[House Hearing, 118 Congress]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]


  .                   VICTIMS OF VIOLENT CRIME IN THE
                          DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA

=======================================================================

                                HEARING

                               BEFORE THE

                   SUBCOMMITTEE ON CRIME AND FEDERAL 
                            GOVERNMENT SURVEILLANCE

                                 OF THE

                       COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY

                     U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

                    ONE HUNDRED EIGHTEENTH CONGRESS

                             FIRST SESSION

                               __________

                       THURSDAY, OCTOBER 12, 2023

                               __________

                           Serial No. 118-48

                               __________

         Printed for the use of the Committee on the Judiciary
         
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               Available via: http://judiciary.house.gov
               
                               __________

                                
                    U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE                    
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-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------     
               
                       COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY

                        JIM JORDAN, Ohio, Chair

DARRELL ISSA, California             JERROLD NADLER, New York, Ranking 
KEN BUCK, Colorado                       Member
MATT GAETZ, Florida                  ZOE LOFGREN, California
MIKE JOHNSON, Louisiana              SHEILA JACKSON LEE, Texas
ANDY BIGGS, Arizona                  STEVE COHEN, Tennessee
TOM McCLINTOCK, California           HENRY C. ``HANK'' JOHNSON, Jr., 
TOM TIFFANY, Wisconsin                   Georgia
THOMAS MASSIE, Kentucky              ADAM SCHIFF, California
CHIP ROY, Texas                      ERIC SWALWELL, California
DAN BISHOP, North Carolina           TED LIEU, California
VICTORIA SPARTZ, Indiana             PRAMILA JAYAPAL, Washington
SCOTT FITZGERALD, Wisconsin          J. LUIS CORREA, California
CLIFF BENTZ, Oregon                  MARY GAY SCANLON, Pennsylvania
BEN CLINE, Virginia                  JOE NEGUSE, Colorado
LANCE GOODEN, Texas                  LUCY McBATH, Georgia
JEFF VAN DREW, New Jersey            MADELEINE DEAN, Pennsylvania
TROY NEHLS, Texas                    VERONICA ESCOBAR, Texas
BARRY MOORE, Alabama                 DEBORAH ROSS, North Carolina
KEVIN KILEY, California              CORI BUSH, Missouri
HARRIET HAGEMAN, Wyoming             GLENN IVEY, Maryland
NATHANIEL MORAN, Texas               BECCA BALINT, Vermont
LAUREL LEE, Florida
WESLEY HUNT, Texas
RUSSELL FRY, South Carolina
                                 ------                                

                   SUBCOMMITTEE ON CRIME AND FEDERAL
                        GOVERNMENT SURVEILLANCE

                       ANDY BIGGS, Arizona, Chair

MATT GAETZ, Florida                  SHEILA JACKSON LEE, Texas, Ranking 
TOM TIFFANY, Wisconsin                   Member
TROY NEHLS, Texas                    LUCY McBATH, Georgia
BARRY MOORE, Alabama                 MADELEINE DEAN, Pennsylvania
KEVIN KILEY, California              CORI BUSH, Missouri
LAUREL LEE, Florida                  STEVE COHEN, Tennessee
RUSSELL FRY, South Carolina          HENRY C. ``HANK'' JOHNSON, Jr., 
                                         Georgia

               CHRISTOPHER HIXON, Majority Staff Director
          AMY RUTKIN, Minority Staff Director & Chief of Staff
                            
                            
                            C O N T E N T S

                              ----------                              

                       Thursday, October 12, 2023

                                                                   Page

                           OPENING STATEMENTS

The Honorable Andy Biggs, Chair of the Subcommittee on Crime and 
  Federal Government Surveillance from the State of Arizona......     1
The Honorable Sheila Jackson Lee, Ranking Member of the 
  Subcommittee on Crime and Federal Government Surveillance from 
  the State of Texas.............................................     3
The Honorable Jim Jordan, Chair of the Committee on the Judiciary 
  from the State of Ohio.........................................     6
The Honorable Jerrold Nadler, Ranking Member of the Committee on 
  the Judiciary from the State of New York.......................     6

                               WITNESSES

Charles ``Cully'' Stimson, Deputy Director, Edwin Meese III 
  Center, The Heritage Foundation
  Oral Testimony.................................................    10
  Prepared Testimony.............................................    12
Gregg Pemberton, Chair, Detective Grade 1, D.C. Police Union
  Oral Testimony.................................................    32
  Prepared Testimony.............................................    34
Lindsey Appiah, Deputy Mayor, Public Safety and Justice, 
  Washington, DC
  Oral Testimony.................................................    37
  Prepared Testimony.............................................    39
Thomas Abt, Chair, Violent Crime Working Group; Senior Fellow, 
  Council on Criminal Justice
  Oral Testimony.................................................    47
  Prepared Testimony.............................................    49
Mitchell Sobolevsky, Victim of Crime, Washington, DC
  Oral Testimony.................................................    52
  Prepared Testimony.............................................    54
Gaynor Jablonski, Owner, Valor Brewpub, Washington, DC
  Oral Testimony.................................................    56
  Prepared Testimony.............................................    58
Myisha Richards, Firefighter/Paramedic, Washington, DC
  Oral Testimony.................................................    59
  Prepared Testimony.............................................    61

          LETTERS, STATEMENTS, ETC. SUBMITTED FOR THE HEARING

All materials submitted for the record by the Subcommittee on 
  Crime and Federal Government Surveillance are listed below.....    81

Materials submitted by the Honorable Andy Biggs, Chair of the 
  Subcommittee on Crime and Federal Government Surveillance from 
  the State of Arizona, for the record
    A report entitled, ``The D.C. City Council Failed at Criminal 
        Justice Reform--Congress Must Fix It,'' Jul. 12, 2023, 
        The Heritage Foundation
    A report entitled, ``The Blue City Murder Problem,'' Nov. 4, 
        2022, The Heritage Foundation
Materials submitted by the Honorable Sheila Jackson Lee, Ranking 
  Member of the Subcommittee on Crime and Federal Government 
  Surveillance from the State of Texas, for the record
    An article entitled, ``90 drug and gun offenders released 
        after police misconduct probe,'' Mar. 14, 2023, WUSA9
    A copy of 18 U.S.C. 922(g), No Mandatory Minimum Penalties
    Statement by the Honorable Sheila Jackson Lee, Ranking Member 
        of the Subcommittee on Crime and Federal Government 
        Surveillance from the State of Texas
    A copy of HR 7100, 116th Congress, 2nd Session, Jun. 4, 2020

                                APPENDIX

Materials submitted by the Honorable Sheila Jackson Lee, Ranking 
  Member of the Subcommittee on Crime and Federal Government 
  Surveillance from the State of Texas, for the record
    An article entitled, ``DC Invests More Policing Than Any 
        Other Large City,'' Third Way
    A copy of the Code of the District of Columbia, 22-4503, 
        entitled, ``Unlawful possession of firearm,'' Council of 
        the District of Columbia
    A copy of 18 U.S.C. 922, Part I, Chapter 44, entitled, 
        ``Unlawful acts''
    A copy of 18 U.S.C. 924, Penalties

 
                    VICTIMS OF VIOLENT CRIME IN THE.
                          DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA

                              ----------                              


                       Thursday, October 12, 2023

                        House of Representatives

       Subcommittee on Crime and Federal Government Surveillance

                       Committee on the Judiciary

                             Washington, DC

    The Subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 10:08 a.m., in 
Room 2141, Rayburn House Office Building, the Hon. Andy Biggs 
[Chair of the Subcommittee] presiding.
    Members present: Representatives Biggs, Jordan, Gaetz, 
Tiffany, Kiley, Lee, Jackson Lee, Nadler, McBath, Dean, and 
Johnson.
    Also present: Representative Ivey and Delegate Norton.
    Mr. Biggs. [Presiding.] Good morning.
    The Judiciary Committee's Subcommittee on Crime is called 
to order. We thank all of you for being here.
    We will begin with the Pledge of Allegiance offered by the 
gentleman from California, Mr. Kiley.
    [Pledge of Allegiance.]
    Thank you, Mr. Kiley, and thank each of you.
    Without objection, the Chair is authorized to declare a 
recess at any time.
    We welcome everyone to today's hearing on Victims of 
Violent Crime in the District of Columbia.
    Without objection, the gentlelady from the District of 
Columbia, Ms. Norton, will be able to participate in today's 
hearing to question witnesses if a member yields their time for 
that purpose. We are grateful to have Ms. Norton visiting with 
us today. Thank you.
    I now recognize myself for an opening statement.
    We welcome, again, each of you to our hearing today in the 
Nation's Capital. We especially thank all our witnesses. We are 
grateful to have you here.
    The crime we are witnessing just a few blocks from this 
building is unprecedented. No section of the city can be 
considered safe anymore, and the man who is in charge of 
prosecuting the criminals has abandoned his responsibilities. 
That is Matthew Graves, U.S. Attorney for the District of 
Columbia, who was appointed by President Joe Biden. He is 
failing to prosecute criminals.
    His office has consistently declined to prosecute criminals 
in the District. In 2021, the U.S. Attorney's Office for the 
District of Columbia opted against prosecuting 67 percent of 
arrests presented in the D.C. Superior Court.
    To provide context, out of the 15,315 arrests made in D.C., 
10,261 did not lead to prosecution. In comparison, in 2015, the 
U.S. AODC only declined to prosecute 35 percent of cases, which 
suggests that the office under Graves' leadership is failing to 
prosecute crimes and protect the public.
    In just a few short years, the city went from having 65 
percent of cases prosecuted to having 65 percent of cases 
dropped--a complete reversal that has had a catastrophic impact 
on public safety. Mr. Graves has indicated that the type of 
cases he is refusing to prosecute are primarily illegal gun 
possession and illegal drug possession cases.
    Without fail, we can anticipate that my Democratic 
colleagues will call for more gun control, but President 
Biden's handpicked prosecutor for Washington, DC, refuses to 
enforce gun laws already on the books.
    Violent crime rates in Washington, DC, have seen a 
significant spike this year. Just last week, the District 
surpassed 200 homicides--the quickest the District has hit this 
mark at this point in the year this century.
    As of October 3, 2023, violent crime is up 38 percent from 
the same time last year. For example, as of October 4, 2023, 
MPD data shows 750 reported carjackings, of which an alarming 
75 percent involved weapons. However, there have only been 113 
arrests for carjackings this year--with juveniles responsible 
for an astonishing 65 percent of those carjackings.
    Additionally, as of October 4th, year-to-date statistics 
for 2023 reveal 216 homicides, 123 cases of sexual abuse, 2,656 
robberies, and 1,110 assaults involving dangerous weapons. As 
of October 4, 2023, the District has witnessed 4,105 violent 
crimes and 21,980 property crimes.
    The criminals know they will not be prosecuted by U.S. 
Attorney Matthew Graves, but Matthew Graves is not the only one 
soft on criminals in Washington, DC. City leadership slashed 
the Metropolitan Police Department budget by, roughly, $15 
million in 2021, and the Washington, DC, City Council has 
passed laws that embolden criminals and hamstring the police.
    In November 2022, the D.C. City Council voted unanimously 
on a bill to overhaul the Criminal Code, which reduced the 
maximum sentence for almost all violent crimes and eliminated 
mandatory minimums for all crimes, except first degree murder. 
That proposal was vetoed by the mayor, which was later 
unanimously overridden. The bill was so radical that bipartisan 
majorities in both the House and Senate passed a resolution to 
prohibit it from becoming law and President Biden signed it.
    In the wake of the May 2020 of George Floyd, the District 
City Council passed police reform legislation that radically 
changed policing in the District. Unfortunately, city 
leadership has not always supported law enforcement, and that 
shows up in recruiting, and failure to retain officers who they 
have spent money training have simply been let go.
    Today, we will hear from a former Assistant U.S. Attorney, 
an MPD detective, and victims of crime about ways to make this 
city safe again.
    At this time, I have two articles that I'm going to enter 
into the record--one called ``The D.C. City Council Failed at 
Criminal Justice Reform--Congress Must Fix It,'' and another 
called ``The Blue City Murder Problem.'' Those will be admitted 
to the record without objection. Seeing none.
    Now, I am going to show a short video.
    [Video played.]
    I thank again the witnesses for being here. I look forward 
to your testimony. We appreciate your being here, and all in 
the audience and the Members of the Committee being here.
    I yield and now recognize the gentlelady from Texas, the 
Ranking Member, Ms. Jackson Lee.
    Ms. Jackson Lee. Mr. Chair, thank you so much for your 
courtesies.
    Thank you to my colleagues that are here, Ranking Member 
Nadler, Congresswoman McBath, and Congresswoman Dean. We are 
pleased that the District of Columbia Representative, 
Congresswoman Eleanor Holmes Norton, is present today to make 
many efforts to hear her voice.
    Let me be very clear. We are in the midst of disarray. We 
have no Speaker. For those of you who watch Democrats come in, 
we are in a very serious caucus meeting, which is our 
responsibility. So, please forgive us for any short delay that 
you may have seen. It is no offense intended.
    The first thing I want to say is to those who have been 
victims of crime--that there is no greater responsibility for 
those of us in Congress and those of us in local government, 
those of us who will lead cities and those of us who lead 
cities, to realize that our people, the people there, are our 
greatest responsibilities.
    I want to be a problem solver and a crime fighter. So, 
having lived here even before I was a Member of Congress, and 
enjoyed the blessings of being a resident of the District of 
Columbia or working in the District of Columbia, I can assure 
you I have a great affection for this city--separate and apart 
from its historic responsibility or role as the Capital of the 
United States, which I tell all my elementary school children 
about how important Washington is.
    I do want to say that we need to be serious about what has 
happened to you, as a victim, and my colleagues seem to want to 
exaggerate not your injury and the fear, but the idea that we 
were also attacked on January 6, 2021, when there were no 
voices from my friends on the other side of the aisle about the 
violence that came to this city and no interest in voting for 
the commission that we were trying to put forward.
    So, I want to make sure that, when this hearing gets 
through, that we have solutions for you, and that we either 
work with Federal funds, which I know that your Member is 
working on. As I do so, let me be very clear: This is a 
challenging moment. We embrace our victims. We want them to be, 
in essence, never victims again, but protected in the status 
that they are in.
    In the record, I must place the 10 cities that employed the 
most police officers per capita in 2022: Washington, DC, 542.91 
per 100,000. It doesn't mean, residents, it doesn't mean not 
more are needed. It means we need to work together. The 10 
cities that spent the most on policing per resident in 2022: 
Washington, DC, No. 1; $751.62 per person.
    So, we need to find a way to get to the core of the 
violence, the violent criminals off the street. This uptick in 
crime is concerning, not only for the residents who call this 
city home, especially in the areas of the city that bear the 
brunt of the most violence, but also for the millions of 
visitors who come to experience its rich history, culture, its 
warmth, and important political institutions.
    That is why I hope we will have a genuine discussion today 
that focuses on solutions. We can't win by finger-pointing. We 
are in the midst of finger-pointing now, and we have no 
Speaker.
    It is essential that Congress prioritize the safety and 
security of those who live, work, and visit the District by 
ensuring that the Federal government, we must do our part. I am 
a big believer in Federal resources matching local resources 
for your safety.
    The District of Columbia is unique in many ways, and one of 
them is the complex relationship it shares with the Federal 
government. While its status as the Nation's Capital brings 
many benefits, it also brings many challenges. We are in here 
every day as guests, but we also create an extra financial 
burden.
    In combating violent crime, the District of Columbia has 
taken a multifaceted approach that includes passing emergency 
legislation, supported by the mayor, that filled in gaps in 
pretrial detention procedures for violent criminals. We are 
holding, you are holding more of these criminals now; 
bolstering law enforcement programs and recruitment; and 
implementing community policing initiatives and instituting a 
juvenile curfew in certain hotspots.
    We know that we have to work with juveniles. We know they 
are in the midst of juveniles going forward into the 20s, are 
those who are in the mix. Those in their late 20s are the ones 
with most of the gun violent incidences. We understand that.
    So, enhancing the use of technology, such as CCTV cameras, 
to combat crime. Additionally, the District has focused on 
crime prevention strategies, such as increased investment in 
youth programs, education, and job opportunities for at-risk 
individuals.
    It doesn't help you say that there is a crime wave across 
America. Every city has to take responsibility, and I realize 
that, because people are in pain.
    The District's response to any type of crime, whether 
violent or not, can be complicated by overlapping jurisdictions 
and responsibilities between local and Federal law enforcement. 
I want to find a smoother way of finding that common ground 
that they can work together, along with your distinguished 
Member of Congress.
    We know that the Federal government's presence in the 
District, while providing unique opportunities for 
collaboration, also creates challenges. We want to, for 
instance, despite the obvious needs for agencies from both 
governments to work together and share information vital to 
public safety, like the identity of an individual suspected of 
committing multiple robberies, communication between the two 
agencies or entities can be stymied by legal red tape. Let's 
stop that. That is why it is crucial for Congress to ensure 
coordination and communication among the multiple agencies that 
possess jurisdiction over different areas of the criminal 
justice system.
    I hope our witnesses today will offer solutions, establish 
greater coordination and cooperation between the local and 
Federal law enforcement. We must also consider the resources 
required to combat violent crime. Getting violent criminals off 
the street is what we all should, collectively, want to do.
    Wraparound services and helping those who can get out of 
the criminal mindset, get them away from this, and you won't 
see them again. Let's not eliminate that opportunity. Let's 
deal with mental health services that may also be engaged.
    Both the local and Federal governments must continue to 
allocate sufficient funding and investment in resources for law 
enforcement agencies, crime prevention programs, community 
initiatives, and as they perceive in the local government, the 
need for additional law enforcement officers and public safety. 
Helping to strengthen these vital institutions will support the 
District's ability to address the underlying causes of violent 
crime.
    I spoke with the U.S. Attorney for the District of 
Columbia, Matthew Graves, who lives in the District, loves this 
city, and it will have the same impact on him as any other 
person that may be subject to the acts of a violent criminal. 
He is using every tool that he has available to address violent 
crime, including carjackings, robberies, as well as the flow of 
illegal guns in the city from States, from Virginia and 
Georgia.
    I did not hold up on the inquisition that I gave of him 
yesterday in a very lengthy conversation. He assured me that 
they are at a point where 90 percent of the individuals 
arrested for the most serious violent crimes, which are 
homicide, carjacking, rape, and assault with intent to kill, 
are being prosecuted.
    He also noted that a significant decrease in number of 
cases that his office chooses not to prosecute after inheriting 
a declined unit--excuse me--a declined rate of 70 percent. He 
is working to get rid of that number and to prosecute cases.
    So, there is a stitching-together and work, but we must do 
a lot to help move forward the crime lab, get it on its feet, 
and get it where it is moving cases forward. We can be helpful 
in that, and I hope the Congresswoman will allow us to be 
helpful or to instruct us how best to do that.
    As Democrats continue to offer solution after solution to 
make all American communities safer to work, it is important 
that we rid the streets of illegal firearms--let's not make 
light of that--hold offenders accountable; address the root 
causes of violence, such as poverty and housing and civility 
and addiction. Republicans have yet to join us on all these 
issues. We can't just point the finger; we have got to work on 
all of them.
    The surge of violent crime in the District is a problem. I 
want to hug every victim, but I would like to say I don't want 
you to be a victim. I don't want victims in Houston, Texas. I 
want to make sure that we get to this point, that we live in 
safely in the Nation and in our communities.
    So, we can establish stronger partnerships, sharing 
information, and as well, making sure that we are together as 
not only Washingtonians, that we are now, but as Americans.
    Mr. Chair, I'm yielding a second to Congresswoman Eleanor 
Holmes Norton.
    I'm yielding you a moment just to comment on the record.
    You are going to yield to her?
    Mr. Biggs. Yes.
    Ms. Jackson Lee. All right.
    Mr. Biggs. Yes, she will be yielded time.
    Ms. Jackson Lee. She will be yielded.
    Mr. Biggs. Yes.
    Ms. Jackson Lee. I just wanted to make sure. Thank you so 
very much. Thank you, Chair and Ranking Member Nadler.
    By establishing this ability to work together, my goal here 
is to sit here and listen to you with respect, and my mind will 
be calculating how we continue to work with you, your mayor, 
our law enforcement, your Washingtonians, your excellent Member 
of Congress, and the Federal government, to do what we are 
supposed to do, which is to ensure the national safety of the 
American people.
    With that, I yield.
    Mr. Biggs. I thank the gentlelady.
    Without objection, the gentleman from Maryland, Mr. Ivey, 
will be able to participant in today's hearing and to question 
witnesses if a Member yields him time for that purpose.
    The Chair now recognizes the Chair of the Full Committee, 
Mr. Jordan, for his opening statement.
    Chair Jordan. I thank the Chair.
    Crime is out of control, and everybody knows it. More 
importantly, everybody knows why. When you defund the police, 
and you have prosecutors who go soft on crime, you get more 
crime. This doesn't take a genius to figure this out. We have 
done field hearings in New York, field hearings in Chicago. 
Everybody tells us the same thing. Frankly, when you disparage 
the good men and women who put on the uniform, risk their life 
every day in our streets, you also get a shortage of police 
officers and more crime.
    Never forget: Bad guys aren't stupid; they are just bad. If 
they know there are less police on the street to stop them and 
they are not going to get prosecuted if they do get caught, 
they do bad things. That is what we have all got to understand. 
This is as basic as it gets.
    So, I want to thank our witnesses for being here. I thank 
the Chair for this hearing.
    We have heard this in New York and Chicago, and we are 
going to other cities. We have to change this. We have to begin 
to say to our law enforcement, ``Thank you. Thank you for doing 
a tough job.'' That is what is at stake here.
    Mr. Chair, I thank you again for this hearing and our 
witnesses for being here today. I yield back.
    Mr. Biggs. I think the gentleman, Mr. Chair, for yield 
back.
    I now recognize the Ranking Member of the Full Committee, 
Mr. Nadler, for his opening statement.
    Mr. Nadler. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
    Mr. Chair, no one should be afraid in their own community. 
No one should be afraid to walk to school, to go to their 
neighborhood park, or to drive home to their families after a 
long day at work.
    We all share a commitment to protecting our communities, 
and I want to thank our impacted witnesses for appearing today 
and for sharing their stories.
    The COVID-19 pandemic destabilized many communities 
nationwide, exacerbating root causes of violent crime, like 
poverty and joblessness. It left many of our young people 
without the day structure and mentors to help them succeed.
    While some cities have largely recovered from the effects 
of the pandemic, Washington, DC, still has more work to do to 
improve public safety. Make no mistake, our Republican 
colleagues have not called this hearing to help D.C. solve 
problems.
    They were not looking to solve problems when they called a 
hearing on victims of violent crime in Manhattan just two weeks 
after its District Attorney charged President Trump with 
multiple felonies. They were not looking to solve problems when 
they held a roundtable in Chicago mere days before a potential 
government shutdown.
    So, too, today, as Republicans struggle to elect a new 
Speaker, sending the House spiraling into new depths of chaos 
and dysfunction. This hearing is yet another attempt to 
distract and mislead the American people. We won't fall for it.
    The Republican majority offers no policy solutions that 
would actually protect residents of Washington, DC, or other 
big cities. Instead, they seek only to flood these cities with 
more guns, while they work against meaningful legislation to 
invest in our communities and support proven public safety 
measures.
    Remember that, under Democratic control, the House passed 
the VICTIM Act, legislation that would provide $100 million a 
year to law enforcement to help solve homicides, but 178 
Republicans voted against it. That is 178 Republican Members 
who opposed the bill to help prosecute murderers.
    Fifty-five Republicans opposed the Invest to Protect Act, a 
bill that would have authorized $300 million in grants for law 
enforcement agencies with fewer than 125 officers.
    Now that Republicans are in the majority, not only have we 
not taken any of these bills back up, but they are actually 
looking to cut funding for dozens of critical grants and 
government services that support State and local law 
enforcement. How exactly is this supposed to protect victims of 
violent crime in Washington, DC?
    Meanwhile, D.C. has the highest per capita spending on 
police in the country. Also, D.C. has the largest per capita 
police force, the most officers per resident of any city in the 
country.
    So, D.C. is investing in law enforcement, and it will keep 
investing in law enforcement, but Democrats know that this is 
just part of the answer. Law enforcement, to be effective, it 
also has to have the trust of the community it serves. Officers 
have to be able to get tips from community members to solve 
crimes.
    That is why we supported the George Floyd Justice in 
Policing Act to fund training, promote accountability, and 
strengthen public trust; 212 House Republicans--that is to say, 
all of them at the time--voted against it.
    Now, communities have fewer homicides when there are fewer 
illegal guns. That is why we established a Federal crime for 
gun trafficking and straw purchasing in the Bipartisan Safer 
Communities Act. It became law over the objections of 193 
Republicans who voted against it.
    Crime prevention is about much more than law enforcement. 
That is why we passed the Break the Cycle of Violence Act to 
invest in community violence intervention and job training 
programs for 16-24-year-olds; 207 Republicans voted against it.
    Time and time again, Democrats have put forth comprehensive 
public safety solutions to fund law enforcement, support 
community partners, provide job opportunities, and combat gun 
trafficking. Republicans have opposed these efforts over and 
over; instead, offering hearing after hearing that serve as 
nothing more than a press release.
    These political stunts are not a solution, but they are all 
Republicans have to offer. Don't forget that, when a violent 
mob of right-wing extremists stormed the Capitol on January 
6th, following encouragement from Donald Trump, few of our 
Republican colleagues were worried about violent crime in D.C. 
on that day.
    When that mob beat police officers, including both Capitol 
Police and the D.C. Metropolitan Police who came to provide 
support, many of our Republican colleagues downplayed the 
brutality that these officers faced.
    When Speaker Pelosi brought forth a bill to honor the 
Capitol Police and the D.C. Police with Congressional gold 
medals, 21 Republicans, including Members of this Committee, 
voted against it.
    Finally, I want to address a statistic that came up in a 
different hearing that Republicans on the Oversight Committee 
held, which is also intended to beat up D.C., and also came up 
in the Chair's opening statement this morning. They attacked 
the U.S. Attorney for the District of Columbia, Matthew Graves, 
for declining to charge 67 percent of the arrestees referred to 
his office in Fiscal Year 2022, implying that he is soft on 
crime.
    What they didn't mention is that the rate of charges for 
the most serious violent crimes is much higher. In fact, it is 
90 percent. Their misleading statistic also ignore the fact 
that some cases are not resulting in charges because there 
simply isn't enough evidence at the time of arrest to support a 
charge. The U.S. Attorney's Office continues to investigate 
these cases and may bring charges later, but those charges are 
not reflected in that misleading statistic. Further, some 
charges are not pursued because the victim simply does not want 
to press charges, and the government does not have enough 
evidence to proceed without the victim's testimony.
    In any case, the U.S. Attorney is a Federal official, and 
if we want him to do more, we can give him more resources. That 
would require real action from a Republican majority that 
cannot even manage the basic functions of government, and that 
appears more interested in defunding the FBI, the ATF, and 
other Federal law enforcement agencies, than in offering 
solutions to communities that need our help.
    I look forward to hearing from our witnesses about how the 
many solutions that Democrats have offered can improve public 
safety in D.C. and across our Nation. Unlike our colleagues, we 
are ready to act.
    I yield back.
    Mr. Biggs. Without objection, all other opening statements 
will be included in the record.
    Mr. Biggs. I will now introduce today's witnesses.
    Detective Gregg Pemberton, thank you for being here.
    Mr. Pemberton is a retired D.C. Metropolitan Police 
Department detective, who serves as the Chair of the D.C. 
Police Union. He represents more than 3,600 officers and has 
testified before Congress previously about the challenges that 
police officers face on the job.
    Are you not retired?
    Mr. Pemberton. I'm an active-duty detective, sir. Thank 
you.
    Mr. Biggs. Well, maybe I got that wrong. I think I did get 
that wrong. I apologize.
    Mr. Pemberton. I'll take you up on being retired.
    [Laughter.]
    Mr. Biggs. Sorry. I apologize, Detective.
    Mr. Gaynor Jablonski is the owner of the Valor Brewpub, a 
veterans-focused bar in Washington, DC. On June 29, 2023, he 
was attacked inside his business while his four-year-old son 
was present. The assailant pointed a gun at Mr. Jablonski and 
his son. D.C. prosecutors offered the assailant a plea deal and 
released him, pending sentencing.
    Mr. Mitchell Sobolevsky. Mr. Sobolevsky was robbed at 
gunpoint in Washington, DC. His assailant, subsequently, had 
his sentence reduced and went on to rob two additional people.
    Mr. Charles ``Cully'' Stimson is the Deputy Director of the 
Edwin Meese Center at the Heritage Foundation. His work focuses 
on criminal law and drug control policies, as well as issues 
related to national security and armed conflict.
    Ms. Myisha Richards is a firefighter and paramedic in 
Washington, DC. On July 31, 2020, she was assaulted and beaten 
by two people who called 911 for assistance. One of her 
attacker's cases was dropped, while the other was recently 
sentenced to approximately 60 hours of community service.
    Deputy Mayor Lindsey Appiah. Ms. Appiah serves as the 
deputy mayor for public safety and justice in Washington, DC. 
She previously served as Assistant General Counsel and interim 
Director of the D.C. Department of Youth Rehabilitation 
Services.
    Mr. Thomas Abt is the Chair of the Violent Crime Working 
Group and a Senior Fellow at the Council on Criminal Justice. 
His research focuses on violent crime and other public safety 
problems.
    Again, thank you, each of you, for being here today. We 
look forward to your testimony. It is important, and I know you 
are going to provide us with some real enlightenment today.
    We will begin by swearing you in. Would you each please 
rise and raise your right hand?
    Do you swear or affirm under penalty of perjury that the 
testimony you are about to give is true and correct to the best 
of your knowledge, information, and belief, so help you God?
    Let the record reflect that the witnesses have answered in 
the affirmative.
    You may be seated.
    Please know that your written testimony will be entered 
into the record in its entirety. Accordingly, we ask that you 
summarize your testimony in five minutes. I think that the 
light will go yellow right there when you have a minute left. 
You might hear me lightly tap right about five minutes, so you 
will know to wrap up, if you haven't wrapped up yet.
    So, we are going to begin today with Mr. Stimson first. You 
are recognized, sir, for five minutes.

                  STATEMENT OF CHARLES STIMSON

    Mr. Stimson. Chair Biggs, Ranking Member Lee, and Members 
of the Subcommittee, thank you for inviting me to testify here 
this morning. My name is Charles Stimson. I am a Senior Legal 
Fellow at the Heritage Foundation, but I am testifying in my 
own capacity to offer solutions.
    In the last 30 years, I have practiced criminal law as a 
criminal defense lawyer; a prosecutor at the local, State, and 
Federal level in four jurisdictions; and a trial judge in the 
Navy JAG Corps. I also served as an Assistant United States 
Attorney here in D.C. in the U.S. Attorney's Office. I was born 
here in the District.
    Let me start by saying the obvious. The goal of the 
criminal justice system is narrow, but noble. It is to help 
solve crime. It is to enforce the criminal laws on the books in 
a fair, constitutional and predictable manner. It is not 
designed to fix society's ills. We have a murder problem in 
this city. If D.C. was a State, it would have the highest 
homicide rate per 100,000 residents of all States.
    In my testimony, I want to address five quick points.
    First, the D.C. City Council's laws and statements by 
members of that council have eroded accountability and 
contributed to the rise of crime across the city. The council 
has proven themselves incapable of creating a revised criminal 
code for the District. Their goal was to shrink the system, not 
hold criminals accountable. They had a decarceration agenda 
from the start. The laws they passed were so radical that they 
eliminated all mandatory minimum sentences of all crimes except 
first degree murder.
    Second, the D.C. U.S. Attorney's Office currently has 
policies and practices that undermine public safety in the 
city. Let me give you two examples.

    (1) Guns. The use of guns by career felons is a huge 
problem in this city. Every single day, the MPD arrests felons 
in possession of firearms. Ask Greg Pemberton. Yet, instead of 
prosecuting those felons in Federal District Court under 18 
U.S.C. 922(g) where they would receive a mandatory minimum 
sentence of at least five years, the Office instead takes those 
cases to D.C. Superior Court where they often get probation and 
hardly ever prison time. That is a policy choice.
    (2) The Office has a 67 percent declination rate as the 
Chair mentioned. It was 31 percent in 2015. The same size 
office, 330 prosecutors exist in San Diego. Over a 20-year 
period that office has had a 22.6 percent declination rate. San 
Diego doesn't have a crime problem. D.C. does.

    Third, the judges of the D.C. Superior Court had eroded 
accountability in the criminal justice system by the 
notoriously light sentences across all categories of crime 
contributing to a culture of lawlessness in our city. The local 
appeals court in the city, the D.C. Court of Appeals, has 
issued opinions in the last few years that Congress should 
review since they have caused restrictions to be placed on law 
enforcement authorities and prosecutors that are far beyond the 
requirements of the U.S. Supreme Court in precedent.
    Fourth, D.C. Attorney General's Office, or OAG, handles 
juvenile crimes, for decades has failed in its mission to hold 
violent criminals accountable including murderers and armed 
carjackers. Most youths, let me be clear, need to be and are 
handled in the juvenile justice system. We need a juvenile 
justice system in this country, but there are certain crimes 
like murder, armed robbery, armed carjacking, rape, child 
sexual abuse, and other heinous crimes that should be handled 
in the adult court. Congress should strip the OAG from 
prosecuting all crimes and give that to the D.C. U.S. 
Attorney's Office.
    Finally, the D.C. Crime Lab's loss of its certification or 
suspension of its certification is emblematic of D.C.'s 
dysfunctional government as a whole. Opened in 2012 at the cost 
of $210 million, the Crime Lab has had problems from the 
beginning. The lab had its accreditation suspended in 2021, so 
the U.S. Attorney's Office had to use other labs. If the lab 
gets its accreditation back next year, there is no guarantee it 
won't lose it again. It is time to solve the problem and offer 
a solution. Congress should Federalize the lab and give it to 
the FBI, DEA, and ATF which would then handle all DNA, 
firearms, fingerprint, and other forensic evidence requests 
from the D.C.'s U.S. Attorney's Office.
    In conclusion, the crime problem here is a man-made 
problem. Criminal justice reform is not rocket science. The 
vast majority of victims of violent crime in our city are 
minorities. They deserve to live in peace. They deserve to 
sleep well at night and not worry about their kids getting 
shot. They deserve, just like the rest of us, their public 
safety privilege in their neighborhoods. Thank you for the 
opportunity to testify and I look forward to your questions.
    [The prepared statement of Mr. Stimson follows:]
    [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
    
    Mr. Biggs. Thank you, Mr. Stimson.
    Now, we will go to you, Mr. Pemberton. Thank you and I 
recognize you for five minutes.

                  STATEMENT OF GREGG PEMBERTON

    Mr. Pemberton. Thank you, sir. Good morning, Members of the 
Committee. Thank you for this opportunity to testify. As the 
Chair of the D.C. Police Union, I speak on behalf of 
approximately 3,000 sworn police officers, detectives, and 
sergeants who serve the District of Columbia as members of the 
Metropolitan Police Department. I am a Detective Grade 1. I 
have worked for the city for 18 years. I take great pride in 
serving the city.
    Much of my testimony here today will be a reiteration of 
testimony I provided to the House Oversight Committee seven 
months ago. Unfortunately, since that hearing, crime rates in 
the District of Columbia have only continued to skyrocket. This 
testimony will focus on issues related to public safety, crime, 
and law enforcement, and more specifically, numerous actions by 
the D.C. Council to include their rhetoric that has resulted in 
a mass exodus of sworn law enforcement officers and exponential 
increase violent crime.
    Beginning in June 2020, the D.C. Council began introducing 
antipolice legislation designed in their own words to ``act 
accordingly to bend the arc of justice.'' I would like to 
provide a list of just some of the legislation the D.C. Council 
would introduce over the course of the next two years: The 
Comprehensive Policing Justice Reform Amendment Act, the 
Strengthening Oversight and Accountability of Police Amendment 
Act, the Revised Criminal Code Amendment Act, Reducing Law 
Enforcement Presence in Schools Act, the Law Enforcement 
Qualified Immunity Cessation Act, the Law Enforcement Present 
Sense Impression Act, the Law Enforcement Vehicular Pursuant 
Reform Act, the School Police Incident Oversight and 
Accountability Amendment Act, and the White Supremacy in 
Policing Prevention Act.
    The rhetoric that council members used when speaking 
publicly about law enforcement amounted to nothing short of 
virulent attacks on all police officers in the District. One 
council member even stated in a public hearing,

        I know for a fact there are police in the District who are bad 
        actors and who have been going on without the proper penance.

    He also felt the need for Metropolitan police officers to 
receive ``some kind of retribution.'' Other council members 
bragged about defunding the department or making ``the biggest 
reduction to MPD he had ever seen.''
    Without delving into the granular details of how terrible 
these bills are or how blatantly awful the rhetoric used by the 
council was, I can assure the Members of this Committee that 
the direct result was a mass exodus of police officers from the 
department. To put a finer point on this issue of attrition, 
when I took office as head of the police union in April 2020, 
our membership reports showed we had 3,626 members of the rank 
and file which is all officers, detectives, and sergeants. Our 
most recent membership report from October 5, 2023, states we 
are down to 3,021. This is a net loss of 605 union members.
    Since the beginning of 2020, MPD has lost 1,329 officers, 
more than one third of the department. Five hundred and one of 
those separations, nearly 40 percent, were resignations, 
employees who just walked away from a career with the 
Metropolitan Police Department. These dangerously low police 
officer staffing levels take away valuable resources from our 
assignments, like detectives and investigative personnel, and 
impede the department's ability to engage and speak with 
victims in a timely manner.
    While there is much rhetoric around the concept of the 
number of police and the amount of crime, the following facts 
are indisputable. Crime stats year to date in the District are 
absolutely staggering. Homicides have reached 218, a 38 percent 
increase. Carjackings have reached almost 800 or 110 percent 
increase. Robberies are up 70 percent. Violent crime overall is 
up 40 percent. All crimes are up 28 percent. These statistics I 
have mentioned are city-wide. If one parses out the data to the 
neighborhood level, some of these communities have grown to 
look like war zones.
    Over the past 3\1/2\ years, our union has been sounding the 
alarm about this problem to anyone within earshot, including 
the D.C. City Council. We tried to inform our elected leaders 
of the unintended consequences of these policies. 
Unfortunately, we were ignored. D.C. residents and business 
owners are under siege. Members of Congress are being assaulted 
and carjacked. Their Congressional staff members are being 
robbed and stabbed. Tourists and visitors, your constituents, 
are being targeted and attacked. Yet, the D.C. Council fails to 
admit that their policies have played a significant role in 
this outcome.
    Now, over three years later, we have all seen the results 
of D.C. Council's experiments. The empirical data is in, and we 
know for certain that their efforts have been an abject 
failure, resulting in thousands more victims of crime in the 
city. The lasting impacts of these horrible policies will not 
be fully realized for some time and the efforts to repair the 
damage done could take decades without swift and thoughtful 
actions.
    If we do not fix the failing policies set in the place by 
the D.C. Council that our pushing our officers to leave MPD, 
crime will continue to rise and thousands more victims will be 
subjected to crime and violence.
    The purpose of my testimony here today is to inform the 
Committee on its on-going crisis that exists in the District 
and to publicly State we are prepared to assist in any way we 
can.
    Again, I thank you for the opportunity to testify and I 
welcome any questions that the Committee may have. Thank you.
    [The prepared statement of Mr. Pemberton follows:]
    [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
    
    Mr. Biggs. Thank you for your testimony.
    Now, Deputy Mayor Appiah, we recognize you for five 
minutes.

                  STATEMENT OF LINDSEY APPIAH

    Ms. Appiah. Good morning, Chair Biggs, Ranking Member 
Jackson Lee, and Members of the Subcommittee. I am Lindsey 
Appiah, I serve as Deputy Mayor for Public Safety and Justice 
for the District of Columbia, a position I was nominated to by 
Mayor Muriel Bowser and confirmed by the D.C. Council. Serving 
the residents and visitors of the District in this capacity is 
the honor of my life.
    By way of background, I have served for 11 years in 
District government, all which has been in public safety and 
justice, including as General Counsel and interim Director of 
the D.C. Department of Youth Rehabilitation Services, the 
District's juvenile justice agency.
    I want to acknowledge the witnesses who are sharing their 
perspectives and experiences in the space here, including Ms. 
Richards and Mr. Pemberton, who serve in agencies under my 
supervision. On behalf of the Mayor and the 700,000 residents 
of the District of Columbia, I express gratitude for their 
service and appreciate that they are able to be here to share 
information on the challenges we are facing in the District. 
Percents and numbers provide critical context. However, we can 
never lose sight that each statistic on a website read during a 
hearing is more than a number. The reality is there are no 
victimless crimes. We recognize the harm and trauma many have 
experienced, acknowledge our responsibility to respond 
hurriedly and urgently and vow to work tirelessly to make our 
city safer, stronger, and a place of collective flourishing.
    As Deputy Mayor for Public Safety and Justice, I provide 
direction, guidance, support, and coordination for the 
District's 12 public safety agencies and the D.C. National 
Guard, to develop and lead cross-cluster, interagency public 
safety initiatives, to improve the quality of life in the 
District neighborhoods. The missions of these agencies are 
dynamic and complex. Each plays a critical role in the overall 
health and functioning of our public safety and justice 
ecosystem. We call our system an ecosystem because an ecosystem 
is a complex, interconnected system that is dependent on each 
part for its help and optimal functioning. Our interdependent 
system is centered around prevention, intervention, 
enforcement, accountability, and rehabilitation.
    Prevention includes those non-law enforcement programs, 
services, and strategies aimed at decreasing the incidents of 
individuals committing violent crimes and in reducing the 
community conditions that lead to high rates of violent crime 
in communities in our city. It encompasses our work on 
providing coordinated delivery of wrap-around services and 
connecting our residents to a community that cares.
    Intervention and enforcement are primarily law enforcement 
strategies led by MPD. MPD does, currently, have the lowest 
force strength it has had since 1999. We are making investments 
to ensure that MPD can recruit and retain officers while also 
making investments in technology that will enhance our 
abilities to efficiently and effectively solve cases and bring 
much needed and deserved justice for victims in our city.
    Accountability includes the criminal justice system which 
we recognize is vital. Holding people appropriately 
accountability for their behaviors is critical to future 
determent. Currently, the D.C. Superior Court has 11 judicial 
vacancies.
    Our ecosystem has many pain and pressure points, but the 
District is investing significant resources into a multi-
pronged public safety approach that invests in law enforcement, 
prevention efforts, youth programming, reentry, and 
rehabilitation.
    Another complexity is the uniqueness of the District's 
criminal justice system's structure, one that is a mix of 
local, Federal, and independent agencies, most of which are not 
under the authority of the mayor. We need all our colleagues in 
these agencies to match the commitment in the District 
government to not just combat crime, but to approach the work 
with the belief that we can prevent the next crime and prevent 
someone else from becoming a victim.
    Mayor Bower has also maintained we have to have a policy 
environment that supports appropriate accountability. In the 
District, we are leaders in systemic reform. This is certainly 
true in the criminal justice space where we lead in pushing 
bounds of what is possible to achieve equal justice for all 
under the law. We can and should be proud of our progress, but 
we must not be so proud that we are unwilling to critically 
evaluate our reforms and adjust when unintended consequences 
are leading to harmful outcomes which is why in May, Mayor 
Bowser sent to the Council and introduced the Safer, Stronger 
Amendment Act of 2023, a common sense set of policy proposals 
aimed at providing additional tools across our system to combat 
crime. The D.C. Council recognized this as law and passed the 
Prioritizing Public Safety Emergency Amendment Act which 
incorporates several provisions from the Safer, Stronger Act.
    We know more must be done and I echo what the mayor 
testified in May. Our public safety agencies here in D.C. and 
across the country need the support of Congress. I am happy to 
answer questions about more ways that Congress can help to 
support all the efforts that we described in D.C. government to 
actually lower crime in the District. Thank you.
    [The prepared statement of Ms. Appiah follows:]
    [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
    
    Mr. Biggs. Thank you. Thank you, Deputy Mayor.
    Now, the Chair recognizes Mr. Abt for your five minutes.

                    STATEMENT OF THOMAS ABT

    Mr. Abt. Chair Biggs, Ranking Member Jackson Lee, and 
Members of the Subcommittee, I am Thomas Abt, Founding Director 
of the Center for the Study and Practice of Violence Reduction, 
also known as the Violence Reduction Center or VRC, located at 
the University of Maryland, College Park.
    VRC's mission is simple. We seek to save lives by stopping 
violence using science. Thank you for the opportunity to speak 
before you today on Victims of Violent Crime in the District of 
Columbia. This issue is personally and professionally important 
to me. I live here in the District. I was first exposed to 
violence while teaching at Roosevelt High School where one of 
my students was shot and killed. I fought crime in courtrooms 
in New York City while working as a local prosecutor. I helped 
start antiviolence initiatives as a senior Federal and State 
government official. Most recently, I have studied the issue of 
violent crime while working in academia.
    Violent crime in the United States should not be a partisan 
issue. In the wake of the corona virus pandemic violence surged 
around the Nation. It rose in urban, suburban, and rural areas. 
It rose in Red States and in Blue States. It rose in cities run 
by Republicans and in those led by Democrats. Recently, rates 
of violent crime have started to decline. Again, they are 
decreasing in both Red and Blue jurisdictions alike.
    While violence is falling in most cities around the 
country, that is unfortunately not the case here in the 
District. As of this past Tuesday, violent crime is up 40 
percent compared with the same time last year and up 30 percent 
compared to the same period in 2019 before the pandemic began.
    Crime has been falling steeply in the District for the past 
30 days, but no one should be satisfied with that. Why is crime 
rising here, while falling nationally? We need to acknowledge 
that this is a complicated question that is hard to answer with 
certainty. Nationally, our best answer is that violence surged 
during the pandemic due to the pandemic, unrest following the 
murder of George Floyd, and a massive surge in legal gun sales. 
As we get farther from those factors, violence across the 
country seems to be slowing.
    Locally, we need to understand that Washington, DC, is 
unique. The Metropolitan Police Department is one of more than 
20 law enforcement agencies operating in the jurisdiction. 
Prosecution is split between the U.S. Attorney's Office and the 
Office of the Attorney General. Judges are appointed by the 
President and confirmed by the Senate. There is no other 
jurisdiction in the Nation that is jointly administered in this 
way.
    If there is one thing I know after more than 25 years in 
this field is this, reducing crime and violence is a team 
sport. If individual players do not play well together, the 
team will not succeed. Collaboration is key. Collaborating is 
hard in any jurisdiction, but it is especially hard here in the 
District due to its unusual local-Federal structure. That is no 
excuse. The District can and should do better in communicating, 
collaborating, and executing its antivio-lence strategies. It 
is not easy, however, and Congress can help the city in several 
Congressional ways. I will mention just a few here.
    Every criminal justice system requires the sharing of the 
information of function. Here in the District, however, the 
Privacy Act of 1974 prohibits Federal agencies from disclosing 
critical information to local agencies. Congress could amend 
the Privacy Act to enable the effective sharing of information. 
By the start of 2024, the District's Crime Lab will have been 
without accreditation for nearly three years. The city needs 
and deserves a first-rate lab. Congress could support 
accreditation by appropriating funding for the lab and for 
external testing in the interim.
    The District, as you heard, is currently struggling with 
numerous judicial vacancies. Congress could pass the District 
of Columbia Courts of Judicial Vacancy Reduction Act and apply 
a 60-day Congressional review period to D.C. nominees and 
remove the requirement that the Senate hold hearings and vote 
on these nominations.
    None of these actions are likely to garner headlines, but 
they would make a difference in terms of safety for D.C. 
residents. They are all nonpartisan and things that the Members 
of both parties should be able to agree on. More broadly, just 
over 1\1/2\ years ago when rates of violent crime across the 
country were at their peak, I urged this Committee to put aside 
partisanship and support $6 billion in Federal funding for 
evidence informed antiviolence strategies carried out by local, 
community-based organizations, and local law enforcement 
agencies. That funding and those strategies are still sorely 
needed today in the District and around the Nation.
    Then is now, and you must remember that when it comes to 
violent crime, it is about solving a deadly serious problem, 
not winning an abstract argument. It is about emphasizing 
evidence over ideology, and it is about bringing people 
together, not pulling them apart. Thank you.
    [The prepared statement of Mr. Abt follows:]
    [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
    
    Mr. Biggs. Thank you, Mr. Abt, for your testimony.
    Now, the Chair recognizes Mr. Sobolevsky for your five 
minutes.

                STATEMENT OF MITCHELL SOBOLEVSKY

    Mr. Sobolevsky. Thank you, Chair Biggs and Ranking Member 
Jackson Lee for the opportunity to address the Subcommittee 
today.
    While this didn't occur in D.C., I would first like to 
honor and recognize my father-in-law, who was shot and killed 
in Jacksonville, Florida, on December 4, 2022.
    I am going to discuss my experience though, as a victim of 
violent crime in the District of Columbia. On December 16, 
2020, I made a series of mistakes that almost cost me my life. 
Some may say it is victim blaming, but the reality is crime 
exists. If you are not careful in violent cities like D.C., you 
may end up just as another statistic.
    Shortly after 5 p.m. on December 16th, I left my apartment 
on N Street in Shaw, just a short walk from the White House. I 
was headed to get groceries and I did not realize that I would 
soon face a loaded barrel. Just as I began walking, I noticed a 
man acting suspiciously. He was looking over at me across the 
block and I told myself nothing was wrong and that nothing bad 
was going to happen to me. After all, the street was busy. What 
could go wrong?
    I turned down the block and I headed toward the grocery 
store, and I checked behind and there he was, still eyeing me. 
He followed in my direction. Alarmed, I noticed a couple 
walking just behind me and behind them, the would-be criminal. 
I thought to myself, don't worry, there are people right behind 
me. It is OK. A few moments passed and I looked again and the 
couple is nowhere to be seen and the man is quickly 
approaching. Before I could think, he was next to me asking for 
money. I politely said no and kept walking without realizing he 
had pulled a gun. The criminal stepped in front of me and said, 
you know what it is, before aiming a pistol at my face and 
pressing it against my forehead. I almost didn't believe it, 
but then reality set in, and I thought I was going to lose my 
life to a criminal on the street. I will never forget our 
interaction line by line. He told me, ``do what I say and you 
ain't going to die tonight.'' All I could hear was you are 
going to die tonight. Then my mom would have to come down to 
D.C. to identify my body on some cold street in Washington, DC.
    I remember looking into his eyes and seeing no life, no 
thought, no empathy, just evil. During the entire interaction 
where he demanded property after property from me, his finger 
laid on the trigger while the pistol pointed directly at my 
head. I, fortunately, concealed my phone. While I was foolish 
not to hand it over, it expedited my ability to call for help. 
I remember the last words out of his mouth muffled by his COVID 
mask, ``all right, you did good tonight. You ain't gonna die.'' 
I thought well, this is where he shoots me. He stood me up and 
told me to walk and I did. After a few steps, I turned around 
and I could see him start to run. I repeatedly told myself, 
Mitchell, you have your phone, call 911. I took cover behind a 
parked cover and called exactly who you would want to respond 
in that situation, the police. Within minutes squad cars lined 
on 10th and N. I will never forget seeing the siren lights come 
and thanking God for the police. A young female officer 
responded immediately, and I knew I was safe and that my life 
was spared.
    I am trying to remain in my five minutes. I would like to 
note that after the arrest and coordinated with the U.S. 
Attorney's Office in D.C. my criminal went to trial. I gladly 
and passionately wrote an impact statement. I pleaded with the 
judge not to give a lenient sentence as this man would commit 
worse crimes than what he did to me. The judge proceeded to 
give my criminal 24 months and suspended a year of his sentence 
because the judge believed his judgment was still forming. This 
light sentence was given despite my criminal robbing six 
victims and two businesses. That is right. One year for 
multiple armed robberies. Within weeks of my criminal's 
release, he would go on to rob two more people at gunpoint. I 
would only find this out because I was reading the D.C. weekly 
arrests. We will never be able to eradicate violent crime 
completely, but we can take action to ensure that it happens 
less frequently.
    Today, D.C. has the highest violent homicides in almost 20 
years. It is short 400 police officers with the average 
homicide suspect having 11 prior arrests.
    I implore the Subcommittee to understand that policing, 
prosecuting, and most importantly, incarceration works. Violent 
crimes should not be dealt with lightly. How many more stories 
do we have to read about entirely preventable tragedies? Thank 
you. I look forward to your questions.
    [The prepared statement of Mr. Sobolevsky follows:]
    [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
    
    Mr. Biggs. Thank you, Mr. Sobolevsky for your compelling 
testimony. I appreciate you being here.
    Mr. Jablonski, I understand you have a video that you wish 
to show?
    Mr. Jablonski. Yes, please.
    Mr. Biggs. I recognize Mr. Jablonski for his five minutes, 
and we will show that video to begin.
    [Video played.]

                 STATEMENT OF GAYNOR JABLONSKI

    Mr. Jablonski. Thank you. Thank you for inviting me, Mr. 
Chair.
    As horrific as that video is, what happened after was even 
worse. He was arrested. We found out he was a Door Dash driver 
and for no reason why he acted that way. Within 10 days of him 
being arrested, after numerous conversations with the DA Office 
saying that I would do anything they needed to do not to plea 
this down, there were numerous eyewitnesses. There is a loaded 
nine-millimeter. It is kind of hard see there that this was 
pointed at my son. Not only was it loaded, but there was one in 
the chamber. When I knocked it out of his pants, luckily it 
didn't go off. It could have killed someone.
    The DA told me that they had to take him to account their 
resources and my resources and that they would plead this down 
to an attempted assault with a dangerous weapon and illegal 
possession of a firearm. When I challenged them as to why they 
would do that, and how does that take into account the 
endangerment of a minor, I was told that D.C. does not have a 
law for the endan-germent of a minor.
    After all that, I asked OK, well, ``what is the sentencing 
guidelines you are asking?'' Twelve to 18 months. I went to the 
sentencing date. He was released on his own recognizance 
basically. Went to the sentencing date. Made a victim impact 
statement and without a doubt in my mind if I didn't do that, 
his attorney was asking for divergence, and he probably would 
have been released.
    So, out of this entire situation, I now have bad publicity 
for my own business because people now worry there is somebody 
on the street walking around with a gun. This is at 2:30 in the 
afternoon. People are now telling me I am hesitating about 
ordering from Door Dash which maybe hurts Door Dash, but 
ultimately hurts the small businesses that support--helped 
through Door Dash. Then on top of everything else, he gets 
eight months and I am left explaining to my five-year-old that 
why I had to fight this man and my five-year-old tells me when 
I drop him off at school every day be safe.
    I understand I was born here. Been numerous--I have been in 
the bar industry for 25 years. I have seen the craziest things 
you can imagine. In the last 2-3 years, the brazenness of the 
violent acts that are going on in the city, but just around, in 
general, have gotten to the point where it is ridiculous. Now 
that I have been through the whole process from start to 
finish, you could enact whatever law you want. We could have a 
thousand new laws. We could have a thousand new police 
officers. You could throw millions at this DA's office. If 
nobody is going to do their job and prosecute and hold people 
accountable, what is the point?
    Thank you and I look forward to any questions.
    [The prepared statement of Mr. Jablonsky follows:]
    [GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
    
    Mr. Biggs. Thank you, Mr. Jablonski for your testimony. The 
Chair recognizes Ms. Richards for your five minutes.

                  STATEMENT OF MYISHA RICHARDS

    Ms. Richards. Good morning. My name is Myisha Richards and 
I'm a firefighter paramedic with D.C. Fire and EMS. I've been 
in the Fire Service since 2009 and I began as a volunteer and 
loved every minute of my duties. My dream was to become a 
firefighter paramedic in the Nation's capital. I spent 
countless hours perfecting my craft in hopes of being able to 
serve the citizens of Washington, DC. My hard work finally paid 
off and I was hired on October 16, 2017.
    When I graduated from the academy, I was assigned to Engine 
32 in Ward 8. I loved every minute while working in the 
community and being able to help the citizens in any way that I 
can. One of my favorite things to do is to engage with the 
community and talk with the MPD officers. At times we played 
basketball together with neighborhood kids when we had some 
down time.
    On July 31, 2020, my partner and I responded to a 9-1-1 
call for a 90-year-old female in respiratory distress. When I 
arrived on scene, we had to get fully dressed from head to toe 
and full COVID PPE before we can enter the home.
    In the academy they teach us that scene safety is one of 
the most important things on a call. As a provider you have to 
be safe, you have to make sure your partner's safe to ensure 
proper and safe patient care.
    Once we entered, we found two females and one male in a 
back bedroom. The female caller was irate and stated we took 
too long and did not care about COVID--and that she did not 
care about COVID. The gentleman standing in the corner told her 
to allow us to do our job. The two subjects then began to fight 
each other.
    My partner and I did what we were trained to do, which is 
get out of the house and call a 1033 code to bring the police 
for help. I made it to the landing of the steps, reached for my 
radio, and before I could call the 1033 code, both females 
jumped over the banister onto the landing and began to punch 
and kick me while pulling my hair and holding my head down in 
place, naturally making the radio fall down the flight of 
steps. The man on scene stood holding my partner at the top of 
the stairs. Two minutes went by before I was able to get free 
and get my radio to call for help.
    I suffered a severe concussion and had a laceration above 
my eye which required stitches. These were the physical wounds 
that in time healed, however the mental impact will last a 
lifetime.
    Since this event I have been to the Center of Excellence, 
which is a rehab and mental health facility for firefighters. 
I'm having to learn how to live with PTSD and still do the job 
I love, without being anxious and fearing for the worst on 
every call.
    Prior to 2020, I felt like MPD's response to these routine 
medical calls in Ward 8 more. Their police presence was all 
that was needed to ensure our safety and to make sure the 
citizens were safe and able to get care without any violent 
interruptions. I feel safer on the job when I know MPD is 
either there or just a quick call away. We as a department are 
grateful for them especially when they're looking out for us on 
these streets. The amounts of assaults, violence, and shootings 
in the District are skyrocketing and it makes me feel less 
safe, especially after my incident.
    Just this week my coworkers can be heard screaming over the 
radio for a 1033 because an agitated patient tried to climb 
into the driver's compartment, maybe even trying to steal the 
ambulance. During all this chaos a gunshot wound victim was 
dropped off in the same place.
    This year, I received a phone call from the DA telling me 
nothing was going to happen to the two women who assaulted me. 
I was told that one of the women will receive community service 
not because of what she did to me, but because while in the 
process of prosecuting her for this crime she picked up 
additional charges. The other woman's charge would be dropped.
    I love this city, but we need to do better, and our first 
responders need to feel safe. The Nation's Capital is no longer 
a place where firefighters and EMS workers can render care to 
those in need without worrying of becoming a patient 
themselves. Several times a month we are on calls running from 
nearby gunshots or having a stage prior to getting a violent--
prior to going into a violent scene because we are waiting for 
police officers to respond.
    When I took the oath and was sworn in to be a firefighter 
paramedic in Washington, DC, I was fully prepared and aware the 
possibility of dying in a fire could become a reality at any 
moment, however I did not expect that while helping someone 
during their most vulnerable time and need during a medical 
emergency that the tables could quickly turn on me and I could 
become a victim of an assault and lose my life trying to save 
another.
    In closing I want to thank all of you for this opportunity 
to share my story in hopes to find a solution to this 
detrimental uptick in violence and crime we have in the 
Nation's Capital and that our first responders are being looked 
out for, so we can look out for the citizens of Washington, DC, 
who need our help.
    [The prepared statement of Ms. Richards follows:]
    [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
    
    Mr. Biggs. Thank you, Ms. Richards, for your testimony.
    The Chair recognizes now Mr. Gaetz for his five minutes of 
questions.
    Mr. Gaetz. Madam Deputy Mayor, are people more or less safe 
this year compared to last year in Washington, DC?
    Deputy Mayor Appiah. I can't say whether they're more or 
less safe. I can say that crime is up and so long as anyone 
doesn't feel safe, then that's an issue for us.
    Mr. Gaetz. Would higher crime rates be one of the more 
important indicators as to whether or not people are more or 
less safe?
    Deputy Mayor Appiah. It would be an indicator as to whether 
or not people feel more or less safe, so it's something that we 
certainly look at in determining that.
    Mr. Gaetz. I don't know. I think people could feel unsafe 
even if they were safe, but this doesn't seem to be a delusion, 
right? The cases of sexual assault rose 111 percent over the 
course of a year; homicides increased by 38 percent; motor 
vehicle thefts doubled, increasing 106 percent; instances of 
arson, over 125 percent; and carjackings by 55 percent. Why do 
you think that is?
    Deputy Mayor Appiah. There's a host of complex reasons why 
that's the case. You've heard some. We talk about our 
ecosystem, policy reasons, right? There are--
    Mr. Gaetz. Do you think the softening of crime policies is 
one reason?
    Deputy Mayor Appiah. I don't know that I would say soft on 
crime policies. What I would say is that there's a number of 
reforms in policy that have been made in the District that we 
believe need to be adjusted, which is why there's been a number 
of proposals from the mayor, legislation passed by the council 
to take a look at where we're getting the type of impact that 
we don't want.
    Mr. Gaetz. I agree with Mr. Abt that the only way this 
works is with collaboration. So, what do you think you would 
highlight as the main policy change that the mayor has proposed 
that could maybe put some downward pressure on this rising 
violent crime?
    Deputy Mayor Appiah. Sure. There's a host of proposals that 
the mayor made related to penalty enhancements, to aligning 
penalties for gun crimes with Federal penalties. So, there's 
those, but there's also those on information sharing--
    Mr. Gaetz. So, hold on. Let's start with those, though. The 
underlying premise is that enhanced punishment can have a 
deterrent effect and reduce crime, right?
    Deputy Mayor Appiah. We absolutely agree with that, yes. 
Accountability is an important part of crime deterrence.
    Mr. Gaetz. I am definitely not blaming you for this because 
it is not your job, but when we look at the fact that the 
prosecutor over the D.C. area has doubled their declinations, 
like from your standpoint on the front lines in city government 
do you think that doubling the number of declinations goes in 
the right direction or the wrong direction?
    Deputy Mayor Appiah. I would say that what we believe is 
that if MPD has made arrests, that people need to be held 
appropriately accountable. We always maintain that--
    Mr. Gaetz. It seems like the underlying premise of 
appropriately accountable is to have penalty enhancements 
that--it is not as if you think people are being held too 
accountable, it is that they are not being held accountable 
enough, right?
    Deputy Mayor Appiah. There, absolutely, needs to be 
accountability for those who engage in violent crime.
    Mr. Gaetz. I think Ms. Richards would probably agree with 
that.
    Your testimony was harrowing, but it really concerned me 
that people might not be willing to do these life-saving, 
critically important jobs like firefighting and EMS if they 
feel like they are going into a war zone. You gave testimony 
about what it was like to wait on the police as you are trying 
to save people's lives and help them. Is there anything you 
would like to add to that?
    Ms. Richards. That's the State that we're in right now. 
I've waited in excess of 20 minutes before trying to get MPD on 
scene for a violent call.
    Mr. Gaetz. What do you do for 20 minutes?
    Ms. Richards. We stage and we wait because at this point, 
we're no longer going in--we're not going to those scenes.
    Mr. Gaetz. What happens to the people who need your help?
    Ms. Richards. So, therefore the citizens are not getting 
treated, they can't have our services because it's not safe for 
us to go in there.
    Mr. Gaetz. That sounds like life or death to me, that 
people could actually die because we don't have enough police 
to keep even our own first responders safe that want to save 
people's lives. Have you been confronted with these types of 
life-or-death situations where people can't get the care they 
need, because essentially you are waiting for fire power and 
cover to be able to go help people?
    Ms. Richards. I could say that, yes, there's been times 
where we have to wait. Like I said, I've waiting personally 
myself in excess of 20 minutes for the MPD to arrive on scene.
    Mr. Gaetz. Yes. I would observe, Mr. Chair, that D.C. has 
some of the strongest gun control laws in the country, and 
increasingly the law-abiding people, the people who want to be 
helpful, who want to be good neighbors are constrained by those 
gun control laws, and yet the violent criminals are putting Ms. 
Richards and all the people who want to do the good work she 
does in graver danger. That might be something worthy of some 
Federal review. I yield back.
    Mr. Biggs. The gentleman yields.
    The Chair recognizes the Ranking Member, Ms. Jackson Lee.
    Ms. Jackson Lee. Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
    At this time, I want to yield to the Ranking Member of the 
Full Committee, Mr. Nadler, who will then yield to the District 
of Columbia Congresswoman, Eleanor Holmes Norton. I yield to 
Mr. Nadler.
    Mr. Nadler. Thank you. Mr. Chair, this hearing is not a 
serious exercise. My Republican colleagues have shown very 
little interest in the welfare of the people of Washington, DC, 
and this political stunt is further evidence of that.
    Rather than asking questions myself I would like to yield 
my time to the person who has dedicated her life to 
representing the Nation's Capital and its residence, the 
gentlewoman from Washington, DC, Ms. Norton.
    Mr. Biggs. I just want to--just kind of a personal 
clarification. So, whose time--Mr. Nadler's? It is Mr. Nadler's 
time is going to Ms. Norton? OK. Thank you.
    Ms. Norton, you are recognized.
    Ms. Norton. Thank you and I thank my good friend for 
yielding.
    As the only Member of Congress elected by the nearly 
700,000 District of Columbia residents, I appreciate the 
opportunity to weigh on this Committee for the purposes of this 
hearing.
    I am deeply saddened that some of the witnesses for this 
hearing were victims of crime in the District, however while 
the Federal government controls much of D.C.'s criminal justice 
system, to the extent that this hearing focuses on D.C.'s local 
laws and local government, it violates the purposes of the D.C. 
Home Rule Act, which is to, among other things, and I am 
quoting,

        Grant the inhabitants of the District of Columbia powers of 
        local self-government and relieve the Congress of the burden of 
        legislating upon essentially local district matters.

    While Congress has Constitutional authority to legislate on 
local D.C. matters, it does not have a Constitutional duty to 
do so. Instead, legislating on local D.C. matters is a choice. 
James Madison said in Federalist 43 about the residents of the 
District, and I'm quoting,

        A municipal legislature for the local purposes derived from 
        their own suffrages will of course be allowed them.

    The Supreme Court has held that Congress may delegate, 
quote, ``full legislative power to D.C. on local D.C. 
matters.'' D.C.'s local legislature, the D.C. Council, has 13 
members. The members are elected by D.C. residents. If D.C. 
residents do not like the laws the council adopts, they can 
vote the members out of office. That is called democracy.
    Congress has 535 voting members. The members are elected by 
residents of States. None are elected by or accountable to D.C. 
residents. If D.C. residents do not like the laws Congress 
adopts, they cannot vote the members out of office.
    The Revolutionary War was fought to give consent to the 
governed and to end taxation without representation, yet D.C. 
residents cannot consent to any action taken by Congress 
whether on national or local D.C. matters and pay full Federal 
taxes. Indeed, D.C. residents pay more Federal taxes per capita 
than any State and more local Federal taxes than 19 States. 
D.C. residents, a majority of whom are Black and Brown, are 
capable and worthy of governing themselves.
    If House Republicans cared about Democratic principles or 
local D.C. residents, they would bring my D.C. Statehood Bill, 
which would give D.C. residents voting representation in 
Congress and full local self-government to the floor.
    Congress has the Constitutional authority to admit the 
State of Washington, DC, if simply that is the will. I yield 
back and I thank the chairman.
    Mr. Biggs. The gentlelady yields back.
    The Chair recognizes the gentleman from California, Mr. 
Kiley.
    Mr. Kiley. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
    We have heard testimony today about a culture of 
lawlessness in Washington, DC, and how crime rates are 
absolutely staggering. This is, of course, sadly true in other 
places across the United States: In Manhattan, in Chicago, in 
San Francisco, and Los Angeles. D.C. is a particularly 
compelling case study because of the unique nature of the 
District as a sort of self-contained jurisdiction. It allows us 
to really parse the different elements of that culture of 
lawlessness and how they have become mutually reinforcing in a 
way that has caused crime to spiral out of control. 
Specifically, those elements would be the laws, police, 
prosecutors, and judges.
    So, starting first with the laws, Detective Pemberton, you 
represent 3,000 sworn officers, is that right?
    Mr. Pemberton. Yes, sir. Excuse me. Yes, sir, that's 
correct.
    Mr. Kiley. Thank you for your service and for all of them 
for the incredibly important and dangerous work that they do on 
a daily basis.
    You described in your testimony a spate of antipolice 
legislation such as the Comprehensive Policing and Justice 
Reform Act of 2020, the Revised Criminal Code Amendment Act of 
2021, the Reducing Law Enforcement Presence in Schools Act of 
2021. How would you summarize the overall effect of this 
legislation on criminal penalties in the District?
    Mr. Pemberton. Well, it's very wide-reaching. So, the first 
thing I would point to is the staffing levels and the morale of 
the police department. As I stated in my testimony, I think 
we're down somewhere in the neighborhood of 500 police officers 
from where we were just before this legislation was introduced.
    The legislation is designed to hamper and hamstring police 
officers and make it absolutely difficult for them to do their 
jobs. In addition to that, it exposes them to liability of 
administrative, civil, and even criminal penalties even when 
they go out and do their job properly, responsibly, and 
constitutionally.
    So, one major aspect of that is that people will leave an 
agency; they don't want to work under those sorts of onerous 
provisions. The other part of it is that it has a chilling 
effect, that there are still obviously thousands of police 
officers that have not left the agency, but it now--there's a 
second guessing as to whether or not they want to engage in the 
positive proactive policing that they used to engage, in which, 
was so effective at keeping these crime rates low. So, those 
are the two major aspects of what is happening, at least to the 
rank and file.
    As you stated in your question, the effects go into the 
entire ecosystem, as the deputy mayor mentioned.
    Mr. Kiley. That is right.
    Mr. Pemberton. Every aspect of the criminal justice system 
in D.C. is broken and the reason it is broken is because of 
these laws that the D.C. Council--
    Mr. Kiley. So, that actually answers my next question. So, 
you have this lowering of penalties across the board. Then even 
where penalties exist you still have someone who needs to get 
caught to be subject to those penalties. The defunding of 
police and the antipolice rhetoric from politicians from here 
has decreased that presence in the city, is that right?
    Mr. Pemberton. That's absolutely right. So, when we talk 
about this ecosystem of criminal justice, the front end of 
that, the intake system is police officers putting handcuffs on 
people who they have probable cause to believe committed a 
crime. If we're not doing that, a lot of the stuff downstream 
of that: Prosecutions, judges--
    Mr. Kiley. Yes.
    Mr. Pemberton. --supervision, that has very little effect 
because the number of people that we're actually arresting and 
bringing in--
    Mr. Kiley. That is right. Then when even we go downstream--
Mr. Stimson, you used to work for the Chief Prosecutor here--
how do the prosecutions rates here compare to other 
jurisdictions?
    Mr. Stimson. So, I've worked in four DA Offices and here 
this is the highest declination rate of any of those four DA 
Offices. As I said in my written testimony and in my oral 
statement, take two like-sized city DA Offices. San Diego has 
330 DAs. The U.S. Attorney's Office has 330 DAs. As was just 
mentioned, there are 700,000 residents here in the District, 
which is about 2,000-and-some persons per prosecutor.
    San Diego has 3.2 million residents in the county. So those 
prosecutors each serve about 9,000-plus residents, yet the San 
Diego DA's Office in the last 20 years has a 22.6-percent 
declination rate and a 77-percent issuance rate of charges. So, 
San Diego doesn't have a crime problem. I would respectfully 
disagree with one of the other witnesses and those who've 
mentioned that crime only spiked during COVID. It actually 
started going up in 2016 in cities with soft on crime 
prosecutors.
    Mr. Kiley. Sure. Then you also testified as to how the 
judges in this district tend to have much lighter sentencing 
than in other jurisdictions as well. So, at each stage of it 
you have an unavailability of serious penalties. You have a 
limited police presence because of defunding, and other 
antipolice policies. You have a very high declination rate by 
the prosecutor. Then even when people are prosecuted, very 
light sentences for the judges.
    So, that culture of lawlessness has contributed to this 
jurisdiction having a higher murder rate than anywhere else in 
the country and these absolutely staggering crimes statistics 
that we heard.
    Now, I am out of time, but just as a question, Detective 
Pemberton, I think that perhaps the biggest thing that we can 
do to change that culture of lawlessness is to create a new 
level of support for law enforcement, to recruit more folks 
into the profession, to improve morale. Do you have thoughts on 
how we can do that?
    Mr. Biggs. The gentleman's time has expired, but, Detective 
Pemberton, you may respond.
    Mr. Pemberton. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
    Yes, that's right. So, these--particularly when we're 
talking about these bills passed by the city council, the 
Comprehensive Policing and Justice Reform Act, this is 
absolutely detrimental to the hiring and the attrition rates of 
the Metropolitan Police Department. Without getting rid of at 
least some of the provisions within that bill it's going to be 
impossible for us to staff the police departments at the level 
that meets the demand that's out there for citizens who are 
requesting police services.
    Mr. Biggs. Thank you.
    The Chair recognizes the Ranking Member, Ms. Jackson Lee.
    Ms. Jackson Lee. Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
    Let me first ask to put into the record the information 
about Washington being No. 1 in police per capita and the 
amount of money spent on crime.
    Mr. Biggs. Without objection.
    Ms. Jackson Lee. Thank you. Let me again--the stories were 
horrific. Crime victims--there should be zero tolerance and we 
all have to come together to make that happen.
    To Mr. Jablonski, to watch your little one--I know what 
that means to you. Thank you for your courage to come here 
today, sir. Thank you.
    Mr. Jablonski. Thank you, Congresswoman.
    Ms. Jackson Lee. Thank you. Let me try to get our hands 
around what we need to do. So, let me just get right to the 
heart of things, Ms. Appiah. What is the District doing to 
address violent crime? What is the District doing to address 
carjackings?
    Deputy Mayor Appiah. Sure. So, we describe the ecosystem 
because that's important. So, the District's making investments 
in all those spaces. The first is prevention. I agree with Mr. 
Pemberton that obviously enforcement is important, but to us--I 
have a public health background. Preventing crime is the best 
way to have less victims.
    So, there's been significant investments made in violence 
intervention and prevention, which we're grateful for the 
investments that were made through the American Rescue Plan Act 
which allowed us to put funds into violence interruption 
services and also victim services, a host that--the District 
grants $100 million worth of grants to providers, community-
based--
    Ms. Jackson Lee. You are not thwarting or stopping your 
police from engaging right on the streets arresting and 
bringing in carjackers?
    Deputy Mayor Appiah. That's correct. There are a number of 
policing strategies. All these have to work together.
    Ms. Jackson Lee. You are respecting the police, for them to 
do their job?
    Deputy Mayor Appiah. Mayor Bowser is--that you will find no 
mayor who is more supportive of the police than Mayor Bowser.
    Ms. Jackson Lee. What is the greatest challenge for the 
District's ability to respond to violent crime?
    Deputy Mayor Appiah. One of them is the complexities of our 
Federal-local system. You heard Mr. Abt describe information 
sharing. We know that even law enforcement strategies like 
focused deterrence or otherwise work when the entities all work 
together. We don't have one Governor--
    [Simultaneous speaking.]
    Ms. Jackson Lee. --is making note of that right now. There 
is no reason there should not be information sharing.
    Let me move quickly, if you don't mind.
    Deputy Mayor Appiah. Yes.
    Ms. Jackson Lee. I have got a short period of time. You 
enacted emergency legislation in July that changed the 
landscape of prosecutions. Do you want to just let us know how 
that is happening? Is that the same legislation as the 
Prioritizing Public Safety Emergency Amendment?
    Deputy Mayor Appiah. That's correct.
    Ms. Jackson Lee. So, I want to hold up that this is the 
law.
    Deputy Mayor Appiah. Correct.
    Ms. Jackson Lee. Can you just give us a snippet? I have got 
so many other questions I want to ask Mr. Abt.
    Deputy Mayor Appiah. Yes, it increases the presumption for 
pretrial detention which has led to more people being held 
pretrial. It increases penalty for things like unlawful 
discharge of a fireman. There are things related to pretrial 
detention for juveniles, which we know is an issue. There also 
was a companion bill that clarifies the ability of law 
enforcement to pursue in a manner consistent with safe policy.
    Ms. Jackson Lee. OK. Does the declination rate--is that 
coming down? Because the U.S. Attorney said it is.
    Deputy Mayor Appiah. I can't speak on behalf of the U.S. 
Attorney, but we are seeing more holds for those with gun 
crimes. So, we can make a--I can't say causation, but certainly 
a correlation.
    Ms. Jackson Lee. So, you have strong gun laws, but your 
surrounding neighbors don't. So, the issue is you don't block 
any citizen from having their guns--
    Deputy Mayor Appiah. That's correct.
    Ms. Jackson Lee. --legal guns, but what you are seeing is 
gun trafficking on the street?
    Deputy Mayor Appiah. That's correct.
    Ms. Jackson Lee. How does that happen?
    Deputy Mayor Appiah. So, we have significant gun 
trafficking from our neighbors in Virginia, Maryland, North 
Carolina, South Carolina, and Georgia. That is where the 
illegal flow of guns into the District is. So, working with our 
partners like ATF and FBI and our Federal partners is deeply 
important to help us stop gun trafficking and the flow of--
    [Simultaneous speaking.]
    Ms. Jackson Lee. So, you are committed to fighting gun 
trafficking and carjacking, things that and robberies on the 
street?
    Deputy Mayor Appiah. Absolutely. Without equivocation we 
are.
    Ms. Jackson Lee. So, the Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearm, and 
FBI, for those acronyms may not be familiar, they can do a lot 
more or you can work a lot more with them, is that my 
understanding?
    Deputy Mayor Appiah. That's correct.
    Ms. Jackson Lee. Mr. Abt, let me first, very quickly 
indicate that correction of Mr. Stimson. There is no mandatory 
minimum for gun possession in the Federal laws, but there is a 
mandatory minimum in D.C. They are not weak on crime in many 
instances, but they do have to help their victims and stop 
that. Mr. Abt, why don't you explore your COVID pandemic 
concept? Because I agree with you. Though you say that crime 
here is huge, but just explain that concept about the surge of 
crime across America.
    Mr. Abt. Sure.
    Mr. Biggs. The gentlewoman's time is expired, but you can 
answer the question, Mr. Abt.
    Ms. Jackson Lee. You may answer the question. Thank you.
    Mr. Abt. Sure. So, in 2020 we had one of the largest 
single-year increases in homicide across the country that we've 
ever seen, approximately 28 percent. As I said, no jurisdiction 
or almost no jurisdiction was spared regardless of political 
affiliation.
    Violent crime rose again the following year. It was flat in 
1922 and is now slightly coming down, thankfully. As I said, 
most experts agree on generally three reasons for this surge in 
crime, although Mr. Stimson is correct that there was a surge 
in crime in 2016 as well. Focusing on this 2020 surge, it was 
the pandemic itself, unrest following the murder of George 
Floyd, and this massive surge in gun sales. All three of these 
things together contributed to pushing the rates higher. As we 
get farther from that they seem to be decreasing.
    Ms. Jackson Lee. Thank you very much.
    Mr. Biggs. Thank you.
    Ms. Jackson Lee. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
    Thank you to the witnesses. Thank you for your presence 
here.
    Mr. Biggs. Thank you. The gentlelady's time has expired.
    The Chair recognizes the gentleman from Wisconsin, Mr. 
Tiffany.
    Mr. Tiffany. Mr. Abt, are you saying the lockdowns did not 
work?
    Mr. Abt. I'm not sure--
    Mr. Tiffany. The lockdowns led to higher crime is what I 
heard you say.
    Mr. Abt. No, I certainly did not say that, Congressman. Can 
you repeat the question?
    Mr. Tiffany. You said during the COVID lockdowns that crime 
went up in 2020.
    Mr. Abt. During the pandemic they went up, yes.
    Mr. Tiffany. So, the American people were locked down. I 
came here in a--I was sworn in here on May 19, 2020. I couldn't 
believe I could drive from the suburbs of Virginia to this 
location right here in about five minutes. Nobody was there. 
You said violent crime went up. So, didn't the COVID 
lockdowns--weren't they part of the contributing factor?
    Mr. Abt. I think that's an inappropriate connection between 
these two. I can't speak to that.
    Mr. Tiffany. Deputy mayor, D.C. Council Chair Phil 
Mendelson said, ``there is not a crime crisis in Washington, 
DC.'' Do you agree with him?
    Deputy Mayor Appiah. Oxford defines a crisis as a time of 
intense difficulty, trouble, or danger, and so I would say that 
we find ourselves in an intense time of trouble or danger. So, 
I would say there is a crisis anytime someone's a victim of 
crime in the District regardless of the number.
    Mr. Tiffany. Mr. Chair, it sounds like we have identified 
part of the problem here with the D.C. Council when somebody 
will not acknowledge that there is a crisis and--by the very 
definition. As the Deputy Mayor said, ``there is a crisis.''
    Mr. Pemberton, so we are hearing about guns are the problem 
and guns coming from other States are the problem. Are crimes 
being prosecuted to their fullest that include guns here in 
D.C.? Are the judges giving the fullest sentences they can with 
gun crimes?
    Mr. Pemberton. No, absolutely not. So, some of the rhetoric 
that we hear around crime in the District is that it comes from 
illegal guns and that we have to focus on illegal guns, and 
that if we find a way to get illegal guns out of the hands of 
criminals, crime will come down. That's not necessarily wrong. 
Our officers for our unit, I think last year we arrested about 
3,100 people for possession of an illegal firearm.
    The problem is that even when we're able to get those cases 
papered and prosecuted and then a conviction, the average 
sentence that judges are handing out right now for that penalty 
is six months supervised release, which is zero jail time. That 
is the going rate, is what we say, for people who are in 
possession of illegal guns.
    Mr. Tiffany. Repeat that. Six months?
    Mr. Pemberton. Six months of supervised probation. So, that 
would be someone who's convicted of being in possession of an 
illegal firearm in the District of Columbia. The maximum 
penalty is five years under the D.C. Code, however the 
penalties that D.C. Superior Court Judges are handing out 
regularly are more along the lines of probation only.
    Mr. Tiffany. Probation only for a gun crime?
    Mr. Pemberton. That's right. Just to make a finer point on 
this, it doesn't seem like the city takes those crimes as 
seriously as they suggest given the fact that the courts are 
not penalizing people who are found convicted of those crimes.
    Mr. Tiffany. Was that your experience, Mr. Jablonski?
    Mr. Jablonski. Absolutely. If I didn't make that victim 
impact statement to the defense's attorney, the defendant's 
attorney would have been asking for divergence. I was told by 
the DAs afterwards that they were glad that I came because most 
likely he would have received divergence.
    Mr. Tiffany. Is Victim Services doing their job in D.C.?
    Mr. Jablonski. I mean they were very nice and they were 
helpful, but there's really--the only thing I wanted is I 
wanted to see real justice. I wanted to see something that 
showed me that they took into account what happened to me and 
my family. What I saw wasn't.
    Mr. Tiffany. Mr. Sobolevsky, is Victim Services doing their 
job in Washington, DC?
    Mr. Sobolevsky. I'd say they're doing their job. It's hard 
to say that the police, the prosecutors, and the judges are 
doing their jobs. Maybe the police are out there making 
arrests. Prosecutors aren't prosecuting. What going on there? 
Judges, they're letting criminals out in the street. My guy was 
given 1 year in jail. What did he do within weeks on release? 
My father-in-law was murdered by a guy with a rap sheet from 
1971. Why are they on the streets?
    Mr. Tiffany. Mr. Pemberton, have you lost officers to other 
jurisdictions around this region?
    Mr. Pemberton. Absolutely. Yes, a lot of the officers to 
leave have been going to neighboring jurisdictions. 
Particularly, what's interesting is Northern Virginia takes a 
lot of our members.
    Mr. Tiffany. I am going to close with this, Mr. Chair: I am 
going to make the case once again, I want this Committee to 
come Milwaukee, Wisconsin, to hear the story here. We have 
heard it in New York City, Chicago, and now in Washington, DC. 
I urge this Committee and the Chair to schedule a hearing in 
Milwaukee, Wisconsin, where the District attorney said will I 
divert some who will go onto kill someone? Absolutely. That is 
the problem here in the United States of America, is a soft on 
crime attitude.
    Mr. Biggs. The gentleman's time has expired.
    The Chair recognizes the gentlelady from Georgia, Ms. 
McBath.
    Ms. McBath. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
    Thank you also, Ranking Member Sheila Jackson Lee. Thank 
you for our witnesses today and for all of you that are 
witnesses that have suffered these horrific tragedies. You 
continue to be inflicted with this trauma every single day. I 
am so, so very sorry.
    I sit before you today as a mother who has suffered as a 
victim of gun violence. I am here because of an epidemic that 
has unequivocally and completely just played our country--
plagued our country for just too long.
    I have dedicated my time while I have been here in Congress 
to reducing gun violence and advocating for commonsense gun 
laws to keep our neighborhoods, to keep our families safe, to 
keep you safe. Regardless of the city that you call home or the 
person representing you in public office, one fact remains 
true: We need comprehensive commonsense gun laws to end the 
violence that threatens the American people.
    As Members of Congress we are tasked with making a genuine 
difference in this country and taking steps to reduce violence 
by enacting Federal gun laws that keep our families and our 
children safe. This Committee along has numerous bills that 
will reduce violent crimes in D.C., and across our country once 
they are implemented.
    We made a historic step in the right direction last 
Congress with the passage of the bipartisan Safer Communities 
Act which invests $750 million into extreme risk protection 
orders to improve crisis intervention and empower our law 
enforcement and loved ones. It also invests $250 million in 
community-based violence intervention programs to support our 
communities that are crying out for our help. The successful 
passage of the bipartisan Safer Communities Act is a testament 
to our ability to unify in Congress and continue to fulfill our 
promise to fight for the safety of every American.
    These are our communities, our children, our loved ones, 
and gun violence should be a deep personal concern for each and 
every one of us here today, including all my colleagues in this 
Committee. Following this hearing I would urge that all my 
colleagues on both sides of the aisle to turn their concerns 
about violence into action. Continue the fight against gun 
violence with me and join on my Federal Extreme Risk Protection 
Order Act of 2023 so that we can link our actions into words.
    Empower loved ones, those who seek the warning signs of 
being in crisis first and law enforcement. Help them to help 
keep guns away from those who are a danger or at risk to 
themselves or hurting others. What truly matters is not which 
side of the aisle that we all fall on, but the countless lives 
that are lost in this country to unnecessary gun violence every 
single day. No mother, no parent, no American should ever 
experience the pain of losing a loved one. We must work 
together to end the epidemic of gun violence.
    Now, investments are being made by the bipartisan Safer 
Communities Act that are aimed at prevention. Deputy Mayor 
Appiah and Mr. Abt, as we look forward to ways to reduce 
violent crime across the country, how will a Federal bill to 
authorize Federal extreme risk protection orders contribute to 
reducing violent crimes across our country?
    Mr. Abt. Thank you for the question. I think if you look at 
the research that's been assembled by the RAND Institute, 
there's good research showing that extreme risk protection 
orders can save lives. They can particularly save lives in 
terms of avoiding homicides and there's some evidence that they 
can avoid homicides as well. So, I think that those laws and 
the support of--that Congress made for those laws in terms of 
enacting them in the best ways is a very strong step forward.
    Deputy Mayor Appiah. I would say the same thing as Mr. Abt. 
The district actually currently--I am Co-Chairing with our D.C. 
Council, a working group on how we can better utilize resources 
around extreme risk protection orders to keep district 
residents more safe.
    Ms. McBath. Well, thank you so much. I know that I have 
crisscrossed this country fighting to change our dangerous gun 
laws and I know that there are many in this room that have also 
worked as activists on the ground in the movement to do the 
same. No one in this country deserves ever to be affected by 
this violent culture that we are living in. I promise you that 
my colleagues and I will do whatever we can to keep you safe.
    Mr. Biggs. The gentlelady's time has expired.
    The Chair recognizes the gentlelady from Florida, Ms. Lee.
    Ms. Lee. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
    Earlier this morning this hearing was referred to as a 
political stunt. I would like to begin by asking us all to 
remember that we are joined here today by the men and women of 
law enforcement, first responders, and the victims of violent 
crimes. They deserve our serious consideration of this gravely 
important issue.
    So, let's start with reality. The number of law enforcement 
officers assigned to a region per capita won't stop crime when 
law enforcement officers are prevented from doing their jobs by 
bad law. The number of prosecutors in a community will not stop 
crime when they do not bring cases and they do not enforce the 
law. It isn't enough to have judges on the bench when judges 
won't follow the rules and won't enforce the laws.
    We owe a responsibility to the citizens of Washington, DC, 
and the visitors from around the world who come to our Nation's 
Capital to keep them safe, and all too often they are here, and 
they are the victims of violent crime. They are being 
carjacked, they are being assaulted, they are being shot in the 
street. We must face the reality of the crime epidemic in 
Washington, DC, and do more.
    The reason that we are here is plain and it is obvious. It 
is the reckless and irresponsible rhetoric and failed policies 
of the Democrat Party and the Biden Administration that has 
emboldened criminals in cities across America. We owe the 
residents here and the visitors to our capital so much more.
    As a former Federal prosecutor and judge I will tell you 
this: There is one thing that reliably keeps a violent predator 
from recidivating, and it is called prison. Do some offenders 
deserve second chances? Absolutely. Do murderers, sex 
offenders, and rapists need to be out on bond? Do they need 
wrap-around services? Do those who are out on conditions of 
bond, who violate them deserve another chance? No. They deserve 
to be in custody, and they need to remain in custody for the 
safety of the citizens of this community.
    We need to support the men and women of law enforcement. We 
need prosecutors who will enforce the laws. We need judges who 
will force--follow the laws and enforce the rules. It is that 
simple. What we see here today, the testimony that we have 
heard today is the entirely predictable outcome of the reckless 
and irresponsible rhetoric and policies of the Democrat Party 
who are undermining the men and women of law enforcement and 
the rule of law in America.
    Mr. Stimson, I would like to start with you. In your prior 
testimony you referenced juvenile offenders specifically. I 
would like to explore the effects that you believe policies 
related to juvenile offenders are having on the crime problem 
in D.C., and how we could be doing more to ensure that this 
issue is under control.
    Mr. Stimson. Well, thank you for your question. I think we 
both agree as former prosecutors that we need a juvenile 
justice system. That is designed to help rehabilitate those 
people who make dumb mistakes when they're young. We believe 
most can be rehabilitated. When you do murder, multiple 
murders, rapes, carjackings--you heard the Chair mention the 
number of carjackings committed this year by juvenile 
offenders--and the No. 1 age is 15 here in the District who are 
doing armed carjackings.
    So, under Title 16, which is a local law here in the 
District, the U.S. Attorney's Office can take 16-17-year-olds 
and prosecute them as an adult. Many other jurisdictions don't 
have that type of shackles and they allow violent criminals who 
do murder, rape, robbery, and the rest of it and waive them to 
adult court, which is what should happen in this city because 
we have a juvenile violent crime problem.
    If I could just add, when I was talking about gun 
possessions and taking it to Federal court, I said felon in 
possession. As you know as a former Federal prosecutor felon in 
possession under 1922(g)-922(g) is a mandatory minimum. What 
happens in this city is that they charge him with--they charge 
them with--in Superior Court they charge them with carrying a 
pistol without a license, felon in possession, unregistered 
firearm, and unregistered ammunition. They deal away the felon 
in possession in Superior Court. They plea to carrying a pistol 
without a license. As Pemberton said, ``they get a slap on the 
wrist.''
    So, when I was a criminal defense attorney I wanted my 
client to get the best deal. I want them to be tried in 
Superior Court here in the District of Columbia, not Federal 
District Court regardless of what the sentence is because 
they're going to get a hard sentence in Federal Court.
    Ms. Lee. Should those juvenile--
    Mr. Biggs. I'm sorry. The gentlelady's time has expired.
    Ms. Lee. Oh, thank you, Mr. Chair.
    Mr. Biggs. Thank you. Thank you.
    The Chair recognizes the gentlelady from Pennsylvania, Ms. 
Dean.
    Ms. Dean. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
    I thank the Ranking Member Lee also for putting forward 
this hearing today.
    Thank you all for your testimony. For those who are the 
victims of violent crime; I am thinking particularly of your 
little boy, my heart goes out to all of you, and I thank you 
for telling your stories because your stories are in search of 
solutions. That is what this Committee ought to be about, 
searching for solutions, not finger pointing at a single DA, or 
let's just say it is the entire Biden Administration's fault 
that there are violent crimes in this country. We are more 
serious than that. We must be more serious than that.
    I know that I have cared about the issue of gun violence my 
entire adult life and I am here in Congress. It is one of my 
most important passions, to make a difference. That is why I am 
very proud that last year we did the Safer Communities Act. I 
look forward to learning how violence interruption grants and 
how others are making a difference. It is the first time in 30 
years that Congress did anything around gun violence. So, join 
us in these solutions is what I suggest to every Member of 
Congress.
    It is distressing to hear of violence in here in D.C., 
which has become my second home, but it is not unique to here. 
I am from the Philadelphia suburbs. Philadelphia is the city I 
call home. It is not unique to here. It is sadly a nationwide 
epidemic. One of the big issues is the number of guns on the 
street, and to your point, Mr. Stimson, the number of young 
people, children with illegal guns.
    So, Deputy Mayor Appiah, could you help me? How do the laws 
in and around D.C. affect guns in D.C.? Where are these guns 
coming from? Do we have gun manufacturers in D.C. that are 
selling guns?
    Deputy Mayor Appiah. No.
    Ms. Dean. OK. Where are the guns coming from?
    Deputy Mayor Appiah. As I said, so our neighbors to the 
North in Maryland and to the South in what's the I-95 corridor 
of Virginia, North Carolina, South Carolina, and Georgia are 
the primary locations where illegal guns are coming in. So, 
there is no question the District has strict gun laws, but 
those around us do have more lax gun laws, which have allowed 
the District to be flooded with unlawful guns from those 
locations.
    Ms. Dean. Exactly. Flooded. We are seeing that throughout 
this country where guns are coming in from other jurisdictions 
with more lax gun laws.
    Before I yield to my good friend, I wanted to just note 
something: Please be aware, to those of you who are here today, 
that Members on the other side of this aisle have argued in 
hearing after markup after hearing of defunding ATF, defunding 
the FBI. That is not a solution. That is actually contributing 
to the problem. We have got to stop demonizing.
    We have to lift up those who are working for us to make us 
safer. With that, I yield to my good friend, the gentleman from 
Maryland, Mr. Ivey.
    Mr. Ivey. I thank the gentlelady.
    I thank you, Mr. Chair, for letting me quasi wave in today. 
I appreciate the chance to be here.
    I don't have enough time to cover all the things I want to 
chat about, but I do want to note that yes, I was a former 
Assistant U.S. Attorney. I was here from 1990-1994, which was 
the height of the crack wars. D.C. averaged 450-500 murders per 
year during that timeframe. In fact, carjacking I think was 
invented during that timeframe. So, I understand violent crime. 
I also understand that it went down pretty dramatically, and 
not for the reasons that have presented here today. So, I do 
want to emphasize that we want to have a serious approach to 
addressing these. Mr. Abt is someone, actually, I am working 
with right now to try and bring to Prince George's County to 
address some of these issues.
    Smart on crime is more effective than tough on crime. I do 
want to challenge the suggestion, yes, Ms. Lee I think was 
saying, we just need to be tougher, tougher, and tougher. We 
saw that movie. That was 2.2 million people incarcerated from 
incarcerating people for everything. That was marijuana on up.
    I do want to say yes, we want to be tough on serious 
violent offenders. After I left the U.S. Attorney's Office I 
became the State's Attorney in Prince George's County, which is 
the border or D.C. We are still working to try and coordinate 
things with D.C. as we bring this down.
    Guns are a key piece. I note that a lot of the crimes that 
have been discussed today involve guns. Most of the gun cases 
that are involved are the ones we see on the news at night. 
Ghost guns for example. Ms. Appiah talked about guns coming 
from out of State. I can't get any Republican cosponsors for 
any of the legislation we proposed to try and address some of 
these problems, including ghost guns, which I think everybody 
will agree is a problem. They don't even have to go to Virginia 
to get a ghost gun. They can just email it into the--email the 
request and have it mailed into the District.
    So, I am sorry I won't have a chance to discuss the 
policing issues and the sentencing issues because I think--I 
appreciate the work you all do, but there are major differences 
I think between the solutions you are offering today and the 
best approaches to addressing the crime problem. So, I 
apologize for running over and hopefully I have a chance to do 
more later in the hearing.
    Mr. Biggs. The gentleman's time has expired.
    The Chair recognizes the gentleman from Georgia, Mr. 
Johnson.
    Mr. Johnson of Georgia. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
    Mr. Sobolevsky, your experience is one that is a fear that 
many people walk around with daily and hope that they will not 
have to be the actual victim. So, I appreciate you coming and 
sharing your harrowing experience. I am sorry that happened to 
you and that the person who did that was insufficiently 
punished.
    Mr. Jablonski, same sentiment for you. I thought about what 
I would do if I had been in the restaurant, just me and you and 
that guy, and what I would have done. Would I have come to your 
assistance? Would I have been as brave as your little son to 
stand there? He couldn't do anything. I wondered what I would 
do in that situation. I am glad that you made it out of there, 
and I am sorry that you had to go through that.
    Ms. Richards, a public safety employee, I am very sorry 
that you don't feel safe doing your job, which is to help 
people. Very sorry about that.
    Detective Pemberton, thank you for your service. I 
understand that law enforcement is a difficult occupation. A 
lot of people decide to leave a lower-paying Police Department 
such as Washington, DC, and go to one--after they get their 
training and some experience go to another department where the 
stress levels are less, and the pay is greater. So, I am not 
sure that I agree with the inference that what the civilian 
authority has enacted would cause a significant number of law 
enforcement officers to just resign and turn in their badge and 
do away with law enforcement. I just don't know if that is the 
way that we should be thinking about things.
    Mr. Abt, you are the founding Director of the Center for 
the Study and Practice of Violent Reduction, or Violence 
Reduction and an Associate Research Professor and Senior Fellow 
at the Council on Criminal Justice. So, you have studied these 
issues. From your research what are the specific drivers of 
violence at the macro and the micro level and what has your 
research shown about how evidence-based prevention and 
intervention strategies can work alongside law enforcement 
strategies to reduce violent crime?
    Mr. Abt. Sure. At the broadest macro level I think that 
it's a combination of the factors that are pushing people 
toward crime and the factors that are pushing people against. 
So, broadly speaking factors like concentrated poverty push 
people toward crime. Then, the society's response to those 
crimes is important as well.
    So, thinking broadly about those is important.
    On the micro level I think the evidence shows that what's 
most likely, what's the strongest predictor of violence is 
previous violent behavior and previous exposure to violence. 
So, that's something that I think we can all agree that we need 
to focus on and take very seriously.
    Mr. Johnson of Georgia. Thank you.
    Deputy Mayor Appiah, do you have anything to add to that?
    Deputy Mayor Appiah. Sure. One of the things that we 
believe in the District is we need to address both what is 
acutely happening through enforcement or otherwise, but also 
root causes, which is why the District's invested--the mayor 
has invested $100 million this year in affordable housing, an 
additional $18 million in access to mental health, untold 
amounts in recreation programs for young people, because I was 
in the juvenile justice system in this district working for now 
11 years. So, we know interventions with our young people 
through recreation, through education, through mental health 
services and supports--those are all prevention.
    Mr. Johnson of Georgia. Yes, certainly. Things for young 
people to do after school and during the summer are very 
important, but I will close by just noting that 21 Members of 
the--21 Republicans--when it came time to award the 
Congressional Gold Medal to police officers, Capitol Hill 
police officers, Washington, DC, police officers who came to 
the aid of Capitol Hill police officers on January 6th, 21 
Republicans, including my friend the Chair of this very 
Committee, voted to oppose that. That has to be something that 
causes Detective Pemberton a loss of morale and maybe some 
decision to resign. With that I yield back.
    Mr. Biggs. The gentleman's time has expired.
    You may comment on that if you wish, Mr. Pemberton.
    Mr. Pemberton. Yes. Thank you, sir. I mean, we're talking 
about police response particularly on that day. I think our 
members were happy to be respond to the call for service.
    Mr. Johnson of Georgia. Thank you so much. Did you--were 
you--
    Mr. Biggs. He cut you off. I extended the time for you to 
answer. Were you able to respond?
    Mr. Pemberton. I'll just continue, Mr. Chair. I think that 
we understand that's our duty regardless of whether it's a call 
for a stolen bicycle or whether there's a giant riot that 
occurs anywhere in the city. Our members are going to show up 
and we're going to make sure that we bring that situation back 
under control. We were happy to be there that day and we were 
happy to be able to render that situation safe.
    Mr. Johnson of Georgia. You deserve a gold medal also. 
Thank you.
    Mr. Biggs. Thank you, Detective Pemberton.
    So, I recognize myself for my five minutes.
    Ms. Richards, Mr. Sobolevsky, and Mr. Jablonski, thank you 
for being here. Your testimony is invaluable. I think, Mr. 
Sobolevsky and Mr. Jablonski, you addressed interaction with 
what I would call the Victims' Rights Unit of the D.C. 
government. I think that might have worked out. I didn't get a 
chance to--Ms. Richards, were you able to encounter Victims' 
Rights Units?
    Ms. Richards. No, sir.
    Mr. Biggs. No one from the prosecutor's office of social 
services came through for victims' rights to talk with you?
    Ms. Richards. No.
    Mr. Biggs. OK. Mr. Sobolevsky and Mr. Jablonski?
    Mr. Sobolevsky. Yes, that is correct, they reached out to 
me. They were nice and it's nice to have them, but it's no 
compensation for what police should be doing, what prosecutors 
should be doing, and what judges should be doing.
    Mr. Biggs. Right.
    Mr. Sobolevsky. There shouldn't need to be this Victims' 
Rights Unit, or whatever it is. It should be elected officials 
or who's ever in the position of power enforcing laws that are 
already on the book.
    Mr. Biggs. Right. Mr. Jablonski?
    Mr. Jablonski. Yes, the lady that reached out to me was 
very nice and she offered services for mental health for me and 
my son, but when I explained that I was upset with the plea and 
everything else, she was like I can listen, but I can't do 
anything.
    Mr. Biggs. Yes, I guess that gets to the point here is--
looks like the--except for in your case, Ms. Richards; you 
didn't have any interaction, but the real nub is this the 
prosecutorial arm. Sounds like it failed our three witnesses 
here today.
    Mr. Sobolevsky?
    Mr. Sobolevsky. In part it's on the prosecutor, but it's 
also on the judges.
    Mr. Biggs. Right.
    Mr. Sobolevsky. While it's happening here in D.C., it's 
nationwide and it's a problem that scares me for someone who 
just got married. I want to bring kids into this society, and 
it scares me that we have kind of a prosecutorial rot and a 
judicial rot in our system. There needs to be accountability in 
that.
    Mr. Biggs. Thank you. So, I am going to direct the next 
question to you, Detective Pemberton. You listed nine laws 
passed by the D.C. Council that have an impact on enforcement 
by the police and one of those seemed to have included an 
elimination of qualified immunity. Is that accurate?
    Mr. Pemberton. Well, I'm happy to say that this bill 
actually was not passed.
    Mr. Biggs. OK.
    Mr. Pemberton. It was introduced and debated, but 
thankfully that bill never made it to fruition. It was included 
in the list because it goes to the sort of rhetoric that the 
council was engaged in and how the message that was sent to 
police officers about how they felt about them doing their 
jobs.
    Mr. Biggs. Right. That rhetoric and with the threat of 
taking--removing qualified immunity, that has a suppressive 
effect on actual policing in my experience and talking to 
officers from many jurisdictions. Officers become more 
cautious. Because even if you--as you said, even if you follow 
the procedures, policies, constitution, statutes, you are at 
personal risk for liability. Is that accurate?
    Mr. Pemberton. Yes, that's right. I think a big misnomer 
here about qualified immunity is that it applies to criminal 
charges. It doesn't. Qualified immunity just allows citizens to 
sue police officers as individuals if it were to be removed. 
So, the suggestion there is that if a police officer were to go 
out and make a mistake, then a citizen could sue them for their 
own personal earnings, their savings, their home, and their 
college savings. That obviously creates a chilling effect on 
doing productive and proactive police work.
    Mr. Biggs. Thank you. Mr. Stimson, I want to ask you a 
question related to your comments about the OAG and--should be 
eliminated and juvenile cases should be referred to U.S. 
District Attorney for D.C. The reason I ask that question is 
because I am incredibly dissatisfied with the performance of 
Mr. Graves, who is the U.S. Attorney for D.C. Do you trust him 
if he were given now jurisdiction or broader jurisdiction over 
juvenile cases that he would actually enforce those? Would he 
prosecute those?
    Mr. Stimson. Well first, Mr. Chair, I'm not proposing to 
eliminate the OAG. They're the city attorney and they do a good 
job handling civil and other matters--
    Mr. Biggs. Moving--
    Mr. Stimson. --moving the criminal function into the U.S. 
Attorneys by expanding the Superior Court division and adding a 
juvenile and traffic section, like most city DA Offices have. 
Look, there are good prosecutors in my old office. I'm 
disgusted in what happened in these three cases here. I'm 
ashamed actually of what happened in those cases. That wouldn't 
happen at a good DA Office. Just wouldn't.
    Sunlight's a good disinfectant according to your colleague, 
the Ranking Member. She's had a very productive conversation 
with Mr. Graves. They said the declination rate is coming down. 
I hope that's correct. I look forward to seeing the numbers 
which are coming out soon.
    The OAG holds onto as many juvenile cases as they can. So, 
I think if you offer a solution do what most big city DA 
Offices do: Put the juvenile section in the DA's Office and 
then exercise oversight over that office in an appropriate way 
so that--and change the law so that violent juvenile offenders 
can be handled in the adult court.
    Mr. Biggs. My time has expired. I regret that terribly 
because there is so much more to talk about with you, but with 
that this will conclude our--
    Ms. Jackson Lee. I have submissions for the record.
    Mr. Biggs. We have a submission for the record by Ms. 
Jackson Lee.
    Ms. Jackson Lee. Thank you. I have an article dated March 
13, 2023, that indicates cases were dropped because of 
incorrect information being given to the U.S. Attorney and it 
was agreed to by then Police Chief Robert Contee, who indicated 
that we must have complete and good information to come in for 
cases to be prosecuted.
    Then, I want to put into the record the response to Mr. 
Stimson. There is no mandatory minimum penalty--
    Mr. Biggs. You cannot put into the record a response, but 
you can put into the record the actual U.S. Code, if you would 
like.
    Ms. Jackson Lee. Well, then I will. There is no mandatory 
minimum penalty for 18 U.S.C. 922(g), felony in possession of a 
firearm. There is one for in possession of a firearm in the 
committing of a crime.
    Ms. Jackson Lee. My statement, I am going to put that into 
the record unanimous consent.
    Ms. Jackson Lee. I am just going to mention, not put in the 
record at this time, Mr. Chair--I think--
    Mr. Biggs. No, you can't mention.
    Ms. Jackson Lee. --the importance of the Personal Integrity 
Act.
    [Simultaneous speaking.]
    Mr. Biggs. You can't filibuster here. No.
    Ms. Jackson Lee. Thank you. I yield back. Thank you for 
your courtesy.
    Mr. Biggs. You bet.
    Ms. Jackson Lee. To the--
    Mr. Biggs. Those will be admitted without objection.
    Ms. Jackson Lee. Thank you. Can I thank the witnesses, as I 
know you will, and express my deep concern for the victims and 
I hope they have gained--whatever we say today, I hope you gain 
that we want to work together to stop violent crime and to stop 
more victims from accruing. Thank you to the District of 
Columbia. I yield back.
    Mr. Biggs. Thank you.
    I do thank our witnesses for testifying today, for coming 
here. I know that it was very difficult perhaps, I would 
imagine, for our victims who are witnesses. Appreciate your 
testimony and express my deepest regrets that you encountered 
what you encountered as well as the time it will take to fully 
heal from that. So, may God bless you guys to feel his peace.
    Without objection, all Members will have five legislative 
days to submit additional written questions for the witnesses 
or additional materials for the record.
    Without objection, the hearing is adjourned.
    Before I say that--it is too late now; I already said it, 
but I also want to get into the record my gratitude to our 
staff, and I know that the Ranking Member would extend her 
gratitude to her staff as well, for preparing for this hearing 
today.
    With that, we are adjourned.
    [Whereupon, at 12:12 p.m., the Subcommittee was adjourned.]

    The record for this hearing by the Members of the 
Subcommittee on Crime and Federal Government Surveillance is 
available at: https://docs.house.gov/Committee/Calendar/
ByEvent.aspx?Event ID=116457.

                                 [all]