[House Hearing, 118 Congress]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]


                   H.R. 4235, H.R. 4353, H.R. 4717,
                   H.R. 5582, H.R. 5665, H.R. 6070,
                    AND DISCUSSION DRAFT OF H.R. ____, 
                         ``BIOCHAR ACT''

=======================================================================

                             LEGISLATIVE HEARING

                                 BEFORE THE
                                 
                     SUBCOMMITTEE ON FEDERAL LANDS

                                 OF THE

                     COMMITTEE ON NATURAL RESOURCES
                     U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

                    ONE HUNDRED EIGHTEENTH CONGRESS

                             FIRST SESSION

                               __________

                       Tuesday, November 14, 2023

                               __________

                           Serial No. 118-77

                               __________

       Printed for the use of the Committee on Natural Resources
       
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        Available via the World Wide Web: http://www.govinfo.gov
                                   or
          Committee address: http://naturalresources.house.gov
          
                              __________

                   U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE                    
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                     COMMITTEE ON NATURAL RESOURCES

                     BRUCE WESTERMAN, AR, Chairman
                    DOUG LAMBORN, CO, Vice Chairman
                  RAUL M. GRIJALVA, AZ, Ranking Member

Doug Lamborn, CO			Grace F. Napolitano, CA
Robert J. Wittman, VA			Gregorio Kilili Camacho Sablan, 	
Tom McClintock, CA			    CNMI
Paul Gosar, AZ				Jared Huffman, CA
Garret Graves, LA			Ruben Gallego, AZ
Aumua Amata C. Radewagen, AS		Joe Neguse, CO
Doug LaMalfa, CA			Mike Levin, CA
Daniel Webster, FL			Katie Porter, CA
Jenniffer Gonzalez-Colon, PR		Teresa Leger Fernandez, NM
Russ Fulcher, ID			Melanie A. Stansbury, NM
Pete Stauber, MN			Mary Sattler Peltola, AK
John R. Curtis, UT			Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, NY
Tom Tiffany, WI				Kevin Mullin, CA
Jerry Carl, AL				Val T. Hoyle, OR
Matt Rosendale, MT			Sydney Kamlager-Dove, CA
Lauren Boebert, CO			Seth Magaziner, RI
Cliff Bentz, OR				Nydia M. Velazquez, NY
Jen Kiggans, VA				Ed Case, HI
Jim Moylan, GU				Debbie Dingell, MI
Wesley P. Hunt, TX			Susie Lee, NV
Mike Collins, GA
Anna Paulina Luna, FL
John Duarte, CA
Harriet M. Hageman, WY

                    Vivian Moeglein, Staff Director
                      Tom Connally, Chief Counsel
                 Lora Snyder, Democratic Staff Director
                   http://naturalresources.house.gov
                                 ------                                

                     SUBCOMMITTEE ON FEDERAL LANDS

                       TOM TIFFANY, WI, Chairman
                     JOHN R. CURTIS, UT, Vice Chair
                     JOE NEGUSE, CO, Ranking Member

Doug Lamborn, CO                     Katie Porter, CA
Tom McClintock, CA                   Sydney Kamlager-Dove, CA
Russ Fulcher, ID                     Gregorio Kilili Camacho Sablan, 
Pete Stauber, MN                         CNMI
John R. Curtis, UT                   Mike Levin, CA
Cliff Bentz, OR                      Teresa Leger Fernandez, NM
Jen Kiggans, VA                      Mary Sattler Peltola, AK
Jim Moylan, GU                       Raul M. Grijalva, AZ, ex officio
Bruce Westerman, AR, ex officio

                              ----------                                
                               
                               CONTENTS

                              ----------                              
                                                                   Page

Hearing held on Tuesday, November 14, 2023.......................     1

Statement of Members:

    Tiffany, Hon. Tom, a Representative in Congress from the 
      State of Wisconsin.........................................     2
    Neguse, Hon. Joe, a Representative in Congress from the State 
      of Colorado................................................    11

    Panel I:

    Lamborn, Hon. Doug, a Representative in Congress from the 
      State of Colorado..........................................     4
    Amodei, Hon. Mark, a Representative in Congress from the 
      State of Nevada............................................     5
    Kim, Hon. Young, a Representative in Congress from the State 
      of California..............................................     6
    Salinas, Hon. Andrea, a Representative in Congress from the 
      State of Oregon............................................     7
    Stansbury, Hon. Melanie A., a Representative in Congress from 
      the State of New Mexico....................................     9
    Westerman, Hon. Bruce, a Representative in Congress from the 
      State of Arkansas..........................................    10
    Barr, Hon. Andy, a Representative in Congress from the State 
      of Kentucky, prepared statement of.........................    62

Statement of Witnesses:

    Panel II:

    Oshiba, Edwin, Principal Deputy Assistant Secretary of the 
      Air Force for Energy, Installations, and Environment, 
      Department of the Air Force, Washington, DC................    13
        Prepared statement of....................................    14
    Rupert, Jeff, Director, Office of Wildland Fire, U.S. 
      Department of the Interior, Washington, DC.................    16
        Prepared statement of....................................    17
    Hall-Rivera, Jaelith, Deputy Chief of State, Private, and 
      Tribal Forestry, Forest Service, U.S. Dept. of Agriculture, 
      Washington, DC.............................................    20
        Prepared statement of....................................    22

    Panel III:

    Sherren, Pat, Director, New Product Development and Sales, 
      Metzler Forest Products, Reedsville, Pennsylvania..........    40
        Prepared statement of....................................    42
    McFall, Hon. Dwayne, Commissioner, District 3, Fremont 
      County, Colorado...........................................    43
        Prepared statement of....................................    44
        Questions submitted for the record.......................    46
    Meyer, Jason, Executive Director, White Oak Initiative, Grand 
      Rapids, Michigan...........................................    47
        Prepared statement of....................................    49

    Goldbeck, Janessa, CEO, Vet Voice Foundation, Portland, 
      Oregon.....................................................    51
        Prepared statement of....................................    53
    Goodman, Linda, Former Regional Forester and Forest Service 
      Job Corps National Director, National Job Corps 
      Association, Washington, DC................................    54
        Prepared statement of....................................    56
    Topoleski, Jim, Division Chief for Air and Wildland Division, 
      San Bernardino County Fire Department, Redlands, California    58
        Prepared statement of....................................    60

Additional Materials Submitted for the Record:

    Bureau of Land Management, Statement for the Record on H.R. 
      5665.......................................................    68
                                     
 
 LEGISLATIVE HEARING ON H.R. 4235, TO DIRECT THE SECRETARY OF 
 AGRICULTURE AND THE SECRETARY OF THE INTERIOR TO ESTABLISH A 
   WILDFIRE TECHNOLOGY TESTBED PILOT PROGRAM, AND FOR OTHER 
  PURPOSES, ``WILDFIRE TECHNOLOGY DEMONSTRATION, EVALUATION, 
MODERNIZATION, AND OPTIMIZATION ACT'' OR ``WILDFIRE TECHNOLOGY 
DEMO ACT''; H.R. 4353, TO AMEND PUBLIC LAW 91-378 TO AUTHORIZE 
 ACTIVITIES RELATING TO CIVILIAN CONSERVATION CENTERS, AND FOR 
OTHER PURPOSES, ``CIVILIAN CONSERVATION CENTER ENHANCEMENT ACT 
OF 2023''; H.R. 4717, TO AMEND THE HEALTHY FORESTS RESTORATION 
ACT OF 2003 WITH RESPECT TO THIRD-PARTY CONTRACTS FOR WILDFIRE 
 HAZARD FUEL REMOVAL, TO AMEND THE NATIONAL FOREST MANAGEMENT 
ACT WITH RESPECT TO THE THRESHOLD FOR ADVERTISED TIMBER SALES, 
   AND FOR OTHER PURPOSES, ``LOCALLY LED RESTORATION ACT OF 
 2023''; H.R. 5582, TO PROVIDE FOR WHITE OAK RESTORATION, AND 
FOR OTHER PURPOSES, ``WHITE OAK RESILIENCE ACT''; H.R. 5665, TO 
 REQUIRE A COMPREHENSIVE ASSESSMENT OF CERTAIN FEDERAL TRAILS, 
  CAMPSITES, BOAT DOCKS, AND OUTDOOR RECREATION FACILITIES TO 
   DETERMINE THE ACCESSIBILITY OPTIONS FOR INDIVIDUALS WITH 
DISABILITIES, AND FOR OTHER PURPOSES, ``PROMOTING ACCESSIBILITY 
    ON FEDERAL LANDS ACT OF 2023''; H.R. 6070, TO AMEND THE 
MILITARY LANDS WITHDRAWAL ACT OF 1999 TO CLARIFY THE AUTHORITY 
OF DEPARTMENT OF DEFENSE TO CONDUCT CERTAIN MILITARY ACTIVITIES 
AT THE NEVADA TEST AND TRAINING RANGE, AND FOR OTHER PURPOSES; 
 AND DISCUSSION DRAFT OF H.R. ____, TO ESTABLISH DEMONSTRATION 
 PROJECTS TO SUPPORT THE DEVELOPMENT AND COMMERCIALIZATION OF 
 BIOCHAR AND A COMPETITIVE GRANT PROGRAM TO CARRY OUT RESEARCH 
AND DEVELOPMENT WITH RESPECT TO BIOCHAR, ``BIOCHAR INNOVATIONS 
AND OPPORTUNITIES FOREST CONSERVATION, HEALTH, AND ADVANCEMENTS 
              IN RESEARCH ACT'' OR ``BIOCHAR ACT''

                              ----------                              


                       Tuesday, November 14, 2023

                     U.S. House of Representatives

                     Subcommittee on Federal Lands

                     Committee on Natural Resources

                             Washington, DC

                              ----------                              

    The Subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 2 p.m. in Room 
1324, Longworth House Office Building, Hon. Tom Tiffany 
[Chairman of the Subcommittee] presiding.
    Present: Representatives Tiffany, Lamborn, Fulcher, 
Stauber, Bentz, Westerman; Neguse, Porter, and Peltola.
    Also present: Representatives Amodei, Kim; Hoyle, Salinas, 
and Stansbury.

    Mr. Tiffany. The Subcommittee on Federal Lands will come to 
order.
    Without objection, the Chair is authorized to declare a 
recess of the Subcommittee at any time.
    The Subcommittee is meeting today to consider seven bills: 
a Discussion Draft of H.R. ____, the BIOCHAR Act, it doesn't 
have a number, it is a discussion draft; H.R. 4235, Wildfire 
Technology Demonstration, Evaluation, Modernization, and 
Optimization Act; H.R. 4353, Civilian Conservation Center 
Enhancement Act; H.R. 4717, Locally Led Restoration Act of 
2023; H.R. 5582, White Oak Resilience Act; H.R. 5665, Promoting 
Accessibility on Federal Lands Act of 2023; and H.R. 6070, to 
amend the Military Lands Withdrawal Act of 1999 to clarify the 
authority of the Department of Defense to conduct certain 
military activities at the Nevada Test and Training Range, and 
for other purposes.
    I ask unanimous consent that the following Members be 
allowed to participate in today's hearing from the dais: the 
gentleman from Nevada, Mr. Amodei; the gentleman from Kentucky, 
Mr. Barr; the gentlewoman from California, Mrs. Kim; and the 
gentlewomen from Oregon, Ms. Salinas and Ms. Hoyle.
    Without objection, so ordered.
    Under Committee Rule 4(f), any oral opening statements at 
hearings are limited to the Chairman and the Ranking Minority 
Member.
    I therefore ask unanimous consent that all other Members' 
opening statements be made part of the hearing record if they 
are submitted in accordance with Committee Rule 3(o).
    Without objection, so ordered.
    I will now recognize myself for an opening statement.

STATEMENT OF THE HON. TOM TIFFANY, A REPRESENTATIVE IN CONGRESS 
                  FROM THE STATE OF WISCONSIN

    Mr. Tiffany. Those who understand the magnitude of our 
forest health crisis understand it is not a problem the Federal 
Government can fix alone. State, tribal, local, and private 
partners will play a crucial role in addressing our overgrown, 
fire-prone Federal lands.
    As my colleague on this Subcommittee, Congressman 
McClintock, often likes to say, we have a choice. We can either 
carry excess biomass out of our forests or we can burn it out. 
In one scenario, we create jobs and sustain rural communities 
through wood products. In the latter scenario, we degrade air 
and water quality, decimate wildlife habitat, and let rural 
economies shut down along with the wood products industry. The 
choice is clear, which is why the Subcommittee on Federal Lands 
will be considering several pieces of legislation today that 
will strengthen the partnership and coordination between 
Federal and non-Federal partners.
    A key piece of addressing this crisis is creating new 
markets for wood products and expanding existing markets. 
Between 2000 and 2019, 1,500 mills shut down their operations. 
I will repeat that. Between 2000 and 2019, 1,500 sawmills in 
the United States of America in the West shut down their 
operations. It should come as no shock to us that wildfires 
dramatically increased over this same period, as you can see on 
the chart behind me.
    [Chart.]
    Mr. Tiffany. Today, despite the fact that the Forest 
Service's mission is to harvest timber under a multiple use and 
sustained yield mandate, the agency is failing to meet even its 
own modest timber targets. In 2021, the top 10 lumber producers 
harvested 17 billion board feet of timber, more than five times 
what the Forest Service produced.
    One of the bills that would begin to address this problem 
is H.R. 4717, the Locally Led Restoration Act, offered by 
Congressman Lamborn. This bipartisan bill empowers third-party 
contractors to propose their own stewardship contracts, and 
requires that at least 10 percent of any project involve the 
removal of salvaged timber. This requirement will help address 
the enormous amount of hazard trees that have been killed by 
wildfires, disease, and insects over the past several years.
    H.R. 4717 also raises the cap on timber sales that the 
Forest Service can have without undertaking a full competitive 
bidding process. This will enable the Forest Service to do 
direct sales for small, but still very meaningful, forest 
management projects. The positive changes in this bill provide 
benefits to rural economies and lead to better forest 
management.
    Similarly, Congressman Barr's White Oak Resilience Act is 
another bipartisan proposal that relies on public-private 
partnerships to ensure the longevity of the white oak. White 
oak plays a critical role in supporting healthy forest 
ecosystems, and is also used to make furniture, flooring, and 
perhaps, most famously, barrels for wine and spirits. 
Scientists have warned that a looming shortage of white oak is 
imminent without intervention for this keystone hardwood 
species.
    While we need to improve markets for high-value timber, we 
must also evaluate solutions for low-value hazardous fuels that 
must be removed from our Federal forests. That is why I am 
looking forward to hearing more from Chairman Westerman today 
on his bipartisan BIOCHAR Act, which would do just that.
    Finally, we will consider Representative Young Kim's 
Wildfire Technology DEMO Act, which is a well-crafted bill that 
will improve the technologies and tools used to combat 
wildfires. This bipartisan proposal leverages public-private 
partnerships to test new and emerging technologies to detect 
and suppress wildfires early, which will ultimately reduce fire 
suppression costs.
    This is a quality slate of serious proposals, and I look 
forward to discussing the merits of each today. I hope that, 
with today's hearing, we can move away from conversations about 
spending endless amounts of deficit dollars to manage our 
forests, and instead evaluate the truly novel concept that 
active forest management will enhance forest health and boost 
local economies.
    I want to thank all of the witnesses for being here today, 
and I look forward to your testimony.
    With that, we are going to go to our first panel. I think 
the Ranking Member is in Rules, which it is pretty important 
that he be in Rules today.
    So, with that, first we will go to Representative Lamborn 
to introduce his bill.

    STATEMENT OF THE HON. DOUG LAMBORN, A REPRESENTATIVE IN 
              CONGRESS FROM THE STATE OF COLORADO

    Mr. Lamborn. Mr. Chairman, thank you for having this 
important legislative hearing. I want to thank the witnesses on 
the next panel for what I am sure will be an enlightening and 
helpful dialogue with our members of the Committee and 
yourself.
    Mr. Chairman, for decades our nation has been engaged in a 
hands-off approach to managing our natural resources in the 
attempt to preserve wilderness. My state of Colorado has been a 
pioneer of this approach, boasting over 3.7 million acres of 
designated wilderness and another 4 million acres of designated 
roadless. And these acres are used for hunting, fishing, 
backpacking, and more. Like all Coloradans and residents of 
Western states, I appreciate having public land that is 
available for these activities.
    However, our national forests are facing immediate threats 
of devastation if we don't take the wildfire emergency 
seriously. That is why I have introduced the Locally Led 
Restoration Act, which attempts to establish more efficient 
ways of removing dead and dying timber from our forests.
    Research shows that many parts of Colorado have four times 
more trees today than the forests did historically and 
naturally. Not only are these forests overcrowded, but they are 
also full of dead and dying trees that cannot be removed. In 
fact, Forest Service Chief Randy Moore testified before this 
Committee in April and stated that some of the areas of the 
country have a tree stand density of 600 to 800 trees.
    It is no wonder that in the fall of 2020 Colorado saw the 
two largest wildfires in state history: the Cameron Peak Fire 
and the East Troublesome Fire. The Cameron Peak Fire burned 
over 208,000 acres through two snowstorms, while the East 
Troublesome burned over 193,000 acres. What is worse is that 
these fires burned so hot that they scorched the ground 
underneath, removing nutrients, chemicals, and fungal networks 
that allow a forest to regenerate after a fire.
    In 1996, my district experienced the Buffalo Creek Fire, 
which burned 12,000 acres. The burn scar is still visible on 
the mountainside almost 30 years later, as vegetation struggles 
to recolonize the land. That land is still to this day unable 
to be hunted, fished, or provide timber as the landscape 
recovers from the catastrophic fire.
    In current forest contracting, timber companies do not have 
a formal process to propose or counter-offer a contract from 
Forest Service or the Bureau of Land Management. It is a take-
it-or-leave-it scenario, and many timber companies choose the 
leave-it option, due to the rising costs of hauling, the low 
price of small diameter timber, and other factors.
    Right now, the Pike and San Isabel Forests, which have 
already faced massive wildfires, are full of brush piles that 
cannot be removed from the forest due to the cost and due to 
other punitive regulations. That is why I have introduced H.R. 
4717, the Locally Led Restoration Act, as the Chairman 
mentioned.
    I also want to give kudos to my, until recently, staff 
member, Taylor Tougaw, who is now with the Western Caucus. But 
he has been instrumental in forming this legislation.
    Timber contractors are the only vehicle by which land 
management agencies can carry out forest restoration. 
Therefore, it is imperative that Congress streamlines the 
contracting process to make it more effective for both parties. 
My bill would allow timber contractors to propose their own 
contracts to land management agencies on the condition that at 
least 10 percent of the timber in a contract is salvaged 
material.
    To be clear, the 10 percent threshold is a floor, not a 
ceiling, and can be altered during negotiations if needed.
    This bill also increases the threshold with which the 
Forest Service must advertise sales from $10,000 to $50,000 to 
account for the inflation that has occurred since 1976, almost 
half a century ago.
    I appreciate the Committee looking into this matter, and I 
look forward to forming a strong consensus on this important 
issue.
    With that, Mr. Chairman, I yield back.

    Mr. Tiffany. Thank you, Representative Lamborn. I would now 
like to recognize Representative Amodei for 5 minutes on H.R. 
6070.

STATEMENT OF THE HON. MARK AMODEI, A REPRESENTATIVE IN CONGRESS 
                    FROM THE STATE OF NEVADA

    Mr. Amodei. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. For your record, Mark 
Amodei, representing Nevada's 2nd Congressional District.
    H.R. 6070 is a technical amendment to the Military Lands 
Withdrawal Act of 1999. It results as the need for the Air 
Force in the Nevada Test and Training Range to update their 
threat emitter array for realistic training for folks who show 
up at Nellis Air Force Base and Creech Air Force Base to 
conduct ground attack and air-to-air training to be able to be 
some of the best warfighters in the country.
    The proposal allows the Air Force, in conjunction with the 
land that they train on down there, which also shares some 
ground with the Desert National Wildlife Refuge, which is co-
managed with the Fish and Wildlife Service, to construct up to 
15 new threat emitter pads.
    You may say, what is a threat emitter pad? A threat emitter 
pad can be as much as 150 feet by 150 feet to be the home for 
electronic measures, countermeasures, that are part of the 
training program.
    You say, well, how much acreage is that? That turns out to 
be, if each of the 15 were constructed and they were all 
constructed to the 150-foot-by-150-foot footprint, we are 
talking about 7.75 acres of ground that would be impacted.
    Well, how do we know how that is going to be in terms of an 
environmental sense? Fully subject to NEPA, fully subject to 
all the requirements that the Air Force has to comply with in 
order to do any construction, even this of a fairly de minimis 
nature.
    And because of this Committee's foresight in terms of a 
Chairman who will remain unnamed, you want to run this through 
regular order. So, in order to amend the 1999 Military Lands 
Withdrawal Act, this bill is before this Committee that will, I 
believe, be subject of an amendment through substitution later 
on in your process during your markup to also incorporate two 
more measures which say, hey, you have to have some memorandums 
with the appropriate resource folks in how you are going to 
handle this construction of this potential 7.75 acres regarding 
the 15 emitter sites.
    So, Mr. Chairman, in view of your Committee's time, and 
thank you for your courtesy in allowing me to go, I know you 
have a full schedule today, that is the presentation of the 
bill. If there are any questions from you or Committee members, 
we would be happy to respond.
    Thank you, and I yield back.

    Mr. Tiffany. Yes, thank you, Representative Amodei, and now 
I would like to recognize Representative Kim from California 
for 5 minutes in regards to H.R. 4235.
    Welcome to the Committee.

 STATEMENT OF THE HON. YOUNG KIM, A REPRESENTATIVE IN CONGRESS 
                  FROM THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA

    Mrs. Kim. Thank you, Chairman Tiffany, I thank you for 
holding this hearing. And I also want to thank Chairman 
Westerman and your staff for your leadership on the issues 
before us today.
    Chairman Westerman participated in a wildfire roundtable in 
my district last year, and I am very grateful for your 
continued engagement and partnership, and actually taking the 
time to come out to California to see for yourself the 
challenges that I face every single day in my district.
    I represent California's 48th Congressional District that 
covers parts of Orange, San Bernardino, and Riverside Counties 
in Southern California. My district includes unincorporated 
areas spanning several canyon communities and the Cleveland 
National Forest Trabuco District.
    I am proud to see H.R. 4235, the Wildfire Technology 
Demonstration, Evaluation, Modernization, and Optimization Act, 
or the Wildfire Technology DEMO Act, being considered in 
today's hearing. I introduced the Wildfire Technology DEMO Act 
after hearing directly from first responders in my district, 
including U.S. Forest Service rangers from the Trabuco District 
of the Cleveland National Forest and the firefighters from the 
Orange County Fire Authority and the San Bernardino County Fire 
Protection District.
    I also heard from private-sector stakeholders developing 
innovative wildfire technologies like thermal cameras to track 
wildfires and heat trigger devices that release fire retardant 
hydrogels into the soil and air.
    H.R. 4235 aims to improve public-private partnerships in 
developing and deploying the next generation wildfire 
technology. It directs the Secretaries of the Agriculture and 
the Interior to jointly create a 4-year pilot program that 
allows private entities developing wildfire technologies to 
partner with Federal land management agencies and test their 
technologies alongside ongoing hazardous fuel mitigation 
activities and training.
    The bill allows Federal land management agencies to 
communicate key technology needs to private-sector partners, 
and it also prioritizes consideration for emerging technologies 
including AI, quantum sensing, and augmented reality for 
wildfire mitigation.
    This bill is a win-win for private entities looking to test 
their technologies at scale, and Federal land management 
agencies working to deploy emerging technologies to help first 
responders address wildfires and keep communities safe. It is 
bipartisan, common sense, and does not authorize new funding.
    I thank Wildland and Aviation Division Chief Jim Topoleski 
from San Bernardino County Fire Protection District for joining 
us at this important hearing today. Our local firefighting 
agencies in Southern California are at the forefront of 
wildfire technology innovation, and serve as a model for 
Federal wildfire management efforts. I look forward to hearing 
Chief Topoleski's testimony today.
    Many of my constituents in California's 48th Congressional 
District, especially in canyon communities, are weary of the 
increased threat of wildfires, and have felt the damage they 
can cause firsthand. We need to ensure that our Federal 
wildland firefighters have timely access to the best tools 
needed to address this threat.
    Thank you for your consideration of H.R. 4235, and I yield 
back.

    Mr. Tiffany. Thank you, Representative Kim. I will now 
recognize Representative Salinas for 5 minutes in regards to 
H.R. 4353.
    Representative Salinas.

   STATEMENT OF THE HON. ANDREA SALINAS, A REPRESENTATIVE IN 
               CONGRESS FROM THE STATE OF OREGON

    Ms. Salinas. Thank you, Chair Tiffany. Thank you for 
hosting this bill today. And I want to thank Chair Westerman, 
as well Ranking Members Neguse and Grijalva, for their work and 
for holding this important hearing.
    I appreciate your attention to H.R. 4353, the Civilian 
Conservation Center Enhancement Act, which I did introduce with 
bipartisan co-leads Representatives Guthrie, Edwards, and my 
fellow Oregonian, Representative Hoyle.
    For Oregonians, the threat of wildfires is all too real, 
and it is only growing more serious across the West. The last 
several years have been some of our worst fire seasons on 
record; 2020, in particular, was devastating to our state. That 
year saw upwards of 1.2 million acres of land and more than 
5,000 homes burned in what was an unprecedented and deadly 
emergency.
    And Oregon is not alone in facing increasingly disastrous 
wildfires. Studies by the National Oceanic and Atmospheric 
Administration show that wildfires have grown increasingly 
intense and widespread over the last decade, causing billions 
of dollars of damage and costing us countless lives. It is 
clear that Congress must do more to prevent these catastrophic 
wildfires, but also to ensure adequate resources and personnel 
are available to respond to them.
    Since coming to Congress and assuming my role as Ranking 
Member of the House Agricultural Committee's Forestry 
Subcommittee, it has been my goal to work to increase our 
nation's ability to respond to these wildfires. As part of that 
goal, I was proud to work in a bipartisan manner to introduce 
this bill, the Civilian Conservation Center Enhancement Act.
    This legislation takes a number of steps to improve and 
expand the wildland firefighting workforce by utilizing 
Civilian Conservation Centers, or we call them CCCs, which are 
operated by the U.S. Forest Service under Job Corps. CCCs 
provide important training and employment opportunities in 
natural resources conservation. The forest operates right now 
24 CCCs around the country, and we have 3 in Oregon. They 
already play an important role in supporting wildland 
firefighting activities.
    In fact, Job Corps actually estimates that CCC students 
provided almost 205,000 hours of support to Federal 
firefighters in 2022. This track record is why it is critical 
to build on the successes that CCCs have already had.
    This legislation would do this through several means. It 
directs the Forest Service to create and pilot a specialized 
training program for wildland firefighting, including forestry 
practices and rangeland management. The Forest Service would 
also be directed to conduct an assessment of workforce 
shortages and needs at public land agencies and related 
agencies in an effort to determine better strategies for 
recruitment and workforce expansion, as well as retention.
    Further, this legislation would set a firm goal that the 
Forest Service hire 300 CCC graduates per year into wildland 
firefighting roles or other critical workforce needs. To do so, 
the legislation ensures that the Forest Service can provide 
signing bonuses to graduates, and that the Forest Service has 
direct hiring authority, which they currently do not have, for 
graduates of the CCC programs.
    The CCC Enhancement Act also benefits CCC graduates 
themselves. It ensures that they actually have a clearer career 
pathway available to them following graduation. Importantly, it 
also clarifies that the Forest Service can pay CCC students for 
the work that they are already doing to improve and maintain 
Federal lands.
    Taken together, the pieces of this legislation will help to 
address our wildland firefighting workforce shortage, build on 
the successes that we have already seen through these CCCs, and 
provide pathways to careers for students seeking to protect and 
preserve our nation's natural resources. Quite simply, it is a 
critical step in mitigating the harm that increasingly common 
and severe wildfires cause.
    I will close by once again thanking my co-leads on this 
legislation, Congressmen Guthrie, Edwards, Hoyle, as well as 
the stakeholders we have worked with to advance this 
legislation. I also want to thank Senators Merkley and Daines 
for their leadership on this on the Senate side. And finally, I 
want to thank one of our Oregonians, Linda Goodman, a respected 
former regional forester and former Forest Service Job Corps 
Director, for making the trip out here from Oregon to be able 
to testify today.
    Once again, thank you, Chair Tiffany, for holding this 
hearing and considering this important step forward in 
addressing wildland firefighting.
    Mr. Tiffany. Yes, thank you for your testimony, 
Representative Salinas. I would now like to recognize 
Representative Stansbury in regards to H.R. 5665.
    The floor is yours for 5 minutes.

STATEMENT OF THE HON. MELANIE A. STANSBURY, A REPRESENTATIVE IN 
             CONGRESS FROM THE STATE OF NEW MEXICO

    Ms. Stansbury. All right. Well, thank you, Mr. Chairman, 
and good afternoon, everyone. It is wonderful to be here with 
you this afternoon. I want to thank our Chairman for holding 
this hearing to consider all of the legislation that is on the 
docket today, but in particular our bipartisan bill, H.R. 5665, 
which is called Promoting Accessibility on Federal Lands Act of 
2023.
    I also want to extend a welcome to all of our witnesses who 
are here today and, in particular, my dear friend, Ms. Hall-
Rivera, who I worked with at OMB many moons ago, when we had 
different lives.
    And also, I wanted to thank Vote Vets Foundation for being 
here today and providing testimony on our bill. This 
organization is a non-profit, non-partisan group that works to 
strengthen the voices of our veterans. And, of course, this 
seems especially apropos as we are coming off of Veterans Day 
weekend.
    And while we are here and I see some veterans in the 
audience, I want to say thank you for your service, for your 
sacrifice. Every day is Veterans Day, and we appreciate your 
service to our great nation. So, thank you.
    I also want to take a moment to thank REI and Hispanics 
Enjoying Camping, Hunting, and the Outdoors, or what is also 
known as ECHO, for supporting our legislation.
    And to tell you a little bit about our bill, we introduced 
this bill in honor of Public Lands Day and Veterans Day, and 
this bill would direct the United States Forest Service and 
Department of the Interior to conduct a comprehensive 
assessment of accessibility options for trails, campsites, 
facilities, and public lands so that all people, regardless of 
their physical limitations and abilities, will have access to 
our public lands.
    More than 45 percent of New Mexico's lands are publicly 
owned, from the Cibola National Forest which overlooks my 
hometown of Albuquerque, New Mexico, or the world-class skiing 
and recreation of Santa Fe National Forest. These places are 
homes to unique heritage and culture that stretches back to 
time immemorial, including for our traditional pueblo and 
tribal communities, for our Hispano communities who have been 
there for countless generations, and all who enjoy these 
beautiful public spaces.
    These spaces are crucial for connecting between people and 
our sacred lands. They provide opportunities for our 
communities to inspire stewardship for education, recreation, 
health benefits, and, of course, also for cultural activities.
    Under the leadership of Secretary Haaland and Secretary 
Vilsack, our Federal land management agencies have invested 
heavily in the Great American Outdoors Act and the Inflation 
Reduction Act to help make our public lands more publicly 
accessible. But despite these efforts and the Americans with 
Disabilities Act, the ADA, and nationwide efforts by our 
Federal agencies to expand access for our family members and 
community members who live with disabilities, the reality is 
that many of our trails, our beaches, and our campgrounds are 
still not available and accessible to everyone.
    America's public lands are for everyone, regardless of who 
you are and how you access them. This legislation, which I am 
co-leading with my fellow bipartisan supporter, Representative 
Ciscomani from the great state of Arizona, will help us to 
identify those disparities in access and help to take another 
critical step forward in making sure that these lands are 
accessible to every single American.
    So, I want to thank you, Mr. Chairman, for holding this 
hearing.
    With that, I yield back.
    Mr. Tiffany. Thank you, Representative Stansbury. I would 
now like to turn to the Chairman of the Full Committee, Mr. 
Westerman, in regards to his BIOCHAR Act.

  STATEMENT OF THE HON. BRUCE WESTERMAN, A REPRESENTATIVE IN 
              CONGRESS FROM THE STATE OF ARKANSAS

    Mr. Westerman. Thank you, Chairman Tiffany, and thank you 
to the witnesses today. It is nice to come to a hearing where 
we are talking predominantly about trees. I have always said 
that trees are the answer; what is your question? Trees are 
something that should be bipartisan. We should all be able to 
come here and look at the benefit that trees and forests 
provide to us on many different levels, and I look forward to 
participating in the hearing and in future markups on these 
bills.
    There are a couple of bills I am particularly interested in 
today, the first one being the BIOCHAR Act.
    Biochar may seem like a strange concept for a congressional 
hearing, but I think it is something that the more we 
understand it, the more we all can get behind it. It is not a 
new product. The Incans were making biochar thousands of years 
ago in the Amazon, and you can go dig it up today because it 
lasts that long when you put it in the soil. You heat wood 
without oxygen, you drive off the volatiles which you can 
condense into transportation fuels or you can generate 
electricity from them. I was actually in a meeting earlier in 
my office with a company that is looking to invest a multi 
billion dollars in sustainable aviation fuel basically using 
the process that you make biochar with.
    Biochar can be anywhere from 75 percent to 99.9 percent 
pure carbon. The density of carbon in wood is about 45 to 50 
percent. This nice wood lectern here has stored carbon in it 
from many years ago, when the tree that this wood came from was 
performing photosynthesis and storing that carbon in the wood.
    The BIOCHAR Act would provide demonstration facilities in 
every region of the Forest Service and with the Bureau of Land 
Management to look at specific species, specific technology, 
and how you apply this biochar to the agriculture in the region 
to make the lands more productive.
    And what we know about biochar is it is like a sponge in 
the soil that holds moisture, it holds nutrients, makes the 
moisture and the nutrients available for plant uptake, which 
makes your agriculture land more productive. So, we could thin 
our overgrown forest to make biochar, have renewable energy and 
carbon sequestration, and make agricultural land more 
productive, which sounds like multiple wins if we utilize that 
technology, not to mention create jobs in rural areas across 
the country.
    The other bill that we will be talking about today is 
Representative Barr's White Oak Act. And as the only forester 
in Congress I often get asked, ``What is your favorite tree?'' 
And I say, if you are talking about hard woods, it is white 
oak, or Quercus alba.
    Several of us went to the Yale School of Forestry to do a 
little field trip up there. And if you look at the emblem for 
the School of Forestry, it has a couple of white oak leaves and 
acorns on it. It is a very important tree to our country. A lot 
of things are made from white oak. It also provides tremendous 
wildlife habitat, and it has wood that is unique in that the 
grain structure of the wood prevents liquids from going through 
and vapors from seeping out. So, if you make bourbon, it has to 
be made in a new white oak barrel.
    We have a lot of white oak in our country today, but the 
problem is it is kind of like our demographics with our human 
population. It is getting older, and we don't have enough young 
people. We have a lot of big old white oak trees, but we don't 
have the new young trees coming on for the future. So, if you 
are going to have a problem with forestry, this is more of an 
easy one to solve, where you can go in and promote 
regeneration, as we call it in forestry, to get more young 
white oak trees out there so that we will have great white oak 
forests for the future.
    I am very excited about that and the other bills that we 
have in this hearing that others have talked about. I look 
forward to the testimony from all of the panels.
    I yield back.
    Mr. Tiffany. I think we saw a biochar demonstration in 
Palau back in August. Thank you for the testimony, Chairman 
Westerman.
    And now we have Ranking Member Neguse for an opening 
statement.

STATEMENT OF THE HON. JOE NEGUSE, A REPRESENTATIVE IN CONGRESS 
                   FROM THE STATE OF COLORADO

    Mr. Neguse. Good afternoon. Thank you to Chairman Tiffany 
for his indulgence and to Members on both sides of the aisle 
for participating in today's incredibly important legislative 
hearing.
    And my apologies on the delay. I was in the Rules 
Committee, which was a bit more contentious than this one. It 
is good to be back in the Federal Lands Subcommittee hearing. 
No fights breaking out, no elbowing or anything like that. 
Anyway, we are grateful for, I think, the bipartisan approach 
and the collegial approach.
    Mr. Tiffany. It is early in the hearing.
    Mr. Neguse. It is early in the hearing.
    [Laughter.]
    Mr. Neguse. But the collegial approach that Chairman 
Tiffany and I have been able to establish.
    And I will say, and he has heard me say this quite a bit, 
but in the 117th Congress when I had the privilege of chairing 
this Committee and, of course, serving as Chairman during the 
course of the 117th Congress, this Subcommittee was the most 
prolific in terms of volume of hearings held for bills, and was 
a member services Committee. And, of course, Mr. Fulcher knows 
that, having served as the Ranking Member in the prior 
Congress. On a bipartisan basis, we produced more legislative 
hearings on bills from Members than any other Subcommittee in 
the U.S. Congress.
    And I will say I am heartened that Chairman Tiffany and, of 
course, under the leadership of Chairman Westerman and Ranking 
Member Grijalva, have taken a similar approach. And that is, of 
course, evidenced by today's hearing with six bills and, of 
course, including two Democratic bills, which we are certainly 
grateful for.
    I would just simply say, with respect to the two bills that 
have been introduced by colleagues on my side of the aisle, I 
could not be more supportive of both, and grateful to their 
respective sponsors for bringing them forward. Of course, that 
includes Representative Salinas' bill, H.R. 4353, the Civilian 
Conservation Center Enhancement Act of 2023, which represents a 
creative response to the call for increased attention towards 
fire response, which is something I know she has worked on 
quite a bit throughout her career, going back to her time in 
the Oregon legislature, and essentially would build staffing 
support throughout our national forests in what I think is a 
creative approach. So, I am certainly excited about that bill 
and hearing the testimony on the same.
    Secondly, I am also very excited about the bill that 
Representative Stansbury has introduced, again on a bipartisan 
basis, H.R. 5665, the Promoting Accessibility on Federal Lands 
Act of 2023, which, as we have heard, would require the 
Department of the Interior and the U.S. Forest Service to 
conduct a comprehensive assessment of accessibility options 
across the lands under their jurisdiction.
    This is something that we hear often about. I say ``we,'' 
my district, my office. I represent a district that is over 50 
percent Federal public lands, larger than nine states, as I 
remind my colleagues from the Eastern Seaboard often, and I am 
grateful to Representative Stansbury for taking the initiative 
to raise this flag on this particular issue, which I think will 
inure to the benefit of countless citizens across our country.
    So, I hope that we can consider both bills in short order 
in the Full Committee and get them to the Floor.
    With that, I will yield back the balance of my time.

    Mr. Tiffany. Thank you, Representative Neguse. We are now 
going to move on to our second panel.
    Let me remind the witnesses that under Committee Rules, you 
must limit your oral statement to 5 minutes, but your entire 
statement will appear in the hearing record.
    To begin your testimony, press the ``on'' button on the 
microphone.
    We use timing lights. When you begin, the light will turn 
green. At the end of 5 minutes, the light will turn red, and I 
will ask you to please complete your statement.
    I would now like to introduce Mr. Edwin Oshiba, Principal 
Deputy Assistant Secretary for Energy, Installations, and 
Environment at the Department of the Air Force.
    Mr. Oshiba, welcome, and you are recognized for 5 minutes.

STATEMENT OF EDWIN OSHIBA, PRINCIPAL DEPUTY ASSISTANT SECRETARY 
 OF THE AIR FORCE FOR ENERGY, INSTALLATIONS, AND ENVIRONMENT, 
          DEPARTMENT OF THE AIR FORCE, WASHINGTON, DC

    Mr. Oshiba. Thank you, Chairman Tiffany, Ranking Member 
Neguse, and esteemed members of the Subcommittee, thank you for 
conducting this hearing to discuss H.R. 6070, a vital bill to 
amend the Military Lands Withdrawal Act of 1999 to clarify the 
authority of the Department of Defense to conduct certain vital 
military readiness activities at the Nevada Test and Training 
Range, or NTTR.
    This hearing is timely. We are nearing the end of this 
legislative cycle, and if this legislation is not enacted we 
will continue to compromise realistic, mission-oriented 
training against our peer adversaries, which puts our nation at 
risk.
    The NTTR is the Air Force's premier location for training 
our warfighters and testing our most advanced weapons 
technologies. Every year, the Air Force flies approximately 
40,000 sorties on the NTTR, training approximately 12,000 joint 
warfighters for combat operations.
    Notwithstanding the training value of the NTTR, I want to 
assure this Subcommittee that the Department of the Air Force 
takes its commitment to conservation, preservation, and 
enhancement of natural resources very seriously. The Integrated 
Natural Resources Management Plan prepared for the NTTR 
demonstrates how the Air Force seeks to achieve these 
commitments exemplified by conducting wildlife and vegetation 
surveys, performing habitat enhancement and restoration, and 
coordinating with the Bureau of Land Management, Nevada 
Department of Wildlife, U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service, and the 
U.S. Geological Survey.
    The range itself has been a vital resource for Air Force 
readiness for over 50 years, but it is no longer adequate. The 
capabilities and technologies of our adversaries have advanced 
to the point where the current constraints on NTTR no longer 
allow our warfighters to train as they will need to fight. The 
Air Force is currently constrained geographically by other land 
uses beyond its control. While the Air Force can simulate 
adversary threat systems, it must also provide the realism to 
simulate how our pilots may encounter those threats spatially 
on the ground. Without that ability, the NTTR will no longer 
provide the capability for simulating real-world threat 
scenarios that will be encountered.
    Having said all of that, I want to make clear that this 
bill does not include a geographic expansion of the range or 
any transfer of jurisdiction. It simply clarifies certain 
military activities that can be conducted in the joint use 
areas of the NTTR, a clarity not existing in the 1999 Military 
Land Withdrawal Act. These additional military activities are: 
the establishment and use of new or existing electronic 
tracking and communication sites, to include up to 15 gravel 
pads 150 feet by 150 feet to place mobile threat emitters; 
maintenance of existing roads to allow access to and periodic 
maintenance of those emitters; and emergency response.
    H.R. 6070 requires these military activities within the 
Joint Use Area on lands under U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service 
primary jurisdiction be discussed and assessed by the 
Interagency Committee and the Inter-Governmental Executive 
Committees to determine if they may be conducted. Both 
Committees were established in the Fiscal Year 2021 National 
Defense Authorization Act, and the Air Force is committed to 
their success.
    It is also important to note the Air Force will comply with 
the National Environmental Policy Act and all other 
environmental laws before undertaking the additional authorized 
activities.
    The added flexibility provided in the legislation was 
carefully developed in coordination with the Department of the 
Interior, the Council on Environmental Quality, the Nevada 
Congressional Delegation, and other stakeholders, and will 
foster continued collaboration. Without this flexibility, the 
Air Force's ability to provide training and testing against 
peer adversaries as directed in the National Defense Strategy 
would be compromised, and our nation's competitive advantage 
would be diminished.
    I respectfully request your support of H.R. 6070, and look 
forward to your questions.

    [The prepared statement of Mr. Oshiba follows:]
   Prepared Statement of Mr. Edwin Oshiba, Principal Deputy Assistant
 Secretary of the Air Force for Energy, Installations and Environment, 
                      Department of the Air Force
                              on H.R. 6070

    Chairman Tiffany, Ranking Member Neguse, and esteemed members of 
this subcommittee, thank you for conducting this hearing to discuss 
H.R. 6070--a vital bill to amend the Military Lands Withdrawal Act of 
1999 to clarify the authority of the Department of Defense (DoD) to 
conduct certain vital military readiness activities at the Nevada Test 
and Training Range or ``NTTR.'' If not enacted, we will continue to 
compromise realistic, mission-oriented training against peer 
adversaries to the Department of the Air Force's (DAF) servicemembers.
    The NTTR is the Air Force's premier location for training our 
warfighters and testing our most advanced weapons technologies. Simply 
put, the NTTR represents an irreplaceable national security treasure as 
the most advanced test and training range in the world. Every year, the 
Air Force flies approximately 40,000 sorties on the NTTR, training 
approximately 12,000 warfighters for combat operations.
    The NTTR is divided into the North and South Ranges, consisting of 
approximately 1.8 and 1.2 million acres, respectively, of withdrawn 
land. The Desert National Wildlife Refuge is the largest national 
wildlife refuge in the contiguous United States, encompassing nearly 
1.6 million acres. About half of the Desert National Wildlife Refuge 
overlaps the lands withdrawn for the NTTR--South Range. This overlap 
area, commonly referred to as the ``Joint Use Area'', consists of 
approximately 846,000 acres. The U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service (USFWS) 
exercises primary jurisdiction over 734,000 acres of Desert National 
Wildlife Refuge lands within the Joint Use Area and secondary 
jurisdiction over the natural and cultural resources within the Air 
Force's primary jurisdiction lands (112,000 acres of designated impact 
areas) in the Joint Use Area.
    As one of the largest federal landowners, the DoD takes its 
commitment to conservation, preservation, and enhancement of natural 
resources very seriously. The Integrated Natural Resources Management 
Plan prepared for the NTTR demonstrates how the Air Force seeks to 
achieve these commitments, exemplified by conducting wildlife and 
vegetation surveys, performing habitat enhancement and restoration, and 
coordinating with the Bureau of Land Management, Nevada Department of 
Wildlife, USFWS, and the U.S. Geological Survey.
    However, while the range has been a vital resource for Air Force 
readiness for over 50 years, it is no longer adequate. The capabilities 
and technologies of our adversaries have advanced to the point where 
the current constraints on the NTTR no longer allow our warfighters to 
train as they will need to fight. A foundational component to ensure 
that the NTTR remains at the leading edge of tactical training and 
operational test and evaluation of our current and future weapons 
systems is ready access to capable range infrastructure. Emitters being 
acquired by the DoD/DAF have far greater capabilities to simulate 
adversarial threat systems and therefore provide our men and women the 
fidelity and realism they need to train as they would fight when called 
upon. Adversary threat systems have increased detection distances, 
which put our pilots in jeopardy at greater distances from a potential 
target or intended mission objective. Our emitters simulate these 
capabilities which then teach our pilots how to respond with the 
appropriate tactics, techniques, and procedures, and to exploit 
aircraft characteristics and capabilities.
    As currently configured, the Air Force is constrained 
geographically by other land uses beyond its control. While the Air 
Force can simulate adversary threat systems in terms of spectrum 
attributes, it must also provide the realism to simulate how our pilots 
may encounter those threats spatially on the ground. Without that 
ability, the fidelity of the training is lost, and the NTTR will no 
longer provide the capability for simulating real-world threat 
scenarios that will be encountered.
    The Air Force supports Representative Amodei's bill, which mirrors 
the Administration's Fiscal Year 2024 NDAA proposal as set forth in 
section 2844 of H.R. 2670. The Administration's proposal was developed 
in close coordination with USFWS, the Department of the Interior, the 
Council on Environmental Quality, the Department of the Air Force, the 
Department of Defense, and the Office of Management and Budget. It is a 
narrow provision which effectively balances the need to modernize the 
NTTR while preserving the purposes for which the Desert National 
Wildlife Refuge was established.
    This bill does not include an expansion of the range or a transfer 
of jurisdiction. Rather, this provision clarifies certain military 
activities that can be conducted in the joint use areas of NTTR and 
clarifies membership on the two committees which advise the Air Force 
and the Fish and Wildlife Service regarding their respective management 
obligations.

    These additional military activities are:

     Establishment and use of new or existing electronic 
            tracking and communication sites, to include up to 15 
            gravel pads (150 feet by 150 feet) to place mobile 
            emitters;

     Maintenance of existing roads to allow access to emitters 
            and periodic maintenance; and

     Emergency response.

    While these activities could be undertaken on land under sole DAF 
jurisdiction, to include impact areas within the overlapping area (land 
that is within both NTTR and the Desert National Wildlife Refuge), H.R. 
6070 requires the additional military activities within the joint use 
area on lands under Fish and Wildlife Service primary jurisdiction be 
discussed and assessed by the Interagency Committee (comprised of the 
DAF & USFWS) and the Intergovernmental Executive Committee (IEC) 
(comprised of the DAF, USFWS, state and local governments, tribes, and 
the public) to determine if they may be conducted. Those committees 
were established in the Fiscal Year 2021 National Defense Authorization 
Act, and the Air Force is committed to their success. It is important 
to note, the Air Force will comply with the National Environmental 
Policy Act (NEPA) and all other applicable environmental laws before 
undertaking the additional authorized activities. Additionally, those 
military activities proposed to take place in lands of the joint use 
area under the primary jurisdiction of FWS are subject to the National 
Wildlife Refuge System Administration Act, as amended, and would 
require a compatibility determination.
    The Desert National Wildlife Refuge is an irreplaceable national 
asset. The NTTR too is an irreplaceable national asset. H.R. 6070 
leverages the NTTR's continued value to our national security in a 
manner which is protective of the Refuge. H.R. 6070 will enable the 
NTTR to fully support current or future operational test and training 
requirements. The added flexibility provided in the legislation, which 
has been developed in coordination with the other departments, will 
foster continued collaboration between the Air Force and the USFWS. 
Without this flexibility, the Air Force's ability and duty to provide 
training and testing against peer adversaries as directed in the 
National Defense Strategy would be compromised and our nation's 
competitive advantage would be diminished. I respectfully request your 
support of H.R. 6070 and look forward to your questions.

                                 ______
                                 

    Mr. Tiffany. Thank you very much, Mr. Oshiba. I would now 
like to introduce Jeff Rupert, Director of the Office of 
Wildland Fire at the Department of the Interior.
    Director Rupert, welcome back. You have 5 minutes.

 STATEMENT OF JEFF RUPERT, DIRECTOR, OFFICE OF WILDLAND FIRE, 
        U.S. DEPARTMENT OF THE INTERIOR, WASHINGTON, DC

    Mr. Rupert. Thank you. Good afternoon, Chairman Tiffany, 
Ranking Member Neguse, members of the Subcommittee, and 
Chairman Westerman. Thank you for the opportunity to appear 
before you this afternoon to provide testimony on the wildland 
fire and forest management bills being discussed today.
    This legislation provides important tools and authorities 
that support the Department of the Interior's ongoing 
collaborative efforts to reduce wildfire risk, support wildland 
firefighters, and improve the resiliency of our nation's lands. 
We appreciate the Subcommittee's interest in making meaningful 
progress towards addressing these issues and providing the 
support necessary to protect communities, the public, and 
wildland firefighters.
    Climate change and drought continue to intensify wildfire 
activity across the country. This past year, local impacts from 
wildfires were devastating. The Maui Fire destroyed the entire 
town of Lahaina, with 99 confirmed deaths as of last week. The 
Northwest and Southwest also experienced broad regional impacts 
and wildfires that destroyed structures, caused mass 
evacuations, and disrupted people's lives. Canada experienced 
the worst wildfires in its history, and smoke from those 
Canadian fires had a substantial impact on our air quality in 
the United States for most of the summer.
    With the support of the Bipartisan Infrastructure Law we 
are tackling the climate crisis, working to reduce wildfire 
risk, and improving wildfire resiliency in our national lands. 
Bipartisan Infrastructure Law funding supported efforts this 
past year to complete over 2.5 million acres of hazardous fuels 
treatment on interior lands, a nearly 30 percent increase over 
last year. So far this year, BIL funding has also made possible 
supplemental pay benefits for more than 4,500 Interior 
firefighters.
    However, Interior has reached the firefighting pay cliff 
that we had hoped to avoid, making supplemental payments using 
interim funding and interim authority that is provided in the 
current continuing resolution. We need Congress to take action 
to permanently fix wildland firefighter pay, otherwise we 
anticipate that a significant number of Federal wildland 
firefighters will look for work elsewhere. This will leave the 
interagency wildland fire community with reduced capacity to 
respond to wildfires, and will undermine the progress we have 
started to make with increasing fuels reduction work.
    Notably, the Bipartisan Infrastructure Law Wildland Fire 
Mitigation and Management Commission submitted its final report 
and recommendations to Congress. The Commission recognized the 
urgency of addressing wildfire risk by being proactive across 
all areas of wildland fire management. Key to the Commission's 
work is reducing wildfire risk through collaborative efforts 
between tribal, Federal, state, local, and private partners.
    H.R. 4235, the Wildfire Technology Demonstration, 
Evaluation, Modernization, and Optimization Act, establishes a 
wildfire technology test bed, to pilot a program to improve 
wildfire prevention, detection, communication, and mitigation 
technologies. The Department supports H.R. 4235, and would like 
to work with the sponsor on technical changes to broaden the 
participants and technologies identified in the bill.
    H.R. 4353, the Civilian Conservation Center Enhancement 
Act, establishes centers to train youth in forest and rangeland 
management, wildland fire management, and other mission areas. 
The bill also establishes a wildland firefighter housing 
program. The Department supports the goals of the legislation, 
and would like to work with the sponsor on technical changes to 
ensure that the interests of the Interior are addressed in the 
training and workforce development provisions of the bill.
    H.R. 4717, Locally Led Restoration Act of 2023, amends HFRA 
to provide public and private entities the opportunity to 
propose vegetation removal stewardship contracts. The 
Department supports the bill with modifications to clarify the 
contract awarding processes.
    H.R. 5282, the White Oak Resilience Act, requires 
assessment of white oak presence and restoration potential, and 
creates white oak regeneration pilot projects on DOI lands. The 
Department supports the goals of H.R. 5582, and would like to 
work with the sponsor on technical changes.
    The Department also recognizes the potential value of 
biochar as a tool to help reduce wildfire risk. We look forward 
to working with the bill's sponsor on this topic and future 
biochar legislation, including the Biochar Innovations 
Opportunity for Conservation, Health, and Advancement Research 
Act.
    Finally, the Bureau of Land Management has submitted a 
statement for the record on H.R. 5665, the Promoting 
Accessibility on Federal Lands Act. If you have any questions 
on that bill, I would be happy to take them back to BLM for a 
response.
    Thank you again for the opportunity to provide testimony on 
these bills, and the Department looks forward to continuing to 
work with sponsors and this Committee.
    That concludes my statement. Thank you.

    [The prepared statement of Mr. Rupert follows:]
  Prepared Statement of Jeffery Rupert, Director, Office of Wildland 
                 Fire, U.S. Department of the Interior
  on H.R. 4235, H.R. 4353, H.R. 4717, H.R. 5582, and Discussion Draft
                       of H.R. ____, BIOCHAR Act

    Chairman Tiffany, Ranking Member Neguse, and members of the 
Subcommittee, thank you for the opportunity to provide testimony on the 
wildland fire management and forest management bills being considered 
today. Collectively, this legislation provides important tools, 
authorities, and resources that support the Department of the 
Interior's (Department) on-going collaborative efforts to reduce 
wildfire risk, support wildland firefighters, and improve the 
resiliency of our nation's forests, rangelands, and grasslands. We 
appreciate the Subcommittee's interest in making meaningful progress 
towards addressing these issues and providing the support necessary to 
protect communities, the public, and wildland firefighters from the 
devastation of wildfires.
    Climate change, drought, and invasive weeds continue to intensify 
wildfire activity. According to the National Interagency Coordination 
Center, during this past year more than 50,000 wildfires burned over 
2.5 million acres. While the total number of wildfires exceeded the 10-
year average of 49,830 wildfires, the total number of acres burned was 
well below. Nevertheless, we saw significant wildfire activity in 
several geographic areas of the country, including the Southern and 
Southwest Geographic Areas, that was more consistent with the 10-year 
average trends. The peak deployment of federal wildland firefighting 
personnel totaled more than 20,400 personnel in late August, and 
overall resource availability continued to be a challenge, including 
firefighters and aerial assets during peak periods.
    The Federal interagency wildland fire management community 
supported our Canadian partners who experienced their worst wildfire 
season on record. A total of 45.7 million acres of land burned 
throughout their country, which is more than six times the 10-year 
average of acres burned in the United States. Under our mutual wildfire 
assistance agreement with Canada, the United States deployed nearly 
2,500 wildland fire fighting personnel to Canada, which was in 
Preparedness Level 5 consecutively from early May to September.
    The Bipartisan Infrastructure Law (BIL) provides a once-in-a-
generation investment in wildland fire management that is helping to 
tackle the climate crisis and improve the wildfire resiliency of our 
nation's lands. To date, the Department has allocated a total of more 
than $640 million in BIL funding to address wildfire risk on Federal 
lands. These investments support our efforts to increase the pace and 
scale of fuels management projects. This past year, the Department 
completed a total 2.5 million acres of treatments, which is a 30 
percent increase over last year's treatment level. Maintaining these 
accomplishments will require a commitment to a long-term, sustained 
investment.
    Additionally, BIL funding supported $126 million in supplemental 
pay for wildland firefighters. In fiscal year 2023, a total of 4,550 
Department wildland firefighters have benefited from these payments. 
However, the Department has reached the firefighter ``pay cliff'' and 
is now funding the supplemental payments using authority and funding 
provided for in the current Continuing Resolution, which runs through 
November 17. The Administration supports a long-term solution to 
firefighter pay and the legislative proposals that were submitted to 
Congress with the Fiscal Year 2024 President's Budget to permanently 
address this issue. Unless Congress takes action, we anticipate that a 
significant number of federal wildland firefighters will leave the 
workforce and look for work elsewhere.
    Finally, the BIL authorized Wildland Fire Mitigation and Management 
Commission recently finalized and submitted its report to Congress. The 
report includes a total of 148 recommendations that are intended to 
foster collaborative efforts to improve all facets of wildland fire 
management and solutions relevant to all levels of government, 
including local, state, Federal, and Tribal and other public and 
private entities. The Commission's recommendations recognize the 
urgency of addressing wildfire risk through partnerships and cross-
boundary actions; being proactive in pre- and post-fire activities; 
expanding the use of prescribed fire and cultural burning; addressing 
wildland firefighting workforce reforms; and investing in training, 
research, development, and technology. A number of the bills being 
considered today help advance several of the key recommendations that 
are included in the Commission's report.
H.R. 4235, Wildfire Technology Demonstration, Evaluation, 
        Modernization, and Optimization Act

    H.R. 4235, the Wildfire Technology Demonstration, Evaluation, 
Modernization, and Optimization Act, requires the Secretaries of the 
Interior and Agriculture to establish a wildfire technology testbed 
pilot program to improve wildfire prevention, detection, communication, 
and mitigation technologies. We appreciate the sponsors' support for 
real-time technology application testing and recognition of the 
important role that federal agencies and existing interagency wildland 
fire coordinating groups play in facilitating the use and advancement 
of new technologies.
    The Department supports the goals of H.R. 4235 but would like to 
work with the sponsors on technical modifications to the bill. These 
include expanding the list of ``covered agencies'' identified in 
Section 2(a)(1) to include other science-based organizations. For 
example, the U.S. Geological Survey is actively engaged in a number of 
technological areas that are referenced in the bill, including advanced 
computing; analytics; artificial intelligence; remote sensing; 
processing and sensor technologies; and dashboard and other advanced 
decision-support technologies.
    Additionally, the Department recommends adding pre- and post-
wildfire activities, such as environmental and fuels treatment 
monitoring and post-wildfire assessments and monitoring to the list of 
key technology priorities that are included in section 2(c)(2). Also, 
the priority for testing emerging technologies should not be 
unnecessarily restricted to those entities identified in Section 2(e). 
Finally, the Department recommends providing additional time to 
complete the initial report considering the staffing requirements and 
the time necessary to consider various technological needs and to 
solicit proposals from partners.
H.R. 4353, Civilian Conservation Center Enhancement Act of 2023

    H.R. 4353, the Civilian Conservation Center Enhancement Act, would 
authorize the Secretaries of the Interior and Agriculture to establish 
Civilian Conservation Centers in alignment with the Job Corps 
provisions of the Workforce Innovation and Opportunity Act. The centers 
would train disadvantaged youth in forest and rangeland management, 
wildland fire management, and other mission specific areas. Each agency 
would be required to hire 300 graduates annually to contribute to 
wildland firefighter and other workforce needs, provide for a signing 
bonus, and authorize direct hire authority for program graduates. H.R. 
4353 would also establish a housing pilot program for wildland 
firefighters and other employees.
    The Department supports the goals of H.R. 4353 but would like to 
work with the sponsor of the legislation on technical changes to the 
bill. These include modifications to section 303 to ensure that the 
pilots specifically advance the mission of the Department of the 
Interior and that the Department maintains involvement in the 
development of the curricula and course offerings that are the focus of 
the experimental research and demonstration pilots. The Department also 
recommends that pre- and post-wildfire activities be included in the 
list of curricula and courses. This is critical to ensuring that the 
workforce and program needs that are unique and essential to the 
Department are integrated into the pilots.
    In addition, the Department would welcome the opportunity to work 
with the sponsor on provisions regarding signing bonuses, pay setting, 
and recruitment goals. Finally, the Department recognizes the important 
role that youth have in developing the next generation of federal 
employees and works collaboratively with the Office of Personnel 
Management to assess the needs for tools like direct hire authority 
that promote efficient hiring for wildland fire management.
H.R. 4717, Locally Led Restoration Act of 2023

    H.R. 4717 amends the Healthy Forests Restoration Act to provide a 
private person, or other public or private entity, with the opportunity 
to propose stewardship contracts to remove vegetation and requires that 
10 percent of the timber covered by the contract is salvage--including 
wildfire kill, beetle kill, and dead or dying organic material. Under 
the bill, the BLM and the Forest Service are required to solicit 
proposals annually for the salvage-related stewardship contracts and 
have the authority to either accept or deny proposals within 120 days. 
Further, contracts must conform to resource management plans and forest 
plans and may not be carried out within National Wilderness 
Preservation System lands, inventoried roadless areas, or any area 
where removal of vegetation is prohibited by Federal statute. The BLM 
defers to the USDA regarding the bill's provisions affecting the 
management of lands under their jurisdiction.
    Generally, the BLM either advertises a solicitation for stewardship 
contracts or publishes a Notice of Funding Opportunity for stewardship 
agreements. H.R. 4717 would provide an additional path to stewardship 
contracting proposals. The Department supports the goal of the bill to 
promote broader use of the stewardship contracting authority and would 
like the opportunity to work with the sponsor on modifications. For 
example, we recommend modifications to define the term ``best value,'' 
clarify whether the Department is intended to award the contract only 
to the proposing entity and extend the exclusion of contracts to lands 
in the National Landscape Conservation System.
H.R. 5582, White Oak Resilience Act

    H.R. 5582, the White Oak Resilience Act, would require the 
Secretary of the Interior to assess the presence of white oak on land 
under the Department's jurisdiction and the potential to restore white 
oak forests on such land. The bill would also require the Secretary to 
conduct five pilot projects on DOI lands to restore and regenerate 
white oak. The Department defers to the Department of Agriculture with 
respect to land under the jurisdiction of the Forest Service.
    White oaks provide ecological benefits as part of complex, 
functioning ecosystems, and the Department supports the goals of H.R. 
5582, but would like to work with the sponsor of the legislation on 
technical amendments to the bill. The Department recommends the 
addition of Tribal representation to the White Oak Restoration 
Initiative Coalition established in Section 2 of the bill and revision 
of Section 5 of the legislation to broaden funding availability to 
include the Department of the Interior. The Department also recommends 
extending the authority contained in Section 6 to authorize Civilian 
Conservation Centers to provide assistance in carrying out 
reforestation work on Department of the Interior lands. Additionally, 
the Department recommends that the sponsor consider addressing factors 
that may be impacting the health and resiliency of white oak 
ecosystems, such as invasive species, disease, changing climate 
conditions, and fragmentation of forest land, and avoid creating white 
oak monocultures which could negatively impact biodiversity. The 
Department also notes there are several species of white oak. There may 
be a benefit to clarifying which species of white oak the bill is 
intended to cover so that the Department can prepare to take the 
appropriate restoration actions.
Discussion Draft of H.R. ____, Biochar Innovations and Opportunities 
        for Conservation, Health, and Advancements in Research Act 
        (BIOCHAR Act)

    The Department notes its strong preference to testify on bills 
after they have been introduced. We are providing the following 
preliminary comments on the bill, but the Department would like to 
preserve the opportunity to submit additional technical input on the 
bill after it is introduced, if necessary.
    The BIOCHAR Act discussion draft directs USDA and DOI to establish 
demonstration projects on Forest Service and BLM-managed public lands 
to support the development and commercialization of biochar. It also 
authorizes a competitive grant program to carry out research and 
development.
    Biochar is created when plant materials--such as wood, bark, 
switchgrass and the like--generally referred to as ``biomass''--are 
heated in a low or no oxygen atmosphere. Biomass resulting from fuels 
reduction treatments or logging activities can be used to produce 
biochar which can then be used to enrich soil and sequester carbon that 
would otherwise be released into the atmosphere if biomass were left 
aboveground to decompose, or if it were burned.
    The BLM has explored uses for biochar as early as 2012 through an 
agreement with Utah State University, Utah Biomass Resources Group. 
More recently, in 2023, the BLM and Forest Service generated biochar 
from otherwise unusable biomass resulting from the 2020 Holiday Farm 
Fire in Oregon, and continue to study how biochar can be used to 
benefit soil as well as the cost of generating biochar relative to 
other biomass use alternatives. The Department is open to further 
research regarding developments of biochar technology and efforts to 
improve cost efficiency of its use.
Conclusion

    Thank you again for the opportunity to provide testimony on these 
important bills. The Department looks forward to continuing to work 
with the sponsors and the Committee on these important wildland fire 
management and forest management bills.

                                 ______
                                 

    Mr. Tiffany. Thank you, Director Rupert. I now recognize 
Ms. Jaelith Hall-Rivera, Deputy Chief of State, Private, and 
Tribal Forestry at the U.S. Forest Service.
    Deputy Chief Hall-Rivera, you have 5 minutes. Welcome back.

   STATEMENT OF JAELITH HALL-RIVERA, DEPUTY CHIEF OF STATE, 
  PRIVATE, AND TRIBAL FORESTRY, FOREST SERVICE, U.S. DEPT. OF 
                  AGRICULTURE, WASHINGTON, DC

    Ms. Hall-Rivera. Thank you, sir. Chairman Tiffany, Ranking 
Member Neguse, members of the Subcommittee and Full Committee, 
thank you for this opportunity to provide the perspective of 
the USDA Forest Service on six of the public lands bills under 
consideration today. I am Jaelith Hall-Rivera, Deputy Chief of 
State, Private, and Tribal Forestry in the USDA Forest Service.
    The Forest Service manages 193 million acres of land for 
multiple uses and benefits, provides technical and financial 
assistance to state and private forestry agencies, and is the 
largest forestry research organization in the world. The bills 
that I am here to testify on today vary in specifics, but are 
trying to help the Forest Service tackle natural resource 
challenges, strengthen work with communities and partners, and 
equitably serve all people of America. I look forward to 
discussing these bills with you today.
    H.R. 5582, the White Oak Resilience Act, would establish 
activities to provide for white oak restoration coordinated by 
a coalition of public, state, private, and non-governmental 
organizations. USDA has been heavily involved in white oak 
restoration work with many partners over the years, and 
supports the establishment of this coalition, as well as the 
intent of this bill to promote white oak restoration. We look 
forward to working with the Subcommittee and bill sponsors on 
technical assistance to accomplish the goals of the bill.
    H.R. 4353, the Civilian Conservation Center Enhancement Act 
of 2023, supports specialized training programs focused on 
forestry and rangeland management, wildland firefighting, and 
topics related to our mission. The provisions in this bill 
support the Administration's priorities in wildland fire 
management and workforce development. It would significantly 
expand our capacity to train crews and interns engaged through 
partnerships, as well as Job Corps participants in support of 
workforce development efforts and hiring. USDA looks forward to 
working with Congress on some technical changes to further 
support our workforce capacity and development.
    H.R. 5665, Promoting Accessibility on Federal Lands Act of 
2023, would require USDA to complete a comprehensive assessment 
of various outdoor recreation facilities that we manage to 
determine the accessibility of such facilities for individuals 
with disabilities. USDA strongly supports the intent of H.R. 
5665, and would like to work with the bill's sponsor and the 
Subcommittee on technical improvements to clarify the scope of 
the bill and address our concerns with the timelines it sets 
for completing the assessment.
    H.R. 4235, the Wildfire Technology DEMO Act, would require 
USDA and the Department of the Interior to establish a pilot 
program for new and innovative wildfire prevention, detection, 
communication, and mitigation technologies within 60 days after 
the date of enactment. Much of what is directed in this bill is 
already in the works at the Forest Service, another Federal 
agency. USDA supports the intent of this bill, and looks 
forward to working with the Subcommittee and bill sponsors on 
technical assistance to accomplish the goals of the bill.
    H.R. 4717, Locally Led Restoration Act of 2023, amends the 
Healthy Forest Restoration Act to allow private persons or 
other public or private entities to propose stewardship 
contracting projects under the Stewardship End Result 
Contracting program.
    This bill also adjusts the threshold above which the 
Secretary must advertise timber sales. For low value material 
without good markets, raising the sale threshold enables the 
agency to do more direct sales and have more tools in our 
toolbox to complete forest health and fire risk reduction 
treatments, and we look forward to working with the 
Subcommittee to address some concerns in the bill that are 
noted in our testimony so that we can meet our shared goals to 
expand the use of stewardship contracting and increase the pace 
and scale of our forest health treatments.
    We appreciate the Subcommittee's efforts to expand and 
enhance our authorities and work to reduce wildfire risk. We 
look forward to working with you, and I welcome your questions.
    [The prepared statement of Ms. Hall-Rivera follows:]
Prepared Statement of Jaelith Hall-Rivera, Deputy Chief, State, Private 
  and Tribal Forestry, U.S. Department Of Agriculture--Forest Service
     on H.R. 4235, H.R. 4353, H.R. 4717, H.R. 5582, H.R. 5665, and 
             Discussion Draft of H.R. ____, ``BIOCHAR Act''

    Chairman Tiffany, Ranking Member Neguse, and Members of the 
Subcommittee, thank you for the opportunity to present the views of the 
U.S. Department of Agriculture (USDA), Forest Service, regarding 
various Federal land management bills. USDA defers to the U.S. 
Department of the Interior (DOI) as to the effects of these bills on 
any DOI bureaus and the Federal lands under their jurisdiction.
H.R. 5665, ``Promoting Accessibility on Federal Lands Act of 2023''

    The Forest Service is committed to equitable access for the 
complete range of recreation opportunities for all Americans, in 
alignment with Executive Order 13950, ``Advancing Racial Equity and 
Support for Underserved Communities Through the Federal Government.'' 
This work includes integrating accessibility into the complete range of 
recreation opportunities it offers while protecting natural resources 
and settings so that all people, including people who have disabilities 
have the opportunity to enjoy the great outdoors. Those with permanent 
disabilities are eligible for a free, lifetime pass to National Public 
Recreational Lands, which covers entrance fees to more than 2,000 
sites, including national forests and grasslands. The Forest Service 
provides an Interactive Visitor Map which is a searchable resource for 
accessible sites throughout the National Forest System, including more 
than 4,500 miles of trails on national forests that comply with the 
Forest Service Trail Accessibility Guidelines. With guidance from its 
National Accessibility Program, the Forest Service implements national 
recreation accessiblity law, policy standards, and procedures, 
including implementation of the Architectural Barriers Act, Section 504 
of the Rehabilitation Act, 7 CFR 15, and other related laws and 
regulations. Through Recreation.gov, visitors can more easily identify 
locations and amenities that meet their accessibility needs. Our team 
actively engages with disability advocacy groups to understand the 
needs of the disability community and get their feedback. We are 
putting what we have learned to work through better online reservation 
site design, contact center improvements, and more accessibility 
information available about recreation opportunities on Federal lands.
    H.R. 5665, ``Promoting Accessibility on Federal Lands Act of 
2023,'' requires a comprehensive assessment by USDA (with respect to 
national forests and grasslands) and DOI (with respect to DOI-
administered public lands) of certain Federal trails, campsites, boat 
docks, and outdoor recreation facilities to determine the accessibility 
of such facilities for individuals with disabilities. The bill makes 
this assessment subject to appropriations, specifying that it must be 
carried out not later than 180 days after the date on which 
appropriations are first made available to carry out this provision. 
Existing assessments of trails, campsites, boat docks, and outdoor 
recreation facilities may be utilized to meet the bill's requirement. 
Additionally, USDA and DOI must make the completed assessment publicly 
available on their respective websites.
    USDA strongly supports the intent of H.R. 5665 and would like to 
work with the bill sponsor and the Subcommittee on technical 
improvements to the bill. USDA recommends providing definitions for the 
term ``comprehensive assessment'' to further clarify the scope of the 
deliverable as well as for ``recreation facilities'' to clarify the 
scope of the assessment. USDA has concerns with the 180-day requirement 
in which to complete an assessment of this magnitude given that we 
manage more than 193 million acres of national forests and grasslands. 
We would like to work with the bill sponsor and Subcommittee on a 
reasonable completion target once the scope and scale of the assessment 
are better defined.
H.R. 5582, ``White Oak Resilience Act''

    The White Oak Resilience Act would establish activities to provide 
for white oak restoration.
    Section 2 of this bill would establish the White Oak Restoration 
Initiative Coalition, a voluntary collaborative group of public, State, 
private and non-governmental organizations to coordinate white oak 
restoration in accordance with the White Oak Initiative Coalition 
Charter adopted by the White Oak Initiative Board of Directors. 
Restoration activities would include: making program and policy 
recommendations with respect to policy changes at the Federal and State 
levels to remove impediments to activities designed to improve the 
health, resiliency, and natural regeneration of white oak; adopting or 
modifying Federal and State policies to increase the pace and scale of 
white oak regeneration and resiliency of white oak; enhancing 
communication, coordination, and collaboration between forest 
landowners to improve the health, resiliency, and natural regeneration 
of white oak; addressing research gaps to improve the best available 
science on white oak; outreach to forest landowners with white oak or 
white oak regeneration potential; and improving the quality and 
quantity of white oak tree nurseries.
    In addition, the Federal Advisory Committee Act would not apply to 
this Coalition, and the Secretary of Agriculture may make funds 
available to the White Oak Restoration Initiative Coalition to carry 
out this section from the account established pursuant to section 
1241(f) of the Food Security Act of 1985 (16 U.S.C. 3841(f)).
    The USDA supports the establishment of this coalition. American 
white oak is a cornerstone species occupying more than 104 million 
acres of public and private forestland across much of the eastern and 
central United States. White oak significantly impacts our Nation 
economically, culturally, and environmentally. White oak provides 
critical habitat and food sources to numerous wildlife and is essential 
for industries making forest products such as furniture, flooring, 
cabinetry, and barrels for wine and spirits,
    USDA has been heavily involved in white oak restoration work with 
many partners over the years. With most upland oak acreage in private 
ownership spanning across 20 States, one of the unique attributes of 
white oak restoration is the active cross boundary collaboration and 
participation. This collaboration not only exists with partner 
agencies, but with Tribal representatives, industry, and private 
landowners as well. Currently, 34+ entities financially contribute to 
the long-term sustainability of America's white oak consisting of 
dependent industries, trade associations, conservation organizations, 
agencies, universities, and nonprofits.
    This coalition would add to the tremendous collaborative work 
already in place. Of note, USDA is not specifically mentioned as a part 
of this coalition. We would welcome the opportunity to participate as a 
member of this coalition, and we look forward to working with the 
Subcommittee on this legislation.
    Section 3 requires the establishment of five pilot projects in 
national forests to restore white oak, with at least three to be 
carried out on national forests reserved or withdrawn from the public 
domain. These pilot projects can be carried out through cooperative 
agreements. USDA supports the concept of pilot projects, but we would 
like to clarify the intent of requiring three pilots on ``national 
forests reserved or withdrawn from the public domain,'' since National 
Forest System lands are public lands.
    Section 4 requires DOI to carry out an assessment of their land; 
USDA defers to DOI on this section.
    Section 5 amends the National Forest Foundation Act (16 U.S.C. 
583j-7) adding the White Oak Restoration Fund, allowing for funding to 
be used on white oak restoration activities, beginning one year after 
date of enactment. Section 6 amends the Workforce Innovation and 
Opportunity Act (29 U.S.C. 3197(d)) to include white oak reforestation 
activities, authorizing Job Corps Civilian Conservation Center students 
to assist in reforestation projects. USDA supports work-based learning 
assignments for Civilian Conservation Center students as a component of 
trade training. Under current authorities, Job Corps students 
participate in the full range of forest conservation work within the 
limits of appropriations and capacity.
    Section 7 requires the Forest Service to develop and implement a 
national strategy to increase the capacity of Federal, State, Tribal, 
and private tree nurseries to address the nationwide shortage of tree 
seedlings. The Forest Service recently developed a National 
Reforestation Strategy that includes modernization of Forest Service 
nurseries to increase production of genetically and climatically 
appropriate tree seedlings for reforestation. The Forest Service is 
developing national and regional 10-year implementation plans that 
include the next steps the agency will take to successfully increase 
the pace and scale of reforestation, address existing needs including 
nursery resources, and anticipate future disturbance events. State, 
Tribal, and private tree nurseries are also included in this effort. We 
support the intent to increase the capacity of tree nurseries to grow 
white oak seedlings, but we want to work with the Subcommittee to 
ensure the bill language complements existing efforts.
    Section 8 authorizes USDA to enter a memorandum of understanding 
with a covered land grant college, in consultation with States, 
nonprofit organizations, institutions of higher education, and other 
scientific bodies, to conduct research on various aspects of white oak 
resiliency. We would recommend broadening the list of potential 
partners for this research, including federally recognized Tribes. 
There is a range of research on white oaks that would be of interest to 
the Forest Service and others, including research related to white oak 
regeneration and resilience under climate change and how to retain and 
increase abundance of white oaks on all lands. There are several 
research topics that would be important to this effort, and we look 
forward to working with the Subcommittee and bill sponsors on technical 
assistance to accomplish the goals of this section.
    Section 9 requires the Natural Resources Conservation Service 
(NRCS) to establish a formal initiative on white oak. The Forest 
Service has some of these authorities outlined in the bill through the 
Forest Stewardship Program and would welcome the opportunity to support 
NRCS in developing this program.
    Section 10 provides for additional authorities to be used in 
conjunction with this bill, including good neighbor agreements under 
section 8206 of the 2014 Farm Bill (16 U.S.C. 2113a) and stewardship 
contracting projects under section 604 of the Healthy Forests 
Restoration Act of 2003 (16 U.S.C. 6591c). We support broad use of 
these authorities and look forward to using these authorities in any 
efforts to increase white oak restoration.
    USDA supports the intent of this bill and looks forward to working 
with the Subcommittee and bill sponsors on technical assistance to 
accomplish the goals of the bill.
H.R. 4235, ``Wildfire Technology Demonstration, Evaluation, 
        Modernization, and optimization Act'' or the ``Wildfire 
        Technology DEMO Act''

    The Wildfire Technology DEMO Act would establish a wildfire 
technology Testbed Pilot Program. This Act requires USDA and DOI to 
establish a Pilot Program for new and innovative wildfire prevention, 
detection, communication, and mitigation technologies within 60 days 
after the date of the enactment. The Departments must incorporate the 
pilot program into an existing interagency coordinating group on 
wildfires; identify key technology priority areas with respect to the 
deployment of wildfire prevention, detection, communication, and 
mitigation technologies; and partner each covered entity either with 
the Federal agencies identified as a covered agency to coordinate real-
time and on-the-ground testing of technology during wildland fire 
mitigation activities and training. The bill requires both agencies 
give priority to certain emerging technologies and requires a report 
detailing the Pilot Program no later than one year after date of 
enactment. The authorization for the Pilot Program expires four years 
after the date of establishment.
    Much of what is directed in this bill is already a component of the 
program of work across multiple agencies, including within various 
Forest Service programs and through interagency partnerships. For 
example, the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration has the 
Interagency Council for Advancing Meteorological Services group, 
chartered to advance meteorological services including establishing a 
fire weather test bed which received funding through the Infrastructure 
Investment and Jobs Act. The Dingell Act, Wildland Fire Mitigation and 
Management Commission Report, and the President's Council of Advisors 
on Science and Technology report, along with the Forest Service's 
Wildfire Crisis Strategy, all share portions of what is in the proposed 
legislation. Providing a governing group and leadership direction to 
coordinate these activities would assist in the prioritization and 
implementation of new technologies.
    USDA would like to work with the bill sponsor on some technical 
adjustments in the bill, such as including the Department of Defense in 
the list of covered agencies and replacing the ``existing interagency 
coordinating group on wildfires'' with the named existing group, the 
National Wildfire Coordinating Group. USDA notes that since this bill 
does not provide an appropriation of funding for these additional 
activities, the agency would need to identify funding from existing 
programs to support these activities. Finally, USDA has concerns with 
the 60-day timeframe required to establish this Pilot Program. For a 
joint program with DOI, this timeframe is too short. We would 
appreciate the opportunity to work with the bill sponsor and 
Subcommittee to address these concerns.
    USDA supports the intent of this bill and looks forward to working 
with the Subcommittee and bill sponsors on technical assistance to 
accomplish the goals of the bill.
H.R. ____ (Discussion Draft), Biochar Innovations and Opportunities for 
        Conservation, Health, and Advancements in Research Act'' or the 
        ``BIOCHAR Act''

    The BIOCHAR Act would establish demonstration projects to support 
the development and commercialization of biochar and a competitive 
grant program to carry out research and development activities with 
respect to biochar.
    The bill directs the Secretary of Agriculture, the Secretary of the 
Interior, and the Secretary of Energy to fund biochar demonstration 
projects through partnerships with State, Tribal, or local governments; 
land-grant colleges or universities; or private, nonprofit, or 
cooperative entities; and to establish at least one biochar 
demonstration project in each Forest Service and Bureau of Land 
Management (BLM) region. The bill prioritizes projects that maximize 
carbon sequestration and creation of new jobs, demonstrate the benefits 
of biochar in creating new innovative uses and viable markets, restore 
forest health and resilience, and are in local markets with great need 
for biochar production.
    The Forest Service is currently working with many partners to 
support research, development, and commercialization of biochar. This 
bill would formalize these partnerships through demonstration projects, 
strengthening engagement and expanding the authorities for Forest 
Service Research and Development, State, Private, and Tribal Forestry, 
and the National Forest System. To the maximum extent practicable, the 
bill requires demonstration projects to derive at least 50 percent of 
feedstock from activities conducted on National Forest System land or 
public lands. As we prioritize demonstration project selection, we 
believe it would be important to identify projects that have the 
greatest potential to turn the demonstration into long term sustainable 
market growth. We request discretion in the percentage of feedstock 
that comes from Federal lands. While we support a demonstration project 
that uses biomass removed to support wildfire risk reduction, this 
level may limit our ability for high impact projects where there may 
not be adequate processing or production capacity, or where 
transportation costs to haul biomass or hazardous fuels to areas with 
adequate processing or production capacity may be cost-prohibitive.
    Existing State, Private, and Tribal Forestry programs such as Wood 
Innovations or Community Wood grants may be used to fund the 
development of new biochar facilities, but they cannot be used for 
research. Competitive joint venture agreements with the Forest Products 
Laboratory and research stations and Forest Service partners can be 
used for research associated with the development of new markets.
    USDA supports this bill as an effort to contribute to the 
commercialization of a forest product with a great potential role in 
forest conservation and ecosystem restoration while contributing to 
local economies and markets and decreasing the risk of wildland fires 
to rural communities. USDA would like to work with the Subcommittee and 
sponsors of this bill to ensure Forest Service coordination among 
programs that are engaged in biomass research, technology development, 
and market expansion and address technical concerns. USDA notes that 
since this bill does not provide an appropriation of funding for these 
additional activities, the agency would have to make trade-offs with 
existing programs using current appropriations. USDA would like to work 
with the bill sponsor and Subcommittee to address the concerns noted 
here.
H.R. 4353, Civilian Conservation Center Enhancement Act of 2023

    H.R. 4353 would amend Public Law 91-378 to authorize activities 
relating to ``Civilian Conservation Centers,'' as that term would be 
defined in the bill. ``Civilian Conservation Centers'' would be defined 
to include residential workforce development or training facilities for 
underserved youth that are operated by USDA. This bill would direct 
USDA and DOI in coordination with the U.S. Department of Labor (DOL) to 
offer specialized training programs focused on forestry and rangeland 
management, wildland firefighting, and other topics relating to Agency 
missions or the public interest. The bill would authorize USDA, in 
coordination with DOL, to conduct experimental, research, or 
demonstration pilot programs at Civilian Conservation Centers to 
provide career and technical education curricula and course offerings 
to advance the missions of DOI and USDA. In addition, the bill would 
provide direct hire authority for Civilian Conservation Center 
graduates and authority to hire and pay Civilian Conservation Center 
students for their work. Finally, the bill would require USDA and DOI 
to establish a pilot program to employ covered students to improve and 
expand the housing stock owned by the Federal Government for the 
purpose of housing wildland firefighters and other Federal employees.
    While the provisions in this bill would support the 
Administration's overall priorities in wildland fire management and 
workforce development, further policy and technical reviews are needed. 
As written, the bill would significantly expand Forest Service's 
capacity to train work crews and interns through partnerships, as well 
as existing authority under the Workforce Innovation and Opportunity 
Act (29 U.S.C. 3191-3212) to train students at Job Corps Civilian 
Conservation Centers through workforce development and hiring. The bill 
would permit the new Civilian Conservation Centers to become bases of 
operations for training underserved youth in firefighting, home 
construction, and conservation trades. Authority to hire and pay 
existing Job Corps Civilian Conservation Center students are priorities 
of USDA, and the bill would significantly enhance USDA's youth 
workforce development efforts. In addition, the pilot programs for 
addressing training and housing for firefighters outlined in the bill 
would address key needs in achieving the Forest Service's 10-year 
strategy to confront the wildfire crisis.
    The applicability of the bill to Job Corps Civilian Conservation 
Centers authorized under the Workforce Innovation and Opportunity Act 
is complex and would require coordination with DOL. This bill would 
apply to ``Civilian Conservation Centers,'' but that term is used in 
the Workforce Innovation and Opportunity Act at 29 U.S.C. 3197(d)(1) to 
apply to Civilian Conservation Centers operated by the Forest Service 
and funded by DOL under the Job Corps Program pursuant to an agreement 
between DOL and USDA. No Job Corps Civilian Conservation Centers are 
operated by any Federal agency other than the Forest Service. The 
proposed definition in Section 301 of this bill encompasses existing 
Job Corps Civilian Conservation Centers and potentially other USDA or 
DOI programs. The expansion to other programs would increase 
opportunities for marginalized youth beyond Job Corps Civilian 
Conservation Centers but would require inter-departmental cooperation 
regarding jurisdiction and student eligibility.
    Section 301 defines ``covered student'' and ``covered graduate'' in 
ways that would encompass existing students enrolled by DOL at Job 
Corps Civilian Conservation Centers. However, the term ``underserved 
youth'' is not defined in the bill and could also encompass youth not 
meeting eligibility criteria for the Job Corps Program. In addition, 
Section 301 defines ``Secretaries'' for the purposes of this bill to 
include the Secretaries of the Interior and Agriculture, but not the 
Secretary of Labor. We would like to work with the Subcommittee and 
bill sponsors to clarify the scope of this section and its relationship 
to the Workforce Innovation and Opportunity Act.
    Section 302(b) of the bill would apply specifically to existing Job 
Corps Civilian Conservation Centers operated under the Workforce 
Innovation and Opportunity Act. This bill would direct the Secretaries 
of the Interior and Agriculture to prioritize conservation and 
firefighting training at existing Job Corps Civilian Conservation 
Centers. However, DOI does not operate any Job Corps Civilian 
Conservation Centers. The Forest Service already prioritizes 
conservation and firefighting training at Job Corps Civilian 
Conservation Centers, to the extent feasible under DOL Job Corps policy 
and funding. We would like to work with the Subcommittee and bill 
sponsors to clarify the scope of this section and its relationship to 
the Workforce Innovation and Opportunity Act.
    Section 304 would authorize recruitment goals and investments for 
covered graduates. These programs could significantly increase the 
Forest Service's ability to train and recruit disadvantaged youth for 
wildland firefighting work. Section 304(b) would allow covered 
graduates to be appointed as Federal employees under special hiring 
rules. Section 304(d) would provide authority to ``employ or otherwise 
contract with'' covered students (who have not yet graduated) and 
compensate them for necessary hours of work at ``regular rates of 
pay.'' This authority would address a significant current barrier to 
engaging existing Job Corps Civilian Conservation Center students in 
conservation work. We welcome the opportunity to work with Congress to 
clarify the Federal employment status of the covered students who would 
become employed under this new authority. Section 304(e) would direct 
the Secretary of Agriculture to encourage the use of covered students 
to fulfill obligations under contracts, grants, and agreements in 
nearby national forests. We need to discuss with the bill sponsors the 
implications of employing versus contracting with covered students from 
safety and liability standpoints. Section 305 would authorize a pilot 
program to employ covered students in improving and expanding Federal 
Government housing for wildland firefighters, which would address 
another significant Forest Service challenge in expanding wildland fire 
response and hazardous fuels reduction. USDA recommends expanding 
section 305(b)(1) to cover improvement and expansion of housing for 
volunteers, partners' crews, and interns while working on Forest 
Service projects.
    USDA strongly supports the intent of the Civilian Conservation 
Center Enhancement Act of 2022 and looks forward to working with the 
Subcommittee and bill sponsors on technical changes to the bill to 
further support important workforce capacity needs.
H.R. 4717, ``Locally Led Restoration Act of 2023''

    H.R. 4717 amends the Healthy Forest Restoration Act to allow 
private persons or other public or private entities to propose 
stewardship contracting projects under the Stewardship End Result 
Contracting program so long as removing vegetation is one of the 
project's land management goals and at least 10percent of the of the 
vegetation proposed to be removed is salvage. The agency would have 
discretion to move forward with or deny a proposal, but a response 
would be required within 120 days of receiving a proposal.
    This bill also requires a report to Congress after five years on 
the number of project proposals under this section, the number of 
contracts and agreements entered under this section, and the number of 
acres on which forest thinning and non-commercial hazardous fuels 
reduction were carried out pursuant to such contracts and agreements.
    The Forest Service supports broader use of the stewardship 
contracting authority, and we welcome the chance to work with Congress 
to expand our tool set for forest health treatments. While we support 
broader, science-based usage of our existing suite of forest health 
authorities, we do have concerns with many of the specifics of this 
legislation.
    The Stewardship End Result Contracting program was designed to 
foster broad local stakeholder input and collaboration. We are 
concerned about how the bill, as currently written, may result in 
challenges in meeting requirements of that authority.
    Though this bill does not appear to directly conflict with current 
contracting law, we also have concerns about ensuring the full and open 
competition for National Forest System timber that is required by the 
National Forest Management Act and the requirements for service 
contract competition in the case of Integrated Resource Service 
Contracts.
    As written, the bill has potential to add significant amounts of 
Forest Service Stewardship End Result Contracting work. At minimum, it 
requires the agency to annually prepare and publicly notice an 
opportunity to submit proposals for stewardship contracting projects, 
and to respond to each such proposal within 120 days. In the case of 
denials, the bill language suggests that the agency provide detailed 
responses, including specific factors that led to the denial as well as 
potential courses of action for overcoming those factors. Providing 
that level of specific feedback would require technical review by 
program experts. Requiring agencies to not only publicly request such 
proposals but also review and respond to proposals within 120 days 
could foreseeably overwhelm agency acquisition and program resources. 
This potential adverse impact appears to directly contradict the long-
standing purposes of the Healthy Forests Restoration Act of 2003 and 
its amendments.
    As the Agency continues to increase the scale of project work to 
better address the wildfire crisis, we have concerns that this bill may 
result in numerous small-scale requests that could detract from a 
landscape approach. USDA also notes that our standard business practice 
is for local units to collaborate directly with local industry and 
other partners for current and future management plans. Thus, calling 
for project proposals may have limited additive benefit.
    H.R. 4717 also adjusts the threshold above which the Secretary of 
Agriculture shall advertise timber sales. The threshold currently is 
$10,000, but under this bill would be adjusted to $55,000 in the first 
year and then adjusted annually based on the Consumer Price Index. For 
low value material without good markets, raising the threshold enables 
the agency to do more direct sales and have more tools to complete 
forest health and fire risk reduction treatments.
    In summary, we thank the bill sponsor and the Subcommittee for 
continued support and interest of the stewardship contracting authority 
and for proposing to increase the minimum threshold for advertising 
timber sales. We look forward to working with the Subcommittee to 
address our concerns, to best meet our shared goals to expand use of 
the stewardship contracting authority and increase the pace and scale 
of forest health treatments.
Conclusion

    That concludes my testimony. Thank you for the opportunity to 
testify. I am happy to answer any questions the Subcommittee may have 
for me.

                                 ______
                                 

    Mr. Tiffany. Thank you, Ms. Hall-Rivera, for your 
testimony, and now we will turn to Members' questions.
    First of all, Representative Westerman, if you want to 
start questioning, you have 5 minutes.
    Mr. Westerman. Thank you, Chairman Tiffany. And again, 
thank you to the witnesses.
    Deputy Chief Hall-Rivera, USDA has undertaken the Longleaf 
Restoration Initiative back, I believe, in 2010. It has been 
very successful, 3 million acres up to 5 million acres. Can you 
maybe explain how the white oak initiative might be patterned 
after that, and what kind of successes you think we could see 
with white oaks?
    And also the fact that with longleaf, it required a lot of 
planting, but with white oak the seed stock is there, we just 
need to be able to regenerate the young saplings.
    Ms. Hall-Rivera. Yes, thank you for that question, Mr. 
Westerman. And I think you probably know we are getting ready 
to celebrate with all of our partners the longleaf restoration 
partnership here coming up tomorrow, actually, at USDA.
    And you are right, there are a lot of parallels, I think, 
not the least of which is that it takes a number of partners 
working together across landscapes to have a success in 
restoring a species to its range and expanding it like we want 
to do with white oak and have been able to do with longleaf 
and, in fact, I think are going to be celebrating the planting 
of the billionth longleaf seedling here tomorrow, so that is a 
really great model for us to pattern our continued work with 
partners in terms of white oak restoration.
    I think another parallel that is pretty important is a lot 
of the critical work we have to do is on private lands, and 
that means we need to bring private landowners to the table, 
get them engaged, and help them see the value of having these 
species on their land, and that takes work not only from the 
Forest Service and partners, but our sister agency, the Natural 
Resource Conservation Service, as well. And I know they are 
front and center in the bill.
    So, thank you for that question.
    Mr. Westerman. I believe a lot of that longleaf restoration 
was done on private land, as well, so it is nice to have a good 
model like that.
    We have consistently heard in this Committee that one of 
the primary problems with good forest management is dealing 
with the low-value material, the pace and scale of getting into 
the forests and doing the management work. Can you describe how 
a product like biochar could help with the pace and scale, and 
how it could be used widely across the country?
    Ms. Hall-Rivera. Yes, you are absolutely right, sir, that 
one of our biggest challenges is what do we do with the low-
value material that comes off of our forest now, especially our 
heavily-stocked forests that many of you mentioned in your 
opening statements.
    Biochar is one of those innovative forest products that 
helps us find markets for material that normally we would pile 
and/or pile and burn. So, it has a lot of really novel uses. 
You mentioned a number of them in your statement, as well as 
for us we are also looking at partnerships in abandoned mine 
lands remediation. It even has some uses in, say, packaging. 
So, it really has a lot of potential to offer, like I said, 
innovative markets that would give us a place for the material 
to go, it would create jobs, and it would create revenue for 
entrepreneurial businesses.
    Mr. Westerman. And Director Rupert, I saw you shaking your 
head a little bit as she was talking.
    I actually have some biochar samples up here, and it is 
amazing. You mentioned mine reclamation. There are certain 
grades of this that can be used in very high-value products. 
Some of it you can make carbon black out of it to substitute 
into petroleum-based plastics.
    But on the mine reclamation, Director Rupert, have you seen 
any research, or do you think there is opportunity in mine 
reclamation to use biochar there?
    Mr. Rupert. Yes, thank you, Mr. Westerman, for the 
question. Yes, and I was shaking my head as Jaelith was really 
describing tools in the toolbox, and the opportunity that 
biochar represents, again, sort of that innovation.
    I think soil supplement, looking at abandoned mine lands, 
and the kind of issues and challenges that are present there, 
innovation like biochar and soil supplement, I think, has great 
potential. I am probably not the best person to talk to in 
terms of really laying out that sort of scientific foundation, 
but certainly from that broad ecological perspective, there is 
real opportunity there.
    Mr. Westerman. And we have a tremendous research mechanism 
in our country through our land grant universities for 
agriculture. So, one of the things in the BIOCHAR Act is to get 
our land grant universities with the cooperative extension 
services involved so that they can work with farmers and figure 
out the right application rates so that, once the products are 
made, the farmers can know how much to apply to their soil in 
their particular region.
    My time is up, I yield back.
    Mr. Tiffany. Thank you, Chairman Westerman.
    Representative Neguse, you have 5 minutes for questioning.
    Mr. Neguse. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you to all the 
witnesses.
    Ms. Hall-Rivera, it is great to see you again today, and 
thank you for joining us in the Federal Lands Subcommittee.
    As you may know, I have long been a champion of expanding 
and reinvigorating the Civilian Conservation Corps through a 
21st-century CCC. When I was chair of the Subcommittee last 
Congress, we hosted a hearing on the topic. I introduced a 
variety of different bills calling for those investments, and I 
was very heartened to see the Biden administration's recent 
announcement launching the American Climate Corps using 
investments that we had secured in the last Congress as part of 
the Inflation Reduction Act which were modeled in part on the 
legislation that I introduced and referenced earlier.
    I wonder if you might just be able to expound a bit on how 
the Forest Service is currently expanding the use of the Corps 
programs, including the Indian Youth Service Corps and the 
newly-established Forest Corps and American Climate Corps, to 
address wildfire risk and ecosystem needs, especially in areas 
of high risk.
    Ms. Hall-Rivera. Yes, absolutely. Thank you for that 
question, Mr. Neguse.
    And let me first say about the legislation before you, to 
date, for us to have direct hire authority from our Job Corps 
centers would be a really great addition and change for us. We 
can bring these young people directly into the agency after 
they have trained not only in trades, but in work like 
restoration and wildfire.
    In terms of your question, sir, we have begun to invest 
from the Inflation Reduction Act in the recently reinvigorated 
Civilian Climate Corps that the President recently released an 
EO on. And we are looking forward to being able to expand our 
partnership with such organizations as Student Conservation 
Association and Public Land Corps.
    We absolutely need to be able to bring more young people 
into the work that we do in the woods in restoration and in 
firefighting, and it can be a challenge to attract people into 
that workforce now. So, something like the Civilian Climate 
Corps and the Civilian Conservation Corps that really touches 
people where they are concerned--many young people are 
concerned with issues around the environment and climate 
change, and that helps us make those connections and meet them 
where they are, and then bring them into the workforce. So, it 
is a really important tool, and we look forward to continuing 
to expand those partnerships.
    Mr. Neguse. Well, we thank you again for your testimony, 
and I think it underscores the importance of making sure that 
we get this bill across the finish line, given the ways in 
which it can ultimately help you and your agency address these 
workforce challenges that serve this shared purpose that I 
think we all agree on.
    One, I guess, last issue that I wanted to note for the 
Committee. In addition to championing the Civilian Conservation 
Corps, the Civilian Climate Corps, I have also introduced a 
bill to reauthorize the Collaborative Forest Landscape 
Restoration Program, which is a critical initiative that 
promotes shared stewardship and advances critical cross-
boundary restoration objectives. This is a program that has 
been supported on a bipartisan basis. It has been deployed 
effectively in Colorado, of course, as you know, in a variety 
of other states, perhaps Wisconsin, perhaps Arkansas. So, I 
would just underscore my hope that we could consider this bill 
in due course within this Subcommittee, perhaps at a future 
hearing.
    With that, I will yield back the balance of my time and 
again thank the witnesses for testifying.
    Mr. Tiffany. The Ranking Member yields. Now I would like to 
recognize Mr. Lamborn for 5 minutes.
    Mr. Lamborn. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    Ms. Hall-Rivera, I have a couple questions for you. Can you 
explain the difference between timber contracting and 
stewardship contracting?
    Ms. Hall-Rivera. Yes, thank you for that question, sir.
    Timber contracting is essentially just a basic transaction 
between a vendor and the Forest Service. It is generally 
looking at commercially viable timber. And, of course, the 
folks that bid on those timber contracts are looking to make a 
profit. That is part of their business, harvesting timber.
    Stewardship contracting is a tool in the toolbox. It has a 
few different purposes, and it is based on this model of what 
we call goods for services. So, folks who bid on the contracts 
get goods, timber, right, that is worth something for them and 
for the products that they can create. But they also, as part 
of that same contract, provide services. And generally, those 
are around restoration-type services, hazardous fuels 
treatment. They may be related to, say, water quality or 
wildlife projects, as well. So, it is a broader tool, and it 
helps us.
    Both of them are important. Stewardship contracting, we 
have really increased the use of that over the last few years 
and has really enabled us to develop deeper collaborations and 
partnerships, as well.
    Mr. Lamborn. OK, very good. Why do timber companies opt to 
leave hand piles in the forest? And do these piles create fire 
risk?
    Ms. Hall-Rivera. Well, under a timber contract, a company 
is going to do what we write in the contract, sir. At times we 
ask them to remove those piles as part of the contract, and 
they do that. And, of course, they bid that into their price.
    At times, depending on the land and resource management 
plan or the goals that the silviculturist may have for that 
sale, we may ask the contractors to leave the piles, and they 
generally pay into a brush disposal fund that then we use to 
dispose of the piles maybe when it is more seasonally 
appropriate, let's say. We do that mainly to reduce fire risk. 
But burning piles, as you are probably aware, can pose its own 
risk, not to mention the fact that, like we just talked about 
with Mr. Westerman, we can probably make better use of that 
material if we can convert it into more of a productive forest 
product.
    Mr. Lamborn. OK. And in a typical forest, how is the 
salvage material spread throughout the healthy portions of the 
forest? And what relationship does that have with the technique 
of clear-cutting?
    Ms. Hall-Rivera. If we have a disturbance event, it kind of 
depends on what that is. Say if it is a windthrow or a 
hurricane, you will see salvaged material kind of laying down 
in piles as a result of the wind. A fire, of course, you will 
see it more dispersed throughout the forest, depending on the 
severity of the fire.
    So, in a natural disturbance, you will see what we would 
refer to as salvaged material arranged differently depending on 
the slope, the aspect, and the type of disturbance. In terms of 
a timber sale, which maybe is what you are asking about, sir, 
again you may see salvage left on the ground in a pile, limbs, 
tops, things like that, depending again on how the contract was 
written.
    I am not completely sure I understand your question 
regarding the relationship to clear-cutting, though.
    Mr. Lamborn. What I am trying to get at is, how can you 
thin a forest without clear-cutting?
    Ms. Hall-Rivera. OK. Yes, thank you for clarifying that for 
me.
    I think you would find that a majority of the treatments 
that take place in the forest around thinning, especially if it 
has to do with hazardous fuels reduction, really are not clear 
cuts at all. And what we are doing especially in western 
forests, is taking overly-stocked, dense forests and reducing 
them back to where you would see a more natural range of 
variability.
    So, the operator is generally going to be taking out 
smaller diameter trees, again, those trees that we need to find 
markets for, and they are leaving a lot of other large trees 
behind that can then flourish because they are not competing 
with those small trees. So, it is generally not what you would 
see in a clear cut, where you would remove all the standing 
biomass.
    Mr. Lamborn. Are there factors holding back contractors 
from being involved in more contracts?
    Ms. Hall-Rivera. Well, I would say that a big challenge 
that we have both in the Forest Service and in our contracting 
community is capacity, just getting people interested in this 
work, getting them out to do this work in the woods. We have a 
lot of people leaving that workforce and retiring from that 
workforce, as you are probably pretty aware in your state.
    I would say some of the other challenges, again, is a lot 
of the material that is coming off our forest to reduce fire 
risk is not particularly marketable and doesn't really have a 
use for industry now. That is why we need those critical 
partnerships, together with industry and researchers, to help 
us develop these innovative markets for this small-diameter 
material.
    Mr. Lamborn. OK, thank you, and I am hopeful my legislation 
is one piece of the puzzle to help accomplish that.
    Mr. Chairman, I yield back.
    Mr. Tiffany. The gentleman yields. I would now like to 
recognize Mr. Fulcher from Idaho for 5 minutes.
    Mr. Fulcher. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And to the panel, 
thank you for being here.
    Just listening to the comments from Mr. Rupert and Ms. 
Hall-Rivera, I think we probably are going to have some very 
significant differences of opinion when it comes to climate and 
impact on that, on environmental management, because my 
experience living in a state where we have about two-thirds of 
the land mass that is federally controlled, it all comes down 
to management, and the climate doesn't make any distinction 
whatsoever when it comes to federally controlled land or 
privately-controlled land. But the results of how that is 
managed absolutely, positively does.
    So, I will just leave that as a statement, but I do have a 
question or two for you all.
    In a place where we have Interior and Agriculture that are 
back to back--and we have a lot of that in our state--there are 
often difficulties with communication, and how that gets 
managed, and how the various departments communicate with one 
another. I would like to get input from both of you, but Mr. 
Rupert, I will start with you.
    How do you cooperate with your colleague next to you on 
your left, more importantly, on the ground, when there are 
issues between Interior and Agriculture? How do you 
communicate, how do you cooperate, how do you make this 
successful?
    Mr. Rupert. Thank you for the question.
    Well, certainly at a national program level, quite frankly, 
and in particular on wildland fire issues, I think of Interior 
and USDA Forest Services, quite frankly, being joined at the 
hip. We use the same standards and spend a tremendous amount of 
time coordinating on issues.
    As you get to the ground where management decisions are 
being made and actual management is occurring, especially in 
the wildland fire space, I would point to coordination that has 
occurred under, like, the national cohesive strategy, the 
Cohesive Wildland Fire Management Strategy that really 
identifies that. To address the fire risk that we are currently 
experiencing, we have to have a cross-programmatic, multi-
jurisdictional approach, because fire does not respect land 
jurisdictions.
    You look at the work in September, the Wildfire Mitigation 
and Management Commission, which was established under the 
Bipartisan Infrastructure Law, released its report and 
recommendations. That was a congressionally-established 
commission, 50-member commission that developed an excess of 
300-page report----
    Mr. Fulcher. Mr. Rupert, I only have limited time. I would 
like to give Ms. Hall-Rivera an opportunity to address that, 
too. Sorry to interrupt.
    Ms. Hall-Rivera?
    Ms. Hall-Rivera. Thank you for the question, sir. And I 
would echo what Mr. Rupert said about being joined at the hip 
when it comes to wildland fire coordination between Forest 
Service and DOI.
    I think the point you are making, though, is that when you 
get out on the ground sometimes we maybe aren't communicating 
as much as we should be. And what we really don't want is 
Americans experiencing us differently, right? Have them go to a 
Forest Service office and have one experience, go to a DOI 
office and have another experience. We don't want that. We want 
people to sort of have one shared experience when they are 
dealing with their natural resource managers in the Federal 
Government. So, I think we do have some work to do there.
    We have a lot of places in the country where we plan 
together across our landscapes: land management planning, 
forest planning. We share map products, we share technology. 
But I think we can always do better about that. Sometimes we 
make decisions that are right for that particular landscape, 
but we don't necessarily look across the hill and make that 
connection with our Interior colleagues. So, it is something 
that we are always striving to do better with.
    Mr. Fulcher. Thank you for that. And I have one more 
question. I would like to get to Mr. Oshiba before my time is 
out.
    Mr. Oshiba, when I think about the Air Force and training 
ranges and environmental concerns, that is not a natural 
synchronized set of topics. Can you briefly touch on what is 
important to you for a training range when it comes to 
environmental service?
    Mr. Oshiba. Thank you for the question.
    From an environmental perspective on the range, it is 
extremely important for us to continue to be good stewards of 
the environment. Being good stewards allows us access to do our 
training that is necessary. So, preservation of the environment 
is as important to us as the training that occurs above it.
    Mr. Fulcher. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, I yield back.
    Mr. Tiffany. The gentleman yields, and I would like to turn 
to Representative Hoyle for your questioning for 5 minutes.
    Ms. Hoyle. Thank you, Mr. Chair. I am really glad to be 
here as we discuss bills on forest management, wildfire, and 
related workforce issues. These topics couldn't be more 
important to my district, 83 percent of which is forest land 
with a patchwork set of ownership and forest management 
strategies that is unique to Oregon, as my colleague, Mr. 
Bentz, could tell you.
    And I am proud to co-lead two of the bills that we are 
discussing today.
    First, I would like to thank Chair Westerman for the 
opportunity to work with him on his BIOCHAR Act. We need to 
invest in new markets to help get low-value biomass out of the 
woods and reduce wildfire risk. Biochar could be an important 
tool to do that, and I look forward to working with Chair 
Westerman and my colleagues to get towards that goal, to get it 
done, and signed into law.
    I am also a co-lead of the Civilian Conservation Center 
Enhancement Act, a bill sponsored by Representative Salinas, 
also of Oregon. We have a lot going on in Oregon. I hear all 
the time from people back home who tell me they desperately 
need more trained people in the woods. We should absolutely use 
the existing Job Corps Civilian Conservation Centers to support 
workforce development and forest management and wildland 
firefighting like this bill would do. And if we could have 
continuity so we employ people throughout the year, that would 
be even better.
    I am especially glad this bill makes it easier for the 
Forest Service to hire CCC graduates by reducing bureaucracy. 
We shouldn't lose qualified job candidates to months and months 
of red tape, which is what is happening now. I strongly support 
the CCC Enhancement Act and the BIOCHAR Act, and I urge my 
colleagues to support them, as well.
    Thank you for your time. I yield my time.
    Mr. Tiffany. The gentlelady yields. Next, I would like to 
recognize Representative Stauber for questioning.
    Mr. Stauber. Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
    Deputy Chief Hall-Rivera, in your view, what is the state 
of our Federal lands for disabled veterans?
    Ms. Hall-Rivera. Thank you for that question, sir. And I 
don't know that I am qualified to speak on that specifically, 
but what I can tell you is that we want our public lands to be 
accessible to all Americans. They are a birthright for every 
American and, of course, our veterans help us protect that 
birthright with their service.
    There are still many places on National Forest System lands 
where we can improve our accessibility, be it widening trails, 
making them paved so that they are wheelchair accessible, 
ensuring that our bathrooms are ADA-compliant are just a few 
examples of the work I know that we do need to do out there so 
that our disabled veterans can enjoy the experience on public 
lands that is inclusive.
    Mr. Stauber. So, by and large, are the recreational areas 
within Forest Service jurisdiction fully capable of supporting 
disabled veterans and Americans?
    Ms. Hall-Rivera. I don't believe they are fully capable of 
that, sir. And we can certainly get back to you and your office 
with some more details on that. But there is more work to do, 
no doubt.
    Mr. Stauber. Yes, and I really appreciate your comment that 
they have to be accessible to all Americans, those with 
disabilities, as well. Our public lands are meant to serve all 
the American people, including those with disabilities, as you 
just said.
    Mr. Chairman, as you know, the district I represent in 
northeastern Minnesota includes great tracts of Federal lands 
such as the Superior and Chippewa National Forests. In 
northeast Minnesota and across rural America we see the 
incredible value that these public spaces provide for our 
communities.
    Through a public-private partnership in northeast 
Minnesota, Veterans on the Lake in Ely, Minnesota provides the 
opportunity for our veterans and their families, including 
those who are disabled, to enjoy and recreate in the Superior 
National Forest in northeast Minnesota. Thanks to the work of 
this organization, hundreds of veterans and their families are 
able to boat, fish, swim, ski, and snowmobile. Veterans on the 
Lake ensures that all individuals, no matter their physical 
abilities, are able to participate in these activities.
    I want to thank my colleague from New Mexico, 
Representative Stansbury, for introducing--perfect timing, by 
the way, Representative--for introducing and promoting the 
Accessibility on Federal Lands Act of 2023. It is important 
that we look to expand these opportunities throughout the 
country and ensure our public lands are serving all Americans.
    I support this legislation and, Mr. Chair, I yield back.
    Mr. Tiffany. The gentleman yields. I would like to 
recognize the gentleman from Oregon, Mr. Bentz, for 5 minutes.
    Mr. Bentz. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
    I am curious which one, or maybe all three of you, may have 
been involved in the report on the Wildland Fire Mitigation and 
Management Commission. Are you all familiar with that?
    Ms. Hall-Rivera. Yes, sir. I was on the Commission as a 
representative for USDA.
    Mr. Bentz. That is excellent. I met with one of the 
Oregonians, John O'Keefe, and briefly talked with him about it, 
it is kind of a thick report, so I have not read through it, 
but I am curious if his take on it is the same as yours, and 
that was that beneficial fire was going to be the answer 
primarily to our current circumstance.
    Of course, through the western United States, about 90 
million acres of forest of one kind or another, 90 million 
acres. So, am I correct, was his take that it was going to be 
beneficial fire that is going to be the answer?
    Ms. Hall-Rivera. Well, sir, I would certainly say that 
beneficial fire is a critical tool in the toolbox, as is 
grazing, that I am sure Mr. O'Keefe talked to you about, as 
well, given his role on the Commission.
    Certainly, we know that our forests are fire-adapted. They 
need fire, but they need it in the right place and at the right 
time. And one of those really critical tools is prescribed 
fire. And the Commission report does have numerous 
recommendations related to prescribed fire, as well as cultural 
burning and Indigenous traditional ecological knowledge around 
fire.
    Mr. Bentz. It always seems that the breakdown in these 
kinds of conversations is a proper sense of scale. That is why 
I mentioned the 90 million acres. And also to suggest that 
beneficial fire or fire in general is going to be targeted 
seems to be wishful thinking in much of our forests. Too late 
for that without some sort of mechanical thinning, which brings 
us nicely to H.R. 4717.
    But the problem in these get-back-in-the-woods bills always 
is how you are going to pay for it. And that takes me to a 
question to you. And you mentioned it earlier. We are going to 
be taking out the small stuff because we want to leave the 
large. That is kind of contraindicated when it comes to 
actually paying for anything. Did your Commission discuss this 
unfortunate approach to how we are going to pay for that 90 
million acres of work we need to do?
    Ms. Hall-Rivera. Yes, we did spend time in the Commission, 
of course, talking about the enormous expense that we are 
facing in terms of the wildfire crisis in this country. And 
there are some recommendations that do look at that, again, 
around innovative forest markets. In particular, there are, I 
believe, a handful of recommendations in the Commission report 
related to that.
    And I just want to go back and put a finer point on what 
you said about mechanical treatment. In much of our western 
forests, we absolutely need mechanical treatment before we can 
apply beneficial fire through prescribed fire, in particular. 
So, we need to conduct both of those treatments in many places, 
and I think that comes out in the Commission report, as well.
    Mr. Bentz. Yes, and thank you so much for bringing that 
point up and sharing the recognition of that unfortunate fact, 
because that brings us right back to not having enough people 
to go do all the work and, again, that impending sense of doom 
each year as these forests grow, what, 15 percent compounded. 
So, pretty challenging.
    Can you tell us today that you actually think that we can 
do any of this on a scale that will actually help?
    And I recall several years ago in this same room that we 
were debating, I think, your forest plan, which hoped to do 20 
million acres over 10 years. Perhaps right at this point you 
could tell us where we are on that admirable goal.
    Ms. Hall-Rivera. Yes, I really appreciate your series of 
questions there, Congressman.
    It is an enormous scale. The scale of the challenge that we 
are facing in this country when it comes to wildfire is 
enormous, and it is pretty daunting. I can tell you, as a 
person who has worked in it for 15-plus years, I do think we 
can get there, but it is going to take an all-of-the-above 
approach. It is not just about Federal agencies. It is about 
those robust partnerships with communities, community 
organizations, tribes. And now, as we saw in the Commission, a 
lot of additional folks coming to the table who care about this 
problem: the insurance industry, for example, homeowners 
associations, just the wide scope and scale of people who have 
to invest in this challenge to help us get out on the other 
side of it.
    So, it is absolutely going to take a lot of resources in 
the Forest Service. Our Wildfire Crisis Strategy did name the 
need to treat 20 million acres on our lands over a decade. We 
were resourced for a portion of that, which we greatly 
appreciate, through IRA and BIL. And in 2023, we treated about 
4.3 million acres of hazardous fuels, which is an all-time high 
for us. But we need to continue to have a focus on that, 
together with our partners.
    Mr. Bentz. Thank you for your candor. I yield back.
    Mr. Tiffany. The gentleman yields. I would like to 
recognize the gentlelady from Alaska for 5 minutes of 
questioning.
    Mrs. Peltola. Thank you, Chairman Tiffany. Good afternoon. 
I represent Alaska, and my questions are really kind of focused 
on some of the cost differential for firefighting in Alaska and 
things like that. And I think I want to ask Ms. Hall-Rivera.
    If you could answer, I think to date we have 369 fires are 
being tracked right now as of 1 p.m. yesterday, like, currently 
going at this time. And over the last year, 3 million acres of 
our land, both trees and tundra, have experienced wildfires. 
And that is actually the size of the state of Connecticut. And 
I just wondered if you could talk a little bit about some of 
the challenges in training and some of the challenges in 
getting commodities there to do the firefighting work. Thank 
you.
    Ms. Hall-Rivera. Sure. Thank you for that question, 
Congresswoman.
    The first thing that I want to say about fighting fire in 
Alaska is that it is truly an interagency effort. We work very 
closely with the Department of the Interior and the state of 
Alaska, who really have the lead for firefighting in the state. 
But it is an all-hands-on-deck situation when there are fires 
in Alaska.
    One of the things that you are well aware of is that the 
fire season in Alaska does differ a little bit from that in the 
Lower 48, and so we are often able to provide resources from 
the Lower 48 both the Department of the Interior, the Forest 
Service, as well as states, to be able to bring that capacity 
to your state that is needed.
    I think your point about unique challenges that exist in 
Alaska in terms of recruiting and retaining firefighters and 
expenses related to fighting fire, they are important to 
consider. Of course, we have challenges recruiting and 
retaining firefighters across this nation right now as we look 
for a solution to ensure that they have a permanent pay 
increase. But I think there are unique challenges in Alaska, 
just looking at the population and how many people we have to 
draw from, and then bring them into this career field. Again, 
that is why we really emphasize that interjurisdictional nature 
and bringing folks from the Lower 48 to support your fire 
efforts.
    Mrs. Peltola. Mr. Rupert, do you want to follow up?
    Mr. Rupert. Well, maybe just a point or two about Alaska.
    I think, in terms of the actual sort of cost and expense of 
fires in Alaska, I don't necessarily have numbers at my 
fingertips now to share. But there are differences, 
particularly, much of Alaska is undeveloped, remote. Wildfire 
response in Alaska in remote areas is essentially not a 
suppression response, it is really a monitoring response. That 
is very different than in the Lower 48. The focus in Alaska in 
terms of active response is on communities that are on the 
highway system or Native communities. And much of that work is 
sort of pre-fire risk reduction work to protect those 
communities before a fire occurs.
    There is increasing work and assessment around wildfire in 
Alaska, like, to protect permafrost. I mean, we have increasing 
insight in terms of what the impact of fires might look like in 
the future. We have seen active impacts in very similar 
environments and systems in Canada this year with the boreal 
forest. So, there is some emerging work, particularly at places 
like Yukon Flats, looking at potential strategies to protect 
permafrost, at least for the mid-term, so that other broader 
climate mitigation activities can hopefully catch up because of 
the concerns that are related to when permafrost goes and 
methane is released, and just the broad effect of that.
    So, Alaska is different, I think, in terms of fire 
response, for sure. The interagency partnership that Jaelith 
hit on, the state of Alaska, Interior, USDA, Native 
communities, there is a strong Alaska Fire Service organization 
in place that really is quite progressive, and impactful, and 
effective.
    Mrs. Peltola. I had a follow-up question about the Forest 
Service estimating that by 2050 the cost could go up between 24 
to 169 percent. But in the interest of time, Chairman Tiffany, 
I will follow up with you later. Thank you.
    Mr. Tiffany. The gentlelady yields.
    Deputy Chief Hall-Rivera, as you heard in my opening 
statement, there is a direct correlation between wildfire and 
the reduction in harvest on our national forest lands. I have 
raised this with Chief Moore. And recently the Forest Service 
reported a 20 million board feet decline in timber harvested 
for Quarter 3 of this year. Do you have an update as far as are 
you going to hit the targets?
    Ms. Hall-Rivera. Thank you for the question, Congressman.
    We are very close to finalizing our end-of-year reporting 
from the end of the Fiscal Year, so I don't want to misspeak 
and give you an incorrect number here, but we would be very 
happy to get back with you and your staff about our final 
number for our timber harvest this year. I believe we are very 
close, if not right at the goal, but we can get back with you 
on that to confirm, for sure.
    Mr. Tiffany. Because the goal was 3.4 billion board feet, 
right?
    Ms. Hall-Rivera. Yes, correct.
    Mr. Tiffany. Do you think you are going to hit it?
    Ms. Hall-Rivera. I think we are very close, sir. But we 
will need to get back to you.
    Mr. Tiffany. How do you define close?
    Ms. Hall-Rivera. I think we were, I want to say maybe 3 to 
3.2, but we will confirm that for you.
    Mr. Tiffany. Is it possible to exceed?
    Ms. Hall-Rivera. Well, we certainly set ambitious goals for 
ourselves. In an ideal situation, yes, we would like to exceed 
those goals when it comes to timber harvest. We were able to 
exceed our hazardous fuels goal this year, for example.
    Mr. Tiffany. Was the Forest Service allocated additional 
dollars over the last couple of years with the various mega-
spending bills that went through Congress?
    Ms. Hall-Rivera. Yes, sir. Under the IRA and the BIL, we 
were given significant resources for hazardous fuels treatment, 
as well as other critical work that we are doing to include 
timber harvest work in our watersheds, culverts, et cetera. And 
we are putting those dollars to good work, and very 
appreciative of them.
    Mr. Tiffany. So, if you are getting additional dollars, why 
is there any question that you are not going to hit the 3.4 
billion board feet? What is the problem?
    Ms. Hall-Rivera. Well, in terms of our timber target, I 
would say there are a couple of different things at work.
    We have talked today about the challenge we have with small 
diameter wood coming--that is primarily what we are focused on 
in the wildfire crisis strategy, is reducing fire risk. And 
that is usually taking out smaller diameter trees that don't 
tend to be worth a lot. So, that makes it difficult for us to 
meet all of our goals.
    We know that we partner with the timber industry, and we 
know that they are having their own struggles when it comes to 
capacity and labor, as well. You mentioned the number of mills 
that have closed. That creates a challenge in terms of 
transportation costs that I am sure that you are pretty 
familiar with.
    We have been using some innovative projects like biomass 
timber transport projects to see if we can explore some 
different ways of overcoming some of those transportation 
challenges. So, a lot of those kinds of things are in our 
system.
    And then we also have our own capacity challenges, as well. 
And we are continuing to work on remedying that and bringing 
more people on board who have those skills that we need to 
harvest timber.
    Mr. Tiffany. Yes, you were talking about, I think you 
mentioned the enormous scale of managing lands like this. Is it 
time to turn over more management to the states, like with Good 
Neighbor Authority which has had some success? Is it time to do 
that?
    It sounds like you have huge challenges in terms of 
personnel and all the rest. I know in the state of Wisconsin we 
have had some successes there going back a decade. Is it time 
to turn over more management to the states? It seems they are 
more nimble, and they are able to get these things done.
    Ms. Hall-Rivera. We really value our partnership with our 
states and our state foresters, and Wisconsin is a really great 
example of Good Neighbor Authority. We use Good Neighbor 
Authority very frequently. We are continuing to increase the 
use of that, and it does help us to partner with our states. 
They do have easier contracting processes in many cases. They 
might have different innovations than we have.
    So, I don't know that I would say turning it over, but 
certainly increasing partnerships and being more creative in 
how we use the tools that we have. And all the tools that you 
all are looking to give us and bills such as before you today 
are things that we need to continue to look to and invest in 
and continue to increase our use of.
    Mr. Tiffany. So, you are supportive of expansion of the 
Good Neighbor Authority?
    Ms. Hall-Rivera. Yes, absolutely. And I would also name the 
Tribal Forest Protection Act, as well.
    Mr. Tiffany. And for you Members that were not here earlier 
in the hearing, I mentioned in my opening statement 1,900 mills 
have closed in the western United States since 2000. In a 
little over 20 years, 1,900 mills. You wonder why they have a 
problem. We ran them out. We ran them out of America here over 
the last 20-plus years. Spotted owl, all these other fake 
crises, that is what has created this problem here in the 
United States of America.
    Mr. Oshiba, I am going to use a little more time than I 
should. What is more important, environmental protection or 
military readiness?
    Mr. Oshiba. Mr. Chairman, I think those two can co-exist 
together, and they are equal priorities because one certainly 
supports the other.
    I mentioned earlier that our ability to preserve the 
environment where we train allows us to conduct training, so we 
believe that those two things can co-exist together.
    Mr. Tiffany. OK. Well, I would like to thank the panel for 
joining us today. Next, we are going to go to our third panel.
    While the Clerk resets our witness table, I will remind the 
witnesses that, under Committee Rules, they must limit their 
oral statements to 5 minutes, but their entire statement will 
appear in the hearing record.
    I would also like to remind our witnesses of the timing 
lights which will turn red at the end of your 5-minute 
statement, and to please remember to turn on your microphone.
    As with the second panel, I will allow all witnesses to 
testify before Member questioning.
    [Pause.]
    Mr. Tiffany. Thank you all for joining us. We are going to 
get started here. First, I would like to introduce Mr. Pat 
Sherren, Director of New Product Development and Sales at 
Meltzer Forest Products. Mr. Sherren, you have 5 minutes for 
your testimony. Welcome.

STATEMENT OF PAT SHERREN, DIRECTOR, NEW PRODUCT DEVELOPMENT AND 
    SALES, METZLER FOREST PRODUCTS, REEDSVILLE, PENNSYLVANIA

    Mr. Sherren. Good afternoon, legislators, staff, and fellow 
attendees. As has already been said, I am the Director of New 
Product Development at Metzler Forest Products. I have been 
asked by the U.S. Biochar Coalition to make a statement 
representing myself, Metzler, and the Pennsylvania Forest 
Products Association in support of Chairman Westerman's BIOCHAR 
Act.
    I graduated from West Virginia University in 1986 with a 
Bachelor of Science degree in forest resource management as an 
unlikely forester who secured a coveted forestry job at 
Westvaco's Luke, Maryland paper mill, where I navigated five 
mergers and buyouts to develop new fiber supply areas, new 
fiber supply sources to work on special projects critical to 
the mill's operation, and finally being the last chip buyer 
before the mill's closure in 2019.
    A large part of the new fiber supply areas and sources were 
developed through my relationship with Alan Metzler. Alan and 
Jill Metzler started our two-generation family-run business 
with one cable skidder and one pickup truck in 1987. We are now 
90 strong, operating all over the Mid-Atlantic region, 
providing timber harvesting and forestry services, land 
clearing and grubbing, custom chipping and grinding, amended 
soils, mulches, composts, and biochar products.
    A quick search on the Google machine may cause you to think 
biochar will save the world. It may not be the end-all be-all, 
but it will be part of the solution to improve our lives 
through enhanced soil health, improved livestock and poultry 
production, improved stormwater management and water 
filtration, with emerging uses in building products, asphalt, 
concrete, and steel production, and the oil and gas industry.
    The UN's Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change lists 
biochar as one of only a few shovel-ready and scalable ways to 
quickly and efficiently sequester carbon. The science and art 
of good forest management has been developing in the United 
States for over 100 years. No matter what your environmental 
and political view of timber harvesting or climate change, we 
can always do better.
    [Slide.]
    Mr. Sherren. Science proves that forest management 
efficiently captures and sequesters carbon and timely forest 
management harvest cycles, as shown in the graphic you can see 
from the National Clean Air and Streams Institute, by 
regenerating young forests that aggressively capture carbon, 
letting those forests mature and sequester carbon, harvesting 
them at their economic and carbon sequester peak, while 
controlling invasive species and starting again with new young 
forests.
    Good and timely forest management also reduces forest fire 
fuel. Both of these benefits to society also drive economic 
development through the production of forest products that 
touch our lives every day, and particularly in rural areas.
    Many thousands, tens of thousands, and maybe the Forest 
Service and BLM representatives would say millions and tens of 
millions, of acres of poor forest sites need to be managed to 
improve forest health and productivity, but there are not 
enough markets to support that forest management. That means 
there is a lot of fiber in the U.S. forests that could be 
converted to many valuable products like biochar.

    The Metzler Biochar Adventure has been a $2 million 
research and development project that is producing useful 
product, excess heat to displace 350,000 gallons of propane per 
year, and our fire wood drying kilns, and a path to enter the 
carbon credit market early next year through collaboration with 
a major national carbon project developer and a yet-to-be-
determined biochar carbon credit registry.

    We have also been a strong supporter of the USDA-funded 
mass bio project to investigate new markets for our biochar 
products. It is clear that biochar is part of the solution to 
many global problems when produced by the trainload, but we 
have to first start with truckloads. The BIOCHAR Act will be a 
springboard for scaling biochar carbon projects leading to the 
normalization of the production and use of biochar that will 
remove carbon from the atmosphere, create good jobs, improve 
forest management, and create products that change our lives 
and make our lives better.
    Thank you for the invitation to speak and hearing my 
thoughts.

    [The prepared statement of Mr. Sherren follows:]
  Prepared Statement of Patrick Sherren, representing Metzler Forest 
                              Products LLC
             on Discussion Draft of H.R. ____, BIOCHAR Act

    Good afternoon legislators, staff and fellow attendees. I'm Pat 
Sherren, the Director of New Product Development at Metzler Forest 
Products; and I've been asked by the US Biochar Coalition to make a 
statement representing myself and Metzler.
    I graduated from West Virginia University in 1986 with a Bachelor 
of Science degree in Forest Resource Management as an unlikely forester 
who secured a coveted forester job at Westvaco's Luke Maryland 
papermill, where I navigated 5 mergers and buyouts to develop new fiber 
supply areas, new fiber supply sources, to work on special projects 
critical to the mill's operation, and finally being the last chip buyer 
before the mill's closure June 2019. A large part of the new fiber 
supply areas and sources were developed through my relationship with 
Alan Metzler.
    Alan and Jill Metzler started our 2-generation run family business 
with one cable skidder and one pickup truck in 1987. We are now 90 
strong operating all over the Mid-Atlantic region providing timber 
harvesting and forestry services, land clearing and grubbing, custom 
chipping and grinding, soils, mulches, composts and biochar products.
    In August 2019, Alan said he and others at Metzler had crazy ideas 
and no time to chase them down, and asked if I was interested in 
chasing down those ideas. I said absolutely, and the great biochar 
adventure started!
    A quick search on the Google machine may cause you to think biochar 
will save the world. It may not be the end all be all, but it will be 
part of the solution to improve our lives through enhanced soil health, 
improved livestock and poultry production, improved stormwater 
management and water filtration; with emerging uses in building 
products, asphalt, concrete and steel production, and the oil and 
natural gas industry.
    The UN's Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change lists biochar as 
one of only a few shovel-ready and scalable ways to quickly and 
efficiently sequester carbon. The science and art of good forest 
management has been developing in the US for over 100 years. No matter 
what your environmental and political view for timber harvesting or 
climate change, we can always do better.
    Science proves that forest management efficiently captures and 
sequesters carbon in timely forest management harvest cycles; by 
regenerating young forests that aggressively capture carbon, letting 
those forests mature and sequester carbon, harvesting them at their 
economic and carbon sequester peak while controlling invasive species, 
and starting again with new young forest. Good and timely forest 
management also reduces forest fire fuel. Both of these benefits to 
society also drive economic development through the production of 
forest products that touch our lives every day, particularly in rural 
areas.
    Many thousands and maybe tens of thousands of acres of poor forest 
sites in the US need to be managed to improve forest health and 
productivity, but there are not enough markets to support that forest 
management. That means there is A LOT of fiber in US forests that could 
be converted to many valuable products like biochar.
    The Metzler biochar adventure has been a VERY expensive lab 
experiment that is producing a useful product, excess process heat to 
displace 350,000 gallons of propane per year in our firewood drying 
kilns, and a path to enter the carbon credit market early next year 
through collaboration with a major national carbon project developer 
and a yet to be determined biochar carbon credit registry. We've also 
been a strong supporter of the USDA funded MASBio project to 
investigate new markets for our biochar products.
    It is clear that biochar is part of the solution to many global 
problems when produced by the train load, but we have to first start 
with truckloads. The BIOCHAR Act will be a spring board for scaling 
biochar carbon projects that will lead to the normalization of the 
production and use of biochar.
    Thank you for the invitation to speak and hearing my thoughts!

                                 ______
                                 

    Mr. Tiffany. Thank you, sir. I would now like to recognize 
Representative Lamborn to introduce our next witness.
    Mr. Lamborn. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and I am about to 
have to go to another hearing. But before I do, it is my honor 
to introduce Dwayne McFall, a Fremont County Commissioner in 
Colorado. For 16 years, I had the honor of representing Fremont 
County here in Congress.
    Mr. McFall was first elected to be the Commissioner for 
District 3 in 2016. Duane has been involved in agriculture all 
his life, and knows the importance of land conservation. After 
attending West Texas A&M University in Canyon, Texas, where he 
earned a BS degree in agriculture business and economics, 
Dwayne moved to Fremont County in 1992 with his family. He and 
his wife, Kendra, have a family of five children and five 
grandchildren. He is a lifetime member of many outdoor and 
conservation organizations, being a huge supporter of 
conservation efforts for wildlife and livestock, and is an avid 
sportsman.
    It is my pleasure to welcome Commissioner McFall to our 
hearing today.

STATEMENT OF THE HON. DWAYNE McFALL, COMMISSIONER, DISTRICT 3, 
                    FREMONT COUNTY, COLORADO

    Mr. McFall. Thank you, Congressman Lamborn. Chairman 
Tiffany, Ranking Member Neguse, and members of the 
Subcommittee, thank you for the invitation to testify in 
support of H.R. 4717, the Locally Led Restoration Act. My name 
is Dwayne McFall. I am a Fremont County, Colorado Commissioner, 
where I have been a resident for over 30 years. I offer my 
testimony on behalf of the National Association of Counties 
today.
    We have a population of 48,000, and serve as a gateway to 
two national forests and wilderness areas. With 46 percent of 
our county owned by the Federal Government, decisions made in 
DC impact the well-being of our communities. We need a strong 
intergovernmental relationship with our Federal partners to 
thrive.
    We have seen an increase in wildfire over the past few 
decades because of reduced management in our nation's forests. 
The additional spike in recreational visitors, while good for 
our economy, leads to a heightened wildfire risk both from 
illegal and legal campfires. Proactively managing vegetation 
and hazardous fuels in the forest is critical for lowering the 
risk. Unfortunately, we have taken a passive approach to 
managing our national forests, leaving them overcrowded and 
unhealthy while restraining our ability to grow our local 
economies.
    Healthy forests generally contain 50 to 80 trees per acre. 
Colorado's overcrowded national forests have between 250 and 
300 trees per acre, serving as kindling for the next big mega-
fire. Despite the threat, we have not taken the necessary steps 
to reduce it. In the 1980s, the United States produced around 
20 times the board foot of timber we produce today. As we 
reduce the amount of timber harvested, the number of wildfires 
and acres burning increased exponentially. We must do better.
    In 2016, the Hayden Creek wildfire in western Fremont 
County burned over 16,000 acres, mostly on U.S. forest land. 
The large amount of beetle kill served as ready fuel for the 
wildfire caused by lightning. Today, the landscape is littered 
with fallen, no-value wood, which pollutes our watershed and 
threatens livelihoods.
    In 2020, Colorado experienced two of the worst fires ever. 
The Cameron Peak Fire burned over 208,000 acres and the East 
Troublesome fire burned over 130,000 acres, destroying or 
damaging over 800 homes. Like the Hayden Creek Fire, these two 
were also fueled by beetle kill trees. Proactive removal of 
this fuel source is no longer an option, it is an absolute 
necessity.
    By improving relationships and intergovernmental patterns 
outside the organization, we can re-establish healthy forests. 
In recent years stewardship contracts have been used by the 
Federal agencies to improve forest health. Stewardship 
contracts mandate the contractor to complete other tasks such 
as infrastructure repairs to which timber harvest is secondary.
    However, the agencies do not have flexibility to utilize 
stewardship contracts in the way to truly impact overall 
Federal forest health. H.R. 4717 would improve the 
implementation of stewardship contracts to better support 
restoration projects and create good-paying jobs. We appreciate 
Congressman Lamborn in sponsoring this bill.
    The bill allows third-party contractors to propose their 
own stewardship contract to the U.S. Forest Service or the 
Bureau of Land Management, and at least 10 percent of the 
vegetation is to be removed as salvage, defined as beetle kill, 
dead or dying trees, wildfire kill. Allowing a third party to 
propose a stewardship contract would better inform the agencies 
as to what specific timber is most valuable to the mills.
    The provision would not impose new responsibilities or 
authorizations, as tribes are currently allowed to propose 
their own stewardship contracts to the Federal Government.
    The bill ensures agencies can reject or amend proposed 
contracts, and will not force them to accept insufficient 
contracts.
    The bill does not change the process for the Federal timber 
harvest. It only makes the necessary improvements to the 
stewardship contracting.
    Additionally, the bill would raise the $10,000 cap where 
agencies are not required to advertise timber sales to $55,000. 
The cap was established in 1976, and has never been adjusted 
for inflation. This will give agencies the ability to expedite 
timber sales.
    For western counties, new stewardship contract authorities 
can help kick start new forest product industries. And unlike 
in the northwest, for example, our forest predominantly 
consists of small diameter pine not suitable for major lumber 
mills. The bill would help facilitate their removal in a cost 
effective manner, which will improve the landscape and provide 
fiber for emerging industries.
    Thank you for the invitation to testify, and Counties urge 
Congress to adopt H.R. 4717 promptly. I look forward to your 
questions. Thank you.

    [The prepared statement of Mr. McFall follows:]
   Prepared Statement of the Honorable Dwayne McFall, Commissioner, 
                        Fremont County, Colorado
                              on H.R. 4717

    Chairman Tiffany, Ranking Member Neguse and members of the 
Subcommittee on Federal Lands, thank you for the invitation to testify 
at today's hearing in support of H.R. 4717, the Locally Led Restoration 
Act.
    My name is Dwayne McFall, and I am in my second term as a Fremont 
County, Colorado Commissioner. I was born and raised across the state 
line in New Mexico, but I have been a resident of Fremont County for 
over thirty years, where I raised my family. I am an avid outdoorsman 
and sportsman with a passion for wildlife and livestock conservation. I 
offer my testimony today on behalf of the National Association of 
Counties (NACo).
    Fremont County has a population of approximately 48,000 people and 
serves as a gateway to the San Isabel and Pike National Forests, along 
with the Sangre de Cristo Wilderness Area. With more than 46 percent of 
our landscape owned by the federal government, the decisions made by 
Congress and federal lands agencies directly impact the well-being of 
residents and visitors, landscape resiliency and our county's economic 
prospects. We need a strong, cooperative intergovernmental relationship 
with our federal partners to thrive.
    Like many parts of the West, Fremont County has seen an increase in 
wildfire over the past few decades because of reduced management 
activities in our national forests. The recent additional spike in 
recreational visitors to our federal lands by recreators, while 
generally good for the local economy, leads to heightened wildfire 
risks from both legal and illegal campfires. Proactively reducing and 
managing the vegetation and hazardous fuels in the forests is critical 
for lowering this risk to our communities and environment.
Lack of Timber Harvests and the Increased Threat of Wildfire

    Catastrophic wildfires disproportionately threaten western 
communities and pollute our environment. In 2023, we have been 
fortunate to see only 2.5 million acres have burned nationwide, 
compared to the 7 million acres burned on average annually over the 
past two decades. The forest health and wildfire crisis will only be 
solved if federal agencies forge strong partnerships with state, local 
and Tribal governments, as well as private industry.
    Unfortunately, agencies and Congress took a passive approach to 
managing our national forests over the past three decades. This left 
our forests overcrowded and unhealthy, while restraining our ability to 
grow our local forest products economies. Healthy forests generally 
contain 50-80 trees per acre, depending on the type of forest and 
surrounding environment. Colorado's national forests have between 250-
300 trees per acre. Some national forests in other parts of the country 
contain 600-800 per acre, serving as kindling for the next devastating 
blaze.
    In spite of this obvious, looming threat, agencies and Congress 
still have not taken all the necessary steps to reduce it. In the 
1980s, the United States produced around 20-times the board foot of 
timber we produce today. As we reduced the amount of timber harvested, 
the number of wildfires and acres burned increased exponentially, 
resulting in the calamity the West faces today. We must do better for 
our environment and communities.
    In 2016, the Hayden Creek wildfire in western Fremont County burned 
over 16,000 acres, mostly on US Forest Service land. Like in many parts 
of the west, the large amount of beetle kill served as ready fuel for a 
wildfire caused by lightning. Today the landscape is littered with 
fallen, no value trees, which pollute the watershed and threaten 
livelihoods.
    More recently, in 2020, Colorado experienced two of the worst fires 
in our state's history. The Cameron Peak fire burned 208,663 acres, and 
the East Troublesome fire burned 130,000 acres. These fires damaged or 
destroyed over 800 homes. Like the Hayden Creek fire, these two were 
also fueled by beetle kill trees. Proactive removal of these fuel 
sources is no longer an option--it's an absolute necessity to protect 
people and the environment.
H.R. 4717, Locally Led Restoration Act

    By improving relationships with intergovernmental partners and 
outside organizations, especially the private sector, we can 
reestablish healthy and resilient federal forests. In recent years, 
stewardship contracts have been one of the most effective tools used by 
federal agencies to improve forest health and local economic prospects. 
A stewardship contract is one in which the contractor is mandated to 
complete another task, such as repairing infrastructure on federal 
lands, that is secondary to timber harvesting.
    However, federal lands agencies and private sector partners do not 
have the needed flexibility under current law to utilize stewardship 
contracts in a way that will truly impact overall federal forest 
health. H.R. 4717, the Locally Led Restoration Act, would improve the 
implementation of stewardship contracts to better support landscape 
restoration projects and create good paying jobs within our 
communities. We appreciate Congressman Doug Lamborn for sponsoring this 
legislation. H.R. 4717 improves the stewardship contract system in 
several important ways.
    First, it allows third party contractors such as an 
intergovernmental partner, private industry or even a conservation 
group to propose their own stewardship contract to the U.S. Forest 
Service or Bureau of Land Management if at least 10% of the vegetation 
to be removed is salvage. The bill defines salvage as beetle kill, dead 
or dying trees or wildfire kill. Allowing a third party to propose a 
stewardship contract will better inform the agencies of what specific 
timber in most valuable to mills.
    This provision would not impose new responsibilities or authorities 
on federal lands agencies. Under the Tribal Forest Protection Act, 
tribes are allowed to propose their own stewardship contracts to the 
federal government. The bill ensures agencies have the authority to 
reject or amend any proposed stewardship contracts from third parties 
and will not force them into accepting an insufficient proposal. To be 
clear, this legislation does not change the established process for 
timber harvests on federal lands--it only makes necessary improvements 
to stewardship contracting.
    Additionally, the bill raises the $10,000 cap where agencies are 
not required to advertise timber sales to $55,000. This cap was 
established in 1976 but has never been adjusted for inflation. Raising 
it to $55,000 reflects the change in currency value over the past five 
decades. This will give agencies the ability to approve smaller timber 
sales expeditiously.
    For Colorado counties and others in the West, new stewardship 
contracting authorities can help kickstart new forest products 
industries in our communities. Unlike in the Pacific Northwest, for 
example, our forests predominantly consist of small diameter pine trees 
that are typically not suitable for major lumber mills. By improving 
the stewardship contract program, federal agencies can facilitate the 
removal of small diameter trees in a cost-effective manner, which will 
improve the landscape and provide the needed fiber for emerging forest 
products industries, such as the manufacture of wood pellets for energy 
generation.
Conclusion

    Chairman Tiffany and members of the Subcommittee, thank you for the 
invitation to testify. Counties urge Congress to enact forest health 
legislation that facilitates economic growth in the rural west. The 
Locally Led Restoration Act will create a better, more sustainable 
mechanism to implement stewardship contracts on federal lands to 
benefit the environment and create jobs in our communities. We urge 
Congress to adopt H.R. 4717 promptly.
    I look forward to your questions.

                                 ______
                                 

     Questions Submitted for the Record to the Hon. Dwayne McFall, 
              Commissioner--District 3, Fremont County, CO

             Questions Submitted by Representative Lamborn

    Question 1. Mr. McFall, can you talk about forestry in Colorado and 
across the West in general? What unique challenges do you face? What 
problems would you like to see fixed?

    Answer. Forests in Colorado and the West face many challenges. 
Drought, insect and disease infestation, and lack of proper management 
over the past three decades have left our wildland-urban interface and 
watersheds littered with no-value trees, which are fuel for the next 
mega fire. Thinning of forest to remove fuels will make a healthy 
forest and watershed. However, our forests in Colorado do not contain 
the merchantable timber you see in the Pacific Northwest. We need the 
federal government to partner with the private sector to remove these 
wildfire fuel sources and create jobs in our communities. H.R. 4717 
will help achieve those outcomes.

    Question 2. What makes fulfilling contracts so difficult?

    Answer. Federal lands agencies have decreased the availability of 
timber for harvests, which makes private industry increasingly 
skeptical that federal lands will provide a reliable supply of fiber. 
This leads to fewer mills being constructed near federal lands, which 
means that timber removed from a federal forest must be hauled a much 
longer distance, thus reducing profitability for the private sector.

    Question 3. What makes western timber unique from timber that you 
may find on the west coast?

    Answer. Timber in places like Colorado, New Mexico and Arizona is 
smaller in diameter compared to the Northwest. It is not suitable for 
larger mills and therefore requires smaller contractors and different 
equipment within the mills to process it. Additionally, much of the 
fiber from our forests is best utilized for innovative products, like 
wood pellets to produce energy.

    Question 4. Mills around the country are disappearing and have been 
in decline since the 90s. What prevents contractors from harvesting 
enough timber to be financially viable?

    Answer. In addition to the unreliable fiber supply from our federal 
forests, the ability to acquire a contract and federal agencies' 
unwillingness to sign a contract for a profitable period of time hinder 
our ability to grow this sector of our economy. Additionally, for 
stewardship contracts, there is no room to negotiate--if a contract's 
terms are not profitable for a company, they may not counter-offer. 
Private industry knows what works for companies and should have room to 
work with the federal government in developing contracts.

    Question 5. How will the Locally Led Restoration Act help 
communities like yours?

    Answer. The Locally Led Restoration Act will give contractors the 
ability to negotiate a contract, kickstarting new forest products 
industries while cleaning the dead and falling trees from our 
watersheds. Improving the landscape and allowing new industries to 
emerge is not only good for forest health but for the economy in rural 
areas that have been struggling for many years.

             Questions Submitted by Representative Fulcher

    Question 1. Mr. McFall, highlighted in your written testimony, 
Congress has taken an approach to managing our forests that has not 
yielded results in the best interest of our state, local, and tribal 
entities. As I have stated before in this Committee, 63% of our land in 
the State of Idaho is federally controlled, and we are far too familiar 
in knowing just how devasting dry vegetation can be during the fire 
season. Earlier this year, I sponsored legislation out of this 
Committee, H.R. 1450, Treating Tribes and Counties as Good Neighbors 
Act, which requires Tribes and Counties to retain revenue generated 
from tinder sales under the good neighbor agreement.

    I am curious if you could expand on how such flexibility in H.R. 
4717 for interagency work is first implemented at the local level. What 
do those initial steps look like, and what support do local communities 
need going beyond those initial steps?

                                 ______
                                 

    Mr. Tiffany. Mr. McFall, thank you very much for your 
testimony. Now I would like to introduce Mr. Jason Meyer, the 
Executive Director of the White Oak Initiative.
    Mr. Meyer, you have 5 minutes.

    STATEMENT OF JASON MEYER, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, WHITE OAK 
               INITIATIVE, GRAND RAPIDS, MICHIGAN

    Mr. Meyer. Chairman Tiffany, Ranking Member Neguse, and 
members of the Subcommittee, thank you for the opportunity to 
speak with you today on H.R. 5582, the White Oak Resilience 
Act.
    I would also like to thank Chairman Westerman for his work 
on white oak, and Representative Andy Barr and Representative 
Ami Bera for their leadership on this critical issue.
    My name is Jason Meyer, and I am the Executive Director of 
the White Oak Initiative. This initiative is a coalition made 
up of conservation non-profits, forestry associations, 
universities, state and Federal forestry partners, forest 
industries, landowners, and the distilled spirits industry. We 
are all concerned about the future of white oak and upland 
hardwood forests where they currently exist.
    My career in the natural resources has led me to do 
multiple things, including working for the Forest Service in 
Idaho, working for a non-profit partner of the Forest Service 
in Southern California, and running two nature centers focused 
on educating urban youth about our natural world, including the 
resources that we extract and that we must steward well to 
ensure that they are there for future generations.
    For several years, I served as a forester with the 
California Department of Forestry and Fire Protection, today 
known as Cal Fire, and I understand and appreciate all that 
this Committee does to address forest and fire management in 
the West. While that is a topic that is often discussed before 
this Subcommittee, today I would like to discuss forest 
management in the central and eastern United States.
    Namely, I am here to speak with you today about the 
American white oak. The white oak is what we refer to as a 
keystone species, meaning that its health is an indicator of 
the entire ecosystem's health. This tree species is truly one 
of the most important for wildlife, biodiversity, and the 
economy.
    White oak has abundant and nutritious acorns that feed a 
broad variety of wildlife, from bears to mice, deer to turkey, 
and it is an important host to literally hundreds of beneficial 
pollinator insects.
    Economically, white oak is used for almost every type of 
forest product on the market, from high quality flooring, 
furniture, railroad ties, cabinetry, as well as lumber and a 
multitude of other uses. The use that has recently gained the 
most attention, however, is that white oak is the preferred 
wood to make the barrels in which spirits are aged, including 
America's native spirit, bourbon.
    The Code of Federal Regulations requires bourbon to be aged 
in a new oak barrel. To be clear, it doesn't have to be a white 
oak barrel, but white oak not only has a tighter grain, which 
allows less evaporation as distilled spirits are aged, but it 
also contains the sugars and other chemicals that give bourbon 
its unique color and flavor. This is truly a remarkable treat.
    There is a looming crisis for the white oak, though, and we 
are uniquely positioned to be proactive rather than reactive, 
which works much better for sound upland oak forest 
stewardship, given how long it takes for management actions to 
effect change in future forests.
    The FIA data, or Forest Inventory Analysis data, clearly 
shows that while there are plenty of mature white oak trees in 
our forest today, there are relatively few seedlings and 
saplings that will make up tomorrow's mature forest. This is 
not a bright future for white oak.
    This is a species that thrives when forests are disturbed. 
And while there was a great deal of disturbance in the forests 
of the past in recent years, this is less the case. There has 
been less active management and less fire on the landscape. 
Invasive species such as kudzu are overtaking and outcompeting 
white oak seedlings. But it isn't just these invasive species. 
White oak is slow growing, and it likes partial sunlight. So, 
without that disturbance that creates openings in the forest 
canopy, shade tolerant trees such as maple, beech, and poplar 
are easily outcompeting white oak seedlings, too.
    This FIA data shows that in just 10 to 20 years, we will 
begin to see a decline in the number of mature white oaks on 
the landscape, with an even more precipitous decline after that 
unless we take immediate action today on several fronts.
    Starting now, we must help landowners and forest managers, 
both public and private, actively manage our white oak forest 
to restore their health by removing competing species, 
preventing diseases and further spread of invasive species, and 
creating openings for this tree to flourish.
    We must work to develop markets for the smaller diameter 
trees that must be removed to make space for our oaks, as this 
is a significant barrier for landowners who must invest capital 
in management practices that they may never see the financial 
return on in their lifetimes.
    We must continue to support research that will improve the 
vigor of this species to allow it to better withstand the 
obstacles that it must overcome to mature, including climate 
change.
    And we must invest in the infrastructure necessary, such as 
nurseries, to augment the natural regeneration that we are 
trying to lift up.
    And, of course, we must continue to collaborate and work 
together across boundaries, disciplines, and sometimes 
competing interests to face this challenge head on.
    H.R. 5582 supports these efforts and outcomes as it seeks 
to directly reverse the decline of white oak regeneration in 
our forests. The White Oak Initiative worked closely with 
Representatives Barr and Bera, and with the House Natural 
Resources and Agriculture Committees to craft the language in 
the bill. I am happy to report that the bill is bipartisan and 
budget conscious, as it doesn't authorize any new funding or 
programs, but instead works within the existing programs at the 
USDA Forest Service and the Natural Resources Conservation 
Service.
    I would like to urge every member of this Committee to 
support H.R. 5582. Thank you for the opportunity to testify 
today, and I look forward to your questions.

    [The prepared statement of Mr. Meyer follows:]
   Prepared Statement of Jason Meyer, Executive Director, White Oak 
                               Initiative
                              on H.R. 5582

    Chairman Tiffany, Ranking Member Neguse and members of the 
Subcommittee, thank you for the opportunity to testify today on H.R. 
5582, the White Oak Resilience Act. I would also like to thank Chairman 
Westerman for his work on white oak and Representatives Andy Barr and 
Ami Bera for their leadership on this important issue.
    I am the executive director of the White Oak Initiative and a 
forester by training. The White Oak Initiative is a diverse coalition 
of non-profits, trade associations, universities, state and federal 
forestry partners, forest industry representatives, landowners, and the 
distilled spirits industry. All of these are concerned about the future 
of white oak populations and the upland hardwood forests they are found 
in. We are committed to the long-term sustainability of America's white 
oak forests as well as the economic, social, and environmental benefits 
they provide.
    American white oak (Quercus alba) is a tree species currently 
occupying more than 104 million acres of public and private forestland 
across much of the eastern and central United States. American white 
oak has a strong presence in Alabama, Arkansas, Georgia, Illinois, 
Indiana, Iowa, Kentucky, Maryland, Michigan, Minnesota, Missouri, 
Pennsylvania, North Carolina, Ohio, Tennessee, Virginia, West Virginia 
and Wisconsin. Not only do white oak forests support extensive plant 
and animal biodiversity, but white oak is also the most commercially 
important timber oak, generating billions of dollars annually, boosting 
rural economies, and supplying necessary material to industries such as 
furniture, flooring, cabinetry, railroad ties, and wine and spirits.

The Challenge

    Today's white oak forests are dominated by older mature oak trees. 
Younger trees and seedlings are not regenerating at historic levels and 
without action now, the population of white oak in our forests will 
decline significantly in the next 20-50 years. This will have a 
profound negative impact not just on the numerous forest products 
industries reliant on white oak, but also on wildlife, including game 
species such as deer, turkey, and ruffed grouse (hunting licenses are 
an important source of revenue for states). As a keystone species in 
the ecosystem, the impact goes beyond our favorite game species, 
though, and will negatively impact over 500 other species of birds, 
bats, and pollinating insects that depend on this species for their 
survival. Clearly this is an ecological dilemma as well as a commercial 
one.

    To protect and enhance American white oak populations, we need to 
work together--thinking, planning, and acting--to prevent a looming 
crisis. The only way we will be successful at regenerating white oak 
for the future is to set the stage for what this species needs to 
survive and thrive--namely disturbance in the forest that creates 
conditions for sunlight to reach the forest floor. Seventy years ago, 
when today's mature trees were just seedlings, public and private 
landowners were actively logging, fire was more prevalent on the 
landscape, invasive species did not have the foothold that they have 
today, and forests were not being converted to other land uses at the 
current rate. As forest management activities slowed, fires began to be 
suppressed, and invasive species moved in, white oak seedlings became 
threatened by direct competitors that do much better in shaded forest 
conditions.

In More Detail: The White Oak Assessment & Conservation Plan

    To address this problem, the White Oak Initiative, with support 
from USFS Region 8 and 9 Landscape Scale Restoration Grants (which 
includes participation from 17 state agencies, as well as conservation 
groups and key public and private partners), began developing a range-
wide, science-based report detailing the current state of America's 
white oak forests. This report, ``Restoring Sustainability for White 
Oak and Upland Oak Communities: An Assessment and Conservation Plan,'' 
recommends a practical plan of action to avoid upland oak decline.

    According to the report, shifts in land management and ecological 
changes throughout much of the white oak range are resulting in an 
increase of competing species establishing themselves in white oak 
forests. These competing species, most notably maples, beech, and 
poplar, are shading out white oak seedlings, preventing them from 
surviving to maturity. As a result, older white oak trees are not being 
replaced by younger white oak trees at a pace that will support long-
term sustainability. The report also highlights the importance of other 
challenges such as invasive insects and diseases, climate change and 
behavior change.

    The report demonstrates that to restore the long-term 
sustainability of America's white oak forests, and maintain the 
economic, social, and environmental benefits they provide, we need 
active cross-boundary collaboration, participation, and support from 
industry, resource professionals, policymakers, landowners, and others 
who can align knowledge and resources behind the report's 10 
recommended forest management practices before it's too late.

    A full copy of the report has been submitted with this testimony 
and may be found on the White Oak Initiative website at https://
www.whiteoakinitiative.org/assessment-conservation-plan.
H.R. 5582, The White Oak Resilience Act

    Knowing that Federal action would be a key component of the 
solution, the White Oak Initiative worked closely with the White Oak 
Caucus in the House of Representatives (Chairs are Rep. Andy Barr, Rep. 
Ami Bera, Rep. Steve Cohen, and Rep. Scott DesJarlais), the House 
Natural Resources Committee, and the House Agriculture Committee to 
draft H.R. 5582 to mitigate the white oak regeneration problem. Given 
the long-lived life cycle of the white oak, we must actively manage our 
upland oak forests now to ensure that today's seedlings can outcompete 
the species that will crowd them out, and to do so means providing the 
support necessary to remove barriers for landowners, agencies, and 
conservation groups catalyzing on-the-ground action. Importantly, the 
bill does not authorize any new funding, new programs, nor should it 
carry a mandatory score from the Congressional Budget Office. Instead, 
H.R. 5582 would work within existing USDA Forest Service and Natural 
Resource Conservation Service programs to address the problem.
    In summary, the bill:

     Codifies the White Oak Restoration Initiative Coalition--
            based on the current White Oak Initiative, this body of 
            state, private and federal partners would work together to 
            regenerate white oak across its range.

     Creates pilot projects for the US Forest Service and the 
            Department of the Interior to reforest and regenerate white 
            oak where appropriate.

     Creates a white oak restoration fund where private funding 
            could be used to fund white oak regeneration on national 
            forests through the National Forest Foundation.

     Allows the Civilian Conservation Corps to plant white oak 
            and other associated hardwoods to re-establish native 
            hardwood forests.

     Solves the tree nursery problem by requiring the Forest 
            Service to develop and implement a national strategy to 
            increase the capacity of Federal, State, Tribal and private 
            tree nurseries. This is not limited to white oak, but 
            instead includes all tree species and would help the Forest 
            Service meet its reforestation backlog goals.

     Allows the Forest Service to enter Memorandums of 
            Understanding with land grant institutions, including 
            Historically Black Colleges, to conduct much-needed 
            research on white oak.

     Prioritizes white oak projects by directing USDA's Natural 
            Resources Conservation Service (NRCS) to create a formal 
            initiative on white oak (similar to the Longleaf Pine 
            Initiative and the Sage Grouse Initiative at USDA).

     Encourages the use of existing authorities that foster 
            collaboration (the Good Neighbor and Stewardship 
            Contracting authorities).

Restoring the Long-Term Sustainability of White Oak is Possible

    Starting today, we must help both public and private landowners and 
forest managers actively manage our white oak forests to restore their 
health by removing competing tree species, prevent diseases and further 
spread of invasive species, and create openings for this sun-loving 
tree to flourish. We must work to develop markets for the smaller 
diameter trees that must be removed to make space for our oaks, as this 
is a significant barrier for landowners who must invest capital in 
management practices that they may never see the return on in their 
lifetimes. We must continue to support research that will improve the 
vigor of this species to allow it to better withstand the obstacles it 
must overcome to mature, including climate change. We must invest in 
the infrastructure necessary, such as nurseries, to augment the natural 
regeneration that we are trying to lift up. And, we must continue to 
collaborate and work together across boundaries, disciplines, and 
sometimes competing interests to face this challenge head-on. H.R. 5582 
supports these efforts and outcomes.
    Ensuring the regeneration of our upland oak forests is possible, 
but immediate action must be taken. The White Oak Initiative would like 
to thank the Natural Resources Committee for highlighting this 
incredibly important problem and we stand ready to assist in any 
possible way.

                                 ______
                                 

    Mr. Tiffany. Thank you, Mr. Meyer. Next, I would like to 
introduce Ms. Janessa Goldbeck, the CEO of the Vet Voice 
Foundation.
    Ms. Goldbeck, thank you for being here, and you have 5 
minutes.

   STATEMENT OF JANESSA GOLDBECK, CEO, VET VOICE FOUNDATION, 
                        PORTLAND, OREGON

    Ms. Goldbeck. Thank you. Good afternoon, Mr. Chair, Ranking 
Member Neguse, members of the Committee and their staff. My 
name is Janessa Goldbeck. I am a service-connected disabled 
veteran who served just under 7 years in the United States 
Marine Corps as a combat engineer officer. I am also the CEO of 
Vet Voice Foundation, a national, non-partisan advocacy 
organization that represents more than 1.5 million veterans, 
military family members, and supporters. I appreciate being 
invited to appear before you today.
    At Vet Voice Foundation, we work to ensure veterans and 
military families have their voices heard by decision makers 
here in Washington and throughout the country. A major area of 
our focus is on preserving and protecting our nation's public 
lands, and ensuring all veterans and military families have 
access to them.
    Among all the communities that benefit from public spaces, 
the military and veterans community maintain a unique 
relationship with public lands. From the heights of Mount Baldy 
to the deserts of Joshua Tree, our nation's public lands have 
long provided the necessary refuge and respite from the demands 
of military service. These are places of reflection, reunion, 
and healing for veterans and our families, as long as they are 
accessible to all.
    It is with this point in mind that I appear before you 
today in support of the bipartisan Promoting Accessibility on 
Federal Lands Act, led by Congresswoman Melanie Stansbury of 
New Mexico and Congressman Juan Ciscomani of Arizona.
    This common-sense legislation directs the U.S. Secretaries 
of Agriculture and Interior to conduct a comprehensive 
assessment of accessibility options for trails, campsites, and 
facilities on federally managed public lands. Such an 
assessment will provide a screenshot of where we need to make 
improvements to ensure all, veterans and non-veterans alike, 
are able to enjoy our nation's public lands.
    Before I joined the Marines, I spent much of my free time 
outdoors. I think that is a trait shared by many who are drawn 
to military service. Growing up in Southern California, I 
served San Diego's coastline, section-hiked the Pacific Crest 
Trail, and summited Mount Whitney. Throughout my time on active 
duty, when I wasn't deployed, public lands were a place where I 
could decompress and reconnect with friends and family. I have 
incredible memories from the Wheeler Park Wilderness, on the 
Colorado River, and traversing the Alpine Lakes Wilderness.
    But, of course, military service takes a toll on your body 
and your mind, whether you served in combat or not. According 
to the U.S. Census Bureau, post-9/11 veterans like myself have 
a 43 percent chance of having a service-connected disability. 
While disabilities range from minor to extreme, all veterans 
stand to benefit from time spent with nature and on our public 
lands.
    No one should miss out or be left behind. These lands 
should be accessible to all. I know that members of this 
Committee agree with me, and you have taken steps to ensure 
that. In fact, during the 117th Congress, the Accelerating 
Veterans Recovery Outdoors Act as part of the COMPACT Act was 
passed with large bipartisan support and signed into law by 
President Trump. This legislation, among other changes, 
instructs the Department of Veterans Affairs to establish a 
task force to investigate the benefits of outdoor recreation 
therapy for veterans.
    Moreover, veterans joined with many of you mobilizing and 
organizing in communities across the nation for years to ensure 
that the Land and Water Conservation Fund was permanently and 
fully funded, an effort that was finally achieved with the 
passage of the Great American Outdoors Act.
    In addition to public lands being part of the toolbox 
veterans turn to in the wake of their service, public lands 
have also been paramount in preserving our nation's military 
history. I would be remiss if I didn't take a moment to thank 
those of you on the Committee who have worked particularly over 
the past year alongside the Biden administration to safeguard 
military heritage sites like Camp Hale, Castner Range, and the 
ongoing efforts to see the proposed Chuckwalla National 
Monument made a reality.
    In closing, veterans and military families have long been 
central in efforts to expand, create, safeguard, and use our 
nation's greatest treasures: our public lands and waters. From 
fellow veteran, President Teddy Roosevelt, who used the 
Antiquities Act to protect millions of acres during his 
presidency, to World War II veteran Earl Shaffer, who became 
the first person to thru-hike the Appalachian Trail following 
his service in order to walk off the war, today veterans of all 
eras can be found enjoying and advocating for our public lands 
in all corners of the country. Wherever you find yourself 
enjoying public lands, you will find a veteran close by doing 
the same. But we must ensure these lands and waters are open 
and accessible to all.
    Again, I thank the Subcommittee for inviting me to 
participate today, and I am hopeful you will support H.R. 5665, 
the bipartisan Promoting Accessibility on Federal Lands Act. 
Thank you.

    [The prepared statement of Ms. Goldbeck follows:]
   Prepared Statement of Janessa Goldbeck, CEO, Vet Voice Foundation
                              on H.R. 5665

    Good afternoon. My name is Janessa Goldbeck. I'm a service-
connected disabled veteran who served just under seven years in the 
United States Marine Corps as a Combat Engineer Officer. I'm also the 
CEO of the Vet Voice Foundation, a national advocacy organization that 
represents more than 1.5 million veterans, military family members and 
supporters. I appreciate being invited to appear before you today.
    At Vet Voice Foundation, we work to ensure veterans and military 
families have their voices heard by decision-makers--here in Washington 
and throughout the country. A major area of our focus is on preserving 
and protecting our nation's public lands--and ensuring all veterans and 
military families have access to them.
    Among all the communities that benefit from public spaces, the 
military and veterans communities maintain a unique relationship with 
public lands. From the heights of Mount Katahdin to the deserts of 
Joshua Tree, our nation's public lands have long provided the necessary 
refuge and respite from the demands of military service. These are 
places of reflection, reunion, and healing for veterans and our 
families.
    As long as they're accessible to all.

    It's with this point in mind that I appear before you today in 
support of the bipartisan Promoting Accessibility on Federal Lands Act, 
led by Congresswoman Melanie Stansbury of New Mexico and Congressman 
Juan Ciscomani of Arizona. This commonsense legislation directs the 
U.S. Secretaries of Agriculture and Interior to conduct a comprehensive 
assessment of accessibility options for trails, campsites, and 
facilities on federally managed public lands. Such an assessment will 
provide a screenshot of where we need to make improvements to ensure 
all--veterans and non-veterans alike--are able to enjoy our nation's 
public lands.
    Before I joined the Marines, I spent much of my free time outdoors. 
I think that's a trait shared by many who are drawn to military 
service. Growing up in Southern California, I surfed San Diego's 
coastline, section-hiked the Pacific Crest Trail, and summitted Mount 
Whitney. Throughout my time on active duty, when I wasn't deployed, 
public lands were a place I could decompress and reconnect with friends 
and family--I have incredible memories from the Wheeler Park 
Wilderness, on the Colorado River, and traversing the Alpine Lakes 
Wilderness.
    But of course, military service takes a toll on your body and mind, 
whether you served in combat or not. According to the U.S. Census 
Bureau, post-9/11 veterans like me, have a 43% chance of having a 
service-connected disability. While disabilities range from minor to 
extreme, all Veterans stand to benefit from time spent with nature and 
on our public lands. No one should miss out or be left behind--these 
lands should be accessible to all.
    I know many of you agree with me, and you've taken steps to ensure 
that. In fact, during the 117th Congress, the Accelerating Veterans 
Recovery Outdoors Act, as part of the COMPACT Act, was passed with 
large bipartisan support and signed into law by President Trump. This 
legislation, among other charges, instructs the Department of Veterans 
Affairs to establish a taskforce to investigate the benefits of outdoor 
recreation therapy for veterans. Moreover, veterans joined with many of 
you--mobilizing and organizing in communities across the nation for 
years to ensure that the Land and Water Conservation Fund was 
permanently and fully funded, an effort that was finally achieved with 
passage of the Great American Outdoors Act.
    In addition to public lands being part of the toolbox veterans turn 
to in the wake of their service, public lands have also been paramount 
in preserving our nation's military history. I would be remiss if I 
didn't take a moment to thank those of you on the committee who've 
worked, particularly over the past year, alongside the Biden 
administration to safeguard military heritage sites like Camp Hale, 
Castner Range, and the ongoing efforts to see the proposed Chuckwalla 
National Monument made a reality.
    In closing, veterans and military families have long been central 
figures in efforts to create, expand, safeguard, and use our nation's 
greatest treasures--our public lands and waters. From fellow veteran 
President Teddy Roosevelt, who used the Antiquities Act to protect 
millions of acres during his presidency to World War II veteran Earl 
Shaffer, who became the first person to thru-hike the Appalachian Trail 
following his service to ``walk off the war'' to veterans of today who 
are found utilizing and enjoying public lands in all corners of the 
country.
    Wherever one finds oneself enjoying public lands one will find a 
veteran close by doing the same. But we must ensure these lands and 
waters are open and accessible to all. Again, I thank the Subcommittee 
for inviting me to participate today and I'm hopeful you'll support 
H.R. 5665, the bipartisan Promoting Accessibility on Federal Lands Act.
    Thank you.

                                 ______
                                 

    Mr. Tiffany. Thank you, Ms. Goldbeck. Next, I will 
recognize Ms. Linda Goodman, a retired Regional Forester and 
Forest Service Job Corps National Director at the National Job 
Corps Association.
    Ms. Goodman, welcome. You have 5 minutes.

STATEMENT OF LINDA GOODMAN, FORMER REGIONAL FORESTER AND FOREST 
    SERVICE JOB CORPS NATIONAL DIRECTOR, NATIONAL JOB CORPS 
                  ASSOCIATION, WASHINGTON, DC

    Ms. Goodman. Thank you, Chairman Tiffany and members of the 
Subcommittee, for inviting me to speak about the important work 
being conducted by the students and staff of the nation's Job 
Corps Civilian Conservation Centers, and the opportunity to 
further leverage those Job Corps CCCs through the CCC 
Enhancement Act.
    As a 22-year-old, I took a job as a receptionist in the 
Forest Service in a small rural town in the state of 
Washington, where there weren't many job opportunities 
available. I took a job, but over time I learned that I was 
working with people who took on a mission. They loved the land, 
enjoyed their work, and their passion was infectious, helping 
me to develop the same sense of purpose: a dedication to the 
land and our mission to conserve and protect it.
    Over the course of my 34-year career in the Forest Service, 
including stints as a Regional Forester and Forest Service 
Chief of Staff, my time directing the work of the Job Corps 
CCCs was among the most challenging and the most rewarding--
challenging because students who enroll in Job Corps often come 
from the most disadvantaged backgrounds, many homeless or aging 
out of foster care, and their stories when they arrive at our 
doors can be heartbreaking, but rewarding because I saw these 
young people ultimately change their stories for the better.
    Each year, the thousands of disadvantaged young people 
enrolled in Job Corps CCCs make significant contributions to 
our Federal lands mission. This year, Job Corps CCC students 
have provided 425,000 hours of support to the Federal land and 
rural development projects, including more than 280,000 hours 
of support to Federal wildland firefighting efforts at a time 
when maintaining the firefighting workforce is one of the 
agency's greatest challenges.
    Through service learning, Job Corps CCCs teach students 
skills, but also how to be a reliable member of a team. Wages 
earned as wildland firefighters enable them to afford the 
deposit on their first apartment or car and successfully 
transition into independence. Students frequently cite the 
prestige and earnings from service as motivation to behave, 
focus, and earn the opportunity to go out on the land and work.
    The Bipartisan CCC Enhancement Act would further leverage 
Job Corps CCCs to address some of the agency's most pressing 
priorities by providing the Forest Service with new 
flexibilities, not new funding, just new opportunities and new 
options.
    First, it would enable the Forest Service to extend job 
offers to Job Corps CCC graduates that the agency has trained 
in high-demand skills such as wildland firefighting and 
emergency dispatch. We invest in training these young people 
and even temporarily hire them as firefighters, but struggle to 
hire them because of the lengthy Federal hiring process. This 
bill would correct that.
    It would also allow the Forest Service to utilize existing 
funding for service learning projects, and to pay Job Corps 
workers. If during my time as a regional forester I could have 
bypassed the drawn-out Federal procurement process to bring in 
skilled Job Corps students to immediately address our highest-
priority deferred maintenance projects such as buildings that 
were literally falling down, Job Corps would have been my go-
to.
    Among the service learning projects encouraged by the bill 
is addressing homelessness among the heroes who serve as 
wildland firefighters by utilizing Job Corps students trained 
in carpentry, electrical repair, plumbing, or other building 
trades to rehabilitate the Forest Service's own stock of 
housing that has fallen into disrepair. One such project is 
already underway in the Gila National Forest.
    Finally, the bill would encourage the Forest Service and 
land management agencies to develop more career pathways, like 
the one I traveled, starting from entry level positions. 
Creating additional pathways into Federal service for Job Corps 
students and others who may not graduate college will broaden 
economic opportunity and potential for Federal officials to be 
more reflective of the constituents they serve, particularly in 
rural communities.
    The mission and work of the Job Corps CCCs is more vital 
than ever. I invite each of you to visit a Job Corps CCC campus 
to meet the students and learn about the incredible work they 
are doing on Federal lands. I know the National Job Corps 
Association would eagerly facilitate those visits.
    I hope you will support the passage of the CCC Enhancement 
Act, and I look forward to answering any questions you may 
have. Thank you.

    [The prepared statement of Ms. Goodman follows:]
   Prepared Statement of Linda Goodman, Regional Forester and Forest 
               Service Job Corps National Director (Ret.)
                              on H.R. 4353

    Thank you, Chairmen Westerman and Tiffany and Ranking Members 
Grijalva and Neguse, for inviting me to speak about the important work 
being conducted by the students and staff of the nation's Job Corps 
Civilian Conservation Centers. More specifically, I am here to speak in 
support of the Civilian Conservation Center (CCC) Enhancement Act which 
would allow our nation to better leverage the Job Corps CCCs to advance 
our federal land management mission.
    I came to the Forest Service not by design but by opportunity. As a 
22-year-old, I took a job as a receptionist in the Forest Service in a 
small rural town in the state of Washington where there weren't many 
job opportunities available. I took a job but, over time, I learned 
that I was working with people who took on a mission. They loved the 
land, enjoyed their work, and were deeply invested in the mission of 
the Forest Service. It was infectious and they helped me to develop 
that same sense of purpose: dedication to the land and our mission to 
conserve and protect it.
    Eventually my career path within the Forest Service brought me to 
the Siuslaw National Forest where I served as an Administrative Officer 
and later Deputy Forest Supervisor. There I had the chance to become 
involved with the Angell Job Corps Civilian Conservation Center. The 
students of Angell Job Corps CCCs, all of whom were 16 to 24 and 
economically disadvantaged, often worked alongside our employees and on 
behalf of the National Forest maintaining campgrounds, rehabilitating 
visitor and education facilities, clearing illegal camps, and even 
serving as wildland firefighters. I saw young people at the start of 
adulthood and their careers finding purpose in service and working on 
the land, just as I had many years earlier. When I was offered the 
chance to lead and help create a national management infrastructure for 
the Job Corps CCCs, I jumped at the opportunity.
    Over the course of my 34-year career in the Forest Service, 
including stints as a Regional Forester and Chief of Staff for the 
Forest Service, overseeing and directing the Job Corps Civilian 
Conservation Centers was among the most challenging and most rewarding 
work. Challenging because the students who enroll in Job Corps often 
come from the most disadvantaged backgrounds and their stories when 
they arrived at our doors could be heartbreaking. But it was the most 
rewarding work because we helped thousands of these young Americans 
find purpose and change their stories for the better.
    Job Corps' mission has always been aligned with that of the Forest 
Service and other land management agencies. In fact, Job Corps emerged 
partly from a desire to continue the work of the Civilian Conservation 
Corps that, during the Great Depression, put millions of unemployed 
young men at the cusp of adulthood to work on federal lands. As such, 
the Forest Service was deeply involved in the conception and design of 
the program. It was western and rural members of this body that enabled 
the passage of the Economic Opportunity Act of 1964, which created Job 
Corps, based on a desire to extend economic opportunity to their own 
communities through the Job Corps Civilian Conservation Centers (CCCs).
    The Job Corps CCCs continue to pay dividends on that investment. 
Each year, thousands of young men and women enroll in Job Corps CCCs, 
many of whom were homeless or aging out of foster care, and all of whom 
were struggling to secure employment and transition into a financially 
independent adulthood. But Job Corps isn't just a boon for these young 
Americans. Continuing the mission of the original CCCs, these young 
people annually contribute hundreds of thousands of hours of service on 
federal lands. This year, Job Corps CCCs students have so far provided 
425,000 hours of support to federal land and rural development 
projects, including more than 280,000 hours of support to federal 
wildland firefighting efforts. At the height of the 2023 fire season, 1 
of every 8 Job Corps CCC students was out supporting national fire 
efforts, including actively fighting fires. These young workers are an 
invaluable resource at a time when the Forest Service and other federal 
and state agencies are struggling to hire and retain wildland 
firefighters.
    Job Corps CCC students' contributions to our federal lands mission 
is significant and calculable. The value of giving young people a sense 
of purpose and belonging is immeasurable. Young adults continue to 
report increasing rates of reported anxiety, depression, and loneliness 
tied to feeling ``unmoored, directionless . . . and find[ing] little 
meaning in either school or work.''\1\ These challenges are even more 
acute in rural communities where opportunity is often more limited and 
social isolation easier.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \1\ Making Caring Common. (2023). On Edge: Understanding and 
Preventing Young Adults' Mental Health Challenges. https://
mcc.gse.harvard.edu/reports/on-edge
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Job Corps offers socially and economically disconnected young 
people an opportunity to reengage with education, career development, 
and a community. Through service-learning on federal lands Job Corps 
CCC students gain not only skills but perspective on what they have to 
offer and how to be a reliable member of a team. The money they earn as 
wildland firefighters sets them up for success in transitioning to 
independent living by enabling them to save enough to afford the 
deposit on their first apartment and buy their first car. Job Corps CCC 
students frequently cite the prestige and wages earned from these 
service-learning projects as motivation to behave, focus, and earn the 
opportunity to go out on the lands and work.
    The bipartisan CCC Enhancement Act introduced in the House by 
Representatives Salinas, Edwards, Guthrie, and Hoyle and in the Senate 
by Senators Merkley, Daines, King, and Rounds aims to leverage the Job 
Corps CCCs further by creating additional service-learning and career 
opportunities for Job Corps students. It would simply provide the 
Forest Service with new flexibilities to address some of the agency's 
most pressing priorities.
    For years, federal land management agencies have struggled to hire 
and retain wildland firefighters. In response to these needs, the 
Forest Service expanded the wildland firefighting and related offerings 
at its Job Corps CCC campuses across the country. As a result, every 
year the Forest Service is able to temporarily employ skilled Job Corps 
firefighters using an emergency authority. Unfortunately, once these 
firefighters graduate Job Corps, the Forest Service struggles to 
permanently employ them due to the cumbersome federal hiring process. 
More often than not, these economically disadvantaged Job Corps 
graduates lack the financial means to endure the lengthy federal hiring 
process. So they take other work and move on with their lives, denying 
the Forest Service the opportunity to hire firefighters it has 
specifically trained. The CCC Enhancement Act would correct this by 
creating a special hiring authority that enables the Forest Service to 
immediately extend employment offers to skilled Job Corps CCC 
graduates. It would assist the Forest Service in meeting Chief Moore's 
goal to hire hundreds of Job Corps graduates and firefighters in the 
coming years.\2\
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \2\ Moore, R. Hiring Job Corps Graduates--Leader's Intent. U.S. 
Forest Service. February 11, 2022.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Over the last few years, Congress made historic new federal 
investments in the Forest Service and land management agencies through 
the Great American Outdoors Act, the Bipartisan Infrastructure Law, and 
the Inflation Reduction Act. These investments are intended to address 
the growing backlog of deferred maintenance, forest restoration, fuels 
reduction, and wildfire management projects nationwide. By legally 
authorizing the Forest Service to temporarily employ Job Corps 
students, the CCC Enhancement Act would enable Job Corps CCCs to be an 
additional tool, outside the often drawn-out Federal procurement 
process, that the Forest Service and Regional Foresters could use to 
rapidly execute these projects.
    During my time as Regional Forester, one of our most pressing needs 
was deferred maintenance of our Forest Service compounds. We had 
buildings that were literally falling down and in need of immediate 
repairs. If I could have had the opportunity to bring in Job Corps CCC 
students with their instructors to work on some of our highest priority 
projects, at a lower cost and on a faster timeline, I would have 
counted myself lucky. In fact, the Job Corps CCCs would have become my 
go-to solution for many deferred maintenance projects and it would have 
been a win-win-win for students, local constituents, and taxpayers.
    With this in mind, another Forest Service priority the bill 
encourages tackling with Job Corps CCC service-learning is the 
significant challenge wildland firefighters face in securing housing. 
As rents and home prices have risen, many heroes in one of our nation's 
most dangerous jobs have found themselves homeless and living out of 
their vehicles. The CCC Enhancement Act proposes utilizes Job Corps CCC 
students trained in carpentry, electrical repair, plumbing, facilities 
maintenance, or other building trades to rehabilitate the Forest 
Service's own stock of housing that has fallen into disrepair. These 
barracks could be used to house wildland firefighters and ensure our 
first responders have a roof over their heads. This is not just an 
idea, Job Corps CCCs students are currently refurbishing bunk houses in 
the Gila National Forest that will be used by wildland firefighters. 
This bill would amplify those efforts.
    Finally, building off the Forest Service's success in building out 
training programs tailored towards the agency's key workforce needs, 
the bill encourages the land management agencies to identify and 
develop new career pathways for Job Corps students into federal land 
management careers. To my students, my career path was a testament that 
they could start at an entry-level job and, with hard work, move up 
through the ranks to become an organizational leader. Creating 
additional pathways for those who may not graduate college into federal 
service, particularly in rural communities, will broaden economic 
opportunity and the potential for federal officials to be more 
reflective of the constituents they serve.
    Importantly, the proposals in the CCC Enhancement Act advance 
bipartisan federal land management priorities not just in Congress but 
across administrations. The bill has received endorsements from across 
the spectrum of federal land management stakeholders including the 
Wildland Firefighter Foundation, the Grassroots Wildland Firefighters, 
the Western Fire Chiefs Association, the Forest Resources Association, 
the National Job Corps Association, the National Federation of Federal 
Employees, the Corps Network, and the Nature Conservancy.
    I know some of you on the committee have visited your Job Corps 
campuses and may have even participated in a graduation ceremony. 
Watching a graduation of Job Corps students was a game changer for me. 
Seeing firsthand disadvantaged young Americans, who arrived at our 
doors unsure of themselves and their future, embark on their careers 
with confidence and purpose as well as the skills they'd need to 
succeed, broadened my perspective on what we could achieve within our 
mission to protect America's most valuable resources.
    The mission and work of the Job Corps CCCs is more vital than ever. 
I invite each of you to visit a Job Corps CCC campus to meet the 
students and learn about the incredible work they're doing on federal 
lands. I know the National Job Corps Association would be eager to 
facilitate those visits. And I hope you'll support the passage of the 
CCC Enhancement Act. I look forward to answering any question you may 
have.

                                 ______
                                 

    Mr. Tiffany. Thank you, Ms. Goodman. Finally, last but not 
least, the Division Chief for Air and Wildland Division, San 
Bernardino County Fire Department, Mr. Jim Topoleski.
    Sir, you have 5 minutes.

STATEMENT OF JIM TOPOLESKI, DIVISION CHIEF FOR AIR AND WILDLAND 
  DIVISION, SAN BERNARDINO COUNTY FIRE DEPARTMENT, REDLANDS, 
                           CALIFORNIA

    Mr. Topoleski. Thank you, Mr. Tiffany and Committee 
members. As mentioned, my name is Jim Topoleski.
    I have approximately 40 years in the fire service, all at 
the ground level, eventually promoting all the way through the 
ranks within the fire service. During this time, I have spent 
25 years on Federal and state incident Type 1 management teams 
as an Operations Section Chief, and have traveled across the 
country in suppression of fires or disasters as we are 
responded to.
    The basis of my testimony today is my experience, 
knowledge, and skills related to technology and fire 
suppression management. I am honored and proud to be here today 
representing the San Bernardino County Fire Protection 
District, where we serve a population of approximately 2.1 
million over a land mass of almost 20,000 square miles.
    We are the largest county in the continental United States. 
San Bernardino County is a diverse geographical region with 
large coastal valleys, mountainous terrains, and expansive 
desert areas. San Bernardino County is home to one of the most 
populated and recreated national forests, with approximately 75 
percent of the county's land mass comprising Federal lands.
    San Bernardino County has a history of profound, large-
scale, destructive wildland fires and natural disasters that 
pose significant challenges for our responders. The recent York 
fire, which occurred this past July in the Mojave National 
Preserve in eastern reaches of San Bernardino County, was one 
such fire. The fire consumed 93,000 acres of critical natural 
habitat, destroyed and damaged several residences, and 
threatened electrical distribution to Southern California and 
the Las Vegas regions.
    Beyond this, the fire crews were challenged due to lack of 
communication capacity, where cellular phone data service and 
connectivity could have been improved.
    Another routine encounter that we must overcome is 
coordination of unified operations between our Federal, state, 
and local partners that operate on different technology 
platforms.
    Another major challenge is inadequate radio communication 
systems. The 93,000-acre York Fire was one such incident in not 
only having cellular and data connectivity issues throughout a 
large majority of the fire area, but placed our firefighters' 
safety both in the air and on the ground in jeopardy. Fire 
personnel had to and continue to establish workarounds to 
communicate effectively.
    This has become a standard practice to work around the 
ineffectiveness of our radio system shortfalls, and should not 
be accepted in modern communication technology. This Act will 
provide the needed test bed program and mechanism to facilitate 
fire agency interoperability across multiple agency platforms. 
This interoperability is critical to San Bernardino County; our 
Wildland Fire Response Force is comprised of the U.S. Forest 
Service and the Bureau of Land Management.
    It would also provide for the safety and welfare of our 
firefighters identified in the Dingell Act Resource Tracking, 
commonly known as DART. DART intends to track the location of 
our resources and display those resources remotely.
    For us in San Bernardino County, the absence of technology 
deployment, maintaining accountability of resources, personnel, 
and fire locations presents further challenges in keeping fires 
small. Deploying engaging assets in rugged terrain with 
accessibility challenges, low light, and smoky conditions is 
often done on a trial-and-error basis.
    Utilizing automatic vehicle location, AVL, tracking and 
personnel tracking provides for safe and rapid deployment by 
having a real-time view, which is critical to keeping fires 
small. More importantly, provides for the safety and 
accountability of our firefighting personnel.
    Finally, it will help provide real-time information to 
emergency managers, law enforcement, policy-makers, and the 
public in an easy-to-digest format that can be agnostically 
viewed across a spectrum of platforms.
    Federal, state, and local fire agencies and private 
partnerships must seek to develop and further refine these 
critical technologies to reduce the risk to our communities, 
infrastructure, and environment that our personnel face. It is 
with this that I would ask you to support H.R. 4235, and if 
there are any questions I may be able to answer, please ask.

    [The prepared statement of Mr. Topoleski follows:]
  Prepared Statement of Mr. Jim Topoleski, Division Chief for Air and 
        Wildland Division, San Bernardino County Fire Department
                              on H.R. 4235

    Good afternoon, my name is Jim Topoleski. I am the Division Chief 
of the Wildland and Aviation Division for San Bernardino County Fire. I 
am here today in response to the Committee's invitation to testify in 
support of H.R. 4235. I have nearly 40 years of experience in the fire 
service, where I have served in almost every rank, from firefighter/
paramedic to executive chief officer. As an Operations Section Chief, I 
have served on the State of California (CalFire) and Federal Type I 
Incident Management Teams for twenty-five years. I have responded 
nationwide to complex and dynamic wildfire incidents that would have 
benefited from new wildfire technologies and communication 
capabilities.
    I am honored and proud to be here today representing the San 
Bernardino County Fire Protection District, where we serve a population 
of nearly 2.1 million over a land mass of almost 20,000 square miles. I 
want to thank our Congresswoman, Young Kim, for her leadership on this 
issue. We are the largest county in the continental United States with 
a land mass larger than New Jersey, Connecticut, Delaware, and Rhode 
Island put together. San Bernardino County is a diverse geographical 
region with large coastal valleys, mountainous terrain, and expansive 
desert areas. San Bernardino County is home to one most populated and 
recreated national forests and where approximately 75% of the county's 
land mass is made up of federal lands.
    San Bernardino County has a history of profound large-scale 
destructive wildfires and natural disasters that pose significant 
challenges for our responders. For example, the York Fire this past 
July in the Mojave National Preserve and the eastern reaches of San 
Bernardino County consumed 93,000 acres of critical natural habitat, 
destroyed, and damaged several residences, and threatened electrical 
distribution networks to Southern California and Las Vegas. During the 
response fire crews lacked basic communication capabilities such 
cellular phone, data service, and even radio communication. This 
challenge put our firefighters, both in the air and on the ground, in 
jeopardy. Fire personnel had to establish work arounds to communicate 
during the response. In the era of modern communication technology this 
should not be the case. Another challenge was the coordination of 
unified operations between our federal and state partners that operate 
on different technology platforms that do not share a common operating 
picture.
    We believe that this Act will provide the needed testbed program 
and a mechanism to bring about fire agency interoperability across 
platforms. This interoperability is critical to San Bernardino County, 
where most of our wildland fire response capacity is comprised of our 
Forest Service and Bureau of Land Management firefighting partners.
    It will also provide for the safety all our firefighters and 
support ``Dingell Act Resource Tracking,'' commonly known as DART. The 
intent of DART is to track remotely the location of active resources 
and display each fire resource on real-time maps. While the technology 
to accomplish the objective of DART exists, it has yet to be 
operationally deployed in a widescale manner. Without a common 
operating picture incident commanders have a difficult time maintaining 
accountability of resources, which puts our firefighters in danger. The 
use of automatic vehicle location (AVL) tracking and personal tracking 
technologies will provide for safe and rapid deployment of our 
firefighters.
    As we learned from the York Fire federal and local government 
firefighting agencies must have access to emerging technologies to 
communicate with each other and coordinate resources. We must have a 
common operating picture to better understand the wildfire environment, 
conduct risk assessment, and maximize risk reduction. Understanding the 
fire ground (battlefield) is critical to our ability to deploy 
resources quickly and allow for more informed and safer decision 
making. Combined with the use of fire prediction spread modeling and 
live dynamic fire line mapping incident commanders will be able to 
accomplish the objective of keeping fires small. It may also be worth 
noting that the same technology would have also greatly assisted in the 
managing of resources and minimizing impacts during this past February 
snowstorm that crippled the mountain communities in San Bernardino 
County for several weeks.
    Federal, state, and local government fire agencies along with 
private partnerships must collaboratively develop and refine these 
critical technologies. In the past, development was often done in a 
vacuum where interoperability was significantly lacking. Consequently, 
underdeveloped technology was placed into operation and didn't work as 
expected. Product developers often design their products based on what 
they believe is needed rather than what our firefighters require. Thus, 
the need for public-private partnerships that mitigate the cost and 
risk through pilot programs that H.R. 4235 makes possible.
    It begins with private sector engagement where firefighters can 
evaluate and provide feedback to private sector companies through 
``Pilot studies'' and ``Beta-Testing''. My agency, for example, has 
been involved in envisioning and planning for the next generation of 
equipment and personnel tracking technology where we also consider 
product life cycle refinement loops. This limited approach, however, 
does not maximize our local resources with investments at the state and 
federal level. We need to develop these technologies and implement them 
together (at the federal, state, and local levels) to optimize those 
resources.
    We have taken the first step in sharing Automatic Vehicle Location 
(AVL) tracking systems, and communication equipment with our federal 
partners. San Bernardino County Fire Protection District at our own 
cost provided the Angeles and San Bernardino National Forests with 
access to our mapping and data system that displays AVL information of 
fire response units to create a common operating picture. This data 
sharing has been invaluable. For instance, a two weeks ago, during a 
wildland fire in an adjacent county fire managers were able to track 
and account for resources in real-time. Because of this, managers were 
able to select and deploy the closest and most appropriate resources at 
a critical time when the fire was rapidly approaching homes. While this 
example illustrates the possibilities we must do more. The ability to 
display information must be further developed and the federal 
government must look to form these public-private partnerships to 
increase effectiveness and reduce costs. Technology integration, UAVs, 
artificial intelligence will be integral in combatting all types of 
disasters. Federal government engagement and investment in this type of 
partnership with the private sector is a smart use of tax-payer 
dollars.
    In closing, San Bernardino County Fire envisions a forward-leaning 
Federal wildland fire partner that continues to develop and utilize 
cutting-edge technology. The proposed bill accomplishes this by:

     Establishing programs,

     Identifying and prioritizing emerging technologies,

     Communicating tech needs to the private industry, and

     Evaluating and sharing recommendations.

    I encourage the Committee to act favorably on H.R. 4235. Thank you 
for your time and consideration.
    I am available to answer any questions you may have.

                                 ______
                                 

    Mr. Tiffany. Thank you for your testimony.

    And I would like to ask unanimous consent for a statement 
from Representative Barr, the lead author of H.R. 5582, the 
White Oak Resilience Act, to be added to the record for today's 
hearing.

    Without objection, so ordered.

    [The prepared statement of Mr. Barr follows:]
Prepared Statement of the Hon. Andy Barr, a Representative in Congress 
                       from the State of Kentucky

    Dear Chairman Tiffany and Ranking Member Neguse, thank you for 
hosting today's hearing which includes my legislation, H.R. 5582, the 
White Oak Resilience Act. This bipartisan bill addresses the critical 
shortages faced by the white oak population, underlining its vital 
importance to the environment, the economy, and the Commonwealth of 
Kentucky's signature bourbon industry. The bill's key provisions range 
from authorizing the Department of Interior (DOI) and the Forest 
Service to actively participate in white oak restoration projects to 
harnessing private investment and establishing a white oak restoration 
fund to support white oak regeneration.

    Without intervention today, the American white oak population will 
begin to decline significantly within the next 10 to 15 years, with 
more extreme declines over the next several decades. Due to shifts in 
land management and ecological changes, older white oak trees are not 
being replaced by younger white oak trees at a pace that will support 
long-term sustainability.

    In order to restore the long-term viability of America's white oak 
forests, and maintain the economic, social and environmental benefits 
they provide, we need active, cross-boundary collaboration, 
participation and support from industry, resource professionals, 
policymakers and others. The White Oak Resilience Act is a result of 
that collaborative approach, and I am proud of the efforts we are 
pushing on this very important issue.

    Thank you to our witnesses before the Committee today for their 
expert testimony and I look forward to continuing to work with the 
Natural Resources Committee on this legislation.

                                 ______
                                 

    Mr. Tiffany. With that, Representative Peltola, would you 
like to ask any questions of our witnesses?
    Mrs. Peltola. Thank you, Chairman Tiffany. I actually was 
very interested to hear the report of Mr. Meyer on the white 
oak issue.
    And it is very encouraging that you are here offering 
partnerships, and not necessarily asking for a big-price-tag 
program. I was wondering if you could talk about some of the 
pilot programs that are maybe on the horizon if we can keep 
forward progress, and then how many years do you think it might 
be before we can see some relief for white oaks?
    Mr. Meyer. Yes, thank you for that question. I think I will 
start with the second one first.
    The data trajectory shows that we will have a pinch in the 
white oak supply in the next 20 to 50 years, and that is simply 
because you can't grow an 80-year-old tree in that time frame. 
So, if we start our active management today, we will have that 
pinch, and then we will come back out of it in the future.
    Back to the pilot projects, one of the wonderful things 
about the White Oak Initiative and all the collaborations that 
we bring to the table are that we are working in multiple 
states on different projects. We have some state partners that 
are doing demonstration areas on their land, where landowners 
can come and see what oak management looks like so that they 
know what to expect.
    We are working with the Tennessee Forestry Association, for 
example, on landowner trainings, logger trainings, and forester 
trainings because, believe it or not, you go to forestry school 
in one place, and you don't know how to manage oaks in another. 
So, we are helping with those educational pieces.
    We are partnering with the National Fish and Wildlife 
Foundation on some of those pilot projects, as well, and we are 
talking about using those pilot projects as the basis of doing 
something a little bit bigger, where perhaps the White Oak 
Initiative has some staff in different states that help 
coordinate from one state to the next. If folks are doing 
something really good in Missouri, perhaps we can talk to folks 
in Kentucky about those management practices, and start to 
learn from each other, as well.
    So, there is a lot of good work going on out there. It is 
critical that it starts to really pick up speed now so that we 
can get through that pinch and get back to our healthy white 
oak forests.
    Mr. Tiffany. The gentlelady yields back. I have so many 
questions and so little time.
    Ms. Goodman, I have had a chance a couple of times to go to 
the Blackwell Job Corps in Forest County in far northern 
Wisconsin, and some of the----
    Ms. Goodman. A great center.
    Mr. Tiffany. Yes, it really is, and I really enjoyed going 
there, and with some of the youth that, some of them troubled, 
but were getting a skill and were getting a shot at having a 
good life. So, we really appreciate the work that you did 
there.
    Commissioner McFall, do you have Good Neighbor Authority 
available to you in Colorado?
    Mr. McFall. Yes, sir, we do.
    Mr. Tiffany. Is the state using it?
    Mr. McFall. In places, yes. In our county, no. But in other 
places in the state, yes, sir.
    Mr. Tiffany. Would you like to see it expanded?
    Mr. McFall. Yes, sir.
    Mr. Tiffany. How do we get mills to come back? You heard me 
previously, 1,900 mills across the West closed over the last 23 
years. Can some of those mills come back?
    Mr. McFall. Thank you for that question. I believe they 
can. They just have to have the ability to make it profitable 
for them to come back, whether it is a stewardship or any other 
kind of contract. Stewardship is, obviously, better because 
they are helping with the infrastructure.
    But I think that right now the reason, it is so far to haul 
timber if they do pull it out of there, there are no mills 
anywhere close. The value of wood is not so good in these 
places because it stood dead so long, whether it be beetle kill 
or by fire kill. So, I think prompt action after a fire makes a 
difference. Prompt action after beetle kill, Colorado is just 
terrible with beetle kill forests, and they are just falling 
over.
    So, I think they can come back, but it has to be done 
correctly and with some incentives for those guys to make it 
profitable for them to move in there.
    Mr. Tiffany. And would you also say that some certainty 
would be important, that this isn't going to be just a 
turnaround in forest management for a couple of years, that it 
is going to take a sustained change in that forest management, 
no different than what you see in this chart where we went in 
the wrong direction?
    [Chart.]
    Mr. McFall. I absolutely do, and I think 10 years is not 
long enough. It probably has to be more like 20 years. We are 
30 or 40 years behind, so it is going to take a while to 
recoup.
    Mr. Tiffany. Mr. Sherren, I have been introduced to so much 
technology over the last couple of years. Being a Midwesterner, 
we don't have the fire problem, occasionally we do, but nothing 
like the West. But being introduced to what is happening out in 
the West, it really seems like the technology is there to be 
able to almost eliminate the need or that wildfires happen. Is 
that accurate?
    Mr. Sherren. There are certainly a lot of technologies. 
They are small, but scaling. And with right incentives for 
markets for biochar, then people will take the risk to build 
larger and larger facilities to process the feedstock that will 
come from the forest. So, there is still a long way to go.
    Mr. Tiffany. Mr. Topoleski, same question. It really seems 
to me like the technology has improved so much in just some of 
the stuff that I have seen come on the marketplace in the last 
decade, and including the last couple of years that it seems 
like we should be able to get control of many more of these 
fires, first of all, before they become massive wildfires. Do 
you agree with that?
    Mr. Topoleski. It is a yes-and-no answer from me on that. 
Yes, we should be able to do more in suppression as the 
technology gets us there, from early detection to initial 
attack engagement.
    In regards to being able to treat the lands, the vast 
majority of the lands, though I don't represent the USDA or the 
DOI, those lands are highly inaccessible, and it is still going 
to require significant staff workforce to pull that material 
down to an area where it can be either chipped, ground, put 
into a biochar machine, or pile burned. It does still require a 
significant staffing equation.
    Mr. Tiffany. Mr. Meyer, you talked about all the various 
entities that are involved with the White Oak Initiative. It 
scares the hell out of me when you mention the Federal 
Government, because they are pre-eminent, they oftentimes call 
the tune. Why should I not be fearful of that? Why should I 
vote for this when I have such great fear when the Federal 
Government gets involved with something like this, that they 
are actually going to make things better?
    Mr. Meyer. Thank you for that question, Chairman.
    First of all, I will mention that we have several Forest 
Service folks who hang out with us around our board meetings, 
and they are doing nothing but being supportive of us, helping 
us find our way forward, helping us build those partnerships 
that are going to help us meet our mission better. But at the 
end of the day, across much of the white oak range, 
landownership is in the hands of private landowners.
    So, part of this bill is actually getting to the nitty 
gritty of supporting those landowners and the work that they 
need to do on their lands. And that is why I think that having 
this group support of the bill will ensure that white oak 
continues to thrive well into the future.
    Mr. Tiffany. I appreciate the comment that you made in your 
testimony when you talked about less active management. You 
listed a number of things that have happened here that are 
causing the concern as we look into the future, and less active 
management of our forests was one of them.
    It seems like, Mr. Chairman, that there is a recurring 
theme that goes through this Committee constantly in regards to 
less management leading to poorer outcomes. Mr. Chairman, would 
you like 5 minutes for questioning?
    Mr. Westerman. I could actually take 10, but I will try to 
stick to that.
    Mr. Tiffany. Who am I to argue?
    Mr. Westerman. So many good, good topics to talk about 
today. And I will start with Ms. Goodman.
    I had a Forest Service Job Corps Center close in my 
district not too long after I got into Congress. I still have a 
Forest Service Job Corps center in my district, as well. But I 
did a deep dive into the reason for the closure, and what I 
found was that DOL was the one that evaluated the performance 
of the job centers, and the data that they used seemed to be 
skewed very unfavorably towards the Forest Service Job Corps. 
And I would just like to ask you if you think the evaluation of 
Forest Service Job Corps Centers is done impartially and fairly 
by the Department of Labor.
    Ms. Goodman. Thank you for that question, Chairman. I think 
that it is hard to evaluate the differences between a contract 
center and a CCC center. I think the CCC centers provide 
additional support to the national forest and to rural 
communities that sometimes doesn't happen in the more urban 
areas where a lot of our contract centers are.
    So, I think sometimes it is hard to evaluate equally, so I 
would like to see a few changes. And they have been working on 
some of those changes.
    Mr. Westerman. Do you think it would be beneficial to get 
the Forest Service Job Corps out of the Department of Labor?
    Ms. Goodman. I would have to defer that question.
    Mr. Westerman. Well, I think it would be, but we will work 
on that, save that for another day.
    Talk about white oaks a little bit, Mr. Meyer. White oaks 
are best known for their use in barrels, especially for wine 
and spirits and bourbon, but they are also a premier hardwood 
tree species that is vital to ecosystem health in many forests. 
They have a wide range throughout the United States. Can you 
talk about the important role that white oaks play outside of 
the market for barrels, for cooperage?
    Mr. Meyer. Thank you, Chairman Westerman, for that 
question. Your answer to the questions that don't get asked is 
the trees are the answer. I would say that at least 70 percent 
of the time white oak is the answer, right?
    From a forest products perspective, white oak is widely 
used, but this is also the tree out in nature that creates the 
magic with its broad canopies. It helps to clean our air with 
its deep roots. It helps to clean our water. The wildlife 
habitat, food, shelter in all of the different stages of its 
growth provide those ecosystem benefits that only a white oak 
can provide. Other trees can provide one or two of those 
things, but the white oak is the shining example of the tree 
that can do it all.
    Mr. Westerman. Right, and we have, in effect, lost the 
chestnut due to the chestnut blight. And I think when you read 
history about the benefits that chestnuts provided, the amount 
of mass crop that came from chestnuts, it is hard for us to 
even imagine that today. It would be a real shame to have the 
same fate happen for white oaks.
    With my remaining time, I will move on to biochar. Mr. 
Sherren, we know there is a lot of promise for biochar. We know 
biochar has been around for a long time. But the technology, 
really, is kind of in the early stages of commercialization 
when you talk about large-scale biochar production.
    Mr. Tiffany mentioned when we were in the South Pacific, we 
were in, was it Micronesia or Palau? Palau. And there was a 
USDA employee there making biochar in a 55-gallon drum. But we 
are talking about making it on a much larger scale. Can you 
share some of the challenges that you see as biochar continues 
to develop, and how the BIOCHAR Act can address some of those 
issues?
    Mr. Sherren. Well, when you start to think about the 
production of biochar, the systems are, in some way, basic and 
been around a while. And you can scale those, right? It is the 
issue of somebody being willing to spend the money to put a 
large system in, because the market for the char is uncertain 
at this point.
    So, I feel like the BIOCHAR Act will help us find markets 
for biochar and give some certainty there that people will take 
the risk to spend the money, because we already know the 
product is great, right? It is just a matter of not being risk-
averse to take the chance.
    Mr. Westerman. And as somebody who has spent time in 
forestry and forest products, you understand the need for more 
markets and the challenges for those markets. I think your 
testimony talked about wastewater treatment. Can you talk about 
some of the other potential markets for biochar, how they could 
be beneficial, and how biochar itself can be beneficial to 
forest management and forest products companies?
    Mr. Sherren. Yes. Can you say the first part of the 
question again. I was thinking about the second part.
    Mr. Westerman. Yes, how different potential markets for 
biochar----
    Mr. Sherren. Right, right, developing, right? So, we know, 
as a soil amendment, that is kind of a huge benefit there.
    And stormwater management is absolutely on the rise. People 
are understanding more the benefit. The Chesapeake Bay 
Consortium's Science Technology Advisory Committee just spent 2 
days in May talking about that, because they have been thinking 
about it for 3 years, and they need to understand better how to 
give credit for stormwater management. But then emerging 
things, crazy things like capping orphan wells.
    I also know that the FDA is studying the allowance of the 
use of biochar as a feed amendment here in the United States 
that has been going on for decades in Europe and Asia.
    So, I think those are some really big opportunities to find 
markets for biochar.
    Mr. Westerman. And even the market for a quantifiable and 
measurable carbon sequestration product, I think there are big 
markets for that. There is a lot of money to invest in, but 
there is not a measurable, large-scale product out there for 
carbon sequestration.
    And then the benefits of a product like biochar to forest 
health, can you describe that a little bit?
    Mr. Sherren. Say the first part again.
    Mr. Westerman. A product like biochar that comes from 
either mill residuals or from low-value material that needs to 
be thinned out of the forest, how can that benefit forest 
products in the long run and the forest health?
    Mr. Sherren. Oh my. So, in the Luke Mill area, we were 
buying 1.5 million tons of fiber a year. When the mill closed, 
that market went away. There was no home for low-grade material 
or forest residuals. That is all just stagnant in the forest 
right now. So, if there is a market, that material will find 
it.
    Mr. Westerman. We are over time, Mr. Chairman. I appreciate 
your indulgence and yield back.
    Mr. Tiffany. The gentleman yields back.
    The Natural Resources Committee went to the South Pacific 
this past year to have a hearing in Guam. We have jurisdiction 
over the islands there. And the Chairman, we were in Guam, we 
were in Palau, we were in the Marshall Islands. The thing he 
was most excited about was the biochar demonstration project in 
Palau.
    [Laughter.]
    Mr. Tiffany. Well, I want to thank all of you for your 
testimony, and we appreciate it very much.
    The members of the Subcommittee may have some additional 
questions for our witnesses today, and we will ask that they 
respond to these in writing. Under Committee Rule 3, members of 
the Subcommittee must submit questions to the Subcommittee 
Clerk by 5 p.m. on Friday, November 17, 2023. The hearing 
record will be held open for 10 business days for those 
responses.
    If there is no further business, without objection, the 
Subcommittee on Federal Lands stands adjourned.

    [Whereupon, at 4:20 p.m., the Subcommittee was adjourned.]

            [ADDITIONAL MATERIALS SUBMITTED FOR THE RECORD]

                        Statement for the Record
                    U.S. Department of the Interior
                       Bureau of Land Management
        H.R. 5665, Promoting Accessibility on Federal Lands Act

    H.R. 5665, the Promoting Accessibility on Federal Lands Act, 
directs the Secretary of the Interior and the Secretary of Agriculture 
to carry out a comprehensive assessment of trails, campsites, boat 
docks, and outdoor recreation facilities on Bureau of Land Management 
(BLM) and U.S. Forest Service lands to determine their accessibility 
for individuals with disabilities. The bill requires the Secretaries to 
conduct the assessment and publish it online within 180 days of the 
date on which appropriations are first made available for the effort. 
The bill also allows the Secretaries to use previous assessments as 
part of the comprehensive process.
Analysis
    The Biden Administration is committed to achieving a more 
inclusive, accessible, and equitable country for people with 
disabilities. The BLM is also dedicated to ensuring that all Americans 
have an equitable opportunity to access their public lands by providing 
access to facilities, programs, services, and activities for people 
with disabilities. As part of its multiple-use mission, the BLM 
conducts systematic accessibility evaluations of developed recreation 
sites and creates plans for corrective actions on assessed sites. The 
BLM also provides accessibility training and education for field staff 
and managers, so they are prepared to help meet the needs of visitors 
with disabilities.
    Recently, the BLM launched a new accessibility map for facilities 
across multiple states on its website as part of Disability Awareness 
Month. This website is the first phase of an effort that the BLM plans 
to build upon in future stages as part of a larger project aimed at 
enhancing access and experiences for people with disabilities. In 
initiating the project, the BLM collaborated with accessibility 
specialists from other Department of the Interior bureaus, including 
the National Park Service and the Bureau of Reclamation. The team also 
distributed a survey to colleagues in the field to evaluate existing 
data about accessible features and services at BLM facilities and 
sites.
    These efforts and this bill also advance the goals embodied by 
President Biden's Executive Order 14096, Revitalizing Our Nation's 
Commitment to Environmental Justice for All, signed in April, including 
ensuring that all people--regardless of race, background, income, 
ability, Tribal affiliation, or zip code--can benefit from the vital 
safeguards enshrined in our nation's foundational environmental laws, 
including better access to green space.
    The BLM supports the goals of H.R. 5665 and looks forward to 
working with the Sponsor on some technical aspects of the bill, 
including the timeframe and resources needed for implementation, and 
the scope of the sites to be assessed under the measure.

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