[House Hearing, 118 Congress]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]




                       COMPETENCIES OVER DEGREES:
                    TRANSITIONING TO A SKILLS-BASED
                                ECONOMY

=======================================================================

                                HEARING

                               Before The

                     COMMITTEE ON EDUCATION AND THE  
                                WORKFORCE 
                     U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

                    ONE HUNDRED EIGHTEENTH CONGRESS

                             FIRST SESSION

                               __________



             HEARING HELD IN WASHINGTON, DC, JUNE 22, 2023

                               __________

                           Serial No. 118-16

                               __________

  Printed for the use of the Committee on Education and the Workforce 
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
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        Available via: edworkforce.house.gov or www.govinfo.gov 
        
        
        
                                 ______ 
                                 
                   U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE 

53-757 PDF                 WASHINGTON : 2024 


















                COMMITTEE ON EDUCATION AND THE WORKFORCE

               VIRGINIA FOXX, North Carolina, Chairwoman

JOE WILSON, South Carolina           ROBERT C. ``BOBBY'' SCOTT, 
GLENN THOMPSON, Pennsylvania             Virginia,
TIM WALBERG, Michigan                  Ranking Member
GLENN GROTHMAN, Wisconsin            RAUL M. GRIJALVA, Arizona
ELISE M. STEFANIK, New York          JOE COURTNEY, Connecticut
RICK W. ALLEN, Georgia               GREGORIO KILILI CAMACHO SABLAN,
JIM BANKS, Indiana                     Northern Mariana Islands
JAMES COMER, Kentucky                FREDERICA S. WILSON, Florida
LLOYD SMUCKER, Pennsylvania          SUZANNE BONAMICI, Oregon
BURGESS OWENS, Utah                  MARK TAKANO, California
BOB GOOD, Virginia                   ALMA S. ADAMS, North Carolina
LISA McCLAIN, Michigan               MARK DeSAULNIER, California
MARY MILLER, Illinois                DONALD NORCROSS, New Jersey
MICHELLE STEEL, California           PRAMILA JAYAPAL, Washington
RON ESTES, Kansas                    SUSAN WILD, Pennsylvania
JULIA LETLOW, Louisiana              LUCY McBATH, Georgia
KEVIN KILEY, California              JAHANA HAYES, Connecticut
AARON BEAN, Florida                  ILHAN OMAR, Minnesota
ERIC BURLISON, Missouri              HALEY M. STEVENS, Michigan
NATHANIEL MORAN, Texas               TERESA LEGER FERNANDEZ, New Mexico
JOHN JAMES, Michigan                 KATHY E. MANNING, North Carolina
LORI CHAVEZ-DeREMER, Oregon          FRANK J. MRVAN, Indiana
BRANDON WILLIAMS, New York           JAMAAL BOWMAN, New York
ERIN HOUCHIN, Indiana

                       Cyrus Artz, Staff Director
              Veronique Pluviose, Minority Staff Director
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                         C  O  N  T  E  N  T  S

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                                                                   Page

Hearing held on June 22, 2023....................................     1

                           OPENING STATEMENTS

    Foxx, Hon. Virginia, Chairwoman, Committee on Education and 
      the Workforce..............................................     1
        Prepared statement of....................................     4
    Scott, Robert C. ``Bobby'', Ranking Member, Committee on 
      Education and the Workforce................................     6
        Prepared statement of....................................     8

                               WITNESSES

    Kimbrough, Dr. Karin, Chief Economist, LinkedIn Corporation..    10
        Prepared statement of....................................    12
    Smith, Dr. Mark, Director, HR Thought Leadership, Society of 
      Human Resource Management, SHRM............................    18
        Prepared statement of....................................    20
    Debroy, Dr. Papia, Senior Vice President of Insights for 
      Opportunity@Work...........................................    26
        Prepared statement of....................................    28
    Healey, Mr. Dan, Head of People for Customer Success, Global 
      HR Management Team, SAP America, Inc.......................    37
        Prepared statement of....................................    39

                         ADDITIONAL SUBMISSIONS

    Chairwoman Foxx:
        Letter from Associated Builders and Contractors dated 
          June 26, 2023..........................................    88
        2023 LinkedIn Economic Graph Report......................    92

                        QUESTIONS FOR THE RECORD

    Response to questions submitted for the record by:
        Mr. Dan Healey...........................................   132
        Dr. Mark Smith...........................................   138
        Dr. Papia Debroy.........................................   142
        Dr. Karin Kimbrough......................................   147 


 
                       COMPETENCIES OVER DEGREES:  
                    TRANSITIONING TO A SKILLS-BASED 
                                ECONOMY 

                              ----------                              


                        Thursday, June 22, 2023

                  House of Representatives,
          Committee on Education and The Workforce,
                                                    Washington, DC.
    The committee met pursuant to notice, at 10:18 a.m. House 
Rayburn Office Building, Room 2175, Hon. Virginia Foxx, 
[Chairwoman of the Committee] presiding.
    Present: Representatives Foxx, Thompson, Walberg, Grothman, 
Stefanik, Allen, Banks, Owens, Good, Miller, Kiley, Bean, 
Burlison, Moran, Chavez-DeRemer, Williams, Scott, Courtney, 
Wilson, Bonamici, Takano, Adams, DeSaulnier, Norcross, McBath, 
Hayes, Stevens, Manning, and Bowman.
    Staff present: Cyrus Artz, Staff Director; Mindy Barry, 
General Counsel; Hans Bjontegard, Legislative Assistant; Cate 
Dillon, Director of Operations; Isabel Foster, Press Assistant; 
Daniel Fuenzalida, Staff Assistant; Sheila Havenner, Director 
of Information Technology; Meghan Heckelman, Intern; Claire 
Houchin, Intern; Amy Raaf Jones, Director of Education and 
Human Services Policy; Marek Laco, Professional Staff Member; 
Hannah Matesic, Deputy Staff Director; Audra McGeorge, 
Communications Director; Rebecca Powell, Staff Assistant; Kent 
Talbert, Investigative Counsel; Brad Thomas, Senior Education 
Policy Advisor; Ilana Brunner, Minority General Counsel; Scott 
Estrada, Minority Professional Staff; Gerardo Gutierrez, 
Minority Intern; Kristion Jackson, Minority Intern; Malak 
Kalasho, Minority Intern; Stephanie Lalle, Minority 
Communications Director; Angela Lopez-Albarran, Minority 
Intern; Raiyana Malone, Minority Press Secretary; Kevin 
McDermott, Minority Director of Labor Policy; Kota Mizutani, 
Minority Deputy Communications Director; Veronique Pluviose, 
Minority Staff Director; Jessica Schieder, Minority Economic 
Policy Advisor; Dhrtvan Sherman, Minority Staff Assistant; 
Banyon Vassar, Minority IT Administrator.
    Chairwoman Foxx. The Committee on Education and the 
Workforce will come to order. I know that a quorum is present 
with a lot of friendly conversation going on. Without 
objection, the Chair is authorized to call a recess at any 
time. Thank you everyone for joining us today for hearing 
entitled Competencies Over Degrees: Transitioning to a Skills-
Based Economy.
    I thank the witnesses for traveling from as far as 
California to testify on such an important issue. Our economy 
is rapidly changing, and there is an urgent need to match the 
competencies of our future workforce within demand jobs. 
Advancements in technology, industries and the global markets 
are reshaping the opportunities available in America's economy.
    Many employers are feeling the effects of America's 
economic growing pains as they struggle to access the skilled 
workforce needed to match the times. There is a growing 
recognition that the old ways of identifying talent are not 
working for today's economy.
    To address this issue job creators across the country are 
shifting to skills-based hiring to broaden the talent pipeline 
and fill in demand, good paying jobs. It is time we reassess 
the definition of success in our society. Despite nearly two-
thirds of Americans aged 25 and older not possessing a 
bachelor's degree, we have perpetuated the notion that such 
degrees are the only pathway to the middle class.
    It is essential that we acknowledge the immense potential 
within individuals that transcends any demographic boundaries. 
We need to speak honestly about the educational paths we offer, 
and give priority to skills acquisition whether through work 
experience, military service, community college, certificate 
programs or online learning.
    At its core skills-based hiring is based on the simple 
premise all learning should count. If a worker has the skills 
and competencies to do the job it should not matter how or 
where they obtain those skills. They should have the 
opportunity to compete for the job, by allowing all learning to 
be considered on a level playing field we can unlock the 
potential of the millions of Americans who gain skills through 
alternate routes.
    After all, supporting the multiple educational pathways 
that Americans are choosing will make a difference only if 
employers are willing to look beyond the bachelor's degree, and 
recognize talent wherever it exists. The good news is skills-
based hiring is gaining momentum as a solution to our workforce 
challenges. Increasing numbers of employers are removing degree 
requirements and instead focusing on specific skills and 
competencies needed for the job.
    This approach not only widens the talent pipeline but has 
also proven to be more effective in hiring and retaining a high 
performing workforce. President Trump led the way in reforming 
Federal hiring through executive action, emphasizing skills 
over degrees. Several states, including Colorado, Maryland, 
Utah, Pennsylvania, Alaska, North Carolina and New Jersey, 
South Dakota, Ohio, and Virginia have also eliminated degree 
requirements for most State government jobs.
    Employers are taking charge by creating their own pathways 
to identify and recruit skilled workers, including internships, 
apprenticeships, boot camps and on-the-job learning 
opportunities. These initiatives equip candidates with the 
exact skills required to excel in their roles.
    However, for our workforce system to align with the demands 
of a skills-based economy it needs significant updates. One 
challenge faced by employers is navigating the landscape of 
skills-based credentials. The increasing number of programs and 
opportunities emerging, consistent and transparent information 
about credentials and the competencies they indicate is vital.
    Information on credentials should be funded and accessed 
easily through the workforce system. In turn, employers would 
have a greater ability to gauge the skills a worker possesses 
and determine his or her ability to succeed on the job. The 
workforce system could also play a crucial role by providing 
support, and reworking job descriptions around the 
competencies, and utilizing competency-based assessments to 
verify the skills of job seekers.
    In order to help more employers, particularly small 
businesses, build their own pathways for workers to develop 
critical skills, the system must place a greater emphasis on 
employer led initiatives. Additionally, we must acknowledge 
that directly addressing the skills of prospective workers can 
be more difficult for employers from the legal and regulatory 
perspective, than simply relying on a bachelor's degree as a 
proxy for ability, despite the fact that degree requirements 
automatically exclude the vast majority of Americans.
    Greater clarity and technical assistance on the lawful use 
of assessments would help more job creators make the shift to 
skills-based hiring. In conclusion, our economy is undergoing 
significant changes, and it is imperative that we adapt. I look 
forward to facilitating that shift in a bipartisan effort with 
my colleagues, by reauthorizing the Workforce Innovation and 
Opportunity Act, WIOA. With key reforms to WIOA we can begin 
the bridge the skills gap in our Nation's workforce.
    Let us seize the opportunities presented by a skill-based 
economy where individual potential and competency are 
celebrated above all. With that, I look forward to the 
discussion today, and yield to the Ranking Member for his 
opening remarks.
    [The Statement of Chairwoman Foxx follows:]
    
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    Mr. Scott. Thank you, Dr. Foxx. Thanks to the leadership of 
President Biden and congressional Democrats, our economy is 
thriving. In the span of 29 months, President Biden has created 
more jobs than any previous President has created in a single 
48-month term.
    The past 2 years respectively, were the first and second 
largest job growth years in American history. That all happened 
while the President was improving the deficit situation that he 
inherited. As a result, we are not meeting today to discuss how 
to revive our economy, we are discussing strategies to continue 
to build the economy from the ground up and the middle out, 
address long-standing challenges in the labor market, and help 
find workers meaningful careers. For example, employers are 
continuing to look for skilled workers to fill the record 
number of new jobs. Over the years, far too many employers have 
fallen into the habit of requiring college degrees for jobs 
that do not necessarily require them.
    This approach dismisses qualified job applicants who are 
skilled, and able to work, but are not even eligible because 
they do not hold a college degree. Both employers and our 
economy are losing out on the roughly two-thirds of talented, 
working-age Americans who do not hold a 4-year degree.
    Moreover, requiring a college education contributes to 
economic disparities for people who are disproportionately 
facing barriers to completing higher education. Employees are 
increasingly evaluating job applicants based on experience and 
skills assessments, rather than formal credentials or degrees.
    Major companies across industries, from Google to IBM in 
the tech sector to Costco and Publix in the retail sector, have 
been adopting skills-based hiring. Similarly, the Federal and 
State governments, and you mentioned many states, are looking 
to this approach for an increasing number of job applicants. 
For the past 2 years, 10 states, with both Democratic and 
Republican Governors, have passed policies to implement skills-
based hiring for new public service jobs.
    Notably, the previous administration also issued an 
executive order that instructed the Federal Government to 
implement skills-based hiring, and the current administration 
released new guidelines on skills-based hiring within the 
Federal Government. These initiatives demonstrate that skills-
based hiring has the potential to provide workers with another 
established pathway to find good-paying jobs.
    I am encouraged by the bipartisan enthusiasm for skill-
based hiring. I appreciate the Chairwoman's interest in 
exploring how programs in the Workforce Innovation and 
Opportunities Act, or WIOA, can do a better job of ensuring 
equitable employment opportunities for those with barriers to 
employment.
    When the House passed the legislation to reauthorize WIOA 
with bipartisan support last Congress, we included provisions 
that support those from historically disadvantaged backgrounds, 
such as the increasing use of wraparound services and codifying 
comprehensive services for justice-involved individuals.
    I am also hopeful that this committee can discuss how the 
government can facilitate skills-based hiring practices, 
without driving a wedge between the value of a college degree 
and skills and experience. College degrees remain the surest 
pathway to economic mobility. This does not mean that everyone 
should be forced to go to college, nor does it mean that 
everyone should be restricted to receiving skills training.
    Both higher education and skills training should be 
accessible to every American. In other words, Democrats agree 
that skills-based hiring has the potential to make our economy 
more efficient, more equitable, and more productive. We must do 
our due diligence to ensure that new hiring practices close 
income gaps and expand pathways to employment.
    To do that, we need a robust body of evidence that 
considers the employment outcomes of these individuals. Simply 
put, we must ensure that skills-based hiring is not just 
equitable in concept, but equitable in practice. To that end, I 
hope we can pass a bipartisan and fully funded reauthorization 
of WIOA that relies on evidence-based practices, and better 
engages employers in our workforce development system.
    We should also pass two initiatives that remove financial 
barriers to upskilling. One, the National Apprenticeship Act of 
2023, that is because registered apprenticeship programs rely 
on skill-based hiring, and are alternative ways to economic 
prosperity, and Workforce Pell, which would enable students to 
use Pell grants to access short-term programs proven to lead to 
good careers.
    Today, I look forward to discussing how these steps would 
unlock the full potential of our economy, rebuild the middle 
class, provide employers with the skilled workers they are 
looking for, and create more options for workers to find 
meaningful careers. Thank you, Madam Chair, and I thank the 
witnesses for being with us this morning, and I yield back.
    [The Statement of Ranking Member Scott follows:]
    
    [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT] 
    
    
    Chairwoman Foxx. Thank you, Mr. Scott. Pursuant to 
Committee Rule 8(c), all members who wish to insert written 
statements into the record may do so by submitting them to the 
Committee Clerk electronically in Microsoft Word format by 5 
p.m., 14 days after the date of this hearing, which is July 6, 
2023.
    Without objection, the hearing record will remain open for 
14 days to allow such statements and other extraneous material 
referred during the hearing to be submitted for the official 
hearing record. I now turn to the introduction of our 
distinguished witnesses.
    Our first witness is Dr. Karin Kimbrough, who is the Chief 
Economist for LinkedIn located in Sunnyvale, California. Our 
second witness is Dr. Mark Smith, who is Director of H.R. 
Thought Leadership for the Society of Human Resource 
Management, SHRM.
    Our third witness is Dr. Papia Debroy, who is Senior Vice 
President of Insights for Opportunity at Work. Our final 
witness is Dr. Dan Healey, who is Head of People for Customer 
Success for SAP, which is located in Newton Square, 
Pennsylvania.
    You certainly have some interesting titles today. We thank 
our witnesses for being here today and look forward to your 
testimony. I will remind the witnesses we have read your 
written statements, and they will appear in full in the hearing 
record. Pursuant to Committee Rule 8(d) and Committee practice, 
I ask that you limit your oral presentations to a 5-minute 
summary of your written statements.
    I also remind the witnesses to be aware of the 
responsibility to provide accurate information to the 
Committee. I now recognize Dr. Kimbrough for 5 minutes.

  STATEMENT OF DR. KARIN KIMBROUGH, CHIEF ECONOMIST, LINKEDIN 
               CORPORATION, SUNNYVALE, CALIFORNIA

    Ms. Kimbrough. All right. Thank you. Chairwoman Foxx, 
Ranking Member Scott, and members of the Committee thank you 
for inviting me to testify today. My name is Dr. Karin 
Kimbrough, and I serve as the Chief Economist at LinkedIn. My 
team has been researching how we as a nation can do better to 
match talent to jobs, to enhance outcomes for individuals and 
employers alike.
    I appreciate the opportunity to share LinkedIn's insights 
on a skills-first approach to hiring talent. In the U.S. today, 
there are 10.1 million unfilled jobs on LinkedIn alone. The 
number of open jobs has doubled in the past 3 years. At the 
same time there are nearly 70 million workers that are not 
being considered because they lack a college degree.
    These include Americans like Sierra, who had worked to 
acquire new skills over the past few years and is now seeking a 
better paying job as an IT manager, however she finds she is 
consistently shut out, not because of lack of skills, but a 
lack of a degree in a system that too often overlooks other 
means of recognizing talent.
    Sierra, and our more than 200 million U.S. members interact 
with millions of employers seeking new and exciting job 
opportunities, and this gives us at LinkedIn a real time view 
of our economy, and how companies find and hire talent. It also 
shows us that our current system of hiring is simply not 
working. It leaves far too many people behind.
    The Bureau of Labor Statistics indicates that there are 
nearly 1.6 unfilled position for every unemployed person in the 
U.S., highlighting a large imbalance between labor demand and 
supply. When employers hire based on degrees, they miss out on 
half the workforce.
    In particular, this locks out roughly three-quarters of 
rural Americans, Hispanic Americans and Black Americans who do 
not currently hold a 4-year degree. Our nation and our economy 
cannot afford such a system to continue. This trend has major 
implications for growth in equality and inflation. It is also 
unlikely to change dramatically in the foreseeable future given 
early retirements and an aging workforce.
    We recently released a comprehensive report which 
highlights how a skills first approach to hiring can address 
this gap by vastly expanding the pool of qualified talent, and 
Democratizing access to jobs. Our research found that in the 
U.S. the impact of shifting to a skills first approach 
increases the number of qualified, eligible workers by nearly 
20 times.
    With a skills first approach in jobs where women are 
particularly unrepresented, such as technology or construction, 
the proportion of women in the U.S. talent pool would increase 
26 percent more than it would for men. We also found that 
younger workers are in the best position to benefit.
    In the U.S. the talent pool increases more than 18 times 
for Millennials and more than 21 times for Gen Z workers. This 
approach incidentally also serves employers, who can be more 
adaptive in meeting their changing labor needs which will only 
accelerate with the continued advances of technology.
    We are already seeing evidence of this skills first 
approach taking hold at many levels. Most significantly, our 
data indicate that roughly one in five job postings on LinkedIn 
no longer require a degree. Today, almost half of hirers on 
LinkedIn use skills data to filter candidates for jobs.
    In the last year, LinkedIn members have added 380 million 
skills to their profiles. Let me be clear, we recognize the 
value of a college degree. It is a meaningful signal of 
competency and skills; however, we need to create multiple 
pathways to signal relevant talent and skills. We believe that 
there are several ways that Congress can help advance a skills 
first approach.
    As part of the reauthorization of WIOA we recommend a few 
things. First, encourage employers, states and local 
governments who receive WIOA funds to use skills first hiring. 
Allow funds to support employers seeking to implement skills-
based hiring. Leverage the required skill assessments to enable 
credentials reflecting current skills and allow support of 
research evaluation and dissemination of skills first hiring 
efforts.
    In addition, we support Pell Grants being used for short-
term programs, and we urge you to consider other 
recommendations included in our report. Thank you for the 
opportunity to share our insights, our thoughts, and our 
recommendations. LinkedIn looks forward to working with this 
Committee as you pursue policies which promote a skills first 
agenda for Sierra and the 70 million Americans.
    [The Statement of Ms. Kimbrough follows:] 
    
    [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT] 
  

    Chairwoman Foxx. Thank you very much, Dr. Kimbrough. Dr. 
Smith, you are recognized for 5 minutes.

      STATEMENT OF DR. MARK SMITH, DIRECTOR OF H.R.  
     THOUGHT LEADERSHIP, SHRM, ALEXANDRIA, VIRGINIA 

    Mr. Smith. Good morning. Madam Chair Foxx, Ranking Member 
Scott, and honorable members of the Committee. I am Mark Smith, 
Director of H.R. Thought Leadership at SHRM, and I am happy to 
testify for you today about skills-based hiring.
    On behalf of the 325,000 members of SHRM, thank you for 
this opportunity to be a witness on this important issue. 
Particularly, on the use of skills assessments. Skills-based 
hiring is about ensuring people have a chance to showcase their 
actual qualifications for the job. Unbiased, and validated 
skills assessment measure the critical knowledge and skills 
needed for a job.
    Simply put, they open the doors to opportunity. SHRM 
research has found that more than half of employers use pre-
employment assessments, and 78 percent of those say it improves 
the quality of hires. These assessments connect employers to 
applicants who have been historically underrepresented, 
including those who did not attend top tier schools, people who 
served in the military, or were incarcerated.
    Workers with disabilities, youth who did not attend 
college, and older workers. The use of skills assessment 
requires careful management, and SHRM has identified best 
practices to consider when utilizing these assessments, 
including conducting a self-assessment to determine whether 
current employment practices disadvantage certain groups, 
creating objective, job-related qualification standards, and 
implementing practices that diversify the pool of candidates.
    While there are several strategies for determining the job 
relatedness of a selection procedure, I will highlight two that 
are most relevant for skills testing. First, determining 
validity through content related evidence involves 
demonstrating that the test content matches what employees need 
to do on the job.
    This involves a careful analysis to understand what's 
required to perform the job, followed by creating or adopting a 
test that reliably measures these skills. Second, a criterion 
related validation consists of administering the test to a 
group of people, usually job incumbents, and then evaluating 
them on the job. To the extent that people who score higher on 
the test perform better on the job, the test demonstrates its 
validity.
    There are several tools and approaches available to make 
the validation process easier. For example, the Federal 
Government has created a foundation with the Department of 
Labor supporting Ona system, which saves time and effort for 
organizations by providing valuable skill information for 
nearly 1,000 occupations.
    There are also existing tests available to employers for 
screening applicants on a variety of skills and skill levels, 
but employers must consider that these tests require some form 
of local validation. Some employers turn to credentialing 
organizations for verifying the skills of applicants by hiring 
individuals who already have the relevant credentials.
    Despite the benefits of skills assessments, many employers 
are not taking advantage of them. Some believe that skills 
tests are not worth the required effort, while others find the 
process too complex. Still others fear lawsuits or penalties 
from the EEOC or other agencies.
    As this Committee pursues the reauthorization of the 
Workforce Innovation and Opportunity Act, there are several 
ways in which this law may be used to elevate skills-based 
hiring. This includes expanding the range of business services 
made available to employers through local one stop career 
centers, to include assistance with implementing a skills-based 
hiring system using unbiased and validated skills assessments.
    WIOA should also be amended to expand the transparency of 
credentials and ensure that participants enrolling in an 
eligible program have a clear understanding that such a 
credential validates their job relevance. In addition to 
changes to WIOA, SHRM supports the Advancing Skills-Based 
Hiring Act introduced by Representative Stefanik last Congress.
    This would provide employers with confirmation from the 
EEOC when their use of a specific assessment meets the burden 
of being job related. Enacting this legislation will give 
employers the assurance they need to implement a skills-based 
hiring system. Thank you.
    [The Statement of Dr. Smith follows:]
    
    [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
  

    Chairwoman Foxx. Thank you, Dr. Smith. I now recognize Dr. 
Debroy for 5 minutes.

     STATEMENT OF DR. PAPIA DEBROY, SENIOR VICE PRESIDENT 
                OF INSIGHTS, OPPORTUNITY@WORK 

    Ms. Debroy. Good morning, everyone. Chairwoman Foxx, 
Ranking Member Scott, and members of the committee. Thank you 
for the invitation to be with all of you today. It is an honor 
to speak with you all. My name is Papia Debroy, and I am a 
researcher with the nonprofit social enterprise Opportunity at 
Work.
    I am going to begin my remarks today actually by anchoring 
us in our labor force. There are about 140 million of us who 
are showing up to work every day, active. Of that 140 million, 
about 60 million of us have a bachelor's degree, or a higher 
level of educational attainment.
    These workers have traversed a pathway through higher 
education that is critical to our economy. In addition to these 
60 million workers though, are another 70 million; they have a 
high school diploma, do not have a bachelor's degree, but are 
skilled. They are skilled through alternative roots, that 
acronym is STARs.
    Who are these workers that we call STARS? Well, they are 
our cousins, they are our neighbors, our siblings, our parents. 
They have gained skills through military service, through 
community college programs. Most of the time they have gained 
skills by showing up to work every day getting better at their 
jobs and gaining skills on the job.
    We know the world is different for STARs than workers with 
a bachelor's degree. When a STAR entered the workforce in 1989 
at the age of 25, they were earning less than a worker with a 
bachelor's degree. That has historically been the case. If you 
track the STAR for the next 30 years of their career is what 
you see is that 30 years into their career, a STAR is still not 
earning what the bachelor's degree worker was earning on day 
one of work.
    That inequality is new to this generation. STARs make up a 
significant portion of our workforce in every region of this 
country. In Virginia, STARs are 48 percent of the workforce. In 
North Carolina, they comprise 54 percent of the workforce. In 
both states, they contribute to the economy in jobs ranging 
from sales representatives to software developers, to 
registered nurses.
    When a job requires a degree, employers automatically 
screen out almost 80 percent of Hispanic workers, more than 70 
percent of Black workers, 75 percent of rural workers, and 
nearly 70 percent of veterans. While bachelor's degree programs 
have been, and always will be, a critical pathway to higher 
wages in this country, tens of millions of STARs are also 
gaining valuable skills for higher wage jobs , and they should 
not be locked out of opportunity.
    Especially because if you study the skills of STARs, what 
you will see is that millions of them are positioned for higher 
wages today. 30 million STARs have skills to make a transition 
to a higher wage job if they were given access and opportunity 
to do so today.
    They are positioned for jobs we call gateway and 
destination jobs. Unfortunately, these are precisely the jobs 
they have been locked out of. They have lost access to almost 7 
and a half million gateway and destination job opportunities in 
the past two decades.
    These jobs include jobs like secretaries, H.R. assistants, 
computer support specialists, medical diagnostic technicians. 
These degree barriers are compounded by other barriers, 
misperceptions, biases, weaker professional networks. They 
amount to something we call the paper ceiling, and more than 
half of our workforce faces it.
    What might we do to actually tear the paper ceiling? First, 
as an employer, the public sector plays a critical role. 
Federal, State, and local government actors are some of the 
largest employers in every State in this country, yet the 
government is requiring degrees for its roles more often than 
the private sector, and State and local governments require 
degrees more often than Federal positions.
    I do want to note how quickly the public sector has acted 
upon realizing this error. 14 states as of this week have 
removed degree requirements for State roles in the past 12 
months. Second, we need a 21st century Federal workforce data 
infrastructure. All labor market participants need trustworthy, 
granular, timely and accurate data on occupations, vacancies 
and employment wages and skill needs.
    We need that data longitudinally and across geographies. 
Third, we must strengthen WIOA. WIOA is the primary funding 
source offering STARs access to skills training and support 
service programs. Through it we must elevate community 
colleges, and the key players they are in local economies.
    The majority of STARs have some college credit, and nearly 
one of every five STARs has an associate's degree. Finally, 
employers must be incentivized to shift to skills-based hiring. 
Policy makers can actually support employers as they experiment 
with new ways to do this. For example, employers are deploying 
apprenticeships and other work-based learning programs in many 
new roles in the US labor market. It is time to tear the paper 
ceiling for STARs. Thank you for your time today.
    [The Statement of Ms. Debroy follows:]
    
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    Chairwoman Foxx. Thank you, Dr. Debroy. Now, I recognize 
Mr. Healey for 5 minutes.

       STATEMENT OF MR. DAN HEALEY, HEAD OF PEOPLE FOR 
     CUSTOMER SUCCESS, SAP, NEWTON SQUARE, PENNSYLVANIA

    Mr. Healey. Chairwoman Foxx, Ranking Member Scott, and 
honorable members of this Committee, my name is Dan Healey, and 
I am the head of H.R. for Head of People for Customer Success 
Organization at SAP. Thank you for the opportunity to 
participate in this hearing and provide a perspective of a 
major technology employer and human capital management provider 
on skills-based hiring, an issue of critical importance to our 
Nation.
    As the world's largest enterprise cloud software company, 
SAP and our 107,000 global employees, and 25,000 colleagues 
here in the United States help over 450,000 companies of all 
sizes, and all industries run at their best. This footprint 
enables SAP to touch almost all corners of our U.S. economy.
    Technology is changing rapidly, with over 10 million open 
jobs and business needs evolving, companies have had to rethink 
their approach to hiring, developing, and retaining talent to 
focus on skills. This approach means urgent business needs, 
while expanding the opportunity for more workers to enter into 
in demand career pathways.
    SAP has invested heavily and transformed our recruiting 
process, our approach to employee upskilling and career 
pathways, and also invested in digital skills in communities 
nationwide. Skills-based hiring is not just a trend. It is a 
business imperative. It allows us to tap into expanded pools of 
quality candidates, reduce time to hire, create opportunities 
for individuals who are often overlooked.
    At SAP we have shifted away from looking at those 
traditional signals such as degrees and universities attended, 
and instead we looked at each candidate, and looked at how we 
can find ways to distill what that person can accomplish. We 
recognize that individuals can develop the skills needed to 
work in technology through many education pathways, including 
community colleges, career technical schools, software boot 
camps, technical certification programs, high school technical 
programs, on the job apprenticeships, internships, and our own 
U.S. military.
    Once workers join SAP, we continue to use a skills-based 
approach to advance our talent. For example, in our labs, our 
software labs in the United States we run rotational 
development programs that uses blind screening processes to 
assess talent for relevant skills. As a result, we have hired a 
more diverse class that we have ever had, with over 50 percent 
females, and the largest number of underrepresented minority 
developers from boot camps and career backgrounds that were 
often overlooked.
    At SAP, we commit toward our employers ongoing success, and 
part of that recipe for this is again skills-based development. 
For example, our salespeople and software developers receive 
skills assessments annually, and personalized coaching, 
regardless of their background. We can correlate skill 
development to on-the-job performance and company achievement.
    At SAP we believe in building skills not only for our 
employees, but for communities nationwide. In 2021, we launched 
Learning as ASAP.com, a free platform to build relevant skills. 
Last year, we had more than a million people actively engage 
with SAP's learning content, which offers some of the world's 
deepest and most robust IT education.
    In 2022, we further committed to upskill 2 million people 
by 2025 through our digital initiative. Here we focused on 
reaching out to communities previously excluded from some of 
these programs, specifically women, underrepresented 
minorities, veterans, unemployed and under employed, along with 
students.
    We have programs for students, including K through 12 STEM 
education, university career development and adult learners, 
and especially our NS2 serves program, which supports our 
Nation's veterans, which is a skills-based hiring program that 
has led to a 98 percent placement rate among our veteran 
graduates.
    SAP is not alone in taking these actions to build skills in 
workers. For example, through the Business Roundtable Corporate 
Initiative, CEOs are collaborating to implement skills-based 
hiring and advancement practices, develop and scale 
apprenticeship programs, and advance other initiatives, focused 
on workforce development such as second chance hiring.
    To compete at home and globally we need a public workforce 
development system that is flexible, and capable of preparing 
workers with skills for in demand and growing careers, urging 
the Nation's jobs and skills mismatch will require a major 
national commitment to lifelong learning, and a robust suite of 
services to deliver state-of-the-art continual skills.
    Thank you for this opportunity to share SAP's own workforce 
perspective. It is an area ripe for bipartisan action, with 
measurable opportunities to grow the economy and expand our 
talent pipeline. I know I speak for many across the business 
community in saying I hope this Committee and Congress will act 
on these opportunities.
    We are committed to partnering with you to meet employers' 
workforce needs and deliver opportunity for Americans to 
strengthen our global competitiveness.
    [The Statement of Mr. Healy follows:]
    
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    Chairwoman Foxx. Thank you, Mr. Healey. Under Committee 
Rule 9, we will now question witnesses under the 5-minute rule. 
The Ranking Member and I will go first on asking questions, and 
then we are going to disappear, but we are not disappearing, we 
are going over to the floor because they do not schedule the 
floor around our Committee unfortunately, so we both have to go 
to the floor to handle a bill, so I want the witnesses to 
understand we are not just leaving Willy Nilly.
    Thank you very much. I now recognize myself for 5 minutes. 
Mr. Healey, you made a very strong business case for skills 
base hiring. Despite all the clear upsides you mentioned, it 
appears most employers are still relying on credential criteria 
like bachelor's degrees and previous job titles.
    What do you think prevents employers from making the shift 
to skills-based hiring, and what is the most important thing we 
can do as policymakers to break down these barriers?
    Mr. Healey. Chairwoman Foxx, thank you for your question. 
Because skills-based hiring requires different processes and 
different thinking, there is a change management issue I 
believe at heart. Organizations have long struggled with skills 
management due to outdated skills frameworks, and the 
difficulty to objectively assess skills and validate those 
skills.
    Skills-based hiring requires more time. It requires more 
planning. Often the way headcount is deployed based on budget 
process, it is a land grab, and you fill open headcount 
quickly, which puts lots of pressure on talent attraction 
organizations, and on H.R. to onboard.
    We have seen some great examples in my home State of 
Pennsylvania. For example, we have removed the 4-year degree 
requirement. I believe that policymakers can support by 
creating multiple pathways for improving transparency in data 
systems, and creating flexibility for workers, and ensuring 
data privacy also to acquire new skills.
    We also see the Pell grants to pursue new skills in 
creating industry opportunities as well.
    Chairwoman Foxx. Thank you very much. Dr. Kimbrough, in 
your testimony you discussed how certain skills overlap across 
occupations and industries. In the case of a worker seeking a 
degree change, or a worker displaced by economic destruction, 
how can better identification of their existing skills and 
awareness of occupations with similar skills accelerate their 
advancement in the workforce?
    Ms. Kimbrough. Thank you, Dr. Foxx. We think it is really 
time to rethink how we hire and grow talent. At Linkedin, we 
see talent everywhere, but we do not see access to opportunity 
everywhere. When we think about a skills first approach, what 
we see, and I say this as an economist looking at our data, it 
benefits workers, it benefits businesses, employers, it 
benefits the economy.
    Some of the main conclusions which I referenced earlier 
were the 20 percent increase in the potential talent pool in 
the U.S. just by taking this approach alone. What I did not 
mention as well, was the fact that Democratizing access to 
opportunity benefits, in particular people without a college 
degree, but also women, and frankly, all generations.
    We see that it provides an increased resilience for workers 
who are navigating uncertainty and economic shocks when they 
are relying on their skills, as opposed to trying to find a 
similar job title. We also see that the data, our own data, 
actually suggests that when workers add skills, and the more 
skills that they do add the quicker they find a role, and the 
fewer jobs they need to apply to. Thank you.
    Chairwoman Foxx. Thank you very much. Dr. Smith, I am 
concerned that small and midsized employers may look at all the 
requirements for creating a valid skill's based assessment. I 
think it is too complex to pursue. Can you briefly walk us 
through how an employer can ``transfer'' the validity of an off 
the shelf assessment development by a third-party, and do you 
think additional clarity and technical assistance from the EEOC 
on transporting validity would be valuable to employers seeking 
to switch to a skills-based approach to hiring?
    Mr. Smith. Thank you for the question, Dr. Foxx. I am happy 
to talk about validity transportability. The basic premise 
there is if you have a job in one organization where you have 
validated a test, in order to transport that validity to a 
different location, you have to demonstrate that the job in the 
new location is functionally the same job.
    There are a couple of different ways to do that. One of the 
ways is through a job analysis questionnaire, where you can 
match the duties and the requirements of the job that has 
validity evidence to this new job. There is not a lot of good, 
specific guidance, and I think that is what we in the hiring 
community would need, good, specific evidence on what it takes 
to demonstrate proper validity for transportability.
    Chairwoman Foxx. Thank you very much. I yield back the 
balance of my time and recognize the Ranking Member for the 
purpose of questioning the witnesses.
    Mr. Scott. Thank you. Dr. Smith, just following up on that, 
I think that your question and the answers reflect the idea 
that some tests may not be effective in evaluating potential 
applicants, and also may show bias without showing any 
relationship to the ability to do the job.
    Who would actually validate? How do you validate the test, 
and how do you avoid inadvertent bias?
    Mr. Smith. Thanks for the question, Representative Scott. 
As long as the test is job relevant, that equals valid, and so 
you need to go through the process to show job relevance, and.
    Mr. Scott. Well, you could show job relevance with a 
discriminatory impact.
    Mr. Smith. Right. First of all, the tests need to be 
standard and used in a standard way, so everybody is treated 
the same, the test is scored the same way. Some of the times 
even when you go through that the test does show differential 
outcomes for different groups.
    That does not necessarily mean that the test is biased, as 
long as the test is job relevant, and everybody is treated the 
same way, then the desperate impact that may occur.
    Mr. Scott. Okay. There have been tests in the past that 
have shown job relevance valid, but better workers do better on 
the test, and poor workers do worse, with a notorious racial 
bias. Dr. Debroy, can you speak about how you deal with the 
racial bias in some of these standardized tests?
    Ms. Debroy. Thank you for the question, Mr. Scott. When we 
approach hiring with pedigree-based screening mechanisms, we 
automatically screen out a huge portion of workers in the 
United States. Almost 80 percent of Hispanic workers are 
screened out, 75 percent of Black workers are screened out. We 
also screen out veterans. We screen out rural workers in 
disproportionate volumes.
    When we approach the skills-based hiring method, there are 
a lot of different mechanisms that employers have available to 
them to actually think about how to assess the skill of a 
candidate. The first recommendation that we make is actually to 
consider the skills that the worker is gaining on the job in 
their past job, because that is how actually most of us make 
transitions in the US labor force.
    We make transitions to jobs that require very similar 
skill. The deployment of methods then to actually evaluate the 
skills of the candidate will vary a lot across different 
occupations in the US labor market. Picking the right skills 
assessment to actually ensure that you are not being biased, is 
a critically important point.
    Mr. Scott. You acknowledge that some tests may be good in 
terms of general validation, but have a significant racial 
bias?
    Ms. Debroy. Yes, that is correct. There is a lot of 
variation in the types of assessments that employers use, and 
some of them are not neutral. That is correct.
    Mr. Scott. OK. Thank you. Dr. Kimbrough, on LinkedIn, a lot 
of people look at the resume. Can you say a word about how a 
resume would look much better if it had a registered 
apprenticeship. Registered apprenticeships have national 
recognition and high standards. and how would that help 
somebody's resume?
    Ms. Kimbrough. Thank you, Ranking Member Scott. When people 
are able to on Linkedin members essentially upload their 
resume, and we call it their profile, data they choose to share 
publicly. They can put not only prior experience, what they 
have done, where they have worked, which would include 
apprenticeships, but also skills that they have gained in the 
process of doing any particular job.
    The benefit to answer your question of having an 
apprenticeship would allow a member on Linkedin, or any worker 
or job seeker to have more exposure to skills, to have more 
opportunity to showcase and demonstrate their skills on their 
profile, and therefore be perhaps a stronger match for a wider 
range of roles
    Mr. Scott. Let me get in another question. Do you also have 
skills certificates that you can get at a community college? 
How would a short-term Pell help you get those certificates on 
your resume?
    Ms. Kimbrough. Thank you for that question. I should say we 
are supportive of short-term Pell programs in general, and you 
have asked the question how would they help someone secure a 
role? To the extent that any member can enhance their education 
and skills by attending a community college, that is clearly 
another one of those powerful channels for accessing 
opportunity for enhancing someone's human potential.
    We would be very supportive of that. The more skills that a 
member has, as I have said before, the more opportunities they 
have to be recognized by recruiters and hirers and actually 
secure a job faster. I will say that we find that people who 
are sub-baccalaureate actually benefit disproportionately more 
by adding the skills to their profile.
    Mr. Scott. Thank you, Madam Chair.
    Chairwoman Foxx. I now recognize Mr. Thompson for 5 
minutes.
    Mr. Thompson. Thank you, Madam Chair. Thank you to all of 
our witnesses for being here today. As co-chair of the 
congressional Career and Technical Education Caucus, this 
hearing is timely given the challenges employers currently face 
in finding skilled workers in nearly every industry and every 
sector across the country.
    CTE schools often educate students with these skills in 
mind at a low cost, and quite frankly, in a short period of 
time. I am glad we are finally recognizing as a society the 
value of careers and education outside of traditional 4-year 
universities. As I travel throughout my district, I am 
incredibly pleased to see many career and technical education 
schools that now have waiting lists because of increased 
interest and demand.
    These investments in our future will help the next 
generation climb the ladder of opportunity. I always like to 
say it is not so important where you start in life, it is where 
you end up, and having been able to reach that next rung in the 
ladder of opportunity is what we work hard to provide. Mr. 
Healey, as you noted in your testimony, in a company as large 
as SAP, you implement a wide variety of hiring practices to 
recruit and retain a talented workforce.
    While I am sure there are some jobs that your company may 
require a bachelor's or an advanced degree, you noted how many 
do not. Even though a perspective employee may not have all the 
necessary skills for the job on day one, that does not mean 
that the employer cannot fill in the gaps. Mr. Healey, how do 
you think we can place a greater emphasis on employer driven 
upscaling, such as apprenticeships, or other work based 
learned?
    Mr. Healey. Congressman, thank you for your question. 
Employers will provide and serve an important role in helping 
newly onboard candidates develop ongoing learning and skills to 
succeed in their job, and to also be prepared for jobs that do 
not quite exist or have not been budgeted yet in a company.
    Companies like SAP, place a great emphasis on learning, on 
skills development, along with rotation programs, internship 
programs, but collectively we believe in on-the-job learning, 
which is every talent has an opportunity to learn about 70 
percent of what they need to be successful, and for career 
growth on the job.
    Another 20 percent is in mentoring and coaching, and 
ongoing support. Finally, the 10 percent part is in the actual 
hardcore skills learning, so it's a combination, but it is 
certainly fostered on the job.
    Mr. Thompson. Similarly, your testimony touched on the idea 
that skills-based hiring means that companies should consider a 
job applicant's current skills, in addition to a candidate's 
ability to acquire new skills for the future. What are some of 
the ways employers can gauge an individual's potential to build 
relevant skills?
    Mr. Healey. Thank you for the question. I think that as was 
referenced earlier, certainly standardized and objective 
measures to assess a candidate's skills, the applicability of 
those skills for roles within for example, SAP, will allow more 
employers like SAP, and this is something that we're trying to 
do consistently to make more informed and better decisions, but 
it does come down to that standardization and objective 
measurement of the skills, the skills that are in demand for 
roles.
    That removes again the focus away from the degree, and 
perhaps the institution where they studied to the actual 
skills.
    Mr. Thompson. Very good. Along those lines, graduates from 
CTE schools are often well equipped with the technical skills 
and knowledge that employers are looking for. I have been proud 
to see so many partnerships between the private sector and 
these schools in recent years. In many instances, local 
employers are coming to CTE schools with a set of skills or 
knowledge that they need to fill vacant positions, and these 
schools have been able to collaborate with them on a curriculum 
that meets these needs.
    Do you think that there are ways companies like SAP can 
partner more closely with CTE schools so they are involved in 
the student's education, and can ensure that their skills meet 
the needs of today? Quite frankly, tomorrow's workforce?
    Mr. Healey. Congressman, yes. I do agree, and I believe 
that there is a massive opportunity for companies like SAP to 
partner with institutions like this. Just as an example, now 
this is our university alliance program, but we are extending 
that approach. For 25 years SAP has worked with universities 
and community colleges around this country where we engaged 
between 125,000 and 150,000 students to learn very specific SAP 
skills that can apply to not only our customers. We have 
197,000 customers in the United States, but also our partner 
community, and certainly SAP alone.
    These programs incorporated into course work, CTE programs, 
et cetera, provide very relevant, timely skills which will 
stand out by the way on a Linkedin profile, which will stand 
out when we are running skills-based searches on Linkedin to 
identify candidates.
    I think that there is more of an opportunity to move that 
focus and engagement from the university level to other schools 
as well.
    Mr. Thompson. Thank you, Mr. Healey. My time has expired. 
Thank you.
    Mr. Owens. Thank you. I now recognize for 5 minutes Mr. 
Courtney.
    Mr. Courtney. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you to the 
witnesses for being here today. As was said earlier, the topic 
of this hearing could not be more timely. The labor market 
continues to outperform all the predictions of economic experts 
on both the right and the left. On June 2d, when the latest 
Bureau of Labor Statistics report came out the economy again, 
defied all the predictions, and created 339,000 new jobs.
    At the same time, as Dr. Kimbrough said, the number of job 
openings increased. Trying to sort of solve this problem for 
both employers, but also for perspective workers is all about 
trying to change the metrics in terms of how a person connects 
to a job opportunity.
    In Southern New England, we are seeing this phenomenon on 
steroids. Right now, with the Electric Boat Shipyard, who is 
doing again, a huge increase of work for the Navy in terms of 
submarine production. Last year, they hired just under 4,000 
people in Rhode Island and Connecticut, and that hiring target 
for this year is 5,750.
    When you are dealing with an issue of that magnitude, 
skills-based hiring just by sheer volume, is driving change in 
terms of how people are approaching. The good news is that WIOA 
pre-apprenticeship training programs really have just shown at 
this moment, in terms of setting up accelerated programs for 
welding, electricians, metal trades in general, that over a 
period of 8 to 10 weeks, you can actually get in the door of 
the shipyard, and then go from there on a daisy chain on a full 
apprenticeship training, and then even to advanced degrees 
because there is a lot of work for engineers, both in cyber and 
design work that is happening right now.
    The biggest issue that we are hearing from our workforce 
board in terms of how we can fix this, and again, a lot of the 
reforms that you have discussed here today I think would be a 
really good help for rewriting WIOA, but trying to get people, 
particularly from communities that really have not 
traditionally sort of been part of this sector to sort of take 
the leap in terms of moving forward, is dealing with just basic 
issues of how do you afford to take care of your kids, you 
know, get transportation, pay the rent during that time period.
    There is a limit to how much the stipends under WIOA can 
really afford to you know, to make it feasible for people to 
move that. Obviously Pell grants, short-term Pell grants would 
help the cause, but you know last year's WIOA actually 
addressed this issue by just sort of recognizing these 
realities, in terms of trying to help people really transform 
their lives.
    Again, Dr. Kimbrough, maybe you could comment in terms of 
just how that can really help solve this skills gap problem.
    Ms. Kimbrough. Yes, thank you so much Congressman. 
Absolutely. We have seen it in our own data, which spans over 
200 million members in the U.S., the impact of the shocks to 
the labor market, both from the pandemic and then the recovery, 
which was on its own since became a positive shock.
    As a result, we see that it is really important for workers 
to have all their needs met in order to be able to explore 
careers, because careers are not prescribed anymore. They are 
very opaque. It is not a lateral where you know you go one 
step, next step. You acquire skills, and then you look around 
to see where could this skill possibly be applied. Where can I 
maximize my income?
    Absolutely. It is important and imperative that we find 
ways to expand all the pathways for people to access skills, 
and then to be able to demonstrate them, have them validated, 
so they can have career progression and receive really better 
wages.
    Mr. Courtney. Again, that is why we have to really focus on 
sort of just basic, you know, realities for people in terms of 
trying to make that change. It is not that easy, as much as we 
know it works. Another example of earn while you learn is 
apprenticeships, which goes back to the 1930's, the Fitzgerald 
Act.
    Congressman Fitzgerald had my congressional seat at the 
time when President Roosevelt signed that into law. We know it 
works, but unfortunately, it has been too narrow a segment of 
the population that has been served by it. The reauthorization 
that got through the house last year would extend the scope to 
other sectors like healthcare that have not traditionally been 
apprenticeship.
    Again, Dr. Debroy, in a few seconds, maybe you could just 
sort of talk about how that model, which again allows people to 
deal with how you pay the bills can really change people's 
lives.
    Ms. Debroy. Absolutely. Apprenticeships as you say, they 
are a time-tested way for actually offering employers a very 
reliable pipeline to scale talent, and while they have 
traditionally been concentrated in the trades, we did some work 
last year that actually showed that in the last 10 years, 
apprenticeships have expanded to 100 new roles in our labor 
market , and employers have actually been implementing informal 
apprenticeships in an additional 200 roles. They are absolutely 
a method that employers should be thinking about considering in 
more scale in the coming years. Thank you for the question.
    Mr. Owens. Thank you. I will now recognize for 5 minutes 
Mr. Walberg.
    Mr. Walberg. I thank the Chairman, and I thank my friend 
from Connecticut too for highlighting that because it is 
expanding because it works, and we need to keep doing that. 
Thanks for the panel for being here. Dr. Kimbrough, you have 
seen I am sure as I have, over and over again the shortage of 
skilled workers with employers just crying out for needed 
workforce.
    Could you explain more fully finding--Linkedin's finding 
that shifting to a skills first approach can increase the 
number of qualified eligible workers by nearly 20 times, and I 
am sure you have illustrations from the small business 
community on that.
    Ms. Kimbrough. Thank you. Thank you so much, Congressman 
Walberg. Let me just say that we do indeed hear from many, many 
employers who are looking for talent across our range of 
industries from healthcare to construction, even manufacturing 
and retail, so it really is happening at this moment.
    Our findings that we could potentially expand the talent 
pool of qualified, eligible workers by up to 20 times in the 
U.S. is calibrated on the idea that if you look at just the 
skills that people have, and you do not try to first filter for 
a degree, you start off already with a much broader pool of 
people. If I started with a constraint of just a degree, I am 
already restricting myself to only 37 percent of working 
Americans, and then I need to find the skills that I want.
    If I do away with that constraint, I am starting with a 
much larger pool, and that is how we get in very quick terms, 
how we get to a 20 times number. It ranges from industry to 
industry. Some industries do not see as much of that expansion, 
but all industries do see some expansion of talent pool when we 
use a skills first approach.
    On the small business point, absolutely, we see we have 
about 80 percent of our employers are small businesses on our 
platform, so they are definitely adopters of this approach.
    Mr. Walberg. Yes. Well, that is my approach to fishing. I 
look for the largest schools and go for that. Dr. Kimbrough, 
you discussed also how Linkedin found that matching job seeker 
skills to job postings, specifically led to higher success 
rates and required fewer applications.
    The workforce system under WIOA is tasked with getting 
employed and underemployed workers into job opportunities. Can 
you explain Linkedin's approach to matching skills with 
opportunities, and are there ways the workforce system could 
better utilize skills information to achieve that mission?
    Ms. Kimbrough. Yes. At Linkedin we have a platform that 
essentially enables job seekers to come and find employment. 
They can look privately, or they can signal that they are open 
to work, and we have employers who are seeking talent. What we 
find in our data is that as I said before, there is an 
increasing need to find talent and a lot of industries are 
still struggling.
    I will add that we are starting to see job seekers come 
back with a little bit more interest in the past couple of 
months, so maybe the labor market is rebalancing. What we see 
in our data is better matching. When we use a skills first 
approach you get a more precise match, a better match, and what 
that means I will put my economist hat on, is that we just have 
a more efficient market.
    It is more dynamic, it is more efficient because people are 
moving around and navigating their career choices according to 
the skills they have, and not because they need to find a job 
with a similar job title. It is kind of a win, win, and I do 
believe last, as I said before, that it does provide a lot more 
access opportunity for many more underserved groups, rural 
Americans, veterans, women. Thank you.
    Mr. Walberg. Yes. That is what we want to see, everybody 
participating yes.
    Ms. Kimbrough. Absolutely.
    Mr. Walberg. Dr. Smith, you indicated that 79 percent of 
H.R. professionals find scores on pre-employment skills 
assessments just as important, or more important than 
traditional criteria like degrees or years of experience. How 
can directly assessing the skills of candidates through 
assessments lead to more effective hiring, and then relying on 
a bachelor's degree or a proxy for ability?
    Mr. Smith. Thank you for the question, Representative 
Walberg. I think it is time that we stop making the assumption 
that the only place to get key skills and abilities are through 
colleges and getting college degrees.
    Mr. Walberg. Parents, are you listening. Go on.
    Mr. Smith. There are skills assessments to more directly 
assess these things, and I think that organizations should use 
them more, and worry more about the skills, and less about 
where they came from.
    Mr. Walberg. Yes. Well, I appreciate that, and I think it 
is going to be proven. I yield back, thank you.
    Mr. Owens. Thank you. I would like to recognize for 5 
minutes, Dr. Adams.
    Ms. Adams. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you to our 
witnesses for joining us this morning. In North Carolina, 
Governor Cooper, recently issued an executive order emphasizing 
the importance of skills-based hiring. In turn, this would 
encourage more North Carolinians to apply for government jobs, 
and to help recruit additional skilled workers without having 
attained a 4-year degree.
    In your testimony, Dr. Debroy, you identified 13 State 
governments that have removed degree requirements for their job 
classifications. As you correctly pointed out, these actions 
send a message to other employers in the State that, if a 
worker has the skills to perform a job, they should have access 
to it, and the potential career advancement that it offers. 
Would you elaborate just a bit more, on how State governments 
are currently benefiting from the adoption of skills-based 
hiring practices?
    Ms. Debroy. Thank you so much for the question. You are 
exactly right. In the last year, as of this week, 14 states 
have removed unnecessary degree requirements for hard to fill 
roles. 10 Governors followed Maryland's lead last summer in 
passing executive orders, and 4 states have passed legislation 
focused on skills-based hiring.
    This is a bipartisan movement, and it speaks to the 
critical need, as you say, to rethink our standard hiring 
practices in a labor market that is not allowing many workers 
to reach their full potential. These actions are really low-
cost ways to actually open hiring processes to more applicants 
and improve economic mobility in regions for qualified workers.
    In the example of Maryland where we worked closely with the 
Governor, they were motivated to address the needs of the 
workers, and what they actually were able to do by shifting 
their hiring practices in this State alone, was enable access 
to 1.3 million additional workers.
    Ms. Adams. Let me ask you because I have got a few more 
questions. Were there any barriers that you could mention that 
you have seen?
    Ms. Debroy. Barriers to removing degree requirements?
    Ms. Adams. Yes.
    Ms. Debroy. Yes. Good question. In the context of the 
public sector, I think one of the things that has actually been 
proven now by these 14 states is that when the decision is 
made, action can follow quite quickly, and I think that is 
actually a really important signal for all of us to be latching 
onto at this moment.
    Ms. Adams. Dr. Kimbrough, you mentioned briefly in your 
testimony that nondegree holders lose a vital path for upward 
mobility, when employers use degrees as a proxy for skills. Can 
you talk a little bit about how skill-based learning impacts 
the ability of workers without degrees to earn promotions, and 
do you think that this practice, whatever it may be, would 
minimize any possible biases when promoting workers?
    Ms. Kimbrough. Thank you for the question, Congresswoman. 
We believe that talent is equally distributed. Opportunity is 
not, and skills are everywhere. Everyone possesses a variety of 
skills, a constellation of skills that will allow them to 
perform tasks and hold jobs.
    To the extent that workers are able to embrace learning, 
and we see this in our own platform with more and more people 
choosing to invest in themselves through online learning 
courses, or from taking classes at community college, and 
adding those skills to their profile, we think about almost 
like skills are a currency or a building block for your career, 
and the ability to acquire the skills is what will allow people 
to enrich and empower themselves, so I absolutely think that 
this is how people can progress in their career, by having 
greater experiences, and a bigger breadth of experiences, and 
fundamentally expanding the avenues.
    Ms. Adams. Yes, yes ma'am. Well, thank you. In the LinkedIn 
report it is mentioned that traditional skills, such as years 
of experience are flawed predictors of somebody's ability. Can 
you discuss briefly how to prepare workers who are already in 
the workforce for skills-based hiring?
    Ms. Kimbrough. I am so sorry. Could you repeat just the 
last part of the question?
    Ms. Adams. Okay. For workers who are already in the 
workforce, how should they be prepared for skills-based hiring?
    Ms. Kimbrough. For workers--very briefly, for workers who 
are already in the workforce preparing for skill based hiring 
really means being able to acquire skills, showcase your 
skills, demonstrate them in a way that can be valid, and 
remember that all skills matter. So many skills are changing 
over time. It is imperative for people to kind of continuously 
learn.
    Ms. Adams. Well, thank you very much as a 40-year college 
professor at a 4-year institution, I certainly appreciate all 
that you've offered today. Thank you very much, and I yield 
back.
    Mr. Owens. Thank you. I recognize for 5 minutes Mr. 
Grothman.
    Mr. Grothman. Yes, first of all Ms. Kimbrough, you said 
something during your testimony that bothered me a little bit. 
You advocated more use of Pell grants. My concern with Pell 
grants is always there is a significant marriage penalty 
associated with them, and a significant work requirement, 
because they are based on a percent of poverty.
    I can think of three examples, since I have had this job of 
people giving the examples of people who didn't get married 
because they have a ``free college course''. It is not entirely 
free, but it helped you along those lines. Could you comment on 
that? That is my big problem with Pell grants. How do you 
respond to people who would say they expect the person who is 
grabbing the Pell grant when they have a full-time job, or 
grabbing the Pell grant when they are married, in both of those 
cases they do not get it because they are not in poverty, and 
therefore the programs discourage work and discourage marriage.
    Ms. Kimbrough. Thank you for that question, Congressman. At 
Linkedin we support broadening the pathways for people to have 
access to opportunity, so to the extent that a Pell grant is 
yet another option, in a variety of options. We do not support, 
or we have not taken a position on any particular piece of 
legislation. We are just very supportive of the opportunity to 
work with this Committee to find numerous solutions for all 
Americans.
    Mr. Grothman. No. You understand what I am saying though? 
Right? A Pell grant is based on percent of poverty, so if you 
are saying going to school in addition to working full-time, 
you cannot get the Pell grant. If you marry somebody who has a 
full-time job, you cannot get the Pell grant. There are people 
who do not have jobs, or do not get married because they are 
eligible for these sort of programs. Does that bother you?
    Ms. Kimbrough. Apologies. I have not investigated this 
issue very deeply. It is a little outside of my domain as a 
macro economist, but I would say it would seem prudent to have 
as many options as possible, so that we do not let people who 
can fall outside and garner solutions.
    Mr. Grothman. Okay. Well, next question for Mr. Healey. I 
think doing court cases, which are now 50 years old, makes it 
difficult to give people some tests that maybe you can take, 
maybe even in lieu of a college degree. How do you think we can 
deal with it because on the one hand you want to be able to 
hire people based on skills, or ability to do something.
    On the other hand, we have court cases kind of saying that 
you cannot give certain tests. Can you explain to me how we can 
kind of square that circle?
    Mr. Healey. Thank you, Congressman, for the question. I 
would like to illustrate an example, an investment that SAP has 
made. I hope it directly answers your question. Years ago, SAP 
created our NS2 Serves program. It is a program designed to 
support our veterans.
    There are 19 million American who are veterans, and to 
address a growing need, now this is very specific around the 
skills piece that I want to touch on. SAP launched NS2, and it 
is a subsidiary of our company. The program is in high demand, 
and we essentially offer free training in supporting veterans 
in their transition to civilian life.
    It has an eight-to-12-week intensive program, and students 
at all technical levels, and I think this is I hope, addressing 
to your question at all technical levels, yet worldclass 
software training and education and learning.
    Mr. Grothman. No. You are not answering my question, so I 
have got to maybe clarify it more. If you were going to give 
somebody a job, and you are not going to say you have to go to 
college, you have to find another way to measure this applicant 
versus another applicant. There was a time in this country 
where you could do that by giving them a test, okay?
    Court decisions struck down the idea of just giving 
somebody a test. On the other hand, I think we have all sorts 
of people who could do a job without going to college, you 
know, but they cannot get that job. How does a company identify 
that person? The obvious way to do it is to give them a test.
    Mr. Owens. Brief question, you can answer.
    Mr. Healey. Very shortly. I would say it is again back to 
the skills assessment piece. What are the required skills for a 
role independent of their credentials, and what are the skills 
which we can assess our candidates and we can match those 
skills.
    Mr. Owens. Thank you. Thank you so much. I would like to 
recognize for 5 minutes Ms. McBath.
    Mrs. McBath. Thank you. Thank you so much, Chairwoman Foxx, 
Ranking Member Scott, and to our witnesses for making this 
hearing possible today. A college degree or credential is still 
the surest path to economic security, but it is clear that 
relying so heavily just on a higher education system that 
remains pay to play is not what is best for our students, or 
for our country.
    For too long, it has been emphasized that the only way to 
be successful is to possibly take out a loan and go to a 4-year 
institution. While we have some amazing universities in our 
country, and in my State of Georgia, and they truly do kind of 
remain the surest path for Americans to create a good life for 
themselves and for their families, there are other options out 
there that we need to be doing more to promote as well.
    Every student in high school should have the chance to be 
encouraged to learn more about the trades and other 
opportunities to get ahead like registered apprenticeships. I 
am highly in favor of those. While I firmly believe that every 
student should be able to go to college if they want to, the 
fact of the matter is that some families are just not able to 
afford to send their children to college because of the cost , 
a direct result of decreased public investment in higher 
education, and I can say that having had millions of dollars 
taken out of our public school institutions and universities in 
Georgia.
    There are over 122,000 adults in my district alone, Georgia 
7th, that qualify for some form of student debt forgiveness 
under the President's plan, and I believe that this number 
would not be nearly as high if we did more in Congress, my 
colleagues and I, to lower the cost of college, while also 
making sure that students are made aware of, and able to 
consistently follow other opportunities that are out there in 
order for them to become successful.
    Programs offered by IBEW Local 613 at the Atlanta JATC 
Electrical Training Center, in my district, provide students 
with the opportunity to do a lot of on-the-job training, 
learning and getting paid a good wage at the same time. First 
year inside wiremen and construction electrician apprentices, 
get paid about $14.00 or $15.00 an hour, and they can expect to 
earn over $34.00 an hour after graduating from this program.
    We should be doing more to expand these opportunities by 
reauthorizing the National Apprenticeship Act, and taking real 
steps to ensure that every American knows that these are viable 
paths of success for them.
    Dr. Debroy, I have two questions for you today. Most 
registered apprenticeship programs utilize a skills-based 
assessment when onboarding an apprentice with some competency-
based training as a means of education. In your testimony, 
which I have read, you mentioned that nearly 40 percent of the 
workers entering new registered apprenticeship programs are 
going into high wage jobs that historically require a 
bachelor's degree, and that is an incredible statistic.
    Would you agree that registered apprenticeships are 
considered a skills-based hiring approach?
    Ms. Debroy. Thank you so much for the question. Yes. 
Absolutely apprenticeships are a critical lever available to 
employers to bring--a skills-based approach to their hiring.
    Mrs. McBath. Thank you. How can employers utilize 
registered apprenticeship programs when adopting skills-based 
hiring practices? If you really expound upon that because I am 
a huge proponent of what we are talking about today. I have a 
district in Georgia that is a lot of first--and second-
generation immigrants.
    A large number of my constituents were born outside of the 
United States, so this is really important for my constituents, 
so that they too are able to really be able to be economically 
successful.
    Ms. Debroy. Absolutely. Apprenticeships are really a time-
tested way of offering employers a reliable pipeline of talent 
that is skilled. To your point, we have seen in the data since 
2010 that registered apprenticeships have expanded in terms of 
what types of jobs they are preparing workers for. We have seen 
them expand to 100 new roles in the US labor market, and 
further, we see that they are actually implementing informal 
apprenticeships as well to an additional 200 roles on top of 
that.
    I think what is also important to understand in the data is 
that by opening up these new roles to apprenticeship 
opportunities, they are actually attracting a much more diverse 
workforce as well. We are seeing increased opportunities for 
workers of color, as well as women, into a number of these 
positions that have historically not been available to workers 
who have not gone to college.
    These positions include jobs in healthcare, in tech, in 
advanced manufacturing and other sectors as well.
    Mrs. McBath. Thank you so much. I appreciate it, and I 
yield back the balance of my time.
    Mr. Owens. Thank you. I would like to recognize for 5 
minutes, Mr. Allen.
    Mr. Allen. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you for being 
with us today. This is some good information that we need to 
pass on to the entire country. I had the privilege to grow up 
on a small farm and as most young Georgians did prior to 1970, 
I learned many skills growing up on that farm like operating 
equipment, masonry, concrete welding, and carpentry.
    I did that starting at a very young age. I was able to pay 
my way through college by working as a welder in a large 
fabricating plant, and of course I attended a very fine 
architecture and engineering college. My folks first ownership 
opportunity in the construction industry was with a second 
generation general contractor, founded by my mentor for many, 
many years who had a sixth grade education, and was one of the 
most successful. He was an icon in the community, a very 
successful business person.
    He, like most young people that grew up in the great 
depression. He had to go to work and help support his family. 
Dr. Smith, as employers in Georgia, and across the country are 
struggling to find workers, it is time to acknowledge that a 
college degree is not always a good measure for what a worker 
can bring to the table.
    In fact, I will add this, the majority of my--in the 
construction business, my subcontractors grew up through the 
trades, and they became entrepreneurs and formed their own 
businesses, and they employed hundreds of people. They were 
able to learn quickly their passion.
    We need to support employers who want to find qualified job 
candidates through skills-based hiring. In fact, nearly two-
thirds of Americans aged 25 and older do not possess a 
bachelor's degree, yet society has perpetrated this idea that a 
college degree is the only pathway to the middle class, and a 
good paying job.
    Can you explain how to use the preemployment skills 
assessments can help employers remove degree barriers and give 
all workers a fair chance to compete, and the respect they 
deserve?
    Mr. Smith. Thank you for the question, Representative 
Allen. I think for every job there are a set of skills that 
somebody needs, and they can get those skills from multiple 
different places. You can get them from colleges. You can get 
them from vocational schools.
    There are some schools you can get from watching videos on 
YouTube. As long as they have the right skills for the job, and 
they can pass a reasonable assessment of them, I think that 
makes them a good candidate, and they should at least be 
considered for the job regardless of educational background.
    Mr. Allen. In your testimony you said 78 percent of H.R. 
professionals believe the quality of their hires has improved 
due to use of preemployment skills assessments. However, you 
also mentioned that many employers are not taking advantage of 
them, one reason being a fear of lawsuits or penalties from the 
Equal Employment Opportunity Commission.
    Would you like to expand on that should EEOC provide more 
technical assistance to employers to help them shift to skills-
based hiring through the use of assessments?
    Mr. Smith. Yes. We would like the EEOC to provide some 
assistance on the front end, so organizations are vetted, 
getting the thumbs up from the EEOC if they have done the 
validation of their tests properly.
    Mr. Allen. Employers would be interested in receiving this 
help?
    Mr. Smith. Yes. The employers that we have talked to, they 
would be interested in receiving this help, and I think it 
would help many organizations get over the fear of using the 
preemployment assessment.
    Mr. Allen. Mr. Healey, last Congress I joined my 
colleagues, Elise Stefanik, Michelle Steel, Julia Letlow in 
introducing the Validate Prior Learning to Accelerate 
Employment Act. The initial legislation is to accelerate job 
seekers. Do you agree that this would be a good update to the 
law?
    Mr. Healey. Congressman, I do agree. I think any 
opportunity again where we can focus subjectively on skills and 
remove barriers creates standards around that so that companies 
can match demand with existing talent that's out there. We 
know, and my fellow experts here have confirmed that there is 
an inordinate number of amazing talents out there that are 
seeking opportunities, so I do agree.
    Mr. Allen. Thank you. I am out of time, but I do have 
additional questions about WIOA and some of the things they 
need to be doing to assess skills, and I will submit those in 
writing. Mr. Chairman, I yield back.
    Mr. Owens. Thank you. I would like to recognize for 5 
minutes, Ms. Hayes.
    Mrs. Hayes. Thank you. We actually agree on this topic that 
there is more than one way to be successful. I think Democrats 
have been saying that all along. We think that we need to have 
multiple pathways for opportunity, and that there are multiple 
avenues for success. I would be the first to say that. I was a 
high school teacher for 15 years, actually National Teacher of 
the Year, and I know that college is not for everyone, so there 
is no dividing line here.
    Democrats support the idea of apprenticeships, of workforce 
training opportunities, and we have been completely on board 
with this issue from the very beginning, but I welcome this 
conversation today. It is very important to encourage students 
to pursue whatever pathway will present the most amount of 
success for them, whether it be higher education or workforce 
opportunities , and expose them to those opportunities, and the 
realities of the job market.
    The trades and skilled labor offer career assistance 
directly out of high school, as well as the opportunity to 
learn as you go through apprenticeship programs, which would be 
lifesavers for many of the students that once sat in front of 
me.
    In Connecticut, 4,400 advanced manufacturing companies 
employ more than 161,000 workers. My district is home to one-
fifth of that workforce, so I am definitely supportive of these 
initiatives. More and more out of State companies are also 
moving to Connecticut because of the existing workforce in the 
aerospace and defense industries, and the potential to grow.
    This spring, two manufacturers in the housing sector 
announced new facilities in Connecticut, citing the talent pool 
available in the State. Additionally, this year Connecticut 
introduced the state's manufacturing strategic plan, with the 
vision of increasing manufacturing employment to 235,000 by 
2033. Last Congress, the House passed the Workforce Innovation 
and Opportunity Act, which would have reauthorized Federal 
programs to support workforce development efforts and 
transition to skills-based hiring.
    Unfortunately, the Senate did not take up our legislation, 
but we will continue to work on this, and I think we all 
agree.--I also think that these programs have to be accompanied 
with both funding and transparency to make sure that we are 
doing them correctly.
    Dr. Debroy, through Opportunity at Work, we have helped 
businesses implement skills-based hiring in their employment 
processes. You have acknowledged that removing formal education 
requirements is a first step to facilitating hiring through 
skills obtained through alternate routes. In your experience, 
what is the most common obstacle employers face when trying to 
adopt skills-based learning, and what can the Federal 
Government do to remove those barriers?
    Ms. Debroy. Thank you so much for your question, and for 
your remarks. There are a number of ways that we could think 
about actually supporting businesses to do this work because it 
is a different method from what many of them are accustomed to. 
I actually want to start by talking about our small and medium-
sized businesses.
    They employ 60 percent of STARs today. In fact, 43 percent 
of STARs are actually employed by a business with fewer than 
100 employees. For many of them, shifting these methods is 
actually quite difficult. Through WIOA, we actually have an 
opportunity to increase services to businesses that could 
support them in making these shifts within their own 
organizations.
    Mrs. Hayes. Thank you. Dr. Kimbrough, you mentioned the 
utilization of a LinkedIn skills assessment. Could you 
elaborate further on what skills are being assessed through 
those evaluations, and how they may be used for different 
occupations?
    Ms. Kimbrough. Yes. Thank you for the question, 
Congresswoman Hayes. We have at Linkedin the ability for 
members to put up to 50 skills on their profile, and they can 
then be--we encourage them to take skill assessments of some of 
the top skills that they rank on their profile.
    If they choose, they can post the results of that skill 
assessment. Now the benefit of the skill assessment is that we 
are actually in an economy where frankly skills are changing. I 
can look back 5 years and see what the skills were required for 
certain occupations and see what they require now based on job 
postings, or based on what people who are in that job actually 
say that they can do, and it is changing.
    Digital skills are evolving. As a result, what we see is 
that it is critical to kind of continually acquire these skills 
because we do not know what the future roles will be.
    Mrs. Hayes. Thank you. One of the things I used to say to 
my students is, tell me what you are good at, and we will 
figure out the job that is best for you, so I welcome this 
conversation, and I encourage anything that we can do to make 
sure that my kids have jobs of the future. I yield back, thank 
you.
    Mr. Owens. Thank you. I now recognize for 5 minutes, Mr. 
Banks.
    Mr. Banks. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Dr. Smith, in July 
2020, President Trump issued an executive order overhauling the 
Federal Government's hiring practices to prioritize skills over 
college degrees. From a private sector perspective, can you 
describe what was meaningful about that executive order, maybe 
even talk about some of the lessons learned?
    Mr. Smith. Thank you for the question, Representative 
Banks. I do not know that I can speak to the specific results 
of the change in the legislation from President Trump. We have 
seen a shift over time from less organizations demanding 
college degrees. I do not know that I have a good answer for 
the----
    Mr. Banks. It would appear from your perspective did it 
appear to make a difference? If it was July 2020, I suppose 
there was not that much time that it was in effect, although it 
appears that the Biden administration has kept the executive 
order in place from my perspective. I do not know if the rest 
of you would agree with that, but it appears that that was a 
pivotal point, and a change that--one thing that this 
administration kept into effect from the last is that anybody 
else?
    Ms. Kimbrough. If I may, I would just add ancillary point 
that we are indeed seeing an increasing number of roles on our 
platform that do not require a college degree, and it was 
roughly 8 percent of roles did not require a college degree 
before the pandemic, and now it is about 20 percent, so it is 
increasing.
    Mr. Banks. Anybody else?
    Mr. Healey. I would offer an insight as a technology 
employer. Skills-based hiring, and of course removing those 
requirements that you mentioned, I think ultimately it just 
allows insurers more talents to apply for perspective roles and 
enter the workforce. That is very important. This means that we 
of course can grow talents, employees, colleagues when they 
join SAP.
    We also look at it not simply for identifying talents that 
we would not necessarily look for, but also career growth 
opportunities, because the talent and the skills are universal. 
The question is what are the skills that are necessary to bring 
someone into an organization like SAP, No. 1.
    Then No. 2, what are the skills that are necessary to take 
future jobs that may not exist? It is skills about, you know, 
transferable skills I would say, and also this learning mindset 
and curiosity, which in and of itself is an important skillset.
    Mr. Banks. I mean the reason I ask is because often times 
the private sector follows public sector, in decisions like 
these, and this appears to be a very significant change from 
the last administration. This administration has kept in effect 
that the private sector is following. I think that is what you 
are describing, what you are agreeing with.
    Dr. Kimbrough, does Linkedin have a public sector division 
within the company that talks about hiring practices, and?
    Ms. Kimbrough. Thank you. Congressman Banks, I know that we 
have employees at Linkedin that are focused on the public 
sector, but I would have to get back to you to give you an 
accurate answer.
    Mr. Banks. I did not expect that you might be able to 
answer this question, but any idea does the administration have 
any dialog at all? This administration, former administrations 
with Linked in on practices and strategies where you have an 
avenue to give them feedback?
    Ms. Kimbrough. I think I would have to followup with you on 
that, or have our team followup with you on that.
    Mr. Banks. Yes. That is fair. That is all I have. Very 
important conversation, we appreciate all of you being here 
today. I yield back.
    Mr. Owens. Thank you. I would like to recognize for 5 
minutes, Ms. Manning. Norcross. Mr. Wilson. Okay. Mr. Norcross, 
all right.
    Mr. Norcross. Thank you, Chairman. I have to agree with my 
colleagues, this is probably one of the most cooperative 
conversations we have had in here, and I am really glad to see 
it because I think we all can understand that the idea of 
having a job, a career is extremely important to people for 
literally their life.
    One of the narratives that you have talked about today, and 
quite frankly we hear is in order to make it in America you 
have to go to a 4-year school. That is great. Certainly, I 
would want to make sure my doctor, medical doctor has gone 
there, but the idea of getting ready for employment, and only 
going to college leaves out, what you talked about, so many 
people.
    I myself, went to the other 4-year school. I did an 
apprenticeship. I speak from a little bit of history here, and 
the reason being is that, quite frankly, parents are the first 
line of trying to encourage their kids to pursue a career or a 
job. What I have heard so often is the idea of a child who is 
not pursuing college, they go to a vocational school because 
they could not do it. They are not quite as smart.
    That narrative is out there, and quite frankly, parents 
have to give their children permission to pursue an area of 
their career that they want to go, always striving to do 
better. The idea of doing better is only through college, I 
think is something that I am continuing to hear here.
    That permission to pursue a career that works for the 
individual that he can take care of his family is extremely 
important, and this is why skills. You have hit the nail on the 
head. This is where I want to ask a couple of questions. You 
brought up transferable. We used to call it portability, but 
skill is just a word. What particular skills we are talking 
about, and whether it is a registered apprenticeship, and 
registered equals an assessment that there are standards.
    If you have an unregistered program, that is great. The 
difference between those two is when you are trying to 
describe, you get your first job and it is an apprenticeship 
program, but if it follows another standard, what does that 
mean to your next employer if they do not know what it is?
    This is the question I want to pursue is, whether it is an 
apprenticeship or skills, how do we set those standards? Dr. 
Kimbrough, if you could touch base on that, and how do you fit 
that into your assessments?
    Ms. Kimbrough. Yes. Thank you so much for the question, 
Congressman Norcross. What I would say is we have right now at 
Linkedin roughly 40,000 skills, a sort of a taxonomy of skills. 
We can see over time how skills are changing as I mentioned 
before, which is quite interesting.
    We also think about skills in different categories, so 
there are soft skills that to use your word portability, or 
transferability, that go with you through your whole life as 
you develop them and refine them, so think of communication 
management, leadership, these are all skills that are highly 
sought after in job descriptions.
    Then there are of course, business skills and Microsoft 
Word or PowerPoint kind of skill, and then there are the 
digital skills, which are evolving relatively quickly depending 
on the coding, or if you are an online marketing expert. We see 
different buckets of skills.
    To answer your question, I would say all of these different 
buckets are evolving at different paces, but all of them are 
extremely important to seeing anyone survive--or, I should say 
survive, succeed, excuse me, in their career.
    Mr. Norcross. Yes, and I guess that is one of the 
challenges is once we describe what the skillset is A, did you 
really do it? People like to embellish, and that is always 
going to be an issue, especially you are an employer. You are 
assuming, rightfully or wrong, that what you are telling us is 
truthful.
    How do we go through that because if you graduate from a 
registered program, there is a certificate.
    Ms. Kimbrough. Yes. I understand your question now. Well, 
there are a couple of ways on Linkedin that people can sort of, 
I would say verify or validate their skills. One is through 
endorsements, which has long been a feature on the platform, 
which allows someone who is like your first connection, who 
truly knows you, to say I worked with this person. I observed 
them for 7 years performing this skill.
    Generally, because your reputation is on the line you are 
going to be truthful about the accuracy and the proficiency. 
The other way is there are skill assessments on Linkedin. Those 
do exist, and people can take them. There is a range of skill 
assessments, not for all 40,000 skills, but there is a range of 
them.
    Mr. Norcross. No, but the idea of heading this way, the 
other side of the coin is the employer when they are looking 
for it. We have been trained that it is your college, it is 
better than a skillset. The term bias is not where I am going, 
but an inclination that you want to hire somebody who has a 4-
year degree versus somebody who has outstanding skills.
    How do we address that? I mean you talked about it in a 
couple different ways, but how do we get employers to say, it 
is what job you can do well, not necessarily what piece of 
paper you carry with you.
    Mr. Healey. Thank you for the question, Congressman 
Norcross. I think it is a very important one, and I will 
illustrate one example that we have used in our labs out in 
California. We have labs in Pennsylvania, and in the Midwest as 
well. We implemented a blind screening process focused 
specifically on the skills.
    The skill, the knowledge skill requirements of the role, 
but also the skills of the candidates. In parallel with a 
rotation----
    Mr. Norcross. I am sorry, I would love to followup with you 
offline here, my time is ending, so thank you for indulging me.
    Mr. Healey. Okay. Sure.
    Mr. Owens. I appreciate that. I recognize for 5 minutes Mr. 
Burlison.
    Mr. Burlison. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Dr. Debroy, I want 
to kind of go in a different direction. I think it is clear 
that employers, and it is good to see that employers are re-
thinking the way they hire people, and that they are re-
thinking the value of college degrees.
    My question is, is there any research done to evaluate the 
impacts, the economic impact on individuals when states pass 
occupational licensing laws that require a college degree? For 
example in Missouri, we had to fight for years to get African 
hair braiding separated from the cosmetology license. 
Ironically, students were being forced to pay a lot of money 
and go to school for 18 months or more to get a degree that did 
not even teach them how to braid hair, and yet the State was 
requiring that.
    There are numerous examples across the country. I will stop 
ranting and just kind of ask that question. What is the impact 
of all these occupational licensing laws that require some 
education that may not be important?
    Ms. Debroy. Thank you so much for the question. On the 
occupational licensing landscape, that is outside the domain of 
my expertise. I will say though that there are a range of 
different credentials in the United States. There are more than 
a million of them, in fact. The impact that they have in 
signaling to employers that a worker has skills varies so much.
    I think one of the important pieces of the conversation 
that is getting picked up right now is, how do we actually 
measure skill as opposed to a credential? A lot of the 
conversation today, I would say, is focused on how do we think 
about the skills of an individual, and matching the skills of 
an individual to the skills required of the job? Thank you.
    Mr. Burlison. Right. Yes. Thank you for answering that. As 
the policy of the United States, at the Federal Government and 
the State level is to subsidize universities, which I think has 
created the dynamic that we have today where we have too few 
people in the trades, and skills based, and we have a lot of 
people with philosophy degrees, myself included, right?
    We got to this point because we funded it. We subsidized 
the universities, and then we do it directly, and then we fund 
the scholarships, and we fund the grants and the loans and 
everything like that, right? Then we create laws that say if 
you want to be an interior designer and pick the color of the 
paint on the wall, you better go to college.
    Well, at the end of the day it causes economic harm to 
consumers because now I have got to pay just for somebody to 
help me pick color pallets, I have got to pay for their college 
degree. I think thinks are moving in an interesting direction. 
Coming from the IT sector there was a lot of value that 
companies like Cerner Oracle that I worked for, that they saw 
in paying for on demand training.
    Online training, things like pleural site became available, 
tools like Linkedin Learning was an option as an employee, and 
it opens up employees to a vast opportunity to not only learn 
how to do their job but learn how to do the job they want to 
transition to. With that in mind, I want to ask a question of 
Dr. Kimbrough. Should we really rethink where we are sending 
money? Should we rethink that perhaps maybe we could grant tax 
incentives for individuals that want to pay for online learning 
tools that may not be at a university level?
    Ms. Kimbrough. Yes. Thank you, Congressman Burlison. I 
would say first off what we see in our own data is that more 
and more workers are embracing the idea of investing in 
themselves and learning, whether it is in an online format, or 
they are looking for opportunities, consume information, 
education themselves and skill themselves in any form they can.
    I would actually say that I think it is beyond the scope of 
my expertise to say what Congress should determine it should 
fund, but we definitely would support the idea of broadening 
the pathways, the plurality of pathways for access, and not 
creating barriers.
    As an economist, I would tell you it is incredibly 
inefficient to have barriers, you know, unnecessary barriers.
    Mr. Burlison. Right. For example, are education savings 
accounts, are they eligible to spend money on some of these, 
you know, trainings?
    Ms. Kimbrough. I do not know that. I would have to get back 
to you.
    Mr. Burlison. Okay. Thank you. My time has expired. Thank 
you.
    Mr. Owens. Thank you. I would like to recognize myself for 
5 minutes. I am sorry. I would like to recognize for 5 minutes 
Ms. Bonamici.
    Ms. Bonamici. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I am grateful for 
this discussion, thank you for your testimony, everyone. I hope 
this hearing will shed some light on how we can incorporate 
quality, opportunity, and transparency for workers and 
employers into workforce development.
    Listening to my former colleague, my colleague on the other 
side of the aisle who just spoke, reminds me of the importance 
of really cracking down on these for-profit institutions that 
promise skills and then do not deliver. I frequently talk about 
the importance of having a path for everyone, and as a member 
of this committee, as a member of my community, as a 
policymaker, I understand that not everyone is on the same 
path.
    I do want to emphasize that the committee's focus on 
credentials and competencies and skills should not come at the 
expense of discussions about college affordability. That needs 
to be part of the conversation as well. Colleagues on both 
sides of the aisle with college degrees can attest to the value 
of their education, and our Nation's students and workers 
thrive when they actually have a real choice between getting an 
affordable, debt free 4-year degree, or entering a workforce 
training program.
    This should be a choice, not a decision made because 
college is not affordable. Dr. Kimbrough, our economy is 
evolving rapidly. New jobs are becoming available daily for 
workers in existing in emerging industries, and we are in a 
pretty exciting time, and an opportunity rich moment for job 
seekers and employers.
    I am interested in learning more about how this changing 
job market will affect skills-based hiring. Do you anticipate 
that the credentials available to workers today will change as 
job opportunities change? If so, how?
    How can Federal policies such as the Workforce Innovation 
and Opportunity Act be updated? We need to improve credential 
transparency, provide some sort of baseline quality metric for 
credentials, transferability for example, of credentials is 
important to keep up with the pace of technology. Collecting 
data about the utility of micro credentials.
    Ms. Kimbrough. Thank you, Congresswoman, for the question. 
To the first part of your question, I would say as we look over 
time, we just see how quickly roles are changing. There are 
roles now on our platform that did not exist a decade ago. The 
skills that are required for these roles are also kind of 
sprouting up anew.
    It really is a moment of incredible change, which makes 
skills all the more important to kind of match people. There 
are employers who are creating roles where they are not quite 
even sure of what the skills are that they require because 
things are changing so rapidly. I see some nodding heads from 
my fellow panelists.
    I would say we absolutely need to focus on the idea that 
skills are evolving over time, and we need to provide people 
changes to update and grow those skills in a continuous 
fashion. We see in our own platform that we have some 40,000 
skills, and people at any given time are updating those skills 
in real time.
    To answer your other question about you now, more from a 
policy perspective, I would say at Linkedin we support WIOA, 
and feel that promoting a skills first approach should be a 
central tenet of any reauthorization of WIOA, and I do think 
that including awareness, including encouragement of public and 
private sector employers to use skills first approaches would 
be vastly appreciated.
    Ms. Bonamici. I appreciate that. Thank you. A few years 
ago, a very large tech company in this country did a survey of 
the skills that they are looking for in employees. The 
technical skills were actually at the bottom of the list, and 
at the top of the list were things like communication, 
collaboration, empathy, the ability to work on a team.
    I just want to emphasize that those soft skills are really 
critical as well. We cannot lose sight of that. The bipartisan 
National Apprenticeship Act is a blueprint for how employers 
can use skills-based assessments to determine the readiness of 
apprentices for jobs for which they are hired, and last year, I 
helped secure funding for a registered apprenticeship and a 
pre-apprenticeship program in northwest Oregon called United We 
Heal Training Trust.
    It provides workers with personal and professional 
development opportunities, allows employees to recruit and 
retain skilled talent, but also improves the quality of 
training for workers. Dr. Debroy, how can registered 
apprenticeship and pre-apprenticeship programs like United We 
Heal leverage skills-based hiring practices in recruiting and 
hiring workers, particularly workers from underserved 
communities?
    Ms. Debroy. Thank you so much for the question. 
Apprenticeships are a really important way that employees can 
actually implement skills-based hiring practices. I think what 
is really interesting to look at in the data is what this lever 
has been able to accomplish for a lot of employers who are 
deploying it.
    What we see is much more diverse pipelines of candidates 
entering these apprenticeship programs than we have 
traditionally found in those occupations. It is actually 
bearing out what we thought could happen with apprenticeships 
to actually diversify a lot of occupations that have not 
traditionally seen workers who are women, workers who are 
people of color, at the same rates as other workers. Thank you.
    Ms. Bonamici. I appreciate that. My time has expired. I 
yield back. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    Mr. Owens. Thank you, Ms. Bonamici, thank you so much. I 
would like to recognize myself for 5 minutes. First of all, I 
would like to disagree with the Ranking Member. This is a very 
exciting moment, really that we have such bipartisanship on 
this. The fact that we are now talking to innovators in terms 
of how to really disrupt this whole process of getting our 
workforce going, very timely.
    I think the fact that the American way is all about not 
having caps, and we have talked about the glass ceiling cap, we 
have seen the boardroom. Paper cap, it is the first time I have 
heard this one, but it is now time decades later finally get to 
it and I appreciate that in a big way. I want to thank you guys 
again.
    Mr. Healey, I believe the skills-based hiring will disrupt 
traditional higher education, allowing new learning providers 
to compete as alternative pathways for the same types of jobs. 
How do you think higher education should adapt to a more 
competitive landscape, and greater focus on job relevant 
skills?
    Mr. Healey. Thank you for the question, Congressman Owens. 
Higher Ed, colleges and universities all need to evolve their 
curriculum. All need to evolve their approach and incorporate 
practical-based training into the academic coursework. It is 
not just academic course work, but it is going to be practical 
based skills training as well.
    You know I referenced earlier our university alliance 
program as one such example where we partner with partner 
institutions, and literally hand our technology training and 
incorporate that into classes. Consumers who are going to 
colleges and universities, and junior colleges, are expecting 
that the product continue to evolve.
    I think that in concert obviously with public private, this 
will ensure that more university-based hires are going to be 
prepared with practical skills. This would just be a few 
thoughts.
    Mr. Owens. Okay. Thank you. Dr. Kimbrough, I thought of 
something that you said earlier, I think kind of highlights 
what we're talking about, skills are everywhere and they all 
matter, and that is such a powerful statement, and I am glad 
literally we are finally acknowledging that across the board.
    To you, Dr. Kimbrough, I am encouraged by what you shared 
with us about the rise of skill-based learning and hiring. Last 
December, Utah moved to drop the bachelor degree requirements 
from 98 percent of the State government jobs. From your 
testimony it indicates that roughly four in five job postings 
still require degrees.
    What would it take for more companies to look beyond the 
college degree as the only way for workers to gain in demand 
skills, and what motivated Linkedin interest toward shifting 
toward a skill-based approach?
    Ms. Kimbrough. Thank you so much for that question. You are 
absolutely correct. There are right now about one in five jobs 
on our platform at Linkedin that do not require a college 
degree, but it is an encouraging trend. There was a point just 
before the pandemic when it was less than 10 percent of the 
jobs required--did not require a college degree.
    We have seen an encouraging trend, a positive momentum. We 
also see now currently that about 45 percent of hirers on our 
platform are using skills as a way to source and identify 
potential candidates for roles. This is also up significantly 
from the prior year.
    We see this very positive momentum of adoption, but I think 
it is going to take time. It is a major collective mind shift 
that we have to undergo, and a behavioral change that we have 
to go through in order to actually see this take root fully and 
broadly across our economy, but I am absolutely convinced that 
it is something that will benefit workers and businesses, and 
the broader economy.
    If I may quickly answer your last question, what made 
Linkedin do this? Well, Linkedin has a vision of creating 
economic opportunity for every member of the global workforce, 
and the emphasis being on every means that we want to be a 
platform for every member regardless of skill.
    Mr. Owens. Thank you. I am running out of time. I guess I 
will just say this. We definitely have seen a paradigm shift, 
and I think it is exciting for us on this side wanting to be 
innovative legislators to talk to innovators to how to make 
sure this paradigm shift fits in a way that we can bring so 
many more millions of Americans into building a dream, so thank 
you so much for that. I am going to recognize for 5 minutes 
Mrs. Stevens, thank you.
    Ms. Stevens. Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you to 
witnesses for this hearing on the Competencies Over Degrees: 
Transitioning to a Skills-Based Economy. We are all about 
skills in Michigan, and I certainly hear from businesses, small 
businesses, on the regular who are trying to hire a diverse, 
inclusive and skilled workforce about a dog fight for talent.
    We are in a race, given the incredible job growth that the 
Biden administration has overseen, and as we continue to 
achieve these record setting recovery milestones, it is vital 
that we ensure such growth is equitable, and includes a path to 
economic prosperity for as many hardworking Americans as 
possible.
    This certainly can be achieved by passing Ranking Member 
Bobby Scott's National Apprenticeship Act of 2023, a bipartisan 
bill that invests more than 3.85 billion over 5 years to 
increase access to registered apprenticeships, youth 
apprenticeships, and pre-apprenticeships.
    We are excited about apprenticeships, and the registered 
apprenticeship program is the best tool in our toolbox for 
skills development. It will get students away from this debt 
culture, earn as you learn, it is very exciting stuff.
    Now, this word came up about taxonomy, okay, and I have a 
confession because I worked with apprenticeship programs, but I 
also worked for Obama's National Network for Manufacturing 
Innovation, and we did this great thing in this lab I was in 
overseeing, workforce development to do the taxonomy for 
digital manufacturing jobs.
    I got Healey here, Mr. Healey with SAP, all this incredible 
innovation going on, and software and this and that. I do not 
know how long you have been with the company sir, but you have 
probably seen them through a lot, the company has.
    I mean how were you, when the digital revolution hit, how 
was SAP taking your existing workforce, getting them access to 
skills, and then how were you communicating these new jobs on 
these platforms that exist, and then with the community 
colleges and the schools, and all this and that so we could 
make sure we have these workers in IoT.
    Mr. Healey. Thank you, Congresswoman Stevens. It is an 
incredible pertinent point. SAP is going through one of the 
largest skills transformations in our 50-year existence.
    Ms. Stevens. Now you have got AI.
    Mr. Healey. Now I have got AI, so you are absolutely right. 
To make the journey from on prime software to cloud, the 
disruption that cloud has had on customers, the expectations 
for consumers. When you talk about generative AI as well, so we 
are embarking on a workforce transmission plan not only across 
107,000 colleagues, but within the United States, and it is 
back to skills.
    Ms. Stevens. You have got to look at these apprenticeships 
too. I mean look, this is a topic I have engaged on for a long 
time, and no one is here to finger point. I mean we have got to 
succeed because we have got the trained workforce of the future 
today. It is continual learning.
    Now we have got Dr. Debroy here, and I want to bring you 
into this because can you talk about this relationship between 
the registered apprenticeship program and skills-based hiring?
    Ms. Debroy. Absolutely. Registered apprenticeships are a 
critical lever available to employers to actually deploy 
skills-based hiring and hire workers based on skill. I want to 
go back to a point you made earlier because I think one of the 
moments that is in front of us is actually an opportunity to 
actually rethink how we collect data about our workforce in 
this country.
    We actually need a 21st century Federal workforce data 
infrastructure to meet the needs of how fast skills are 
changing in the US labor market.
    Ms. Stevens. I mean you are right, though. I mean we do, 
and it needs to evolve, and it has got to be alive, and 
inputted into, and it is not just that you get your skill and 
you are done. That is the beauty of these apprenticeships, and 
that is the beauty of, we have got digital, but we have got 
analogue too.
    We are not ever going to get rid of the hard skills. The 
painter is still going to paint. The road paver is still going 
to pave. I do not care what kind of robot you have, what kind 
of AI you have, come to Michigan and see my building trades in 
action. It is real. All right, thank you. I am over time. I 
yield back.
    Mr. Owens. Thank you. I would like to recognize for 5 
minutes Mr. DeSaulnier.
    Mr. DeSaulnier. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you, 
Congresswoman for your passion and background on this. She is 
being understated today. Dr. Debroy, first of all, I want to 
acknowledge your resume. You went to the two best public 
universities in the country, the world, Go Bears, Go Blue.
    I represent a part of the San Francisco Bay area that has 
tech in the East Bay but is also heavily industrialized. We 
have had real challenges in the industrial sector with five 
refineries, chemical plants, manufacturing, although that is 
trying to rebound. In California, I led a task force in the 
legislature, bipartisan, because we had eliminated a lot of our 
career tech infrastructure.
    It was interesting going around the State and seeing how 
regionally we had gone away from that. We had heavily bought on 
the Bay Area that knowledge-based economy. Everybody was going 
to get a bachelor's degree, and the world had changed.
    We have made really good progress on a bipartisan level in 
California, building back partnerships, career tech, and now 
with community college districts. The State California Building 
and Construction Trades has changed dramatically. 80 percent of 
their members are minority and women. I was recently with them 
in a very disadvantaged community, you will remember this, 
Richmond, where we have got apprenticeship programs where kids 
from poverty are getting really good jobs in the industrial 
sector right out of college.
    125, $150,000.00 a year, they are deliberately looking for 
kids in need opportunities. I spent a lot of time with the 
Labor Institute at Berkeley and Michigan to talk to your folks. 
This is a real partnership, but employers are the ones who are 
pushing the hardest because they need the skilled workforce, 
and they need it generationally at a time when the demographics 
are a challenge.
    The needs on energy transition, and since there are not a 
lot of deep-water ports on the west coast, it means Puget 
Sound, Long Beach and LA and San Francisco. Trying to do that 
is very important for the global and the national economy.
    It is sort of a missing part of our discussion here on how 
do we rebuild these skills knowing that we are going to have 
energy transition for two or three generations of the 
workforce, and we are going to have retrain those folks. We had 
to train them in the first place, but we have to retrain them 
as well.
    You want to train those IBW and boilermakers, but you have 
got to get ready for they're going to be doing different work 
over this transition. Can you just speak about that and your 
experience?
    Ms. Debroy. Absolutely. I will actually reference economic 
history in responding to your question because we are at a 
moment of transformation, and if we were to look to the past to 
kind of understand what might be coming in the future, I think 
we are sitting at a moment where there will be a proliferation 
of jobs in the next decade, two decades, that we do not yet 
know much about.
    These are going to be new world occupations that we will 
have to figure out how to train a workforce for. I think what 
is exciting in looking at the data is that there are 70 million 
workers who are skilled through alternative roots who are 
building skills in their jobs today who could, you know, 
transfer a lot of those skills into the newer jobs that are 
coming online.
    I think how we now start to think about training programs 
to support them to make those transitions effectively and 
efficiently, is a really important question for communities. To 
your point, what is really interesting to study across the 
United States is regionally how many of these communities are 
performing for workers varies.
    How we actually help communities recognize and understand 
where are their pockets in their workforce who are prepared to 
make these transitions immediately if they were given access to 
them, is a really important question. Another really important 
question is how do we take the workforce we currently have and 
upskill them in the specific skills they need for these new 
jobs that are entering our regions.
    Mr. DeSaulnier. That is really important, and Dr. 
Kimbrough, if we have any time, so succinctly, and a very big 
question. The cultural problem, and I love this hearing, there 
is a place for bachelor's degrees, master's degrees, doctorate 
degrees, but as people who work for a living have told me, both 
union and nonunion, it is about RESPECT. How do you get kids to 
choose the right career, have their choices, and have that 
competency?
    The cultural problem is a big thing. We want to value 
higher education, but it is not for everybody, and people who 
work with their hands deserve the same infrastructure and 
respect. Can you speak to that briefly?
    Ms. Debroy. Sure. I think it is actually why it is really 
important to understand the biases that we bring to our 
language. A lot of our language about the American workforce is 
deficit based. We think it is important to bring a different 
narrative to workers who are gaining skills through many 
different pathways. It is why we have termed workers who have 
not gone to 4-year degree programs, STARs. They are workers who 
are skilled, but through alternative roots.
    Mr. DeSaulnier. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. A lot of good 
conversation, but I really appreciate this today.
    Mr. Owens. Thank you. I would like to recognize for 5 
minutes Mr. Good.
    Mr. Good. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you to our 
witnesses for being here. Dr. Kimbrough, in your testimony you 
eluded to how COVID-19 changed the workforce landscape. Can you 
elaborate a little bit on that?
    Ms. Kimbrough. Yes, thank you so much, Congressman Good. 
COVID-19 changed the workforce landscape in a number of ways. 
There were some short-term impacts and long-term impacts, but 
really briefly, the short-term impacts were obviously a very 
quick rise in unemployment that over time, you know, came back 
down.
    We saw many more Americans actually back at work, and we 
are now back at pre-pandemic levels. The long-term impacts were 
about where we work and how we work, and why we work, and we 
saw----
    Mr. Good. Just to clarify, I am sorry, you said we are back 
at pre-pandemic levels.
    Ms. Kimbrough. In our data, and actually also in BLS data, 
we see that labor force participation rates amongst Americans, 
prime aged Americans, aged 25 to 54, is back at about pre-
pandemic levels. We also see in our own data the rates at which 
people are being hired is about at pre-pandemic levels.
    Mr. Good. Do you see--what impacts do you still see though 
with the other health emergency finally, declared over. What 
challenges do you see, or impacts do you see on the economy 
that are beyond just the labor participation, which reports I 
have seen is that we have the lowest participation rate. We 
have got two or three million less Americans working than were 
working before the pandemic.
    Perhaps you could address that, but then also, what other 
impacts do you continue to see with the emergency declaration 
over?
    Ms. Kimbrough. Yes, thank you. The labor force 
participation rate that I was referring to limits it to just 
the age of what we call prime age working Americans, so age 25 
to 54, but there is a broader measure that includes people who 
are older than 54, young than 25, and that is probably what you 
have looked at, and so since we are both correct.
    You asked the question about----
    Mr. Good. Are there additional impacts?
    Ms. Kimbrough. Yes. Yes. Absolutely. Other additional 
impacts that we are seeing is just that the pace of change is 
accelerating since COVID. People have transitioned to lots of 
online work. There are online marketing specialists, that is a 
role that has sort of always been around but is now one of our 
top roles. It is on the platform.
    We saw a lot more trucking roles for example because there 
is so much more online shopping happening that people need 
these warehouses and storage centers, and have the goods 
delivered to their home. There are a lot of roles that are 
changing as a result of COVID. It is changing the job market in 
small and large ways.
    Mr. Good. Are you seeing an unwillingness to go back to in 
person work after folks have gotten used to working remotely?
    Ms. Kimbrough. I would say that people really have enjoyed 
the flexibility they get from remote and flexible work options, 
but----
    Mr. Good. Including if I may Federal employees who 80 
percent are working 1 day a week by the way in person.
    Ms. Kimbrough. We actually have quite, I would say, quite 
extensive data on remote and hybrid, and what we see is that 
employers are encouraging people to come back to the office. 
More and more job postings are for hybrid or full-time onsite, 
few are for remote.
    The remote opportunities are declining, but applicants are 
still overwhelmingly preferring to apply for remote roles.
    Mr. Good. Can you share any thoughts you have on what the 
impact of vaccine mandate--I was talking to a group of high 
school students yesterday who showed up at the capitol steps to 
meet with me, talked to them about how we fired--I use the term 
we loosely.
    We fired their parents because they did not get a vaccine. 
Can you talk about what you have seen the impact of vaccine 
mandate had on businesses?
    Ms. Kimbrough. I do not have a lot of data on that in our 
dataset. We did actually try to look at that back a few years 
ago, and we just did not have a lot of data. We were attempting 
to try to understand the degree to which, for example, job 
postings or employers were requiring mandates, but we did not 
have enough information.
    Mr. Good. How about the impact on the relaxed work 
requirements, verification requirements, the expanded subsidies 
available if you will to able bodied workers. How has the 
current welfare situation, the Federal subsistence situation, 
or even for that matter State supported statistics impacted 
employment today?
    Ms. Kimbrough. What the economic data, and this is again, 
this is not Linkedin data now. This would just be the economic 
data that I look at as an economist, seems to suggest is that 
there was a point at which Americans largely had a lot of 
excess savings, and that allowed them to consume more, shop 
more, it put pressure on the supply chains that were at the 
same time being constrained.
    I think most economists would say that excess savings is 
slowly being wound down.
    Mr. Good. Yes. If I may, you have got the 20 percent loss 
in retirement accounts, the depleted savings because of folks 
not working, combined with the massive 40 year high inflation, 
and then interest rates which are quickly crushing American's 
ability to buy homes, grocery prices, utility prices, gas 
prices, housing prices, crushing American people all related to 
the policies of this administration, and I yield back, Mr. 
Chairman.
    Mr. Owens. Thank you. I would like to recognize for 5 
minutes Ms. Wilson.
    Ms. Wilson. Thank you so much. Thank you for having this 
hearing today. I would like to try something new, so I am going 
to ask all of the witnesses if you will--I want to put this in 
the record, but I am going to ask you if you will answer me in 
writing to these questions, but it will be on the record.
    What are your own organizations? What leaders and 
innovators and credentialing and work-based learning doing to 
address the gap that exists in soft skills acquisition, such as 
team building, communication, collaboration, which are also in 
high demand by employers. That is No. 1.
    How can we begin, even before college, to foster 
collaboration between formal curriculum tracks and competencies 
credentialing in organizations like yours? My own experience 
with my 5,000 role model boys has shown that we cannot wait 
until students reach higher education.
    How would you propose collaborating with leaders in higher 
education, particularly at large, urban, public minority 
servicing institutions, and HBCUs so that they can benefit from 
your proposed models?
    Dr. Debroy, you highlighted that the current emphasis on 
formal education strips historically disadvantaged communities 
from job opportunities, 80 percent of Hispanic workers, 70 
percent of Blacks, and 75 percent of the rural workforce, as 
well as 70 percent of veterans. Would you share with us 
additional ways in which skills-based hiring could further 
improve the job prospects of historically disadvantaged groups?
    Ms. Debroy. Absolutely. There is quite a bit of racial 
segregation in our labor force today. In fact, if you look at 
the Black STAR population, workers who are black, have a high 
school diploma, do not have a 4-year college degree. What you 
will see is that they are actually concentrated in a really 
small subset of jobs.
    In fact, there are 25 jobs that account for 50 percent of 
Black STARs in this country. What I think skills-based hiring 
allows employers to do is actually think about how workers in a 
number of occupations that are lower or middle wage, are 
actually building skills that are transferable to higher wage 
occupations.
    Our study of 130 million transitions in the US labor market 
in the last 10 years actually suggests all of us make these 
transitions with our skills. Workers with a college degree, 
workers without a college degree. What we see though is that 
Black workers and Hispanic workers are not given access to 
skills-based transitions the same way as white workers.
    When they do get access to those jobs, they earn less than 
their white counterparts. We also see that for women when they 
do achieve that transition, they are also earning less. Skills-
based hiring is a really critical and important lever for 
employers to actually surface and find a lot of talent they 
seek today.
    I think it is imperative on us to actually think about this 
method to diversify our workforce across the labor market. 
Thank you for the question.
    Ms. Wilson. Mr. Healey, in your testimony you touted how 
the implementation of a blind screening resulted in the hiring 
of a more diverse class of developers, and your experience can 
help reduce potential biases across other industries. What 
other insights did you gain from the implementation of blind 
screening?
    Mr. Healey. Thank you for your question, Congresswoman 
Wilson. I do agree that blind screening as a process is a way 
to identify hidden talent, emerging talent, and is very 
effective. We ran such a process in our labs, SAP labs in 
California and used blind screening as a way, not only to 
identify talents that are often overlooked, but also as a way 
to rotate talent within our organization as well.
    Which became a part of our development program. This was 
very effective. We found that in our incoming class by unit 
using blind screening process, 50 percent of our talents were 
female, and the largest number of unrepresented minority talent 
as well into technology jobs that are traditionally overlooked.
    We are an advocate for that, and not only that--for 
identifying talent, but also for rotating the growing talent 
within our organization.
    Ms. Wilson. Thank you. I yield back. On record the 
question, thank you.
    Mr. Owens. Okay. Thank you. I would like to recognize for 5 
minutes Mr. Takano.
    Mr. Takano. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you to our 
witnesses for being here today. I welcome the opportunity this 
hearing presents to discuss competencies and skills-based 
hiring, as a concept. We have seen how governments and 
businesses alike are looking at innovative ways to promote 
skills-based hiring at both the Federal and local level.
    Often, businesses and employers look at a bachelor's degree 
as a guarantor of a certain level of literacy and numeracy. I 
have heard the word proxy, that a bachelor's degree is a proxy 
for a certain level of a set of competencies, but the reality 
is that not every profession or every occupation requires a 
bachelor's degree, and we have to find other ways.
    We have to look at ways to get past the idea of a 
bachelor's degree being a proxy in all cases. Now to be clear, 
I am not interested in bashing 4-year degrees. We still know 
that one of the surest ways to achieve economic mobility is by 
achieving a high-quality bachelor's degree. Not all bachelor's 
degrees are equal.
    Often, too often here in this committee room, in the name 
of trying to appear as if one is a populist, or somehow closer 
with the ordinary person, or whatever that might mean, people 
end up bashing higher education.
    That should not be our message either. I was a former high 
school teacher, and I would still recommend to students that 
they have a 4-year degree in their mind, but you do not have to 
achieve it all at once. It can be achieved in stackable 
credentials.
    I was a community college trustee as I said at Riverside 
Community College, and one of the programs that I supported 
being implemented, or being established, was the physician 
assistants program at the community college level. We were the 
only community college west of the Mississippi River to 
actually have a physician assistant's program.
    During the 90's and most of the aughts, in fact all the way 
through the aughts, you could get a physician's assistants 
degree, or a certificate, or license with a 2-year community 
college program. There are some initial requirements to get 
into the program, which mainly was about 5 years of experience 
in a medical career prior to being a program, you know, maybe a 
corpsman or maybe a medic, or maybe an EMT.
    You could satisfy it in a number of different ways. The 
interest in the program was substantial. It drew a number of 
students to the community college, and you could earn very, 
very good wage or not even a wage, a good salary after 
completing this program.
    To my surprise when I came to Congress in 2013, I learned 
that the independent accrediting body phased out the community 
college program and said that you have to get a master's 
degree. This adds substantial more time, and both getting your 
bachelor's degree and your master's degree. It left me furious 
as a community college trustee.
    From what I knew, our students were scoring just as well on 
the board scores, kind of an indication of competency. I would 
like for anyone to, I only have about a minute left to respond 
to the story I just presented to you which comes from my own 
experience. Does anyone have anything to add quickly before my 
time runs out?
    Ms. Debroy. I will add a note on the important of community 
colleges as a pathway for the majority of our workforce because 
community colleges have proven to be engines of economic 
mobility for workers who are skilled through alternative roots. 
The majority of STARs actually have some college credit, and 
almost one of five STARs has an associate's degree.
    This is actually a really critical pathway that we continue 
to invest in in this country, and ensure that workers are able 
to translate the learnings they get in community college to 
earnings in the labor market.
    Mr. Takano. Thank you. Mr. Chairman, you know it is unfair 
because you are not unfair, but unfair that I asked that 
question to my panel because looking at their backgrounds they 
really didn't have a background to sort of answer my question. 
I would love it if the committee could look into this issue of 
credential creep, but also how is it that we see these programs 
eliminated?
    People could have achieved in 2 years, is it really 
necessary to get a master's degree in order to be a physician's 
assistant? I mean could that be done? I know people getting 
training in the military as corpsmen and as medics. I wonder 
how much more education do they need to come out and be like a 
physician's assistant, or a nursing, or you know, an advanced 
practice nurse.
    Mr. Owens. I would love to. I love it that we are having 
these kinds of conversations about innovation, and what really 
does count, and what impacts as soon as possible now in our 
society.
    Mr. Takano. Well, I would love it if we could work together 
to get a panel, no disrespect to this panel, but a panel that 
could engage this about you know, about these independent 
accrediting bodies. I do not want to muck that up, but I still 
think there is something wrong when you go from a 2-year 
community college program to a master's program. What is up 
with that?
    Mr. Owens. Well, we will have Dr. Foxx look into this for 
sure. Thank you so much. Appreciate that. Thank you. I would 
like to yield 5 minutes to Ms. Chavez-DeRemer.
    Mrs. Chavez-DeRemer. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank you for 
holding this important meeting. There have been a lot of 
exchanges today, and our workforce consistently prioritizes 
skills over degrees.
    No other country can compete with us. Apprenticeships play 
a huge role in maintaining that economic edge. Oregon has 
created the right environment for maintaining an incredible 
apprenticeship system, one which other states frankly should 
copy.
    If you go to the Oregon Apprenticeship and Training 
Divisions website you will find easily accessible program 
equipping Oregonians to become bricklayers, educators, fire 
fighters, aircraft mechanics, iron workers, and so many more 
jobs that without, our State couldn't function, quite frankly.
    Dr. Debroy, in your written testimony you discussed the 
need to have updated and accessible data bases, so that 
apprenticeship programs are meeting the labor's market needs. 
Can you tell me what are the barriers preventing these kinds of 
data bases?
    Ms. Debroy. Thank you so much for the question, and it is 
such an important one. I want to grab my notes on this. There 
is the need that we have right now as a community in workforce 
to actually better understand the workers. Workers, their 
trajectories, their occupations, their skills, their employment 
opportunities.
    I think one of the most critical things we note in the 
Federal data infrastructure right now is there is a lag in when 
we get access to that data, and how accurate it is in State and 
regional contexts. I think investing in the opportunity to 
actually better understand the American workforce is going to 
better serve all actors within the workforce ecosystem.
    Mrs. Chaves-DeRemer. You are saying the data input is what 
is the barrier to--is it the lag of information is what is the 
barrier? That is the only barrier for the----
    Ms. Debroy. It is a significant barrier to that.
    Mrs. Chaves-DeRemer. Okay. What are the targeted solutions 
we on the Committee should focus on?
    Ms. Debroy. Yes. It is a great question. I think 
investments in data infrastructure are actually really 
critical, and I think through WIOA, we have an opportunity to 
also start to think about better investments in serving 
business services as well, to actually better serve small-and 
medium-sized businesses, as well as large enterprise and 
regions.
    Mrs. Chaves-DeRemer. Thank you. Now for the programs 
themselves. In terms of how we prepare workers. In Oregon, 
workers overwhelmingly prefer registered apprenticeships 
because those programs have clear, and uniform standards 
centered around what is best for the worker.
    Can you speak to why workers have such a strong preference 
for registered apprenticeship programs over industry recognized 
programs?
    Ms. Debroy. Good question. I do not know as much about the 
variation of apprenticeships. What I will say from the data is 
that we have seen a proliferation of registered apprenticeships 
into new occupations in the US labor market. You named a number 
of occupations. We have also seen registered apprenticeships in 
healthcare, in technology, and in advanced manufacturing that 
didn't exist 10 years ago. That is a really promising trend for 
the American workforce.
    I think beyond that though, what we do see is a lot of 
innovation in employers actually deploying informal 
apprenticeship models to an additional 200 roles in the US 
labor market. That is also really important, because that is 
the kind of first step in figuring out how can we build those 
pathways for workers to actually enter a lot of newer 
occupations that they have not historically had access to.
    Mrs. Chavez-DeRemer. Thank you. I would add that it is 
important to remember that nobody, I hope, wants to get rid of 
industry recognized programs, but I think we have to call it 
like it is. If you want the Federal Government to financially 
support your apprenticeship program, you have got to meet the 
standards, which make registered apprenticeships so appealing 
to the workers.
    Really one last question that I have for you, Dr. Debroy. 
Aside from the things you have already mentioned, what are the 
best ways Congress can make apprenticeships more successful for 
workers, and please feel free to take really what's left of 56 
seconds to answer the question.
    Ms. Debroy. I do think it starts with a better data 
infrastructure for the American workforce. Then beyond that, I 
do think that there is--apprenticeships still account for a 
really small portion of how workers get access to jobs. We need 
to scale that in a significant way.
    There are ways that we can actually incentivize employers 
to move toward skills-based hiring practices, and 
apprenticeships are just one method, right. There are other 
methods like helping them see that internships are a pathway 
into work, that contract to hire opportunities are also another 
way to bring workers who have not historically had access to a 
number of opportunities into their jobs as well. Thank you.
    Mrs. Chavez-DeRemer. Thank you, Dr. Debroy. Mr. Chair, I 
yield back.
    Mr. Owens. I would like to recognize Ms. Manning.
    Ms. Manning. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I represent North 
Carolina's 6th congressional District, a place where we have a 
history of great manufacturing. Many of those jobs went 
overseas in the late 1990's, resulting in huge and devastating 
job loss.
    Thanks to very hard work, and thanks to huge investments in 
the American worker, in American businesses by the last 
Congress and the Biden administration, we are now enjoying the 
growth of advanced manufacturing once again in our district.
    Many of our businesses are now having trouble finding 
qualified workers to fill the open jobs. Simply put, we need 
more skilled workers. Dr. Debroy, registered apprenticeship is 
viewed as one of the best tools in the toolbox for skilling up 
workers, and we know that 93 percent of people who complete a 
registered apprenticeship program are employed upon completion, 
earning an average wage starting above $77,000.00 annually.
    Is registered apprenticeship a model that can be used for a 
skills-based hiring approach, and if so, can you tell us how?
    Ms. Debroy. Yes. Absolutely, apprenticeships are a critical 
lever available to employers. One thing I will note though is 
that 70 percent of apprenticeships offer entry into jobs that 
make up just 8 percent of the labor force today. There is 
something now about thinking about this moment, and expanding 
the number of pathways that apprenticeships can offer 
opportunities into.
    Ms. Manning. Wonderful. You mentioned in your testimony 
that the adoption of skills-based hiring can expand employers 
pool of applicants, improve candidate assessments, which in 
turn can lead to increased quality of new hires, as well as 
improvements in productivity, employee engagement and 
retention.
    Can you talk a little bit more about--I know you talked in 
your testimony, but if you can elaborate a little bit more on 
what skills-based hiring can do for employers, and perhaps talk 
about hurdles that employers may face in using a skills-based 
hiring approach.
    Ms. Debroy. Thank you so much for the question. You are 
absolutely right. The return on investment in skills-based 
hiring certainly shows up in the hiring process, but it extends 
beyond that for employers. With larger and more diverse pools 
of applicants, and more effective candidate assessments, 
employers can actually expect to see an increase in the quality 
of new hires with skills-based hiring.
    They can expect to see improvements in productivity and 
employee engagement as well as retention. That is what early 
data is actually showing about the value of skills-based hiring 
for employers.
    Ms. Manning. You noted in your opening statement that 
workers skilled through alternative roots, your STARs Program, 
are willing and able to take many of the quality high paying 
jobs, that remain unfilled across many industries. What steps 
can Congress take to incentivize employers to adopt these 
practices?
    Ms. Debroy. I think that there are number of steps that the 
Federal Government can make. I think the first one is actually 
a really critical one, which is that the public sector is one 
of the largest employers in all regions of the country. 
Deploying these methods themselves as an employer is the first 
critical step.
    I think beyond that the moment in front of us to actually 
make investments in WIOA and amplify them as a really critical 
investment that we can make to actually ensure that STARs are 
getting access to training and services they need to be placed 
into a lot of the higher wage occupations that are available in 
their region's labor market.
    Ms. Manning. I asked, but I do not know if you answered. 
Are there hurdles that employers face in using the skills-based 
hiring approach? Are there skills that are not easily tested 
that can actually affect whether an employee can succeed in a 
particular job?
    Ms. Debroy. Sorry, I missed that one.
    Ms. Manning. That is Okay.
    Ms. Debroy. It is a really important question because 
skills-based hiring is actually a quite different method to be 
deploying to surface talent than what employers have 
historically used, which is more of a pedigree-based approach. 
In deploying this method there are genuine shifts that need to 
occur within an organization.
    It actually starts with a mindset shift. What we see is 
that the majority of managers in this country have a bachelor's 
degree. Managers with a degree are less likely to consider a 
worker without a degree for a similar job, and they are also 
less likely to make investments in workers without a degree 
within their own workforce.
    Combatting that is the first step right, is how can we in 
some respects help employers understand that STARs are a vast, 
overlooked, skilled and diverse part of our labor market, who 
should be valued for the many skills they are bringing to the 
job.
    Ms. Manning. Great. Thank you so much. My time has expired, 
and I yield back.
    Mr. Owens. Thank you. I would like to recognize for 5 
minutes Mr. Williams.
    Mr. Williams. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I just beg for your 
patience for a few minutes. I would like to describe my 
district to you, and then maybe ask for your advice, and what 
we can do. We are blessed in New York's 22d District with an 
abundance of resources.
    We have three excellent private colleges. In fact, many of 
the--three of the best in the country, Syracuse University, 
Colgate University and Hamilton College. We also have excellent 
community colleges, and I mean truly excellent. Mohawk Valley 
Community College, as well as the Onondaga County Community 
College.
    We are also blessed with a historic opportunity of Micron 
Technology in making a historically large investment in 
manufacturing in this Nation, and quite fortunately in our 
district as well. That sets up a competition for available 
workers that are in our district.
    I hear this from other manufacturers, and companies that 
are already there that there is this dynamic of competition, 
and there is also this dynamic of mismatch of skills, many of 
which you have addressed today in your questions, in your 
testimony. You know, when I hear about apprenticeships, skills-
based training, certificate-based training, I would say all the 
above are relevant to what we are doing.
    I see a lot of different models, for example. Onondaga 
Community College is moving toward a certificate-based learning 
program specifically to meet the most immediate needs in 
healthcare, technology, manufacturing, and other areas where we 
happen to be growing. It is actually very exciting.
    Even the trade unions actually are doing an excellent job 
of developing workers for construction. You see we have all of 
the blessings and all of the challenges; we simply do not have 
enough workers. Could any of you address anything related to 
partnerships among all these different organizations, whether 
it is private or public?
    How we can get new workers into the workforce. We are truly 
handicapped that we cannot afford to leave anybody behind in my 
district, quite literally, we need everyone to work. I also 
know from my own experience doing jobs training for homeless 
men, that there is a significant gap to get on that first 
ladder of the workforce.
    I really do open it up in a sincere way. Is there any 
advice or counsel you would have to help make me effective 
marshalling these resources to help people get on the workforce 
ladder because we need them? Please. Thanks for being brave and 
going first.
    Mr. Smith. I think I could. Thanks for the question and 
opening it up to everybody. At SHRM we started an H.R. 
apprentice program, and so we talked a fair bit about 
apprenticeship programs here, but they are typically more on 
the blue-collar side of thing, and at SHRM we decided it would 
be a good idea to open that up past blue collar and into what 
has traditionally been more of a white collar job of human 
resources.
    The really good thing about the apprenticeship programs is 
the on-the-job learning, but also you are getting paid while 
you do this, and I think there is more opportunities for this 
type of training beyond traditional blue collar.
    Mr. Williams. May I ask what prerequisites you are looking 
for, for people to get on that kind of program?
    Mr. Smith. Mainly, it is the interest in it.
    Mr. Williams. Is it high school education? Is it any 
college? Is it you know?
    Mr. Smith. I do not remember offhand. It is certainly not 
the bachelor's degree.
    Mr. Williams. Okay.
    Mr. Smith. I don't remember if----
    Mr. Williams. Can I open it up to anybody else?
    Ms. Debroy. I agree you have described a very robust 
workforce ecosystem. If I were to name from our research what 
we've learned is one of the most critical parts of ensuring 
that connection happens between and across a workforce 
ecosystem, it is getting the demand signal right.
    It is ensuring that workers know what jobs are in demand, 
what skills are required of those jobs, and they need that data 
in a timely way. To get that right for us now in this next 
phase, we actually need to update our data infrastructure for 
this century.
    Mr. Williams. A lot of times I come across, and I know I am 
out of time. I come across manufacturers that are offering 
amazing packages for people, education, all kinds of things, 
and they find no takers. Any last thoughts in our remaining 
seconds? Thank you. Thanks for your time. I yield back, sir.
    Mr. Owens. Thank you. I would like to recognize for the 
last 5 minutes Mr. Bowman.
    Mr. Bowman. Thank you so much, Mr. Chairman, and thank you 
to the witnesses for being here. This is an incredibly awesome 
and exciting conversation. I am so happy that we are having it. 
I want to start by giving a huge shoutout to Chairwoman 
Virginia Foxx, she was just sitting there, but I wanted to 
acknowledge her publicly, and the Republican party for putting 
this hearing together.
    If someone can get Chairwoman Foxx back in here, I want her 
to hear me say this is great, and I want to give her a huge 
shoutout. I am thinking about so many things, right? Obviously, 
I support higher education, but it is not a pathway for 
everyone.
    For so long, for decades, so many young people who have 
graduated from high school have been left out of higher-earning 
jobs and careers because they did not have access to higher 
education, so this is the exact conversation we need to have. A 
conversation about multiple pathways to work, dignity, self-
determination, self respect in a thriving economy that works 
for everyone and helps humanity.
    To me this is about equity. That is what we are talking 
about. We are talking about equity. I have got a couple of 
questions. One, what should high schools be doing? I also think 
that kids should be graduating high school ready to enter the 
workforce. What should high schools be doing, and then try to 
answer quickly because I have got one more question. I am going 
to start with Dr. Debroy, and then we will go to Healey, and 
then boom, boom, boom, quickly, and I have got one more 
question. Please. What should high schools be doing?
    Ms. Debroy. I think there is a basic set of skills that all 
students coming out of high school should be getting that 
employers recognize and understand are valuable skills for all 
jobs in the labor market.
    Mr. Bowman. Awesome.
    Mr. Healey. I mean I would concur. I would say that high 
schools need to understand the requirements, and the technical 
requirements for many roles, particularly for employers within 
their district, and teach those skillsets.
    Mr. Bowman. Awesome.
    Ms. Kimbrough. Expose them to the range of great jobs that 
are out there, not just college pathway jobs, but all the other 
trades jobs that are out there.
    Mr. Bowman. Yep.
    Mr. Smith. I think they should also focus beyond the 
technical skills on what we would refer to as behavioral 
competencies. Teamwork and communication, these are sometimes 
called soft skills, but these skills that are very common 
across all sorts of jobs that are often, I think, 
underdeveloped in high school.
    Mr. Bowman. Yes. In many ways our K to 12 system is like 
the same that it is been for like 100 years, and that needs to 
evolve in many ways, and that is why I ask about high schools, 
but my background is education. I know what needs to happen at 
the K to 12 level as well.
    I think this is a moonshot moment for our humanity and 
economy, and we need to rethink, reimagine, redesign, and 
restructure the economy in a way that aligns to everything 
we're talking about here today. I think part of that is going 
to require us investing in getting employers, educators, higher 
ed, and everyone who cares about humanity and the economy in a 
room to consistently like work together to reimagine and 
redevelop the economy in a way that deals with the issue of 
equity.
    We measure the strength of our economy right now through 
GDP. We talk about how powerful and great we are, but we have 
not even scratched the surface of our capacity because we 
continue to leave tens of millions of people behind because of 
persistent inequality within our economic system.
    You are all nodding, so I guess you agree with that. Can 
you just comment on that Healey quickly, and then down the line 
please.
    Mr. Healey. SAP believes unequivocally that people 
sustainability. You have just been touching on people 
sustainability is a business imperative, and we support human 
potential to create more sustainable futures. We define, by the 
way, we have a definition of people sustainability, and it 
means treating people across organizations, supply chains, and 
communities ethically and fairly.
    We can do that through obviously the identification of 
skills, and matching skills to open needs, open roles.
    Mr. Bowman. Yep. Thank you.
    Ms. Debroy. I concur that this is a moonshot moment, and 
there are 70 million workers, 30 million of which who have 
skills to move into significantly higher wage work today if 
they were given access and opportunity to do so. It is time 
that we leverage them and give them that opportunity.
    Mr. Bowman. That is right.
    Mr. Smith. At SHRM, we strongly support skilled hiring no 
matter where the skills come from. If it comes from education 
great, if they get good business relevance skills from other 
places also great.
    Mr. Bowman. Awesome.
    Ms. Kimbrough. There is a meaningful number of Americans 
who are only marginally attached to the economy. There is at 
least five million Americans out there who want a job and are 
not even looking. There is a huge amount of untapped talent 
still beyond the STARS.
    Mr. Bowman. There are multiple intelligences. Skills are 
always evolving. This is about life-long learning and 
upskilling consistently. This is very exciting. Thank you all 
so much, and I am sorry Virginia Foxx did not come back. Sorry, 
Chair Foxx, another shoutout to you. I yield back.
    Mr. Owens. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Bowman. I appreciate 
it. If you do not mind just standing around for a minute as I 
close out. Mr. Bowman, just hold tight. I would like to 
recognize for her closing statement Ms. Hayes.
    Mrs. Hayes. I just want to thank the witnesses for your 
time here today. This is a very important hearing, and as you 
hear, there is bipartisan support for this initiative, because 
it really is just that basic. We have to prepare our workforce 
for the future of, you know, the next generation of jobs.
    There are so many young people, people changing careers, 
people who have life experiences that can be transferred into 
the workplace. College is not for everyone, for a variety of 
different reasons, whether it be the costs, the location, 
transportation, childcare, there are lots of different 
barriers, but it does not mean that people cannot still find 
success.
    I think that it is very important that we look to ways that 
we can get more people into the workforce, not less. The Biden 
administration has talked a lot about made in America, bringing 
jobs back home, getting people back to work, and this is one of 
those initiatives, and ways that we can do that.
    I would just finally like to close by saying we have to, I 
guess, I echo the comments of Ranking Member Scott when he 
emphasized that it is past time that this committee passes a 
fully funded reauthorization of WIOA that relies on evidence-
based practices, and better engages employers in our workforce 
development system.
    I think we are all asking for the same thing. We just have 
to work really hard to make sure that we are reaching the 
people who are never touched by these programs, digging deep 
into the most vulnerable and marginalized communities. Making 
sure that employers are working cooperatively with the 
recommendations, the system if they are going to access any 
type of Federal funding.
    The way we get to that I think can be achieved through 
hearings just like this, so again, I thank you for your time 
and your participation, and with that I yield back.
    Mr. Owens. Thank you so much. I guess a couple things. I, 
too, wish Dr. Foxx was here, but I wanted to share this 
moment's enthusiasm and excitement about where we are at this 
point. Dr. Debroy, you mentioned--I was going to say an 
inflection point. You said it best, moonshot moment. Very good. 
All right.
    Another reason for you to stay around, thanks so much. I 
appreciate it. Now that is exactly, when you think about where 
we are today, we have industries, we have legislation, we have 
American parents, all focused on one thing, not only preparing 
our kids, but listening to them, and giving them options to go 
out and do what we have to do.
    This, I think, you can tell by national security, you 
cannot say something more important than first of all, 
educating our children, and giving them a change to go out and 
build the American dream, and that's where we are right now. It 
was something Thomas Jefferson said, ignorant and free can 
never be.
    Our freedom comes from the ability to dream big, go out 
there and pursue what we want to do in life, feel like this 
means something, and then giving back. I am going to say the 
biggest asset we have as a committee--we are at a point now 
where we truly do need to hear from innovators.
    We want to be innovative in terms of how we legislate, and 
that is why we had the questions we had today. We want to think 
outside of the box. How can we get all these millions of young 
people, and old, to be in a position where they can pursue what 
they really believe is important, and really fall in love again 
with the opportunities that we think we have in this country.
    My big ask would be please let us know what it is that we 
can do try to give you a runway, so we can go out and actually 
build something, and legislate something that gives you the 
freedom to make that happen. I want to thank you again. This 
has been a remarkable hearing, and again we all share the same 
concepts, we just want to make sure at the end it is a good 
negotiation.
    Thank you for that. I would again like to thank the 
witnesses for taking the time to testify before the Committee 
today. Without objection, there being no further business, the 
Committee stands adjourned.

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    [Whereupon at 1:06 p.m., the Committee was adjourned.]

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