectors.
    Mr. Lieu. Thank you. I appreciate it.
    Mr. Collins. The Chair now recognizes Mr. Tonko from New 
York for five minutes.
    Mr. Tonko. Well, thank you, Mr. Chair, and I thank Chair 
Lucas and Ranking Member Lofgren for holding this hearing and 
thank our witnesses for being here today to share their 
expertise on this very important topic.
    Last Congress, I was proud to work with my colleagues to 
pass sweeping legislation to accelerate our clean energy 
transition, create good-paying jobs, and advance our scientific 
research enterprise. As implementation of these legislative 
efforts is underway and the demand for critical minerals 
continues to grow, we must ensure that they are an enabler 
rather than a bottleneck for the clean energy transition. This 
is why it is essential that we work now to guarantee that 
critical materials are being sourced in a sustainable, in an 
ethical, and in an informed and environmentally sound manner. 
One facet important for protecting human rights and upholding 
high labor and environmental standards is, indeed, 
transparency. We must be able to see where materials are coming 
from and going to.
    So, Dr. Mulvaney, in your testimony, you discussed 
components of the recent EU battery regulation. Another portion 
of this regulation is increasing supply chain traceability with 
technologies like the digital identifiers, also referred to as 
battery passports. So, doctor, what role do you think the 
development of tools like these for traceability could play in 
strengthening clean energy supply chains?
    Dr. Mulvaney. I think those tools could play a big role. We 
definitely need to have more visibility into these supply 
chains. I see this with the solar industry, for example. The 
solar industry went into turmoil for a couple of years with the 
accusations of forced labor, and they couldn't figure out where 
materials were coming from. We've been advocating for, you 
know, transparency in supply chains for a very long time. They 
still can only look one tier deep in their supply chain, so we 
need to be looking tier two, tier three all the way back to 
where the materials are actually sourced from. So I think a 
combination of those tools but also requirements to look 
further and deeper into the supply chain are critical.
    Mr. Tonko. Well, thank you.
    And, Secretary Peay, in your testimony, you also 
highlighted the need for mineral source traceability and 
verification capabilities. Can you expand upon DOE's efforts in 
this space, please?
    Mr. Peay. Yes. So as we're looking at improving domestic 
mining, part of that is to ensure that we're having 
traceability of our minerals, and then we need to understand 
the international supply chain as well so that we know that 
what we're getting has been responsibly sourced.
    Mr. Tonko. Thank you. And would anyone else care to comment 
on the need for supply chain transparency? Mr. Horn?
    Mr. Horn. I would just state the obvious, that it's 
absolutely essential. Transparency, accountability, you know, 
honesty of sourcing is how this sector needs to be built. There 
needs to be no secret, and I honestly believe that daylight is 
the best disinfectant to prevent against anything that we don't 
want to be supporting. So there are nefarious forces out there 
that see well-intended desires to push forward with energy 
transition and other things of that nature that are looking to 
capitalize on it in a negative way. We could prevent that by 
mandating transparency and accountability across the supply 
chain.
    Mr. Tonko. Thank you. In addition to bringing visibility to 
supply chains, I believe there's work to be done to ensure that 
safe and effective recovery, recycling, and reuse play a role 
in these supply chains. It is crucial that we prepare now for 
rapid growth of different types of waste from increasing and 
evolving clean energy technologies like batteries and solar 
panels or even wind turbines. To do this, we must improve and 
expand our current toolbox of technologies and strategies.
    Secretary Peay, in your testimony you discuss diversity--
diversifying supplies of critical materials, including 
recycling from end-of-life systems like wind turbines and 
exciting DOE initiatives like the wind turbine materials 
recycling prize. Can you speak to any gaps you see in the 
technologies or infrastructure needed for recycling different 
types of products and how efforts like these can help close 
them?
    Mr. Peay. Yes, and so something that was mentioned earlier 
is about how the needs and purities will change in the future 
from the products that'll be coming to end of life, and so our 
Office of Science is doing some of that work on fundamental 
chemistries to look at some of these products, and that's 
really important. And then everything we can do to make 
recycling more efficient will be able to help what's already 
happening in industry because we're already seeing some great 
companies getting into this like Redwood Materials and others.
    Mr. Tonko. Thank you. Well, I'm out of time. But, Mr. 
Baroody, I had a question for you, but I'll have the Committee 
get it to you, and we'll get it in writing.
    Thank you, gentlemen, again for your expert testimony and 
input. With that, I yield back.
    Mr. Collins. Thank you, Mr. Tonko.
    The Chair now recognizes Mr. Miller of Ohio for five 
minutes.
    Mr. Miller. Thank you. I'd like to thank the Chair and the 
Ranking Member for holding this morning's hearing, which has 
now gone into the afternoon, and for our witnesses for joining 
us here.
    Before this hearing, my team and I talked with some 
companies in my district in northeast Ohio that work daily with 
the critical minerals and materials we're focusing on now to 
hear about some of the specific challenges they're facing. I 
think the most common issue that I heard about in these 
conversations was the short supply of graphite, as well as some 
others. So I'm glad that the Committee is addressing the issue 
of critical minerals and materials today.
    My first question is for Mr. Horn. Mr. Horn, I understand 
that GreenMet looks at innovation and technology trends in the 
sector. How can emerging technology areas like artificial 
intelligence and machine learning be leveraged to enable us to 
strengthen our mineral security and avoid the shortages I'm 
hearing about from my constituents?
    Mr. Horn. Thanks for the question, Congressman. I would say 
that AI can be implemented into all technical innovation across 
the entire supply chain. The projects that we're looking at 
with our partners to implement it span for mineral sourcing and 
scouting similar to what some of the other witnesses have 
spoken up to. I think there's a lot that can be done there that 
AI can optimize.
    We're also looking at capabilities of automating portions 
of the metallurgy and separation cycles in U.S. facilities 
where, you know, I honestly believe we can outcompete the 
Chinese on a cost basis because we can actually find ways to 
use implementation to outprice them on their own labor 
practices, which I think is--it sounds impossible. I think it 
can be done. I stand by that challenge.
    So I think AI and technology can be implemented in a way to 
give us an innovative edge over our adversaries in China and 
Russia and allow us to actually produce the kinds of revenue 
and returns where investors and companies like myself can bring 
in larger commercial entities to double down and truly support 
the U.S. reemergence as the dominant producer in this category.
    Mr. Miller. Yes, thank you for that answer, and I could not 
agree more with your assessment.
    My next question is for any of the witnesses. In each of 
your opinions, does the United States have the necessary 
workforce needed to develop a domestic supply chain for 
critical materials? And if not, what are some of the hurdles 
that we will face in trying to meet this need? For any of the 
witnesses, please chime in.
    Dr. Mulvaney. I'll start and say no, we don't have that 
right now. And I think one strategy perhaps to advance the 
workforce is to embed in funding opportunities, workforce 
development opportunities like the Justice40 Initiative, I 
think, could be paired with apprenticeships and internships and 
things like that working in these industries, so--to get 
students excited, to get the workforce excited. So that--but 
the answer is no, I don't think we have the workforce yet.
    Mr. Miller. Yes, Mr. Peay?
    Mr. Peay. I'll add to that. Yes, getting both university-
level training and trade training is really important. We've 
lost a lot of these skill sets as this industry has moved 
overseas. We have a relatively small program on university 
training research, and we've been able to do some work on 
critical minerals at universities. So it's things like that if 
we can expand--and I do like the idea of how you can pair 
things with funding opportunities to get training for people 
new to these projects would also be super beneficial.
    Mr. Miller. Thank you.
    Mr. Horn. One thing I'd add, Congressman, is I think a lot 
can be done from the private sector, right? I fully endorse and 
support academic and government efforts. However, I think 
there's a misunderstanding, especially with some of the younger 
generations, my own included, in the nature of these jobs, how 
high paying they can be, how essential they are to 
technological innovation. You know, it doesn't matter how old 
you are, but if you'd like an iPhone or a tablet or any forms 
of social media, this is critically essential for all of those.
    Mr. Miller. Yes, and I don't mean to just jump in, but, 
look, I'm 35 years old, which means that I didn't graduate from 
high school too long ago, OK? And so when I was going through 
the high school process, everyone told me that I needed to go 
to college. Otherwise, I was never going to be successful, OK? 
I wanted to be a United States Marine. I ended up doing that 
anyway but after I went to college. But it wasn't what I wanted 
to do.
    And we have jobs out there right now within the trade 
industry, which is down 2 percent across the board, so it 
doesn't surprise me to hear all of you say that we don't have 
the need that we have. But we have carpenters right now in the 
State of Ohio, we're 2,000 short to build the Intel project, 
which is a billion-dollar project that we have in the State. If 
we are down 2 percent across the trades, and we have no one to 
work in your industry in critical minerals and materials, which 
is vital to what this Administration is pushing, once again, 
vital to what this Administration is pushing and their agenda, 
how do you get there? And it's--I mean, make it make sense.
    And I don't mean to go on a rant, but it's simply not true. 
We have jobs out there that will pay over $100,000, 
steelworker, pipefitter, carpenter, welder, to elevator 
technical operator. The most-needed job in all of Ohio pays 
$160,000. I can go on. I'm over my time. But we do have a 
serious need within this country when it comes to technical 
education and reinvigorating that work ethic within our younger 
generations.
    And, Mr. Horn, I agree, your generation and mine, 
unfortunately, you know, we need to step it up and the ones 
underneath us and not get indoctrinated by social media.
    Thank you. I yield back.
    Mr. Collins. The Chair now recognizes Mr. Mullin from 
California for five minutes.
    Mr. Mullin. Thank you, Mr. Chair. I am somebody who 
graduated from high school a very long time ago.
    Thank you to our witnesses. Dr. Mulvaney, great to see you 
again, sir. I had the privilege of asking you some questions at 
our Natural Resources Committee, on which I sit. We discussed 
rare earth mineral collection and recycling programs or the 
lack thereof. We discussed--and you have all mentioned--the 
mineral supply chain is increasingly important as we continue 
to make progress on a range of new technologies.
    Since we spoke, my office did some additional research on 
the circular economy and took a look at what Europe is doing on 
this and its waste from electrical and electronic equipment or 
the WEEE (Waste Electrical and Electronic Equipment) directive 
that you had mentioned. Thank you for bringing that to my 
attention.
    So my question is for you, Dr. Mulvaney, or others if they 
want to chime in. If the United States were to pursue something 
along the lines of this directive, what are some of the top 
lines from the WEEE that you would recommend that we mirror? 
And are we starting from scratch in the United States, or is 
there some movement on this already?
    Dr. Mulvaney. I think the takeback and collection system 
and the recycled content are probably two--the top headlines 
there. And I think some States are starting to develop these 
for particular products. So California, for example, has a 
bunch of State-level extended producer responsibility programs 
for other sectors that have waste issues, mattresses, paint 
waste, stuff like that, that costs local governments a lot of 
money to dispose of. So I think that that's one piece.
    And I'll just add one thing that I think is really 
important about takeback and collection, which is the 
prevention of fires. We've had a lot of fires that have 
happened at municipal waste recovery facilities, and they're 
usually caused by pretty small consumer electronic batteries. 
So by having takeback and collection programs, we could avoid 
costs on local governments. Those are million-dollar 
facilities, often.
    Mr. Mullin. One of those was in my district, as a matter of 
fact, inspired some State-level legislation that, 
unfortunately, did not make it across the finish line. But 
thank you for that.
    And then just a quick follow up, some of the lessons maybe 
from the EU's experience that we should take into account as we 
move forward in our own approach?
    Dr. Mulvaney. Well, I think on the optimistic side, when 
the EU set up these takeback and collection programs for solar 
panels, they found reuse markets. And obviously, reusing these 
devices that generate electricity still at pretty high 
quantities, 80 percent, 70 percent of their initial capacity, 
is a lesson to be learned. By--just by stockpiling these 
materials, you could find second uses of them more often.
    Mr. Mullin. All right. Thank you for that. I yield back.
    Mr. Collins. The Chair now recognizes Mr. Frost of Florida 
for five minutes.
    Mr. Frost. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    A strong critical mineral supply chain is essential, but we 
can also support alternatives to critical mining that can help 
fuel a clean energy future. Mining critical minerals is safer 
and more efficient than mining dirty fossil fuels, but that 
doesn't mean that it's 100 percent safe. Critical mineral 
mining can present challenges to workers' health, our forests, 
wildlife, and indigenous populations, something I learned a lot 
about. I just did a trip to Chile, Colombia, and Brazil, and 
specifically, when I spent time in Brazil and Chile, we met 
with a lot of indigenous leaders and populations that brought 
that up. It's why I'm glad that the Biden Administration is 
thinking about how we can mine sustainably, but we can also 
decrease demand for mining and support the alternatives.
    Dr. Caers, there are alternatives to critical mining out 
there such as sodium-ion batteries, but I know there's 
challenges to their use. What guidance is needed from Federal 
agencies to help the research and development of commercially 
viable alternatives?
    Dr. Caers. Yes, sodium is a very interesting--sodium will 
definitely be used for stationary, but it's likely not going to 
be used for EVs in the next foreseeable future, and that's just 
to do with the material properties of thermal stability and 
also heavier. So that means that we are pretty much--you're 
going to work with the lithium-ion battery for--particularly 
for EVs.
    I think what the challenge is perhaps that can be is to 
really look at how mass manufacturing of batteries needs to 
work because we can always invent a battery in a lab and then 
even do a pilot or make a battery, but to get that to mass 
manufacturing is a huge challenge because, you know, there are 
technologies such as the solid-state battery that people talk 
about, but it's very difficult to mass manufacture them. So we 
always tend to forget about this mass manufacture. So 
investment in manufacturing and the technology to do that is 
equally important in this way.
    Mr. Frost. Thank you. Mr. Peay, the DOE sees the value of 
critical mineral recycling, spent batteries, earbuds, et 
cetera. What are some ways that DOE is working to make critical 
mineral recycling a practical way to mitigate the needs for new 
mining?
    Mr. Peay. Yes, so we're looking at every part of the supply 
chain, and so from diversifying supply to looking at 
alternative technologies that we can have, so better alloys, 
materials. Recycling is a key part of that process that we're 
looking at as well, and so what are things we can do to improve 
some of the chemical processes in recycling or some of the--or 
just some of the processing steps that we go through? But those 
are some of the key items we're looking at.
    Mr. Frost. How can Congress assist in encouraging the 
research and development of this recycling?
    Mr. Peay. So just continued support that we've been 
getting. We really appreciate the bipartisan support that this 
Committee has given and what the infrastructure law has been 
able to take from the--from lab scale and get--deploy now is 
key, and so the continued support is much appreciated.
    Mr. Frost. Thank you. Thank you. It's important to remember 
that a shortcut to meeting demand is reducing demand, and we 
can reduce the demand for critical mineral mining by increasing 
usage of commuter rail, EV, powered mass transit, et cetera. 
Urban planning that encourages safe and practical commuting by 
biking or walking is helpful, too, and I want to give a shout-
out to Orlando Bike Coalition and Orlando YIMBY in Sunrise, 
Orlando, for the work that they do at advocating for that at 
our local municipal level.
    As we meet the demand for critical minerals to achieve a 
clean energy future, let's also promote alternatives to make 
our green economy as safe as possible. Thank you so much for 
being here, and I yield back.
    Mr. Collins. Thank you.
    I thank the witnesses for taking the time to provide this 
valuable testimony and the Members for their questions. The 
record will remain open for 10 days for additional comments and 
written questions from the Members.
    This hearing is adjourned.
    [Whereupon, at 12:59 p.m., the Committee was adjourned.]

                               Appendix I

                              ----------                              


                   Answers to Post-Hearing Questions




                   Answers to Post-Hearing Questions
Responses by Mr. Ryan Peay




Responses by Dr. Jef Caers


Responses by Mr. Drew Horn


Responses by Dr. Dustin Mulvaney



Responses by Mr. Thomas E. Baroody




                              Appendix II

                              ----------                              


                   Additional Material for the Record




            Letter submitted by Representative Haley Stevens



          Article submitted by Representative Suzanne Bonamici