[House Hearing, 118 Congress]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]
WEATHERING THE STORM:
OVERSIGHT OF THE
FEDERAL RESPONSE AND RECOVERY EFFORTS
IN SOUTHWESTERN FLORIDA
FOLLOWING HURRICANE IAN
=======================================================================
HEARING
before the
SUBCOMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENT OPERATIONS AND THE FEDERAL WORKFORCE
of the
COMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT
AND ACCOUNTABILITY
HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
ONE HUNDRED EIGHTEENTH CONGRESS
FIRST SESSION
__________
AUGUST 10, 2023
__________
Serial No. 118-59
__________
Printed for the use of the Committee on Oversight and Accountability
[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Available on: govinfo.gov
oversight.house.gov or
docs.house.gov
______
U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE
53-368 pdf WASHINGTON : 2023
COMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT AND ACCOUNTABILITY
JAMES COMER, Kentucky, Chairman
Jim Jordan, Ohio Jamie Raskin, Maryland, Ranking
Mike Turner, Ohio Minority Member
Paul Gosar, Arizona Eleanor Holmes Norton, District of
Virginia Foxx, North Carolina Columbia
Glenn Grothman, Wisconsin Stephen F. Lynch, Massachusetts
Gary Palmer, Alabama Gerald E. Connolly, Virginia
Clay Higgins, Louisiana Raja Krishnamoorthi, Illinois
Pete Sessions, Texas Ro Khanna, California
Andy Biggs, Arizona Kweisi Mfume, Maryland
Nancy Mace, South Carolina Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, New York
Jake LaTurner, Kansas Katie Porter, California
Pat Fallon, Texas Cori Bush, Missouri
Byron Donalds, Florida Shontel Brown, Ohio
Kelly Armstrong, North Dakota Jimmy Gomez, California
Scott Perry, Pennsylvania Melanie Stansbury, New Mexico
William Timmons, South Carolina Robert Garcia, California
Tim Burchett, Tennessee Maxwell Frost, Florida
Marjorie Taylor Greene, Georgia Summer Lee, Pennsylvania
Lisa McClain, Michigan Greg Casar, Texas
Lauren Boebert, Colorado Jasmine Crockett, Texas
Russell Fry, South Carolina Dan Goldman, New York
Anna Paulina Luna, Florida Jared Moskowitz, Florida
Chuck Edwards, North Carolina Vacancy
Nick Langworthy, New York
Eric Burlison, Missouri
Mark Marin, Staff Director
Jessica Donlon, Deputy Staff Director and General Counsel
Bill Womack, Senior Advisor
Alex Rankin, Professional Staff Member
Mallory Cogar, Deputy Director of Operations and Chief Clerk
Contact Number: 202-225-5074
Julie Tagen, Minority Staff Director
Contact Number: 202-225-5051
------
Subcommittee on Government Operations and the Federal Workforce
Pete Sessions, Texas, Chairman
Gary Palmer, Alabama Kweisi Mfume, Maryland Ranking
Clay Higgins, Louisiana Minority Member
Andy Biggs, Arizona Eleanor Holmes Norton, District of
Byron Donalds, Florida Columbia
William Timmons, South Carolina Maxwell Frost, Florida
Tim Burchett, Tennessee Greg Casar, Texas
Marjorie Taylor Greene, Georgia Gerald E. Connolly, Virginia
Lauren Boebert, Colorado Melanie Stansbury, New Mexico
Russell Fry, South Carolina Robert Garcia, California
Chuck Edwards, North Carolina Summer Lee, Pennsylvania
Eric Burlison, Missouri Jasmine Crockett, Texas
Vacancy
C O N T E N T S
----------
Page
Hearing held on August 10, 2023.................................. 1
WITNESSES
----------
Panel 1 - Federal Witnesses
Mr. Thomas McCool, Federal Coordinating Officer for Hurricane
Ian, (Sept. 2022 - Apr. 2023), Federal Emergency Management
Agency
Oral Statement................................................... 6
Mr. Francisco Sanchez, Jr., Associate Administrator, Office of
Disaster Recovery & Resilience, Small Business Administration
Oral Statement................................................... 8
Ms. Marion McFadden, Principal Deputy Assistant Secretary,
Community Planning Development, Department of Housing and Urban
Development
Oral Statement................................................... 10
Panel 2 - Local Witnesses
Mr. Brian Hamman, Chairman and District 4 Commissioner, Lee
County, Florida
Oral Statement................................................... 32
Mr. Kevin B. Anderson, Mayor, Fort Myers, Florida
Oral Statement................................................... 35
Mr. Chauncey Goss, Resident, Sanibel, Florida
Oral Statement................................................... 36
Written opening statements and statements for the witnesses are
available on the U.S. House of Representatives Document
Repository at: docs.house.gov.
INDEX OF DOCUMENTS
----------
* Article, WINK, ``Man Refuses to Get Off His Fort Myers Beach
Roof, Protesting FEMA Regulations''; submitted by Rep. Donalds.
* Letter, August 9, 2023, from City of Cape Coral Office of the
Mayor to Rep. Donalds; submitted by Rep. Donalds.
* Letter, August 9, 2023, from Rep. Donalds to Postmaster
General DeJoy; submitted by Rep. Donalds.
* Letter, August 9, 2023, from Seminole Gulf Railway to Speaker
McCarthy; submitted by Rep. Donalds.
* List of Main Points from Fort Myers Beach; submitted by Rep.
Donalds.
* OpEd, ``Lesson Learned from Hurricane Ian - Let's Embrace
Nuclear''; submitted by Rep. Donalds.
* Oversight, Fort Myers Beach; submitted by Rep. Donalds.
* Statement for the Record, Randy Denzer, Volunteer from Texas;
submitted by Rep. Donalds.
* Statement for the Record, Robert & Amy Lazzell, Fort Myers
Beach; submitted by Rep. Donalds.
* Article, CNN, ``FEMA Delays Leave Many Hurricane Ian Victims
Exasperated Nearly Five Months After the Disastrous Storm'';
submitted by Rep. Donalds.
* Questions for the Record: to Mr. Hamman; submitted by Rep.
Edwards.
* Questions for the Record: to Mr. McCool; submitted by Rep.
Sessions.
* Questions for the Record: to Mr. McCool; submitted by Rep.
Edwards.
* Questions for the Record: to Ms. McFadden; submitted by Rep.
Sessions.
* Questions for the Record: to Ms. McFadden; submitted by Rep.
Edwards.
* Questions for the Record: to Mr. Sanchez; submitted by Rep.
Sessions.
* Questions for the Record: to Mr. Sanchez; submitted by Rep.
Edwards.
* Questions for the Record: to Mr. Anderson; submitted by Rep.
Edwards.
* Questions for the Record: to Mr. Goss; submitted by Rep.
Edwards.
Documents are available at: docs.house.gov.
WEATHERING THE STORM:
OVERSIGHT OF THE
FEDERAL RESPONSE AND RECOVERY
EFFORTS IN SOUTHWESTERN FLORIDA
FOLLOWING HURRICANE IAN
----------
Thursday, August 10, 2023
House of Representatives
Committee on Oversight and Accountability
Subcommittee on Government Operations and the Federal Workforce
Washington, D.C.
The Subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 10:00 a.m., in
Lakes Regional Library, 15290 Bass Road, Fort Myers, Florida,
Hon. Pete Sessions [Chairman of the Subcommittee] presiding.
Present: Representatives Sessions, Biggs, Donalds, and
Edwards.
Mr. Sessions. Good morning. It is 10 o'clock a.m. The
Subcommittee on Government Operations and the Federal Workforce
will come to order, and I would like to welcome each of you who
are here and have taken time out of your important day to not
only join us, but to hear what I believe will be information
that will be shared, with the confidence that this Federal
Government, this Republican majority, and local people need to
work together on answers and the things that we are doing here
today.
Without objection, I may declare a recess at any time.
Before commencing the hearing, I would like to recognize
the Members of the Subcommittee who are joining us here today,
and I want to thank them. The gentleman from Arizona, Mr.
Biggs. Andy Biggs is an important Member of not only Government
Reform and Oversight, but leads much of our effort as it
relates to the border. He represents Arizona.
And, Andy, I want to thank you for taking time, coming from
a hearing yesterday across to here.
Also, the gentleman, Congressman Chuck Edwards, who is from
North Carolina, who was with Chairman Biggs yesterday, and
maybe the day before in Arizona, and I want to thank both of
them for coming to this rain-wrenched area of Florida as we do
this hearing.
We also, of course, have a local Congressman, a very
diligent and important Member of not just our Subcommittee but
also our Committee and as a colleague also that serves with me
on the Financial Services Committee, Byron Donalds. Mr. Donalds
told me last night that he would be a bit late, and I will tell
you I understand that because if I were in my district, I would
be way late. But we will expect to have Congressman Byron
Donalds here in just a few minutes. And as I was just told, he
is getting ready to walk in.
But thank you to each of you for joining us today. Today's
hearing, I hope, will be productive and a benefit to each of us
who are participants.
And I now recognize myself for making an opening statement,
and I want to welcome everybody. Today is official business of
the U.S. House of Representatives, the House Oversight and
Accountability Subcommittee on Government Operations and the
Federal Workforce.
The great people of Florida have shown a remarkable
strength and determination as they continue to rebuild what was
a devastating effort that came against them with the wake of
Hurricane Ian, and I would like to thank my colleague who is
getting ready to walk in, Congressman Byron Donalds, for
raising really the spectrum of taking a look at not just what
happened here but what has happened since. He has constituents
and also elected officials that represent people, and they know
that we need to be better prepared for future disasters, but
also to end the things which we are doing now.
Congressman Byron Donalds is a dedicated young servant, and
I have great confidence in him, and it was a request that he
made of us and so we are here.
I also want to thank the men and women of agencies,
agencies who have come to town, their people, hours of
devotion, dedication to try and make sure that the people of
this area of Florida were well taken care of. We thank the men
and women of the government, the U.S. Government, state
government, local government, and cities.
We gather together after 1 year for an after-action report
on behalf of the Federal Government's work to support local
governments, businesses, families, and individual citizens. And
I want to say that we have two panels that will take place
today; first with Federal witnesses who will testify; and then,
second, with local witnesses who will provide their feedback
that helps us.
This will be a discussion of the actions that have already
been taken and also that need to continue. From our local
witnesses, we appreciate the chance to hear from you and
believe that your story that will be told will help the Federal
Government and certainly the U.S. Congress to be better
prepared if and when it does happen again.
I have had the opportunity to speak to each of our
witnesses prior to the hearing, and I told them that I want
them to know that their testimony is appreciated, and I want
them to be a part of a productive conversation, a conversation
that will take place whereby we can work with it and make
things better.
While we are currently focused on this effort, we all know
it will not be the last time that Federal, state, and local
governments must come together to help rebuild communities. And
this morning, as we woke up, we saw how Hawaii, the state of
Hawaii is going through something that is similar, but that is
total destruction of many cities. Our prayers go out to them.
The people who were involved are Americans, and our Federal
Government and the U.S. Congress need to play a key role in
what they are doing.
Natural disasters are not rare, but we know that the
financial loss and the size and scope of this last hurricane
was huge.
So, I want you to know that we are committed to thanking
FEMA, SBA, and HUD and other agencies, but we should not forget
also our first responders, the men and women of law
enforcement, the men and women of fire units and EMS. They were
on the frontline. They felt the brunt of this also. And part of
the discussion I heard last night from our witnesses was their
need to have those people stay in affordable housing where they
had been, and that is part of the discussion that will take
place today.
So, we are delighted to be here. I want you to know that I
think us being here can make a difference, but the difference
that we need to make is supporting our colleagues and the
people of this area.
And I would like to defer now, if I could, to the
distinguished gentleman, Mr. Byron Donalds, for any opening
statement the young Congressman would choose to make.
The gentleman is recognized.
Mr. Donalds. Thank you, Chairman.
First of all, Chairman, I really want to thank you and
Members of the Committee for coming down to Southwest Florida
for this hearing. The devastation that occurred here in
Southwest Florida a year ago was breathtaking. And we have been
through hurricanes before here. It is something that, the
rebuilding effort, is not something that is far from the minds
of people from this part of the state of Florida, or even from
Florida in general.
But the level of devastation from flooding in particular is
something that none of us really could understand the magnitude
of. Those early days, post storm, were rough, but what we saw
firsthand were a lot of agencies, Federal and state and local,
try to come together to get this area back on track. Some
miraculous things occurred through that.
But the one thing that was always clear about the people of
Southwest Florida was their resiliency. Chairman, I can tell
you we had residents on Fort Myers Beach who hunkered down
through this storm, which was shocking to me, but they did and
did not bat an eye. When they were asked to leave their
residences, their refrain to me and to a lot of local leaders
was absolutely not, this is my home, and this storm has passed,
and we are going to do everything we can to rebuild.
To the people of Sanibel Island who literally saw their
entire causeway destroyed right in front of their eyes, instead
of--obviously, there was a lot of desperation at the time, but
they had a very major can-do spirit, and they were on boats
going back and forth to Sanibel Island trying to clear debris
from their homes, trying to start that process of building
back.
People on Pine Island, as the Matlacha Bridge was washed
out, they were on the phone with me 2 days after basically
saying, Byron, we are going to rebuild that bridge. With the
government or without the government, that thing is being
rebuilt. That is a little bit of the mindset and the heart that
has gone on here in Southwest Florida post storm.
My actions in particular, you know, my office's, you know,
legislative activities basically ceased; they ended, and at
that point, everything was about trying to make sure that all
of our offices, whether it is here locally in the district
office or the D.C. office, were available to provide any
service, any resource, act as a hub for our constituents, those
in need.
We toured many areas of the district from, you know, doing
aerials over Sanibel and Fort Myers Beach and Matlacha. It was
even being on the ground, you know, right here locally in the
Harlem Heights section of Southwest Florida right off of San
Carlos Boulevard trying to assess the damage of those on the
barrier islands, those who were on the mainland, so to speak,
but right off of the low-lying areas, right in those low-lying
areas to assess their issues and what was going on there.
The devastating impacts to the Southwest Florida community
were immense. I mean, we saw the pictures all over the news,
all over social media of massive, you know, boats in roadways,
and you would see cars in mangroves, and et cetera. We still
have--some of that stuff is still there present to this day.
There were organizations from all around the country that
made their way to the district: strangers, nonprofits. People
would bring food. People would bring supplies, all that they
could do to try to help our area recover. You had nonprofit
groups, churches coming together to strip drywall, to scoop out
mud, to get carpeting out.
In a lot of the mobile home parks in our area, you had
nonprofit groups come in to try to help people who, this was
their retirement. This was their home. And as they were
watching the particle board floors evaporate from a combination
of water damage and heat, trying to help them find a new place
to go to. We have had groups come in and assist with laundry
services, et cetera.
Simply put, the recovery efforts were massive, but they are
still not done, and there is still--although we have made a lot
of progress, in a lot of areas of Southwest Florida, there is
still much to be done.
I really want to thank the Chairman for scheduling this
hearing today to discuss with government officials from FEMA,
from SBA, and from HUD, which are the three main Federal
agencies that oversaw Hurricane Ian response from a Federal
level.
I look forward to this hearing as we take an overall view
of the efficiency and the effectiveness of the Federal
Government's Hurricane Ian response. I look forward to having a
blunt and open conversation today, which will ultimately
improve disaster relief efforts in the future.
And the one thing, Chairman, I will say, is that, like I
said, in Southwest Florida, we are accustomed to these events.
They do happen periodically. And the No. 1 thing we want to
make sure that we accomplish, is that that coordination between
Federal and state gets better, that the triage, the
assessments, and the delivery of resources to our citizens gets
better as time goes on.
But I would be remiss if we did not acknowledge the fact
that there were and are some gaps that do need to be addressed,
and I think that is really the purpose of this hearing.
And so, with that, Mr. Chairman, I am going to yield back
to you, but there is a couple of things I do want to enter into
the record if I may.
Mr. Sessions. Without objection, the gentleman may enter
those.
Mr. Donalds. First is the testimony from the city of Fort
Myers Beach, from the city of Fort Myers Beach outlining the
proposed action plan to improve Federal disaster relief.
The second is testimony from the city of Cape Coral
expressing their perspective on the Federal Government's
hurricane relief efforts.
No. 3 is testimony from a married couple from Fort Myers
Beach expressing their take on the Federal Government's
Hurricane Ian response.
Fourth, testimony from Randy Denzer, who was a volunteer
from Texas who traveled to Southwest Florida to assist with
Hurricane Ian response.
Fifth is an article titled, ``Man Refuses to Get Off His
Fort Myers Beach Roof, Protesting FEMA Regulations.'' That was
a WINK news article.
Sixth is an op-ed that I published titled, ``Lessons
Learned From Hurricane Ian- Let's Embrace Nuclear.''
Seven, a letter from Southwest Florida's only Shore Line
Railroad, Seminole Gulf Railway, relating to Hurricane Ian
recovery efforts.
And eight, a letter that I sent today to the U.S.
Postmaster General, Louis DeJoy, requesting that the United
States Postal Service extend its mail forwarding deadline by
another 6 months to assist my constituents that are still
rebuilding their homes and recovering from Hurricane Ian.
And with that, Mr. Chairman, I yield back.
Mr. Sessions. The gentleman yields back his time, and I
want to thank the gentleman.
For the people that are here that are constituents of
Congressman Donalds, you should know that his activity and
outreach across not just the U.S. Congress, but our government
has been one of a spectacular nature. And he alluded to--we
wanted to come here now and not wait until we had more answers,
which are going to take place in legislation that will be on
the Floor during the month of September and October, and that
is very important that we follow up, and the feedback from our
Federal Government employees does help.
At this time, I would like to say that we are going to have
two panels. The first panel will feature Federal witnesses; the
second panel, local. I am pleased now to introduce the Federal
witnesses who have already placed themselves properly before
this Subcommittee.
We have Thomas McCool. He has been a member of FEMA's
Federal Coordinating Office for over 14 years as an officer and
management person in that area. Over the course of his career,
he has participated in over 50--and this is amazing--50
Presidentially directed declared disasters, acting as CEO and
FCO for a record of 31 of these events. Mr. McCool is charged
with coordinating the Federal response to Hurricane Ian for
FEMA and from the storms that have happened down in Florida.
So, we have the person that is here from FEMA. Mr. McCool,
welcome.
Francisco Sanchez, Jr., served as Associate Administrator
for the U.S. Small Business Administration Office of Disaster
Recovery and Resilience. In this role, Mr. Sanchez is
responsible for evaluating the priority of business and
economic recovery by redesigning the Agency's disaster
enterprise to better support America's 33 million small
businesses. We are delighted that he is here today.
And last, we have Marion McFadden. She serves as the
Principal Deputy Assistant Secretary for Community Planning and
Development at HUD, the Department of Housing and Urban
Development. In this role, she oversees the administration of
Federal financial assistance to combat homelessness, the
creation of affordable housing opportunities, and to strengthen
local communities as they have disasters.
So pursuant to Rule 9(g), the witnesses will please stand
at this time and raise their right hand.
Do you solemnly swear or affirm that the testimony that you
are about to give is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing
but the truth so help you God?
Thank you very much.
Let the record show that all the witnesses answered in the
affirmative.
We want you to know that we appreciate you being here
today. I would like to remind the witnesses that we intend to
read your testimony. We also intend to listen to you here
today. It will appear in the full hearing record.
I would like you to know that we typically have 5 minutes
to give you. I want you to know that I am not going to stick to
that today, but that does not mean 20 minutes. What it means is
that we want to allow you time to effectively present your
position. I have previously spoken to you before we arrived in
Florida, and I think you understand that we are trying to make
this effort better, as opposed to 5 minutes come and go and
leave. We are not going to leave and nor are you--neither are
you.
So, I want to thank each of you for being here. We will
come first to Mr. McCool. The gentleman is recognized.
STATEMENT OF THOMAS McCOOL
FEDERAL COORDINATING OFFICER FOR HURRICANE IAN
FEDERAL EMERGENCY MANAGEMENT AGENCY
Mr. McCool. Chairman Sessions and Members of the
Subcommittee, thank you for the opportunity to discuss FEMA's
efforts to help Florida recover from the devastating impact of
Hurricane Ian. My name is Tom McCool, and I am a Federal
Coordinating Officer in FEMA. I was the Federal Coordinating
Officer of record for Hurricane Ian until May of this year.
Ian is the third costliest natural disaster ever in the
United States after Hurricane Katrina and Harvey. It was
initially anticipated to strike the Tampa Bay area, but
instead, took aim at Lee County and pushed a destructive 10-to-
15-foot storm surge into Fort Myers Beach, Sanibel Island, and
Pine Island, before causing significant flooding across central
Florida, combined with high winds that resulted in damage to
over 50,000 homes and businesses and the collapse of a large
portion of the Sanibel Causeway, temporarily cutting off all
the vehicles' access to Sanibel Island.
Under the leadership of Administrator Deanne Criswell, even
before the storm made landfall, FEMA coordinated with the
Florida Department of Emergency Management and local partners
to ensure resources were in place for a rapid response and a
quick start to recovery.
Through a people-first focus, we worked aggressively to
eliminate barriers that might slow efforts to help individuals
and communities impacted by the storm. FEMA took advantage of
time before Ian hit to pre-stage resources and commodities
strategically, including 3.7 million meals, 3.5 million liters
of water, 128,000 gallons of fuel, as well as FEMA urban search
and rescue personnel, who assisted in lifesaving operations and
helped expedite FEMA's assistance to communities.
FEMA acted quickly to coordinate the deployment of more
than 4,000 Federal responders, including seven disaster medical
assistance teams. FEMA also arranged for barges and helicopters
to re-establish critical services on Sanibel Island until the
causeway could be repaired.
We implemented a unique rapid debris removal taskforce that
used technology to identify areas where debris was
concentrated. This allowed 19 million cubic yards of debris,
enough to fill more than 5,800 Olympic-size swimming pools to
be moved in record time and cleared. This was weeks faster and
months faster than we had previously done with any other large
event of this size.
Data collected by geographic information systems also
allowed us to expedite remote damage assessments for private
homes and buildings, eliminating the need for in-person
inspections. To speed delivery of assistance to disaster
survivors, we completed more than 5,600 GIS home inspections
that led to more than $78 million in assistance to survivors.
These and other innovative solutions were critical to jump-
start recovery for impacted individuals and community. FEMA is
committed to further building on this work.
Now, 10 months after the disaster, more than $8 billion has
been paid out to either direct financial assistance, SBA
disaster loans, or flood insurance payments to help people,
communities, and businesses recover. We know, and I
acknowledge, there is still a lot of work to be done.
For folks still working to get back on their feet, recovery
never comes quickly enough. Housing and affordable housing
remains a challenge for some survivors. We are committed for
the long-term, and we will be here until the job is done.
Overall, FEMA has a workforce of over 22,000 dedicated
employees who are battle-tested and ready to deploy at a
moment's notice to any disaster. We have personnel prepared to
support lifesaving response operations, including four national
and 13 regional incident management assistant teams, 28 urban
search and rescue teams, and 36 emergency communication teams.
Our warehouse and distribution centers across the country
are stocked and ready to support states and tribes with water,
meals, cots, blankets, generators. Beyond that, our pre-
negotiated contracts and inter-agency partners are ready to
meet the moment of any disaster that develops.
Our approach to post-disaster housing continues to evolve
based on successes and lessons learned from previous direct
housing missions. Our goal is to deliver safe, durable housing
for displaced survivors following any disaster, regardless of
the location, scope, or scale.
Last year, here, was the first time we deployed a direct
housing implementation team to expedite housing for survivors.
We are also excited to continue to deploy a new public
assistance initiative, the public assistance navigator to
provide personnel to help applicants through the process of
public assistance.
Finally, as we do every year during hurricane season, we
continue to amplify preparedness message. Always listen to
protective action and guidance from local emergency management
officials. Know your evacuation zones and routes. If told to
evacuate, evacuate; and prepare to act while time is on your
side.
Thank you again, and I look forward to your questions.
Mr. Sessions. Mr. McCool, thank you very much.
Mr. Sanchez, you are recognized.
STATEMENT OF FRANCISCO SANCHEZ
ASSOCIATE ADMINISTRATOR
OFFICE OF DISASTER RECOVERY & RESILIENCE
SMALL BUSINESS ADMINISTRATION
Mr. Sanchez. Chairman Sessions, thank you for the
invitation to discuss the Small Business Administration's
actions in response to Hurricane Ian. Representative Donalds is
a former Member of the House Committee on Small Business. Nice
to see you again.
I am Francisco Sanchez, Associate Administrator at the U.S.
Small Business Administration. I oversee the Office of Recovery
and Resilience. On behalf of SBA Administrator Isabella
Casillas Guzman and the entire team, thank you for your support
of our disaster mission and helping us to ensure that the
Federal Government stands ready to continue our efforts here in
Florida.
Personally, I spent decades in emergency management working
some of the largest security events in the Nation, from two
Super Bowls to three World Series, as well as providing local
coordination for multiple national special security events.
Prior to joining the SBA, I served as Deputy Homeland
Security and Emergency Management Coordinator in Harris County,
Texas. If you do not know where that is, that includes the city
of Houston along the Gulf Coast. And in that role, had the
privilege of serving on command staff for four of our Nation's
10 most costly natural disasters: Katrina, Rita, Ike, and
Harvey.
And the most humbling points in my career have been when I
have had to step in and help communities recover and rebuild.
So, I understand the challenges that Florida is facing.
And so, for our part, I did join SBA in January 2022, to
help lead our disaster efforts, what is now the disaster
enterprise across SBA. It is one of the most important
functions that we serve is to help lift up Americans and
community in the aftermath of disaster.
SBA is uniquely positioned in being able to come in and
help homeowners, renters, businesses, and private nonprofits.
For businesses, we provide physical damage loans. If you were
not damaged, we can also come in and provide economic injury.
For example, here where tourism is a big industry, if you were
not impacted but suffering with some capital challenges, we
help there as well.
Today we are here in Fort Myers, the city that experienced
the devastation and destruction of Hurricane Ian on September
28 of last year. As Mr. McCool mentioned, this is the third
most costly storm in our Nation's history, and that, obviously,
comes with some incredible challenges.
On September 29, President Biden declared a major disaster
in Florida the day after the storm hit, and SBA, on that same
day, was on the ground ready to deliver disaster relief in this
community. A few short weeks later, Administrator Guzman and I
traveled to Florida to visit with businesses, visit with local
officials, and listen to how we could prioritize and deploy on
the ground in a way that would meet local priorities.
One of the things that we do is open business recovery
centers to make sure that we can help local businesses in the
economy recover. Working alongside with our Federal partners
and state partners, we also surge in disaster recovery centers
at the community level. Actually, we are the first disaster
recovery center that opened after the storm.
One of our most innovative approaches to enhance SBA's
outreach here in Florida was the deployment of portable loan
outreach centers, what we call PLOCs. They are lightweight
mobile deployable systems that help us enable rapid response to
some of the most damaged and vulnerable locations.
And so, one of the things we saw here is communities where
facilities could not open yet. There was not enough power,
limited issues at capacity. So they are basically tents, solar-
powered tents, tables, that are staffed, that go into those
communities to make sure they do not have to wait for help.
That model worked. We deployed those in other parts of the
state to make sure that we could meet the customer where they
are.
Since September of last year, we have approved more than
$1.9 billion in assistance to 25,000 loan recipients, and of
that amount, $371 million has been approved for businesses in
these most impacted communities.
Since that year, coming up on the year mark, we opened 10
business recovery centers, 6 of those portable loan outreach
centers that I talked about, and we supported 60 of the
disaster recovery centers that are coordinated by our partners
at FEMA and the state, and at the peak of the response, had
more than 250 staff on the ground spread out throughout the
state helping ensure that we could recover.
Most recently, for example, as we continue that outreach,
our team made more than 14,000 calls to businesses by telephone
to try to touch those survivors, engage with them, and let them
know that we are still here and that we continue to help, and
we will continue that effort.
Both the President and Administrator Guzman made it clear
that we would be here as long as it takes. I am here to
reiterate that, and to tell you that we continue to be on the
ground, and I do not see us going anywhere any time soon. We
have got some long work to do.
So, I appreciate the opportunity to tell you a little bit
about what we have done but, more importantly, from the local
perspective and having been there, to continue that dialog to
see how we can adapt, continue to pivot, and make sure that we
are there for every step of the way to see Floridians recover.
Thank you so much.
Mr. Sessions. I thank the gentleman.
Ms. McFadden, you are recognized.
STATEMENT OF MARION MCFADDEN
PRINCIPAL DEPUTY ASSISTANT SECRETARY
COMMUNITY PLANNING AND DEVELOPMENT
DEPARTMENT OF HOUSING AND URBAN DEVELOPMENT
Ms. McFadden. Thank you.
Chairman Sessions, other distinguished Members, my name is
Marion McFadden. On behalf of Secretary Marcia Fudge, thank you
for the opportunity to testify regarding HUD's efforts to
assist communities impacted by Hurricane Ian and other
disasters.
I serve as the Principal Deputy Assistant Secretary for the
Office of Community Planning and Development, which provides
about $10 billion annually to communities across the country
and has allocated more than $10 billion in the last 3 years
alone for recovery from the worst disasters.
Personally, I first engaged in Federal disaster recovery
efforts in the aftermath of 9/11. A decade later, I served as
the Chief Operating Officer and Acting Executive Director of
the Hurricane Sandy rebuilding taskforce. Working to improve
disaster recovery has been infused in every aspect of my career
in the public and private sectors.
Whether it is after a hurricane, fire, tornado, or other
catastrophic event, no two disasters are alike, but the people
whose lives are affected all need the same thing, a safe and
secure place to call home.
After Hurricane Ian, we worked across HUD to provide a
comprehensive response. We protected impacted homeowners by
providing a temporary moratorium on foreclosures of mortgages
we insure and made additional capital available. Additionally,
to allow homeowners to finance the repair or replacement of
damaged homes, HUD made insurance available for both mortgages
and home rehabilitation.
After terrible disasters like Hurricane Ian, we know that
everything has changed for impacted communities. We do not hold
grantees to the plans that they made before disasters to spend
their annual funds, because we know that priorities shift
toward recovery.
In October, I provided a package of waivers for formula
allocation programs to accelerate Florida's recovery. For
example, we waived the home program's matching requirement for
new construction of affordable housing. HUD established a
disaster technical assistance team of national experts to
supplement the work of our permanent Florida staff.
Secretary Fudge then announced the inaugural round of
funding for the rapid unsheltered survivor housing program, or
RUSH. RUSH was created to address homelessness by filling in
gaps for individuals who may not be eligible for other Federal
assistance.
Then in March, Secretary Fudge announced nearly $2.8
billion in additional recovery funding for communities in
Florida, including $1.1 billion in funding specifically for Lee
County. This long-term recovery funding is provided through the
community development block grant disaster recovery program, or
CDBG-DR, which primarily serves low to moderate income families
and communities.
Key decisions on how to spend these funds are made at the
state and local level. CDBG-DR is used for repairs and new
construction of homes for the redevelopment of damaged
infrastructure, like roads and bridges, and for small
businesses as they recover from their uninsured losses.
CDBG-DR supplements other Federal recovery assistance
programs administered by FEMA and SBA, as well as the United
States Army Corps of Engineers, but--and I think this is an
important point--it does not supplant them.
After HUD allocates CDBG-DR funding, jurisdictions prepare
plans to outline how they will use the funding. They seek
community feedback on their plans, and then they revise and
submit those plans for HUD's review. We provide regular
training and technical assistance, monitor grant
administration, and partner with our Office of the Inspector
General throughout the life of the grants to prevent fraud,
waste, and abuse, or duplication of benefits.
Communities receiving this funding routinely praise its
flexibility, the long-term nature of the assistance, and the
high levels of community engagement. They deeply value CDBG-DR
in the ability to fill the gaps that are left by the
underinsurance, and limited emergency response dollars.
However, we often hear that these funds do not reach
communities quickly enough.
HUD research demonstrates that it takes about 1-1/2 years
from the time of a disaster until the first CDBG-DR dollar is
spent on recovery efforts. Recently, for the first time, HUD
asked the public for feedback on how to simplify, modernize,
speed up, and more equitably, distribute CDBG-DR funds. We
received hundreds of recommendations and will make changes
administratively to further strengthen our disaster recovery
efforts.
However, the delay in assisting communities stems from the
fact that there is no permanent, reliable framework for this
aid. CDBG-DR lacks both standing, statutory authority, and an
annual appropriation. As of January 2023, Congress appropriated
a cumulative total of almost $100 billion for the CDBG-DR
program through individual supplemental appropriations.
The President, the HUD Office of Inspector General, and GAO
recommend permanent authorization of CDBG-DR as a way to remove
uncertainty about what resources will be available to allow
communities to better plan recovery activities and quickly
deliver assistance.
In conclusion, at HUD, we are all committed to supporting
Florida communities through their entire recovery, and I look
forward to any questions you may have.
Thank you.
Mr. Sessions. Thank you.
Mr. Donalds, you are recognized.
Mr. Donalds. Thank you, Chairman.
Witnesses, thank you so much for your time. A couple things
I want to get to.
Mr. McCool, quick--for you first. In May 23 of this year,
FEMA published a document titled, ``Questions and Answers About
Travel Trailer Removal on Barrier Islands.'' Specifically, the
document says that the August 1 target date for removing
trailers should allow many homeowners to complete their repairs
and return to their homes.
Can you please provide an update on whether FEMA has
repossessed any trailers allocated to my constituents in
Barrier Islands?
Mr. McCool. Yes, sir. Thank you for the question.
As you know, Pine Island, Sanibel, and Fort Myers Beach
were catastrophic. At the end state, we ended up putting 111
travel trailers on those three islands. There are 16 that are
left now. Those folks that have moved out have either moved
into another FEMA facility, like a direct lease, an apartment,
or their home has been repaired. And there is 16 households
that have elected to stay, and they know the risk that they are
under.
Mr. Donalds. OK, but let me follow up to that question,
because there were two issues surrounding travel trailers. The
first was the initial deployment, which, in my view, took
forever and a day, considering the fact that we had people who
were instantly displaced.
The second concern was there was a concern with FEMA around
FEMA's regulation about putting travel trailers in a flood
zone. But Southwest Florida, we are in a flood zone for the
most part.
So, can you speak specifically to the initial delay and to
the regulatory issues surrounding FEMA's position around travel
trailers in a flood zone considering the fact that the disaster
area is in a flood zone?
Mr. McCool. There's a myriad of regulations and policies
that we work through. The bottom line is, if there is no
practicable solution, we are allowed to put, after intense
coordination with the local building official, flood plain
manager in each community, travel trailers or manufactured
housing units in a special flood hazard area.
So, of the 1,335 units that are in, 933 are in a special
flood hazard area, and 111 were placed out on the three
islands, and like I said, 16 remain now. We did--the good news
is every person, every household has a housing solution. We
will complete the housing mission at the end of this month.
Mr. Donalds. All right, specific to that, though, can you
speak to the timetable between a request for housing assistance
from a resident in a special flood area to the time when FEMA
actually made the determination that they could place trailers
in the special flood area? Like, how much time are we talking
about?
Mr. McCool. It was about 45 days.
Mr. Donalds. OK. What are the regulatory concerns
surrounding FEMA taking 45 days--not so much regulatory
concerns. What are the procedural concerns around it taking
FEMA 45 days to make such a declaration? Like internally, is
there an issue around process time? Approval stage? Is it
highly bureaucratic? Do you have to get authorization from the
Director of Homeland Security? Is this an internal FEMA matter?
Like, walk me through that. Why does it take 45 days?
Because understand, from my vantage point, I have got
residents who are out of a house. The first couple days they
are trying to figure out what is going on, then they make a
request, and then they are waiting 45 to 60 days. And I will
add, Mr. McCool, sometimes longer than that.
So, walk me through the internal process at FEMA. And what
would be your recommendation on how to repair that for the
future?
Mr. McCool. Well, you know, because you have been in them,
and I saw you in many of the shelters. From the shelters, we
had transitional shelter assistance, think of hotels, in three
states, and we had thousands of households in those
transitional shelter assistance waiting for a temporary housing
solution, whether it be a travel trailer, mobile home, direct
lease, or a multi-family repair.
We worked through, in 45 days, the regulatory and policy
requirements, and I do not think we could have worked any
faster. And the bottom line is, we have to keep people safe. We
do not want to put people at risk, and so we did a very
deliberate flood risk analysis, both for the three islands and
every county that was affected, and we had a direct housing
mission for it, and that took about 45 days.
So, I am confident that the units that are placed are
safely placed in a special flood hazard area, which we do not
usually do. This is a unique situation.
Mr. Donalds. OK, but I am going to follow up to that follow
up.
I am confused, because FEMA already draws basically the
flood maps for the United States. So, FEMA already has an
understanding of what are your baseline flood zones, your high-
risk flood zones, et cetera. So that data already exists.
So, let me ask it this way: What would you say, what would
you recommend to Congress to essentially alleviate or to make
it far more streamlined the regulatory burden you are under for
making these disaster decisions? Because the No. 1 thing we
want to make sure occurs is that the Federal Emergency
Management Agency can be depth and flexible enough to respond
to emergencies in real time, not go through regulatory checks
while people are struggling in real life.
So, what would you recommend to us in terms of what are the
regulatory or statutory changes FEMA might need so that we do
not have to go through, for lack of a better phrase, a
bureaucratic workflow like this in the future?
Mr. McCool. The regulatory requirements that we have now, I
think are effective to keep people safe, and we put units
safely in a flood zone----
Mr. Donalds. But Mr. McCool--so let me paint this picture
for you. It is now October 24. You are a month displaced, 28
days. You are in a shelter. You are not quite sure what is
going on. It is still hot here in Southwest Florida. How are
you safe?
Or better yet, let us say you are not in a shelter. What if
you are somebody who is still living in their structure because
they choose not to go to a shelter because they do not want to
leave their property behind. How are they more safe living in
their house that is damaged by storm while FEMA is going
through a process to establish if whether a travel trailer can
sit in their driveway on Fort Myers Beach where if you just
walk down the street of Fort Myers Beach, although there was a
ton of debris all over the place, as long as you cleared the
pad, the trailer can sit there.
Like, walk me--that is what I am trying to understand. And
as I ask that question, I am saying that not from, you know,
with all due respect to my staff, not a list of questions my
staff has. That is talking with people who were on the ground
day 1, day 10, day 25 trying to figure out where is the housing
mission with respect to FEMA?
We are now in August. So, OK, the housing mission, to your
words, are about to be finished, but the storm was 10 months
ago.
Mr. McCool. Yes, sir.
Mr. Donalds. So that is what I am trying to ascertain. I do
not know if you can help me with that.
Mr. McCool. Every case is different. We talked to each
survivor 22 times before they went into a household, accessing
functional needs, family composition, the placement of the unit
on your private site or getting a commercial park, removing the
debris, identifying a group site. All of that takes time.
Mr. Donalds. OK.
Let me ask you this: What are some examples of unintended
consequences that FEMA has experienced based on specific United
States Code provisions passed by Congress over the years? You
have been doing this a long time. I am quite sure internally,
you guys are like, oh, my gosh, I cannot believe they passed
this back in 1992. This was stupid. Or I cannot believe they
did this post Katrina. I got what they were trying to do, but
it is not really helpful.
What are you guys internally saying about some of the stuff
that is in the United States Code that we can adjust?
Mr. McCool. I would like to get back to you on the record
with the specifics of that, Congressman.
Mr. Donalds. On the record or off the record?
Mr. McCool. On the record.
Mr. Donalds. Oh, OK.
Mr. McCool. Yes.
Mr. Donalds. Mr. Chairman, I do not know if other Members
have questions. I have got other questions, but I want to make
sure I let the Members have time.
Mr. Sessions. Yes, sir.
So, let us come to some agreement here that you have agreed
that you will provide this Committee and the gentleman, Mr.
Donalds, that information that you do not have readily
available right now. When would the gentleman be providing
that?
Mr. McCool. We will work quickly with our staff at
headquarters, and our goal is 2 weeks.
Mr. Sessions. The gentleman has suggested that it would be
2 weeks. I would agree to that.
Mr. Donalds. That is fine.
Mr. Sessions. What would the gentleman, Mr. Donalds, say?
Mr. Donalds. That is fine by me. That would work.
Mr. Sessions. We would agree with that, Mr. McCool. Thank
you very much. A professional response we expect and want to
thank you very much.
As we had stated from the beginning, the outcome we wanted
decision-makers who are here. That does not mean you understand
every single circumstance, and we respect and appreciate that.
I would now like to move to the gentleman, Mr. Biggs. The
gentleman is recognized.
Mr. Biggs. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you for
holding this hearing today. Thank you, Representative Donalds,
for hosting as well. I appreciate all the witnesses here for
this panel and the next panel as well, and I appreciate the
community for hosting and the law enforcement who are here.
And I have a few things, but I am going to come back to the
bone that Mr. Donalds has kindly set out for me to chew some
meat off of, but before I get there, I want to just go through
some other stuff as well.
FEMA, Small Business Administration, the Department of
Housing and Urban Development are among the more than 30
Federal agencies that Congress has tasked with programs focused
on disaster relief and recovery efforts. It is no secret that
the past work of programs can be a nightmare to disaster
survivors and communities to navigate, but Congress' ad hoc
approach to providing support for these programs contributes to
delays in the deployment of resources to impacted communities.
I think, and I think what Mr. Donalds is getting at and
what I want to make as the theme is, Congress is as much
responsible for any flaws in disaster relief as any agency for
sure, and that is why I think he is asking those questions, and
that is why I am going to follow up on some of those questions
in just a second.
I have concerns that even when we authorize programs, they
may obscure the risk, financial, and risk to actualize that
Americans face from natural disasters.
This hearing is also incredibly timely. As we approach the
1-year anniversary of Hurricane Ian's landfall, FEMA's most
recent report on the disaster relief funds suggest that it will
be depleted near the end of the fiscal year. The national flood
insurance program will expire on September 30, and reports
indicate that the Biden Administration will be requesting as
much as $12 billion in disaster funding at some point this very
day.
I appreciate the opportunity to hear from the members of
the community who were impacted by Ian and from the agencies
responsible.
So, first, for each of you, can you discuss what funding
your respective agencies may be seeking in this disaster
supplemental and how that funding will be put to use? We will
start with Ms. McFadden.
Ms. McFadden. I am not aware of any funding for HUD. Thank
you, sir.
Mr. Biggs. Thank you.
Mr. Sanchez?
Mr. Sanchez. I am not aware of funding needs, sir.
Mr. Biggs. Thank you.
Mr. McCool?
Mr. McCool. Yes, sir. I understand that a supplemental
request will be moving forward imminently.
Mr. Biggs. I know that. That is what I just said. How much
money are you asking for? Is FEMA asking for any money in this
disaster supplemental?
Mr. McCool. Yes, sir. I have to get the specifics for you
for the record.
Mr. Biggs. OK. I would really--since it is being requested
today, I would assume that you can probably get that in the
next 15, 20 minutes. You have got good staff there. I think
they can make a call to HQ and find out for us, and I would
like it before we leave the hearing, to know how much, please.
Mr. McCool. Yes, sir.
Mr. Biggs. So, I want to get back to the thematically
important topic that my colleague, Mr. Donalds, has brought
forward, and I want to--he is such a diplomat, and he does it
very nicely. And I do not want--I am not trying to be
antagonistic. I am just trying to understand.
There has got to be--because you kept saying you had some
regulatory constraints that took 45 days there. What are those
regulatory constraints? Can you cite some specific code or
rules or regulations and give us some numbers so that we can
understand what those constraints are?
Mr. McCool. Sir, most of it is in 44 CFR part 60.3, part 9.
They have to do with environmental flood plain management, et
cetera. And so, as we work through those issues, down to each
community, each community has a building official and flood
plain administrator, and they may have different standards of
where we can put manufactured housing units so--and then there
is environmental standards, and then there is working in the
special flood hazard areas, and we do not put travel trailers
in high hazard areas, V zones, et cetera.
So those are the--but once we find out there is no
practicable solution and can justify that, and in conjunction
we are doing a pretty detailed risk analysis on each individual
unit going in----
Mr. Biggs. And so that is the regulatory constraint, and
then you have staffing constraints because you are evaluating
each unit, basically, is what you are telling me?
Mr. McCool. Each survivor is different, and each has
different needs, based on family composition, based on mobility
issues, ADA compliance. Each and every situation is different.
And what we like to do is put units close to the home,
close to where the schools are, close to where the doctors are.
You know, we could easily put up group sites 100 miles away and
people would not come. So, we have to talk to the survivors. We
have to figure out what their needs are. Our No. 1 focus is
taking care of our survivors and what their needs are.
Mr. Biggs. Ms. McFadden, let us--I am going to leave that
to come back to Mr. Donalds at some point. I do not even have
any time to yield to you, Mr. Donalds. If I did, I would be
yielding some time to you, but I am over. But the Chairman is
really relaxed on the rules today, which I am grateful for.
So, Ms. McFadden, in your written testimony, you mentioned
that it takes around 18 months from the time of a disaster
until the first CDBG-DR dollar is spent. This is, of course,
assuming that Congress even appropriates funding.
And this is a critical issue. This is one of the issues
that I want people to understand. There are 1,200 unauthorized
programs, departments, and agencies in the Federal Government
today accounting for over $500 billion of spending, even though
those programs are not authorized, including what we are
talking about today. And in September, if we do not do anything
more, that will increase to over 1,500 and approach $1 trillion
in spending that is going to unauthorized programs.
What problems incur because Congress has failed to act on
reauthorizing the program, Ms. McFadden?
Ms. McFadden. Thank you for the question.
The first problem is when the worst disasters happen, my
counterparts and other agencies immediately start moving
funding, start working with survivors. We wait and hope, for
the most part, that funding will be made available.
Because we do not have a permanently authorized program, we
have been advised by our lawyers that we cannot write
regulations. So, it is unclear to communities, if they get the
funds, what the rules will be. And so, they have to----
Mr. Biggs. Can I just interrupt you on that point just for
a sec? Because there is no authorization, you cannot write the
rules, and so every disaster has a different set of rules----
Ms. McFadden. We have to publish----
Mr. Biggs [continuing]. Provided you get the money and
authorization.
Ms. McFadden. Exactly right, sir. We have to publish the
rules as a Federal register notice.
So, we have heard from communities in jurisdictions that
have had multiple years of funding how frustrating it is to
have to track back to old Federal register notices to try to
understand the rules as they are administering multiple grants,
which may change over time.
The benefit to that, going back many years, is that we
could take lessons learned and apply them, but now that we have
been in this business of doing disaster recovery for many, many
years, every year or every other year, we know that we are
ready for a permanently authorized program and a real
rulemaking process to remove that uncertainty.
Mr. Biggs. Thank you.
And I am way over time, but I will just tell you that gets
back to my part of this theme is that Congress is as much to
share blame as any agency does, and Congress better step up and
get itself together, not just in this area but in those 1,500
programs, departments, and agencies. We need to determine if we
are going to authorize them or not and get the work done on
that.
I yield back. Thanks.
Mr. Sessions. The gentleman yields back his time. Thank you
very much.
The gentleman from North Carolina, Mr. Edwards, is
recognized.
Mr. Edwards. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
All of you, thanks. Thanks for being here. Representative
Donalds, thank you for bringing this together. I think all of
us on this panel experienced natural disasters at one time or
another, and so, while I know that this hearing is very centric
to south Florida, it will have implications for us around the
country. So, thank you for helping convene us.
Mr. McCool, just real quick. Mr. Donalds had asked a
question about regulations that might need to be looked at, and
you said you would get back to us in 2 weeks. This panel is
certainly amenable to that.
I am just curious. Why would you not have those answers
available today? Why would it take 2 weeks to pull those
together?
Mr. McCool. Sir, I have been laser-focused on Hurricane Ian
for the last year, and prior to that, I am a field person that
manages the response to and recovery from disasters.
Mr. Edwards. And I understand that. With all due respect,
because you have been dealing with that for, let us say, the
last 10 months, it seems to me like some of those would be top
of mind, and I just find that very curious that you would need
to say you needed 2 weeks to pull that together.
And because I have got limited time, and I want Mr. Donalds
to have as much time as possible, I will move on to my next
question.
All of you had mentioned that--and I think we all agree--
every disaster is different, but it seems like there are an
awful lot of similarities. Hard winds come through, buildings
get destroyed, houses get destroyed, businesses get closed,
streets get flooded, utilities go out. I mean, there is a lot
of similarities that should not catch us by surprise.
And so, I am just curious. After hearing you say, or remind
us that every disaster is different, how would you say that
this disaster has been different than others that you have
dealt with in the past? And I would appreciate an answer from
each of you.
Ms. McFadden, we will start down here.
Ms. McFadden. I would just highlight the coastal nature,
the impact of so many folks living along the water and close to
waterways. So, in terms of thinking about resilience going
forward, we need to be thinking about building up and thinking
about elevation standards because it seems impracticable to try
to move people very far away from the coast.
Mr. Edwards. All right, thank you.
And so that strikes me by surprise because there is a
coastal nature, it appears to me, with most every hurricane
that we experience.
Mr. Sanchez, how is this disaster different than those you
have seen in the past?
Mr. Sanchez. Congressman, I appreciate your point. I think
there are some similarities. I think we come in for some local
perspective with some humility. You see one hurricane, you have
seen one hurricane.
But there are some similarities across that, and one of the
things we continue to see across the board as we have more
disasters--18 separate $1 billion-disasters last year, seven
this year. Unfortunately, we will probably break that record--
is we have an expectation from our constituents that we improve
the sequence and that we are better and quicker at delivering
those resources and how we bring in, from our SBA, for example,
our whole of SBA to that to be able to meet those growing
needs.
And so, for us, I think one of the things that has been
exciting is bringing the whole-of-SBA approach. You know, we
see here in this community some of the challenges, like on the
coast where I come from, is how do we also move recovery and
time natural resilience as someone is rebuilding.
We are starting hurricane season now, so we want to make
sure they are more resilient for the storms ahead as well.
Mr. Edwards. Thank you.
And so, in the interest of time, I am going go to move on.
I will let you off the hook, Mr. McCool. I am going to move on
to my next question.
Is there a regular process after a disaster like this where
multiple agencies drop back after--again, after the fact, and
talk with one another to do a formal after-action review? I
mean, it obviously requires a lot of coordination between
multiple agencies. I am just wondering is there a formal
process in place for you to do that? And if so, has that taken
place yet after this disaster?
Mr. McCool, we will start down here.
Mr. McCool. Yes, sir. Thank you for the question.
We currently have seven other Federal agencies in our JFO
right now. So, we have--and they are focused on the long-term
recovery. As a matter of fact, we are doing a pilot program
with SBA. We have 20 SBA staff looking at the long-term
recovery for this disaster, which was catastrophic.
So yes, of the 4,000 staff from the FEMA side that were
deployed, each of them have formal AAR processes and lessons
learned that they do, and we coordinate with our other Federal
agencies.
Mr. Edwards. And is there a report provided to Congress or
some other entity after this review is completed?
Mr. McCool. Our report is forwarded to headquarters. I will
have to get back to you to see if it is sent to Congress or----
Mr. Edwards. All right. Thank you.
I would like to ask one more question real quick, because
this has implication to us in the mountains of western North
Carolina, where one of the most recent disasters for us was
complicated by what has been described to me as a
overcomplicated application process.
Is there anything--have any of you heard that before, and
is there anything being done to streamline the application
process?
Mr. McCool, probably you would be most appropriate to
answer.
Mr. McCool. Yes, sir. Yes, sir.
Yes, sir, I have heard that. One of our Administrator's
goals, top priority, is to reduce paperwork and streamline the
application process for survivors so they have access to our
programs.
We use disaster survivor assistance teams. As a matter of
fact, we have 657 of them here for Hurricane Ian. But, in rural
areas like you are, they have iPads, tablets, and they are able
to go house to house to register survivors on the FEMA side.
We also have mobile emergency response vehicles that we
will be able to set up in parking lots, and they are mobile,
and they have satellite capabilities.
Mr. Edwards. All right. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank you for
the latitude to go a bit over.
I will yield. Thank you.
Mr. Sessions. Gentleman yields back.
At this time, I'll now yield myself time.
It is easier when you play the position I do, because you
can hear the responses. And I want to go back to some of the
things that both--all three of our Members have brought up. It
may be rehashing. I want to dig a little bit deeper if I can.
We heard, Mr. McCool, that there were 111 travel trailers
that were provided. Today, some 16 remain. Is that correct?
Mr. McCool. Yes, sir.
Mr. Sessions. You brought in some 250 people to help, and I
know they are not all in that--the trailers, but they are into
removing dangerous items, preparing, long-term planning, each
of those things.
It seems like, to me, that some of the rules and
regulations related to that could be streamlined. I think you
have agreed to look at some of these things. But I am
interested in what Mr. Edwards said about this report, what
might be an after-action or a mid-action report.
I believe that you, at FEMA, are the lead on behalf of the
efforts that go on here. Is that correct?
Mr. McCool. For the temporary housing mission? Yes, sir.
Mr. Sessions. No, sir. I am sorry. Let me go back.
Got the housing. Is there a lead for the Federal Government
from Article II, which are these agencies--is there a lead
person who is in charge of or was in charge of coming down and
coordinating the response on behalf of the Federal Government?
Mr. McCool. Sir, I was the Federal Coordinating Officer,
and my responsibility is to lead the response and coordinate
recovery efforts, so that would be me.
Mr. Sessions. Then this is what I am suggesting. So, in my
opinion, FEMA, you, would be that lead coordinator.
Mr. McCool. Yes, sir.
Mr. Sessions. That means that you would be responsible--
with some sort of a battle plan, so to speak, you would
coordinate with SBA. You would coordinate with HUD. You would
understand these other agencies that were involved?
Mr. McCool. Yes, sir.
Mr. Sessions. And you believe that that response that you
have gotten may or may not exist, that report, and it may or
may not have gone to Congress?
Mr. McCool. I do not know if it has gone to Congress, sir.
I will check and get back to you for the record.
Mr. Sessions. But one exists?
Mr. McCool. The----
Mr. Sessions. This overall plan, FEMA as the lead----
Mr. McCool. Uh-huh.
Mr. Sessions [continuing]. Is responsible for the
coordination. That would tell me that FEMA, the coordinator,
was aware of circumstances, the need, the result, the
interaction, the moving the government toward their answers
across the board. Is that correct?
Mr. McCool. Yes, sir. We have incident strategic plans that
cover all Federal actions.
Mr. Sessions. Yes, sir. Well, you mentioned you had some
4,000 people that could----
Mr. McCool. Uh-huh.
Mr. Sessions [continuing]. Be providing feedback.
Mr. McCool. Uh-huh.
Mr. Sessions. But does it come to a point where there is a
lead coordinator within FEMA, presumptively you?
Does that move upstream to where there is a list of the
needs, of the priorities, of the advancement toward those
goals? Is that ever coordinated, or----
Mr. McCool. Oh, yes, sir.
Mr. Sessions [continuing]. Is everybody on their own?
Mr. McCool. Oh, no, sir. On a daily basis, we have unified
coordination group meetings, and we set objectives, priorities,
and we track them, and we follow them. We have metrics to them.
And we do that since day one of this disaster, and we do that
for all of our disasters.
Mr. Sessions. OK. So, in that coordination, was there
conversation with your key partners about looking at this
disaster? I know we have said a hurricane is kind of a
hurricane and yet, there are particulars because of the people
or the locations.
Is there conversation about CDBG money and its impact on
this island and following the law or discretion that may be
necessary; of the total amount of money, housing versus
businesses?
Was that ever in the conversation?
And what is your thinking there?
The reason why I say this, because I come from the business
community in my background.
Mr. McCool. Uh-huh.
Mr. Sessions. And the business community has to have
businesses back up if they are going to provide what could be
revenue to the city or to the organization to make sure it
continues.
What was your evaluation as the lead of this group of
trying to coordinate that recommendation versus the guidelines?
Mr. McCool. All of the agencies I mentioned, to include HUD
and SBA, were mission assigned. And, in our joint field office
along with the state of Florida, Florida Department of
Emergency Management. And they are still there to this day up
in Lake Mary, as well as down here, right up the road.
And we coordinate on a weekly basis in terms of priorities,
in terms of what you need, what we could do, what you could
possibly do. That coordination is ongoing.
Mr. Sessions. What is your evaluation, any of the three of
you, on that recommendation for getting the money and handing
it out versus what might be affordable housing, what might be
SBA loans, which might be, actually, to look at the island, to
look at this area and say, here is real needs. Is there an
impediment to that process? Is there an impediment to that
outcome? Or do you have the ability to come in and say, we are
going to have to spend more money on businesses as opposed to
affordable housing because of the particular circumstance here?
Mr. McCool. We work close--do you want to take that? Sure.
Ms. McFadden. If I may, sir, in Washington, we are not
making the decisions about how the funds are used locally, and
it is not even the Federal Government with our counterparts in
Florida. With the CDBG funds, the state or the counties that
have been allocated the funds go through a local planning
process.
So, in allocating the funds to them, we use data from FEMA
and from the Small Business Administration about uninsured
losses. But, ultimately, those decisions are made by the state
and the county leaders.
Mr. Sessions. So, you are suggesting to me, very directly,
that that money would come--what we might call local money,
Federal money that would come.
Do you place restrictions or rules and regulations on
those?
Ms. McFadden. It is Federal money, so of course we do,
because we----
Mr. Sessions. OK.
Ms. McFadden [continuing]. Need to ensure compliance with
all the laws----
Mr. Sessions. All right.
Ms. McFadden [continuing]. And the regulations.
We are transparent in the data that we use in allocating,
and we say essentially, This is how much housing need we think
you have, how much small business need, and how much
infrastructure need.
Mr. Sessions. So, there is a recommendation?
Ms. McFadden. And, if you want to use it differently, come
and talk to us, show us how your local needs are different from
what the Federal data reflects.
Mr. Sessions. Is that within the discretion or a waiver
that we spoke about in the beginning? Is that----
Ms. McFadden. Depending on the unique circumstance, but we
routinely see communities spending their money moving amongst
the pots differently from how we initially did the allocation.
Mr. Sessions. Would that be up to a county to make that
decision----
Ms. McFadden. In----
Mr. Sessions [continuing]. Or would that be up to a state
to make that decision?
Ms. McFadden. In Florida, it would be either, because we
made allocations to the state as well as to multiple counties.
So, whoever has the direct relationship with HUD is the
decision-maker about how to do that plan.
Once they make the plan, they can amend the plan as well.
They are not held to it.
Mr. Sessions. Have they sought some of these waivers that
you have not approved?
Ms. McFadden. Unfortunately, we are just at the starting
gate now with the money. So, there are two plans out for public
review. Nothing has even come in to us. All the plans will come
to us by September 20.
Mr. Sessions. So, you believe, in your testimony today,
that the way the circumstances exist, that you would be given
that flexibility to effectively work with a local
establishment--a local government on that money, and that you,
under the law, would be flexible enough to understand their
individual needs?
Ms. McFadden. Yes, sir.
Mr. Sessions. That is important for me, and that is an
important part for this community to understand, because there
is a concern about the ability to have business come back that
provides the revenue and those mechanisms.
I am interested in going to SBA and their take on this
matter of the money that they would have available and whether
there are any rules or regulations that inhibit your
flexibility to effectively hear from what we have now heard Ms.
McFadden say, if you agree, local entities. In other words,
local legislative body being able to effectively deal with you,
and then with the end user, which might be someone that you are
going to give a loan to.
Mr. Sanchez. Sure. Chairman, thank you so much for that
question.
I think we are in an exciting time in SBA in that we used
to be a lend and leave program. We are probably reimagining the
greatest shift in how we approach disasters in the agency's 70-
year history.
When it comes to your question, we are looking at
everything, what is within our rulemaking, with a lens of
focused visiting with local businesses, chambers, and officials
to see, one, not just what we bring, what do you need so that
we can adapt to that, going just beyond lending, but bringing
other parts of SBA through reconsideration, helping people be
more resilient, having them access to other SBA programs that
we have not before.
So, for us, anything is on the table. We are here to learn.
This is the first time we have been here for midterm and long-
term recovery, so we are here to capture some lessons.
And I do appreciate the question, in terms of some
barriers, because we do have an ask in terms of what can be
done from our partners in Congress and elsewhere, is
duplication of benefits. It is a significant issue that impacts
the disaster survivor.
Right now, in just focusing on a relationship with FEMA, a
disaster survivor is considered to be taking duplication of
benefits if they get a $5,000 loan from FEMA and a $50,000
grant from SBA. That has become cumbersome.
So, a disaster survivor becomes very weary: Do I want this
program, or do I want that program? Am I in violation of the
law? Is this impeding future, down the line, some benefits I
could get from CGBR?
Let me do the math for you. The average payout for FEMA for
a grant is $5,000. The average loan for SBA is $50,000. By the
time you come to SBA, it is because you do not have the capital
that you need to recover, so you are coming here for a low-
interest, long-term loan so we can help.
And it frustrates me. Quite frankly, it frustrates disaster
survivors that they have to worry about that balance. And so,
the intent is we are a loan. At some point, you are going to
pay us back. And we have got some great success rates at that.
At the end of the day, the $5,000 that FEMA grants a
disaster survivor, whether it is exactly that $5,000 or, at
some point, that $5,000 over the 30-year loan is coming back--
and so, if our goal is to put as much capital on the ground, in
the hands of disaster survivors, to be on the ground quicker,
to rebuild quicker, and to get our economy moving back quicker,
that is the single greatest thing that I think Congress can do
right now in terms of when it comes to that front end of the
disaster, to help unleash the power of both those programs and
make it less complicated and less cumbersome for someone that
is going through a very bad day, post a disaster.
Mr. Sessions. Well, I did hear you allude to trying to make
decisions about which program you might want.
And then I heard you say, then, Congress might want to
streamline some things. What would you want Congress to
streamline? What authority would you like for us to give you?
Authority may be discretion. Authority may be the law.
Authority may be a timeframe.
What specifically would you say, because you are talking to
Members of Congress here, who are in the direct line of sight
to try and fix these things?
Mr. Sanchez. My ask, most simply, is this: Write into the
law that a loan from SBA and a grant from FEMA is not
considered a duplication of benefits. That is the one single
piece in law for us at the front end is complicating the life
for disaster survivors.
We are doing everything we can within our rulemaking to
better customer service, get on the ground quicker, be here
longer. But that is the single, most impactful thing that
Congress can do, is make sure that the FEMA grant and SBA loan
together are not considered a duplication of benefits.
Mr. Sessions. Thank you very much.
Does any other Member seek time? Round two.
The gentleman from Florida, Mr. Donalds, is recognized.
Mr. Donalds. So I am back again, I see.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Real quick, Ms. McFadden. A quick follow-up to a
conversation you were having with the Chairman around CDBG-DR
awards. I want to clarify this.
In the instance of where we are, let us say, in Lee County,
Florida, would Lee County, Florida, have essentially the
unilateral authority to make adjustments to an award in CDBG-DR
money if, in light of their work plan that they provide to HUD,
that they realize in actuality there are adjustments that do
need to be made? Do they have that authority to make that
decision?
Ms. McFadden. Not unilaterally, sir. We need to have some
conversations to understand why the current needs of the
community are not what we reflected.
So, per statute, 70 percent of the funds have to primarily
benefit people in communities that are up to 80 percent of area
median income. So, if there is any hope to do other than
primarily benefit low-and moderate-income people, that is
definitely going to require a waiver.
Mr. Donalds. Quick----
Ms. McFadden. But, when we look at between the different
categories of activities, we need to have some conversation,
but the permission to do that will not be unreasonably
withheld.
Mr. Donalds. OK. So, a quick follow-up to that, because you
make a key point about the percentage of median income. If the
county or counties or state--and this is a more broad question
throughout the country of this kind of a program--if the
determination is made that key infrastructure improvements are
critical to the livelihood of said residents, is HUD open to
that interpretation of disaster recovery awards under HUD?
Ms. McFadden. Historically, we have granted waivers. When--
to serve low-and moderate-income people, you have to do
something that is going to serve all the people. For example,
doing infrastructure repairs.
Mr. Donalds. OK. Thank you so much for that.
Mr. Sanchez, missed you the last time. I am back.
Obviously, we do understand here about SBA disaster
recovery awards. You stated in your testimony that 1.9 billion
was approved by SBA. I am going to assume, when you said the
impacted area or highly impacted area, 371 million, that is--
for argument sake, let us say specifically to the Barrier
Island region here in southwest Florida.
Is there a disconnect between loan approval and loan
disbursement? And the reason why I ask that is because I have
had several constituents who were frustrated with SBA, that SBA
would give them an approval for the loan, but disbursement is
at some time off in the future, that SBA never told
constituents when disbursement was going to occur.
And the reason I ask that is I am a recovering banker. If I
approve a loan, like, next day, we are disbursing funds.
So, can you speak to that?
Mr. Sanchez. Sure. Just a point of clarification. The $1.9
billion is for the entire disaster. The $371 million is for
businesses specifically. Typically lending works out 80 percent
homeowner/renters, 20 percent businesses.
Mr. Donalds. Fair enough.
Mr. Sanchez. But, in disbursement, there is a disconnect.
And I think we are tackling that. You have heard it from your
constituents. I have been here at least four times, meeting
with local folks. I have taken some of those constituent calls
myself to figure out what the issues are.
The best way to think about it is there are grants, and
then, at the end of the day, we are still a complex financial
transaction. We are trying to figure out how to make it less
complex and more customer driven.
And I get the frustration. After Hurricane Ike, it took my
mom 4 years to get back into her home. Those are the--that is
the view that I come from to these things.
And so, the way it works is you get a loan approval for
whatever amount that is. At then, initially, we disburse
$25,000 so they have at least that much capital to keep moving
forward and begin recovery.
The friction and the point points become is then, because
it is generally modeled after a construction loan, someone has
to submit additional paperwork to release more funds. So,
contractor estimates, building permits, insurance
documentation.
One of the things we are doing is trying to do a better job
of being more forthright for the customer of saying, what--you
know, what do you have to provide in the future? And, within
our own rulemaking authority, to the Chairman's question of,
you know, what can we do all better, is we have heard it here
for the past year. We have taken that back. We are rolling up
our sleeves, and we are delivering. There is more work to do.
But here is what we have done to reduce the paperwork. You
no longer have to provide that--again, to duplication of
benefits, you no longer have to provide that AIP, that
assurance of insurance proceeds. You do not have to do that
anymore. Do not have to do permits anymore.
We instituted that, hearing back from folks here on the
ground in February and May, so that is already having some
impacts. And so, for us, we still have some paperwork we are
going to have to require, but we are reducing that number to be
able to keep that money flowing as quickly as we can.
Mr. Donalds. OK. A follow-up to that.
So, if the process, generally speaking, is the way a bank
would manage a construction loan, where you are having to
verify receipt of key documents in order to release new funds,
totally understand that piece.
Broader question: Does SBA have the manpower in order to
effectively manage that when you have tens of thousands of
newly approved recipients coming in all at the same time trying
to get disbursements? Can SBA effectively manage the
construction loan--for argument sake, the construction loan
disbursal process in a disaster recovery scenario?
Mr. Sanchez. Yes, sir. So, a little bit of perspective. We
are currently on the ground in 22 disasters across this
country, nine states, two territories, 200 counties. And we
learned some lessons during COVID. And some of the biggest
transformations I talked about was the customer service
experience.
Step one was right people, right jobs. The lending piece,
direct loans used to be under my shop of recovery and
resilience. We have moved that now to capital access. They do
lending day in and day out, so right people, right jobs. They
have got the skill. They have got the talent. And a step to
that----
Mr. Donalds. Mr. Sanchez, real quick, it is not about
talent or skill. It is manpower and scalability. If you are in
22 areas of the country managing multiple natural disasters
from the Disaster Recovery Loan Program under SBA, do you have
the manpower to keep up with all of the constituency requests
in all this jurisdiction, because I will tell you that is like
a loan department at a $2 billion bank having fresh capital for
$10 billion. You do not have the manpower to do $10 billion in
loan disbursements. You do not.
And so that is why I go back to that original question.
Mr. Sanchez. Sure.
Mr. Donalds. I want to move off of that, because I think
that is something that we, probably with SBA, need to figure
out.
I want to talk inspectors, Mr. McCool. Got to come back to
you.
In a letter that was sent on March 21, 2023, to
Administrator Criswell--I sent--requesting two additional
program delivery managers, one additional taskforce lead, two
additional site inspector crew leads, 12 additional site
inspectors for Cape Coral, Fort Myers, Fort Myers Beach, and
Sanibel. Five months later, still no response from the
Administrator.
So, like, I do not even have a response from the
Administrator 5 months later. Why? What is the issue with
inspectors being able to be deployed to our area, because I am
quite sure you understand it is hard for my local government
individuals to get infrastructure projects up and running if I
cannot even get a FEMA inspector down here to approve what my
locals have already inspected, basically to sign off that it is
good to go for rebuilding.
So, what is the status, and why the backlog, and why is it
so difficult for us to be able to get FEMA inspectors in to
just sign off on the work that my local governments have been
doing for our infrastructure projects to get rebuilt and back
on track?
Mr. McCool. Sir, thank you--thank you for the question.
I will track down the response to that letter. I can tell
you, on the ground, we have 150 inspectors. Here, we have 50.
All the inspections are on track.
Lee County schools, for example, will be done within the
next 2 weeks. And all of the recovery scope and meetings that
our program delivery managers do are 100 percent complete.
So, I will get more information. I will work with your
staff and get more information.
Mr. Donalds. Yes. I would like to know that, because I
remember we had a meeting, and some of those officials are in
this room, and we were having meetings about the issue with
inspectors.
Mr. McCool. Right.
Mr. Donalds. And, just to be blunt, Mr. McCool, I started
talking to the press, started tweeting. And all of a sudden,
they are like, oh, somebody called. Like, you said something in
a presser, and we got a call from FEMA.
And, just to be blunt, I just do not think it should
operate that way. Regardless of who the Member is or what the
constituency is, if they need to be able to get those
inspectors into the area in a, almost, in a strike force type
of response, then that is just what needs to be figured out.
And, again, that kind of go goes back to one of my earlier
questions about what are the statutory--the statutory
refinement that needs to happen from Congress.
Last question, Mr. Sanchez, Mr. McCool. Thanks so much----
Mr. McCool. Yes, sir.
Mr. Donalds [continuing]. For all the witnesses being here.
Last question--and, Mr. Chairman, thank you for your
indulgence.
Mr. Sessions. Yes.
Mr. Donalds. Last question on this.
The runaround. A lot of my constituents have had issues
with paperwork fiascoes--something is not being spelled right;
having to get another document; the initial decline or the
initial disapproval they would receive from FEMA or SBA; and
then being told--actually, in this very building--that you are
going to get an initial decline, that just means you have to go
back and go through all the things that went wrong and then
reapply.
What--what needs to happen to stop that from occurring,
because, when people are in a disaster recovery mode, they do
not have time to check every dot. They are trying to assess
their lives.
So, can you guys speak to that? And what are we going to do
in your recommendations so that people get the help that they
need when they need it and not have to go through regulatory
check box?
Mr. Sanchez. Sure. Glad to start.
From our side, we have 22 people still here on the ground.
The approval and the first disbursement, one step. We
understand there are frustrations for the rest of that. And so
those customer issues, I have been involved with myself. I
handled probably five or six of those to get a lens on those.
And it is the paperwork.
So, one, we are reducing what people do not really need to
submit to us. It is a matter of process. We are taking outside
of the rules, and then working to make sure that, for the rest
of those--we are pivoting now. We are not waiting until this
recovery is over. We are changing those rules today. And so
those are the kinds of things we want to listen to.
You alluded to being referred from FEMA to SBA, to be
declined, to access other things at FEMA. We have already
reduced the threshold. Last hurricane season, because we got
that bureaucratic red tape out of the way, we were able to put
an additional $38 million on the ground to disaster survivors
that need it most. I think working with FEMA and our folks,
local, state, and Federal, I expect, in that partnership, that
that will be--I know from our folks on the other side of the
table, I think that it is less than a year before that is going
to be done away with, so you do not have to go through that
step.
And so, I know, across the board, we are figuring out how
we can do better, work quicker, and be more customer driven.
Mr. McCool. Sir, you are right. One of the things our
Administrator is trying to do is cut down on the bureaucratic
red tape and the access to our programs.
For example, in the past--if you were a renter or a
homeowner, you would have only certain documents to show that
you--to prove that. We have streamlined all that. And you can
do a whole myriad of electric bills or--or even a letter from a
county emergency manager or a county official. Yes, I am a
resident of that structure. Try to get access to our programs.
And we meet, as you well know, people at the worst time of
their lives. And, when they are in a disaster recovery center
maybe with just the Wal-Mart bag, we have to give them the
personal attention that they need and deserve. And you have our
assurance that our caseworkers at FEMA, who are still on the
job, will not rest until every survivor gets what they are
authorized to in accordance with our regulations. But we are
working hard to reduce the red tape.
Mr. Donalds. Thank you.
Mr. Sessions. Thank you very much.
Mr. Donalds. Thank you, Chair.
Mr. Sessions. The gentleman from Arizona, Mr. Biggs?
Mr. Biggs. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
And, out of respect for time for you, I thank you all for
being here, again.
And so, I had a bunch of questions that I already have here
that I did not get time to ask. So, Mr. Chairman, per normal, I
am going to submit those questions and encourage--and hope that
all of you would respond to the questions, because we will
submit questions in writing to you. And, again, thank you for
being here.
And thank you, Mr. Chairman. I will yield.
Mr. Sessions. Thanks very much.
Mr. Biggs has, in fact, has reiterated what I believe I
covered with each of you at the time we not only made a request
for you to be a part of this today, but personally with each of
you that have agreed to be here. We are going to use this as
getting us better. We are going to use it as an inward
viewpoint of not only the U.S. Congress and its responsibility,
but also the flexibility in laws and rules and regulations by
which you operate.
And I think what Mr. Biggs said is exactly right in his
insistence that I have seen in many areas, and that is we need
to get better. But Congress does play a role in that, and your
help in getting us there would be appreciated. And so, I hope
the spirit in which Mr. Biggs, Mr. Donalds, Mr. Edwards, and
myself have approached you today, that we would receive back
that opportunity.
Thank you very much.
The gentleman, Mr. Edwards, do you seek time?
Gentleman is recognized.
Mr. Edwards. If I may. And I do have several more
questions, but will submit those in writing.
Mr. Chair, if I might ask one question----
Mr. Sessions. Gentleman is recognized.
Mr. Edwards. In each of your opening statements, you seem
to have indicated that we keep score by the amount of dollars
that are distributed. And I am not taking that away, because we
all live and die by dollars. But I am also curious to know: Do
you live by or do you measure the effectiveness of your
particular agencies by any performance metrics other than just
how many dollars that we are able to distribute?
And you can make that real quick. Mr. McCool, we will start
with you.
Mr. McCool. Yes, sir. Yes, sir. Thank you for the question.
In each of our program areas, we do have metrics, and we
follow up on those metrics. I will take housing for an example.
Housing is tough. It is tough. We absolutely acknowledge that,
especially in a special flood hazard area. It is tough.
Our public assistance program, you know, the roads, the
bridges, building the infrastructure, that takes time. And the
billions of dollars that we will spend and work to achieve
those goals, we track progress and measure success project by
project.
I mean, in Lee County alone, you know, so far, there is
$180 million obligated for about 100 VA projects, a billion
dollars almost in the queue. So, we measure each and every one
of those, project by project.
On the individual assistance side, I mentioned housing. We
are going out every month, and we are meeting with the
survivors and figuring out and trying to work to their
permanent housing solution.
So yes, sir, we do.
Mr. Edwards. All right. Thank you.
Mr. McCool. We have metrics that we follow.
Mr. Edwards. Thank you. And, in the--and I appreciate that.
And, in the interest of time, because I am going to have
more follow-up questions on these answers, I will be very
specific in the questions that I submit.
So, thank you. Thank you for your indulgence.
And thank you for being here. We appreciate you taking the
time.
Mr. Sessions. Gentleman yields back his time.
I will be the last person to address this panel, and I want
to also make sure that each of you know how much we appreciate
not only your time, but the time in preparation, but also the
time in finalizing this. When we come up with our questions, we
will get them to you.
I would like to not ask a question, but, rather, to allude
to an issue, because I think Mr. Edwards was there, Mr.
Donalds' was kind of was a follow-up to mine, and that is: I am
wanting to make sure we get closer on this understanding about
CDBG money and the things that would flow.
I heard Ms. McFadden very carefully, and I agree with her
that they will offer the money with what they believe is how it
would be used. Now, that is, until you tell me differently, you
are going to do it the way we do it.
But I think that what Mr. Donalds is asking for--and I
would be seeking the same thing also--that is the ability to
come back with thank you for your view of this, we believe the
view should be different. We believe the view should be based
upon our actual needs.
That is the crux of an issue that I really want to dig at
about what sort of flexibility, because it is not thy will do
this, but I want to make sure it is--and we can take into
account and we have the flexibility to now agree with you, as
opposed to, no, it says here 70/30, and thy shall not break
that.
I would like to make sure that we allow that opportunity in
law to give you, under this emergency determination that the
President might be given--the corresponding agencies would be
given the flexibility in negotiation erring on the side of some
bit of understanding as opposed to a hard-and-fast rule.
So, I want to thank each of you. It is our hope--and I
stated this when we were in the back room--it is my hope that
you will be able to take time to hear from customers, people
who live here, constituents.
Mr. Donalds has a staff that has, quite honestly, been, I
think, doing a great job with limitations that you had, and he
had. But we are going to hear back in the second panel.
So, I excuse each of the witnesses at this point and would
ask that the next panel please present themself.
We will be in recess for 2 minutes while that occurs.
[Recess.]
Mr. Sessions. The Committee will come to order.
I am very pleased to move forward to our second panel, and
I met each of these gentlemen last night and want to introduce
them at this time.
The gentleman, Brian Hamman, serves as Chairman and
District 4 Commissioner on the Lee County Board of County
Commissioners. In the private sector, Mr. Hamman serves as
President and CEO of the Greater Fort Myers Chamber of
Commerce.
His testimony today will provide insight into the issues
that county-wide government faced in responding to this
hurricane's impact.
Second, the gentleman, the Honorable Kevin Anderson, was
sworn in as the 62nd Mayor of Fort Myers, Florida, on November
16, 2020, after serving as Ward 4 Councilman for 2 previous
years. Before taking office, Mayor Anderson served for 24 years
in Fort Myers Police Department, law enforcement.
Mr. Anderson's testimony will also provide perspective
about the challenges municipal governments in this region have
faced following the challenges of the hurricane.
Last, my friend, Chauncey Goss, is a resident of Sanibel,
Florida, who, like other local witnesses and many in the
audience today, lived through this hurricane and can attest to
the challenges that southwest Florida faced in its aftermath.
Mr. Goss is actively involved in local business and
regional government, but his testimony today will focus on the
perspective of individual residents and families affected by
the storm.
Mr. Goss, I would like for you to know that your father,
Porter Goss, is a very dear friend of mine, served on the Rules
Committee for a number of years. And I was honored to have
served with your father. And it is my hope that you will be
able to offer your father and your mother the best from our
visit here today.
Pursuant to Committee Rule 9(g), the witnesses will now
stand and raise their right hand.
Do you solemnly swear or affirm that the testimony that you
are about to give is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing
but the truth, so help you God?
Let the record reflect that all three witnesses answered in
the affirmative.
The gentlemen, you may be seated.
We appreciate each of you being here today. We appreciate
your balance and the time that you are spending to be able to
work through and talk about things that are very difficult,
painful to you, painful to others. But you are leaders. You are
expected to come and bring your ideas to the table and to
effectively present those.
I am very sure that that is exactly where we are today,
that each of you are prepared to present yourself in a way that
will benefit not just this Committee, but the people of this
area. And I want to thank you very much.
We will move first to Mr. Hamman. The gentleman is
recognized.
STATEMENT OF BRIAN HAMMAN
CHAIRMAN
LEE COUNTY BOARD OF COMMISSIONERS
Mr. Hamman. Thank you very much. Good morning, Mr. Chair--
--
Mr. Sessions. That microphone, please, sir.
Mr. Hamman. I apologize.
Mr. Sessions. Yes, sir.
Mr. Hamman. Well, good morning, Chairman and distinguished
Committee Members. Thank you very much for coming to Lee
County.
On behalf of the residents of Lee County, I want to thank
you very much for your interest in this topic and would like to
take a moment just to thank all of America for the outpouring
of support and love in the wake of Hurricane Ian. This was a
disaster like none other that we had ever seen, and it felt
like America wrapped its arms around us and was there for us
when we needed it. So, thank you.
This morning, I would like to begin with some prepared
remarks. At this moment, Hurricane Ian is ranked as the third
costliest tropical system to make landfall in the United
States, only behind Hurricane Katrina in 2005 and Hurricane
Harvey in 2017.
As a native of Lee County, I can testify that Hurricane Ian
struck a blow to our home like none other. We had seen
hurricanes before, but none like this. And recovering from a
storm like this will take many more months and perhaps many
more years.
On September 28, 2022, Ian pummeled Lee County with wind
speeds of 155 miles per hour and gusts of around 161 miles per
hour. It brought 15 feet of storm surge. It destroyed more than
5,000 homes, 284 businesses. Another 910 businesses suffered
major damage. In total, Lee County believes we have $112
billion in damages.
The tropical storm impacted every beach, all county parks,
and every single traffic signal. And I can say you do not
realize how much you appreciate stopping at a red light until
they are all gone. The amount of debris was staggering, more
than 11 million cubic yards of debris countywide.
Some of the most memorable images of this storm will be the
bridges on Sanibel and Matlacha that were broken. But the
devastation to our infrastructure was much deeper than that.
Within Lee County government, our largest infrastructure hits
were to these departments: Utilities, parks and recreation, and
facilities and construction management. For example, in our
county government damage assessment inventory, it shows an
estimated cost of $297.3 million, and our utilities department
alone makes up about 19 percent of that number.
As with any disaster of this scale, our Federal partners
were and still are critical to our response. FEMA, the Small
Business Administration, and HUD have worked side by side with
us. And, as with every process, there are highlights, and there
are challenges with these agencies.
When speaking about FEMA, we were exceptionally grateful
that FEMA had a representative arrive to work in the emergency
operations center prior to landfall on Tuesday, September 27.
And this enabled us to work with someone who could communicate
with FEMA's command center directly from our emergency
operations center.
FEMA also embedded a gold incident management team within
days of landfall, providing a direct line from Lee County to
Federal leadership. All Federal agencies, from Health and Human
Services, the White House, Department of Defense partners, this
was critical to have those lines of communication open because
of that gold incident management team.
FEMA stood up a large number of very effective disaster
survivor assistance teams and disaster recovery centers. These
were all exceptionally productive. We had challenges, though,
with FEMA, related to in-the-field communications, lack of
inspectors, and lack of trailers.
For example, FEMA did not meet our community's expectation
for trailer arrival. Some communities take months before they
establish a need. We were ready for this help 45 days after
landfall. FEMA needs to be ready to mobilize on the community's
timeline if FEMA is going to meet the community's needs.
And it did not help that FEMA initially blamed its slow
process on our local land development code. This triggered
waves of distrust from the public with government and a rift
between Federal and county collaboration.
Finally, given the storm's magnitude, FEMA needed more of
its inspectors here sooner rather than later. FEMA also
discredited our local elected property appraiser by issuing a
letter advising the county not to rely on his values for making
substantial damages determinations. This caused unnecessary
panic and a slowdown for people seeking permits to rebuild.
SBA: We were grateful for the SBA representatives who were
engaged in our community. They attended public meetings, they
interacted with individuals, they networked at events, and they
handed out cell phone numbers. Anecdotally, we know of
individuals who had positive interactions and received SBA
loans somewhat quickly.
The challenge was that SBA's experience is inconsistent.
Many, particularly those with catastrophic loss, were
challenged to produce the myriad documents necessary to obtain
help. And, as local government elected officials, we were
challenged to get straight answers from SBA related to
allocations versus distributions for those in our community.
The SBA is accustomed to reporting allocations as primary
performance metrics, but what was needed was proof that the
dollars were actually flowing into individuals' accounts. This
caused mistrust among local officials and SBA reps and
misinformation among community members.
And of course, there was the perpetual challenge that the
SBA perception is that it is for businesses and not
individuals. Perhaps it could be put under the FEMA individual
assistance classification.
And then, finally, the HUD Department. HUD provided near
immediate onsite technical assistance through the Office of
Special Needs Assistance Programs to assist with the
consolidation and closure of mass shelters. The HUD field
office provided real-time support and funding flexibility
through grant or agreement amendments to provide rental
assistance for households leaving mass shelters without a
residence.
We are grateful that HUD provided a direct allocation of
$1.1 billion to support recovery in a timely manner and that
HUD assigned Aaron Gagne from the Office of Disaster Recovery
to support Lee County's CDBG-DR allocation process.
Mr. Gagne was assigned to New York City after Hurricane
Sandy, which was actually the largest direct allocation
program, I believe. It was $4.2 billion. His extensive
knowledge and lessons that he learned from that program have
continued to benefit us here in Lee County. The experience
really mattered.
The challenge, though, with HUD is that, in as much as the
funding is in response to the hurricane, the ability to
disburse the funds in the community takes time and is complex.
There is a disconnect between saying `hurricane repair funding'
and having the money then arrive more than a year after
landfall.
Some immediate needs and continued unmet needs are unable
to be met using these HUD funds due to program limitations,
such as the creation of volunteer housing. The public and local
officials are having a hard time also comprehending the
eligibility requirements specifically related to the low to
moderate income limits.
In my opinion, as a resident born and raised here and a
County Commissioner, local jurisdictions are an incredibly
efficient level of government when it comes to dispatching
resources. In the event of a catastrophic hurricane like
Hurricane Ian, those resources become strained, though, very
quickly and very limited. And this is where we look to our
Federal partners for assistance in those times of need.
However, there were many moments across many different
agencies where the regulatory hurdles, miscommunication, and
burdensome administrative requirements were too big and too
rigid to attend to the community's needs. What was needed at
that time was urgency and flexibility.
In conclusion, I would like to thank you all for taking the
time to come to our community today. I would like to thank our
Federal delegation, especially Representative Byron Donalds,
who helped us make today's event possible.
Representative Donalds, along with Representative Steube,
Senators Marco Rubio and Senators Rick Scott and their staff
have played a critical role in supporting our community through
this and assisting us both before and after the storm. And we
are grateful they are here with us for the long haul.
Thank you. That concludes my time.
Mr. Sessions. Sir, thank you very much. Most appreciative
and in line with our respect for our Federal partners----
Mr. Hamman. Thank you, sir.
Mr. Sessions [continuing]. The work that was done by local
people; and the prayers, which I would say I hope you know came
from across this country, just as they are going to Hawaii
today. And we believe that we are one Nation under God, and I
know you have felt that very closely in the association that
you have, the success of where you stand today.
Thank you very much. Appreciate it.
Mr. Hamman. Yes, sir.
Mr. Sessions. Mayor Anderson, welcome. We are delighted
that you are here. Gentleman is recognized.
STATEMENT OF THE HONORABLE KEVIN ANDERSON
MAYOR
FORT MYERS, FL
Mr. Anderson. Thank you very much. I would also like to
thank each and every one of you for being here today and taking
the time to follow up on the response, a response that played--
it is playing a critical role in our recovery, albeit not
perfect at times.
But I would also like to echo Commissioner Hamman in
recognizing Congressman Donalds. I mean, I think it was within
12 hours of the storm landing, his feet were on the ground. He
was in our community, meeting with us, and seeing what needed
to be done.
So, thank you, Congressman, to you and your staff.
I am going to do my best not to repeat what the
Commissioner said, because it is basically the same stuff. What
I do want to say is that, you know, our area, Fort Myers, Lee
County, southwest Florida, we are not just a dot on a map. We
are like every other community in this country. We are
comprised of people and businesses and schools and churches and
all of that that goes together to make a community.
I stood at the door of my balcony--I live in a condo in the
heart of downtown, three blocks from the Caloosahatchee River.
And, fortunately, we are about 15 miles upstream from the Gulf
of Mexico, so we did not suffer like the Barrier Islands and
the beaches did. But I stood there looking at our downtown.
Now, as the Congressman mentioned, I was in law
enforcement, did 24 years in Fort Myers. I know what downtown
was like when I started as a police officer. It was blighted.
We did not even like going down there after dark. That is how
bad it was.
Now it is a very vibrant, active part of our community. And
I stood there, and I watched the waters come in from the river
to the point where it covered a FedEx box. And I am thinking--I
still had the television on. I am listening to the weather, and
they are saying twice as much water is going to come in on the
back side of this storm. And I stood there helpless thinking,
what is this going to do to our downtown, the city, and the
region for that fact? Fortunately, when the eye passed, the
water receded, and so we only--most places that got it the
worst had about 4 feet of water.
The very next morning at sunrise, the people--the people of
southwest Florida are strong and resilient. They were back in
their businesses cleaning things out. In fact, the owner of the
downtown House of Pizza came in at midnight, stayed there all
night long. He was open on Thursday, had a line around the
block, 4-hour wait for a pizza.
But, the people in line waiting, they did not complain.
They were all happy to be able to get a hot pizza. And that got
the rest of the businesses downtown clearing their businesses
out, which meant the debris piled up quickly. And we are
talking food, construction, and demolition materials, garbage,
and all of that, which pose a real safety and health issue. Not
only that, but a psychological issue.
Think about you coming by your business or you coming by
your house, and there on the side of the road is your life,
your memories, your keepsakes, antiques, all kinds of things
just piled up there as trash. It has a real psychological
effect. So, that was our first challenge, getting the OK to
pick up the debris.
The state of Florida told us, do not wait on the Federal
Government; get going. And that made all the difference in the
world. We spent several days cleaning up our downtown. And that
really, I think, was a catalyst for a great recovery, because
it motivated people, showing them, hey, it was a bad hit, we
were knocked down. We were not knocked out. We were rising from
the rubble. We were rebuilding already.
And we are very thankful to the Federal Government and all
the agencies that showed up. But I must sum it up in one little
phrase. And I think--and this is not meaning to be
disrespectful to the gentleman from FEMA, but process versus
purpose. All of the Federal agencies have great processes, but
it prevents them, at times, from fulfilling the purpose.
And, while their process is designed to help those who have
been displaced from their home, lost a loved one, lost their
business, whatever it may be, it often prevents them from
fulfilling that purpose. And who is stuck there is those who
are suffering the most.
Thank you.
Mr. Sessions. Mr. Mayor, thank you very much.
Mr. Goss, we are delighted that you are here. I want to
thank you for taking time to come renew your ideas with me last
night and with our staff. And we are delighted that you are
here.
And the distinguished gentleman is recognized.
STATEMENT OF CHAUNCEY GOSS
RESIDENT
SANIBEL, FL
Mr. Goss. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.
I did talk to my father this morning, and he sends his
regards. I would also like to thank Mr. Edwards for making the
trip from North Carolina, Mr. Biggs for making the trip from
the southwest. I know it is still hot here, but it is a
different heat.
And, Mr. Donalds, what you have done for this community is
unbelievable. I know no one signs up to be a Congressman for a
hurricane, but you have been a phenomenal Congressman for a
hurricane. So, thank you for all you have done. And thank you
all for being here and letting us speak.
I am going to be speaking a little bit differently than--
than my colleagues here, because I am speaking not an elected
official in any manner, but a consumer. I am a sample size of
one, but I do talk to a lot of my neighbors, and I found out
that the experience I have is not my experience alone.
I have been here for about 50 years--my mom and dad moved
down here in 1970--and grew up on Sanibel. And, you know,
hurricanes are always in your mind. You always know they are
there, and you--you evacuate, you do what you are supposed to
do, but you never really think it is going to happen to you.
So, on September 28, my family and I, we did what we were
supposed to do. We evacuated, and we lost everything we had
except for what we had in the car. Luckily, we evacuated, and
everyone is fine. So, we have what is most important to us,
which is our health. And, you know, some people did not make
it. So, I--we were fortunate.
But you do not ever think it is going to happen to you, and
then, all of a sudden, you are homeless. And you go, OK, now
what do I do? I do not have a house. I have what I had in the
car. I did not really pack what I needed for not having a
house, for my decisions tomorrow, for what I am going to be
doing. So, you scramble around. You do the best you can.
For us, we had--we were lucky. We had some relatives on the
East Coast who had an apartment that we could use. So, we were
driving back and forth there. It was an 8-hour roundtrip drive,
which was not ideal, but it was OK. And then, you know, we
could not even get to Sanibel for a while until the Governor
figured out really quickly how to open the bridge up, which we
are really grateful to Governor DeSantis for making that
happen, because, prior to that happening, we had to take a
boat.
And so, it was very hard to get over to the island, which
was stressful, because our--you know, our house, everything we
owned is over there. And, meanwhile, you have got your
insurance company sort of whispering in your ear, well, if you
do not get over there and start mitigating, we cannot pay you
anything. So, you are going, well, gee, I cannot even get
there, but you find a friend with a boat, and you go over
there, and you start mucking the house out and do the best you
can, taking everything you can to the curb. And it is just
really tough. It was tough.
And so, the housing was an issue for us. And we lost a lot
of hotels stock, which makes sense, because a lot of hotels are
on the coast. And we had a lot of people come in. There was a
lot of demand, because all of a sudden, you have people
displaced, and then you have emergency workers coming in who
are going to help you out. And you have got contractors coming
in who are going to help you out.
So, there was this weird disconnect on supply and demand on
housing. So, we were--you know, I thought let us go to FEMA,
and we will sign up and see what happens there from a housing
disaster assistance standpoint. This is, you know, what they do
for a living. Let us see how they do.
So, we signed up. It was very easy to do. Getting signed up
with FEMA is easy. That process was not a problem. I talked to
them. They said, yes, you absolutely qualify for housing. We
would love to put you in a hotel. Here, use this number. Go to
this website, and, when you plug this number in, it will tell
you, you know, where the hotels are available.
So, we did that. And the first day I did that, the nearest
hotel room was in Alabama. And Alabama is not a close drive to
southwest Florida. And I am not faulting FEMA for that. It
was--you know, I was asking for the same day or the next day. I
said, OK, I will give them a break on that.
So, I said, how about next week? Maybe I can find a hotel
room, so I do not have to drive back and forth. And the nearest
hotel room was in Brooksville, which Brooksville is--it is not
that--it is not Alabama, but it is still not close. So clearly
there was a hotel problem here in southwest Florida.
So I thought, let us see if I can get into a trailer,
because I know that FEMA has got a trailer program. So, I
signed up for the trailer program, and I was told, yes, you
qualify.
I said, great, I qualify.
And they said--this is the week before Thanksgiving, so I
was really excited about that. And I said to my wife, hey, we
are not going to have to make this trip anymore. We are going
to have a trailer.
And so, on December 8, someone came out to my house. They
measured my driveway. They put a red line on it, and they said,
here is where your trailer is going to go.
And I said, hey, do you think I can be in, you know, by the
holidays? This is December 8.
And he said, yes, that is probably doable.
So, I was pretty excited about that. Holidays came and
went, and January came and went, and February came and went,
and March came and went, and still no trailer.
So, I got a call in late March, and they said, well, yes,
we can put a trailer in now, but you are going to have to have
it out by hurricane season, and we cannot put it in until
April.
So, I said, that's not that helpful, but thank you anyway.
So, I said, take my name off the trailer list.
During that process in that 4-month time when I talked to
FEMA, I would go to the disaster assistance center, which they
were really--it was really nice. They set it up on Sanibel at
the church. And it had, you know, washer, dryer. It had
bathrooms. It was--it was a good--a shower. So, it was a good
facility for us living on the island to be able to use.
And I went to the FEMA folks there, and I said, hey, what's
going on with the trailer program? And they said, well, just
call this 1-800 number.
I was like, what? You are sitting here. Why don't you give
me an answer. And I would never get an answer. And I asked if
they would call the 1-800 number with me, and, the answer was
no.
So, I said, OK, fine.
I called the 1-800 number many, many, many times, and I
left many, many, many messages, and never got a response. So,
it was not a good process. And it was just disappointing that
FEMA, you know, could not figure out that--you know, this is
one of their jobs to do quick, nimble, temporary housing. I was
sort of surprised and disappointed that they could not figure
that one out.
And they offered also a little bit of false hope, and that
is another thing. You know, we had all just been through this
experience, and there is a little bit of PTSD, and everyone is
just trying to get through the next day. So, you latch on to
something. When someone says, yes, we are going to do this for
you, you sort of latch onto it.
And you say, great, I cannot wait for that.
And then, when it does not happen, you go, oh, man, here we
go again.
So, I also had the opportunity to work with the Small
Business Administration. They reached out, and they asked if I
wanted a loan.
And I said, yes, absolutely.
And they were really good in the--I think we were alluding
to earlier--Mr. Donalds was--I was approved for a loan very
quickly. I think it was within a week. I submitted my paperwork
within a week. It was then over the next 4 months that I
provided pages and pages and pages of material to the Small
Business Administration.
Mr. Goss. And we went back and forth and back and forth,
and at one point I had a really interesting dialog with them
where I had been taking pictures of the documents they needed
because that was--with my phone because that was the only way I
could do it because I lost my office and everything I owned in
my office. I had a laptop.
And so, I had been taking pictures, and they said, well,
you cannot take pictures of these documents because they need
to be PDFs. And I said, OK, I have got a kid. That kid is going
to have to figure out how to make that picture into a PDF,
because kids are smart. So, he made my pictures into PDFs, and
I sent that to them, and they said, No, it is still a picture.
And I said, well, what is the difference between a scanner, a
scanned PDF and a picture that is a PDF? And they said, we do
not know, but the lawyers say we cannot use it.
So, I went to the office on Sanibel, and I said, hey, this
is the deal I am getting. I have been talking to the fourth
different person up in D.C. or wherever. Can you help me out
with this? Do you have a scanner here? And they said, yes, we
have got a scanner sitting right over there, but, no, we cannot
scan it for you. I said, why? They said, we do not know. We
just cannot. That is not something we are allowed to do.
So, I said, Is there any way you can help me with this
loan? And they said, no. I said, but you work for SBA. And they
said, yes. I said, well, why you are here?
And I may have started to get a little bit heated, and at
that point I said I probably just ought to leave now because I
was so frustrated.
I then was even more frustrated when I found out my loan
amount, which initially had been approved at $205,000 was
reduced to $40,000 because subsequently, I had been paid some
insurance. So, I had gotten some of my flood insurance, and
then SBA said, well, since you got flood insurance, you do not
need our money. And I said, well, no, I do. I need both because
I told you that. I need both because I need them combined. And
they said, well, you're going to get $40,000. I said, never
mind. I'll take the $25. So, 4 months later I get the $25,000.
This was an incredibly, incredibly frustrating experience.
I have talked to many people about SBA, and I do not know
anyone who actually has a loan from SBA. It is just amazing how
many people applied and said the process absolutely threw us
off and we gave up. And that is commercial businesses on the
island, and that is friends of mine who were trying to get them
to rebuild their home.
So, that process is clearly broken and needs someone to
look into it.
So, I think that my takeaway--and I know I have gone on too
long here, Chairman. I am sorry. I think that--you know, I do
not want to sound ungrateful at all, because I am not. I know
these two agencies have done a tremendous amount of work, and I
am really, really grateful they are here in our communities.
They are still here in our communities. They are here with HUD,
and I really appreciate that.
But my takeaway is that the senior leadership at FEMA and
SBA, they need to do more than just putting boots on the ground
here. We need to--and this may sound pejorative, but you need
to put brains on the ground. You have got to put some people
who can make some decisions so that it is not just a ticket
taker sitting in an office somewhere saying, you know, I am
logging hours. And while I am logging those hours, I am also
sucking up a hotel room, and I am also sucking up water and all
the other things that people in our community need.
So, if that person is not what I would call a Swiss Army
knife, if they cannot do lots of things, do not have them here.
Do what the Department of Defense does. Put some of your
general officers on the battlefield. Let them make decisions so
that you do not have these weird 4-month lags between a request
and then an action, because that--you know, these are agencies
that are supposed to be nimble, by their definition, with
disaster in the title.
So, that would sort of be my takeaway. So, I hope that you
and I hope maybe even you get GAO involved with this to take a
look at some of the metrics that were mentioned earlier. So,
let us take a look at, you know, what is the timeline you think
is right as a Congress, and then have GAO match that up and
say, well, OK, is that about right? Is this what these agencies
have been doing? And if not, why not? And see if they can get
to an answer, because I think that this is really all about
lessons learned.
And so, I really thank you for being here, and that
concludes my testimony.
Mr. Sessions. The gentleman yields back his time.
I want to thank each of the panel for their professional
presentation.
The gentleman, Mr. Donalds, is recognized.
Mr. Donalds. Thank you, Chairman. And Chairman, I do want
to thank you for your indulgence with respect to the clock for
all the witnesses. Like the Chairman, I am not a big fan of the
5 minutes, and sometimes you need just a little bit more time
to expound. So, I thank the Chairman for that.
Also, Chairman, I do want to recognize the Mayor of Fort
Myers Beach who is in the room with us today, Mr. Dan Allers.
He is here. Dan, it is good to see you, and thank you for your
job in Fort Myers Beach, really taking a major leadership role
there in having to rebuild a town. So, I appreciate you there.
Chairman, for the record, I want to introduce into the
record an article by CNN dated February 15, 2023, titled ``FEMA
Delays Leave Many Hurricane Ian Victims Exasperated Nearly 5
Months After the Disastrous Storm.''
Mr. Sessions. Without objection, that will be entered into
the record.
Mr. Donalds. Mr. Chairman, the reason why I want to enter
that article into the record is because that article is
indicative of the testimony of Mr. Goss where there are several
accounts from local residents who went through the process with
FEMA to try to get into the housing program, and were either
met with the delays of, yes, we can outline your lot, and here
is where the trailer will be. Or you are not in a specific--you
are in a--this flood zone is not allowed under our rules, so we
are going to have to put you into a hotel. And then the hotel
allotments were 100 miles away, 200 miles away, 300 miles away,
which really led to a level of just frustration by local
residents.
Mr. Goss, real quick, a question to you. Having gone
through this process personally, I want you to expand a little
bit on your thought process around putting essentially
decision-makers on the ground who can effectively make these
decisions. And I know you have experience with the Federal
Government and working in tandem with it. What would your
primary recommendation be around it? How would you
conceptualize that so that you can have people make the
decisions that need to happen right there when it needs to
occur?
Mr. Goss. Mr. Chairman, am I recognized?
Mr. Sessions. The gentleman is recognized----
Mr. Goss. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Sessions [continuing]. In this question period, yes,
sir.
Mr. Goss. Thank you, sir.
Mr. Donalds, that is a great question, and I have thought
about it a little bit. I think that there is two ways. One is
you would put a decision-maker on the ground, whether that is
an SES level or an assistant secretary level, somebody pretty
high up. Take them out of the comfortable area of inside the
Beltway and put them here so that when somebody like me comes
and says, look, my neighbor has not--you know, he is living in
his garage.
You cannot tell me that living in that garage is safer than
putting a trailer on his lot. There is just no way. The guy is
94 years old. He has not had a shower in 4 months. That is not
safe. So, somebody needs to be here to say you are absolutely
right. We are going to put a trailer here tomorrow.
Then there needs to be someone on the back end of that
who--and I can think of this for SBA--who is looking at the
metrics and saying, OK, I have had 5,000 people apply, and we
have only issued four loans, or something to just keep things
moving. Who is making sure that stuff is moving along? Because
I do not get the feeling anyone is doing that.
Mr. Donalds. I appreciate that. Thank you for that.
Mr. Hamman, to you. You mentioned in your testimony
frustration around the inspection process with FEMA. It is
actually interesting that Mr. Aller is sitting over your
shoulder, as I look at him. I know that the city of Fort Myers
Beach is still operating in a trailer while they are waiting
for a FEMA inspection to occur for them to actually go through
the process of rehabbing the city of Fort Myers' actual
building so they can continue their business.
Can you speak to the delays and the concerns from the
county level in conjunction with FEMA around the inspection
process? And what is it specifically that Lee County is looking
to see with respect to the inspection process?
Mr. Hamman. Thank you very much for the question,
Congressman.
Yes, that is a perfect example of what we are seeing at the
county level as well. Our team, our administrative team at the
county does not have the confidence to fix or repair anything
right now related to county facilities or county infrastructure
because until it gets an inspection by FEMA, they are risking
the reimbursement that could come from making those repairs.
And this, with a $300 million bill coming due to Lee
County, is more than our residents could bear on their own, and
so we need that FEMA reimbursement.
So many residents call us daily. Why haven't you torn down
the restrooms at Fort Myers Beach, at Lynn Hall Park that look
terrible? We are told we are not even allowed to touch them. If
we touch them, if we try to clean them, we are risking
reimbursement and would not be paid back for the repairs that
we would need to make for that.
Similar situations happen with Federal Highway Safety
Administration in regards to our traffic lights. We have many
traffic lights that are still mangled throughout the county,
and those we were also told cannot touch them until they have
been inspected.
And so, residents do not understand why broken
infrastructure and potentially dangerous situations continue to
exist months after the storm.
Mr. Donalds. Thank you so much.
Chairman, I yield back.
Mr. Sessions. Thank you very much.
The gentleman, Mr. Biggs, is recognized.
Mr. Biggs. Thanks, Mr. Chairman. Thank you all for being
here today.
So, my initial line of questions was going to be--as we
have seen, this has gone on for 10 months, and you have all
participated in interactions with FEMA and SBA and HUD, et
cetera. My question was going to be--because I really want to--
and I guess I am going to ask it anyway, but I am anticipating
what the answer--I should not anticipate what the answer is
going to be. I will just ask the question.
Have you seen improvement in processing, communication, et
cetera? And your answer, Mr. Hamman, Mr. Goss, indicates maybe
not. But I want to know if from day one when we are still in
chaos and trying to bring order to this situation, has there
been improvement in the process itself to, as the Mayor said,
to achieve the purpose?
So, I guess that is my question. Have lessons been learned?
Has there been evolution along the way to make this better? Or
are we still--you still experiencing the same problems today,
maybe a different flavor than you were experiencing 8, 9 months
ago?
Mr. Hamman.
Mr. Hamman. Thank you, Congressman.
There have been situations that have been remedied thanks
to reaching out to our Member of Congress and other members of
the Florida delegation. For instance, I mentioned that letter
questioning the values of our local property appraiser. With
some help from our Florida delegation, that situation was then
walked back after a couple weeks in a meeting to offer
clarification to FEMA.
There are also now more inspectors on the ground, thanks
again to the pressure that was brought by the Florida
delegation, but it took help from our member and our
representative to make that happen.
So, I can say that I, as a policymaker, am not in the day-
to-day workings in the emergency operations center with the
FEMA partners. We are grateful that they are here and helping
us out, but certainly it has taken a lot of extra help to get
the process moving in the direction we needed it to.
Mr. Biggs. Thank you.
And Mayor, any comment on that?
Mr. Anderson. There was comment during the last panel about
every hurricane is different, every disaster is different. You
know, I can tell you every traffic stop I made, every crime
scene I worked, every critical incident I handled was
different, but yet the same. The basics were there. And I think
that is what is being missed is they come in--and we are very
thankful for the response, but yet the workers come in, and it
is almost like they are starting over.
Like the project manager that was assigned to the city.
This was one of her first disasters, and it was a disaster of
this magnitude that she is getting her feet wet, and she could
not handle it. Then the person who replaced her was that person
with the process; was not really focused on the purpose.
So, I echo again the Commissioner. It was only through
pressure and the help we received from elected officials
putting the pressure on those agencies.
Mr. Biggs. Thank you.
Mr. Goss.
Mr. Goss. Yes, I think that, honestly, most of the people I
deal with and talk to have probably given up by now and have
gone to conventional lending or--and have gone to the rental
market or figured something else out and just said, look, I am
not going to deal with either FEMA for housing or SBA for
loans. We are going to figure this out.
Because initially, they are the only ones around, and you
need them really badly because everyone else is sort of out of
business. But then everyone else comes back into business. So,
now there is a little bit of a rental market. Now, you know, 10
months, 11 months later, there is conventional lending. So, I
think that the need for it is not as bad. I think the initial
need is when they really need to be there.
Mr. Biggs. So, at the beginning.
And I was fascinated by the stories. That was not an
anecdote, the 94-year-old gentleman living in his garage next
to you?
Mr. Goss. That is not an anecdote.
Mr. Biggs. OK.
Mr. Goss. Not next to me, but on the island.
Mr. Biggs. OK.
So, were you proactively contacted at all by FEMA or other
agencies, or did you initiate contact?
Mr. Goss. They were pretty good about calling me on the
phone, which was always--you know, and going through the whole
trailer thing, you know, it was how many people are you? You
know, what do you need? And I explained it to them. And then
once they said you are approved, I never heard from them again.
And that was the interesting thing. I mean, generally, they
were pretty good.
Same with the SBA. They would call and I talked to lots and
lots of people about lots and lots of things, but nothing ever
happened.
Mr. Biggs. So, in the process, I guess maybe this is where
I should have started, but did you find that you--like, you
filled out the application. You think you are done. And then
you were supplementing. Were you going through a process where
it was--where it almost was evolving?
Mr. Goss. Without a doubt. Yes, there was definitely an
evolution of the process. With SBA, it was, you know, you
reached one milestone and then there is another milestone and
then there is another milestone, and it is with a different
person who did not understand the last milestone.
Mr. Biggs. Mr. Chairman, my time is up. I yield back.
Mr. Sessions. The gentleman yields back his time.
The gentleman from North Carolina, Mr. Edwards, is
recognized.
Mr. Edwards. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
One thing that is clear to me in being with all of you this
afternoon is when I think of the folks that say we are all
defined by how we react and how we step up under tough
circumstances, that the panelists and Mr. Donalds have
certainly stepped up, and I have a great deal of admiration for
how you have defined yourself and helped this community. I just
want to say that.
Mr. Hamman, you mentioned in your opening comments that
these agencies often blamed your own local land use code as
obstacles to help bring relief. Can you give us some examples?
Mr. Hamman. The codes were mainly related to our adoption
of the flood maps and adoption of several policies that made
our residents in Lee County eligible to receive discounts under
the national flood insurance program. So, we felt like these
are their regulations that they instructed us to adopt if we
wanted our residents to be eligible for discounts under the
flood insurance program, but yet, now they were holding them
against us saying, no, those are why we cannot put the trailers
there either.
So, it was really a hard position for us to be in, and it
did feel like at many times along the way--you know, we were
facing the possibility of losing our discounts in the flood
insurance program if we were to amend these codes in order to
make things more eligible for trailer placement in flood zones.
But, you know, at the bottom--at the end of the day, the
bottom line was, you know, you have a person who is either
sleeping in a tent, sleeping in their car, some even, according
to news reports, sleeping under a bridge near Fort Myers Beach
who needed a home and a place. And like we said earlier, they
would be much safer in a trailer in their driveway than they
would in their car.
Mr. Edwards. And so, I cannot help but think, because we
have heard similar examples of regulation getting in the way,
for example, environmental impact and that sort of thing. Under
such dire circumstances, would it be proper for Congress to say
all land code use goes away, all environmental rules go away?
The top priority should be to get folks into a sheltered
situation. What would be the practicality?
Mr. Hamman. I think, you know, that would be very
appropriate, sir. When you are making policy decisions, you are
always making tradeoffs, right, and I think if you look at the
facts that were on the ground at the time in the immediate
aftermath of a storm where you had folks who were waiting for
months, sleeping in cars or sleeping in their driveways, I
think those folks needed shelter more than they needed
environmental regulation at that time.
And so, I think if you say yes to shelter, you may have to
say no to environmental regulation at that time, but that is a
good tradeoff for the benefit of the people who needed it in
that situation.
Mr. Edwards. Thank you for that. I was hoping that would be
your response.
You also mentioned in your opening comments that you
thought that it would be helpful to not just hear the stories
of the calvary coming, but being able to see proof that funds
had been disbursed. What type of proof would have solved that,
in your mind, through this catastrophe?
Mr. Hamman. Sir, I gained that experience in my time
serving as the President and CEO of the Chamber of Commerce
here locally. Many of the chambers, there are multiple in our
county, came together to survey our membership to ask them had
they been approved for a loan and, if they had been approved,
had they received funds. And none of us could find a business
that had received any funds at that point, and this was months
after landfall.
And so, my question back to the Agency was, great, you have
told me you approved this much money. Approval is one word. How
about disbursed? That is a different word. How much money is in
the hands of people? And they would not provide that metric to
me.
And I think as an organization that would strive for
transparency, you would want to be able to both tout we have
approved this much, and this much now is actually in people's
hands. It is a simple number that I assume they probably have
internally.
Mr. Edwards. Thank you.
Mr. Anderson, in your opening comments, you mentioned that
you felt that there was more of a quest for process over
purpose. Can you give us some examples of processes that got in
the way of the purpose?
Mr. Anderson. Real simply, debris pickup. Not being able to
pick up debris until we were told, go, ahead and pull the
trigger, and meanwhile it is piling up. Like I mentioned
earlier, it is the safety and health issues. In some cases, it
is blocking roadways. So, I do not know why the process
required us to wait.
And then, I do not know if you are aware, but every trailer
we had out there picking up debris had to have a monitor
assigned to it to the tune of $1,500 a week. Follow the truck
to make sure if they are picking up horticulture, that is what
went in the truck. Then when they got to the dumpsite, they are
paying another monitor in a tower to look down and say, OK,
that is horticulture; it goes over there in that pile. And it
just slows up the process. Although, this time the debris
pickup went a lot quicker than in the past, but it is little
things like that.
And, you know, the inspections is another one. I do not
understand why FEMA cannot tap into the expertise on the local
level and pre-certify people from the city, from the county to
be inspectors that the minute that there is an emergency
declared, they take off their local government cap, they put on
their FEMA cap, and they go to work for FEMA, and they can
start that process. They know the local area. They know the
codes. They know everything that needs to be known that
somebody coming from out of town does not know.
Mr. Edwards. That is a great suggestion.
Mr. Chair, I see my time has expired, so I yield. Thank
you.
Mr. Sessions. The gentleman yields back his time.
I will move to the gentleman's second round, Mr. Donalds.
Mr. Donalds. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. It is going to be a
lighter round this time.
Mr. Goss, I want to come to you. I know in your service
capacity you have served as a Commissioner for the Southwest
Florida Water Management District, appointed by Governor
DeSantis. There was a previous line of questioning around the
need to just, in a disaster scenario, being able to move around
some of the environmental and other statutory codes and
regulations that, you know, state, local, and Federal
Governments have.
In your capacity in that role--and this is--I do not know
what the answer is. So, I am really interested to know your
view on that because I think one of the things we have been
able to digest through this hearing and then really going
through post disaster is trying to find ways to blow through
all the roadblocks to just get people the help that they need
at that time period and then we can figure out that stuff on
the back end.
So, you know, from your capacity, having served in that
role, what is your view of that?
Mr. Goss. My personal view is that life safety comes first,
always, and it has to, and if there is a rule there that is put
in for nonemergency times, it may need to be waived for an
emergency time.
I do not see trailers and environment actually even coming
into the same category honestly because I do not see how
putting a trailer in your driveway is an environmental issue. I
mean, to me that's not. You know, maybe--I do not know what
kind of issue it is.
Again, that is more of a safety issue for me, is making
sure someone has got a place to live. I would not call that an
environmental concern.
Mr. Donalds. OK. I appreciate that.
And actually, I appreciate my colleague from North Carolina
broaching that topic. That is why sometimes I think, you know,
smaller hearings where Members and witnesses kind of go back
and forth reveal some good clarifying points that, you know, we
have to go back and refine with staff and work through those
issues, but I think it is something to explore.
Mr. Hamman, real quick to you. Obviously, in your position
with the County Commission here in Lee County, you are at the
hub of all of this interchange. Can you describe that workflow
between local, state, Federal, week one post storm, 6 months
post storm, and now? And kind of describe what that has been
like.
Mr. Hamman. Thank you very much for the question,
Congressman.
Week one post storm was an amazing time. Everybody came to
town and said, we are here and we are ready to help. And it was
actually an effort just to try and coordinate everybody.
But as I mentioned in my earlier testimony, FEMA did stage
folks here internally in our emergency operation center pre
landfall. That gold incident management team that was imbedded
within days of landfall, that did work well, and our team
complemented that, and the direct line to our Federal partners
was a good one.
The problem then, though, where things broke down was, I
think as we talked about, was just when we asked about a
situation, where to put the trailers, you know, the answer was
not we have a shortage of trailers, so we cannot provide them.
The answer was we need to check the rule book and, uh-oh, we
have checked it, and we just cannot figure out where to put
them because of the rules. And that rigidity and inflexibility
was the problem.
So, we did have a team that was activated in the emergency
operation center for a good, it felt like, 60 days after the
storm. I mean, people were--it was an all-hands-on-deck
scenario.
The state level was fantastic. I left that out, but Kevin
Guthrie, the Florida Department of Emergency Management
manager, or Director, was here in town imbedded with us, slept
here, lived here, was guiding the state efforts. And the fact
that we had that kind of direct access to an authority figure,
literally the leader of the Department of Emergency Management,
he could make those quick decisions on the ground based on the
facts and circumstances that he saw.
I think certainly, we would have benefited from a decision-
maker of that authority or caliber from the Federal side as
well to help us, again, improvise, because in an emergency
situation, it is not clean. It is a wrecked situation. So, the
rules might not necessarily apply anymore because the structure
that the rules were built for might not even be in existence
anymore. So, you needed that local decision-making authority.
Mr. Donalds. And I will say I do agree with you there with
respect to Director Guthrie, you know, his work here was
exemplary, and I want to state that for the record.
Last thing, Chairman, and I will leave it at this. I think
one of the things around SBA that--having had time to think
through disaster recovery, the disaster recovery loan problem,
which was very, very different from the PPP loan program under
the COVID-19 emergency era, and although, you know, my time on
SBA--my time on Small Business Committee, there are--there were
issues with fraud in the PPP program. Definitely the EIDL
program, which I would say the EIDL program is much more
reminiscent of the SBA disaster recovery program where it is
all administered by SBA.
I think one of the reasons why PPP, from a disbursement
perspective, was much more fluid for people trying to get aid
is because you had the banking system actually going through
their due diligence through the normal loan process, and those
loans were essentially funded by the Federal Government. So,
the banking system was a conduit to recovery dollars.
And if there was something to look at with SBA's disaster
loan recovery program in the future, it might be taking some of
the lessons learned from PPP and augmenting that program for
specific communities and specific parts of the country that go
through disaster.
With that, I yield.
Mr. Sessions. The gentleman yields back his time.
The gentleman from Arizona, Mr. Biggs.
Mr. Biggs. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
My question is a request of you and Mr. Donalds. Mr.
Donalds submitted documents in the record, both for panel one
and two. I would like him to, if you can, make them available
to all of us so we all get a copy of those, please.
Mr. Donalds. Will do. Consider it done.
Mr. Biggs. I yield back.
Mr. Sessions. The gentleman yields back the time.
The gentleman from North Carolina, Mr. Edwards, you are
recognized, sir.
Mr. Edwards. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Mr. Chair, I have a question of you. As I hear the
responses from these gentlemen, it occurs to me that most of us
here on this stage are probably coming up with some ideas of
some things that we can do in Congress to help improve this
process, which I know was Mr. Donalds' intent. And we all know
or believe to get things done in Congress, we have to work
across the aisle. It strikes me, we do not have anyone up here
from across the aisle.
I am just curious, was everyone invited? Or why do we not
have anyone else up here with us?
Mr. Sessions. Yes, sir, and I will address that, and I
think it is most important that my Members know this and each
of you, as elected officials, and our audience. More than a
month out, we gathered our ideas together about this, including
the timing, and we chose not to do it later in case there
really is another hurricane.
But my colleagues, your colleagues on the Democratic side
were advised. I spoke directly to Mr. Mfume about that a month
out. And I would say this to you, that I believe that our
strength of character between Mr. Mfume and his Ranking Member
side, I will involve him in this. None of their Members had the
ability or chose not to be here today.
But I would hope that we would not, nor would anyone think,
No. 1, they were not invited; No. 2, they were not given the
time or the interest; but No. 3, or 4, I believe there is
interest on their side to hear directly back about the
testimony, about the needs of Congress to effectively work
together.
And so, I will provide feedback not only to this panel but
also panel one to know that we intend to fully, I do, our panel
does and this Administration, I would hope, to work with our
Democratic colleagues who are equal Members as we are. They
just happen to be in the Minority.
But I would say to the people who are gathered here, I
would like for you not to take that as a negative. They just
were not able to do this, and Mr. Mfume has told me that he
will be very pleased to invest the time and work together with
us.
I thank the gentleman for his question. I apologize for not
offering that explanation upfront.
Mr. Edwards. I would just add that I personally find it
very impactful to be here in person to hear the stories from
these folks that are affected, and I would have thought that
our friends on the other side of the aisle would find it
equally impactful.
Thank you. I yield back.
Mr. Sessions. The gentleman yields back his time.
I want to thank the Members of Congress who have taken time
to be here. We have another task. We intend to go out and do an
onsite review. We have been invited to do that, and we are
going to accept that.
In terms of my offering feedback to each of you, I want to
say this, that this could happen to any Member of Congress, but
it happened here, and that the learning and the consideration
about what FEMA has learned, SBA, HUD must come together a
little bit better. And we will probably, within a short period
of time, offer our questions and our recommendations. We will,
about that same time, hope to receive back explanations from
what I would call the Administration.
But we are not going to let this go. And I looked at Mr.
Donalds a few minutes ago and said I am not saying we are going
to have a hearing, but I am coming back, and I am going to sit
down, and we are going to make sure that we do our after-report
because I believe my time that I spent in the free enterprise
system always included not only a plan going in but the plan
going out and then how you did.
So, on behalf of the U.S. Congress, my colleagues, all my
colleagues, I want to say thank you to each of you for being
here. In particular, I want to say today that we have got at
least four members of law enforcement, the men and women who
wear the uniform, who have the responsibility, and I want to
thank them for taking the time to be here today.
And for our friends in the media, I would hope that the
story that is told is one that we came here for, an intended
reason. We have heard the stories, and we intend to
forthrightly work with this government, this Administration,
with our colleagues, and we intend to make things a little bit
better.
And for the people of this community, I want you to know
that it could have happened anywhere. It happened to you. Our
prayers are still with you, and we heard the story today and
know what we need to do. So, I want to thank each of you that
are in this room very much.
This concludes our hearing of the Subcommittee.
[Whereupon, at 12:50 p.m., the Subcommittee was adjourned.]